(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We've got Sam Kassoumeh, co-founder and chief operating office at SecurityScorecard here remotely coming in. Thanks for coming on Sam. Security, Sam. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> Love the security conversations. I love what you guys are doing. I think this idea of managed services, SaaS. Developers love it. Operation teams love getting into tools easily and having values what you guys got with SecurityScorecard. So let's get into what we were talking before we came on. You guys have a unique solution around ratings, but also it's not your grandfather's pen test want to be security app. Take us through what you guys are doing at SecurityScorecard. >> Yeah. So just like you said, it's not a point in time assessment and it's similar to a traditional credit rating, but also a little bit different. You can really think about it in three steps. In step one, what we're doing is we're doing threat intelligence data collection. We invest really heavily into R&D function. We never stop investing in R&D. We collect all of our own data across the entire IPV force space. All of the different layers. Some of the data we collect is pretty straightforward. We might crawl a website like the example I was giving. We might crawl a website and see that the website says copyright 2005, but we know it's 2022. Now, while that signal isn't enough to go hack and break into the company, it's definitely a signal that someone might not be keeping things up to date. And if a hacker saw that it might encourage them to dig deeper. To more complex signals where we're running one of the largest DNS single infrastructures in the world. We're monitoring command and control malware and its behaviors. We're essentially collecting signals and vulnerabilities from the entire IPV force space, the entire network layer, the entire web app player, leaked credentials. Everything that we think about when we talk about the security onion, we collect data at each one of those layers of the onion. That's step one. And we can do all sorts of interesting insights and information and reports just out of that thread intel. Now, step two is really interesting. What we do is we go identify the attack surface area or what we call the digital footprint of any company in the world. So as a customer, you can simply type in the name of a company and we identify all of the domains, sub domains, subsidiaries, organizations that are identified on the internet that belong to that organization. So every digital asset of every company we go out and we identify that and we update that every 24 hours. And step three is the rating. The rating is probabilistic and it's deterministic. The rating is a benchmark. We're looking at companies compared to their peers of similar size within the same industry and we're looking at how they're performing. And it's probabilistic in the sense that companies that have an F are about seven to eight times more likely to experience a breach. We're an A through F scale, universally understood. Ds and Fs, more likely to experience a breach. A's we see less breaches now. Like I was mentioning before, it doesn't mean that an F is always going to get hacked or an A can never get hacked. If a nation state targets an A, they're going to eventually get in with enough persistence and budget. If the pizza shop on the corner has an F, they may never get hacked because no one cares, but natural correlation, more doors open to the house equals higher likelihood someone unauthorized is going to walk in. So it's really those three steps. The collection, we map it to the surface area of the company and then we produce a rating. Today we're rating about 12 million companies every single day. >> And how many people do you have as customers? >> We have 50,000 organizations using us, both free and paid. We have a freemium tier where just like Yelp or a LinkedIn business profile. Any company in the world has a right to go claim the score. We never extort companies to fix the score. We never charge a company to see the score or fix it. Any company in a world without paying us a cent can go in. They can understand what we're seeing about them, what a hacker could see about their environment. And then we empower them with the tools to fix it and they can fix it and the score will go up. Now companies pay us because they want enterprise capabilities. They want additional modules, insights, which we can talk about. But in total, there's about 50,000 companies that at any given point in time, they're monitoring about a million and a half organizations of the 12 million that we're rating. It sounds like Google. >> If you want to look at it. >> Sounds like Google Search you got going on there. You got a lot of search and then you create relevance, a score, like a ranking. >> That's precisely it. And that's exactly why Google ventures invested in us in our Series B round. And they're on our board. They looked and they said, wow, you guys are building like a Google Search engine over some really impressive threat intelligence. And then you're distilling it into a score which anybody in the world can easily understand. >> Yeah. You obviously have page rank, which changed the organic search business in the late 90s, early 2000s and the rest is history. AdWords. >> Yeah. >> So you got a lot of customer growth there potentially with the opt-in customer view, but you're looking at this from the outside in. You're looking at companies and saying, what's your security posture? Getting a feel for what they got going on and giving them scores. It sounds like it's not like a hacker proof. It's just more of a indicator for management and the team. >> It's an indicator. It's an indicator. Because today, when we go look at our vendors, business partners, third parties were flying blind. We have no idea how they're doing, how they're performing. So the status quo for the last 20 years has been perform a risk assessments, send a questionnaire, ask for a pen test and an audit evidence. We're trying to break that cycle. Nobody enjoys it. They're long tail. It's a trust without verification. We don't really like that. So we think we can evolve beyond this point in time assessment and give a continuous view. Now, today, historically, we've been outside in. Not intrusive, and we'll show you what a hacker can see about an environment, but we have some cool things percolating under the hood that give more of a 360 view outside, inside, and also a regulatory compliance view as well. >> Why is the compliance of the whole third party thing that you're engaging with important? Because I mean, obviously having some sort of way to say, who am I dealing with is important. I mean, we hear all kinds of things in the security landscape, oh, zero trust, and then we hear trust, supply chain, software risk, for example. There's a huge trust factor there. I need to trust this tool or this container. And then you got the zero trust, don't trust anything. And then you've got trust and verify. So you have all these different models and postures, and it just seems hard to keep up with. >> Sam: It's so hard. >> Take us through what that means 'cause pen tests, SOC reports. I mean the clouds help with the SOC report, but if you're doing agile, anything DevOps, you basically would need to do a pen test like every minute. >> It's impossible. The market shifted to the cloud. We watched and it still is. And that created a lot of complexity, not to date myself. But when I was starting off as a security practitioner, the data center used to be in the basement and I would have lunch with the database administrator and we talk about how we were protecting the data. Those days are long gone. We outsource a lot of our key business practices. We might use, for example, ADP for a payroll provider or Dropbox to store our data. But we've shifted and we no longer no who that person is that's protecting our data. They're sitting in another company in another area unknown. And I think about 10, 15 years ago, CISOs had the realization, Hey, wait a second. I'm relying on that third party to function and operate and protect my data, but I don't have any insight, visibility or control of their program. And we were recommended to use questionnaires and audit forms, and those are great. It's good hygiene. It's good practice. Get to know the people that are protecting your data, ask them the questions, get the evidence. The challenge is it's point in time, it's limited. Sometimes the information is inaccurate. Not intentionally, I don't think people intentionally want to go lie, but Hey, if there's a $50 million deal we're trying to close and it's dependent on checking this one box, someone might bend a rule a little bit. >> And I said on theCUBE publicly that I think pen test reports are probably being fudged and dates being replicated because it's just too fast. And again, today's world is about velocity on developers, trust on the code. So you got all kinds of trust issues. So I think verification, the blue check mark on Twitter kind of thing going on, you're going to see a lot more of that and I think this is just the beginning. I think what you guys are doing is scratching the surface. I think this outside in is a good first step, but that's not going to solve the internal problem that still coming and have big surface areas. So you got more surface area expanding. I mean, IOT's coming in, the Edge is coming fast. Never mind hybrid on-premise cloud. What's your organizations do to evaluate the risk and the third party? Hands shaking, verification, scorecards. Is it like a free look here or is it more depth to it? Do you double click on it? Take us through how this evolves. >> John it's become so disparate and so complex, Because in addition to the market moving to the cloud, we're now completely decentralized. People are working from home or working hybrid, which adds more endpoints. Then what we've learned over time is that it's not just a third party problem, because guess what? My third parties behind the scenes are also using third parties. So while I might be relying on them to process my customer's payment information, they're relying on 20 vendors behind the scene that I don't even know about. I might have an A, they might have an A. It's really important that we expand beyond that. So coming out of our innovation hub, we've developed a number of key capabilities that allow us to expand the value for the customer. One, you mentioned, outside in is great, but it's limited. We can see what a hacker sees and that's helpful. It gives us pointers where to maybe go ask double click, get comfort, but there's a whole nother world going on behind the firewall inside of an organization. And there might be a lot of good things going on that CISO security teams need to be rewarded for. So we built an inside module and component that allows teams to start plugging in the tools, the capabilities, keys to their cloud environments. And that can show anybody who's looking at the scorecard. It's less like a credit score and more like a social platform where we can go and look at someone's profile and say, Hey, how are things going on the inside? Do they have two-factor off? Are there cloud instances configured correctly? And it's not a point in time. This is a live connection that's being made. This is any point in time, we can validate that. The other component that we created is called an evidence locker. And an evidence locker, it's like a secure vault in my scorecard and it allows me to upload things that you don't really stand for or check for. Collateral, compliance paperwork, SOC 2 reports. Those things that I always begrudgingly email. I don't want to share with people my trade secrets, my security policies, and have it sit on their exchange server. So instead of having to email the same documents out, 300 times a month, I just upload them to my evidence locker. And what's great is now anybody following my scorecard can proactively see all the great things I'm doing. They see the outside view. They see the inside view. They see the compliance view. And now they have the holy grail view of my environment and can have a more intelligent conversation. >> Access to data and access methods are an interesting innovation area around data lineage. Tracing is becoming a big thing. We're seeing that. I was just talking with the Snowflake co-founder the other day here in theCUBE about data access and they're building a proprietary mesh on top of the clouds to figure out, Hey, I don't want to give just some tool access to data because I don't know what's on the other side of those tools. Now they had a robust ecosystem. So I can see this whole vendor risk supply chain challenge around integration as a huge problem space that you guys are attacking. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah. Integration is tricky because we want to be really particular about who we allow access into our environment or where we're punching holes in the firewall and piping data out out of the environment. And that can quickly become unwieldy just with the control that we have. Now, if we give access to a third party, we then don't have any control over who they're sharing our information with. When I talk to CISOs today about this challenge, a lot of folks are scratching their head, a lot of folks treat this as a pet project. Like how do I control the larger span beyond just the third parties? How do I know that their software partners, their contractors that they're working with building their tools are doing a good job? And even if I know, meaning, John, you might send me a list of all of your vendors. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't really have the right to go reach out to my vendors' vendors knocking on their door saying, hi, I'm Sam. I'm working with John and he's your customer. And I need to make sure that you're protecting my data. It's an awkward chain of conversation. So we're building some tools that help the security teams hold the entire ecosystem accountable. We actually have a capability called automatic vendor discovery. We can go detect who are the vendors of a company based on the connections that we see, the inbound and outbound connections. And what often ends up happening John is we're bringing to the attention to our customers, awareness about inbound and outbound connections. They had no idea existed. There were the shadow IT and the ghost vendors that were signed without going through an assessment. We detect those connections and then they can go triage and reduce the risk accordingly. >> I think that risk assessment of vendors is key. I was just reading a story about this, about how a percentage, I forget the number. It was pretty large of applications that aren't even being used that are still on in companies. And that becomes a safe haven for bad actors to hang out and penetrate 'cause they get overlooked 'cause no one's using them, but they're still online. And so there's a whole, I called cleaning up the old dead applications that are still connected. >> That happens all the time. Those applications also have applications that are dead and applications that are alive may also have users that are dead as well. So you have that problem at the application level, at the user level. We also see a permutation of what you describe, which is leftover artifacts due to configuration mistakes. So a company just put up a new data center, a satellite office in Singapore and they hired a team to go install all the hardware. Somebody accidentally left an administrative portal exposed to the public internet and nobody knew the internet works, the lights are on, the office is up and running, but there was something that was supposed to be turned off that was left turned on. So sometimes we bring to company's attention and they say, that's not mine. That doesn't belong to me. And we're like, oh, well, we see some reason why. >> It's his fault. >> Yeah and they're like, oh, that was the contractor set up the thing. They forgot to turn off the administrative portal with the default login credentials. So we shut off those doors. >> Yeah. Sam, this is really something that's not talked about a lot in the industry that we've become so reliant on managed services and other people, CISOs, CIOs, and even all departments that have applications, even marketing departments, they become reliant on agencies and other parties to do stuff for them which inherently just increases the risk here of what they have. So there inherently could be as secure as they could be, but yet exposed completely on the other side. >> That's right. We have so many virtual touch points with our partners, our vendors, our managed service providers, suppliers, other third parties, and all the humans that are involved in that mix. It creates just a massive ripple effect. So everybody in a chain can be doing things right. And if there's one bad link, the whole chain breaks. I know it's like the cliche analogy, but it rings true. >> Supply chain trust again. Trust who you trust. Let's see how those all reconcile. So Sam, I have to ask you, okay, you're a former CISO. You've seen many movies in the industry. Co-founded this company. You're in the front lines. You've got some cool things happening. I can almost imagine the vision is a lot more than just providing a rating and score. I'm sure there's more vision around intelligence, automation. You mentioned vault, wallet capabilities, exchanging keys. We heard at re:Inforce automated reasoning, metadata reasoning. You got all kinds of crypto and quantum. I mean, there's a lot going on that you can tap into. What's your vision where you see SecurityScorecard going? >> When we started the company, the rating was the thing that we sold and it was a language that helped technical and non-technical folks alike level the playing field and talk about risk and use it to drive their strategy. Today, the rating just opens the door to that discussion and there's so much additional value. I think in the next one to two years, we're going to see the rating becomes standardized. It's going to be more frequently asked or even required or leveraged by key decision makers. When we're doing business, it's going to be like, Hey, show me your scorecard. So I'm seeing the rating get baked more and more the lexicon of risk. But beyond the rating, the goal is really to make a world a safer place. Help transform and rise the tide. So all ships can lift. In order to do that, we have to help companies, not only identify the risk, but also rectify the risk. So there's tools we build to really understand the full risk. Like we talked about the inside, the outside, the fourth parties, fifth parties, the real ecosystem. Once we identified where are all the Fs and bad things, will then what? So couple things that we're doing. We've launched a pro serve arm to help companies. Now companies don't have to pay to fix the score. Anybody, like I said, can fix the score completely free of charge, but some companies need help. They ask us and they say, Hey, I'm looking for a trusted advisor. A Sherpa, a guide to get me to a better place or they'll say, Hey, I need some pen testing services. So we've augmented a service arm to help accelerate the remediation efforts. We're also partnered with different industries that use the rating as part of a larger picture. The cyber rating isn't the end all be all. When companies are assessing risk, they may be looking at a financial ratings, ESG ratings, KYC AML, cyber security, and they're trying to form a complete risk profile. So we go and we integrate into those decision points. Insurance companies, all the top insurers, re-insurers, brokers are leveraging SecurityScorecard as an ingredient to help underwrite for cyber liability insurance. It's not the only ingredient, but it helps them underwrite and identify the help and price the risk so they can push out a policy faster. First policy is usually the one that's signed. So time to quote is an important metric. We help to accelerate that. We partner with credit rating agencies like Fitch, who are talking to board members, who are asking, Hey, I need a third party, independent verification of what my CISO is saying. So the CISO is presenting the rating, but so are the proxy advisors and the ratings companies to the board. So we're helping to inform the boards and evolve how they're thinking about cyber risk. We're helping with the insurance space. I think that, like you said, we're only scratching the surface. I can see, today we have about 50,000 companies that are engaging a rating and there's no reason why it's not going to be in the millions in just the next couple years here. >> And you got the capability to bring in more telemetry and see the new things, bring that into the index, bring that into the scorecard and then map that to potential any vulnerabilities. >> Bingo. >> But like you said, the old days, when you were dating yourself, you were in a glass room with a door lock and key and you can see who's two folks in there having lunch, talking database. No one's going to get hurt. Now that's gone, right? So now you don't know who's out there and machines. So you got humans that you don't know and you got machines that are turning on and off services, putting containers out there. Who knows what's in those payloads. So a ton of surface area and complexity to weave through. I mean only is going to get done with automation. >> It's the only way. Part of our vision includes not attempting to make a faster questionnaire, but rid ourselves of the process all altogether and get more into the continuous assessment mindset. Now look, as a former CISO myself, I don't want another tool to log into. We already have 50 tools we log into every day. Folks don't need a 51st and that's not the intent. So what we've done is we've created today, an automation suite, I call it, set it and forget it. Like I'm probably dating myself, but like those old infomercials. And look, and you've got what? 50,000 vendors business partners. Then behind there, there's another a hundred thousand that they're using. How are you going to keep track of all those folks? You're not going to log in every day. You're going to set rules and parameters about the things that you care about and you care depending on the nature of the engagement. If we're exchanging sensitive data on the network layer, you might care about exposed database. If we're doing it on the app layer, you're going to look at application security vulnerabilities. So what our customers do is they go create rules that say, Hey, if any of these companies in my tier one critical vendor watch list, if they have any of these parameters, if the score drops, if they drop below a B, if they have these issues, pick these actions and the actions could be, send them a questionnaire. We can send the questionnaire for you. You don't have to send pen and paper, forget about it. You're going to open your email and drag the Excel spreadsheet. Those days are over. We're done with that. We automate that. You don't want to send a questionnaire, send a report. We have integrations, notify Slack, create a Jira ticket, pipe it to ServiceNow. Whatever system of record, system of intelligence, workflow tools companies are using, we write in and allow them to expedite the whole. We're trying to close the window. We want to close the window of the attack. And in order to do that, we have to bring the attention to the people as quickly as possible. That's not going to happen if someone logs in every day. So we've got the platform and then that automation capability on top of it. >> I love the vision. I love the utility of a scorecard, a verification mark, something that could be presented, credential, an image, social proof. To security and an ongoing way to monitor it, observe it, update it, add value. I think this is only going to be the beginning of what I would see as much more of a new way to think about credentialing companies. >> I think we're going to reach a point, John, where and some of our customers are already doing this. They're publishing their scorecard in the public domain, not with the technical details, but an abstracted view. And thought leaders, what they're doing is they're saying, Hey, before you send me anything, look at my scorecard securityscorecard.com/securityrating, and then the name of their company, and it's there. It's in the public domain. If somebody Googles scorecard for certain companies, it's going to show up in the Google Search results. They can mitigate probably 30, 40% of inbound requests by just pointing to that thing. So we want to give more of those tools, turn security from a reactive to a proactive motion. >> Great stuff, Sam. I love it. I'm going to make sure when you hit our site, our company, we've got camouflage sites so we can make sure you get the right ones. I'm sure we got some copyright dates. >> We can navigate the decoys. We can navigate the decoys sites. >> Sam, thanks for coming on. And looking forward to speaking more in depth on showcase that we have upcoming Amazon Startup Showcase where you guys are going to be presenting. But I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for sharing what you guys are working on. We really appreciate. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Coming in from New York city is the co-founder, chief operating officer of securityscorecard.com. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>>from the cube studios in Palo alto >>in boston >>connecting with thought leaders all around the >>world. This >>is a cute conversation. Hello and welcome to today's session of the AWS Global Public sector Partner Awards. I'm your host Natalie ehrlich. Today we're going to focus on the following award for best partner transformation. I'm pleased to introduce our guests, josh door smith, vice president of public sector at Effectual and jeremy Yates, deputy technology architect at jenny May. Welcome gentlemen so glad to have you on our show. >>Hi there. Very nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me >>terrific. Well josh, I'd like to start with you. How can companies leverage cloud native solutions to deliver higher quality services? >>So Natalie, that's a great question. And in the public sector and our our government customers, we run into this all the time. It's kind of our bread and butter. What what they can do is the first thing they need to be aware of is you don't have to be afraid of the cloud as some very obscure technology that is just emerging. It's been out for 10, 11 years now, customers across government space are using it lock stock and barrel to do everything from just managing simple applications, simple websites all the way through hosting their entire infrastructure, both in production and for disaster recovery purposes as well. So the first thing to note is just don't be afraid of the cloud. Um secondly, it's, it's imperative that they select the right partner who is able to kind of be there Sherpa to go into however far they want to dip their toe into the, into the proverbial cloud waters. Um to select somebody who knows whatever it is that they need to go do. So if they want to go Aws as we are talking about today, pick a partner who has the right experience, past performance designations and competencies with the cloud that they're interested in. >>Terrific. Well, you know, Jeremy, I'd love to move to you. What does modern modernization mean to jenny May? >>Sure, Thanks Natalie, great to be here. Thanks josh as well, you know. So for jenny May, modernization is really, it's not just technology is holistic across the organization. So that includes things like the business, um not just you know, the the I. T. Division. So we're looking at the various things to modernize like our culture and structural changes within the organization. Um moving to implement some, some proven practices like def sec ops and continuous integration and continuous delivery or deployment. Uh and then, you know, our overall overarching goal is to give the best and most secure technology to the business that we can to meet the Jeannie Mai mission and the needs of our customers >>terrific. Well josh, how is Effectual planning to support jenny Maes modernization plans? >>So we have been supporting jenny May for about 14 months now. Uh and back in september of last year, we rewarded a co prime 10 year contract for Jeannie Mai to do exactly that. It's to provide all things cloud to Jeannie Mai for 10 years on AWS and that's including reselling AWS. That's including providing all sorts of professional services to them. And it's, it's providing some third party software applications to help them support their applications themselves. So what Effectual is doing is kind of a threefold. We are supporting the modernization of their process, which jeremy mentioned a moment ago and that includes in stan shih ating a cloud center of Excellence for jenny May, which enables them to modernize the way they do cloud governance while they're modernizing their technology stack. We're also providing a very expert team of cloud architects and Dempsey cops engineers to be able to, to design the Jeannie Mai environment, collaborating with our co prime uh to ensure that it meets the security requirements, the compliance requirements that jerry mentions. Uh, Jeannie Mai is a federal entity, but it also has to adhere to all the finance industry uh compliance requirements as well. So very strenuous from that perspective. And then the third thing that we're doing to help them kind of along their modernization journey is in stan shih aging infrastructure as code. So in the cloud, rather than building everything in the AWS management console, we script everything to build it automatically, so it improves consistency, it improves the customer experience regardless of which resource is working on it. And it improves disaster recovery capability as well. And also, just quite frankly, the speed by which they can actually deploy things. >>And jeremy, how is this transition helping your security really enhancing it now? >>Uh From a security perspective we're implementing a number of various tools um both, you know, a W. S based as well as other software that josh mentioned. Um So we're able to utilize those in a more scalable manner than we could previously in the traditional data center. Um we've got a number of things such as we're looking at multiple vulnerability management products like 10 of Ohio and Wallace. Um we're using uh tools such as Centra fi for our our pam or privileged access management capabilities. Um Splunk a pretty industry standard. Um software for log and data correlation and analysis um will also be using that for some system and application monitoring. Um as well as uh the Mcafee envision product for endpoint and other cloud service security. So being able to pull all those in in a more scalable and more cost efficient way as well from cloud based services. Uh, it's really helped us be able to get those services and integrate them together in a way that, you know, we may not previously been able to. >>Yeah, terrific. Well, josh, let's move back to you and talk further about compliance. You know, any insight here, how Effectual is building a modern cloud infrastructure to integrate AWS services with third party tools to really achieve compliance with the government requirements. Just any further insight on that >>front? That's a great question. Natalie and I'm gonna tag team with Jeremy on this one if you don't mind, but I'll start off so jenny may obviously I mentioned earlier has federal requirements and financial requirements so focused right now on on those federal aspects. Um, so the tools that Jeremy mentioned a moment ago, we are integrating all of them with a W. S native meaning all of the way we do log aggregation in the various tools within AWS cloudwatch cloud trail. All of those things were implementing an AWS native, integrating them with Splunk to aggregate all of that information. But then one of the key requirements that's coming up with the federal government in the very near future is tick three dot or trusted internet connection. Basically in the first iteration a decade or so ago, the government wanted to limit the amount of points of presence that they have with the public facing internet fast forward several versions to today and they're pushing that that onus back on the various entities like jenny May and like hud, which Jeannie Mai is a part of but they still want to have that kind of central log repository to where all of the, all of the security logs and vulnerability logs and things like that. Get shipped to a central repository and that will be part of DHS. So what effectual has done in partnership with jenny May is create a, a W. S native solution leveraging some of those third party tools that we mentioned earlier to get all of those logs aggregated in a central repository for Ginny MaE to inspect ingest and take action from. But then also provide the mechanism to send that to DHS to do that and correlate that information with everything coming in from feeds across the government. Now that's not required just yet. But we're future proofing jenny Maes infrastructure in order to be able to facilitate adherence to those requirements when it becomes uh required. Um, and so jeremy, I'll pass it over to you to talk a little bit further about that because I know that's one of the things that's near and dear to your sister's heart as well as jenny may overall. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thanks josh. Um, so yeah, we, as you mentioned, we have implemented um, uh, sort of a hybrid tech model right now, um, to to handle compliance on that front. Um, so we're still using a, you know, some services from the legacy or our existing T two dot x models. That that josh was mentioning things such as m tips, um, uh, the Einstein sensors, etcetera. But we're also implementing that take 30 architecture on our own. As josh mentioned that that will allow us to sort of future proof and and seamlessly really transitioned to once we make that decision or guidance comes out or, you know, mandates or such. Um, so that effort is good to future proof house from a compliance perspective. Um, also, you know, the tools that I mentioned, uh, josh reiterated, those are extremely important to our our security and compliance right. Being able to ensure, you know, the integrity and the confidentiality of of our systems and our data is extremely important. Not both, not just both on the r not only on the government side, but as josh mentioned, the finance side as well. >>Terrific. Well, I'd love to get your insight to on AWS workspaces. Um, if either one of you would like to jump in on this question, how did they empower the jenny May team to work remotely through this pandemic? >>That's a great question. I guess I'll start and then we'll throw it to jeremy. Um, so obviously uh effectual started working with jenny May about three weeks after the pandemic formally started. So perfect timing for any new technology initiative. But anyway, we, we started talking with Jeremy and with his leadership team about what is required to actually facilitate and enable our team as well as the government resources and the other contractors working for jenny May to be able to leverage the new cloud environment that we were building and the very obvious solution was to implement a virtual desktop infrastructure uh type solution. And obviously Jeannie Mai had gone all in on amazon web services, so it became the national natural fit to look first at AWS workspaces. Um, so we have implemented that solution. There are now hundreds of jenny May and jenny make contractor resources that have a WS workspaces functioning in the GovCloud regions today and that's a very novel approach to how to facilitate and enable not only our team who is actually configuring the infrastructure, but all the application developers, the security folks and the leadership on the jenny may side to be able to access, review, inspect, check log etcetera, through this remote capability. It's interesting to note that Jeannie Mai has been entirely remote since the pandemic initiated. Jeremy's coming to us from, from west Virginia today, I'm coming to us from national harbor Maryland And we are operating totally remotely with a team of 60 folks about supporting this specific initiative for the cloud, not to mention the hundreds that are supporting the applications that Jamie runs to do its day to day business. So jeremy, if you wouldn't mind talking about that day to day business that jenny may has and, and kind of what the, the mission statement of Jeannie Mai is and how us enabling these workspaces uh facilitates that mission >>or you know, so the part of the overall mission of jenny Maes to, to ensure affordable housing is, is made available to uh, the american public. Um that's hud and, and jenny may as part of that and we provide um mortgage backed securities to help enable that. Um, so we back a lot of V A. Loans, um, F H A, those sort of loans, um, workspaces has been great in that manner from a technology perspective, I think because as you mentioned, josh, it's really eliminated the need for on premise infrastructure, right? We can be geographically dispersed, We can be mobile, um, whether we're from the east coast or west coast, we can access our environment securely. Uh, and then we can, you know, administer and operate and maintain the technology that the business needs to, to fulfill the mission. Um, and because we're able to do that quickly and securely and effectively, that's really helpful for the business >>Terrific. And um, you know, I'd like to shift gears a bit and uh you know, discuss what you're looking ahead toward. What is your vision for 2021? How do you see this partnership evolving? >>Yeah, you >>Take that 1/1. >>Sure. Yeah. Um you know, definitely some of the things we look forward to in 2021 as we evolve here is we're going to continue our cloud journey um you know, through practices like Deb said cops, you realize that uh that journey has never done. It's always a continual improvement process. It's a loop to continually work towards um a few specific things or at least one specific thing that we're looking forward to in the future, as josh mentioned earlier was our arctic three Oh Initiative. Um, so with that we think will be future proofed. Um as there's been a lot of um a lot of recent cyber security activity and things like that, that's going to create um opportunities I think for the government and Jeannie Mai is really looking forward to to leading in that area. >>Mhm and josh, can you weigh in quickly on that? >>Absolutely. Uh First and foremost we're very much looking forward to receiving authority to operate with our production environment. We have been preparing for that for this last year plus. Uh but later on this summer we will achieve that 80 oh status. And we look forward to starting to migrate the applications into production for jenny May. And then for future proof, it's as jerry jerry mentioned, it's a journey and we're looking forward to cloud optimizing all of their applications to ensure that they're spending the right money in the right places uh and and ensuring that they're not spending over on any of the one given area. So we're very excited to optimize and then see what the technology that we're being able to provide to them will bring to them from an idea and a conceptual future for jenny may. >>Well thank you both so very much for your insights. It's been a really fantastic interview. Our guests josh duggar smith as well as jeremy Gates. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you very much. >>Thank you so much. >>Terrific. Well, I'm your host for the cube Natalie or like to stay tuned for more coverage. Thanks so much for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering South by Southwest 2017, brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hey, welcome everyone back for day two of live coverage of South by Southwest. This is the cube, our flagship program from Silicon Angle. We go out to the events and extract the (mumbles). We're at the Intel AI Lounge, people are rolling in, it's an amazing vibe here, South by Southwest. The themes are AI, virtual reality, augmented reality, technology. They got great booths here, free beers, free drinks, and of course great sessions and great conversations here with the Cube. My first guest of the day here is Ben Parr, a friend of the Cube. He's been an entrepreneur, he's been a social media maven, he's been a journalist, all around great guy. Ben, thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you for having me again. >> So you're a veteran with South by Southwest, you know the social scene, you've seen the evolution from Web 2.0 all the way to today, had Scobel on yesterday, Brian Fanzo, really the vibe is all about that next level, of social to connecting and you got a startup you're working on that you founded, co-founded called AI? >> Ben: Octane AI. >> Octane AI, that's in the heart of this new social fabric that's developing. Where AI is starting to do stuff, keep learning, analytics but, ultimately, it's just a connection. Talk about your company. What is Octane AI? Tell us a little bit about the company. >> So Octane AI is a platform that lets you build an audience on Facebook Messenger and then through a bot. And so, what we do is allow you to create a presence on Messenger because if I told you there was a social app that had a billion users every month, bigger than Snapchat plus Twitter plus Instagram combined you'd want to figure out a strategy for how to engage with those people right? And that social app is Facebook Messenger. And yet no one ever thinks, oh could I build an audience on a messaging app? Could I build an audience on Messenger or WeChat or any of the others. But you can through a bot. And you can not just build an audience but you can create really engaging content through conversation. So what we've done is, we've made it really easy to make a bot on messenger but more importantly, a real reason for people to, actually, come to your bot and engage with it and make it really easy to create content for it. In the same way you create content for a blog or create content for YouTube Channel. Maroon 5, Aerosmith, KISS, Lindsay Lohan, 30 seconds to MARS, Jason Derulo and a whole bunch more use us to build an audience and engage their fans on Messenger. >> So let me get your thoughts on a couple of trends around this. Cause this is really kind of, to me, a key part that chat bots illustrate the big trends that are going on. Chat bots were the hype. People were talking about, oh chat bots. It's a good mental model for people to see AI but it also has been, kind of, I won't say a pest, if you will, for users. It's been like a notification. A notification of the economy we're living in. Now you're taking it to the next level. This is what we're seeing. The deep learnings and the analytics around turning notifications which can be noisy after a while, into real content and connections. >> Into something useful, absolutely. Like look, the last year of bots. The Facebook platform is not even a year old. We've been in that fart apps stage of bots. Remember the first year of mobile apps? You had the fart app and that made $50,000 a day and that was annoying as hell. We're at that stage now, the experimentation stage. And we've seen different companies going in different, really cool directions. Our direction is, how do you create compelling content so you're not spamming people but you have content that you can share, not just in your bot but as a link on your social media to your followers, to your fans, on Twitter, everywhere else and have a scalable conversation about whatever you want. Maroon 5 has conversations with their audience about their upcoming tours or they even released an exclusive preview of their new song, Cold, through our bots. You could do almost anything with our bots or with any bot. We're just learning right now, as an industry, what are the best practices. >> So where do bots go for the next level? Because you and I have known each other for almost over 10 years, we've seen the whole movement and now we're living in a fake news era. But social media is evolving where content now is super important that glues people together, communities together. In a way, you're taking AI or bots, if you will. Which is a first, I mean, .5 version of where AI is going. Where content, now, is being blended into notifications. How important is content in community? >> Content in community are essential to any product. And I feel like when you hear the word bot, you don't think community and that you could build a community with it because it's a bot, it's supposed to be automated. But you, actually, can if you do it in the right way and it can be a very, very powerful experience. We're building features that allow you to build more community in your bot and have people who are talking with your bot communicate with each other. There's a lot of that. What I feel like is, we're at the zero point one or zero point two of the long scale of AI. What we need to do right now is showcase all the use cases that really work for AI, bots, machine learning. Over time, we will be adding more other great technologies from Intel and others that will make all these technologies and everything we do better, more social and most of all, more personalized. I think that's one of the big benefits of AI. >> Do you see bot technology or what bots can turn into being embedded into things like autonomous vehicles, AR, is there a stack developing, if you will, around bots? What you're talking about is a progression of bots. What's your vision on where this goes down the road? >> I see a bunch of companies, now, building the technological stack for AI. I see a bunch of companies building the consumer interface, bots is one of those consumer interfaces. Not just chat bots but voice bots. And then I see another layer that's more enterprise that's helping make more efficient things like recruiting or all sorts of automation or driving. That are being built as well. But you need each of those stacks to work really well to make this all work. >> So are there bots here at South by Southwest? Is there a bot explosion, is there bots that tell you where the best parties are? What's the scene here at Southby? Where are the bots and if there were bots, what would they be doing to help people figure out what to do? >> The Southby bot is, actually, not a bad bot. They launched their bot just before South by Southwest. It has a good party recommendations and things. But it the standard bot. I feel like what we're seeing is the best use, there's a lot of good bot people. What I'm seeing right now is that people are still flushing out the best use cases for their bots. There's no bot yet that can predict all the parties you want to go to. We got to have our expectations set. That will happen but we're still a few years away from really deep AI bots. But there are clearly ones where you can communicate faster with your friends. There's clearly ones that help you connect with your favorite artist. There's clearly ones that help you build an audience and communicate at scale. And I feel like the next step is the usefulness. >> Talk about the user interface. Robert Scobel and I were talking yesterday, we have some guests coming on today that had user experience background. With AI, with virtual reality, with bots, with deep learning, all this collective intelligence going on, what's your vision of the user interface as it changes, as people's expectations? What are some of those things that you might see developing pretty quickly as deep learning, analytics, more data stats come online? What is the user interface? Cause bots will intersect with that as an assistant or a value add for the user. What's your vision on? >> I'll tell you what I see in the near term and then I'll tell you a really crazy idea of how I see the long term. In the near term, I think what you're going to see is bots have become more predictive. That, based on your conversations, are more personalized and maybe not a necessarily need as much input from you to be really intelligent. And so voice, text, standard interfaces that we're used to. I think the bigger, longer run is neurological. Is the ability to interface without having to speak. Is AI as a companion to help us in everything we do. I feel like, in 30 years, we won't even, it's, kind of like, do your remember the world when it had no internet? It's hard, it feels so much different. There will be a point in about 20 years we will not understand what the world was before AI. Before AI assistance where assisting us mentally, automatically and through every interface. And so good AI's, in the long run, don't just run on one bot or one thing, they follow you wherever you go. Right now it might be on your phone. When you get home, it may be on your home, it may be in your car but it should be the same sets of AI's that you use daily. >> Doctor Nevine Rou, yesterday, called the AI the bulldozer for data. What bulldozers where in the real world, AI's going to do that for data. Cause you want to service more data and make things more usable for users. >> Yes, the data really helps AI become more personalized and that's a really big benefit to the user to every individual. The more personalized the experience, the less you have to do. >> Alright, so what's the most amazing thing you've seen so far this year at Southby? What's going on out there that's pretty amazing? That's popping out of the wood work? In terms of either trend, content, product, demos, what are some of the cool things you're seeing. >> So, as it is only Saturday, I feel like the coolest thing will still come to me. But outside of AI, there have been some really cool mixed reality, augmented reality demos. I can't remember the name. There's a product with butterflies flying around me. All sorts of really breaking edge technologies that, really, create another new interface honestly where AI may interact with us through the augmented reality of our world. I mean, that's Robert Scogul's thing exactly. But there's a lot of really cool things that are being built on that front. I think those are the obvious, coolest ones. I'm curious to see which ones are going to be the big winners. >> Okay, so I want to ask you a personal question. So you were doing some venture investing around AI and some other things. What caused you to put that pause button on that mission to start the chat bot AI company? >> So I was an investor for a couple of years. I invested in ubean, the wireless electricity company and Shots with Justin Bieber which is always fun. And I love investing and I love working with companies. But I got into Silicone Valley and I got into startups because I wanted to build companies. I wanted to build ideas. This happened, in part, because of my co-founders. My co-founder Matt, who is the first head of product at Ustream and twice into the Forbes 30 under 30. One of the king makers of the bot industry. The opportunity to be a part of building the future of AI was irresistible to me. I needed to be a part of that. >> Okay, can you tell any stories about Justin Bieber for us, while we're here inside the Cube? (laughs) >> I wonder how many of those I can, actually, tell? Okay, so look. Justin Bieber is an investor in a company I'm an investor in called Shots. Which is now a super studio that represents everyone from Lele Pons to Mike Tyson on digital online and they're doing really, really well. One of Justin's best friends is the founder, John Shahidi. And so it's just really random. Sitting with John, who I invested in and just getting random FaceTime's. Be like, oh it's Justin Bieber, say hi to Justin. As if it was nothing. As if it was a normal, it's a normal day in his life. >> Could you just have him retweet one of my Tweets. He's got like a zillion followers. What's his follower count at now? >> You don't want that. He's done that to me before. When Justin retweets you or even John retweets you, thousands of not tens of thousands of Justin Bieber fans, bots and not bots, start messaging you, asking you to follow them, talking to you all the time. I still get the tweets all the time from all the Justin fans. >> Okay don't tweet me then. I'm nice and happy with 21,000 followers. Alright, so next level for you in terms of this venture. Obviously, they got some rock stars in there. What's the next step for you guys right now? Give us a little inside baseball in the venture status where you guys are at. What's the next step? >> We launched the company publicly in November, we started in May. We raised 1.6 million from general catalyst, from Sherpa Ventures, a couple of others. When we launched our new feature, Convos, which allows you to create shareable bots, shareable conversations with the way you share blog posts. And that came out with all those launch partners I mentioned before like Maroon 5. We're working on perfecting the experience and, mostly, trying to make a really, really compelling experience with the user with bots because if we can't do that, then there's no use to doing anything. >> So you provide the octane for the explosive conversations? (laughs) >> Yes, there you go, thank you, thank you. And we make it really easy. So we're just trying to make it easier to do this. This is a product that your mom could use, that an artist could use, any social media team could use. Writing a convo is like writing a blog post on media. >> Are moms really getting the chat bot scene? I, honestly, get the Hollywood. I'm going to go back to Hollywood in a second but being a general, middle America kind of tech/genre, what are they like? Are they grokking the whole bot thing? What's the feedback from middle America tech? >> But think of it this way. There are a billion people on Messenger and it's a, really, part of the question, they all use Facebook Messenger. And so, they may be communicating with a bot without knowing it. Or they might want to communicate with their fans. It's not about the technology as much as this is like connecting with who you really care about. If I really care about a Maroon 5 or Rachel Ray, I can now have that option. And it doesn't really matter what the technology is as much as it is that personal connection, that experience is good. >> John: Is it one-one-one or group? Cause it sounds like it's town hall, perfect for a town hall situation. >> It's one-on-one, it's scale. So you could have a conversation with a bot while each of the audience members is having a conversation one-on-one. When you can choose different options and it could be a different conversation for each person. >> Alright, so I got to ask about the Hollywood scene. You mentioned Justin Bieber. I wanted to go down that because Hollywood really has adopted social media pretty heavily because they can go direct to the audience. We're seeing that. Obviously, with the election, Trump was on Twitter. He bypasses all the press but Hollywood has done very well with social. How are they using the bots? They are a tell sign of where it's going. Can you share some antidotal stories or data around how Maroon 5, Justin, these guys are leveraging this and what's some of the impact? >> Sure, so about a month 1/2, 2 months before Maroon 5 launched their new song, new single, Cold. They came to us and wanted to build a distribution. They wanted to reach their audience in a more direct personal way. And so we helped them make a bot. It didn't take long. We helped them write convos. And so what they did was they wrote convos about things like exclusive behind the scenes photos from their recent tour or their top moments of 2016 or things that their fans really care about. And they shared em. They got a URL just like you would get, a blog poster URL. They shared it out with their 39 million Facebook fans, they shared it with their Twitter followers, they shared it across their social media. And 10's of thousand's of people started talking with their bot each time they did this. About 24 hours before the bot, before their new single release, they exclusively released a 10 second clip of Cold through their bot. And when they did that, within 24 hours, the size of their bot doubled because it went viral within the Maroon 5 community. There's a share function in our convos and people shared the convo with their friends and with their friends friends and it kept on spreading. We saw this viral graph happen. And the next day when they released the single, 1000's of people bought the song because of the bot alone. And now the bot is a core of their social strategy. They share a convo every single week and it's not just them but now Lohan and a whole bunch of others are doing the same thing. >> John: Lindsay Lohan. >> Lindsay Lohan is one of our most popular bots. Her fans are really dedicated. >> And so you can almost see it's, almost connecting with CGI, looking at what CGI's doing in film making. You could almost have a CGI component built-in. So it's all this stuff coming together. >> Ben: Multimedia matters. >> So what do you think about the Intel booth here? The AI experience? They got some Kinetic photo experience, amazing non-profit activities in deep loading (mumbles), missing children, what do you think? >> This is some of the best use cases for AI which is, people think of AI as just like the direct consumer interface which is what we do but AI is an underlying layer to everything we do. And if it can help even 1% or 1,000% identify and find missing children or increase the efficiency of our technology stacks so that we save energy. Or we figure out new ways to save energy. This is where AI can really make an impact. It is just a fundamental layer of everything. In the same way the internet is just a fundamental layer of everything. So I've seen some very cool things here. >> Alright, Ben Parr, great guest, in venture capitalist now founder of a great company Octane AI. High octane, explosive conversations looking forward to adopting. We're going to, definitely, take advantage of the chat bot and maybe we can get some back stage passes to Maroon 5. (laughs) >> (laughs) There will be some fun times in the future, I know it. >> Alright Ben Parr. >> Ben: Justin Bieber. >> Justin Bieber inside the Cube right here and Ben Parr. Thanks for watching. It's the Intel AI Lounge. A lot of great stuff. A lot of great people here. Thanks for joining us. Our next guest will be up after this short break. (lively music)