>> Live from San Diego California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're at the end of three days of wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week has been John Troyer, and we figured no better way to cap our coverage than bring on a CUBE alumni who has likely educated more people about containers and Kubernetes, you know, may be second only to the CNCF. So, Nigel Poulton now the head of content at msb.com. Nigel, pleasure to see you and thanks for coming back on the program. >> Honestly gents, the pleasure is all mine, as always. >> All right, so Nigel, first of all I'd love to get your just gestalt of the week. You know, take away, what's the energy. You know, how is was this community doing. >> Yeah, so it's the end of the week and my brain is a mixture of fried and about to explode, okay. Which i think is a good thing. That's what you want at the end of a conference, right. But I think if we can dial it back to the first day at that opening keynote, something that really grabbed me at the time and has been sort of a theme for me throughout the conference, is when they asked, can you raise your hand if this is your first KubeCon, and it's a room of 8,000 people, and I don't have the data at hand right, but I'm sat there, I've got my brother on this side, it's his first ever KubeCon, and he kind of goes like this, and then he realizes that nearly everybody around us has got their hands up, so he's kind of like, whoa yeah, I feel like I'm on the in the in-crowd now. And I think from the people that I've spoken to it seems to be that the community is maturing, the conference or the event itself is maturing, and that starts to bring in kind of a different crowd, and a new crowd. People that are not necessarily building Kubernetes or building projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, but looking to bring it into their organizations to run their own applications. >> Yeah, no absolutely. You know, the rough number I heard was somewhere two-thirds to three-quarters of that room were new. >> Nigel: I can believe that. >> 12,000 here in attendance, right. There were 8,000 here last year. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> You think about the, you know, somebody, oh I sent somebody this year, I sent somebody different the next year, and all the new people. So, you know, Nigel, luckily that keeps you busy, because there is something I've said for a long, long, time is there is always a need for that introductory and then how do I get started and how do I get into here, and luckily the the ecosystem and all the projects and everything, somebody could pick that up in five or 10 minutes if they'd just put their mind to it, right. >> So I say this a lot of the time, that I feel like we live in the Golden Age of being able to take hold of your own career and learn a technology and make the best of what's available for you. Now we don't live in the day where we used, you know, to learn something new you would have to buy infrastructure. I mean even to learn Windows back in the day, or NetWare or Linux you'd need a couple of dusty old PCs in the corner of your office or your bedroom or something, and it was hard. Whereas now with cloud, with video training, with all the hands-on labs and stuff that are out there, with all of the sessions that you get at events like this, if you're interested in pushing your career forward, not only have you not got an excuse not to do it anymore, but the opportunities are just amazing, right. I feel like we live in such an, I feel like we're living in a exciting time for tech. >> Well Nigel, you do books, said you've done training courses, you have your platform of like a lab platform, msb.com. And one of the challenges in this space is that it is moving so fast, right. Yes, you have, anything's at your fingertips, but. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Kubernetes changes every every quarter. Here at the show, both scale of people's deployments, but also scale of the probably number of projects, and everything has a different name. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> So, how are you, what should people be looking for? How are you changing your curriculum? What are you what are you adding to it, what are you replicating? >> Yeah, so that's super interesting. I think, right, as well, so it's a Golden Age for learning right, but if you're in the technology industry in the sort of areas that we are, right, if you don't love it and if you're not passionate about it, I almost feel like you're in the wrong industry, because you need that passion, and that sort of it's my hobby as well as my job, just to keep up. Like I feel like I spend an unhealthy amount of time in the Cloud Native ecosystem and just trying to keep track of everything that's going on. And all that time that I spend in, I still feel like I'm playing catch-up all the time. So I think you have to adjust your mentality. Like if you thought that you could learn something, a technology or whatever, and be comfortable for five years in your role, then you really need to adjust that. Like just an example, right. So I write, I offer a book as well, and I would love nothing better than to write that book, stick it on a shelf on Amazon and what-have-you and let it be valid for five years. I would love that because it's hard work, but I can't so like I do a six monthly update, but that applies to way more than that. So for your career, you know, if you want to, it sounds cheesy, if you want to rock it in your career, you have got to keep yourself up to date. And it's a race, but I do think that the kind of things were doing with tech now, they're fun things, right. >> Yeah, a little scary, because while we're at this show I hope you kept up with all the Amazon announcements, the Google announcements. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> And everything going, because it is it is non-stop. >> Nigel: It is. >> Out there. Nigel, we last had you on theCUBE two years ago at this show, and at every show for a bunch of shows it seemed like there was a project or a category du jour. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> I don't know that I quite got that this year. There were some really cool things at edge computing. There was the observability, something we spent a bunch of time talking on. But we'd love to just kind of throw it out there as to what you're seeing in the ecosystem, the landscape, some of the areas that are interesting. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Important, and what's growing, what's not. >> Okay, so if I can take the event first off, right, so KubeCon itself. Loads of new people, okay, and when I talk to them I'm getting three answers from them. Like number one, they're like, some people like, I just love it, you know, which is great, and I've loved it and it's an amazing event. Other people are like kind of over awed by it, the size. So I don't know, maybe we should send them to re:Invent and then come back here and then they'll be like, oh yeah, it's not so bad. But the second thing is that some of the sessions are going over the first timers heads. So I'm hoping, and I'm sure it will, that going forward in Amsterdam and Boston next year that we'll start to be able to pitch parts of the conference to that new user base. So that was kind of a theme from speaking to people at the event from me. But a couple of things from the ecosystem, like we talked about service mesh, right, two years ago, and it felt like it was a bit of a buzzword, but everyone was talking about it and it was a real theme, and I don't get that at this conference, but what I do feel from the community in general is that uptake and adoption is actually starting to happen now, and thanks a lot to, well look, Linkerd pretty easy these days, STO is making great strides to being easier to deploy, but I also think that the cloud providers, those hosted cloud providers, really stepping up to the plate, like they did with hosted Kubernetes, you know when it was hard to get Kubernetes for your environment. We're seeing a similar thing with the service mesh. You can spin something up in GKE, Kubernetes cluster, click the box, and I'll have a service mesh, thank you very much. >> Well, it's funny. I think back to Austin, when I talk to the average customer in the show floor and said, "What are you doing?" they were rolling their own. Picking all of the pieces and doing it. When I talk to the average customer here, is, I'm using managed services. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Seems to have matured a lot. Of course, some of the manage public cloud services were brand new or a couple months there. Is that's a general direction you see things going? >> So, yes, but I almost wonder if it will be like cloud in general, right, where there was a big move to the cloud. And I understand why people will want to do hosted Kubernetes and things, 'cause it's easy and you know it gets you. I'm careful that when I use the term production grade, because I know it means different things to different people, but you get something that we can at least loosely turn production grade. >> Yeah, and actually just to be clear, we had a lot of discussions about on-premises, so I guess it's more the managed service rather than the, I'm going to roll all the pieces myself. >> Yeah, but I wonder will we start, and because of price and maybe the ability to tweak the cluster towards your needs and things, whether we might see people taking their first steps on a managed service or a hosted Kubernetes, and then as they scale up then they start to say, well, tell you what we'll start rolling our own, because we're better at doing this now, and then run like, you know, you still have your hosted stuff, but you have some stuff on premises as well, and then we move towards something that's a bit more hybrid. I don't know, but I just wonder if that will become a trend. >> Well Nigel, I mean it's been a busy week. You started off with workshops. I don't know, what did you miss? What's the first, when you go home, back to England, are you going to, and you pop open your browser and start looking at all the session videos and stuff, I don't know, what didn't you get a chance to do here this week? >> So I was kind of, for me it's been the busiest KubeCon I've had and it's robbed me of a lot of sessions, right, and when I remember when I looked at the catalog at the beginning it was like, you know it's one of those conferences where almost every slot there's three things that I want to go to, which is a sign of a good conference. I'm quite interested at the moment in K3s. I actually haven't touched it for a long time, but outside of KubeCon I have had a lot of people talk to me about that, so I will go home and I will hunt down, right, what are the K3s sessions to try and get myself back up to speed, 'cause I know there are other projects that are similar right, but I find it quite fascinating in that it's one of those projects where it started out with like this goal of we'll be for the edge, right, or for IOT or something, and the community are like, we really like it, and actually I want to use it for loads of other things. You have no idea whether it will go on to be like a roaring success, but it. I don't know, so often you have it where a project isn't planned to be something. >> Announcer: Good afternoon attendees. Breakout sessions will begin in 10 minutes. >> But it naturally in the community. >> Announcer: Session locations are listed. >> Take it on and say. >> Announcer: On the noted schedule. >> We're going to do something with it. >> Announcer: On digital signage throughout the venue. >> That wasn't originally planned, yeah. So I'll be looking up K3s as my first thing when I go home, but it is the first thing on a long list, right. >> All right. Nigel, tell us a little bit about, you know, latest things you're doing, msb.com. I know you had your book signing for your book here, had huge lines here. >> Yeah. >> Great to see. So, tell us about what you're doing overall. >> Thank you, yeah. So, I've got a couple of books and I've got a bunch of video training courses out there, and I'm super fortunate that I've reached a lot of people, but a real common theme when I talk to people are like, look, I love your book, I love your video courses, whatever, how do I take that next step, and the answer was always, look, get your hands on as much as possible, okay. And I would send people to like Minikube and to play with Docker or play with Kubernetes and various other solutions, but none of them really seem to be like, a real something that looked and smelled and tasted like production. So I'm working with a start-up at the moment, msb.com, where we have curated learning content. Everybody gets their own fully functioning private free node Kubernetes cluster. Ingress will work, internet-facing load balancers will all work on it, and the idea is that instead of having like a single node development environment on your laptop, which is fine, but you know, you can't really play with scheduling and things like that, then msb.com takes that sort of learning journey to the next level because it's it's a real working cluster, plus we've got this amazing visual dashboard so that when you're deploying stuff and scaling and rolling updates you see it all happening in the browser. And for me as an educator, right, it's sometimes hard for people to connect the dots when you're reading a book or, and I spend hours on like PowerPoint animations and stuff, whereas now in this browser to augment like reading a book, and to augment taking a training video, you can go and get your hands on and have this amazing sort of rich visual experience that really helps you like, sort of, oh I get it now, yeah. >> All right, so Nigel, final question I have for you. I've known you back when we were just a couple of infrastructure guys. You've done phenomenal things. >> Nigel: The glory days. >> With kind of the wave of containers, you're a Docker captain. You know, really well known in the Kubernetes. When you reflect back on something, on kind of this journey we've been on, you look at 12,000 people here, you know Docker has some recent news here, so give us a reflection back on that this journey the whole industry's on. >> Yeah, so I had breakfast with a guy this morning who I wrote my first ever public blog with. He had a blog site and he loaned me some space on his blog site 'cause I didn't even know how to build a blog at the time, and it was a storage blog, yeah, we're talking about EMC and HDS and all that kind of stuff, and I'm having breakfast with him, 14 I think years later in San Diego at KubeCon. And I think, and I don't know if this really answers your question, but I feel like that Kubernetes is almost so, if ubiquitous is the right word or it's so pervasive, and it's so all-encompassing almost, that it is bringing almost the entire community. I don't want to get too carried away with saying this, right, but it is bringing people from all different areas to like a common platform for want of a better term, right. I mean we were infrastructure guys, yourself as well John, and here we are at an event that as a community and as a technology I think it's just, it's changing the world, but it's also bringing things almost under one hood. So I would say anybody, like whatever you're doing, do all roads lead to Kubernetes at the moment, I don't know. >> Yeah, well we know software can actually be a unifying factor. Best term I've heard is Kubernetes is looking to be that universal back plain. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> and therefore, both you know, southbound to the infrastructure, northbound to the application. Nigel Poulton congratulations on the progress. Definitely, everybody makes sure to check out his training online, and thank you for helping us to wrap up our three days of coverage here. For John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman. TheCUBE will be at KubeCon 2020 in both Amsterdam and Boston. we will be at lots of other shows. Be sure to check out thecube.net. Please reach out if you have any questions. We are looking for more people to help support our growing coverage in the cloud native space, so thank you so much for the community, thank you to all of our guests, thank you to the CNCF and our sponsors that make this coverage possible, and thank you to you our audience for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California. It's theCube! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat. A cloud native computing foundation. >> Welcome back. 12 thousand here in attendance for KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman, my cohost for this afternoon is John troyer. And happy to welcome to the program, recently out of Stealth, two gentlemen from Chronosphere, Austin. To my right is Martin Mao who is the co-founder and CEO and his co-founder Rob Skillington, who's also the CTO, we've stated on theCUBE actually, you understand where this conference is, where co-founder and CTO is like you know, the most prominent title that we've seen to get on here, because that's the type of geeks we love on the program and in this community. So first of all, congratulations on the launch >> Thank you so much >> And thank you so much for joining us. >> No worries. >> All right, when I've got the founders on, I'm going to start with the whys. How was kind of the problem statement, where you were coming from, and what led to the creation of Chronosphere. >> For sure for sure. So with Chronosphere we found a actual gap in the monitoring market, and a very crowded monitoring market, we found a gap, and the gap exists when companies with very large complex technology stacks, or large enterprises, move on to Cloud Native Technology and Kubernetes. So with this migration, what we've found was there's actually a lot more monitoring data being produced, because there's a lot more pieces now, we're moving from monoliths microservices, we're moving from like physical machines to VMs, to containers and pods. And that generates a lot more things that you need to monitor and track. And not only a lot more things, but you generally monitoring the relationship between these things. So as the number of things increases, the number of relationships exponentially increases. So yeah, that's the sort of problem we're solving, it's like monitoring all of these things at large scale, and when we couldn't find anything, and I could even store all of theses things, so that's it sort of. >> All right, so what is the background of the team that made you into position to work on this problem? >> Yeah great question. I mean me and Martin go back quite a few years. I officiated his wedding, only very very recently actually. And I, yeah we basically work together at several different companies. You know, I think both of us are entrepreneurial at heart. I'll let Martin talk a little bit more about the last few years. >> Yeah, so like you know, a few years ago we started working at Uber. And at Uber, we went through this migrations to our native communities and through that migration that's when we sort of had to solve the problem ourselves. And we solved the problem at Uber, with an open-source project called M3. That's really where this whole thing started. And Chronosphere sort of you know, building on top of M3, and now providing a product on top of the open-source platform that we created. >> Can we talk a little bit about the business? I noticed that you know, there are many ways of approaching open-source, in 2019, you know open core and but also as a service. So can you talk a little bit about how you've approached your business model. >> Yeah for sure. So we're very much in the position or in the camp of as a service, right, because you know a lot of companies do do open core, and they're sort of going into the enterprise support model, we sort of didn't want to go down that route. And also with our open-source product, it's not really an end to end solution in itself, like you use an open-source M3, but you still need to plug it together with other things yourself. So what we really wanted to do was to give customers, and end to end solution, and that was built on top of the great technology, we built with M3, but really it solves the problem sort of end to end, and we do that best as a service. >> Rob maybe you can help explain M3 a little bit for us as to how that fits in the landscape, but what it works with and the like. >> Yeah of course. Yeah it's basically at it's heart a metrics platform, that is built on, at first the lower layer in 3DB, which is a distributive time series database. And then on top of that, we have basically an aggregation platform, that is actually aggregating a lot of the samples, and metrics that we're, collecting. So we can really do some transformations on the data, as it comes in, before it's stored in the database itself. And this let's us do a lot of like smart processing, of what signals actually matter, what signals don't matter, kind of like storing them in a way that can be accessed, much faster than like, other typical systems that don't really do any aggregation before it gets stored. And then, you know we have of course like a query engine that works with this distributed set of data, and so, you know, it's really a database that was designed from day one, to be a metric store. You know, it's not built on Cassandra, it doesn't use Rocks DB, at the lower layers, it literarily every part of it, was built for this purpose. >> Can you talk a little bit about dimensionality and cardinality? Because as I look at this observability monitoring space, I see a lot of current discussion about that and frankly a little bit of fighting, and I'm not always, I can kind of see it, why it's important, but what are some of the reasons and what do people do where you know by having it, and what is it actually, let's start with that. >> Yeah for sure. So you know, with this hot topic of like high cardinality and high dimensionality is, what I was talking about earlier, where as you move into cloud native world, you're now monitoring things at like a pod level. So it's like instead of tracking things on like a per host level, you're now tracking things on like a per pod level now, and that is at >> (interjects) You're tracking more things per pod. >> More things per pod and like every pod unit, these are ephemeral pods now, so they don't live for very long. So you end up having more pieces of data and they're kept around for shorter period of time. And now you need a system that can store all of these pieces of data, because you want to see them uniquely. So you want to monitor each individual pod to see exactly what is running at the finest levels. Right, so you actually need technology that can store a lot more data than you could before. >> And I you know, adding to that, there's a lot more people running with like mobile applications, they use you know that are running in markets all round the world, using different cell providers, and different backend services. You may deploy your backend services multiple times, a week or even a day, and if you want to tag you know, the meta data on and slice and dice by that metadata, with your business and with your applications and your system, that requires you know, adding yet another dimension on your data, which adds to that cardinality. Every time you add a dimension, you know that just multiplies the cardinality of your existing data set of monitoring data. >> And it quickly adds up a lot right, so. >> All right Martin, maybe, since you're just out of Stealth, give us some of the speeds and feeds you know, the product GA, is it globally available? Series A funding, who's behind that? >> Yeah so we just kind of still two weeks ago, we closed up Series A a few months ago actually. It was led by Great Luck, we raised 11 million dollars, and our partner at Great Luck is Gary, and we like him very much. And you know the state of the companies that we are currently in private beta right now. So with our hosted platform, we are onboarding to customers into a private offering right now. And early next year, we'll sort of open that up for more public beta. Yeah. >> And the way folks would use this. You'll be using Prometheus or Graphite or something, and you'd be, so you'd have tracing, you'd have logs, you'd have other things and you would be plugging all of them into, into your services. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you mentioned two of the technologies. So if you're Prometheus or Graphite like to try find metrics, both of those can be pushed into the M3 system for sure. We actually just announced a trace integration, this week a KubeCon actually, Rob David spoke about that integration earlier this week at KubeCon. We haven't moved into the logs yet because the way we look at the problem is not from like a sort of like providing a one-stop shop for all observability solutions, we actually look at it from a use case perspective. So the use case we're looking at is like, realtime monitoring and remediation. So tracing is a part of that stroy, it's a critical part of that story, and now to add additional context, when you get to load it based on your metrics, but, we haven't quite moved into logging yet. >> Yeah, and we don't really want to solve any of these problems without knowing it'll work at scale, you know like a fundamental reason we even built the open-source project in the first place, was we were dealing with cardinality in the tens of billions of unique time series, and so, we don't want to just kind of like roll into any, every single feature under the sun, we really want to solve it once correctly and be able to systematically roll that out to enterprises at scale. >> Without, I mean without talking too much about Uber and any Uber secrets, I mean it seems like the game has changed with that kind of a scale of, you could not have done, you can't run Uber if you're tracking all those cars like literarily without some sort of a tracing like high cardinality sort of a system right? Because you're literarily tracking cars all over the world people all over the world, routes all over the world. >> Exactly, well uniquely positioned, we had the requirements to solve it at such a scale, and that's why we had to build this technology to solve it for that unique situation, because you know technologies ahead of time, did not really have this use case to solve. So that's why we had to sort of, we couldn't find anything out in the market because to solve it at that scale, that's why we sort of had to build our own, to uniquely solve it for this use case. >> And yeah, I would add to that, that typically engineers you know, at larger organizations, tend to want to organize everything very nicely, and split it up, and really control how they're monitoring that data, but we've noticed actually, definitely over the last few years, more and more people are open to letting people just start collecting you know, random data, that is relevant to the systems that they're building as they're rolling it out, even as they're experimenting with it, and you know systems today that are built from scratch, to deal with, to be as efficient as possible, with very unstructured data is becoming wildly popular because that's how developers want to develop software. You know, they don't want to have to have to like slice and dice it neatly and package it up and pass it on to others to run. They want to basically slice and dice however they want to, and dynamically , and as they scale up. >> I've always enjoyed every sequel skimmer I've had two, or change oh, yeah. (laughter) >> All right, how have you found the show? How's the reception been? Give us a little bit of the vibe of the show and how it's been going for you. >> Yeah it's been fantastic for us actually. So we just came in at silk so like the name is still quite new, but yeah, we've had a bunch of folks set up with the whole day, we've been giving a demo on the product, so a lot of companies are getting excited about it. I think a we're solving at a scale and that really resonates with, you know, a lot of the people here at the show, we're still solving at a scope, we're solving at a scale that's also in a cost efficient way as well. So that's really been our, we sleep quite well so far. >> Yeah Rob, you gave some sessions. What kind of feedback are you getting from people? Is the problem statement that we talked about at the beginning you know resonating with people that you talk to. >> I mean, I was really, yeah pleased to hear that after my session today, that a lot of people came up to me and said you know, I've never really seen metrics been linked to tracers, the way that we're doing it, in fact that's the first time they'd ever seen a demo, that can do, what we're kind of trying to upstream, we're actually you know, up-streaming a lot of those changes in the open-source well, as well at the same time. And so, you know we've found especially in a lot of the companies today that are pushing everything forward with development wise and how they are running operations is that they using a lot of pages in open source, and then those pages are battle tested in open-source, generally it becomes abstracted, to the point where we're actually a very large amount of people, but then when they need to scale it up, that's when it becomes difficult. So, no I think that you know, a lot of people have been very positive with basically us being able to also push forward the feature on >> Back upstream into the M3 project. >> And also into Prometheus. So I, you know I'm an open metrics, contributor and that's essentially, an exposition format that's built on the Prometheus, exposition format. So it's kind of become a standard way of exchanging metrics, from one system to another. And that's kind of like, basically commoditized and democratize the exchange of metrics to make a lot more systems, interoperable with each another. Which we fundamentally believe in as well, of course we're developing in open-source, and we believe that this systems need to play nicely together. So we can build you know, have building blocks that large companies and organizations can all share and build better things on top of. >> All right, so looking to go to public beta early 2020s, what we said, when we come back in 2020, what kind of the, some of the key KPIs and metrics that you'll be looking at to be successfull in your first year out of Stealth. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you know, since some of the KPIs you guys were looking at doing is coming at the public beta, making it available to a large range of companies, because right now we're sort of onboarding companies sort of one or two at a time, so yeah it's seeing how many companies adopt the product and also, we're again adding more features over time, for that particular use case of like you know, monitoring your technology just like in your business in real time. So it'll be a lot more features coming down the pipeline, and a lot more customer adoption along with that. >> And I would also say you know, our hosted platform is really about offering like deep isolation, between our tenants as well, so basically when we you know, in the next few months to come, we want to make sure that it works basically like clockwork, and everyone can, we can roll out and scale that highly isolated platform for you know tens and hundreds of organizations, and thousands eventually. And so, and doing that at scale is hard. So I think yeah, we'll see how we're doing with that. >> Yeah for sure. >> All right. Rob, Martin congratulations on coming out of Stealth, look forward to hearing more and thank you so much for joining us. >> Glad, thank you so much. >> All right, for John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back getting towards the end of three days, want to walk over here KubeCon, CloudNativeCon thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem. >>Welcome back to the queue bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and you're watching the cube here at CubeCon, cloud-native con 2019 in beautiful and sunny San Diego today. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Tom Willkie, who's vice president of product ECRO funnel labs. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. All right, so it's on your tee shirt. We've been hearing, uh, customers talking about it and the like, but, uh, why don't you introduce the company to our audience in a, where you fit in this broad landscape, uh, here at the CNCF show. Thank you. Yes. So Grafana is probably the most popular open source project for dashboarding and visualization. Um, started off focused on time series data on metrics, um, but really recently has branched out into log analysis and tracing and, and all, all of the kinds of aspects of your observability stack. >>Alright, so really big, uh, you know, broad topic there. Uh, we know many of the companies in that space. Uh, there's been many acquisitions, uh, you know, uh, recently in this, um, where, where do you fit in your system? I saw like databases, like a big focus, uh, when, when I, when I look at the company website, uh, bring us inside a little bit. Yeah. As a product to the offering. The customers most, um, >> most, most vendors in this space will sell you a monitoring product that includes the time series database normally includes visualization and some agent as well where pharma Lampson Griffon open source projects, very focused on the visualization aspects. So we are data source agnostic and we have back ends for more than 60 different data sources. So if you want to bring together data from let's say Datadog and combine it with some open source monitoring from, you can do that with. >>Uh, you can, you can have the dashboards and the individual panels in that dashboard combined data from multiple different data sources and we're pretty much the only game in town for that. You can, you can think of it like Tableau allows you to plug into a whole bunch of different databases for your BI with that. But for monitoring and for metrics. Well, so Tom, maybe let's, before we get into the exit products and more of the service and the, and the conference here, let's talk a little well on the front page of your website, you use the Oh 11, why word? So we've said where it's like monitoring here we use words like management, we use words like ops. Observability is a hot topic in the space and for people in a space that has some nuances. And so can you just maybe let the viewers and us know a little bit about what, how the space is looking at this and how you all feel about observability and what everybody here who's running some cloud native apps needs to actually function in production. >>Yeah. So I think, um, you can't talk about observability without either being pro or, or for, um, uh, the three pillars, right? So people talk about metrics, logs and traces. Um, I think what people miss here is that it's more about the experience for the developer, you know, Gruffalo and what we're trying to achieve is all about giving engineers and developers the tools they need to understand what their applications and their infrastructure doing, right? So we're not actually particularly picky about which pillars you use and which products you use to implement those pillars. But what we want to do is provide you with an experience that allows you to bring it all into a single, a single user interface and allows you to seamlessly move between the different sources of data and, and hopefully, uh, combine them in your analysis and in your root cause of any particular incident. >>And that for me is what observability means. It's about helping you understand the behavior of your application in particular. I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a software engineer by trade. I'm still on call. I still get paged at 3:00 AM occasionally. And, and having the right tools at 3:00 AM to allow me to as quickly as possible, figure out what happened and then dive into a fix. That's what we're about over funnel labs. All right. So Tom, one of the things we always need to understand and show here. There's the project and there's the company. Yep. Help us just kind of understand, you know, definitely a difference. The products, the, the, the mission of the company and how that fits with the project. So the Gruffalo project predates the company and it was started by taco. Um, he, you know, he saw a spot for like needing a much better kind of graphical editing of dashboards and making, making the kind of metrics way more accessible to your average human. >>Um, the final lab started really to focus on the it and, uh, monitoring observability use cases of profanity and, but the project itself is much broader than that. We see a lot of use cases in industrial, in IOT, even in BI as well. But Grafana labs is a company we're focused on the monitoring side of things. We're focused on the observability. So we also offer, we mean, like most companies, we have an enterprise version of. It has a few data sources for commercial vendors. So if you want to, you want to get your data dog or your Splunk into Grafana, then there's a commercial auction for that. But we also offer a hosted observability platform called Grafana clown. And this is where we take the best open source projects, the best tools that we think you need as an engineer to understand your applications and we host them for you and we operate them for you. >>We scale them, we upgrade them, we fix bugs, we sacrifice the clouds predominantly are hosted from atheists, our hosted graphite and our hosted Loki, our log aggregation system, um, all combined and brought together with uh, with the Gruffalo frontend. So yeah, like two products, a bunch of open source projects for final labs, employees, four of the promethium maintainers. And I'm one of the promethium maintainers. Um, we am employee graphite maintainers. Obviously a lot of Gryffindor maintainers, but also Loki. Um, I'm trying to think, like there's just so many open source projects. We, uh, we get involved with that. Really it's about synthesizing, uh, an observability platform out of those. And that's what we offer as a product. So you recently had an announcement that Loki is now GA. can you talk just a little bit about Loki and aggregation and logs and what Loki does? >>Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Um, a year ago in Seattle actually we announced the Loki project. Um, it was super early. I mean I just basically been finishing the code on the plane over and we announced it and no one I think could have predicted the response we had. Um, everyone was so keen and so hungry for alternative to traditional log aggregation systems. Um, so it's been a year and we've learned a hell of a lot. We've had so much feedback from the community. We've built a whole team internally around, around Loki. We now offer a hosted version of it and we've been running it in production now for over a year, um, doing some really great scale on it and we think it's ready for other people to do the same. One of the things we hear, especially at shows like this is I really, I really, you know, developers and the grassroots adopters come to us, say, we really love Loki. >>We really love what you're doing with it. Um, but my boss won't let me use it until it goes to be one. And so really yesterday we announced it's Don V. one, we think it's stable. We're not going to change any of the APS on you. We, uh, we would love you to use it and uh, and put it into production. All right. Uh, we'd like to hear a little bit more about the business side of things. So, um, I believe there was some news around funding, uh, uh, you know, how many people you have, how many, you know, can you parse for us, you know, how many customers have the projects versus how many customers have, uh, you know, the company's products. Well, we don't, we don't call them customers of the projects that users, yes, yes, we, uh, but I'm from a company where we have hundreds of customers. >>Um, I don't believe we make our revenue figures public and, uh, so I'm probably not going to dive into them, but I know, I know the CEO stands up at our, our yearly conference and, and discloses, you know, what our revenue the last year was. So I'll refer you to that. Um, the funding announcement, that was about a month ago. We, uh, we raised a great round from Lightspeed, um, 24 million I believe. Um, and we're gonna use that to really invest in the community, really invest in our projects and, and build a bit more of a commercial function. Um, the company is now about 110 people. I think, um, it's growing so quickly. I joined 18 months ago and we were 30 people and so we've almost quadrupled in size in, in the last year and a half. Um, so keeping up is quite a challenge. Uh, the two projects, uh, products I've already touched on a few hundred customers and I think we're, you know, we're really happy with the growth. >>We've been, uh, we've never had any institutional funding before this. The company is about five years old. So we've been growing based on organic revenue and, and, and, and, you know, barely profitable, uh, but reinvesting that into the company and, and it's, yeah, it's going really well. We're also one of the, I mean it's not that unique I guess, but we're remote first. We have a more than 50% of our employees work from home. I work from my basement in London. We have a few tiny like offices, one in Stockholm and one in New York, but, but we're really keen to hire the best people wherever they are. Um, and we invest a lot in travel. Uh, we invest a lot in, um, the, the right tools and getting the whole company together to really make that work. Actually a really fun place to work. What time? >>We're S we're still in the business here and I don't know how much time you've spent at the booth this year, but I don't, can you compare, I mean, we've been talking about the growth of this community and the growth of this conference. Can you compare say this year to last year, the, the people coming up, their maturity, the maturity of their production, et cetera. Are they, are they ready to buy? Are they still kicking? Are they still wondering what this Cooper Cooper need easy things is, you know, where, where is everybody this year and how does that, how has it changed? Yeah, and that's a good question where we're definitely seeing people with a lot more sophisticated questions. The, the, the conversations we're having at the booth are a lot longer than they've been in previous years. The um, you know, in particular people now know what key is. We only announced it a year ago and gonna have a lot of people asking us very detailed questions about what scale they can run it at. >>Um, otherwise, yeah, I think there is starting to be a bit more commercial intent at the conference, some few more buying decisions being made here. It's still predominantly a community oriented conference and I think the, the, I don't want that to go away. Like, that's one of the things that makes it attractive to me. And, and I bring my whole team here and that's one of the things that makes it attractive to them. But there is a little bit more, I'm a little more sales activity going on for sure. Any updates to the, to the tracing and monitoring observability stories of the projects here at CNCF this year since you as you're part of the promethium project? >> Yes. So we actually, we had the promethium conference in Munich two weeks ago and after each committee conference, the maintainers like to get together and kind of plan out the next six months of the project. >>So we started to talk about um, adding support for things like exemplars into Prometheus's. This is where each histogram bucket, you can associate an example trace that goes, that contributed towards that, that history and that latency. And then you can build nice user interfaces around that. So you can very quickly move from a latency graph to example traces that caused that. Um, so that's one of the things we're looking to do in Prometheus. And of course Jaeger graduated just a week ago. I think. Um, we're big users of Jaeger internally at for final amps. And actually on our booth right now, uh, we're showing a demo of how we're integrating, um, visualization of distributed tracing, integral foreigner. So you can, you know, using the same approach we do with metrics where we support multiple backends, we're going to support Yeager, we're going to support Zipkin, we're going to support as many open source tracing projects as we can with the Grafana UI experience and being able to seamlessly kind of switch between different data sources, metrics all the way to logs all the way to traces within one UI. >>And without ever having to copy and paste your query and make mistakes and kind of translate it in your head. Right. >> Tom, give us a little bit, look forward. Uh, you know, a lot of activities as the thing's going to, you know, graduating and pulling things together. So what should your users be looking for kind of over the next six to 12 months? >> That's a great question. Yeah, I think we do a yearly release cycle for foreigners. So the next one we're, we're aiming towards is for seven, like for me to find a seven's going to be all about tracing. So I really want to see the demo we're doing. I want to see that turned into like production ready code support for multiple different data sources, support for things like exemplars, which we're not showing yet. Um, I want to see all of that done in Grafana in the next year and we've also massively been flushing out the logging story. >>I'm with Loki, we've been adding support for uh, extracting metrics from the logs and I really think that's kind of where we're going to drive Loki forward in the future. And that really helps with systems that aren't really exposing metrics like legacy systems where the only kind of output you get from them is the logs. Um, beyond that. Yeah, I mean the welds are kind of oyster. I think I'm really keen to see the development of open telemetry and um, we've just starting to get involved to that project ourselves. Um, I'm really interested to kind of talk to people about what they need out of a tracing system. We, we see people asking for a hosted tracing systems. Um, but, but IMO is very much like pick the best open source ones. I don't think that's, that's emerged yet. I don't think people know which is the best one yet. >>So we're going to get involved in all of them. See which one's a C, which one's a community kind of coalesces around and maybe start offering a hosted version of that. >> You know, our final thing is, uh, you know, what advice do you have for users? Obviously, you know, you like the open source thing, but you know, they're hearing about observability everywhere there are, you know, the, the whole APM market is moving this direction. There's acquisitions as we talked about earlier. Um, there's so many moving pieces and a lot of different viewpoints out there. So just, you know, from a user, how do you know, how will things ma, what makes their lives easier and what advice would you give them? Yeah, no, definitely. I think a lot of vendors will tell you like to pick a, pick a vendor who's going to help you with this journey. >>Like I would say like, pick a vendor you trust who can help you make those decisions. Like find someone impartial who's gonna not make, not try and persuade you to buy their product. So we would, uh, you know, I would encourage you to try things out to dog food and to really like invest in experimentation. There's a lot going on in, uh, in, in the observability world and in the cloud native world. And you've got to, you've got to try it and see what fits. Like we embrace this, uh, composability of the, uh, of the observatory of, of the observability ecosystem. So like, try and find which, which choices work best for you. Like I, uh, whenever, whenever I talk to him, you still have to lick all the cupcakes in 2019. I think. I mean, I would, it depends on your level of kind of maturity, right? >>And sophistication. Like, I think if, uh, if, if this is really important to you, you should go down that approach. You should try them all. If this is not one of your core competencies that may be going with a vendor that helps you is a better approach. But, but I'm, I come from the open source world and, uh, you know, I like to see the, um, the whole ecosystem and all the different players and all the different, new and exciting ways to solve these problems. Um, so I'm, I'm always going to encourage people to have a play and try things out. All right, Tom, final word, Loki. Explain to us, uh, you know, when you're coming up with it, how you ended, uh, are you the God of mischief? Well, so the official line is the Loki is the, um, is the North mythology equivalent of Prometheus's, uh, in Greek mythology and, and lochia logging project is, is, is Prometheus's inspired logging. So we've tried to take the operational model from, from atheists, the query language from, from atheists and, and the kind of a cost efficiency from, from atheists and apply it to logs. Um, but I will admit to being a big fan of the Marvel movies. All right, Tom Willkie. Thank you so much for sharing the updates on, on the labs. Uh, we definitely look forward to hearing updates from you and thank you. All right, for, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Madmen back with more coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching the cube.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cue covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to the cube here in San Diego for cube con cloud native con 2019. It's our fourth year of doing the cube here. I'm Stu Miniman. It's my fourth time I've done this show. Joining me is Justin Warren. He's actually been to more of the coupons than the cube has, I think at least in North America. And welcome into the program to two veterans of these events from pure storage. Uh, sitting to my right is she'll be uh, Shrivastava who's a director of product marketing and sitting to her right is Anthony lay Ferrario who's a senior product manager, uh, both of you with pure storage. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. All right, so, so we, we were kind of joking about veterans here because we know that things are moving faster and faster. You both work for storage companies. Storage is not known to be the fastest moving industry. Um, it's been fascinating for me to watch kind of things picking up the pace of change, especially when you talk about, uh, you know, how developers and you know, software and a multicloud environment, a fit-out. So she'll be maybe, you know, give us a frame for, you know, you, you know, you're in a Cooper ladies tee shirt here pures at the show. How should we be thinking about pure in this ecosystem? >>Sure. Yeah. So, uh, you're, as, you know, we, we side off as all flash on brand storage company, uh, 10 years ago and, uh, we've kept pace with constantly innovating and making sure we're meeting our customer's needs. One of the areas of course that we see a lot of enterprises moving today is two words, microservices, two words, containerized applications. And our goal that you're really is to help customers modernize, modernize their applications while still keeping that store it's seamless and keeping that, uh, invisible to the application developers. >> I think it actually lines up really well if you're do just a pure sort of steam across time has been performance with simplicity. Right? And I think the simplicity argument starts to mean something different over time, but it's a place that we still want to really focus as our customers started to use, uh, try to containerize our applications. >>There are couple of challenges. We saw continued environments, of course, they're known for their, uh, agility, uh, how portable they are. They're lightweight and they're fast. And when they're fast, storage can sometimes be a bottleneck because your storage might not necessarily scale as fast. It might not be able to provision storage volumes as fast, your container environment. And that's the challenge that we at pure why to solve with our Cuban eighties integrations. Anthony, you mentioned simplicity there. So I'm going to challenge you a bit on that because Kubernetes is generally not perceived as being particularly simple and the storage interfaces as well, like stateful sets is kind of only really stabilized over the last 18 months. So how >>is pure actually helping to make the Cuban Eddie's experience simpler for developers? Yeah, and you know, you're totally right. I don't think I was necessarily saying that someone looking for the simplest thing that could ever find would adopt Kubernetes and expect to find that. But what I really meant was, you know, on one hand you have, you know, your more traditional enterprise infrastructure type folks who are trying to build out the underlying private cloud that you're going to deploy, you know, your infrastructure on. And on the other hand, you have your developers, you have your Kubernetes, you have your cloud native applications, right? And really the interface between those is where I'm looking at that simplicity argument because traditionally pure has focused on that simple interface to the end user. But the end user, as we were talking about before, the show has shifted from a person to being a machine, right? >>And the objective for pure and what we're building on the cognitive side is how do we take that simple sort of as a service consumption experience and present that on top of what looks like a traditional infrastructure platform. So I can get more into the, the details of that if you'd like, but really that that layer is where we're focused on the simplicity and really just asking the, the, uh, the end user as few questions as we can. Right. I just want to ask you, what do you need? I don't want to ask you, well, tell me about the, you know, IQN and blah, blah. They don't want that, right? That's the simplicity I'm talking about. Yeah. Well, you run developers generally, I mean, the idea of dev ops and I challenge people whenever they mentioned dev ops, and I'm hearing a pretty consistent message that developers really don't care about infrastructure and don't want to have anything to do with it at all. >>So if you can just bake it into the system and somehow make it easier to operate it, that kind of SRE level, that infrastructure level that, that Kubernetes as a platform. So once that's solved, then as a developer, I can just get on with, with writing some code. We definitely want stories to be invisible. Yeah. So if you want, but if they want stories to be invisible, that's not so great for your brand because you actually want them to know and care about having a particular storage platform. So how do you, how do you balance that idea that we want to show you that we can have to have innovative products that you care about the storage, but you also don't need to care about the storage at all because we'll make it invisible. How does that work? >>So Coupa storage for container environments has been a challenge. And what we are trying to educate the platform level users is that with the right kind of storage, it can actually be easy stores. For QA, these can be easy. And, uh, the way we make it simple or invisible is through the automation that we provide. So pure service orchestrator is our, uh, automation for storage delivery into the containerized environments. And so it's delivered to a CSI plugin, but we tried to do a little more than just develop a plugin into your Cubanetis environments. We tried to make your scalability seamless, so it's super easy to add new storage. And, um, so yeah, I think because a container environments were initially developed for States, less applications when became to staple applications, they still think about, Oh, why should I care about storage? But people are slowly realizing that we need care about it because we don't want to ultimately be bothered by it. Right. >>And if I can make, if I can make a point to just tag on to that I, the conversations I've had at the show this week, I've even helped me sort of crystallize the way I like to explain this to people, which is at first, you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, I don't, I don't do stateful application. I'm doing stateless applications and competitors. And my response is, okay, I understand that you've decided to externalize the state of your system from your Kubernetes deployment. But at some point you have to deal with state. Now, whether that's an Oracle database, you happen to be calling out to outside of your community's cluster, whether that's a service from a public cloud like S3 or whether that's deciding to internalize that state into Coobernetti's and manage it through the same management plane you have to have state. >>Now when we talk about, you know, what we're doing in PSO and why that's valuable and why, you know, to your point about the brand, I don't necessarily worry is because when we can give a seamless experience at the developer layer and we can give the SRE or the cluster manager layer a way where they can have a trusted high performance, high availability storage platform that their developers consume without knowing or worrying about it. And then as we look into the future, how do we handle cross cluster and multi-cloud stateful workloads, we can really add value there. >>Well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought up the multi-cloud piece of it because one of the more interesting things I saw from pure this year is how pure is putting in software cloud native. Um, so when I saw that one of the questions like, okay, when I come to a show like this, how does Kubernetes and containers fit into that old discussion? So how help us connect the dots as to what was announced and everything else that's happening. >>You've heard about cloud block store, which is our software running on the AWS cloud today. And uh, that's basically what we've done is we've people have loved flash array all these years for the simplicity it provides for the automation and performance. You want to give you something similar and something enterprise grade in the public cloud. The cloud, Luxor is basically, you can think of it as a virtual flash array and on the AWS cloud. So with that, you now have D duplication, 10 provisioning capabilities in the cloud. You can, um, be brought an active cluster, which is active, active, synchronous replication between availability zones. So really making your AWS environments ready for mission critical applications. Plus with our, you know, PSO just works the same way on prem as in the cloud. So it's just great for hybrid application mobility. You have the same APIs. >>Yeah, it's actually very cool. Right? One of the, one of the, you know, fun things for me as a software developer at pure, at a software side guy at pure, um, is that the API's that our arrays have are the same API. It's actually the same underlying software version even though it's a totally different hardware, hardware back end implementation. When we run in a cloud native form factor versus when we run in a physical appliance form factor, the replication engines work between the two snapshots, clones. Um, our ability to do instant, um, restores like everything that we do and that has brought value from our, our storage software stack, we still get access to in a cloud native environment and the transports as well. I guess trying to understand, is there Kubernetes involved here or is this just natively in AWS? And then then on premises itself is a, >> is a compute orchestration layer component. So when I look at Kubernetes, I'd say Kubernetes sits above both sides, right? Or potentially above and across both sides, um, depending on how you decide to structure your environment. But the nice part is if you've developed a cloud native application, right, and that's running on Kubernetes, the ability to support that with the same storage interfaces, the same SLS, move it efficiently, copy it efficiently and do that on whatever cloud you care to do. That's where it gets really cool. >>So we developed this really cool demo where you have a container application running on PSO, on flash array, on prem. We migrated that to cloud block store and on AWS and it just runs, you use the same yanno scripts in both places. There is no need to, you know, do a massive rearchitecture anything. Your application just runs when you move it. And we take care of all the data mobility with our asynchronous replications, you can take a snapshot on prem, you can snap it out into AWS, restore it back into cloud block store. So it really opens up a lot of new use cases and make them simple for customers >>that that idea of write once run anywhere. I said I'm, I'm old enough to remember when Java was a brand new thing and that was the promise. And it never quite got there because it turns out it's really, really hard to do that. Um, but we are seeing for from pure and from a lot of vendors here at the show that there's a lot of work and effort being put in into that difficult problem so that other people don't have to care about it. So you're building that abstraction in and, and working on how this particular, how the details of this work. And, uh, I was fortunate enough to get a deep dive into the end of the architecture of cloud Brock's door, just a recent accelerate conference and the way you've actually used cloud resources as if they were kind of infrastructure components and then built the abstraction on top of it, but in the same way that it runs on site, it, that's what gives you that ability to, to keep everything the same and make it simple, is doing a lot of hard work and hard engineering underneath so that no one has to care anymore. >>Yeah. And the way we've architected CloudLock store is that, you know, be as use the highest performance performing, uh, AWS infrastructure. And the highest durability it this infrastructure. So you're actually now able to buy performance and, and durability in one through one single virtual appliance as you would. >>Yeah. How's the adoption of the products going? I know it was, it was very early when it was announced just a few months ago. So what's the feedback from customers been so far about? >>It's been really positive and actually, you know, the one use case that I want to highlight really most is actually dev ops use cases, right? This, the value add of being able to have the same deployment for that application for a test or dev infrastructure in one cloud versus a production to point them in another cloud has been very exciting for folks. So, you know, when you think about that use case in particular, right? The ability to say, okay, I'm coming up to a major quarterly release or whatever I have for my product, I need to establish a bunch more test environments. I don't necessarily want to have bought that and we're not necessarily talking about, you know, bursting over the wire anymore. Right. We're talking about local, uh, local storage under the same interfaces in the cloud that you choose to spin up all of those test environments. So cases like that are pretty interesting for folks. >>Yeah. I think that's how people have started to realize that it's that operation side of things. It's not even day to day 90 and day 147 where I want to be operating this in the same place in the same way no matter where it is because it just saves me so much heartache and time of not having to re implement differently and I don't have to retrain my resources because it all looks the same. So, uh, yeah, Def does definitely have a big use case migration through verbose. That's another use case that we are seeing a lot of customers interested in and uh, disaster recovery, using it as a disaster recovery. How do you, so you can efficiently store backups on Amazon S three, but how do you do an easy fast restore to actually run your applications there? So with CloudLock store, it is now possible to do that, to do a fast, easy restore. Also a couple of weeks ago actually, we started taking registrations for a beta program for cloud Glocks or for Azure as well. Uh, yup. Customers are going multi-cloud. We are going multi-cloud with them. >>Great. I want to give you both a final word, uh, takeaways for a pure storage participation here at the show. >>I think the biggest thing that I, that I want people to understand, and I actually gave this talk at the cloud native storage day on day zero is that cloud native storage is an approach to storage. There's not a location for storage. And I think pure storage that really defines to me the way we're going about this, we're trying to be cloud native storage wherever you need it. So that's, that's really the takeaway I'd like people to have about pure >>and cute and storage for Cuban. It is, doesn't have to be hard. We are here all day today as well. So, um, I mean this is a challenge the industry seeing today and uh, we have a solution to solve that for you. >>All right, well that's a, that's a bold statement, uh, to help end us as Shilpi. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman back with more coverage here from cube con cloud native con 2019 stay classy, San Diego. And thanks for watching the queue.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's fourth year of coverage at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, we're here in San Diego, it's 2019, I'm Stu Miniman, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren, and happy to welcome two guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNCF, NetApp, sitting to my right is Matt Baldwin, who is the director of cloud native and Kubernetes engineering, and sitting to his right is Rob Esker, who does product and strategy for Kubernetes, and is also a forward member on the CNCF, thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, so Matt, maybe start with you, NetApp, companies that know, I've got plenty of history with NetApp there, what I've been hearing from NetApp for the last few years is, the core of NetApp has always been software, and it is a multicloud world. I've been hearing this message since before the cloud native and Kubernetes piece was going. Of course there's been some acquisitions, and NetApp continuing to go through its transformations, if you will. So help us understand NetApp's positioning in this ecosystem. >> In Kubernetes? >> Yes. >> Okay, so, what we're doing is, we're building a product that allows you to manage cloud-native workloads on top of Kubernetes, so we've solved the infrastructure problem, and that's kind of the old problem we're bored to death talking about that problem, but what we try to do is try to provide a single pane of glass to manage on-premise workloads and off-premise workloads, and so that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to say, it's now more about the app taxonomy in Kubernetes, and then what type of tooling do you build to manage that application in Kubernetes, and so that's what we're building right now, that's where we're headed with the hybrid multicloud. >> There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strengths of NetApp, of course. So we're building, we are essentially already in market a capability that allows you to deploy Kubernetes, in an agnostic way, using pure open unmodified Kubernetes, on all of the major public clouds, but also on-prem. But over time, and some of this is already evident, you'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp, and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds. >> With the idea that you should be able to take a project, so a project being in a namespace, namespace having an application in it, so you have multiple deployments, I should be able to protect that namespace, or that project, I should be able to move that, and that data goes with it, so that we're very data-aware, that's what we're trying to do with our software is, make it very data-aware and have that align with apps inside of Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Rob, maybe step back for a second, one of the things we've heard a few times at this show before, and it was talked about in the keynote this morning, is that it is project over company when it comes to the CNCF. Project over company, so it's about the ecosystem, the CNCF tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fit in a space. NetApp moving up to a platinum sponsor level, participated here, NetApp's got lots of histories in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going, where does NetApp see its position in participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >> Yeah, so great question, and actually, I love it, it's one of my favorite topics, so, I think the way we look at it is, oftentimes projects, to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard, a defacto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body, and so we're very interested in making sure that in the scenario where you want to employ this standard, from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities, our products and our services, vis-a-vis, or in the context of the standard, but we're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary journey, if you will. We would rather compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interfaces. So Kubernetes, broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on rounding out the edges, a lot of it underway this week, it's definitely the case that there's an appeal to making this more offerable by, pardon the expression, mere mortals, and we think we can offer some help in that respect as well. >> Yeah, where is its usability? I mean, that's the reason I started stacked on cloud, was that there was a usability problem with Kubernetes. I had a usability problem with Kubernetes. That's what we're trying, that's how I'm looking at the landscape, and I look at all the projects inside of the CNCF, and I look at my role is, our role is to, how do we tie these together, how do we make these so they're very very usable to the users, and how we're engaging with the community is to try to align this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not going to, we don't want to ever say we're going to fork any of these projects, but we're going to contribute back into these projects. >> So that's one concern that I have heard from some customers, which speaking of which, some of them yesterday, one of the concerns they had was that, when you add that manageability onto the base Kubernetes layer, that often, various vendors become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that, and when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem, so some customers say, "Well I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded "to any one vendor, 'cause part of the benefit "of Kubernetes is I can move my workloads around." So how do you navigate what is the right level of opinion to have, and which part should actually just be part of a common standard? >> Think it needs to be along the lines of best practices, is how we do it. So, let's take network policy, for example, applying a sane, default network policy to every namespace. Defining a sane, default pod security policy, building a cluster in a best practices fashion, with security turned on, hardening done, where you would've done this already as a user, so we're not locking you in in any way there. So that's, we're not trying, I'm not trying to curate any type of opinion of the product, what we're trying to do is harmonize your experience across all this ecosystem, so that you don't ever have to think about, "I'm building a cluster on top of Amazon, "so I got to worry about how do I manage this on Amazon." I don't want you to have to think about those providers anymore. And then on top of those, on top of that infrastructure, I want to have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way, so I'm scaling, or I'm protecting an application on-premise, in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >> So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing that means that I should choose your option than something else? >> So, we do have, this is where we have controllers that live inside of the clusters, that manage this stuff for the users. So, you could rebuild what we're doing, but you would have to roll it all by hand. But you could, we don't stand in the way of your operations either, so if we go down, you don't go down, type of idea. But we do have controllers, we're using CRDs, and so our app management technology, our controllers are just watching for a workload to come into the environment, and then we show that in the interface, but you can just walk away as well, if you wanted to. >> There's also a constellation of other services that we're building around, this experience, that do draw, again, from some of the storage and data management capabilities, so staple sets, your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can exist in all of those same public clouds, but moreover, over time, we're going to be, and on-premise as well, we're going to be able to actually move, migrate, place, cache, per policy, your persistent data, with your workloads, as you move, migrate, scale, burst, whatever the model is, as you move across and between clouds. >> How far down that pathway do you think we are, 'cause one criticism of Kubernetes is that a lot of the tooling that we're used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure, isn't really there yet, hence the question about, we actually need to make this easier to use. How far down that pathway are we? >> I'd argue that the tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down the path. Now, what we haven't done is open sourced all of my tooling, right, to make it easier on everybody else. >> Rob, NetApp's got strong partnerships across the cloud platforms, I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event, I know you partner of the year, I believe, on some of these stuff, help us understand how some of the things Matt and the team are building interact with the public clouds, you look at Anthos, and Azure Arc, and of course Amazon has many different ways you can do your container and management piece there. Talk a little bit about that relationship and how, both with those partners and then across those partners, work. >> Yeah, it's, how much time do we have, so there's certainly a lot of facets to that, but drawing from the Google experience, we just announced the general availability of Cloud Volumes ONTAP, so the ability to stand up and manage your own ONTAP instance in Google's cloud. Likewise, we announced the general availability of the Cloud Volume service, which gives you the managed push button as a service experience of shared file system on demand, at Google, I believe it was either today or yesterday, in London, I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone conversion, not knowing what day it was, but the point is, that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from MKS, to deploy a on-demand Kubernetes cluster, and deploy applications from a marketplace experience, in a common way, not just with Google but Azure, with Amazon, and so frankly the story does differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the endeavor is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about, I want to live only in the Google or the Microsoft or the Amazon ecosystem, we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multicloud experience. >> Yeah, and Matt, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but it's that skillset that's really challenging. I was at the Microsoft show, and you've got people, it's not just about .NET, they're embracing and open to all of these environments, but people tend to have the environments that they're used to, and for multicloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still, we're making progress but there's work to do. >> Matt: Yeah, what's the question? >> Yeah, so, I know you're building tools and everything, but what more do we need to do, where are some of the areas that you're hopeful for, but where are the areas that we need to go further? >> So for me it's coming down to the data side. I need to be able to say that, when I turn on data services, inside of Kubernetes, I need to be able to have that workload go anywhere, because as a developer, I'm running a production, I'm running an Amazon, but maybe I'm doing tests locally on my bare metal environments, right, I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data that I'm working with in production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing, there's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed, that's the path, that's where we're headed. >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, actually, 'cause one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year but it is highlighted more this year, is we're talking a little bit more to the application developers because, Kubernetes is a piece of the infrastructure, but it's about-- >> It's the kernel. >> Yeah, it's the kernel there, so, how do we make sure we're spanning between what the app developer needs and still making sure that infrastructure is taken care of, because storage and networking are still hard. >> It is, yeah, I mean I'm approaching, I'm thinking more along the lines of, I'm trying to think more about app developers, personally, than infrastructure at this point. For me, so I can give you a cluster in three minutes, right, so I don't really have to worry about that problem. We also put Istio on top of the clusters, so it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one, day two type operations. But, and that's for an IT manager, right, so inside of our product, how I'm addressing this is you have personas, and so you have this concept, you have an IT manager, they can do these things, they can set limits, but for the developer, who's building the applications or the services and pushing those up into the environment, they need to have a sense of freedom, and so on that side of the house, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling, so part of our product ties into Git, so we have cd, so you just do a git push, git commit to a branch, and we can target multiple clusters. But at no point did the developer actually draft DAML, or anything, we basically create the container for you, create the deployment, bring it online, and I feel like there's these lines, and the IT guys need to be able to say, "I need to create the guardrails for the devs, "but I don't want to make it seem like "I'm creating guardrails for the devs, "'cause the devs don't like that." So that's how I'm balancing it. >> Okay, 'cause that has always been the tension, in that there's a lot of talk about DevOps, but you go and talk to application developers, and they don't want to have anything to do with infrastructure, they just want to program to an API and get things done, they would like this infrastructure to be seamless. >> Yeah, and what we do, also what I'm giving them is service dashboards, because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your QA, you're writing your tests, you're pushing it through CI, it's going to CD. You own your service and production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for services that the developers are running, so they can dig in and say, "Oh, here's an issue," or "Here's where the issue's probably going to be at, "I'm going to go fix this." And we're trying to create that type of scenario for a developer, and for an IT manager. >> Slightly different angle on it, if I'm understanding the question correctly, part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also trying to provide a deterministic sort of easy button capability for, perhaps you're familiar with NetApp's Nason ATI product, which we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple, private cloud capability, and indeed, our NetApp Kubernetes service operates directly off of it, it's a big part of actually how we deliver cloud services from it. So the point is that, if you're that application developer, if you want the effective NKS on-prem, the endeavor with our NetApp ATI product is to give you that sort of easy button experience, because you didn't really want to be a storage admin or a network admin, you didn't want to get into the, be mired in the details of infra, so that's obviously work in progress, but we think we're definitely headed down the right direction. >> It does seem that a lot of enterprises want to have the cloudlike experience, but they want to be able to bring it home, we're seeing that a lot more. >> Yeah, so this turnkey on-premise, turnkey cloud on-premise, and, with NKS we can, the same auto-scaling, so take the dynamic nature of Kubernetes, so I have a base cluster size of say four worker nodes, right, but my workload's going to maybe need to have more nodes, so my auto-scaler's going to increase the size of my cluster and decrease the size, right? Pretty much everybody only can do that in the public cloud. I can do that in public cloud and on-premise, now. And so that's what we're trying to deliver, and that's pretty cool stuff, I think. >> Well there's a lot of advantages to enterprises operating in that way, because people out here, I can go and buy them or hire them, and say "Hey, we need you to operate this gear," and you've already done it elsewhere, you can do it in cloud, you can do it on-site, I can now run my operations the same across, no matter where my applications live, which saves me a lot of money on training costs, on development costs, and generally it makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. >> So Rob, if you could, just love your takeaway on NetApp's participation here at the event, and what you want people to take away from the show this year. >> So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work, we like people to become aware of it. NetApp of course is not, I think we talked about this in perhaps other contexts, not strictly a storage and data management company only. We do draw from the strengths of that as we're providing full stack capabilities, in a way that are interconnected with public cloud, things like our NetApp Kubernetes service as really the foundational glue in many ways, to how we deliver the application runtime, but over time we'll build a constellation of data-centric capabilities around that as well. >> Matt, I would just love to get your viewpoint as someone that built a company in this ecosystem, there's so many startups here, give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in this sort of ecosystem. >> Of the ecosystem... So this is, I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different at this point, I'm going to speak as Matt, not as NetApp. And so my thinking has always been it feels a lot like, you're a big fan of that rock band, right, and you go to a local club, and we all get to know each other at that local club, and there's maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us, and then that band gets signed to Warner Brothers, and goes to the top, and now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now. I think, but what I like about it is that, it just shows the power of the community is now at a point where it's drawing in cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people. And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community, and like all the, what are they called, the Kubernetes Summits that they're doing, we didn't have any of those back when we first got going, I mean it was tough to fill the room, and now we can fill the room, and it's amazing, and what I like seeing is people moving past the problem of Kubernetes itself, and moving into what other problems can I solve on top of Kubernetes, so you're starting to see all these really exciting startups doing really neat things, and I really like, like this vendor hall I really like, 'cause you get to see all the new guys, but there's a lot of neat stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years, but it's, we've gone from zero to 60 insanely fast, 'cause you guys were at the original KubeCon, I think, as well. >> It's our fourth year doing theCUBE at this show, but absolutely, we've watched it since the early days. I'm not supposed to mention OpenStack at this show, but we remember talking to JJ and some of the early people there, and we interviewed Craig McLuckie back in his Google days, and the like, so we've been fortunate to be on here since really day zero here, and definitely great energy, congrats so much on the progress, I really appreciate the updates on everything going, as you said, we've reached a certain state, and adding more value on top of this whole environment. >> Yeah, we're in junior high now, right, and we were in grade school for a few years. >> All right, well Matt and Rob, thank you so much for the update, hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. I'm Stewman and my cohost is Justin Warren. And coming back to our program, one of our cube alumni and be coach hair of this coupon cloud native con prion Lyles who is also a senior staff engineer at VMware. Brian, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on. And do you want to have a shout out of course to a Vicky Chung who is your coach hair. She has been doing a lot of work. She came to our studio ahead of it to do a preview and unfortunately she's supposed to be sitting here but a little under the weather. And we know there was nothing worse than, you know, doing travel and you know, fighting an illness. But she's a little sick today, but um, uh, she knows that we'll, we'll, we'll still handle it. Alright, so Brian, 12,000 people here in attendance. >>Uh, more keynotes than most of us can keep a track of. So, first of all, um, congratulations. Uh, things seem to be going well other than maybe, uh, choosing the one day of the year that it rained in, uh, you know, San Diego, uh, which we we can't necessarily plan for. Um, I'd love you to bring us a little bit insight as to some of the, the, the goals and the themes that, uh, you know, you and Vicki and the, the, the, the, the community we're, we're looking at for, for this coupon. So you're right, let's help thousand people and so many sponsors and so many ideas and so many projects, it's really hard to have a singular theme. But a few months ago we came up with was, well, if, if Kubernetes in this cloud software make us better or basically advances, then we can do more advanced things. >>And then our end users can be more advanced. And it was like a three pong thing. And if you look, go back and look at our keynotes, he would say, Hey, we're looking at our software. Hey, we're looking at an amazing things that we did, especially cat by that five G keynote yesterday. And the notice that we had, it was me talking about how we could look forward and then, and then notice we had in talking about security and then we had Walmart and target talking about how they're using it and, and that was all on purpose. It's trying to tell a story that people can go back and look at. Yeah, I liked the, the message that you were, you were trying to put out there around how we need to make Kubernetes a little bit easier, but how we need to change the way that we talk about it as well. >>So maybe you could, uh, fill us in a little bit more. Let's say, unfortunately, Kubernetes is not going to get an easier, um, that's like saying we wish Linux was easier to use. Um, Linux has a huge ABI and API interface. It's not going to get easier. So what we need to do is start doing what we did with Linux and Linux is the Colonel. Um, this should be some Wars happened over the years and you notice some distributions are easier to use. Another. So if you use the current fedora or you the current Ubuntu or even like mint, it's getting really easy to use. And I'm not suggesting that we need Kubernetes distributions. That's actually the furthest thing, but we do need to work on building our ecosystem on top of Kubernetes because I mentioned like CIS CD, um, observability security audit management and who knows what else we need to start thinking about those things as pretty much first-class items. >>Just as important as Kubernetes. Kubernetes is the Colonel. Yeah. Um, in the keynotes, there's, as you said, there's such a broad landscape here. Uh, uh, I've heard some horror stories that people like, Oh, Hey, where do I start? And they're like, Oh, here's the CNCF landscape. And they're like, um, I can't start there. There's too much there. Uh, you, you picked out and highlighted, um, some of the lesser known pieces. Uh, th there's some areas that are a little bit mature. What, what are some of the more exciting things that you've seen going on right now, your system and this ecosystem? >> Um, I'm not even gonna. I highlighted open policy agent as a, as an interesting product. I don't know if it's the right answer, actually. I kind of wish there was a competitor just so I could determine if it was the right answer. >>But things like OPA and then like open telemetry, um, two projects coming together and having even bigger goals. Uh, let's make a severability easy. What I would also like to see is a little bit more, more maturity and the workflow space. So, you know, the CII and CD space. And I know with Argo and flux merging to Argo flux, uh, that's very interesting. And just a little bit of a tidbit is that I, I also co-chair the CNCF SIG application delivery, uh, special interest group, but, uh, we're thinking about that, that space right there. So I would love to see more in the workflow space, but then also I would like to see more security tools and not just old school check, check, check, but, um, think about what Aqua security is doing. And I'm, I don't know if they're now Snick or S, I don't know how to say it, but, um, there's, there's companies out there rethinking security. >>Let's do that. Yeah. I spoke to Snick a couple of days ago and it's, I'm pretty sure it's sneak. Apparently it stands for, so now you know, which that was news to me that, so now I know interesting. But they have a lot of good projects coming up. Yeah. You mentioned that the ecosystem and that you like that there's competitors for particular projects to kind of explore which way is the right way of doing things. We have a lot of exhibitors here and we have a lot of competitors out there trying to come into this ecosystem. It seems to actually be growing even bigger. Are we going to see a period of consolidation where some of these competing options, we decided that actually no, we don't want to use that. We want to go over here. I mean according to crossing the chasm, yes, but we need to figure out where we are on the maturity chart for, for the whole ecosystem. >>So I think in a healthy, healthy ecosystem, people don't succeed and products go away, but then what we see is in maybe six months or a year or two later, those same founders are out there creating new products. So not everyone's going to win on their first shot. So I think that's fine because, you know, we've all had failures in the past, but we're still better for those failures. Yeah, I've heard it described as a kind of Cambridge and explosion at the moment. So hopefully we don't get an asteroid that comes in and, uh, and hopefully it is out cause yeah. Um, one of the things really, really noticed is, uh, if you went back a year or even two years ago, we were talking about very much the infrastructure, the building blocks of what we had. Uh, I really noticed front and center, especially in the keynote here, talking a lot about the workload. >>You're talking about the application. We're talking about, uh, you know, much more up the stack and uh, from kind of that application, uh, uh, piece down, even, uh, some friends of mine that were new to this ecosystem was like, I don't understand what language they're talking. I'm like, well, they're talking to the app devs. That's why, you know, they're not speaking to you. Is that, was that intentional? >> Well, I mean for me it is because I like to speak to the app devs and I realized that infrastructure comes and goes. I've been doing this for decades now and I've seen the rise of Cisco as, as a networking platform and I've seen their ups and downs. I've worked in security. But what I know is fundamentals are, are just that. And I would like to speak to the developers now because we need to get back to the developers because they create the value. >>I mean the only people who win at selling via our selling Kubernetes are vendors of Kubernetes. So, you know, I work for one and then there's the clouds and then there's other companies as well. So the thing that stays constant are people are building applications and ultimately if Kubernetes and the cloud native landscape can't take care of those application developers remember happened, remember, um, OpenStack, and not in like a negative way, but remember OpenStack, it got to be so hard that people couldn't even focus on what gave value. >> Unlike obvious fact leaves on it. It's still being used a lot in, in service providers and so on. So technology never really goes away completely. It just may fade off and live in a corner and then we move on to whatever's the next newest and greatest thing and then end up reinventing ourselves and having to do all of the same problems again. >>It feels a little bit like that with sometimes the Kubernetes way where haven't we already sold this? Linux is still here, Linux is still, and Linux is still growing. I mean Linux is over Virgin five right now and Linux is adapting and bringing in new things in a Colonel and moving things out to the user land. Kubernetes needs to figure out how to do that as well. Yeah, no Brian, I think it's a great point. You know, I'm an infrastructure guy and we know the only reason infrastructure exists is to serve up that application. What Matt managed to the business, my application, my data. Um, you and your team have some open source projects that you're involved in. Maybe give us a little bit about right? So oxen is a, so let me tell you the quick story. Joe Beda and I talked about how do we approach developers where they are. >>And one thing came up really early in that conversation was, well, why don't we just tell developers where things are broken? So come to find out using Kubernetes object model and a little bit of computer science, like just a tiny little bit. You can actually build this graph where everything is connected and then all you need to do then is determine if for any type of object, is it working or is it not working? So now look at this. Now I can actually show you what's broken and what's not broken. And what makes octane a little bit different is that we also wrapped it with a dashboard that shows everything inside of a Kubernetes cluster. And then we made it extensible. And just, just a crazy thing. I made a plugin API one weekend because I'm like, Oh, that would be kind of cool. And just at this conference alone, nine to 10 people to walk up to me and said, Oh, um, we use oxygen and we use your plugin system. >>And now we've done things that I can't imagine, and I think I might've said this, I know I've said it somewhere recently, but the hallmark of a good platform is when people start creating things you could never imagine on it. And that's what Linux did. That's what Kubernetes is doing. And octane is doing it in the small right now. So kudos to me and me really and my team that's really exciting. So fry, Oakton, Coobernetti's and Tansu both are seven sided. Uh, was, was that, that, that uh, uh, moving to, uh, to, to eight, uh, so no marketing. Okay. And I don't profess to understand what marketing is. Someone just named it. And I said, you know what, I'm a developer. I don't really mind w as long as you can call it something, that's fine. I do like the idea that we should evolve the number of platonic solids. >>There's another answer too. So if you think about what seven is, it, um, people were thinking ahead and said, well, someone could actually take that and use it as another connotation. So I was like, all right, we'll just get out of that. That's why it's called octane, but still nautical theme. Okay, great. Brian. So much going on. You know, even outside of this facility, there's things going on. Uh, any hidden gems that just the, you know, our audience that's watching or people that we'll look back at this event and say, Hey, you know, here's some cool little things there. I mean, they hit the Twitters, I'm sure they'll see the therapy dogs and whatnot, but you know, for the people geeking out, some of those hidden gems that you'd want to share. Um, some of the hidden gems or I'll, I'll throw up to, um, watch what these end-user companies are doing and watch what, like the advanced companies like Walmart and target and capital one are doing. >>I just think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and think about this. They have a crazy amount of money. They're actually investing time in this. It might be a good idea. And other hidden gyms are, are companies that are embracing the, the extension model of Kubernetes through custom resource definitions and building things. So the other day I had the tests on, on the stage, and they're not the only example of this, but running my sequel and Coobernetti's and it pretty much works all well, let's see what we can run with this. So I think that there's going to be a lot more companies that are going to invest in this space and, and, and actually deliver on these types of products. And, and I think that's a very interesting space. Yeah. We, we spoke to Bloomberg just before and uh, we talked to the tests, we spoke to Subaru from the test yesterday. >>Uh, seeing how people are using Kubernetes to build these systems, which can then be built upon themselves. Right. I think that's, that's probably for me, one of the more interesting things is that we end up with a platform and then we build more platforms on top of it. But we, we're creating these higher levels of abstraction, which actually gets us closer to just being able to do the work that we want to do as developers. I don't need to think about how all of the internals work, which again to your keynote today is like, I don't want to write machine code and I just want to solve this sort of business problem. If we can embed that into the, into this ecosystem, then it just makes everyone's lives much, much easier. So you basically, that is my secret. I'm really, I know people hate it for attractions and they say they will, but no one hates an abstraction. >>You don't actually turn the crank in your motor to make the car run. You press the accelerator and it goes. Yeah. Um, so we need to figure out the correct attractions and we do that through iteration and failure, but I'm liking that people are pushing the boundaries and uh, like Joe beta and Kelsey Hightower said is that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. It is basically an API for writing API APIs. Let's take advantage of that and write API APIs. All right. Well, Brian, thank you. Thank Vicky. Uh, please, uh, you know, share, congratulations to the team for everything done here. And while you might be stepping down as, or we do hope you'll come and join us back on the cube at a future event. No, I enjoyed talking to you all, so thank you. Alright, thanks so much Brian for Justin Warren we'll be back with more of our water wall coverage. CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. Thanks for watching the queue.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNative Con brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Kubecon CloudNative Con here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host is Justin Warren. And one of the things we always love to do is really dig in to some of the customer use cases. And joining us to do that, Andrey Rybka, who's the head of Compute Architecture and the CTO Office at Bloomberg. Andrey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, so just to set the stage, last year we had your colleague Steven Bauer, came, talked about your company's been using Kubernetes for a number of years. You're a member of the CNCF as one of those end users there and you're even an award winner. So, congratulations on all the process. You've been doing if for years, so all the problems, I'm sure are already solved, so now we just have a big party, right? >> Yes, well I'm mean certainly we are at the stage where things are quite mature and there's a lot of workloads that are running Kubernetes. We run Kubernetes on-premises. Steven has an excellent data sense platform that does machine learning with GPUs and bare metal. We also have a really excellent team that runs basically Platform as a Service, generic Platform as a Service, not GPUs but effectively runs any kind of stateless app or service and that's been extremely successful and, you know there's a lot interest in that. And we also run Kubernetes in Public Cloud. So, a lot of workloads for like Bloomberg.com, actually are backed now by Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so we want to spend a bunch of time talking about the applications, the data, the services, that you've built some PaaS's there. Yes, so step us back for a second if you would, and give us the, What led to Kubernetes? And as you said, you've got your on-premises environment, you've got Public Cloud, where was that when you started and what's the role of Kubernetes and that today? >> Sure, we started back in 2015, evaluating all kinds of sort of container orchestration platforms. It's very clear that developers love containers for its portability and just the ability to have the same environments that runs kind of on-premises or on your laptop and runs on the actual deployment environment, the same thing, right? So, we looked at Mesos, Marathon, Cloud Foundry, even OpenShift before it was Kubernetes. And we, in no specific order continuously evaluate all different options and once we make a decision, we recommend to the engineering team and work in partnership with engineers. So all of those awards and everything, actually I want to say, that this is really a kudos to our engineering team. We just a small part of the puzzle. Now as far as like how we made the Kubernetes selection, it was a bit risky. We started with a pre-alpha version and you know I read the Borg paper, how Google actually did Borg. And when I sort of realized, well they're trying to do the same thing with Kubernetes. It was very clear, this is kind of, you know we're going to build on mature experience, right. So, some what it was risky but also a safe bet because you know there was some good computer science and engineering behind the product. So we started alpha version, they're consumer web groups actually were one of the first deployments of there kind of Kubernetes and they present them at the first Kubecon. It was an excellent talk on how we did Kubernetes and you know we came a long way since then. We've got sort of now, probably about 80 to 100 clusters running and you know, they run full high availability, DR -1. I would say it is one of the most reliable environments that we have, you know. We have frequently, you know infrastructure outages, hypervisors, you know, obviously hardware fails, which is normal, and we rarely see any issues and actually you know no like any major issues whatsoever. So, the things we expected out of Kubernetes, the things like reliability, elastic infrastructure, auto-scaling, the multi-tenancy it all worked out. Higher density of sort of packing the nodes, you know that's another great sort of value add that we expected but now we finally realizing that. >> So, one question I've had from a lot of customers, particularly traditional enterprises who are used to doing things and have a lot of virtual machine infrastructure. They're looking at Kubernetes but they're finding it somewhat opaque, a little bit scary. Talk us through, How did you convince the business that this was the choice that we should make and that we need to change the way that we're developing applications and deploying applications and we want to do this with Kubernetes? How did you convince them that this was going to be okay in the end? >> Yes, yes, that's a really good question. A lot of people were scared and you know they were, is this going to break things or you know is this just a shiny new thing. And there was a lot of education that had to occur. We've shown a lot of POCs now. The way we exposed Kubernetes was not just like raw Kubernetes. We actually wanted to keep it safe, so we sort of stayed away from some, like more alpha type of workloads and moved towards kind of like the more stable things. And so, we exposed it Platform as a Service. So, the developers did not actually get to necessarily like kubectl you know, apply a config and just deploy the app. We actually had a really good sort of offering where we had kind of, almost like Git-flow kind of environment where you have, you know your source control, then you have CICD pipeline and then once it goes through all those check and balances, you deploy your containers. So from that perspective, we actually hid quite a bit of things that made things a bit dangerous or potentially a little bit more complicated. And that's proven to be the right strategy because right now as far as the reliability I would say this is probably one of the most reliable environments that we have. And this is by design, you know. We basically tell the developers, by default you're supposed to run at least two replicas at least two Data Centers by default or two, you know, regions or two availability zones, and you can't change that. There's some people who are asking me like can I just deploy just in one Data Center, I'm like, I'm sorry, no. Like by default its like that. And auto-scaling on so if one Data Center goes and you need DR -1, so if you started with two minimum replicas then it auto-scales to four or whatever that will be set. So, you know, I think we've basically put a prototype of a proof of concept relatively fast. And We've got with the initial Platform as a Service, you know from zero to actual delivery in about three months. A lot of building blocks were there and we just put kind of the pieces of the puzzle together. >> All right, that does echo a lot of the discussion that was at had in the keynote today, even was about looking at making Kubernetes easier to consume, essentially by having all of these sensible defaults like you mentioned. You will have two replicas. It will run in these two different zones. And kind of removing some of that responsibility for those decisions from the developers. >> Andrey: Yes. >> How does that line up with the idea of DevOps which seems to be partly about making the developers a bit more responsible for their service and how it runs in production. It sounds like you've actually taken a lot of that effort away from them by, we've done all this work for you so you don't have to think about that anymore. >> I mean a little bit of background, we have about 5,500 engineers. So, expecting everybody to learn DevOps and Kubernetes is not realistic, right? And most developers really want to write applications and services that add business value, right? Nobody wants to really manage networking at the lower level, you know there's a lot of still complexity in this environment, right? So, you know, as far as DevOps, we've built shared kind of teams that have basically like, think of like centralized SRE teams that build the core platform components. We have a world class kind of software infrastructure group which builds those type of components. On top of the sort of, the technology infrastructure team that caters to the hardware and the virtualization infrastructure built on OpenStack. So you know, there is very much kind of a lot of common services/shared services teams that build that as a platform to developers and that is how we can scale. Because, you know, it's very hard to do that if every team is just sort of duplicating each one of those things. >> So Andrey, let's talk a little bit about your application portfolio. >> Andrey: Sure. >> Bloomberg must have thousands of applications out there. >> Andrey: Yes, yes. >> From what you were describing, is this only for kind of net new applications. If I want to use it I have to build something new, replacing something else or, or can you walk us through kind of what percentage is on this platform today and how is that migration or transition? >> And some is not net new, we actually did port quite a bit of the sort of the classic Bloomberg services that developers expect to the platform. And it's seamless to the developers. So, we've been doing quite a bit of sort of Linux migration meaning from like things like Solaris, AIX, and this platform was built purposefully to help developers to migrate their services. Now, they're not sort of lift and shift type of migrations. You can't just expect the, you know classic C++ shared memory app suddenly like jump and start being in containers, right? So there is some architectural changes, differences that had to be done. The type of applications that we see, you know, they're just sort of microservices oriented. Bloomberg has been around since 1981 and they've been doing service-oriented architecture since like early 90s. So, you know, things were already kind of in services kind of framework and mentality. And before, you know we had service matches, Bloomberg had its own kind of paradigm of service matches. So, all we do is kind of retro-fit the same concepts with new frameworks. And what we did is we brought in sort of like a new mentality of open source first. So, most new systems that we built, we look for kind of what about if you know, we look for open source components that can fit in this particular problem set. So there applications that we have right now, we have quite a bit of data services, data transformation pipelines, machine learning, you know, there's quite a bit of the machine learning as far as like the actual learning part of training, and then there is the inference part that runs quite a bit. We have quite a few of accounting services, like, I mentioned Bloomberg.com, and many sort of things that you would normally think of like accounting delivery services that run on Kubernetes. And I mean, at this point, we certainly try to be a little bit conscious about stateful services, so we don't run as much of databases and things like that. Eventually, we will get there once we prove the reliability and resiliency around the stateful set in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, do you have an estimate internal or goals as to what percentage your applications are on this platform now and a roadmap going forward? >> I mean, it's hard to say but going forward, I see majority of all services migrating to Kubernetes because for us, Kubernetes is become an essentially standardized compute fabric. You know, one thing that we've been missing, you know, a lot of open source projects deliver, you know virtualized infrastructure. But, you know, that's not quite enough, right. You need other sort of concepts to be there and Kubernetes did deliver that for us. And more importantly, it also delivered us kind of a, almost like a multi-cloud strategy, you know, kind of accidentally because, you know none of the cloud providers have any standard APIs of any source, right? Like, so even if use Terraform, that's not necessarily multi-cloud, it's just like you got to write HCO for each cloud provider. In Kubernetes, more or less, that becomes kind of a really solved problem. >> So which, what flavor of Kubernetes are you using? Do you leverage any of the services from the Public Cloud on Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I mean, excellent question. So, you know we want to leverage managed offerings as much as possible because things like patch and the security of you know, CVE's, and things like that, I want somebody to take care of that for me and harden things, and out of the box. So, the key to our multi-cloud strategy is use managed offering but based on open source software. So if you want to deploy services, deploy them on Kubernetes as much as possible. If you want to use databases, use manage database but based on the open source software, like Postgres, or MySQL. And that makes it affordable, right, to an extent, I mean, there's going to be some slight differences, but I do believe that managed is better than if I'm going to go and bootstrap VM's and manage my own control plane and the workers and things like that. >> Yeah, and it is a lot of additional work that I think organizations genuinely did try to roll their own and do everything themselves. There's a lot more understanding since the advent of cloud essentially that actually making someone else do this for what is essentially the undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you can get someone else to do that for you, >> Andrey: Absolutely >> it's a much better experience. Which is actually what you've built with the Kubernetes services for your developers. You are becoming that managed service for your app developers. I think a few enterprise organizations have tried to do that a little bit with centralized IT. They haven't quite got that service mentality there where I'm the product owner and I need to create something which my developers find is valuable to use so that they want to use it. >> This is exactly spot on. When I joined Bloomberg six years ago, one of the things we wanted to do is effectively offer a Public Cloud like services on-premises and now we're there. We actually have a lot of managed offerings whether you want Kafka as a service, queuing as a service, or you know, cache as a service, or even Kubernetes but not necessarily we want to expose Kubernetes as a service, we want to expose Platform as a Service. So, you hit the nail on the head because effectively developers want kind of the same things that they see in the Public Cloud. I want you know, function as a service, I want lambda something like this. Well, that's a type of Platform as a Service. So, you're spot on. >> Yeah, Andrey, last question I have for you. You know, you talked about the maturity of the managed offerings there, something we've seen a lot this year is the companies that, How am I going to manage across, you know, various environments? There we saw, you know, Microsoft with Azure, or VMware with Honzu, what do you think of that? Is that something that interests you or anything else in the ecosystem that you still think needs to mature to help your business? >> Sure, sure, I mean, I think that the use cases they're trying to address are definitely near and dear to my heart. Because we are trying to be multi-cloud. And in order to be truly mature multi-cloud sort of company, we need to have sort of mature kind of multi-cloud control plane. That has kind of the deployment address, ACD pipeline address than it need to address security, not just day one but day two, a load and monitoring and all of you know, if I were just to have three different portals to look at, it is very complicated, you're going to miss things. I want one pane of glass, right. So, what this company is addressing is extremely important and I see a lot of value in it. Now from my point of view, in general, what we prefer if it was an open source project that we could contribute and we could collaborate on, we still want to pay money for the support and what not, we don't want to just be free riders, right? But if it's an open source product and we can be part of it, it's not just read-only open source, that is definitely something that I would be very much interested in participating. And majority of the developers that we have are very happy to participate in open source. I think you seen some of our contributors here. We have some people contributing to Kubeflow. There's many other projects, we have quite a bit of cube projects like the case engineering with powerfulseal. If somebody wants to check it out, we've got some really interesting things. >> Andrey, really appreciate you sharing what you and your engineering teams are doing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for all the contributions back to the community. >> Yep. >> For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman back with more of our three day wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative Con. Thank you for watching theCube. (dramatic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to the third day of wall-to-wall coverage here at Kubecon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am your host for the three days of coverage, Stu Miniman. Joining me this morning is Justin Warren. And happy to welcome back to the program, Erin Boyd who's a senior principal software engineer at Red Hat. Erin, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, so we had a chance to catch up in Barcelona on theCUBE there. Storage is definitely one of the faster moving areas of this ecosystem over the last two years. Why don't we start with, really, the event? So, you know, as I said, we're in day three but day zero there were a whole lot of things we had. Some of your peers at Red Hat have talked about OpenShift Commons, but storage, to my understanding had a couple of things going on. Why don't you share with our audience a little bit of that? >> Sure, so we had a SIG face-to-face for Kubernetes, it was probably one of the best attended. We had to cap the number of attendees, so about 60 different people came to talk about the future of Kubernetes in storage, and what we need to be doing to meet our customers' needs. In conjunction with that, there was a parallel session called CNS Days, which is Container Native Storage Days. That event is very customer focused, so I really enjoyed bouncing between the two of them. To go from the hypothetical, programming, architecture view, straight to what customers in the enterprise are looking at and doing, and what their real needs are. >> So from that SIG, can you actually share a little bit of where we are, where some of the requests are? We know storage is never one way to fix it, there's been some debates, there's a couple different ways to do... I mean, traditional storage, you've got block, file, and object. Cloud storage, there are more options in cloud storage today than there was, if I was to configure a server, or buy a storage array in my own data center. So where are we, what are those asks? What's on the roadmap there? >> Right, so I think for the past five years, we've been really focused on being mindful of what APIs are common across all the vendors. I think we want to ensure that we're not excluding any vendors from being part of this ecosystem. And so, with that, we've created the basis of things like persistent volumes, persistent volumes claims, storage classes to automate that, storage quotas to be able to have management and control over it. So I think now we're looking to the next evolution of... As the model's maturing, and people are actually running stateful applications on Kubernetes, we need to be addressing their needs. So things like snapshotting, eventually volume cloning, which has just gone in, and migrating. All these type of things that exist within the data plane are going to be the next evolution of things we look at in the SIG. >> Yeah, so one criticism that's been mentioned about Kubernetes a few times, that one, it's a bit complicated. But also, it didn't really deal that well with stateful sets. Stateful data management has always been, it's been a little bit lacking. That seems to have pretty much been sorted out now. As you mentioned, there's a lot more work being done on storage operators. But you're talking about some of these data management features that operators from other paradigms are kind of used to being there. When you're thinking about moving workloads to Kubernetes, or putting in new workloads on Kubernetes, if you're unsure about, "Well, will I be able to operate this in the same way that I did things before?" How do you think people should be thinking about those kind of data services in Kubernetes? >> So I think it's great that you mentioned operators. Because that was one of the key things when Rook came into the landscape, to be able to lower the complexity of taking something that requires physical storage and compute, geography, node selection. All those things, it helped people who were used to just the cloud model. I create a PVC, it's a request for storage, Amazon magically fulfills it. I don't know what's backing it. To be able to take these more complex storage systems and deploy them within the ecosystem, it also does a good job supporting our Brownfield customers, because not every customer that's coming to Kubernetes is green. So it's important that we understand that some customers want to keep their data on-prem, maybe burst to the cloud to leverage those services, but then keep their data close to home. So operators help facilitate that. >> Yeah, Erin, I hesitate a little bit to ask this, but I'm wondering if you can do a little compare, contrast for us, for what the industry had done back in OpenStack days? When I looked at storage, every traditional storage company certified their environment for OpenStack. On a storage standpoint, it feels like a different story to me when I hear about the ecosystem of operators in OpenStack. So I know you know this space, so maybe you can give us a little bit of what we learned in the past. What's similar, what's different? >> Right, well I think one of the benefits is we have a lot of the same key players. As you may know, OpenShift has pivoted from Gluster to Ceph, Ceph being the major backer of OpenStack. So we're able to take some of that technical debt, and learn our lessons from things we could improve, and apply those things within Kubernetes. I just think that it's a little slower migration, because in OpenStack, like you said, we had certification, there were different drivers. And we're trying to learn from, maybe, I wouldn't even call those mistakes, but, how can we better automate this? What can we do from an operational perspective to make it easier? >> Well I think because one of the... It felt like we were kind of taking some older models and... I'm testing it, I'm adding it. The ecosystem for operators here is different. Many of these, we're talking very much software-driven solutions. It's built for container architectures, so it's understandable that it might take a little bit longer because it's a different paradigm. >> Right, well, and I think the certification kind of... It wasn't an inhibitor but it certainly took a lot of time. And I think our take was on... We used to have all the storage providers be entry providers within Kubernetes. And with CSI, we have since started to redo the plugins and the sidecars, and move that out of core. So then the certification kind of falls outside of that instead of being more tightly wound into the platform. And I think it will allow us to have a lot more flexibility. Instead of waiting on each release, vendors can create operators, certify them themselves, have them in their own CSI driver, and move at the pace that they need to move. >> So how do you balance that need for Kubernetes to be a common operating platform that people can build on with each vendor's desire to provide their own unique capabilities that they think that they do particularly well? That's why they charge the money that they do, because they think that theirs is the best storage ever. How do you balance that tension between the need for a standard platform and to make it interoperable, but still allowing the flexibility for people to have their own kind of innovation in there? >> So when we created the storage class, for instance, to be able to create a service level over storage, to be able to provide the provisioner that we're going to use, we made the specification of that section completely opaque. And what that allowed us to do is that when vendors wrote their provisioners and now their CSI drivers, allowed them to feed in different attributes of the storage that they want to leverage, that don't necessarily have to be in core Kubernetes. So it provided a huge amount of flexibility on that. The other side of that, though, is, the feeback we get from real users is "I need backup and recovery, and I need DR, and I need that across the platform." So I really think as we look to scale this out, we have to be looking at the commonalities between all storage and bringing those APIs into Kubernetes. >> One of the things I've really liked to see in this ecosystem over the last year or so, and really highlighted at this show, we're talking a lot more about workloads and applications and how those... What works today and where we're growing. Can you speak a little bit from your world as to where we are, what's working great, what customers are deploying, and a little bit, the road map of where we still need to go? >> Sure, I think workloads are key. I mean, I think that we have to focus on the actual end-to-end delivery of that, and so we have to figure out a way that we can make the data more agile, and create interfaces to really enable that, because it's very unlikely that an enterprise company is going to rely on one cloud or stay with one cloud, or want their data in one cloud. They're going to want to have the flexibility to leverage that. So as we enable those workloads, some are very complex. We started with, "Hey, I just want to containerize my application and get it running. Now I want to have some sort of state, which is persistent storage, and now I want to be able to scale that out across n number of clusters." That's where the workloads become really important. And long term, where we need policy to automate that. My pod goes down, I restart it, it needs to know that because of, maybe, the data that that workload's producing, it can only stay in this geographical region. >> Yeah, we talk about multicloud. You mentioned data protection, data protection is something I need to do across the board. Security is something I need to do across the board. My automation needs to take all that into account. How's Red Hat helping customers get their arms around that challenge? >> Yeah, so I think Red Hat really does take a holistic view in making sure that we provide a very consistent, secure platform. I think that's one of the things that you see when you come on to OpenShift, for instance, or OKR, that you're seeing security tightened a little bit more, to ensure that you're running in the best possible way that you can, to protect your data. And then, the use of Rook Ceph, for instance, Ceph provides that universal backplane, where if you're going to have encryption or anything like that, you know it's going to be the same across that. >> It sounds like there's an opportunity here for people new to Kubernetes who have been doing things in a previous way. There's a little bit of reticence from this community to understand enterprise, they're like, "Well, actually, you're kind of doing it wrong. It's slow and inflexible." There's actually a lot of lessons that we've learned in enterprise, particularly around these workloads. Having security, having backup in DR. In the keynote this morning, there was a lot of discussion about the security that either is in Kubernetes, and some parts it's kind of lacking. I think there's a lot that both of these communities can learn from each other, so I'm seeing a lot of moves of late to be a little bit more welcoming to some people who are coming to Kubernetes from other ecosystems. To be able to bring the ideas that they have that... We've already learned these lessons before, we can take some of that knowledge and bring it into Kubernetes to help us to do that better. Do you see Red Hat bringing a lot of that expereience in its work... Red Hat's been around for quite some time now, so you've done a lot of this already. Are you bringing all of that knowledge into Kubernetes and sharing it with the ecosystem? >> Absolutley, and just like Stu pointed out, I mean, OpenStack was a big part of our evolution, and security within RHEL, and I think we absolutely should take those lessons learned and look to how we do protect our customers' data, and make sure that the platform, Kubernetes itself and as we evolve OpenShift, can provide that, and ways that we can certify that. >> Erin, you're meeting with a lot of customers. You were talking about the Day Zero thing. What's top of mind for your customers? We talk about, that Kubernetes has crossed the chasm but to get the vast majority, there's still lots of work to do. We need to, as an industry, make things simpler. What's working well, and what are some of the challenges from the customers that you've talked to? >> So I think, if you walk in, across the hall, and you see how many vendors are there, it's trying to get a handle on what I should even be doing. And as the co-lead of the CNCF Storage SIG, I think that's one of the initiatives that we take very seriously. So in addition to a storage whitepaper, we've been working on use cases that define, when should I use a data store? When should I use object? Why would I want to use file? And then really taking these real-world examples, creating use cases and actual implementations so someone can, "Oh, that's similar to my workload." Here are some tools to accelerate understanding how to get that set up. And also creating those guard rails from an architectural standpoint. You don't want to go down this path, that's not right for your workload. So we're hoping to at least provide an education around containerized storage that'll help customers. >> Yeah, I'm just curious. I think back ten years ago, I was working for a large storage company. We were having some of these same conversations. So is it very different now in the containerized, multicloud world? Or are some of the basic decision tree discussions around block, file, and object and application the same as we might have been having a decade ago? >> I think we're starting to just touch on those, and I'm glad that you brought up object. That was one of the things I talked about in Barcelona, and we actually talked about at the face-to-face. To me, it's kind of the missing piece of storage today in Kubernetes, and I think we're finally starting to see that more customers are asking for that and realizing that's an important workload to be able to support at its core. So I think, yes, we're having the same conversations again, but certainly in a different context. >> Yeah, I mean, back in the day, it was, the future is object but we don't know how we'd get there. If you look behind the scenes in most public clouds, object's running a lot of what's there. All right, Erin, I want to give you the final word. KubeCon 2019, from that storage perspective. What should people watching take away? >> That we're only beginning with storage, yeah. We still have a lot of work to do, but I think it's a wonderful community and vibrant, and I think there'll be a lot of changes in the coming years. >> All right. Well, definitely a vibrant ecosystem. Erin, thank you so much for all the updates. We'll be back with more coverage here, for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. And a special segment, we're actually going to doing our 2020 predictions. I am Stu Miniman, joining me, my two co-hosts of the week. To my left is Justin Warren, who I believe's been to, you went to the first one? >> I've been to all four, yeah. >> All four of the North America shows. >> Yep. >> I personally have been now to three of the North American, as well as one in the Barcelona. And we have a first time KubeConner, but long time host of theCUBE and things, John Troyer to my right. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. So first thing, the rapid fire. 12,000 in attendance. Last year 8,000, the year before 4,000. So, my math says that it will be 16,000 when we come next year to beautiful November in Boston, Massachusetts, which I can drive to. We've had snow in Austin, rain in San Diego. So, I'm predicting 60 to 70 degree weather in Boston, 'cause that never happens in Boston. Number of attendees next year, Justin? >> Well, it was doubling and now they have dropped it to 50%, so I reckon another 50%, I'll reckon 18 to 20,000. >> Stu: Oh, John? >> Yeah, I'll go higher. That many plus one. >> Okay, I feel like we'll do, I bet $1, $1. But, okay-- >> We have not hit peak Kubernetes yet. >> No. >> We definitely have not hit peak Kubernetes. One of the things, I keep looking for the theme of the show, and one of the things, we've been talking in some of the segments, is there needs to be simplification. When we talk about where we're at with cloud adoption, when we talk about some of these environments, there is a broad ecosystem. So, there needs to be some winnowing down of the technologies. We've seen some areas where things like MicroK8s and K3s to be able to be able to put Kubernetes at the edge. It's not that, that will replace Kubernetes, but things need to get simpler in some environments. Justin, I'll throw it to you first. Is simplification the theme of the show, is there something else that's grabbing you? >> The theme for me is that the money has arrived. We saw a little bit of that last year but this year it is definitely just the number of sponsors that we have here, the number of startups that we have here, the ecosystem, the number of parties, the VCs are here. This feels like a lot of other technology shows that we've been to before in their hay day. We are right here in the hay day of Kubernetes. So, I can see it getting bigger. Will there be consolidation? Yes, I think there will. But I think that this is going to broaden out further first. I don't think that we're quite at the point where things need to start collapsing in. I think we're still going to be exploring all the different options that we have. I think the theme is simplification, yes, I agree. But it's now going to be people trying to solve that problem by creating these higher-level services, managed-Kubernetes offerings. A lot of the different component projects that are there, we're going to see a lot of options where they try to manage that for you and make it easier to consume. But there will be several different attempts at that and not all of them are going to survive. >> Yeah, I'll go with you. Simplification's going to be an issue. Has to happen, we saw a lot of different stacks here at the show, if you go out on the show floor. A lot of people are trying to give you a generic platform. A general-purpose platform, maybe it has its own opinionated view of networking, or storage, or management, or security. But at the end of the day we need things on top of the platform. So, I'm hoping next year we see more things on top of the platform, more applications. We saw some big data applications this year. But people are still building engines and I want them to build cars, because not everybody can build the engine. >> Justin: Yes! >> Well, and actually, Justin, a question for you is when we talk about Kubernetes, there's so many people I interview here and they're like, "Well, no, "we know how to build it better than others "and when you want to go across all environments "we should do it." Is that, are we still going to see that for awhile? Or, can we all hold hands, and talk about open source and be able to just manage across all of these environments? >> Well, one of the key founding principles of Kubernetes is that you can operate it the same everywhere. If it's certified Kubernetes, it should function the same, no matter who's build of it it is. So, that just provides us a common platform that we then build on top of. So, I think the main differentiation's going to be on things like the tooling and the services that allow you to operate that base layer of Kubernetes. But that base layer of Kubernetes is about interesting as Ethernet. It's extremely pluggable and it's just ubiquitous, but no one really cares which brand of Ethernet you happen to be giving me. I care about all the stuff that I run on it. And that's what I think that we're going to see a lot more, I'm with you, John. We're going to see a lot more of those services. I'm seeing a bunch of startups at this show that are starting on that journey, they're providing a lot of things like database services, very highly-tuned monitoring and measurement telemetry systems. There's a big push to make sure that there is a certain amount of interoperability between these different services. Things like having open telemetry be the standard for sending telemetry information around. Because everyone knows that if we all build to Ethernet we're all going to have a much better time of it, than if we all start trying to come up with our own version of it and call it Banyan VINES, and FidoNet, and God knows what. >> Okay, I'm glad you brought up the example of Ethernet. First of all, I have no problem watching a 45-minute discussion of what 400 Gig's going to look like, and the challenge and the opportunities. And if you are talking Ethernet in someone's data center, for the most part they're going to run that on a single vendor because while there is interoperability, it's not until I go to the Internet, because layer two, I want to keep it single vendor, when I go layer three I want to do that. Is that, maybe it's not the best analogy but Kubernetes-- >> No, I think that's reasonable. And if you're trying to operate something across different environments then it's much easier if the two environments can talk to each other. Simple example that people tend to forget about is M&A. If one company goes and buys another one and I run Banyan VINES and you run, I don't know, FinLand or something, then we can't talk to each other, and integrating those two companies becomes impossible. But at least if we both have, you might have Juniper, I might have Cicso, those two network sets can still talk to each other. You might be running, I don't know ,Mesosphere, and someone else might be running Mirantis or Rantia, and that's their system for operating Kubernetes. Turns out, actually if you can operate it much the same, one of you can decide, you know what, we're going to operate everything with Rantia, 'cause we think that that's going to be the best thing for the holistic company. You may keep them separate. As long as you get the same outcome then it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah, that's why I think we aren't yet at peak Kubernetes. Those Kubernetes skills that are in high demand from a job market that people are being upskilled on, they're actually still going to be useful. Now, these stacks that these opinions that people are doing. I mean, they want us to talk about people over projects, right? That's a great philosophy, this is a very friendly community, it's very open source. But, cynically, I think, and sometimes people swap your company T-shirt for your project T-shirt that your company is the one that's behind. And that's kind of a, that's a little bit of a bait and switch. Yes, it's an open source stack. Yes, all the major vendors have open source, 100% open source stacks around Kubernetes. But they're all with different projects and they all pick their own projects. So, I think that is yet to be resolved. >> Well, it's interesting 'cause the thing that I heard is it used to be open source was something that people contribute to it. Now, the majority of people that contribute to open source do it as part of their job. So, there is some of that. Yes, I'm paid by company X, but my job is to participate in the community. There is a large company that got bought by $34 billion. They have a lot of contributors out there. Their job is open source, they are on those projects, they might switch from one project to another. We had Kelsey Hightower on today, he's like, "Hey, right, "but we need to think of people above project. "It's okay for them to move from one to the other "between projects or between companies." But, right, it is very much often companies that are behind the scenes and pushing people and dollars into these projects. One thing I like about the CNCF here is we do have, there's 129 end-user companies participating here, so we've reached a certain maturity level that they are driving it, not just companies driving it for the dollars. So, I guess the thing I want to ask though is, there's so many companies here, we started off the conversation this week, John, talking about Docker. And the cautionary tale of how many companies, when I asked, "What is your business model, what do you do?" Is, I created some cool new project. What does that mean? You look at the business model. You live right with Silicon Valley there. What are you seeing as you look forward? What do you expecting to see consistently? >> Oh sure, I mean, half the logos will be gone but they'll be swapped out for other logos, so that's all fine, right? If you have a point solution, as I was kind of pointing out, things are kind of stackifying. So, things need to consolidate from a buyer's perspective. A lot of the sessions here were about custom projects that people did, either in-house or for a customer. So, I think that's okay, that's the natural, it's the natural Cambrian explosion and then die off. >> Yep, creative destruction. (John laughing) That's the general point of how we do things. There's a lot of things that are basically a feature and you can't really build a company behind a feature. They're hoping that they will find some sort of pathway to money, we've seen some big acquisitions where they didn't really find a good route to money. That's fine, people will figure that out. And how you fund this development, Stu, I mean that's the perennial problem. At the moment it's possibly not the perfect solution but it's a pretty good one, in that we have developers are employed by a company that pays them to develop open source software. So, anyone can go and grab that software and then use it. So, we don't actually really depend on that company sticking around. >> And enterprise sales, it's still very expensive to have even a small booth here, and three or four people and nice T-shirts, and all of your swag, and you flew them here. And fly them all around the country to company after company, conference room after conference room. That is an expensive model to sell things. I mean, you need to have a fair amount of revenue. >> All right, so, Justin, a lot of progress, a lot of projects. >> Yeah. >> What's missing? Look out for 2020, is there an area or a space that needs to mature or needs work? What's your advice for this ecosystem? >> Well, for me it's all about the data. So, we've seen a lot of evolution in stateful sets and being able to manage state-based data within the Kubernetes ecosystem, a lot of progress on that, but there's still a long, long, long way to go. Also, just on the general operational tooling. So, the things that we are used to and have taken for granted in other traditional, like vSphere, or we've come from the VMware ecosystem. Simple things like higher availability. So, I need my data to always be available and I need to be able to have this managed. There's a lot of stuff in there but there's still a lot more stuff that needs to happen. Service mesh and that service discovery and making that easy enough for normal mortal humans to deal with, that still really isn't there. You kind of have to be a bit of a super genius to configure that and get it working and operating. So, there's still a lot of very hard work on these quite hard problems, to then make it look simple. >> Yeah, so, John, the one I want to throw to you is Dan Kohn came out on the keynote stage yesterday and he said, "Kubernetes has crossed the chasm, "yet most enterprises are still worried "about software failure." We know many people that are coming in new and shell-shocked when they come to look. What does the industry as a whole and this ecosystem, specifically, need to do to make sure that we don't come a year from now and say, "Wow, things slowed down "because we kind of couldn't get "the vast majority of people on board?" >> Well, I mean, we're going back to, I guess then the same thing, things have to be simpler. In times of uncertainty people either stop or they go to a trusted provider. There is, probably, although there's a high value on Kubernetes skills right now, that also means there's not enough folks. So, if you can't get the engineers. That was a problem in previous generations of some of these stacks, in that if you couldn't get enough engineers, or if the stack, if everybody had their own snowflake version of it and the skills were not transferable you could not move forward. So, I'm hoping we'll see more managed service providers. I'm hoping that we'll see more startups and services built on top of these existing infrastructures, I think we're seeing more of those. I see a lot of stuff in the operations space and kind of the SRE space, the incident management space. Kind of all the tooling you'll need to actually run these things in day two and beyond. And then, hopefully, the industry keeps pounding on digital transformation and process transformation. One project at a time, you start with one, you start small, you start tooling, you start tooling up, you get some small things under your belt and start to learn. But that's enterprise timeline. So, at a certain speed. >> All right, last thing, any aha moments, surprises, cool things as you've been going around the show? Justin? >> Oh, just walking into the show surprised me. Just how big it has gotten and how much energy there is here. It's amazing to me and I can just only see it getting bigger and, I hope, better. I am surprised by the reaction from people who haven't come into the Kubernetes ecosystem, I think. There's still a lot of people out there for whom this is a big surprise. That it's as big a show as this is, there are lots and lots of people out there who can't actually spell Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of work for us to go and do to figure out how we get those people to come into this ecosystem in a way that doesn't shock them and scare them away. >> Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to the party, those of you that had been joined. John? >> Hey, the thing that surprised me was this is both a multicloud show and a non-cloud show. This is the only show where people working in multiple public clouds can come together. So, that's one of the systemic forces causing it to grow. On the other hand, this is not a public cloud-only show. Over and over again, we talk to people here on theCUBE, I talk to people on the show floor, and most of their workloads, or many of their workloads, are on-premises, right? Kubernetes is fully functional and fully up to speed in private cloud, in people's data centers because it is useful. And they're starting to do that process tooling and process re-engineering, even on-site. And then they may be using a portfolio of different clouds. So, I think that was one of the surprising things to me is this was not 100% public cloud show. >> Yeah, and a little bit of caution I'll give there is we want to make sure we don't become complacent and say, oh, well, we could just kind of slide in what we were doing before and not make some change because the driver here, we've been talking about for decades now, was really kind of that application modernization. And Kubernetes and this whole, it is about cloud-native. It's not the Kubernetes, it's the cloud-native piece. >> You know what I didn't hear? I did not hear putting legacy apps on Kubernetes as much this year. Much quieter this year. >> So, and I'll just say, I'll highlight, we did an interview yesterday with the American Red Cross. Tech For Good, it's something that we've been highlighting, John, for especially helping lead the charge and make sure we highlight that. The Microsoft show, they very much talked about that this year. American Red Cross is saying, hey, we always want your dollars but we'd also love your skillset. So, if this community, and specifically Kubernetes, cloud-native ecosystem makes it easier. There's common tooling, something that I've been hearing a lot this year is when I go through that modernization I can hire the next-generation workforce. There's too many of those, oh, I'm doing it the old way. If I don't have somebody with 30 or 40 years experience in the industry, you won't understand our systems and we need that next generation of workforce to be able to get involved. So, love future jobs, Tech For Good, all good things. This community's always been strong on diversity and inclusion. And so, I guess final word I'll say, big shout-out to, of course, the CNCF, this event, they have a large menagerie that they need to take in here and manage, and they're doing a good job. There's always things to work on. They are listening and open. We have really appreciated the partnership. A huge shout-out, of course, to our sponsors that make it possible for us to do this. So, for Justin Warren, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much. We definitely are excited for one more day. Tomorrow, as well as next year in 2020, Amsterdam and Boston. Please reach out always if you have any questions. And thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman. He is Justin Warren and our guest for this segment, a cube alumni VJ pan day, who's the vice president and CTO of cloud inside Cisco. Also on the keynote stage this morning. Be joined. Thanks so much for joining us again. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. All right, so, uh, we've got to see the sequel on stage. Uh, network. Please evolve. Part two. Uh, there were magnets involved. Uh, there were some XKCD Keke humor in there, which, uh, definitely this audience appreciates it. Um, but part to come on the networking industry is known for its lightening fast changes. Um, Oh, maybe I'm thinking of this ecosystem, but um, it could give her audience a little bit of a taste of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the premise, uh, of, of what you were talking about. >>Absolutely. I think, uh, so back in Barcelona I talked about how networking needed to evolve for a cloud native environment and the whole idea behind that talk was we've gone from physical infrastructure, which we call infant one dot Oh two virtual, which is in for two Dato. And in that transition, really nothing much changed except taking everything that was physical or even in the application space, taking monolithic apps and just wrapping everything up in a VM. And that was okay because you got a few things around a agility, you got disaster recovery, you got a few aspects that you would like. But largely things are monolithic largely, especially on the networking side, things were still being touted as routers or via routers, switches or switches, mr music, BGP and so on and so forth. Now when you're looking at containers and microservices, and I'm not talking about containers, which are just different shifts, but if you're breaking the application down into microservices or you're using silver less to build your applications, the app is getting thinner and thinner and much more distributed. >>That's where there's a complete reimagining of the application. There's a rearchitecture and because of that, the operational architecture is changing because you can't just have a database admin. The database is now 500 components. So you need your SRE organizations, your DevOps organizations to be aligned to that. You also, and therefore your organization changes because you're following this architecture paradigm shift. Yeah. So when that happens, how can the infrastructure remain the same? So you cannot use the concepts that you've used for physical and virtual networking, which have aggregate statistical networks to solve an application networking problem. Right? >>So w w one of the big challenges there is enterprise especially they've got a lot of applications. >>When you talk about how many of them are modern apps, it's a very small segment. You know, we talk about, Oh, 20% of apps in the cloud. Well how many apps have been modernized? It's a smaller piece of that and we need to have the bridge to the customer in all of the places that they are and are going. And you know, cloud is not a destination. It's, it's an operational model. So how do I, how do I span all of the environment? And embrace them and still keep, keep, everything's moving forward to, to drive the business. That's a good question. So I think if you look at, so to your point, there is a small percentage of apps that are cloud native today. I don't think it's as small as 20% I think it's closer to around 40 but we may differ on that number. >>What we are seeing is that that number is only growing. So that's a trend to watch out for. And the other trend to watch out for is it's not just the mobile front end or the dashboard that's becoming cloud native, which was the case a couple of years ago. You're seeing databases, you're seeing a middleware, you're seeing data processing pipelines, things that are critical to our business, do all of the apps that are getting modernized and becoming cloud native. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is you might have a function that remains and legacy, so to speak and get replaced by a cloud native app that does the same thing. So you might not rewrite it, but you might replace it. So that's happening quite a bit. And so, but to your question, how do you connect all of this, these things together? Cloud native is a philosophy. It's a way of operating an infrastructure is a way of building in the redundancy we have building in velocity. So that philosophy needs to percolate not just the new cloud native apps, but you need to uplift the old infrastructure and let them become cloud native as well. So things that we're doing with an assignment, things that we're doing with the attrition and our dynamic and a whole bunch of efforts within Cisco are geared towards uplifting the older gear on all the infrastructure in order applications. Do a client cloud native operational paradigm. >>Yeah, that's true. You mentioned part of that requires changing the way human behavior works, that it changing the way you operate a lot of this infrastructure. So it's not just about purchasing a particular tool, it's about actually using different tools in completely new and different ways. So what are some of the ways that Cisco is changing the kinds of products that it offers to customers that encourages them to operate their infrastructure in a new way? >>So let me start with the networking piece and since it's fresh and new from the keynote today, uh, one of the things, if you think about again, the developers and how they deal with applications, they want the network to be simple, available and pervasive. And so if you think about this in couple of tiers, so there is a physical infrastructure that sits below everything that is again, pervasive across a multicloud environment. And it goes all the way from your handset to the data center, including the edge compute locations. It connects everything together. So taking a network like that and simplifying it in terms of automation, in terms of how dev ops can handle that networking subsystem, in terms of how do you ensure that policy is consistent across this common environment, that is something that Cisco is pushing pretty deeply. So we have this multi-domain architecture that allows you to push policy across the entire network handset to the data center through the van. >>So that's one aspect of it. But above this sits a platform layer that is closer to the developer. And this is why things like NSM comment, because the developers don't want to deal with the bells and whistles at the physical or the virtual infrastructure layer. They are defining the CRDs. They are defining that if I'm a microservice, I want to talk to another microservice, all of bare metal orders over less function. I just want to connect a to B within my application. I don't care about every other application that exists in your infrastructure. And these are the attributes that I want from that connection. So it's like a watch and Wyatt like a bus and these are the attributes to the bus and that's what we're trying to handle from a cloud native perspective. So that's what you see from the NSM side of things. >>So, uh, we, we just had to go on talking about the database and talking about a cloud native database. And, uh, the way he really describes it is, you know, it's baked into Kubernetes even though Vitez doesn't have to have Coobernetti's. And he said he even had customers that it made it possible for them to be able to, uh, have that database from one cloud to another without needing to talk to his team. Uh, and it's, it's made things possible. Help us understand how the network service mesh fit into solutions like that. >>Absolutely. And I think if you think, I mean, I love the Virtus project they've graduated, so congratulations to them. But I think, uh, the concept behind that is taking the multicloud aspect of everything that we do to a layer which is higher in the stack. So we've talked about multicloud in terms of networking, in terms of compute, uh, in terms of infrastructure primarily, but looking at a database which is multicloud looking at storage, which is multicloud. I think that's the next layer of evolution in this entire stack. But one of the examples that are talked about in my keynote, very simple, but as, or not retest, it doesn't matter. Something that every organization wants to do is dig databases that are scattered across a multitude of on-prem or a multitude of clouds and just replicate. And to do that replication, the amount of pain that any organization needs to go through today. >>It's just like programming with magnets. Going back to my keynote where you're dealing with the technical complexities of doing this, you're talking to so many routers and switches, you're talking to firewalls, you're talking to colo providers, you're talking to cloud providers and especially every tore provider has their own compliance and configuration paradigms. So all of that being different. That's just the technical complexity within one organization. They like multitudes of teams. They have dev ops, net ops, tech ops, they all need to talk to each other. Even within Cisco we talked to our Cisco ID guys. Just dev ops is like 20 teams. There's not one team. So just imagine talking to all of those teams trying to fix this thing and trying to get just database application, simple problem like that. And then process complexity. So all of those things exist. And with NSM, all you do is say, just put me on the Santa Sam domain that lets me talk securely to every other database on the same domain, wherever they happen to be in a different cluster within the same data center or geographically somewhere else in the globe. I really don't care. And NSM basically takes care of that. So that's the simplicity that we're going after. And it's a simplicity that walks across. There are seven meshes across simple layer three problems like this across service provider use cases across a whole bunch of use cases. >>Hmm. Yeah. And it just, the simple act of moving data around you would think that we'd managed to solve that problem by now, but it turns out it's hard problem to solve and being able to connect this myriad of new services together to one why we have technologies like service mesh is changing the nature of the way we operate it. And, and as you say, putting tools in place to automate a lot of the mechanisms that go on so that we as humans don't have to do it anymore because it's just not attractive or attractable problem for the humans to deal with. And I think a lot of organizations are still wrestling with that concept of, of how they can change the way that they do things so that the humans aren't going to be able to do this. It's not actually a matter of choice. They are going to be going and having, they're going to go and do different things, new and interesting things, but they're going to be at a higher level of abstraction. And I think a lot of people are very concerned by that, that we may not have jobs anymore. No, no, no, you can't have these jobs. It is just not possible for humans to do them. We need to get you to go and do these other new jobs so that we can get on with solving these business problems. >>That's a very good problem point. And I think, uh, so prior to this role I was at Google and I ran the networking infrastructure for a while and then I ended up writing the automation and telemetry stack for running that infrastructure. And one of the things that we used to say back there was, if you are infrastructure depends on humans to scale out, then there aren't enough humans to hire. Even if you have the dollars to invest, there aren't enough humans to hire to fix that problem in a human centric way. So one of the things that we are doing at Cisco for example, is this whole push towards intent based networking. And to me that's an evolution from where SDN was to now where IBM is, because SDN has had these very specific connotations around it with said software defined separation of control and data. >>It gets into this very heated debates about what this is. To me, the answer is actually intent based networking. We did some of that back at Google as well, which is treat the entire network as a singular entity and operated in a very declarative fashion. That's what this is, regardless of whether they're built in a control data separated with all their traditional BGP networks, so we are pushing IBN in a very big way and the whole problem statement there is to your point, humans can't comprehend the complexities that arise. One one, one quick topic where we were sending telemetry data through SNMP, now we are sending telemetry data was the streaming and the amount of data that any operator receives is just through the roof. What are you going to do with it? So humans can't deal with that kind of complexity. So putting formal verification, formal models, formal closed loop automation systems with AI in place. I think that's the only way to go forward at least on large scale networks and on the other side, I think on the application side, like I said, being deep and narrow and being very selfish about the application that you're trying to connect to simplifies the problem because as an app developer I'm only concerned about this particular app and have what it connects to and that is going to attract a book from a human perspective. >>Yes. thank you so much. I think anyone that's attended this conference can definitely agree with that. There is a flood of information that no one person could keep up with. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that, uh, your journey of network please evolve, uh, that we had comes to a successful conclusion in the near future. Absolutely. Look forward to chatting with you again soon for Justin Warren. I am Stu Miniman. Uh, stay tuned. We're going to wrap up day two, and we have a whole nother day tomorrow of our coverage here from CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching the queue.

>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage. Fourth year of Q Khan Cloud native Khan, 2019 Here in San Diego. I am still Minutemen like co host for this afternoon is Justin Warrant and happy to welcome to the program A first time guests, but was on the keynote stage yesterday Sougou Super Marine, who is the co founder and CEO of Planet Scale and also one of the, uh, we're gonna be talking about the test which graduated, announced on the stage. They didn't put a cap and gown or roll everything out, which they did a couple of years ago. But first, thanks so much for joining us. And congratulations. Thank you. All right, so, Sougou, bring us back. You know, we're talking about a cloud native database and we'll dig into that and everything, but bring us back to what you were working on. And you know why of what we now call >>so the When we started with us, we were really not thinking of cloud native itself. for say, it was kind of a sequence of events that kind of forced with us to become cloud native long before cloud native was actually born as even the term was born. Which was when we had to move the test from YouTube on print into Google's board, which use the predecessor off Cooper natives. Um, the reason why the test is kind of one of the leading storage projects in Cloud Native was because it was probably the first project that remained open source, even though we managed to ram it with >>work. Yeah, you know what? One of things we've been talking about at the show here is you know, in the early days, you know, we were very much talking about infrastructure, but we know the reason we have infrastructure is to run applications, and one of the most important applications is databases, and I talk to customers. It's not just one database. Often they have many different databases on, and that is one of the big challenges today. So, you know, you kind of look at that landscape, help us understand how this fits into that. That overall picture. >>Yeah, so that kind of goes back in tow, Google's history and how that can influence kubernetes itself. So if you look at Google's board, most off its features are meant for running stateless application. So within Google, people who wrote applications when they wanted to store state they just called out into a service that was semi part of board but wasn't itself run by board as if you would run your application. So many of those properties were inherited by Cooper natives. So which is the reason why? Um, right from the beginning, it was hard to make storage work for cover natives on Dhe. For that reason, even a zoo recently as early this year, If you look at the tweets from Kelsey Hightower, don't just move your database into communities. You're going to regret it. People still say that, but at the same time, because we test way, we're able to figure out howto make storage work under the stringent rules that Borg had, which was mainly to support stateless applications. In other words, we actually land because, as if it was a stateless application, while still managing while still making state state will not survive this stateless behavior, which is actually why we just managed to be launched within communities as soon as it was born. Ah, but it has been a struggle for other people because they didn't have the luxury of preparing for it without even knowing. Uh so I think that more effort needs to be made on both sides, both from people who are writing storage to make them work with communities as well as kubernetes itself, trying to meet them halfway, trying to add features to help the storage developers. >>It has been a real struggle. I remember from even the very first show I came to four years ago in Seattle looking at the set. My media thing is an ex storage guy and has a backup guy was to go and look at things and say OK, this is lovely for stateless applications, you said. But riel applications have data in them and they need to maintain state. Where's the state looking at all of the group in any type of things, like there were no state full sets with another thing that has changed a lot in four years, and people have come to the party and we need to be able to manage state. But now that you we have a database like a test, isn't that just taking things to the point where I as an app developer, I can just write my stateless application and then my data can live inside a data management service like a test? So I don't actually need to deal with any of that state management problem myself. >>That's what it amounts to. Uh, the the one property of the test is that it can run both in communities and outside. So there are people who run tests on Prem and they have their own orchestration layer. So that has given some challenge where we just cannot depend on communities. You cannot call into communities a p I s o. The way we have the architect of the test is that it knows when it runs within a orchestrated environment, how to interact with it, but it doesn't assume that it exists. So >>why have you provided that functionality? Is that because customers said that I actually want to be able to run the test, But I don't wanna have to deal with kubernetes >>exactly like so not everyone has migrated to communities. It is surprising that everybody wants to migrate communities. But then many of them are saying, I don't know how many years out it is on. Then for them, we just solved a different problem, which is the problem of sheer massive scale ability on dhe for them. They want to be able to still run with us on print s. So for that reason, that is actually a small gap between communities and the test itself. On dhe, we're filling that gap with health charts in the open source on Dhe Planet Scale, which is the company that I founded has built an operator that we're also going to open source so that people can use that to launch community >>before we talk about planet scale You. No, no, no, no. Absolutely. In the keynote you had some customer stories on might might help illustrate some what we're talking about, you know, the scalability of the environment, everything. So you know, I'll let you choose that kind of a short example. You know, the slack One you know, is one that I think president in the audience there. But >>I would choose slack. Ah, Jerry's always obviously enormous, but I will choose slack and nozzle because they represent two very different but really genuine needs in the industry. Slack once not just massive scale, but they want flexibility with manipulating data on DDE. That is something that is manipulating data really, really hard. Onda. We believe that we found the secret sauce to make that work with tests, and that is the reason you saw those statements from Slack. They're so passionate and with so much conviction, that is because they were fascinated by what we could do with their data. So that is one example and slack does not run on communities. They don't run on cloud. They run on AWS, but they don't they run it like they their own claim. They have very fixed I p addresses fixed instance names, but they're on it like a cloud. Sometimes I would say they are more coordinated behavior than some applications that run on kubernetes like they treat everything as disposable. When something goes away, they don't try to recover it or anything destroyed out. Replace it with something new, which is property off cloud native behavior. And on the other hand, a company like nozzle because they're they're actually a startup on dhe. It is surprising that why would the start of one to use? Ah, something that is Mento scale. Massively. That's when we realized that the cloud native nature of it does fills a gap that currently is not filled by many people, which is I want to run everything in Cooper natives all in one. And we didn't realize until they showed us what they did with it, which is, like, completely migrate from one cloud to another. They're a super amazing. And I heard it on dhe. They did that without even telling me are telling anybody in the community because one day I talked to them. They say they are on a key s on. A few days later, I still assumed that they are Nikki s and they know of your booty. Jakey, when did you do this? Oh, we did that last month because we got some really good deal with them, super exciting, >>and that that is a surprising, exactly affected. That's surprising. It is a bit of a concern to me because we hear a lot of talk about multi cloud and the idea of applications being being mobile between different clouds. Data movement is really hot. Exactly. So the fact that someone has actually managed to do that and haven't moved from one community service across to another one is that we find that remarkable because we know it's such a hard problem. But that's one of the great things I think about kubernetes, which is possibly under appreciated, is that it's not that it makes everything easy, but it makes what What used to be hard is now >>possible. Yes, yes, yes, that is very true. Yeah, it's, um uh, like it took It took us a while to, uh, think to make this mind shit, because some of these things, even though they're like it looks, looks looks very obvious. But for the longest time, we were, you're saying, tested for massive scale ability. It's for It's what this and that and even two years ago, up sport came and said, We're going to use the tests for communities orchestration. Weird, but okay, feel free. We don't have a problem with it. And then nozzle came out, and now suddenly you see Oh, this is this is why. And this Saul's really, really difficult problem on. They all did especially hot Spot. Did a lot of work in with tests to actually make it easier. But now we see Now we see the light. >>So Sougou Planet scales the company. Help us understand Vitesse planet scale. How that fits together. What's kind of the business model for your company? >>Yeah. So, um uh, so the test was originally developed at YouTube by you, too. There was one thing That was some pressure. We were beginning to feel when we developed it. We didn't mean for anybody to use it. Really. It was open source, more for academic reasons to show that we can do these things on. But it was interesting when people started adopting it. You're adopting this system. Okay, so we'll see what we can do to help you. But after a while, when the community started growing, some of them were contributing. But definitely storage is a difficult software to write, too. It's not like a pitiful software. Any anybody can understand the cord and start writing. It was obvious that the number of people wanting to use with death and wanting peaches from it are also people that we're not really capable of. writing those features because they're really hard features, too. Right on DDE. That pressure was going and they were saying all I wish you two could do this for me. You know, YouTube is a video company. They're not in the We just did this for ourselves. There's no reason for us to spend so many person years they've left in the future for you. And that time it became obvious that we need to start a company to support this community where there's this huge growing demand, Which is kind of what motivated towards us, uh, thinking about starting planet scale and one requirement waas It cannot remain a YouTube project at that point. So which is why we work it out that way, will actually move it to see NCF. And then I ended up leaving. You do have to start planet scale with my co founder. Then >>so is just from a business standpoint, is that service is on their customers ask for things and fun that that that gets contributed upskirt stream. >>So that was initially what we thought we will do. Initially we thought it was just get out laptops and start helping people that that was our initial thinking. But what we realized was at the same time the industry has shifted towards this new business model which is to actually run everything as a service. And we realized, Oh, my God, years All we have to do is we know how to run with us. You've done it at YouTube. You help people deployed with testing various companies. You know exactly what it takes to run with us. All we have to do is take this. I'm does the service. And that's exactly what people want. Because otherwise, because of the fact that we tested this flexible, it is also extremely complex, too confident because it can run on frame. Then you have to sit all these flags. You runnin carbonate is you said all these flags. So all this has to be managed and we realized, OK, we can manage this and we know exactly how to make it work. And we actually just announced two days ago that our planet scale CNDP Cloud native database is available for people to come in use. >>Well, congratulations on the progress of the business as well as the test graduation and thank you. So much for joining us here on the Cube. Thank you. Alright for Justin Warren. I'm stupid Men. We will be back with more of our day. Two of three days. Whoa! Wall coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching the Cube.

>>live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud. Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem >>Welcome back. This is the cubes. Fourth year of coverage at Q. Khan Cloud, Native Con. We're here in San Diego. It's 2019. I'm stewed. Minutemen, my host for this afternoon is Justin Warren and happy to welcome to guests from the newly minted platinum member of the CNC F Net Up. Sitting to my right is that Baldwin, who is the director of Cloud Native and Communities Engineering and sitting to his right is Rob Bhaskar, who's the product product strategy for Kubernetes. And it's also a board member on the CME CF, thank you both for joining us. Thank you. All right, s O, you know, maybe start with you. You know, uh, you know, companies that No, I've got plenty of history with net up there. What I've been hearing from that up last few years is you know, the Corvette has always been software, and it is a multi cloud world. I've been hearing this message before. Kind of the cloud native Trinity's piece was going, Of course, there's been some acquisitions and met up continuing to go through its transformations if you will s o help us understand kind of net ops positioning in this ecosystem >>in communities. Yes. Okay, so what we're doing is we're building a product that large manage cloud native workloads on top of community. So we've solved the infrastructure problem. And that's kind of the old problem. We're bored to death. Talking about that problem, but we try to do is try to provide a single painting class to manage on premise. Workloads and off permits were close. So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to say it's now more about the AP taxonomy in communities. And then what type of tooling do you build to manage that that application and communities and says what we're building right now? That's where we're headed with hybrid. >>There's a piece of it, though, that does draw from the historical strength of map, Of course. So we're building way have, essentially already in marketing capability that allows you to deploy communities an agnostic way, using pure, open unmodified kubernetes on all of the major public clouds, but also on trump. But over time and some of this is already evident. You'll see it married to the storage and data management capabilities that we draw from the historical NetApp and that we're starting to deploy into those public clouds >>with the idea that you should be able to take a project. So project being the name space, new space, having a certain application in it. So you have multiple deployments. I should be able to protect that name space or that project. I feel to move that and the data goes with it. So they were very data where that's what we're trying to do with our. Our software is, you know, make it very data. Where have that aligned with APS inside of communities, >>So maybe step back for a second. What? One of the one of things we've heard a few times at this show before and was talking about the keynote this morning is it is project over company when it comes to the C N C F Project Project over company. So it's about the ecosystem. The C in C F tries not to be opinionated, so it's okay for multiple projects to fitness face not moving up to a platinum a sponsor level. You know, participant here, Ned. It's got lots of history's in participating and driving standards, helping move where the industry's going. Where doesn't it up? See its position in, you know, the participating in the foundation and participating in this ecosystem? >>Yeah, So great question, actually. Love it. It's for my favorite topic. So I think the way we look at it is oftentimes, project to the extent they become ubiquitous, define a standard a de facto standard, so not necessarily ratified by some standards body. And so we're very interested in making sure that in a scenario where you would employ the standard from a technology integration perspective, our capabilities can can operate as an implementation behind the standard. So you get the distinguishing qualities of our capabilities. Our products in our service is Visa VI or in the context of the standard. We're not trying to take you down a walled garden path in a proprietary, uh, journey, if you will weigh, would rather actually compel you to work with us on the basis of the value, not necessarily operating off a proprietary set of interface. Kubernetes broadly perceive it as a defacto standard at this point, there's still some work to be done on running out the edges a lot of underway this week. It's definitely the case that there's a new appeal to making this more off herbal by pardon the expression mere mortals way. Think we can offer Cem, Cem, Cem help in that respect as well? >>Yeah, for us, its usability, right? I mean, that's the reason I started stacking. Cloud was that there was usability problem with kubernetes. I had a usability problem. That's what we're trying. That's how I'm looking at the landscape. And I look at kind of all the projects inside the C N c f. And I look at my role is our role is to How do we tie these together? How do we make these? So they're very, very usable to the users. How were engaging with the community is to try to like a line like this, basically pure upstream projects, and create a usability layer on top of that. But we're not gonna we don't want ever say we're gonna fork into these projects what we're gonna contribute back into these. >>That's one concern that I have heard from. Customers were speaking with some of them yesterday. One of the concerns I had was that when you add that manageability onto the base kubernetes layer, that often very spenders become rather opinionated about which way we think this is a good way to do that. And when you're trying to maintain that compatibility across the ecosystem. So some customers saying, Well, I actually don't want to have to be too closely welded to anyone. Vendor was part of the benefit of Kubernetes. I can move my workloads around. So how do you navigate What? What is the right level of opinion? Tohave and which part should actually just be part of a common sense >>should be along the lines of best practices is how we do it. So like, Let's take a number policy, for example, like applying a sane default network policy to every name space defying a saying default pod security policy. You know, building a cluster in the best practices fashion with security turned on hardening done where you would have done this already as a user. So we're not looking you in any way there, so that's we're not trying. I'm not trying to carry any type of opinion in the product we're trying to do is urbanize your experience across all of this ecosystem so that you don't ever have to think about time now building a cluster on top of Amazon. So I gotta worry about how do I manage this on Amazon? I don't want you to think about those providers anymore, right? And then on top of those on top of that infrastructure, I wanna have a way that you're thinking about managing the applications on those environments in the exact same way. So I'm scaling protecting an application on premise in the identical way I'm doing it in the cloud. >>So if it's the same everywhere, what's the value that you're providing? That means that I should choose your option than something else. >>So wait, do have This is where we have controllers and live inside of the clusters that manage this stuff for the user's so you could rebuild what we're doing, But you would have to roll it all by hands, but you could, you know, we don't stand in the way of your operations either. So, like if we go down, you don't go down that idea, but we do have controllers we have. We're using charities. And so, like our management technology, our controllers are just watching for workload to come into the environment. And then we show that in the interface. But you could just walk away as well if you wanted to. >>There's also a constellation of other service is that we're building around this experience, you know, they do draw again from some of the storage and management capabilities. So staple sets your traditional workloads that want to interact with or transact data against a block or a shared file system. We're providing capabilities for sophisticated qualities of persistence that can be can exist in all of those same public clouds. But moreover, over time, we're gonna be in on premises. Well, we're gonna be able to actually move migrate, place, cash her policy. Your put your persistent data with your workload as you move migrate scale burst would repatriate whatever the model is as you move across in between clouds. >>Okay, How how far down that pathway do you think we are? Because 11 criticism of proven it is is that a lot of the tooling that were used to from more traditional ways of operating this kind of infrastructure isn't really there yet. Hence into the question about we actually need to make this easy to use. How far down that pathway away? >>Why would argue that tooling that I've built has already solved some of those problems. So I think we're pretty far down. The people ride down the path. Now what we haven't done is open sourced. You know all my tools, right? To make it easier on everybody else. >>Get up, Scott. Strong partnerships across the cloud platforms. I had a chance to interview George at the Google Cloud event. New partner of the year. I believe some of the stuff help us understand how you know something about the team building. Interact with the public cloud. You look at anthems and azure Arkin. Of course, Amazon has many different ways. You can do your container and management piece there, you know, to talk a little bit of that relationship and how both with those partners and then across those partners, you know, work. >>Yeah, it's a wow. So how much time we have? So so there's certainly a lot of facets to to that, But drawing from the Google experience. We just announced the general availability of cloud volumes on top. So the ability to stand up and manage your own on top instance and Google's cloud. Likewise, we've announced the general availability of the cloud volume service, which gives you manage put fun as a service experience of shared file system on demand. Google, I believe, is either today or yesterday in London. I guess maybe I'll blame that on the time zone covers, not knowing what what day it was. But the point is that's now generally available. Some of those capabilities are going to be able to be connected to our ability from an ks to deploy, uh on demand kubernetes cluster and deploy applications from a market marketplace experience in a common way, not just with Google, but has your with Amazon. And so, you know, frankly, the story doesn't differ a little bit from one cloud to the next, but the the Endeavour is to provide common capabilities across all of them. It's also the case that we do have people that are very opinionated about I want to live only in the Google or that Microsoft of the Amazon, because we're trying to deliver a rich experience for those folks as well, even if you don't value the agnostic multi cloud expert. >>Yeah and Matt, You know, I'm sure you have a viewpoint on this, but you know, it's that skill set that that's really challenging. And I was at the Microsoft show and you've got people you know. It's not just about dot net, there's all that. They're they're embracing and opened all of these environment. But people tend to have the environment that you used to and for multi cloud to be a reality, it needs to be a little bit easier for me to go between them, but it's still we're still we're making progress. But there's work to do. Yeah, s so I just, you know, you know, I know you're building tools and everything, but what what more do we didn't need to do? What were some of the areas that you know you're hopeful for about a >>year before I need to go for the supreme? It's down. It's coming down to the data side like I need to be able to say that on when I turn on data service is inside of kubernetes. I need be able to have that work would go anywhere, right? And because it is a developer. So I have I'm running a production. I'm running an Amazon. But maybe I'm doing test locally on my bare metal environments. Right? I need I want to be able to maybe sink down some of my data. I'm working with a production down to my test environment. That stuff's missing. There's no one doing that right now, and that's where we're headed. That's the path that's where we're headed. >>Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because one of the things that I feel like I heard a little bit last year, but it is violated more this year is we're talking a little bit more to the application to the application developer because, you know, communities is a piece of the infrastructure, But it's about the Colonel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the colonel there. So, you know, how do we make sure you know, we're standing between what the APP developer needs and still making sure that, you know, infrastructure is taken care of because storage and networking they're still hard. >>It is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm approaching. I'm thinking more along the lines of I'm trying to work about app developers personally than infrastructure This point on for me, you know, like so I have I give you a cluster in three minutes, right? So I don't really have to worry about that problem, you know, way also put Theo on top of the clusters. So it's like we're trying to create this whole narrative that you can manage that environment on day one day, two versions. But and that's for like, an I T manager, right? And society instead of our product. How I'm addressing this is you have personas and so you have this concept. You have an I T manager. They do these things that could set limits for the developer who's building the applications or the service's and pushing those up into the environment. They need to have a sense of freedom, right? And said on that side of the house, you know, I'm trying not to break them out of their tooling. So, like wait part of our product ties in to get s o. We have CD, you know? So you just get push, get commit to a branch and weaken target multiple clusters, Right? But no point to the developer, actually, drafty animal or anything. We make way basically create the container for you. Read the deployment, bring it online. And I feel like there's these lines and that I t guys need to be able to say I need to create the guard rails for the Debs. I don't want to make it seem like I'm creating guardrails for the deaths caused the deaths. Don't like that. That's how I'm balancing it. >>Okay, Because that has always been the tension and that there's a lot of talk about Dev ops, but you don't talkto application developers, and they don't wanna have anything to do with infrastructure. They just want a program to an A p I and get things done. They would like this infrastructure to be seamless. Yeah, >>and what we did, like also what I'm giving them is like service dashboards. Because as a developer, you know, because now you're in charge of your cue, eh? You're writing your tests you're pushing. If your c I is going to ct you on your service in production, right? And so we're delivering dashboards as well for service Is that the developers are running, so they dig in and say, Oh, here's an issue or here's where the issue is probably gonna be at I'm gonna go fix this. Yeah, and we're trying to create that type of like scenario for developer and for an I T manager, >>slightly different angle on it, by understanding that question correctly is part of the complexity of infrastructure is something we're also turned Friday deterministic sort of easy button capability, for perhaps you're familiar with them. That's nice. And a C I product, which we we kind of expand that as hybrid cloud infrastructure. If the intention is to make it a simple private cloud capability and indeed are not, a community service operates directly off of it. It's a big part of actually how we deliver Cloud Service is from it. The point is, is that if you're that application developer, if you want the effective and CASS on prom thing, Endeavor with are not a PhD. I product is to give you that sort of easy button extremes because you didn't really want to be a storage admin network at you didn't want to get into the be mired in the details of infra. So So you know, that's obviously work in progress. But we think we're definitely headed down the right direction >>for him. >>Yeah, it just seemed that a lot of enterprises wanna have the cloud like experience, but they want to be able to bring it home that we're seeing a lot more. Yeah. >>So this is like, this turn cheon from this turnkey cloud on premise and played with think has weaken like the same auto scaling. So take so take the dynamic nature of opportunities. Right. So I have a base cluster size of four worker notes, right? But my work, let's gonna maybe maybe need to have more notes. So my out of scale is gonna increase the size my cluster and decrease the size right Pretty much everybody only do that in the public cloud. I could do that in public and on premise now and so that's That's what we're trying to deliver. And that's nickel stuff. I think >>that there's a lot of advantages thio enterprises operating in that way because I have I people that here I can I can go and buy them, hire them and say way, need you to operate this gear and you, you've already done elsewhere. You can do it in cloud. You can do it on side. I could know run my operations the same across no matter where my applications leave, Which saves me a lot of money on training costs on development costs on generally makes for a much more smooth and seamless experience. So, Rob, if you could just love >>your takeaway on, you know, kind of net up participation here at the event and what you want people to take away off from the show this year. >>So it's certainly the case that we're doing a lot of great work. We, like people toe become aware of it. Not up, of course, is not. I think we talked about this and perhaps other context, not strictly a storage and data management company. Only way do draw from the strength of that as we're providing full stack capabilities in a way that are interconnected with public cloud things like are not a Cuban. Any service is really the foundational glue in many ways how we deliver the application run time, but over time will build a consolation of data centric capabilities around that as well. >>I would just love to get your viewpoint Is someone that you know built a company in this ecosystem. There's so many start ups here. Give us kind of that founder viewpoint of being in. They're so sort of ecosystem of the >>ecosystem. So this is how I came into the ecosystem at the beginning. I would have to say that it does feel different. Att This point, I'm gonna speak as Matt, not as now. And so my my thinking has always been It feels a lot like kind of your really your big fan of that rock bands, right? And you go to a local club way all get to know each other at that local club. There's, like maybe 500 of us or 1000 of us. And then that band gets signed a Warner Brothers and goes to the top it. Now there's 20,000 people or 12,000 people. That's how it feels to me right now, I think. But what I like about it is that just shows the power of the community is now at a point where is drawing in like cities now, not just a small collection of a tribe of people, right? And I think that's a very powerful thing with this community. And like all the where they called the kubernetes summits that they're doing way, didn't have any of those back when we first got going. I mean, it was tough to fill the room, you know, Now, now we can fill the room and it's amazing. And what I like seeing is is people moving past the problem with kubernetes itself and moving into, like, what other problems can I solve on top of kubernetes, you know? So you're starting to see that all these really exciting startups doing really need things, you know, and I really likes it like this vendor hall I really like, you know, because you get to see all the new guys. But there's a lot of stuff going on, and I'm excited to see where the community goes in the next five years. But it's we've gone from 0 to 60 insanely because you guys were at the original coupon. I think, Well, >>it's our fourth year doing the Cube at this show, but absolutely we've watched the early days, You know, I'm not supposed to mention open stack of this show, but we remember talking T o J j. And some of the early people there and wait interviewed Chris McCloskey back into Google days, right? So, yeah, we've been fortunate to be on here, really? Day zero here and definitely great energy. So much. Congrats. So much on the progress. Really appreciate the updates, Everything going. As you said, right, we've reached a certain estate and just adding more value on top of this whole >>environment. We're now like we're in, like, Junior high now. Right on were in grade school for a few years. >>All right, Matt. Rob, Thank you so much for the update. Hopefully not an awkward dance tonight for the junior people. For Justin Warren. I'm stupid and back with more coverage here from Q Khan Cloud native 2019. Diego, Thank you for watching Cute