(energetic music plays) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, we're so glad you're here with us. theCUBE is covering Cloud Native Security Con 23. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is our second day of coverage of the event. We've had some great conversations with a lot of intellectual, exciting folks, as you know cuz you've been watching. John and I are very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE Taylor Dolezal joins us the head of ecosystem at CNCF. Taylor, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Taylor: Hey everybody, great to see you again. >> Lisa: So you are on the ground in Seattle. We're jealous. We've got fomo as John would say. Talk to us about, this is a inaugural event. We were watching Priyanka keynote yesterday. Seemed like a lot of folks there, 72 sessions a lot of content, a lot of discussions. What's the buzz, what's the reception of this inaugural event from your perspective? >> Taylor: So it's been really fantastic. I think the number one thing that has come out of this conference so far is that it's a wonderful chance to come together and for people to see one another. It's, it's been a long time that we've kind of had that opportunity to be able to interact with folks or you know, it's just a couple months since last Cube Con. But this is truly a different vibe and it's nice to have that focus on security. We're seeing a lot of folks within different organizations work through different problems and then finally have a vendor neutral space in which to talk about all of those contexts and really raise everybody up with all this new knowledge and new talking points, topics, and different facets of knowledge. >> John: Taylor, we were joking on our yesterday's summary of the keynotes, Dave Vellante and I, and the guests, Lisa and I, about the CNCF having an event operating system, you know, very decoupled highly cohesive events, strung together beautifully through the Linux Foundation, you know, kind of tongue in cheek but it was kind of fun to play on words because it's a very technical community. But the business model of, of hackers is booming. The reality of businesses booming and Cloud Native is the preferred developer environment for the future application. So the emphasis, it's very clear that this is a good move to do and targeting the community around security's a solid move. Amazon's done it with reinforce and reinvent. We see that Nice segmentation. What's the goal? Because this is really where it connects to Cube Con and Cloud Native Con as well because this shift left there too. But here it's very much about hardcore Cloud Native security. What's your positioning on this? Am I getting it right or is there is that how you guys see it? >> Taylor: Yeah, so, so that's what we've see that's what we were talking about as well as we were thinking on breaking this event out. So originally this event was a co-located event during the Cube Con windows in both Europe and North America. And then it just was so consistently popular clearly a topic that people wanted to talk, which is good that people want to talk of security. And so when we saw this massive continued kind of engagement, we wanted to break this off into its own conference. When we were going through that process internally, like you had mentioned the events team is just phenomenal to work with and they, I love how easy that they make it for us to be able to do these kinds of events too though we wanted to talk through how we differentiate this event from others and really what's changed for us and kind of how we see this space is that we didn't really see any developer-centric open source kinds of conferences. Ones that were really favoring of the developer and focus on APIs and ways in which to implement these things across all of your workloads within your organization. So that's truly what we're looking to go for here during these, all of these sessions. And that's how it's been playing out so far which has been really great to see. >> John: Taylor, I want to ask you on the ecosystem obviously the built-in ecosystem at CNCF.IO with Cube Cons Cloud Cons there, this is a new ecosystem opportunity to add more people that are security focused. Is their new entrance coming into the fold and what's been the reaction? >> Taylor: So short answer is yes we've seen a huge uptick across our vendor members and those are people that are creating Cloud offerings and selling those and working with others to implement them as well as our end users. So people consuming Cloud Native projects and using them to power core parts of their business. We have gotten a lot of data from groups like IBM and security, IBM security and put 'em on institute. They gave us a cost of data breach report that Priyanka mentioned and talked about 43% of those organizations haven't started or in the early stages of updating security practices of their cloud environments and then here on the ground, you know, talking through some best practices and really sharing those out as well. So it's, I've gotten to hear pieces and parts of different conversations and and I'm certain we'll hear more about those soon but it's just really been great to, to hear everybody with that main focus of, hey, there's more that we can do within the security space and you know, let's let's help one another out on that front just because it is such a vast landscape especially in the security space. >> Lisa: It's a huge landscape. And to your point earlier, Taylor it's everyone has the feeling that it's just so great to be back together again getting folks out of the silos that they've been operating in for such a long time. But I'd love to get some of your, whatever you can share in terms of some of the Cloud Native security projects that you've heard about over the last day or so. Anything exciting that you think is really demonstrating the value already and this inaugural event? >> Taylor: Yes, so I I've been really excited to hear a lot of, personally I've really liked the talks around EBPF. There are a whole bunch of projects utilizing that as far as runtime security goes and actually getting visibility into your workloads and being able to see things that you do expect and things that you don't expect and how to remediate those. And then I keep hearing a lot of talks about open policy agents and projects like Caverno around you know, how do we actually automate different policies or within regulated industries, how do we actually start to solve those problems? So I've heard even more around CNCF projects and other contexts that have come up but truly most of them have been around the telemetry space EBPF and, and quite a few others. So really great to, to see all those projects choosing something to bind to and making it that much more accessible for folks to implement or build on top of as well. >> John: I love the reference you guys had just the ChatGPT that was mentioned in the keynote yesterday and also the reference to Dan Kaminsky who was mentioned on the reference to DNS and Bind, lot of root level security going on. It seems like this is like a Tiger team event where all the top alpha security gurus come together, Priyanka said, experts bottoms up, developer first practitioners, that's the vibe. Is that kind of how you guys want it to be more practitioners hardcore? >> Taylor: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that when it comes to security, we really want to help. It's definitely a grassroots movement. It's great to have the people that have such a deep understanding of certain security, just bits of knowledge really when it comes to EBPF. You know, we have high surveillance here that we're talking things through. Falco is here with Sysdig and so it it's great to have all of these people here, though I have seen a good spread of folks that are, you know, most people have started their security journey but they're not where they want to be. And so people that are starting at a 2 0 1, 3 0 1, 4 0 1 level of understanding definitely seeing a good spread of knowledge on that front. But it's really, it's been great to have folks from all varying experiences, but then to have the expertise of the folks that are writing these specifications and pushing the boundaries of what's possible with security to to ensure that we're all okay and updated on that front too, I think was most notable yesterday. Like you had said >> Lisa: Sorry Taylor, when we think of security, again this is an issue that, that organizations in every industry face, nobody is immune to this. We can talk about the value in it for the hackers in terms of ransomware alone for example. But you mentioned a stat that there's a good amount of organizations that are really either early in their security journeys or haven't started yet which kind of sounds a bit scary given the landscape and how much has changed in the last couple of years. But it sounds like on the good news front it isn't too late for organizations. Talk a little bit about some of the recommendations and best practices for those organizations who are behind the curve knowing that the next attack is going to happen. >> Taylor: Absolutely. So fantastic question. I think that when it comes to understanding the fact that people need to implement security and abide by best practices, it's like I I'm sure that many of us can agree on that front, you know, hopefully all of us. But when it comes to actually implementing that, that's I agree with you completely. That's where it's really difficult to find where where do I start, where do I actually look at? And there are a couple of answers on that front. So within the CNTF ecosystem we have a technical action group security, so tag security and they have a whole bunch of working groups that cover different facets of the Cloud Native experience. So if you, for example, are concerned about runtime security or application delivery concerns within there, those are some really good places to find people knowledgeable about, that even when the conference isn't going on to get a sense of what's going on. And then TAG security has also published recently version two of their security report which is free accessible online. They can actually look through that, see what some of the recent topics are and points of focus and of interest are within our community. There are also other organizations like Open SSF which is taking a deeper dive into security. You know, initially kind of having a little bit more of an academic focus on that space and then now getting further into things around software bill materials or SBOMs supply chain security and other topics as well. >> John: Well we love you guys doing this. We think it's very big deal. We think it's important. We're starting to see events post COVID take a certain formation, you know joking aside about the event operating systems smaller events are happening, but they're tied together. And so this is key. And of course the critical need is our businesses are under siege with threats, ransomware, security challenges, that's IT moves to Cloud Native, not everyone's moved over yet. So that's in progress. So there's a huge business imperative and the hackers have a business model. So this isn't like pie in the sky, this is urgent. So, that being said, how do you see this developing from who should attend the next one or who are you looking for to be involved to get input from you guys are open arms and very diverse and great great culture there, but who are you looking for? What's the makeup persona that you hope to attract and nurture and grow? >> Taylor: Absolutely. I, think that when it comes to trying the folks that we're looking for the correct answer is it varies you know, from, you know, you're asking Priyanka or our executive director or Chris Aniszczyk our CTO, I work mostly with the end users, so for me personally I really want to see folks that are operating within our ecosystem and actually pulling these down, these projects down and using them and sharing those stories. Because there are people creating these projects and contributing to them might not always have an idea of how they're used or how they can be exploited too. A lot of these groups that I work with like Mercedes or Intuit for example, they're out there in the world using these, these projects and getting a sense for, you know, what can come up. And by sharing that knowledge I think that's what's most important across the board. So really looking for those stories to be told and novel ways in which people are trying to exploit security and attacking the supply chain, or building applications, or just things we haven't thought about. So truly that that developer archetype is really helpful to have the consumers, the end users, the folks that are actually using these. And then, yeah, and I'm truly anywhere knowledgeable about security or that wants to learn more >> John: Super important, we're here to help you scale those stories up whatever you need, send them our way. We're looking forward to getting those. This is a super important movement getting the end users who are on the front lines bringing it back into the open, building, more software, making it secure and verified, all super important. We really appreciate the mission you guys are on and again we're here to help. So send those stories our way. >> Taylor: Cool, cool. We couldn't do it without you. Yeah, just everyone contributing, everyone sharing the news. This is it's people, people is the is the true operating system of our ecosystem. So really great to, really great to share. >> Lisa: That's such a great point Taylor. It is all about people. You talked about this event having a different vibe. I wanted to learn a little bit more about that as we, as we wrap up because there's so much cultural change that's required for organizations to evolve their security practices. And so people of course are at the center of culture. Talk a little bit about why that vibe is different and do you think that yeah, it's finally time. Everyone's getting on the same page here we're understanding, we're learning from each other. >> Taylor: Yes. So, so to kind of answer that, I think it's really a focus on, there's this term shift left and shift right. And talking about where do we actually put security in the mix as it comes to people adopting this and and figuring out where things go. And if you keep shifting at left, that meaning that the developers should care more deeply about this and a deeper understanding of all of these, you know, even if it's, even if they don't understand how to put it together, maybe understand a little bit about it or how these topics and, and facets of knowledge work. But you know, like with anything, if you shift everything off to one side or the other that's also not going to be efficient. You know, you want a steady stream of knowledge flowing throughout your whole organization. So I think that that's been something that has been a really interesting topic and, and hearing people kind of navigate and try to get through, especially groups that have had, you know, deployed an app and it's going to be around for 40 years as well. So I think that those are some really interesting and unique areas of focus that I've come up on the floor and then in a couple of the sessions here >> Lisa: There's got to be that, that balance there. Last question as we wrap the last 30 seconds or so what are you excited about given the success and the momentum of day one? What excites you about what's ahead for us on day two? >> Taylor: So on day two, I'm really, it's, there's just so many sessions. I think that it was very difficult for me to, you know pick which one I was actually going to go see. There are a lot of favorites that I had kind of doubled up at each of the time so I'm honestly going to be in a lot of the sessions today. So really excited about that. Supply chain security is definitely one that's close to my heart as well but I'm really curious to see what new topics, concepts or novel ideas people have to kind of exploit things. Like one for example is a package is out there it's called Browser Test but somebody came up with one called Bowser Test. Just a very simple misname and then when you go and run that it does a fake kind of like, hey you've been exploited and just even these incorrect name attacks. That's something that is really close and dear to me as well. Kind of hearing about all these wild things people wouldn't think about in terms of exploitation. So really, really excited to hear more stories on that front and better protect myself both at home and within the Cloud Community as I stand these things up. >> Lisa: Absolutely you need to clone yourself so that you can, there's so many different sessions. There needs to be multiple versions of Taylor that you can attend and then you can all get together and talk about and learn. But that's actually a really good problem to have as we mentioned when we started 72 sessions yesterday and today. Lots of great content. Taylor, we thank you for your participation. We thank you for bringing the vibe and the buzz of the event to us and we look forward as well to hearing and seeing what day two brings us today. Thank you so much for your time Taylor. >> Taylor: Thank you for having me. >> John: All right >> Lisa: Right, for our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube's Day two coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. (energetic music plays)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome back to KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with John Furrier. John, we are in the meat of the conference. >> It's really in crunch time, day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage and this next guest is running the show at CNCF, the OG and been in the community doing a great job. I'm looking forward to this segment. >> Me too. I'm even wearing... You may notice, I am in my CNCF tee, and I actually brought my tee from last year for those of you. And the reason I brought it, actually, I want to use this to help introduce our next guest is the theme last year was resistance realized, and I think that KubeCon this year is an illustration of that resistance realized. Please welcome Priyanka Sharma to the show. Priyanka, thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> This is your show. How are you feeling right now? What does it feel like to be here? >> It's all of our show. I am just another participant, but I am so happy to be here. I think this is our third hybrid in person back event. And the whole ecosystem, we seem to have gotten into the groove now. You know, the first one we did, was in LA >> Savannah: Yes. >> Where you have that shirt from. Then we went to Valencia, and now here in Detroit I could sense the ease in the attendees. I can sense that it just feels great for everyone to be here. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you guys, who were face to face in LA, but this is really kind of back face to face, somewhat normalized, right? >> Priyanka: Yeah. >> And so that's a lot of feedback there. What's your reaction? Because the community's changed so much in three years, >> Savannah: Yes. >> Even two years, even last year. Where do you see it now? Because there's so much more work to do, but it feels like it's just getting started, but also at the same time it feels like people are celebrating at the same time. >> Yeah. >> Kubernetes is mainstream, CloudNative at scale. >> Savannah: That feels like a celebration. >> People are talking about developer... more developers coming on board, more traction, more scale, more interoperability, just a lot of action. What's your thoughts? >> I think you're absolutely right that we are just getting started. I've been part of many open source movements and communities. This is... I think this is something special where we have our flagship project considered mainstream, but yet so much to be done right over there. I mean, you've seen announcements around more and more vendors coming to support the project in, you know, the boring but essential ways that happened I think this week, just today, I think. And so Kubernetes continues to garner support and energy, which is unique in the ecosystem, right? Because once something becomes mainstream, normally, it's like, "Okay, boring." (John laughs) But that's happening. And I think the reason for that is CloudNative. It's built upon Kubernetes and so much more than Kubernetes. >> We have 140 plus projects >> Absolutely. >> and folks have a choice to contribute to something totally cutting edge or something that's, you know, used by everyone. So, the diversity of options and room for innovation at the same time means this is just the beginning. >> And also projects are coming together too. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> You're starting to see formation, you're starting to see some defacto alignment. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> You're starting to see the- >> Priyanka: Clustering. >> Some visibility into how the big moves are being playing out, almost the harvesting of that hard work. >> Priyanka: Yes, I do think there is consolidation, but I would definitely say that there's consolidation and innovation. >> John: Yeah. >> And that is something... I genuinely have not seen this before. I think there are definitely areas we're all really focusing on. I talked a lot about security in my keynote because it continues to gain importance in CloudNative, whether that is through projects or through practices. The same, I did not mention this in my keynote, but around like, you know, continuous delivery generally the software delivery cycle, there's a lot coming together happening there. And, you know, >> John: Yeah. >> many other spaces. So, absolutely right. >> Let's dig in a little bit actually, because I'm curious. You get to see these 140 plus projects. >> Yes. >> What are some of the other trends that you're seeing, especially now, as we're feeling this momentum around Kubernetes? The excitement is back in the ecosystem. >> Yes. So, so much happening. But I would definitely say that like the underlying basis of all these projects, right? I brought that up in my keynote, is the maintainers. And I think the maintainer group, is the talent keeps thriving and growing, the load on them is very heavy though. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And I do think there's a lot more we all company, the companies around us need to do to support these people, because the innovation they're bringing is unprecedented. Besides Kubernetes, which has its own cool stuff all the time. I think I'm particularly excited about the Argo projects. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> So, they're the quadruplets as I like to call them. Right? Because there's four of them within the Argo banner. I had Yuan from Argo on my keynote actually. >> Savannah: Oh, nice. >> Alongside Hiba from Kubernetes. And we talked about their maintainer journey. And it's interesting. Totally different projects. Same asks, you know, which is more support and time from employers, more ways to build up contributors and ultimately they love the CNCF marketing supports. >> That Argo project's really in a great umbrella. There are a lot of action going on. Arlon, I saw that. Got some traction. A lot of great stuff. The question I want to ask you, and I want to get your reaction to this, you know, we always go to a lot of events with theCUBE and you can always tell the vibrant of the ecosystem when you see developers doing stuff, projects going on. But when you start seeing the commercialization >> Priyanka: Yes. >> The news briefings coming out of this show feels a lot like reinvent, like it's like a tsunami. I've never seen this much news. Everyone's got a story, they got announcing products. >> Savannah: That was a lot of news. That's a great point, John. >> There was a lot of flow even from the CNCF. >> Yeah. >> What's your reaction to that? I mean like to me it's a tell sign of activity, certainly, >> Right. >> And engagement. >> Right. >> But there's real proof coming out, real visibility into the value propositions, >> Priyanka: Yes. >> rendering itself with real products. What's your reaction to the news flow? >> Absolutely. I think it's market proof, like you said, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> That we have awesome technologies that are useful to lots of people around the world. And I think that, I hope this continues to increase. And with the bite basket of project portfolios that's what I hope to see. CNCF itself will continue supporting the maintainers with things like conformance programs which are really essential when you are... when you have people building products on top of your projects and other initiatives so that the technological integrity remains solid while innovation keeps happening. >> I know from a little birdie, Brendan, good friend of mine that you had a board meeting today. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> And I am curious because I hope I'm not going out about an assumption I imagine that room is full of passionate people. >> Priyanka: Absolutely. >> CNCF board would be a wild one. (Priyanka laughs) What are the priorities for the board between now and KubeCon next year? >> Sure. So the CNCF governing board is an over... It's like an oversight body. And their focus is on working with us on the executive team to make sure that we have the right game plan for the foundation. They tend to focus on the business decisions, things such as how do we manage our budget, how do we deploy it, and what are the initiatives? And that's always their priority. But because this is CloudNative and we are all technologists who love our projects, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> we also engage closely with the technical oversight committee who was in the said meeting that we just talked about. And so lots of discussions are around project health, sustainability. How do we keep moving? Because as you said, Kubernetes is going mainstream but it's still cool. There are all these other cool things. It's a lot going on, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. You got a lot of balls in the air. It's complex decision making and balancing of priorities. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> John: And demands, stakeholders. You have how many stakeholders? Every project, every person, every company. >> Everyone's a stakeholder. You're a stakeholder, too. >> And a hundred... I mean, I love how community focused you are. Obviously we're here to talk about the community. You have contributors from 187 different countries. >> Priyanka: It's one of the things I'm the most proud of. >> Savannah: It's... Yeah. It gives me all the feels as a community builder as well. >> Priyanka: Yeah. >> What an accomplishment and supporting community members in those different environments must be so dynamic for you and the team. >> Absolutely, and it behooves us to think globally in how we solve problems. Even when we introduce programs. My first question is, are we by accident being, let's say, default U.S. or are we being default Europe, whatever it may be because we really got to think about the whole world. >> John: It's global culture, it's a global village. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> And I think global now more than ever is so important. And, the Ukraine >> Priyanka: Yes. >> discussion on the main stage was awesome. I love how you guys did that because this is impacting the technology. We need the diverse input. Now I made a comment yesterday that it's going to make... it might slow things down. I meant as is more diversity, there's more conversations. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> But once people get aligned and committed, that's where the magic happens. Share your thoughts on the global diversity, why it's important, how things are made, how decisions are made. What's the philosophy? Because there's more to get your arms around. >> Yes, absolutely. It may seem harder or slower or whatever but once it gets done, aligned and committed, the product's better, everything's better. >> Priyanka: Yes, absolutely. I think the more people involved, the better it is for sure. Especially from a robustness resilience perspective. Because you know, as they say, sunlight makes bugs shallow. That's because the more eyes on something the faster people will solve problems, fix bugs and make, you know, look for security, vulnerability, solve all that. So especially in those areas, I think, where you want to be more resilient, the more the people, the better it is. A hundred percent. And then when it comes to direct technical direction and choosing a path, I think that's where, you know it's the role of the maintainers. And as I was saying there's only a thousand audit maintainers for 140 plus projects, right? So they are catering- >> Wow, they have a lot of responsibility. >> Right. >> Serious amount of responsibility. >> It's crazy. I know. And we have to do everything we can for those people because they are the ones who set the vision, set the direction, and then 176,000 plus contributors follow their lead. So we have... I think, the bright mechanisms of contribution and collaboration in a global way are in place. And we keep chugging along and doing better and better each year. >> What's next for you guys? You got the EU of show coming out, >> Priyanka: Correct, Amsterdam. the economy looking, I don't see your recession for technology, but that's me. I'm Polish on tech. Yeah, there's some layoffs going on, some cleaning up, overinflated expectations on valuations of startups, but I don't see this stopping or slowing down. But what's your take? >> Priyanka: Yeah, I mean, as I said in my keynote, right? Open source usage soars in times of turmoil and financial turmoil is one example of that. So we are expecting growth and heavy growth this year, next year and onwards. And in fact, going back to the whole maintainer journey, now is a time there's even more pressure on them and companies as they manage their, you know, workforces and prioritization, they really need to remember they're building products off of open source. They are... This is open sources on which what their business realize, whether they're a vendor or end user and give maintainers a space time to work on what they need to work on. >> Yeah. They need a little work-life balance. I mean the self-care there, I can't even imagine the complexity of the decision matrix in their mind. Speaking of that, and obviously you... Culture must be a huge part of how you lead these teams. How do you approach that as leader? >> I think the number one... So the foundation is a very small set of staff, just so you know. >> Savannah: I was actually... Let's tell the audience, how many people are on the team? >> Priyanka: You know, it's actually a difficult question because we have folks who like spin up and down and we have matrix support from the Linux Foundation, but about 30 people in total are dedicated to CNCF at any given time. >> Savannah: Wow. >> But compared... >> Savannah: You all do hard work. >> Yes. >> Savannah: You're doing great. I am impressed. >> It's a flat organization. >> It's pretty flat. >> Seriously, it's beautiful. >> It's actually in some ways very similar to the projects and there the, you know, contribution communities there where it's like everyone kind of like steps up and does what needs to be done, which is wonderful and beautiful, but with the responsibility on our shoulders, it's definitely a balancing act. So first off, it is, I ask everyone to have some grace for the staff. They are in a startup land with no IPO on the other side of the rainbow. They're doing it because they love love, love this community and technology so much. >> John: Yeah. Yeah, and then also they're acknowledging that nobody in open source wants to see a bureaucracy. >> Priyanka: Right. >> I mean, everyone see lean, efficient. >> Savannah: Yeah, absolutely John. It's great. It's a great point. And and I think that it's just... It's amazing what passionate people can do if given the opportunity. Let's talk a little bit about the literal event that we're at right now. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> Theme today, building for the road ahead. >> Priyanka: Yes. >> What was the inspiration for that? >> Detroit. (group laughs) We're in Detroit, people drive here. >> Savannah: In case you didn't know, cars have been made in this city. >> Motor city. >> It's everywhere being here in this city, which is awesome. >> But you know, it did... There was of course a geographical element but it also aligns with where we're at, right? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> We're building for the road ahead, which frankly given the changes going on in the world is a bumpy road. So it's important to talk about it. And that's what the theme was. >> And how many folks have shown up... This is a totally different energy from Los Angeles last year. I'm sure we can both agree. Everyone was excited last year, but this is an order of magnitude. >> Yes. >> How many folks do you think are milling around? >> Yeah, it's much more than double of Los Angeles. We are close to 8,000. >> Savannah: That's amazing. And it's so... You're absolutely right. The energy is just... >> Savannah: Way up. >> It's so good. People are enjoying themselves. It's been lovely. >> That's great. So you're feeling good? You're riding the high? >> Congratulations. >> Awesome. >> Yeah, thank you. I mean, I'm a little bit of a zombie right now. (group laughs) >> You don't look it, we wouldn't know. Nobody knows. They don't know. >> If you want to take a break, We got 12 interviews tomorrow. (Savannah and Priyanka laughing) You can co-host with us. We'd love to have you. >> Exactly. You're welcome anytime. Welcome anytime, Priyanka. >> Well thank you. But no, it's been such a wonderful show and you folks are part of the reason you say everybody here is contributing to the awesomeness. >> John: Yep. >> You're part of it. Look at your smiley faces. >> John: And Lisa Marty is over there. Lisa's over there. >> Yes! >> Say hi to Lisa and team. >> Yes, the team is awesome. >> Guys, thank you for your support for theCUBE. We really appreciate it. We enjoy it a lot. And we love the community. Thank you. >> Yes. Thank you for your support for CloudNative. >> Thank you. >> One last thing I just want to point out, because it's not always it happens in this industry. The women outnumber the men on this stage right now. >> John: Proud of that? >> And I know the diversity and inclusion is a priority for CNCF. >> Priyanka: Top priority. >> Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? >> Yes. It is something at the forefront of my mind, no matter what we do. And it's because I have such great role models. You know, when I was just a participant in the ecosystem, Dan Conn was leading the foundation and he took it so seriously to always try to uplift people from a diverse backgrounds and bring those faces into CloudNative. >> Savannah: Yes. >> And he made a serious lasting impact. >> John: Yes. >> And I am not going to let that go to waste. It's not going to be me who drops the ball. (group laughs) >> We're behind you all the way. >> Right? >> We see improvement over here. >> We got your back. >> I mean, even from an attendance perspective on stage I feel like you've done just an outstanding job with the curation and representation. I don't say that lightly. It really matters to me. But even in the audience looking around, it's so refreshing. Even it sounds silly. The shirts are more fitted. >> It's not silly. >> There's different types of shirts, and I mean, you know how it is. We've been in this industry long enough. >> It's a shirt you want to wear. >> Savannah: Exactly. And that's the whole point. I absolutely love it. Have we announced a location for KubeCon North America 2023, yet? >> It's Chicago. >> Savannah: Exciting! >> Yes. >> Savannah: All right. So we'll be seeing you >> Midwest. >> not that far away. >> This is the first time I've said this publicly, I just realized, It's Chicago, people. >> The scoop, yay! >> Oh, I feel so lucky we got to break the scoop. I was learning from John's lead there and I'm very excited. Amsterdam, Chicago. It's going to be absolutely >> I'll get my hotel now. >> Fantastic. >> Yes. >> Smart move. Everybody listen to him. >> Yeah, right? Especially after Detroit. It's actually not a... It's not a bad move. Priyanka, is there anything else you'd like to say to folks? Maybe they're thinking about coming or contributing to the ecosystem? >> Priyanka: Yes. Anyone and everyone can and should contribute and join us. The maintainers are holding us all up. Let's rally to support them. We have more and more programs to do that. As you know, we did ContribFest here this week which was the first time. So we will help you get involved so you're not on your own. So that's my number one message, which is anyone and everyone, you're welcome here. We'll make sure you have a good time. So just come. >> Okay. Please do it. >> I can tell you that Priyanka is not blowing smoke. I feel very welcome here. This community has welcomed me as a non-technical, so I think you're absolutely preaching the truth. Priyanka, thank you so much for being here with us today on the show, for helping herd the cats and wrangle the brilliant minds that make CNCF possible. And honestly for just bringing your energy and joy to the entire experience. John, thank you for hanging out with me. >> I'm glad I can contribute in a small way. >> I was going to say... I was going to say thank you for founding theCUBE so that we could be here in this little marriage and collaboration can be possible. And thank all of you for tuning in to theCUBE here, live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson. I am thrilled to be sharing this content with you today and I hope to see you for the rest of our interviews this afternoon. (gentle upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain in Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my cohot Paul Gillon, who's been putting in some pretty good work talking to incredible people. And we have, I don't wanna call, heard the face of CNCF, but you kind of introduced me to, you don't know this, but you know, charmer executive director of CNCF. You introduced me to Kuan at Cuan San Diego's my one of my first CU coupons. And I was trying to get my bearings about me and you're on stage and I'm like, okay. Uh, she looks like a reasonable person. This might be a reasonable place to learn about cloud native. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having me. And that's so nice to hear >><laugh> it is an amazing show, roughly 7,500 people. >>Yes, that's right. Sold out >>Sold. That's a big show. And with that comes, you know, uh, so someone told me, uh, CNCF is an outstanding organization, which it, which it is you're the executive director. And I told them, you know what, that's like being the president of the United States without having air force one. <laugh> like you get home. I dunno >>About that. You >>Get, no, you get all of the, I mean, 7,500 people from across, literally across the world. That's true at Europe. We're in Europe, we're in, we're coming out of times that have been, you know, it can't be overstated. It, this, this is unlike any other times. >>Yes, absolutely >>Difficult decisions. There was a whole co uh, uh, I don't know the term, uh, uh, cuffa uh, or blow up about mask versus no mask. How do you manage just, just the diversity of the community. >>That is such a great question, because I, as I mentioned in my keynote a little bit, right? At this point, we're a community of what, 7.1 million developers. That's a really big group. And so when we think about how should we manage the diversity, the way I see it, it's essential to treat each other with kindness, professionalism, and respect. Now that's easy to say, right. Because it sounds great. Right. Old paper is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great >>Concept. 0.1 million people later. >><laugh> exactly. And so, uh, this is why like, uh, I phoned a friend on stage and, um, van Jones came and spoke with us. Who's the renowned CNN contributor, uh, commentator, sorry. And his advice was very much that in such a diverse community, there's always gonna be lots of perspectives, lots opinions. And we need to a always bring the version of ourselves, which we think will empower this ecosystem, BEC what are, what we are doing. If everybody did that, is that gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? And the other is we need to give each other space and grace, um, space to do what we need to do. Grace. If there are mistakes, if there are challenges. And so those are, those are some good principles for us to live by. And I think that in terms of how CNCF tries to enable the diversity, it's by really trying to hear from everybody possible, the vocal loud voices, as well as the folks who you need to reach out a little bit, pull in a little bit. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge that we do our best with. >>How do you balance? And I've been to a lot of trade shows and conferences over the years, their trade organizers are very coin operated. You know, they're there, they're there for the money. Yeah. <laugh> and you have traditional trade shows and you have a situation here where an open source community that is motivated by very different, um, principles, but you need to make money. You need the show to be profitable. Uh, you need to sell some sponsorships, but you also need to keep it available and open to the people who, who don't have the big budgets. How are you balancing that? >>So I would actually like to, uh, share something that may not be obvious, which is that we don't actually do the shows to make money. We, um, as you said, like, uh, a lot of trade shows are coin up and the goal there is like, um, well actually they're different kinds of, I think if it's an independent event organization, it can be like, Hey, let's make as much revenue as possible. If it's part of a large, um, large company, like, like cloud provider, et cetera, the events tend to be lost leaders because they're like lead gen, I think, >>But they're, they're lost leaders, but they're profit makers ultimately >>Long term. Yeah. Yeah. It's like top of the funnel. I, I guess for us, we are only doing the events to enable the community and bring people from different companies together. So our goal is to try and break even <laugh> >>Well, that's, that's laudable. Um, the, how big does it get though? I mean, you're at the point with 7,500 attendees here where you're on the cusp of being a really big event, uh, would you limit it size eventually? Or are you just gonna let this thing run? Its course. >>So our inherent belief is that we want to be accessible and open to more and more and more people because the mission is to make cloud native ubiquitous. Right. Uh, and so that means we are excited about growth. We are excited about opening the doors for as everyone, but I think actually the one, one good thing that came out of this pandemic is that we've become a lot more comfortable with hybrid. So we have a virtual component and an in-person component. So combining that, I think makes it well, it's very challenging cause like running to events, but it's also like, it can scale a little bit better. And then if the numbers increase from like, if they double, for example, we're still, I think we're still not in the realm of south by Southwest, which, which feels like, oh, that's the step function difference. So linear increases in number of attendees, I think is a good thing. If, and when we get to the point where it's, um, you know, exponential growth at that point, we have to think about, um, a completely different event really. Right, >>Right. So 7 billion people in the world approaching 8 billion, 7.1 members in the community. Technology is obviously an enabler where I it's enabled me to, to be here and Licia Spain experiencing this beautiful city. There's so much work to be done. What mm-hmm <affirmative> what is the role of CNCF in providing access to education and technology for the rest of the world? >>Absolutely. So, you know, one of the key, uh, areas we focus on is learning and development in supporting the ecosystem in learners beginners to start their cloud native journey or expand their cloud native journey with training certifications, and actually shared this in the keynote every year. Uh, the increase in number of people taking certifications grows by 216% year over year growth. It's a lot, right? And every week about a thousand people are taking a certification exam. So, and we set that up primarily to bring people in and that's one of our more successful initiatives, but we do so many, we do mentorship programs, internship programs. We, uh, a lot of diversity scholarships, these events, it all kind of comes together to support the ecosystem, to grow >>The turning away from the events, uh, toward just toward the CNCF Brit large, you have a growing number of projects. The, the number of projects within CNCF is becoming kind of overwhelming. Is there an upper threshold at which you would, do you tighten the, the limits on, on what projects you will incubate or how big does that tent become? >>Right. I think, you know, when we had 50 projects, we were feeling overwhelmed then too, but we seem to have cop just fine. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that cloud native has been growing so fast with the world. It's a representative of what's going on in our world over the course of the pandemic. As you know, every company became a technology company. People had to like double their engineering staffs over without anybody ever having met in person mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And when that kind of change is going around the world cloud needing be being the scaffolding of how people build and deploy modern software just grew really with it. And the use cases we needed to support grew. That's why the types of projects and kinds of projects is growing. So there's a method. There's a reason to the madness I should say. And I think, um, as the world and, uh, the landscape of technology evolves cloud native will, will evolve and keep developing in either into new projects or consolidation of projects and everything is on the table. >>So I think one of these perceptions Riley Arone is that CNCF is kind of where the big people go to play. If you're a small project and you're looking at CNCF, you're thinking one day I'll get big enough. Like how should small project leaders or leaders of small projects, how should they engage CNCF? >>Totally. And, you know, I want to really change this narrative because, um, in CNCF we have three tiers of projects. There's the graduated ones, which are at the top. These are the most mature ones we really believe and put our sand behind them. They, uh, then there's the incubating projects, which are pretty solid technologies with good usage that are getting there. And then there's the sandbox, which is literally a sandbox and op open ground for innovation. And the bar to entry is low in that it's, uh, easy to apply. There's a mass boat to get you in. And once you're in, you have a neutral IP zone created by being a CNCF project that you can attract more maintainers, more companies can start collaborating. So we, we become an enabler for the small projects, so everybody should know that >>FYI. Yeah. So I won't be interested to know how that, so I have an idea. So let's say I don't have an idea, but let's say that idea have, >>I'm sure you have an idea. <laugh>, I'm >>Sure I have idea. And, and I just don't have the infrastructure to run a project. I need help, but I think it it's going to solve a pro problem. Yeah. What's that application process like, >>So, okay. So you apply after you already have let's a GitHub repo. Okay. Yeah. >>So you, I have a GI help repo. >>Yeah. As in like your pro you've started the project, you started the coding, you've like, put it out there on GitHub, you have something going. And so it's not at just ideal level. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's at like early stage of execution level. Um, and so, and then your question was, how do you apply? >>Yeah. So how do I, so I have, let's say that, uh, let, let's talk about something I'm thinking about doing, and I actually do, is that we're thinking about doing a open store, a cloud native framework for people migrating to the public cloud, to, or to cloud native. There's just not enough public information about that. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna contribute what I know to it. So that's a project in itself, not necessarily a software project, but a IP project, or let's say I have a tool to do that migration. And I put that up on my GitHub report. I want people to iterate on that tool. >>Right. So it would be a simple process of literally there is when you go to, um, our, uh, online, uh, materials, there's a simple process for sandbox where you fill a Google form, where you put in your URL, explain what you're doing, or some basic information hit submit. And we batch process these, um, about every once a month, I think. And, uh, the TC looks at the, what you've filled in, takes a group vote and goes from there. >>When about your operating model, I mean, do, do you, you mentioned you don't look to make a profit in this show. Do you look, and I wanna be sure CNCF is a non-profit, is that correct? Correct. Do you look, what models do you look at in determining your own governance? Do you look at a commercial business? Do you look at a nonprofit? Um, like of ourselves? Yeah. What's your model for how you run CNCF. >>Oh, okay. So it's a nonprofit, as I said, and our model is very simple. We want to raise the funds that we are able to raise in order to then invest them into community initiatives that play the supporter enabler role to all these projects we just talked about. We're not, we are never the project. We are the top cheerleader of the project. Think of us like that. And in terms of, um, but interestingly, unlike, I, I mean, I don't know much about other found, uh, nonprofit session compare, but interestingly, the donating companies are relevant, not just because of their cash that they have put in, but because those companies are part of this ecosystem and they need to, um, them being in this ecosystem, they help create content around cloud native. They, they do more than give us money. And that's why we really like our members, uh, they'll provide contributing engineers to projects. They will help us with marketing with case studies and interviews and all of that. And so it, it becomes this like healthy cycle of it starts with someone donating to become a member, but they end up doing so many different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ultimately the goal is make cloud native ubiquitous and all this goes towards >>That. So talk to me about conflict resolution, because there's some really big projects in CNC, but only some stuff that is changed, literally changing the world, but there's competing interest between some of the projects. I mean, you, you, there there's, if you look at service mesh, there's a lot of service mesh solutions Uhhuh. Yes. And there's just different visions. Where's the CNCF and, and kind of just making sure the community aspect is thought across all of the different or considered across all the different projects as they have the let's say inevitably bump heads. >>Yeah. So by design CNCF was never meant to be a king maker where you picked one project. Right. And I think that's been working out really well because, um, one is when you accept a project, you're not a hundred percent sure that specific one is gonna take over that technology space. Right. So we're leaving it open to see who works it out. The second is that as every company is becoming a technology company, use cases are different. So a service mesh service mesh a might work really well for my company, but it really may not be a fit for your code base. And so the diversity of options is actually a really good thing. >>So talk to me about, uh, saw an interesting note coming out of the keynote yesterday, 65% of the participants here at CU con are new to Kuan. I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a vet. You are, I went to two or three before this. So O GE yeah, OG actually, that's what I tweeted OG of Kuan, but, uh, who, who are they like, what's making up? Are they developers? Are they traditional enterprises? Are they contributing companies? Who's the 65%, >>Um, who's the 65%, >>Right? The new, new, >>Well, it's all kinds of C companies sending their developers, right? It's sometimes there's a lot of them are end users. I think at least half or a third, at least of attendees are end user companies. And, uh, then there is also like the new startups around town. And then there is like the, every big company or small has been hiring developers as fast as possible. And even if they've always been a player in cloud native, they need to send all these people to this ecosystem to start building the relationships start like learning the technology. So it's all kinds of folks are collecting to that here. >>As I, as I think about people starting to learn the technologies, learn the communities, the one thing the market change for this coupon for me over others is the number of customers, sharing stories, end user organizations. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> much of the cuon that I've been through many of the open source conferences. It's always been like vendors pushing their message, et cetera. What talk, tell me about that. C change. >>One thing that's like just immediate, um, and the case right now is that all the co-chairs for the event who are in charge of designing the agenda are end users. So we have Emily Fox from apple. We have Jasmine James from Twitter, and we have Ricardo Roka from se. So they're all end users. So naturally they're like, you know, picking talks that they're like, well, this is very relevant. Imma go for that and I'm here for it. Right? So that's one thing that's just happening. The other though is a greater trend, which is, as I was saying in the pandemic, so many companies has to get going and quickly that they have built expertise and users are no longer the passive recipients of information. They're equal contributors. They know what they need, what they want, they have experiences to share. And you're seeing that reflected in the conference. >>One thing I've seen at other conferences in the past that started out really for practitioners, uh, is that invariably, they want to go upscale and they wanna draw the CIOs and the, oh yeah. The, uh, you know, the executive, the top executives. Is that an objective, uh, for you or, or do you really want to keep this kind of a, a t-shirt crowd for the long term? >>Hey, everyone's welcome. That's really important, you know? Right. And, um, so we, and that's why we are trying to expand. It's like, you know, middle out as they had in the Silicon valley show the idea being, sorry, I just meant this a little. Okay. So the idea being that we've had the core developer crews, developer, DevOps, SRE crowd, right op over the course of the last virtual events, we actually expanded in the other direction. We put in a business value track, which was more for like people in the business, but not in as a developer or DevOps engineer. We also had a student thing where it's like, you're trying to get all the university crowd people, and it's been working phenomen phenomenally. And then actually this, this event, we went, uh, in the other direction as well. We hosted our inaugural CTO summit, which is for senior leadership and end user companies. And the idea is they're discussing topics of technology that are business relevant. So our topic this time was resiliency in multi-cloud and we're producing a research paper about it. That's gonna come out in some weeks. So BA so with, for us, it's about getting everybody under this tent. Right. And, but it will never mean that we deprioritize what we started with, which is the engineering crowd. It's just an expansion >>Stay true to your roots. >>Yes. Well, Prianca, we're going to talk to a lot of those startup communities tomorrow. Ah, tomorrow's coverage. It's all about startups. Why should CTOs, uh, new startups talk to these upstarts of as opposed to some of the bigger players here on the show floor, over 170 sponsoring companies, the show floor has been vibrant engaging. Yes. And we're going to get into that community tomorrow's coverage on the cube from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader and high tech coverage.

hey welcome back to los angeles thecube is live here at kubecon cloud native con 2021 we're so excited to be here in person lisa martin with dave nicholson and we are here with priyanka sharma the executive director of cnc at prayanka welcome to the program thank you so much for having me first of all congratulations on doing an event in person in such a safe clean way i was really impressed when i walked in this morning was asked for my vaccination record my temperature was scanned you're proving you can do these events safely this isn't rocket science so agreed and i'm so glad you appreciate all the measures we've put in place because this is how we can do it in-person interaction is essential for us as human beings for us as professionals and so we owe it to each other to just do the right thing you know have a vaccine requirement wear your masks have these what i call the traffic light uh system where if you have a green a green band it means people can come a little closer it's okay red means please at least six feet of distance and these things go a long way in making an event successful in times like this they do i love that when i saw that mine keeps falling off i'm cold so it keeps falling i'm green just so you know i know you're green what about you i'm green here you can can i have yours that's my favorite and you know you fell off again you had um the three folks that came up who were uh like uh co-chairs co-chairs yeah yeah and uh and they did almost a little almost a little skit yes that on the surface people could say well that's ridiculous and it's like no it's not it's giving everybody the guidelines so that everyone can be comfortable because when i see your green wristband i understand that you are comfortable because i don't want to accidentally reach out to give you a fist bump when you might be particularly of course yeah yeah so no visual cues make it easy yes yeah yeah very very easy very comfortable talk about the energy at the event this is the second full day tina was standing room only yesterday give us an overview of the energy and some of the things that are happening since you can't replicate those hallway networking conversations on video conference i know exactly what you mean man it is so lovely to be in person to meet people and you know for those who are comfortable there's like the fist bumps and the hugs and the big smiles and that energy i haven't seen it in almost two years um and even you know just standing on stage as i was telling you folks uh off camera i've been in this role for over a year and a close to a year and a half i've done three cube cons already but this was my first in person and being on that stage experiencing the energy of the people in that room like when i asked everyone during my keynote i was like are you all proud to be team cloud native and i got a resounding yes back from the audience that's what i'm talking about yeah you know it was amazing what's some of the news that's breaking lots of stuff going on obviously some first one in person in almost two years but talk to me about some of the the news that's breaking here at the event yes so so much new stuff to share um from our side on cncf our journey has been very much about being celebrating our culture and welcoming more and more people into it so that we can have more folks in team cloud native to take various jobs to find fulfillment and all those great things right and all of our announcements are around that theme of people finding a place here people paying it forward in this community and building the culture the first one i would like to share is the announcement of the kubernetes and cloud native associate certification so this is an exam that is going to go live end of the year so people sign up apparently the beta signups went away like this after i announced it so it was really cool wow popular by demanding yeah very very popular and it's it's an exam for folks who are brand new to cloud native and it the studying for it you'll go through you know the fun fundamentals of kubernetes what is the cncf landscape what are the key projects and ultimately you will actually deploy an application using coop cuddle commands and it's such a great primer so so how brand new can someone be when you when you say brand new are you talking about someone who already has a phd in computer science but hasn't done anything in the kubernetes space tell me how brand new can you be uh-huh that's a very good question and it is literally you can come with zero knowledge you would of course have to study for the exam and like go through that journey but the idea is that it is the gateway and so it is possible you're a phd in computer science but you've studied some esoteric part of computer science that's very unconnected to what we do sure go ahead and take it but maybe most likely you would like the more advanced certifications better but if you're let's say a marketer looking to break into the cloud native industry this is the move take this exam and suddenly all these employers you speak their language they'll be impressed that you took it and it's it's an opportunity to advance your career the oh community is huge i was looking at the website the other day 138 000 contributors yes from more than 177 countries 186 is the latest number 186 awesome 289 plus million lines of code written this community is really so productive and so prolific and it's great that you're offering more folks that don't have the background like you were saying to be able to get in and get started absolutely it's our whole thing of bring in more people because as you all probably know there's so much demand for cloud native skill sets across job functions so that's why we're here to help with yeah i you know i i want to double click on this as we say because you hear the word inclusive associated with this whole community so much um you're talking about something that is a certification yeah a marketer okay fine but we're really talking about anyone who has the drive to potentially completely transform their lives yes and in this age where things can be done remotely you don't necessarily have to live in silicon valley or cambridge massachusetts to do this or in one of the other global centers of technology anywhere yeah so that's the that's the kind of energy that's part of this that isn't a part of any large industry focused conference because you really are making opportunities for people of all backgrounds to change their lives so i don't know i don't am i extending a a virtual thank you from all of those people whose lives have been changed and will be changed in the future maybe i am but so but talk about inclusiveness in in you know from from other perspectives yes i think that you know talent drive skills none of these are exclusive to a certain zip code you know people everywhere have great qualities and deserve chances and why shouldn't they be part of a community that as you said is especially inclusive feels especially nice to be a part of and that's what i exhorted the community to do in my keynote yesterday which is that our ranks will grow and we should go out of our way to make sure our ranks grow and we do that by shining a light on our culture telling people to join in lending a hand and you know letting people's personalities shine even when they'll be different from who we are whether in terms of job function or skill set whatever and i think that's the top level um paradigm that we want to have right where we are always welcoming people when we think of inclusiveness it is you know there is certifications like kcna did do a great job there are also efforts that we must always be doing so something that we work on constantly consistently is contributor strategy where we're working on creating ladders and pathways for folks to become open source contributors it is known now that open source contributions lead to job advancement in your career right and so the whole goal is bring people in not just to hang out not just to talk but to actually grow and actually kubecon cloudnativecon is a great example of another little thing we do which is uh we uh award uh underrepresented minorities and people who are who need need-based funds scholarships to attend nice yeah and it's changed one thousand 1518 lives already and we actually uh in uh in this event have announced that we are renaming the scholarship to the dan khan scholarship fund um i i do you folks know dan yes did yeah so dan he breathed life into team cloud native right he built this organization to have the impact that it does today and all the while he was relentlessly focused on diversity equity inclusion so it was it was just like the idea came from within the team and the minute someone said it it just struck a chord with all of us yeah we're like we're doing this no question and it was one of the fastest decisions we've ever made i saw uh some results of a dei micro survey on the website where 75 percent of respondents say this community is becoming more inclusive there's obviously work to go but as a female in technology you feel that you see that as well yes i think i'm very proud of that survey that we did by the way because it's our way we're going to keep doing it it's our way to keep a pulse on the ecosystem because you can keep doing initiatives right but if people are not feeling great then who cares and so um but yes i think dei is a journey if there is no destination right always we have to be thinking harder trying harder to you know i think for example something cncf's done a great job is identifying particularly gender diverse folks who are in the community and maybe could deserve a role of high responsibility so i'm really proud that our technical oversight committee which is our really the top technical people in the ecosystem who desi decide project stuff they are led by a woman there's many women on that and it's they're all very exemplary awesome technologists and so i think um the diversity survey gives us like a hint into like the things people do like and i mean the fact remains we need to do more to source more people to come into the ecosystem we need to always be changing and evolving with the needs of the community right as i mentioned the community is 138 000 strong 6.8 million plus contributions so far you can imagine by opening that dei door just the thought diversity that comes in alone and the number of projects that will come from folks that just come in with a different mindset oh 100 we are already seeing that um we started off as folks who had you know lots of projects from the great big tech companies people who had web scale problems as i call it and that was great but in recent years the end users who are initially just consuming this technology and that too slowly are now hook line and sinker in and we have like argo cd came from intuit which is an end user uh backstage came from spotify which is an end user so this trend is growing and the diversity as you said is continuing yeah i i'm particularly interested in the dynamic where you have people who have their day job if you will where their employer is absolutely 100 encouraging them to participate in the community to develop things that will not only help the employer and that mission but also building uh solutions for everyone and providing enrichment for the for the person and and i i'm i'm going to make a little bit of a prediction i want to get your thoughts on this i think that um one of the silver linings of what we've been through in the pandemic having a lot of people at home having that relationship with your primary employer be just a little bit different and just a little bit more removed i think everyone is realizing that you know what um we all need a passion play to be a part of in addition to whatever we're doing to put bread on the table in the immediate future and so i i think that i want to hear your thoughts there's going to be an explosion in contributions from people and hopefully a lot more openness on the part of employers to let people dedicate their time to this do you do you see that do you think that yes i think i think you're really on to something here um something i mentioned in my keynote right was this conversation i've had with so many that we in this community our identity is cloud native first so we're folks who are in team cloud native before we are working at insert company name you know um google at t spotify whatever it's not a dig on the company it's actually a celebration of those companies because they are liking the developments that happen in open source they are appreciating the value these people are creating and they're employing them so absolutely there is this ongoing trend of folks seeing great value in folks who understand this cloud native projects in particular and of course right because we have been such a great place for industry collaboration lots of vendors have great products make lots of money on these projects and that's as it should be and so the value of the people contributing to these projects is very high and it will only continue to grow i imagine so so here we are in los angeles at kubecon cloud native con 21 what's what's next well uh the good news is this was the first of many to come hybrid events in person plus virtual and the next one is happening in end of may in valencia for europe 22. valencia spain and i have heard beautiful weather very nice people amazing food so just for that that alone is worth registration yes i know right it's going to be amazing i'm so excited and i hope i will see you folks there sign me up i've never been to spain i'm there me too let's do it excited let's do it for our spanish-speaking uh viewers i will say claroque he you can't you do you can do it all you can speak spanish on the queue we can have something honestly i'm impressed i'm impressed i can't i can't do that any and you donated your green card so thank you so much so nice congratulations on the event thank you uh for growing the community for and growing the diversity of it and for the the projects that are going on now and we're sure many more to come we look forward to seeing you in valencia in may thank you so much see you in valencia all right we'll see you there for dave nicholson i'm lisa martin we are live in los angeles the cube is covering kubecon and cloudnativecon at 21. stick around we'll be back after a short break with our next guest

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Yukon and Cloud. Native Con North America. 2020. Virtual Brought to You by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners Welcome back to the Cube. Virtual coverage of KUB Con Cloud native 2020. It's virtual this year. We're not face to face. Were normally in person where we have great interviews. Everyone's kind of jamming in the hallways, having a good time talking tech, identifying the new projects and knew where So we're not. There were remote. I'm John for your host. We've got two great gas, both Cuba alumni's Chris. And is it chief technology officer of the C and C F Chris, Welcome back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Awesome. Glad to be here. >>And, of course, another Cube alumni who is in studio. But we haven't had him at a Show Jr store meant executive director of the Fin Ops Foundation. And that's the purpose of this session. A interesting data point we're going to dig into how cloud has been enabling Mawr communities, more networks of practitioners who are still working together, and it's also a success point Chris on the C N C F vision, which has been playing out beautifully. So we're looking forward to digging. Jr. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. >>Yeah, great to be here. Thanks, John. >>So, first of all, I want to get the facts out there. I think this is really important story that people should pay attention to the Finn Ops Foundation. That J. R. That you're running is really an interesting success point because it's it's not the c n c f. Okay. It's a practitioner that builds on cloud. Your experience in community you had is doing specific things that they're I won't say narrow but specific toe a certain fintech things. But it's really about the success of Cloud. Can you explain and and layout for take a minute to explain What is the fin Ops foundation and has it relate to see NCF? >>Yeah, definitely. So you know, if you think about this, the shift that we've had to companies deploying primarily in cloud, whether it be containers a ciencia focuses on or traditional infrastructure. The thing that typically people focus on right is the technology and innovation and speed to market in all those areas. But invariably companies hit this. We'd like to call the spend panic moment where they realize they're They're initially spending much more than they expected. But more importantly, they don't really have the processes in place or the people or the tools to do things like fully, you know, understand where their costs are going to look at how to optimize those to operate that in their organizations. And so the foundation pinups foundation eyes really focused on, uh, the people in practitioners who are in organizations doing cloud financial management, which is, you know, being those who drive this accountability of this variable spin model that's existed. So we were partnering very closely with, uh, see NCF. And we're now actually part of the Linux Foundation as of a few months ago, Uh, and you know, just to kind of put into context how that you kind of Iraq together, whereas, you know, CNC s very focused on open source coordinative projects, you know, For example, Spotify just launched their backstage cloud called Management Tool into CFCF Spotify folks, in our end, are working on the best practices around the cloud financial management that standards to go along with that. So we're there to help, you know, define this sort of cultural transformation, which is a shift to now. Engineers happen to think about costs as they never did before. On finance, people happen to partner with technology teams at the speed of cloud, and, you know executives happen to make trade off decisions and really change the way that they operate the business. With this variable page ago, engineers have all the access to spend the money in Cloud Model. >>Hey, blank check for engineers who doesn't like that rain that in its like shift left for security. And now you've got to deal with the financial Finn ops. It's really important. It's super point, Chris. In all seriousness. Putting kidding aside, this is exactly the kind of thing you see with open sores. You're seeing things like shift left, where you wanna have security baked in. You know what Jr is done in a fabulous job with his community now part of Linux Foundation scaling up, there's important things to nail down that is specific to that domain that are related to cloud. What's your thoughts on this? Because you're seeing it play out. >>Yeah, no, I mean, you know, I talked to a lot of our end user members and companies that have been adopting Cloud Native and I have lots of friends that run, you know, cloud infrastructure at companies. And Justus Jr said, You know, eventually there's been a lot of success and cognitive and want to start using a lot of things. Your bills are a little bit more higher than you expect. You actually have trouble figuring out, you know, kind of who's using what because, you know, let's be honest. A lot of the clouds have built amazing services. But let's say the financial management and cost management accounting tools charge back is not really built in well. And so I kind of noticed this this issue where it's like, great everyone's using all these services. Everything is great, But costs are a little bit confusing, hard to manage and, you know, you know, scientifically, you know, I ran into, you know, Jr and his community out there because my community was having a need of like, you know, there's just not good tools, standards, no practices out there. And, you know, the Finau Foundation was working on these kind of great things. So we started definitely found a way to kind of work together and be under the same umbrella foundation, you know, under the under Linux Foundation. In my personal opinion, I see more and more standards and tools to be created in this space. You know, there's, you know, very few specifications or standards and trying to get cost, you know, data out of different clouds and tools out there, I predict, Ah, lot more work is going to be done. Um, in this space, whether it's done and defendants foundation itself, CNC f, I think will probably be, uh, collaboration amongst communities. Can I truly figure this out? So, uh, engineers have any easier understanding of, you know, if I spent up the service or experiment? How much is this actually going to potentially impact the cost of things and and for a while, You know, uh, engineers just don't think about this. When I was at Twitter, we spot up services all time without really care about cost on, and that's happening a lot of small companies now, which don't necessarily have as a big bucket. So I'm excited about the space. I think you're gonna see a huge amount of focus on cloud financial management drops in the near future. >>Chris, thanks for that great insight. I think you've got a great perspective. You know, in some cases, it's a fast and loose environment. Like Twitter. You mentioned you've got kind of a blank check and the rocket ships going. But, Jr, this brings up to kind of points. This kind of like the whole code side of it. The software piece where people are building code, but also this the human error. I mean, we were playing with clubs, so we have a big media cloud and Amazon and we left there. One of the buckets open on the switches and elemental. We're getting charged. Massive amounts for us cash were like, Wait a minute, not even using this thing. We used it once, and it left it open. It was like the water was flowing through the pipes and charging us. So you know, this human error is throwing the wrong switch. I mean, it was simply one configuration error, in some cases, just more about planning and thinking about prototypes. >>Yeah. I mean, so take what your experience there. Waas and multiply by 1000 development teams in a big organization who all have access to cloud. And then, you know, it's it's and this isn't really about a set of new technologies. It's about a new set of processes and a cultural change, as Chris mentioned, you know, engineers now thinking about cost and this being a whole new efficiency metric for them to manage, right? You know, finance teams now see this world where it's like tomorrow. The cost could go three x the next day they could go down. You've got, you know, things spending up by the second. So there's a whole set of cross functional, and that's the majority of the work that are members do is really around. How do we get these cross functional teams working together? How do we get you know, each team up leveled on what they need, understand with cloud? Because not only is it, you know, highly variable, but it's highly decentralized now, and we're seeing, you know, cloud hit. These sort of material spend levels where you know, the big, big cloud spenders out there spending, you know, high nine figures in some cases you know, in cloud and it's this material for their for their businesses. >>And let's just let's be honest. Here is like Clouds, for the most part, don't really have a huge incentive in offering limits and so on. It's just, you know, like, hey, the more usage that the better And hopefully getting a group of practitioners in real figures. Well, holy put pressure to build better tools and services in this area. I think actually it is happening. I think Jared could correct me if wrong. I think AWS recently announced a feature where I think it's finally like quotas, you know, enabled, you know, you have introducing quotas now for and building limits at some level, which, you know, I think it's 2020 Thank you know, >>just to push back a little bit in support of our friends, you ask Google this company, you know, for a long time doing this work, we were worried that the cloud would be like, What are you doing? Are you trying to get our trying to minimize commitments and you know the dirty secret of this type of work? And I were just talking a bunch of practitioners today is that cloud spend never really goes down. When you do this work, you actually end up spending more because you know you're more comfortable with the efficiency that you're getting, and your CEO is like, let's move more workloads over. But let's accelerate. Let's let's do Maurin Cloud goes out more data centers. And so the cloud providers air actually largely incentivized to say, Yeah, we want people to be officially don't understand this And so it's been a great collaboration with those companies. As you said, you know, aws, Google, that you're certainly really focused in this area and ship more features and more data for you. It's >>really about getting smart. I mean, you know, they no, >>you could >>do it. I mean, remember the old browser days you could switch the default search engine through 10 menus. You could certainly find the way if you really wanted to dig in and make policy a simple abstraction layer feature, which is really a no brainer thing. So I think getting smarter is the right message. I want to get into the synergy Chris, between this this trend, because I think this points to, um kind of what actually happened here if you look at it at least from my perspective and correct me if I'm wrong. But you had jr had a community of practitioners who was sharing information. Sounds like open source. They're talking and sharing, you know? Hey, don't throw that switch. Do This is the best practice. Um, that's what open communities do. But now you're getting into software. You have to embed cost management into everything, just like security I mentioned earlier. So this trend, I think if you kind of connect the dots is gonna happen in other areas on this is really the synergy. Um, I getting that right with CNC >>f eso The way I see it is, and I dream of a future where developers, as they develop software, will be able to have some insight almost immediately off how much potential, you know, cost or impact. They'll have, you know, on maybe a new service or spinning up or potentially earlier in the development cycle saying, Hey, maybe you're not doing this in a way that is efficient. Maybe you something else. Just having that feedback loop. Ah lot. You know, closer to Deb time than you know a couple weeks out. Something crazy happens all of a sudden you notice, You know, based on you know, your phase or financial folks reaching out to you saying, Hey, what's going on here? This is a little bit insane. So I think what we'll see is, as you know, practitioners and you know, Jr spinoffs, foundation community, you know, get together share practices. A lot of them, you know, just as we saw on sense. Yeah, kind of build their own tools, models, abstractions. And, you know, they're starting to share these things. And once you start sharing these things, you end up with a you know, a dozen tools. Eventually, you know, sharing, you know, knowledge sharing, code sharing, you know, specifications. Sharing happens Eventually, things kind of, you know, become de facto tools and standards. And I think we'll see that, you know, transition in the thin ops community over the next 12 to 4 months. You know, very soon in my thing. I think that's kind of where I see things going, >>Jr. This really kind of also puts a riel, you know, spotlight and illustrates the whole developer. First cliche. I mean, it's really not a cliche. It's It's happening. Developers first, when you start getting into the calculations of our oi, which is the number one C level question is Hey, what's the are aware of this problem Project or I won't say cover your ass. But I mean, if someone kind of does a project that it breaks the bank or causes a, you know, financial problem, you know, someone gets pulled out to the back would shed. So, you know, here you're you're balancing both ends of the spectrum, you know, risk management on one side, and you've got return on investment on the other. Is that coming out from the conversation where you guys just in the early stages, I could almost imagine that this is a beautiful tailwind for you? These thes trends, >>Yeah. I mean, if you think about the work that we're doing in our practice you're doing, it's not about saving money. It's about making money because you actually want empower those engineers to be the innovation engines in the organization to deliver faster to ship faster. At the same time, they now can have, you know, tangible financial roo impacts on the business. So it's a new up leveling skill for them. But then it's also, I think, to Christmas point of, you know, people seeing this stuff more quickly. You know what the model looks like when it's really great is that engineers get near real time visibility into the impact of their change is on the business, and they can start to have conversations with the business or with their finance partners about Okay, you know, if you want me to move fast, I could move fast, But it's gonna cost this if you want me to optimize the cost. I could do that or I can optimize performance. And there's actually, you know, deeper are like conversation the candidate up. >>Now I know a lot of people who watch the Cube always share with me privately and Chris, you got great vision on this. We talked many times about it. We're learning a lot, and the developers are on the front lines and, you know, a lot of them don't have MBAs and, you know they're not in the business, but they can learn quick. If you can code, you can learn business. So, you know, I want you to take a minute Jr and share some, um, educational knowledge to developers were out there who have to sit in these meetings and have to say, Hey, I got to justify this project. Buy versus build. I need to learn all that in business school when I had to see s degree and got my MBA, so I kind of blended it together. But could you share what the community is doing and saying, How does that engineer sit in the meeting and defend or justify, or you some of the best practices what's coming out of the foundation? >>Yeah, I mean, and we're looking at first what a core principles that the whole organization used to line around. And then for each persona, like engineers, what they need to know. So I mean, first and foremost, it's It's about collaboration, you know, with their partners andan starting to get to that world where you're thinking about your use of cloud from a business value driver, right? Like, what is the impact of this? The critical part of that? Those early decentralization where you know, now you've got everybody basically taking ownership for their cloud usage. So for engineers, it's yes, we get that information in front of us quickly. But now we have a new efficiency metric. And engineers don't like inefficiency, right? They want to write fishing code. They wanna have efficient outcomes. Um, at the same time, those engineers need to now, you know, have ah, we call it, call it a common lexicon. Or for Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, folks. Ah, Babel fish that needs to be developed between these teams. So a lot of the conversations with engineers right now is in the foundation is okay. What What financial terms do I need to understand? To have meaningful conversations about Op X and Capex? And what I'm going to make a commitment to a cloud provider like a committed use discount, Google or reserved instance or savings Planet AWS. You know, Is it okay for me to make that? What? How does that impact our, you know, cost of capital. And then and then once I make that, how do I ensure that I could work with those teams to get that allocated and accounted? The right area is not just for charge back purposes, but also so that my teams can see my portion of the estate, right? And they were having the flip side of that conversation with all the finance folks of like, You need to understand how the variable cloud, you know, model works. And you need to understand what these things mean and how they impact the business. And then all that's coming together. And to the point of like, how we're working with C and C f you know, into best practices White papers, you know, training Siri's etcetera, sets of KP eyes and capabilities. Onda. All these problems have been around for years, and I wouldn't say they're solved. But the knowledge is out there were pulling it together. The new level that we're trying to talk with the NCF is okay. In the old world of Cloud, you had 1 to 1 use of a resource. You're running a thing on an instance in the new world, you're running in containers and that, you know, cluster may have lots of pods and name spaces, things inside of it that may be doing lots of different workloads, and you can no longer allocate. I've got this easy to instance and this storage to this thing it's now split up and very ephemeral. And it is a whole new layer of virtualization on top of virtual ization that we didn't have to deal with before. >>And you've got multiple cloud. I'll throw that in there, just make another dimension on it. Chris, tie this together cause this is nice energy to scale up what he's built with the community now, part of the Linux Foundation. This fits nicely into your vision, you know, perfectly. >>Yeah, no, 100% like, you know, so little foundation. You know, as you're well, well aware, is just a federation of open source foundations of groups working together to share knowledge. So it definitely fits in kind of the little foundation mission of, you know, building the largest share technology investment for, you know, humankind. So definitely good there with my kind of C and C f c T o hat, you know, on is, you know, I want to make sure that you know, you know my community and and, you know, the community of cloud native has access and, you know, knowledge about modern. You know, cloud financial management practices out there. If you look at some of the new and upcoming projects in ciencia things like, you know, you know, backstage, which came out of Spotify. They're starting to add functionality that, you know, you know, originally backstage kind of started out as this, you know, everyone builds their own service catalog to go catalog, and you know who owns what and, you know and all that goodness and developers used it. And eventually what happened is they started to add cost, you know, metrics to each of these services and so on. So it surfaces things a little bit closer, you know, a depth time. So my whole goal is to, you know, take some of these great, you know, practices and potential tools that were being built by this wonderful spinoffs community and trying to bring it into the project. You know, front inside of CNC F. So having more projects either exposed, you know, useful. You know, Finn, ops related metrics or, you know, be able to, you know, uh, you know, tool themselves to quickly be able to get useful metrics that could be used by thin ox practitioners out there. That's my kind of goal. And, you know, I just love seeing two communities, uh, come together to improve, improve the state of the world. >>It's just a great vision, and it's needed so and again. It's not about saving money. Certainly does that if you play it right, but it's about growth and people. You need better instrumentation. You need better data. You've got cloud scale. Why not do something there, right? >>Absolutely. It's just maturity after the day because, you know, a lot of engineers, you know, they just love this whole like, you know, rental model just uses many Resource is they want, you know, without even thinking about just basic, you know, metrics in terms of, you know, how many idle instances do I have out there and so, like, people just don't think about that. They think about getting the work done, getting the job done. And if they anything we do to kind of make them think a little bit earlier about costs and impact efficiency, charge back, you know, I think the better the world isn't Honestly, you know, I do see this to me. It's It's almost like, you know, with my hippie hat on. It's like Stephen Green or for the more efficient we are. You know, the better the world off cloud is coming. Can you grow? But we need to be more efficient and careful about the resource is that we use in sentencing >>and certainly with the pandemic, people are virtually you wanted mental health, too. I mean, if people gonna be pulling their hair out, worrying about dollars and cents at scale, I mean, people are gonna be freaking out and you're in meetings justifying why you did things. I mean, that's a time waster, right? I mean, you know, talking about wasting time. >>I have a lot of friends who, you know, run infrastructure at companies. And there's a lot of you know, some companies have been, you know, blessed during this, you know, crazy time with usage. But there is a kind of laser focused on understanding costs and so on and you not be. Do not believe how difficult it is sometimes even just to get, you know, reporting out of these systems, especially if you're using, you know, multiple clouds and multiple services across them. It's not. It's non trivial. And, you know, Jared could speak to this, But, you know, a lot of this world runs in like terrible spreadsheets, right and in versus kind of, you know, nice automated tools with potential, a p I. So there's a lot of this stuff. It's just done sadly in spreadsheets. >>Yeah, salute the flag toe. One standard to rally around us. We see this all the time Jr and emerging inflection points. No de facto kind of things develop. Kubernetes took that track. That was great. What's your take on what he just said? I mean, this is a critical path item for people from all around. >>Yeah, and it's It's really like becoming this bigger and bigger data problem is well, because if you look at the way the clouds are building, they're building per seconds and and down to the very fine grain detail, you know, or functions and and service. And that's amazing for being able to have accountability. But also you get people with at the end of the month of 300 gigabyte billing files, with hundreds of millions of rows and columns attached. So, you know, that's where we do see you companies come together. So yeah, it is a spreadsheet problem, but you can now no longer open your bill in a spreadsheet because it's too big. Eso you know, there's the native tools are doing a lot of work, you know, as you mentioned, you know, AWS and Azure Google shipping a lot. There's there's great, you know, management platforms out there. They're doing work in this area, you know, there's there's people trying to build their own open source the things like Chris was talking about as well. But really, at the end of the day like this, this is This is not a technology. Changes is sort of a cultural shift internally, and it's It's a lot like the like, you know, move from data center to cloud or like waterfall to Dev ops. It's It's a shift in how we're managing, you know, the finances of the money in the business and bringing these groups together. So it it takes time and it takes involvement. I'm also amazed I look like the job titles of the people who are plugged into the Phenoms Foundation and they range from like principal engineers to tech procurement. Thio you know, product leaders to C. T. O. S. And these people are now coming together in the classic to get a seat at the table right toe, Have these conversations and talk about not How do we reduce, you know, cost in the old eighties world. But how do we work together to be more quickly to innovate, to take advantage of these cognitive technologies so that we could be more competitive? Especially now >>it's automation. I mean, all these things are at play. It's about software. I mean, software defined operations is clearly the trend we've been covering. You guys been riding the wave cloud Native actually is so important in all these modern APS, and it applies to almost every aspect of stacks, so makes total sense. Great vision. Um, Chris props to you for that, Jr. Congratulations on a great community, Jerry. I'll give you the final word. Put a plug in for the folks watching on the fin ops Foundation where you're at. What are you looking to do? You adding people, What's your objectives? Take a minute to give the plug? >>Yeah, definitely. We were in open source community, which means we thrive on people contributing inputs. You know, we've got now almost 3000 practitioner members, which is up from 1500 just this this summer on You know, we're looking for those who have either an interesting need to plug into are checked advisory council to help define standards as part of this event, The cognitive gone we're launching Ah, white paper on kubernetes. Uh, and how to do confidential management for it, which was a collaborative effort of a few dozen of our practitioners, as well as our vendor members from VM Ware and Google and APP Thio and a bunch of others who have come together to basically defined how to do this. Well, and, you know, we're looking for folks to plug into that, you know, because at the end of the day, this is about everybody sort of up leveling their skills and knowledge and, you know, the knowledge is out there, nobody's head, and we're focused on how toe drive. Ah, you know, a central collection of that be the central community for it. You enable the people doing this work to get better their jobs and, you know, contribute more of their companies. So I invite you to join us. You know, if your practitioner ITT's Frito, get in there and plug into all the bits and there's great slack interaction channels where people are talking about kubernetes or pinups kubernetes or I need to be asked Google or where we want to go. So I hope you consider joining in the community and join the conversation. >>Thanks for doing that, Chris. Good vision. Thanks for being part of the segment. And, as always, C N C F. This is an enablement model. You throw out the soil, but the 1000 flowers bloom. You don't know what's going to come out of it. You know, new standards, new communities, new vendors, new companies, some entrepreneur Mike jump in this thing and say, Hey, I'm gonna build a better tool. >>Love it. >>You never know. Right? So thanks so much for you guys for coming in. Thanks for the insight. Appreciate. >>Thanks so much, John. >>Thank you for having us. >>Okay. I'm John Furry, the host of the Cube covering Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 2020 with virtual This year, we wish we could be there face to face, but it's cute. Virtual. Thanks for watching

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of Kubecon and CloudNativeCon, North America, 2020, virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage, virtual coverage of Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2020. We're not in person this year, normally we're there in person. We have to do remote because of the pandemic, but hey, it opens up more conversations. And this is theCUBE virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. And you'll see a lot of interviews. We've got some great guests, Talking to the leaders, the developers, the end users, as well as the vendors with the CNCF, we got two great guests, Priyanka Sharma, the General Manager of the CNCF, great to see you and Stephen Augustus OSS Engineer at VMware. He's also the KubeCon co-chair back on the cube. Thanks for coming on folks. I appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us. So, thanks for coming on, actually, remote and virtual. We're doing a lot of interviews, we're getting some perspectives, people are chatting in Slack. It's still got the hallway vibe feel, a lot of talks, a lot of action, keynotes happening, but I think the big story for me, and I would like to talk about, I want to get your perspective is this new working group that's out there. So I know there's some news around it. Could you take a minute to explain kind of what this is all about? >> Sure. I'll give a little bit of context for those who may have missed my keynote which... very bad. (Priyanka laughs) As I announced, I'm so proud to be working with the likes of Stephen Augustus here, and a bunch of other folks from different companies, different open source projects, et cetera, to bring inclusive naming to code. I think it's been a forever issue. Quite frankly. We've had many problematic terms in software out there. The most obvious one being master-slave. That really shouldn't be there. That have no place in an inclusive world, inclusive software, inclusive community with the help of amazing people like Stephen, folks from IBM, Red Hat, and many, many others. We came together because while there's a lot of positive enthusiasm and excitement for people to make the changes that are necessary to make the community welcome for all, there's a lot of different work streams happening. And we really wanted to make sure there is a centralized place for guidelines and discussion for everybody in a very non...pan-organizational kind of way. And so that's the working group that John is talking about. With that said, Stephen, I think you can do the best justice to speak to the overall initiative. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's to Priyanka's point, there are lots of people who are interested in this work and again, lots of work where this is already happening, which is very exciting to say, but as any good engineer, I think that's it's important to not duplicate your work. It's important to recognize the efforts that are happening elsewhere and work towards bringing people together. So part of this is providing, being able to provide a forum for discussion for a variety of companies, for a variety of associations that... and foundations that are involved in inclusive naming efforts. And then to also provide a framework for walking people through how we evaluate language and how we make these kinds of changes. As an example, for Kubernetes, we started off the Kubernetes working group naming and the hope for the working group naming was that it was going to evolve into hopefully an effort like this, where we could bring a lot of people on and not just talk about Kubernetes. So since we formed that back in, I want to say, June-ish, we've done some work on about of providing a language evaluation framework, providing templates for recommendations, providing a workflow for moving from just a suggestion into kind of actuating those ideas right and removing that language where it gets tricky and code is thinking about, thinking about, say a Kubernetes API. And in fact that we have API deprecation policies. And that's something that we have to if offensive language is in one of our APIs, we have to work through our deprecation policy to get that done. So lots of moving parts, I'm very excited about the overall effort. >> Yeah, I mean, your mind can explode if you just think about all the complications involved, but I think this is super important. I think the world has voted on this, I think it's pretty obvious and Priyanka, you hit some of the key top-line points, inclusive software. This is kind of the high order bit, but when you get down to it, it's hard as hell to do, because if you want to get ne new namings and/or changing namings accepted by the community and code owners, you're dealing with two things, a polarizing environment around the world today, and two, the hassles involved, which includes duplicate efforts. So you've got kind of a juggling act going on between two forces. So it's a hard problem. So how are you tackling this? Because it's certainly the right thing to do. There's no debate there. How do you make it happen? How do you go in without kind of blowing things up, if you will? And do it in a way that's elegant and clean and accept it. 'Cause that's the... end of the day, it's acceptance and putting it code owners. >> Absolutely. I think so, as you said, we live in a polarizing environment right now. Most of us here though know that this is the right thing to do. Team CloudNative is for everyone. And that is the biggest takeaway I hope people get from our work in this initiative. Open source belongs to everybody and it was built for the problems of today. That's why I've been working on this. Now, when it goes into actual execution, as you said, there are many moving parts, Stephen and the Kubernetes working group, is our shining example and a really good blueprint for many folks to utilize. In addition to that, we have to bring in diverse organizations. It's not just open source projects. It's not just companies. It's also standards organizations. It's also folks who think about language in books, who have literally done PhDs in this subject. And then there are folks who are really struggling through making the changes today and tomorrow and giving them hope and excitement. So that at the end of this journey, not only do you know you've done the right thing, but you'd be recognized for it. And more people will be encouraged by your own experience. So we and the LF have been thinking at it from a holistic perspective, let's bring in the standards bodies, let's bring in the vendors, let's bring in the open source projects, give them guidelines and blueprints that we are lucky that our projects are able to generate, combine it with learnings from other people, because many people are doing great work so that there is one cohesive place where people can go and learn from each other. Eventually, what we hope to do is also have like a recognition program so that it's like, hey, this open source project did this. They are now certified X or there's like an awards program. They're still figuring that piece out, but more to come on that space. That's my part. But Stephen can tell you about all the heavy lifting that they've been doing. >> Before we get to Steve, I just want to say congratulations to you. That's great leadership. And I think you're taking a pragmatic approach and you putting the stake in the ground. And that's the number one thing, and I want to take my hat off to you guys and Priyanka, thank you for that leadership. All right, Stephen, let's talk about how this gets done because you guys open sources is what it's all about is about the people, it's about building on the successes of others, standing on the shoulders of others, you guys are used to sitting in rooms now virtually and squabbling over things like, code reviews and you got governing bodies. This is not a new thing in collaboration. So this is also a collaboration test. What are you seeing as the playbook to get this going? Can you share your insights into what the Kubernetes group's doing and how you see this. What are the few first few steps you see happening? So people can either understand it, understand the context and get involved? >> So I think it comes down to a lot of it is scope, right? So as a new contributor, as a current contributor, maybe you are one of those language experts, that is interested in getting involved as a co-chair myself for SIG Release. A lot of the things that we do, we have to consider scope. If we make this change, how is it affecting an end user? And maybe you work in contributor experience. Maybe you work in release, maybe you work in architecture. But you may not have the entire scope that you need to make a change. So I think that first it's amazing to see all of the thought that has gone through making certain changes, like discussing master and slave, discussing how we name control plane members, doing the... having the discussion around a whitelist and blacklist. What's hard about it is, is when people start making those changes. We've already seen several instances of an invigorated contributor, and maybe the new contributor coming in and starting to kind of like search and replace words. And it... I wish it was that simple, it's a discussion that has to be heard, you need buy-in from the code owners, if it's an API that you're touching, it's a conversation that you need to have with the SIG Architecture, as well as say SIG Docs. If it's something that's happening in Release, then it's a easier 'cause you can come and talk to me, but, overall I think it's getting people to the point where they can clearly understand how a change affects the community. So we kind of in this language evaluation framework, we have this idea of like first, second and third order concerns. And as you go through those concerns, there are like diminishing impacts of potential harm that a piece of language might be causing to people. So first order concerns are the ones that we want to eliminate immediately. And the ones that we commonly hear this discussion framed around. So master-slave and whitelist, blacklist. So those are ones that we know that are kind of like on the track to be removed. The next portion of that it's kind of like understanding what it means to provide a recommendation and who actually approves the recommendation. Because this group is, we have several language aficionados in this group, but we are by now means experts. And we also want to make sure that we do not make decisions entirely for the community. So, discussing that workflow from a turning a recommendation into actuating a solution for that is something that we would also do with the steering committee. So Kubernetes kind of like top governing body. Making sure that the decision is made from the top level and kind of filtered out to all of the places where people may own code or documentation around it is I think is really the biggest thing. And having a framework to make it easy to make, do those evaluations, is what we've been craving and now have. >> Well, congratulations. That's awesome. I think it's always... it's easier said than done. I mean, it's a system when you have systems and code, it's like, there's always consequences in systems architecture, you know that you do in large scales OSS. You guys know what that means. And I think the low hanging fruit, obviously master, slave, blacklist, whitelist, that's just got to get done. I mean, to me, if that just doesn't get done, that's just like a stake in the ground that must happen. But I think this idea of it takes a village, kind of is a play here. People just buy into it. That so it's a little bit of a PR thing going on too, for get buy-in, this is again a classic, getting people on board, Priyanka, isn't it? It's the obvious and then there's like, okay, let's just do this. And then what's the framework? What's the process? What's the scope? >> Yeah, absolutely agree. And many people are midway through the journey. That's one of the big challenges. Some people are on different phases of the journey, and that was one of the big reasons we started this working group, because we want to be able to provide a place of conversation for people at different stages. So we get align now rather than a year later, where everybody has their own terms as replacements and nothing works. And maybe the downstream projects that are affected, like who knows, right? It can go pretty bad. And it's very complex and it's large-scale opensource or coasters, anywhere, large software. And so because team CloudNative belongs to everyone because open source belongs to everyone. We got up, get people on the same page. For those who are eager to learn more, as I said in my keynote, please do join the two sessions that we have planned. One is going to happen, which is about inclusive naming in general, it's an hour and a half session happening on Thursday. I'm pretty sure. And there we will talk about all the various artists who are involved. Everybody will have a seat at the table and we'll have documentation and a presentation to share on how we recommend the all move, move together as an ecosystem, and then second is a presentation by Celeste in the Kubernetes working group about how Kubernetes specifically has done naming. And I feel like Stephen, you and your peers have done such amazing work that many can benefit from it. >> Well, I think engineers, you got two things going to work in for you, which is one, it's a mission. And that's... There's certainly societal benefits for this code, code is for the people. Love that, that's always been the marching orders, but also engineers are efficient. If you have duplicate efforts. I mean, it's like you think about people just doing it on their own, why not do it now, do it together, more efficient, fixing bugs over stuff, you could have solved now. I mean, this is a huge issue. So totally believe it. I know we got to go, but I want to get the news and Priyanka, you guys had some new stuff coming out from the CNCF, new things, survey, certifications, all kinds of new reports. Give us the quick highlights on the news. >> Yes, absolutely. So much news. So many talking points. Well, and that's a good thing, why? Because the CloudNative Ecosystem is thriving. There is so many people doing so much awesome stuff that I have a lot to share with you. And what does that tell us about our spirit? It tells you about the spirit of resilience. You heard about that briefly in the conversation we just had with Stephen about our working group to align various parties and initiatives together, to bring inclusive naming to code. It's about resilience because we did not get demoralized. We did not say, "oh, it's a pandemic. I can't meet anyone. So this isn't happening." No, we kept going. And that is happening in inclusive naming that is happening in the CloudNative series we're doing, that's happening in the new members that are joining, as you may have seen Volcano Engine just joined as platinum member and that's super exciting. They come from China. They're part of the larger organization that builds Tik Tok, which is pretty cool as a frequent bruiser I can say that, in addition, on a more serious note, security is really key and as I was talking to someone just minutes ago, security is not something that's a fad. Security is something that as we keep innovating, as cloud native keeps being the ground zero, for all future innovation, it keeps evolving. The problems keep getting more complex and we have to keep solving them. So in that spirit, we in CNCF see it as our job, our duty, to enable the ecosystem to be better conversant in the security needs of our code. So to that end, we are launching the CKS program, which is a certification for our Kubernetes security specialist. And it's been in the works for awhile as many of you may know, and today we are able to accept registrations. So that's a really exciting piece of news, I recommend you go ahead and do that as part of the KubeCon registration folks have a discount to get started, and I think they should do it now because as I said, the security problems keep getting worse, keep getting more complicated. And this is a great baseline for folks to start when they are thinking about this. it's also a great boon for any company out there, whether they're end users, vendors, it's all sometimes a blurry line between the two, which is all healthy. Everybody needs developers who are security conversant I would say, and this certification help you helps you achieve that. So send all of your people to go take it. So that's sort of the announcements. Then other things I would like to share are as you go, sorry, were you saying something? >> No. Go ahead. >> No, as you know, we talked about the whole thing of team CloudNative is for everyone. Open source is for everyone And I'm really proud that CNCF has offered over 1000 diversity scholarships since 2016 to traditionally under-representing our marginalized groups. And I think that is so nice, and, but just the very, very beginning. As we grow into 2021, you will see more and more of these initiatives. Every member I talked to was so excited that we put our money where our mouth is, and we support people with scholarships, mentorships, and this is only going to grow. And it just so like at almost 17%, the CNCF mentors in our program are women. So for folks who are looking for that inspiration, for folks who want to see someone who looks like them in these places, they have more diverse people to look up to. And so overall, I think our DEI focus is something I'm very proud of and something you may hear about in other news items. And then finally, I would like to say is that CloudNative continues to grow. The cloud native wave is strong. The 2.0 for team CloudNative is going very well. For the CloudNative annual survey, 2020, we found an astonishing number of places where CloudNative technologies are in production. You heard some stories that I told in my keynote of people using multiple CNCF projects together. And these are amazing and users who have this running in production. So our ecosystem has matured. And today I can tell you that Kubernetes is used in production, by at about 83% of the places out there. And this is up by 5% from 78% last year. And just so much strength in this ecosystem. I mean, now at 92% of people are using containers. So at this point we are ubiquitous. And as you've heard from us in various times, our 70 plus project portfolio shows that we are the ground zero of innovation in cloud native. So if you asked me to summarize the news, it's number one, team CloudNative and open source is for everyone. Number two, we take pride in our diversity and over 1000 scholarships have been given out since 2016 to recipients from underrepresented groups. Number three, this is the home base for innovation with 83% of folks using Kubernetes in production and 70 plus projects that deliver a wide variety of support to enterprises as they modernize their software and utilize containers. >> Awesome. That was a great summary. First of all, you're a great host. You should be hosting theCUBE with us. Great keynote, love the virtual events that you guys have been doing, love the innovation. I think I would just say just from my perspective and being from there from the beginning is it's always been inclusive and the experience of the events and the community have been top-notch. People squabble, people talk, people have conversations, but at the end of the day, it is a great community and it's fun, memorable, and people are accepting, it's a great job. Stephen, good job as co-chair this year. Well done. Congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Take it easy. >> Okay, this is theCUBE virtual, we wish we were there in person, but we're not, we're remote. This is the virtual Cube. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back I'm Stu Miniman. And this is theCUBE coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020, the Europe virtual edition. Happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Priyanka Sharma. She's the general manager of the CNCF. Priyanka, thanks so much for joining us. Great to see you. And we all get to be together even while we're apart. >> That's absolutely right. Thank you so much for having me Stu and great energy in the interwebs today with my keynote and everybody engaging and attending KubeCon. So, very happy to be here. >> All right, so I want to dig into your keynote a little bit. I had a bunch of key themes, a lot of pieces, and of course, community at the heart of it. When I spoke with you when you first took the job, of course, you've got strong background, you know this community really well. We've loved covering it for the last five years, but you talked about the foundation of doers and how that's powering the end user driven open tour. So talk to us a little bit about that, how is this community different from everything else. You know, open source always is community, but this feels a little bit special. >> Well, I'm glad to hear you say that, it is special. Yes, so when you think about the Cloud Native Ecosystem, right? There's so many people who've come together to create this amazing field that we all get to create. The awesome technology that people use to be part of this whole technology creation and deployment process. Those people are the end users first and foremost, they utilize the technology every day. And as time has grown, as time has gone by, they have played a bigger and bigger role. Over time they've become very sophisticated, they're contributing their own projects such as you know, I mean, you all know Envoy and a Jaeger came from Lyft and Uber respectively, but there's many more like Spotify and Wayfair, the furniture company. They have all submitted projects for the sandbox. So there was a lot of momentum, but not only are they creating their own technologies very needed and donating them. They're becoming the guider. They're becoming the guidance for the project that exists. They're giving feedback, they're sharing requirements. It's a very collaborative process and that's what is end-user-driven open source. Now this end user-driven-open source cannot happen by one contributor alone by one maintainer or alone by one company. No, it takes a lot of people. I mean, CNCF, as you know, has invested in its global community since day one. That's why we have the KubeCon EU, we have China events, we have North America. And just the other day I was speaking on a virtual Brazil event. There's just the geographic diversity is amazing. And by being able to reach out to a very large ecosystem and by especially having a formal role for end users, by having an end user member program with their own special interest groups and working groups, we've created a safe space where there is a neutral IP zone, open governance, and also a clear directive and shared partnership with the end users. So that ends up being a large group of people who are all doers, everybody's collaboration matters, and together they create end user-driven-open source. >> Well, Priyanka, I'm not sure that that most people understand really the full charter of what the CNCF does. So maybe you could talk a little bit about, obviously there's all the projects involved. You just brought up some of the end users and how you get engaged. There's also help along career development, when you talk to the individual developers and participants. So help us understand beyond the big events that we gather people at any given time with the smaller events, just, you know, what the CNCF its charter as these days. >> Absolutely, so as some of you know, the CNCF stands for Cloud Native Computing Foundation. And our objective is to host and proliferate technologies that support development, infrastructure development that is cloud native. Now what does cloud native mean, cloud native is when you develop, when you utilize cloud computing, which is the big clouds you must have heard of such as, Alibaba cloud, AWS, Google cloud platform, Azure, IBM, all these hyperscalers. They provide these offerings by which you don't need to have your own server farm, and you can buy compute from them and run your applications on that. When you do that, the way you develop software changes, it should change in order to maximize the value you get. So you started developing with micro services, containerization happens once that happens you need to orchestrate the containers, which is where Kubernetes our founding project comes in. And then you go from there because you have different complexities and observability, you have different complexities and storage and all the cloud native tech comes together to support you in that journey. So from a technology perspective that's what we do. As we have been so fortunate to develop this large ecosystem that so many people joining in of all kinds, we believe it is part of our responsibility to support this community in skill development and always like knowledge sharing. So knowledge sharing community empowers education. And that's how we talked about the events, right? Like KubeCon et cetera. But also these days, we are focusing a lot on our programs with the certifications we offer such as a CKA, which stands for a Certified Kubernetes Admin and CKAD, which stands for Certified Kubernetes Application Developer. To date, 15,000 plus people have taken these certifications successfully. So we have more and more people joining in these ranks. And we are here to support people as they build their careers, as they get more knowledgeable on cloud native, from in formal ways, such as training edX and in informal ways, such as KubeCon and the Meetups and the Webinars, you name it, and we're here for you. >> Well, you used a word that I want to touch on, responsibility, obviously in 2020, there's a lot going on Priyanka. So first of all, you talk about the global pandemic. Some of my favorite interviews I've done for this shows and others talking about how open source and communities are contributing to it. One of the interviews I have coming up for the KubeCon show is out of the Pronto area with how's my flattening, which uses data and visualization, really phenomenal to see how, you know, Kubernetes and collaboration allowed people to rally fast and share data and get information from the right people. The other piece is social justice. You announced a new working group for racial terminology, talk about, how's the CNCF dealing with, all the changes and all the things that are happening in 2020. And how are you helping the community get engaged and participate? >> Absolutely. 2020s is a very unique year. It's had very unique challenges. We've all been through it out together as a global community. So in that way, it has brought us all together, but the fissures and cracks that maybe were overlooked before have gotten deeper this year. And we are committed to bringing the open source cloud native way to help support this full global push to overcome 2020 as a year. (laughs) So part of that as you said, we have a working group to eradicate racially charged tech, sorry, I am really not speaking well to that. So part of our initiatives is a working group to eradicate racially charged terminology from code we're working on it, not just on the CNCF level, but on the entire Linux foundation level, by bringing together various folks, such as companies projects, regardless of where they stand, they don't need to be an LF project or a CNCF project, but we're sharing best practices on What should be the terminology we agree upon? What is the change management look like? And soon we want to really encourage the people who are making these positive steps with and enablement and incentive programs, such as prizes, et cetera. So I'm very committed to this. I think anyone and everyone has a home in open source. This cannot be, you know, the take ground of one type of person or one type of community. And we're going to do our very best to welcome each and every one. This world of technology has been built by the blood, sweat, and tears off many people, and we honor them all. And we also open our arms to more and more of you, no matter how few of people from your ecosystem or community you see in open source, join in, we welcome you.. we are here for you and this working group and this initiative hopes to voice exactly just that. >> Well, yeah, the KubeCons absolutely. I can speak from the event I've gone to, you know, strong diversity. We've really appreciated being able to hear those voices. When you talk about the collaboration, the community activity, we'd love when we can help support those from our team's standpoint, when we can, we want to be able to help those nonprofits, help those communities get their messages and do their call to actions. All right, Priyanka so much to cover. This week when I look at all the breakouts, when I look at the interviews and the technologies, there's a lot of emerging themes also in edge computing has been something we've been talking about for the last year or two, of course, IOT, DevSecOps, what are some of the hot technologies that you're seeing and making sure that the show covers. >> Well, you send them all. (laughs) No, but these are the key themes. Yes, absolutely. As you know, devices are proliferating across the globe. So many people have cell phones, with the coming of 5G things will be even more rocket ship. And these folks need to go cloud native to support development as this change happens, and Kubernetes and CNCF is here to support. We have projects such as KubeEdge. We have k3s from Rancher and the sandbox, all these are meant for edge deployment. So there's that focus that we have. There's always going to be DevSecOps. The minute there is this complexity, the minute there's this growth, new security vulnerabilities, pop up, new interfaces become exposed. And so we have to be on a constant watch. So DevSecOps is a theme that we are going to see a lot of innovation and development in. For anyone who may not be familiar with DevSecOps, DevSecOps does for security, what DevOps did for operations, which is shifted left into the application developers workflow, so that things have got faster so that there is a better collaboration between security teams and application development team. So these are absolutely trans, I think a trend we briefly touched upon is, end-user-driven open source. I think the voice of end users is going to grow bigger and more louder and just that much more critical. The ship has left the dock. And now it's just going to gain steam and gain steam. I think we're going to see more technology contributions from them. We're going to see much more utilization of cloud native from them. And we also will get lots of feedback and advice from them. And there'll be interwoven into the fabric of cloud native in a way like never before. >> Yeah, Priyanka, you've known this community, but now you're very steeped into it. You had to work with a lot of people. I'm curious, does anything, especially from those end users, you know, a big focus of what you've been talking about. Absolutely, it's so important that they not just use the technology, but are participate in it. It's been one of those big waves we've been watching in the open source community for a number of years. So any insight you can give us as to why it is so important to those end users, what is encouraging them, not just to, use these projects, but, you know, assigned people and sponsor events and have much deeper integration with this community. >> They don't integrate with this community. They are part of this community. That's one key thing to remember. I would say, when we all, like, I mean, CNCF is relatively young, it started end of 2015. I started working on a project in it in 2016. And back then we were talking about things like, what are microservices? How to do a lift and shift to the cloud, or what are containers, things like that, right? And there was maybe a bit of a gap in the knowledge that people had to acquire to get good at deploying containers, that's using microservices, et cetera, et cetera. Now, in the last four years, huge leaps have been made by an users just because they were in the trenches, they were doing the work, right? So now their knowledge level has gone really up. And they've also started like knowing where the gaps are, what they need, because they're doing the building, they're the doers here. And so in that environment, it is a natural thing that they will have the best sense of where things should go next. They will have the best sense of what their own requirements are. And so it's an evolution of the end user community. It's an evolution of the doers. And I think that's why this trend is going to continue. And I would like to take like, not a credit, but I would say a tiny shoutout to the CNCF ecosystem program, which is run by Cheryl on my team. She's done a phenomenal job having been a developer herself to bring people and create safe spaces where the enhancers or the vendors are not like necessarily breathing down their neck and they can discuss amongst each other, the topics that matter. And I think that's gone a really long way. >> Yeah. There's, Cheryl's been doing some great work. I know I'm having a conversation with Liz Rice to talk about some of the new pooling, helping customers understand. It's such a broad ecosystem out there that, you know, we didn't even touch on. We're going to talk in many of the other interviews I have Priyanka. There's so many projects, new ways for sandbox and incubation and everything like that. It is definitely a challenge for everybody to look at this space. Want to give you the final word though. What do you want people to have as their takeaway from the event this time? >> Absolutely. Hi everybody. I am so happy. You all took the time and engaged with the community you joined in and attended KubeCon EU virtual, stay with us, partnering with us, come to our events, give us feedback, share ideas. We're all a foundation of doers. We're all team cloud native, and we're in this together. We will go through 2020, we'll come out strong. And this is just the beginning. >> Well, Priyanka, thank you so much. We love the partnership with the CNCF and definitely happy to be able to participate in the event again this year. >> Absolutely. Thank you so much Stu. >> All right, and stay tuned. Lots of coverage here from KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020 Europe the virtual edition. I'm Stu Minimam. And thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio. I'm happy to welcome to the program someone we've known for many years, but a first time on the program. Priyanka Sharma, thank you so much for joining us. >> Hi, Stu. Thank you so much for having me. >> All right, and Priyanka, let's not bury the lead or anything. The reason we're talking to you is the news. You've got a new job, but in an area that you know really well. So we've known you through the cloud native communities for a number of years. We see you at the shows. We see you online. So happy to share with our community you are now the general manager of the CNCF, so congratulations so much on the job. >> Thank you so much. I am so honored to have this opportunity, and I can't wait to work even more closely with the cloud native community than I have already. I mean, as you said, I've been involved for a long time. I actually just saw on my LinkedIn today that 2016 was when my conversation within the CNCF started. I was then working on the OpenTracing Project, which was the third project to join the foundation, and CNCF had started in 2015, so it was all very new. We were in conversations, and it was just such an exciting time, and that just kept getting bigger and bigger, and then with GitLab I served, I actually still serve, until the 31st, on the board. And now this, so I'm very, very excited. >> Yeah, well right. So you're a board member of the CNCF, but Priyanka, if you go back even further, we look at how did CNCF start. It was all around Kubernetes. Where did Kubernetes come from? It came from Google, and when I dug back far enough into your CV I found Google on there, too. So maybe just give us a little bit of your career arc, and what you're involved with for people that don't know you from all these communities and events. >> Sure, absolutely. So my career started at Google in Mountain View, and I was on the business side of things. I worked with AdSense products, and around that same time I had a bit of the entrepreneurial bite, so the bug bit me, and I first joined a startup that was acquired by GoDaddy later on, and then I went off on my own. That was a very interesting time for me, because that was when I truly learned about the power of opensource. One of the products that me and my co-founder were building was an opensource time tracker, and I just saw the momentum on these communities, and that's when the dev tools love started. And then I got involved with Heavybit Industries, which is an accelerator for dev tools. There I met so many companies that were either in the cloud space, or just general other kinds of dev tools, advised a few, ended up joining LightStep, where the founders, them and a few community members were the creators of the OpenTracing standard. Got heavily, heavily involved in that project, jumped into cloud native with that, was a project contributor, organizer, educator, documentarian, all kinds of things, right, for two-plus years, and then GitLab with the board membership, and that's how I saw, actually, the governance side. Until then it had all been the community, the education, that aspect, and then I understood how Chris and Dan had built this amazing foundation that's done so much from the governance perspective. So it's been a long journey and it all feels that it's been coming towards in this awesome new direction. >> Well, yeah. Congratulations to you, and right, CNCF, in their press release I see Dan talked about you've been a speaker, you've been a governing board member, you participate in this, and you're going to help with that next phase, and you teased out a little bit, there's a lot of constituencies in the CNCF. There's a large user participation. We always love talking at KubeCon about the people not only just using the technology, but contributing back, the role of opensource, the large vendor ecosystem, a lot there. So give us your thought as to kind of where the CNCF is today, and where it needs to continue and go in the future. >> Absolutely. So in my opinion the CNCF is a breakout organization. I mean, we're approaching 600 members, of which 142 are end users. So with that number the CNCF is actually the largest, has the largest end user community of all opensource foundations. So tremendous progress has been made, especially from those days back in 2016 when we were the third project being considered. So leaps and bounds, so impressive. And I think... If you think about what's the end user storyline right now, so the CNCF did a survey last year, and so 84% of the people surveyed were using containers in production, and 78% were using Kubernetes in production. Amazing numbers, especially since both are up by about 15, 20% year over year. So this move towards devops, towards cloud native, towards Kubernetes is happening and happening really strong. The project has truly established itself. Kubernetes has won, in my opinion, and that's really good. I think now when it comes to the second wave, it is my perspective that the end user communities and the... Just the momentum that we have right now, we need to build and grow it. We need deeper developer engagement, because if you think about it, there's not just one graduated project in CNCF. There are 10. So Kubernetes being one of them, but there's Prometheus, there's Envoy, Jaeger, et cetera, et cetera. So we have amazing technologies that are all gaining adoption. Being graduated means that they have fast security audits, they have diverse contributors, they have safe, good governance, so as an end user you can feel very secure adopting them, and so we have so much to do to expand on the knowledge of those projects. We have so much to make software just better every day, so that's my one vector in my opinion. The second vector, I would say it has been more opportunistic. As you know, we are all living in a very unprecedented time with a global pandemic. Many of us are sheltering in place. Many are... Generally, life is changed. You are in media. You know this much better than me, I'm sure, that the number of, the amount of digital consumption has just skyrocketed. People are reading that many more articles. I'm watching that many more memes and jokes online, right? And what that means is that more and more companies are reaching that crazy web scale that started this whole cloud native and devops space in the first time, first place with Google and Netflix being D-to-C companies just building out what eventually became cloud native, SRE, that kind of stuff. So in general, online consumption's higher, so more and more companies need to be cloud native to support that kind of traffic. Secondly, even for folks that are not creating content, just a lot of the workflows have to move online. More people will do online banking. More people will do ecommerce. It's just the shift is happening, and for that we, as the foundation, need to be ready to support the end users with education, enablement, certifications, training programs, just to get them across that chasm into a new, even more online-focused reality. >> Yeah, and I say, Priyanka, that tees up one of the ways that most people are familiar with the CNCF is through the event. So KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, really the signature event. Tremendous growth over the last few years. You actually had involvement in a virtual event, the Cloud Native Summit recently. For KubeCon-- >> Yes. >> The European show is announced virtual. We know that there's still some uncertainty when it comes to the North America show. Supposed to be in my backyard here in Boston, so we'd love for it to happen. If it happens-- >> Of course. >> If not, we'll be there virtually or not. Give us a little bit your experience with the Cloud Native Summit, and what's your thinking today? We understand, as you said, a lot of uncertainty as to what goes on. Absolutely, even when physical events come back in the future, we expect this hybrid model to be with us for a long time. >> I definitely hear that. Completely agree that everything is uncertain and things have changed very rapidly for our world, particularly when it comes to events. We're lucky at the CNCF to be working with the LF Events team, which is just best in class, and we are working very hard every day, them, doing a lot of the lion's share of the work of building the best experience we can for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon EU, which, as you said, went virtual. I'm really looking forward to it because what I learned from the Cloud Native Summit Online, which was the event you mentioned that I had hosted in April, is that people are hungry to just engage, to see each other, to communicate however they can in this current time. Today I don't think the technology's at a point where physical events can be overshadowed by virtual, so there's still something very special about seeing someone face-to-face, having a coffee, and having that banter, conversations. But at the same time there are some benefits to online. So as an example, with the Cloud Native Summit, really, it was just me and a few community folks who were sad we didn't get to go to Amsterdam, so we're like, "Let's just get together in a group, "have some fun, talk to some maintainers," that kind of thing. I expected a few hundred, max. Thousands of people showed up, and that was just mind blowing because I was like, "Wait, what?" (chuckling) But it was so awesome because not only were there a lot of people, there were people from just about every part of the globe. So normally you have US, Europe, that kind of focus, and there's the Asia-PAC events that cater to that, but here in that one event where, by the way, we were talking to each other in realtime, there were folks from Asia-PAC, there were folks from Americas, EU, also the African continent, so geo meant nothing anymore. And that was very awesome. People from these different parts of the world were talking, engaging, learning, all at the same time, and I think with over 20,000 people expected at KubeCon EU, with it being virtual, we'll see something similar, and I think that's a big opportunity for us going forward. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. There are some new opportunities, some new challenges. I think back to way back in January I got to attend the GitLab event, and you look at GitLab, a fully remote company, but talking about the benefits of still getting together and doing things online. You think of the developer communities, they're used to working remote and working across different timezones, but there is that need to be able to get together and collaborate, and so we've got some opportunities, we've got some challenges when remote, so I guess, yeah, Priyanka. Give me the final word, things you want to look forward to, things we should be expecting from you and the CNCF team going forward. I guess I'll mention for our audience, I guess, Dan Kohn staying part of Linux Foundation, doing some healthcare things, will still stay a little involved, and Chris Aniszczyk, who's the CTO, still the CTO. I just saw him. Did a great panel for DockerCon with Kelsey Hightower, Michelle Noorali, and Sean Connelly, and all people we know that-- >> Right. >> Often are speaking at KubeCon, too. So many of the faces staying the same. I'm not expecting a big change, but what should we expect going forward? >> That's absolutely correct, Stu. No big changes. My first big priority as I join is, I mean, as you know, coming with the community background, with all this work that we've put into education and learning from each other, my number one goal is going to be to listen and learn in a very diverse set of personas that are part of this whole community. I mean, there's the board, there is the technical oversight committee, there is the project maintainers, there's the contributors, there are the end users, potential developers who could be contributors. There's just so many different types of people all united in our interest and desire to learn more about cloud native. So my number one priority is going to listen and learn, and as I get more and more up to speed I'm very lucky that Chris Aniszczyk, who has built this with Dan, is staying on and is going to be advising me, guiding me, and working with me. Dan as well is actually going to be around to help advise me and also work on some key initiatives, in addition to his big, new thing with public health and the Linux Foundation. You never expect anything average with Dan, so it's going to be amazing. He's done so much for this foundation and brought it to this point, which in my mind, I mean, it's stupendous the amount of work that's happened. It's so cool. So I'm really looking forward to building on this amazing foundation created by Dan and Chris under Jim. I think that what they have done by not only providing a neutral IP zone where people can contribute and use projects safely, they've also created an ecosystem where there is events, there is educational activity, projects can get documentation support, VR support. It's a very holistic view, and that's something, in my opinion, new, at least in the way it's done. So I just want to build upon that, and I think the end user communities will keep growing, will keep educating, will keep working together, and this is a team effort that we are all in together. >> Well, Priyanka, congratulations again. We know your community background and strong community at the CNCF. Looking forward to seeing that both in the virtual events in the near term and back when we have physical events again in the future, so thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right. Be sure to check out thecube.net. You'll see all the previous events we've done with the CNCF, as well as, as mentioned, we will be helping keep cloud native connected at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, the virtual event in August, as well as the North American event later in the year. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (smooth music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2019 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're in Barcelona, Spain and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage and this is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for the two live days of coverage is Mr. Cory Quinn. And joining us was on the main stage yesterday, is Cheryl Hung who is the Director of Ecosystems at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, or the acronym CNCF. Cheryl, welcome back to the program, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, I always have a great time with theCUBE. >> So, first of all 7700 people here, one of the things that strikes me is we go to a lot of shows. We even do a decent amount of international shows. The community here is definitely global, and it's not, sometimes it's the same traveling pack, some person's like, "Well not quite as many people here "as were in Seattle." I'm like, well this isn't just the contributors all going and some of their friends and family. We've had on our program, thanks to the CNCF, and for some of the ecosystem, many of the customers here in Europe doing things, when we talk to people involved, it is obvious that it is a global community and it definitely shows here at the event, so great job on that. >> It's something that the CNCF really cares about because it's not just about one country or small set of countries, this is actually a global movement. There are businesses all over the globe that are in the middle of this transformational moment, so it's just really exciting to see it. I mean, I think of myself as being pretty involved with the Cloud Native community, but as I'm walking around the sponsor booths here today, there's a good 40-50% that I'm just not familiar with and that's quite surprising to me. I would've thought I'd knew almost all the companies around here, but it's always really fun to see the new companies coming in. >> Okay, so let's talk for a second about the diversity inclusion. One of the things is bringing in people that might not have been able to come on their own. Can you talk a little bit about that effort? And you've got some connection with that yourself. >> Yeah, yeah, so I care a lot about diversity in tech, and women in tech more specifically. One of the things that, I feel like this community has a lot of very visible women, so when I actually looked at the number of contributors by men and women, I was really shocked to find out it was 3%. It's kind of disappointing when you think about it. >> And what you're saying is it's 3% of all the contributors to all the projects in the CNCF. >> Exactly. If you look at the 36 projects, you look at the number of the people who've made issues, commits, comments, pull requests, it's 3% women and I think the CNCF has put a lot of effort into the, for example, the diversity scholarships, so bringing more than 300 people from under-represented groups to KubeCon, including 56 here in Barcelona, and it has a personal meaning to me because I really got my start through that diversity scholarship to KubeCon Berlin two years ago and when I first came to KubeCon Berlin, I knew nobody. But just that little first step can go a long way into getting people into feeling like they're part of the community and they have something valuable to give back. And then, once you're in, you're hooked on it and yeah, then it's a lot of fun. >> It's been said fairly frequently that talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. As you take a look at the diversity inclusion efforts that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation is embarking on, how do you, what do you start evolving to next, and I ask that as two specific questions: One is do you have a target for next time, other than just larger than 3%? And, secondly, are you looking to actively expand the diversity scholarship program? And if so, how? >> Yeah, the diversity scholarship and the other initiatives around this are long-term initiatives. They're not going to pay off in the next three months; they're going to pay off in two year's time, three year's time. At least that's the hope, that's the goal. So we're always reliant on a lot of our sponsors. I mean, it's kind of a nice time at the moment because there's a lot of effort and willingness to be supportive of diversity in tech, and that means that we can offer more diversity scholarships to more people. But, I sometimes wonder, like I hope that this is not a, I hope that this is not a one-off thing will happen for five years and then people will lose interest. So, I think there are other things that need to happen. And one of the interesting things that I looked at recently is a GitHub survey, this was done in 2017, where they asked men and women how, the last time that you got help in open source, what was the source of that help? And women were, so women were just as likely to say they were interested in contributing, but they were half as likely to say that they had asked on a public forum, like a mailing list, and half as likely to say that they had received unsolicited help. So, I don't think it's something you can just say, right we'll look at individuals and make them do more, this is a community effort. We're all part of the same group of people, that we're trying to do the same, trying to work on the same things, and to do that, we need to get this mindset amongst the community that we need to reach out to more individuals and help them and pull them in, rather than saying well it's up to the CNCF to sort it out. >> Right, so Cheryl, another piece of the ecosystem that you're involved with is the end user piece. We've saw some of the interviews on the stage, as I've mentioned we've had some on the program, talk about the importance and the progress of end user participation in the CNCF. >> Yeah, so the CNCF was set up with these three bodies: the governing board, the technical oversight committee, and the end user community. And in theory, these three should be co-equal in power. At the moment, the end user community is probably lagging behind a little bit, but it's the reason that I joined the CNCF, the reason that my world exists, is to understand what the end users need and get them active and engaged in the community. So, my hope for the end user community is that end users who come in can see, not only the value of using these projects, but there's a path for them into becoming strong technical leaders and having actual influence in the projects beyond users, and then eventually, maybe contributing themselves and becoming leaders. >> Governance of open source projects has always been something of a challenge because it seems that in many respects, the most vocal people are often the ones who are afforded an unfortunate level of control, despite the fact that they may very well not speak for the common case. Instead they start adjudicating and advocating for corner cases. How, it seems that, at this point, based upon the sheer level of engagement you're seeing across enterprises and companies of all sizes, that that is clearly not the case. How do you, I guess, shape an ecosystem that has a healthy perspective on that? >> So, leadership in open source is very different from leadership in a typical corporate hierarchy. And leaders in open source are recognized, not only because of their technical depth and their hands-on contribution, but for their ability to communicate to others and have the empathy and understand what other people need. So, I think that's gone, the people who are seen as leaders in this community have, they've become role models for others and others kind of use that, to earn the actual trust of the community, you have to be very clearly making the right decisions and not doing it because you have an agenda in mind or because your employer wants you to do certain things. So I think that's gone a long way too, making sure that the ecosystem is really healthy and people really feel good about what they're doing. >> Cheryl, last thing is, could you give us for, how are we helping end users get an on-ramp into this community? If you could just give us, kind of, a real quick, what's the CNCF doing, what are some of those on-ramps for those that aren't already on the vote? >> The three big challenges for end users right now are number one, how do I navigate the ecosystem? Number two, how do I hire engineers? And number three, how do I make sure that my business strategy is aligned with Cloud Native? So, navigating the ecosystem is probably the trickiest one because there's so many channels, so many projects, there's no central authority that you can go to and say, I've got this problem, am I doing the right thing? Can you help me get this project, this feature into this project's road map? So, the CNCF has a lot of programs to ensure that end users can meet their peers and especially companies who are, perhaps, 12 months ahead of them, and everybody's trying to go through the same journey right now, everyone has these common challenges. So if they can figure them out together and solve them together, then it just saves a lot of time and effort for everybody. On the hiring piece, the CNCF does a lot around marketing and PR and brand awareness and there's companies here who have a booth, who are not selling their products at all, they're just here because they want to be in front of the engineers who are most involved with open source and Kubernetes, and so the CNCF facilitates that, and to some extent, subsidizes these end users to be at KubeCon. And then the third challenge is aligning your business strategy with Cloud Native. So, end users want to know these projects have longevity. They're going to be here in five year's or 10 year's time, and so for companies that want to get involved into that next level, for example running on that technical oversight committee or being on the governing board, the CNCF can help end users become, have that level of impact and have that level of engagement within the community. >> Alright so Cheryl, last word, any advice for people? What's the hottest job out there, that people are looking for? >> I've previously managed DevOps engineering teams and finding people with real Kubernetes production experience right now is just really hard. And I would say that the first thing that you should do, if you have no experience at all in it, is look at the training programs, for example the CKA, Certified Kubernetes Administrator. You don't have to get a certification, but if you look at the curriculum and go through it step by step, you can understand the basic concepts and after that point, get the production experience. There's no substitute to a year or two years of really running applications and monitoring and scaling them in production and dealing with fires. So, once you get to that point, it's a great place to be. >> Alright, well you heard it here. Cheryl, thanks so much for sharing everything with the ecosystem diversity inclusion. Really appreciate the updates. >> Thank you, really good to speak to you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Coming back with, getting towards the end of two days of live coverage here. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Seattle. It's theCUBE's two, three days of coverage. We're on day two of KubeCon Cloud Native Conference. This is the rise of the Kubernetes, the Ecosystem behind, the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I'm John Furrier, Cube host with Stu Miniman this week analyzing everything. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, who's the director of the Ecosystem for the CNCF. Cheryl, great to have you back. We interviewed you in Copenhagen. Thanks for joining us again. >> Of course, I'm really happy to be back, really happy to see you again. >> So you got a new role. The last time we talked, you were working for, I think, storage-io-- >> StorageOS >> OS, StorageOS. Now you're full-time with the CNCF as the director of the ecosystem, which now is massively growing. What's going on? Tell us about your job and what you're working on. >> So the CNCF's overall mission is to support the development and the adoption of these open-source projects. And I really focus on the adoption side. So I really care about talking to end users and making sure that they can be successful and productive and happy as they transition to this new world of Cloud Native and Kubernetes and open-source infrastructure. So it's a massive change, you know, if you compare this to five or ten years ago, where we are now is so different, but it's really exciting to be apart of it. >> One of the interesting things I remember speaking with you about in Copenhagen, in Europe, at KubeCon there was, you have your background at Google. And so you're Cloud Native, the way you've been working at Google and then now out here. This whole world is moving that way. And the CNCF is end user driven and was really started by end user contributions and now they're all here. Now you have vendors coming in. So you have a dynamic ecosystem. You have contributors that are end users, vendors that are contributors, and now the consumption of Kubernetes and their related technology is growing. What's your take on it? What's the most important thing happening? What are you focused on, what's your focus? >> I think vendors do make a big contribution to the projects as well. I definitely want to recognize that vendors are part of our ecosystem as well. But I think it's really important that, you know, at the end of the day all of this good work is so end users can be successful with what they're doing. There's no point in building these projects if you don't take into account what the community needs out of it. So I've talked to a lot of companies now and there's three levels of engagement that I see about why they want to join this Cloud Native world. One is that they have some concrete technical problems that just need to be solved as soon as possible and they need to think about the best way to do it. The second is around building engineering organizations that can handle this new culture where you're not talking to a vendor who can give you six months of products roadmap in advance. You have to interact with open source communities directly. And in the third is technical executives who really want to put all of their business strategy behind Cloud Native and Kubernetes. And they're really fully invested in to making sure that this community succeeds because it ensures that they will succeed as well. >> And in the end users also we see a lot of recruiting here as well as contributing. This is a number one demand that we certainly see from the Kube's content side of the house here, is that there's demand and a thirst for educational content, for how-to's, the role of a cloud architect now is becoming a clear persona in enterprises. You got an IT impact, you got developer impact, you got open-source, kind of all coming together. Where is the action for the end user right now? If you look at the trends, obviously Kubernetes stability and naturalization is key. Is DOCB's hot? What are the kinds of things that are merging up for end users that you see a demand for feature wise and or just general trend? >> Lots of end users just actually want the CNCF to just tell them, do it this way, and the CNCF is not like that. We're very neutral, we want companies to choose the best things for themselves. So were not going to go out there and say this product over this product or this vendor over this vendor. What we do try to do is create a community where companies can talk to other companies who are trying to solve the same problems. Because that's what community is. Let's do this collaboratively, let's do it out in the open so we're not all trying to solve the same problems over and over and over again. But right now I see a lot of questions about how do you work in more mature, not more mature, but say the finance industry, or how do you work in heavily regulated environments where you have to do a lot of compliance. And also, how do you deal with this explosion of tooling, we all kind of agree that Kubernetes is the way to go, but now there's another 500 tools that you could evaluate out there. What's the best way to figure out the path through that for your company. >> Let the community guide that too, let that be the part of the process, the community really is the driver. >> Cheryl, I'm wondering how you bake that into the show itself as well as the community, are there vertical places that I've got a select channel, or I've got a community group that I can participate with. We know the whole way track is really bumping at a show like this. There's all of the project specific stuff, but how is it that I have that paradox of choice and there's so many different ways I can do it. I bet it would be tough for us to find two companies that have chosen all of the pieces and deploited in a similar enough way, so how do you sort through that? >> It's something that I'm thinking about a lot for the next KubeCon where I hope I see you in Barcelona. Or perhaps the San Diego one after that, it's hard to make sure that there is a place where end users actually come together and do that face to face interaction with each other. So the moment, especially KubeCon is now 8010-D's. It's insane, but now you have to have a more structured place where people can find each other. >> So you talk to a lot of customers that knew you moderate panels with customers. Where are they today? I've talked to some people that were like, "There's 8,000 people here?" And half of them are really new to Kubernetes and need some of just the one on one stuff. As opposed to last year, a lot of the users I talked to were like, "Oh I'm just pulling down the stuff and I'm building all my components and I'm contributing." So we have such a big spectrum. What are some of the big issues you're hearing from customers to help them move forward? >> So, Separate from, I'll come back to this in a second, even before I joined the CNCF, I ran the, and I still run, the Cloud Native London meetup group. Which gets about two to three hundred attendees each month. So obviously not the size of this, but a fairly healthy size for a community. And people will ask, I thought about, should we just focus on a particular segment, like the people who are just getting started, or the people who were actively contributing. And I actually think it's okay to have a place where you can have that mix of levels. And I think it's really important that the more experienced, or people who are further along in their journey have a chance to talk to people who are at the beginning, kind of mentor them through it. But at the same time, we want to do things. So I'll give you a little teaser for next year, we're planning to run smaller, local, more regional events for places that don't necessarily have the ability to come to these huge, giant conferences, and want to talk to each other in a single day, single track small, intimate place. >> More community events where people can participate, not feel remote. I mean, you guys what on the wait list, like 1500 people on the waiting list here. >> For this event? >> For this event, It's demand. >> There's tons of demand, like this is my secret thought, if in time we get to huge, huge sizes, I think we should get a cruise ship, put everyone on a cruise ship for three days, and just be like, "Let's go and sell together and be apart of that". >> We're seeing a lot of cruises on the cryptography site, ICO's, and bunch of the big coiners went, watching their prices go down. But you guys could literally fill a ship. >> Yes, seriously, the pace that KubeCon is growing, it's getting hard to find a place that can hold this many people. >> Community is super important to you guys and we know that, we've been watching it from the beginning. It's really, I don't want to say sacred, but it's really a key nurturing point. What's the vision for enabling the community? Obviously regional events would create sub network in the community, allow for some interaction face to face and contribution wise. What else are you guys doing on the community side that's interesting, that's important, that people should know about? >> So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and talking to a lot of companies and I really think there is no substitution for the face to face stuff, at least initially. There's a lot of online that you can get involved with now, through the mailing lists and Slack and GitHub and all these things. But I really think that if you don't know somebody who's already part of the community, it can be quite hard to know where to even begin. It can feel feel a bit overwhelming, just how to stay on top of it all. So I would really like to establish more places where people feel like they can talk to their peers and feel comfortable and not feel like they're being sold to from vendors or being-- >> genuine, authentic basically, a place where it's not going to be a sales pitch, they can dig in and learn. >> Yeah, exactly. I think It's really important to hold onto the technical quality, and the excellence of what the CNCF provides as well. Without that, everything else, I love this community stuff, it's fantastic, it's really good fun, but it comes down to the technical, this is actually sold for technical and business problem. >> Yeah, great social component, but you got to keep your eye on the prize, get the code out there. >> Yeah, I mean, it's not to say that code is the only thing that matters, but we want to make sure that, people come to, you know, how many people here today are spending three days of their lives with us because they get actual value out of what's happening here. And as long as people keep coming, that shows that there is value there. >> And then the success of the ecosystem, we want to look back and see, these were startups, these are ecosystem partners, big, small medium, and large, they've been successful. That success outcome is really key to what you're working on. Making that successful, it's hard. You guys are growing so fast, give it peek behind the curtain, but CNCF, you went from 4,000 people, I know the thing was just in China, which is exploding with growth, in China, open-source contribution and consumption, you got that exploding. You got the event, 8,000 people. Is the team busting out at the seams right now? I mean, share some inside baseball around, what's going on inside the CNCF, are you guys running hot? What's it like? >> It's crazy, right? Nobody could've predicted how fast this has all grown. And the team is, so the reason I joined the CNCF is because, number one, the growth is there, but number two, I really think the team have really good intentions. And even though there's a lot of work to be done, I think people really have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the right thing for the community. And China is definitely an area that we're investing in on a personal level. I'm taking Mandarin classes to try and improve my Mandarin so that we can, I can actually go to China and make sure that these companies are part of this as well. There are so many things in China that are really advanced and mature, but really sophisticated Kubernetes. But it's so separate from, I feel like it's very separate from the stuff that we see in North America. So China is definitely an area that I'm looking out for. But in terms of the team, I think that we want to do a lot, but at the same time, the CNCF is never going to be like, a thousand person organization, let's talk again in 50 years time and maybe it will be a huge organization. But at the moment, I don't believe the CNCF is going to be a huge organization. So we do rely very heavily on our volunteers, our community, the good will of partners, exactly. >> Well we really appreciate the support of CNCF. Dan has been fantastic to work with We've seen the vision from day one, we saw him in China at Alibaba event last year. We saw the work you guys are doing. You're doing the work and it shows. So congratulations and good luck on your new assignment and-- >> Thank you. Dan is my boss and he's always been incredibly optimistic and energetic and has so much belief in what we're doing. >> He's smart, he gets it-- >> He's very smart. >> He's agile, bring a little DevOps, agility, to the table, right? (chuckles) You know. >> Exactly, you know, he's great, and Chris as well is a super community minded and thinking. >> You guys got a great team. Congratulations and thanks for coming on and sharing your insight-- >> Thank you-- >> Into the CNCF ecosystem. The ecosystem, the open source communities, is the key persona, the key target, but this is impacting IT and developers. This is why Kubernetes is rising, you're seeing real impact with Cloud computing, Cloud scale, Cloud Native, it's a really interesting time and this is proof of the ecosystem. We're here in the Kube coverage here in Seattle. I'm John Furrier and stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and the its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Live here in Seattle for KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, with theCUBE's coverage I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. We've been there from the beginning watching this community grow into a powerhouse. Almost a Moore's Law like growth, doubling every, actually six months, if you think about it. >> Yeah it's pretty wild. >> Chris Aniszczyk, CTO and COO of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Super stoked to be here. Thank you for being with us since the beginning. >> So it's been fun to watch you guys, CNCF has done an exceptional job, I thought, a fabulous job of how you guys have built out a great community, open-source community as the main persona target, but brought in the vendor on terms that really work for open-source, Linux foundation, great shepherding this thing through, now you have, basically, looks like a conference. >> Yeah. >> End user conference, vendors are here, still open-source is pure. The growth has been phenomenal. Just take a minute to give us the update on just some of the stats, massive growth. >> Yeah, sure. I mean you know, we're 8,000 people here today, which is absolutely wild. What's actually crazy is when we planned this event, it was about two years ago when we had to start booking a venue, figuring out how many people may be here. And two years ago we thought 5,000 would have been a fantastic number. Well, we got to 8,000. We have about 1500 to 2,000 people on the wait list that could not get in. So, obviously we did not plan properly but sometimes it's hard to predict kind of the uptake of technology these days. Things just move quickly. I think we've kind of benefited from the turnaround that's happening in the industry right now where companies are finally looking to modernize their infrastructure. Whether it's moving to the cloud or just modernizing things, and that's happening everywhere, from traditional enterprises to internet scale companies. Everyone's looking to kind of modernize things and we're kind of at the forefront of that. >> I mean the challenge of events is, some of it is provisioning, over provision. You don't show up, you want elastic, dynamic, agile-- >> I want the Cloud Native events. >> Programmable space that could just go auto scale when you need it. >> Exactly. >> All kidding aside, congratulations on the success. But one thing we've been covering on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, and you guys have been actually executing on, is the growth in China in open-source. And it's been around for a while but just the scale, just pure numbers, tell them about the success in China and the impact to the open-source community and business. >> Yeah. We put on our first event in Shanghai, KubeCon China. It was fantastic. We sold out at 2500 people. Always a little bit difficult to do your first event in China. I have many stories to share on that one, but the amount of scale, in terms of software deployment there are just fascinating. You kind of have these companies like ofo, is like a bike sharing system right. You know in China they have hundreds of millions of these bicycles that they have to kind of manage in an infrastructural way. The software that you use to actually do that has to be built very well. And so the trend that we're actually seeing in CNCF now is about 10%, we have three projects that were born in China, dealing with China-scale problems. So one of those projects is TiKV, which is kind of a very well fine-tuned built distributed key value store that is used by a lot of the Chinese com providers and folks like ofo and LME out there that are just dealing with hundreds of millions of users. It's fascinating. I think the trend you're going to see in the future is there's going to be more technology that is kind of born dealing with China-scale issues, and having those lessons being shared with the rest of the world and collaborate. One of the goals in CNCF for us is to help bridge these communities. In China about 25% of our attendance was international, which was higher then we expected. But we had dual live simultaneous translation for everyone, to kind of try to bridge these... >> It's a big story. The consumption and the contribution side is just phenomenal. >> China is our number two contributor to all CNCF projects, it's very impressive in my opinion. >> So Chris there was a lot in the keynote. I wondered, give us a little insight, it's different for a foundation in open-source communities than it is for company when you talk about the core product being Kubernetes and then all these other projects, you've got the incubating projects, the ones that have been elevated, new FCD comes into it, how do you do the juggling act of this? >> Honestly, the whole goal of the foundation is basically to cultivate and sustain, and kind of grow projects that come in. Some are going to work and be very successful, some may never leave the sandbox, which is our early stage. So today I was very excited to finally have etcd come as an official incubating project. This is our 31st project, which is a little bit wild, since we started, it was just Kubernetes. We had other projects that moved from, say, sandbox to incubating. So in China, one of our big announcements was Harbor, which is a container registry, or actually, technically, we call it a Cloud Native Registry, because it does support things like helm charts, it doesn't only host container-based artifacts. It moved up to the incubating level and that is being embedded. It's in all of Cloud Foundry's and Pivotal's products. It's used by some cloud providers in China as their kind of registry as a service. Like their equivalent to ECR or GCR, essentially. And we've just seen incredible growth across all of our projects. I mean, we have three graduated projects. Envoy recently, which you saw Matt, Constance, and Jose on stage a little bit to talk about. To me, what I really like about Envoy and Prometheus, these are two projects that were not born from a vendor. You know. Envoy came from Lyft because they were just like, you know what? We're not happy with our current kind of reverse proxy, service proxy situation, let's build our own open-source and kind of share our lessons. Prometheus, born from SoundCloud. So I think CNCF has a good mix of, hey, we have some initial vendor-driven projects, like Kubernetes came from Google but now it's used by a ton of people. But then you have other projects that were born from the end-user community. I think having that healthy mix is good for everyone. >> I think the DNA of that early on in the culture has been a successful one for you guys. Not being vendor-led, being end-user led, but vendors can come in and participate. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So talk about the end-user perspective because we're very interested, a lot of people are interested in end-user. What are they doing with it? It used to be a joke. I stood up a bunch Hadoop but what are you using it for? What are people using Kubernetes for? You've got Apple, Uber, Capital One, Comcast, GoDaddy, Airbnb. They're all investing in Kubernetes as their main stack. >> And CNCF projects, not only Kubernetes. >> But what does that mean when they say Kubernetes as a stack? It's kind of been encapsulated to include other things. People are looking at this as a real alternative. Can you explain what that is about? >> So, I think people have to realize that CNCF is essentially more than just Kubernetes. Cloud Native is more than just Kubernetes. So what we'll see is, take a company like Lyft. Lyft did not start using Kubernetes, they are kind of on that migration path now but Lyft started to use Envoy, Prometheus, gRPC, other technologies that kind of lead them to that Cloud Native journey that eventually they're like, you know what? Maybe we don't need our homegrown orchestrator. We'll go use that. And use, (huffs) Everyone falls in differently in kind of a community. Some people start with Kubernetes and eventually subsume the other kind of ancillary projects. >> This is what the project cloud is about. Let me rephrase the question. So when people say, because this is a real trend we've been reporting on this, the CNCF stack, people have language semantics on how that's couched. Oh, on the Kubernetes-- >> I don't like stack because it means there's one proscribed solution, where I think it's more like an a la carte model. >> Well if I quote the CNCF stack, if there was a word for it, as an alternative, as a solution base with Kubernetes at the core of it, right. Okay, cool. What is that usage being looked like? How is that developing? How are end users looking at the CNCF holistically with Kubernetes at the core? >> So we have one of the largest end-user communities out there of any open-source foundation. We have about 80 members. When we talk to them directly, why are they adopting CNCF projects and technology? Most of the time is they want to deploy software faster, right? They want to use modern CICD tools and just development patterns. So it's all about faster time to market and making the developers lives easier so they're actually able to deliver business customer value. And it's basically similar to a whole DevOps mantra, right. If I could ship software faster and it's easier for my developers to get stuff done, I'm delivering value to whatever my end-user customer is at the end of the day. If you go to the CNCF end-user website, we have case studies from Nordstrom, Capital One, I think Lyft is there. Just a bunch of people that, we moved to these technologies because it improved the way we could monitor software, how fast we could ship. It's all about faster time to market, and modernizing their infrastructure. >> Chris, give us a little bit of a view coming forward. We're on 1.13 for Kubernetes, if I read it right. The contribution slowed down a little bit because we're actually reaching a level of maturity. >> Kubernetes is boring and mature. >> What do you see as we come, other than continued growth? >> So I think the wider ecosystem is going to continue to grow. So if you actually look at Kubernetes directly, it has been very focused on moving things out of the core as much as possible and trying to force people to extend things. I don't know if you saw, Tim Hockin had this great talk in terms of how all the Kubernetes components are either being ripped out or turned into custom resource definition of CODs. Basically trying to make Kubernetes as extensible as possible. Instead of trying to ram things into Kubernetes, hey, use the built in extensibility layer. >> Decompose a little bit. >> Decompose and the analogy here would be like kernel space versus user space if you're going to Linux. All the exciting things tend to happen in user space these days but, yeah, the kernel is still important, actively contributed to by a ton of people, very critical, everything. But a lot of the action happens in user space. And I think you'll see the same thing with Kubernetes, where it will kind of become like Linux where the kernel of Kubernetes, very stable, mature, focused on basically not breaking and trying to keep it as simple as possible and built good extensibility mechanisms so folks could plug in whatever systems. We saw this with storage in Kubernetes. A lot of the initial storage drivers, flex volume stuff, was baked into the Kubernetes with a new effort called the container storage interface. They all pulled that out and made they basically built an extensibility mechanism so any company or any project could bring in their storage solution. >> One of the key trends we're seeing, obviously, in cloud is automation. We see serverless around the corner, you see all these things going on around the cool things you guys are building. As automation continues to move down the track, where is that going to impact and create value for customer end-users as they roll with the CNCF? So Kubernetes at some point could be auto, why even be managing clusters? Well, that should be automated at some point. >> I mean, hey, you could do it both ways. A lot of people love the managed service approach. If I could pay a large hyper-scale cloud provider to manage everything, the more the merrier. Some want the freedom to roll their own. Some may want to pay a vendor, I don't know, Red Hat OpenShift looks great, let's pay them to help manage data. Or I just roll alone. And we've seen it all. You know it really depends on the organization. We've seen some very high end banks or financial institutions that have very good technical chops. They're okay rolling on their own. Some may not be as interested in that and just pay a vendor to manage it. >> It's a choice issue. >> For us it's all goodness, whatever you prefer. I think longer term we'll see more people, just for the convenience of managed services, go that route. But for CNCF Kubernetes there's multiple ways to do it; you could go Vanilla, you could go Managed Service, you could go through a vendor like Rancher or OpenShift. The cool thing about all these things is they all are conformant to the Kubernetes certified program, so it means there's no breakage or forking, everyone is compliant. >> So for the people that are watching that couldn't make it here or are on the waiting list, or doing LobbyCon. >> I'm sorry, I'm sorry for the waiting list. >> This is actually a good venue to do LobbyCon, there's places to meet here. I know a lot of people actually in town kind of LobbyCon-ing it. But for the people that aren't here, what's the most important story that's being told? I know we're not being talked about. What is happening here? What should people know about this year? In your mind's eye, in your understanding of the program, and how it's developed early on, what's the most important thing? >> I think in general CNCF, Cloud Native, Kubernetes all have matured a lot in the last three years, especially the last 12-18 months, where you've seen... Earlier it was all about technical-savvy folks scratching their itch. Now the end-users that I'm talking to, you have like Maersk, what does Maersk do? They actually ship containers, right? But now they are using Kubernetes to manage containers on the containers. >> They're in the container business. >> I'm seeing traditional insurance companies. So I think what we're doing is we're basically hitting, we're kind of past that threshold of early adopters and tinkerers, and now we're moving to full-blown mainstream adoption. Part of that is the cloud providers are all offering Managed Kubernetes, so it's convenient for companies that move in the cloud. And then on the distro front, OpenShift, PKS, Rancher, they're all mature products. So there's just a lot of stability and maturity in the ecosystem. >> Just talking about the mature stuff, give us your take on Knative. What should people be looking at that? How does Serverless fit into all this? >> So Serverless, you know we love Serverless in CNCF. We just view it as another kind of programing model that eventually runs on some type of containerized stack. For us at CNCF, we have a Serverless working group that's been putting out whitepapers. We have a spec around cloud events standardized. I think Knative is a fantastic approach of how to basically build a, kind of like CNCF where it's a set of components that you can use to build your own serverless framework. I think the adoption has been great. We've actually been talking to them about potentially bringing in some components of Knative into CNCF. I think, if you want to provide your own serverless offering, you're going to need the components in Knative to make that happen. I've seen SAPs picked up on it. GitLab just announced a serverless offering based on Knative today. I think it's a great technology. It's still very early days. I think serverless is great and will be continually used, but it's one option of many. We're going to have containers, we're going to have serverless, we're going to have mainframes. It's going to be a mix of everything. >> I'm old enough to remember the old client server days when multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-cloud now is a subtext here. I think that one of the big stories in issue of the maturity is that you're starting to see people, I want choice. And hybrid-cloud is the word today but I think ultimately people view it as a multi-cloud environment of resource. >> So one interesting thing about KubeCon, I think one of our reasons that we've grown so much is if you look at it, there's really no other event you can go to that is truly multi-cloud. You have all the HyperScale folks, you've got your end-users and vendors in one area, right? Versus you going to a vendor-specific event. So I think that's kind of been part of our benefit and then luck to kind of stumble in this where everyone is in the same room. I think next year, big push on bringing all the clouds. >> Well, Chris, thanks for spending the time. I know you're super busy. CTO and COO of the CNCF, really making things happen. This is a real, important technology wave, the cloud computing, and having the kind of choices in ecosystem around open-source is making it happen. Congratulations to your success. We're going to continue coverage here. Day one of three days of CUBE coverage. I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. Stay with us for more after this short break. (light music)