(soothing music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this event, "Build Your Cloud Center of Excellence." I'm your host, Lisa Martin. In the next 15 minutes or so my guest and I are going to be talking about redefining cloud operations, an application modernization for customers, and specifically how partners are helping to speed up that process. As you saw on our first two segments, we talked about problems enterprises are facing with cloud operations. We talked about redefining cloud operations as well to solve these problems. This segment is going to be focusing on how Hitachi Vantara's partners are really helping to speed up that process. We've got Johnson Controls here to talk about their partnership with Hitachi Vantara. Please welcome both of my guests, Prem Balasubramanian is with us, SVP and CTO Digital Solutions at Hitachi Vantara. And Suresh Mothikuru, SVP Customer Success Platform Engineering and Reliability Engineering from Johnson Controls. Gentlemen, welcome to the program, great to have you. >> Thank. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> First question is to both of you and Suresh, we'll start with you. We want to understand, you know, the cloud operations landscape is increasingly complex. We've talked a lot about that in this program. Talk to us, Suresh, about some of the biggest challenges and pin points that you faced with respect to that. >> Thank you. I think it's a great question. I mean, cloud has evolved a lot in the last 10 years. You know, when we were talking about a single cloud whether it's Azure or AWS and GCP, and that was complex enough. Now we are talking about multi-cloud and hybrid and you look at Johnson Controls, we have Azure we have AWS, we have GCP, we have Alibaba and we also support on-prem. So the architecture has become very, very complex and the complexity has grown so much that we are now thinking about whether we should be cloud native or cloud agnostic. So I think, I mean, sometimes it's hard to even explain the complexity because people think, oh, "When you go to cloud, everything is simplified." Cloud does give you a lot of simplicity, but it also really brings a lot more complexity along with it. So, and then next one is pretty important is, you know, generally when you look at cloud services, you have plenty of services that are offered within a cloud, 100, 150 services, 200 services. Even within those companies, you take AWS they might not know, an individual resource might not know about all the services we see. That's a big challenge for us as a customer to really understand each of the service that is provided in these, you know, clouds, well, doesn't matter which one that is. And the third one is pretty big, at least at the CTO the CIO, and the senior leadership level, is cost. Cost is a major factor because cloud, you know, will eat you up if you cannot manage it. If you don't have a good cloud governance process it because every minute you are in it, it's burning cash. So I think if you ask me, these are the three major things that I am facing day to day and that's where I use my partners, which I'll touch base down the line. >> Perfect, we'll talk about that. So Prem, I imagine that these problems are not unique to Johnson Controls or JCI, as you may hear us refer to it. Talk to me Prem about some of the other challenges that you're seeing within the customer landscape. >> So, yeah, I agree, Lisa, these are not very specific to JCI, but there are specific issues in JCI, right? So the way we think about these are, there is a common issue when people go to the cloud and there are very specific and unique issues for businesses, right? So JCI, and we will talk about this in the episode as we move forward. I think Suresh and his team have done some phenomenal step around how to manage this complexity. But there are customers who have a lesser complex cloud which is, they don't go to Alibaba, they don't have footprint in all three clouds. So their multi-cloud footprint could be a bit more manageable, but still struggle with a lot of the same problems around cost, around security, around talent. Talent is a big thing, right? And in Suresh's case I think it's slightly more exasperated because every cloud provider Be it AWS, JCP, or Azure brings in hundreds of services and there is nobody, including many of us, right? We learn every day, nowadays, right? It's not that there is one service integrator who knows all, while technically people can claim as a part of sales. But in reality all of us are continuing to learn in this landscape. And if you put all of this equation together with multiple clouds the complexity just starts to exponentially grow. And that's exactly what I think JCI is experiencing and Suresh's team has been experiencing, and we've been working together. But the common problems are around security talent and cost management of this, right? Those are my three things. And one last thing that I would love to say before we move away from this question is, if you think about cloud operations as a concept that's evolving over the last few years, and I have touched upon this in the previous episode as well, Lisa, right? If you take architectures, we've gone into microservices, we've gone into all these server-less architectures all the fancy things that we want. That helps us go to market faster, be more competent to as a business. But that's not simplified stuff, right? That's complicated stuff. It's a lot more distributed. Second, again, we've advanced and created more modern infrastructure because all of what we are talking is platform as a service, services on the cloud that we are consuming, right? In the same case with development we've moved into a DevOps model. We kind of click a button put some code in a repository, the code starts to run in production within a minute, everything else is automated. But then when we get to operations we are still stuck in a very old way of looking at cloud as an infrastructure, right? So you've got an infra team, you've got an app team, you've got an incident management team, you've got a soft knock, everything. But again, so Suresh can talk about this more because they are making significant strides in thinking about this as a single workload, and how do I apply engineering to go manage this? Because a lot of it is codified, right? So automation. Anyway, so that's kind of where the complexity is and how we are thinking, including JCI as a partner thinking about taming that complexity as we move forward. >> Suresh, let's talk about that taming the complexity. You guys have both done a great job of articulating the ostensible challenges that are there with cloud, especially multi-cloud environments that you're living in. But Suresh, talk about the partnership with Hitachi Vantara. How is it helping to dial down some of those inherent complexities? >> I mean, I always, you know, I think I've said this to Prem multiple times. I treat my partners as my internal, you know, employees. I look at Prem as my coworker or my peers. So the reason for that is I want Prem to have the same vested interest as a partner in my success or JCI success and vice versa, isn't it? I think that's how we operate and that's how we have been operating. And I think I would like to thank Prem and Hitachi Vantara for that really been an amazing partnership. And as he was saying, we have taken a completely holistic approach to how we want to really be in the market and play in the market to our customers. So if you look at my jacket it talks about OpenBlue platform. This is what JCI is building, that we are building this OpenBlue digital platform. And within that, my team, along with Prem's or Hitachi's, we have built what we call as Polaris. It's a technical platform where our apps can run. And this platform is automated end-to-end from a platform engineering standpoint. We stood up a platform engineering organization, a reliability engineering organization, as well as a support organization where Hitachi played a role. As I said previously, you know, for me to scale I'm not going to really have the talent and the knowledge of every function that I'm looking at. And Hitachi, not only they brought the talent but they also brought what he was talking about, Harc. You know, they have set up a lot and now we can leverage it. And they also came up with some really interesting concepts. I went and met them in India. They came up with this concept called IPL. Okay, what is that? They really challenged all their employees that's working for GCI to come up with innovative ideas to solve problems proactively, which is self-healing. You know, how you do that? So I think partners, you know, if they become really vested in your interests, they can do wonders for you. And I think in this case Hitachi is really working very well for us and in many aspects. And I'm leveraging them... You started with support, now I'm leveraging them in the automation, the platform engineering, as well as in the reliability engineering and then in even in the engineering spaces. And that like, they are my end-to-end partner right now? >> So you're really taking that holistic approach that you talked about and it sounds like it's a very collaborative two-way street partnership. Prem, I want to go back to, Suresh mentioned Harc. Talk a little bit about what Harc is and then how partners fit into Hitachi's Harc strategy. >> Great, so let me spend like a few seconds on what Harc is. Lisa, again, I know we've been using the term. Harc stands for Hitachi application reliability sectors. Now the reason we thought about Harc was, like I said in the beginning of this segment, there is an illusion from an architecture standpoint to be more modern, microservices, server-less, reactive architecture, so on and so forth. There is an illusion in your development methodology from Waterfall to agile, to DevOps to lean, agile to path program, whatever, right? Extreme program, so on and so forth. There is an evolution in the space of infrastructure from a point where you were buying these huge humongous servers and putting it in your data center to a point where people don't even see servers anymore, right? You buy it, by a click of a button you don't know the size of it. All you know is a, it's (indistinct) whatever that name means. Let's go provision it on the fly, get go, get your work done, right? When all of this is advanced when you think about operations people have been solving the problem the way they've been solving it 20 years back, right? That's the issue. And Harc was conceived exactly to fix that particular problem, to think about a modern way of operating a modern workload, right? That's exactly what Harc. So it brings together finest engineering talent. So the teams are trained in specific ways of working. We've invested and implemented some of the IP, we work with the best of the breed partner ecosystem, and I'll talk about that in a minute. And we've got these facilities in Dallas and I am talking from my office in Dallas, which is a Harc facility in the US from where we deliver for our customers. And then back in Hyderabad, we've got one more that we opened and these are facilities from where we deliver Harc services for our customers as well, right? And then we are expanding it in Japan and Portugal as we move into 23. That's kind of the plan that we are thinking through. However, that's what Harc is, Lisa, right? That's our solution to this cloud complexity problem. Right? >> Got it, and it sounds like it's going quite global, which is fantastic. So Suresh, I want to have you expand a bit on the partnership, the partner ecosystem and the role that it plays. You talked about it a little bit but what role does the partner ecosystem play in really helping JCI to dial down some of those challenges and the inherent complexities that we talked about? >> Yeah, sure. I think partners play a major role and JCI is very, very good at it. I mean, I've joined JCI 18 months ago, JCI leverages partners pretty extensively. As I said, I leverage Hitachi for my, you know, A group and the (indistinct) space and the cloud operations space, and they're my primary partner. But at the same time, we leverage many other partners. Well, you know, Accenture, SCL, and even on the tooling side we use Datadog and (indistinct). All these guys are major partners of our because the way we like to pick partners is based on our vision and where we want to go. And pick the right partner who's going to really, you know make you successful by investing their resources in you. And what I mean by that is when you have a partner, partner knows exactly what kind of skillset is needed for this customer, for them to really be successful. As I said earlier, we cannot really get all the skillset that we need, we rely on the partners and partners bring the the right skillset, they can scale. I can tell Prem tomorrow, "Hey, I need two parts by next week", and I guarantee it he's going to bring two parts to me. So they let you scale, they let you move fast. And I'm a big believer, in today's day and age, to get things done fast and be more agile. I'm not worried about failure, but for me moving fast is very, very important. And partners really do a very good job bringing that. But I think then they also really make you think, isn't it? Because one thing I like about partners they make you innovate whether they know it or not but they do because, you know, they will come and ask you questions about, "Hey, tell me why you are doing this. Can I review your architecture?" You know, and then they will try to really say I don't think this is going to work. Because they work with so many different clients, not JCI, they bring all that expertise and that's what I look from them, you know, just not, you know, do a T&M job for me. I ask you to do this go... They just bring more than that. That's how I pick my partners. And that's how, you know, Hitachi's Vantara is definitely one of a good partner from that sense because they bring a lot more innovation to the table and I appreciate about that. >> It sounds like, it sounds like a flywheel of innovation. >> Yeah. >> I love that. Last question for both of you, which we're almost out of time here, Prem, I want to go back to you. So I'm a partner, I'm planning on redefining CloudOps at my company. What are the two things you want me to remember from Hitachi Vantara's perspective? >> So before I get to that question, Lisa, the partners that we work with are slightly different from from the partners that, again, there are some similar partners. There are some different partners, right? For example, we pick and choose especially in the Harc space, we pick and choose partners that are more future focused, right? We don't care if they are huge companies or small companies. We go after companies that are future focused that are really, really nimble and can change for our customers need because it's not our need, right? When I pick partners for Harc my ultimate endeavor is to ensure, in this case because we've got (indistinct) GCI on, we are able to operate (indistinct) with the level of satisfaction above and beyond that they're expecting from us. And whatever I don't have I need to get from my partners so that I bring this solution to Suresh. As opposed to bringing a whole lot of people and making them stand in front of Suresh. So that's how I think about partners. What do I want them to do from, and we've always done this so we do workshops with our partners. We just don't go by tools. When we say we are partnering with X, Y, Z, we do workshops with them and we say, this is how we are thinking. Either you build it in your roadmap that helps us leverage you, continue to leverage you. And we do have minimal investments where we fix gaps. We're building some utilities for us to deliver the best service to our customers. And our intention is not to build a product to compete with our partner. Our intention is to just fill the wide space until they go build it into their product suite that we can then leverage it for our customers. So always think about end customers and how can we make it easy for them? Because for all the tool vendors out there seeing this and wanting to partner with Hitachi the biggest thing is tools sprawl, especially on the cloud is very real. For every problem on the cloud. I have a billion tools that are being thrown at me as Suresh if I'm putting my installation and it's not easy at all. It's so confusing. >> Yeah. >> So that's what we want. We want people to simplify that landscape for our end customers, and we are looking at partners that are thinking through the simplification not just making money. >> That makes perfect sense. There really is a very strong symbiosis it sounds like, in the partner ecosystem. And there's a lot of enablement that goes on back and forth it sounds like as well, which is really, to your point it's all about the end customers and what they're expecting. Suresh, last question for you is which is the same one, if I'm a partner what are the things that you want me to consider as I'm planning to redefine CloudOps at my company? >> I'll keep it simple. In my view, I mean, we've touched upon it in multiple facets in this interview about that, the three things. First and foremost, reliability. You know, in today's day and age my products has to be reliable, available and, you know, make sure that the customer's happy with what they're really dealing with, number one. Number two, my product has to be secure. Security is super, super important, okay? And number three, I need to really make sure my customers are getting the value so I keep my cost low. So these three is what I would focus and what I expect from my partners. >> Great advice, guys. Thank you so much for talking through this with me and really showing the audience how strong the partnership is between Hitachi Vantara and JCI. What you're doing together, we'll have to talk to you again to see where things go but we really appreciate your insights and your perspectives. Thank you. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thanks Lisa, thanks for having us. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you so much for watching. (soothing music)

(relaxing music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. We got a great lineup of of guests this program and this segment, we got talking about hot company called, MessageBird. We got three amazing executives and leaders. Rachel Thornton, who's the chief marketing officer, and Andrea Euenheim, Chief People Officer, and Asha Thurthi, Chief Product Officer, We've got the CMO, Chief People Officer, and the Chief Product Officer. We've got everyone who's building that company. This is about building a startup culture that empowers women in tech. Ladies, thanks for coming on and thanks for taking the time. >> Thank you, John, for having us. >> Rachel, you know, you've seen big organizations, you're the CMO at AWS, now at MessageBird. This is a world where now there's new standards, you've got global culture, you can start off anywhere. A lot of things involved in being a C-suite leader, from not only marketing product to customers, but building a product, hiring the right team, team dynamics, power dynamics. So as female leaders, you guys are building that culture that empowers women to not only find their voices, but to use their voices to lead. What's the secret? What are you guys doing? Give us a taste of what's it like right now. Give us a feeling for what's going on in this world for you guys right now. >> I'll go first. I actually want to say that I was the, when MessageBird was building out their team, I was super excited to join because I was so impressed with the fact that the product officer was a woman, the HR officer was a woman. It was so great to see women in those leadership roles and I was just really positive and bullish on that. I felt like any company that was really building out that leadership team and thinking about being conscious of how do we have diverse perspectives and doing that is only going to make the product better. So I was super excited to join and I have really, really enjoyed being on a leadership team where I think we're 50% women. I think that is true. Like it's half women, which is really amazing. >> And that's to be the standard because I mean, software is in every product. Digital transformation is everyone and the world is not 17% women. I mean, let's just face it. So this is really a product issue as well and team issue because I mean, it just makes sense. I mean, this is really still, the industry's behind, this is a big problem. >> But I do think that, like I said, watching what's happening here, it gives me hope. Actually, it makes me inspired for to see other companies adopt it. I think, you know, both Asha and Andrea and you guys chime in, have just, you know, they're doing great jobs as leaders. I feel like we're all sort of, you know, able to speak, able to share our voice and able to inspire the folks in the company when they see that. >> Asha, talk, wait, Asha, could you weigh in on this because people matter in companies and now you have work at home, remote, you're seeing very successful configurations of teams, technical to business across the board, building products and working as a team. What's your take on this and what's your perspective? >> No, no, great question. The time is now. I really feel like the time has come for women to take what's really due for them and not just because we're women, because we are equally strong and contributing on the table. So I'm super excited for the generation that's to come because great voices really represent great customers because customers come in all different shapes and forms and people who are building the products, plus running companies should represent the customers, that end of the day, buy your products. So voice on the table is extremely important and so is making an attempt to make sure that you are hiring across all walks of life, all the way from sea level to even at IC level, ensuring that there is inclusion and diversity from a representation perspective. >> You've got the keys to the kingdom there as the product officer, Chief Product Officer, you know, you got to interface with engineering, you got to interface with the customers and like I mentioned earlier, the products are used by everyone now. This is all the, what's your experience been? What have you learned? Because again, a lot of engineers are male dominated and around the world, teams are male. What's your experience? How do you blend that together? How do you bring that harmony and so, and productivity? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, like I think the first thing is I think acknowledging the current state, which is women in tech, specifically because you asked about my role, continues to be a challenge. Women in tech be it in the product side of the equation or design side of the equation or engineering side of the equation, I think continues to be a challenge. I think all companies will have to lean in, especially starting education from STEM degrees, going forward to see how do you kind of make an effort to ensure that women in technology is not as high of a barrier that it used to be. Women in color in technology is not as high of a barrier as well. And how do you kind of make sure that when you are hiring, when you are advocating for your company, when you're setting up your interview loops, to actually setting up the right platform for all of these employees to thrive. You are ensuring that every walk of this, is kind of including women and making sure that all voice are voices are represented. Andrea, Rachel, I'd love your take as well because products just one piece of this whole equation where you build product. I'm kind of curious to see how you-- >> Andrea, weigh in, because this is like a hiring thing too. Like if you have a special test, like, okay, do we have the right makeup this person's going to, is there a bro test for example? I've heard companies have that where they have this kind of special questions that identify bros 'cause they don't want that in their culture. Is there a playbook? Is there a best practice in sourcing and identifying and interviewing loops? For instance, we just heard, Asha, that was great on the product side, Andrea, this is a big challenge. Putting teams together, having the right cohesive harmony, talent, looking for people, having the right interview loops, identifying that bro or the right makeup that you want to bring in or interview out. What's the strategy? How do you put these teams together because this is the real secret sauce. >> Not sure whether it's a secret sauce, but I think what we have shown that message for, is that we have made a very conscious effort and decision to start leading by example from the top to really build a leadership team that is already combining all the great traits on top of a good diversity in the team. Not only from a gender but also a skills and personality point of view. And then, from there, really making a planful intentional way down to say where do we hire which talent? What is it that we're still missing as a piece of the puzzle to really make the right decisions on leadership but also team compositions to really look at what's the customer needs, how can we build great products, how can we also compose great engineering teams to meet those expectations that our customers have and how do we build for the future? And that needs to happen in all different parts of the organization to really see that we can make a great effort across the board. >> And, you know, Rachel, last year, your talk inspired a lot of folks in conversation around sponsorship and you talk about networking and mentoring, but you highlighted sponsorship, I remember that clearly and that got great play in the conversation. So it's not just mentoring for mentoring's sake, there's also sponsorships. So there's really identifying, hiring, and then working with. And according to McKenzie's report that you guys are highlighting at me, MessageBird one in four C-suite leaders are identified as women and and with more hurdles to climb every day, especially at a startup. >> And I think that's why it has to be a combination of how do you think about your team composition? How do you think about your leadership composition? So all the things that Andrea just said, but then how do you make sure, as you're bringing folks in, you're constructing the right loop so people feel like this is a great place they want to be a part of, that it represents a diverse group of people. And then once they're in, how do you mentor people? What's the mentorship program you put in place? But the sponsorship program, I think like, sponsorship as well as mentorship also matters because you want to make sure when you identify folks in the organization, that you feel are ready for the next step, that you have identified as high potential, how do you come together as a leadership team and have a program that sponsors them, that gets them training or maybe it's executive coaching but also just makes them visible to leaders across the organization. So when it's time to put together the case for that promotion or maybe that new project or that that new group they would lead, everyone is aware of them and everyone has had some sort of interaction with them. So it really is building the right sort of sponsorship framework to help people get the kind of visibility and the kind of support they need to then unlock their potential in other areas. Whether, again, that's promotion or just taking on new groups or taking on new projects. >> Awesome. Well, you guys are fabulous. >> And in addition to this. >> Oh, go ahead, go ahead. >> No, in addition to this, I think it's also what is critical. Even though we're not the biggest company without Amazon and not Microsoft, but I think it's still important to also give exposure to the great people that we have, to make sure that everybody has visibility, everybody has a voice, and to make sure that we can then build sponsorship and mentorship across the different levels and teams and to build a great succession pipeline to really make sure that people can be considered for the next big project that is coming independent of any skill that they might have. But being a voice and having the experience that counts as most important. >> I love that inclusion, you jumped ahead. I wanted to get some questions 'cause you guys are a great group here. I guess the first question I had on the list here, is for you guys, what does it take to build an environment of inclusion? Because that's really key where female identified employees aren't just asked to questions, they take risks, they ask the right questions, they get involved, they're heard, they're recognized. What's it take to build that kind of environment? >> I can go, I think two things come to mind. One, I would say is commitment. Like commitment at the top. That you're not just going to lip sync, but you're going to walk the talk, that this is important to you as a company and who you stand or what you stand for as a human being. And you are going to put in the effort as a leadership team at the top to actually set the right example. Like MessageBird, I think Rachel said in her intro, 50% of the C level is women and you start right there. The second thing I would say is giving our people voice, you know, giving them confidence. Women because of, I don't know, thousands of years of social conditioning as such, hesitate to kind of speak up. So setting the right example, giving them the voice and encouraging them to take the challenges even if they're sponsored or not, to kind of make sure that they're willing to try new things and be not afraid of risk as much, I think is also super important. >> I think that's very, it is so, so true about the voice and about encouragement and just, I think all, you know, making sure people feel like across, you know, the entire organization, that they feel like they have a voice, their voice can be heard. And that we as a leadership team are supportive in those environments and people feel like I can take risks, I can't ask questions, I can push the envelope in terms of, "Hey, do you know, do we agree with this point? Is there room for discussion?" I think when people see that that's encouraged and it's encouraged for everyone, that's powerful. >> The McKinsey study had a lot of data in there. What's the summary on that on the people side? Obviously, the women are underrepresented, one in four, the C-suite leaders are women, but there's also people who are climbing through the ranks. I mean, what's the big takeaway from the McKinsey study beyond the obvious one in four stat? Is there any other messages in there that people should pay attention to? >> I think Asha said it really well with building the pipeline at the top. And I think that's something that we all think about every day. I think Andrea and her team do such a great job in helping us with that, but that is huge. Like, you're going to, you have to really think how can you build that pipeline out? And I think encouraging people, women, underrepresented groups, everyone to just think what do I want to do? What are the companies out there that I think would be great to work for? How can I find the right environment to support me? I think that's important and I think that helps build that pipeline. >> Okay. When you're a startup, you're a lot different than the big company, right? So the big companies are different. You guys are growing, startups are a lot about, you know, don't run a cash, hard charging, creative, teamwork. But it could be tough under fire. The startup, what's the learnings? How do you guys look at that and how do you guys manage that? Because it's super impart of the culture, of where the phase of these startups are in. >> I think the advantage that we have is we're not a big company. So I think in that way, there is a way to really build a culture of empowerment and us making decisions together and independent of where you come from, what experience you have, it's really what you can bring to the table. It's not having the fear of political cohesion. >> Yeah. >> That you have in larger corporations at times. To really build that great team that we are building right now. To say, all that matters to us is to build great products for our customers. And there's a lot of discussion about quota and one in four and I know large corporations are a lot more tied to meeting requirements that are depending on national laws and whatever, which is sometimes required to force a change in culture and how to do business. But I think us as a company, we just see a strong, strong benefit in not worrying about the gender. It's really like making an effort at the beginning to build the culture and the company that is just looking for a great team and a great culture independent of quotas. >> Actually, on the product side, Asha, on the product side. I want to get your thoughts because I know from startups, you know, being done a few myself, product market fit is huge, right? So you got, that's the goal and there's a lot of pressure. Rachel, you got to go to put the go to market together and you got to build the product. If you don't hit it, you got to br agile, you got to be fast, which could cause a lot of friction. You know, it's 'cause people got to reset, regroup. It's not for the faint of heart. How do you, pipeline folks, women are great for that. Are people aware? Do you have to, are people ready for it? Is there a training? How do you get someone ready or is there a test if they're startup ready? >> No, no, it's a great question. So like, we have a value at the company that's called move 200 miles an hour. All startups, I think, will totally resonate with this. As Andrea was saying, it's a balancing act. >> John: Yeah. >> How do you ensure that you're moving 200 miles an hour, but at the same time ensuring that you're hiring the right people who ultimately represent the customer. One example, Rachel and I were talking about this earlier, we actually represent 40% of the B2C emails that send globally. Imagine as the audience who's receiving one of these emails, think your favorites, you know, brand in Nordstrom that's actually sending you an email on the other end. Think about the customer on the other end. So it does require company commitment to ensure that the people you hire, represent ultimately the customer you're going after. So even if you're a startup, that's moving 200 miles an hour with lesser resources than any other bigger company, you have to commit to actually ensuring that your team has the right diversity. Starting all the way from sourcing to ensuring that this person is thriving and getting hopefully promoted to one day replace all of us. Let's put it that way. >> Rachel, weigh in on the startup velocity, challenges, dynamism, thoughts. >> You go, Andrea. >> It's not for everyone, you know, in that way, but it's something that if you find the right environment and the right people who thrive in such an environment like we do, it's magic. And building on that magic that we have is so powerful that we cannot afford giving voice to one group that is stronger than the others. We're counting on each other and this is a key element to who we are and how we want to build going forward. >> Rachel, your reaction, you're in a startup scene, whitewater rafting, heavy. Speed. >> It is very different. It's very different. But I love it. And what Andrea said is totally true. I think it isn't for everyone, but when you find a great organization and when you find a great group of people, it is magic. You know, it just, it's amazing the things you can do and it is a palpable feeling in the company when everyone is, you know, working on the same thing and excited about the same thing. >> You know, it's interesting about startups, not to take a tangent here, but a lot of startups just, it's not as much resource as a big company that that department doesn't exist. A lot of people doing multiple things. Wait a minute, someone doesn't write my emails for me, doesn't do the PowerPoints. Where's the marketing department? Where's the big budgets? There's a lot of juggling and a lot of versatility required, but also, there's opportunities to identify talent that could be hired for something that could move into something else. And this is part of the growth. And that's one side. On the other side, and this is a question, I promise, there's burnout, right? So you have burnout and fatigue, whether it's cultural and, or, I don't see an opportunity to really, truly a lot of aperture for new opportunities. So can you guys share your thoughts on this dynamic? Because in startups, there's a double-edged sword that could be burnout or there could be opportunity. >> I'll go and then I'll have Asha on the product side. I think that's true everywhere. I don't know, it could be that in some startups, it's exasperated, but I think that actually is true whether you're in a big company or a small company. I think, you know, depending on the industry, depending on the company size, depending on what you're going after, you know, you have to be clear about what it is you're going to deliver, how you're going to do it. And I do think it's important that everyone be able to say for themselves, "Hey, I'm excited about this product or I'm excited about this company and here's what I'm going to do," but I'm also going to make sure that I'm not putting myself in such a way that it does, you know, burnout does happen, but I don't think it can confine it to startups. I think it can happen anywhere. >> Okay. Yeah, exactly. We've seen that now. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. John, you've three moms on the call and definitely, we've all kind of come out of Covid into this space. I'm not going to lie, it's really hard. >> Yeah. >> It's really hard, actually balancing and juggling multiple different priorities that you have to. Especially in a startup world, when you move so many different miles an hour and you don't have enough support around you, it is really hard. The one advice I do have for women, which I kind of tell myself very repeatedly, is it's completely okay to be honest, I have taken an intentional action to be a lot more vulnerable over the years. Talk about, you know, having to pick up my child or, you know, having to spend the evening out when I need to spend time with my family. And being open about it because when I do it at the top, I can accept the space for enough people to talk about it a as well. So really, helping women set their own boundaries without feeling guilty about it. Because by nature, we end up, you know, taking care of everything around us. So how do you take care of yourself, fill your cup first so you don't burnout, to your question, I think is extremely critical. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a really great point. Good point. I think about honesty and transparency comes in with boundaries, but also empathy. I think a lot of people, there's a lot of awareness now to this factor of teamwork and remote and creativity. Productivity is kind of a new, not new thing, but it's kind of more forefront and that's super important. How do you guys promote that? Because you still got to move fast, you got to schedule things differently. I mean, I find myself much more schedule oriented and it's hard to coordinate. How do you guys balance that because it's a management challenge, an opportunity at the same time to have that inclusivity vibe. >> I think on the empathy part on balancing, I just think you have to focus on it. It has to be a conscious choice. And I think, you know, sometimes we do it great and I only speak for myself. Sometimes I do it great, sometimes I don't. But I definitely think you have to focus on it. Think about it, think about where are you, you know, where are you scheduling things, what are you doing? How are you making sure you're thinking about your team, thinking about the, you know, the example you're providing or the example you're setting. >> Thoughts on the boundaries and when does something not a boundary, when it's not productive. 'Cause, you know, so I got my boundaries and they're like, "Wait, whoa, whoa, stay in your lane." No one likes to hear that. Stay in your lane thing. I mean, not to say that that people shouldn't stay in their lane. I just find that a little bit off-putting like, you know, stay in your lane. That sounds like a, it's against the culture. What do you guys think about how people should be thinking about their norms in these environments whether it's inclusivity and diversity? What are some of the areas to stay away from and what are the areas to promote in terms of how they'll communicate these boundaries and, or, good lanes, I should say. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say, stay in your lane's a bad thing, but, so it could be more off-putting. >> I can touch on something which is what can you do more of? I really resonated so much with Rachel's comment from last year on sponsorship. I am the product of sponsorship so it really resonates with me. Also, wouldn't even be sitting here with these two wonderful women and you. In addition to that, I think allyship, I think that's extremely important. What I would love to, you know, see everybody set the right example on is promoting a lot more of allyship where you kind of encourage, not just women, underrepresented minority, knowing really well the backgrounds that they come from and the, you know, situational context around it and seeing how can you be a great ally. And what great ally looks like for me is simple things. If you're in a meeting full of people and you see the underrepresented folks not talking or sharing their voice, how can you, as the senior person in the room, and you know, any person in the room, actually share the voice out and get their thoughts. If you can have many different people present in your company, all hands or what have you, what other forums that can be, how do you ensure that it's not just you always, but like you're putting in the spotlight on other people and, you know, when calibrations come in, when recruiting comes in, how do you ensure that your loops are diverse? So long story short, how do you ensure that you are setting the right example even if you don't belong to one of these groups, that I think do more of. >> Well, that's a great call out on the allies on mentorship programs and support networks. These are important. How should someone go forward and build a mentorship program and support networks so people can help each other out? Is there a way you guys have found best practices, Rachel and team? Is there a strategy that works well? >> Actually, Asha has some great examples here, so I'm going to toss it over to her. >> Thank you, Andy. Team, like this is what I would love for everyone to do more of. Like, we just kicked off 2023, why not make it a goal for this year? Let's seize the year to ensure that, you know, I'll start off with tech, especially where women are underrepresented. We ensure that all of your rock stars, all of your women, at least have a mentor, either within the organization or you reach out to your network externally and pair this person up with a mentor. What ultimately helps us, people having somebody they can bounce off their ideas off, get tips, get advice on how to tackle a particular situation. So really, pairing people up to ensure that they have a way to kind of bounce off ideas and see how can they elevate themselves, I think will go a long way. >> I mean, this is a big problem. Rachel, you've been a leader, you've seen this happen before. How do people climb through the ranks successfully? And you've seen people, maybe, fail a little bit. Is there a best practice or advice you could share with folks that are out there watching and listening on, you know, how to be savvy on climbing through the ranks, whether it's finding mentors being the right place at the right time. I always have the old saying, you know, "Hang around the basketball rim and you'll get a rebound." So is it timing, is it placement? What's your best practice advice for coming through the rim? >> I have a little, and then again, I think I've been very impressed with the team Asha built and just the things that she's done in her career. And I think that for women in tech, that's crucial. I would just say overall, finding your voice, using your voice, but also thinking about who's around you, who's supportive, who are the mentors or who are the people you would love to either mentor or have mentored you. And be sure to speak up and and make that known. And then I also think, don't be afraid to, like I said, use your voice, ask questions. Don't be afraid to also help people up. I think, Asha, what you said a few minutes ago is so true. Like, if there are folks in the room that aren't, you know, as vocal, that you know have amazing ideas, be sure that you're there to help them up, to help them with their voice 'cause you want to make sure that it just brings more to the conversation. >> Asha, you're running a product group, that's a big challenge. What's your thoughts on that? Can you share your opinion? >> Yeah, imposter syndrome is a real thing. I would definitely say confidence is self-taught is what I have really learned over the years and really kind of knowing that the next person to you may not be any smarter than you or may not be any less smart than you. So really, treating everybody as an equal around you and finding that inner strength and inner voice to be able to speak for yourself and to be able to share your ideas and do the best that you possibly can. Bring the A game and when you need help, asking for it. So really, just knowing that and taking initiative and we're here to help. >> Awesome. Andrea, you're here. I want to get your thoughts on building out a mentoring program and networks for women so they can have this great environment. What's it take to do that? I mean, it's hard to do. Building out meaningful networking mentorship program and sport network for women to help each other's hard. What's your experience? >> I think you need some strong leaders within an organization who are willing to sponsor and support. You need somebody to start it. It's usually senior female leaders who are kickstarting a networking environment and some good groups to have some great impact and then, also making sure that they get the visibility to see we accomplish great things together. We raise the topics that not everybody would see. And really bringing the other voice to the table to have like contradicting perspectives on what a company should do on the product side, but also on the general strategic side of things. And then building from there to say, "How can we also build great project teams that support these ideas and to really get the momentum going." Not big programs, but will really impact all communities that will push the topics. >> Awesome. Well, great, great, great panel here. Building a startup culture that empowers women in tech. You guys are amazing. Final question, rapid fire, go down the line. We'll start with Rachel, Andrea, Asha. What's it take to have that kind of success for startup? If you could share quickly what your advice is for people watching and succeeding in a startup. >> I would say focus, intention, and commitment. >> John: Andrea. >> I would say courage, backbone, authenticity. >> I couldn't agree more with Rachel. Focus and commitment. It is for me too. >> Well, you guys are amazing. Congratulations. And MessageBird, again, great ratios. You guys are succeeding. You're a standard for the industry and congratulations and thank you for taking the time on theCUBE's coverage National Women's Day. We also have women in data science at Stanford, with other programs going on today. It's a big day. Thank you very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thank you. >> Thank you, Jim. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of international news. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (relaxing music)

(soothing music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this event, "Build Your Cloud Center of Excellence." I'm your host, Lisa Martin. In the next 15 minutes or so my guest and I are going to be talking about redefining cloud operations, an application modernization for customers, and specifically how partners are helping to speed up that process. As you saw on our first two segments, we talked about problems enterprises are facing with cloud operations. We talked about redefining cloud operations as well to solve these problems. This segment is going to be focusing on how Hitachi Vantara's partners are really helping to speed up that process. We've got Johnson Controls here to talk about their partnership with Hitachi Vantara. Please welcome both of my guests, Prem Balasubramanian is with us, SVP and CTO Digital Solutions at Hitachi Vantara. And Suresh Mothikuru, SVP Customer Success Platform Engineering and Reliability Engineering from Johnson Controls. Gentlemen, welcome to the program, great to have you. >> Thank. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> First question is to both of you and Suresh, we'll start with you. We want to understand, you know, the cloud operations landscape is increasingly complex. We've talked a lot about that in this program. Talk to us, Suresh, about some of the biggest challenges and pin points that you faced with respect to that. >> Thank you. I think it's a great question. I mean, cloud has evolved a lot in the last 10 years. You know, when we were talking about a single cloud whether it's Azure or AWS and GCP, and that was complex enough. Now we are talking about multi-cloud and hybrid and you look at Johnson Controls, we have Azure we have AWS, we have GCP, we have Alibaba and we also support on-prem. So the architecture has become very, very complex and the complexity has grown so much that we are now thinking about whether we should be cloud native or cloud agnostic. So I think, I mean, sometimes it's hard to even explain the complexity because people think, oh, "When you go to cloud, everything is simplified." Cloud does give you a lot of simplicity, but it also really brings a lot more complexity along with it. So, and then next one is pretty important is, you know, generally when you look at cloud services, you have plenty of services that are offered within a cloud, 100, 150 services, 200 services. Even within those companies, you take AWS they might not know, an individual resource might not know about all the services we see. That's a big challenge for us as a customer to really understand each of the service that is provided in these, you know, clouds, well, doesn't matter which one that is. And the third one is pretty big, at least at the CTO the CIO, and the senior leadership level, is cost. Cost is a major factor because cloud, you know, will eat you up if you cannot manage it. If you don't have a good cloud governance process it because every minute you are in it, it's burning cash. So I think if you ask me, these are the three major things that I am facing day to day and that's where I use my partners, which I'll touch base down the line. >> Perfect, we'll talk about that. So Prem, I imagine that these problems are not unique to Johnson Controls or JCI, as you may hear us refer to it. Talk to me Prem about some of the other challenges that you're seeing within the customer landscape. >> So, yeah, I agree, Lisa, these are not very specific to JCI, but there are specific issues in JCI, right? So the way we think about these are, there is a common issue when people go to the cloud and there are very specific and unique issues for businesses, right? So JCI, and we will talk about this in the episode as we move forward. I think Suresh and his team have done some phenomenal step around how to manage this complexity. But there are customers who have a lesser complex cloud which is, they don't go to Alibaba, they don't have footprint in all three clouds. So their multi-cloud footprint could be a bit more manageable, but still struggle with a lot of the same problems around cost, around security, around talent. Talent is a big thing, right? And in Suresh's case I think it's slightly more exasperated because every cloud provider Be it AWS, JCP, or Azure brings in hundreds of services and there is nobody, including many of us, right? We learn every day, nowadays, right? It's not that there is one service integrator who knows all, while technically people can claim as a part of sales. But in reality all of us are continuing to learn in this landscape. And if you put all of this equation together with multiple clouds the complexity just starts to exponentially grow. And that's exactly what I think JCI is experiencing and Suresh's team has been experiencing, and we've been working together. But the common problems are around security talent and cost management of this, right? Those are my three things. And one last thing that I would love to say before we move away from this question is, if you think about cloud operations as a concept that's evolving over the last few years, and I have touched upon this in the previous episode as well, Lisa, right? If you take architectures, we've gone into microservices, we've gone into all these server-less architectures all the fancy things that we want. That helps us go to market faster, be more competent to as a business. But that's not simplified stuff, right? That's complicated stuff. It's a lot more distributed. Second, again, we've advanced and created more modern infrastructure because all of what we are talking is platform as a service, services on the cloud that we are consuming, right? In the same case with development we've moved into a DevOps model. We kind of click a button put some code in a repository, the code starts to run in production within a minute, everything else is automated. But then when we get to operations we are still stuck in a very old way of looking at cloud as an infrastructure, right? So you've got an infra team, you've got an app team, you've got an incident management team, you've got a soft knock, everything. But again, so Suresh can talk about this more because they are making significant strides in thinking about this as a single workload, and how do I apply engineering to go manage this? Because a lot of it is codified, right? So automation. Anyway, so that's kind of where the complexity is and how we are thinking, including JCI as a partner thinking about taming that complexity as we move forward. >> Suresh, let's talk about that taming the complexity. You guys have both done a great job of articulating the ostensible challenges that are there with cloud, especially multi-cloud environments that you're living in. But Suresh, talk about the partnership with Hitachi Vantara. How is it helping to dial down some of those inherent complexities? >> I mean, I always, you know, I think I've said this to Prem multiple times. I treat my partners as my internal, you know, employees. I look at Prem as my coworker or my peers. So the reason for that is I want Prem to have the same vested interest as a partner in my success or JCI success and vice versa, isn't it? I think that's how we operate and that's how we have been operating. And I think I would like to thank Prem and Hitachi Vantara for that really been an amazing partnership. And as he was saying, we have taken a completely holistic approach to how we want to really be in the market and play in the market to our customers. So if you look at my jacket it talks about OpenBlue platform. This is what JCI is building, that we are building this OpenBlue digital platform. And within that, my team, along with Prem's or Hitachi's, we have built what we call as Polaris. It's a technical platform where our apps can run. And this platform is automated end-to-end from a platform engineering standpoint. We stood up a platform engineering organization, a reliability engineering organization, as well as a support organization where Hitachi played a role. As I said previously, you know, for me to scale I'm not going to really have the talent and the knowledge of every function that I'm looking at. And Hitachi, not only they brought the talent but they also brought what he was talking about, Harc. You know, they have set up a lot and now we can leverage it. And they also came up with some really interesting concepts. I went and met them in India. They came up with this concept called IPL. Okay, what is that? They really challenged all their employees that's working for GCI to come up with innovative ideas to solve problems proactively, which is self-healing. You know, how you do that? So I think partners, you know, if they become really vested in your interests, they can do wonders for you. And I think in this case Hitachi is really working very well for us and in many aspects. And I'm leveraging them... You started with support, now I'm leveraging them in the automation, the platform engineering, as well as in the reliability engineering and then in even in the engineering spaces. And that like, they are my end-to-end partner right now? >> So you're really taking that holistic approach that you talked about and it sounds like it's a very collaborative two-way street partnership. Prem, I want to go back to, Suresh mentioned Harc. Talk a little bit about what Harc is and then how partners fit into Hitachi's Harc strategy. >> Great, so let me spend like a few seconds on what Harc is. Lisa, again, I know we've been using the term. Harc stands for Hitachi application reliability sectors. Now the reason we thought about Harc was, like I said in the beginning of this segment, there is an illusion from an architecture standpoint to be more modern, microservices, server-less, reactive architecture, so on and so forth. There is an illusion in your development methodology from Waterfall to agile, to DevOps to lean, agile to path program, whatever, right? Extreme program, so on and so forth. There is an evolution in the space of infrastructure from a point where you were buying these huge humongous servers and putting it in your data center to a point where people don't even see servers anymore, right? You buy it, by a click of a button you don't know the size of it. All you know is a, it's (indistinct) whatever that name means. Let's go provision it on the fly, get go, get your work done, right? When all of this is advanced when you think about operations people have been solving the problem the way they've been solving it 20 years back, right? That's the issue. And Harc was conceived exactly to fix that particular problem, to think about a modern way of operating a modern workload, right? That's exactly what Harc. So it brings together finest engineering talent. So the teams are trained in specific ways of working. We've invested and implemented some of the IP, we work with the best of the breed partner ecosystem, and I'll talk about that in a minute. And we've got these facilities in Dallas and I am talking from my office in Dallas, which is a Harc facility in the US from where we deliver for our customers. And then back in Hyderabad, we've got one more that we opened and these are facilities from where we deliver Harc services for our customers as well, right? And then we are expanding it in Japan and Portugal as we move into 23. That's kind of the plan that we are thinking through. However, that's what Harc is, Lisa, right? That's our solution to this cloud complexity problem. Right? >> Got it, and it sounds like it's going quite global, which is fantastic. So Suresh, I want to have you expand a bit on the partnership, the partner ecosystem and the role that it plays. You talked about it a little bit but what role does the partner ecosystem play in really helping JCI to dial down some of those challenges and the inherent complexities that we talked about? >> Yeah, sure. I think partners play a major role and JCI is very, very good at it. I mean, I've joined JCI 18 months ago, JCI leverages partners pretty extensively. As I said, I leverage Hitachi for my, you know, A group and the (indistinct) space and the cloud operations space, and they're my primary partner. But at the same time, we leverage many other partners. Well, you know, Accenture, SCL, and even on the tooling side we use Datadog and (indistinct). All these guys are major partners of our because the way we like to pick partners is based on our vision and where we want to go. And pick the right partner who's going to really, you know make you successful by investing their resources in you. And what I mean by that is when you have a partner, partner knows exactly what kind of skillset is needed for this customer, for them to really be successful. As I said earlier, we cannot really get all the skillset that we need, we rely on the partners and partners bring the the right skillset, they can scale. I can tell Prem tomorrow, "Hey, I need two parts by next week", and I guarantee it he's going to bring two parts to me. So they let you scale, they let you move fast. And I'm a big believer, in today's day and age, to get things done fast and be more agile. I'm not worried about failure, but for me moving fast is very, very important. And partners really do a very good job bringing that. But I think then they also really make you think, isn't it? Because one thing I like about partners they make you innovate whether they know it or not but they do because, you know, they will come and ask you questions about, "Hey, tell me why you are doing this. Can I review your architecture?" You know, and then they will try to really say I don't think this is going to work. Because they work with so many different clients, not JCI, they bring all that expertise and that's what I look from them, you know, just not, you know, do a T&M job for me. I ask you to do this go... They just bring more than that. That's how I pick my partners. And that's how, you know, Hitachi's Vantara is definitely one of a good partner from that sense because they bring a lot more innovation to the table and I appreciate about that. >> It sounds like, it sounds like a flywheel of innovation. >> Yeah. >> I love that. Last question for both of you, which we're almost out of time here, Prem, I want to go back to you. So I'm a partner, I'm planning on redefining CloudOps at my company. What are the two things you want me to remember from Hitachi Vantara's perspective? >> So before I get to that question, Lisa, the partners that we work with are slightly different from from the partners that, again, there are some similar partners. There are some different partners, right? For example, we pick and choose especially in the Harc space, we pick and choose partners that are more future focused, right? We don't care if they are huge companies or small companies. We go after companies that are future focused that are really, really nimble and can change for our customers need because it's not our need, right? When I pick partners for Harc my ultimate endeavor is to ensure, in this case because we've got (indistinct) GCI on, we are able to operate (indistinct) with the level of satisfaction above and beyond that they're expecting from us. And whatever I don't have I need to get from my partners so that I bring this solution to Suresh. As opposed to bringing a whole lot of people and making them stand in front of Suresh. So that's how I think about partners. What do I want them to do from, and we've always done this so we do workshops with our partners. We just don't go by tools. When we say we are partnering with X, Y, Z, we do workshops with them and we say, this is how we are thinking. Either you build it in your roadmap that helps us leverage you, continue to leverage you. And we do have minimal investments where we fix gaps. We're building some utilities for us to deliver the best service to our customers. And our intention is not to build a product to compete with our partner. Our intention is to just fill the wide space until they go build it into their product suite that we can then leverage it for our customers. So always think about end customers and how can we make it easy for them? Because for all the tool vendors out there seeing this and wanting to partner with Hitachi the biggest thing is tools sprawl, especially on the cloud is very real. For every problem on the cloud. I have a billion tools that are being thrown at me as Suresh if I'm putting my installation and it's not easy at all. It's so confusing. >> Yeah. >> So that's what we want. We want people to simplify that landscape for our end customers, and we are looking at partners that are thinking through the simplification not just making money. >> That makes perfect sense. There really is a very strong symbiosis it sounds like, in the partner ecosystem. And there's a lot of enablement that goes on back and forth it sounds like as well, which is really, to your point it's all about the end customers and what they're expecting. Suresh, last question for you is which is the same one, if I'm a partner what are the things that you want me to consider as I'm planning to redefine CloudOps at my company? >> I'll keep it simple. In my view, I mean, we've touched upon it in multiple facets in this interview about that, the three things. First and foremost, reliability. You know, in today's day and age my products has to be reliable, available and, you know, make sure that the customer's happy with what they're really dealing with, number one. Number two, my product has to be secure. Security is super, super important, okay? And number three, I need to really make sure my customers are getting the value so I keep my cost low. So these three is what I would focus and what I expect from my partners. >> Great advice, guys. Thank you so much for talking through this with me and really showing the audience how strong the partnership is between Hitachi Vantara and JCI. What you're doing together, we'll have to talk to you again to see where things go but we really appreciate your insights and your perspectives. Thank you. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thanks Lisa, thanks for having us. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you so much for watching. (soothing music)

(soothing music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this event, "Build Your Cloud Center of Excellence." I'm your host, Lisa Martin. In the next 15 minutes or so my guest and I are going to be talking about redefining cloud operations, an application modernization for customers, and specifically how partners are helping to speed up that process. As you saw on our first two segments, we talked about problems enterprises are facing with cloud operations. We talked about redefining cloud operations as well to solve these problems. This segment is going to be focusing on how Hitachi Vantara's partners are really helping to speed up that process. We've got Johnson Controls here to talk about their partnership with Hitachi Vantara. Please welcome both of my guests, Prem Balasubramanian is with us, SVP and CTO Digital Solutions at Hitachi Vantara. And Suresh Mothikuru, SVP Customer Success Platform Engineering and Reliability Engineering from Johnson Controls. Gentlemen, welcome to the program, great to have you. >> Thank. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> First question is to both of you and Suresh, we'll start with you. We want to understand, you know, the cloud operations landscape is increasingly complex. We've talked a lot about that in this program. Talk to us, Suresh, about some of the biggest challenges and pin points that you faced with respect to that. >> Thank you. I think it's a great question. I mean, cloud has evolved a lot in the last 10 years. You know, when we were talking about a single cloud whether it's Azure or AWS and GCP, and that was complex enough. Now we are talking about multi-cloud and hybrid and you look at Johnson Controls, we have Azure we have AWS, we have GCP, we have Alibaba and we also support on-prem. So the architecture has become very, very complex and the complexity has grown so much that we are now thinking about whether we should be cloud native or cloud agnostic. So I think, I mean, sometimes it's hard to even explain the complexity because people think, oh, "When you go to cloud, everything is simplified." Cloud does give you a lot of simplicity, but it also really brings a lot more complexity along with it. So, and then next one is pretty important is, you know, generally when you look at cloud services, you have plenty of services that are offered within a cloud, 100, 150 services, 200 services. Even within those companies, you take AWS they might not know, an individual resource might not know about all the services we see. That's a big challenge for us as a customer to really understand each of the service that is provided in these, you know, clouds, well, doesn't matter which one that is. And the third one is pretty big, at least at the CTO the CIO, and the senior leadership level, is cost. Cost is a major factor because cloud, you know, will eat you up if you cannot manage it. If you don't have a good cloud governance process it because every minute you are in it, it's burning cash. So I think if you ask me, these are the three major things that I am facing day to day and that's where I use my partners, which I'll touch base down the line. >> Perfect, we'll talk about that. So Prem, I imagine that these problems are not unique to Johnson Controls or JCI, as you may hear us refer to it. Talk to me Prem about some of the other challenges that you're seeing within the customer landscape. >> So, yeah, I agree, Lisa, these are not very specific to JCI, but there are specific issues in JCI, right? So the way we think about these are, there is a common issue when people go to the cloud and there are very specific and unique issues for businesses, right? So JCI, and we will talk about this in the episode as we move forward. I think Suresh and his team have done some phenomenal step around how to manage this complexity. But there are customers who have a lesser complex cloud which is, they don't go to Alibaba, they don't have footprint in all three clouds. So their multi-cloud footprint could be a bit more manageable, but still struggle with a lot of the same problems around cost, around security, around talent. Talent is a big thing, right? And in Suresh's case I think it's slightly more exasperated because every cloud provider Be it AWS, JCP, or Azure brings in hundreds of services and there is nobody, including many of us, right? We learn every day, nowadays, right? It's not that there is one service integrator who knows all, while technically people can claim as a part of sales. But in reality all of us are continuing to learn in this landscape. And if you put all of this equation together with multiple clouds the complexity just starts to exponentially grow. And that's exactly what I think JCI is experiencing and Suresh's team has been experiencing, and we've been working together. But the common problems are around security talent and cost management of this, right? Those are my three things. And one last thing that I would love to say before we move away from this question is, if you think about cloud operations as a concept that's evolving over the last few years, and I have touched upon this in the previous episode as well, Lisa, right? If you take architectures, we've gone into microservices, we've gone into all these server-less architectures all the fancy things that we want. That helps us go to market faster, be more competent to as a business. But that's not simplified stuff, right? That's complicated stuff. It's a lot more distributed. Second, again, we've advanced and created more modern infrastructure because all of what we are talking is platform as a service, services on the cloud that we are consuming, right? In the same case with development we've moved into a DevOps model. We kind of click a button put some code in a repository, the code starts to run in production within a minute, everything else is automated. But then when we get to operations we are still stuck in a very old way of looking at cloud as an infrastructure, right? So you've got an infra team, you've got an app team, you've got an incident management team, you've got a soft knock, everything. But again, so Suresh can talk about this more because they are making significant strides in thinking about this as a single workload, and how do I apply engineering to go manage this? Because a lot of it is codified, right? So automation. Anyway, so that's kind of where the complexity is and how we are thinking, including JCI as a partner thinking about taming that complexity as we move forward. >> Suresh, let's talk about that taming the complexity. You guys have both done a great job of articulating the ostensible challenges that are there with cloud, especially multi-cloud environments that you're living in. But Suresh, talk about the partnership with Hitachi Vantara. How is it helping to dial down some of those inherent complexities? >> I mean, I always, you know, I think I've said this to Prem multiple times. I treat my partners as my internal, you know, employees. I look at Prem as my coworker or my peers. So the reason for that is I want Prem to have the same vested interest as a partner in my success or JCI success and vice versa, isn't it? I think that's how we operate and that's how we have been operating. And I think I would like to thank Prem and Hitachi Vantara for that really been an amazing partnership. And as he was saying, we have taken a completely holistic approach to how we want to really be in the market and play in the market to our customers. So if you look at my jacket it talks about OpenBlue platform. This is what JCI is building, that we are building this OpenBlue digital platform. And within that, my team, along with Prem's or Hitachi's, we have built what we call as Polaris. It's a technical platform where our apps can run. And this platform is automated end-to-end from a platform engineering standpoint. We stood up a platform engineering organization, a reliability engineering organization, as well as a support organization where Hitachi played a role. As I said previously, you know, for me to scale I'm not going to really have the talent and the knowledge of every function that I'm looking at. And Hitachi, not only they brought the talent but they also brought what he was talking about, Harc. You know, they have set up a lot and now we can leverage it. And they also came up with some really interesting concepts. I went and met them in India. They came up with this concept called IPL. Okay, what is that? They really challenged all their employees that's working for GCI to come up with innovative ideas to solve problems proactively, which is self-healing. You know, how you do that? So I think partners, you know, if they become really vested in your interests, they can do wonders for you. And I think in this case Hitachi is really working very well for us and in many aspects. And I'm leveraging them... You started with support, now I'm leveraging them in the automation, the platform engineering, as well as in the reliability engineering and then in even in the engineering spaces. And that like, they are my end-to-end partner right now? >> So you're really taking that holistic approach that you talked about and it sounds like it's a very collaborative two-way street partnership. Prem, I want to go back to, Suresh mentioned Harc. Talk a little bit about what Harc is and then how partners fit into Hitachi's Harc strategy. >> Great, so let me spend like a few seconds on what Harc is. Lisa, again, I know we've been using the term. Harc stands for Hitachi application reliability sectors. Now the reason we thought about Harc was, like I said in the beginning of this segment, there is an illusion from an architecture standpoint to be more modern, microservices, server-less, reactive architecture, so on and so forth. There is an illusion in your development methodology from Waterfall to agile, to DevOps to lean, agile to path program, whatever, right? Extreme program, so on and so forth. There is an evolution in the space of infrastructure from a point where you were buying these huge humongous servers and putting it in your data center to a point where people don't even see servers anymore, right? You buy it, by a click of a button you don't know the size of it. All you know is a, it's (indistinct) whatever that name means. Let's go provision it on the fly, get go, get your work done, right? When all of this is advanced when you think about operations people have been solving the problem the way they've been solving it 20 years back, right? That's the issue. And Harc was conceived exactly to fix that particular problem, to think about a modern way of operating a modern workload, right? That's exactly what Harc. So it brings together finest engineering talent. So the teams are trained in specific ways of working. We've invested and implemented some of the IP, we work with the best of the breed partner ecosystem, and I'll talk about that in a minute. And we've got these facilities in Dallas and I am talking from my office in Dallas, which is a Harc facility in the US from where we deliver for our customers. And then back in Hyderabad, we've got one more that we opened and these are facilities from where we deliver Harc services for our customers as well, right? And then we are expanding it in Japan and Portugal as we move into 23. That's kind of the plan that we are thinking through. However, that's what Harc is, Lisa, right? That's our solution to this cloud complexity problem. Right? >> Got it, and it sounds like it's going quite global, which is fantastic. So Suresh, I want to have you expand a bit on the partnership, the partner ecosystem and the role that it plays. You talked about it a little bit but what role does the partner ecosystem play in really helping JCI to dial down some of those challenges and the inherent complexities that we talked about? >> Yeah, sure. I think partners play a major role and JCI is very, very good at it. I mean, I've joined JCI 18 months ago, JCI leverages partners pretty extensively. As I said, I leverage Hitachi for my, you know, A group and the (indistinct) space and the cloud operations space, and they're my primary partner. But at the same time, we leverage many other partners. Well, you know, Accenture, SCL, and even on the tooling side we use Datadog and (indistinct). All these guys are major partners of our because the way we like to pick partners is based on our vision and where we want to go. And pick the right partner who's going to really, you know make you successful by investing their resources in you. And what I mean by that is when you have a partner, partner knows exactly what kind of skillset is needed for this customer, for them to really be successful. As I said earlier, we cannot really get all the skillset that we need, we rely on the partners and partners bring the the right skillset, they can scale. I can tell Prem tomorrow, "Hey, I need two parts by next week", and I guarantee it he's going to bring two parts to me. So they let you scale, they let you move fast. And I'm a big believer, in today's day and age, to get things done fast and be more agile. I'm not worried about failure, but for me moving fast is very, very important. And partners really do a very good job bringing that. But I think then they also really make you think, isn't it? Because one thing I like about partners they make you innovate whether they know it or not but they do because, you know, they will come and ask you questions about, "Hey, tell me why you are doing this. Can I review your architecture?" You know, and then they will try to really say I don't think this is going to work. Because they work with so many different clients, not JCI, they bring all that expertise and that's what I look from them, you know, just not, you know, do a T&M job for me. I ask you to do this go... They just bring more than that. That's how I pick my partners. And that's how, you know, Hitachi's Vantara is definitely one of a good partner from that sense because they bring a lot more innovation to the table and I appreciate about that. >> It sounds like, it sounds like a flywheel of innovation. >> Yeah. >> I love that. Last question for both of you, which we're almost out of time here, Prem, I want to go back to you. So I'm a partner, I'm planning on redefining CloudOps at my company. What are the two things you want me to remember from Hitachi Vantara's perspective? >> So before I get to that question, Lisa, the partners that we work with are slightly different from from the partners that, again, there are some similar partners. There are some different partners, right? For example, we pick and choose especially in the Harc space, we pick and choose partners that are more future focused, right? We don't care if they are huge companies or small companies. We go after companies that are future focused that are really, really nimble and can change for our customers need because it's not our need, right? When I pick partners for Harc my ultimate endeavor is to ensure, in this case because we've got (indistinct) GCI on, we are able to operate (indistinct) with the level of satisfaction above and beyond that they're expecting from us. And whatever I don't have I need to get from my partners so that I bring this solution to Suresh. As opposed to bringing a whole lot of people and making them stand in front of Suresh. So that's how I think about partners. What do I want them to do from, and we've always done this so we do workshops with our partners. We just don't go by tools. When we say we are partnering with X, Y, Z, we do workshops with them and we say, this is how we are thinking. Either you build it in your roadmap that helps us leverage you, continue to leverage you. And we do have minimal investments where we fix gaps. We're building some utilities for us to deliver the best service to our customers. And our intention is not to build a product to compete with our partner. Our intention is to just fill the wide space until they go build it into their product suite that we can then leverage it for our customers. So always think about end customers and how can we make it easy for them? Because for all the tool vendors out there seeing this and wanting to partner with Hitachi the biggest thing is tools sprawl, especially on the cloud is very real. For every problem on the cloud. I have a billion tools that are being thrown at me as Suresh if I'm putting my installation and it's not easy at all. It's so confusing. >> Yeah. >> So that's what we want. We want people to simplify that landscape for our end customers, and we are looking at partners that are thinking through the simplification not just making money. >> That makes perfect sense. There really is a very strong symbiosis it sounds like, in the partner ecosystem. And there's a lot of enablement that goes on back and forth it sounds like as well, which is really, to your point it's all about the end customers and what they're expecting. Suresh, last question for you is which is the same one, if I'm a partner what are the things that you want me to consider as I'm planning to redefine CloudOps at my company? >> I'll keep it simple. In my view, I mean, we've touched upon it in multiple facets in this interview about that, the three things. First and foremost, reliability. You know, in today's day and age my products has to be reliable, available and, you know, make sure that the customer's happy with what they're really dealing with, number one. Number two, my product has to be secure. Security is super, super important, okay? And number three, I need to really make sure my customers are getting the value so I keep my cost low. So these three is what I would focus and what I expect from my partners. >> Great advice, guys. Thank you so much for talking through this with me and really showing the audience how strong the partnership is between Hitachi Vantara and JCI. What you're doing together, we'll have to talk to you again to see where things go but we really appreciate your insights and your perspectives. Thank you. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thanks Lisa, thanks for having us. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you so much for watching. (soothing music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage here at AWS re:Invent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is going to be the topic. Paul Daugherty, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, Global Managing Director of Thought Leadership and Technology Research, Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE for this conversation around your new hit book, "Radically Human." >> Thanks, John. It's great to be with you and great to be present at re:Invent. >> We've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolution is going on now where things have consequences and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as as humans. And so I love the book, very, very strong content, really right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations, but I noticed you got the structure, part one and part two, this book seems to be packing a big punch. What was the motivation, and what was some of the background in putting the book together? >> That's a great question, John. And I'll start, and then, Jim, my co-author and colleague and partner on the book can join in too. If you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called "Human + Machine", which focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the human plus machine pairing. And then when we started working on the next book, it was the COVID era. COVID came on line as we were writing the book. And that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing. Once COVID hit, every company became more dependent on technology. Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies, and what was different from the first research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that pre-pandemic, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of 2x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic, we redid the research and the gap widened into 5x. And I think that's played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around inflation, energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in "Radically Human." And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud, data and AI, and the metaverse that signal out as three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. In the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are going to set companies apart as they look to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >> Jim, weigh in on this flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. >> You used a really important word there and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as a point solution. They don't think about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that. All right, if you're going to build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate it using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability? >> I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you set the table. It's like, 'cause people right now are like in the mode of what's going on around me? I've been living through three years of COVID. We're coming out the other side. The world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home. Like, here's the current situation and then part two is here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or society. >> Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where "Radically Human", the title came from. And what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot. And the whole hypothesis or premise of the book I should say, is that the more human like the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the human potential improvement is, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the I in IDEAS. The ideas framework is the first part of the book. The five areas to flip your assumptions. The I stands for intelligence and we're talking about more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques. Things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And things like emotional AI, common sense AI, new techniques in addition to machine, the big data driven machine learning techniques, which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's just an example of how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >> I love the idea, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say we've been used to adapting to technology, and contorting our fingers to keyboards and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus, in fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >> I love the idea of flipping the script, flipping the assumptions, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, S for strategy. Notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution. Really interesting how you guys put that together. It feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and how it's going to be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think observing how developers becoming much more part of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation if you take it down to a conclusion and strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to lay out with the S in IDEAS, the strategy. The subtitle that chapter is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, that's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential role that technology plays and therefore they need to master technology. Well, you need to think about strategy differently then because of the pace of technology innovation. And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really important. It's about continuous strategy in all cases. An example is one of the techniques we talk about, forever beta, which is, think about a Tesla or companies that it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days as Paul was saying. >> It's interesting because that's the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation, but the human plays a much critical role. And just aside on the Tesla example, is well documented. I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three, Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off scripts and get to humans back in charge 'cause it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up to part two, which I like, which is this human piece of it. We always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that second half, trust, talent, experiences. That's more of the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group. Is talent the scarce resource now where that's the goal, that's the key 'cause it all could point to that in a way. Skills gap points to, hey, humans are valuable. In fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think that's something that is not, kind of nuanced point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say it, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book, really zooming in on talent. I think you might think that for every hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you might put 50 or 75 into re-skilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely going to need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means on talent, on getting the best talent, on re-skilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >> That's a huge point. >> And I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we talked about in the book are becoming a talent creator. We believe the successful companies of the future are going to be able not just to post a job opening and hire people in because there's not going to be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist 'cause the technology changing so fast. So the companies that succeed are going to know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such, and shape to tale as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're going to be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what employees want. And then democratizing access to technology. Things like Amazon's Honeycode is an example, low-code/no-code development to spread development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the human talent's important, but it's magnified and multiplied by the power of people, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new ways. >> I think you nailed it, that's super important. That point about the force multiplier when you put things in combination, whether it's group constructs, two pizza teams flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think groups and collectives you're going to start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're going to start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the metaverse play into this new radically human world, and what does it mean for the future of business? >> Yeah, I think the metaverse is radically misunderstood to use the word title when we're not with the title of our book. And we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse and the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I believe that it has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward. That's going to shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, infused with the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. So you have cloud, AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to generate experiences for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds, but trust becomes more important because just as AI raises new questions around trust, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five-part framework or five essential parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >> Yeah, we're seeing that about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their IT so they're focusing on security and privacy, transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems, explainability. One of the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we were doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI using that sense of humanity 'cause other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that AI system is learning from. Some really interesting innovations happening in that trust space. John. >> Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about. Because you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and we've been calling it supercloud, some call it multi-cloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's going to happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with chat and some video. It's group behavior, it's groups convening, talking, getting things done, debating, doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low-code/no-code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >> Yeah, no, I go back to one of the, the E in the IDEAS framework is expertise. And we talk about from machine learning to machine teaching, which is exactly that. Machine learning is maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with AI. One of the examples we give is one of the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to encode in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >> Well, yeah, it's interesting. I want to to get your thoughts as we get wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the the future. They got to start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table. We were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are new things you guys are hitting in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge certainly that is an opportunity. How do you apply all this stuff for business? >> I'll go first then Jim can add in. But the first thing I think starts with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right technology talent, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why the fact you're at re:Invent is so important because companies are, again, rebuilding that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that as the foundation to go forward, to do, to build the other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. Do you have the right talent brand? Are you attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward? And then you marry the two together and that's what gives you the radically human formula. >> Yeah. When we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of research, and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. One statistic is that 70% of companies that had never tried AI before went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies were not trying to do it themselves and to necessarily build an AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale, and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >> If you see the transformation of just AWS, we're here at re:Invent, since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been a thematic thing. It was startups, enterprise, now builders, and now change your company. This year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming categorical applications in for this new era. And we're calling it supercloud, superservices, superapps, 'cause they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools, or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and we've been talking about it a lot lately. So I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like what is radical? How can I put a pin in that? It's like take a temperature or we like radical enough, what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening? How do you know if you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to take advantage? >> Yeah, I think one. >> You can go ahead, Paul. >> Yeah, I was going to say one of the tests is the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business, and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. That's still something you need to do. But now our focus with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's the platform that you're using for your new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test whether you're being radical enough is on the one hand, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the two tests that I would give. >> Totally agree. >> Interesting enough, we love this topic and you guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs of big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like IDEAS, your framework, and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean you're building clouds on top of clouds or something's happening. I think you see it, look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >> Yeah and that's a good example. And it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows and the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great, again, that you're at re:Invent. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times 'cause we tell a lot of customer company stories about how they're leveraging AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in their business. And I think that's what it's all about. >> Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great 'cause it has the systems thinking, it's got really relevant information, but you guys have seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. We're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing all kinds of new things emerging. Thoughts on the global impact 'cause you take your book and you overlay that to business, like you got to operate all over the world as a human issue, as a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >> Well that's why you got to think about cloud as one technology. We talked about in the book and cloud is, I think a lot of people think, well, clouds, it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to re:Invent since 2013. Cloud is really just getting started. And it's 'cause the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability if you're in Europe. For many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities that you need to deploy differently in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid cloud capability that they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which comes into play in different ways. And so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in IDEAS is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and just modularity was the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the pace of technology advancement. >> Yeah, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is going to be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's going to be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on theCUBE as we break down your new book, "Radically Human" and how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at re:Invent. Thanks so much for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >> Thanks, John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. People who need to be relevant in the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those that need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we've mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds from the book are being donated to NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human change in technology that's happening. >> Great. Buy the book. Proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book. If you're in the middle of this big wave that's coming. this is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to reset, reflip the scripts, refactor, replatform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing. I really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John. Great discussion. >> You're watching theCUBE here covering the executive forum here at AWS re:Invent '22. I'm John Furrier, you're host with Accenture. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, friends. Welcome back to theCUBE's Live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022 in Sin City. We are so excited to be here with tens of thousands of people. This is our third day of coverage, really the second full day of the show, but we started Monday night. You're going to get wall-to-wall coverage on theCUBE. You probably know that because you've been watching. I'm Lisa Martin and I'm here with Paul Gill. Paul, this is great. We have had such great conversations. We've been talking a lot about data. Every company is a data company, has to be a data company. We've been talking about developers, the developer experience, and how that's so influential in business decisions for businesses in every industry. >> And it's a key element of what's going on here on the floor at re:Invent is developers, the theme of developers just permeates the show. Lots and lots of boots here devoted to DevOps and Agile approaches. And certainly that is one of the things that the Cloud enables is your team to rethink the way they develop software, and that's what we're going to talk about next. >> That is what we're going to talk about next. We have two guests from Split. split.io is the URL if you want to check it out. Chris Demars joins us Developer advocate. Chris, great to have you and PaaS, VP of Engineering guys thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Talk to us Pierre, we'll start with you. For the audience that might not know Split what does the company do? What's the value in it for customers? What are you all about? >> Sure. So in very simple terms, for those who are familiar, we do feature flags, feature management and experimentation. And essentially that two essential feature of the Agile transformation as you were mentioning and elements that really helps getting as much art we can from the team in term of productivity and in term of impact. And we basically help with those elements. And so that's a very short... >> 'Excellent, very nice. Chris, you were saying before we went live you do a lot of speaking at conferences, you're often in front of large audiences. As the developer advocate, what are some of the key requirements you're hearing from the developer community that organizations need to be encompassing? >> I think community is key. Like community is at the forefront of developer advocacy and developer relations. Like you want to go where the developers are and developers want to hear those stories in those personalized pieces of the puzzle. And when you're able to talk about modern Web and software technology and loop in product with that and still keep talking about those things and bring that to them, like that is on top of the list when it comes to developer advocacy and being embedded within the developer community. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Tell us about feature flags, because I would assume that for our viewers who are not developers, who are not familiar with Agile technologies, the Agile approaches that might be, may be a new term, what are feature flags? How do you use them? >> Sure, I can start with that. So feature flag is a tool that you embed in your code that allows you to control the activation of your code essentially. And that's allows you to really validate things in a much better and solve way and also attach measurement to it. So, when you're writing your new feature, you just put essentially an if statement around it, if my feature flag is on, then I actually do all those things with soft, then I don't do any of those things and then within our platform, then you can control the activation. Do you want to turn it on for yourself just to try it out? Do you want your QA team to start validating it? Do you want 5% of your users 10%? And start seeing how they interacting with the product. That's what feature flag is. >> It's an amazing piece of any part of the stack, right? 'Cause I'm a Web accessibility and an UI specialist and being able to control the UI with a feature flag and being able to turn on and off those features based on percentage, locale, all of those things. It's very, very powerful. >> What are some of the scenarios which you would use feature flags? You have been testing? >> Yeah, yeah. We actually, you can imagine we use it for pretty much everything. So, as Chris was saying, in the front-end, everything you want to change, you basically can validate and attach measurements. So you can do AB testing, so you can see the impact, you can see if there is a change in performance. We use it also for a lot of backend services and changes and a lot of even infrastructure changes where we can control the traffic and where it goes. So we can validate that things are operating the way that they should before we fully done the market I think. >> 'It can be as small as, you know having a checkout button here and then writing an AB test and running an experiment and moving that checkout button somewhere else because then you can get conversion rates and see which one performed better to a certain amount of people and whatever performed better, that's the feature you would go with. >> Chris, talk about the value of the impact in feature flags for the developer from a developer experience perspective, a productivity perspective. >> So I think that having that feature and being able to write that UI, let's say that you have a checkout button, right? And there's specific content there's verbiage on that checkout button. And then let's say that another team within the organization wants to change that because the conversion is different. You can make those changes, still have it in production and then have it tested. So you don't have to cut specific branches or like test URLs to give to QA, you can do all of that behind that flag. And then once everything is good to go, push it out there and then based on those metrics and that data, see which one performs better and then that's the one that you would go with. >> One of the things with feature flag and it goes to like our main theme of 'What a Release, What a Relief' is that it gives autonomy to the teams and to the developers, enable them to move independently from others. So the deployment can go but their code is not activated until they decide to. And so, they are not impeding anybody else. It makes releases a lot safer, a lot simpler and it gives a lot more speed to everybody because when you do releases with five teams, 10 teams, pushing the code at the same time, you have such a high-risk of breaking something that it's you know... So it's a huge effort and it requires a lot of attention from a lot of people. If anything happens, all those teams needs to investigate. When you decouple all those things, the deployments are essentially not doing anything per se until every individual team activate those things independently. So if anything goes wrong, only them are affected and they don't have to depend on anybody else to get their thing out. So it really helps them making their life a lot safer and gives them a lot more speed because they have autonomy. >> So, why come to re:Invent? What do you get with this audience that you don't get elsewhere? >> Why to re:Invent? I think like re:Invent in the Cloud and AWS is a lot about getting speed to companies to build better product and faster. And essentially like the tool we provide and the technology and the platform we provide is really at the heart of that in itself. And so that's why we feel we have really great conversation with all the people on the floor. >> 'the people who have the right mindset for adopting... >> For me, it's very much community and networking, I love developer community and just community in general is my lifeblood. That's why I travel so much and I talk about these things and I'm with people and if it's not about the products, the story and the story is what gets people. That's why I love being here and being with my team and it's amazing. >> And what is that story? If you had an elevator pitch to give, what would you tell me? >> Hoo, if you were in a late release or deploy at night. I've been there, I'm sure you've been there, it doesn't matter what you're doing. We don't want be up until two, three in the morning doing those things, right? Our product helps alleviate those stresses. And you talking about accessibility, what I do, you know, a big piece of that are hidden impairments like anxiety will stress and anxiety go hand in hand and you want to alleviate that all across the board for everybody involved. >> As you see organizations shift Agile technologies and to parallel development and continuous release cycles, what are some of the biggest barriers they encounter in changing that mindset? >> Ooh, what do you think? >> It depends on where they are in the organization. The Agile transformation is a journey and it's also a change of mindset, it's a change of process. So depending on where they are then they might have some areas where they need a little bit more effort in those directions. What we see is that feature flag just the control of the layout. It's usually something that's fairly easily adopted. Thinking about measurement and attaching measurement to it is often something that requires a little bit more thinking. Like engineers are not really used to thinking about AB testing. It feels like more of a product management thing but AB testing is important also for performance informations like errors and all those things. There is a lot of risk management to be done. We do that through monitoring with APMs, but with feature flag and with Split, you can do that at a feature level and it really gives a great insight. And that's usually something that takes a little bit more digestion from the developers to really get their mind around it and get to it. But there's a lot of value to it. >> I'm looking at the split I/O website and I like the tagline shorten time from code to customer. As customers in any industry, as consumers, we have this expectation that we can get whatever we want anytime 24 by 7 and it's going to be a relevant experience. So it sounds to me like from a speed perspective, there's a lot of business impact that Split can help organizations make from getting releases faster, getting cut faster time-to-market, delivering what customers expect because we all expect real-time these days. Nobody wants to wait. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think that has to do with the going back to the decoupling of things that, you know... Not having to go through so many teams to have it tested and getting away from all the meetings about meetings to review the metrics, right? We all love meetings about meetings. >> No. (laughs loudly) >> Right, exactly, exactly. So being able to take that away and being able to push all of that stuff into production, getting it tested while it's in production and then being able to turn those features on, it's already there without having to do another deployment. And I think, like that's really powerful to me at least. >> Does your solution have value at the security level as well? >> Yes. So that's one of the particularity on the way we do things is like the way you control the feature flag, you have kind of two ways of doing it. Either the piece of code, the SDKs that we provide, the library we provide, you that you put in your code could come back to our platform and check. The way we do it is we send the rules back to the SDK so the whole evaluation is local. The evaluation is extremely fast and it's very secure because it's all happening within your environment. You never have to share any information, no PI whatsoever, contrary it to some of the other tools that you might find on the market. >> So the theme of the booth is 'What a Release, What a Relief'. What are some of the things that you're hearing as you're engaging folks on the show floor this week? >> Oh, what is Aura Photography and can I take a picture of. (everyone laughs loudly) I think just a lot of the stresses of... They're like the release cycle and you know, having to go through so many teams. I feel like that's a common theme that I've heard of. >> Yeah, we see a number of teams organization that still have like really big deployments with like a lot of teams basically coming together, pushing the code together, and there's a lot of pain in it. It's like, it's a huge effort by huge teams. You get 10, 20 people that have to have watch over it at always weird hours, and I think there is a lot of pain to that and that resonate a lot with people. And when we talk about monitoring at the future level, that also helps a lot. Like I was part of organizations before where we had a dedicated staff engineer to just monitor and fix performance on a daily basis because it's such a huge problem and it affects so much the performance of the company. And so essentially, you have this person that tries to look at is a performance being degraded today with the deployment of yesterday and what went out yesterday and you have so many things that went out. It's so hard to control. With what we provide, we tell you exactly which feature flag is responsible for the degradation. And so, you don't need that person to focus on that anymore. And you can focus on delivering value a lot better. >> I think it also might take away the need for extensive release notebooks and playbooks, right? 'Cause when you do bring all those teams together, it's certain people that are in that meeting and there's a PDF saying, all right, we check this off the list, we check this off the list. I think that might alleviate some of that overhead as well. >> Streamlining processes, process efficiencies, workforce productivity improvements, big impact. >> And that gets code quicker to the user. >> You talk about decoupling deploy from release. What do you mean by that? What's the value? >> So the deployment in my definition is essentially getting the code out to production. The release is activating the code in production. And often people do both of those things at the same time, right? But there's a huge risk when you do that because if anything goes wrong, now you need to revert everything which is not a short operation often and takes a lot of effort. And so now, if you can basically push your code to production but separate the activation of it, the release of it, then it goes a lot faster. It's a lot. You have a lot of autonomy and decoupling and if anything goes wrong, it's the click of a button and it's off. So like there's a lot of safety that comes with it and we know that any outages as a high cost for all the companies. So it's like, if you can reduce the outage to like five seconds... >> Right. >> It's a lot better than basically several hours. >> Can you talk about the value out of Split versus DIY and where are most of your customers in this process? Do they have a bunch of tools, a bunch of processes, a bunch of teams, and you're really helping them consolidate streamline? >> The one thing I hear a lot is we rolled our own AB testing and feature flagging system, but some of the issues I've seen and I've heard are that they don't have all those metrics or they have to work with a specific data team to get those metrics. And then you go back to having those meetings about meetings... >> Lisa: Dependencies. >> Right, you have a data team that's putting together a report that is then presented to you and then that's got to be presented to a stakeholder and then that stakeholder makes a decision whether to turn on feature A or feature B, right? Our product from my understanding is we have those metrics already built in and you can have that at your disposal. >> Yeah, the other thing I would add to that is like we see a number of people, they start on the feature flag journey just because they have a high risk thing that they need to put out. So they do the minimal thing to basically control it somehow, but it works only in one part of the stacks. They can't basically leverage it anywhere else and it's very limited in capability so that it just serve the purpose that was needed at that time. They don't have a dedicated team to manage it. So it just there, but it's very constrained and it's not supported effectively. The other thing is like for those companies is like they have a question to ask themselves. It's like do they want to invest resources in managing that kind of tool or is it not so core to their business that they want essentially to have vendor deal with it at a much lower price and they would have to invest resources for them to support it, and... >> Sounds like feature flags are kind of a team building. Have you have a team building dimension to them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It takes a team for sure. >> Yeah, and then once you add like AB testing and the feature flag, it's the collaboration between product management and engineering. It can go even further. Like two executives like to basically, you know, view the impact, understand the impact. So it goes from the control to the risk management to the product and to the impact and measuring the flow of delivery and the communication around it. >> Here we are at re:Invent, so many thousands of people as I mentioned, we're on the second full-day of the event. What have you heard from AWS that really excites you about being in their ecosystem? Any news in particular that jumps out at you that really speaks to improving that developer experience as if we've heard a lot of focus on the developer? >> Chris: Yeah, I haven't heard much, have you? >> So, I arrived yesterday, I haven't followed yet all the announcement, I'm just like, >> there's so many- >> on the news, yeah, yeah. >> So I'm on the booth at the same time. >> I stopped counting at 15 during the Keynote this morning. >> Many of them just can't keep up, there's so much happening at one time's so much. >> This event is a can of content, can of news re:Invent. It is hard. But yesterday they were spent so much time talking about data and how... And I always think every company today has to be a data company, have to be a software company, we were just talking with Capital One and they think of themselves as a technology company that does banking. And sometimes, I'll talk with retailers that think of themselves as technology companies that do retail and they love that but that's what companies like Split have to enable these days. It's companies to become technology companies, deliver code faster to customer because the customer's demanding it. We're not going to want less stuff slower. >> Yeah, I mean it's so essential I think for me like I joined Split because of that premises. Like every company now is a software company and every company has really to compete in innovation. You know all those banks, Capital One like we see it a lot in the financial industry where our message resonates extremely strongly is really in a high-competitive environment and they have to be innovative and innovation comes when people have speed and autonomy. And if you basically provide that to teams and the tools to basically get some signals and some quick feedback loop, that's how you get innovation. Like you can't decide what to build but you can basically provide the tools to enable them to think about. >> Right, you can experiment more flexibly right, faster. >> And developers have to be empowered, right? >> Yes. >> I think that's the probably one of the number one messages I've heard at all the shows we've done this year. How influential the developer is in the direction of the business. >> Autonomy and empowerment are two main factors 'cause I'm a front end developer at heart and I want to work on cool stuff and we're doing cool stuff. Like we are doing cool stuff. We can't talk about all of it, right? But I think we're doing a lot of cool things at Split and I'm really stoked to be a part of the team and grow developer relations, grow developer advocacy and be along for the journey. >> Yeah, I love that. Last question for both of you, same question. If you had a bumper sticker and you were going to put it on a fancy shiny new car, car of your choice about Split, what would it say? Pierre I'll start with you then Chris. >> Bumper sticker. >> On the spot question. >> On the question, (everyone laughs happily) I mean the easy answer is probably written on my t-shirt. Like, you know, 'What a Release, What a Relief'. I think that the first step for teams is like, you can have a message that's very like even further, you know, the Agile transformation is a journey and I basically tell people, you need to first crawl, walk and run and I think the 'What a Release, What a Relief' is a good step to like getting to the working. And I think like that would be the first bumper sticker before I get to the further one about AP testing and innovative. >> Love it. Chris, what would your bumper sticker say? >> It would say Split software, feature flags for the masses. Hard stop. >> Mic drop. >> Done. >> Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining Paul and me on the program. It's been outstanding introducing Split to our audience, what you do, how you're impacting the developer experience and ultimately, the business and the end customer on the backend who just wants things to work. We appreciate your insights, we appreciate your time. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Appreciate it. >> Our pleasure. For our guests and Paul Gillin, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, which you know is the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

foreign welcome to thecube's coverage of AWS re invent 2022. this is a part of our AWS executive Summit AT AWS re invent sponsored by Accenture I'm your host Lisa Martin I've got three guests here with me Christoph schulteis head of devops and infrastructure at Vodafone Germany joins us as well as IMAP baldasare the Accenture AWS business group Europe delivery lead attic Center and Philip schmuckel senior manager at Accenture technology we're going to be talking about what Vodafone Germany is doing in terms of its agile transformation the business and I.T gentlemen it's great to have you on thecube Welcome to the program thank you thanks for having us my pleasure Kristoff let's go ahead and start with you talk to us about what Vodafone Germany is doing in its transformation project with Accenture and with AWS certainly these are but let me first start with explaining what Vodafone does in general so Vodafone is one of the leading telephone and Technology service providers in Germany half of all German citizens are Vodafone customers using Vodafone technology to access the internet make calls and watch TV in the economic sector we provide connectivity for office farms and factories so this is vodafone's largest business and I.T transformation and we're happy to have several Partners on this journey with more than a thousand people working in scaled agile framework with eight Agile Release strings and one of the largest safe implementations in Europe why are we doing this transformation well not only since the recent uncertainties the Telco Market is highly volatile and there are a few challenges that Vodafone was facing in the last years as there are Market changes caused by disruptions from technological advances in competitors or changing customer customer expectations who for example use more of the top services like Netflix or Amazon Prime video what is coming up in the next wave is unknown so Technologies evolve continual disruption from non-tel causes to be expected and being able to innovate fast is the key Focus for everyone in order to be able to react to that we need to cope with that and do so in different aspects to become the leading digital technology company therefore Vodafone Germany is highly simplifying its products as well as processes for example introducing free product upgrades for customers we're driving the change from a business perspective and modernize the it landscape which we call the technology transformation so simply business-led but it driven for that Accenture is our integration partner and AWS provides the services for our platforms got it thank you for the background on the Vodafone the impact that it's making you mentioned the volatility in the Telecom market and also setting the context for what Vodafone Germany is doing with Accenture and AWS email I want to bring you into the conversation now talk to us about the partnership between Accenture and Vodafone in AWS and how is it set up to provide maximum value for customers yeah that's a great question actually well I mean working in Partnership allows obviously to bring in transparency and trust and these are key starting points for a program of this magnitude and a program like this comes out of strong willingness to change the game both internally and on the market so as you can imagine particular attention is required that's top level alignment in general when you implement a program like this you also need to couple the long-term vision of how you want to manage your customers what are the new products that you want to bring to the market with the long-term technology roadmap because the thing that you don't want to happen is that you invest many years and a lot of efforts and then when it comes the end of the journey you figure out that you have to restart a New Journey and then you enter in the NeverEnding Loop so obviously all these things must come together and they come together in what we call the power of three and it consists in AWS Vodafone and Accenture having a strategic Vision alignment and constant updates and most importantly the best of breed in terms of technology and also people so what we do in practice is uh we bring together Market understanding business Vision technical expertise energy collaboration and what is even more important we work as a unique team everybody succeeds here and this is a true win-win partnership more specifically Vodafone leads the Strategic Direction obviously they understand the market they are close to their customers AWS provides all the expertise around the cloud infrastructure insights on the roadmap and this is a key element elasticity both technical but also Financial and the then Accenture comes with its ability to deliver with the strong industry expertise flexibility and when you combine all these ingredients together obviously you understand it's easy to succeed together the power of three it sounds quite compelling it sounds like a very partnership that has a lot of flexibility elasticity as you mentioned and obviously the customer at the end of the day benefits tremendously from that Kristoff I'd like to bring you back into the conversation talk to us about the unified unified platform approach how is walk us through how Vodafone is implementing it with AWS and with Accenture so the applications that form the basis for the transformation program were originally pursuing all kinds of approaches for deployment and use of AWS services in order to support faster adoption and optimize the usage that I mentioned before and we have provided the Vodafone Cloud framework that has been The Trusted platform for several projects within the it in Germany as a side effect the framework facilitates the compliance with Vodafone security requirements and the unified approach also has the benefit that someone who is moving from one team to another will find a structure that looks familiar the best part of the framework though is the operative rights deployment process that helps us reducing the time from implementing for example a new stage from a few weeks to me hours and that together with improvements of the cicd pipeline greatly helped us reducing the time to speed up something and deploy the software on it in order to reach our Target kpis the unified platform provides all kinds of setups like AWS eks and the ecosystem that is commonly used with coping dentists like service mesh monitoring logging and tracing but it can also be used for non-continental erased applications that we have and provide the integration with security monitoring and other tools at the moment we are in contact with other markets of Vodafone to globally share our experience in our code which makes introducing a similar system into other markets straightforward we are also continuously improving our approach and the completely new version of the framework is currently being introduced into the program Germany is doing is really kind of setting the stage as you mentioned Christopher other parts of the business who want to learn from so that's a great thing there that that what you're building is really going to spread throughout the organization and make a positive impact Philip let's bring you into the conversation now let's talk about how you're using AWS specifically to build the new Vodafone Cloud integration platform talk to us about that as part of this overall transformation program sure and let's make it even more specific let's talk API management so looking at the program and from a technology point of view what it really is it is a bold step for Vodafone it's rebuilding huge parts of the infrastructure of their business ID infrastructure on AWS it's Greenfield it's new it's a bold step I would say and then if you put the perspective of API management or integration architecture what I call it it's a unique opportunity at the same time so what it what it gives you is the the opportunity to build the API management layer or an API platform with standardized apis right from the get-go so from the beginning you can build the API platform on top which is in contrast what we see throughout the industry where we see huge problems at our clients at other engagements that try to build these layers as well but they're building them on Legacy so that really makes it unique here for Vodafone and a unique opportunity to we have this API first platform built as part of the transformation program so what we have been built is exactly this platform and as of today there is more than 50 standardized apis throughout the application landscape already available to give you a few examples there is an API where I can change customer data for instance I can change the payment method of a customer straight from an API or I can reboot a customer equipment right from it from an API to fix a network issue other than that of course I can submit an order to order one of vodafone's gigabit internet offerings so on top of the platform there's a developer portal which gives me the option to explore all of the apis yeah in a convenient way in a portal and that's yeah that's developer experience meaning I can log into this portal look through the apis understand what I what I need and just try it out directly from the portal I see the response of an API live in the portal and this is it is really in contrast to what what we've seen before where you would have a long word document a cumbersome spreadsheet a long lasting process to get your hands on and this really gives you the opportunity to just go in try out an API and see how it works so it's really developer experience and a big step forward here then yeah how have we built this platform of course it's running on AWS it's Cloud native it's using eks but what I want to point out here is three principles that that we applied where the first one is of course the cloud native principle meaning we using AKs we are using containers we have infrastructure scales so we aim for every component being Cloud native being meant to be run in the cloud so our infrastructure will sleep at night to save Vodafone cost and it will wake up for the Christmas business where Vodafone intends to do the biggest business and scale of its platform second there is the uh the aim for open API specifications what we aim for is event non-vendor-specific apis so it should not matter whether there's an mdocs backend there's a net tracker back end or an sap Behind These apis it is really meant to decouple the different Business Systems of of a Vodafone by these apis that can be applied by a new custom front-end or by a new business to business application to integrate these apis last but not least there's the automate everything so there's infrastructure as code all around our platform where where I would say the biggest magic of cloud is if we were to lose our production environment lose all apis today it will take us just a few minutes to get everything back and whatever everything I mean redeploy the platform redeploy all apis all services do the configuration again and it will be back in a few minutes that's impressive as downtime is so costly for so many different reasons I think we're gonna know when the vision of this transformation project when it's been achieved how are you going to know that okay so it's kind of flipping the perspective a bit uh maybe uh when I joined Vodafone in in late 2019 I would say the vision for Vodafone was already set and it was really well well put out there it was lived in in the organization it was for Vodafone to become a digital company to become a digital service provider to to get the engineering culture into the company and I would say this Vision has not changed until today maybe now call it a North star and maybe pointing out two big Milestones that have been achieved with this transformation program so we've talked about the safe framework already so with this program we wrote out the one of the biggest safe implementations in the industry which is a big step for Vodafone in its agile Journey as of today there's the safe framework supporting more than 1 000 FTE or 1000 colleagues working and providing value in the transformation program second example or second big milestone was the first go-life of the program so moving stuff to production really proving it works showcasing to the business that it it is actually working there is actually a value provided or constant value provided with a platform and then of course you're asking for next steps right uh talking next steps there is a renewed focus on value and A Renewed focus on value between Accenture and Vodafone means focus on what really provides the most value to Vodafone and I would like to point out two things here the first being migrate more customers scale the platform really prove the the the the the cloud native platform by migrating more customers to it and then second it enables you to decommission the Legacy Stacks decommissioning Legacy Stacks is why we are doing it right so it's migrating to the new migrating to the new platform so last but not least maybe you can hear it we will continue this journey together with with Vodafone to become a digital company or to say that their own words from Telco to TECO I love that from Telco to technology gentlemen thank you so much for joining us on thecube today talking about the power of three Accenture AWS Vodafone how you're really enabling Vodafone to transform into that digital technology company that consumers at the end of the day that demanding consumers want we appreciate your insights and your time thank you so much thank you for having us my pleasure for my guests I'm Lisa Martin you're watching thecube's coverage of the AWS executive Summit AT AWS re invent sponsored by Accenture thanks for watching

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, fellow cloud nerds, and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent, here in a fabulous Sin City, Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by my fabulous co-host, John Furrier. John, how you feeling? >> Great, feeling good Just getting going. Day one of four more, three more days after today. >> Woo! Yeah. >> So much conversation. Talking about business transformation as cloud goes next level- >> Hot topic here for sure. >> Next generation. Data's classic is still around, but the next gen cloud's here, it's changing the game. Lot more AI, machine learning, a lot more business value. I think it's going to be exciting. Next segment's going to be awesome. >> It feels like one of those years where there's just a ton of momentum. I don't think it's just because we're back in person at scale, you can see the literally thousands of people behind us while we're here on set conducting these interviews. Our bold and brave guests, just like the two we have here, combating the noise, the libations, and everything else going on on the show floor. Please help me welcome Mike from Science Logic and Ajay from Zebrium. Gentlemen, welcome to the show floor. >> Thank you. >> Thank you Savannah. It's great to be here. >> How you feeling? Are you feeling the buzz, Mike? Feeling the energy? >> It's tough to not feel and hear the buzz, Savannah >> Savannah: Yeah. (all laughing) >> John: Can you hear me? >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you hear me now? What about you, Ajay? How's it feel to be here? >> Yeah, this is high energy. I'm really happy it's bounced back from COVID. I was a little concerned about attendance. This is hopping. >> Yeah, I feel it. It just, you can definitely feel the energy, the sense of community. We're all here for the right reasons. So I know that, I want to set the stage for everyone watching, Zebrium was recently acquired by Science Logic. Mike, can you tell us a little bit about that and what it means for the company? >> Mike: Sure, sure. Well, first of all, science logic, as you may know, has been in the monitoring space for a long time now, and what- >> Savannah: 20 years I believe. >> Yeah. >> Savannah: Just about. >> And what we've seen is a shift from kind of monitoring infrastructure, to monitoring these increasingly complex modern cloud native applications, right? And so this is part of a journey that we've been on at Science Logic to really modernize how enterprises of all sizes manage their IT estate. Okay? So, managing, now workloads that are increasingly in the public cloud, outside the four walls of the enterprise, workloads that are increasingly complex. They're microservices based, they're container based. >> Mhmm. >> Mike: And the rate of change, just because of things like CICD, and agile development has also increased the complexity in the typical IT environment. So all these things have conspired to make the traditional tools and processes of managing IT and IT applications much more difficult. They just don't scale. One of the things that we've seen recently, Savannah is this shift in sort of moving to cloud native applications, right? >> Huge shift. >> Mike: Today it only incorporates about roughly 25% of the typical IT portfolio, but most of the projections we've seen indicate that that's going to invert in about three years. 75% of applications will be what I call cloud native. And so this really requires different technologies to understand what's going on with those applications. And so Zebrium interested us when we were looking at partners at the beginning of this year as they have a super innovative approach to understanding really what's going on with any cloud native application. And they really distill, they separate the complexity out of the equation and they used machine learning to tremendous effect to rapidly understand the root cause of an application failure. And so I was introduced to Ajay, beginning of this year, actually. It feels like it's been a long time now. But we've been on this journey together throughout 2022, and we're thrilled to have Zebrium now, part of the Science Logic family. >> Ajay, Zebrium saves people a lot of time. Obviously, I've worked with developers and seen that struggle when things break, shortening that time to recovery and understanding is so critical. Can you tell us a little bit about what's under the hood and how the ML works to make that happen? >> Ajay: Yeah. So the goal is to figure out not just that something went wrong, but what went wrong. >> Savannah: Right. >> And we took, you know, based on a couple of decades of experience from my co-founders- >> Savannah: Casual couple of decades, came into went into this product just to call that out. Yeah, great. >> Exactly. It took some general learnings about the nature of software and when software breaks, what tends to happen, you tend to see unusual things happen, and they lead to bad things happening. It's very simple. >> Yes. >> It turns out- >> Savannah: Mutations lead to bad things happening, generally speaking. >> So what Zebrium's really good at is identifying those rare things accurately and then figuring out how they connect, or correlate to the bad things, the errors, the warnings, the alerts. So the machine learning has many stages to it, but at its heart it's classifying the event, catalog of any application stack, figuring out what's rare, and when things start to break it's telling you this cluster of events is both unusual, and unlikely to be random, and it's very likely the root cause report for the problem you're trying to solve. We then added some nice enhancements, such as correlation with knowledge spaces in, on the public internet. If someone's ever solved that problem before, we're able to find a match, and pull that back into our platform. But the at the heart, it was a technology that can find rare events and find the connections with other events. >> John: Yeah, and this is the theme of re:Invent this year, data, the role of data, solving end-to-end complexities. One, you mentioned that. Two, I think the Mike, your point about developers and the CICD pipeline is where DevOps is. That is what IT now is. So, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, or its path and continue it, IT is DevOps. So the developers are actually doing the IT in their coding, hence the shift to autonomous IT. >> Mike: Right, right. Now, those other functions at IT used to be a department, not anymore, or they still are, so, but they'll go away, is security and data teams. You're starting to see the formation of- >> Mike: Yep. >> New replacements to IT as a function to support the developers who are building the applications that will be the company. >> That's right. Yeah. >> John: I mean that's, and do you agree with that statement? >> Yeah, I really do. And you know, collectively independent of whether it's like traditional IT, or it's DevOps, or whatever it is, the enterprise as a whole needs to understand how the infrastructure is deployed, the health of that infrastructure, and more importantly the applications that are hosted in the infrastructure. How are they doing? What's the health? And what we are seeing, and what we're trying to facilitate at Science Logic is really changed the lens of IT, from being low level compute, storage, and networking, to looking at everything through a services lens, looking at the services being delivered by IT, back to the business, and understanding things through a services lens. And Zebrium really compliments that mission that we've been on, by providing, cause a lot of cases, service equal equal application, and they can provide that kind of very real time view of service health in, you know, kind of the IT- >> And automation is beautiful there too, because, as you get into some of the scale- >> Yeah >> Ajay's. understanding how to do this fast is a key component. >> Yeah. So scale, you, you've pinpointed one of the dimensions that makes AI really important when it comes to troubleshooting. The humans just can't scale as fast as data, nor can they keep up with complexity of modern applications. And the third element that we feel is really important is the velocity with which people are now rolling out changes. People develop new features within hours, push them out to production. And in a world like that, the human has just no ability or time to understand what's normal, what's bad, to update their alert rules. And you need a machine, or an AI technology, to go help you with that. And that's basically what we're about. >> So this is where AI Ops comes in, right? Perfectly. Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, and John started to allude to it earlier, but having the insight on what's going on, we believe is only half of the equation, right? Once you understand what's going on, you naturally want to take action to remediate it or optimize it. And we believe automation should not be an exercise that's left to the reader. >> Yeah. >> As a lot of traditional platforms have done. Instead, we have a very robust, no-code, low-code automation built into our platform that allows you to take action in context with what you're seeing right then and there with the service. >> John: Yeah. Essentially monitoring, a term you use observability, some used as a fancy word today, is critical in all operating environments. So if we, if we kind of holistically, hey we're a distributed computing system, aka cloud, you got to track stuff at scale and you got to understand what it, what the impact is from a systems perspective. There's consequences to understanding what goes wrong. So as you look at that, what's the challenge for customers to do that? Because that seems to be the hard part as they lift and shift to the cloud, run their apps on the cloud, now they got to go take it to the next level, which is more developer velocity, faster productivity, and secure. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that seems to be the table stakes now. >> Yeah. >> How are companies forming around that? Are they there yet? Are they halfway there? Are they, where are they in the progression of, one, are they changing? And if so- >> Yeah that's a great question. I mean, I think whether it's an IT use case or a security use case, you can't manage what you don't know about. So visibility, discoverability, understanding what's going on, in a lot of ways that's the really hard problem to solve. And traditionally, we've approached that by like, harvesting data off of all these machines and devices in the infrastructure. But as we've seen with Zebrium and with related machine learning technologies, there's multiple ways of gaining insight as to what's going on. Once you have the insight be it an IT issue, like a service outage, or a security vulnerability, then you can take action. And the idea is you want to make that action as seamless as possible. But I think to answer your question, John, enterprises are still kind of getting their heads around how can we break down all the silos that have built up over the last decade or two, internally, and get visibility across the estate that really matters. And I think that's the real challenge. >> And I mean, and, at the velocity that applications are growing, just looking at our notes here, number of applications scaling from 64 million in 2017 to 147 million in 2021. That goes to what you were talking about, even with those other metrics earlier, 582 million by 2026 is what Morgan Stanley predicts. So, not only do we need to get out of silos we need to be able to see everything all the time, all at once, from the past legacy, as well as as we extend at scale. How are you thinking about that, Ajay? You're now with a big partner as an umbrella. What's next for you all? How, how are you going to help people solve problems faster? >> Yeah, so one of the attractions to the Zebrium team about Science Logic, aside from the team, and the culture, was the product portfolio was so complimentary. As Mike mentioned, you need visibility, you need mapping from low level building blocks to business services. And the end, at the end of the spectrum, once you know something's wrong you need to be able to take action automatically. And again, Science Logic has a very strong product, set of product capabilities and automated actions. What we bring to the table is the middle layer, which is from visibility, understanding what went wrong, figuring out the root cause. So to us, it was really exciting to be a very nice tuck in into this broader platform where we helped complete the story. >> Savannah: Yeah, that's, that's exciting. >> John: Should we do the Insta challenge? >> I was just getting ready to do that. You go for it John. You go ahead and kick it off. >> So we have this little tradition now, Instagram real, short and sweet. If you were going to see yourself on Instagram, what would be the Instagram reel of why this year's re:Invent is so important, and why people should pay attention to what's going on right now in the industry, or your company? >> Well, I think partly what Ajay was saying it's good to be back, right? So seeing just the energy and being back in 3D, you know en mass, is awesome again. It really is. >> Yeah. >> Mike: But, you know, I think this is where it's happening. We are at an inflection point of our industry and we're seeing a sea change in the way that applications and software delivered to businesses, to enterprises. And it's happening right here. This is the nexus of it. And so we're thrilled to be here as a part of all this, and excited about the future. >> All right, Ajay- >> Well done. He passes >> Your Instagram reel. >> Knowing what's happening in the broader economy, in the business context, it's, it feels even more important that companies like us are working on technologies that empower the same number of people to do more. Because it may not be realistic to just add on more headcount given what's going on in the world. But your deliverables and your roadmaps aren't slowing down. So, still the same amount of complexity, the same growth rates, but you're going to have to deal with all of that with fewer resources and be smarter about it. So, the approaches we're taking feel very much off the moment, you know, given what's going on in the real world. >> I love it. I love it. I've got, I've got kind of a finger to the wind, potentially hardball question for you here to close it out. But, given that you both have your finger really on the pulse right here, what percentage of current IT operations do you think will eventually be automated by AI and ML? Or AI ops? >> Well, I think a large percentage of traditional IT operations, and I'm talking about, you know, network operating center type of, you know, checking heartbeat monitors of compute storage and networking health. I think a lot of those things are going to be automated, right? Machine learning, just because of the scale. You can't scale, you can't hire enough NOC engineers to scale that kind of complexity. But I think IT talents, and what they're going to be focusing on is going shift, and they're going to be focusing on different parts. And I believe a lot of IT is going to be a much more of an enabler for the business, versus just managing things when they go wrong. So that's- >> All right. >> That's what I believe is part of the change. >> That's your, all right Ajay what about your hot take? >> Knowing how error-prone predictions are, (all laughing) I'll caveat my with- >> Savannah: We're allowing for human error here. >> I could be wildly wrong, but if I had to guess, you know, in 10 years you know, as much as 50% of the tasks will be automated. >> Mike: Oh, you- >> I love it. >> Mike: You threw a number out there. >> I love it. I love that he put his finger out- >> You got to see, you got to say the matrix. We're all going to be part of the matrix. >> Well, you know- >> And Star Trek- >> Skynet >> We can only turn back to this footage in a few years and quote you exactly when you have the, you know Mackenzie Research or the Morgan Stanley research that we've been mentioning here tonight and say that you've called it accurately. So I appreciate that. Ajay, it was wonderful to have you here. Congratulations on the acquisition. Thank you. Mike, thank you so much for being here on the Science Logic side, and congratulations to the team on 20 years. That's very exciting. John. Thank you. >> I try, I tried. Thank you. >> You try, you succeed. And thank you to all of our fabulous viewers out there at home. Be sure and tweet us at theCUBE. Say hello, Furrier, Sav is savvy. Let us know what you're thinking of AWS re:Invent where we are live from Las Vegas all week. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. My name's Savannah Peterson, and we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage here at AWS re:Invent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is going to be the topic. Paul Daugherty, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, Global Managing Director of Thought Leadership and Technology Research, Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE for this conversation around your new hit book, "Radically Human." >> Thanks, John. It's great to be with you and great to be present at re:Invent. >> We've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolution is going on now where things have consequences and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as as humans. And so I love the book, very, very strong content, really right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations, but I noticed you got the structure, part one and part two, this book seems to be packing a big punch. What was the motivation, and what was some of the background in putting the book together? >> That's a great question, John. And I'll start, and then, Jim, my co-author and colleague and partner on the book can join in too. If you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called "Human + Machine", which focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the human plus machine pairing. And then when we started working on the next book, it was the COVID era. COVID came on line as we were writing the book. And that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing. Once COVID hit, every company became more dependent on technology. Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies, and what was different from the first research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that pre-pandemic, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of 2x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic, we redid the research and the gap widened into 5x. And I think that's played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around inflation, energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in "Radically Human." And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud, data and AI, and the metaverse that signal out as three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. In the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are going to set companies apart as they look to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >> Jim, weigh in on this flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. >> You used a really important word there and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as a point solution. They don't think about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that. All right, if you're going to build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate it using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability? >> I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you set the table. It's like, 'cause people right now are like in the mode of what's going on around me? I've been living through three years of COVID. We're coming out the other side. The world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home. Like, here's the current situation and then part two is here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or society. >> Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where "Radically Human", the title came from. And what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot. And the whole hypothesis or premise of the book I should say, is that the more human like the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the human potential improvement is, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the I in IDEAS. The ideas framework is the first part of the book. The five areas to flip your assumptions. The I stands for intelligence and we're talking about more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques. Things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And things like emotional AI, common sense AI, new techniques in addition to machine, the big data driven machine learning techniques, which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's just an example of how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >> I love the idea, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say we've been used to adapting to technology, and contorting our fingers to keyboards and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus, in fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >> I love the idea of flipping the script, flipping the assumptions, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, S for strategy. Notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution. Really interesting how you guys put that together. It feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and how it's going to be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think observing how developers becoming much more part of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation if you take it down to a conclusion and strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to lay out with the S in IDEAS, the strategy. The subtitle that chapter is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, that's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential role that technology plays and therefore they need to master technology. Well, you need to think about strategy differently then because of the pace of technology innovation. And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really important. It's about continuous strategy in all cases. An example is one of the techniques we talk about, forever beta, which is, think about a Tesla or companies that it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days as Paul was saying. >> It's interesting because that's the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation, but the human plays a much critical role. And just aside on the Tesla example, is well documented. I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three, Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off scripts and get to humans back in charge 'cause it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up to part two, which I like, which is this human piece of it. We always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that second half, trust, talent, experiences. That's more of the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group. Is talent the scarce resource now where that's the goal, that's the key 'cause it all could point to that in a way. Skills gap points to, hey, humans are valuable. In fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think that's something that is not, kind of nuanced point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say it, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book, really zooming in on talent. I think you might think that for every hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you might put 50 or 75 into re-skilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely going to need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means on talent, on getting the best talent, on re-skilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >> That's a huge point. >> And I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we talked about in the book are becoming a talent creator. We believe the successful companies of the future are going to be able not just to post a job opening and hire people in because there's not going to be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist 'cause the technology changing so fast. So the companies that succeed are going to know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such, and shape to tale as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're going to be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what employees want. And then democratizing access to technology. Things like Amazon's Honeycode is an example, low-code/no-code development to spread development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the human talent's important, but it's magnified and multiplied by the power of people, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new ways. >> I think you nailed it, that's super important. That point about the force multiplier when you put things in combination, whether it's group constructs, two pizza teams flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think groups and collectives you're going to start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're going to start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the metaverse play into this new radically human world, and what does it mean for the future of business? >> Yeah, I think the metaverse is radically misunderstood to use the word title when we're not with the title of our book. And we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse and the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I believe that it has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward. That's going to shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, infused with the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. So you have cloud, AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to generate experiences for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds, but trust becomes more important because just as AI raises new questions around trust, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five-part framework or five essential parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >> Yeah, we're seeing that about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their IT so they're focusing on security and privacy, transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems, explainability. One of the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we were doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI using that sense of humanity 'cause other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that AI system is learning from. Some really interesting innovations happening in that trust space. John. >> Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about. Because you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and we've been calling it supercloud, some call it multi-cloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's going to happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with chat and some video. It's group behavior, it's groups convening, talking, getting things done, debating, doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low-code/no-code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >> Yeah, no, I go back to one of the, the E in the IDEAS framework is expertise. And we talk about from machine learning to machine teaching, which is exactly that. Machine learning is maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with AI. One of the examples we give is one of the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to encode in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >> Well, yeah, it's interesting. I want to to get your thoughts as we get wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the the future. They got to start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table. We were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are new things you guys are hitting in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge certainly that is an opportunity. How do you apply all this stuff for business? >> I'll go first then Jim can add in. But the first thing I think starts with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right technology talent, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why the fact you're at re:Invent is so important because companies are, again, rebuilding that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that as the foundation to go forward, to do, to build the other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. Do you have the right talent brand? Are you attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward? And then you marry the two together and that's what gives you the radically human formula. >> Yeah. When we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of research, and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. One statistic is that 70% of companies that had never tried AI before went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies were not trying to do it themselves and to necessarily build an AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale, and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >> If you see the transformation of just AWS, we're here at re:Invent, since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been a thematic thing. It was startups, enterprise, now builders, and now change your company. This year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming categorical applications in for this new era. And we're calling it supercloud, superservices, superapps, 'cause they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools, or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and we've been talking about it a lot lately. So I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like what is radical? How can I put a pin in that? It's like take a temperature or we like radical enough, what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening? How do you know if you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to take advantage? >> Yeah, I think one. >> You can go ahead, Paul. >> Yeah, I was going to say one of the tests is the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business, and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. That's still something you need to do. But now our focus with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's the platform that you're using for your new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test whether you're being radical enough is on the one hand, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the two tests that I would give. >> Totally agree. >> Interesting enough, we love this topic and you guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs of big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like IDEAS, your framework, and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean you're building clouds on top of clouds or something's happening. I think you see it, look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >> Yeah and that's a good example. And it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows and the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great, again, that you're at re:Invent. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times 'cause we tell a lot of customer company stories about how they're leveraging AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in their business. And I think that's what it's all about. >> Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great 'cause it has the systems thinking, it's got really relevant information, but you guys have seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. We're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing all kinds of new things emerging. Thoughts on the global impact 'cause you take your book and you overlay that to business, like you got to operate all over the world as a human issue, as a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >> Well that's why you got to think about cloud as one technology. We talked about in the book and cloud is, I think a lot of people think, well, clouds, it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to re:Invent since 2013. Cloud is really just getting started. And it's 'cause the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability if you're in Europe. For many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities that you need to deploy differently in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid cloud capability that they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which comes into play in different ways. And so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in IDEAS is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and just modularity was the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the pace of technology advancement. >> Yeah, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is going to be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's going to be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on theCUBE as we break down your new book, "Radically Human" and how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at re:Invent. Thanks so much for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >> Thanks, John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. People who need to be relevant in the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those that need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we've mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds from the book are being donated to NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human change in technology that's happening. >> Great. Buy the book. Proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book. If you're in the middle of this big wave that's coming. this is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to reset, reflip the scripts, refactor, replatform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing. I really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John. Great discussion. >> You're watching theCUBE here covering the executive forum here at AWS re:Invent '22. I'm John Furrier, you're host with Accenture. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage here at AWS re:Invent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is going to be the topic. Paul Daugherty, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, Global Managing Director of Thought Leadership and Technology Research, Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE for this conversation around your new hit book, "Radically Human." >> Thanks, John. It's great to be with you and great to be present at re:Invent. >> We've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolution is going on now where things have consequences and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as as humans. And so I love the book, very, very strong content, really right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations, but I noticed you got the structure, part one and part two, this book seems to be packing a big punch. What was the motivation, and what was some of the background in putting the book together? >> That's a great question, John. And I'll start, and then, Jim, my co-author and colleague and partner on the book can join in too. If you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called "Human + Machine", which focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the human plus machine pairing. And then when we started working on the next book, it was the COVID era. COVID came on line as we were writing the book. And that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing. Once COVID hit, every company became more dependent on technology. Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies, and what was different from the first research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that pre-pandemic, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of 2x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic, we redid the research and the gap widened into 5x. And I think that's played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around inflation, energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in "Radically Human." And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud, data and AI, and the metaverse that signal out as three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. In the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are going to set companies apart as they look to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >> Jim, weigh in on this flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. >> You used a really important word there and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as a point solution. They don't think about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that. All right, if you're going to build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate it using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability? >> I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you set the table. It's like, 'cause people right now are like in the mode of what's going on around me? I've been living through three years of COVID. We're coming out the other side. The world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home. Like, here's the current situation and then part two is here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or society. >> Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where "Radically Human", the title came from. And what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot. And the whole hypothesis or premise of the book I should say, is that the more human like the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the human potential improvement is, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the I in IDEAS. The ideas framework is the first part of the book. The five areas to flip your assumptions. The I stands for intelligence and we're talking about more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques. Things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And things like emotional AI, common sense AI, new techniques in addition to machine, the big data driven machine learning techniques, which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's just an example of how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >> I love the idea, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say we've been used to adapting to technology, and contorting our fingers to keyboards and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus, in fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >> I love the idea of flipping the script, flipping the assumptions, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, S for strategy. Notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution. Really interesting how you guys put that together. It feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and how it's going to be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think observing how developers becoming much more part of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation if you take it down to a conclusion and strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need? What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to lay out with the S in IDEAS, the strategy. The subtitle that chapter is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, that's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential role that technology plays and therefore they need to master technology. Well, you need to think about strategy differently then because of the pace of technology innovation. And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really important. It's about continuous strategy in all cases. An example is one of the techniques we talk about, forever beta, which is, think about a Tesla or companies that it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days as Paul was saying. >> It's interesting because that's the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation, but the human plays a much critical role. And just aside on the Tesla example, is well documented. I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three, Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off scripts and get to humans back in charge 'cause it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up to part two, which I like, which is this human piece of it. We always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that second half, trust, talent, experiences. That's more of the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group. Is talent the scarce resource now where that's the goal, that's the key 'cause it all could point to that in a way. Skills gap points to, hey, humans are valuable. In fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think that's something that is not, kind of nuanced point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, go ahead Jim. >> I was going to say it, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book, really zooming in on talent. I think you might think that for every hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you might put 50 or 75 into re-skilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely going to need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means on talent, on getting the best talent, on re-skilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >> That's a huge point. >> And I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we talked about in the book are becoming a talent creator. We believe the successful companies of the future are going to be able not just to post a job opening and hire people in because there's not going to be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist 'cause the technology changing so fast. So the companies that succeed are going to know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such, and shape to tale as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're going to be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what employees want. And then democratizing access to technology. Things like Amazon's Honeycode is an example, low-code/no-code development to spread development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the human talent's important, but it's magnified and multiplied by the power of people, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new ways. >> I think you nailed it, that's super important. That point about the force multiplier when you put things in combination, whether it's group constructs, two pizza teams flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think groups and collectives you're going to start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're going to start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the metaverse play into this new radically human world, and what does it mean for the future of business? >> Yeah, I think the metaverse is radically misunderstood to use the word title when we're not with the title of our book. And we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse and the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I believe that it has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward. That's going to shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, infused with the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. So you have cloud, AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to generate experiences for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds, but trust becomes more important because just as AI raises new questions around trust, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five-part framework or five essential parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >> Yeah, we're seeing that about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their IT so they're focusing on security and privacy, transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems, explainability. One of the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we were doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI using that sense of humanity 'cause other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that AI system is learning from. Some really interesting innovations happening in that trust space. John. >> Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about. Because you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and we've been calling it supercloud, some call it multi-cloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's going to happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with chat and some video. It's group behavior, it's groups convening, talking, getting things done, debating, doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low-code/no-code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >> Yeah, no, I go back to one of the, the E in the IDEAS framework is expertise. And we talk about from machine learning to machine teaching, which is exactly that. Machine learning is maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with AI. One of the examples we give is one of the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to encode in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >> Well, yeah, it's interesting. I want to to get your thoughts as we get wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the the future. They got to start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table. We were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are new things you guys are hitting in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge certainly that is an opportunity. How do you apply all this stuff for business? >> I'll go first then Jim can add in. But the first thing I think starts with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right technology talent, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why the fact you're at re:Invent is so important because companies are, again, rebuilding that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that as the foundation to go forward, to do, to build the other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. Do you have the right talent brand? Are you attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward? And then you marry the two together and that's what gives you the radically human formula. >> Yeah. When we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of research, and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. One statistic is that 70% of companies that had never tried AI before went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies were not trying to do it themselves and to necessarily build an AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale, and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >> If you see the transformation of just AWS, we're here at re:Invent, since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been a thematic thing. It was startups, enterprise, now builders, and now change your company. This year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming categorical applications in for this new era. And we're calling it supercloud, superservices, superapps, 'cause they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools, or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and we've been talking about it a lot lately. So I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like what is radical? How can I put a pin in that? It's like take a temperature or we like radical enough, what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening? How do you know if you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to take advantage? >> Yeah, I think one. >> You can go ahead, Paul. >> Yeah, I was going to say one of the tests is the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business, and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. That's still something you need to do. But now our focus with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's the platform that you're using for your new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test whether you're being radical enough is on the one hand, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the two tests that I would give. >> Totally agree. >> Interesting enough, we love this topic and you guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs of big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like IDEAS, your framework, and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean you're building clouds on top of clouds or something's happening. I think you see it, look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >> Yeah and that's a good example. And it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows and the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great, again, that you're at re:Invent. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times 'cause we tell a lot of customer company stories about how they're leveraging AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in their business. And I think that's what it's all about. >> Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great 'cause it has the systems thinking, it's got really relevant information, but you guys have seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. We're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing all kinds of new things emerging. Thoughts on the global impact 'cause you take your book and you overlay that to business, like you got to operate all over the world as a human issue, as a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >> Well that's why you got to think about cloud as one technology. We talked about in the book and cloud is, I think a lot of people think, well, clouds, it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to re:Invent since 2013. Cloud is really just getting started. And it's 'cause the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability if you're in Europe. For many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities that you need to deploy differently in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid cloud capability that they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which comes into play in different ways. And so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in IDEAS is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and just modularity was the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the pace of technology advancement. >> Yeah, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is going to be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's going to be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on theCUBE as we break down your new book, "Radically Human" and how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at re:Invent. Thanks so much for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >> Thanks, John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. People who need to be relevant in the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those that need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we've mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds from the book are being donated to NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human change in technology that's happening. >> Great. Buy the book. Proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book. If you're in the middle of this big wave that's coming. this is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to reset, reflip the scripts, refactor, replatform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing. I really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John. Great discussion. >> You're watching theCUBE here covering the executive forum here at AWS re:Invent '22. I'm John Furrier, you're host with Accenture. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(soft music) >> Hello, fellow hardware nerds and welcome back to Dallas Texas where we're reporting live from Supercomputing 2022. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with the John Furrier on my left. >> Looking good today. >> Thank you, John, so are you. It's been a great show so far. >> We've had more hosts, more guests coming than ever before. >> I know. >> Amazing, super- >> We've got a whole thing going on. >> It's been a super computing performance. >> It, wow. And, we'll see how many times we can say super on this segment. Speaking of super things, I am in a very unique position right now. I am a flanked on both sides by people who have been doing content on theCUBE for 12 years. Yes, you heard me right, our next guest was on theCUBE 12 years ago, the third event, was that right, John? >> Man: First ever VM World. >> Yeah, the first ever VM World, third event theCUBE ever did. We are about to have a lot of fun. Please join me in welcoming Justin Emerson of Pure Storage. Justin, welcome back. >> It's a pleasure to be here. It's been too long, you never call, you don't write. (Savannah laughs) >> Great to see you. >> Yeah, likewise. >> How fun is this? Has the set evolved? Is everything looking good? >> I mean, I can barely remember what happened last week, so. (everyone laughs) >> Well, I remember lot's changed that VM world. You know, Paul Moritz was the CEO if you remember at that time. His actual vision actually happened but not the way, for VMware, but the industry, the cloud, he called the software mainframe. We were kind of riffing- >> It was quite the decade. >> Unbelievable where we are now, how we got here, but not where we're going to be. And you're with Pure Storage now which we've been, as you know, covering as well. Where's the connection into the supercomputing? Obviously storage performance, big part of this show. >> Right, right. >> What's the take? >> Well, I think, first of all it's great to be back at events in person. We were talking before we went on, and it's been so great to be back at live events now. It's been such a drought over the last several years, but yeah, yeah. So I'm very glad that we're doing in person events again. For Pure, this is an incredibly important show. You know, the product that I work with, with FlashBlade is you know, one of our key areas is specifically in this high performance computing, AI machine learning kind of space. And so we're really glad to be here. We've met a lot of customers, met a lot of other folks, had a lot of really great conversations. So it's been a really great show for me. And also just seeing all the really amazing stuff that's around here, I mean, if you want to find, you know, see what all the most cutting edge data center stuff that's going to be coming down the pipe, this is the place to do it. >> So one of the big themes of the show for us and probably, well, big theme of your life, is balancing power efficiency. You have a product in this category, Direct Flash. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? >> Yeah, so Pure as a storage company, right, what do we do differently from everybody else? And if I had to pick one thing, right, I would talk about, it's, you know, as the name implies, we're an all, we're purely flash, we're an all flash company. We've always been, don't plan to be anything else. And part of that innovation with Direct Flash is the idea of rather than treating a solid state disc as like a hard drive, right? Treat it as it actually is, treat it like who it really is and that's a very different kind of thing. And so Direct Flash is all about bringing native Flash interfaces to our product portfolio. And what's really exciting for me as a FlashBlade person, is now that's also part of our FlashBlade S portfolio, which just launched in June. And so the benefits of that are our myriad. But, you know, talking about efficiency, the biggest difference is that, you know, we can use like 90% less DRAM in our drives, which you know, everything uses, everything that you put in a drive uses power, it adds cost and all those things and so that really gives us an efficiency edge over everybody else and at a show like this, where, I mean, you walk the aisles and there's there's people doing liquid cooling and so much immersion stuff, and the reason they're doing that is because power is just increasing everywhere, right? So if you can figure out how do we use less power in some areas means you can shift that budget to other places. So if you can talk to a customer and say, well, if I could shrink your power budget for storage by two thirds or even, save you two-thirds of power, how many more accelerators, how many more CPUs, how much more work could you actually get done? So really exciting. >> I mean, less power consumption, more power and compute. >> Right. >> Kind of power center. So talk about the AI implications, where the use cases are. What are you seeing here? A lot of simulations, a lot of students, again, dorm room to the boardroom we've been saying here on theCUBE this is a great broad area, where's the action in the ML and the AI for you guys? >> So I think, not necessarily storage related but I think that right now there's this enormous explosion of custom silicon around AI machine learning which I as a, you said welcome hardware nerds at the beginning and I was like, ah, my people. >> We're all here, we're all here in Dallas. >> So wonderful. You know, as a hardware nerd we're talking about conferences, right? Who has ever attended hot chips and there's so much really amazing engineering work going on in the silicon space. It's probably the most exciting time for, CPU and accelerator, just innovation in, since the days before X 86 was the defacto standard, right? And you could go out and buy a different workstation with 16 different ISAs. That's really the most exciting thing, I walked past so many different places where you know, our booth is right next to Havana Labs with their gout accelerator, and they're doing this cute thing with one of the AI image generators in their booth, which is really cute. >> Woman: We're going to have to go check that out. >> Yeah, but that to me is like one of the more exciting things around like innovation at a, especially at a show like this where it's all about how do we move forward, the state of the art. >> What's different now than just a few years ago in terms of what's opening up the creativity for people to look at things that they could do with some of the scale that's different now. >> Yeah well, I mean, every time the state of the art moves forward what it means is, is that the entry level gets better, right? So if the high end is going faster, that means that the mid-range is going faster, and that means the entry level is going faster. So every time it pushes the boundary forward, it's a rising tide that floats all boats. And so now, the kind of stuff that's possible to do, if you're a student in a dorm room or if you're an enterprise, the world, the possible just keeps expanding dramatically and expanding almost, you know, geometrically like the amount of data that we are, that we have, as a storage guy, I was coming back to data but the amount of data that we have and the amount of of compute that we have, and it's not just about the raw compute, but also the advances in all sorts of other things in terms of algorithms and transfer learning and all these other things. There's so much amazing work going on in this area and it's just kind of this Kay Green explosion of innovation in the area. >> I love that you touched on the user experience for the community, no matter the level that you're at. >> Yeah. >> And I, it's been something that's come up a lot here. Everyone wants to do more faster, always, but it's not just that, it's about making the experience and the point of entry into this industry more approachable and digestible for folks who may not be familiar, I mean we have every end of the ecosystem here, on the show floor, where does Pure Storage sit in the whole game? >> Right, so as a storage company, right? What AI is all about deriving insights from data, right? And so everyone remembers that magazine cover data's the new oil, right? And it's kind of like, okay, so what do you do with it? Well, how do you derive value from all of that data? And AI machine learning and all of this supercomputing stuff is about how do we take all this data? How do we innovate with it? And so if you want data to innovate with, you need storage. And so, you know, our philosophy is that how do we make the best storage platforms that we can using the best technology for our customers that enable them to do really amazing things with AI machine learning and we've got different products, but, you know at the show here, what we're specifically showing off is our new flashlight S product, which, you know, I know we've had Pure folks on theCUBE before talking about FlashBlade, but for viewers out there, FlashBlade is our our scale out unstructured data platform and AI and machine learning and supercomputing is all about unstructured data. It's about sensor data, it's about imaging, it's about, you know, photogrammetry, all this other kinds of amazing stuff. But, you got to land all that somewhere. You got to process that all somewhere. And so really high performance, high throughput, highly scalable storage solutions are really essential. It's an enabler for all of the amazing other kinds of engineering work that goes on at a place like Supercomputing. >> It's interesting you mentioned data's oil. Remember in 2010, that year, our first year of theCUBE, Hadoop World, Hadoop just started to come on the scene, which became, you know kind of went away and, but now you got, Spark and Databricks and Snowflake- >> Justin: And it didn't go away, it just changed, right? >> It just got refactored and right size, I think for what the people wanted it to be easy to use but there's more data coming. How is data driving innovation as you bring, as people see clearly the more data's coming? How is data driving innovation as you guys look at your products, your roadmap and your customer base? How is data driving innovation for your customers? >> Well, I think every customer who has been, you know collecting all of this data, right? Is trying to figure out, now what do I do with it? And a lot of times people collect data and then it will end up on, you know, lower slower tiers and then suddenly they want to do something with it. And it's like, well now what do I do, right? And so there's all these people that are reevaluating you know, we, when we developed FlashBlade we sort of made this bet that unstructured data was going to become the new tier one data. It used to be that we thought unstructured data, it was emails and home directories and all that stuff the kind of stuff that you didn't really need a really good DR plan on. It's like, ah, we could, now of course, as soon as email goes down, you realize how important email is. But, the perspectives that people had on- >> Yeah, exactly. (all laughing) >> The perspectives that people had on unstructured data and it's value to the business was very different and so now- >> Good bet, by the way. >> Yeah, thank you. So now unstructured data is considered, you know, where companies are going to derive their value from. So it's whether they use the data that they have to build better products whether it's they use the data they have to develop you know, improvements in processes. All those kinds of things are data driven. And so all of the new big advancements in industry and in business are all about how do I derive insights from data? And so machine learning and AI has something to do with that, but also, you know, it all comes back to having data that's available. And so, we're working very hard on building platforms that customers can use to enable all of this really- >> Yeah, it's interesting, Savannah, you know, the top three areas we're covering for reinventing all the hyperscale events is data. How does it drive innovation and then specialized solutions to make customers lives easier? >> Yeah. >> It's become a big category. How do you compose stuff and then obviously compute, more and more compute and services to make the performance goes. So those seem to be the three hot areas. So, okay, data's the new oil refineries. You've got good solutions. What specialized solutions do you see coming out because once people have all this data, they might have either large scale, maybe some edge use cases. Do you see specialized solutions emerging? I mean, obviously it's got DPU emerging which is great, but like, do you see anything else coming out at that people are- >> Like from a hardware standpoint. >> Or from a customer standpoint, making the customer's lives easier? So, I got a lot of data flowing in. >> Yeah. >> It's never stopping, it keeps powering in. >> Yeah. >> Are there things coming out that makes their life easier? Have you seen anything coming out? >> Yeah, I think where we are as an industry right now with all of this new technology is, we're really in this phase of the standards aren't quite there yet. Everybody is sort of like figuring out what works and what doesn't. You know, there was this big revolution in sort of software development, right? Where moving towards agile development and all that kind of stuff, right? The way people build software change fundamentally this is kind of like another wave like that. I like to tell people that AI and machine learning is just a different way of writing software. What is the output of a training scenario, right? It's a model and a model is just code. And so I think that as all of these different, parts of the business figure out how do we leverage these technologies, what it is, is it's a different way of writing software and it's not necessarily going to replace traditional software development, but it's going to augment it, it's going to let you do other interesting things and so, where are things going? I think we're going to continue to start coalescing around what are the right ways to do things. Right now we talk about, you know, ML Ops and how development and the frameworks and all of this innovation. There's so much innovation, which means that the industry is moving so quickly that it's hard to settle on things like standards and, or at least best practices you know, at the very least. And that the best practices are changing every three months. Are they really best practices right? So I think, right, I think that as we progress and coalesce around kind of what are the right ways to do things that's really going to make customers' lives easier. Because, you know, today, if you're a software developer you know, we build a lot of software at Pure Storage right? And if you have people and developers who are familiar with how the process, how the factory functions, then their skills become portable and it becomes easier to onboard people and AI is still nothing like that right now. It's just so, so fast moving and it's so- >> Wild West kind of. >> It's not standardized. It's not industrialized, right? And so the next big frontier in all of this amazing stuff is how do we industrialize this and really make it easy to implement for organizations? >> Oil refineries, industrial Revolution. I mean, it's on that same trajectory. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Or industrial revolution. (John laughs) >> Well, we've talked a lot about the chaos and sort of we are very much at this early stage stepping way back and this can be your personal not Pure Storage opinion if you want. >> Okay. >> What in HPC or AIML I guess it all falls under the same umbrella, has you most excited? >> Ooh. >> So I feel like you're someone who sees a lot of different things. You've got a lot of customers, you're out talking to people. >> I think that there is a lot of advancement in the area of natural language processing and I think that, you know, we're starting to take things just like natural language processing and then turning them into vision processing and all these other, you know, I think the, the most exciting thing for me about AI is that there are a lot of people who are, you are looking to use these kinds of technologies to make technology more inclusive. And so- >> I love it. >> You know the ability for us to do things like automate captioning or the ability to automate descriptive, audio descriptions of video streams or things like that. I think that those are really,, I think they're really great in terms of bringing the benefits of technology to more people in an automated way because the challenge has always been bandwidth of how much a human can do. And because they were so difficult to automate and what AI's really allowing us to do is build systems whether that's text to speech or whether that's translation, or whether that's captioning or all these other things. I think the way that AI interfaces with humans is really the most interesting part. And I think the benefits that it can bring there because there's a lot of talk about all of the things that it does that people don't like or that they, that people are concerned about. But I think it's important to think about all the really great things that maybe don't necessarily personally impact you, but to the person who's not cited or to the person who you know is hearing impaired. You know, that's an enormously valuable thing. And the fact that those are becoming easier to do they're becoming better, the quality is getting better. I think those are really important for everybody. >> I love that you brought that up. I think it's a really important note to close on and you know, there's always the kind of terminator, dark side that we obsess over but that's actually not the truth. I mean, when we think about even just captioning it's a tool we use on theCUBE. It's, you know, we see it on our Instagram stories and everything else that opens the door for so many more people to be able to learn. >> Right? >> And the more we all learn, like you said the water level rises together and everything is magical. Justin, it has been a pleasure to have you on board. Last question, any more bourbon tasting today? >> Not that I'm aware of, but if you want to come by I'm sure we can find something somewhere. (all laughing) >> That's the spirit, that is the spirit of an innovator right there. Justin, thank you so much for joining us from Pure Storage. John Furrier, always a pleasure to interview with you. >> I'm glad I can contribute. >> Hey, hey, that's the understatement of the century. >> It's good to be back. >> Yeah. >> Hopefully I'll see you guys in, I'll see you guys in 2034. >> No. (all laughing) No, you've got the Pure Accelerate conference. We'll be there. >> That's right. >> We'll be there. >> Yeah, we have our Pure Accelerate conference next year and- >> Great. >> Yeah. >> I love that, I mean, feel free to, you know, hype that. That's awesome. >> Great company, great runs, stayed true to the mission from day one, all Flash, continue to innovate congratulations. >> Yep, thank you so much, it's pleasure being here. >> It's a fun ride, you are a joy to talk to and it's clear you're just as excited as we are about hardware, so thanks a lot Justin. >> My pleasure. >> And thank all of you for tuning in to this wonderfully nerdy hardware edition of theCUBE live from Dallas, Texas, where we're at, Supercomputing, my name's Savannah Peterson and I hope you have a wonderful night. (soft music)

>>Hello and welcome to the Cube's coverage here at AWS Reinvent 2022. This is the Executive Summit with Accenture. I'm John Furry, your host of the Cube at two great guests coming on today, really talking about the future, the role of humans. Radically human is gonna be the topic. Paul Dardy, the group Chief Executive Technology and CTO at Accenture. And Jim Wilson, global managing director of thought Leadership and Technology research. Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on the cube for this conversation around your new hit book. Radically human. >>Thanks, John. It's great to, great to be with you and great, great to be present at reinvent. >>You know, we've been following you guys for many, many years now, over a decade. You always have the finger on the pulse. I mean, and as these waves come in, it's really important to understand impact. And more than ever, we're kind of in this, I call it the systems thinking, revolutions going on now where things have consequences and, and machines are now accelerating their role. Developers are becoming the front lines of running companies, seeing a massive shift. This new technology is transforming the business and shaping our future as, as humans. And so I love the book. Very, very strong content, really. Right on point. What was the motivation for the book? And congratulations. But, you know, I noticed you got the, the structure part one and part two, This book seems to be packing a big punch. What's, what was the motivation and, and what was some of the background in, in putting the book together? >>That's a great question, John, and I'll start, and then, you know, Jim, my co-author and, and part colleague and partner on this, on the book and join in too. You know, the, if you step back from the book itself, we'd written a first book called, you know, Human Plus Machine, which talked about the, you know, focused a lot on artificial intelligence and talked about the potential and future of artificial intelligence to create a more human future for us with the Human plus machine pairing. And then, you know, when we started, you know, working on the next book, Covid was, you know, it was kinda the Covid era. Covid came online as, as we were writing the book. And, but that was causing really an interesting time in technology for a lot of companies. I mean, think back to what you were doing, you know, once Covid hit, every company became more dependent on technology. >>Technology was the lifeline. And so Jim and I got interested in what the impacts of that were on companies ba, you know, and what was different from the first, you know, research we had done around our first book. And what we found, which was super interesting, is that, is that, you know, pre pandemic, the, the leading companies, the digital leaders that were applying cloud data, AI, and related technologies faster, we're outperforming others by a factor of two x. And that was before the pandemic. After the pandemic. We redid the research and the gap widen into five x. And I think that's, and, and that's kind of played a lot into our book. And we talk about that in the opening of our book. And the message message there is exactly what you said is technology is not just the lifeline, you know, from the pandemic, but now technology is the heart and soul of how companies are driving innovation, how they're responding to global crises around, you know, inflation energy, supply chain crisis because of the war in Ukraine, et cetera. >>And companies need the technology more than ever. And that's what we're writing about in, in Radically Human. And we're taking a step beyond our previous book to talk about what we believe is next. And it's really cloud data and ai and the metaverse that signal out is three trends that are really driving transformative change for companies. And the first part of the book, to your question on the structure, talks about the roadmap to that. We talked about the ideas framework, five areas where you need to change your thinking, flip your assumptions on how to apply technology. And then the second part of the book talks about the differentiators that we believe are gonna set companies apart as they look to, you know, to implement this technology and transform their companies for the future. >>Jim, weigh in on this. Flipping the script, flipping the assumptions. No, >>You, you, you used a really important word there, and that is systems. I think when we think about artificial intelligence, and when Paul and I have now talking to companies, a lot of executives think of AI as kind of a point solution. They don't think of about AI in terms of taking a systems approach. So we were trying to address that, all right, if you're gonna build a roadmap, a technology roadmap for applying intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence, how do you take a holistic systematic view? And that's really the, the focus of the first section of the book. And then as Paul mentioned, how do you take those systems and really differentiate using your talent, focusing on trust, experiences and sustainability. >>You know, I like this, I like how it reads. It's almost like a masterclass book because you kind of set the table. It's like, cuz people right now are like in the mode of, you know, what's going on around me. I'm been living through three years of covid. But coming out the other side, the world looks radically different. Humans are much more important. Automation's great, but people are finding out that the human's key, but people are trying to figure out where I am, where am I today. So I think the first part really to me hits home, like, here's the current situation and then part two is, here's how you can get better. And it's not just about machines, machines, machines and automation, automation, automation. We're seeing examples where the role of the human, the person in society, whether it's individually or as part of a group, are really now key assets in that kind of this new workforce or this new production system or you know, society. >>Yeah. And just to take a couple examples from the book and highlight that, I think you're exactly right. And that's where, you know, radically human, you know, the title came from. And you know, the, what's happening with technology is that technology itself is becoming more human like in its capability. When you think about the power of the transformer technologies and other things that we're reading about a lot and, and that, you know, the whole hypothesis, you know, or premise of the book I should say, is that the more humanlike the technology is, the more radically human or the more radical the, you know, the, the the, the human potential improvement is the more, the bigger the opportunity. It's pairing the two together rather than, as you said, just looking at the automation or the machine side of it. That's really the radical leap. And one thing Jim and I, you know, talk about, you know, talked about, you know, talked about in context of the book is companies really often haven't been radical enough in applying technology to really get to dramatic gains that they can get. >>Just a couple examples from the ideas framework, the eye and ideas is each of the, the ideas framework is the first part of the book, The five areas to flip your Assumptions, The eye stands for intelligence. And we're talking about more, more human and less artificial in terms of the intelligence techniques, things like common sense learning and other techniques that allow you to develop more powerful ways of engaging people, engaging humans in the systems that we build, using the kind of systems thinking that Jim mentioned. And you know, things like emotional ai, common sense ai, new techniques in addition to machine the big data driven machine learning techniques which are essential to vision and solving big problems like that. So that's, that's just an example of, you know, how you bring it together and enable that human potential. >>I love the, we've been, >>We've >>Go ahead Jim. >>I was gonna say we've been used to adapting to technology, you know, and you know, contorting our fingers to keyboards and and so on for a long time. And now we're starting to see that technology is in fact beginning to adapt to us and become more natural in many instances. One point that we make is now in the human technology nexus. In fact, the human is in the ascended. That's one of the, one of the big ideas that we try to put out there in this book. >>You know, I love the idea of flipping the script, flicking assumptions, but, but ideas framework is interesting. I for intelligence, D for data, E for expertise, A for architecture, s for strategy, notice the strategies last. Normally in the old school days, it's like, hey, strategy first and execution really kind of interesting kind of how you guys put that together. It kind of feels like business is becoming agile and iterative and it's how it's gonna be forming. Can you guys, I mean that's my opinion, but I think, you know, observing how developers becoming much more part of, of the app. I mean, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, the application is the company, It's not a department serving the business, it is the business, therefore developers are running the business, so to speak. This is really radical. I mean, this is kind of how I'm seeing it. What's your reaction to that? Do you see similar parallels to this transformation? If you take it down to a conclusion, strategy is just what you do after you get the outcomes you need. Is that, can you, what's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, yeah, I think, I think one of the most lasting elements of the book might be that chapter on strategy in, in my opinion, because you need to think about it differently. The old, old way of doing strategy is dead. You can't do it the way you used to do it. And that's what we tried to, you know, to lay out with the, the essence ideas, you know, the strategy and the, the, the fun. You know, the, the subtitle that chapter is is we're all technology companies now. And if you're a technology driven company, the way you need to think about and every company is becoming, That's what I hear when I talk to these suites and CEOs and boards, is everybody's recognizing the essential world that technology plays and therefore they need to, to master technology, well, you need to think about strategy differently than because of the pace of technology innovation. >>And so you need to throw out the old way of doing it. We suggest three new archetypes of how to do strategy that I think are really report it's about continuous strategy in all cases. Yet an example is one of the techniques we talk about forever beta, which is, you know, think about a Tesla, you know, companies that, you know, it's never quite done. They're always improving and the product is designed to be connected and improving. So it changes along, you know, the product and the strategy along how you deploy it to consumers changes as you go. And that's an example of a very different approach to strategy that we, we believe is essential to consider as you look at the future. Yeah, those multi-month strategy sessions, you know, might play out over two or three quarters of going away. And strategy and execution are becoming almost simultaneous these days. As Paul was saying, >>It's interesting because that's the kind of the trend you're seeing with more data, more automation. But the human plays a much critical role. And, and just as a side on the Tesla example, you know, is well documented, I think I wrote about in a post just this week that during the model three Elon wanted full automation and had to actually go off script and get to humans back in charge cuz it wasn't working properly. Now they have a balance. But that brings up the, the part two, which I like, which is, you know, this human piece of it, you know, we always talk about skills gaps, there's not enough people to do this, that and the other thing. And talent was a big part of that, that second half, you know, trust, talent experiences, that's the more the person's role, either individually as part of a collective group is talent. The scarce resource now where that's the, that's the goal, that's the, the key because I mean, it all could point to that in a way, you know, skills gap kind of points to, hey, you know, humans are valuable, in fact the value's going up if it's properly architected. What's your reaction to that, guys? Because I think, you know, that's something that is not kind of nuance point, but it's a feature, not a bug maybe, I don't know. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, it's, go ahead Jim. I was gonna say it, you know, we're, we're dramatically underestimating the amount of focus we need to put on talent. That's why we start off that second part of the book. You know, really zooming in on talent. I think, you know, you might think that for every, you know, a hundred dollars that you put into a technology initiative, you know, you might put 50 or 75 into reskilling initiatives to really compliment that. But what we're seeing is companies need to be much more revolutionary in their focus on talent. We saw a, a economic analysis recently that pointed out that for every $1 you spend on technology, you are likely gonna need to spend about $9 on intangible human capital. That means, you know, on talent, on, on getting the best talent on reskilling and on changing processes and work tasks. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Really that's human focus. It's not just about adopting the technology. Certainly the technology's critical, but we're underestimating the amount of focus that needs to go into the talent factors. >>That's a huge point. >>I think some of the elements of talent that become really critical that we, we talked about in the book are, are becoming a talent creator. We believe that the successful companies of the future are gonna be able not, not just to post, you know, post a job opening and hire, hire people in because there's not gonna be enough. And a lot of the jobs that companies are creating don't exist, you know, cause the technology changing so fast. So companies that succeed are gonna know how to create talent, bring in people, apprentices and such and, and, and, you know, shape to tail as they go. We're doing a significant amount of that in our own company. They're gonna be learning based organizations where you'll differentiate, you'll get the best employees if you provide better learning environments because that's what you know, employees want. And then democratizing access to technology, You know, things like, you know, Amazon's honey code is an example, you know, low code, no code development to spread, you know, development to wider pools of people. Those types of things are really critical, you know, going forward to really unlock the talent potential. And really what you end up with is, yeah, the, the human talent's important, but it's magnified to multiplied by the power of people, you know, giving them in essence superpowers in using technology in new >>Ways. I think you nailed it, That's super important. That point about the force multiplier, when you put things in combination with it's group constructs, two pizza teams, flexing, leveraging the talent. I mean, this is kind of a new configuration. You guys are nailing it there. I love that piece. And I think, you know, groups and collectives, you're gonna start to see a lot more of that. But again, with talent comes trust when you start to have these kind of, you know, ephemeral and or forming groups that are forming production systems or, or, or experiences. So trust comes up a lot. You guys see the metaverse as an important part there. Obviously Metaverse is a pretext to the virtual world where we're gonna start to create these group experiences and create new force multipliers. How does the Metaverse play into this new radically human world and and what does it mean for the future of business? >>Yeah, I think the Metaverse is radically, you know, kind of misunderstood to use the word title, word of a, when we're not with the title of our book, you know, and we believe that the metaverse does have real big potential, massive potential, and I think it'll transform the way we think about digital more so than we've changed our thinking on digital in the last 10 years. So, you know, that that's the potential of the metaverse. And it's about, it's not just about the consumer things, it's about metaverse in the enterprise. It's about the new products you create using distributed ledger and other technologies. And it's about the industrial metaverse of how you bring digital twins and augmented workers online in different ways. And so I, I believe you know that it is, has tremendous potential. We write about that in the book and it really takes radically human to another level. >>And one way to think about this is cloud is really becoming the operating system of business. You, you have to build your enterprise around the cloud as you go forward that's gonna shape the way you do business. AI becomes the insight and intelligence in how you work, you know, in infused with, you know, the human talent and such as we said. And the metaverse then reshapes the experience layers. You have cloud AI building on top of this metaverse providing a new way to, to generate experiences for, for employees, citizens, consumers, et cetera. And that's the way it unfolds. But trust becomes more important because the, just as AI raises new questions around trust, you know, every technology raises new questions around trust. The metaverse raises a whole new set of questions. And in the book we outline a five part framework or or five, you know, essential, you know, parts of the framework around how you establish trust as you implement these new technologies. >>Yeah, we're seeing that, you know, about three quarters of companies are really trying to figure out trust, you know, certainly with issues like the metaverse more broadly across their it, so they're, you know, they're focusing on security and privacy transparency, especially when you're talking about AI systems. Explainability. One of the, you know, the more surprising things that we learned when doing the book, when we're doing the research is that we saw that increasingly consumers and employees want systems to be informed by kind of a sense of humanity. So one company that we've been looking at that's been developing autonomous vehicles, self-driving car systems, the, they're, they're actually training the system by emulating human behavior. So kind of turning the cameras on test drivers to see how they learn and then training the AI kind of using that sense of humanity cuz you know, the other drivers on the road find human behavior more trustworthy. And similarly, that system is also using explainable AI to actually show which human behaviors that that AI system is learning from or some really interesting innovations kind of happening in that trust space. John, >>Jim, I think you bring up a great point that's worth talking more about because you know, you're talking about how human behaviors are being put into the, the design of new things like machines or software. And we're living in this era of cloud scale, which is compressing this transformation timeline and you know, we've been calling it super cloud, some call it multicloud, but it's really a new thing happening where you're seeing an acceleration of the transformation. We think it's gonna happen much faster in the next five to 10 years. And so that means these new things are emerging, not just, hey, I'm running a virtual event with Chad and some video, you know, it's, it's group behavior, it's group con groups, convening, talking, getting things done, you know, debating doing things differently. And so this idea of humans informing design decisions or software with low code no code, this completely changes strategy. I mean this is a big point of the book. >>Yeah, no, I go back to, you know, one of the, the, the, the e and the ideas frameworks is expertise. And we talk about, you know, from machine learning to machine teaching, which, which is exactly that, you know, it's, you know, machine learning is, you know, maybe humans tag data and stuff and feed into algorithms. Machine teaching is how do you really leverage the human expertise in the systems that you develop with ai? One of the examples we give is one of the, the large consumer platforms that uses human designers to give the system a sense of aesthetic design and product design. A very difficult thing, especially with changing fashion interest and everything else to code in algorithms and to even have AI do, even if you have fast amounts of data, but with the right human insight and human expertise injected in, you can create, you know, amazing new capability that responds to consumers in a much more powerful way. And that's an example of what you just said, John, bringing the two together. >>Well you, what's interesting is that I wanna to get your thoughts as we can wrap up here soon. How do you apply all these human-centric technologies to the future of business? As you guys talk to leaders in, in the enterprise of their businesses, as they look at the horizon, they see the, the future, they gotta start thinking about things like generative AI and how they can bring some of these technologies to the table where, you know, we were, we were talking about if open source continues to grow the way it's going, there might not be any code to write, it just writes itself at some point. So you got supply chain issues with security. These are, these are new things you guys are hitting on this in the book where these are new dynamics, new power dynamics in how things get built. So if you're a business owner and leader, this is a new opportunity, a challenge, certainly that is an opportunity. How, how do you apply all this stuff for, for business >>Now? I'll go first then Jim Canad. But the, the first thing I think starts with, with recognizing the role that technology does play and investing accordingly in it. So the right, you know, technology, talent, you know, rethinking the way you do strategy as we talked about earlier and recognizing how you need to build a foundation. That's why, you know, the fact you're at reinvent is so important because companies are, you know, again rebuilding that, that operating system of their business in the cloud. And you need that, you know, as the foundation to go forward, to do, you know, to, to build the other, other types of capabilities. And then I think it's developing those talent systems as well. You know, do you, do you have the right the, do you have the right talent brand? Are you attacking the right, attracting the right employees? Are you developing them in the right way so that you have the right future talent going forward and then you marry the two together and that's what, you know, gives you the radically human formula. >>Yeah. When, you know, when we were developing that first part of the book, Paul and I did quite a bit of, of research, and this was ju and Paul kind of alluded to that research earlier, but one of the things that we saw in really the first year of the pandemic was that there was a lot of first time adoption of intelligent technologies like artificial intelligence. You know, one statistic is that 70% of, there was a, there was a of companies that had never tried AI before, went ahead and tried it during the pandemic. So first time adoption rates were way up, but the thing is companies are not, or we're not trying to do it themselves and to, you know, to necessarily, you know, build an it, a AI department. They were partnering and it's really important to, to find a partner, often a cloud partner as a way to get started, start small scale and then scale up doing experiments. So that was one of the, that was one of the key insights that we had. You don't need to do it all yourself. >>If you see the transformation of just aws, we're here at reinvent just since we've been covering the events since 2013, every year there's been kind of a thematic thing. It was, you know, startups, enterprise now builders and now, now change your company this year it's continuing that same thing where you're starting to see new things happen. It's not just lift and shift and, and running a SaaS application on the cloud. People are are changing and refactoring and replatforming, categorical applications in for this new era. And you know, we're calling it super cloud super services, super apps cuz they're different. They're doing different things in leveraging large scale CapEx, large scale talent pools or talent pools in certain ways. So this is real, something's happening here and you know, we've been talking about a lot lately, so I have to ask you guys, how does a company know if they're radical enough? Like when, what is radical? How do, how can I put a pin in that say that could take a temperature or we like radical enough what some tell signs can you guys share for companies that are really leaning into this new next inflection point because there are new things happening. How do you know if you're, you're you're pushing the envelope radical enough to, to take advantage? >>Yeah, I think one, yeah, I was gonna say one of the, one of the tests is is you know, the impact on your business. You have to start by looking at all this in the context of your business and is it really taking you to another level? You said it perfectly, John, it used to be we used to talk about migration and workloads to the cloud and things like that. Yeah. That that's still something you need to do. But now we, our focus, you know, with a lot of our customers is on how do you innovate and grow your business in the cloud? What's, what is, you know, how, how, what's the platform you know, that you're using to, you know, for your, the new digital products and services you're offering to your consumers. I mean it is the business and I think that's the test. Whether being radical, you know, radical enough is on the one hand, is this really, are you really using the technology to drive differentiation and real growth and change in your business? And are you equipping, you know, people, your human talent with the capabilities they need to perform in very different ways? And those are the the two tests that I would give. Totally agree. >>Yeah. You know, interesting enough, we, you know, we, we love this topic and guys, again, the book is spot on. Very packs a big punch on content, but very relevant in today. And I think, you know, one of the things we're looking at is that people who do things differently take advantage of some of these radical approaches like ideas your framework and understand where they are and what's available and what's coming around the corner. They stand out in the, in the pack or create new business opportunities because the CapEx is taken care of. Now you got your cloud, I mean some, you're building clouds on top of clouds or, or something's happening. You can, I think you see it like look at like companies like Snowflake, it's a data warehouse on the cloud. What does that mean? They didn't build a cloud, they used Amazon. So you're starting to see these new things pop up. >>Yeah, and that's a good example and it sounds like a simple thing, data warehouse in the cloud, but the new business capability that a technology like that allows the portability of being able to connect and use data across cloud environments and such is, is, is is tremendously powerful. And I think that's why, you know, you talk about companies doing things differently, that's why it's great again that you're at reinvents. If you look at the index of our book, you'll see, you'll see AWS mentioned a number of times cuz we tell a lot of cus of cus customer and company stories about how they're leveraging aws, AWS capabilities in cloud and AI to really do transformative things in your, in their business. And I, I think that's what it's, that's what it's all about. >>Yeah, and one of the things too in the book, it's great cuz it has kind of a, the systems thinking it's got really relevant information but you know, you guys have seen the, seen the movie before. I think one of the wild cards in this era is global. You know, we're global economy, you've got regions, you've got data sovereignty, you're seeing, you know, all kinds of new things, emerging thoughts on the global impact cuz you, you take your book and you overlay that to business. Like you gotta, you gotta operate all over the world as a human issue. It's a geography issue. What's your guys take on the global impact? >>Well that's, that's why the, the, you gotta think about cloud as as one technology, you know, we talked about in the book and cloud is a lot, I think a lot of people think, well clouds it's almost old news. Maybe it's been around for a while. As you said, you've been going to reinvent since 2013. You know, cloud is really just getting, you know, just getting started. And, and it's cuz the reasons you said, when you look at what you need to do around sovereign cloud capability, if you're in Europe for many companies it's about multi-cloud capabilities. You need to deploy, you know, differently in different, in different regions. And they need to, in some cases for good reason, they have hybrid, hybrid cloud, you know, capability that they, they match on their own. And then there's the edge capability which is comes into play in, in different ways. >>And, and so the architecture becomes very complex and we talk the A in and ideas is architecture. We talk about all this and how you need to move from the old conception of architecture, which was more static and mod and you know, just modularity was kind of the key thing you thought about. It's more the idea of a living system, of living architecture that's, that's expanding and is what's much more dynamic. And I think that's the way you need to think about it as you manage in a global environment today with the, with the pace of technology advancement. >>You know, the innovation is here. It's not stopping. How do you create some defacto standards while not stunting the innovation is gonna be a big discussion as these new flipped assumptions start to generate more activity. It's gonna be very interesting to watch. Gentlemen, thank you so much for spending the time here on the queue as we break down your new book, Radically Human and how it, how business leads can flip the script on their business assumptions and put ideas and access to work. This is a big part of the cloud show at reinvent. Thanks so much for, for sharing and congratulations on a great book. >>You know, Thanks John. And just one point I'd add is that one of the, the things we do talk about in talent is the need to reskill talent. You know, people who need to, you know, be, be relevant to the rapidly changing future. And that's one area where I think we all as institutions, as communities and individuals need to do more is to help those who need to reskilling. And the final point I mentioned is that we mentioned at the end of the book that all proceeds for the book are being donated to not NGOs and nonprofits that are focused on reskilling. Those who need a skill refresh in light of the radically human new, you know, change in technology that's happening >>Great by the book proceeds go to a great cause and it's a very relevant book if you're in the middle of this big way that's coming. This is a great book. There's a guidepost and also give you some great ideas to, to reset re flip the scripts. Refactor, re-platform. Guys, thanks for coming on and sharing, really appreciate it. Again, congratulations. >>Thanks, John. John, great discussion. >>Okay, you're watching the Cube here, covering the executive forum here at AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host with aen. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE Live in Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22. John, this is day two of our coverage wall-to-wall three days of coverage on theCUBE. We've been talking a lot about the developer and how the world is starting to really revolve around developer and DevOps portfolios. >> Yes, developers, startups, big companies, all transforming. This next segment, we want to hear from how Dell Technologies cloud natives, big time strategy there and looking forward to it. It's good. It's going to be a great segment. >> Yes, please welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE. Brad Maltz is here, Senior Director of DevOps Portfolio and DevRel for Dell Technologies. Good to see you. >> Thank you guys for having me. >> So, Dell at KubeCon, what's going on? >> Yeah, that's literally the most common question I'm getting. So for us, it's a lot about our customer base is making that transformation into a DevOps world. And they have a ton of Dell and they're like, Hey, from a Dell perspective, how do you help us make that transformation into a DevOps operating model? So we're here to explain that. We're here to talk about infrastructure as code, our container Kubernetes story, our multi-cloud story. We're talking about all of it. >> Tell us about those stories and what the value is in it for companies to work with Dell as they transition. >> So when we look at it from a DevOps perspective for us, it's all about the culture, the operating model shift they're trying to make. And what that means to them is they have to figure out how do they automate all of the stacks they have to deal with. Whether it's going to be server, storage, data protection, network, and all the way up through the hypervisor and Kubernetes. That means they need to work with an ecosystem of tools. Things like Ansible, things like Terraform, all that stuff. Our job is to make our portfolio more consumable in the infrastructure as code space. That's one part of the discussion. The second part of the conversation is Kubernetes won. Kubernetes won the abstraction in this multi-cloud world and we as Dell are helping our customers consume Kubernetes. Whether it's by bringing solutions and more appliance oriented mentality to the market or whether it's actually enabling them with our container storage modules and CSI drivers. >> So it as supercloud as we call or multi-cloud as some people call it, you're starting to see the abstraction for interoperability, but essentially just distributed hybrid cloud. Edge as you guys have a big presence. So Dell's supplying not just the data center anymore. Cloud models are moving to hybrid on-premises, edge is growing. We saw some great use cases where military applications are using Kubernetes and all kinds of new things. So this real examples happening right now. This is going to impact Dell's customers and Dell as a supplier of compute and servers. And the gear that runs everything. Like at a telco, you can have a data center at an edge spot, like a box could be a data center. >> Telco is a great example cause we created the business, the Telco business unit. And in the Telco business unit, our goal was, hey, telco is a little different than enterprise edge. Enterprise edge, retail, manufacturing, healthcare. They have certain needs. Telco, much smaller group of customers that have a much different set of needs. And that's very similar is how do we scale at the edge? How do we control things programmatically? How do we do it in a secure way? And how do we do it so that our people internally don't have to deal with the underpinnings of all that infrastructure. Just make it easier for them. That's our goal through the edge discussions, through telco and all that. >> Yeah. We've been doing a big thing on why hardware matters. Hardware's back. We look at all the hyperscalers, the big competition is faster, faster, faster chips, faster the physics. This is part of the supply chain both hardware and software. Okay. So developers want more power. At the end of the day, this community here wants invisible infrastructure and they want it fast. >> Brad: Yes, that's exactly right. >> There's a lot under the hub. It's still servers. >> You still got firmware, you still got bio, you still got to management operating system, You still got to patch things, kernels, security issues, all of that from a server perspective. We haven't even talked about storage or networking or any of the other stuff. So there's a ton of buttons and dials under the covers. >> And that's totally going to be awesome. And the question comes in, okay, now take me to the cloud native because automation, infrastructures code, these are now the hotspots. Software supply chain, not hardware, software supply chain. So these are all things that are going to be intersecting. What's your view? >> In the multi-cloud view of the world, what we really have are our customers are saying, okay, we started on one cloud, Amazon or Azure or Google. And they're like, you know what? We had to go to a second cloud for whatever reason, many reasons. Now we have to manage two clouds. And by the way, we never got fully off-prem. So now we have all of our on-premises stuff plus multiple clouds. How do we deal with the complexity there? And the complexity there is everything from data problems of data mobility, data protection, replication, all that stuff. How do we deal with the actual application life cycle management across that? And that's where a lot of the tooling we're discussing comes in. That's where Kubernetes comes in and they want to do it in an agnostic way. 'Cause if they can't begin to transition to do it in a standardized layer, then the end of the day they're still going to be managing three totally different environments with three separate engineering teams. >> So is your target audience primarily existing Dell customers, legacy customers, or is it really wide open? >> It's actually been opening up. So we have kind of, the way I view it is we have three different segments that we're going to be going after. We have what I would say is the top 10% of the industry that's really able to skill up into this DevOps world very quickly. They're going to go after the GitOps, they're going to go after all those things. That's a combination of existing customers, but also the really, really large customers that can build their own clouds on-premises. We then have the other end of the spectrum. People that aren't making the shift. People that are like, you know what this DevOps transformation it's not going to help us there, but we still need server and storage and whatnot. And then I like to call it the squishy middle. 60, 70% of the market that's like, we can't scale up in time, we can't hire the people, they're not available 'cause that 10% just got them all, but we still have the same problems. And how do we operate in a world where we have that multi-cloud type of a problem, but we can't find the people. Now you got to figure out more of the no-code, low-code packaged solutions, packaged automation coming from companies like Dell and others. >> So there's customers that are either at the beginning of their journey are not convinced yet. What are some of the barriers that they're seeing that Dell can help them overcome? >> Number one thing, education. >> Lisa: Really? >> We're hearing that consistently here at KubeCon and just customer meetings all over the place. There is a segment of the industry that they're empowered to move into a DevOps model. They don't have the ability or resources. They're not able to say, I've been doing this forever in this way in storage. How do I do that in another thing? And they're scared. They want somebody to come in and kind of handhold them a little bit, but somebody they trust. Somebody they've been working with for a very long time. That's Dell's role. Hands-on labs, training materials, how-to videos, but do it in the comfortable way that they feel like, okay we got this. >> And the success with the customers has been that well-documented. The success with the company, again, continues to survive and thrive in all conditions. So Michael Dell knows what he's doing. Love following his strategy. Michael, if you're watching, I know he watches theCUBE video, congratulations. But now the hard question for Dell is this, the applications used to run on PCs, now they're running PCs under the covers and servers. The application space here at this community is enabled by Kubernetes, is creating a new application runtime like environment. I like, compared to the old app server days when things were like just application specific, development got easier. We're in that renaissance now where the app runtime is being enabled by Kubernetes. You guys been there, done that in the old school, now the new school. What's your view on this Kubernetes? What's Dell's view on? >> Yeah, so back to Kubernetes won in my head. It's just flat out won and part of the reason, and it beat out a lot of things. You remember Cloud Foundry, which there's still a thing, but Cloud Foundry went a little too far up into the application stack and constrained the application developers a bit too much. Kubernetes success is two things. It's because they're not constraining the developer, but they're also figuring out how to enable that IT operations mindset. And they become that happy medium that's out there. So now all of a sudden, application modernization conversations and cloud-native app development, there is a standard package. There's standard load balancing and security paradigm, standard registration mechanisms, all built into the Kubernetes layer, by the way, enabled by an ecosystem. And because they're actually going through that, what's happening now is we can finally move forward. We can take that next step and we can build around that ecosystem of Kubernetes. >> That is thematically something that we've been hearing, John, for the last day and a half is the maturation of Kubernetes People, what's next? We are ready for the next step. Talk about Dell as an enabler of that. >> Yeah, so a funny, another part of that paradigm is Kubernetes does not equal virtualization. And this is a hard one in this industry right now. A lot of people say, well, yeah, we did the VMware pivot and then the KVM and everything else and they're like, this is just another one of those pivots. I'm like, no it's not. Virtualization was the pivot of physical hardware became virtual hardware, but you still thought of it in CPU memory disc and you managed it in the same way. Kubernetes, it's a such a different way of thinking about operationalization and all that abstraction that what we're realizing is people need to take baby steps into Kubernetes right now. The maturity of it is great because there is an ecosystem around it, but the majority of the industry isn't even aware of the basics of Kubernetes right now. So our job, we look at it as the education part, but also can we deliver the solutions together with the OpenShift's of the world and the Tanzu's of the world and the Rancher's of the world. Can we deliver more of that full stack experience going into the next few years? That's where we believe we can help accelerate them. Education and that delivery mechanism. >> And the community support is going to be there too. You got to have the. >> 100%. >> The community, not just education, which you guys done before, but doing it with open source vibe. >> That's where DevRel comes in. So the DevRel half of my world now is all about Dell in the community. And to be part of community isn't just to say, Hey, I'm going to go sponsor something. That's not community to me. >> It doesn't hurt. >> It doesn't hurt, but we're going to do that. We're definitely going to help with that. What our notion is you got to participate, you got to contribute, you got to be there, you got to be part of the community. That's part of my developer relations team is to become part of it. >> You got to be part of it and belong. Belonging is earning. >> Brad: Yes. >> And that's the key. And the other thing we were talking about standards and Dell has won a lot of business 'cause the PC and the servers all had standards, standard components. Standards now in the community are being driven by developer consensus. >> Brad: Yes. >> So that is an interesting new paradigm. So if you make cloud native work where all the hardware and software that's powering the builders is invisible. The developers will tell you what they want. >> 100%. >> And that's why your Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry example is so on point. It's a little bit nuanced, but what happened there is, let's explain Kubernetes was loosely de facto enabling. They didn't try to take too much territory. They didn't over push. >> Brad: Exactly. >> They were very flexible, lightweight at first, but it was enabling. >> It was organic. >> And we called it on theCUBE, I'm not going to lie, we called that early on. So props to us. >> Brad: Good job. >> Pat on the back. >> Lisa: Pat your own back. >> We get it right a lot. But now there's impact though. But the Dell I think speaks to the theme here, which just we talked is that you got startups here. We had from Envoy, we saw the donator there. He started his own company. You got Dell, which has large enterprises running massive workloads with a lot of legacy and modernization. So you got a combination of both coming together. This is going to be a collision of innovation. >> Oh I look, that's exactly right. Part of what I've been getting is not just the end users, the infrastructure developers, and whatnot around here. Startups look, come to Dell, and they're like, why are you here? Like we build this and we don't talk to you. And we're like, why not? If we come to market and start delivering more of those Kubernetes oriented solutions and the Kubernetes stack experience, that's where you guys should be working with us. You're part of the ecosystem. >> Well, your job is to say to them, look it when you want to write your software for the edge and we have market share of the most hardware at the edge, 'cause we perform better on the edge. No one wants to write software on the slower platform. >> No. >> Name me one I want to write software that's just, this is something, but people don't understand that's why you're here. >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> The game is about performance. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Cloud can do it, you can do it with a machine. So it depends where in the distributed computing chain you're at. >> You bring up one topic that actually isn't a core discussion topic around DevOps, but I am seeing more HPC and a AI/ML conversations popping up in this DevOps cloud native space. 'Cause even the market of HPC, which is a very traditional market, commodity server driven in the past, they're starting to say, how do I take advantage of Kubernetes and all of the benefits that we've been talking about. >> What are some of the things that you've heard like in your sense is the key theme or the talk track of Kubernetes, its evolution? What's on the developer's minds the last day and a half at this conference? >> Oh, okay. That's a hard question, but a good one. So the way I look at it is probably it's the robustness of the features within Kubernetes, not the native features, but even partner included features. They just want to be able to handle security in a much more, I hate to say zero trust, but secure cloud native way. There's tools in the Kubernetes ecosystem that are so integrated into Kubernetes. They don't have to think sometimes as much about how do they do it themselves. They can go find through open source or off-the-shelf startup and say, I need that and I can spin it up in about five minutes and now I'm doing that without having to spend weeks or months and having to build that. And that's security is one example. You can go through the networking discussion, you can go through so many different areas. The fact is because of community and the ecosystem, that is the winning formula for Kubernetes to enable the development. That's all I'm hearing here is they're like, give me more, give me more startups, give me more of these technologies. >> And ease of use has been a big topic here. We've been talking before we came on camera about VMware has done great since it used the virtual machine example versus Kubernetes. That is millions of developers and operators on VMware. They have about 200,000 plus just in VMUG alone. So they are going to transform their careers. They're looking for a home. They're looking for a community for the next 10 years. I mean, VMware will still be around with Broadcom, but I'm speculating that it will be much more in maintenance mode. But to get someone's career in fourth gear, fifth gear, you got to go and get that next skill set, and that's the question. Where do all these operators, IT operators go to become enterprise operators? >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> That is a big topic. What's your reaction? >> Sp I'm actually a living proof of that. I grew up in the VMware ecosystem. And for me making that pivot, it took me many years. One of the ways I did that was I actually have run in Dell, our advanced development pivotal Dojos, if you remember Pivotal. >> Yes. >> And doing the Pair Programming in Agile. It took me that mental shift to say, okay, we were doing it that way and now there's a new way to do it through code with developers and using all the new buzzwords. And that pivot is different for somebody that's just starting now, and they don't have access to a Dojo that they can go handle like a whole bunch of pair programmers. How do they make that pivot? That's 100% what we have to do. >> Okay, so my question is this, this is a hard question for you, maybe you can answer or not or maybe you can. What's different now than the attempt in the past from Dell EMC to do work or align with the developers? I think, was it five, six years ago, it was an effort. Was it timing? What's different now from then? >> So that attempt was awesome. That team was great. I was very close to that team and that was from the EMC side originally is where they have built that out. And the notion of that was that we just have to go start contributing knowledge and technology into the community and start really taking the brand and trying to expand the brand to be relevant in that community. Nothing wrong. That was actually an amazing way they did it. I think through the merger there was definitely a little bit of, okay, well, maybe this isn't one of our top priorities right now and that's probably what happened through the actual merger. >> John: It's a little bit distraction. >> It was distraction. >> Timings wasn't as good now. >> You try merging a 67 billion merger. I mean it's just really hard to do. What happened here is I think we finally got past a lot of that with the merger and now we're in steady stage/growth mode, which is a notion that now we can go and do this again in the new world, taking our lessons learned from what we did before, and try to actually go and update that in these new power apps. >> And you could point to some specific timing issues. Like at that time this community wasn't as advanced along. Kubernetes wasn't as clear. Visibility to that value proposition. Although a lot of people were speculating what happened that way. >> Exactly. >> But now with multi-cloud, I think developers starting to see the reality that it ain't going to be one cloud. >> Well, multi-cloud is not one cloud, so 100%. >> Well, I mean there's multi-cloud today, but it's really not multi-cloud by the way it could be. The people have multiple clouds. I think that gives developers comfort that existing enterprise players. Remember Microsoft wasn't really in the cloud game six, seven years ago. Look where they are now. Significant progress, nipping at the heels of AWS. So all the enterprise players are back at the table. >> Brad: Yeah, definitely. We're here. >> And that's timing issue. >> We're here. >> Talk about, you're here, you are helping customers get to the basics of Kubernetes. You talked a lot about the importance of the education. >> Brad: Yes. >> That screams to me that Dell can be a facilitator of cultural change within organizations, whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer or whatnot. Another thing that I'm curious about, what you guys are doing, how you've evolved, Dell is a massive partner ecosystem. How is the partner ecosystem involved in helping customers build their DevOps portfolios and really start embracing, understanding, and learning about Kubernetes? >> So that's an ever changing world right now. And that's part of why we're here at KubeCon is to help expand that. We have a very, very strong partner community. Not even just channel, but like technology partner community. And our goal is to understand with our DevOps portfolio what needs to be the next step of that partner community. Do we have to go partner up with like the, I'll use examples, the Solo.io. Do we have to partner up with all the mesh companies, the HashiCorp, which we are, We have to understand where the layers that make sense and where don't. There are some that don't make sense because they're so often to an app developer land or they're so far above even Kubernetes sometimes that maybe they don't make sense in our partner community. >> How influential are, I know we got to go soon, but how influential are your customers in helping to make some of those decisions? It's all about the customer at the end of the day. >> They're the only one that's deciding for us. They have to come to us. We have to see the need. We have to understand the discussions through our sales mechanisms, our other mechanisms. We're using that data every single day, every hour to make those decisions. >> Awesome. Brad, it's been great to have you. Sorry we took more of your time than we planned, but it was so interesting. >> No, this is awesome. >> Dell at KubeCon, you've done a great job of explaining why that absolutely resonates, the relevance, and why customers should be looking at Dell as their partner for this. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. >> Thank you guys. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit, Michigan. Stick around, our next guest will be here in just a minute. (gentle music)

>>Hey guys. Welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here live with the cube at Coan Cloud Native Con North America. John, it's been a great day. This is day one of our coverage of three days of coverage. Kubernetes is growing up. Yeah, it's maturing. >>Yeah. We got three days of wall to wall coverage, all about Kubernetes. We about security, large scale, cloud native at scale. That's the big focus. This next segment's gonna be really awesome. You have a fast growing private company and a practitioner, big name, blue chip practitioner, building out next NextGen Cloud first, transforming, then building out the next level. This is classic of what we call super cloud-like, like interview. It's gonna be great. I'm looking forward >>To this anytime we can talk about Super Cloud. All right, please welcome back. One of our alumni, Bani is here, the CEO of Rafe. Great to see you Santos. Ula also joins us, the global head of Cloud SRE at Mass Mutual. Ge. Great to have you on the program. Thanks >>For having us. Thank you for having me. >>So Steve, you've been on the queue many times. You were on just recently with the momentum that that's around us today with the maturation of Kubernetes, the collaboration of the community, the recognition of the community. What are some of the things that you're excited about with on, on day one of the show? >>Wow, so many new companies. I mean, there are companies that I don't know who are here. And I, I, I live in this industry and I'm seeing companies that I don't know, which is a good thing. I mean, it means that the, the community's growing. But at the same time, I'm also seeing another thing, which is I have met more enterprise representatives at this show than other coupons. Like when we hung out at, you know, in Valencia for example, or even, you know, other places. It hasn't been this many people, which means, and this is, this is a good thing that enterprises are now taking Kubernetes seriously. It's not a toy. It's not just for developers. It's enterprises who are now investing in Kubernetes as a foundational component, right. For their applications going forward. And that to me is very, very good. >>Definitely becoming foundational. >>Yep. Well, you guys got a great traction. We had many interviews at the Cube and you got a practitioner here with you. You guys are both pioneering kind of what I call the next gen cloud. First you gotta get through gen one, which you guys done at Mass Mutual, extremely well, take us through the story of your transformation. Cause you're on the, at the front end now of that next inflection point. But take us through how you got here. You had a lot of transformation success at Mass Mutual. >>So I was actually talking about this topic few, few minutes back, right? And, and the whole cloud journey in big companies, large financial institutions, healthcare industry or, or our insurance sector. It takes generations of leadership to get, to get to that perfection level. And, and ideally the, the, the cloud for strategy starts in, and then, and then how do you, how do you standardize and optimize cloud, right? You know, that that's, that's the second gen altogether. And then operationalization of the cloud. And especially if, you know, if you're talking about Kubernetes, you know, in the traditional world, you know, almost every company is running middleware and their applications in middleware. And then containerization is a topic that come, that came in. And docker is, is you know, basically the runtime containerization. So that came in first and from Docker, you know, eventually when companies started adopting Docker, Docker Swarm is one of the technologies that they adopted. And eventually when, when, when we were taking it to a more complicated application implementations or modernization efforts, that's when Kubernetes played a key role. And, and Hasi was pointing out, you know, like you never saw so many companies working on Kubernetes. So that should tell you one story, right? How fast Kubernetes is growing and how important it is for your cloud strategy. So, >>And your success now, and what are you thinking about now? What's on your agenda now as you look forward? What's on your plate? What are you guys doing right now? >>So we are, we are past the stage of, you know, proof of concepts, proof of technologies, pilot implementations. We are actually playing it, you know, the real game now. So in the past I used the quote, you know, like, hello world to real world. So we are actually playing in the real world, not, not in the hello world anymore. Now, now this is where the real time challenges will, will pop up, right? So if you're talking about standardizing it and then optimizing the cloud and how do you put your governance structure in place? How do you make sure your regulations are met? You know, the, the, the demands that come out of regulations are met and, and how, how are you going to scale it and, and, and while scaling, however you wanna to keep up with all the governance and regulations that come with it. So we are in that stage today. >>Has Steve talked about, you talked about the great evolution of what's going on at Mass Mutual has talked a little bit about who, you mentioned one of the things that's surprising you about this Coan and Detroit is that you're seeing a lot more enterprise folks here who, who's deciding in the organization and your customer conversations, Who are the deci decision makers in terms of adoption of Kubernetes these days? Is that elevating? >>Hmm. Well this guy, >>It's usually, you know, one of the things I'm seeing here, and John and I have talked about this in the past, this idea of a platform organization and enterprises. So consistently what I'm seeing is, you know, somebody, a cto, CIO level, you know, individual is making a determin decision. I have multiple internal buss who are now modernizing applications. They're individually investing in DevOps. And this is not a good investment for my business. I'm going to centralize some of this capability so that we can all benefit together. And that team is essentially a platform organization and they're making Kubernetes a shared services platform so that everybody else can come and, and, and sort of, you know, consume it. So what that means to us is our customer is a platform organization and their customer is a developer. So we have to make two constituencies successful. Our customer who's providing a multi-tenant platform, and then their customer who's a developer, both have to be happy. If you don't solve for both, you know, constituencies, you're not gonna be >>Successful. You're targeting the builder of the infrastructure and the consumer of that infrastructure. >>Yes sir. It has to be both. Exactly. Right. Right. So, so that look, honestly, that it, it, you know, it takes iterations to figure these things out, right? But this is a consistent theme that I am seeing. In fact, what I would argue now is that every enterprise should be really stepping back and thinking about what is my platform strategy. Cuz if you don't have a platform strategy, you're gonna have a bunch of different teams who are doing different things and some will be successful and look, some will not be. And that is not good for business. >>Yeah. And, and stage, I wanna get to you, you mentioned that your transformation was what you look forward and your title, global head of cloud sre. Okay, so sre, we all know came from Google, right? Everyone wants to be like Google, but no one wants to be like Google, right? And no one is Google, Google's a unique thing. It's only one Google. But they had the dynamic and the power dynamic of one person to large scale set of servers or infrastructure. But concept is, is, is can be portable, but, but the situation isn't. So board became Kubernetes, that's inside baseball. So you're doing essentially what Google did at their scale you're doing for Mass Mutual. That's kind of what's happening. Is that kind of how I see it? And you guys are playing in there partnering. >>So I I totally agree. Google introduce, sorry, Ty engineering. And, and if you take, you know, the traditional transformation of the roles, right? In the past it was called operations and then DevOps ops came in and then SRE is is the new buzzword. And the future could be something like product engineering, right? And, and, and in this journey, you know, here is what I tell, you know, folks on my side like what worked for Google might not work for a financial company, might not work for an insurance company. So, so, so it's, it's okay to use the word sre, but but the end of the day that SRE has to be tailored down to, to your requirements and and, and the customers that you serve and the technology that you serve. Yep. >>And this is, this is why I'm coming back, this platform engineering. At the end of the day, I think SRE just translates to, you're gonna have a platform engineering team cuz you gotta enable developers to be producing more code faster, better, cheaper guardrails policy. So this, it's kind of becoming the, you serve the business, which is now the developers it used to serve the business Yep. Back in the old days. Hey, the, it serves the business. Yep. Which is a terminal, >>Which is actually true >>Now it the new, it serves the developers, which is the business. Which is the business. Because if digital transformation goes to completion, the company is the app. Yep. >>And the, you know, the, the hard line between development and operations, right? So, so that's thining down over the time, you know, like that that line might disappear. And, and, and that's where asari is fitting in. >>Yeah. And they're building platforms to scale the enablement up that what is, so what is the key challenges you guys are, are both building out together this new transformational direction? What's new and what's the same, The same is probably the business results, but what's the new dynamic involved in rolling it out and making people successful? You got the two constituents, the builders of the infrastructures and the consumers of the services on the other side. What's the new thing? >>So the new thing if, if I may go fast these, so the faster market to, you know, value, right? That we are bringing to the table. That's, that's very important. You know, business has an idea. How do you get that idea implemented in terms of technology and, and take it into real time. So that journey we have cut down, right? Technology is like Kubernetes. It makes, it makes, you know, an IT person's life so easy that, that they can, they can speed up the process in, in, in a traditional way. What used to take like an year or six months can be done in a month today or or less than that, right? So, so there's definitely the losses, speed, velocity, agility in general, and then flexibility. And then the automation that we put in, especially if you have to maintain like thousands of clusters, you know, these, these are today like, you know, it is possible to, to make that happen with a click off a button. In the past it used to take like, you know, probably, you know, a hundred, a hundred percent team and operational team to do it. And a lot of time. But, but, but that automation is happening. You know, and we can get into the technology as much as possible. But, but, you know, blueprinting and all that stuff made >>It possible. Well say that for another interview, we'll do it take time. >>But the, the end user on the other end, the consumer doesn't have the patience that they once had. Right? Right. It's, I want this in my lab now. Now, how does the culture of Mass Mutual, how is it evolv to be able to deliver the velocity that your customers are demanding? >>So if once in a while, you know, it's important to step yourself into the customer's shoes and think it from their, from their, from their perspective, business does not care how you're running your IT shop. What they care about is your stability of the product and the efficiencies of the product and, and, and how, how, how easy it is to reach out to the customers and how well we are serving the customers, right? So whether I'm implementing Docker in the background, Dr. Swam or es you know, business doesn't even care about it. What they really care about it is if your environment goes down, it's a problem. And, and, and if you, if your environment or if your solution is not as efficient as the business needs, that's the problem, right? So, so at that point, the business will step in. So our job is to make sure, you know, from an, from a technology perspective, how fast you can make implement it and how efficiently you can implement it. And at the same time, how do you play within the guardrails of security and compliance. >>So I was gonna ask you if you have VMware in your environment, cause a lot of clients compare what vCenter does for Kubernetes is really needed. And I think that's what you guys got going on. I I can say that you're the v center of Kubernetes. I mean, as a, as an as an metaphor, a place to manage it all is all 1, 1 1 paint of glass, so to speak. Is that how you see success in your environment? >>So virtualization has gone a long way, you know where we started, what we call bare metal servers, and then we virtualized operating systems. Now we are virtualizing applications and, and we are virtualizing platforms as well, right? So that's where Kubernetes basically got. >>So you see the need for a vCenter like thing for Uber, >>Definitely a need in the market in the way you need to think is like, you know, let's say there is, there is an insurance company who actually mented it and, and they gain the market advantage. Right? Now the, the the competition wants to do it as well, right? So, so, so there's definitely a virtualization of application layer that, that, that's very critical and it's, it's a critical component of cloud strategy as >>A whole. See, you're too humble to say it. I'll say you like the V center of Kubernetes, Explain what that means and your turn. If I said that to you, what would you react? How would you react to that? Would say bs or would you say on point, >>Maybe we should think about what does vCenter do today? Right? It's, it's so in my opinion, by the way, well vCenter in my opinion is one of the best platforms ever built. Like ha it's the best platform in my opinion ever built. It's, VMware did an amazing job because they took an IT engineer and they made him now be able to do storage management, networking management, VMs, multitenancy, access management audit, everything that you need to run a data center, you can do from a single, essentially single >>Platform, from a utility standpoint home >>Run. It's amazing, right? Yeah, it is because you are now able to empower people to do way more. Well why are we not doing that for Kubernetes? So the, the premise man Rafa was, well, oh, bless, I should have IT engineers, same engineers now they should be able to run fleets of clusters. That's what people that mass major are able to do now, right? So to that end, now you need cluster management, you need access management, you need blueprinting, you need policy management, you need ac, you know, all of these things that have happened before chargebacks, they used to have it in, in V center. Now they need to happen in other platforms. But for es so should do we do many of the things that vCenter does? Yes. >>Kind >>Of. Yeah. Are we a vCenter for es? Yeah, that is a John Forer question. >>All right, well, I, I'll, the speculation really goes back down to the earlier speed question. If you can take away the, the complexity and not make it more steps or change a tool chain or do something, then the devs move faster and the service layer that serves the business, the new organization has to enable speed. So this, this is becoming a, a real discussion point in the industry is that, oh yeah, we've got new tool, look at the shiny new toy. But if it doesn't move the needle, does it help productivity for developers? And does it actually scale up the enablement? That's the question. So I'm sure you guys are thinking about this a lot, what's your reaction? >>Yeah, absolutely. And one thing that just, you know, hit my mind is think about, you know, the hoteling industry before Airbnb and after Airbnb, right? Or, or, or the taxi industry, you know, before Uber and after Uber, right? So if I'm providing a platform, a Kubernetes platform for my application folks or for my application partners, they have everything ready. All they need to do is like, you know, build their application and deployed and running, right? They, they, they don't have to worry about provisioning of the servers and then building the middleware on top of it and then, you know, do a bunch of testing to make sure, you know, they, they, they iron out all the, all the compatible issues and whatnot. Yeah. Now, now, today, all I, all I say is like, hey, you have, we have a platform built for you. You just build your application and then deploy it in a development environment. That's where you put all the pieces of puzzle together, make sure you see your application working, and then the next thing that, that you do is like, you know, you know, build >>Production, chip, build production, go and chip release it. Yeah, that's the nirvana. But then we're there. I mean, we're there now we're there. So we see the future. Because if you, if that's the case, then the developers are the business. They have to be coding more features, they have to react to customers. They might see new business opportunities from a revenue standpoint that could be creatively built, got low code, no code, headless systems. These things are happening where this I call the architectural list environment where it's like, you don't need architecture, it's already happening. >>Yeah. And, and on top of it, you know, if, if someone has an idea, they want to implement an idea real quick, right? So how do you do it? Right? And, and, and you don't have to struggle building an environment to implement your idea and testers in real time, right? So, so from an innovation perspective, you know, agility plays a key role. And, and that, that's where the Kubernetes platforms or platforms like Kubernetes >>Plays. You know, Lisa, when we talked to Andy Chasy, when he was the CEO of aws, either one on one or on the cube, he always said, and this is kind of happening, companies are gonna be builders where it's not just utility. You need that table stakes to enable that new business idea. And so he, this last keynote, he did this big thing like, you know, think like your developers are the next entrepreneurial revenue generators. And I think that, I think starting to see that, what do you think about that? You see that coming sooner than later? Or is that in, in sight or is that still ways away? >>I, I think it's already happening at a level, at a certain level now. Now the question comes back to, you know, taking it to the reality, right? Yeah. I mean, you can, you can do your proof of concept, proof of technologies, and then, and then prove it out. Like, Hey, I got a new idea. This idea is great. Yeah. And, and it's to the business advantage, right? But we really want to see it in production live where your customers are actually >>Using it and the board meetings, Hey, we got a new idea that came in, generating more revenue, where'd that come from? Agile developer. Again, this is real. Yeah, >>Yeah. >>Absolutely agree. Yeah. I think, think both of you gentlemen said a word in, in your, as you were talking, you used the word guardrails, right? I think, you know, we're talking about rigidity, but you know, the really important thing is, look, these are enterprises, right? They have certain expectations. Guardrails is key, right? So it's automation with the guardrails. Yeah. Guardrails are like children, you know, you know, shouldn't be hurt. You know, they're seen but not hurt. Developers don't care about guard rails. They just wanna go fast. They also bounce >>Around a little bit. Yeah. Off the guardrails. >>One thing we know that's not gonna slow down is, is the expectations, right? Of all the consumers of this, the Ds the business, the, the business top line, and of course the customers. So the ability to, to really, as your website says, let's see, make life easy for platform teams is not trivial. And clearly what you guys are talking about here is you're, you're really an enabler of those platform teams, it sounds like to me. Yep. So, great work, guys. Thank you so much for both coming on the program, talking about what you're doing together, how you're seeing the, the evolution of Kubernetes, why, and really what the focus should be on those platform games. We appreciate all your time and your insights. >>Thank you so much for having us. Thanks >>For our pleasure. For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live, Cobe Con, Cloud Native con from Detroit. We've out with our next guest in just a minute, so stick around.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, guys. Welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here live with "theCUBE" at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America. John, it's been a great day. This is day one of our coverage of three days of coverage. Kubernetes is growing up. It's maturing. >> Yeah, we got three days of wall-to-wall coverage, all about Kubernetes. We heard about Security, Large scale, Cloud native at scale. That's the big focus. This next segment's going to be really awesome. You have a fast growing private company and a practitioner, big name, blue chip practitioner, building out next-gen cloud. First transforming, then building out the next level. This is classic, what we call Super Cloud-Like interview. It's going to be great. I'm looking forward to this. >> Anytime we can talk about Super Cloud, right? Please welcome back, one of our alumni, Haseeb Budhani is here, the CEO of Rafay. Great to see you. Santhosh Pasula, also joins us, the global head of Cloud SRE at Mass Mutual. Guys, great to have you on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, Haseeb, you've been on "theCUBE" many times. You were on just recently, with the momentum that's around us today with the maturation of Kubernetes, the collaboration of the community, the recognition of the community. What are some of the things that you're excited about with on day one of the show? >> Wow, so many new companies. I mean, there are companies that I don't know who are here. And I live in this industry, and I'm seeing companies that I don't know, which is a good thing. It means that the community's growing. But at the same time, I'm also seeing another thing, which is, I have met more enterprise representatives at this show than other KubeCons. Like when we hung out at in Valencia, for example, or even other places, it hasn't been this many people. Which means, and this is a good thing that enterprises are now taking Kubernetes seriously. It's not a toy. It's not just for developers. It's enterprises who are now investing in Kubernetes as a foundational component for their applications going forward. And that to me is very, very good. >> Definitely, becoming foundational. >> Haseeb: Yeah. >> Well, you guys got a great traction. We had many interviews at "theCUBE," and you got a practitioner here with you guys, are both pioneering, kind of what I call the next-gen cloud. First you got to get through Gen-One, which you guys done at Mass Mutual extremely well. Take us through the story of your transformation? 'Cause you're on at the front end now of that next inflection point. But take us through how you got here? You had a lot of transformation success at Mass Mutual? >> So, I was actually talking about this topic few minutes back. And the whole cloud journey in big companies, large financial institutions, healthcare industry or insurance sector, it takes generations of leadership to get to that perfection level. And ideally, the cloud for strategy starts in, and then how do you standardize and optimize cloud, right? That's the second-gen altogether, and then operationalization of the cloud. And especially if you're talking about Kubernetes, in the traditional world, almost every company is running middleware and their applications in middleware. And their containerization is a topic that came in. And Docker is basically the runtime containerization. So, that came in first, and from Docker, eventually when companies started adopting Docker, Docker Swarm is one of the technologies that they adopted. And eventually, when we were taking it to a more complicated application implementations or modernization efforts, that's when Kubernetes played a key role. And as Haseeb was pointing out, you never saw so many companies working on Kubernetes. So, that should tell you one story, right? How fast Kubernetes is growing, and how important it is for your cloud strategy. >> And your success now, and what are you thinking about now? What's on your agenda now? As you look forward, what's on your plate? What are you guys doing right now? >> So we are past the stage of proof of concepts, proof of technologies, pilot implementations. We are actually playing it, the real game now. In the past, I used the quote, like "Hello world to real world." So, we are actually playing in the real world, not in the hello world anymore. Now, this is where the real time challenges will pop up. So, if you're talking about standardizing it, and then optimizing the cloud, and how do you put your governance structure in place? How do you make sure your regulations are met? The demands that come out of regulations are met? And how are you going to scale it? And while scaling, how are you going to keep up with all the governance and regulations that come with it? So we are in that stage today. >> Haseeb talked about, you talked about the great evolution of what's going on at Mass Mutual. Haseeb talk a little bit about who? You mentioned one of the things that's surprising you about this KubeCon in Detroit, is that you're seeing a lot more enterprise folks here? Who's deciding in the organization and your customer conversations? Who are the decision makers in terms of adoption of Kubernetes these days? Is that elevating? >> Hmm. Well, this guy. (Lisa laughing) One of the things I'm seeing here, and John and I have talked about this in the past, this idea of a platform organization and enterprises. So, consistently what I'm seeing, is somebody, a CTO, CIO level, an individual is making a decision. I have multiple internal Bus who are now modernizing applications. They're individually investing in DevOps, and this is not a good investment for my business. I'm going to centralize some of this capability so that we can all benefit together. And that team is essentially a platform organization. And they're making Kubernetes a shared services platform so that everybody else can come and sort of consume it. So, what that means to us, is our customer is a platform organization, and their customer is a developer. So we have to make two constituencies successful. Our customer who's providing a multi-tenant platform, and then their customer, who's your developer, both have to be happy. If you don't solve for both, you know, constituencies, you're not going to be successful. >> So, you're targeting the builder of the infrastructure and the consumer of that infrastructure? >> Yes, sir. It has to be both. >> On the other side? >> Exactly, right. So that look, honestly, it takes iteration to figure these things out. But this is a consistent theme that I am seeing. In fact, what I would argue now, is that every enterprise should be really stepping back and thinking about what is my platform strategy? Because if you don't have a platform strategy, you're going to have a bunch of different teams who are doing different things, and some will be successful, and look, some will not be. And that is not good for business. >> Yeah, and Santhosh, I want to get to you. You mentioned your transformations, what you look forward, and your title, Global Head of Cloud, SRE. Okay, so SRE, we all know came from Google, right? Everyone wants to be like Google, but no one wants to be like Google, right? And no one is Google. Google's a unique thing. >> Haseeb: Only one Google. >> But they had the dynamic and the power dynamic of one person to large scale set of servers or infrastructure. But concept can be portable, but the situation isn't. So, Borg became Kubernetes, that's inside baseball. So, you're doing essentially what Google did at their scale, you're doing for Mass Mutual. That's kind of what's happening, is that kind of how I see it? And you guys are playing in there partnering? >> So, I totally agree. Google introduce SRE, Site Reliability Engineering. And if you take the traditional transformation of the roles, in the past, it was called operations, and then DevOps ops came in, and then SRE is the new buzzword. And the future could be something like Product Engineering. And in this journey, here is what I tell folks on my side, like what worked for Google might not work for a financial company. It might not work for an insurance company. It's okay to use the word, SRE, but end of the day, that SRE has to be tailored down to your requirements. And the customers that you serve, and the technology that you serve. >> This is why I'm coming back, this platform engineering. At the end of the day, I think SRE just translates to, you're going to have a platform engineering team? 'Cause you got to enable developers to be producing more code faster, better, cheaper, guardrails, policies. It's kind of becoming the, these serve the business, which is now the developers. IT used to serve the business back in the old days, "Hey, the IT serves the business." >> Yup. >> Which is a term now. >> Which is actually true now. >> The new IT serves the developers, which is the business. >> Which is the business. >> Because if digital transformation goes to completion, the company is the app. >> The hard line between development and operations, so that's thinning down. Over the time, that line might disappear. And that's where SRE is fitting in. >> Yeah, and then building platform to scale the enablement up. So, what is the key challenges? You guys are both building out together this new transformational direction. What's new and what's the same? The same is probably the business results, but what's the new dynamic involved in rolling it out and making people successful? You got the two constituents, the builders of the infrastructures and the consumers of the services on the other side. What's the new thing? >> So, the new thing, if I may go first. The faster market to value that we are bringing to the table, that's very important. Business has an idea. How do you get that idea implemented in terms of technology and take it into real time? So, that journey we have cut down. Technology is like Kubernetes. It makes an IT person's life so easy that they can speed up the process. In a traditional way, what used to take like an year, or six months, can be done in a month today, or less than that. So, there's definitely speed velocity, agility in general, and then flexibility. And then the automation that we put in, especially if you have to maintain like thousands of clusters. These are today, it is possible to make that happen with a click off a button. In the past, it used to take, probably, 100-person team, and operational team to do it, and a lot of time. But that automation is happening. And we can get into the technology as much as possible, but blueprinting and all that stuff made it possible. >> We'll save that for another interview. We'll do it deep time. (panel laughing) >> But the end user on the other end, the consumer doesn't have the patience that they once had, right? It's, "I want this in my lab now." How does the culture of Mass Mutual? How is it evolve to be able to deliver the velocity that your customers are demanding? >> Once in a while, it's important to step yourself into the customer's shoes and think it from their perspective. Business does not care how you're running your IT shop. What they care about is your stability of the product and the efficiencies of the product, and how easy it is to reach out to the customers. And how well we are serving the customers, right? So, whether I'm implementing Docker in the background, Docker Swam or Kubernetes, business doesn't even care about it. What they really care about, it is, if your environment goes down, it's a problem. And if your environment or if your solution is not as efficient as the business needs, that's the problem, right? So, at that point, the business will step in. So, our job is to make sure, from a technology perspective, how fast you can make implement it? And how efficiently you can implement it? And at the same time, how do you play within the guardrails of security and compliance? >> So, I was going to ask you, if you have VMware in your environment? 'Cause a lot of clients compare what vCenter does for Kubernetes is really needed. And I think that's what you guys got going on. I can say that, you're the vCenter of Kubernetes. I mean, as as metaphor, a place to manage it all, is all one paint of glass, so to speak. Is that how you see success in your environment? >> So, virtualization has gone a long way. Where we started, what we call bare metal servers, and then we virtualized operating systems. Now, we are virtualizing applications, and we are virtualizing platforms as well, right? So that's where Kubernetes plays a role. >> So, you see the need for a vCenter like thing for Kubernetes? >> There's definitely a need in the market. The way you need to think is like, let's say there is an insurance company who actually implement it today, and they gain the market advantage. Now, the the competition wants to do it as well, right? So, there's definitely a virtualization of application layer that's very critical, and it's a critical component of cloud strategy as a whole. >> See, you're too humble to say it. I'll say, you're like the vCenter of Kubernetes. Explain what that means in your term? If I said that to you, what would you react? How would you react to that? Would you say, BS, or would you say on point? >> Maybe we should think about what does vCenter do today? So, in my opinion, by the way, vCenter in my opinion, is one of the best platforms ever built. Like it's the best platform in my opinion ever built. VMware did an amazing job, because they took an IT engineer, and they made him now be able to do storage management, networking management, VM's multitenancy, access management, audit. Everything that you need to run a data center, you can do from essentially single platform. >> John: From a utility standpoint, home-run? >> It's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Because you are now able to empower people to do way more. Well, why are we not doing that for Kubernetes? So, the premise man Rafay was, well, I should have IT engineers, same engineers. Now, they should be able to run fleets of clusters. That's what people that Mass Mutual are able to do now. So, to that end, now you need cluster management, you need access management, you need blueprinting, you need policy management. All of these things that have happened before, chargebacks, they used to have it in vCenter, now they need to happen in other platforms but for Kubernetes. So, should we do many of the things that vCenter does? Yes. >> John: Kind of, yeah. >> Are we a vCenter for Kubernetes? >> No. >> That is a John Furrier question. >> All right, well, the speculation really goes back down to the earlier speed question. If you can take away the complexity and not make it more steps, or change a tool chain, or do something, then the Devs move faster. And the service layer that serves the business, the new organization, has to enable speed. This is becoming a real discussion point in the industry, is that, "Yeah, we got new tool. Look at the shiny new toy." But if it move the needle, does it help productivity for developers? And does it actually scale up the enablement? That's the question. So, I'm sure you guys are thinking about this a lot. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, absolutely. And one thing that just hit my mind, is think about the hoteling industry before Airbnb and after Airbnb. Or the taxi industry before Uber and after Uber. So, if I'm providing a platform, a Kubernetes platform for my application folks, or for my application partners, they have everything ready. All they need to do is build their application and deploy it, and run it. They don't have to worry about provisioning of the servers, and then building the Middleware on top of it, and then, do a bunch of testing to make sure they iron out all the compatible issues and whatnot. Now, today, all I say is like, "Hey, we have a platform built for you. You just build your application, and then deploy it in a development environment, that's where you put all the pieces of puzzle together. Make sure you see your application working, and then the next thing that you do is like, do the correction. >> John: Shipping. >> Shipping. You build the production. >> John: Press. Go. Release it. (laughs) That when you move on, but they were there. I mean, we're there now. We're there. So, we need to see the future, because that's the case, then the developers are the business. They have to be coding more features, they have to react to customers. They might see new business opportunities from a revenue standpoint that could be creatively built, got low code, no code, headless systems. These things are happening where there's, I call the Architectural List Environment where it's like, you don't need architecture, it's already happening. >> Yeah, and on top of it, if someone has an idea, they want to implement an idea real quick. So, how do you do it? And you don't have to struggle building an environment to implement your idea and test it in real time. So, from an innovation perspective, agility plays a key role. And that's where the Kubernetes platforms, or platforms like Kubernetes plays. >> You know, Lisa, when we talked to Andy Jassy, when he was the CEO of AWS, either one-on-one or on "theCUBE," he always said, and this is kind of happening, "Companies are going to be builders, where it's not just utility, you need that table stakes to enable that new business idea." And so, in this last keynote, he did this big thing like, "Think like your developers are the next entrepreneurial revenue generators." I think I'm starting to see that. What do you think about that? You see that coming sooner than later? Or is that an insight, or is that still ways away? >> I think it's already happening at a level, at a certain level. Now ,the question comes back to, you know, taking it to the reality. I mean, you can do your proof of concept, proof of technologies, and then prove it out like, "Hey, I got a new idea. This idea is great." And it's to the business advantage. But we really want to see it in production live where your customers are actually using it. >> In the board meetings, "Hey, we got a new idea that came in, generating more revenue, where'd that come from?" Agile Developer. Again, this is real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely agree. Yeah, I think both of you gentlemen said a word as you were talking, you used the word, Guardrails. We're talking about agility, but the really important thing is, look, these are enterprises, right? They have certain expectations. Guardrails is key, right? So, it's automation with the guardrails. Guardrails are like children, you know, shouldn't be heard. They're seen but not heard. Developers don't care about guardrails, they just want to go fast. >> They also bounce around a little bit, (laughs) off the guardrails. >> Haseeb: Yeah. >> One thing we know that's not going to slow down, is the expectations, right? Of all the consumers of this, the Devs, the business, the business top line, and, of course, the customers. So, the ability to really, as your website says, let's say, "Make Life Easy for Platform Teams" is not trivial. And clearly what you guys are talking about here, is you're really an enabler of those platform teams, it sounds like to me. >> Yup. >> So, great work, guys. Thank you so much for both coming on the program, talking about what you're doing together, how you're seeing the evolution of Kubernetes, why? And really, what the focus should be on those platform teams. We appreciate all your time and your insights. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Our pleasure. For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE" Live, KubeCon CloudNativeCon from Detroit. We'll be back with our next guest in just a minute, so stick around. (bright upbeat music)

>> All right, we'll be back in a moment. We'll have Stephen Manly, the CTO, and Anjan Srinivas, the GM and VP of Product Management will join me. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Ransomware is top of mind for everyone. The attacks are becoming more frequent and more sophisticated. It's a problem you can't solve alone anymore. Ransomware is built to exploit weaknesses in your backup solution, destroying data and your last line of defense. With many vendors, it can take a lot of effort and configuration to ensure your backup environment is secure. Criminals also know that it's easy to fall behind on best practices like vulnerability scans, patches and updates. In fact, 42% of vulnerabilities are exploited after a patch has been released. After an attack, recovery can be a long and manual process that still may not restore clean or complete data. The good news is that you can keep your data safe and recover faster with the Druva data resiliency cloud on your side. The Druva platform functions completely in the cloud with no hardware, software, operating system, or complex configurations. Which means there are none of the weaknesses that ransomware commonly uses to attack backups. Our software is a service model delivers 24/7 365 fully managed security operations for your backup environment. We handle all the vulnerability scans, patches and upgrades for you. Druva also makes zero trust security easy with built in multi-factor authentication, single sign on and roll based access controls. In the event of an attack, Druva helps you stop the spread of ransomware and quickly understand what went wrong with built in access insights and anomaly detection. Then you can use industry first tools and services to automate the recovery of clean unencrypted data from the entire timeframe of the attack. Cyber attacks are a major threat, but you can make protection and recovery easy with Druva. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE special presentation with Druva on Why Ransomware Isn't Your Only Problem. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Our next guest are Stephen Manly's, Chief Technology Officer of Druva and Anjan Srinivas, who is the general manager and Vice President of Product Management at Druva. Gentleman, you got the keys to the kingdom, the technology, ransomware, data resilience. This is the topic the IDC white paper that you guys put together with IDC really kind of nails it out. I want to get into it right away. Welcome to this segment, I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here John. >> So what's your thoughts on the survey's conclusion, obviously, the resilience is huge. Ransomware continues to thunder away at businesses and causes a lot of problems. Disruption, I mean, it's endless ransomware problems. What's your thoughts on the conclusion? >> So I'll say the thing that pops out to me is on the one hand everybody who sees the survey, who reads it's is going to say, well, that's obvious. Of course, ransomware continues to be a problem. Cyber resilience is an issue that's plaguing everybody. But I think when you dig deeper and there's a lot of subtleties to look into. But one of the things that I hear on a daily basis from the customers is it's because the problem keeps evolving. It's not as if the threat was a static thing to just be solved and you're done. Because the threat keeps evolving, it remains top of mind for everybody because it's so hard to keep up with what's happening in terms of the attacks. >> And I think the other important thing to note, John, is that people are grappling with this ransomware attack all of a sudden where they were still grappling with a lot of legacy in their own environment. So they were not prepared for the advanced techniques that these ransomware attackers were bringing to market. It's almost like these ransomware attackers had a huge leg up in terms of technology that they had in their favor while keeping the lights on was keeping it ideally from all the tooling that needed to do. A lot of people are even still wondering when that happens next time what do I even do? So clearly not very surprising. Clearly I think it's here to stay. And I think as long as people don't retool for a modern era of data management, this is going to stay this way. >> Yeah, I mean, I hear this whole time in our CUBE conversations with practitioners. It's kind of like the security program, give me more tools I'll buy anything that comes in the market, I'm desperate. There's definitely attention, but it doesn't seem like people are satisfied with the tooling that they have. Can you guys share kind of your insights into what's going on in the product side because people claim that they have tools at fine points of recovery opportunities but they can't get there. So it seems to be that there's a confidence problem here in the market. How do you guys see that? Because I think this is where the rubber meets the road with ransomware 'cause it is a moving train, it's always changing but it doesn't seem as confidence. Can you guys talk about that? What's your reaction? >> Yeah, let me jump in first and Stephen can add to it. What happens is I think this is a panic buying and they have accumulated this tooling now just because somebody said it could solve your problem. But they haven't had a chance to take a relook from a ground up perspective to see where are the bottlenecks, where are the vulnerabilities and which tooling set needs to lie where, where does the logic need to reside. And what at Druva of we are watching people do and people do it successfully, is that as they have adopted Druva technology which is ground up built for the cloud, and really built in a way which is driven at a data insight level where we have people even monitoring our service for anomalies and activities that are suspicious. We know where we need to play a role in really kind of mitigating this ransomware. And then there is a whole plethora of ecosystem players that kind of combine to really really finish the story so to say, right? So I think this has been a panic buying situation. This is like, get me any help you can give me. And I think as this settles down and people really understand that longer term as they really build out a true defense mechanism, they need to think really ground up. They will start to really see the value of technologies like Druva and try to identify the right set of ecosystem to really bring together to solve it meaningfully. >> I was going to say I mean, one of the really interesting things in this survey for me and for a moment, little more than a moment it made me think was the large number of respondents who said, I've got a really efficient well run back up environment. Who then on basically the next question said, and I have no confidence that I can recover from a ransomware attack. And you scratch your head and you think, well, if your backup environment is so good, why do you have such low confidence? And I think that's the moment when we dug deeper and we realized, if you've got a traditional architecture and let's face it, the disbase architecture has been around for almost two decades now in terms of disbased backup. You can have that tune to the help, that can be running as efficiently as you want it. But it was built before the ransomware attacks, before all these cyber issues really started hitting companies. And so I have this really well run traditional backup environment that is not at all built for these modern threat vectors. And so that's really why customers are saying, I'm doing the best I can, but as Anjan pointed out, the architecture, the tooling isn't there to support what problems I need to solve today. >> Well, that's a great point. And before we get into the customer side I want to get to in second. I interviewed Jaspreet, the founded and CEO many years ago even before the pandemic and you mentioned modern. You guys have always had the cloud with Druva, this is huge. Now that you're past the pandemic, what is that modern cloud edge that you guys have? Because that's a great point. A lot of stuff was built kind of back up and recovery bolted on, not really kind of designed into the current state of the infrastructure and the cloud native application modern environment we're seeing right now is a huge issue. >> I think to me there's three things that come up over and over and over again as we talk to people in terms of being built in cloud, being cloud native, why isn't an advantage? The first one is security and ransomware. And we can go deeper but the most obvious one that always comes up is every single backup you do with Druva is air gapped, offsite, managed under a separate administrative domain so that you're not retrofitting any sort of air gap network and buying another appliance or setting up your own cloud environment to manage this. Every backup is ransomware protected, guaranteed. I think the second advantage is the scalability. And this certainly plays into account as your business grows or in some cases as you shrink or repurpose workloads you're only paying for what you use. But it also plays a big role again when you start thinking of ransomware recoveries because we can scale your recovery in cloud on premises as much or as little as you want. And then I think the third one is we're seeing basically things evolving, new workloads, data sprawl, new threat vectors. And one of the nice parts of being SaaS service in the cloud is you're able to roll out new functionality every two weeks and there's no upgrade cycle, there's no waiting. The customer doesn't have to say, wow, I need it six months in the lab before I upgrade it and it's an 18 month, 24 month cycle before the functionality releases. You're getting it every two weeks and it's backed by Druva to make sure it works. >> That says it. Anjan, you got the product side, it's a challenging job 'cause you have so many customers asking for things probably on the roadmap you probably go hour for that one. But I want to get your thoughts on what you're hearing and seeing from customers. we just reviewed the IDC with Phil. How are you guys responding to your customer's needs? Because it seems that it's highly accelerated probably on the feature request, but also structurally as as ransomware continues to evolve. What are you hearing, what's the key customer need? How are you guys responding? >> Yeah, actually I have two things that I hear very clearly when I talk to customers. One, I think after listening to their security problems and their vulnerability challenges because we see customers and help customers who are getting challenged by ransomware on a weekly basis. And what I find that this problem is not just a technology problem, it's an operating model problem. So in order to really secure themselves, they need a security operating model and a lot of them haven't figured out that security operating model in totality. Now, where we come in as Druva is that we are providing them the cloud operating model and a data protection operating model combined with a data insights operating model which all fit into their overall security operating model that they are really owning and they need to manage and operate. Because this is just not about a piece of technology. On top of that, I think our customers are getting challenged by all the same challenges of not just spending time on keeping the lights on, but innovating faster with less. And that has been this age old problem, do more with less. But in this whole, they're like trying to innovate we're in the middle of the war so to say, right? The war is happening, they're getting attacked, but there's also net new shadow IT challenges that's forcing them to make sure that they can manage all the new applications that are getting developed in the cloud. There is thousands of SaaS applications that they're consuming not knowing which data is critical to their success and which ones to protect and govern and secure. So all of these things are coming at them at 100 miles per hour while they're just trying to live one day at a time. And unless they really develop this overall security operating model helped by cloud native technologies like Druva that is really providing them a true cloud native model of really giving like a touchless and an invisible protection infrastructure not just beyond backups, beyond just the data protection that we all know of into this kind of this mindset of kind of being able to look at where each of those functionalities need to lie. That's where I think they're grappling with. Now Druva is clearly helping them with keep up to pace with the public cloud innovations that they need to do and how to protect data. We just launched our EC2 offering to protect EC2 virtual machines back in AWS. And we are going to be continuing to evolve that to further many services that public cloud software 'cause our customers are really kind of consuming them at breakneck speed. >> So the new workloads, the new security capabilities. Love that, good call out there. Stephen there's still the issue of the disruption side of it. You guys have a guarantee, there's a cost to ownership as you get more tools. Can you talk about that angle of it? Because you got new workloads, you got the new security needs, what's the disruption impact? Because you won't avoid that, how much is it going to cost you? And you guys have this guarantee, can you explain that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So Druva launched our $10 million data resiliency guarantee. And for us, there were really two key parts to this. The first obviously is $10 million means that, again, we're willing to put our money where our mouth is and that's a big deal, right? That we're willing to back this with the guarantee. But then the second part and this is the part that I think reflects that sort of model that Anjan was talking about. We sort of look at this and we say, the goal of Druva is to do the job of protecting and securing your data for you. So that you as a customer don't have to do it anymore. And so the guarantee actually protects you against multiple types of risks all with SLAs. So everything from your data is going to be recoverable in the case of a ransomware attack. Okay, that's good. Of course, for it to be recoverable we're also guaranteeing your backup success rate. We're also guaranteeing the availability of the service. We're guaranteeing that the data that we're storing for you can't be compromised or leaked externally. And we're guaranteeing the long term durability of the data so that if you back up with us today and you need to recover it 30 years from now, that data is going to be recovered. So we wanted to really attack the end to end risks that affect our customers. Cybersecurity is a big deal but it is not the only problem out there. And the only way for this to work is to have a service that can provide you SLAs across all of the risks because that means, again, as a SaaS vendor, we're doing the job for you so you're buying results as opposed to technology. >> That's great point. Ransomware isn't the only problem, that's the title of this presentation. But it's a big one and people concerned about it so great stuff. And the last five minutes guys if you don't mind, I'd love to have you share what's on the horizon for Druva. You mentioned the new workloads Anjan, you mentioned this new security hearing shift left, DevOps is now the developer model, they're running IT. Yet data and security teams now stepping in and trying to be as high velocity as possible for the developers and enterprises. What's on the horizon for Druva? What trends is the company watching and how are you guys putting that together to stay ahead in the marketplace and the competition? >> I think listening to our customers, what we realize is they need help with the public cloud number one. I think that's a big wave of consumption. People are consolidating their data centers moving to the public cloud. They need help in expanding data protection which becomes the basis of a lot of the security operating model that I talked about. They need that first from Druva before they can start to get into much more advanced level of insights and analytics on that data to protect themselves and secure themselves and do interesting things with that data. So we are expanding our coverage on multiple fronts there. The second key thing is to really bring together a very insightful presentation layer which I think is very unique to Druva because only we can look at multiple tenants, multiple customers because we are a SaaS vendor. And look at insights and give them best practices and guidances and analytics that nobody else can give. There's no silo anymore because we are able to take a good big vision view and now help our customers with insights that otherwise that information map is completely missing. So we are able to guide them down a path where they can optimize which workloads need what kind of protection and then how to secure them. So that is the second level of insights and analytics that we are building. And there's a whole plethora of security offerings that we are going to build all the way from a feature level where we have things like recycle bin that's already available to our customers today to prevent any anomalous behavior and attacks that would delete their backups and then they still have a way to recover from it. But also things to curate and get back to that point in time where it is safe to recover and help them with a sandbox which they can recover confidently knowing it's not going to jeopardize them again and reinfect the whole environment again. So there's a whole bunch of things coming, but the key themes are public cloud, data insights and security. And that's where my focus is to go and get those features delivered. And Stephen can add a few more things around services that Stephen is looking to build and launch. >> Sure. So John, I think one of the other areas that we see just an enormous groundswell of interest. So public cloud is important, but there are more and more organizations that are running hundreds if not thousands of SaaS applications. And a lot of those SaaS applications have data. So there's the obvious things like Microsoft 365, Google Workspace, but we're also seeing a lot of interest in protecting Salesforce. Because if you think about it, if someone deletes some really important records in Salesforce, that's actually kind of the record of your business. And so we're looking at one more SaaS application protection and really getting deep in that application awareness. It's not just about backup and recovery. When you look at something like a Salesforce or something like a Microsoft 365, you do want to look into sandboxing, you want to look into long term archival. Because this is the new record of the business, what used to be in your on-premises databases that all lives in cloud and SaaS applications now. So that's a really big area of investment for us. The second one, just to echo what Anjan said is, one of the great things of being a SaaS provider is I have metadata that spans across thousands of customers and tens of billions of backups a year. And I'm tracking all sorts of interesting information that is going to enable us to do things like make backups more autonomous. So that customers, again, I want to do the job for them, we'll do all the tuning, we'll do all the management for them. To be able to better detect ransomware attacks, better respond to ransomware attacks because we're seeing across the globe. And then of course, being able to give them more insight into what's happening in their data environment so they can get a better security posture before any attack happens. Because let's face it, if you can set your data up more cleanly, you're going to be a lot less worried and a lot less exposed when that attack happens. So we want to be able to again, cover those SaaS applications in addition to the public cloud. And then we want to be able to use our metadata and use our analytics and use this massive pipeline we've got to deliver value to our customers. Not just charts and graphs, but actual services that enable them to focus their attention on other parts of the business. >> That's great stuff, Anjan. >> And remember John, I think all this while keeping things really easy to consume, consumer grade UI, APIs. And during the power of SaaS as a service simplicity to kind of continue on amongst kind of keeping these complex technologies together. >> Anjan, that's a great call out. I was going to mention ease of use and self-service, big part of the developer and IT experience expected it's a table stakes, love the analytic angle. I think that brings the scale to the table and faster time to value to get to learn best practices. But at the end of the day, automation, cross cloud protection and security to protect and recover. This is huge and this is a big part of not only just protecting against ransomware and other things, but really being fast and being agile. So really appreciate the insights. Thanks for sharing on this segment, really under the hood and really kind of the value of the product. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay, there it is. You got the experts talk about the hood, the product, the value, the future of what's going on with Druva and the future of cloud native protecting and recovering. This is what it's all about. It's not just ransomware they have to worry about. In a moment, Dave Allante will give you some closing thoughts on the subject here. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> As organizations migrate their business processes to multi-cloud environments, they still face numerous threats and risks of data loss. With a growing number of cloud platforms and fragmented applications, it leads to an increase in data silos, sprawl and management complexity. As workloads become more diverse, it's challenging to effectively manage data growth, infrastructure, and resource costs across multiple cloud deployments. Using numerous backup vendor solutions for multiple cloud platforms can lead to management complexity. More importantly, the lack of centralized visibility and control can leave you exposed to security vulnerabilities, including ransomware that can cripple your business. The Druva data resiliency cloud is the only 100% SaaS data resiliency platform that provides centralized, secure air gapped and immutable backup and recovery. With Druva, your data is safe with multiple layers of protection and is ready for fast recovery from cyber attacks, data corruption, or accidental data loss. Through a simple, easy to manage platform, you can seamlessly protect fragmented, diverse data at scale, across public clouds and your business critical SaaS applications. Druva is the only 100% SaaS vendor that can manage, govern, and protect data across multiple clouds and business critical SaaS applications. It supports not just backup up and recovery, but also data resiliency across high value use cases such as e-discovery, sensitive data governance, ransomware and security. No other vendor can match Druva for customer experience, infinite scale, storage optimization, data immutability and ransomware protection. The Druva data resiliency cloud, your data always safe, always ready. Visit druva.com today to schedule a free demo. (upbeat music) >> One of the big takeaways from today's program is that in the scramble to keep business flowing over the past two plus years, a lot of good technology practices have been put into place. But there's much more work to be done, specifically because the frequency of attacks is on the rise and the severity of lost, stolen or inaccessible data is so much higher today. Business resilience must be designed into architectures and solutions from the start. It cannot be an afterthought. Well, actually it can be, but you won't be happy with the results. Now, part of the answer is finding the right partners, of course, but it also means taking a systems view of your business, understanding the vulnerabilities and deploying solutions that can balance cost efficiency with appropriately high levels of protection, flexibility, and speed/accuracy of recovery. We hope you found today's program useful and informative. Remember, this session is available on demand in both its full format and the individual guest segments. All you got to do is go to thecube.net and you'll see all the content. Or you can go to druva.com. There are tons of resources available including analyst reports, customer stories. There's this cool TCO calculator. You can find out what pricing looks like and lots more. Thanks for watching Why Ransomware Isn't Your Only Problem made possible by Druva. A collaboration with IDC and presented by theCUBE, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> The past 2 1/2 years have seen a dramatic change in the security posture of virtually all organizations. By accelerating the digital business mandate, the isolation economy catalyzed a move toward cloud computing to support remote workers. This we know. This had several ripple effects on CSO and CIO strategies that were highly visible at the Board of Directors' level. Now, the first major change was to recognize that the perimeter had suddenly been vaporized. Protection, as a result, moved away from things like perimeter-based firewalls toward more distributed endpoints, cloud security, and modern identity management. The second major change was a heightened awareness of the realities of ransomware. Ransomware as a service, for example, emerged as a major threat where virtually anyone with access to critical data and criminal intentions could monetize corporate security exposures. The third major change was a much more acute understanding of how data protection needed to become a fundamental component of cybersecurity strategies, and more specifically, CIOs quickly realized that their business resilience strategies were too narrowly DR-focused, that their DR approach was not cost efficient and needed to be modernized, and that new approaches to operational resilience were needed to reflect the architectural and business realities of this new environment. Hello, and welcome to "Why Ransomware isn't Your Only Problem," a service of theCUBE made possible by Druva, and in collaboration with IDC. I'm your host, Dave Vellante, and today, we're presenting a three-part program. We'll start with the data. IDC recently conducted a global survey of 500 business technology practitioners across 20 industries to understand the degree to which organizations are aware of and prepared for the threats they face in today's new world. IDC Research Vice President Phil Goodwin is here to share the highlights of the study and to summarize the findings from a recent research report on the topic. After that, we're going to hear from Curtis Preston, who's the Chief Technical Evangelist at Druva. I've known Curtis for decades. He's one of the world's foremost experts on backup and recovery, specifically, and data protection, generally. Curtis will help us understand how the survey data presented by IDC aligns with the real world findings from the field from his point of view. And he'll discuss why so many organizations have failed to successfully recover from an attack without major pains and big costs, and how to avoid such operational disruptions and disasters. And then finally, we'll hear from the technical experts at Druva, Stephen Manley and Anjan Srinivas. Stephen is a 10-time CUBE alum and Chief Technology Officer at Druva, and Anjan is Vice President and General Manager of Product Management at the company. And these individuals will specifically address how Druva is closing the gaps presented in the IDC survey through their product innovation. But right now I'm going to toss it to Lisa Martin, another one of the hosts for today's program. Lisa, over to you. (upbeat music) >> Bill Goodwin joins me next, the VP of Research at IDC. We're going to be breaking down what's going on in the threat landscape. Phil, welcome to the program. It's great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Hey, Lisa, it's great to be here with you. >> So talk to me about the state of the global IT landscape as we see cyberattacks massively increasing, the threat landscape changing so much. What is IDC seeing? >> You know, you really hit the top topic that we find from IT organizations as well as business organizations. And really, it's that digital resilience, that ransomware that has everybody's attention, and it has the attention, not just of the IT people, but of the business people alike, because it really does have profound effects across the organization. The other thing that we're seeing, Lisa, is really a move towards cloud. And I think part of that is driven by the economics of cloud, which fundamentally changed the way that we can approach disaster recovery, but also has accelerated during the pandemic for all the reasons that people have talked about in terms of work from home and so on. And then really the third thing is the economic uncertainty, and this is relatively new for 2022, but within IDC we've been doing a lot of research around what are those impacts going to be? And what we find people doing is they want greater flexibility, they want more cost certainty, and they really want to be able to leverage those cloud economics to have the scale up or scale down on demand nature of cloud. So those are, in a nutshell, kind of the three things that people are looking at. >> You mentioned ransomware. It's a topic we've been talking about a lot. It's a household word these days. It's now, Phil, no longer if we're going to get attacked, it's when, it's how often, it's the severity. Talk about ransomware as a priority all the way up the stack to the C-suite, and what are they trying to do to become resilient against it? >> Well, what some of the research that we did is we found that about 77% of organizations have digital resilience as a top priority within their organization. And so what you're seeing is organizations trying to leverage things to become more resilient, more digitally resilient, and to be able to really hone in on those kinds of issues that are keeping them awake at night, quite honestly. If you think about digital resilience, it really is foundational to the organization, whether it's through digital transformation or whether it's simply data availability, whatever it might happen to be. Digital resilience is really a large umbrella term that we use to describe that function that is aimed at avoiding data loss, assuring data availability, and helping the organization to extract value from their data. >> And digital resilience, data resilience, as every company these days has to be a data company to be competitive. Digital resilience, data resilience, are you using those terms interchangeably or is data resilience defined as something a little bit different? >> Well, sometimes yeah, we do get caught using them when one is the other. But data resilience is really a part of digital resilience, if you think about the data itself in the context of IT computing. So it really is a subset of that, but it is foundational to IT resilience. You can't have IT resilience without data resilience. So that's where we're coming from on it. >> Inextricably linked, and it's becoming a corporate initiative, but there's some factors that can complicate digital resilience, data resilience for organizations. What are some of those complications that organizations need to be aware of? >> Well, one of the biggest is what you mentioned at the top of the segment, and that is the area of ransomware. The research that we found is about 46% of organizations have been hit within the last three years. You know, it's kind of interesting how it's changed over the years. Originally, being hit by ransomware had a real stigma attached to it. Organizations didn't want to admit it, and they really avoided confronting that. Nowadays, so many people have been hit by it that that stigma has gone. And so really it is becoming more of a community kind of effort as people try to defend against these ransomers. The other thing about it is it's really a lot like Whac-A-Mole, you know. They attack us in one area and we defend against it so they attack us in another area, and we defend against it. And in fact, I had an individual come up to me at a show not long ago and said, "You know, one of these days we're going to get pretty well defended against ransomware and it's going to go away." And I responded I don't think so because we're constantly introducing new systems, new software, and introducing new vulnerabilities. And the fact is ransomware is so profitable, the bad guys aren't going to just fade into the night without giving it a a lot of fight. So I really think that ransomware is one of those things that is here for the long term and something that we have to address and have to get proactive about. >> You mentioned some stats there, and recently IDC and Druva did a white paper together that really revealed some quite shocking results. Talk to me about some of the things. Let's talk a little bit about the demographics of the survey and then talk about what was the biggest finding there, especially where it's concerning ransomware? >> Yeah, this was a worldwide study. It was sponsored by Druva and conducted by IDC as an independent study. And what we did, we surveyed 500, it was a little over 500 different individuals across the globe in North America, select countries in Western Europe, as well as several in Asia Pacific. And we did it across industries there were 20 different industries represented, they're all evenly represented. We had surveys that included IT practitioners, primarily CIOs, CTOs, VP of infrastructure, you know, managers of data centers, things like that. And the biggest finding that we had in this, Lisa, was really finding that there is a huge disconnect, I believe, between how people think they are ready and what the actual results are when they get attacked. Some of the statistics that we learned from this, Lisa, include 83% of organizations believe, or told us that they have a playbook that they have for ransomware. I think 93% said that they have a high degree, or a high or very high degree of confidence in their recovery tools and are fully automated. And yet, when you look at the actual results, you know, I told you a moment ago, 46% have been attacked successfully. I can also tell you that in separate research, fewer than 1/3 of organizations were able to fully recover their data without paying the ransom, and some 2/3 actually had to pay the ransom. And even when they did, they didn't necessarily achieve their full recovery. You know, the bad guys aren't necessarily to be trusted, and so the software that they provide sometimes is fully recovered, sometimes it's not. So you look at that and you go, wow. On the one hand, people think they're really, really prepared, and on the other hand, the results are absolutely horrible. You know, 2/3 of people having to pay the ransom. So you start to ask yourself, well, what's going on there? And I believe that a lot of it comes down to, kind of reminds me of the old quote from Mike Tyson. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." And I think that's kind of what happens with ransomware. You think you know what you're doing. You think you're ready, based on the information you have. And these people are smart people, and they're professionals, but oftentimes, you don't know what you don't know. And like I said, the bad guys are always dreaming up new ways to attack us. And so, I think, for that reason, a lot of these have been successful. So that was kind of the key finding to me and kind of the aha moment really in this whole thing, Lisa. >> That's a massive disconnect with the vast majority saying, "We have a cyber recovery playbook," yet nearly 1/2 being the victims of ransomware in the last three years, and then 1/2 of them experiencing data loss. What is it then that organizations in this situation across any industry can do to truly enable cyber resilience, data resilience? As we said, this is a matter of this is going to happen, just a matter of when and how often. >> It is a matter, yeah, as you said, it's not if, when, or how often, it's really how badly. So I think what organizations are really doing now is starting to turn more to cloud-based services, you know, finding professionals who know what they're doing, who have that breadth of experience and who have seen the kinds of necessary steps that it takes to do a recovery. And the fact of the matter is a disaster recovery and a cyber recovery are really not the same thing. And so organizations need to be able to plan the kinds of recovery associated with cyber recovery in terms of forensics, in terms of scanning, in terms of analysis, and so forth. So they're turning to professionals in the cloud much more, in order to get that breadth of experience, and to take advantage of cloud-based services that are out there. >> Talk to me about some of the key advantages of cloud-based services for data resilience versus traditional legacy on-prem equipment. What are some of the advantages? Why is IDC seeing this big shift to cloud where data resilience is concerned? >> Well, the first and foremost is the economics of it. You know, you can have on-demand resources. In the old days, when we had disaster recoveries where we had two different data centers and a failover and so forth, you know, you had double the infrastructure. If you're financial services, it might even be triple the infrastructure. It was very complicated, very difficult. By going to the cloud, organizations can subscribe to disaster recovery as a service. And increasingly what we see is a new market of cyber recovery as a service. So being able to leverage those resources, to be able to have the forensic analysis available to them, to be able to have the other resources available that are on demand, and to have that plan in place to have those resources in place. I think what happens in a number of situations, Lisa, is that organizations think they're ready, but then all of a sudden they get hit, and all of a sudden they have to engage with outside consultants, or they have to bring in other experts, and that extends the time to recover that they have and it also complicates it. So if they have those resources in place, then they can simply turn them on, engage them, and get that recovery going as quickly as possible. >> So what do you think the big issue here is? Is it that these IPT practitioners, over 500 that you surveyed across 20 industries, this a global survey, do they they not know what they don't know? What's the overlying issue here? >> Yeah, I think that's right. You don't know what you don't know, and until you get into a specific attack, you know, there are so many different ways that organizations can be attacked. And, in fact, from this research that we found is that, in many cases, data exfiltration exceeds data corruption by about 50%. But when you think about that, the issue is, once I have your data, what are you going to do? I mean, there's no amount of recovery that is going to help. So organizations are either faced with paying the ransom to keep the data from perhaps being used on the dark web, or whatever, or simply saying no, and taking their chances. So best practice things like encryption, immutability, things like that that organizations can put into place. Certainly air gaps, having a solid backup foundation to where data is, you have a high recovery, high probability of recovery, things like that. Those are the kinds of things that organizations have to put into place, really as a baseline to assure that they can recover as fast as possible and not lose data in the event of a ransomware attack. >> Given some of the disconnect that you articulated, the stats that show so many think we are prepared, we've got a playbook, yet so many are being attacked, the vulnerabilities as the landscape, threat landscape, just gets more and more amorphous. What do you recommend organizations do? You talked to the IT practitioners, but does this go all the way up to the board level in terms of, hey guys, across every industry, we are vulnerable, this is going to happen. We've got to make sure that we are truly resilient and proactive? >> Yes, and in fact, what we found from this research is in more than 1/2 of cases, the CEO is directly involved in the recovery. So this is very much a C-suite issue. And if you look at the consequences of ransomware, it's not just the ransom, it's the lost productivity, it's the loss of revenue. It's the loss of customer faith and goodwill, and organizations that have been attacked have suffered those consequences, and many of them are permanent. So people at the board level, whether it's the CEO, the CFO, the CIO, the CSO, you know, whoever it is, they're extremely concerned about these. And I can tell you, they are fully engaged in addressing those issues within their organization. >> So all the way at the top, and critically important, business critical for any industry. I imagine some industries may be a little bit more vulnerable than others, financial services, healthcare, education. We've just seen a big attack in Los Angeles County. But in terms of establishing data resilience, you mentioned ransomware isn't going anywhere, it's a big business, it's very profitable. But what is IDC's prediction where ransomware is concerned? Do you think that organizations, if they truly adopt cloud and SaaS-based technologies, can they get to a place where the C-suite doesn't have to be involved to the point where they really actually have a functioning playbook? >> I don't know if we'll ever get to the point where the C-suite is not involved. It's probably very important to have that level of executive sponsorship. But what we are seeing is, in fact, we predict that by 2025, 55% of organizations will have shifted to a cloud-centric strategy for their data resilience. And the reason we say that is, you know, workloads on premises aren't going away. So that's the core. We have an increasing number of workloads in the cloud and at the edge, and that's really where the growth is. So being able to take that cloud-centric model and take advantage of cloud resources like immutable storage, being able to move data from region to region inexpensively and easily, and to be able to take that cloud-centric perspective and apply it on premises as well as in the cloud and at the edge is really where we believe that organizations are shifting their focus. >> Got it, we're just cracking the surface here, Phil. I wish we had more time, but I had a chance to read the Druva-sponsored IDC white paper. Fascinating finds. I encourage all of you to download that, take a read. You're going to learn some very interesting statistics and recommendations for how you can really truly deploy data resilience in your organization. Phil, it's been a pleasure to have you on the program. Thank you for joining me. >> No problem. Thank you, Lisa. >> In a moment, John Furrier will be here with his next guest. For right now, I'm Lisa Martin, and you are watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. >> We live in a world of infinite data. Sprawling, dispersed, valuable, but also vulnerable. So how do organizations achieve data resiliency when faced with ever expanding workloads, increasing security threats, and intensified regulations? Unfortunately, the answer often boils down to what flavor of complexity do you like best? The common patchwork approaches are expensive, convoluted, and difficult to manage. There's multiple software and hardware vendors to worry about, different deployments for workloads running on-premises or in the cloud. And an inconsistent security framework resulting in enterprises maintaining four to five copies of the same data, increasing costs and risk, building to an incoherent mess of complications. Now, imagine a world free from these complexities. Welcome to the the Druva Data Resiliency Cloud, where full data protection and beautiful simplicity converge. No hardware, no upgrades, no management, just total data resilience. With just a few clicks, you can get started integrating all of your data resiliency workflows in minutes. Through a true cloud experience built on Amazon Web Services, the Druva platform automates and manages critical daily tasks, giving you time to focus on your business. In other words, get simplicity, scalability, and security instantly. With the Druva Data Resiliency Cloud, your data isn't just backed up, it's ready to be used 24/7 to meet compliance needs and to extract critical insights. You can archive data for long-term retention, be protected against device failure and natural disasters, and recover from ransomware lightning fast. Druva is trusted with billions of backups annually by thousands of enterprises, including more than 60 of the Fortune 500, costing up to 50% less than the convoluted hardware, software, and appliance solutions. As data grows and becomes more critical to your business advantage, a data resiliency plan is vital, but it shouldn't be complicated. Druva makes it simple. (upbeat music) (mouse clicks) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE and the Druva special presentation of "Why Ransomware isn't Your Only Problem." I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with W Curtis Preston, Curtis Preston, as he's known in the industry, Chief Technical Evangelist at Druva. Curtis, great to see you. We're here at "Why Ransomware isn't Your Only Problem." Great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Happy to be here. >> So we always see each other at events now events are back. So it's great to have you here for this special presentation. The white paper from IDC really talks about this in detail. I'd like to get your thoughts, and I'd like you to reflect on the analysis that we've been covering here in this survey data, how it lines up with the real world that you're seeing out there. >> Yeah, I think it's, the survey results really, I'd like to say, I'd like to say that they surprised me, but unfortunately, they didn't. The data protection world has been this way for a while where there's this difference in belief, or difference between the belief and the reality. And what we see is that there are a number of organizations that have been hit, successfully hit by ransomware, paid the ransom and/or lost data, and yet the same people that were surveyed, they had high degrees of confidence in their backup system. And, you know, I could probably go on for an hour as to the various reasons why that would be the case, but I think that this long running problem that as long as I've been associated with backups, which, you know, has been a while, it's that problem of, you know, nobody wants to be the backup person. And people often just, they don't want to have anything to do with the backup system, and so it sort of exists in this vacuum. And so then management is like, "Oh, the backup system's great," because the backup person often, you know, might say that it's great because maybe it's their job to say so. But the reality has always been very, very different. >> It's funny, you know. "We're good, boss, we got this covered." >> Yeah, it's all good, it's all good. >> And the fingers crossed, right? So again, this is the reality, and as it becomes backup and recovery, which we've talked about many times on theCUBE, certainly we have with you before, but now with ransomware, also, the other thing is people get ransomware hit multiple times. So it's not only like they get hit once, so, you know, this is a constant chasing the tail on some ends, but there are some tools out there, You guys have a solution, and so let's get into that. You know, you have had hands-on backup experience. What are the points that surprise you the most about what's going on in this world and the realities of how people should be going forward? What's your take? >> Well, I would say that the one part in the survey that surprised me the most was people that had a huge, you know, there was a huge percentage of people that said that they had, you know, a ransomware response, you know, and readiness program. And you look at that, and how could you be, you know, that high a percentage of people be comfortable with their ransomware readiness program, which includes a number of things, right? There's the cyberattack aspect of responding to a ransomware attack, and then there's the recovery aspect. And so you believe that your company was ready for that, and then you go, and I think it was 67% of the people in the survey paid the ransom, which as a person who, you know, has spent my entire career trying to help people successfully recover their data, that number, I think, just hurt me the most is that because, you talked about re-infections. The surest way to guarantee that you get re-attacked and reinfected is to pay the ransom. This goes back all the way to ransom since the beginning of time, right? Everyone knows if you pay the blackmail, all you're telling people is that you pay blackmail. >> You're in business, you're a good customer >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> for ransomware. >> Yeah, so the fact that, you know, 60, what, 2/3 of the people that were attacked by ransomware paid the ransom. That one statistic just hurt my heart. >> Yeah, and I think this is the reality. I mean, we go back, and even the psychology of the practitioners was, you know, it's super important to get backup and recovery, and that's been around for a long time, but now that's an attack vector, okay? And there's dollars involved, like I said, I'm joking, but there's recurring revenue for the bad guys if they know you're paying up and if you're stupid enough not to change your tooling. So again, it works both ways. So I got to ask you, why do you think so many owners are unable to successfully respond after an attack? Is it because, they know it's coming, I mean, they're not that dumb. I mean, they have to know it's coming. Why aren't they responding successfully to this? >> I think it's a litany of things, starting with that aspect that I mentioned before, that nobody wants to have anything to do with the backup system, right? So nobody wants to be the one to raise their hand because if you're the one that raises their hand, "You know, that's a good idea, Curtis, why don't you look into that?" Nobody wants to be- >> Where's that guy now? He doesn't work here anymore. Yeah, I hear where you coming from. >> Exactly. >> It's psychology (indistinct) >> Yeah, so there's that. But then the second is that because of that, no one's looking at the fact that backups are the attack vector. They become the attack vector. And so because they're the attack vector, they have to be protected as much, if not more than the rest of the environment. The rest of the environment can live off of Active Directory and, you know, and things like Okta, so that you can have SSO and things like that. The backup environment has to be segregated in a very special way. Backups have to be stored completely separate from your environment. The login and authentication and authorization system needs to be completely separate from your typical environment. Why? Because if that production environment is compromised, now knowing that the attacks or that the backup systems are a significant portion of the attack vector, then if the production system is compromised, then the backup system is compromised. So you've got to segregate all of that. And I just don't think that people are thinking about that. You know, and they're using the same backup techniques that they've used for many, many years. >> So what you're saying is that the attack vectors and the attackers are getting smarter. They're saying, "Hey, we'll just take out the backup first so they can't backup. So we got the ransomware." It makes sense. >> Yeah, exactly. The largest ransomware group out there, the Conti ransomware group, they are specifically targeting specific backup vendors. They know how to recognize the backup servers. They know how to recognize where the backups are stored, and they are exfiltrating the backups first, and then deleting them, and then letting you know you have ransom. >> Okay, so you guys have a lot of customers. They all kind of have the same problem. What's the patterns that you're seeing? How are they evolving? What are some of the things that they're implementing? What is the best practice? >> Well, again, you've got to fully segregate that data, and everything about how that data is stored and everything about how that data's created and accessed, there are ways to do that with other, you know, with other commercial products. You can take a standard product and put a number of layers of defense on top of it, or you can switch to the way Druva does things, which is a SaaS offering that stores your data completely in the cloud in our account, right? So your account could be completely compromised. That has nothing to do with our account. It's a completely different authentication and authorization system. You've got multiple layers of defense between your computing environment and where we store your backups. So basically, what you get by default with the way Druva stores your backups is the best you can get after doing many, many layers of defense on the other side and having to do all that work. With us, you just log in and you get all of that. >> I guess, how do you break the laws of physics? I guess that's the question here. >> Well, because that's the other thing is that by storing the data in the cloud, and I've said this a few times, you get to break the laws of physics, and the only way to do that is time travel. (both laughing) So yes, so Druva has time travel. And this is a Curtisism, by the way, I don't think this is our official position, but the idea is that the only way to restore data as fast as possible is to restore it before you actually need it, and that's kind of what I mean by time travel, in that you, basically, you configure your DR, your disaster recovery environment in Druva one time, and then we are pre-restoring your data as often as you tell us to do, to bring your DR environment up to the, you know, the current environment as quickly as we can so that in a disaster recovery scenario, which is part of your ransomware response, right? Again, there are many different parts, but when you get to actually restoring the data, you should be able to just push a button and go. The data should already be restored. And that's the way that you break the laws of physics is you break the laws of time. >> (laughs) Well, all right, everyone wants to know the next question, and this is a real big question is, are you from the future? >> (laughs) Yeah. Very much the future. >> What's it like in the future, backup, recovery? How does it restore? Is it air gapping everything? >> Yeah, well, it's a world where people don't have to worry about their backups. I like to use the phrase get out of the backup business, just get into the restore business. You know, I'm a grandfather now, and I love having a granddaughter, and I often make the joke that if I'd have known how great grandkids were, I would've skipped straight to them, right? Not possible. Just like this. Recoveries are great. Backups are really hard. So in the future, if you use a SaaS data protection system and data resiliency system, you can just do recoveries and not have to worry about backups. >> Yeah, and what's great about your background is you've got a lot of historical perspective. You've seen that, the waves of innovation. Now it really is about the recovery and real time. So a lot of good stuff going on. And got to think automated, things got to be rocking and rolling. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I do remember, again, having worked so hard with many clients over the years, back then, we worked so hard just to get the backup done. There was very little time to work on the recovery. And I really, I kid you not, that our customers don't have to do all of those things that all of our competitors have to do to, you know, to break, to try to break the laws of physics, I've been fighting the laws of physics my entire career, to get the backup done in the first place, then to secure all the data, and to air gap it and make sure that a ransomware attack isn't going to attack it. Our customers get to get straight to a fully automated disaster recovery environment that they get to test as often as possible and they get to do a full test by simply pressing a single button. And you know, I wish everybody had that ability. >> Yeah, I mean, security's a big part of it. Data's in the middle of it all. This is now mainstream, front lines, great stuff. Curtis, great to have you on, bring that perspective, and thanks for the insight. Really appreciate it. >> Always happy to talk about my favorite subject. >> All right, we'll be back in a moment. We'll have Stephen Manley, the CTO, and Anjan Srinivas, the GM and VP of Product Management will join me. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Ransomware is top of mind for everyone. Attacks are becoming more frequent and more sophisticated. It's a problem you can't solve alone anymore. Ransomware is built to exploit weaknesses in your backup solution, destroying data, and your last line of defense. With many vendors, it can take a lot of effort and configuration to ensure your backup environment is secure. Criminals also know that it's easy to fall behind on best practices like vulnerability scans, patches, and updates. In fact, 42% of vulnerabilities are exploited after a patch has been released. After an attack, recovery can be a long and manual process that still may not restore clean or complete data. The good news is that you can keep your data safe and recover faster with the Druva Data Resiliency Cloud on your side. The Druva platform functions completely in the cloud with no hardware, software, operating system, or complex configurations, which means there are none of the weaknesses that ransomware commonly uses to attack backups. Our software as a service model delivers 24/7/365 fully managed security operations for your backup environment. We handle all the vulnerability scans, patches, and upgrades for you. Druva also makes zero trust security easy with built-in multifactor authentication, single sign-on, and role-based access controls. In the event of an attack, Druva helps you stop the spread of ransomware and quickly understand what went wrong with built-in access insights and anomaly detection. Then you can use industry first tools and services to automate the recovery of clean, unencrypted data from the entire timeframe of the attack. Cyberattacks are a major threat, but you can make protection and recovery easy with Druva. (electronic music) (upbeat music) (mouse clicks) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's special presentation with Druva on "Why Ransomware isn't Your Only Problem." I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Our next guests are Stephen Manley, Chief Technology Officer of Druva, and Anjan Srinivas, who is the General Manager and Vice President of Product Management at Druva. Gentlemen, you got the keys to the kingdom, the technology, ransomware, data resilience. This is the topic. The IDC white paper that you guys put together with IDC really kind of nails it out. I want to get into it right away. Welcome to this segment. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here, John. >> So what's your thoughts on the survey's conclusion? Obviously, the resilience is huge. Ransomware continues to thunder away at businesses and causes a lot of problems, disruption. I mean, it's endless ransomware problems. What's your thoughts on the conclusion? >> So I'll say the thing that pops out to me is, on the one hand, everybody who sees the survey and reads it is going to say, "Well, that's obvious." Of course, ransomware continues to be a problem. Cyber resilience is an issue that's plaguing everybody. But I think when you dig deeper and there's a lot of subtleties to look into, but one of the things that I hear on a daily basis from the customers is, it's because the problem keeps evolving. It's not as if the threat was a static thing to just be solved and you're done. Because the threat keeps evolving, it remains top of mind for everybody because it's so hard to keep up with what's happening in terms of the attacks. >> And I think the other important thing to note, John, is that people are grappling with this ransomware attack all of a sudden where they were still grappling with a lot of legacy in their own environment. So they were not prepared for the advanced techniques that these ransomware attackers were bringing to market. It's almost like these ransomware attackers had a huge leg up in terms of technology that they had in their favor while keeping the lights on was keeping IT away from all the tooling that they needed to do. A lot of people are even still wondering, when that happens next time, what do I even do? So clearly not very surprising. Clearly, I think it's here to stay, and I think as long as people don't retool for a modern era of data management, this is going to to stay this way. >> Yeah, I hear this all the time in our CUBE conversations with practitioners. It's kind of like the security pro, give me more tools, I'll buy anything that comes in the market, I'm desperate. There's definitely attention, but it doesn't seem like people are satisfied with the tooling that they have. Can you guys share kind of your insights into what's going on in the product side? Because, you know, people claim that they have tools at crime points of recovery opportunities, but they can't get there. So it seems to be that there's a confidence problem here in the market. How do you guys see that? 'cause I think this is where the rubber meets the road with ransomware 'cause it is a moving train, it's always changing, but it doesn't seem there's confidence. Can you guys talk about that? What's your reaction? >> Yeah, let me jump in first, and Stephen can add to it. What happens is, I think this is a panic buying and they have accumulated this tooling now just because somebody said they could solve your problem, but they haven't had a chance to take a real look from a ground up perspective to see where are the bottlenecks? Where are the vulnerabilities? And which tooling set needs to lie where? Where does the logic need to reside? And what, in Druva, we are watching people do and people do it successfully, is that as they have adopted Druva technology, which is ground up built for the cloud, and really built in a way which is, you know, driven at a data insight level where we have people even monitoring our service for anomalies and activities that are suspicious. We know where we need to play a role in really kind of mitigating this ransomware, and then there's a whole plethora of ecosystem players that kind of combine to really finish the story, so to say, right? So I think this has been a panic buying situation. This is like, "Get me any help you can give me." And I think as this settles down and people really understand that longer term as they really build out a true defense mechanism, they need to think really ground up. They will start to really see the value of technologies like Druva, and try to identify the right set of ecosystem to really bring together to solve it meaningfully. >> Yes, Stephen? >> I was going to say, I mean, one of the the really interesting things in the survey for me, and for a moment, a little more than a moment, it made me think was that the large number of respondents who said, "I've got a really efficient, well-run back environment," who, then, on basically the next question said, "And I have no confidence that I can recover from a ransomware attack." And you scratch your head and you think, "Well, if your backup environment is so good, why do you have such low confidence?" And I think that's the moment when we dug deeper and we realized, if you've got a traditional architecture, and let's face it, the disk-based architecture's been around for almost two decades now, in terms of disk-based backup, you can have that tuned to the hilt. That can be running as efficiently as you want it, but it was built before the ransomware attacks, before all these cyber issues, you know, really start hitting companies. And so I have this really well-run traditional backup environment that is not at all built for these modern threat vectors. And so that's really why customers are saying, "I'm doing the best I can," but as Anjan pointed out, the architecture, the tooling isn't there to support what problems I need to solve today. >> Yeah, great point. >> And so, yeah. >> Well, that's a great point. Before we get into the customer side I want to get to in second, you know, I interviewed Jaspreet, the founder and CEO many years ago, even before the pandemic, and you mentioned modern. You guys have always had the cloud with Druva. This is huge. Now that you're past the pandemic, what is that modern cloud edge that you guys have? 'Cause that's a great point. A lot of stuff was built kind of backup and recovery bolted on, not really kind of designed into the current state of the infrastructure and the cloud native application modern environment we're seeing right now. It's a huge issue. >> I think, to me there's three things that come up over and over and over again as we talk to people in terms of, you know, being built in cloud, being cloud native, why is it an advantage? The first one is security and ransomware. And we can go deeper, but the most obvious one that always comes up is every single backup you do with Druva is air gapped, offsite, managed under a separate administrative domain so that you're not retrofitting any sort of air gap network and buying another appliance or setting up your own cloud environment to manage this. Every backup is ransomware protected, guaranteed. The second advantage is the scalability. And you know, this certainly plays into account as your business grows, or, in some cases, as you shrink or repurpose workloads, you're only paying for what you use. But it also plays a big role, again, when you start thinking of ransomware recoveries because we can scale your recovery in cloud, on premises as much or as little as you want. And then I think the third one is we're seeing, basically, things evolving, new workloads, data sprawl, new threat vectors. And one of the nice parts of being a SaaS service in the cloud is we're able to roll out new functionality every two weeks and there's no upgrade cycle, there's no waiting. The customer doesn't have to say, "Wow, I needed six months in the lab before I upgrade it and it's an 18-month, 24-month cycle before the functionality releases. You're getting it every two weeks, and it's backed by Druva to make sure it works. >> Anjan, you know, you got the product side, you know, it's a challenging job 'cause you have so many customers asking for things, probably on the roadmap, you probably can go an hour for that one, but I want to get your thoughts on what you're hearing and seeing from customers. We just reviewed the IDC with Phil. How are you guys responding to your customer's needs? Because it seems that it's highly accelerated, probably on the feature requests, but also structurally as ransomware continues to evolve. What are you hearing? What's the key customer need? How are you guys responding? >> Yeah, actually, I have two things that I hear very clearly when I talk to customers. One, I think, after listening to their security problems and their vulnerability challenges, because we see customers and help customers who are getting challenged by ransomware on a weekly basis. And what I find that this problem is not just a technology problem, it's an operating model problem. So in order to really secure themselves, they need a security operating model and a lot of them haven't figured out that security operating model in totality. Now where we come in, as Druva, is that we are providing them the cloud operating model and a data protection operating model, combined with a data insights operating model which all fit into their overall security operating model that they are really owning and they need to manage and operate, because this is not just about a piece of technology. On top of that, I think our customers are getting challenged by all the same challenges of not just spending time on keeping the lights on, but innovating faster with less. And that has been this age old problem, do more with less. But in this whole, they're like trying to innovate in the middle of the war, so to say. The war is happening, they're getting attacked, but there's also net new shadow IT challenges that's forcing them to make sure that they can manage all the new applications that are getting developed in the cloud. There is thousands of SaaS applications that they're consuming, not knowing which data is critical to their success and which ones to protect and govern and secure. So all of these things are coming at them at 100 miles per hour, while they're just trying to live one day at a time. And unless they really develop this overall security operating model, helped by cloud native technologies like Druva that really providing them a true cloud native model of really giving like a touchless and an invisible protection infrastructure. Not just beyond backups, beyond just the data protection that we all know of into this mindset of kind of being able to look at where each of those functionalities need to lie. That's where I think they're grappling with. Now Druva is clearly helping them with keep up to pace with the public cloud innovations that they need to do and how to protect data. We just launched our EC2 offering to protect EC2 virtual machines back in AWS, and we are going to be continuing to evolve that to further the many services that public cloud software 'cause our customers are really kind of consuming them at breakneck speed. >> So new workloads, new security capabilities. Love that. Good call out there. Stephen, there's still the issue of the disruption side of it. You guys have a guarantee. There's a cost of ownership as you get more tools. Can you talk about that angle of it? You got new workloads, you got the new security needs, what's the disruption impact? 'Cause you want to avoid that. How much is it going to cost you? And you guys have this guarantee, can you explain that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So Druva launched our $10 million data resiliency guarantee. And for us, there were really two key parts to this. The first obviously is $10 million means that, you know, again, we're willing to put our money where our mouth is, and that's a big deal, right? That we're willing to back this with the guarantee. But then the second part, and this is the part that I think reflects that sort of model that Anjan was talking about. We sort of look at this and we say the goal of Druva is to do the job of protecting and securing your data for you so that you, as a customer, don't have to do it anymore. And so the guarantee actually protects you against multiple types of risks, all with SLAs. So everything from your data's going to be recoverable in the case of a ransomware attack. Okay, that's good. Of course, for it to be recoverable, we're also guaranteeing your backup success rate. We're also guaranteeing the availability of the service. We're guaranteeing that the data that we're storing for you can't be compromised or leaked externally, and we're guaranteeing the long-term durability of the data so that if you backup with us today and you need to recover 30 years from now, that data's going to be recovered. So we wanted to really attack the end-to-end risks that affect our customers. Cybersecurity is a big deal, but it is not the only problem out there, and the only way for this to work is to have a service that can provide you SLAs across all of the risks, because that means, as a SaaS vendor, we're doing the job for you so you're buying results as opposed to technology. >> That's great. Great point. Ransomware isn't the only problem. That's the title of this presentation, but it's a big one. (laughs) People are concerned about it, so great stuff. In the last five minutes, guys, if you don't mind, I'd love to have you share what's on the horizon for Druva? You mentioned the new workloads, Anjan. You mentioned this new security. You're going to shift left. DevOps is now the developer model. They're running IT. Get data and security teams now stepping in and trying to be as high velocity as possible for the developers and enterprises. What's on the horizon for Druva? What trends is the company watching, and how are you guys putting that together to stay ahead in the marketplace and the competition? >> Yeah, I think, listening to our customers, what we realize is they need help with the public cloud, number one. I think that's a big wave of consumption. People are consolidating their data centers, moving to the public cloud. They need help in expanding data protection, which becomes the basis of a lot of the security operating model that I talked about. They need that first, from Druva, before they can start to get into much more advanced level of insights and analytics around that data to protect themselves and secure themselves and do interesting things with that data. So we are expanding our coverage on multiple fronts there. The second key thing is to really bring together a very insightful presentation layer, which, I think, is very unique to Druva because only we can look at multiple tenants, multiple customers because we are a SaaS vendor, and look at insights and give them best practices and guidances and analytics that nobody else can give. There's no silo anymore because we are able to take a good big vision view and now help our customers with insights that otherwise that information map is completely missing. So we are able to guide them down a path where they can optimize which workloads need what kind of protection, and then how to secure them. So that is the second level of insights and analytics that we are building. And there's a whole plethora of security offerings that we are going to build, all the way from a feature level where we have things like (audio distorts) that's already available to our customers today to prevent any anomalous behavior and attacks that would delete their backups and then they still have a way to recover from it, but also things to curate and get back to that point in time where it is safe to recover and help them with a sandbox which they can recover confidently knowing it's not going to jeopardize them again and reinfect the whole environment again. So there's a whole bunch of things coming, but the key themes are public cloud, data insights, and security, and that's where my focus is, to go and get those features delivered, and Stephen can add a few more things around services that Stephen is looking to build and launch. >> Sure, so, yeah, so John, I think one of the other areas that we see just an enormous groundswell of interest. So public cloud is important, but there are more and more organizations that are running hundreds, if not thousands of SaaS applications, and a lot of those SaaS applications have data. So there's the obvious things, like Microsoft 365, Google Workspace, but we're also seeing a lot of interest in protecting Salesforce because, if you think about it, if someone you know deletes some really important records in Salesforce, that's actually kind of the record of your business. And so, we're looking at more and more SaaS application protection, and really getting deep in that application awareness. It's not just about backup and recovery when you look at something like a Salesforce, or something like Microsoft 365. You do want to look into sandboxing, you want to look into long-term archival, because this is the new record of the business. What used to be in your on-premises databases, that all lives in cloud and SaaS applications now. So that's a really big area of investment for us. The second one, just to echo what Anjan said is, one of the great things of being a SaaS provider is I have metadata that spans across thousands of customers and tens of billions of backups a year. I'm tracking all sorts of interesting information that is going to enable us to do things like make backups more autonomous so that customers, again, I want to do the job for them. We'll do all the tuning, we'll do all the management for them to be able to better detect ransomware attacks, better respond to ransomware attacks, because we're seeing across the globe. And then, of course, being able to give them more insight into what's happening in their data environment so they can get a better security posture before any attack happens. Because, let's face it, if you can set your data up more cleanly, you're going to be a lot less worried and a lot less exposed when that attack happens. So we want to be able to, again, cover those SaaS applications in addition to the public cloud, and then we want to be able to use our metadata and use our analytics and use this massive pipeline we've got to deliver value to our customers. Not just charts and graphs, but actual services that enable them to focus their attention on other parts of the business. >> That's great stuff. >> And remember, John, I think all this while keeping things really easy to consume, consumer grade UI, APIs, and then really the power of SaaS as a service, simplicity to kind of continue on, amongst kind of keeping these complex technologies together. >> Anjan, that's a great callout. I was going to mention ease of use and self-service. Big part of the developer and IT experience. Expected. It's the table stakes. Love the analytic angle, I think that brings the scale to the table, and faster time to value to get to learn best practices. But at the end of the day, automation, cross-cloud protection and security to protect and recover. This is huge, and this is a big part of not only just protecting against ransomware and other things, but really being fast and being agile. So really appreciate the insights. Thanks for sharing on this segment, really under the hood and really kind of the value of the product. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay, there it is. You have the experts talk about under the hood, the product, the value, the future of what's going on with Druva, and the future of cloud native protecting and recovering. This is what it's all about. It's not just ransomware they have to worry about. In a moment, Dave Vellante will give you some closing thoughts on the subject here. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> As organizations migrate their business processes to multi-cloud environments, they still face numerous threats and risks of data loss. With a growing number of cloud platforms and fragmented applications, it leads to an increase in data silos, sprawl, and management complexity. As workloads become more diverse, it's challenging to effectively manage data growth, infrastructure, and resource costs across multiple cloud deployments. Using numerous backup vendor solutions for multiple cloud platforms can lead to management complexity. More importantly, the lack of centralized visibility and control can leave you exposed to security vulnerabilities, including ransomware that can cripple your business. The Druva Data Resiliency Cloud is the only 100% SaaS data resiliency platform that provides centralized, secure, air gapped, and immutable backup and recovery. With Druva, your data is safe with multiple layers of protection and is ready for fast recovery from cyberattacks, data corruption, or accidental data loss. Through a simple, easy to manage platform, you can seamlessly protect fragmented, diverse data at scale, across public clouds, and your business critical SaaS applications. Druva is the only 100% SaaS vendor that can manage, govern, and protect data across multiple clouds and business critical SaaS applications. It supports not just backup and recovery, but also data resiliency across high value use cases, such as e-discovery, sensitive data governance, ransomware, and security. No other vendor can match Druva for customer experience, infinite scale, storage optimization, data immutability, and ransomware protection. The Druva Data Resiliency Cloud, your data, always safe, always ready. Visit druva.com today to schedule a free demo. (upbeat music) >> One of the big takeaways from today's program is that in the scramble to keep business flowing over the past 2+ years, a lot of good technology practices have been put into place, but there's much more work to be done, specifically, because the frequency of attacks is on the rise and the severity of lost, stolen, or inaccessible data is so much higher today, business resilience must be designed into architectures and solutions from the start. It cannot be an afterthought. Well, actually it can be, but you won't be happy with the results. Now, part of the answer is finding the right partners, of course, but it also means taking a system's view of your business, understanding the vulnerabilities and deploying solutions that can balance cost efficiency with appropriately high levels of protection, flexibility, and speed slash accuracy of recovery. Here we hope you found today's program useful and informative. Remember, this session is available on demand in both its full format and the individual guest segments. All you got to do is go to thecube.net, and you'll see all the content, or you can go to druva.com. There are tons of resources available, including analyst reports, customer stories. There's this cool TCO calculator. You can find out what pricing looks like and lots more. Thanks for watching "Why Ransomware isn't Your Only Problem," made possible by Druva, in collaboration with IDC and presented by theCUBE, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)