from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hello everyone welcome to the cube conversation here in Palo Alto our studios of the cube I'm showing for your host we're here during the crisis of Cove in nineteen doing remote interviews I come into the studio we've got a quarantine crew or here getting the interviews getting the stories out there and of course the story we continue to talk about is the impact of Kovan 19 and how we're all getting back to work either working at home or working remotely and virtually certainly but as things start to change we can start to see events mostly digital events and we're here to talk about an event that's coming up called the failover conference from gremlin which is now gone digital because it's April 21st but I think what's important about this conversation that I want to get into is not only talk about the event that's coming up but talk about these scale problems that are being highlighted by this change in work environment working at home we've been talking about the at scale problems that we're seeing whether it's a flood of surge of traffic and the chaos that's ensuing across the world with this pandemic so I'm excited have two great guests Alberto Ferran auto senior vice president marketing gremlin and Tammy Bhutto principal site reliability engineer or SRE guys thanks for coming on appreciate it thank you Thank You Alberto I want to get to you first you know we've known each other before you've been in this industry we all we've been all been talking about the cloud native cloud scale for some time it's kind of inside the ropes it's inside baseball Tami your site reliability engineer everyone knows Google knows how well cloud works this is large-scale stuff now with The Cove in 19 we're starting to see the average person my brother my sister our family members and people around the world go oh my god this is really a high impact this change of behavior the surge of you know whether whether it's traffic on the internet or work at home tools that are inadequate you start to see these statistical things that were planned for not working well and this actually Maps the things that we've been talking about it in our industry Alberto you've been on this how you guys doing and what's your what's your take on this situation we're in right now yeah yeah we're we're doing pretty well as a company we were born as a distributed organization to begin with so for us working in a distributed environment from all over the world is is common practice day-to-day personally you know I'm originally from Italy my parents my family is Milan and Bergen audible places so I have to follow the news with extra care and so much in me it becomes so much clearer nowadays that technology is not just a powerful tool to enable our businesses but it also is so critical for our day-to-day life and thanks to you know video calls I can easily talk to my family back there every day Wow so that's that's really important so yes we've been talking for a long time as you mentioned about complex systems at scale and reliability often in the context of mission-critical applications but more and more these systems need to be reliable also when it comes to back office systems that enable people to continue to work on a daily basis yeah well our hearts go out to your family and your friends in Italy and hope everyone's stay safe there no that was a tough situation continues to be a challenge Tammy I want to get your thoughts how is life going for you you're a sight reliable engineer what you deal with on the tech side is now happening in the real world it's it's almost it's mind-blowing and to me that we're seeing these these things happen it's it's a paradigm that needs attention and whew look at it as a sre dealing a most from a tech side now seeing it play out in real life it's such an interesting situation really terrible so one of the things that I specialize in as a site reliability engineer is incident management and so for example I previously worked at Dropbox where I was you know the incident manager on call for 500 million customers you know it's like 24/7 and these large-scale incidents you really need to be able to act fast there are two very important metrics that we track and care about as a site reliability engineer the first one is mean time to detection how fast can you detect what something is happening obviously if you detect an issue faster and you've got a better chance of making the impact lower so you can contain the blast radius I like to explain it to people like if you have a fire in your sauce bin in your kitchen and you put it out that's way better than waiting until your entire house is on fire and the other metric is mean time to resolution so how long does it take you to recover from the situation so yeah this is a large-scale global incident right now that we're in yeah I know you guys do a lot of talk about chaos theory and that applies a lot of math involved we all know that but I think when you go look at the real world this is gonna be table stakes and you know there's now a line in the sand here you know pre-pandemic post pandemic and i think you guys have an interesting company gremlin in the sense that this is this is a complex system and if you think about the world we're going to be living in whether it's digital events that you guys are have one coming up or how to work at home or tools that humans are going to be using it's going to be working with systems right so you have this new paradigm gonna be upon us pretty quickly and it's not just buying software mechanisms or software it's a complex system it's distributed computing and operating so I mean this is kind of the world can you guys talk about the gremlin situation of how you guys are attacking these new problems and these new opportunities that are emerging one of the things that I've always specialized in over the last 10 years is chaos engineering and so the idea of chaos engineering is that you're injecting failure on purpose to uncover weaknesses so that's really important in distributed systems with distributed you know cloud computing all these different services that you're kind of putting together but the idea is if you can inject failure you can actually figure out what happens when I inject that small failure and then you can actually go ahead and fix it one of the things I like to say to people is you know focus on what your top 5 critical systems are let's fix those first don't go for low-hanging fruit fix the biggest problems first get rid of the biggest amount of pain that you have as a company and then you can go ahead and like actually if you think about Pareto principle the 80/20 rule if you fix 20% of your biggest problems you actually solve 80% of your issues that always works something that I've done while working at National Australia Bank doing chaos engineering also what gremlin at Dropbox and I help a lot of our customers do that to albariño talk about the mindset involved it's almost counterintuitive whoa-oh-oh risk the biggest system and I don't want to touch those there working fine right now and then these problems just gestate they kind of hang around to the bin in the kitchen fire you know mist okay I don't want to touch it the house is still working so this is kind of a new mindset could you talk about what your take is on that is the industry there I mean oh it was a kind of a corner case you know you had Netflix you had the chaos monkey those days and then now it's the DevOps practice for a lot of folks you guys are involved in that what's the what's the appetite what's the progress of chaos engineering and mainstream yeah it's interesting that you mentioned DevOps and you know recently Gartner came up with a new revisited devil scream work that has chaos engineering in the middle of the lifecycle of your application and the reality is that systems have become so complex in infrastructure so many layers of abstractions you have hundreds of services if you're doing micro services but even if you're not doing micro services you have so many applications connected to each other build really complex workflows and automation flows it's impossible for traditional QA to really understand well the vulnerability are in terms of resiliency in terms of quality too often the production environment is also too different from the staging environment and so you need a fundamentally different approach to go and find where your weaknesses are and find them before they happen before you end up finding yourself in a situation like the one we're in today and you're not prepared and so much of what we talk about is giving it >> and the methodology for people to go and find these vulnerabilities not so much about creating cause chaos but it's about managing sales that is built into our current system and exposing those vulnerabilities before they create problem and so that's a very scientific methodology and and and tooling that we would bring to market and we help customers with Tammy I want to get your thoughts on so you know we used to riff a lot of to our 10th you know cube we've had a lot of conversation we've ripped over the over the years but you know when the surge of Amazon Web Services came out as pretty obvious the clouds amazing and look at the startups that were born you mentioned Dropbox you work there these comings and all these born in the cloud these hyper scale comes built from scratch great way to scale up and we used to joke about Google people say I would like a cloud like Google but no one has Google's use cases and Google really pioneered the sre concept and you gotta give them a lot of props for that but now we're kind of getting to a world where it's becoming Google like there's more scale now than ever before it's not a corner case it's becoming more popular and more of a preferred architecture this large scale what's your assessment of the of the mainstream enterprises how far are they did in your mind our way are they there with Castle they clothed how they doing it how does someone take how does someone develop an SRE practice to get the Google like scale because Google has an amazing network they got large-scale cloud they have sres they've been doing it for years how does a company that's transforming their IT have expertise it's a great question I get asked this a lot as well one of our goals at Bremen is to help make Internet more reliable for everybody everyone using the Internet all of the engineers who are trying to build reliable services and so I'm often asked by you know companies all over the world how do we create an SRE practice and how do we practice chaos engineering and so actually how you can get started actually rolling out your sre program based on my experiences I've done it so when I worked at Dropbox I worked with a lot of people who had been at Google they've been at YouTube they were there when was rolled out across those companies and then they brought those learnings to Dropbox and I learned from them but also the interesting thing is if you look at enterprise companies so large banks say for example I worked at a National Australia Bank for six years we actually did a lot of work that I would consider chaos engineering and sre practices so for example we would do large-scale disaster recovery and that's where you fail over an entire data center to a secret data center in an unknown location and the reason is because you're checking to make sure that everything operates okay if there's a nuclear blast that's actually what you have to do and you have to do that practice every quarter so but but if you think about it it's not very good to only do it once a quarter you really want to be practicing chaos engineering and injecting failure on this I think actually my I prefer to do it three times a week do I do it a lot but I'm also someone who likes to work out a lot and be fit all the time so I know that do something regularly you get great results so that's what I always tell us yeah I get the reps in as we say you know get get stronger at the muscle memory guys talk about the event that's coming up you got an event that was schedules physical event and then you were right in the planning mode and then the crisis hits you going digital going virtual it's really digital but it's digital that's on the internet so how are you guys thinking about this I know I it's out there it's April 21st can you share some specifics around the event well who should be attending and how they get involved online yeah yeah they vent really came about about together about a month ago when we started to see all the cancellations happening across the industry because of code 19 and we are extremely engaged with in the community and we have a lot of talks and we are seeing a lot of conferences just dropping and so speakers losing their opportunity to share their knowledge with respect to how you do reliability and topics that we focus on and so we quickly people it as a company and created a new online event to give everyone in the community the opportunity to you know they'll over to a new event as the president as a as the conference name says and and have those speakers will have lost their speaking slots have a new opportunity to go share their knowledge and so that came together really quickly we share the idea with a dozen of our partners and everyone liked it and all the sudden this thing took off like crazy in just a month where we are approaching you know four thousand registrations we have over 30 partners signed up and supporting the initiative a lot of a lot of past partners as well covering the event so it was impressive to see the amount of interest that that we were able to generate in such a short amount of time and really this is a conference for anybody who is interested in resilience and if you want to know from the best on how to build business continuity of persistence people and processes this is a great opportunity at no cost we need some free conference and the target persona and the audience you want to have a ten is what Sree Zoar folks doing architectural work and what's that that's the target yes and to attend our cadets s Ari's developers business leaders who care about the quality and reliability of their applications who need to help create a framework and a mindset for their organization that speaks to what Tammy was saying a minute ago having that constant crap is on a daily basis about who and finding how to improve things you know Tammy we've been doing going to physical events with the cube and extracting the signal of the noise and distributing it digitally for ten years and I got to ask you because now that those are those events have gone away you talk about chaos and injecting failure these doing these digital events is not as easy it's just live streaming it's it's hard to replicate the value of a physical event years of experience and standards roles and responsibilities to digital different consumption environments a synchronous you're trying to create a synchronous environment it's its own complex system so I think a lot of people are experimenting and learning from these events because it's pretty chaotic so I'd love to get your thoughts on how you look at these digital events as a chaos engineer how should people be looking at these events how are you I was looking at it you know I also want to get the program going get people out there get the content but you have to iterate on this how do you view this it is really different so I actually like to compare it to fire drills in SRA so often what you do there is you actually create a fake incident or a fake issue so you just you know you're saying let's have a fire drill similar to like you know when you're in a building and you have a fire drill that goes off you have wardens and everything and you all have to go outside so we can do that in this new world that we're all in all of a sudden you know a lot of people have never run an online event and now all of a sudden they have to so what I would say is like do a fire drill um run up you know a baked one before you do the actual on one to make sure that everything does work okay my other tip is make sure that you have backup plans backup plans on backup plans on backup plans like as in SRA I always have at least three to five backup plans like I'm not just saying plan a and Plan B but there's also a C D and E and I think that's very important and you know even when you're considering technology one of the things we say with chaos engineering is you know if you're using one service inject failure and make sure that you can fail over to a different alternative service in case something goes wrong yeah hence the failover conference which is the name of the conference yeah yeah well we certainly are gonna be sending a digital reporter there virtually if you need any backup plans obviously we have the remote interviews here if you need any help let us know really appreciate it I'll great to see you guys and thanks for sharing any final thoughts on the conference how what what happens when we get through the other side of this I'll give you guys a final word we'll start with Alberto with you first yeah I think one when we are on the other side of this will will understand even more the importance of effective resilience architecting and and and testing I think you know as a provider of tools and methodologies for that we we think we will be able to help customers do we do a significant leap forward on that side and the conference is just super exciting I think it's going to be a great I encourage everyone to participate we have tremendous lineup of speakers that have incredible reputation in their fields so I'm really happy and and excited about the work that the team has being able to do with our partners put together this type of event okay Tammy yes ma'am I'm actually going to be doing the opening keynote for the conference and the topic that I'm speaking about is that reliability matters more now than ever and I'll be sharing some you know bizarre weird incidents that I've worked on myself that I've experienced you know really critical strange issues that have come up but yeah I just I'm really looking forward to sharing that with everybody else so please come along it's free you can join from your own home and we can all be there together to support each other you got a great community support and there's a lot of partners press media and an ecosystem and customers so congratulations gremlin having a conference on April 21st called the failover conference the qubits look at angle we'll have a digital reporter there we covering the news thanks for coming on and sharing and appreciate the time I'm Jeff we're here in the Palo Alto series with remote interview with gremlin around there failover conference April 21st it's really demonstrating in my opinion the at scale problems that we've been working on the industry now more applicable than ever before as we get post pandemic with kovin 19 thanks for watching be back [Music]

>> All right, Cool. We'll go with the first round of this, and we'll see how the central roles perfect. Uh, three, two and one. All right, I'm here with our guests. Chase Phelps, the director of sports science at Stanford University. Chase has an amazing background, and I was fortunate enough to work underneath him at Stanford. Chase is more than versatile. He has a deep understanding in regards to human physiology, but also the technology involved in monitoring athletes and performance in general. So, Chase, I'll let you take it away here, and I can't talk about yourself and the journey that you tell to get to where you are. I personally heard it multiple times. It's quite interesting. And for those listeners out there is going to be a good experience to hear exactly how someone chases esteem, Got to where he is, how the road's not always quite a straight line. >> Well, I appreciate you having me on II. You must be getting the checks in the mail to have that type of intro because that's way over the top on how good I am with my job. But I appreciate it. Um, so I think for me. You know, it started, I think, for a lot of us being in the gym as an athlete, Uh, you know, kind of being one of those guys has gotta work harder. Teo, you know, catch up with the other people who are coming naturally talented. So I started office of your general meathead in the gym in high school, doing all the dumb lab bench incline bench declined, bench checked back into, you know, all the flies, you, Khun Dio, and kind of started to figure out that, ah, I needed, you know, um or scientific way, I guess toe train myself and started out going to a velocity sports informants and, you know, one of those big kind of box performance gyms and got hooked up really, really lucky. Got hooked up with some people who at the time, I didn't know where were ahead of the game, but kind of started giving me the wise behind, you know, all the things I was doing in the gym and sort of kind of carbon that path for laying the foundation. So to say so I went to Undergrad, play the cross in college, Um, and they're so science piece started the internships to be a traditional sec coach on the floor, huh? I did. Let's see. Old Dominion. Radford, Virginia Attack. I AMG performance. Um, you know, just kind of laying the coaching trenches, laying down in the trenches, trying tow, kind of get myself the experience necessary to move ahead of Attritional SEC coach. So I got really lucky and that I got a job at Hampton University is an assistant. And within about seven months of being there, the director at the time up and left and they had nobody to help out with football, they have to take over. And really at an age that was way too young for me to be in that role, and so that was kind of my first, you know, probably fire experience, being twenty three years old, heading up, you know, the one double a football for him, still division one football team where I >> it >> was pretty pretty novice at the time. And while I didn't mess anything up to bad, it was definitely I would change a lot of what I did at the time. So I looked back on an experience that was extremely valuable. But from there, I actually had a stent where I was unemployed. So ah, little life lesson is, I took somebody's word on a job without having it written out and quit my job at Hampton, thinking I had this position set up and literally it fell through. The guy was like, Hey, listen, it's not gonna happen. I don't know what to tell you. I'm really sorry. So for seven months, I worked at local gyms, private personal training, training athletes on the side. You're basically doing anything I needed to do. Teo maintain coaching, but also keeping income going. Ah, and it's kind of funny because a lot of people don't appreciate that type of setting and the personal training. You're either strength coach. It's not personal training, you know. And, ah, a lot of the stuff that I do now, I still you know, I remember picking out because I was working with the client with rheumatoid arthritis, right? So, like your ability to to regress and a purple issues exercise selections for somebody who's sixty years old and is not very mobile translates very well to return to play in an athlete who just had maybe on a C L surgery on. So I looked back on that time is kind of a weird one in my life, but it was extremely valuable, you know, and my experiences. So I got really lucky. And the networking piece fell together and ended up working with the Naval Special Operations and kind of finding a role in the humor for men's branch. There, Bro is there for a little over three years. I >> it >> was just incredibly lucky to work with some of the people there, Mark Stevenson and and a lot of other guys who are still working there. They're still there now, but they're just they're pushing the field for doing a lot of things behind the scenes that I think really kind of kicked off the sports science. See Dick in the in the U. S and the last, you know, six to eight years on DH. So I was really fortunate toe kind of diversify. My experiences there really start looking at performance and training. I don't want to say like that buzzword of holistic, but just how my diversifying my ability to understand which discipline is doing, whether it's a mental performance coach, our nutritionist or sex, our physical therapist. But how can I better understand those fields, too? Then, you know, make sure that everything I'm doing is complimenting what they're doing on DH. So I was able to land the job at Stanford initially just to run the sports science department. But I also got a little coaching duties. On the side is I work with men soccer. So it's been, Ah, it's been all over the place, you know, traditionally in athletics, but, you know, a little bit of Gen file here. Besides, well, >> so Chase bast fully passed over Hiss lacrosse career, right? And how many was that? Multi time All America. Is that correct? >> I had a couple of years where else? Pretty successful. So, uh, >> and I think that's extremely important to highlight because being an athlete, you deal with all these departments firsthand. You see it from their perspective. And so one thing that Chase has really taught me, I was going forward learning about how you contain to challenge yourself, to put yourself into positions that other people are end. And how do you then think about your actions and what you're going to do as a sports scientist in regard to how and not on ly influences the athlete but the coaches and other staff around him and being an athlete, you firsthand get to experience how it is to have someone else trying to intervene on your daily routine. And that's also mention that Chase is now someone who on what level of ju jitsu he's in. But I know he's tough enough to beat the daylights out of me. And that's something as well has taught me. Is that put yourself in situations where you have to be a beginner again and challenge yourself to have tto learn from Square one. We get caught in these ruts of progress, progress, progress. You go from a beginner. When you first learned how to swing a baseball bat to now you're planned higher level travelling. Baseball is part of your life for myself. Basketball, the chase has taught me, is really embrace those opportunities of struggle and whatever way that comes in its shape and form and put you in those positions. So you have the ability to actually learn from that. And now mention that chase in regards to beat an athlete I think there's many things that we overlook as coaches. We apply the idea of an external load, right. We give them sets and wraps and weights and we write out these long workout for next six months what someone was going to dio. We can't predict the internal load and be an athlete. You understand how it is to not sleep, how it is to maybe stay out a little too late with some of your friends, but how that affects you in regards and athletic setting to reach the goals that you want to reach. So I want to dive in the topic a little bit about internal versus external load. That's something that you really challenged myself to learn about when I was with you. We talked about that in regards to H R V sleep and all the above said, I want to hear a little bit about your take on internal versus external load. What specifically is at turns >> out someone, he said, is being an athlete. I think that goes, You know, it's It's almost like every year that you are in the field. You separate yourself from what it feels like to go through the workouts and the daily grind. So to say right, it's really easy to write up a bard and have no thought process about how somebody feels on day six of a week where they've been pulling all day school two and a half hour, three hour practice our weights and you're like, Oh, man, we got a great dynamic effort. Lower body session finished office. Um, you know, if our glory body squats like you know it's It's just really easy to forget how how things can accumulate and how you know you're just trying to kind of that times get through it all and you head above water. Whereas we're thinking about optimizing, for they may be thinking about Hey, I just need to know what my head down and get through today. So I think it was a great point. But I think going on to the external love peace, obviously the U. S. In the last, you know, six, seventy nine years has exploded trying to catch up, maybe with Australian, The Europe of the world have been, um, really kind on the forefront of this, uh, objective collection of needs analysis for sport. You know, whether that's an external load of what they're doing, the mechanical demands of the sports. So how far they're running? What are the physical characteristics that you see? See environmental capabilities, as in, you know, beads with velocities, where they simply gotta Iran hominy times that they're going to change direction, really understanding the demands of the sport versus the internal loading piece, which you're going to be Howard, these individuals responding to those demands and I think the key word there being individual, we know that certain athletes are always going to be pushed and filtered into sports that there, uh, naturally, good at right. Like, I think we all tend a favor, things that we've been successful at. And as we kind of go up through our broken physical education system, we haven't done a really good job. I think in our country of kind of diversifying and scaling appropriate levels to make sure people are developing and multiple ways we kind of just like, Oh, you're good at this sport. Keep at it. You suck. You're out on. And I think if we were to kind of cater developmental, developmentally appropriate skill acquisition techniques and I'm stealing all this from a classmate of mine, Peter Bergen City proud, I think a better job of scaling, you know, developmental levels. I think you would see Maur athletes come out of that. That would be successful instead of just they only go on the tall guy put him under the basket. Um, you know, you would be able to develop more skills, but back to the internal load piece on understanding that, like I work with Ben Soccer Max, we're talking about this maybe your ago. I have a guy who logged twenty thousand meters in a playoff game last year, You know, that's over twelve and a half >> miles on run game. And he >> had played a game two days earlier and had been practicing for four months. And it comes to the question of like, How does somebody do that? Do that? Do you train them to do that? Do they just follow the program and all of us and they could do that. Or did there, I guess, internal demands to the sport over time. It took years. It took decades and in my opinion, took that after we to play the sport of high level, you know, for ten plus years to be able to get that cardiac adaptation of peripheral ability to be so efficient that they can run and change and cutting jump a tte that intensity. And so an athlete like that that that internal load, you know, they're going to be very, very effective and mobilizing energy. They're going to be very good of providing blood and oxygen to the to the outside of the body, whereas, you know, you take, not tow it, almost four. But like softball, that's a completely different athlete. And so if you were to ask them to have, ah, Despaigne similar demands, we know that internal load would be different. They're gonna have an inefficiency that, uh, you know what, I've election, Amy. A struggle to match the requirements of work or mechanical load that you're placing upon the athletes. So I think you know, it's really important as you start to look at that internal versus external. The external is critical, I think, on a lot of sports were just now identifying what is necessary to be successful on the field as and what they're doing. So you can start it that, you know, backwards, design and work. Your program to say here is ultimately what they have to be able to do. This is a worst case scenario on the field. This is how we should cater our return to play protocols so that we know we're working towards ultimately the ideal player. And that's sports and >> interesting. Yeah, not to cut you off. I did make some clarity here in regards to internal versus external loads. We talked about external load. We're talking about the amount of work someone actually does. Yes. So the amount of weight being lifted, how fast someone's running, how many pages someone can read, Right? And we end the guards, student, one intern and what side? Go ahead. >> It's really what is happening. What are you doing? What? How much of something? >> Something you're applying to the body. And then the internal load is the physiological changes that take place. And so the most basic concept is Hey, we're going to give you a weight program. We're gonna lift X amount of weight for X amount of days with the external load, intending to change the internal environment to grow muscle. And then the more muscle you grow, the more internal load you can handle. So you're adaptive capacity, that big bucket of how much you can handle a life. You become very efficient at handling that consistent external load and you increase your ability, whether it be efficiently or the magnitude. Insides that bucket to handle. A larger, I guess, external load in regards to having a larger internal capacity. And so what you're talking about is when our buck it's very specific Say we're playing soccer and we changed, too, you know, let's say tennis or in your case, saw Hall. You mentioned the softball player would struggle with soccer, and the soccer player would struggle with tennis because those external loads are so different than the internal capabilities of that individual. Is that correct? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think I think the higher level you go you definitely see that specificity of coordinated skills really kind of become a guest. Very nish. And what you typically say and I actually kind of think it's funny because I've said it. So then guilty as charged is that you'll look at a soccer player, you know, somebody who can play at the highest level and is sprinting doing all these different, you know, athletic exercises and then we'll be like, Man, they're bad athlete. They can't skip or look at that spa product. It's terrible and you know, you kind of take a step back and you're like, was the gold toe squatters, the gold toe score goals and play soccer? Um, and then some, you know, may argue. It will, you know, had the longevity of peace or they're gonna be in a more front injury, all that on and at the same time. And I think about that subconscious confidence when you put some money in a gym and a, you know, a new environment where they may not have done these things. They're very aware they're consciously in confident. They're sitting there going, I >> suck at this >> and they overthink it, right, and then you ask him to, like, go out on the field and kick a ball around, and they're doing these things. They're changing direction, which is basically a squat with shen angles changed. Uh, yeah, you know these things fluently without even thinking about it. So it's like their ability is there. It's just not in the right contact. >> Interesting. Yes, they bring up the concept of selling, being consciously aware, right? So they might be in a nervous kind of state. They're not familiar with the weight room, and that actually bring some level anxiety, possibly that true. And that itself may make the weight room instead of ah, use dresser, which is something very positive. It might be a distress, sir, and so they see that waiting is negative. And so now they're nervous toe workout and they have to work out, which makes the internal load even larger. So make this environment that kind of gets magnified. In regards to that. What other factors influence your internal load? Something I mentioned was that stress and obviously their external stressors, especially at Stanford, work very intelligent students who are having to go through rigorous testing in school. And it's a very competitive environment, not just athletically, but, um, you know, the education side as well through those stressors and past internal load. And if it does, how does that influenced the amount? External load? As a coach, you might provide? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it's always going to be multispectral. It's always going to be. It depends on who's who's the athlete. What's their background? And the supporter? The activity. You're asking to dio, um, the daily life of the twenty two hours that they're not with you. Are they hydrated? Are they eating properly? They fuelling for adequate activity. Are they getting enough sleep? Are they, you know, have a test for their psychosocial factors at play? Like their girlfriend or boyfriend just broke up with him. And I think all those things obviously have an impact Has been Aton and ton of focus placed on this type of, I guess, capturing that whole athlete. Whereas maybe, you know, years ago, you would look at tonnage and now people will look tonnage. And what that stress load is, what that academic load is Because, you know, research is coming out. Now that we know that these types of overloaded stressors and stresses the same stress of you know makes you resilient can break you down. So it's really the improper dozing and inability to cope with that load, and that's dressed, it creates the problems. But, um, you know, you look at athletes who are an exam week, there's research talking about that people hell less efficiently. They have immune issues. So you're seeing people get sick. You're seeing that inability to adapt and cope with the demands that are placed on him, being significantly altered by some other type of factor outside of a weight room or a field. Um, you know, I think the the fact that the collegiate environment is being more aware to that and teams they're trying to push practice in the morning. A little later, they're tryingto manipulate schedules so that its aren't just running straight from class. But they have a little time between do get some type of snack and to some moment to themselves toe. Take a couple of rest before they go out on the flip side, right after practice. Are they running directly into Ah, you know, a test or something? Or are they actually will have a little moments of themselves where they can kind of down, regulate, take everything in and then move on? I think that those types of things, well or not, massive are significant because they happened ten to twenty times every day over the span of weeks in years. And that's really the problems, that chronic buildup of a over activated, sympathetic response that maybe exacerbated by an athletes Taipei, their personalities or type a person. Yeah. Hey, I'm driven. I'm a pi performer. This is what I do, or maybe some of the lifestyle stuff. So maybe that there's somebody who you know is just pumping refined sugars and other body and creating a flux and blood sugar regulation that again mobilizes cortisol, a sympathetic response. And next thing you know, you've just in the span of three hours tagged on six different things, albeit slightly different, that had the same outcome on the system. So that internal response becomes very, very sensitive. Teo, everything you're doing because it's that chronic build up that's really taken its toll on it. >> Interesting. So he bring up the idea of the sympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system being broken down. I guess being partnered with, I should say with the parasympathetic nervous system, right, that makes up your autonomic nervous systems. So for those you're not familiar. Sympathetic nervous systems, your fighter flight. It mobilizes energy. It's looked at to be very important for survival. If we saw a lion during evolutionary times would help us increase our heart rate, Increased auction supply, mobilized energy so we could run away from a lion. But then we had the parasympathetic aspect. That branch would help regulate rest. And I just kind of the repair and rebuild process. Now, with that, you mentioned the hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system. Now, does this get out of whack? Sometimes if you're an athlete, your individual were chronically stressed. And if so, does that affect some of your endocrinology? So how your body responds? And what kind of tips can you have No muse with your athletes or yourself to get yourself back into a parasympathetic state? Yes, >> that's a great point. I think the and not tow to correct you. I think what you're saying is absolutely right. I think the key is, is not constantly counter act sympathetic, but is to bring the body back into a more balanced ability to appropriately turn on sympathetic into appropriately eternal in Paris. Sympathetic and what you typically see, and I said it so I think you're totally right, is sympathetic, does become the primary driver, but it isn't all about just turning on sympathetic. It's it's having the ability to use both when you need it. And I think a lot of times the door or the window to that is to drive parasympathetic activity on so that it can kind of restore itself. Ah, and then the goal. Once you're kind of an ability where you have a little bit more of stability and that is, then tow, have access to both. >> So you talk to me about me. Interrupt chase. But this is something to remind me completely where, if someone is chronically sympathetic, let's say they're in a game situation. This can goes back. That being stressed out, they might have hyperactivity, sympathetic nervous system and correct if I'm wrong, this decentralize is sorry. Desensitize is the frontal cortex and reduces some individuals ability to make decisions, especially when fatigue begins to set in. Because you have multiple areas of stress coming to body fatigue, the actual stress emotional of the situation and in the person's internal Billy to regulate that, that's something you talking to me about? Spoken with me about while Stanford. I found that topic to be extremely interesting and do the fact that it's completely universal. Whether you're an athlete or your individual going in for a job interview, they kind of fall under the same umbrella. Is this the case? >> Yes, excuse me. So I think ultimately it's a fine line, right? So I think the sympathetic nervous system actually has been shown to enhance some cognitive activities, right? So it does increase that acute ability, toe recall some information and at the same time and over driven response of it can almost shut everything down. And that's where you see people kind of like getting up hyperventilating and not being able to perform and really kind of altering some type of, um, thoughtful, logical, rational action. So I think it comes down to two primary things. It's a primary and secondary appraisal, and this is a psychology based concept. But I think it applies basically everything in performance and primary, the athlete, the person. Whoever is going to say what is happening, and this is subconscious and happening in different aspects of the Iranian or not I fell. Missed what? Your body goes, What's? What is this? Right? So I looked at the analogy of you walk into a bar. All right, You scan the bar, You have a very, very fast Ah, action arms. Excuse me? Decision about what is in that bar. Is that a threat? Do you see a bunch of hell's angels with guns and, you know, baseball bats sitting there? Or do you see a bunch of friends? Right, So and then it's that same split. Second, a secondary appraisal happens to the primary. That's secondary being. Do I have the resources to cope with this? And that is really what dictates what type of response and house is going to send. Oh, are the brain will send to the body to stimulate what side of the annulment? Nervous system. Right. So if I walk in, I say what? I don't like this. Tio. Hey, I've been in this scenario before. It didn't go well. That's when that sympathetic sent a kick on because I got to get out of here verses. I walk into that same place. It's a bunch of friends, You know, It's my old buddy from college. You're gonna have a completely different mobilization of your transmitters of hormones. Because of your perception of the stressor is completely different. And you mentioned you stress distress. And I think that that's the case for everything, because, uh, not to go on a rant. But if you if you take an athlete who loves running, that stress of running is completely different than an athlete who doesn't like running right. So their perception of an activity, albeit the same activity, will have a different psycho physiological manifestation of stress or load on the body. And so I think, as we talk about mental toughness with our athlete, even all of that ultimately comes down to have you put them in such situations to prepare them, have confidence in them. And that's what's going to dictate some of these positive body responses that you'll see because they'll walk up to that playing go. Yep. Done this a million times, and that is where you kind of have that mental resilience versus I don't know what's gonna happen. I've never done this before. If I miss, it's going to be the game. Aunt. I think when we talk about all of performance in psychology and physiology. It's so intertwined you cannot separate them, and we like to separate things we like to have absolute. We like to wear a monitor on a wrist or a chest that tells us we're tired or that tells us we've been too stressed. But the reality is, is that the individual differences in perception of stress and my ability, my body's ability to adapt to that stress based on what type of internal environment is kind of walking around twenty four hours a day is going to dictate everything. And that's why it's really tough and in a team environment for us to just blast everybody and say We're gonna stress, you know, we're going to internal load monitoring by H. R. V. Well, that's fantastic and I think there's there's marriage of that. So I'm not saying there isn't what. You better make sure you know a lot about your athletes. You better make sure you have the time to learn about their personalities, how they handle things, What type of family experiences, a fat, what type of things go into them making decisions about what they're experiencing. >> Gotcha. So that I couldn't agree more. Yeah, that's beautifully said one things you mentioned. There was the idea of HRT, but also the idea of perception. So H R v being a reflection on Amit nervous system and compared to your own baseline when your H R V numbers lower means you have less variability that, essentially inferring a higher level of sympathetic drive when you're HIV is higher, infers a more balanced eight or more parasympathetic state, essentially less sympathetic, right? Right. And so we start using H R V, and we talk about that as an internal tool. They also mentioned the idea ofthe having individuals be in situations that are similar to that of sport. Do you think there's a time and place for real time H R V feedback and HIV training? And would you possibly put someone in a situation where they're trying to score that goal? Maybe you fatigued them with, say, a sled push or prowler push and then you have there HIV tank. And they have to perform a difficult technical task in attempt to have them auto regulate that H R V. So they can perform that task successfully, making training and skill development much more specific and begin to messed together. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's biofeedback. Wanna one, right? That's that's ah, thought technology, heart, math. All those companies out there using that with Forman psychologists to see how people a handle the stressors implied on them. But how did they bounce back? So the military has been doing this for years and live monitoring H R V on some of the operators and then watching them perform. You know, they're training, going through selection and training bases where they have Tio ah, handle extremely dynamic and challenging environments where they're under watch, their being scrutinised every step of the way. And so what we've actually seen is that people who on average, you know it's not. There's anomalies of force. People who take the hit right, so you'll see a drop in H R B or increasing sympathetic tone. They will actually bounce back, though, so having a stressor impact your your your body is is normal. But the ability to rebound and kind of come back to those norms within a relatively quick period of time is what is critical for high performance. You know, they talked about having a five minute or a three hundred feet average prior to that activity to get a baseline. What we found in some of the research coming out now you can actually probably cut it down to one two, three minutes. Right? So it becomes much more, I guess. Logistically feasible. Tohave guys sit around for one to three minutes, kind of collect that boarding for baseline and then go about their day. And that's really critical to get that that daily baseline. Because as we talked about, if you're on day six of AH long week, your body is functioning and flowing. Ah, and kind of repair mode. It's trying to keep up with what you've been putting it through. So each day that you wake up, you are gonna be slightly different than what you do where for. So it's not an apples, apples. You gotta look at your ability to flux in that Alice static load and your body's proactive decision making to try and match what it was doing in the prior day's training. Evolution >> Dacha. So H r v itself. I refer to the check engine light because it doesn't necessarily come from one area and come from emotional you, Khun, Stub your toe. You can have a lower H R V. And some of the things I've been reading about lately and talking to you about office, podcast or text message and kindly enough, you respond to my random texts at nine thirty at night with a slew of articles and ten questions, has been a nutritional side right and the idea of low level systemic inflammation or inadequate nutrition. What I mean by that is, I will put in food into her body under the assumption that this is going to give us a positive effect. Really. Sometimes the food that we put into our body are causing a stressor on our system, because either, eh, they're so foreign to us in regards to weigh their process or be too simple sugars. And them and I mean simple in terms of your eating a fruit loop have an effect on our body that can take us down a road that necessarily isn't positive for adaptation. And just like H. R. V. Is affected by your psychological perception, I've been read a little bit about H. R V is a kind of systemic monitor and how it could be influenced by nutrition in regards that nutritional aspect. I know we've talked a little bit about biomarkers and some of the diving deep into internal medicine and understanding that our body is very complex. It's made of of all these subsystems and how one subsystem acts might affect how another subsystem acts. And as we gain these risk factors of an adequate nutrients status, our overall risk profile increases and the idea that we might have an emergent pattern in terms of illness manifests increases. So I want to hear some of your thoughts on some of the internal medicine where that's going in regards to bio markers for athletics, human performance and just general wellness. I know you're not a physician and you're not ordering bloodwork and diagnosing off blood work. But being a sports scientist, I do think it's important to appreciate and understand some of these concepts, and you have a great indepth knowledge in this area. So I love to hear a little more about it. >> Yeah, no, I think that's an area and by no means a mine expert, right? I just read a lot of things and copy what other people say so I have to always say that. No, that's what we always hang her hat on is that if you go through the research, you're basically taking somebody else's thoughts interpreting to your own. So my experiences with this, our personal and what I've seen in a professional setting and all kind of touched on the personal piece because I think you know, as we talked about being an athlete and understanding what people go through, our own experiences can drive a lot of how we make decisions with their athletes or are clients or whoever working with and that basically, for twenty five years of my life I've been on some form of allergy medicine allergies, shot decongestant Z Pac to get rid of a sinus infection, you name it. I had, I had and I had multiple sci affections every year and not one time. I want your nose and throat, Doctor Otto. You know, allergy specialists now, one time to never anyone ever bring up what you're putting in your body. And you know, it took you know, I went toe doctor Dima Val seminar last summer and it took ah, somebody while he's very good, but it took somebody to kind of like, say, Hey, man, like it's not just isolating the symptom and given you an anti histamine or something like that, you got to think that you're in a systemic state of inadequacy. Your body doesn't have the ability to recognize normal nutrients as you eat things. But then also, it doesn't have the ability to recognize, um, some of the I guess the things that are supposed to be normal now become pathological. And it's just complete dysfunctional cycle. And so for me, I literally just He said, Hey, do me a favor. Stop eating dairy. Okay? Yeah, I love cheese, but we'll do that. And I literally and within three to four days, every single allergies symptom. I had one away. I haven't had any issues for seven and a half months. While legal thing, >> I >> haven't had any issues. Haven't got sick once. And it was just one thing come to find out. I have a lactose allergy. And not only does it didn't affect me like g I distress, but it effects chronic states of allergies. So my body was perceiving things as, ah, the enemy and the immune system was essentially creating that inflammatory response to deal with them s So I think that first and foremost, I started just looking at Maybe people are eating things that they may have a low grade flamer. Inflammatory response. Tio, Um, I was taking and sets staking insides like there were Andy since I was sixteen years old. You know, being an athlete, you get off him a practice, your knees hurt, ankle hurts. Whatever happens, you know, you just take him so that you can, um >> you know, keep >> on going toe to practice. The next day, um, I was taking CPAC's >> is >> taking prednisone. All these things basically put my spotty in a state of in a state of shock to a point where it can actually regulate normal. >> So just take that >> into my work and special environment. And we have athletes who were under that significant academic stress, social stress and the physical stress. Well, we also see is they're just like me. And then they were taken and said they were taken. You know, prednisone. They're taking quarter to steroids for asthma, exercise induced asthma. They were taking all these things that basically is driving the body into a state of alarm where it doesn't have a normalcy to it. So we're not seeing the immune system actually do its job. We're seeing chronic sympathetic response basically to everything that's being put into the body. So with that low grade inflammation that's happening over weeks, months, years, you get that inability to handle external loads, then that's where than internal load becomes so critical. But what once is, maybe a resilient person now they're getting the sniffles every three weeks now they're walking around with some type of tell, ephemeral and an itis. Ah, no. I think that we so easily look at Oh, they landed on it funny and practice. Oh, they took a bump or a bruise for somebody. But maybe that is exacerbated. Or maybe that's highly sensitive due to the fact that the body isn't able to function under normal circumstances. >> No, that's there's a lot of topics in that one dive into you. Um, I guess what is immediate topics that's most applicable for individuals, the idea of in said's and how? I mean, when I was in ah, middle school, I must have taken maybe six, four, five before a game when I was playing, and it felt nothing. Elements. I can only imagine what that's doing to my internal, You know, my, my style making my gastric system and how much to chewed up. Yeah, that's a lot of information that's come out regarding tendon healing and the adaptations of it, um, you've taught me well, I think the first one to bring this to my attention on some of the detriments of and said itself and some of the alternative we could possibly have, such as your human and things that don't necessarily tear our system up. Um, you give any thoughts on that and how that might play a role than Okay. We have this functional medicine world. Now, how do we apply that into, you know, physical therapy. And if we're trying to have ten and adaptations in regards to Isometrics, you might be doing them to increase longevity and reduced to an apathy or for film someone up with insides. Are we really getting the bang for the buck we want to get or we just causing more harm than good? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, you said it right there and that. Are you taking that risk reward on using that, like, a short term? Ah, you know that hill, Teo, is it overriding what you truly want in the long term? Okay, so we talked about adaptation you mentioned Well, we've seen that and sides actually have. Ah, a destruction of satellite cells. So when you're normally building muscle and you're having some of these repair sells, Memento help stimulate regeneration and says, Well, actually blunt that response to Seo X one and two being the primary enzymes associated with that, we'll actually get shut down. Ah, And when they dio, you're literally stopping your body from adapting. Growing. So I talked to my soccer team all the time about I'm like, does it. You guys, You want you're wearing the sleepless shirts. You want to fill those things out? Let's not wait from what already isn't there, you know? And I think you know when we start looking at As you mentioned it, healing in the early stage returned to play. And now I'm never going to say, Hey, you know, you shouldn't do that. That's always up to the doctors and the medical professionals. But I think that there is lack of thought for our long term. Ah, mala dictations. So you mentioned, do we alter college and proliferation for the expense of just taking down some swelling and irritation? Maybe that paper's the response can be better handled by Tylenol or whatever else somebody thinks because I think it's critical. Especially, you know, you see the two different primary types intelligent Type one and Type three. They've seen that there is a blunted response and how that tendon regenerates. And so I think, you know, little things like that. Those conversations you have with your athletic trainer or your doctor and be like, Hey, is this absolutely necessary? I'm not questioning your rationale. But does this athlete need that? Or is there something else we can do? Is going to make sure that when I am doing the Afar or whatever before ISOs to maximize ah tended thickness or tendon restructuring or whatever I'm doing. Are we going to the baby? Out with the bath water? Are we gonna hurt something, You know, for the expense of you know what's easy and what we know from a Western medical model. >> Yeah, that's it. Very interesting moment. Thanks. By the way, I wanna clarify For those not familiar with terminology and says or non sorry, chase, I letyou go ahead there up the real quick and sense of things like ibuprofen and Advil around non steroidal anti inflammatory. Um, what's the d stand for? I'm forgetting right now. Feels stupid. Now draw. Go. Okay. There you go. Yeah, perfect things like ibuprofen and no Advil. I should take like six angel's before I play basketball. Because when it came out, I knew no better. It made me feel better and take more than barrier against coming out that we're really tearing up our system. What's interesting is we look at some of the inflammation studies. You look at older adults. It brings up the idea that as we age, we get in such an inflammatory state. We're taking things like insects, which are known to possibly reduce adaptation shins. And individuals were healthy. It actually increases muscle growth and some of the older adults because their level of inflammation, it's so high systemically that taking something as like an insider Advil, which we think is bad, actually increases adaptation. And they just show I just read a paper. Probably thirty men, too. For this that showed Curcumin has a potential effects to do the same, which might be a healthier alternative to end, says regards to reducing inflammation.