>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, beautiful cloud community, and welcome back to AWS reInvent. It is day four here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. My voice can feel it, clearly. I'm Savannah Peterson with my co-host Paul Gillin. Paul, how you doing? >> Doing fine, Savannah. >> Are your feet about where my voice is? >> Well, getting little rest here as we have back to back segments. >> Yeah, yeah, we'll keep you off those. Very excited about this next segment. We get to have a chat with one of our very favorite analysts, Keith Townsend. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Savannah Page. I'm going to use your south names, Savannah Page. Thank you for having me, Paul. Good to see you again. It's been been too long since CubeCon Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Well at that beautiful lisp, love that. Keith, how's the show been for you so far? >> It has been great. I tweeted it a couple of days ago. Amazon reInvent is back. >> Savannah: Whoo! Love that. >> 50, 60 thousand people, you know? After 40 thousand, I stop countin'. It has been an amazing show. I don't know if it's just the assignment of returning, but easily the best reInvent of the four that I've attended. >> Savannah: Love that. >> Paul: I love that we have you here because, you know, we tend to get anchored to these desks, and we don't really get a sense of what's going on out there. You've been spending the last four days traversing the floor and talking to people. What are you hearing? Are there any mega themes that are emerging? >> Keith: So, a couple of mega themes is... We were in the Allen session with Adam, and Adam bought up the idea of hybrid cloud. At the 2019 show, that would be unheard of. There's only one cloud, and that's the AWS cloud, when you're at the Amazon show. Booths, folks, I was at the VMware booth and there's a hybrid cloud sign session. People are talking about multicloud. Yes, we're at the AWS show, but the reality that most customers' environments are complex. Adam mentioned that it's hybrid today and more than likely to be hybrid in the future in Amazon, and the ecosystem has adjusted to that reality. >> Paul: Now, is that because they want sell more outposts? >> You know, outpost is definitely a part of the story, but it's a tactile realization that outposts alone won't get it. So, you know, from Todd Consulting, to Capgemini, to PWC, to many of the integrations on the show floor... I even saw company that's doing HP-UX in the cloud or on-prem. The reality is these, well, we've deemed these legacy systems aren't going anywhere. AWS announced the mainframe service last year for converting mainframe code into cloud workloads, and it's just not taking on the, I think, the way that the Amazon would like, and that's a reality that is too complex for all of it to run in the cloud. >> Paul: So it sounds like the strategy is to envelop and consume then if you have mainframe conversion services and HP-UX in the cloud, I mean, you're talking about serious legacy stuff there. >> Keith: You're talking about serious legacy stuff. They haven't de-emphasized their relationship with VMware. You know, hybrid is not a place, it is a operating model. So VMware cloud on AWS allows you to do both models concurrently if you have those applications that need layer two. You have these workloads that just don't... SAP just doesn't... Sorry, AWS, SAP in the cloud and EC2 just doesn't make financial sense. It's a reality. It's accepting of that and meeting customers where they're at. >> And all the collaboration, I mean, you've mentioned so many companies in that answer, and I think it's very interesting to see how much we're all going to have to work together to make the cloud its own operating system. Cloud as an OS came up on our last conversation here and I think it's absolutely fascinating. >> Keith: Yeah, cloud is the OS I think is a thing. This idea that I'm going to use the cloud as my base layer of abstraction. I've talked to a really interesting startup... Well actually it's a open source project cross plane of where they're taking that cloud model and now I can put my VMware vsphere, my AWS, GCP, et cetera, behind that and use that operating model to manage my overall infrastructure. So, the maturity of the market has fascinated me over the past year, year and a half. >> It really feels like we're at a new inflection point. I totally agree. I want to talk about something completely different. >> Keith: Okay. >> Because I know that we both did this challenge. So one of the things that's really inspiring quite frankly about being here at AWS reInvent, and I know you all at home don't have an opportunity to walk the floor and get the experience and get as many steps as Paul gets in, but there's a real emphasis on giving back. This community cares about giving back and AWS is doing a variety of different activations to donate to a variety of different charities. And there's a DJ booth. I've been joking. It kind of feels like you're arriving at a rave when you get to reInvent. And right next to that, there is a hydrate and help station with these reusable water bottles. This is actually firm. It's not one of those plastic ones that's going to end up in the recycled bin or the landfill. And every single time that you fill up your water bottle, AWS will donate $3 to help women in Kenya get access to water. One of the things that I found really fascinating about the activation is women in sub-Saharan Africa spend 16 million hours carrying water a day, which is a wild concept to think about, and water is heavy. Keith, my man, I know that you did the activation. They had you carrying two 20 pound jugs of water. >> Keith: For about 15 feet. It's not the... >> (laughs) >> 20 pound jugs of water, 20 gallons, whatever the amount is. It was extremely heavy. I'm a fairly sizeable guy. Six four, six five. >> You're in good shape, yeah. >> Keith: Couple of a hundred pounds. >> Yeah. >> Keith: And I could not imagine spending that many hours simply getting fresh water. We take it for granted. Every time I run the water in the sink, my family gets on me because I get on them when they leave the sink water. It's like my dad's left the light on. If you leave the water on in my house, you are going to hear it from me because, you know, things like this tickle in my mind like, wow, people walk that far. >> Savannah: That's your whole day. >> Just water, and that's probably not even enough water for the day. >> Paul: Yeah. We think of that as being, like, an 18th century phenomenon, but it's very much today in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. >> I know, and we're so privileged. For me, it was just, we work in technology. Everyone here is pretty blessed, and to do that activation really got my head in the right space to think, wow I'm so lucky. The team here, the fabulous production team, can go refill my water bottle. I mean, so simple. They've also got a fitness activation going on. You can jump on a bike, a treadmill, and if you work out for five minutes, they donate $5 to Fred Hutch up in Seattle. And that was nice. I did a little cross-training in between segments yesterday and I just, I really love seeing that emphasis. None of this matters if we're not taking care of community. >> Yeah, I'm going to go out and google Fred Hutch, and just donate the five bucks. 'Cause I'm not, I'm not. >> (laughs) >> I'll run forever, but I'm not getting on a bike. >> This from a guy who did 100 5Ks in a row last year. >> Yeah. I did 100 5Ks in a row, and I'm not doing five minutes on a bike. That's it. That's crazy, right? >> I mean there is a treadmill And they have the little hands workout thing too if you want. >> About five minutes though. >> Savannah: I know. >> Like five minutes is way longer than what you think it is. >> I mean, it's true. I was up there in a dress in sequence. Hopefully, I didn't scar any anyone on the show floor yesterday. It's still toss up. >> I'm going to take us back to back. >> Take us back Paul. >> Back to what we were talking about. I want to know what you're hearing. So we've had a lot of people on this show, a lot of vendors on the show who have said AWS is our most important cloud partner, which would imply that AWS's lead is solidifying its lead and pulling away from the pack as the number one. Do you hear that as well? Or is that lip service? >> Keith: So I always think about AWS reInvent as the Amazon victory lap. This is where they come and just thumb their noses at all the other cloud providers and just show how far ahead they're are. Werner Vogels, CTO at Amazon's keynotes, so I hadn't watched it yet, but at that keynote, this is where they literally take the victory lap and say that we're going to expose what we did four or five years ago on stage, and what we did four or five years ago is ahead of every cloud provider with maybe the exception of GCP and they're maybe three years behind. So customers are overwhelmingly choosing Amazon for these reasons. Don't get me wrong, Corey Quinn, Gardner folks, really went at Adam yesterday about Amazon had three majors outages in December last year. AWS has way too many services that are disconnected, but from the pure capability, I talked to a born in the cloud data protection company who could repatriate their data protection and storage on-prem private data center, save money. Instead, they double down on Amazon. They're using, they modernize their application and they're reduced their cost by 60 to 70%. >> Massive. >> This is massive. AWS is keeping up with customers no matter where they're at on the spectrum. >> Savannah: I love that you use the term victory lap. We've had a lot of folks from AWS here up on the show this week, and a couple of them have said they live for this. I mean, and it's got to be pretty cool. You've got 70 thousand plus people obsessed with your product and so many different partners doing so many different things from the edge to hospital to the largest companies on earth to the Israeli Ministry of Defense we were just talking about earlier, so everybody needs the cloud. I feel like that's where we're at. >> Keith: Yeah, and the next step, I think the next level opportunity for AWS is to get to that analyst or that citizen developer, being able to enable the end user to use a lambda, use these data services to create new applications, and the meanwhile, there's folks on the show floor filling that gap that enable develop... the piece of owner, the piece of parlor owner, to create a web portal that compares his prices and solutions to other vendors in his area and adjust dynamically. You go into a restaurant now and there is no price menu. There's a QR code that Amazon is powering much of that dynamic relationship between the restaurateur, the customer, and even the menu and availability. It's just a wonderful time. >> I always ask for the print menu. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. You want the printed menu. >> Look down, my phone doesn't work. >> Gimme something I could shine my light on. >> I know you didn't have have a chance to look at Vogel's keynote yet, but I mean you mentioned citizen developer. One of the things they announced this morning was essentially a low code lambda interface. So you can plug, take your lamb dysfunctions and do drag and drop a connection between them. So they are going after that market. >> Keith: So I guess I'll take my victory lap because that was my prediction. That's where Amazon's next... >> Well done, Keith. >> Because Lambda is that thing when you look at what server list was and the name of the concept of being, not having to have to worry about servers in your application development, the logical next step, I won't take too much of a leap. That logical first step is, well, code less code. This is something that Kelsey Hightower has talked about a lot. Low code, no code, the ability to empower people without having these artificial barriers, learning how to code in a different language. This is the time where I can go to Valencia, it's pronounced, where I can go to Valencia and not speak Spanish and just have my phone. Why can't we do, at business value, for people who have amazing ideas and enable those amazing ideas before I have to stick a developer in between them and the system. >> Paul: Low-code market is growing 35% a year. It's not surprising, given the potential that's out there. >> And as a non-technical person, who works in technology, I've been waiting for this moment. So keep predicting this kind of thing, Keith. 'Cause hopefully it'll keep happening. Keith, I'm going to give you the challenge we've been giving all of our guests this week. >> Keith: Okay. >> And I know you're going to absolutely crush this. So we are looking for your 32nd Instagram real, sizzle hot take, biggest takeaway from this year's show. >> So 32nd Instagram, I'll even put it on TikTok. >> Savannah: Heck yeah. >> Hybrid cloud, hybrid infrastructure. This is way bigger than Amazon. Whether we're talking about Amazon, AWS, I mean AWS's solutions, Google Cloud, Azure, OCI, on-prem. Customers want it all. They want a way to manage it all, and they need the skill and tools to enable their not-so-growing work force to do it. That is, that's AWS reInvent 2019 to 2022. >> Absolutely nailed it. Keith Townsend, it is always such a joy to have you here on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us >> Savannah Page. Great to have you. Paul, you too. You're always a great co-host. >> (laughs) We co-hosted for three days. >> We've got a lot of love for each other here. And we have even more love for all of you tuning into our fabulous livestream from AWS reInvent Las Vegas, Nevada, with Paul Gillin. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three of the cube coverage here at VMware VMware Explorer, not world 12 years. The Cube's been covering VMware is end user conference this year. It's called explore previously world. We got two great guests, friends of the cube friend, cube, alumni and cloud rod, Keith Townson, principal CTO advisor, air streaming his way into world this year in a big way. Congratulations. And course James Erhard principal technology, a at tan zoo cloud ARA. He's been in cloud game for a long time. We've known each other for a long, long time, even before cloud was cloud. So great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >>Ah, it's a pleasure, always happy to >>Be here. So day threes are kind of like riff. I'll throw out super cloud. You guys will, will trash it. We'll debate. It'll be controversial and say this damage done by the over rotation of developer experience. We'll defend Tansu, but really the end of the game is, is that guys, we have been on the cloud thing for a long time. We're we're totally into it. And we've been saying infrastructure is code as the end state. We want to get there. Right? DevOps and infrastructure is code has always been the, the, the underlying fire burning in, in all the innovation, but it's now getting legitimately enterprised it's adopted in, in, in large scale, Amazon web services. We saw that rise. It feels we're in another level right now. And I think we're looking at this new wave coming. And I gotta say, you know, the Broadcom thing has put like an electric shock syndrome into this ecosystem cuz they don't know what's gonna happen next. So as a result, everyone's kind of gotta spring in their step a little, whether it's nervous, energy or excitement around something happening, it's all cloud native. So, you know, as VMware's got such a great investment in cloud native, but yet multi cloud's the story. Right? So, so messaging's okay. So what's happening here? Like guys let's, let's break it down. You're on the show floor of the Airstream you're on the inside, but with the seeing the industry, James will start with you what's happening this year with cloud next level and VMware's future. >>Yeah, I think the big thing that is happening is that we are beginning to see the true separation of capacity delivery from capacity consumption in computing. And what I mean by that is the, the abstractions that sort of bled between the idea of a server and the idea of an application have sort of become separated much better. And I think Kubernetes is, is the strong evidence of that. But also all of the public cloud APIs are strong evidence of that. And VMware's APIs, frankly, before that we're strong evidence of that. So I think what's, what's starting to happen now then is, is developers have really kind of pulled very far away from, from anything other than saying, I need compute, I need network. I need storage. And so now you're seeing the technologies that say, well, we've figured out how to do that at a team level, like one team can automate an application to an environment, but another team will, you know, other teams, if I have hundreds of teams or, or thousands of applications, how do I handle that? And that's what the excitement I think is right >>Now. I mean the, the developer we talking, we're going on camera before you came on camera Keith around, you know, your contr statement around the developer experience. Now we, I mean, I believe that the cloud native development environment is doing extremely well right now. You talk to, you know, look around the industry. It's, it's at an all time high and relative to euphoria, you know, sit on the beach with sunglasses. You couldn't be better if you were a developer open source, booming, everything's driving to their doorstep, self service. They're at the center of the security conversation, which shift left. Yeah. There's some things there, but it's, it's a good time. If you're a developer now is VMware gonna be changing that and, and you know, are they gonna meet the developers where they are? Are they gonna try to bring something new? So these are conversations that are super important. Now VMware has a great install base and there's developers there too. So I think I see their point, but, but you have a take on this, Keith, what's your, what's your position on this? How do the developer experience core and tangential played? >>Yeah, we're I think we're doing a disservice to the industry and I think it's hurting and, or D I think I'm gonna stand by my statement. It's damaging the in industry to, to an extent VMware >>What's damaging to the >>Industry. The focusing over focusing on developer experience developer experience is super important, but we're focusing on developer experience the, the detriment of infrastructure, the infrastructure to deliver that developer experience across the industry isn't there. So we're asking VMware, who's a infrastructure company at core to meet the developer where the developer, the developer is at today with an infrastructure that's not ready to deliver on the promise. So when we're, when NetApp is coming out with cool innovations, like adding block storage to VMC on AWS, we collectively yawn. It's an amazing innovation, but we're focused on, well, what does that mean for the developer down the road? >>It should mean nothing because if it's infrastructure's code, it should just work, right. >>It should just work, but it doesn't. Okay. >>I see the damage there. The, >>The, when you're thinking, oh, well I should be able to just simply provide Dr. Service for my on-prem service to this new block level stores, because I can do that in a enterprise today. Non-cloud, we're not there. We're not at a point where we can just write code infrastructure code and that happens. VMware needs the latitude to do that work while doing stuff like innovating on tap and we're, you know, and then I think we, we, when buyers look at what we say, and we, we say VMware, isn't meeting developers where they're at, but they're doing the hard work of normalizing across clouds. I got off a conversation with a multi-cloud customer, John, the, the, the, the unicorn we all talk about. And at the end I tried to wrap up and he said, no, no, no way. I gotta talk about vRealize. Whoa, you're the first customer I heard here talk about vRealize and, and the importance of normalizing that underlay. And we just don't give these companies in this space, the right >>Latitude. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to rock a little bit what you're saying. So from my standpoint, generically speaking, okay. If I'm a, if the developers are key to the, to the cloud native role, which I, I would say they are, then if I'm a developer and I want, and I want infrastructure as code, I'm not under the hood, I'm not getting the weeds in which some lot people love to do. I wanna just make things work. So meet me where I'm at, which means self-service, I don't care about locking someone else should figure that problem out, but I'm gonna just accelerate my velocity, making sure it's secure. And I'm moving on being creative and doing my thing, building apps. Okay. That's the kind of the generic, generic statement. So what has to happen in your mind to >>Get there? Yeah. Someone, someone has to do the dirty work of making the world move as 400, still propagate the data center. They're still H P X running SAP, E there's still, you know, 75% of the world's transactions happen through SAP. And most of that happens on bare metal. Someone needs to do the plumbing to give that infrastructure's cold world. Yeah. Someone needs to say, okay, when I want to do Dr. Between my on premises edge solution and the public cloud, someone needs to make it invisible to the Kubernetes, the, the Kubernetes consuming that, that work isn't done. Yeah. It >>Is. It's an >>Opportunity. It's on paper. >>It's an opportunity though. It's not, I mean, we're not in a bad spot. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is that there's a lot of fix a lot of gaps. All right. I want Jay, I wanna bring you in, because we had a panel at super cloud event. Chris Hoff, you know, beaker was on here. Yeah. He's always snarky, but he's building, he's been building clouds lately. So he's been getting his, his hands dirty, rolling up his sleeves. The title of panel was originally called the innovators dilemma with a question, mark, you know, haha you know, innovators, dilemma, little goof on that. Cuz you know, there's challenges and trade offs like, like he's talking about, he says we should call it the integrator's dilemma because I think a lot of people are talking about, okay, it's not as seamless as it can be or should be in the Nirvana state. >>But there's a lot of integration going on. A lot of APIs are, are key to this API security. One of the most talked about things. I mean I interviewed six companies on API security in the past couple months. So yeah. I mean I never talked to anybody about API security before this year. Yeah. APIs are critical. So these key things of cloud are being attacked. And so there's more complexity as we're getting more successful. And so, so I think this is mucking up some of the conversations, what's your read on this to make the complexity go away. You guys have the, the chaos rain here, which I actually like that Dave does too, but you know, Andy Grove once said let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. So we're in that reign in the chaos mode. Now what's your take on what Keith was saying around. Yeah. >>So I think that the one piece of the puzzle that's missing a little bit from Keith's narrative that I think is important is it's really not just infrastructure and developers. Right? It's it's there's in fact, and, and I, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago, right? There's there's really sort of three layers of operations that come out of the cloud model in long term and that's applications and infrastructure at the bottom and in the middle is platform and services. And so I think one of the, this is where VMware is making its play right now is in terms of providing the platform and service capability that does that integration at a lower level works with VMs works with bare metal, works with the public cloud services that are available, makes it easy to access things like database services and messaging services and things along those lines. >>It makes it easy to turn code that you write into a service that can be consumed by other applications, but ultimately creates an in environment that begins to pull away from having to know, to write code about infrastructure. Right. And so infrastructure's, code's great. But if you have a right platform, you don't have to write code about infrastructure. You can actually D declare what basic needs of the application are. And then that platform will say, okay, well I will interpret that. And that's really, that's what Kubernetes strength is. Yeah. And that's what VMware's taking advantage of with what we're doing >>With. Yeah. I remember when we first Lou Tucker and I, and I think you might have been in the room during those OpenStack days and when Kubernetes was just starting and literally just happened, the paper was written, gonna go out and a couple companies formed around it. We said that could be the interoperability layer between clouds and our, our dream at that time was Hey. And, and we, we mentioned and Stratus in our, our super cloud, but the days of spanning clouds, a dream, we thought that now look at Kubernetes. Now it's kind of become that defacto rallying moment for, I won't say middleware, but this abstraction that we've been talking about allows for right once run anywhere. I think to me, that's not nowhere in the market today. Nobody has that. Nobody has anything that could write once, read one, write once and then run on multiple clouds. >>It's more true than ever. We had one customer that just was, was using AKs for a while and then decided to try the application on EKS. And they said it took them a couple of hours to, to get through the few issues they ran into. >>Yeah. I talked to a customer who who's going from, who went from VMC on AWS to Oracle cloud on Oracle cloud's VMware solution. And he raved about now he has a inherent backup Dr. For his O CVS solution because there's a shim between the two. And >>How did he do >>That? The, there there's a solution. And this is where the white space is. James talked about in the past exists. When, when I go to a conference like Cuban, the cube will be there in, in Detroit, in, in, in about 45 days or so. I talk to platform group at the platform group. That's doing the work that VMware red had hash Corp all should be doing. I shouldn't have to build that shim while we rave and, and talk about the power Kubernetes. That's great, but Kubernetes might get me 60 to 65% of their, for the platform right now there's groups of developers within that sit in between infrastructure and sit in between application development that all they do is build platforms. There's a lot of opportunity to build that platform. VMware announced tap one, 1.3. And the thing that I'm surprised, the one on Twitter is talking about is this API discovery piece. If you've ever had to use an API and you don't know how to integrate with it or whatever, and now it, it just magically happens. The marketing at the end of developing the application. Think if you're in you're, you're in a shop that develops hundreds of applications, there's thousands or tens of thousands of APIs that have to be documented. That's beating the developer where it's at and it's also infrastructure. >>Well guys, thanks for coming on the cube. I really appreciate we're on a time deadline, which we're gonna do more. We'll follow up on a power panel after VMware Explorer. Thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate it. No problem. See you pleasure. Yeah. Okay. We'll be back with more live coverage. You, after this short break, stay with us.

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(bright music) (logo whooshing) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBEs continuing coverage of AWS 2021. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. We are excited to be running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events of the year with AWS and its ecosystem partners. We have two live sets, two remote studios, we've got over a hundred guests on the program, and we're going to be talking about the next decade of cloud innovation. We are pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the program, Rob Lee, the CTO of Pure Storage. Rob, thank you so much for joining us today. >> Good to see you again, Lisa, and thanks for having me. >> Likewise and I was stalking you on LinkedIn. Looks like you've got a promotion since I last saw you. Congratulations >> Thank you. >> on your appointment as a CTO. >> No, thank you very much. Very excited to be taking the reins and for all the great stuff that's ahead of us. >> Lot of great stuff, I'm sure. I also saw that once again, Pure has been named a leader in several gartner magic quadrants for primary storage, for distributed file storage, and object storage. Lots of great things continuing to go on from the orange side. Let's talk about hybrid. I've seen so much transformation and acceleration in the last 20 plus months, but I'd love to see what you guys are seeing with respect to your customers and their hybrid cloud strategies. What problems are they in this dynamic day and age are they looking to solve? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, all in all, I think, you know, customers are definitely maturing in their understanding and approach to all things around cloud. And I think when it comes to their approach towards hybrid cloud, one of the things that we're seeing is that customers are really, you know, focusing extra hard and just trying to make sure that they're making the best use of all their IT tools. And what that means is, you know, not just looking at hybrid cloud as a way to connect from on-prem to the cloud, but really being able to make use of and make the most use out of each, you know, each of the services and capabilities of the environments that they're operating in. And so a lot of times that means, you know, commonality in how they're operating, whether it's on-premise or in cloud, it means the flexibility that that commonality allows them in terms of planning and optionality to move parts of their application or environments between premise and cloud. You know, and I think overall, you know, we look at this as, you know, really a couple specific forces that customers are looking for. One is, you know, I think they're looking for ways to bring a lot more of the operating model and what they're used to in the cloud, into their own data center. And at the same time, they're looking to be able to bridge more of how they operate the applications they're powering and running in their own data centers today and be able to bridge and bring those into the cloud environments. And then lastly, I'd say that, you know, as customers, I think, you know, today are kind of one foot in their more traditional application environments and the other foot largely planted in developing and building some of their newer applications built on cloud native technologies and architectures driven by containers and Kubernetes, you know, a big focus area for customers, whether it's on-prem or in cloud or increasingly hybrid is, you know, supporting and enabling those cloud native application development projects. And that's certainly an area that you've seen Pure focus in as well. And so I think it's really those three things. One is customers looking for ways to bring more of the cloud model into their data center, two is being able to bring more of what they're running in their data center into the cloud today, and then three is building their new stuff and increasingly planning to run that across multiple environments, prem, cloud, and across clouds. >> So, Rob, talk to me about where Pure fits in the hybrid cloud landscape that your customers are facing in this interesting time we're living in. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, we're really focused on meeting customer's needs in all three of the areas that I just articulated and so this starts with bringing more of the cloud operating model into customers' data centers. And, you know, we start by focusing on, you know, automation, simplicity of management, delivering infrastructure as code, a lot of the attributes that customers are used to in a cloud environment. In many ways, as you know, this is a natural evolution of where Pure has been all along. We started by bringing a lot of the consumer-like simplicity into our products and enterprise data centers. And now, we're just kind of expanding that to bring more of the cloud simplicity in. You know, we're also, this is an area where we're working with our public cloud partners such as AWS in embracing their management models. And so you saw, you know, you saw us do this as a storage launch partner for AWS Outposts and that activity is certainly continuing on. So customers that are looking for cloud-like management, whether they want to build that themselves and customize it to their needs or whether they want to simply use cloud providers management plans and extend those onto their premise, have both options to do that. You know, we're also, as you know, very committed to helping customers be able to move or bridge their traditional applications from their data center into the public cloud environments through products like Cloud Block Store. This is an area where we've helped numerous customers, you know, take the existing applications and more importantly, the processes and how the environments are set up and run that they're used to running in their data center production environments bridge those now into public cloud environments. And whether that's in AWS or in Microsoft Azure as well. And then thirdly with Portworx, right? This is where, you know, we're really focused on helping customers, not just by providing them with the infrastructure they need to build their containerized cloud native applications on, but then also marrying with that infrastructure, that storage infrastructure, the data flow operations such as backup, TR, migration that go along with that storage infrastructure, as well as now application management capabilities, which we recently announced during our launch event in September with Portworx Data Services. So really a lot of activities going on across the board, but I would say definitely focused on those three key areas that we see customers really looking to crack as they, I would say balance the cloud environments and their data center environments in this hybrid world. >> And I'm curious what you're saying, you know, the focus being on data. >> Customers, you know, definitely recognize the data is their lifeblood is kind of, you know, contains a lot of the, you know, the value that they're looking to extract, whether it's in a competitive advantage, whether it's in better understanding their customers, you know, and or whether it's in product development, faster time to market. I think that, you know, we're definitely seeing more of an elevated realization and appreciation for not just how valuable that it is, but, you know, how much gravity it holds, right? You know, customers that are realizing, "Hey, if I'm collecting all this data in my on-prem location, maybe it's not quite that feasible or sensible to ship all that data into a public cloud environment to process. Maybe I need to kind of look at how I build my hybrid strategy around data being generated here, services living over here, and how do I bridge those two, you know, two locations." I think you add on top of that, you know, newer, I would say realization of security and data governance, data privacy concerns. And that certainly has customers, I think, you know, thinking a lot more intently about, you know, their data management, not just their data collection and data processing and analysis strategy, but their overall data managements, governance, and security strategies. >> Yeah, we've talked a lot about security in this interesting time that we're living in. The threat landscape has changed massively. Ransomware is a household word and it's a matter of when versus if. As customers are looking at these challenges that they're combating, how are you helping them address those data security concerns as they know that, you know, we've got this work from anywhere that's hybrid work environment, that's going to process for probably some time, but that security and ensuring that the data that's driving the revenue chain is secure and accessible, but protected no matter where it is? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think you said it best when you said it's a matter of when, not if, right? And I think, you know, we're really focused on helping customers plan for and have, you know, plan for it and have a very quick reaction remediation strategy, right? So, you know, customers that I would say historically have focused on perimeter security have focused on preventing an attack, and that's great, and you need to do that, but you also need to plan for, hey, if something happens where, you know, as we just said, when something happens, what is your strategy for remediating that, what is your strategy for getting back online very quickly? And so this is an area where, you know, we've helped countless customers, you know, form robust strategies for, you know, true disaster recovery from a security or ransomware since. We do this by through our safe mode features, which are available across all of our products. And, you know, quite simply, this is our capability to take read-only snapshots and then couple them with a heightened level of security that effectively locks these snapshots down and takes the control of the snapshots away from not just customer admins, but potential ransomware or malware, right? You know, if you look at the most recent ransomware attacks that have hit the industry, they've gotten more and more sophisticated where the first action, a lot of these ransomware pieces of software taking are going after the backups. They go after the backups first and they take down the production environment. Well, we stopped that chain or in the security world what's called the kill chain, we stopped that chain right at the first step by protecting those backups in a way that, you know, no customer admin, whether it's a true admin, a malicious admin, or a piece of software, a malware that's acting as an admin, has the ability to remove that backup. And, you know, that's a capability that's actually become one of our most popular and most quickly adopted features across the portfolio. >> That's key. I saw that. I was reading some reports recently about the focus of ransomware on backups and the fact that you talked about it, it's becoming more sophisticated. It's also becoming more personal. So as data volumes continue to grow and companies continue to depend on data as competitive advantage differentiators and, of course, a source of driving revenue, ensuring that the backups are protected, and the ability to recover quickly is there is that is table stakes, I imagine for any organization, regardless of industry. >> Absolutely, and I think, you know, I think overall, if we look at just the state of data protection, whether it's protecting against security threats or whether it's protecting against, you know, infrastructure failures or whatnot, I would say that the state of data protection has evolved considerably over the last five years, right? You go back 5, 10 years and people are really fixated on, "Hey, how quickly can I back here? How quickly can I back this environment up, and how can I do it in a most cost-effective manner?" Now people are much more focused on, "Hey, when something goes wrong, whether it's a ransomware attack, whether it's a hurricane that takes out a data center, I don't really care what it is." When something goes wrong, how quickly can I get back online because chances are, you know, every customer now is running an online service, right? Chances are, you've got customers waiting for you. You've got SLAs, you've got transactions that can't complete if you don't get this environment back up. And we've seen this, you know, throughout the industry over the last couple of years. And so, you know, I think that maturing understanding of what true data protection is is something that has A, driven, you know, a new approach from customers to and a new focus on this area of their infrastructure. And B I think it is also, you know, found a new place for, you know, performance and reliability, but really all of it, the properties of, you know, Pures products in this space. >> Last question, Rob, for you, give me an example, you can just mention it by industry or even by use case of a joint AWS Pure customer where you're really helping them create a very successful enterprise-grade hybrid cloud environment? >> Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, so we've got countless customers that, you know, I could point to. You know, I think one that I would or one space that we're particularly successful in that I would highlight are, you know, SAS companies, right? So companies that are, you know, are building modern SAS applications. And in one particular example I can think of is, you know, a gaming platform, right? So this is a company that is building out a scale-out environment, you know, is a very rapidly growing startup. And certainly is looking to AWS, looking to the public cloud environments, you know, as a great place to scale. But at the same time, you know, needs more capabilities than, you know, are available in the container storage for, you know, infrastructure that was available in the public cloud environment. They need more capabilities to be able to offer this global service. They need more capabilities to, you know, really provide the 24 by 7 by 365 around the world service that they have, especially dealing with high load bursts in different GEOS and just a very, very dynamic global environment. And so this is an area where, you know, we've been able to, you know, help the customer with Portworx. Be able to provide these capabilities by augmenting that AWS or the cloud environment is able to offer, you know, with the storage level replication and high availability and all of the enterprise capabilities, autoscaling, performance management, all the capabilities that they need to be able to bridge the service across multiple regions, multiple environments, and, you know, potentially over time, you know, on-premise data center locations as well. So that's just one of many examples, you know, but I think that's a great example where, you know, as customers are starting out, the public cloud is a great place to kind of get started. But then as you scale, whether it's because of bursty load, whether it's because of a data volume, whether it's because of compute volume and capacity, you know, customers are looking for either more capabilities, you know, more connectivity to other sites, potentially other cloud environments or data center environments. And that's where a more environment or cloud agnostic infrastructure layer such as Portworx is able to provide comes in very handy. >> Got it. Rob, thanks so much for joining me on the program today at re:Invent, talking about the Pure AWS relationship, what's going on there and how you're helping customers navigate, and then a very fast-paced, accelerating hybrid world. We appreciate you coming back on the program. >> Great, thanks for having me. Good to see you again. >> Likewise. Good to see you too. Per Rob Lee, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBES continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. (calm music)

>> Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, is modernize now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi mayor him, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >> Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >> I want to ask you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some of your comments, you got to be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile, edge. Those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >> Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that so far it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where that tipping point and that tipping point has been more because of COVID and there are COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living in a in a sort of occasionally connected manner where our digital interactions precede, our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact. That does really been the sort of accelerant to this modernize Now, as a team. In this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. They're all sitting behind. They used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, but they are all centralized still, but where our engagement happens with the data is at the edge at your point of convenience, at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? But it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be there, if you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you're sitting, but doing something in your while you're traveling, or whether you're in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you and be available, as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, transitioning their old applications to the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Otherwise, people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem was actually, the data is not where you are engaging with it. It's got to be fetched, you know, seven sea's away. And that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >> I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but with the distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, of, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? >> Yes. So there are two issues that you alluded little too over there. The first is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data. In one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five milliseconds, this is, this is a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do solid queries. Our classic SQL queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional SQL. The SQL has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and tried to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only SQL has stood the test of time of 40 odd years. Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is basically a look at the data and any common editorial, any, any which way you look at the data, all it will come, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries select star from where, kind of stuff, because it's at an English level becomes easy to so the same day that you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your sort of transformation of the data and all the stuff, same day that you do this. Now that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, what Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the, your ability to query the operational data in a different way. And talk querying, what was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and apply different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, the database management system. And that's where the distributed platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in the classic way we call it CDN'ing the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >> And on the first part of, of the, the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without scheme with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >> Fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read thing. So, because there is no schema, it is just a Json document that is sitting inside. And Json is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Json that we manage, you can do key value look ups of the Json. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. You can do searching on it, using the, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc webbing on the analytics side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using or inventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Json. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, bring, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing in the last 40 years, because we developed various database systems and data processing systems at various points in time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. We had queuing systems, all these systems, if you want to use any one of them are answered. It always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this, it's not going to fly instead, bring the logic to the data, right? So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this. >> But as you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >> Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data recasting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at, at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably related, but it not really, how do you say keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I mean, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it. And you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, like we were discussing, you have ACID semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but we have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >> So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged databases. You kind of led Couchbase through that. I, I want, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, and it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, where you have have a little teeny scissors and a knife, that's not that sharp. How, how do you respond to that? >> A great one. My answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, and is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? - No. No. >> Nobody does. That because it actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Right? As in a moment, it could be a TomTom, telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. Third one. It's a fantastic phone. Four. It's a beautiful camera which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment, it's the video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just thought that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, he missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app based economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get an alert saying that today you got to leave home at >> 8: 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's got this notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place. Without that, you couldn't even do this simple function in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build. Because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, integrating data from one system to the other. >> So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? So, so, but, but is there, is that a fair and where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting. >> Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's like, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of my music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they, I mean, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file-ness of your, I mean, your experience super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist. But even there that has got to be very closed. How do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that all, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car, walk into my living room, that same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a connected world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >> I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Tweeter, et cetera. And we used to play around with three, take home, big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. And now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi? >> I believe so, because I think what had happened was relational systems. I've mean where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years and then gain this no SQL movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhabited because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee. They required your DBA and your data architect. And you had to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was a world of blogs and tweets and, you know, mashups and a different generation of digital behavior, There are digital, native people now who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, in the other, the other side of the divide. So out came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually the problem was never SQL. No SQL was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like airplanes, which is that if a San Francisco, Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the allowance that you'll somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. These are all vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world is make the system horizontally scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guest. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this here is that, and we are super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have, I need only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multidimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it, right? So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that architecture important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because, you would say that I cannot run this analytical query because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my front end, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. They'll solve the same data once again, do analytical query, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we, we fence the, the, the resources so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or a query. And then yet you can run this analytical query, which will take a couple of minutes to them. One, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the part of the problems that we have solved it here is that relational versus the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same query language on top. Why? It's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, the internal combustion engine the gas, you says, these were the issues we really wanted to solve. So solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, over there your gear shifters. Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So even when you feed people, the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blow harder to go fast. And they lean back for, for it to, you know, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define design software. Instead, we shouldn't be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, and the gas pedal and the, and the gear shifters by putting SQL back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved the relational limitations of schema, as well as scalability. So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic ACID capabilities, which is what relational systems we accounted on, and being able to do that with the SQL programming language, we call it like multi-statement SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up to solve in the modern times, rather than get sort of pedantic about whether it's we have no SQL or SQL or new SQL, or, you know, any of that sort of jargon oriented debate. This is, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, and they were the solve, and they have solved them with the latest release of 7.0, which we released a few months ago. >> Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got got to leave it there. I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face-to-face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >> Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the opportunity I was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. - Thank you. >> Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>> - From around the globe, it's the cube covering data citizens, 21 brought to you by Collibra. >> Hello, everyone, John Walls here, As we continue our cube conversations here as part of data citizens, 21, the conference ongoing. Collibra at the heart of that, really at the heart of data these days and helping companies and corporations make sense. Although this data chaos that they're dealing with, trying to provide new insights, new analysis being a lot more efficient and effective with your data. That's what Collibra is all about. And their founder and their chief data citizen, if you will, Stan Christiaens joins us today. And Stan, I love that title, chief data citizen. What does that all about? What does that mean? >> Hey John, thanks for having me over. And hopefully we'll get to a point where the chief data citizen Titelist cleaves to you. Thanks by the way, for giving us the opportunity to speak a little bit about what we're doing with our chief data citizen. We started the company about 13 years ago, 2008. And over those years, as a founder I've worn many different hats from product to pre-sales to partnerships and a bunch of obvious things. But ultimately the company reaches a certain point a certain size where systems and processes become absolutely necessary if you want to scale further. And for us, this is the moment in time where we said, okay we probably need a data office right now ourselves, something that we've seen with many of our customers. So we said, okay, let me figure out how to lead our own data office and figured out how we can get value out of data using our own software at Collibra itself. And that's where the chief data citizen role comes in. On Friday evening, we like to call that drinking our own champagne moment morning, either eating our own dog food but, essentially this is what we help our customers do, build out the data offices. So we're doing this ourselves now, when we're very hands-on. So there's a lot of things that we're learning, again just like our customers do. And for me, at Collibra, this means that I'm responsible as a chief data citizen for our overall data strategy, which talks a lot about data products, as well as our data infrastructure, which is needed to power data products. Now, because we're doing this in the company and also doing this in a way that is helpful to our customers. We're also figuring out how do we translate the learnings that we have ourselves and give them back to our customers, to our partners, to the broader ecosystem as a whole. And that's why if you summarize the strategy, I like to sometimes refer to it as data office 2025, it's 2025. What is the data office look like by then? And we recommend to our customers to also have that forward looking view just as well. So if I summarize the, the answer a little bit and it's fairly similar to achieve that officer role but, because it has the external evangelization component, helping other data leaders, we like to refer to it as the chief data citizens. >> Yeah, and that, that kind of, you talked about evangelizing, obviously with that, that you're talking about certain kinds of responsibilities and obligations. And I, when I think of citizenship in general I think about privileges and rights and you know, about national citizenship. You're talking about data citizenship, So I assume that with that you're talking about appropriate behaviors and the most well-defined behaviors, and kind of keeping it between the lanes basically. Is that, is that how you look at being a data citizen or, and if not, how would you describe that to a client about being a data citizen? >> It's a very good point, as a citizen you have rights and responsibilities, and the same is exactly true for a data citizen. For us, starting with what it is, right for us, A data citizen is somebody who uses data to do their job. And we've purposely made that definition very broad because today we believe that everyone in some way uses data to do their job. You know, data is universal. It's critical to business processes and it's importance is only increasing. And we want all the data citizens to have appropriate access to data and the ability to do stuff with data but, also to do that in the right way. And if you think about it this is not just something that applies to you in your job but, also extends beyond the workplace because as a data citizen, you're also a human being, of course. So, the way you do data at home with your friends and family, all of this becomes important as well. And we like to think about it as informed privacy aware, data citizens should think about trust in data all the time, because ultimately everybody's talking today about data as an asset, and data is the new gold, and the new oil, and the new soil, and there is a ton of value in data but, as much as organizations themselves to see this, it's also the bad actors out there. We're reading a lot more about data breaches, for example. So, ultimately there's no value without risk. So, as a data citizen, you can achieve a value but, you also have to think about, how do I avoid these risks, and as an organization, if you manage to combine both of those, that's when you can get the maximum value out of data in a trusted manner. >> Yeah, I think this is pretty, an interesting approach that you've taken here because obviously there there are processes with regard to data, right? I mean, the, you know, that that's pretty clear but, there are also, there's a culture that you're talking about here that, that not only are we going to have an operational plan for how we do this certain activity and how we're going to analyze here, input here, action, or perform action on that, whatever but we're going to have a mindset or an approach mentally that we want our company to embrace. So, if you would walk me through that process a little bit in terms of creating that kind of culture, which is very different than kind of the X's and O's and the technical side of things. >> Yeah. That's I think when organizations face the biggest challenge, because, you know maybe they're hiding the best most unique data scientists in the world but, it's not about what that individual can do, right? It's about what the combination of data citizens across the organization can do. And I think it starts first by thinking as an individual about universal goal, golden rule, treat others as you would want to be treated yourself, right? The way you would ethically use data at your job. Think about that, There's other people at other companies, who you would want to do the same thing. Now, from our experience, in our own data office at Collibra, as well as what we see with our customers. A lot of that personal responsibility which is where culture starts, starts with data literacy. And, you know, we talked a little bit about Plymouth rock and the small statues in Brussels Belgium, where I'm from but, essentially here we speak a couple of languages in Belgium. And for organizations, for individuals data literacy is very similar. You know, you're able to read and write which are pretty essential for any job today. And so we want all data citizens to also be able to speak and read and write data fluently. If I, if I can express it this way. And one of the key ways of getting that done and establishing that culture around data, lies with the one who leads data in the organization, the chief data officer, or however the role is called. They play a very important role in this. In comparison, maybe that I always make there is think about other assets in your organization. You know, you're organized for the money assets, for the talent assets, with HR and a bunch of other assets. So let's talk about the, the money assets for a little bit, right? You have a finance department, you have a chief financial officer, and obviously their responsibility is around managing that money asset. But it's also around making others in the organization think about that money. And they do that through established processes and responsibilities like budgeting and planning but, also ultimately to the individual where, you know, through expense sheets that we all love so much, they make you think about money. So, if the CFO makes everyone in the company thinks about think about money, that data officer, or the data lead, has to think, has to make everyone think in the company about data assets, asset, just as well. And those rights, those responsibilities in that culture, they also change, right? Today, they're set this and this way because of privacy and policy X and Y and Z. But tomorrow, for example, as, as with the European union's new regulation around BI, there's a bunch of new responsibilities you'll have to think about. >> You mentioned security and about value and risk, which is certainly, they are part and parcel, right? If I have something important I've got to protect it because somebody else might want to, to create some damage, some harm and and steal my value, basically when that's, what's happening as you point out in the data world these days. So, so what kind of work are you doing in that regard in terms of reinforcing the importance of security culture, privacy culture, you know, this kind of protective culture within an organization so that everybody fully understands, you know, the risks but, also the huge upsides. If you do enforce this responsibility and these good behaviors that that obviously the company can gain from, and then provide value to their client base. So how do you reinforce that within your clients to spread that culture, if you will, within their organizations? >> Spreading a culture is not always an easy thing, And especially a lot of organizations think about the value around data, but to your point, not always about the risks that come associated with it. Sometimes just because they don't know about it yet, right, there's new architectures that come into play, like the clouds and that comes with a whole bunch of new risks. That, that's why one of the things that we recommend always to our customers and to data officers in our customer's organizations, is that next to establishing that, that data literacy, for example, and working on data products is that they also partner strongly with other leaders in their organization. On the one hand, for example, the legal folks, where typically you find the the aspects around privacy and on the other hand, the information security folks, because if you're building up sort of map of your data, look at it like a castle, right, that you're trying to protect. If you don't have a map of your castle, with the strong points and the weak points, and you know where people can build, dig a hole under your wall or what have you, then it's very hard to defend. So, you have to be able to get a map of your data, a data map if you will, know what data is out there. Who its being used by, and why and how, and then you want to prioritize that data, which is the most important what are the most important uses and put the appropriate protections and controls in place. And it's fundamental that you do that together with your legal and information security partners because you may have as a data lead that you may have the data knowledge, the data expertise but, there's a bunch of other things that come into play when you're trying to protect, not just the data but, really your company on its data as a whole. >> No, you Were talking about 2025 a little bit ago, and I thought good for you, that's quite a crystal ball that you have it, you know looking to, you know, with the headlights that far down the road, but I know you have to be, you know that kind of progressive thinking is very important. What do you see in, in the long-term for number one, your kind of position as a chief data citizen, if you will, and then the role of the chief data officer, which you think is kind of migrating toward that citizenship, if you will. So, maybe put on those long-term vision goggles of yours again, and tell me, what do you see as far as these evolving roles and, and these new responsibilities for people who are CEOs these days? >> Well, 2025 is closer than we think right? Then obviously, my crystal ball is as fuzzy as everyone else's but, there's a few things, that trends that you can easily identify and that we've seen by doing this for so long at Collibra. And one is the, the push around data. I think last year, the years, 2020,` where sort of COVID became the executive director of digitalization. Forced everyone to think more about digital, and I expect that to continue. So, that's an important aspect. The second important aspect that I expect to continue for the next couple of years, easily in 2025 is the whole movement to the cloud. So these cloud native architectures become important, as well as the, you know, preparing your data around it, preparing your policies around it, etc.. I also expect that privacy regulations will continue to increase as well as the needs to protect your data assets. And I expected a lot of key data officers will also be very busy building out those data products. So if you, if you take that that trend then, okay data products are getting more important for key data officer's, then data quality is something that's increasingly important today to get right, otherwise, becomes a garbage in garbage out kind of situation, where your data products are being fed bad foods and ultimately their outcomes aren't very clear. So for us, for the chief data officers, I think it was about one of them in 2002, and then 2019 ish, let's say there were 10,000. So there's plenty of upsides for the chief data officer there's plenty of roles like that needed across the world. And they've also evolved in, in responsibility. And I expect that their position, you know, as it it is really a C-level position today in most organizations. Expect that, that trend will also continue to grow. But ultimately those chief data officers have to think about the business, right? Not just the defensive and offensive positions around data, like almost policies and regulations but, also the support for businesses who are today, shifting very fast and will continue to, to digital. So, those key data officers will be seen as key notes. Especially when they can build out the factory of data products that really supports the business. But at the same time, they have to figure out how to reaching all of the branch to their technical counterparts, because you cannot build a factory of data products in my mind at least, without the proper infrastructure. And that's where your technical teams come in. And then obviously the partnerships with your video and information security folks, of course. >> Well heroes, everybody wants to be the hero. And I know that's a, you painted a pretty clear path right now, as far as the chief data officer's concerned and their importance and the value to companies down the road. Stan, we thank you very much for the time today and for the insight, and wish you continued success at the conference. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. Have a nice day. Stay healthy. >> Thank you very much Stan Christiaen's joining us, talking about chief data citizenship, if you will, as part of data citizens, 21 the conference being put on by Collibra. I'm John Walls. Thanks for joining us here on the cube. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to HPE Discover 2021, theCube's virtual coverage, continuous coverage of HPE's annual customer event. My name is Dave Vellante and we're going to dive into the intersection of high-performance computing, data and AI with Dr. Eng Lim Goh who's a Senior Vice President and CTO for AI at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Dr. Goh, great to see you again. Welcome back to theCube. >> Hey, hello, Dave. Great to talk to you again. >> You might remember last year we talked a lot about swarm intelligence and how AI is evolving. Of course you hosted the Day 2 keynotes here at Discover. And you talked about thriving in the age of insights and how to craft a data-centric strategy and you addressed some of the biggest problems I think organizations face with data. And that's, you got to look, data is plentiful, but insights, they're harder to come by and you really dug into some great examples in retail, banking, and medicine and healthcare and media. But stepping back a little bit we'll zoom out on Discover '21, you know, what do you make of the events so far and some of your big takeaways? >> Hmm, well, you started with the insightful question. Data is everywhere then but we lack the insight. That's also part of the reason why that's a main reason why, Antonio on Day 1 focused and talked about that, the fact that we are in the now in the age of insight and how to thrive in this new age. What I then did on the Day 2 keynote following Antonio is to talk about the challenges that we need to overcome in order to thrive in this new age. >> So maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the things that you took away in terms of, I'm specifically interested in some of the barriers to achieving insights when you know customers are drowning in data. What do you hear from customers? What were your takeaway from some of the ones you talked about today? >> Very pertinent question, Dave. You know, the two challenges I spoke about how to, that we need to overcome in order to thrive in this new age, the first one is the current challenge. And that current challenge is, you know state of this, you know, barriers to insight, when we are awash with data. So that's a statement. How to overcome those barriers. One of the barriers to insight when we are awash in data, in the Day 2 keynote, I spoke about three main things, three main areas that receive from customers. The first one, the first barrier is with many of our customers, data is siloed. You know, like in a big corporation, you've got data siloed by sales, finance, engineering, manufacturing, and so on supply chain and so on. And there's a major effort ongoing in many corporations to build a Federation layer above all those silos so that when you build applications above they can be more intelligent. They can have access to all the different silos of data to get better intelligence and more intelligent applications built. So that was the first barrier we spoke about, you know, barriers to insight when we are awash with data. The second barrier is that we see amongst our customers is that data is raw and disperse when they are stored. And it's tough to get to value out of them. In that case I use the example of the May 6, 2010 event where the stock market dropped a trillion dollars in tens of minutes. We all know those who are financially attuned with, know about this incident. But that this is not the only incident. There are many of them out there. And for that particular May 6, event, you know it took a long time to get insight, months, yeah, before we, for months we had no insight as to what happened, why it happened. And there were many other incidences like this and the regulators were looking for that one rule that could mitigate many of these incidences. One of our customers decided to take the hard road to go with the tough data. Because data is raw and dispersed. So they went into all the different feeds of financial transaction information, took the tough, you know, took a tough road and analyze that data took a long time to assemble. And he discovered that there was quote stuffing. That people were sending a lot of trades in and then canceling them almost immediately. You have to manipulate the market. And why didn't we see it immediately? Well, the reason is the process reports that everybody sees had the rule in there that says all trades less than 100 shares don't need to report in there. And so what people did was sending a lot of less than 100 shares trades to fly under the radar to do this manipulation. So here is, here the second barrier. Data could be raw and disperse. Sometimes it's just have to take the hard road and to get insight. And this is one great example. And then the last barrier has to do with sometimes when you start a project to get insight, to get answers and insight, you realize that all the data's around you, but you don't seem to find the right ones to get what you need. You don't seem to get the right ones, yeah. Here we have three quick examples of customers. One was a great example where they were trying to build a language translator a machine language translator between two languages. But in order to do that they need to get hundreds of millions of word pairs of one language compare with the corresponding other hundreds of millions of them. They say, "Where I'm going to get all these word pairs?" Someone creative thought of a willing source and huge source, it was a United Nations. You see, so sometimes you think you don't have the right data with you, but there might be another source and a willing one that could give you that data. The second one has to do with, there was the, sometimes you may just have to generate that data. Interesting one. We had an autonomous car customer that collects all these data from their cars. Massive amounts of data, lots of sensors, collect lots of data. And, you know, but sometimes they don't have the data they need even after collection. For example, they may have collected the data with a car in fine weather and collected the car driving on this highway in rain and also in snow. But never had the opportunity to collect the car in hail because that's a rare occurrence. So instead of waiting for a time where the car can drive in hail, they build a simulation by having the car collected in snow and simulated hail. So these are some of the examples where we have customers working to overcome barriers. You have barriers that is associated with the fact, that data silo, if federated barriers associated with data that's tough to get at. They just took the hard road. And sometimes thirdly, you just have to be creative to get the right data you need. >> Wow, I tell you, I have about 100 questions based on what you just said. And as a great example, the flash crash in fact Michael Lewis wrote about this in his book, the "Flash Boys" and essentially. It was high frequency traders trying to front run the market and sending in small block trades trying to get sort of front ended. So that's, and they chalked it up to a glitch. Like you said, for months, nobody really knew what it was. So technology got us into this problem. Can I guess my question is can technology help us get get out of the problem? And that maybe is where AI fits in. >> Yes. Yes. In fact, a lot of analytics work went in to go back to the raw data that is highly dispersed from different sources, assemble them to see if you can find a material trend. You can see lots of trends. Like, no, we, if humans at things we tend to see patterns in clouds. So sometimes you need to apply statistical analysis, math to be sure that what the model is seeing is real. And that required work. That's one area. The second area is, you know, when this, there are times when you just need to go through that tough approach to find the answer. Now, the issue comes to mind now is that humans put in the rules to decide what goes into a report that everybody sees. And in this case before the change in the rules. By the way, after the discovery, the authorities changed the rules and all shares all trades of different, any sizes it has to be reported. Not, yeah. But the rule was applied to to say earlier that shares under 100, trades under 100 shares need not be reported. So sometimes you just have to understand that reports were decided by humans and for understandable reasons. I mean, they probably didn't, wanted for various reasons not to put everything in there so that people could still read it in a reasonable amount of time. But we need to understand that rules were being put in by humans for the reports we read. And as such there are times we just need to go back to the raw data. >> I want to ask you-- Or be it that it's going to be tough there. >> Yeah, so I want to ask you a question about AI as obviously it's in your title and it's something you know a lot about and I'm going to make a statement. You tell me if it's on point or off point. Seems that most of the AI going on in the enterprise is modeling data science applied to troves of data. But there's also a lot of AI going on in consumer, whether it's fingerprint technology or facial recognition or natural language processing. Will, to two-part question, will the consumer market, let's say as it has so often in the enterprise sort of inform us is sort of first part. And then will there be a shift from sort of modeling, if you will, to more, you mentioned autonomous vehicles more AI inferencing in real-time, especially with the Edge. I think you can help us understand that better. >> Yeah, this is a great question. There are three stages to just simplify, I mean, you know, it's probably more sophisticated than that, but let's just simplify there're three stages to building an AI system that ultimately can predict, make a prediction. Or to assist you in decision-making, have an outcome. So you start with the data, massive amounts of data that you have to decide what to feed the machine with. So you feed the machine with this massive chunk of data. And the machine starts to evolve a model based on all the data is seeing it starts to evolve. To a point that using a test set of data that you have separately kept a site that you know the answer for. Then you test the model, you know after you're trained it with all that data to see whether his prediction accuracy is high enough. And once you are satisfied with it, you then deploy the model to make the decision and that's the inference. So a lot of times depending on what we are focusing on. We in data science are we working hard on assembling the right data to feed the machine with? That's the data preparation organization work. And then after which you build your models you have to pick the right models for the decisions and prediction you wanted to make. You pick the right models and then you start feeding the data with it. Sometimes you pick one model and a prediction isn't that a robust, it is good, but then it is not consistent. Now what you do is you try another model. So sometimes you just keep trying different models until you get the right kind, yeah, that gives you a good robust decision-making and prediction. Now, after which, if it's tested well, Q8 you will then take that model and deploy it at the Edge, yeah. And then at the Edge is essentially just looking at new data applying it to the model that you have trained and then that model will give you a prediction or a decision. So it is these three stages, yeah. But more and more, your question reminds me that more and more people are thinking as the Edge become more and more powerful, can you also do learning at the Edge? That's the reason why we spoke about swarm learning the last time, learning at the Edge as a swarm. Because maybe individually they may not have enough power to do so, but as a swarm, they may. >> Is that learning from the Edge or learning at the Edge. In other words, is it-- >> Yes. >> Yeah, you don't understand my question, yeah. >> That's a great question. That's a great question. So answer is learning at the Edge, and also from the Edge, but the main goal, the goal is to learn at the Edge so that you don't have to move the data that Edge sees first back to the Cloud or the call to do the learning. Because that would be the reason, one of the main reasons why you want to learn at the Edge. So that you don't need to have to send all that data back and assemble it back from all the different Edge devices assemble it back to the Cloud side to do the learning. With swarm learning, you can learn it and keep the data at the Edge and learn at that point, yeah. >> And then maybe only selectively send the autonomous vehicle example you gave is great 'cause maybe they're, you know, there may be only persisting. They're not persisting data that is an inclement weather, or when a deer runs across the front and then maybe they do that and then they send that smaller data set back and maybe that's where it's modeling done but the rest can be done at the Edge. It's a new world that's coming to, let me ask you a question. Is there a limit to what data should be collected and how it should be collected? >> That's a great question again, yeah, well, today full of these insightful questions that actually touches on the second challenge. How do we, to in order to thrive in this new age of insight. The second challenge is our future challenge. What do we do for our future? And in there is the statement we make is we have to focus on collecting data strategically for the future of our enterprise. And within that, I talk about what to collect, and when to organize it when you collect, and then where will your data be going forward that you are collecting from? So what, when, and where. For the what data, for what data to collect that was the question you asked. It's a question that different industries have to ask themselves because it will vary. Let me give you the, you use the autonomous car example. Let me use that and you have this customer collecting massive amounts of data. You know, we talking about 10 petabytes a day from a fleet of their cars and these are not production autonomous cars. These are training autonomous cars, collecting data so they can train and eventually deploy a commercial cars. Also these data collection cars, they collect 10 as a fleet of them collect 10 petabytes a day. And then when it came to us, building a storage system to store all of that data they realize they don't want to afford to store all of it. Now here comes the dilemma. What should I, after I spent so much effort building all this cars and sensors and collecting data, I've now decide what to delete. That's a dilemma. Now in working with them on this process of trimming down what they collected. I'm constantly reminded of the 60s and 70s. To remind myself 60s and 70s, we call a large part of our DNA, junk DNA. Today we realized that a large part of that, what we call junk has function has valuable function. They are not genes but they regulate the function of genes. So what's junk in yesterday could be valuable today, or what's junk today could be valuable tomorrow. So there's this tension going on between you deciding not wanting to afford to store everything that you can get your hands on. But on the other hand, you know you worry, you ignore the wrong ones. You can see this tension in our customers. And then it depends on industry here. In healthcare they say, I have no choice. I want it all, why? One very insightful point brought up by one healthcare provider that really touched me was you know, we are not, we don't only care. Of course we care a lot. We care a lot about the people we are caring for. But we also care for the people we are not caring for. How do we find them? And therefore, they did not just need to collect data that they have with, from their patients they also need to reach out to outside data so that they can figure out who they are not caring for. So they want it all. So I asked them, "So what do you do with funding if you want it all?" They say they have no choice but they'll figure out a way to fund it and perhaps monetization of what they have now is the way to come around and fund that. Of course, they also come back to us, rightfully that you know, we have to then work out a way to to help them build a system. So that healthcare. And if you go to other industries like banking, they say they can afford to keep them all. But they are regulated same like healthcare. They are regulated as to privacy and such like. So many examples, different industries having different needs but different approaches to how, what they collect. But there is this constant tension between you perhaps deciding not wanting to fund all of that, all that you can store. But on the other hand you know, if you kind of don't want to afford it and decide not to store some, maybe those some become highly valuable in the future. You worry. >> Well, we can make some assumptions about the future, can't we? I mean we know there's going to be a lot more data than we've ever seen before, we know that. We know, well not withstanding supply constraints and things like NAND. We know the price of storage is going to continue to decline. We also know and not a lot of people are really talking about this but the processing power, everybody says, Moore's Law is dead. Okay, it's waning but the processing power when you combine the CPUs and NPUs, and GPUs and accelerators and so forth, actually is increasing. And so when you think about these use cases at the Edge you're going to have much more processing power. You're going to have cheaper storage and it's going to be less expensive processing. And so as an AI practitioner, what can you do with that? >> Yeah, it's a highly, again another insightful question that we touched on, on our keynote and that goes up to the why, I'll do the where. Where will your data be? We have one estimate that says that by next year, there will be 55 billion connected devices out there. 55 billion. What's the population of the world? Well, off the order of 10 billion, but this thing is 55 billion. And many of them, most of them can collect data. So what do you do? So the amount of data that's going to come in is going to way exceed our drop in storage costs our increasing compute power. So what's the answer? The answer must be knowing that we don't and even a drop in price and increase in bandwidth, it will overwhelm the 5G, it'll will overwhelm 5G, given the amount of 55 billion of them collecting. So the answer must be that there needs to be a balance between you needing to bring all that data from the 55 billion devices of the data back out to a central, as a bunch of central cost because you may not be able to afford to do that. Firstly bandwidth, even with 5G and as the, when you still be too expensive given the number of devices out there. You know given storage costs dropping it'll still be too expensive to try and install them all. So the answer must be to start at least to mitigate the problem to some leave most a lot of the data out there. And only send back the pertinent ones, as you said before. But then if you did that then, how are we going to do machine learning at the core and the Cloud side, if you don't have all the data you want rich data to train with. Sometimes you want to a mix of the positive type data, and the negative type data. So you can train the machine in a more balanced way. So the answer must be you eventually, as we move forward with these huge number of devices are at the Edge to do machine learning at the Edge. Today we don't even have power. The Edge typically is characterized by a lower energy capability and therefore, lower compute power. But soon, you know, even with low energy, they can do more with compute power, improving in energy efficiency. So learning at the Edge today we do inference at the Edge. So we data, model, deploy and you do inference at age. That's what we do today. But more and more, I believe given a massive amount of data at the Edge you have to have to start doing machine learning at the Edge. And if when you don't have enough power then you aggregate multiple devices' compute power into a swarm and learn as a swarm. >> Oh, interesting, so now of course, if I were sitting in a flyer flying the wall on HPE Board meeting I said, "Okay, HPE is a leading provider of compute." How do you take advantage that? I mean, we're going, I know it's future but you must be thinking about that and participating in those markets. I know today you are, you have, you know, Edge line and other products, but there's, it seems to me that it's not the general purpose that we've known in the past. It's a new type of specialized computing. How are you thinking about participating in that opportunity for your customers? >> The wall will have to have a balance. Where today the default, well, the more common mode is to collect the data from the Edge and train at some centralized location or number of centralized location. Going forward, given the proliferation of the Edge devices, we'll need a balance, we need both. We need capability at the Cloud side. And it has to be hybrid. And then we need capability on the Edge side. Yeah that we need to build systems that on one hand is Edge-adapted. Meaning they environmentally-adapted because the Edge differently are on it. A lot of times on the outside, they need to be packaging-adapted and also power-adapted. Because typically many of these devices are battery-powered. So you have to build systems that adapts to it. But at the same time, they must not be custom. That's my belief. They must be using standard processes and standard operating system so that they can run a rich set of applications. So yes, that's also the insightful for that. Antonio announced in 2018 for the next four years from 2018, $4 billion invested to strengthen our Edge portfolio our Edge product lines, Edge solutions. >> Dr. Goh, I could go on for hours with you. You're just such a great guest. Let's close. What are you most excited about in the future of certainly HPE, but the industry in general? >> Yeah, I think the excitement is the customers. The diversity of customers and the diversity in the way they have approached their different problems with data strategy. So the excitement is around data strategy. Just like, you know, the statement made for us was so, was profound. And Antonio said we are in the age of insight powered by data. That's the first line. The line that comes after that is as such we are becoming more and more data-centric with data the currency. Now the next step is even more profound. That is, you know, we are going as far as saying that data should not be treated as cost anymore, no. But instead, as an investment in a new asset class called data with value on our balance sheet. This is a step change in thinking that is going to change the way we look at data, the way we value it. So that's a statement. So this is the exciting thing, because for me a CTO of AI, a machine is only as intelligent as the data you feed it with. Data is a source of the machine learning to be intelligent. So that's why when the people start to value data and say that it is an investment when we collect it it is very positive for AI because an AI system gets intelligent, get more intelligence because it has huge amounts of data and a diversity of data. So it'd be great if the community values data. >> Well, are you certainly see it in the valuations of many companies these days? And I think increasingly you see it on the income statement, you know data products and people monetizing data services, and yeah, maybe eventually you'll see it in the balance sheet, I know. Doug Laney when he was at Gartner Group wrote a book about this and a lot of people are thinking about it. That's a big change, isn't it? Dr. Goh. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your question is the process and methods in valuation. But I believe we'll get there. We need to get started and then we'll get there, I believe, yeah. >> Dr. Goh it's always my pleasure. >> And then the AI will benefit greatly from it. >> Oh yeah, no doubt. People will better understand how to align some of these technology investments. Dr. Goh, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming back in theCube. It's been a real pleasure. >> Yes, a system is only as smart as the data you feed it with. (both chuckling) >> Well, excellent, we'll leave it there. Thank you for spending some time with us so keep it right there for more great interviews from HPE Discover '21. This is Dave Vellante for theCube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to HPE Discover 2021, theCUBE's virtual coverage, continuous coverage of HPE's Annual Customer Event. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're going to dive into the intersection of high-performance computing, data and AI with Doctor Eng Lim Goh, who's a Senior Vice President and CTO for AI at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Doctor Goh, great to see you again. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Hello, Dave, great to talk to you again. >> You might remember last year we talked a lot about Swarm intelligence and how AI is evolving. Of course, you hosted the Day 2 Keynotes here at Discover. And you talked about thriving in the age of insights, and how to craft a data-centric strategy. And you addressed some of the biggest problems, I think organizations face with data. That's, you've got a, data is plentiful, but insights, they're harder to come by. >> Yeah. >> And you really dug into some great examples in retail, banking, in medicine, healthcare and media. But stepping back a little bit we zoomed out on Discover '21. What do you make of the events so far and some of your big takeaways? >> Hmm, well, we started with the insightful question, right, yeah? Data is everywhere then, but we lack the insight. That's also part of the reason why, that's a main reason why Antonio on day one focused and talked about the fact that we are in the now in the age of insight, right? And how to try thrive in that age, in this new age? What I then did on a Day 2 Keynote following Antonio is to talk about the challenges that we need to overcome in order to thrive in this new age. >> So, maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the things that you took away in terms of, I'm specifically interested in some of the barriers to achieving insights. You know customers are drowning in data. What do you hear from customers? What were your takeaway from some of the ones you talked about today? >> Oh, very pertinent question, Dave. You know the two challenges I spoke about, that we need to overcome in order to thrive in this new age. The first one is the current challenge. And that current challenge is, you know, stated is now barriers to insight, when we are awash with data. So that's a statement on how do you overcome those barriers? What are the barriers to insight when we are awash in data? In the Day 2 Keynote, I spoke about three main things. Three main areas that we receive from customers. The first one, the first barrier is in many, with many of our customers, data is siloed, all right. You know, like in a big corporation, you've got data siloed by sales, finance, engineering, manufacturing and so on supply chain and so on. And there's a major effort ongoing in many corporations to build a federation layer above all those silos so that when you build applications above, they can be more intelligent. They can have access to all the different silos of data to get better intelligence and more intelligent applications built. So that was the first barrier we spoke about, you know? Barriers to insight when we are awash with data. The second barrier is that we see amongst our customers is that data is raw and disperse when they are stored. And you know, it's tough to get at, to tough to get a value out of them, right? And in that case, I use the example of, you know, the May 6, 2010 event where the stock market dropped a trillion dollars in terms of minutes. We all know those who are financially attuned with know about this incident but that this is not the only incident. There are many of them out there. And for that particular May 6 event, you know, it took a long time to get insight. Months, yeah, before we, for months we had no insight as to what happened. Why it happened? Right, and there were many other incidences like this and the regulators were looking for that one rule that could mitigate many of these incidences. One of our customers decided to take the hard road they go with the tough data, right? Because data is raw and dispersed. So they went into all the different feeds of financial transaction information, took the tough, you know, took a tough road. And analyze that data took a long time to assemble. And they discovered that there was caught stuffing, right? That people were sending a lot of trades in and then canceling them almost immediately. You have to manipulate the market. And why didn't we see it immediately? Well, the reason is the process reports that everybody sees, the rule in there that says, all trades less than a hundred shares don't need to report in there. And so what people did was sending a lot of less than a hundred shares trades to fly under the radar to do this manipulation. So here is the second barrier, right? Data could be raw and dispersed. Sometimes it's just have to take the hard road and to get insight. And this is one great example. And then the last barrier has to do with sometimes when you start a project to get insight, to get answers and insight, you realize that all the data's around you, but you don't seem to find the right ones to get what you need. You don't seem to get the right ones, yeah? Here we have three quick examples of customers. One was a great example, right? Where they were trying to build a language translator or machine language translator between two languages, right? By not do that, they need to get hundreds of millions of word pairs. You know of one language compare with the corresponding other. Hundreds of millions of them. They say, well, I'm going to get all these word pairs. Someone creative thought of a willing source and a huge, it was a United Nations. You see? So sometimes you think you don't have the right data with you, but there might be another source and a willing one that could give you that data, right? The second one has to do with, there was the sometimes you may just have to generate that data. Interesting one, we had an autonomous car customer that collects all these data from their their cars, right? Massive amounts of data, lots of sensors, collect lots of data. And, you know, but sometimes they don't have the data they need even after collection. For example, they may have collected the data with a car in fine weather and collected the car driving on this highway in rain and also in snow. But never had the opportunity to collect the car in hill because that's a rare occurrence. So instead of waiting for a time where the car can drive in hill, they build a simulation by having the car collected in snow and simulated him. So these are some of the examples where we have customers working to overcome barriers, right? You have barriers that is associated. In fact, that data silo, they federated it. Virus associated with data, that's tough to get at. They just took the hard road, right? And sometimes thirdly, you just have to be creative to get the right data you need. >> Wow! I tell you, I have about a hundred questions based on what you just said, you know? (Dave chuckles) And as a great example, the Flash Crash. In fact, Michael Lewis, wrote about this in his book, the Flash Boys. And essentially, right, it was high frequency traders trying to front run the market and sending into small block trades (Dave chuckles) trying to get sort of front ended. So that's, and they chalked it up to a glitch. Like you said, for months, nobody really knew what it was. So technology got us into this problem. (Dave chuckles) I guess my question is can technology help us get out of the problem? And that maybe is where AI fits in? >> Yes, yes. In fact, a lot of analytics work went in to go back to the raw data that is highly dispersed from different sources, right? Assembled them to see if you can find a material trend, right? You can see lots of trends, right? Like, no, we, if humans look at things that we tend to see patterns in Clouds, right? So sometimes you need to apply statistical analysis math to be sure that what the model is seeing is real, right? And that required, well, that's one area. The second area is you know, when this, there are times when you just need to go through that tough approach to find the answer. Now, the issue comes to mind now is that humans put in the rules to decide what goes into a report that everybody sees. Now, in this case, before the change in the rules, right? But by the way, after the discovery, the authorities changed the rules and all shares, all trades of different any sizes it has to be reported. >> Right. >> Right, yeah? But the rule was applied, you know, I say earlier that shares under a hundred, trades under a hundred shares need not be reported. So, sometimes you just have to understand that reports were decided by humans and for understandable reasons. I mean, they probably didn't wanted a various reasons not to put everything in there. So that people could still read it in a reasonable amount of time. But we need to understand that rules were being put in by humans for the reports we read. And as such, there are times we just need to go back to the raw data. >> I want to ask you... >> Oh, it could be, that it's going to be tough, yeah. >> Yeah, I want to ask you a question about AI as obviously it's in your title and it's something you know a lot about but. And I'm going to make a statement, you tell me if it's on point or off point. So seems that most of the AI going on in the enterprise is modeling data science applied to, you know, troves of data. But there's also a lot of AI going on in consumer. Whether it's, you know, fingerprint technology or facial recognition or natural language processing. Well, two part question will the consumer market, as it has so often in the enterprise sort of inform us is sort of first part. And then, there'll be a shift from sort of modeling if you will to more, you mentioned the autonomous vehicles, more AI inferencing in real time, especially with the Edge. Could you help us understand that better? >> Yeah, this is a great question, right? There are three stages to just simplify. I mean, you know, it's probably more sophisticated than that. But let's just simplify that three stages, right? To building an AI system that ultimately can predict, make a prediction, right? Or to assist you in decision-making. I have an outcome. So you start with the data, massive amounts of data that you have to decide what to feed the machine with. So you feed the machine with this massive chunk of data, and the machine starts to evolve a model based on all the data it's seeing. It starts to evolve, right? To a point that using a test set of data that you have separately kept aside that you know the answer for. Then you test the model, you know? After you've trained it with all that data to see whether its prediction accuracy is high enough. And once you are satisfied with it, you then deploy the model to make the decision. And that's the inference, right? So a lot of times, depending on what we are focusing on, we in data science are, are we working hard on assembling the right data to feed the machine with? That's the data preparation organization work. And then after which you build your models you have to pick the right models for the decisions and prediction you need to make. You pick the right models. And then you start feeding the data with it. Sometimes you pick one model and a prediction isn't that robust. It is good, but then it is not consistent, right? Now what you do is you try another model. So sometimes it gets keep trying different models until you get the right kind, yeah? That gives you a good robust decision-making and prediction. Now, after which, if it's tested well, QA, you will then take that model and deploy it at the Edge. Yeah, and then at the Edge is essentially just looking at new data, applying it to the model that you have trained. And then that model will give you a prediction or a decision, right? So it is these three stages, yeah. But more and more, your question reminds me that more and more people are thinking as the Edge become more and more powerful. Can you also do learning at the Edge? >> Right. >> That's the reason why we spoke about Swarm Learning the last time. Learning at the Edge as a Swarm, right? Because maybe individually, they may not have enough power to do so. But as a Swarm, they may. >> Is that learning from the Edge or learning at the Edge? In other words, is that... >> Yes. >> Yeah. You do understand my question. >> Yes. >> Yeah. (Dave chuckles) >> That's a great question. That's a great question, right? So the quick answer is learning at the Edge, right? And also from the Edge, but the main goal, right? The goal is to learn at the Edge so that you don't have to move the data that Edge sees first back to the Cloud or the Call to do the learning. Because that would be the reason, one of the main reasons why you want to learn at the Edge. Right? So that you don't need to have to send all that data back and assemble it back from all the different Edge devices. Assemble it back to the Cloud Site to do the learning, right? Some on you can learn it and keep the data at the Edge and learn at that point, yeah. >> And then maybe only selectively send. >> Yeah. >> The autonomous vehicle, example you gave is great. 'Cause maybe they're, you know, there may be only persisting. They're not persisting data that is an inclement weather, or when a deer runs across the front. And then maybe they do that and then they send that smaller data setback and maybe that's where it's modeling done but the rest can be done at the Edge. It's a new world that's coming through. Let me ask you a question. Is there a limit to what data should be collected and how it should be collected? >> That's a great question again, yeah. Well, today full of these insightful questions. (Dr. Eng chuckles) That actually touches on the the second challenge, right? How do we, in order to thrive in this new age of insight? The second challenge is our future challenge, right? What do we do for our future? And in there is the statement we make is we have to focus on collecting data strategically for the future of our enterprise. And within that, I talked about what to collect, right? When to organize it when you collect? And then where will your data be going forward that you are collecting from? So what, when, and where? For what data to collect? That was the question you asked, it's a question that different industries have to ask themselves because it will vary, right? Let me give you the, you use the autonomous car example. Let me use that. And we do have this customer collecting massive amounts of data. You know, we're talking about 10 petabytes a day from a fleet of their cars. And these are not production autonomous cars, right? These are training autonomous cars, collecting data so they can train and eventually deploy commercial cars, right? Also this data collection cars, they collect 10, as a fleet of them collect 10 petabytes a day. And then when they came to us, building a storage system you know, to store all of that data, they realized they don't want to afford to store all of it. Now here comes the dilemma, right? What should I, after I spent so much effort building all this cars and sensors and collecting data, I've now decide what to delete. That's a dilemma, right? Now in working with them on this process of trimming down what they collected, you know, I'm constantly reminded of the 60s and 70s, right? To remind myself 60s and 70s, we called a large part of our DNA, junk DNA. >> Yeah. (Dave chuckles) >> Ah! Today, we realized that a large part of that what we call junk has function as valuable function. They are not genes but they regulate the function of genes. You know? So what's junk in yesterday could be valuable today. Or what's junk today could be valuable tomorrow, right? So, there's this tension going on, right? Between you deciding not wanting to afford to store everything that you can get your hands on. But on the other hand, you worry, you ignore the wrong ones, right? You can see this tension in our customers, right? And then it depends on industry here, right? In healthcare they say, I have no choice. I want it all, right? Oh, one very insightful point brought up by one healthcare provider that really touched me was you know, we don't only care. Of course we care a lot. We care a lot about the people we are caring for, right? But who also care for the people we are not caring for? How do we find them? >> Uh-huh. >> Right, and that definitely, they did not just need to collect data that they have with from their patients. They also need to reach out, right? To outside data so that they can figure out who they are not caring for, right? So they want it all. So I asked them, so what do you do with funding if you want it all? They say they have no choice but to figure out a way to fund it and perhaps monetization of what they have now is the way to come around and fund that. Of course, they also come back to us rightfully, that you know we have to then work out a way to help them build a system, you know? So that's healthcare, right? And if you go to other industries like banking, they say they can afford to keep them all. >> Yeah. >> But they are regulated, seemed like healthcare, they are regulated as to privacy and such like. So many examples different industries having different needs but different approaches to what they collect. But there is this constant tension between you perhaps deciding not wanting to fund all of that, all that you can install, right? But on the other hand, you know if you kind of don't want to afford it and decide not to start some. Maybe those some become highly valuable in the future, right? (Dr. Eng chuckles) You worry. >> Well, we can make some assumptions about the future. Can't we? I mean, we know there's going to be a lot more data than we've ever seen before. We know that. We know, well, not withstanding supply constraints and things like NAND. We know the prices of storage is going to continue to decline. We also know and not a lot of people are really talking about this, but the processing power, but the says, Moore's law is dead. Okay, it's waning, but the processing power when you combine the CPUs and NPUs, and GPUs and accelerators and so forth actually is increasing. And so when you think about these use cases at the Edge you're going to have much more processing power. You're going to have cheaper storage and it's going to be less expensive processing. And so as an AI practitioner, what can you do with that? >> Yeah, it's a highly, again, another insightful question that we touched on our Keynote. And that goes up to the why, uh, to the where? Where will your data be? Right? We have one estimate that says that by next year there will be 55 billion connected devices out there, right? 55 billion, right? What's the population of the world? Well, of the other 10 billion? But this thing is 55 billion. (Dave chuckles) Right? And many of them, most of them can collect data. So what do you do? Right? So the amount of data that's going to come in, it's going to way exceed, right? Drop in storage costs are increasing compute power. >> Right. >> Right. So what's the answer, right? So the answer must be knowing that we don't, and even a drop in price and increase in bandwidth, it will overwhelm the, 5G, it will overwhelm 5G, right? Given the amount of 55 billion of them collecting. So the answer must be that there needs to be a balance between you needing to bring all of that data from the 55 billion devices of the data back to a central, as a bunch of central cost. Because you may not be able to afford to do that. Firstly bandwidth, even with 5G and as the, when you'll still be too expensive given the number of devices out there. You know given storage costs dropping is still be too expensive to try and install them all. So the answer must be to start, at least to mitigate from to, some leave most a lot of the data out there, right? And only send back the pertinent ones, as you said before. But then if you did that then how are we going to do machine learning at the Core and the Cloud Site, if you don't have all the data? You want rich data to train with, right? Sometimes you want to mix up the positive type data and the negative type data. So you can train the machine in a more balanced way. So the answer must be eventually, right? As we move forward with these huge number of devices all at the Edge to do machine learning at the Edge. Today we don't even have power, right? The Edge typically is characterized by a lower energy capability and therefore lower compute power. But soon, you know? Even with low energy, they can do more with compute power improving in energy efficiency, right? So learning at the Edge, today we do inference at the Edge. So we data, model, deploy and you do inference there is. That's what we do today. But more and more, I believe given a massive amount of data at the Edge, you have to start doing machine learning at the Edge. And when you don't have enough power then you aggregate multiple devices, compute power into a Swarm and learn as a Swarm, yeah. >> Oh, interesting. So now of course, if I were sitting and fly on the wall and the HPE board meeting I said, okay, HPE is a leading provider of compute. How do you take advantage of that? I mean, we're going, I know it's future but you must be thinking about that and participating in those markets. I know today you are, you have, you know, Edge line and other products. But there's, it seems to me that it's not the general purpose that we've known in the past. It's a new type of specialized computing. How are you thinking about participating in that opportunity for the customers? >> Hmm, the wall will have to have a balance, right? Where today the default, well, the more common mode is to collect the data from the Edge and train at some centralized location or number of centralized location. Going forward, given the proliferation of the Edge devices, we'll need a balance, we need both. We need capability at the Cloud Site, right? And it has to be hybrid. And then we need capability on the Edge side that we need to build systems that on one hand is an Edge adapter, right? Meaning they environmentally adapted because the Edge differently are on it, a lot of times on the outside. They need to be packaging adapted and also power adapted, right? Because typically many of these devices are battery powered. Right? So you have to build systems that adapts to it. But at the same time, they must not be custom. That's my belief. It must be using standard processes and standard operating system so that they can run a rich set of applications. So yes, that's also the insight for that Antonio announced in 2018. For the next four years from 2018, right? $4 billion invested to strengthen our Edge portfolio. >> Uh-huh. >> Edge product lines. >> Right. >> Uh-huh, Edge solutions. >> I could, Doctor Goh, I could go on for hours with you. You're just such a great guest. Let's close. What are you most excited about in the future of, certainly HPE, but the industry in general? >> Yeah, I think the excitement is the customers, right? The diversity of customers and the diversity in the way they have approached different problems of data strategy. So the excitement is around data strategy, right? Just like, you know, the statement made for us was so was profound, right? And Antonio said, we are in the age of insight powered by data. That's the first line, right? The line that comes after that is as such we are becoming more and more data centric with data that currency. Now the next step is even more profound. That is, you know, we are going as far as saying that, you know, data should not be treated as cost anymore. No, right? But instead as an investment in a new asset class called data with value on our balance sheet. This is a step change, right? Right, in thinking that is going to change the way we look at data, the way we value it. So that's a statement. (Dr. Eng chuckles) This is the exciting thing, because for me a CTO of AI, right? A machine is only as intelligent as the data you feed it with. Data is a source of the machine learning to be intelligent. Right? (Dr. Eng chuckles) So, that's why when the people start to value data, right? And say that it is an investment when we collect it it is very positive for AI. Because an AI system gets intelligent, get more intelligence because it has huge amounts of data and a diversity of data. >> Yeah. >> So it'd be great, if the community values data. >> Well, you certainly see it in the valuations of many companies these days. And I think increasingly you see it on the income statement. You know data products and people monetizing data services. And yeah, maybe eventually you'll see it in the balance sheet. I know Doug Laney, when he was at Gartner Group, wrote a book about this and a lot of people are thinking about it. That's a big change, isn't it? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Dr. Goh... (Dave chuckles) >> The question is the process and methods in valuation. Right? >> Yeah, right. >> But I believe we will get there. We need to get started. And then we'll get there. I believe, yeah. >> Doctor Goh, it's always my pleasure. >> And then the AI will benefit greatly from it. >> Oh, yeah, no doubt. People will better understand how to align, you know some of these technology investments. Dr. Goh, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming back in theCUBE. It's been a real pleasure. >> Yes, a system is only as smart as the data you feed it with. (Dave chuckles) (Dr. Eng laughs) >> Excellent. We'll leave it there. Thank you for spending some time with us and keep it right there for more great interviews from HPE Discover 21. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in Enterprise Tech Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>It's my pleasure to be one of the hosts of the cube on cloud and the startup showcase brought to you by AWS. This is Dave Vellante and for years, the cube has been following the trail of data. And with the relentless March of data growth, this idea of a single version of the truth has become more and more elusive. Moreover data has become the lifeblood of a digital business. And if there's one thing that we've learned throughout the pandemic, if you're not digital, you're in trouble. So we've seen firsthand the critical importance of reliable and trusted data. And with me to talk about his company and the trends in the market is many sued as the CTO and co-founder of Reltio Maneesh. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Okay. Let's start with, let's go back to you and your co-founders when you started Reltio it was back in the early days of the big data movement cloud was kind of just starting to take off, but what problems did you see then and what are enterprises struggling with today, especially with, with data as a source of digital innovation. >>They, if you look at the changes that have taken place in the landscape over the course of the last 10 years, when we started Reltio in 2011, there were a few secular trends that were coming to life. One was a cloud compute type of capabilities being provided by vendors like AWS. It was starting to pick up steam where making, uh, compute capabilities available at scale to solve large data problems was becoming real impossible. The second thing that we saw was, uh, this big trend of, uh, you know, you can not have a wall to wall, one single application that solves your entire business problem. Those visions have come and gone. And, uh, we are seeing more of the best of breed application type of a landscape where even if you look within a specific function, let's say sales or marketing, you have more than a dozen applications that any company is using today. >>And that trend was starting to emerge where we knew very well, that the number of systems that we would have to work with would continue to increase. And, uh, that created a problem of where would you get the single source of truth or the single best version of a customer, a supplier, a product that you're trying to sell those types of critical pieces of information that are core to any business that's out there today. And, um, you know, that created the opportunity for us at Reltio to think about the problem at scale for every company out there, every business who needed this kind of a capability and for us to provide this capability in the cloud as a software, as a service, uh, uh, offering. So that's where, uh, you know, the foundation of Reltio started. And the core problem that we wanted to solve was to bridge the gap that was created by all these data silos and create a unified view of the core critical information that these companies run on. >>Yeah. I mean, the cloud is this giant, you know, hyper distributed system data by its very nature is distributed. It's interesting what you were sort of implying about, you know, the days of the monolithic app are gone by my business partner years ago, John furrier and the cube said data is going to become the new development kit. And we've certainly seen that with the, the pandemic, but tell us more about Reltio and how you help customers deal with that notion of data, silo, data silos, data fragmentation, how do you solve that problem? >>So, data fragmentation is what exists today. And, um, you know, with the Reltio, uh, software as a service offering that we provide, we allow customers to stitch together and unify the data coming from these different fragmented, siloed, uh, applications or data sources that they have within their enterprise at the same time. Um, there's a lot of dependence on the third party data. You know, when you think about, uh, different problems that you're trying to solve, you have, uh, for B2B type of information that in Bradstreet type of data providers in life sciences, you have IQ via type of data providers. Um, you know, as you look at other verticals, there is a specialized third-party data provider for any, and every kind of information that most of the enterprise businesses want to combine with their in-house data or first party data to get the best view of who they're dealing with, who are they working with, you know, who are the customers that they're serving and use that information also as a starting point for the digital transformation that they want to get to. >>Um, and that's where Reltio fits in as the only platform that can help stitch together, this kind of, uh, information and create a 360 degree view that spans all the data silos and provides that for real-time use for BI and analytics to benefit from, for data science to benefit from. And then this emerging notion of, uh, data in itself is a, um, you know, key starting point that is used by us, uh, in order to make any decisions, just like, uh, we go, you know, if I, they wanted to look at information about you, I would go to places like LinkedIn, look up the information. And then our, my next set of decisions with that information, if somebody wanted to look up information on Reltio, they would go to, let's say Crunchbase as an example, and look up, uh, who are the investors? How much money have we raised all those details that are available? It's not a CRM system by itself, but it is an information application that can aid and assist in the decision-making process as a starting point. And that user experience on top of the data becomes an important vehicle for us to provide, uh, as a part of the Reltio platform capabilities. >>Awesome. Thank you. And I want to get into the, to the tech, but before we do, maybe we just cut to the chase and maybe you can talk about some of the examples of, of Reltio and action. Some of the customers that you can talk about, maybe the industries that are, that are really adopting this. W what can you tell us there, Maneesh, >>Um, we work across a few different verticals, some of the key verticals that we work in our life sciences, um, and travel and hospitality and financial services, insurance, um, S uh, retail, as an example, those are some of the key verticals for us, but, uh, to give you some examples of, uh, the type of problems that customers are solving with Reltio as the data unification platform, um, let's take CarMax as an example, CarMax is a customer who's in the business of, uh, buying used cars, selling used cars, servicing those used cars. And then, um, you know, you as a customer, don't just transact with them. Once you, you know, you've had a car for three years, you go back and look at what can you trade in that car for, but in order for CarMax to provide a service to you that, uh, goes across all the different touch points, whether you are visiting them at their store location, uh, trying to test drive a car or viewing, uh, information about the various vehicles on their website, or just, uh, you know, punching in the registration number of your car, just to see what is the appraisal from them in terms of how much will they pay for your car? >>This requires a lot of data behind the scenes for them to provide a seamless journey across all touch points and the type of information that they use, uh Reltio for aggregating, unifying, and then making available across all these touch points is all of the information about the customers, all of the information about, uh, the, uh, household, uh, you know, the understanding that they're trying to achieve because, uh, life events can, uh, be buying signals, uh, for, uh, consumers like uni, as well as, uh, who was the, um, associate who helped you either in the selling of a car buying of a car, because business is all about building relationships for the longer term lifetime value that they want to capture. And in that process, um, making sure that they're providing continuity of relationship, they need to keep track of that data. And then the vehicle itself, the vehicle that you buy yourself, uh, there is a lot of information in order to price it, right, that needs to be gathered, uh, from multiple sources. So the continuum of data all the way from consumer to the vehicle is aggregated from multiple sources, unified inside Reltio, and then made available, uh, through API APIs or through other methods, and means to the various applications can be either built on top of that information, or can consume that information in order to better aid and assist the processes, business processes that those applications have to run end to end. Well, it sounds like >>That's come along. Sorry. >>I was just going to say it that's one example and, uh, you know, across other verticals that are other similar examples of how companies are leveraging, Reltio >>Just say, can come a long way from simple linear clickstream analysis of a website. I mean, you're talking about really rich information and, and, you know, happy to dig into some other examples, but, but I wonder how does it work? I mean, what's the magic behind it? What's the, the tech look like, I mean, obviously you leveraging AWS, maybe you could talk about how so, and maybe some of the services there and some of your unique IP. >>Yeah. Um, you know, so the unique opportunity for us when we started in 2011 was really to leverage the power of the cloud. We started building out this capability on top of AWS back in 2011. And, uh, you know, if you think about, uh, the problem itself, uh, the problem has been around as long as you have had more than one system to run your business, but the magnitude of the problem has expanded several fold. Um, you know, for example, I have been in this area was, uh, responsible for creating some of the previous generation capabilities and, uh, most of the friction in those previous generation MDM or master data management type of solutions, um, as the, you know, the technical term that is used to refer to this area, uh, was that those systems could not keep pace with the increasing number of sources or the depth and breadth of the information that, uh, customers want to capture, whether it is, uh, you know, about a patient or a product, or let's say a supplier that you're working well. >>Uh, there is always additional information that you can capture and, uh, you know, use to better inform the decisions for the next engagement and, uh, that kind of model where the number of sources we're always going to increase the depth and breadth of information was always going to increase. The previous generation systems were not geared to handle that. So we decided that not only would we use at scale compute capabilities in the cloud, um, with the products like AWS as the backbone, but also solve some of the core problems around how more sources of information can be unified at scale. And then the last mile, which is the ability to consume such rich information, just locking it in a data warehouse has been sort of the problem in the past. And you talked about the clickstream analysis, uh, analytics has a place, but most of the analytics is a rear view mirror picture of the, uh, you know, work that you have to do, versus everybody that we talked to, uh, as a potential customer, wanted to solve the problem of what can we do at the point of engagement, how can we influence decisions? >>So, you know, I'll give you an example. I think, uh, everybody's familiar with Quicken loans, um, as the mortgage lender and, uh, in the mortgage lending business, uh, Quicken loans is the customer who's using Reltio as the customer data, um, unification platform behind the scenes. But every interaction that takes place, their goal is that they have a very narrow time window, um, you know, anywhere from 10 minutes to about an hour, where if somebody expresses an interest in refinancing or getting a mortgage, they have to close that, uh, business within that, uh, Hart window, the conversion ratios are exponentially better in that hot window versus waiting for 48 hours to come back with the answer of what will you be able to refinance your mortgage, uh, at. And, uh, they've been able to use this notion of real time data, where as soon as you come in through the website, or if you come in through the rocket mortgage app, or you're talking to a broker by calling the one 800 number, they are able to triangulate that it's the same person coming from any of these different channels and respond to that person, whether an offer, uh, ASAP so that, uh, there is no opportunity for the competition to get in and present you with a better offer. >>So those are the types of things where the time to, uh, conversion or the time to action is being looked at. And everybody's trying to shrink that time down, uh, that ability to respond in real time with the capabilities was sort of the last mile missing out of this equation, which didn't exist with previous generation capabilities. And now customers are able to benefit from that. >>That is an awesome example. I know at firsthand, I'm a customer of Quicken and rocket, and when you experience that environment, it's totally different than anything you've ever seen before. So it's helpful to hear you explain, like what's behind that because it's, it's truly disruptive. And I, and I'll tell you, the other thing that, that sort of triggered a thought was that we use the word realtime a lot, and we try to develop years ago. We said, what does real-time really mean? And the, the answer we CA we landed on was before you lose the customer, and that's kind of what you just described. Uh, and that is what gives as an example, a quick and a real advantage again, having experienced it firsthand. It's, it's pretty, pretty tremendous. So that's a nice, that's a, that's a nice reference. Um, so, and the other thing that struck me is that what I wanted to ask you, how it's different from sort of legacy master data management solutions, and you sort of described that they've seized to me, they got to take their, their traditional on-prem stack, rip it out, stick it in the cloud is okay, we got our stack in the cloud. >>Now your technical approach is dramatically different. You had the advantage of having a clean sheet of paper, right? I mean, from a, from an CTO's perspective, what's your, >>Yeah. The clean sheet of paper is the luxury that we have, you know, having seen this movie before having, um, you know, looked at solving this problem with previous generation technologies, it was really the opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper and define a cloud native architecture for solving the problem at scale. So just to give you an example, um, you know, across all of our customers, we are today managing, um, uh, about 6.5 billion consolidated profiles of people, organizations, product locations, um, you know, assets, uh, those kinds of details. And these are, these are the types of, uh, crown jewels of the business that every business runs on. You know, for example, if you wanted to, um, let's say you're a large company, like, uh, you know, Ford and you wanted to figure out how much business are you doing, where the, uh, you know, another large company, because the other large company could be a global organization, could be spread across multiple geographies, could have multiple subsidiaries associated with it. >>It's been a very difficult answer to understand what is the total book of business that they have with that other, um, big, uh, customer and, uh, you know, being able to have the right, uh, unified, uh, relevant, rich clean as the starting point that gives you visibility to that data, and then allows you to run precise analytics on top of that data, or, uh, you know, drive, uh, any kind of, uh, conclusions out of the data science type of algorithms or MLAI algorithms that you're trying to run. Um, you have to have that foundation of clean data to work with in order to get to those answers. >>Nice. Uh, and then I had questions on just the model is this, it's a SAS model. I presume, how, how is it priced? Do you have a, do you have a freemium? How do I get started? Maybe you could give us some color. >>Yeah, we are a SAS provider. We do everything in the cloud, uh, offer it as a SAS offering, um, for customers to leverage and benefit from our pricing is based on the volume of, uh, uh, consolidated profiles. And the, I use the word profiles because this is not the traditional, uh, data model where you have rows columns, foreign keys. This is a, you know, a profile of a customer, regardless of attribution or any other details that you want to capture. And, um, you know, that just as an example is what we consider as a profile. So number of consolidated profiles under management is the key vector of pricing. Uh, customers can start small and they can grow from there. We have customers who manage anywhere from a few hundred thousand profiles, uh, you know, off these different types of data domains, customer, patient provider, uh, product, uh, asset, those types of details. But, uh, then they grow and some of the customers, uh, HP Inc, as a customer is managing close to 1.5 billion profiles of B2B businesses at a global scale of B2C consumers at global scale. And they continue to expand that footprint as they look at other opportunities to use the single source of truth capabilities provided by Reltio. >>And your relationship with AWS you're, you're obviously building on top of AWS, you're taking advantage of the cloud native capabilities. Are you in the AWS marketplace? Maybe you could talk about AWS relationship a bit. >>Yeah. AWS has been a key partner for us, uh, since the very beginning, uh, we are now on the marketplace. Uh, customers can start with the free version of the product, um, and start to play with the product, understand it better, uh, and then move into the paid tier, um, you know, as they bring in more data, uh, into Reltio. And, uh, you know, we also, uh, have, uh, the partnership with AWS where, uh, you know, customers can benefit from the relationship where they are able to, um, uh, use the, the spend against Reltio to offset the commitment credits that they have for AWS, um, you know, as a cloud provider. So, uh, you know, we are working closely with AWS on key verticals, like life sciences, travel and hospitality as a starting point. >>Nice that love, love, those credits, um, company update, uh, you know, head count funding, revenue trajectory, what kind of metrics are you comfortable sharing? >>So, uh, we are currently, uh, at about, um, you know, slightly North of 300 people, uh, overall at rail queue, we will, uh, grow from 300 to about 400 people this year, uh, itself. Uh, we are, uh, uh, you know, we just put out a press release, uh, where we mentioned some of the subscription ARR we finished last year at about $74 million in ARR. And we are, uh, looking at, uh, crossing the a hundred million dollar ARR, um, uh, threshold, uh, later this year. So we're on a great growth trajectory and, uh, the businesses, uh, performing really well. And we are, uh, looking at working with more customers and helping them solve this, uh, uh, you know, data silo, fragmentation of data problem by having them leverage the Reltio capability at scale across their enterprise. >>That's some impressive growth. Congratulations, w w we're, I'm sure adding a hundred people you're hiring all over the place, but where we get some of your priorities. >>So, um, you know, the, as the business is growing, we are spending equally both on the R and D side of the house, uh, investing more there, but at the same time, also on our go to market, uh, so that we can extend our reach, make sure that, uh, more people know about, uh, Reltio and can start leveraging the benefit of, uh, the technology that we have built on top of, uh, AWS. >>Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you've obviously nailed product market fit, and now you're, you know, scaling and scaling the go to market. You moved from CEO into the CTO role. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Why, why, what was prompted that move >>Problems of luxury, uh, you know, as I like to call them, uh, once you know, that you're on a great growth trajectory and, uh, the business is performing well, it's all about, uh, figuring out ways of, uh, you know, making sure that you can drive harder and faster towards that growth, uh, milestones, uh, that you want to achieve. And, uh, you know, for us, uh, the story is no different. Uh, the team has done a wonderful job of, uh, making sure that we can build the right platform, um, you know, work towards this opportunity, that PC, which by the way, um, they just to share with you, uh, MDM or master data management has always been underestimated as a, uh, you know, yes, there is a problem that needs to be solved, but the market sizing was, uh, in a, not as clear, but some of the most recent, uh, estimates from analysts like Gartner, but the, uh, you know, sort of the new incarnation of, uh, data unification and master data management at about a $30 billion, uh, you know, uh, Tam or this market. >>So with that comes the responsibility that we have to really make sure that we are able to bring this capability to a wide array of customers. And with that, uh, I looked at, uh, you know, how could we scale the business faster and have the right team to work, uh, help us maximize the opportunity. And that's why, uh, you know, we decided, uh, that it was the right point in time for me to bring in somebody who's, uh, worked, uh, at, uh, the stretch of, you know, taking a company from just a a hundred million dollars in ARR to, uh, you know, half a billion dollars in ARR and doing it at a global scale. So Chris Highland, uh, you know, has had that experience and having him take on the CEO role, uh, really puts us on a tremendous, uh, our path to tremendous growth and achieving that, uh, with the right team. >>Yeah. And I think I appreciate your comments on the Tam. I love to look at the Tam and to do a lot of Tam analysis. And I think a lot of times when you define the future Tam based on sort of historical categories, you sometimes under count them. I mean, to me, you guys are in the, the, the digital business business. I mean, the data transformation, the company transformation business, I mean, that could be order of magnitude even bigger. So I think the future is bright for your company. Reltio Maneesh. And thank you so much for coming on the program really appreciate. >>Well, thanks for having me, uh, really enjoyed it. Thank you. >>Okay. Thank you for watching. You're watching the cubes startup showcase. We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> It's my pleasure, to be one of the hosts of theCUBE on cloud and the startup showcase brought to you by AWS. This is Dave Vellante and for years theCUBE has been following the trail of data. And with the relentless match of data growth this idea of a single version of the truth has become more and more elusive. Moreover, data has become the lifeblood of a digital business. And if there's one thing that we've learned throughout the pandemic, if you're not digital, you're in trouble. So we've seen firsthand, the critical importance of reliable and trusted data. And with me to talk about his company and the trends in the market is Manish Sood the CTO and co-founder of Reltio. Manish, welcome to the program. >> Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. >> Okay, let's start with, let's go back to you and your co-founders when you started Reltio it was back in the early days of the big data movement, cloud was kind of just starting to take off, but what problems did you see then and what are enterprises struggling with today, especially with data as a source of digital innovation. >> Dave, if you look at the changes that have taken place in the landscape over the course of the last 10 years, when we started Reltio in 2011 there were a few secular trends that were coming to life. One was a cloud compute type of capabilities being provided by vendors like AWS. It was starting to pick up steam where making compute capabilities available at scale to solve large data problems was becoming real and possible. The second thing that we saw was this big trend of you know, you can not have a wall to wall, one single application that solves your entire business problem. Those visions have come and gone and we are seeing more of the best of breed application type of a landscape where even if you look within a specific function let's say sales or marketing, you have more than a dozen applications that any company is using today. And that trend was starting to emerge where we knew very well that the number of systems that we would have to work with would continue to increase. And that created a problem of where would you get the single source of truth or the single best origin of a customer, a supplier, a product that you're trying to sell, those types of critical pieces of information that are core to any business that's out there today. And, you know, that created the opportunity for us at Reltio to think about the problem at scale for every company out there, every business who needed this kind of capability and for us to provide this capability in the cloud as a software, as a service offering. So that's where, you know, the foundation of Reltio started. And the core problem that we wanted to solve was to bridge the gap that was created by all these data silos, and create a unified view of the core critical information that these companies run on. >> Yeah, the cloud is this giant, you know hyper distributed system, data by its very nature is distributed. It's interesting what you were sort of implying about you know, the days of the monolithic app are gone, but my business partner years ago John Furrier at theCUBE said, data is going to become the new development kit. And we've certainly seen that with the pandemic but tell us more about Reltio and how you help customers deal with that notion of data silos, data fragmentation, how do you solve that problem? >> So data fragmentation is what exists today. And, with the Reltio software as a service offering that we provide, we allow customers to stitch together and unify the data coming from these different fragmented siloed applications or data sources that they have within their enterprise. At the same time, there's a lot of dependence on the third party data. You know, when you think about different problems that you're trying to solve, you have for B2B type of information that in Bradstreet type of data providers, in life sciences you have IQVIA type of data providers. You know, as you look at other verticals that is a specialized third party data provider for any and every kind of information that most of the enterprise businesses want to combine with their in-house data or first party data to get the best view of who they're dealing with, who are they working with, you know who are the customers that they're serving and use that information also as a starting point for the digital transformation that they want to get to. And that's where Reltio fits in as the only platform that can help stitch together this kind of information and create a 360 degree view that spans all the data silos and provides that for real-time use, for BI and analytics to benefit from, for data science to benefit from, and then this emerging notion of data in itself is a, you know, key starting point that is used by us in order to make any decisions. Just like we go, you know, if I they wanted to look at information about you, I would go to places like LinkedIn, look up the information, and then on my next set of decisions with that information. If somebody wanted to look up information on Reltio they would go to, let's say crunchbase as an example and look up, who are the investors? How much money have we raised? All those details that are available. It's not a CRM system by itself but it is an information application that can aid and assist in the decision-making process as a starting point. And that user experience on top of the data becomes an important vehicle for us to provide as a part of the Reltio platform capabilities. >> Awesome, thank you. And I want to get into the tech, but before we do maybe we just cut to the chase and maybe you can talk about some of the examples of Reltio and action, some of the customers that you can talk about, maybe the industries that are really adopting this. What can you tell us there Manish? >> We work across a few different verticals some of the key verticals that we work in are life sciences and travel and hospitality and financial services, insurance retail, as an example. Those are some of the key verticals for us. But to give you some examples of the type of problems that customers are solving with Reltio as the data unification platform, let's take CarMax as an example,. CarMax is a customer who's in the business of buying used cars, selling used cars servicing those used cars. And then, you know, you as a customer don't just transact with them once, you know, you've had a car for three years you go back and look at what can you trade in that car for? But in order for CarMax to provide a service to you that goes across all the different touch points whether you are visiting them at their store location trying to test drive a car or viewing information about the various vehicles on their website, or just you know, punching in the registration number of your car just to see what is the appraisal from them in terms of how much will they pay for your car. This requires a lot of data behind the scenes for them to provide a seamless journey across all touch points. And the type of information that they use relative for aggregating, unifying, and then making available across all these touch points, is all of the information about the customers, all of the information about the household, you know, the understanding that they are trying to achieve because life events can be buying signals for consumers like you and I, as well as who was the associate who helped you either in the selling of a car, buying of a car, because their business is all about building relationships for the longer term, lifetime value that they want to capture. And in that process, making sure that they're providing continuity of relationship, they need to keep track of that data. And then the vehicle itself, the vehicle that you buy yourself, there is a lot of information in order to price it right, that needs to be gathered from multiple sources. So the continuum of data all the way from consumer to the vehicle is aggregated from multiple sources, unified inside Reltio and then made available through APIs or through other methods and means to the various applications, can be either built on top of that information, or can consume that information in order to better aid and assist the processes, business processes that those applications have to run and to end. >> Well, sounds like we come along, (indistinct). >> I was just going to say that's one example and, you know across other verticals, that are other similar examples of how companies are leveraging, Reltio >> Yeah, so as you say, we've come a long way from simple linear clickstream analysis of a website. I mean, you're talking about really rich information and you know happy to dig into some other examples, but I wonder how does it work? I mean, what's the magic behind it? What's the tech look like? I mean, obviously leveraging AWS, maybe you could talk about how, so, and maybe some of the services there and some of your unique IP. >> Yeah, you know, so the unique opportunity for us when we started in 2011 was really to leverage the power of the cloud. We started building out this capability on top of AWS back in 2011. And, you know, if you think about the problem itself, the problem has been around as long as you have had more than one system to run your business, but the magnitude of the problem has expanded several fold. You know, for example, I have been in this area was responsible for creating some of the previous generation capabilities and most of the friction in those previous generation MDM or master data management type of solutions as the you know, the technical term that is used to refer to this area, was that those systems could not keep pace with the increasing number of sources or the depth and breadth of the information that customers want to capture, whether it is, you know, about a patient or a product or let's say a supplier that you're working with, there is always additional information that you can capture and you know use to better inform the decisions for the next engagement. And that kind of model where the number of sources we're always going to increase the depth and breadth of information was always going to increase. The previous generation systems were not geared to handle that. So we decided that not only would we use add scale compute capabilities in the cloud, with the products like AWS as the backbone, but also solve some of the core problems around how more sources of information can be unified at scale. And then the last mile, which is the ability to consume such rich information just locking it in a data warehouse has been sort of the problem in the past, and you talked about the clickstream analysis. Analytics has a place, but most of the analytics is a real view mirror picture of the, you know, work that you have to do versus everybody that we talk to as a potential customer wanted to solve the problem of what can we do at the point of engagement? How can we influence decisions? So, you know, I'll give you an example. I think everybody's familiar with Quicken loans as the mortgage lender, and in the mortgage lending business, Quicken loans is the customer who's using Reltio as the customer data unification platform behind the scenes. But every interaction that takes place, their goal is that they have a very narrow time vendor, you know anywhere from 10 minutes to about an hour where if somebody expresses an interest in refinancing or getting a mortgage they have to close that business within that hot vendor. The conversion ratios are exponentially better in that hot vendor versus waiting for 48 hours to come back with the answer of what will you be able to refinance your mortgage at? And they've been able to use this notion of real time data where as soon as you come in through the website or if you come in through the rocket mortgage app or you're talking to a broker by calling the 1800 number they are able to triangulate that it's the same person coming from any of these different channels and respond to that person with an offer ASAP so that there is no opportunity for the competition to get in and present you with a better offer. So those are the types of things where the time to conversion or the time to action is being looked at, and everybody's trying to shrink that time down. That ability to respond in real time with the capabilities were sort of the last mile missing out of this equation, which didn't exist with previous generation capabilities, and now customers are able to benefit from that. >> That is an awesome example. I know at firsthand, I'm a customer of Quicken and rocket when you experience that environment, it's totally different, than anything you've ever seen before. So it's helpful to hear you explain like what's behind that because, it's truly disruptive and I'll tell you the other thing that sort of triggered a thought was that we use the word realtime a lot and we try to develop years ago. We said, what does real-time really mean? And the answer we landed on was, before you lose the customer, and that's kind of what you just described. And that is what gives as an example a quick and a real advantage again, having experienced it firsthand. It's pretty, pretty tremendous. So that's a nice reference. So, and the other thing that struck me is, I wanted to ask you how it's different from sort of legacy Master Data Management solutions and you sort of described that they've since to me they've got to take their traditional on-prime stack, rip it out, stick it in the iCloud, it's okay we got our stack in the cloud now. Your technical approach is dramatically different. You had the advantage of having a clean sheet of paper, right? I mean, from a CTO's perspective, what's your take? >> Yeah, the clean sheet of paper is the luxury that we have. You know, having seen this movie before having, you know looked at solving this problem with previous generation technologies, it was really the opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper and define a cloud native architecture for solving the problem at scale. So just to give you an example, you know, across all of our customers, we are today managing about 6.5 billion consolidated profiles of people, organizations, product, locations, you know, assets, those kinds of details. And these are the types of crown jewels of the business that every business runs on. You know, for example, if you wanted to let's say you're a large company, like, you know, Ford and you wanted to figure out how much business are you doing, whether, you know another large company, because the other large company could be a global organization, could be spread across multiple geographies, could have multiple subsidiaries associated with it. It's been a very difficult to answer to understand what is the total book of business that they have with that other big customer. And, you know, being able to have the right, unified, relevant, ready clean information as the starting point that gives you visibility to that data, and then allows you to run precise analytics on top of that data, or, you know drive any kind of conclusions out of the data science type of algorithms or MLAI algorithms that you're trying to run. You have to have that foundation of clean data to work with in order to get to those answers. >> Nice, and then I had questions on just analysis, it's a SAS model I presume, how is it priced? Do you have a freemium? How do I get started? Maybe you could give us some color on that. >> Yeah, we are a SAS provider. We do everything in the cloud, offer it as a SAS offering for customers to leverage and benefit from. Our pricing is based on the volume of consolidated profiles, and I use the word profiles because this is not the traditional data model, where you have rows, columns, foreign keys. This is a profile of a customer, regardless of attribution or any other details that you want to capture. And you know, that just as an example is what we consider as a profile. So number of consolidated profiles under management is the key vector of pricing. Customers can start small and they can grow from there. We have customers who manage anywhere from a few hundred thousand profiles, you know, off these different types of data domains, customer, patient, provider, product, asset, those types of details, but then they grow and some of the customers HPInc, as a customer, is managing close to 1.5 billion profiles of B2B businesses at a global scale of B2C consumers at global scale. And they continue to expand that footprint as they look at other opportunities to use, the single source of truth capabilities provided by Reltio. >> And, and your relationship with AWS, you're obviously building on top of AWS, you're taking advantage of the cloud native capabilities. Are you in the AWS marketplace? Maybe you could talk about AWS relationship a bit. >> Yeah, AWS has been a key partner for us since the very beginning. We are now on the marketplace. Customers can start with the free version of the product and start to play with the product, understand it better and then move into the paid tier, you know as they bring in more data into Reltio and, you know be also have the partnership with AWS where, you know customers can benefit from the relationship where they are able to use the spend against Reltio to offset the commitment credits that they have for AWS, you know, as a cloud provider. So, you know, we are working closely with AWS on key verticals, like life sciences, travel and hospitality as a starting point. >> Nice, love those credits. Company update, you know, head count, funding, revenue trajectory what kind of metrics are you comfortable sharing? >> So we are currently at about, you know, slightly not at 300 people overall at Reltio. We will grow from 300 to about 400 people this year itself we are, you know, we just put out a press release where we mentioned some of the subscription ARR we finished last year at about $74 million in ARR. And we are looking at crossing the hundred million dollar ARR threshold later this year. So we are on a great growth trajectory and the business is performing really well. And we are looking at working with more customers and helping them solve this, you know, data silo, fragmentation of data problem by having them leverage the Reltio capability at scale across their enterprise. >> That's some impressive growth, congratulations. We're, I'm sure adding hundred people you're hiring all over the place, but where we are some of your priorities? >> So, you know, the, as the business is growing we are spending equally, both on the R and D side of the house investing more there, but at the same time also on our go to market so that we can extend our reach, make sure that more people know about Reltio and can start leveraging the benefit of the technology that we have built on top of AWS. >> Yeah, I mean it sounds like you've obviously nailed product market fit and now you're, you know, scaling the grip, go to market. You moved from CEO into the CTO role. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Why, what was prompted that move? >> Problems of luxury, you know, as I like to call them once you know that you're in a great growth trajectory, and the business is performing well, it's all about figuring out ways of, you know making sure that you can drive harder and faster towards that growth milestones that you want to achieve. And, you know, for us, the story is no different. The team has done a wonderful job of making sure that we can build the right platform, you know work towards this opportunity that we see, which by the way they've just to share with you, MDM or Master Data Management has always been underestimated as a, you know, yes there is a problem that needs to be solved but the market sizing was in a, not as clear but some of the most recent estimates from analysts like Gartner, but the, you know, sort of the new incarnation of data unification and Master Data Management at about a $30 billion, yeah, TAM for this market. So with that comes the responsibility that we have to really make sure that we are able to bring this capability to a wide array of customers. And with that, I looked at, you know how could we scale the business faster and have the right team to work help us maximize the opportunity. And that's why, you know, we decided that it was the right point in time for me to bring in somebody who's worked at the stretch of, you know taking a company from just a hundred million dollars in ARR to, you know, half a billion dollars in ARR and doing it at a global scale. So Chris Highland, you know, has had that experience and having him take on the CEO role really puts us on a tremendous path or path to tremendous growth and achieving that with the right team. >> Yeah, and I think I appreciate your comments on the TAM. I love to look at the TAM and to do a lot of TAM analysis. And I think a lot of times when you define the the future TAM based on sort of historical categories, you sometimes under count them. I mean, to me you guys are in the digital business. I mean, the data transformation the company transformation business, I mean that could be order of magnitude even bigger. So I think the future is bright for your company Reltio, Manish and thank you so much for coming on the program. Really appreciate it. >> Well, thanks for having me, really enjoyed it. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you for watching. You're watching theCUBEs Startup Showcase. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studio today, the COVID thing is continuing to go, and one of the huge impacts, right, is obviously in the conference business, our world. Those things have all been canceled or made virtual, and everyone's still trying to figure out, what does a virtual event look like, what are the characteristics of it, and we're really excited to have one of our favorite CUBE alumni, guest host extraordinaire, Keith Townsend. You know him as the CTO advisor joining us, Keith jumped in with both feet, right when this thing went down, and said "I'm going to have my own CTO Advisor "virtual conference," so first off, Keith, I miss you, great to see you, we haven't run into each other at the Sands in an awfully long time, so great to see you, how are you doing? >> Good to see you, if it's only virtual, good to see you too, Jeff. >> So tell us about your decision to jump in with both feet, and go ahead and test the waters on this virtual conference concept. >> So I talked about this a little bit on a random, just a YouTube update, but roughly 30, 35% of my revenue comes from in-person events. And plus my brand, The CTO Advisor, is tied to people seeing me on theCUBE, seeing me at the shows, creating the content, kind of on the ground, guerrilla style, kind of like how John started out early on. So we needed a practical solution for most things, one, we feed off the energy of the community, so we need to be on the ground as much as possible, so that we can create content and get you guys the stories and the data that you need to make purchasing decisions, and two, we needed the practical problem of solving our own revenue problems, so we jumped in, head in, to say "Let's do a virtual event." I don't know if I would've done it if I wasn't as naive as I was back then, but we jumped in. >> So before we jump into the processes, make sure, give us a full-on plug, when is it, where should people go, registration I assume is still open, want to just get that out there for the folks. >> So even if you see this after registration closes, quote unquote closes, it's April 21st, >> 10: 30 AM central to 3:30 PM central, that's US time. You can register at CTOAdvisorVirtualConference.com. >> Excellent, so let's talk about some of the interesting things about virtual. One of the things as you said in a physical event, you've got people, you've got time and space and geography that we all come together in that space, and there's a lot of advantages to everybody being at the same place at the same time. A virtual event, almost by definition, is now you've broken up the segments of content capture, if you will, and creation, which can or cannot be on that date. The actual display, or the publishing of that content, if you will, and then the consumption of that content, which may or may not happen on the 21st. How have you worked with this expanded palette, if you will, to be able to work in an asynchronous world, and how are you finding it in terms of actually day to day execution? >> So you guys have done plenty of remote content at this point. When you're in theCUBE studio, you have commercial internet, it's fairly reliable when you're on premises, maybe a little bit less reliable from the sense that it's conference-centered, but it's still enterprise class internet access, so you can do real-time video on theCUBE fine. We can go to Cube.tv, Cube.net, and see what you guys are doing real-time, and it's pretty much without blip. In the virtual conference world, what we're dealing with where I'm coming in, remote to you, while my video and audio looks fine now, it may blip. So we embrace two things. We embrace the fact that this is a virtual event, so in a background, you'll see that we're in Keith Townsend's basement, the other thing that you'll see is that we won't produce live content, because there's not much value in it being live, if I can't interact with you. One of the great things about theCUBE, is that it's live, but there's this element that people are on the ground, they're watching it live, they're interacting with it live, we're tweeting about it, so how do you reproduce, if not that exact feeling of it being live and you're being part of it, but the conversation around the content, and that's what we focused on, creating high quality video content, that you can consume, kind of as a watch party, so on Twitter, in the platform that we're using, we're having conversations real-time, so that you can enjoy the community, and the speakers who are presenting, you can interact with them because they're not presenting real-time, they're in the chat room, they're on Twitter, they're running as their session is running, and they're able to interact with you, so we've embraced the medium, and then after the fact of course we can do all kinds of things to run asynchronous content after the fact, 'cause the majority of people will watch it after the video's done. >> All right, and I'm just curious, how many sessions are you going to have, approximately? >> So we have I think 21 sessions, in a five hour period, so we're running three separate tracks, two super techy, geeky tracks, then a sponsored track is kind of by itself, and we're not expecting everyone to consume it all at one time. >> Right, you know it's just so interesting to me, talking about your tracks. If you were to go rent a venue, that had the capacity to run 21 tracks over five hours, it'd be a pretty decent-sized venue, it'd be expensive, and then you would have to pick your sessions and your tracks based on the limitations of the budget that you had and the window that you had of rooms that you could put these people in, and who could do it now, when, there, the other thing, and so it's really interesting that now this opens up the amount of sessions, is really a function of what you can manage, or what the community can kind of self-organize, you're not really limited by how many rooms are in the Sands Convention Center, and the other thing that you brought up, which I think people completely miss is that if the content is recorded in advance and puts in the can, to your point, the presenter can actually participate in the conversation while the session is happening, which they can't do in a physical event, because they're actually presenting, so, we had a guy in the other day, Ben Nelson, he talked about a car is not a mechanical horse, it's not the same, digital's not the same as physical, and there are some things that aren't as cool, but there's a whole lot of things that you can do in the digital space that you can't do in the physical space. >> Yeah, a lot of my presenters were kind of put off by the idea of, "Wait, hold on, I'm not going to present live? "How will I interact with webinars now?" And I think this is the other end of the spectrum, Jeff, I think you guys have probably found this too, it's not a in-person event, and it's also not a webinar, so don't treat it as a webinar. You don't have to have these canned, phony questions that some people have behind the scenes, it is a real, authentic thing. Oddly enough, I discovered this as part of helping my church put on their worship service. I was watching the service, I'll look off the screen a little bit to the left, I was watching the service, and the minister's delivering his sermon, and in the Zoom meeting, there he is, playing with his little two year old daughter, while he's giving the talk, and I just opened chat at him, and next thing I know there's an explosion of conversation around just life and the topic at hand, so it is a really unique experience. >> Yeah, I think that's a really important point, it's not only what is a digital event, but what is it not, and it can't be a webinar, and when we were first going through this kind of shake-up, and we were really trying to identify some of those things, and we specifically did not want a digital event to be a webinar, 'cause what's a webinar, it's generally a one way communication of information for the vast majority of the session that you're sitting there, and they only open it up to Q&A at the very end, and it's only a moderated Q&A that very few people get a chance to get their question in, and you don't know how they're picking, and it only goes to the hosts, so, really having an open, live engagement around an engaged group of people, with a piece of content as kind of the coalescing of those people, really, it's not a webinar, it's a very different kind of experience, and sounds like you're really embracing that. >> Yeah, it'll never replace a live event, live has, again we talked about the energy, the, people are like "Do you really "want to smell the Sands, Keith?" You know what, it's all part of the energy, it's instant reminders to "Oh, I remember when I interviewed Pat Gelsinger here," and you have these instant cues that we as humans love, we don't get that, but I think it is something that's going to be with us to stay and it'll augment, I'd love to hear how you guys are thinking about how being able to have this capability will augment theCUBE once we return to physical events. >> Yeah, I mean I think this behavior that we're now been forced to engage in, in terms of increased working from home, and kind of increased use of videoconferencing, and that is a different communication mode, I think those behaviors are going to stick quite a bit, actually, I think if you look at what a conference is, there's a couple different tracks, as you said, there's the expression going around, kind of the rally moment, right, the keynote, we want, we have a strong message, the CEO wants to get something out, and I think that's of tremendous value, but then you look at all the breakout sessions and the information flow and the community engagement, those quite frankly can be done online much more efficiently and with much less cost, so will the new conference be kind of this, the celebration and basically a customer appreciation event, they want to have a party, but really that, I don't think it will be quite the information flow, 'cause why should product group A wait until the conference date, if they're ready to release their information, and wait for product group B or C or D, so this kind of forced aggregation of the communication into this very small window of three days in Vegas, I don't think it makes any sense, you know, it's Waterfall versus DevOps, and if this group's got stuff and they're ready to go, again, why hold the information back, it really doesn't make sense, and decouple the customer celebration, the rally moment, if you will, and the education, they don't necessarily have to be this contiguous big unit for three days in Vegas. >> Yeah, I'm looking forward to first quarter 2021, usually January, February, first half of March, really slow news channel product teams release stuff and they really want some big stage to release it, I think this will really make the dissemination of information coming from product teams super interesting as folks like theCUBE, The CTO Advisor, we're able to put on independent events virtually that have a sense of gravitas to it, that our partners will come and embrace. >> Yeah, the other thing, Keith, and I wonder, as you've been collecting your content for your show next week is that, the pressure on the quality of the content has escalated dramatically, right? If you're stuck in a huge conference hall, surrounded by 10,000 people, in the middle of a keynote that's not that exciting, it's kind of hard to get up and walk out. But if you're sitting at your desk with the entire world an alt-tab away, not to mention pesky things like email and Slack and everything else that we have as a distraction, it's really going to come in on the content provider and the engaged community to deliver, or else you're going to lose the audience, and I think it's going to be really interesting, people that overly have relied on the 100 foot video screen and the electronic violin music in the morning, and some of these tips and tricks, aren't going to carry the weight, because if it's just you sitting in front of a screen and you got to deliver the message, it's got to be crisp, it's got to be powerful, and it's got to be engaging, or people are just going to step away. >> And more importantly, how do you bring people back? So, you know how, when I take a break at a conference, I'm kind of captured. Eventually I'm going to walk back to the conference center, I might go back out to take a call, et cetera, but getting people to come back, even if the content has been awesome and engaging and great, how do you get 'em to come back, they don't have to come back that day, or even real time, but they have to come back to the portal, so we're working on kind of the next 30 days after the event, this is the thing that's really funny about putting on a virtual event, there's kind of the exhale after the day of the event, a virtual event, you know what, you've got a third of your audience that first day, a third of the audience the next week, and then the rest of the audience creeps in over the next three or four weeks, and how do you engage them, how do you get them to come back, and ultimately consume your content and your message? It's something that I haven't, I don't know if I've cracked the formula for it yet, but it is going to be a very interesting challenge. >> Yeah, but I think we have, right, in the way, how do you consume video today, how do you find information, right, you go to YouTube or to Google and you search, right, and right now the biggest phenom in pop media is the Tiger King, right, so when do people watch the Tiger King, how do they hear about the Tiger King, when do they actually sit down and watch it, has nothing to do with when you watch it unless we decide to trade messages, I say "Hey, Keith, have you seen the new episode?" So when you look at consumption patterns, to me it's really interesting, it's kind of bifurcated, you either binge watch, and just really get into something that you're into, and you just go go go for hours and hours and hours, or you're getting snippets, you're getting little quick hits, quick hits, quick hits, and I think it's this kind of ugly middle, where you don't have enough content or richness or engagement to have people hang, but you're a little bit longer than a quick hit just to get your message out, and I think it's really going to kind of bifurcate, and the beauty of digital is you can consume it in lots of different ways, and piece parts, and you don't have to necessarily kind of sit through kind of a straight row consumption as a captive audience, I think the opportunity's really really good, if the content is up to snuff, properly tagged, search terms, all those types of things of course as well. >> So yeah, John talks about the value of community a lot, and one of our co-hosts on theCUBE, and also a CUBE alum is Corey Quinn, and he does a really great job of this with curating content after it's been consumed live. He'll to his audience say "You know what, I'm going to live tweet this session "from three months ago," and that refreshes the conversation, it's not about when the content was created, it's about the conversation, as long as it's relevant, and finding mediums to help amplify that message. >> Yeah, I think it's just a great opportunity, you know, we used to do some work with Live Nation in another lifetime, right, and Live Nation around concerts, they had that particular event when you go to the show, and a lot of their efforts on the marketing side were what they call extending the glow, right, extending the glow after, and also kind of building the excitement before, and moving that window of that event to more than just the night that the show played, and I think we've got the same opportunity here, that's why again if you get good quality content, it's not speeds and feeds, but it's evergreen themes that have legs, you can go back to that well and you can stir that thing up, and you can get it back out there again, and then again hopefully people stumble upon it, whether it's via community or whatever. The other thing I think that's really interesting is you talked about community, and you talked about QuinnyPig, @QuinnyPig I think is his Twitter handle, is this whole idea of collaboration, and I think that's another thing that we can take from the internet, I know you do a lot of that, so working with other influencers if you will, or other people in the communities, and introducing each other's community to one another, I think it's a really big part of what makes a lot of the big YouTubers famous is that they do things together and they kind of cross-pollinate their communities, and if there's some overlap there then they both have kind of a win-win, and again I think in digital, where you don't have destruction, you don't have single use, you can use stuff more than once, it really opens up this opportunity for much more win-win, let's work together, and build community together, cross leverage, versus it's either yours or mine, and it's really more of a competitive thing. >> And I've been collaborating a lot with some of my European peers, and you bring up a really interesting concept. Our friends at VMware's going to be putting on VMworld in the next few months, and they usually had a US conference and a European conference, were both pretty sizable conferences. It's basically going to run concurrently as one conference. So if it's going to run as one conference, why do I have to limit the live experience to the US timezone? Why can't I cater this, and why is it just a fixed hour, I don't know if it will be, but it shouldn't just be a fixed hour event, it's going to be a all-out hour event that's going to happen across Asia, Europe, and the US, and tailoring the content to each continent and time zone, and cross-pollinating, so that content that I would not have typically have gotten at the US event, or in the Europe event, I can now get that experience and cross-cultural flavor as a natural part of digital, so there's a lot of opportunity, there's a lot to miss about in-person events, but I think there's opportunities that are just massively untapped. >> Yeah, yeah, and I'm just going to get one more concept, which I don't think is getting enough action, get your take on it, but if you think of the value to the company, let's just stick with VMware for a minute, we're great fans of Pat and Sanjay, there is a information transfer when Pat gets up and does his keynote as from one to many tens of thousands, and there's value there, and again we talked about this rallying moment, but think of turning that on its head, which is really what digital provides, now there's an opportunity for Pat and Sanjay and the entire VMware senior team and junior team and product managers to now flip that information flow. So if you think of the user experience from the attendees' point of view, is it better for Sanjay to talk to 10,000 people in an audience, or would Sanjay rather hear from 10,000 people, and have that flow of information going back in? So if you think of it as a community event versus a one way communication of here's our exciting news, I think the value to the sponsor goes up dramatically, 'cause there's so much institutional knowledge and tribal knowledge and experience within all those people that are just sitting passively listening to that keynote. If this is a way to better suck that information back into the company, I don't think they'll ever go back to the other way it was. >> Yeah, two points, two data points on that. One, again, from the worship side of the house, at our Easter service, our church enabled every member who cared to to kind of do a five, eight second "Hey, this is the Townsend family, "happy Easter," and then 15 minutes before the live church service started, they just ran a video of family after family after family that I recognize, saying "Hi, happy Easter," so you have that moment, and how do you capture that online? VMware's social media team already does this well, they amplify end user content, there was a guy that did a video on how to install VMware Cloud Foundation in three hours, went viral. You have these opportunities, again, to hear from sources and have conversations that's really not practical from a typical conference perspective. I think I heard it best the other day, one of my attendees and presenters said "You know what, Keith, the virtual conference "is such a democratizing event because "it enables me, whether I could not afford "to go to a conference before, "or I couldn't travel, or whatever reasons "I could not attend a conference before," the virtual conference gives opportunities for collaborations that could not have taken place otherwise. >> Yeah, it's great, so again, Keith, thank you for spending a few minutes with us and sharing your thoughts, and again, for everybody, April 21st 2020, next week, >> 10: 30 AM central time, join the CTO virtual conference. Keith, always great to catch up, man. >> You too, Jeff, thanks a lot. >> All right, take care. He's Keith, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, thanks for watching, I'll see you next time. (calm music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE! Covering Microsoft Ignite, brought to you by Cohesity. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. We are here at the Orange County Convention Center in the middle of the show floor, one of Microsoft's biggest shows, 26,000 people from around the globe. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost, Stu Miniman, and we're joined by a third cohost, but he is also the Principal CTO Advisor, Keith Townsend. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me, guys. >> It's a pleasure to have you. So, you come to a lot of these shows, I'm interested in your thoughts and impressions of Microsoft Ignite 2019. >> So, I'm part of the V community, which is a pretty close knit community, very focused on one part of the whole IT pitch, which is infrastructure. It is amazing coming to a show like Microsoft Ignite where the breadth of content is so wide, and the conversation, so wide and, surprisingly, deep. This is been one of my, I think, favorite shows of the year so far. >> Talk about the content, you're absolutely right, we had so many product announcements, it felt like an Amazon Show, we were saying, because of the number of products that were being announced and demoed here. 87 pages from the Comms Team, so, does this feel like a different era for the company itself? >> You know what, Microsoft announced, I think UiPath has some crazy over billion dollar evaluation. Microsoft wildly announced that they're entering RPA, Robotic Process Automation, they're challenging SAP when it comes to data warehousing and data analytics. And then, they just happen to announce that, oh, yeah, by the way, we're making Kubernetes easier. Then, there's still the Teams announcements. The amount of content and the areas that Microsoft is going in, just to highlight it, Azure Arc replicates data, one of the jobs is replicate data, and they said they'll replicate data to AWS Cloud. Microsoft, great position. >> Keith, as you're alluding to, Microsoft has a large portfolio of applications. If you think business productivity, you're probably using Microsoft. Everything from Teams, that we're hearing a bunch about, to, of course, O365 is the solution that gave everybody the green light to go SaaS-ify as many of your applications as you will, and Arc, very much from what I've seen so far, takes that application specific view of Kubernetes, we know Kubernetes is supposed to help be that platform to build on top of, but, I've tended to hear a very infrastructure view of here's what you'll build in your data center and the compute network and storage that you need to think about, here's the IAS that it might live on. But, when you talk about Arc, they're talking about it's about SQL and databases and how those pieces go together. And this is a view for Microsoft, but, if you want to go do open shift, if you want to do spring with a Pivotal VMware or Tanzu with there, Microsoft, of course, is saying that that's your option but would love your view point so far as your Arc and where Microsoft sits in this broader ecosystem today. >> So, I'm coming off fresh a conversation with David Armor, the PM for Microsoft Arc for Azure stack, and their attention to detail is amazing. You know, I'm not the world's biggest Kubernetes fan, for some of the very reasons that you mentioned. It's too much attention to the details in order to provide a Kubernetes experience that developers will accept. Microsoft, a big developer focused company, so when you look at Arc and what it does for Kubernetes on Azure stack, it makes the provisioning, the storage networking, et cetera, invisible so that you can take Microsoft's cognitive services, deploy them on Azure stack, and just consume those services. Microsoft, again, when you look at it from a different angle, when you're not taking the infrastructure angle added and you're doing the whiz bang features of making sure that Kubernetes can do X, Y, and Z, more importantly, can I use it to build applications is Microsoft's approach, and you can see it in the Arc and how they approach it in the Azure stack. >> Absolutely, and you're talking, right now, about this app development for everyone. We had Satya Nadella, yesterday, talking about democratizing computing, anyone can do it, AI for all, too. What are the most exciting new tools that you're seeing, and what are the kinds of conversations that you're having with developers around these new tools? >> So, I just talked to a professional services architect, or an architect for professional services, one of the global big four's, and he was telling me that they've deployed RPA to the entire organization of over 100,000 consultants and end users, so that they can build robots to power the next phase of productivity increases within their organization. No rules, no constraints, just here's the tool, go out and do. Microsoft talked about 2.5 million non-technology focused developers, it is, I think, a key theory of the CTO advisors that their future of enterprise IT is that companies, like Microsoft, then, will push AI, machine learning, these robotic automation processes down to the end users so that they're creating the content. There's just not enough of Keiths and Stus in the world to do this by hand. So, great vision. >> And Keith, you brought up the SIs, and you've worked for some of the big SIs in the past. How is Microsoft doing out there? We've seen with Cloud and AI, the biggest guys, rolling out armies of people to help integrate this, to help customers adopt this. Cloud and AI, Cloud, specifically, was supposed to be cheap and easy and we know it's neither of those two things. So, if you look at Cloud and AI, how is Microsoft to be a partner with and I would love a little compare and contrast to the Vmwares and AWSs of the world. >> So, if you look, let's take a look at VMware, I'm a big VMware fan, but one of the things that if you're a VMware VAR, or you're in VMware period, if you go outside of your lane, that infrastructure lane, you go to have conversations, the technology is there. You can use VMware, vRealize, automation suites, the CloudHealth, the Heptio, they have the individual components, technology components, but they absolutely need the Pivotals of the world to go in and add credence to their talking points around these products because they don't have that reputation to come in and have the conversation with the CMOs or the application developers. Microsoft on the other hand, developers, developers, developers. And then, they also have Microsoft Dynamics, we ran into a customer, who was desperately just searching out, she came to the conference expecting to see Dynamic experts, and I'm sure she found them. Microsoft has the ecosystem to support their vision. >> One of the things we've been talking about on theCUBE this week, at Ignite, is that it seems like a different kind of Microsoft, it seems like one that is, not only embracing customers who choose Microsoft in addition to other companies, but championing them and supporting them and saying, "whatever you want, "we're meeting you where you are." Have you found that, and is that striking to you, based on the Microsoft of Yore, which was more proprietary about where it's customers went for it's technology. >> So, we mainly cover enterprise tech, but, I think today or tomorrow, the Surface Pro X gets released, which is an arm based device, that runs full version of Windows. I was in one of the Lightning talks, Microsoft Lightning talk, on a completely different topic, and at the bottom, they had a logo for UiPath, Automate Anywhere and Blue Prism, three of the, I think, leaders in a space of RPA. And they were talking about the integrations that Microsoft has gone on with these companies, and their own power automate was not even mentioned as part of that session. So, Microsoft is meeting customers where they're at. I think the AWS, the example for Arc, replicating to AWS, customers have AWS, they're the biggest Cloud provider, Microsoft isn't closing their eyes to it. >> Yeah, well, we noticed the biggest thing repeated over and over again in the key note yesterday was trust. And while the Microsoft of old days was you're going to buy my OS, and my apps, and everything Microsoft on top of it, and we're going to maximize our licensing, the Microsoft today is those choices. We talked to UiPath yesterday, they're not worried about their relationship with Microsoft. When I talked to the ecosystem of partners here, they trust that they can work with Microsoft. Compare that to some others out there in the industry, and the big Hyperscalers, there might not be as much trust. What I'm curious about, from you Keith, is do customers see that? Do they understand that today is a different Microsoft than the one that we grew up with? >> So, some of the conversation on Twitter, just remotely, people not here, this is the best Ignite I've ever seen. People who are not even here, this is from the keynote yesterday. I think customers are starting to embrace Microsoft and trust Microsoft. I think there's still some hold out, some people who remember this sting of forced to use Microsoft management suites on products that probably didn't integrate well with those suites. But, as that sting starts to subside, you have to look at it objectively and say, "Microsoft is a different company." This is not a show I think I would have enjoyed three years ago. >> What's driving it though? This is something we're seeing in the technology industry at large, this understanding of customers needing different things and wanting best in breed. But are there other elements that we're not privy to, would you say? >> I think it's the democratization of technology via Cloud. I talked to a just regular, small business owner. She runs a trucking business, she uses her computer as a tool, it was a five year old device, she really didn't care, did the job that she needed to do. We talked a business challenge that she was having, and I described Cloud in general and she never even considered Cloud as a thing. She just said, "you know what, "I want this solution and if it's Microsoft AWS or Google that provides it, or even VM Works." She didn't care, she wanted to buy it. And that relationship wasn't a traditional ISV, MSP, these are, I think, business owners and business leaders are being approached with, whether it's ISVs or consultants and business advisors, and they're being advised to adopt these technologies, regardless of the source. There's no loyalty anymore to just Microsoft. Remember when you bled blue? Whether it was IBM blue or Microsoft blue. I read an unfortunate article on one of the big ERP providers had a 100 million dollar failure, and the company just decided, you know what, we're not going to go with just one provider anymore, we're just going to go with best of breed across these business processes. >> So what does that mean for the competitive landscape? I mean, we talked a lot about this. Does Microsoft really have a shot at taking on AWS or will it always be number two. Well, Microsoft won a 10 billion dollar JEDI contract from the US. I wrote about this in my newsletter last week, is that one billion dollars over 10 years will make Microsoft Azure better. You can't help but to have that type of discipline that comes from a contract like that impact Azure. Will they catch up with Microsoft, I mean, with AWS? AWS is still a very, very small fraction of the overall IT landscape. That business owner I talked to never heard of AWS. 50,000 person conference in a month, she only knew Amazon as a book seller. So, to say that Microsoft won't catch up with AWS is a very, very short view of the landscape. >> We're just scratching the surface when it comes to Cloud. >> Keith, what other thing have you seen at the show jumping out at you? You said you might not have enjoyed the show three years ago so what are some of things that make this show enjoyable? I know for me, it is a different community than the V community out there, there are a lot of overlaps, a lot of friendly faces that I know here, but community, diversity, inclusion, super strong here, would love your comment on that and any other takeaways. >> So, someone pointed out to me that I didn't notice and I'm happy I didn't notice it, was that there is a lot of women at this show, and I looked up and I'm like wow, the lines for men's bathroom aren't as long. And that's a nice thing because I don't think it's just facilities. It is a massively diverse show, not just from a ethnicity and gender perspective, but from career levels and age groups. There's Millennials all the way up to Boomers, and the conversations, the conversations that I've had, I'm really surprised with. Straight on business conversations, to deep and dirty, you know what these are the Cloud providers Azure provides for Kubernetes. That's super geeky, and that conversation's all around best. Infrastructure, application, business, and then even social, I had that social conversation about diversity, and for a change, I wasn't the one that brought up the conversation. >> You know, that's a really good point, and even just even here, I mean, I know you made the schedule, which I salute you, because we are having many more women, many more people of color on our stage, which is reflective of who's here. >> And it's easier at this show than it is at most, as opposed to please find me some more underrepresented or diversity there. And luckily, there is a lot of options at a show like this. >> Yeah, the pool just hasn't, and other shows, the pool just isn't very big. Normally, I can usually say at a show, I'm the tall black guy with the beard, and hey, I'm the tall black guy with the beard, and this show is not that case. >> No, there's more, there's more, exactly. >> Well, Keith Townsend, thank you so much for coming on, a pleasure having you. >> Thank you, Rebecca. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman and Keith Townsend, you are watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier host here in Palo Alto, California. theCUBE's second year covering International Women's Day. It's been a great celebration of all the smart leaders in the world who are making a difference from all kinds of backgrounds, from technology to business and everything in between. Today we've got a great guest, Dominique Bastos, who's the senior Vice President of Cloud at Persistent Systems, formerly with AWS. That's where we first met at re:Invent. Dominique, great to have you on the program here for International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John, for having me back on theCUBE. This is an honor, especially given the theme. >> Well, I'm excited to have you on, I consider you one of those typecast personas where you've kind of done a lot of things. You're powerful, you've got great business acumen you're technical, and we're in a world where, you know the world's coming completely digital and 50% of the world is women, 51%, some say. So you got mostly male dominated industry and you have a dual engineering background and that's super impressive as well. Again, technical world, male dominated you're in there in the mix. What inspires you to get these engineering degrees? >> I think even it was more so shifted towards males. When I had the inspiration to go to engineering school I was accused as a young girl of being a tomboy and fiddling around with all my brother's toys versus focusing on my dolls and other kind of stereotypical toys that you would give a girl. I really had a curiosity for building, a curiosity for just breaking things apart and putting them back together. I was very lucky in that my I guess you call it primary school, maybe middle school, had a program for, it was like electronics, that was the class electronics. So building circuit boards and things like that. And I really enjoyed that aspect of building. I think it was more actually going into engineering school. Picking that as a discipline was a little bit, my mom's reaction to when I announced that I wanted to do engineering which was, "No, that's for boys." >> Really. >> And that really, you know, I think she, it came from a good place in trying to protect me from what she has experienced herself in terms of how women are received in those spaces. So I kind of shrugged it off and thought "Okay, well I'm definitely now going to do this." >> (laughs) If I was told not to, you're going to do it. >> I was told not to, that's all I needed to hear. And also, I think my passion was to design cars and I figured if I enroll in an industrial engineering program I could focus on ergonomic design and ultimately, you know have a career doing something that I'm passionate about. So yeah, so my inspiration was kind of a little bit of don't do this, a lot of curiosity. I'm also a very analytical person. I've been, and I don't know what the science is around left right brain to be honest, but been told that I'm a very much a logical person versus a feeler. So I don't know if that's good or bad. >> Straight shooter. What were your engineering degrees if you don't mind sharing? >> So I did industrial engineering and so I did a dual degree, industrial engineering and robotics. At the time it was like a manufacturing robotics program. It was very, very cool because we got to, I mean now looking back, the evolution of robotics is just insane. But you, you know, programmed a robotic arm to pick things up. I actually crashed the Civil Engineering School's Concrete Canoe Building Competition where you literally have to design a concrete canoe and do all the load testing and the strength testing of the materials and basically then, you know you go against other universities to race the canoe in a body of water. We did that at, in Alabama and in Georgia. So I was lucky to experience that two times. It was a lot of fun. >> But you knew, so you knew, deep down, you were technical you had a nerd vibe you were geeking out on math, tech, robotics. What happened next? I mean, what were some of the challenges you faced? How did you progress forward? Did you have any blockers and roadblocks in front of you and how did you handle those? >> Yeah, I mean I had, I had a very eye-opening experience with, in my freshman year of engineering school. I kind of went in gung-ho with zero hesitation, all the confidence in the world, 'cause I was always a very big nerd academically, I hate admitting this but myself and somebody else got most intellectual, voted by the students in high school. It's like, you don't want to be voted most intellectual when you're in high school. >> Now it's a big deal. (laughs) >> Yeah, you want to be voted like popular or anything like that? No, I was a nerd, but in engineering school, it's a, it was very humbling. That whole confidence that I had. I experienced prof, ooh, I don't want to name the school. Everybody can google it though, but, so anyway so I had experience with some professors that actually looked at me and said, "You're in the wrong program. This is difficult." I, and I think I've shared this before in other forums where, you know, my thermodynamic teacher basically told me "Cheerleading's down the hall," and it it was a very shocking thing to hear because it really made me wonder like, what am I up against here? Is this what it's going to be like going forward? And I decided not to pay attention to that. I think at the moment when you hear something like that you just, you absorb it and you also don't know how to react. And I decided immediately to just walk right past him and sit down front center in the class. In my head I was cursing him, of course, 'cause I mean, let's be real. And I was like, I'm going to show this bleep bleep. And proceeded to basically set the curve class crushed it and was back to be the teacher's assistant. So I think that was one. >> But you became his teacher assistant after, or another one? >> Yeah, I gave him a mini speech. I said, do not do this. You, you could, you could have broken me and if you would've done this to somebody who wasn't as steadfast in her goals or whatever, I was really focused like I'm doing this, I would've backed out potentially and said, you know this isn't something I want to experience on the daily. So I think that was actually a good experience because it gave me an opportunity to understand what I was up against but also double down in how I was going to deal with it. >> Nice to slay the misogynistic teachers who typecast people. Now you had a very technical career but also you had a great career at AWS on the business side you've handled 'em all of the big accounts, I won't say the names, but like we're talking about monster accounts, sales and now basically it's not really selling, you're managing a big account, it's like a big business. It's a business development thing. Technical to business transition, how do you handle that? Was that something you were natural for? Obviously you, you stared down the naysayers out of the gate in college and then in business, did that continue and how did you drive through that? >> So I think even when I was coming out of university I knew that I wanted to have a balance between the engineering program and business. A lot of my colleagues went on to do their PEs so continue to get their masters basically in engineering or their PhDs in engineering. I didn't really have an interest for that. I did international business and finance as my MBA because I wanted to explore the ability of taking what I had learned in engineering school and applying it to building businesses. I mean, at the time I didn't have it in my head that I would want to do startups but I definitely knew that I wanted to get a feel for what are they learning in business school that I missed out in engineering school. So I think that helped me when I transitioned, well when I applied, I was asked to come apply at AWS and I kind of went, no I'm going to, the DNA is going to be rejected. >> You thought, you thought you'd be rejected from AWS. >> I thought I'd be, yeah, because I have very much a startup founder kind of disruptive personality. And to me, when I first saw AWS at the stage early 2016 I saw it as a corporation. Even though from a techie standpoint, I was like, these people are insane. This is amazing what they're building. But I didn't know what the cultural vibe would feel like. I had been with GE at the beginning of my career for almost three years. So I kind of equated AWS Amazon to GE given the size because in between, I had done startups. So when I went to AWS I think initially, and I do have to kind of shout out, you know Todd Weatherby basically was the worldwide leader for ProServe and it was being built, he built it and I went into ProServe to help from that standpoint. >> John: ProServe, Professional services >> Professional services, right. To help these big enterprise customers. And specifically my first customer was an amazing experience in taking, basically the company revolves around strategic selling, right? It's not like you take a salesperson with a conventional schooling that salespeople would have and plug them into AWS in 2016. It was very much a consultative strategic approach. And for me, having a technical background and loving to solve problems for customers, working with the team, I would say, it was a dream team that I joined. And also the ability to come to the table with a technical background, knowing how to interact with senior executives to help them envision where they want to go, and then to bring a team along with you to make that happen. I mean, that was like magical for me. I loved that experience. >> So you like the culture, I mean, Andy Jassy, I've interviewed many times, always talked about builders and been a builder mentality. You mentioned that earlier at the top of this interview you've always building things, curious and you mentioned potentially your confidence might have been shaken. So you, you had the confidence. So being a builder, you know, being curious and having confidence seems to be what your superpower is. A lot of people talk about the confidence angle. How important is that and how important is that for encouraging more women to get into tech? Because I still hear that all the time. Not that they don't have confidence, but there's so many signals that potentially could shake confidence in industry >> Yeah, that's actually a really good point that you're making. A lot of signals that women get could shake their confidence and that needs to be, I mean, it's easy to say that it should be innate. I mean that's kind of like textbook, "Oh it has to come from within." Of course it does. But also, you know, we need to understand that in a population where 50% of the population is women but only 7% of the positions in tech, and I don't know the most current number in tech leadership, is women, and probably a smaller percentage in the C-suite. When you're looking at a woman who's wanting to go up the trajectory in a tech company and then there's a subconscious understanding that there's a limit to how far you'll go, your confidence, you know, in even subconsciously gets shaken a little bit because despite your best efforts, you're already seeing the cap. I would say that we need to coach girls to speak confidently to navigate conflict versus running away from it, to own your own success and be secure in what you bring to the table. And then I think a very important thing is to celebrate each other and the wins that we see for women in tech, in the industry. >> That's awesome. What's, the, in your opinion, the, you look at that, the challenges for this next generation women, and women in general, what are some of the challenges for them and that they need to overcome today? I mean, obviously the world's changed for the better. Still not there. I mean the numbers one in four women, Rachel Thornton came on, former CMO of AWS, she's at MessageBird now. They had a study where only one in four women go to the executive board level. And so there's still, still numbers are bad and then the numbers still got to get up, up big time. That's, and the industry's working on that, but it's changed. But today, what are some of the challenges for this current generation and the next generation of women and how can we and the industry meet, we being us, women in the industry, be strong role models for them? >> Well, I think the challenge is one of how many women are there in the pipeline and what are we doing to retain them and how are we offering up the opportunities to fill. As you know, as Rachel said and I haven't had an opportunity to see her, in how are we giving them this opportunity to take up those seats in the C-suite right, in these leadership roles. And I think this is a little bit exacerbated with the pandemic in that, you know when everything shut down when people were going back to deal with family and work at the same time, for better or for worse the brunt of it fell on probably, you know the maternal type caregiver within the family unit. You know, I've been, I raised my daughter alone and for me, even without the pandemic it was a struggle constantly to balance the risk that I was willing to take to show up for those positions versus investing even more of that time raising a child, right? Nevermind the unconscious bias or cultural kind of expectations that you get from the male counterparts where there's zero understanding of what a mom might go through at home to then show up to a meeting, you know fully fresh and ready to kind of spit out some wisdom. It's like, you know, your kid just freaking lost their whatever and you know, they, so you have to sort a bunch of things out. I think the challenge that women are still facing and will we have to keep working at it is making sure that there's a good pipeline. A good amount of young ladies of people taking interest in tech. And then as they're, you know, going through the funnel at stages in their career, we're providing the mentoring we're, there's representation, right? To what they're aspiring to. We're celebrating their interest in the field, right? And, and I think also we're doing things to retain them, because again, the pandemic affected everybody. I think women specifically and I don't know the statistics but I was reading something about this were the ones to tend to kind of pull it back and say well now I need to be home with, you know you name how many kids and pets and the aging parents, people that got sick to take on that position. In addition to the career aspirations that they might have. We need to make it easier basically. >> I think that's a great call out and I appreciate you bringing that up about family and being a single mom. And by the way, you're savage warrior to doing that. It's amazing. You got to, I know you have a daughter in computer science at Stanford, I want to get to that in a second. But that empathy and I mentioned Rachel Thornton, who's the CMO MessageBird and former CMO of AWS. Her thing right now to your point is mentoring and sponsorship is very key. And her company and the video that's on the site here people should look at that and reference that. They talk a lot about that empathy of people's situation whether it's a single mom, family life, men and women but mainly women because they're the ones who people aren't having a lot of empathy for in that situation, as you called it out. This is huge. And I think remote work has opened up this whole aperture of everyone has to have a view into how people are coming to the table at work. So, you know, props are bringing that up, and I recommend everyone look at check out Rachel Thornton. So how do you balance that, that home life and talk about your daughter's journey because sounds like she's nerding out at Stanford 'cause you know Stanford's called Nerd Nation, that's their motto, so you must be proud. >> I am so proud, I'm so proud. And I will say, I have to admit, because I did encounter so many obstacles and so many hurdles in my journey, it's almost like I forgot that I should set that aside and not worry about my daughter. My hope for her was for her to kind of be artistic and a painter or go into something more lighthearted and fun because I just wanted to think, I guess my mom had the same idea, right? She, always been very driven. She, I want to say that I got very lucky that she picked me to be her mom. Biologically I'm her mom, but I told her she was like a little star that fell from the sky and I, and ended up with me. I think for me, balancing being a single mom and a career where I'm leading and mentoring and making big decisions that affect people's lives as well. You have to take the best of everything you get from each of those roles. And I think that the best way is play to your strengths, right? So having been kind of a nerd and very organized person and all about, you know, systems for effectiveness, I mean, industrial engineering, parenting for me was, I'm going to make it sound super annoying and horrible, but (laughs) >> It's funny, you know, Dave Vellante and I when we started SiliconANGLE and theCUBE years ago, one of the things we were all like sports lovers. So we liked sports and we are like we looked at the people in tech as tech athletes and except there's no men and women teams, it's one team. It's all one thing. So, you know, I consider you a tech athlete you're hard charging strong and professional and smart and beautiful and brilliant, all those good things. >> Thank you. >> Now this game is changing and okay, and you've done startups, and you've done corporate jobs, now you're in a new role. What's the current tech landscape from a, you know I won't say athletic per standpoint but as people who are smart. You have all kinds of different skill sets. You have the startup warriors, you have the folks who like to be in the middle of the corporate world grow up through corporate, climb the corporate ladder. You have investors, you have, you know, creatives. What have you enjoyed most and where do you see all the action? >> I mean, I think what I've enjoyed the most has been being able to bring all of the things that I feel I'm strong at and bring it together to apply that to whatever the problem is at hand, right? So kind of like, you know if you look at a renaissance man who can kind of pop in anywhere and, oh, he's good at, you know sports and he's good at reading and, or she's good at this or, take all of those strengths and somehow bring them together to deal with the issue at hand, versus breaking up your mindset into this is textbook what I learned and this is how business should be done and I'm going to draw these hard lines between personal life and work life, or between how you do selling and how you do engineering. So I think my, the thing that I loved, really loved about AWS was a lot of leaders saw something in me that I potentially didn't see, which was, yeah you might be great at running that big account but we need help over here doing go to market for a new product launch and boom, there you go. Now I'm in a different org helping solve that problem and getting something launched. And I think if you don't box yourself in to I'm only good at this, or, you know put a label on yourself as being the rockstar in that. It leaves room for opportunities to present themselves but also it leaves room within your own mind to see yourself as somebody capable of doing anything. Right, I don't know if I answered the question accurately. >> No, that's good, no, that's awesome. I love the sharing, Yeah, great, great share there. Question is, what do you see, what do you currently during now you're building a business of Persistent for the cloud, obviously AWS and Persistent's a leader global system integrator around the world, thousands and thousands of customers from what we know and been reporting on theCUBE, what's next for you? Where do you see yourself going? Obviously you're going to knock this out of the park. Where do you see yourself as you kind of look at the continuing journey of your mission, personal, professional what's on your mind? Where do you see yourself going next? >> Well, I think, you know, again, going back to not boxing yourself in. This role is an amazing one where I have an opportunity to take all the pieces of my career in tech and apply them to building a business within a business. And that involves all the goodness of coaching and mentoring and strategizing. And I'm loving it. I'm loving the opportunity to work with such great leaders. Persistent itself is very, very good at providing opportunities, very diverse opportunities. We just had a huge Semicolon; Hackathon. Some of the winners were females. The turnout was amazing in the CTO's office. We have very strong women leading the charge for innovation. I think to answer your question about the future and where I may see myself going next, I think now that my job, well they say the job is never done. But now that Chloe's kind of settled into Stanford and kind of doing her own thing, I have always had a passion to continue leading in a way that brings me to, into the fold a lot more. So maybe, you know, maybe in a VC firm partner mode or another, you know CEO role in a startup, or my own startup. I mean, I never, I don't know right now I'm super happy but you never know, you know where your drive might go. And I also want to be able to very deliberately be in a role where I can continue to mentor and support up and coming women in tech. >> Well, you got the smarts but you got really the building mentality, the curiosity and the confidence really sets you up nicely. Dominique great story, great inspiration. You're a role model for many women, young girls out there and women in tech and in celebration. It's a great day and thank you for sharing that story and all the good nuggets there. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and it's been my pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto getting all the content, check out the other interviews some amazing stories, lessons learned, and some, you know some funny stories and some serious stories. So have some fun and enjoy the rest of the videos here for International Women's Days, thanks for watching. (gentle inspirational music)

(light airy music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, AI and machine learning. "Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS." This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about AI machine learning. We have three great guests Bratin Saha, VP, Vice President of Machine Learning and AI Services at Amazon Web Services. Tom Mason, the CTO of Stability AI, and Aidan Gomez, CEO and co-founder of Cohere. Two practitioners doing startups and AWS. Gentlemen, thank you for opening up this session, this episode. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So the topic is hype versus reality. So I think we're all on the reality is great, hype is great, but the reality's here. I want to get into it. Generative AI's got all the momentum, it's going mainstream, it's kind of come out of the behind the ropes, it's now mainstream. We saw the success of ChatGPT, opens up everyone's eyes, but there's so much more going on. Let's jump in and get your early perspectives on what should people be talking about right now? What are you guys working on? We'll start with AWS. What's the big focus right now for you guys as you come into this market that's highly active, highly hyped up, but people see value right out of the gate? >> You know, we have been working on generative AI for some time. In fact, last year we released Code Whisperer, which is about using generative AI for software development and a number of customers are using it and getting real value out of it. So generative AI is now something that's mainstream that can be used by enterprise users. And we have also been partnering with a number of other companies. So, you know, stability.ai, we've been partnering with them a lot. We want to be partnering with other companies as well. In seeing how we do three things, you know, first is providing the most efficient infrastructure for generative AI. And that is where, you know, things like Trainium, things like Inferentia, things like SageMaker come in. And then next is the set of models and then the third is the kind of applications like Code Whisperer and so on. So, you know, it's early days yet, but clearly there's a lot of amazing capabilities that will come out and something that, you know, our customers are starting to pay a lot of attention to. >> Tom, talk about your company and what your focus is and why the Amazon Web Services relationship's important for you? >> So yeah, we're primarily committed to making incredible open source foundation models and obviously stable effusions been our kind of first big model there, which we trained all on AWS. We've been working with them over the last year and a half to develop, obviously a big cluster, and bring all that compute to training these models at scale, which has been a really successful partnership. And we're excited to take it further this year as we develop commercial strategy of the business and build out, you know, the ability for enterprise customers to come and get all the value from these models that we think they can get. So we're really excited about the future. We got hugely exciting pipeline for this year with new modalities and video models and wonderful things and trying to solve images for once and for all and get the kind of general value and value proposition correct for customers. So it's a really exciting time and very honored to be part of it. >> It's great to see some of your customers doing so well out there. Congratulations to your team. Appreciate that. Aidan, let's get into what you guys do. What does Cohere do? What are you excited about right now? >> Yeah, so Cohere builds large language models, which are the backbone of applications like ChatGPT and GPT-3. We're extremely focused on solving the issues with adoption for enterprise. So it's great that you can make a super flashy demo for consumers, but it takes a lot to actually get it into billion user products and large global enterprises. So about six months ago, we released our command models, which are some of the best that exist for large language models. And in December, we released our multilingual text understanding models and that's on over a hundred different languages and it's trained on, you know, authentic data directly from native speakers. And so we're super excited to continue pushing this into enterprise and solving those barriers for adoption, making this transformation a reality. >> Just real quick, while I got you there on the new products coming out. Where are we in the progress? People see some of the new stuff out there right now. There's so much more headroom. Can you just scope out in your mind what that looks like? Like from a headroom standpoint? Okay, we see ChatGPT. "Oh yeah, it writes my papers for me, does some homework for me." I mean okay, yawn, maybe people say that, (Aidan chuckles) people excited or people are blown away. I mean, it's helped theCUBE out, it helps me, you know, feed up a little bit from my write-ups but it's not always perfect. >> Yeah, at the moment it's like a writing assistant, right? And it's still super early in the technologies trajectory. I think it's fascinating and it's interesting but its impact is still really limited. I think in the next year, like within the next eight months, we're going to see some major changes. You've already seen the very first hints of that with stuff like Bing Chat, where you augment these dialogue models with an external knowledge base. So now the models can be kept up to date to the millisecond, right? Because they can search the web and they can see events that happened a millisecond ago. But that's still limited in the sense that when you ask the question, what can these models actually do? Well they can just write text back at you. That's the extent of what they can do. And so the real project, the real effort, that I think we're all working towards is actually taking action. So what happens when you give these models the ability to use tools, to use APIs? What can they do when they can actually affect change out in the real world, beyond just streaming text back at the user? I think that's the really exciting piece. >> Okay, so I wanted to tee that up early in the segment 'cause I want to get into the customer applications. We're seeing early adopters come in, using the technology because they have a lot of data, they have a lot of large language model opportunities and then there's a big fast follower wave coming behind it. I call that the people who are going to jump in the pool early and get into it. They might not be advanced. Can you guys share what customer applications are being used with large language and vision models today and how they're using it to transform on the early adopter side, and how is that a tell sign of what's to come? >> You know, one of the things we have been seeing both with the text models that Aidan talked about as well as the vision models that stability.ai does, Tom, is customers are really using it to change the way you interact with information. You know, one example of a customer that we have, is someone who's kind of using that to query customer conversations and ask questions like, you know, "What was the customer issue? How did we solve it?" And trying to get those kinds of insights that was previously much harder to do. And then of course software is a big area. You know, generating software, making that, you know, just deploying it in production. Those have been really big areas that we have seen customers start to do. You know, looking at documentation, like instead of you know, searching for stuff and so on, you know, you just have an interactive way, in which you can just look at the documentation for a product. You know, all of this goes to where we need to take the technology. One of which is, you know, the models have to be there but they have to work reliably in a production setting at scale, with privacy, with security, and you know, making sure all of this is happening, is going to be really key. That is what, you know, we at AWS are looking to do, which is work with partners like stability and others and in the open source and really take all of these and make them available at scale to customers, where they work reliably. >> Tom, Aidan, what's your thoughts on this? Where are customers landing on this first use cases or set of low-hanging fruit use cases or applications? >> Yeah, so I think like the first group of adopters that really found product market fit were the copywriting companies. So one great example of that is HyperWrite. Another one is Jasper. And so for Cohere, that's the tip of the iceberg, like there's a very long tail of usage from a bunch of different applications. HyperWrite is one of our customers, they help beat writer's block by drafting blog posts, emails, and marketing copy. We also have a global audio streaming platform, which is using us the power of search engine that can comb through podcast transcripts, in a bunch of different languages. Then a global apparel brand, which is using us to transform how they interact with their customers through a virtual assistant, two dozen global news outlets who are using us for news summarization. So really like, these large language models, they can be deployed all over the place into every single industry sector, language is everywhere. It's hard to think of any company on Earth that doesn't use language. So it's, very, very- >> We're doing it right now. We got the language coming in. >> Exactly. >> We'll transcribe this puppy. All right. Tom, on your side, what do you see the- >> Yeah, we're seeing some amazing applications of it and you know, I guess that's partly been, because of the growth in the open source community and some of these applications have come from there that are then triggering this secondary wave of innovation, which is coming a lot from, you know, controllability and explainability of the model. But we've got companies like, you know, Jasper, which Aidan mentioned, who are using stable diffusion for image generation in block creation, content creation. We've got Lensa, you know, which exploded, and is built on top of stable diffusion for fine tuning so people can bring themselves and their pets and you know, everything into the models. So we've now got fine tuned stable diffusion at scale, which is democratized, you know, that process, which is really fun to see your Lensa, you know, exploded. You know, I think it was the largest growing app in the App Store at one point. And lots of other examples like NightCafe and Lexica and Playground. So seeing lots of cool applications. >> So much applications, we'll probably be a customer for all you guys. We'll definitely talk after. But the challenges are there for people adopting, they want to get into what you guys see as the challenges that turn into opportunities. How do you see the customers adopting generative AI applications? For example, we have massive amounts of transcripts, timed up to all the videos. I don't even know what to do. Do I just, do I code my API there. So, everyone has this problem, every vertical has these use cases. What are the challenges for people getting into this and adopting these applications? Is it figuring out what to do first? Or is it a technical setup? Do they stand up stuff, they just go to Amazon? What do you guys see as the challenges? >> I think, you know, the first thing is coming up with where you think you're going to reimagine your customer experience by using generative AI. You know, we talked about Ada, and Tom talked about a number of these ones and you know, you pick up one or two of these, to get that robust. And then once you have them, you know, we have models and we'll have more models on AWS, these large language models that Aidan was talking about. Then you go in and start using these models and testing them out and seeing whether they fit in use case or not. In many situations, like you said, John, our customers want to say, "You know, I know you've trained these models on a lot of publicly available data, but I want to be able to customize it for my use cases. Because, you know, there's some knowledge that I have created and I want to be able to use that." And then in many cases, and I think Aidan mentioned this. You know, you need these models to be up to date. Like you can't have it staying. And in those cases, you augmented with a knowledge base, you know you have to make sure that these models are not hallucinating. And so you need to be able to do the right kind of responsible AI checks. So, you know, you start with a particular use case, and there are a lot of them. Then, you know, you can come to AWS, and then look at one of the many models we have and you know, we are going to have more models for other modalities as well. And then, you know, play around with the models. We have a playground kind of thing where you can test these models on some data and then you can probably, you will probably want to bring your own data, customize it to your own needs, do some of the testing to make sure that the model is giving the right output and then just deploy it. And you know, we have a lot of tools. >> Yeah. >> To make this easy for our customers. >> How should people think about large language models? Because do they think about it as something that they tap into with their IP or their data? Or is it a large language model that they apply into their system? Is the interface that way? What's the interaction look like? >> In many situations, you can use these models out of the box. But in typical, in most of the other situations, you will want to customize it with your own data or with your own expectations. So the typical use case would be, you know, these are models are exposed through APIs. So the typical use case would be, you know you're using these APIs a little bit for testing and getting familiar and then there will be an API that will allow you to train this model further on your data. So you use that AI, you know, make sure you augmented the knowledge base. So then you use those APIs to customize the model and then just deploy it in an application. You know, like Tom was mentioning, a number of companies that are using these models. So once you have it, then you know, you again, use an endpoint API and use it in an application. >> All right, I love the example. I want to ask Tom and Aidan, because like most my experience with Amazon Web Service in 2007, I would stand up in EC2, put my code on there, play around, if it didn't work out, I'd shut it down. Is that a similar dynamic we're going to see with the machine learning where developers just kind of log in and stand up infrastructure and play around and then have a cloud-like experience? >> So I can go first. So I mean, we obviously, with AWS working really closely with the SageMaker team, do fantastic platform there for ML training and inference. And you know, going back to your point earlier, you know, where the data is, is hugely important for companies. Many companies bringing their models to their data in AWS on-premise for them is hugely important. Having the models to be, you know, open sources, makes them explainable and transparent to the adopters of those models. So, you know, we are really excited to work with the SageMaker team over the coming year to bring companies to that platform and make the most of our models. >> Aidan, what's your take on developers? Do they just need to have a team in place, if we want to interface with you guys? Let's say, can they start learning? What do they got to do to set up? >> Yeah, so I think for Cohere, our product makes it much, much easier to people, for people to get started and start building, it solves a lot of the productionization problems. But of course with SageMaker, like Tom was saying, I think that lowers a barrier even further because it solves problems like data privacy. So I want to underline what Bratin was saying earlier around when you're fine tuning or when you're using these models, you don't want your data being incorporated into someone else's model. You don't want it being used for training elsewhere. And so the ability to solve for enterprises, that data privacy and that security guarantee has been hugely important for Cohere, and that's very easy to do through SageMaker. >> Yeah. >> But the barriers for using this technology are coming down super quickly. And so for developers, it's just becoming completely intuitive. I love this, there's this quote from Andrej Karpathy. He was saying like, "It really wasn't on my 2022 list of things to happen that English would become, you know, the most popular programming language." And so the barrier is coming down- >> Yeah. >> Super quickly and it's exciting to see. >> It's going to be awesome for all the companies here, and then we'll do more, we're probably going to see explosion of startups, already seeing that, the maps, ecosystem maps, the landscape maps are happening. So this is happening and I'm convinced it's not yesterday's chat bot, it's not yesterday's AI Ops. It's a whole another ballgame. So I have to ask you guys for the final question before we kick off the company's showcasing here. How do you guys gauge success of generative AI applications? Is there a lens to look through and say, okay, how do I see success? It could be just getting a win or is it a bigger picture? Bratin we'll start with you. How do you gauge success for generative AI? >> You know, ultimately it's about bringing business value to our customers. And making sure that those customers are able to reimagine their experiences by using generative AI. Now the way to get their ease, of course to deploy those models in a safe, effective manner, and ensuring that all of the robustness and the security guarantees and the privacy guarantees are all there. And we want to make sure that this transitions from something that's great demos to actual at scale products, which means making them work reliably all of the time not just some of the time. >> Tom, what's your gauge for success? >> Look, I think this, we're seeing a completely new form of ways to interact with data, to make data intelligent, and directly to bring in new revenue streams into business. So if businesses can use our models to leverage that and generate completely new revenue streams and ultimately bring incredible new value to their customers, then that's fantastic. And we hope we can power that revolution. >> Aidan, what's your take? >> Yeah, reiterating Bratin and Tom's point, I think that value in the enterprise and value in market is like a huge, you know, it's the goal that we're striving towards. I also think that, you know, the value to consumers and actual users and the transformation of the surface area of technology to create experiences like ChatGPT that are magical and it's the first time in human history we've been able to talk to something compelling that's not a human. I think that in itself is just extraordinary and so exciting to see. >> It really brings up a whole another category of markets. B2B, B2C, it's B2D, business to developer. Because I think this is kind of the big trend the consumers have to win. The developers coding the apps, it's a whole another sea change. Reminds me everyone use the "Moneyball" movie as example during the big data wave. Then you know, the value of data. There's a scene in "Moneyball" at the end, where Billy Beane's getting the offer from the Red Sox, then the owner says to the Red Sox, "If every team's not rebuilding their teams based upon your model, there'll be dinosaurs." I think that's the same with AI here. Every company will have to need to think about their business model and how they operate with AI. So it'll be a great run. >> Completely Agree >> It'll be a great run. >> Yeah. >> Aidan, Tom, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences at your companies and congratulations on your success and it's just the beginning. And Bratin, thanks for coming on representing AWS. And thank you, appreciate for what you do. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, Aidan. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, let's kick off season three, episode one. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (light airy music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Women in Data Science 2023 live from Stanford University. This is Lisa Martin. My co-host is Tracy Yuan. We're excited to be having great conversations all day but you know, 'cause you've been watching. We've been interviewing some very inspiring women and some men as well, talking about all of the amazing applications of data science. You're not going to want to miss this next conversation. Our guest is Gabriela de Queiroz, Principal Cloud Advocate Manager of Microsoft. Welcome, Gabriela. We're excited to have you. >> Thank you very much. I'm so excited to be talking to you. >> Yeah, you're on theCUBE. >> Yeah, finally. (Lisa laughing) Like a dream come true. (laughs) >> I know and we love that. We're so thrilled to have you. So you have a ton of experience in the data space. I was doing some research on you. You've worked in software, financial advertisement, health. Talk to us a little bit about you. What's your background in? >> So I was trained in statistics. So I'm a statistician and then I worked in epidemiology. I worked with air pollution and public health. So I was a researcher before moving into the industry. So as I was talking today, the weekly paths, it's exactly who I am. I went back and forth and back and forth and stopped and tried something else until I figured out that I want to do data science and that I want to do different things because with data science we can... The beauty of data science is that you can move across domains. So I worked in healthcare, financial, and then different technology companies. >> Well the nice thing, one of the exciting things that data science, that I geek out about and Tracy knows 'cause we've been talking about this all day, it's just all the different, to your point, diverse, pun intended, applications of data science. You know, this morning we were talking about, we had the VP of data science from Meta as a keynote. She came to theCUBE talking and really kind of explaining from a content perspective, from a monetization perspective, and of course so many people in the world are users of Facebook. It makes it tangible. But we also heard today conversations about the applications of data science in police violence, in climate change. We're in California, we're expecting a massive rainstorm and we don't know what to do when it rains or snows. But climate change is real. Everyone's talking about it, and there's data science at its foundation. That's one of the things that I love. But you also have a lot of experience building diverse teams. Talk a little bit about that. You've created some very sophisticated data science solutions. Talk about your recommendation to others to build diverse teams. What's in it for them? And maybe share some data science project or two that you really found inspirational. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I do love building teams. Every time I'm given the task of building teams, I feel the luckiest person in the world because you have the option to pick like different backgrounds and all the diverse set of like people that you can find. I don't think it's easy, like people say, yeah, it's very hard. You have to be intentional. You have to go from the very first part when you are writing the job description through the interview process. So you have to be very intentional in every step. And you have to think through when you are doing that. And I love, like my last team, we had like 10 people and we were so diverse. Like just talking about languages. We had like 15 languages inside a team. So how beautiful it is. Like all different backgrounds, like myself as a statistician, but we had people from engineering background, biology, languages, and so on. So it's, yeah, like every time thinking about building a team, if you wanted your team to be diverse, you need to be intentional. >> I'm so glad you brought up that intention point because that is the fundamental requirement really is to build it with intention. >> Exactly, and I love to hear like how there's different languages. So like I'm assuming, or like different backgrounds, I'm assuming everybody just zig zags their way into the team and now you're all women in data science and I think that's so precious. >> Exactly. And not only woman, right. >> Tracy: Not only woman, you're right. >> The team was diverse not only in terms of like gender, but like background, ethnicity, and spoken languages, and language that they use to program and backgrounds. Like as I mentioned, not everybody did the statistics in school or computer science. And it was like one of my best teams was when we had this combination also like things that I'm good at the other person is not as good and we have this knowledge sharing all the time. Every day I would feel like I'm learning something. In a small talk or if I was reviewing something, there was always something new because of like the richness of the diverse set of people that were in your team. >> Well what you've done is so impressive, because not only have you been intentional with it, but you sound like the hallmark of a great leader of someone who hires and builds teams to fill gaps. They don't have to know less than I do for me to be the leader. They have to have different skills, different areas of expertise. That is really, honestly Gabriela, that's the hallmark of a great leader. And that's not easy to come by. So tell me, who were some of your mentors and sponsors along the way that maybe influenced you in that direction? Or is that just who you are? >> That's a great question. And I joke that I want to be the role model that I never had, right. So growing up, I didn't have anyone that I could see other than my mom probably or my sister. But there was no one that I could see, I want to become that person one day. And once I was tracing my path, I started to see people looking at me and like, you inspire me so much, and I'm like, oh wow, this is amazing and I want to do do this over and over and over again. So I want to be that person to inspire others. And no matter, like I'll be like a VP, CEO, whoever, you know, I want to be, I want to keep inspiring people because that's so valuable. >> Lisa: Oh, that's huge. >> And I feel like when we grow professionally and then go to the next level, we sometimes we lose that, you know, thing that's essential. And I think also like, it's part of who I am as I was building and all my experiences as I was going through, I became what I mentioned is unique person that I think we all are unique somehow. >> You're a rockstar. Isn't she a rockstar? >> You dropping quotes out. >> I'm loving this. I'm like, I've inspired Gabriela. (Gabriela laughing) >> Oh my God. But yeah, 'cause we were asking our other guests about the same question, like, who are your role models? And then we're talking about how like it's very important for women to see that there is a representation, that there is someone they look up to and they want to be. And so that like, it motivates them to stay in this field and to start in this field to begin with. So yeah, I think like you are definitely filling a void and for all these women who dream to be in data science. And I think that's just amazing. >> And you're a founder too. In 2012, you founded R Ladies. Talk a little bit about that. This is present in more than 200 cities in 55 plus countries. Talk about R Ladies and maybe the catalyst to launch it. >> Yes, so you always start, so I'm from Brazil, I always talk about this because it's such, again, I grew up over there. So I was there my whole life and then I moved to here, Silicon Valley. And when I moved to San Francisco, like the doors opened. So many things happening in the city. That was back in 2012. Data science was exploding. And I found out something about Meetup.com, it's a website that you can join and go in all these events. And I was going to this event and I joke that it was kind of like going to the Disneyland, where you don't know if I should go that direction or the other direction. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And I was like, should I go and learn about data visualization? Should I go and learn about SQL or should I go and learn about Hadoop, right? So I would go every day to those meetups. And I was a student back then, so you know, the budget was very restricted as a student. So we don't have much to spend. And then they would serve dinner and you would learn for free. And then I got to a point where I was like, hey, they are doing all of this as a volunteer. Like they are running this meetup and events for free. And I felt like it's a cycle. I need to do something, right. I'm taking all this in. I'm having this huge opportunity to be here. I want to give back. So that's what how everything started. I was like, no, I have to think about something. I need to think about something that I can give back. And I was using R back then and I'm like how about I do something with R. I love R, I'm so passionate about R, what about if I create a community around R but not a regular community, because by going to this events, I felt that as a Latina and as a woman, I was always in the corner and I was not being able to participate and to, you know, be myself and to network and ask questions. I would be in the corner. So I said to myself, what about if I do something where everybody feel included, where everybody can participate, can share, can ask questions without judgment? So that's how R ladies all came together. >> That's awesome. >> Talk about intentions, like you have to, you had that go in mind, but yeah, I wanted to dive a little bit into R. So could you please talk more about where did the passion for R come from, and like how did the special connection between you and R the language, like born, how did that come from? >> It was not a love at first sight. >> No. >> Not at all. Not at all. Because that was back in Brazil. So all the documentation were in English, all the tutorials, only two. We had like very few tutorials. It was not like nowadays that we have so many tutorials and courses. There were like two tutorials, other documentation in English. So it's was hard for me like as someone that didn't know much English to go through the language and then to learn to program was not easy task. But then as I was going through the language and learning and reading books and finding the people behind the language, I don't know how I felt in love. And then when I came to to San Francisco, I saw some of like the main contributors who are speaking in person and I'm like, wow, they are like humans. I don't know, it was like, I have no idea why I had this love. But I think the the people and then the community was the thing that kept me with the R language. >> Yeah, the community factors is so important. And it's so, at WIDS it's so palpable. I mean I literally walk in the door, every WIDS I've done, I think I've been doing them for theCUBE since 2017. theCUBE has been here since the beginning in 2015 with our co-founders. But you walk in, you get this sense of belonging. And this sense of I can do anything, why not? Why not me? Look at her up there, and now look at you speaking in the technical talk today on theCUBE. So inspiring. One of the things that I always think is you can't be what you can't see. We need to be able to see more people that look like you and sound like you and like me and like you as well. And WIDS gives us that opportunity, which is fantastic, but it's also helping to move the needle, really. And I was looking at some of the Anitab.org stats just yesterday about 2022. And they're showing, you know, the percentage of females in technical roles has been hovering around 25% for a while. It's a little higher now. I think it's 27.6 according to any to Anitab. We're seeing more women hired in roles. But what are the challenges, and I would love to get your advice on this, for those that might be in this situation is attrition, women who are leaving roles. What would your advice be to a woman who might be trying to navigate family and work and career ladder to stay in that role and keep pushing forward? >> I'll go back to the community. If you don't have a community around you, it's so hard to navigate. >> That's a great point. >> You are lonely. There is no one that you can bounce ideas off, that you can share what you are feeling or like that you can learn as well. So sometimes you feel like you are the only person that is going through that problem or like, you maybe have a family or you are planning to have a family and you have to make a decision. But you've never seen anyone going through this. So when you have a community, you see people like you, right. So that's where we were saying about having different people and people like you so they can share as well. And you feel like, oh yeah, so they went through this, they succeed. I can also go through this and succeed. So I think the attrition problem is still big problem. And I'm sure will be worse now with everything that is happening in Tech with layoffs. >> Yes and the great resignation. >> Yeah. >> We are going back, you know, a few steps, like a lot of like advancements that we did. I feel like we are going back unfortunately, but I always tell this, make sure that you have a community. Make sure that you have a mentor. Make sure that you have someone or some people, not only one mentor, different mentors, that can support you through this trajectory. Because it's not easy. But there are a lot of us out there. >> There really are. And that's a great point. I love everything about the community. It's all about that network effect and feeling like you belong- >> That's all WIDS is about. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Like coming over here, it's like seeing the old friends again. It's like I'm so glad that I'm coming because I'm all my old friends that I only see like maybe once a year. >> Tracy: Reunion. >> Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that our tank get, you know- >> Lisa: Replenished. >> Exactly. For the rest of the year. >> Yes. >> Oh, that's precious. >> I love that. >> I agree with that. I think one of the things that when I say, you know, you can't see, I think, well, how many females in technology would I be able to recognize? And of course you can be female technology working in the healthcare sector or working in finance or manufacturing, but, you know, we need to be able to have more that we can see and identify. And one of the things that I recently found out, I was telling Tracy this earlier that I geeked out about was finding out that the CTO of Open AI, ChatGPT, is a female. I'm like, (gasps) why aren't we talking about this more? She was profiled on Fast Company. I've seen a few pieces on her, Mira Murati. But we're hearing so much about ChatJTP being... ChatGPT, I always get that wrong, about being like, likening it to the launch of the iPhone, which revolutionized mobile and connectivity. And here we have a female in the technical role. Let's put her on a pedestal because that is hugely inspiring. >> Exactly, like let's bring everybody to the front. >> Yes. >> Right. >> And let's have them talk to us because like, you didn't know. I didn't know probably about this, right. You didn't know. Like, we don't know about this. It's kind of like we are hidden. We need to give them the spotlight. Every woman to give the spotlight, so they can keep aspiring the new generation. >> Or Susan Wojcicki who ran, how long does she run YouTube? All the YouTube influencers that probably have no idea who are influential for whatever they're doing on YouTube in different social platforms that don't realize, do you realize there was a female behind the helm that for a long time that turned it into what it is today? That's outstanding. Why aren't we talking about this more? >> How about Megan Smith, was the first CTO on the Obama administration. >> That's right. I knew it had to do with Obama. Couldn't remember. Yes. Let's let's find more pedestals. But organizations like WIDS, your involvement as a speaker, showing more people you can be this because you can see it, >> Yeah, exactly. is the right direction that will help hopefully bring us back to some of the pre-pandemic levels, and keep moving forward because there's so much potential with data science that can impact everyone's lives. I always think, you know, we have this expectation that we have our mobile phone and we can get whatever we want wherever we are in the world and whatever time of day it is. And that's all data driven. The regular average person that's not in tech thinks about data as a, well I'm paying for it. What's all these data charges? But it's powering the world. It's powering those experiences that we all want as consumers or in our business lives or we expect to be able to do a transaction, whether it's something in a CRM system or an Uber transaction like that, and have the app respond, maybe even know me a little bit better than I know myself. And that's all data. So I think we're just at the precipice of the massive impact that data science will make in our lives. And luckily we have leaders like you who can help navigate us along this path. >> Thank you. >> What advice for, last question for you is advice for those in the audience who might be nervous or maybe lack a little bit of confidence to go I really like data science, or I really like engineering, but I don't see a lot of me out there. What would you say to them? >> Especially for people who are from like a non-linear track where like going onto that track. >> Yeah, I would say keep going. Keep going. I don't think it's easy. It's not easy. But keep going because the more you go the more, again, you advance and there are opportunities out there. Sometimes it takes a little bit, but just keep going. Keep going and following your dreams, that you get there, right. So again, data science, such a broad field that doesn't require you to come from a specific background. And I think the beauty of data science exactly is this is like the combination, the most successful data science teams are the teams that have all these different backgrounds. So if you think that we as data scientists, we started programming when we were nine, that's not true, right. You can be 30, 40, shifting careers, starting to program right now. It doesn't matter. Like you get there no matter how old you are. And no matter what's your background. >> There's no limit. >> There was no limits. >> I love that, Gabriela, >> Thank so much. for inspiring. I know you inspired me. I'm pretty sure you probably inspired Tracy with your story. And sometimes like what you just said, you have to be your own mentor and that's okay. Because eventually you're going to turn into a mentor for many, many others and sounds like you're already paving that path and we so appreciate it. You are now officially a CUBE alumni. >> Yes. Thank you. >> Yay. We've loved having you. Thank you so much for your time. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> For our guest and for Tracy's Yuan, this is Lisa Martin. We are live at WIDS 23, the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference at Stanford. Stick around. Our next guest joins us in just a few minutes. (upbeat music)