>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of H P S. Green Lake announcement. We've been following Green Lake and the cadence of announcements making. Now we're gonna talk about ransomware, ransomware become a household term. But what people really don't understand is that virtually any bad actor can become a ransomware criminal by going on the dark web hiring a ransomware as a service sticking, putting a stick into a server and taking a piece of the action and that is a really insidious threat. Uh, the adversaries are extremely capable, so we're going to dig into that with Omar assad, who's the storage platform, lead cloud data services at H P E and Deepak verma vice president of product Zito, which is now an H P E company Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thank you. >>Thank you. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. So >>over you heard my little narrative upfront. How does the Xarelto acquisition fit into that discourse? >>Thank you. Dave first of all, we're extremely excited to welcome Sir toe into the HP family. Uh, the acquisition of Puerto expands the Green Lake offerings from H P E uh, into the data protection as a service and ransomware protection as a service capabilities and it at the same time accelerates the transformation that the HP storage businesses going through as it transforms itself into more of a cloud native business, which sort of follows on from the May 4th announcements that you helped us cover. Uh, this enables the HP sales teams to now expand the data protection perimeter and to start offering data protection as a service and ransomware as a service with the best in class technologies uh, from a protection site as well as from ransomware recovery side of the house. And so we're all the way down already trying to integrate uh, you know, the little offerings as part of the Green lake offerings and extending support through our services organization. And the more of these announcements are gonna roll out later in the month. >>And I think that's what you want to see from it as a service offering. You want to see a fast cadence of new services that are not a box by a box that are applying. No, it's services that you want to access. So let's, let's talk about before we get into the tech, can we talk about how you're helping customers deal with ransomware? Maybe some of the use cases that you're seeing. >>First of all, extremely excited to be part of the HP family now. Um, Quick history and that we've been around for about 11 years. We've had about 9000 plus customers and they all benefit from essentially the same technology that we invented 11 years ago. First and foremost, one of the use cases has been continuous data protection. So were built on the CdP platform, which means extremely low RTO S and R P O S for recovery. I'll give you example there um, United Airlines is an application that cost them $1 million dollars for every hour that they're down. They use traditional approaches. That would be a lot of loss with Zito, we have that down two seconds of loss in case and the application goes down. So that's kind of core and fundamental to our plaque. The second uh critical use case that for us has been simplicity. A lot of customers have said we make the difficult, simple. So DRS is a complex uh process. Um, give you an example there. Hcea Healthcare Consolidated four different disaster recovery platforms into a single platform in Puerto and saved about $10 million dollars a year. So it's making that operations of having disaster recovery process is much simpler. Um the third kind of critical use case for us as uh, the environment has evolved as the landscape has involved has been around hybrid cloud. So being able to take customers to the platforms that they want to go to that's critical for us And for our customers an example, there is Kingston technology's so Kingston tried some competitive products to move to Azure, it would take them about 24 hours to recover 30 VMS or so with zero technology. They will get about all their 1000 VMS up in Azure instantaneously. So these are three use cases that were foundational. Built. Built the company in the tech. >>Nice. Thank you. Thank you for that. So simple works well these days, especially with all this complexity we have to deal with. Can we get into the secret sauce a little bit. I mean CdP has been around forever. What do you guys do that? That's different. Maybe you can talk about that. Sure. >>Um it's cdp based, I think we've perfected the technology. It's less about being able to just copy the data. It's more about what you do when things go bump. We've made it simpler with driven economies of scale lower and being platform agnostic. We've really brought that up across to whatever platforms once upon a time it was moving from physical to virtual or even across different virtualization platforms and then being able to move across to whatever cloud platform customer may want or or back >>to cbP continuous data protection by the way for the audience that may not know that go ahead. And >>one of the additional points that I want to add to the box comment over here is the the basics of platform independence is what really drew uh hp technologists into the technology because you know, one of the things we have many, we have the high end platform with the H B electra nine Kv of the electro six kids the midrange platform. Then we have a bunch of file and object offerings on the side. What zero does it University universally applies to all those technologies and along with, you know, as you pair them up with our computer offerings to offer a full stack but now the stack is disaster recovery capable. Natively with the integration of certo, you know, one of the things that, you know, Deepak talked about about the as your migrations that a lot of the customers are talking about cloud is also coming up as a D our use case for a lot of our customers, customers, you know, you know, as we went through thousands of customers interviews one of the, one of the key things that came back was investing in a D our data center which is just waiting there for a disaster to happen. It's a very expensive insurance policy. So absurd. Oh, through its native capabilities allows customers to do is to just use public cloud as a D our target and and as a service, it just takes care of all the format conversions and recoveries and although that's completely automated inside the platform and and we feel that, you know, when you combine this either at the high end of data center storage offering or the middle age offering with this replication, D. R. And ransomware protection built into the same package, working under the same hood, it just simplifies and streamlines the customers deployment. >>Come here a couple of things. So first of all historically, if you wanted to recover to appoint within let's say, you know, 10 seconds, five seconds you have to pay up. Big time. Number one. Number two is you couldn't test your D. R. It was too risky. So people just had it in, they had a checkbox on compliance but they actually couldn't really test it because they were afraid they were going to lose data. So it sounds like you're solving both of those problems or >>or you know we remember the D. R. Test where it was a weekend. It was an event right? It was the event and at the end of july that the entire I. T. Organizing honey >>it's not gonna be home this weekend. Exactly what >>we've changed. That is a click of a button. You can D. R. Test today if you want to you can have disaster recovery still running. You can D. R. Test in Azure bring up your environment an isolated network bubble, make sure everything's running and bring it and bring it down. The interesting thing is the technology was invented back when our fear in the industry was losing a data center was losing power was catastrophic, natural disasters. But the technology has lent itself very well to the new threats which which are very much around ransomware as you mentioned because it's a type of disaster. Somebody's going after your data. Physical servers are still around but you still need to go back to a point in time and you need to do that very quickly. So the technology has really just found itself uh appealing to new challenges. >>If a customer asks you can I really eliminate cyber attacks, where should I put my my if I had 100 bucks to spend. Should I spend it on you know layers and defense should I spend it on recovery. Both, what would you tell them? >>I think it's a balanced answer. I think prevention is 100% impossible. Uh It's really I'd say spend it in in thirds. You want to spend a third of it and and prevention a third of it maybe in detection and then a third of it in uh recovery. So it's really that balancing act that means you can't leave the front door open but then have a lot of recovery techniques invested in. It has to be it has to be a balance and it's also not a matter of if it's a matter of when so we invest in all three areas. Hopefully two of them will work to your advantage. >>You dave you you should always protect your perimeter. I mean that that goes without saying but then as you invest in other aspects of the business, as Deepak mentioned, recovery needs to be fast and quick recovery whether from your recovering from a backup disaster. Are you covering from a data center disaster a corrupted file or from a ransomware attack. A couple of things that zero really stitches together like journal based recovery has been allowed for a while but making journal based recovery platform independent in a seamless fashion with the click of a button within five seconds go back to where your situation was. That gives you the peace of mind that even if the perimeter was breached, you're still protected, you know, five minutes into the problem And, and that's the peace of mind, which along with data protection as a service, disaster recovery as a service and now integrating this, you know, recovery from ransomware along with it in a very simple, easy to consume package is what drew us into the >>more you can do this you said on the use the cloud as a target. I could use the cloud as an air gap if I wanted to. It sounds like it's cloud Native, correct? Just wrap your stack in kubernetes and shove it in the cloud and have a host and say we're cloud to No, really I'm serious. So >>absolutely, we we looked at that approach and that that's where the challenge comes in, Right? So I give you the example of Kingston technology just doesn't scale, it's not fast enough. What we did was developed a platform for cloud Native. We consume cloud services where necessary in order to provide that scalability. So one example in Azure is being able to use scale set. So think about a scenario where you just declare a disaster, you've got 1000 VMS to move over, we can spin up the workers that need to do the work to get 1000 VMS spin them down. So you're up and running instantaneously and that involves using cloud Native uh tools and technologies, >>can we stay on that for a minute, So take take us through an example of what life was like would be like without zero trying to recover and what it's like with Puerto resources, complexity time maybe you could sort of paint a picture. Sure. >>Let me, I'll actually use an example from a customer 10 Kata. They uh develop defensive fabrics, especially fabric. So think about firefighters, think about our men and women abroad that need protective clothing that developed the fibers behave. They were hit by ransomware by crypto locker. That this was before zero. Unfortunately it took they took about a two week uh data loss. It took them weeks to recover that environment, bring it back up and the confidence was pretty low. They invested in, they looked at our technology, they invested in the technology and then they were hit with a different variant of crypto locker immediately. The the IT administrators and the ITS folks there were relieved right, they had a sense of confidence to say yes we can recover. And the second time around they had data loss of about 10 seconds, they could recover within a few minutes. So that's the before and after picture giving customers that confidence to say yep, a breach happened, we tried our best but now it's up to recovery and I can recover without having to dig tapes out from some vault and hopefully have a good copy of data sitting there and then try that over and over again and there's a tolerance right before a time before which business will not be able to sustain itself. So what we want to do is minimize that for businesses so that they can recover as quickly as possible with as little data loss as possible. >>Thank you for that. So, Omar, there's a bigger sort of cyber recovery agenda that you have as part of, of green lake, I'm sure. What, what should we expect, what's next? Where do you want to take this? >>So uh excellent question point in the future day. So one of the things that you helped us, uh you know, unveil uh in May was the data services. Cloud console. Data services. Cloud console was the first uh sort of delivery as we took the storage business as it is and start to transform into more of a cloud native business. We introduced electra uh which is the cloud native hardware with the customers buy for persistent storage within their data center. But then data services, cloud console truly cemented that cloud operational model. Uh We separated the management from, from the devices itself and sort of lifted it up as a sas service into the public, public cloud. So now what you're gonna see is, you know, more and more data and data management services come up on the data services. Cloud console and and zero is going to be one of the first ones. Cloud physics was another one that we we talked about, but zero is the is the true data management service that is going to come up on data services, cloud console as part of the Green Lake services agenda that that HP has in the customer's environ and then you're gonna see compliance as a service. You're going to see data protection as a service. You're gonna see disaster recovery as a service. But the beautiful thing about it is, is choice with simplicity as these services get loaded up on data services, clown console. All our customers instantly get it. There's nothing to install, there's nothing to troubleshoot uh, there's nothing to size. All those capabilities are available on the console, customers go in and just start consuming Xarelto capabilities from a management control plane, Disaster recovery control plan are going to be available on the data services, cloud console, automatically detecting electro systems, rian Bear systems, container based systems, whichever our customers have deployed and from there is just a flip of a button. Another way to look at it is it sort of gives you that slider that you have data protection or back up on one side, you've got disaster recovery on one side, you've got ransomware protection on on the extreme right side, you can just move a slider across and choose the service level that you want without worrying about best practices, installation, application integration. All of that just takes control from the data services, cloud concepts. >>Great, great summary because historically you would have to build that right now. You can buy it as a service. You can programmatically, you know, deploy it and that's a game changer. Have to throw it over the fence to some folks. That's okay. Now, you know, make it make it work and then they change the code and you come back a lot of finger pointing. It's now it's your responsibility. >>Absolutely. Absolutely. We're excited to provide Zito continue provides the desert of customers but also integrate with the Green Green Lake platform and let the rest of Green Lake customers experience some of the sort of technology and really make that available as a service. >>That's great. This is a huge challenge for customers. I mean they do, I pay their ransom. Do not pay the ransom. If I pay the ransom the FBI is going to come after me. But if I don't pay the ransom, I'm not gonna get the crypto key. So solutions like this are critical. You certainly see the president pushing for that. The United States government said, hey, we got to do a better job. Good job guys, Thanks for for sharing your story in the cube and congratulations. Thank >>you. Thank you David. >>All right. And thank you for watching everybody. Uh this is the, I want to tell you that everything that you're seeing today as part of the Green Lake announcement is going to be available on demand as part of the HP discover more. So you got to check that out. Thank you. You're watching the cube. >>Mhm mm.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by RedHat, a CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome back to Kubecon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer, and happy to welcome back to the program, was on the keynote stage earlier at the conference, Derek Collison is the founder and CEO of Synadia. >> Yes, welcome. >> Stu: Showing the logo, thanks so much for joining us, Derek. >> Oh, thank you, I really appreciate it, it's been a while. >> Yeah, it has, so you know, we've known you for many years, had you on the program, you look at us, you've got one of those VIP logos 'cause you've been on the show a few times, and you've seen a couple of these waves. Latest thing, of course, you're talking a lot about NATS, but of course Cloud Foundry you built that, so you've seen a lot of these waves, but I want to start with something you said that I thought was really thought-provoking and interesting. A lot of people, we talk about the Cloud economy, talk about the data economy... You talk about the connective economy, so, explain to our audience a little bit what that means. >> So, the general gist of it is, hey, where's the innovation and where's the value coming out of information technology, IT, infrastructure and things like that, and for a long time, we were swept up in the Cloud economy, which was how you move from CapEx into OpEx, and things like that, and then of course it was all about data. And it still is about data, but if you notice, it's not the data moving to where you're trying to process things, now it's all of a sudden being distributed, and so you take that, and you take MicroServices, and you take all these things, and at least from my perspective, I see the value driving out of these systems now is in, how are they connected? How are you observing them, how are you securing them and trusting them? And I believe that's where the value in the next wave of innovation's going to come from. >> Yeah, it's funny, I hear sometimes we talk about the pendulum of technology, and I look in the ten years we've been doing this, really we're talking about the journey along the distributed architecture we've been trying to build, and it's not moving back and forth, but it's kind of... >> Derek: Circling. >> It's kind of circling, and some of the themes are repeating, but it's growing that along the way, so, give us NATS and messaging, how this plays into helping to solve that communication issue, it's the kind of thing, we read about in the Google papers as to, global distributed architectures. >> Yeah, so, the general gist is that NATS was built to power Cloud Foundry, right, and that was the deployment mechanism for applications and such like that. And NATS, just like a lot of the other technologies, was built for an itch I needed to scratch. And it was a silo technology. So about two years ago, we had the opportunity to actually think about if we wanted to make a business out of NATS, right? And any time you say open source and commercial entity, there's challenges, and I don't think anyone has all of the answers. But the answer we came up with internally as a team was, we need to build something that's value is greater than the sum of its parts. I personally, again, and a lot of people won't agree with me and that's okay, I don't believe in the open core model. I don't believe in the fact that you make certain enterprise features and certain open source features. However, what I do believe is that if we could take a communication technology and make it a true utility, like the global cellular now, or the Internet, and connect everything, we'd have these opportunities that no one could foresee, for example, with the web, or even with the global cellular network and what people think is about to happen with the 5G. So we took NATS, which is a very mature technology, made it multi-tinted, made it very, very forward-looking secure, made it run in any Cloud, Edge, IoT, with the hope that we could encourage people to connect everything, start isolated, but have the ability to say, hey, we want to start sharing data securely in an audited way, that it's drop-dead simple to do. It's not a, let's plan a six-month project to integrate your systems with these systems and things like that, and so that's the gist of what we're trying to do, and we believe that running this thing as a server as such that it's a utility, it's not just something for you or for you or for me, it's that we're all using the same thing and we're all connected if we want to be, we think there's value there. >> Derek, maybe let's go in a little bit on NATS, and the service you're running too, but maybe educate us a little bit on the landscape here. We've already talked about IoT, Cloud data, VAP messaging, and I think people understand, to a certain extent, what a messaging system is, sometimes it gets conflated with a streaming system, maybe you could talk about what NATS does really well, we've talked about security, we've talked about a few other things, you've teased already here, but how should we be thinking about NATS? >> Well, I think, outside of NATS, just in general, any type of way of communications, we need to think secure by default, right? We can't do what happened with the Internet, where we go, ooh, it'd be really nice to do these kind of things, but we need security. And we have to wait, as a group of excited individuals, probably 15 years to get that, we can't do that in this generation with IoT and things. But when you look at NATS, or any technology, there's essentially two types of patterns that anybody wants to support. A service-based pattern, where I ask you a question, you give me an answer, ninety-plus percent of distributed systems today, that's their main architectural pattern. So I'm coordinating and asking a lot of questions of these services, micro-services, you know, has become popular. Streaming is now becoming popular with things like Kafka and stuff like that, it's been around for a while, but that's the second, other pattern. So it's like, I'm emitting events or data streams or things like that, and they could be persisted or not, but essentially if you want to make it simple, it's services and streams, and for us, we wanted technology that did equally well in both of them, right, you didn't have to pick one technology for one pattern and another one for a different one. >> All right, let's talk a little bit about your business. So you talked a little bit about kind of the business model, so explain the business model, what you're doing, how that actually goes together? >> Yeah, and for the viewers, this is our take on it, which means it's advice, you get what you pay for, it's free, type of stuff, but, you know... Been around the block a little bit. So, when we started out, what we didn't want to do is ignore the old models. I don't think a long-term business model is the old models, meaning recurring support, consulting, NRE work type of stuff, but I've also seen startups that ignore that and say, "no, we're not going to do that at all." And I did a little bit of that with my prior company, so we embrace that, but we know long-term that's not going to be it. So we deploy a global network, we have a global network, it's available with a single URL, secure by default, runs in every Cloud, every major GO, and more importantly, you can extend it on your own, on your own servers, with the RN off to do that. And we believe that Saas model, that utility model where, again, its value is greater than the sum of its parts, allows us to keep everything open-source, but there's a value in being connected to this network. Multi-Cloud, Cloud to Edge, all that kind of stuff. And what we want is we want customers to slowly transition to that. I've been telling people there's basic cable, which is like, just the dial tone, then there's going to be premium channels on that, that you can pay for, like storage, DR, secrets, zero-trust mechanisms, anomaly detection around communication patterns. People might opt in and say, "ooh, we want to pay for those things 'cause they're interesting to us." And then the last piece of that pie is, there may be people who are running against the global utility, running their own servers, and they go, "that service right there inside of that system, we love it, we want it on premise, can we actually license it from you?" So it's a combination of softwares and service, license revenue, and recurring support. >> Okay, and so, are you enabling partners to deliver those services, is that Synadia does that themselves, where do those premium services come from? >> So, we're going to seed the market, but yeah, we want it to be an open marketplace, and what we will provide is things like billing and such like that, almost, not exactly, but almost like the app store, the Apple app store, where someone who just wants to write a simple service, and if people like it, they don't have to do much, they just have it run and it's receiving stuff and they just get paid. So we do think that's a federated model. Believe it or not, we also feel running the network on a global scale is also federated. So we've designed it such that we don't have to be the only operators. Matter of fact, if we're successful, we're the smallest operator going forward. But, the system is always interconnected, right, so if John's trying to connect in and he's connecting to a Google server, I can connect to that server also, even though Synadia might have actually granted me the rights to access the system. And so we're working on that, we're thinking about that, but Cloud providers are really good at running infrastructure and running services on that infrastructure. We want to embrace that, we just want to make sure that any user of the system, it's like a SIM card that's unlocked, essentially, right? You could go to any provider that you want and it works, that's what we want to make sure we set up for. >> Right, it seems like a great example of this next wave of companies that's being built on top of the existing Cloud infrastructure. You don't have to be a hoster yourself, you could take advantage of and partner with all the other infrastructure providers and interconnect them in several different ways. Maybe, Derek, could you give us an example of an app, what an app might look like that's globally distributed and what kind of messages would be being passed back and forth? >> Sure, so, we're about to release something on Synadia where we truly believe, at the base of everything, it's just sending messages. And so, most people think of NATS as a communication mechanism, and it is, but when we say storage or state storage, they kind of say, "oh, NATS doesn't do that." But we can send a message to a KV service that says KV.set, and I could send a message that says KV get and get it back. Now, what's interesting is, we can make that zero trust, meaning, it leaves your app totally encrypted, so none of our servers, none of Google, Amazon, or Azure's servers, actually even understand what the heck it is, but what's interesting is, you could connect to any of our servers worldwide, or even run your own servers, and connect to those, and it works, all the time. We have another one that's just a usage server, meaning it tells you how much usage you've been racking up, let's say, over the month, kind of like a cell bill. And the way we built it was, there's multiple servers that are running, collecting this data, totally independent, there's no consensus. Everyone has the same subject, NGS.usage, you send a request saying, "what's my usage for the last hour?" Yet the backend service, guaranteed secure, trusted, it receives a request that it knows it's John, knows it's Stu, knows it's Derek, and so it can say, "oh, I'm trying to get John's usage, I'm trying to get Stu's usage." Yet the user experience is, everyone does the same thing, which we think is extremely powerful. And you don't have to do anything unnatural to get that with a system like NATS, right, where we tried to put security first and really think hard about what it meant, and that wasn't fun, it wasn't easy, but we think it's important. >> Yeah. So, Derek, I want to kind of step up-level a second here, 'cause you've got some great viewpoints on things, so, there's some people that look at a show like this or look at the industry and say, "Ah, there's all this hype around multi-Cloud, but there's a lot of challenges." Does it become least common denominator? How do these things work together? My definition that I've been saying for a while, I'll use a phrase you've used a couple of times. If, for multi-Cloud to be real, the value that I get out of it has to be greater than the sum of its parts. You live through the PaaS and the post-PaaS era, you've done a number of environments here, so where are we today, where do we need to go as an industry, as a whole, to reach that value statement that we talk about? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Even from day one in Cloud Foundry, I've believed in multi-Cloud, but I've watched how the markets have actually reacted and what they are doing, and the first wave in my perspective was, posturing for better pricing. To be honest with you, it was Netflix go, "hey we're going to move to Google unless you give us a better price." And I've seen that time and time again. Where it becomes real, though, is, when there's a class of service in a given Cloud provider, that is extremely attractive. Amazon, just in terms of the breadth, Azure a lot for some of the big data stuff, Google a lot for some of the AI stuff they have. Where an organization has a legitimate use to say "we really need best of breed in AI," best of breed in, let's say, big data, and they want to run an app in Azure and an app in Google, and that's kind of the realest situation I've seen. The notion of running something that's truly oblivious and can run anywhere, it's possible, but your lowest common denominators compute and simple storage, and a lot of times, that's not actually distinguishing. So I still see a lot of pricing pressure, you know, posturing, around multi-Cloud, just as a negotiation tactic. Where I see it being real is, this class of app, we want to run it in this Cloud provider to access these services that are differentiating. >> Derek, you have been around for a few generations of Stack wars, PaaS wars, I don't know that they need a name. Any advice to application architects and technologists who are choosing technologies here? I mean, here at this conference, Kubernetes is kind of a common assumption for a lot of what people are doing, not everybody, but there's a lot of other parts that plug into it, and a lot of other decisions to be made about architectures, and about, everything from messaging, to security, to networking, to storage, and I can go on and on and on and on. So, I mean how... Again, you've seen this happen a couple times, people having to pick and make choices, worried about lock-in, whatever they're worried about, I don't know. What are your thoughts on what's the, what are the right ways to do this so you actually succeed? >> Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And yeah, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth quite a bit, but I think for the viewers, I can simplify it, at least from my perspective. It goes between choice and simplicity. So if you look in even the PaaS wars versus IaS versus all that stuff, PaaS was a swing towards simplicity, get stuff done, you know what I mean? And then there was like, "oh, I can get stuff done, but I don't have enough choice." So we saw this swing back, and I think Kubernetes hit at the absolute perfect time to take advantage of, "hey, we need choice at these base layers," right? And the way Kubernetes was architected was to give you that full choice. So if a startup's coming along and saying, okay, given the fact that the pendulum's over here, knowing it's going to be swinging back, and at least in my opinion, we're swinging back for simplicity, concentrate on, how do you simplify what people are struggling with today? So at this conference, there's a tremendous amount of people, you can get a lot of insight into what's going on, ask 'em where it hurts, you know what I mean? What are you struggling with? How long have you been struggling with it? And then solve those problems, especially when the pendulum you know is starting to swing back around. Hey, can we do this in a more simplified way, why does it have to be so hard? Those are the big opportunities right now. But again, it'll swing this way, and it'll swing back, eventually it'll get to the middle, and then we'll pick a whole other class of problems to, you know, swing back and forth from. >> Well, you know, it actually, it's not surprising to me that you're actually echoing a comment that Steve Harrod made on the program yesterday, saying when he goes and talks to all the companies here, it's, tell me how you make my life better as a company, and that's what we need to focus on. That wave toward simplicity absolutely is something we see, it's something we've been driving toward from Kubernetes, but an area that you're spending some time in talking about at the keynote, Edge computing. And absolutely, we need simplicity for that to be able to come there. What are you seeing in the Edge space, what's real, customers you're talking to, give us a little bit of forward-looking as where you see that whole space going. >> Yeah, so, I mean, for me, Edge and IoT, you can define it a lot of different ways, but even for enterprise companies that are here, it's, hey, do you deploy a piece of software out into the field, or a hardware/software combination? So, Bose headsets, Peloton bikes, whatever, that's kind of an industrial IoT type of thing. I see a lot of people wanting to drag what they think works in Cloud out to the Edge. Kubernetes works here, we're going to drag it out here. We're just going to slim it up a little bit and package it. I don't know if that's the right answer. What I think we need to think about is how do we get data and compute, compute meaning processing of that data, securely in a trusted fashion out to the Edge, however that works? It doesn't necessarily mean we have to have all the same pieces, but you have to say, I want to push an update and I want it to go over the air so to speak to the Edge, I want to be able to trust that it's doing the right thing. And so I think there's a massive amount of opportunity around that, and in how do you move all those pieces around. And what we're trying to do at Synadia is encompassing both, right? So we started with the secure by default, trusting in the beginning, and then if we say, hey, it's just messages, and in the keynote, I talked a little bit about our excitement around web assembly. But where we get excited about it is, we give you a drop-dead easy system and say, I want to digitally sign that web assembly for use in this certain situation at the Edge. And then that shovels it out there, and the system looks at it, verifies that it was signed by John, and says, yep, I can run this now. And so we're looking very heavily at those types of opportunities. We don't care how the things are deployed per se, but I would say that I think as you get further out, I think you're going to see more common denominators around web assembly, secure and signed web assemblies, than on how we actually deploy them. So you're going to see lighter weight things, not to say that Kubernetes might not have relevance out there, but I don't think it's needed to get to where we want. We need that trust factor, ubiquitous, communications to really kind of light that field up. The other one at least that we feel we need to meet the customer where they're at, is most of the IoT type devices are MQTT. And so we talked also that in Q1, we're going to allow native MQTT apps to connect directly into a NATS server and the NGS ecosystem, meaning you get the best of both worlds as well. Then an Edge router's running a NATS server, could be a raspberry pie, thousands of devices all connecting in, we think that connectivity and trust will light up a lot of opportunities. >> All right, well, Derek, always a pleasure to catch up with you, thanks so much for the updates. >> Thank you guys, I really appreciate it. >> All right. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here at Kubecon CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching theCUBE.