>>The Cube presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi everybody. We're winding down. Day two, a forward five UI Path customer conference. This is the fourth time the Cube has been at a forward. Dave Nicholson, Dave Ante. Maureen Fleming is here. This is a program Vice President idc. She's got the data fresh survey data. We'd love to have the analyst on. And Kevin CRO is back on the cube. He's a partner for intelligent automation and digital. Upscaling is the operative word. Kevin, good to see you again, pwc. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on you guys. Yep. All right. We, we love idc. We love the data. You guys are all about it. So you've just completed a recent study. Tell us all about it. Who'd you survey? What was the objective? What'd you learn? >>Yeah, what we wanted to do was try to learn more about people who are adopting robotic process automation. So mainly large, you know, larger to midsize, enter midsize, large enterprises. And we wanted to figure out how many of them had a citizen developer program. And then we wanted to compare the difference between people who do not have that program and people who do, and what the difference is in terms of how, what kind of reach they have inside the enterprise, and also the different ways that, that they valued it. So the difference, so we asked the same questions of the, of these people without them knowing that we were actually looking for a citizen developer. And then we compared the results of that to see is it more valuable to have citizen developer and enterprise, or is it more valuable to have enterprise only? So what was the impact >>Global survey? >>It was North America. >>North America. Was it, was it we any kind of slice and dice in terms of industry or targets or you, >>We, we kept it across industry, cross industry. We're finding that RPA is adopting cross >>Industry way. Was it, was it UI path specific or more Any tech, Any automation, >>Any rpa. >>Okay. And top two or three findings. >>So one thing was, first off, the rapid growth rate in citizen, citizen developer programs grew 47% over a two year period. And so now for people who've adopted rpa, it's the majority there. They're, you know, it's a pervasive trend to >>See you're taking over, >>You know, right now the conclusion from that, and some other studies that I did that have similar conclusions is that we have to start learning to live with this idea that business users can learn how to develop. They are developing their driving value. And so now we just need to figure out how to build these sorts of programs accurately. And the other, the really key finding of it was that, that there was much more significant reach for people that were doing citizen developer plus enterprise automation, more reach, more processes touched, more employees impacted by it. And then on top of it, the, they rated the value, the people who had the combination rated the programs at a higher value across different measures. So effectively the, the combination is working out better than standalone top down automation. >>So Kevin, from what, what's your takeaway here? What does this mean to you and your customers? >>So I guess a, a couple things and just anecdotally, you know, building on what Marine found in the, in the survey, the concept of citizen development is a real concept and it's something that organizations are applying and trying to figure out how to apply at scale. The reason why they're doing it is twofold. One, early automation efforts struggled to get scale and they struggled to deliver value from a scale perspective. There were two major problems. The ability to identify the right opportunities and the ability to tackle a wide range of, from the little to the very large, often teams focus on the very large, but don't focus on the little, the little is important. The second part is thinking about how you create a better culture of innovation and actually drive identifying opportunities for the, the more, I'll call it technology professionals to focus on. And so, you know, there's been, you know, based on that big drive to say, okay, not how do we replace automation professionals with business users, you know, the random accountant, the random operations analyst. It's more around how do you actually engage them in innovation. And that in, in that engagement may involve actual hands on building of bots and technologies like UiPath or it might just involve generating ideas to get further engaged. >>So 47% growth. What's the catalyst for that kind of growth? Where's that come from? >>I scarcity? So, well there are a couple things. One is, you know, we all know about developer scarcity and it's strive to automate. You know, if you have an automation strategy in place, you wanna do this quickly and aggressively. But if you've got a shortage of, of people, you know, developers don't have enough, they're turning over. Then you go to, you go and figure out, well this is low code. And so why can't we train our business users who are the subject matter experts to do automation for themselves or their teams? So sort of think about this as the long tail, the things that that top down like enterprise, I think UiPath is calling it enterprise automation versus people automation. So, you know, so there's just different things that they work on as well. And there's also, you know, fearlessness on the part of a lot of people on the business side, they're not afraid of technology, they're not afraid of getting trained. >>And the other piece to me that made, like, I've covered this topic for a long time, and what I found originally when people started talking about citizen developers is that they, they were calling me and having inquiry about why these programs were failing. And when we would decompose the failure was because the ma their managers didn't give them any, they didn't put 'em in trading but wouldn't get, give 'em time to develop. And so they just could not, you know, they just were running into problems. And so with things that, things like PWC and what they're doing, they're sort of saying, here's the, here are the features of a program that matter, including being given time to develop and do that as part of your job. So >>Maureen, is there a minimum level size of organization that you find taking advantage of this? I mean, you know, where's the sweet spot for the value delivered from this kind of automation? >>Do you have an idea? Right. So we, we tended in some of the surveys, we tended to do like thousand employees up. So we were screening for that. But I also met with the, our, our analysts who covered smb, small midsize. She said that they've had that for a long time because they don't have these clear distinctions between IT and business. So then the question is, who are adopters of rpa, for example? And you know that that's still a little bit at, at, you know, the enterprise level, but, but citizen developer at it, it, it is SB is just a given concept. So, >>But is it, is there, is there an economy of scale that kicks in at a certain point? Have we been able to figure that out? I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of business process automation being such a competitive advantage that there becomes almost a divide because of smaller organization. Yes, they could go out and they can buy, they have access to the same software packages, but you have to build all of those processes. Yes. You have to develop those processes over time. So is there any sense for a divide possibly happening or what the, >>It's a really good question because they, you know, in a way people have to understand what a business process is, you know, and they need to understand what the technology can do. And so from that perspective, people who have thought leaders inside their organization and maybe have a chance to get out and look at broader topics might be more inclined to try this out and also identify directly as a problem. SMB also tends to try to buy package solutions. And you see larger enterprises say, well, you know, what we do is unique and so we should just sort of use horizontal technology and apply it at will where it's needed. And so for me that's kind of why we organize toward higher, you know, higher si, larger sizes. As it gets simplified, it's gonna go down into the SMB market though. >>So Kevin, when it comes to you guys, your client engagements, upscaling keeps, keep coming back to that word low code. Is it fundamental component of upscaling? Is it, is it, I don't say synonymous, but is it a prerequisite to have low code capabilities to scale? >>You know, from our perspective, I think the two biggest challenges with making this work, one is learning and development. How do you actually teach the skills in a way that allows people to apply them very quickly and give them the time to actually function right to the finding about managers not necessarily being supportive. And so you have to figure out, you know, what, you know, how do you actually create that right environment and give people the right tools? It's an area that we invested really heavily in from the PWC side with the, with the launch of our pro edge platform and really thinking about how to solve that. But then the problem that you're ultimately getting at once you solve the people equation is how do you get scale and how do you move quicker? And so the, you know, the, the, the, the biggest challenge is not should you let a, a business user build a bot. It's, you know, how do we actually build many bots, generate many ideas for the professional developers and actually create an ecosystem to move faster. Every client that we work with, it's all about, you know, how we're not moving fast enough. A COE cannot, you know, by itself automate an entire organization. And so, you know, the, you know, the, the this theme of scale really becomes, you know, the critical aspect of this >>Is the former other words, the the teaching and individual how to build a bot. Is that trivial or, or is that really not the big gate is what you're saying? It's, >>We don't think it's a big gate. I think the, you know, to the original question, I think the, the, the low code space is a ripe spot for this, you know, upskilling construct because you're not, you're not, you're, you're gauging with employees who don't have an undergraduate degree in computer science who are not IT professionals. And so giving someone, you know, a book on job and saying, go build an application's, probably not gonna be very productive. But with, with tools in the, in the low code space, be it RPA or be it other forms of lower code technology, you get people opportunity where they need to learn some technical concepts. You need to understand how the technology works and how basic programming techniques work, but you don't need to understand everything. And again, going back to the, the simple versus the complex, the goal here is not to turn people into professional developers. The goal is to get them engaged and, and create, you know, make them part of that company's digital transformation. >>But from what you just described, that's, to me it's basic logic skills. I mean you don't have to be, like I say, a assembly language programmer. Yeah. But you gotta understand and you gotta know the business process, right? I mean you have to be a domain expert. Yeah. >>But that, but that's the, that's the biggest advantage of this. You're engaging the people closest to the business process, right? You look at how most big IT projects failed was the same reason a lot of early automation efforts failed. You're creating, you know, a function that essentially lives in an ivory tower that's focused on, you know, where can I go out and find opportunities and automate. But you're not, those aren't the people that run the process day to day. Yeah, okay. You, you put it, you make those people that run the process day to day accountable, you're gonna get a different outcome >>And they'll lean in and get excited. Exactly. >>So where, where, where is that transition? I know it's easy to say, oh, you know, it's logic and people can do it, but what about having a bot whisperer in your, in your organization who's who, who literally says, you know, Maureen, I'm gonna come and sit with you on Friday and you're going to explain your frustrations to me and I'm gonna sit right next to you and I'm gonna code this bot for you and we're gonna test it and you're gonna tell me if it does what you want it to do. And Maureen doesn't need to understand how to move the widgets around and do anything. >>It's, you know, it's a great question cuz I think it's changing the nature of how you accelerate these efforts, right? I think you know, the, and if I go into early RPA days, the initial kind of thought process was let's just get a factory in here and build as many bots as possible. A lot of our client engagement today isn't always around our bot development services. It's around can you bring in coaches? Can you hold office hours? Exactly. We have an office hour construct, which I've never really had in my consulting career where we put, you know, I mean this obviously post covid when when people are in their offices, we put someone in a room and people can come by and get help. And I think having that, that coaching and mentoring construct is very helpful. What we've also seen, and I think it's a really critical success factor for clients to make this work, is thinking about how they pick a subset of their population and making them, you know, digital accelerators, digital champions, pick your word, not it professionals, peers who will actually get realtime dedicated. Right. And maybe a full time or a halftime job where that's exactly what they do. >>Maureen, we're out of time, but my last question for you is, when you do a survey like this, you know you have open ended sometimes and you analyze a survey, you take a bath in the data, write it up. There's always something that you wish you'd asked, which is great cuz then you could do it on the next one. What, was there anything in there that you wish you'd asked that you're gonna ask in the next one? Are you gonna explore in the next survey? >>Yeah. One of the things that I asked, one thing that I was glad I asked was, I, I, we, we spent time finding what were considered business side product champions or RPA champions and then we ask 'em what they did, how often they did, how much time they spent. But what I want, what I really, really wanna ask of my next survey, and I will, I've got a planned, is to find out how, how what percentage of population is involved with, with big a citizen developer and what activities are common and what are less common and you know, what their challenges are. So we'll be looking at a different kind of audience with this next >>Survey. Well, we'd love to have you back to talk about that. Just invite, Thank you very much. Come queue. Really appreciate it Kevin. Good to see you again. >>Good to see you. >>All right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave Ante. We're here wrapping up day two of UI path forward. Five live from the Venetian, all Las Vegas. Super right back.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. CUBE's coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, AWS re:inforce 22, security conference. It's AWS' big security conference. Of course, theCUBE's here, all the reinvent, reese, remars, reinforced. We cover 'em all now and the summits. I'm John Furrier, my host Dave Vellante. We have IDC weighing in here with their analysts. We've got some great guests here, Jay Bretzmann research VP at IDC and Philip Bues research manager for Cloud security. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it. Great to be here. >> Appreciate coming. >> Got a full circle, right? (all laughing) Security's more interesting than storage, isn't it? (all laughing) >> Dave and Jay worked together. This is a great segment. I'm psyched that you guys are here. We had Crawford and Matt Eastwood on at HPE Discover a while back and really the data you guys are getting and the insights are fantastic. So congratulations to IDC. You guys doing great work. We appreciate your time. I want to get your reaction to the event and the keynotes. AWS has got some posture and they're very aggressive on some tones. Some things that we didn't hear. What's your reaction to the keynote? Share your assessment. >> So, you know, I manage two different research services at IDC right now. They are both Cloud security and identity and digital security, right? And what was really interesting is the intersection between the two this morning, because every one of those speakers that came on had something to say about identity or least privileged access, or enable MFA, or make sure that you control who gets access to what and deny explicitly. And it's always been a challenge a little bit in the identity world because a lot of people don't use MFA. And in RSA, that was another big theme at the RSA conference, MFA everywhere. Why don't they use it? Because it introduces friction and all of a sudden people can't get their jobs done. And the whole point of a network is letting people on to get that data they want to get to. So that was kind of interesting, but as we have in the industry, this shared responsibility model for Cloud computing, we've got shared responsibility for between Philip and I. (Philip laughing) I have done in the past more security of the Cloud and Philip is more security in the Cloud. >> So yeah. >> And now with Cloud operation Super Cloud, as we call it, you have on premises, private Cloud coming back, or hasn't really gone anywhere, all that on premises, Cloud operations, public Cloud, and now edge exploding with new requirements. It's really an ops challenge right now. Not so much dev. So the sec and op side is hot right now. >> Yeah, well, we've made this move from monolithic to microservices based applications. And so during the keynote this morning, the announcement around the GuardDuty Malware Protection component, and that being built into the pricing of current GuardDuty, I thought was really key. And there was also a lot of talk about partnering in security certifications, which is also so very important. So we're seeing this move towards filling in that talent gap, which I think we're all aware of in the security industry. >> So Jake, square the circle for me. So Kirk Coofell talked about Amazon AWS identity, where does AWS leave off, and companies like Okta or Ping identity or Cybertruck pickup, how are they working together? Does it just create more confusion and more tools for customers? We know the overused word of seamless. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's never seamless, so how should we think about that? >> So, identity has been around for 35 years or something like that. Started with the mainframes and all that. And if you understand the history of it, you make more sense to the current market. You have to know where people came from and the baggage they're carrying, 'cause they're still carrying a lot of that baggage. Now, when it comes to the Cloud Service providers, they're more an accommodation from the identity standpoint. Let's make it easy inside of AWS to let you single sign on to anything in the Cloud that they have, right? Let's also introduce an additional MFA capability to keep people safer whenever we can and provide people with tools, to get into those applications somewhat easily, while leveraging identities that may live somewhere else. So there's a whole lot of the world that is still active, directory-centric, right? There's another portion of companies that were born in the Cloud that were able to jump on things like Okta and some of the other providers of these universal identities in the Cloud. So, like I said, if you understand where people came from in the beginning, you start to say, "Yeah, this makes sense." >> It's interesting you talk about mainframe. I always think about Rack F, you know. And I say, "Okay, who did what, when, where?" And you hear about a lot of those themes. So what's the best practice for MFA, that's non-SMS-based? Is it you got to wear something around your neck, is it to have sort of a third party authenticator? What are people doing that you guys would recommend? >> Yeah, one quick comment about adoption of MFA. If you ask different suppliers, what percent of your base that does SSO also does MFA, one of the biggest suppliers out there, Microsoft will tell you it's under 25%. That's pretty shocking. All the messaging that's come out about it. So another big player in the market was called Duo, Cisco bought them. >> Yep. >> And because they provide networks, a lot of people buy their MFA. They have probably the most prevalent type of MFA, it's called Push. And Push can be a red X and a green check mark to your phone, it can be a QR code, somewhere, it can be an email push as well. So that is the next easiest thing to adopt after SMS. And as you know, SMS has been denigrated by NIST and others saying, it's susceptible to man and middle attacks. It's built on a telephony protocol called SS7. Predates anything, there's no certification either side. The other real dynamic and identity is the whole adoption of PKI infrastructure. As you know, certificates are used for all kinds of things, network sessions, data encryption, well, identity increasingly. And a lot of the consumers and especially the work from anywhere, people these days have access through smart devices. And what you can do there, is you can have an agent on that smart device, generate your private key and then push out a public key and so the private key never leaves your device. That's one of the most secure ways to- >> So if our SIM card gets hacked, you're not going to be as vulnerable? >> Yeah, well, the SIM card is another challenge associated with the older ways, but yeah. >> So what do you guys think about the open source connection and they mentioned it up top. Don't bolt on security, implying shift left, which is embedding it in like sneak companies, like sneak do that. Very container oriented, a lot of Kubernetes kind of Cloud native services. So I want to get your reaction to that. And then also this reasoning angle they brought up. Kind of a higher level AI reasoning decisions. So open source, and this notion of AI reasoning. or AI reason. >> And you see more open source discussion happening, so you have your building maintaining and vetting of the upstream open source code, which is critical. And so I think AWS talking about that today, they're certainly hitting on a nerve, as you know, open source continues to proliferate. Around the automated reasoning, I think that makes sense. You want to provide guide rails and you want to provide roadmaps and you want to have sort of that guidance as to, okay, what's a correlation analysis of different tools and products? And so I think that's going to go over really well, yeah. >> One of the other key points about open source is, everybody's in a multi-cloud world, right? >> Yeah. >> And so they're worried about vendor lock in. They want an open source code base, so that they don't experience that. >> Yeah, and they can move the code around, and make sure it works well on each system. Dave and I were just talking about some of the dynamics around data control planes. So they mentioned encrypt everything which is great and I message by the way, I love that one. But oh, and he mentioned data at rest. I'm like, "What about data in flight? "Didn't hear that one." So one of the things we're seeing with SuperCloud, and now multi-cloud kind of as destinations of that, is that in digital transformation, customers are leaning into owning their data flows. >> Yeah. >> Independent of say the control plane aspects of what could come in. This is huge implications for security, where sharing data is huge, even Schmidt on stage said, we have billions and billions of things happening that we see things that no one else sees. So that implies, they're sharing- >> Quad trillion. >> Trillion, 15 zeros. (Jay laughs) >> 15 zeros. >> So that implies they're sharing that or using that pushing that into something. So sharing is huge with cyber security. So that implies open data, data flows. How do you guys see this evolving? I know it's kind of emerging, but it's becoming a nuanced point, that's critical to the architecture. >> Well, yeah, I think another way to look at that is the sharing of intelligence and some of the recent directives, from the executive branch, making it easier for private companies to share data and intelligence, which I think strengthens the cyber community overall. >> Depending upon the supplier, it's either an aggregate level of intelligence that has been anonymized or it's specific intelligence for your environment that everybody's got a threat feed, maybe two or three, right? (John laughs) But back to the encryption point, I mean, I was working for an encryption startup for a little while after I left IBM, and the thing is that people are scared of it. They're scared of key management and rotation. And so when you provide- >> Because they might lose the key. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> It's like shooting yourself in the foot, right? So that's when you have things like, KMS services from Amazon and stuff that really help out a lot. And help people understand, okay, I'm not alone in this. >> Yeah, crypto owners- >> They call that hybrid, the hybrid key, they don't know how they call the data, they call it the hybrid. What was that? >> Key management service? >> The hybrid- >> Oh, hybrid HSM, correct? >> Yeah, what is that? What is that? I didn't get that. I didn't understand what he meant by the hybrid post quantum key agreement. >> Hybrid post quantum key exchange. >> AWS never made a product name that didn't have four words in it. (John laughs) >> But he did reference the new NIST algos. And I think I inferred that they were quantum proof or they claim to be, and AWS was testing those. >> Correct, yeah. >> So that was kind of interesting, but I want to come back to identity for a second. So, this idea of bringing traditional IAM and Privileged Access Management together, is that a pipe dream, is that something that is actually going to happen? What's the timeframe, what's your take on that? >> So, there are aspects of privilege in every sort of identity. Back when it was only the back office that used computers for calculations, right? Then you were able to control how many people had access. There were two types of users, admins and users. These days, everybody has some aspect of- >> It's a real spectrum, really. >> Yeah. >> Granular. >> You got the C-suite, the finance people, the DevOps people, even partners and whatever. They all need some sort of privileged access, and the term you hear so much is least-privileged access, right? Shut it down, control it. So, in some of my research, I've been saying that vendors who are in the PAM space, Privilege Access Management space, will probably be growing their suites, playing a bigger role, building out a stack, because they have the expertise and the perspective that says, "We should control this better." How do we do that, right? And we've been seeing that recently. >> Is that a combination of old kind of antiquated systems meets for proprietary hyper scale, or kind of like build your own? 'Cause I mean, Amazon, these guys, Facebook, they all build their own stuff. >> Yes, they do. >> Then enterprises buy services from general purpose identity management systems. >> So as we were talking about knowing the past and whatever, Privileged Access Management used to be about compliance reporting. Just making sure that I knew who accessed what? And could prove it, so I didn't fail at all. >> It wasn't a critical infrastructure item. >> No, and now these days, what it's transitioning into, is much more risk management, okay. I know what our risk is, I'm ahead of it. And the other thing in the PAM space, was really session monitor. Everybody wanted to watch every keystroke, every screen's scrape, all that kind of stuff. A lot of the new Privileged Access Management, doesn't really require that. It's a nice to have feature. You kind of need it on the list, but is anybody really going to implement it? That's the question, right. And then if you do all that session monitoring, does anybody ever go back and look at it? There's only so many hours in the day. >> How about passwordless access? (Jay laughs) I've heard people talk about that. I mean, that's as a user, I can't wait but- >> Well, it's somewhere we want to all go. We all want identity security to just disappear and be recognized when we log in. So the thing with passwordless is, there's always a password somewhere. And it's usually part of a registration action. I'm going to register my device with a username password, and then beyond that I can use my biometrics, right? I want to register my device and get a private key, that I can put in my enclave, and I'll use that in the future. Maybe it's got to touch ID, maybe it doesn't, right? So even though there's been a lot of progress made, it's not quote, unquote, truly passwordless. There's a group, industry standards group called Fido. Which is Fast Identity Online. And what they realized was, these whole registration passwords, that's really a single point of failure. 'Cause if I can't recover my device, I'm in trouble. So they just did new extension to sort of what they were doing, which provides you with much more of like an iCloud vault that you can register that device in and other devices associated with that same identity. >> Get you to it if you have to. >> Exactly. >> I'm all over the place here, but I want to ask about ransomware. It may not be your wheelhouse. But back in the day, Jay, remember you used to cover tape. All the backup guys now are talking about ransomware. AWS mentioned it today and they showed a bunch of best practices and things you can do. Air gaps wasn't one of them. I was really surprised 'cause that's all every anybody ever talks about is air gaps and a lot of times that air gap could be a guess to the Cloud, I guess, I'm not sure. What are you guys seeing on ransomware apps? >> We've done a lot of great research around ransomware as a service and ransomware, and we just had some data come out recently, that I think in terms of spending and spend, and as a result of the Ukraine-Russia war, that ransomware assessments rate number one. And so it's something that we encourage, when we talk to vendors and in our services, in our publications that we write about taking advantage of those free strategic ransomware assessments, vulnerability assessments, as well and then security and training ranked very highly as well. So, we want to make sure that all of these areas are being funded well to try and stay ahead of the curve. >> Yeah, I was surprised to not see air gaps on the list, that's all everybody talks about. >> Well, the old model for air gaping in the land days, the novel days, you took your tapes home and put them in the sock drawer. (all laughing) >> Well, it's a form of air gap. (all laughing) >> Security and no one's going to go there and clean out. >> And then the internet came around and ruined it. >> Guys, final question we want to ask you, guys, we kind of zoom out, great commentary by the way. Appreciate it. We've seen this in many markets, a collection of tools emerge and then there's its tool sprawl. So cyber we're seeing the trend now where mon goes up on stage of all the ecosystems, probably other vendors doing the same thing where they're organizing a platform on top of AWS to be this super platform, for super Cloud capability by building a more platform thing. So we're saying there's a platform war going on, 'cause customers don't want the complexity. I got a tool but it's actually making it more complex if I buy the other tool. So the tool sprawl becomes a problem. How do you guys see this? Do you guys see this platform emerging? I mean tools won't go away, but they have to be easier. >> Yeah, we do see a consolidation of functionality and services. And we've been seeing that, I think through a 2020 Cloud security survey that we released that was definitely a trend. And that certainly happened for many companies over the last six to 24 months, I would say. And then platformization absolutely is something we talk and write about all the time so... >> Couple of years ago, I called the Amazon tool set an erector set because it really required assembly. And you see the emphasis on training here too, right? You definitely need to go to AWS University to be competent. >> It wasn't Lego blocks yet. >> No. >> It was erector set. >> Yeah. >> Very good distinction. >> Loose. >> And you lose a few. (chuckles) >> But still too many tools, right? You see, we need more consolidation. It's getting interesting because a lot of these companies have runway and you look at sale point at stock prices held up 'cause of the Thoma Bravo acquisition, but all the rest of the cyber stocks have been crushed especially the high flyers, like a Sentinel-1 one or a CrowdStrike, but just still M and A opportunity. >> So platform wars. Okay, final thoughts. What do you, think is happening next? What's your outlook for the next year or so? >> So, in the identity space, I'll talk about, Philip can cover Cloud for us. It really is more consolidation and more adoption of things that are beyond simple SSO. It was, just getting on the systems and now we really need to control what you're able to get to and who you are. And do it as transparently as we possibly can, because otherwise, people are going to lose productivity. They're not going to be able to get to what they want. And that's what causes the C-suite to say, "Wait a minute," DevOps, they want to update the product every day. Make it better. Can they do that or did security get in the way? People, every once in a while call security, the Department of No, right? >> They ditch it on stage. They want to be the Department of Yes. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And the department that creates additional value. If you look at what's going on with B2C or CIAM, consumer oriented identity, that is all about opening up new direct channels and treating people like their old friends, not like you don't know them, you have to challenge them. >> We always say, you want to be in the boat together, it sinks or not. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Philip I'm glad- >> Okay, what's your take? What's your outlook for the year? >> Yeah, I think, something that we've been seeing as consolidation and integration, and so companies looking at from built time to run time, investing in shift left infrastructure is code. And then also in the runtime detection, makes perfect sense to have both the agent and agent lists so that you're covering any of the gaps that might exist. >> Awesome, Jay Phillip, thanks for coming on "theCUBE" with IDC and sharing your- >> Oh, our pleasure- >> Perspective, commentary and insights and outlook. Appreciate it. >> You bet. >> Thank you. >> Okay, we've got the great direction here from IDC analyst here on the queue. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Be back more after this short break. (bright upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Cube's coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, AWS reinforced 22, the security conference. It's ADOS big security conference. Of course, the cubes here, all the reinvent res re Mars reinforce. We cover 'em all now and the summits. I'm John. Very my host, Dave ante have IDC weighing in here with their analysis. We've got some great guests here, Jay Brisbane, research VP at IDC and Philip who research managed for cloud security. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Appreciate it. Great >>To, to be here. I appreciate the got the full >>Circle, right? Just, security's more interesting >>Than storage. Isn't it? >>Dave, Dave and Jay worked together. This is a, a great segment. I'm psyched that you guys are here. We had Crawford and Matt Eastwood on at HPE discover a while back and really the, the, the data you guys are getting and the insights are fantastic. So congratulations to IDC. You guys doing great work. We appreciate your time. I wanna get your reaction to the event and the keynotes. AWS has got some posture and they're very aggressive on some tones. Some things that they didn't, we didn't hear. What's your reaction to the keynote, share your, your assessment. >>So, you know, I managed two different research services at IDC right now. They are both cloud security and identity and, and digital security. Right. And what was really interesting is the intersection between the two this morning, because every one of those speakers that came on had something to say about identity or least privileged access, or, you know, enable MFA, or make sure that you, you know, control who gets access to what and deny explicitly. Right? And it's always been a challenge a little bit in the identity world because a lot of people don't use MFA. And in RSA, that was another big theme at the RSA conference, right? MFA everywhere. Why don't they use it because it introduces friction and all of a sudden people can't get their jobs done. Right. And the whole point of a network is letting people on to get that data they want to get to. So that was kind of interesting, but, you know, as we have in the industry, this shared responsibility model for cloud computing, we've got shared responsibility for between Philip and I, I have done in the ke past more security of the cloud and Philip is more security in the cloud, >>So yeah. And it's, and now with cloud operation, super cloud, as we call it, you have on premises, private cloud coming back, or hasn't really gone anywhere, all that on premises, cloud operations, public cloud, and now edge exploding with new requirements. Yeah. It's really an ops challenge right now. Not so much dev. So the sick and op side is hot right now. >>Yeah. Well, we've made this move from monolithic to microservices based applications. And so during the keynote this morning, the announcement around the guard duty malware protection component, and that being built into the pricing of current guard duty, I thought was, was really key. And there was also a lot of talk about partnering in security certifications. Yeah. Which is also so very important. So we're seeing this move towards filling in that talent gap, which I think we're all aware of in the security industry. >>So Jake square, the circle for me. So Kirk, Coel talked about Amazon AWS identity, where does AWS leave off and, and companies like Okta or ping identity or crock pickup, how are they working together? Does it just create more confusion and more tools for customers? We, we have, we know the over word overused word of seamless. Yeah. Yeah. It's never seamless. So how should we think about that? >>So, you know, identity has been around for 35 years or something like that started with the mainframes and all that. And if you understand the history of it, you make more sense to the current market. You have to know where people came from and the baggage they're carrying, cuz they're still carrying a lot of that baggage. Now, when it comes to the cloud service providers, they're more an accommodation from the identity standpoint, let's make it easy inside of AWS to let you single sign on to anything in the cloud that they have. Right. Let's also introduce an additional MFA capability to keep people safer whenever we can and, you know, provide people the tools to, to get into those applications somewhat easily, right. While leveraging identities that may live somewhere else. So, you know, there's a whole lot of the world that is still active directory centric, right? There's another portion of companies that were born in the cloud that were able to jump on things like Okta and some of the other providers of these universal identities in the cloud. So, you know, like I said, you, if you understand where people came from in the beginning, you start to, to say, yeah, this makes sense. >>It's, it's interesting. You talk about mainframe. I, I always think about rack F you know, and I say, okay, who did what, when, where, yeah. And you hear about a lot of those themes. What, so what's the best practice for MFA? That's, that's non SMS based. Is it, you gotta wear something around your neck, is it to have sort of a third party authenticator? What are people doing that is that, that, that you guys would recommend? >>Yeah. One quick comment about adoption of MFA. You know, if you ask different suppliers, what percent of your base that does SSO also does MFA one of the biggest suppliers out there Microsoft will tell you it's under 25%. That's pretty shocking. Right? All the messaging that's come out about it. So another big player in the market was called duo. Cisco bought them. Yep. Right. And because they provide networks, a lot of people buy their MFA. They have probably the most prevalent type of MFA it's called push. Right. And push can be, you know, a red X and a green check mark to your phone. It can be a QR code, you know, somewhere, it can be an email push as well. So that is the next easiest thing to adopt after SMS. And as you know, SMS has been denigrated by N and others saying, you know, it's susceptible to man and middle attacks. >>It's built on a telephony protocol called SS seven. Yep. You know, predates anything. There's no certification, either side. The other real dynamic and identity is the whole adoption of PKI infrastructure. As you know, certificates are used for all kinds of things, network sessions, data encryption, well identity increasingly, and a lot of the, you know, consumers and especially the work from anywhere, people these days have access through smart devices. Right. And what you can do there is you can have an agent on that smart device, generate your private key and then push out a public key. And so the private key never leaves your device. That's one of the most secure ways to, so if your >>SIM card gets hacked, you're not gonna be as at vulnerable >>Or as vulnerable. Well, the SIM card is another, you know, challenge associated with the, the older waste. But yeah. Yeah. >>So what do you guys think about the open source connection and, and they, they mentioned it up top don't bolt on security implying shift left, which is embedding it in like sneak companies, like sneak do that, right. Container oriented, a lot of Kubernetes kind of cloud native services. So I wanna get your reaction to that. And then also this reasoning angle, they brought up kind of a higher level AI reasoning decisions. So open source and this notion of AI reasoning >>Automation. Yeah. And, and you see more open source discussion happening, right. So you, you know, you have your building maintaining and vetting of the upstream open source code, which is critical. And so I think AWS talking about that today, they're certainly hitting on a nerve as, you know, open source continues to proliferate around the automated reasoning. I think that makes sense. You know, you want to provide guiderails and you want to provide roadmaps and you wanna have sort of that guidance as to okay. What's the, you know, a correlation analysis of different tools and products. And so I think that's gonna go over really well. >>Yeah. One of the other, you know, key points of what open source is, everybody's in a multi-cloud world, right? Yeah. And so they're worried about vendor lockin, they want an open source code base so that they don't experience that. >>Yeah. And they can move the code around and make sure it works well on each system. Dave and I were just talking about some of the dynamics around data control planes. So yeah. They mentioned encrypt everything, which is great. And I message, by the way, I love that one, but oh. And he mentioned data at rest. I'm like, what about data in flight? Didn't hear that one. So one of the things we're seeing with super cloud, and now multi-cloud kind of, as destinations of that, is that in digital transformation, customers are leaning into owning their data flows. >>Yeah. >>Independent of say the control plane aspects of what could come in. This is huge implications for security, where sharing data is huge. Even Schmidt on Steve said we have billions and billions of things happening that we see things that no one else else sees. So that implies, they're >>Sharing quad trillion, >>Trillion, 15 zeros trillion. Yeah. 15 >>Zeros, 15 zeros. Yeah. >>So that implies, they're sharing that or using that, pushing that into something. So sharing's huge with cyber security. So that implies open data, data flows. What do, how do you guys see this evolving? I know it's kind of emerging, but it's becoming a, a nuanced point that's critical to the architecture. >>Well, I, yeah, I think another way to look at that is the sharing of intelligence and some of the recent directives, you know, from the executive branch, making it easier for private companies to share data and intelligence, which I think strengthens the cyber community overall, >>Depending upon the supplier. Right? Yeah. It's either an aggregate level of intelligence that has been, you know, anonymized or it's specific intelligence for your environment that, you know, everybody's got a threat feed, maybe two or three, right. Yeah. But back to the encryption point, I mean, I was working for an encryption startup for a little while. Right after I left IBM. And the thing is that people are scared of it. Right. They're scared of key management and rotation. And so when you provide, >>Because they might lose the key. >>Exactly. Yeah. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Right. So that's when you have things like, you know, KMS services from Amazon and stuff, they really help out a lot and help people understand, okay, I'm not alone in this. >>Yeah. Crypto >>Owners, they call that hybrid, the hybrid key, they call the, what they call the, today. They call it the hybrid. >>What was that? The management service. Yeah. The hybrid. So hybrid HSM, correct. >>Yeah. What is that? What is that? I didn't, I didn't get that. I didn't understand what he meant by the hybrid post hybrid, post quantum key agreement. Right. That still notes >>Hybrid, post quantum key exchange, >>You know, AWS never made a product name that didn't have four words in it, >>But he did, but he did reference the, the new N algos. And I think I inferred that they were quantum proof or the claim it be. Yeah. And AWS was testing those. Correct. >>Yeah. >>So that was kind of interesting, but I wanna come back to identity for a second. Okay. So, so this idea of bringing traditional IAM and, and privilege access management together, is that a pipe dream, is that something that is actually gonna happen? What's the timeframe, what's your take on that? >>So, you know, there are aspects of privilege in every sort of identity back when, you know, it was only the back office that used computers for calculations, right? Then you were able to control how many people had access. There were two types of users, admins, and users, right? These days, everybody has some aspect of, >>It's a real spectrum, really >>Granular. You got the, you know, the C suite, the finance people, the DevOps, people, you know, even partners and whatever, they all need some sort of privileged access. And the, the term you hear so much is least privileged access. Right? Shut it down, control it. So, you know, in some of my research, I've been saying that vendors who are in the Pam space privilege access management space will probably be growing their suites, playing a bigger role, building out a stack because they have, you know, the, the expertise and the, and the perspective that says we should control this better. How do we do that? Right. And we've been seeing that recently, >>Is that a combination of old kind of antiquated systems meets for proprietary hyperscale or kind of like build your own? Cause I mean, Amazon, these guys, they Facebook, they all build their own stuff. >>Yes. They >>Do enterprises buy services from general purpose identity management systems. >>So as we were talking about, you know, knowing the past and whatever privileged access management used to be about compliance reporting. Yeah. Right. Just making sure that I knew who accessed what and could prove it. So I didn't fail in art. It wasn't >>A critical infrastructure item. >>No. And now these days, what it's transitioning into is much more risk management. Okay. I know what our risk is. I'm ahead of it. And the other thing in the Pam space was really session monitor. Right. Everybody wanted to watch every keystroke, every screen's scrape, all that kind of stuff. A lot of the new privilege access Mon management doesn't really require that it's nice to have feature. You kind of need it on the list, but is anybody really gonna implement it? That's the question. Right. And then, you know, if, if you do all that session monitor, does anybody ever go back and look at it? There's only so many hours in the day. >>How about passwordless access? You know? Right. I've heard people talk about that. Yeah. I mean, that's as a user, I can't wait, but >>It's somewhere we want to all go. Yeah. Right. We all want identity security to just disappear and be recognized when we log in. So the, the thing with password list is there's always a password somewhere and it's usually part of a registration, you know, action. I'm gonna register my device with a username password. And then beyond that, I can use my biometrics. Right. I wanna register my device and get a private key that I can put in my enclave. And I'll use that in the future. Maybe it's gotta touch ID. Maybe it doesn't. Right. So even though there's been a lot of progress made, it's not quote unquote, truly passwordless, there's a group industry standards group called Fido. Right. Which is fast identity online. And what they realized was these whole registration passwords. That's really a single point of failure. Cuz if I can't recover my device, I'm in trouble. Yeah. So they just did a, a new extension to sort of what they were doing, which provides you with much more of a, like an iCloud vault, right. That you can register that device in and other devices associated with that same iPad that you can >>Get you to it. If you >>Have to. Exactly. I had >>Another have all over the place here, but I, I want to ask about ransomware. It may not be your wheelhouse. Yeah. But back in the day, Jay, remember you used to cover tape. All the, all the backup guys now are talking about ransomware. AWS mentioned it today and they showed a bunch of best practices and things you can do air gaps. Wasn't one, one of 'em. Right. I was really surprised cuz that's all, every anybody ever talks about is air gaps. And a lot of times that air gaps that air gap could be a guess to the cloud. I guess I'm not sure. What are you guys seeing on ransomware >>Apps? You know, we've done a lot of great research around ransomware as a service and ransomware and, and you know, we just had some data come out recently that I think in terms of spending and, and spend and in as a result of the Ukraine, Russia war, that ransomware assessments rate number one. And so it's something that we encourage, you know, when we talk to vendors and in our services, in our publications that we write about taking advantage of those free strategic ransomware assessments, vulnerability assessments, right. As well, and then security and training ranked very highly as well. So we wanna make sure that all of these areas are being funded well to try and stay ahead of the curve. >>Yeah. I was surprised that not the air gaps on the list, that's all everybody >>Talks about. Well, you know, the, the old model for air gaping in the, the land days, the Noel days, you took your tapes home and put 'em in the sock drawer. >>Well, it's a form of air gap security and no one's gonna go there >>Clean. And then the internet came around >>Guys. Final question. I want to ask you guys, we kind zoom out. Great, great commentary by the way. Appreciate it. As the, we've seen this in many markets, a collection of tools emerge and then there's it's tool sprawl. Oh yeah. Right? Yeah. So cyber we're seeing trend now where Mon goes up on stage of all the E probably other vendors doing the same thing where they're organizing a platform on top of AWS to be this super platform. If you super cloud ability by building more platform thing. So we're saying there's a platform war going on, cuz customers don't want the complexity. Yeah. I got a tool, but it's actually making it more complex if I buy the other tool. So the tool sprawl becomes a problem. How do you guys see this? Do you guys see this platform emerging? I mean, tools won't go away, but they have to be >>Easier. Yeah. We do see a, a consolidation of functionality and services. And we've been seeing that, I think through a 20, 20 flat security survey that we released, that that was definitely a trend. And you know, that certainly happened for many companies over the last six to 24 months, I would say. And then platformization absolutely is something we talk 'em right. About all the time. So >>More M and a couple of years ago, I called the, the Amazon tool set in rector set. Yeah. Because it really required assembly. Yeah. And you see the emphasis on training here too, right? Yeah. You definitely need to go to AWS university to be competent. It >>Wasn't Lego blocks yet. No, it was a rector set. Very good distinction rules, you know, and, and you lose a few. It's >>True. Still too many tools. Right. You see, we need more consolidation. That's getting interesting because a lot of these companies have runway and you look, you look at sale point, its stock prices held up cuz of the Toma Bravo acquisition, but all the rest of the cyber stocks have been crushed. Yeah. You know, especially the high flyers, like a Senti, a one or a crowd strike, but yeah, just still M and a opportunity >>Itself. So platform wars. Okay. Final thoughts. What do you thinks happening next? What's what's your outlook for the, the next year or so? >>So in the, in the identity space, I'll talk about Phillip can cover cloud force. You know, it really is more consolidation and more adoption of things that are beyond simple SSO, right. It was, you know, just getting on the systems and now we really need to control what you're able to get to and who you are and do it as transparently as we possibly can because otherwise, you know, people are gonna lose productivity, right. They're not gonna be able to get to what they want. And that's what causes the C-suite to say, wait a minute, you know, DevOps, they want to update the product every day. Right. Make it better. Can they do that? Or did security get in the way people every once in a while I'll call security, the department of no, right? Yeah. Well, >>Yeah. They did it on stage. Yeah. They wanna be the department of yes, >>Exactly. And the department that creates additional value. If you look at what's going on with B to C or C IAM, consumer identity, that is all about opening up new direct channels and treating people like, you know, they're old friends, right. Not like you don't know 'em you have to challenge >>'em we always say you wanna be in the boat together. It sinks or not. Yeah. Right. Exactly. >>Phillip, >>Okay. What's your take? What's your outlook for the year? >>Yeah. I think, you know, something that we've been seeing as consolidation and integration, and so, you know, companies looking at from built time to run time investing in shift left infrastructure is code. And then also in the runtime detection makes perfect sense to have both the agent and agentless so that you're covering any of the gaps that might exist. >>Awesome. Jerry, Phillip, thanks for coming on the queue with IDC and sharing >>Your oh our pleasure perspective. >>Commentary, have any insights and outlook. Appreciate it. You bet. Thank you. Okay. We've got the great direction here from IDC analyst here on the queue. I'm John for a Dave, we're back more after this shirt break.

(bright upbeat music) >> Oh welcome here to theCUBE's coverage, continuing coverage of AnsibleFest 2021. It's a pleasure to have you with us today and also to join us today is Stephen Elliott, who is the Group Vice President of Management Software and DevOps at IDC. Stephen Good to see you today, thanks for being here on theCUBE. >> Hey thanks John, it's great to be here. >> You bet, good no, thank you again for the time. Well let's just jump right in, I know this is right in your sweet spot. You know, talk about IT automation. You've done a lot of research on this, but let's just talk about overall if you will. Give us that 30-foot perspective of what you're seeing in terms of your research, when we talk about IT automation these days, and configuration management. >> Sure, yeah. Yeah I know, I mean, it's been fascinating to watch with COVID the acceleration of the investments in automation across the board. And really our enterprise IT inquiry that we've taken, it really is just fascinating to see. Whether it's network automation, looking at self-service configuration, looking at provisioning, looking at a patch. I mean, you name the manual toil that enterprise IT organizations are, you know, looking to automate, and we're just finding tremendous investment themes across those areas. I think on top of that, there's been a lot of acceleration of this idea of DevOps, of driving automation across development and operations teams, and in certainly realizing that it's really hard to hire great people. And so we're seeing that companies are utilizing automation as a way to drive your career development, training across teams, and then certainly as a way to augment their teams to help these teams scale when they have difficulties hiring more and more staff. >> Yeah well let's take that first one, that last point first here, I think that's a certainly invaluable point, and that we've heard a lot about labor all over in all sectors right about, you know, finding the right talent for the task. So, in terms of this process, IT automation, and you're talking about maybe some companies being so much short handed or trying to fine-tune their labor needs or whatever. Tell me a little bit more about that in terms of automation and how this helps that process rather than hinders it. >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting, sometimes when IT executives talk about automation, they talk about staff replacement. And actually for the lean forward companies, for most companies that make these investments. That's not the case at all. It's actually an augmentation strategy where they realize, look it's really hard to find great talent. We have an opportunity to take the talent we have, apply new skills, look at automation as a way to get existing teams more productive, as well as an opportunity to learn new skills across teams. You know, whether it's development, operations, site reliability engineering, IT ops, et cetera, networking, you know, we're seeing organizations have a much more impact, you know, much more impactful opportunity to do staff development. And so this helps with scale, it also just helps give organizations, you know, the opportunity to move people across teams, particularly if you've decided that there's one type of automation that you want to utilize, one type of configuration language. It makes things very interesting when you have, you know, an operations person who might want to become a site reliability engineer, or, you know, a DevOps team that understands they have to utilize automation, maybe they want to utilize it, you know, a common framework for that. So, we're seeing executives really look at this as, this isn't about staff replacement at all, it's actually quite the opposite. It's about retention, it's about career training and development, it's about, you know, being able to share staff across teams, and then certainly, you know, this whole notion of augmentation and increasing productivity have organizations realize that, you know, with these generally net new models, you know, containers, microservices, public cloud, DevOps, software defined infrastructure, you know, agile, all these different organizational constructs, and types of technology architectures are driving up complexity. So the ability to simplify that through automation, the ability to drive higher returns on investment through automated processes and workflows, you know, it's really striking a chord with executive teams. >> And this is obviously I think just part of this natural trend, right? As the complexity, the networks and operations has increased, finding efficiencies through automation, that's just kind of this natural flow. Has it been pande-- or how has it been pandemic driven to a certain respect then? You touched on that earlier with your first comments, but what have you seen let's say over the past year at how companies have been reacting to that environment into their business operations? >> Yeah, I know it's been interesting from the C-suite down particularly, where CEOs have really started to realize that often their business architecture is in fact their technology architecture. And the pandemic has forced the C-suite to change their customer engagement models more often than not. So many, you know, B2B companies now had to become B2C. And so, you know, many companies had to pull back, or scale back their operations in the case of, you know, hotel, lodging, airlines. Where they really had to realize, wow, you know, we've got to figure out something because, you know, we're not going to fill capacity. So, you had a lot of CEOs and CIOs recognize that their technology architecture in fact can help make these adjustments. And part of that is driving automated, you know, work streams, whether it's through, you know, new digital services, whether it's through, you know, faster provisioning of infrastructure for their DevOps and development application teams, whether it's driving higher levels of system reliability, which as we all know, you know, customers are pretty impatient. So if digital services aren't working, you're going to move on to something else pretty quickly and give, you know, a competitor, you know, revenue opportunity. So, I think a lot of those swim lane, you know, a lot of those tailwinds, I should say, have really struck a chord in the C-suite and has really driven investments that are driving, you know, core modernization, application modernization, customer engagement models, and business models that, you know, were around 24 months ago. We're finding that the focus on reliability of systems, you know, across the applications to involve systems and networks that are, you know, public-private are really, you know, having that transparency. These things are the foundation. You know, you think about building a house, these are foundational capabilities that from an operations perspective, from a development perspective have really helped shape a lot of the thinking and investment themes that the C-suite now, because COVID accelerated a lot of these modernization projects have really driven, you know, positive outcomes for. >> When you talk about impatience, there's also kind of a, I guess, a queasiness you might say, or some anxiety about any kind of change, you know, and as you're talking about these automated processes, and bringing the whole new realm of opportunity at the business. And so also introduces maybe some angst, I would think a little bit, or what are you telling and what do you see in clients? And what kind of advice are you giving them in terms of their IOT automation decisions and about deploying these really massive changes in some respects to how they conduct the business? >> Yeah I know it's a great question, and we get that quite often. What we advise are a couple of starting points. You know first and foremost, most organizations are automating something somewhere. And particularly with DevOps teams, development, SREs, operations, infrastructure platform teams, networking teams. You know, these teams have a lot of opportunity to automate their toil. And so you have to start somewhere. So pick a use case that, you know you can win, you can get great benefits and a high return on that investment. And as you sort of go through that at the team or departmental level, start then to think about what are additional processes, you know, across your peer group. You know, maybe you're a networking you should be talking to operations, maybe an Ops talking to the DevOps teams and development, et cetera. And really start to highlight some additional ways that you can utilize that singular platform and reach across, you know, your peer groups to drive your more integrated, more automated processes. And these are types of use cases that run the gamut. So from a development standpoint, these would be, you know application release, it would look at CICD, you know, pipeline deployments, et cetera. Of course, you know, manual, moving from manual automated testings, or hot button issue. But from an operational perspective, many of those processes interlock, right with provisioning, with security mechanisms and processes. And then of course, you know, the involvement of the network in terms of, you know, configuration, which is a common issue. So things like configuration, provisioning, self-service, you know, the interlock of security mechanisms. A lot of these are pretty common themes regardless of the team, you know, and regardless of the outcome that's, you know, required. So I think first and foremost, start small, but think big. Secondly think about a potential platform play as it relates to automation. The third piece is make sure you get the right peer groups involved and the key stakeholders. You know, this isn't something you just flip the switch and boom, you know, you're successful. This will take a little bit of time and it's impactful in terms of the team, impactful in terms of the processes and of course, you know, the technology. So having a strong leader and, you know, set of key stakeholders who can drive this to fruition, can really, you know, not only get great wins from the business perspective, but also really drive, you know, a continuous improvement model and drive that theme of automation, you know, particularly as it relates to agile and DevOps and site reliability engineering. It can really play an important role in helping scale out those successes that many of those teams are already sort of built. So it's the extension of the investment but at the same time, it just makes for, you know, a continual cycle of improvement opportunities for these teams to drive further automation across their particular processes. >> Well, this is obviously based on a lot of the AnsibleFest coverage, I talked about that off the, on the outset of the interview. And so let's just focus on Red Hat for a little bit here. First off, give me your take, give me your 2 cents on Red Hat in terms of, you know, how they're doing, and obviously some big announcements, you know, port works and then some on the Ansible Platform. So, first off give me a little idea on Red Hat, and then let's drill down to the news they're making on their announcements. >> Sure, yeah it's interesting, you know, Red Hat Ansible is continuously doing very well in the marketplace. Both from an adoption perspective, as well as just, you know, continuing to get more net new logos. In addition to that, you know, post the Red Hat IBM acquisition, IBM continues to take advantage of Ansible across its portfolio. So, you know, we're seeing further reach into the market into accounts that are both IBM and Red Hat related. I think another piece too, we've recently did some work around, you know, business value of Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform. And a lot of those customers really talked to us about this notion of, you know, starting small, but also thinking more broadly across what type of returns they could get from the platform as well as, you know, it's not just about cost reduction, right? It's really about cost containment, it's about acceleration of your pipelines, it's about driving higher levels of system reliability. So, the other thing we found our customers are really recognizing, it's a balance of business and technical metrics that they want to sort of choose to drive and measure their success. But also at the same point, it's a recognition on the part of Red Hat and their product and development teams they'd really listen to a lot of customers, gotten, you know, features in and really started to think about this breadth of how automation can support, not just operations, but development. You know, this idea of autonomous automation, you know, being able to empower different sets of personas or customers to drive, you know, faith and trust in a product to say, hey, we want to automate a particular piece of a process. And we're just going to, you know, build up the policy, inherently use the templates and boom turn it on and, you know, set it and forget it. So that, that's, you know, a coming wave where customers are starting to, you know, work with Red Hat and particularly the Ansible Platform to understand what does that mean? You know, how do we execute that? And then, you know, as we get more comfortable with turning on that more autonomous perspective, you know, how can we then spread that idea out to different teams? So, you know, we're seeing a lot of these themes and as we talk to customers, you know, hearing a lot of good feedback with regards to, you know, Red Hat and IBM taking advantage of the technology, as well as more importantly customers getting, you know, significant value and returns from the platform itself. >> Right, well Stephen, I appreciate the insights. Certainly it's an interesting future awaiting off course the world of IT automation, a lot more intelligence, right? A lot more autonomy, a lot more challenges, but I'm sure Red Hat is very much up to that. And thank you for being with us here today on theCUBE. >> Hey thank you John it great to be here. >> You bet, Stephen Elliot joining us from IDC talking about Red Hat and Ansible and we'll continue with more coverage a little bit later on theCUBE. Thanks for joining this segment with Stephen Elliott. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante. We're thrilled to welcome Carl Olofsen to theCUBE. Carl is a research vice president at IDC focused on data management. The long-time database analyst is the technologist and market observer. Carl, good to see you again. >> Thanks Dave. Glad to be here. >> All right. Let's let's get into it. Let's talk about, let's go right to the, to the source the open source database space. You know, how, what changes have you seen over the last couple of years in that marketplace? >> Well, this is a dynamic area and it's continuing to evolve. When we first saw the initial open source products like mysQl and PostgreSQL on the early days they were very limited in terms of functionality. They were espoused largely by sort of true believers. You know, people who said everything should be open source. And we saw that mainly they were being used for what I would call rather prosaic database applications. But as time has gone by they both of these products improve. Now there's one key difference, of course, which is a mySQL is company owned open source. So the IP belongs to Oracle corporation. Whereas PostgreSQL is community open source, which means that the IP belongs to the PostgreSQL community. And that can have a big difference in terms of things like licensing and so forth, which really matters now that we're coming into the cloud space because as open-source products moving into the cloud space the revenue model is based on subscriptions. And of course they are always based on subscription to open source cause you don't charge for the license. So what you charge for its support, but in the cloud what you can do is you can set up a database service, excuse me, a database service and then you charge for that service. And if it's open source or it's not open source that actually doesn't matter to the user. If you see what that I mean because they still are paying a subscription fee for a service and they get the service. The main difference between the two types is that if you're a commercial provider of PostgreSQL like enterprise DB, you don't have control over where it goes and you don't have control over the IP and how people use it in different ways. Whereas Oracle owns mySQL so they have a lot more control and they can do things to it on their own. They don't have to consult the community. Now there's also, non-relational open source including MongoDB. And as you may be aware, MongoDB has changed their license. So that it's not possible for third party to offer Mongo DB as a complete managed database service without paying a license fee to MongoDB for that. And that's because they own the IP too. And we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing. I have conversations with open source all the time and they are getting a little concerned that it has become possible for somebody to simply take their technology, make a lot of money off that. And no money goes back to the community. No money goes back to the IRS. It's a company it's just stays with the supplier. So I think, you know it'll be interesting to see how all this is over time. >> So you're suggesting that the Postgres model then is, is I guess I'll use the word cleaner. And so that feels like it's a it's a benefit or is it a two-edged sword kind of thing? I mean, you were saying before, you know a company controls the IP so they could do things without having to go to the community. So maybe they can do things faster. But at the other hand like you said, you get handcuffed. You think you're going to be able to get a, you know a managed service, but then all of a sudden you're not and the rules change midstream saying it, am I correct? That Postgres, the model is cleaner for the customer? >> Well, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends who are in the open source community don't even consider company owned open source to be true open source because the IP is controlled by a company, not by a community. >> Dave: Right >> So from that perspective certainly Postgres SQL is considered, I don't know if you want to use the word cleaner or more pure or something along those lines, but also because of that the nature of community open source it can be used in many different ways. And so we see Postgres popping up all over the place sometimes partially and sometimes altogether, in other words, a service, a cloud service, we'll take a piece of Postgres and stick it on top of their own technology and offer it. And the reason they do that is they know there are a lot of developers out there who already know how to code for Postgres. So they are immediately first-class users of the service that they're offering. >> So, talk a little bit more about what you're seeing. You just mentioned a lot of different use cases. That's interesting. I didn't realize that was, that was happening. The, what are you seeing in terms of adoption in let's say the last 18, 24 months specific to Postgres? >> Yeah, we're seeing a fair amount of adoption in especially in the middle market. And of course there is rapid adoption in the tech sector. Now, why would that be? Well it's because they have armies of technologists. Who know how to program this stuff. You know, when you, you know, a lot of them will use PostgreSQL without a contract without a support contract, they'll just support themselves. And they can do that because they have the technicians who are capable of doing it. Most regular businesses can't do that. They don't have the staff so they need that support contract. And so that's where a company like enterpriseDB comes. I mentioned them only because they're the leading supplier Postgres to all their other suppliers. >> I was talking to Josh Burgers, red hat and he was, you know, he had just come off a Cubacon and he was explaining kind of what's happening in that community. Big focus of course on security and the whole, you know, so-called shift left. We were having a good discussion about, you know when does it make sense to use, you know Postgres in a container environment should you use Postgres and Kubernetes and he sort of suggested that things have rapidly evolved. There's still, you know, considerations but what are you seeing in terms of the adoption of microservices architectures containers, generally Kubernetes how has that affected the use of things like postsgres? >> So those are all different things or need to be kind of custody. >> Pick your favorite. >> They're related then. So microservices, the microservice concept is that you take an application break it up into little pieces and each one becomes a microservice that's invoked through an API. And then you have this whole structure API system that you use to drive the application and they run. They typically, they run in containers usually Kubernetes govern containers but the reason you do this and this is basically a efficiency because especially in the cloud, you want only to pay for what you use. So when you're running a microservice based application. Applications have lots of little pieces when something needs to be done, microservice fires up it does the thing that needs to be done. It goes away. You only pay for that fraction of a second that the microservice is running. Whereas in a conventional application you load this big heavyweight application. It does stop. It sets some weights with things and does more stuff and sits and waits for things. And you pay for compute for that entire period. So it's much more cost effective to use a microservices application. The thing is that microservice, the concept of microservices is based on the idea that the code is stateless but database code isn't stateless cause it has its attraction to the database which is the ultimate kind of like stateful environment right? So it's a tricky business. Most database technologies that are claimed to be container-based actually run in containers the way they run in servers. In other words, they're not microservice-based they do run in containers. And the reason they're doing that is for portability so that you can deploy them anywhere and you can move them around. But you know deploying a microservice based database is, well, it's it's a big technical project. I mean, that is hard to do. >> Right and so talk about, I mean again we're talking to Josh it was clear that that Kubernetes has evolved, you know quite rapidly at the same time there were cautions. In other words, he would say I think suggested things like, you know, there were known at one point, there were known, you know flaws and known bugs that ship the code that's been been remediated or moderated in terms of that practice but still there's there's considerations just in terms of the frequency of updates. I think he gave the example of when was the last time you know, JVM got, you know, overhauled. And so what kind of considerations should customers think about when considering them, they want the Kubernetes they want the flexibility and the agility but at the same time, if they're going to put it production, they've got to be careful, right? >> Yeah, I think you need to make sure you're using you're using functions that are well-established, you know you wouldn't want to put something into production that's new. They say, oh, here's a new, here's a new operation. Let's try that. And then, you know, you get in trouble. So you want to deal conservative that way you know, Kubernetes is open-source so and the updates and the testing and all that follows a rather slow formal process, you know from the time that the submission comes in to the time that it goes out, whereas you mentioned JVMs JV, but it was owned by Oracle. And so JVMs are managed like products. Now there's a whole sort of legal thing I don't want to get into it as to whether it's legal. They claim it's not libero third parties to build JVMs without paying a licensing. I don't want to talk about that, but it's based on a very state that has a very stable base, you know whereas this area of Kubernetes and govern containers is still rapidly evolving but this is like any technology, right? I mean, when you, if you're going to commit your enterprise to functions that run on an emerging technology then you are accepting some risk. You know, that there's no question about it. >> So we talked about the cloud earlier and the whole trend toward managed services. I mean, how does that specifically apply to Postgres? You can kind of imagine like a sidecar, a little bit of Postgres mixed in with, you know, other services. So what do you see and what do you, what's your telescope say in terms of the the Postgres adoption cloud? How do you see that progressing? >> I think there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential there. I think we are nowhere near the option that it should be able to achieve. I say that because for one thing, even though we analyze the future at IDC, that doesn't mean we actually know the future. So I can't say what its adoption will be but I can say that there's a lot of potential there. There's a tremendous number of Postgres developers out there. So there's a huge potential for adoption. And especially in cloud adoption, the main thing that would help that is independent. And I know that enterpriseDB has one independent a managed cloud service. So I think they do. >> Yeah I think so. >> But you know, why do I say that? I say that because alternatives these days there are some small companies that maybe they'll survive and maybe they won't, but that, you know, do you want to get involved with them or the cloud platform providers, but if you use their Postgres you're locked into that cloud platform. You know, if you use Amazon, go press on RDS, right? You're not, you become quickly locked in because you're starting using all the AWS tools that surround it to build and manage your application. And then you can't move. If you see what I mean. >> Dave: Yeah . >> They have have an RDS labor Aurora, and this is actually one of the things that it's really just a thin layer of Postgres interaction code underneath Aurora is their own product. so that's an even deeper level of commitment. >> So what has to happen for, so obviously cloud, you know, big trend. So the Postgres community then adopts the code base for the cloud. Obviously EDB has, you know hundreds of developers contributing to that, but so what does that mean to be able to run in the cloud? Is that making it cloud native? Is that extensions? Is it, you know, what technically has to occur and what has occurred and how mature is it? >> Well, so smaller user organizations are able to migrate fairly quickly cloud because most of their applications are you know, commercially purchased. They're like factories applications. When they move to the cloud, they get the SAS one and often the SAS equivalent runs on Postgres. So that's just fine. Larger enterprises are a real mess. If you've ever been in a large enterprise data center you know what I'm talking about? It's just, there's just servers and storage everywhere. There's, all these applications, databases connections. They are not moving to the cloud anytime soon. But what they are doing is setting up things like private cloud environments and applying in there. And this is a place where if you're thinking about moving to something like a Postgres you know most of these enterprises use the big commercial databases. Oracle SQLserver DB two and so forth. If you're thinking of moving from that to a a PostgreSQL development say, then the smart thing to do would be first to do all your work in the private cloud where you'd have complete control over the environment. It also makes sense still to have a commercial support contract from a vendor that you trust, because I've said this again, unless you are, you know, Cisco or somebody, you know, some super tech company that's got all the technicians you need to do the work. You really don't want to take on that level of risk. If you see that, I mean. Another advantage to working with a supplier, a support supplier, especially if you have a close, intimate relationship is they will speed your security patches on a regular basis which is really important these days, because data security is as you know, a growing concern all over the place. >> So let's stay on the skillsets for a minute. Where do you see the gaps within enterprises? What kind of expertise you mentioned, you know support contracts, what are the types of things that a customer should look for in terms of the the expertise to apply to supporting Postgres databases? >> Well, obviously you want them to do the basics that any software company does, right? You want them to provide you with regular updates and binary form that you can load and, you know test and run. You want to have the you know, 24 hour hotline you know, telephone support, all that kind of thing. I think it's also important to have a solid ability on the part of the vendor that you're working with to provide you with advice and counseling as you, especially, if you're migrating from another technology, help your people convert from what they were using to what they're going to be using. So those are all aspects that I would look for in a vendor for supporting a product like PostgreSQL. >> When you think about the migration to the cloud, you know of course Amazon talks a lot about cloud migration. They have a lot of tooling associated with that. >> Carl: Right. >> But when you step back and look at it it did to a point earlier, I mean a lot of the hardcore mission, critical stuff isn't going to move it, hasn't moved, but a lot of the fat middle, you know, is, are good candidates for it. >> Carl: Right. >> How do you think about that? And how do you look at that? I mean, obviously Oracle is trying to shove everything into OCI and they're, you know, they're all in because they realized that could make a lot of money doing that. But what do you, what are the sort of parameters that we should think about when considering that kind of migration, moving a legacy database into the cloud? >> Well, it has to be done piecemeal. You're not going to be able to do it all at once. You know, if you have hundreds of applications, you're not just you don't even want to, you know, it's a good time to take you into it. And what you've got running, ask yourself are these applications really serving the business interests today and will they in the future or is this a good time to maybe consider something else? Even if you have a packaged application, there might be one that is more aligned with your future goals. So it's important to do that. Look at your data integration, try to simplify it. You know, most data integration that most companies has done piecemeal project by project. They don't reference each other. So you have this chaos of ETL jobs and transformation rules and things like that that are just, you know, even difficult to manage. Now, just forget about any kind of migration or transformation considerations, just trying to run it now is becoming increasingly difficult. You know, maybe you want to change your strategy for doing data integration. Maybe you want to consolidate you want to put more data in one database. I'm not an advocate of the idea that you can put all application data in one database by the way, we know from bitter experience that doesn't work, but we can be rational about the kinds of databases that we use and how they sit together. >> Well, I mean, you've been following this for a long time and you saw the sort of rise and fall of the big data meme. And you know, this idea that you can shove everything into a single place, have a single version of the truth. It's like, it's just never seemed to happen. >> Carl: Right. >> So, you know, Postgres has been around a long time. It's evolved. I mean, I remember when, you know, VMware's ascendancy and people are like, okay, should I, you know should I virtualize my Postgres database is your, you know similar conversations that we were having earlier about Kubernetes. You've seen the move to the cloud. We're going to have this conversation about the edge at some point in time. So what's your outlook for Postgres, the Postgres community and, you know database market overall? >> Well, I really think the future for database growth is in the cloud. That's what all the data we're looking at and the case that's what our recent surveys indicate. As I said before, the rate of change depends on the size of the enterprise. Smaller advices are moving rapidly, large enterprises much more slowly and cautiously for the very simple reason that it's a very complex proposition. And also in some cases, they're wondering if they can move certain data or will they be violating your some sort of regulatory constraint or contractual issue. So they need to deal with those things too. That's why the private cloud is the perfect place to get started and get technology all lined up storing your data center is still under your control no legal issues there, but you can start, you know converting your applications to micro-service architected applications running in containers. You can start replacing your database servers with ones that can run in a container environment and maybe in the future, maybe hope that in the future, some of those will actually also be able to run as microservices. I don't think it's impossible but it just involves programming the database server in a very different way than we've done in the past. But you do those things. You can do those things under your own control over time in your own dataset. And then you reach a point where you want to take the elements of your application environment and say, what pieces of this, can I move to the cloud without creating disruption and issues regarding things like data egress and latency from cloud to data center and that kind of thing. And prepare for that. And then you're doing the step wise and then you start converting in a stepwise manner. I think ultimately it just makes so much sense to be in the cloud that the cloud vendors have economies of scale. They can deploy large numbers of servers and storage systems to satisfy the needs of large numbers of customers and create, you know great considerable savings. Some of which of course becomes their profit which is what's due to them. And some of that comes back to the users. So that's what I expect. We're going to see. And oh gosh, I would say that starting from about three years from now the larger enterprises start making their move and then you'll really start to see changes in the numbers in terms of cloud and cloud revenue. >> Great stuff, Carl, thank you for that. So any cool research you're working on lately, how you're spending your your work time, anything you want to plug? >> Well, working a lot on just as these questions, you know cloud migration is a hot topic, another which is really sort of off the subject. And what we've been talking about is graph database which I've been doing a fair amount of research into. I think that's going to be really important in the coming years and really, you know working with my colleagues in a project called the future of intelligence which looks at all the different related elements not just database, data integration but artificial intelligence, data communications and so on and so forth and how they come together to create a more intelligent enterprise. And that's a major initiative that I see. It's one of the, we call the future of initiatives. >> Great, Carls, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE. It's great to have you, man. I appreciate it. >> Well, I enjoyed it. Now I have to do it again sometime. >> All right you got it. All right thank you everybody for watching theCUBEs. Continuous coverage of Postgres vision 21. This is Dave Vellante keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Ansible Fest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBEs, virtual coverage of Ansible Fest 2020. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, we're here virtual, we're not face to face obviously because of COVID. So we're doing a virtual event Ansible Fest coverage. We have Mary Johnston Turner, research Vice President of Cloud Management at IDC international data Corp. Mary great to see you, thanks for coming on for Ansible Fest 2020. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> So obviously Cloud Management, everything's Cloud native we're seeing that at VM world, we've got Re-invent coming up, Azure has got growth. The enterprises have gotten some religion on Cloud Native, COVID certainly is forcing that. What are you seeing from your research at IDC around the convergence of Cloud strategies. What's the data tell you, what's the research show? >> Well, obviously with COVID a lot of folks have pivoted or accelerated their move to the Cloud in many ways. And I think what's happening is that we're seeing many, many organizations recognizing they continue to have need for On-prem resources. They're building out edge, they've got remote work from home, they've got traditional VM workloads, They've got modern Cloud Native container-based workloads running On-Prem and in public Clouds and public Cloud services. So it's really kind of a striking world of connected Clouds is how I'm talking about it increasingly. And I think what that means from an operational perspective is that it's getting more and more challenging for organizations to maintain consistent configuration, stable APIs, security, compliance and conformance. And they're really starting to look at Automation as the way to deal with the increasing scale and velocity of change because that's one of the things that's happening. And I think COVID accelerated that is we've seen organizations stand up applications they never thought they were going to have to stand up and they not only stood them up very quickly, but then they continue to update them with great frequency often multiple times a day or a week. And and the infrastructure has had to pivot and the workloads have had to migrate. So it's really been a very challenging time for many organizations. And I think those that are coping the best with it are the ones who have been investing in Automation particularly Automation in CICD pipeline and code based environment. >> Yeah, you know, you're seeing the releases, obviously Automation has helped on the agile side, VMs and containers have been a great way to automate, how are customers looking at this? Because it seems to be Automation is like the first step towards everything as a service, right? So it's XAAS as it's says, as it's called in the industry. Services is ultimately the holy grail in all this because you get, when the Automation and services used to be Automation, Automation, Automation. Now you're hearing as a service, as a service, as a service as the top three priorities. So it seems to be a trajectory. How are customers getting first of all... Do you agree with that? And then how do customers think about this? Cause sometimes we're ahead of the customers. Automation is the first step. What's your take on this, and what are customers planning when it comes to Automation? Are they thinking as a service? What'd you hearing from the customers? >> Let's talk a little bit about what we mean by as a service. Cause that's a really interesting concept, right? And I've been hearing this conversation with folks as a service started a decade or more ago, taking things that particularly software that ran On-prem infrastructure or software. And putting it into share Data Centers where we could run Multi tenant Environments we could scale it, and each Cloud provider basically got that scale by investing in their own set of infrastructure Automation. So whether it was Azure or VMware or whoever, they build a whole repeatable, scalable environment that they could control. What's happening now is that we're seeing these control planes get stretched back to On-prem resources. And I think what's really happening is that the line about where does the thing physically have to run? Becomes more of a discussion around the physics of the matter, Latency, Data Volumes, transaction processing cost of installed equipment. And every organization is making its own choice about what's the right mix, in terms of where physically do things have to run, and how they want to manage them. But I think that we're starting to see a abstraction layer coming in between that. And a lot of that abstraction is Automation that's portable that can be applied across all these environments. And that can be used to standardize configurations, to maintain standard APIs, to deploy at very fast speed and consistency across all these different resources. And so Automation and the related management layer to me is that new abstraction layer that actually is going to allow most enterprises to stop worrying quite so much about (chuckles) what kind of as a service am I buying? And focus more on the economics and the performance and the physics of the infrastructure, and then maintain consistency with highly Automated, Repeatable, Programmable Style Environments that are consistent across all these different platforms. >> Yeah, that's a great point. It's great insight, I love that. It's almost, as you can almost visualize the boardroom. We need to change our business model as a service. Go do it, climb that hill, get it done, what are you talking about? What you're trying to manage workloads inside our enterprise and outside as they started looking at the workload aspect of it, it's not trivial to just say it, right? So your containers has barely filled the void here. How are customers and how are people getting started with this initial building block of saying okay, do we just containerize it? Cause that's another hand waving activity which has a lot of traction. Also you put some containers has got some goodness to it, are many people getting started with solving this problem? And what are some of the roadblocks of just managing these workloads inside and outside the enterprise? >> Well, again I think, yeah many organizations are still in the early stages of working with containers. Right now I think our research shows that maybe five to 10% of applications have been containerized. And that's a mix of lift and shift of traditional workloads as well as net new Cloud Native. Over the next couple of years almost enterprise has tell us to think a third of their workloads could be containerized. So it's ramping very, very quickly. Again, I think that the goal for many organizations is certainly containers allow for faster development, very supportive microservices, but increasingly it's also about portability. I talk to many organizations that say, yeah, one of the reasons I'm moving, even traditional workloads into containers is so that I have that flexibility. And again, they're trying to get away from the tight coupling of workloads to physical resources and saying I'm going to make those choices, but they might change over time or I might need to go what happens. I have to scale much faster than I ever thought. I'm never going to be able to do that my own data center, I'm going to go to the Cloud. So I think that we're seeing increasing investments in, Kubernetes and containers to promote more rapid scaling and increased business agility. And again, I think that means that organizations are looking for those workloads to run across a whole set of environments, geographies, physical locations, edge. And so they're investing in platforms and they count on Automation to help them do that. >> So your point here is that in five, 10% that's a lot of growth opportunity. So containers is actually happening now so you starting to see that progression. So that's great insight. So I've got to ask you on the COVID impact, that's certainly changed some orientation because hey, this project let's double down on this is a tailwind for us, work from home this new environment and these projects, maybe we want to wait on those, how do we come out of COVID? Some people have been saying, some spending in some areas are increasing, some are not, how are customers spending money on infrastructure with COVID impact? What are you seeing from the numbers? >> Well, that's a great question, and I do see one of the major things we do is track IT markets and spending and purchasing around the world. And as you might expect, if you go back to the early part of the year, there was a very rapid shift to Cloud, particularly to support work from home. And obviously there was a lot of investment in virtual desktops and remote work kinds of and collaboration very early on. But now that we're sort of maturing a little bit and moving into more of ongoing recovery resiliency sort of phase, we continue to see very strong spending on Cloud. I think overall it's accelerated this move to more connected environments. Many of the new initiatives are being built and deployed in Cloud environments. But again, we're not seeing a Whole Hog exit from On-prem resources. The other thing is Edge. We're seeing a lot of growth on Edge, both again there's sort of work from home, but also more remote monitoring, more support for all kinds of IOT and remote work environments, whether it's Lab Testing or Data Analysis or Contact Tracing. I mean, there's just so many different use cases. >> I'm going to ask you about Ansible and Red Hat. I see you've been following Ansible since the acquisition by Red Hat. How do you think they're doing Visa Vie the market, their competitors that have also been acquired? What's your take on their performance, their transition, their transformation? >> Well, this infrastructure is code or Automation is code market has really matured a lot over the last 10 or more years. And I think the Ansible acquisition was about five years ago now. I think we've moved from just focusing on trying to build elegant Automation languages, which certainly was an early initiative. Ansible offered one of the earlier human readable Python based approaches as opposed to more challenging programming languages that some of the earlier solutions had. But I think what's been really interesting to me over the last couple years with Red Hat is just what a great job they've done in promoting the community and building out that ecosystem, because at the end of the day the value of any of these infrastructures code solutions is how much they promote the connectivity across networks, Clouds, servers, security, and do that in a consistent, scalable way. And I think that's what really is going to matter going forward. And then that's probably why you've seen a range of acquisitions in this market over the last couple of years, is that as a standalone entity, it's hard to build those really robust ecosystems, and to do the analytics and the curation and the support at large scale. So it kind of makes sense as these things mature that they become fun homes with larger organizations that can put all that value around it. >> That's great commentary on the infrastructure as code, I totally agree. You can't go wrong by building abstraction layers and making things more agile. I want to get your take on some announcements that are going on here and get your thoughts on your perspective. Obviously they released with the private Automation hub and a bunch of other great stuff. I mean, bringing Automation, Kubernetes, and series of new features to the platform together, obviously continuation of their mission. But one of the things when I talked to the engineers is I say, what's the top three things, Ansible Fest, legal collections, collections, collections, so you start to see this movement around collections and the platform. The other thing is, it's a tool market and everyone's got tools we need a platform. So it's a classic tools. As you saw that in big data other areas where need start getting into platform, and you need management and orchestration you need Automation, services. What's your perspective on these announcements? Have they been investing aggressively? What does it mean? What's your take? And what does it mean? >> Yeah, I would agree that Red Hat has continued to invest very aggressively in Red Hat and in Ansible over the last few years. What's really interesting is if you go back a couple years, we had ASML engine, which included periodic, maybe every quarter or even longer than that distributions that pretty much all Ansible code got shipped on. And then we had tower which provided an API and a way to do some audit and logging and integration with source control. And that was great, but it didn't move fast enough. And we just got done talking about how everything's accelerated and everything's now connected Clouds. And I think a lot of what the Red Hat has done is really, approach the architecture for scale and ecosystem for scale. And so the collections have been really important because they provide a framework to not only validate and curate content but also to help customers navigate it and can quickly find the best content for their use cases. And also for the partners to engage, there's I think it's 50 plus collections now that are focused on partner content. And so it's I think it's really provided an environment where the ecosystem can grow, where customers can get the support that they need. And then with the Automation hub and the ability to support really robust source control and distribution. And again, it's promoting this idea of an Automation environment that can scale not only within a data center, but really across these connected environments. >> Great stuff. I want to get your thoughts cause I want to define and understand what Red Hat and Ansible, when they talk about curated content, which includes support for open shifts, versus pulling content from the community. I hear content I'm like, oh, content is that a video? Is that like, what is content? So can you explain what they mean when they say they're currently building out, aggressively building curated content and this idea of what does content mean? Is it content, is it code? >> Yeah, I think any of these Automation as code environments. You really have a set of building blocks that in the Ansible framework would be be modules and playbooks and roles. And those are relatively small stable pieces of code, much of it is actually written by third parties or folks in the community to do a very specific task. And then what the Ansible platform is really great at is integrating those modules and playbooks and roles to create much more robust Automations and to give folks a starting point, and ability to do, rather than having to code everything from scratch to really kind of pull together things that have been validated have been tested, get security updates when they need it that kind of thing. And so the customers can focus on essentially changing these things together and customizing them for their own environment as opposed to having to write all the code from step one. >> So content means what, in this context, what does content mean for them? >> It's Automation building blocks. It's code, it's small amounts of code that do very specific things (chuckles) and in a collections environment, it's tagged, it's tested, it's supported. >> It's not a research report like of a Cube video, it's like code, it's not content. >> Yeah, I know. But again, this is Automation as code, right? So it it's pieces of code that rather than needing an expert who understands everything about how a particular device or system works, you've got reusable pieces of code that can be integrated together, customized and run on a repeatable, scalable basis. And if they need to be updated cause an API changes or something, there's a chain that goes back to the the vendors who, again are part of the ecosystem and then there's a validation and testing. So that by the time it goes back into the collections, the customers can have some confidence that when they pull it down, it's not going to break their whole environment. Whereas in a pure community supported model, the contents made by the community, may be beautiful, but you don't know, and you could have five submissions that kind of do the same thing. How do you know what's going to work and what's going to be stable? So it's a lot of helping organizations get Automation faster in a more stable environment. >> We can certainly follow up on this train cause one of things I've been digging into is this idea of, open source and contribution, integrations are huge. The collections to me is super important because when we start thinking about integration that's one of Cloud native, supposedly strength is to be horizontally scalable, integrated, building abstraction layers as you had pointed out. So I've got to ask you with respect to open source. I was just talking with a bunch of founders yesterday here in Silicon Valley around as Cloud scales and certainly you seeing snowflake build on top of AWS. I mean, that's an amazing success story. You're starting to see these new innovations where the Cloud scale providers are providing great value propositions and the role open source is trying to keep pace. And so I got to ask you is still open source, let me say I believe it's important, but how does open source maintain its relevance as Cloud scale goes on? Because that's going to force Automation to go faster. Okay, and you got the major Cloud vendors promoting their own Cloud platforms. Yet you got the innovation of startups and companies. Your enterprises are starting to act like startups as container starts to get through this lift and shift phase. You'll see innovation coming from enterprises as well as startups. So you start to see this notion bring real value on top of these Clouds. What's your take on all this? >> Well, I think open source and the communities continue to be very, very important, particularly at the infrastructure layer, because to get all this innovation that you're talking about, you act, if you believe you've got a connected environment where folks are going to have different footprints and, and probably, you know, more than one public Cloud set of resources, it's only going to, the value is only going to be delivered if the workloads are portable, they're stable, they can be integrated, they can be secure. And so I think that the open source communities have become, you know, continue to be an incredibly important as a way to get industry alignment and shared innovation on the, on the platform and infrastructure and operational levels. And I think that that's, you know, going to be, be something that we're going to see for a long time. >> Well Mary, I really appreciate your insights, I got one final question, but I'll just give you a plug for the folks watching, check out Mary's work at IDC, really cutting edge and super important as Cloud management really is at the heart of all the, whether it's multicloud, on-premise hybrid or full Cloud lift and shift or Cloud native, management plays a huge important role right now. That's where the action is. You looking at the container growth as Mary you pointed out is great. So I have to ask you what comes next. What do you think management will do relative to Cloud management, as it evolves in these priority environments around Cloud, around on-premise as the operations start to move along, containers are critical. You talked about the growth is only five, 10%, a lot of headroom there. How is management going to evolve? >> Well, again, I think a lot of it is going to be is everything has to move faster. And that means that Automation actually becomes more and more important, but we're going to have to move from Automation at human speed to Automation at container and Cloud speed. And that means a lot is going to have to be driven by AI and ML analytics that can and observability solutions. So I think that that's going to be the next way is taking these, you know, very diverse sources of, of log and metrics and application traces and performance and end user experience and all these different things that tell us, how is the application actually running and how is the infrastructure behaving? And then putting together an analytics and Automation layer that can be a very autonomous. We have at IDC for doing a lot of research on the future of digital infrastructure. And this is a really fundamental tenant of what we believe is that autonomous operations is the future for a Cloud and IT. >> Final point for our friends out there and your friends out there watching who some are on the cutting edge, riding the big wave of Cloud native, they're at Cube calm, they're digging in, they're at service meshes, Kubernetes containers, you name it. And for the folks who have just been kind of grinding it out, an it operations, holding down the Fort, running the networks, running all the apps. What advice do you give the IT skillset friends out there that are watching. What should they be doing? What's your advice to them, Mary? >> Well, you know, we're going to continue to see the convergence of, of virtualized and container based infrastructure operations. So I think anyone out there that is in those sorts of roles really needs to be getting comfortable with programmatic code driven Automation and, and figuring out how to think about operations from more of a policy and scale scalability, point of view. Increasingly, you know, if you believe what I just said about the role of analytics driving Automation, it's going to have to be based on something, right? There's going to have to be rules. There's going to have to be policies is going to have to be, you know, configuration standards. And so kind of making that shift to not thinking so much about, you know, the one off lovingly handcrafted, handcrafted environment, thinking about how do we scale, how do we program it and starting to get comfort with, with some of these tools, like an Ansible, which is designed to be pretty accessible by folks with a large range of skillsets, it's human readable, it's Python based. You don't have to be a computer science major to be able to get started with it. So I think that that's what many folks have to do is start to think about expanding their skill sets to operate at even greater scale and speed. >> Mary, thanks so much for your time. Mary Johnston Turner, Vice President of Research at Cloud for Cloud management at IDC for the Ansible Fest virtual. I'm John Ferrier with theCUBE for cube coverage, cube virtual coverage of Ansible Fest, 2020 virtual. Thanks for watching.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hi I'm Stu min a man and welcome to this special cube conversation over helping cover the second generation of the VMware cloud on Dell EMC happy to welcome to the program brick Villiers who's the vice president of data center and cloud with IDC not too far from me physically even the worse in today's day and age we're all practicing social distance Oh Rick great to see you thanks so much for joining no thanks - pleasure to be here looking forward to a great conversation all right so Rick you know usually this time of year you and I see other more than we their families because we're traveling a both circuit going to the analyst events like and one of the topics we spent a lot of time talking about over the years is of course cloud you know VMware's partnership with Amazon is of course one that the entire industry but notice of and the relationship of Amazon VMware and Dell is an interesting one what we're talking about today though is the VMware cloud or in the shorthand VM see on L EMC and it's the second generation of this product help us understand kind of where this fits in the categorization and the research that you in an IDC like that yes - it's an interesting question it's one that we've actually been thinking about for several years now and it had to do with some early conversations we were having back then with companies about their private cloud environment they've been deploying those for the last four or five years we were seeing them up on a sort of refresh cycle and when he started asking about how satisfied they'd been with those and where they wanted to use them and we got back some very consistent feedback saying that they had had some problems with their first generation of their private cloud environment and that they needed to address those and one of them was a consistency problem is that you know every private cloud they built whether they build it themselves or whether they looked at a host of private cloud provider even in their own company we're different different technologies different and figure different sets of tools and that was a big problem for them the second big problem they'd run into was basically every time there's a new technology or an upgrade or a fix we basically can't adopt it quickly we can't use it till the next refresh cycle so we're always behind we're playing catch-up and and neither one of those things really aligned with what they felt cloud should be and what they've been seeing in their public cloud environment and so when we looked at that and we started looking at the feedback a boat was coming on or we realized that we were about to see a new generation of private cloud environment but we said but this will be different not just because of new technology but it'll be actually different use cases and a different approach and the first thing is we said its first of all these are it's not so much a private cloud is that they dedicated cloud it's it's I have resources that are dedicated to a business or a service an application I want to get done and and I want to basically operate that just like all those other cloud and then the second thing is is they said and by the way this is less and less about a general-purpose new data center and we just run my data center same way it's I want this to be a platform for creating new services that I want to deliver in a location a factory a hospital you know a city block whatever that is and and so we brought those together and we started looking at those and we said well this is really going to lead to the emergence of a whole new product class which we started calling local cloud as a SERP because it reflected both of those things it says like it is no longer assembling piece parts but it was consuming these resources and as a service method with all the benefits of agility and responsiveness and continual enhancement that come with that but it was also about I need to be able to put these in new location not just in my corporate data center but out where I'm trying to do new businesses and services in and that's what led us to start talking about this in this new product category of local cloud as a service and then we started seeing solutions that came out on the market that fit very much with this idea okay yeah Rick really interesting because you're right you know private cloud is a conversation we've been having in the industry for about a dozen years and one of the biggest challenges is you talk to 100 customers and you get a hundred and fifty definitions of what a private cloud is so if I hear you right local cloud is in some ways it's an extension of what we see in the public cloud so you know I think back it used to be hey can I get this same stack in both place we saw companies like you know IBM and Oracle and even VMware thing you know how can I match what you have in your data center there as opposed to you know as your stack AWS outposts we're saying hey we're actually going to give you the you know the same you know same hardware you know same software and as a service as you said yeah you talked about also some of those new locations so you know without getting into too much depth so it sounds like and I've looked a little bit of research there there is the data center piece and then really emerging there's the potential for edge use cases do I see that right is just just like you know we've got kind of the hyper scalars we've the data center edge is pulling on everything so yeah your city you're saying edge doesn't kill the cloud and everything before it it's gonna just be another op in oh absolutely I mean for us this is it's more of an extension of the cloud environment and by that we also said one of the other critical things in this is it's it changes if you think about new applications that you're trying to create whether it's in the public cloud or whether one of these local cloud environments they're being built on a cloud native architecture and that's one of the other key elements of this solution is these become the platforms that allow enterprises to bring things like containers and service designs and this sort of you know DevOps driven application development model into both the corporate data centers which absolutely this these solutions like but also again to extend it out to places where in the past you didn't have a lot of IT you didn't have a lot of compute and storage but now if you're trying to do things like real-time monitoring for you know in the world we're living in today oh and air you know can I use machine vision to track the health of the people going through the airport I need to deliver a cloud service essentially at that Airport I have latency issues I have availability issues I can't do it from a data center you know sitting out halfway across the country it has to be at the airport but I need to be able to basically have a reliable consistent cloud environment but now I can put in 10 airports or 100 or so it's that combination of location but consistency everywhere I put it that's part of what this this new stories about and and I think that's the other big part of the message here excellent Rick so one of the things I we get into the numbers and talk specifically about the VMware solution how do customers get from where they are who these type of solutions you know one of the discussions around private cloud is could I upgrade what I have moved to these environment and I think about many of the solutions that are extending public clouds it it it doesn't necessarily mesh into what I have today so it did how do we get from you know the environments that I have today you know and how do these local cloud as a services fit in yeah so this is this is actually one of the interesting use cases for this is one way you can use this is to deploy this in your corporate data set where you but yet it's creating that public cloud environment you can do a lift and shift and leverage this as a way to MA I guess you would say now it's shift and lift because now you can bring it into this local cloud as a service platform and still run it locally get those kind of things tested and I wait and as you decide which functions you may want to move offload to a public cloud or add dr you can use this platform to do that but i think there's there's more to it than that the the other part of of what we talk about here is is and I think it's something that that needs to be addressed as something that helps people do this faster is these new systems while very modern very consistent there is a great value they like many of the more modern merged systems that are coming on the market have very different power profiles very different network requirements then what's in a lot of corporate data centers and that's one thing we've seen again and again when we've talked to people about deploying these is the technology's great the solutions great but you know I have to make sure I've got the right power and I've opened up the firewalls and all those things there one thing that I found interesting is we're starting to see companies say one way to remove that friction is you know there if there's a colocation facility near the customer site that has great power has great network connectivity you know I can use that place to now deliver this service in days instead of weeks because it's concentrated there you know it's a pure environment and I think that's one thing that's also helping with this shift is people can leverage those facilities in that activity to basically make this migration a lot easier for companies when they want to when they want to transform their environment yeah really important points there Rick absolutely we you know we've been telling companies for years you need to understand what you're good at and what you're not and you know we're in concrete and managing power and bullying there's a handful of companies that are excellent at that most of the rest of you companies you suck at it so therefore if you can leverage other people that you can do that so when you say local it does not need to mean a piece of real estate that I own it could be you know that that spectrum of boosting or to the environment yeah all right let's get to the numbers Rick so we're gonna pull up a light here with some of your research you know for years we've been talking about you know the private cloud category is huge compared to public cloud because while public cloud is growing huge numbers compared to traditional IT it is small so let's take a look at the slides and talk us through what we're looking at here yeah so this is the thing part of it when we were talking about this forecast and we again we're looking at product like you know the VMware cloud on Dell you see and the alternative solutions out there is is for part of the you space which we've talked about whereas this is a the next-generation of the corporation private cloud with better connectivity and better consistency in some ways that's the easy activity but what you're doing is as we've said is I'm translate I'm transferring from a upfront capital expenditure to a 3-4 year subscription and so when we look at this and we started thinking about the forecast and what we're saying is what I've done is I've moved from you know an upfront spend in one year to spreading it out over three years and from a forecast standpoint that means in the early years while you may be deploying and lot of companies are gonna be leveraging these and they're in their private cloud and their data centers the revenue stream to the provider in this case VMware and WMC or the group were talking about today streams over three years so the forecasts can look really big or grows very fast but that's because that subscription revenue keeps growing and growing so today when we've looked at you know comments some of the solutions that have been out there you brought up earlier you know the Rackspace and others as early versions of this but you know it's still relatively new these types of solutions have only really the market now for six months seven months so 2020 even without Co vid wasn't going to be some huge year one thing we see actually is that these types of solutions are even more attractive in the world we're living in because they give you that promise of rapid deployment and scale but absolutely by 2022 you know that accumulated revenue stream that subscription scream both for enterprise and for a growing number of edge use cases we're talking you know revenues up and around the five seven billion dollar range and that only accelerates one thing that's not really showing in here yet but it's also part of this local conversation is is the 5g build-out in the extension and use of these local clouds in connection with the 5g environment and that's part of this edge use case too so so absolutely if you want to see you know total revenue streams here over you know in 2022 as we talked about here just under five billion dollars going from you know a half a billion dollars this year but even the biggest growth in the business expansion is after that and why we think this is is the value why why people are willing to pay for this is because of that value of consistency continuous enhancements and a platform for innovation that's what makes this all come together and why we think this is gonna be such a big and important market in the coming years yeah absolutely and you know has an impact on your job rake instead of counting all that is in the growth there you're you're now talking to Wall Street about you know oh well Dell might have shipped X number of boxes but they can't recognize it over this period of time so let's talk about the customers though how does a solution like this you know what do you see it affecting their adoption of what they're doing with their overall you know I mean this is the case specifically for VMware cloud on Delhi see is you know without a doubt as we all know that VMware and and is is a critical part of most corporations IT environments today many of their applications are there they've invested great amounts of resources and expertise and understanding how to operate and drive those environments and and one thing this does is again it gives them that ability to leverage those investments and the things they've done there for application design and that's to recovery and and and sort of the AB neo management of their IT environment but now again use it in this as a service way so it's definitely one of the big benefits we see is it helps people make that transition removing the friction of that modernization for a lot of companies if they want to move to a cloud environment that's step one I think that's value one I would say and point out you know VMware also now is being very you know focused on making sure that it's also a strong platform for these next-generation cloud native development environment and that's been added to these platforms and will absolutely expect to see this and all the VMware cloud solution so that's another great part of this is there again preserving that ability for their customers who both do better with their existing environment and also have a platform for going forward with these new systems you know for us the big thing is is a continual focus by VMware and Dell as partners to make sure that it can scale its ability to operate these environments one of the things they're making a commitment to to their customers we are going to make these ingenuously available available on very good short notice and that they continually improve and that's gonna take a lot of back-end investment because really VMware has to now centrally manage not a hundred or a thousand potentially tens of thousands of system for many customers around the world that's the real next big step here we see is when you can add that fleet management ability so the company has the ability to say I can now deploy some great new service in one place a hundred places a thousand places while still being secure while still offering my end users you know the availability and the latency that they want that's a very powerful thing that companies are gonna be able to offer in the coming years alright well Rick fillers really important items they're really glad you brought up you know about a modern application about their data of course you know the inverse partner Dell has a strong legacy in data you know some pcs track you know the explosive growth of that or you know more than a decade now so thanks a lot and I think you captured that perfectly the data control part of this is is critical all right lots more from the VMware cloud on Dell EMC I'm sue minimun and thank you for watch the cube [Music]

>>Live from Denver, Colorado. It's the cube covering com vault go 2019 brought to you by Combolt. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of day one of convo go and 19 from Colorado. I'm Lisa Martin with Stu minimum and we have a cube alumni back with us. Arch, not van Venkatraman. You are the research manager for storage and data center for IDC. Welcome back. Thank you. Always a pleasure. Likewise, so here we are. Day one of con BOGO, lots of stuff. Nutrition's I stopped coming out in the last day and a half or so, but also lots of momentum that really kind of the dust kicked up when Sanjay Mirchandani took over the home from Bob hammer just about nine months ago. You've been covering combo for about three years. Just love to get your perspective on the last three years and what you've seen particularly in the last nine months. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I've been tracking them for three years and they've been slowly making that pivot to the cloud world to changing how they're pricing to, you know, to really break free from that perception that they're very traditional, they're very cumbersome, they're expensive, they're trying to break through that and hiring Sanjay was kind of validation that Hey we are committed to the future and Sanjay comes from this very agile DevOps seed, open sores, containerized property worlds. >>So he, he is new culture and Sandra came in and he started, I think he started making a lot more changes. We saw that their journey to the cloud was a lot more accelerated and they're starting to talk this new language that is attracting developers. So they talk about cloud native technologies. They're talking about database and data as the bottleneck in development life cycle, which is all new music to develop us ears. And then that means you're going to bring in data management, which is a huge issue right to the developer strategy, right to the boardroom strategy. That's where it needs to be because data is actually at the heart of what companies are doing. And we keep talking about speed of fins, speed of development and speed of applications. I think it's time we start talking about speed of intelligence and speed of insights because that's what's going to give companies a competitive difference. >>And that's what Sanjay brought in in the last nine months. And I was tracking the Hedwig acquisition as well and a lot of companies, a lot of people who I spoke to here were extremely excited about what Hedwig brings into the table and there was a lot of interest in what they bring in. So I think Sanjay brought in a new culture to come ball and he cemented that new culture with Hedwig because with Hedwig they acquired that new startup culture as well. So it's really coming together of a lot of new culture and that's going to overpower the old culture and going to bring a lot transformation within. >>So as arch and I, but I'd love to get your insights into how that that changed and you said, right. Do you know Sandra came from puppet? We talked to them earlier today about moving faster and CIC D and all this wonderful things. But how that aligned with customers. We talked to customers that are seven or 10 years working with convolve inside the organization. You know the person that owned the backup and recovery process, you know, how familiar are they with their developer team and how that's coming together in an organization. So is Convolt meeting the customers where they are? Are they skating to the puck? How does that alignment? >>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's, it's imperative that come moved and a lot of traditional data protection vendors move because customers are moving as well and they are forced to move because they are seeing lot of onslaught of data. Data's corporate data is growing 50 to 60% every year. That's just business data. So they're grappling with data growth and they're expected to do more with less and data is fragmented everywhere. So they are forced to make that change as well. So they are employing data protection officers, but at the same time they're also employing data scientists and newer data model architects to do new things with data because they are under pressure to deliver that better customer experiences. So companies are going through that change and we, in August we did a research and asked organizations, are you happy with your existing data protection tools and are you going to change it? >>And interestingly, 60% of those who are operating in multicloud environments want to change their data protection environment. And that shows because until now there was this huge power of incumbency, right? I will, I'm okay with this, I'll probably buy the next version of this and try and do iterative improvements. But now companies realize that this data growth and fragmentation and multicloud environment represents a new frontier and they need to move from this thinking that they've had and they're willing to change and work with the newer kind of companies that provide them what they want around unification and simplification. >>Yeah, I think you brought up some great points there. We've found when we talked to customers, they seem to be more open than ever to try something new. I kind of wonder if that's why metallic almost has a separate brand, a separate web website. It is a Convult venture because you know Combalt has incumbency and it has a pedigree. But if I'm trying something new, Convolt might not be the first one that I think of. >>Yeah. So today was the first time I heard about metallic and there is some, I love the branding and there's so much of gloss and shines, I need to get behind the gloss and shine. But I've seen that was one of the busiest places that we have seen today in the exhibition. And that shows commitment to the, it's, it's, it's, it's, they're entering the SAS world and they're talking that cloud likes scalability and it's also more than applications. They're talking about the pricing is a like consumption base, that cloud language and it's going to propel them along the way. And your perspective as customers that you talk to in any industry have so much choice. You're saying, Hey, the customers are recognizing in this multicloud world in which they find themselves operating. We've gotta be able to change our data protection strategy. I imagine things like the rise in cyber attacks or GDPR or the new law in California. >>That's coming are some compelling events. But when customers look at the landscape, and as was saying, they're so much more open to maybe trying new vendors, for example, how does Combalt part, you know, significant part and combat maybe new part with Hedvig and with metallic as a sort of this startup within combo. How did they elevate and differentiate themselves in your opinion, in a competitive landscape? Interesting. Yep. So when you look at startups, they have a lot of agility, but they're not able to bring that enterprise grade skill. Excuse me. And if you look at a lot of traditional vendors, they have that scale and enterprise grade guarantees, but they don't have that agility. But with this initiative, they've done some clever things and brought agility and skill together. That's their differentiator to see no, grab some water, we'll talk for a second. You probably even taught all day. >>That's the hazard, right, of going to these events is your voice, especially with the altitude. But, but as, as we've seen other large incumbents do the same thing. Absolutely. Everyone's pivoting to the same. It is. But also integration of technologies is not easy. Right. And that's sort of the table stakes is how are they, for example, going to integrate Hedvig such that one had bigs installed. ACE has a smooth, seamless transition and this opens up more opportunity for them and vice versa that that Combolt's install base now has more opportunity. Talk to us about what you've seen. They talked a little bit yesterday about some of the integration connections that they've made so far, but that's really key because a lot of companies don't do integrations. Well yeah, there've been some big acquisitions and they do integrations for years and years, right? It's been just 13 days since the acquisition closed. >>So it's still early days, but they need to keep that momentum up and I see a lot of synergy. So bringing storage and data management together is a good idea. But at the same time, I heard Sanjay alluded to it on the stage as well, where they're talking about application and data and moving away from that infrastructure. Right. And that that view is very important because companies need to move from protecting data centers to protecting centers of data. That's what they need to think about. So they need to abstract from infrastructure, but which is why when you look at it all though it's software defined storage. The language that they use is very clever. They're talking about APIs, they're talking about newer workflows, they're talking about changing business processes, they're talking about enabling data, they're talking about controlling data and using it data, using data for insights. >>So they're putting in a lot of newer perspective to this infrastructure view and taking a software defined container defined API defined view, and that's kind of very, very modern. I think that's going to bring a huge amount of difference. So thinking about some of the customers that you've spoken to will say in the last year that are either using Combolt or evaluating combo, some of the positioning that you just talked about to kind of very interesting, but I presume quite strategic with how they're talking about protect, use, manage control data. Are you hear from Comvalt are you hearing and seeing this is what I've been hearing from customers, is there an alignment? Are you hearing from custom what you heard from customers? I'll start over like in the last year, what combat is now delivering and the messaging that they're articulating. Are you now, are you seeing alignment like they're going in the direction that I'm hearing with what customers are wanting. >>He has, the customers are grappling with multicloud data services, so it's not just data protection but they need to get visibility of data across their, all the data sets across the board that they're challenged not just with structured data but growth in unstructured and semi-structured data as well. So they need to look at newer kinds of storage like object storage and all that. So they are grappling with newer kinds of challenges and that's why this new language is going to be hugely useful. And that's why this coming together of storage and data management can actually make a big difference because together they can paint a picture for the organization and tell them these are the challenges you're grappling. You don't need to buying different solutions from different places and buy it and bring it all together. We have deeper level of integration and we can solve it and convert. >>We'll be able to get to the customer at the storage level before they hit the customer, hits the data management problem and then starts hunting for a newer solution. So they're getting in early before the problem actually becomes an operational issue and that the Hey red, they are ready with the solution when the customer gets there. You might, you mentioned data visibility a minute ago and that's critical, right? For organizations that are, whether it's a smaller organization or one that's heavily matrix, if you don't have, and a lot of them don't have visibility into all of the data. Something that you talked about in the very beginning of the interview, that speed of intelligence and speed of insights, it can't take advantage of that. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So companies are investing into a lot of data scientists. But then so, so I was talking to actually three, I was doing a CIO executive dinner on this whole topic about data driven. >>And then so some of organizations, some of the CIS put their hands up and said, Hey, we have actually employed new data scientists. These data engineers and data scientists don't come cheap, right? They're very heavily skilled, talented, talented professionals. So you employ them. And now we're working backwards. Now we are trying to do what we can do with the data models and there's so much problem we are facing. We don't know what data is good data to be analyzed, what data we can delete, what data is cold data that we can send to archives and what do we need to, what are the use cases that we need big data analytics for? So they're working backwards and they're not able to leverage and capitalize on all the resources that they've spent on hiring these kinds of data scientists and data engineers. So I think they need to start that. Organizations need to get a hygiene about their data first and then take the next step around analytics and hiring these kind of data scientists is the first step. Sorry >>are tryna just, I was curious if you could comment on a statement that Sanjay Mirchandani made this morning. He says we need to rethink the kind of the lines and into definitions between primary and secondary storage. What do you think of that statement and where do you think vault ultimately will fit in the broader marketplace? >>You's quite aligned with what I see when I talk to customers as well. So, so companies, data is growing and it's fragmented, but at the same time the lines between primary storage and secondary storage are blurring as well. So the data that's cold today may be hot data tomorrow. So they need to understand, get visibility into data. Just 10% of data is hard data today. So that data needs to sit in the most expensive storage environments. They can leverage it and the rest needs to be, needs to go into tiered, into other colder storage, cheaper alternatives. But at the same time, when you want to access that data, it should not be difficult because now when you push it to a cloud archive your, that's your archive and be damned, right? You're not going to get that data back on in the format you want at the time you want, at the cost you want. So you need to make sure that you invest in storage technologies and you make that data tiering in such a way that when that called data is suddenly becoming warm data or hot data, you need to have access to it instantly in the format you like. Archna thank you for sharing your insights and recommendations and just your view on the industry and combat. We appreciate your time. No problem at all. Thank you very much. First, zoom and a man. I am Lisa Martin and you're watching the cube from combat go 19.

>> Announcer: Live from Atlanta, Georgia, it's theCUBE. Covering AnsibleFest 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back everyone it's theCUBE's live coverage here in Atlanta, Georgia for Red Hat's AnsibleFest. #AnsibleFest, check out all the commentary on Twitter. Of course, we're here for two days, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Mary Johnston Turner, Research VP Cloud Management International Data Corp IDC. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> So IT operations has been an evolving thing. AI and automation really changing the landscape of this data equation. IT operations used to be, "Hey, you go to IT ops, no problem." Now with the world changing to be more software-driven, software-led, a lot's changed. What's your take? What's your research say about the IT ops landscape? >> Well, I mean, you have to put it in the context of what's going on generally with IT, right? I mean, we're clearly seeing DevOps, you know it's either in production or in large scale testing and the majority of enterprises. We've got lots and lots of containers and Kubernetes usage, we've got multiple clouds in just about every enterprise you talk to. It's, you know, well over 90%. And what that all means is that there's just a lot of change on a lot of different levels. And so that's kind of really put stress on traditional, operational approaches on task-oriented automation. you know, siloed approaches to control and monitoring. And what we're really starting to see is now a move to how to become more integrated, more unified and more collaborative across all these teams. And that's actually kind of driving to me for a new generation of monitoring automation and analytics kind of all put together. >> It's interesting how management software has always been part of every IT conversation we've had in over the past decades. And, but recently if you look up the evolution of cloud and hybrid multi-cloud, you mentioned that. CloudOne, Dot, Amazon, public cloud, pretty straightforward to comprehend. Start-up start there. But this whole other cloud paradigm is shifting has taken these categories like network management, turned them into observability. Five companies go public and M&A activity booming. Automation similar kind of vibe to it here. It's got this management piece to it that used to be this white space. Now the aperture seems to be increasing. What's your take on this? Because we're trying to make sense of it. Customers are trying to figure it out, obviously. They've been doing configuration management. But now they got scale, they got some of the things you mentioned. What's this automation category look like or is it a category? >> I don't know if it's a category or not but it's certainly a thing, right? I think what we're seeing with automation is historically, it was very individual driven. It was, "I have a problem", right? I have to configure something or deploy something and I could whip up a script, you know, do a little code and it worked for me and it wasn't documented and that was great, you know. And I think what we're happening now with just the way applications are being architected, I mean, you're moving to very modular, microservices-based approach to applications, the way they're deployed. All the dependencies across all the different tiers from network to storage to public cloud to private cloud. It's really very, very difficult to rely on a bunch of ad hoc tools to do that. And so I think what's happened with automation is it's expanding up to become as much a business collaboration platform, as it is just sort of a task, feeds and speeds sort of control platform. We're kind of in the middle of that evolution. Even, you know, two years ago I don't think you saw the kinds of analytics, you know, and machine learning and AI that we're now starting to see come in as an overlay to the automation environment. >> Mary, one of the things we've been talking about for the last couple of years is that great buzz word of digital transformation. The real driver for that is I need to be a data driven organization, not just ad hoc things. So where does automation fit into that broader discussion of, you know, changing operational models like you were talking about? >> Well I think, you know done right, it can really be a platform for collaboration and accelerating digital transformation across the enterprise. Because rather than having, you know, each team have to do their own thing and then do a manual hand off or a big change control meeting, you know, these things just don't scale and move quick enough in today's environments. Particularly if you're trying to update your applications every five minutes, right? So, I think the collaboration, the different teams and also a creative environment where you can have more generalists too, right? you know, there's collaboration across IT ops and DevOps and sort of the lines start to blur. >> Yeah, you mentioned the word platform and we were talking to the Ansible team, they were very specific as to how they chose that for customers out there. You know, choosing a platform is a bit of a commitment. It's not just a tactical, "We're going to do this." What's your thoughts on the Ansible automation platform and what feedback do you have to customers as to how they're deciding which platforms and how many platforms that they'll develop on? >> Yeah, it's a really interesting conversation. I mean, I think one of the things that the Ansible team's really focusing on that's important is the modularity. The fact that you can plug and play and kind of grow over time. And also that it's a very software-driven paradigm with the automation artifacts under source control. Which again is kind of different for a lot of ops teams. They don't have that notion of Git and software development all the time. So I think that having a platform approach that still allows a fair amount of modularity integration, and it lets different parts of the organization decide over time how much they want to participate in a very curated, consistent integration. And at the same time, at least in the Ansible world, because of the way it's architected, they can still have modules that call out to other automation, you know, solutions that are in the environment. So it's not an all or nothing, and I think that's really, really important. And it's also a platform for analytics. I'm sorry, but data, you know, about what's going on with the automation. >> The data's critical, but we had mentioned earlier on our previous interview with Red Hat folks and Stu and I's intro about the cloud and how the complexity that is being introduced, and you mentioned some of those earlier, the complexities are there. Of the automation solutions that you've seen, which one's having the most impact for customers? >> Well that, what do you mean by impact? There's such a, such a range of them. If you look in certainly the configuration, infrastructure as code space, obviously Ansible, there's a couple others. If you look into the CI/CD space, right? I mean there's a whole set of very optimized CI/CD tools out there that are very important to the DevOps environment. And, again, you'll see integrations between the infrastructure and the CI/CD, and they're all kind of blurring. And then you've got very specific, almost domain controllers, whether they're for hardware or converged infrastructure-type platforms, or whether they're for public clouds. And those don't go away, right? You still need something that understands the lower level system. And so, I think what we're seeing is organizations trying to reduce the number of individual siloed automation tools they've got, but they're still probably going to have more than one to do the full stack with something, you know, acting as kind of a policy-driven control plane in analytics-driven control plane in the middle. >> So, you've still got to run the plumbing. >> Right, exactly. >> You've still got to run the system now. >> Yeah, I mean something like 70 to 80% of the customers we talk to that are using one or more of the big public clouds, they're also using a fair amount of control tooling that's provided by those cloud vendors. And those aren't going to go away, because, you know, it's just like a hardware system. You got to have the drivers, right? You got to have the core, but you've got to be able to again have the process flow across it that's really important. >> What's your take on the market place shaking out the winners and losers? Because I know you like to track the marketplace from a research standpoint. It just seems that all the events we go to at theCube, everyone's jockeying for the control plane. >> They are. >> Or something. The control plane of the data. We're the control plane for the management. So, the control plane, meaning horizontally scalable, much more platform-centric. You're starting to see kind of a systems thinking coming back into the enterprise versus the siloed IT, but this illustrious control plane, (Mary laughing) I mean, how many control planes can there be? What's your take on all this craziness? >> That's a good question. I mean again, I think there is a difference between sort of the driver level, right? Which it used to be, again, those scripts. They were kind of like drivers, right? That's almost becoming just the playing field. You've got to have those integrations. You've got to have a nice modular way to architect that. What really is going to be the control plane is the data. It's the metrics around what are you doing. It's the performance, it's the security, and being able to actually optimize a lot of the SLOs that go along with that. That's really where the, you know, being able to do a good thing with the data, and tie it to the business and the app is where the real control is going to be. >> Mary, how's Ansible doing as a business? We saw a lot of proof points in the keynote about the community growth, obviously, adoption is up. But, anything you can share about how, you know, they've been doing really about four years into the Red Hat acquisition? >> Well they're, I mean, they're growing pretty effectively. They, I think this whole category is growing, and so they're benefiting quite a lot from that. I think we are seeing really strong growth in the partner communities. Particularly here at this show we are seeing some really, you know, larger and larger scale partnerships, more and more investment. And I think that is really important, because ultimately for a technology like this to scale, it's got to become embedded in all kinds of solutions. So, I look at much as the partner adoption as a good sign as anything. >> Well it's, you know, I guess two things. One is, the whole market's growing. Is Ansible doing better or worse than that? And what is the impact of those cloud-native tooling that you mentioned is, you know, I looked there's kind of Red Hat, the Ansible traditional competition, which was more in the infrastructure management space and now, yes, they do containerization, and work more in the cloud environment. They're kind of spanning between those environments. >> Well, I think, you know, again I see most organizations using multiple tools. I think, from a revenue and growth rate, I can't really get into it, because, as you know, Ansible is actually part of Red Hat, and Red Hat doesn't report out numbers at that level. But we see certainly see a lot of adoption. And we see Ansible, you know, at least if not the primary, as one of the major tools in more and more organizations. And that's across compute, storage, network, very, very popular in the network space, and then growing. Probably not quite as strong, but growing interest in like security and IoT. >> It's interesting you mention the numbers and how Ansible is now part of Red Hat. When Red Hat bought Ansible a couple years ago, I think the year before Stu and I were talking about how configuration management automation was going to come. We kind of saw it, but one of the things that in the community and Red Hat had publicly talked about is, Red Hat didn't screw it up. They kind of got it right, they kept them alone. They grew organically and this organic growth is kind of a forcing function for these new things. Are you happy with what Red Hat has done here with Ansible and this platform? What's your take on this platform? Because platforms have to enable. Good things and value. >> I think you're right. Ansible grew very virally and organically for a long time, but you kind of hit a wall with that at some point. I think they rightly recognized that they needed to have the kind of tooling, the kind of metrics, the kind of hub and modularity that would allow it to go the next level. So, I'm actually really encouraged by this announcement, and I think it also, again, it positions it I think to make partner driven-solutions much more easily standardized. It opens up, probably more ways for people to contribute to the communities. So I think it's really positive. >> And as a platform, if it's enabling value, what kind of value propositions do you see emerging? 'Cause you've got the content collections, the automation hub, automation analytics. Is it just bolting onto RHEL as value? What is some of the value that you might see coming out of the Ansible automation platform? >> Oh, well I mean Ansible's always been very agnostic. It's always been its own business which certainly can compliment RHEL. There's RHEL rolls and all kinds of stuff. But that's not really the focal point for Ansible. Ansible really is about providing that modular consistent automation approach that can span all these different operational domains, and really reach into the business process. So, I think it's great for the Red Hat portfolio, but now as we start to see them building bridges into the bigger IBM portfolio, you know, we haven't had a lot of IBM/Ansible announcements yet, but I would expect that we're going to see more over time. I think the OpenShift Operator integrations are going to be important as part of the things that IBM is doing with OpenShift. So, I think there's more to come. >> Mary, I wonder what your research finds regarding open source consumption in general. You know, how many of the customers out there are just using the free community addition? You know, Red Hat's very clear, you know, they are not, the open source is not Red Hat's business model. It is the way that they work. >> Mary: It's a development model. >> It's their development model. So, any general comments about open source, and specifically around Ansible, kind of the community free edition versus paid. >> Well, it's obviously been an interesting week in open source world with, not Red Hat, but some other vendors getting a little bit of flack for some of the choices they've made about their business practices. I think, you know, there are many, many organizations that continue to get started with unpaid, unsupported open source. What typically happens is if it gets to a critical mass within a company, at some point they're going to say, either I have to invest a lot of people and time and do all the testing, hardening, integration, tracking the security updates you know, and they're still never going to get notified directly from intel when there's a problem, right? So, I think many organizations as they, if they decide this is mission critical then they start to look for supported editions. And we've done a lot of research looking at the benefits of getting that level of support and typically, it's just 50 to 60% improvements and, you know, stability, security, time-to-market because you're not having to do all that work. So, its a trade-off, but you'll always have some, particularly smaller organizations, individual teams that they're not going to pay for it. But I think its scale is when it really becomes valuable. >> Mary, final question for you, for the folks watching that couldn't make the event or industry insiders that aren't in this area. Why is this AnsibleFest more important this year than ever before? What's the big story? What's the top thing happening now in this world? >> I mean, there's great energy here this year. And I've gone to a couple of these over the years. First of all, it's the biggest one they've ever had. I think really though, it's the story of collaboration, building teams, automating end-to-end processes. And that's really powerful, because it's very clear that the community has stepped up from just saying, I can do a great job with network automation, or I can do a great job with cloud or with server. And they're really saying, this is about transforming the organization. Making the organization more productive, making the business more agile. And I think that is a big step for Ansible. >> You know, I think that is a huge point. I think that's something that's really important, because you know, we've talked about capabilities before. It does this, it does that to your point. This is kind of a testament to the operationalizing of DevOps. 'Cause people have always been the bottleneck. So this seems to be the trend. Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah, I think so. And I also see, again, this community talking so much about upscaling the people. Embracing things like unit testing and source control. And it's a maturation of the whole automation conversation among this community. And remember, this community is only what? Six, seven years old? >> Stu: 2012. >> Yeah, I mean it's really a very, very young community. So I think it's a really important pivot point, just in terms of the scale of the problems they can address. >> Solve for abstractions. Solving big problem, automation will be a great category. Mary, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Sharing your insights and your research and your analysis. I appreciate it. >> Okay, thank you. >> Mary Johnston Turner Research VP of Cloud Management at IDC, here inside theCUBE. Breaking down the analysis of Red Hat's Ansible position vis-a-vis the market trends. It's theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's three Cube covering M. I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back to M I. T. CDO I Q everybody, you're watching the cube we got. We go out to the events we extract the signal from the noise is day one of this conference. Chief Data Officer event. I'm Dave, along with my co host, Paul Gillen. Stuart Bond is here is a research director of International Data Corporation I DC Stewart. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. So your space data intelligence tell us about your swim lane? Sure. >> So my role it I. D. C is a ZAY. Follow the data integration and data intelligence software market. So I follow all the different vendors in the market. I look at what kinds of solutions they're bringing to market, what kinds of problems. They're solving both business and technical for their clients. And so I can then report on the trends and market sizes, forecasts and such, And within that part of what I what I cover is everything from data integration which is more than traditionally E T l change data capture data movements, data, virtualization types of technologies as well as what we call date integrity of one. And I'm calling data intelligence, which is all of the Tell the metadata about the data. It's the data catalogs meditating management's data lineage. It's the data quality data profiling, master data intelligence. It's all of the data about the data and understanding really answering what I call a entering the five W's and h of data. It's the who, what, where, when, why and how. Data. So that's the market that I'm covering and following, and that's why I'm >> here. Were you here this morning for Mark Ramsey's Yes, I talk. So he kind of went to you. Heard it started with the D W kind of through E T L under the bus. Well, MGM, then the Enterprise data model said all that failed. But that stuff's not going away, and I'm sure they're black. So still using, you know, all those all that tooling today. So what was your reaction to that you were not in your head and yeah, it's true or saying, Well, maybe there's a little we'll have what we've been saying. The mainframe is gonna go away for years and >> still around, so I think they're obviously there's still those technologies out there and they're still being used. You can look at any of the major dtl vendors and there's new ones coming to the market, so that's still alive and well. There's no doubt that it's out there and its biggest segment of the market that I followed. So there's no source tooling, right? Yes, >> there's no doubt that it's still >> there. But Mark's vision of where things are going, where things are heading with, with data intelligence really being at the Cory talk about those spiders talked about that central depository of information about knowledge of the data. That's where things are heading to, whether you call it a data hub, whether you call it a date, a platform, not really a one big, huge data pop for one big, huge data depository, but one a place where you can go to get the information but natives you can find out where the data is. You could find out what it means, both the business context as well as the technical information you find out who's using that data. You can find out when it's being used, Why it's being used in. Why do we even have it and how it should >> be used? So it's being used >> appropriately. So you would say that his vision, actually what he implemented was visionary skating. They skated to the puck, so to speak, and that's we're going >> to see more of that. Where are seeing more of that? That's why we've seen such a jump in the number of vendors that air providing data catalogue solutions. I did, Uh, I d. C has this work product calling market glance. I did that >> beginning of 2018. >> I just did it again. In the middle of this year, the number of vendors that offer data catalogue solutions has significantly interest 240% increase in the number of vendors that offer that now itself of a small base. These air, not exhaustive studies. It may be that I didn't know about all those data catalogue vendors a year and 1/2 ago, but may also be that people are now saying that we've got a data catalogue, >> but you've really got a >> peel back the layers a little bit. Understand what these different data catalysts are and what they're doing because not all of them are crediting. >> We'll hear Radar. You don't know about it. 99% of the world mark talked this morning about some interesting new technologies. They were using Spider Ring to find the data bots to classify the data tools wrangle the data. I mean, there's a lot of new technology being applied to this area. What? Which of those technologies do you think has the greatest promise right now? And how? How how automated can this process become? >> It's the spider ring, and it's the cataloging of the data. It's understanding what you've got out there that is growing crazy. Just started to track that it's growing a lot that has the most promised. And as I said, I think that's going to be the data platform in the future. Is the intelligence knowing about where your data is? You men go on, get it. You know it's not a matter of all. The data is one place anymore. Data's everywhere Date is in hybrid cloud. It's in on premise. It's in private. Cloud isn't hosted. It's everywhere. I just did a survey. I got the results back in June 2019 just a month ago, and the data is all over the place. So really having that knowledge having that intelligence about where your data is, that has the most promise. As faras, the automation is concerned. Next step there. It's not just about collecting the information about where your data is, but it's actually applying the analytics, the machine learning and the artificial intelligence to that metadata collection that you've got so that you can then start to create those bots to create those pipelines to start to automate those tasks. We're starting to see some vendors move in that area, moving that direction. There's a lot of promise there >> you guys, at least when I remember. You see, the software is pretty robust taxonomy. I'm sure it's evolved over the years. So how do you sort of define your space? I'm interested in How big is that space, you know, in terms of market size and is a growing and where do you see it going? >> Right. So my my coverage of data integration and data intelligence is fairly small. It's a small, little marketed. I D. C. I'm part of a larger team that looks a data management, the analytics and information management. So we've got people on our team like a damn vessel. Who covers the analytics? Advanced Analytics show Nautical Palo Carlson. He's been on the cable covers, innovative technologies, those I apologize. I don't have that number off the top. >> Okay, No, But your space, my space is it. That's that Software market is so fragmented. And what I d. C has always done well, as you put people on those fragments and you know, deep in there. So So how you've been ableto not make your eyes bleed when you do that, challenging so the data and put it all together. >> It's important. Integration markets about 66 and 1/2 1,000,000,000 >> dollars. Substantial size. Yeah, but again, a lot of vendors Growing number of events in the markets growing, >> the market continues to grow as the data is becoming more distributed, more dispersed. There's no need to continue to integrate that data. There's also that need that growing >> need for that date intelligence. It's not >> just, you know, we've had a lot of enquiries lately about data being fed into machine learning artificial intelligence and people realizing our data isn't clean. We have to clean up our data because we're garbage in garbage. Out is probably more important now than ever before because you don't have someone saying, I don't think that day is right. You've got machines were looking at data instead. The technology that's out there and the problem with data quality. It's on a new problem. It's the same problem we've had for years. All of the technology is there to clean that data up, and that's a part of what I saw. I look at the data quality vendors experience here, sink sort in all of the other data quality capabilities that you get from in from Attica, from Tahoe or from a click podium. Metal is there, and so that part is growing. And there's a lot of more interest in that data quality and that data intelligence side again so the right data can be used. Good data can be used to trust in that data. Can the increase we used for the right reasons as well That's adding that context. Understand that Samantha having all that metadata that goes around that data so that could be used. Most of >> it is one of those markets that you may be relatively small. It's not 100,000,000,000 but it it enables a lot of larger markets. So okay, so it's 66 and 1/2 1,000,000,000 it's growing. It is a growing single digits, double digits. It's growing. It's hovering around the double dip double. It is okay, it's 10%. And then and then who were the, You know, big players who was driving the shares there? Is there a dominant player there? Bunch of >> so infirm. Atticus Number one in the market. Okay, followed by IBM. And I say peas right up there. Sass is there. Tell End is making a good Uh, okay, they're making a nice with Yeah, but there there's a number of different players. There's There's a lot of different players in that market. >> And in the leading market share player has what, 10%? 15%? 50%? Is it like a dominant divine spot? That's tough to say. You got a big It's over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 right? So they've got maybe 1/6 of the market. Okay, so but it's not like Cisco as 2/3 of the networking market or anything like that. And what about the cloud guys? A participating in this guy's deal with >> the cloud guys? Yeah, the ClA got so there are some pure cloud solutions. There's a relative, for example. Pure cloud MBM mastered a management there. There's I'd say there's less pure cloud than there used to be. But, you know, but someone like an infra matic is really pushing that clouds presence in that cloud >> running these tools, this tooling in in the cloud But the cloud guys directly or not competing at this >> point. So Amazon Google? Yes, Those cloud guys. Yes. Okay, there, there. Google announced data flow back in our data. Sorry. Data fusion back. Google. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so there they've got an e t l two on the cloud now. Ah, Amazon has blue yet which is both a catalog and an e t l tool. Microsoft course has data factory in azure. >> So those guys are coming on. I'm guessing if you talk to in dramatic and they said, Well, they're not as robust as we are. And we got a big install base and we go multi cloud is that kind of posturing of the incumbents or yeah, that's posturing. And maybe that's I don't mean it is a pejorative. If I were, those guys would be doing the same thing. You know, we were talking earlier about how the cloud guys essentially killed the Duke. All right, do you Do you see the same thing happening here, or is it well, the will the tool vendors be able to stay ahead in your view, >> depends on how they execute. If they're there and they're available in the cloud along with along with those clapper viers, they're able to provide solutions in the same same way the same elasticity, the same type of consumption based pricing models that pod vendors air offering. They can compete with that. They still have a better solution. Easton What >> in multi cloud in hybrid is a big part of their value problems that the cloud guys aren't really going hard after. I mean, this sort of dangling your toe in the water, some of them some of the >> cloud guys they have. They have the hybrid capabilities because they've got some of what they're what they built comes from on premises, worlds as well. So they've got that ability. Microsoft in particular >> on Google, >> Google that the data fusion came out of >> You're saying, But it's part of the Antos initiative. Er, >> um, I apologize. Folks are watching, >> but soup of acronyms notices We're starting a little bit. What tools have you seen or technology? Have you seen making governance of unstructured data? That looks promising? Uh, so I don't really cover >> the instructor data space that much. What I can say is Justus in the structure data world. It's about the metadata. It's about having the proper tags about that unstructured data. It's about getting the information of that unstructured data so that it can then be governed appropriately, making structure out of that, that is, I can't really say, because I don't cover that market explicitly. But I think again it comes back to the same type of data intelligence having that intelligence about that data by understanding what's in there. >> What advice are you giving to, you know, the buyers in your community and the sellers in your community, >> So the buyer's within the market. I talk a lot about that. The need for that data intelligence, so data governance to me is not a technology you can't go by data governance data governance is an organizational disappoint. Technology is a part of that. To me, the data intelligence technology is a part of that. So, really, organizations, if they really want a good handle, get a good handle on what data they have, how to use that, how to be enabled by that data. They need to have that date intelligence into go look for solutions that can help him pull that data intelligence out. But the other part of that is measurement. It's critical to measure because you can't improve what you're not measuring. So you know that type of approach to it is critical Eve, and you've got to be able to have people in the organization. You've got to be able to have cooperation collaboration across the business. I t. The the gifted office chief Officer office. You've gotta have that collaboration. You've gotta have accountability and for in order for that, to really be successful. For the vendors in the space hybrid is the new reality. In my survey data, it shows clearly that hybrid is where things are. It's not just cloud, it's not just on promise Tiebreak. That's where the future is. They've got to be able to have solutions that work in that environment. Working that hybrid cloud ability has got to be able to have solutions that can be purchased and used again in the same sort of elastic type of method that they're able to get consumers able to get. Service is from other vendors in that same >> height, so we gotta run. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your data. And I know we were fired. I was firing a lot of questions. Did pretty well, not having the report in front of me. I know what that's like. So thank you for sharing and good luck with your challenges in the future. You got You got a lot of a lot of data to collect and a lot of fast moving markets. So come back any time. Share with you right now, Okay? And thank you for watching Paul and I will be back with our next guest right after this short break from M I t cdo. Right back

>> from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering active eo 2019. Data driven you by activity. >> Hi. We're right outside of the Boston Haba. You're watching >> the cube on stew Minimum in. And this is active Geo data driven. 2019 due date. Two days digging into, You >> know, the role of data inside Cos on, you know, in an ever changing world, happy to welcome to the program of first time guests are China Oven countrymen who's a research manager at I. D. C. Coming to us from across the pond in London. Thanks so much for joining us. Pleasure. So tell us a little bit. I d c. We know. Well, you know, the market landscapes, you know, watching what's happening. Thie said it 77 Zita bites that was put up in the keynote. Came came from I D. C. Tells you you're focused. >> Yeah, so I'm part of the data protection and storage research team, But I have, ah, European focus. I covered the Western European markets where data protection is almost off a neurotic interest to us. So a lot of our investment is actually made on the context of data protection. And how do I become data driven without compromising on security and sovereignty and data locality. So that's something that I look at. I'm also part of our broader multi cloud infrastructure team on also develops practice. I'm looking at all these modern new trends from data perspective as well. So it's kind of nice being >> keeping you busy, huh? Yeah. So about a year ago, every show that I went to there would be a big clock up on the Kino stage counting down until gpr went way actually said on the Q. Many times it's like we'll know when GPR starts with lawsuits. Sister and I feel like it was a couple of days, if not a couple of weeks before some of the big tech firms got sued for this. So here we are 2019. It's been, you know, been a while now since since since this launch. How important is GDP are you know what? How is that impacting customers and kind of ripple effect? Because, you know, here in the States, we're seeing some laws in California and beyond that are following that. But they pushed back from the Oh, hey, we're just gonna have all the data in the world and we'll store it somewhere sure will protect it and keep it secure. But but But >> yeah, yeah, so it's suggestive. Here is a game changer and it's interesting you said this big clock ticking and everybody has been talking about it. So when the European Commission >> announced repairs >> coming, organizations had about two years to actually prepare for it. But there were a lot of naysayers, and they thought, This is not gonna happen. The regulators don't have enough resources to actually go after all of these data breaches, and it's just too complicated. Not everyone's going complaints just not gonna happen. But then they realised that the regulators we're sticking to it on towards the end. Towards the last six months in the race to GDP, and there was this helter skelter running. Their organizations were trying to just do some Die Ryan patch of exercise to have that minimum viable compliance. So there they wanted to make sure that they don't go out of business. They don't have any major data breaches when Jean Pierre comes a difference that that was the story of 2018 although they have so much time to react they didn't on towards the end. They started doing a lot of these patch up work to make sure they had that minimum by the compliance. But over time, what we're seeing is that a lot off a stewed organizations are actually using GDP are as to create that competitive differentiations. If you look at companies like Barclays, they have been so much on top of that game on DH. They include that in their marketing strategies and the corporate social responsibility to say that, Hey, you know our business is important to us, but your privacy and your data is much more valuable to us, and that kind of instantly helps them build that trust. So they have big GDP, our compliance into their operations so much and so well that they can actually sell those kind of GPR consultancy services because they're so good at it. And that's what we are seeing is happening 2019 on DH. Probably the next 12 to 18 months will be about scaling on operational izing GDP are moving from that minimum viable compliance. >> Its interest weighed a conversation with Holly St Clair, whose state of Massachusetts and in our keynote this morning she talked about that data minimalist. I only want as much data as I know what I'm going to do. How I'm goingto leverage it, you know, kind of that pendulum swing back from the I'm goingto poured all the data and think about it later. It is that Did you see that is a trend with, you know, is that just governments is that, you know, you seeing that throughout industries and your >> interesting. So there was seven gpr came into existence. There were a lot of these workshops that were happening for on for organizations and how to become GDP. And there was this Danish public sector organization where one of the employees went to do that workshop was all charged up, and he came back to his employer and said, Hey, can you forget me on it Took that organization about 14 employees and three months to forget one person. So that's the amount of data they were holding in. And they were not dilating on all the processes were manual which took them so long to actually forget one person on. So if you don't cleanse a pure data act now meeting with all these right to be forgotten, Andi, all these specific clauses within GPR is going to be too difficult. And it's going to just eat up your business >> tryingto connecting the dots here. One of the one of the big stumbling blocks is if you look at data protection. If I've got backup, if I've got archive, I mean, if I've taken a snapshot of something and stuck that under a mountain in a giant tape and they say forget about me Oh, my gosh, Do I have to go retrieve that? I need to manage that? The cost could be quite onerous. Help! Help us connect the dots as to what that means to actually, you know, what are the ramifications of this regulation? >> Yeah, So I think so. Judy PR is a beast. It's a dragon off regulations. It's important to dice it to understand what the initial requirements are on one was the first step is to get visibility and classified the data as to what is personal data. You don't want to apply policies to all the data because I might be some garbage in there, so you need to get visibility on A says and classified data on what is personal data. Once you know what data is personal, what do you want to retain? That's when you start applying policies too. Ensure that they are safe and they're anonymous. Pseudonym ized. If you want to do analytics at a later stage on DH, then you think about how you meet. Individual close is so see there's a jeep airframe, but you start by classifying data. Then you apply specific policies to ensure you protect on back up the personal data on. Then you go about meeting the specific requirements. >> What else can you tell us about kind of European markets? You know, I I know when I look at the the cloud space, governance is something very specific to, and I need to make sure my data doesn't leave the borders and like what other trends in you know issues when you hear >> it from Jenny Peered forced a lot ofthe existential threat to a lot of companies. Like, say, hyper scale. Er's SAS men does so they were the first ones to actually become completely compliant to understand their regulations, have European data data hubs, and to have those data centres like I think At that time, Microsoft had this good good collaboration with T systems to have a local data center not controlled by Microsoft, but by somebody who is just a German organizations. You cannot have data locality more than that, right? So they were trying different innovative ways to build confidence among enterprises to make sure that cloud adoption continues on what was interesting. That came out from a research was that way thought, Gee, DPR means people's confidence and cloud is going to plunge. People's confidence in public cloud is going to pledge. That didn't happen. 42% of organizations were still going ahead with their cloud strategies as is, but it's just that they were going to be a lot more cautious. And they want to make sure that the applications and data that they were putting in the cloud was something that they had complete visibility in tow on that didn't have too much of personal data and even if it had, they had complete control over. So they had a different strategy off approaching public cloud, but it didn't slow them down. But over time they realised that to get that control ofthe idea and to get that control of data. They need to have that multiple multi cloud strategy because Cloud had to become a two way street. They need to have an exit strategy. A swell. So they tried to make sure that they adopted multiple cloud technologies and have the data interoperability. Ahs Well, because data management was one of their key key. Top of my prayer. >> Okay, last question I had for you. We're here at the active you event. What? What do you hear from your customers about Octavio? Any research that you have relevant, what >> they're doing, it's going interesting. So copy data management. That's how active you started, right? They created a market for themselves in this competition, a management and be classified copy data management within replication Market on replication is quite a slow market, but this copy data management is big issue, and it's one of the fastest growing market. So So So they started off from a good base, but they created a market for themselves and people started noticing them, and now they have kind of grown further and grown beyond and tried to cover the entire data management space. Andi, I think what's interesting and what's going to be interesting is how they keep up the momentum in building that infrastructure, ecosystem and platform ecosystem. Because companies are moving from protecting data centers to protecting centers of data on if they can help organizations protect multiple centers of data through a unified pane of glass, I have a platform approach to data management. Then they can help organizations become data drivers, which gives them the competitive advantage. So if they can keep up that momentum there going great guns, >> Thank you so much for joining us in Cheshire, sharing the data that you have in the customer viewpoints from Europe. So we'll be back with more coverage here from Active EO data driven 2019 in Boston. Mess fuses on stew Minimum. Thanks for watching the Q. Thank you.

>> From Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube. Covering Actifio 2019: Data Driven, Brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental Hotel at Actifio's Data Driven conference, day one. You're watching The Cube. The leader in on-the-ground tech coverage. My name is is Dave Valante, Stu Minamin is here, so is John Ferrer, my friend Frank Gens is here, he's the Senior Vice President and Chief Analyst at IDC and Head Dot Connector. Frank, welcome to The Cube. >> Well thank you Dave. >> First time. >> First time. >> Newbie. >> Yep. >> You're going to crush it, I know. >> Be gentle. >> You know, you're awesome, I've watched you over the many years, of course, you know, you seem to get competitive, and it's like who gets the best rating? Frank always had the best ratings at the Directions conference. He's blushing but I could- >> I don't know if that's true but I'll accept it. >> I could never beat him, no matter how hard I tried. But you are a phenomenal speaker, you gave a great conversation this morning. I'm sure you drew a lot from your Directions talk, but every year you lay down this, you know, sort of, mini manifesto. You describe it as, you connect the dots, IDC, thousands of analysts. And it's your job to say okay, what does this all mean? Not in the micro, let's up-level a little bit. So, what's happening? You talked today, You know you gave your version of the wave slides. So, where are we in the waves? We are exiting the experimentation phase, and coming in to a new phase that multiplied innovation. I saw AI on there, block-chain, some other technologies. Where are we today? >> Yeah, well I think having mental models of the6 industry or any complex system is pretty important. I mean I've made a career dumbing-down a complex industry into something simple enough that I can understand, so we've done it again now with what we call the third platform. So, ten years ago seeing the whole raft of new technologies at the time were coming in that would become the foundation for the next thirty years of tech, so, that's an old story now. Cloud, mobile, social, big data, obviously IOT technologies coming in, block-chain, and so forth. So we call this general era the third platform, but we noticed a few years ago, well, we're at the threshold of kind of a major scale-up of innovation in this third platform that's very different from the last ten or twelve years, which we called the experimentation stage. Where people were using this stuff, using the cloud, using mobile, big data, to create cool things, but they were doing it in kind of a isolated way. Kind of the traditional, well I'm going to invent something and I may have a few friends help me, whereas, the promise of the cloud has been , well, if you have a lot of developers out on the cloud, that form a community, an ecosystem, think of GitHub, you know, any of the big code repositories, or the ability to have shared service as often Amazon, Cloud, or IBM, or Google, or Microsoft, the promise is there to actually bring to life what Bill Joy said, you know, in the nineties. Which was no matter how smart you are, most of the smart people in the world work for someone else. So the questions always been, well, how do I tap into all those other smart people who don't work for me? So we can feel that where we are in the industry right now is the business model of multiplied innovation or if you prefer, a network of collaborative innovation, being able to build something interesting quickly, using a lot of innovation from other people, and then adding your special sauce. But that's going to take the scale of innovation just up a couple of orders of magnitude. And the pace, of course, that goes with that, is people are innovating much more rapid clip now. So really, the full promise of a cloud-native innovation model, so we kind of feel like we're right here, which means there's lots of big changes around the technologies, around kind of the world of developers and apps, AI is changing, and of course, the industry structure itself. You know the power positions, you know, a lot of vendors have spent a lot of energy trying to protect the power positions of the last thirty years. >> Yeah so we're getting into some of that. So, but you know, everybody talks about digital transformation, and they kind of roll their eyes, like it's a big buzzword, but it's real. It's dataware at a data-driven conference. And data, you know, being at the heart of businesses means that you're seeing businesses transition industries, or traverse industries, you know, Amazon getting into groceries, Apple getting into content, Amazon as well, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, so, my question is, what's a tech company? I mean, you know, Bennyhoff says that, you know, every company's a sass company, and you're certainly seeing that, and it's got to be great for your business. >> Yeah, yeah absolutely >> Quantifying all those markets, but I mean, the market that you quantify is just it's every company now. Banks, insurance companies, grocers, you know? Everybody is a tech company. >> I think, yeah, that's a hundred percent right. It is that this is the biggest revolution in the economy, you know, for many many decades. Or you might say centuries even. Is yeah, whoever put it, was it Mark Andreson or whoever used to talk about software leading the world, we're in the middle of that. Only, software now is being delivered in the form of digital or cloud services so, you know, every company is a tech company. And of course it really raises the question, well what are tech companies? You know, they need to kind of think back about where does our value add? But it is great. It's when we look at the world of clouds, one of the first things we observed in 2007, 2008 was, well, clouds wasn't just about S3 storage clouds, or salesforce.com's softwares and service. It's a model that can be applied to any industry, any company, any offering. And of course we've seen all these startups whether it's Uber or Netflix or whoever it is, basically digital innovation in every single industry, transforming that industry. So, to me that's the exciting part is if that model of transforming industries through the use of software, through digital technology. In that kind of experimentation stage it was mainly a startup story. All those unicorns. To me the multiplied innovation chapter, it's about- (audio cuts out) finally, you know, the cities, the Procter & Gambles, the Walmarts, the John Deere's, they're finally saying hey, this cloud platform and digital innovation, if we can do that in our industry. >> Yeah, so intrapreneurship is actually, you know, starting to- >> Yeah. >> So you and I have seen a lot of psychos, we watched the you know, the mainframe wave get crushed by the micro-processor based revolution, IDC at the time spent a lot of time looking at that. >> Vacuum tubes. >> Water coolant is back. So but the industry has marched to the cadence of Moore's Law forever. Even Thomas Friedman when he talks about, you know, his stuff and he throws in Moore's Law. But no longer Moore's Law the sort of engine of innovation. There's other factors. So what's the innovation cocktail looking forward over the next ten years? You've talked about cloud, you know, we've talked about AI, what's that, you know, sandwich, the innovation sandwich look like? >> Yeah so to me I think it is the harnessing of all this flood of technologies, again, that are mainly coming off the cloud, and that parade is not stopping. Quantum, you know, lots of other technologies are coming down the pipe. But to me, you know, it is the mixture of number one the cloud, public cloud stacks being able to travel anywhere in the world. So take the cloud on the road. So it's even, I would say, not even just scale, I think of, that's almost like a mount of compute power. Which could happen inside multiple hyperscale data centers. I'm also thinking about scale in terms of the horizontal. >> Bringing that model anywhere. >> Take me out to the edge. >> Wherever your data lives. >> Take me to a Carnival cruise ship, you know, take me to, you know, an apple-powered autonomous car, or take me to a hospital or a retail store. So the public cloud stacks where all the innovation is basically happening in the industry. Jail-breaking that out so it can come, you know it's through Amazon, AWS Outpost, or Ajerstack, or Google Anthos, this movement of the cloud guys, to say we'll take public cloud innovation wherever you need it. That to me is a big part of the cocktail because that's you know, basically the public clouds have been the epicenter of most tech innovation the last three or four years, so, that's very important. I think, you know just quickly, the other piece of the puzzle is the revolution that's happening in the modularity of apps. So the micro services revolution. So, the building of new apps and the refactoring of old apps using containers, using servos technologies, you know, API lifecycle management technologies, and of course, agile development methods. Kind of getting to this kind of iterative sped up deployment model, where people might've deployed new code four times a year, they're now deploying it four times a minute. >> Yeah right. >> So to me that's- and kind of aligned with that is what I was mentioning before, that if you can apply that, kind of, rapid scale, massive volume innovation model and bring others into the party, so now you're part of a cloud-connected community of innovators. And again, that could be around a Github, or could be around a Google or Amazon, or it could be around, you know, Walmart. In a retail world. Or an Amazon in retail. Or it could be around a Proctor & Gamble, or around a Disney, digital entertainment, you know, where they're creating ecosystems of innovators, and so to me, bringing people, you know, so it's not just these technologies that enable rapid, high-volume modular innovation, but it's saying okay now plugging lots of people's brains together is just going to, I think that, here's the- >> And all the data that throws off obviously. >> Throws a ton of data, but, to me the number we use it kind of is the punchline for, well where does multiplied innovation lead? A distributed cloud, this revolution in distributing modular massive scale development, that we think the next five years, we'll see as many new apps developed and deploye6d as we saw developed and deployed in the last forty years. So five years, the next five years, versus the last forty years, and so to me that's, that is the revolution. Because, you know, when that happens that means we're going to start seeing that long tail of used cases that people could never get to, you know, all the highly verticalized used cases are going to be filled, you know we're going to finally a lot of white space has been white for decades, is going to start getting a lot of cool colors and a lot of solutions delivered to them. >> Let's talk about some of the macro stuff, I don't know the exact numbers, but it's probably three trillion, maybe it's four trillion now, big market. You talked today about the market's going two x GDP. >> Yeah. >> For the tech market, that is. Why is it that the tech market is able to grow at a rate faster than GDP? And is there a relationship between GDP and tech growth? >> Yeah, well, I think, we are still, while, you know, we've been in tech, talk about those apps developed the last forty years, we've both been there, so- >> And that includes the iPhone apps, too, so that's actually a pretty impressive number when you think about the last ten years being included in that number. >> Absolutely, but if you think about it, we are still kind of teenagers when you think about that Andreson idea of software eating the world. You know, we're just kind of on the early appetizer, you know, the sorbet is coming to clear our palates before we go to the next course. But we're not even close to the main course. And so I think when you look at the kind of, the percentage of companies and industry process that is digital, that has been highly digitized. We're still early days, so to me, I think that's why. That the kind of the steady state of how much of an industry is kind of process and data flow is based on software. I'll just make up a number, you know, we may be a third of the way to whatever the steady state is. We've got two-thirds of the way to go. So to me, that supports growth of IT investment rising at double the rate of overall. Because it's sucking in and absorbing and transforming big pieces of the existing economy, >> So given the size of the market, given that all companies are tech companies. What are your thoughts on the narrative right now? You're hearing a lot of pressure from, you know, public policy to break up big tech. And we saw, you know you and I were there when Microsoft, and I would argue, they were, you know, breaking the law. Okay, the Department of Justice did the right thing, and they put handcuffs on them. >> Yeah. >> But they never really, you know, went after the whole breakup scenario, and you hear a lot of that, a lot of the vitriol. Do you think that makes sense? To break up big tech and what would the result be? >> You don't think I'm going to step on those land mines, do you? >> Okay well I've got an opinion. >> Alright I'll give you mine then. Alright, since- >> I mean, I'll lay it out there, I just think if you break up big tech the little techs are going to get bigger. It's going to be like AT&T all over again. The other thing I would add is if you want to go after China for, you know, IP theft, okay fine, but why would you attack the AI leaders? Now, if they're breaking the law, that should not be allowed. I'm not for you know, monopolistic, you know, illegal behavior. What are your thoughts? >> Alright, you've convinced me to answer this question. >> We're having a conversation- >> Nothing like a little competitive juice going. You're totally wrong. >> Lay it out for me. >> No, I think, but this has been a recurring pattern, as you were saying, it even goes back further to you know, AT&T and people wanting to connect other people to the chiraphone, and it goes IBM mainframes, opening up to peripherals. Right, it goes back to it. Exactly. It goes back to the wheel. But it's yeah, to me it's a valid question to ask. And I think, you know, part of the story I was telling, that multiplied innovation story, and Bill Joy, Joy's Law is really about platform. Right? And so when you get aggregated portfolio of technical capabilities that allow innovation to happen. Right, so the great thing is, you know, you typically see concentration, consolidation around those platforms. But of course they give life to a lot of competition and growth on top of them. So that to me is the, that's the conundrum, because if you attack the platform, you may send us back into this kind of disaggregated, less creative- so that's the art, is to take the scalpel and figure out well, where are the appropriate boundaries for, you know, putting those walls, where if you're in this part of the industry, you can't be in this. So, to me I think one, at least reasonable way to think about it is, so for example, if you are a major cloud platform player, right, you're providing all of the AI services, the cloud services, the compute services, the block-chain services, that a lot of the sass world is using. That, somebody could argue, well, if you get too strong in the sass world, you then could be in a position to give yourself favorable position from the platform. Because everyone in the sass world is depending on the platform. So somebody might say you can't be in. You know, if you're in the sass position you'll have to separate that from the platform business. But I think to me, so that's a logical way to do it, but I think you also have to ask, well, are people actually abusing? Right, so I- >> I think it's a really good question. >> I don't think it's fair to just say well, theoretically it could be abused. If the abuse is not happening, I don't think you, it's appropriate to prophylactically, it's like go after a crime before it's committed. So I think, the other thing that is happening is, often these monopolies or power positions have been about economic power, pricing power, I think there's another dynamic happening because consumer date, people's data, the Facebook phenomenon, the Twitter and the rest, there's a lot of stuff that's not necessarily about pricing, but that's about kind of social norms and privacy that I think are at work and that we haven't really seen as big a factor, I mean obviously we've had privacy regulation is Europe with GDPR and the rest, obviously in check, but part of that's because of the social platforms, so that's another vector that is coming in. >> Well, you would like to see the government actually say okay, this is the framework, or this is what we think the law should be. I mean, part of it is okay, Facebook they have incentive to appropriate our data and they get, okay, and maybe they're not taking enough responsibility for. But I to date have not seen the evidence as we did with, you know, Microsoft wiping out, you know, Lotus, and Novel, and Word Perfect through bundling and what it did to Netscape with bundling the browser and the price practices that- I don't see that, today, maybe I'm just missing it, but- >> Yeah I think that's going to be all around, you know, online advertising, and all that, to me that's kind of the market- >> Yeah, so Google, some of the Google stuff, that's probably legit, and that's fine, they should stop that. >> But to me the bigger issue is more around privacy.6 You know, it's a social norm, it's societal, it's not an economic factor I think around Facebook and the social platforms, and I think, I don't know what the right answer is, but I think certainly government it's legitimate for those questions to be asked. >> Well maybe GDPR becomes that framework, so, they're trying to give us the hook but, I'm having too much fun. So we're going to- I don't know how closely you follow Facebook, I mean they're obviously big tech, so Facebook has this whole crypto-play, seems like they're using it for driving an ecosystem and making money. As opposed to dealing with the privacy issue. I'd like to see more on the latter than the former, perhaps, but, any thoughts on Facebook and what's going on there with their crypto-play? >> Yeah I don't study them all that much so, I am fascinated when Mark Zuckerberg was saying well now our key business now is about privacy, which I find interesting. It doesn't feel that way necessarily, as a consumer and an observer, but- >> Well you're on Facebook, I'm on Facebook, >> Yeah yeah. >> Okay so how about big IPOs, we're in the tenth year now of this huge, you know, tail-wind for tech. Obviously you have guys like Uber, Lyft going IPO,6 losing tons of money. Stocks actually haven't done that well which is kind of interesting. You saw Zoom, you know, go public, doing very well. Slack is about to go public. So there's really a rush to IPO. Your thoughts on that? Is this sustainable? Or are we kind of coming to the end here? >> Yeah so, I think in part, you know, predicting the stock market waves is a very tough thing to do, but I think one kind of secular trend is going to be relevant for these tech IPOs is what I was mentioning earlier, is that we've now had a ten, twelve year run of basically startups coming in and reinventing industries while the incumbents in the industries are basically sitting on their hands, or sleeping. So to me the next ten years, those startups are going to, not that, I mean we've seen that large companies waking up doesn't necessarily always lead to success but it feels to me like it's going to be a more competitive environment for all those startups Because the incumbents, not all of them, and maybe not even most of them, but some decent portion of them are going to wind up becoming digital giants in their own industry. So to me I think that's a different world the next ten years than the last ten. I do think one important thing, and I think around acquisitions MNA, and we saw it just the last few weeks with Google Looker and we saw Tab Low with Salesforce, is if that, the mega-cloud world of Microsoft, Ajer, and Amazon, Google. That world is clearly consolidating. There's room for three or four global players and that game is almost over. But there's another power position on top of that, which is around where did all the app, business app guys, all the suite guys, SAP, Oracle, Salesforce, Adobe, Microsoft, you name it. Where did they go? And so we see, we think- >> Service Now, now kind of getting big. >> Absolutely, so we're entering a intensive period, and I think again, the Tab Low and Looker is just an example where those companies are all stepping on the gas to become better platforms. So apps as platforms, or app portfolio as platforms, so, much more of a data play, analytics play, buying other pieces of the app portfolio, that they may not have. And basically scaling up to become the business process platforms and ecosystems there. So I think we are just at the beginning of that, so look for a lot of sass companies. >> And I wonder if Amazon could become a platform for developers to actually disrupt those traditional sass guys. It's not obvious to me how those guys get disrupted, and I'm thinking, everybody says oh is Amazon going to get into the app space? Maybe some day if they happen to do a cam expans6ion, But it seems to me that they become a platform fo6r new apps you know, your apps explosion.6 At the edge, obviously, you know, local. >> Well there's no question. I think those appcentric apps is what I'd call that competition up there and versus kind of a mega cloud. There's no question the mega cloud guys. They've already started launching like call center, contact center software, they're creeping up into that world of business apps so I don't think they're going to stop and so I think that that is a reasonable place to look is will they just start trying to create and effect suites and platforms around sass of their own. >> Startups, ecosystems like you were saying. Alright, I got to give you some rapid fire questions here, so, when do you think, or do you think, no, I'm going to say when you think, that owning and driving your own car will become the exception, rather than the norm? Buy into the autonomous vehicles hype? Or- >> I think, to me, that's a ten-year type of horizon. >> Okay, ten plus, alright. When will machines be able to make better diagnosis than than doctors? >> Well, you could argue that in some fields we're almost there, or we're there. So it's all about the scope of issue, right? So if it's reading a radiology, you know, film or image, to look for something right there, we're almost there. But for complex cancers or whatever that's going to take- >> One more dot connecting question. >> Yeah yeah. >> So do you think large retail stores will essentially disappear? >> Oh boy that's a- they certainly won't disappear, but I think they can so witness Apple and Amazon even trying to come in, so it feels that the mix is certainly shifting, right? So it feels to me that the model of retail presence, I think that will still be important. Touch, feel, look, socialize. But it feels like the days of, you know, ten thousand or five thousand store chains, it feels like that's declining in a big way. >> How about big banks? You think they'll lose control of the payment systems? >> I think they're already starting to, yeah, so, I would say that is, and they're trying to get in to compete, so I think that is on its way, no question. I think that horse is out of the barn. >> So cloud, AI, new apps, new innovation cocktails, software eating the world, everybody is a tech company. Frank Gens, great to have you. >> Dave, always great to see you. >> Alright, keep it right there buddy. You're watching The Cube, from Actifio: Data Driven nineteen. We'll be right back right after this short break. (bouncy electronic music)

>> live from Washington, D. C. It's the Cube covering a ws public sector summit. She wrote to you by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of the ES W s Public Sector summit here in Washington D. C. At the 10th annual eight of the U. S. Public sector summit. I'm your host Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Farrier. We're joined by Adelaide O'Brien. She is research director. Government digital transformation strategies at I. D. C. Government incites Thanks so much for coming on the show. Adelaide. >> Rebecca for having me. It's I'm pleased to be here today, >> so I want to just start really with just picking your brain about about the topic of this conference, which is about modernization of government. What is the state of play? How Where do you Where do you see things from where you sit? >> Well, as you know, the federal government right now has been under about a 10 year directive to go cloud first. And what we've seen is, you know, a lot of agencies not all but some of them have a struggled with that, Uh, and it hasn't really had the momentum of the velocity that as an analyst, I I'd like to see and s o last year. The current federal seo says that can put out a policy, and it was about actually moving to Cloud Smart. So it wasn't just to do cloud to be more efficient to save some of that money. That about 75,000,000 that's spent on maintaining legacy equipment. But it was actually thinking about using cloud to be very, very agile to help deliver better citizen services. And what's interesting is this. This whole concept of cloud smart is also very supportive. The Modernization Technology Act as well as the report to the president on it. Modernization. So last year we saw both executive and legislative support for agencies to move to cloud. >> So, as you said, it doesn't. But it's still from where you sit. Doesn't analyst. It still doesn't quite have the momentum and the velocity that you'd like to see. What do you see as the biggest obstacles? >> Well, and this was actually identified in Cloud Smart and yesterday and today I heard a lot of agencies talking about thes three aspects, and I think you know, 10 a W s is a great place to help them. So one of the first is security. And we know when agencies, you know, were first Ask Goto the cloud security was, you know, the biggest barrier in their organization to cloud. And and so I think it was the 3rd 8 of US Conference. It was actually in this building, and I know there's been but I wasn't the first to and I could remember is an analyst. I was so pleased that Teresa had Roger Baker, the CEO of Health and Human Services on stage, and they were talking about getting fed Reum certification, and I think it was one of the first. And it was it was thrilling that such a large agency had invested so much time and money about working with eight of us to get February certification. So to me that that was like, you know, an initial pushing a start, so security is just so so important. And now you've got, you know, so many different software providers working with Amazon. Eight of us on security on DH. Even today, at one of the breakout sessions, the senses really talked about because the CIA moved to eight of us, and they put their most sensitive information in the cloud they felt comfortable with putting the personally identifiable information in the cloud. I'II our census data information. >> If it's good enough for that for that kind of information, I can I can put my business >> exactly there, Tio. Exactly >> the question I want to get on the comm on the research side is competition of opportunities. Is Old Wick about old gore Amazon? Always the old guard, The old way of doing things. They're pretty much in the new class. Dev Ops. We've seen that on the enterprise side Certainly start ups, any jazz, these examples like Airbnb. You see those at conferences over the years that we have the example of these cloud Native Cos. How does government now look at suppliers as partners? Because the big debate is you picked the right cloud for the right workload. Work lotion to find cloud architecture. You can't just split clouds up amongst Microsoft, Google, Amazon and oracles of the world. The whole multi vendor equation shifts in this new paradigm. How do you see that playing out? >> Yes, it does. But I also see and what I've heard today over the last two days is, you know, agencies are actually looking for a partner who can grow with them and learn with them. And I heard that over and over again. You know, they want a cloud provider that you know, has skin in the game, and that actually helps them. And we've seen that they also want a cloud provider that's innovative. And, you know, one of my concerns is I learned about how you know, scale. Everything's about scale today, right? And how Amazon now has eight of us has scaled up so fast over the last couple of years and all the innovations that they're able to provide. And so the question is, how can you keep that culture alive? And, you know, it's kind of like that start up culture at eight of us, right? How can you keep that alive? And, you know, I think the answer did today and, you know, I wish I would have thought about the question in the way he talked about it. You know, when you get big, you get conservative right, because you have too much to lose and too much is at stake. and, you know, as an analyst, I'm seeing eight of us. Not only is a growing fantastically, but it's innovating, and I think that's what gives you than this innovation. The you know, you don't have to be a a Silicon Valley software company to innovate, and I think part of it comes from I think Theresa's said that 95% of A W S's roadmap is based upon what they hear from their customers. So you know that that ear to the ground knowing the government business, federal, state, local, is so, so >> important. This trend that's helping them to also is the move to sass with capabilities on digital using suffers a service business model. So again, it's all kind of timed up beautifully for these agencies that were slow to move in the past. This is an analyst, er, >> yeah, so So security is one of the things on Cloud Smart, and I think that was one of the biggest, biggest barriers to momentum. But the others acquisition. So there's three things about clouds smart that agencies are to pay attention to, and I think you know what's really helped in the acquisition is, you know, the standardization and not only the federal up certification. And, you know, eight of us is healthy cloud providers. Software's the service providers get Fed Ram certification. And so, in the end, this is announced at the conference last year of a TIO on a W s. Right, because it's an arduous process. If you don't know what you're doing, it can cost you a lot of money and take a lot of time. So, you know, eight of us is working with his partners, and that's all good for the government sector, right? Because the more vendors that go through certification, the more they trust them and the more they can trust, you know, the integrity of their data in the cloud. So the acquisition is the 2nd 1 But the 3rd 1 is the workforce, and I think you know, And he mentioned it today. You know, a lot of the resistance, and a lot of the inertia of cloud is not just the technology, it's training the workforce, and I, you know, I thought, it's so so important because it's not just an conversation any longer. Going to cloud is part of digital transformation. Is the foundation of it. And so that has to be a conversation with all levels of agency executives. And they have to agree Otherwise, you know, if you're innovating, you've got, you know, islands of innovation and you on the cloud you can start to Yes, you can pilot, but you can start to really get scale there and transform your whole business. And it's all about serving citizens better and innovating to serve them better and automating your processes. You know that's so important as well. >> So how would you describe the work force? I mean, when you think about the private sector, workforce, women, when in terms of cloud computing versus the government, you tend to think one is more bureaucratic. There is obviously more red tape may be slower moving. How What are you seeing? What are you hearing? >> Well, you know, at all levels of the workforce and especially in government, there's a big push now to automate everything. He and you know, the government at all levels. Federal state local realizes they're actually competing with the private sector for work source. And so, you know, historically, government would say, Well, what's the next skill and we better start preparing for that, right? What's what What's coming down the pike and we we need. And now it's like, How do we prepare for people who enter government and move in various different jobs and move in and out of government? And so when you think about that, that's a skill development and technology can help with that. But it's also a mindset of accepting the fact that people join government to serve, and they might leave and come back. And so that's very important, but also the in terms of cloud smart. The workforce has to be able to understand cloud and howto work with vendors, you know, and it's not necessarily, you know, owning your own equipment. But it's it's it's trusting your vendors and trusting them with your business and and how do you, you know, provide these solutions to the line of business folks? And in a way, I actually seen you the IT department become much more responsive to the line of business folks. And my advice, Teo government executives, especially the folks, is always think of yourself as a service right. Think of yourself as a service. You know that as a service to the line of business folks and, you know, help them understand what what they need, how they accomplished their mission. Maybe give them a short list of solutions to help them out, but really start tracking them. You know what they're accomplishing, and that will help fuel. Then you reinvestments help. You know where to spend your money next And really, you know, just fuel this whole mission accomplishment. >> One of the things that we've been talking a lot about on the Cube for for years is the new role of the chief data officer in any organizations. A lot of federal agencies air now, also putting in their own chief date officers. Can you talk a little bit about what you've seen and what and how they're being used? >> Yeah, so they're our chief data officers in the organization's it again. That's one of those skills were you know, government's going to compete with the private sector for them, and there's probably not enough to go around Andi. And so it's a very precious commodity. And, you know, it is especially like in your research organizations. You've got chief data officers there, but in a lot of the other areas. And, you know, especially in the civilian government, you may not be able to have your old, you know, chief Data officer. Right? You certainly have all the data, but you may not have someone like that. And that's where you know some of the things that that I that that I'm advising agencies to look for us who can help you, then give you some of these big data and you know, a I and ML solutions that your line of business folks Khun, start to interface and work with. And maybe you have Chief data officers set up the data fields initially, but that's where you've got to start to democracy eyes, you know, a I and m l. And because you're never gonna have enough Chief data officers in anyone organization to possibly calm through all of that data on DSO, that's again where technology can help. >> Great. Well, Adelaide, thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's been a pleasure. Having you >> was great being here. Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned. We will have more of the cubes. Live coverage of a ws public sector summit

>> Announcer: Live from Chicago, Illinois; it's theCUBE. Covering VeeamON 2018. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to the Windy City, everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, where we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise. This is our second day at VeeamON 2018, our second year. I'm Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman, my co-host. Phil Goodwin is here, he's a research director at IDC's storage systems and software group. Phil, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. >> Pleasure to be here today. >> So you've been to more VeeamONs than we have, so you've seen even a greater evolution, although we've been to a lot of VeeamUGs. We saw a lot of green. This company has painted Chicago in green. What's your take on the progression and ascendancy of Veeam beyond just being a virtualization specialist? >> Sure, obviously the most interesting thing about Veeam is how they really have become the high growth leader of this industry, and in many ways, kind of the darling of the industry because they've got a lot of the momentum, a lot of the attention that's going on in the data protection and recovery software space. I think what has really struck me over the years of these VeeamON conferences, and really from the very first one that I attended three years ago, is the degree to which there is an ecosystem that's been built up around the products that they have for things like disaster recovery as a service, backup as a service and so forth. Where people take the Veeam software, build it into their own products and go to market with that, and I think that's totally unique in the way they've done that compared to many of their competitors. >> Let's see, we're talking about 800 plus million dollars in bookings, mid-30% growth rates. I presume the data protection market's not growing that fast. >> No, although it's surprisingly strong. Last year it grew at about 7% rate. We don't expect it to keep going that fast but if you compare that to other stores' software, which is 1% to 2% or in some cases even negative, it's actually an area that's quite bright. >> Yeah it's grown much, much faster than the overall IT business, right? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. >> And so, why? Why is it growing faster? >> Well part of it's driven by capacity. A lot of the vendor models are associated with the capacity and so they charge upgrades every year and as data is growing at about 40% per year on a compound annual growth rate, that does cause customers to upgrade their licenses. But we're also seeing an acceleration in the deployment of applications so we expect IT organizations, according to our research, to add an additional 200 applications over the next 36 months. That's not a lot of new applications. What we find in many cases is what we would call the traditional incumbent vendors, who have their footprint within the enterprise, maintain that footprint in many cases, but those new applications have the opportunity to bring in new products and that's really where the opportunity for Veeam is. >> So part of the growth is somewhat artificial if I understand it in that it's pricing driven, and so that would suggest, given that data protection is largely insurance, that the CFOs are going to look at that line out and say, "Oh, this isn't sustainable." Unless, and I want to run this by you, research indicates that Fortune 1000 companies leave, over a three to four year period, billions of dollars each on the table because of not the most end-to-end or well-thought-out architected data protection solutions. Maybe that expands the TAM a little bit, but is that kind of growth sustainable? You've already sort of indicated it's not, but maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Right. The nature of threats has really changed a lot over the years too, so if you look back on computing, it used to be system failure, human error, and to some degree natural disaster were your biggest threats. Nowadays it's actually ransomware, malware, and other things that are much bigger threats than the traditional types of threats that organizations have dealt with. As the evolution of data protection has come about, what we've found is very much a willingness among IT organizations to not simply try and go with a single product, but to rather buy a best-in-class product for specific platforms. In the case of Veeam, I think they really did a very successful job of riding the virtual infrastructure wave when most of their competitors were architected specifically for second platform types of applications. >> Phil, one of the interesting things to watch in Veeam is their expansion beyond that virtualization. What insight can you give us about data protection and SAS and public cloud and service providers? A lot of those environments you would think that the platform or the provider might have a choice, so how does Veeam get in there? How much do customers really have choice there? >> That's really a great point because what is happening is we're moving data protection from the system level. We've moved it up to the virtualization layer and now it's really moving to the application layer, where it is the application developer whose building that data protection directly into their application. So what we're seeing is those application developers, which as you mentioned many are SAS applications on the web, building the data protection into their specific environment. But the other thing that's happening is IT organizations are suddenly realizing that much of that data that is in the web or with those SAS applications is not being protected according to the SLAs of the organization. They're using third party tools and applications like Veeam to bring that data back on site and to protect it according to what the requirements and government's requirements are. >> Okay, so let's unpack some of this. If I understood it correctly, going back to the developers, as architecting in the data protection approach, is that a result of the DeVops trend, infrastructure as code, or is it something else driving it? >> I think it's more being driven by the fact that these are discrete applications outside the data center. So if I'm inside the data center and I'm trying to protect 100 different applications, I may try and apply the same techniques to all of them, the same policies. But these are applications like Salesforce.com, or Payday, or other applications that are really, for lack of a better term, a single application. That environment really doesn't have to consider the other systems within a data center. >> So it's the SAS guy saying "one size fits all." >> Phil: For them, yes. >> Which, by the way, is an age-old problem inside the data center. Either you were not protected enough or you were paying too much. Do companies like Veeam solve that problem by providing more granularity and maybe aligning better with that? >> Yeah. They go attack the problem in a couple of different ways. First of all, they certainly have their traditional business within the data center, but they're also partnering with many of the cloud-based organizations like Azure and Amazon and others to be able to help organizations protect data they have in the cloud. Plus they're working with specific applications to be able to provide that kind of protection for a SAS app. >> I want to come back to something you were talking about with Stu about best of breeds. We do a lot of these shows. You talk to a lot of customers and a lot of technology companies. You get two ends of the spectrum. You get the best of breed guys like Veeam say, "Hey, we're best of breed, "why would you buy that old, clunky, "outdated backup capability?" And then, without naming names, you get the integrated full stack companies going, "Why would anybody buy from some tiny little company? "Oh yeah, okay they're 800 million, "but they can't do digital transformation and big data "and SAS and blah blah blah! "So why would anybody, who cares about backup?" So you have two completely counterpoised positions. How can you help us parse through that? >> I think a lot of it comes down to who is the actual consumer and buyer of the solution and that's indeed changing. What we're seeing much more is it is the application developer, the application provider, or even the line of business making the decision as to what applications are being deployed, as opposed to the central IT organization. So whereas the central IT organizations say "This is part of digital transformation," the business unit may be buying other applications. >> We talked a little earlier about money being left on the table. I don't know what your research shows but clearly there's opportunities there that's not being harvested today. From a cost-benefit analysis standpoint, I know it's one area that you focus on and spend some time there, is it a reasonable expectation that CFOs will actually look at that lost opportunity, that soft revenue that they're losing, which really is not that soft, and say, "Hey, we actually need "to increase our spending in this area?" >> Some of them, yes. What you really find is a maturity curve, of course, where you have some organizations that really have a very traditional view and have not tried to move forward. But our research is showing that about 60% of organizations have embarked on some kind of digital transformation, and that about 70% have a cloud-first perspective. Those organizations really are looking at those kinds of opportunities, both in terms of cost, opportunity cost or absolute cost, and saying, "How can we optimize this environment entirely?" >> If I were the CFO, and let's say I had the cash so I wasn't capital constrained, I would still say, "Look, this is insurance, "so figure out a way to get more value out of this data. "You got all of this data in the backup repository, "what can we do with that? "What analysis can we do? "Can we maybe be more efficient "with regard to how we do security?" It's like the US government. "Can we have this agency talk to that agency "and figure out a way we can get more leverage?" and really be putting pressure on them to do that. Is that an unreasonable expectation for CFOs? >> No, and in fact what our research has shown is that about 40% of organizations use their backup data sets for analytics. They also, about 30% of them, 33% use it for other purposes such as development and test, staging, others. So organizations really are trying to leverage that vast amount of information that they have for other purposes. One of the challenges that come out though is GDPR, the European regulation to the right to be forgotten and the way organizations have to be able to manage that data. Going into those data repositories, including backup data sets, to say "Okay, this is data "that we have to expunge by regulation." >> Phil, I wonder, we've been talking about the threats of GDPR and you might get sued or everything. The last few years, we've really been talking about how we get insights and data. Insights can transform businesses around data. Is GDPR a threat to this whole wave of getting value out of data? >> I don't think it's a threat to getting the value out of the data, I think it's a threat to how you manage that data. And the threat is much more widespread than many organizations realize. If you're doing business with anyone who is European or has traveled to Europe, and really any kind of footprint in that regard can potentially put your organization at risk if you're capturing any of that data. >> But that stat you just threw out was pretty interesting. The 40% percent of organizations that you surveyed are actually doing some types of analytics with their backup data. I would think that governance and compliance and GDPR related stuff, they're going to take, those 40% are going to take a similar approach to GDPR. Say, "Okay, guys, we got to do this. "Find some more value out of it, "or else get you in a headlock." Right? That's a huge number! >> Right, and one of the ways you do that is, and that Veeam has done is to open up APIs, application programming interfaces, to allow third party organizations to leverage that data repository and do that kind of analytics. Veaam, themselves, or any other backup vendor can't really leverage, or can't really do that, but by opening that up to third parties it increases that ecosystem and increases the value that IT organizations can get from their data and their investment. >> Some of your research. Maybe you can highlight some of the stuff you're proud of, fun stuff you've been working on, things that are current, recent, that you want to highlight to the audience. >> I think some of the interesting things, the trends in the industry really are that the kinds of things like backup and recovery and high availability and disaster recovery, we see really going into a continuum of availability. Where, if I can move data across geographies, and I can recover my application seamlessly regardless of where the data is, why do I ever need to have disaster recovery again? And in fact, that's where we believe availability is going, and in fact the theme for Veeam at this show is hyper-availability. One of the ways you do that is by placing the data in the right locations for that kind of recovery. Watching from the days of backing up once a day onto tape to continuous availability is actually a pretty interesting development. >> So who's doing a good job in this place? Sounds like Veeam is getting it done obviously, and the numbers speak for themselves. You got the startups, Cohesity, Rubrik, Zerto obviously plays in there. You have Veritas is supposedly retooling. You had Bill Coleman in there, former BEA guy who's supposedly put a lot of R and D into that. You got the leader in Dell EMC. Obviously they have a lot of resource, spend a lot of money, they're going through a retooling process. IBM has software defined everything. It seems like it's jump ball right now instead of wide open. >> It really is. You look at, you mentioned Dell EMC, they're focusing on IOT. Well IOT generates a phenomenal amount of data. What data needs to be captured, how does it need to be captured, protected, managed, is going to be a huge issue for organizations so that's a very interesting target. Veritas has been looking at their 360 data management and really taking a holistic view of data management and they're doing some very interesting things there. Commvault has done actually a pretty nice job of getting into some cloud-related kinds of things. And then finally as you mentioned, Rubrik and Cohesity, I would put them along with Veeam as probably the three companies that right now are disrupting this industry the most. There are probably certainly some other ones that are up and coming, but in terms of those that are really providing some disruption, I would probably go with those three. >> Alright, they're breaking down VeeamON 2017. Phil, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great stuff, really good analysis. Appreciate you having on. >> Pleasure, guys, take care. >> The trains are backing up. We're trying to jam everything in before they shut down our studio, so we'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)