(gentle music) >> Narrator: "TheCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to day four of "theCUBE's" coverage of MWC '23. We're here live at the Fira in Barcelona. Wall-to-wall coverage, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Really, the whole week we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco network, the new opportunities in telco. We're really excited to have AT&T and Snowflake here. Dave Whittington is the AVP, at the Chief Data Office at AT&T. Roddy Tranum is the Assistant Vice President, for Channel Performance Data and Tools at AT&T. And Phil Kippen, the Global Head Of Industry-Telecom at Snowflake, Snowflake's new telecom business. Snowflake just announced earnings last night. Typical Scarpelli, they beat earnings, very conservative guidance, stocks down today, but we like Snowflake long term, they're on that path to 10 billion. Guys, welcome to "theCUBE." Thanks so much >> Phil: Thank you. >> for coming on. >> Dave and Roddy: Thanks Dave. >> Dave, let's start with you. The data culture inside of telco, We've had this, we've been talking all week about this monolithic system. Super reliable. You guys did a great job during the pandemic. Everything shifting to landlines. We didn't even notice, you guys didn't miss a beat. Saved us. But the data culture's changing inside telco. Explain that. >> Well, absolutely. So, first of all IoT and edge processing is bringing forth new and exciting opportunities all the time. So, we're bridging the world between a lot of the OSS stuff that we can do with edge processing. But bringing that back, and now we're talking about working, and I would say traditionally, we talk data warehouse. Data warehouse and big data are now becoming a single mesh, all right? And the use cases and the way you can use those, especially I'm taking that edge data and bringing it back over, now I'm running AI and ML models on it, and I'm pushing back to the edge, and I'm combining that with my relational data. So that mesh there is making all the difference. We're getting new use cases that we can do with that. And it's just, and the volume of data is immense. >> Now, I love ChatGPT, but I'm hoping your data models are more accurate than ChatGPT. I never know. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's really bad. But enterprise, you got to be clean with your AI, don't you? >> Not only you have to be clean, you have to monitor it for bias and be ethical about it. We're really good about that. First of all with AT&T, our brand is Platinum. We take care of that. So, we may not be as cutting-edge risk takers as others, but when we go to market with an AI or an ML or a product, it's solid. >> Well hey, as telcos go, you guys are leaning into the Cloud. So I mean, that's a good starting point. Roddy, explain your role. You got an interesting title, Channel Performance Data and Tools, what's that all about? >> So literally anything with our consumer, retail, concenters' channels, all of our channels, from a data perspective and metrics perspective, what it takes to run reps, agents, all the way to leadership levels, scorecards, how you rank in the business, how you're driving the business, from sales, service, customer experience, all that data infrastructure with our great partners on the CDO side, as well as Snowflake, that comes from my team. >> And that's traditionally been done in a, I don't mean the pejorative, but we're talking about legacy, monolithic, sort of data warehouse technologies. >> Absolutely. >> We have a love-hate relationship with them. It's what we had. It's what we used, right? And now that's evolving. And you guys are leaning into the Cloud. >> Dramatic evolution. And what Snowflake's enabled for us is impeccable. We've talked about having, people have dreamed of one data warehouse for the longest time and everything in one system. Really, this is the only way that becomes a reality. The more you get in Snowflake, we can have golden source data, and instead of duplicating that 50 times across AT&T, it's in one place, we just share it, everybody leverages it, and now it's not duplicated, and the process efficiency is just incredible. >> But it really hinges on that separation of storage and compute. And we talk about the monolithic warehouse, and one of the nightmares I've lived with, is having a monolithic warehouse. And let's just go with some of my primary, traditional customers, sales, marketing and finance. They are leveraging BSS OSS data all the time. For me to coordinate a deployment, I have to make sure that each one of these units can take an outage, if it's going to be a long deployment. With the separation of storage, compute, they own their own compute cluster. So I can move faster for these people. 'Cause if finance, I can implement his code without impacting finance or marketing. This brings in CI/CD to more reality. It brings us faster to market with more features. So if he wants to implement a new comp plan for the field reps, or we're reacting to the marketplace, where one of our competitors has done something, we can do that in days, versus waiting weeks or months. >> And we've reported on this a lot. This is the brilliance of Snowflake's founders, that whole separation >> Yep. >> from compute and data. I like Dave, that you're starting with sort of the business flexibility, 'cause there's a cost element of this too. You can dial down, you can turn off compute, and then of course the whole world said, "Hey, that's a good idea." And a VC started throwing money at Amazon, but Redshift said, "Oh, we can do that too, sort of, can't turn off the compute." But I want to ask you Phil, so, >> Sure. >> it looks from my vantage point, like you're taking your Data Cloud message which was originally separate compute from storage simplification, now data sharing, automated governance, security, ultimately the marketplace. >> Phil: Right. >> Taking that same model, break down the silos into telecom, right? It's that same, >> Mm-hmm. >> sorry to use the term playbook, Frank Slootman tells me he doesn't use playbooks, but he's not a pattern matcher, but he's a situational CEO, he says. But the situation in telco calls for that type of strategy. So explain what you guys are doing in telco. >> I think there's, so, what we're launching, we launched last week, and it really was three components, right? So we had our platform as you mentioned, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> and that platform is being utilized by a number of different companies today. We also are adding, for telecom very specifically, we're adding capabilities in marketplace, so that service providers can not only use some of the data and apps that are in marketplace, but as well service providers can go and sell applications or sell data that they had built. And then as well, we're adding our ecosystem, it's telecom-specific. So, we're bringing partners in, technology partners, and consulting and services partners, that are very much focused on telecoms and what they do internally, but also helping them monetize new services. >> Okay, so it's not just sort of generic Snowflake into telco? You have specific value there. >> We're purposing the platform specifically for- >> Are you a telco guy? >> I am. You are, okay. >> Total telco guy absolutely. >> So there you go. You see that Snowflake is actually an interesting organizational structure, 'cause you're going after verticals, which is kind of rare for a company of your sort of inventory, I'll say, >> Absolutely. >> I don't mean that as a negative. (Dave laughs) So Dave, take us through the data journey at AT&T. It's a long history. You don't have to go back to the 1800s, but- (Dave laughs) >> Thank you for pointing out, we're a 149-year-old company. So, Jesse James was one of the original customers, (Dave laughs) and we have no longer got his data. So, I'll go back. I've been 17 years singular AT&T, and I've watched it through the whole journey of, where the monolithics were growing, when the consolidation of small, wireless carriers, and we went through that boom. And then we've gone through mergers and acquisitions. But, Hadoop came out, and it was going to solve all world hunger. And we had all the aspects of, we're going to monetize and do AI and ML, and some of the things we learned with Hadoop was, we had this monolithic warehouse, we had this file-based-structured Hadoop, but we really didn't know how to bring this all together. And we were bringing items over to the relational, and we were taking the relational and bringing it over to the warehouse, and trying to, and it was a struggle. Let's just go there. And I don't think we were the only company to struggle with that, but we learned a lot. And so now as tech is finally emerging, with the cloud, companies like Snowflake, and others that can handle that, where we can create, we were discussing earlier, but it becomes more of a conducive mesh that's interoperable. So now we're able to simplify that environment. And the cloud is a big thing on that. 'Cause you could not do this on-prem with on-prem technologies. It would be just too cost prohibitive, and too heavy of lifting, going back and forth, and managing the data. The simplicity the cloud brings with a smaller set of tools, and I'll say in the data space specifically, really allows us, maybe not a single instance of data for all use cases, but a greatly reduced ecosystem. And when you simplify your ecosystem, you simplify speed to market and data management. >> So I'm going to ask you, I know it's kind of internal organizational plumbing, but it'll inform my next question. So, Dave, you're with the Chief Data Office, and Roddy, you're kind of, you all serve in the business, but you're really serving the, you're closer to those guys, they're banging on your door for- >> Absolutely. I try to keep the 130,000 users who may or may not have issues sometimes with our data and metrics, away from Dave. And he just gets a call from me. >> And he only calls when he has a problem. He's never wished me happy birthday. (Dave and Phil laugh) >> So the reason I asked that is because, you describe Dave, some of the Hadoop days, and again love-hate with that, but we had hyper-specialized roles. We still do. You've got data engineers, data scientists, data analysts, and you've got this sort of this pipeline, and it had to be this sequential pipeline. I know Snowflake and others have come to simplify that. My question to you is, how is that those roles, how are those roles changing? How is data getting closer to the business? Everybody talks about democratizing business. Are you doing that? What's a real use example? >> From our perspective, those roles, a lot of those roles on my team for years, because we're all about efficiency, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> we cut across those areas, and always have cut across those areas. So now we're into a space where things have been simplified, data processes and copying, we've gone from 40 data processes down to five steps now. We've gone from five steps to one step. We've gone from days, now take hours, hours to minutes, minutes to seconds. Literally we're seeing that time in and time out with Snowflake. So these resources that have spent all their time on data engineering and moving data around, are now freed up more on what they have skills for and always have, the data analytics area of the business, and driving the business forward, and new metrics and new analysis. That's some of the great operational value that we've seen here. As this simplification happens, it frees up brain power. >> So, you're pumping data from the OSS, the BSS, the OKRs everywhere >> Everywhere. >> into Snowflake? >> Scheduling systems, you name it. If you can think of what drives our retail and centers and online, all that data, scheduling system, chat data, call center data, call detail data, all of that enters into this common infrastructure to manage the business on a day in and day out basis. >> How are the roles and the skill sets changing? 'Cause you're doing a lot less ETL, you're doing a lot less moving of data around. There were guys that were probably really good at that. I used to joke in the, when I was in the storage world, like if your job is bandaging lungs, you need to look for a new job, right? So, and they did and people move on. So, are you able to sort of redeploy those assets, and those people, those human resources? >> These folks are highly skilled. And we were talking about earlier, SQL hasn't gone away. Relational databases are not going away. And that's one thing that's made this migration excellent, they're just transitioning their skills. Experts in legacy systems are now rapidly becoming experts on the Snowflake side. And it has not been that hard a transition. There are certainly nuances, things that don't operate as well in the cloud environment that we have to learn and optimize. But we're making that transition. >> Dave: So just, >> Please. >> within the Chief Data Office we have a couple of missions, and Roddy is a great partner and an example of how it works. We try to bring the data for democratization, so that we have one interface, now hopefully know we just have a logical connection back to these Snowflake instances that we connect. But we're providing that governance and cleansing, and if there's a business rule at the enterprise level, we provide it. But the goal at CDO is to make sure that business units like Roddy or marketing or finance, that they can come to a platform that's reliable, robust, and self-service. I don't want to be in his way. So I feel like I'm providing a sub-level of platform, that he can come to and anybody can come to, and utilize, that they're not having to go back and undo what's in Salesforce, or ServiceNow, or in our billers. So, I'm sort of that layer. And then making sure that that ecosystem is robust enough for him to use. >> And that self-service infrastructure is predominantly through the Azure Cloud, correct? >> Dave: Absolutely. >> And you work on other clouds, but it's predominantly through Azure? >> We're predominantly in Azure, yeah. >> Dave: That's the first-party citizen? >> Yeah. >> Okay, I like to think in terms sometimes of data products, and I know you've mentioned upfront, you're Gold standard or Platinum standard, you're very careful about personal information. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So you're not trying to sell, I'm an AT&T customer, you're not trying to sell my data, and make money off of my data. So the value prop and the business case for Snowflake is it's simpler. You do things faster, you're in the cloud, lower cost, et cetera. But I presume you're also in the business, AT&T, of making offers and creating packages for customers. I look at those as data products, 'cause it's not a, I mean, yeah, there's a physical phone, but there's data products behind it. So- >> It ultimately is, but not everybody always sees it that way. Data reporting often can be an afterthought. And we're making it more on the forefront now. >> Yeah, so I like to think in terms of data products, I mean even if the financial services business, it's a data business. So, if we can think about that sort of metaphor, do you see yourselves as data product builders? Do you have that, do you think about building products in that regard? >> Within the Chief Data Office, we have a data product team, >> Mm-hmm. >> and by the way, I wouldn't be disingenuous if I said, oh, we're very mature in this, but no, it's where we're going, and it's somewhat of a journey, but I've got a peer, and their whole job is to go from, especially as we migrate from cloud, if Roddy or some other group was using tables three, four and five and joining them together, it's like, "Well look, this is an offer for data product, so let's combine these and put it up in the cloud, and here's the offer data set product, or here's the opportunity data product," and it's a journey. We're on the way, but we have dedicated staff and time to do this. >> I think one of the hardest parts about that is the organizational aspects of it. Like who owns the data now, right? It used to be owned by the techies, and increasingly the business lines want to have access, you're providing self-service. So there's a discussion about, "Okay, what is a data product? Who's responsible for that data product? Is it in my P&L or your P&L? Somebody's got to sign up for that number." So, it sounds like those discussions are taking place. >> They are. And, we feel like we're more the, and CDO at least, we feel more, we're like the guardians, and the shepherds, but not the owners. I mean, we have a role in it all, but he owns his metrics. >> Yeah, and even from our perspective, we see ourselves as an enabler of making whatever AT&T wants to make happen in terms of the key products and officers' trade-in offers, trade-in programs, all that requires this data infrastructure, and managing reps and agents, and what they do from a channel performance perspective. We still ourselves see ourselves as key enablers of that. And we've got to be flexible, and respond quickly to the business. >> I always had empathy for the data engineer, and he or she had to service all these different lines of business with no business context. >> Yeah. >> Like the business knows good data from bad data, and then they just pound that poor individual, and they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my best. It's just ones and zeros to me." So, it sounds like that's, you're on that path. >> Yeah absolutely, and I think, we do have refined, getting more and more refined owners of, since Snowflake enables these golden source data, everybody sees me and my organization, channel performance data, go to Roddy's team, we have a great team, and we go to Dave in terms of making it all happen from a data infrastructure perspective. So we, do have a lot more refined, "This is where you go for the golden source, this is where it is, this is who owns it. If you want to launch this product and services, and you want to manage reps with it, that's the place you-" >> It's a strong story. So Chief Data Office doesn't own the data per se, but it's your responsibility to provide the self-service infrastructure, and make sure it's governed properly, and in as automated way as possible. >> Well, yeah, absolutely. And let me tell you more, everybody talks about single version of the truth, one instance of the data, but there's context to that, that we are taking, trying to take advantage of that as we do data products is, what's the use case here? So we may have an entity of Roddy as a prospective customer, and we may have a entity of Roddy as a customer, high-value customer over here, which may have a different set of mix of data and all, but as a data product, we can then create those for those specific use cases. Still point to the same data, but build it in different constructs. One for marketing, one for sales, one for finance. By the way, that's where your data engineers are struggling. >> Yeah, yeah, of course. So how do I serve all these folks, and really have the context-common story in telco, >> Absolutely. >> or are these guys ahead of the curve a little bit? Or where would you put them? >> I think they're definitely moving a lot faster than the industry is generally. I think the enabling technologies, like for instance, having that single copy of data that everybody sees, a single pane of glass, right, that's definitely something that everybody wants to get to. Not many people are there. I think, what AT&T's doing, is most definitely a little bit further ahead than the industry generally. And I think the successes that are coming out of that, and the learning experiences are starting to generate momentum within AT&T. So I think, it's not just about the product, and having a product now that gives you a single copy of data. It's about the experiences, right? And now, how the teams are getting trained, domains like network engineering for instance. They typically haven't been a part of data discussions, because they've got a lot of data, but they're focused on the infrastructure. >> Mm. >> So, by going ahead and deploying this platform, for platform's purpose, right, and the business value, that's one thing, but also to start bringing, getting that experience, and bringing new experience in to help other groups that traditionally hadn't been data-centric, that's also a huge step ahead, right? So you need to enable those groups. >> A big complaint of course we hear at MWC from carriers is, "The over-the-top guys are killing us. They're riding on our networks, et cetera, et cetera. They have all the data, they have all the client relationships." Do you see your client relationships changing as a result of sort of your data culture evolving? >> Yes, I'm not sure I can- >> It's a loaded question, I know. >> Yeah, and then I, so, we want to start embedding as much into our network on the proprietary value that we have, so we can start getting into that OTT play, us as any other carrier, we have distinct advantages of what we can do at the edge, and we just need to start exploiting those. But you know, 'cause whether it's location or whatnot, so we got to eat into that. Historically, the network is where we make our money in, and we stack the services on top of it. It used to be *69. >> Dave: Yeah. >> If anybody remembers that. >> Dave: Yeah, of course. (Dave laughs) >> But you know, it was stacked on top of our network. Then we stack another product on top of it. It'll be in the edge where we start providing distinct values to other partners as we- >> I mean, it's a great business that you're in. I mean, if they're really good at connectivity. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And so, it sounds like it's still to be determined >> Dave: Yeah. >> where you can go with this. You have to be super careful with private and for personal information. >> Dave: Yep. >> Yeah, but the opportunities are enormous. >> There's a lot. >> Yeah, particularly at the edge, looking at, private networks are just an amazing opportunity. Factories and name it, hospital, remote hospitals, remote locations. I mean- >> Dave: Connected cars. >> Connected cars are really interesting, right? I mean, if you start communicating car to car, and actually drive that, (Dave laughs) I mean that's, now we're getting to visit Xen Fault Tolerance people. This is it. >> Dave: That's not, let's hold the traffic. >> Doesn't scare me as much as we actually learn. (all laugh) >> So how's the show been for you guys? >> Dave: Awesome. >> What're your big takeaways from- >> Tremendous experience. I mean, someone who doesn't go outside the United States much, I'm a homebody. The whole experience, the whole trip, city, Mobile World Congress, the technologies that are out here, it's been a blast. >> Anything, top two things you learned, advice you'd give to others, your colleagues out in general? >> In general, we talked a lot about technologies today, and we talked a lot about data, but I'm going to tell you what, the accelerator that you cannot change, is the relationship that we have. So when the tech and the business can work together toward a common goal, and it's a partnership, you get things done. So, I don't know how many CDOs or CIOs or CEOs are out there, but this connection is what accelerates and makes it work. >> And that is our audience Dave. I mean, it's all about that alignment. So guys, I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your story in "theCUBE." Great stuff. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, thanks everybody. Thank you for watching. I'll be right back with Dave Nicholson. Day four SiliconANGLE's coverage of MWC '23. You're watching "theCUBE." (gentle music)

>> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (ambient music) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, welcome back to Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE Live at MWC 23. Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. This is day two of four days of cube coverage but you know that, because you've already been watching yesterday and today. We're going to have a great conversation next with EnterpriseWeb and Red Hat. We've had great conversations the last day and a half about the Telco industry, the challenges, the opportunities. We're going to unpack that from this lens. Please welcome Dave Duggal, founder and CEO of EnterpriseWeb and Azhar Sayeed is here, Senior Director Solution Architecture at Red Hat. >> Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Yes. >> Thank you Lisa, >> Great being here with you. >> Dave let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of EnterpriseWeb. What kind of business is it? What's the business model? What do you guys do? >> Okay so, EnterpriseWeb is reinventing middleware, right? So the historic middleware was to build vertically integrated stacks, right? And those stacks are now such becoming the rate limiters for interoperability for so the end-to-end solutions that everybody's looking for, right? Red Hat's talking about the unified platform. You guys are talking about Supercloud, EnterpriseWeb addresses that we've built middleware based on serverless architecture, so lightweight, low latency, high performance middleware. And we're working with the world's biggest, we sell through channels and we work through partners like Red Hat Intel, Fortnet, Keysight, Tech Mahindra. So working with some of the biggest players that have recognized the value of our innovation, to deliver transformation to the Telecom industry. >> So what are you guys doing together? Is this, is this an OpenShift play? >> Is it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so we've got two projects right her on the floor at MWC throughout the various partners, where EnterpriseWeb is actually providing an application layer, sorry application middleware over Red Hat's, OpenShift and we're essentially generating operators so Red Hat operators, so that all our vendors, and, sorry vendors that we onboard into our catalog can be deployed easily through the OpenShift platform. And we allow those, those vendors to be flexibly composed into network services. So the real challenge for operators historically is that they, they have challenges onboarding the vendors. It takes a long time. Each one of them is a snowflake. They, you know, even though there's standards they don't all observe or follow the same standards. So we make it easier using models, right? For, in a model driven process to on boards or streamline that onboarding process, compose functions into services deploy those services seamlessly through Red Hat's OpenShift, and then manage the, the lifecycle, like the quality of service and the SLAs for those services. >> So Red Hat obviously has pretty prominent Telco business has for a while. Red Hat OpenStack actually is is pretty popular within the Telco business. People thought, "Oh, OpenStack, that's dead." Actually, no, it's actually doing quite well. We see it all over the place where for whatever reason people want to build their own cloud. And, and so, so what's happening in the industry because you have the traditional Telcos we heard in the keynotes that kind of typical narrative about, you know, we can't let the over the top vendors do this again. We're, we're going to be Apifi everything, we're going to monetize this time around, not just with connectivity but the, but the fact is they really don't have a developer community. >> Yes. >> Yet anyway. >> Then you have these disruptors over here that are saying "Yeah, we're going to enable ISVs." How do you see it? What's the landscape look like? Help us understand, you know, what the horses on the track are doing. >> Sure. I think what has happened, Dave, is that the conversation has moved a little bit from where they were just looking at IS infrastructure service with virtual machines and OpenStack, as you mentioned, to how do we move up the value chain and look at different applications. And therein comes the rub, right? You have applications with different requirements, IT network that have various different requirements that are there. So as you start to build those cloud platform, as you start to modernize those set of applications, you then start to look at microservices and how you build them. You need the ability to orchestrate them. So some of those problem statements have moved from not just refactoring those applications, but actually now to how do you reliably deploy, manage in a multicloud multi cluster way. So this conversation around Supercloud or this conversation around multicloud is very >> You could say Supercloud. That's okay >> (Dave Duggal and Azhar laughs) >> It's absolutely very real though. The reason why it's very real is, if you look at transformations around Telco, there are two things that are happening. One, Telco IT, they're looking at partnerships with hybrid cloud, I mean with public cloud players to build a hybrid environment. They're also building their own Telco Cloud environment for their network functions. Now, in both of those spaces, they end up operating two to three different environments themselves. Now how do you create a level of abstraction across those? How do you manage that particular infrastructure? And then how do you orchestrate all of those different workloads? Those are the type of problems that they're actually beginning to solve. So they've moved on from really just putting that virtualizing their application, putting it on OpenStack to now really seriously looking at "How do I build a service?" "How do I leverage the catalog that's available both in my private and public and build an overall service process?" >> And by the way what you just described as hybrid cloud and multicloud is, you know Supercloud is what multicloud should have been. And what, what it originally became is "I run on this cloud and I run on this cloud" and "I run on this cloud and I have a hybrid." And, and Supercloud is meant to create a common experience across those clouds. >> Dave Duggal: Right? >> Thanks to, you know, Supercloud middleware. >> Yeah. >> Right? And, and so that's what you guys do. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Dave, I mean, even the name EnterpriseWeb, you know we started from looking from the application layer down. If you look at it, the last 10 years we've looked from the infrastructure up, right? And now everybody's looking northbound saying "You know what, actually, if I look from the infrastructure up the only thing I'll ever build is silos, right?" And those silos get in the way of the interoperability and the agility the businesses want. So we take the perspective as high level abstractions, common tools, so that if I'm a CXO, I can look down on my environments, right? When I'm really not, I honestly, if I'm an, if I'm a CEO I don't really care or CXO, I don't really care so much about my infrastructure to be honest. I care about my applications and their behavior. I care about my SLAs and my quality of service, right? Those are the things I care about. So I really want an EnterpriseWeb, right? Something that helps me connect all my distributed applications all across all of the environments. So I can have one place a consistency layer that speaks a common language. We know that there's a lot of heterogeneity down all those layers and a lot of complexity down those layers. But the business doesn't care. They don't want to care, right? They want to actually take their applications deploy them where they're the most performant where they're getting the best cost, right? The lowest and maybe sustainability concerns, all those. They want to address those problems, meet their SLAs meet their quality service. And you know what, if it's running on Amazon, great. If it's running on Google Cloud platform, great. If it, you know, we're doing one project right here that we're demonstrating here is with with Amazon Tech Mahindra and OpenShift, where we took a disaggregated 5G core, right? So this is like sort of latest telecom, you know net networking software, right? We're deploying pulling elements of that network across core, across Amazon EKS, OpenShift on Red Hat ROSA, as well as just OpenShift for cloud. And we, through a single pane of deployment and management, we deployed the elements of the 5G core across them and then connected them in an end-to-end process. That's Telco Supercloud. >> Dave Vellante: So that's an O-RAN deployment. >> Yeah that's >> So, the big advantage of that, pardon me, Dave but the big advantage of that is the customer really doesn't care where the components are being served from for them. It's a 5G capability. It happens to sit in different locations. And that's, it's, it's about how do you abstract and how do you manage all those different workloads in a cohesive way? And that's exactly what EnterpriseWeb is bringing to the table. And what we do is we abstract the underlying infrastructure which is the cloud layer. So if, because AWS operating environment is different then private cloud operating environment then Azure environment, you have the networking is set up is different in each one of them. If there is a way you can abstract all of that and present it in a common operating model it becomes a lot easier than for anybody to be able to consume. >> And what a lot of customers tell me is the way they deal with multicloud complexity is they go with mono cloud, right? And so they'll lose out on some of the best services >> Absolutely >> If best of, so that's not >> that's not ideal, but at the end of the day, agree, developers don't want to muck with all the plumbing >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> They want to write code. >> Azhar: Correct. >> So like I come back to are the traditional Telcos leaning in on a way that they're going to enable ISVs and developers to write on top of those platforms? Or are there sort of new entrance and disruptors? And I know, I know the answer is both >> Dave Duggal: Yep. >> but I feel as though the Telcos still haven't, traditional Telcos haven't tuned in to that developer affinity, but you guys sell to them. >> What, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, so >> What we have seen is there are Telcos fall into several categories there. If you look at the most mature ones, you know they are very eager to move up the value chain. There are some smaller very nimble ones that have actually doing, they're actually doing something really interesting. For example, they've provided sandbox environments to developers to say "Go develop your applications to the sandbox environment." We'll use that to build an net service with you. I can give you some interesting examples across the globe that, where that is happening, right? In AsiaPac, particularly in Australia, ANZ region. There are a couple of providers who have who have done this, but in, in, in a very interesting way. But the challenges to them, why it's not completely open or public yet is primarily because they haven't figured out how to exactly monetize that. And, and that's the reason why. So in the absence of that, what will happen is they they have to rely on the ISV ecosystem to be able to build those capabilities which they can then bring it on as part of the catalog. But in Latin America, I was talking to one of the providers and they said, "Well look we have a public cloud, we have our own public cloud, right?" What we want do is use that to offer localized services not just bring everything in from the top >> But, but we heard from Ericson's CEO they're basically going to monetize it by what I call "gouge", the developers >> (Azhar laughs) >> access to the network telemetry as opposed to saying, "Hey, here's an open platform development on top of it and it will maybe create something like an app store and we'll take a piece of the action." >> So ours, >> to be is a better model. >> Yeah. So that's perfect. Our second project that we're showing here is with Intel, right? So Intel came to us cause they are a reputation for doing advanced automation solutions. They gave us carte blanche in their labs. So this is Intel Network Builders they said pick your partners. And we went with the Red Hat, Fort Net, Keysite this company KX doing AIML. But to address your DevX, here's Intel explicitly wants to get closer to the developers by exposing their APIs, open APIs over their infrastructure. Just like Red Hat has APIs, right? And so they can expose them northbound to developers so developers can leverage and tune their applications, right? But the challenge there is what Intel is doing at the low level network infrastructure, right? Is fundamentally complex, right? What you want is an abstraction layer where develop and this gets to, to your point Dave where you just said like "The developers just want to get their job done." or really they want to focus on the business logic and accelerate that service delivery, right? So the idea here is an EnterpriseWeb they can literally declaratively compose their services, express their intent. "I want this to run optimized for low latency. I want this to run optimized for energy consumption." Right? And that's all they say, right? That's a very high level statement. And then the run time translates it between all the elements that are participating in that service to realize the developer's intent, right? No hands, right? Zero touch, right? So that's now a movement in telecom. So you're right, it's taking a while because these are pretty fundamental shifts, right? But it's intent based networking, right? So it's almost two parts, right? One is you have to have the open APIs, right? So that the infrastructure has to expose its capabilities. Then you need abstractions over the top that make it simple for developers to take, you know, make use of them. >> See, one of the demonstrations we are doing is around AIOps. And I've had literally here on this floor, two conversations around what I call as network as a platform. Although it sounds like a cliche term, that's exactly what Dave was describing in terms of exposing APIs from the infrastructure and utilizing them. So once you get that data, then now you can do analytics and do machine learning to be able to build models and figure out how you can orchestrate better how you can monetize better, how can how you can utilize better, right? So all of those things become important. It's just not about internal optimization but it's also about how do you expose it to third party ecosystem to translate that into better delivery mechanisms or IOT capability and so on. >> But if they're going to charge me for every API call in the network I'm going to go broke (team laughs) >> And I'm going to get really pissed. I mean, I feel like, I'm just running down, Oracle. IBM tried it. Oracle, okay, they got Java, but they don't they don't have developer jobs. VMware, okay? They got Aria. EMC used to have a thing called code. IBM had to buy Red Hat to get to the developer community. (Lisa laughs) >> So I feel like the telcos don't today have those developer shops. So, so they have to partner. [Azhar] Yes. >> With guys like you and then be more open and and let a zillion flowers bloom or else they're going to get disrupted in a big way and they're going to it's going to be a repeat of the over, over the top in, in in a different model that I can't predict. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely true. I mean, look, they cannot be in the connectivity business. Telcos cannot be just in the connectivity business. It's, I think so, you know, >> Dave Vellante: You had a fry a frozen hand (Dave Daggul laughs) >> off that, you know. >> Well, you know, think about they almost have to go become over the top on themselves, right? That's what the cloud guys are doing, right? >> Yeah. >> They're riding over their backbone that by taking a creating a high level abstraction, they in turn abstract away the infrastructure underneath them, right? And that's really the end game >> Right? >> Dave Vellante: Yeah. >> Is because now, >> they're over the top it's their network, it's their infrastructure, right? They don't want to become bid pipes. >> Yep. >> Now you, they can take OpenShift, run that in any cloud. >> Yep. >> Right? >> You can run that in hybrid cloud, enterprise web can do the application layer configuration and management. And together we're running, you know, OSI layers one through seven, east to west, north to south. We're running across the the RAN, the core and the transport. And that is telco super cloud, my friend. >> Yeah. Well, >> (Dave Duggal laughs) >> I'm dominating the conversation cause I love talking super cloud. >> I knew you would. >> So speaking of super superpowers, when you're in customer or prospective customer conversations with providers and they've got, obviously they're they're in this transformative state right now. How, what do you describe as the superpower between Red Hat and EnterpriseWeb in terms of really helping these Telcos transforms. But at the end of the day, the connectivity's there the end user gets what they want, which is I want this to work wherever I am. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great question, Lisa. So I think the way you could look at it is most software has, has been evolved to be specialized, right? So in Telcos' no different, right? We have this in the enterprise, right? All these specialized stacks, all these components that they wire together in the, in you think of Telco as a sort of a super set of enterprise problems, right? They have all those problems like magnified manyfold, right? And so you have specialized, let's say orchestrators and other tools for every Telco domain for every Telco layer. Now you have a zoo of orchestrators, right? None of them were designed to work together, right? They all speak a specific language, let's say quote unquote for doing a specific purpose. But everything that's interesting in the 21st century is across layers and across domains, right? If a siloed static application, those are dead, right? Nobody's doing those anymore. Even developers don't do those developers are doing composition today. They're not doing, nobody wants to hear about a 6 million lines of code, right? They want to hear, "How did you take these five things and bring 'em together for productive use?" >> Lisa: Right. How did you deliver faster for my enterprise? How did you save me money? How did you create business value? And that's what we're doing together. >> I mean, just to add on to Dave, I was talking to one of the providers, they have more than 30,000 nodes in their infrastructure. When I say no to your servers running, you know, Kubernetes,running open stack, running different components. If try managing that in one single entity, if you will. Not possible. You got to fragment, you got to segment in some way. Now the question is, if you are not exposing that particular infrastructure and the appropriate KPIs and appropriate things, you will not be able to efficiently utilize that across the board. So you need almost a construct that creates like a manager of managers, a hierarchical structure, which would allow you to be more intelligent in terms of how you place those, how you manage that. And so when you ask the question about what's the secret sauce between the two, well this is exactly where EnterpriseWeb brings in that capability to analyze information, be more intelligent about it. And what we do is provide an abstraction of the cloud layer so that they can, you know, then do the right job in terms of making sure that it's appropriate and it's consistent. >> Consistency is key. Guys, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure really digging through EnterpriseWeb. >> Thank you. >> What you're doing >> with Red Hat. How you're helping the organization transform and Supercloud, we can't forget Supercloud. (Dave Vellante laughs) >> Fight Supercloud. Guys, thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you so much Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thank you guys. >> Very nice. >> Lisa: We really appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage coming to you live from MWC 23. We'll be back after a short break.

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome back to Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. We are live at MWC 23. This is day two of our coverage, we're giving you four days of coverage, but you already know that because you were here yesterday. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Dave this show is massive. I was walking in this morning and almost getting claustrophobic with the 80,000 people that are joining us. There is, seems to be at MWC 23 more interest in enterprise-class technology than we've ever seen before. What are some of the things that you've observed with that regard? >> Well I've observed a lot of people racing to the highest level messaging about how wonderful it is to have the kiss of a breeze on your cheek, and to feel the flowing wheat. (laughing) I want to hear about the actual things that make this stuff possible. >> Right. >> So I think we have a couple of guests here who can help us start to go down that path of actually understanding the real cool stuff that's behind the scenes. >> And absolutely we got some cool stuff. We've got two guests from Dell. Dave Lincoln is here, the VP of Networking and Emerging the Server Solutions, and Deania Davidson, Director Edge Server Product Planning and Management at Dell. So great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Two Daves, and a Davidson. >> (indistinct) >> Just me who stands alone here. (laughing) So guys talk about, Dave, we'll start with you the newest generation of PowerEdge servers. What's new? Why is it so exciting? What challenges for telecom operators is it solving? >> Yeah, well so this is actually Dell's largest server launch ever. It's the most expansive, which is notable because of, we have a pretty significant portfolio. We're very proud of our core mainstream portfolio. But really since the Supercompute in Dallas in November, that we started a rolling thunder of launches. MWC being part of that leading up to DTW here in May, where we're actually going to be announcing big investments in those parts of the market that are the growth segments of server. Specifically AIML, where we in, to address that. We're investing heavy in our XE series which we, as I said, we announced at Supercompute in November. And then we have to address the CSP segment, a big investment around the HS series which we just announced, and then lastly, the edge telecom segment which we're, we had the biggest investment, biggest announce in portfolio launch with XR series. >> Deania, lets dig into that. >> Yeah. >> Where we see the growth coming from you mentioned telecom CSPs with the edge. What are some of the growth opportunities there that organizations need Dell's help with to manage, so that they can deliver what they're demanding and user is wanting? >> The biggest areas being obviously, in addition the telecom has been the biggest one, but the other areas too we're seeing is in retail and manufacturing as well. And, so internally, I mean we're going to be focused on hardware, but we also have a solutions team who are working with us to build the solutions focused on retail, and edge and telecom as well on top of the servers that we'll talk about shortly. >> What are some of the biggest challenges that retailers and manufacturers are facing? And during the pandemic retailers, those that were successful pivoted very quickly to curbside delivery. >> Deania: Yeah. >> Those that didn't survive weren't able to do that digitally. >> Deania: Yeah. >> But we're seeing such demand. >> Yeah. >> At the retail edge. On the consumer side we want to get whatever we want right now. >> Yes. >> It has to be delivered, it has to be personalized. Talk a little bit more about some of the challenges there, within those two verticals and how Dell is helping to address those with the new server technologies. >> For retail, I think there's couple of things, the one is like in the fast food area. So obviously through COVID a lot of people got familiar and comfortable with driving through. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And so there's probably a certain fast food restaurant everyone's pretty familiar with, they're pretty efficient in that, and so there are other customers who are trying to replicate that, and so how do we help them do that all, from a technology perspective. From a retail, it's one of the pickup and the online experience, but when you go into a store, I don't know about you but I go to Target, and I'm looking for something and I have kids who are kind of distracting you. Its like where is this one thing, and so I pull up the Target App for example, and it tells me where its at, right. And then obviously, stores want to make more money, so like hey, since you picked this thing, there are these things around you. So things like that is what we're having conversations with customers about. >> It's so interesting because the demand is there. >> Yeah, it is. >> And its not going to go anywhere. >> No. >> And it's certainly not going to be dialed down. We're not going to want less stuff, less often. >> Yeah (giggles) >> And as typical consumers, we don't necessarily make the association between what we're seeing in the palm of our hand on a mobile device. >> Deania: Right. >> And the infrastructure that's actually supporting all of it. >> Deania: Right. >> People hear the term Cloud and they think cloud-phone mystery. >> Yeah, magic just happens. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But in fact, in order to support the things that we want to be able to do. >> Yeah. >> On the move, you have to optimize the server hardware. >> Deania: Yes. >> In certain ways. What does that mean exactly? When you say that its optimized, what are the sorts of decisions that you make when you're building? I think of this in the terms of Lego bricks. >> Yes, yeah >> Put together. What are some of the decisions that you make? >> So there were few key things that we really had to think about in terms of what was different from the Data center, which obviously supports the cloud environment, but it was all about how do we get closer to the customer right? How do we get things really fast and how do we compute that information really quickly. So for us, it's things like size. All right, so our server is going to weigh one of them is the size of a shoe box and (giggles), we have a picture with Dave. >> Dave: It's true. >> Took off his shoe. >> Its actually, its actually as big as a shoe. (crowd chuckles) >> It is. >> It is. >> To be fair, its a pretty big shoe. >> True, true. >> It is, but its small in relative to the old big servers that you see. >> I see what you're doing, you find a guy with a size 12, (crowd giggles) >> Yeah. >> Its the size of your shoe. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Its literally the size of a shoe, and that's our smallest server and its the smallest one in the portfolio, its the XR 4000, and so we've actually crammed a lot of technology in there going with the Intel ZRT processors for example to get into that compute power. The XR 8000 which you'll be hearing a lot more about shortly with our next guest is one I think from a telco perspective is our flagship product, and its size was a big thing there too. Ruggedization so its like (indistinct) certification, so it can actually operate continuously in negative 5 to 55 C, which for customers, or they need that range of temperature operation, flexibility was a big thing too. In meaning that, there are some customers who wanted to have one system in different areas of deployment. So can I take this one system and configure it one way, take that same system, configure another way and have it here. So flexibility was really key for us as well, and so we'll actually be seeing that in the next segment coming. >> I think one of, some of the common things you're hearing from this is our focus on innovation, purpose build servers, so yes our times, you know economic situation like in itself is tough yeah. But far from receding we've doubled down on investment and you've seen that with the products that we are launching here, and we will be launching in the years to come. >> I imagine there's a pretty sizeable day impact to the total adjustable market for PowerEdge based on the launch what you're doing, its going to be a tam, a good size tam expansion. >> Yeah, absolutely. Depending on how you look at it, its roughly we add about $30 Billion of adjustable tam between the three purposeful series that we've launched, XE, HS and XR. >> Can you comment on, I know Dell and customers are like this. Talk about, I'd love to get both of your perspective, I'm sure you have a favorite customer stories. But talk about the involvement of the customer in the generation, and the evolution of PowerEdge. Where are they in that process? What kind of feedback do they deliver? >> Well, I mean, just to start, one thing that is essential Cortana of Dell period, is it all is about the customer. All of it, everything that we do is about the customer, and so there is a big focus at our level, from on high to get out there and talk with customers, and actually we have a pretty good story around XR8000 which is call it our flagship of the XR line that we've just announced, and because of this deep customer intimacy, there was a last minute kind of architectural design change. >> Hm-mm. >> Which actually would have been, come to find out it would have been sort of a fatal flaw for deployment. So we corrected that because of this tight intimacy with our customers. This was in two Thanksgiving ago about and, so anyways it's super cool and the fact that we were able to make a change so late in development cycle, that's a testament to a lot of the speed and, speed of innovation that we're driving, so anyway that was that's one, just case of one example. >> Hm-mm. >> Let talk about AI, we can't go to any trade show without talking about AI, the big thing right now is ChatGPT. >> Yeah. >> I was using it the other day, it's so interesting. But, the growing demand for AI, talk about how its driving the evolution of the server so that more AI use cases can become more (indistinct). >> In the edge space primarily, we actually have another product, so I guess what you'll notice in the XR line itself because there are so many different use cases and technologies that support the different use cases. We actually have a range form factor, so we have really small, I guess I would say 350 ml the size of a shoe box, you know, Dave's shoe box. (crowd chuckles) And then we also have, at the other end a 472, so still small, but a little bit bigger, but we did recognize obviously AI was coming up, and so that is our XR 7620 platform and that does support 2 GPUs right, so, like for Edge infrencing, making sure that we have the capability to support customers in that too, but also in the small one, we do also have a GPU capability there, that also helps in those other use cases as well. So we've built the platforms even though they're small to be able to handle the GPU power for customers. >> So nice tight package, a lot of power there. >> Yes. >> Beside as we've all clearly demonstrated the size of Dave's shoe. (crowd chuckles) Dave, talk about Dell's long standing commitment to really helping to rapidly evolve the server market. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Its a pivotal payer there. >> Well, like I was saying, we see innovation, I mean, this is, to us its a race to the top. You talked about racing and messaging that sort of thing, when you opened up the show here, but we see this as a race to the top, having worked at other server companies where maybe its a little bit different, maybe more of a race to the bottom source of approach. That's what I love about being at Dell. This is very much, we understand that it's innovation is that is what's going to deliver the most value for our customers. So whether its some of the first to market, first of its kind sort of innovation that you find in the XR4000, or XR8000, or any of our XE line, we know that at the end of day, that is what going to propel Dell, do the best for our customers and thereby do the best for us. To be honest, its a little bit surprising walking by some of our competitors booths, there's been like a dearth of zero, like no, like it's almost like you wouldn't even know that there was a big launch here right? >> Yeah. >> Or is it just me? >> No. >> It was a while, we've been walking around and yet we've had, and its sort of maybe I should take this as a flattery, but a lot of our competitors have been coming by to our booth everyday actually. >> Deania: Yeah, everyday. >> They came by multiple times yesterday, they came by multiple times today, they're taking pictures of our stuff I kind of want to just send 'em a sample. >> Lisa: Or your shoe. >> Right? Or just maybe my shoe right? But anyway, so I suppose I should take it as an honor. >> Deania: Yeah. >> And conversely when we've walked over there we actually get in back (indistinct), maybe I need a high Dell (indistinct). (crowd chuckles) >> We just had that experience, yeah. >> Its kind of funny but. >> Its a good position to be in. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> You talked about the involvement of the customers, talk a bit more about Dell's ecosystem is also massive, its part of what makes Dell, Dell. >> Wait did you say ego-system? (laughing) After David just. >> You caught that? Darn it! The talk about the influence or the part of the ecosystem and also some of the feedback from the partners as you've been rapidly evolving the server market and clearly your competitors are taking notice. >> Yeah, sorry. >> Deania: That's okay. >> Dave: you want to take that? >> I mean I would say generally, one of the things that Dell prides itself on is being able to deliver the worlds best innovation into the hands of our customers, faster and better that any other, the optimal solution. So whether its you know, working with our great partners like Intel, AMD Broadcom, these sorts of folks. That is, at the end of the day that is our core mantra, again its retractor on service, doing the best, you know, what's best for the customers. And we want to bring the world's best innovation from our technology partners, get it into the hands of our partners you know, faster and better than any other option out there. >> Its a satisfying business for all of us to be in, because to your point, I made a joke about the high level messaging. But really, that's what it comes down to. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> We do these things, we feel like sometimes we're toiling in obscurity, working with the hardware. But what it delivers. >> Deania: Hm-mm. >> The experiences. >> Dave: Absolutely. >> Deania: Yes. >> Are truly meaningful. So its a fun. >> Absolutely. >> Its a really fun thing to be a part of. >> It is. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Is there a favorite customer story that you have that really articulates the value of what Dell is doing, full PowerEdge, at the Edge? >> Its probably one I can't particularly name obviously but, it was, they have different environments, so, in one case there's like on flights or on sea vessels, and just being able to use the same box in those different environments is really cool. And they really appreciate having the small compact, where they can just take the server with them and go somewhere. That was really cool to me in terms of how they were using the products that we built for them. >> I have one that's kind of funny. It around XR8000. Again a customer I won't name but they're so proud of it, they almost kinds feel like they co defined it with us, they want to be on the patent with us so, anyways that's. >> Deania: (indistinct). >> That's what they went in for, yeah. >> So it shows the strength of the partnership that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Of course, the ecosystem of partners, customers, CSVs, telecom Edge. Guys thank you so much for joining us today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Sharing what's new with the PowerEdge. We can't wait to, we're just, we're cracking open the box, we saw the shoe. (laughing) And we're going to be dealing a little bit more later. So thank you. >> We're going to be able to touch something soon? >> Yes, yes. >> Yeah. >> In couple of minutes? >> Next segment I think. >> All right! >> Thanks for setting the table for that guys. We really appreciate your time. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> Alright, our pleasure. >> For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin . You're watching theCUBE. The leader in live tech coverage, LIVE in Barcelona, Spain, MWC 23. Don't go anywhere, we will be right back with our next guests. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're here at Supercomputing 22 in Dallas. My name's Paul Gill, I'm your host. With me, Dave Nicholson, my co-host. And one thing that struck me about this conference arriving here, was the number of universities that are exhibiting here. I mean, big, big exhibits from universities. Never seen that at a conference before. And one of those universities is Indiana University. Our two guests, Dave Jent, who's the AVP of Networks at Indiana University, Aaron Neal, Deputy CIO at Indiana University. Welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I've always thought that the CIO job at a university has got to be the toughest CIO job there is, because you're managing this sprawling network, people are doing all kinds of different things on it. You've got to secure it. You've got to make it performant. And it just seems to be a big challenge. Talk about the network at Indiana University and what you have done particularly since the pandemic, how that has affected the architecture of your network. And what you do to maintain the levels of performance and security that you need. >> On the network side one of the things we've done is, kept in close contact with what the incoming students are looking for. It's a different environment than it was then 10 years ago when a student would come, maybe they had a phone, maybe they had one laptop. Today they're coming with multiple phones, multiple laptops, gaming devices. And the expectation that they have to come on a campus and plug all that stuff in causes lots of problems for us, in managing just the security aspect of it, the capacity, the IP space required to manage six, seven devices per student when you have 35,000 students on campus, has always been a challenge. And keeping ahead of that knowing what students are going to come in with, has been interesting. During the pandemic the campus was closed for a bit of time. What we found was our biggest challenge was keeping up with the number of people who wanted to VPN to campus. We had to buy additional VPN licenses so they could do their work, authenticate to the network. We doubled, maybe even tripled our our VPN license count. And that has settled down now that we're back on campus. But again, they came back with a vengeance. More gaming devices, more things to be connected, and into an environment that was a couple years old, that we hadn't done much with. We had gone through a pretty good size network deployment of new hardware to try to get ready for them. And it's worked well, but it's always challenging to keep up with students. >> Aaron, I want to ask you about security because that really is one of your key areas of focus. And you're collaborating with counties, local municipalities, as well as other educational institutions. How's your security strategy evolving in light of some of the vulnerabilities of VPNs that became obvious during the pandemic, and this kind of perfusion of new devices that that Dave was talking about? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we we did several years ago was establish what we call OmniSOC, which is a shared security operations center in collaboration with other institutions as well as research centers across the United States and in Indiana. And really what that is, is we took the lessons that we've learned and the capabilities that we've had within the institution and looked to partner with those key institutions to bring that data in-house, utilize our staff such that we can look for security threats and share that information across the the other institutions so that we can give each of those areas a heads up and work with those institutions to address any kind of vulnerabilities that might be out there. One of the other things that you mentioned is, we're partnering with Purdue in the Indiana Office of Technology on a grant to actually work with municipalities, county governments, to really assess their posture as it relates to security in those areas. It's a great opportunity for us to work together as institutions as well as work with the state in general to increase our posture as it relates to security. >> Dave, what brings IU to Supercomputing 2022? >> We've been here for a long time. And I think one of the things that we're always interested in is, what's next? What's new? There's so many, there's network vendors, software vendors, hardware vendors, high performance computing suppliers. What is out there that we're interested in? IU runs a large Cray system in Indiana called Big Red 200. And with any system you procure it, you get it running, you operate it, and your next goal is to upgrade it. And what's out there that we might be interested? That I think why we come to IU. We also like to showcase what we do at IU. If you come by the booth you'll see the OmniSOC, there's some video on that. The GlobalNOC, which I manage, which supports a lot of the RNE institutions in the country. We talk about that. Being able to have a place for people to come and see us. If you stand by the booth long enough people come and find you, and want to talk about a project they have, or a collaboration they'd like to partner with. We had a guy come by a while ago wanting a job. Those are all good things having a big booth can do for you. >> Well, so on that subject, in each of your areas of expertise and your purview are you kind of interleaved with the academic side of things on campus? Do you include students? I mean, I would think it would be a great source of cheap labor for you at least. Or is there kind of a wall between what you guys are responsible for and what students? >> Absolutely we try to support faculty and students as much as we can. And just to go back a little bit on the OmniSOC discussion. One of the things that we provide is internships for each of the universities that we work with. They have to sponsor at least three students every year and make that financial commitment. We bring them on site for three weeks. They learn us alongside the other analysts, information security analysts and work in a real world environment and gain those skills to be able to go back to their institutions and do an additional work there. So it's a great program for us to work with students. I think the other thing that we do is we provide obviously the infrastructure that enable our faculty members to do the research that they need to do. Whether that's through Big Red 200, our Supercomputer or just kind of the everyday infrastructure that allows them to do what they need to do. We have an environment on premise called our Intelligent Infrastructure, that we provide managed access to hardware and storage resources in a way that we know it's secure and they can utilize that environment to do virtually anything that they need in a server environment. >> Dave, I want to get back to the GigaPOP, which you mentioned earlier you're the managing director of the Indiana GigaPOP. What exactly is it? >> Well, the GigaPOP and there are a number of GigaPOP around the country. It was really the aggregation facility for Indiana and all of the universities in Indiana to connect to outside resources. GigaPOP has connections to internet too, the commodity internet, Esnet, the Big Ten or the BTAA a network in Chicago. It's a way for all universities in Indiana to connect to a single source to allow them to connect nationally to research organizations. >> And what are the benefits of having this collaboration of university. >> If you could think of a researcher at Indiana wants to do something with a researcher in Wisconsin, they both connect to their research networks in Wisconsin and Indiana, and they have essentially direct connection. There's no commodity internet, there's no throttling of of capacity. Both networks and the interconnects because we use internet too, are essentially UNT throttled access for the researchers to do anything they need to do. It's secure, it's fast, easy to use, in fact, so easy they don't even know that they're using it. It just we manage the networks and organize the networks in a way configure them that's the path of least resistance and that's the path traffic will take. And that's nationally. There are lots of these that are interconnected in various ways. I do want to get back to the labor point, just for a moment. (laughs) Because... >> You're here to claim you're not violating any labor laws. Is that what you're going to be? >> I'm here to hopefully hire, get more people to be interested to coming to IU. >> Stop by the booth. >> It's a great place to work. >> Exactly. >> We hire lots of interns and in the network space hiring really experienced network engineers, really hard to do, hard to attract people. And these days when you can work from anywhere, you don't have to be any place to work for anybody. We try to attract as many students as we can. And really we're exposing 'em to an environment that exists in very few places. Tens of thousands of wireless access points, big fast networks, interconnections and national international networks. We support the Noah network which supports satellite systems and secure traffic. It really is a very unique experience and you can come to IU, spend lots of years there and never see the same thing twice. We think we have an environment that's really a good way for people to come out of college, graduate school, work for some number of years and hopefully stay at IU, but if not, leave and get a good job and talk well about IU. In fact, the wireless network today here at SC was installed and is managed by a person who manages our campus network wireless, James Dickerson. That's the kind of opportunity we can provide people at IU. >> Aaron, I'd like to ask, you hear a lot about everything moving to the cloud these days, but in the HPC world I don't think that move is happening as quickly as it is in some areas. In fact, there's a good argument some workloads should never move to the cloud. You're having to balance these decisions. Where are you on the thinking of what belongs in the data center and what belongs in the cloud? >> I think our approach has really been specific to what the needs are. As an institution, we've not pushed all our chips in on the cloud, whether it be for high performance computing or otherwise. It's really looking at what the specific need is and addressing it with the proper solution. We made an investment several years ago in a data center internally, and we're leveraging that through the intelligent infrastructure that I spoke about. But really it's addressing what the specific need is and finding the specific solution, rather than going all in in one direction or another. I dunno if Jet Stream is something that you would like to bring up as well. >> By having our own data center and having our own facilities we're able to compete for NSF grants and work on projects that provide shared resources for the research community. Just dream is a project that does that. Without a data center and without the ability to work on large projects, we don't have any of that. If you don't have that then you're dependent on someone else. We like to say that, what we are proud of is the people come to IU and ask us if they can partner on our projects. Without a data center and those resources we are the ones who have to go out and say can we partner on your project? We'd like to be the leaders of that in that space. >> I wanted to kind of double click on something you mentioned. Couple of things. Historically IU has been I'm sure closely associated with Chicago. You think of what are students thinking of doing when they graduate? Maybe they're going to go home, but the sort of center of gravity it's like Chicago. You mentioned talking about, especially post pandemic, the idea that you can live anywhere. Not everybody wants to live in Manhattan or Santa Clara. And of course, technology over decades has given us the ability to do things remotely and IU is plugged into the globe, doesn't matter where you are. But have you seen either during or post pandemic 'cause we're really in the early stages of this. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing people say, Hey, thinking about their family, where do I want to live? Where do I want to raise my family? I'm in academia and no, I don't want to live in Manhattan. Hey, we can go to IU and we're plugged into the globe. And then students in California we see this, there's some schools on the central coast where people loved living there when they were in college but there was no economic opportunity there. Are you seeing a shift, are basically houses in Bloomington becoming unaffordable because people are saying, you know what, I'm going to stay here. What does that look like? >> I mean, for our group there are a lot of people who do work from home, have chosen to stay in Bloomington. We have had some people who for various reasons want to leave. We want to retain them, so we allow them to work remotely. And that has turned into a tool for recruiting. The kid that graduates from Caltech. Doesn't want to stay in Caltech in California, we have an opportunity now he can move to wherever between here and there and we can hire him do work. We love to have people come to Indiana. We think it is a unique experience, Bloomington, Indianapolis are great places. But I think the reality is, we're not going to get everybody to come live, be a Hoosier, how do we get them to come and work at IU? In some ways disappointing when we don't have buildings full of people, but 40 paying Zoom or teams window, not kind the same thing. But I think this is what we're going to have to figure out, how do we make this kind of environment work. >> Last question here, give you a chance to put in a plug for Indiana University. For those those data scientists those researchers who may be open to working somewhere else, why would they come to Indiana University? What's different about what you do from what every other academic institution does, Aaron? >> Yeah, I think a lot of what we just talked about today in terms of from a network's perspective, that were plugged in globally. I think if you look beyond the networks I think there are tremendous opportunities for folks to come to Bloomington and experience some bleeding edge technology and to work with some very talented people. I've been amazed, I've been at IU for 20 years and as I look at our peers across higher ed, well, I don't want to say they're not doing as well I do want brag at how well we're doing in terms of organizationally addressing things like security in a centralized way that really puts us in a better position. We're just doing a lot of things that I think some of our peers are catching up to and have been catching up to over the last 10, 12 years. >> And I think to sure scale of IU goes unnoticed at times. IU has the largest medical school in the country. One of the largest nursing schools in the country. And people just kind of overlook some of that. Maybe we need to do a better job of talking about it. But for those who are aware there are a lot of opportunities in life sciences, healthcare, the social sciences. IU has the largest logistics program in the world. We teach more languages than anybody else in the world. The varying kinds of things you can get involved with at IU including networks, I think pretty unparalleled. >> Well, making the case for high performance computing in the Hoosier State. Aaron, Dave, thanks very much for joining you making a great case. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back right after this short message. This is theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> theCUBE Presents UiPath FORWARD 5. Brought to you by UiPath. >> We're back in Las Vegas live. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of FORWARD 5 UiPath's customer event. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson. Our third Dave Espinoza is here, Director of Transformation at Cushman & Wakefield. And Marshall Sied is also here. He's the co-founder of Ashling Partners. Guys, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> We know Cushman & Wakefield, huge real estate firm. We'll come back to that, wanted to dig into some of the industry trends. But Marshall, what is Ashling Partners all about? >> Great question, Dave. So Ashling Partners was founded with modern automation and continuous improvement in mind. So a lot of us used to implement large ERP systems, accounting transaction systems. We viewed RPA and broader intelligent automation as kind of the wave of the future. So everything we do has continuous process improvement and automation in mind together. So we don't want to decouple, we want bring those together in an agile way. >> It's interesting, Rob Enslin this morning on the stage was talking about the waves of industry tech that used ERP was where he started and you know, et cetera, internet and now automation. He's sort of drawing that analogy. It's interesting that you're seeing the same pattern. >> David: Were were you fist bumping in the back of the room? >> Marshall: Absolutely. >> Well, I mean there's a lot of opportunity there. A lot of money to be made on both ends. Dave, talk about your firm. What's going on in the industry specifically? You joined sort of as we're exiting the isolation economy. Right? So what's happening in the industry now? I mean, real estate has been up and down and, you know, wild ride, you know, with COVID. What are the big trends in the industry that are informing your automation strategy. >> And actually I joined probably like right in the middle of the isolation economy. So it was a really interesting time to like to, I'm sure for most people also onboarding into groups. But coming on Cushman, you know, Cushman itself is an organization that formed predominantly through acquisition and through merger, right? So three large companies came together. And so a lot of the times the sort of headaches and the opportunities that we find are probably no different than other legacy organizations have when they're merging three companies together, right? So lots of disparate process, lots of paper, lots of process that isn't really very standardized. And so really it's a lot about us trying to make sure that we're continuing to double down on really that continuous process improvement but also bringing technology, lots of different types of technologies to bear to solve different problems throughout the organization. >> Well is the pandemic a catalyst for the automation initiative? Or actually you guys started before that I think, Marshall started about 2018. But was it like a rocket booster during the pandemic or was it more sort of steady state? >> I think it was actually a little bit of both Dave. 'Cause the reality is there was already top down executive support at Cushman pre-pandemic. So Cushman was already moving on this in a big way and they had executive sponsorship across the C-suite. Pandemic came, never a good time for a pandemic, but it came at a decent time for Cushman because they were prepared. They had the foundation of governance, everything you need in a large enterprise to run a program. They had that in place so they were able to kind of just put kerosene on the fire when the pandemic hit with certain automation candidates. >> Because I often said that pre-pandemic, you know, digital transformation was kind of this buzzword. A lot of firms were sort of giving it lip service. But it sounds like Cushman actually had started down the digital transformation path and then obviously everybody was accelerated. If you weren't digital business, you were out of business. But but how tightly aligned, 'cause we heard this in the keynotes today, I'd like to test it. How tightly aligned is automation and digital transformation at Cushman. >> They're pretty synonymous really for us, right? So like it is really about bringing different types of technologies, whether it's like NLP. The other really interesting thing that we were talking about the keynote, right? There's just so much that is going into the UiPath platform that is enabling us and enabling the things that we want to do across the organization, right? So like natural language processing, document understanding, you know, cloud based items. Like there's just so much that we can leverage and it's really about that continuous process improvement. It's trying to make sure that we're aligning ourselves to the strategy that the organization is absolutely pushing, but making sure that we're doing it in smart ways, right? And that we're empowering our employees as we do it, right? So it's not just very top down from a COE, it's also very bottoms up, very citizen-led throughout the organization. >> So I think of this as a strategic initiative that happens over time. But how does Ashling, and Marshall, how do you engage with Cushman? Do you engage on a project by project basis? Do you have sort of a long term strategic arc that you're working to? >> Absolutely. >> How does that work? >> No, that's a great question. So we started project based, so we were a part of the co-establishment of the intelligent automation COE. So very outcome driven, top down approach as Dave mentioned. But we also had a wider aperture than just RPA. It was broader end to end automation experiences that was project based. We had so much kind of quantifiable evidence at that point that we wanted to go bigger with the program. Over time we matured into more of an agile DevOps methodology with the Cushman team. And Dave should certainly speak about the size of the Cushman team and how that's evolved over time, but- >> Because the two of you are in a partnership in terms of proving out the ROI of what you're doing. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Right? >> Marshall: Every day, every day. We all have numbers we got to hit, right? And that's just the reality of it. But in order to do that, you know, agile DevOps approach where you're, you know, releasing every two weeks into production, you need a dedicated team that has like a longer term roadmap that is coinciding with the Cushman objective. So that's what we have in place today, something we call build as a service and mROC. So kind of think of that as as plan, build, and then run. We're infused. You have to be infused with your clients if you're going to run an agile DevOps program. >> Is automation more self-funding? Marshall, I want to draw on your experience with ERP. Is automation more self-funding than other technology initiatives? And if so, why or if not, why not? >> It is, and it's a double edged sword actually. We talk about this all the time at Ashling. We've never worked in an enterprise technology space where there's more accountability to value delivered because it's so quantifiable and measurable. So every time a transaction runs you can measure- >> Dave: How are we doing? >> Exactly, I mean the ERP days, nobody questioned. They just, they thought we just have to move to S/4HANA, we just have to move to Oracle. >> We'll let you know in a couple years. >> That's it, yeah. >> I mean the stuff that we just saw earlier from Javier Castellanos, right, from Orange. It is very much like each transaction has a value associated to it. Each part of that transaction has a value associated to it. We're constantly monitoring the numbers of looking at our performance, right? There's very real value associated to maintaining business as usual for the 50 plus automations that we have in production, right? So like the business is really counting on us to maintain and to make sure that we're continuing to perform. But also that we're continuing to work with them to find additional value and additional opportunities, right? To make sure that we are saving money and finding dollars- >> But it's dropping hard dollars to the bottom line, right, that are quantifiable to your point. But what's the governor, what's the barrier to your ability to absorb whether it's new automation? Is it just expertise, talent, or you bandwidth? Is it the prioritization exercise and thinking intelligently about, you know not- >> Dave: All of that. >> So how do you, I guess you guys work together, but take us through that a little bit. >> I mean, we're constantly refining our approach. So we were just talking about our DevOps approach. You know, we started with I think maybe five or six different teams based on specific service lines. We modulated that recently to go to two teams, right? One specific to build and one specific to enhance. So we're constantly looking for and building new automations throughout the organization. And then also looking for incremental value to enhance the automations that we've got out there, right? So making them better, faster, making them more resilient so resolving technical debt, doing a lot of different things to make sure that we're as stable as we possibly can be. But it's not only that, it's really like making sure like we're just as pinched by everybody else in terms of like the great resignation and looking for talent. I think everybody here is basically looking for the exact same talent. And so it's really making sure that we have interesting work, we're doing interesting work, we're making people feel valued, and we're bringing value throughout the business. >> So I remember Bobby Patrick called me when he joined UiPath. He goes, "You're not going to believe what I'm doing now. You got to get on this train." And so I started looking to it and we actually downloaded, you know, the package and started playing with it. And we tried to do it with the competitors, we, you know, we couldn't. It was like call for pricing kind of thing. We're like, well that's interesting. But what we saw was my perspective, this bottoms up adoption. And I know there was top down as well. But then, I remember I was in the meeting when they announced the sort of process gold acquisition and then started, I said, "Okay, they're going for platform now." And then Microsoft came into the market like, okay, they got to differentiate there. Now you're seeing everybody, all the software companies think they should own every dollar that's ever spent on software. So SAP's doing it and ServiceNow. And so Marshall, from your perspective, how has this platform evolved? And then Dave, to the extent you can talk about it, how is that platform adoption taking shape within the organization? I mean, platforms are much more complicated than products and they require integration. How is UiPath doing there? >> I think they're doing fantastic in that category. If you think about, and it's been a natural evolution. They're not fighting inertia, they're following challenges of their clients, right? So RPA obviously came onto the scene hot, everybody understands the business rule driven automation value. Easy to, you know, make a quantifiable, tangible evidence with RPA. But exceptions happen in a business and upstream processes break that, you know, cause challenges with downstream automations. So what do you do? You have to go upstream. You have to have more automations, you have to have process discovery, process mining with process gold. You need to have the ability to have a better user experience interface, which we've definitely incorporated into Cushman when we didn't get adoption with certain automations that we like. You build low-code apps. People want that consumerization of technology in the enterprise and that allows them to adopt more of the automation which triggers the robots and then you report analytics on it. So that expansion's been pretty natural with UiPath and I think the next acquisition they just made with Re:infer's really interesting, 'cause now you're going even more upstream with communication mining, turning that into structure data that you potentially could automate or analyze so it's been natural. It's truly the only platform that we've encountered that can do all of this at this point. >> So a couple things there. You know, one is the nuance of adoptions, not just the function of the potential savings or, you know, revenue production or productivity. It's, you know, the experience because you got to have a great UI. And then what are you going to do with Re:infer? I don't know if you guys are adopting Re:infer but what do you see as the potential. Marshall and Dave, if you guys have visibility on it? >> I know we've talked about it Dave so I mean the potential's huge. I think it's going to be more of a question of change management for each organization just to feel comfortable with that. But I mean, think about all of the communication and the semi and unstructured data in an organization that comes, you know, via Slacks, Teams, emails. It's huge and it's significant if you can figure out the right identifiers that you want to trigger for your business. And then figure out is that something downstream we can automate or can we just analyze and make our business more effective, more efficient, or provide a better experience. So I think it's huge. We don't know how big this is yet, but we know that it's something that, I mean, think about Cushman, get brokers all day long that are communicating with clients and third parties. So it could be extremely significant. >> Sounds like a potential to eliminate email hell, but. >> Marshall: Heard those promises before. >> Maybe that's like the paperless office eventually. >> Well in our organizations, like 50, 40 to 50,000 people, you know, globally, right? And there are definitely service lines within our organization where probably it doesn't make sense for us to leverage UiPath and provide them the, you know, studio and low code, no code automation tools. But a lot of this NLP stuff and a lot of the content mining and the communication mining stuff, really has the ability for us to be able to sort of pinpoint opportunities at levels that we couldn't possibly do it before. So it was really very exciting to see the stuff that we were in there. I think when you start your organization, a lot of times you're a hammer looking for a nail, right? And you need to quickly move away from that. And so I think a lot of the stuff that UiPath is introducing, a lot of the stuff that they're bringing into their platform, really helps us to be moving away from that sort of orientation. >> Well when you think of this in terms of CI/CD, you know, people maybe have a better understanding of sort of the life cycles and, you know, the iteration calendar. Can you give us an example of something that went from an idea, something like, "Hey, I think we might be able to automate this process" through "Okay, yeah, let's do it." You try it, at some point there's sort of quality testing involved to make sure that it's achieving that we want to do. Can you give us an example of a process that you've gone through? And then how long do those things usually take? Are we talking weeks, months? What are we talking about from idea to establishing that, "Yeah, this is something we want to keep in place." >> Dave: We always want to make it faster. So we're especially always trying to find ways, especially upfront parts of the process. So a lot of the analysis, requirements gathering, you know, stuff that's not actual building. We want to make sure that we're shrinking that as much as possible, that we're also being comprehensive so that we're not building something that doesn't meet someone's needs, right? Or that just completely misses the mark. But I mean, invoice processing is a good example. We do that internally. Obviously, we have corporate accounting. We also do that on behalf of clients. And so a lot of times, you know, we're bringing some of the internal processes, we're using the technologies for document understanding, optical character reading, and machine learning. And we're doing that on behalf of clients, but we're also doing that internally. So to be able to use some of those processes and automations, sort of client facing plus internally, are big changes. Big changes for us. But I think the other thing too is like, we're always trying to make it faster and better. I think that's one of those also processes where we put something in place and we're constantly looking to enhance it, make it better based on the process that's out here. >> And you're applying automation to that upfront piece, the planning phase? Is that right? Or? >> Yeah, yeah, so a lot of it is about sort of the work that we do on behalf of clients. And there are teams who are specifically tasked to accounts. And so we're looking to find ways to make it easier for those accounts to get their bills paid, to get visibility into, you know, accounts payable, accounts receivable, their full end to end accounts lifecycle. And so yeah, we're doing that directly on behalf of clients and then we're doing that internally. >> How about the why UiPath question. Marshall, I think I heard you say that you're pretty much exclusively UiPath as your automation partner. Why? Why not play the field? Why UiPath? >> So I think it started in like 2017, 2018 for Ashling. We did an analysis of kind of an outside in of what, at that point was the big three of RPA, the vision and the roadmap and the open platform architecture of UiPath and just the self-awareness that, "Hey, we need to operate with other technologies in order for our clients to get the most value from automation." That was really the main reason, outside of the fact that we like working with UiPath, but it was just that complete vision of a platform as opposed to a tool. We felt like everybody else was more of a pointed tool and then UiPath had this platform approach and it was going to be necessary to go end to end like we all are trying to achieve. >> And UiPath continues to deepen that, right? They continues to support us with tons of new technology- >> How so? Can you be specific? >> I mean, when we're talking about document understanding, I mean, we're trying to leverage that for manual handwritten time sheets. We're also using it for, you know, Chronos integration, right? So like there's a lot of stuff that we're using it for and we can go to a single shop, right? To be able to do it, a single platform from a scalability and a supportability perspective, it's also a big game changer for us, right? As you start, you want to be able to scale, but you can't spend a ton of money supporting, you know, a hundred different platforms. You really got to invest and be smart about it. And UiPath for us was a really smart play. >> Are you budget limited relative, you're competing with other initiatives within the organization? Where's the funding come from? Is it from the business? Is it from IT? Is it a combination? >> It had been centrally funded and we are now moving into a different model. So we are constantly looking at, you know, the justification of value, speed to value, and proving it out to our business partners from all service lines and within all different functions of the organization. So we're at an interesting inflection point, but I think we also have a really good background that we're building on. >> I've been saying it all day, I've said it for years, at the UiPath events that they are awesome about putting customers on theCUBE and we love to hear from the customer stories because we get to sort of map what we hear in the keynotes and then test it, right, in the real world. And I also really love the fact that Marshall, UiPath always brings implementation partners so we can get the expertise and you have a wider observation space. So guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and thanks for sharing your stories and good luck in the future. >> Thanks for having us. >> Appreciate it guys. >> Very welcome. >> Thank you. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave Vellante live from Las Vegas UiPath FORWARD 5. We'll be right back right after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Lisa Martin here of theCUBE. I have three guests now here with me. Please welcome Dave Fafel, chief technology officer at WEI. And welcome back to the program, Terry Richardson, North American channel chief at AMD, and Dr. John Fry, chief technologist, sustainable transformation at HPE. Gentlemen, it's great to have you on the program. Thanks so much for hopping on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> (indistinct) >> So, Dave, let's start with you, a lot of acronyms here. Talk to us about WEI and its approach to sustainability. >> Yeah, absolutely, sure. So, WEI is a innovative, full service, customer-centric, IT solutions provider. We're experts in business technology improvement, in driving efficiency, helping our customers to optimize their IT environments. That's what we do. And of course, sustainability is really now part of the core function in architecting IT solutions these days. It has to be. I look at sustainability and I hear the word sustainability and I think efficiency. And that's the way that our organization designs solutions for our customers today. >> Talk about the impetus. You mentioned being customer centric you talked about efficiency, all incredibly important to all of us on this Zoom, but Dave, talk about the impetus for WEI to develop and implement this sustainability initiative. Well, I mean, so look, for WEI, it's part of our business model, it's part of our culture. So it's natural that that comes out in the solutions that we design for our customers, but we're trying to solve business problems for our customers, We're not just geeks building something really cool with the latest technology, we're trying to solve real world problems and sustainability addresses real world issues. And so, our customers are looking for us to help them either implement their sustainability programs, or to mature their sustainability programs. And IT has a big responsibility in that. And so, when we're working with them to solve these problems we're really solving that business problem, solving that sustainability, IT initiative that they have. >> And we're going to dig and unpack that in a little bit. John, I want to bring you into the conversation. HPE and AMD have been long partnering on advancing sustainability goals for quite a long time now. Can you talk about how HPE and WEI are partnering? What are some of the key aspects of the relationship that help support not only the goals that Dave talked about but HPE's sustainability goals? >> Yeah, absolutely. One of the things in sustainability is partnership is really leadership. No one company can do this by themselves, and customers really need that input and perspective from all of their partners as part of this process. So, for us as HPE, 65% of our carbon footprint, for example, is when our customers use our technology products. So, for us to lower our carbon footprint, it also requires us helping the customer do that. And that's where the power of the AMD and HPE relationship comes together, but we can't give our expertise widely to every customer in the world. And so, we use our channel partners like WEI to not only extend our reach, but they bring that deep knowledge of the customer and all of their operations across technology, even places where HPE does not offer that technology, in the client space, for example, or in the printer space. And so, what it allows us to do is develop better solutions for the customer. WEI has a deep relationship with the customer. They have a deep expertise in local nuances if there's regulations or local constraints. In fact, in many cities in the world, you can't, for example, build new data centers because of power infrastructure constraints. So, that's where we leverage partners like WEI to improve the customer experience and make sure that we give the best solutions to the customer. >> All about improving those customer experiences as demand for technology does nothing but increase. Terry, let's bring you into the conversation now. Speaking of customer centricity, we find that sustainability is very complicated, that a lot of large companies might have the resources to figure it out, but some of the smaller and mid-size companies might not quite have the boots on the street. What should some of the smaller organizations do, Terry, in your perspective to get started where sustainability is concerned? >> Well, I first off, appreciate the opportunity to be here and it's really terrific to have such a strong partnership with both HPE and WEI in order to deliver innovative solutions to customers. I think what AMD brings to the table is a real choice for customers that they haven't had. All of our personnel are really expert in articulating a differentiated value proposition that hits on a little bit what John talked about which is higher performance but with very, very efficient systems. And we've been offering those to the market since 2017 and we continued to get better. And now, there's an absolute opportunity to do more with same amount of servers, or do a workload with far fewer servers, that require far less energy. So, bringing in the AMD resources to assist the efforts of HPE and WEI, I would say, would be a good step for customers. >> Are there any Terry, sticking with you, any recommendations or tools particularly that you've seen really help customers get kicked off well, and strategically? >> Yeah, there actually are a couple that are readily available and I would encourage through WEI, customers take a close look. Two that really come to mind. We have a virtualization TCO tool that helps optimize configurations for virtual environments. And one of our newest tools is one that's focused on bare metal and greenhouse gas emissions TCO. So, really quantifying the impact to customers and expressed in terms that are familiar and help them achieve their sustainability initiatives. >> Excellent, that's great that those resources are available for customers, especially those smaller ones that might need a bit more guidance and handholding. Dave, let's come back to you. Let's now unpack the sustainability initiatives at WEI that you're really leveraging and implementing to meet the demands of customers and their future technology demands. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great question, what we're getting to. So, look, we're going to combine, the advancements in technology from an AMD and from an HPE into an architecture that's really usable for a customer. So, 10 years ago, we were all looking at consolidation ratios for virtualization as one driver to a more efficient IT environment. And so, look, we've done this over the last decade, where we've added as many virtual machines to a server as we can get and as many containers to a physical machine as we can get, and now we've got to find other ways to drive efficiency. And so, when we see technology from AMD that's maybe having the socket count from a CPU perspective with a 30 plus percent reduction in power consumption and heat output, that's huge. So, we're architecting these solutions, using that best of breed technology but also implementing technology that was previously consumed more by larger enterprise customers for that small and medium customer base that you mentioned earlier. And that is implementing infrastructure as a service as a way to more efficiently utilize IT resources. So, we'll design the right systems, we'll put them into a consumption model that allows us to dial up and down when we need to, as opposed to having to build oversized environments that consume too much power, that produce too much heat and that aren't really driving toward those sustainability initiatives. So, we want to change not only the technology but also the models of which we consume IT. That's how we're driving that forward with customers today. >> And Dave, another question for you. How are you seeing from a cultural perspective this be adopted and accepted across the customer base? 'Cause change management is challenging but we all know sustainability is a focus of pretty much every business on the planet. >> It is, but fortunately we've got good partners like AMD and HPE, so they make it easy for the channel to implement these things. If you take a look at HPE's GreenLake solutions, for instance. These are tool sets that allow us to go and easily implement that for customers and reduce that change or cost of change for them. In fact, it actually allows them to take the models that they're currently used to and yet still leverage that new consumption model that I just referred to. >> Got it, awesome, thank you. John, let's go back to you. There's a tremendous opportunity here for customers from a sustainability standpoint, across every industry. And I was looking at some data that HPE shared that said for example, 25% of compute in data centers is comatose. First of all, I think the description is brilliant. What are some of the outcomes that customers can expect in working with HPE and AMD and WEI in terms of better leveraging their technology investments today and in the future? >> Yeah, it's a great question. And we do see a tremendous amount of equipment in the average data center that's not doing any useful work. And so, comatose is a great name for that. We also see a tremendous amount of equipment that's being dramatically underutilized as well. So, when the three companies come together and share that expertise with the customer and the customer follows through on that you can expect a whole lot of things. So, you reduce over-provisioning, you have the IT assets in your infrastructure doing useful work for you. The second thing you you tend to see is utilization levels going up. So, where the average utilization level across compute today even in a virtualized or containerized environment is about 30%. You see that almost doubling, for example, in good scenarios where the customer has that equipment doing a tremendous amount of additional work, keeping them from needing to add additional assets to the infrastructure. So, all of that drives cost savings, both CapEx and OPEX, cost savings opportunities. It drives efficiency savings. If you have less equipment being more well utilized and better managed, you tend not to have over temperature situations or equipment that goes down for no explainable reason that then drives staff work to go find out and fix workloads that go down. In fact, many of our customers are measured on service level agreements. They want to keep that infrastructure running all the time to keep their customers happy as well. And finally, one that sometimes is missed is employee satisfaction. Technology companies are having a tough enough time finding and attracting and retaining employees to start with but those employees want to see how what they're doing contributes to purpose. So, as our customers can use these employees to do more productive work, show them how it connects to the purpose of their company and show them how it makes the world a better place at the same time, they can do a better job of holding on to those employees that they so value. >> That's such a great point, John, that you bring up that employee retention but also talent attraction and retention for your customers. Dave, back to you. Are you seeing more and more customers come to WEI, saying, "We have sustainability initiatives. "We can only partner with companies that are also really focused on this because we need to make sure that our employees are satisfied and that we can attract and retain customers." Is that something that you're seeing an increase of? >> Yeah, absolutely. So very often, we're asked to explain how we're implementing sustainability in our business, that the partners that we work with are also doing the same and I'll give you an example of that. So, we've been talking about IT efficiency and good utilization of IT equipment but let's not forget that life cycles of IT equipment result in that equipment leaving a customer site eventually. So, we've got to be responsible in the way that we handle that. And so, this is the area where WEI has put together programs to connect the sustainability aspect of IT recycling, if you will, with the social aspect of corporate social responsibility. And that is, what do we do with this stuff? So, we offer programs to customers where we say, "Hey, look, let's take back some of that IT equipment, there's value in this." It may be that we need to go and recycle this in a responsible way. And we can extract valuable components out of this that result in funds to do something with. Well, what can we do with those funds? Can we put those towards social programs? So, this is where we, again, tie together sustainability and social responsibility. We've been talking about data centers but this also extends to other IT devices. So, if we're pulling back laptops, as an example, from a customer environment, well, those may still have a useful life someplace. Can we bring those to disadvantaged communities and utilize those for educational purposes and other things? Again, this is how WEI connects our customers with these opportunities to enhance their CSR programs. >> Tremendous opportunities there for customers across every industry. Dave, sticking with you for a second. From a differentiation perspective, talk about what the partnership with HPE and AMD delivers WEI from a unique value prop perspective. >> Yeah, so we touched on it a little bit already, and that is, you've got the incredible technology from AMD and from HPE that work seamlessly together but is also focused on driving down the cost of computing. I mean, just the overall efficiency built into design of these solutions makes it easy for an IT consultant like us to build an efficient architecture. But it's not just the technology. It's also the models, or the IT provisioning and consumption models that are important. And again, that's where the relationship between HPE and WEI comes together, because we get to leverage some of these other programs. I mentioned before GreenLake, as an example. This gives us the opportunity to build that infrastructure as service model for our customers who would otherwise maybe go out to a hyperscaler for a similar solution. But as we know, most of our customers even small and medium businesses, can't move everything out to the cloud. They have to use their own data centers. They have to keep data on site and on-prem. So, building that model for them drives efficiency and quite honestly, that's the thing that they're looking for, it's driving cost savings, it's driving efficiency, it's aiding their CSR initiatives. >> Got it. Let's chat now about the strategic versus the tactical. Terry, I would like to get your feedback and then John, yours as well. We talked a little bit about this already but how do you help advise organizations that might be in that tactical mode, approaching sustainability from a tactical mode and really up level that to a strategy that's around sustainable IT? Terry, what are some of the things that you're seeing in the marketplace? Well, at AMD we're fortunate to be passionate about partnerships and sustainability. We're fortunate to work with companies of all shapes and sizes and in different geographies around the world. Some are a little bit more advanced in the way they think about this, but it really is becoming a strategic imperative for companies. And I think certain companies don't know exactly how to proceed. So, the opportunity to educate and open their eyes to the way that you can do both, you can meet your IT goals and objectives, but also do it in a very socially responsible and sustainable way, to me is a win-win. And we welcome the opportunity to just have those conversations. I think some customers are not necessarily understanding how much IT can really contribute to their ability to meet their current and future sustainability goals. And we look forward to having as many conversations as possible 'cause it goes in the category of just the right thing to do. If you can power your IT and do things that are good for the planet and good for all. >> That's a great point. It really is the right thing to do. John, just question, last question for you, is similar to what I asked Terry, but I would like to know where are your customer conversations when it comes to really looking at IT as a big driver of sustainability? Who in the organization really needs to be the spearheads around that initiative? >> Yeah, great question. Often we see customers have one organization that sometimes is a sustainability organization. Sometimes the facility's a real estate organization or sometimes IT is spearheading this and often doing that in isolation. To your point, we really need to think about this as a sustainable IT strategy and get all the right organizations involved together. So, for example, for us, after seeing many customers that didn't know how to develop this strategy, we wrote a workbook called "Six Steps For Implementing A Sustainable IT Strategy." And the steps are things like figure out what your company goals already are that you've made public to your customers then grab the right stakeholders and bring them together. For example, you know you're going to have cost savings, so have the finance team in the room, You know this is going to save utilities, have the real estate team in the room. You know it's going to generate a sustainability benefit, have the sustainability team involved so that they can quantify the benefit in a meaningful manner. Have the communication and marketing teams because when companies implement a sustainable IT strategy they have a great story that they can then tell their customers about how they're doing a better job from an efficiency perspective and from an environmental perspective as well. So, when you bring all of those stakeholders together you can have a much broader and deeper strategy. It becomes a strategic imperative. And when your institutional investors, if you're publicly traded, or your customers come asking about your programs, you're ready to answer those questions in a credible manner. >> Sounds like it really needs to truly be a collaborative effort across the organization. You mentioned John's story and that goes back to employee retention, talent attraction and retention for your companies and your customers as well. We could go off on that but we're almost out of time. So, I want to go back to Dave to take us home here. You walked us through what WEI is doing from a sustainability initiative perspective, the impetus to develop that. What are some of the things that we can expect to see on the horizon from WEI where sustainability is concerned? What are you excited about? >> Well, that's a good question. So, we're excited about how we can continue to deploy those infrastructure as a service models. That's the next step in the direction. How do we automate these things, and then how do we quantify them? So, you've got to build the environment but then you've got to be able to measure it. And that's another area where WEI really adds value to this whole solution set is how are we measuring these things in the long term and developing a program that extends beyond just the implementation of this, but through its entire life cycle and the value of it? Because if you can quantify the value and if you can show what the savings really is and how it's helping customers meet their sustainability goals, well, guess what? They're going to want to implement more of this So, it's good business, and that's what we're excited about, is that next mile of implementation after we developed the initial architecture. >> That measurement is key. It sounds like then it really becomes a flywheel of sustainability. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today talking about from your three perspectives and how you're partnering together to really enable businesses across any industry to develop a sustainable IT strategy that they can implement and then create a flywheel of optimization. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Thank you. >> All right, my pleasure for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. In a moment, John and Terry and I are going to be joined by Charles Mulrooney, global presales engineering manager at SHI and John Sahs, global presales technical consultant at SHI. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in global tech coverage. (upbeat music)

welcome back everyone to thecube's live coverage in san francisco for vmware explorer 2022 formerly vmworld i'm john furrier david live dave 12 years we've been covering this event formerly vmware first time in west now it's explore we've been in north we've been in south we've been in vegas multi-cloud is now the exploration vmware community is coming in john siegel svp at dell cube alumni dave mccraw vp at vmware guys thanks for coming back both cube alumni it's great to see you very senior organizations senior roles in the organizations of vmware and dell one year since the split great partnership continuing i mean some of the conversations we've been having over the past few years is that control plane the management layer making everything work together it's essentially been the multi-cloud hybrid cloud story what's the update what's how's the partnership look yeah i you know i just to start off i mean i would say i don't think our partnership's been any has ever been any better um if you look at you mention our vision very much a shared vision in terms of the multi-cloud world and i don't think we've ever had more joint innovation projects at one time i think we have over 40 now dave that are going on across multi-cloud ai cyber security uh modern applications and and uh you know here just at you just vmworld vmware explorer we have over 30 uh vmware sessions that are featuring dell um and this is i think more than we've ever had so look i think um there's a lot of momentum there and we're really looking forward to what's to come so you guys obviously spent a lot of time together when vmware was part of dell and then you've been it's been a year since the spin and then you codified i think it was a five-year agreement you know so you had some time to figure that out and then put it into paper so you just kind of quantified some of the stuff that's going on but now we're entering a yet another phase so that that that that agreement's probably more important than ever now i mean list in terms of getting it documented and an understanding right yeah that agreement really defines a framework for solution development and for go to market so we've been doing it and refining it for the last five years so now you know putting and codifying it into a written signed agreement it basically is instantiating what we've been doing that we know works uh where we can drive uh solution development we can drive deep architectural co-innovation together as well and as john said across multiple you know project and solution areas so we we've been talking to years to you know a lot of these strat guys guys like matt baker about things like you know you see aws do nitro and then of course project monterey and and i know that you guys have had a you know a big sort of input into that and so now to see it come to fruition is is huge because you know from our view it's the future of computing architectures how do you handle you know data rich applications ai applications that's what are your thoughts on here i couldn't agree more uh project monterey is a great example of how we're innovating together we just talked about i mean first of all it's all so we have vxrail which let's let's start there right we have over 19 000 joint customers right now we continue to innovate more and more on the vxrail architecture great example of that as our partnership with project monterey and taking essentially vsphere 8 and running it for the first time on an hci system directly on the dp used itself right on the dpus ability now to offload nsxt from from the cpus to the dpus uh hope you know in the short term first of all great benefits for customers in terms of better performance but as you just mentioned it's game changing in terms of laying the foundation for the future architectures that we plan on together helping out customers there's one other dynamic for you on is um and it's not unique to dell but dell's the biggest you know supply supplier partner etc but you're able to take vmware software and drive it through your business and and that enables you to get more subscription revenue and makes it stickier and that's a really important change from you know 10 years ago yeah and it's it's a combination as you know of dell software and vmware software together absolutely and i think what's with this is a game-changing innovation that you can run on top of our joint system vxrail if you will um and now what our customers can expect is life cycle automation of now you know the dpus as well as tanzu as well as everything else we layer on top of that core foundation that we have over 19 000 customers running today so i mean like that 19 000 number i want to get back up to the vx rail and you mentioned vsphere that's big news here this year vsphere 8 big release a lot of going on what's the hci angle you mentioned that what's in it for the customer what does that mean for the folks here because let's face it the vsphere aids got everyone in that they've all the v-sections are going going crazy right another vsphere release getting training they have the labs here what's it mean for the customers what's the value there with that hci solution with the gpus well first of all vsphere 8 as we know it has a lot of goodies in it but you know what what i think to me what's been most powerful about this is the ability to run vsphere 8 uh and and specifically on the dpus now you can run it it is open up all new possibilities now and so that nsxt that i mentioned you know running that on gpus opens up a whole new uh architecture now for our customers going forward and now really sets us up for modern distributed architecture for the future so like edge okay yeah and vsphere 8 brings in you know cloud connectivity as well so you know customers can run in a cloud disconnected mode they can run in a cloud connected mode so you know that's going to bring in the ability to do specialized things on security cycle management there's a whole series of services that can now be added as well as you know leveraging you know vcenter management capabilities so what's happening at the edge we had i think it was lows on hotel tech world right okay good not the other one um but so so that's got to be exploding now with that with that because it just changes the game for for these stores there's i mean retail uh manufacturing maybe you can give us an update on there's so much happening on the edge side as you know i mean that's where most of the a lot of the innovations happening right now is at the edge and a lot of the companies we talked to 8x right 8x expectation of increase in uh edge workloads over the next and the data challenge too and the data challenge is huge so you heard about the innovations with vsphere 8. in addition to that we just introduced today as well the smallest vx rail for the edge ever this thing is it's like think picture a couple eight and a half by 11 notebooks not much not much you know maybe a little wider than that but not much more um you know these these are stacked on top of each other these are you can rack and stack and mount these things anywhere and it also is the first aci system that has you know a built-in hardware witness so this helps set it up for environments that are you know network bandwidth constrained or have high high latency no longer an issue next gen app is going to want to have a local data server at the edge right and with compute there right high performance right right so now you're getting it across the wire yes you get racket stack a couple of these small things i mean they can they can fit into like a you know clark kent's briefcase right these things are so small um you want to do the analytics on site and return responses back you don't want to be moving massive data payloads off the egg so you got to have the right level of compute to run machine learning algorithms and and do the analytics type work that you want to do to make local decisions yeah i mean we just had david lithimon who was one of the keynote speakers here at the event and we've been talking about super cloud and multi-cloud meta cloud all the different versions of what we see as this next-gen and this brings up a point of like his advice to young people learn how multi-cloud learn about system architecture because if you can figure out how to put it together you're going to have to make more money anyway that this whole edge piece opens up huge challenges and opportunities around how do you configure these next-gen apps what does the ai look like what's the data architecture this is not like get some training curriculum online and you get you know 101 and you're getting a job no this is more complicated but with the hardware you guys make it easier so where's the complexity shift between having a powerful edge device like the vxrail with the vsphere what's the ec button on that like how do you guys what's the vision because this is going to be a major battleground this whole edge piece yeah it's going to be huge well i think when you look at the innovation that dell is bringing to market with technologies like outlander and then designing that into vxrail and then you combine that with our tonzu capabilities to manage development and deployment of applications this is about heterogeneous deployment and management at scale of applications with technologies like tons of mission control then deploying service mesh right for security being able to use sassy to be able to secure you know with cloud security over the wire so it's bringing together multiple technologies to deliver simplicity to the customer the ability to go one to many you know in terms of being able to deploy and manage and update whether that's a security patch or an application update and do that very rapidly at a low cost so the benefit with this solution now just putting this together is i can ship a box small and or stack them and essentially it's done remotely it's that's provision the provisioning issues not a truck roll as they say or professional services enabled you can just drop that out there and this is where the customers need to be yeah that absolutely is that the vision don't get that right exactly you don't you don't need the you don't need the skills yeah you don't need the specialized skills you don't need a lot of space you don't need you know high network bandwidth all these things right all these innovations that we're talking about here um really combined into really enabling a whole new whole new future here for edge is are you doing apex now is that i think thickest part sure part of yours okay so um is apex fitting into the to the edge how does it fit yeah i mean well first of all you know a lot of what we talked with apex is really about a consumption a way to ensure there's a common cloud experience wherever the data is and where the applications are and so absolutely edge fits into this as well and so we have we have common ways to consume our infrastructure today our joint infrastructure whether it's in the data center at the edge um or you know uh in the cloud usain ragu when he was on i said it was great keynote loved it one of the things that i didn't think there was enough of was security and he's like yeah we only had so much time but vmware is a very strong security story we heard a really strong security story at dell tech world i mean half the innovations and the new you know storage products were security and the new os's and it was impressive what what's how are you guys working together on security is that one of those let me give you a few key things you know our teams are working together at the engineer to engineer level you know reference architectures for zero trust as an example being able to look you know hardware root of trust up into the application layer right so we're looking at really defense in depth here you know i mentioned what we're doing with sassy right with cloud security capabilities so you really have to look at this from the edge to the core with the you know from a networking perspective getting the network the insights on things that maybe anomalies that may be happening on the network so using our network insight technology you know uh nsx and then being able to ultimately uh have a secure development pipeline as well i mean you we all know about the supply chain attacks that happen right and so being able to have a you know secure pipeline for development is critical for both of our companies working together i think the tan zoo and you mentioned the developer self-service that experience combined with kind of the power of the dell you know let's face it the boxes are awesome hardware matters and software matters so bringing that expertise together michael daley always used to say on thecube better together in respect to vmware and dell a lot of fruit has been born from that labor right specifically around and now when you add the tan zoo and you get vsphere you got the operational excellence you got the you got the performance and scale with the dell boxes and hardware and software and now you've got the tan zoo what's missing or is it all there now i mean where how would you how would you guys peg the progress bar is it like it's all rocking right now or or i'd say you're never done first of all but i you know i look at some of the innovations that we've brought to market recently where we've are combining and stacking these technologies into a more defense in-depth like solution you know bringing nsx onto vxrail so that you can flip a switch easily and light up the firewall the new plug-in yeah that's a great example simple simple um carbon black workload another example where we're taking carbon black technology that was typically on endpoints you know on pcs bringing that into the data center right and leveraging all the analytics and insights around you know being able to identify anomalies and then remediate those anomalies so we're seeing very good traction with those and the cloud native developers containers they're all native container working with compute and container storage object store in the cloud kubernetes we've embraced it yeah i mean yeah containers running containers and vms on the same infrastructure common way to manage it all i mean that that's been a big part of it as well obviously a lot of the focus that dell's bringing here as well is is the inability to run that stack easily right you heard the announcement on uh tanzu for kubernetes operators right earlier today tko we call it uh you know that running on vxrail now is really targeted at the i.t operator in allowing them to easily stand up a self-service developer devops environment on vxrail going forward and then a piece that might be invisible to them is back to monterey isolation right encryption and data moving you know absolutely storage the security the compute right the management right that's that's a complete and it's about reducing attack services as well right the security perspective as well when you when you're moving nsxt onto a dpu you're doing that as well so there's it takes the little things right at the end of the day security is a mindset up across both companies in terms of how we approach our architectures um and it's the you know a lot of times it's the little things as well that we make sure right so shared vision working at the engineering levels together for many many years know that you guys are validating more of that coming what's next take us through okay we're here 2022 we got super cloud multi-cloud hybrid full throttle right now it's hybrid's a steady state that's cloud operations infrastructure as code has happened it's happening what's next for you guys in the relationship can you share a little bit that you can if you can what we can expect what you see uh with monterrey is the start of a re-architecting of i.t infrastructure not just in the data center but also at the edge right these technologies will move out and be pervasive you know across i think edge to colo to core data center to cloud right and so that's a starting point now we're looking at memory tiering right i think we talked last time about capitola and memory tiering and you know being able to bring that forward uh being able to do more with confidential computing as an example right secure enclaves and confidential computing so you know a lot of this is focused around simplicity and security going forward and ease of management around take the heavy lifting away from the customer abstract that in offer the power and performance that's right and it's going to come down to delivering time to value for our customers you know can we cut that time to value by 25 50 percent so they can be in production faster yeah i think project monterey is something we'll be building on for a long time right i mean this is the start of a major new future architecture of these companies so if you had to pick one we have 40 initiatives that are joined together real literally project monterey is one of my favorites for sure in terms of what it's going to do not just for that common cloud experience but for the edge and and we talked a lot about the edge today and where that's headed you think it's going to explode up new apps i really do think so well it's going to put you in a new it's going to put in curve yeah absolutely right and operationally uh security wise um from a modern apps perspective i mean all it checks all the boxes and it's going to allow us to to help and take our existing customers on that journey as well what's great about this conversation we've been following both you guys for a long time and your companies and and technology upgrades and and the business impact and open source and all doing all this for customers but the wave that's coming we're seeing the expo hall here i mean it's people are really excited they're enthused they're committed highly confident that this this wave is coming they kind of see it people kind of seeing the fog lift they're seeing money making value creation people kind of feeling more comfortable but still a little nervous around you know what's coming next because it's still uncertainty but pretty good ecosystem i'd have to say that's pretty pretty interesting yeah a lot of them are excited about you know what they can do at the edge and how they can differentiate their businesses i mean that's right well congratulations guys thanks for coming on thecube and sharing the update thank you it more innovation it's not stopping here at vmware explorer dell and vm we're continuing to have that kind of relationship joint engineering it's all coming together and you can mix and match this and the stack but it's ultimately going to be cloud operations edge is the action of course hybrid cloud as well it's thecube thanks for watching [Music] you

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here live in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. Formerly got it. World. We've been to every world since 2010. Now is VMware Explorer. I'm John furier host with Dave ante with Dave lium here. He's the chief cloud strategy officer at Deloitte. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >>Thanks for having me. It's >>Epic keynote today on stage all seven minutes of your great seven minutes >>Performance discussion. Yes. Very, very, very, very quick to the order. I brought everybody up to speed and left. >>Well, Dave's great to have you on the cube one. We follow your work. We've been following for a long time. Thank you. A lot of web services, a lot of SOA, kind of in your background, kind of the old web services, AI, you know, samples, RSS, web services, all that good stuff. Now it's, it's now we're in kind of web services on steroids. Cloud came it's here. We're NextGen. You wrote a great story on Metacloud. You've been following the Supercloud with Dave. Does VMware have it right? >>Yeah, they do. Because I'll tell you what the market is turning toward. Anything that sit above and between the clouds. So things that don't exist in the hyperscaler, things that provide common services above the cloud providers are where the growth's gonna happen. We haven't really solved that problem yet. And so there's lots of operational aspects, security aspects, and the ability to have some sort of a brokering service that'll scale. So multi-cloud, which is their strategy here is not about cloud it's about things that exist in between cloud and making those things work. So getting to another layer of abstraction and automation to finally allow us to make use out of all these hyperscaler services that we're signing on today. Dave, >>Remember the old days back in the eighties, when we were young bucks coming into the business, the interoperability wave was coming. Remember that? Oh yeah, I got a deck mini computer. I got an IBM was gonna solve that unex. And then, you know, this other thing over here and lands and all and everything started getting into this whole, okay. Networking. Wasn't just coax. You started to see segment segments. Interoperability was a huge, what 10 year run. It feels like that's kind of like the vibe going on here. >>Yeah. We're not focused on having these things interop operate onto themselves. So what we're doing is putting a layer of things which allows them to interop operate. That's a different, that's a different problem to solve. And it's also solvable. We were talking about getting all these very distinct proprietary systems to communicate one to another and interate one to another. And that never really happened. Right? Cause you gotta get them to agree on interfaces and protocols. But if you put a layer above it, they can talk down to whatever native interfaces that are there and deal with the differences between the heterogeneity and abstract yourself in the complexity. And that's, that's kind of the different that works. The ability to kind of get everybody, you know, clunk their heads together and make them work together. That doesn't seem to scale couple >>And, and people gotta be motivated for that. Not many people might not >>Has me money. In other words has to be a business for them in doing so. >>A couple things I wanna follow up on from work, you know, this morning they used the term cloud chaos. When you talk to customers, you know, when they have multiple clouds, do they, are they saying to you, Hey, we have cloud chaos are, do they have cloud chaos? And they don't know it or do they not have cloud chaos? What's the mix. >>Yeah. I don't think the word chaos is used that much, but they do tell me they're hitting a complexity wall, which you do here out there as a term. So in other words, they're getting to a point where they can't scale operations to deal with a complexity and heterogeneity that they're, that they're bringing into the organization because using multiple clouds. So that is chaotic. So I guess that, you know, it is another way to name complexity. So there's so many services are moving from a thousand cloud services, under management to 3000 cloud services under management. They don't have the operational team, the skill, skill levels to do it. They don't have the tooling to do it. That's a wall. And you have to be able to figure out how to get beyond that wall to make those things work. So >>When, when we had our conversation about Metacloud and Supercloud, we we've, I think very much aligned in our thinking. And so now you've got this situation where you've got these abstraction layers, but, and there, but my question is, are we gonna have multiple abstraction layers? And will they talk to each other or are standards emerging? Will they be able to, >>No, we can't have multiple abstraction layers else. We just, we don't solve the problem. We go from complexity of exists at the native cloud levels to complexity of exists, that this thing we're dealing with to deal with complexity. So if you do that, we're screwing up. We have to go back and fix it. So ultimately this is about having common services, common security, layers, common operational layers, and things like that that are really reduced redundancy within the system. So instead of having a, you know, five different security layers and five different cloud providers, we're layering one and providing management and orchestration capabilities to make that happen. If we don't do that, we're not succeeding. >>What do you think about the marketplace? I know there's a lot of things going on that are happening around this. Wanna get your thoughts on obviously the industry dynamics, vendors preserving their future. And then you've got customers who have been leveraging the CapEx, goodness of say Amazon and then have to solve their whole distributed environment problem. So when you look at this, is it really solving? Is it is the order of operations first common layer abstraction because you know, it seems like the vendor, I won't say desperation move, but like their first move is we're gonna be the control plane or, you know, I think Cisco has a vision in their mind that no, no we're gonna have that management plane. I've heard a lot of people talking about, we're gonna be the management interface into something. How do you see that playing out? Because the order of operations to do the abstraction is to get consensus, right, right. First not competition. Right. So how do you see that? What's your reaction to that? And what's your observation. >>I think it's gonna be tough for the people who are supplying the underlying services to also be the orchestration and abstraction layers, because they're, they're kind of conflicted in making that happen. In other words, it's not in their best interest to make all these things work and interoperate one to another, but it's their best interest to provide, provide a service that everybody's going to leverage. So I see the layers here. I'm certainly the hyperscalers are gonna play in those layers and then they're welcome to play in those layers. They may come up with a solution that everybody picks, but ultimately it's about independence and your ability to have an objective way of, of allowing all these things to communicate together and driving this, driving this stuff together, to reduce the complexity again, to reduce. >>So a network box, for instance, maybe have hooks into it, but not try to dominate it >>Or that's right. Yeah, that's right. I think if you're trying to own everything and I get that a lot when I write about Supercloud and, and Metacloud they go, well, we're the Metacloud, we're the Supercloud you can't be other ones. That's a huge problem to solve. I know you don't have a solution for that. Okay. It's gonna be many different products to make that happen. And the reality is people who actually make that work are gonna have to be interdependent independent of the various underlying services. They're gonna, they can support them, but they really can't be them. They have to be an interate interop. They have to interoperate with those services. >>Do you, do you see like a w three C model, like the worldwide web consortium, remember that came out around 96, came to the us and MIT and then helped for some of those early standards in, in, in the internet, not DNS, but like the web, but DNS was already there and internet was already there, but like the web standards HTML kind of had, I think wasn't really hardcore get you in the headlock, but at least it was some sort of group that said, Hey, intellectually be honest, you see that happening in this area. >>I hope not. And here's >>Why not. >>Yeah. >>Here's, here's why the reality is is that when these consortiums come into play, it freezes the market. Everybody waits for the consortium to come up with some sort of a solution that's gonna save the world. And that solution never comes because you can't get these organizations through committee to figure out some sort of a technology stack that's gonna be working. So I'd rather see the market figure that out. Not a consortium when >>I, you mean the ecosystem, not some burning Bush. >>Yeah. Not some burning Bush. And it just hasn't worked. I mean, if it worked, it'd be great. And >>We had a, an event on August 9th, it was super cloud 22 and we had a security securing the super cloud panel. And one of my was a great conversation as you remember, John, but it was kind of depressing in that, like we're never gonna solve this problem. So what are you seeing in the security front? You know, it seems to like that's a main blocker to the Metacloud the Supercloud >>Yeah. The reality is you can't build all the security services in, in the Metacloud. You have to basically leverage the security services on the native cloud and leverage them as they exist. So this idea that we're gonna replace all of these security services with one layer of abstraction, that's gonna provide the services. So you don't need these underlying security systems that won't work. You have to leverage the native security systems, native governance, native operating interfaces, native APIs of all the various native clouds using the terms that they're looking to leverage. And that's the mistake. I think people are going to make, you don't need to replace something that's working. You just may need to make it easier to >>Use. Let's ask Dave about the, sort of the discussion that was on Twitter this morning. So when VMware announced their, you know, cross cloud services and, and the whole new Tansu one, three, and, and, and, and aria, there was a little chatter on Twitter basically saying, yeah, but VMware they'll never win the developers. And John came and said, well, hi, hang on. You know, if, if you've got open tools and you're embracing those, it's really about the ops and having standards on the op side. And so my question to you is, does VMware, that's >>Not exactly what I said, but close enough, >>Sorry. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. You can fine tune it, but, but does VMware have to win the developers or are they focused on kind of the right areas that whole, you know, op side of DevOps >>Focused on the op side, cuz that's the harder problem to solve. Developers are gonna use whatever tools they need to use to build these applications and roll them out. And they're gonna change all the time. In other words, they're gonna change the tools and technologies to do it in the supply chain. The ops problem is the harder problem to solve the ability to get these things working together and, and running at a certain point of reliability where the failure's not gonna be there. And I think that's gonna be the harder issue and doing that without complexity. >>Yeah. That's the multi-cloud challenge right there. I agree. The question I want to also pivot on that is, is that as we look at some of the reporting we've done and interviews, data and security really are hard areas. People are tune tuning up DevOps in the developer S booming, everyone's going fast, fast and loose. Shifting left, all that stuff's happening. Open source, booming Toga party. Everyone's partying ops is struggling to level up. So I guess the question is what's the order of operations from a customer. So a lot of customers have lifted and shift. The, some are going all in on say, AWS, yeah, I got a little hedge with Azure, but I'm not gonna do a full development team. As you talk to customers, cuz they're the ones deploying the clouds that want to get there, right? What's the order of operations to do it properly in your mind. And what's your advice as you look at as a strategy to, to do it, right? I mean, is there a playbook or some sort of situational, you know, sequence, >>Yes. One that works consistently is number one, you think about operations up front and if you can't solve operations, you have no business rolling out other applications and other databases that quite frankly can't be operated and that's how people are getting into trouble. So in other words, if you get into these very complex architectures, which is what a multicloud is, complex distributed system. Yeah. And you don't have an understanding of how you're gonna operationalize that system at scale, then you have no business in building the system. You have no business of going in a multicloud because you are going to run into that wall and it's gonna lead to a, an outage it's gonna lead to a breach or something that's gonna be company killing. >>So a lot of that's cultural, right. Having, having the cultural fortitude to say, we're gonna start there. We're gonna enforce these standards. >>That's what John CLE said. Yeah. CLE is famous line. >>Yeah, you're right. You're right. So, so, so what happens if the, if that as a consultant, if you, you probably have to insist on that first, right? Or, I mean, I don't know, you probably still do the engagement, but you, you're gonna be careful about promising an outcome aren't you, >>You're gonna have to insist on the fact they're gonna have to do some advanced planning and come up with a very rigorous way in which they're gonna roll it out. And the reality is if they're not doing that, then the advice would be you're gonna fail. So it's not a matter of when it's, when it's gonna happen. We're gonna, but at some point you're gonna fail either. Number one, you're gonna actually fail in some sort of a big disastrous event or more likely or not. You're gonna end up building something that's gonna cost you $10 million more a month to run and it's gonna be underoptimized. And is >>That effective when you, when you say that to a client or they say, okay, but, or do they say yes, you're >>Right. I view my role as a, someone like a doctor and a lawyer. You may not want to hear what I'm telling you. But the thing is, if I don't tell you the truth and I'm not doing my job as a trusted advisor. And so they'll never get anything but that from us, you know, as a firm and the reality is they can make their own decisions and will have to help them, whatever path they want to go. But we're making the warnings in place to make. >>And, and also also situationally it's IQ driven. Are they ready? What's their makeup. Are they have the kind of talent to execute. And there's a lot of unbeliev me. I totally think agree with on the op side, I think that's right on the money. The question I want to ask you is, okay, assume that someone has the right makeup of team. They got some badass people in there, coding away, DevOps, SREs, you name it. Everyone lined up platform teams, as they said today on stage, all that stuff. What's the CXO conversation at the boardroom that you, you have around business strategy. Cuz if you assume that cloud is here and you do things right and you get the right advisors in the next step is what does it transform my business into? Because you're talking about a fully digitalized business that converges it's not just, it helps you run an app back office with some terminal it's full blown business edge app business model innovation is it that the company becomes a cloud on their own and they have scale. And they're the super cloud of their category servicing a power law of second place, third place, SMB market. So I mean, Goldman Sachs could be the service provider cloud for financial services maybe. Or is that the dream? What, what's the dream for the, the, the CXO staff take us through the, >>What they're trying to do is get a level of automation with every able to leverage best breed technology to be as innovative as they possibly can. Using an architecture that's near a hundred percent optimized. It'll never be a hundred percent optimized. Therefore it's able to run, bring the best value to the business for the least amount of money. That's the big thing. If they want to become a cloud, that's, that's not a, not necessarily a good idea. If they're finance company be a finance company, just build these innovations around how to make a finance company be innovative and different for them. So they can be a disruptor without being disrupted. I see where see a lot of companies right now, they're gonna be exposed in the next 10 years because a lot of these smaller companies are able to weaponize technology to bring them to the next level, digital transformations, whatever, to create a business value. That's gonna be more compelling than the existing player >>Because they're on the CapEx back of Amazon or some technical innovation. Is that what the smaller guys, what's the, what's the lever that beats the >>It's the ability to use whatever technology you need to solve your issues. So in other words, I can use anything that exists on the cloud because it's part of the multi-cloud I'm I able to find the services that I need, the best AI system, the best database systems, the fastest transaction processing system, and assemble these syncs together to solve more innovative problems in my competitor. If I'm able to do that, I'm gonna win the game. So >>It's a buffet of technology. Pick your yes, your meal, come on, >>Case spray something, this operations, first thing in my head, remember Alan NA, when he came in the Cub and he said, listen, if you're gonna do cloud, you better change the operating model or you you're gonna make, you know, you'll drop millions to the bottom line. He was at CIO of Phillips at the time. You're not gonna drop billions. And it's all about, you know, the zeros, right? So do you find yourself in a lot of cases, sort of helping people rearchitect their operating model as a function of, of, of what cloud can, can enable? >>Yeah. Every, every engagement that we go into has operating model change op model changes, and typically it's gonna be major surgery. And so it's re reevaluating the skill sets, reevaluating, the operating model, reevaluating the culture. In fact, we have a team of people who come in and that's all they focus on. And so it used to be just kind of an afterthought. We'd put this together, oh, by the way, I think you need to do this and this and this. And here's what we recommend you do. But people who can go in and get cultural changes going get the operating models systems, going to get to the folks where they're gonna be successful with it. Reality. If you don't do that, you're gonna fail because you're not gonna have the ability to adapt to a cloud-based a cloud-based infrastructure. You can leverage this scale. >>David's like a masterclass here on the cube at VMware explore. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for spending the valuable time. Just what's going on in your world right now, take a quick minute to plug what's going on with you. What are you working on? What are you excited about? What what's happening, >>Loving life. I'm just running around doing, doing things like this, doing a lot of speaking, you know, still have the blog on in info world and have that for the last 12 years and just loving the fact that we're innovating and changing the world. And I'm trying to help as many people as I can, as quickly as I can. What's >>The coolest thing you've seen this year in terms of cloud kind of either weirdness coolness or something that made you fall outta your chair. Wow. That >>Was cool. I think the AI capabilities and application of AI, I'm just seeing use cases in there that we never would've thought about the ability to identify patterns that we couldn't identify in the past and do so for, for the good, I've been an AI analyst. It was my first job outta college and I'm 60 years old. So it's, it's matured enough where it actually impresses me. And so we're seeing applications >>Right now. That's NLP anymore. Is it? >>No, no, not list. That's what I was doing, but it's, we're able to take this technology to the next level and do, do a lot of good with it. And I think that's what just kind of blows me on the wall. >>Ah, I wish we had 20 more minutes, >>You know, one, one more masterclass sound bite. So we all kind of have kids in college, David and I both do young ones in college. If you're coming outta college, CS degree or any kind of smart degree, and you have the plethora of now what's coming tools and unlimited ways to kind of clean canvas up application, start something. What would you do if you were like 22? Right now, >>I would focus on being a multi-cloud architect. And I would learn a little about everything. Learn a little about at the various cloud providers. And I would focus on building complex distributed systems and architecting those systems. I would learn about how all these things kind of kind of run together. Don't learn a particular technology because that technology will ultimately go away. It'll be displaced by something else, learn holistically what the technologies is able to do and become the orchestrator of that technology. It's a harder problem to solve, but you'll get paid more for it. And it'll be more fun job. >>Just thinking big picture, big >>Picture, how everything comes together. True architecture >>Problems. All right, Dave is on the queue masterclass here on the cube. Bucha for Dave ante Explorer, 2022. Live back with our next segment. After this short break.

>>The >>Cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by >>HPE. Hi everybody. Welcome back to day three, the Cube's continuous coverage wall to wall coverage of HPE. Discover 2022. My name is Dave Lanta. I'm here with John furrier. Dave McGraw is here. He's the vice president in the office of the CTO at VMware. And he's joined by Scott. We, the vice president and CTO of global sales for Hewlett Packard enterprise. And we're gonna talk tech, we're gonna talk integration. Co-creation gens. Welcome to the cube. >>Thank you so much, >>Scott, let me, let me ask you a question on the Scott side on the HP, we had the sales executives on the leaders on the sales side. You're on the CTO side with customers. You're in the front lines with customers green. Lake's got traction. I got this 1600 plus customers, 70 services we heard. And just the beginning, when you're out front of customers, you've got the old HPE now the new HPE kind of developing, what are they talking to you guys about? Cause now you have this cloud layer. I call it cloud operations, architecture shift. Yeah. What is the main conversation that you're involved in? >>I think it's driven by fundamentally that customers want to consume differently, right there workloads are ever evolving. You guys have evolved to meet those and since their consumption methods have changed on how they want and right. A lot of it's agility and, and speed of business right. Has, has dramatically shifted. So I think you'll see HPE GreenLake, you know, obviously as the cloud that comes to you, try to meet the problem where the cloud experience is needed. And I think that's the fundamental shift we've seen. I spent a lot of time with customers here at this conference. And as we've moved from cloud first to cloud smart to cloud everywhere, we're sitting in the intersection of cloud ever and delivering the experience together. And I think that's the heart of most of the conversations that are going on. >>Well, VMware, you guys are on, on a cloud. You guys shifted up with the cloud play. That's accelerated the VMware proposition. Now we have yesterday, we were talking to the city, the storage folks, they're provisioning single pane of glass or storage to customers. And whether they wanna pipe it to S3 or develop at the edge, doesn't matter. It's one console. Yeah. That's brand new. That's shipping. >>Yeah. And you know, a lot of it's driven too. I think the days of trap silos of resources that support one line of business are over. So we're talking about cloud agility everywhere, right. And to be able to embrace the cloud in all the locations. Right. And you kind of see folks move beyond just like there's the cloud, it's everywhere. It's the cloud. And so things like storage and fundamental compute and fundamental network operations that we're working on together, I think are where the customers expect us to be. We no longer can just show up. We have to show up and solve and solve before their needs. And I think that's a unique shift in the experience that's going >>On. So when you go back to, you know, Antonio four years ago now said, okay, we're all in. Yeah. On as a service. And so when you do that, you say, okay, we're gonna, we have services. They're gonna help do that. We have financial models that we can take to market immediately. So let's start there. And I would imagine take, so take us back. That's the point at which, you know, you're, you got email, phone ring, whatever let's integrate from an engineering standpoint go yeah. You know, as fast as you can. So what did that mean in terms of an engineer from an engineering perspective between HPE and, and VMware take us through that progression. >>Yeah. No, thanks for the question in your spot on it started with flexible financing models around metered usage. That was sort of the need at the time to now the expectation of engineered integrated solutions where customers don't wanna be in the system integration business anymore. And that requires engineering right. Requires deep innovation partnership to evolve to where the customer's headed, like before they've thought about it. And you'll see, you know, what we've done with vCloud foundation together and the integration within the HP GreenLake ecosystem, what we're doing with unified hybrid cloud views of what's going on, I think requires deep innovation things we're doing with other projects that we're gonna talk about today. Like Monterey capital thunder, our deep integrative innovation projects, where we've got together to try to solve a big problem cross industry that our customers are expecting us to do. And I think that speaks to the spirit of our long partnership together too. It's a business partnership. Of course it's a customer partnership to solve, but it's an innovation partnership. >>I gotta, I gotta ask about the, um, hybrid, obviously hybrids, the steady state. We're all seeing that now multi-cloud is being kicked around, but it's not, multi-cloud in the sense of workload portability so much. It's more of hybrid stitched together. Um, but it's coming fast with a data plane and yeah. The fabric and control planes. Uh, VMware, you guys are talking heavy about cross cloud or multicloud. Absolutely. So this is now brings up the old school interoperability question, right? So GreenLake sits here on premise. You guys have the edge, you get public cloud together. Where's the cross cloud come in. Where are customers doing when they think about cross cloud or, or multicloud? What is that conversation? Is it, Hey, I got Azure cause I got office and teams and I got Amazon over here and I got my on premise edge. Are they moving towards just being agnostic on cloud or is what's the environment? What, what are you crossing in the cloud? What does that mean across the cloud? Can >>You, I mean, from, from our perspective at VMware on premises, it's VMware cloud foundation, having that available, it's a VMware cloud instance, full STD STDC stack, uh, that is interoperable with our VMware cloud instances at the hyperscalers. And so for us, it's really about putting the management and control planes around that so that customers can easily determine where they wanna place workloads and when they need to burst, they need to scale up scale down. They have the flexibility and we wanna make sure all of these capabilities are available with HPE >>Going forward. What's interesting is that, you know, with, with GreenLake, what I like about what I'm seeing is is that, um, the leveling up of the cloud operation model, it's always been DevOps. We've always saw dev stack ops, clearly being operationally with cloud now on premise and edge with public cloud, it's full end to end operational cloud. If you wanna call it that, what is a key technical issue the customers need to do to get that in place? Is it to be DevOps, is that have cloud native applications, um, what kind of managed services, what's the makeup of that operating model for cloud look like? >>Yeah. I think if you talk to any enterprise commercial account, a top account, they'll they'll, if you, they think about how they run their functions, right. And you got, and you spoke to one of them, you have it ops at the bottom, it's a layer cake, right? You have it ops, everybody's deeply looking for AI ops that can remediate and orchestrate and you guys are on that journey as we are, as you move up to devs and dev SecOps, cuz security's critical, you got financial ops cuz we know economic value matters all the way clear up to cloud ops and Mo ops. What we're talking about is building hybrid operating model cause hybrid, it is simplified it where you're out of the stack, we're doing that together as partners and hybrid cloud is multiple consumption methods, but an operating model is encompass encompassing, cyber resiliency, compliance, economic, operational control. >>That's what we're built and edges in there as well. Right? Folks is, and it's not OT and it touching that's happening too, as we build edge tax, but folks need a simplified way. And as you saw in a lot of announcements here, our job was to bridge the cloud locations, right? So the customer didn't have to back to the portability statement you made, we announced a lot here that will allow you to float back and forth. So you have choice, choice and control control is the me is what every customer wants and they want the right workload at the right place at the right time at the right economic with the right capability. So I think that's in our mission together. Right? So, and >>A big part of engineering obviously is, is futures and roadmap. Yeah. Thought you mentioned Monterey cap thunder, you know, Monterey's kind of the smart Nick. One of the mega trends in the industry is Silicon diversity that handle all these new workloads to help with the edge. You know, capital is like the VSAN of memory as I, I would describe it. It obviously fits in there as well. So talk a little bit about the engineering roadmap, whatever you can share with us and how you guys are working together on that. Yeah. >>Yeah. I mean, those are three key projects for us. So there's constant interaction and integration with the HPE engineering team and the VMware team to make sure we bring those solutions to market with full capability. And for us, ultimately it's taking that technology and having it available in a VMware cloud context so that customers can have a, a consistent experience on premises running VMware cloud running with HPE GreenLake and then two are various VMware cloud suppliers around the world. And it's not just the hyperscalers, right? There's thousands of VMware cloud, uh, you know, partners that we work with manage service providers across the board. So it's, it's a very significant network of cloud. And you know, being consistent allows for mobility of workloads allows for consistency and skill sets for it operators as well. Mm-hmm >><affirmative> yeah. I wanna get into that, um, manage service trend around skill sets, but yeah, I have a, the number one thing that we've got in our, my notes here on multi-cloud challenges and I wanna get your reaction to it real quick, inconsistent infrastructure, API database network, and security constructs are different by cloud. How do you guys view that? And when you go to customers and they say, well, I got APIs that are different. I got different security constructs. What do I do? What does that, how do you answer that, that, that, that objection. >>Well, it's, it's a great call out cuz it is still the ongoing challenge, right? To gets to some of the portability, some of unified model and how they treat resources and consumption. Right? And so we're, we've all gotten together as an industry. You'll see purposely that the hyperscalers are all here at, at the conference, right? We're working on deep integration with all of our partners to make sure the customer doesn't have to. And I think it does extend to the different security models are troubling for customers. We're all working hard on unified security models as well. It's not just a developer saying, I like this set of APIs anymore, right? Or this framework customers need to run tier zero tier one, tier three applications when it really comes down to it and we need to create that unified model together. So, and I think that's really what the, the spirit or the embodiment of hybrid really is. >>When you talk to any customer, who's running a big operation, they're running in that model, right? They're not just doing cool. They want operationally simplicity. And I think you'll see these, these things we're engineering together are going after some of the hard problems, applications are hungry or all the time customers need more and more resources. And I think we would all agree. We've spent a lot of time in industry together when we're all working on sort of systems of record. What I call the shift ride effect is happening. Now we're in systems of interaction and systems of engagement out at the edge. That's the creation point of data. We need to be able to have that unified model all the way through the data path for the customer so they can monetize business value. >>And the data model is coming together. That's right. Where all three of those types of work that's right. There's two iconic names. And the other thing is that their trusted names and you're right, you're solving some of those hard problems making it simpler, but also you people trust that if something goes wrong, you're gonna be able to recover. So guys. >>Yeah. And I, and I'll tell you on the security front, you know, we've worked closely together here. If you look at, you know, VMware strategy of intrinsic security, it's really around going back to the development of our products, making sure there's a secure bill of materials, working with these guys on route of trust. Right? Making sure there's a full stack, uh, solution for our customers. Ultimately >>That's a whole nother cube segment that's bombs and shifting left and supply chain. Absolutely >>Shifting game. Absolutely. Right. Shifting >>Lift we're >>Shifting. Right guys. Awesome story. Congrats on the collaboration. Really appreciate your time in the cube. Thank you so >>Much. Thank you so >>Much. All right. You're very welcome. Okay, John and I will be back right after this short break. You're watching the Cube's coverage of HPE discover 2022 from Las Vegas, right back.

(upbeat music) >> theCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 22, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. >> Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Towns along with Paul Gillon, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle. Welcome Paul. >> Thank you Keith, pleasure to work with you. >> We're going to have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time KubeCon attendees, is this your first conference? >> It is my first KubeCon and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about, what the Cloud was, what the Cloud was going to do and how we were going to integrate multiple Clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here this has become the dominant trend in Enterprise Architecture right now how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that transparent Cloud that has been so elusive. >> It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a few dozen people, to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with 1000s of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle so to speak, this elusive concept of multicloud. >> And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. The many of them are only two or three years old, you don't see the big dominant computing players with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired, there'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think dramatically over the next couple or three years but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they requested. >> Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CRO, Chief Revenue Officer. >> That's right. >> Chief Marketing Officer of Spectrum Cloud. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So let's talk about this big ecosystem, Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> Solve problem? >> Well the dream is... Well, first of all applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customers about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in along comes containerization which helps you innovate more quickly? And certainly a dominant technology there is Kubernetes. And the question is, how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running? Because everywhere has pluses and minuses. >> So you know what, the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is, runs on my laptop? >> Yeah. >> I can push it to any Cloud, any platforms. >> That's right, that's right. >> Where's the gap? Where are we in that phase? Like talk to me about scale? Is it that simple? >> Well, that is actually the problem is that today, while the technology is the dominant containerization technology in orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user, it really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so was these very expensive highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together, what is a typical 20 layer stack, to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale? So we've gone from sort of DIY Developer Centric to all right, now how do I manage this at scale? >> Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of Cloud Native Technologies. And you who is going to integrate that all that stuff, piece that stuff together? Obviously, you have a role in that. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >> We see a recognition of that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control? And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >> So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is Kubernetes an AIOps or an ops task or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >> Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers, components, you just want all those components to work together, you don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like Spectra Cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >> So help paint this picture for us. I get AKS, EKS, Anthos, all of these distributions OpenShift, the Tanzu, where's Spectra Cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros, I thought distro was the thing just like Linux has different distros, Randy said different distros. >> That actually is the irony, is that sort of the age of debating the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now how do I again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into scale? How do I move it into deploy at scale to be able to manage ongoing at scale to be able to innovate at-scale, to allow engineers as I said, use the coolest tools but still have technical guardrails that the enterprise knows, they'll be in control of. >> What does at-scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >> Well, I think it's interesting because we think scale's different because we've all been in the industry and it's frankly, sort of boring old word. But today it means different things, like how do I automate the deployment at-scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment, from either a virtualized or bare metal data center, Cloud, or today Edge is really big, where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to the source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it-scale, you want to manage at-scale, you want to make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but ITOps wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at-scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago when we started Spectra Cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem, today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial all version in a different rates, it becomes an insurmountable problem, unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility, control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a scaled operation. >> So Dave, I'm a little challenged here, because I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Flexibility, control. >> Yes. >> In order to achieve control, I need complexity, in order to choose flexibility, I need t-shirt, one t-shirt fits all and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't compute. >> Well, that's the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet ITOps, wants to be able to make sure that there are guardrails. And so with some of today's technologies, like Spectra Cloud, it is, you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research, and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three IT executives said, you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance, how do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but ITOps the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions, but in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's really where the industry is today. >> Enterprise , enterprise CIOs, do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors, most of these companies, very small startups, our enterprises are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies? Or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the MicrosoftS to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >> I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday, as a part of Edge day here at the event, we had GE Healthcare as one of our customers telling their story, and they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment, X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans, and they're starting to treat those as Edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like Spectra Cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The Edge is an interesting thought but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >> So let's talk about the Edge a little, you kind of opened it up there. How should customers think about the Edge versus the Cloud Data Center or even bare metal? >> Actually it's a... Well bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. But we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes, we've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing, and then we've had orchestration developing but they haven't really come together very well. Lately, we're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra Cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together, making bare metal much more approachable to the enterprise. Edge is interesting, because it seems pretty obvious, you want to push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI inferencing, or IoT or anything like that, you don't want to worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the Edge as if it's almost like a Cloud, where all I worry about is the app. So really, the Edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-Cloud sort of motif where I want these Edge devices to require low IT resources, to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management, patch management, really act like a Cloud. And we're seeing this as very popular now. And I just used the GE Healthcare example of that, imagine a CAT scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an Edge device and it's doing medical imagery which is very intense in terms of data, you want to be able to process it quickly and accurately, as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider is possible. >> So let's talk about that in some level of details, we think about kind of Edge and these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there, or we looking at something talking back to the Cloud? Where does special Cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world simpler? >> Sure. Well we announced our Edge Kubernetes, Edge solution at a big medical conference called HIMMS, months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application, and then you can de you can design this declarative model this cluster API, but beyond Cluster profile which determines which additional application services you need and the Edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power, plug in the communications, it registers the Edge device, it automates the deployment of the full stack and then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving Edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very easy. No IT resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all automated. >> But there's so many different types of Edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. I mean that seems, like a much more complex environment, just calling it the Edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is 1000s of different devices, that you have to run your applications on how are you dealing with that? >> So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like, we don't want to debate about which OS you want to use. The truth is, you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll want to make. And so the key is, how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do, is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >> And who's... >> So... >> I'm sorry Keith, who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the Edge device. >> We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack, all the application services and the application itself on that device. >> So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that. But, provisioning is getting to the point that is a solve problem. Day two. >> Yes. >> Like you just mentioned HIMMS, highly regulated environments. How does Spectra Cloud helping with configuration management, change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >> Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy, all the way to day two, which is about access control, security, it's about ongoing versioning in a patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. But you're right, like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works, it's always up to the latest level have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >> Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two ops and I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just as we've gotten past, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod, to how do I actually operate IT? >> Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say. >> Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the Edge has some very unique requirements, you want very small form factors, typically, you want low IT resources, it has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't want to send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >> Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on theCUBE, you're now KubeCon, you've not been on before? >> I have actually, yes its... But I always enjoy it. >> Great conversation. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube is back at Vemo 2022. I was happy to be live. Dave ante, Dave Nicholson and Dave Russell three Daves. Dave is the vice president of enterprise strategy at Veeam. Great to see you again, my friend. Thanks for coming >>On. Uh, it's always a pleasure. And Dave, I can remember your name. I can't remember >>Your name as well. <laugh> so wow. How many years has it been now? I mean, add on COVID is four years now. >>Yeah, well, three, three solid three. Yeah, Fallon blue. Uh, last year, Miami little secret. We're gonna go there again next year. >>Okay, so you joined Veeam >>Three. Oh, me four. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. Four is four, right? Okay. Wow. >>Um, time flies, man. >>Interesting. What your background, former analyst analyze your time at Veeam and the market and the changes in the customer base. What, what have you seen? What are the big takeaways? Learnings? >>Yeah. You know, what's amazing to me is we've done a lot more research now, ourselves, right? So things that we intuitively thought, things that we experienced by talking to customers, and of course our partners, we can now actually prove. So what I love is that we take the exact same product and we go down market up market. We go across geographies, we go different verticals and we can sell that same exact product to all constituencies because the differences between them are not that great. If it was the three Dave company or the 3m company, what you're looking for is reliable recovery, ease of use those things just transcend. And I think there used to be a time when we thought enterprise means something very different than mid-market than does SMB. And certainly your go to market plans are that way, but not the product plans. >>So the ransomware study, we had Jay buff on earlier, we were talking about it and we just barely scratched the surface. But how were you able to get people to converse with you in such detail? Was it, are you using phone surveys? Are you, are, are you doing web surveys? Are you doing a combination? Deep >>Dives? Yeah. So it was web based and it was anonymous on both ends, meaning no one knew VE was asking the questions. And also we made the promise that none of your data is ever gonna get out, not even to say a large petroleum company, right. Everything is completely anonymized. And we were able to screen people out very effectively, a lot of screener questions to make sure we're dealing with the right person. And then we do some data integrity checking on the back end. But it's amazing if you give people an opportunity, they're actually very willing to tell you about their experience as long as there's no sort of ramification about putting the company or themselves at risk. >>So when I was at IDC, we did a lot of surveys, tons of surveys. I'm sure you did a lot of surveys at Gartner. And we would look at vendor surveys like, eh, well, this kind of the questions are rigged or it's really self-serving. I don't sense that in your surveys, you you've, you've always, you've still got that independent analyst gene. Is that, I mean, it's gotta be, is it by design? Is it just happen that ransomware is a topic that just sort of lends itself to that. Maybe you could talk about your philosophy there. >>Yeah. Well, two part answer really, because it's definitely by design. We, we really want the information. I mean, we're using this to fuel or inform our understanding of the market, what we should build next, what we should message next. So we really want the right data. So we gotta ask the right questions. So Jason, our colleague, Julie, myself, we work really hard on trying to make sure we're not leading the witness down a certain path. We're not trying to prove our own thesis. We're trying to understand what the market really is thinking. And when it comes to ransomware, we wanna know what we don't know, meaning we found a few surprises along the way. A lot of it was confirmational, but that's okay too. As long as you can back that up, cuz then it's not just Avenger's opinion. Of course, a vendor that says that they can help you do something has data that says, they think you uni have a problem with this, but now we can actually point to it and have a more interesting kind of partnership conversation about if you are like 1000 other enterprises globally, this may be what you're seeing. >>And there are no wrong answers there. Meaning even if they say that is absolutely not what we're seeing. Great. Let's have that conversation that's specific to you. But if you're not sure where to start, we've got a whole pool of data to help guide that conversation. >>Yeah. Shout out to Julie Webb does a great job. She's a real pro and yes. And, and really makes sure that, like you say, you want the real, real answers. So what were some of the things that you were excited about or to learn about? Um, in the survey again, we, we touched just barely touched on it in 15 minutes with Jason, but what, what's your take? Well, >>Two that I'd love to point out. I mean, unfortunately Jason probably mentioned this one, you know, only 19% answered when we said, did you pay the ransom? And only 19% said, no, I didn't pay the ransom. And I was a hundred percent successful in my recovery. You know, we're in Vegas, one out of five odds. That's not good. Right? That's a go out of business spot. That's not the kind of 80 20 you want to hear. That's not exactly exactly. Now more concerning to me is 5% said no ransom was asked for. And you know, my phrase on that is that's, that's an arson event. It's not an extortion event. Right. I just came to do harm. That's really troubling. Now there's a huge percentage there that said we paid the ransom about 24% said we paid the ransom and we still couldn't restore the data. So if you add up that 24 in that five, that 29%, that was really scary to me. >>Yeah. So you had the 19%. Okay. That's scary enough. But then you had the wrecking ball, right? Ah, we're just gonna, it's like the mayhem commercial. Yes. Yeah. See ya. Right. Okay. So <laugh>, that's, that's wild. So we've heard a lot about, um, ransomware. The thing that interests me is, and we've had a big dose of ransomware as analysts in these last, you know, 12, 18 months and more. But, but, but it's really escalated. Yeah. Seems like, and by the way, you're sharing this data, which is amazing. Right. So I actually want to dig in and steal some of the, the data. I think that's cool. Right? Definitely. You gave us a URL this morning. Um, so, but you, your philosophy is to share the data. So everybody sees it, your customers, your prospects, your competitors, but your philosophy is to why, why are you sharing that data? Why don't you just keep it to yourself and do it quietly with customers? >>Yeah. You know, I think this is such a significant event. No one vendor's gonna solve it all. Realistically, we may be tied for number one in market share statistically speaking, but we have 12.5%. Right. So we're not gonna be able to do greater good if we're keeping that to ourselves. And it's really a notion of this awareness level, just having the conversation and having that more open, even if it's not us, I think is gonna be beneficial. It speaks to the value of backup and why backup is still relevant this day and age. >>I dunno if you're comfortable answering this, but I'll ask anyway, when you were a Gartner analyst, did you get asked about ransomware a lot? >>No. >>Very rarely or never. >>Almost never. Yeah. And that was four years ago. Literally. Like it >>Was a thing back then, right? I mean it wasn't of course prominent, but it was, it was, I guess it wasn't that >>20 16, 20 17, you know, it's, it's interesting because at a couple of levels you have the, um, the willingness of participants to share their stories, which is a classic example of people coming together to fight a common fo. Yeah, yeah. Right. In the best of times, that's what happens. And now you're sharing that information out. One of the reasons why some would argue we've gotten to this place is because day zero exploits have been stockpiled and they haven't been shared. So you go to, you know, you go, you go through the lineage that gets you to not pet cat as an example. Yes. And where did it come from? Hey, it was something that we knew about. Uh, but we didn't share it. Right. We waited until it happened because maybe we thought we could use it in, in some way. It's, it's an, it's an interesting philosophical question. I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where, if that's, uh, the third, it's the one, the third rail you don't want to touch, but basically we're, we are, I guess we're just left to sort through whatever, whatever we have to sort through in that regard. But it is interesting left to industry's own devices. It's sharing an openness. >>Yeah. You know, it's, I almost think it's like open source code. Right? I mean, the promise there is together, we can all do something better. And I think that's true with this ransomware research and the rest of the research we do too. We we've freely put it out there. I mean, you can download the link, no problem. Right. And go see the report. We're fine with that. You know, we think it actually is very beneficial. I remember a long time ago, it was actually Sam Adams that said, uh, you know, Hey, there's a lot of craft brewers out there now, you know, is, are you as a craft brewery now? Successful? Are you worried about that? No. We want every craft brewery to be successful because it creates a better awareness. Well, an availability market, it's still Boston reference. >>What did another Boston reference? Yes. Thank you, >>Boston. And what <laugh>. >>Yeah. So, you know, I, I, I feel like we've seen these milestone, you know, watershed events in, in security. I mean, stucks net sort of yeah. Informed us what's possible with nation states, even though it's highly likely that us and Israel were, were behind that, uh, the, the solar winds hack people are still worried about. Yes. Okay. What's next. Even, even something now. And so everybody's now on high alert even, I don't know how close you guys followed it, but the, the, uh, the Okta, uh, uh, breach, which was a fairly benign incident. And technically it was, was very, very limited and very narrow in scope. But CISOs that I talked to were like, we are really paranoid that there's another shoe to drop. What do we do? So the, the awareness is way, way off the charts. It begs the question. What's next. Can you, can you envision, can you stay ahead? It's so hard to stay ahead of the bad guys, but, but how are you thinking about that? What this isn't the end of it from your standpoint? >>No, it's not. And unfortunately it's because there's money to be made, right? And the barrier to entry is relatively low. It's like hiring a Hitman. You know, you don't actually have to even carry out the bad act yourself and get your own hands dirty. And so it's not gonna end, but it it's really security is everyone's responsibility. Veeam is not really a full time security company, but we play a role in that whole ecosystem. And even if you're not in the data center as an employee of a company, you have a role to play in security. You know, don't click that link, lock the door behind you, that type of thing. So how do you stay ahead of it? I think you just continually keep putting a focus on it. It's like performance. You're never gonna be done. There's always something to tune and to work on, but that can be overwhelming. So the positive I try to tell someone is to your point, Dave, look, a lot of these vulnerabilities were known for quite some time. If you were just current on your patch levels, this could have been prevented, right? You could have closed that window. So the thing that I often say is if you can't do everything and probably none of us can do something and then repeat, do it again, try to get a little bit better every period of time. Whether that's every day, every quarter, what case may be, do what you can. >>Yeah. So ransomware obviously very lucrative. So your job is to increase the denominator. So the ROI is lower, right? And that's a, that's a constant game, right? >>Absolutely. It is a crime of opportunity. It's indiscriminate. And oftentimes non-targeted now there are state sponsored events to your point, but largely it's like the fishermen casting the net out into the ocean. No idea with certainty, what's gonna come back. So I'm just gonna keep trying and trying and trying our goal is to basically you wanna be the house on the neighborhood that looks the least inviting. >>We've talked about this. I mean, any, anyone can be a, a, a ransomware as to go in the dark web, ransomware's a service. Oh, I gotta, I can put a stick into a server and a way I go and I get some Bitcoin right. For it. So, so that's, so, so organizations really have to take this seriously. I think they are. Um, well you tell me, I mean, in your discussions with, with, with customers, >>It's changed. Yeah. You know, I would say 18 months ago, there was a subset of customers out there saying vendors, crying Wolf, you know, you're trying to scare us into making a purchase decision or move off of something that we're working with. Now. I think that's almost inverted. Now what we see is people are saying, look, my boss or my boss's boss's boss, and the security team are knocking on my door asking, what are we gonna do? What's our response? You know, how prepared are we? What kind of things do we have in place? What does our backup practice do to support ransomware? The good news though, going back to the awareness side is I feel like we're evangelizing this a little less as an industry. Meaning the security team is well aware of the role that proper backup and availability can play. That was not true. A handful of years ago. >>Well, that's the other thing too, is that your study showed the closer the practitioner was to the problem. Yes. The more problems there were, that's an awareness thing. Yes. That's not a, that's not, oh, just those guys had visibility. I wanna ask you cuz you've You understand from an application view, right. There's only so much Veeam can do. Um, and then the customer has to have processes in place that go beyond just the, the backup and recovery technology. So, so from an application perspective, what are you advising customers where you leave off and they really have to take over this notion of shared responsibility is really extending beyond cloud security. >>Yeah. Uh, the model that I like is interestingly enough, what we see with Caston in the Kubernetes space. Mm-hmm <affirmative> is there, we're selling into two different constituencies, potentially. It's the infrastructure team that they're worried about disaster recovery. They're worried about backup, but it's the app dev DevOps team. Hey, we're worried about creating the application. So we're spending a lot of focus with the casting group to say, great, go after that shift, left crowd, talk to them about a data availability, disaster recovery, by the way you get data movement or migration for free with that. So migration, maybe what you're first interested in on day one. But by doing that, by having this kind of capability, you're actually protecting yourself from day two issues as well. >>Yeah. So Let's see. Um, what haven't we hit on in this study? There was so much data in there. Uh, is that URL, is that some, a private thing that you guys shared >>Or is it no. Absolutely. >>Can, can you share the >>URL? Yeah, absolutely. It's V E E so V two E period am so V with the period between the E and the a forward slash RW 22. So ransomware 22 is the research project. >>So go there, you download the zip file, you get all the graphics. Um, I I'm gonna dig into it, uh, maybe as early as this, this Friday or this weekend, like to sort of expose that, uh it's you guys obviously want this, I think you're right. It's it's it's awareness needs to go up to solve this problem. You know, I don't know if it's ever solvable, but the only approach is to collaborate. Right. So I, I dunno if you're gonna collaborate with your head-to-head competitors, but you're certainly happy to share the data I've seen Dave, some competitors have pivoted from data protection or even data management to security. Yes. I see. I wonder if I could run a premise by, I see that as an adjacency to your business, but not sort of throwing you into the security bucket. What are your thoughts on that? >>Yeah. You know, certainly respect everything other competitors are doing, you know, and some are getting very, you know, making some good noise and getting picked up on that. However, we're unapologetically a backup company. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, we're a backup company. First. We're worried about security. We're worried about, you know, data reuse and supporting shift, left types of things, but we're not gonna apologize for being in the backup availability business, not, not at all. However, there's a role that we can play. Having said that that we're a role. We're a component. If you're in the secondary storage market, like backup or archiving. And you're trying to imply that you're going to help prevent or even head off issues on the primary storage side. That might be a little bit of a stretch. Now, hopefully that can happen that we can go get better as an industry on that. >>But fundamentally we're about ensuring that you're recoverable with reliability and speed when you need it. Whether we're no matter what the issue is, because we like to say ransomware is a disaster. Unfortunately there's other kind of disasters that happen as well. Power failures still happen. Natural issues still occur, et cetera. So all these things have to be accounted for. You know, one of our survey, um, data points basically said all the things that take down a server that you didn't plan on. It's basically humans at the top human error, someone accidentally deleted something and then malicious humans, someone actually came after you, but there's a dozen other things that happened too. So you've gotta prepare for all of that. So I guess what I would end up with saying is you remember back in the centralized data centers, especially the mainframe days, people would say, we're worried about the smoking hole or the smoking crater event. Yeah. Yeah. The probability of a plane crashing into your data bunker was relatively low. That was when it got all the discussion though, what was happening every single day is somebody accidentally deleted a file. And so you need to account on both ends of the spectrum. So we don't wanna over rotate. And we also, we don't want to signal to 450,000 beam customers around the world that we're abandoning you that were not about backup. That's still our core >>Effort. No, it's pretty straightforward. You're just telling people to back up in a way that gives them a certain amount of mitigation yes. Or protection in the event that something happens. And no, I don't remember anything about mainframe. He does though though, much older than me >>EF SMS. So I even know what it stands for. Count key data don't even get me started. So, and, and it wasn't thank you for that answer. I didn't mean to sort of a set up question, but it was more of a strategy question and I wish wish I could put on your analyst hat because I, I feel, I'll just say it. I feel as though it's a move to try to get a tailwind. Maybe it's a valuation play. I don't know. But I, I, it resonated with me three years ago when everybody was talking data management and nobody knew what that meant. Data management. I'm like Oracle. >>Right. >>And now it's starting to become a little bit more clear. Um, but Danny Allen stuff and said, it's all about the backup. I think that was one of his keynote messages. So that really resonated with me cuz he said, yeah, it starts with backup and recovery. And that's what, what matters most to these customers. So really was a strategy question. Now maybe it does have valuation impact. Maybe there's a big market there that can be consolidated. You know, uh, we, this morning in the analyst session, we heard about your new CEO's objectives of, you know, grabbing more market share. So, and that's, that's an adjacency. So it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out far too many security vendors. As, as we know, the backup and recovery space is getting more crowded and that is maybe causing people to sort of shift. I don't know, whatever right. Or left, I guess, shift. Right. I'm not sure, but um, it's gonna be really interesting to watch because this has now become a really hot space after, you know, it's been some really interesting momentum in certain pockets, but now it's everywhere it's coming ubiquitous. So I'll give you the last word Dave on, uh, day one, VEON 20, 22. >>Yeah. Well boy, so many things I could say to kind of land the plane on, but we're just glad to be back in person. It's been three years since we've had a live event in those three years, we've gone from 300,000 customers to 450,000 customers. The release cadence, even in the pandemic has been the greatest in the company's history in 2020, 2021, there's only about three dozen software only companies that have hit a billion dollars and we're one of them. And that, you know, that mission is why hasn't changed and that's why we wanna stay consistent. One of the things Danny always likes to say is, you know, we keep telling the same story because we're not wanting to deviate off of that story and there's more work to be done. And to honors point, you know, Hey, if you have ambitious goals, you're gonna have to look at spreading your wings out a little bit wider, but we're never gonna abandon being a backup. Well, >>It's, it's clear to me, Dave on was not brought in to keep you steady at a billion. I think he's got a site set on five and then who knows what's next? Dave Russell, thanks so much for coming back in the cube. Great to >>See always a pleasure. Thank you. >>All right. That's a wrap for Dave one. Dave ante and Dave Nicholson will be backed tomorrow with a full day of coverage. Check out Silicon angle.com for all the news, uh, youtube.com/silicon angle. You can get these videos. They're all, you know, flying up Wiki bond.com for some of the research in this space. We'll see you tomorrow.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Lisia Spain, a cuon cloud native con Europe 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. Welcome Paul, >>Thank you, Keith pleasure to work >>With you. You know, we're gonna have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time Q con attendees. This is your first conference. >>It is my first cubic con and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of, you know, just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about what the cloud was and what the cloud was gonna do and how we were gonna integrate multiple clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of, out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here, this has become a, a, this is the dominant trend in enterprise architecture right now, how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that, that transparent cloud that has been so elusive. >>It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a, a few dozen people to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with thousands of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle, so to speak this elusive concept of multi-cloud. >>And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the, the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. Many of them are only two or three years old, and you don't see the big, the big dominant computing players with, with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and, and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired. There'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think, dramatically over the next couple or three years, but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is, is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they press it. >>Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CR O chief revenue officer that's right. Chief marketing officer that's right of spec cloud. Welcome to the show. Thank >>You. It's great to be here. >>So let's talk about this big ecosystem. Okay. Kubernetes. Yes. Solve problem. >>Well, you know, the, the dream is, well, first of all, applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customer, it's about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in, along comes containerization, which helps you innovate more quickly. And certainly a dominant technology. There is Kubernetes. And the, the question is how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running, cuz everywhere has pluses and minuses. >>So you know what the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is runs on my laptop. Yep. I can push it to any cloud, any platform that's that's right. Where's the gap. Where are we in that, in that phase? Like talk to me about scale. Is that, is that, is it that simple? >>Well, that act is actually the problem is that date while the technology is the dominant containerization technology and orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user. It really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so it was these very expensive, highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that, that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together. What is a typical 20 layer stack to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale. So we've gone from sort of DIY developer centric to all right, now, how do I manage this at scale? >>Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of cloud native technologies. Yes. And you who is going to, who is going to integrate that, all that stuff, piece that stuff together, right? Obviously you have a, a role in that. Yes. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >>We, we see a recognition of that, that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control. And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >>So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is this, is Kubernetes an AI ops or an ops a task, or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >>Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers, to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers components. You just want all those components to work together. You don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like spectra cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >>So help paint this picture for us. You know, I get got AKs ETS and those, all of these distributions OpenShift, the tan zoo, where is spec cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros I thought distro was the, was the thing like, just like Lennox has different distros, you know, right. Randy said different distros >>That actually is the irony. Is that sort of the age of debating, the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them, there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now, how do I, again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into a, into scale. How do I move it into deploy at scale, to be able to manage ongoing at scale, to be able to innovate at scale, to allow engineers, as I said, use the coolest tools, but still have technical guardrails that the, the enterprise knows they'll be in control of what, >>What does at scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >>Well, I think it's interesting cuz we think scale's different cuz we've all been in the industry and it's frankly sort of boring old wor word, but today it means different things. Like how do I automate the deployment at scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment from either a virtualized or bare metal data center cloud or today edge is really big where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to this source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it scale you wanna manage at scale, you wanna make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but it ops wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago, when we started spectra cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial, all versioning at different rates. It becomes an insurmountable problem unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility and control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a, of a scale of operation. >>So, so Dave, I'm a little challenged here cuz I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Okay. Flexibility control. Yes. In order to achieve control, I need complexity in order to choose flexibility. I need t-shirt one t-shirt fits all right. To and I, and I, and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't you know, compute >>Well thus the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet it ops wants to be able to make sure that there are guard rails. And so with some of today's technologies like spectral cloud, it is you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three, it executives said you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance. How do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but it ops the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions. But in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's, that's really where the industry is today. >>Enterprise enterprise CIOs do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors. Most of these companies, very small startups are, are enterprises. Are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the Microsofts to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >>I, I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday as a part of edge day here at the event, we had GE healthcare as one of our customers telling their story. And they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment. X-rays MRIs, cat scans, and they're, they're starting to treat those as edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like spectral cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The edge is an interesting thought, but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >>So let's talk about the edge a little. You kind of opened it up there. Yeah. How should customers think about the edge versus the cloud data center or even bare metal? >>Actually it's a well bare bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. And, but we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes. We've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing and then we've had orchestration technology's developing, but they haven't really come together very well lately. We're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together. Making bare metal much more approachable to the inters enterprise edge is interesting because it seems pretty obvious. You wanna push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI in fencing or O T or anything like that, you don't wanna worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the edge as if it's almost like a cloud where all I worry about is the app. >>So really the edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-cloud sort of motif where I want these edge devices to require low it resources to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management patch management really act like a cloud. And we're seeing this as very, very popular now. And I just used the GE healthcare example of that. Imagine a cat scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an edge device. And it's, it's doing medical imagery, which is very intense in terms of data. You want to be able to process it quickly and accurately as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider as possible. >>So let's talk about that in some level of detail, as we think about kind of edge and you know, these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there? Are we looking at something talking back to the cloud, where does special cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world? Simpler? >>Sure. Well we announced our edge Kubernetes edge solution at a big medical conference called, called hymns months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application. And then you can de you can design this declarative model, this cluster API, but beyond cluster profile, which determines which additional application services you need and the edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power plug in the communications. It registers the edge device. It automates the deployment of the full stack. And then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very, very easy. No, it resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all >>Automated, but there's so many different types of edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. Yeah. I mean, what, that seems like a much more complex environment, just calling it, the edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is thousands of different devices, right? That you have to run your applications on how, how are you dealing with that? >>So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like. We don't want to debate about, you know, which OS you want to use. The truth is you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll wanna make. And so the key is, is how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, you know, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >>And who's respo, I'm sorry, key. Who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the edge device. >>We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack all the application services and the application itself on that device. >>So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that, but provisioning is getting to the point that it's a solve problem. Day two. Yes. Like we, you know, you just mentioned hymns, highly regulated environments. How does spec cloud helping with configuration management change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >>Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy all the way to day two, which is about, you know, access control, security. It's about ongoing versioning and patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. And, but you're right. Like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works. It's always up to the latest level, have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >>Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two option. I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just, you know, as we've gotten past, you know, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod to how do I actually operate it? >>Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say, >>Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the edge has some very unique requirements. You want very small form factors. Typically you want low it resources. It has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't wanna send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >>Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on to Q you're now Cub Alon. You've not been on before. >>I have actually. Yes. Oh. But I always enjoy it. >>It's great conversation. Foria Spain. I'm Keith towns along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> So Alex, we're going to do, this is a different segment so I'll do a break, okay. What's that? Yeah, yeah. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested, they retested their techniques and they use very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems, and numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. Now they use techniques like they would insert malware steal data, and then they'd remove the malicious code before it was discovered. And so many other advanced approaches were used to cover their tracks. Now the really scary thing about this breach is people often think, oh, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true. You're not safe because the domino effect of this hack has created massive concerns. We actually, to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and who really was impacted. And we may never know. Connecting all the dots on this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, seemed to hit the news cycle weekly. And they further underscore the risk to organizations, not just large companies by the way, but small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation will likely play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist. How to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways organizations can reduce their risks going forward. Let's get started. I'm going to do that again. Same one, I'll do each one twice. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested and they retested their techniques and used very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems in numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. They would use techniques like inserting malware and then they would steal data. And then they would remove the code before it was discovered. And they use many other advanced approaches to cover their tracks. The really scary thing about this breach is, people often think, oh, well, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true you're not safe, because the domino effect of this hack it's created a massive massive concerns throughout the industry. We actually to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and we don't even know who was impacted. We may never know. So connecting all the dots in this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, they seem to hit the news like weekly. And they further underscore the risks that organizations face, not just large companies by the way, small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today, we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps that we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation is likely going to play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist and how to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways that organizations can reduce their risk going forward. Let's get started. When we return Andrea Hall, a specialist solution architect and project manager for security and compliance, along with Andrew Block, who is a distinguished architect, both from Red Hat will join me. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. Now when we return Andrea Hall, who's a specialist solutions architect and project manager for security and compliance will join me along with Andrew Block, who's a distinguished architect. They're both from Red Hat. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. Now the adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to make it less profitable for hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them and the hackers want value it's all about ROI. That means benefit over cost. So if you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they'll go elsewhere to fish in a more productive place. The hard reality is bad user practices are going to trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos are available on demand, check out thecube.net and theCUBE's and Red Hat's, social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, this is Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. Do that again. (cough) Excuse me. So look, I wish I could say there's an end. I'll try it again. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. The adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and they're sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to try and make it less profitable for the hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them. And the hackers, what do they want? They want value. It's all about ROI for them. That means benefit over cost. If you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they're going to go elsewhere, and they'll fish in more productive places. The hard reality is that bad user practices will trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Now beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills, and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos that are available on demand at thecube.net and both theCUBE's and Red Hat's social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to all our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team. This is Dave Vellante. I appreciate you watching and we'll see you next time.

(bright music) >> Hello, and welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE, here in Palo Alto, California. It's a hybrid world, we're still doing remote in news. Of course, events are coming back in person, but more importantly conversations continue. We've got two great guests here, John Siegal, SVP ISG Marketing at Dell Technologies, and Dave McGraw, office of the CTO at VMware. Gentlemen, great to see you moving forward. Dell Technologies and VMware great partnership. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to be back. >> Yeah, hi, John, thanks for having us. >> You know, the world's coming back to kind of real life, Omnicon virus is out there, but people say it's not going to be as bad as we think, but it looks like events are happening. But more importantly, the cloud native, cloud operations is definitely forcing lots of great new things happening, new innovations on-premises and at the Edge. A lot of new things happening in Dell and VMware, both have been working together for a long time now. VMware a separate company, we'll get to that in a second, but let's get to the partnership. What's new, what's changed with the relationship? >> Yeah, so I mean, just to kick that off and certainly Dave can chime in, but I think in a word, you know, John, nothing changes in terms of my customer's perspective. I mean, in many ways our joint relationship has never been stronger. We've put a ton of investment in both joint engineering innovation, Joint Go To Market over the last several years. And we're really been making what was our vision a couple of years ago a reality, and we only expect that to continue. And I think much of the reason we expect that to continue is because we have a shared vision of this distributed multi-cloud, you know, cloud native, modern app environment that customers want to drive. >> Yeah, and John, I would add that we've been building platforms together for the last five years, a great example is VxRail. You know, it's a market-leading technology that we've co-engineered together. And now it's a platform that we're actually building out use cases on top of whether it's multi-cloud solutions, whether it's private and hybrid cloud or including Tansu for developer environments. You know, we're using the investments we made and then we're layering in and building more value into those investments together. And we put agreements in place by the way that, you know, multi-year agreements around commercial arrangements and partnering together as well as our technology collaboration together. So we feel really confident about the future and that's what we're communicating to our customer base. >> Yeah, indeed just go ahead sorry, John. >> No, good. >> I was going to say just to build on that, as he said, I really, when I say not much changes, I mean, VMware has always been an open ecosystem partner, right? With its OEM vendors out there. And I think the difference here is Dell has made a strategic choice and a decision to make a significant investment in joint innovation, joint engineering, joint testing for VMware environments. And so I think a lot of this comes down to the commitment and focus that we've already made. You mentioned VxRail, which is a fantastic example where we at Dell, we've invested our own IP. You know, HCI systems software, that's sort of the secret ingredient that the secret sauce that delivers that single click, you know, automated lifecycle management experience. And we're investing lots of dollars in test labs just to ensure that customers always have that, you know, that seamless experience. >> You know, one of the benefits of doing theCUBE for 11 years now, it's just been that long, both EMC World and Dell World back in the day was our first events we went to. We've watched you guys together over the years. One of the things that strikes to be consistently the same is this focus of end to end, but also modularity, but also interoperability and kind of componentizing kind of the solution, not to oversimplify it, but this is kind of the big discussion right now as cloud scale, horizontal scale is with cloud resources are being put into the development stream where modern applications now are clear using only cloud native operations. That doesn't mean it's just cloud. I mean, it's cloud everywhere, but it's distributed computing. So this is kind of the original vision if you go back even five years or more. You guys have been working on this. This is kind of an important inflection point because now it's well known that the modern application is going to have to be programmable under the hood. Meaning everything's going to be scaling and rise of superclouds or new Edge technologies, which is coming fast. This is the new normal. This is not something that we were talking about mainstream five years ago, but you guys have been working on this kind of simplicity solutions-based approach. What's your reaction? >> That's right, John, I'll tell you, you might remember at VMworld a couple of years ago we announced Project Monterey. And now this was really a redefining architecture for not only data center, core data centers, but also for cloud and Edge environments. And so it's leveraging technology, you know, data processing units also known as smart NICs. You know, we're essentially redefining what that infrastructure looks like, making it more efficient, more performance, depending on the use case. So we've been partnering very closely with Dell to develop that technology and it's going to really transform what you see at the Edge and what you also see in core data centers going forward. >> Yeah, and there's so many of those. I mean, I think it seems Monterey is a great example of one that we continue to invest in. I think there's also NBME over TCP is another, if you will key ingredient to how customer is going to essentially get the performance they need out of the infrastructure going forward. And so we were proud to be a partner there, at most recent VMware where we announced, you know, the ability to essentially automate the integration of MBME over TCP with Dell EMC system integrated with vSphere. And that's a great example as well, right? I think there's countless. >> John: Yeah. >> And I'll tell you, we are so excited to see what Dell has done in the storage business with PowerStore X, where they've integrated vSphere ESXi into a storage array. And, you know, that creates all kinds of opportunities going forward for better integration and really for plug and play of, you know, the storage technology into cloud infrastructure. >> What's interesting about what you guys talking about is remember the old DevOps moving infrastructure as code. Okay, that became DevSecOps. That's big part of Tansu and security. Now it's all about devs, right? So now devs have all that built in and now the operations are the big conversation because one of the things we pointed out in the theCUBE recently is that, you know, VMware has owned the IT operations world, in our opinion for a long, long time. Dell has owned the enterprise for a very long time in terms of infrastructure in front solutions. The operational efficiency of cloud hybrid is really kind of what's the gateway to multi-cloud. This has been a big part of IT transformation. Can you guys share how you guys were working together to make that flexibility to transform from the old IT to the new IT? And what are some of the things that you're seeing with your customers that can give them a map of how to do this? >> Yeah, so I would say, you know, one area in particular that we're really coming together is around APEX, right? From an as a service perspective. I think what APEX is really doing is really unifying much of what you just described. It's taking as a service, it's taking multi-cloud, it's taking cloud native development if you will, and modern app development. And we together partner to ensure that's a consistent experience for customers. And we have a number of new APEX cloud services that keep that in mind and that are built on joint innovations, like frankly, VxRail at the bottom of that as they've said earlier. So for customers are looking to get, you know, item managing infrastructure altogether, which we, you know, we're seeing more and more now, we recently announced the APEX Cloud Services With VMware Cloud you know, which is again, a joint solution that'll be available soon. And it's one that is managed by Dell, but, you know, it gives customers that simplicity and scale of the public cloud, but certainly that control and security and performance, if you will, that they prefer to have in the private club. >> Yeah, and I think because, you know, the APEX Cloud Service is designed with the VMware Cloud, you have a capability that drives consistency and portability of workloads for customers. So they don't have to re-skill and retrain to be able to manage the environment. They also are not locked in to any particular solution. They have this ability to move workloads depending on what their needs are; economically, performance, you know, logistics requirements, and they can react accordingly as they digitize their business going forward. >> It's interesting, you guys are talking about this demand in a way, addressing this demand for as a service, which is, you know, it can be one cloud or multiple clouds, but it's really more of an abstraction layer of what you deploy to essentially create that connective tissue between what's existing, what's new and how to make it all work together to again, satisfy the developer 'cause the new apps are coming, right? They want more data is coming into them. So this has been, is this the as a service focus, is that what's happening? >> Yes, absolutely, yeah. The, as a service focus is, you know, at the end of the day is how are we going to really simplify this. We've been on this journey now for at least a year and much more to go. And VMware has been a key partner here, you know, on that journey. So a number of cloud services. We've had APEX Hybrid Cloud, APEX Private Cloud, you know, out there for some time. In fact, that's where we're getting a lot of the traction right now, and this new offering that's going to come out soon that we just mentioned with VMware cloud is just going to build on that. >> And VMware is a super cloud, isn't it Dave? Because you guys would be considered by our new definition of Supercloud because you can sit on Amazon. You also have other clouds too, so your customers can operate on any cloud. >> Our view is that, you know, from a multi-cloud future for customers to be able to be on-premises with a, you know, APEX service, to be able to be operating in a Colo, to be able to operate in one of many different hyperscalers, you know, providing that consistency and flexibility is going to be key. And I think also you mentioned Tansu earlier, John. You know, being able to have the customer have choice around whether they're operating with VMs and containers is really key as well. So, you know, what Dell has done with APEX is they set up again, another platform that we can just provide our SASE offerings to very simply and easily and deliver that value to customers in a consistent fashion going forward here. >> You know, I just love the term Supercloud. Actually, I called it subclass, but Dave Vellante called them Superclouds. But the idea is that you can have all the super power in the cloud capabilities, but it's also distributed clouds, right? Where you have Edge, you've got the Core and the notion of a cloud isn't like one place in which there's distributed computing. This is what the world now realizes. Again, we've talked about in theCUBE many times. So let's discuss this whole Core to Edge dynamic because if everything's cloudified, if you will, or cloud operations, you've got devs and ops kind of working together with security, all that good stuff. Now you have almost a seamless environment where code can run anywhere, data should traverse anywhere, but the idea of an Edge changes dramatically and certainly with 5G. So can you guys tie that Edge computing story together how Dell and VMware are addressing this massive growth at the Edge? >> Yeah, I would say, you know, first and foremost, we are seeing a major shift. As you mentioned today, the data being generated at the Edge it's, I think Michael Dell has actually gone on record talking about the next frontier, right? So it's especially happening because we're seeing all these smart monitoring capabilities, IOT, right? At almost any end point now from retail, traffic lights, manufacturing floors, you name it. I think anywhere where data is being acted upon to generate critical insights, right? That's considered an Edge now and we're expecting to see, as ITC has already gone out there on record as saying 50% of the new infrastructure out there will be deployed at the Edge in the next couple of years, so. And it's a different world, right? I mean, I think in terms of what's needed and what the challenges are, there's certainly a lack of specialized technical resources, typically at the Edge, there's typically a scaling issue. How do you manage all those distributed endpoints and do so successfully? And how do you ensure you lay any concerns around security as well? So, you know, once again, we've had a very collaborative approach when it comes to working on challenges like Edge, and, you know, we, again, common theme here, but the VxRail, which is a leading, you know, joint ACI off in the market is the foundation of many of our Edge offerings out there in the market today. The new satellite nodes that we just announced just a few months ago, extends VxRail's, you know, value proposition to the Edge, using a single node deployment. And it's really perfect for customers that don't have that local technical resource expertise or specialized resources. And it still has cyber resilience built right in. >> And John, just to follow up on that real quick, before Dave chimes in. On the Edge, compute has been a huge issue. And I've talked with you guys about this too. You guys have the compute, you have the integrated systems now, any update there on what VxRail is doing different or other Edge power (John laughs) PowerEdge sounds familiar? We need some more power at the Edge. So what's new there? >> Well, you know, first of all, we had new PowerEdge platforms of course, come out in this past year, and, you know, there's, we're building on that. I mean, the latest VxRail is of course, leveraged that power of PowerEdge. Yeah, lots of a good naming arrogance, right? PowerEdge. >> John: I love that. And, but, you know, it's, you know, it's at the heart of much of what we're doing. We're taking a lot of our capabilities that have been IP, like streaming data platform, which enables streaming, video and real-time analytics and running that on a VxRail or PowerEdge platform. You know, we're doing the same thing, you know, with, in the manufacturing side. We're working with partners that have IOT Edge platforms, you know, and running those on VxRail and PowerEdge. So we are taking very much the idea here that, yes, you're right with our rich resources of infrastructure, both with PowerEdge and VxRail, you know, building on that. But working with partners like VMware and others to collapse an integrated solution for the Edge. And so we're seeing really good uptake so far. >> Dave, what's your take on the Dell Edge with VMware, because automation is big theme, not moving data across an internet that's obviously huge. And you got to have that operational stability there. >> Absolutely, and, you know, to your point, being able to do the processing at the Edge and move results around versus moving massive amounts of data around is really key to the future going forward. And, you know, we've taken an approach with Dell where we're working with customers, we're having detailed conversations, really using a "Tiger Team Approach" around the use cases; manufacturing and retail being two of the real key focuses, healthcare another one where we're understanding customer requirements, it's both today and where they want to go. And, you know, so it's about distributed computing, certainly at the Edge. Dell is coming out with some great new platforms that we're integrating our software with. At the same time, we have technology in STWIN and SASE that become part of that solution as well, with VeloCloud. And we're developing a global network of points of presence that really will help support distributed application environments and Edge-native Application environments working with Dell going forward. >> That's great stuff. The next ending question is what's next. I want to just tee that up by bringing up what you kind of made me think of there, Dave, and this is key supply chain on both hardware and software talking about security. So when you say those things you're talking about in terms of functionality, the question is security, right? Both hardware and software supply chain with open source, with automation. I mean, this is a big discussion. What do you guys react to that about what's next.. >> Yeah, I can tell you from a central engineering perspective, you know, we're looking at security compliance and privacy every day, we're working closely with Dell. In fact, we're in the middle of meetings today in this area. And, you know, I look at a few key areas of investment that we're making collectively together. One is in the area of end to end encryption of data. For virtualized environments or containerized environments, being able to have end-to-end encryption and manage a very efficient way, the keys and maintain the data compression and deduplication capabilities for customers, you know, efficiency and cost purposes while being very secure. The second area we're working closely on is in Zero Trust. You know, being able to develop Zero Trust infrastructure across Edge, to Core, to Colo, to Cloud and making sure that, you know, we have reference designs available to customers with procedures, policies, best practices, to be able to drive Zero Trust environments. >> John what you're (indistinct) is huge and you guys have, literally could be the keys to the kingdom pun intended. You guys are doing a lot of great security at the Edge too, whether the traffic stays with the Edge or goes across the network. >> That's all right, I'm as curious, like you said, it's been a joint focus and initiative across much of our portfolio for quite a while now. And I think, you know, you asked what's next and I think, you know, sky's the limit right now. I mean, we've got the shared vision, right? I think at the end of the day, you know, we've shared a number of joint initiatives that are ongoing right now with Project Monterrey. Obviously our integration with Tansu and a number of solutions we have there, work around APEX, et cetera. I think we have complimentary capabilities. You mentioned, you know, areas like supply chain, areas like security, you know, and I think these are all things that we both do well together. And the thing I will say that I think is probably the most key to us sustaining this great execution together is our collaborative cultures. I think, you know, there's something to be said for what we built, you know, all these last several years, you know, around these collaborative cultures, working together on joint roadmaps and focusing on really end of the day solving our customer's biggest challenges, whatever those may be, you know? And so at the end of the day behind us, we have the greatest supply chains, you know, services, support, and innovation engines. But I think, you know, I think that the passion, our groups working together I think is going to be key to us going forward. >> Well, great stuff moving forward together with Dell Technologies and VMware. David, thanks for coming on. John, great to see you. Thanks for sharing insight. Great CUBE conversation talking encryption, we've spoken about Edge and supply chain as well. Great stuff, great conversation. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you >> Thank you so much, John. >> Okay, this is theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, with theCUBE. You're watching CUBE coverage. Thank you so much for watching. (bright music)

>>Good morning live from Las Vegas. It's the Q with AWS reinvent 2021. This is our fourth day of coverage. The third full day of the conference. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. Dave, we had had a tremendous number of conversations. In fact, we've two live sets over a hundred guests on the program, and I have another web. I've got two Dave's for you for the price of one. Dave trader joins us the field CSO client advisor at Presidio. We're going to be talking about ransomware and security, Dave, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. So it's looking at your background. You've got a very cool background. You hold numerous cybersecurity certifications, including CIS SP you've received numerous endorsements from the department of Homeland security, the FBI and NSA. And in 2018, you graduated from the FBI's CSO academy in Quantico. Wow. Yeah, it sounds like he's a man with a very special set of skills. I think you're right. I think you're right. One of the things that we have seen the cybersecurity landscape has changed dramatically in the last year and a half 22 months or so. I was reading some stats ransomware and the check happens delivery once every 11 seconds. It's now a matter of when not, if talk to us about some of the things that you're seeing, the threat landscape, changing ransomware as a service what's going on. >>The last part that you mentioned was ransomware as a service is key. The access to be able to launch a tax has become so simplified that the, the, the, uh, the attacker level doesn't have to be sophisticated. Really. You can get down to the 100 level brand new hackers that are just getting into the space. They can go to a help desk and they can purchase ransomware, and they can run this ransomware that has the comes with quality assurance, by the way. And if they didn't run correctly, they've got a help desk support system. That'll help them run this in a, you know, as a criminal enterprise. Um, the access is really what is, what has made this so prevalent, and it really exacerbated the problem to the massive scale that we're seeing today. Yeah. >>And of course, we're only hearing about the big ones, you know, re you know, Conti colonial pipeline. But as I mentioned, an attack occurring every 11 seconds, I also was reading the first half of calendar, 21, that ransomware was up nearly 11 X. So the trajectory it's going the wrong way, it's going up into the right and the way that we don't want it to go, are they becoming more brazen? Is it easier? Ransomware is the surface, but also they're able to be paid in Bitcoin and that's less traceable. >>Yeah. So, um, exponential is not even fair, right? Cause it, that's not even a fair assessment because that up and right, it's just, it's been so pervasive that we just see that continued growth. Uh, you know, there's how, you know, different ways and how we're going to stop that. And what we're, what we're doing from a national perspective is all coming into play and what we're going to do about it. You know? So the, one of the things that I'm seeing, that's kind of new is the taunting aspect. So the taunting aspect is, uh, you know, they've been in your network for a little while, the dwell times extended and they're collecting intelligence, but what they're doing is, you know, they used to let you, after they would present you with the ransomware note, they would let you kind of circle the wagons. And then you would come to a decision point as an organization. >>Is, am I going to pay or am I not well? And they would give you a little bit of time to deliberate. Well, now during your deliberation time, they're actually sending texts to the CEO and the CFO and there's, and they're, they're, they're showcasing their, their, uh, technical prowess and that they've got you, they own you at that point. And they're, they're texting on your personal device. And they're saying, you should go ahead and pay us, or we're going to make this worse. The taunting aspect is even twisting the knife and it's, uh, you know, out of box isn't even from a criminal aspect, I expect that to be out of bounds, no >>Crazy. And of course, you know, some of the things that we've seen, um, uh, the, the white houses, counter ransomware initiative, a coalition of 30 countries aimed to ramp up global efforts to attack that it's like, are you seeing cyber crime with the rise and the proliferation, you think there's gonna be more regulations and organizations that are going to be having to deal with? What do you think? Some of the things that we're going to see on that legal? >>Yeah. So we have to, we have to leverage compliance, and there's a lot of really great frameworks out there today that we are leveraging. And there's, there's good methodology on how to stop this. The issue is it's the adoption and really the, the, the knowledge, the subject matter expertise, and really that consultant side, that's the message that I try and get out to, to, to our customers and our clients. And I'm trying to really get them to understand what that evolution looks like and what, what is needed in each discipline, because there's various disciplines across the board and you almost have to have them all, um, you know, in order to be able to stop ransomware and solve for that ransomware problem. And I do think the regulation is going to be key. I also think that I need some air support from not only the federal government, but our internet service providers and, and we as a free country, we need to be careful of, you know, on, on some of that, some of those fronts. But I, I, I still think that I would appreciate, you know, my ISP doing a little bit of block and tackle for me, you know, and helping me out, even though I want the freedom to do and be able to do whatever I want. I still like them to say, you know, we're gonna block known that because, you know, it would just be nice to have a little bit of support even on that side. So how does >>An ISP prevent me from panning out my password and being fooled in a, in a, in a phishing attack is the, is the question that, is, that, is that still a real issue? >>So I wouldn't put that. I wouldn't put that on the ISP. I would put that more on the end point and some personal responsibility, right. Knowing, and I do, I do stress that a little bit, but relatively early >>Morning sarcasm in my bag. >>Yeah. So I do put that on, but there, but there are tremendous partners that I work with that are able to do that and automate a lot of that for you. And I need to make it simple, but simple as hard. And that's what you know is, especially in cybersecurity, we want to make it simple for it and really be able to remove the threat to the end user and protect the user. But in order to do that, there's a ton of things on a ton of sophistication and innovation that happens in the background. And we really need to be able to showcase how that's done. And, um, I, it's, obviously I'm excited about it, but we need more people that are able to just specialize in this. We need more good guys that are able to come in and help us on this front. >>I also think we need to break down some barriers for on the competition with, you know, market share and the partners we need to, we need to kind of elevate the conversation a little bit and we all need to work together because we're all in the same boat when it comes to how we're being attacked. Um, you know, from a national perspective on a global scale. And I think that if we elevate the conversation, our collective, uh, mindset in that, that, that, that, uh, that, that mind share is going to be able to really help us innovate and, and put a stop to this. >>So then how is Presidio and AWS, how are you helping them until you get to it? Ransomware and mitigation can talk to us about that. How are you going to be helping, especially there's cyber security skills gap that's gone on like five years. >>Sure. Yeah. That skills gap is going to continue to, we're going to continue to see that grow as well. And we're efforting that on many fronts, but I'm really excited about the ransomware mitigation kit that got, uh, unveiled yesterday. Um, I got a call earlier this year from, uh, AWS and, and, uh, we basically, the question was posed to me, you know, what are we going to do about this is from an AWS perspective, what can we do? Um, you know, cause th the cyber adversaries are, uh, are, are relatively unchecked and, and, and their attitude is what are you going to do about it? So AWS posed the question, what are we going to do about it? And what we came up with was, you know, as, as an isolated organization, or as an isolated discipline as with like a managed detection and response or endpoint protection, um, that silo could not by itself accomplish and the solve to eliminate ransomware or to make a dent in eliminate ransomware. >>So what we had to do was combine disciplines, and we reached over to BCDR disaster recovery and, and, and, and our backup teams. And we said, let's put together endpoint protection, MDR, and let's, let's merge the two of these. And let's automate that. So that what happens is, is when we detect the ransomware attack, there's, there's a specific indicators of compromise that happened in the attack, the end point protection, which is CrowdStrike in our case can see that and can notify that, and then can tell the backup and recovery team, Hey, we know that this is a, this is an indicator of compromise. We know that this system is, has been owned. And then there's an inflection point where we can ask the user if they want to manually intervene, or if they want us to automate that and intervene for them. So it really keeps production going full-time and, uh, it doesn't, it takes away the cyber adversaries ability to hold our data hostage. So this is an, it was this one, and I don't use PI verbally, uh, frequently, but this is a monumental, uh, uh, evolution of what, of what we're going to see and how to prevent ransomware. >>Wow. I was reading that, that ransomware is backups, or you talked about backup, the backup backup attacks are on the rise as well. How can organizations, how can they work with Presidio in AWS? You described this as monumental kind of game-changing, how can they work with you guys to, to implement this technology so that we can start dialing down the threats? >>Yeah. So we would love to, we would love to hear from you, right? Give us a, give us a call. Um, but, uh, our teams, you know, with, with CloudEndure and AWS CloudEndure and CrowdStrike and what they've really come up with, and, and you have to have these two things ahead of time. So I sit on our critical incident response team, and, you know, I, I do work with, you know, the, the bureau as often as I can on attribution, but you have to have these ahead of time. So your, your, your, your, uh, critical response plan needs to be in place. And if you have the two things that we, that we've really put a lot of effort into over the last eight months, if you've got CrowdStrike and you've got cloud on, on the backend, we can establish all of those, um, and, and really set this up for you to eliminate that threat. And, and that's what we're excited to showcase this week, and, you know, in the coming months, and we're going to, and we've also got additional things in additional features that we plan to add to that in the, in the coming months, Dave, >>Your thoughts on the partnership between private industry and government entities. Uh, you mentioned that the level of sophistication to engage in this bad behavior doesn't necessarily have to be the, have to rise to the level of state sponsored. Um, but can we do this in the private sector, by ourselves? What are your, what are your sort of philosophical? >>I will give you my, I will give you a statistic on this and it will, it'll be self-explanatory. But, um, 80% of our critical infrastructure in the United States is privately held. So we're unique in that perspective, we aren't like some other countries where they can just mandate the requirement that the government will control critical infrastructure. It's privately held here in the United States. So you almost have to invite the federal government to come in, even though you are a critical infrastructure, they still have to be invited to come help you. And that partnership is key in order to be able to defend yourself, but also to defend the nation. Our power grids are our water sources. I mean, you'll see those are private private companies, but we need that federal help. And I try and evangelize that partnership. I mean, you know, there's always the, um, you know, when you think about working with federal agencies, like the, like the FBI, um, there's a little bit of hesitation and you're not really quite sure. >>I will tell you that those, those men and women are, um, uh, they're amazing. They're amazing to work with they're, they're really good at what they do. And, and you're certainly it's a partnership and they have a whole division set up there's the office of the private sector is designed to have these conversations and help you prepare. And then in the unfortunate instance where you might have an attack there, right. They're trying to figure out who did that to you, you know, and, and you're a victim, you're a victim of a federal crime at that point. And they, they treat you with such care and, you know, they're, uh, they do such a great job. So I think we have to engage them in order to, and we should actually be able to help them with the technology and how, and make it easier for them to do their job, but something I'm also very interested in. >>Talk to me about your interests as the last question, in terms of what's going to go on here, we are wrapping up 2021 entering 2022, which hopefully will be a much better year for on many fronts, including the decrease in ransomware. What are some of the things that you're excited about? There's so much technology, there's so much opportunity and innovation going on with AWS and its partner ecosystem. What excites you, what opportunities do you see as we head into 2020? Yeah. >>So I do see some, I do see some threats that are going to evolve. Um, ransomware is certainly going to be more of the same until we get this out in this new methodology and what we've built until that becomes widely adopted. I think we, you know, we're not going to make a dent in the numbers that we're seeing just yet, but I'm hoping that that will change when, you know, when the industries do start to adopt that. The other thing that I'm seeing is I think operational technology is going to take a hit in 2022 because the bad guys have started to figure out how, um, you know, that, that, that, that operational technology is not as, uh, it's not front and center. And it's not top of mind for a lot of CSOs. So they're, they're targeting that weakness and going after that. So I think we really need to brace for that and, and really, uh, get in front of that. Uh, so that's one of the things that I'm prepping for is really the operational IOT conversation, and then how I can help, uh, organizations and even, even home users, you know, with some of the stuff that you've got, you know, maybe in your own home that could be used again, >>Right? Cause that work from anywhere is going to persist for quite some time. Dave, thank you so much for joining Dave Nicholson and me on the program this morning, talking about what's going on in the threat landscape ransomware, but also this monumental shift and from, from a technology and a partnership perspective that Presidio and AWS are doing to help customers and every industry, private and public sector. We appreciate your insights. Thank you >>For having me. Thanks >>For being here. Very Dave and Dave I'm Lisa you're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021 in person. So a live event, physical in-person, also virtual hybrid. So a lot of great action online, check out the website. All the videos are there on theCUBE, as well as what's going on all of the actions on site and theCUBE's here. I'm John Furrier, your host with Dave Vellante, my cohost. Finally, we've got David Brown, VP of Elastic Compute Cloud. EC2, the bread and butter. Our favorite part of Amazon. David, great to have you back on theCUBE in person. >> John, it's great to be back. It's the first time I'd been on theCUBE in person as well. A lot of virtual events with you guys, but it's amazing to be back at re:Invent. >> We're so excited for you. I know, Matt Garman and I've talked in the past. We've talked in the past. EC2 is just an amazing product. It's always been the core block of AWS. More and more action happening and developers are now getting more action and there's well, we wrote a big piece about it. What's going on? The Silicon's really paying off. You've got to also general purpose Intel and AMD, and you've got the custom silicon, all working together. What's the new update? Give us a scoop. >> Well, John, it's actually 15 years of EC2 this year and I've been lucky to be on that team for 14 years and so incredible to see the growth. It's been an amazing journey. The thing that's really driven us, two things. One is supporting new workloads. And so what are the workloads that customers have available out there trying to do on the cloud that we don't support and launch new instance types. And that's the first thing. The second one is price performance. How do we give customers more performance at a continuously decreasing price year-over-year? And that's just driven innovation across EC2 over the years with things like Graviton. All of our inferential chips are custom silicon, but also instance types with the latest Intel Ice Lake CPU's, latest Milan. We just announced the AMD Milan instance. It's just constantly innovation across the ever-increasing list of instances. So super exciting. >> So instances become the new thing. Provision an instance, spin up an instance. Instance becomes, and you can get instances, flavors, almost like flavors, right? >> David: Yeah. >> Take us through the difference between an instance and then the EC2 itself. >> That's correct, yeah. So we actually have, by end of the year, right now we have over 475 different instances available to you whether it's GPU accelerators, high-performance computing instances, memory optimized, just enormous number. We'll actually hit 500 by the end of the year, but that is it. I mean, customers are looking for different types of machines and those are the instances. >> So the Custom Silicon, it's one of the most interesting developments. We've written about it. AWS secret weapon is one of them. I wonder if you could take us back to the decision points and the journey. The Annapurna acquisition, you started working with them as a partner, then you said, all right, let's just buy the company. >> David: Yeah. >> And then now, you're seeing the acceleration, your time to tapeout is way, way compressed. Maybe what was the catalyst and maybe we can get into where it's going. >> Yeah, absolutely. Super interesting story 'cause it actually starts all the way back in 2008. In 2008, EC2 had actually been around for just a little under two years. And if you remember back then, everybody was like, will virtualize and hypervisors, specialization would never really get you the same performances, what they were calling bare metal back then. Everybody's looking at the cloud. And so we took a look at that. And I mean, network latencies, in some cases with hypervisors were as high as 200 or 300 milliseconds. And it was a number of real challenges. And so we knew that we would have to change the way that virtualization works and get into hardware. And so in 2010, 2011, we started to look at how could I offload my network processing, my IO processing to additional hardware. And that's what we delivered our first Nitro card in 2012 and 2013. We actually offloaded all of the processing of network to a Nitro card. And that Nitro card actually had a Annapurna arm chip on it. Our Nitro 1 chip. >> For the offload? >> The offload card, yeah. And so that's when my team started to code for Arm. We started to work on our Linux works for Arm. We actually had to write our own operating system initially 'cause there weren't any operating systems available we could use. And so that's what we started this journey. And over the years, when we saw how well it worked for networking, we said, let's do it for storage as well. And then we said, Hey, we could actually improve security significantly. And by 2017, we'd actually offloaded 100% of everything we did on that server to our offload cards Leaving a 100% of the server available for customers. And we're still actually the only cloud provider that does that today. >> Just to interject, in the data center today, probably 30% of the general purpose cores are used for offloads. You're saying 0% in the cloud. >> On our nitro instances, so every instance we've launched since 2017, our C5. We use 0% of that central core. And you can actually see that in our instance types. If you look at our largest instance type, you can see that we're giving you 96 cores and we're giving you, and our largest instance, 24 terabytes of memory. We're not giving you 23.6 terabytes 'cause we need some. It's all given to you as the customer. >> So much more efficient, >> Much, much more efficient, much better, better price performance as well. But then ultimately those Nitro chips, we went through Nitro 1, Nitro 2, Nitro 3, Nitro 4. We said, Hey, could we build a general purpose server chip? Could we actually bring Arm into the cloud? And in 2018, we launched the A1 instance, which was our Graviton1 instance. And what we didn't tell people at the time is that it was actually the same chip we were using on our network card. So essentially, it was a network card that we were giving to you as a server. But what it did is it sparked the ecosystem. That's why we put it out there. And I remember before launch, some was saying, is this just going to be a university project? Are we going to see people from big universities using Arm in the cloud? Was it really going to take off? And the response was amazing. The ecosystem just grew. We had customers move to it and immediately begin to see improvements. And we knew that a year later, Graviton2 was going to come out. And Graviton2 was just an amazing chip. It continues to see incredible adoption, 40% price performance improvement over other instances. >> So this is worth calling out because I think that example of the network card, I mean, innovation can come from anywhere. This is what Jassy always would say is do the experiments. Think about the impact of what's going on here. You're focused on a mission. Let's get that processing of the lowest cost, pick up some workloads. So you're constantly tinkering with tuning the engine. New discovery comes in. Nitro is born. The chip comes in. But I think the fundamental thing, and I want to get your reaction to this 'cause we've put this out there on our post on Sunday. And I said, in every inflection point, I'm old enough, my birthday was yesterday. I'm old enough to know that. >> David: I saw that. >> I'm old enough to know that in the eighties, the client server shifts. Every inflection point where development changed, the methodology, the mindset or platforms change, all the apps went to the better platform. Who wants to run their application on a slower platform? And so, and those inflects. So now that's happening now, I believe. So you got better performance and I'm imagining that the app developers are coding for it. Take us through how you see that because okay, you're offering up great performance for workloads. Now it's cloud workloads. That's almost all apps. Can you comment on that? >> Well, it has been really interesting to see. I mean, as I said, we were unsure who was going to use it when we initially launched and the adoption has been amazing. Initially, obviously it's always, a lot of the startups, a lot of the more agile companies that can move a lot faster, typically a little bit smaller. They started experimenting, but the data got out there. That 40% price performance was a reality. And not only for specific workloads, it was broadly successful across a number of workloads. And so we actually just had SAP who obviously is an enormous enterprise, supporting enterprises all over the world, announced that they are going to be moving the S/4 HANA Cloud to run on Graviton2. It's just phenomenal. And we've seen enterprises of that scale and game developers, every single vertical looking to move to Graviton2 and get that 40% price performance. >> Now we have to, as analysts, we have to say, okay, how did you get to that 40%? And you have to make some assumptions obviously. And it feels like you still have some dry powder when you looked at Graviton2. I think you were running, I don't know, it's speculated anyway. I don't know if you guys, it's your data, two and a half, 2.5 gigahertz. >> David: Yeah. >> I don't know if we can share what's going on with Graviton3, but my point is you had some dry powder and now with Graviton3, quite a range of performance, 'cause it really depends on the workload. >> David: That's right. >> Maybe you could give some insight as to that. What can you share about how you tuned Graviton3? >> When we look at benchmarking, we don't want to be trying to find that benchmark that's highly tuned and then put out something that is, Hey, this is the absolute best we can get it to and that's 40%. So that 40% is actually just on average. So we just went and ran real world workloads. And we saw some that were 55%. We saw some that were 25. It depends on what it was, but on average, it was around the 35, 45%, and we said 40%. And the great thing about that is customers come back and say, Hey, we saw 40% in this workload. It wasn't that I had to tune it. And so with Graviton3, launching this week. Available in our C7g instance, we said 25%. And that is just a very standard benchmark in what we're seeing. And as we start to see more customer workloads, I think it's going to be incredible to see what that range looks like. Graviton2 for single-threaded applications, it didn't give you that much of a performance. That's what we meant by cloud applications, generally, multi-threaded. In Graviton3, that's no longer the case. So we've had some customers report up to 80% performance improvements of Graviton2 to Graviton3 when the application was more of a single-threaded application. So we started to see. (group chattering) >> You have to keep going, the time to market is compressing. So you have that, go ahead, sorry. >> No, no, I always want to add one thing on the difference between single and multi-threaded applications. A lot of legacy, you're single threaded. So this is kind of an interesting thing. So the mainframe, migration stuff, you start to see that. Is that where that comes in the whole? >> Well, a lot of the legacy apps, but also even some of the new apps, like single threading like video transcoding, for example, is all done on a single core. It's very difficult. I mean, almost impossible to do that multi-threaded way. A lot of the crypto algorithms as well, encryption and cryptography is often single core. So with Graviton3, we've seen a significant performance boost for video encoding, cryptographic algorithms, that sort of thing, which really impacts even the most modern applications. >> So that's an interesting point because now single threaded is where the vertical use cases come in. It's not like more general purpose OS kind of things. >> Yeah, and Graviton has already been very broad. I think we're just knocking down the last few verticals where maybe it didn't support it and now it absolutely does. >> And if an ISV then ports, like an SAP's ports to Graviton, then the customer doesn't see any, I mean, they're going to see the performance difference, but they don't have to think about it. >> David: Yeah. >> They just say, I choose that instance and I'm going to get better price performance. >> Exactly, so we've seen that from our ISVs. We've also been doing that with our AWS services. So services like EMR, RDS, Elastic Cache, it will be moving and making Graviton2 available for customers, which means the customer doesn't have to do the migration at all. It's all done for them. They just pick the instance and get the price performance benefits, and so yeah. >> I think, oh, no, that was serverless. Sorry. >> Well, Lambda actually just did launch on Graviton2. And I think they were talking about a 35% price performance improvement. >> Who was that? >> Lambda, a couple of months ago. >> So what does an ISV have to do to port to Graviton. >> It's relatively straightforward, and this is actually one of the things that has slowed customers down is the, wow, that must be a big migration. And that ecosystem that I spoke about is the important part. And today, with all the Linux operating systems being available for Arm running on Graviton2, with all of the container runtimes being available, and then slowly open source applications in ISV is being available. It's actually really, really easy. And we just ran the Graviton2 four-day challenge. And we did that because we actually had an enterprise migrate one of the largest production applications in just four days. Now, I probably wouldn't recommend that to most enterprises that we see is a little too fast, but they could actually do that. >> But just from a numbers standpoint, that's insanely amazing. I mean, when you think about four days. >> Yeah. >> And when we talked on virtually last year, this year, I can't remember now. You said, we'll just try it. >> David: That's right. >> And see what happens, so I presume a lot of people have tried it. >> Well, that's my advice. It's the unknown, it's the what will it take? So take a single engineer, tell them and give them a time. Say you have one week, get this running on Graviton2, and I think the results are pretty amazing, very surprised. >> We were one of the first, if not the first to say that Arm is going to be dominant in the enterprise. We know it's dominant in the Edge. And when you look at the performance curves and the time to tape out, it's just astounding. And I don't know if people appreciate that relative to the traditional Moore's law curve. I mean, it's a style. And then when you combine the power of the CPU, the GPU, the NPU, kind of what Apple does in the iPhone, it blows away the historical performance curves. And you're on that curve. >> That's right. >> I wonder if you could sort of explain that. >> So with Graviton, we're optimizing just across every single part of AWS. So one of the nice things is we actually own that end-to-end. So when it starts with the early design of Graviton2 and Graviton3, and we obviously working on other chips right now. We're actually using the cloud to do all of the electronic design automation. So we're able to test with AWS how that Graviton3 chip is going to work long before we've even started taping it out. And so those workloads are running on high-frequency CPU's on Graviton. Actually we're using Graviton to build Graviton now in the cloud. The other thing we're doing is we're making sure that the Annapurna team that's building those CPUs is deeply engaged with my team and we're going to ultimately go and build those instances so that when that chip arrives from tapeout. I'm not waiting nine months or two years, like would normally be the case, but I actually had an instance up and running within a week or two on somebody's desk studying to do the integration. And that's something we've optimized significantly to get done. And so it allows us to get that iteration time. It also allows us to be very, very accurate with our tapeouts. We're not having to go back with Graviton. They're all A1 chips. We're not having to go back and do multiple runs of these things because we can do so much validation and performance testing in the cloud ahead of time. >> This is the epiphany of the Arm model. >> It really is. >> It's a standard. When you send it to the fab, they know what's going to work. You hit volume and it's just no fab. >> Well, this is a great thread. We'll stay on this 'cause Adam told us when we met with them for re:Invent that they're seeing a lot more visibility into use cases at the scale. So the scale gives you an advantage on what instances might work. >> And makes the economics works. >> Makes the economics work, hence the timing, the shrinking time to market, not there, but also for the apps. Talk about the scale advantage you guys have. >> Absolutely. I mean, the scale advantage of AWS plays out in a number of ways for our customers. The first thing is being able to deliver highly optimized hardware. So we don't just look at the Graviton3 CPU, you were speaking about the core count and the frequency and Peter spoke about a lot of that in his keynote yesterday. But we look at how does the Graviton3 CPU work with the rest of the instance. What is the right balance between the CPU and memory? The CPU and the Hydro. What's the performance and the drive? We just launched the Nitro SSD, which is now we've actually building our own custom SSDs for Nitro getting better performance, being able to do updates, better security, making it more cloudy. We're just saying, we've been challenged with the SSD in the parts. The other place that scales really helping is in capacity. Being able to make sure that we can absorb things like the COVID spike, or the stuff you see in the financial industry with just enormous demand for compute. We can do that because of our scale. We are able to scale. And the final area is actually in quality because I have such an enormous fleet. I'm actually able to drive down AFR. So annual failure rates, are we well below what the mathematical theoretical tenant or possibility is? So if you look at what's put on that actual sticker on the box that says you should be able to get a full percent AFR. At scale and with focus, we're actually able to get that down to significantly below what the mathematical entitlement was actually be. >> Yeah, it's incredible. I've got a great, and this is the advantage, and that's why I believe anyone who's writing applications that has includes a database, data transfer, any kind of execution of code will use the stack. >> Why would they? Really, why? We've seen this, like you said before, whether it was PC, then the fastest Pentium or somebody. >> Why would you want your app to run slower? >> Unix box, right? ISVS want it to run as fast and as cheaply as possible. Now power plays into it as well. >> Yeah, well, we do have, I agree with what you're saying. We do have a number of customers that are still looking to run on x86, but obviously customers that want windows. Windows isn't available for Arm and so that's a challenge. They'll continue to do that. And you know the way we do look at it is most law kind of died out on us in 2002, 2003. And what I'm hoping is, not necessarily bringing wars a little back, but then we say, let's not accept the 10%, 15% improvement year-over-year. There's absolutely more we can all be doing. And so I'm excited to see where the x86 world's going and they doing a lot of great stuff. Intel Ice Lakes looking amazing. Milan is really great to have an AWS as well. >> Well, I'm thinking it's fair point 'cause we certainly look what Pat's doing it at Intel and he's remaking the company. I've said he's going to follow on the Arm playbook in my mind a little bit, and which is the right thing to do. So competition is a good thing. >> David: Absolutely. >> We're excited for you and a great to see Graviton and you guys have this kind of inflection point. We've been tracking for a while, but now the world's starting to see it. So congratulations to your team. >> David: Thank you. >> Just a couple of things. You guys have some news on instances. Talk about the deprecation issue and how you guys are keeping instances alive real quick. >> Yeah, we're super customer obsessed at Amazon. And so that really drives us. And one of the worst things for us to do is to have to tell a customer that we no longer supporting a service. We recently actually just deprecated the ECG classic network. I'm not sure if you saw that and that's actually off the 10 years of continuing to support it. And the only reason we did it is we have a tiny percentage of customers still using that from back in 2012. But one of the challenges is obviously instance hardware eventually will ultimately time out and fail and have hardware issues as it gets older and older. And so we didn't want to be in a place, in EC2, where we would have to constantly go to customers and say that M1 small, that C3, whatever you were running, it's no longer supported, please move. That's just a text that customers shouldn't have to do. And if they still getting value out of an older instance, let them keep using it. So we actually just announced at re:Invent, in my keynote on Tuesday, the longevity support for EC2 instances, which means we will never come back to you again and ask you to please get off an instance, because we can actually emulate all those instances on our Nitro system. And so all of these instances are starting to migrate to Nitro. You're getting all the benefits of Nitro for now some of our older zen instances, but also you don't have to worry about that work. That's just not something you need to do to get off in all the instance. >> That's great. That's a great test service. Stay on as long as you want. When you're ready to move, move. Okay, final question for you. I know we've got time, I want to get this in. The global network, you guys are known for AWS cloud WAN serve. Gives you updates on what's going on with that. >> So Werner just announced that in his keynote and over the last two to three years or so, we've seen a lot of customers starting to use the AWS backbone, which is extensive. I mean, you've seen the slides in Werner's keynote. It really does span the world. I think it's probably one of the largest networks out there. Customers starting to use that for actually their branch office communication. So instead of going and provisioning the own international MPLS networks and that sort of thing, they say, let me onboard to AWS with VPN or direct connect, and I can actually run the AWS backbone around the world. Now doing that actually has some complexity. You got to think about transit gateways. You got to think about those inter-region peering. And AWS cloud when takes all of that complexity away, you essentially create a cloud WAN, connecting to it to VPN or direct connect, and you can even go and actually set up network segments. So essentially VLANs for different parts of the organization. So super excited to get out that out of there. >> So the ease of use is the key there. >> Massively easy to use. and we have 26 SD-WAN partners. We even partnering with folks like Verizon and Swisscom in Switzerland to telco to actually allow them to use it for their customers as well. >> We'll probably use your service someday when we have a global rollout date. >> Let's do that, CUBE Global. And then the other was the M1 EC2 instance, which got a lot of applause. >> David: Absolutely. >> M1, I think it was based on A15. >> Yeah, that's for Mac. We've got to be careful 'cause M1 is our first instance as well. >> Yeah right, it's a little confusion there. >> So it's a Mac. The EC2 Mac is with M1 silicon from Apple, which super excited to put out there. >> Awesome. >> David Brown, great to see you in person. Congratulations to you and the team and all the work you guys have done over the years. And now that people starting to realize the cloud platform, the compute just gets better and better. It's a key part of the system. >> Thanks John, it's great to be here. >> Thanks for sharing. >> The SiliconANGLE is here. We're talking about custom silicon here on AWS. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE. The global leader in tech coverage. We'll be right back with more covers from re:Invent after this break. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Dave Vellante: Okay. We're back with Mark Hill. who's the Director of IT Operations at Digital River. Mark. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a, a payment platform, you've got marketing expertise. How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago. Primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, um, physical and digital fulfillment, as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering, specializing in just our global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax, and compliance management. So our, our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally, um very quickly. And with low cost of entry. >> Yeah. It's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that, that incumbents can evolve. They can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of, of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. It was, we basically stood our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and collocated data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things worked. You know those over 10 data centers globally. for us it was expensive, well from a software hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to up to speed too. So, and it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement, does it say that we're our goal is to manage data centers? So, so about five years ago, we started the journey from our hosted into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift it and shift plan, and we were able to bleed that migration a little over two years, right. Amazon really just fit for us. It was a natural, a natural place for us to land and they made it really easy here for us to not to say it wasn't difficult, but, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision. Meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and managed relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools. Automagically, you know, with a click of the button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational tasks and, and really put our resources into revenue and generate new products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. >> Ha ha. I love that. >> That's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure right, in that, but now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our, our, our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket and we're using Kinesis to consume that data, put it in Eastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just utilizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. So. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, we were ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah. And, and so I think e-commerce has really matured, right? And so we, we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. But so we evaluated Microsoft. We evaluated AWS as well as Google. And, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we were doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at. And we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah. It makes sense. Best cloud, best, best tech. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I want to talk about ChaosSearch. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that, what does that even mean? >> Well, from, from our perspective, because they're self-managed solutions were costly and difficult to maintain, you know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that, too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that, that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points use for incident triage, problem management, problem management, trending, and other things too. So ChaosSearch has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months, or even years of data that we can use for operations, as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is an event driven architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah. You mentioned Elastic, I know I've talked to people who use the ELK Stack. They say you there's these exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days or, or less you're saying, you're not finding that with, with ChaosSearch? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we were losing out if there was a lower priority incident, for example, and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the breadcrumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah. Like my video camera down there. My, you know, my other house, somebody breaks in and I don't find out for, for two weeks and then the video's gone. That kind of same thing. >> Yep So, so, so how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and ChaosSearch specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep. And, and so there's, there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions, into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internally and externally, you know, it relieves us of that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users, who were familiar with ElasticSearch, right? It wasn't, it wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points, benefits. And, and so now that we have all this data that we're able to, to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's, that's really what it's offered. And it's, it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying that you can speak the language of Elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, so for us, just because we're running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it, is a huge benefit as well. Just, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost? Was it flexibility? Scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers. So, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our ELK Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point oh two or something, you know, anyways, it's a very old, and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks, the support risk, and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here, consolidating the data across regions. And so that was, that was a huge thing, but yeah, it was also been the cost, right? It was, we were finding it cheaper to use ChaosSearch and have more data available versus what we're doing currently in AWS. >> Got it. I wonder if you could, you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that, that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any, any metrics you can provide or even just anecdotal information. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, one coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advance features in Oracle, like partitioning materialized views, and bring in other supporting software like Informatica, Hyperion, Sbase, right? And all of these required our large team with a wide set of expertise into these separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the ChaosSearch would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of, of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment, meant that a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires little or no downtime. So, just that alone, it's a huge thing. So it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> I, you know, ChaosSearch is really interesting company to me. I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups, I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, okay, where are they going after? Are they going after a big market? How are they getting product market fit? And it seems like ChaosSearch has really looked at, hard at log analytics and kind of maybe disrupting the ELK Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So I think there's, one area would be Splunk, for example, we have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to, to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So ChaosSearch allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication. Um, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but ChaosSearch has a more easily usable one, One that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allow us to satisfy our PCR requirements too. So, but Splunk, but I think really deprecating all of our ElasticSearch environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases; Oracle and Sequel Server. So we we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not, cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that was easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to, to push our business forward. >> Yep. When you say, where the data belongs, right? It sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket, S3, leaving it there, because it's the the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's, what's interesting about ChaosSearch to me. >> Yeah, exactly. Yup. Yup. Versus the high priced storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention that the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data too in an expensive manner, so yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Copy. Create. Moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market. Now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no Sequel movement and Sequel, Sequel became the killer app. You know, it's like full circle, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff, Mark, really, really appreciate you coming on the Cube and, and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. (upbeat music) >> Okay. So that's a wrap. You know, we're seeing a new era in data and analytics. For example, we're moving from a world where data lives in a cloud object store and needs to be extracted, moved into a new data store, transformed, cleansed, structured into a schema, and then analyzed. This cumbersome and expensive process is being revolutionized by companies like ChaosSearch that leave the data in place and then interact with it in a multi-lingual fashion with tooling, that's familiar to analytic pros. You know, I see a lot of potential for this technology beyond just login analytics use cases, but that's a good place to start. You know, really, if I project out into the future, we see a trend of the global data mesh, really taking hold where a data warehouse or data hub or a data lake or an S3 bucket is just a discoverable node on that mesh. And that's governed by an automated computational processes. And I do see ChaosSearch as an enabler of this vision, you know, but for now, if you're struggling to scale with existing tools or you're forced to limit your attention because data is exploding at too rapid a pace, you might want to check these guys out. You can schedule a demo just by clicking the button on the site to do that. Or stop by the ChaosSearch booth at AWS Reinvent. The Cube is going to also be there. We'll have two sets, a hundred guests. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the Cube, your leader in high-tech coverage.