>>Mm. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of A W s reinvent 2021 were running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events of the year with A W S and its ecosystem partners. And, of course, special thanks to a M D for supporting this year's editorial coverage at the event we got to live sets we had to remote sets one in Boston, one in Palo Alto. We've got more than 100 guests coming on the programme and we're looking >>deep into >>the next decade of cloud innovation. We're super excited to be joined by Ali Zafar, who is the senior director of platform strategy and operations at Dropbox Ali. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Awesome. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Dave. >>So Hey, what's your day job like at Dropbox? What's your role? >>Got it? Yeah. So I actually oversee the global supply chain at Dropbox. Also all of the capacity planning which entails both our budget and also capacity requirements and Dropbox. And then I also focus on the platform product management side which is basically building our build vs buy and our overall roadmap for our platform in the long run. >>Great. Thank you. So I mean, everybody knows Dropbox, But maybe you can talk a little bit about your business, your mission and how that's evolved. Over the past several years. >>Dropbox is a global collaboration platform, and our mission at Dropbox is to help design a more enlightened way of working. Dropbox has over 700 million registered users and over 550 billion pieces of content. So taking a step back, they've dropbox health. Let's use all of your content. Think of this as videos as music. Even your tax returns allows you to organise all of this content. And then you can share this content with anybody at any time. You can also take Dropbox to work. And actually, it makes you even more productive in the workplace integrating all of your tools seamlessly, also allowing you to collaborate with all of your teams internally and also externally. >>Yeah, so thank you. Uh, when Dropbox was founded, I mean, the cloud was really nascent, right? So it was early days, and so a lot has changed since you know, the mid last decade. And of course, with remote work and hybrid work that had to be a real tailwind to your business. But maybe you could explain your cloud and your hybrid cloud strategy. >>You're spot on Dave. So Dropbox has always been hybrid since its inception in 2000 and seven. And when I say hybrid, I mean, we have our own on prime infrastructure, and then we also leverage Public Cloud. Now, Public cloud still to these days remains absolutely critical for Dropbox to serve all of its customer needs. And when we talk about the decision between public or private, we think about three or four key things. One is the total cost of ownership. Look at the market. We also look at our customer requirements and the latest technology that's available in the market and then any international data storage requirements to make the decision of going towards public or private for that specific use case. >>So what if we could follow up on that? Like maybe you can talk about the key business, these conditions as a as a SAS storage provider? What are the real drivers in in your business framework? >>Got it at the end of the day, what really matters for us. There is to actually think about our customers and delight them And what better than to focus on performance, reliability and also security. Right. So we want to make sure that the infrastructure that we have today allows Dropbox to actually solve for the specific use case for our customers. What do they care about while also doing this in a very efficient management Manage, uh, way So to summarise that looking at performance, looking at liability, looking at scalability, looking at efficiency and then also compliance >>So that leads me to My next question is about the EC two instances that you use. I know you. You make heavy use of AMG compute. How >>did you >>come to that decision? Was that these factors was all performance. How did you migrate to really enable that capability? How complex was that? >>MD has has been a key strategic partners the partnership as well over 4 to 5 years right now and we've been leveraging them on our on prem infrastructure for compute. So we've always had aimed in our infrastructure. And when the time came where aws was also leveraging some of the MD instances, we wanted to see how we can expand the partnership with AMG and A W S and also experiment with these instances. So we looked at some of the tooling updates that were required. We also looked at specific instances which are either compute optimised and memory optimised instances. And then we actually build our footprint on M D. And what we saw is that the overall performance improvements and also cost improvements that we got for specific workloads. It was actually extremely, uh, overall awesome results for Dropbox and our customers, and we have been using them ever since. >>What kind of business impact did that make that make a difference to your business? That was noticeable >>on the business side, I think primarily it was more on the TCO side, which is where we got most of the benefits on the cost side. Um, and then also for some of our internal work clothes, we also saw benefit, uh, to our internal developers that are using some of those work clothes. >>Well, so you guys have kind of become the poster child for hybrid. A lot has been talked about about you all, but I wonder if you could help us understand what part of your infrastructure is going to be better served by public cloud versus kind of doing your own. I t on Prem. What are some of the value drivers that are that are making, you know, push workloads into the public cloud? Help us understand that better and squint through that >>got ready. I get asked that question a lot. So public cloud in general allows for faster go to market, Think about this as, like product launches teacher launches also international expansion. It allows us to scale and then also leveraging some of the existing technologies out there in the market for some of the common workloads. So just, you know, taking a step back and thinking about Dropbox. We keep on evaluating also the criteria and then also specific workloads on what makes sense on private or public load. And a W s had some instances, like as three rds and EC to that when we started looking at, we knew that some of our key services, like data platform, some parts of our, um, Melania and even paper platform would make more sense for us to actually leverage. Uh, some of these in public cloud for that. >>So what are the sort of characteristics of the workload that are sort of better suited to be in AWS? You know, what's the ideal workload profile? You know, we talk about ideal customer profile. What's the ideal workload profile for the for the AWS Cloud. >>Got it. So the way we think about it, at least we call it the rule of three at Dropbox. Um, and that means we look at scale. First, we look at technology and innovation. Um, and what I mean by that is, is there faster innovation in the public cloud? And is the workload common enough that there's already a lot of work going on in public Cloud? Then there's no reason for us to actually innovate faster than that. We probably can't. And if the scale is not large enough, right? So when we talk about our storage side like magic pocket, the scale is large enough. We're innovating. There makes sense, and it's better for the end customer, so we will probably go towards private cloud there. But then, when we talk about like international expansion, when we talk about, like, faster go to market or some of the innovation in the space. It really makes sense to use public Cloud because of all of the advancements that we've seen there. >>Yeah, so let me circle back to the sort of business benefits and impact of the sort of a MD based compute specifically. But you talked about TCO before. So there's certain things you mentioned on Prem you sometimes use You mean right. If the thing is hardened, you don't want to necessarily rip and replace it. But if you can accelerate, go to market and you spin up things in the cloud that makes sense. You mentioned customer requirements. So that's just kind of depends. And then the international expansion and scale. So it kind of comes down to those whatever. Four or five factors, right? Tco those other factors that I mentioned kind of the high level benefits, if you could, wouldn't mind summarising for us. Ali. >>Yeah, I think you're spot on there. So it's looking at the overall Decio, right? The cost of serving the overall cloud looking at like go to market in general, like can we leverage public cloud and go to market faster? Obviously, meeting that end customer requirements. We also looked at like international expansion, like any of the customer's data that is stored outside of the US is all on public load for Dropbox. Uh, no plans in the short term to do something different there, Um and then also just looking at, like I mentioned anything in the technology space that is ongoing, that we can leverage features side or the product side for our customers, like at Yale or, uh, VRML. We are going to leverage Public cloud there. >>So of course you know we've we've followed the progression of semiconductor technology for decades. This industry has marched to the cadence of performance improvements. What are the one of the futures hold from a technology roadmap standpoint, particularly as it relates to leveraging AMG EC Two instances, Ali >>got it. So drop boxes in a very unique position where we actually leverage AMG both on Prem and for public le leveraging some of the AWS EC two instances like like you mentioned and epic processors from MDR what we're using today, both on the hybrid infrastructure site and the performance and also the d. C o benefits are real and something that we are observing on a day to day basis. So we are gonna be leveraging that technology even in the future. Um, and the partnership with the MD continues to be very, very strong for Dropbox. >>Well, I really, really appreciate you coming on the cube as part of our coverage is great to have You love to have you back sometime. >>Awesome. Thank you. And also just last thing we wanted to also call out that we are also going to be experimenting with probably Milan that is coming out. Uh, room is the current process is from a m D. That we have been leveraging. And as Milan comes available, we do wanna continue to evaluate it and see how we can fit it in our infrastructure. >>Okay, So their their generations are city based, the all Italian city based. They were going to run out of cities soon. >>God, uh, again, the partnership with both A W s and an M. D is something that I'm very proud of. Execution. Thank you, Dave. >>Great to have you, Ali. And really appreciate you watching. Keep it right there for more action on the cube. Your leader in hybrid tech event coverage. Mhm.

>> from the Cosmopolitan Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's the Cube covering Cooper inspired. 2019. Brought to you by Cooper. >> Welcome to the Cube. Lisa Martin on the ground at Cooper Inspire 19 at the Cosmopolitan, the chic Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas. Very pleased to be joined by my friend David Chang, the VP of business from Hello. Sign a drop box company. David, Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you for having me on. >> Great to have you here. It is a lot of fun. You could really geek out talking technology all day >> too much. So, >> yeah, there's that >> play that you gotta gamble. It'll keep it real. >> You know, I have no skills in that whatsoever, but maybe I'll try it. I'll take your advice. Give her audience an overview of Hello. Sign. Sure. Drop box Company. What? You guys are what you do. All that good stuff. >> Great. Great. So hello. Sign is today one of the fastest growing, if not the fastest growing electronic signature company in market place today and today we host, I think, over 100,000 paying businesses that use one of our products and over 150 different countries. today we actually were acquired by Dropbox. Sure, everybody's familiar Dropbox or one of the biggest brands in the Internet industry today by the leader in consumer and business files Thinking chair. So John Box actually purchased this, you know, for a number of reasons. First of all, even amazing product and cultural fit with them. But also, Electronic Signature Day is an enormous market. It is one piece of the overall digital transformation, but Elektronik, six year alone, analysts view, is probably a $25,000,000,000 industry, which we've only barely scratched the surface. So it's a huge opportunity, absolutely, and it's that big. That's exactly the you know. That's actually what's shocking about how big it is, because if you think about almost in every business, there are not just one, but probably dozens of different use cases where you need to sign documents. So electronic signature honestly is relevant for everything from all your sales agreements to all of your HR and offer letter and on boarding agreement. It's relevant specifically for all of your procurement and buying agreements, all your vendors contracts that need to be signed, your supply agreements that needs to be signed and D A s o purchase orders. All these documents need to be signed. And today you know, only a few of these use cases have been brought into the digital arena. So there's a whole huge area to grow. And with Dropbox being a leader and content management, where you normally store your documents, >> right, it's >> a natural workflow extension two haven't signed by. Hello, son. >> Excellent. Well, one of the things that we've been talking a lot about we talk about this in every show is the effects of consumer is Asian. And we talked about this yesterday with Rob Bernstein, Cooper's CEO in a number of gas yesterday and today is that we're consumers every day, even when we're at work. Oh, I forgot. I gotta buy this when we go on Amazon, we know we could get it in a day, but now we have the same expectations whether we're buying business, you know, software or what not? And we also want to be able to do things from our mobile phone, including sign. Hey, I got this new job offer or whatever happens to be without having out. Oh my God, there's a pdf. I have to go home, get to my desktop, talk to me about PDS because I can imagine when people either fill them out manually, then they scanning back in and somebody's gotta print it out or fax it. That date is stuck in Pdf. How does hello sign work to free dot data in a Pierre? >> Sure, our design philosophy really is about, you know, make making a superior user experience both for the person who needs to get a document, a document side, but also somebody who's actually gonna be signing it. So when we designed our products, you might as easy as possible for user's to sign that and recognizing some of the difficulties with P D EFS and signing on your mobile phone. We've made our products specifically Mobley responsive, so they don't have to pension, screen, pension, pension scan and all that kind of stuff and typing data. We make it very easy walking through the data entry process to streamline the whole process. We just want to make user customer satisfaction first and foremost >> moving the friction, probably getting documents signed much faster. >> Absolutely. I mean the base, you know, benefits associated the signature. Overall you know, our honestly getting your documents signed significantly faster and more efficiently. We have customers that used to take up to two weeks to get a contract signed. And, you know, as a salesperson, that gets your real nervous, right? So we've seen those contracts now get signed in less than a day. Also, Elektronik senator provides a tonic transparency. So throughout the process, we can actually provide notifications that let the sales people know that somebody's opened up the the >> end. Lt >> looked at the document, reviewed it, signed it, completed it. And even if the document has been signed, the consent of reminders to make sure to sign it. And the third thing is, you know you can't can't emphasize this enough. The value associate with productivity increases. Come on. Everyone's gone out. Printed out the document, walked it over to the scanning machine, you know, then uploading it back in your computer, you know that that whole step, you know, should be completely digital and automated as >> much as >> possible. So we see productivity increases to some of our customers between two x three x for X right in the number in reducing the number of man hours people have to spend to get >> documents only. Is that a cost savings? But all of the you can think of all the other benefits like we're talking about, even for the procurement officers were talking about it at Kuba inspires. It's not just saving money. It's all of the other ripple effects that cost savings, resource, reallocations, speed. All enable this digital transformation, which then enables the business Thio capture new customers. Increased customer, lifetime value, shareholder value. There's a lot of upside to this, >> especially for a company like Cooper. First of all, it's an incredible fit for what we do. Procurement documents. That whole host, um, they need to be signed but by, you know, utilizing Hello, son. We really facilitate that whole experience, and we're very excited to expand our partnership today. We're Cooper Advantage partner. >> Tell me about the Cooper Advantage program benefits. Who wins your >> coop? Advantage is this very unique marketplace that Cooper's brought together. They're pulling together both their customers, some of their lead customers and their matching them with some of the suppliers selected suppliers that provide their customers. Ah, whole host of service is that they need so it could be everything from goods and office supplies. All the way to service is like travel service is, and staffing service is all the way to software key software that their customers would utilize in conjunction with their procurement business. Spend management So companies like close on. So by matchmaking it for the suppliers, they get some pre negotiated discounts that offer them immediate savings off of buying direct from retail and then from ah, supplier side. We get huge benefits because we get to meet some of the most targeted companies that we want. So Cooper effectively is one of our favorite matchmakers. >> Nice. So, yeah, there's a tremendous amount of suppliers in their program. I forget the number and I don't want to misquote it. But I can imagine Cooper customer that's using them for procurement and expenses and invoices and payments. I talked a lot about Cooper pains of new things today. Well, then have the opportunity through the Cooper Advantage program to do prick human contract Scorpios with Hello sign as the e signature. >> Exactly, really, exactly. And that that is, like I said, a great match for what their customers need and by being virtue of a coupe advantage part. Sorry. Keep advantage Supplier. We've been pre vetted by Cooper have also worked out some special pre negotiated discounts with Cooper to make sure we passed that value on to their customers. >> So some of the things that came out today regarding yesterday as well with the Amazon extension you and I talked about the consumer ization affect a few minutes ago. What opportunities is that? Open up to Hello, sign for Cooper paid to be able to enable I t folks to have this visibility for the entire software from search to management. With this consume arised approach, open up doors for Hello Sign. >> Well, I think you know, if you look at the total life cycle of any purchase right from from beginning to end from everything from identifying the products that you want to being able to, you know, negotiate and secure a price that is good for you, you know that whole process. There's always tradition, but a lot of friction there. So the same way that there's friction on the e commerce side, we'll check out and purchase right and getting lining up your payment and Internet payment information Cooper. Streamlining that whole thing for the customer so long without sod is if there's documents they're associated with that with that workflow than by using companies like Hello Sign and our products were able to continue that process of digital izing the end and purchase cycle. >> And I imagine, from an information security perspective, everything >> Come on the old >> days usedto signed >> a contract and I thought, Oh, my boss's desk, Anybody could come by and pick that up So nowadays we you know nowadays we keep it stored securely in the cloud. We have some of the highest security requirements of any signature company out there, and that really matches Cupid's philosophy as well. They go overboard on security, which we really appreciate. That mission is completely lard with each other. >> Awesome. So last few seconds here. I know that you guys are early in the acquisition with Dropbox. What's exciting You for the rest of the calendar. 19. Since all these fiscal years are different. And what's next with you guys in Cuba? Yeah, >> So first of all, with Dropbox, we're just excited to be part of an enormous community of over 500,000,000 users globally So it's It's It's the reach is insane. >> I know >> my mom. Yeah, I think everybody has a DROPBOX account on >> eso getting introduced to their segments, whether it's a consumer segment, SMB and increasingly, the business segment offers huge brand recognition and the potential for new customers with Dropbox. So there's a great synergy from a go to market perspective, and with Cooper, we're very excited about the next stage of our partnership is entering the Cooper Link program. So, uh, you know said Now Cooper customers will be able to sign and send for signature from within the Cooper clr module. Eso any of their contracts vendor agreements that are stored within Cooper without ever having to leave Cooper. You consent for signature and seek the document back. And for a company like Cooper, this is a great strategic value. A because of the benefit it brings its customers, but also with all the great features that Cooper's coming out with leading edge. They want to keep a cz much of that procurement experience from within Cooper. They want Cooper to be that system of record per se and system of transaction for all your business. Ben Management So now you don't have to leave Cooper to perform to get your contract signed. You can do it from all within one place within Cooper, and we enable that. >> That's awesome. That's that's what we want. Keep him. In the experience of that, they actually adopted. They get it done. They're more efficient and and and well, David, it's been such a pleasure to >> have you on >> the Cube. Thank you for joining me today. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> All right, we'll see you next. Time for David Chang. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube from Cooper Inspired 19. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: theCUBE presents Ignite 22. Brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Hey, welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day two of theCUBE's coverage of Palo Alto Ignite 2022. Dave we're just talking about how many times we're in Vegas. And we were here two weeks ago with our guest who's back in Alumni. And it's a blur, right? >> It's true, I lost count. Luckily I'm not flying red eye tonight. So that's good. >> I'm impressed. >> Excited about that. >> Yeah >> I'm actually going to enjoy the, nightlife here for a period of time. And, you know, we were at re-Invent. >> Yeah. >> And what a difference. This is nice and relaxed. You have time. You're not getting bumped in the hallway. >> Right. >> A lot of time for learning. So it's been great show. >> It's been great. And one of the things that we've been talking about is the supply chain. Securing the modern software supply chain is really complicated. We've got an Alumni back with us, to talk about what Palo Alto is doing in that respect. Ankur Shah joins us. The SVP and GM of Cloud Security at Palo Alto Networks. Welcome back. >> Yeah, happy to be back. Good to see you again. Dave and Lisa. >> It's been two long weeks. >> Ankur: I know. It's been two weeks, yeah >> Dave: It's kind of crazy. I mean, ReInvent really was a blur. And it's like you had everything coming at you. And there was obviously a big chunk of security, but you. It was just so much to absorb. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Yeah, and I couldn't get into any of the sessions versus at Ignite. I mean, you could, you could learn a lot. To your point Dave. And 70,000 people versus 3000 in change. Big difference. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Lisa: Huge difference. >> Yeah. >> Lisa: Huge difference. So we touched on the Cider acquisition. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> Which was announced the intent to acquire last month. Let's dig into a little bit more of that, and then some of the great things that had been announced. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> In the last couple of days. >> Oh, absolutely. So, this is something that we have been marinating for last nine months. Thinking about how best to secure supply chain. And this is software supply chain. The modern application software is fairly complex. You know, back in the days when I was a developer, it was a simple three tier application. Ship the code once a year, et cetera. But now with microservices, new architectures, Kubernetes Public Cloud, we talked about this. It's getting super complicated, and the customers are really worried about securing their entire supply chain. Which is nothing but the software pipeline. And so we started looking at a whole bunch of companies and Cider really stood out. I mean, they had, they were the innovators in this space. Very early days, we've seen supply chain attack. But there hasn't been a really good and strong solution in that space. And Cider just delivered that incredible team. Great technology, super excited about what that integration will look like. in the coming quarters. >> What do we need to know about them? I mean, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't familiar with Cider until I saw you guys made the announcement of the intent to acquire them. What, what should we know about them? Why Cider? What was it that attracted you to them? >> Ankur: Yeah, so, you know, we have a history of technology acquisitions as you know, over the last four years, just in the public cloud. We acquire over half a a dozen companies, small and large. And typically we are always looking for companies who have the next gen technology available. Technology that is more in tune with how application software is going to look like in future. So we're not always going after companies that are making you know, tens of hundreds of millions of dollars in a year and all. We're looking for the right tech. The future. And that's what we found in Cider. Like they have a really strong application security background. And AppSec just broadly speaking, supply chain is part of it. But application security, just broadly speaking, is right for disruption. You've got a lot of vendors, who have been around for like last two decades. Old school stuff, lots and lots of false positives. So we've been bolstering, beefing up our portfolio in the application security space. And Cider really fits right nicely into it. Because it can like I said, secure a lot of technology and tooling, that software developers use as part of their software supply chain. So, great founding team, great technology. It was a perfect fit. >> Talk about integration. We spoke with Nikesh yesterday, with Nir, with a whole bunch of folks. Lee this morning. BJ yesterday as well. And one of the things that seems to stick out at me. With all the shows that we do, is the focus that Palo Alto has on ensuring that it's making the right acquisitions. But that it's the integration, is really seems to be like leading part of the strategy. That seems to be a little bit of a differentiator to me. >> Yeah, it absolutely is. There are two ways to integrate a technology into an existing platform. And Prisma Cloud is a platform as you know. Code-to-cloud, CNAPP platform as we call it. One is just kind of slotted in, put the whole thing in a box. And that's basically making one plus one equal to two. We're looking for high leverage in integrations, whereby once that integration comes along. It makes the rest of the platform even better and superior. It makes that technology look even better. So that's why there's a lot of focus on ensuring that we're delivering the right type of integration, that delivers instant customer value. And that makes the overall platform even superior. So customers don't feel like hey, like there's just one more add-on, on top of the other thing. >> Lisa: Right, not a bolt on. >> So that's why there's a lot of focus on that. Getting the strategy nailed. Because the founding teams generally have a preconceived notion about how the world looks like. Then they understand how Prisma cloud and Palo Alto Networks think about it. And then, we sort of merge the two ideas, and build something that's incredible. So I am, we're spending a lot of time in integration. That honeymoon phase of like, let's high five acquisitions done, that's over. Now it's the grinding work of actually getting this right. And you know, getting hundreds and thousands of customers. >> Well I like how you don't have the private equity mentality. It's not about EBITDA and cashflow. We'll take care of that. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> You know, it's about getting that integration. Getting that flywheel effect, inside the platform. You know, we said one plus one equals, maybe even more than two. Can you explain Prisma Cloud Secrets Security? What is that all about? What do we need to know about that? >> Ankur: Absolutely. So, the developers, you know generally store some stuff in the code repo for their automation work to build application. And that thing, the API keys or as Secrets are stored in code repo. It shouldn't be. Or even if they are, they should be encrypted, or locked down and things of that nature. But, you know, the need for speed trumps everything else. Developers want to go fast. And sometimes they're like, okay well. I guess my application needs this particular, you know API access token or secret. I'm just going to stick it in the code. Now the challenge with that is that, if somebody gets hold of your code repo. Now not only is your code repo, which has all your sensitive data. Your code is the life and blood of a technology company. That's in trouble. But also those secrets and API access keys can be used to log into your cloud accounts. And there you may have sensitive customer data. Everything that you have as a technology company stored in that public cloud accounts. So that's the worry. It's usually the initial access for the kill chain. Because that's where the attacks start. Let me get the secret, let me get the API access key. And let me see what I can do in public cloud. So we are now giving customers the visibility into where the secrets are stored. More importantly, it just right there on developer's face. In the code repo as they're checking in the code. They say why, hey, there's a secret here. Are you sure you want to, you want to keep it like this, no? Okay, well then you can either encrypt it, or just get rid of it. So we're making, we're bringing security where the developers are in their code repo, et cetera. >> So I can see a lot of developers saying, yeah, go ahead, encrypt it. So I don't have to do anything else, you know, extra. It's almost, the analogy is a very small you know, version of this. Its like, use a password manager. You store all your passwords in your contacts on your phone, right? I mean, somebody gets a hold of your contacts, you're screwed. >> Ankur: That's exactly right. >> And so, but I could still see a lot of developers say, check in the box. Say, yeah just encrypt it, leave it there. But you're saying best practice is to not to do that, right? >> Yeah, usually you're not supposed to, you know, store all your secrets, et cetera in code repo to begin with. But if you do, you know, you use a key wall like technology to really encrypt it and store it in a secret manner, yeah. >> Dave: There's an old saying, bad user behavior trump's great security every time. >> Ankur: Every time. >> But this is an example where, we know you're going to have bad behavior. So we're going to protect the bad behavior. >> Yeah, and actually, sorry Lisa, just to that point. The bad user behavior trumps good security. The classic example, this happened three weeks ago. Three, four weeks ago, where Dropbox, one of the file sharing companies there. 120 plus code repos were exposed. And the way their attack started, was a simple social engineering attack. Bad user behavior. There was an email, hey, like your passwords are updated for your, you know, this code plugin. Can you enter the password? And boom, now you have access to the code repo. And now if you have secrets inside of it, now, you know all bets are off. >> Are there hard-coded secrets versus like, I mean, like I think like, like you were saying, Dave. Like usernames and passwords and tokens, versus like soft coded secrets. >> Ankur: It's, I think it, this is more so two forms of it, you know. The most primary one is what we call the API access keys. And this keys are used to access cloud accounts, workloads and things of that nature. But there are actually secret secrets. Could be database login passwords, et cetera. The application is using it to spin up databases. Now, you know, you have access to the data stores. Any other application, there's a login password, all of that stuff. So it's less about the user password, but more the application and databases and things of that nature. >> Dave: So again, and, again, everybody should be using password managers. But when you use a password manager, it's going to give you a long list of passwords, that are either been compromised or are weak. And you just go uh, okay. So can you help? How do you help customers identify what the high risk? You know, API, you know, access are versus those ones that they may not have to worry about. >> Ankur: Yeah, look. You know, secrets aside. Risk prioritization is one of the biggest topics that our customers have across the board, in cloud security. All the security vendors are really, really good at one thing, generating alerts. Everybody does it. They generate an alert. You know, your ring camera, if you've got one. I mean this pop up every day, like every minute rather. Well like can you prioritize it for me? What should I really look at it? So that's a number one thing. What Prisma Cloud does is, you know, contextualize it. What the real risk is? They can tell you like, hey, here's the kill chain. If this thing, you know, goes to public internet. These are the potential exposures that you have. So we provide a prioritized risk of critical alerts that customers have to take care of before they can start taking care of more hygiene type of stuff, right? So that's how we do it. Like we leverage a lot of technology. We apply a lot of context. We tell you like, hey, this code repo is not protected by multifactor authentication. And then there's a secret inside. Are you sure, you know, you don't want to fix it? So that's what we do. But it's a great question. Top of mind for all our customers. And that's how we think about it across the board. Versus generating just alerts all the time. >> Dave: Is the strategy, Because we all know phishing is the sort of most, you know obvious way to. It's the top way in which people get hacked. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> Is your strategy essentially to say. Okay we know that's going to happen, so we're going to try to protect it at the back end. How much of the, maybe it's an industry question. more so than just a Palo Alto specifically, How much emphasis is do you think the industry is taking or should be taking on stopping that, you know that those phishing attacks? Because if that's the number one problem you know, maybe that's where we should be starting. >> Yeah, it's a great question. It's typically the initial vector, for a lot of attacks to your point. But there is one thing that technology and AI cannot solve. Which is the user behavior, to your point. Like we can't get into the heads of the user. I mean, you can train them, you can do everything. You can't prevent somebody from clicking a button. Of course there's technology out there for email security that does that. But your point is, right, it's going to happen. Now what do you do? How do you protect your applications, your crown jewel? You know, whether it's in the cloud or it's in the code repo. So a lot of what we are trying to do in code security, or cloud security, or in general at Palo Alto Networks. is to protect those crown jewel. Because we can't prevent somebody from doing something. User behavior is hard to change. >> Dave: So it's almost like, okay, you left your front door open. Somebody's going to walk in, but oh, they walk into a vault. And they don't know where to go. And there's nowhere they can- >> Ankur: Yeah. >> You know, nothing they can take. They can't get to the silverware or the jewelry. >> I think that's it, yeah. >> What are some of the things, like as we look at, we're wrapping up calendar year '22 heading into '23. That customers can look to Palo Alto Networks to help them achieve? One of the things that we talked about with Nikesh and Niri yesterday, is consolidation. Like, and you guys just did a recent, survey. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> About the state of Cyber, and organizations on average have 366 apps in their environment. 31 security tools, 30 to 50 security tools. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> Consolidation is really key there. What are some of the things that you are excited about to deliver to customers where consolidation is concerned? >> Ankur: Yeah. >> Where software supply chain security is concerned in the next year? >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, there are over 3000 security vendors. And this can be, I mean you talked about average customer having 300. I was talking to a CSO, this was last year for one of the largest financial institution I go, "How many security tools do you have?" He got 120. I said, why? He goes, we have a no vendor left behind policy. >> Wow. >> It's crazy. >> Dave: What? >> Obviously he was joking, but it's crazy, right? Like that's how the CSO's are. >> Dave: I mean, he was kidding. >> Yeah. >> Dave: But recognized that. Wow. >> Yeah, and, this is the state the security industry is in. And our mission has been, and Lee and Nikesh and Niri talked about it. Is just platforms, will platforms take moonshots, things long term. And especially the, macro headwinds that we're seeing. We're hearing more and more from the customers that, look we're not going to buy point product. Then we got to buy another product that stitches it all together. We need platforms, whether it's for zero trust, Prisma SaaS, whether it's cloud. Prisma cloud or for your sock transformation. You know XIM and Cortex line of products. So I think you're going to see more and more of that in 2023. I'm confident in that. >> We heard from Lee today, the world record's 400. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> He's going for it. He's got a ways to go. 120 He's got to... >> Maybe he wasn't, that guy wasn't kidding about his no vendor left behind policy. (laughing) Do you have Ankur, a favorite customer story that really articulates the value of what Palo Alto delivers and continues to. You know, 'cause one of the things that Nikesh said in his keynote was that you know, security's a data problem. Well every company these days, in every industry has to be a data company. But really what they need to be able to be is a secured data company. >> Ankur: Yeah. >> How are you guys enabling that? >> Oh, absolutely. Look, many customer examples come to mind, but speaking of data. You know, one of, some of our largest customers who are protecting their PCI workers where they have sensitive data. They're using for example, Prisma Cloud, to ensure that malicious attacks don't happen. And those workloads are used for credit card processing. They're processing tens of thousands of credit card transactions a second. And make sure that nobody gets hold of that. And that's why they have to make sure that nobody is. No attacker is trying to get hold of the sensitive data, to your point, So we have customers across financial services, media and entertainment technology company. Where we are helping them go as fast as possible in public cloud. Go through digital transformation, by securing their applications. >> Dave: What's the T-shirt say? I see code. >> Oh yeah. >> Dave: Secure from Code to Cloud. >> Lisa: Shift Happens. >> Shift Happens, Secrets from Code to Cloud. >> I love that. I was looking at that, going back to that, what's next in cyber survey? >> Ankur: Yeah. >> It said 74% of respondents, and I believe there was 1300 CIO's, CXO's that were surveyed globally. Where they said security is slowing down DevOps. Can customers look to Palo Alto Networks to help them? >> Ankur: Be enablers? >> Yes. >> Yeah, hundred percent. Look, the conversation over the last few years have changed now. Security used to say like, oh, I don't know about these people who are building applications. The DevOps is like security slowing down. I think there's an opportunity for companies like Palo Alto Networks, to build the bridge between the two. And the way we do it is make the securities easy, simple and not super intrusive. Where developers have to do a natural thing. And one part of it, and I talked about it earlier, is bring security where the developers are. In their code repo, in their IDE. Make it super simple. Don't make them do unnatural things. And it just, this is no different from changing the behavior of our kids. Right? Like you make them do unnatural things, they're not going to do it. But if it is part of their regular, you know, day-to-day operating procedures. I think they're going to be more open to change. Yeah. So I think it's possible. And Palo Alto has a huge responsibility to bridge the divide between the apps team, or the DevOps and the security organization. >> Lisa: Lots of great stuff to come. We thank you so much for coming back, two weeks. Only being on two weeks ago. We appreciate your insights, learning more information. It's great to see you at Palo Alto Ignite. And we'll have to have you back on. 'Cause we know that there's so much more to follow with respect to what you're doing. And shifting left, shift happens. >> Awesome. Lisa, Dave, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. >> Lisa: Thank you so much. For Ankur Shah and Dave Vellante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE. The leader in live and emerging tech coverage.

(intro upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome to our continued coverage of AWS re:Invent here on theCUBE. My name is Savannah Peterson and I am very excited about the conversation coming up. Not only are we joined by two brilliant minds in the cloud, one of them happens to be a CUBE alumni. Please welcome Mike from AMD and Ali from Dropbox. Ali, welcome back to the show, how you been? >> Thanks Savannah. I'm doing great and really excited to be back on theCUBE. It was great discussion last time and really excited for both re:Invent and also to see how this video turns out. >> Hey, that makes two of us and probably three of us. How are you doing today, Mike? >> Doing great. It's really nice to be getting back to in-person events again and to be out solving problems with customers and partners like Dropbox. >> I know, isn't it? We've all missed each other. Was a lonely couple of years. Mike, I'm going to open it up with you. I'm sure a lot of people are curious. What's new at AMD? >> Well, there's a lot that's new at AMD, so I'll share a subset of what's new and what we've been working on. We've expanded our global coverage in Amazon EC2 with new regions and instance types. So users can deploy any application pretty much anywhere AWS has a presence. Our partner ecosystems for solutions and services has expanded quite a bit. We're currently focused on enabling partners and solutions that focus on cloud cost optimization, modernizing infrastructure, and pushing performance to the limit, especially for HPC. But the biggest buzz, of course, is around AMD's new fourth generation of our EPYC CPU Genoa. It's the world's fastest data center CPU with transformative energy efficiency and that's a really interesting combination, highest performance and most efficient. So on launch day, AWS announced their plans to roll out AMD EPYC Genoa processor-based EC2 instances. So we're pretty excited about that and that's what we'll be working on in the near term. >> Wow, that's a big deal and certainly not a casual announcement. Obviously, power and efficiency hot topics here at re:Invent but also looking at the greater impact on the planet is a big conversation we've been having here as well. So this is exciting and timely and congratulations to you and the team on all that seems to be going on. Ali, what's going on at Dropbox? >> Yeah, thanks Savannah. The Q3 2022 was actually a very strong quarter for Dropbox during a very difficult macroeconomic backdrop. Our focus has continued to be on innovation and this is around both new products and also driving multi-product adoption which is paying a lot of dividends for us, so essentially, bringing products like Dropbox Sign, DocSend, Capture, and other exciting products to our customers. On the infra side, it's all about how do we scale our infrastructure to meet the business needs, right? How do we keep up with the accelerated growth during the pandemic and also leveraging both AMD and AWS for investments in our public cloud? >> Let's talk about the cloud a bit. You are both cloud experts and I'm glad that you brought that up. We'll keep it there with Ali. When, why, and how should users leverage public cloud? >> Yeah, so Dropbox is hybrid cloud which means we are running applications both in private and public cloud and within a unique position to leverage the best of both worlds. And Savannah, this is a decision we continue to reevaluate on a regular basis. And there are really three key factors that come into play here. First is scale and scale, are we operating at a scale where customization is cost-efficient for us? Next is uniqueness. Is our workload unique compared to what the public cloud supports? And lastly, innovation. Do we have the expertise to innovate faster than public cloud or not? So based on these three key factors, we try and balance all of them and then come up with the best option for us at Dropbox. And kind of elaborating over here, things like international storage, we're leveraging public cloud, things like AI and ML, we're leveraging public cloud, but when we talk about Magic Pocket, which is our multi-exabyte storage system, that has the scale which is why we are doing that on our own private cloud. >> Wow, I think you just gave everybody a fantastic framework for thinking about their decision matrix there if nothing else. Mike, is there anything that you'd like to add to that? Anything that AMD considers when contemplating public cloud versus private? >> Yeah, so there's really three main drivers that I see when users consider when, why, and how should they leverage public cloud. Three main drivers: establishing a global footprint, accelerating product release cycles, and efficiently rightsizing infrastructure. So customers looking to establish a global footprint often turn to public cloud deployments to quickly reach their clients in workforces around the world, most importantly with minimal capital expense. I understand Dropbox uses public cloud to establish their global presence scaling out from their core data centers in North America. And then a lot of industries have tremendous pressure to accelerate product release cycles. With public cloud, organizations can immediately deploy new applications without a long site and hardware acquisition cycle and then the associated ongoing maintenance and operational overhead. And the third thing is customers that need to rightsize and dynamically scale their infrastructure and application deployments are drawn to public cloud, for example, customers that have cyclical compute or application load peaks can efficiently deploy in the cloud without overdeploying their on-prem infrastructure for most of the year which is off-peak during those off-peak times. That infrastructure idle time is a waste of resources and OPEX. So scalable rightsizing draws a lot of users to cloud deployment. >> Yeah, wow. I think there's a lot of factors to consider but also it seems like a pretty streamlined process for navigating that or at least you two both made it sound that way. Another hot topic in the space right now is security. Mike, let's start with you a little bit. What are the most important security issues for AMD right now that you can talk about? >> Yeah, sure. So, well, first of all, AWS provides a wide variety of really good security services to protect customers that are working in the cloud. Like from a processor technology perspective, there's three main security aspects to consider, two of which are common practice today and one of which AMD brings significant differentiation and value. The first two are protecting data at rest and data in transit. And these two are part of the prevalent security models of today where AMD provides distinct value and differentiation is in protecting data in use. So EPYC Milan and Genoa processors support a function called SEV-SNP and this enables users to reside and their applications to reside within their own cryptographic context and environment with data integrity protection to accomplish what's called comprehensive confidential computing. Ethics confidential computing solution is hardware-based. So it's easy to leverage, there's no code rewrite required unlike comparable solutions that are software-based that require recoding to a proprietary SDK and come with a significant performance trade-off. So with EPYC processors, you can protect your data at rest, in transit, and most importantly, in use. >> Everybody needs to protect their data everywhere it is. So I love that. That's fantastic to hear and I'm sure gives your customers a lot of confidence. What about over at Dropbox? What security issues are you facing, Ali? >> Yeah, so the first company value at Dropbox is actually being worthy of trust, and what this really means from a security perspective is how do we keep all of our users content safe? And this means keeping everything down to all of the infrastructure hardware secure. So partnering with AMD, which is one of our strongest partners out there, the new security features that AMD have and the hardware are critical for us and we are able to take advantage of some of these best security practices within our compute infrastructure by leveraging AMD's secure ship architecture. >> How important, you just touched on it a little bit, and I want to ask, how important are partnerships like the one you have with each other as you innovate at scale? Ali, you're nodding, I'm going to go to you first. >> Yeah, so like I mentioned, the partnership with with AMD is one of the strongest that we have and it just goes beyond like a regular partnership where it's just buy and sell. We talk about technology together, we talk about innovation together, we talk about partnership together, and for us, as I look look at our hybrid cloud strategy, we would not be able to get the benefits in terms of efficiency, scale, or liability performance without having a strong partner like AMD. >> That's awesome. Mike, anything you want to add there? >> I'd reiterate some of what Ali had to say. One of my favorite parts about my job is getting together with partners and customers to figure out how to optimize their applications and deployments around the world to get the most efficient use of the cloud infrastructure for servers that are based on AMD technology. In many cases, we can find 10% or better performance or cost optimization by working closely with partners like Dropbox. And then in addition, if we keep in lock step together to look at what's coming on the roadmap, by the time the latest and greatest technology is finally deployed, our customers and our partners are ready to take advantage of it. So that's the fun part of the job and I really appreciate the Dropbox's cooperation, optimizing their infrastructure, and using AMD products >> Well, what a synergistic relationship of mutual admiration and support. We love to hear it here in the tech world. Mike, last question for you. What's next for AMD? >> Well, heading into 2023, considering the current challenge macroeconomic environment and geopolitical instability, doing more with less will be top of mind for many CFOs and CEOs in 2023. And AMD can help accomplish that. AMD's EPYC processors, leadership performance, and lower EC2 retail costs can help users reduce costs without impacting performance, or the flip side of that, they can scale capacity without increasing costs. And because of EPYC's higher core counts, really high core density, applications can be deployed with fewer servers or smaller instances that has both economic and environmental benefits that reduce usage costs as well as environmental impacts. And that allows customers to optimize their application and infrastructure spend. And then the second thing that I've seen over the last couple of years and I see this trajectory continuing is increased geographic distribution of our colleagues and workforces is here to stay, people work from everywhere. In modern cross platform, collaboration platforms, that bring teams, tools, and content together have a really important role to play to enable that new, more flexible style of working. And those tools need to be really agile and easy to use. I think Dropbox is really well positioned to enable this new style of working. AMD's really happy to work closely with Dropbox to enable these modern work styles, both on premises, hybrid, and fully in the public cloud. >> Well, it sounds like a very exciting and optimistically, bright future for you all at AMD. We love to hear that here at theCUBE. Ali, what about you? What is 2023 going to hold for Dropbox? >> Yeah, so I think we're going to continue on this journey of transformation where our focus is on new products and also multi-product adoption. And from a cloud perspective, how do we continue to evolve our hybrid cloud so that we remain a competitive advantage for our business and also for our customers? I think right now, Savannah, we're in a very unique position to utilize some of the best AMD technology that's out there and that's both on premise and in the cloud. Some of the AMD Epic processors delivered the performance that we need for our hybrid cloud and we want to continue to leverage these also in public cloud which is the EC2 instances that are powered by AMD in the long run. So overall, Dropbox is looking forward to continue to evaluate some of the AMD's Genoa CPUs that are coming out but also want to continue to grow our EC2 footprint powered by AMD in the long run. >> Fantastic. Well, it sounds like this second showing here on theCUBE is just the tee up for your third and we'll definitely have to have Mike back on for the second time around to hear how things are going. Thank you both so much for taking the time today to join me here. Mike and Ali, it was fantastic getting to chat to you and thank you to our audience for tuning into theCUBE's special coverage of AWS re:Invent. My name's Savannah Peterson and I hope we can learn together soon. (outro upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Fal.Con 22. I'm Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. This is day one of our coverage. We had the big keynotes this morning. Derek Jeter was one of the keynotes. We have a big Yankee fan here: George Kurtz is the co-founder and CEO of CrowdStrike. George, thanks for coming on The Cube. >> It's great to be here. >> Boston fan, you know, I tweeted out Derek Jeter. He broke my heart many times, but I can't hate on Jeter. You got to have respect for the guy. >> Well, I still remember I was in Japan when Boston was down you know, by three games and came back to win. So I've got my own heartbreak as well. >> It did heal some wounds, but it almost changed the rivalry, you know? I mean, >> Yeah. >> Once, it's kind of neutralized it, you know? It's just not as interesting. I mean, I'm a season ticket holder. I go to all the games and Yankee games are great. A lot of it used to be, you would never walk into Fenway park with, you know pin stripes, when today there's as many Yankee fans as there are... >> I know. >> Boston fans. Anyway, at Fenway, I mean. >> Yeah. >> Why did you start CrowdStrike? >> Biggest thing for me was to really change the game in how people were looking at security. And at my previous company, I think a lot of people were buying security and not getting the outcome that they wanted. Not- I got acquired by a company, not my first company. So, to be clear, and before I started CrowdStrike, I was in the antivirus world, and they were spending a lot of money with antivirus vendors but not getting the outcome I thought they should achieve, which is to stop the breach, not just stop malware. And for me, security should be outcome based not sort of product based. And the biggest thing for us was how could we create the sales force of security that was focused on getting the right outcome: stopping the breach. >> And the premise, I've seen it, the unstoppable breach is a myth. No CSOs don't live by that mantra, but you do. How are you doing on that journey? >> Well I think, look, there's no 100% of anything in security, but what we've done is really created a platform that's focused on identifying and stopping breaches as well as now, extending that out into helping IT identify assets and their hygiene and basically providing more visibility into IT assets. So, we talked about the convergence of that. Maybe we'll get into it, but. >> Dave Vellante: Sure. >> We're doing pretty well. And from our standpoint, we've got a lot of customers, almost 20,000, that rely on us day to day to help stop the breach. >> Well, and when you dig into the CrowdStrike architecture, what's so fascinating is, you know, Dave, we've talked about this: agent bad. Well, not necessarily, if you can have a lightweight agent that can scale and support a number of modules, then you can consolidate all these point tools out there. You talked about in your keynote, your pillars, workloads, which really end points >> Right. >> ID, which we're going to talk about. Identity data and network security. You're not a network security specialist, >> Right. >> But the other three, >> Yes. >> You're knocking down. >> Yeah. >> You guys went deep into that today. Talk about that. >> We did, most folks are going to know us for endpoint and Cloud workload protection and visibility. We did an acquisition almost two years to the day on preempt. And that was our identity play, identity threat protection and detection. And that really turned out to be a smart move, because it's the hottest topic right now. If you look at all the breaches over the last couple years, it's all identity based. Big, big talking points in our keynotes today. >> Dave Vellante: Right. >> And then the third area is on data, and data is really the you know, the new currency that people trade in. So how do you identify and protect endpoints and workloads? How do you tie that together with identity, as well as understanding how you connect the dots and the data and where data flows? And that's really been our focus and we continue to deliver on that for customers. >> And you've had a real dogma, I'll call it, about Cloud Native. I've had this conversation with Frank Slootman, "No we're not going to do a halfway house." You, I think, said it really well today. I think it was you who said it. If you've got On-Prem and Cloud, you got two code bases, >> George Kurtz: Right. >> That you got to maintain. >> That's it, yeah. >> And that means you're taking away resources from one or the other. >> That's exactly right. And what a lot of our competitors have done is they started On-Prem as an AV vendor, and then they took what they had and they basically put it in a Cloud instance called a Cloud, which doesn't really scale. And then, you know, where they need to, they basically still keep their On-Prem, and that just diffuses your engineering team. And most of the On-Prem stuff doesn't even have the features of what they're trying to offer from the Cloud. So either you're Cloud Native or you're not. You can't be halfway. >> But it doesn't mean that you can't include and ingest On-Prem data- >> Well, absolutely. >> into your platform, and that's what I think most people just some reason don't seem to understand. >> Well our agents run wherever. They certainly run On-Prem. >> Dave Vellante: Right. Right. >> And they run in the Cloud, they run wherever. But the crowd in the CrowdStrike is the fact that we can crowdsource this threat information at scale into our threat graph, which gives us unique insight, 7 trillion events per week. And you can't do that if you're not Cloud Native. And that crowd gives the, we call, community immunity. We see all kinds of attacks across 176 different countries. That benefit accrues to all of our customers. >> But how do you envision and maintain and preserve a lightweight agent that can support so many modules? As you do more acquisitions and you knock down new areas and bring in new functionality, go after things like operations technology, how is it that you're able to keep that agent lightweight? >> Well, we started as a platform company, meaning that the whole idea was we're going to build a lightweight agent. First iteration had no security capabilities. It was collect data, get it into a common data architecture or threat graph, in one spot. And then once we had the data then we applied AI to it and we created different workflows. So, the first incarnation was get data into the Cloud at scale. And that still holds true today. So if you think about why we can actually have all these different modules without an impact on the performance, it's we collect data one time. It's a threat data, you know? We're not collecting user data, but threat data collection mechanism. Once we have all that data, then we can slice and dice and create other modules. So the new modules never have to even touch the agent 'cause we've already collected the data. >> I'm going to just keep going, Dave, unless you shove your way in. >> No, no, go ahead. No, no, no. I'm waiting to pounce. >> But okay, so, I think, George, but George, I need to ask you about a comment that you made about we're not just shoving it into a data lake. But you are collecting all the data. Can you explain that nuance? >> Yeah. So there's a difference between a collect and forward agent. It means they just collect a bunch of data. They'll probably store it in a lot of space on the endpoint. It's slow and cumbersome, and then they'll forward it up into another data lake. So you have no context going into no context. Our agent is a smart agent, which actually allows us to always track the context of all these processes in what's happening on the endpoint. And it's a mini graph, meaning we keep track of the relationships. And as we ship that contextual information to the Cloud, we never lose that context. And then it goes into the bigger graph database, always with the same level of context. So, we keep the context of each individual workload or endpoint, and then across the Cloud, we have the context of all of those put together. It's massive. And that allows us to create different insights rather than a data lake, which is, you know, you're looking for, you're creating a bigger needle stack looking for needles. >> And I'm envisioning almost an index that is super, super fast. I mean, you're talking about sub, well second kind of near real time responses, correct? >> Absolutely. So a lot of what we do in terms of protection is already pushed down to the endpoint , 'cause it has intelligence and the AI model. And then again, the Cloud is always looking for different anomalies, not only on each individual endpoint or workload, but across the entire spectrum of our customer base. And that's all real time. It continually self-learns from all the data we collect. >> So when, yeah, when you've made these architectural decisions over time, there was a time when saying that you needed to run an agent could be a deal killer somewhere for people who argued against that. >> George Kurtz: Right. >> You've made the right decision there, clearly. Having everything be crowdsourced into Cloud makes perfect sense. Has that, though, posed a challenge from a sovereignty perspective? If you were deploying stuff On-Prem all over the place, you don't need to worry about that. Everything is here >> George Kurtz: Yeah. >> in a given country. How do you address the challenges of sovereignty when these agents are sending data into some sort of centralized Cloud space that crosses boundaries? >> Well, yeah, I guess what we would, let me go back to the beginning. So I started company in 2011 and I had to convince people that delivering endpoint security from the Cloud was going to be a good thing. >> Dave Vellante: Right. (chuckles) >> You know, you go into a Swiss bank and a bunch of other places and they're like, you're crazy. Right? >> Dave Nicholson: Right. >> They all became customers afterwards, right? And you have to just look at what they're doing. And the question I would have in the early days is, well, let me ask you are you using Dropbox, Box? Are you using a Microsoft? You know, what are you using? Well, they're all sending data to the Cloud. So good news! You already have a model, you've already approved that, right? So let's talk about our benefit. And you know, you can either have an adversary steal your data or you can send threat data to our Cloud, which by the way is in a lot of sovereign Clouds that are out there. And when you actually break it down to what we're sending to the Cloud, it's threat data, right? It isn't user files and documents and stuff. It's threat data. So, we work through all of that. And the Cloud is bigger than CrowdStrike. So you look at Sales Force, Service Now, Workday, et cetera. That's being used all over the place, Box, Dropbox. We just tagged onto it. Like why shouldn't security be the platform of record, and why shouldn't CrowdStrike be the platform of record and be the pillar of Cloud security? >> Explain your observability strategy, 'cause you acquired Humio for, I mean, I think it was $400 million, which is a song. >> Yeah. >> And then Reposify is the latest acquisition. I see that as an extension, 'cause it gives you visibility. Is that part of your security, of your observability play? Explain where you do play and don't play. >> Sure. Well observability is a big, you know, fluffy word. Where we play is in probably the first two areas of observability, right? There's five, kind of, pillars. We're focused on event collection. Let's get events from the endpoints. Let's get events from really anywhere in the network. And we can do that with Humio is now log scale. And then the second piece is with our agents, let's get an understanding of their, the asset itself. What is the asset? What state is it in? Does it have vulnerabilities? Does it have, you know, is it running out of disc space? Is it have, does it have a performance issue? Those are really the first two, kind of, areas of observability. We're not in application performance, we're in let's collect data from the endpoint and other sources, and let's understand if the thing is working, right? And that's a huge value for customers. And we can do that because we already have a privileged spot on the endpoint with our agent. >> Got it. Question on the TAM. Like I look at your TAMs, your charts, I love it. You know, generally do. Were you taking known data from you know, firms like IDC >> George Kurtz: Yeah. >> and saying, okay we're going to play there, now we're made this acquisition. We're new modules, now we're playing there. Awesome. I think you got a big TAM. And I guess that's, that's the point. There's no lack of market for you. >> George Kurtz: Right. >> But I do feel like there's this unknown unquantifiable piece of your TAM. IDC can't see it, 'cause they're kind of looking back >> George Kurtz: Right. >> seein' what the market do last year and we'll forecast it out. It's almost, you got to be a futurist to see it. How do you think about your total available market and the opportunity that's out there? >> Well, it's well in excess of 120 billion and we've actually updated that recently. So it's even beyond that. But if you look at all the modules each module has a discreet TAM and again, for what, you know, what we're focused on is how do you give an outcome to a customer? So a lot of the modules map back into specific TAM and product categories. When you add 'em all up and when you look at, you know, some of the new things that we're coming out with, again, it's well in excess of 120 billion. So that's why we like to say like, you know, we're not an endpoint company. We're really, truly a security platform company that was born in the Cloud. And I think if you see the growth rates, and one of the things that we've talked about, and I think you might have pointed out in prior podcasts, is we're the second fastest company to 2 billion dollars in annual recurring revenue, only behind Zoom. And you know I would argue- great company, by the way, a customer- but that was a black Swan event in a pandemic, right? >> Dave Vellante: I'll say! >> Yeah. >> So we are rarefied air when you think about the capabilities that we have and the performance and the TAM that's available to us. >> The other thing I said in my breaking analysis was 'cause you guys aspire to be a generational company. And I think you got a really good shot at being one, but to be a generational company, you have to have an ecosystem. So I'd love you to talk about the ecosystem, but where you want to see it in five years. >> Well, it really is a good point and we are a partner first company. Ecosystem is really important. Cameras probably can't see all the vendors that are here that are our partners, right? It's a big part of this show that we're at. You see a lot of, well, you see some vendors behind us. >> Yep. >> We have to realize in 2022, and I think this is something that we did well and it's my philosophy, is we are not the only game in town. We like to be, and we are, for many companies the security platform on record, but we don't do everything. We talked about network in other areas. We can't do everything. You can't be good and try to do everything. So, for customers today, what they're looking at is best of platform. And in the early days of security, I've been in it over 30 years, it used to be best of breed products, then it was best of suite, now it's best of platform. So what do I mean by that? It means that customers don't want to engineer their own solution. They, like Lego blocks, they want to pull the platforms, and they want to stitch 'em together via API. And they want to say, okay, CrowdStrike works with Okta, works with Zscaler, works with Proofpoint, et cetera. And that's what customers want. So, ecosystem is incredibly important for us. >> Explain that. You mentioned Okta, I had another question for you. I was at Reinforce, and I saw this better together presentation, CrowdStrike and Okta talking about identity. You've got an identity module. Explain to people how you're not competing with Okta. You guys complement each other, there. >> Well, an identity kind of broker, if you will, is basically what Okta does in others, right? So you log in single sign on and you get access. They broker access to all these other applications. >> Dave Vellante: Right. >> That's not what we do. What we do is we look at those endpoints and workloads and domain controllers and directory services and we figure out, are there vulnerabilities and are there threats associated with them? And we call that out. The second piece, which is critical, is we prevent lateral movement. So if credentials are stolen we can prevent those credentials from being laundered or used and moved laterally, which is a key part of how breaches happen. We then create a trust score on those endpoints and workloads. And we basically say, okay, do we think the trust on the endpoint and workload is high or low? Do we think the identity, you know, is it George on the endpoint, or not? We give that a score. And we pass that along to Okta or Ping or whoever, and they then use that as part of their calculus in how they broker access to other resources. So it really is better together. >> So your execution has been stellar. This is my competition question. You obviously have competition out there. I think architecturally, you've got some advantages. You have a great relationship with AWS. I don't know what's going on with Google, but Kevin's up on stage. >> George Kurtz: Yeah. >> They're now part of Google. >> George Kurtz: We have a great relationship with them. >> Microsoft obviously, a competitor. You obviously do some things in, >> Right. >> in Azure. Are you building the security Cloud? >> We are. We think we are, because when you look at the amount of data that we actually ingest, when you look at companies using us for critical decisions and critical protection, not only on their On-Prem, but also in their Cloud environment, and the knowledge we have, we think it is a security Cloud. You know, you had, you had Salesforce and Workday and ServiceNow and each of them had their respective Clouds. When I started the company, there was no security Cloud. You know, it wasn't any of the companies that you know. It wasn't the firewall companies, wasn't the AV companies. And I think we really defined ourselves as the security Cloud. And the level of knowledge and insights we have in our Cloud, I think, are world class. >> But you know, it's a difference of being those- 'cause you mentioned those other, you know, seminal Clouds. They, like Salesforce, Workday, they're building their own Clouds. Maybe not so much Workday, but certainly Salesforce and ServiceNow built their own >> Yeah. >> Clouds, their own data centers. You're building on top of hyperscalers, correct? >> Well, >> Well you have your own data centers, too. >> We have our own data centers, yeah. So when we first started, we started in AWS as many do, and we have a great relationship there. We continue to build out. We are a huge customer and we also have, you know, with data sovereignty and those sort of things, we've got a lot of our sort of data that sits in our private Cloud. So it's a hybrid approach and we think it's the best of both worlds. >> Okay. And you mean you can manage those costs and it's, how do you make the decision? Is it just sovereignty or is it cost as well? >> Well, there's an operational element. There's cost. There's everything. There's a lot that goes into it. >> Right. >> And at the end of the day we want to make sure that we're using the right technology in the right Clouds to solve the right problem. >> Well, George, congratulations on being back in person. That's got to feel good. >> It feels really good. >> Got a really good audience here. I don't know what the numbers are but there's many thousands here, >> Thousands, yeah. >> at the ARIA. Really appreciate your time. And thanks for having The Cube here. You guys built a great set for us. >> Well, we appreciate all you do. I enjoy your programs. And I think hopefully we've given the audience a good idea of what CrowdStrike's all about, the impact we have and certainly the growth trajectory that we're on. So thank you. >> Fantastic. All right, George Kurtz, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson. We're going to wrap up day one. We'll be back tomorrow, first thing in the morning, live from the ARIA. We'll see you then. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We've got Sam Kassoumeh, co-founder and chief operating office at SecurityScorecard here remotely coming in. Thanks for coming on Sam. Security, Sam. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> Love the security conversations. I love what you guys are doing. I think this idea of managed services, SaaS. Developers love it. Operation teams love getting into tools easily and having values what you guys got with SecurityScorecard. So let's get into what we were talking before we came on. You guys have a unique solution around ratings, but also it's not your grandfather's pen test want to be security app. Take us through what you guys are doing at SecurityScorecard. >> Yeah. So just like you said, it's not a point in time assessment and it's similar to a traditional credit rating, but also a little bit different. You can really think about it in three steps. In step one, what we're doing is we're doing threat intelligence data collection. We invest really heavily into R&D function. We never stop investing in R&D. We collect all of our own data across the entire IPV force space. All of the different layers. Some of the data we collect is pretty straightforward. We might crawl a website like the example I was giving. We might crawl a website and see that the website says copyright 2005, but we know it's 2022. Now, while that signal isn't enough to go hack and break into the company, it's definitely a signal that someone might not be keeping things up to date. And if a hacker saw that it might encourage them to dig deeper. To more complex signals where we're running one of the largest DNS single infrastructures in the world. We're monitoring command and control malware and its behaviors. We're essentially collecting signals and vulnerabilities from the entire IPV force space, the entire network layer, the entire web app player, leaked credentials. Everything that we think about when we talk about the security onion, we collect data at each one of those layers of the onion. That's step one. And we can do all sorts of interesting insights and information and reports just out of that thread intel. Now, step two is really interesting. What we do is we go identify the attack surface area or what we call the digital footprint of any company in the world. So as a customer, you can simply type in the name of a company and we identify all of the domains, sub domains, subsidiaries, organizations that are identified on the internet that belong to that organization. So every digital asset of every company we go out and we identify that and we update that every 24 hours. And step three is the rating. The rating is probabilistic and it's deterministic. The rating is a benchmark. We're looking at companies compared to their peers of similar size within the same industry and we're looking at how they're performing. And it's probabilistic in the sense that companies that have an F are about seven to eight times more likely to experience a breach. We're an A through F scale, universally understood. Ds and Fs, more likely to experience a breach. A's we see less breaches now. Like I was mentioning before, it doesn't mean that an F is always going to get hacked or an A can never get hacked. If a nation state targets an A, they're going to eventually get in with enough persistence and budget. If the pizza shop on the corner has an F, they may never get hacked because no one cares, but natural correlation, more doors open to the house equals higher likelihood someone unauthorized is going to walk in. So it's really those three steps. The collection, we map it to the surface area of the company and then we produce a rating. Today we're rating about 12 million companies every single day. >> And how many people do you have as customers? >> We have 50,000 organizations using us, both free and paid. We have a freemium tier where just like Yelp or a LinkedIn business profile. Any company in the world has a right to go claim the score. We never extort companies to fix the score. We never charge a company to see the score or fix it. Any company in a world without paying us a cent can go in. They can understand what we're seeing about them, what a hacker could see about their environment. And then we empower them with the tools to fix it and they can fix it and the score will go up. Now companies pay us because they want enterprise capabilities. They want additional modules, insights, which we can talk about. But in total, there's about 50,000 companies that at any given point in time, they're monitoring about a million and a half organizations of the 12 million that we're rating. It sounds like Google. >> If you want to look at it. >> Sounds like Google Search you got going on there. You got a lot of search and then you create relevance, a score, like a ranking. >> That's precisely it. And that's exactly why Google ventures invested in us in our Series B round. And they're on our board. They looked and they said, wow, you guys are building like a Google Search engine over some really impressive threat intelligence. And then you're distilling it into a score which anybody in the world can easily understand. >> Yeah. You obviously have page rank, which changed the organic search business in the late 90s, early 2000s and the rest is history. AdWords. >> Yeah. >> So you got a lot of customer growth there potentially with the opt-in customer view, but you're looking at this from the outside in. You're looking at companies and saying, what's your security posture? Getting a feel for what they got going on and giving them scores. It sounds like it's not like a hacker proof. It's just more of a indicator for management and the team. >> It's an indicator. It's an indicator. Because today, when we go look at our vendors, business partners, third parties were flying blind. We have no idea how they're doing, how they're performing. So the status quo for the last 20 years has been perform a risk assessments, send a questionnaire, ask for a pen test and an audit evidence. We're trying to break that cycle. Nobody enjoys it. They're long tail. It's a trust without verification. We don't really like that. So we think we can evolve beyond this point in time assessment and give a continuous view. Now, today, historically, we've been outside in. Not intrusive, and we'll show you what a hacker can see about an environment, but we have some cool things percolating under the hood that give more of a 360 view outside, inside, and also a regulatory compliance view as well. >> Why is the compliance of the whole third party thing that you're engaging with important? Because I mean, obviously having some sort of way to say, who am I dealing with is important. I mean, we hear all kinds of things in the security landscape, oh, zero trust, and then we hear trust, supply chain, software risk, for example. There's a huge trust factor there. I need to trust this tool or this container. And then you got the zero trust, don't trust anything. And then you've got trust and verify. So you have all these different models and postures, and it just seems hard to keep up with. >> Sam: It's so hard. >> Take us through what that means 'cause pen tests, SOC reports. I mean the clouds help with the SOC report, but if you're doing agile, anything DevOps, you basically would need to do a pen test like every minute. >> It's impossible. The market shifted to the cloud. We watched and it still is. And that created a lot of complexity, not to date myself. But when I was starting off as a security practitioner, the data center used to be in the basement and I would have lunch with the database administrator and we talk about how we were protecting the data. Those days are long gone. We outsource a lot of our key business practices. We might use, for example, ADP for a payroll provider or Dropbox to store our data. But we've shifted and we no longer no who that person is that's protecting our data. They're sitting in another company in another area unknown. And I think about 10, 15 years ago, CISOs had the realization, Hey, wait a second. I'm relying on that third party to function and operate and protect my data, but I don't have any insight, visibility or control of their program. And we were recommended to use questionnaires and audit forms, and those are great. It's good hygiene. It's good practice. Get to know the people that are protecting your data, ask them the questions, get the evidence. The challenge is it's point in time, it's limited. Sometimes the information is inaccurate. Not intentionally, I don't think people intentionally want to go lie, but Hey, if there's a $50 million deal we're trying to close and it's dependent on checking this one box, someone might bend a rule a little bit. >> And I said on theCUBE publicly that I think pen test reports are probably being fudged and dates being replicated because it's just too fast. And again, today's world is about velocity on developers, trust on the code. So you got all kinds of trust issues. So I think verification, the blue check mark on Twitter kind of thing going on, you're going to see a lot more of that and I think this is just the beginning. I think what you guys are doing is scratching the surface. I think this outside in is a good first step, but that's not going to solve the internal problem that still coming and have big surface areas. So you got more surface area expanding. I mean, IOT's coming in, the Edge is coming fast. Never mind hybrid on-premise cloud. What's your organizations do to evaluate the risk and the third party? Hands shaking, verification, scorecards. Is it like a free look here or is it more depth to it? Do you double click on it? Take us through how this evolves. >> John it's become so disparate and so complex, Because in addition to the market moving to the cloud, we're now completely decentralized. People are working from home or working hybrid, which adds more endpoints. Then what we've learned over time is that it's not just a third party problem, because guess what? My third parties behind the scenes are also using third parties. So while I might be relying on them to process my customer's payment information, they're relying on 20 vendors behind the scene that I don't even know about. I might have an A, they might have an A. It's really important that we expand beyond that. So coming out of our innovation hub, we've developed a number of key capabilities that allow us to expand the value for the customer. One, you mentioned, outside in is great, but it's limited. We can see what a hacker sees and that's helpful. It gives us pointers where to maybe go ask double click, get comfort, but there's a whole nother world going on behind the firewall inside of an organization. And there might be a lot of good things going on that CISO security teams need to be rewarded for. So we built an inside module and component that allows teams to start plugging in the tools, the capabilities, keys to their cloud environments. And that can show anybody who's looking at the scorecard. It's less like a credit score and more like a social platform where we can go and look at someone's profile and say, Hey, how are things going on the inside? Do they have two-factor off? Are there cloud instances configured correctly? And it's not a point in time. This is a live connection that's being made. This is any point in time, we can validate that. The other component that we created is called an evidence locker. And an evidence locker, it's like a secure vault in my scorecard and it allows me to upload things that you don't really stand for or check for. Collateral, compliance paperwork, SOC 2 reports. Those things that I always begrudgingly email. I don't want to share with people my trade secrets, my security policies, and have it sit on their exchange server. So instead of having to email the same documents out, 300 times a month, I just upload them to my evidence locker. And what's great is now anybody following my scorecard can proactively see all the great things I'm doing. They see the outside view. They see the inside view. They see the compliance view. And now they have the holy grail view of my environment and can have a more intelligent conversation. >> Access to data and access methods are an interesting innovation area around data lineage. Tracing is becoming a big thing. We're seeing that. I was just talking with the Snowflake co-founder the other day here in theCUBE about data access and they're building a proprietary mesh on top of the clouds to figure out, Hey, I don't want to give just some tool access to data because I don't know what's on the other side of those tools. Now they had a robust ecosystem. So I can see this whole vendor risk supply chain challenge around integration as a huge problem space that you guys are attacking. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah. Integration is tricky because we want to be really particular about who we allow access into our environment or where we're punching holes in the firewall and piping data out out of the environment. And that can quickly become unwieldy just with the control that we have. Now, if we give access to a third party, we then don't have any control over who they're sharing our information with. When I talk to CISOs today about this challenge, a lot of folks are scratching their head, a lot of folks treat this as a pet project. Like how do I control the larger span beyond just the third parties? How do I know that their software partners, their contractors that they're working with building their tools are doing a good job? And even if I know, meaning, John, you might send me a list of all of your vendors. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't really have the right to go reach out to my vendors' vendors knocking on their door saying, hi, I'm Sam. I'm working with John and he's your customer. And I need to make sure that you're protecting my data. It's an awkward chain of conversation. So we're building some tools that help the security teams hold the entire ecosystem accountable. We actually have a capability called automatic vendor discovery. We can go detect who are the vendors of a company based on the connections that we see, the inbound and outbound connections. And what often ends up happening John is we're bringing to the attention to our customers, awareness about inbound and outbound connections. They had no idea existed. There were the shadow IT and the ghost vendors that were signed without going through an assessment. We detect those connections and then they can go triage and reduce the risk accordingly. >> I think that risk assessment of vendors is key. I was just reading a story about this, about how a percentage, I forget the number. It was pretty large of applications that aren't even being used that are still on in companies. And that becomes a safe haven for bad actors to hang out and penetrate 'cause they get overlooked 'cause no one's using them, but they're still online. And so there's a whole, I called cleaning up the old dead applications that are still connected. >> That happens all the time. Those applications also have applications that are dead and applications that are alive may also have users that are dead as well. So you have that problem at the application level, at the user level. We also see a permutation of what you describe, which is leftover artifacts due to configuration mistakes. So a company just put up a new data center, a satellite office in Singapore and they hired a team to go install all the hardware. Somebody accidentally left an administrative portal exposed to the public internet and nobody knew the internet works, the lights are on, the office is up and running, but there was something that was supposed to be turned off that was left turned on. So sometimes we bring to company's attention and they say, that's not mine. That doesn't belong to me. And we're like, oh, well, we see some reason why. >> It's his fault. >> Yeah and they're like, oh, that was the contractor set up the thing. They forgot to turn off the administrative portal with the default login credentials. So we shut off those doors. >> Yeah. Sam, this is really something that's not talked about a lot in the industry that we've become so reliant on managed services and other people, CISOs, CIOs, and even all departments that have applications, even marketing departments, they become reliant on agencies and other parties to do stuff for them which inherently just increases the risk here of what they have. So there inherently could be as secure as they could be, but yet exposed completely on the other side. >> That's right. We have so many virtual touch points with our partners, our vendors, our managed service providers, suppliers, other third parties, and all the humans that are involved in that mix. It creates just a massive ripple effect. So everybody in a chain can be doing things right. And if there's one bad link, the whole chain breaks. I know it's like the cliche analogy, but it rings true. >> Supply chain trust again. Trust who you trust. Let's see how those all reconcile. So Sam, I have to ask you, okay, you're a former CISO. You've seen many movies in the industry. Co-founded this company. You're in the front lines. You've got some cool things happening. I can almost imagine the vision is a lot more than just providing a rating and score. I'm sure there's more vision around intelligence, automation. You mentioned vault, wallet capabilities, exchanging keys. We heard at re:Inforce automated reasoning, metadata reasoning. You got all kinds of crypto and quantum. I mean, there's a lot going on that you can tap into. What's your vision where you see SecurityScorecard going? >> When we started the company, the rating was the thing that we sold and it was a language that helped technical and non-technical folks alike level the playing field and talk about risk and use it to drive their strategy. Today, the rating just opens the door to that discussion and there's so much additional value. I think in the next one to two years, we're going to see the rating becomes standardized. It's going to be more frequently asked or even required or leveraged by key decision makers. When we're doing business, it's going to be like, Hey, show me your scorecard. So I'm seeing the rating get baked more and more the lexicon of risk. But beyond the rating, the goal is really to make a world a safer place. Help transform and rise the tide. So all ships can lift. In order to do that, we have to help companies, not only identify the risk, but also rectify the risk. So there's tools we build to really understand the full risk. Like we talked about the inside, the outside, the fourth parties, fifth parties, the real ecosystem. Once we identified where are all the Fs and bad things, will then what? So couple things that we're doing. We've launched a pro serve arm to help companies. Now companies don't have to pay to fix the score. Anybody, like I said, can fix the score completely free of charge, but some companies need help. They ask us and they say, Hey, I'm looking for a trusted advisor. A Sherpa, a guide to get me to a better place or they'll say, Hey, I need some pen testing services. So we've augmented a service arm to help accelerate the remediation efforts. We're also partnered with different industries that use the rating as part of a larger picture. The cyber rating isn't the end all be all. When companies are assessing risk, they may be looking at a financial ratings, ESG ratings, KYC AML, cyber security, and they're trying to form a complete risk profile. So we go and we integrate into those decision points. Insurance companies, all the top insurers, re-insurers, brokers are leveraging SecurityScorecard as an ingredient to help underwrite for cyber liability insurance. It's not the only ingredient, but it helps them underwrite and identify the help and price the risk so they can push out a policy faster. First policy is usually the one that's signed. So time to quote is an important metric. We help to accelerate that. We partner with credit rating agencies like Fitch, who are talking to board members, who are asking, Hey, I need a third party, independent verification of what my CISO is saying. So the CISO is presenting the rating, but so are the proxy advisors and the ratings companies to the board. So we're helping to inform the boards and evolve how they're thinking about cyber risk. We're helping with the insurance space. I think that, like you said, we're only scratching the surface. I can see, today we have about 50,000 companies that are engaging a rating and there's no reason why it's not going to be in the millions in just the next couple years here. >> And you got the capability to bring in more telemetry and see the new things, bring that into the index, bring that into the scorecard and then map that to potential any vulnerabilities. >> Bingo. >> But like you said, the old days, when you were dating yourself, you were in a glass room with a door lock and key and you can see who's two folks in there having lunch, talking database. No one's going to get hurt. Now that's gone, right? So now you don't know who's out there and machines. So you got humans that you don't know and you got machines that are turning on and off services, putting containers out there. Who knows what's in those payloads. So a ton of surface area and complexity to weave through. I mean only is going to get done with automation. >> It's the only way. Part of our vision includes not attempting to make a faster questionnaire, but rid ourselves of the process all altogether and get more into the continuous assessment mindset. Now look, as a former CISO myself, I don't want another tool to log into. We already have 50 tools we log into every day. Folks don't need a 51st and that's not the intent. So what we've done is we've created today, an automation suite, I call it, set it and forget it. Like I'm probably dating myself, but like those old infomercials. And look, and you've got what? 50,000 vendors business partners. Then behind there, there's another a hundred thousand that they're using. How are you going to keep track of all those folks? You're not going to log in every day. You're going to set rules and parameters about the things that you care about and you care depending on the nature of the engagement. If we're exchanging sensitive data on the network layer, you might care about exposed database. If we're doing it on the app layer, you're going to look at application security vulnerabilities. So what our customers do is they go create rules that say, Hey, if any of these companies in my tier one critical vendor watch list, if they have any of these parameters, if the score drops, if they drop below a B, if they have these issues, pick these actions and the actions could be, send them a questionnaire. We can send the questionnaire for you. You don't have to send pen and paper, forget about it. You're going to open your email and drag the Excel spreadsheet. Those days are over. We're done with that. We automate that. You don't want to send a questionnaire, send a report. We have integrations, notify Slack, create a Jira ticket, pipe it to ServiceNow. Whatever system of record, system of intelligence, workflow tools companies are using, we write in and allow them to expedite the whole. We're trying to close the window. We want to close the window of the attack. And in order to do that, we have to bring the attention to the people as quickly as possible. That's not going to happen if someone logs in every day. So we've got the platform and then that automation capability on top of it. >> I love the vision. I love the utility of a scorecard, a verification mark, something that could be presented, credential, an image, social proof. To security and an ongoing way to monitor it, observe it, update it, add value. I think this is only going to be the beginning of what I would see as much more of a new way to think about credentialing companies. >> I think we're going to reach a point, John, where and some of our customers are already doing this. They're publishing their scorecard in the public domain, not with the technical details, but an abstracted view. And thought leaders, what they're doing is they're saying, Hey, before you send me anything, look at my scorecard securityscorecard.com/securityrating, and then the name of their company, and it's there. It's in the public domain. If somebody Googles scorecard for certain companies, it's going to show up in the Google Search results. They can mitigate probably 30, 40% of inbound requests by just pointing to that thing. So we want to give more of those tools, turn security from a reactive to a proactive motion. >> Great stuff, Sam. I love it. I'm going to make sure when you hit our site, our company, we've got camouflage sites so we can make sure you get the right ones. I'm sure we got some copyright dates. >> We can navigate the decoys. We can navigate the decoys sites. >> Sam, thanks for coming on. And looking forward to speaking more in depth on showcase that we have upcoming Amazon Startup Showcase where you guys are going to be presenting. But I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for sharing what you guys are working on. We really appreciate. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Coming in from New York city is the co-founder, chief operating officer of securityscorecard.com. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit live from Caesar's forum in Las Vegas, Lisa Martin, with Dave Valante. Dave, we have had an action packed two days here, talking with loads of folks. There's been about 10,000 attendees here, the momentum, the excitement for snowflake, what they're building, what they're, what they've announced is huge. >>I'll tell you like this is a getaway day and there's still decent amount of buzz going on in the ecosystem here and the exhibit hall. And I was just saying, when you walk around Las Vegas, you'd never know the economy's about the tank with, you know, inflation is on the rise. I mean, Vegas is packed. >>It is packed it a lot of shows going on here. We are excited to welcome Patrick Barch, the senior director of product management at capital one software to the program. Patrick, it's great to have you. >>Thank you. It's great to be here. >>So we all know capital one. I love the commercials. I'm sure you have a, a large say in how fun and creative they are. Talk to us about capital one software. This is a new business software business. It >>Is. And so, you know, from our founding days in 1994, capital one has always recognized the power of data and technology to create differentiated experiences for our customers. But about 10 years ago, we declared that we were gonna reinvent the way that we build and use technology. One of the key steps in that journey was migrating from our owned and operated data centers to the public cloud. But in order to do that, we needed to build a number of products and platforms to help us operate at scale because the market just wasn't quite there yet. And so capital one software, which we announced last week, Woohoo is our first foray into bringing some of those cloud and data management products to market. >>Talk to us about you. Capital one is one of Snowflake's longest running and largest customers. How does snowflake help facilitate that >>A couple different ways? So first snowflake is a, it's a super powerful platform. They've changed the game when it comes to leveraging data. At scale in the cloud, we were an early investor. We were, we were one of their biggest customers. They've been a great partner along the way, helping us adopt the platform. But for us, when we adopted back in 2018 ish, we realized that with all of this power comes a lot of responsibility. And so we needed to make sure that we were putting good governance and good controls around our usage of snowflake from the start. And so, you know, we, we, we needed to build some, some tools to help us optimize our, our usage of snowflake. >>Okay. So you basically said we're going all in the cloud. You guys have made huge investments in, in AWS and obviously snowflake. And then now you're, you're sort of taking what you did internally and exposing it almost like, like Amazon did Amazon retail and then that's how AWS was born. Okay, awesome. What kind of results did you see internally in terms of the primary benefit? If I understand it is cost savings, but also better data management, right? Is that fair? >>So the, the totality of what we've built internally covers both cost savings, data management, data security, adherence to data privacy legislation. The product that we announced here at summit is really focused on cost optimization for snowflake, right? And so with these tools, we've been able to save about 27% on our projected snowflake costs. We've been able to save our teams about 50,000 hours of manual effort by reducing the number of change orders that they have to execute manually through automated infrastructure management. We've reduced our cost per query by about 43%. And so really what these enabled us to do is just get really efficient with how we use the system. You know, one, one of the challenges you might run into with snowflake is, is unexpected costs. And so by leveraging these tools, we've been able to make sure that our costs are predictable and consistent from month to month, which enables us to budget appropriately. >>And, and that's 50,000 hours person hours over what period of time >>Have to get back to you on the exact amounts? I mean, >>Years, months, several years. Weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, but we're talking about tens and tens of millions of dollars, right? If you, I mean, just assume a hundred bucks an hour for, for a person just fully loaded. I mean, I'll just do that math. Okay. And 20% percent on snowflake cost. So here's, here's the question? Well, well, first of all, what's the vision, what's the like gimme a five year vision for, for the software group at capital one, >>We wanna bring capital one's data and cloud management expertise to the masses. Okay. We've spoken to a number of companies that are trying to follow in our footsteps. We've, we've heard again and again, that our challenges are their challenges. Our, the path that we walked is the path that they're trying to walk in. So we are super excited about bringing all of our expertise to the market. >>So start with cost savings, but the vision transcends cost savings, absolutely going into security, privacy, data management, >>Absolutely absolutely workflow. And the, the, you know, the industry's in a super interesting place now where it's very fragmented. There is a galaxy of tools out there. You, you look around here, there's hundreds and hundreds of different solutions, but they're point solutions. They're all going after an individual piece of the management puzzle. And what we found was that we needed to create these integrated experiences that were aligned to our team's jobs to be done, not necessarily in terms of, you know, a capability like cataloging or quality or entitlements, you know, in order to efficiently operate at scale, you need to string those things together in a way that lets your team get their job done. >>So my last question on this flow is, I dunno if you're familiar with you guys, maybe familiar with Sarah Wong and Martin CASAA published a piece that got, you know, pretty wide viewing and discussion. They are out out of Andreesen, a 16 Z that the cost of good sold for SaaS companies who are born in the cloud are gonna become so overwhelming that they're gonna repatriate and start managing themselves. And they use Dropbox as an example. Now Dropbox is storage. So it's very specific niche, you know, and I've talked to many, many companies like snowflake about this, and they're like, eh, that ain't happening anytime soon. How do you feel about that? Because if you look at SAS companies that are born in the cloud, their gross margins are, you know, they don't get to 90%, but they're healthy, you know, 75, you know, sometimes 78% even snowflakes, you know, end of decade forecast Scarelli has it. I think it's 78%. And the reason it's not higher is because of the cloud cost. You gotta pay the cloud bills, my belief and I've argued, this is that's okay. I can negotiate cloud bills. I can work with tools like yours over time to keep those down. And the cloud guys are gonna be competing with each other, but, but what do you make of that Patrick >>Cloud costs? Aren't gonna go down. Data is expanding at an exponential rate. The scale of data today is orders of magnitude versus what it was in on-prem systems. And so, you know, I don't think the cloud providers are too worried because data is exploding at such a, a crazy pace. And so it really becomes about using all of those resources as efficiently as possible. And, and in the cloud where compute is fully elastic, it scales infinitely instantly on demand. You know, it's all about getting it's, it's, it's all about making sure that if you're spending more, you're getting more business value. There's not wastage in the system. >>Same question, but different. Do you feel like strategically organizations generally in capital one specifically will, will, will optimize their time on optimizing or spend their, their effort optimizing the cloud costs? Or do you feel like long term you can actually be cheaper to manage yourself? In other words, our, our cloud benefits of not doing all that heavy lifting offset that potential, you know, cost equation. >>I mean, you saved just so much time and effort and headache, not having to manage physical infrastructure. And so like, you know, snowflake, you can write a sequel command to create a database. You can write a sequel command to create a data warehouse. Like the market will not give up that level of simplicity for managing infrastructure. And so I think at the end of the day, you're gonna, you're gonna see a focus on efficiency because what you really want your teams to be focused on your old, your old DBA and data engineering teams is focused on driving customer value, not in the weeds of infrastructure management. >>And that's why I think you guys, this is a great business that you're starting. And I think you, I, frankly, I think you're gonna get a lot of competition, which is a good thing that says you're in a great business and you guys are first >>Talk about the customer experience. You know, we are also as consumers demanding, we wanna be able to transact ASAP. We wanna make sure that, you know, on the swipe fraud detection happens, how does the Slingshot help facilitate and improve the customer experience if I'm transacting or I'm gonna sign up or I'm getting a mortgage. >>So with Slingshot, we enable your company, regardless of what you do at, at capital one, we're, we're a bank to build more personalized experiences for customers in a more cost effective way. And so Enno is our, our intelligent, personal banking assistant with snowflake. We're enable Enno to do way more than we were previously for less than we would've without some of these tools. >>And that's a huge competitive differentiator because we expect as consumers and of whatever it is. We want a personalized experience, right? That's relevant. That's gonna offer us products and services that might build upon what we've already done. >>It's it's kind of table stakes these days. Yes. And so with these tools and with snowflake, we were able to onboard our business teams were able to onboard over 400 new use cases over, over that same time period. And so really what it's enabled us to do is unlock the innovative power of our company and create more of these customer experiences. >>How does the customer visualize those, those cost savings? And, and, and do, do, do you have some tooling, maybe it's in the works to help them predict what kind of cost savings they have based on some modeling that >>You do. And absolutely. So we enable teams to enforce good governance around infrastructure management, up front by building rules and enabling their teams to create warehouses, create databases. And then once that infrastructure is up and running, we give them a whole bunch of dashboards that show transparency and to spend, we enable chargebacks to lines of business in today's consumption, driven business models. It's hard to reconcile at the end of the month, if you spent what you thought you spent and, and data costs have gone from CapEx to OPEX and, but not everybody is an expert. And so we look at usage data, we look at usage history and we come up with recommendations for how you can save money by, you know, tweaking this or tweaking that or better optimizing your, your compute. >>Should we expect you as you expand your opportunity to take your expertise and aim it at AWS more broadly, maybe Redshift more specifically, Google GCP, big query Azure, what, what should we expect there? >>You know, there's, there's a lot of opportunity to help companies optimize costs across other cloud providers as well. This, this concept of elastic compute, isn't just specific to snowflake. That's certainly one path that we could go down. You know, we have a lot of expertise in, in data management as well, and data privacy, data security. And so that's that, that's another path as well that, that we have expertise in. And so, you know, I think it's, it's an exciting time we're in, we're in an exciting place, but it's early days, >>Did you do a working backwards document? Can you share that with us? >>Fortunately >>Not five, five or 10 years down the road, you may decide to do that, right? >>Yeah. Let me, let me check with my PR person to see if I'm allowed to share here. That's >>I mean, I think this is gonna be a huge success and, and I think it it's, it's, it follows a lot of the things that we've learned from AWS. Yeah. And you guys have been all in there and, and, you know, it's funny, right? We laugh about working backwards, customer obsession, two pizza teams. I mean, it really has changed the sort of way that we think about developing software and, and managing infrastructures. I, I think you're gonna have a, a huge business and I, I wish you the best. >>I, I appreciate that. And the, the thing, a lot of that statement is, you know, internal teams are now starting to demand consumer great experiences for the tools that they use. Yeah, for sure. And so one of the things that we did was treat our internal associates. Like they were external customers, we applied design thinking, we applied product management, we built our experience in terms of what are you trying to accomplish? And what's getting in your way, because that's what people have come to expect with all of these consumer experiences, >>Collaboration. That's right. What last question for you? What would you say to peers in your, whatever, same industry, other industries that are really trying to figure out how to get their hands on data to become a data company, what would you advise them? Why should they choose >>Snowflake gives you so many building blocks out of the box to help you create a, a well-managed data ecosystem? You know, the simplicity with which you can create new infrastructure, define policies for that infrastructure onboard new users. I mean, it, it's one of the platforms in internally capital one that has the highest NPS score. And so, you know, if you're looking to adopt a, a data cloud platform, I mean, snowflake is certainly high up on the list of what you should be looking at. >>That's >>Awesome. How do you, do you consider this a SA, is it a consumption or how do you price for this? >>So we, we don't have published pricing at the moment, but it is, it is a SAS product. You know, what we can share is it'll, it'll be a, you know, small fraction of, of your, of your total credit spend with snowflake and, and >>You're thinking a subscription or, or haven't figured that out yet, >>It it'll likely be a, a consumption model based on, you know. Okay. >>So the, so, so say, you know, it's funny SAS, I get it. Software's a service, but it, but because it's consumption, I think it's like modern SAS. If I can say that, you know, it's cloud >>SAS and it, it, you know, it's more important to make sure right now, because we're so early that we're actually providing the right value to customers. We have a pretty generous trial program going on right now where you can try the, the, the software out for free to make sure it, it fits your needs. So, >>Okay. So you're in trial, right. I should have clarified that you're in trial now. And, and so, yeah, of course you haven't figured out exactly how you're gonna price it yet. But >>The, the, the official posture that we're taking is public preview. We've, we've been in private preview for the last six months. We've onboarded a, a couple of customers who are starting to use the product. And so the, the big announcement this week is we're officially in public preview, come on in. >>So you gotta get product market fit. That's right. Before you figure out your pricing and before you, then you, then you're gonna scale. Great. >>What's been the feedback so far >>Overwhelmingly positive. Somebody stopped by the booth and said, oh my God, that's so cool. We've heard a lot of, wow, we need this right now. You know, it's, I had pretty, pretty high expectations coming in, just based on the value that this is created for capital one, but I've, I've been blown away by, by what I've heard from the people who've stopped by our booth. >>Awesome. Patrick, thank you for joining Dave and me on the program, talking about what you're doing with capital one software seems like you're just in early innings, but so much potential to come. We wish you the best of luck with that. And you have to come back and tell us how it's going. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, our pleasure for Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube our day three coverage of snowflake summit 22 live from Las Vegas continues after a short break.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to "The Cube's" continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. We're running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events of the year with AWS and its ecosystem partners. And of course, special thanks to AMD for supporting this year's editorial coverage at the event. We got two live sets. We had two remote sets, one in Boston and one in Palo Alto. We got more than 100 guests coming on the program, and we're looking deep into the next decade of cloud innovation. We're super excited to be joined by Ali Zafar, who's the senior director of platform strategy and operations at Dropbox. Ali, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Awesome, it's a pleasure to be here with you, Dave. >> So hey, what's your day job like at Dropbox and what's your role? >> Got it. So I actually oversee the global supply chain at Dropbox. Also all of the capacity planning, which entails both our budget and also capacity requirements at Dropbox. And then I also focus on the platform product management side, which is basically building our build versus buy and our overall roadmap for our platform in the long run. >> Great, thank you. So, everybody knows Dropbox, but maybe you could talk a little bit about your business, your mission, and how that's evolved over the past several years. >> Got it. So Dropbox is a global collaboration platform and our mission at Dropbox is to help design a more enlightened way of working. Dropbox has over 700 million registered users and over 550 billion pieces of content. So taking a step back Dave, Dropbox helps with all of your content. Think of this as videos as music, even your tax returns, allows you to organize all of this content and then you can share this content with anybody at any time. You can also take Dropbox to work and actually it makes you even more productive in the workplace. Integrating all of your tools seamlessly, also allowing you to collaborate with all of your teams internally and also externally. >> Thank you, Ali. When Dropbox was founded, the cloud was really nascent, right? So it was early days, and so a lot has changed since the mid last decade. And of course with remote work and hybrid work, that's had to be a real tailwind to your business, but maybe you could explain your cloud and your hybrid cloud strategy. >> Got it, you're spot on Dave. So Dropbox has always been hybrid since its inception in 2007. And when I say hybrid, I mean we have our own on-prem infrastructure and then we also leverage public cloud. Now public cloud still to these days, remains absolutely critical for Dropbox to serve all of its customer needs. And when we talk about the decision between public or private, we think about three or four key things. One is the total cost of ownership, we look at go-to-market, we also look at our customer requirements and the latest technology that's available in the market. And then any international data storage requirements to make the decision of going towards public or private for that specific use case. >> So, I wonder if we could follow up on that. Maybe you could talk about the key business considerations as an SAS storage provider. What are the real drivers and in your business framework? >> Got it. At the end of the day, what really matters for us Dave, is to actually think about our customers and delight them. And what better than to focus on performance, reliability and also security, right? So we want to make sure that the infrastructure that we have today, allows Dropbox to actually solve for this specific use case for our customers. You know, what do they care about? While also doing this in a very efficient, managed way. So to summarize that, looking at performance, looking at liability, looking at scalability, looking at efficiency, and then also compliance. >> So that leads me to my next question, is about the EC2 instances that you use. I know you make heavy use of AMD compute. How did you come to that decision? Was it these factors? Was it all performance? How did you migrate to really enable that capability? How complex was that? >> Got it. So AMD has always been our key strategic partners partners. The partnership is well over four to five years right now, and we've been leveraging them on our on-prem infrastructure for compute. So we've always had AMD in our infrastructure and when the time came where AWS was also leveraging some of the AMD instances, we wanted to see how we can expand the partnership with AMD and AWS and also experiment with these instances. So we looked at some of the tooling updates that were required. We also looked at specific instances, which are either compute optimized and memory optimized instances, and then we actually built our footprint on AMD. And what we saw is that the overall performance improvement and also cost improvements that we got per specific workloads was actually extremely, was overall awesome results for Dropbox and our end customers. And we have been using them ever since. >> What kind of business impact did that make? Did it make a difference to your business that was noticeable? >> On the business side, I think primarily it was more on the TCO side, which is where we got most of the benefits on the cost side. And then also for some of our internal workloads, we also saw benefit to our internal developers that are using some of those workloads. >> So, you guys have become the poster child for hybrid and a lot has been talked about about you all, but I wonder if you could help us understand what part of your infrastructure is going to be better served by public cloud versus doing your own I T on-prem. What are some of the value drivers that are making you push workloads into the public cloud? Help us understand that better and squint through that. >> Got it, I get asked that question a lot. So public cloud in general allows for faster go-to-market. Think about this as like product launches, feature launches, also international expansion. It allows us to scale and then also leveraging some of the existing technologies out there in the market for some of the common workloads. So just taking a step back and thinking about Dropbox, we keep on evaluating also the criteria and then also specific workloads on what makes sense on private or public cloud. And AWS had some instances like S3 RDS and EC2 that when we started looking at, we knew that some of our key services like data platform, some parts of the MLN A I, and even paper platform would make more sense for us to actually leverage some of these in a public cloud for that. >> So what are the characteristics of the workload that are better suited to be an AWS? What's the ideal workload profile? You know, we talk about ideal customer profile. What's the ideal workload profile for the AWS cloud? >> Got it, so the way we think about it, at least, we call it the rule of three at Dropbox. And that means we look at scale first, we look at technology and innovation and what I mean by that is, is there a faster innovation in the public cloud and is that workload common enough that there's already a lot of work going on in public cloud, then there's no reason for us to actually innovate faster than that, we probably can't. And if the scale is not large enough. So when we talk about our storage side, like magic pocket, the scale is large enough where innovating there makes sense and it's better for the end customer. So we would probably go towards private cloud there. But then when we talk about international expansion, when we talk about faster go-to-market or some of the innovation in the MLN A I space, it really makes sense to use public cloud because of all of the advancements that we've seen there. >> So let me circle back to the business benefits and impact of the AMD based compute specifically, but you talked about TCO before, so there's certain things you mentioned on-prem you sometimes use. If the thing's hardened, you don't want to necessarily rip and replace it, but if you can accelerate go-to-market and you spin up things in the cloud, that makes sense. You mentioned customer requirements, so that just kind of depends. And then the international expansion and scale. So it comes down to those whatever four or five factors, right? The TCO, those other factors that I mentioned. Kind of the high level benefits, if you wouldn't mind summarizing for us, Ali. >> Yeah, I think you're spot on there. So there's looking at the overall TCO, right? The cost of serving the overall cloud, looking at go-to-market in general, can we leverage public cloud and go-to-market faster, obviously meeting our end customer requirements. We also looked at international expansion, any of the customer's data that is stored outside of the U S is all on public cloud for Dropbox. No plans in the short term to do something different there. And then also just looking at, like I mentioned, anything in the technology space that is ongoing, that we can leverage feature side or the product side for our customers, like A I or M L, we are going to leverage public cloud there. >> So of course you know, we've followed the progression of semiconductor technology for decades. This industry is marched to the cadence of performance improvements. What do the futures hold from a technology roadmap standpoint, and particularly as it relates to leveraging AMD EC2 instances, Ali? >> Got it. So Dropbox is in a very unique position where we actually leverage AMD both on-prem and for public cloud, leveraging some of the AWS EC2 instances like you mentioned. And EPYC processors from AMD are what we're using today, both on the hybrid infrastructure side and the performance. And also the TCO benefits are real and something that we are observing on a day-to-day basis. So we are going to be leveraging that technology even in the future, and the partnership with the AMD continues to be very, very strong for Dropbox. >> Well, Ali, I really appreciate you coming on "The Cube" as part of our coverage. It's great to have you. Love to have you back sometime. >> Awesome, thank you. And also just last thing we wanted to also call out that we are also going to be experimenting with probably Milan that is coming out. Rome is the current processors from AMD that we have been leveraging and as Milan comes available, we do want to continue to evaluate it and see how we can fit it in our infrastructure. >> So their are generations are city-based. Are they all Italian city-based, or are we going to run out of cities soon? (both laughing) >> Got it. Again, the partnership with both AWS and AMD is something that I'm very proud of. >> Excellent. >> Thank you so much. Thank you, Dave. >> Great to have you Ali, and really appreciate you watching. Keep it right there for more action on "The Cube", your leader in hybrid tech event coverage. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to "The Cube's" continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. We're running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events of the year with AWS and its ecosystem partners. And of course, special thanks to AMD for supporting this year's editorial coverage at the event. We got two live sets. We had two remote sets, one in Boston and one in Palo Alto. We got more than 100 guests coming on the program, and we're looking deep into the next decade of cloud innovation. We're super excited to be joined by Ali Zafar, who's the senior director of platform strategy and operations at Dropbox. Ali, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Awesome, it's a pleasure to be here with you, Dave. >> So hey, what's your day job like at Dropbox and what's your role? >> Got it. So I actually oversee the global supply chain at Dropbox. Also all of the capacity planning, which entails both our budget and also capacity requirements at Dropbox. And then I also focus on the platform product management side, which is basically building our build versus buy and our overall roadmap for our platform in the long run. >> Great, thank you. So, everybody knows Dropbox, but maybe you could talk a little bit about your business, your mission, and how that's evolved over the past several years. >> Got it. So Dropbox is a global collaboration platform and our mission at Dropbox is to help design a more enlightened way of working. Dropbox has over 700 million registered users and over 550 billion pieces of content. So taking a step back Dave, Dropbox helps with all of your content. Think of this as videos as music, even your tax returns, allows you to organize all of this content and then you can share this content with anybody at any time. You can also take Dropbox to work and actually it makes you even more productive in the workplace. Integrating all of your tools seamlessly, also allowing you to collaborate with all of your teams internally and also externally. >> Thank you, Ali. When Dropbox was founded, the cloud was really nascent, right? So it was early days, and so a lot has changed since the mid last decade. And of course with remote work and hybrid work, that's had to be a real tailwind to your business, but maybe you could explain your cloud and your hybrid cloud strategy. >> Got it, you're spot on Dave. So Dropbox has always been hybrid since its inception in 2007. And when I say hybrid, I mean we have our own on-prem infrastructure and then we also leverage public cloud. Now public cloud still to these days, remains absolutely critical for Dropbox to serve all of its customer needs. And when we talk about the decision between public or private, we think about three or four key things. One is the total cost of ownership, we look at go-to-market, we also look at our customer requirements and the latest technology that's available in the market. And then any international data storage requirements to make the decision of going towards public or private for that specific use case. >> So, I wonder if we could follow up on that. Maybe you could talk about the key business considerations as an SAS storage provider. What are the real drivers and in your business framework? >> Got it. At the end of the day, what really matters for us Dave, is to actually think about our customers and delight them. And what better than to focus on performance, reliability and also security, right? So we want to make sure that the infrastructure that we have today, allows Dropbox to actually solve for this specific use case for our customers. You know, what do they care about? While also doing this in a very efficient, managed way. So to summarize that, looking at performance, looking at liability, looking at scalability, looking at efficiency, and then also compliance. >> So that leads me to my next question, is about the EC2 instances that you use. I know you make heavy use of AMD compute. How did you come to that decision? Was it these factors? Was it all performance? How did you migrate to really enable that capability? How complex was that? >> Got it. So AMD has always been our key strategic partners partners. The partnership is well over four to five years right now, and we've been leveraging them on our on-prem infrastructure for compute. So we've always had AMD in our infrastructure and when the time came where AWS was also leveraging some of the AMD instances, we wanted to see how we can expand the partnership with AMD and AWS and also experiment with these instances. So we looked at some of the tooling updates that were required. We also looked at specific instances, which are either compute optimized and memory optimized instances, and then we actually built our footprint on AMD. And what we saw is that the overall performance improvement and also cost improvements that we got per specific workloads was actually extremely, was overall awesome results for Dropbox and our end customers. And we have been using them ever since. >> What kind of business impact did that make? Did it make a difference to your business that was noticeable? >> On the business side, I think primarily it was more on the TCO side, which is where we got most of the benefits on the cost side. And then also for some of our internal workloads, we also saw benefit to our internal developers that are using some of those workloads. >> So, you guys have become the poster child for hybrid and a lot has been talked about about you all, but I wonder if you could help us understand what part of your infrastructure is going to be better served by public cloud versus doing your own I T on-prem. What are some of the value drivers that are making you push workloads into the public cloud? Help us understand that better and squint through that. >> Got it, I get asked that question a lot. So public cloud in general allows for faster go-to-market. Think about this as like product launches, feature launches, also international expansion. It allows us to scale and then also leveraging some of the existing technologies out there in the market for some of the common workloads. So just taking a step back and thinking about Dropbox, we keep on evaluating also the criteria and then also specific workloads on what makes sense on private or public cloud. And AWS had some instances like S3 RDS and EC2 that when we started looking at, we knew that some of our key services like data platform, some parts of the MLN A I, and even paper platform would make more sense for us to actually leverage some of these in a public cloud for that. >> So what are the characteristics of the workload that are better suited to be an AWS? What's the ideal workload profile? You know, we talk about ideal customer profile. What's the ideal workload profile for the AWS cloud? >> Got it, so the way we think about it, at least, we call it the rule of three at Dropbox. And that means we look at scale first, we look at technology and innovation and what I mean by that is, is there a faster innovation in the public cloud and is that workload common enough that there's already a lot of work going on in public cloud, then there's no reason for us to actually innovate faster than that, we probably can't. And if the scale is not large enough. So when we talk about our storage side, like magic pocket, the scale is large enough where innovating there makes sense and it's better for the end customer. So we would probably go towards private cloud there. But then when we talk about international expansion, when we talk about faster go-to-market or some of the innovation in the MLN A I space, it really makes sense to use public cloud because of all of the advancements that we've seen there. >> So let me circle back to the business benefits and impact of the AMD based compute specifically, but you talked about TCO before, so there's certain things you mentioned on-prem you sometimes use. If the thing's hardened, you don't want to necessarily rip and replace it, but if you can accelerate go-to-market and you spin up things in the cloud, that makes sense. You mentioned customer requirements, so that just kind of depends. And then the international expansion and scale. So it comes down to those whatever four or five factors, right? The TCO, those other factors that I mentioned. Kind of the high level benefits, if you wouldn't mind summarizing for us, Ali. >> Yeah, I think you're spot on there. So there's looking at the overall TCO, right? The cost of serving the overall cloud, looking at go-to-market in general, can we leverage public cloud and go-to-market faster, obviously meeting our end customer requirements. We also looked at international expansion, any of the customer's data that is stored outside of the U S is all on public cloud for Dropbox. No plans in the short term to do something different there. And then also just looking at, like I mentioned, anything in the technology space that is ongoing, that we can leverage feature side or the product side for our customers, like A I or M L, we are going to leverage public cloud there. >> So of course you know, we've followed the progression of semiconductor technology for decades. This industry is marched to the cadence of performance improvements. What do the futures hold from a technology roadmap standpoint, and particularly as it relates to leveraging AMD EC2 instances, Ali? >> Got it. So Dropbox is in a very unique position where we actually leverage AMD both on-prem and for public cloud, leveraging some of the AWS EC2 instances like you mentioned. And EPYC processors from AMD are what we're using today, both on the hybrid infrastructure side and the performance. And also the TCO benefits are real and something that we are observing on a day-to-day basis. So we are going to be leveraging that technology even in the future, and the partnership with the AMD continues to be very, very strong for Dropbox. >> Well, Ali, I really appreciate you coming on "The Cube" as part of our coverage. It's great to have you. Love to have you back sometime. >> Awesome, thank you. And also just last thing we wanted to also call out that we are also going to be experimenting with probably Milan that is coming out. Rome is the current processors from AMD that we have been leveraging and as Milan comes available, we do want to continue to evaluate it and see how we can fit it in our infrastructure. >> So their are generations are city-based. Are they all Italian city-based, or are we going to run out of cities soon? (both laughing) >> Got it. Again, the partnership with both AWS and AMD is something that I'm very proud of. >> Excellent. >> Thank you so much. Thank you, Dave. >> Great to have you Ali, and really appreciate you watching. Keep it right there for more action on "The Cube", your leader in hybrid tech event coverage. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back here at theCUBE on this floor in CLOUD CITY, the center of all the action at Mobile World Congress. I'm John Brown your host. Michael current CTO of Virta San is here with me remote because this is a virtual event as well, this is a hybrid event. The first industry hybrid event, Greg would be back in real life on the floor, Michael, you coming in remotely. Thanks for joining us here in the cube in cloud city. >> Thanks for having me and said the beer. >> We were just talking on camera about. He went to Michigan and football, all that good time while we were waiting from Adam to pseudo great stuff, but let's get into what you guys are doing. You've got a great cloud news, we're going to get to, but take a minute to explain what you guys do first. >> So Virtasant helps organizations of any size thrive in the cloud. So we have a unique combination of proprietary technologies, such as our cloud optimization platform that we'll talk about in a minute and a global team of experts that helps companies make the most of the cloud from getting to the cloud and building the cloud to optimizing the cloud all the way to managing the cloud at scale. >> Well, you got a lot of experience dealing with the enterprise, a lot of customer growth over the years, great leader. The cloud dynamic here is the big story at mobile world congress, this year, the change over, I won't say change over per se, but certainly the shift or growth of cloud on top of telco, you guys have some news here at mobile world congress. Let's share the news, what's the big scoop? >> So we have an automated cloud optimization platform that helps companies automatically understand your usage patterns and do spend fully, automatically. And we focus first on AWS is the biggest cloud provider, but starting this week, we wanted announces we're actually going live with our GCP product, which means people who are on the GCP cloud platform can now leverage our platform to constantly understand usage patterns and spend and automatically take action to reduce spend. So we typically see customers save over 50% when they use our platform. So now GCP customers can take advantage of the same capabilities that our AWS customers take advantage of every day. >> Talk about the relationships as you get deeper. And this seems to be the pattern I want to just unpack it. You don't mind a little bit the relationship with Google and this announcement and Amazon you're tightly coupled with them, is it more integration? Talk about what makes these deals different and special for your customers? What's what's, what's about them. What's the big deal? >> Well, I think for us, obviously we think that, you know, the public cloud's the future, right? And obviously cloud city and all the different companies there agree with us, and we think that much like, you know, you don't, you don't generate your own electricity. We don't think you're going to generate you're to you're going to build your own technology infrastructure. For the most part, we think that pretty much all compute will be in the public cloud. And obviously AWS is the market leader in the largest cloud provider in the, but you know, GCP, especially with telecom has some compelling offerings. And we think that, you know, organizations are going to want choice. Many will go multicloud, meaning they'll have 1, 2, 3 of the big providers and move workloads across those. But even those who choose one cloud provider, you know, each cloud provider has their strengths and different companies will choose different providers. And they're all, you know, they've all got strong capabilities and their uniqueness. So we want to make sure that whether, you know, an organization goes across all cloud providers or they choose one that we can support them no matter what the workloads look like, and so for us, you know, developing deep relationships with each of the public cloud providers, but also, you know, expanding our full set of capabilities to support all of them is critically important because we do think that there's going to be, you know, a handful of large public cloud providers and obviously AWS and GCP are among them. >> Yeah, I mean, I talk to people all the time and even, you know, we're an Amazon customer, pretty robust cloud in the bills out of control is what's, what's this charge for it. There's more services to tap into, you know, it's like first one's on me, you know? And then next thing you know, you're, you're consuming a hell of a lot of new services, but there's value there and there's breaths a minute for the cloud, we all love that. But just as a random aside here, I want to get your thoughts real quick, if you don't mind, this idea of a cloud economist has become part of a new role in an organization, certainly SRS is DevOps. Then you starting to get into people who actually can squint through the data and understand the consumption and be more on the economics side, because people are changing how they report their earnings. They're changing how they report their KPIs based upon the usage and costs, and... What, is this real? what's your thoughts on that? I know that's a little random, but I want to get your, get your thoughts on that. >> Well, yeah, it's interesting that that's been a development. What I will say is, you know, the economics of cloud are complicated and they're still changing and still emerging, so I think that's probably more of a reaction to how dynamic the environment is then kind of a long-term trend. I mean, admittedly for us we hope that, you know, a lot of that analysis and the data that's required and will be provided by our platform. So you can think about it as, you know, a digital or AI powered cloud economist. So I don't, I don't know, hopefully our customers can use the platform and get everything they need and they won't need to go out and hire a cloud economist. That sounds expensive. >> Well, I think one of the things that sounds like great opportunities to make that go away, where you don't have to waste a resource to go through the cost side. I want to get your thoughts on this. This comes up all the time, certainly on Twitter, I'm always riffing on it. It comes up on a lot of my interviews and private chats with people about their, their cloud architecture, spend can get out of control pretty quickly. And data is a big part of it. Moving data is always going to be... Especially Amazon and Google, moving data in and out of the cloud is great. Now with the edge, I just talked to Bill Vass at a Amazon web service. He's the VP of engineering. You can literally bring the cloud to the edge and all the clouds are going to be doing this, these edge hubs. So that's going to process data at the edge, but it's also going to open up more services, right? So, you know, it's complicated enough as it is, spend is getting out of control. And it's only seems to be getting out of control even more. How do you talk to customers? I'd want to not be afraid they want to jump in, but they also want to have a hedge. Yeah, what's your, what's your take on your story? >> I think there's a lot of debate right now as to whether or not, you know, moving to the cloud from a cost perspective is cost-effective or more costly. And there's a pretty healthy debate going on at the moment. I think that the reality is, you know, yes, the cloud makes it easier for you to take on new services and bring on new things, and that of course drives spend, but it also unlocks incredible possibilities. What we try to do is help organizations take advantage of those possibilities and kind of the capabilities of the cloud while managing spend, and it's a complex problem, but it's a solvable problem. So for us, we think that, you know the job of the cloud providers is to, you know, continue to innovate and continue to bring more and more capability to bear so that organizations can transform through technology, the job of the teams using that technologies is to really leverage those capabilities, to build and to innovate and to serve their customers. And what we want to do is enable them to do that in a cost-effective manner, and we believe, and we have data to prove that if you do public cloud, right, it's cheaper because you know, those, those organizations, you know, much like, you know, at the turn of the industrial revolution, factories used to have their own power plants because you couldn't effectively reliably and kind of cost-effectively generate power at scale. Obviously no one does that now. And I think with the cloud providers, that's the same thing. I mean, they're investing in proprietary hardware, tons of software, tons of automation. They're highly secure. You know, at the end of the day, they're going to always be able to provide a given capability at a lower cost point. Like, of course they need to make profit. So there's a bit of margin in there, but, you know, at the end of the day, we think that both the flexibility and capability of it combined with their ability to operate at scale gives you a better value proposition, especially if you do it right. And that's what we want to focus on is, you know, the answer is there. You just need the right data and the right intelligence to find it. >> Totally, I totally agree with you. In fact, I had a big debate with Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz about cloud repatriation, and he was calling his paradigm. Do you focus on the cost or the revenue? And obviously they have Dropbox, which is a big example of that, and I even interviewed the Zynga guys and they actually went back to Amazon, although they didn't report that, but I'm a big believer that if you can't get the new revenue, then you're in cosmos then, and there are the issues, but again, I don't want to go there right now. I'll talk about that another time, but I want to get your, I want to get the playbook, so first of all, I love what you do, I think it's an opportunity to take that heavy lifting away from customers around understanding cost optimization. A lot of people don't know how to do it. So take us through a playbook. What are some best practices that you guys have seen to help people figure this out? What do you say to somebody, help me, Michael, I'm in a world of hurt, what do I do? What's the playbook? Can you give some examples of day in the life? >> Sure, so I think, I think the first thing is know what you're spending money on which sounds obvious, but you know, there's cloud environments are complicated, especially at scale. There's hundreds of thousands of skews and lots of different usage patterns. And I think the first thing is understand what you're spending money on. Number two is understand what you're getting for that spend. So, you know, what value are you driving with that spend? And then number three is put the information in the hands of the people who can do something about it. And I think that is, is one of the things that we really focus on is, you know, we built our product from an engineering focus first. It was engineers solving the problem of understanding how to keep cloud costs in control. And so our whole principle is give the people, working with the technology, the data to make good decisions and give them the power to act on it. And so, you know, a lot of companies say, "Oh, we're spending more over here. Or maybe we should look at that." But, but what we believe is actually be specific, where are you spending money? Where exactly are you spending too much? And what should you do about that? And give that information to the people who can take action, which are the engineers. And then lastly make it important in the organization because there's a ton of competing priorities. And what we've found is that, you know, where there's leadership support there's results. And so I think if you do those four things, you know, results will follow. Now, obviously, you know, you need to understand specific utilization patterns and know what to do with different kinds of resources and all of that stuff is complicated, but there are certainly solutions out there. Ours included who helped you with that. So if you get the other four things, right, plus you have some help, you can keep it under control and actually not just keep it under control, but operate in an environment that's much cheaper than hosting all this technology yourself and much more flexible. >> That's a great point, I mean, the fact that you mentioned earlier, the engineering piece that is so true people I've talked to, you mean our experiences and it's pretty common. The DevOps team tends to get involved in things like making sure you're buying reserve instances or all kinds of ways to optimize patterns, and that's also an issue, right? I mean, first of all, it makes sense that they're doing it, but also engineering time is being spent on essentially accounting at that point. Demonstrates the shift, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying that got to be realistic. It's a time sink for the engineering when they're not engineering accounting, or should they, this is a legit question, it's not so much they should or shouldn't, I mean, if you say to someone, "Hey, you're paid to build and write software and you're spending your time solving accounting problems." That's obviously a mismatch. But when you talk about SREs and DevOps, Michael, it's kind of what might not be a bad thing, right? I mean, so how do people react to that? Are they kind of scratching their head on the same way? Or are you guys the solution to that? >> Well, I think that at first they are, but for us, at least it's, you know, we don't want them trying to understand the intricacies of a savings plan or understanding kind of the different options for compute instances. What we want them to do is we give them all the information. So our approach is give them all the information. They need to quickly make a decision, let them make a decision, like push a button and then let the change happen automatically. So if you think about it, you know, the amount of time they spend is, is a minute. That's the goal because then we can use their expertise. So it's not a finance person or an accountant doing research and making decisions that may or may not make technical sense and then looping in a bunch of people and they all talk, and then all that, that kind of whole process it's now here is a data-driven observation and recommendation. You have context to say yes or no, if you push the button and then you say, yes, then, you know, the change happens. If you say, no, the system learns. >> It's building right into the pipeline and they're shifting left to security, it's the same concept. It's really a great thing. I really think you're onto something big.,I love this story. It's kind of one of those things where reality's there. Michael, we've got 30 seconds left. I want to get your thoughts to share what put a plug in for the company, what you guys are doing, what are you looking at higher? You got a 30 second plug, go plug the company, what do you got? >> Well, you know, we think that, you know, for any organization, big or small, trying to make the most of the public cloud and be cloud first, you know, we, we bring a unique set of expertise, automation, and technology capabilities to bear, to help them thrive in the cloud and make the most of it. So, you know, obviously we would love to work with any company that, that wants to be cloud first and fully embrace the public cloud. I think we've got all the tools to help them thrive. >> Yeah, and I think, I think the confluence of business logic technology engineering working together is a home run. It's only going to get more stronger, so congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Adam, back to you in the studio for more action, theCUBE is out, we'll see you later.

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Database is the heart of enterprise computing. The market is both exploding and it's evolving. The major force is transforming the space include Cloud and data, of course, but also new workloads, advanced memory and IO capabilities, new processor types, a massive push towards simplicity, new data sharing and governance models, and a spate of venture investment. Snowflake stands out as the gold standard for operational excellence and go to market execution. The company has attracted the attention of customers, investors, and competitors and everyone from entrenched players to upstarts once in the act. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll share our most current thinking on the database marketplace and dig into Snowflake's execution. Some of its challenges and we'll take a look at how others are making moves to solve customer problems and try to get a piece of the growing database pie. Let's look at some of the factors that are driving market momentum. First, customers want lower license costs. They want simplicity. They want to avoid database sprawl. They want to run anywhere and manage new data types. These needs often are divergent and they pull vendors and technologies in different direction. It's really hard for any one platform to accommodate every customer need. The market is large and it's growing. Gardner has it at around 60 to 65 billion with a CAGR of somewhere around 20% over the next five years. But the market, as we know it is being redefined. Traditionally, databases have served two broad use cases, OLTP or transactions and reporting like data warehouses. But a diversity of workloads and new architectures and innovations have given rise to a number of new types of databases to accommodate all these diverse customer needs. Many billions have been spent over the last several years in venture money and it continues to pour in. Let me just give you some examples. Snowflake prior to its IPO, raised around 1.4 billion. Redis Labs has raised more than 1/2 billion dollars so far, Cockroach Labs, more than 350 million, Couchbase, 250 million, SingleStore formerly MemSQL, 238 million, Yellowbrick Data, 173 million. And if you stretch the definition of database a little bit to including low-code or no-code, Airtable has raised more than 600 million. And that's by no means a complete list. Now, why is all this investment happening? Well, in a large part, it's due to the TAM. The TAM is huge and it's growing and it's being redefined. Just how big is this market? Let's take a look at a chart that we've shown previously. We use this chart to Snowflakes TAM, and it focuses mainly on the analytics piece, but we'll use it here to really underscore the market potential. So the actual database TAM is larger than this, we think. Cloud and Cloud-native technologies have changed the way we think about databases. Virtually 100% of the database players that they're are in the market have pivoted to a Cloud first strategy. And many like Snowflake, they're pretty dogmatic and have a Cloud only strategy. Databases has historically been very difficult to manage, they're really sensitive to latency. So that means they require a lot of tuning. Cloud allows you to throw virtually infinite resources on demand and attack performance problems and scale very quickly, minimizing the complexity and tuning nuances. This idea, this layer of data as a service we think of it as a staple of digital transformation. Is this layer that's forming to support things like data sharing across ecosystems and the ability to build data products or data services. It's a fundamental value proposition of Snowflake and one of the most important aspects of its offering. Snowflake tracks a metric called edges, which are external connections in its data Cloud. And it claims that 15% of its total shared connections are edges and that's growing at 33% quarter on quarter. This notion of data sharing is changing the way people think about data. We use terms like data as an asset. This is the language of the 2010s. We don't share our assets with others, do we? No, we protect them, we secure or them, we even hide them. But we absolutely don't want to share those assets but we do want to share our data. I had a conversation recently with Forrester analyst, Michelle Goetz. And we both agreed we're going to scrub data as an asset from our phrasiology. Increasingly, people are looking at sharing as a way to create, as I said, data products or data services, which can be monetized. This is an underpinning of Zhamak Dehghani's concept of a data mesh, make data discoverable, shareable and securely governed so that we can build data products and data services that can be monetized. This is where the TAM just explodes and the market is redefining. And we think is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Let's talk a little bit about the diversity of offerings in the marketplace. Again, databases used to be either transactional or analytic. The bottom lines and top lines. And this chart here describe those two but the types of databases, you can see the middle of mushrooms, just looking at this list, blockchain is of course a specialized type of database and it's also finding its way into other database platforms. Oracle is notable here. Document databases that support JSON and graph data stores that assist in visualizing data, inference from multiple different sources. That's is one of the ways in which adtech has taken off and been so effective. Key Value stores, log databases that are purpose-built, machine learning to enhance insights, spatial databases to help build the next generation of products, the next automobile, streaming databases to manage real time data flows and time series databases. We might've missed a few, let us know if you think we have, but this is a kind of pretty comprehensive list that is somewhat mind boggling when you think about it. And these unique requirements, they've spawned tons of innovation and companies. Here's a small subset on this logo slide. And this is by no means an exhaustive list, but you have these companies here which have been around forever like Oracle and IBM and Teradata and Microsoft, these are the kind of the tier one relational databases that have matured over the years. And they've got properties like atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability, what's known as ACID properties, ACID compliance. Some others that you may or may not be familiar with, Yellowbrick Data, we talked about them earlier. It's going after the best price, performance and analytics and optimizing to take advantage of both hybrid installations and the latest hardware innovations. SingleStore, as I said, formerly known as MemSQL is a very high end analytics and transaction database, supports mixed workloads, extremely high speeds. We're talking about trillions of rows per second that could be ingested in query. Couchbase with hybrid transactions and analytics, Redis Labs, open source, no SQL doing very well, as is Cockroach with distributed SQL, MariaDB with its managed MySQL, Mongo and document database has a lot of momentum, EDB, which supports open source Postgres. And if you stretch the definition a bit, Splunk, for log database, why not? ChaosSearch, really interesting startup that leaves data in S-3 and is going after simplifying the ELK stack, New Relic, they have a purpose-built database for application performance management and we probably could have even put Workday in the mix as it developed a specialized database for its apps. Of course, we can't forget about SAP with how not trying to pry customers off of Oracle. And then the big three Cloud players, AWS, Microsoft and Google with extremely large portfolios of database offerings. The spectrum of products in this space is very wide, with you've got AWS, which I think we're up to like 16 database offerings, all the way to Oracle, which has like one database to do everything not withstanding MySQL because it owns MySQL got that through the Sun Acquisition. And it recently, it made some innovations there around the heat wave announcement. But essentially Oracle is investing to make its database, Oracle database run any workload. While AWS takes the approach of the right tool for the right job and really focuses on the primitives for each database. A lot of ways to skin a cat in this enormous and strategic market. So let's take a look at the spending data for the names that make it into the ETR survey. Not everybody we just mentioned will be represented because they may not have quite the market presence of the ends in the survey, but ETR that capture a pretty nice mix of players. So this chart here, it's one of the favorite views that we like to share quite often. It shows the database players across the 1500 respondents in the ETR survey this past quarter and it measures their net score. That's spending momentum and is shown on the vertical axis and market share, which is the pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. The Snowflake is notable because it's been hovering around 80% net score since the survey started picking them up. Anything above 40%, that red line there, is considered by us to be elevated. Microsoft and AWS, they also stand out because they have both market presence and they have spending velocity with their platforms. Oracle is very large but it doesn't have the spending momentum in the survey because nearly 30% of Oracle installations are spending less, whereas only 22% are spending more. Now as a caution, this survey doesn't measure dollar spent and Oracle will be skewed toward the big customers with big budgets. So you got to consider that caveat when evaluating this data. IBM is in a similar position although its market share is not keeping up with Oracle's. Google, they've got great tech especially with BigQuery and it has elevated momentum. So not a bad spot to be in although I'm sure it would like to be closer to AWS and Microsoft on the horizontal axis, so it's got some work to do there. And some of the others we mentioned earlier, like MemSQL, Couchbase. As shown MemSQL here, they're now SingleStore. Couchbase, Reddis, Mongo, MariaDB, all very solid scores on the vertical axis. Cloudera just announced that it was selling to private equity and that will hopefully give it some time to invest in this platform and get off the quarterly shot clock. MapR was acquired by HPE and it's part of HPE's Ezmeral platform, their data platform which doesn't yet have the market presence in the survey. Now, something that is interesting in looking at in Snowflakes earnings last quarter, is this laser focused on large customers. This is a hallmark of Frank Slootman and Mike Scarpelli who I know they don't have a playbook but they certainly know how to go whale hunting. So this chart isolates the data that we just showed you to the global 1000. Note that both AWS and Snowflake go up higher on the X-axis meaning large customers are spending at a faster rate for these two companies. The previous chart had an end of 161 for Snowflake, and a 77% net score. This chart shows the global 1000, in the end there for Snowflake is 48 accounts and the net score jumps to 85%. We're not going to show it here but when you isolate the ETR data, nice you can just cut it, when you isolate it on the fortune 1000, the end for Snowflake goes to 59 accounts in the data set and Snowflake jumps another 100 basis points in net score. When you cut the data by the fortune 500, the Snowflake N goes to 40 accounts and the net score jumps another 200 basis points to 88%. And when you isolate on the fortune 100 accounts is only 18 there but it's still 18, their net score jumps to 89%, almost 90%. So it's very strong confirmation that there's a proportional relationship between larger accounts and spending momentum in the ETR data set. So Snowflakes large account strategy appears to be working. And because we think Snowflake is sticky, this probably is a good sign for the future. Now we've been talking about net score, it's a key measure in the ETR data set, so we'd like to just quickly remind you what that is and use Snowflake as an example. This wheel chart shows the components of net score, that lime green is new adoptions. 29% of the customers in the ETR dataset that are new to Snowflake. That's pretty impressive. 50% of the customers are spending more, that's the forest green, 20% are flat, that's the gray, and only 1%, the pink, are spending less. And 0% zero or replacing Snowflake, no defections. What you do here to get net scores, you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 78%. Which is pretty sick and has been sick as in good sick and has been steady for many, many quarters. So that's how the net score methodology works. And remember, it typically takes Snowflake customers many months like six to nine months to start consuming it's services at the contracted rate. So those 29% new adoptions, they're not going to kick into high gear until next year, so that bodes well for future revenue. Now, it's worth taking a quick snapshot at Snowflakes most recent quarter, there's plenty of stuff out there that you can you can google and get a summary but let's just do a quick rundown. The company's product revenue run rate is now at 856 million they'll surpass $1 billion on a run rate basis this year. The growth is off the charts very high net revenue retention. We've explained that before with Snowflakes consumption pricing model, they have to account for retention differently than what a SaaS company. Snowflake added 27 net new $1 million accounts in the quarter and claims to have more than a hundred now. It also is just getting its act together overseas. Slootman says he's personally going to spend more time in Europe, given his belief, that the market is huge and they can disrupt it and of course he's from the continent. He was born there and lived there and gross margins expanded, do in a large part to renegotiation of its Cloud costs. Welcome back to that in a moment. Snowflake it's also moving from a product led growth company to one that's more focused on core industries. Interestingly media and entertainment is one of the largest along with financial services and it's several others. To me, this is really interesting because Disney's example that Snowflake often puts in front of its customers as a reference. And it seems to me to be a perfect example of using data and analytics to both target customers and also build so-called data products through data sharing. Snowflake has to grow its ecosystem to live up to its lofty expectations and indications are that large SIS are leaning in big time. Deloitte cross the $100 million in deal flow in the quarter. And the balance sheet's looking good. Thank you very much with $5 billion in cash. The snarks are going to focus on the losses, but this is all about growth. This is a growth story. It's about customer acquisition, it's about adoption, it's about loyalty and it's about lifetime value. Now, as I said at the IPO, and I always say this to young people, don't buy a stock at the IPO. There's probably almost always going to be better buying opportunities ahead. I'm not always right about that, but I often am. Here's a chart of Snowflake's performance since IPO. And I have to say, it's held up pretty well. It's trading above its first day close and as predicted there were better opportunities than day one but if you have to make a call from here. I mean, don't take my stock advice, do your research. Snowflake they're priced to perfection. So any disappointment is going to be met with selling. You saw that the day after they beat their earnings last quarter because their guidance in revenue growth,. Wasn't in the triple digits, it sort of moderated down to the 80% range. And they pointed, they pointed to a new storage compression feature that will lower customer costs and consequently, it's going to lower their revenue. I swear, I think that that before earnings calls, Scarpelli sits back he's okay, what kind of creative way can I introduce the dampen enthusiasm for the guidance. Now I'm not saying lower storage costs will translate into lower revenue for a period of time. But look at dropping storage prices, customers are always going to buy more, that's the way the storage market works. And stuff like did allude to that in all fairness. Let me introduce something that people in Silicon Valley are talking about, and that is the Cloud paradox for SaaS companies. And what is that? I was a clubhouse room with Martin Casado of Andreessen when I first heard about this. He wrote an article with Sarah Wang, calling it to question the merits of SaaS companies sticking with Cloud at scale. Now the basic premise is that for startups in early stages of growth, the Cloud is a no brainer for SaaS companies, but at scale, the cost of Cloud, the Cloud bill approaches 50% of the cost of revenue, it becomes an albatross that stifles operating leverage. Their conclusion ended up saying that as much as perhaps as much as the back of the napkin, they admitted that, but perhaps as much as 1/2 a trillion dollars in market cap is being vacuumed away by the hyperscalers that could go to the SaaS providers as cost savings from repatriation. And that Cloud repatriation is an inevitable path for large SaaS companies at scale. I was particularly interested in this as I had recently put on a post on the Cloud repatriation myth. I think in this instance, there's some merit to their conclusions. But I don't think it necessarily bleeds into traditional enterprise settings. But for SaaS companies, maybe service now has it right running their own data centers or maybe a hybrid approach to hedge bets and save money down the road is prudent. What caught my attention in reading through some of the Snowflake docs, like the S-1 in its most recent 10-K were comments regarding long-term purchase commitments and non-cancelable contracts with Cloud companies. And the companies S-1, for example, there was disclosure of $247 million in purchase commitments over a five plus year period. And the company's latest 10-K report, that same line item jumped to 1.8 billion. Now Snowflake is clearly managing these costs as it alluded to when its earnings call. But one has to wonder, at some point, will Snowflake follow the example of say Dropbox which Andreessen used in his blog and start managing its own IT? Or will it stick with the Cloud and negotiate hard? Snowflake certainly has the leverage. It has to be one of Amazon's best partners and customers even though it competes aggressively with Redshift but on the earnings call, CFO Scarpelli said, that Snowflake was working on a new chip technology to dramatically increase performance. What the heck does that mean? Is this Snowflake is not becoming a hardware company? So I going to have to dig into that a little bit and find out what that it means. I'm guessing, it means that it's taking advantage of ARM-based processes like graviton, which many ISVs ar allowing their software to run on that lower cost platform. Or maybe there's some deep dark in the weeds secret going on inside Snowflake, but I doubt it. We're going to leave all that for there for now and keep following this trend. So it's clear just in summary that Snowflake they're the pace setter in this new exciting world of data but there's plenty of room for others. And they still have a lot to prove. For instance, one customer in ETR, CTO round table express skepticism that Snowflake will live up to its hype because its success is going to lead to more competition from well-established established players. This is a common theme you hear it all the time. It's pretty easy to reach that conclusion. But my guess is this the exact type of narrative that fuels Slootman and sucked him back into this game of Thrones. That's it for now, everybody. Remember, these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search braking analysis podcast and please subscribe to series. Check out ETR his website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikinbon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, Email is David.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at DVelante on Twitter or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special cloud virtual event, theCUBE on cloud. This is our continuing editorial series of the most important stories in cloud. We're going to explore the cutting edge most relevant technologies and companies that will impact business and society. We have special guests from Jeff Barr, Michael Liebow, Jerry Chen, Ben Haynes, Michael skulk, Mike Feinstein from AWS all today are presenting the top startups in the AWS ecosystem. This is the AWS showcase of startups. I'm showing with Dave Vellante. Dave great to see you. >> Hey John. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> So awesome day today. We're going to feature a 10 grade companies amplitude, auto grid, big ID, cordial Dremio Kong, multicloud, Reltio stardog wire wheel, companies that we've talked to. We've researched. And they're going to present today from 10 for the rest of the day. What's your thoughts? >> Well, John, a lot of these companies were just sort of last decade, they really, were keyer kicker mode, experimentation mode. Now they're well on their way to hitting escape velocity which is very exciting. And they're hitting tens of millions dollars of ARR, many are planning IPO's and it's just it's really great to see what the cloud has enabled and we're going to dig into that very deeply today. So I'm super excited. >> Before we jump into the keynote (mumbles) our non Huff from AWS up on stage Jeremy is the brains behind this program that we're doing. We're going to do this quarterly. Jeremy great to see you, you're in the global startups program at AWS. Your job is to keep the crops growing, keep the startups going and keep the flow of innovation. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah. Made it to startup showcase day. I'm super excited. And as you mentioned my team the global startup program team, we kind of provide white glove service for VC backed startups and help them with go to market activities. Co-selling with AWS and we've been looking for ways to highlight all the great work they're doing and partnering with you guys has been tremendous. You guys really know how to bring their stories to life. So super excited about all the partner sessions today. >> Well, I really appreciate the vision and working with Amazon this is like truly a bar raiser from theCUBE virtual perspective, using the virtual we can get more content, more flow and great to have you on and bring that the top hot startups around data, data ops. Certainly the most important story in tech is cloud scale with data. You you can't look around and seeing more innovation happening. So I really appreciate the work. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, and don't forget, we're making this a quarterly series. So the next one we've already been working on it. The next one is Wednesday, June 16th. So mark your calendars, but super excited to continue doing these showcases with you guys in the future. >> Thanks for coming on Jeremy. I really appreciate it,. Dave so I want to just quick quickly before we get Jeff up here, Jeff Barr who's a luminary guests for us this week who has been in the industry has been there from the beginning of AWS the role of data, and what's happened in cloud. And we've been watching the evolution of Amazon web services from the beginning, from the startup market to dominate in the enterprise. If you look at the top 10 enterprise companies Amazon wasn't on that list in 2010 they weren't even bringing the top 10 Andy Jassy's keynote at reinvent this past year. Highlighted that fact, I think they were number five or four as vendor in just AWS. So interesting to see that you've been reporting and doing a lot of analysis on the role of data. What's your analysis for these startups and as businesses need to embrace the new technologies and be on the right side of history not part of that old guard, incumbent failed model. >> Well, I think again, if you look back on the early days of cloud, it was really about storage and networking and compute infrastructure. And then we collected all this data and now you're seeing the next generation of innovation and value. We're going to talk to Michael Liebow about this is really if you look at all the value points in the leavers, it's all around data and data is going through a massive change in the way that we think about it, that we talk about it. And you hear that a lot. Obviously you talk about the volumes, the giant volumes but there's something else going on as AWS brings the cloud to the edge. And of course it looks at the data centers, just another edge device, data is getting highly decentralized. And what we're seeing is data getting into the hands of business owners and data product builders. I think we're going to see a new parlance emerge and that's where you're seeing the competitive advantage. And if you look at all the real winners these days in the marketplace especially in the digital with COVID, it all comes back to the data. And we're going to talk about that a lot today. >> One of the things that's coming up in all of our cube interviews, certainly we've seen, I mean we've had a great observation space across all the ecosystems, but the clear thing that's coming out of COVID is speed, agility, scale, and data. If you don't have that data you are going to be a non-player. And I think I heard some industry people talking about the future of how the stock market's going to work and that if you're not truly in market with an AI or machine learning data value play you probably will be shorted on the stock market or delisted. I think people are looking at that as a table stakes competitive advantage item, where if you don't have some sort of data competitive strategy you're going to be either delisted or sold short. And that's, I don't think delisted but the point is this table-stakes Dave. >> Well, I think too, I think the whole language the lingua franca of data is changing. We talk about data as an asset all the time, but you think about it now, what do we do with assets? We protect it, we hide it. And we kind of we don't share it. But then on the other hand, everybody talks about sharing the data and that is a huge trend in the marketplace. And so I think that everybody is really starting to rethink the whole concept of data, what it is, its value and how we think about it, talk about it, share it make it accessible, and at the same time, protect it and make it governed. And I think you're seeing, computational governance and automation really hidden. Couldn't do this without the cloud. I mean, that's the bottom line. >> Well, I'm super excited to have Jeff Barr here from AWS as our special keynote guests. I've been following Jeff's career for a long, long time. He's a luminaries, he's a technical, he's in the industry. He's part of the community, he's been there from the beginning AWS just celebrate its 15th birthday as he was blogging hard. He's been a hardcore blogger. I think Jeff, you had one of the original ping service. If I remember correctly, you were part of the web services foundational kind of present at creation. No better guests to have you Jeff thanks for coming up on our stage. >> John and Dave really happy to be here. >> So I got to ask you, you've been blogging hard for the past decade or so, going hard and your job has evolved from blogging about what's new with Amazon. A couple of building blocks a few services to last reinvent them. You must have put out I don't know how many blog posts did you put out last year at every event? I mean, it must have been a zillion. >> Not quite a zillion. I think I personally wrote somewhere between 20 and 25 including quite a few that I did in the month or so run up to reinvent and it's always intense, but it's always really, really fun. >> So I've got to ask you in the past couple of years, I mean I quoted Andy Jassy's keynote where we highlight in 2010 Amazon wasn't even on the top 10 enterprise players. Now in the top five, you've seen the evolution. What is the big takeaway from your standpoint as you look at the enterprise going from Amazon really dominating the start of a year startups today, you're in the cloud, you're born in the cloud. There's advantage to that. Now enterprises are kind of being reborn in the cloud at the same time, they're building these new use cases rejuvenating themselves and having innovation strategy. What's your takeaway? >> So I love to work with our customers and one of the things that I hear over and over again and especially the last year or two is really the value that they're placing on building a workforce that has really strong cloud skills. They're investing in education. They're focusing on this neat phrase that I learned in Australia called upskilling and saying let's take our set of employees and improve their skill base. I hear companies really saying we're going to go cloud first. We're going to be cloud native. We're going to really embrace it, adopt the full set of cloud services and APIs. And I also see that they're really looking at cloud as part of often a bigger picture. They often use the phrase digital transformation, in Amazon terms we'd say they're thinking big. They're really looking beyond where they are and who they are to what they could be and what they could grow into. Really putting a lot of energy and creativity into thinking forward in that way. >> I wonder Jeff, if you could talk about sort of how people are thinking about the future of cloud if you look at where the spending action is obviously you see it in cloud computing. We've seen that as the move to digital, serverless Lambda is huge. If you look at the data it's off the charts, machine learning and AI also up there containers and of course, automation, AWS leads in all of those. And they portend a different sort of programming model a different way of thinking about how to deploy workloads and applications maybe different than the early days of cloud. What's driving that generally and I'm interested in serverless specifically. And how do you see the next several years folding out? >> Well, they always say that the future is the hardest thing to predict but when I talked to our enterprise customers the two really big things that I see is there's this focus that says we need to really, we're not simply like hosting the website or running the MRP. I'm working with one customer in particular where they say, well, we're going to start on the factory floor all the way up to the boardroom effectively from IOT and sensors on the factory floor to feed all the data into machine learning. So they understand that the factory is running really well to actually doing planning and inventory maintenance to putting it on the website to drive the analytics, to then saying, okay, well how do we know that we're building the right product mix? How do we know that we're getting it out through the right channels? How are our customers doing? So they're really saying there's so many different services available to us in the cloud and they're relatively easy and straightforward to deploy. They really don't think in the old days as we talked about earlier that the old days where these multi-year planning and deployment cycles, now it's much more straightforward. It's like let's see what we can do today. And this week and this month, and from idea to some initial results is a much, much shorter turnaround. So they can iterate a lot more quickly which is just always known to produce better results. >> Well, Jeff and the spirit of the 15th birthday of AWS a lot of services have been built from the original three. I believe it was the core building blocks and there's been a lot of history and it's kind of like there was a key decoupling of compute from storage, those innovations what's the most important architectural change if any has happened or built upon those building blocks with AWS that you could share with companies out there as many people are coming into the cloud not just lifting and shifting and having that innovation but really building cloud native and now hybrid full cloud operations, day two operations. However you want to look at it. That's a big thing. What architecturally has changed that's been innovative from those original building blocks? >> Well, I think that the basic architecture has proven to be very, very resilient. When I wrote about the 15 year birthday of Amazon S3 a couple of weeks ago one thing that I thought was really incredible was the fact that the same APIs that you could have used 15 years ago they all still work. The put, the get, the list, the delete, the permissions management, every last one of those were chosen with extreme care. And so they all still work. So one of the things you think about when you put APIs out there is in Amazon terms we always talk about going through a one-way door and a one way door says, once you do it you're committed for the indefinite future. And so you we're very happy to do that but we take those steps with extreme care. And so those basic building blocks so the original S3 APIs, the original EC2 APIs and the model, all those things really worked. But now they're running at this just insane scale. One thing that blows me away I routinely hear my colleagues talking about petabytes and exabytes, and we throw around trillions and quadrillions like they're pennies. It's kind of amazing. Sometimes when you hear the scale of requests per day or request per month, and the orders of magnitude are you can't map them back to reality anymore. They're simply like literally astronomical. >> If I can just jump in real quick Dave before you ask Jeff, I was watching the Jeff Bezos interview in 1999 that's been going around on LinkedIn in a 60 minutes interview. The interviewer says you are reporting that you can store a gigabyte of customer data from all their purchases. What are you going to do with that? He basically nailed the answer. This is in 99. We're going to use that data to create, that was only a gig. >> Well one of the things that is interesting to me guys, is if you look at again, the early days of cloud, of course I always talked about that in small companies like ours John could have now access to information technology that only big companies could get access to. And now you've seen we just going to talk about it today. All these startups rise up and reach viability. But at the same time, Jeff you've seen big companies get the aha moment on cloud and competition drives urgency and that drives innovation. And so now you see everybody is doing cloud, it's a mandate. And so the expectation is a lot more innovation, experimentation and speed from all ends. It's really exciting to see. >> I know this sounds hackneyed and overused but it really, really still feels just like day one. We're 15 plus years into this. I still wake up every morning, like, wow what is the coolest thing that I'm going to get to learn about and write about today? We have the most amazing customers, one of the things that is great when you're so well connected to your customers, they keep telling you about their dreams, their aspirations, their use cases. And we can just take that and say we can actually build awesome things to help you address those use cases from the ground on up, from building custom hardware things like the nitro system, the graviton to the machine learning inferencing and training chips where we have such insight into customer use cases because we have these awesome customers that we can make these incredible pieces of hardware and software to really address those use cases. >> I'm glad you brought that up. This is another big change, right? You're getting the early days of cloud like, oh, Amazon they're just using off the shelf components. They're not buying these big refrigerator sized disc drives. And now you're developing all this custom Silicon and vertical integration in certain aspects of your business. And that's because workload is demanding. You've got to get more specialized in a lot of cases. >> Indeed they do. And if you watch Peter DeSantis' keynote at re-invent he talked about the fact that we're researching ways to make better cement that actually produces less carbon dioxide. So we're now literally at the from the ground on up level of construction. >> Jeff, I want to get a question from the crowd here. We got, (mumbles) who's a good friend of theCUBE cloud Arate from the beginning. He asked you, he wants to know if you'd like to share Amazon's edge aspirations. He says, he goes, I mean, roadmaps. I go, first of all, he's not going to talk about the roadmaps, but what can you share? I mean, obviously the edge is key. Outpost has been all in the news. You obviously at CloudOps is not a boundary. It's a distributed network. What's your response to-- >> Well, the funny thing is we don't generally have technology roadmaps inside the company. The roadmap is always listen really well to customers not just where they are, but the customers are just so great at saying, this is where we'd like to go. And when we hear edge, the customers don't generally come to us and say edge, they say we need as low latency as possible between where the action happens within our factory floors and our own offices and where we might be able to compute, analyze, store make decisions. And so that's resulted in things like outposts where we can put outposts in their own data center or their own field office, wavelength, where we're working with 5G telecom providers to put computing storage in the carrier hubs of the various 5G providers. Again, with reducing latency, we've been doing things like local zones, where we put zones in an increasing number of cities across the country with the goal of just reducing the average latency between the vast majority of customers and AWS resources. So instead of thinking edge, we really think in terms of how do we make sure that our customers can realize their dreams. >> Staying on the flywheel that AWS has built on ship stuff faster, make things faster, smaller, cheaper, great mission. I want to ask you about the working backwards document. I know it's been getting a lot of public awareness. I've been, that's all I've learned in interviewing Amazon folks. They always work backwards. I always mentioned the customer and all the interviews. So you've got a couple of customer references in there check the box there for you. But working backwards has become kind of a guiding principles, almost like a Harvard Business School case study approach to management. As you guys look at this working backwards and ex Amazonians have written books about it now so people can go look at, it's a really good methodology. Take us back to how you guys work back from the customers because here we're featuring 10 startups. So companies that are out there and Andy has been preaching this to customers. You should think about working backwards because it's so fast. These companies are going into this enterprise market your ecosystem of startups to provide value. What things are you seeing that customers need to think about to work backwards from their customer? How do you see that? 'Cause you've been on the community side, you see the tech side customers have to move fast and work backwards. What are the things that they need to focus on? What's your observation? >> So there's actually a brand new book called "Working Backwards," which I actually learned a lot about our own company from simply reading the book. And I think to me, a principal part of learning backward it's really about humility and being able to be a great listener. So you don't walk into a customer meeting ready to just broadcast the latest and greatest that we've been working on. You walk in and say, I'm here from AWS and I simply want to learn more about who you are, what you're doing. And most importantly, what do you want to do that we're not able to help you with right now? And then once we hear those kinds of things we don't simply write down kind of a bullet item of AWS needs to improve. It's this very active listening process. Tell me a little bit more about this challenge and if we solve it in this way or this way which one's a better fit for your needs. And then a typical AWS launch, we might talk to between 50 and 100 customers in depth to make sure that we have that detailed understanding of what they would like to do. We can't always meet all the needs of these customers but the idea is let's see what is the common base that we can address first. And then once we get that first iteration out there, let's keep listening, let's keep making it better and better and better as quickly. >> A lot of people might poopoo that John but I got to tell you, John, you will remember this the first time we ever met Andy Jassy face-to-face. I was in the room, you were on the speaker phone. We were building an app on AWS at the time. And he was asking you John, for feedback. And he was probing and he pulled out his notebook. He was writing down and he wasn't just superficial questions. He was like, well, why'd you do it that way? And he really wanted to dig. So this is cultural. >> Yeah. I mean, that's the classic Amazon. And that's the best thing about it is that you can go from zero startups zero stage startup to traction. And that was the premise of the cloud. Jeff, I want to get your thoughts and commentary on this love to get your opinion. You've seen this grow from the beginning. And I remember 'cause I've been playing with AWS since the beginning as well. And it says as an entrepreneur I remember my first EC2 instance that didn't even have custom domain support. It was the long URL. You seen the startups and now that we've been 15 years in, you see Dropbox was it just a startup back in the day. I remember these startups that when they were coming they were all born on Amazon, right? These big now unicorns, you were there when these guys were just developers and these gals. So what's it like, I mean, you see just the growth like here's a couple of people with them ideas rubbing nickels together, making magic happen who knows what's going to turn into, you've been there. What's it been like? >> It's been a really unique journey. And to me like the privilege of a lifetime, honestly I've like, you always want to be part of something amazing and you aspire to it and you study hard and you work hard and you always think, okay, somewhere in this universe something really cool is about to happen. And if you're really, really lucky and just a million great pieces of luck like lineup in series, sometimes it actually all works out and you get to be part of something like this when it does you don't always fully appreciate just how awesome it is from the inside, because you're just there just like feeding the machine and you are just doing your job just as fast as you possibly can. And in my case, it was listening to teams and writing blog posts about their launches and sharing them on social media, going out and speaking, you do it, you do it as quickly as possible. You're kind of running your whole life as you're doing that as well. And suddenly you just take a little step back and say, wow we did this kind of amazing thing, but we don't tend to like relax and say, okay, we've done it at Amazon. We get to a certain point. We recognize it. And five minutes later, we're like, okay, let's do the next amazingly good thing. But it's been this just unique privilege and something that I never thought I'd be fortunate enough to be a part of. >> Well, then the last few minutes we have Jeff I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us for this inaugural launch of theCUBE on cloud startup showcase. We are showcasing 10 startups here from your ecosystem. And a lot of people who know AWS for the folks that don't you guys pride yourself on community and ecosystem the global startups program that Jeremy and his team are running. You guys nurture these startups. You want them to be successful. They're vectoring out into the marketplace with growth strategy, helping customers. What's your take on this ecosystem? As customers are out there listening to this what's your advice to them? How should they engage? Why is these sets of start-ups so important? >> Well, I totally love startups and I've spent time in several startups. I've spent other time consulting with them. And I think we're in this incredible time now wheres, it's so easy and straightforward to get those basic resources, to get your compute, to get your storage, to get your databases, to get your machine learning and to take that and to really focus on your customers and to build what you want. And we see this actual exponential growth. And we see these startups that find something to do. They listen to one of their customers, they build that solution. And they're just that feedback cycle gets started. It's really incredible. And I love to see the energy of these startups. I love to hear from them. And at any point if we've got an AWS powered startup and they build something awesome and want to share it with me, I'm all ears. I love to hear about them. Emails, Twitter mentions, whatever I'll just love to hear about all this energy all those great success with our startups. >> Jeff Barr, thank you for coming on. And congratulations, please pass on to Andy Jassy who's going to take over for Jeff Bezos and I saw the big news that he's picking a successor an Amazonian coming back into the fold, Adam. So congratulations on that. >> I will definitely pass on your congratulations to Andy and I worked with Adam in the past when AWS was just getting started and really looking forward to seeing him again, welcoming back and working with him. >> All right, Jeff Barr with AWS guys check out his Twitter and all the social coordinates. He is pumping out all the resources you need to know about if you're a developer or you're an enterprise looking to go to the next level, next generation, modern infrastructure. Thanks Jeff for coming on. Really appreciate it. Our next guests want to bring up stage Michael Liebow from McKinsey cube alumni, who is a great guest who is very timely in his McKinsey role with a paper he and his colleagues put out called cloud's trillion dollar prize up for grabs. Michael, thank you for coming up on stage with Dave and I. >> Hey, great to be here, John. Thank you. >> One of the things I loved about this and why I wanted you to come on was not only is the report awesome. And Dave has got a zillion questions, he want us to drill into. But in 2015, we wrote a story called Andy Jassy trillion dollar baby on Forbes, and then on medium and silken angle where we were the first ones to profile Andy Jassy and talk about this trillion dollar term. And Dave came up with the calculation and people thought we were crazy. What are you talking about trillion dollar opportunity. That was in 2015. You guys have put this together with a serious research report with methodology and you left a lot on the table. I noticed in the report you didn't even have a whole section quantified. So I think just scratching the surface trillion. I'd be a little light, Dave, so let's dig into it, Michael thanks for coming on. >> Well, and I got to say, Michael that John's a trillion dollar baby was revenue. Yours is EBITDA. So we're talking about seven to X, seven to eight X. What we were talking back then, but great job on the report. Fantastic work. >> Thank you. >> So tell us about the report gives a quick lowdown. I got some questions. You guys are unlocking the value drivers but give us a quick overview of this report that people can get for free. So everyone who's registered will get a copy but give us a quick rundown. >> Great. Well the question I think that has bothered all of us for a long time is what's the business value of cloud and how do you quantify it? How do you specify it? Because a lot of people talk around the infrastructure or technical value of cloud but that actually is a big problem because it just scratches the surface of the potential of what cloud can mean. And we focus around the fortune 500. So we had to box us in somewhat. And so focusing on the fortune 500 and fast forwarding to 2030, we put out this number that there's over a trillion dollars worth of value. And we did a lot of analysis using research from a variety of partners, using third-party research, primary research in order to come up with this view. So the business value is two X the technical value of cloud. And as you just pointed out, there is a whole unlock of additional value where organizations can pioneer on some of the newest technologies. And so AWS and others are creating platforms in order to do not just machine learning and analytics and IOT, but also for quantum or mixed reality for blockchain. And so organizations specific around the fortune 500 that aren't leveraging these capabilities today are going to get left behind. And that's the message we were trying to deliver that if you're not doing this and doing this with purpose and with great execution, that others, whether it's others in your industry or upstarts who were motioning into your industry, because as you say cloud democratizes compute, it provides these capabilities and small companies with talent. And that's what the skills can leverage these capabilities ahead of slow moving incumbents. And I think that was the critical component. So that gives you the framework. We can deep dive based on your questions. >> Well before we get into the deep dive, I want to ask you we have startups being showcased here as part of the, it will showcase, they're coming out of the ecosystem. They have a lot of certification from Amazon and they're secure, which is a big issue. Enterprises that you guys talk to McKinsey speaks directly to I call the boardroom CXOs, the top executives. Are they realizing that the scale and timing of this agility window? I mean, you want to go through these key areas that you would break out but as startups become more relevant the boardrooms that are making these big decisions realize that their businesses are up for grabs. Do they realize that all this wealth is shifting? And do they see the role of startups helping them? How did you guys come out of them and report on that piece? >> Well in terms of the whole notion, we came up with this framework which looked at the opportunity. We talked about it in terms of three dimensions, rejuvenate, innovate and pioneer. And so from the standpoint of a board they're more than focused on not just efficiency and cost reduction basically tied to nation, but innovation tied to analytics tied to machine learning, tied to IOT, tied to two key attributes of cloud speed and scale. And one of the things that we did in the paper was leverage case examples from across industry, across-region there's 17 different case examples. My three favorite is one is Moderna. So software for life couldn't have delivered the vaccine as fast as they did without cloud. My second example was Goldman Sachs got into consumer banking is the platform behind the Apple card couldn't have done it without leveraging cloud. And the third example, particularly in early days of the pandemic was Zoom that added five to 6,000 servers a night in order to scale to meet the demand. And so all three of those examples, plus the other 14 just indicate in business terms what the potential is and to convince boards and the C-suite that if you're not doing this, and we have some recommendations in terms of what CEOs should do in order to leverage this but to really take advantage of those capabilities. >> Michael, I think it's important to point out the approach at sometimes it gets a little wonky on the methodology but having done a lot of these types of studies and observed there's a lot of superficial studies out there, a lot of times people will do, they'll go I'll talk to a customer. What kind of ROI did you get? And boom, that's the value study. You took a different approach. You have benchmark data, you talked to a lot of companies. You obviously have a lot of financial data. You use some third-party data, you built models, you bounded it. And ultimately when you do these things you have to ascribe a value contribution to the cloud component because fortunate 500 companies are going to grow even if there were no cloud. And the way you did that is again, you talk to people you model things, and it's a very detailed study. And I think it's worth pointing out that this was not just hey what'd you get from going to cloud before and after. This was a very detailed deep dive with really a lot of good background work going into it. >> Yeah, we're very fortunate to have the McKinsey Global Institute which has done extensive studies in these areas. So there was a base of knowledge that we could leverage. In fact, we looked at over 700 use cases across 19 industries in order to unpack the value that cloud contributed to those use cases. And so getting down to that level of specificity really, I think helps build it from the bottom up and then using cloud measures or KPIs that indicate the value like how much faster you can deploy, how much faster you can develop. So these are things that help to kind of inform the overall model. >> Yeah. Again, having done hundreds, if not thousands of these types of things, when you start talking to people the patterns emerge, I want to ask you there's an exhibit tool in here, which is right on those use cases, retail, healthcare, high-tech oil and gas banking, and a lot of examples. And I went through them all and virtually every single one of them from a value contribution standpoint the unlocking value came down to data large data sets, document analysis, converting sentiment analysis, analytics. I mean, it really does come down to the data. And I wonder if you could comment on that and why is it that cloud is enabled that? >> Well, it goes back to scale. And I think the word that I would use would be data gravity because we're talking about massive amounts of data. So as you go through those kind of three dimensions in terms of rejuvenation one of the things you can do as you optimize and clarify and build better resiliency the thing that comes into play I think is to have clean data and data that's available in multiple places that you can create an underlying platform in order to leverage the services, the capabilities around, building out that structure. >> And then if I may, so you had this again I want to stress as EBITDA. It's not a revenue and it's the EBITDA potential as a result of leveraging cloud. And you listed a number of industries. And I wonder if you could comment on the patterns that you saw. I mean, it doesn't seem to be as simple as Negroponte bits versus Adam's in terms of your ability to unlock value. What are the patterns that you saw there and why are the ones that have so much potential why are they at the top of the list? >> Well, I mean, they're ranked based on impact. So the five greatest industries and again, aligned by the fortune 500. So it's interesting when you start to unpack it that way high-tech oil, gas, retail, healthcare, insurance and banking, right? Top. And so we did look at the different solutions that were in that, tried to decipher what was fully unlocked by cloud, what was accelerated by cloud and what was perhaps in this timeframe remaining on premise. And so we kind of step by step, expert by expert, use case by use case deciphered of the 700, how that applied. >> So how should practitioners within organizations business but how should they use this data? What would you recommend, in terms of how they think about it, how they apply it to their business, how they communicate? >> Well, I think clearly what came out was a set of best practices for what organizations that were leveraging cloud and getting the kind of business return, three things stood out, execution, experience and excellence. And so for under execution it's not just the transaction, you're not just buying cloud you're changing their operating model. And so if the organization isn't kind of retooling the model, the processes, the workflows in order to support creating the roles then they aren't going to be able, they aren't going to be successful. In terms of experience, that's all about hands-on. And so you have to dive in, you have to start you have to apply yourself, you have to gain that applied knowledge. And so if you're not gaining that experience, you're not going to move forward. And then in terms of excellence, and it was mentioned earlier by Jeff re-skilling, up-skilling, if you're not committed to your workforce and pushing certification, pushing training in order to really evolve your workforce or your ways of working you're not going to leverage cloud. So those three best practices really came up on top in terms of what a mature cloud adopter looks like. >> That's awesome. Michael, thank you for coming on. Really appreciate it. Last question I have for you as we wrap up this trillion dollar segment upon intended is the cloud mindset. You mentioned partnering and scaling up. The role of the enterprise and business is to partner with the technologists, not just the technologies but the companies talk about this cloud native mindset because it's not just lift and shift and run apps. And I have an IT optimization issue. It's about innovating next gen solutions and you're seeing it in public sector. You're seeing it in the commercial sector, all areas where the relationship with partners and companies and startups in particular, this is the startup showcase. These are startups are more relevant than ever as the tide is shifting to a new generation of companies. >> Yeah, so a lot of think about an engine. A lot of things have to work in order to produce the kind of results that we're talking about. Brad, you're more than fair share or unfair share of trillion dollars. And so CEOs need to lead this in bold fashion. Number one, they need to craft the moonshot or the Marshot. They have to set that goal, that aspiration. And it has to be a stretch goal for the organization because cloud is the only way to enable that achievement of that aspiration that's number one, number two, they really need a hardheaded economic case. It has to be defined in terms of what the expectation is going to be. So it's not loose. It's very, very well and defined. And in some respects time box what can we do here? I would say the cloud data, your organization has to move in an agile fashion training DevOps, and the fourth thing, and this is where the startups come in is the cloud platform. There has to be an underlying platform that supports those aspirations. It's an art, it's not just an architecture. It's a living, breathing live service with integrations, with standardization, with self service that enables this whole program. >> Awesome, Michael, thank you for coming on and sharing the McKinsey perspective. The report, the clouds trillion dollar prize is up for grabs. Everyone who's registered for this event will get a copy. We will appreciate it's also on the website. We'll make sure everyone gets a copy. Thanks for coming, I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Thanks, Michael. >> Okay, Dave, big discussion there. Trillion dollar baby. That's the cloud. That's Jassy. Now he's going to be the CEO of AWS. They have a new CEO they announced. So that's going to be good for Amazon's kind of got clarity on the succession to Jassy, trusted soldier. The ecosystem is big for Amazon. Unlike Microsoft, they have the different view, right? They have some apps, but they're cultivating as many startups and enterprises as possible in the cloud. And no better reason to change gears here and get a venture capitalist in here. And a friend of theCUBE, Jerry Chen let's bring them up on stage. Jerry Chen, great to see you partner at Greylock making all the big investments. Good to see you >> John hey, Dave it's great to be here with you guys. Happy marks.Can you see that? >> Hey Jerry, good to see you man >> So Jerry, our first inaugural AWS startup showcase we'll be doing these quarterly and we're going to be featuring the best of the best, you're investing in all the hot startups. We've been tracking your careers from the beginning. You're a good friend of theCUBE. Always got great commentary. Why are startups more important than ever before? Because in the old days we've talked about theCUBE before startups had to go through certain certifications and you've got tire kicking, you got to go through IT. It's like going through security at the airport, take your shoes off, put your belt on thing. I mean, all kinds of things now different. The world has changed. What's your take? >> I think startups have always been a great way for experimentation, right? It's either new technologies, new business models, new markets they can move faster, the experiment, and a lot of startups don't work, unfortunately, but a lot of them turned to be multi-billion dollar companies. I thing startup is more important because as we come out COVID and economy is recovery is a great way for individuals, engineers, for companies for different markets to try different things out. And I think startups are running multiple experiments at the same time across the globe trying to figure how to do things better, faster, cheaper. >> And McKinsey points out this use case of rejuvenate, which is essentially retool pivot essentially get your costs down or and the next innovation here where there's Tam there's trillion dollars on unlock value and where the bulk of it is is the innovation, the new use cases and existing new use cases. This is where the enterprises really have an opportunity. Could you share your thoughts as you invest in the startups to attack these new waves these new areas where it may not look the same as before, what's your assessment of this kind of innovation, these new use cases? >> I think we talked last time about kind of changing the COVID the past year and there's been acceleration of things like how we work, education, medicine all these things are going online. So I think that's very clear. The first wave of innovation is like, hey things we didn't think we could be possible, like working remotely, e-commerce everywhere, telemedicine, tele-education, that's happening. I think the second order of fact now is okay as enterprises realize that this is the new reality everything is digital, everything is in the cloud and everything's going to be more kind of electronic relation with the customers. I think that we're rethinking what does it mean to be a business? What does it mean to be a bank? What does it mean to be a car company or an energy company? What does it mean to be a retailer? Right? So I think the rethinking that brands are now global, brands are all online. And they now have relationships with the customers directly. So I think if you are a business now, you have to re experiment or rethink about your business model. If you thought you were a Nike selling shoes to the retailers, like half of Nike's revenue is now digital right all online. So instead of selling sneakers through stores they're now a direct to consumer brand. And so I think every business is going to rethink about what the AR. Airbnb is like are they in the travel business or the experience business, right? Airlines, what business are they in? >> Yeah, theCUBE we're direct to consumer virtual totally opened up our business model. Dave, the cloud premise is interesting now. I mean, let's reset this where we are, right? Andy Jassy always talks about the old guard, new guard. Okay we've been there done that, even though they still have a lot of Oracle inside AWS which we were joking the other day, but this new modern era coming out of COVID Jerry brings this up. These startups are going to be relevant take territory down in the enterprises as new things develop. What's your premise of the cloud and AWS prospect? >> Well, so Jerry, I want to to ask you. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> The other night, last Thursday, I think we were in Clubhouse. Ben Horowitz was on and Martine Casado was laying out this sort of premise about cloud startups saying basically at some point they're going to have to repatriate because of the Amazon VIG. I mean, I'm paraphrasing and I guess the premise was that there's this variable cost that grows as you scale but I kind of shook my head and I went back. You saw, I put it out on Twitter a clip that we had the a couple of years ago and I don't think, I certainly didn't see it that way. Maybe I'm getting it wrong but what's your take on that? I just don't see a snowflake ever saying, okay we're going to go build our own data center or we're going to repatriate 'cause they're going to end up like service now and have this high cost infrastructure. What do you think? >> Yeah, look, I think Martin is an old friend from VMware and he's brilliant. He has placed a lot of insights. There is some insights around, at some point a scale, use of startup can probably run things more cost-effectively in your own data center, right? But I think that's fewer companies more the vast majority, right? At some point, but number two, to your point, Dave going on premise versus your own data center are two different things. So on premise in a customer's environment versus your own data center are two different worlds. So at some point some scale, a lot of the large SaaS companies run their own data centers that makes sense, Facebook and Google they're at scale, they run their own data centers, going on premise or customer's environment like a fortune 100 bank or something like that. That's a different story. There are reasons to do that around compliance or data gravity, Dave, but Amazon's costs, I don't think is a legitimate reason. Like if price is an issue that could be solved much faster than architectural decisions or tech stacks, right? Once you're on the cloud I think the thesis, the conversation we had like a year ago was the way you build apps are very different in the cloud and the way built apps on premise, right? You have assume storage, networking and compute elasticity that's independent each other. You don't really get that in a customer's data center or their own environment even with all the new technologies. So you can't really go from cloud back to on-premise because the way you build your apps look very, very different. So I would say for sure at some scale run your own data center that's why the hyperscale guys do that. On-premise for customers, data gravity, compliance governance, great reasons to go on premise but for vast majority of startups and vast majority of customers, the network effects you get for being in the cloud, the network effects you get from having everything in this alas cloud service I think outweighs any of the costs. >> I couldn't agree more and that's where the data is, at the way I look at it is your technology spend is going to be some percentage of revenue and it's going to be generally flat over time and you're going to have to manage it whether it's in the cloud or it's on prem John. >> Yeah, we had a quote on theCUBE on the conscious that had Jerry I want to get your reaction to this. The executive said, if you don't have an AI strategy built into your value proposition you will be shorted as a stock on wall street. And I even went further. So you'll probably be delisted cause you won't be performing with a tongue in cheek comment. But the reality is that that's indicating that everyone has to have AI in their thing. Mainly as a reality, what's your take on that? I know you've got a lot of investments in this area as AI becomes beyond fashion and becomes table stakes. Where are we on that spectrum? And how does that impact business and society as that becomes a key part of the stack and application stack? >> Yeah, I think John you've seen AI machine learning turn out to be some kind of novelty thing that a bunch of CS professors working on years ago to a funnel piece of every application. So I would say the statement of the sentiment's directionally correct that 20 years ago if you didn't have a web strategy or a website as a company, your company be sure it, right? If you didn't have kind of a internet website, you weren't real company. Likewise, if you don't use AI now to power your applications or machine learning in some form or fashion for sure you'd be at a competitive disadvantage to everyone else. And just like if you're not using software intelligently or the cloud intelligently your stock as a company is going to underperform the rest of the market. And the cloud guys on the startups that we're backing are making AI so accessible and so easy for developers today that it's really easy to use some level of machine learning, any applications, if you're not doing that it's like not having a website in 1999. >> Yeah. So let's get into that whole operation side. So what would you be your advice to the enterprises that are watching and people who are making decisions on architecture and how they roll out their business model or value proposition? How should they look at AI and operations? I mean big theme is day two operations. You've got IT service management, all these things are being disrupted. What's the operational impact to this? What's your view on that? >> So I think two things, one thing that you and Dave both talked about operation is the key, I mean, operations is not just the guts of the business but the actual people running the business, right? And so we forget that one of the values are going to cloud, one of the values of giving these services is you not only have a different technology stack, all the bits, you have a different human stack meaning the people running your cloud, running your data center are now effectively outsource to Amazon, Google or Azure, right? Which I think a big part of the Amazon VIG as Dave said, is so eloquently on Twitter per se, right? You're really paying for those folks like carry pagers. Now take that to the next level. Operations is human beings, people intelligently trying to figure out how my business can run better, right? And that's either accelerate revenue or decrease costs, improve my margin. So if you want to use machine learning, I would say there's two areas to think about. One is how I think about customers, right? So we both talked about the amount of data being generated around enterprise individuals. So intelligently use machine learning how to serve my customers better, then number two AI and machine learning internally how to run my business better, right? Can I take cost out? Can I optimize supply chain? Can I use my warehouses more efficiently my logistics more efficiently? So one is how do I use AI learning to be a more familiar more customer oriented and number two, how can I take cost out be more efficient as a company, by writing AI internally from finance ops, et cetera. >> So, Jerry, I wonder if I could ask you a little different subject but a question on tactical valuations how coupled or decoupled are private company valuations from the public markets. You're seeing the public markets everybody's freaking out 'cause interest rates are going to go up. So the future value of cash flows are lower. Does that trickle in quickly into the private markets? Or is it a whole different dynamic? >> If I could weigh in poly for some private markets Dave I would have a different job than I do today. I think the reality is in the long run it doesn't matter as much as long as you're investing early. Now that's an easy answer say, boats have to fall away. Yes, interest rates will probably go up because they're hard to go lower, right? They're effectively almost zero to negative right now in most of the developed world, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to trade my Twilio shares or Salesforce shares for like a 1% yield bond, right? I'm going to hold the high growth tech stocks because regardless of what interest rates you're giving me 1%, 2%, 3%, I'm still going to beat that with a top tech performers, Snowflake, Twilio Hashi Corp, bunch of the private companies out there I think are elastic. They're going to have a great 10, 15 year run. And in the Greylock portfolio like the things we're investing in, I'm super bullish on from Roxanne to Kronos fear, to true era in the AI space. I think in the long run, next 10 years these things will outperform the market that said, right valuation prices have gone up and down and they will in our careers, they have. In the careers we've been covering tech. So I do believe that they're high now they'll come down for sure. Will they go back up again? Definitely, right? But as long as you're betting these macro waves I think we're all be good. >> Great answer as usual. Would you trade them for NFTs Jerry? >> That $69 million people piece of artwork look, I mean, I'm a longterm believer in kind of IP and property rights in the blockchain, right? And I'm waiting for theCUBE to mint this video as the NFT, when we do this guys, we'll mint this video's NFT and see how much people pay for the original Dave, John, Jerry (mumbles). >> Hey, you know what? We can probably get some good bang for that. Hey it's all about this next Jerry. Jerry, great to have you on, final question as we got this one minute left what's your advice to the people out there that either engaging with these innovative startups, we're going to feature startups every quarter from the in the Amazon ecosystem, they are going to be adding value. What's the advice to the enterprises that are engaging startups, the approach, posture, what's your advice. >> Yeah, when I talk to CIOs and large enterprises, they often are wary like, hey, when do I engage a startup? How, what businesses, and is it risky or low risk? Now I say, just like any career managing, just like any investment you're making in a big, small company you should have a budget or set of projects. And then I want to say to a CIO, Hey, every priority on your wish list, go use the startup, right? I mean, that would be 10 for 10 projects, 10 startups. Probably too much risk for a lot of tech companies. But we would say to most CIOs and executives, look, there are strategic initiatives in your business that you want to accelerate. And I would take the time to invest in one or two startups each quarter selectively, right? Use the time, focus on fewer startups, go deep with them because we can actually be game changers in terms of inflecting your business. And what I mean by that is don't pick too many startups because you can't devote the time, but don't pick zero startups because you're going to be left behind, right? It'd be shorted as a stock by the John, Dave and Jerry hedge fund apparently but pick a handful of startups in your strategic areas, in your top tier three things. These really, these could be accelerators for your career. >> I have to ask you real quick while you're here. We've got a couple minutes left on startups that are building apps. I've seen DevOps and the infrastructure as code movement has gone full mainstream. That's really what we're living right now. That kind of first-generation commercialization of DevOps. Now DevSecOps, what are the trends that you've seen that's different from say a couple of years ago now that we're in COVID around how apps are being built? Is it security? Is it the data integration? What can you share as a key app stack impact (mumbles)? >> Yeah, I think there're two things one is security is always been a top priority. I think that was the only going forward period, right? Security for sure. That's why you said that DevOps, DevSecOps like security is often overlooked but I think increasingly could be more important. The second thing is I think we talked about Dave mentioned earlier just the data around customers, the data on premise or the cloud, and there's a ton of data out there. We keep saying this over and over again like data's new oil, et cetera. It's evolving and not changing because the way we're using data finding data is changing in terms of sources of data we're using and discovering and also speed of data, right? In terms of going from Basser real-time is changing. The speed of business has changed to go faster. So I think these are all things that we're thinking about. So both security and how you use your data faster and better. >> Yeah you were in theCUBE a number of years ago and I remember either John or I asked you about you think Amazon is going to go up the stack and start developing applications and your answer was you know what I think no, I think they're going to enable a new set of disruptors to come in and disrupt the SaaS world. And I think that's largely playing out. And one of the interesting things about Adam Selipsky appointment to the CEO, he comes from Tableau. He really helped Tableau go from that sort of old guard model to an ARR model obviously executed a great exit to Salesforce. And now I see companies like Salesforce and service now and Workday is potential for your scenario to really play out. They've got in my view anyway, outdated pricing models. You look at what's how Snowflake's pricing and the consumption basis, same with Datadog same with Stripe and new startups seem to really be a leading into the consumption-based pricing model. So how do you, what are your thoughts on that? And maybe thoughts on Adam and thoughts on SaaS disruption? >> I think my thesis still holds that. I don't think Selipsky Adam is going to go into the app space aggressively. I think Amazon wants to enable next generation apps and seeing some of the new service that they're doing is they're kind of deconstructing apps, right? They're deconstructing the parts of CRM or e-commerce and they're offering them as services. So I think you're going to see Amazon continue to say, hey we're the core parts of an app like payments or custom prediction or some machine learning things around applications you want to buy bacon, they're going to turn those things to the API and sell those services, right? So you look at things like Stripe, Twilio which are two of the biggest companies out there. They're not apps themselves, they're the components of the app, right? Either e-commerce or messaging communications. So I can see Amazon going down that path. I think Adam is a great choice, right? He was a longterm early AWS exact from the early days latent to your point Dave really helped take Tableau into kind of a cloud business acquired by Salesforce work there for a few years under Benioff the guy who created quote unquote cloud and now him coming home again and back to Amazon. So I think it'll be exciting to see how Adam runs the business. >> And John I think he's the perfect choice because he's got operations chops and he knows how to... He can help the startups disrupt. >> Yeah, and he's been a trusted soldier of Jassy from the beginning, he knows the DNA. He's got some CEO outside experience. I think that was the key he knows. And he's not going to give up Amazon speed, but this is baby, right? So he's got him in charge and he's a trusted lieutenant. >> You think. Yeah, you think he's going to hold the mic? >> Yeah. We got to go. Jerry Chen thank you very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on our inaugural cube on cloud AWS startup event. Now for the 10 startups, enjoy the sessions at 12:30 Pacific, we're going to have the closing keynote. I'm John Ferry for Dave Vellante and our special guests, thanks for watching and enjoy the rest of the day and the 10 startups. (upbeat music)

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Everyone welcome back to the cubes Coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 virtual. This is the Cube virtual. I'm John for your host this year. We're not in person. We're doing remote interviews because of the pandemic. The whole events virtual over three weeks for this week would be having a lot of coverage in and out of what's going on with the news. All that stuff here happening on the Cube Our next guest is a featured segment. Brown Venkatesh, VP of Engineering at Cloudera. Welcome back to the Cube Cube Alumni. Last time you were on was 2018 when we had physical events. Great to see you, >>like good to be here. Thank you. >>S O. You know, Cloudera obviously modernized up with Horton works. That comedy has been for a while, always pioneering this abstraction layer originally with a dupe. Now, with data, all those right calls were made. Data is hot is a big part of reinvent. That's a big part of the theme, you know, machine learning ai ai edge edge edge data lakes on steroids, higher level services in the cloud. This is the focus of reinvents. The big conversations Give us an update on cloud eras. Data platform. What's that? What's new? >>Absolutely. You are really speaking of languages. Read with the whole, uh, data lake architecture that you alluded to. It's uploaded. This mission has always been about, you know, we want to manage how the world's data that what this means for our customers is being ableto aggregate data from lots of different sources into central places that we call data lakes on. Then apply lots of different types of passing to it to direct business value that would cdp with Florida data platform. What we have essentially done is take those same three core tenants around data legs multifunctional takes on data stewardship of management to add on a bunch off cloud native capabilities to it. So this was fundamentally I'm talking about things like disaggregated storage and compute by being able to now not only take advantage of H d efs, but also had a pretty deep, fundamental level club storage. But this is the form factor that's really, really good for our customers. Toe or to operate that from a TCO perspective, if you're going to manage hundreds of terabytes of data like like a lot of a lot of customers do it. The second key piece that we've done with CDP has to do with us embracing containers and communities in a big way on primer heritages around which machines and clusters and things of that nature. But in the cloud context, especially in the context, off managed community services like Amazon CKs, this Lexus spin apart traditional workloads, Sequels, park machine learning and so on. In the context of these Cuban exiles containerized environments which lets customers spin these up in seconds. They're supposed to, you know, tens of minutes on as they're passing, needs grow and shrink. They can actually scale much, much faster up and down to, you know, to make sure that they have the right cost effective footprint for their compute e >>go ahead third piece. >>But the turkey piece of all of this right is to say, along with like cloud native orchestration and cloud NATO storage is that we've embraced this notion of making sure that you actually have a robust data discovery story around it. so increasingly the data sets that you create on top off a platform like CDP. There themselves have value in other use cases that you want to make sure that these data sets are properly replicated. They're probably secure the public government. So you can go and analyze where the data set came from. Capabilities of security and provenance are increasingly more important to our customers. So with CDP, we have a really good story around that data stewardship aspect, which is increasingly important as you as you get into the cloud. And you have these sophisticated sharing scenarios. The >>you know, Clotaire has always had and Horton works. Both companies had strong technical chops. It's well document. Certainly the queues been toe all the events and covered both companies since the inception of 10 years ago. A big data. But now we're in cloud. Big data, fast data, little data, all data. This is what the cloud brings. So I want to get your thoughts on the number one focus of problem solving around cloud. I gotta migrate. Or do I move to the cloud immediately and be born there? Now we know the hyper scale is born in the cloud companies like the Dropbox in the world. They were born in the cloud and all the benefits and goodness came with that. But I'm gonna be pivoting. I'm a company at a co vid with a growth strategy. Lift and shift. Okay, that was It's over. Now that's the low hanging fruit that's use cases kind of done. Been there, done that. Is it migration or born in the cloud? Take us through your thoughts on what does the company do right now? >>E thinks it's a really good question. If you think off, you know where our customers are in their own data journey, right? So increasingly. You know, a few years ago, I would say it was about operating infrastructure. That's where their head was at, right? Increasingly, I think for them it's about deriving value from the data assets that they already have on. This typically means in a combining data from different sources the structure data, some restructure data, transactional data, non transactional, data event oriented data messaging data. They wanna bring all of that and analyze that to make sure that they can actually identify ways toe monetize it in ways that they had not thought about when they actually stored the data originally, right? So I think it's this drive towards increasing monetization of data assets that's driving the new use cases on the platform. Traditionally, it used to be about, you know, sequel analysts who are, if you are like a data scientist using a party's park. So it was sort of this one function that you would focus on with the data. But increasingly, we're seeing these air about, you know, these air collaborative use cases where you wanna have a little bit of sequel, a little bit of machine learning, a little bit off, you know, potentially real time streaming or even things like Apache fling that you're gonna use to actually analyze the data eso when this kind of an environment. But we see that the data that's being generated on Prem is extremely relevant to the use case, but the speed at which they want to deploy the use case. They really want to make sure that they can take advantage of the clouds, agility and infinite capacity to go do that. So it's it's really the answer is it's complicated. It's not so much about you know I'm gonna move my data platform that I used to run the old way from here to there. But it's about I got this use case and I got to stand this up in six weeks, right in the middle of the pandemic on how do I go do that on the data that has to come from my existing line of business systems. I'm not gonna move those over, but I want to make sure that I can analyze the data from their in some cohesive Does that make sense? >>Totally makes sense. And I think just to kind of bring that back for the folks watching. And I remember when CDP was launching the thes data platforms, it really was to replace the data warehouse is the old antiquated way of doing things. But it was interesting. It wasn't just about competing at that old category. It was a new category. So, yeah, you had to have some tooling some sequel, you know, to wrangle data and have some prefabricated, you know, data fenced out somewhere in some warehouse. But the value was the new use cases of data where you never know. You don't know where it's going to come until it comes right, because if you make it addressable, that was the idea of the data platform and data Lakes and then having higher level services. So s so to me. That's, I think, one distinction kind of new category coexisting and disrupting an old category data warehousing. Always bought into that. You know, there's some technical things spark Do all these elements on mechanisms underneath. That's just evolution. But income in incomes cloud on. I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that's coming out of all my interviews is speed, speed, speed, deploying high, high, large scale at very large speed. This is the modern application thinking okay to make that work, you gotta have the data fabric underneath. This has always been kind of the dream scenario, So it's kind of playing out. So one Do you believe in that? And to what is the relationship between Cloudera and AWS? Because I think that kind of interestingly points to this one piece. >>Absolutely. So I think that yeah, from my perspective, this is what we call the shared data experience that's central to see PP like the idea is that, you know, data that is generated by the business in one use case is relevant and valid in another use case that is central to how we see companies leveraging data or the second order monetization that they're after, Right? So I think this is where getting out off a traditional data warehouse like data side of context, being able to analyze all of the data that you have, I think is really, really important for many of our customers. For example, many of them increasingly hold what they call this like data hackathons right where they're looking at can be answered. This new question from all the data that we have that is, that is a type of use case that's really hard to enable unless you have a very cohesive, very homogeneous view off all of your data. When it comes to the cloud partners, right, Increasingly, we see that the cloud native services, especially for the core storage, compute and security services are extremely robust that they give us, you know, the scale and that's really truly unparalled in terms of how much data we can address, how quickly we can actually get access to compute on demand when we need it. And we can do all of this with, like, a very, very mature security and governance fabric that you can fit into. So we see that, you know, technologies like s three, for example, have come a long way on along the journey with Amazon on this over the last 78 years. But we both learned how to operate our work clothes. When you're running a terabytes scale, right, you really have to pay attention to matters like scale out and consistency and parallelism and all of these things. These matters significantly right? And it's taken a certain maturity curve that you have to go through to get there. The last part of that is that because the TCO is so optimized with the customer to operate this without any ops on their side, they could just start consuming data, even if it's a terabyte of data. So this means that now we have to have the smarts in the processing engines to think about things like cashing, for example very, very differently because the way you cash data that Zinn hedge defense is very different from how you would do that in the context of his three are similarly, the way you think about consistency and metadata is very, very different at that layer. But we made sure that we can abstract these differences out at the platform layer so that as an as it is an application consumer, you really get the same experience, whether you're running these analytics on clam or whether you're running them in the cloud. And that's really central to how I see this space evolving is that we want to meet the customer where they are, rather than forcing them to change the way they work because off the platform that they're simple. >>So could you take them in to explain some of the integrations with AWS and some customer examples? Because, um, you know, first of all, cost is a big concern on everyone's mind because, you know, it's still lower costs and higher value with the cloud anyway. But it could get away from you. So you know, you're constantly petabytes of scale. There's a lot of data moving around. That's one thing to integration with higher level services. Can you give where does explain how Claudia integration with Amazon? What's the relation of customer wants to know. Hey, you guys, you know, partnering, explain the partnership. And what does it mean for me? >>Absolutely. So the way we look at the partnership hit that one person and ghetto. It's really a four layer cake because the lowest layer is the core infrastructure services. We talked about storage and computing on security, and I am so on and so forth. So that layer is a very robust integration that goes back a few years. The next layer up from that has to do with increasingly, you know, as our customers use analytic experiences from Florida on, they want to combine that with data that's actually in the AWS compute experiences like the red Ship, for example. That's what the analytics layer uploaded the data warehouse offering and how that interrupts would be other services in Amazon that could be relevant. This is common file formats that open source well form it really help us in this context to make sure that they have a very strong level of interest at the analytics there. The third layer up from that has to do with consumption. Like if you're gonna bring an analyst on board. You want to make sure that all of their sequel, like analyst experiences, notebooks, things of that nature that's really strong. And club out of the third layer on the highest layer is really around. Data sharing. That's as aws new and technologies like that become more prevalent. Now. Customers want to make sure that they can have these data states that they have in the different clouds, actually in a robbery. So we provide ways for them, toe browse and search data, regardless of whether that data is on AWS or on traffic. And so that's how the fourth layer in the stack, the vertical slice running through all of these, that we have a really strong business relationship with them both on the on the on the commercial market side as well as in AWS marketplace. Right? So we can actually by having cdp be a part of it of the US marketplace. This means that if you have an enterprise agreement with with Amazon, you can actually pay for CDP toe the credit sexuality purchased. This is a very, very tight relationship that's designed again for these large scale speeds and feeds. Can the customer >>so just to get this right. So if I love the four layer cake icings the success of CDP love that birthday candles can be on top to when you're successful. But you're saying that you're going to mark with Amazon two ways marketplace listing and then also jointly with their enterprise field programs. That right? You say because they have this program you can bundle into the blanket pos or Pio processes That right can explain that again. >>S so if you think this'll states, if you're talking about are significant. So we want to make sure that, you know, we're really aligned with them in terms off our cloud migration strategy in terms of how the customer actually execute to what is a fairly you know, it's a complex deployment to deploy a large multiple functions did and existed takes time, right, So we're gonna make sure that we navigate this together jointly with the U. S. To make sure that from a best practices standpoint, for example, were very well aligned from a cost standpoint, you know what we're telling the customer architecturally is very rather nine. That's that's where I think really the heart of the engineering relationship between the two companies without. >>So if you want Cloudera on Amazon, you just go in. You can click to buy. Or if you got to deal with Amazon in terms of global marketplace deal, which they have been rolling out, I could buy there too, Right? All right, well, run. Thanks for the update and insight. Um, love the four layer cake love gets. See the modernization of the data platform from Cloudera. And congratulations on all the hard work you guys been doing with AWS. >>Thank you so much. Appreciate. >>Okay, good to see you. Okay, I'm John for your hearing. The Cube for Cube virtual for eight of us. Reinvent 2020 virtual. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, It's theCUBE, with digital coverage of VMworld 2020, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of VMworld 2020, our 11th year covering VMworld, the global experience, so we get to be able to pull in the community from around the globe. Happy to welcome back to the program one of our CUBE alumni, but a new role. Jill Stelfox, she is the chairman and CEO at Panzura. Jill, so nice to see you. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, Jill, so first, before we get into kind of what you're bringing to Panzura and the direction, we're here at VMworld. Panzura is a longtime partner of VMware. Why don't you just give us the update as to VMware and Panzura and how you support customers together? >> Yeah, so most of our deployments of Panzura actually run on VMware, whether it's on-prem or at the closest cloud location. So we work really closely in our hundreds and hundreds of deployments across the world. >> Wonderful, and for most of our audience, if they're not familiar with Panzura, of course, it's very high performance, really look at that cloud file system. Is that how it's positioned on your website? Bring us as to what brought you to Panzura, and what that means to the organization now that you're chairman and CEO. >> Yeah, so about five months ago now, we purchased the company from the current set of investors. We saw a really interesting technology here, and the ability to grow quite quickly, which, honestly, it's come true in the last few months, and Panzura is more than just a file system. It is a piece of fabric that allows you to put files in a really high performance way into the cloud, and collaborate across the globe, and who knew that five months ago when we bought the company, literally we bought the company a few days before California closed for COVID, and so this is the moment where file storage and collaboration is absolutely key, so great timing for us from that perspective. >> Yeah, absolutely. We've had so many conversations with companies as they have to really move fast, to be able to exist in the, I guess we call it the new abnormal, Jill. Help us maybe, if you've got a customer example of what's bringing the customers to Panzura, especially right now when there's acceleration of cloud, it's the theme we see, and the keynote here at VMworld and beyond, but what is it that differentiates Panzura and brings customers to you? >> Yeah, so we work, for example, with one of the largest banks in the world that took a legacy wire transfer application and put it out into the cloud, because they had no way of managing both the volume of transactions and the breadth worldwide that they needed in order to manage that application, and it would have taken years to rewrite that in a cloud native app, and putting it on Panzura works great. We also work with architecture firms, some of the largest in the world, where they're able to collaborate on building buildings all from home, which is pretty amazing, and then I would say the last, and maybe the coolest, is what we do in entertainment. We work with a large majority of the gaming companies, and they use Panzura to run all their files and collaborate on those really large games where they can code across the world, and then in the case, we just announced a partnership with the New Orleans Saints, where we're taking all their game day footage, and making it available to all their constituents quite quickly, and the big difference in all of those examples from other solutions, and what we do at Panzura, is that in other solutions, you have to duplicate that data across the world. We don't. We provide one single file, one single source, that's kept securely all the time and available all the time. >> Jill, help us understand how this fits into the cloud environment. So we talked about your VMware connection. I know Panzura is in the AWS marketplace, lots of discussions, AWS, Azure, even Oracle Cloud as to how it fits there. When I think about storing things in cloud, there's some of that just global replication that can happen, or how it can access it. Help us understand really the added value that Panzura has, and why that's important for that New Orleans Saints example that you talked about. >> Yeah, so one of the great things about the way that we handle data is you don't have to duplicate it. We just do snapshots, and it's there and available when you need it. The really important thing about putting this much data, very large files in the cloud, is you need to be able to manage your costs and also where you put it. So let's talk about cost for a second. Being able to have a solution that automatically manages cash versus S3 and longterm storage, that's one of our key, we have 34 patents or something like that. It's one of our main claims to fame is that we can absolutely do that, and that reduces the costs longterm of your storage in the cloud. That's one of the big deals. The other is look, AWS, pick Google, pick Azure. You likely are using more than one cloud, and we have a full hybrid solution. It can mirror what you have going on within your cloud or across clouds, which is perfect. >> Yep, maybe it would help if you dig in a little bit there. When people talk about hybrid cloud, they talk about multicloud. Often the red herring gets thrown out of portability. When we're talking about large data sets, we know we're not moving it. I mean, AWS has the big boxes they can ship you, or have a truck come to your facility to move it, but most customers, wherever you create your data, you tend to want to keep it there, but it's managing my data and fitting across these hybrid environments, or I'll have my data application in one cloud, I'll have a transactional application in another cloud. What are you seeing from your customers out there? How are they dealing and managing this overall cloud environment that they end up with? >> Yeah, it's actually really interesting, because I think the expectations from users day to day is that the cloud works exactly like your laptop or desktop would work in your office environment where you can seamlessly go between an Outlook 365 to a Dropbox. Each of those are on different cloud environments. They're different in terms of how they work, but from a user perspective, you want no latency and immediate access to your data. Well, the cloud doesn't really work like that, and so you need something like Panzura to be the system in the middle, the fabric in the middle that connects all those things together, so that when you want to reach for your big CAD drawing, and pull that, it's going to pull just as quickly as an email from Office 365, and you, as the user, don't need to know whether you pulled that out of cash, because it's a file that's used quite often, or whether it was over on S3 and in longterm storage, or longterm or cheaper storage in the cloud, and I think it's interesting, because a lot of people, we, by the way, work with a lot of customers that do move their data around. They have petabytes and petabytes of data, and they do move it around based on cost and availability, and we can do it all in the background, and as a user, you would see no degradation in legacy or in latency, and you would see no legacy data gone missing, which is kind of cool. >> Jill, it really sounds, David Floyer on the Wikibon team, writes about the hybrid and multicloud environments, and he says we've got these planes. So if you think of the networking planes, people in VMware will say that the vision that Nicera originally had, and MSX has, is that interconnective issue for the networking piece. It sounds like you're doing very much the same thing on the data layer to be able to sit on top of the storage, but provide some consistency in books. I know Panzura has been around for a while. Are there certain use cases that are kind of bubbling to the top? You mentioned things like collaboration, being something that, of course, is very active here in 2020, but if there's some of the, a couple of use cases that bubble up for you as to key things that customers are driving forward today. >> Yeah, I would say two main use cases in the last five months. One is, there is, sadly, dealing with a global pandemic isn't enough. We're getting ransomware at a higher level, and if you've got Panzura, and the way in which we take snapshots and we store your data, you can have a ransomware attack, and we've seen it with a number of our clients during COVID. You simply, in minutes, re-install a snapshot, and off you go. You didn't lose a thing and you can completely ignore ransomware, which has been really great for the folks that have had that installed. The second is the need to collaborate at the bitter end, people's houses. So this is one of the great things about working with VMware is we can put a VM certainly on-prem, but we can put it in your nearest cloud. So, for example, let's say you're using AWS, but the closest place to a particular group of people's home is a Google area. Fine, put it in Google. It won't matter for our deployment, and so you can get those files really quickly at the very edge, and being able to deploy it on VMware just makes it even faster, so. >> All right, Jill, as you said, you've been on for five months. What should we be looking at from Panzura through the rest of 2020? Give us a little bit as to your vision, and what we should expect to see. >> The company is growing really quickly. We've invested a ton of money in our sales partners and customers. So since I've been here, we've literally grown our revenue about 65%, and so that's been super fun. Also, we're investing heavily in R&D, and you're going to see some fun things coming from us on the R&D front about how to really support this data services layer that's coming, and the kinds of information that we all need to get about what's going on in the cloud and our ever-important data, so excited about that. >> Wonderful, we always love VMworld's one of those times where people go through the show floor, and they're like, "Okay, wait." You're hiring, what positions you have, any key things that people should be looking for? If you say, "Hey," what are you looking for when it comes to new talent for Panzura? >> Yeah, so one of the best things about, by the way, new talent for Panzura is that we use Panzura to run our company, and so you can work anywhere in the world, or live anywhere in the world, and work for us, and we're looking for development talent at all levels. We're looking for sales help at all levels, and honestly, there are some internal roles as well, so you can definitely come to our website and see all of those. We're very excited about the growth and hires. >> Always good to see that growth. Jill, why don't you give us a final takeaway that you want people to have about Panzura, what you're seeing from VMware customers these days, and help us get the final takeaways? >> Yeah, so what we enjoy about Panzura and VMware is really being able to deploy some of the largest companies in the world, whether it's federal government, or a very large worldwide enterprise, and if you are looking for a common fabric that allows you to deploy across clouds, we are your choice. >> Jill, thank you so much for catching up. We need to bring you back. Jeff Frick's going to want to talk to you more about the technology and football. Glad to see that you're still plugged in with those as we knew you were. Jill Stelfox, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Stay tuned for more coverage from VMworld 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thanks as always for watching theCUBE. (bright music)

>> Presenter: From around the globe, it's the cube, with digital coverage of pager duty summit 2020. Brought to you by pager duty. >> Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, today talking with Tammy Bryant is a cube alumna, the principal Site reliability engineer at Gremlin and the co-founder and CTO of the Girl Geek Academy. Tammy, it's great to have you on the program again. >> Hi Lisa, thanks so much for having me again. It's great to be here. >> So one of the things I saw in your background 10 plus years of technical expertise, and SRE, and chaos engineering, and I thought chaos engineering, I feel like I'm living in chaos right now. What is chaos engineering and why do you break things on purpose? >> Yep. So the idea of chaos engineering is that we're, breaking systems but in a thoughtful controlled way, to identify weaknesses in systems. So that's really what it's all about. The idea there is, you know, When you're doing really complicated work with technical systems, so like, for example, distributed systems and say, for example, you're working at a bank, it's tough to be able to pinpoint the exact failure mode that could cause a really large outage for your customers. And that's what chaos engineering is all about. you inject the failure proactively, to identify the issues and then you fix them before they actually cause really big problems for customers and you do it during the middle of the day, you know, when you're feeling great, instead of being paged in the middle of the night for an incident, that's actually like causing your customers pain, and making you lose a lot of money. So that's what chaos engineering really is. >> Are you seeing in the last six months since the world is so different, are you seeing an increase in customers? Now with, the for example, Brick and Mortars shut down and everything having to convert to digital if it wasn't already? Is there an increase in demand for chaos engineering services? >> Yeah, definitely. So a lot of people are asking what is chaos engineering, how can I use ,it will it help me reduce my incidents? and definitely because there are a lot of new services that have been rolled out recently, say, for example, curbside pickup. That's a whole new thing that had to be created really recently to be able to handle a large amount of load. And you know, people show up, they want to get their product really fast, 'cause they want to be able to just get back home quickly. And that's something that we've been working on with our customers is to make sure that curbside pickup experience is really great. The other interesting thing that we've been working on because of the pandemic is making sure that banks are really reliable, and that customers are able to get access to their money when they need it. And able to see that information too. And you can imagine that not as when you're in lockdown, and you only can leave your house for maybe an hour a day, you need to be able to quickly get access to your money to buy food, and we've seen some big incidents recently, where that hasn't been the case. Yeah. >> And I can imagine I mean, just thinking of what happened with, everything six months ago and how people were, we are just, demanding, right, consumers were demanding, we expect to get whatever we want, whether it's something we buy on Amazon, something that we stream on Netflix, or whatnot, we have this expectation that we can almost get it in real time. But there was a there was, you know what, there was a delay a few months ago, and there still is to some degree. But companies like Amazon and Netflix, I can imagine, really must have a big focus on chaos engineering, to test these things regularly. And now have proved, I would imagine to some degree that with chaos engineering that they have built, they're built to withstand that. >> Yes, exactly. So our founders at Gremlin came from Netflix and Amazon, our CEO had worked at both where he done chaos engineering, and that's actually why he decided to create Gremlin. It's the first company in the world to offer chaos engineering as a service. And you know, obviously, when you're working somewhere like Netflix, you know the whole product, you have to be able to get access to that movie, that TV show, right in that moment, and also customers expect to be able to see that on for example. There PlayStation in their living room and it should work and there paying for a subscription, So, to be able to keep them on that subscription, you need to offer a great service. Same thing with Amazon, you know, Amazon.com, they've done a lot of chaos engineering work over many years now to be able to make sure that everything is available. And it's not just that, the entire amazon.com is up and running. It's also for example, that when you go and look at a page that the recommendation service works toO and they're able to show you, hey, here's some other things that you might like to get to buy at this time. And I like as as a consumer, I love that 'cause it helps me save time and effort and even money as well 'cause it's giving you some good advice. So that's the type of statement we do. >> Exactly, So. when you're working with customers, I'd love to understand just a little bit from the, like the conversational standpoint is this now, is chaos engineering now, at kind of the sea level or is it still sort of in within the engineering folks 'cause looking at this as a make or break, knowing that for example, Netflix, there's Hulu, there's Disney Plus, there's Apple TV. Plus, if we don't get something that we're looking for right away, there's prime, we're going to go to another streaming service. So are you starting to see like an increase in demand from companies that no, we have competition right behind us, we've got to be able to set up the infrastructure and ensure that it is reliable. Now more than ever. >> Yeah, exactly. That's really, really important. I'm seeing a lot of executives. I mean, I've seen that since the beginning, really, since I first started working at Gremlin. I would often be invited by executives to come and give talks actually, within their company, to help the teams learn about chaos engineering, and I love doing that, It's really great. So I'd be invited by C levels, or VPs, from different departments. And I often get people adding me on LinkedIn from all over the world who are in leadership roles, because really, like, you know, they're responsible for making sure that their companies can hit those critical metrics and make sure that they're able to achieve their really, you know, demanding business goals, and then they're trying to help their teams be able to achieve that, too. So I've actually been so pleased to see that as well. Like it is really cool to have an executive reach out and say, hey, I'm thinking of helping my team, I'd like to get them introduced to you can you come and just teach them about this topic? And I love being able to do that it's really positive. And it's the right way to improve. >> It is, and I think nowadays, with reliability being more important than ever, you know, we talked to leaders from industry, from every industry. And there are certain things right now that are going to be shaping the winners and the losers of tomorrow. And it sounds to me like chaos engineering is one of those things that's going to be fundamental to any type of business to not just survive these times, but to thrive going forward. >> Yes, I definitely think so. I mean, obviously, people can easily just go to a different URL and try and use a different service. And you know, we're seeing now failure across so many different industries. We didn't see that before. But for example, you know, I'm sure you've seen in the news or heard from friends and family about schools, now being completely online. And then kids can't actually access, their calls their resources, what they need to learn every day. So that really just shows you how much it's impacting us as a society, we really know that the internet is critical. It's amazing that we have the internet, like how lucky we are to have this, but it needs to work for us to actually be able to get value out of it. And that's what chaos engineering is all about. You know, were able to make sure that everything is reliable, so it's up and running. And we do that by looking at things like redundancy. So we'll do failover work where we completely shut down an application or service and make sure it gracefully fails over. We also do a lot of dependency failure work, where you're actually looking to say, this is the critical path of this service. And a lot of people don't think about this, but the critical path really starts at sign in. So you need to make sure that login and sign in works really well. It's not just about like the experience once you've signed in, that has to work well all the way through. So actually if you have a good understanding of user experience, it helps you create a much better pathway and understand those critical pieces that the customer needs to be able to do to have a great experience. And I care a lot about that. Like whenever I go and work somewhere, I always read customer tickets, I always try and understand what are the customer pain points. And I love listening to customers and then just solving their problems. The last thing I want them to do is, you know, be complaining or be really annoyed on Twitter because something just isn't working when they need it to be working. And it is really critical these days. It's a the internet is a really serious part of our day to day life. >> Oh, it's a lifeline. I mean, that's, some folks. It's the only way that they're connecting with the outside world, is through the internet. So when things aren't, I had a friend whose son first day of college couple weeks ago, freshman year, first class couldn't get into zoom. And that's a stressful situation. But I imagine too, though, that and I know you're going to be speaking at the pager duty summit that more folks need to understand what this is. And I can tell the you have a real authentic passion for it. Talk to us about what you're going to be talking about at the pager duty summit. >> Sure thing, I'm really excited to be speaking at Pager Duty Summit very soon. My talk is called building, and scaling SRE teams, so site reliability engineering teams. And this is something that I've done previously. I've built out the SRE teams at Dropbox for both databases as well as storage. So block storage, and then I also lead the code workflows team. And that's for, you know, over 500 million users, people accessing the critical data that they store on Dropbox all the time. You know the way that folks use Dropbox is in so many different ways. Maybe it's like really famous music musicians who are trying to create an amazing new album that happens or maybe it's a lawyer preparing for a court case, and they need to be able to access their documents. So those are a lot of customer stories that would come up over time. And prior to that, I worked at the National Australia Bank as well leading teams too and obviously like people care about their money if they can't access their money. If there incorrect transactions, if there are missing transactions, you know, duplicate transactions, maybe people don't mind so much about it you get like a double deposit, but it's still not good from the bank's perspective. So there's all types of different chaos that can happen. And I found it to be really interesting to be able to dive into that and make sure that you can make improvements. And I love that it makes customers happier. And also, it helps you improve your company as a whole. So it's a really good thing to be able to do, And with my talk, I'm going to talk to folks about, you know, not only why it's important to build out a reliability practice at your organization, you know, back in the day, people used to go, why would you need a security team? You know, why would we need that? now everybody has a security team, everyone has a chief security officer as well. But why don't we focus on reliability, like we know that we see incidents out in the news all the time, but for some reason, we don't have the chief reliability officer. I think that's definitely going to be something that will appear in the future just like the chief security officer roll up. But that's what I'm going to talk about there. How you can find site reliability engineers, I'll share a few of my secrets. I won't give any spoilers out. But there's actually quite a few places that you can find amazing people. There's even a school that you can hire them from, which I've done in the past. And then I'll talk to you about how you can interview them to make sure that you get the best people on your team. There are a number of things that I think are very important to interview for. And then once you've got those folks on your team, I'll talk to you about how you can make sure that they're successful. How to set them up for success and make sure that they're aligned to not only your business goals, but also your core values as a company, which is really important too. >> Yeah, that's fantastic. It's very well rounded, I'm curious, what are some of the the characteristics that you think are really critical for someone to become a successful SRE? >> Yeah, so there's a few key things that I look for. One thing is that, somebody who is really good at troubleshooting, so they need to be able to be comfortable with complexity, ambiguity and open ended challenges and problems and also thrive in those types of environments. Because often you're seeing something that you've never seen happen before. And also you're working with really complicated systems. So you just need to be able to feel good in that moment. And you can test for that during an interview question on troubleshooting and debugging. So that's something that I'll go into in more detail. But that's definitely the first characteristic. The other thing, of course, is you want to have someone who is good at being able to build solutions. So they can code, they understand automation, they can figure out how can I take this pain point, this problem? And how can I automate it and then scale this out and make it available for everyone across my organization? So someone who has that mindset of building tools for others, and often they are internal tools, because maybe you're building a tool that helps everybody know, who's on call every single critical service at the company and also non critical service and they can identify that in a minute or less like maybe even just in a few seconds, and then they can quickly get that person involved, if anything need to escalate to them. Via for example, a tool like pager duty, that's really what you want. You want them to be able to think, how can I just make this efficient? How can I make sure that we can get really great results? And yeah, I think they also just need to be really personable too and work well in a really complicated organizational structure. Because usually they have to work with the engineering team, the finance team to understand the revenue impact. They need to be able to work with the PR team and the social media team, if they're incidents, and then they need to provide information about when this incident is going to be resolved, and how they can update VIP customers. They need to talk to the sales team, because what happens if you're giving a demonstration, and then somehow there's an issue, or failure that happens, an incident and then in the middle of your very important sales demo, you're not able to actually deliver it that can happen a lot too. So there are a lot of very important key skills. >> Sounds like it's a really cross functional role, pivotal to an organization, that needs to understand how these different functions not only operate, but also operate together, is that somebody that you think has certain types of previous work experience? Is this something that you talked to the Girl Geek Academy girls about? How did they get into? I'm curious, like what the career path is? >> Yeah, it's interesting, like I find a lot of SRE's often come from either a few different backgrounds. One is they came through the world of Linux and understanding systems, and just being really interested in that. Like deep diving into the kernel, understanding how to improve performance of systems. The other side is maybe they came from coding background where they were actually building applications and features. I started off actually on that side, but I also had a passion for Linux. And then I sort of spread over into the other side and was able to learn both. And then often you know, someone who's comfortable with being on call and handling incidents, but it is a lot of skills, like that's actually something that I often talk to folks about, and they asked me how can I become a great SRE? There's so many things I need to learn. And I just say, you know, take it slow, try and gradually increase your number of skills. People often say that there is like there's some curve for SRE's, where you have the operations side, on one side, and then the coding side on the other. And often like the best person sits right in the middle where they have both ops and engineering skills. But it's really hard to find those people. It's okay if you have someone that's like, really deep, has amazing knowledge of Linux and scaling systems and internet management, and then you can pair them up with a really amazing programmer who's great at software engineering and software architecture, that's okay, too. >> We've been hearing for a long time about this sort of negative unemployment with respect to cyber security professionals. Is that, are you guys falling into that same category as well with SRE? Or is it somehow different or you just know this is exactly what we're looking for? We want to go out there, and even in the Girl, Greek Academy, maybe help girls learn how to be able to find what I imagine are a lot of opportunities. >> Yeah, there are so many opportunities for this. So it's definitely an opportunity because what I see is there's not enough SRE's. So tons of companies all over the world will actually ping me and say, hey, Tommy, how do I hire SRE's, that's why I decided to give this talk because I wanted to package that up and just share that information as to how you can do it. And also, maybe you can't find the SRE's because they don't exist. But you can help retrain your team. So you can have an engineer learn the skills that are required to be an SRE, that's totally possible too, maybe move them over to become an SRE. With girl geek Academy, one of the things that I've done is run hackathons and workshops and just online training sessions to help girls learn these new skills. So that's exactly what our mission is, is to teach 1 million girls technical skills by 2025. And I love to do mentoring at scale, which is why it's been really cool to be able to do it online and through these like workshops and remote hackathons. And I definitely love to do something where else work with some of our customers actually, and run an event. I did one a while back, it was really cool, we were able to have all of the girls come in and be at the customer's office and actually learn skills with the customer, which was really fun. And it helps them actually think, hey, I could work one day that would be really amazing. And I'm going to do that again in November. And it's kind of fun too. We can do things like have like, you know, dad and mom and then daughter day, where you actually bring your daughter to work and help her learn technical skills. That's really fun because they get to see what you do and they understand it more and see how cool chaos engineering really is. Then they think oh, wow, you're so awesome, this is great. >> I love it, that's fantastic. Well it sounds like, like I said before your passion for it is really there. What, I think is really interesting is how you're talking about chaos engineering and just the word in and of itself chaos. But you painted in such a positive lights critical business critical, but also the all the opportunities there that businesses have to learn and fine tune so such an interesting conversation. Yeah, Tammy. We have you back on the program. But I thank you so much for joining me today. And for those folks that lucky enough that are attending the pager duty summit, they're going to get to learn a lot from you. Thank you. >> Thanks so much for having me, Lisa. >> For Tammy Bryant, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. And as you know, I've been running a CxO series in this COVID economy. And as we go into the post-isolation world, really want to focus and expand our scope and really look at startups. And of course, we're going to look at startups, let's follow the money. And I want to start with the investor. Mark Roberge is here. He's the managing director at Stage 2 capital. He's a professor at the Harvard Business School, former CRO over at HubSpot. Mark, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, you bet, Dave. Thanks for having me. >> So I love that, you know... looking at your career a little bit, on your LinkedIn and following some of your videos, I love the fact that you did, and now you teach and you're also applying it with Stage 2 Capital. Tell us a little bit more about both of your career and Stage 2. >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of it's a bit serendipitous, especially last 10 years, but I've always had this learn, do, teach framework in my, in mind as I go through the decades of my career, you know, like you're probably like 80% learning in your twenties, early thirties and you know, 20% doing. Then, you know, I think my thirties was like leading the HubSpot sales team, a lot of doing, a little bit of teaching, you know, kind of hopping into different schools, et cetera, and also doing a lot of, some writing. And now like, I'm teaching it. I think investing kind of falls into that too, you know, where you've got this amazing opportunity to meet, the next generation of, of extraordinary entrepreneurs and engage with them. So yeah, that, that has been my career. You know, Dave, I've been a, passionate entrepreneur since 22 and then, the last one I did was HubSpot and that led to just an opportunity to build out one of the first sales teams in a complete inside environment, which opened up the doors for a data driven mindset and all this innovation that led to a book that led to recruitment on HBS's standpoint, to like come and teach that stuff, which was such a humbling honor to pursue. And that led to me a meeting my co-founder, Jay Po, of Stage 2 Capital, who was a customer to essentially start the first VC fund, running back by sales and marketing leaders, which was his vision. But when he proposed it to me, addressed a pretty sizeable void, that I saw, in the entrepreneur ecosystem that I thought could make a substantial impact to the success rate of startups. >> Great, I want to talk a little bit about how you guys compete and what's different there, but you know, I've read some of your work, looked at some of your videos, and we can bring that into the conversation. But I think you've got some real forward-thinking for example, on the, you know, the best path to the upper right. The upper right, being that, that xy-axis on growth and adoption, you know, do you go for hyper-growth or do you go for adoption? How you align sales and marketing, how you compensate salespeople. I think you've got some, some leading-edge thinking on that, that I'd love for you to bring into the conversation, but let's start with Stage 2. I mean, how do you compete with the big guys? What's different about Stage 2 Capital? >> Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, we're a bunch of sales and marketing and execs. I mean, our backing is, a hundred plus CROs, VPs of marketing, CMOs from, from the public companies. I mean, Dropbox, LinkedIn, Oracle, Salesforce, SurveyMonkey, Lyft, Asana, I mean, just pick a unicorn, we probably have some representation from it. So that's, a big part of how we compete, is most of the time, when a rocket ship startup is about to build a sales team, one of our LPs gets a call. And because of that, we get a call, right. And, and so there's, we're just deep in, in helping... So first off, assess the potential and risks of a startup in their current, go to market design, and then really, you know, stepping in, not just with capital, but a lot of know-how in terms of, you know, how to best develop this go-to-market for their particular context. So that's a big part of our differentiation. I don't think we've ever lost a deal that we tried to get into, you know, for that reason, just because we come in at the right stage, that's right for our value prop. I'd say Dave, the biggest, sort of difference, in our investing theme. And this really comes out of like, post HubSpot. In addition to teaching the HBS, I did parachute into a different startup every quarter, for one day, where you can kind of like assess their go-to-market, looking for, like, what is the underlying consistency of those series A businesses that become unicorns versus those that flatline. And if I, you know, I've now written like 50 pages on it, which I, you know, we can, we can highlight to the crew, but the underlying cliffnotes is really, the avoidance of a premature focus on top line revenue growth, and an acute focus early on, on customer attention. And, I think like, for those of you, who run in that early stage venture community these days, and especially in Silicon Valley, there's this like, triple, triple, double, double notion of, like year one, triple revenue, year two, triple revenue, year three, double revenue, year four, double revenue, it's kind of evolved to be like the holy grail of what your objectives should be. And I do think like there is a fraction of companies that are ready for that and a large amount of them that, should they pursue that path, will lead to failure. And, and so, we take a heavy lens toward world-class customer retention as a prerequisite, to any sort of triple, triple, double, double blitzscaling type model. >> So, let me ask you a couple of questions there. So it sounds like your LPs are heavily, not only heavily and financially invested, but also are very active. I mean, is that a, is that a fears thing? How active are the LPs in reality? I mean, they're busy people. They're they're software operators. >> Yeah. >> Do they really get involved in businesses? >> Absolutely. I mean, half of our deals that we did in fund one came from the LPs. So we get half of our funnel, comes from LPs. Okay. So it's always like source-pick-win-support. That's like, what basically a VC does. And our LPs are involved in every piece of that. Any deal that we do, we'll bring in four or five of our LPs to help us with diligence, where they have particular expertise in. So we did an insuretech company in Q4, one of our LPs runs insurance practice at Workday. And this particular play he's selling it to big insurance companies. He was extremely helpful, to understand that domain. Post investment, we always bring in four or five LPs to go deeper than I can on a particular topic. So one of our plays is about to stand up in account based marketing, you know, capability. So we brought in the CMO, a former CMO at Rapid7 and the CMO at Unisys, both of which have, stood in, stood up like, account based marketing practices, much more deeply, than I could. You know of course, we take the time to get to know our LPs and understand both their skills, and experiences as well as their willingness to help, We have Jay Simons, who's the President of Atlassian. He doesn't have like hours every quarter, he's running a $50 billion company, right? So we have Brian Halligan, the CEO of HubSpot, right? He's running a $10 billion company now. So, we just get deal flow from them and maybe like an event once or twice a year, versus I would say like 10 to 20% of our LPs are like that. I would say 60% of them are active operators who are like, "You know what? I just miss the early days, and if I could be active with one or two companies a quarter, I would love that." And I would say like a quarter of them are like semi-retired and they're like, they're choosing between helping our company and being on the boat or the golf course. >> Is this just kind of a new model? Do you see having a different philosophy where you want to have a higher success rate? I mean, of course everybody wants to have a, you know, bat a thousand. >> Yeah. >> But I wonder if you could address that. >> Yeah. I don't think it, I'm not advocating slower growth, but just healthier growth. And it's just like an extra, it's really not different than sort of the blitzscaling oriented San Francisco VC, okay? So, you know, I would say when we were doing startups in the nineties, early 2000s before The Lean Startup, we would have this idea and build it in a room for a year and then sell it in parallel, basically sell it everywhere and Eric Ries and The Lean Startup changed all that. Like he introduced MVPs and pivots and agile development and we quickly moved to, a model of like, yeah, when you have this idea, it's not like... You're really learning, keep the team small, keep the burn low, pivot, pivot, pivot, stay agile and find product-market fit. And once you do that, scale. I would say even like, West Coast blitzscaling oriented VCs, I agree with that. My only take is... We're not being scientifically rigorous, on that transition point. Go ask like 10 VCs or 10 entrepreneurs, what's product-market fit, and you'll get 10 different answers. And you'll get answers like when you have lots of sales, I just, profoundly disagree with that. I think, revenue in sales has very little to do with product-market fit. That's like, that's like message-market fit. Like selling ice to Eskimos. If I can sell ice to Eskimos, it doesn't mean that product-market fit. The Eskimos didn't need the ice. It just means I was good at like pitching, right? You know, other folks talk about like, having a workable product in a big market. It's just too qualitative. Right? So, that's all I'm advocating is, that, I think almost all entrepreneurs and investors agree, there's this incubation, rapid learning stage. And then there's this thing called product-market fit, where we switch to rapid scale. And all I'm advocating is like more scientist science and rigor, to understanding some sequences that need to be checked off. And a little bit more science and rigor on what is the optimal pace of scale. Because when it comes to scale, like pretty much 50 out of 50 times, when I talk to a series A company, they have like 15 employees, two sales reps, they got to like 2 million in revenue. They raise an 8 million-dollar round in series A, and they hired 12 salespeople the next month. You know, and Dave, you and your brother, who runs a large sales team, can really understand how that's going to failure almost all the time. (Dave mumbles) >> Like it's just... >> Yeah it's a killer. >> To be able to like absorb 10 reps in a month, being a 50, it's just like... Who even does all those interviews? Who onboards them? Who manages them? How do we feed them with demand? Like these are some of the things I just think, warrant more data and science to drive the decisions on when and how fast to scale. >> Mark, what is the key indicator then, of product-market fit? Is it adoption? Is it renewal rates? >> Yeah. It's retention in my opinion. Right? So, so the, the very simple framework that I require is you're ready to scale when you have product-market and go to market-fit. And let's be, extremely precise, and rigorous on the definitions. So, product-market fit for me, the best metric is retention. You know, that essentially means someone not only purchased your offering, but experienced your offering. And, after that experience decided to repurchase. Whether they buy more from you or they renew or whatever it is. Now, the problem with it is, in many, like in the world we live inside's, it's like, the retention rate of the customers we acquire this quarter is not evident for a year. Right, and we don't have a year to learn. We don't have a year to wait and see. So what we have to do is come up with a leading indicator to customer retention. And that's something that I just hope we see more entrepreneurs talking about, in their product market fit journey. And more investors asking about, is what is your lead indicator to customer retention? Cause when that gets checked off, then I believe you have product-market fit, okay? So, there's some documentation on some unicorns that have flirted with this. I think Silicon Valley calls it the aha moment. That's great. Just like what. So like Slack, an example, like, the format I like to use for the lead indicator of customer retention is P percent of customers, do E event, in T time, okay? So, it basically boils it down to those three variables, P E T. So if we bring that to life and humanize it, 70% of the customers, we sign up, this is Slack, 70% of the customers who sign up, send 2000 team messages in 30 days, if that happens, we have product-market fit. I like that a lot more, than getting to a million in revenue or like having a workable product in a big market. Dropbox, 85% of customers, share one file in one hour. HubSpot, I know this was the case, 75% of customers, use five or more of the 25 features in the platform, within 60 days. Okay? P percent, do E event, in T time. So, if we can just format that, and look at that through customer cohorts, we often get visibility into, into true product market-fit within weeks, if not like a month or two. And it's scientifically, data-driven in terms of his foundation. >> Love it. And then of course, you can align sales compensation, you know, with that retention. You've talked a lot about that, in some of your work. I want to get into some of the things that stage two is doing. You invest in SaaS companies. If I understand it correctly, it's not necessarily early stage. You're looking for companies that have sort of achieved some degree of revenue and now need help. It needs some operational help and scaling. Is that correct? >> Yeah. Yeah. So it's a little bit broader in size, as any sort of like B2B software, any software company that's scaling through a sales team. I mean, look at our backers and look at my background. That's, that's what we have experience in. So not really any consumer plays. And yeah, I mean, we're not, we have a couple product LPs. We have a couple of CFO type LPs. We have a couple like talent HR LPs, but most of us are go-to-market. So we don't, you know, there's awesome seed funds out there that help people set up their product and engineering team and go from zero to one in terms of the MVP and find product-market fit. Right? We like to come in right after that. So it's usually like between the seed and the A, usually the revenue is between half a million and 1.5 million. And of course we put an extraordinary premium on customer retention, okay? Whereas I think most of our peers put an extraordinary premium on top line revenue growth. We put an extraordinary premium on retention. So if I find a $700,000 business that, you know, has whatever 50, 70 customers, you know, depending on their ticket size, it has like North of 90% local retention. That's super exciting. Even if they're only growing like 60%, it's super exciting. >> What's a typical size of investments. Do you typically take board seats or not? >> Yeah. We typically put in like between like seven hundred K, one and a half million, in the first check and then have, larger amounts for follow on. So on the A and the B. We try not to take board's seats to be honest with you, but instead the board observers. It's a little bit selfish in terms of our funds scale. Like the general counsel from other venture capitalists is of course, like, the board seat is there for proper governance in terms of like, having some control over expenditures and acquisition conversations, et cetera, or decisions. But a lot of people who have had experience with boards know that they're very like easy and time efficient when the company is going well. And there are a ton of work when the company is not going well. And it really hurts the scale, especially on a smaller fund like us. So we do like to have board observers seats, and we go to most of the board meetings so that our voice is heard. But as long as there's another fund in there that, has, world-class track record in terms of, holding proper governance at the board level, we prefer to defer to them on that. >> All right, so the COVID lock down, hit really in earnest in March, of course, we all saw the Sequoia memo, The Black Swan memo. You were, I think it HubSpot, when, you remember the Rest In Peace Good Times memo, came out very sort of negative, put up all over the industry, you know, stop spending. But there was some other good advice in there. I don't mean to sort of, go too hard on that, but, it was generally a negative sentiment. What was your advice to your portfolio companies, when COVID hit, what were you telling them? >> Yeah, I summarized this in our lead a blog article. We kicked off our blog, which is partially related to COVID in April, which has kind of summarize these tips. So yes, you are correct, Dave. I was running sales at HubSpot in '08 when we had last sort of major economic, destabilization. And I was freaking out, you know (laughs briefly) at the time we were still young, like 20, 30 reps and numbers to chase. And... I was, actually, after that year, looking back, we are very fortunate that we had a value prop that was very recession-proof. We were selling to the small business community, who at the time was cutting everything except new ways to generate sales. And we happen to have the answer to that and it happened to work, right? So it showed me that, there's different levels of being recession proof. And we accelerated the raise of our second fund for stage two with the anticipation that there would be a recession, which, you know, in the venture world, some of the best things you could do is close a fund and then go into a recession, because, there's more deals out there. The valuations are lower and it's much easier to understand, nice to have versus must have value props. So, the common theme I saw in talking to my peers who looked back in the '01 crisis, as well as the '08 crisis, a year later was not making a bolder decision to reorient their company in the current times. And usually on the go-to-market, that's two factors, the ICP who you're selling to, ideal customer profile and the CVP, what your message is, what's your customer value prop. And that was really, in addition to just stabilizing cash positions and putting some plans in there. That was the biggest thing we pushed our portfolio on was, almost like going through the exercise, like it's so hard as a human, to have put like nine months into a significant investment leading up to COVID and now the outcome of that investment is no longer relevant. And it's so hard to let that go. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> But you have to, you have to. And now it's everything from like, you spent two years learning how to sell to this one persona. And now that persona is like, gyms, retail and travel companies. Like you've got to let that go. (chuckle simultaneously) You know what I mean? Like, and, you know, it's just like... So that's really what we had to push folks on was just, you know, talking to founders and basically saying this weekend, get into a great headspace and like, pretend like you were parachuted into your company as a fresh CEO today. And look around and appreciate the world and what it is. What is this world? What are the buyers talking about? Which markets are hot, which markets are not, look at the assets that you have, look at your product, look at your staff, look at your partners, look at your customer base, and come up with a strategy from the ground up based on that. And forget about everything you've done in the last year. Right? And so, that's really what we pushed hard on. And in some cases, people just like jumped right on it. It was awesome. We had a residential real estate company that within two weeks, stood up a virtual open house module that sold like hotcakes. >> Yeah. >> That was fantastic execution. And we had other folks that we had to have like three meetings with to push them deep enough, to go more boldly. But that, was really the underlying pattern that I saw in past, recessions and something I pushed the portfolio on, is just being very bold on your pivots. >> Right? So I wanted to ask you how your portfolio companies are doing. I'm imagining you saw some looked at this opportunity as a tailwind. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned the virtual, open house, a saw that maybe were exposed, had, revenue exposure to hard-hit industries and others kind of in the middle. How are your portfolio companies doing? >> Yes, strong. I'm trying to figure out, like, of course I'm going to say that, but I'm trying to figure out like how to provide quant, to just demonstrate that. We were fortunate that we had no one, and this was just dumb luck. I mean, we had no one exclusively selling to like travel, or, restaurants or something. That's just bad luck if you were, and we're fortunate that we got a little lucky there, We put a big premium, obviously we had put a big premium on customer retention. And that, we always looked at that through our recession proof lens at all our investments. So I think that helped, but yeah, I mean, we've had, first off, we made one investment post COVID. That was the last investment on our first fund and that particular company, March, April, May, their results were 20% higher than any month in history. Those are the types of deals we're seeing now is like, you literally find some deals that are accelerating since COVID and you really just have to assess if it's permanent or temporary, but that one was exciting. We have a telemedicine company that's just like, really accelerating post COVID, again, luck, you know, in terms of just their alignment with the new world we're living in. And then, jeez! I mean, we've had, I think four term sheets, for markups in our portfolio since March. So I think that's a good sign. You know, we only made 11 investments and four of them, either have verbal or submitted term sheets on markups. So again, I feel like the portfolio is doing quite well, and I'm just trying to provide some quantitative measures. So it doesn't feel like a political answer. (Mark chuckles) >> Well, thank you for that, but now, how have you, or have you changed your sort of your thesis post COVID? Do you feel like your... >> Sure. >> Your approach was sort of geared towards, you know, this... >> Yeah. >> Post COVID environment? But what changes have you made. >> A little bit, like, I think in any bull market, generally speaking, there's just going to be a lot of like triple, triple, double, double blitzscaling, huge focus on top-line revenue growth. And in any down market, there's going to be a lot of focus on customer retention unit economics. Now we've always invested in the latter, so that doesn't change much. There's a couple of things that have changed. Number one, we do look for acceleration post COVID. Now, that obviously we were not, we weren't... That lens didn't exist pre-COVID, So in addition to like great retention, selling through a sales team, around the half million to a million revenue, we want to see acceleration since COVID and we'll do diligence to understand if that's a permanent, or a temporary advantage. I would say like... Markets like San Francisco, I think become more attractive in post COVID. There's just like, San Francisco has some magic happening there's some VC funds that avoid it, cause it's too expensive. There's some VC funds that only invest in San Francisco, because there's magic happening. We've always just been, you know... we have two portfolio companies there that have done well. Like we look at it and if it's too expensive, we have to avoid it. But we do agree that there's magic happening. I did look at a company last week. (chuckles inaudibly) So Dave, there are 300K in revenue, and their last valuation is 300 million. (both chuckle) >> Okay, so why is San Francisco more attractive, Mark? >> Well, I mean and those happened in Boston too. >> We looked at... (Mark speaks inaudibly) >> I thought you were going to tell me the valuations were down. (Dave speaks inaudibly) >> Here's the deal all right, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't and this is one, but in general, I think like they have come down. And honestly, the other thing that's happened is good entrepreneurs that weren't raising are now raising. Okay? So, a market like that I think becomes more attractive. The other thing that I think that happens is your sort of following strategies different. Okay so, there is some statistical evidence that, you know, obviously we're coming out of a bear market, a bullish market in, in both the public and the private equities. And there's been a lot of talk about valuations in the private sector is just outrageous. And so, you know, we're fortunate that we come in at this like post seed, pre-A, where it's not as impacted. It is, but not as or hasn't been, but because there's so many more multibillion-dollar funds that have to deploy 30 to 50 million per investment, there's a lot of heating up that's happened at that stage. Okay? And so pre COVID, we would have taken advantage of that by taking either all or some of our money off the table, in these following growth rounds. You know, as an example, we had a company that we made an investment with around 30 million evaluation and 18 months later, they had a term sheet for 500. So that's a pretty good return in 18 months. And you know, that's an expensive, you know, so that that's like, wow, you know, we probably, even though we're super bullish on the company, we may want to take off a 2X exposition... >> Yeah. >> And take advantage of the secondaries. And the other thing that happens here, as you pointed out, Dave is like, risk is not, it doesn't become de-risk with later rounds. Like these big billion dollar funds come in, they put pressure on very aggressive strategic moves that sometimes kills companies and completely outside of our control. So it's not that we're not bullish on the company, it's just that there's new sets of risks that are outside of the scope of our work. And so, so that that's probably like a less, a lesser opportunity post COVID and we have to think longer term and have more patient capital, as we navigate the next year or so of the economy. >> Yeah, so we've got to wrap, but I want to better understand the relationship between the public markets and you've seen the NASDAQ up, which is just unbelievable when you look at what's happening in main street, and the relationship between the public markets and the private markets, are you saying, they're sort of tracking, but not really identical. I mean, what's the relationship. >> Okay, there's a hundred, there's thousands of people that are better at that than me. Like the kind of like anecdotal thoughts that I, or the anecdotal narrative that I've heard in past recessions and actually saw too, was the private market, when the public market dropped, it took nine months roughly for the private market to correct. Okay, so there was a lag. And so there's, some arguments that, that would happen here, but this is just a weird situation, right? Of like the market, even though we're going through societal crazy uncertainty, turmoil and, and tremendous tragedy, the markets did drop, but they're pretty hot right now, specifically in tech. And so there's a number of schools of thoughts there that like some people claim that tech is like the utilities companies of the eighties, where it's just a necessity and it's always going to be there regardless of the economy. Some people argue that what's happened with COVID and the remote workplace have made, you know, accelerated the adoption of tech, the inevitable adoption, and others could argue that like, you know, the worst is still the come. >> Yeah. And of course, you've got The Fed injecting so much liquidity into the system, low interest rates, Mark, last question. Give me a pro tip for entrepreneurs. (Mark Sighs) >> I would say, like, we've talked a lot about, this methodology with, you know, customer retention, really focusing there, align everything there as opposed to top line revenue growth initially. I think that the extension I do at this point is, do your diligence on your investors, and what their thoughts are on your future growth plans to see if they're aligned. Cause that, that becomes like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, when they dig into this work, they do want to operate around it. But that becomes that much harder when you have investors that think a different way. So I would just, you know, just always keep in mind that, you know, I know it's so hard to raise money, but you know, do the diligence on your investors to understand, what they'd like to see in the next two years and how it's aligned with your own vision. >> Mark is really great having you on. I'd love to have you back and as this thing progresses, and see how it all shakes out. It really a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> No, thanks, Dave. I appreciate you having me on. >> And thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (music plays)