(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are here on the show floor at AWS re:Invent. We are theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson, joined with John Furrier. John, afternoon, day two, we are in full swing. >> Yes. >> What's got you most excited? >> Just got lunch, got the food kicking in. No, we don't get coffee. (Savannah laughing) >> Way to bring the hype there, John. >> No, there's so many people here just in Amazon. We're back to 2019 levels of crowd. The interest levels are high. Next gen, cloud security, big part of the keynote. This next segment, I am super excited about. CUBE Alumni, going back to 2013, 10 years ago he was on theCUBE. Now, 10 years later we're at re:Invent, looking forward to this guest and it's about security, great topic. >> I don't want to delay us anymore, please welcome Mark. Mark, thank you so much for being here with us. Massive day for you and the team. I know you oversee three different units at Amazon, Inspector, Detective, and the most recently announced, Security Lake. Tell us about Amazon Security Lake. >> Well, thanks Savannah. Thanks John for having me. Well, Security Lake has been in the works for a little bit of time and it got announced today at the keynote as you heard from Adam. We're super excited because there's a couple components that are really unique and valuable to our customers within Security Lake. First and foremost, the foundation of Security Lake is an open source project we call OCFS, Open Cybersecurity Framework Schema. And what that allows is us to work with the vendor community at large in the security space and develop a language where we can all communicate around security data. And that's the language that we put into Security Data Lake. We have 60 vendors participating in developing that language and partnering within Security Lake. But it's a communal lake where customers can bring all of their security data in one place, whether it's generated in AWS, they're on-prem, or SaaS offerings or other clouds, all in one location in a language that allows analytics to take advantage of that analytics and give better outcomes for our customers. >> So Adams Selipsky big keynote, he spent all the bulk of his time on data and security. Obviously they go well together, we've talked about this in the past on theCUBE. Data is part of security, but this security's a little bit different in the sense that the global footprint of AWS makes it uniquely positioned to manage some security threats, EKS protection, a very interesting announcement, runtime layer, but looking inside and outside the containers, probably gives extra telemetry on some of those supply chains vulnerabilities. This is actually a very nuanced point. You got Guard Duty kind of taking its role. What does it mean for customers 'cause there's a lot of things in this announcement that he didn't have time to go into detail. Unpack all the specifics around what the security announcement means for customers. >> Yeah, so we announced four items in Adam's keynote today within my team. So I'll start with Guard Duty for EKS runtime. It's complimenting our existing capabilities for EKS support. So today Inspector does vulnerability assessment on EKS or container images in general. Guard Duty does detections of EKS workloads based on log data. Detective does investigation and analysis based on that log data as well. With the announcement today, we go inside the container workloads. We have more telemetry, more fine grain telemetry and ultimately we can provide better detections for our customers to analyze risks within their container workload. So we're super excited about that one. Additionally, we announced Inspector for Lambda. So Inspector, we released last year at re:Invent and we focused mostly on EKS container workloads and EC2 workloads. Single click automatically assess your environment, start generating assessments around vulnerabilities. We've added Lambda to that capability for our customers. The third announcement we made was Macy sampling. So Macy has been around for a while in delivering a lot of value for customers providing information around their sensitive data within S3 buckets. What we found is many customers want to go and characterize all of the data in their buckets, but some just want to know is there any sensitive data in my bucket? And the sampling feature allows the customer to find out their sensitive data in the bucket, but we don't have to go through and do all of the analysis to tell you exactly what's in there. >> Unstructured and structured data. Any data? >> Correct, yeah. >> And the fourth? >> The fourth, Security Data Lake? (John and Savannah laughing) Yes. >> Okay, ocean theme. data lake. >> Very complimentary to all of our services, but the unique value in the data lake is that we put the information in the customer's control. It's in their S3 bucket, they get to decide who gets access to it. We've heard from customers over the years that really have two options around gathering large scale data for security analysis. One is we roll our own and we're security engineers, we're not data engineers. It's really hard for them to build these distributed systems at scale. The second one is we can pick a vendor or a partner, but we're locked in and it's in their schemer and their format and we're there for a long period of time. With Security Data Lake, they get the best of both worlds. We run the infrastructure at scale for them, put the data in their control and they get to decide what use case, what partner, what tool gives them the most value on top of their data. >> Is that always a good thing to give the customers too much control? 'Cause you know the old expression, you give 'em a knife they play with and they they can cut themselves, I mean. But no, seriously, 'cause what's the provisions around that? Because control was big part of the governance, how do you manage the security? How does the customer worry about, if I have too much control, someone makes a mistake? >> Well, what we finding out today is that many customers have realized that some of their data has been replicated seven times, 10 times, not necessarily maliciously, but because they have multiple vendors that utilize that data to give them different use cases and outcomes. It becomes costly and unwieldy to figure out where all that data is. So by centralizing it, the control is really around who has access to the data. Now, ultimately customers want to make those decisions and we've made it simple to aggregate this data in a single place. They can develop a home region if they want, where all the data flows into one region, they can distribute it globally. >> They're in charge. >> They're in charge. But the controls are mostly in the hands of the data governance person in the company, not the security analyst. >> So I'm really curious, you mentioned there's 60 AWS partner companies that have collaborated on the Security lake. Can you tell us a little bit about the process? How long does it take? Are people self-selecting to contribute to these projects? Are you cherry picking? What does that look like? >> It's a great question. There's three levels of collaboration. One is around the open source project that we announced at Black Hat early in this year called OCSF. And that collaboration is we've asked the vendor community to work with us to build a schema that is universally acceptable to security practitioners, not vendor specific and we've asked. >> Savannah: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but is this a first of its kind? >> There's multiple schemes out there developed by multiple parties. They've been around for multiple years, but they've been built by a single vendor. >> Yeah, that's what I'm drill in on a little bit. It sounds like the first we had this level of collaboration. >> There's been collaborations around them, but in a handful of companies. We've really gone to a broad set of collaborators to really get it right. And they're focused around areas of expertise that they have knowledge in. So the EDR vendors, they're focused around the scheme around EDR. The firewall vendors are focused around that area. Certainly the cloud vendors are in their scope. So that's level one of collaboration and that gets us the level playing field and the language in which we'll communicate. >> Savannah: Which is so important. >> Super foundational. Then the second area is around producers and subscribers. So many companies generate valuable security data from the tools that they run. And we call those producers the publishers and they publish the data into Security Lake within that OCSF format. Some of them are in the form of findings, many of them in the form of raw telemetry. Then the second one is in the subscriber side and those are usually analytic vendors, SIM vendors, XDR vendors that take advantage of the logs in one place and generate analytic driven outcomes on top of that, use cases, if you will, that highlight security risks or issues for customers. >> Savannah: Yeah, cool. >> What's the big customer focus when you start looking at Security Lakes? How do you see that planning out? You said there's a collaboration, love the open source vibe on that piece, what data goes in there? What's sharing? 'Cause a big part of the keynote I heard today was, I heard clean rooms, I've cut my antenna up. I'd love to hear that. That means there's an implied sharing aspect. The security industry's been sharing data for a while. What kind of data's in that lake? Give us an example, take us through. >> Well, this a number of sources within AWS, as customers run their workloads in AWS. We've identified somewhere around 25 sources that will be natively single click into Amazon Security Lake. We were announcing nine of them. They're traditional network logs, BBC flow, cloud trail logs, firewall logs, findings that are generated across AWS, EKS audit logs, RDS data logs. So anything that customers run workloads on will be available in data lake. But that's not limited to AWS. Customers run their environments hybridly, they have SaaS applications, they use other clouds in some instances. So it's open to bring all that data in. Customers can vector it all into this one single location if they decide, we make it pretty simple for them to do that. Again, in the same format where outcomes can be generated quickly and easily. >> Can you use the data lake off on premise or it has to be in an S3 in Amazon Cloud? >> Today it's in S3 in Amazon. If we hear customers looking to do something different, as you guys know, we tend to focus on our customers and what they want us to do, but they've been pretty happy about what we've decided to do in this first iteration. >> So we got a story about Silicon Angle. Obviously the ingestion is a big part of it. The reporters are jumping in, but the 53rd party sources is a pretty big number. Is that coming from the OCSF or is that just in general? Who's involved? >> Yeah, OCSF is the big part of that and we have a list of probably 50 more that want to join in part of this. >> The other big names are there, Cisco, CrowdStrike, Peloton Networks, all the big dogs are in there. >> All big partners of AWS, anyway, so it was an easy conversation and in most cases when we started having the conversation, they were like, "Wow, this has really been needed for a long time." And given our breadth of partners and where we sit from our customers perspective in the center of their cloud journey that they've looked at us and said, "You guys, we applaud you for driving this." >> So Mark, take us through the conversations you're having with the customers at re:Inforce. We saw a lot of meetings happening. It was great to be back face to face. You guys have been doing a lot of customer conversation, security Data Lake came out of that. What was the driving force behind it? What were some of the key concerns? What were the challenges and what's now the opportunity that's different? >> We heard from our customers in general. One, it's too hard for us to get all the data we need in a single place, whether through AWS, the industry in general, it's just too hard. We don't have those resources to data wrangle that data. We don't know how to pick schema. There's multiple ones out there. Tell us how we would do that. So these three challenges came out front and center for every customer. And mostly what they said is our resources are limited and we want to focus those resources on security outcomes and we have security engines. We don't want to focus them on data wrangling and large scale distributed systems. Can you help us solve that problem? And it came out loud and clear from almost every customer conversation we had. And that's where we took the challenge. We said, "Okay, let's build this data layer." And then on top of that we have services like Detective and Guard Duty, we'll take advantage of it as well. But we also have a myriad of ISV third parties that will also sit on top of that data and render out. >> What's interesting, I want to get your reaction. I know we don't have much time left, but I want to get your thoughts. When I see Security Data Lake, which is awesome by the way, love the focus, love how you guys put that together. It makes me realize the big thing in re:Invent this year is this idea of specialized solutions. You got instances for this and that, use cases that require certain kind of performance. You got the data pillars that Adam laid out. Are we going to start seeing more specialized data lakes? I mean, we have a video data lake. Is there going to be a FinTech data lake? Is there going to be, I mean, you got the Great Lakes kind of going on here, what is going on with these lakes? I mean, is that a trend that Amazon sees or customers are aligning to? >> Yeah, we have a couple lakes already. We have a healthcare lake and a financial lake and now we have a security lake. Foundationally we have Lake Formation, which is the tool that anyone can build a lake. And most of our lakes run on top of Lake Foundation, but specialize. And the specialization is in the data aggregation, normalization, enridgement, that is unique for those use cases. And I think you'll see more and more. >> John: So that's a feature, not a bug. >> It's a feature, it's a big feature. The customers have ask for it. >> So they want roll their own specialized, purpose-built data thing, lake? They can do it. >> And customer don't want to combine healthcare information with security information. They have different use cases and segmentation of the information that they care about. So I think you'll see more. Now, I also think that you'll see where there are adjacencies that those lakes will expand into other use cases in some cases too. >> And that's where the right tools comes in, as he was talking about this ETL zero, ETL feature. >> It be like an 80, 20 rule. So if 80% of the data is shared for different use cases, you can see how those lakes would expand to fulfill multiple use cases. >> All right, you think he's ready for the challenge? Look, we were on the same page. >> Okay, we have a new challenge, go ahead. >> So think of it as an Instagram Reel, sort of your hot take, your thought leadership moment, the clip we're going to come back to and reference your brilliance 10 years down the road. I mean, you've been a CUBE veteran, now CUBE alumni for almost 10 years, in just a few weeks it'll be that. What do you think is, and I suspect, I think I might know your answer to this, so feel free to be robust in this. But what do you think is the biggest story, key takeaway from the show this year? >> We're democratizing security data within Security Data Lake for sure. >> Well said, you are our shortest answer so far on theCUBE and I absolutely love and respect that. Mark, it has been a pleasure chatting with you and congratulations, again, on the huge announcement. This is such an exciting day for you all. >> Thank you Savannah, thank you John, pleasure to be here. >> John: Thank you, great to have you. >> We look forward to 10 more years of having you. >> Well, maybe we don't have to wait 10 years. (laughs) >> Well, more years, in another time. >> I have a feeling it'll be a lot of security content this year. >> Yeah, pretty hot theme >> Very hot theme. >> Pretty odd theme for us. >> Of course, re:Inforce will be there this year again, coming up 2023. >> All the res. >> Yep, all the res. >> Love that. >> We look forward to see you there. >> All right, thanks, Mark. >> Speaking of res, you're the reason we are here. Thank you all for tuning in to today's live coverage from AWS re:Invent. We are in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier. My name is Savannah Peterson. We are theCUBE and we are the leading source for high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone. Live coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Detroit, Michigan. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE for special one-on-one conversation with Scott Johnston, who's the CEO of Docker, CUBE alumni, been around the industry, multiple cycles of innovation, leading one of the most important companies in today's industry inflection point as Docker what they've done since they're, I would say restart from the old Docker to the new Docker, now modern, and the center of the conversation with containers driving the growth of Kubernetes. Scott, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> John, thanks for the invite. Glad to be here. >> You guys have had great success this year with extensions. Docker as a business model's grown. Congratulations, you guys are monetizing well. Pushing up over 50 million. >> Thank you. >> I hear over pushing a hundred million maybe. What the year to the ground will tell me, but it's good sign. Plus you've got the community and nurturing of the ecosystem continuing to power away and open source is not stopping. It's thundering away growth. Younger generation coming in. >> That's right. >> Developer tool chain that you have has become consistent. Almost de facto standard. Others are coming in the market. A lot of competition emerging. You got a lot going on right now. What's going on? >> Well, I know it's fantastic time in our industry. Like all companies are becoming software companies. That means they need to build new applications. That means they need developers to be productive and to be safely productive. And we, and this wonderful CNCF ecosystem are right in the middle of that trend, so it's fantastic. >> So you have millions of developers using Docker. >> Tens of millions. >> Tens of millions of developed Docker and as the market's changing, I was commenting before we came on camera, and I'd love to get your reaction, comment on it. You guys represent the modernization of containers, open source. You haven't really changed how open source works, but you've kind of modernized it. You're starting to see developers at the front lines, more and more power going to developers. >> Scott: That's right. >> They want self-service. They vote with their code. >> That's right. >> They vote with their actions. >> Scott: That's right. >> And if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, it's not IT serves the business or it's a department, the company is IT. >> That's right. >> The company is the application, which means developers are running everything. >> Yes, yes. I mean, one of the jokes, not jokes in the valley is that Tesla is in a car company. Tesla is a computer company that happens to have wheels on the computer. And I think we can smile at that, but there's so many businesses, particularly during COVID, that realize that. What happened during COCID? If you're going to the movies, nope, you're now going to Netflix. If you're going to the gym, now you're doing Peloton. So this realization that like I have to have a digital game, not just on the side, but it has to be the forefront of my business and drive my business. That realization is now any industry, any company across the board. >> We've been reporting aggressively for past three years now. Even now we're calling some things supercloud. If companies, if they don't realize that IT is not a department, they will probably be out of business. >> That's a hundred percent. >> It's going to transform into full on invisible infrastructure. Infrastructure as code, whatever you want to call that going, configuration, operations, developers will set the pace. This has a lot to do with some of your success. You're at the beginning of it. This is just the beginning. What can you talk about that in your mind is contributing to the success of Docker? I know you're going to say team, everything, I get that, but like what specifically in the industry is driving Docker's success right now? >> Well, it did. We did have a fantastic team. We do have a fantastic team and that is one of the reasons, primary reasons our success. But what is also happening, John, is because there's a demand for applications, I'll just throw it out there. 750 million new applications are coming in the market in the next two years. That is more applications that have been developed in the entire 40 years history of IT. So just think about the productivity demands that are coming at developers. And then you also see the need to do so safely, meaning ship quickly, but ship safely. And yet 90 some percent of every application consists of open source components that are now on attack surface for criminals. And so typically our industry has had to say one or the other, okay, you can ship quickly but not safely, or you can ship safely, but it's not going to go fast. And one of the reasons I think Docker is where it is today is that we're able to offer both. We're able to unlock that you can ship quickly, safely using Docker, using the Docker toolchain, using integrations we have with all the wonderful partners here at CNCF that is unique. And that's a big reason why we're seeing the success we're seeing. >> And you're probably pleased with extensions this year. >> Yes. >> The performance of extensions that you launched at DockerCon '22. >> Yes. Well, extensions are part of that story and that developers have multiple tools. They want choice, developers like choice to be productive and Docker is part of that, but it's not the only solution. And so Docker extensions allow the monitoring providers and the observability and if you want a separate Kubernetes stack, like all of that flexibility, extensions allows. And again, offers the power and the innovation of this ecosystem to be used in a Docker development and context. >> Well, I want to get into some of the details of some of your products and how they're evolving. But first I want to get your thoughts on the trend line here that we reported at the opening segment. The hot story is WebAssembly, the Wasm, which really got a lot of traction or interest. People enthous about it. >> Interest, yeah. >> Lot of enthusiasm. Confidence we'll see how that evolves, but a lot of enthusiasm for sure. I've never seen something this hyped up since Envoy, in my opinion. So a lot of interest from developers. What is Wasm or WebAssembly is actually what it is, but Wasm is the codeword or nickname. What is Wasm? >> So in brief, WebAssembly is a new application type, full stop. And it's just enough of the components that you need and it's just a binary format that is very, very secure. And so it's lightweight, it's fast and secure. And so it opens up a lot of interesting use cases for developer, particularly on the edge. Another use case for Wasm is in the browser. Again, lightweight, fast, secure also. >> John: Sounds like an app server to me. >> And so we think it's a very, very interesting trend. And you ask, Okay, what's Docker's role in that? Well, Docker has been around eight years now, eight plus years, tens of millions developers using it. They've already made investments in skills, talent, automation, toolchains, pipelines. And Docker started with Linux containers as we know, then brought that same experience to Windows containers, then brought it to serverless functions. About 25% of Amazon Lambdas are OCI image containers. And so we were seeing that trend. We were also seeing the community actually without any prompting from us, start to fork and play with Docker and apply it to Wasm. And we're like, Huh, that's interesting. What if we helped get behind that trend, such that you changed just one line of a Docker file, now you're able to produce Wasm objects instead of Linux containers and just bring that same easy to use. >> So that's not a competition to Docker's? >> Not a competition at all. In fact, very complimentary. We showed off on Monday at the Wasm day, how in the same Docker compose application, multi-service application. One service is delivered via Linux container, Another service is delivered via Wasm. >> And Wasm is what? Multiple languages? 'Cause what is it? >> Yes. So the binary can be compiled from multiple languages. So RAS, JavaScript, on and on and on. At the end of the day, it's a smaller binary that provides a function, typically a single function that you can stand up and deploy on an edge. You can stand up and deploy on the server side or stand up and deploy on the browser. >> So from a container standpoint, from your customer standpoint, what a Linux container is is a similar thing to what a Wasm container is. >> They could implement the same function. That's right. Now a Linux container can have more capabilities that a function might not have, but that's. >> John: From a workflow standpoint. >> That's right. And that's more of a use case by use case standpoint. What we serve is we serve developers and we started out serving developers with Linux containers, then Windows containers, then Lambdas, now Wasm. Whatever other use case, what other application type comes along, we want to be there to serve developers. >> So one of the things I want to get your thoughts on, because this has come up in a couple CUBE interviews before, and we were talking before we came on camera, is developers want ease of use and simplicity. They don't want more steps to do things. They don't want things harder. >> That's right. So the classic innovation is reduce the time it takes to do something, reduce the steps, make it easier. That's a formula of success. >> Scott: That's right. >> When you start adding more toolchains into the mix, you get tool sprawl. So that's not really, that's antithesis to developer. So the argument is, okay, do I have to use a new tool chain for Wasm? Is that a fact or no? >> That's exactly right. That was what we were seeing and we thought, well, how can Docker help with this situation? And Docker can help by bringing the same existing toolchain that developers are already familiar with. The same automation, the same pipelines. And just by changing a line of Docker file, changing a single line of composed file, now they get the power of Wasm unlocked in the very same tools they were using before. >> So your position is, hey, don't adopt some toolchain for Wasm. You can just do it in line with Docker. >> No need to, no need to. We're providing it right there out of the box, ready for them. >> That's raise and extend, as they would say, build Microsoft strategy there. That's nice. Okay, so let's get back into like the secure trusted 'cause that was another theme at DockerCon. We covered that deeply. Software supply chain, I was commenting on my intro with Savannah and Lisa that at some point open source means so plentiful. You might not have to write code. You got to glue together. So as code proliferates, the question what's in there? >> That's right. This is what they call the software supply chain. You've been all over this. Where are we with this? Is it harder now? Is it easier? Was there progress? Take us through what's the state of the art. I think we're early on this one, John, in the industry because I think the realization of how much open source is inside a given app is just now hitting consciousness. And so the data we have is that for any given application, anywhere from 75 to 85% is actually not unique to the developer or the organization. It's open source components that they have put together. And it's really down to that last 15, 25%, which is their own unique code that they're adding on top of all this open source code. So right there, it's like, aha, that's a pretty interesting profile or distribution of value, which means those open source components, where are they finding them? How are they integrating them? How do they know those open source components are going to be supported and trusted and secured? And that's the challenge for us as an industry right now is to make it just obvious where to get the components, how safe they are, who's standing behind them, and how easy it is to assemble them into a working application. >> All right. So the question that I had specifically on security 'cause this had come up before. All good on the trusted and I think that message is evergreen. It's a north star. That's a north star for you. How are you making images more secure and how are you enabling organizations to identify security issues in containers? Can you share your strategy and thoughts on that particular point? >> Yes. So there's a range of things in the secure software supply chain and it starts with, are you starting with trusted open source components that you know have support, that you know are secured? So in Docker Hub today, we have 14 million applications, but a subset of that, we've worked with the upstream providers to basically designate as trusted open source content. So this is the Docker official images, Docker verified publisher images, Docker sponsored open source. And those different categories have levels of certification assurance that they must go through. Generate an SBOM, so you know what's inside that container. It has to be scanned by a scanning tool and those scanning results have to be made available. >> John: Are you guys scanning that? >> So we provide a scanner, they can use another scanner as long as they publish the results of that scan. And then the whole thing is signed. >> Are you publishing the results on your side too? >> Yeah, we published our results through an open database that's accessible to all. >> Free. >> Free, a hundred percent free. You come in and you can see every image on hub. >> So I'm a user, for free I can see security vulnerabilities that are out there that have been identified. >> By version, by layer, all the way through. And you can see tracking all the way back to the package that's upstream. So you know how to remediate and we provide recommendations on how to remediate that with the latest version. >> John: And you don't charge for that. >> We don't charge for that. We do not charge for that. And so that's the trusted upstream. >> So organization can look at the scan, they can look at the scan data and hopefully, what happens if they're not scanned? >> So we provide scanning tools both for the local environments for Docker Desktop, as well as for hub. So if you want to do your own scan, so for example, when you're that developer adding the 15, 25%, you got to scan your stuff as well. Not just leave it up to the already scanned components. And so we provide tools there. We also provide tools to track the packages that that developer might be including in their custom code, all the way back upstream to whatever MPM repo or what have you that they picked up. And then if there's a CVE 30 days later, we also track that as well. We say, Hey, that package was was safe 29 days ago, but today CVE just came out, better upgrade to the latest version and get that out there. So basically if you get down to it, it's like start with trusted components and then have observability not just on the moment. >> And scan all the time. >> Scan all the time and scanning gives you that observability and importantly not just at that moment, but through the lifecycle of the application, through lifecycle of the artifact. So end-to-end 24/7 observability of the state of your supply chain. That's what's key, John. >> That's the best practice. >> That's the key. That's the key. >> Awesome, I agree. That's great. Well, I'm glad we've dug into that's super important. Obviously organizations can get that scanning that's exceed the vulnerabilities, that can take action. That's going to be a big focus here for you, security. It's not going to stop, is it? >> It's never going to stop because criminals are incentive to keep attacking. And so it's the gift that keeps on giving, if you will. >> Okay, so let's get into some of the products. Docker Desktop seems to be doing well. Docker Hub has always been a staple of it. And how's that going? >> Yeah, Docker Hub has 18 million monthly actives hitting it and that's growing by double digits year over year. And what they're finding, going back to our previous thread, John, is that they're coming there for the trusted content. In fact, those three categories that I referenced earlier are about 2000 applications of the 14 million. And yet they represent 56% of the 15 billion downloads a month from Docker Hub. Meaning developers are identifying that, hey, I want trusted source. We raise those in the search results and we have a visual cue. And so that's the big driver of hub's growth right now, is I want trusted content, where do I go? I go to Hub, download that trusted open source and I'm ready to go. >> I have been seeing some chatter on the internet and some people's sharing that they're looking at other places, besides hub, to do some things. What's your message to folks out there around Docker Hub? Why Docker Hub and desktop together? 'Cause you mentioned the toolchain before, but those two areas, I know they've been around for a while, you continue to work on them. What's the message to the folks out there about stay with the hub? >> Sure. I mean the beauty of our ecosystem is that it's interoperable. The standards for build, share and run, we're all using them here at CNCF. So yes, there's other registries. What we would say is we have the 18 million monthly active that are pulling, we have the worldwide distribution that is 24/7 high, five nines reliability, and frankly, we're there to provide choice. And so yes, we have have our trusted content, but for example, the Tanzu apps, they also distribute through us. Red Hat applications also distribute through us because we have the reach and the distribution and offer developers choice of Dockers content, choice of Red Hats content, choice of VMware's, choice of Bitnami, so on so forth. So come to the hub for the distribution to reach and that the requirements we have for security that we put in place for our publishers, give users and publishers an extra degree of assurance. >> So the Docker Hub is an important part of the system? >> Scott: Yes, very much so. >> And desktop, what's new with desktop? >> So desktop of course is the other end of the spectrum. So if trusted components start up on Docker Hub, developers are pulling them down to the desktop to start assembling their application. And so the desktop gives that developer all the tools he or she needs to build that modern application. So you can have your build tooling, your debug tooling, your IDE sitting alongside there, your Docker run, your Docker compose up. And so the loop that we see happening is the dev will have a database they download from hub, a front-end, they'll add their code to it and they'll just rapidly iterate. They'll make a change, stand it up, do a unit test, and when they're satisfied do a git commit, off it goes into production. >> And your goal obviously is to have developers stay with Docker for their toolchain, their experience, make it their home base. >> And their trusted content. That's right. And the trusted content and the extensions are part of that. 'Cause the extensions provide complimentary tooling for that local experience. >> You guys have done an amazing job. I want to give you personal props. I've been following Docker from the beginning when they had the pivot, they sold the enterprise to Mirantis, went back to the roots, modernized, riding the wave. You guys are having a good time. I got to ask the question 'cause people always want to know 'cause open source is about transparency. How you guys making your money? Business is good. How's that work and what was the lucky, what was the not lucky strike, but what was the aha moment? What was the trigger that just made you just kick in this new monetization growth wave? >> So the monetization is per seat, per developer seat. And that changed in November 2019. We were pricing on the server side before, and as you said, we sold that off. And what changed is some of the trends we were talking about that the realization by all organizations that they had to become software companies. And Docker provided the productivity in an engineered desktop product and the trusted content, it provided the productivity safely to developers. And frankly then we priced it at a rate that is very reasonable from an economic standpoint. If you look at developer productivity, developers are paid anywhere from 150 to 300 to 400, 500,000 even higher. >> But when you're paying your developers that much, then productivity is a premium. And what we were asking for from companies from a licensing standpoint was really a modest relative to the making those developers product. >> It's not like Oracle. I mean talk about extracting the value out of the customer. But your point is your positioning is always stay quarter of the open source, but for companies that adopt the structural change to be developer first, a software company, there's a premium to pay because you devalue there. >> And need the tooling to roll it out at scales. So the companies are paying us. They're rolling it out to tens of thousand developers, John. So they need management, they need visibility, they need guardrails that are all around the desktop. So, but just to put a stat on it, so to your point about open source and the freemium wheel working, of our 13 million Docker accounts, 12 are free, about a million are paid for accounts. And that's by design because the open source. >> And you're not gouging developers per se, it's just, not gouging anyone, but you're not taking money out of their hands. It's the company. >> If the company is paying for their productivity so that they can build safely. >> More goodness more for the developer. >> That's right. That's right. >> Gouging would be more like the Oracle strategy. Don't comment. You don't need to comment. I keep saying that, but it's not like you're taxing. It's not a heavy. >> No, $5 a month, $9 a month, $24 a month depending on level. >> But I think the big aha to me and in my opinion is that you nailed the structural change culturally for a company. If they adopt the software ecosystem approach for transforming their business, they got to pay for it. So like a workflow, it's a developer. >> It's another tool. I mean, do they pay for their spreadsheet software? Do they pay for their back office ERP software? They do >> That's my point. >> to make those people popular or sorry, make those people successful, those employees successful. This is a developer tool to make developer successful. >> It's a great, great business model. Congratulations. What's next for you guys? What are you looking for? You just had your community events, you got DockerCon coming up next year. What's on the horizon for you? Put a plugin for the company. What are you looking for? Hiring? >> Yeah, so we're growing like gangbusters. We grew from 60 with the reset. We're now above 300 and we're continuing to grow despite this economic climate. Like our customers are very much investing in software capabilities. So that means they're investing in Docker. So we're looking for roles across the board, software engineers, product managers, designers, marketing, sales, customer success. So if you're interested, please reach out. The next year is going to be really interesting because we're bringing to market products that are doubling down on these areas, doubling down a developer productivity, doubling down on safety to make it even more just automatic that developers just build so they don't have to think about it. They don't need a new tool just to be safer. We hinted a bit about automating SBOM creation. You can see more of that pull through. And in particular, developers want to make the right decision. Everyone comes to work wanting to make the right decision. But what they often lack is context. They often lack like, well, is this bit of code safe or not? Or is this package that I just downloaded over here safe or not? And so you're going to see us roll out additional capabilities that give them very explicit contextual guidance of like, should you use this or not? Or here's a better version over here, a safer version over there. So stay tuned for some exciting stuff. >> It's going to be a massive developer growth wave coming even bigger we've ever seen. Final questions just while I got you here. Where do you see WebAssembly, Wasm going? If you had to throw a dart at the board out a couple years, what does it turn into? >> Yeah, so I think it's super exciting. Super exciting, John. And there's three use cases today. There's browser, there's edge, and there's service side in the data center of the cloud. We see the edge taking off in the next couple years. It's just such a straight line through from what they're doing today and the value that standing up a single service on the edge go. The service side needs some work on the Wasm runtime. The Wasm runtime is not multi-threaded today. And so there's some deep, deep technical work that's going on. The community's doing a fantastic job, but that'll take a while to play through. Browsers also making good progress. There's a component model that Wasm's working on that'll really ignite the industry. That is going to take another couple years as well. So I'd say let's start with the edge use case. Let's get everyone excited about that value proposition. And these other two use cases will come along. >> It'll all work itself out in the wash as open source always does. Scott Johnston, the Chief Executive Officer at Docker. Took over at the reset, kicking butt and taking names. Congratulations. You guys are doing great. Continue to power the developer movement. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks so much. Pleasure to be here. >> We're bringing you all the action here. Extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, day one of three days of wall-to-wall live coverages. We'll be back for our next guest after this short break. (gentle music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS RE:INFORCE 22. I'm John Furrier, your host with Dave Vellante co-host of theCUBE, and Shreyans Metah, CTO and founder of Cequence Security. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah. Thanks for having me here. >> So when we chatted you were part of the startup showcase. You guys are doing great. Congratulations on your business success. I mean, you guys got a good product in hot market. >> Yeah. >> You're here before we get into it. I want to get your perspective on the keynote and the talk tracks here and the show. But for the folks that don't know you guys, explain what you guys, take a minute to explain what you guys do and, and key product. >> Yeah, so we are the unified API protection place, but I mean a lot of people don't know what unified API protection is but before I get into that, just just talking about Cequence, we've been around since 2014. But we are protecting close to 6 billion API transactions every day. We are protecting close to 2 billion customer accounts, more than 2 trillion dollars in customer assets and a hundred million plus sort of, data points that we look at across customer base. That's that's who we are. >> I mean, of course we all know APIs is, is the basis of cloud computing and you got successful companies like Stripe, for instance, you know, you put API and you got a financial gateway, billions of transactions. What's the learnings. And now we're in a mode now where single point of failure is a problem. You got more automation you got more reasoning coming a lot more computer science next gen ML, AI there too. More connections, no perimeter. Right? More and more use cases, more in the cloud. >> Yeah. So what, what we are seeing today is, I mean from six years ago to now, when we started, right? Like the monolith apps are breaking down into microservices, right? What effectively, what that means is like every of the every such microservices talking APIs, right? So what used to be a few million web applications have now become billions of APIs that are communicating with each other. I mean, if you look at the, I mean, you spoke about IOT earlier, I call, I call like a Tesla is an application on four wheels that is communicating to its cloud over APIs. So everything is API yesterday. 80% traffic on internet is APIs. >> Now that's dated transit right there. (laughing) Couldn't resist. >> Yeah. >> Fully encrypted too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, well hopefully. >> Maybe, maybe, maybe. (laughing) We dunno yet, but seriously everything is talking to an API. >> Yeah. >> Every application. >> Yeah. And, and there is no single choke point, right? Like you spoke about it. Like everybody is hosting their application in the cloud environments of their choice, AWS being one of them. But it's not the only one. Right? The, the, your APIs are hosted behind a CDN. Your APIs are hosted on behind an API gateway behind a load balancer in guest controllers. There is no single. >> So what's the problem? What's the problem now that you're solving? Because one was probably I can imagine connecting people, connecting the APIs. Now you've got more operational data. >> Yeah. >> Potential security hacks? More surface area? What's the what's what are you facing? >> Well, I can speak about some of the, our, some of the well known sort of exploits that have been well published, right. Everybody gets exploited, but I mean some of the well knowns. Now, if you, if you heard about Expedian last year there was a third party API that was exposing your your credit scores without proper authentication. Like Facebook had Ebola vulnerability sometime ago, where people could actually edit somebody else's videos online. Peloton again, a well known one. So like everybody is exposed, right. But that is the, the end results. All right? But it all starts with people don't even know where their APIs are and then you have to secure it all the way. So, I mean, ultimately APIs are prone to business logic attacks, fraud, and that's what, what you need to go ahead and protect. >> So is that the first question is, okay, what APIs do I need to protect? I got to take a API portfolio inventory. Is that? >> Yeah, so I think starting point is where. Where are my APIs? Right, so we spoke about there's no single choke point. Right, so APIs could be in, in your cloud environment APIs could be behind your cloud front, like we have here at RE:INFORCE today. So APIs could be behind your AKS, Ingrid controllers API gateways. And it's not limited to AWS alone, right. So, so knowing the unknown is, is the number one problem. >> So how do I find him? I asked Fred, Hey, where are our API? No, you must have some automated tooling to help me. >> Yeah, so, I, Cequence provides an option without any integration, what we call it, the API spider. Whereas like we give you visibility into your entire API attack surface without any integration into any of these services. Where are your APIs? What's your API attack surface about? And then sort of more details around that as well. But that is the number one. Is that agent list or is that an agent? >> There's no agent. So that means you can just sign up on our portal and then, then, then fire it away. And within a few minutes to an hour, we'll give you complete visibility into where your API is. >> So is it a full audit or is it more of a discovery? >> Or both? >> So, so number one, it's it's discovery, but we are also uncovering some of the potential vulnerabilities through zero knowledge. Right? So. (laughing) So, we've seen a ton of lock for J exposed server still. Like recently, there was an article that lock four J is going to be endemic. That is going to be here. >> Long time. >> (laughs) For, for a very long time. >> Where's your mask on that one? That's the Covid of security. >> Yeah. Absolutely absolutely. So, you need to know where your assets are what are they exposing? So, so that is the first step effectively discovering your attack surface. Yeah. >> I'm sure it's a efficiency issue too, with developers. The, having the spider allows you to at least see what's connecting out there versus having a meeting and going through code reviews. >> Yeah. Right? Is that's another big part of it? >> So, it is actually the last step, but you have, you actually go through a journey. So, so effectively, once you're discovering your assets you actually need to catalog it. Right. So, so I know where they're hosted but what are developers actually rolling out? Right. So they are updating your, the API endpoints on a daily basis, if not hourly basis. They have the CACD pipelines. >> It's DevOps. (laughing) >> Welcome to DevOps. It's actually why we'll do it. >> Yeah, and people have actually in the past created manual ways to catalog their APIs. And that doesn't really work in this new world. >> Humans are terrible at manual catalogization. >> Exactly. So, cataloging is really the next step for them. >> So you have tools for that that automate that using math, presumably. >> Exactly. And then we can, we can integrate with all these different choke points that we spoke about. There's no single choke points. So in any cloud or any on-prem environment where we actually integrate and give you that catalog of your APIs, that becomes your second step really. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so. >> What's the third step? There's the third step and then compliance. >> Compliance is the next one. So basically catalog >> There's four steps. >> Actually, six. So I'll go. >> Discovery, catalog, then compliance. >> Yeah. Compliance is the next one. So compliance is all about, okay, I've cataloged them but what are they really exposing? Right. So there could be PII information. There could be credit card, information, health information. So, I will treat every API differently based on the information that they're actually exposing. >> So that gives you a risk assessment essentially. >> Exactly. So you can, you can then start looking into, okay. I might have a few thousand API endpoints, like, where do I prioritize? So based on the risk exposure associated with it then I can start my journey of protecting so. >> That that's the remediation that's fixing it. >> Okay. Keep going. So that's, what's four. >> Four. That was that one, fixing. >> Yeah. >> Four is the risk assessment? >> So number four is detecting abuse. >> Okay. >> So now that I know my APIs and each API is exposing different business logic. So based on the business you are in, you might have login endpoints, you might have new account creation endpoint. You might have things around shopping, right? So pricing information, all exposed through APIs. So every business has a business logic that they end up exposing. And then the bad guys are abusing them. In terms of scraping pricing information it could be competitors scraping pricing. They will, we are doing account take. So detecting abuse is the first step, right? The fifth one is about preventing that because just getting visibility into abuse is not enough. I should be able to, to detect and prevent, natively on the platform. Because if you send signals to third party platforms like your labs, it's already too late and it's too course grain to be able to act on it. And the last step is around what you actually spoke about developers, right? Like, can I shift security towards the left, but it's not about shifting left. Just about shifting left. You obviously you want to bring in security to your CICD pipelines, to your developers, so that you have a full spectrum of API securities. >> Sure enough. Dave and I were talking earlier about like how cloud operations needs to look the same. >> Yeah. >> On cloud premise and edge. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Edge is a wild card. Cause it's growing really fast. It's changing. How do you do that? Cuz this APIs will be everywhere. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys going to reign that in? What's the customers journey with you as they need to architect, not just deploy but how do you engage with the customer who says, "I have my environment. I'm not going to be to have somebody on premise and edge. I'll use some other clouds too. But I got to have an operating environment." >> Yeah. "That's pure cloud." >> So, we need, like you said, right, we live in a heterogeneous environment, right? Like effectively you have different, you have your edge in your CDN, your API gateways. So you need a unified view because every gateway will have a different protection place and you can't deal with 5 or 15 different tools across your various different environments. So you, what we provide is a unified view, number one and the unified way to protect those applications. So think of it like you have a data plane that is sprinkled around wherever your edges and gateways and risk controllers are and you have a central brains to actually manage it, in one place in a unified way. >> I have a computer science or computer architecture question for you guys. So Steven Schmidt again said single controls or binary states will fail. Obviously he's talking from a security standpoint but I remember the days where you wanted a single point of control for recovery, you talked about microservices. So what's the philosophy today from a recovery standpoint not necessarily security, but recovery like something goes wrong? >> Yeah. >> If I don't have a single point of control, how do I ensure consistency? So do I, do I recover at the microservice level? What's the philosophy today? >> Yeah. So the philosophy really is, and it's very much driven by your developers and how you want to roll out applications. So number one is applications will be more rapidly developed and rolled out than in the past. What that means is you have to empower your developers to use any cloud and serverless environments of their choice and it will be distributed. So there's not going to be a single choke point. What you want is an ability to integrate into that life cycle and centrally manage that. So there's not going to be a single choke point but there is going to be a single control plane to manage them off, right. >> Okay. >> So you want that unified, unified visibility and protection in place to be able to protect these. >> So there's your single point of control? What about the company? You're in series C you've raised, I think, over a hundred million dollars, right? So are you, where are you at? Are you scaling now? Are you hiring sales people or you still trying to sort of be careful about that? Can you help us understand where you're at? >> Yeah. So we are absolutely scaling. So, we've built a product that is getting, that is deployed already in all these different verticals like ranging from finance, to detail, to social, to telecom. Anybody who has exposure to the outside world, right. So product that can scale up to those demands, right? I mean, it's not easy to scale up to 6 billion requests a day. So we've built a solid platform. We've rolled out new products to complete the vision. In terms of the API spider, I spoke about earlier. >> The unified, >> The unified API protection covers three aspects or all aspects of API life cycle. We are scaling our teams from go to market motion. We brought in recently our chief marketing officer our chief revenue officer as well. >> So putting all the new, the new pieces in place. >> Yeah. >> So you guys are like API observability on steroids. In a way, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Cause you're doing the observability. >> Yes. >> You're getting the data analysis for risk. You're having opportunities and recommendations around how to manage the stealthy attacks. >> From a full protection perspective. >> You're the API store. >> Yeah. >> So you guys are what we call best of breed. This is a trend we're seeing, pick something that you're best in breed in. >> Absolutely. >> And nail it. So you're not like an observability platform for everything. >> No. >> You guys pick the focus. >> Specifically, APS. And, so basically your, you can have your existing tools in place. You will have your CDN, you will have your graphs in place. So, but for API protection, you need something specialized and that stuff. >> Explain why I can't just rely on CDN infrastructure, for this. >> So, CDNs are, are good for content delivery. They do your basic TLS, and things like that. But APIs are all about your applications and business that you're exposing. >> Okay, so you, >> You have no context around that. >> So, yeah, cause this is, this is a super cloud vision that we're seeing of structural change in the industry, a new thing that's happening in real time. Companies like yours are be keeping a focus and nailing it. And now the customer's can assemble these services and company. >> Yeah. - Capabilities, that's happening. And it's happening like right now, structural change has happened. That's called the cloud. >> Yes. >> Cloud scale. Now this new change, best of brief, what are the gaps? Because I'm a customer. I got you for APIs, done. You take the complexity away at scale. I trust you. Where are the other gaps in my architecture? What's new? Cause I want to run cloud operations across all environments and across clouds when appropriate. >> Yeah. >> So I need to have a full op where are the other gaps? Where are the other best of breed components that need to be developed? >> So it's about layered, the layers that you built. Right? So, what's the thing is you're bringing in different cloud environments. That is your infrastructure, right? You, you, you either rely on the cloud provider for your security around that for roll outs and operations. Right? So then is going to be the next layer, which is about, is it serverless? Is it Kubernetes? What about it? So you'll think about like a service mesh type environment. Ultimately it's all about applications, right? That's, then you're going to roll out those applications. And that's where we actually come in. Wherever you're rolling out your applications. We come in baked into that environment, and for giving you that visibility and control, protection around that. >> Wow, great. First of all, APIs is the, is what cloud is based on. So can't go wrong there. It's not a, not a headwind for you guys. >> Absolutely. >> Great. What's a give a quick plug for the company. What are you guys looking to do hire? Get customers who's uh, when, what, what's the pitch? >> So like I started earlier, Cequence is around unified API protection, protecting around the full life cycle of your APIs, ranging from discovery all the way to, to testing. So, helping you throughout the, the life cycle of APIs, wherever those APIs are in any cloud environment. On-prem or in the cloud in your serverless environments. That's what Cequence is about. >> And you're doing billions of transactions. >> We're doing 6 billion requests every day. (laughing) >> Which is uh, which is, >> A lot. >> Unheard for a lot of companies here on the floor today. >> Sure is. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, sure appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> Good, congratulations to your success. >> Thank you. >> Cequence Security here on theCUBE at RE:INFORCE. I'm chatting with Dave Vellante, more coverage after this short break. (upbeat, gentle music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of PagerDuty Summit 22. Lisa Martin with you here on the ground. I've got one of our alumni back with me. Sean Scott joins me, the Chief Product Officer at PagerDuty. It's great to have you here in person. >> Super great to be here in person. >> Isn't it nice? >> Quite a change, quite a change. >> It is a change. We were talking before we went live about it. That's that readjustment to actually being with another human, but it's a good readjustment to have >> Awesome readjustment. I've been traveling more and more in the past few weeks and just speaking the offices, seeing the people the energy we get is the smiles, it's amazing. So it's so much better than just sitting at your home and. >> Oh, I couldn't agree more. For me it's the energy and the CEO of DocuSign talked about that with Jennifer during her fireside chat this morning, but yes, finally, someone like me who doesn't like working from home but as one of the things that you talked about in your keynote this morning was the ways traditionally that we've been working are no longer working. Talk to me about the future of work. What does it look like from PagerDuty's lens? >> Sure. So there's a few things. If we just take a step back and think about, what your day looks like from all the different slacks, chats, emails, you have your dashboards, you have more slacks coming in, you have more emails coming in, more chat and so just when you start the day off, you think you know what you're doing and then it kind of blows up out of the gate and so what we're all about is really trying to revolutionize operations so how do you help make sense of all the chaos that's happening and how do you make it simpler so you can get back to doing the more meaningful work and leave the tedium to the machines and just automate. >> That would be critical. One of the things that such an interesting dynamic two years that we've had obviously here we are in San Francisco with virtual event this year but there's so many problems out there that customer landscape's dealing with the great resignation. The data deluge, there's just data coming in everywhere and we have this expectation when we're on the consumer side, that we're going to be that a business will know us and have enough context to make us that the next best offer that actually makes sense but now what we're seeing is like the great resignation and the data overload is really creating for many organizations, this operational complexity that's now a problem really amorphously across the organization. It's no longer something that the back office has to deal with or just the front office, it's really across. >> Yeah, that's right. So you think about just the customer's experience, their expectations are higher than ever. I think there's been a lot of great consumer products that have taught the world, what good looks like, and I came from a consumer background and we measured the customer experience in milliseconds and so customers talking about minutes or hours of outages, customers are thinking in milliseconds so that's the disconnect and so, you have to be focused at that level and have everybody in your organization focused, thinking about milliseconds of customer experience, not seconds, minutes, hours, if that's where you're at, then you're losing customers. And then you think about, you mentioned the great resignation. Well, what does that mean for a given team or organization? That means lost institutional knowledge. So if you have the experts and they leave now, who's the experts? And do you have the processes and the tools and the runbooks to make sure that nothing falls on the ground? Probably not. Most of the people that we talk to, they're trying to figure it out as they go and they're getting better but there's a lot of institutional knowledge that goes out the door when people leave. And so part of our solution is also around our runbook automation and our process automation and some of our announcements today really help address that problem to keep the business running, keep the operations running, keep everything kind of moving and the customers happy ultimately and keep your business going where it needs to go. >> That customer experience is critical for organizations in every industry these days because we don't to your point. We'll tolerate milliseconds, but that's about it. Talk to me about you did this great keynote this morning that I had a chance to watch and you talked about how PagerDuty is revolutionizing operations and I thought, I want you to be able to break that down for this audience who may not have heard that. What are those four tenants or revolutionizing operations that PagerDuty is delivering to ORGS? >> Sure, so it starts with the data. So you mentioned the data deluge that's happening to everybody, right? And so we actually do, we integrate with over 650 systems to bring all that data in, so if you have an API or webhook, you can actually integrate with PagerDuty and push this data into PagerDuty and so that's where it starts, all these integrations and it's everything from a develop perspective, your CI/CD pipelines, your code repositories, from IT we have those systems are instrumented as well, even marketing, more tech stacks we can actually instrument and pull data in. The next step is now we have all this data, how do we make sense of it? So, we think we have machine learning algorithms that really help you focus your attention and kind of point you to the really relevant work, part of that is also noise suppression. So, our algorithms can suppress noise about 98% of the noise can just be eliminated and that helps you really focus where you need to spend your time 'cause if you think about human time and attention, it's pretty expensive and it's probably one of your company's most precious resources is that human time and so you want the humans doing the really meaningful work. Next step is automation, which is okay. We want the humans doing the special work, so what's the TDM? What's the toil that we can get rid of and push that to the machines 'cause machines are really good at doing very easy, repetitive task and there's a lot of them that we do day in, day out. The next step is just orchestrating the work and putting, getting everybody in the organization on the same page and that's where this morning I talked about our customer service operations product into the customer service is on the front lines and they're often getting signals from actual customers that nobody else in the organization may not even be aware of it yet So, I was running a system before and all our metrics are good and you get a customer feedback saying, "This isn't working for me," and you go look at the metrics and your dashboards and all looks good and then you go back and talk to the customer some more and they're like, "No, it's still not working," and you go back to your data, you're back to your dashboards, back to your metrics and sure enough, we had an instrumentation issue but the customer was giving us that feedback and so customer service is really on the front lines and they're often the kind of the unsung heroes for your customers but they're actually really helping and make sure that everything, the right signals are coming to the dev team, to the owners that own it and even in the case when you think you have everything instrumented, you may be missing something and that's where they can really help but our customer service operations product really helps bring everybody on the same page and then as the development teams and the IT teams and the SRA has pushed information back to customer service, then they're equipped, empowered to go tell the customer, "Okay, we know about the issue. Thank you." We should have it up in the next 30 minutes or whatever it is, five minutes, hopefully it's faster than longer, but they can inform the customer so to help that customer experience as opposed to the customer saying, "Oh, I'm just going to go shop somewhere else," or "I'm going to go buy somewhere else or do something else." And the last part is really around, how do we really enable our customers with the best practices? So those million users, the 21,000 companies in organizations we're working with, we've learned a lot around what good looks like. And so we've really embedded that back into our product in terms of our service standards which is really helps SRES and developers set quality standards for how services should be implemented at their company and then they can actually monitor and track across all their teams, what's the quality of the services and this team against different teams in their organization and really raise the quality of the overall system. >> So for businesses and like I mentioned, DocuSign was on this morning, I know some great brand customers that you guys have. I've seen on the website, Peloton Slack, a couple that popped out to me. When you're able to work with a customer to help them revolutionize operations, what are some of the business impacts? 'Cause some of the things that jump out to me would be like reduction in churn, retention rate or some of those things that are really overall impactful to the revenue of a business. >> Absolutely. And so there's a couple different parts of it. One is, all the work what PagerDuty is known for is orchestrating the work for a service outage or a website outage and so that's actually easy to measure 'cause you can measure your revenue that's coming in or missed revenue and how much we've shortened that. So that's the, I guess that's our kind of the history and our legacy but now we've moved into a lot of the cost side as well. So, helping customers really understand from an outage perspective where to focus our time as opposed to just orchestrating the work. Well now, we can say, we think we have a new feature we launched last year called Probable Origin. So when you have an outage, we can actually narrow in where we think the outage and just give you a few clues of this looks anomalous, for example. So let's start here. So that still focus on the top line and then from an automation perspective, there's lots and lots of just toil and noise that people are dealing with on a day in, day out basis and then some of it's easy work, some of it's harder work. One of the ones I really like is our automated diagnostics. So, if you have an incident, one of the first things you have to do is you have to go gather telemetry of what's actually happening on the servers, to say, is the CPU look good? Does the memory look good? Does the disc look good? Does the network look good? And that's all perfect work for automation. And so we can run our automated diagnostics and have all that data pumped directly into the incident so when the responder engages, it's all right there waiting for them and they don't have to go do all that basic task of getting data, cutting and pasting into the incident or if you're using one of those old ticketing systems, cutting and pacing into a a tickety system, it's all right there waiting for you. And that's on average 15 minutes during an outage of time that's saved. And the nice thing about that is that can all be kicked off at time zero so you can actually call from our event orchestration product, you can call directly into automation actions right there when that event first comes in. So you think about, there's a warning for a CPU and instantly it kicks off this diagnostics and then within seconds or even minutes, it's in the incident waiting for you to take action. >> One of the things that you also shared this morning that I loved was one of the stats around customer sale point that they had 60 different alerts coming in and PagerDuty was able to reduce that to one alert. So, 60 X reduction in alerts, getting rid of a lot of noise allowing them to focus on really those probably key high escalations that are going to make the biggest impact to their customers and to their business. >> That's right. You think about, you have a high severity incident like they actually had a database failure and so, when you're in the heat of the moment and you start getting these alerts, you're trying to figure out, is that one incident? Is it 10 incidents? Is it a hundred incidents that I'm having to deal with? And you probably have a good feeling like there's, I know it's probably this thing but you're not quite sure and so, with our machine learning we're able to eliminate a lot of the noise and in this case it was, going from 60 alerts down to one, just to let you know, this is the actual incident, but then also to focus your attention on where we think may be the cause and you think about all the different teams that historically have been had to pull in for a large scale incident. We can quickly narrow into the root cause and just get the right people involved. So we don't have these conference bridges of a hundred people on which you hear about. When these large cottages happen that everyone's on a call across the entire company and it's not just the dev teams and IT teams, you have PR, you have legal, you have everybody's involved in these. And so the more that we can workshop their work and get smarter about using machine learning, some of these other technologies then the more efficient it is for our customers and ultimately the better it is for their customers. >> Right and hopefully, PR, HR, legal doesn't have to be some of those incident response leaders that right now we're seeing across the organization. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So when you're talking with customers and some of the things that you announced, you mentioned automated actions, incident workflows, what are you hearing from the voice of the customer as the chief product officer and what influence did that have in terms of this year's vision for the PagerDuty Summit? >> Sure. We listen to our customers all the time. It's one of our leadership principles and really trying to hear their feedback and it was interesting. I got sent some of the chat threads during the keynote afterwards, and there's a lot of excitement about the products we announced. So the first one is incident workflows, and this is really, it's a no code workflow based on or a recent acquisition of a company called Catalytic and what it does is it's, you can think of as kind of our next generation of response plays so you can actually go in and and build a workflow using no code tooling to say, when this incident happens or this type of incident happens, here's what that process looks like and so back to your original comment around the great resignation that loss institutional knowledge, well now, you're building all this into your processes through your incident response. And so, I think the incident workflows, if you want to create a incident specific slack channel or an incident specific zoom bridge, or even just in status updates, all that is right there for you and you can use our out of the box orchestrations or you can define your own 'cause we have back to the, our customer list, we have some of the biggest companies in the world, as customers and we have a very opinionated product and so if you're new to the whole DevOps and full service ownership, we help you through that. But then, a lot of our companies are evolving along that continuum, the operational maturity model continuum. And at the other end, we have customers that say "This is great, but we want to extend it. We want to like call this person or send this or update this system here." And so that's where the incident workflows is really powerful and it lets our customers just tailor it to their processes and really extend it for them. >> And that's GA later this year? >> Later this year, yes, we'll start ING probably the next few months and then GA later this year. >> Got it. Last question, as we're almost out of time here, what are some of the things that as you talk to customers day in and day out, as you see you saw the chats from this morning's live keynote, the excitement, the trust that PagerDuty is building with its customers, its partners, et cetera, What excites you about the future? >> So it's really why I came to PagerDuty. I've been here about a year and a half now, but revolutionizing operations, that's a big statement and I think we need it. I think Jennifer said in her keynote today, work is broken and I think our data, we surveyed our customers earlier this year and 42% of the respondents were working more hours in 2021 compared to 2020. And I don't think anyone goes home and if I could only work more hours, I think there's some and if I could only do more of this like TDM, the TDM, more toils, if I could only do more of that, I think life would be so good. We don't hear that. We don't hear that a lot. We hear about there's a lot of noise. We have a massive attrition that every company does. That's the type of feedback that we get and so we're really, that's what gets me excited about, the tools that we're building that and especially when I think just seeing the chat even this morning about some of the announcements, it shows we've been listening and it shows the excitement in our customers when they're, lots of I'm going to use this tool, that tool, I can just use PagerDuty which is awesome. >> The momentum is clear and it's palpable and I love being a part of that. Thank you so much Sean for joining me on theCube this afternoon, talking about what's new, what's exciting and how you guys are fixing work that's broken that validated me thinking the work was broken so thank you. >> Happy to be here and thanks for having me. >> My pleasure. For Sean Scott. I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCube's coverage of PagerDuty Summit 22 on the ground from the San Francisco. (soft music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome, everyone, to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. And this episode two of season two is called "Data as Code," the ongoing series covering exciting new startups in the AWS ecosystem. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Today, we're excited to be joined by Jon Dahl, who is the co-founder and CEO of MUX, a hot new startup building cloud video for developers, video with data. John, great to see you. We did an interview on theCube Conversation. Went into big detail of the awesomeness of your company and the trend that you're on. Welcome back. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> So, video is everywhere, and video for pivot to video, you hear all these kind of terms in the industry, but now more than ever, video is everywhere and people are building with it, and it's becoming part of the developer experience in applications. So people have to stand up video into their code fast, and data is code, video is data. So you guys are specializing this. Take us through that dynamic. >> Yeah, so video clearly is a growing part of how people are building applications. We see a lot of trends of categories that did not involve video in the past making a major move towards video. I think what Peloton did five years ago to the world of fitness, that was not really a big category. Now video fitness is a huge thing. Video in education, video in business settings, video in a lot of places. I think Marc Andreessen famously said, "Software is eating the world" as a pretty, pretty good indicator of what the internet is actually doing to the economy. I think there's a lot of ways in which video right now is eating software. So categories that we're not video first are becoming video first. And that's what we help with. >> It's not obvious to like most software developers when they think about video, video industries, it's industry shows around video, NAB, others. People know, the video folks know what's going on in video, but when you start to bring it mainstream, it becomes an expectation in the apps. And it's not that easy, it's almost a provision video is hard for a developer 'cause you got to know the full, I guess, stack of video. That's like low level and then kind of just basic high level, just play something. So, in between, this is a media stack kind of dynamic. Can you talk about how hard it is to build video for developers? How is it going to become easier? >> Yeah, I mean, I've lived this story for too long, maybe 13 years now, when I first build my first video stack. And, you know, I'll sometimes say, I think it's kind of a miracle every time a video plays on the internet because the internet is not a medium designed for video. It's been hijacked by video, video is 70% of internet traffic today in an unreliable, sort of untrusted network space, which is totally different than how television used to work or cable or things like that. So yeah, so video is hard because there's so many problems from top to bottom that need to be solved to make video work. So you have to worry about video compression encoding, which is a complicated topic in itself. You have to worry about delivering video around the world at scale, delivering it at low cost, at low latency, with good performance, you have to worry about devices and how every device, Android, iOS, web, TVs, every device handles video differently and so there's a lot of work there. And at the end of the day, these are kind of unofficial standards that everyone's using. So one of the miracles is like, if you want to watch a video, somehow you have to get like Apple and Google to agree on things, which is not always easy. And so there's just so many layers of complexity that are behind it. I think one way to think about it is, if you want to put an image online, you just put an image online. And if you want to put video online, you build complex software, and that's the exact problem that MUX was started to help solve. >> It's interesting you guys have almost creating a whole new category around video infrastructure. And as you look at, you mentioned stack, video stack. I'm looking at a market where the notion of a media stack is developing, and you're seeing these verticals having similar dynamics with cloud. And if you go back to the early days of cloud computing, what was the developer experience or entrepreneurial experience, you had to actually do a lot of stuff before you even do anything, provision a server. And this has all kind of been covered in great detail in the glory of Agile and whatnot. It was expensive, and you had that actually engineer before you could even stand up any code. Now you got video that same thing's happening. So the developers have two choices, go do a bunch of stuff complex, building their own infrastructure, which is like building a data center, or lean in on MUX and say, "Hey, thank you for doing all that years of experience building out the stacks to take that hard part away," but using APIs that they have. This is a developer focused problem that you guys are solving. >> Yeah, that's right. my last company was a company called Zencoder, that was an API to video encoding. So it was kind of an API to a small part of what MUX does today, just one of those problems. And I think the thing that we got right at Zencoder, that we're doing again here at MUX, was building four developers first. So our number one persona is a software developer. Not necessarily a video expert, just we think any developer should be able to build with video. It shouldn't be like, yeah, got to go be a specialist to use this technology, because it should become just of the internet. Video should just be something that any developer can work with. So yeah, so we build for developers first, which means we spend a lot of time thinking about API design, we spend a lot of time thinking about documentation, transparent pricing, the right features, great support and all those kind of things that tend to be characteristics of good developer companies. >> Tell me about the pipe lining of the products. I'm a developer, I work for a company, my boss is putting pressure on me. We need video, we have all this library, it's all stacking up. We hired some people, they left. Where's the video, we've stored it somewhere. I mean, it's a nightmare, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm cloud native, I got an API. I need to get my product to market fast, 'cause that is what Agile developers want. So how do you describe that acceleration for time to market? You mentioned you guys are API first, video first. How do these customers get their product into the market as fast as possible? >> Yeah, well, I mean the first thing we do is we put what we think is probably on average, three to four months of hard engineering work behind a single API call. So if you want to build a video platform, we tell our customers like, "Hey, you can do that." You probably need a team, you probably need video experts on your team so hire them or train them. And then it takes several months just to kind of to get video flowing. One API call at MUX gives you on-demand video or live video that works at scale, works around the world with good performance, good reliability, a rich feature set. So maybe just a couple specific examples, we worked with Robin Hood a few years ago to bring video into their newsfeed, which was hugely successful for them. And they went from talking to us for the first time to a big launch in, I think it was three months, but the actual code time there was like really short. I want to say they had like a proof of concept up and running in a couple days, and then the full launch in three months. Another customer of ours, Bandcamp, I think switched from a legacy provider to MUX in two weeks in band. So one of the big advantages of going a little bit higher in the abstraction layer than just building it yourself is that time to market. >> Talk about this notion of video pipeline 'cause I know I've heard people I talk about, "Hey, I just want to get my product out there. I don't want to get stuck in the weeds on video pipeline." What does that mean for folks that aren't understanding the nuances of video? >> Yeah, I mean, it's all the steps that it takes to publish video. So from ingesting the video, if it's live video from making sure that you have secure, reliable ingest of that live feed potentially around the world to the transcoding, which is we talked a little bit about, but it is a, you know, on its own is a massively complicated problem. And doing that, well, doing that well is hard. Part of the reason it's hard is you really have to know where you're publishing too. And you might want to transcode video differently for different devices, for different types of content. You know, the pipeline typically would also include all of the workflow items you want to do with the video. You want to thumbnail a video, you want clip, create clips of the video, maybe you want to restream the video to Facebook or Twitter or a social platform. You want to archive the video, you want it to be available for downloads after an event. If it's just a, if it's a VOD upload, if it's not live in the first place. You have all those things and you might want to do simulated live with the video. You might want to actually record something and then play it back as a live stream. So, the pipeline Ty typically refers to everything from the ingest of the video to the time that the bits are delivered to a device. >> You know, I hear a lot of people talking about video these days, whether it's events, training, just want peer to peer experience, video is powerful, but customers want to own their own platform, right? They want to have the infrastructure as a service. They kind of want platform as a service, this is cloud talk now, but they want to have their own capability to build it out. This allows them to get what they want. And so you see this, like, is it SaaS? Is it platform? People want customization? So kind of the general purpose video solution does it really exist or doesn't? I mean, 'cause this is the question. Can I just buy software and work or is it going to be customized always? How do you see that? Because this becomes a huge discussion point. Is it a SaaS product or someone's going to make a SaaS product? >> Yeah, so I think one of the most important elements of designing any software, but especially when you get into infrastructure is choosing an abstraction level. So if you think of computing, you can go all the way down to building a data center, you can go all the way down to getting a colo and racking a server like maybe some of us used to do, who are older than others. And that's one way to run a server. On the other extreme, you have just think of the early days of cloud competing, you had app engine, which was a really fantastic, really incredible product. It was one push deploy of, I think Python code, if I remember correctly, and everything just worked. But right in the middle of those, you had EC2, which was, EC2 is basically an API to a server. And it turns out that that abstraction level, not Colo, not the full app engine kind of platform, but the API to virtual server was the right abstraction level for maybe the last 15 years. Maybe now some of the higher level application platforms are doing really well, maybe the needs will shift. But I think that's a little bit of how we think about video. What developers want is an API to video. They don't want an API to the building blocks of video, an API to transcoding, to video storage, to edge caching. They want an API to video. On the other extreme, they don't want a big application that's a drop in white label video in a box like a Shopify kind of thing. Shopify is great, but developers don't want to build on top of Shopify. In the payments world developers want Stripe. And that abstraction level of the API to the actual thing you're getting tends to be the abstraction level that developers want to build on. And the reason for that is, it's the most productive layer to build on. You get maximum flexibility and also maximum velocity when you have that API directly to a function like video. So, we like to tell our customers like you, you own your video when you build on top of MUX, you have full control over everything, how it's stored, when it's stored, where it goes, how it's published, we handle all of the hard technology and we give our customers all of the flexibility in terms of designing their products. >> I want to get back some use case, but you brought that up I might as well just jump to my next point. I'd like you to come back and circle back on some references 'cause I know you have some. You said building on infrastructure that you own, this is a fundamental cloud concept. You mentioned API to a server for the nerds out there that know that that's cool, but the people who aren't super nerdy, that means you're basically got an interface into a server behind the scenes. You're doing the same for video. So, that is a big thing around building services. So what wide range of services can we expect beyond MUX? If I'm going to have an API to video, what could I do possibly? >> What sort of experience could you build? >> Yes, I got a team of developers saying I'm all in API to video, I don't want to do all that transit got straight there, I want to build experiences, video experiences on my app. >> Yeah, I mean, I think, one way to think about it is that, what's the range of key use cases that people do with video? We tend to think about six at MUX, one is kind of the places where the content is, the prop. So one of the things that use video is you can create great video. Think of online courses or fitness or entertainment or news or things like that. That's kind of the first thing everyone thinks of, when you think video, you think Netflix, and that's great. But we see a lot of really interesting uses of video in the world of social media. So customers of ours like Visco, which is an incredible photo sharing application, really for photographers who really care about the craft. And they were able to bring video in and bring that same kind of Visco experience to video using MUX. We think about B2B tools, videos. When you think about it, all video is, is a high bandwidth way of communicating. And so customers are as like HubSpot use video for the marketing platform, for business collaboration, you'll see a lot of growth of video in terms of helping businesses engage their customers or engage with their employees. We see live events obviously have been a massive category over the last few years. You know, we were all forced into a world where we had to do live events two years ago, but I think now we're reemerging into a world where the online part of a conference will be just as important as the in-person component of a conference. So that's another big use case we see. >> Well, full disclosure, if you're watching this live right now, it's being powered by MUX. So shout out, we use MUX on theCUBE platform that you're experiencing in this. Actually in real time, 'cause this is one application, there's many more. So video as code, is data as code is the theme, that's going to bring up the data ops. Video also is code because (laughs) it's just like you said, it's just communicating, but it gets converted to data. So data ops, video ops could be its own new category. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I mean, I think, I have a couple thoughts on that. The first thought is, video is a way that, because the way that companies interact with customers or users, it's really important to have good monitoring and analytics of your video. And so the first product we ever built was actually a product called MUX video, sorry, MUX data, which is the best way to monitor a video platform at scale. So we work with a lot of the big broadcasters, we work with like CBS and Fox Sports and Discovery. We work with big tech companies like Reddit and Vimeo to help them monitor their video. And you just get a huge amount of insight when you look at robust analytics about video delivery that you can use to optimize performance, to make sure that streaming works well globally, especially in hard to reach places or on every device. That's we actually build a MUX data platform first because when we started MUX, we spent time with some of our friends at companies like YouTube and Netflix, and got to know how they use data to power their video platforms. And they do really sophisticated things with data to ensure that their streams well, and we wanted to build the product that would help everyone else do that. So, that's one use. I think the other obvious use is just really understanding what people are doing with their video, who's watching what, what's engaging, those kind of things. >> Yeah, data is definitely there. You guys mentioned some great brands that are working with you guys, and they're doing it because of the developer experience. And I'd like you to explain, if you don't mind, in your words, why is the MUX developer experience so good? What are some of the results you're seeing from your customers? What are they saying to you? Obviously when you win, you get good feedback. What are some of the things that they're saying and what specific develop experiences do they like the best? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that the most gratifying thing about being a startup founder is when your customers like what you're doing. And so we get a lot of this, but it's always, we always pay attention to what customers say. But yeah, people, the number one thing developers say when they think about MUX is that the developer experience is great. I think when they say that, what they mean is two things, first is it's easy to work with, which helps them move faster, software velocity is so important. Every company in the world is investing and wants to move quickly and to build quickly. And so if you can help a team speed up, that's massively valuable. The second thing I think when people like our developer experience is, you know, in a lot of ways that think that we get out of the way and we let them do what they want to do. So well, designed APIs are a key part of that, coming back to abstraction, making sure that you're not forcing customers into decisions that they actually want to make themselves. Like, if our video player only had one design, that that would not be, that would not work for most developers, 'cause developers want to bring their own design and style and workflow and feel to their video. And so, yeah, so I think the way we do that is just think comprehensively about how APIs are designed, think about the workflows that users are trying to accomplish with video, and make sure that we have the right APIs, make sure they're the right information, we have the right webhooks, we have the right SDKs, all of those things in place so that they can build what they want. >> We were just having a conversation on theCUBE, Dave Vellante and I, and our team, and I'd love to get you a reaction to this. And it's more and more, a riff real quick. We're seeing a trend where video as code, data as code, media stack, where you're starting to see the emergence of the media developer, where the application of media looks a lot like kind of software developer, where the app, media as an app. It could be a chat, it could be a peer to peer video, it could be part of an event platform, but with all the recent advances, in UX designers, coders, the front end looks like an emergence of these creators that are essentially media developers for all intent and purpose, they're coding media. What's your reaction to that? How do you see that evolving? >> I think the. >> Or do you agree with it? >> It's okay. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, I think a couple things. I think one thing, I think this goes along through saying, but maybe it's disagreement, is that we don't think you should have to be an expert at video or at media to create and produce or create and publish good video, good audio, good images, those kind of things. And so, you know, I think if you look at software overall, I think of 10 years ago, the kind of DevOps movement, where there was kind of a movement away from specialization in software where the same software developer could build and deploy the same software developer maybe could do front end and back end. And we want to bring that to video as well. So you don't have to be a specialist to do it. On the other hand, I do think that investments and tooling, all the way from video creation, which is not our world, but there's a lot of amazing companies out there that are making it easier to produce video, to shoot video, to edit, a lot of interesting innovations there all the way to what we do, which is helping people stream and publish video and video experiences. You know, I think another way about it is, that tool set and companies doing that let anyone be a media developer, which I think is important. >> It's like DevOps turning into low-code, no-code, eventually it's just composability almost like just, you know, "Hey Siri, give me some video." That kind of thing. Final question for you why I got you here, at the end of the day, the decision between a lot of people's build versus buy, "I got to get a developer. Why not just roll my own?" You mentioned data center, "I want to build a data center." So why MUX versus do it yourself? >> Yeah, I mean, part of the reason we started this company is we have a pretty, pretty strong opinion on this. When you think about it, when we started MUX five years ago, six years ago, if you were a developer and you wanted to accept credit cards, if you wanted to bring payment processing into your application, you didn't go build a payment gateway. You just probably used Stripe. And if you wanted to send text messages, you didn't build your own SMS gateway, you probably used Twilio. But if you were a developer and you wanted to stream video, you built your own video gateway, you built your own video application, which was really complex. Like we talked about, you know, probably three, four months of work to get something basic up and running, probably not live video that's probably only on demand video at that point. And you get no benefit by doing it yourself. You're no better than anyone else because you rolled your own video stack. What you get is risk that you might not do a good job, maybe you do worse than your competitors, and you also get distraction where you've just taken, you take 10 engineers and 10 sprints and you apply it to a problem that doesn't actually really give you differentiated value to your users. So we started MUX so that people would not have to do that. It's fine if you want to build your own video platform, once you get to a certain scale, if you can afford a dozen engineers for a VOD platform and you have some really massively differentiated use case, you know, maybe, live is, I don't know, I don't have the rule of thumb, live videos maybe five times harder than on demand video to work with. But you know, in general, like there's such a shortage of software engineers today and software engineers have, frankly, are in such high demand. Like you see what happens in the marketplace and the hiring markets, how competitive it is. You need to use your software team where they're maximally effective, and where they're maximally effective is building differentiation into your products for your customers. And video is just not that, like very few companies actually differentiate on their video technology. So we want to be that team for everyone else. We're 200 people building the absolute best video infrastructure as APIs for developers and making that available to everyone else. >> John, great to have you on with the showcase, love the company, love what you guys do. Video as code, data as code, great stuff. Final plug for the company, for the developers out there and prospects watching for MUX, why should they go to MUX? What are you guys up to? What's the big benefit? >> I mean, first, just check us out. Try try our APIs, read our docs, talk to our support team. We put a lot of work into making our platform the best, you know, as you dig deeper, I think you'd be looking at the performance around, the global performance of what we do, looking at our analytics stack and the insight you get into video streaming. We have an emerging open source video player that's really exciting, and I think is going to be the direction that open source players go for the next decade. And then, you know, we're a quickly growing team. We're 60 people at the beginning of last year. You know, we're one 50 at the beginning of this year, and we're going to a add, we're going to grow really quickly again this year. And this whole team is dedicated to building the best video structure for developers. >> Great job, Jon. Thank you so much for spending the time sharing the story of MUX here on the show, Amazon Startup Showcase season two, episode two, thanks so much. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. This is season two, episode two, the ongoing series cover the most exciting startups from the AWS Cloud Ecosystem. Talking data analytics here, video cloud, video as a service, video infrastructure, video APIs, hottest thing going on right now, and you're watching it live here on theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Good morning. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin. We have two live sets here. We've got over a hundred guests on the program this week with our live sets of remote sets, talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And I'm pleased to be welcoming back. One of our cube alumni timbers. She ran the founder and CPO of Jenny-O to the program. Tom is going to be talking about why 2022 is the year open data architectures surpass the data warehouse Timur. Welcome back to the >>Cube. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's >>Great to be here at a live event in person, my goodness, sitting side by side with guests. Talk to me a little bit about before we kind of dig into the data lake house versus the data warehouse. I want to, I want to unpack that with you. Talk to me about what what's going on at Jemena you guys were on the program earlier this summer, but what are some of the things going on right now in the fall of 2021? >>Yeah, for us, it's a big year of, uh, a lot of product news, a lot of new products, new innovation, a company's grown a lot. We're, uh, you know, probably three times bigger than we were a year ago. So a lot of, a lot of new, new folks on the team and, uh, many, many new customers. >>It's good, always new customers, especially during the last 22 months, which have been obviously incredibly challenging, but I want to unpack this, the difference between a data lake and data lake house, but I love the idea of a lake house by the way, but talk to me about what the differences are similarities and how customers are benefiting. Sure. Yeah. >>I think you could think of the lake house as kind of the evolution of the lake, right? So we have, we've had data lakes for a while. Now, the transition to the cloud made them a lot more powerful and now a lot of new capabilities coming into the world of data lakes really make the, that whole kind of concept that whole architecture, much more powerful to the point that you really are not going to need a data warehouse anymore. Right. And so it kind of gives you the best of both worlds, all the advantages that we had with data lakes, the flexibility to use different processing engines, to have data in your own account and open formats, um, all those benefits, but also the benefits that you had with warehouses, where you could do transactions and get high performance for your, uh, BI workloads and things like that. So the lake house makes kind of both of those come together and gives you the, the benefits of both >>Elizabeth talk to me about from a customer lens perspective, what are some of the key benefits and how does the customer go about from say they've got data warehouses, data lakes to actually evolving to the lake house. >>You know, data warehouses have been around forever, right? And you know, there's, there's been some new innovation there as we've kind of moved to the cloud, but fundamentally there are very close and very proprietary architecture that gets very expensive quickly. And so, you know, with a data warehouse, you have to take your data and load it into the warehouse, right. You know, whether that's a, you know, Terra data or snowflake or any, any other, uh, you know, database out there, that's, that's what you do. You bring the data into the engine. Um, the data lake house is a really different architecture. It's one where you actually, you're having, you have data as its own tier, right? Stored in open formats, things like parquet files and iceberg tables. And you're basically bringing the engines to the data instead of the data to the engine. And so now all of a sudden you can start to take advantage of all this innovation that's happening on the same set of data without having to copy and move it around. So whether that's, you know, Dremio for high performance, uh, BI workloads and SQL type of analysis, a spark for kind of batch processing and machine learning, Flink for streaming. So lots of different technologies that you can use on the, on the same data and the data stays in the customer's own account, right? So S3 effectively becomes their new data warehouse. >>Okay. So it can imagine during the last 22 months of this scattered work from Eddie, and we're still in this work from anywhere environment with so much data being generated at the edge of the edge, expanding that bringing the engines to the data is probably now more timely than ever. >>Yeah. I think the, the growth in data, uh, you see it everywhere, right? That that's the reason so many companies like ourselves are doing so well. Right? It's, it's, there's so much new data, so many new use cases and every company wants to be data-driven right. They all want to be, you know, to, to democratize data within the organization. Um, you know, but you need the platforms to be able to do that. Right. And so, uh, that's very hard if you have to constantly move data around, if you have to take your data, you know, which maybe is landing in S3, but move it into, you know, subsets of it into a data warehouse. And then from there move, you know, substance of that into, you know, BI extracts, right? Tableau extracts power BI imports, and you have to create cubes and lots of copies within the data warehouse. There's no way you're going to be able to provide self-service and data democratization. And so really requires a new architecture. Um, and that's one of the main things that we've been focused on at Dremio, um, is really taking the, the, the lake house and the lake and making it, not just something that data scientists use for, you know, really kind of advanced use cases, but even your production BI workloads can actually now run on the lake house when you're using a SQL technology. Like, and then >>It's really critical because as you talked about this, you know, companies, every company, these days is a data company. If they're not, they have to be, or there's a competitor in the rear view mirror that is going to be able to take over what they're doing. So this really is really critical, especially considering another thing that we learned in the last 22 months is that there's no real-time data access is no longer, a nice to have. It's really an essential for businesses in any organization. >>I think, you know, we, we see it even in our own company, right? The folks that are joining the workforce now, they, they learn sequel in school, right. They, they, they don't want to report on their desk, printed out every Monday morning. They want access to the database. How do I connect my whatever tool I want, or even type sequel by hand. And I want access to the data and I want to just use it. Right. And I want the performance of course, to be fast because otherwise I'll get frustrated and I won't use it, which has been the status quo for a long time. Um, and that's basically what we're solving >>The lake house versus a data warehouse, better able to really facilitate data democratization across an organization. >>Yeah. Because there's a big, you know, people don't talk a lot about the story before the story, right. With, with a data warehouse, the data never starts there. Right. You typically first have your data in something like an S3 or perhaps in other databases, right. And then you have to kind of ETL at all into, um, into that warehouse. And that's a lot of work. And typically only a small subset of the data gets ETL into that data warehouse. And then the user wants to query something that's not in the warehouse. And somebody has to go from engineering, spend, you know, a month or two months, you know, respond to that ticket and wiring up some new ETL, uh, to get the data in. And so it's a big problem, right? And so if you can have a system that can query the data directly in S3 and even join it with sources, uh, outside of that things like your Oracle database, your, your SQL server database here, you know, Mongo, DB, et cetera. Well, now you can really have the ability to expose data to your, to your users within the company and make it very self-service. They can, they can query any data at any time and get a fast response time that that's, that's what they need >>At self-service is key there. Speaking of self-service and things that are new. I know you guys dromio cloud launched that recently, new SAS offering. Talk to me about that. What's going on there. Yeah. >>We want to stream your cloud. We, we spent about two years, um, working on that internally and, uh, really the goal was to simplify how we deliver all of the, kind of the benefits that we've had in our product. Right. Sub-second response times on the lake, a semantic layer, the ability to connect to multiple sources, but take away the pain of having to, you know, install and manage software. Right. And so we did it in a way that the user doesn't have to think about versions. They don't have to think about upgrades. They don't have to monitor anything. It's basically like running and using Gmail. Right? You log in, you, you get to use it, right. You don't have to be very sophisticated. There's no, not a lot of administration you have to do. Um, it basically makes it a lot, a lot simpler. >>And what's the adoption been like so far? >>It's been great. It's been limited availability, but we've been onboarding customers, uh, every week now. Um, many startups, many of the world's largest companies. So that's been, that's been really exciting actually. >>So quite a range of customers. And one of the things, it sounds like you want me to has grown itself during the pandemic. We've seen acceleration of, of that, of, of, uh, startups, of a lot of companies, of cloud adoption of migration. What are some, how have your customer conversations changed in the last 22 months as businesses and every industry kind of scrambled in the beginning to, to survive and now are realizing that they need to modernize, to thrive and to be competitive and to have competitive advantage. >>I think I've seen a few different trends here. One is certainly, there's been a lot of, uh, acceleration of movement to the cloud, right? With, uh, uh, you know, how different businesses have been impacted. It's required them to be more agile, more elastic, right. They don't necessarily know how much workload they're gonna have at any point in time. So having that flexibility, both in terms of the technology that can, you know, with Dremio cloud, we scale, for example, infinitely, like you can have, you know, one query a day, or you can have a thousand queries a second and the system just takes care of it. Right. And so that's really important to these companies that are going through, you know, being impacted in various different ways, right? You had the companies, you know, the Peloton and zooms of the world that were business was exploding. >>And then of course, you know, the travel and hospitality industries, and that went to zero, all of a sudden it's been recovering nicely, uh, you know, since then, but so that flexibility, um, has been really important to customers. I think the other thing is just they've realized that they have to leverage data, right? Because in parallel to this pandemic has been also really a boom in technology, right? And so every industry is being disrupted by new startups, whether it's the insurance industry, the financial services, a lot of InsureTech, FinTech, you know, different, uh, companies that are trying to take advantage of data. So if you, as a, as an enterprise are not doing that, you know, that's a problem. >>It is a problem. It's definitely something that I think every business and every industry needs to be very acutely aware of because from a competitive advantage perspective, you know, there's someone in that rear view mirror who is going to be focused on data. I have a real solid, modern data strategy. That's going to be able to take over if a company is resting on its laurels at all. So here we are at reinvent, they talked a lot about, um, I just came off of Adam psyllid speeds. So Lipsey's keynote. But talk to me about the jumbo AWS partnership. I know AWS its partner ecosystem is huge. You're one of the partners, but talk to me about what's going on with the partnership. How long have you guys been partners? What are the advantages for your customers? >>You know, we've been very close partners with AWS for, for a number of years now, and it kind of spans many different parts of AWS from kind of the, uh, the engineering organization. So very close relationship with the S3 team, the C2 team, uh, you know, just having dinner last night with, uh, Kevin Miller, the GM of S3. Um, and so that's kind of one side of things is really the engineering integration. You know, we're the first technology to integrate with AWS lake formation, which is Amazon's data lake security technology. So we do a lot of work together on kind of upcoming features that Amazon is releasing. Um, and then also they've been really helpful on the go-to-market side of things on the sales and marketing, um, whether it's, you know, blogs on the Amazon blog, where their sales teams actually promoting Dremio to their customers, um, uh, to help them be successful. So it's really been a good, good partnership. >>And there they are, every time I talked to somebody from Amazon, we always talk about their kind of customer first focus, their customer obsession sounds like you're, there's deep alignment on from the technical engineering perspective, sales and marketing. Talk to me a little bit about cultural alignment, because when you're going into customer conversations, I imagine they want to see one unified team. >>Yeah. You know, I think Amazon does have that customer first and obviously we do as well. And we, you know, we have to right as a, as a startup for us, you know, if a customer has a problem, the whole company will jump on that problem. Right. So that's where we call it customer obsession internally. Um, and I think that's very much what we've seen, you know, with, with AWS as well as the desire to make the customer successful comes before. Okay. How does this affect a specific Amazon product? Right? Because anytime a customer is, uh, you know, using Dremio on AWS, they're also consuming many different AWS services and they're bringing data into AWS. And so, um, I, I think for both of us, it's all about how do we solve customer problems and make them successful with their data in this case. Yup. >>Solving those customer problems is the whole reason that we're all here. Right. Talk to me a little bit about, um, as we have just a few more minutes here, we, when we hear terms like, future-proof, I always want to dig in with, with folks like yourself, chief product officers, what does it actually mean? How do you enable businesses to create these future-proof data architectures that are gonna allow them to scale and be really competitive? Sure. >>So yeah, I think many companies have been, have experienced. What's known as lock-in right. They, they invest in some technology, you know, we've seen this with, you know, databases and data warehouses, right? You, you start using that and you can really never get off and prices go up and you find out that you're spending 10 times more, especially now with the cloud data warehouses 10 times more than you thought you were going to be spending. And at that point it becomes very difficult. Right? What do you do? And so, um, one of the great things about the data lake and the lake house architecture is that the data stays stored in the customer's own account. Right? It's in their S3 buckets in source formats, like parquet files and iceberg tables. Um, and they can use many different technologies on that. So, you know, today the best technology for, for, you know, sequel and, you know, powering your, your mission critical BI is, is Dremio, but tomorrow they might be something else, right. >>And that customer can then take that, uh, uh, that company can take that new technology point at the same data and start using it right. That they don't have to go through some really crazy migration process. And, you know, we see that with Teradata data and Oracle, right? The, the, the old school vendors, um, that's always been a pain. And now it is with the, with the newer, uh, cloud data warehouses, you see a lot of complaints around that, so that the lake house is fundamentally designed. Especially if you choose open source formats, like iceberg tables, as opposed to say a Delta, like you're, you're really, you know, future-proofing yourself. Right. Um, >>Got it. Talk to me about some of the things as we wrap up here that, that attendees can learn and see and touch and feel and smell at the jumbo booth at this reinvent. >>Yeah. I think there's a, there's a few different things they can, uh, they can watch, uh, watch a demo or play around with the dremmel cloud and they can talk to our team about what we're doing with Apache iceberg. It's a iceberg to me is one of the more exciting projects, uh, in this space because, you know, it's just created by Netflix and apple Salesforce, AWS just announced support for iceberg with that, with their products, Athena and EMR. So it's really kind of emerging as the standard table format, the way to represent data in open formats in S3. We've been behind iceberg now for, for a while. And so that to us is very exciting. We're happy to chat with folks at the booth about that. Um, Nessie is another project that we created an source project for, uh, really providing a good experience for your data, where you have version control and branching, and kind of trying to reinvent, uh, data engineering, data management. So that's another cool project that there, uh, we can talk about at the booth. >>So lots of opportunity there for attendees to learn even thank you, Tomer for joining me on the program today, talking about the difference between a data warehouse data lake, the lake house, did a great job explaining that Jamil cloud what's going on and how you guys are deepening that partnership with AWS. We appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure for Tomer. She ran I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube. Our coverage of AWS reinvent continues after this.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>Well, good day, everybody. And it's great to have you with us here on the cube. As we continue our key conversations as a part of the AWS startup showcase, please welcome Jennifer Johnson. Insidery, Jennifer's the chief marketing and strategy officer at amplitude, which is a global leader in product intelligence, and she tells her friends collar JJ. And so today it's still all JJ, how are you doing? I'm doing great, John, how are you doing very well. Thanks for being with us. We appreciate the time. Um, first off, tell us a little bit about amplitude about your work and job for those who might not be familiar. And also, I like to hear a little more about product intelligence about that concept. It's certainly taken on probably a pretty different meaning in this digital world that we're in today. That's right. That's right. Well, so I've been at amplitude. >>I joined in October of 2020. So, uh, not that long. Uh, and let me tell you, I, anyone who knows me knows that I am a CMO, but I am also a category designer. So I look at, uh, I look at companies, I look at opportunities as market creation opportunities, and we're going to talk about that because that's a big reason why I joined amplitude and why I'm so excited for the future of amplitude. Um, and so when we think about our website today says product intelligence. If you read between the lines and I tell you I'm a category designer, you might understand that maybe that will evolve over time, but what product intelligence actually means is it, is it really connects digital products to revenue. And what do I mean by that? And we all know that everything is digital. I don't need to tell you that everything is digital. >>We have the whole world just moved to digital. Um, and it's interesting because we think about digital and we think about the door dashes and the Peloton of the world, but really it's every company and every industry, um, you know, are some of our largest customers are hundred-year-old companies, right? And they have had to not just because of the last year in the pandemic, but they've been really thinking about how do we disrupt ourselves. Really? It's not even about disrupting the industry. It's actually about disrupting their own business around digital. So digital really, isn't a nice to have anymore. It's existential. And we all, I think we all know that at this point. Um, but you know, if the whole world has moved to digital and I think I read something that IDC wrote, we're going to spend $6.8 trillion by 2023 on digital transformation. We're spending an enormous, I mean, I think enormous has even an understatement amount of money on digital. >>So what is the next thing that you have to do once you've spent all this time and money and effort and probably millions of dollars, billions per company actually transforming is you have to actually optimize it and you have to figure out what your, what digital products and digital investments you're making. You have to make sure that actually connect to business outcomes. Things like, uh, revenue, things like lifetime value of things like loyalty, things that drive your business forward. And that's really where product intelligence and the future where amplitude is going is so critical. Because if you think about actually one of our customers said it best the customers of yesterday or the companies of yesterday. They put a website in front of their old way of doing things, their old products, their old way of doing things and call it a digital, like we just put a website in front of it. >>So it's digital. That is no longer the case. Now it's about redesigning your business and transforming value through new digital products and services. So digital products are actually the future of how businesses will operate in the new era. And so what happens is companies say, okay, we need to go build all these new products and services. And we have these goals of growth and revenue, and we hope the revenue comes out the other end, but there's really no way for, or no really effective way for companies to actually figure out how to manage and measure that in between you build a product, you put it out to market. Revenue comes out the other end, but how do you actually know if you're building the right things in the first place? How do you know what, uh, what features, what behaviors, what actions, what combinations of those actually lead to things like engagement and revenue and loyalty, and then how do you actually go and double down on those? >>And what I mean by that is adapting the experience. If you know, something works and you know that every customer that looks like that person will do this and you can predict an outcome. Why wouldn't you serve that up to every single person that looks like that. And really that whole notion of prediction and understanding, and prediction and adapting, that's really where amplitude plays a role. And that's what got me really excited about joining amplitude and really excited about the future is every company is a digital company and really companies have to completely rethink how they manage digital because it isn't just putting a website in front of it anymore. >>Yeah. I mean, you you've hit on something to them. In fact, we've got a lot to unpack here, which is great. Um, but, but you, you talk about that. Digital's lost, right? You got to have it's existential now you're dealing with business, which I think is absolutely correct, but because it's everybody and it is everywhere and you've got a lot of categories, right. Um, as a chief strategy officer, uh, you can't be all things to all people. You can't go off in every which way, but, so how are you focusing then your efforts in terms of identifying the key categories of prime categories, as opposed to looking at this huge landscape, and that could be overwhelming, you know, in some respects, how are you focusing? >>Yeah. I mean, there's, there's two ways to look at it and it is, you know, every company is a digital company, but really any company that has any kind of a digital product or an app digital app, anything that's digital is a as a relevant target for, for amplitude. Um, traditionally we have focused with probably no surprise. We focused on the, probably the, what I'd say the digital native companies, the companies that are more mature, but really they grew up through digitally through digital native. Those are the door dashes, the Postmates, the Uber's, the Lyft's right. Um, and those companies were just built by design to think this way, right? We're building products. Our app is our business. Our product is our business. So we need to make sure that we deeply understand how the interactions with our customers through that experience actually translates. And how do we continue to tweak and test and optimize and digitally native companies tend to understand that inherently. >>So that's been a lot of the early adopters of amplitude have been those digitally native companies. Now what we're seeing and no surprise is there's a really long tail of companies and more traditional industries. I mean, everything from, uh, you know, hospitality and restaurants, obviously media is going through a huge digital disruption right now. Um, automotive, I mean, any, any company that's looking at, how do we build new ways to engage and provide experiences to our customers through any kind of a digital means digital, digital product and app. Those are relevant targets for amplitude. So I think, you know, people think, Oh, it's every, every, uh, industry looks very different, but the commonality is everyone needs to move to digital. And the great thing for amplitude and for the market at large is a lot of our customers are these digitally native, what I would call the thought leaders around digital. And so if we can help bring that, bring those best practices and bring that approach to some of the more traditional companies in traditional industries and help them become more like the Peloton and the door dashes of the world. Then that's great for everybody, >>You know, JJ, when you talk about this transformation that's going on and the spaces in which is going on, which is everywhere right now, I imagine there are still some folks who might be a little reluctant, right? And you talked about slapping the new website and the old material, and they think they're done and they wash your hands and they go away and it's not that simple. Right. Um, so what's that conversation like to people who maybe aren't willing to jump in to take that risk as they see it, whereas, you know, it's an essential to their business. >>Yeah. So, you know, I do think that every disruption, technologically speaking or other is really change management and digital is no different, right? It's not just about moving to digital, it's changing the way that you're organized, it's changing your business structure, your, your strategy priorities. So I think that that organizations know they have to go there now. And even the ones that are reluctant, I'd say, if they're reluctant, they're probably going to get disrupted. So I think everyone understands they need to go there. Our role is really to help organizations get there without, I mean, digital, the, the word that usually follows digital is transformation. And I think a lot of people think that digital transformation needs to be this, you know, three to five year strategic journey and costs millions of dollars with armies of consultants. And really what we're helping to do is help organizations just answer the question, how is our product tied to our revenue? >>And we do that by bringing the data to the teams that actually need it. And it was really, it was really surprising to me to understand the process and some of these really large enterprises around how product and marketing teams, uh, get data. And, and a lot of times, if you have a question about something, if you're a product, if you're a product manager, obviously you want to understand how is our product doing what features are resonating? What features are leading to things like engagement or revenue or subscriptions or loyalty or whatever it is, right. As a marketer, you also want to know that as a marketer, you also want to know what campaigns are we driving that are actually creating value. Are there things that we should be doing? Are there areas we should double down on? And so the process is if you have a question about something or a hypothesis that you want to answer, a lot of times you have to send this request to some centralized data team or a data science team. >>Uh, you know, organizations have, you know, large B2C organizations. Most of them have armies of data scientists and business intelligence platforms. And you send a request and you might get an answer back in a few weeks, maybe a month. And, uh, maybe it's the right answer or usually what happens. And I think we can all relate to this. As you ask a question and you get data back and then it sparks five more questions. And so that whole process is the cyclical thing that I always say, if by the time you actually figure out the answer to your question, it's enough time to get Amazon in the new digital era. And so what we're actually doing is helping to bring that data, which we all know is the crown jewel of any organization. We're bringing that data and we're democratizing it and bringing it to all the teams that actually need it, lock, unlock it from data scientists and BI and bring it to the teams that need it, whether it's product, whether it's marketing, whether it's sales, whether it's customer success. >>And the greatest thing is it's not as a tool for everyone. And then all of a sudden you have these silo tools marketing as their tool product has their tools. CS has their tool is you actually have one platform, one system, and one source of data that all those teams use. So marketing doesn't say, well, yeah, my mind says this and it looks at it from this lens. And product says, well, my data says this, but it looks at it from this lens. All of a sudden you've removed that entire conversation or that entire debate. And that changes everything. It changes the way that companies get insights into customer behavior. It changes the way that they build products. It changes the way that the teams work together, product and marketing can now work off of a common set of data. And so really amplitude is helping to drive that change. >>And you don't have to do it through a three year implementation with an army of consultants that come in. It's something that can be done very easily. And so, and it, you know, I know everyone wants an easy button. Um, it is quite easy though. It's not, it's not the, the three-year or even the one year transformation. It's actually a way to, to bring that data to the teams that need it quickly. Um, the other thing I'd say to it is it's bringing the right data to them. Um, I was reading something from Gardner that said 85% of marketing analytics tools. Now these are tools that usually track things like ad attribution, website visits and how that, you know, how that relates to revenue well in a customer acquisition scenario, while you just want to know what ads actually lead to a cart, uh, put someone going to a cart, someone purchasing that was probably sufficient, but in the, in the new world, that's just not answering the same question. >>Like if you need to add, answer a question of what features, what behaviors, what actions within the product actually drive business outcomes, knowing what ads people clicked on and what web visits that you know, that, that, you know people had. And that's not going to answer it. That's not, it's just answering a totally different question. And 85% of companies are using marketing analytics tools to actually answer questions like what features we need to build. So that's another key point here is companies need to answer this question. They know they do. They just don't have the tools to do it and the data to do it. So they're using tools that were designed for a completely different purpose. And so really that's another great thing about amplitude is we're actually giving them the actual, the right data to answer the questions. >>So if you're, if you're somebody who's headlights, you know, for down the road, then in terms of, you know, you're looking for behavior, straights and patterns, you're looking for increased customer engagements, right. They have all these wonderful tools now, you know, not that you're missing anything, but where do you think that you could even sharpen the pencil a little bit more so that down the road here, what, what do you think technologically, you are capable or you would like to be able to, there's a making that an even richer in case even a bigger, a deeper dig? >>Well, I mean, so we, we have this, this, uh, immense deep, fast, smart database of customer behavior. So if you think of it, it's almost like the possibilities are endless. Anything that you need to be able to know or any question you could ask of your data to know what combinations of features, what combinations of behaviors actually lead to things like retention or churn or revenue. And then you can actually start to model those into cohorts. If I know that a customer does these five things in this order, and they're five times more likely to churn, well, then any customer that actually doesn't just look like that based on your demographics, who you are, where you live, et cetera, but based on actually what you do in the product, we can start to cohort them and say, this person actually looks like this other person based on their behavior. >>And therefore we might actually personalize an experience for them. We might send them an offer if we think they're going to turn, because we know they're likely to turn base cause other people that look like them do, um, or we're not going to send them anything because we already know they're loyal. So they're already likely to buy. So it's answering more questions, but then it's also, how do you actually use that to really personalize experiences? And I, that word is so overused, but in this way, I mean, it's not about I'm going to serve you a piece of content because I know what industry you work in, or I know where you live. I'm actually going to personalize your experience because I know that you, John, as an individual, do these things. And therefore I know that you are either a loyal customer or you've got a high likelihood to churn, et cetera. >>And then I'm going to personalize an experience. That's a good experience for you, but also it could experience for the business. So I think there's more, um, types of analytics. There's more ways to personalize and build experiences. I think in the, in the modern way, not the old demographic way. Um, but also even every organization around the company, like everyone touches the customer. So, you know, customer experience, as we know, is, is, you know, I hate to call it, call it the buzzword. Of course, everybody wants a great customer experience, but everybody talks about customer experience. Anyone who touches the customer as part of customer experience, which is basically the whole company. And so if you think about today, there's obviously product teams, marketing teams are heavy users of, of amplitude, but going forward, I mean, imagine a world where, you know, anytime, you know, anytime you have a touch point with a customer, you can use this, this insight into what they're actually doing in the product to, to get some level of, of intelligence that you didn't have before and use it to proactively give them a better experience, right? >>Whether it's, you know, uh, you know, at renewal time or you know, that they're likely to do something. So you offer something that gives them a better experience or you're in customer service. And wouldn't it be great to actually know if someone's logging a support ticket, what they're actually doing in the product it's going to help you give them a better support experience, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the options here I think are because of the data that we have and the way that we can, like you said, build these patterns and pattern match, what features and actions lead to outcomes. Uh, I think the options are limitless. And I think this is the new way, like customers, that companies that understand this is the Holy grail of the new way of, of digital and understanding your customers and having this intelligence into the product is the new way to engage the customers that get that are going to be the customers that win. >>What is the new game you're right. I think limitless is a really good word too, because the capabilities that you're developing and the product and services you're providing. Um, so thanks for sharing the time and the insight and pleasure to have you on the queue. Thanks for being here. It's been great. Thank you, John. You've got jumbles here on the cube to conversation on AWS startup showcase. In fact, we have Jennifer Johnson.

>>From around the globe. If the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 20, 20 special coverage sponsored by AWS worldwide public sector. >>Okay. Welcome back everyone. To the cubes, virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, this is the cube virtual. I'm your host John farrier with the cube. The cube normally is there in person this year. It's all virtual. This is the cube virtual. We're doing the remote interviews and we're bringing in commentary and discussion around the themes of re-invent. And this today is public sector, worldwide public sector day. And the theme from Teresa Carlson, who heads up the entire team is to think big and look at the data. And I wanted to bring in a special cube alumni and special guests. Alan Cohen. Who's a partner at data collective venture capital or DCVC, um, which we've known for many, many years, founders, Matt OCO and Zachary Bogue, who started the firm, um, to over at about 10 years ago. We're on the really the big data wave and have grown into a really big firm thought big data, data, collective big ideas. That's the whole purpose of your firm. Alan. You're now a partner retired, retired, I mean a venture capitalist over at being a collective. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Great to see you as well. John, thanks for being so honest this morning. >>I love to joke about being retired because the VC game, it's not, um, a retirement for you. You guys made, you made some investments. Data collective has a unique, um, philosophy because you guys invest in essentially moonshots or big ideas, hard problems. And if I look at what's going on with Amazon, specifically in the public sector, genome sequencing now available in what they call the open data registry. You've got healthcare expanding, huge, you got huge demand and education, real societal benefits, uh, cybersecurity contested in space, more contention and congestion and space. Um, there's a lot of really hard science problems that are going on at the cloud. And AI are enabling, you're investing in entrepreneurs that are trying to solve these problems. What's your view of the big ideas? What are people missing? >>Well, I don't know if they're missing, but I think what I'd say, John, is that we're starting to see a shift. So if you look at the last, I don't know, forever 40, 50 years in the it and the tech industry, we took a lot of atoms. We built networks and data warehouses and server farms, and we, we kind of created software with it. So we took Adam's and we turned them into bets. Now we're seeing things move in the other direction where we're targeting bits, software, artificial intelligence, massive amount of compute power, which you can get from companies like, like AWS. And now we're creating better atoms. That means better met medicines and vaccines we're investor, um, and a company called abs Celera, which is the therapeutic treatment that J and J has, um, taken to market. Uh, people are actually spaces, a commercial business. >>If it's not a science fiction, novel we're investors in planet labs and rocket labs and compel a space so people can see right out. So you're sitting on your terrorists of your backyard from a satellite that was launched by a private company without any government money. Um, you talked about gene sequencing, uh, folding of proteins. Um, so I think the big ideas are we can look at some of the world's most intractable issues and problems, and we can go after them and turn them into commercial opportunities. Uh, and we would have been able to do that before, without the advent of big data and obviously the processing capabilities and on now artificial intelligence that are available from things like AWS. So, um, it's kind of, it's kind of payback from the physical world to the physical world, from the virtual world. Okay. >>Pella space was featured in the keynote by Teresa Carlson. Um, great to tie that in great tie in there, but this is the kind of hard problems. And I want to get your take because entrepreneurs, you know, it reminds me of the old days where, you know, when you didn't go back to the.com, when that bubble was going on, and then you got the different cycles and the different waves, um, the consumer always got the best kind of valuations and got the most attention. And now B to B's hot, you got the enterprise is super hot, mainly because of Amazon >>Sure. Into the Jordash IPO. Obviously this morning, >>Jordache IPO, I didn't get a phone call for friends and family and one of their top customers. They started in Palo Alto. We know them since the carton Jordache, these are companies that are getting massive, uh, zoom. Um, the post pandemic is coming. It's going to be a hybrid world. I think there's clear recognition that this some economic values are digital being digitally enabled and using cloud and AI for efficiencies and philosophy of new things. But it's going to get back to the real world. What's your, it's still hard problems out there. I mean, all the valuations, >>Well, there's always hard problems, but what's different now. And from a perspective of venture and, and investors is that you can go after really hard problems with venture scale level of investments. Uh, traditionally you think about these things as like a division of a company like J and J or general electric or some very massive global corporation, and because of the capabilities that are available, um, in the computing world, um, as well as kind of great scientific research and we fund more PhDs probably than any other, uh, any other type of background, uh, for, for founders, they can go after these things, they can create. Uh, we, uh, we have a company called pivot bio, uh, and I think I've spoken to you about them in the past, Sean, they have created a series of microbes that actually do a process called nitrogen fixation. Um, so it attaches the nitrogen to the roots of corn, sorghum and wheat. >>So you don't have to use chemical fertilizer. Well, those microbes were all created through an enormous amount of machine learning. And where did that machine learning come from? So what does that mean? That means climate change. That means more profitable farmers. Uh, that means water and air management, all major issues in our society where if we didn't have the computing capabilities we have today, we wouldn't have been able to do that. We clearly would have not been able to do that, um, as a venture level of investments to get it started. So I think what's missing for a lot of people is a paucity of imagination. And you have to actually, you know, you actually have to take these intractable problems and say, how can I solve them and then tear it apart to its actual molecules, just the little inside joke, right? And, and then move that through. >>And, you know, this means that you have to be able to invest in work on things. You know, these companies don't happen in two or three years or five years. They take sometimes seven, 10, 15 years. So it's life work for people. Um, but though, but we're seeing that, uh, you know, that everywhere, I mean, rocket lab, a company of ours out of New Zealand and now out of DC, which we actually launched the last couple of space, um, satellites, they print their rocket engines with a 3d printer, a metal printer. So think about that. How did all that, that come to bear? Um, and it started as a dangerous scale style of investments. So, you know, Peter Beck, the founder of that company had a dream to basically launch a rocket, you know, once a year, once a month, once a week, and eventually to once a day. So he's effectively creating a huge, um, huge upswing in the ability of people to commercialize space. And then what does space do? It gives you better observability on the planet from a, not just from a security point of view, but from a weather and a commerce point of view. So all kinds of other things that looked like they were very difficult to go after it now starts to become enabled. Yeah. >>I love the, uh, your investment in Capella space because I think that speaks volumes. And one of the things that the founder was talking about was getting the data down is the hard part. He he's up, he's up there now. He can see everything, but now I've got to get the data down because say, say the wildfires in California, or whether, um, things happening around the globe now that you have the, uh, the observation space, you got to get the data down there. This is the huge scale challenge. >>Well, let me, let me, let me give you something. That's also, so w you know, we are in a fairly difficult time in this country, right? Because of the covert virus, uh, we are going to maybe as quickly as next week, start to deliver, even though not as many as we'd like vaccines and therapeutics into this virus situation, literally in a year, how did all these things, I mean, obviously one of the worst public health crisis of our lifetimes, and maybe, you know, uh, of the past century, uh, how did that happen? How did it all day? Well, you know, some, I mean, the ability to use, um, computing power in, in assistance, in laboratory, in, in, uh, in, um, development of, of pharmaceutical and therapeutics is a huge change. So something that is an intractable problem, because the traditional methods of creating vaccines that take anywhere from three to seven years, we would have a much worse public health crisis. I'm not saying that this one is over, right. We're in a really difficult situation, but our ability to start to address it, the worst public health crisis in our lifetime is being addressed because of the ability of people to apply technology and to accelerate the ability to create vaccines. So great points, absolutely amazing. >>Let's just, let's just pause that let's double down on that and just unpack that, think about that for a second. If you didn't, and then the Amazon highlight is on Andy Jesse's keynote carrier, which makes air conditioning. They also do refrigeration and transport. So one IOT application leveraging their cloud is they may call it cold chain managing the value chain of the transport, making sure food. And in this case vaccine, they saw huge value to reduce carbon emissions because of it does the waste involved in food alone was a problem, but the vaccine, they had the cold, the cold, cold, cold chain. Can you hear me? >>Maybe this year, the cold chain is more valuable than the blockchain. Yeah. >>Cold don't think he was cold chain. Sounds like a band called play. Um, um, I had to get that in and Linda loves Coldplay. Um, but if you think about like where we are to your point, imagine if this hit 15 years ago or 20 years ago, um, you know, YouTube was just hitting the scene 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, so, you know, that kind of culture, we didn't have zoom education would be where we would be Skyping. Um, there's no bandwidth. So, I mean, you, you know, the, the bandwidth Wars you would live through those and your career, you had no bandwidth. You had no video conferencing, no real IOT, no real supply chain management and therapeutics would have taken what years. What's your reaction to, to that and compare and contrast that to what's on full display in the real world stage right now on digital enablement, digital transformation. >>Well, look, I mean, ultimately I'm an optimist because of what this technology allows you to do. I'm a realist that, you know, you know, we're gonna lose a lot of people because of this virus, but we're also going to be able to reduce a lot of, um, uh, pain for people and potentially death because of the ability to accelerate, um, these abilities to react. I think the biggest and the, the thing that I look for and I hope for, so when Theresa says, how do you think big, the biggest lesson I think we're going to we've learned in the last year is how to build resilience. So all kinds of parts of our economy, our healthcare systems, our personal lives, our education, our children, even our leisure time have been tested from a resilience point of view and the ability of technology to step in and become an enabler for that of resilience. >>Like there isn't like people don't love zoom school, but without zoom school, what we're going to do, there is no school, right? So, which is why zoom has become an indispensable utility of our lives, whether you're on a too much, or you've got zoom fatigue, does it really matter the concept? What we're going to do, call into a conference call and listen to your teacher, um, right in, you know, so how are you going to, you're going to do that, the ability to repurpose, um, our supply chain and, you know, uh, we, we, we see this, we're going to see a lot of change in the, in the global supply chain. You're going to see, uh, whether it's re domestication of manufacturing or tightening of that up, uh, because we're never going to go without PPE again, and other vital elements. We've seen entire industries repurposed from B2B to B to C and their ability to package, deliver and service customers. That is, those are forms of resilience. >>And, and, and, and taking that to the next level. If you think about what's actually happening on full display, and again, on my one-on-one with Andy Jassy prior to the event, and he laid this out on stage, he kind of talks about this, every vertical being disrupted, and then Dr. Matt wood, who's the machine learning lead there in Swami says, Hey, you know, cloud compute with chips now, and with AI and machine learning, every industry, vertical global industry is going to be disrupted. And so, you know, I get that. We've been saying that in the queue for a long time, that that's just going to happen. So we've been kind of on this wave of horizontal, scalability and vertical specialization with data and modern applications with machine learning, making customization really high-fidelity decisions. Or as you say, down to the molecule level or atomic level, but this is clear what, what I found interesting. And I want to get your thoughts because you have one been there, done that through many ways of innovation and now investor leading investor >>Investor, and you made up a word. I like it. Okay. >>Jesse talks about leadership to invent and reinvent. Can't fight gravity. You've got to get talent hungry for invention, solve real-world problems. Speed. Don't complexify. That's his message. I said to him, in my interview, you need a wartime conciliary cause he's a big movie buff. I quote the godfather. Yeah. Don't you don't want to be the Tom Hagen. You don't want to be that guy, right? You're not a wartime. Conciliary this is a time there's times in companies' histories where there's peace and there's wartime, wartime being the startup, trying to find its way. And then they get product market fit and you're growing and scaling. You're operating, you're hiring people to operate. Then you get into a pivot or a competitive situation. And then you got to get out there and, and, and get dirty and reinvent or re-imagine. And then you're back to peace. Having the right personnel is critical. So one of the themes this year is if you're in the way, get out of the way, you know, and some people don't want to hold on to hold onto the past. That's the way we did it before I built this system. Therefore it has to work this way. Otherwise the new ways, terrible, the mainframe, we've got to keep the mainframe. So you have a kind of a, um, an accelerated leadership, uh, thin man mantra happening. What is your take on this? Because, >>Sorry. So if you're going to have your F R R, if you're going to, if you are going to use, um, mob related better for is I'll share one with you from the final season of the Soprano's, where Tony's Prado is being hit over the head with a bunch of nostalgia from one of his associates. And he goes, remember, when is the lowest form of conversation and which is iconic. I think what you're talking about and what Andy is talking about is that the thing that makes great leadership, and what I look for is that when you invest in somebody or you put somebody in a leadership position to build something, 50% of their experience is really important. And 50% of it is not applicable in the new situation. And the hard leadership initiative has to understand which 50 matters in which 50 doesn't matter. >>So I think the issue is that, yeah, I think it is, you know, lead follow or get out of the way, but it's also, what am I doing? Am I following a pattern for a, for a, for an, a, for a technology, a market, a customer base, or a set of people are managing that doesn't really exist anymore, that the world has moved on. And I think that we're going to be kind of permanent war time on some level we're going to, we're going to be co we're because I think the economy is going to shift. We're going to have other shocks to the economy and we don't get back to a traditional normal any time soon. Yep. So I, I think that is the part that leadership in, in technology really has to, would adopt. And it's like, I mean, uh, you know, the first great CEO of Intel reminded us, right. Then only the paranoid survive. Right. Is that it's you, some things work and some things don't work and that's, that's the hard part on how you parse it. So I always like to say that you always have to have a crisis, and if there is no crisis, you create the crisis. Yeah. And, you know, >>Sam said, don't let a good crisis go to waste. You know? Um, as a manager, you take advantage of the crisis. >>Yeah. I mean, look, it wouldn't have been bad to be in the Peloton business this year. Right, too. Right. Which is like, when people stayed home and like that, you know, you know, th that will fade. People will get back on their bikes and go outside. I'm a cyclist, but you know, a lot more people are going to look at that as an alternative way to exercise or exercising, then when it's dark or when the weather is inclement. So what I think is that you see these things, they go in waves, they crest, they come back, but they never come back all the way to where they were. And as a manager, and then as a builder in the technology industry, you may not get like, like, like, okay, maybe we will not spend as much time on zoom, um, in a year from now, but we're going to still spend a lot of time on zoom and it's going to still be very important. >>Um, what I, what I would say, for example, and I, and looking at the COVID crisis and from my own personal investments, when I look at one thing is clear, we're going to get our arms around this virus. But if you look at the history of airborne illnesses, they are accelerating and they're coming every couple of years. So being able to be in that position to, to more react, more rapidly, create vaccines, the ability to foster trials more quickly to be able to use that information, to make decisions. And so the duration when people are not covered by therapeutics or vaccines, um, short, and this, that is going to be really important. So that form of resilience and that kind of speed is going to happen again and again, in healthcare, right. There's going to be in, you know, in increasing pressure across that in part of the segment food supply, right. I mean, the biggest problem in our food supply today is actually the lack of labor. Um, and so you have far, I mean, you know, farmers have had a repurpose, they don't sell to their traditional, like, so you're going to see increased amount of optimization automation and mechanization. >>Lauren was on the, um, keynote today talking about how their marketplaces collected as a collective, you know, um, people were working together, um, given that, given the big ideas. Well, let's, let's just, as we end the segment here, let's connect big ideas. And the democratization of, I mean, you know, the old expression Silicon Valley go big or go home. Well, I think now we're at a time where you can actually go big and stay and, and, and be big and get to be big at your own pace because the, the mantra has been thinking big in years, execute plan in months and execute weekly and month daily, you know, you can plan around, there's a management technique potentially to leverage cloud and AI to really think about bit the big idea. Uh, if I'm a manager, whether I'm in public sector or commercial or any vertical industry, I can still have that big idea that North star and then work backwards and figure that out. >>That sounds to the Amazon way. What's your take on how people should be. What's the right way to think about executing down that path so that someone who's say trying to re-imagine education. And I know a, some people that I've talked to here in California are looking at it and saying, Hey, I don't need to have silos students, faculty, alumni, and community. I can unify them together. That's an idea. I mean, execution of that is, you know, move all these events. So they've been supplying siloed systems to them. Um, I mean, cause people want to interact online. The Peloton is a great example of health and fitness. So there's, there's everyone is out there waiting for this playbook. >>Yeah. Unfortunately I, I had the playbook. I'd mail it to you. Uh, but you know, I think there's a couple of things that are really important to do. Maybe good to help the bed is one where is there structural change in an industry or a segment or something like that. And sorry to just people I'm home today, right? It's, everybody's running out of the door. Um, and you know, so I talked about this structural change and you, we talked about the structural change in healthcare. We talked about kind of maybe some of the structural change that's coming to agriculture. There's a change in people's expectations and how they're willing to work and what they're willing to do. Um, you, as you pointed out the traditional silos, right, since we have so much information at our fingertips, um, you know, people's responsibility as opposed to having products and services to deliver them, what they're willing to do on their own is really changed. >>Um, I think the other thing is that, uh, leadership is ultimately the most important aspect. And we have built a lot of companies in the industry based on forms of structural relations industry, um, background, I'm a product manager, I'm a sales person, I'm a CEO, I'm a finance person. And what we're starting to see is more whole thinking. Um, uh, particularly in early stage investors where they think less functionally about what people's jobs are and more about what the company is trying to get done, what the market is like. And it's infusing a lot more, how people do that. So ultimately most of this comes down to leadership. Um, uh, and, and that's what people have to do. They have to see themselves as a leader in their company, in their, in the business. They're trying to build, um, not just in their function, but in the market they're trying to win, which means you go out and you talk to a lot more people. >>You do a lot, you take a lot fewer things for granted. Um, you read less textbooks on how to build companies and you spend more time talking to your customers and your engineers, and you start to look at enabling. So the, we have made between machine learning, computer vision, and the amount of processing power that's available from things like AWS, including the services that you could just click box in places like the Amazon store. You actually have to be much more expansive in how you think about what you can get done without having to build a lot of things. Cause it's actually right there at your fingertips. Hopefully that kind of gets a little bit to what you were asking. >>Well, Alan, it's always great to have you on and great insight and, uh, always a pleasure to talk candidly. Um, normally we're a little bit more boisterous, but given how terrible the situation is with COVID while working at home, I'm usually in person, but you've been great. Take a minute to give a plug for the data collective venture capital firm. DCVC you guys have a really unique investment thesis you're in applied AI, computational biology, um, computational care, um, enterprise enablement. Geospatial is about space and Capella, which was featured carbon health, smart agriculture transportation. These are kind of like not on these are off the beaten path of like traditional herd mentality of venture capital. You guys are going after big problems. Give us an update on the firm. I know that firm has gotten bigger lately. You guys have >>No, I mean the further firm has gotten bigger, I guess since Matt, Zach started about a decade ago. So we have about $2.3 billion under management. We also have bio fund, uh, kind of a sister fund. That's part of that. I mean, obviously we are, uh, traditionally an early stage investor, but we have gone much longer now with these additional, um, um, investment funds and, and the confidence of our LPs. Uh, we are looking for bears. You said John, really large intractable, um, industry problems and transitions. Uh, we tend to back very technical founders and work with them very early in the creation of their business. Um, and we have a huge network of some of the leading people in our industry who work with us. Uh, we, uh, it's a little bit of our secret weapon. We call it our equity partner network. Many of them have been on the cube. >>Um, and these are people that work with us in the create, uh, you know, the creation of this. Uh, we've never been more excited because there's never been more opportunity. And you'll start to see, you know, you're starting to hear more and more about them, uh, will probably be a couple of years of report. We're a household name. Um, but you know, we've, we we're, we're washing deal flow. And the good news is I think more people want to invest in and build the things that we've. So we're less than itchy where people want to do what we're doing. And I think some of the large exits that starting to come our way or we'll attract more, more great entrepreneurs in that space. >>I really saw the data models, data, data trend early, you saw a Realty impacted, and I'll say that's front and center on Amazon web services reinvent this year. You guys were early super important firm. I'm really glad you guys exist. And you guys will be soon a household name if not already. Thanks for coming on. Right, >>Alan. Thanks. Thank you. Appreciate >>It. Take care. I'm John ferry with the cube. You're watching a reinvent coverage. This is the cube live portion of the coverage. Three weeks wall to wall. Check out the cube.net. Also go to the queue page on the Amazon event page, there's a little click through the bottom and the metadata is Mainstage tons of video on demand and live programming there too. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of PagerDuty summit 2020, brought to you by PagerDuty. >> Welcome to theCUBES coverage of PagerDuty summit 20, I'm Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE, one of our alumna, distinguished alumna, the CEO of PagerDuty, Jennifer Jehada. Jennifer it's great to be talking with you today. >> Thanks Lisa, it's great to be here with theCUBE again and great to see you. >> Yeah, so lots happened in the last six months alone with that whiplash from all that, but you've been fifth year of the PagerDuty summit. The first year virtual, lot of things have changed. Talk to us about the evolution of PagerDuty over the last few years in particularly the last six months. >> Well, let's start with the last six months. I mean, I think we have all seen a society go through a big transformation with a global pandemic, kind of underpinning a volatile economic environment, a very difficult jobs environment. But in many cases, we've also seen tremendous acceleration. We've seen companies pull forward 10 years of transformation into a matter of months. And we saw that recently in some Kinsey research. And this is really been driven by the compulsory need for brands to meet their consumers online, for companies to enable and empower their employees online and for children to be able to learn online. And so, as we've moved, made this shift to doing everything in the digital world, it means that all of our customers, the biggest brands in the fortune 500, the most innovative tech companies that you're aware of. They've all had to really transform quickly to deliver an entire, nearly perfect customer experience online. And the stakes are higher, because they can't depend on their bricks and mortar revenue for business success. And that's meant that IT teams and developer teams have become the frontline of the digital default era because digital really truly is, the new operating system. That kind of fits squarely into how PagerDuty is evolve. Because we started out as a platform that served developers and helping them manage on-call notifications and alerting. So, engineers who wanted to be alerted when something went wrong and make sure they could address an issue in a service they were responsible for, before it had customer impact. Over the last five years, we've really evolved the platform, leveraging over a decade of proprietary data, about events, about incidents, about people, responder behavior, with machine learning, to really help our customers and engineering and IT, and IT ops and security and in customer support, truly manage what is an increasingly complex digital tech ecosystem. And this means that we're using software and automation to detect issues. We're then intelligently routing those issues in that work, that unplanned spontaneous work to the right people in the right moments. So that a customer and employee doesn't even feel any pain. There is no issue with availability. They can continue to engage with a brand or a service the way they want to. And that's become increasingly important because that's where all the revenue is today. >> It's essential, it's like, we've been talking for months about essential frontline workers and we think right away of healthcare, fire police, things like that. But, the digital default that you talked about, there's new digital frontline. I know PagerDuty has over 13,000 customers and some of the new sort of digital frontline that are enabling people to do everything from work, shop, learn, zoom, Netflix for example, Peloton helping us, keep fit in this time of such isolation, are now considered essential and depending on PagerDuty to help them be able to do that. To meet those increasing customer demands. >> Sure, all of these are PagerDuty customers. And the thing about the digital frontline is they can be invisible. You don't necessarily see them because they're behind the scenes trying to manage all the complex technology that makes that on demand Peloton class efficient and amazing for you. And when that class doesn't work, you're unhappy with Peloton. It really directly impacts the brand. Luckily Peloton is very reliable. I'm a big Peloton fun myself. And I really like to acknowledge and just let the frontline know that we do see them. We know that digital workers have been putting in on average, an extra 10 to 15 hours a week. During this environment, many of them are also either living in isolation on their own because of shelter in place rules, or they're trying to manage their own children's schooling. And, we all ask ourselves this question, are we working from home or are we living at work? It's sometimes those lines are blurred. So, anything that we can do as a platform to automate more and more of this work for the digital frontline, is really our focus. And this year at summit, we're going to be talking in particular about freeing our users from complexity about helping them orchestrate and automate work more effectively. And about leveraging machine learning and analytics to improve the cost efficiency, the productivity and the team, the health of their digital teams and their digital operations. >> So, in your keynote, you're going to be talking about digital ops. That's kind of dig into that. Cause we've shifted from this very structured way of working to sort of this chaotic approach, the last six months. Digital ops, what does it mean from PagerDuty's perspective and how is it going to impact every business? >> Well, I think when we look forward in a couple of years, we won't even use the word digital. It'll just be the operations of a company of a modern organization. How do you bring together all the application technology, the infrastructure technology, the networking, the Wi-Fi connectivity, the customer engagement data. How do you bring all of that together, to deliver these wonderful experiences that we've become reliant? You use the word essential, right? Well, PagerDuty essentially become the critical foundation or infrastructure that helps companies manage all this technology. And the problem is, with architecture becoming more distributed with powerful tools like the cloud, that's actually proliferated the complexity. It's actually increased the speed of the number of applications and services that an organization has mattered. And so, adopting the cloud can be very powerful for a company. It can be very freeing. It can allow you to innovate much faster. But it also, is not an easy thing to do. There's a lot of change management associated with it. And you have to make sure, that your team is ready for it. PagerDuty really facilitates a cultural shift, leveraging DevOps, which really, in a DevOps culture really in methodology allows companies to empower people closest to the action, to make better decisions. If you think about this digital world, we're living in, a consumer wait a nanosecond, a microsecond, maybe a couple of seconds. If you don't get that experience to be perfect for them. And yet traditional ways of solving technology problems, or ticketing systems and command and control environments that would take hours, maybe days to resolve issues. We don't have that time anymore. And so, digital operations is all about instantly detecting an issue, being able to run correlation and consolidate those issues to start to become more proactive, to predict whether or not, this small issue could become a major incident. And address it, resolve it, leveraging automation, before customers feel any pain before you see any impact to the business, the bottom line or brand reputation. >> All of those, are absolutely critical for every type of company, every size, every industry, because as you talked about, customers are demanding, we're also ready to, if something doesn't happen right away, we're going to go find the next service that's going to be able to deliver it. And the cost of that to a business, is I saw some numbers that you shared that if that costs you a hundred, a second of a minute, rather of downtime. A year ago, costs you a $100,000. That's now 4 to 5X. So, that costs can actually put a company adding up out of business. And we're in this. Let's not just survive, but thrive mode. And, to be able to have that immediate response. And as you say, shift from being reactive to proactive is I think absolutely business critical. >> Lisa, you should come work for us. >> You have this down pat. >> (laughs) And you're exactly right. I mean, I remember back in the day when I used to work in an office and walk out onto the street before I went home, you would see employees standing outside, switching back and forth between their rideshare app, their food delivery app, maybe their dating app, or their movie entertainment app. And if one thing is not serving them fast enough, they just switched to the other one. And, consumers are very fickle. They've got become increasingly more demanding, which means there are more demands on our teams and that digital frontline and our technology. And in fact, to your point, because all of that revenue has shifted online over the last six months. We've seen the cost of a minute and that cost is really calculated based on loss, labor productivity, but also lost revenue. We've seen that cost go up, from if you lost a $100,000 during disruption last year, you're maybe losing half a million dollars a minute when your app is disrupted. And, these apps and websites don't really go down very often anymore, but small disruptions, when you're trying to close out your shopping cart, when you're trying to select something, when you're trying to do some research. It can be very frustrating, when all of those little pieces backed by very complex technology, don't come together beautifully. And, that's where PagerDuty brings the power of automation, the power of data and intelligence and increasingly orchestrates all this work. We don't start our day anymore by coming into an office, having a very structured well laid out calendar and environment. We often are interrupted constantly throughout the day. And PagerDuty was designed and architected to serve unpredictable, spontaneous, but emergent, meaning time critical and mission critical work. And I think that's really important because that digital environment is how companies and brands build trust with their consumers or their employees. PagerDuty essentially operationalizes that trust. The challenge with trust, is it can take years to build trust up and you can destroy it in a matter of seconds. And so, that's become really important for our customers. >> Absolutely, another thing that obviously has gone on, in the last six months is, you talked about those digital frontline workers working an extra 10 to 15 hours a week, living at work basically, but also the number of incidents has gone up. But how has PagerDuty helping those folks respond to and reduce the incidents faster? >> Well, this is something that I'm very proud of, and PagerDuty's entire product and engineering team should be extremely proud of. I mean, we were held to a very high standard. Because we're the platform that is expected to be up, when everything else is having a bad day. And in this particular environment, we've seen a number of our customers experience unprecedented demand and scale, like zoom and Netflix, who you mentioned earlier. And when that happens, that puts a lot of pressure, events transiting across our platform on PagerDuty. PagerDuty has not only held up extremely well. Seeing some customers experiencing 50 times the number of incidents and other customers experiencing maybe 12 times the number of incidents they used to. Those customers are actually seeing an improvement in their time to resolve an incident by about 20%. So, I love the fact that, not only have we scaled almost seamlessly in this environment with the customers of ours that are seeing the most demand and the most change. And at the same time, we've helped all of our customers improve their time to resolve these incidents, to improve their overall business outcomes. >> One of the things I saw Jennifer recently, I think it was from McKinsey, was that 92% of this, is the survey before the pandemics. That, yeah, we've got to shift to a digital business. So, I'm curious customers that were on that cussing. We're not there yet, but we need to go. When this happened six months ago, when they came to PagerDuty, how did you advise them to be able to do this when time was of the essence? >> Well, first of all, one of our first company value, is champion the customer. So, I think our initial response to what we saw happen as COVID started to impact many industries was to listen. Was to lean in with empathy and try and understand the position our customers were in. Because just like our employees, every person is affected differently by this environment. And every customer has had a different experience. Some industries have done very well, and we hear a lot about that on the news, but many industries are really having a very difficult time and have had to massively transform their business model just to survive, much less to thrive. And so, PagerDuty has really worked with those customers to help them manage the challenge of trying to transform and accelerate their digital offerings and at the same time, reduce their overall costs. And we do that very effectively. We did a study with IDC about a year ago, and found that, most of our enterprise customers experience a 730% return on investment in four months. And that's because we automate what has traditionally been a lot of manual work, instead of just alerting someone there's a problem. We orchestrate that problem across cross-functional teams, who otherwise might not be able to find each other and are now distributed. So, there's even more complicated. You can't just sit in a room and solve these problems together anymore. We actually capture all of the data that is created in the process of resolving an incident. And now, we're using machine learning and AI to make recommendations, to suggest ways to resolve an incident, to leverage past incident experiences and experts within the platform to do that. And that means that we're continually consolidating the time that it takes to resolve an incident from detection all the way through to being back to recovery, but also reducing the amount of manual work that people have to do, which also reduces their stress when they're under fire and under time constraints. Because they know these types of incidents can have a public and a financial impact on their companies. We also help them learn from every incident that runs on the platform. And we're really bringing a more power to the table on that front, with some of the new releases. I'll be talking about later on this morning with analytics and our analytics lab. >> As we look at the future, the future of life is online, right? The future of work is online, but also distributed teams. Cause we know that things are going to come back to normal, but a lot isn't. So, being able to empower organizations to make that pivot so quickly, you brought up a great point about it's not just the end-user customer who can churn and then go blast about it to social media and cause even more churn. But it's also the digital frontline worker who totally needs to be cared for, because of burnout happens. That's a big issue that every company has to deal with. How is PagerDuty kind of really focused on, you mentioned culture on helping that digital frontline worker not feel burnout or those teams collaborate better? >> Well, we look at operations through the lens of sort of humanity. And we think about what's the impact of the operational environment today on what we call team health. And in our analytics solution, we can heat map your team for you and help you understand who in your team is experiencing the most incident response stress. they're having to take on work during dinner time, after hours on weekends, in the middle of the night. Cause these big incidents, for some reason, don't seem to happen at one on a Tuesday. They tend to happen at 4:00 AM on a Saturday. And oftentimes what happens is what I call the hero syndrome. You have a particularly great developer who becomes the subject matter expert, who gets pulled into every major difficult puzzle or incident to solve. And the next thing, that person's spending 50% of their time on unplanned, unpredictable high stress work. And we can see that, before it becomes that challenging and alert leaders that they potentially have a problem. We also, in our analytics products can help managers benchmark their teams in terms of their overall productivity, how much their services are costing them to run and manage. And also looking after the health of those folks. And, we've often said PagerDuty is for people. We really build everything from design to architecture, in service of helping our users be more efficient, helping our users get to the work that matters the most to them. And helping our users to learn. Like I said, with every incident or problem or challenge that runs on the platform. And likewise, I believe culture is a business imperative. Likewise is diversity and equality and PagerDuty as a platform from a technology perspective that doesn't discriminate. And we're also a company that is really focused on unbalanced, on belonging, on inclusion, diversity and equality in everything that we do. And I'm really excited that at summit, we have Derek Johnson who is the president of the NAACP, speaking with us to talk about how we get out the vote, how we support individuals in having a say in leveraging their voices at a time when I think it's more important than ever. >> And that was one of the things that really struck me Jennifer, when I was looking at, Hey, what's going on with PagerDuty summit 20. And just even scanning the website with the photographs of the speakers from keynotes and general session to break out influencers, the amount of representation of women and people of color and diversity, really struck me. Because we just don't see that enough. And I just wanted to say, congratulations as a woman who's been in tech for 15 years. That is so important, but it's not easy to achieve. >> Well, thank you for saying that. I mean, honestly, I think that when you look on that summit website and at those speakers, it really is a great picture or snapshot of the richly diverse community that PagerDuty serves and engages in partners in. Sometimes you just have to be more intentional about identifying some of those phenomenal speakers, who are maybe not like the obvious person to have on a topic because we become accustomed used to having the same types of speakers over and over again. So, this started with intent, but to be honest, like these people are out there and I think we have to give them a stage. We have to give them a spotlight. And it's not about whether you're a man or a woman at our stage. It's making sure that the entire summit environment really brings a diverse and I think rich collection of expertise of experience to the table, so that we all benefit. And I'm really excited. There are just so many fantastic folks joining us from Brett Taylor, who is the president and CEO of Salesforce and was the founding CTO of Facebook to Andy Jassy, who is leading Amazon web services right now. There's Ebony Beckwith who's going to speak about some of the great things that we're doing with pagerduty.org and the list goes on and on. I could spend, all morning talking about the people I'm excited to hear from and learn from. But I would encourage everybody who's putting an event together, to have a strategy and be intentional and be insistent about making sure that your content and the people providing that content, the experts that you're bringing to bear really do reflect the community that we're all trying to serve. >> That is outstanding and congratulations on PagerDuty summit by the first virtual, but you're going to have the opportunity to influence and educate so many more people. Jennifer, it's been such a pleasure talking to you and having you back on theCUBE. I look forward to seeing you again soon. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. It's been great to be with you. >> All right, for Jennifer Tejada. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE conversation. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. And when we kicked off this program, Cloud Native Insights, we wanted to talk about the innovation and agility that's happening, not just Cloud as a location. We're going to draw down a little bit into one of the very important pieces of a company and that's their websites and their applications, that live in that environment. And of course, that comes from a lot of changes over the years. Any of us that have been in tech for a couple of decades have worked from the early days, to of course today's multimedia globally distributed environment and everyone during the global pandemic, of course, has been (indistinct) straining their use of the internet. So really excited to welcome to the program the two co-founders of Netlify. I have Matt Biilmann, who is the CEO, and his co-founder Christian Bach, who is the president both of Netlify really the company behind Jamstack, which we're going to explain and talk about a bit. Matt and Chris, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us >> All right so, let's start with just some of the basics. I expect that some of our audience is not familiar with Jamstack. You do a quick Google search and it's JavaScript, its APIs, its markup. And you say, okay, I understand what a bunch of that means. But, yeah, if you could give us kind of a compare contrast to what web development was before and how Jamstack's really helping to revolutionize what's happening in this space. >> Yes, so for many years, we built websites and web applications with an application based architecture, where every website or every application would be this monolithic application with typically like a load balancer, a set of web servers, application servers, and that database and every request through a page would go through this whole stack it would pass through the application layer, talk to the database, fetch template, merge data and template, build HTML on the fly and send it back to the user. And basically what we saw happening and what's been happening with the Jamstack is this decoupling of the actual front-end presentation layer of the websites and web applications and then the back-end layer. And the advantages there is that if you can really pre-build the front-end application layer, you can take the actual HTML, or an application shell and distribute it across a globally distributed network, you can get it into the hands of the user's browser very quickly. And then the back end, what we've seen happening there is that it's split up to all these different APIs and services you no longer have your one monolithic back end you have all these different services. Where some of your own but a lot of them are other people's services like Stripe or Twilio or Algolia or Contentful. So we've seen this shift to this architecture, where we're considered in a way that the stack has moved up a little from the old tooling where something like the LAMP stack would be common in really naming the programming language, the specific web server, the Linux server, the operating system, and so on right? And then up to a level where it's really about getting an application into the browser, using JavaScript as the runtime and talking to this whole new economy of APIs and services. >> Yeah, Chris I wonder if you could bring us inside your customers and the companies that you talk to. I think about for the longest time it was, maybe I just outsource my web development, but website is one of those key components that I share my value, I share what's going on, I want to be able to change it pretty often and there's so much more that I can do today than I could have done 10 years ago. We've watched that mark. So, help us understand, what skill sets do people need to have? what type of companies are using Jamstack? And, bring in if you can, Netlify. How is this a business and not just, an open source standards movement, that's helping to revolutionize what's happening? >> Absolutely, I mean, First of all, people using this and companies use this is extremely wide. Wide vertical, right? Its very horizontal. This is anyone with a digital property basically, right? I think what we've seen all the time is that, that we have a lot more channels than we used to have, right? So we started off just maybe having the one dot com, right? With limited functionality. And today, you have a multiple channels, right? You have the landing pages, you have the domains, you have lots of activities online. You have mobile apps and commerce is often a big part of it, and I would say especially the last few months, there's a lot of people that had the digital convergence points as one of many. And now it's the only ones, right? So I think it's become extremely important. I also think that when you look at your web infrastructure in general, it has been very complex, right? And you need a lot of different people, right? And you need to maintain staging environments, production lines, development environments. You need to, have a wide set of skills to maintain these things, right? And if a web developer wanted to do a lot of things, right? They have to go and tap DevOps and so on on the shoulder, right? And I think what the Jamstack is about saying, hey, you can get so much further as a web developer. Now, if you take the modern built tools, you can take the Git workflows, and you wrap around the browser that has become a full-fledged operating system and the API economy as Matt was just talking about. You have these workflows, or you potentially have these workflows, where you can get so much further, right? And that's very much Netlify submission. So Netlify saw this opportunity of decoupling the front end from the back end of the building from the hosting of creating an approach to making websites that would be many times faster, 'cause you have multiple points of origin and you don't feel fredurous. It's many times safer. There's not that huge surface area of attack. It's much more scalable, and so on. It was sort of a win-win-win. But the problem was, there was no viable workflow. If you take a traditional CDN, and you put it in, it doesn't matter really, if it's one or the other. As good as they (indistinct) services, they're all meant to sit in front of an origin, right? They're meant to buffer something. And if you have the gems, there's no origin in that way, right? The network in itself has to be an origin so it has to be architectured quite differently. And then there's a lot of things around CDCI and how you server lists and so on. That all had to be sort of re-merged . And Netlify is that glue, it is that platform that takes you from local development all the way out to edge nodes. But allows you to mix and match any tool. So it's not program independent. So you can say, well, we use a build tool, and that's PHP or Ruby or JavaScript, the react or Next or whatever it might be, right? And we use these APIs for this server, for this property. Over here we have a commerce site. Over here, we have a dotcom, that needs a huge enterprise CMS with tons of stakeholders. But the thing is that all of those now becomes something that plugs into your website. Rather than have to drive the website itself. And that's sort of frees up the silos. So when we see people using Netlify, we have companies using Netlify. Big Fitness Company, for example, that own fitness company that uses us for developer documentation, or their marketing sites, but also for their dotcom. But even if you go to the equipment that people have at home, and you log in, that's actually using some very nifty identity and remote based access control for Netlify and if you watch the video there, it's also going through a Netlify player, all right? We have fast food chains that has their dotcom and their marketing sites, but also the kiosks down in the store like the menus, the screens there. Rather than being an old Windows NT server running some .NET application in a dusty corner, why not have it like that? And so, both the category but also Netlify sort of brings in a solution and because it's decoupled from all those architectural choices, that means that you can now use the solution in a much, much wider setting. And we were sort of first to market doing this. They get serverless approach where you just push your serverless functions to get better Netlify. First Feature Deploy Previews Were invented by us and so on. So the Jamstack is an extremely wide fundamental architectural approach that matches basically anyone that wants to build web properties. Netlify is the segnostic wide platform that just makes it possible. >> Yeah, good Chris actually, I saw the Peloton use case up on the website and you're right, a very different experience rather than I bring my device, is it synced? Does it work with it? Really integrates those solutions. And you just brought up serverless, which is actually how I got connected to talk in Netlify. So, Matt, sorry, I think you wanted to jump in there but I was wondering if you could help us. I've looked at serverless and what the promise of serverless of course, is that I don't need to think about that underlying infrastructure. I just like developers build our applications. Well, feels like that's really the same mission that you have. And they're serverless is a piece of your story. So, maybe explain (indistinct) that out a little for us. >> Absolutely, I think it ties in, right? Basically, what we saw just from a architectural perspective was this approach of really decoupling front end and back end and so on and working in a new way that gave a lot of benefits to the inducers in performance and security and so on right? But on the other hand, early on, what we saw was that to adopt that approach, like developers had to deal with lot of different moving pieces like CICD, CDN. What to do about the API endpoints that didn't need to be dynamic, and so on. And as Netlify, what we saw was that we could give one intro and workflow for all of this and make it extremely easy for developers to work with this thing. And serverless plays a really important piece there, right? Because when Amazon pioneered AWS Lambda and took it to the world, right? I think the promise also for the front-end web developers of being able to simply write code and then not have to worry at all about where is it actually running? How are we scaling it? How are we operating it and so on, right? That's a really powerful promise, right? But at the same time, in the same way, what we saw earlier on was that for a front-end team to actually adopt serverless functions as part of the Jamstack, it introduced another level of complexity of now having to manage your serverless functions independent from your front end figuring out API Gateway endpoints for every one of them. And how about deployment pipeline for your functions layer versus deployment pipelines for the actual front end layer that's supposed to talk to those front ends. How about staging environments versus to production environments? How do you manage all that, right? So we saw that there was this inherent incredible potential, but also a lot of complexity, right? And as Netlify we saw that if we could give front end developers a web developers in general, an ene-to-end workflow, where they can work both with the front-end framework, write the code that will get deployed into the browser, but also just have a folder where they can write this serverless functions and then know that Netlify will take care of all of the wiring, right? When you open a pull request and get with new function we'll give you a URL on our globally distributed CDN where you can view both the whole front end, but also the function and sidestep sort of all of the complexities of linking together API Gateways, to functions of managing CICD pipelines and test environments and so on. And in the end, the serverless functions starts becoming a really important part of this Jamstack approach, right? Because you have this world where you have a front end that's often talking to many different APIs and services where again, some of your own and some other people's services. But really often you need some place to glue those together or to build your own custom API endpoint that talks to a couple of them and it has access to server site secrets and so on, right? And this idea of not having to suddenly operate and manage a whole set of servers and infrastructure just for that part of it, but simply just writing the code and then knowing, that you don't have to worry about the operation scalability or anything around that code. That's a really powerful paradigm. >> Yeah, that's one of the real challenges of the Cloud as you talk about the Paradox of Choice. There's so many ways to do things. Not necessarily... It's simple anybody... I was a blogger for many years and it was like, well, I'll just use the self-hosted WordPress, because I don't want to have to worry about that piece of it. Matt, I watched it you did a presentation talking about if I wanted to do WordPress hosted in a AWS that absolutely is not simple. I heard a podcast from one of your board members, Tom Preston Werner, talking about we need to be more opinionated. We need to be able to give more guidance to developers, maybe Chris if you could, how are we when the proliferation of choice, keeps increasing, making sure that people can... How do I make that decision tree? And how do we try to keep it simple? >> Absolutely, I mean, and I actually think that, that's a super relevant question, because you have a lot of choice as a web developer today. Front-end developers used to cut out Photoshop files and turn them into HTML, right? Now with the new advanced markup, and they have all these frameworks and flavors of JavaScript to choose between and there's these powerful build tools, And all those workflows and the browser can do everything you can imagine, right? And so yeah, there is a lot of choice out there, right? And I think, for Netlify what's extremely important is that we are opinionated in the right places. And so when it comes to, for example, a front-end tool and built tools and these things that web developers often face with having to choose between. Our role is to make it as simple as possible to use any of them. But also give you the opportunity of saying, well, this new paradigm allows you to actually mix and match, right? It allows you to use this tool for this property and this tool for this property and gives you a ton of flexibility. But still, come under one roof of a platform like Netlify. And I think that is very powerful. And so we also don't want to choose for you, we want to inform your choices and we want to make it as easy as possible to go and say, hey, these are my needs, what direction should I be going? And of course, we work with enterprise clients, so on migration services, and so on, right? And where we help them a lot with that. But if we locked down on a single flavor, or a single bill tool or a single front end framework, then we also limit the application of what we bring to market and we want to remain a little more open-ended there. But I think there's a lot complexity, a platform like Netlify is all about simplification. So all that wiring that Matt just mentioned, that at least goes, right? You don't spend hours configuring bondage caching and trying to find those edge cases, it just works. And that's a huge game changer for a lot of people, right? But there's definitely parts of the ecosystem that has a lot of choice. And we do our best to inform. And I think, under hand holding part, adjacent to that is the story of, well, do we then start using content management systems? Is this a whole new? Is it out with the old and in with the new? And I would say, you still have a lot of those needs, right? You still have non-technical people, for example, that needs to be able to update and create moves and content, and so on, right? And create content. And so you very often will need and an E-commerce solution or content management systems and so on. But what we're seeing there, is that we're speaking basically with every single major CMS out there. That are saying we're working on a headless system, or we already have a headless version, or we just gone full headless, that means that we work decoupled. So we don't no longer need to build the site. But we just provide like an independent source of content. And then it plugs into a platform like Netlify. So that can bring a lot of simplicity. And now you just have to maintain your content, but you don't have to worry about all the different environments and what is up to date and how does some of the infrastructure look like you press a button that commits to get a default preview, and it looks the same everywhere. >> I'm curious, what impact the current global pandemic has had on Netlify, and your customers. I saw you've got a COVID tracking project that you've done. But also now just there's different considerations when I think about what services I need to access from the web and what kind of connectivity the ultimate end user would have. So, what learnings have you had? What's involved there? >> In, obviously we, it depends a lot on, as Chris mentioned, right? The game circus is adopted horizontally across all kinds of areas and businesses and so on, right? So, we've of course seen businesses in sectors that are having a hard time and on the other hand, we've seen businesses and sectors that are exploding, right? We did immediately when the lockdown started happening and the pandemic started happening we set aside like a free plan for projects working in the space of tackling the information sharing around COVID and finding solutions and so on. And that was really interesting to see you mention the COVID tracking project, right? Which was a project like built a short time by small group of distributed incredibly talented front end developers and scientists and so on, right? And I think it was interesting to see that, how the Jamstack and our tooling and so on also really made it possible for them to build as a small distributed team the set of data information and tooling to a global audience, right? Seeing huge traffic peaks at time and just knowing that their architecture and our infrastructure could handle it for them. >> All right. Chris, I've got one, a little bit off to the side here. When I look at what Netlify is doing, you talk about having an open and independent web. And while we are fully supportive of that, we're a little concerned sometimes. If you look at what's happening across the globe, there's a lot of discussions. Will the internet actually fragment? Will certain countries wall off certain environments? Any concerns there? What do you look at? What are you hearing from your customers when you talk about that mission? >> It's one of the big challenges of all time, right? I think we all maybe took for given the Internet as the standard it became right? The way that you can publish without permission is pretty magnificent, right? And it would be indescribably painful for civilization if we lost that, right? And I think fragmentation is something that we all have to sort of worry around. From the way we see it, is that the web, the traditional monolithic approach, right? To which led to as a web that wasn't secure enough and wasn't scalable enough and wasn't performing enough and that's, for example, what opened the door for mobile applications, right? Where it just didn't make sense to pull in the UI every time you turn the page. So we ended up with a form that's it. We prebuilt the application, you download it, and then you speak to service for anything then atmosphere come up with it, right. And that makes perfect sense. That's basically the same architecture that we're bringing to the web a very large scale. Of course, the problem is that now there are gatekeepers there, right? There people, you have to ask for permission to publish and so on. And, and there are other attempts to say, "Hey, we need a performing web." And there's a very big players out there that say, "Let's come over and just..." Do we even need to call it the Internet? Can we just call it our company website? I'm not going to name any names here, right? But leading down, it's what we've called walled gardens, that are great for absolutely no one except for the company. And what we believe is that if you have a web that is secure and is scalable, and it's performant enough to justify at least the architecture maintaining and not having to run into any walled gardens and still say no, you don't need to use a handful of commercial platforms if you want to be heard rather than have your own web properties on your own custom domains, right? I think that's the part of the open independent viable web that we're fighting for. Basically, one that adopts and keeps adopting an architecture that is something that levels the playing field. And then they would also say, why Netlify? I mean, a few years before we started, like, try configuring your own CDN. And like that was reserved for the very, very large tech players. Now you can comment, you can literally click a button on Netlify, you get custom domain and ACS post process site that's globally distributed, automatically integrated into get. And that's on the premium plan. And so as a startup, you can level set together with everyone else and be available widely across the globe without performance issues, immediately. And so in that way, I'm also seeing that's a democrat sensation of performance, right? That means that, that's great. And for places where you see developing economies, where you often have brownouts, where you often can't depend on having viable services and is locally and so on, this idea of having he cover that and having something that's just automatically, you know what, don't even worry about it, because it's already ready to go in all these packets all around the world. That's a huge game changer. That's actually what we see a lot of adoption of the gems they can never find in those places as well. Guess that's just such a promise to the architecture. So, I hear what you're saying and I'm also very concerned about a fragmented web for political reasons as well across the globe. And from our angle, the way we fight for this is to make sure that it retains using an architecture that makes it accessible for me. >> Yeah, I heard many years ago, a friend of mine said, if you're a technologist it means that in general you are a technology optimist, which I definitely try to be. So, I love Chris how you've just brought in some of the potential opportunity Matt, I want to give you just... People out there they hear like oh, 5G is coming, it's going to completely change the world. Anything that you're seeing on your side as to real opportunities that we will see, just a step function in what your company is using. Jamstack, partnering with Netlify in your ecosystem. What are some of the early things that you see that are exciting you down the line for this? >> Part of it is simply like the whole ecosystem around the gem stalk growing up and the tooling, the APIs, the frameworks available around it, and the level of innovation that's triggered. And especially how it's triggering in... Especially how we're seeing like the potential for small, distributed teams to work together and build things with a global impact in a short time. And I remember a couple of years ago, we did a hackathon with together with freeCodeCamp. And of course, like since it was with freeCodeCamp, it was mostly like teams were mostly fairly new to programming and so on, right? It was pretty amazing to see what over a weekend with this architecture and with this tooling, with the vendors that were present there and helping out and so on, what the small teams could actually get done in a weekend, right? Like I remember the winning team had an app where the whole room would see an image on the main stage screen and then on their phone, try to place that image on the map and you would real time see how people ranked, how close they got and get a winner and so on, right? And that was all just from combining APIs and tooling, like history, like Netlify, like Honor Bee, like Google Maps, and so on, right? And I think, in some way we shouldn't forget just how much this kind of ecosystem of readily available APIs and services around this front end stake. It's allowing people to build things that years ago would have taken a very big team probably like a year to build, and suddenly you can have a relatively small group of relatively new programmers built something really impressive, right? So I think that's a trend we'll see continue accelerating And me and Chris are personally involved in advising and helping out a lot of these new startups in the space that are trying to bring new tooling to the world that makes more and more of these things possible and accessible. >> Well, Chris and Matt, I really appreciate you both joining such an exciting space. Talk about the cloud, agility and innovation, such a robust ecosystem. Thank you so much for joining. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> And I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for joining and look forward to hearing more about your CUBE insight. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is The Cube Conversation. >> Everyone welcome to this special live stream here in The Cube Studios. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got a great panel discussion here for one hour, sponsored by Lumina PR, not sponsored but organized by Lumina PR. An authentic conversation around professionals in the news media, and communication professionals, how they can work together. As we know, pitching stories to national media takes place in the backdrop in today's market, which is on full display. The Coronavirus, racial unrest in our country and a lot of new tech challenges from companies, their role in society with their technology and of course, an election all make for important stories to be developed and reported. And we got a great panel here and the purpose is to bridge the two worlds. People trying to get news out for their companies in a way that's relevant and important for audiences. I've got a great panelists here, Gerard Baker Editor at Large with the Wall Street Journal, Eric Savitz, Associate Editor with Barron's and Brenna Goth who's a Southwest Staff Correspondent with Bloomberg Publications. Thanks for joining me today, guys, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to break this down, we got about an hour, we're going to probably do about 40 minutes. I'd love to get your thoughts in this power panel. And you guys are on the front lines decades of experience, seeing these waves of media evolve. And now more than ever, you can't believe what's happening. You're seeing the funding of journalism really challenging at an all time high. You have stories that are super important to audiences and society really changing and we need this more than ever to have more important stories to be told. So this is really a challenge. And so I want to get your thoughts on this first segment. The challenge is around collecting the data, doing the analysis, getting the stories out, prioritizing stories in this time. So I'd love to get your thoughts. We'll start with you, Brenna, what's your thoughts on this as you're out there in Arizona. Coronavirus on the worst is one of the states there. What are your challenges? >> I would say for me, one of the challenges of the past couple months is just the the sheer influx of different types of stories we've had and the amount of news coming out. So I think one of the challenging things is a lot of times we'll get into a bit of a routine covering one story. So early on maybe the Coronavirus, and then something else will come up. So I personally have been covering some of the Coronavirus news here in Arizona and in the Southwest, as well as some of the protests we've seen with the Black Lives Matter movement. And prioritizing that is pretty difficult. And so one thing that I I've been doing is I've noticed that a lot of my routine projects or things I've been working on earlier in the year are off the table, and I'll get back to them when I have time. But for now, I feel like I'm a little bit more on breaking news almost every day in a way that I wasn't before. >> Gerard, I want to get your thoughts on this. Wall Street Journal has been since I could remember when the web hit the scene early on very digital savvy. Reporting, it's obviously, awesome as well. As you have people in sheltering in place, both journalists and the people themselves and the companies, there's an important part of the digital component. How do you see that as an opportunity and a challenge at the same time because you want to get data out there, you want to be collecting and reporting those stories? How do you see that opportunity, given the challenge that people can't meet face to face? >> First of all, thank you very much for having me. I think as we've all discovered in all fields of endeavor in the last three months, it's been quite a revelation, how much we can do without using without access to the traditional office environment. I think one of the things that Coronavirus, this crisis will have done we all agree I think is that it will have fundamentally changed the way people work. There'll be a lot more people quite a bit more working from home. They'll be a lot more remote working. Generally, there'll be a lot less travel. So on the one hand, it's been eye opening. actually how relatively easy, I use that word carefully. But how we've managed, and I think it's true of all news organizations, how we've managed surprisingly well, I think, without actually being at work. At the Wall Street Journal, we have a big office, obviously in midtown Manhattan, as well as dozens of bureaus around the world. Nobody has really been in that office since the middle of March. And yet we've put out a complete Wall Street Journal product, everything from the print edition, obviously, through every aspect of digital media, the website, all of the apps, video, everything, audio, podcasts. We've been able to do pretty well everything that we could do when we were all working in the office. So I think that will be an important lesson and that will clearly induce some change, some long term changes, I think about the way we work. That said, I'd point to two particular challenges that I think we have not properly overcome. Or if you like that we have, the two impediments, that the crisis has produced for us. One is, as you said, the absence of face to face activity, the hive process, which I think is really important. I think that a lot of the best ideas, a lot of the best, the best stories are developed through conversations between people in an office which don't necessarily we can't necessarily replicate through the online experience through this kind of event or through the Zoom meetings that we've all been doing. I think that has inhibited to some extent, some of the more creative activity that we could have done. I think the second larger problem which we all must face with this is that being essentially locked up in our homes for more than three months, which most of us has been I think accentuates a problem that is already that has been a problem in journalism for a long time, which is that journalists tend to cluster in the major metropolitan areas. I think, a couple of years ago, I read a study which said, I think that more than three quarters of journalists work for major news organizations, print, digital TV, radio, whatever, live and work in one of four major metropolises in the US. That's the New York area, the Washington DC area, the San Francisco area and the LA area. And that tends to create a very narrow worldview, unfortunately, because not enough people either come from those areas, but from outside those areas or spend enough time talking to people from outside those areas. And I think the Coronavirus has accentuated that. And I think in terms of coverage, I'm here in New York. I've been in New York continuously for three and a half months now which is quite unusual, I usually travel a lot. And so my reporting, I write columns now, mainly, but obviously I talk to people too. But the reporting, the editing that we're doing here is inevitably influenced by the experience that we've had in New York, which has obviously been, frankly, devastating. New York has been devastated by Coronavirus in a way that no where else in the country has. And I think to some extent, that does, perhaps have undue influence on the coverage. We're all locked up. We're all mindful of our own health. We're all mindful of people that we know who've gone to hospital or have been very, very sick or where we are, we are heavily influenced by our own immediate environment. And I think that has been a problem if we had been, imagine if the journalists in the country, instead of being clustered in New York and LA and San Francisco had been sort of spread over Texas and Missouri and Florida, things like that. I think you'd have a very different overall accounting of this story over the last three months. So I think it's just, it's accentuated that phenomenon in journalism, which I think we're mindful of, and which we all need to do a better job of addressing. >> It's really interesting. And I want to come back to that point around, who you're collaborating with to get this, now we have virtual ground truth, I guess, how you collaborate. But decision making around stories is, you need an open mind. And if you have this, I guess, I'll call it groupthink or clustering is interesting, now we have digital and we have virtual, it opens up the aperture but we still have the groupthink. But I want to get Eric's take first on his work environment, 'cause I know you've lived on both sides of New York and San Francisco area, as well as you've worked out in the field for agencies, as well on the other side, on the storytelling side. How has this current news environment, journalism environment impacted your view and challenges and your opportunities that you're going after the news? >> Well, so there's there's a few elements here. So one, Barron's Of course, covers the world, looks at the world through a financial lens. We cover the stock market every day. The stock market is not the center of story, but it is an important element of what's been unfolding over the last few months and the markets have been incredibly volatile, we change the way that we approach the markets. Because everything, the big stories are macro stories, huge swings in stock prices, huge swings in the price of oil, dramatic moves in almost every financial security that you can imagine. And so there's a little bit of a struggle for us as we try and shift our daily coverage to be a little more focused on the macro stories as we're still trying to tell what's happening with individual stocks and companies, but these bigger stories have changed our approach. So even if you look at say the covers of our magazine over the last few months, typically, we would do a cover on a company or an investor, that sort of thing. And now they're all big, thematic stories, because the world has changed. And world is changing how it looks at the financial markets. I think one thing that that Gerard touched on is the inability to really leave your house. I'm sitting in my little home office here, where I've been working since March, and my inability to get out and talk to people in person to have some, some interface with the companies and people that I cover, makes it tougher. You get story ideas from those interactions. I think Gerard said some of it comes from your interactions with your colleagues. But some of that also just comes from your ability to interact with sources and that is really tougher to do. It's more formalistic if you do it online. It's just not the same to be on a Zoom call as to be sitting in a Starbucks with somebody and talking about what's going on. I think the other elements of this is that there's, we have a lot of attempts, trying new things trying to reach our readers. We'll do video sessions, we'll do all sorts of other things. And it's one more layer on top of everything else is that there's a lot of demands on the time for the people who are working in journalism right now. I would say one other thing I'll touch on, John, which is, you mentioned, I did use, I worked for public communications for a while, and I do feel their pain because the ability to do any normal PR pitching for new products, new services, the kinds of things that PR people do every day is really tough. It's just really hard to get anybody's attention for those things right now. And the world is focused on these very large problems. >> Well, we'll unpack the PR comms opportunities in the next section. But I want to to just come back to this topic teased out from Gerard and Brenna when you guys were getting out as well. This virtual ground truth, ultimately, at the end of the day, you got to get the stories, you got to report them, they got to be distributed. Obviously, the Wall Street Journal is operating well, by the way, I love the Q&A video chats and what they got going on over there. So the format's are evolving and doing a good job, people are running their business. But as journalists and reporters out there, you got to get the truth and the ground truth comes from interaction. So as you have an aperture with digital, there's also groupthink on, say, Twitter and these channels. So getting in touch with the audience to have those stories. How are you collecting the data? How are you reporting? Has anything changed or shifted that you can point to because ultimately, it's virtual. You still got to get the ground truth, you still got to get the stories. Any thoughts on this point? >> I think in a way what we're seeing is in writ large actually is a problem again, another problem that I think digital journalism or the digital product digital content, if you like, actually presents for us today, which is that it's often said, I think rightly, that one of the, as successful as a lot of digital journalism has been and thank you for what you said about the Wall Street Journal. And we have done a tremendous job and by the way, one of the things that's been a striking feature of this crisis has been the rapid growth in subscriptions that we've had at the Journal. I know other news organizations have too. But we've benefited particularly from a hunger for the quality news. And we've put on an enormous number subscriptions in the last three months. So we've been very fortunate in that respect. But one of the challenges that people always say, one of the one of the drawbacks that people always draw attention to about digital content is that there's a lack of, for want of a better words, serendipity about the experience. When you used to read a newspaper, print newspapers, when may be some of us are old enough to remember, we'd get a newspaper, we'd open it up, we'd look at the front page, we look inside, we'd look at what other sections they were. And we would find things, very large number of things that we weren't particularly, we weren't looking for, we weren't expecting to, we're looking for a story about such. With the digital experience, as we know, that's a much it's a much less serendipitous experience. So you tend to a lot of search, you're looking, you find things that you tend to be looking for, and you find fewer things that, you follow particular people on social media that you have a particular interest in, you follow particular topics and have RSS feeds or whatever else you're doing. And you follow things that, you tend to find things that you were looking for. You don't find many things you weren't. What I think that the virus, the being locked up at home, again, has had a similar effect. That we, again, some of the best stories that I think anybody comes across in life, but news organizations are able to do are those stories that you know that you come across when you might have been looking for something else. You might have been working on a story about a particular company with a particular view to doing one thing and you came across somebody else. And he or she may have told you something actually really quite different and quite interesting and it took you in a different direction. That is easier to do when you're talking to people face to face, when you're actually there, when you're calling, when you're tasked with looking at a topic in the realm. When you are again, sitting at home with your phone on your computer, you tend to be more narrowly so you tend to sort of operate in lanes. And I think that we haven't had the breadth probably of journalism that I think you would get. So that's a very important you talk about data. The data that we have is obviously, we've got access broadly to the same data that we would have, the same electronically delivered data that we would have if we'd been sitting in our office. The data that I think in some ways is more interesting is the non electronically delivered data that is again, the casual conversation, the observation that you might get from being in a particular place or being with someone. The stimuli that arise from being physically in a place that you just aren't getting. And I think that is an important driver of a lot of stories. And we're missing that. >> Well, Gerard, I just want to ask real quick before I go to Brenna on her her take on this. You mentioned the serendipity and taking the stories in certain directions from the interactions. But also there's trust involved. As you build that relationship, there's trust between the parties, and that takes you down that road. How do you develop trust as you are online now? Is there a methodology or technique? Because you want to get the stories out fast, it's a speed game. But there's also the development side of it where a trust equation needs to build. What's your thoughts on that piece? Because that's where the real deeper stories come from. >> So I wasn't sure if you're asking me or Gerard. >> Gerard if he wants can answer that is the trust piece. >> I'll let the others speak to that too. Yeah, it is probably harder to... Again, most probably most people, most stories, most investigative stories, most scoops, most exclusives tend to come from people you already trust, right? So you've developed a trust with them, and they've developed a trust with you. Perhaps more importantly, they know you're going to treat the story fairly and properly. And that tends to develop over time. And I don't think that's been particularly impaired by this process. You don't need to have a physical proximity with someone in order to be able to develop that trust. My sources, I generally speak to them on the phone 99% of the time anyway, and you can still do that from home. So I don't think that's quite... Obviously, again, there are many more benefits from being able to actually physically interact with someone. But I think the level of, trust takes a long time to develop, let's be honest, too, as well. And I think you develop that trust both by developing good sources. and again, as I said, with the sources understanding that you're going to do the story well. >> Brenna, speed game is out there, you got to get stories fast. How do you balance speed and getting the stories and doing some digging into it? What's your thoughts on all this? >> I would say, every week is looking different for me these days. A lot of times there are government announcements coming out, or there are numbers coming out or something that really does require a really quick story. And so what I've been trying to do is get those stories out as quick as possible with maybe sources I already have, or really just the facts on the ground I can get quickly. And then I think in these days, too, there is a ton of room for following up on things. And some news event will come out but it sparks another idea. And that's the time to that when I'm hearing from PR people or I'm hearing from people who care about the issue, right after that first event is really useful for me to hear who else is thinking about these things and maybe ways I can go beyond the first story for something that more in depth and adds more context and provides more value to our readers. >> Awesome. Well, guys, great commentary and insight there on the current situation. The next section is with the role of PR, because it's changing. I've heard the term earned media is a term that's been kicked around. Now we're all virtual, and we're all connected. The media is all virtual. It's all earned at this point. And that's not just a journalistic thing, there's storytelling. There's new voices emerging. You got these newsletter services, audiences are moving very quickly around trying to figure out what's real. So comms folks are trying to get out there and do their job and tell a story. And sometimes that story doesn't meet the cadence of say, news and/or reporting. So let's talk about that. Eric, you brought this up. You have been on both sides. You said you feel for the folks out there who are trying to do their job. How is the job changing? And what can they do now? >> The news cycle is so ferocious at the moment that it's very difficult to insert your weigh in on something that doesn't touch on the virus or the economy or social unrest or the volatility of the financial markets. So I think there's certain kinds of things that are probably best saved for another moment in time, If you're trying to launch new products or trying to announce new services, or those things are just tougher to do right now. I think that the most interesting questions right now are, If I'm a comms person, how can I make myself and my clients a resource to media who are trying to tell stories about these things, do it in a timely way, not overreach, not try insert myself into a story that really isn't a good fit? Now, every time one of these things happen, we got inboxes full of pitches for things that are only tangentially relevant and are probably not really that helpful, either to the reporter generally or to the client of the firm that is trying to pitch an idea. But I will say on the on this at the same time that I rely on my connections to people in corporate comms every single day to make connections with companies that I cover and need to talk to. And it's a moment when almost more than ever, I need immediacy of response, accurate information access to the right people at the companies who I'm trying to cover. But it does mean you need to be I think sharper or a little more pointed a little more your thinking about why am I pitching this person this story? Because the there's no time to waste. We are working 24 hours a day is what it feels like. You don't want to be wasting people's time. >> Well, you guys you guys represent big brands in media which is phenomenal. And anyone would love to have their company mentioned obviously, in a good way, that's their goal. But the word media relations means you relate to the media. If there's no media to relate to, the roles change, and there's not enough seats at the table, so to speak. So getting a clip on in the clip book that gets sent to management, look, "We're on Bloomberg." "Great, check." But is at it? So people, this is a department that needs to do more. Is there things that they can do, that isn't just chasing, getting on your franchises stories? Because it obviously would be great if we were all on Barron's Wall Street Journal, and Bloomberg, but they can't always get that. They still got to do more. They got to develop the relationships. >> John, one thing I would be conscious of here is that many of our publications, it's certainly true for journalists, true for us at Barron's and it's certainly true for Bloomberg. We're all multimedia publishers. We're doing lots of things. Barron's has television show on Fox. We have a video series. We have podcasts and newsletters, and daily live audio chats and all sorts of other stuff in addition to the magazine and the website. And so part of that is trying to figure out not just the right publication, but maybe there's an opportunity to do a very particular, maybe you'd be great fit for this thing, but not that thing. And having a real understanding of what are the moving parts. And then the other part, which is always the hardest part, in a way, is truly understanding not just I want to pitch to Bloomberg, but who do I want to pitch at Bloomberg. So I might have a great story for the Wall Street Journal and maybe Gerard would care but maybe it's really somebody you heard on the street who cares or somebody who's covering a particular company. So you have to navigate that, I think effectively. And even, more so now, because we're not sitting in a newsroom. I can't go yell over to somebody who's a few desks away and suggest they take a look at something. >> Do you think that the comm-- (talk over each other) Do you think the comms teams are savvy and literate in multimedia? Are they still stuck in the print ways or the group swing is they're used to what they're doing and haven't evolved? Is that something that you're seeing here? >> I think it varies. Some people will really get it. I think one of the things that that this comes back to in a sense is it's relationship driven. To Gerard's point, it's not so much about trusting people that I don't know, it's about I've been at this a long time, I know what people I know, who I trust, and they know the things I'm interested in and so that relationship is really important. It's a lot harder to try that with somebody new. And the other thing is, I think relevant here is something that we touched on earlier, which is the idiosyncratic element. The ability for me to go out and see new things is tougher. In the technology business, you could spend half your time just going to events, You could go to the conferences and trade shows and dinners and lunches and coffees all day long. And you would get a lot of good story ideas that way. And now you can't do any of that. >> There's no digital hallway. There are out there. It's called Twitter, I guess or-- >> Well, you're doing it from sitting in this very I'm still doing it from sitting in the same chair, having conversations, in some ways like that. But it's not nearly the same. >> Gerard, Brenna, what do you guys think about the comms opportunity, challenges, either whether it's directly or indirectly, things that they could do differently? Share your thoughts. Gerard, we'll start with you? >> Well, I would echo Eric's point as far as knowing who you're pitching to. And I would say that in, at least for the people I'm working with, some of our beats have changed because there are new issues to cover. Someone's taking more of a role covering virus coverage, someone's taking more of a role covering protests. And so I think knowing instead of casting a really wide net, I'm normally happy to try to direct pitches in the right direction. But I do have less time to do that now. So I think if someone can come to me and say, "I know you've been covering this, "this is how my content fits in with that." It'd grab my attention more and makes it easier for me. So I would say that that is one thing that as beats are shifting and people are taking on a little bit of new roles in our coverage, that that's something PR and marketing teams could definitely keep an eye on. >> I agree with all of that. And all everything everybody said. I'd say two very quick things. One, exactly as everybody said, really know who you are pitching to. It's partly just, it's going to be much more effective if you're pitching to the right person, the right story. But when I say that also make the extra effort to familiarize yourself with the work that that reporter or that editor has done. You cannot, I'm sorry to say, overestimate the vanity of reporters or editors or anybody. And so if you're pitching a story to a particular reporter, in a field, make sure you're familiar with what that person may have done and say to her, "I really thought you did a great job "on the reporting that you did on this." Or, "I read your really interesting piece about that," or "I listened to your podcast." It's a relatively easy thing to do that yields extraordinarily well. A, because it appeals to anybody's fantasy and we all have a little bit of that. But, B, it also suggests to the reporter or the editor or the person involved the PR person communications person pitching them, really knows this, has really done their work and has really actually takes this seriously. And instead of just calling, the number of emails I get, and I'm sure it's the same for the others too, or occasional calls out of the blue or LinkedIn messages. >> I love your work. I love your work. >> (voice cuts out) was technology. Well, I have a technology story for you. It's absolutely valueless. So that's the first thing, I would really emphasize that. The second thing I'd say is, especially on the specific relation to this crisis, this Coronavirus issue is it's a tricky balance to get right. On the one hand, make sure that what you're doing what you're pitching is not completely irrelevant right now. The last three months has not been a very good time to pitch a story about going out with a bunch of people to a crowded restaurant or whatever or something like that to do something. Clearly, we know that. At the same time, don't go to the other extreme and try and make every little thing you have seen every story you may have every product or service or idea that you're pitching don't make it the thing that suddenly is really important because of Coronavirus. I've seen too many of those too. People trying too hard to say, "In this time of crisis, "in this challenging time, what people really want to hear "about is "I don't know, "some new diaper "baby's diaper product that I'm developing or whatever." That's trying too hard. So there is something in the middle, which is, don't pitch the obviously irrelevant story that is just not going to get any attention through this process. >> So you're saying don't-- >> And at the same time, don't go too far in the other direction. And essentially, underestimate the reporter's intelligence 'cause that reporter can tell you, "I can see that you're trying too hard." >> So no shotgun approach, obviously, "Hey, I love your work." Okay, yeah. And then be sensitive to what you're working on not try to force an angle on you, if you're doing a story. Eric, I want to get your thoughts on the evolution of some of the prominent journalists that I've known and/or communication professionals that are taking roles in the big companies to be storytellers, or editors of large companies. I interviewed Andy Cunningham last year, who used to be With Cunningham Communications, and formerly of Apple, better in the tech space and NPR. She said, "Companies have to own their own story "and tell it and put it out there." I've seen journalists say on Facebook, "I'm working on a story of x." And then crowdsource a little inbound. Thoughts on this new role of corporations telling their own story, going direct to the consumers. >> I think to a certain extent, that's valuable. And in some ways, it's a little overrated. There are a lot of companies creating content on their websites, or they're creating their own podcasts or they're creating their own newsletter and those kinds of things. I'm not quite sure how much of that, what the consumption level is for some of those things. I think, to me, the more valuable element of telling your story is less about the form and function and it's more about being able to really tell people, explain to them why what they do matters and to whom it matters, understanding the audience that's going to want to hear your story. There are, to your point, there are quite a few journalists who have migrated to either corporate communications or being in house storytellers of one kind or another for large businesses. And there's certainly a need to figure out the right way to tell your story. I think in a funny way, this is a tougher moment for those things. Because the world is being driven by external events, by these huge global forces are what we're all focused on right now. And it makes it a lot tougher to try and steer your own story at this particular moment in time. And I think you do see it Gerard was talking about don't try and... You want to know what other people are doing. You do want to be aware of what others are writing about. But there's this tendency to want to say, "I saw you wrote a story about Peloton "and we too have a exercise story that you can, "something that's similar." >> (chuckles) A story similar to it. We have a dance video or something. People are trying to glam on to things and taking a few steps too far. But in terms of your original question, it's just tougher at the moment to control your story in that particular fashion, I think. >> Well, this brings up a good point. I want to get to Gerard's take on this because the Wall Street Journal obviously has been around for many, many decades. and it's institution in journalism. In the old days, if you weren't relevant enough to make the news, if you weren't the most important story that people cared about, the editors make that choice and you're on the front page or in a story editorially. And companies would say, "No, but I should be in there." And you'd say, "That's what advertising is for." And that's the way it seemed to work in the past. If you weren't relevant in the spirit of the decision making of important story or it needs to be communicated to the audience, there's ads for that. You can get a full page ad in the old days. Now with the new world, what's an ad, what's a story? You now have multiple omni-channels out there. So traditionally, you want to get the best, most important story that's about relevance. So companies might not have a relevant story and they're telling a boring story. There's no there, there, or they miss the story. How do you see this? 'Cause this is the blend, this is the gray area that I see. It's certainly a good story, depending on who you're talking to, the 10 people who like it. >> I think there's no question. We're in the news business, topicality matters. You're going to have a much better chance of getting your story, getting your product or service, whatever covered by the Wall Street Journal, Barron's or anywhere else for that matter, if it seems somehow news related, whether it's the virus or the unrest that we've been seeing, or it's to do with the economy. Clearly, you can have an effect. Newspapers, news organizations of all the three news organizations we represent don't just, are not just obviously completely obsessed with what happened this morning and what's going on right now. We are all digging into deeper stories, especially in the business field. Part of what we all do is actually try to get beyond the daily headlines. And so what's happening with the fortunes of a particular company. Obviously, they may be impacted by they're going to be impacted by the lockdown and Coronavirus. But they actually were doing some interesting things that they were developing over the long term, and we would like to look into that too. So again, there is a balance there. And I'm not going to pretend that if you have a really topical story about some new medical device or some new technology for dealing with this new world that we're all operating in, you're probably going to get more attention than you would if you don't have that. But I wouldn't also underestimate, the other thing is, as well as topicality, everybody's looking at the same time to be different, and every journalist wants to do something original and exclusive. And so they are looking for a good story that may be completely unrelated. In fact, I would also underestimate, I wouldn't underestimate either the desire of readers and viewers and listeners to actually have some deeper reported stories on subjects that are not directly in the news right now. So again, it's about striking the balance right. But I wouldn't say that, that there is not at all, I wouldn't say there is not a strong role for interesting stories that may not have anything to do what's going on with the news right now. >> Brenna, you want to add on your thoughts, you're in the front lines as well, Bloomberg, everyone wants to be on Bloomberg. There's Bloomberg radio. You guys got tons of media too, there's tons of stuff to do. How do they navigate? And how do you view the interactions with comms folks? >> It looks we're having a little bit of challenge with... Eric, your thoughts on comm professionals. The questions in the chats are everything's so fast paced, do you think it's less likely for reporters to respond to PR comms people who don't have interacted with you before? Or with people you haven't met before? >> It's an internal problem. I've seen data that talks about the ratio of comms people to reporters, and it's, I don't know, six or seven to one or something like that, and there are days when it feels like it's 70 to one. And so it is challenging to break through. And I think it's particularly challenging now because some of the tools you might have had, you might have said, "Can we grab coffee one day or something like that," trying to find ways to get in front of that person when you don't need them. It's a relationship business. I know this is a frustrating answer, but I think it's the right answer which is those relationships between media and comms people are most successful when they've been established over time. And so you're not getting... The spray and pray strategy doesn't really work. It's about, "Eric, I have a story that's perfect for you. "And here's why I think you you should talk to this guy." And if they really know me, there's a reasonable chance that I'll not only listen to them, but I'll at least take the call. You need to have that high degree of targeting. It is really hard to break through and people try everything. They try, the insincere version of the, "I read your story, it was great. "but here's another great story." Which maybe they read your story, maybe they didn't at least it was an attempt. Or, "if you like this company, you'll love that one." People try all these tricks to try and get get to you. I think the highest level of highest probability of success comes from the more information you have about not just what I covered yesterday, but what do I cover over time? What kinds of stories am I writing? What kinds of stories does the publication write? And also to keep the pitching tight, I was big believer when I was doing comms, you should be able to pitch stories in two sentences. And you'll know from that whether there's going to be connection or not, don't send me five or more pitches. Time is of the essence, keep it short and as targeted as possible. >> That's a good answer to Paul Bernardo's question in the chat, which is how do you do the pitch. Brenna, you're back. Can you hear us? No. Okay. We'll get back to her when she gets logged back in. Gerard, your thoughts on how to reach you. I've never met you before, if I'm a CEO or I'm a comms person, a company never heard of, how do I get your attention? If I can't have a coffee with you with COVID, how do I connect with you virtually? (talk over each other) >> Exactly as Eric said, it is about targeting, it's really about making sure you are. And again, it's, I hate to say this, but it's not that hard. If you are the comms person for a large or medium sized company or even a small company, and you've got a particular pitch you want to make, you're probably dealing in a particular field, a particular sector, business sector or whatever. Let's say it says not technology for change, let's say it's fast moving consumer goods or something like that. Bloomberg, Brenna is in an enormous organization with a huge number of journalist you deal and a great deal of specialism and quality with all kinds of sectors. The Wall Street Journal is a very large organization, we have 13, 1400 reporters, 13 to 1400 hundred journalist and staff, I should say. Barron's is a very large organization with especially a particularly strong field coverage, especially in certain sectors of business and finance. It's not that hard to find out A, who is the right person, actually the right person in those organizations who's been dealing with the story that you're trying to sell. Secondly, it's absolutely not hard to find out what they have written or broadcast or produced on in that general field in the course of the last, and again, as Eric says, going back not just over the last week or two, but over the last year or two, you can get a sense of their specialism and understand them. It's really not that hard. It's the work of an hour to go back and see who the right person is and to find out what they've done. And then to tailor the pitch that you're making to that person. And again, I say that partly, it's not purely about the vanity of the reporter, it's that the reporter will just be much more favorably inclined to deal with someone who clearly knows, frankly, not just what they're pitching, but what the journalist is doing and what he or she, in his or her daily activity is actually doing. Target it as narrowly as you can. And again, I would just echo what Eric and I think what Brenna was also saying earlier too that I'm really genuinely surprised at how many very broad pitches, again, I'm not directly in a relative role now. But I was the editor in chief of the Journal for almost six years. And even in that position, the number of extraordinarily broad pitches I get from people who clearly didn't really know who I was, who didn't know what I did, and in some cases, didn't even really know what Wall Street Journal was. If you can find that, if you actually believe that. It's not hard. It's not that hard to do that. And you will have so much more success, if you are identifying the organization, the people, the types of stories that they're interested in, it really is not that difficult to do. >> Okay, I really appreciate, first of all, great insight there. I want to get some questions from the crowd so if you're going to chat, there was a little bit of a chat hiccup in there. So it should be fixed. We're going to go to the chat for some questions for this distinguished panel. Talk about the new coffee. There's a good question here. Have you noticed news fatigue, or reader seeking out news other than COVID? If so, what news stories have you been seeing trending? In other words, are people sick and tired of COVID? Or is it still on the front pages? Is that relevant? And if not COVID, what stories are important, do you think? >> Well, I could take a brief stab at that. I think it's not just COVID per se, for us, the volatility of the stock market, the uncertainties in the current economic environment, the impact on on joblessness, these massive shifts of perceptions on urban lifestyles. There's a million elements of this that go beyond the core, what's happening with the virus story. I do think as a whole, all those things, and then you combine that with the social unrest and Black Lives Matter. And then on top of that, the pending election in the fall. There's just not a lot of room left for other stuff. And I think I would look at it a little bit differently. It's not finding stories that don't talk on those things, it's finding ways for coverage of other things whether it's entertainment. Obviously, there's a huge impact on the entertainment business. There's a huge impact on sports. There's obviously a huge impact on travel and retail and restaurants and even things like religious life and schooling. I have the done parents of a college, was about to be a college sophomore, prays every day that she can go back to school in the fall. There are lots of elements to this. And it's pretty hard to imagine I would say to Gerard's point earlier, people are looking for good stories, they're always looking for good stories on any, but trying to find topics that don't touch on any of these big trends, there's not a lot of reasons to look for those. >> I agree. Let me just give you an example. I think Eric's exactly right. It's hard to break through. I'll just give you an example, when you asked that question, I just went straight to my Wall Street Journal app on my phone. And of course, like every organization, you can look at stories by sections and by interest and by topic and by popularity. And what are the three most popular stories right now on the Wall Street Journal app? I can tell you the first one is how exactly do you catch COVID-19? I think that's been around since for about a month. The second story is cases accelerate across the United States. And the third story is New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, tell travelers from areas with virus rates to self isolate. So look, I think anecdotally, there is a sense of COVID fatigue. Well, we're all slightly tired of it. And certainly, we were probably all getting tired, or rather distressed by those terrible cases and when we've seen them really accelerate back in March and April and these awful stories of people getting sick and dying. I was COVID fatigued. But I just have to say all of the evidence we have from our data, in terms of as I said earlier, the interest in the story, the demand for what we're doing, the growth in subscriptions that we've had, and just as I said, little things like that, that I can point you at any one time, I can guarantee you that our among our top 10 most read stories, at least half of them will be COVID-19. >> I think it's safe to say general interest in that outcome of progression of that is super critical. And I think this brings up the tech angle, which we can get into a minute. But just stick with some of these questions I just want to just keep these questions flowing while we have a couple more minutes left here. In these very challenging times for journalism, do byline articles have more power to grab the editors attention in the pitching process? >> Well, I think I assume what the questioner is asking when he said byline articles is contributed. >> Yes. >> Contributed content. Barron's doesn't run a lot of contributing content that way in a very limited way. When I worked at Forbes, we used to run tons of it. I'm not a big believer that that's necessarily a great way to generate a lot of attention. You might get published in some publication, if you can get yourself onto the op ed page of The Wall Street Journal or The New York Times, more power to you. But I think in most cases-- >> It's the exception not the rule Exception not the rule so to speak, on the big one. >> Yeah. >> Well, this brings up the whole point about certainly on SiliconANGLE, our property, where I'm co founder and chief, we basically debate over and get so many pitches, "hey, I want to write for you, here's a contributed article." And it's essentially an advertisement. Come on, really, it's not really relevant. In some case we (talk over each other) analysts come in and and done that. But this brings up the question, we're seeing these newsletters like sub stack and these services really are funding direct journalism. So it's an interesting. if you're good enough to write Gerard, what's your take on this, you've seen this, you have a bit of experience in this. >> I think, fundamental problem here is that is people like the idea of doing by lines or contributed content, but often don't have enough to say. You can't just do, turn your marketing brochure into a piece of an 800 word with the content that that's going to be compelling or really attract any attention. I think there's a place for it, if you truly have something important to say, and if you really have something new to say, and it's not thinly disguised marketing material. Yeah, you can find a way to do that. I'm not sure I would over-rotate on that as an approach. >> No, I just briefly, again, I completely agree. At the Journal we just don't ever publish those pieces. As Eric says, you're always, everyone is always welcome to try and pitch to the op ed pages of the Journal. They're not generally going to I don't answer for them, I don't make those decisions. But I've never seen a marketing pitch run as an op ed effectively. I just think you have to know again, who you're aiming at. I'm sure it's true for Bloomberg, Barron's and the Journal, most other major news organizations are not really going to consider that. There might be organizations, there might be magazines, digital and print magazines. There might be certain trade publications that would consider that. Again, at the Journal and I'm sure most of the large news organizations, we have very strict rules about what we can publish. And how and who can get published. And it's essentially journal editorials, that journal news staff who can publish stories we don't really take byline, outside contribution. >> Given that your time is so valuable, guys, what's the biggest, best practice to get your attention? Eric, you mentioned keeping things tight and crisp. Are there certain techniques to get your attention? >> Well I'll mention just a couple of quick things. Email is better than most other channels, despite the volume. Patience is required as a result because of the volume. People do try and crawl over the transom, hit you up on LinkedIn, DM you on Twitter, there's a lot of things that people try and do. I think a very tightly crafted, highly personalized email with the right subject line is probably still the most effective way, unless it's somebody you actually, there are people who know me who know they have the right to pick up the phone and call me if they really think they have... That's a relationship that's built over time. The one thing on this I would add which I think came up a little bit before thinking about it is, you have to engage in retail PR, not not wholesale PR. The idea that you're going to spam a list of 100 people and think that that's really going to be a successful approach, it's not unless you're just making an announcement, and if you're issuing your earnings release, or you've announced a large acquisition or those things, fine, then I need to get the information. But simply sending around a very wide list is not a good strategy, in most cases, I would say probably for anyone. >> We got Brenna back, can you hear me? She's back, okay. >> I can hear you, I'm back. >> Well, let's go back to you, we missed you. Thanks for coming back in. We had a glitch on our end but appreciate it, bandwidth internet is for... Virtual is always a challenge to do live, but thank you. The trend we're just going through is how do I pitch to you? What's the best practice? How do I get your attention? Do bylines lines work? Actually, Bloomberg doesn't do that very often either as well as like the Journal. but your thoughts on folks out there who are really trying to figure out how to do a good job, how to get your attention, how to augment your role and responsibilities. What's your thoughts? >> I would say, going back to what we said a little bit before about really knowing who you're pitching to. If you know something that I've written recently that you can reference, that gets my attention. But I would also encourage people to try to think about different ways that they can be part of a story if they are looking to be mentioned in one of our articles. And what I mean by that is, maybe you are launching new products or you have a new initiative, but think about other ways that your companies relate to what's going on right now. So for instance, one thing that I'm really interested in is just the the changing nature of work in the office place itself. So maybe you know of something that's going on at a company, unlimited vacation for the first time or sabbaticals are being offered to working parents who have nowhere to send their children, or something that's unique about the current moment that we're living in. And I think that those make really good interviews. So it might not be us featuring your product or featuring exactly what your company does, but it still makes you part of the conversation. And I think it's still, it's probably valuable to the company as well to get that mention, and people may be looking into what you guys do. So I would say that something else we are really interested in right now is really looking at who we're quoting and the diversity of our sources. So that's something else I would put a plug in for PR people to be keeping an eye on, is if you're always putting up your same CEO who is maybe of a certain demographic, but you have other people in your company who you can give the opportunity to talk with the media. I'm really interested in making sure I'm using a diverse list of sources and I'm not just always calling the same person. So if you can identify people who maybe even aren't experienced with it, but they're willing to give it a try, I think that now's a really good moment to be able to get new voices in there. >> Rather than the speed dial person you go to for that vertical or that story, building out those sources. >> Exactly. >> Great, that's great insight, Everyone, great insights. And thank you for your time on this awesome panel. Love to do it again. This has been super informative. I love some of the engagement out there. And again, I think we can do more of these and get the word out. I'd like to end the panel on an uplifting note for young aspiring journalists coming out of school. Honestly, journalism programs are evolving. The landscape is changing. We're seeing a sea change. As younger generation comes out of college and master's programs in journalism, we need to tell the most important stories. Could you each take a minute to give your advice to folks either going in and coming out of school, what to be prepared for, how they can make an impact? Brenna, we'll start with you, Gerard and Eric. >> That's a big question. I would say one thing that has been been encouraging about everything going on right now as I have seen an increased hunger for information and an increased hunger for accurate information. So I do think it can obviously be disheartening to look at the furloughs and the layoffs and everything that is going on around the country. But at the same time, I think we have been able to see really big impacts from the people that are doing reporting on protests and police brutality and on responses to the virus. And so I think for young journalists, definitely take a look at the people who are doing work that you think is making a difference. And be inspired by that to keep pushing even though the market might be a little bit difficult for a while. >> I'd say two things. One, again, echoing what Brenna said, identify people that you follow or you admire or you think are making a real contribution in the field and maybe directly interact with them. I think all of us, whoever we are, always like to hear from young journalists and budding journalists. And again, similar advice to giving to the advice that we were giving about PR pitches. If you know what that person has been doing, and then contact them and follow them. And I know I've been contacted by a number of young journalists like that. The other thing I'd say is and this is more of a plea than a piece of advice. But I do think it will work in the long run, be prepared to go against the grain. I fear that too much journalism today is of the same piece. There is not a lot of intellectual diversity in what we're seeing There's a tendency to follow the herd. Goes back a little bit to what I was saying right at the opening about the fact that too many journalists, quite frankly, are clustered in the major metropolitan areas in this country and around the world. Have something distinctive and a bit different to say. I'm not suggesting you offer some crazy theory or a set of observations about the world but be prepared to... To me, the reason I went into journalism was because I was always a bit skeptical about whenever I saw something in any media, which especially one which seemed to have a huge amount of support and was repeated in all places, I always asked myself, "Is that really true? "Is that actually right? "Maybe there's an alternative to that." And that's going to make you stand out as a journalist, that's going to give you a distinctiveness. It's quite hard to do in some respects right now, because standing out from the crowd can get you into trouble. And I'm not suggesting that people should do that. Have a record of original storytelling, of reporting, of doing things perhaps that not, because look, candidly, there are probably right now in this country, 100,00 budding putative journalists who would like to go out and write about, report on Black Lives Matter and the reports on the problems of racial inequality in this country and the protests and all of that kind of stuff. The problem there is there are already 100,000 of those people who want to do that in addition to probably the 100,000 journalists who are already doing it. Find something else, find something different. have something distinctive to offer so that when attention moves on from these big stories, whether it's COVID or race or politics or the election or Donald Trump or whatever. Have something else to offer that is quite distinctive and where you have actually managed to carve out for yourself a real record as having an independent voice. >> Brenna and Gerard, great insight. Eric, take us home close us out. >> Sure. I'd say a couple things. So one is as a new, as a young journalist, I think first of all, having a variety of tools in your toolkit is super valuable. So be able to write long and write short, be able to do audio, blogs, podcast, video. If you can shoot photos and the more skills that you have, a following on social media. You want to have all of the tools in your toolkit because it is challenging to get a job and so you want to be able to be flexible enough to fill all those roles. And the truth is that a modern journalist is finding the need to do all of that. When I first started at Barron's many, many years ago, we did one thing, we did a weekly magazine. You'd have two weeks to write a story. It was very comfortable. And that's just not the way the world works anymore. So that's one element. And the other thing, I think Gerard is right. You really want to have a certain expertise if possible that makes you stand out. And the contradiction is, but you also want to have the flexibility to do lots of different stories. You want to get (voice cuts out) hold. But if you have some expertise, that is hard to find, that's really valuable. When Barron's hires we're always looking for people who have, can write well but also really understand the financial markets. And it can be challenging for us sometimes to find those people. And so I think there's, you need to go short and long. It's a barbell strategy. Have expertise, but also be flexible in both your approach and the things you're willing to cover. >> Great insight. Folks, thanks for the great commentary, great chats for the folks watching, really appreciate your valuable time. Be original, go against the grain, be skeptical, and just do a good job. I think there's a lot of opportunity. And I think the world's changing. Thanks for your time. And I hope the comms folks enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for joining us, everyone. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> I'm John Furrier here in the Cube for this Cube Talk was one hour power panel. Awesome conversation. Stay in chat if you want to ask more questions. We'll come back and look at those chats later. But thank you for watching. Have a nice day. (instrumental music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by RedHat, a CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome back to Kubecon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer, and happy to welcome back to the program, was on the keynote stage earlier at the conference, Derek Collison is the founder and CEO of Synadia. >> Yes, welcome. >> Stu: Showing the logo, thanks so much for joining us, Derek. >> Oh, thank you, I really appreciate it, it's been a while. >> Yeah, it has, so you know, we've known you for many years, had you on the program, you look at us, you've got one of those VIP logos 'cause you've been on the show a few times, and you've seen a couple of these waves. Latest thing, of course, you're talking a lot about NATS, but of course Cloud Foundry you built that, so you've seen a lot of these waves, but I want to start with something you said that I thought was really thought-provoking and interesting. A lot of people, we talk about the Cloud economy, talk about the data economy... You talk about the connective economy, so, explain to our audience a little bit what that means. >> So, the general gist of it is, hey, where's the innovation and where's the value coming out of information technology, IT, infrastructure and things like that, and for a long time, we were swept up in the Cloud economy, which was how you move from CapEx into OpEx, and things like that, and then of course it was all about data. And it still is about data, but if you notice, it's not the data moving to where you're trying to process things, now it's all of a sudden being distributed, and so you take that, and you take MicroServices, and you take all these things, and at least from my perspective, I see the value driving out of these systems now is in, how are they connected? How are you observing them, how are you securing them and trusting them? And I believe that's where the value in the next wave of innovation's going to come from. >> Yeah, it's funny, I hear sometimes we talk about the pendulum of technology, and I look in the ten years we've been doing this, really we're talking about the journey along the distributed architecture we've been trying to build, and it's not moving back and forth, but it's kind of... >> Derek: Circling. >> It's kind of circling, and some of the themes are repeating, but it's growing that along the way, so, give us NATS and messaging, how this plays into helping to solve that communication issue, it's the kind of thing, we read about in the Google papers as to, global distributed architectures. >> Yeah, so, the general gist is that NATS was built to power Cloud Foundry, right, and that was the deployment mechanism for applications and such like that. And NATS, just like a lot of the other technologies, was built for an itch I needed to scratch. And it was a silo technology. So about two years ago, we had the opportunity to actually think about if we wanted to make a business out of NATS, right? And any time you say open source and commercial entity, there's challenges, and I don't think anyone has all of the answers. But the answer we came up with internally as a team was, we need to build something that's value is greater than the sum of its parts. I personally, again, and a lot of people won't agree with me and that's okay, I don't believe in the open core model. I don't believe in the fact that you make certain enterprise features and certain open source features. However, what I do believe is that if we could take a communication technology and make it a true utility, like the global cellular now, or the Internet, and connect everything, we'd have these opportunities that no one could foresee, for example, with the web, or even with the global cellular network and what people think is about to happen with the 5G. So we took NATS, which is a very mature technology, made it multi-tinted, made it very, very forward-looking secure, made it run in any Cloud, Edge, IoT, with the hope that we could encourage people to connect everything, start isolated, but have the ability to say, hey, we want to start sharing data securely in an audited way, that it's drop-dead simple to do. It's not a, let's plan a six-month project to integrate your systems with these systems and things like that, and so that's the gist of what we're trying to do, and we believe that running this thing as a server as such that it's a utility, it's not just something for you or for you or for me, it's that we're all using the same thing and we're all connected if we want to be, we think there's value there. >> Derek, maybe let's go in a little bit on NATS, and the service you're running too, but maybe educate us a little bit on the landscape here. We've already talked about IoT, Cloud data, VAP messaging, and I think people understand, to a certain extent, what a messaging system is, sometimes it gets conflated with a streaming system, maybe you could talk about what NATS does really well, we've talked about security, we've talked about a few other things, you've teased already here, but how should we be thinking about NATS? >> Well, I think, outside of NATS, just in general, any type of way of communications, we need to think secure by default, right? We can't do what happened with the Internet, where we go, ooh, it'd be really nice to do these kind of things, but we need security. And we have to wait, as a group of excited individuals, probably 15 years to get that, we can't do that in this generation with IoT and things. But when you look at NATS, or any technology, there's essentially two types of patterns that anybody wants to support. A service-based pattern, where I ask you a question, you give me an answer, ninety-plus percent of distributed systems today, that's their main architectural pattern. So I'm coordinating and asking a lot of questions of these services, micro-services, you know, has become popular. Streaming is now becoming popular with things like Kafka and stuff like that, it's been around for a while, but that's the second, other pattern. So it's like, I'm emitting events or data streams or things like that, and they could be persisted or not, but essentially if you want to make it simple, it's services and streams, and for us, we wanted technology that did equally well in both of them, right, you didn't have to pick one technology for one pattern and another one for a different one. >> All right, let's talk a little bit about your business. So you talked a little bit about kind of the business model, so explain the business model, what you're doing, how that actually goes together? >> Yeah, and for the viewers, this is our take on it, which means it's advice, you get what you pay for, it's free, type of stuff, but, you know... Been around the block a little bit. So, when we started out, what we didn't want to do is ignore the old models. I don't think a long-term business model is the old models, meaning recurring support, consulting, NRE work type of stuff, but I've also seen startups that ignore that and say, "no, we're not going to do that at all." And I did a little bit of that with my prior company, so we embrace that, but we know long-term that's not going to be it. So we deploy a global network, we have a global network, it's available with a single URL, secure by default, runs in every Cloud, every major GO, and more importantly, you can extend it on your own, on your own servers, with the RN off to do that. And we believe that Saas model, that utility model where, again, its value is greater than the sum of its parts, allows us to keep everything open-source, but there's a value in being connected to this network. Multi-Cloud, Cloud to Edge, all that kind of stuff. And what we want is we want customers to slowly transition to that. I've been telling people there's basic cable, which is like, just the dial tone, then there's going to be premium channels on that, that you can pay for, like storage, DR, secrets, zero-trust mechanisms, anomaly detection around communication patterns. People might opt in and say, "ooh, we want to pay for those things 'cause they're interesting to us." And then the last piece of that pie is, there may be people who are running against the global utility, running their own servers, and they go, "that service right there inside of that system, we love it, we want it on premise, can we actually license it from you?" So it's a combination of softwares and service, license revenue, and recurring support. >> Okay, and so, are you enabling partners to deliver those services, is that Synadia does that themselves, where do those premium services come from? >> So, we're going to seed the market, but yeah, we want it to be an open marketplace, and what we will provide is things like billing and such like that, almost, not exactly, but almost like the app store, the Apple app store, where someone who just wants to write a simple service, and if people like it, they don't have to do much, they just have it run and it's receiving stuff and they just get paid. So we do think that's a federated model. Believe it or not, we also feel running the network on a global scale is also federated. So we've designed it such that we don't have to be the only operators. Matter of fact, if we're successful, we're the smallest operator going forward. But, the system is always interconnected, right, so if John's trying to connect in and he's connecting to a Google server, I can connect to that server also, even though Synadia might have actually granted me the rights to access the system. And so we're working on that, we're thinking about that, but Cloud providers are really good at running infrastructure and running services on that infrastructure. We want to embrace that, we just want to make sure that any user of the system, it's like a SIM card that's unlocked, essentially, right? You could go to any provider that you want and it works, that's what we want to make sure we set up for. >> Right, it seems like a great example of this next wave of companies that's being built on top of the existing Cloud infrastructure. You don't have to be a hoster yourself, you could take advantage of and partner with all the other infrastructure providers and interconnect them in several different ways. Maybe, Derek, could you give us an example of an app, what an app might look like that's globally distributed and what kind of messages would be being passed back and forth? >> Sure, so, we're about to release something on Synadia where we truly believe, at the base of everything, it's just sending messages. And so, most people think of NATS as a communication mechanism, and it is, but when we say storage or state storage, they kind of say, "oh, NATS doesn't do that." But we can send a message to a KV service that says KV.set, and I could send a message that says KV get and get it back. Now, what's interesting is, we can make that zero trust, meaning, it leaves your app totally encrypted, so none of our servers, none of Google, Amazon, or Azure's servers, actually even understand what the heck it is, but what's interesting is, you could connect to any of our servers worldwide, or even run your own servers, and connect to those, and it works, all the time. We have another one that's just a usage server, meaning it tells you how much usage you've been racking up, let's say, over the month, kind of like a cell bill. And the way we built it was, there's multiple servers that are running, collecting this data, totally independent, there's no consensus. Everyone has the same subject, NGS.usage, you send a request saying, "what's my usage for the last hour?" Yet the backend service, guaranteed secure, trusted, it receives a request that it knows it's John, knows it's Stu, knows it's Derek, and so it can say, "oh, I'm trying to get John's usage, I'm trying to get Stu's usage." Yet the user experience is, everyone does the same thing, which we think is extremely powerful. And you don't have to do anything unnatural to get that with a system like NATS, right, where we tried to put security first and really think hard about what it meant, and that wasn't fun, it wasn't easy, but we think it's important. >> Yeah. So, Derek, I want to kind of step up-level a second here, 'cause you've got some great viewpoints on things, so, there's some people that look at a show like this or look at the industry and say, "Ah, there's all this hype around multi-Cloud, but there's a lot of challenges." Does it become least common denominator? How do these things work together? My definition that I've been saying for a while, I'll use a phrase you've used a couple of times. If, for multi-Cloud to be real, the value that I get out of it has to be greater than the sum of its parts. You live through the PaaS and the post-PaaS era, you've done a number of environments here, so where are we today, where do we need to go as an industry, as a whole, to reach that value statement that we talk about? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Even from day one in Cloud Foundry, I've believed in multi-Cloud, but I've watched how the markets have actually reacted and what they are doing, and the first wave in my perspective was, posturing for better pricing. To be honest with you, it was Netflix go, "hey we're going to move to Google unless you give us a better price." And I've seen that time and time again. Where it becomes real, though, is, when there's a class of service in a given Cloud provider, that is extremely attractive. Amazon, just in terms of the breadth, Azure a lot for some of the big data stuff, Google a lot for some of the AI stuff they have. Where an organization has a legitimate use to say "we really need best of breed in AI," best of breed in, let's say, big data, and they want to run an app in Azure and an app in Google, and that's kind of the realest situation I've seen. The notion of running something that's truly oblivious and can run anywhere, it's possible, but your lowest common denominators compute and simple storage, and a lot of times, that's not actually distinguishing. So I still see a lot of pricing pressure, you know, posturing, around multi-Cloud, just as a negotiation tactic. Where I see it being real is, this class of app, we want to run it in this Cloud provider to access these services that are differentiating. >> Derek, you have been around for a few generations of Stack wars, PaaS wars, I don't know that they need a name. Any advice to application architects and technologists who are choosing technologies here? I mean, here at this conference, Kubernetes is kind of a common assumption for a lot of what people are doing, not everybody, but there's a lot of other parts that plug into it, and a lot of other decisions to be made about architectures, and about, everything from messaging, to security, to networking, to storage, and I can go on and on and on and on. So, I mean how... Again, you've seen this happen a couple times, people having to pick and make choices, worried about lock-in, whatever they're worried about, I don't know. What are your thoughts on what's the, what are the right ways to do this so you actually succeed? >> Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And yeah, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth quite a bit, but I think for the viewers, I can simplify it, at least from my perspective. It goes between choice and simplicity. So if you look in even the PaaS wars versus IaS versus all that stuff, PaaS was a swing towards simplicity, get stuff done, you know what I mean? And then there was like, "oh, I can get stuff done, but I don't have enough choice." So we saw this swing back, and I think Kubernetes hit at the absolute perfect time to take advantage of, "hey, we need choice at these base layers," right? And the way Kubernetes was architected was to give you that full choice. So if a startup's coming along and saying, okay, given the fact that the pendulum's over here, knowing it's going to be swinging back, and at least in my opinion, we're swinging back for simplicity, concentrate on, how do you simplify what people are struggling with today? So at this conference, there's a tremendous amount of people, you can get a lot of insight into what's going on, ask 'em where it hurts, you know what I mean? What are you struggling with? How long have you been struggling with it? And then solve those problems, especially when the pendulum you know is starting to swing back around. Hey, can we do this in a more simplified way, why does it have to be so hard? Those are the big opportunities right now. But again, it'll swing this way, and it'll swing back, eventually it'll get to the middle, and then we'll pick a whole other class of problems to, you know, swing back and forth from. >> Well, you know, it actually, it's not surprising to me that you're actually echoing a comment that Steve Harrod made on the program yesterday, saying when he goes and talks to all the companies here, it's, tell me how you make my life better as a company, and that's what we need to focus on. That wave toward simplicity absolutely is something we see, it's something we've been driving toward from Kubernetes, but an area that you're spending some time in talking about at the keynote, Edge computing. And absolutely, we need simplicity for that to be able to come there. What are you seeing in the Edge space, what's real, customers you're talking to, give us a little bit of forward-looking as where you see that whole space going. >> Yeah, so, I mean, for me, Edge and IoT, you can define it a lot of different ways, but even for enterprise companies that are here, it's, hey, do you deploy a piece of software out into the field, or a hardware/software combination? So, Bose headsets, Peloton bikes, whatever, that's kind of an industrial IoT type of thing. I see a lot of people wanting to drag what they think works in Cloud out to the Edge. Kubernetes works here, we're going to drag it out here. We're just going to slim it up a little bit and package it. I don't know if that's the right answer. What I think we need to think about is how do we get data and compute, compute meaning processing of that data, securely in a trusted fashion out to the Edge, however that works? It doesn't necessarily mean we have to have all the same pieces, but you have to say, I want to push an update and I want it to go over the air so to speak to the Edge, I want to be able to trust that it's doing the right thing. And so I think there's a massive amount of opportunity around that, and in how do you move all those pieces around. And what we're trying to do at Synadia is encompassing both, right? So we started with the secure by default, trusting in the beginning, and then if we say, hey, it's just messages, and in the keynote, I talked a little bit about our excitement around web assembly. But where we get excited about it is, we give you a drop-dead easy system and say, I want to digitally sign that web assembly for use in this certain situation at the Edge. And then that shovels it out there, and the system looks at it, verifies that it was signed by John, and says, yep, I can run this now. And so we're looking very heavily at those types of opportunities. We don't care how the things are deployed per se, but I would say that I think as you get further out, I think you're going to see more common denominators around web assembly, secure and signed web assemblies, than on how we actually deploy them. So you're going to see lighter weight things, not to say that Kubernetes might not have relevance out there, but I don't think it's needed to get to where we want. We need that trust factor, ubiquitous, communications to really kind of light that field up. The other one at least that we feel we need to meet the customer where they're at, is most of the IoT type devices are MQTT. And so we talked also that in Q1, we're going to allow native MQTT apps to connect directly into a NATS server and the NGS ecosystem, meaning you get the best of both worlds as well. Then an Edge router's running a NATS server, could be a raspberry pie, thousands of devices all connecting in, we think that connectivity and trust will light up a lot of opportunities. >> All right, well, Derek, always a pleasure to catch up with you, thanks so much for the updates. >> Thank you guys, I really appreciate it. >> All right. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here at Kubecon CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching theCUBE.