>> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of "Compute Engineered for your Hybrid World," sponsored by HPE and Intel. Today we're going to discuss the new 4th Gen Intel Xeon Scalable process impact on containers and AI. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE, and I'm joined by three experts to guide us along. We have Jordan Plum, Senior Director of AI and products for Intel, Bradley Sweeney, Big Data and AI Product Manager, Mainstream Compute Workloads at HPE, and Gary Wang, Containers Product Manager, Mainstream Compute Workloads at HPE. Welcome to the program gentlemen. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you for having us. >> This segment is going to be talking about containers to deploy high performance AI applications. This is a really important area right now. We're seeing a lot more AI deployed, kind of next gen AI coming. How is HPE supporting and testing and delivering containers for AI? >> Yeah, so what we're doing from HPE's perspective is we're taking these container platforms, combining with the next generation Intel servers to fully validate the deployment of the containers. So what we're doing is we're publishing the reference architectures. We're creating these automation scripts, and also creating a monitoring and security strategy for these container platforms. So for customers to easily deploy these Kubernete clusters and to easily secure their community environments. >> Gary, give us a quick overview of the new Proliant DL 360 and 380 Gen 11 servers. >> Yeah, the load, for example, for container platforms what we're seeing mostly is the DL 360 and DL 380 for matching really well for container use cases, especially for AI. The DL 360, with the expended now the DDR five memory and the new PCI five slots really, really helps the speeds to deploy these container environments and also to grow the data that's required to store it within these container environments. So for example, like the DL 380 if you want to deploy a data fabric whether it's the Ezmeral data fabric or different vendors data fabric software you can do so with the DL 360 and DL 380 with the new Intel Xeon processors. >> How does HP help customers with Kubernetes deployments? >> Yeah, like I mentioned earlier so we do a full validation to ensure the container deployment is easy and it's fast. So we create these automation scripts and then we publish them on GitHub for customers to use and to reference. So they can take that and then they can adjust as they need to. But following the deployment guide that we provide will make the, deploy the community deployment much easier, much faster. So we also have demo videos that's also published and then for reference architecture document that's published to guide the customer step by step through the process. >> Great stuff. Thanks everyone. We'll be going to take a quick break here and come back. We're going to do a deep dive on the fourth gen Intel Xeon scalable process and the impact on AI and containers. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. We'll be right back. (intense music) Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of "Compute Engineered for your Hybrid World" series. I'm John Furrier with the Cube, joined by Jordan Plum with Intel, Bradley Sweeney with HPE, and Gary Wang from HPE. We're going to do a drill down and do a deeper dive into the AI containers with the fourth gen Intel Xeon scalable processors we appreciate your time coming in. Jordan, great to see you. I got to ask you right out of the gate, what is the view right now in terms of Intel's approach to containers for AI? It's hot right now. AI is booming. You're seeing kind of next gen use cases. What's your approach to containers relative to AI? >> Thanks John and thanks for the question. With the fourth generation Xeon scalable processor launch we have tested and validated this platform with over 400 deep learning and machine learning models and workloads. These models and workloads are publicly available in the framework repositories and they can be downloaded by anybody. Yet customers are not only looking for model validation they're looking for model performance and performance is usually a combination of a given throughput at a target latency. And to do that in the data center all the way to the factory floor, this is not always delivered from these generic proxy models that are publicly available in the industry. >> You know, performance is critical. We're seeing more and more developers saying, "Hey, I want to go faster on a better platform, faster all the time." No one wants to run slower stuff, that's for sure. Can you talk more about the different container approaches Intel is pursuing? >> Sure. First our approach is to meet the customers where they are and help them build and deploy AI everywhere. Some customers just want to focus on deployment they have more mature use cases, and they just want to download a model that works that's high performing and run. Others are really focused more on development and innovation. They want to build and train models from scratch or at least highly customize them. Therefore we have several container approaches to accelerate the customer's time to solution and help them meet their business SLA along their AI journey. >> So what developers can just download these containers and just go? >> Yeah, so let me talk about the different kinds of containers we have. We start off with pre-trained containers. We'll have about 55 or more of these containers where the model is actually pre-trained, highly performant, some are optimized for low latency, others are optimized for throughput and the customers can just download these from Intel's website or from HPE and they can just go into production right away. >> That's great. A lot of choice. People can just get jump right in. That's awesome. Good, good choice for developers. They want more faster velocity. We know that. What else does Intel provide? Can you share some thoughts there? What you guys else provide developers? >> Yeah, so we talked about how hey some are just focused on deployment and they maybe they have more mature use cases. Other customers really want to do some more customization or optimization. So we have another class of containers called development containers and this includes not just the kind of a model itself but it's integrated with the framework and some other capabilities and techniques like model serving. So now that customers can download just not only the model but an entire AI stack and they can be sort of do some optimizations but they can also be sure that Intel has optimized that specific stack on top of the HPE servers. >> So it sounds simple to just get started using the DL model and containers. Is that it? Where, what else are customers looking for? What can you take a little bit deeper? >> Yeah, not quite. Well, while the customer customer's ability to reproduce performance on their site that HPE and Intel have measured in our own labs is fantastic. That's not actually what the customer is only trying to do. They're actually building very complex end-to-end AI pipelines, okay? And a lot of data scientists are really good at building models, really good at building algorithms but they're less experienced in building end-to-end pipelines especially 'cause the number of use cases end-to-end are kind of infinite. So we are building end-to-end pipeline containers for use cases like media analytics and sentiment analysis, anomaly detection. Therefore a customer can download these end-to-end containers, right? They can either use them as a reference, just like, see how we built them and maybe they have some changes in their own data center where they like to use different tools, but they can just see, "Okay this is what's possible with an end-to-end container on top of an HPE server." And other cases they could actually, if the overlap in the use case is pretty close, they can just take our containers and go directly into production. So this provides developers, all three types of containers that I discussed provide developers an easy starting point to get them up and running quickly and make them productive. And that's a really important point. You talked a lot about performance, John. But really when we talk to data scientists what they really want to be is productive, right? They're under pressure to change the business to transform the business and containers is a great way to get started fast >> People take product productivity, you know, seriously now with developer productivity is the hottest trend obviously they want performance. Totally nailed it. Where can customers get these containers? >> Right. Great, thank you John. Our pre-trained model containers, our developmental containers, and our end-to-end containers are available at intel.com at the developer catalog. But we'd also post these on many third party marketplaces that other people like to pull containers from. And they're frequently updated. >> Love the developer productivity angle. Great stuff. We've still got more to discuss with Jordan, Bradley, and Gary. We're going to take a short break here. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. We'll be right back. (intense music) Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of "Compute Engineered for your Hybrid World." I'm John Furrier with theCUBE and we'll be discussing and wrapping up our discussion on containers to deploy high performance AI. This is a great segment on really a lot of demand for AI and the applications involved. And we got the fourth gen Intel Xeon scalable processors with HP Gen 11 servers. Bradley, what is the top AI use case that Gen 11 HP Proliant servers are optimized for? >> Yeah, thanks John. I would have to say intelligent video analytics. It's a use case that's supplied across industries and verticals. For example, a smart hospital solution that we conducted with Nvidia and Artisight in our previous customer success we've seen 5% more hospital procedures, a 16 times return on investment using operating room coordination. With that IVA, so with the Gen 11 DL 380 that we provide using the the Intel four gen Xeon processors it can really support workloads at scale. Whether that is a smart hospital solution whether that's manufacturing at the edge security camera integration, we can do it all with Intel. >> You know what's really great about AI right now you're starting to see people starting to figure out kind of where the value is does a lot of the heavy lifting on setting things up to make humans more productive. This has been clearly now kind of going neck level. You're seeing it all in the media now and all these new tools coming out. How does HPE make it easier for customers to manage their AI workloads? I imagine there's going to be a surge in demand. How are you guys making it easier to manage their AI workloads? >> Well, I would say the biggest way we do this is through GreenLake, which is our IT as a service model. So customers deploying AI workloads can get fully-managed services to optimize not only their operations but also their spending and the cost that they're putting towards it. In addition to that we have our Gen 11 reliance servers equipped with iLO 6 technology. What this does is allows customers to securely manage their server complete environment from anywhere in the world remotely. >> Any last thoughts or message on the overall fourth gen intel Xeon based Proliant Gen 11 servers? How they will improve workload performance? >> You know, with this generation, obviously the performance is only getting ramped up as the needs and requirements for customers grow. We partner with Intel to support that. >> Jordan, gimme the last word on the container's effect on AI applications. Your thoughts as we close out. >> Yeah, great. I think it's important to remember that containers themselves don't deliver performance, right? The AI stack is a very complex set of software that's compiled together and what we're doing together is to make it easier for customers to get access to that software, to make sure it all works well together and that it can be easily installed and run on sort of a cloud native infrastructure that's hosted by HPE Proliant servers. Hence the title of this talk. How to use Containers to Deploy High Performance AI Applications. Thank you. >> Gentlemen. Thank you for your time on the Compute Engineered for your Hybrid World sponsored by HPE and Intel. Again, I love this segment for AI applications Containers to Deploy Higher Performance. This is a great topic. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks John. >> Okay, I'm John. We'll be back with more coverage. See you soon. (soft music)

>>Hey everybody. Welcome back. Good afternoon. Lisa Martin here with John Feer live in Detroit, Michigan. We are at Coon Cloud Native Con 2020s North America. John Thank is who. This is nearing the end of our second day of coverage and one of the things that has been breaking all day on this show is news. News. We have more news to >>Break next. Yeah, this next segment is a company we've been following. They got some news we're gonna get into. Managing Kubernetes life cycle has been a huge challenge when you've got large organizations, whether you're spinning up and scaling scale is the big story. Kubernetes is the center of the conversation. This next segment's gonna be great. It >>Is. We've got two guests from Specter Cloud here. Please welcome. It's CEO Chenery Fu and co-founder and it's c g a co-founder Sta Mallek. Guys, great to have you on the program. Thank >>You for having us. My pleasure. >>So Timary, what's going on? What's the big news? >>Yeah, so we just announced our Palace three this morning. So we add a bunch, a new functionality. So first of all we have a Nest cluster. So enable enterprise to easily provide Kubernete service even on top of their existing clusters. And secondly, we also support seamlessly migration for their existing cluster. We enable them to be able to migrate their cluster into our CNC for upstream Kubernete distro called Pallet extended Kubernetes, GX K without any downtime. And lastly, we also add a lot of focus on developer experience. Those additional capability enable developer to easily onboard and and deploy the application for. They have test and troubleshooting without, they have to have a steep Kubernetes lending curve. >>So big breaking news this morning, pallet 3.0. So you got the, you got the product. This is a big theme here. Developer productivity, ease of use is the top story here. As developers are gonna increase their code velocity cuz they're under a lot of pressure. This infrastructure's getting smarter. This is a big part of managing it. So the toil is now moving to the ops. Steves are now dev teams. Security, you gotta enable faster deployment of apps and code. This is what you guys solve while you getting this right. Is that, take us through that specific value proposition. What's the, what are the key things on in this news release? Yeah, >>You're exactly right. Right. So we basically provide our solution to platform engineering ship so that they can use our platform to enable Kubernetes service to serve their developers and their application ship. And then in the meantime, the developers will be able to easily use Kubernetes or without, They have to learn a lot of what Kubernetes specific things like. So maybe you can get in some >>Detail. Yeah. And absolutely the detail about it is there's a big separation between what operations team does and the development teams that are using the actual capabilities. The development teams don't necessarily to know the internals of Kubernetes. There's so much complexity when it comes, comes into it. How do I do things like deployment pause manifests just too much. So what our platform does, it makes it really simple for them to say, I have a containerized application, I wanna be able to model it. It's a really simple profile and from there, being able to say, I have a database service. I wanna attach to it. I have a specific service. Go run it behind the scenes. Does it run inside of a Nest cluster? Which we'll talk into a little bit. Does it run into a host cluster? Those are happen transparently for >>The developer. You know what I love about this? What you guys are doing in the news, it really points out what I love about DevOps. Because cloud, let's face a cloud early adopters, we're all the hardcore cloud folks as it goes mainstream. With Kubernetes, you start to see like words like platform engineering. I mean I love that term. That means as a platform, it's been around for a while. For people who are building their own stuff, that means it's gonna scale and enable people to enable value, build on top of it, move faster. This platform engineering is becoming now standard in enterprises. It wasn't like that before. What's your eyes reactions that, How do you see that evolving faster? Or do you believe that or what's your take on >>It? Yeah, so I think it's starting from the DevOps op team, right? That every application team, they all try to deploy and manage their application under their own ING infrastructure. But very soon all these each application team, they start realize they have to repeatedly do the same thing. So these will need to have a platform engineering team to basically bring some of common practice to >>That. >>And some people call them SREs like and that's really platform >>Engineering. It is, it is. I mean, you think about like Esther ability to deploy your applications at scale and monitoring and observability. I think what platform engineering does is codify all those best practices. Everything when it comes about how you monitor the actual applications. How do you do c i CD your backups? Instead of not having every single individual development team figuring how to do it themselves. Platform engineer is saying, why don't we actually build policy that we can provide as a service to different development teams so that they can operate their own applications at scale. >>So launching Pellet 3.0 today, you also had a launch in September, so just a few weeks ago. Talk about what these two announcements mean from Specter Cloud's perspective in terms of proof points, what you're delivering to the end users and the value that they're getting from that. >>Yeah, so our goal is really to help enterprise to deploy and around Kubernetes anywhere, right? Whether it's in cloud data center or even at Edge locations. So in September we also announce our HV two capabilities, which enable very easy deployment of Edge Kubernetes, right at at at any any location, like a retail stores restaurant, so on and so forth. So as you know, at Edge location, there's no cloud endpoint there. It's not easy to directly deploy and manage Kubernetes. And also at Edge location there's not, it's not as secure as as cloud or data center environment. So how to make the end to end system more secure, right? That it's temper proof, that is also very, very important. >>Right. Great, great take there. Thanks for explaining that. I gotta ask cuz I'm curious, what's the secret sauce? Is it nested clusters? What's, what's the core under the hood here on 3.0 that people should know about it's news? It's what's, what's the, what's that post important >>To? To be honest, it's about enabling developer velocity. Now how do you enable developer velocity? It's gonna be able for them to think about deploying applications without worrying about Kubernetes being able to build this application profiles. This NEA cluster that we're talking about enables them, they get access to it in complete cluster within seconds. They're essentially having access to be able to add any operations, any capabilities without having the ability to provision a cluster on inside of infrastructure. Whether it's Amazon, Google, or OnPrem. >>So, and you get the dev engine too, right? That that, that's a self-service provisioning in for environments. Is that, Yeah, >>So the dev engine itself are the capabilities that we offer to developers so that they can build these application profiles. What the application profiles, again they define aspects about, my application is gonna be a container, it's gonna be a database service, it's gonna be a helm chart. They define that entire structure inside of it. From there they can choose to say, I wanna deploy this. The target environment, whether it becomes an actual host cluster or a cluster itself is irrelevant to them. For them it's complete transparent. >>So transparency, enabling developer velocity. What's been some of the feedback so far? >>Oh, all developer love that. And also same for all >>The ops team. If it's easy and goods faster and the steps >>Win-win team. Yeah, Ops team, they need a consistency. They need a governance, they need visibility, but in the meantime, developers, they need the flexibility then theys or without a steep learning curve. So this really, >>So So I hear a lot of people say, I got a lot of sprawl, cluster sprawl. Yeah, let's get outta hand does, let's solve that. How do you guys solve that problem? Yeah, >>So the Neste cluster is a profit answer for that. So before you nest cluster, for a lot of enterprise to serving developers, they have to either create a very large TED cluster and then isolated by namespace, which not ideal for a lot of situation because name stay namespace is not a hard isolation and also a lot of global resource like CID and operator does not work in space. But the other way is you give each developer a separate, a separate ADE cluster, but that very quickly become too costly. Cause not every developer is working for four, seven, and half of the time your, your cluster is is a sit there idol and that costs a lot of money. So you cluster, you'll be able to basically do all these inside the your wholesale cluster, bring the >>Efficiency there. That is huge. Yeah. Saves a lot of time. Reduces the steps it takes. So I take, take a minute, my last question to you to explain what's in it for the developer, if they work with Spec Cloud, what is your value? What's the pitch? Not the sales pitch, but like what's the value pitch that >>You give them? Yeah, yeah. And the value for us is again, develop their number of different services and teams people are using today are so many, there are so many different languages or so many different libraries there so many different capabilities. It's too hard for developers to have to understand not only the internal development tools, but also the Kubernetes, the containers of technologies. There's too much for it. Our value prop is making it really easy for them to get access to all these different integrations and tooling without having to learn it. Right? And then being able to very easily say, I wanna deploy this into a cluster. Again, whether it's a Nest cluster or a host cluster. But the next layer on top of that is how do we also share those abilities with other teams. If I build my application profile, I'm developing an application, I should be able to share it with my team members. But Henry saying, Hey Tanner, why don't you also take a look at my app profile and let's build and collaborate together on that. So it's about collaboration and be able to move >>Really fast. I mean, more develops gotta be more productive. That's number one. Number one hit here. Great job. >>Exactly. Last question before we run out Time. Is this ga now? Can folks get their hands on it where >>Yes. Yeah. It is GA and available both as a, as a SaaS and also the store. >>Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on the announcement and the momentum that Specter Cloud is empowering itself with. We appreciate your insights on your time. >>Thank you. Thank you so much. Right, pleasure. >>Thanks for having us. For our guest and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Michigan at Co con Cloud native PON 22. Our next guests join us in just a minute. So stick around.

>>Good morning and welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here on set of the cube, my co-host John Farer. How you doing this morning, John? >>Doing great. Feeling fresh. Day two of three days of coverage, feeling >>Fresh. That is that for being in the heat of the conference. I love that attitude. It's gonna >>Be a great day today. We'll see you at the end of the day. Yeah, >>Well, we'll hold him to it. All right, everyone hold 'em accountable. Very excited to start the day off with an internet, a legend as well as a cube og. We are joined this morning by Matt Klein. Matt, welcome to the show. >>Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yep. >>It's so, what's the vibe? Day two, Everyone's buzzing. What's got you excited at the show? You've been here before, but it's been three years you >>Mentioned. I, I was saying it's been three years since I've been to a conference, so it's been interesting for me to see what is, what is the same and what is different pre and post covid. But just really great to see everyone here again and nice to not be sitting in my home by myself. >>You know, Savannah said you're an OG and we were referring before we came on camera that you were your first came on the Cub in 2017, second Cuban event. But you were, I think, on the first wave of what I call the contributor momentum, where CNCF really got the traction. Yeah. You were at Lift, Envoy was contributed and that was really hyped up and I remember that vividly. It was day zero they called it back then. Yeah. And you got so much traction. People are totally into it. Yeah. Now we've got a lot of that going on now. Right. A lot of, lot of day Zero events. They call 'em co, co-located events. You got web assembly, a lot of other hype out there. What do you see out there that you like? How would you look at some of these other Sure. Communities that are developing, What's the landscape look like as you look out? Because Envoy set the table, what is now a standard >>Practice. Yeah. What's been so interesting for me just to come here to the conference is, you know, we open source Envoy in 2016. We donated in 2017. And as you mentioned at that time, Envoy was, you know, everyone wanted to talk about Envoy. And you know, much to my amazement, Envoy is now pervasive. I mean, it's used everywhere around the world. It's like, never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that it would be so widely used. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's become boring. You know, It's just assumed that Envoy is, is everywhere. And now we're hearing a lot about Eeb p f and Web assembly and GI ops and you know, AI and a bunch of other things. So it's, it's actually great. It's made me very happy that it's become so pervasive, but it's also fun. Yeah. We mention to, to look around all other stuff >>Like congratulate. It's just a huge accomplishment really. I think it's gonna be historic, historical moment for the industry too. But I like how it progressed. I mean, I don't mind hype cycles as long as it's some vetting. Sure. Of course. You know, use cases that are clearly defined, but you gotta get that momentum in the community, but then you start gotta get down to, to business. Yep. So, so to speak and get it deployed, get traction. Yep. What should projects look like? And, and give us the update on Envoy. Cause you guys have a, a great use case of how you got traction. Right. Take us through some of the early days of what made Envoy successful in your opinion. Great question. >>Yeah. You know, I, I think Envoy is fairly unique around this conference in the sense that Envoy was developed by Lyft, which is an end user company. And many of the projects in this ecosystem, you know, no judgment, for better or worse, they are vendor backed. And I think that's a different delivery mechanism when it's coming from an end user where you're solving a, a particular business case. So Envoy was really developed for Lyft in a, you know, very early scaling days and just, you know, trying to help Lyft solve its business problems. So I think when Envoy was developed, we were, you know, scaling, we were falling over and actually many other companies were having similar problems. So I think Envoy became very widely deployed because many companies were having similar issues. So Envoy just became pervasive among lift peer companies. And then we saw a lot of vendor uptake in the service mesh space in the API gateway space among large internet providers. So, I I I, I think it's just, it's an interesting case because I think when you're solving real problems on the ground, in some ways it's easier to actually get adoption than if you're trying to develop it from a commercial backing. >>And that's the class, I mean, almost, It's almost like open source product market fit. It is in its own way. Cause you have a problem. Absolutely. Other people have the same problem finding >>Too. I mean, it's, it's designed thinking from >>A different, When, when I talk to people about open source, I like to tell people that I do not think it's any different than starting a company. I actually think it's all the same problems finding pro product, market fit, hiring, like finding contributors and maintainers, like doing PR and marketing. Yeah. Getting team together, traction, getting, getting funding. I mean, you have to have money to do all these things. Yeah. So I think a lot of people think of open source as I, I don't know, you know, this fantastic collaborative effort and, and it is that, but there's a lot more to it. Yeah. And it is much more akin to starting a >>Company. Let's, let's just look at that for a second. Cause I think that's a good point. And I was having a conversation in the hallway two nights ago on this exact point. If the power dynamics of a startup in the open source, as you point out, is just different, it's community based. So there are things you just gotta be mindful of. It's not top down. >>Exactly. It's not like, >>Right. You know, go take that hill. It's really consensus based, but it is a startup. All those elements are in place. Absolutely. You need leadership, you gotta have debates, alignment, commit, You gotta commit to a vision. Yep. You gotta make adjustments. Build the trajectory. So based on that, I mean, do you see more end user traction? Cause I was, we were talking also about Intuit, they donated some of their tow code R goes out there. Yep. R go see the CDR goes a service. Where's the end user contributions to these days? Do you feel like it's good, still healthy? >>I, I mean, I, I'm, I'm biased. I would like to see more. I think backstage outta Spotify is absolutely fantastic. That's an area just in terms of developer portals and developer efficiency that I think has been very underserved. So seeing Backstage come outta Spotify where they've used it for years, and I think we've already seen they had a huge date, you know, day one event. And I, I think we're gonna see a lot more out of that >>Coming from, I'm an end user, pretend I'm an end user, so pretend I have some code. I want to, Oh man, I'm scared. I don't am I'm gonna lose my competitive edge. What's the, how do you talk to the enterprise out there that might be thinking about putting their project out there for whether it's the benefit of the community, developing talent, developing the product? >>Sure. Yeah. I would say that I, I would ask everyone to think through all of the pros and cons of doing that because it's not for free. I mean, doing open source is costly. It takes developer time, you know, it takes management time, it takes budgeting dollars. But the benefits if successful can be huge, right? I mean, it can be just in terms of, you know, getting people into your company, getting users, getting more features, all of that. So I would always encourage everyone to take a very pragmatic and realistic view of, of what is required to make that happen. >>What was that decision like at Lyft >>When you I I'm gonna be honest, it was very naive. I I think we've, of that we think we need to know. No, just didn't know. Yeah. I think a lot of us, myself included, had very minimal open source experience. And had we known, or had I known what would've happened, I, I still would've done it. But I, I'm gonna be honest, the last seven years have aged me what I feel like is like 70 or a hundred. It's been a >>But you say you look out in the landscape, you gotta take pride, look at what's happened. Oh, it's, I mean, it's like you said, it >>Matured fantastic. I would not trade it for anything, but it has, it has been a journey. What >>Was the biggest surprise? What was the most eye opening thing about the journey for you? >>I, I think actually just the recognition of all of the non-technical things that go into making these things a success. I think at a conference like this, people think a lot about technology. It is a technology conference, but open source is business. It really is. I mean, it, it takes money to keep it going. It takes people to keep >>It going. You gotta sell people on the concepts. >>It takes leadership to keep it going. It takes internal, it takes marketing. Yeah. So for me, what was most eyeopening is over the last five to seven years, I feel like I actually have not developed very many, if any technical skills. But my general leadership skills, you know, that would be applicable again, to running a business have applied so well to, to >>Growing off, Hey, you put it out there, you hear driving the ship. It's good to do that. They need that. It really needs it. And the results speak for itself and congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. What's the update on the project? Give us an update because you're seeing, seeing a lot of infrastructure people having the same problem. Sure. But it's also, the environments are a little bit different. Some people have different architectures. Absolutely different, more cloud, less cloud edges exploding. Yeah. Where does Envoy fit into the landscape they've seen and what's the updates? You've got some new things going on. Give the updates on what's going on with the project Sure. And then how it sits in the ecosystem vis-a-vis what people may use it for. >>Yeah. So I'm, from a core project perspective, honestly, things have matured. Things have stabilized a bit. So a lot of what we focus on now are less Big bang features, but more table stakes. We spend a lot of time on security. We spend a lot of time on software supply chain. A topic that you're probably hearing a lot about at this conference. We have a lot of software supply chain issues. We have shipped Quicken HTB three over the last year. That's generally available. That's a new internet protocol still work happening on web assembly where ha doing a lot of work on our build and release pipeline. Again, you would think that's boring. Yeah. But a lot of people want, you know, packages for their fedora or their ADU or their Docker images. And that takes a lot of effort. So a lot of what we're doing now is more table stakes, just realizing that the project is used around the world very widely. >>Yeah. The thing that I'm most interested in is, we announced in the last six months a project called Envoy Gateway, which is layered on top of Envoy. And the goal of Envoy Gateway is to make it easier for people to run Envoy within Kubernetes. So essentially as an, as an ingress controller. And Envoy is a project historically, it is a very sophisticated piece of software, very complicated piece of software. It's not for everyone. And we want to provide Envoy Gateway as a way of onboarding more users into the Envoy ecosystem and making Envoy the, the default API gateway or edge proxy within Kubernetes. But in terms of use cases, we see Envoy pervasively with service mesh, API gateway, other types of low balancing cases. I mean, honestly, it's, it's all over the place at >>This point. I'm curious because you mentioned it's expanded beyond your wildest dreams. Yeah. And how could you have even imagined what Envoy was gonna do? Is there a use case or an application that really surprised you? >>You know, I've been asked that before and I, it's hard for me to answer that. It's, it's more that, I mean, for example, Envoy is used by basically every major internet company in China. I mean, like, wow. Everyone in China uses Envoy, like TikTok, like Alibaba. I mean like everyone, all >>The large sale, >>Everyone. You know, and it's used, it's used in the, I'm just, it's not just even the us. So I, I think the thing that has surprised me more than individual use cases is just the, the worldwide adoption. You know, that something could be be everywhere. And that I think, you know, when I open my phone and I'm opening all of these apps on my phone, 80 or 90% of them are going through Envoy in some form. Yeah. You know, it's, it's just that pervasive, I blow your mind a little bit sometimes >>That does, that's why you say plumber on your Twitter handle as your title. Cause you're working on all these things that are like really important substrate issues, Right. For scale, stability, growth. >>And, you know, to, I, I guess the only thing that I would add is, my goal for Envoy has always been that it is that boring, transparent piece of technology. Kind of similar to Linux. Linux is everywhere. Right? But no one really knows that they're using Linux. It's, it's justs like Intel inside, we're not paying attention. It's just there, there's >>A core group working on, if they have pride, they understand the mission, the importance of it, and they make their job is to make it invisible. >>Right. Exactly. >>And that's really ease of use. What's some of the ease of use sways and, and simplicity that you're working on, if you can talk about that. Because to be boring, you gotta be simpler and easier. All boring complex is unique is not boring. Complex is stressful. No, >>I I think we approach it in a couple different ways. One of them is that because we view Envoy as a, as a base technology in the ecosystem, we're starting to see, you know, not only vendors, but other open source projects that are being built on top of Envoy. So things like API Gateway, sorry, Envoy Gateway or you know, projects like Istio or all the other projects that are out there. They use Envoy as a component, but in some sense Envoy is a, as a transparent piece of that system. Yeah. So I'm a big believer in the ecosystem that we need to continue to make cloud native easier for, for end users. I still think it's too complicated. And so I think we're there, we're, we're pushing up the stack a bit. >>Yeah. And that brings up a good point. When you start seeing people building on top of things, right? That's enabling. So as you look at the enablement of Envoy, what are some of the things you see out on the horizon if you got the 20 mile stare out as you check these boring boxes, make it more plumbing, Right? Stable. You'll have a disruptive enabling platform. Yeah. What do you see out there? >>I am, you know, I, again, I'm not a big buzzword person, but, so some people call it serverless functions as a service, whatever. I'm a big believer in platforms in the sense that I really believe in the next 10 to 15 years, developers, they want to provide code. You know, they want to call APIs, they want to use pub subsystems, they want to use cas and databases. And honestly, they don't care about container scheduling or networking or load balancing or any of >>These things. It's handled in the os >>They just want it to be part of the operating system. Yeah, exactly. So I, I really believe that whether it's an open source or in cloud provider, you know, package solutions, that we're going to be just moving increasingly towards systems likes Lambda and Fargate and Google Cloud Run and Azure functions and all those kinds of things. And I think that when you do that much of the functionality that has historically powered this conference like Kubernetes and Onvoy, these become critical but transparent components that people don't, they're not really aware of >>At that point. Yeah. And I think that's a great call out because one of the things we're seeing is the market forces of, of this evolution, what you just said is what has to happen Yep. For digital transformation to, to get to its conclusion. Yep. Which means that everything doesn't have to serve the business, it is the business. Right. You know it in the old days. Yep. Engineers, they serve the business. Like what does that even mean? Yep. Now, right. Developers are the business, so they need that coding environment. So for your statement to happen, that simplicity in visibility calling is invisible os has to happen. So it brings up the question in open source, the trend is things always work itself out on the wash, as we say. So when you start having these debates and the alignment has to come at some point, you can't get to those that stay without some sort of defacto or consensus. Yep. And even standards, I'm not a big be around hardcore standards, but we can all agree and have consensus Sure. That will align behind, say Kubernetes, It's Kubernetes a standard. It's not like an i e you know, but this next, what, what's your reaction to this? Because this alignment has to come after debate. So all the process contending for I am the this of that. >>Yeah. I'm a look, I mean, I totally see the value in like i e e standards and, and there's a place for that. At the same time, for me personally as a technologist, as an engineer, I prefer to let the, the market as it were sort out what are the defacto standards. So for example, at least with Envoy, Envoy has an API that we call Xds. Xds is now used beyond Envoy. It's used by gc, it's used by proprietary systems. And I'm a big believer that actually Envoy in its form is probably gonna go away before Xds goes away. So in some ways Xds has become a defacto standard. It's not an i e e standard. Yeah. We, we, we have been asked about whether we should do that. Yeah. But I just, I I think the >>It becomes a component. >>It becomes a component. Yeah. And then I think people gravitate towards these things that become de facto standards. And I guess I would rather let the people on the show floor decide what are the standards than have, you know, 10 people sitting in a room figure out >>The community define standards versus organizational institutional defined standards. >>And they both have places a >>Hundred percent. Yeah, sure. And, and there's social proof in both of them. Yep. >>Frankly, >>And we were saying on the cube that we believe that the developers will decide the standard. Sure. Because that's what you're basically saying. They're deciding what they do with their code. Right. And over time, as people realize the trade of, hey, if everyone's coding this right. And makes my life easier to get to that state of nirvana and enlightenment, as we would say. Yeah. Yeah. >>Starting strong this morning. John, I I love this. I'm curious, you mentioned Backstage by Spotify wonderful example. Do you think that this is a trend we're gonna see with more end users >>Creating open source projects? Like I, you know, I hope so. The flip side of that, and as we all know, we're entering an uncertain economic time and it can be hard to justify the effort that it takes to do it well. And what I typically counsel people when they are about to open source something is don't do it unless you're ready to commit the resources. Because opensourcing something and not supporting it. Yeah. I actually can be think, I think it'd be worse. >>It's an, it's insult that people, you're asking to commit to something. Exactly. Needs of time, need the money investment, you gotta go all in and push. >>So I, so I very much want to see it and, and I want to encourage that here, but it's hard for me to look into the crystal ball and know, you know, whether it's gonna happen more >>Or less at what point there were, are there too many projects? You know, I mean, but I'm not, I mean this in, in a, in a negative way. I mean it more in the way of, you know, you mentioned supply chain. We were riffing on the cube about at some point there's gonna be so much code open source continuing thundering away with, with the value that you're just gluing things. Right. I don't need the code, this code there. Okay. What's in the code? Okay. Maybe automation can help out on supply chain. Yeah. But ultimately composability is the new >>Right? It is. Yeah. And, and I think that's always going to be the case. Case. Good thing. It is good thing. And I, I think that's just, that's just the way of things for sure. >>So no code will be, >>I think, I think we're seeing a lot of no code situations that are working great for people. And, and, but this is actually really no different than my, than my serverless arguing from before. Just as a, as a, a slight digression. I'm building something new right now and you know, we're using cloud native technologies and all this stuff and it's still, >>What are you building? >>Even as a I'm, I'm gonna keep that, I'm gonna keep that secret. I know I'm, but >>We'll find out on Twitter. We're gonna find out now that we know it. Okay. Keep on mystery. You open that door. We're going down see in a couple weeks. >>Front >>Page is still an angle. >>But I, I was just gonna say that, you know, and I consider myself, you know, you're building something, I'm, I see myself an expert in the cloud native space. It's still difficult, It's difficult to, to pull together these technologies and I think that we will continue to make it easier for people. >>What's the biggest difficulties? Can you give us some examples? >>Well, just, I mean, we still live in a big mess of yammel, right? Is a, there's a, there's a lot of yaml out there. And I think just wrangling all of that in these systems, there's still a lot of cobbling together where I think that there can be unified platforms that make it easier for us to focus on our application logic. >>Yeah. I gotta ask you a question cuz I've talked to college kids all the time. My son's a junior in CS and he's, you know, he's coding away. What would you, how does a student or someone who's learning figure out where, who they are? Because there's now, you know, you're either into the infrastructure under the hood Yeah. Or you're, cuz that's coding there option now coding the way your infrastructure people are working on say the boring stuff so everyone else can have ease of use. And then what is just, I wanna just code, there's two types of personas. How does someone know who they are? >>My, when I give people career advice, my biggest piece of advice to them is in the first five to seven to 10 years of their career, I encourage people to do different things like every say one to two to three years. And that doesn't mean like quitting companies and changing companies, it could mean, you know, within a company that they join doing different teams, you know, working on front end versus back end. Because honestly I think people don't know. I think it's actually very, Yeah. Our industry is so broad. Yeah. That I think it's almost impossible to >>Know. You gotta get your hands dirty to jump >>In order to know what you like. And for me, in my career, you know, I've dabbled in different areas, but I've always come back to infrastructure, you know, that that's what I enjoy >>The most. Okay. You gotta, you gotta taste everything. See what you, what >>You like. Exactly. >>Right. Last question for you, Matt. It's been three years since you were here. Yep. What do you hope that we're able to say next year? That we can't say this year? Hmm. Beyond the secrets of your project, which hopefully we will definitely be discussing then. >>You know, I I, I don't have anything in particular. I would just say that I would like to see more movement towards projects that are synthesizing and making it easier to use a lot of the existing projects that we have today. So for example, I'm, I'm very bullish on backstage. Like I, I've, I've always said that we need better developer UIs that are not CLIs. Like I know it's a general perception among many people. Totally agree with you. Frankly, you're not a real systems engineer unless you type on the command line. I, I think better user interfaces are better for humans. Yep. So just for a project like Backstage to be more integrated with the rest of the projects, whether that be Envo or Kubernete or Argo or Flagger. I, I just, I think there's tremendous potential for further integration of some >>Of these projects. It just composability That makes total sense. Yep. Yep. You're, you're op you're operating and composing. >>Yep. And there's no reason that user experience can't be better. And then more people can create and build. So I think it's awesome. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, this has been fantastic. Be sure and check out Matt on Twitter to find out what that next secret project is. John, thank you for joining me this morning. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll be here all day live from the cube. We hope you'll be joining us throughout the evening until a happy hour today. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome back to The Cube. We are covering VMware Explore live in San Francisco. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage. And John Furrier is here with me, Lisa Martin. We are excited to welcome two guests from Kasten by Veeam, please welcome Tom Laden, VP of marketing and Matt LeBlanc, not Joey from friends, Matt LeBlanc, the systems engineer from North America at Kasten by Veeam. Welcome guys, great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Tom-- >> Great, go ahead. >> Oh, I was going to say, Tom, talk to us about some of the key challenges customers are coming to you with. >> Key challenges that they have at this point is getting up to speed with Kubernetes. So everybody has it on their list. We want to do Kubernetes, but where are they going to start? Back when VMware came on the market, I was switching from Windows to Mac and I needed to run a Windows application on my Mac and someone told me, "Run a VM." Went to the internet, I downloaded it. And in a half hour I was done. That's not how it works with Kubernetes. So that's a bit of a challenge. >> I mean, Kubernetes, Lisa, remember the early days of The Cube Open Stack was kind of transitioning, Cloud was booming and then Kubernetes was the paper that became the thing that pulled everybody together. It's now de facto in my mind. So that's clear, but there's a lot of different versions of it and you hear VMware, they call it the dial tone. Usually, remember, Pat Gelter, it's a dial tone. Turns out that came from Kit Colbert or no, I think AJ kind of coined the term here, but it's since been there, it's been adopted by everyone. There's different versions. It's open source. AWS is involved. How do you guys look at the relationship with Kubernetes here and VMware Explore with Kubernetes and the customers because they have choices. They can go do it on their own. They can add a little bit with Lambda, Serverless. They can do more here. It's not easy. It's not as easy as people think it is. And then this is a skill gaps problem too. We're seeing a lot of these problems out there. What's your take? >> I'll let Matt talk to that. But what I want to say first is this is also the power of the cloud native ecosystem. The days are gone where companies were selecting one enterprise application and they were building their stack with that. Today they're building applications using dozens, if not hundreds of different components from different vendors or open source platforms. And that is really what creates opportunities for those cloud native developers. So maybe you want to... >> Yeah, we're seeing a lot of hybrid solutions out there. So it's not just choosing one vendor, AKS, EKS, or Tanzu. We're seeing all the above. I had a call this morning with a large healthcare provider and they have a hundred clusters and that's spread across AKS, EKS and GKE. So it is covering everything. Plus the need to have a on-prem solution manage it all. >> I got a stat, I got to share that I want to get your reactions and you can laugh or comment, whatever you want to say. Talk to big CSO, CXO, executive, big company, I won't say the name. We got a thousand developers, a hundred of them have heard of Kubernetes, okay. 10 have touched it and used it and one's good at it. And so his point is that there's a lot of Kubernetes need that people are getting aware. So it shows that there's more and more adoption around. You see a lot of managed services out there. So it's clear it's happening and I'm over exaggerating the ratio probably. But the point is the numbers kind of make sense as a thousand developers. You start to see people getting adoption to it. They're aware of the value, but being good at it is what we're hearing is one of those things. Can you guys share your reaction to that? Is that, I mean, it's hyperbole at some level, but it does point to the fact of adoption trends. You got to get good at it, you got to know how to use it. >> It's very accurate, actually. It's what we're seeing in the market. We've been doing some research of our own, and we have some interesting numbers that we're going to be sharing soon. Analysts don't have a whole lot of numbers these days. So where we're trying to run our own surveys to get a grasp of the market. One simple survey or research element that I've done myself is I used Google trends. And in Google trends, if you go back to 2004 and you compare VMware against Kubernetes, you get a very interesting graph. What you're going to see is that VMware, the adoption curve is practically complete and Kubernetes is clearly taking off. And the volume of searches for Kubernetes today is almost as big as VMware. So that's a big sign that this is starting to happen. But in this process, we have to get those companies to have all of their engineers to be up to speed on Kubernetes. And that's one of the community efforts that we're helping with. We built a website called learning.kasten.io We're going to rebrand it soon at CubeCon, so stay tuned, but we're offering hands on labs there for people to actually come learn Kubernetes with us. Because for us, the faster the adoption goes, the better for our business. >> I was just going to ask you about the learning. So there's a big focus here on educating customers to help dial down the complexity and really get them, these numbers up as John was mentioning. >> And we're really breaking it down to the very beginning. So at this point we have almost 10 labs as we call them up and they start really from install a Kubernetes Cluster and people really hands on are going to install a Kubernetes Cluster. They learn to build an application. They learn obviously to back up the application in the safest way. And then there is how to tune storage, how to implement security, and we're really building it up so that people can step by step in a hands on way learn Kubernetes. >> It's interesting, this VMware Explore, their first new name change, but VMWorld prior, big community, a lot of customers, loyal customers, but they're classic and they're foundational in enterprises and let's face it. Some of 'em aren't going to rip out VMware anytime soon because the workloads are running on it. So in Broadcom we'll have some good action to maybe increase prices or whatnot. So we'll see how that goes. But the personas here are definitely going cloud native. They did with Tanzu, was a great thing. Some stuff was coming off, the fruit's coming off the tree now, you're starting to see it. CNCF has been on this for a long, long time, CubeCon's coming up in Detroit. And so that's just always been great, 'cause you had the day zero event and you got all kinds of community activity, tons of developer action. So here they're talking, let's connect to the developer. There the developers are at CubeCon. So the personas are kind of connecting or overlapping. I'd love to get your thoughts, Matt on? >> So from the personnel that we're talking to, there really is a split between the traditional IT ops and a lot of the people that are here today at VMWare Explore, but we're also talking with the SREs and the dev ops folks. What really needs to happen is we need to get a little bit more experience, some more training and we need to get these two groups to really start to coordinate and work together 'cause you're basically moving from that traditional on-prem environment to a lot of these traditional workloads and the only way to get that experience is to get your hands dirty. >> Right. >> So how would you describe the persona specifically here versus say CubeCon? IT ops? >> Very, very different, well-- >> They still go ahead. Explain. >> Well, I mean, from this perspective, this is all about VMware and everything that they have to offer. So we're dealing with a lot of administrators from that regard. On the Kubernetes side, we have site reliability engineers and their goal is exactly as their title describes. They want to architect arch applications that are very resilient and reliable and it is a different way of working. >> I was on a Twitter spaces about SREs and dev ops and there was people saying their title's called dev ops. Like, no, no, you do dev ops, you don't really, you're not the dev ops person-- >> Right, right. >> But they become the dev ops person because you're the developer running operations. So it's been weird how dev ops been co-opted as a position. >> And that is really interesting. One person told me earlier when I started Kasten, we have this new persona. It's the dev ops person. That is the person that we're going after. But then talking to a few other people who were like, "They're not falling from space." It's people who used to do other jobs who now have a more dev ops approach to what they're doing. It's not a new-- >> And then the SRE conversation was in site, reliable engineer comes from Google, from one person managing multiple clusters to how that's evolved into being the dev ops. So it's been interesting and this is really the growth of scale, the 10X developer going to more of the cloud native, which is okay, you got to run ops and make the developer go faster. If you look at the stuff we've been covering on The Cube, the trends have been cloud native developers, which I call dev ops like developers. They want to go faster. They want self-service and they don't want to slow down. They don't want to deal with BS, which is go checking security code, wait for the ops team to do something. So data and security seem to be the new ops. Not so much IT ops 'cause that's now cloud. So how do you guys see that in, because Kubernetes is rationalizing this, certainly on the compute side, not so much on storage yet but it seems to be making things better in that grinding area between dev and these complicated ops areas like security data, where it's constantly changing. What do you think about that? >> Well there are still a lot of specialty folks in that area in regards to security operations. The whole idea is be able to script and automate as much as possible and not have to create a ticket to request a VM to be billed or an operating system or an application deployed. They're really empowered to automatically deploy those applications and keep them up. >> And that was the old dev ops role or person. That was what dev ops was called. So again, that is standard. I think at CubeCon, that is something that's expected. >> Yes. >> You would agree with that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So now translating VM World, VMware Explore to CubeCon, what do you guys see as happening between now and then? Obviously got re:Invent right at the end in that first week of December coming. So that's going to be two major shows coming in now back to back that're going to be super interesting for this ecosystem. >> Quite frankly, if you compare the persona, maybe you have to step away from comparing the personas, but really compare the conversations that we're having. The conversations that you're having at a CubeCon are really deep dives. We will have people coming into our booth and taking 45 minutes, one hour of the time of the people who are supposed to do 10 minute demos because they're asking more and more questions 'cause they want to know every little detail, how things work. The conversations here are more like, why should I learn Kubernetes? Why should I start using Kubernetes? So it's really early day. Now, I'm not saying that in a bad way. This is really exciting 'cause when you hear CNCF say that 97% of enterprises are using Kubernetes, that's obviously that small part of their world. Those are their members. We now want to see that grow to the entire ecosystem, the larger ecosystem. >> Well, it's actually a great thing, actually. It's not a bad thing, but I will counter that by saying I am hearing the conversation here, you guys'll like this on the Veeam side, the other side of the Veeam, there's deep dives on ransomware and air gap and configuration errors on backup and recovery and it's all about Veeam on the other side. Those are the guys here talking deep dive on, making sure that they don't get screwed up on ransomware, not Kubernete, but they're going to Kub, but they're now leaning into Kubernetes. They're crossing into the new era because that's the apps'll end up writing the code for that. >> So the funny part is all of those concepts, ransomware and recovery, they're all, there are similar concepts in the world of Kubernetes and both on the Veeam side as well as the Kasten side, we are supporting a lot of those air gap solutions and providing a ransomware recovery solution and from a air gap perspective, there are a many use cases where you do need to live. It's not just the government entity, but we have customers that are cruise lines in Europe, for example, and they're disconnected. So they need to live in that disconnected world or military as well. >> Well, let's talk about the adoption of customers. I mean this is the customer side. What's accelerating their, what's the conversation with the customer at base, not just here but in the industry with Kubernetes, how would you guys categorize that? And how does that get accelerated? What's the customer situation? >> A big drive to Kubernetes is really about the automation, self-service and reliability. We're seeing the drive to and reduction of resources, being able to do more with less, right? This is ongoing the way it's always been. But I was talking to a large university in Western Canada and they're a huge Veeam customer worth 7000 VMs and three months ago, they said, "Over the next few years, we plan on moving all those workloads to Kubernetes." And the reason for it is really to reduce their workload, both from administration side, cost perspective as well as on-prem resources as well. So there's a lot of good business reasons to do that in addition to the technical reliability concerns. >> So what is those specific reasons? This is where now you start to see the rubber hit the road on acceleration. >> So I would say scale and flexibility that ecosystem, that opportunity to choose any application from that or any tool from that cloud native ecosystem is a big driver. I wanted to add to the adoption. Another area where I see a lot of interest is everything AI, machine learning. One example is also a customer coming from Veeam. We're seeing a lot of that and that's a great thing. It's an AI company that is doing software for automated driving. They decided that VMs alone were not going to be good enough for all of their workloads. And then for select workloads, the more scalable one where scalability was more of a topic, would move to Kubernetes. I think at this point they have like 20% of their workloads on Kubernetes and they're not planning to do away with VMs. VMs are always going to be there just like mainframes still exist. >> Yeah, oh yeah. They're accelerating actually. >> We're projecting over the next few years that we're going to go to a 50/50 and eventually lean towards more Kubernetes than VMs, but it was going to be a mix. >> Do you have a favorite customer example, Tom, that you think really articulates the value of what Kubernetes can deliver to customers where you guys are really coming in and help to demystify it? >> I would think SuperStereo is a really great example and you know the details about it. >> I love the SuperStereo story. They were a AWS customer and they're running OpenShift version three and they need to move to OpenShift version four. There is no upgrade in place. You have to migrate all your apps. Now SuperStereo is a large French IT firm. They have over 700 developers in their environment and it was by their estimation that this was going to take a few months to get that migration done. We're able to go in there and help them with the automation of that migration and Kasten was able to help them architect that migration and we did it in the course of a weekend with two people. >> A weekend? >> A weekend. >> That's a hackathon. I mean, that's not real come on. >> Compared to thousands of man hours and a few months not to mention since they were able to retire that old OpenShift cluster, the OpenShift three, they were able to stop paying Jeff Bezos for a couple of those months, which is tens of thousands of dollars per month. >> Don't tell anyone, keep that down low. You're going to get shot when you leave this place. No, seriously. This is why I think the multi-cloud hybrid is interesting because these kinds of examples are going to be more than less coming down the road. You're going to see, you're going to hear more of these stories than not hear them because what containerization now Kubernetes doing, what Dockers doing now and the role of containers not being such a land grab is allowing Kubernetes to be more versatile in its approach. So I got to ask you, you can almost apply that concept to agility, to other scenarios like spanning data across clouds. >> Yes, and that is what we're seeing. So the call I had this morning with a large insurance provider, you may have that insurance provider, healthcare provider, they're across three of the major hyperscalers clouds and they do that for reliability. Last year, AWS went down, I think three times in Q4 and to have a plan of being able to recover somewhere else, you can actually plan your, it's DR, it's a planned migration. You can do that in a few hours. >> It's interesting, just the sidebar here for a second. We had a couple chats earlier today. We had the influences on and all the super cloud conversations and trying to get more data to share with the audience across multiple areas. One of them was Amazon and that super, the hyper clouds like Amazon, as your Google and the rest are out there, Oracle, IBM and everyone else. There's almost a consensus that maybe there's time for some peace amongst the cloud vendors. Like, "Hey, you've already won." (Tom laughs) Everyone's won, now let's just like, we know where everyone is. Let's go peace time and everyone, then 'cause the relationship's not going to change between public cloud and the new world. So there's a consensus, like what does peace look like? I mean, first of all, the pie's getting bigger. You're seeing ecosystems forming around all the big new areas and that's good thing. That's the tides rise and the pie's getting bigger, there's bigger market out there now so people can share and share. >> I've never worked for any of these big players. So I would have to agree with you, but peace would not drive innovation. And in my heart is with tech innovation. I love it when vendors come up with new solutions that will make things better for customers and if that means that we're moving from on-prem to cloud and back to on-prem, I'm fine with that. >> What excites me is really having the flexibility of being able to choose any provider you want because you do have open standards, being cloud native in the world of Kubernetes. I've recently discovered that the Canadian federal government had mandated to their financial institutions that, "Yes, you may have started all of your on cloud presence in Azure, you need to have an option to be elsewhere." So it's not like-- >> Well, the sovereign cloud is one of those big initiatives, but also going back to Java, we heard another guest earlier, we were thinking about Java, right once ran anywhere, right? So you can't do that today in a cloud, but now with containers-- >> You can. >> Again, this is, again, this is the point that's happening. Explain. >> So when you have, Kubernetes is a strict standard and all of the applications are written to that. So whether you are deploying MongoDB or Postgres or Cassandra or any of the other cloud native apps, you can deploy them pretty much the same, whether they're in AKS, EKS or on Tanzu and it makes it much easier. The world became just a lot less for proprietary. >> So that's the story that everybody wants to hear. How does that happen in a way that is, doesn't stall the innovation and the developer growth 'cause the developers are driving a lot of change. I mean, for all the talk in the industry, the developers are doing pretty good right now. They've got a lot of open source, plentiful, open source growing like crazy. You got shifting left in the CICD pipeline. You got tools coming out with Kubernetes. Infrastructure has code is almost a 100% reality right now. So there's a lot of good things going on for developers. That's not an issue. The issue is just underneath. >> It's a skillset and that is really one of the biggest challenges I see in our deployments is a lack of experience. And it's not everyone. There are some folks that have been playing around for the last couple of years with it and they do have that experience, but there are many people that are still young at this. >> Okay, let's do, as we wrap up, let's do a lead into CubeCon, it's coming up and obviously re:Invent's right behind it. Lisa, we're going to have a lot of pre CubeCon interviews. We'll interview all the committee chairs, program chairs. We'll get the scoop on that, we do that every year. But while we got you guys here, let's do a little pre-pre-preview of CubeCon. What can we expect? What do you guys think is going to happen this year? What does CubeCon look? You guys our big sponsor of CubeCon. You guys do a great job there. Thanks for doing that. The community really recognizes that. But as Kubernetes comes in now for this year, you're looking at probably the what third year now that I would say Kubernetes has been on the front burner, where do you see it on the hockey stick growth? Have we kicked the curve yet? What's going to be the level of intensity for Kubernetes this year? How's that going to impact CubeCon in a way that people may or may not think it will? >> So I think first of all, CubeCon is going to be back at the level where it was before the pandemic, because the show, as many other shows, has been suffering from, I mean, virtual events are not like the in-person events. CubeCon LA was super exciting for all the vendors last year, but the attendees were not really there yet. Valencia was a huge bump already and I think Detroit, it's a very exciting city I heard. So it's going to be a blast and it's going to be a huge attendance, that's what I'm expecting. Second I can, so this is going to be my third personally, in-person CubeCon, comparing how vendors evolved between the previous two. There's going to be a lot of interesting stories from vendors, a lot of new innovation coming onto the market. And I think the conversations that we're going to be having will yet, again, be much more about live applications and people using Kubernetes in production rather than those at the first in-person CubeCon for me in LA where it was a lot about learning still, we're going to continue to help people learn 'cause it's really important for us but the exciting part about CubeCon is you're talking to people who are using Kubernetes in production and that's really cool. >> And users contributing projects too. >> Also. >> I mean Lyft is a poster child there and you've got a lot more. Of course you got the stealth recruiting going on there, Apple, all the big guys are there. They have a booth and no one's attending you like, "Oh come on." Matt, what's your take on CubeCon? Going in, what do you see? And obviously a lot of dynamic new projects. >> I'm going to see much, much deeper tech conversations. As experience increases, the more you learn, the more you realize you have to learn more. >> And the sharing's going to increase too. >> And the sharing, yeah. So I see a lot of deep conversations. It's no longer the, "Why do I need Kubernetes?" It's more, "How do I architect this for my solution or for my environment?" And yeah, I think there's a lot more depth involved and the size of CubeCon is going to be much larger than we've seen in the past. >> And to finish off what I think from the vendor's point of view, what we're going to see is a lot of applications that will be a lot more enterprise-ready because that is the part that was missing so far. It was a lot about the what's new and enabling Kubernetes. But now that adoption is going up, a lot of features for different components still need to be added to have them enterprise-ready. >> And what can the audience expect from you guys at CubeCon? Any teasers you can give us from a marketing perspective? >> Yes. We have a rebranding sitting ready for learning website. It's going to be bigger and better. So we're not no longer going to call it, learning.kasten.io but I'll be happy to come back with you guys and present a new name at CubeCon. >> All right. >> All right. That sounds like a deal. Guys, thank you so much for joining John and me breaking down all things Kubernetes, talking about customer adoption, the challenges, but also what you're doing to demystify it. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you very much. >> Our pleasure. >> Thanks Matt. >> For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube's live coverage of VMware Explore 2022. Thanks for joining us. Stay safe. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explore '22, formerly VMworld. This is our 12th year covering it. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellente. Two sets, three days of wall-to-wall coverage. We're starting to get the execs rolling in from VMware. Sumit Dhawan, president of VMware's here. Great to see you. Great keynote, day one. >> Great to be here, John. Great to see you, Dave. Day one, super exciting. We're pumped. >> And you had no problem with the keynotes. We're back in person. Smooth as silk up there. >> We were talking about it. We had to like dust off a cobweb to make some of these inputs. >> It's not like riding a bike. >> No, it's not. We had about 40% of our agencies that we had to change out because they're no longer in business. So, I have to give kudos to the team who pulled it together. They did a fabulous job. >> You do a great check, great presentation. I know you had a lot to crack in there. Raghu set the table. I know this is for him, this was a big moment to lay out the narrative, address the Broadcom thing right out of the gate, wave from Hock Tan in the audience, and then got into the top big news. Still a lot of meat on the bone. You get up there, you got to talk about the use cases, vSphere 8, big release, a lot of stuff. Take us through the keynote. What was the important highlights for you to share, the folks watching that didn't see the keynote or wanted to get your perspective? >> Well, first of all, did any of you notice that Raghu was running on the stage? He did not do that in rehearsal. (John chuckles) I was a little bit worried, but he really did it. >> I said, I betcha that was real. (everyone chuckles) >> Anyways, the jokes aside, he did fabulous. Lays out the strategy. My thinking, as you said, was to first of all speak with their customers and explain how every enterprise is facing with this concept of cloud chaos that Raghu laid out and CVS Health story sort of exemplifies the situation that every customer is facing. They go in, they start with cloud first, which is needed, I think that's the absolutely right approach. Very quickly build out a model of getting a cloud ops team and a platform engineering team which oftentimes be a parallel work stream to a private cloud infrastructure. Great start. But as Roshan, the CIO at CVS Health laid out, there's an inflection point. And that's when you have to converge these because the use cases are where stakeholders, this is the lines of businesses, app developers, finance teams, and security teams, they don't need this stove piped information coming at 'em. And the converge model is how he opted to organize his team. So we called it a multi-cloud team, just like a workspace team. And listen, our commitment and innovations are to solve the problems of those teams so that the stakeholders get what they need. That's the rest of the keynote. >> Yeah, first of all, great point. I want to call out that inflection point comment because we've been reporting coming into VMworld with super cloud and other things across open source and down into the weeds and into the hood. The chaos is real. So, good call. I love how you guys brought that up there. But all industry inflection points, if you go back in history of the tech industry, at every single major inflection point, there was chaos, complexity, or an enemy proprietary. However you want to look at it, there was a situation where you needed to kind of reign in the chaos as Andy Grove would say. So we're at that inflection point, I think that's consistent. And also the ecosystem floor yesterday, the expo floor here in San Francisco with your partners, it was vibrant. They're all on this wave. There is a wave and an inflection point. So, okay. I buy that. So, if you buy the inflection point, what has to happen next? Because this is where we're at. People are feeling it. Some say, I don't have a problem but they're cut chaos such is the problem. So, where do you see that? How does VMware's team organizing in the industry and for customers specifically to solve the chaos, to reign it in and cross over? >> Yeah, you're a 100% right. Every inflection point is associated with some kind of a chaos that had to be reigned in. So we are focused on two major things right now which we have made progress in. And maybe third, we are still work in-progress. Number one is technology. Today's technology announcements are directly to address how that streamlining of chaos can be done through a cloud smart approach that we laid out. Our Aria, a brand new solution for management, significant enhancements to Tanzu, all of these for public cloud based workloads that also extend to private cloud. And then our cloud infrastructure with newer capabilities with AWS, Azure, as well as with new innovations on vSphere 8 and vSAN 8. And then last but not the least, our continuous automation to enable anywhere workspace. All these are simple innovation that have to address because without those innovations, the problem is that the chaos oftentimes is created because lack of technology and as a result structure has to be put in place because tooling and technology is not there. So, number one goal we see is providing that. Second is we have to be independent, provide support for every possible cloud but not without being a partner of theirs. That's not an easy thing to do but we have the DNA as a company, we have done that with data centers in the past, even though being part of Dell we did that in the data center in the past, we have done that in mobility. And so we have taken the challenge of doing that with the cloud. So we are continually building newer innovation and stronger and stronger partnerships with cloud provider which is the basis of our commercial relationships with Microsoft Azure too, where we have brought Azure VMware solution into VMware cloud universal. Again, that strengthens the value of us being neutral because it's very important to have a Switzerland party that can provide these multi-cloud solutions that doesn't have an agenda of a specific cloud, yet an ecosystem, or at least an influence with the ecosystem that can bring going forward. >> Okay, so technology, I get that. Open, not going to be too competitive, but more open. So the question I got to ask you is what is the disruptive enabler to make that happen? 'Cause you got customers, partners and team of VMware, what's the disruptive enabler that's going to get you to that level? >> Over the hump. I mean, listen, our value is this community. All this community has one of two paths to go. Either, they become stove piped into just the public-private cloud infrastructure or they step up as this convergence that's happening around them to say, "You know what? I have the solution to tame this multi-cloud complexity, to reign the chaos," as you mentioned because tooling and technologies are available. And I know they work with the ecosystem. And our objective is to bring this community to that point. And to me, that is the best path to overcome it. >> You are the connective tissue. I was able to sit into the analyst meeting today. You were sort of the proxy for CVS Health where you talked about the private that's where you started, the public cloud ops team, bringing that together. The platform is the glue. That is the connective tissue. That's where Tanzu comes in. That's where Aria comes in. And that is the disruptive technology which it's hard to build that. >> From a technology perspective, it's an enabler of something that has never been done before in that level of comprehensiveness, from a more of a infrastructure side thinking perspective. Yes, infrastructure teams have enabled self-service portals. Yes, infrastructure teams have given APIs to developers, but what we are enabling through Tanzu is completely next level where you have a lot richer experience for developers so that they never ever have to think about the infrastructure at all. Because even when you enable infrastructure as API, that's still an API of the infrastructure. We go straight to the application tier where they're just thinking about authorized set of microservices. Containers can be orchestrated and built automatically, shifting security left where we're truly checking them or enabling them to check the security vulnerabilities as they're developing the application, not going into the production when they have to touch the infrastructure. To me, that's an enabler of a special power that this new multi-cloud team can have across cloud which they haven't had in the past. >> Yeah, it's funny, John, I'd say very challenging technically. The challenge in 2010 was the software mainframe, remember the marketing people killed that term. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But you think about that. We're going to make virtualization and the overhead associated with that irrelevant. We're going to be able to run any workload and VMware achieved that. Now you're saying we run anything anywhere, any Kubernete, any container. >> That's the reality. That's the chaos. >> And the cloud and that's a new, real problem. Real challenging problem that requires serious engineering. >> Well, I mean it's aspirational, right? Let's get the reality, right? So true spanning cloud, not yet there. You guys, I think your vision is definitely right on in the sense that we'd like the chaos and multicloud's a reality. The question is AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, other clouds, they're not going to sit still. No one's going to let VMware just come up and take everything. You got to enable so the market- >> True, true. I don't think this is the case of us versus them because there is so much that they have to express in terms of the value of every cloud. And this happened in the case of, by the way, whether you go into infrastructure or even workspace solutions, as long as the richest of the experience and richest of the controls are provided, for their cloud to the developers that makes the adoption of their cloud simpler. It's a win-win for every party. >> That's the key. I think the simplest. So, I want to ask you, this comes up a lot and I love that you brought that up, simple and self-service has proven developers who are driving the change, cloud DevOps developers. They're driving the change. They're in charge more than ever. They want self-service, easier to deploy. I want a test, if I don't like it, I want to throw it away. But if I like something, I want to stick with it. So it's got to be self-service. Now that's antithetical to the old enterprise model of solve complexity with more complexity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So the question for you is as the president of VMware, do you feel good that you guys are looking out over the landscape where you're riding into the valley of the future with the demand being automation, completely invisible, abstraction layer, new use case scenarios for IT and whatever IT becomes. Take us through your mindset there, because I think that's what I'm hearing here at this year, VMware Explorer is that you guys have recognized the shift in demographics on the developer side, but ops isn't going away either. They're connecting. >> They're connected. Yeah, so our vision is, if you think about the role of developers, they have a huge influence. And most importantly they're the ones who are driving innovation, just the amount of application development, the number of developers that have emerged, yet remains the scarcest resource for the enterprise are critical. So developers often time have taken control over decision on infrastructure and ops. Why? Because infrastructure and ops haven't shown up. Not because they like it. In fact, they hate it. (John chuckles) Developers like being developers. They like writing code. They don't really want to get into the day to day operations. In fact, here's what we see with almost all our customers. They start taking control of the ops until they go into production. And at that point in time, they start requesting one by one functions of ops, move to ops because they don't like it. So with our approach and this sort of, as we are driving into the beautiful valley of multi-cloud like you laid out, in our approach with the cross cloud services, what we are saying is that why don't we enable this new team which is a reformatted version of the traditional ops, it has the platform engineering in it, the key skill that enables the developer in it, through a platform that becomes an interface to the developers. It creates that secure workflows that developers need. So that developers think and do what they really love. And the infrastructure is seamless and invisible. It's bound to happen, John. Think about it this way. >> Infrastructure is code. >> Infrastructure has code, and even next year, it's invisible because they're just dealing with the services that they need. >> So it's self-service infrastructure. And then you've got to have that capability to simplified, I'll even say automated or computational governance and security. So Chris Wolf is coming on Thursday. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately I won't be here. And he's going to talk about all the future projects. 'Cause you're not done yet. The project narrows, it's kind of one of these boring, but important. >> Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the oven coming out. >> There's really critical projects coming down the pipeline that support this multi-cloud vision, is it's early days. >> Well, this is the thing that we were talking about. I want to get your thoughts on. And we were commenting on the keynote review, Hock Tan bought VMware. He's a lot more there than he thought. I mean, I got to imagine him sitting in the front row going there's some stuff coming out of the oven. I didn't even, might not have known. >> He'd be like, "Hmm, this extra value." (everyone chuckles) >> He's got to be pretty stoked, don't you think? >> He is, he is. >> There's a lot of headroom on the margin. >> I mean, independent to that, I think the strategy that he sees is something that's compelling to customers which is what, in my assessment, speaking with him, he bought VMware because it's strategic to customers and the strategic value of VMware becomes even higher as we take our multi-cloud portfolio. So it's all great. >> Well, plus the ecosystem is now re-energize. It's always been energized, but energized cuz it's sort of had to be, cuz it's such a strong- >> And there was the Dell history there too. >> But, yeah it was always EMC, and then Dell, and now it's like, wow, the ecosystem's- >> Really it's released almost. I like this new team, we've been calling this new ops kind of vibe going refactored ops, as you said, that's where the action's happening because the developers want to go faster. >> They want to go faster. >> They want to go fast cuz the velocity's paying off of them. They don't want to have to wait. They don't want security reviews. They want policy. They want some guardrails. Show me the track. >> That's it. >> And let me drive this car. >> That's it because I mean think about it, if you were a developer, listen, I've been a developer. I never really wanted to see how to operate the code in production because it took time away for developing. I like developing and I like to spend my time building the applications and that's the goal of Aria and Tanzu. >> And then I got to mention the props of seeing project Monterey actually come out to fruition is huge because that's the future of computing architecture. >> I mean at this stage, if a customer from here on is modernizing their infrastructure and they're not investing in a holistic new infrastructure from a hardware and software perspective, they're missing out an opportunity on leveraging the numbers that we were showing, 20% increase in calls. Why would you not just make that investment on both the hardware and the software layer now to get the benefits for the next five-six years. >> You would and if I don't have to make any changes and I get 20% automatically. And the other thing, I don't know if people really appreciate the new curve that the Silicon industry is on. It blows away the history of Moore's law which was whatever, 35-40% a year, we're talking about 100% a year price performance or performance improvements. >> I think when you have an inflection point as we said earlier, there's going to be some things that you know is going to happen, but I think there's going to be a lot that's going to surprise people. New brands will emerge, new startups, new talent, new functionality, new use cases. So, we're going to watch that carefully. And for the folks watching that know that theCUBE's been 12 years with covering VMware VMworld, now VMware Explore, we've kind of met everybody over the years, but I want to point out a little nuance, Raghu thing in the keynote. During the end, before the collective responsibility sustainment commitment he had, he made a comment, "As proud as we are," which is a word he used, there's a lot of pride here at VMware. Raghu kind of weaved that in there, I noticed that, I want to call that out there because Raghu's proud. He's a proud product guy. He said, "I'm a product guy." He's delivering keynote. >> Almost 20 years. >> As proud as we are, there's a lot of pride at VMware, Sumit, talk about that dynamic because you mentioned customers, your customer is not a lot of churn. They've been there for a long time. They're embedded in every single company out there, pretty much VMware is in every enterprise, if not all, I mean 99%, whatever percentage it is, it's huge penetration. >> We are proud of three things. It comes down to number one, we are proud of our innovations. You can see it, you can see the tone from Raghu or myself, or other executives changes with excitement when we're talking about our technologies, we're just proud. We're just proud of it. We are a technology and product centric company. The second thing that sort of gets us excited and be proud of is exactly what you mentioned, which is the customers. The customers like us. It's a pleasure when I bring Roshan on stage and he talks about how he's expecting certain relationship and what he's viewing VMware in this new world of multi-cloud, that makes us proud. And then third, we're proud of our talent. I mean, I was jokingly talking to just the events team alone. Of course our engineers do amazing job, our sellers do amazing job, our support teams do amazing job, but we brought this team and we said, "We are going to get you to run an event after three years from not they doing one, we're going to change the name on you, we're going to change the attendees you're going to invite, we're going to change the fact that it's going to be new speakers who have never been on the stage and done that kind of presentation. >> You're also going to serve a virtual audience. >> And we're going to have a virtual audience. And you know what? They embraced it and they surprised us and it looks beautiful. So I'm proud of the talent. >> The VMware team always steps up. You never slight it, you've got great talent over there. The big thing I want to highlight as we end this day, the segment, and I'll get your thoughts and reactions, Sumit, is again, you guys were early on hybrid. We have theCUBE tape to go back into the video data lake and find the word hybrid mentioned 2013, 2014, 2015. Even when nobody was talking about hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Multicloud, Raghu, I talked to Raghu in 2016 when he did the Pat Gelsinger, I mean Raghu, Pat and Andy Jassy. >> Yeah. >> When that cloud thing got cleared up, he cleared that up. He mentioned multicloud, even then 2016, so this is not new. >> Yeah. >> You had the vision, there's a lot of stuff in the oven. You guys make announcements directionally, and then start chipping away at it. Now you got Broadcom buys VMware, what's in the oven? How much goodness is coming out that's like just hitting the fruits are starting to bear on the tree. There's a lot of good stuff and just put that, contextualize and scale that for us. What's in the oven? >> First of all, I think the vision, you have to be early to be first and we believe in it. Okay, so that's number one. Now having said that what's in the oven, you would see us actually do more controls across cloud. We are not done on networking side. Okay, we announced something as project Northstar with networking portfolio, that's not generally available. That's in the oven. We are going to come up with more capability on supporting any Kubernetes on any cloud. We did some previews of supporting, for example, EKS. You're going to see more of those cluster controls across any Kubernetes. We have more work happening on our telco partners for enablement of O-RAN as well as our edge solutions, along with the ecosystem. So more to come on those fronts. But they're all aligned with enabling customers multi-cloud through these five cross cloud services. They're all really, some of them where we have put a big sort of a version one of solution out there such as Aria continuation, some of them where even the version one's not out and you're going to see that very soon. >> All right. Sumit, what's next for you as the president? You're proud of your team, we got that. Great oven description of what's coming out for the next meal. What's next for you guys, the team? >> I think for us, two things, first of all, this is our momentum season as we call it. So for the first time, after three years, we are now being in, I think we've expanded, explored to five cities. So getting this orchestrated properly, we are expecting nearly 50,000 customers to be engaging in person and maybe a same number virtually. So a significant touchpoint, cuz we have been missing. Our customers have departed their strategy formulation and we have departed our strategy formulation. Getting them connected together is our number one priority. And number two, we are focused on getting better and better at making customers successful. There is work needed for us. We learn, then we code it and then we repeat it. And to me, those are the two key things here in the next six months. >> Sumit, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Thanks for your valuable time, sharing what's going on. Appreciate it. >> Always great to have chatting. >> Here with the president, the CEO's coming up next in theCUBE. Of course, we're John and Dave. More coverage after the short breaks, stay with us. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's day one coverage of HPE. Discover 22 live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Velante of a couple of guests from red hat. You may have seen some news yesterday. We're gonna be talking about that. Please. Welcome Ryan King, the senior director of hardware partner ecosystem, and Lori Fontine joins us as well. The senior director of global commercial partner ecosystem. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, >>Thank you so great to be back in person and nobody word has summit was just last month or so. That's right. Ryan. Talk about hybrid cloud. It's all the buzz. We've been talking a lot about it in the last hour and a half alone. What are some of the trends that, that red hat is seen with respect to hybrid cloud? >>Well, I, I mean, hybrid cloud of red hat has been a trend for quite some time. In fact, we were very early in setting our course towards hybrid cloud with our products and platforms. And that's been a key part of our strategy in terms of the number of transformations have been happening in the enterprise. And with HPE, we're super excited about, you know, we're hitting our stride with OpenShift. I've been working with OpenShift for the better part of my 10 years here at 12 years at red hat, 10 years with OpenShift. And we're very excited about seeing the pattern of going where customers want to build their cloud. It's very important that where, where the market is going. So we're seeing trends from the public cloud now go into edge and telco and 5g and really exceed, see them expanding their infrastructure footprint out to those use cases. And again, we see REL everywhere. So re has continued to expand as well. And then Ansible automation platform has also been a great means of kind of bringing together community for that last mile of automating your entire infrastructure. >>Well, the Lin, the functionality of Linux continues to improve OpenShift is everywhere. I mean, I remember at the red hat summit, I mean, well, we, we, we coined this term super cloud, which is this layer that floats, you know, on-prem took across clouds out to the edge we had Verizon on. They were talking about, you know, 5g developers and how they're developing using, you know, a combination of, of, of OpenShift. So guys have been really crushing it with, with OpenShift. I remember, gosh, I mean, we've been covering, you know, red hat summits for a long time now. And just to see that evolution is actually quite amazing. >>Yeah. It's actually really neat to see our CEOs align too. Right. So the messaging that we've had around hybrid cloud from red hat, like you said, we were kind of the pioneers, honestly, this we've been talking about hybrid cloud from the very beginning. We always knew that it wasn't gonna be public cloud or private cloud. We had to have, you know, hybrid. And, and it's interesting to see that Antonio, you know, took that on and wanted to say, we're gonna do everything as a service right. A few years ago. And, and the whole theme was around hybrid cloud and giving customers that choice. Right? So it's exciting for us to see all of that come together. And I actually worked for HP for like 17 and a half years. So it's really fun for me to be on this side now with red hat and see the messaging come together, the vision come together and just really being able to align and move forward on >>This tremendous amount of transformation in the last few years >>Alone. Oh my gosh, we >>Talk about, you know, customers need choice. They want choice, but you also talked about, we have to meet customers where they are. That seems the last few years to have accelerated, there is no more option for companies. You've gotta meet the customers where they are. >>Exactly. Yeah. And it's all about choice, like you said, and it, everybody's got, you know, their own way to do everything as far as consumption goes and we have to be available and spot on with it, you know, and be able to move quickly with these trends that we're seeing. And so it's great to be aligned. And >>From a partnership standpoint, I mean, you, you mentioned H HP 17 years. I mean, it was, it was a hard to follow company. You had, you had PCs over here, you had services, the kind of the old EDS business. Now there's such a focus absolutely. On this mission, absolutely. Of as a service. And, you know, obviously a key part of that is having optionality and bringing open source tooling into that. I mean, we heard about this in, in spades, at, at red hat summit, which is really interesting this year. It was a smaller VIP event in Boston. And I, and I loved it, you know, cuz it was really manageable. We had all the execs on and customers and partners. It was awesome. What's new since red hat summit. >>Well, I mean, I would say that obviously GreenLake and what we've announced this week is a big new thing for us, but really like we're just continuing on our pattern. We are. Now, if you look at the Q1 report from IBM, you'll see that the growth of the customer base for OpenShift that they reported just continues to go up into the right. You'll see that now, like AMIA is saying that we're like 47.8% of the containers market for the enterprise. You'll see that like we're now in 65% of the fortune 500 with OpenShift, 90% with red hat in general. So we've established our footprint. And when you establish your footprint and customers start taking you out to the edge, we're going into these 5g use cases, we're, we've got an incredible amount happening in the AI space, all these emerging areas of where people are building their cloud, like we're now going to that next level of saying, how do they want to consume it? >>So what's really important to me about that is, is so Omni data around 50% of the market is, is open shift. A people may not realize a lot of people use, you know, do Kubernetes for free, you know, Hey, we're doing Kubernetes, but they don't have that application development framework and all the recovery and all the, the tooling around it. And the reason why I think that's so important, Laurie is ecosystems wanna monetize. So people are paying for things that becomes more interesting and it actually starts to attract people just naturally. >>Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of ecosystem, I mean, that's the beauty of what we're doing with GreenLake too. We're taking on a building block approach. So we're really, it's kind of ISV as a service if you will. And you know, personally, I, this was my baby for the past couple years, trying to make sure that we took into consideration every partner use case, every customer use case. So we created an agreement that would make sense to be able to scale, but also to meet all the demands of our customers. And so the, the what's really exciting about this is now we have a chance to take this building block approach, scale it out to all types of partner types, right throughout the entire ecosystem and build offerings together. That is really exciting for us. And that's where we see the real potential here with GreenLake and with red hat, >>What's actually available inside a GreenLake. >>So we are starting with OpenShift. So OpenShift will be available in Q3 that will follow in Q4 with re and then after that Ansible. So we're, we're moving very quickly to bring our platforms into it and it's really our strategic platforms, but it's all based on customer demand. We know we're seeing amazing transformation of customers moving to Kubernetes. You said, you know, OpenShift is Kubernetes with useful additions to it and an ecosystem around it, right? So that transformation is also happening at the bare metal layer. So we're seeing people move into Kubernetes bare metal, which is an amazing growth market for us. >>Explain those useful additions if you would. So why shouldn't I just go out and, and get the free version of Kubernete? Why should I engage red hat and, and OpenShift? What do I get? >>So you get all the day, two management stuff, you get, we have a whole set of additional stuff you can purchase around it, OpenShift platform. Plus you can get our ACM, our advanced cluster management. So you wanna manage multiple clusters, right? You get the ACS, the security side of it. You can also get ODF. So you get storage built into it as well. And we've done all these integrations. You can manage the whole thing as a cluster or as multiple clusters with the whole enterprise support and the long term support that we provide for these things up to 10 years. So >>When you look at the early days lease of, of Kubernetes, it was really, the focus was on simplicity. You had other platforms that were actually doing more sophisticated cluster management. And the, the committers that in Kubernetes said, you know, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna keep it simple. And so that leave some holes and gaps and you know, they're starting to fill those, but what if, if correct me if I'm wrong, but what red hat has done is said, okay, we're gonna accelerate, you know, the, the, the closing of those gaps and stay ahead and actually offer incremental value. And that's why you're winning in the marketplace. >>Well, we're an open company, so we're still doing everything upstream and open source as we do, of course, sticking with, you know, the APIs and APIs to make this all work, both, you know, in terms of what the community's trying to drive, what we're trying to drive for our customers on their behalf. And then just where things are going from a technology basis, make it a lot of investment, >>But you have to, you have to make a red hat, has to make a choice as to where it puts its commitments. You can't spread yourself too thin, so you gotta pick your spots. And you've, you've proven that you're pretty adept at doing that. >>That just comes back to customer centricity, right. And just knowing where our customers need to take the platform. That's, >>That's easy to say, but it's, it's an art form. And a little bit of science. >>Remember these customers have experts that are deep in this space. So it's like, you know, those experts trust us with where they needed to go. And they trust us to help shepherd that and deliver that as a platform to them. So it's not like anybody tell us what you want, right? Like it's really about like, knowing what's the best way to do it. And working with the people that can help you understand how to apply that to their use case >>And within the customer environment, who are you working with? Who is that key constituent or constituents that are guiding red hat in this direction? >>Well, it's certainly infrastructure folks. So it's your, it's your standard folks that are looking at the, how do we lay down our infrastructure? How do we manage it? How do we grow it? It goes out to the application developers. They're trying to deliver this in a cloud native way. And we have new personas, you know, coming in with the AI practitioners, right? So we've announced at before summit at Invidia's event, their new offering called Invidia AI enterprise. And so that's them bringing in enterprise support for GPU, for Kuda and for a software stack above that to start offering some more support there. So they're certifying OpenShift, we're both certifying the servers that run underneath it, and then they're offering support for their stuff on top of it. And that's a whole new use case for us. >>And, you know, I should also mention that even though this paper use with the GreenLake is new for us, and we just had this big announcement, we have done GreenLake deals though. We've done numerous GreenLake deals with our annual subs, right? So I, so even though this is new to us, as far as, you know, monthly utilization and being able to do this cloud consumption this isn't new to us as two companies coming together, we've been doing GreenLake deals for the past couple years. It's just, now we have this cloud consumption availability, which is really gonna make this thing launch. So, >>So what have been some of the customer benefits so far, you've been doing it for a couple years. The announcement was yesterday, but there's obviously feed on the street going on. What are some of the, the big outcomes that you're seeing customers actually bring to reality? >>I think speed and agility, right? That's the biggest thing with, with our products, being able to have it everything predictable and being able to have it consumed one way, instead of having this fragmented customer experience, which is, you know, what we've seen in the past. So I think that's the biggest thing is speed agility and just, you know, a really good customer experience at this point. >>Go get it, please. >>I would say the customer experience is critical. Yes. That's one of the things that we know that in terms of, of patients wearing thin the last couple of years, people expect to have a really strong consumer experience regardless of what you're doing, regardless of what industry and so attention and mind on that is a differentiator in my opinion. >>Absolutely. Yeah. And we've gotta constantly keep our eye on that. I mean, that's, that's our north star, if you will. Right. So, and Lori, >>I know you've saying you're, you've done GreenLake deals in the past, but what feels different to me now in that it's actually coalescing some of the things that Alma Russo announced this morning, the platform on which, you know, ISV is a service. I think you, you called it. Yeah. You, it, it now seems like, you know, look a couple years ago, HP said, okay, this is the direction that we're going. Yeah. They weren't there at that time. And they're still not there. There's a lot of work to be, to be done. But now it's starting to form. You're seeing, you know, the pieces come together, the puzzle pieces that sort of substrate being laid out. And now you're hoping that we see the steep part of the S-curve and that's what customers I think are expecting. >>Right. And it's bringing that operating model to move to a monthly model so they can do pay as you go. Right. And that pairs up nicely with like the cloud native capabilities we're bringing to OpenShift and hybrid cloud in general. So it's, it just shows like we're already getting demand from customers. It's saying like, this is part of our model. Like we know a certain amount of infrastructure we wanna own, and we just wanna own it outright, but there's a lot that they want to have flexibility on. And so being able to add that portion to it is just, you know, gonna help us both. >>And you think about the critical aspects of, of the cloud operating model. It's obviously pay as you go it's, you know, massive scale it's ecosystem enablement, and also automation. I mean, that is, that is a key, what's your point of view on that? You guys with Ansible, you, you, you know, you go back to a couple years ago and it was, you know, there was this, there were a lot of other tooling, but now, I mean, Ansible is really taken off. Yeah. >>It's just, you know, Cinderella story, right? Like it really an amazing community driven thing where we just knew, we all know this, right. You have, when you get to the very last mile of doing infrastructure management, there's a variety of devices, there's variety, a variety of vendors. And then you have like the variety of skills of the people that have to figure out how to do automate all of this. And what Ansible did is it provided a common language across all of that. And so what we do with automation, our, an ible automation platform is we make it. So now teams can manage all of this together and they can share their playbooks and they can host that privately for all their enterprise stuff that they need to do. So it's just, you know, it fits our DNA so well to have something so community driven now with a really nice enterprise message wrapped around it. And it's playing out very well for where, you know, hybrid cloud. Right. Cause there's some more additional variety. You need to be able to manage, you know, across all of your different footprints, because really it's like, it's not just about flexibility and scale up scale down it's where do you need it to run at what time? Right. And that, that last leg Ansible plays a key role in that. >>And we actually, Ansible will be coming further down the, you know, the patch. I know we're gonna talk a little bit about what's available today versus what's available down the road, but yeah, we have that on the radar. So right outta the gate, we're working on OpenShift, obviously bare metal. And we see that happening in Q3 and then behind that as well in Q4 and then Ansible is gonna be right behind that. So that's kind of the order that, and there's other pieces, right? So our whole portfolio is basically available to HP right now. It's just making sure that we can operationalize everything and have the best experience >>All inside of GreenLake, >>All inside a GreenLake. Yeah. Pretty neat. Lori >>Question for you. You've been, you were with HP for a very long time. This is obviously the first discover in three years in person. Exactly. You know, three years ago, Antonio near stood on stage and said, we are going to buy 20, 22. And here we are deliver everything as a service, as a partner and as a former HP, what are you seeing at this discover 22? >>It's it's so interesting. I it's such a sea change if you will. Right. And having come from HPE, I actually led the software as a service organization for a while on the software side of things. And we thought that was like state of the art and cutting edge that was 10, 11, 12 years ago. Right. So to actually see this come to life, because we were all thinking really, everything is a service. How are you gonna do that? Like your entire portfolio is gonna be available. Like that is lofty. Right. And having worked at HP, I thought, wow, I don't, you know, I know things take time. And, but actually just even being around the showcase here and watching everything come to life is amazing. Cause I, I, you know, I, I was very positive about it, but at the same time, it's like that, that was a big goal three years. Right. And it's, I'm seeing it happen >>A big goal in two of those years during a pandemic. Right. So right. Talk about lofty. Oh my gosh. Quite a bit of accomplishments guys. Thank you so much for joining David me on the program talking about actually guys, this is great. What red hat and HPE are doing your power partnership, power ship. Is that a word? It is now your power. >>I like >>That with GreenLake. We appreciate that. We'll look forward to having you guys back on. >>Thank you so much, guys. >>All right. For our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante. We are at HPE discover 22 live from the show floor in Las Vegas. This is just day one of our cupboards stick around. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>> Announcer: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, my co-host, Paul Gillin, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We're going to talk, or continue to talk to amazing people. The coverage has been amazing, but also the city of Valencia is beautiful. I have to eat a little crow, I landed and I saw the convention center, Paul, have you got out and explored the city at all? >> Absolutely, my first reaction to Valencia when we were out in this industrial section was, "This looks like Cincinnati." >> Yes. >> But then I got on the bus second day here, 10 minutes to downtown, another world, it's almost a middle ages flavor down there with these little winding streets and just absolutely gorgeous city. >> Beautiful city. I compared it to Charlotte, no disrespect to Charlotte, but this is an amazing city. Naina Singh, Principal Product Manager at Red Hat, and Roland Huss, also Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. We're going to talk a little serverless. I'm going to get this right off the bat. People get kind of feisty when we call things like Knative serverless. What's the difference between something like a Lambda and Knative? >> Okay, so I'll start. Lambda is, like a function as a server, right? Which is one of the definitions of serverless. Serverless is a deployment platform now. When we introduced serverless to containers through Knative, that's when the serverless got revolutionized, it democratized serverless. Lambda was proprietary-based, you write small snippets of code, run for a short duration of time on demand, and done. And then Knative which brought serverless to containers, where all those benefits of easy, practical, event-driven, running on demand, going up and down, all those came to containers. So that's where Knative comes into picture. >> Yeah, I would also say that Knative is based on containers from the very beginning, and so, it really allows you to run arbitrary workloads in your container, whereas with Lambda you have only a limited set of language that you can use and you have a runtime contract there which is much easier with Knative to run your applications, for example, if it's coming in a language that is not supported by Lambda. And of course the most important benefit of Knative is it's run on top of Kubernetes, which allows you- >> Yes. >> To run your serverless platform on any other Kubernetes installation, so I think this is one of the biggest thing. >> I think we saw about three years ago there was a burst of interest around serverless computing and really some very compelling cost arguments for using it, and then it seemed to die down, we haven't heard a lot about serverless, and maybe I'm just not listening to the right people, but what is it going to take for serverless to kind of break out and achieve its potential? >> Yeah, I would say that really the big advantage of course of Knative in that case is that you can scale down to zero. I think this is one of the big things that will really bring more people onto board because you really save a lot of money with that if your applications are not running when they're not used. Yeah, I think also that, because you don't have this vendor log in part thing, when people realize that you can run really on every Kubernete platform, then I think that the journey of serverless will continue. >> And I will add that the event-driven applications, there hasn't been enough buzz around them yet. There is, but serverless is going to bring a new lease on life on them, right? The other thing is the ease of use for developers. With Knative, we are introducing a new programming model, the functions, where you don't even have to create containers, it would do create containers for you. >> So you create the servers, but not the containers? >> Right now, you create the containers and then you deploy them in a serverless fashion using Knative. But the container creation was on the developers, and functions is going to be the third component of Knative that we are developing upstream, and Red Hat donated that project, is going to be where code to cloud capability. So you bring your code and everything else will be taken care of, so. >> So, I'd call a function or, it's funny, we're kind of circular with this. What used to be, I'd write a function and put it into a container, this server will provide that function not just call that function as if I'm developing kind of a low code no code, not no code, but a low code effort. So if there's a repetitive thing that the community wants to do, you'll provide that as a predefined function or as a server. >> Yeah, exactly. So functions really helps the developer to bring their code into the container, so it's really kind of a new (indistinct) on top of Knative- >> on top op. >> And of course, it's also a more opinionated approach. It's really more closer coming to Lambda now because it also comes with a programming model, which means that you have certain signature that you have to implement and other stuff. But you can also create your own templates, because at the end what matters is that you have a container at the end that you can run on Knative. >> What kind of applications is serverless really the ideal platform? >> Yeah, of course the ideal application is a HTTP-based web application that has no state and that has a very non-uniform traffic shape, which means that, for example, if you have a business where you only have spikes at certain times, like maybe for Super Bowl or Christmas, when selling some merchandise like that, then you can scale up from zero very quickly at a arbitrary high depending on the load. And this is, I think, the big benefit over, for example, Kubernetes Horizontal Pod Autoscaling where it's more like indirect measures of value scaling based on CPR memory, but here, it directly relates one to one to the traffic that is coming in to concurrent request. Yeah, so this helps a lot for non-uniform traffic shapes that I think this has become one of the ideal use case. >> Yeah. But I think that is one of the most used or defined one, but I do believe that you can write almost all applications. There are some, of course, that would not be the right load, but as long as you are handling state through external mechanism. Let's say, for example you're using database to save the state, or you're using physical volume amount to save the state, it increases the density of your cluster because when they're running, the containers would pop up, when your application is not running, the container would go down, and the resources can be used to run any other application that you want to us, right? >> So, when I'm thinking about Lambda, I kind of get the event-driven nature of Lambda. I have a S3 bucket, and if a S3 event is driven, then my functions as the server will start, and that's kind of the listening servers. How does that work with Knative or a Kubernetes-based thing? 'Cause I don't have an event-driven thing that I can think of that kicks off, like, how can I do that in Kubernetes? >> So I'll start. So it is exactly the same thing. In Knative world, it's the container that's going to come up and your servers in the container, that will do the processing of that same event that you are talking. So let's say the notification came from S3 server when the object got dropped, that would trigger an application. And in world of Kubernetes, Knative, it's the container that's going to come up with the servers in it, do the processing, either find another servers or whatever it needs to do. >> So Knative is listening for the event, and when the event happens, then Knative executes the container. >> Exactly. >> Basically. >> So the concept of Knative source which is kind of adapted to the external world, for example, for the S3 bucket. And as soon as there is an event coming in, Knative will wake up that server, will transmit this event as a cloud event, which is another standard from the CNCF, and then when the server is done, then the server spins down again to zero so that the server is only running when there are events, which is very cost effective and which people really actually like to have this kind of way of dynamic scaling up from zero to one and even higher like that. >> Lambda has been sort of synonymous with serverless in the early going here, is Knative a competitor to Lambda, is it complimentary? Would you use the two together? >> Yeah, I would say that Lambda is a offering from AWS, so it's a cloud server there. Knative itself is a platform, so you can run it in the cloud, and there are other cloud offerings like from IBM, but you can also run it on-premise for example, that's the alternative. So you can also have hybrid set scenarios where you really can put one part into the cloud, the other part on-prem, and I think there's a big difference in that you have a much more flexibility and you can avoid this kind of Windows login compared to AWS Lambda. >> Because Knative provides specifications and performance tests, so you can move from one server to another. If you are on IBM offering that's using Knative, and if you go to a Google offering- >> A google offering. >> That's on Knative, or a Red Hat offering on Knative, it should be seamless because they're both conforming to the same specifications of Knative. Whereas if you are in Lambda, there are custom deployments, so you are only going to be able to run those workloads only on AWS. >> So KnativeCon, co-located event as part of KubeCon, I'm curious as to the level of effort in the user interaction for deploying Knative. 'Cause when I think about Lambda or cloud-run or one of the other functions as a servers, there is no backend that I have to worry about. And I think this is where some of the debate becomes over serverless versus some other definition. What's the level of lifting that needs to be done to deploy Knative in my Kubernetes environment? >> So if you like... >> Is this something that comes as based part of the OpenShift install or do I have to like, you know, I have to... >> Go ahead, you answer first. >> Okay, so actually for OpenShift, it's a code layer product. So you have this catalog of operator that you can choose from, and OpenShift Serverless is one part of that. So it's really kind of a one click install where you have also get a default configuration, you can flexibly configure it as you like. Yeah, we think that's a good user experience and of course you can go to these cloud offerings like Google Cloud one or IBM Code Engine, they just have everything set up for you. And the idea of other different alternatives, you have (indistinct) charts, you can install Knative in different ways, you also have options for the backend systems. For example, we mentioned that when an event comes in, then there's a broker in the middle of something which dispatches all the events to the servers, and there you can have a different backend system like Kafka or AMQ. So you can have very production grade messaging system which really is responsible for delivering your events to your servers. >> Now, Knative has recently, I'm sorry, did I interrupt you? >> No, I was just going to say that Knative, when we talk about, we generally just talk about the serverless deployment model, right? And the Eventing gets eclipsed in. That Eventing which provides this infrastructure for producing and consuming event is inherent part of Knative, right? So you install Knative, you install Eventing, and then you are ready to connect all your disparate systems through Events. With CloudEvents, that's the specification we use for consistent and portable events. >> So Knative recently admitted to the, or accepted by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, incubating there. Congratulations, it's a big step. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> How does that change the outlook for Knative adoption? >> So we get a lot of support now from the CNCF which is really great, so we could be part of this conference, for example which was not so easy before that. And we see really a lot of interest and we also heard before the move that many contributors were not, started into looking into Knative because of this kind of non being part of a mutual foundation, so they were kind of afraid that the project would go away anytime like that. And we see the adoption really increases, but slowly at the moment. So we are still ramping up there and we really hope for more contributors. Yeah, that's where we are. >> CNCF is almost synonymous with open source and trust. So, being in CNCF and then having this first KnativeCon event as part of KubeCon, we are hoping, and it's a recent addition to CNCF as well, right? So we are hoping that this events and these interviews, this will catapult more interest into serverless. So I'm really, really hopeful and I only see positive from here on out for Knative. >> Well, I can sense the excitement. KnativeCon sold out, congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> I can talk about serverless all day, it's a topic that I really love, it's a fascinating way to build applications and manage applications, but we have a lot more coverage to do today on "theCUBE" from Spain. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillin, and you're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat introductory music) >> Welcome back to VMworld 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and right now we're going to talk to one of VMware's partners and unpack how containers and cloud native development processes and tools are changing the way we think about managing storage. And specifically, we're going to dig into the partnership between VMware and Portworx company acquired by Pure Storage last September. And with me is Michael Ferranti, who's a senior director of product marketing at Portworx, which as said, is now part of Pure Storage. Michael, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you again. >> Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Now, Michael, if you're in storage, you got to partner with VMware. So that's always been an important relationship for Pure, and of course that's carried over to Portworx, but how does Portworx work with VMware? Where does it fit within the VMware ecosystem? And, and, you know, what's your point of view on, on VMware's Kubernetes play? We'll, we'll come back to that, but, but how do you fit in? >> How do we fit in yet? Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, customers who are building modern applications are often doing it on Kubernetes platforms and VM-ware has a fantastic Kubernetes platform with Tansu and, you know, customers when they run applications that have data on Kubernetes, they have certain requirements around data protection around data security, data mobility, and Portworx has a platform that solves those problems for customers on any Kubernetes platform in regardless of infrastructure. So, so a VMware customer is saying, you know what? I love the idea of being able to run Tansu across my on-prem data center and my cloud footprint. And I want to move my databases, or between those environments, or, you know, maybe just make a backup of my database and put it in the cloud. Well, when they add Portworx into their Tansu environment, they get the ability to do those types of things, data protection, data mobility. And so we help customers expand their Tansu footprint by solving the requirements that come along with modern applications. >> Yeah. And that's important because as we've covered extensively in theCUBE in the early days of containers, well containers have been around forever, but the, the early days of modern containers, if you will, you know, the applications, the data was a femoral kind of throw away if you will, but, but over time it's become more, more stateful requiring better security and governance and recovery. And the like, so Michael, what's your point of view on VMware's Kubernete play, you talked about Tansu, it's a big part of the strategy. It's an ongoing topic of conversation in the community and there's other solutions of course, like OpenShift, which, which also runs on VMware. What's your perspective on VMware's progression? How they're innovating with Kubernetes orchestration specifically? >> Well, I think VMware is making a lot of smart moves and you know, other players on the market should not buy a discount. I think, you know, there's a lot of interest in Tansu and, you know, we're having conversations and we're kind of expanding our relationship with VMware to solve a broader swath of those use cases. So I think it's going to be a compelling offer in the market. That's what makes this ecosystem so fun is that there is, you know, there are multiple, there are multiple solutions from the cloud providers, from the kind of independent kind of non-cloud associated platform vendors like VMware or Red Hat, but that makes it really exciting. >> Let's back up a bit, maybe talk about some of the big picture trends and maybe some of the challenges. Portworx. You were early on in the management of storage for containers. And I got to say you personally, and I mean that, you created a new distribution channel through developers and dev-op teams who, they became really influential in storage decisions, which they never were before. >> Yep. >> That's a completely new dynamic. So maybe talk about the evolution of storage for containers that you've witnessed. Where do we come from? Where are we today and where are we headed? >> Yeah, I mean, what's interesting is that so on a certain level, what works is a storage, a storage solution for containers. In fact, don't call us the gold standard of Kubernetes storage, really proud of that. Love any time someone calls you a gold standard, but here's the thing, are the people that buy Portworx don't typically buy storage, these are platform, architects, they're dev-ops engineers, and what they need is they need to consume storage the same way that they needed to consume, compute in network, but they're not storage administrators. And so what Portworx did, and other companies in the ecosystem is they've given an API driven self-service experience or what were classically ticket based infrastructure of purchases. And that has accelerated developer's ability to, to build and run applications. And especially with Kubernetes, being able to orchestrate that. And I think now, even within the VMware ecosystem where VMware clearly has strong relationships with the typical infrastructure buyers, but now those infrastructure buyers are seeing what their, what their dev-ops peers are doing. And they're saying, "Hey, we want that too. We want API driven. We want self-service, we don't like tickets anymore than you do." And so being able to kind of solve enterprise level requirements on whether it's around data protection or data security, but in our model that that allows for self-service in, in API driven-ness, that's not a word, really opens up a lot of possibilities. And I think in some ways it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because when you can solve enterprise level requirements, but also provide agility, then people want as much of it as you can possibly provide them. >> So that, that dev-ops mindset that train has left the station. It's got a lot of momentum. It's not, we're not going to flip that. So what happens in your view to the role of that storage admin that you talk about this, he or she does it that they widened their scope? Does that, does their activities, does it evolve? Does there go away? Did they become, did they become ops-dev pros? How do you see that? >> Yeah, it's a, it's a great, it's a great question. And we've been thinking a lot about this. We actually have a new product out called Portworx Data Services. And what it is is it's a database as a service platform for Kubernetes. So imagine you're running Portworx on top of, on top of Tansu and what your, what your company wants to do, what IT wants to do, is provide a service catalog to developers internally, where they can click a button and have an elastic search cluster, or click a button and, you know, Postgres database, what now these storage administrators can actually become a SRES, which is kind of, you know, that's, that's what we call these really senior dev-ops engineers at places like Google and Twitter and Uber, where you're actually responsible for using code and software to run applications. And so with services like PDS there, those individuals can, can uplevel their value within the organization and provide a bigger impact. >> Yeah, I love that. So they're going from basically pulling tickets, you know, putting out fires, dealing with paper cuts to actually having a much more strategic role within the organization. >> Exactly. From infrastructure to applications. I mean, applications is where the business value always is, and you need agile infrastructure in order to run agile applications. But if you only solve, if you only have agile infrastructure, then you still haven't solved a business problem and PDS is enabling our customers to solve those real business problems. >> Well, that leads me into my next question, because a lot of organizations of course have renewed their focus on digital drive. Every organization has, has no choice if you're not digital business, you're out of business. But, but what I mean there is we were kind of forced into digital last year and, and now organizations are stepping back and they're being more planful. So there's an emphasis on modernizing infrastructure and applications. What's the role that you see of Kubernetes and VMs in that shift to modernizing the, the infrastructure apps and the business? >> Yeah. And so what we saw in the pandemic is companies that had to do more with less. And despite that those that adopted Kubernetes were able to accelerate application development, they were able to scale their applications faster. In fact, we have one customer, Roblox, a massively popular online gaming platform for kind of, you know, a tween age kids. They actually IPO-D during the pandemic in the first week that kind of that March timeframe, the beginning of the pandemic, they scaled in a single month, what they had scaled in the entire previous year. And the only way they were able to do that was with these modern architectures. So companies have had firsthand experience saying, okay, when we, when we build cloud native, when we use microservices, when we use Kubernetes, we can scale faster, we can get to the market quicker. And so let's keep those learnings and let's accelerate them. And so, you know, the reason we're doing a pure validated design with, with, with Tansu and Portworx is to help the VMware ecosystem take advantage as well of those modern architectures so that they can get the benefits, not just of the agile infrastructure stack provided by VMware, but also the, the applications here that goes along with it. >> So, I mean, you made the point before, it's all about the applications and take that further. It's all about the, the value that you, the time to value that you can get out of deploying applications. So based on what you just said about those with, versus those without, during the pandemic, that begs the question, why wouldn't everybody have done that? So the question is what are the biggest challenges that you're seeing in terms of adopting and deploying Kubernetes in production? >> Yeah. So actually I have some data that I can share on us. We just did a survey of 500 IT pros across the US and UK with significant knowledge of their company's Kubernetes strategy who are currently running data services on Kubernetes. And so we asked them, "how's that going for you?" And what they told us is basically what I, what I just said earlier that they're 55% can get apps to market faster. 50% of their developers are more, more efficient. And actually a third of those say in addition, we're actually able to reduce our, our IT infrastructure costs. But why? Why isn't everybody doing it? And as we ask those questions and they're struggling with business requirements around backup and recovery, data mobility, data security. And I think that is that's the missing piece, which is when you can figure it out. And, you know, if you're Uber or you're, you know, you're Facebook, you can hire engineers to figure anything out, right? Given enough time and budget, you can solve anything with computers, but for the vast majority of organizations, they need a solution to enable them to have the same outcomes as the companies who can build everything themselves. And so with, you know, with Portworx Data Services by, by adding Portworx into your Tansu environment, you actually get kind of quote unquote for free, a lot of those business requirements that are, that are holding back enterprise adoption of critical applications within the Kubernetes ecosystem. And as a result, then you can accelerate a larger portion of your application portfolio. >> Hey Michael, so one of the good things about virtual events, particularly VMworld, is you don't have to fly out on a Saturday, a Sunday and come back on a Friday. The flip side of that is you don't get the hallway track, you know, so it's an awesome event. It really kind of kicks off the fall season. So help the audience. What are you looking for at VMworld 2021 that's relevant to your space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I'm interested in anything that really kind of, you know, helps customers figure out how to really embrace hybrid and multi-cloud. I mean, it feels a little bit like it's, it's the infrastructure week of the political world that it's all, we're always talking about it, but it's never happening, but I'm actually seeing a lot of, a lot of movement to suggest both in our own customer base as well on new products that are coming to market that are really helping customers take advantage of this multi and hybrid cloud world. So I think it's really happening. So I'm looking for announcements around that. I'm also always interested in security because I think, you know, the online world is just a more and more dangerous place every day, whether it's ransom ware attacks or other more traditional security threats. And so I think, you know, as a community, we need to figure out ways in which we can both enable customers to move faster, deliver apps more quickly, scale them more quickly, but also make them more secure. And that's why it was really hard to see on our survey that when people apply automation through platforms like Tansu or Kubernetes more broadly, that they actually get security benefits in addition to kind of the, you know, the scale and the productivity benefits. So I'm looking for more announcements to come out on that front as well. >> If I could follow up on that, because historically the more secure you are, the less flexibility you have, the reverse is true. The more flexibility you give users, the less secure they are. Now, I'm hearing that that may not apply in the case of, well, actually, probably the answer is it probably does apply in the case of Kubernetes and containers, but that's why they need Portworx. But, but square that circle for me, because. >> Yeah, so it, there is usually a trade-off it's, you know, we really value security, so we're going to slow down and we're going, going to take a very, you know, progressive approach to rolling out changes to securing access, to limiting, you know, who can have access to data, et cetera. The, the flip side is, you know, it's move fast and break things, kind of the mantra of Silicon valley, which, you know, you, you say that to a financial institution on the east coast, and they're going to kind of roll your eyes and say, "what are you smoking?" So I, there is a way to solve it and computers are, can, can take the very, very deliberate approach except they do it extremely fast. So it doesn't look as deliberate. So basically what I'm saying is you can build in security best practices, but then use fleets of servers to run all of those checks, to make sure that the person who is trying to access the system is the one in my enterprise off system that should be able to access that system. And so you can basically get manual people-based checks out of the way, because you're leveraging automation that is doing those tests. It's not like we're, we're, we're letting things be open. It's just, we're leveraging computers or the things that they're really good at. And that's how you square that circle, which automation enables you to put in place more checks than you can do manually, but they happen a lot faster. And so you end up getting the best of both worlds and kind of breaking this longstanding tension between agility and security. >> And in a key linchpin of that, I'm assuming is APIs that allow you to connect to whatever the best of breed, identity governance and access management system you want to use. >> Exactly. So we have one example is we have Key-X Secure. So this is all about role based access controls and encryption for your mission, critical data that's running on convenience. Well, we have APIs for that and we, and, you know, we build it into things like Portworx Data Services. And build it into things like our storage boxes. So all a dev-ops engineer has to do is say, yeah, I want this app to be secure, meaning encrypted, and that's going to follow my role based access controls that I'm defining in my corporate off system. And then it's automatically applied. That's really, the key is something is only secured if you actually do it. And a lot of times, because it's so cumbersome, either developers look for work-arounds, or they just, they basically don't do it. It gets bolted on at the end. The kind of phrase of art within the security shift left bring more of that stuff earlier. But I think it applies not just to security, but also to data protection, to data mobility. Let's build all of that stuff in right from the beginning. And that's one of the big design principles of Portworx. >> One of the discussions we're always having is, okay, we've seen this rapid shift to digital. This has so many ripple effects what's permanent. So what are the big changes or trends that you think are going to be permanent or will dominate not just VMworld this year, but, but the themes for the coming years. >> Yeah. So what genies are out of the bottle, and I think a big one is just from an architectural perspective, this new to microservices. I mean, it just, it makes so much sense for so many reasons. You know, how often do we, any of us get a maintenance notification anymore from a consumer service that we got, we use, whether it's, you know, restaurant delivery, whether it's, you know, streaming, whether it's even, you know, you know, health, a health app that we're using, we don't, but that's very common in the enterprise that you would shut down. You know, the ERP system for, you know, three days, you know, every six months to do an update. So that stuff is going away. And the way in which we no longer have to issue those notifications is we have microservices that can be independently updated that can use kind of specialized tooling. That makes sense for the job. So I have an app that really needs the indexing capabilities of elastic search. Versus I have an app that needs the very quiet, fast data processing of the Santra. And so the development teams can be more independent for one another, have less dependencies develop applications faster and get those products to market faster. And I think the, the pandemic has demonstrated how, you know, I'll say Amazon wasn't successful because of the pandemic. And a lot of people say, oh, well, of course they sell online. So this pandemic was a boom for them. Well, they actually created architectures that were able to withstand the massive increase in demand that they got. Our customer Roblox is another example. If they did not have those, those same, those architectures that enable them to scale at those levels, then I, you know, Roblox wouldn't have been able to IPO because they would've just been a story about everybody wanted to play Roblox, the website crashed. End of story. So it's about building architectures that allow you to take advantage of this movement towards digital. And I don't think that's going away, but this is where the solutions like Tansu come in, you know, folks don't know how to do it. And they need platforms that make it easy. They need platforms that enable them to secure their data, to make it available, to protect it. And so, you know, combinations of like, Portworx and Tansu really solve some of the issues that come up in this, this shift to microservices. >> Michael, great stuff, really appreciate your perspectives. And thanks for coming back on theCUBE. >> Yeah, my pleasure anytime. And hopefully we'll be able to do it in person one of these days. >> I hope so. All right. Hey, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching the continuous coverage of theCUBE's coverage of VMworld 2021. Keep it right there. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to AWS storage day. This is the Cubes continuous coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're going to talk about file storage. 80% of the world's data is in unstructured storage. And most of that is in file format. Devs want infrastructure as code. They want to be able to provision and manage storage through an API, and they want that cloud agility. They want to be able to scale up, scale down, pay by the drink. And the big news of storage day was really the partnership, deep partnership between AWS and NetApp. And with me to talk about that as Ed Naim, who's the general manager of Amazon FSX and Anthony Lye, executive vice president and GM of public cloud at NetApp. Two Cube alums. Great to see you guys again. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> So Ed, let me start with you. You launched FSX 2018 at re-invent. How has it being used today? >> Well, we've talked about MSX on the Cube before Dave, but let me start by recapping that FSX makes it easy to, to launch and run fully managed feature rich high performance file storage in the cloud. And we built MSX from the ground up really to have the reliability, the scalability you were talking about. The simplicity to support, a really wide range of workloads and applications. And with FSX customers choose the file system that powers their file storage with full access to the file systems feature sets, the performance profiles and the data management capabilities. And so since reinvent 2018, when we launched this service, we've offered two file system choices for customers. So the first was a Windows file server, and that's really storage built on top of Windows server designed as a really simple solution for Windows applications that require shared storage. And then Lustre, which is an open source file system that's the world's most popular high-performance file system. And the Amazon FSX model has really resonated strongly with customers for a few reasons. So first, for customers who currently managed network attached storage or NAS on premises, it's such an easy path to move their applications and their application data to the cloud. FSX works and feels like the NAZA appliances that they're used to, but added to all of that are the benefits of a fully managed cloud service. And second, for builders developing modern new apps, it helps them deliver fast, consistent experiences for Windows and Linux in a simple and an agile way. And then third, for research scientists, its storage performance and its capabilities for dealing with data at scale really make it a no-brainer storage solution. And so as a result, the service is being used for a pretty wide spectrum of applications and workloads across industries. So I'll give you a couple of examples. So there's this class of what we call common enterprise IT use cases. So think of things like end user file shares the corporate IT applications, content management systems, highly available database deployments. And then there's a variety of common line of business and vertical workloads that are running on FSX as well. So financial services, there's a lot of modeling and analytics, workloads, life sciences, a lot of genomics analysis, media and entertainment rendering and transcoding and visual effects, automotive. We have a lot of electronic control units, simulations, and object detection, semiconductor, a lot of EDA, electronic design automation. And then oil and gas, seismic data processing, pretty common workload in FSX. And then there's a class of, of really ultra high performance workloads that are running on FSX as well. Think of things like big data analytics. So SAS grid is a, is a common application. A lot of machine learning model training, and then a lot of what people would consider traditional or classic high performance computing or HPC. >> Great. Thank you for that. Just quick follow-up if I may, and I want to bring Anthony into the conversation. So why NetApp? This is not a Barney deal, this was not elbow grease going into a Barney deal. You know, I love you. You love me. We do a press release. But, but why NetApp? Why ONTAP? Why now? (momentary silence) Ed, that was to you. >> Was that a question for Anthony? >> No, for you Ed. And then I want to bring Anthony in. >> Oh, Sure. Sorry. Okay. Sure. Yeah, I mean it, uh, Dave, it really stemmed from both companies realizing a combined offering would be highly valuable to and impactful for customers. In reality, we started collaborating in Amazon and NetApp on the service probably about two years ago. And we really had a joint vision that we wanted to provide AWS customers with the full power of ONTAP. The complete ONTAP with every capability and with ONTAP's full performance, but fully managed an offer as a full-blown AWS native service. So what that would mean is that customers get all of ONTAP's benefits along with the simplicity and the agility, the scalability, the security, and the reliability of an AWS service. >> Great. Thank you. So Anthony, I have watched NetApp reinvent itself started in workstations, saw you go into the enterprise, I saw you lean into virtualization, you told me at least two years, it might've been three years ago, Dave, we are going all in on the cloud. We're going to lead this next, next chapter. And so, I want you to bring in your perspective. You're re-inventing NetApp yet again, you know, what are your thoughts? >> Well, you know, NetApp and AWS have had a very long relationship. I think it probably dates now about nine years. And what we really wanted to do in NetApp was give the most important constituent of all an experience that helped them progress their business. So ONTAP, you know, the industry's leading shared storage platform, we wanted to make sure that in AWS, it was as good as it was on premise. We love the idea of giving customers this wonderful concept of symmetry. You know, ONTAP runs the biggest applications in the largest enterprises on the planet. And we wanted to give not just those customers an opportunity to embrace the Amazon cloud, but we wanted to also extend the capabilities of ONTAP through FSX to a new customer audience. Maybe those smaller companies that didn't really purchase on premise infrastructure, people that were born in the cloud. And of course, this gives us a great opportunity to present a fully managed ONTAP within the FSX platform, to a lot of non NetApp customers, to our competitors customers, Dave, that frankly, haven't done the same as we've done. And I think we are the benefactors of it, and we're in turn passing that innovation, that, that transformation onto the, to the customers and the partners. >> You know, one is the, the key aspect here is that it's a managed service. I don't think that could be, you know, overstated. And the other is that the cloud nativeness of this Anthony, you mentioned here, our marketplace is great, but this is some serious engineering going on here. So Ed maybe, maybe start with the perspective of a managed service. I mean, what does that mean? The whole ball of wax? >> Yeah. I mean, what it means to a customer is they go into the AWS console or they go to the AWS SDK or the, the AWS CLI and they are easily able to provision a resource provision, a file system, and it automatically will get built for them. And if there's nothing that they need to do at that point, they get an endpoint that they have access to the file system from and that's it. We handle patching, we handle all of the provisioning, we handle any hardware replacements that might need to happen along the way. Everything is fully managed. So the customer really can focus not on managing their file system, but on doing all of the other things that they, that they want to do and that they need to do. >> So. So Anthony, in a way you're disrupting yourself, which is kind of what you told me a couple of years ago. You're not afraid to do that because if we don't do it, somebody else is going to do it because you're, you're used to the old days, you're selling a box and you say, we'll see you next time, you know, three or four years. So from, from your customer's standpoint, what's their reaction to this notion of a managed service and what does it mean to NetApp? >> Well, so I think the most important thing it does is it gives them investment protection. The wonderful thing about what we've built with Amazon in the FSX profile is it's a complete ONTAP. And so one ONTAP cluster on premise can immediately see and connect to an ONTAP environment under FSX. We can then establish various different connectivities. We can use snap mirror technologies for disaster recovery. We can use efficient data transfer for things like dev test and backup. Of course, the wonderful thing that we've done, that we've gone beyond, above and beyond, what anybody else has done is we want to make sure that the actual primary application itself, one that was sort of built using NAS built in an on-premise environment an SAP and Oracle, et cetera, as Ed said, that we can move those over and have the confidence to run the application with no changes on an Amazon environment. So, so what we've really done, I think for customers, the NetApp customers, the non NetApp customers, is we've given them an enterprise grade shared storage platform that's as good in an Amazon cloud as it was in an on-premise data center. And that's something that's very unique to us. >> Can we talk a little bit more about those, those use cases? You know, both, both of you. What are you seeing as some of the more interesting ones that you can share? Ed, maybe you can start. >> Yeah, happy to. The customer discussions that we've, we've been in have really highlighted four cases, four use cases the customers are telling us they'll use a service for. So maybe I'll cover two and maybe Anthony can cover the other two. So, the first is application migrations. And customers are increasingly looking to move their applications to AWS. And a lot of those are applications work with file storage today. And so we're talking about applications like SAP. We're talking about relational databases like SQL server and Oracle. We're talking about vertical applications like Epic and the healthcare space. As another example, lots of media entertainment, rendering, and transcoding, and visual effects workload. workflows require Windows, Linux, and Mac iOS access to the same set of data. And what application administrators really want is they want the easy button. They want fully featured file storage that has the same capabilities, the same performance that their applications are used to. Has extremely high availability and durability, and it can easily enable them to meet compliance and security needs with a robust set of data protection and security capabilities. And I'll give you an example, Accenture, for example, has told us that a key obstacle their clients face when migrating to the cloud is potentially re-architecting their applications to adopt new technologies. And they expect that Amazon FSX for NetApp ONTAP will significantly accelerate their customers migrations to the cloud. Then a second one is storage migrations. So storage admins are increasingly looking to extend their on-premise storage to the cloud. And why they want to do that is they want to be more agile and they want to be responsive to growing data sets and growing workload needs. They want to last to capacity. They want the ability to spin up and spin down. They want easy disaster recovery across geographically isolated regions. They want the ability to change performance levels at any time. So all of this goodness that they get from the cloud is what they want. And more and more of them also are looking to make their company's data accessible to cloud services for analytics and processing. So services like ECS and EKS and workspaces and App Stream and VMware cloud and SageMaker and orchestration services like parallel cluster and AWS batch. But at the same time, they want all these cloud benefits, but at the same time, they have established data management workflows, and they build processes and they've built automation, leveraging APIs and capabilities of on-prem NAS appliances. It's really tough for them to just start from scratch with that stuff. So this offering provides them the best of both worlds. They get the benefits of the cloud with the NAS data management capabilities that they're used to. >> Right. >> Ed: So Anthony, maybe, do you want to talk about the other two? >> Well, so, you know, first and foremost, you heard from Ed earlier on the, the, the FSX sort of construct and how successful it's been. And one of the real reasons it's been so successful is, it takes advantage of all of the latest storage technologies, compute technologies, networking technologies. What's great is all of that's hidden from the user. What FSX does is it delivers a service. And what that means for an ONTAP customer is you're going to have ONTAP with an SLA and an SLM. You're going to have hundreds of thousands of IOPS available to you and sub-millisecond latencies. What's also really important is the design for FSX and app ONTAP was really to provide consistency on the NetApp API and to provide full access to ONTAP from the Amazon console, the Amazon SDK, or the Amazon CLI. So in this case, you've got this wonderful benefit of all of the, sort of the 29 years of innovation of NetApp combined with all the innovation AWS, all presented consistently to a customer. What Ed said, which I'm particularly excited about, is customers will see this just as they see any other AWS service. So if they want to use ONTAP in combination with some incremental compute resources, maybe with their own encryption keys, maybe with directory services, they may want to use it with other services like SageMaker. All of those things are immediately exposed to Amazon FSX for the app ONTAP. We do some really intelligent things just in the storage layer. So, for example, we do intelligent tiering. So the customer is constantly getting the, sort of the best TCO. So what that means is we're using Amazon's S3 storage as a tiered service, so that we can back off code data off of the primary file system to give the customer the optimal capacity, the optimal throughput, while maintaining the integrity of the file system. It's the same with backup. It's the same with disaster recovery, whether we're operating in a hybrid AWS cloud, or we're operating in an AWS region or across regions. >> Well, thank you. I think this, this announcement is a big deal for a number of reasons. First of all, it's the largest market. Like you said, you're the gold standard. I'll give you that, Anthony, because you guys earned it. And so it's a large market, but you always had to make previously, you have to make trade-offs. Either I could do file in the cloud, but I didn't get the rich functionality that, you know, NetApp's mature stack brings, or, you know, you could have wrapped your stack in Kubernete's container and thrown it into the cloud and hosted it there. But now that it's a managed service and presumably you're underneath, you're taking advantage. As I say, my inference is there's some serious engineering going on here. You're taking advantage of some of the cloud native capabilities. Yeah, maybe it's the different, you know, ECE two types, but also being able to bring in, we're, we're entering a new data era with machine intelligence and other capabilities that we really didn't have access to last decade. So I want to, I want to close with, you know, give you guys the last word. Maybe each of you could give me your thoughts on how you see this partnership of, for the, in the future. Particularly from a customer standpoint. Ed, maybe you could start. And then Anthony, you can bring us home. >> Yeah, well, Anthony and I and our teams have gotten to know each other really well in, in ideating around what this experience will be and then building the product. And, and we have this, this common vision that it is something that's going to really move the needle for customers. Providing the full ONTAP experience with the power of a, of a native AWS service. So we're really excited. We're, we're in this for the long haul together. We have, we've partnered on everything from engineering, to product management, to support. Like the, the full thing. This is a co-owned effort, a joint effort backed by both companies. And we have, I think a pretty remarkable product on day one, one that I think is going to delight customers. And we have a really rich roadmap that we're going to be building together over, over the years. So I'm excited about getting this in customer's hands. >> Great, thank you. Anthony, bring us home. >> Well, you know, it's one of those sorts of rare chances where you get to do something with Amazon that no one's ever done. You know, we're sort of sitting on the inside, we are a peer of theirs, and we're able to develop at very high speeds in combination with them to release continuously to the customer base. So what you're going to see here is rapid innovation. You're going to see a whole host of new services. Services that NetApp develops, services that Amazon develops. And then the whole ecosystem is going to have access to this, whether they're historically built on the NetApp APIs or increasingly built on the AWS APIs. I think you're going to see orchestrations. I think you're going to see the capabilities expand the overall opportunity for AWS to bring enterprise applications over. For me personally, Dave, you know, I've demonstrated yet again to the NetApp customer base, how much we care about them and their future. Selfishly, you know, I'm looking forward to telling the story to my competitors, customer base, because they haven't done it. So, you know, I think we've been bold. I think we've been committed as you said, three and a half years ago, I promised you that we were going to do everything we possibly could. You know, people always say, you know, what's, what's the real benefit of this. And at the end of the day, customers and partners will be the real winners. This, this innovation, this sort of, as a service I think is going to expand our market, allow our customers to do more with Amazon than they could before. It's one of those rare cases, Dave, where I think one plus one equals about seven, really. >> I love the vision and excited to see the execution Ed and Anthony, thanks so much for coming back in the Cube. Congratulations on getting to this point and good luck. >> Anthony and Ed: Thank you. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube's continuous coverage of AWS storage day. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Okay. Now we're going to dig deeper into HPE Ezmeral and try to better understand how it's going to impact customers. And with me to do that are Robert Christiansen, who is the Vice President of Strategy in the office of the CTO and Kumar Sreekanti, who is the Chief Technology Officer and Head of Software, both of course, with Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >> Good seeing you, Dave. Thanks for having us. >> It's always good to see you guys. >> Thanks for having us. >> So, Ezmeral, kind of an interesting name, catchy name, but Kumar, what exactly is HPE Ezmeral? >> It's indeed a catchy name. Our branding team has done fantastic job. I believe it's actually derived from Esmeralda, is the Spanish for emarald. Often it's supposed some very mythical bars, and they derived Ezmeral from there. And we all initially when we heard, it was interesting. So, Ezmeral was our effort to take all the software, the platform tools that HPE has and provide this modern operating platform to the customers and put it under one brand. So, it has a modern container platform, it does persistent storage with the data fabric and it doesn't include as many of our customers from that. So, think of it as a modern container platform for modernization and digitazation for the customers. >> Yeah, it's an interesting, you talk about platform, so it's not, you know, a lot of times people say product, but you're positioning it as a platform so that has a broader implication. >> That's very true. So, as the customers are thinking of this digitazation, modernization containers and Microsoft, as you know, there is, has become the stable all. So, it's actually a container orchestration platform with golfers open source going into this as well as the persistence already. >> So, by the way, Ezmeral, I think Emerald in Spanish, I think in the culture, it also has immunity powers as well. So immunity from lock-in, (Robert and Kumar laughing) and all those other terrible diseases, maybe it helps us with COVID too. Robert, when you talk to customers, what problems do you probe for that Ezmeral can do a good job solving? >> Yeah, that's a really great question because a lot of times they don't even know what it is that they're trying to solve for other than just a very narrow use case. But the idea here is to give them a platform by which they can bridge both the public and private environment for what they do, the application development, specifically in the data side. So, when yo're looking to bring containerization, which originally got started on the public cloud and it has moved its way, I should say it become popular in the public cloud and it moved its way on premises now, Ezmeral really opens the door to three fundamental things, but, you know, how do I maintain an open architecture like you're referring to, to some low or no lock-in of my applications. Number two, how do I gain a data fabric or a data consistency of accessing the data so I don't have to rewrite those applications when I do move them around. And then lastly, where everybody's heading, the real value is in the AI ML initiatives that companies are really bringing and that value of their data and locking that data at where the data is being generated and stored. And so the Ezmeral platform is those multiple pieces that Kumar was talking about stacked together to deliver the solutions for the client. >> So Kumar, how does it work? What's the sort of IP or the secret source behind it all? What makes HPE different? >> Yeah. Continuing on (indistinct) it's a modern glass form of optimizing the data and workloads. But I think I would say there are three unique characteristics of this platform. Number one is that it actually provides you both an ability to run statefull and stateless as workloads under the same platform. And number two is, as we were thinking about, unlike another Kubernete is open source, it actually add, use you all open-source Kurbenates as well as an orchestration behind them so you can actually, you can provide this hybrid thing that Robert was talking about. And then actually we built the workflows into it, for example, they'll actually announced along with it Ezmeral, ML expert on the customers can actually do the workflow management around specific data woakload. So, the magic is if you want to see the secrets out of all the efforts that has been going into some of the IP acquisitions that HPE has done over the years, we said we BlueData, MAPR, and the Nimble, all these pieces are coming together and providing a modern digitization platform for the customers. >> So these pieces, they all have a little bit of a machine intelligence in them, you have people, who used to think of AI as this sort of separate thing, I mean the same thing with containers, right? But now it's getting embedded into the stack. What is the role of machine intelligence or machine learning in Ezmeral? >> I would take a step back and say, you know, there's very well the customers, the amount of data that is being generated and 95% or 98% of the data is machine generated. And it does a series of a window gravity, and it is sitting at the edge and we were the only one that had edge to the cloud data fabric that's built to it. So, the number one is that we are bringing computer or a cloud to the data that taking the data to the cloud, right, if you will. It's a cloud like experience that provides the customer. AI is not much value to us if we don't harness the data. So, I said this in one of the blog was we have gone from collecting the data, to the finding the insights into the data, right. So, that people have used all sorts of analysis that we are to find data is the new oil. So, the AI and the data. And then now your applications have to be modernized and nobody wants write an application in a non microservices fashion because you wanted to build the modernization. So, if you bring these three things, I want to have a data gravity with lots of data, I have built an AI applications and I want to have those three things I think we bring to the customer. >> So, Robert let's stay on customers for a minute. I mean, I want to understand the business impact, the business case, I mean, why should all the cloud developers have all the fun, you've mentioned it, you're bridging the cloud and on-prem, they talk about when you talk to customers and what they are seeing is the business impact, what's the real drivers for that? >> That's a great question cause at the end of the day, I think the recent survey that was that cost and performance are still the number one requirement for this, just real close second is agility, the speed at which they want to move and so those two are the top of mind every time. But the thing we find Ezmeral, which is so impactful is that nobody brings together the Silicon, the hardware, the platform, and all of that stack together work and combine like Ezmeral does with the platforms that we have and specifically, we start getting 90, 92, 93% utilization out of AI ML workloads on very expensive hardware, it really, really is a competitive advantage over a public cloud offering, which does not offer those kinds of services and the cost models are so significantly different. So, we do that by collapsing the stack, we take out as much intellectual property, excuse me, as much software pieces that are necessary so we are closest to the Silicon, closest to the applications, bring it to the hardware itself, meaning that we can interleave the applications, meaning that you can get to true multitenancy on a particular platform that allows you to deliver a cost optimized solution. So, when you talk about the money side, absolutely, there's just nothing out there and then on the second side, which is agility. One of the things that we know is today is that applications need to be built in pipelines, right, this is something that's been established now for quite some time. Now, that's really making its way on premises and what Kumar was talking about with, how do we modernize? How do we do that? Well, there's going to be some that you want to break into microservices containers, and there's some that you don't. Now, the ones that they're going to do that they're going to get that speed and motion, et cetera, out of the gate and they can put that on premises, which is relatively new these days to the on-premises world. So, we think both won't be the advantage. >> Okay. I want to unpack that a little bit. So, the cost is clearly really 90 plus percent utilization. >> Yes. >> I mean, Kumar, you know, even pre virtualization, we know that it was like, even with virtualization, you never really got that high. I mean, people would talk about it, but are you really able to sustain that in real world workloads? >> Yeah. I think when you make your exchangeable cut up into smaller pieces, you can insert them into many areas. We have one customer was running 18 containers on a single server and each of those containers, as you know, early days of new data, you actually modernize what we consider week run containers or microbiome. So, if you actually build these microservices, and you all and you have versioning all correctly, you can pack these things extremely well. And we have seen this, again, it's not a guarantee, it all depends on your application and your, I mean, as an engineer, we want to always understand all of these caveats work, but it is a very modern utilization of the platform with the data and once you know where the data is, and then it becomes very easy to match those two. >> Now, the other piece of the value proposition that I heard Robert is it's basically an integrated stack. So I don't have to cobble together a bunch of open source components, there's legal implications, there's obviously performance implications. I would imagine that resonates and particularly with the enterprise buyer because they don't have the time to do all this integration. >> That's a very good point. So there is an interesting question that enterprises, they want to have an open source so there is no lock-in, but they also need help to implement and deploy and manage it because they don't have the expertise. And we all know that the IKEA desk has actually brought that API, the past layer standardization. So what we have done is we have given the open source and you arrive to the Kubernetes API, but at the same time orchestration, persistent stories, the data fabric, the AI algorithms, all of them are bolted into it and on the top of that, it's available both as a licensed software on-prem, and the same software runs on the GreenLake. So you can actually pay as you go and then we run it for them in a colo or, or in their own data center. >> Oh, good. That was one of my latter questions. So, I can get this as a service pay by the drink, essentially I don't have to install a bunch of stuff on-prem and pay it perpetualized... >> There is a lot of containers and is the reason and the lapse of service in the last discover and knowledge gone production. So both Ezmeral is available, you can run it on-prem, on the cloud as well, a congenital platform, or you can run instead on GreenLake. >> Robert, are there any specific use case patterns that you see emerging amongst customers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple of them. So we have a, a really nice relationship that we see with any of the Splunk operators that were out there today, right? So Splunk containerized, their operator, that operator is the number one operator, for example, for Splunk in the IT operation side or notifications as well as on the security operations side. So we've found that that runs highly effective on top of Ezmeral, on top of our platforms so we just talked about, that Kumar just talked about, but I want to also give a little bit of backgrounds to that same operator platform. The way that the Ezmeral platform has done is that we've been able to make it highly active, active with HA availability at nine, it's going to be at five nines for that same Splunk operator on premises, on the Kubernetes open source, which is as far as I'm concerned, a very, very high end computer science work. You understand how difficult that is, that's number one. Number two is you'll see just a spark workloads as a whole. All right. Nobody handles spark workloads like we do. So we put a container around them and we put them inside the pipeline of moving people through that basic, ML AI pipeline of getting a model through its system, through its trained, and then actually deployed to our ML ops pipeline. This is a key fundamental for delivering value in the data space as well. And then lastly, this is, this is really important when you think about the data fabric that we offer, the data fabric itself doesn't necessarily have to be bolted with the container platform, the container, the actual data fabric itself, can be deployed underneath a number of our, you know, for competitive platforms who don't handle data well. We know that, we know that they don't handle it very well at all. And we get lots and lots of calls for people saying, "Hey, can you take your Ezmeral data fabric "and solve my large scale, "highly challenging data problems?" And we say, "yeah, "and then when you're ready for a real world, "full time enterprise ready container platform, "we'd be happy to prove that too." >> So you're saying you're, if I'm inferring correctly, you're one of the values as you're simplifying that whole data pipeline and the whole data science, science project pun intended, I guess. (Robert and Kumar laughing) >> That's true. >> Absolutely. >> So, where does a customer start? I mean, what, what are the engagements like? What's the starting point? >> It's means we're probably one of the most trusted and robust supplier for many, many years and we have a phenomenal workforce of both the (indistinct), world leading support organization, there are many places to start with. One is obviously all these salaries that are available on the GreenLake, as we just talked about, and they can start on a pay as you go basis. There are many customers that actually some of them are from the early days of BlueData and MAPR, and then already running and they actually improvise on when, as they move into their next version more of a message. You can start with simple as well as container platform or system with the store, a computer's operation and can implement as an analyst to start working. And then finally as a big company like HPE as an everybody's company, that finance it's services, it's very easy for the customers to be able to get that support on day to day operations. >> Thank you for watching everybody. It's Dave Vellante for theCUBE. Keep it right there for more great content from Ezmeral.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of coop con and cloud native con North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back, everybody Jeffrey here with the cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today with our ongoing coverage of coupon cloud native con North America, 2020. It's not really North America, it's virtual like everything else, but you know that the European show earlier in the summer, and this is the, this is the late fall show. So we're excited to welcome in our very next two guests. Uh, first joining us from Madrid. Spain is Miguel Perez, Kaleena. He is a principal product manager from red hat, Miguel. Great to see you. >>Good to see you happy to be in the cube. >>Yes. Great. Well welcome. And joining us from North Carolina is rich Sharples. He is a senior director, product management of red hat. Rich. Great to see you. >>Yeah, likewise, thanks for inviting me again. >>So we're talking about Java today and before we kind of jump into it, you know, in preparing for this rich, I saw an interview that you did, I think earlier about halfway through the year, uh, celebrating the 25th anniversary of Java and talking about the 25th anniversary Java. And before we kind of get into the future, I think it's worthwhile to take a look back at, you know, kind of where Java came from and how it's lasted for 25 years of such an important enterprise, you know, kind of application framework, because we always hear jokes about people looking for COBOL programmers or, you know, all these old language programmers, because they have some old system that's that needs a little assist. What's special about Java. Why are we 25 years into it? And you guys are still excited about Java yesterday, today and in the future. >>Yeah. And I should add that, um, in terms of languages, uh, twenty-five is actually still pretty young. Java's, uh, kind of middle aged, I guess. Um, you know, things like CC plus bus rrr you're 45, 50 years old Python, I think is about the same as Java in terms of years. So, you know, the languages do tend to move at a, um, at a, they do tend to stick around, uh, uh, a bit, well what's made Java really, really important for enterprises building business critical applications is it started off with a very large ecosystem of big vendors supporting it. Um, it was open in a sense from the very start and it's remained open as in open source and an open community as well. So that's really, really helped, um, you know, keep the language innovating and moving along and attracting new developers. And, um, it's, it's still a fairly modern language in terms of some of the new features it's advancing with the industry taking on new kinds of workloads and new kinds of per program paradigms as well. So, you know, it's, it's evolved very well and has a huge base out somewhere between 11 and 13 million developers still use it as a primary development language in professional settings. Yeah. >>What struck me about what you said though in that interview was kind of the evolution and how Java has been able to continue to adapt based on kind of what the new frameworks are. So whether it was early days in a machine, like you talked about being in a set top box, or, you know, kind of really lightweight kind of almost IOT applications then to be calming, you know, this really a great application to deliver enterprise applications via a web browser and that, you know, and it continues to morph and change and adapt over time. I thought that was pretty interesting given the vast change in the way applications are delivered today versus what they were 25 years ago. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, the very early days were around embedded devices, uh, intelligent toasters and, you know, whatever. Um, and, and then where it really, really took off was, but the building supporting big backend systems, big transactional workloads, whether you're a bank or an airline you're running both the scale, but also running really, really complex transactional systems that were business critical. And that's that's for the last, you know, 15 years has been, um, where it's, it's really shown building backend, um, systems. Now, as we kind of move forward, you know, the idea of, uh, um, like server side, uh, server side application versus a front end is kind of changed. You know, now we're talking microservices, we're talking about running in containers. So really the focus of where we run Java and the kinds of applications we're building with Java as this has radically changed. And as such the language has to change as well, which is, you know, one, I'm pretty excited to talk about caucus today. >>So let's, let's jump into it and talk about corcus cause the other big trend, you know, along with, with, with obviously, uh, uh, browsers being great enterprise applications, delivery vehicles is this thing called containers, right? And, and specifically more recently Kubernetes is the one that's grabbing all the attention and grabbing all the, all the momentum. Um, so I wonder Miguel, if you could talk about, you know, kind of as, as the popularity of containerized applications and containerized to everything right, containerized storage, or you even talked about containerizing networking, troll, how that's impacted, uh, what you guys are doing and the impact of Java, uh, and making it work with kind of a containerized Kubernetes world. >>Well, what we found is that the paradigm of development has teeth. So we have this top up, uh, uh, paradigm that the people are following to be able to do the best with containers, to the best with Kubernetes on the, this has worked quite fine in Greenfield on for, for many cases has been a way to develop applications faster, to be able to obtain variably salts. And the thing is that for many, uh, users, for many companies that we work with, uh, they also want to bring some of their stuff that the applications that are currently are running into this world. And, uh, I mean, we, we walk especially a lot in helping these customers be able to adopt those obligations, but we try to do it, uh, as we say, the N pixie dust, you know, we really dig into the code, we'll review the code with modernize. The application will help their customer with that application. We provide the tools are open for anyone to be able to review it and to be able to take it. So we are moving away from Greenfield into brownfield and not a way we are evolving together to say we more precise, you know, all these Greenfield applications keep coming, but also the current applications want to be more organized. >>Right. Right. So it's pretty interesting. Cause that's always the big conversation. There's, it's, it's all fine. And good if you're just building something new, uh, to use the latest tools. But as you mentioned, there's a whole lot of conversation about application modernization and this is really an opportunity to apply some of these techniques to do that. So quirky. So I wonder if you just give, let's just jump into it. What is it at the highest level? Uh, what's it all about? What should people know? >>Yeah. So, so Corker says I'm reading an attempt by red hat to ensure Java is a first-class citizen in containerized environments, but building reactive applications, uh, cloud native applications, uh, functions, Java is an incredible piece of engineering. It does some incredible things. It sudden can self optimize. As it's running in line code, it can do some really amazing things the longer it runs, but in a containerized environment, you're likely not going to be running huge amounts of code. You'd likely be running microservices and your, your services are likely to have a kind of limited life cycle as we you're able to deploy more frequently or in a function environment where, you know, you've been bought once and then you're done, um, you know, during all those long, um, kind of, um, those optimizations over time, don't really, um, make a lot of sense. So what we can do is remove a lot of the, um, the weights of Java, a lot of the complexity of Java, and we can optimize for an environment where your code is maybe just running for a few microseconds as in the case of the function or something running in native, cause you scale up and scale down. >>So we move a lot of the op side. We move a lot of the, um, the, the efforts within the application, uh, to compile time, we pre compile all of your, of your config and initialization, so that doesn't have to happen in your, um, your, your, your runtime or your production environment. Um, and then we can optimize the code week. We can, we can remove that code. We can remove, you know, whole, uh, trees and class libraries and really slimmed down the memory footprint and radically, um, slim, the Maddie memory footprint, um, increase the startup time as well. So, you know, you have less downtime in your applications. Um, and we've recently done a S a study with ADC that shows some pretty stunning results compared to, you know, some existing frameworks. And, you know, we get, um, you know, sort of like, you know, overall cost savings of, you know, 60, 64%. >>Um, we can get eight times better density. You're running more in a, in a, in a cluster and, um, you know, reduction in memory up to 90% as well. So it's, these are significant changes now. That's all good, you know, saving, saving 60, 60% on your operational costs is significant. But what we find is that most organizations, they come for the performance and the optimizations, but what actually stay for is the speed of development. So I think, I think caucus real silver bullets is, um, the developer productivity, you know, for organizations, the cost of development is still one of the major costs. I mean, the operational costs, the hosting costs a significant, but development costs, time to market will always be top of mind for organizations that are trying to move faster than the competition. And I think that's really where, um, um, caucus special and coupled in, uh, in, uh, OpenShift or Coobernetti's environment really, really does shine. Yeah, >>It's pretty interesting. So people can go to corcus.io and see a lot of the statistics that you just referenced in terms of memory usage and speed and, and whole bunch of stuff. But what struck me when I went to the site was that was this big, uh, uh, two words that jumped out developer joy. And it's funny that you talked on that just now about really, um, the benefits that come to the developer directly to make them happier. I mean, really calling out their joy. So they're more productive and ultimately that's what you said. That's where the great value is in terms of speed of deployment, happy developers, and productive developers. You know, Miguel, you get your, you get down into the weeds of this stuff. Again, the presentations on your LinkedIn, everyone needs to go look and you talk a lot about at migration and you lot talk a lot about app modernization. So without going through all 120 some odd slides that I think you have, which is good, phenomenal information, what are some of the top things that people need to think about and consider both for app modernization as well as at migration? >>Um, that's, that's, that's an interesting question. Uh, the thing is that, um, the tolling is important on the current code is, and the thing is that normally when, when we started migration project, we tried to find architects in the applications to be able to find patterns. You know, you find parents is much easier because, uh, once you solve one part on the same part on can be solved in a very similar way. So this is one of the parts of that. We focus a lot, but before getting to that point, it's very important how you stop, you know, so the assessment phase is, is very important to be able to review well, what is the status of the applications, the context of the applications. And with that, I mean, things like, for example, the requirements that they have, there's the maintenance that they take in their resiliency and so on. >>So you have to prepare very well, the project by starting with a good assessment, you have to check which applications makes more, make more sense to start with and see which, how to group them together by similarities. And then you can start with the project that saying, okay, let's go for these set of applications that make more sense that are more likely to be containerized because of the way we are developing them because of the dependencies that they have because of the resiliency that is already embedded into them and so on. So that, that the methodology is important. And we normally, for example, when we, when we help partners do a application migration, one of the things that we stress is that this is the methodology that we follow and in the website for my vision, totally for application, you can find also, um, methodology, uh, part that, uh, could help, uh, people understand, okay, these, these are the stages that we normally follow to be successful with migrating applications. >>Yeah. Let go. You don't, we're not friends. We don't hang out a lot, but if we did, you would know I never ever recommend PowerPoint for anything. So, so the fact that I'm calling out your PowerPoint actually means something. Cause I think it's the worst application ever built, but you got some tremendous, tremendous information in there and people do need to go in and look, and again, it's all from your LinkedIn work, but I wanted to shift gears a little bit, right? We're at CubeCon cloud native con. Um, obviously it's virtual is 2020. That's the way the world today. But I just curious to get your guys' take on, on what does this, uh, event mean for you obviously really active, open source community, you know, red hat has a long open-source history. Um, what does CubeCon cloud native con mean for you guys? What do you hope to get out of it? What should people hope to, uh, to learn from red hat? >>Yeah, we, um, yeah, we're, we're buying your DNA. We're very, very collaborative. Uh, we, we love to learn from our customers, users of the technologies, um, in the communities that we support. Um, speaking as a, you know, we're both product guys, there's nothing better than getting with, um, people that actually use the products, um, in anger, in real life, whether they're products are upstream technologies, learning, learning, what they're doing, understanding where, um, some of the gaps are there's. Um, yeah, we just couldn't do our jobs without engaging with developers, users in these kind of conferences. Yeah. A lot of the, um, love interest we've seen with coworkers is, is in the community, you know, um, like I'd been part of many, many successful open source projects, um, um, over red hat. And it's great when your customers, you know, like, uh, Vodafone, Greece or Carrefour in Spain are openly publicly talking about how good your technology is, what they're using it for. And that's really good. So it's just nothing, there's no alternative that, you know, whether it be virtual virtually or physically sitting down with, uh, with users of your technology, >>How about you, Miguel? What are you hoping to get out of, uh, out of the show this year? >>Um, we are working a lot with, on Kubernetes in red hat, on, uh, as part of the community, of course. And, um, I mean, there are so many new stuff that is coming around, Kubernetes that, uh, it's mostly about it, about all the capabilities that were arming, especially for example, several lists, you know, several lessons, there is an important topic with crackers, because for example, as you make the application stopped so much faster and react so much faster, you could have known of them running and just waiting for an event to happen, which saves a lot of resources and makes us super efficient. So this is one of the topics, for example, that we wanted to cover in this edition, you know, how we are implementing serverless with Kubernetes and OpenShift and many other things like pipelines. Like, I don't know, we just had quite a visit in the, uh, uh, video, uh, life of what is coming up. I see for the six. And I recommend people to take a look at it, to get everything that's new because there's a lot. Yeah, >>Yeah. You guys are technical people. You've been doing this for a long time. Why is Kubernetes so special? W Y Y you know, there's been containers in the past, right. And we've seen other kind of branded open source projects that got a lot of momentum, but Kubernetes just seems to be blowing everybody out of the out of its path. Why, what should people know about Kubernetes that aren't necessarily developers? >>Yeah, there's really nothing interesting about a single container or a single microservice, right? That's not, that's not the kind of environment that, um, real organizations live in. They live in organizations where they're going to have hundreds of services, um, who just containers and you need a technology to orchestrate and manage that in that complex environment. And Kubernete's has just quickly become the, the district per standard. Um, yeah, folks are red hat jumped on my very, very early, um, I mean, one of the advantages around her have is where we're embedded with developers and open source communities. We often have a pretty good, it gives us a pretty good crystal ball. So we're often quick to jump on the emerging technologies that are coming out of open source. And that's exactly what happened with Cubanetis. It was clear. It was, um, you're going to be sophisticated for our, you know, most, um, most sophisticated customers running at scale. Um, but, but also, you know, great for development environments as well. So it really a good fit for, uh, where we were headed and, you know, just very, very quickly became the fact that standard. And you, you just gotta go with the de facto standard. Right, right. >>Right. Well, the another thing that you mentioned rich in that other interview that I was watching is it came up the conversation in terms of managing open source projects. And at some point, you know, they kind of start, and then, you know, I think this one, if I go to corcus and look at the bottom of the page sponsored by red hat, but you talked about, you know, at some point, do you move it over to a foundation, um, you know, and kind of what are the things that kind of drive that process, that decision, um, and, you know, I would imagine that part of it has to do with popularity and scale, is that something, you know, potentially down the road, how do you think that you said you've been in lots of open source projects, when does it move from, you know, kind of single point of origin to more of a foundational support? >>Yeah. I mean, in fact the foundation's owner was necessary. Um, you know, when you have a, yeah. If you, if you have a, an open, very open project with, um, um, clear, clear rules for collaboration and kind of the encouragement or others to collaborate and be able to, you know, um, move the project and, you know, the foundation as low as necessarily what we've seen, I've been part of the no GS world where, you know, the, the community reached Belden to keep no GS moving forward. Um, we had to go from a, what we call a benevolent dictator for life, somebody who's well-intentioned, but, um, yeah, we're on stone, the technology, so a foundation, which is much more inclusive and, um, you know, greater collaboration and you can move even quicker. So, you know, um, I think what's required is, is open governance for open source projects and where that doesn't happen. You know, maybe a foundation is, is the right way forward. Right, right now with, with caucus, um, you know, the, the non red hat developers seem pretty happy with the way they can get, uh, get engaged and contribute. Um, but if we get to a point where the community is demanding a foundation and we'll absolutely consider it, that's the best project we'll do. >>So, so we're, we're coming to the end of our time. I want to give you each the last word, really with two questions, one again, you know, just kind of a summary of, of, uh, of CubeCon cloud, native con, you know, what should people be looking for, uh, find you, and, and, and I don't know if you guys are sponsoring any sessions, I'm sure there's a lot of great content. If you want to highlight one or two things. And then most importantly, as we turn the calendars, we come to the end of 2020, uh, thankfully, um, as you look ahead to 2021, you know, what are some of your priorities, uh, as, as we get ready to turn the turn, the calendar, and Miguel let's start with you. >>So, um, I mean, we have been working very hard this year on the migration, took it for applications to help her every user that is using Java to bring the two containers. You know, whether it is data IE or these crackers, but we're putting like a lot of effort in crackers. And now we are bringing in new rules. And, uh, by the, by December, we expect to have the new version of the migration looking for applications that is going to include the, all the bulls to help developers bring their, their code to the Java code, to, to carcass. And, uh, on this, this is the main goal for us right now. We are moving forward to the next year to include more, more capabilities in that project. Everything's up on site. You can go to the conveyor, uh, project and ticket on, uh, on the up capabilities for the assessment phase. So whenever any partner, any, any of our consultants are working on, on migration or anyone that would like to go and try it themselves on adopted, would like to do these migrations to the cloud native world, uh, will feel comfortable with, with this tool. So that is our main goal in, in my, in my team. >>All right. And how about you rich? >>Yeah, I think we're going to see this, um, um, kind of syllabus solidification kind of web of, um, microservices. Um, you know, if you like hate that, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to next generation microservice. There's going to be, as Miguel mentioned, is gonna be based around, um, uh, native, um, advancing, um, serverless functions. I think that's really the, the, the ideal architecture, the building March services, um, on, on Coobernetti's and caucus plays really, really well there. Um, I think there's, there's a, there's a kind of backlog of projects, um, within organizations that, um, you know, hopefully next year, everything really does start to crank up. And I think, um, yeah, I think a lot of the migration that Miguel has talked about is going to be, is going to rise in terms of importance. So app modernization, taking those existing applications, maybe taking aspects of those and, you know, doing some kind of decomposition in some microservices using caucus and a native, I think we'll see a lot of that. So I think we'll see a real drive around both the kind of Greenfield, um, applications, uh, you know, this next generation of microservices, as well as pulling those existing applications forward into these new environments, don't give an answers. So it's going to be excellent. >>Awesome. Well, thank you both for taking a few minutes with us and sharing the story of corcus, uh, and have a great show. Great to see you and a really good the conversation. All right. He's Miguel, he's rich. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cubes ongoing coverage of CubeCon cloud native con 2020 North America. Virtual. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Man: from around the globe, it's "theCUBE" with coverage of "Kubecon" and "CloudNativeCon Europe 2020", virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is "theCUBE's" coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual edition of course, it, this ecosystem has been bustling, a lot of activity in the five years that we've been covering it with "theCUBE" we've watched very much the maturation of what's going on. Remember, in the early days, it was open source projects, companies pulling all the pieces together. Now, there's a lot more things to choose from lots of projects, not just Kubernetes, but all the other pieces, and still lots of new innovations and new startups coming into the space. So happy to welcome to the program, have two first time guests from Spectro Cloud, first of all, we have the co founder and CEO Tenry Fu, and also Tina Notle who's the Vice President of product, Tina and Tenry, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Likewise. >> All right, so Tenry, as one of the co founders, I want to understand, you know, why Spectro Cloud? Why now, you know, many outsiders, would they have said for a while, you know, Kubernetes, it's just getting baked into all of the environment. They looked at all the platforms, whether you're talking, you know, Google and AWS or VMware, they all have their platforms, they all have their managed services offering. So help us understand, what your team does and how you differentiate from what's already existing. >> Absolutely yeah, so I actually used to work at VMware, I, and then, I saw clouds taking off right and then I left VMware, to start my first startup called CliQr Technologies, which focus on multicloud management. But at that time, really, multicloud management through a single pane of glass is obviously right, and then clicker later acquired by Cisco. So at Cisco, I kind of witness The Container and Kubernetes taking off, right? And it makes a lot of sense, right for the first time both the application workloads and infrastructure became truly portable across multiple environments, but also very interestingly at Cisco I observed there are many developer teams, right? That is adopting Kubernetes and everyone is doing a little bit different things, that because different teams, they have a different stack constructor requirements, like some for AI/ML, some, they need a different base OS, some they just don't want to have a different version, and a lot of existing solutions doesn't really provide this kind of flexibility to satisfy all the different needs, right? one size fit all, typically is a one size fit for nothing. So we asked ourselves, why can't we try to create a platform that will give people the flexibility, but not turning it into a DIY project, right, still have a full manageability, so that user don't need to worry about the upgrade, Day Two operations, governance so and so forth. >> Yeah to Tina, I know when I've looked at your product, it's discussed as layers, which my background's in networking. So I love seeing things visually and understanding the pieces as they lay out the stack. So maybe help us understand a little bit as to, you know, that the flexibility that you give and how it's not just the Paradox of Choice, just too many options out there and you know, developers left to create their own mess that they can't then support. (laughing) >> Yeah, so you know, as Tenry mentioned, offering folks flexibility without turning into a do it yourself, you know, hot mess is what we're what we're helping People do at Spectrol Cloud, the core of our solution, the core of the differentiation within our solution is around this concept of a cluster profile, and as you mentioned, cluster profile basically allows people to define in a layered fashion, what's part of their Kubernetes infrastructure stack? So at the bottom, you're talking, what's the base operating system? What's the version of Kubernetes, that's going to be part of clusters that uses profile? What's your networking and storage interface look like? And then on top of that, you have a number of optional layers. So again, you know, back to flexibility manageability, we give people options around what those other layers look like on top. They include everything from security, logging, monitoring, etc, just anything that you want to go ahead and kind of bake into a definition, a profile of what a cluster should look like in one of your deployed environments. >> All right, well, Want to make sure I understand when you talk about Kubernetes in there, can it be, you know, say VMware with Vsphere7, now has Kubernetes support. Red Hat open shift is an option, all of the cloud players have their, you know, AKS, EKS. And they're like, can I bake that Kubernetes in or are you taking a different approach? >> We're going with upstream vanilla Kubernetes today, that allows us to go ahead and provide what's newest within the ecosystem, and let people go ahead and have a really open, really open solution that's replying. >> Okay, so when I talk to, when you look out there, a lot of companies are saying how can I manage multiple clusters? So if you look at what Google, Microsoft and VMware, they're talking about, we can manage our clusters and we can also help you with those other clusters. How does that impact Tenry, your Solution, doesn't it need to be, it's just the upstream solution that I put into that cluster profile, or can I connect to, say a managed cloud solution? >> Yeah, so I think in terms the multi class management or the consistency is really the key, right. So through this class profile concept, not only it can be used as the initial template to deploy a cluster, but it can also use as a single source for choose, to drive the cluster Lifecycle Management income upgrade. So right now, as Tina mentioned, we primarily focus on upstream, so that we want to provide the maximum flexibility in terms of our end to end Kubernetes stack. But we do also have a plan, that down the road that we go into in Brownfield existing clusters. So that enterprise, existing investment to their Kubernete infrastructure can be under managed by us. >> Well there always reaches a time when the brand new technology gets called Brownfield. I think that's the first time I've heard something like, you know, EKS or the like, you know, referred to as Brownfield. Tina, you know, when I think back to my history with integrated solutions, obviously, if I have the various pieces, it should be easier for me to stay on the latest make upgrades, roll things forward or roll things back, but you know, what, give us if you could some of the, the key values of, you know, building these cluster profiles, what that enables for your customers. >> So the key around cluster profiles, we offer this policy based management, so you describe as an administrator, what it is that those clusters need to look like, right? And we've got, we adopt a declarative desired state, you know, management approach along what Kubernetes does itself, and so what you're able to get through adopting, utilize cluster profiles, is this guarantee that from deployment and then into day two as well, what you've described in this profile, winds up maintaining itself, it remains true of the clusters that have been deployed. So what it is that you require as far as the operating system, what is required as far as some configuration options, etc. So the profile itself winds up being ground source of truth and around what it is that you've got running at all these various locations, across clouds, across different clusters, etc. >> All right. Tenry, you mentioned that having things more standardized is going to help customers, absolutely, we saw that in data centers for a long time, and standardized, how do you help customers make sure that the configuration that they build are going to work, are going to be stable, if they make changes that they're not going to get things out of sync. Is there you know, interoperability matrix or some other ways that we're trying to make sure that customers, you know, stay on the rails, if you will. >> Absolutely right, So through our system, right, all the integration points, we carry the additional metadata, right to basically give the hint about compatibility, resource constraints, right, and also the upgradability, in terms of moving from one version to another. So this way, we can kind of give you some guidance, when they initially construct a class profile, what will work together nicely and then what will not, right. And then on top of that, when upgrading from one existing cluster to a new version of a class profile definition, then we can look at the environment, right to understand, right, if there's something that potentially incompatible will popping up right, so we call that pre pilot integration, check right and also post deployment, we also allow user to run additional conformance tests. So that make sure the cluster everything is actually is still acting as as it's supposed to be. >> Another way to explain that is that you know, the cluster profile concept has a lot of flexibility attached with to it, right? That's a lot of power, it can get you into trouble if you don't have the right safety nets and safety harnesses underneath you. So we have a multi layered approach to helping make sure that people are getting benefit out of that flexibility. >> Wonderful and I'm wondering did, when you've had more customers using this, is their shared information, and if there're community guidelines that help, you know, understand when it's going to be okay, hey, 1.19's out, we're looking at 1.20. You might want to do this or hey, if you're using this piece of networking, you might want to wait a little bit before you go to the next version. >> That's definitely the idea over time, folks that are engaging with us, are very interested in the fact that, because of the fact that we're SaaS management platform, SaaS space management platform today, that it offers them the opportunity to learn from their peers, if you will, right, and their peers experiences. On top of that, we also have the ability to watch just what's been going on in other deployments in the Kubernetes ecosystem and we can make sure that all that's available, as Tenry mentioned, you know, in the form of the metadata that's on top of those packs. >> All right, how about how do you price this solution? When I look out there, I talked about Kubernetes baked into all the platforms, oftentimes, it can be baked into ELA, It's part of, you know, my just general cloud spend from that platform. So how do you do the pricing and, you know, are you plugged into any of the cloud marketplaces yet? >> Yeah, so flexibility is really part of our DNA. So even for pricing, we want to provide the maximum flexibility to our customer. So unlike some traditional solution typically is priced based on number of pause, right, a year, or even number of nodes, right. So we actually price based on number of CPU cores of all workers node under management by hour. So what we call those, core hour under management, right, and then every thousand core hours at one unit, we call kilo core hours. So kind of similar to how electricity is consumed, right, so this way, based on these core hour consumption, we allow user to either pay as you go as amongst the on demand plan, or you can do an annual commitment. >> And we are in process on the marketplaces. >> Yeah. >> All right, how about, we talked about Kubernetes, I think service mesh are part of it. What in this Kube, kubecon cloud native con ecosystem, which projects are the most tied into what you're doing anything that specter cloud is particularly contributing to that you can share? >> Yeah, so our system is built on top of Kubernetes cluster API project. So we are one of the contributor to class API, we are actively adding additional functionality to enhance class API, especially by in some other VMware environment for some custom use case, such as static IP or some special placement behaviors, and also adding additional contribute on different cloud support. >> Yeah, and as far as things that we're watching, and clearly we're, we've seen a dramatic increase in the number of people on our customer front that are interested in actual deployment, of service mesh now. So that's something that you know, we're going to be more engaged in over time. And another one that we're hoping to see, check out more talks around Kubecon is AI ML, right? A lot of interest on the part of customers around AIML use cases. >> Yeah, absolutely edge and AI and ML. Definitely very hot topics to conversation this year at the, at the Europe show, expect that to continue. Tina, I'm wondering, do you have any customer examples, maybe even anonymized that could kind of just explain the key values that your customers are seeing using your solution? >> Yeah, sure, so we've got one of our earliest customers is a Canadian financial, who came to us because, they were looking to figure out how to manage consistently at scale, and they have the problem that Tenry described earlier, around, I've got different development teams, they have different needs, and you know, how do you satisfy all those guys without going crazy, right? They've got an AIML use case, that's a special snowflake they've got two separate teams in different groups that would like to be under an IT management umbrella. That's a convergence use case that they're looking at, so kind of a typical example of somebody that we think of is, you know, a really good set of people for us to be having conversations with. We've also been working with a telecom provider that it's in a similar, similar vein actually, there's an AIML, there are multiple teams of different infrastructure, and they want to be able to consistently manage it's a story that we're seeing over and over again, thankfully. >> Yeah, we also see right from I think, at individual group or team level, right. There are a lot of, kind of a product owner or data scientists that they really want to have a kind of an easy button to quickly be able to provision Kubernetes clusters that suit for their need, right. And a lot of these groups, their primary focus is really the application, right? It's not their interest to spend a lot of time and resource on Kubernete management, in terms of deploying update, or secure an operation. So through us, they can very easily spin up a Kubernetes cluster, whether it's for AIML or for developing experiment, they can very quickly do that But with the flexibility, because a lot of existing solution, they may limit the version of Kubernetes clusters, they may limit the what kind of integration they can do. >> Yeah, Tenry you, we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, potential integration down the road. I'm curious, just there's so many companies creating innovations out there, you know, say for example, one that I hear a lot of feedback on is AWS now has far gate support for their EKS offering. Is that Something down the line you should look at or do you have some guidance as to how customers should be thinking about that, and if they want that kind of functionality, how they would get that with a solution like yours? >> Yeah, actually, we really share the same vision as AWS, right. So we believe, ultimately is the infrastructure really should be transparent to application developers, right, and it should be boundary-less. So our goal is not only manage Kubernetes, across multiple environment, but eventually we will be able to link all these cluster together, to make them acting as a single infrastructure. So developers, they can still use their familiar Kubernetes interface to deploy and manage their application, but without worrying about the how infrastructure underneath is operated or managed, right. So this in a way will eventually become kind of a phallic model, but across multiple cluster and multiple clouds. >> Alright, Tina, if maybe if you could give us the final takeaway, people attending Kubecon, cloud native con, what's the one thing that if you know they have a problem, they should be coming to Spectro cloud to hear more about? >> Yeah, sure so what Spectrol cloud aims to do is help enterprises not have to trade off between flexibility and control of their infrastructure, and manageability of use that stuff's that's the main, the main thing that we would like people to remember. >> All right, well Tenry and Tina, thank you so much for sharing with our community a little bit about Specter Cloud great talking to you and look forward to hearing more in the future. >> Thanks so much. >> Thank you too. >> All right, and stay tuned more coverage from Kubecon Cloud Native Con 2020. I'm Stu MiniMan and thank you, for watching "theCUBE." (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2020, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of Cisco Live 2020 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman. My co-host for this segment is Dave Volante. John Furrier is also in the house. We're doing a little more than three days wall-to-wall coverage. One of the big themes we're talking about this week is in this complicated world, networking, containerization, applications going through transformation. Future work simplification is something that is very important and helping us to really tease through and understand some of the integration, some of the announcements where Cisco is helping to simplify the environment, happy to welcome back to the program one of our Cube alumni, Kaustubh Das who is a Vice President of Product Management at Cisco. KD, thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, I'm delighted to be here, it's great to be here. >> All right. So but up on the main stage, they walk through a number of the announcement. Listen Tony, I was talking about some of the pieces and two of the announcements from the main stage are under your purview. So why don't we start there, walk us through the news. >> Yeah, so there's two two major announcements. The first one's called Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer. And what it is, it's a way to have visibility into your data center, all the way from the applications and in fact, the user journeys within those applications, all the way down through the virtualization there, through the app servers, through the container platforms down into the servers, the networks, storage lands. So you have a map of the data center. You have a common data set that the application owner and the infrastructure owner can both look at and you finally have a common vocabulary so that it helps them to troubleshoot faster so on a fast reactor way, they talking the same language not pointing fingers at each other or do things proactively to prevent problems from happening when you see a server running hot, a virtual machine running hot, an application server running hot. You can diagnose it and have that conversation before it happens. >> My understanding is that Intersight and there's also some integrations with AppDynamics there, AppD which of course we know we talk to that team at the Amazon Cloud shows a lot. So that common vocabulary spans between my hybrid and multi cloud environments. Am I getting that right? >> Correct and there's two pieces even within that. So certainly that's integrations with AppD so from AppD we get information about the application performance. We get information about the business metrics associated with the application performance. We get information about the journeys that user take within the application and then we take that data then we stitch it together with infrastructure data to map how many applications are dependent on which application servers, how many VMs are those dependent on, what does those VMs run on? What hosts are they dependent on, what networks do they Traverse, what lands do they run on? And each one of these is an API call into that element in the infrastructure stack. Each API call gives us a little bit of data and then we piece together this data to create this map of the of the entire data center. There's a multi cloud aspect to it obviously and so we also make API calls into AWS and Azure and clouds out there and we get data about utilization of the various instance types. We get data about performance from the cloud as well. >> So two announcements. Insight Workload Optimizer and HyperFlex AppDynamics, is that right or they are separate? >> HyperFlex application platform. >> Okay. >> So if we look at the, let me just put these two in context. Every enterprise is doing two things. It's trying to run application that it already hosts and then it's writing some bespoke new applications. So the first announcement, the Cisco Intersight Workload Optimizer and the integration of the AppD, that helps us be more performant for applications we're running, to have troubleshoot faster, to have reduced cost in a multiply cloud environment. The second announcement Dave, the HyperFlex application platform, it's really targeted towards developers who are writing new applications on a container platform. And for those developers, IT needs to give them a simple appliance like easy to use container as a service platform. So what HX AP HyperFlex application platform is is a container as a service platform driven from the cloud so that the developer gets the same experience that they get when they go to an AWS and and request a pod. But they get it on-prem and it's fully 100% upstream Kubernetes compliant. It's curated by us so it's very simple appliance like feel for development environments on container. >> Okay. So Insight Workload Optimizer, it really attacks the problem of sort of the mystery of what goes on inside VMs and the application team, the infrastructure team, they're not talking to each other. You're bringing a common, like you said parlance together. >> Kaustubh: Correct. >> Really so they can solve problems and that that trickles down to cost optimization as well as performance. >> It does, aha. >> And I understand hyper HyperFlex app platform it's really bringing that cloud experience to on-prem for hybrid environments. >> For our new development. So if you're developing on containers, you're probably using Kubernetes but you're probably using this entire kind of ecosystem of open source tools. >> Yeah. >> And we make that simple. >> Okay. >> We make it simple for developers to use that and variety to provide that to developers. >> Okay. since underneath, there's HyperFlex. is there still virtualization involved in there and how does this tie in with the rest of the Kubernete solutions that we were talking about with your cloud partner? >> Great, great. Great question. So yes, there is HyperFlex underneath this. So to develop, you need a platform. The best platform we think is the elastic platform that is hyper-convergence. And with type of flex, we took storage networking and compute, packaged it together, made it super simple. We're doing the same thing with Kubernetes. So it's the same concept that how do you take complex things, package it together and make it almost appliance like. We said we're doing the same thing with Kubernetes. Now Stu, the point about virtualization is a good one. A lot of container deployments today are run in virtual machines. And they run in virtual machines for good reason, for isolation, for multi-tenancy, for all these kinds of ignition. However, the promise of containers was to sort of get rid of the tax that you pay when you deploy a virtualization environment. And what we're giving out right now is no tax, no virtualization tax virtualization environment. So we have a layer over transition in there. It's designed for this use case so it does give the isolation, it does give the multi-tenancy benefits but you don't need to need to pay additionally for it if you're deploying on containers-- >> Job wise it is some KB and base type solution >> Kaustubh: Correct. >> Underneath, it makes a lot of sense if you look at the large virtualization player out there. It's been talking about how do I enable the infrastructure that's all virtualized and everything and bring them along to that journey >> Correct. >> For that bridge if you will to the environment? Sure containerization sometimes I want to be able to spin it up super fast. It leaves, it dies, but if I'm putting something in my data center, probably the characteristics I'm looking at are a little bit different. >> Correct, correct. The other thing it does and you touched on it a little bit was we have a homogeneous environment with the major clouds out there. So one of the things developers want to do is they want to develop in one place and they want to deploy in another place so develop on Amazon and deploy on-prem or Azure. We've got an environment with very native integrations so that it's natively integrated into EKS and AKS. And we facilitate that develop anywhere, deploy anywhere motion for developers who are trying to build on this. >> So okay. What does the customer have to do to consume these solutions? >> So our customer right now for this one is IT operations. It maybe helps to bit back a little bit on why we did this. I had a lot of customers come to me and they said listen, I'm IT, I'm in the business of taking shrink-wrap software, taking enterprise-grade resilient infrastructure, putting that together. I'm not in the business of getting open source drops, every week, every day, every month, putting them together by making sure all the versions line up and doing that again and again and again. So the putting together an Ikea piece part of open source software has not been traditionally the IT operator's business. So our customer is that IT operator. What they need to do is they buy a, if they may have a HyperFlex system already, or they buy a HyperFlex effect system. They add on a license for the HyperFlex application platform. They have an Intersight license. This is delivered from the cloud so Intersight manages that deployment, manages the lifecycle, manages the upgrades and so forth. If they have a state that spreads across multiple sites, Intersight is cloud-based so it can actually reach all those sites and so they're in business. >> Okay, so very low prerequisite. You just got to have the product and you can add on to it. >> Yeah, I have the HyperFlex system, add on to the license, you're done. >> So I'm curious. How unique do you see this in the marketplace? I think the keynotes this morning is that there's no other company that can actually do this. I wonder if you can sort of add some color to that and just help our viewers understand the uniqueness of Cisco's offer. >> Sure. So I think it's unique on a number of different dimensions. The first dimension is HyperFlex itself. We've had an appliance mentality to this for a long time and we really co-designed the software and the hardware to build the most performance hyper-converged system out there. We took the same approach when we went down the path of Kubernetes and building this container platform. And so it's called design software and infrastructure together. The second thing is we said we're going to be 100% upstream Kubernetes compliant right, so if you look at the major offerings out there in this space, they're often several months actually behind where the open source is, where the upstream of the sources and developers don't want that. They want the latest and greatest, they want they want to be current, right. So we are far ahead of most of the other offerings out there in terms of how close they are to their upstream commodities. The final piece is Intersight. Intersight gives us immense ability to have scale where especially if you're developing on containers and micro services, you're talking tens of thousands, many tens of thousands of N nodes, maybe more. And being in the cloud, we have the scale and we have reached so a lot of our customers have distributed assets and branches and you know, hotel chains with hotels and so forth. Intersight allows us the ability to actually deploy across a distributed asset class with with the centralized kind of provisioning. >> You see a huge uptake right now and containers generally Kubernetes, specifically. It's sort of across the board but I wonder if you could comment on how much of that demand and activity is coming from sort of the traditional IT roles versus with other hoody developers? >> Yeah, that's that's a great question. So yes, there is a on a hype cycle it's at the top of the hype cycle. Everybody's in actual adoption. I think it's pretty good as well right. So that is every company I talk to is doing something in containers, every company. But usually, it starts at the developers. It starts with like you described with the folks in the hoodies and that's great. I mean they're experimenting, they're getting this thing. What hasn't happened is it hasn't gotten mainstream. And things can mainstream is when IT picks it up. It certifies hey this is resilient, this is enterprise-grade, I can stand behind it, I can manage the lifecycle of it. That's what we're enabling here. I'm giving IT a path to mainstream containers, to mainstream Kubernetes so that the adoption kind of takes it from that pipe cycle to mainstream adoption. >> Do you see K.D. new sort of data protection approaches or thinking as containers come into play? I mean they're ephemeral, you know microservices sometimes aren't so micro. Like you say, they're running often times inside a VM. So how are people thinking about protecting containers? >> Yeah, yeah, that's a big topic in itself. I mean one of the things that we found is even though they were supposed to be ephemeral, they require persistent storage so we've implemented within hyperflex a CSI plugin that provides that persistent storage layer to containers. Then once you do that, all of the data protection mechanism of HyperFlex come into play. So within the cluster, the resiliency, the triple replication, the backups, the partnerships we have with their other data protection pairs, all of those mechanisms become available instantly and those are enterprise-grade. Those are ones that IT knows and can stand behind. Those become available to containers right away >> Great. >> But it's great, great question. >> Awesome. >> Just want to go back to when you were talking about Intersight and the reach and the scale of the solution reminds me that Cisco has a strong legacy in global environment. What I'm curious about, we've talked a little bit about Edge computing in the past. >> Kaustubh: Yes. >> Where are you seeing Edge today? Where is that going? What should we be looking at in that space when it comes to Edge? >> Yeah, no, it's a big part of our customer demand. In fact, we haven't seen I think all flash was the other technology that took place so fast but Edge has been really phenomenal in its growth rate. Over the last year, we've seen I think probably up to 15% to 20% of my engagements are in this space on at least the hyper convert side. So we see that as a big growth area. More and more deployments are happening. They're being centrally managed, deployed at the edges and so the only solution that scales to something like that is something that's based on the cloud. But it's not just enough to be based in the cloud. You've got to maintain that entire lifecycle right? You've got to make sure you can do installs, upgrades, you know OS installs, health monitoring and so as we built that Intersight platform, we've added all those capabilities to it over time So we started with hey this is a SAS-based management platform and then we added telemetry and then we said if we can actually match signatures, now machines can manage machines. So a good amount of my support calls are now machines calling each other and then fixing themselves. So that's just path-breaking from an informant Edge environment. You don't have an IT person, add an Edge location. You want to drop, ship an appliance there, and you want to be able to see it remotely. So I think it's a completely new operating model. >> I know we got to go but I want to run your scenario by K.D.'s. Do share with me from one of my breaking analysis. Look Dave, you mentioned Flash, that's what triggered me. (laughing) So think of containers and Kubernetes, think of like Flash. Remember Flash used to be the separate thing which we used to think it was a separate market and now it's just everywhere, it's embedded in everything. >> Kaustubh: Yes. >> So the same thing is going to happen with Kubernetes. It's going to be embedded in solutions. This is exactly what it is. By 2023, we're probably not going to be talking about it as a separate thing, maybe that's sooner. It's really just going to be ubiquitous, yeah. >> No, I totally agree. I think the underpinnings that you need for that future, you need a common infrastructure platform and a common management platform. So you don't want to have a new Silo creator and this has been our philosophy even for hyperconvergence. We said hey, there's going to be converging infrastructure that will be hyper converted. But they need to be the same management system, they need to be the same fabric. And so if it's Silo is not going to work. Same thing for containers you know. It's got to be the same platform in this case, it's HyperFlex. Hyperflex runs virtualization, it runs containers with HXAP. You get all of those benefits that I've talked about. It's all management insights, it's a common management platform across both of those. At some point, these are all tools in somebody's tool kit and you pick the right one for the job. >> Kaustubh, it is wonderful to hear the company that has been dominant in one of the silos for so long of course helping to bring the silos together work across the domains. Congratulations on that good news, always great to have you. >> Yeah, always great to be here, thank you. >> Dave: Thank you. >> For Dave Folante, I'm Stu Miniman back from lunch where we hear more from Cisco live in Barcelona 2020. Thank you for watching theCUBE.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud date of con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm just two minute and my cohost is John trier. And welcome back to the program. A multi-time cube alumni. You're on Aviv, who is the CTO and cofounder of a Gwoza. We've had quite a lot of, you know, founders, CTOs, you know, their big brains at this show, your own. So you know, let, let, let's start, you know, there's, there's really a gathering, uh, there's a lot of effort building out, you know, a very complicated ecosystem. Give us first, kind of your overall impressions of the show in this ecosystem. Yeah, so we're very early on on Desecco system. We were one of the first in the first batch of CNCF members when there were a few dozens of those. Not like a thousand of those. Uh, so I've been, I've been to all those shows. >>Uh, we're part of the CNCF committees for different things. And any initiating, I think this has become much more mainstream. I told you before, it's sort of the new van world. You know, I lot a lot more, uh, all day infrastructure vendors along with middleware and application vendor are coming here. All right, so, so one of the things we like having you on the program you're on is you don't pull any punches. So we've seen certain waves of technology come with big promise and fall short, you know, big data was going to allow us to leverage everything and you know, large percentage of, uh, solutions, you know, had to stop or be pulled back. Um, give us, what's the cautionary tale that we should learn and make sure that we don't repeat, you know, so I've been a CTO for many years in different companies and, and what everyone used to say about it, I'm always right. >>I'm only one year off usually. I'm usually a little more optimistic. So, you know, we've been talking about Cloudera and Hadoop world sort of going down and Kubernetes and cloud services, essentially replacing them. We were talking about it four years ago and what do you see that's actually happening? You know, with the collapse of my par and whore, then we're going to Cloudera things are going down, customer now Denon guys, we need equivalent solution for Kubernetes. We're not going to maintain two clusters. So I think in general we've been, uh, picking on many of those friends. We've, we've invented serverless before it was even called serverless with, with nuclear and now we're expanding it further and now we see the new emerging trends really around machine learning and AI. That's sort of the big thing. I'm surprised, you know, that's our space where essentially you're doing a data science platform as a service fully automated around serverless constructs so people can, can develop things really, really quickly. >>And what I see that, you know, third of the people I talk to are, have some relations to machine learning and AI. Yeah. Maybe explain that for our audience a little bit. Because when, you know, Kubernetes first started very much an infrastructure discussion, but the last year or two, uh, very much application specific, we hear many people talking about those data use cases, AI and ML early days. But you know how, how does that fit into the overall? It's simple. You know there, if you're moving to the cloud are two workloads. There is lift and shift workloads and there are new workloads. Okay, lift and ship. Why? Why bother moving them to Kubernetes? Okay, so you end up with new workloads. Everyone is trying to be cloud native server, elastic services and all that. Everyone has to feed data and machine learning into those new applications. This is why you see those trends that talk about old data integration, various frameworks and all that in that space. >>So I don't think it's by coincidence. I think it's, that's because new applications incorporate the intelligence. That's why you hear a lot of the talk about those things. What I loved about the architecture, what you just said is like people don't want to run into another cluster. I don't want to run two versions of Kubernetes, you know, if I'm moving there you, because you, but you're still built on that, that kind of infrastructure framework and, and knowledge of, of how to do serverless and how to make more nodes and fewer nodes and persistent storage and all that sort of good stuff and uh, and, and run TensorFlow and run, you know, all these, all these big data apps. But you can, um, you can talk about that just as a, as a, the advantage to your customer cause you could, it seems like you could, you could run it on top of GKE. >>You could run it on prem. I could run my own Coobernetti's you could, you could just give me a, uh, so >> we, we say Kubernetes is not interesting. I didn't know. I don't want anyone to get offended. Okay. But Kubernetes is not the big deal. The big deal is organizations want to be competitive in this sort of digital world. They need to build new applications. Old ones are sort of in sort of a maintenance mode. And the big point is about delivering new application with elastic scaling because your, your customers may, may be a million people behind some sort of, uh, you know, uh, app. Okay. Um, so that's the key thing and Kubernetes is a way to deliver those microservices. But what we figured out, it's still very complicated for people. Okay. Especially in, in the data science work. Uh, he takes him a few weeks to deliver a model on a Jupiter notebook, whatever. >>And then productizing it is about the year. That's something we've seen between six months to a year to productize things that are relatively simple. Okay. And that's because people think about the container, the TensorFlow, the Kuda driver, whatever, how to scale it, how to make it perform, et cetera. So let's, we came up with is traditionally there's a notion of serverless, which is abstraction with very slow performance, very limited set of use cases. We sell services about elastic scaling paper, use, full automation around dev ops and all that. Okay. Why cannot apply to other use cases are really high concurrency, high-speed batch, no distributed training, distributed workload. Because we're coming, if you know my background, you know, been beeping in Mellanox and other high-performance companies. So where I have a, we have a high performance DNA so we don't know how to build things are extremely slow. >>It sort of irritates me. So the point is that how can we apply this notion of abstraction and scaling and all that to variety of workloads and this is essentially what it was. It is a combination of high speed data technology for like, you know, moving data around on between those function and extremely high speed set though functions that work on the different domains of data collection and ingestion, data analytics, you know, machine learning, training and CIN learning model serving. So a customer can come on on our platform and we have testimonials around that, that you know, things that they thought about building on Amazon or even on prem for months and months. They'd built in our platform in few weeks with fewer people because the focus is on building the application. The focus is not about joining your Kubernetes. Now we go to customers, some of them are large banks, et cetera. >>They say, Alrighty, likes Kubernetes, we have our own Kubernetes. So you know what, we don't butter. Initially we, we used to bring our own Kubernetes, but then you know, I don't mind, you know, we do struggle sometimes because our level of expertise in Coobernetti's is way more sophisticated than what they have to say. Okay, we've installed Kubernetes and we come with our software stack. No you didn't, you know, you didn't configure the security, they didn't configure ingress, et cetera. So sometimes it's easier for us to bring, but we don't want him to get into this sort of tension with it. Our focus is to accelerate development on the new application that are intelligent, you know, move applications from, if you think of the traditional data analytics and data science, it's about reporting and what people want to do. And some applications we've announced this week and application around real time cyber collection, it's being used in some different governments is that you can collect a lot of information, SMS, telephony, video, et cetera. >>And in real time you could detect terrorists. Okay. So those application requires high concurrency always on rolling upgrades, things that weren't there in the traditional BI, Oracle, you know, kind of reporting. So you have this wave of putting intelligence into more highly concurrent online application. It requires all the dev ops sort of aspects, but all the data analytics and machine learning aspects to to come to come along. Alright. So speaking of those workloads for, for machine learning, uh, cube flow is a project, uh, moving the, moving in that space along it. Give us the update there. Yeah. So, so there is sort of a rising star in the Kubernetes community around how to automate machine learning workflows. That's cube flow. Uh, I'm personally, I one of the committers and killed flow and what we've done, because it's very complicated cause Google developed the cube cube flow as one of the services on, on a GKE. >>Okay. And the tweaked everything. It works great in GK, even that it's relatively new technology and people want to move around it in a more generic. So one of the things in our platform is a managed cube flow that works natively with all the rest of the solutions. And other thing that we've done is we make it, we made it fully. So instead of queue flow approach is very con, you know, Kubernetes oriented containers, the ammos, all that. Uh, in our flavor of Coupa we can just create function and you just like chain functions and you click and it runs. Just, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, how does serverless, as you defined it, fit in with, uh, Coobernetti's? Is that working together just functions on top or I'm just trying to make here, >> you'll, you'll hear different things. I think when most people say serverless, they mean sort of front end application things that are served low concurrency, a Terra, you know, uh, when we mean serverless, it's, we have eight different engines that each one is very good in, in different, uh, domain like distributed deep learning, you know, distributed machine learning, et cetera. >>And we know how to fit the thing into any workloads. So for me, uh, we deliver the elastic scaling, the paper use and the ease of use of sort of no dev ops across all the eight workloads that we're addressing. For most people it's like a single Dreek phony. And I think really that the future is, is moving to that. And if you think about serverless, there's another aspect here which is very important for machine learning and Israel's ability. I'm not going to develop any algorithm in the world. Okay. There are a bunch of companies or users or developers that can develop an algorithm and I can just consume it. So the future in data science but not just data science is essentially to have like marketplaces of algorithms premade or analytic tools or maybe even vendors licensing their technology through sort of prepackaged solution. >>So we're a great believer of forget about the infrastructure, focus on the business components and Daisy chain them in to a pipeline like UFO pipeline and run them. And that will allow you most reusability that, you know, lowest amount of cost, best performance, et cetera. That's great. I just want to double click on the serverless idea one more time, but, so you're, you're developing, it's an architectural pattern, uh, and you're developing these concepts yourself. You're not actually, sometimes the concept gets confused with the implementations of other people's serverless frameworks or things like that. Is that, is that correct? I think there are confusion. I'm getting asked a lot of times. How do you compare your technology compared to let's say a? You've heard the term gay native is just a technology or open FAS or, yeah. Hold on. Pfizer's a CGIs or Alito. An open community is very nice for hobbies, but if you're an enterprise and it's security, Eldep integration, authentication for anything, you need DUIs, you need CLI, you need all of those things. >>So Amazon provides that with Lambda. Can you compare Lambda to K native? No. Okay. Native is, I need to go from get and build and all that. Serverless is about taking a function and clicking and deploying. It's not about building. And the problem is that this conference is about people, it people in crowd for people who like to build. So they, they don't like to get something that work. They want to get the build the Lego building blocks so they can play. So in our view, serverless is not open FAS or K native. Okay. It's something that you click and it works and have all the enterprise set of features. We've extended it to different levels of magnitude of performance. I'll give you an anecdote. I did a comparison for our customer asking me the same question, not about Canadian, but this time Lambda. How do you guys compare with London? >>Know Nokia is extremely high performance. You know we are doing up to 400,000 events on a single process and the customer said, you know what, I have a use case. I need like 5,000 events per second. How do you guys compare a total across all my functions? How do you compare against Lambda? We went into, you know the price calculator, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's $50,000 okay. $50,000 we do about, let's say even in simple function, 60,000 per process, $500 VM on Amazon, $500 VM on Amazon with our technology stick, 2000 transactions per second, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's 50,000. Okay. 100 times more expensive. So it depends on the design point. We designed our solution to be extremely efficient, high concurrency. If you just need something to do a web hook, use Lambda, you know, if you are trying to build a high concurrency application efficient, you know, an enterprise application on it, on a serverless architecture construct come to us. >>Yeah. So, so just a, I'll pause at this for you because a, it reminds me what you were talking about about the builders here in the early days of VMware to get it to work the way I wanted to. People need to participate and build it and there's the Ikea effect. If I actually helped build it a little bit, I like it more to get to the vast majority, uh, to uh, adopt those things. It needs to become simplified and I can't have, you know, all the applications move over to this environment if I have to constantly tweak that. Everything. So that's the trend we've been really seeing this year is some of that simplification needs to get there. There's focus on, you know, the operators, the day two operations, the applications so that anybody can get there without having to build themselves. So we know there's still work to be done. >>Um, but if we've crossed the chasm and we want the majority to now adopt this, it can't be that I have to customize it. It needs to be more turnkey. Yeah. And I think it's a friendly and attitude between what you'll see in Amazon reinvent in couple of weeks. And then what you see here, because there is those, the focus of we're building application a what kind of tools and the Jess is gonna just launch today on the, on the floor. Okay. So we can just consume it and build our new application. They're not thinking, how did Andy just, he built his tools. Okay. And I think that's the opposite here is like how can you know Ali's is still working inside underneath dude who cares about his team. You know, you care about having connectivity between two points and and all that. How do you implement it that, you know, let someone else take care of it and then you can apply your few people that you have on solving your business problem, not on infrastructure. >>You know, I just met a guy, came to our booth, we've seen our demo. Pretty impressive how we rise people function and need scales and does everything automatically said we want to build something like you're doing, you know, not really like only 10% of what you just showed me. And we have about six people and for three months where it just like scratching our head. I said, okay, you can use our platform, pay us some software license and now you'll get, you know, 10 times more functionality and your six people can do something more useful. Says right, let's do a POC. So, so that's our intention and I think people are starting to get it because Kubernetes is not easy. Again, people tell me we installed Kubernete is now installed your stack and then they haven't installed like 20% of all the things that you need to stop so well your own have Eve always pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks for the all the updates and I know we'll catch up with you again soon. Sure. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more coverage here from CubeCon cloud date of con in San Diego. Thanks for watching the cube.

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. It's CubeCon cloud native con 2019. You're watching the cube. I'm streaming in my cohost for three days of live coverage is John Troyer and happened at welcome fresh off the keynote stage to my right is as hers as har who's the chief architect for telco at red hat and the man that was behind the scenes for a lot of it, hunting Garcia, telco solutions manager at red hat. A gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us and a very interesting keynote. So you know 5g uh, you know, my background's networking, we all watch it. Um, uh, let's say my telco provider already says that I have something related to five G on my phone that we grumble a little bit about, but we're not going to talk about that where we are going to talk about his keynote. Uh, we had a China mobile up on stage. Uh, maybe a, I love a little bit behind the scenes as you were saying. Uh, you know, the cloud native enabled not just uh, you know, the keynote and what it's living, but it gets a little bit of what >>well, sure. Um, look, when we took on this particular project to build a cloud native environment, uh, for five genes, we spent a lot of time planning and in fact this is a guy who actually did, you know, most of that work, um, to do a lot of planning in terms of picking different components and getting that together. Um, one of the things that cloud native environment allows us to do is bring things up quickly. The resilience part of it and the scale bar, right? Those are the two important components and attributes of cloud native. In fact, what happened last night was obviously one of the circuit breakers trapped and we actually lost power to that particular entire part that is onstage. I mean, nobody knows about this. I didn't talk about it as part of the keynote, but guess what? Through because it was cloud native because it was built in an automated fashion. People were able to work. Yes, they spent about three hours or so to actually get that back up. But we got it back up and running and we showed it live today. But what, I'm not trying to stress on how it failed a white fail. I'm trying to stress on how quickly things came back up and more important. The only cloud native way of doing things could have done that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. All right. >>as, as the man behind the scenes there. Uh, it's great when we have, you know, here's actually the largest telco provider in the world. Uh, you know, showing what it, it's happened. So the title Kubernetes everywhere that telco edge gets a little bit of a hind, the scenes as to kind of the, the, the mission of building the solution and how you got it, you know, your, your, your customers, your partners, uh, engaged and excited to participate in. >> This is what's that very thirsting enterprise through realize. Actually, we took four months around, uh, 15 partners. And, uh, I would say partners >>because in that case, I'm taking, uh, uh, bell Canada and China mobile is a partners. They are part of the project. They were giving us a requirement, helping us all the way to it and together other, uh, more, uh, commercial partners. And of course, uh, as whatsover Allianz, like the team in the and the open interface, Allianz is, we're working with us is, was about 8,200 people working behind the scenes to get this work, uh, to have a lab, uh, directly, completely set up with a full, uh, Fuji containerized MoMA and network in France, uh, have the same in Montreal. Fuji and fogey called directly Montiel as well, uh, in one of our partners, uh, Calum labs and then bringing here the fudgey pop, uh, and have everything connected to the public cloud. So we have everything in there. So all the technology, all the mobile technology was there. >>We have enterprise technology that we're using to connect all the, all the labs and the, and the pop here with the public cloud to. Uh, um, technology and we have of course deployed as, as a, as our, uh, was mentioning. We deployed Kubernete is on the public cloud and we have as well Kubernete is open, rehabbed, open stack, uh, sorry. They had OpenShift container platform running on the, on all the premise in the lab in France and Davi, Marcia and they pop here. Uh, as I say, it was kind of an interesting enterprise. We have some hiccups last night, but uh, we were able to put that out the world telco, >>very specialized, very high service level agreements. I always want by phone to work and so a little bit, uh, uses different terminology than the rest of it sometimes. Right. And MP and VNF and VCO. But so maybe let's real to tell people a little bit like what are we actually talking about here? I mean, people also may not be following edge and, and teleco and what's actually sitting in their home town or, or it used to be embedded chips and none, it was a like Linux, but we're actually talking about installing Kubernetes clusters in a lot of different, really interesting typologies. That's absolutely true actually with the way how, and described it as perfect in the sense that we actually had Kubernetes clusters sitting in a data center environment in France, in Montreal and a remote pop that's sitting here on stage. So it was not just independent clusters but also stretch clusters where we actually had some worker nodes here that will attach back to the Montreal cluster. >>So the flexibility that it gave us was just awesome. We can't achieve that. Uh, you know, in general. But you brought up an interesting topic around, uh, you know, Getty or, uh, or, or the Teleco's operating environment, which is different and cloud native principles has, are a little bit different where they weren't very high availability, they weren't very high reliability with good amount of redundancy. Well, cloud native and actually those attributes to you. But the operational model is very different. You have to almost use codas throwaway hardware as throwaway and do a horizontal scale model to be able to build that. Whereas in the older environment, hardware was a premium switches and routers with a premium and you couldn't have a failure. So you needed all of those, you know, compliance of high availability and upgradability and so on. Here I'm upgrading processes in Linux, I'm upgrading applications. I can go deploy anytime, tear them down. Anytime I'm monitoring the infrastructure, using metrics, using telemetry. That wasn't the case before. So a different operating environment, but it provides actually better residency models than what telcos are actually yesterday. Yeah. >>Um, it's a complicated ecosystem to put all these pieces together. Uh, it gives, gives a little insight as to, uh, you know, red hats, leadership and uh, the, the, the partners that help you put it in. >>I will let him answer that. >>Um, is another, our first rodeo. We have been working on the vitro central office project with the, with the leaner foundation, uh, networking and Hopi NFV community for three last years. Uh, let's say, and the interesting part of this one is that even though we typically get with working with what the technology that they are using now, uh, we decided it's time to go with the technologies that we'll be using from now on. Um, but of course, uh, there is a set of partners that we need. We need to build the infrastructure from scratch. So for example, we have a Lenovo that was bringing all the, all the servers, uh, for the, for the set up in, uh, and here in San Diego, which actually the San Diego pub was built originally in Raleigh, Illinois, facilities and cheap all over the country to here for the show. Uh, and uh, then we have the fabric part. >>So the networking part, that's his cologne. Uh, this was working and bringing us the software defined fabric, uh, to connect all the different future. And then, then we start building this over layers on top. So we have, they had OpenShift container platform for the to completely deploy over metal servers. And then we start adding all the rest of the components, like the four G core fundamental Tran, like dividing for GFG radio from Altron, uh, together with Intel come Scott. That's his building. He started building the mobile part of it in Montreal, a San Diego. And then we add on top of that. Then we start adding the IMS core in the public cloud and then we connect everything through the by tuning. >>So a couple of things that I'd like to highlight in terms of coordinating partners, getting to know when they're ready, figuring out an onboarding process that gives them a sandbox to play with their configurations first before you connect them back into the main environment. Partitioning that working simultaneously with Malden, we had a Slack board that was full of messages every day. We had a nonstop, you know, every morning we had a scam call, right then it's like a scrum meeting every morning, just a daily stand up from eight 30 to nine 30. And we continue that all over the day. >>So as her, one of the things I really like to China mobile, uh, when they talked about in the keynote, first of all they said, you know, the problem is, you know, 20 by 2026, you know, it's, it's rainbows and unicorns and you know, 5g, uh, you know, will help enable so much around the planet. Seriously. Um, but you know, today she, she talked about major challenge in the rollout and infrastructure and service and capability. So, you know, help us understand a little bit the hype from reality of where we are with five G what we could expect. >>Absolutely. We are going through the hype phase right now, right? We are absolutely all the operators want FFG service to be delivered for sure. The reason why they want it to be delivered as they don't want to be left behind. Now there are some operators when we in more opportunistic and looking at 5g as a way to insert themselves into different conversations, IOT conversation, um, smart city conversation, right? Um, edge compute conversation. So they're being very strategic about how the big, the set of technologies, how they go deploy in that particular infrastructure and strategically offer capabilities and build partnerships. Nobody's going to rip out their existing three G four G network and replace that with 5g by 2026. It's not gonna happen, but what will happen by 2026 is an incremental phase of services that will be continued to offer. As an example, I'll give you, um, cable providers are looking at 5g as a way to get into homes because they can deploy in millimeter wave band a radio closer to the house and get a very high speed multi-gigabit high speed connection into the home without having to worry about what's your copper look like? >>Do I have fiber to the home? Do I have fiber to the business and so on. And so. So that's actually an interesting, >>okay, so you're saying solving the last mile issue in a very targeted use. >>Absolutely. So that's one. The other area might be running a partnership with BMW Toyota in, you know, some of these car companies to provide telemetry back from cars into their own, you know, operating environment so that they know what's going on, what's being used, how is it being used, how can we, how can we do provide diagnosis before the car actually begins to fail? Uh, big, you know, private environments like oil and gas mining, they are going to deploy public safety and security where all of these, you know, policemen on and safety personnel are required to now use body cams. Now you have video feeds coming from hundreds of people. There are deployment and incidents. Now you can take that information you need high speed broadband, you need the ability to analyze data and do analytics and provide feedback immediately so that they can actually act. So do three, this specific targeted use case, even a country like India where they're talking about using 5g for very specific use cases, not replacing your phone calling. >>I love that point. And it kind of ties back into some of the other things you were saying about the a agility and the operational model. And I relate it back to it. You know, my, again, my perception of some telco maybe 20 years old and that they had a tendency to do very monolithic projects. And you know, when you're out, when you're rolling out a infrastructure across the country, there's a certain, uh, monolithic nature to it. But you're talking about rolling out one, rolling out individual projects rolling out. That's also the advice we give to it. Try it with one thing, you know, try open shift with that one application and then also though, but it takes uh, the upskilling and the cultural model. So true with your telco petitioners who are, we're on Slack, they're with you and I, you know, I don't, I don't know if there's any relation, any other kinds of things to pull out about the mirror of, of the it transformation with telco transformation and colon Turner. That's actually a good point that you bring up, >>right? Look, the costs of building, if I have infrastructure from ground up is extremely high. If they want to completely revamp that. You're talking about replacing every single radio, you're talking about adding capacity more adding, you know, backhaul capacity and so on. So that isn't going to happen overnight. It's going to happen. It may take even more 10 years. Right. I mean in the most interesting thing, that stat stack that I saw was even LTE is going to grow. LTE subscriber count is going to grow for the next two years before it flatmates. So we're not going to LTE four G that's been around for a decade almost. Right. And it's going to still grow for the next two years, then it's going to flatten and then you'll start to see more 5g subscribers. Now back to the point that you were bringing up in terms of operational model change and in terms of how things will be I D principles applying it principles to telco. >>Um, there are still some challenges that we need to solve in Coobernetti's environment in particular, uh, to address the teleco side of the house. And in fact through this particular proof of concept, that was one of the things we were really attempting to highlight and shine a light on. Um, but in terms of operational models, what use applicable and it will now be totally applicable on the telco network, the CIC pipeline. There's delivery of applications and software that testing and integration, the, you know, um, operational models. Absolutely. Those, in fact, I actually have a number of service providers and telcos that I talked to who are actually thinking about a common platform for it end telco network. And they are now saying, okay, red hat, can you help us in terms of designing this type of a system. So I think what could speak to you a little bit about, uh, in this context is how the same infrastructure can be used for any kind of application. So you want to talk about how the community's platform can be used to deploy CNS and then to deploy applications and how you've shown that. Yeah. Well this is what, >>what we have been doing, right. So we have, uh, the coordinators platform does, is actually deploy and the services we have, all these partners are bringing their Cloudnative uh, function, uh, applications on top of that, that what we are calling the CNF the quantities and network functions. And basically what we were doing as well during the whole process is that we have, those partners are still developing, still finishing the software. So we were building and deploying at the same time and testing on the same time. So during the last four months, and even I can tell you even just to deny >>even last night, so the full CACD pipeline that we deploy in ID side, here it is in operation on the network side. >>Well yeah. So, so I, I want to give you the final word cause you know, John was talking about it cycles, you know, if you think about enterprises, how long they used to take to deploy things, uh, and what cloud data is doing for them. Uh, it sounds like we're going through a similar trends. >>Absolutely big in a big way. Um, telcos are actually deploying a private cloud environment and they're also leveraging public cloud in mind. In fact, sometimes they using public cloud as sandbox for their development to be completed until they get deployed and private. Claremont, they still need the private time enrollment for their own purposes, like security, data sovereignty and uh, you know, their own operational needs. So, but they want to make it as transparent as possible. And in fact, that was one of the things we want to also attempted to show, which is a public cloud today, a private cloud and bare metal, a private cloud on OpenStack. And it was like, and you know, it came together, it worked, but it is real. That's more important. And, uh, for enterprise and for telcos to be literally going down the same path with respect to their applications, their services and their operational models. I think this is really a dream come true. >>Well, congratulations on the demo. Uh, but even more importantly, congratulations on the progress. Great to see, uh, you know, the global impact that's going to have in the telecommunications market. Definitely look forward to hearing more than. >>Thank you very much. Thank you. The opportunity to >>actually be here. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman back with lots more here from CubeCon Claude, date of con 2019 in San Diego, California. Thanks for watching the queue.