>>Hi, I'm Peter Burress. And welcome to another cute conversation. This one from BMC Helix is immersion days in Santa Clara Marriott in Santa Clara, California One of the biggest challenges that every IittIe organization faces. In fact, every business is how to start merging greater control through I t sm as well as greater change and evolve ability of systems through Dev ops. It's a big topic. A lot of folks looking at how best to do it. We've got a great person here to talk to us about it. Dick Stark is the president CEO of right star Dick. Welcome to the Cube. >>Well, thanks very much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity beyond the Cube here. >>Excellent. Well, why don't we start? Tell us a little about right start? >>Sure. Right. Stars in I t sm consultancy and we happen to be a dev Ops consulted to say at the same time, we're also a BMC solution provider and lasting solution provider. Now, we've been a BMC solution provider for for 16 years, so we've been in this space a long time and we've earned several accolades up along the way. We made it into the Forrester I t s m service provider. It's not called a Magic Quadrant because that's what God gardener uses. But instead it's a wave report. And so we made it sort of into the far right hand quadrant there. And if you added up all the points we ended up in North America being rated number five out of all the different idea Sam Consultancy. So it's very proud about that. And then last year with BMC, we were the North American Solution provider of the year in the D S. M space. >>Well is an export person, I can tell you Congratulations. Those waves very seriously. Let's jump into this question, though off what does I t. S m from a technology and people in process standpoint have to do to accommodate some of the changes that are being founded and defusing out of the Hole Dev Ops world, which is just having an enormous impact on our I t thinks and does >>it really has. And you know, we've been in the space a long time and I t s m Sometimes I tell the words are interchangeable and there are about if you can believe this about three million people That ended up getting an Idol certification of some short like an Idol Foundation certificate. And over time, that's been have been a really a big, big deal. However, Idol now is lost, its luster just a little bit. And it's allowed Dev ops to sort of sneak in or add dollar whatever you won't want to call it, and I'd listen. Standing still, though, they've bounced back and bounce back in a hard way. And they've they've come up with what's now called Idle for an Idol For was just released this this year, and it takes some of those Dev ops principles, and it has its own value stream as well and is a result Idle for or agile idol or whatever you wanna call it now is taking a little bit stronger position. And when I say Dev ops principles, it's things like Collaborate. It's things like promote, it's It's things like operate and automate. It's It's It's all about it again. It's all about collaboration in some of these other values that that you'll see in Dev ops. I guess what what happened is we spent a lot of time on the Idol side of things, and we did things for process sake and a good example would be changed management and spent a lot of time putting together is change management processes per this idol framework. Okay, And what what happened is that a lot of the users then rebelled a little bit because it might take longer to go through and fill out all the paperwork of It's not paperwork the online tool set then to do a change than to actually perform the change itself. So I don't got a little bit of a bad rap. And so that's where this whole Dev ops thing has come in. And the whole idea right now is to get Dev and Ops under the Shame umbrella, because that's not typically very used to do. But it's, but it's certainly happening. >>Well, let's talk about why that intersections happening, right? So I'm gonna I'm gonna show a little bit of history from my perspective as well, you know, I told began, First of all, it started in some government agencies many years ago, but it started as the basis of it was How do we take better care of the assets with an I T. Which at the time were mainly hardware. In many respects, what we've seen happen over the last 25 30 years that Idol has been an extent. Is that the nature of the assets that I t recognizes? His acknowledges delivering value for the business has changed. We've gone from hardware to infrastructure is code. That's where Dev Ops is so many respects. What you're saying is that Iittle is now trying to bring the best of what it means to do a good job of asset management with a new class of assets. Namely, software is code infrastructures code, and that's where we have to have that marriage. I got that right. >>That's that's correct. And you don't want to have silent silos. You want to be a silo buster if if anything else. And I just wanted to mention something else that I think is kind of fun along with this Idol. Four. We now do what's called the Mars Lander simulation traded it replaced. If you've heard of the Apollo 13 simulation, will Mars four, even though it's idle for specific, it's really all about Dev ops, and I took the Mars board just about a month or so ago, and it's a lot of fun. You sit down and the whole objective is to get get to Mars and you're a business. So and you're going to be selling the data that you're going to collect along along the way. And so the whole idea is to is to make a profit, and you have all these different roles that you play. When I went through it, I was the release manager then. But you might have a business analyst. You might have a service desk person. You have vendors and a it's it's really it's very realistic that and typically like a lot of large enterprises, you start playing the game and it's just chaos, and you have to go back and try this over and over again until essentially you get it right. And I was surprised how easy it is to get sucked in. If you're in a big enterprise, your silent, you have a specific role that you have to d'oh and you have instructions how you're supposed to do that and you want to stick to it. Whatever you know, whatever your assignment is, you have to do that. But that's not the right thing to Dio. Remember, it's about collaboration. It's about transparency. It's been it's about posting your goals, posting the results and moving forward from from there. And so I was surprised how I got sucked into it. And so I can understand why we need to make some progress in this space. And it's all about getting people to change their behavior a little bit in some of these new tool set certainly help >>well, as well. You're going back to what you said. He used to be the three R's of any regime or rolls responsibilities and relationships, and so the roles have are evolving. But often it's just in name only the responsibilities. You know today it's still code. It still has to run on hard, where it's not a bunch of hamsters, they're doing things. But as you said, it's really the relationships amongst the various actors as we introduce more business people. As technology gets put into position to generate more revenue or to do more with customer experience, the relationships are being pressured, are being really pushed to evolve. So how do you see in your practice in right stars practice. How do you see the relationships between Dev ops and I T s M and the business starting to evolve so that you can have amore coherent, comprehensive view of how you make sister? Well, >>I think in that particular case, it's gonna take some time. I mean, it's not gonna happen overnight. I mean, that's why you have agile coaches, or that's while you have the scales agile, or the safe framework is because people don't get it. And they need to understand how to work together better with others. And so it's not gonna happen by just implementing a new new tool set turning the key and then say, OK, everything's gonna be fine. It's good to get the integration between the different tool sets. And the technology is certainly there to do that. But without having some instruction to begin with and having the door in users cooperate. You're not going to see that kind of kind of performance improvement or cost statements or whatever it is that you're looking for. You're not going to see that >>they're one of the biggest challenges in any changes. Abandonment. The user's ultimately abandoned. So as you look a tte. The ideas M tool set that you're utilizing mainly from being right is it is that there's a degree of there's always a degree of pedagogic tool away, it says. Here's how you should do things. What you're discovering is that tool set is really catalyzing. Helping to catalyze positive changes in your mind within a lot of your customer base is, well, the >>thing about Helix, and I'm very excited about this because we're making a lot of good progress with. He likes our customer base that we have right now and give you a good example. George Washing University were based in a D C. Area day. If they are, too, they've been a long time remedy customer. We've moved them to Helix, and then, just recently, when I say recently started a year ago in August, they moved to the BMC Chap Cat box platform. Then, this past August, they totally went cold turkey with chatbots throughout the entire university. That makes a tremendous difference in the performance and not just performance, but also on the cost and the efficiency that the university, particularly from a service management perspective, is providing to its university employees and to its students, just like you mentioned today in the keynote session that it's all about mobility. And practically practically all the students there rely on their their cellphone day in and day out. And so when they have a question at G W. If it's how do I get a new account? How do I get a park parking permit? G on the wireless in my dorm room isn't working. You don't pick up the phone and call. Nobody does that you texted at. And this is a chap off its power by IBM Watson, and it works great. And there's lots of good things that are gonna come out of that. For example, students, I think they probably still have to turn paper sent. You know, maybe that's all Elektronik Lee delivered, but I think you might still have to print out a paper and turn it into your professor. You know, I'm not sure, but bluebirds Anyway, you're probably you're probably gonna do this late at night when the service desk is an open. So what do you do if you can't get the printer to work? Well, you pick up your cell phone, you text in that That the issue and bingo. You've got a response. So those are the sorts of things that are gonna make for a tremendous amount of impact, and it's gonna cause people to change their behavior in really a good way. Another good example. We have another longtime hospital customer. They have a 24 by seven service desk. They're huge, and they pay a lot of money to operate that 24 by seven. But they hardly get any call said at night. Right? Because not that many people work. So why don't they just turn that and you start using chatbots and think of that the r A. Y. It's just incredible. And I think you're going to see more. And that more situations like that as we move forward. >>Dick start President CEO of right Starr. Yep. Thanks very much for being too. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. Okay. >>And what's going on? Peter Burress. You've been watching other cube conversation from BMC Helix immersion days in Santa Clara. Thanks very much. Next time

foreign [Music] to the special presentation of cloud native at scale the cube and Platform 9 special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development we're here with dick Lee who's the Chief Architect and co-founder of platform nine pick great to see you Cube alumni we we met at openstack event in about eight years ago or later earlier uh when openstack was going great to see you and great congratulations on the success of platform nine thank you very much yeah you guys been at this for a while and this is really the the Year we're seeing the the crossover of kubernetes because of what happens with containers everyone now was realized and you've seen what docker's doing with the new Docker the open source Docker now just the success of containerization and now the kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming bearing fruit this is huge exactly yes and so as infrastructure as code comes in we talked to baskar talking about super cloud I met her about you know the new Arlo our our lawn um you guys just launched the infrastructure's code is going to another level and it's always been devops infrastructure is code that's been the ethos that's been like from day one developers just code I think you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon connect the dots for us what is the state of infrastructure as code today so I think I think um I'm glad you mentioned it everybody or most people know about infrastructure as code but with kubernetes I think that project has evolved at the concept even further and these days it's um infrastructure as configuration right so which is an evolution of infrastructure as code so instead of telling the system here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it you know do step a b c and d uh instead with kubernetes you can describe your desired State declaratively using things called manifest resources and then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify so I think it's it's a even better version of infrastructure as code yeah and that really means it's developer just accessing resources okay that declare okay give me some compute stand me up some turn the lights on turn them off turn them on that's kind of where we see this going and I like the configuration piece some people say composability I mean now with open source so popular you don't have to have to write a lot of code this code being developed and so it's integration it's configuration these are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation machine learning assisting open source because you've got a lot of code that's what you're hearing software supply chain issues so infrastructure as code has to factor in these new Dynamics can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of as open source grows the glue layers the configurations the integration what are the core issues I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity right so um You know despite its expressive Power Systems like kubernetes and declarative apis let you express a lot of complicated and complex Stacks right but you're dealing with um hundreds if not thousands of these yaml files or resources and so I think you know the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key Challenge and opportunity in this space I wrote a LinkedIn post today those comments about you know hey Enterprise is the new breed the trend of SAS companies moving uh our consumer consumer-like thinking into the Enterprise has been happening for a long time but now more than ever you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in now with open source it's speed simplification and integration right these are the new Dynam power dynamics for developers so as companies are starting to now deploy and look at kubernetes what are the things that need to be in place because you have some I won't say technical debt but maybe some shortcuts some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure as code people have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructures code happen yes but to do it at scale yes is harder what's your take on this what's your view it's hard because there's a proliferation of of methods tools Technologies so for example today it's a very common for devops and platform engineering tools I mean sorry teams to have to deploy a large number of kubernetes clusters but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters and they're using a wide range of tools to do this right for example maybe ansible or terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the Clusters and then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the Clusters so you have this sprawl of tools you also you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with the more resources you have to manage and there's a risk of drift that people call that where you know you think you have things under control but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them so I think there's real need to kind of unify simplify and try to solve these problems using a smaller more unified set of tools and methodology apologies and that's something that we try to do with this new project Arlon yeah so so we're going to get to our line in a second I want to get to the yr lawn you guys announced that at argocon which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the community meeting by Intuit they had their own little day over their headquarters but before we get there um Bhaskar your CEO came on and he talked about super cloud at our inaugural event what's your definition of super cloud if you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical how would you look at the super cloud Trend that's emerging has become a thing what's your what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative well it's it's uh funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today speaking to you earlier today but I think based on what you said I I already get kind of some of the the gist and the the main Concepts it seems like uh super cloud the way I interpret that is you know um clouds and infrastructure um programmable infrastructure all of those things are becoming commodity in a way and everyone's got their own flavor but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business Problems by perhaps trying to abstract away you know all of those various implementations and then building uh um better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems yeah I remember it's a great great definition I remember not to date myself but back in the old days you know IBM had its proprietary Network operating system so the deck for the mini computer vintage deck net and sna respectively um but tcpip came out of the OSI the open systems interconnect and remember ethernet beat token ring out so not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there look just look up token ring you'll see if I never heard of it it's IBM's you know a connection for the internet at the layer two is Amazon the ethernet right so if TCP could be the kubernetes and containers abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history so at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value there's been an abstraction Yes somewhere yes what's your reaction to that I think um this is um I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and I forgot who originated it but um I think the saying goes like there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection right and we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified you know Computing and infrastructure management and I believe this trend is going to continue right the next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers I think that that's really a yeah it's going to continue it's interesting just when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on the rise we've been reporting for many years now that arm's going to be huge it has become true if you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds Azure AWS Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody the stuff that they're doing with the Silicon and the physics and the atoms the pro you know this is where the Innovation they're going so deep and so strong at is the more that they get that gets gone they have more performance so if you're an app developer wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd want to have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures code or infrastructure for configuration for provisioning for managing services and you're seeing that today with service meshes a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in this community of kubecon which we'll be covering so that brings up the whole what's next you guys just announced our lawn at argocon which came out of Intuit we've had Mariana Tesla out our supercloud event she's a CTO you know they're all in the cloud so there contributed that project where did Arlon come from what was the origination what's the purpose why our lawn why this announcement yeah so um the the Inception of the project this was the result of um us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier which is complexity right with all of this these clouds these infrastructure all the variations around and you know compute storage networks and um the proliferation of tools we talked about the ansibles and terraforms and kubernetes itself you can think of that as another tool right we saw a need to solve that complexity problem and especially for people and users who use kubernetes at scale so when you have you know hundreds of clusters thousands of applications thousands of users spread out over many many locations there there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management right so that means fewer tools more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency and and that's why um you know we built um Arlon and we built it um recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved so Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel it instead rests on the shoulders of several Giants right so for example kubernetes is one building block get Ops and Argo CD is another one which provides a very structured way of applying configuration and then we have projects like cluster API and cross-plane which provide apis for describing infrastructure so Arlon takes all of those building blocks and um builds a thin layer which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state so that's that's kind of the Inception and what's the benefit of that what does that give what does that give the developer the user in this case the developers the the platform engineer team members the devops engineers they uh get a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters but also applications and configurations they get away a system for provisioning configuring deploying and doing life cycle Management in a in a much simpler way okay especially as I said if you're dealing with a large number of applications so it's like an operating fabric if you will yes for them okay so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the abstraction or thin layer below is the infrastructure we talked a lot about what's going on below that yeah above our workloads at the end of the day and I talked to cxos and um I.T folks that are now devops Engineers they care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work they want to spend their time getting in the weeds figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened they need observability and they need to to know that it's working that's right and as my workloads running if effectively so how do you guys look at the workload side because now you have multiple workloads on these fabric right so workloads so kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can you know tell kubernetes I want to run this container this particular way or you can use other projects that are in the kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like k-native where you can express your application in more at a higher level right but what's also happening is in addition to the workloads devops and platform engineering teams they need to very often deploy the applications with the Clusters themselves clusters are becoming this commodity it's it's becoming this um host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it in many cases it's like an appliance right so devops teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down clusters are becoming more extremely like an ec2 instance spin up a cluster we've heard people used words like that that's right and before Arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as I explained so with our own you can kind of express everything together you can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this Ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies you can describe all of that using something we call the profile and then you can stamp out your app your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very essentially standard that creates a mechanism it's standardized declarative kind of configurations and it's like a Playbook you just deploy it now what's this between say a script like I have scripts I can just automate Scripts or yes this is where that um declarative API and um infrastructures configuration comes in right because scripts yes you can automate scripts but the order in which they run matters right they can break things can break in the middle and um and sometimes you need to debug them whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and Powerful you just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of uh figures it out and there are these things called controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire to say it's a much more powerful expressive and reliable way of getting things done so infrastructure as configuration is built kind of on it's a superset of infrastructures code because different Evolution you need Edge restaurant's code but then you can configure The Code by just saying do it you're basically declaring and saying go go do that that's right okay so all right so Cloud native at scale take me through your vision of what that means someone says hey what is cloud native at scale mean what's success look like how does it roll out in the future as you that future next couple years I mean people are now starting to figure out okay it's not as easy as it sounds kubernetes has value we're going to hear this year kubecon a lot of this what is cloud native at scale mean yeah there are different interpretations but if you ask me when people think of scale they think of a large number of deployments right geographies many you know supporting thousands or tens or millions of users there's that aspect to scale there's also um an equally important aspect of scale which is also something that we try to address with Arlon and that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this right so in order to describe that desired State and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in in relatively simple terms right and so we want uh the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible so there's I think there's going to be a number and there have been a number of cncf and Cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well and Arlon kind of Falls in in that category okay so I'll put you on the spot where I've got kubecon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this seg series out before what do you expect to see at kubecon issue it's the big story this year what's the what's the most important thing happening is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the the people jockeying for leadership I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space on the overall systems map about the different areas get runtime and observability in all these different areas what's the where's the action where's the smoke where's the fire where's the piece where's the tension yeah so uh I think uh one thing that has been happening over the past couple of coupons and I expect to continue and and that is uh the the word on the street is kubernetes getting boring right which is good right or I mean simple well um well maybe yeah invisible no drama right so so the rate of change of the kubernetes features and and all that has slowed but in a positive way um but um there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff if you look at a stack necessary for uh hosting applications based on kubernetes they're just still too many moving Parts too many uh components right too much complexity I go I keep going back to the complexity problem so I expect kubecon and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce a further simplifications uh to to the stack yeah Vic you've had a storied career VMware over decades with them uh obviously 12 years for the 14 years or something like that big number co-founder here platform I think it's been around for a while at this game uh we man we'll talk about openstack that project you we interviewed at one of their events so openstack was the beginning of that this new Revolution I remember the early days was it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native I think we had a Colorado team at that time I mean it's a joke we you know about about the dream it's happening now now at platform nine you guys have been doing this for a while what's the what are you most excited about as the Chief Architect what did you guys double down on what did you guys pivot from or two did you do any pivots did you extend out certain areas because you guys are in a good position right now a lot of DNA in Cloud native um what are you most excited about and what is platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this yeah so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years right it's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software it's powerful it solves new problems you know every year and you have new things coming out all the time right openstack was an example within kubernetes took the World by storm but there's always that complexity of you know just configuring it deploying it running it operating it and our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it you know easy for users to consume regardless of the technology right so the successor to kubernetes you know I don't have a crystal ball but you know you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications there are many projects around there who knows what's coming uh next year or the year after that but platform will a Platform 9 will be there and we will you know take the Innovations from the the community we will contribute our own Innovations and make all of those things uh very consumable to customers simpler faster cheaper always a good business model technically to make that happen yeah I think the reigning in the chaos is key you know now we have now visibility into the scale final question before we depart you know this segment um what is that scale how many clusters do you see that would be a high a watermark for an at scale conversation around an Enterprise um is it workloads we're looking at or or clusters how would you yeah how would you describe that and when people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale what's the at scale kind of threshold yeah and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large but roughly speaking when we say you know large-scale cluster deployments we're talking about um maybe a hundreds uh two thousands yeah and final final question what's the role of the hyperscalers you've got AWS continuing to do well but they got their core I asked they got a pass they're not too too much putting assess out there they have some SAS apps but mostly it's the ecosystem they have marketplaces doing over two billion dollars billions of transactions a year um and and it's just like just sitting there it has really they're now innovating on it but that's going to change ecosystems what's the role the cloud play and the cloud native at scale the the hyperscale yeah Abus Azure Google you mean from a business they have their own interests that you know that they're uh they will keep catering to they they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of uh services and and apis um so I don't think that's going to change right they're just going to keep well they got great uh performance I mean from a from a hardware standpoint yes that's going to be key right yes I think the uh the move from x86 being the dominant away and platform to run workloads is changing right that that that and I think the the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of you know the the new risk and arm ecosystems and platforms yeah that joking aside Paul maritz when he was the CEO of VMware when he took over once said I remember our first year doing the cube the cloud is one big distributed computer it's it's hardware and you've got software and you got middleware and uh he kind of over these kind of tongue-in-cheek but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer yes exactly it's we're back in the same game Vic thank you for coming on the segment appreciate your time this is uh Cloud native at scale special presentation with platform nine really unpacking super cloud rlon open source and how to run large-scale applications uh on the cloud cloud native philadelph4 developers and John Furrier with the cube thanks for watching and we'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up foreign [Music]

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, David Vellante here and welcome to the special CUBE conversation with a colleague and friend of mine, Randy Seidl is a accomplished CEO, he's an executive, sales pro, and he's a founder of the Sales Community, this newly formed social network, Randy, good to see you again, welcome. >> Hey, great to see you, it's been a lot of great years, great relationship with you and congratulations with all your success with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE. I was remembering back, I think it's been probably since 1985, so 35 years ago when we were both Cub Scouts, I was at EMC, and you were at IDC. >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I love where you are, your man-cave there, we heard you held a great little networking event that you do periodically with some of our joint colleagues. And yeah, wow, we were both in our twenties, I was a young pop and Dicky Eagan, and Jack and Mike, and they would have me talk to you guys, you know, sort of brief you on the market, what little I knew now looking back. But wow, Randy, I mean. >> We knew! >> Right, I mean, and then just the whole thing just took off, but we had a good instinct, that storage was going to matter, everything back then was mainframe and IBM was the king of the world, and then you guys just crushed it. Wow, what a run, amazing. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So tell me about Sales Community. What are you trying to accomplish with this new social network? >> Well, it was kind of really my COVID moment. I was talking to Peter Bell I know, you know well as well, and it was right in the beginning of COVID we were kind of comparing notes and long story short, he said, hey Randy, you do all this work with these technology companies, and channel partners, and use your customers, CIO, CTO, CSOs, but you're really not doing much for those that you know the best, which are really technology sales professionals, CROs, STRs kind of up and down the food chain. And that really got me thinking, then he introduced me to one of his companies that sells to CROs and I was going through with them and they were kind of calling me on the carpet saying, okay, do I really know these people? I'm like, oh my gosh! They basically just said, I'm a dope, I haven't really done anything here. So, one thing led to another and ended up developing a Sales Community, a big thing and big help for me was talking to probably 150 or so during the course of the summer, CROs, VPs of sales, Reps STRs to really kind of help get some feedback from them in terms of I caught now they call product-market fit, but kind of what they think it's missing, what's needed, what are their teams need, what do they want? So, it's kind of all a perfect storm, which to be honest without COVID probably wouldn't have created Sales Community. >> Well, I joined and it was a great onboarding experience and love participating with colleagues. I mean, sales is hard, I mean, you've got your ups and your downs and you just got to keep pressing on, but who's participating in Sales Community. >> We're targeting STRs on up to CROs and the kind of the tagline is learn more so you can sell more. We have a lot of great different kind of content areas and we're going to kind of bob and weave based on the feedback that we get, but we've got some great virtual events and interviews. We have an executive coach, Tony Jerry, who's doing nine sessions on designing your life. We did a recording, a live session last week on personal goal setting. We did one yesterday, it was a live session that'll be posted shortly on strategic health. Next one's on branding, so that's not necessarily specific to tech sales, but kind of adding value. We also have Dave Knorr, another executive coach doing a weekly interview series that we're calling tech sales insights with some of the leading CROs, CEOs, Jim Sullivan, who I know you know well, he's going to be the first one, it's going to be next Wednesday, he runs a NWN and he's done a lot of great things and a lot of other great leaders from there. Also still on the interview virtual events side, Michael Cotoia from Tech Target he's going to do a CMO insights series. His Tech Target International editors are also going to do regional ones. So CIO interviews from AMEA, Asia Pac, Latin America, Australia, also on the CSO side, we have somebody focused on doing a CSO interviews, Paul Salamanca of channel interviews, I think this channel, by and large gets missed a lot. CEO's and then Steve Duplessie, I know you know well as well is going to do and focus on CIO, sub-CIO insights, but basically creating virtual events and interview series that are really targeted at people that we sell to. So that covers the kind of virtual event and interview side. And I maybe more quickly go through some of the other key segments. So another one is a content library. There's the guy who's a STR at ServiceNow went through, send me note the other day that said, hey, I found out you have some great feedback on prospecting cold calling, I shared it with my team helped me a lot. So a lot of good things in terms of content library, also opportunity to network. So you could be say selling to Fidelity, you could send a note to the community and members and say anybody else trying to sell the Fidelity, let's network, let's compare notes, also great opportunities for channel partners. So channel partner could raise their hand and say, hey, I know Fidelity, let me help with you. A lot of sharing of best practices. And also just in terms of communication, slack channels, and then opportunities to create round tables. So you might have CROs from startups that want to have maybe six to 10 of them get together. So they can kind of commiserate, ask questions, you could have CROs, companies that are maybe transforming going from on-prem to kind of SAS model. So a lot of different great things, ultimately really to serve the folks in the tech Sales Community. >> Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, first of all tons of content, the other thing I like about it is we all read books on sales, some of them are so like gimmicky, some of them are inspirational. Some of them have really great suggestions. Some of them can be life changing, but what's always been missing in my opinion, is this notion of a network, a social network, if you will, where people can help each other, you just gave a ton of good examples. So you're really trying to differentiate from a lot of the things that have worked over the years, but have really sort of one way communication, some sales guru either training or you're reading his or her book. >> Yes, and we're also fortunate on the content side, we have some of the best kind of consulting sales methodology companies that love what we're doing. So they're likewise providing a lot of content and as you said, it's crazy. You think of any other industry, restaurant, hotel, lawyers, landscape, they have these big, kind of user groups, even technology companies user groups within the larger field of technology sales enterprise B2B sales, there's really nothing that looks like this that exists. So far the feedback's been great. >> Well, so just to what you're describing, I mean, I've known you for a long, long time, and one of the principles of great salespeople is, you help others, right? You make as many friends as you can, and you're the master of that. But essentially you're bringing a lot of the things that have worked, a lot of the principles that have worked in your career to this community. Maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, I mean, especially I think some of the younger sales folks, it's not kind of off the cuff as we know, but it's really kind of training, being disciplined, being prepared, what are you going to do, how are you going to do it in this COVID moment? You know, I'm seeing lots of friends where the companies that have great relationships, they can do really well and kind of lean in a lot. If you're kind of cold calling and this environment, and it's tough, so kind of, how can you be best prepared, how can you do the best homework? How can you have the kind of right agenda, when you're going to do the sales calls? And then it's not really as much follow up, but really follow through in terms of what you do afterwards. So kind of what is the training? What can you do, how can you do it? And, you know, it's crazy, a lot of companies spend lots of money on training, but if you think about it they're really tied in specifically to tech sales, hopefully this will be great. Plus being able to just kind of throw out questions here and there works out well as well. >> Well that's what I'm looking forward to, say, hey, I got some challenges, how do others deal with this? You know, one of the things that is, I think, paramount to being a great salesperson is the attitude you hear it all the time. How do you stay pumped up? (laughing) Like I said before, we've all been through ups and downs, and what do you tell people there? >> In terms of staying pumped up, interestingly enough, the session we did yesterday on strategic health, probably plays a key role. So yeah, there's the work aspects and how are you going to focus and wake up and get fired up. But ultimately, I think you really got to take several steps back and saying are you taking care of yourself? Are you sleeping, are you eating and drinking correctly? Are you drinking enough water, are you exercising? So, in this moment, I think that's probably something that gets missed a lot in terms of getting fired up. And then ultimately just being excited about kind of what you're doing, how are you doing it, taking care of the customers and serving those around you. And you had mentioned in terms of giving it back, but a lot of us that have been around, love the idea of kind of paying it forward, helping out others and seeing a lot of the great younger folks really rise up and become stars. >> I think that's one of the most exciting things is somebody has been around for awhile. Like (laughing) we all get cold calls and say, hey, how you doing today? You know, (laughing) you really had that dead air, and you actually want to reach out and help these individuals. A lot of times they'll call you, they have no idea what you do, well I've read your website, and I think we'd be a great fit for, you know, something that would not be a great fit. So, there's a level of preparation we always talk about in sales, you got to be prepared, but there's also sometimes... I was talking to a sales pro the other day, you know, sometimes you can over prepare he said, I've been on sales calls, I prepare for hours and hours and hours, and then they get there, and it was just a lot of wasted hours. I probably could have done it in 15 minutes. I mean, so there's a really a balance there. And it comes with experience, I guess. >> Yeah, I mean, I don't know how anybody could prepare hours and hours, so that's a whole different subject to think. >> Well, he said, my technique now is just 15 minutes before the call I'll jump on and just, you know, cram as much as I can. And it actually, it worked for him. So, different approaches, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I'd like to mention is the advisory board I'm fortunate to have a work with, and be friends with several of the best in industry like you. So if anybody goes to the website, you can click on an advisory board and there's a 200 plus and haven't count them exactly. But you know, some of the best in technology, we've got them sorted on the sales side and the channel side, the consulting side, the coaching side, analyst side, but, really just such a tremendous each head of talent that can really help us continue to go and grow and pivot and you're making sure that we are serving our Sales Community and making sure everybody's learning more so they can sell more. And then I guess I should add onto that also, earning more and making more money. >> So I got to ask you where you land on this. I mean, you're a sports fan, I am too and for a while there once the "Moneyball" came out, you saw Billy Bean and it was this sort of formulaic approach. The guy, you know, we would joke the team with the best nerds would win. But it seems like there's an equilibrium. It used to be all gut feel and experience, and then it became the data nerds. And it seems like in our industry, it's following a similar pattern, the marketing ops, Martech, becoming very, very data driven. But it feels to me, Randy, especially in these COVID times that there really is this equilibrium, this balance between experience, and tribal knowledge, gut feel, network, which is something you're building and the data. How do you see that role, that CRO role, that sales role evolving, especially in the context of what I just talked about with the data nerds? (laughing) >> Yeah, absolutely, I think I heard two points there since you brought up Billy Bean, I forgot the guy's name, but in the movie is kind of nerd. I've got Jesse and Tucker who have been tremendously helpful for us putting together a Sales Community. But to answer the question on the CMOs side, the CMOs out there frankly not going to like this answer, but I think more and more, you see CMOs and CROs kind of separated and it's kind of different agendas, my belief is that eventually the CMO function or marketing is really going to come under sales and sales are really going to take a much more active role in driving and leveraging that marketing function in terms of what's the best bang for the buck, what are they doing, how are they doing it? And I've got a lot of friends, I won't name names, but they're not on the sales side and they're doing what they can, but they just see what I'd call it kind of wasted money or inefficiencies on the marketing side. So, if I maybe I spin that a different way, I think given kind of analytics and those companies that do have best practices, and I write things on the marketing side, you know, they're going to continue to go and grow, you know, on cert with the right sales team. So I think that you bring up a great point and that area is going to continue to evolve a lot. >> Does that principle apply to product marketing? In other words do you feel like product marketing should be more aligned with engineering or sales and maybe sales and finance, where do you land on that? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of old school, so I go back to Dick and Jack and Roger and Mike Rutgers, and you all in terms of, hey, you have those silos, but you get everybody at the table, kind of what we're working well together. It is interesting though in today's world, the PLG, Product-Led Growth models, where a lot of companies now are trying to get in maybe almost like a VMware, maybe BMC did in the early days where you're kind of getting into the low level developers and then kind of things bubble up so that you think Product-Led Growth model, having a lower cost insight sales model, works when I'll say the kind of the product sells itself. But I would argue, that I think some of those PLG led companies really miss out on leveraging the high end enterprise relationships, to kind of turbocharge and supersize and expedite larger sales deals, larger (indistinct). >> Well, and you mentioned earlier a channel you said a lot of times that's overlooked and I couldn't agree more, channel increasingly important. That's where a lot of the relationships live, it gives you scale, it just gives you a lot of leverage, maybe you talk about the importance of channel and how it relates to Sales Community. >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting they're really unto themselves, there's some things that are channel channel, but if you think about, you know, go to market tech sales, pick the company on average is probably half of the business goes through the channel. And it used to be way back when just kind of fulfillment, but now the best companies really are those that have the right relationships, that are adding value, that can help on the pre sales, that can help on the post sales, that can help kind of cross sale. You know, if I'm a customer, I don't want to deal with whatever five or 10 different vendors if I can have a one stop shop with one bar solution provider, partner, SI, or whatever you want to call them, you know, that certainly makes life a lot easier. And I think a lot of companies almost been kind of a second class citizen, but I think those companies that really bring them into the fold as really partners at the table, whether it be an account planning sessions, whether you're doing sales calls, but kind of leveraging that I call it a variable cost kind of off balance sheet, sales force really is where the future is going to continue to go. >> So you've been a successful individual sales contributor. You've been a CEO, you've run large sales organizations. I mean, you basically ran sales at HP for Donna Telly, and so you've seen it all, and you've been helping startups. When you look at hiring sales people, what are the attributes that you look for? Is it intelligence, is it hard work, is it coach ability? What are some of the things that are most important to you, and do you apply different attributes in different situations? What are your thoughts on that? >> Great question in a little plug, maybe for a recruiting business, top talent recruiting, (laughing) but one of the key things that we do, which I think is different from others in the recruiting side is the relationships. So a lot of people don't dig in, when we're talking to candidates, they say, well, nobody really asked me this before. And I would argue a key differentiator, and this is way before COVID, but especially now with COVID is okay, who do you have relationships with? So I could be talking to a candidate that maybe somebody is hiring, wants to cover financial services in New York. And then I'll say, okay, well, who do you know what City JPB Bay and I'll know more people than they know. And I'll probably say, just so you know, that's weird me up in Boston. I know more than the council you probably know the best. So really trying to unearth, really kind of who has the right relationships and then separate from that in terms of a reference check, being able to reference checks sooner in the process with somebody that know well firsthand, as opposed to second hand. And a lot of times I've seen even some of the larger, more expensive recruiting firms, you're kind of wait until somebody is the final say, when do an offer, then they do a reference check and they do the reference check with somebody that they don't know. And to me, I mean, that's totally useless which quite with LinkedIn today, I could be say if we're looking at you for candidate, maybe a bad example, but I don't know, we probably have a 1000 in common, and from those, we probably have 200 that we both know, well, that I could check. And when you do reference checking, it's not a maybe it's either, hey, the person is a yes, or the person's a no. So trying to do that early in the process, I think is a big differentiator. And then last and probably third piece I'd highlight is, if it's a startup company, you can't get somebody that's just from a big company. If it's a big company role, you can't get somebody that just from a small company, you got to really make sure you kind of peel back the onions and see where they're from. And you could have somebody from a big company, but they were kind of wearing a smaller division. So again, you have to kind of, you can't judge a book by the cover. You got to kind of peel back the onion. >> So Randy, how do people learn more about Sales Community? Where do they go to engage, sign up, et cetera? >> Absolutely, it's salescommunity.com. So it should be pretty straight forward. A lot of great information there. You can go subscribe, and if you like it spread the word and a lot of great content and you can ping me there. And if not I'm randy@salescommunity.com. So love to get any feedback, help out in any way we can. >> Well, I think it's critical that you're putting this network together and you are probably the best networker that I know I've seen you in action at gatherings and you really have been a great inspiration and a friend. So, Randy, thanks so much for doing the Sales Community and coming on theCUBE and sharing your experience with us. >> Great, thanks Dave, appreciate it. >> All right you're very welcome and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of VM World 2020 Virtual I'm John for your host of the Cube, our 11th year covering V emeralds. Not in person. It's virtual. I'm with my coast, Dave. A lot, of course. Ah, guest has been on every year since the cubes existed. Sanjay Putin, who is now the chief operating officer for VM Ware Sanjay, Great to see you. It's our 11th years. Virtual. We're not in person. Usually high five are going around. But hey, virtual fist pump, >>virtual pissed bump to you, John and Dave, always a pleasure to talk to you. I give you more than a virtual pistol. Here's a virtual hug. >>Well, so >>great. Back at great. >>Great to have you on. First of all, a lot more people attending the emerald this year because it's virtual again, it doesn't have the face to face. It is a community and technical events, so people do value that face to face. Um, but it is virtually a ton of content, great guests. You guys have a great program here, Very customer centric. Kind of. The theme is, you know, unpredictable future eyes is really what it's all about. We've talked about covert you've been on before. What's going on in your perspective? What's the theme of your main talks? >>Ah, yeah. Thank you, John. It's always a pleasure to talk to you folks. We we felt as we thought, about how we could make this content dynamic. We always want to make it fresh. You know, a virtual show of this kind and program of this kind. We all are becoming experts at many Ted talks or ESPN. Whatever your favorite program is 60 minutes on becoming digital producers of content. So it has to be crisp, and everybody I think was doing this has found ways by which you reduce the content. You know, Pat and I would have normally given 90 minute keynotes on day one and then 90 minutes again on day two. So 180 minutes worth of content were reduced that now into something that is that entire 180 minutes in something that is but 60 minutes. You you get a chance to use as you've seen from the keynote an incredible, incredible, you know, packed array of both announcements from Pat myself. So we really thought about how we could organize this in a way where the content was clear, crisp and compelling. Thekla's piece of it needed also be concise, but then supplemented with hundreds of sessions that were as often as possible, made it a goal that if you're gonna do a break out session that has to be incorporate or lead with the customer, so you'll see not just that we have some incredible sea level speakers from customers that have featured in in our pattern, Mikey notes like John Donahoe, CEO of Nike or Lorry beer C I, a global sea of JPMorgan Chase partner Baba, who is CEO of Zuma Jensen Wang, who is CEO of video. Incredible people. Then we also had some luminaries. We're gonna be talking in our vision track people like in the annuity. I mean, one of the most powerful women the world many years ranked by Fortune magazine, chairman, CEO Pepsi or Bryan Stevenson, the person who start in just mercy. If you watch that movie, he's a really key fighter for social justice and criminal. You know, reform and jails and the incarceration systems. And Malala made an appearance. Do I asked her personally, I got to know her and her dad's and she spoke two years ago. I asked her toe making appearance with us. So it's a really, really exciting until we get to do some creative stuff in terms of digital content this year. >>So on the product side and the momentum side, you have great decisions you guys have made in the past. We covered that with Pat Gelsinger, but the business performance has been very strong with VM. Where, uh, props to you guys, Where does this all tie together for in your mind? Because you have the transformation going on in a highly accelerated rate. You know, cov were not in person, but Cove in 19 has proven, uh, customers that they have to move faster. It's a highly accelerated world, a lot. Lots changing. Multi cloud has been on the radar. You got security. All the things you guys are doing, you got the AI announcements that have been pumping. Thean video thing was pretty solid. That project Monterey. What does the customer walk away from this year and and with VM where? What is the main theme? What what's their call to action? What's what do they need to be doing? >>I think there's sort of three things we would encourage customers to really think about. Number one is, as they think about everything in infrastructure, serves APS as they think about their APS. We want them to really push the frontier of how they modernize their athletic applications. And we think that whole initiative off how you modernized applications driven by containers. You know, 20 years ago when I was a developer coming out of college C, C plus, plus Java and then emerge, these companies have worked on J two ee frameworks. Web Logic, Be Aware logic and IBM Web Street. It made the development off. Whatever is e commerce applications of portals? Whatever was in the late nineties, early two thousands much, much easier. That entire world has gotten even easier and much more Micro service based now with containers. We've been talking about kubernetes for a while, but now we've become the leading enterprise, contain a platform making some incredible investments, but we want to not just broaden this platform. We simplified. It is You've heard everything in the end. What works in threes, right? It's sort of like almost t shirt sizing small, medium, large. So we now have tens Ooh, in the standard. The advanced the enterprise editions with lots of packaging behind that. That makes it a very broad and deep platform. We also have a basic version of it. So in some sense it's sort of like an extra small. In addition to the small medium large so tends to and everything around at modernization, I think would be message number one number two alongside modernization. You're also thinking about migration of your workloads and the breadth and depth of, um, er Cloud Foundation now of being able to really solve, not just use cases, you are traditionally done, but also new ai use cases. Was the reason Jensen and us kind of partner that, and I mean what a great company and video has become. You know, the king maker of these ai driven applications? Why not run those AI applications on the best infrastructure on the planet? Remember, that's a coming together of both of our platforms to help customers. You know automotive banking fraud detection is a number of AI use cases that now get our best and we want it. And the same thing then applies to Project Monterey, which takes the B c f e m A Cloud Foundation proposition to smart Knicks on Dell, HP Lenovo are embracing the in video Intel's and Pen Sandoz in that smart make architectural, however, that so that entire world of multi cloud being operative Phobia Macleod Foundation on Prem and all of its extended use cases like AI or Smart Knicks or Edge, but then also into the AWS Azure, Google Multi Cloud world. We obviously had a preferred relationship with Amazon that's going incredibly well, but you also saw some announcements last week from, uh, Microsoft Azure about azure BMR solutions at their conference ignite. So we feel very good about the migration opportunity alongside of modernization on the third priority, gentlemen would be security. It's obviously a topic that I most recently taken uninterested in my day job is CEO of the company running the front office customer facing revenue functions by night job by Joe Coffin has been driving. The security strategy for the company has been incredibly enlightening to talk, to see SOS and drive this intrinsic security or zero trust from the network to end point and workload and cloud security. And we made some exciting announcements there around bringing together MAWR capabilities with NSX and Z scaler and a problem black and workload security. And of course, Lassiter wouldn't cover all of this. But I would say if I was a attendee of the conference those the three things I want them to take away what BMR is doing in the future of APS what you're doing, the future of a multi cloud world and how we're making security relevant for distributed workforce. >>I know David >>so much to talk about here, Sanjay. So, uh, talk about modern APS? That's one of the five franchise platforms VM Ware has a history of going from, you know, Challenger toe dominant player. You saw that with end user computing, and there's many, many other examples, so you are clearly one of the top, you know. Let's call it five or six platforms out there. We know what those are, uh, and but critical to that modern APS. Focus is developers, and I think it's fair to say that that's not your wheelhouse today, but you're making moves there. You agree that that is, that is a critical part of modern APS, and you update us on what you're doing for that community to really take a leadership position there. >>Yeah, no, I think it's a very good point, David. We way seek to constantly say humble and hungry. There's never any assumption from us that VM Ware is completely earned anyplace off rightful leadership until we get thousands, tens of thousands. You know, we have a half a million customers running on our virtualization sets of products that have made us successful for 20 years 70 million virtual machines. But we have toe earn that right and containers, and I think there will be probably 10 times as many containers is their virtual machines. So if it took us 20 years to not just become the leader in in virtual machines but have 70 million virtual machines, I don't think it will be 20 years before there's a billion containers and we seek to be the leader in that platform. Now, why, Why VM Where and why do you think we can win in their long term. What are we doing with developers Number one? We do think there is a container capability independent of virtual machine. And that's what you know, this entire world of what hefty on pivotal brought to us on. You know, many of the hundreds of customers that are using what was formerly pivotal and FDR now what's called Tan Xue have I mean the the case. Studies of what those customers are doing are absolutely incredible. When I listen to them, you take Dick's sporting goods. I mean, they are building curbside, pick up a lot of the world. Now the pandemic is doing e commerce and curbside pick up people are going to the store, That's all based on Tan Xue. We've had companies within this sort of world of pandemic working on contact, tracing app. Some of the diagnostic tools built without they were the lab services and on the 10 zoo platform banks. Large banks are increasingly standardizing on a lot of their consumer facing or wealth management type of applications, anything that they're building rapidly on this container platform. So it's incredible the use cases I'm hearing public sector. The U. S. Air Force was talking about how they've done this. Many of them are not public about how they're modernizing dams, and I tend to learn the best from these vertical use case studies. I mean, I spend a significant part of my life is you know, it s a P and increasingly I want to help the company become a lot more vertical. Use case in banking, public sector, telco manufacturing, CPG retail top four or five where we're seeing a lot of recurrence of these. The Tan Xue portfolio actually brings us closest to almost that s a P type of dialogue because we're having an apse dialogue in the in the speak of an industry as opposed to bits and bytes Notice I haven't talked at all about kubernetes or containers. I'm talking about the business problem being solved in a retailer or a bank or public sector or whatever have you now from a developer audience, which was the second part of your question? Dave, you know, we talked about this, I think a year or two ago. We have five million developers today that we've been able to, you know, as bringing these acquisitions earn some audience with about two or three million from from the spring community and two or three million from the economic community. So think of those five million people who don't know us because of two acquisitions we don't. Obviously spring was inside Vienna where went out of pivotal and then came back. So we really have spent a lot of time with that community. A few weeks ago, we had spring one. You guys are aware of that? That conference record number of attendees okay, Registered, I think of all 40 or 50,000, which is, you know, much bigger than the physical event. And then a substantial number of them attended live physical. So we saw a great momentum out of spring one, and we're really going to take care of that, That that community base of developers as they care about Java Manami also doing really, really well. But then I think the rial audience it now has to come from us becoming part of the conversation. That coupon at AWS re invent at ignite not just the world, I mean via world is not gonna be the only place where infrastructure and developers come to. We're gonna have to be at other events which are very prominent and then have a developer marketplace. So it's gonna be a multiyear effort. We're okay with that. To grow that group of about five million developers that we today Kate or two on then I think there will be three or four other companies that also play very prominently to developers AWS, Microsoft and Google. And if we're one among those three or four companies and remembers including that list, we feel very good about our ability to be in a place where this is a shared community, takes a village to approach and an appeal to those developers. I think there will be one of those four companies that's doing this for many years to >>come. Santa, I got to get your take on. I love your reference to the Web days and how the development environment change and how the simplicity came along very relevant to how we're seeing this digital transformation. But I want to get your thoughts on how you guys were doing pre and now during and Post Cove it. You already had a complicated thing coming on. You had multi cloud. You guys were expanding your into end you had acquisitions, you mentioned a few of them. And then cove it hit. Okay, so now you have Everything is changing you got. He's got more complex city. You have more solutions, and then the customer psychology is change. You got to spectrums of customers, people trying to save their business because it's changed, their customer behavior has changed. And you have other customers that are doubling down because they have a tailwind from Cove it, whether it's a modern app, you know, coming like Zoom and others are doing well because of the environment. So you got your customers air in this in this in this, in this storm, you know, they're trying to save down, modernized or or or go faster. How are you guys changing? Because it's impacted how you sell. People are selling differently, how you implement and how you support customers, because you already had kind of the whole multi cloud going on with the modern APS. I get that, but Cove, it has changed things. How are you guys adopting and changing to meet the customer needs who are just trying to save their business on re factor or double down and continue >>John. Great question. I think I also talked about some of this in one of your previous digital events that you and I talked about. I mean, you go back to the last week of February 1st week of March, actually back up, even in January, my last trip on a plane. Ah, major trip outside this country was the World Economic Forum in Davos. And, you know, there were thousands of us packed into the small digits in Switzerland. I was sitting having dinner with Andy Jassy in a restaurant one night that day. Little did we know. A month later, everything would change on DWhite. We began to do in late February. Early March was first. Take care of employees. You always wanna have the pulse, check employees and be in touch with them. Because the health and safety of employees is much more important than the profits of, um, where you know. So we took care of that. Make sure that folks were taking care of older parents were in good place. We fortunately not lost anyone to death. Covert. We had some covert cases, but they've recovered on. This is an incredible pandemic that connects all of us in the human fabric. It has no separation off skin color or ethnicity or gender, a little bit of difference in people who are older, who might be more affected or prone to it. But we just have to, and it's taught me to be a significantly more empathetic. I began to do certain things that I didn't do before, but I felt was the right thing to do. For example, I've begun to do 25 30 minute calls with every one of my key countries. You know, as I know you, I run customer operations, all of the go to market field teams reporting to me on. I felt it was important for me to be showing up, not just in the big company meetings. We do that and big town halls where you know, some fractions. 30,000 people of VM ware attend, but, you know, go on, do a town hall for everybody in a virtual zoom session in Japan. But in their time zone. So 10 o'clock my time in the night, uh, then do one in China and Australia kind of almost travel around the world virtually, and it's not long calls 25 30 minutes, where 1st 10 or 15 minutes I'm sharing with them what I'm seeing across other countries, the world encouraging them to focus on a few priorities, which I'll talk about in a second and then listening to them for 10 15 minutes and be, uh and then the call on time or maybe even a little earlier, because every one of us is going to resume button going from call to call the call. We're tired of T. There's also mental, you know, fatigue that we've gotta worry about. Mental well, being long term. So that's one that I personally began to change. I began to also get energy because in the past, you know, I would travel to Europe or Asia. You know, 40 50%. My life has travel. It takes a day out of your life on either end, your jet lag. And then even when you get to a Tokyo or Beijing or to Bangalore or the London, getting between sites of these customers is like a 45 minute, sometimes in our commute. Now I'm able to do many of these 25 30 minute call, so I set myself a goal to talk to 1000 chief security officers. I know a lot of CEOs and CFOs from my times at S A P and VM ware, but I didn't know many security officers who often either work for a CEO or report directly to the legal counsel on accountable to the audit committee of the board. And I got a list of these 1,002,000 people we called email them. Man, I gotta tell you, people willing to talk to me just coming, you know, into this I'm about 500 into that. And it was role modeling to my teams that the top of the company is willing to spend as much time as possible. And I have probably gotten a lot more productive in customer conversations now than ever before. And then the final piece of your question, which is what do we tell the customer in terms about portfolio? So these were just more the practices that I was able to adapt during this time that have given me energy on dial, kind of get scared of two things from the portfolio perspective. I think we began to don't notice two things. One is Theo entire move of migration and modernization around the cloud. I describe that as you know, for example, moving to Amazon is a migration opportunity to azure modernization. Is that whole Tan Xue Eminem? Migration of modernization is highly relevant right now. In fact, taking more speed data center spending might be on hold on freeze as people kind of holding till depend, emmick or the GDP recovers. But migration of modernization is accelerating, so we wanna accelerate that part of our portfolio. One of the products we have a cloud on Amazon or Cloud Health or Tan Xue and maybe the other offerings for the other public dog. The second part about portfolio that we're seeing acceleration around is distributed workforce security work from home work from anywhere. And that's that combination off workspace, one for both endpoint management, virtual desktops, common black envelope loud and the announcements we've now made with Z scaler for, uh, distributed work for security or what the analysts called secure access. So message. That's beautiful because everyone working from home, even if they come back to the office, needs a very different model of security and were now becoming a leader in that area. of security. So these two parts of the portfolio you take the five franchise pillars and put them into these two buckets. We began to see momentum. And the final thing, I would say, Guys, just on a soft note. You know, I've had to just think about ways in which I balance work and family. It's just really easy. You know what, 67 months into this pandemic to burn out? Ah, now I've encouraged my team. We've got to think about this as a marathon, not a sprint. Do the personal things that you wanna do that will make your life better through this pandemic. That in practice is that you keep after it. I'll give you one example. I began biking with my kids and during the summer months were able to bike later. Even now in the fall, we're able to do that often, and I hope that's a practice I'm able to do much more often, even after the pandemic. So develop some activities with your family or with the people that you love the most that are seeing you a lot more and hopefully enjoying that time with them that you will keep even after this pandemic ends. >>So, Sanjay, I love that you're spending all this time with CSOs. I mean, I have a Well, maybe not not 1000 but dozens. And they're such smart people. They're really, you know, in the thick of things you mentioned, you know, your partnership with the scale ahead. Scott Stricklin on who is the C. C so of Wyndham? He was talking about the security club. But since the pandemic, there's really three waves. There's the cloud security, the identity, access management and endpoint security. And one of the things that CSOs will tell you is the lack of talent is their biggest challenge. And they're drowning in all these products. And so how should we think about your approach to security and potentially simplifying their lives? >>Yeah. You know, Dave, we talked about this, I think last year, maybe the year before, and what we were trying to do in security was really simplified because the security industry is like 5000 vendors, and it's like, you know, going to a doctor and she tells you to stay healthy. You gotta have 5000 tablets. You just cannot eat that many tablets you take you days, weeks, maybe a month to eat that many tablets. So ah, grand simplification has to happen where that health becomes part of your diet. You eat your proteins and vegetables, you drink your water, do your exercise. And the analogy and security is we cannot deploy dozens of agents and hundreds of alerts and many, many consoles. Uh, infrastructure players like us that have control points. We have 70 million virtual machines. We have 75 million virtual switches. We have, you know, tens of million's off workspace, one of carbon black endpoints that we manage and secure its incumbent enough to take security and making a lot more part of the infrastructure. Reduce the need for dozens and dozens of point tools. And with that comes a grand simplification of both the labor involved in learning all these tools. Andi, eventually also the cost of ownership off those particular tool. So that's one other thing we're seeking to do is increasingly be apart off that education off security professionals were both investing in ah, lot of off, you know, kind of threat protection research on many of our folks you know who are in a threat. Behavioral analytics, you know, kind of thread research. And people have come out of deep hacking experience with the government and others give back to the community and teaching classes. Um, in universities, there are a couple of non profits that are really investing in security, transfer education off CSOs and their teams were contributing to that from the standpoint off the ways in which we can give back both in time talent and also a treasure. So I think is we think about this. You're going to see us making this a long term play. We have a billion dollar security business today. There's not many companies that have, you know, a billion dollar plus of security is probably just two or three, and some of them have hit a wall in terms of their progress sport. We want to be one of the leaders in cybersecurity, and we think we need to do this both in building great product satisfying customers. But then also investing in the learning, the training enable remember, one of the things of B M worlds bright is thes hands on labs and all the training enable that happened at this event. So we will use both our platform. We in world in a variety of about the virtual environments to ensure that we get the best education of security to professional. >>So >>that's gonna be exciting, Because if you look at some of the evaluations of some of the pure plays I mean, you're a cloud security business growing a triple digits and, you know, you see some of these guys with, you know, $30 billion valuations, But I wanted to ask you about the market, E v m. Where used to be so simple Right now, you guys have expanded your tam dramatically. How are you thinking about, you know, the market opportunity? You've got your five franchise platforms. I know you're very disciplined about identifying markets, and then, you know, saying, Okay, now we're gonna go compete. But how do you look at the market and the market data? Give us the update there. >>Yeah, I think. Dave, listen, you know, I like davinci statement. You know, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication, and I think you've touched on something that which is cos we get bigger. You know, I've had the great privilege of working for two great companies. s a P and B M where the bulk of my last 15 plus years And if something I've learned, you know, it's very easy. Both companies was to throw these TLS three letter acronyms, okay? And I use an acronym and describing the three letter acronyms like er or s ex. I mean, they're all acronyms and a new employee who comes to this company. You know, Carol Property, for example. We just hired her from Google. Is our CMO her first comments like, My goodness, there is a lot of off acronyms here. I've gotta you need a glossary? I had the same reaction when I joined B. M or seven years ago and had the same reaction when I joined the S A. P 15 years ago. Now, of course, two or three years into it, you learn everything and it becomes part of your speed. We have toe constantly. It's like an accordion like you expanded by making it mawr of luminous and deep. But as you do that it gets complex, you then have to simplify it. And that's the job of all of us leaders and I this year, just exemplifying that I don't have it perfect. One of the gifts I do have this communication being able to simplify things. I recorded a five minute video off our five franchise pill. It's just so that the casual person didn't know VM where it could understand on. Then, when I'm on your shore and when on with Jim Cramer and CNBC, I try to simplify, simplify, simplify, simplify because the more you can talk and analogies and pictures, the more the casual user. I mean, of course, and some other audiences. I'm talking to investors. Get it on. Then, Of course, as you go deeper, it should be like progressive layers or feeling of an onion. You can get deeper. It's not like the entire discussion with Sanjay Putin on my team is like, you know, empty suit. It's a superficial discussion. We could go deeper, but you don't have to begin the discussion in the bowels off that, and that's really what we don't do. And then the other part of your question was, how do we think about new markets? You know, we always start with Listen, you sort of core in contact our borough come sort of Jeffrey Moore, Andi in the Jeffrey more context. You think about things that you do really well and then ask yourself outside of that what the Jason sees that are closest to you, that your customers are asking you to advance into on that, either organically to partnerships or through acquisitions. I think John and I talked about in the previous dialogue about the framework of build partner and by, and we always think about it in that order. Where do we advance and any of the moves we've made six years ago, seven years ago and I joined the I felt VM are needed to make a move into mobile to really cement opposition in end user computing. And it took me some time to convince my peers and then the board that we should by Air One, which at that time was the biggest acquisition we've ever done. Okay. Similarly, I'm sure prior to me about Joe Tucci, Pat Nelson. We're thinking about nice here, and I'm moving to networking. Those were too big, inorganic moves. +78 years of Raghu was very involved in that. The decisions we moved to the make the move in the public cloud myself. Rgu pack very involved in the decision. Their toe partner with Amazon, the change and divest be cloud air and then invested in organic effort around what's become the Claudia. That's an organic effort that was an acquisition fast forward to last year. It took me a while to really Are you internally convinced people and then make the move off the second biggest acquisition we made in carbon black and endpoint security cement the security story that we're talking about? Rgu did a similar piece of good work around ad monetization to justify that pivotal needed to come back in. So but you could see all these pieces being adjacent to the core, right? And then you ask yourself, Is that context meaning we could leave it to a partner like you don't see us get into the hardware game we're partnering with. Obviously, the players like Dell and HP, Lenovo and the smart Knick players like Intel in video. In Pensando, you see that as part of the Project Monterey announcement. But the adjacent seas, for example, last year into app modernization up the stack and into security, which I'd say Maura's adjacent horizontal to us. We're now made a lot more logical. And as we then convince ourselves that we could do it, convince our board, make the move, We then have to go and tell our customers. Right? And this entire effort of talking to CSOs What am I doing is doing the same thing that I did to my board last year, simplified to 15 minutes and get thousands of them to understand it. Received feedback, improve it, invest further. And actually, some of the moves were now making this year around our partnership in distributed Workforce Security and Cloud Security and Z scaler. What we're announcing an XDR and Security Analytics. All of the big announcements of security of this conference came from what we heard last year between the last 12 months of my last year. Well, you know, keynote around security, and now, and I predict next year it'll be even further. That's how you advance the puck every year. >>Sanjay, I want to get your thoughts. So now we have a couple minutes left. But we did pull the audience and the community to get some questions for you, since it's virtually wanted to get some representation there. So I got three questions for you. First question, what comes after Cloud and number two is VM Ware security company. And three. What company had you wish you had acquired? >>Oh, my goodness. Okay, the third one eyes gonna be the turkey is one, I think. Listen, because I'm gonna give you my personal opinion, and some of it was probably predates me, so I could probably safely So do that. And maybe put the blame on Joe Tucci or somebody else is no longer here. But let me kind of give you the first two. What comes after cloud? I think clouds gonna be with us for a long time. First off this multi cloud world, you just look at the moment, um, that AWS and azure and the other clouds all have. It's incredible on I think this that multi cloud from phenomenon. But if there's an adapt ation of it, it's gonna be three forms of cloud. People are really only focus today in private public cloud. You have to remember the edge and Telco Cloud and this pendulum off the right balance of workloads between the data center called it a private cloud. The public cloud on one end and the telco edge on the other end. I think we're in a really good position for workloads to really swing between all three of those locations. Three other part that I think comes as a sequel to Cloud is cloud native. All of the capabilities a serverless functions but also containers that you know. Obviously the one could think of that a sister topics to cloud but the entire world of containers. The other seat, uh, then cloud a cloud native will also be topics, but these were all fairly connected. That's how I'd answer the first question. A security company? Absolutely. We you know, we aspire to be one of the leading companies in cyber security. I don't think they will be only one. We have to show this by the wealth on breath of our customers. The revenue momentum we have Gartner ranking us or the analysts ranking us in top rights of magic quadrants being viewed as an innovator simplifying the stack. But listen, we weren't even on the radar. We weren't speaking of the security conferences years ago. Now we are. We have a billion dollar security business, 20,000 plus customers, really strong presences and network endpoint and workload and Cloud Security. The three Coppola's a lot more coming in Security analytics, Cloud Security distributed workforce Security. So we're here to stay. And if anything, BMR persist through this, we're planning for multi your five or 10 year timeframe. And in that course I mean, the competition is smaller. Companies that don't have the breadth and depth of the n words are Andy muscle and are going market. We just have to keep building great products and serving customer on the third man. There's so many. But I mean, I think Listen, when I was looking back, I always wondered this is before I joined so I could say the summit speculatively on. Don't you know, make this This is BMR. Sorry. This is Sanjay one's opinion. Not VM. I gotta make very, very clear. Well, listen, I would have if I was at BMO in 2012 or 2013. I would love to about service now then service. It was a great company. I don't even know maybe the company's talk, but then talk about a very successful company at that time now. Maybe their priorities were different. I wasn't at the company at the time, but I can speculate if that had happened, that would have been an interesting Now I think that was during the time of Paul Maritz here and and so on. So for them, maybe there were other priorities the company need to get done. But at that time, of course, today s so it's not as big of a even slightly bigger market cap than us. So that's not happening. But that's a great example of a good company that I think would have at that time fit very well with VM Ware. And then there's probably we don't look back and regret we move forward. I mean, I think about the acquisitions we have made the big ones. Okay, Nice era air watch pop in black. Pivotal. The big moves we've made in terms of partnership. Amazon. What? We're announcing this This, you know, this week within video and Z scaler. So you never look back and regret. You always look for >>follow up on that To follow up on that from a developer, entrepreneurial or partner Perspective. Can you share where the white spaces for people to innovate around vm Where where where can people partner and play. Whether I'm an entrepreneur in a garage or venture back, funded or say a partner pivoting and or resetting with Govind, where's the white spaces with them? >>I think that, you know, there's gonna be a number off places where the Tan Xue platform develops, as it kind of makes it relevant to developers. I mean, there's, I think the first way we think about this is to make ourselves relevant toe all of that ecosystem around the C I. C. D type apply platform. They're really good partners of ours. They're like, get lab, You know, all of the ways in which open source communities, you know will play alongside that Hash E Corp. Jay frog there number of these companies that are partnering with us and we're excited about all of their relevancy to tend to, and it's our job to go and make that marketplace better and better. You're going to hear more about that coming up from us on. Then there's the set of data companies, you know, con fluent. You know, of course, you've seen a big I p o of a snowflake. All of those data companies, we'll need a very natural synergy. If you think about the old days of middleware, middleware is always sort of separate from the database. I think that's starting to kind of coalesce. And Data and analytics placed on top of the modern day middleware, which is containers I think it's gonna be now does VM or play physically is a data company. We don't know today we're gonna partner very heavily. But picking the right set of partners been fluent is a good example of one on. There's many of the next generation database companies that you're going to see us partner with that will become part of that marketplace influence. And I think, as you see us certainly produce out the VM Ware marketplace for developers. I think this is gonna be a game changing opportunity for us to really take those five million developers and work with the leading companies. You know, I use the example of get Lab is an example get help there. Others that appeal to developers tie them into our developer framework. The one thing you learn about developers, you can't have a mindset. With that, you all come to just us. It's a very mingled village off multiple ecosystems and Venn diagrams that are coalescing. If you try to take over the world, the developer community just basically shuns you. You have to have a very vibrant way in which you are mingling, which is why I described. It's like, Listen, we want our developers to come to our conferences and reinvent and ignite and get the best experience of all those provide tools that coincide with everybody. You have to take a holistic view of this on if you do that over many years, just like the security topic. This is a multi year pursuit for us to be relevant. Developers. We feel good about the future being bright. >>David got five minutes e. >>I thought you were gonna say Zoom, Sanjay, that was That was my wildcard. >>Well, listen, you know, I think it was more recently and very fast catapult Thio success, and I don't know that that's clearly in the complete, you know, sweet spot of the anywhere. I mean, you know, unified collaboration would have probably put us in much more competition with teams and, well, back someone you always have to think about what's in the in the bailiwick of what's closest to us, but zooms a great partner. Uh, I mean, obviously you love to acquire anybody that's hot, but Eric's doing really well. I mean, Erica, I'm sure he had many people try to come to buy him. I'm just so proud of him as a friend of all that he was named to Time magazine Top 100. But what he's done is phenomenon. I think he could build a company that's just his important, his Facebook. So, you know, I encourage him. Don't sell, keep building the company and you'll build a company that's going to be, you know, the enterprise version of Facebook. And I think that's a tremendous opportunity to do this better than anybody else is doing. And you know, I'm as an immigrant. He's, you know, China. Born now American, I'm Indian born, American, assim immigrants. We both have a similar story. I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot from him, from on speed on speed and how to move fast, he tells me he learns a thing to do for me on scale. We teach each other. It's a beautiful friendship. >>We'll make sure you put in a good word for the Kiwi. One more zoom integration >>for a final word or the zoom that is the future Facebook of the enterprise. Whatever, Sanjay, Thank >>you for connecting with us. Virtually. It is a digital foundation. It is an unpredictable world. Um, it's gonna change. It could be software to find the operating models or changing you guys. We're changing how you serve customers with new chief up commercial customer officer you have in place, which is a new hire. Congratulations. And you guys were flexing with the market and you got a tailwind. So congratulations, >>John and Dave. Always a pleasure. We couldn't do this without the partnership. Also with you. Congratulations of Successful Cube. And in its new digital format, Thank you for being with us With VM world here on. Do you know all that you're doing to get the story out? The guests that you have on the show, they look forward, including the nonviable people like, Hey, can I get on the Cuban like, Absolutely. Because they look at your platform is away. I'm telling this story. Thanks for all you're doing. I wish you health and safety. >>I'm gonna bring more community. And Dave is, you know, and Sanjay, and it's easier without the travel. Get more interviews, tell more stories and tell the most important stories. And thank you for telling your story and VM World story here of the emerald 2020. Sanjay Poon in the chief operating officer here on the Cube I'm John for a day Volonte. Thanks for watching Cube Virtual. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Qualys Security Conference 2019, brought to you by Qualys. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Rick here with theCUBE. We're in Las Vegas at the Bellagio at the Qualys Security Conference. They've been doing this for 19 years. They've been in this business for a long time, seen a lot of changes, so we're happy to be here. Our next guest works for Caterpillar. He is Brian Rossi, the senior security manager vulnerability management. Brian, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So I was so psyched, they had an interview, a gentleman from Caterpillar a few years ago, and it was fascinating to me how far along the autonomous vehicle route Caterpillar is. And I don't think most people understand, right? They see the Waymo cars driving around, and they read about all this stuff. But Caterpillar's been doing autonomous vehicles for a super long time. >> A really long time, a really long time, 25-plus years, pioneering a lot of the autonomous vehicle stuff that's out there. And we've actually, it's been cool, had an opportunity to do some security testing on some of the stuff that we're doing. So, even making it safer for the mines and the places that are using it today. >> Yeah, you don't want one of those big-giant dump-truck things to go rogue. (laughing) >> Off a cliff. Yeah, no, bad idea. >> Huge. Or into a bunch of people. All right, so let's jump into it. So, vulnerability management. What do you focus on, what does that mean exactly? >> So, for me, more on the traditional vulnerability management side. So I stay out of the application space, but my group is focused on identifying vulnerabilities for servers, workstations, endpoints that are out there, working with those IT operational teams to make sure they get those patched and reduce as many vulnerabilities as we can over the course of a year. >> So we've done some stuff with Forescout, and they're the kings of vulnerability sniffing-out. In fact, I think they have an integration with Qualys as well. So, is it always amazing as to how much stuff that gets attached to the network that you weren't really sure was there in the first place? >> Yes, absolutely. (laughs) And it's fun to be on the side that gets to see it all, and then tell people that it's there. I think with Qualys and with some of the other tools that we use, right? We're seeing these things before anybody else is seeing them and we're seeing the vulnerabilities that are associated with them, before anyone else sees them. So it's an interesting job, to tell people what's out there when they didn't even know. >> Right, so another really important integration is with ServiceNow, and you're giving a talk I believe tomorrow on how you use both Qualys and ServiceNow together. Give us kind of the overview of what you're going to be talking about. >> Absolutely, so the overview is really what our motto has been all year, right? Is put work where people work. So what we found was that with our vulnerability management program, we're doing scanning, we're running reports, we're trying to communicate with these IT operational teams to fix what's out there. But that's difficult when you're just sending spreadsheets around and you're trying to email people. There's organizational changes, people are moving around. They might not be responsible for those platforms anymore. And keeping track of all that is incredibly difficult in a global scale, with hundreds of thousands of assets that people are managing. And so we turned to ServiceNow and Qualys to really find a way to easily communicate, not just easily, but also timely, communicate those vulnerabilities to the teams that are responsible for doing it. >> Right, so you guys already had the ServiceNow implementation obviously, it was something that was heavily used. You're kind of implying that that was the screen that a lot of people had open on their desktop all the time. >> We lucked out that we were early in the implementation with ServiceNow. So, Caterpillar was moving from a previous IT service management solution to ServiceNow so we got in on the ground floor with the teams that were building out the configuration management database. We got in with the ground floor with the teams who were operationalizing, using ServiceNow to drive their work. We had the opportunities to just build relationships with them, take those relationships, ask them how they want that to work, and then go build it for them. >> Right, it's so funny because everyone likes to talk about single pane of glass, and to own that real estate that's on our screens that we sit and look at all day long, and it used to be emails. It's not so much email anymore, and ServiceNow is one of those types of apps that when you're in it, you're working it, that is your thing. And it's one thing to sniff out the vulnerabilities and find vulnerabilities, but you got to close the loop. >> Brian: You got to, absolutely. >> And that's really where the ServiceNow piece fits. >> And it's been great. We've seen a dramatic reduction in the number of vulnerabilities that are getting fixed over the course of a 30-day period. And I think it simply is because the visibility is finally there, and it's real-time visibility for these groups. They're not receiving data 50 days after we found it. We're getting them that data as soon as we find it, and they're able to operationalize it immediately. >> Right, and what are some of the actions that are the higher frequency that you've found, that you're triggering, that this process is helping you mitigate? >> I would say, actually, what it's really finding is some of our oldest vulnerabilities, a lot of stuff that people have just let fall off the plate. And they're isolated, right? They may have run patching for a specific vulnerability six months ago, but there was no view to tell them whether or not they got everything. Or maybe it was an asset that was off the network when they were patching, and now it's back on the network. So we're getting them the real-time visibility. Stuff that they may have missed, that they would have never seen before, without this integration. >> So I'd love to get your take on one of the top topics that came in the keynote this morning, both with Dick Clark as well as Philippe, was IoT-5G and the increasing surface-area, attack surface area, vulnerability surface area. You guys, Caterpillar's obviously well into internet of things. You've got a lot of connected devices. I'm sure you're excited about 5G, and I'm sure in a mining environment, or those types of environments are just prime 5G opportunities. Bad news is, your attack surface just grew exponentially. >> Yeah. >> So you're in charge of keeping track of vulnerabilities. How do you balance the opportunity, and what you see that's coming with 5G and connected devices and even a whole other rash of sensors, compared to the threat that you have to manage? >> Certainly in the IoT space it's unique. We can't do the things to those devices that we would do with normal laptops' assets, right? So I think figuring out unique ways to actually deal with them is going to be the hardest part. Finding vulnerabilities is always the easiest thing to do, but dealing with them is going to be the hard part. 5G is going to bring a whole new ballgame to a lot of the technology that we use. Our engineering groups are looking at those, and we're going to be partnering with them all the way through their journey on how to use 5G, how to use IoT to drive better services for our customers, and hopefully security will be with them the whole way. >> Right, the other piece that didn't get as much talk today, but it's a hot topic everywhere else we go is Edge, right? And this whole concept of, do you move the data, do you move the data to the computer or the computer to the data? I'm sure you guys are going to be leveraging Edge in a big way, when you're getting more of that horsepower closer to the sites. There's a lot of challenges with Edge. It's not a pristine data center. There are some nasty environmental conditions and you're limited in power, connectivity, and some of these other things. So when you think about Edge in your world, and maybe you're not thinking of it, but I bet you are, how are you seeing that, again, as an opportunity to bring more compute power closer to where you need it, closer to these vehicles? >> So I think, I wish I had our other security division here with me to talk about it. We're piloting a lot of those things, but that's been a big piece of our digital transformation at Caterpillar, is really leveraging data from those connected devices that are out in the field. And we actually, our Edge has to be brought closer to home. Our engineers pack so much into the little space they have on the devices that are out there, that they don't have room to actually calculate on that data that's out in the field, right? So we are actually bringing the Edge a little closer to home, in order for us to provide the best service for our customers. >> Right, so another take on digital transformation. You talked about Caterpillar's digital transformation. You've been there for five years now. Before that you were at State Farm. Checking on your LinkedIn, right? State Farm is the business of actuarial numbers, right? Caterpillar has got big heavy metal things, and yet you talk about digital transformation. How did you guys, how are you thinking about digital transformation in this heavy-equipment industry that's in construction? Probably not what most people think of as a digital enterprise, but in fact you guys are super aggressively moving in that direction. >> Yeah, and for us, from a securities perspective, it's been all about shift-left, right? We have to get embedded with these groups when they're designing these things. We have to be doing threat models. We have to be doing pen testing. We have to be doing that secure life cycle the entire way through the product. Because with our product line, unlike State Farm where we could easily just make a change to an application so that it was more secure, once we produce these vehicles, and once we roll them out and start selling them, they're out there. And we build our equipment to last, right? So there's not an expectation that a customer is going to come back and say, "I'm ready to buy a new truck two years from now," because of security vulnerability. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So, yeah, it's a big thing for us to get as early in the development life cycle as possible and partner with those groups. >> I'm curious in terms of the role of the embedded software systems in these things now, compared to what it was five years ago, 10 years ago 'cause you do need to upgrade it. And we've seen with Teslas, right? You get patches and upgrades and all types of things. So I would imagine you're probably a lot more Tesla-like than the Caterpillar of 20 years ago. >> Moving in that direction, and that is the goal, right? We want to be able to get the best services and the most quality services to our customers as soon as possible. >> Right, very cool. Well, Brian, next time we talk, I want to do it on a big truck. >> Okay. >> A big, yellow truck. >> Let's do it. >> I don't want to do it here at the Bellagio. >> Let's do it, all right. >> Okay, excellent. Well, thanks for-- >> Thank you. >> For taking a few minutes, really appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> All right, he's Brian, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at the Bellagio in Las Vegas, not on a big yellow truck, out in the middle of nowhere digging up holes and moving big dirt around. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Qualys Security Conference 2019, brought to you by Qualys. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in Las Vegas at the Bellagio, at the Qualys Security Conference, pretty amazing, it's been going on for 19 years, we heard in the keynote. It's our first time here, and we're excited to have our first guest, he was a keynote earlier this morning, the author of nine books, Richard Clarke, National Security and Cyber Risk expert, and author most recently of "The Fifth Domain." Dick, great to see you. >> Great to be with you. >> Absolutely. So you've been in this space for a very long time. >> I started doing cybersecurity in about 1996 or 1997. >> So early days. And preparing for this, I've watched some of your other stuff, and one of the things you said early on was before there was really nothing to buy. How ironic to think about that, that first there was a firewall, and basic kind of threat protection. Compare and contrast that to walking into RSA, which will be in a couple of months in Moscone, 50,000 people, more vendors than I can count on one hand, now there's too much stuff to buy. Do you look at this evolution? What's your take? And from a perspective of the CIO and the people responsible for protecting us, how should they work through this morass? >> Well, the CIO and the CFO, got used to thinking cyber security costs a little bit, 'cause you can only buy, this is 1997, you can only buy antivirus, firewall, and maybe, in 1997, you could buy an intrusion detection system. Didn't do anything, it just went "beep," but you could buy that too. So you had three things in 1997. And so that resulted in the IT budget having to take a tiny little bit of it, and put it aside for security, maybe 2%, 3% of the budget. Well, now, if you're only spending 2 or 3% of your IT budget on security, somebody owns your company, and it's not you (laughs). >> And that's 2 or 3% of the IT budget, that's not the whole budget. >> No, that's the IT budget. What we found in researching the book, is that secure companies, and there are some, there's companies that don't get hacked, or they get hacked, but the hack gets in, immediately contained, identified, quarantined. The damage is done, but it's easily repaired. Companies that are like that, the resilient companies, are spending 8%, 10%, we found companies at 12 and 17%, of their IT budget on security, and to your point, how many devices do you have to buy? You look at the floor at any of these RSA Conventions, Black Hat, or something, now there are 2000 companies at RSA, and they're all selling something, but their marketing message is all the same. So pity the poor CSO as she goes around trying to figure out, "Well, do I want to talk to that company? "What does it do?" We found that the big banks, and the big corporations, that are secure, have not three, anymore, but 75, 80, different, discreet cybersecurity products on their network, most of it software, some of it hardware. But if you've got 80 products, that's probably 60 vendors, and so you got to, for yourself, there's the big challenge, for a CSO, she's got to figure out, "What are the best products? "How do they integrate? "What are my priorities?" And, that's a tough task, I understand why a lot of the people want to outsource it, because it's daunting, especially for the small and medium-size business, you got to outsource it. >> Right, right. So the good news is, there's a silver lining. So traditionally, and you've talked about this, we talk about it all the time too, there's people that have been hacked and know it, and people that have been hacked and just don't know it yet, and the statistics are all over the map, anywhere you grab it, it used to be hundreds of days before intrusions were detected. Kind of the silver lining in your message is, with proper investments, with proper diligence and governance, you can be in that group, some they're trying to get in all the time, but you can actually stop it, you can actually contain it, you can actually minimize the damage. >> What we're saying is, used to be two kinds of companies, those that are hacked and knew it, and those that are hacked that don't, that didn't know it. Now there's a third kind of company. The company that's stopping the hack successfully, and the average, I think, is a 175 days to figure it out, now it's 175 minutes, or less. The attack gets in, there's all the five or six stages, of what's called "the attack killchain," and gets out very, very quickly. Human beings watching glass, looking at alerts, are not going to detect that and respond in time, it's got to be automated. Everybody says they got AI, but some people really do (laughs), and machine learning is absolutely necessary, to detect things out of the sea of data, 75 different kinds of devices giving you data, all of them alarming, and trying to figure out what's going on, and figure out in time, to stop that attack, quarantine it, you got to move very, very quickly, so you've got to trust machine learning and AI, you got to let them do some of the work. >> It's so funny 'cause people still are peeved when they get a false positive from their credit card company, and it's like (laughs), do you realize how many of those things are going through the system before one elevates to the level that you are actually getting an alert? >> So the problem has always been reducing the number of false positives, and identifying which are the real risks, and prioritizing, and humans can't do that anymore. >> Right, right, there's just too much data. So let's shift gears a little bit about in terms of how this has changed, and again, we hear about it over and over, right, the hacker used to be some malicious kid living in his mom's basement, being mischievous, maybe, actually doing some damage, or stealing a little money. Now it's government-funded, it's state attacks, for much more significant threats, and much more significant opportunities, targets of opportunity. You've made some interesting comments in some of your prior stuff, what's the role of the government? What's the role of the government helping businesses? What's the role of business? And then it also begs the question, all these multinational business, they don't even necessarily just exist in one place, but now, I've got to defend myself against a nation state, with, arguably, unlimited resources, that they can assign to this task. How should corporate CIOs be thinking about that, and what is the role, do you think, of the government? >> Let's say you're right. 20 years ago we actually used to see the number of cyber attacks go up on a Friday night and a Saturday night, because it was boys in their mother's basement who couldn't get a date, you know, and they were down there having fun with the computer. Now, it's not individuals who are doing the attacks. It is, as you say, nation states. It's the Russian Army, Russian Intelligence, Russian Military Intelligence, the GRU. The North Korean Army is funding its development of nuclear weapons by hacking companies and stealing money, all over the world, including central banks, in some cases. So, yeah, the threat has changed, and obviously, a nation state is going to be far more capable of attacking, military is going to be far more capable of attacking, so, CISOs say to me, "I'm being attacked by a foreign military, "isn't that the role of the Pentagon "to defend Americans, American companies?" And General Keith Alexander, who used to run Cyber Command, talks about, if a Russian bomber goes overhead, and drops a bomb on your plant, you expect the United States Air Force to intercept that Russian bomber, that's why you pay your taxes, assuming you pay taxes. What's the difference? General Alexander says, whether that's a Russian bomber attacking your plant, or a Russian cyber attack, attacking your plant, and he says, therefore, people should assume the Pentagon will protect them from foreign militaries. That sounds nice. There's a real ring of truth to that, right? But it doesn't work. I mean, how could the Pentagon defend your regional bank? How could the Pentagon defend the telephone company, or a retail store? It can't. It can barely defend itself, and they're not doing a great job of that either, defending the federal government. So, do you really want the Pentagon putting sensors on your network? Looking at your data? No, you don't. Moreover, they can't. They don't have enough people, they don't have enough skills. At the end of the day, whatever the analogy is about how the Defense Department should defend us from foreign military attack, they can't. And they shouldn't, by the way, in my view. The conclusion that that gets you to, is you got to defend yourself, and you can, right now, if you use the technology that exists. The government has a role, sure. It can provide you warnings, it can provide the community with intelligence, it can fund development and stuff, can train people, but it cannot defend your network, you have to defend your network. >> And you have municipalities, I think it's Atlanta, is the one that keeps getting hit, there's-- >> Well Louisiana, just the other night, the whole state of Louisiana government unplugged from the internet, because it was being hit by a ransomware attack. The whole city of Baltimore's been down, the whole city of Atlanta, as you said. There's a real problem here, because people, many of them are paying the ransom, and they pay the ransom, and they get their network back right away. People ask me, "Can I trust these criminals?" Well you can trust them to give you your network back, because they have a reputation to maintain. Think about that. This whole thing about ransomware depends on their reputation, the bad guys' reputation. If they get a reputation for not giving you your network back when you pay, no one's ever going to pay, so they do give it back, and sometimes that's a lot quicker, and a lot cheaper, than saying no and rebuilding your network. But if we give them the money, what are they doing with it? Yeah, they're buying Ferraris to drive round the streets of Moscow, but some of that money is going back into R&D, so they can develop more effective attacks. >> So it's an interesting take, right, so most people, I think, would say that the cybersecurity war is completely always going to be kind of cat and mouse, whack-a-mole, that the bad guys are always a little step ahead, and you're always trying to catch up, just the way the innovation cycle works. You specifically say no, that's not necessarily always true, that there are specific things you can do to, not necessarily have an impenetrable wall, but to really minimize the impact and neutralize these threats, like a super white blood cell, if you will. So what are those things that companies should be doing, to better increase their probability, their chance, of, I don't know, blocking-- >> Depends on the size of the company. >> Absorbing. >> Depends on the size of the company. But I think whether you're a small-to-medium business, or you're an enterprise, you begin in the same place. And I do this with all of my consulting contracts, I sit down with the leadership of the company individually, and I ask every one of them, "What are you worried about? "What could happen? "What could a bad guy do to you "that matters to your company?" 'Cause what matters to one company may not matter to another company. And you can't spend your entire budget defending the network, so let's figure out exactly what risk we're worried about, and what risk we're just kind of willing to tolerate. And then, we can design security around that, and sometimes that security will be outsourced, to a managed security provider. A lot of it means getting into the cloud, because if you're in Amazon or Microsoft's cloud, you've got some security automatically built in, they've got thousands of people doing the security of the cloud, and if your server's in your basement, good luck. (laughs) >> So, as you look forward, now you said you finished the book earlier in the year, it gets published, and it's out, and that's great, but as you said, it's a fast-moving train, and the spaces develops. 10 years from now, we don't want to look at 10 years from now, it's way too long. But as you look forward the next couple, two, three years, what are you keeping an eye on, that's going to be, again, another sea change of both challenge and opportunity in this space? >> The three technologies we talk about in the book, for the three-year time horizon, 'cause I can't get beyond three years, more machine learning on the defense, but also more machine learning on the offense, and where does that balance work out? To whose advantage? Secondly, quantum computing, which, we don't know how rapidly quantum computing will come onto the market, but we do know it's a risk for some people, in that it might break encryption, if the bad guys get their hands on the quantum computer, so that's a worry. But one I think most immediately, is 5G. What 5G allows people to do, is connect millions of things, at high speed, to the internet. And a lot of those things that will be connected are not defended right now, and are outside firewalls, and don't have end-point protection, and aren't really built into networks on a secure network. So I worry about 5G empowering the Internet of Things, and doing what we call expanding the attack surface, I worry about that. >> Right, Richard, well thank you for taking a few minutes, and congrats on the book, and I'm sure within a couple of years the gears will start turning and you'll put pen to paper and kick another one out for us. >> Number 10. >> All right. He's Richard, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at the Qualys Security Conference at the Bellagio in Las Vegas, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to San Francisco, everybody. My name is David Lantz. I'm here with my co host John Troia. This is Day three of V M World 2019 2 sets. >> This is >> our 10th year at the M. World Cube is the leader in live enterprise tech coverage. Marry on Blondie is here. He's the C m o and chief evangelist that 10 tree by DDN Yes, sir. He's joined by Graham Breezes The Field CTO at 10 Tree also by DDN Recent acquisition jets Great to see you. >> Likewise, as they say, we're back. I like I like to call it a hibernation in the sense that people may have not known where did Ian or 10 Trias and Tension by Dede and, as the name implies, were acquired a year ago at the M World August 31st of 2018. And in the year since, we've been ableto invest in engineering support, my joining the company in marketing to take this solution, we've been able to save thousands of customers millions of man hours and bring it to a larger number of users. Way >> first saw 10 tree, we said, Wow, this is all about simplification. And Jonah Course you remember that when you go back to the early early Dick Cube days of of'em World, very complex storage was a major challenge. 10 Tree was all about simplifying that. Of course, we know DDN as well is the high performance specialist and have worked with those guys for a number of years. But take >> us >> back Married to the original vision of 10 Cherie. Is that original vision still alive? How was it evolved? >> Well, I'd say that it's, ah, number one reason why we're a part of the DD and family of brands because, as, ah, portfolio company, they're looking good. Bring technologies. I'm the marketing guy for our enterprise or virtual ization audience, and the product sets that cover high performance computing have their own audience. So for me, I'm focused on that. Graham's also focused on that, and, uh, really what continues to make us different today is the fact we were designed to learn from the beginning to understand how virtual machines end to end work with infrastructure. And that's really the foundation of what makes us different today. The same thing, right? >> So from the very beginning we were we were built to understand the work clothes that we service in the data center. So and that was virtual machines. We service those on multiple hyper visors today in terms of being able to understand those workloads intrinsically gives us a tremendous capability. Thio place. I owe again understanding that the infrastructure network storage, hyper visor, uh, weaken view that end end in terms of a latent a graph and give customers and insight into the infrastructure how it's performing. I would say that we're actually extending that further ways in terms of additional workload that we're gonna be able to take on later this year. >> So I know a lot >> of storage admits, although I I only play one on >> TV, but, uh, no, consistently >> throughout the years, right? 10 tree user experiences that is the forefront there. And in fact, they they often some people have said, You know what? I really want to get something done. I grab my tent Reeboks and so it can't talk. Maybe some examples of one example of why the user experience how the user experiences differ or why, why it's different. >> I'll start off by saying that I had a chance being new to the company just two weeks to meet a lot of 10 tree users. And prior to taking the job, I talkto us some folks behind the scenes, and they all told me the same thing. But what I was so interested to hear is that if they didn't have 10 tree, they'd otherwise not have the time to do the automation work, the research work, the strategy work or even the firefighting that's vital to their everyday operations. Right? So it's like, of course, I don't need to manage it. If I did, I wouldn't be able to do all these other things. And I think that's it. Rings true right that it's hard to quantify that time savings because people say, 0 1/2 of it. See, that's really not much of the greater scheme of things. I don't know. 1/2 50. Working on strategic program is a huge opportunity. Let's see >> the value of 10 tree to our end users and we've heard from a lot of them this week actually spent a fantastic event hearing from many of our passionate consumers. From the very beginning. We wanted to build a product that ultimately customers care about, and we've seen that this week in droves. But I would say the going back to what they get out of it. It's the values and what they don't have to do, so they don't have to carve up ones. They don't have to carve up volumes. All they have to do is work with the units of infrastructure that air native to their environment, v ems. They deal with everything in their environment from our virtual machine perspective, virtual machines, one thing across the infrastructure. Again, they can add those virtual machines seamlessly. They can add those in seconds they don't have toe size and add anything in terms of how am I gonna divide up the storage coming in a provisional I Oh, how am I going to get the technical pieces right? Uh, they basically just get place v EMS, and we have a very simplistic way to give them Ah, visualization into that because we understand that virtual machine and what it takes to service. It comes right back to them in terms of time savings that are tremendous in terms of that. >> So let's deal with the elephant in the room. So, so 10 tree. We've talked about all the great stuff in the original founding vision. But then I ran into some troubles, right? And so what? How do you deal with that with customers in terms of just their perception of what what occurred you guys did the eye poets, et cetera, take us through how you're making sure customers are cool with you guys. >> I'm naturally, glass is half full kind of guy from previous, uh, times on the Cube. The interesting thing is, not a lot of people actually knew. Maybe we didn't create enough brand recognition in the past for people to even know that there was a transition. There were even some of our customers. And Graham, you can pile on this that because they don't manage the product every day because they don't have to. It's kind of so easy they even for gotten a lot about it on don't spend a lot of time. I'd say that the reason why we are able to continue. Invest today a year after the acquisition is because retaining existing customers was something that was very successful, and to a lot of them, you can add comments. It wasn't easy to switch to something. They could just switch to something else because there's no other product, does these automatic things and provides the predictive modeling that they're used to. So it's like what we switched to so they just kept going, and to them, they've given us a lot of great feedback. Being owned by the largest private storage company on planet Earth has the advantages of strong source of supply. Great Leverett reverse logistics partnerships with suppliers as a bigger company to be able to service them. Long >> trial wasn't broke, so you didn't need to fix it. And you were ableto maintain obviously a large portion of that customer base. And what was this service experience like? And how is that evolving? And what is Dede and bring to the table? >> So, uh, boy DD and brings so many resources in terms of bringing this from the point when they bought us last year. A year ago today, I think we transition with about 40 people in the company. We're up about 200 now, so Ah, serious investment. Obviously, that's ah have been a pretty heavy job in terms of building that thing back up. Uh, service and support we've put all of the resource is the stated goal coming across the acquisition was they have, ah, 10. Tree support tender by DNC would be better than where 10 tree support was. We fought them on >> rate scores, too. So it's hard to go from there. Right? And >> I would say what we've been doing on that today. I mean, in terms of the S L. A's, I think those were as good as they've ever been from that perspective. So we have a big team behind us that are working really hard to make sure that the customer experience is exactly what we want. A 10 tree experience to be >> So big messages at this This show, of course, multi cloud kubernetes solving climate change, fixing the homeless problem in San Francisco. I'm not hearing that from you guys. What's what's your key message to the VM world? >> Well, I personally believe that there's a lot of opportunity to invest in improving operations that are already pretty darn stable, operating these environments, talking to folks here on the floor. These new technologies you're talking about are certainly gonna change the way we deploy things. But there's gonna be a lot of time left Still operating virtualized server infrastructure and accelerating VD I deployments to just operationalized things better. We're hoping that folks choose some new technologies out there. I mean, there's a bill was a lot of hype in past years. About what technology to choose. We're all flash infrastructure, but well, I'd liketo for the say were intelligent infrastructure. We have 10 and 40 get boards were all flash, but that's not what you choose this. You choose this because you're able to take their operations and spend more your time on the apse because you're not messing around with that low level infrastructure. I think that there's a renaissance of, of, of investment and opportunity to innovate in that space into Graham's point about going further up the stack. We now have data database technology that we can show gives database administrators the direct ability to self service their own cloning, their own, staging their own operations, which otherwise would be a complex set of trouble tickets internally to provision the environment. Everyone loves to self service. That's really big. I think our customers love. It's a self service aspect. I see the self service and >> the ability to d'oh again, not have to worry about all the things that they don't have to do in terms of again not having to get into those details. A cz Morrow mentioned in terms of the database side, that's, ah, workload, the workload intelligence that we've already had for virtual machines. We can now service that database object natively. We're going to do sequel server later this year, uh, being ableto again, being able to see where whether or not they've got a host or a network or a storage problem being able to see where those the that unit they're serving, having that inside is tremendously powerful. Also being able the snapshot to be able to clone to be able thio manage and protect that database in a native way. Not having to worry about, you know, going into a console, worrying about the underlying every structure, the ones, the volumes, all the pieces that might people people would have to get involved with maybe moving from, like, production to test and those kinds of things. So it's the simplicity, eyes all the things that you really don't have to do across the getting down in terms of one's the volumes, the sizing exercises one of our customers put it. Best thing. You know, I hear a lot of things back from different customer. If he says the country, the sentry box is the best employee has >> I see that way? Reinvest, Reinvest. I haven't heard a customer yet that talks about reducing staff. Their I t staff is really, really critical. They want to invest up Kai throw buzzword out there, Dev. Ops. You didn't mention that it's all about Dev ops, right? And one thing that's interesting here is were or ah, technology that supports virtual environments and how many software developers use virtual environments to write, test and and basically developed programmes lots and being able to give those developers the ability to create new machines and be very agile in the way they do. Their test of is awesome and in terms of just taking big amounts of data from a nap, if I can circling APP, which is these virtual machines be ableto look at that on the infrastructure and more of her copy data so that I can do stuff with that data. All in the flying virtualization we think of Dev Ops is being very much a cloud thing. I'd say that virtual ization specifically server virtualization is the perfect foundation for Dav ops like functionality. And what we've been able to do is provide that user experience directly to those folks up the stacks of the infrastructure. Guy doesn't have to touch it. I wanted to pull >> a couple of threads together, and I think because we talked about the original vision kind of E m r centric, VM centric multiple hyper visors now multi cloud here in the world. So what >> are you seeing >> in the customers? Is that is it? Is it a multi cloud portfolio? What? What are you seeing your customers going to in the future with both on premise hybrid cloud public. So where does where does 10 tree fit into the storage portfolio? >> And they kind of >> fit all over the map. I think in terms of the most of the customers that we have ultimately have infrastructure on site and in their own control. We do have some that ultimately put those out in places that are quote unquote clouds, if you will, but they're not in the service. Vendor clouds actually have a couple folks, actually, that our cloud providers. So they're building their own clouds to service customers using market. What >> differentiates service is for serving better d our offerings because they can offer something that's very end end for that customer. And so there's more. They monetize it. Yeah, and I think those type of customers, like the more regional provider or more of a specialty service provider rather than the roll your own stuff, I'd say that Generally speaking, folks want tohave a level of abstraction as they go into new architecture's so multi cloud from a past life I wrote a lot about. This is this idea that I don't have to worry about which cloud I'm on to do what I'm doing. I want to be able to do it and then regards of which clouded on it just works. And so I think that our philosophy is how we can continue to move up the stack and provide not US access to our analytics because all that analytic stuff we do in machine learning is available via a P I We have ah v r o plug in and all that sort of stuff to be able allow that to happen. But when we're talking now about APS and how those APS work across multiple, you know, pieces of infrastructure, multiple V EMS, we can now develop build a composite view of what those analytics mean in a way that really now gives them new inside test. So how can I move it over here? Can I move over here? What's gonna happen if I move it over here over there? And I think that's the part that should at least delineate from your average garden variety infrastructure and what we like to call intelligent infrastructure stopping that can, Actually that's doing stuff to be able to give you that data because there's always a way you could do with the long way. Just nobody has time to do with the long way, huh? No. And I would actually say that you >> know what you just touched on, uh, going back to a fundamental 10 tree. Different churches, getting that level of abstraction, right is absolutely the key to what we do. We understand that workload. That virtual machine is the level of abstraction. It's the unit infrastructure within a virtual environment in terms of somebody who's running databases. Databases are the unit of infrastructure that they want to manage. So we line exactly to the fundamental building blocks that they're doing in those containers, certainly moving forward. It's certainly another piece we're looking. We've actually, uh I think for about three years now, we've been looking pretty hard of containers. We've been waiting to see where customers were at. Obviously Of'em were put. Put some things on the map this week in terms of that they were pretty excited about in terms of looking in terms of how we would support. >> Well, it certainly makes it more interesting if you're gonna lean into it with someone like Vienna where behind it. I mean, I still think there are some questions, but I actually like the strategy of because if I understand it correctly of Visa, the sphere admin is going to see the spear. But ah ah, developers going to see kubernetes. So >> yeah, that's kind of cool. And we just want to give people an experience, allows them to self service under the control of the I T department so that they can spend less time on infrastructure. Just the end of the I haven't met a developer that even likes infrastructure. They love to not have to deal with it at all. They only do it out. It assessed even database folks They love infrastructural because they had to think about it. They wanted to avoid the pitfalls of bad infrastructure infrastructures Code is yeah, way we believe in that >> question. Go to market. Uh, you preserve the 10 tree name so that says a lot. What's to go to market like? How are you guys structuring the >> organizational in terms of, ah, parent company perspective or a wholly owned subsidiary of DDN? So 10 tree by DDN our go to market model is channel centric in the sense that still a vast majority of people who procure I t infrastructure prefer to use an integrator or reseller some sort of thing. As far as that goes, what you'll see from us, probably more than you did historically, is more work with some of the folks in the ecosystem. Let's say in the data protection space, we see a rubric as an example, and I think you can talk to some of that scene where historically 10 Tree hadn't really done. It's much collaboration there, but I think now, given the overall stability of the segment and people knowing exactly where value could be added, we have a really cool joint story and you're talking about because your team does that. >> Yeah, so I would certainly say, you know, in terms of go to market Side, we've been very much channel lead. Actually, it's been very interesting to go through this with the channel folks. It's a There's also a couple other pieces I mentioned you mentioned some of the cloud provider. Some of those certainly crossed lines between whether they're MSP is whether they are resellers, especially as we go to our friends across the pond. Maybe that's the VM it'll Barcelona discussion, but some of those were all three, right? So there are customer their service providers there. Ah ah, channel partner if you want terms of a resellers. So, um, it's been pretty interesting from that perspective. I think the thing is a lot of opportunity interview that Certainly, uh, I would say where we're at in terms of, we're trying to very much. Uh, we understand customers have ecosystems. I mean, Marco Mitchem, the backup spaces, right? Uh, customers. We're doing new and different things in there, and they want us to fit into those pieces. Ah, and I'd certainly say in the world that we're in, we're not tryingto go solve and boil the ocean in terms of all the problems ourselves we're trying to figure out are the things that we can bring to the table that make it easier for them to integrate with us And maybe in some new and novel, right, >> So question So what's the number one customer problem that when you guys hear you say, that's our wheelhouse, we're gonna crush the competition. >> I'll let you go first, >> So I'd say, you know, if they have a virtualized environment, I mean, we belong there. Vermin. Actually, somebody said this bed is the best Earlier again. Today in the booze is like, you know, the person who doesn't have entries, a person who doesn't know about 10 tree. If they have a virtual environment, you know, the, uh I would say that this week's been pretty interesting. Lots of customer meetings. So it's been pretty, pretty awesome, getting a lot of things back. But I would say the things that they're asking us to solve our not impossible things. They're looking for evolution's. They're looking for things in terms of better insights in their environment, maybe deeper insights. One of the things we're looking to do with the tremendous amount of data we've got coming back, Um, got almost a million machines coming back to us in terms of auto support data every single night. About 2.3 trillion data points for the last three years, eh? So we're looking to make that data that we've gotten into meaningful consumable information for them. That's actionable. So again, again, what can we see in a virtual environment, not just 10 tree things in terms of storage of those kinds of things, but maybe what patches they have installed that might be affecting a network driver, which might affect the certain configuration and being able to expose and and give them some actionable ways to go take care of those problems. >> All right, we gotta go marry. I'll give you. The last word >> stated simply if you are using virtual, is a Shinto abstract infrastructure. As a wayto accelerate your operations, I run the M where, if you have ah 100 virtual machine, 150 virtual machines, you could really benefit from maybe choosing a different way to do that. Do infrastructure. I can't say the competition doesn't work. Of course, the products work. We just want hope wanted hope that folks could see that doing it differently may produce a different outcome. And different outcomes could be good. >> All right, Mario Graham, Thanks very much for coming to the cubes. Great. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you for watching John Troy a day Volante. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching the cube?

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen brought to you by bread. >> Welcome back to the Cube and our continuing coverage here. The Red had summit. This is six time around for us. Fifth time for stew minimum. So he still gets almost the perfect attendance. Goldmark. First time for me. So still have a lot of catching up to do. Stewed minimum. John Walls and Steve Spiker now joins us. He is the senior principal product manager. Developer tools, Red Hat and Steve. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Let's just talk about first off development in general. I mean, there's a lot of give and take there, right? You're tryingto listen. What air? The needs. Where the deficiencies, Where can the improvements be made? But how much do you drive that on your side and how much do listen and respond to do what? You're here for. The community. >> Yeah, we do a little bit of both. And so a lot of it is responding to the community, and that's one of the areas that Red has really excelled. Is taking what's popular, what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable pot product or stable solution that developers can use. But we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present. So we start from, like, various run times to actually contain our platforms. And so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help Dr Phil that because we hear it from customers a lot, it's like things you're doing are great. But like there's all these projects that need to come together sort of a product or unified experience. And so we spent a lot of our time China bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different task and also focus across like not just a job run times which we have a lot of job. >> So you might have it. You might have an in product in mind, right? And you realize that there might be a gap in terms of development, so you encourage or you try to bridged that gap a little bit. To get to that in product is that you're saying Yeah, >> so we do a lot of things to help build the pieces so that people can sometimes build their own experiences. They want. In the end, developers control kind of their own destiny, their own set of tools and a lot of customers have their own unique requirements, even like some tools they develop in house for loans, kind of regulatory reasons and other things. And so we have two, one build the pieces but also stitched the pieces together to help them have that kind of out of the box experience. Because some some customers really don't want to do that. They just want to say one kind of a turnkey solution. But then we may need to make some adjustments here and there. >> Yeah, but by Steve, you know, it's it's funny. It rhymes for me with what I saw, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago with Lennox. A lot of changes, a lot of pieces. I want to take advantage of it. But you know, a boy can somebody help me with this and you know that that's of course. Red hat rode that way pretty well right Today, cupidity is even more sprawling. There's so many different projects. There's so many pieces boy. It is complicated on DH. Therefore, how do we take advantage of that? What do I need to know? What can my platform a vendor do for me so that I don't have to manage that? Yeah, I love you. Spanned on that gives us a little bit of comparing trash. You know what's the same? What's different? Yeah, and so >> there's different aspects. I think the developer experience one thing that we talked about. It's like it just works sometimes. So, like it's if it's Cooper days. We've spent a lot time making sure it's hardened and works well. So you're not like debugging it, spending time on things that waist development time. Instead, That way, folks let on that. We also look at how we can build abstraction layers on top of that. So we built a Seelye tool called Rodeo, which is a developed, streamlined developer experience for open shift, and it's really focused on open ship. That way, that developer really just can focus on their application. They could deploy it, taken quickly, work on the changes before they commit to get, and then they can then also have a similar experience in the browser with things like Eclipse Jr Code or Dick workspaces are I got commercial offering behind that and that takes actually using the platform itself to do development, which is really, really super cool so that you can have an idea and the browser. You can also have the workspace like you're all your dependencies, like everything you would normally have on your laptop now don't need to worry about. It's now containerized and quickly spun up as a way to do development. And it's really a thing that enterprises really enjoy because they get like, quick satisfaction, like they get the stuff off the proprietary code off the death up there using their container platform, and it's building the same way they would build when they >> deployed my backgrounds on the infrastructure side. And the whole reason we have infrastructure to be able to run our abs and the Holy Grail we've wanted is you know, not not my developers. I shouldn't need to think about the stuff underneath, right? We looked at virtual ization. We look a container ization. You know, the nirvana of server lists, as they call it, is that I shouldn't have to think about that you know how we doing? Because at the end of the day, and I talked to users like Oh, jeez, well, I need to worry. What if something breaks? I need to understand the security for my environment. You know what you're seeing and talking to customers about it from there. Stop development. Yes, so they're able >> tto. It's like here's different stories, like Tool, Factor act. So it's like if you stay in certain parameters, you can have a lot of success, and that's still kind of true today. Survivalist kind of takes that to the next level, where you can really just have a predefined either a function spectacle o two and then things are really easy, and you don't have to worry about various aspects. But even though you look at the various vendors when you're working with different functions, it's even complex like, Oh, I need to provide the security on you. Make sure he sees a wire together. How do I log these things? How do I debugged when things across this mesh go wrong? And so it's like it's getting getting better. But there's still a lot of work to do to continue to improve that, and you will see a lot of innovation happening in that area, especially the work that we're working on. >> What kind of given take do you have in terms of what? Not only what is that community learning from you and the tools that you're providing them? But what are you getting back from that other than, you know, advancing a project or whatever, in terms of expertise, in terms of understanding, maybe a new wayto to build a different mouse trap. You know that someone comes up with an interesting idea. You're like, >> Wow, I >> didn't take that. Yeah, I think that's >> where, like the partnerships we've had with various companies before you go off starting out with Cooper Netease Anything in the Cave Native project last year. And that really took a different way of looking at serve elicit, moving it forward to say, Yeah, this is this is a different way. We thought about how we would do this on Cooper nowadays, even kind of like you abstract that ap I away. And it's like it's just to keep native of survivalists and then Karina use this kind of implementation detail behind that even and So that's really interesting to see things like that. And then also the recent work announcements with Microsoft and the azure functions where people like they maybe, you know, into the event sources there they would make sure that were close. That they're doing the functions are building, are running on Cooper Netease and our communities is is open shift. So it's really kind of completing the life cycle. >> So what if we could just step act, you know, if you talk about communities and open ships specifically, you've got you know, you've got partnership with Google and they've got the geeky and Antos stuff. You've got partnership for the Amazon, you know, they've got a ks, these things, they're not fully seamless and interoperable. It's, you know, I usually hear some confusion in the marketplace as to, you know, communities can run lots of places, but all the various you know, if you choose an implementation well, that your implementation and you should run that everywhere. Not I can't take all the various implementations and they're not inter swappable. So maybe you could help expand on that A little bit is toe, you know what's the goal? Where are we with this maturity here and you know, where do we need it to get? Because, you know, boy, it definitely is a little bit complicated. Least, you know, from the seat that I sit in Yeah. So it's >> somewhat complex, I think, goes back to your early days talking about letting she's like you would say you have an application that could run anywhere. They have Lenox this kind of truth. You know, there's always like certain security settings or packages you have enabled. That just holds true for elected Kuban aged world as well. You can lock it down a certain way. You could open it up a certain way. And so you see a lot of content that's delivered, assuming certain like privileges I have on the system and other systems that don't allow it. And so I think, more and more we see through the standardization something we could study in conformance testing. It really helps people like No, we want our getting in their hands. On an instance. It's really, you know, a full fledged communities or the part that they care about the most is working out well. And so I see that gave me the evil by also see tools that kind of abstract, even more so like a native, is a mentioned sort of survivalist workloads or functions themselves and then even house tool in kind of works. On top of that, like Natively understands the platform, that platform and those requirements to move those applications across the different systems because we have a lot of customers who run open ship communities as well as like many other good bearnaise kind of instances that so they have. We have this requirement to make sure we stay conforming, allow them to make sure the were closer portable, and it's an important part to move forward. So I still think there's a lot of work to be done toe to make these things a smoother processes. It's a lot of interesting things going on, though, >> So any interesting tens with workloads that's one of things we always look at is, you know, um, I just taking the old workloads. Am I doing them in a new place Or, you know, are there new new workloads and anything jumping out at you from customers that you talk to? >> Yes. So the way talk I know I mentioned several See multiple times a whole idea around this auto scaling. And Lou only losing your uplink your resources when you need to is a big deal. So we see a lot more and more of those kind of small function, single purpose things that are occurring up until, like, machine learning. Big data. It just continues. A GPU resource is we talked about running a V EMS and cos when I first heard this, like four years ago, I laughed out loud, and I really don't know. Their seriousness is something that happens. And, yeah, it's becoming mainstream now. So now kind of everything kind of fits within the current. You know, orchestrator of those workloads. >> You're not laughing anymore, right? No. No, because there's someone areas in which your concerns are certainly understandable securities. One of those a lot of attention being paid automation these days, right? And a lot of opportunity there. Is there one, or are there a couple areas where you say this is kind of where we have maybe greener pastures in terms of providing developers with really unusual tools are really more sophisticated, more complex or effective tools than than in any other area where you could use that kind of a boost. >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of things, but one thing that I see in this area is still a lot of fragmentation, like I'm not sure if I see you like this kind of a single way that things work, seeing a lot of great work, like with the Microsoft GS code tooling pieces. And I'm just saying that from an abstraction way to bring certain things together. Nice work going with Microsoft, the committee's plugging for there, and we were collaborating with them on that to extend it for some of the open shift use cases. But that just kind of moves, I think Mohr to beat the developers where they're at and will continue to invest across the different set of tools like I do, the more you keep up with these list of all these tools in the ecosystem. Everytime I present it, someone says, I don't know about those, but here's Maura that I didn't know about it, so this is just continues to grow and people continue to innovate, and I think it just think it's exciting because we continue Teo to evolve it. So I know think there's much in the way of kind of narrowing down on a smaller set of things. I think it's going to continue to expand in the sense. >> Speaking of expansion at Microsoft build yesterday, there was announcement of beloved Taquito K d a. A ce your functions with open shift. Help us parts a little bit. What, what that is. >> Yeah. So what that's about is really taking Thea's your functions and allowing those workloads to Warren on open ship because they're targeted towards Cuba. Netease and, of course, open ship those grenades distribution. So it allows that to happen. There's also that it's a unique auto scaler that kind of allows workload to be more surveillance run. So then also it's it ties into some of the azure event sorts of soul like thee. The message Cuba and bus Kafka that's there. And so now you can wire in yours your pieces, you can run it across here. Either hosted is your or on open shift with those of your function. >> Okay, just to clarify this is today separate from the K Native Initiative that you were talking about earlier. >> Yes, that's right. So this is touching on some of those points and the idea behind this project. This liken early preview announcer was like showing some progress, but they're looking in wiring in some of the chips. Start the kidney of serving pieces to allow running in those applications on open ship, but also the need of events sources. So you can take combination events and triggers your functions and do some of these exciting things. >> Can I ask you, you're doing sessions here at this show? You know how many of the people here you know, talking about survivalists and looking at that bleeding edge or there? There are other technologies that you find them spending a little bit more time in the tooling. It's >> a wide range. I'm really shocked by what some of the customers are like. Bleeding edge Kate made. It was like, Oh, you know, we saw whatever zero dot three release out there with this, and we'd really like this auto scaling capability because we're spending a lot of money running these applications that are not doing anything, So we like the better auto scaler that's out there. The others are really just like trying to understand more about container technology. I was just talking to Jen one early after a session. He's like, This is what we're trying to do. We need to contain your eyes applications. How do I build a CIA pipeline around it? So it's a It's a wide range of things you see here. Well, >> you certainly at the center of this inspiration, the innovation of the industry. I know you're an exciting place, and it's kind of something new every day for you. Probably right. >> Oh, it is. Yeah. Especially when these big conference and announcements come >> out. Gear up, right? Yeah, Exactly. Good job, Steve. Thank you for joining us here. We appreciate the time and wish you well down the road. >> Take me much. Enjoyed being on >> you, Steve Spiker from Red Hat. Joining this here for the first time on the Q. Good to have you, Steve. Good Have you with us as we continue our coverage from Boston. But the Red Hat Summit

>> All right, Cool. We'll go with the first round of this, and we'll see how the central roles perfect. Uh, three, two and one. All right, I'm here with our guests. Chase Phelps, the director of sports science at Stanford University. Chase has an amazing background, and I was fortunate enough to work underneath him at Stanford. Chase is more than versatile. He has a deep understanding in regards to human physiology, but also the technology involved in monitoring athletes and performance in general. So, Chase, I'll let you take it away here, and I can't talk about yourself and the journey that you tell to get to where you are. I personally heard it multiple times. It's quite interesting. And for those listeners out there is going to be a good experience to hear exactly how someone chases esteem, Got to where he is, how the road's not always quite a straight line. >> Well, I appreciate you having me on II. You must be getting the checks in the mail to have that type of intro because that's way over the top on how good I am with my job. But I appreciate it. Um, so I think for me. You know, it started, I think, for a lot of us being in the gym as an athlete, Uh, you know, kind of being one of those guys has gotta work harder. Teo, you know, catch up with the other people who are coming naturally talented. So I started office of your general meathead in the gym in high school, doing all the dumb lab bench incline bench declined, bench checked back into, you know, all the flies, you, Khun Dio, and kind of started to figure out that, ah, I needed, you know, um or scientific way, I guess toe train myself and started out going to a velocity sports informants and, you know, one of those big kind of box performance gyms and got hooked up really, really lucky. Got hooked up with some people who at the time, I didn't know where were ahead of the game, but kind of started giving me the wise behind, you know, all the things I was doing in the gym and sort of kind of carbon that path for laying the foundation. So to say so I went to Undergrad, play the cross in college, Um, and they're so science piece started the internships to be a traditional sec coach on the floor, huh? I did. Let's see. Old Dominion. Radford, Virginia Attack. I AMG performance. Um, you know, just kind of laying the coaching trenches, laying down in the trenches, trying tow, kind of get myself the experience necessary to move ahead of Attritional SEC coach. So I got really lucky and that I got a job at Hampton University is an assistant. And within about seven months of being there, the director at the time up and left and they had nobody to help out with football, they have to take over. And really at an age that was way too young for me to be in that role, and so that was kind of my first, you know, probably fire experience, being twenty three years old, heading up, you know, the one double a football for him, still division one football team where I >> it >> was pretty pretty novice at the time. And while I didn't mess anything up to bad, it was definitely I would change a lot of what I did at the time. So I looked back on an experience that was extremely valuable. But from there, I actually had a stent where I was unemployed. So ah, little life lesson is, I took somebody's word on a job without having it written out and quit my job at Hampton, thinking I had this position set up and literally it fell through. The guy was like, Hey, listen, it's not gonna happen. I don't know what to tell you. I'm really sorry. So for seven months, I worked at local gyms, private personal training, training athletes on the side. You're basically doing anything I needed to do. Teo maintain coaching, but also keeping income going. Ah, and it's kind of funny because a lot of people don't appreciate that type of setting and the personal training. You're either strength coach. It's not personal training, you know. And, ah, a lot of the stuff that I do now, I still you know, I remember picking out because I was working with the client with rheumatoid arthritis, right? So, like your ability to to regress and a purple issues exercise selections for somebody who's sixty years old and is not very mobile translates very well to return to play in an athlete who just had maybe on a C L surgery on. So I looked back on that time is kind of a weird one in my life, but it was extremely valuable, you know, and my experiences. So I got really lucky. And the networking piece fell together and ended up working with the Naval Special Operations and kind of finding a role in the humor for men's branch. There, Bro is there for a little over three years. I >> it >> was just incredibly lucky to work with some of the people there, Mark Stevenson and and a lot of other guys who are still working there. They're still there now, but they're just they're pushing the field for doing a lot of things behind the scenes that I think really kind of kicked off the sports science. See Dick in the in the U. S and the last, you know, six to eight years on DH. So I was really fortunate toe kind of diversify. My experiences there really start looking at performance and training. I don't want to say like that buzzword of holistic, but just how my diversifying my ability to understand which discipline is doing, whether it's a mental performance coach, our nutritionist or sex, our physical therapist. But how can I better understand those fields, too? Then, you know, make sure that everything I'm doing is complimenting what they're doing on DH. So I was able to land the job at Stanford initially just to run the sports science department. But I also got a little coaching duties. On the side is I work with men soccer. So it's been, Ah, it's been all over the place, you know, traditionally in athletics, but, you know, a little bit of Gen file here. Besides, well, >> so Chase bast fully passed over Hiss lacrosse career, right? And how many was that? Multi time All America. Is that correct? >> I had a couple of years where else? Pretty successful. So, uh, >> and I think that's extremely important to highlight because being an athlete, you deal with all these departments firsthand. You see it from their perspective. And so one thing that Chase has really taught me, I was going forward learning about how you contain to challenge yourself, to put yourself into positions that other people are end. And how do you then think about your actions and what you're going to do as a sports scientist in regard to how and not on ly influences the athlete but the coaches and other staff around him and being an athlete, you firsthand get to experience how it is to have someone else trying to intervene on your daily routine. And that's also mention that Chase is now someone who on what level of ju jitsu he's in. But I know he's tough enough to beat the daylights out of me. And that's something as well has taught me. Is that put yourself in situations where you have to be a beginner again and challenge yourself to have tto learn from Square one. We get caught in these ruts of progress, progress, progress. You go from a beginner. When you first learned how to swing a baseball bat to now you're planned higher level travelling. Baseball is part of your life for myself. Basketball, the chase has taught me, is really embrace those opportunities of struggle and whatever way that comes in its shape and form and put you in those positions. So you have the ability to actually learn from that. And now mention that chase in regards to beat an athlete I think there's many things that we overlook as coaches. We apply the idea of an external load, right. We give them sets and wraps and weights and we write out these long workout for next six months what someone was going to dio. We can't predict the internal load and be an athlete. You understand how it is to not sleep, how it is to maybe stay out a little too late with some of your friends, but how that affects you in regards and athletic setting to reach the goals that you want to reach. So I want to dive in the topic a little bit about internal versus external load. That's something that you really challenged myself to learn about when I was with you. We talked about that in regards to H R V sleep and all the above said, I want to hear a little bit about your take on internal versus external load. What specifically is at turns >> out someone, he said, is being an athlete. I think that goes, You know, it's It's almost like every year that you are in the field. You separate yourself from what it feels like to go through the workouts and the daily grind. So to say right, it's really easy to write up a bard and have no thought process about how somebody feels on day six of a week where they've been pulling all day school two and a half hour, three hour practice our weights and you're like, Oh, man, we got a great dynamic effort. Lower body session finished office. Um, you know, if our glory body squats like you know it's It's just really easy to forget how how things can accumulate and how you know you're just trying to kind of that times get through it all and you head above water. Whereas we're thinking about optimizing, for they may be thinking about Hey, I just need to know what my head down and get through today. So I think it was a great point. But I think going on to the external love peace, obviously the U. S. In the last, you know, six, seventy nine years has exploded trying to catch up, maybe with Australian, The Europe of the world have been, um, really kind on the forefront of this, uh, objective collection of needs analysis for sport. You know, whether that's an external load of what they're doing, the mechanical demands of the sports. So how far they're running? What are the physical characteristics that you see? See environmental capabilities, as in, you know, beads with velocities, where they simply gotta Iran hominy times that they're going to change direction, really understanding the demands of the sport versus the internal loading piece, which you're going to be Howard, these individuals responding to those demands and I think the key word there being individual, we know that certain athletes are always going to be pushed and filtered into sports that there, uh, naturally, good at right. Like, I think we all tend a favor, things that we've been successful at. And as we kind of go up through our broken physical education system, we haven't done a really good job. I think in our country of kind of diversifying and scaling appropriate levels to make sure people are developing and multiple ways we kind of just like, Oh, you're good at this sport. Keep at it. You suck. You're out on. And I think if we were to kind of cater developmental, developmentally appropriate skill acquisition techniques and I'm stealing all this from a classmate of mine, Peter Bergen City proud, I think a better job of scaling, you know, developmental levels. I think you would see Maur athletes come out of that. That would be successful instead of just they only go on the tall guy put him under the basket. Um, you know, you would be able to develop more skills, but back to the internal load piece on understanding that, like I work with Ben Soccer Max, we're talking about this maybe your ago. I have a guy who logged twenty thousand meters in a playoff game last year, You know, that's over twelve and a half >> miles on run game. And he >> had played a game two days earlier and had been practicing for four months. And it comes to the question of like, How does somebody do that? Do that? Do you train them to do that? Do they just follow the program and all of us and they could do that. Or did there, I guess, internal demands to the sport over time. It took years. It took decades and in my opinion, took that after we to play the sport of high level, you know, for ten plus years to be able to get that cardiac adaptation of peripheral ability to be so efficient that they can run and change and cutting jump a tte that intensity. And so an athlete like that that that internal load, you know, they're going to be very, very effective and mobilizing energy. They're going to be very good of providing blood and oxygen to the to the outside of the body, whereas, you know, you take, not tow it, almost four. But like softball, that's a completely different athlete. And so if you were to ask them to have, ah, Despaigne similar demands, we know that internal load would be different. They're gonna have an inefficiency that, uh, you know what, I've election, Amy. A struggle to match the requirements of work or mechanical load that you're placing upon the athletes. So I think you know, it's really important as you start to look at that internal versus external. The external is critical, I think, on a lot of sports were just now identifying what is necessary to be successful on the field as and what they're doing. So you can start it that, you know, backwards, design and work. Your program to say here is ultimately what they have to be able to do. This is a worst case scenario on the field. This is how we should cater our return to play protocols so that we know we're working towards ultimately the ideal player. And that's sports and >> interesting. Yeah, not to cut you off. I did make some clarity here in regards to internal versus external loads. We talked about external load. We're talking about the amount of work someone actually does. Yes. So the amount of weight being lifted, how fast someone's running, how many pages someone can read, Right? And we end the guards, student, one intern and what side? Go ahead. >> It's really what is happening. What are you doing? What? How much of something? >> Something you're applying to the body. And then the internal load is the physiological changes that take place. And so the most basic concept is Hey, we're going to give you a weight program. We're gonna lift X amount of weight for X amount of days with the external load, intending to change the internal environment to grow muscle. And then the more muscle you grow, the more internal load you can handle. So you're adaptive capacity, that big bucket of how much you can handle a life. You become very efficient at handling that consistent external load and you increase your ability, whether it be efficiently or the magnitude. Insides that bucket to handle. A larger, I guess, external load in regards to having a larger internal capacity. And so what you're talking about is when our buck it's very specific Say we're playing soccer and we changed, too, you know, let's say tennis or in your case, saw Hall. You mentioned the softball player would struggle with soccer, and the soccer player would struggle with tennis because those external loads are so different than the internal capabilities of that individual. Is that correct? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think I think the higher level you go you definitely see that specificity of coordinated skills really kind of become a guest. Very nish. And what you typically say and I actually kind of think it's funny because I've said it. So then guilty as charged is that you'll look at a soccer player, you know, somebody who can play at the highest level and is sprinting doing all these different, you know, athletic exercises and then we'll be like, Man, they're bad athlete. They can't skip or look at that spa product. It's terrible and you know, you kind of take a step back and you're like, was the gold toe squatters, the gold toe score goals and play soccer? Um, and then some, you know, may argue. It will, you know, had the longevity of peace or they're gonna be in a more front injury, all that on and at the same time. And I think about that subconscious confidence when you put some money in a gym and a, you know, a new environment where they may not have done these things. They're very aware they're consciously in confident. They're sitting there going, I >> suck at this >> and they overthink it, right, and then you ask him to, like, go out on the field and kick a ball around, and they're doing these things. They're changing direction, which is basically a squat with shen angles changed. Uh, yeah, you know these things fluently without even thinking about it. So it's like their ability is there. It's just not in the right contact. >> Interesting. Yes, they bring up the concept of selling, being consciously aware, right? So they might be in a nervous kind of state. They're not familiar with the weight room, and that actually bring some level anxiety, possibly that true. And that itself may make the weight room instead of ah, use dresser, which is something very positive. It might be a distress, sir, and so they see that waiting is negative. And so now they're nervous toe workout and they have to work out, which makes the internal load even larger. So make this environment that kind of gets magnified. In regards to that. What other factors influence your internal load? Something I mentioned was that stress and obviously their external stressors, especially at Stanford, work very intelligent students who are having to go through rigorous testing in school. And it's a very competitive environment, not just athletically, but, um, you know, the education side as well through those stressors and past internal load. And if it does, how does that influenced the amount? External load? As a coach, you might provide? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it's always going to be multispectral. It's always going to be. It depends on who's who's the athlete. What's their background? And the supporter? The activity. You're asking to dio, um, the daily life of the twenty two hours that they're not with you. Are they hydrated? Are they eating properly? They fuelling for adequate activity. Are they getting enough sleep? Are they, you know, have a test for their psychosocial factors at play? Like their girlfriend or boyfriend just broke up with him. And I think all those things obviously have an impact Has been Aton and ton of focus placed on this type of, I guess, capturing that whole athlete. Whereas maybe, you know, years ago, you would look at tonnage and now people will look tonnage. And what that stress load is, what that academic load is Because, you know, research is coming out. Now that we know that these types of overloaded stressors and stresses the same stress of you know makes you resilient can break you down. So it's really the improper dozing and inability to cope with that load, and that's dressed, it creates the problems. But, um, you know, you look at athletes who are an exam week, there's research talking about that people hell less efficiently. They have immune issues. So you're seeing people get sick. You're seeing that inability to adapt and cope with the demands that are placed on him, being significantly altered by some other type of factor outside of a weight room or a field. Um, you know, I think the the fact that the collegiate environment is being more aware to that and teams they're trying to push practice in the morning. A little later, they're tryingto manipulate schedules so that its aren't just running straight from class. But they have a little time between do get some type of snack and to some moment to themselves toe. Take a couple of rest before they go out on the flip side, right after practice. Are they running directly into Ah, you know, a test or something? Or are they actually will have a little moments of themselves where they can kind of down, regulate, take everything in and then move on? I think that those types of things, well or not, massive are significant because they happened ten to twenty times every day over the span of weeks in years. And that's really the problems, that chronic buildup of a over activated, sympathetic response that maybe exacerbated by an athletes Taipei, their personalities or type a person. Yeah. Hey, I'm driven. I'm a pi performer. This is what I do, or maybe some of the lifestyle stuff. So maybe that there's somebody who you know is just pumping refined sugars and other body and creating a flux and blood sugar regulation that again mobilizes cortisol, a sympathetic response. And next thing you know, you've just in the span of three hours tagged on six different things, albeit slightly different, that had the same outcome on the system. So that internal response becomes very, very sensitive. Teo, everything you're doing because it's that chronic build up that's really taken its toll on it. >> Interesting. So he bring up the idea of the sympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system being broken down. I guess being partnered with, I should say with the parasympathetic nervous system, right, that makes up your autonomic nervous systems. So for those you're not familiar. Sympathetic nervous systems, your fighter flight. It mobilizes energy. It's looked at to be very important for survival. If we saw a lion during evolutionary times would help us increase our heart rate, Increased auction supply, mobilized energy so we could run away from a lion. But then we had the parasympathetic aspect. That branch would help regulate rest. And I just kind of the repair and rebuild process. Now, with that, you mentioned the hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system. Now, does this get out of whack? Sometimes if you're an athlete, your individual were chronically stressed. And if so, does that affect some of your endocrinology? So how your body responds? And what kind of tips can you have No muse with your athletes or yourself to get yourself back into a parasympathetic state? Yes, >> that's a great point. I think the and not tow to correct you. I think what you're saying is absolutely right. I think the key is, is not constantly counter act sympathetic, but is to bring the body back into a more balanced ability to appropriately turn on sympathetic into appropriately eternal in Paris. Sympathetic and what you typically see, and I said it so I think you're totally right, is sympathetic, does become the primary driver, but it isn't all about just turning on sympathetic. It's it's having the ability to use both when you need it. And I think a lot of times the door or the window to that is to drive parasympathetic activity on so that it can kind of restore itself. Ah, and then the goal. Once you're kind of an ability where you have a little bit more of stability and that is, then tow, have access to both. >> So you talk to me about me. Interrupt chase. But this is something to remind me completely where, if someone is chronically sympathetic, let's say they're in a game situation. This can goes back. That being stressed out, they might have hyperactivity, sympathetic nervous system and correct if I'm wrong, this decentralize is sorry. Desensitize is the frontal cortex and reduces some individuals ability to make decisions, especially when fatigue begins to set in. Because you have multiple areas of stress coming to body fatigue, the actual stress emotional of the situation and in the person's internal Billy to regulate that, that's something you talking to me about? Spoken with me about while Stanford. I found that topic to be extremely interesting and do the fact that it's completely universal. Whether you're an athlete or your individual going in for a job interview, they kind of fall under the same umbrella. Is this the case? >> Yes, excuse me. So I think ultimately it's a fine line, right? So I think the sympathetic nervous system actually has been shown to enhance some cognitive activities, right? So it does increase that acute ability, toe recall some information and at the same time and over driven response of it can almost shut everything down. And that's where you see people kind of like getting up hyperventilating and not being able to perform and really kind of altering some type of, um, thoughtful, logical, rational action. So I think it comes down to two primary things. It's a primary and secondary appraisal, and this is a psychology based concept. But I think it applies basically everything in performance and primary, the athlete, the person. Whoever is going to say what is happening, and this is subconscious and happening in different aspects of the Iranian or not I fell. Missed what? Your body goes, What's? What is this? Right? So I looked at the analogy of you walk into a bar. All right, You scan the bar, You have a very, very fast Ah, action arms. Excuse me? Decision about what is in that bar. Is that a threat? Do you see a bunch of hell's angels with guns and, you know, baseball bats sitting there? Or do you see a bunch of friends? Right, So and then it's that same split. Second, a secondary appraisal happens to the primary. That's secondary being. Do I have the resources to cope with this? And that is really what dictates what type of response and house is going to send. Oh, are the brain will send to the body to stimulate what side of the annulment? Nervous system. Right. So if I walk in, I say what? I don't like this. Tio. Hey, I've been in this scenario before. It didn't go well. That's when that sympathetic sent a kick on because I got to get out of here verses. I walk into that same place. It's a bunch of friends, You know, It's my old buddy from college. You're gonna have a completely different mobilization of your transmitters of hormones. Because of your perception of the stressor is completely different. And you mentioned you stress distress. And I think that that's the case for everything, because, uh, not to go on a rant. But if you if you take an athlete who loves running, that stress of running is completely different than an athlete who doesn't like running right. So their perception of an activity, albeit the same activity, will have a different psycho physiological manifestation of stress or load on the body. And so I think, as we talk about mental toughness with our athlete, even all of that ultimately comes down to have you put them in such situations to prepare them, have confidence in them. And that's what's going to dictate some of these positive body responses that you'll see because they'll walk up to that playing go. Yep. Done this a million times, and that is where you kind of have that mental resilience versus I don't know what's gonna happen. I've never done this before. If I miss, it's going to be the game. Aunt. I think when we talk about all of performance in psychology and physiology. It's so intertwined you cannot separate them, and we like to separate things we like to have absolute. We like to wear a monitor on a wrist or a chest that tells us we're tired or that tells us we've been too stressed. But the reality is, is that the individual differences in perception of stress and my ability, my body's ability to adapt to that stress based on what type of internal environment is kind of walking around twenty four hours a day is going to dictate everything. And that's why it's really tough and in a team environment for us to just blast everybody and say We're gonna stress, you know, we're going to internal load monitoring by H. R. V. Well, that's fantastic and I think there's there's marriage of that. So I'm not saying there isn't what. You better make sure you know a lot about your athletes. You better make sure you have the time to learn about their personalities, how they handle things, What type of family experiences, a fat, what type of things go into them making decisions about what they're experiencing. >> Gotcha. So that I couldn't agree more. Yeah, that's beautifully said one things you mentioned. There was the idea of HRT, but also the idea of perception. So H R v being a reflection on Amit nervous system and compared to your own baseline when your H R V numbers lower means you have less variability that, essentially inferring a higher level of sympathetic drive when you're HIV is higher, infers a more balanced eight or more parasympathetic state, essentially less sympathetic, right? Right. And so we start using H R V, and we talk about that as an internal tool. They also mentioned the idea ofthe having individuals be in situations that are similar to that of sport. Do you think there's a time and place for real time H R V feedback and HIV training? And would you possibly put someone in a situation where they're trying to score that goal? Maybe you fatigued them with, say, a sled push or prowler push and then you have there HIV tank. And they have to perform a difficult technical task in attempt to have them auto regulate that H R V. So they can perform that task successfully, making training and skill development much more specific and begin to messed together. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's biofeedback. Wanna one, right? That's that's ah, thought technology, heart, math. All those companies out there using that with Forman psychologists to see how people a handle the stressors implied on them. But how did they bounce back? So the military has been doing this for years and live monitoring H R V on some of the operators and then watching them perform. You know, they're training, going through selection and training bases where they have Tio ah, handle extremely dynamic and challenging environments where they're under watch, their being scrutinised every step of the way. And so what we've actually seen is that people who on average, you know it's not. There's anomalies of force. People who take the hit right, so you'll see a drop in H R B or increasing sympathetic tone. They will actually bounce back, though, so having a stressor impact your your your body is is normal. But the ability to rebound and kind of come back to those norms within a relatively quick period of time is what is critical for high performance. You know, they talked about having a five minute or a three hundred feet average prior to that activity to get a baseline. What we found in some of the research coming out now you can actually probably cut it down to one two, three minutes. Right? So it becomes much more, I guess. Logistically feasible. Tohave guys sit around for one to three minutes, kind of collect that boarding for baseline and then go about their day. And that's really critical to get that that daily baseline. Because as we talked about, if you're on day six of AH long week, your body is functioning and flowing. Ah, and kind of repair mode. It's trying to keep up with what you've been putting it through. So each day that you wake up, you are gonna be slightly different than what you do where for. So it's not an apples, apples. You gotta look at your ability to flux in that Alice static load and your body's proactive decision making to try and match what it was doing in the prior day's training. Evolution >> Dacha. So H r v itself. I refer to the check engine light because it doesn't necessarily come from one area and come from emotional you, Khun, Stub your toe. You can have a lower H R V. And some of the things I've been reading about lately and talking to you about office, podcast or text message and kindly enough, you respond to my random texts at nine thirty at night with a slew of articles and ten questions, has been a nutritional side right and the idea of low level systemic inflammation or inadequate nutrition. What I mean by that is, I will put in food into her body under the assumption that this is going to give us a positive effect. Really. Sometimes the food that we put into our body are causing a stressor on our system, because either, eh, they're so foreign to us in regards to weigh their process or be too simple sugars. And them and I mean simple in terms of your eating a fruit loop have an effect on our body that can take us down a road that necessarily isn't positive for adaptation. And just like H. R. V. Is affected by your psychological perception, I've been read a little bit about H. R V is a kind of systemic monitor and how it could be influenced by nutrition in regards that nutritional aspect. I know we've talked a little bit about biomarkers and some of the diving deep into internal medicine and understanding that our body is very complex. It's made of of all these subsystems and how one subsystem acts might affect how another subsystem acts. And as we gain these risk factors of an adequate nutrients status, our overall risk profile increases and the idea that we might have an emergent pattern in terms of illness manifests increases. So I want to hear some of your thoughts on some of the internal medicine where that's going in regards to bio markers for athletics, human performance and just general wellness. I know you're not a physician and you're not ordering bloodwork and diagnosing off blood work. But being a sports scientist, I do think it's important to appreciate and understand some of these concepts, and you have a great indepth knowledge in this area. So I love to hear a little more about it. >> Yeah, no, I think that's an area and by no means a mine expert, right? I just read a lot of things and copy what other people say so I have to always say that. No, that's what we always hang her hat on is that if you go through the research, you're basically taking somebody else's thoughts interpreting to your own. So my experiences with this, our personal and what I've seen in a professional setting and all kind of touched on the personal piece because I think you know, as we talked about being an athlete and understanding what people go through, our own experiences can drive a lot of how we make decisions with their athletes or are clients or whoever working with and that basically, for twenty five years of my life I've been on some form of allergy medicine allergies, shot decongestant Z Pac to get rid of a sinus infection, you name it. I had, I had and I had multiple sci affections every year and not one time. I want your nose and throat, Doctor Otto. You know, allergy specialists now, one time to never anyone ever bring up what you're putting in your body. And you know, it took you know, I went toe doctor Dima Val seminar last summer and it took ah, somebody while he's very good, but it took somebody to kind of like, say, Hey, man, like it's not just isolating the symptom and given you an anti histamine or something like that, you got to think that you're in a systemic state of inadequacy. Your body doesn't have the ability to recognize normal nutrients as you eat things. But then also, it doesn't have the ability to recognize, um, some of the I guess the things that are supposed to be normal now become pathological. And it's just complete dysfunctional cycle. And so for me, I literally just He said, Hey, do me a favor. Stop eating dairy. Okay? Yeah, I love cheese, but we'll do that. And I literally and within three to four days, every single allergies symptom. I had one away. I haven't had any issues for seven and a half months. While legal thing, >> I >> haven't had any issues. Haven't got sick once. And it was just one thing come to find out. I have a lactose allergy. And not only does it didn't affect me like g I distress, but it effects chronic states of allergies. So my body was perceiving things as, ah, the enemy and the immune system was essentially creating that inflammatory response to deal with them s So I think that first and foremost, I started just looking at Maybe people are eating things that they may have a low grade flamer. Inflammatory response. Tio, Um, I was taking and sets staking insides like there were Andy since I was sixteen years old. You know, being an athlete, you get off him a practice, your knees hurt, ankle hurts. Whatever happens, you know, you just take him so that you can, um >> you know, keep >> on going toe to practice. The next day, um, I was taking CPAC's >> is >> taking prednisone. All these things basically put my spotty in a state of in a state of shock to a point where it can actually regulate normal. >> So just take that >> into my work and special environment. And we have athletes who were under that significant academic stress, social stress and the physical stress. Well, we also see is they're just like me. And then they were taken and said they were taken. You know, prednisone. They're taking quarter to steroids for asthma, exercise induced asthma. They were taking all these things that basically is driving the body into a state of alarm where it doesn't have a normalcy to it. So we're not seeing the immune system actually do its job. We're seeing chronic sympathetic response basically to everything that's being put into the body. So with that low grade inflammation that's happening over weeks, months, years, you get that inability to handle external loads, then that's where than internal load becomes so critical. But what once is, maybe a resilient person now they're getting the sniffles every three weeks now they're walking around with some type of tell, ephemeral and an itis. Ah, no. I think that we so easily look at Oh, they landed on it funny and practice. Oh, they took a bump or a bruise for somebody. But maybe that is exacerbated. Or maybe that's highly sensitive due to the fact that the body isn't able to function under normal circumstances. >> No, that's there's a lot of topics in that one dive into you. Um, I guess what is immediate topics that's most applicable for individuals, the idea of in said's and how? I mean, when I was in ah, middle school, I must have taken maybe six, four, five before a game when I was playing, and it felt nothing. Elements. I can only imagine what that's doing to my internal, You know, my, my style making my gastric system and how much to chewed up. Yeah, that's a lot of information that's come out regarding tendon healing and the adaptations of it, um, you've taught me well, I think the first one to bring this to my attention on some of the detriments of and said itself and some of the alternative we could possibly have, such as your human and things that don't necessarily tear our system up. Um, you give any thoughts on that and how that might play a role than Okay. We have this functional medicine world. Now, how do we apply that into, you know, physical therapy. And if we're trying to have ten and adaptations in regards to Isometrics, you might be doing them to increase longevity and reduced to an apathy or for film someone up with insides. Are we really getting the bang for the buck we want to get or we just causing more harm than good? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, you said it right there and that. Are you taking that risk reward on using that, like, a short term? Ah, you know that hill, Teo, is it overriding what you truly want in the long term? Okay, so we talked about adaptation you mentioned Well, we've seen that and sides actually have. Ah, a destruction of satellite cells. So when you're normally building muscle and you're having some of these repair sells, Memento help stimulate regeneration and says, Well, actually blunt that response to Seo X one and two being the primary enzymes associated with that, we'll actually get shut down. Ah, And when they dio, you're literally stopping your body from adapting. Growing. So I talked to my soccer team all the time about I'm like, does it. You guys, You want you're wearing the sleepless shirts. You want to fill those things out? Let's not wait from what already isn't there, you know? And I think you know when we start looking at As you mentioned it, healing in the early stage returned to play. And now I'm never going to say, Hey, you know, you shouldn't do that. That's always up to the doctors and the medical professionals. But I think that there is lack of thought for our long term. Ah, mala dictations. So you mentioned, do we alter college and proliferation for the expense of just taking down some swelling and irritation? Maybe that paper's the response can be better handled by Tylenol or whatever else somebody thinks because I think it's critical. Especially, you know, you see the two different primary types intelligent Type one and Type three. They've seen that there is a blunted response and how that tendon regenerates. And so I think, you know, little things like that. Those conversations you have with your athletic trainer or your doctor and be like, Hey, is this absolutely necessary? I'm not questioning your rationale. But does this athlete need that? Or is there something else we can do? Is going to make sure that when I am doing the Afar or whatever before ISOs to maximize ah tended thickness or tendon restructuring or whatever I'm doing. Are we going to the baby? Out with the bath water? Are we gonna hurt something, You know, for the expense of you know what's easy and what we know from a Western medical model. >> Yeah, that's it. Very interesting moment. Thanks. By the way, I wanna clarify For those not familiar with terminology and says or non sorry, chase, I letyou go ahead there up the real quick and sense of things like ibuprofen and Advil around non steroidal anti inflammatory. Um, what's the d stand for? I'm forgetting right now. Feels stupid. Now draw. Go. Okay. There you go. Yeah, perfect things like ibuprofen and no Advil. I should take like six angel's before I play basketball. Because when it came out, I knew no better. It made me feel better and take more than barrier against coming out that we're really tearing up our system. What's interesting is we look at some of the inflammation studies. You look at older adults. It brings up the idea that as we age, we get in such an inflammatory state. We're taking things like insects, which are known to possibly reduce adaptation shins. And individuals were healthy. It actually increases muscle growth and some of the older adults because their level of inflammation, it's so high systemically that taking something as like an insider Advil, which we think is bad, actually increases adaptation. And they just show I just read a paper. Probably thirty men, too. For this that showed Curcumin has a potential effects to do the same, which might be a healthier alternative to end, says regards to reducing inflammation.

>> Live from New York City it's theCube. Covering Lenovo Transform 2.0. Brought to you by Lenovo. >> Welcome back to theCube's live coverage of Lenovo Transform, I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Madhu Matta; He is the VP and GM High Performance Computing and Artificial Intelligence at Lenovo and Dr. Daniel Gruner the CTO of SciNet at University of Toronto. Thanks so much for coming on the show gentlemen. >> Thank you for having us. >> Our pleasure. >> So, before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about the Lenovo mission in this area to use the power of supercomputing to help solve some of society's most pressing challenges; and that is climate change, and curing cancer. Can you talk a little bit, tell our viewers a little bit about what you do and how you see your mission. >> Yeah so, our tagline is basically, Solving humanity's greatest challenges. We're also now the number one supercomputer provider in the world as measured by the rankings of the top 500 and that comes with a lot of responsibility. One, we take that responsibility very seriously, but more importantly, we work with some of the largest research institutions, universities all over the world as they do research, and it's amazing research. Whether it's particle physics, like you saw this morning, whether it's cancer research, whether it's climate modeling. I mean, we are sitting here in New York City and our headquarters is in Raleigh, right in the path of Hurricane Florence, so the ability to predict the next anomaly, the ability to predict the next hurricane is absolutely critical to get early warning signs and a lot of survival depends on that. So we work with these institutions jointly to develop custom solutions to ensure that all this research one it's powered and second to works seamlessly, and all their researchers have access to this infrastructure twenty-four seven. >> So Danny, tell us a little bit about SciNet, too. Tell us what you do, and then I want to hear how you work together. >> And, no relation with Skynet, I've been assured? Right? >> No. Not at all. It is also no relationship with another network that's called the same, but, it doesn't matter. SciNet is an organization that's basically the University of Toronto and the associated research hospitals, and we happen to run Canada's largest supercomputer. We're one of a number of computer sites around Canada that are tasked with providing resources and support, support is the most important, to academia in Canada. So, all academics, from all the different universities, in the country, they come and use our systems. From the University of Toronto, they can also go and use the other systems, it doesn't matter. Our mission is, as I said, we provide a system or a number of systems, we run them, but we really are about helping the researchers do their research. We're all scientists. All the guys that work with me, we're all scientists initially. We turned to computers because that was the way we do the research. You can not do astrophysics other than computationally, observationally and computationally, but nothing else. Climate science is the same story, you have so much data and so much modeling to do that you need a very large computer and, of course, very good algorithms and very careful physics modeling for an extremely complex system, but ultimately it needs a lot of horsepower to be able to even do a single simulation. So, what I was showing with Madhu at that booth earlier was results of a simulation that was done just prior us going into production with our Lenovo system where people were doing ocean circulation calculations. The ocean is obviously part of the big Earth system, which is part of the climate system as well. But, they took a small patch of the ocean, a few kilometers in size in each direction, but did it at very, very high resolution, even vertically going down to the bottom of the ocean so that the topography of the ocean floor can be taken into account. That allows you to see at a much smaller scale the onset of tides, the onset of micro-tides that allow water to mix, the cold water from the bottom and the hot water from the top; The mixing of nutrients, how life goes on, the whole cycle. It's super important. Now that, of course, gets coupled with the atmosphere and with the ice and with the radiation from the sun and all that stuff. That calculation was run by a group from, the main guy was from JPL in California, and he was running on 48,000 cores. Single runs at 48,000 cores for about two- to three-weeks and produced a petabyte of data, which is still being analyzed. That's the kind of resolution that's been enabled... >> Scale. >> It gives it a sense of just exactly... >> That's the scale. >> By a system the size of the one we have. It was not possible to do that in Canada before this system. >> I tell you both, when I lived on the vendor side and as an analyst, talking to labs and universities, you love geeking out. Because first of all, you always have a need for newer, faster things because the example you just gave is like, "Oh wait." "If I can get the next generation chipset." "If the networking can be improved." You know you can take that petabyte of data and process it so much faster. >> If I could only get more money to buy a bigger one. >> We've talked to the people at CERN and JPL and things like that. - Yeah. >> And it's like this is where most companies are it's like, yeah it's a little bit better, and it might make things a little better and make things nice, but no, this is critical to move along the research. So talk a little bit more about the infrastructure and what you look for and how that connects to the research and how you help close that gap over time. >> Before you go, I just want to also highlight a point that Danny made on solving humanity's greatest challenges which is our motto. He talked about the data analysis that he just did where they are looking at the surface of the ocean, as well as, going down, what is it, 264 nautical layers underneath the ocean? To analyze that much data, to start looking at marine life and protecting marine life. As you start to understand that level of nautical depth, they can start to figure out the nutrients value and other contents that are in that water to be able to start protecting the marine life. There again, another of humanity's greatest challenge right there that he's giving you... >> Nothing happens in isolation; It's all interconnected. >> Yeah. >> When you finally got a grant, you're able to buy a computer, how do you buy the computer that's going to give you the most bang for your buck? The best computer to do the science that we're all tasked with doing? It's tough, right? We don't fancy ourselves as computer architects; we engage the computer companies who really know about architecture to help us do it. The way we did our procurement was, 'Ok vendors, we have a set pot of money, we're willing to spend every last penny of this money, you give us the biggest and the baddest for our money." Now, it has to have a certain set of criteria. You have to be able to solve a number of benchmarks, some sample calculations that we provided. The ones that give you the best performance that's a bonus. It also has to be able to do it with the least amount of power, so we don't have to heat up the world and pay through the nose with power. Those are objective criteria that anybody can understand. But then, there's also the other criteria, so, how well will it run? How is it architected? How balanced is it? Did we get the iOS sub-system for all the storage that was the one that actually meets the criteria? What other extras do we have that will help us make the system run in a much smoother way and for a wide variety of disciplines because we run the biologists together with the physicists and the engineers and the humanitarians, the humanities people. Everybody uses the system. To make a long story short, the proposal that we got from Lenovo won the bid both in terms of what we got for in terms of hardware and also the way it was put together, which was quite innovative. >> Yeah. >> I want to hear about, you said give us the biggest, the baddest, we're willing to empty our coffers for this, so then where do you go from there? How closely do you work with SciNet, how does the relationship evolve and do you work together to innovate and kind of keep going? >> Yeah. I see it as not a segment or a division. I see High Performance Computing as a practice, and with any practice, it's many pieces that come together; you have a conductor, you have the orchestra, but the end of the day the delivery of that many systems is the concert. That's the way to look at it. To deliver this, our practice starts with multiple teams; one's a benchmarking team that understands the application that Dr. Gruner and SciNet will be running because they need to tune to the application the performance of the cluster. The second team is a set of solution architects that are deep engineers and understand our portfolio. Those two work together to say against this application, "Let's build," like he said, "the biggest, baddest, best-performing solution for that particular application." So, those two teams work together. Then we have the third team that kicks in once we win the business, which is coming on site to deploy, manage, and install. When Dr. Gruner talks about the infrastructure, it's a combination of hardware and software that all comes together and the software is open-source based that we built ourselves because we just felt there weren't the right tools in the industry to manage this level of infrastructure at that scale. All this comes together to essentially rack and roll onto their site. >> Let me just add to that. It's not like we went for it in a vacuum. We had already talked to the vendors, we always do. You always go, and they come to you and 'when's your next money coming,' and it's a dog and pony show. They tell you what they have. With Lenovo, at least the team, as we know it now, used to be the IBM team, iXsystems team, who built our previous system. A lot of these guys were already known to us, and we've always interacted very well with them. They were already aware of our thinking, where we were going, and that we're also open to suggestions for things that are non-conventional. Now, this can backfire, some data centers are very square they will only prescribe what they want. We're not prescriptive at all, we said, "Give us ideas about what can make this work better." These are the intangibles in a procurement process. You also have to believe in the team. If you don't know the team or if you don't know their track record then that's a no-no, right? Or, it takes points away. >> We brought innovations like DragonFly, which Dr. Dan will talk about that, as well as, we brought in for the first time, Excelero, which is a software-defined storage vendor and it was a smart part of the bid. We were able to flex muscles and be more creative versus just the standard. >> My understanding, you've been using water cooling for about a decade now, maybe? - Yes. >> Maybe you could give us a little bit about your experiences, how it's matured over time, and then Madhu will talk and bring us up to speed on project Neptune. >> Okay. Our first procurement about 10 years ago, again, that was the model we came up with. After years of wracking our brains, we could not decide how to build a data center and what computers to buy, it was like a chicken and egg process. We ended up saying, 'Okay, this is what we're going to do. Here's the money, here's is our total cost of operation that we can support." That included the power bill, the water, the maintenance, the whole works. So much can be used for infrastructure, and the rest is for the operational part. We said to the vendors, "You guys do the work. We want, again, the biggest and the baddest that we can operate within this budget." So, obviously, it has to be energy efficient, among other things. We couldn't design a data center and then put in the systems that we didn't know existed or vice-versa. That's how it started. The initial design was built by IBM, and they designed the data center for us to use water cooling for everything. They put rear door heat exchanges on the racks as a means of avoiding the use of blowing air and trying to contain the air which is less efficient, the air, and is also much more difficult. You can flow water very efficiently. You open the door of one of these racks. >> It's amazing. >> And it's hot air coming out, but you take the heat, right there in-situ, you remove it through a radiator. It's just like your car radiator. >> Car radiator. >> It works very well. Now, it would be nice if we could do even better by doing the hot water cooling and all that, but we're not in a university environment, we're in a strip mall out in the boonies, so we couldn't reuse the heat. Places like LRZ they're reusing the heat produced by the computers to heat their buildings. >> Wow. >> Or, if we're by a hospital, that always needs hot water, then we could have done it. But, it's really interesting how the option of that design that we ended up with the most efficient data center, certainly in Canada, and one of the most efficient in North America 10 years ago. Our PUE was 1.16, that was the design point, and this is not with direct water cooling through the chip. >> Right. Right. >> All right, bring us up to speed. Project Neptune, in general? >> Yes, so Neptune, as the name suggests, is the name of the God of the Sea and we chose that to brand our entire suite of liquid cooling products. Liquid cooling products is end to end in the sense that it's not just hardware, but, it's also software. The other key part of Neptune is a lot of these, in fact, most of these, products were built, not in a vacuum, but designed and built in conjunction with key partners like Barcelona Supercomputer, LRZ in Germany, in Munich. These were real-life customers working with us jointly to design these products. Neptune essentially allows you, very simplistically put, it's an entire suite of hardware and software that allows you to run very high-performance processes at a level of power and cooling utilization that's like using a much lower processor, it dissipates that much heat. The other key part is, you know, the normal way of cooling anything is run chilled water, we don't use chilled water. You save the money of chillers. We use ambient temperature, up to 50 degrees, 90% efficiency, 50 degree goes in, 60 degree comes out. It's really amazing, the entire suite. >> It's 50 Celsius, not Fahrenheit. >> It's Celsius, correct. >> Oh. >> Dr. Bruner talked about SciNet with the rado-heat exchanger. You actually got to stand in front of it to feel the magic of this, right? As geeky as that is. You open the door and it's this hot 60-, 65-degree C air. You close the door it's this cool 20-degree air that's coming out. So, the costs of running a data center drop dramatically with either the rado-heat exchanger, our direct to node product, which we just got released the SE650, or we have something call the thermal-transfer module, which replaces a normal heat sink. Where for an air cool we bring water cool goodness to an air cool product. >> Danny, I wonder if you can give us the final word, just the climate science in general, how's the community doing? Any technological things that are holding us back right now or anything that excites you about the research right now? >> Technology holds you back by the virtual size of the calculations that you need to do, but, it's also physics that hold you back. >> Yes. Because doing the actual modeling is very difficult and you have to be able to believe that the physics models actually work. This is one of the interesting things that Dick Peltier, who happens to be our scientific director and he's also one of the top climate scientists in the world, he's proven through some of his calculations that the models are actually pretty good. The models were designed for current conditions, with current data, so that they would reproduce the evolution of the climate that we can measure today. Now, what about climate that started happening 10,000 years ago, right? The climate was going on; it's been going on forever and ever. There's been glaciations; there's been all these events. It turns out that it has been recorded in history that there are some oscillations in temperature and other quantities that happen about every 1,000 years and nobody had been able to prove why they would happen. It turns out that the same models that we use for climate calculations today, if you take them back and do what's called paleoclimate, you start with approximating the conditions that happened 10,000 years ago, and then you move it forward, these things reproduce, those oscillations, exactly. It's very encouraging that the climate models actually make sense. We're not talking in a vacuum. We're not predicting the end of the world, just because. These calculations are right. They're correct. They're predicting the temperature of the earth is climbing and it's true, we're seeing it, but it will continue unless we do something. Right? It's extremely interesting. Now he's he's beginning to apply those results of the paleoclimate to studies with anthropologists and archeologists. We're trying to understand the events that happened in the Levant in the Middle East thousands of years ago and correlate them with climate events. Now, is that cool or what? >> That's very cool. >> So, I think humanity's greatest challenge is again to... >> I know! >> He just added global warming to it. >> You have a fun job. You have a fun job. >> It's all the interdisciplinarity that now has been made possible. Before we couldn't do this. Ten years ago we couldn't run those calculations, now we can. So it's really cool. - Amazing. Great. Well, Madhu, Danny, thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thank you for having us. >> It was really fun talking to you. >> Thanks. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more from the Lenovo Transform just after this. (tech music)

>> Hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Wikibon Action Item. (electronic music) One of the most pressing strategic issues that businesses face is how to get more value out of their data, In our opinion that's the essence of a digital business transformation, is the using of data as an asset to improve your operations and take better advantage of market opportunities. The problem of data though, it's shareable, it's copyable, it's reusable. It's easy to create derivative value out of it. One of the biggest misnomers in the digital business world is the notion that data is the new fuel or the new oil. It's not, You can only use oil once. You can apply it to a purpose and not multiple purposes. Data you can apply to a lot of purposes, which is why you are able to get such interesting and increasing returns to that asset if you use it appropriately. Now, this becomes especially important for technology companies that are attempting to provide digital business technologies or services or other capabilities to their customers. In the consumer world, it started to reach a head. Questions about Facebook's reuse of a person's data through an ad based business model is now starting to lead people to question the degree to which the information asymmetry about what I'm giving and how they're using it is really worth the value that I get out of Facebook, is something that consumers and certainly governments are starting to talk about. it's also one of the bases for GDPR, which is going to start enforcing significant fines in the next month or so. In the B2B world that question is going to become especially acute. Why? Because as we try to add intelligence to the services and the products that we are utilizing within digital business, some of that requires a degree of, or some sort of relationship where some amount of data is passed to improve the models and machine learning and AI that are associated with that intelligence. Now, some companies have come out and said flat out they're not going to reuse a customer's data. IBM being a good example of that. When Ginni Rometty at IBM Think said, we're not going to reuse our customer's data. The question for the panel here is, is that going to be a part of a differentiating value proposition in the marketplace? Are we going to see circumstances in which companies keep products and services low by reusing a client's data and others sustaining their experience and sustaining a trust model say they won't. How is that going to play out in front of customers? So joining me today here in the studio, David Floyer. >> Hi there. >> And on the remote lines we have Neil Raden, Jim Kobielus, George Gilbert, and Ralph Finos. Hey, guys. >> All: Hey. >> All right so... Neil, let me start with you. You've been in the BI world as a user, as a consultant, for many, many number of years. Help us understand the relationship between data, assets, ownership, and strategy. >> Oh, God. Well, I don't know that I've been in the BI world. Anyway, as a consultant when we would do a project for a company, there were very clear lines of what belong to us and what belong to the client. They were paying us generously. They would allow us to come in to their company and do things that they needed and in return we treated them with respect. We wouldn't take their data. We wouldn't take their data models that we built, for example, and sell them to another company. That's just, as far as I'm concerned, that's just theft. So if I'm housing another company's data because I'm a cloud provider or some sort of application provider and I say well, you know, I can use this data too. To me the analogy is, I'm a warehousing company and independently I go into the warehouse and I say, you know, these guys aren't moving their inventory fast enough, I think I'll sell some of it. It just isn't right. >> I think it's a great point. Jim Kobielus. As we think about the role that data, machine learning play, training models, delivering new classes of services, we don't have a clean answer right now. So what's your thought on how this is likely to play out? >> I agree totally with Neil, first of all. If it's somebody else's data, you don't own it, therefore you can't sell and you can't monetize it, clearly. But where you have derivative assets, like machine learning models that are derivative from data, it's the same phenomena, it's the same issue at a higher level. You can build and train, or should, your machine learning models only from data that you have legal access to. You own or you have license and so forth. So as you're building these derivative assets, first and foremost, make sure as you're populating your data lake, to build and to do the training, that you have clear ownership over the data. So with GDPR and so forth, we have to be doubly triply vigilant to make sure that we're not using data that we don't have authorized ownership or access to. That is critically important. And so, I get kind of queasy when I hear some people say we use blockchain to make... the sharing of training data more distributed and federated or whatever. It's like wait a second. That doesn't solve the issues of ownership. That makes it even more problematic. If you get this massive blockchain of data coming from hither and yon, who owns what? How do you know? Do you dare build any models whatsoever from any of that data? That's a huge gray area that nobody's really addressed yet. >> Yeah well, it might mean that the blockchain has been poorly designed. I think that we talked in one of the previous Action Items about the role that blockchain design's going to play. But moving aside from the blockchain, so it seems as though we generally agree that data is owned by somebody typically and that the ownership of it, as Neil said, means that you can't intercept it at some point in time just because it is easily copied and then generate rents on it yourself. David Floyer, what does that mean from a ongoing systems design and development standpoint? How are we going to assure, as Jim said, not only that we know what data is ours but make sure that we have the right protection strategies, in a sense, in place to make sure that the data as it moves, we have some influence and control over it. >> Well, my starting point is that AI and AI infused products are fueled by data. You need that data, and Jim and Neil have already talked about that. In my opinion, the most effective way of improving a company's products, whatever the products are, from manufacturing, agriculture, financial services, is to use AI infused capabilities. That is likely to give you the best return on your money and businesses need to focus on their own products. That's the first place you are trying to protect from anybody coming in. Businesses own that data. They own the data about your products, in use by your customers, use that data to improve your products with AI infused function and use it before your competition eats your lunch. >> But let's build on that. So we're not saying that, for example, if you're a storage system supplier, since that's a relatively easy one. You've got very, very fast SSDs. Very, very fast NVMe over Fabric. Great technology. You can collect data about how that system is working but that doesn't give you rights to then also collect data about how the customer's using the system. >> There is a line which you need to make sure that you are covering. For example, Call Home on a product, any product, whose data is that? You need to make sure that you can use that data. You have some sort of agreement with the customer and that's a win-win because you're using that data to improve the product, prove things about it. But that's very, very clear that you should have a contractual relationship, as Jim and Neil were pointing out. You need the right to use that data. It can't come beyond the hand. But you must get it because if you don't get it, you won't be able to improve your products. >> Now, we're talking here about technology products which have often very concrete and obvious ownership and people who are specifically responsible for administering them. But when we start getting into the IoT domain or in other places where the device is infused with intelligence and it might be collecting data that's not directly associated with its purpose, just by virtue of the nature of sensors that are out there and the whole concept of digital twin introduces some tension in all this. George Gilbert. Take us through what's been happening with the overall suppliers of technology that are related to digital twin building, designing, etc. How are they securing or making promises committing to their customers that they will not cross this data boundary as they improve the quality of their twins? >> Well, as you quoted Ginni Rometty starting out, she's saying IBM, unlike its competitors, will not take advantage and leverage and monetize your data. But it's a little more subtle than that and digital twins are just sort of another manifestation of industry-specific sort of solution development that we've done for decades. The differences, as Jim and David have pointed out, that with machine learning, it's not so much code that's at the heart of these digital twins, it's the machine learning models and the data is what informs those models. Now... So you don't want all your secret sauce to go from Mercedes Benz to BMW but at the same time the economics of industry solutions means that you do want some of the repeatability that we've always gotten from industry solutions. You might have parts that are just company specific. And so in IBM's case, if you really parse what they're saying, they take what they learn in terms of the models from the data when they're working with BMW, and some of that is going to go into the industry specific models that they're going to use when they're working with Mercedes-Benz. If you really, really sort of peel the onion back and ask them, it's not the models, it's not the features of the models, but it's the coefficients that weight the features or variables in the models that they will keep segregated by customer. So in other words, you get some of the benefits, the economic benefits of reuse across customers with similar expertise but you don't actually get all of the secret sauce. >> Now, Ralph Finos-- >> And I agree with George here. I think that's an interesting topic. That's one of the important points. It's not kosher to monetize data that you don't own but conceivably if you can abstract from that data at some higher level, like George's describing, in terms of weights and coefficients and so forth, in a neural network that's derivative from the model. At some point in the abstraction, you should be able to monetize. I mean, it's like a paraphrase of some copyrighted material. A paraphrase, I'm not a lawyer, but you can, you can sell a paraphrase because it's your own original work that's based obviously on your reading of Moby Dick or whatever it is you're paraphrasing. >> Yeah, I think-- >> Jim I-- >> Peter: Go ahead, Neil. >> I agree with that but there's a line. There was a guy who worked at Capital One, this was about ten years ago, and he was their chief statistician or whatever. This was before we had words like machine learning and data science, it was called statistics and predictive analytics. He left the company and formed his own company and rewrote and recoded all of the algorithms he had for about 20 different predictive models. Formed a company and then licensed that stuff to Sybase and Teradata and whatnot. Now, the question I have is, did that cross the line or didn't it? These were algorithms actually developed inside Capital One. Did he have the right to use those, even if he wrote new computer code to make them run in databases? So it's more than just data, I think. It's a, well, it's a marketplace and I think that if you own something someone should not be able to take it and make money on it. But that doesn't mean you can't make an agreement with them to do that, and I think we're going to see a lot of that. IMSN gets data on prescription drugs and IRI and Nielsen gets scanner data and they pay for it and then they add value to it and they resell it. So I think that's really the issue is the use has to be understood by all the parties and the compensation has to be appropriate to the use. >> All right, so Ralph Finos. As a guy who looks at market models and handles a lot of the fundamentals for how we do our forecasting, look at this from the standpoint of how people are going to make money because clearly what we're talking about sounds like is the idea that any derivative use is embedded in algorithms. Seeing how those contracts get set up and I got a comment on that in a second, but the promise, a number of years ago, is that people are going to start selling data willy-nilly as a basis for their economic, a way of capturing value out of their economic activities or their business activities, hasn't matured yet generally. Do we see like this brand new data economy, where everybody's selling data to each other, being the way that this all plays out? >> Yeah, I'm having a hard time imagining this as a marketplace. I think we pointed at the manufacturing industries, technology industries, where some of this makes some sense. But I think from a practitioner perspective, you're looking for variables that are meaningful that are in a form you can actually use to make prediction. That you understand what the the history and the validity of that of that data is. And in a lot of cases there's a lot of garbage out there that you can't use. And the notion of paying for something that ultimately you look at and say, oh crap, it's not, this isn't really helping me, is going to be... maybe not an insurmountable barrier but it's going to create some obstacles in the market for adoption of this kind of thought process. We have to think about the utility of the data that feeds your models. >> Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot, like there's going to be a lot of legal questions raised and I recommend that people go look at a recent SiliconANGLE article written by Mike Wheatley and edited by our Editor In Chief Robert Hof about Microsoft letting technology partners own right to joint innovations. This is a quite a difference. This is quite a change for Microsoft who used to send you, if you sent an email with an idea to them, you'd often get an email back saying oh, just to let you know any correspondence we have here is the property of Microsoft. So there clearly is tension in the model about how we're going to utilize data and enable derivative use and how we're going to share, how we're going to appropriate value and share in the returns of that. I think this is going to be an absolutely central feature of business models, certainly in the digital business world for quite some time. The last thing I'll note and then I'll get to the Action Items, the last thing I'll mention here is that one of the biggest challenges in whenever we start talking about how we set up businesses and institutionalize the work that's done, is to look at the nature of the assets and the scope of the assets and in circumstances where the asset is used by two parties and it's generating a high degree of value, as measured by the transactions against those assets, there's always going to be a tendency for one party to try to take ownership of it. One party that's able to generate greater returns than the other, almost always makes move to try to take more control out of that asset and that's the basis of governance. And so everybody talks about data governance as though it's like something that you worry about with your backup and restore. Well, that's important but this notion of data governance increasingly is going to become a feature of strategy and boardroom conversations about what it really means to create data assets, sustain those data assets, get value out of them, and how we determine whether or not the right balance is being struck between the value that we're getting out of our data and third parties are getting out of our data, including customers. So with that, let's do a quick Action Item. David Floyer, I'm looking at you. Why don't we start here. David Floyer, Action Item. >> So my Action Item is for businesses, you should focus. Focus on data about your products in use by your customers, to improve, help improve the quality of your products and fuse AI into those products as one of the most efficient ways of adding value to it. And do that before your competition has a chance to come in and get data that will stop you from doing that. >> George Gilbert, Action Item. >> I guess mine would be that... in most cases you you want to embrace some amount of reuse because of the economics involved from your joint development with a solution provider. But if others are going to get some benefit from sort of reusing some of the intellectual property that informs models that you build, make sure you negotiate with your vendor that any upgrades to those models, whether they're digital twins or in other forms, that there's a canonical version that can come back and be an upgraded path for you as well. >> Jim Kobielus, Action Item. >> My Action Item is for businesses to regard your data as a product that you monetize yourself. Or if you are unable to monetize it yourself, if there is a partner, like a supplier or a customer who can monetize that data, then negotiate the terms of that monetization in your your relationship and be vigilant on that so you get a piece of that stream. Even if the bulk of the work is done by your partner. >> Neil Raden, Action Item. >> It's all based on transparency. Your data is your data. No one else can take it without your consent. That doesn't mean that you can't get involved in relationships where there's an agreement to do that. But the problem is most agreements, especially when you look at a business consumer, are so onerous that nobody reads them and nobody understands them. So the person providing the data has to have an unequivocal right to sell it to you and the person buying it has to really understand what the limits are that they can do with it. >> Ralph Finos, Action Item. You're muted Ralph. But it was brilliant, whatever it was. >> Well it was and I really can't say much more than that. (Peter laughs) But I think from a practitioner perspective and I understand that from a manufacturing perspective how the value could be there. But as a practitioner if you're fishing for data out there that someone has that might look like something you can use, chances are it's not. And you need to be real careful about spending money to get data that you're not really clear is going to help you. >> Great. All right, thanks very much team. So here's our Action Item conclusion for today. The whole concept of digital business is predicated in the idea of using data assets in a differential way to better serve your markets and improve your operations. It's your data. Increasingly, that is going to be the base for differentiation. And any weak undertaking to allow that data to get out has the potential that someone else can, through their data science and their capabilities, re-engineer much of what you regard as your differentiation. We've had conversations with leading data scientists who say that if someone were to sell customer data into a open marketplace, that it would take about four days for a great data scientist to re-engineer almost everything about your customer base. So as a consequence, we have to tread lightly here as we think about what it means to release data into the wild. Ultimately, the challenge there for any business will be: how do I establish the appropriate governance and protections, not just looking at the technology but rather looking at the overall notion of the data assets. If you don't understand how to monetize your data and nonetheless enter into a partnership with somebody else, by definition that partner is going to generate greater value out of your data than you are. There's significant information asymmetries here. So it's something that, every company must undertake an understanding of how to generate value out of their data. We don't think that there's going to be a general-purpose marketplace for sharing data in a lot of ways. This is going to be a heavily contracted arrangement but it doesn't mean that we should not take great steps or important steps right now to start doing a better job of instrumenting our products and services so that we can start collecting data about our products and services because the path forward is going to demonstrate that we're going to be able to improve, dramatically improve the quality of the goods and services we sell by reducing the assets specificities for our customers by making them more intelligent and more programmable. Finally, is this going to be a feature of a differentiated business relationship through trust? We're open to that. Personally, I'll speak for myself, I think it will. I think that there is going to be an important element, ultimately, of being able to demonstrate to a customer base, to a marketplace, that you take privacy, data ownership, and intellectual property control of data assets seriously and that you are very, very specific, very transparent, in how you're going to use those in derivative business transactions. All right. So once again, David Floyer, thank you very much here in the studio. On the phone: Neil Raden, Ralph Finos, Jim Kobielus, and George Gilbert. This has been another Wikibon Action Item. (electronic music)

>> Commentator: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube. Covering VM World 2017. Brought to you by VMWare and its ecosystem partner. >> Welcome back to The Cube, we are live covering VMWorld 2017, day two of coverage. I'm Lisa Martin with my co host Stu Miniman, we've had a great morning, main stage, Michael Dell, Patt Gelsinger, Google, et cetera. We're excited to be joined by Doctor Sadir, Sadir is kind of awesome, the CTO of Dell EMC, Stewart, welcome to The Cube! >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> We're excited to have you here, so you were an EMC guy, we talked about that. When people think of Dell, they think of, well maybe used to, PCs, when they think of EMC they think of storage arrays, talk to us about, you know, one year post combination almost, how has your customers' perception changed, what have you heard in the last year? >> Sure yeah, it's been a pretty dramatic change, I would say in the sense of about a year ago when the deal was, or actually two years ago when the deal was first announced that it would be happening there was a lot of skepticism in the customer base obviously around A, what does this mean, how's it going to come together? I think a year into it people started to see some initial signs of better together. And now a year later we're seeing dramatic, dramatic positive energy and feedback from customer base on how, when they're actually seeing the products and solutions coming together in a combined solution I think that's, I mean we used to joke in the old days where our products, you know, EMC's got our portfolio, and our products would only come together on the PO, that was the common joke inside. And I think that perception is changing quite a lot now. >> So bring us into the storage group, because it was one that you know, if you look there were a lot of places where there were no overlaps. Storage, there was a long partnership between Dell and EMC then Dell had acquired a couple of companies, EMC, as you said already had a very large portfolio so bring us inside a little bit, especially kind of with your, you know, your CTO, your technologist. What are those lenses you look through and where are we into, you know, things coming together soon? >> Sure, I think it's a great question, I know and thank you because one of the things that people miss is that the portfolio strategy is a conscious strategy, right? It is really hard to cover the entire spectrum of work loads, use cases with a single widget, if you will. And a lot of our competitors will try to convince customers of that and they're finding that out themselves that it's really hard to cover that gamut so I think fundamentally, first and foremost the portfolio strategy is very important now that said, it is acknowledged and I'll admit that it is perhaps more in the portfolio right now than perhaps is needed. And so that in fact is one of our first, one of our big priorities for this year is to simplify the portfolio because it's confusing for our customers and so we're definitely working towards that. You'll see that roll out starting next year. And then over the next few years. >> So on that front, and sort of maybe waiting things out to simplify, from an innovation perspective Michael Dell also talked on main stage this morning about the importance of customer innervation but I'd love to understand how if you can take us kind of more through that, how is Dell EMC innovating internally so that you can be leaders in innovation-- >> Yeah, that's a great question, it's a great question because you know when you have a multi billion dollar business everybody assumes it's really really hard to innovate and it is, there's no question because you've got a big business to sustain. Now but the, I completely agree with Michael, what he said on stage and what he said to us privately which is in fact Dick Egan used to say the same thing. Founder of EMC he was, if there's one thing that you should be comfortable with, it's change and because this industry is changing like crazy, and I've been in the industry now for what, coming up on 20 years. Seen a lot, you know from FDDI to wherever you're at today. And I'm still constantly amazed by how much change is going on even now. So we do believe in change, we believe in actually innovating constantly, and Jeff Budrow, one of my manager he's a big believer in change as well, we're working on a lump number of innovations internally, organic innovations, big innovations. I can't tell you much about that today but we'll hopefully as we get closer to the next year we'll be able to talk more about it. That said, we're innovating on our existing products as well, we've refreshed our entire portfolio at Dell EMC World earlier this year. At VMWorld just now we announced our availability of our X2 platform which is the next generation of the XGMIL platform, so we're constantly innovating and as a result it's more of a rolling thunder as opposed to like a big bang. >> So I kind of look at it, there's kind of two ways that things are changing along storage. Number one there's kind of the underneath pieces, so you talked about going from FDDI, you know when we saw from disk to flash for EMC was you know, early on that that kind of reemergence of flash after a couple of decades of it being you know, not used for awhile. We've got things like NVME, NVME over fabric coming out so we're going to start there, maybe by one o'clock after there's kind of the operating model on how we change things because we've converged and cloud and all those but on some of those underlying pieces which I know keep the storage people kind of really engaged, you know where are we today with some of those transitions, what are some of the things that you're looking at over the next kind of 12, 24, 36 months? >> Terrific, I mean I see actually three vectors of change impacting the storage business and impacting us. One is the media like you said, there's NVME and we'll talk a little bit more about that. There's actually a whole bunch of stuff beyond NVME right, storage class memory, persistent memory coming out. Second set of things is consumption models, what we call consumption model round, whether it's a cloud consumption model, where if you think of cloud actually more as a consumption model as opposed to a destination. And software defined is a big thing, I think that's going to dramatically change the game, especially when you combine it with things like persistent memory. And then the third thing I think is the new wave of applications as well, that's generating a whole new class of data and adds a whole new set of requirements. For example, real time streaming analytics, right, that changes the, you can't deal with block and file and object in those worlds, you're dealing with new semantics. So those are some of the vectors that we're looking at in terms of. >> So let's start with kind of the low level, the media, you know some of those things right, what is data, what is memory, you know all those things blurring. Where you know, I hear, there seems to be so many people NVME, NVME over fabrics seems to be-- >> Hey look, so let me hit that off right in front. Right so it was 10 years ago that Dell and EMC independently before obviously we were one company actually co founded the contortion that invented NVME so we saw the meat of this technology, the limitations of SAS and SATA 10 years ago, we saw this coming. We helped drive the standards including NVME over fabric standard, and that's like, well before some of these companies that are claiming NVME today weren't actually even born. So NVME to me is a journey, right there's the there's the bus, changing from the SAS bus to the NVME bus. That's one part, then there's the media that stands behind them all, the NVME transport. Things like 3D cross point that are starting to come out, and then even beyond that you get to really persistent memory type of applications. So we see this as a journey, we're going to be rolling our NVME in all our products across the entire portfolio starting this year, later this year. For first, today scale IO already supports NVME devices in 14G, so we're going to, you're going to see that. >> Yeah, I guess my follow up, just to dig in a little deeper because when we got the CTO you've got to dig down. There were some, when flash came out, they were like oh yeah, whatever, I'm going to throw a couple of percentage in, well we saw flash greatly change architectures, it changed some of those application considerations-- >> Absolutely. >> Especially you know, Wikibon's David Floyer has been beating on let's really look at databases, let's do this. NVME, is it an extension and kind of evolution or will this be a similar revolution to what we saw with flash? >> I think it's a similar revolution. It's a similar but perhaps less of a quantum leap, I would say. And the reason is because you're going from like 10s of milliseconds or milliseconds of latency with spinning media to sub millisecond with flash. Now you're going from sub millisecond to sub sub millisecond but you know, it's getting diminishing. I think where you're going to see a lot of dramatic is as it's more on the latency as you get as the applications get closer and closer to the servers. Right so I think you're going to see a lot of pretty dramatic change in that space. >> Speaking of change and revolution, the three vectors that you talked about, media, consumption models, this new wave of applications, how, ST to you are you seeing the buyers' journey change as a result of these vectors? >> So that's actually part two of the question that Stu was just asking is while I agree that it's going to be a revolution, what I've also seen in 20 years is that these things don't happen instantly, yes flash was a big change. But even today, over 40, 40, 50% of our revenue still comes from hybrid systems. Mixed flash and, so these things take time, right? So customers are taking leaps I would say I'm seeing a spread of the early adopters and, we're probably in the big medium, in the big, the bell curve right now and then there's some laggards as well that are still buying you know, pure HDD only systems. >> Do you see a difference there, sorry, with respect to industries, maybe healthcare or financial services that are early adopters? >> Definitely, I think, there's industries and there's also size of customer, right, the bigger the customer the more, eager we see they are in doing this digital transformation so we're seeing a lot of them going all in on software defined, right, so we're definitely seeing that shift from buying purpose build arrays to software defined. Now it's not going to be instantaneous, again it's going to be over many years, similarly in the mid range and below we're seeing a shift from, modular systems to hyper converged systems as well. So we're seeing that as well, we're seeing a lot of shift from purely on prem to a hybrid solution of on prem plus cloud, so all of our products are now attaching to the cloud as well. So we're definitely seeing all of these transitions. >> When it comes to the cloud native piece, there are some that have said well, it's kind of could be a kind of completely different way of doing things, really focused on the developers and won't that just live in the public cloud, or you know will SAS applications you know, be where a lot of those live, so you know what do you say to the, you've improved media, you've improved consumption models but, maybe they're just, it's easier for me not to own some of these pieces, one of the company, small companies, I don't want to deal with infrastructure at all, let me, you know, let me yeah-- >> Yeah that's another great, great question. What we are seeing I would say is definitely some of that. Especially as you said in the smaller companies it's easy for them to get started, right, with minimal initial expenses they can get started in the public cloud so we definitely see that. But as you get larger, what we're seeing is the economics of running everything in the cloud on a sustained basis, just don't work out, it's much more cost effective to run things on ground, so I think for cost reasons when you're running over a sustained operations as well as for security reasons, we're still seeing a lot of hesitation and especially as you get to the higher end of the market, people are concerned especially with all the breaches and things like that, that they're concerned about where their assets are. So we actually at Dell Technologies I would say, and Dell EMC in particular, we're seeing a pretty significant opportunity popping up where customers want to run on prem data centers just like the cloud. And that's where things like software defined storage become really important because hey, the public clouds are running all the software defined, that's their, one of the secrets to their agility and speed. Why can't we have that prem and we actually absolutely see that in fact today's announcement of PKS is right on the money for that. >> So we're here at VMWorld, with respect to that, seeing more customers want to bring things on prem maybe kind of the true private cloud that Wikibon's been talking about. What are you guys doing now with VM or to align that, we've heard a number of things about, yesterday with AWS you mentioned Pivotal today, Google, what's going on today with Dell EMC and WM Ware to help customers really build a solid on prem solution? >> Yeah so I think Pivotal is certainly a key piece of that, Pivotal, VM Ware, so the whole VM Ware cloud foundation, cloud suite is a key piece of that. The integration with PCF is actually going to be very key because what customers need, especially the traditional customers, if you will, who don't quite have the expertise yet to build cloud native applications, they need a platform, not just an infrastructure. So I think that's why Pivotal is very important. And we're working very closely with, as Dell EMC we're working closely with both of those partners in delivering those solutions, VX Rail is a good example of that. VX Rail, VX Rack are good examples of the two technologies coming together. And so those are the kinds of things, I think that's where software defined storage, you'll see a lot more integration between Dell EMC's software defined portfolio, with the VM Ware and Pivotal ecosystems. >> So the storage group you've talked about you have a lot of options, we've been talking about software defined storage, how that you know is driving a lot of the change there, gives a lot of flexibility there. How does the storage team look at things like VMAX and Extreme IO compared to the software defined storage these days? >> Yeah so I think we, I presume everybody's seen the famous chart where there's the traditional infrastructure and then there's the cloud native, the new world. And that's a transition that's going to happen and we think it's going to be a really long transition, right. Mainframes are not dead, right, so they're still alive. And there's a reason, because people are running their absolute mission critical application on those infrastructures so we think there's definitely going to be a place for both, and it isn't all or nothing. And that's, I think, going back to innovation, your question about it, where is Dell EMC innovating, we're the only company that's actually embracing these changes, this transition to software defined, right? Where with products like ECS and Scale IO and so on and so forth, so we see that the transitions will happen slowly but there's going to be a lot of opportunity for highly reliable, you know, six, seven, nines reliable infrastructure based on purpose built infrastructure. >> Yeah, it definitely matches a lot of as you said the true private cloud report that we have on Wikibon. >> Well thank you so much, Sadir, for joining us on The Cube, we now bring you into The Cube alumni, the illustrious Cube alumni category. >> Glad to be here. >> Lisa: And thank you for sharing your insights as CTO on what you're doing with customers and innovation. >> Sadir: Thank you very much. >> And we want to thank you for watching, I'm Lisa Martin. From my cohost Stu Miniman we are live covering day two of VM World 2017 from Las Vegas, stick around, we will be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Las Vegas. Extensive signal from the noise. It's the Q covering interconnect 2016. Brought to you by IBM. Now your host, John Hurry and Dave Ilan. >> Okay, Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in Las Vegas for exclusive coverage of IBM interconnect 2016. This is Silicon Angles. The Q. That's our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Ferrier with my Coast Day Volante. Our next guest, Steve Robinson News. The GM of client technical engagement before that, in the cloud doing all the blue mix now has the army of technical soldiers out there doing all the action because it's so much robust. So much demand for horizontally scale. The sluices with vertically targeted, prepackaged application development. That's horrible. First you name it big data. Welcome back. Good to see you, John. Thanks. Good to be with you again. Always, like great to have you on because you got a great perspective. You understand the executive viewpoint. A 20 mile stare in the industry. But also you got the in the nuts and bolts in under the hood. >> That's right. A >> lot of action happening under the hood. So let's get that right away. Blue, Mrs Hot Night. Now it's about the developers. What's going on under the hood right now that customers are caring about? >> I always love the Cube. You guys were like one of the first guys talking to us two years ago when we just launched a blue makes on stage. We walked off, got in front of cameras here, and it was great. Over the past year, it's been it's been outstanding. We we're writing about 20,000 folks toe blue mix right now on public, we came out with dedicated and then what people had really been warning was local blue mix as well. So we finally have full hybrid chain that goes from behind the firewall to a single client dedicated cloud all the way up to the public as well. So we've been building that out with service is as well, so have over 106 service is on top of it. You'll see things like Watson, which is unique, our Dash CB analytics, which is unique Internet of things coming in as well. So it's been a great year old building it out and getting more clients on top of it, >> it's like really trying to change the airplane engine in 30,000 feet. Or, in your case, you guys were taken off and from the runway. How has that been? It's been growing pains, of course. Unlearning What? What's going on? What have you learned? Give us the update on >> changing the engine while the plane is flying, and we've used that analogy quite a bit in the labs and way have to show relevance in this market. You know, this market is probably the fastest face technical market I think I've ever been in, and it's moving at such a rapid pace. We had to ship a lot of technology out last year is well, we have every new middleware group in IBM. Putting service is on top of blue mix, so let's get it out there. Let's get it out fast. Now, of course, this year we're gonna harden it up a little bit as well. So more architectures, more points of view. Better look on how this stuff works together hardening up our container strategy, pulling it all the way back to the virtual machine. So both continue to expand it out but let's make it enterprise grade at the same time. >> And also, some differentiation with Watts has been a big play around Catnip. Yeah, really is different because right now with the quote, um, market the way it is court monetization is on number one's mind. Start from startups to enterprises. If you're in business, you want you're top line if you're starting to get monetization. So there's a little bit of IBM in here for people to take in. Well, >> you know, if you look at Watson, you know, when we first started with it, you know, it was this very large big chunk of software that she had to buy. And and we work with Mike Rodents Team toe. Can we chop it up into a set of service is Let's really make this a set of AP eyes, and we started noticing, you know, you saw in Main stage the other day out from Otis. You know, this was a pure startup. He's started picking up the social semantics. Let's pick up the you know, some of the works to text etcetera, conversions, and all of a sudden they're starting to add it in. They said they would have never had access to this technology before way Have that a P I said. Not growing up to 28 we announced a couple cool things this morning. We even showed how would improve your dating life. Probably need some of that with my wife is well to translate between the sexes there, but what people are doing with it now, it's kind of like blowing people. His mind is far beyond what the initial exception waas. >> So your team of your niche is when they get right. It's a large team. It's, but it's a new initiative. New Justice unit, New role for you Talk about that >> way. Kinda had >> a couple pockets of this, but way clearly found that getting clients to the cloud is both a technology challenge as well as a cultural challenge as well. So he brought together some technical experts to kind of help through that entire life chain help up front. You know, many clients are trying to figure out what their overall cloud strategy is, where they truly today and where do they want to get to be? And how can we help him with a road map? That kind of helps them through the transition. Many accounts are very comfortable with the only wanting to be private and only glimpsing forward Thio Public Cloud Helping us bridge across that as well. Then we have the lab service's teams and these air the rial ninjas, the Navy seals. They go as low as you can go and what they're helping. A good way. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's why they're helping with this very specific technical issue. Technical deployments. A lot of our dedicated local environment. These guys, they're they're really helping it wire in a cz Well, and then we have the garages, you know, we're up Thio. Five of those were going. We announced four new Blockchain garages as well. And this is where firms air coming in to kind of explore do the innovative type project as well. So I think all the way from the initial inception through rolling it out into production, having that team to be able to support him across the >> board. And so this capability existed in IBM previously, But it existed in a sort of bespoke fashion that coordinated >> couple pockets here and there. We always have supports. We had various pockets a lap service's. But we won't really wanna have the capability of seeing that client all the way through their journey, bringing it all under me. We now can easily pass the baton, Handoff says. We need to have that consistent skill there with the clients all the way through their >> journey and is the What's the life cycle of these service is? Is it Is it both pre sales in and post there? Just posted >> many times we'll get involved like our cloud advisers would get involved. Presale. They'll say a specific workload wants to go to the cloud. What are the steps we need to take to make that happen? A CZ well, with our Laps Service's teams, you know, we kind of have, you know, anywhere from a 4 to 6 week engagement. Thio do a specific technology. Let's get it in place. Let's get it wired in et cetera, and then in the garage is you know, we could just take a very novel idea and get it up to, ah, minimal viable product in about a six week period. So again, we're not doing dance lessons for life but strategically placing key skills in with accounts toe. Help him get over that next hump of their journey. >> Steve, when you look at the spectrum from from public all the way down to private and everything in between are you, I wonder if you could describe the level of capability that you are able to achieve with the best practice on Prem with regard to cloud ability. It's service is all the wonderful attributes of child that we've come to know and love. Are you able to, you know, somewhat replicate that roughly replicate that largely replicate, exactly. Replicate that. Where are we today? >> Yeah, I think >> it's a great question. I think. You know, I think most of the clients that we're dealing with have been dealing with some virtualized infrastructure, probably more VMC as they as they've been kind of progressing. That story. One of the things we did it IBM is Could we bring a true cloud infrastructure back behind the firewall? Could we bring an open stack? We bring a cloud foundry base past all the way back through because the goal, of course, is if we could have the same infrastructure private, dedicated and public as they continue to grow and got more comfortable with the public cloud that could start taking work clothes that they had built in one location and start to migrate it out with you. That that local cloud the Maur used for EJ cases. So taking that system of record and building a p i's and allowing to do extensions to that allowing you access into data records that you have today dealing with a lot of extension type cases, you know the core application still needs to be federally regulated. It needs to be under compliance domain. It's gotta be under audit. But maybe I wantto connect it in with a Fitbit or connected in with with a lot Soon are connected in with the Internet of things sensor. I gotta go public cloud for that as well. So locally we can bring that same infrastructure in and then they could doom or service. Is that extended out in the hybrid scenario >> code basis? Because this has come up. Oracle claims this is their big claim to fame. That code base is the same on premise hybrid public. Is that an issue with that? Is that just their marketing, or does it matter what's IBM take on this? >> But we've done ah lot of work with the open standard communities to let's get to a true reference implementation. So on open Stack, we've been doing a lot of work with them, and this is one of the reasons we picked up the Blue box acquisition. Could we really provide a standard open stack locally and also replicate that dedicated and, of course, have it match a reference architecture in public as well? We've also done the same thing with clout. Foundry worked with Sam Ram G to be one of the first vendors, have a certified cloud. Foundry instance is the same local dedicated in public. I think that's kind of the Holy Grail. If you could get the same infrastructural base across all, three, magic can happen. >> But management's important and integration piece becomes the new complexity. I mean, I would say it sounds easy, but it's really hard. Okay, developing in the clouds. Easy, easier ways always used to be right, right well, but not for large enterprises. The integration becomes that new kind of like criteria, right? That separates kind of the junior from the senior type players. I mean do you see the same thing and what we believe >> we do? I think there's usually two issues. We start to see that this model looks great. Let's have the same code base across all three environments. What things? We noticed that a lot of folks, when you get into Private Cloud, had tried to roll their own. You know, open Stack is an open source Project clout. Foundry is an open source project. Let's pull it down and let's see units roll it out and manage it ourselves. These air a little bit you they're very dynamic environments, and they're also a bit punishing if you don't stay current with them, both of them update on a very regular basis. And we found a lot of firms once they applied tenor well, folks to it, they just could not keep up with the right pace of change. So when the technologies we invented was a notion called relay on, this allowed us to actually to use the public cloud is our master copy and then we could provide updates to get down to the dedicated environment and down to the local. This takes the headache completely away from the firm's on trying to keep that local version current. It's not manage service, but it's kind of a new way that we can provide manage patches down to that environment. >> So one of the problems we hear in our community is and presume IBM has some visibility on this. I'm thinking about last year, John, we're at the IBM Z announcement in January, rose 1,000,000 company talked a lot about bringing transaction analytic capabilities together. But one of the problems that our community has practitioners in our community course the data for analytics. A lot of it's in the cloud and a lot of transaction data sitting, you know, on the mainframe, something. How do they bring those two together? Do I remove the data into the data center? Do I do I move pieces in how you see >> we're seeing a lot of that. A lot of it was. Bring the technology down to where the data is, and and now you know the three amount of integration you can do with public data sources, private data sources, et cetera. We're seeing a lot more of the compute want to go out to the cloud as well. You know, we've done some things like around the dash, CB Service's et cetera, where I can start to extract some of that transactional data, but maybe only need a few pieces to really make the data set. That is important to me as I move it out, so I can actually, you know, extract that record. I can actually mask it into being something brand new, and then I could minute we mix it with public data tohave. It do brand new things as well, so I think you're gonna see a lot of dynamic capability across that with or cloud computing technologies coming back behind the firewall and then more ability to release that data be intermixed with public data as well. >> What's the number one thing that you're seeing from customers that you guys were executing on? There's always the low hanging fruit for the easy winds from bringing a team of street team, if you will out. Technical service is out to clients where they really putting that gather, not their five year plans, but their one year. Of course, there's a lot of that agile going on right now. New technologies. You can't isolate one thing and break everything. Za new model. What a customer is caring about, right? What's that? What's the common thing? I think >> over there in 2015 I think the discussion changed and went from Are we going to go to the cloud or we're going to the cloud now? How are we going to do it? And the nice thing about I think a lot of enterprise architecture groups kind of took a step back to say, What do we truly have to do? What is a common platform? What is an integration layer? How do we take some of our old applications and decomposed those into a set of AP eyes? How can we then mix that with public AP eyes? So probably taking one or two projects to be proof points so they could say, this thing really has the magic associated with it. We can really build stuff fast. If we do it the right way, it's gonna be in a catalyst to have the I t. Organization now take the tough steps in what's gonna be the commonality? What common service is are we going to use and how do we start breaking up >> around things you know, we have our own data science and our backcourt operation and one of the things that we always looked at with bloom. It's way start our Amazon. But now, with blue mix, you have a couple things kind of coming together in real time. You said it's getting hard, but those hardened areas are important identity. For instance, where's the data is an instruction and structure. I want a little mongo year or something over there, but with blue mix and compose, I oh, really has a nice fit. I want to explain to the folks we talked before he came on about this new dynamic of composed Io and some of the things that are gluing around blue mix. Could you share this >> William Davis King right? And I think people look to the Cloud Data Service is air. Probably it's the most critical, the most visible, and the one we have to harden up the most is well, even though IBM has been well known for D. B two and we've been a >> wire composed right >> that we did Cognos first, and then we followed up with composed by you because recent waded about, we did compose. I know about eight months ago what we liked about it was all of your favorite flavors, you know? So your your progress, your mongo, you're you're ready. But really having it behave like Like what you would want an enterprise database to do. You can back it up. You can have multiple versions of it. We can replicate itself >> is a perfect cloud need of civic >> class. It has all the cloud properties to it and all the enterprise. Great capabilities with it. Yeah, we've got that now in public, and then you're gonna start seeing dedicated, and you want >> to go bare metal, Just go to soft layer. It's not required right on these things where this will work in the cloud, and then you get the bare metal object you want pushed up the bare metal. No problem. Well, I think >> you know it. Almost hybrid is not gonna get a new definition around it. So it's all gonna be around control and automation, more automation. You need to go all the way up to a cloud foundry where it's managing all the health, checking and keeping your apple. I've etcetera. If you want to go all the way down to bare metal so you can tune it audited et cetera. You can do that as well. I think I've got one of the broader spectrum, is there? >> I'm impressed with the composer. I got to say, Go ahead, get hotel Excited by what? I get excited by just about every way. Just love the whole Dev Ops has been just a game changer in extras. Code has been around for a while, but it's actually going totally mainstream. That's right. The benefits are just off the charts. With Mobile, we have the mobile first guys on. Earlier in the Swift, we had 10 made 12 year old kid. I mean, it's just really amazing. Now that the APS themselves aren't the discussion, it's the under the hood. That's right, so you can have an app look and feel like it's targeted for a vertical, say, retail or whatever. But the actions under the hood yeah, yeah, more than ever. Now >> it's, you know it's funny this year, you know, Dick Tino to the Devil Obsession yesterday and you're the amount of proof points we had around it last year. We were scrambling a little bit and this year it's just we always had to thin out. That's how many guys were having great success with this stuff is coming into its own. >> It totally is. And you guys are give you guys Props were running as fast as you can and you're working hard. And it's not just talk. Yeah, it's It's it's legit. I'm gonna ask you a question. What's the big learnings from last year? This year? What's happened? What do you look back and say? Wow, we really learned a lot or something that might have been Magda ified for you in this journey this past year. >> A lot of it goes back to, you know, this changing culture at IBM, you know, the amount of code we put out in two years was just just unbelievable. But I think also the IBM becoming a true cloud company. Some of that we did with our own shop some, but we did through injecting it with acquisitions. You know, like to compose Io the cloud and team, the blue box guys, et cetera. I think we got the chops now to play it play pro ball way worked very hard, Teoh. How many folks, Can we attract the blue mix? We're getting up to 20,000 week. Right now. We're starting. Get some great recognition and the successes are rolling in as well. So a lot of hard work and a lot of busted knuckles. A lot of guys are tired. Definitely, definitely straight in the game now. >> Ready for the crow bait? Taking the pro GameCube madness starts on cute madness. There were, you know, keep matched all the brackets of the Cube alumni and vote on it turns into a hack a phone because everyone stuffed the ballots. Let's talk about pro ball for next year, a CZ. You guys continue? Sure. The theme here obviously is developer. I mean, the show could be dedicated 100%. The blooming LeBlanc up there kind of going fast at the end of this booth on the clock anymore. Time >> right. Like the Star Wars trailer we had >> going up, he needed more time. So it's good props you got for this year. What's going on the road map this year? What if some of the critical goals that you guys see on your group and then just in general for the thing a >> lot of the activities were gonna be doing again is hardening the stack. I've got a brand new team now called a Solution Architecture, where we're looking at it from top to bottom, taking customer scenarios and really testing it out. How do you do? Back up. How do you do? Disaster recovery? How do you do? Multi geography, You know, things like PC I compliance. The rial enterprise problems are now coming to the class global and their global. And with security and compliance, they're changing in a very dynamic fashion. We have to show how you can do those in the cloud. You'd be amazed on how many conversations we have with Si SOS every single week. Is the cloud secure? How do we do enterprise? Great workloads. IBM is bringing that story to the cloud as well. That's the story of >> a potato that content >> Curation is unbelievable, right? That's the hardest part. And it's not that we have it fixed either. But you were doing more of aggregating it together so that we can really pull it all together. I call it the diamond Mine versus the jewelry store. You know, we always have really did you got yet? The great answers out there somewhere. But if you don't start to pull it together into a single place So one of things we did this year was launched the blue mixed garage methodology where we took all of our best practices. We took text test cases, even sample code, and brought it into a single methodology site where people start to go out, pull it down, use it, etcetera. Previously, we had it scattered all over the place, and we're gonna be doing more things like that. Bring in the assets to the programmers, things that we've tried, things we've tested being more open about it, putting in a single location. >> Well, we certainly would like to help promote that. Any kind of those kind of customer reference architectures. Happy to pump on silicon angle with the bond outlook for the vibe. I'm sorry. Five for the show things year. What's the vibe this year? You know, I think I've >> been very impressed with it, and I think, you know, I've been stepping up its game If you go down to the blue. Mixed garages are motives. A motorcycle on stage, you know, kind of getting a little more hip and happening as well. But I think the clients here and this is always about the customer stories and some of the things that we're hearing from the three guys start ups that are doing GPS logistical management 22 to the big accounts, and the big banks that you really see have embraced the cloud and doing great stories on it as well. I think people come to this show so they see what their peers were doing. And they definitely walk away with a sense that the cloud Israel it's happening and 2016. It is really going to driving it home. That has to be part of everybody. Strategy motorcycles I had put on the Harley Man. We'll take it for a spin guarantee. Come on down >> and give my wife. When I got married, it was terms of conditions. That's right. That's right. Last, Watson that Yeah, Thanks, Steve. Thanks. Taking the time and great to see you again. Congratulations. What? They get technical engagement team that you have all the work that you did that blue mix noted certainly by the cube. Congratulations and continued success with Loomis congratulating >> you guys. Well, always a pleasure. >> Okay. Cube Madness, March 15th Cube Gems go to Twitter. And speaking of jewelry, we have Cube gems hashtag Cube gems. That's the highlights of the videos up there. Real time. And, of course, we're gonna get that TV for all. All the action videos are up there right now. I'll be right back with more coverage after this short break here in Las Vegas.