(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 22. I'm John Ferer, host of the Cube. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunner Helickson, Vice President and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Edon Eja Director, Product Management of commercial software services aws. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >>Oh, it's a pleasure. >>You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloudnative developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you gotta check things out where, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we gotta commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunner, let's get in, get with you. What, what are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a, a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, is kind of the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's, that's a, that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? >>Because we've been doing it for, for 20 years. I think there, there's another, there's another aspect to this, to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these, these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And, and the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we've been go, as we go through the pandemic, we've had these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately it all boils down to it all. Both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very >>Interesting that, Well, that is interesting. I wanna just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybrid cloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you can, you have a service area in the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems, but now you've got the software side. Can you, how are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys are looking at that with Red Hat? What's, what's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but like that's a convergence at the same time. More security problems. >>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to kind of critical infrastructure, more eyeballs are on it. And so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's, that's okay. That's how the world works. And so certainly the, the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I've mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, we, we, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have, like you, you know, adults paying attention to the, how the software gets put together. >>And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. We can, I think the, in as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about kind of the management of that supply chain, proving the provenance, proving the, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. Yeah. And so it's gonna be interesting over the next few years, I think we're gonna have more rules are gonna come out. I see NIST has already, has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is gonna have to kind of pull together and, and really and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this >>Problem. That's awesome. A and Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there, you know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or, or something physical, they can always get the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears delayed, I'm gonna go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and, and what's going on inside them with respect open source. Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >>Yeah, thanks John. I think there, there are multiple layers to that. At, at the most basic level we are helping customers buy abstracting away all these data central constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they wanna scale it, the, the, the capacity is there for them to use now then that, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. >>And you know, you see that the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. So cus and then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build, build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together where we can build, we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platform like Red Hat Enterprise, Linux Rail or Red Hat OpenShift on, on aws. We call it Rosa. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that we, that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive and s you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we are helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually wanna deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software su sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on silicon angle here in the cube that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages, Gunner, because this is, this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned Rosa, which is Red Hat on, you know, on OpenShift, on aws. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are huge part of the talent value. In other words, the, the humans still need to be involved and having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud, has got scale and human interactions. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? Cuz this is interesting cuz this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >>Yeah, Yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that the kind of the, I it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and, and the physical infrastructure that you already have that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that the, combining it with the, the elasticity of a solution like aws, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and, and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody who's somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, so okay, but that gives you a platform and then what do you do with that platform? >>And if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that, that we had with running the rel workstation on aws. So you might think like, well why would anybody wanna run a workstation on, on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have the, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. They have workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's, if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from a home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of worth of worth of workstation equipment. >>And so combine the rail workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and on and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or, or, or working on. So it's a really interesting, it's, it was actually, this is an idea that I was actually born with the pandemic. Yeah. And, and it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, It's the lack of lack of talent, making sure that people are being put their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, opex heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >>That's a great example. I think that's illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in, in the cloud and then flex what you need when you need it at in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress data. You, you just more, you get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this NextGen cloud is going. This is where, where, where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to the, whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the work compute. I wanna put it there. If I wanna leverage more storage and networking, Well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing. It's gotta flex around what's, how are you guys simplifying this? >>Yeah, I think so for, I'll, I'll just give my point of view and then I'm, I'm very curious to hear what a not has to say about it, but the, I think and think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there's, there is a, technically like any solution that aan a nun's team and my team wanna put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? The things need to work well together, but that's not the, that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually the ensuring and operational consistency and operational simplicity so that everything is the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really in what, So when Aon and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support acquisition as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >>And on your, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making Collabo >>Yeah. Gun, Yeah. Gunner covered it. Well I think the, the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own point of views, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Ghana and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our, our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. Rosa that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, you know, we, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >>Great. That's awesome. That next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them, simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, What is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >>Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is. Or ever I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the, the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had. The talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the, the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this, this digital transformation journey that, that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as, as resilience, right? And and resilience is at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you, you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that that's how, that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's exact, that's how AON is, has approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right, assemble the right pieces to create a, a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and and unique context. Aon, is that, does that sound about right to you? Yeah, >>I think you covered it well. I, I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customer is like how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the, the planet. And I think that is where we have been also being very intentional and focused in how we design our data center. How we actually build our cooling system so that we, those are energy efficient. You know, we, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with arm processors Graviton three, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, we, there's the arm graviton, three arm processor chips, there are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD six comparable. So all those things that are also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our >>Platform. That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations and certainly moving workloads to the cloud running in more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it, but now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately, is as you not just lift and ship but re-platform and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and, and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline, what's the, what's the advice that you give customers? Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I think so. Whenever, when, when I get questions like this from from customers, the, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. It's one thing, it it, it is one way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there have to be, there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? >>And, and so things like Red Hat enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions if you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on premise, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >>And that, what's your thoughts on, on the simplification? >>Yeah, I mean think that when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, in today's, in the, especially in today's fast paced work. So, but the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know AWS over AWS has over a hundred thousand partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have all in, in my mind there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step and last but no needs, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners and that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is, which is a challenging step to take. >>Yeah. You know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red hats, well story history. I remember the days back when I was provisioning, loading OSS on hardware with, with CDs, if you remember, that was days gunner. But now with high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is like kind of my final question for the segment is then we'll get your reaction to is last year we talked about higher level services. I sat down with Adam Celski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, the all that, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay, For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but they're Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So you're starting to see the operational visibility gun around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid this, that it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or, or having a reaction to that statement? Because I, I think this is kind of the next gen super cloud-like capability. It's, it's, we're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think, well I think it's a very natural, I mean we used words like hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, if, I guess super cloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's, it's all, it's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is, which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can, so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have kind of uniform compliance across your estate so that you can have kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is a, this is, it's a very natural thing. >>They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, so fine if it, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multi-cloud and what's hybrid cloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >>And what's your reaction, cuz this is kind of the next gen benefits of, of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and, and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your, what's your view on that? >>Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running it WS outpost or you know, wave lent and these things. So, and, and it is, it is fear for customer to say, think that hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they wanna build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, Okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on premises. It is all one. They, they just use the same set of cli command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense, it's actually helps customers have that unification so that that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use? Where >>And on you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's gonna continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's gonna be all about operating these workloads at scale and all the, with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for reinvent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to bake the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube. >>Thanks. Thanks for having >>Us. Okay, this is the cube's coverage of ados Reinvent 22. I'm John Fur, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Chicago theCUBE is live on the floor at AnsibleFest 2022, the first in-person Ansible event that we've covered since 2019. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, great to be here. There's about 1400 to 1500 people here in person, the partner ecosystem is growing and evolving, and that's going to be one of the themes of our next conversation. >> CloudScale is continuing to change the ecosystem, and this segment with AWS is going to be awesome. >> Exactly, we've got one of our alumni back with us, Stefanie Chiras joins us again, senior vice president, partner ecosystem success at Red Hat. and Manasi Jagannatha is also here Global Alliance Manager at AWS. Ladies, welcome to the program. >> Both: Thank you. >> Manasi: Nice to be here. >> Stefanie: Yeah. >> So some exciting news that came out. First of all was great to see you on stage. >> Thank you. >> In front of a live audience. The community is, you talked about this before we went live. The Ansible is nothing, if not the community. So I can only imagine how great that felt to be on stage in front of live bodies announcing the next step with Ansible and AWS. Tell us about that. >> I mean, you can't compete with the energy that comes from a live event. And I remember the first AnsibleFest I came to, it's just this electric feeling born out of the community, born out of collaboration and getting together feeds that collaboration in a way that like nothing else. >> Lisa: Can't do it by video alone. >> You cannot. And so it was so fun cuz today was big news. We announced that Ansible will be available through the AWS marketplace, the next step in our partnership journey. And we've been hearing like most of our announcements, we do these because customers ask for them. And that's really what is key. And the combination of what Red Hat brings to the table and what AWS brings to the table. That's what underpins this announcement this morning. >> Talk about it from a customer demand perspective and how you are not only meeting customers where they are, but you're speaking their language. >> Manasi: Yeah. >> Yeah, there's a couple of aspects and then I want to pass it to Manasi because nothing speaks better than a customer experience. But the specifics I think of what come together is this is where technology, procurement, experience, accessibility all come together. And it took both of us in order to do that. But we actually talked about a great example today, the TransUnion. >> So we have TransUnion, they are a credit reporting company and they're a giant customer. They use RHEL, they use AWS services. So while they were transitioning to the cloud, the first thing they wanted to know was compliance, right? Like, how do we have guardrails around compliance? That was a key feature for them. And then the other piece was how do we scale without increasing the complexity? And then the critical piece was being able to integrate with the depth of AWS services without having to do it over and over again. So what TransUnion did was they basically integrated Ansible automation platform with the AWS Cloud Control API that gave them the flexibility To basically integrate with what, 200 plus services? And it's amazing to see them grow over time. >> What's interesting is that Amazon, obviously cloud has been awesome. We've been covering it since the beginning. DevOps infrastructures code was the dream. Now it's app says code, you have configuration code before that. As cloud goes next level here, we're starting to see a lot more higher level services on AWS being adopted by customers. And so I want to get into how the marketplace deal works. So what's in it for the customer? Because as they bring Ansible across the enterprise and edge, now we're seeing that develop. If I'm the customer, am I buying it through the marketplace? What's the mechanics of the deal? Can I just tap into the bill, explain the marketplace workflow or how it works? >> Yeah, I'd love to do that. So customers come to the marketplace for three key benefits, right? Like one is the consumption based model, pay as you go, you can get hourly, annual, and spot instances. For some services you even get per second billing, right? Like, that's amazing, that's one. And then the other piece is John and Stefanie, as you know, customers would love to draw down on their EDPs, right? Like they want a single- >> EDPs, explain that with acronym. >> It's enterprise discount program. So they want a single bill where they can use third party services and AWS services and they don't have to go through the hustle of saying, "Hey, let me combine all these different pieces." So combining that, and of course the power of Ansible, right? Like customers love Ansible, they've built playbooks. The beauty of it is whatever you want to build on AWS, there is most likely a playbook or a module that already exists. So they can just tap into that and build into- >> Operationally it's a purchasing through marketplace. >> And you know, I mean, being an engineer myself, we always often get caught up in the technology aspect. Like what's the greatest technology? And everyone, as Manasi said, everyone loves the technology of Ansible, but the procurement aspect is also so important. And this is where I think this partnership really comes together. It is natively, Ansible is now, natively integrated into AWS billing. So one bill, you go and you log in. Now you have a Red Hat subscription, you get all the benefits from Red Hat that comes along with that subscription. But the like Ansible is all about simplicity. This brings simplicity to that procurement model and it allows you to scale within your AWS cloud environment that you have set up. And as Manasi mentioned, pull in those other native services from AWS. It's Great. >> It's interesting one of the things that buzzword Lisa and I were just talking as in the industry is the word multiplayer. I've heard people say that's multiplayer software, kind of a gaming analogy. But what you guys are doing is setting up, once they go with Ansible in the marketplace, they're just buying as things get more collaborative off the marketplace. So it kind of streamlines, if I get this right. >> Stefanie: Yep. >> The purchasing process. So they're already in, they just use it's on the bill. Is that kind of how it works? >> Yep. >> Absolutely done, yeah. >> So it the customer has a partnership with us more on the technology side and this particular case and with AWS and the procurement side, it brings that together. >> So multiplayer software, is it multiplayer software? >> We like to talk about multi-partner solutions and I think this provides a new grounding for other partners to come in and build upon that with their services capabilities, with their other technology capabilities. So well clearly in my world, we talk about multi-partner. (both laughs) >> Well, what you're doing is empowering the developers. I know that Red Hat is one of its goals is let's make things much more seamless, much smoother for the developers as the buyer's journey has changed. And John, you've talked about that quite a bit. You're empowering those buyers to actually have a much simpler, streamlined process and to be able to start seeing automation become democratized across organizations. >> Yeah, and one of the things I love about the announcement as well is it pulls in the other values of Ansible automation platform in that simplicity model that you mentioned with like things like certified collections, certified collections that have been built by partners. We have built certified collections, to go along with this offering as well as part of the AWS offering that pulls in these other partner engagements together. And as you said, democratizes not only what we've done together, but what we've done with other partners together. >> Lisa: Right. >> Yeah. >> Can you kind of talk kind of about the depths of the partnership, the co-engineering, and sort of the evolution and the customer involvement in the expansion of the partnership? >> Yeah, I'd love to walk you through that. So we've had a longstanding partnership coming up on 15 years now Stefanie, can you believe it? >> Stefanie: Yeah. (laughs) >> 15 years we've been building, to give you some historical context, right? In back in 2008 we launched RHEL and in 2015 we supported SAP workloads on RHEL. And then the list goes on, right? Like we've been launching Graviton instances, Arm instances, Nitro. The key to be noted here is that every new instance Launch, RHEL has always been supported on day one, right? Like that's been our motto. So that's one. And then in 2021, as you know, we launched Rosa Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS. And that's helped customers with their modernization journey to AWS. So that's been context historically around where we were and where we are today. And now with Ansible, it just gives customer another tool in their arsenal, right? And then the goal is to make sure we meet customers where they are, give them all the Red Hat products that they love using on their hybrid workloads. >> Sounds like a lot is coming maybe at re:Invent too, coming up. >> Yeah. >> What's next? >> This is the beginning, right? We'll continue to grow and based upon not only laying the building blocks for what customers can build with, and you mentioned Lisa, right? We follow this journey that Manasi talked about because of what customers ask for. So it's always a new adventure to determine what'll come next based upon what we hear from our joint customers. >> On that front though, Stefanie, talk about the impact of the broader ecosystem that this is just scratching the surface. >> One of the things, and we've been going through a whole transformation at Red Hat about how we engage with the ecosystem. We've done organizational shifts, we've done a complete revamp of how we engage with the ecosystem. One of our biggest focus is to make sure that the partnerships that we have with one partner bring value to the rest of our partners. No better example than something like this when we work with AWS to create accessibility and capability through a procurement model that we know is important to customers. But that then serves as a launch point for other partners to build certified collections around or now around validated content, which we talked about today at AnsibleFest, that allows other partners to engage. And we're seeing a huge amount in services partners, right? Automation is so pervasive now as customers want to go out and scale. We're seeing services partners really come in and help customers go from, it's always challenging when you have a broad set of IT. You have cloud native over here, you have bare metal over here, you have virtual, it's complex. >> John: Yeah. >> There's sometimes an energy activation barrier to get over that initial automation. We're seeing partners come in with really skilled services capabilities to help customers get over that hump to consolidate with an automation plan. It gets them better equipped to do day one automation and day two automation. And that's where Ansible automation platform is going. It's not just about configuration management, it's about day two management as well. >> Talk about those barriers a little bit more and how Ansible and AWS together are helping customers really knock those out of the park. Another baseball reference for you. We see that a lot of organizations, the skills gap, which we've talked about already on the conversation today, but Ansible as being a facilitator of helping organizations to attract talent, to retain talent, but also customers that maybe don't know where to start or don't know how to determine the ROI that automating processes will bring. How can this partnership help customers nock those out of the park? >> So I'll start and then I'll pass it to Manasi here. But I think one of the key things in this particular partnership is just plain old accessibility. Accessibility, which public cloud has taught the world a new way to get fast access that consumption based pricing. Right you can get your hands on it, you can test it out, you can have a team go in and test it out, and then you can see it's built for scale. So then you can scale it as far as you want to go forward. We clearly have an ecosystem of services partners, so does AWS to help people then sort of take it to the next level as they want to build upon it. But to me the first step is about accessibility, getting your hands dirty. You can build it into those committed spend programs that you may have with AWS as well to try new things. But it's a great test bed. >> Absolutely. And then to add to what Stefanie said, together Red Hat and AWS, we have about a hundred thousand partners combined, right? Like resellers, sis, GSI, distributors. So the reach the combined partnership has just amplifies. >> Yeah, it's huge news. I think it's a big deal because you operationalize the heavy lifting of procurement for all your joint customers and the scale piece is huge. So congratulations. I think it's going to make a lot of money for Ansible. So good call there. My question is, as we hear here, the next level's edge. So AWS has been doing a ton of hybrids since outpost announcement years ago. Now you got all kinds of regional expansions, you've got local zones, you've got all kinds of new edge activity. So are there dots connecting here with the edge with Red Hat Ansible? >> Do you want- >> Yeah, so I think we see two trends with our customers, right? Like mainly I'm specifically talking about our RHEL customer base on AWS. We have almost hundreds to thousands of customers using RHEL on AWS. These are 90% of fortune 500 companies use RHEL, right? So with that customer base, they are looking to expand your point into the edge. There's outposts, there are so many hybrid environments that they're trying to expand in. So just adding Ansible, RHEL, Rosa, OpenShift, that entire makes, just gives customers that the plethora of products they need to run their workloads everywhere, right? Like we have certifications outpost, we have certifications with OpenShift, right? So it just completes the puzzle, if you- >> So it's a nice fit. >> Yeah. >> It is a really nice fit. And I love Edge and Edge once you start going distributed, this automation aspect is key for all the reasons, for security reasons to make sure you do it the same way every single time. It's just pervasive in it. But things like the Cloud Control API allow it to bridge into things like Outpost. It allows a simple way, one clean way to do API and then you can expand it out and get the value. >> So this is why you are on stage and you said that Ansible's going to expand the scope to be more enterprise architecture. >> Stefanie: That's right. >> That's essentially what you're getting at. This is now a distributed computing fabric at cloud scale on AWS. >> Stefanie: That's right. >> Did I get that right? >> Yep, and it touches all the different deployments you may have, on-prem, virtual, cloud native, you name it. >> So how do the people turn into architects? Cuz this is, again, we had this earlier conversation with Tom, multi-tool players, a baseball analogy I used. It's like signifies the best player, your customers are becoming multiple tool players or operators. The new operator is now the top talent. They got to run Ansible, they got to automate, they got to provide services to the cloud native developers. So this new role is emerging, it's not a cloud architect but it's, if it's going to be system architecture wide, what's this new person look like that's going to run all this? >> I think it's an interesting question. We were talking yesterday, actually, Tom and I were talking with the partners. We had Partner Day, the first ever at AnsibleFest yesterday, which was great. We got a lot of insight. They talked a lot about this platform focus, right? Customers are looking to create that platform so that the developers can come in and build upon it without compromising what they want to do. So I do think there's a move in that direction to say how do you create these platforms at a company that no compromises, but it provides that consistency. I would say one thing in partnerships like this, I think customer expectations on the partner ecosystem to have it be trusted is increasing. They expect us as we've done to have our engineers roll up their sleeves together to come to the table together. That's going to show up in our curated content. It's going to show up in our validated content. Those are the places I think where we come up from the bottom through our partnership and we help bridge that gap. >> John: Awesome. >> And trust was brought up a number of times this morning during the keynote. We're almost out of time here, but I think it's one of those words that a lot of companies use. But I think what you're showing is really the value in it from Ansible's perspective from AWS's perspective and ultimately the value in it for the customer. >> Stefanie: Yes. >> So I got to ask you one final question. >> Stefanie: Absolutely. >> And maybe as as reinvent is around the corner, what's next for the partnership? Obviously big news today, Manasi, looking down down the pipe- >> Stefanie: Big news today. >> What are some of the things that you think are going to become next that you can share? >> I mean at this point, and I'll pass it to Manasi to close us out, but we are continuing to follow, to meet our customers where they want to be. We are looking across our portfolio for different ways that customers want to consume within AWS. We'll continue to look at the procurement models through the partner programs that Manasi and the team have had. And to me the next step is really bringing in the rest of the ecosystem. How do we use this as a grounding step? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we are always listening to customer feedback and they want more Red Hat products in the marketplace. So that's where we'll be. >> In the marketplace. >> Congratulations great deal. >> Yes great work there guys. And customers always want more. That's the thing. But that's what keeps us going. So we love it. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you so much for joining John and me on the program today. It's been great to have you. And congratulations again. >> It's a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> For our guests and for John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from Chicago at AnsibleFest 2022. This is only day one of our coverage. We'll be back after a short break for more. (upbeat music)

>> From every ISV to solve the problems. You want there to be tools in place that you can use, either open source tools or whatever it is that help you build it. And slowly over time, that building will become easier and easier. So my question to you was, where do you see you playing? Do you see yourself playing to ISVs as a set of tools, which will make their life a lot easier and provide that work? >> Absolutely. >> If they don't have, so they don't have to do it. Or you're providing this for the end users? Or both? >> So it's a progression. If you go to the ISVs first, you're doomed to starved before you have time for that other option. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it's a question of phase, the phasing of it. And also if you go directly to end users, you can demonstrate the power of it and get the attention of the ISVs. I believe that the ISVs, especially those with the biggest footprints and the most, you know, coveted estates, they have already made massive investments at trying to solve decentralization of their software stack. And I believe that they have used it as a hook to try to move to a software as a service model and rope people into leasing their infrastructure. So if you look at the clouds that have been propped up by Autodesk or by Adobe, or you name the company, they are building proprietary makeshift solutions for decentralizing or hybrid clouding. Or maybe they're not even doing that at all and all they're is saying hey, if you want to get location agnosticness, then what you should just, is just move into our cloud. >> Right. >> And then they try to solve on the background how to decentralize it between different regions so they can have decent offerings in each region. But those who are more advanced have already made larger investments and will be more averse to, you know, throwing that stuff away, all of their makeshift machinery away, and using a platform that gives them high performance parallel, low level file system access, while at the same time having metadata-driven, you know, policy-based, intent-based orchestration to manage the diffusion of data across a decentralized infrastructure. They are not going to be as open because they've made such an investment and they're going to look at how do they monetize it. So what we have found with like the movie studios who are using us already, many of the app they're using, many of those software offerings, the ISVs have their own cloud that offers that software for the cloud. But what we got when I asked about this, 'cause I was dealt specifically into this question because I'm very interested to know how we're going to make that leap from end user upstream into the ISVs where I believe we need to, and they said, look, we cannot use these software ISV-specific SAS clouds for two reasons. Number one is we lose control of the data. We're giving it to them. That's security and other issues. And here you're talking about we're doing work for Disney, we're doing work for Netflix, and they're not going to let us put our data on those software clouds, on those SAS clouds. Secondly, in any reasonable pipeline, the data is shared by many different applications. We need to be agnostic as to the application. 'Cause the inputs to one application, you know, the output for one application provides the input to the next, and it's not necessarily from the same vendor. So they need to have a data platform that lets them, you know, go from one software stack, and you know, to run it on another. Because they might do the rendering with this and yet, they do the editing with that, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I think the further you go up the stack in the structured data and dedicated applications for specific functions in specific verticals, the further up the stack you go, the harder it is to justify a SAS offering where you're basically telling the end users you need to park all your data with us and then you can run your application in our cloud and get this. That ultimately is a dead end path versus having the data be open and available to many applications across this supercloud layer. >> Okay, so-- >> Is that making any sense? >> Yes, so if I could just ask a clarifying question. So, if I had to take Snowflake as an example, I think they're doing exactly what you're saying is a dead end, put everything into our proprietary system and then we'll figure out how to distribute it. >> Yeah. >> And and I think if you're familiar with Zhamak Dehghaniis' data mesh concept. Are you? >> A little bit, yeah. >> But in her model, Snowflake, a Snowflake warehouse is just a node on the mesh and that mesh is-- >> That's right. >> Ultimately the supercloud and you're an enabler of that is what I'm hearing. >> That's right. What they're doing up at the structured level and what they're talking about at the structured level we're doing at the underlying, unstructured level, which by the way has implications for how you implement those distributed database things. In other words, implementing a Snowflake on top of Hammerspace would have made building stuff like in the first place easier. It would allow you to easily shift and run the database engine anywhere. You still have to solve how to shard and distribute at the transaction layer above, so I'm not saying we're a substitute for what you need to do at the app layer. By the way, there is another example of that and that's Microsoft Office, right? It's one thing to share that, to have a file share where you can share all the docs. It's something else to have Word and PowerPoint, Excel know how to allow people to be simultaneously editing the same doc. That's always going to happen in the app layer. But not all applications need that level of, you know, in-app decentralization. You know, many of them, many workflows are pipelined, especially the ones that are very data intensive where you're doing drug discovery or you're doing rendering, or you're doing machine learning training. These things are human in the loop with large stages of processing across tens of thousands of cores. And I think that kind of data processing pipeline is what we're focusing on first. Not so much the Microsoft Office or the Snowflake, you know, parking a relational database because that takes a lot of application layer stuff and that's what they're good at. >> Right. >> But I think... >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Later entrance in these markets will find Hammerspace as a way to accelerate their work so they can focus more narrowly on just the stuff that's app-specific, higher level sharing in the app. >> Yes, Snowflake founders-- >> I think it might be worth mentioning also, just keep this confidential guys, but one of our customers is Blue Origin. And one of the things that we have found is kind of the point of what you're talking about with our customers. They're needing to build this and since it's not commercially available or they don't know where to look for it to be commercially available, they're all building themselves. So this layer is needed. And Blue is just one of the examples of quite a few we're now talking to. And like manufacturing, HPC, research where they're out trying to solve this problem with their own scripting tools and things like that. And I just, I don't know if there's anything you want to add, David, but you know, but there's definitely a demand here and customers are trying to figure out how to solve it beyond what Hammerspace is doing. Like the need is so great that they're just putting developers on trying to do it themselves. >> Well, and you know, Snowflake founders, they didn't have a Hammerspace to lean on. But, one of the things that's interesting about supercloud is we feel as though industry clouds will emerge, that as part of company's digital transformations, they will, you know, every company's a software company, they'll begin to build their own clouds and they will be able to use a Hammerspace to do that. >> A super pass layer. >> Yes. It's really, I don't know if David's speaking, I don't want to speak over him, but we can't hear you. May be going through a bad... >> Well, a regional, regional talks that make that possible. And so they're doing these render farms and editing farms, and it's a cloud-specific to the types of workflows in the median entertainment world. Or clouds specifically to workflows in the chip design world or in the drug and bio and life sciences exploration world. There are large organizations that are kind of a blend of end users, like the Broad, which has their own kind of cloud where they're asking collaborators to come in and work with them. So it starts to even blur who's an end user versus an ISV. >> Yes. >> Right? When you start talking about the massive data is the main gravity is to having lots of people participate. >> Yep, and that's where the value is. And that's where the value is. And this is a megatrend that we see. And so it's really important for us to get to the point of what is and what is not a supercloud and, you know, that's where we're trying to evolve. >> Let's talk about this for a second 'cause I want to, I want to challenge you on something and it's something that I got challenged on and it has led me to thinking differently than I did at first, which Molly can attest to. Okay? So, we have been looking for a way to talk about the concept of cloud of utility computing, run anything anywhere that isn't addressed in today's realization of cloud. 'Cause today's cloud is not run anything anywhere, it's quite the opposite. You park your data in AWS and that's where you run stuff. And you pretty much have to. Same with with Azure. They're using data gravity to keep you captive there, just like the old infrastructure guys did. But now it's even worse because it's coupled back with the software to some degree, as well. And you have to use their storage, networking, and compute. It's not, I mean it fell back to the mainframe era. Anyhow, so I love the concept of supercloud. By the way, I was going to suggest that a better term might be hyper cloud since hyper speaks to the multidimensionality of it and the ability to be in a, you know, be in a different dimension, a different plane of existence kind of thing like hyperspace. But super and hyper are somewhat synonyms. I mean, you have hyper cars and you have super cars and blah, blah, blah. I happen to like hyper maybe also because it ties into the whole Hammerspace notion of a hyper-dimensional, you know, reality, having your data centers connected by a wormhole that is Hammerspace. But regardless, what I got challenged on is calling it something different at all versus simply saying, this is what cloud has always meant to be. This is the true cloud, this is real cloud, this is cloud. And I think back to what happened, you'll remember, at Fusion IO we talked about IO memory and we did that because people had a conceptualization of what an SSD was. And an SSD back then was low capacity, low endurance, made to go military, aerospace where things needed to be rugged but was completely useless in the data center. And we needed people to imagine this thing as being able to displace entire SAND, with the kind of capacity density, performance density, endurance. And so we talked IO memory, we could have said enterprise SSD, and that's what the industry now refers to for that concept. What will people be saying five and 10 years from now? Will they simply say, well this is cloud as it was always meant to be where you are truly able to run anything anywhere and have not only the same APIs, but you're same data available with high performance access, all forms of access, block file and object everywhere. So yeah. And I wonder, and this is just me throwing it out there, I wonder if, well, there's trade offs, right? Giving it a new moniker, supercloud, versus simply talking about how cloud is always intended to be and what it was meant to be, you know, the real cloud or true cloud, there are trade-offs. By putting a name on it and branding it, that lets people talk about it and understand they're talking about something different. But it also is that an affront to people who thought that that's what they already had. >> What's different, what's new? Yes, and so we've given a lot of thought to this. >> Right, it's like you. >> And it's because we've been asked that why does the industry need a new term, and we've tried to address some of that. But some of the inside baseball that we haven't shared is, you remember the Web 2.0, back then? >> Yep. >> Web 2.0 was the same thing. And I remember Tim Burners Lee saying, "Why do we need Web 2.0? "This is what the Web was always supposed to be." But the truth is-- >> I know, that was another perfect-- >> But the truth is it wasn't, number one. Number two, everybody hated the Web 2.0 term. John Furrier was actually in the middle of it all. And then it created this groundswell. So one of the things we wrote about is that supercloud is an evocative term that catalyzes debate and conversation, which is what we like, of course. And maybe that's self-serving. But yeah, HyperCloud, Metacloud, super, meaning, it's funny because super came from Latin supra, above, it was never the superlative. But the superlative was a convenient byproduct that caused a lot of friction and flack, which again, in the media business is like a perfect storm brewing. >> The bad thing to have to, and I think you do need to shake people out of their, the complacency of the limitations that they're used to. And I'll tell you what, the fact that you even have the terms hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, private cloud, edge computing, those are all just referring to the different boundaries that isolate the silo that is the current limited cloud. >> Right. >> So if I heard correctly, what just, in terms of us defining what is and what isn't in supercloud, you would say traditional applications which have to run in a certain place, in a certain cloud can't run anywhere else, would be the stuff that you would not put in as being addressed by supercloud. And over time, you would want to be able to run the data where you want to and in any of those concepts. >> Or even modern apps, right? Or even modern apps that are siloed in SAS within an individual cloud, right? >> So yeah, I guess it's twofold. Number one, if you're going at the high application layers, there's lots of ways that you can give the appearance of anything running anywhere. The ISV, the SAS vendor can engineer stuff to have the ability to serve with low enough latency to different geographies, right? So if you go too high up the stack, it kind of loses its meaning because there's lots of different ways to make due and give the appearance of omni-presence of the service. Okay? As you come down more towards the platform layer, it gets harder and harder to mask the fact that supercloud is something entirely different than just a good regionally-distributed SAS service. So I don't think you, I don't think you can distinguish supercloud if you go too high up the stack because it's just SAS, it's just a good SAS service where the SAS vendor has done the hard work to give you low latency access from different geographic regions. >> Yeah, so this is one of the hardest things, David. >> Common among them. >> Yeah, this is really an important point. This is one of the things I've had the most trouble with is why is this not just SAS? >> So you dilute your message when you go up to the SAS layer. If you were to focus most of this around the super pass layer, the how can you host applications and run them anywhere and not host this, not run a service, not have a service available everywhere. So how can you take any application, even applications that are written, you know, in a traditional legacy data center fashion and be able to run them anywhere and have them have their binaries and their datasets and the runtime environment and the infrastructure to start them and stop them? You know, the jobs, the, what the Kubernetes, the job scheduler? What we're really talking about here, what I think we're really talking about here is building the operating system for a decentralized cloud. What is the operating system, the operating environment for a decentralized cloud? Where you can, and that the main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are the process scheduler, the thing that's scheduling what is running where and when and so forth, and the file system, right? The thing that's supplying a common view and access to data. So when we talk about this, I think that the strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk of it, talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications. >> Would you exclude--? >> Not a specific application that's been engineered as a SAS. (audio distortion) >> He'll come back. >> Are you there? >> Yeah, yeah, you just cut out for a minute. >> I lost your last statement when you broke up. >> We heard you, you said that not the specific application. So would you exclude Snowflake from supercloud? >> Frankly, I would. I would. Because, well, and this is kind of hard to do because Snowflake doesn't like to, Frank doesn't like to talk about Snowflake as a SAS service. It has a negative connotation. >> But it is. >> I know, we all know it is. We all know it is and because it is, yes, I would exclude them. >> I think I actually have him on camera. >> There's nothing in common. >> I think I have him on camera or maybe Benoit as saying, "Well, we are a SAS." I think it's Slootman. I think I said to Slootman, "I know you don't like to say you're a SAS." And I think he said, "Well, we are a SAS." >> Because again, if you go to the top of the application stack, there's any number of ways you can give it location agnostic function or you know, regional, local stuff. It's like let's solve the location problem by having me be your one location. How can it be decentralized if you're centralizing on (audio distortion)? >> Well, it's more decentralized than if it's all in one cloud. So let me actually, so the spectrum. So again, in the spirit of what is and what isn't, I think it's safe to say Hammerspace is supercloud. I think there's no debate there, right? Certainly among this crowd. And I think we can all agree that Dell, Dell Storage is not supercloud. Where it gets fuzzy is this Snowflake example or even, how about a, how about a Cohesity that instantiates its stack in different cloud regions in different clouds, and synchronizes, however magic sauce it does that. Is that a supercloud? I mean, so I'm cautious about having too strict of a definition 'cause then only-- >> Fair enough, fair enough. >> But I could use your help and thoughts on that. >> So I think we're talking about two different spectrums here. One is the spectrum of platform to application-specific. As you go up the application stack and it becomes this specific thing. Or you go up to the more and more structured where it's serving a specific application function where it's more of a SAS thing. I think it's harder to call a SAS service a supercloud. And I would argue that the reason there, and what you're lacking in the definition is to talk about it as general purpose. Okay? Now, that said, a data warehouse is general purpose at the structured data level. So you could make the argument for why Snowflake is a supercloud by saying that it is a general purpose platform for doing lots of different things. It's just one at a higher level up at the structured data level. So one spectrum is the high level going from platform to, you know, unstructured data to structured data to very application-specific, right? Like a specific, you know, CAD/CAM mechanical design cloud, like an Autodesk would want to give you their cloud for running, you know, and sharing CAD/CAM designs, doing your CAD/CAM anywhere stuff. Well, the other spectrum is how well does the purported supercloud technology actually live up to allowing you to run anything anywhere with not just the same APIs but with the local presence of data with the exact same runtime environment everywhere, and to be able to correctly manage how to get that runtime environment anywhere. So a Cohesity has some means of running things in different places and some means of coordinating what's where and of serving diff, you know, things in different places. I would argue that it is a very poor approximation of what Hammerspace does in providing the exact same file system with local high performance access everywhere with metadata ability to control where the data is actually instantiated so that you don't have to wait for it to get orchestrated. But even then when you do have to wait for it, it happens automatically and so it's still only a matter of, well, how quick is it? And on the other end of the spectrum is you could look at NetApp with Flexcache and say, "Is that supercloud?" And I would argue, well kind of because it allows you to run things in different places because it's a cache. But you know, it really isn't because it presumes some central silo from which you're cacheing stuff. So, you know, is it or isn't it? Well, it's on a spectrum of exactly how fully is it decoupling a runtime environment from specific locality? And I think a cache doesn't, it stretches a specific silo and makes it have some semblance of similar access in other places. But there's still a very big difference to the central silo, right? You can't turn off that central silo, for example. >> So it comes down to how specific you make the definition. And this is where it gets kind of really interesting. It's like cloud. Does IBM have a cloud? >> Exactly. >> I would say yes. Does it have the kind of quality that you would expect from a hyper-scale cloud? No. Or see if you could say the same thing about-- >> But that's a problem with choosing a name. That's the problem with choosing a name supercloud versus talking about the concept of cloud and how true up you are to that concept. >> For sure. >> Right? Because without getting a name, you don't have to draw, yeah. >> I'd like to explore one particular or bring them together. You made a very interesting observation that from a enterprise point of view, they want to safeguard their store, their data, and they want to make sure that they can have that data running in their own workflows, as well as, as other service providers providing services to them for that data. So, and in in particular, if you go back to, you go back to Snowflake. If Snowflake could provide the ability for you to have your data where you wanted, you were in charge of that, would that make Snowflake a supercloud? >> I'll tell you, in my mind, they would be closer to my conceptualization of supercloud if you can instantiate Snowflake as software on your own infrastructure, and pump your own data to Snowflake that's instantiated on your own infrastructure. The fact that it has to be on their infrastructure or that it's on their, that it's on their account in the cloud, that you're giving them the data and they're, that fundamentally goes against it to me. If they, you know, they would be a pure, a pure plate if they were a software defined thing where you could instantiate Snowflake machinery on the infrastructure of your choice and then put your data into that machinery and get all the benefits of Snowflake. >> So did you see--? >> In other words, if they were not a SAS service, but offered all of the similar benefits of being, you know, if it were a service that you could run on your own infrastructure. >> So did you see what they announced, that--? >> I hope that's making sense. >> It does, did you see what they announced at Dell? They basically announced the ability to take non-native Snowflake data, read it in from an object store on-prem, like a Dell object store. They do the same thing with Pure, read it in, running it in the cloud, and then push it back out. And I was saying to Dell, look, that's fine. Okay, that's interesting. You're taking a materialized view or an extended table, whatever you're doing, wouldn't it be more interesting if you could actually run the query locally with your compute? That would be an extension that would actually get my attention and extend that. >> That is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why I'm saying I think Hammerspace is more progressive on that front because with our technology, anybody who can instantiate a service, can make a service. And so I, so MSPs can use Hammerspace as a way to build a super pass layer and host their clients on their infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. And their clients can have their own private data centers and the MSP or the public clouds, and Hammerspace can be instantiated, get this, by different parties in these different pieces of infrastructure and yet linked together to make a common file system across all of it. >> But this is data mesh. If I were HPE and Dell it's exactly what I'd be doing. I'd be working with Hammerspace to create my own data. I'd work with Databricks, Snowflake, and any other-- >> Data mesh is a good way to put it. Data mesh is a good way to put it. And this is at the lowest level of, you know, the underlying file system that's mountable by the operating system, consumed as a real file system. You can't get lower level than that. That's why this is the foundation for all of the other apps and structured data systems because you need to have a data mesh that can at least mesh the binary blob. >> Okay. >> That hold the binaries and that hold the datasets that those applications are running. >> So David, in the third week of January, we're doing supercloud 2 and I'm trying to convince John Furrier to make it a data slash data mesh edition. I'm slowly getting him to the knothole. I would very much, I mean you're in the Bay Area, I'd very much like you to be one of the headlines. As Zhamak Dehghaniis going to speak, she's the creator of Data Mesh, >> Sure. >> I'd love to have you come into our studio as well, for the live session. If you can't make it, we can pre-record. But you're right there, so I'll get you the dates. >> We'd love to, yeah. No, you can count on it. No, definitely. And you know, we don't typically talk about what we do as Data Mesh. We've been, you know, using global data environment. But, you know, under the covers, that's what the thing is. And so yeah, I think we can frame the discussion like that to line up with other, you know, with the other discussions. >> Yeah, and Data Mesh, of course, is one of those evocative names, but she has come up with some very well defined principles around decentralized data, data as products, self-serve infrastructure, automated governance, and and so forth, which I think your vision plugs right into. And she's brilliant. You'll love meeting her. >> Well, you know, and I think.. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Peter. >> Just like to work one other interface which I think is important. How do you see yourself and the open source? You talked about having an operating system. Obviously, Linux is the operating system at one level. How are you imagining that you would interface with cost community as part of this development? >> Well, it's funny you ask 'cause my CTO is the kernel maintainer of the storage networking stack. So how the Linux operating system perceives and consumes networked data at the file system level, the network file system stack is his purview. He owns that, he wrote most of it over the last decade that he's been the maintainer, but he's the gatekeeper of what goes in. And we have leveraged his abilities to enhance Linux to be able to use this decentralized data, in particular with decoupling the control plane driven by metadata from the data access path and the many storage systems on which the data gets accessed. So this factoring, this splitting of control plane from data path, metadata from data, was absolutely necessary to create a data mesh like we're talking about. And to be able to build this supercloud concept. And the highways on which the data runs and the client which knows how to talk to it is all open source. And we have, we've driven the NFS 4.2 spec. The newest NFS spec came from my team. And it was specifically the enhancements needed to be able to build a spanning file system, a data mesh at a file system level. Now that said, our file system itself and our server, our file server, our data orchestration, our data management stuff, that's all closed source, proprietary Hammerspace tech. But the highways on which the mesh connects are actually all open source and the client that knows how to consume it. So we would, honestly, I would welcome competitors using those same highways. They would be at a major disadvantage because we kind of built them, but it would still be very validating and I think only increase the potential adoption rate by more than whatever they might take of the market. So it'd actually be good to split the market with somebody else to come in and share those now super highways for how to mesh data at the file system level, you know, in here. So yeah, hopefully that answered your question. Does that answer the question about how we embrace the open source? >> Right, and there was one other, just that my last one is how do you enable something to run in every environment? And if we take the edge, for example, as being, as an environment which is much very, very compute heavy, but having a lot less capability, how do you do a hold? >> Perfect question. Perfect question. What we do today is a software appliance. We are using a Linux RHEL 8, RHEL 8 equivalent or a CentOS 8, or it's, you know, they're all roughly equivalent. But we have bundled and a software appliance which can be instantiated on bare metal hardware on any type of VM system from VMware to all of the different hypervisors in the Linux world, to even Nutanix and such. So it can run in any virtualized environment and it can run on any cloud instance, server instance in the cloud. And we have it packaged and deployable from the marketplaces within the different clouds. So you can literally spin it up at the click of an API in the cloud on instances in the cloud. So with all of these together, you can basically instantiate a Hammerspace set of machinery that can offer up this file system mesh. like we've been using the terminology we've been using now, anywhere. So it's like being able to take and spin up Snowflake and then just be able to install and run some VMs anywhere you want and boom, now you have a Snowflake service. And by the way, it is so complete that some of our customers, I would argue many aren't even using public clouds at all, they're using this just to run their own data centers in a cloud-like fashion, you know, where they have a data service that can span it all. >> Yeah and to Molly's first point, we would consider that, you know, cloud. Let me put you on the spot. If you had to describe conceptually without a chalkboard what an architectural diagram would look like for supercloud, what would you say? >> I would say it's to have the same runtime environment within every data center and defining that runtime environment as what it takes to schedule the execution of applications, so job scheduling, runtime stuff, and here we're talking Kubernetes, Slurm, other things that do job scheduling. We're talking about having a common way to, you know, instantiate compute resources. So a global compute environment, having a common compute environment where you can instantiate things that need computing. Okay? So that's the first part. And then the second is the data platform where you can have file block and object volumes, and have them available with the same APIs in each of these distributed data centers and have the exact same data omnipresent with the ability to control where the data is from one moment to the next, local, where all the data is instantiate. So my definition would be a common runtime environment that's bifurcate-- >> Oh. (attendees chuckling) We just lost them at the money slide. >> That's part of the magic makes people listen. We keep someone on pin and needles waiting. (attendees chuckling) >> That's good. >> Are you back, David? >> I'm on the edge of my seat. Common runtime environment. It was like... >> And just wait, there's more. >> But see, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the lower level of what it takes to host and run applications. And that's the stuff to schedule what resources they need to run and to get them going and to get them connected through to their persistence, you know, and their data. And to have that data available in all forms and have it be the same data everywhere. On top of that, you could then instantiate applications of different types, including relational databases, and data warehouses and such. And then you could say, now I've got, you know, now I've got these more application-level or structured data-level things. I tend to focus less on that structured data level and the application level and am more focused on what it takes to host any of them generically on that super pass layer. And I'll admit, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the pass layer and I think it's valid to include, you know, higher levels up the stack like the structured data level. But as soon as you go all the way up to like, you know, a very specific SAS service, I don't know that you would call that supercloud. >> Well, and that's the question, is there value? And Marianna Tessel from Intuit said, you know, we looked at it, we did it, and it just, it was actually negative value for us because connecting to all these separate clouds was a real pain in the neck. Didn't bring us any additional-- >> Well that's 'cause they don't have this pass layer underneath it so they can't even shop around, which actually makes it hard to stand up your own SAS service. And ultimately they end up having to build their own infrastructure. Like, you know, I think there's been examples like Netflix moving away from the cloud to their own infrastructure. Basically, if you're going to rent it for more than a few months, it makes sense to build it yourself, if it's at any kind of scale. >> Yeah, for certain components of that cloud. But if the Goldman Sachs came to you, David, and said, "Hey, we want to collaborate and we want to build "out a cloud and essentially build our SAS system "and we want to do that with Hammerspace, "and we want to tap the physical infrastructure "of not only our data centers but all the clouds," then that essentially would be a SAS, would it not? And wouldn't that be a Super SAS or a supercloud? >> Well, you know, what they may be using to build their service is a supercloud, but their service at the end of the day is just a SAS service with global reach. Right? >> Yeah. >> You know, look at, oh shoot. What's the name of the company that does? It has a cloud for doing bookkeeping and accounting. I forget their name, net something. NetSuite. >> NetSuite. NetSuite, yeah, Oracle. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Oracle acquired them, right? Is NetSuite a supercloud or is it just a SAS service? You know? I think under the covers you might ask are they using supercloud under the covers so that they can run their SAS service anywhere and be able to shop the venue, get elasticity, get all the benefits of cloud in the, to the benefit of their service that they're offering? But you know, folks who consume the service, they don't care because to them they're just connecting to some endpoint somewhere and they don't have to care. So the further up the stack you go, the more location-agnostic it is inherently anyway. >> And I think it's, paths is really the critical layer. We thought about IAS Plus and we thought about SAS Minus, you know, Heroku and hence, that's why we kind of got caught up and included it. But SAS, I admit, is the hardest one to crack. And so maybe we exclude that as a deployment model. >> That's right, and maybe coming down a level to saying but you can have a structured data supercloud, so you could still include, say, Snowflake. Because what Snowflake is doing is more general purpose. So it's about how general purpose it is. Is it hosting lots of other applications or is it the end application? Right? >> Yeah. >> So I would argue general purpose nature forces you to go further towards platform down-stack. And you really need that general purpose or else there is no real distinguishing. So if you want defensible turf to say supercloud is something different, I think it's important to not try to wrap your arms around SAS in the general sense. >> Yeah, and we've kind of not really gone, leaned hard into SAS, we've just included it as a deployment model, which, given the constraints that you just described for structured data would apply if it's general purpose. So David, super helpful. >> Had it sign. Define the SAS as including the hybrid model hold SAS. >> Yep. >> Okay, so with your permission, I'm going to add you to the list of contributors to the definition. I'm going to add-- >> Absolutely. >> I'm going to add this in. I'll share with Molly. >> Absolutely. >> We'll get on the calendar for the date. >> If Molly can share some specific language that we've been putting in that kind of goes to stuff we've been talking about, so. >> Oh, great. >> I think we can, we can share some written kind of concrete recommendations around this stuff, around the general purpose, nature, the common data thing and yeah. >> Okay. >> Really look forward to it and would be glad to be part of this thing. You said it's in February? >> It's in January, I'll let Molly know. >> Oh, January. >> What the date is. >> Excellent. >> Yeah, third week of January. Third week of January on a Tuesday, whatever that is. So yeah, we would welcome you in. But like I said, if it doesn't work for your schedule, we can prerecord something. But it would be awesome to have you in studio. >> I'm sure with this much notice we'll be able to get something. Let's make sure we have the dates communicated to Molly and she'll get my admin to set it up outside so that we have it. >> I'll get those today to you, Molly. Thank you. >> By the way, I am so, so pleased with being able to work with you guys on this. I think the industry needs it very bad. They need something to break them out of the box of their own mental constraints of what the cloud is versus what it's supposed to be. And obviously, the more we get people to question their reality and what is real, what are we really capable of today that then the more business that we're going to get. So we're excited to lend the hand behind this notion of supercloud and a super pass layer in whatever way we can. >> Awesome. >> Can I ask you whether your platforms include ARM as well as X86? >> So we have not done an ARM port yet. It has been entertained and won't be much of a stretch. >> Yeah, it's just a matter of time. >> Actually, entertained doing it on behalf of NVIDIA, but it will absolutely happen because ARM in the data center I think is a foregone conclusion. Well, it's already there in some cases, but not quite at volume. So definitely will be the case. And I'll tell you where this gets really interesting, discussion for another time, is back to my old friend, the SSD, and having SSDs that have enough brains on them to be part of that fabric. Directly. >> Interesting. Interesting. >> Very interesting. >> Directly attached to ethernet and able to create a data mesh global file system, that's going to be really fascinating. Got to run now. >> All right, hey, thanks you guys. Thanks David, thanks Molly. Great to catch up. Bye-bye. >> Bye >> Talk to you soon.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Seaport in Boston. This is day two of theCUBES's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 different format this year for Red Hat Summit. You know we are used to the eight to 9,000 people big conferences, but this is definitely and a lot of developers this is definitely a smaller, more intimate, more abbreviated keynotes which I love that new style they've really catering to the virtual audience as well as the physical audience, a lot of good stuff going on last night in the Seaport, which a lot of fun Stephanie Chiras is here is the Senior Vice President of Partner Ecosystem Success at Red Hat. >> Yeah. >> On the move again, Stephanie love to see you. >> yeah. Thank you. It's great to be here with you and now in a little different bit of a role. >> Yeah, I'm happy that we're actually in Boston and we can meet face to face. >> Yes. >> We don't have to get in a plane, but you know we'll be on a lot of planes in the next few months. >> Yeah. >> But look, a new role for you in ecosystems. You are interviewing all the partners, which is very cool. So you get a big observation space as my friend Jeff Jonas would like to say. And so, but I'd like to observe the partner ecosystem in this new era is different. >> It's very different. >> I mean just press release is going back it's really deep engineering and really interesting flywheel approaches. How is the cloud and the hybrid cloud ecosystem and partner ecosystem different today? >> I think there's a couple of things, I think first of all cloud accelerating all the innovation, the whole cloud motion pulls in a cloud partner in addition to many of the other partners that you need to deploy a solution. So this makes almost every deployment a multi-partner deployment. So that creates the need not just for one on one partnerships between companies and vendors but really for a multi-partner experience. Right, how does an ISV work with a distributor work with a cloud vendor? How do you pull all of that together and I think at Red Hat, our view of being a platform company, we want to be able to span that and bring all of those folks together. So I see this transition going from a world of partnerships into a world of a networked ecosystem. And the real benefit is when you can pull together one ecosystem with another ecosystem, build that up and it really becomes an ecosystem of ecosystems. >> Well and I'm a fan, you're a multi tool star, so it may kind of makes you dangerous because you can talk tech in your technical roles. You've been a GM so you understand the business and that's really what it takes in the part of ecosystem. It can't be just technology and just engineering integration, it's got to be a business model associated with that. Talk about those two dimensions. >> And I think what we're seeing in the ecosystem is there are partners that you build with there are partners you service with, there are partners you sell with some do all three, some do two out of three. How do you work those relationships at the end of the day every partner in the ecosystem wants to bring their value to the customer. And their real goal is how do you merge those values together and I think as you know, right, I come from the technology and the product space. I love moving into this space where you look for those value and that synergy of value to bring better technology, a better procurement experience is often really important and simplicity of deployment to customers, but partners span everything we do. We develop with them, we build with them, we deploy with them, we service with them and all has to come together. >> So how do you make this simple for customers? I mean you're describing an increasingly complex environment. How do you simplify this? >> So a couple of things one, spot onto your point Paul, I think customer expectations now are more aggressive than they've ever been that the ecosystem has done pre-work before they show up. The customer doesn't want to be the one who's pulling together this from one vendor, this from another vendor and stitching it together themselves. So there's a number of things I think we've stepped in to try and do digital engagement for certification and deployment, the creation of operators on OpenShift is one way that technology from partners can be done and enabled more easily and quickly with Red Hat platforms. I think in addition, you've seen. >> Can you go a little deeper on that? >> Sure. >> Explain that a little bit more what does that mean? Yeah, First off, we have a digital experience where partners can come in, they can certify and test their applications to run it on Red Hat platforms themselves. So it's a bit of a come one, come all. We also have an engineering team and a developer team to work side by side with them to build those into solutions. We've done things again to supplement that with capabilities of what we call validated patterns things we've done in the market with customers, with partners, we pull together a validated pattern, we put it onto GitHub so anyone can get access to it. It becomes kind of a recipe for deployment that's available for partners to come in and augment on top of that or customers can come in and pull it up GitHub and build off of it. So I feel like there's different layers in the sort of build model that we work with partners and you want to be able to on-ramp any partner wherever they want to influence their value. It could be at the base certification level, it could be even with RHEL 9 was a good one, right. RHEL 9 was the first version of RHEL that we deployed based upon the CentOS Stream model. CentOS Stream is an upstream version of RHEL very tightly tied into the development model but it allowed partners to engage with that code prior to deployment everything from hardware partners to ISV partners, it becomes a much more open way for them to collaborate with us, so there's so much we can do. >> What's the pitch to partners. I mean I know hybrid cloud is fundamental to your value proposition. I mean most people want hybrid cloud even though the cloud guys might not admit it, right, but so what's the pitch, how do you approach partners there's got to be a common theme there pitch me. >> I think one of the things when it comes to the Red Hat ecosystem is the ecosystem itself has to bring value. Yes, we at Red Hat want to bring value, we want to come in and make it easy and simple for you to access our technology when want to make it easy and simple to engage side by side in front of a customer. But at the end of the day the value of the Red Hat ecosystem is not only Red Hat, it's our partnerships with others. It's our partnerships with the hyperscalers, it's our partnerships with ISVs, it's our work in open source communities. So it's not about Red Hat being this sort of epicenter of the ecosystem. The value comes from the collective ecosystem as it stands, and I think we've made a number of changes here at the beginning of the year in order to create a end to end team within Red Hat that does everything from the build to the sell with all the way from end to end. And I think that's bringing a new layer of simplicity for our engagement with their partners, and it's allowing us to stitch together and introduce partners to partners. >> But you are a dot connector in a sense. >> Absolutely. >> And you can't do it all, I mean nobody can. >> Yeah. But especially Red Hat your strategy is not to do it all by design, so where's the big white spaces where you feel as though your strengths need to be complimented by the partners? >> Oh, I think you caught it spot on. We don't think we can do it all, we're a platform company, we know the value of hybrid cloud is all about bringing a flexibility of an ecosystem together. I think the places where we're really doubling down on is simplicity. So the Ansible announcement that we did right with Ansible automation platform on Azure. With that announcement, it brings in certified collections of ecosystem partners on that deployment. We do the work with Azure in order to do that deployment of Ansible automation platform, and then it comes with a set of certified collections that have been done with other partners. And I think those are the pieces where we can really double down on bringing simplicity. Right, so if I look at areas of focus, that's a great space, and I think it is all about connecting the dots, right, it's about connecting our work with Azure with our work with other ISV partners to pull that together and show up to a customer with something that's fast time to value. >> With so many partners to manage, how do you make sure you're not playing favorites. I guess how do you treat all partners equally or do you even try? >> We absolutely try. I think any partnership is a relationship, right, so it is what Red Hat brings to the table, it's also what the partner brings to the table. Our goal is to understand what the value is the partner wants to deliver to the customer. We focus on that and bringing that to the forefront of what we deploy. We absolutely in a hybrid world it's about choice and flexibility. Certainly there are partners and we made some announcements of course, this week, right yesterday and today with some we're continued to deepen our partnerships with those folks who are doubling down with us where their strategy is very well aligned with us. But our goal is to bring a broad ecosystem that offers customers choice. That's what hybrid cloud's all about. >> I remember years ago, your colleague Bob Pitino, I went down and met him in his office and he schooled me, he was awesome and we did a white board on alternative processors. >> Yeah. >> You guys were doing combat duty in the power division at the time. But basically he helped me understand the trend that is absolutely come true which is alternative processors. It's not just about the CPU anymore, it's about all the CPU and GPU and NPU and accelerators and all these other connected parts. You guys obviously are in the middle of that, you've got relationships with ARM, NVIDIA, Intel, we saw on stage today. Explain the importance and the trends that you see of these alternative processors and accelerators and what that means for customers in terms of the applications that they're now going to be able to tap. >> Yeah, so you know I love this topic when it comes. So one of the spaces is edge, right, we talked about edge today. Edge to me is the epitome of kind of a white space and an opportunity where ecosystem is essential. Edge is pulling together unique hardware capabilities from an accelerator all the way out to new network capabilities and then to AI applications. I mean the number of ISVs building AI applications is just expanding. So it's really that top to bottom ecosystem story, and our work with the telco comes in, our work with the ARM partners, the NVIDIA of the world, the accelerators of the world comes in edge. And then you pull it up to the applications as well. And then to touch in, we're seeing edge be deployed a lot in industries and industry verticals, right. A lot of edge deployments are tailored for a retail market or for a financial services sector. Again, for us, we rely very much on the ecosystem to go into industry verticals where platform companies. So our goal is to find those key partners in those industry verticals who speak the speak, talk the language, and we partner with them in order to support them and so this whole edge space pulls all of that together I think even out to the go to market with industry alignment. >> It's interesting to partner, so we're talking about Silicon, we could talk about that all day long. >> Yes. >> And then it spans and that we had Accenture on we had Raj yesterday. And it was interesting 'cause you think Accenture's like deep vertical industry expertise which it is but Raj's role is really cross industry, and then to tap into that industry expertise you guys had an announcement yesterday with those guys and obviously the GSIs are a key player. >> Absolutely. >> We saw a bunch of 'em last night out and about. >> Yeah. >> So talk about the importance of those relationships. >> I think we are in the announcement with Accenture is a great one, right. We're really doubling down because customers are looking to them, they're looking to the Accentures of the world to help them move into this hybrid world. It's not simple, it's not simple to deploy and get that value of the flexibility. So Accenture has built a number of tools in order to help customers on that journey which we talked about yesterday it really is a continuum of how customers adopt for their cloud space. And so us partnering with them offers a platform underneath, give them technology capabilities and Accenture is able to help customers and guide them along that journey and add a new layer of simplicity. So I think the GSI are critical in this space. >> Yeah. >> You talked about the number of companies developing AI, new AI tools right now. And it seems like there's just the pace of innovation is amazing, the number of startups is unprecedented. How do you decide who makes it into your partner system? What bars do they have to jump over to become a Red Hat partner? >> I think our whole partner structure is layered out quite honestly a bit in tiering, depending upon how much the partner is moving forward with Red Hat, how strategically we aligned our et cetera. But there is definitely a tier that is a come one come all, get your technology to work with Red Hat. We do that digitally now in the world of digital it's much easier to do that to give accessibility but there is definitely a tier that is a come one come all and participate. And then above that, it comes into tierings. How deeply do we go to do joint building to do co-creation and how do we sort of partner even on things like we have ARO and ROSA as you know which is OpenShift built with AWS with Azure those provide very deep technical engagements to bring that level of simplicity, but I would say it spans all the layers, right. We do have a dedicated engineering team to work with the ecosystem partners. We have a dedicated digital team to reach out and proactively right, invite folks to participate and encourage them through the thing and through the whole path. And we've done some things on enablement, we just made early March, we made enablement free for all our partners in order to learn more and get more skilled in Red Hat. Skills and skill creation is just critical for partners, and we want to start there right. >> So we started this conversation with how cloud ecosystems are different. And I think AWS as the mother of all ecosystems, so does Microsoft too but they've had it for a while. And I got felt like last decade partners were kind of afraid, all right, we're going to partner with a cloud vendor, but they're going to eat our lunch. I noticed last year at Reinvent that whole dynamic is changing and I think the industry's realizing this is not a zero sum game. That there's just so much opportunity especially when you start thinking about the edge. So you guys use the term hybrid, right, and John and I wrote a piece prior to Reinvent last year, we said there's something new brewing, we've got on-prem connecting to the clouds, it's going across clouds. People call that multi-cloud, but multi-cloud has been like multi-vendor. It really hasn't been a sort of strategy or a technical layer. And now you're talking the edge and we see the hyperscaler spending a hundred billion dollars a year on infrastructure. And now we see companies like yours and your ecosystem building on top of that. They're not afraid of it anymore, they're actually looking at it as a gift and so we coined this term called Supercloud which is a abstraction layer, and it rises above highs all the complexity of the underlying primitives and APIs and people kind of wince at the term Ashesh called it Metacloud which I like it's kind of fun. But do you feel like that's happening in the ecosystem? Is that a real trend or is that just my imagination? >> I think it's definitely a real trend and it's coming from customers, right, that's what customers want. So customers want the ability to choose are they going to self-manage their applications within a public cloud. There's much more than just technology in the public cloud too right. There's a procurement experience that they provide a simplicity of our relationship. They may choose one of the hyperscalers. They pick a procurement experience, they deepen that relationship, they leverage the services. And I think now what you're seeing is customers are demanding it. They want to be a part of that, they want to run on multiple clouds. And now we're looking at cloud services you've seen our strategy double down on cloud services. I think that kind of comes back together to a customer wants simplicity. They expect the ecosystem to work together behind the scenes. That's what capabilities like ARO are or OpenShift on Azure and OpenShift on AWS. That's what we can provide. We have an SRV team, we jointly support it with those partners behind the scenes but as you said, it's no longer that fear, right. We've rolled up our sleeves together specifically because we wanted to show up to the customer as one. >> Yeah, and by the way, it's not just traditional technology vendors, it's insurance companies, it's banks, it's manufacturers who are building out these so-called super clouds. And to have a super cloud, you got to have a super PaaS and OpenShift is the supers of all PaaS So Stephanie cheers, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE, >> Oh it's my pleasure. it great to see you again. >> Thank you for the time. >> All right, and thank you for watching keep it right there this is day two of Red Hat Summit 2022 from the Seaport in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Okay, we're back in theCUBE. We said we were signing off for the night, but during the hallway track, we ran into old friend Stu Miniman who was the Director of Market Insights at Red Hat. Stu, friend of theCUBE done the thousands of CUBE interviews. >> Dave, it's great to be here. Thanks for pulling me on, you and I hosted Red Hat Summit before. It's great to see Paul here. I was actually, I was talking to some of the Red Hatters walking around Boston. It's great to have an event here. Boston's got strong presence and I understand, I think was either first or second year, they had it over... What's the building they're tearing down right down the road here. Was that the World Trade Center? I think that's where they actually held it, the first time they were here. We hosted theCUBE >> So they moved up. >> at the Hines Convention Center. We did theCUBE for summit at the BCEC next door. And of course, with the pandemic being what it was, we're a little smaller, nice intimate event here. It's great to be able to room the hall, see a whole bunch of people and lots watching online. >> It's great, it's around the same size as those, remember those Vertica Big Data events that we used to have here. And I like that you were commenting out at the theater and the around this morning for the keynotes, that was good. And the keynotes being compressed, I think, is real value for the attendees, you know? 'Cause people come to these events, they want to see each other, you know? They want to... It's like the band getting back together. And so when you're stuck in the keynote room, it's like, "Oh, it's okay, it's time to go." >> I don't know that any of us used to sitting at home where I could just click to another tab or pause it or run for, do something for the family, or a quick bio break. It's the three-hour keynote I hope has been retired. >> But it's an interesting point though, that the virtual event really is driving the physical and this, the way Red Hat marketed this event was very much around the virtual attendee. Physical was almost an afterthought, so. >> Right, this is an invite only for in-person. So you're absolutely right. It's optimizing the things that are being streamed, the online audience is the big audience. And we just happy to be in here to clap and do some things see around what you're doing. >> Wonderful see that becoming the norm. >> I think like virtual Stu, you know this well when virtual first came in, nobody had a clue with what they were doing. It was really hard. They tried different things, they tried to take the physical and just jam it into the virtual. That didn't work, they tried doing fun things. They would bring in a famous person or a comedian. And that kind of worked, I guess, but everybody showed up for that and then left. And I think they're trying to figure it out what this hybrid thing is. I've seen it both ways. I've seen situations like this, where they're really sensitive to the virtual. I've seen others where that's the FOMO of the physical, people want physical. So, yeah, I think it depends. I mean, reinvent last year was heavy physical. >> Yeah, with 15,000 people there. >> Pretty long keynotes, you know? So maybe Amazon can get away with it, but I think most companies aren't going to be able to. So what is the market telling you? What are these insights? >> So Dave just talking about Amazon, obviously, the world I live in cloud and that discussion of cloud, the journey that customers are going on is where we're spending a lot of the discussions. So, it was great to hear in the keynote, talked about our deep partnerships with the cloud providers and what we're doing to help people with, you like to call it super cloud, some call it hybrid, or multi-cloud... >> New name. (crosstalk) Meta-Cloud, come on. >> All right, you know if Che's my executive, so it's wonderful. >> Love it. >> But we'll see, if I could put on my VR Goggles and that will help me move things. But I love like the partnership announcement with General Motors today because not every company has the needs of software driven electric vehicles all over the place. But the technology that we build for them actually has ramifications everywhere. We've working to take Kubernetes and make it smaller over time. So things that we do at the edge benefit the cloud, benefit what we do in the data center, it's that advancement of science and technology just lifts all boats. >> So what's your take on all this? The EV and software on wheels. I mean, Tesla obviously has a huge lead. It's kind of like the Amazon of vehicles, right? It's sort of inspired a whole new wave of innovation. Now you've got every automobile manufacturer kind of go and after. That is the future of vehicles is something you followed or something you have an opinion on Stu? >> Absolutely. It's driving innovation in some ways, the way the DOS drove innovation on the desktop, if you remember the 64K DOS limit, for years, that was... The software developers came up with some amazing ways to work within that 64K limit. Then when it was gone, we got bloatware, but it actually does enforce a level of discipline on you to try to figure out how to make software run better, run more efficiently. And that has upstream impacts on the enterprise products. >> Well, right. So following your analogy, you talk about the enablement to the desktop, Linux was a huge influence on allowing the individual person to write code and write software, and what's happening in the EV, it's software platform. All of these innovations that we're seeing across industries, it's how is software transforming things. We go back to the mark end reasons, software's eating the world, open source is the way that software is developed. Who's at the intersection of all those? We think we have a nice part to play in that. I loved tha- Dave, I don't know if you caught at the end of the keynote, Matt Hicks basically said, "Our mission isn't just to write enterprise software. "Our mission is based off of open source because open source unlocks innovation for the world." And that's one of the things that drew me to Red Hat, it's not just tech in good places, but allowing underrepresented, different countries to participate in what's happening with software. And we can all move that ball forward. >> Well, can we declare victory for open source because it's not just open source products, but everything that's developed today, whether proprietary or open has open source in it. >> Paul, I agree. Open source is the development model period, today. Are there some places that there's proprietary? Absolutely. But I had a discussion with Deepak Singh who's been on theCUBE many times. He said like, our default is, we start with open source code. I mean, even Amazon when you start talking about that. >> I said this, the $70 billion business on open source. >> Exactly. >> Necessarily give it back, but that say, Hey, this is... All's fair in tech and more. >> It is interesting how the managed service model has sort of rescued open source, open source companies, that were trying to do the Red Hat model. No one's ever really successfully duplicated the Red Hat model. A lot of companies were floundering and failing. And then the managed service option came along. And so now they're all cloud service providers. >> So the only thing I'd say is that there are some other peers we have in the industry that are built off open source they're doing okay. The recent example, GitLab and Hashicorp, both went public. Hashi is doing some managed services, but it's not the majority of their product. Look at a company like Mongo, they've heavily pivoted toward the managed service. It is where we see the largest growth in our area. The products that we have again with Amazon, with Microsoft, huge growth, lots of interest. It's one of the things I spend most of my time talking on. >> I think Databricks is another interesting example 'cause Cloudera was the now company and they had the sort of open core, and then they had the proprietary piece, and they've obviously didn't work. Databricks when they developed Spark out of Berkeley, everybody thought they were going to do kind of a similar model. Instead, they went for all in managed services. And it's really worked well, I think they were ahead of that curve and you're seeing it now is it's what customers want. >> Well, I mean, Dave, you cover the database market pretty heavily. How many different open source database options are there today? And that's one of the things we're solving. When you look at what is Red Hat doing in the cloud? Okay, I've got lots of databases. Well, we have something called, it's Red Hat Open Database Access, which is from a developer, I don't want to have to think about, I've got six different databases, which one, where's the repository? How does all that happen? We give that consistency, it's tied into OpenShift, so it can help abstract some of those pieces. we've got same Kafka streaming and we've got APIs. So it's frameworks and enablers to help bridge that gap between the complexity that's out there, in the cloud and for the developer tool chain. >> That's really important role you guys play though because you had this proliferation, you mentioned Mongo. So many others, Presto and Starbursts, et cetera, so many other open source options out there now. And companies, developers want to work with multiple databases within the same application. And you have a role in making that easy. >> Yeah, so and that is, if you talk about the question I get all the time is, what's next for Kubernetes? Dave, you and I did a preview for KubeCon and it's automation and simplicity that we need to be. It's not enough to just say, "Hey, we've got APIs." It's like Dave, we used to say, "We've got standards? Great." Everybody's implementation was a little bit different. So we have API Sprawl today. So it's building that ecosystem. You've been talking to a number of our partners. We are very active in the community and trying to do things that can lift up the community, help the developers, help that cloud native ecosystem, help our customers move faster. >> Yeah API's better than scripts, but they got to be managed, right? So, and that's really what you guys are doing that's different. You're not trying to own everything, right? It's sort of antithetical to how billions and trillions are made in the IT industry. >> I remember a few years ago we talked here, and you look at the size that Red Hat is. And the question is, could Red Hat have monetized more if the model was a little different? It's like, well maybe, but that's not the why. I love that they actually had Simon Sinek come in and work with Red Hat and that open, unlocks the world. Like that's the core, it's the why. When I join, they're like, here's a book of Red Hat, you can get it online and that why of what we do, so we never have to think of how do we get there. We did an acquisition in the security space a year ago, StackRox, took us a year, it's open source. Stackrox.io, it's community driven, open source project there because we could have said, "Oh, well, yeah, it's kind of open source and there's pieces that are open source, but we want it to be fully open source." You just talked to Gunnar about how he's RHEL nine, based off CentOS stream, and now developing out in the open with that model, so. >> Well, you were always a big fan of Whitehurst culture book, right? It makes a difference. >> The open organization and right, Red Hat? That culture is special. It's definitely interesting. So first of all, most companies are built with the hierarchy in mind. Had a friend of mine that when he joined Red Hat, he's like, I don't understand, it's almost like you have like lots of individual contractors, all doing their things 'cause Red Hat works on thousands of projects. But I remember talking to Rackspace years ago when OpenStack was a thing and they're like, "How do you figure out what to work on?" "Oh, well we hired great people and they work on what's important to them." And I'm like, "That doesn't sound like a business." And he is like, "Well, we struggle sometimes to that balance." Red Hat has found that balance because we work on a lot of different projects and there are people inside Red Hat that are, you know, they care more about the project than they do the business, but there's the overall view as to where we participate and where we productize because we're not creating IP because it's all an open source. So it's the monetizations, the relationships we have our customers, the ecosystems that we build. And so that is special. And I'll tell you that my line has been Red Hat on the inside is even more Red Hat. The debates and the discussions are brutal. I mean, technical people tearing things apart, questioning things and you can't be thin skinned. And the other thing is, what's great is new people. I've talked to so many people that started at Red Hat as interns and will stay for seven, eight years. And they come there and they have as much of a seat at the table, and when I talk to new people, your job, is if you don't understand something or you think we might be able to do it differently, you better speak up because we want your opinion and we'll take that, everybody takes that into consideration. It's not like, does the decision go all the way up to this executive? And it's like, no, it's done more at the team. >> The cultural contrast between that and your parent, IBM, couldn't be more dramatic. And we talked earlier with Paul Cormier about has IBM really walked the walk when it comes to leaving Red Hat alone. Naturally he said, "Yes." Well what's your perspective. >> Yeah, are there some big blue people across the street or something I heard that did this event, but look, do we interact with IBM? Of course. One of the reasons that IBM and IBM Services, both products and services should be able to help get us breadth in the marketplace. There are times that we go arm and arm into customer meetings and there are times that customers tell us, "I like Red Hat, I don't like IBM." And there's other ones that have been like, "Well, I'm a long time IBM, I'm not sure about Red Hat." And we have to be able to meet all of those customers where they are. But from my standpoint, I've got a Red Hat badge, I've got a Red Hat email, I've got Red Hat benefits. So we are fiercely independent. And you know, Paul, we've done blogs and there's lots of articles been written is, Red Hat will stay Red Hat. I didn't happen to catch Arvin I know was on CNBC today and talking at their event, but I'm sure Red Hat got mentioned, but... >> Well, he talks about Red Hat all time. >> But in his call he's talking backwards. >> It's interesting that he's not here, greeting this audience, right? It's again, almost by design, right? >> But maybe that's supposed to be... >> Hundreds of yards away. >> And one of the questions being in the cloud group is I'm not out pitching IBM Cloud, you know? If a customer comes to me and asks about, we have a deep partnership and IBM will be happy to tell you about our integrations, as opposed to, I'm happy to go into a deep discussion of what we're doing with Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So that's how we do it. It's very different Dave, from you and I watch really closely the VMware-EMC, VMware-Dell, and how that relationship. This one is different. We are owned by IBM, but we mostly, it does IBM fund initiatives and have certain strategic things that are done, absolutely. But we maintain Red Hat. >> But there are similarities. I mean, VMware crowd didn't want to talk about EMC, but they had to, they were kind of forced to. Whereas, you're not being forced to. >> And then once Dell came in there, it was joint product development. >> I always thought a spin in. Would've been the more effective, of course, Michael Dell and Egon wouldn't have gotten their $40 billion out. But I think a spin in was more natural based on where they were going. And it would've been, I think, a more dominant position in the marketplace. They would've had more software, but again, financially it wouldn't have made as much sense, but that whole dynamic is different. I mean, but people said they were going to look at VMware as a model and it's been largely different because remember, VMware of course was a separate company, now is a fully separate company. Red Hat was integrated, we thought, okay, are they going to get blue washed? We're watching and watching, and watching, you had said, well, if the Red Hat culture isn't permeating IBM, then it's a failure. And I don't know if that's happening, but it's definitely... >> I think a long time for that. >> It's definitely been preserved. >> I mean, Dave, I know I read one article at the beginning of the year is, can Arvin make IBM, Microsoft Junior? Follow the same turnaround that Satya Nadella drove over there. IBM I think making some progress, I mean, I read and watch what you and the team are all writing about it. And I'll withhold judgment on IBM. Obviously, there's certain financial things that we'd love to see IBM succeed. We worry about our business. We do our thing and IBM shares our results and they've been solid, so. >> Microsoft had such massive cash flow that even bomber couldn't screw it up. Well, I mean, this is true, right? I mean, you think about how were relevant Microsoft was in the conversation during his tenure and yet they never got really... They maintained a position so that when the Nadella came in, they were able to reascend and now are becoming that dominant player. I mean, IBM just doesn't have that cash flow and that luxury, but I mean, if he pulls it off, he'll be the CEO of the decade. >> You mentioned partners earlier, big concern when the acquisition was first announced, was that the Dells and the HP's and the such wouldn't want to work with Red Hat anymore, you've sort of been here through that transition. Is that an issue? >> Not that I've seen, no. I mean, the hardware suppliers, the ISVs, the GSIs are all very important. It was great to see, I think you had Accenture on theCUBE today, obviously very important partner as we go to the cloud. IBM's another important partner, not only for IBM Cloud, but IBM Services, deep partnership with Azure and AWS. So those partners and from a technology standpoint, the cloud native ecosystem, we talked about, it's not just a Red Hat product. I constantly have to talk about, look, we have a lot of pieces, but your developers are going to have other tools that they're going to use and the security space. There is no such thing as a silver bullet. So I've been having some great conversations here already this week with some of our partners that are helping us to round out that whole solution, help our customers because it has to be, it's an ecosystem. And we're one of the drivers to help that move forward. >> Well, I mean, we were at Dell Tech World last week, and there's a lot of talk about DevSecOps and DevOps and Dell being more developer friendly. Obviously they got a long way to go, but you can't have that take that posture and not have a relationship with Red Hat. If all you got is Pivotal and VMware, and Tansu >> I was thrilled to hear the OpenShift mention in the keynote when they talked about what they were doing. >> How could you not, how could you have any credibility if you're just like, Oh, Pivotal, Pivotal, Pivotal, Tansu, Tansu. Tansu is doing its thing. And they smart strategy. >> VMware is also a partner of ours, but that we would hope that with VMware being independent, that does open the door for us to do more with them. >> Yeah, because you guys have had a weird relationship with them, under ownership of EMC and then Dell, right? And then the whole IBM thing. But it's just a different world now. Ecosystems are forming and reforming, and Dell's building out its own cloud and it's got to have... Look at Amazon, I wrote about this. I said, "Can you envision the day where Dell actually offers competitive products in its suite, in its service offering?" I mean, it's hard to see, they're not there yet. They're not even close. And they have this high say/do ratio, or really it's a low say/do, they say high say/do, but look at what they did with Nutanix. You look over- (chuckles) would tell if it's the Cisco relationship. So it's got to get better at that. And it will, I really do believe. That's new thinking and same thing with HPE. And, I don't know about Lenovo that not as much of an ecosystem play, but certainly Dell and HPE. >> Absolutely. Michael Dell would always love to poke at HPE and HP really went very far down the path of their own products. They went away from their services organization that used to be more like IBM, that would offer lots of different offerings and very much, it was HP Invent. Well, if we didn't invent it, you're not getting it from us. So Dell, we'll see, as you said, the ecosystems are definitely forming, converging and going in lots of different directions. >> But your position is, Hey, we're here, we're here to help. >> Yeah, we're here. We have customers, one of the best proof points I have is the solution that we have with Amazon. Amazon doesn't do the engineering work to make us a native offering if they didn't have the customer demand because Amazon's driven off of data. So they came to us, they worked with us. It's a lot of work to be able to make that happen, but you want to make it frictionless for customers so that they can adopt that. That's a long path. >> All right, so evening event, there's a customer event this evening upstairs in the lobby. Microsoft is having a little shin dig, and then serves a lot of customer dinners going on. So Stu, we'll see you out there tonight. >> All right, thanks you. >> Were watching a brewing somewhere. >> Keynotes tomorrow, a lot of good sessions and enablement, and yeah, it's great to be in person to be able to bump some people, meet some people and, Hey, I'm still a year and a half in still meeting a lot of my peers in person for the first time. >> Yeah, and that's kind of weird, isn't it? Imagine. And then we kick off tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Actually, Stephanie Chiras is coming on. There she is in the background. She's always a great guest and maybe do a little kickoff and have some fun tomorrow. So this is Dave Vellante for Stu Miniman, Paul Gillin, who's my co-host. You're watching theCUBEs coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll see you tomorrow. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, Massachusetts. We're here at the Seaport. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin is here. He's my cohost for the next day. We are going to dig in to the famous RHEL, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar Hellekson is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Nice to be here, Dave, Paul. >> RHEL 9 is, wow, nine, Holy cow. It's been a lot of iterations. >> It's the highest version of RHEL we've ever shipped. >> And now we're talking edge. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so, what's inside, tell us. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. The first is the hardware partners, right, because they rely on RHEL to light up all their delicious hardware that they're making, then you got application developers and the ISVs who rely on RHEL to be that kind of stable platform for innovation, and then you've got the operators, the people who are actually using the operating system itself and trying to keep it running every day. So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, which is something, as you know, RHEL success, and I think you talked about this with Matt, just in a few sessions earlier that the success of RHEL is really, hinges on our partnerships with the hardware partners and in this case, we've got, let's see, in RHEL 9 we've got all the usual hardware suspects and we've added, just recently in January, we added support for ARM servers, as general ARM server class hardware. And so that's something customers have been asking for, delighted to be shipping that in RHEL 9. So now ARM is kind of a first-class citizen, right? Alongside x86, PowerZ and all the other usual suspects. And then of course, working with our favorite public cloud providers. So making sure that RHEL 9 is available at AWS and Azure and GCP and all our other cloud friends, right? >> Yeah, you mentioned ARM, we're seeing ARM in the enterprise. We're obviously seeing ARM at the edge. You guys have been working with ARM for a long time. You're working with Intel, you're working with NVIDIA, you've got some announcements this week. Gunnar, how do you keep Linux from becoming Franken OS with all these capabilities? >> This is a great question. First is, the most important thing is to be working closely with, I mean, the whole point of Linux and the reason why Linux works is because you have all these people working together to make the same thing, right? And so fighting that is a bad idea. Working together with everyone, leaning into that collaboration, that's an important part of making it work over time. The other one is having, just like in any good relationship, having healthy boundaries. And so making sure that we're clear about the things that we need to keep stable and the places where we're allowed to innovate and striking the right balance between those two things, that allows us to continue to ship one coherent operating system while still keeping literally thousands of platforms happy. >> So you're not trying to suck in all the full function, you're trying to accommodate that function that the ecosystem is going to develop? >> Yeah, that's right. So the idea is that what we strive for is consistency across all of the infrastructures and then allowing for kind of optimizations and we still let ourselves take advantage of whatever indigenous feature might appear on, such an ARM chip or thus in a such cloud platform. But really, we're trying to deliver a uniform platform experience to the application developers, right? Because they can't be having, like there can't be kind of one version of RHEL over here and another version of RHEL over here, the ecosystem wouldn't work. The whole point of Linux and the whole point of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is to be the same so that everything else can be different. >> And what incentives do you use to keep customers current? >> To keep customers current? Well so the best thing to do I found is to meet customers where they are. So a lot of people think we release RHEL 9 at the same time we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8, we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7, all these are running at the same time, and then we also have multiple minor release streams inside those. So at any given time, we're running, let's say, a dozen different versions of RHEL are being maintained and kept up-to-date, and we do this precisely to make sure that we're not force marching people into the new version and they have a Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription, they should just be able to sit there and enjoy the minor version that they like. And we try and keep that going for as long as possible. >> Even if it's 10 years out of date? >> So, 10 years, interesting you chose that number because that's the end of life. >> That's the end of the life cycle. >> Right. And so 10 years is about, that's the natural life of a given major release, but again inside that you have several 10-year life cycles kind of cascading on each other, right? So nine is the start of the next 10-year cycle while we're still living inside the 10-year cycle of seven and eight. So lots of options for customers. >> How are you thinking about the edge? how do you define, let's not go to the definition, but at high level. (Gunnar laughing) Like I've been in a conference last week. It was Dell Tech World, I'll just say it. They were sort of the edge to them was the retail store. >> Yeah. >> Lowe's, okay, cool, I guess that's edgy, I guess, But I think space is the edge. (Gunnar chuckling) >> Right, right, right. >> Or a vehicle. How do you think about the edge? All the above or but the exciting stuff to me is that far edge, but I wonder if you can comment. >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of taxonomies out there for the edge. For me, I'm a simple country product manager at heart and so, I try to keep it simple, right? And the way I think about the edge is, here's a use case in which somebody needs a small operating system that deploys on probably a small piece of hardware, usually varying sizes, but it could be pretty small. That thing needs to be updated without any human touching it, right? And it needs to be reliably maintained without any human touching it. Usually in the edge cases, actually touching the hardware is a very expensive proposition. So we're trying to be as hands off as possible. >> No truck rolls. >> No truck rolls ever, right, exactly. (Dave chuckling) And then, now that I've got that stable base, I'm going to go take an application. I'll probably put it in a container for simplicity's sake and same thing, I want to be able to deploy that application. If something goes wrong, I need to build a roll back to a known good state and then I need to set of management tools that allow me to touch things, make sure that everything is healthy, make sure that the updates roll out correctly, maybe do some AB testing, things like that. So I think about that as, that's the, when we talk about the edge case for RHEL, that's the horizontal use case and then we can do specializations inside particular verticals or particular industries, but at bottom that's the use case we're talking about when we talk about the edge. >> And an assumption of connectivity at some point? >> Yeah. >> Right, you didn't have to always be on. >> Intermittent, latent, eventual connectivity. >> Eventual connectivity. (chuckles) That's right in some tech terms. >> Red Hat was originally a one trick pony. I mean, RHEL was it and now you've got all of these other extensions and different markets that you expanded into. What's your role in coordinating what all those different functions are doing? >> Yes, you look at all the innovations we've made, whether it's in storage, whether it's in OpenShift and elsewhere, RHEL remains the beating heart, right? It's the place where everything starts. And so a lot of what my team does is, yes, we're trying to make all the partners happy, we're also trying to make our internal partners happy, right? So the OpenShift folks need stuff out of RHEL, just like any other software vendor. And so I really think about RHEL is yes, we're a platform, yes, we're a product in our own right, but we're also a service organization for all the other parts of the portfolio. And the reason for that is we need to make sure all this stuff works together, right? Part of the whole reasoning behind the Red Hat Portfolio at large is that each of these pieces build on each other and compliment each other, right? I think that's an important part of the Red Hat mission, the RHEL mission. >> There's an article in the journal yesterday about how the tech industry was sort of pounding the drum on H-1B visas, there's a limit. I think it's been the same limit since 2005, 65,000 a year. We are facing, customers are facing, you guys, I'm sure as well, we are, real skills shortage, there's a lack of talent. How are you seeing companies deal with that? What are you advising them? What are you guys doing yourselves? >> Yeah, it's interesting, especially as everybody went through some flavor of digital transformation during the pandemic and now everybody's going through some, and kind of connected to that, everybody's making a move to the public cloud. They're making operating system choices when they're making those platform choices, right? And I think what's interesting is that, what they're coming to is, "Well, I have a Linux skills shortage and for a thousand reasons the market has not provided enough Linux admins." I mean, these are very lucrative positions, right? With command a lot of money, you would expect their supply would eventually catch up, but for whatever reason, it's not catching up. So I can't solve this by throwing bodies at it so I need to figure out a more efficient way of running my Linux operation. People are making a couple choices. The first is they're ensuring that they have consistency in their operating system choices, whether it's on premise or in the cloud, or even out on the edge, if I have to juggle three, four different operating systems, as I'm going through these three or four different infrastructures, that doesn't make any sense, 'cause the one thing is most precious to me is my Linux talent, right? And so I need to make sure that they're consistent, optimized and efficient. The other thing they're doing is tooling and automation and especially through tools like Ansible, right? Being able to take advantage of as much automation as possible and much consistency as possible so that they can make the most of the Linux talent that they do have. And so with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9, in particular, you see us make a big investment in things like more automation tools for things like SAP and SQL server deployments, you'll see us make investments in things like basic stuff like the web console, right? We should now be able to go and point and click and go basic Linux administration tasks that lowers the barrier to entry and makes it easier to find people to actually administer the systems that you have. >> As you move out onto these new platforms, particularly on the edge, many of them will be much smaller, limited function. How do you make the decisions about what features you're going to keep or what you're going to keep in RHEL when you're running on a thermostat? >> Okay, so let me be clear, I don't want RHEL to run on a thermostat. (everybody laughing) >> I gave you advantage over it. >> I can't handle the margins on something like that, but at the end. >> You're running on, you're running on the GM. >> Yeah, no that's, right? And so the, so the choice at the, the most important thing we can do is give customers the tools that they need to make the choice that's appropriate for their deployment. I have learned over several years in this business that if I start choosing what content a customer decide wants on their operating system I will always guess it wrong, right? So my job is to make sure that I have a library of reliable, secure software options for them, that they can use as ingredients into their solution. And I give them tools that allow them to kind of curate the operating system that they need. So that's the tool like Image Builder, which we just announced, the image builder service lets a customer go in and point and click and kind of compose the edge operating system they need, hit a button and now they have an atomic image that they can go deploy out on the edge reliably, right? >> Gunnar can you clarify the cadence of releases? >> Oh yeah. >> You guys, the change that you made there. >> Yeah. >> Why that change occurred and what what's the standard today? >> Yeah, so back when we released RHEl 8, so we were just talking about hardware and you know, it's ARM and X86, all these different kinds of hardware, the hardware market is internally. I tell everybody the hardware market just got real weird, right? It's just got, the schedules are crazy. We got so many more entrance. Everything is kind of out of sync from where it used to be, it used to be there was a metronome, right? You mentioned Moore's law earlier. It was like a 18 month metronome. Everybody could kind of set their watch to. >> Right. >> So that's gone, and so now we have so much hardware that we need to reconcile. The only way for us to provide the kind of stability and consistency that customers were looking for was to set a set our own clock. So we said three years for every major release, six months for every minor release and that we will ship a new minor release every six months and a new major release every three years, whether we need it or not. And that has value all by itself. It means that customers can now plan ahead of time and know, okay, in 36 months, the next major release is going to come on. And now that's something I can plan my workload around, that something I can plan a data center migration around, things like that. So the consistency of this and it was a terrifying promise to make three years ago. I am now delighted to announce that we actually made good on it three years later, right? And plan two again, three years from now. >> Is it follow up, is it primarily the processor, optionality and diversity, or as I was talking to an architect, system architect the other day in his premise was that we're moving from a processor centric world to a connect centric world, not just the processor, but the memories, the IO, the controllers, the nics and it's just keeping that system in balance. Does that affect you or is it primarily the processor? >> Oh, it absolutely affects us, yeah. >> How so? >> Yeah, so the operating system is the thing that everyone relies on to hide all that stuff from everybody else, right? And so if we cannot offer that abstraction from all of these hardware choices that people need to make, then we're not doing our job. And so that means we have to encompass all the hardware configurations and all the hardware use cases that we can in order to make an application successful. So if people want to go disaggregate all of their components, we have to let 'em do that. If they want to have a kind of more traditional kind of boxed up OEM experience, they should be able to do that too. So yeah, this is what I mean is because it is RHEL responsibility and our duty to make sure that people are insulated from all this chaos underneath, that is a good chunk of the job, yeah. >> The hardware and the OS used to be inseparable right before (indistinct) Hence the importance of hardware. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I'm curious how your job changes, so you just, every 36 months you roll on a new release, which you did today, you announced a new release. You go back into the workplace two days, how is life different? >> Not at all, so the only constant is change, right? And to be honest, a major release, that's a big event for our release teams. That's a big event for our engineering teams. It's a big event for our product management teams, but all these folks have moved on and like we're now we're already planning. RHEL 9.1 and 9.2 and 8.7 and the rest of the releases. And so it's kind of like brief celebration and then right back to work. >> Okay, don't change so much. >> What can we look forward to? What's the future look like of RHEL, RHEL 10? >> Oh yeah, more bigger, stronger, faster, more optimized for those and such and you get, >> Longer lower, wider. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. >> I am curious about CentOS Stream because there was some controversy around the end of life for CentOS and the move to CentOS Stream. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people including me are not really clear on what stream is and how it differs from CentOS, can you clarify that? >> Absolutely, so when Red Hat Enterprise Linux was first created, this was back in the days of Red Hat Linux, right? And because we couldn't balance the needs of the hobbyist market from the needs of the enterprise market, we split into Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, okay? So then for 15 years, yeah, about 15 years we had Fedora which is where we took all of our risks. That was kind of our early program where we started integrating new components, new open source projects and all the rest of it. And then eventually we would take that innovation and then feed it into the next version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The trick with that is that the Red Hat Enterprise Linux work that we did was largely internal to Red Hat and wasn't accessible to partners. And we've just spent a lot of time talking about how much we need to be collaborating with partners. They really had, a lot of them had to wait until like the beta came out before they actually knew what was going to be in the box, okay, well that was okay for a while but now that the market is the way that it is, things are moving so quickly. We need a better way to allow partners to work together with us further upstream from the actual product development. So that's why we created CentOS Stream. So CentOS Stream is the place where we kind of host the party and people can watch the next version of Red Hat Enterprise get developed in real time, partners can come in and help, customers can come in and help. And we've been really proud of the fact that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first release that came completely out of CentOS Stream. Another way of putting that is that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first version of RHEL that was actually built, 80, 90% of it was built completely in the open. >> Okay, so that's the new playground. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You took a lot of negative pushback when you made the announcement, is that basically because the CentOS users didn't understand what you were doing? >> No, I think the, the CentOS Linux, when we brought CentOS Linux on, this was one of the things that we wanted to do, is we wanted to create this space where we could start collaborating with people. Here's the lesson we learned. It is very difficult to collaborate when you are downstream of the product you're trying to improve because you've already shipped the product. And so once you're for collaborating downstream, any changes you make have to go all the way up the water slide and before they can head all the way back down. So this was the real pivot that we made was moving that partnership and that collaboration activity from the downstream of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to putting it right in the critical path of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development. >> Great, well, thank you for that Gunnar. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's great to, >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> See you and have a great day tomorrow. Thanks, and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. We start at 9:00 AM. East Coast time. I think the keynotes, we will be here right after that to break that down, Paul Gillin and myself. This is day one for theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll see you tomorrow, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCube's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, host of theCube, wall-to-wall coverage in-person and hybrid. The two great guests here, Manu Parbhakar, worldwide Leader, Linux and IBM Software Partnership at AWS, and Mike Evans, Vice President of Technical Business Development at Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCube. Love this conversation, bringing Red Hat and AWS together. Two great companies, great technologies. It really is about software in the cloud, Cloud-Scale. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John. >> So get us into the partnership. Okay. This is super important. Red Hat, well known open source as cloud needs to become clear, doing an amazing work. Amazon, Cloud-Scale, Data is a big part of it. Modern software. Tell us about the partnership. >> Thanks John. Super excited to share about our partnership. As we have been partnering for almost 14 years together. We started in the very early days of AWS. And now we have tens of thousands of customers that are running RHEL on EC2. If you look at over the last three years, the pace of innovation for our joint partnership has only increased. It has manifested in three key formats. The first one is the pace at which RHEL supports new EC2 instances like Arm, Graviton. You know, think a lot of features like Nitro. The second is just the portfolio of new RHEL offerings that we have launched over the last three years. We started with RHEL for sequel, RHEL high availability, RHEL for SAP, and then only last month, we've launched the support for knowledge base for RHEL customers. Mike, you want to talk about what you're doing with OpenShift and Ansible as well? >> Yeah, it's good to be here. It's fascinating to me cause I've been at Red Hat for 21 years now. And vividly remember the start of working with AWS back in 2008, when the cloud was kind of a wild idea with a whole bunch of doubters. And it's been an interesting time, but I feel the next 14 years are going to be exciting in a different way. We now have a very large customer base from almost every industry in the world built on RHEL, and running on AWS. And our goal now is to continue to add additional elements to our offerings, to build upon that and extend it. The largest addition which we're going to be talking a lot about here at the re:Invent show was the partnership in April this year when we launched the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS as a managed version of OpenShift for containers based workloads. And we're seeing a lot of the customers that have standardized on RHEL on EC2, or ones that are using OpenShift on-premise deployments, as the early adopters of ROSA, but we're also seeing a huge number of new customers who never purchased anything from Red Hat. So, in addition to the customers, we're getting great feedback from systems integrators and ISV partners who are looking to have a software application run both on-premise and in AWS, and with OpenShift being one of the pioneers in enabling both container and harnessing Kubernetes where ROSA is just a really exciting area for us to track and continue to advance together with AWS. >> It's very interesting. Before I get to ROSA, I want to just get the update on Red Hat and IBM, obviously the acquisition part of IBM, how is that impacting the partnership? You can just quickly touch on that. >> Sure. I'll start off and, I mean, Red Hat went from a company that was about 15,000 employees competing with a lot of really large technology companies and we added more than 100,000 field oriented people when IBM acquired Red Hat to help magnify the Red Hat solutions, and the global scale and coverage of IBM is incredible. I like to give two simple examples of people. One is, I remember our salesforce in EMEA telling me they got a $4 million order from a country in Africa theydidn't even know existed. And IBM had 100 people in it, or AT&T is one of Red Hat's largest accounts, and I think at one point we had seven full-time people on it and AT&T is one of IBM's largest accounts and they had two seven storey buildings full of people working with AT&T. So RHELative to AWS, we now also see IBM embracing AWS more with both software, and services, in the magnification of Red Hat based solutions, combined with that embrace should be, create some great growth. And I think IBM is pretty excited about being able to sell Red Hat software as well. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> And Manu I think you have, yeah. >> Yeah. I think there's also, it is definitely very positive John. >> Yeah. >> You know, just the joint work that Red Hat and AWS have done for the last 14 years, working in the trenches supporting our end customers is now also providing lot of Tailwinds for the IBM software partnership. We have done some incredible work over the last 12 months around three broad categories. The first one is around product, what we're doing around customer success, and then what we're doing around sales and marketing. So on the product side, we have listed about 15 products on Marketplace over the course of the last 12 to 15 months. And our goal is to launch all of the IBM Cloud Paks. These are containerized versions of IBM software on Marketplace by the first half of next year. The other feedback that we are getting from our customers is that, hey, we love IBM software running at Amazon, but we like to have a cloud native SaaS version of the software. So there's a lot of work that's going on right now, to make sure that many of these offerings are available in a cloud-native manner. And you're not talking with Db2 Cognos, Maximo, (indistinct), on EC2. The second thing that we're doing is making sure that many of these large enterprise customers are running IBM software, are successful. So our technical teams are attached to the hip, working on the ground floor in making customers like Delta successful in running IBM software on them. I think the third piece around sales and marketing just filing up a vibrant ecosystem, rather how do we modernize and migrate this IBM software on Cloud Paks on AWS? So there's a huge push going on here. So (indistinct), you know, the Red Hat partnership is providing a lot of Tailwinds to accelerate our partnership with IBM software. >> You know, I always, I've been saying all this year in Red Hat summit, as well as Ansible Fest that, distributed computing is coming to large scale. And that's really the, what's happening. I mean, you looking at what you guys are doing cause it's amazing. ROSA Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, very notable to use the term on AWS, which actually means something in the partnership as we learned over the years. How is that going Mike because you launched on theCube in April, ROSA, it had great traction going in. It's in the Marketplace. You've got some integration. It's really a hand in glove situation with Cloud-Scale. Take us through what's the update? >> Yeah, let me, let me let Manu speak first to his AWS view and then I'll add the Red Hat picture. >> Thanks Mike. John for ROSA is part of an entire container portfolio. So if you look at it, so we have ECS, EKS, the managed Kubernetes service. We have the serverless containers with Fargate. We launched ECS case anywhere. And then ROSA is part of an entire portfolio of container services. As you know, two thirds of all container workloads run on AWS. And a big function of that is because we (indistinct) from our customer and then sold them what the requirements are. There are two sets of key customers that are driving the demand and the early adoption of ROSA. The first set of customers that have standardized on OpenShift on-premises. They love the fact that everything that comes out of the box and they would love to use it on Arm. So that's the first (indistinct). The second set of customers are, you know, the large RHEL users on EC2. The tens of thousands of customers that we've talked about that want to move from VM to containers, and want to do DevOps. So it's this set of two customers that are informing our roadmap, as well as our investments around ROSA. We are seeing solid adoption, both in terms of adoption by a customer, as well as the partners and helping, and how our partners are helping our customers in modernizing from VMs to containers. So it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge priority for our container service. And over the next few years, we continue to see, to increase our investment on the product road map here. >> Yeah, from my perspective, first off at the high level in mind, my one of the most interesting parts of ROSA is being integrated in the AWS console and not just for the, you know, where it shows up on the screen, but also all the work behind what that took to get there and why we did it. And we did it because customers were asking both of us, we're saying, look, OpenShift is a platform. We're going to be building and deploying serious applications at incredible scale on it. And it's really got to have joint high-quality support, joint high-quality engineering. It's got to be rock solid. And so we came to agreement with AWS. That was the best way to do that, was to build it in the console, you know, integrated in, into the core of an AWS engineering team with Red Hat engineers, Arm and Arms. So that's, that's a very unique service and it's not like a high level SaaS application that runs above everything, it's down in the bowels and, and really is, needs to be rock solid. So we're seeing, we're seeing great interest, both from end users, as I mentioned, existing customers, new customers, the partner base, you know, how the systems integrators are coming on board. There's lots of business and money to be made in modernizing applications as well as building new cloud native applications. People can, you know, between Red Hat and AWS, we've got some, some models around supporting POCs and customer migrations. We've got some joint investments. it's a really ripe area. >> Yeah. That's good stuff. Real quick. what do you think of ROSA versus EKS and ECS? What's, how should people think about that Mike? (indistinct) >> You got to go for it Manu. Your job is to position all these (indistinct). (indistinct) >> John, ROSA is part of our container portfolio services along with EKS, ECS, Fargate, and any (indistinct) services that we just launched earlier this year. There are, you know, set of customers both that are running OpenShift on-premises that are standardized on ROSA. And then there are large set of RHEL customers that are running RHEL on EC2, that want to use the ROSA service. So, you know, both AWS and Red Hat are now continuing to invest in accelerating the roadmap of the service on our platform. You know, we are working on improving the console experience. Also one of the things we just launched recently is the Amazon controller to Kubernetes, or what , you know, service operators for S3. So over the next few years you will see, you know, significant investment from both Red Hat and AWS in this joint service. And this is an integral part of our overall container portfolio. >> And great stuff to get in the console. That's great, great integration. That's the future. I got to ask about the graviton instances. It's been one of the most biggest success stories, I think we believe in Amazon history in the acquisition of Annapurna, has really created great differentiation. And anyone who's in the software knows if you have good chips powering apps, they go faster. And if the chips are good, they're less expensive. And that's the innovation. We saw that RHEL now supports graviton instances. Tell us more about the Red Hat strategy with graviton and Arms specifically, has that impact your (indistinct) development, and what does it mean for customers? >> Sure. Yeah, it's pretty, it's a pretty fascinating area for me. As I said, I've been a Red Hat for 21 years and my job is actually looking at new markets and new technologies now for Red Hat and work with our largest partners. So, I've been tracking the Arm dynamics for awhile, and we've been working with AWS for over two years, supporting graviton. And it's, I'm seeing more enthusiasm now in terms of developers and, especially for very horizontal, large scale applications. And we're excited to be working with AWS directly on it. And I think it's going to be a fascinating next two years on Arm, personally. >> Many of the specialized processors for training and instances, all that stuff, can be applied to web services and automation like cloud native services, right? Is that, it sounds like a good direction. Take us through that. >> John, on our partnership with Red Hat, we are continuing to iterate, as Mike mentioned, the stuff that we've done around graviton, both the last two years is pretty incredible. And the pace at which we are innovating is improving. Around the (indistinct) and the inferential instances, we are continuing to work with Red Hat and, you know, the support for RHEL should come shortly, very soon. >> Well, my prediction is that the graviton success was going to be applied to every single category. You can get that kind of innovation with this on the software side, just really kind of just, that's the magical, that's the, that's the proven form of software, right? We've been there. Good software powering with some great performance. Manu, Mike, thank you for coming on and sharing the, the news and the partnership update. Congratulations on the partnership. Really good. Thank you. >> Excellent John. Incredible (indistinct). >> Yeah, this is the future software as we see, it's all coming together. Here on theCube, we're bringing all the action, software being powered by chips, is theCube coverage of AWS re:invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(light, upbeat music) >> The last decade of cloud computing introduced and popularized an operating model that emphasized, simplified IT infrastructure provisioning and management. As well, it ushered in an era of consumption-based pricing and much more facile IT management, generally. Now these principles, they've bled into traditional data centers, which have increasingly become software led, programmable and DevOps centric. Now as we enter the post isolation era, it's ironic that not only are IT executives pursuing hybrid strategies, but everyone is talking about hybrid. Hybrid work, hybrid teams, hybrid events, hybrid meetings. The world has gone hybrid and the cloud is no exception. The cloud is expanding. Public cloud models are pushing to the data center and the edge on premises infrastructure is connecting to public clouds and managing data workflows and infrastructure across clouds and out to the edge. Now most leading technology executives that I speak with, they're essentially architecting their own clouds. And what I mean by that is they're envisioning and building an abstraction layer that hides the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and manages workloads intelligently. The end customer doesn't know or care where the data is, as long as it's secure, properly governed, and could be accessed quickly, all irrespective of physical location. Now for the most part, this vision, it can't be bought off the shelf. It needs to be built by placing bets on key technology partners and leveraging the so-called API economy. In other words, picking technology vendors that I trust in programmatically codifying and automating where possible my organizational edicts and business requirements into my own cloud to uniquely support my application portfolio in my modern business processes, which by the way, are rapidly evolving. Now, a key to enabling this vision is optionality. Meaning, not getting locked into one single technology platform, but rather having the confidence that as technology evolves, which it always does, I can focus my energies on adding value to my business through process innovation and human capital growth. Hello, everyone and welcome to this cube conversation and video exclusive on a major new industry development and partnership that's designed to maximize customer infrastructure options and move the new era of hybrid cloud computing forward. We have two industry leaders joining us today. Monica Kumar is the senior vice president of marketing and cloud go-to-market from Nutanix, and David Farrell is the senior vice president and general manager for global strategic alliances at Red Hat. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to be here today. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, so Red Hat is the poster child for open source success and it's executing on a strategy based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux, RHEL and OpenShift, the industry's leading container platform, to drive cloud-like experiences. Nutanix is a pioneering company and was the first to truly envision and successfully bring to market a cloud operating model to data center infrastructure. So you two, are getting together and forming a deeper, more substantive relationship. So Monica, tell us about the hard news. What's the scoop? >> Yeah, of course. So, first of all, I'm so excited to be here with David Farrell from Red Hat and for those of you who may not know this, I have a very deep personal connection with Red Hat from my previous role as well. I've been working with Red Hat since the early 2000s. So it gives me great pleasure to be here on behalf of Nutanix and with David from Red Hat, to be announcing a formal strategic partnership to deliver open hybrid multi-cloud solutions. Now let me explain to you what I mean by that. This partnership that we're announcing today is going to enable best-in-class solutions for building, scaling and managing containerized and virtualized cloud native applications in of course, hyper-converged infrastructure environments. So the collaboration is going to bring together these industry-leading technologies. Enabling and integrating Red Hat OpenShift and Red Hat Enterprise Linux, onto the Nutanix cloud platform, which includes, you know, our well-known Nutanix AOS and AHV hypervisor technologies. Now the question is, why are we doing all this? It's because of, as you said, Dave, the rapid evolution of hybrid cloud strategies and adoption of containers and Kubernetes in our customer base to develop, deploy and manage apps. And what we're hearing from our customers is that they want this integration between Red Hat Technologies and Nutanix Solutions. >> Okay. Thank you, Monica. So big news David, from Red Hat's perspective. Okay. So Red Hat, Nutanix, both leaders in their respective fields. David, what spurred the decision to partner from your standpoint? >> Yeah. And listen, let me echo Monica's comments as well. So we're really excited about the partnership with Nutanix. And we're excited because Nutanix is the leader in hybrid cloud infrastructure, but we're even more excited because this is what customers have been asking us to do. And that's really at the core of the decision. I think both teams, both companies have been listening to customers and we've got a groundswell of enterprise customers around the world that are asking us to come together. Bring our technologies together from a certification perspective, which Monica spoke about, right, is number one. So RHEL and OpenShift being certified on top of AHV, right. To provide the best-in-class service for enterprise grade applications, but there's more to it than just the certification. Like customers are looking for a world-class integrated support experience as well as they go into, into production. So we also have integrated support, right. So customers can contact Nutanix, they can contact Red Hat and having that seamless, that seamless experience is really, really critical and something that our customers have been asking us for. And then we'll continue to work from a roadmap perspective as well, from an engineering perspective, to make sure that our roadmaps are aligned and the customers have assurance over time and continuity over time so that they can make investments that they know are going to pay off and be safe investments and scalable investments over the long arc of their technology horizon, so. So those are, those are kind of our view of why this is good for customers and back to your points, David, it's about choice and optionality, right? And choice and consistency, and I think the verdict is in now, in the industry, that hybrid is the future, right? Everybody kind of agrees on that, right? In certain applications and certain workloads are going to run on-prem, others are going to run on the public cloud, and customers need choice to be able to decide what's the right destination for those workloads. And that's what Red Hat's all about, that's what RHEL's all about, what OpenShift is all about, is that it runs on any cloud infrastructure. Now it runs on Nutanix HCI. >> So I liked that two, one virtual throat to choke, or maybe better put, maybe one virtual hand to shake. So David staying with you, maybe you could talk about some of the other key terms of the partnership. Maybe focus on joint solutions that the customers can expect and I'm particularly interested in the engineering collaboration. I know there's a go-to-market component, but the engineering collaboration and technology innovation that we can expect. >> Yeah. So there's a few components to it, David. One is, obviously as I talked about roadmap, right. And that's, you know, our technology teams coming together, looking at the existing roadmaps for RHEL and OpenShift, but also adjacent capabilities that are coming from the Red Hat portfolio and capabilities that are coming from our ISV ecosystems and our respective ecosystems. This is a big win for our partners, as well, that have been asking us to work together. So we'll continue to keep the radar up about what some of those functionalities and capabilities ought to be. Whether we make them or somebody else makes them to pull into the, pull into the strategy, if you will. The second big principle around joint engineering is going to be around customer experience, right. So for example, we're starting off with the agnostic installer and by the way, this is coming Thursday, right? I think we're live on Thursday, the 29th, right? So this is in market, it is GA, it's available today, the 29th, right. And then we will move to the, to the UPI- so sorry, to the IPI installer in the second half of this year, right. To provide a more automated experience and then I think on the Nutanix side, Monica can, can talk to this, that Nutanix is building APIs to also automate installation, right? So first and foremost, we're all about getting the solution and getting the jointly engineered technologies working together and providing a superior customer experience for our customers that are deploying Red Hat on top of Nutanix. And that's going to be the guiding, the guiding driver, if you will, for how we work together. >> Yeah. And let me add to that. Like you said, we are, the engineering is already bearing fruit for our customers, right. As of today, when we announcing, we already have certified versions of Red Hat Linux with AHV, number one. Number two, as you said, the agnostic installer is available. We will make the automated installer available so any customer can deploy OpenShift using the Nutanix cloud platform in the very near future, right. Those are the two sort of the beginnings of the engineering and this is going to, this is a longterm partnership, so we will continue to evolve the different configurations that we, you know, that we test and that we validate as well as we go on. So I'm really excited about the fact that we are going to be offering customers fully tested, validated configurations to deploy. (cross talk) >> Go ahead >> David if I may just in there as well, I mean, so that's on the engineering side, right. But there'll also be an important thing, customers expect us to cooperate in to engage proactively as we face them, right. So that both the Red Hat, part of the agreement is that both the Red Hat and the Nutanix field teams, right the customer teams, will also be enabled, right. We'll do technical enablement for our teams, stand up proof of technologies, right. So that we're burning in some of the technology, if you will, and working out the kinks before the customer has to, right. And this is also a key value proposition is we're doing this work upstream, both in the engineering teams and in the field engagement teams so that customers can get time to market, if you will, and speed of solution deployment. >> Got it. So we'd love to talk about the sweet spot, the ideal customer profile at ICP. So is there a particular type of customer Monica, that stands to benefit most from the partnership and the certifications that you're committing to? >> Yeah. I mean, if you look at, you know, cloud native app development, that's happening across all types of segments, but particularly, you know, enterprise customers running, in all industries practically, running tier one applications or building custom applications in the cloud would be a great focus for this. Our customers who are mature in their cloud native journeys and want to build and run cloud native workloads at scale would be another type of audience. I mean, when you really think about the gamut of customers we serve jointly together, it's all the way from, you know, mid-sized customers who are, who may want a complete solution that's built for them, to enterprise customers and even globals accounts that are actually doing a lot of custom application development and then deploying things at scale. So really, I mean, anybody who's developing applications, anybody who's running workloads, you know, database workloads, applications that they're building, analytics workloads, I think for all of them. This is a very beneficial solution and I would say specifically from a Nutanix customer perspective, we've had a demand for, you know, the certification with AHV and RHEL for a long time. So that's something our customers are very much looking forward to. We have a large number of customers who already are deploying that configuration and now they know it's fully tested, fully supported, and there's an ongoing roadmap from both companies to support it. And then as far as OpenShift goes, we are super excited about the possibilities of providing that optionality to customers and really meeting them at every level of their journey to the cloud. >> So you got the product level certifications, that to me is all about trust and it's kind of table stakes, but if I have that, now I can, I can lean in. What other kind of value dimensions should we be thinking about with regard to this, this partnership? I mean, obviously, you know, cost savings, you know, speed, things like that, but maybe you could sort of add more color to that. >> Yeah. Well, absolutely, look. I mean, anytime there's joint there's integration, there is complexity that's taken out of deployment from the customer's hands and the vendors do the work upfront, that results in a lot of different benefits. Including productivity benefits, speed to market benefits, total cost of ownership benefits, as you said. So we expect that the fact that the two companies are now going to do all this work upfront for our customers, they'll be able to deploy and do things that we're doing, you know, much faster than before, right? So that's, you know, definitely we believe, and then also joined support. I think David mentioned that, the fact that we are offering joint support as well to our customers we'll be problem solving together. So the seamless support experience will provide faster resolution for our joint customers. >> Great. David, I wonder if you could kind of share your view of you know, thinking about the Nutanix cloud platform, what makes it well suited for supporting OpenShift and cloud native workloads? >> Well, I think the, look first off, they're the leader, right. They bring the most trusted and tried HCI environment in the industry to bear for customers, right. And they deliver on the promises that Monica just went through, right, around simplicity, around ease of use, around scalability, around optionality, right. And they take that complexity away and that's what customers I think are telling both Red Hat and Nutanix, and really everybody for that matter, right. Is that they want to focus on the business outcomes, on the business value, on the applications, that differentiate them. And Nutanix really takes away a lot of that complexity for the customer at the infrastructure level, right. And then RHEL, and OpenShift and Red Hat do that as well, both at the infrastructure level and at the application level, right. So when it comes to simplicity, and when it comes to choice, but consistency, both Nutanix and Red Hat have that at the core of how we build and how we engineer products that we take to market to remove that complexity so the customers can move quickly, more cost-effectively, and have that optionality that they're after. >> Yeah and David, if I may add to that, and thank you again for saying the things you said, that's exactly why our customers choose us. One of the key factors is our distributed architecture as well, because of the way it's architected, the Nutanix cloud platform delivers an environment that's highly scalable and resilient, and it's well suited for enterprise deployments of Red Hat, OpenShift at scale. The platform also includes, you know, fully integrated unified storage, which addresses many of the challenging problems faced by operators routinely in configuring and managing storage for stateful containers, for example. So there's a lot of goodness there and the combination of Red Hat, both you know, RHEL and OpenShift, any 10x platform, I believe, offers really unparalleled value to our customers in terms of the technology we bring and the integration we bring to our customers. >> Okay, great. Last question, David, maybe you first, and then Monica, you can bring us home. Where do you guys want to see this partnership going? >> We want to see it going where, customers are getting the most value of course, right. And we would like to see obviously adoption, right. So, anytime two leaders like ourselves come together, it's all about delivering for the customer. We've got a long list of customers that have been asking us, as Monica said to do this, and it's overwhelming, right. So we're responding to that. We've got a pipeline of, of customers that we're already beginning to engage on. And so we'll measure our progress based upon adoption, right, and how customers adopt the solution, the shared solution as we go forward. How they're feeding back to us, the value that they're getting, and also encouraging them to engage with us around the roadmap and where we take the solution, right. So I think those are ways that, you know, we'll be focused on adoption and satisfaction around it across the marketplace and the degree of interaction and input we get from customers with respect to the roadmap. And Monica, how do you feel about it? >> Yeah. What's success look like Monica? >> Yeah, look, we all know that technology is a means to an end, right? And the end is solving customer problems, as David said. For us, success will be when we have many, many, many, joined happy customers that are getting benefit from our platform. To me, this is just the beginning of our relationship to help customers. The best is yet to come. I'm super excited, as I said, for many reasons, but specifically, because we know there's a huge demand out there for this integrated solution between Red Hat and Nutanix and we'll start delivering it to our customers. So we've been, we'll be working very closely with our customers to see how that option goes, and we want to delight them with this, with our joint solution. That's our goal. >> Thank you. Well, David, you kind of alluded to it. Customers have been looking forward to this for quiet some time, and number of us have been thinking about this happening and to me, the key, is you're actually putting some real muscle behind it as seen in the engineering resources. And you got to have that type of commitment before you really go forward, otherwise, it's just kind of a yeah a nice press release, nice party deal, this isn't. So congratulations on figuring this out. Good luck. And we'll be really excited to watch your progress. Appreciate you guys coming to theCUBE. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCube. We'll see you next time. (light, upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to theCubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual, I'm John Furry hosts of theCube, Cube Virtual. We're remote, we're not in person this year. Like last year, soon, we'll be back in person. We've got a great guest here, Mark Potts, managing director at Accenture for the Red Hat relationship. Mark, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCube. >> Hey, thanks for having me John. I really appreciate it. >> Yeah, we've been covering pretty extensively throughout this event, as well as you know the many, many years, the impact of cloud computing. Obviously, you guys have a really big strategic relation with IBM and now Red Hat, Red Hat's part of IBM. It's pretty clear that, you know, that Red Hats got this operating system mindset of open source and, you know, innovation. It's extending into cloud, cloud native, and edge, distributed computing. That's kind of in their DNA if you will, distributed computing and system software and open source, kind of the perfect storm. So, really interesting as this enables new services you guys are on the front lines working with the biggest companies in the world as the global businesses is changing. So, I want to get your take on Red Hat and what you guys are doing together, but first give a quick overview of the center role with Red Hat, your role there and what you do. >> Yeah, thanks. Perfect John. So Mark Potts, as you mentioned I'm the managing director responsible for our global business with Red Hat and our partnership with Red Hat. As you probably saw in our announcements last Fall, around the September timeframe, Accenture made a very large, bold announcement about forming a new cloud first business unit within Accenture. And so we're going to invest $3 billion into that business unit. We're going to dedicate 70 over 70,000 people worldwide to that business unit and that cloud first initiative. And as part of that cloud fishing first initiative we've also developed our new hybrid cloud strategy. And we're looking for new partners and existing partners to help us grow in that hybrid cloud strategy, not hybrid cloud business. We see Red Hat as a very important partner in that business. And as you mentioned there, they've also been, you know, in the distributed computing for a long time. We also see them as a partner for clients that are lifting and shifting and migrating to the cloud on RHEL, like SAP and other workloads like that. And I'm excited to talk to you today about OpenShift, and Ansible, and all those great technologies that Red Hat brings to the table for our hybrid cloud approach and strategy. >> That's awesome. Great investment. And I love Paul coming in that you were saying on his keynote, you know, every CIO should be a cloud operator. I mean, running business at scale this is what hybrid cloud is all about. And so with your new hybrid cloud strategy and the formation of the new business group at Accenture what kind of challenges are you guys looking to solve? What are the opportunities that you're seeing for companies? How do you guys solve those challenges? What do you, what are you guys looking at right now? >> Yeah, that's a great question. As you mentioned, the keynote. So, Karthik Laredo actually runs our cloud first business was actually part of that keynote with Larry Slack as well, or Larry Stack, sorry, as well. And so he mentioned in his keynote something called the cloud continuum, right? And so historically Accenture has been working with our partner on cloud native development moving to about 20 to 25% of the existing workloads in the data center, the easy stuff to the cloud, right? But now we realize that there's a need for the hybrid cloud. There's a need to modernize, maybe on premise, there's a need to maybe modernize in the cloud one way or the other. And then we also look at the holistic view of cloud, on-prem, edge. And that's what Karthik is talking about when he's talking about the, the cloud continuum. And that's a very important part of our strategy within Accenture, and OpenShift really helps us meet those needs. So if a client is a little bit nervous about taking some of those complex workloads but they want a modernize and they want to use the latest and greatest cloud native technologies but they want to do it on-prem and move to the cloud a little bit later they can do that with OpenShift, right? And Red Hat. That's a great platform for that. Maybe it's a client that wants to lift and shift and get to the cloud as soon as possible, close their data centers save that cost of money and then modernize later, but they don't want to necessarily be locked and want to be locked into one cloud provider. Again, OpenShift is great for that. Take those legacy workloads that you move to the public cloud, modernize them on Red Hat OpenShift maybe it's Rosa on AWS, maybe it's aro on Azure. And then when you're ready to you can move those to any other public cloud, if you'd like to, when, when you're ready to, right. And that whole control plan as we call it, being able to see across public cloud, on-prem, the edge is really important for our story and our strategy, and Red Hat OpenShift, and Red Hat Satellite. And those technologies bring a lot to the table for us to meet those needs of our clients and our customers. >> That's great insight there, Mark. I really appreciate that. And one of the things brought up when he was saying that I was thinking to myself, okay, the cloud conversation has many evolutions and, you know, go back five years. It was all moved to the cloud. Everyone was moving to the cloud. That was the big discussion point. Now it's, you know, enterprise ready the cloud get that next level of scale. And as you know, in the enterprise everything we do all everything complicated is a lot of legacy and is existing stuff. So this, you know, this, this is the next enterprise at scale is the conversation that includes hybrid multi-cloud or running on that, on the horizon. So with that, can you expand on what you mean by this cloud continuum that you refer to, that essentially refers to and what is needed to make it a reality for customers? >> Yeah, I mean, what's really needed is the latest greatest in hybrid cloud technology like OpenShift and what Red Hat brings to the table, right. It's also new skills and new capabilities, and, and policy management and those types of things that are important for our company to decide when they're ready to move those workloads to the cloud, right. They need the ability to see across their entire infrastructure. Like I mentioned earlier, whether that be a public cloud provider, whether that in their existing data center, in a colo, or on the, in the edge, like in a retail store or something like that, they need, we need the ability to see across those, that seeing all that infrastructure is a single control plane. So we can manage and know where things are to feel confident about security and everything with our clients. The other big thing that we need is skills. Skills to, you know, build the migration, the modernization, and more importantly, the interaction and integration into legacy workloads like the mainframe, for example, Accentures got a lot of use cases, leveraging Red Hat OpenShift for our cloud coupling solution, where we interact and build new applications that connect to the mainframe sitting right next to the mainframe but their new digital mobile applications, web applications that can be quickly modified and deployed in, into production at a rapid pace. Right, and so when we look at everything that's needed, it's skills, it's technology partners like Red Hat, and then it's, it's really building assets and offerings to help make that journey for our clients better, and, and secure. >> We just found out here at the event that you guys at Accenture had been recognized as Red Hats, global systems integrated partner of the year for North America, congratulations on that. What do you see as some of the key reasons for the recognition? Was there anything that they called out in particular? Obviously you guys have a great track record well-known brand you've known for, you know, creating a lot of value for companies as they do digital transformation. What's the, what's the recognition for this year? >> Yeah, we're super excited about this, right. I mean, this is, we've been partners with Red Hat for a long time. I think we were one of the first system integrators, if not the first system integrators to partner with Red Hat many years ago. Right, so, to get this award, and get it for the first time, is super exciting for us. Right, and so we're very grateful for that recognition and opportunity. You know, I think what really, what really, what got us the recognition for this award was really the effort we put into our partnership over the last 12 to 24 months, right. We had had a really big business in Europe with GDPR and, and the risk averse of going to the public cloud in Europe. OpenShift and Red Hat really had taken off. In North America our business was lagging behind Europe and we significantly invested with Red Hat and new offerings and new clients and new people, right. New talent to build a better business and partnership in North America. You know, I think a lot of the things that we got recognized with were what I mentioned earlier some of our cloud coupling solutions for an insurance client in North America where we're building cloud native applications on Red Hat OpenShift sitting next to the mainframe we're building new cloud, cloud native applications for our transportation company in, in the South region of the US right? So it's really that business transformation work that we're doing working with the legacy, but building new core applications for our customers that are truly portable, nimble and agile, and they can use to get speeds to the market and get to the cloud. >> Cloud first organization you guys are investing billions of dollars, 3 billion. That was referenced. I saw an article. I think we covered it as well on (mumbles). Congratulations, cloud first also implies that cloud native is going to be there. Mark, in all your years in the industry talk about from your personal perspective and even from Accentures, the, the shift that's happening because it's almost mind blowing what's going on in the sense of so fast this is accelerated, even the pandemic exactly accelerate even further. The opportunities that were, that are available now that weren't there before and what it's done to the project timelines and what it's done as a forcing function. Could you share your view on the reality of the current situation and opportunities for companies to take advantage of that wave? >> Yeah, and, and I think Accentures done a great job talking about this recently, even from our C-suite down, right. And Karthik we'll mention, has mentioned this as well in his keynote. I mean, we are seeing an acceleration to get to the cloud that was completely unplanned for us. I think the, the numbers I heard was we thought most clients are going to get to the cloud in eight to 10 years and be fully in the cloud in eight to 10 years. But that's accelerated with COVID and the pandemic, right. We're looking at four to five years we think most of our clients will be in a majority of their, their infrastructure and everything, a new, a new applications and legacy applications will be in the cloud. Right, so the, the, the change and the impact of the pandemic had, had a significant impact on our customers and their need to, to, to get to the cloud. We've even seen those that were leaders in the cloud journey accelerate even more, right. And, and they're being rewarded for that acceleration. Right, a lot of our customers that were first to cloud are seeing the benefits and seeing the, the, the ability to scale and for the pandemic, like, like a lot of our customers in the, in the US in particular. And I think OpenShift is going to help them, help us with that, right, And, and Red Hat in particular. And let's not be lost on the fact that Realms is a great product out there as well. We have many of our clients that are running SAP on Realm and that lift and shift and moving SAP to Azure or AWS or Google or something like that is, is a viable solution for our, to help accelerate our customers as they expand, right. We've seen internationally a lot of our customers that have been really focused just in their local region are now expanding their business outwards, and now they need to get to the clouds to be able to expand those businesses. >> You know it's interesting Mark, just as we're talking, just, you know thinking about my experience over the years in the computer industry everything had to display something else, disrupt something, you know, the mainframes were disrupted by client server. Now we're living in an era where with the containers and microservices and service meshes and cloud native technologies you can embrace existing legacy and abstract away some of the complexity on the integration side, right? So you don't have to kill the old to bring in the new. And I think this phenomenon has opened up a new class of services and, you know the people I talk to and interview the leaders in the industry all have the same kind of view. And the ones that stand out are the ones that recognize that the operating system of business will be software. And that software hasn't yet been built in clouds. The beginning, it's not just one cloud. So I think what's interesting about Red Hat is that their operating system people you almost to see, you know, Arvin kind of snapping the lines and kind of cornering the market on the operating system for business and applications then are a thousand flowers that bloom from that. So, very interesting take here again. That's my opinion. I don't think they've said that formally but if you look at it, that's kind of what's going on. What's your reaction to that? >> I think you're a hundred percent, right. I mean, it, you know, I, I also carry a little bit of the responsibility on the IBM side. And you mentioned mainframe and I've mentioned mainframe a handful of times, right? There's a lot of customers that have this legacy estate like the mainframe in particular but they need to be nimble. Right, they need to be agile and mainframe is a challenge sometimes around that. Right, and so to your point creating those applications that participate with the mainframe allowed the mainframe to participate better with these cloud native applications and these new digital transformation applications is a very key component to it. And so I, a hundred percent agree with with everything you said. And I think, I think we're going to see more around this operating system type software. And I, you almost, to an extent, you you kind of view Red Hat OpenShift as kind of that new operating system, right? And you look at some of the announcements that Red Hat has made around Palentier, right, and adding Palentier and ISV to their marketplace to allow customers that are bought OpenShift or make it easy for clients to buy Red Hat OpenShift, and then bring in these ISVs that have been certified, they're secure, they're easy to consume and buy it through Red Hats marketplaces is very exciting and very interesting, and very easy to do, right. Once you get that Red Hat OpenShift layer in there, that operating system and now you're bringing in products all over the place, right. And, and all the new stuff. And I think we're going to see a lot more of those announcements during summit as well. >> Yeah, I think it was a 20 year run here. It's trillions of dollars as it's been forecasted. Mark, great to have you on. Super valuable resource. Great insight! While we got you here let's get a quick free consulting a minute here for the customers watching. What's your advice. I need some help here. I'm going to go to the cloud. I want a good, I want enough headroom so I can grow into I want to foreclose any opportunities. I want to move to the cloud. I want to have a hybrid distributed computing architecture. I want to program my business. I want infrastructure as code. I want dev sec ops. What's my playbook? What should I do? >> So Accenture's got a real smart approach and strategy around us. We leveraged an, an assessment approach really to look at what's in your what's in your data center today and what, what you have from an infrastructure and application standpoint, there should be-- We have a seminar where it's can completely rewrite an application, and we would apply those six hours or seven hours to that assessment to help you figure out the disposition of your applications and your infrastructure to figure out what is the right cloud. What's the right journey. I mean, we talked about, you know the mainframe and mainframe being an anchor in a lot of our client's data centers, right. How do we move those applications that have data gravity challenges to those legacy applications, to the cloud. How do we consider that? So the right way to do it is take a holistic approach. Do the assessment, do the disposition of your applications. And then let's let Accenture put together a full plan of how we would migrate you incidents into the public cloud. >> Mark FOS, managing director of Accenture. Congratulations on your North America award, partner of the year. And also awesome to hear. And we've been covering again cloud first. Totally believe it, great investment. That's going to pay back huge dividends for you guys and you know, having the hybrid, which is pretty much determined as a fact now in the industry. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Perfect, thanks, and thanks for having me, and thank you Red Hat for the award. Really appreciate it. And look forward to talking to you soon. >> All right, this is theCubes coverage of Red Hat summit, 2021, virtual. This is the Cube virtual, I'm John Furry, your host. Thanks for watching.

(ambient music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier. Host of theCUBE. This year, virtual again, soon to be in real life, Post COVID. As the fall comes into play, we're going to start to see life come back and the digital transformation continue to accelerate. And we've got a great guest, Stefanie Chiras, Senior Vice President and General Manager at Red Hat. CUBE alumni. Great to see you. Stephanie, Thanks for coming on. >> No, it's my pleasure, John. Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here with you and look forward to doing it in person soon. >> I can't wait. A lot of people on their vaccine, some say that by the fall vaccines, where pretty much everyone 12 and over, will be vaccinated but we're going to start to see the onboarding of real life again but never going to be the same. Digital business, at the speed of online, offline, almost redefined and re-imagine. Not the old, offline, online paradigms. You're starting to see that come together. That's the focus. That's the top story in the technology industry. That really brings together the topic that I'd like to talk to you about, which is edge computing and RHEL and Linux. This is the topic where all the action is. Obviously hybrid operating models have been pretty much agreed upon by the industry. That is the way it is. Multicloud is on the horizon but edge part of the distributed system. This is where the action is. A natural extension to the open hybrid cloud which you guys have been pioneering. Take me through your thoughts on this edge computing dynamic with RHEL. >> Yeah. So as you said, we have been on this open hybrid cloud strategy for eight years or so. Very focused on providing customers choice both in where they run, what they run, how they run their applications. And the beauty of this strategy is the strategy endures because it's able to adapt to new technologies coming in. And as you said, edge is where things are happening now. It's enabling customers to do so many new and different things. You take kind of all of the dynamics that are happening in technology with data being produced everywhere, new even architectures and compute capabilities that can bring compute right out there to the data. You get 5G networks coming in and incredible advances in telco and networking. You pull that out. Now you've created a dynamic where the technology can really make edge a viable place to now extend how open hybrid cloud can reach and deliver value. And, our goal is to bring our platform and our ecosystem to do everything from the core of your data center out to public clouds, multiple public clouds. And now bring that all the way out to the edge. >> You know, we talk about edge, you know, we talk decentralization, distributed computing. These are the paradigms that are getting re-imagined, if you will, and expanded. You guys talk about and you talk about specifically this idea of digital fast economy requires a new kind of infrastructure. Talk about this because this is, you know, some say virtual first, media first, data first, video first, I mean, developer first, everything's like a first thing, but this is...focuses on the new normal. Take us through this new economy. >> It's really about how you focus on being able to deliver digitally with decisions near the data, and to be able to adapt to that. It's thinking about how you take footprints and now your footprint out at the edge becomes a part of that. One of the things that's really exciting about edge is it does have some specific use case requirements. And we're seeing some things come back. Things like, I mean, we've talked in the past about heterogeneous computing and heterogeneous architectures and the possibilities that exist there. Now at the edge we're seeing different architecture show up, which is great to see. Being able to bring a platform that can allow the use of those different architectures out at the edge to deliver value is a great thing. In addition, we're seeing bare-metal come back out at the edge. You can really imagine spaces where out at the edge you have new architectures with bare-metal deployments and you're operating containers that are touching directly onto that bare-metal. It brings a whole new paradigm to how to deliver value but now we can bring the consistency of what Linux and RHEL and OpenShift with containers can bridge across that whole space. >> So heterogeneous computing, distributed computing, multi-vendor, if you kind of weave those keywords together you have to have a supporting operating model that allows for different services, cloud services, network services, application services, work together. This kind of puts an emphasis on a control plane, a software platform that can bring this together. This is the core, if I understand the Red Hat strategy properly, you guys are going right at this point. Is that true? >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. It is. When everything else, you can get value from everything else changing what stays the same to help keep you efficient and consistent across it? And that's where we focus on the platforms. And as open hybrid cloud changes with different optionalities, our focus is to bring that sort of single common control plane that provides consistency. So you can develop once and reuse, but make it adaptable to how you want to leverage that application as a container, as a BM, on bare-metal, out at the edge, on multiple public clouds. It's really about expanding that landscape that open hybrid cloud can touch. And you'll see in other discussions, you know, one of the places we're going into new is in the edge, manage services also become part of that paradigm. So, it really is our focus to be that common control plane, provide accessibility while still delivering consistency. And let's face it consistency down at the operating system level, that's what starts to deliver your things like security. And boy, it's a critical topic today, right? To make sure that as you expand and distribute and you've got compute running out there with data, security is top of mind. >> I have to ask you, we've been having many conversations in the open source community, Linux foundation, CNCF, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, and other other communities. And the common thread is... And I want to get your reaction to this statement, the statement is "Edge computing's foundation must be open across the board." Talk about that. What's your reaction to that? And how does that relate to Red Hat and what you guys are doing at the edge and with RHEL. >> I mean, we really believe an open source brings compatibility and standardization that allows innovation to grow. In any new technology, fragmentation causes the death of the new technology. So you...our focus is, it will have to be, I mean, we firmly believe it absolutely has to be built on an open platform that has standards so that the ecosystem, and the ecosystem around edge is complex. You have multiple hardware capabilities, multiple vendors, any edge deployment will be multi-vendor. So how do you pull all of that together in an ecosystem? It is about having that foundation be open and be able to be accessible and built upon by everyone. >> You know, you were talking earlier about the edge in 5G and we just talking about open. This is the future of computing, both consumer and enterprise, whether it's, you know, a factory or a consumer wearing a wearable device or sensors on cameras, on lights and cities and all these things are happening. I want to get your reaction to that because there's a difference between industrial IOT devices and consumer IOT devices. Both have different ramifications. You know, 5G certainly is not so much a consumer as it is also a business technology, as you get the kind of throughputs you're seeing. So, both consumer and industrial enterprise capabilities are emerging. What's your position on that? >> I mean, I think edge is one of those things that it's been hard for people to wrap their head around a bit because what we deal with edge in our own personal lives, whether that be in our connected home or our mobile phone, that's one view of what edge does in one set of value that it does. But from a separate lens edge is everything from how telco is deployed to how data is aggregated in from sensors and how decisions are made. I mean, we're seeing in spaces, whether it be in manufacturing and adding AI onto manufacturing floors, how do you have, you know, in vehicles, I mean, vehicles are becoming sort of mobile software centers now. So, there is a whole shift in edge that is different from industry 4.0 and from kind of operational transformation edge that it's driving all the way into kind of the things that we see everyday which is more the global space and how our homes are connected. And I think now we're starting to see a real maturity in how the world views edge to be able to compartmentalize what enterprise edge is able to do, how edge can change operational technologies, as well as how edge can change kind of our daily lives. >> Great vision and great insights. Definitely awesome. Thought leadership there. I totally agree. I think it's exciting you see confluence of so many awesome technologies and a bright future with the technology platforms and with society open now is defacto everything not just in tech and truth, whether it's journalism or reporting, society and security, again, trust. Open, trust, technology. I got all come in together. The confluence of all those are as going on. So, I think you've got a great read on that. So thanks for sharing. Red Hat Summit. What's new? Tell us what's new here and what's being talked about that no one's heard before and what's the existing stuff that's getting better. >> Yeah, we'd love to. So we are really doubling down on edge within our portfolio. We have, you probably saw in November, we had some announcements, both in OpenShift as well as in RHEL in order to add features and capabilities that deliver specifically for edge use cases. Things like the ability to do updates and roll back in a RHEL deployment. We are continuing to drive things into our products that cater to the needs of edge deployment. As part of that, we are engaged with a whole lot of customers today deploying their edge, and that's across industries, things from telco to energy to transportation. And so, as we look at all of those cases that we've been kind of engaged with and delivering value to customers, we are bringing forward the Red Hat edge brand. It's going to be our collection point to shine a spotlight for how the features and functions in our portfolio can come together and be used to deliver in edge deployments. It'll be our space where we can showcase use cases, where we're seeing success with customers but really to pull together 'cause it is a portfolio story and it's an ecosystem story. How do we pull that together in one spot? And in order to support that here at Summit, we are announcing some really key additions into RHEL 8.4 that really focused on the specific needs of what edge is driving. You'll see things like the ability in RHEL to create streamlined OS image generation. And we can simply manage that into container images. That container magic, right? To be able to repeatably deploy an image, repeatably deployed application out to the edge, that has become a key need in these edge deployments. So we've simplified that so operations teams can really meet the scale of their fleets and deploy it in a super consistent way. We've added capabilities. Image builder, we had brought out already, but we've added capabilities to create customized installation media. It's simplifies for bare-metal deployments. And as I mentioned out at the edge work, it's really small bare-metal deployments where you can bring that container right onto their bare-metal. Can imagine a lot of situations where that brings a lot of value. We introduced in RHEL 8.0 podman as our container engine. And we've added new automatic updates in that. So, again, getting back to security fixes. Simple to ensure that you have the latest security fixes. Application updates and we're continuing to add changes and updates into Universal Base Image. Universal base image is a collection of user space packages that are available to the community, fully redistributable. The goal of those user space packages is to enable developers to be able to create container images with those packages included and then they can redistribute them when they're run on OpenShift or they're run on RHELs. So we can really work through that user space and to that host, matching, and we can stand behind that matching, then we can support it, but it allows for a lot of freedom and flexibility with Universal Based Image to really expand where we can go and help folks kind of create, deploy and develop their applications. We're also moving into, I think, one of the things you see in edge is a real industry slant. We're starting to see edge deployments take on real industry flavors. And so we are engaging in some spots, things like, whether it be from automotive to industrial and operational technology. How do we engage in those industry verticals? How do we engage with the right partners? One of the things that's key that we're looking at, 'cause it is core to what we do, is things like functional safety. And, we're working with a company called Axeda who's a leader in this space for functional safety, for how do we bring that level of security and certification into the RHEL space when it's deployed out there at the edge? So, it's an exciting space, everything from the technology to the partnerships, to how we engage as industry verticals. But this is a... I'm really excited to have the Red Hat... >> I can tell. Super excited. You know, one of the things that's interesting is that the industry trivia as theCUBE has been around for 11 years now. We've been to all of Red Hat events and IBM events for many, many years. But I actually interviewed Arvind, who is now the CEO of IBM, who now owns Red Hat, at Red Hat Summit in San Francisco, like three years ago. And, he had a smile on his face and he just announced the acquisition shortly after 'cause I was hitting him with some cloud native questions. A lot of this stuff about kind of what's hitting today and you just laid it out. RHEL, if I get this right, and of course I'm connecting the dots here in real time, It's an operating system that hits bare-metal, open hybrid cloud, edge, public cloud and across the enterprise. It's an operating system. Okay. So, okay. We know all know that. Okay, you apply that to a cloud operating model, you have some system software. So the question, which by the way is, what's going to power the next gen cloud. I think is what Arvind wants and you guys hope. So the question for you Stephanie is, what applications do you hope to create on top of... and what do you have today that RHEL is powering because if you have great systems software like RHEL, that's enabling applications. I'm assuming that's cloud services, that's new cloud native. Take us through that part of the stack. What's your vision? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the key things that I would touch on is that it's part of the reason we build our portfolio the way we do, right? We have RHEL of course for your kind of Linux deployments that you described but RHEL CoreOS is part of OpenShift and that consistency delivers into the platform and then both of those can then serve the applications that you need to deploy. And we are really excited to be able to do things like work with the transportation industry, folks like Alstom who do really bring edge capabilities all the way out into the rails of the train systems. They, from high speed trains to metros to monorail, they have built their whole strategy on RHEL and Ansible Automation Platform. It's about the platform, just as you said that operating system, delivering the flexibility to pull the applications on top and those applications could be anything from things that require functional safety, right? Things like in vehicles, as an example, could be anything from artificial intelligence, which goes out into manufacturing. But having that stable platform underneath, whether or not using RHEL or OpenShift, that consistency, it opens up the world to how applications can be deployed on it. But I am super excited about what AI and machine learning out at the edge can do and what being able to bring really hardened security capabilities out to the edge, what that opens up for new technologies and businesses. >> That's super exciting. And I think the edge is a great exclamation point around any debate anyone might've had around what the distributed architecture is going to look like. It's pretty clear now what the landscape is from an enterprise standpoint. And given that, what should people know about the edge? What's the update? What's the modern takeaway now that we're, I mean, obviously COVID has proven that there's a lot of edge applications that kind of were under forecast or accelerated, working at home, dealing with network security, you name it. It's been kind of over-amplified, for sure. But now that COVID is kind of coming, there's light at the end of the tunnel, coming to an end, it's going to be still a hybrid world. I mean, hybrid everything, not just hybrid cloud I mean hybrid everything. So edge now can not be ignored. What should people take away from Red Hat Summit this year? >> Absolutely. I think it's the possibilities that edge can bring. And there are different stages of maturity. Telco, beautiful example of how to deploy edge. In telco, as a market continues to drive the.... kind of pioneer what is done in edge. You see a lot of embedded edge, right? Things that you deploy or your business may deploy that is... you purchase it from a company and it's more embedded as an appliance level. And then there's what the enterprise will do with edge specifically for their businesses. What I think you'll see is a catch-up across all of these spaces, that those three are complimentary, right? You've may consume some of your edge from a partner and a full solution. You may build some of your own edge as you expand your data center and distribute it. And you're made leverage. Of course you'll leverage what's being done by the telcos. So what I think you'll see is a balance in multiple types of edge being deployed and the different values that it can deliver. >> Stefanie, final question for you. And thanks for taking the time. Great conversation and interview here for Red Hat Summit. As the General Manager you're constantly talking to customers. I know that. Personally, you've told me that. Many stories off-camera. But also you have to look inside the organization, run the business, keep an eye on the product roadmap and make sure everything's pumping on all cylinders. What is the customer telling you right now? And what's the common pattern that people are talking about, things that they're looking to do, projects they're funding, and what's the most important story that we should be covering. And what's the most important story people aren't talking about? >> So I think one of the things, I'm really seeing, as you mentioned at the beginning we've been talking about open hybrid cloud for a long time. There was a period of time where hybrid cloud was happening to folks or kind of, it was a bit... some of developers were using it from here. Now, hybrid cloud is intentional. It is very intentional about how customers are strategically taking a view of what they deploy where, how they deploy it and taking a bit advantage of the optionality that hybrid can do. So that's one of the things I'm most excited about. I think the next steps that will happen is a balancing of how do they expand that out into, how do they balance a managed services addition into their hybrid cloud, how do they manage that with also having VMs and a large VM deployment on prem. To me now the biggest thing that is being looked at is how do companies make these decisions in a strategic way that is kind of holistic rather than making point decisions. And I am seeing that transition in the customers I talk to. It's not how do I deal with hybrid cloud, it's how do I make hybrid cloud work for me and really deliver value to me and how do I make those decisions as a company. And honestly that requires kind of what you talked about earlier. It requires within those customers to have the structure, the organizational structure, the communication, the transparency, the openness that you've talked about. That takes a strategy like open hybrid cloud a long way. So it's both the people and the process and the technology coming together. >> You know, Stefanie, we do so many interviews in theCUBE and you've been on so many times, you go back and look back and say, "You know, in that year, 2010, we were talking about this." Chiras, I was talking to a friend and we were just talking about 2015. That was the big conversation of moving to the cloud, you know. Startups are all there. Born in the cloud. So, you know, early generation was all about the startup cloud. They all got that. 2015 was like move to the cloud. This year, the conversation isn't about moving to the cloud is about scale and all those enterprise requirements now that are coming from the hybrid. Now that that's been decided, you starting to see that operating model connect. So it's not so much moving to the cloud, it's I've moved to the cloud and now I got to run some now enterprise grade scale operationally. What's your reaction to that? >> Absolutely. I mean, to me, the, I love the intentionality that I'm seeing now in customers, but when it comes down to it, it's about speed of deploying applications, it's about having the security and the stability in order to deploy that, to give you confidence in order to go out and scale it out. So to me, it is speed, stability and scale. Those three comes together. And how do you pull that together with whole of the choices we have today and the technologies today to deliver value and competitive differentiation. >> Open source is winning and you guys are doing a great job. Stefanie, thank you for coming on and spending so much time chatting here in theCUBE for Red Hat Summit. Thanks for your time. >> Well, my pleasure, John. Good to see you. >> Okay. Great to see you. This is theCUBEs' coverage of Red Hat Summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (ambient music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBES coverage of Red Hat summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furry, host of theCUBE. We've two great guests here, returning back CUBE alumni here to give us their perspective. Dave Linquist GM VP of engineering hybrid cloud management at Red Hat. Joe Fitzgerald, general manager VP of the management business unit Red Hat. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Congratulations, Red Hat summits, ongoing virtual. Great to see you. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks John. >> So I'd love to get the low down. A lot going on the productivity this year. Looking back from last year, a lot's been done and we've been in the pandemic now, now circling back a full year. A lot's happened- a lot of productivity, a lot of clear visibility on, on what's working, what's not, you guys got some great news. Let's just jump right into it. What's the big announcement? >> So one of the things that we announced here at Summit, John, is an expansion of our Red Hat insights brand. Basically we announced Red Hat insights for our RHEL platform back in 2015. Over the years, we've increased the amount of data and visibility into those systems. Here at summit, we've now announced Red Hat insights for both OpenShift, and for the Red Hat Ansible platform. So it's a pretty significant increase in the visibility that we have to the platforms. >> Oh, so can you repeat that one more time? So the expansion is through which platform style specifically? >> So Red Hat insights is a way that we connect up to different platforms that Red Hat provides. Historically it was for Red Hat enterprise Linux realm. We've now expanded it to the Red Hat, OpenShift family, the platforms as well as the Red Hat Ansible automation platform as well. >> So a nice broad expansion and people want that data. What's what was the motivation behind it? Was it customer demand? Was it more access to the data? Just, was it on the roadmap? What's the motivation- where where's this going? What's what's the purpose of all this? >> Well, I don't think customers say, Hey, please, you know take more data. I think it's customers say, can you keep me more secure? Can you keep my systems more optimized? Can you help me set more things to automatic? And that requires that you get data from these systems that you can auto tune on, auto- secure, auto optimize. Right? So it's really all those benefits that we get by connecting to these systems, bringing the telemetry data that config different kinds of information, and using that on customer behalf to optimize secure to the systems. >> You know, one of the biggest trends I think now for multiple years has been observability with cloud native, more services are being turned on and off enterprises are are getting a lot of pressure to be modern in their in their application development processes. Why is data more important than ever now? Can you guys take a minute to expand on that? Because this idea of telemetry across the platform is a very interesting announcement because you're turning that data into value, but can you guys expand where's that value coming, turning into? What is the value proposition? Where are people seeing the, the, the key key value points? >> Well, a couple of points, John, as you started out is in a hybrid cloud environment with cloud native applications and a lot of application modernization and the current progressiveness of DevOps and SRE teams, you're seeing a lot of dynamics and workloads and continuous delivery and deployments that are in public environments and private environments, distributed models. And so consequently, there's a lot of change in dynamics in the environment. So to sustain these high levels of service levels to sustain the security and the compliance, the ability to gather data from all these different points, to be able to get visibility into that data. It'd be able the ability to process that with various analytics and understand what when something's gone wrong or when an update is needed or when a configuration has drifted is increasingly critical in that in a hybrid cloud environment. >> So on the telemetry piece is that in open shift as well that that's supporting that as in there has that work. >> It's it's in OpenShift, as Joe mentioned, it's in braille it's in V2 Ansible and the OpenShift space we'd have an offering advanced cluster management that understands fleets of deployments, clusters, wherever they're deployed however they're running infrastructure public private hybrid environments. And it also collects in the context of the workloads that are deployed on those on those clusters to multi-question burn. >> I want to ask you guys a question. I get this all the time on theCUBE. Hey, you know, I need more data. I have multiple systems. I need to pull that data into one kind of control plane but I'm being pushed more and more to keep scaling operations. And this becomes a huge question mark for the enterprises because they, they have to turn up more, more scale. So this is becomes a data problem. Does this solve it here? How do you guys answer that? And what was the, what would be your response to that trend? >> Well, I think the, the thirst for data, right? There's a lot of things you can do with more data. There is a point where you can't ship all the data everywhere, right? If you think about logs and metrics and all the data it's too heavyweight to move everything everywhere. Right? So part of it is, you know, selecting the kind of data that you're going to get from these systems and the purpose you're going to use it for. And in the case of Red Hat, we take data from these different systems, regardless of whether they're deployed bring it in, and then we did predictive analytics against that data. And we use that telemetry that can take that health data right to do everything from optimize for performance or security costs, things like that. But we're not moving, you know, huge quantities of data from every system to Red Hat in order to, you know, pour through it. We are very selectively moving certain kinds of data for very specific purposes. >> Dave, what's your take on that because you know you got to engineer these systems. What's the optimized path for data? Do you keep it in the silo? Do you bring it together? What's the customer's view on, on how to deal with the data? >> Yeah. It is a complex problem. No doubt. You don't want it to be pulling all the data and trying to transmit all that data back into your analytics system. So you ended up curating some data, some of it you afford on often it's done under it will be done under control of policies. So that data that is sensitive, that should stay within the environment that it's in, will stay, but curated or alerts or information that's particularly relevant say to configurations, updates, any any of that type of information will go up into the analytics, into the insights. And then in turn, the alerts will come back down in a manner that are presented to the user. So they understand what actions need to be taken place whether there's automated actions or or they have to get approvals to maybe make an update to a certain environment. >> All right, you got telemetry, data power, the the advanced cluster management ACM. What's the overlap of the visibility and automation here. Can you guys talk about that? >> Well, let's say it's a great question, John what we'd like to do is we'd like to sort of separate the different areas. There's the seeing, right. And what's going on in these environment. Right. So getting the data analyzing it and determining what needs to be done. And then the, you know the recommendation of the automation. As Dave said, in a lot of environments, there's a process of either approvals or checkpoints or, you know evaluation of the changes being made to the system. Right. So separating the data and the analysis from the what do you want to do at this and making that configurable I think is really powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean I think that's the number one thing is like, you know everyone always asks, what do you optimize for do you optimize for the automation or the visibility? And I think, you know, there's always a trade-off and that's always interesting question David- love to get your thoughts. If someone asks you, Hey, I'm a I'm I have a team of people. What do I optimize for? The visibility or the automation or both? Is or is there a rule of thumb or is there a playbook? What w how would you answer that question? >> Well, there's a couple of things. I first, I think the, the ability to pull the data together to get visibility across the environment is critical. And then what becomes often complex is how the different disciplines, how the different parts of the system are able to work together on common understanding of the resources common understanding the applications. That's usually where systems start falling down. And so it's too siloed. So one of the key things we have with with our systems, particularly with OpenShift and row and with ACM and Ansible is the ability to have the common back lane and the ability to have a common understanding of the resources and the applications. And then you can start integrating the data around that common, those common data models and take appropriate actions on that. So that's how you ended up getting the visibility integrated with the automation. >> When you think about this, Joe about the security aspect of it and the edge of the network which has been a big theme this year and going into next year, a lot more discussion just the industrial edge, you know, that's important. You got to take all this into account. How do you, how would you talk about folks who are thinking about embedding security and thinking about now the distributed edge specifically? >> Right. So we thought it was complicated before, right? It goes up a notch here, right? As you have, you know, more and more edge applications I think at the edge, you're going to want automated policies and automated configurations in force so that when a device connects up to a network or is, you know analyzed that there's a set of policies and some configurations and versions that need to be applied to that device, these devices, aren't always connected. There's not always high bandwidth. So you basically want a high degree of automation in that case. And to get back to your early point there are certain things you can set like policies about security or configuration. You say, I always want it to be like this and make it so and there's other things where they're more you know, complicated, right. To, to address or have regulatory requirements or oversight issues. And those things you want to tell somebody I think this should be done. Is this the right thing to do? Is it okay? Do it, but at the edge you're going to have a lot more sort of lights out automation to keep these things secure, to configure. Right. >> It's funny. I was, some of the Ansible guys are talking about, you know code for code, changing code all the time and dynamic nature of some of the emerging tech coming out of the Red Hat teams. It's pretty interesting. You guys have going on there, but you know, you can bring it down to the average enterprise and main street, you know enterprise out there, you know, they're looking at, okay I got some public loud. Now I got hybrid. I'm going a hundred percent hybrid. That's pretty much the general consensus of all the enterprises. Okay. So now you say, okay, if I understand this correctly you got insights on REL, OpenShift and Ansible platform. So I'm, am I set up for an open hybrid cloud? That's the question I want to ask you guys does that give me the foundation to allow me to start the cloud adoption with an, a true distributed open way >> I'll I'll offer to go first. I think there's a couple of things you need in order to run across hybrid clouds. And I think Red Hat from a platform point of view the fact that Red Hat platforms run across all those different environments from the public cloud to on-premise and physical vert to edge devices. Now you have consistency of those platforms whether it's your traditional on REL, your container based workloads on shift or automation that's being turned in by Ansible. Those are consistent across all these different hybrid cloud environments. So reduces the complexity by standardizing those platforms across any and all of those different substrates. Then, when you can take the data from those systems bring them centrally and use it to manage those things to a higher degree of automation. Now you take an, another sort of chunk of complexity out of the problem, right? Consistency of getting data from all those different systems being able to set policies and enforce things across all those distributed environments is huge. >> Yeah. And then, you know, it fills in the gaps when you start thinking about the siloed teams, you know, the, the, I think one of the messages that I've been hearing out of Red Hat Summit in the industry that's consistent is the unification trend that's going on. Unifying development teams in a way that creates more of an exponential value curve rather than just linear progressions in, in traditional IT. Are you guys seeing that as well? I mean, what's your take on this? That's that piece of the story? >> Well, I think the shift that we've seen for the last few years actually quite a few years with DevOps and SRE is started to bring a lot of the disciplines together that you mentioned that are traditionally silos. And you're finding the effectiveness of that is really around many of the areas that we've been discussing here which is open platforms that can run consistently across a hybrid environment, the ability to get data and visibility out of this platform. So you can see across the distributed environment across the hybrid environment and then the ability to take actions in Bourse or update environments through automation is, is is really what's critical to bring things to to bring it all together. >> Yeah. I think that's such an important point, Joe. You know, I was talking with Chris right around and we we've covered this in the past red hats success with academics in the young people coming into in the universities with computer science. It's not just computer science anymore. Now you have engineering degrees kind of cross-disciplinary with SRS is SRE movement because you're looking at cloud operations at scale. That's not an IT problem anymore. It's actually an IT next gen problem. And this is kind of what, there's no real degree. There's no real credential for, you know large scale hybrid cloud environment. You guys have the mass open cloud initiative. I saw that going on. That's some really pretty big things. This is a, a change and, and talent. What's your, what's your view on this? Because I think people want to learn what what do I need to be in the future? What position? >> So John it's a great question. I think Ansible actually addresses a number of the issues you brought up, which is, you know historically there've been different tools for each of the different groups. So, you know, developers had their favorite set of tools and different, IT areas their favorite set of tools and technologies. And it was sort of like a tower of Babel. People did not share the same, you know sort of languages and tools. Ansible crosses both your your development test and operational teams. So creates a common language, now that can be used across different teams. It's easy to understand. So it sort of democratizes automation. You don't have to be deeply skilled in some, you know misspoke language or technology in order to be able to do some level of automation. So I think sort of sharing the same technology and tools I'd like an answer, more democratizing it so that more people can get involved in automating sharing that automation across teams and unifying those worlds is huge, right? So I think that's a game changer as well in terms of getting these teams work holistically integrated. >> Yeah. And there's also a better together panel on the Ansible and advanced cluster management session. Folks watching should check it out on on the virtual event platform on that point while I got you here on that point, let's let's talk about the portfolio updates for advanced cluster management for Kubernetes, what's new since the Ansible Fest, Ansible Fest announcements >> There's quite a bit that's been new since Ansible Fest. Ansible Fest well actually going back to Summit last year we introduced advanced cluster management. For years, we've been seeing the growth of Kubernetes with cloud native and clusters. And what ACM really allows enterprises to do is is scale out their deployments of OpenShift. Well, one of the things we found is that as you're deploying workloads or clusters or trying to take care of the compliance, the importance of integrating that environment with the breadth of capabilities that Ansible has in automation. So that's what we announced that at Ansible Fest following last year's summit what we've done is put a lot more focus on that integration with Ansible. So when you bring up, provision a cluster maybe you need to make some storage or security configurations on behalf of that cluster or if you're taking care of the compliance how do you remediate any issues with Ansible or one of the things that get shown a lot, demonstrate a lot with customers like is when you're deploying applications into production, how do you configure the network? Do the network configurations like a load balancer maybe a ticket into your service management system along with say a threat detection on your security. So a lot of advances with ACM and the integration with a broader ecosystem of IT, in particular with, with Ansible >> What's the ecosystem update for partners? And this has comes up all the time. I want to make sure I get this in there. I want it, I missed it. Last time we chatted, you know, the partner impact to this. You mentioned the ecosystem and you've got native Coobernetti's, non-native what's native to open. You guys have a lot of native things and sometimes it's just support for other clouds. So you start to get into the integration questions. Partners are very interested in what you guys are doing. Can you share the partner update on how they play and what impacts them the most here? >> Yeah. On the events, cluster management ACM front first with this integration with Ansible that actually allows us to integrate with the wealth of partner ecosystem the Ansible apps, which is huge. So that's, that's one, one space. And then the way ACM works, this policy desirous state model is we've been able to integrate with a large number of partners around particularly the security space model the service management space, where they, where we can enforce the use of certain security tools on the on the clusters themselves. So it's really opened up how quickly partner offerings can be integrated into the OpenShift environment at scale across all the clusters that you want, that you need to support it on what the appropriate configurations and policies >> I got to ask you on the insight side you mentioned the expansion across the platform. Now, if you go out and take out to the ecosystem, you know there's guard rails around governance how far can partners push their data in terms of sharing? That's something that might come up when you comment on that. >> Sure. So Red Hat, you know, takes, you know our customer data very seriously. We're a trusted partner to our customers. So the data that we get from systems we make sure that we are following all of the governance and oversight necessary to protect that data. So far, we have basically been collecting that data and using that data at Red Hat. Our plan really is to allow partners with the right degree of governance and control to be able to use some of that data in the future, under the right conditions whether it's anonymized or aggregated, things like that to be able to take that data and to add value to customers if they can enrich customers or or help customers by getting some access to that data without every vendor or partner, having to go out to systems and having to connect and pull data back. That's a pretty tough situation for customers to live with. But I think that fact that we're ahead is trusted. We've been doing this for awhile. We know how to handle the data. We know how to provide the governance. But our plan really is to enable partners to use that data ecosystem. I will say that initially what they had said about ACM and partners, Ansible has been working with partners on the automation side at a very large scale, right? So if you look at the amount of partners that are doing automation, work with us we have some pretty strong, you know, depth there. But in terms of working with partners, our plan is to take the data ecosystem, expand that as well. >> It's really a nice mix between the Ansible OpenShift and then REL, do you guys have great insights across now? I think the open innovation just continues to be every year. I say the same thing. It's almost like a broken record but every year it just gets better and better. You know, innovation out in the open you guys doing a great job and continuing and now certainly as the pandemic looks like it's coming to an end soon, post-pandemic, a lot more projects are being worked on a lot more productivity, as we said at the top. So to end the segment out I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on what happens next. As we come out of the pandemic, the table has been set. The foundation's there, cloud native is continuing to accelerate rapidly in the open OpenSource, going through them on another level. What's next what's, what's going to what's next for customers. Are they going to continue to double down on those? The winds they're going to shut down certain projects. What happens after this pandemic? How do people grow, Dave? We'll start with you. >> Well, I think, yes we all see the light at the end of the tunnel, John. It's great. And I think if a positive, is it really throughout this? We've been accelerated in the digitization and at modernization cross the board across industries. Okay. And that is really teaching all of us a lot about the importance of how do you start managing and running this at scale and securing this at scale. So I think what we'll see coming out of this is just that much more effort, open ecosystems. How you really bring together data across insights? How do you bring in increasing the amount of analytics AI to now do something turn that data into information that you can respond with and that in turn, close it, closing the loop with automation against or against your hybrid cloud environment? We're just going to see acceleration of that occurring. >> Awesome, great insights there. Open data insights, automation, all kind of coming together. AI. You don't have AI in your, your plans. Someone was Wall Street was joking. That's going to be the future stable stakes get listed on Wall Street. You got to have some sort of AI piece. They have great insight, Joe, your take on what's next? What, what what's going to what's going to happen as we come out of the pandemic? >> Yeah. We've definitely seen people, you know advance their digital transformation. And I don't think it's going to stop. Right? So the speed scale and complexity or just put more pressure on teams, right? To be able to support these environments that are evolving at light speed. So I think Red Hat is really well positioned and is a great partner for folks who are trying to get more digital, faster trying to leverage these technologies from the hybrid cloud to the edge. They're going to need lots of help. Red Hat is in a great position. >> Okay. >> You guys doing great work, Dave Linquist, Joe Fitzgerald. Great to have you back on again. Open, always wins. And as end users become much more participants in the open source ecosystem and user contributions and user interactions software at scale, it's now a new come next generation commercial environment, You guys are doing a great job. Thank you for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks John. >> Okay. Red Hat Summit 21 CUBE coverage. I'm John Furrier getting all the action from the experts who've been there, done that living through it, being more productive and have bringing benefits to you being open source. Thanks for watching.

(smart gentle music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, got two great guests here from AWS, Bob Wise, General Manager of Kubernetes for Amazon Web Services and Peder Ulander, Head of product marketing for the enterprise developer and open-source at AWS. Gentlemen, you guys are the core leaders in the AWS open-source initiatives. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Good to be here. >> So the innovation that's come from people building on top of the cloud has just been amazing. You guys, props to Amazon Web Services for constantly adding more and raising the bar on more services every year. You guys do that, and now public cloud has become so popular, and so important that now Hybrid has pushed the Edge. You got outpost with Amazon you see everyone following suit. It's pretty much clear vote of confidence from the customers that, Hybrid is the operating model of the future. And that really is about the Edge. So I want to chat with you about the open-source intersection there, so let's get into it. So we're here at Red Hat Summit. So Red Hat's an open-source company and timing is great for them. Now, part of IBM you guys have had a relationship with Red Hat for some time. Can you tell us about the partnership and how it's working together? >> Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I take that one? AWS and Red Hat have been strategic partners since, shoot, I think it's 2008 or so in the early days of AWS, when engaging with customers, we wanted to ensure that AWS was the best place for enterprises to run their Red Hat workloads. And this is super important when you think about, what Red Hat has accomplished with RHEL in the enterprise, it's running SAP, it's running Oracle's, it's running all different types of core business applications, as well as a lot of the new things that customers are innovating. And so having that relationship to ensure that not only did it work on AWS, but it actually scaled we had integration of services, we had the performance, the price all of the things that were so critical to customers was critical from day one. And we continue to evolve this relationship over time. As you see us coming into Red Hat Summit this year. >> Well, again, to the hard news here also the new service Red Hat OpenShift servers on AWS known as ROSA, the A for Amazon Red Hat OpenShift, A for Amazon Web Services, a clever acronym but really it's on AWS. What exactly is this service? What does it do? And who is it designed for? >> Well, I'll let me jump in on this one. Maybe let's start with the why? Why ROSA? Customers love using OpenShift, but they also want to use AWS. They want the best of both. So they want their peanut butter and their chocolate together in a single confection. A lot of those customers have deployed AWS, have deployed OpenShift on AWS. They want managed service simplified supply chain. We want to be able to streamline moving on premises, OpenShift workloads to AWS, naturally want good integration with AWS services. So as to the, what? Our new service jointly operated is supported by Red Hat and AWS to provide a fully managed to OpenShifts on AWS. So again, like lot of customers have been running OpenShift on AWS before this time, but of course they were managing it themselves typically. And so now they get a fully managed option with also simplified supply chain. Single support channels, single billing. >> You know, were talking before we came on camera about the acronym on AWS and people build on the clouds kind of like it's no big deal to say that, but I know it means something. I want to explain, you guys to explain this on because I know I've been scolded saying things on theCUBE that were kind of misspoken because it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I built that app. We built all this stuff on theCUBE was on AWS, but it's not on AWS. It means something from a designation standpoint what does on AWS mean? 'Cause this is OpenShift servers on AWS, we see this other companies have their products on AWS. This is specific designation. Can you share, please. >> John, when you see the branding of something like Red Hat on AWS, what that basically signals to our customers is that this is joint engineering work. This is the top of the strategic partners where we actually do a lot of joint engineering and work to make sure that we're driving the right integrations and the right experience, make sure that these things are accessible and discoverable in our console. They're treated effectively as a first-class service inside of the AWS ecosystem. So it's, there's not many of the on's, if you will. You think about SAP on VMware cloud, on AWS, and now Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, it really is that signal that helps give customers the confidence of tested, tried, trued, supported and validated service on top of AWS. And we think that's significantly better than anything else. It's easy to run an image on a VM and stuffed it into a cloud service to make it available, but customers want better, customer want tighter experiences. They want to be able to take advantage of all the great things that we have from a scale availability and performance perspective. And that's really what we're pushing towards. >> Yeah. I've seen examples specifically where when partners work with Amazon at that level of joint engineering, deeper partnerships. The results were pretty significant on the business side. So congratulations to you guys working with OpenShift and Red Hat, that's real testament to their product. But I got to ask you guys, pull the Amazon playbook out and challenge you guys, or just, create a new some commentary around the process of working backwards. Every time I talked to Andy Jassy, he always says, we work backwards from the customer and we get the requirements, and we're listening to customers. Okay, great. He loves that, he loves to say that it's true. I know that I've seen that. What is the customer work backwards document look like here? What is the, what was the need and what made this become such an important part of AWS? What was the, and then what are they saying now, now that the products out there? >> Well, OpenShift has a very wide footprint as does AWS. Some working backwards documents kind of write themselves, because now the customer demand is so strong that there's just no avoiding it. Now, it really just becomes about making sure you have a good plan so it becomes much more operational at that point. ROSA's definitely one of those services. We had so much demand and as a result, no surprise that we're getting a lot of enthusiasm for customers because so many of them asked us for it. (crosstalk) >> What's been the reaction in asking demand. That's kind of got the sense of that, but okay. So there's demand now, what's the what's the use cases? What are customers saying? What's the reaction been? >> Lot of the use cases are these Hybrid kind of use cases where a customer has a big OpenShift footprint. What we see from a lot of these customers is a strong demand for consistency in order to reduce IT sprawl. What they really want to do is have the smallest number of simplest environments they can. And so when customers that standardized on OpenShift really wants to be able to standardize OpenShifts, both in their on premises environment and on AWS and get managed service options just to remove the undifferentiated heavy lifting. >> Hey, what's your take on the product marketing side of this, where you got open-source becoming very enterprise specific, Red Hat's been there for a very long time. I've been user of Red Hat since the beginning and following them, and Linux, obviously is Linux where that's come from. But what features specifically jump out in this offering that customers are resonating around? What's the vibe here? >> John, you kind of alluded to it early on, which is I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Hybrid but the reality is our customers have environments that are on premises in the cloud and all the way out to the Edge. Today, when you think of a lot of solutions and services, it's a fractured experience that they have between those three locations. And one of our biggest commitments to our customers, just to make things super simple, remove the complexity do all of the hard work, which means, customers are looking for a consistent experience environment and tooling that spans data center to cloud, to Edge. And that's probably the biggest kind of core asset here for customers who might have standardized on OpenShift in the data centers. They come to the cloud, they want to continue to leverage those skills. I think probably one of the, an interesting one is we headed down in this path, we all know Delta Airlines. Delta is a great example of a customer who, joint customer, who have been doing stuff inside of AWS for a long time. They've been standardizing on Red Hat for a long time and bringing this together just gave them that simple extension to take their investment in Red Hat OpenShift and leverage their experience. And again, the scale and performance of what AWS brings them. >> Next question, what's next for a Red Hat OpenShift on AWS in your work with Red Hat. Where does this go next? What's the big to-do item, what do you guys see as the vision? >> I'm glad you mentioned open-source collaboration at the start there. We're taking to point out is that AWS works on the Kubernetes project upstream as does the Red Hat teams. So one of the ways that we collaborate with the Red Hat team is in open-source. One of those projects is on a new project called ACK. It was on controllers for Kubernetes and this is a kind of Kubernetes friendly way for my customers to use an API to manage AWS services. So that's one of the things that we're looking forward to as that goes GA wobbling out into both ROSA and onto our other services. >> Awesome. I got to ask you guys this while you're here, because it's very rare to get two luminaries within AWS on the open-source side. This has been a huge build-out over the many, many years for AWS, and some people really kind of don't understand kind of the position. So take a minute to clarify the position of AWS on open-source. You guys are very active in a lot of projects. You mentioned upstream with Kubernetes in other areas. I've had many countries with Adrian Cockcroft on this, as well as others within AWS. Huge proponents web services, I mean, you go back to the original Amazon. I mean, Jeff Barr was saying 15 years ago some of those API's are still in play here. API's back in 15 years ago, that was kind of not main stream at that time. So you had open standards, really made Amazon web services successful and you guys are continuing it but as the modern era is very enterprise, like and you see a lot of legacy, you seeing a lot more operations that they're going to be driven by open technologies that you guys are investing in. I'll take a minute to explain what AWS is doing and what you guys care about and your mission? >> Yeah. Well, why don't I start? And then we'll kick it over to Bob 'cause I think Bob can also talk about some of the key contribution sides, but the best way to think about it is kind of in three different pillars. So let's start with the first one, which is, around the fact of ensuring that our customer's favorite open-source projects run best on AWS. Since 2006, we've been helping our customers operationalize their open-source investments and really kind of achieve that scale and focus more on how they use and innovate on the products versus how they set up and run. And for myself being an open-source since the late 90s, the biggest opportunity, yet challenge was the access to the technology, but it still required you as a customer to learn how to set up, configure, operationalized support and sustain. AWS removes that heavy lifting and, again, back to that earlier point from the beginning of AWS, we helped customers scale and implement their Apache services, their database services, all of these different types of open-source projects to make them really work exceptionally well on AWS. And back to that point, make sure that AWS was the best place for their open-source projects. I think the second thing that we do, and you're seeing that today with what we're doing with ROSA and Red Hat is we partner with open-source leaders from Red Hat to Redis and Confluent to a number of different players out there, Grafana, and Prometheus, to even foundations like the LF and the CNCF. We partner with these leaders to ensure that we're working together to grow grow the overall experience and the overall the overall pie, if you will. And this kind of gets into that point you were making John in that, the old world legacy proprietary stuff, there's a huge chance for refresh and new opportunity and rethinking or modernization if you will, as you come into the cloud having the expertise and the partnerships with these key players is as enterprises move in, is so crucial. And then the third piece I'd like to talk about that's important to our open-source strategies is really around contribution. We have a number of projects that we've delivered ourselves. I think the two most recent ones that really come top of mind for me is, what we did with Babel Fish, as well as with OpenSearch. So contributing and driving a true open-source project that helps our customers, take advantage of things like an SQL, a proprietary to open-source SQL conversion tool, or what we're doing to make Elasticsearch, the opportune or the primary open platform for our customers. But it's not just about those services, it's also collaborating with key industry initiatives. Bob's at the forefront of that with what we're doing with the CNCF around things, like Kubernetes and Prometheus et cetera, Bob you want to jump in on some of that? >> Sure, I think the one thing I would add here is that customers love using those open-source projects. The one of the challenges with them frequently is security. And this is job zero to AWS. So a lot of the collaboration work we do, a lot of the work that we do on upstream projects is go specifically around kind of security oriented things because that is what customers expect when they come to get a managed service at AWS. Some of those efforts are somewhat unsung because you generally do more work and less talk, in security oriented things. But projects across AWS, that's always a key contribution focus for us. >> Good way to call out security too. I think that's being built-in to the everything now, that's an operating model. People call it shift-left day two operations. Whatever you want to look at it. You got this nice formation going between under the hood kind of programmability of the infrastructure at scale. And then you have the modern application development which is just beginning, programmable DevSecOps. It's funny, Bob, I'd love to get your take on this because I remember in the 80s and during the Unix generation I used to peddle software under the table. Like, here's a copy of, you just don't tell anyone, people in the younger generation don't get the fact that it wasn't always open. And so now you have open and you have this idea of an enterprise that's going to be a system management system view. So you got engineering and you got computer science kind of coming together, this SRE middle layer. You're hearing that as a, kind of a new discipline. So DevOps kind of has won. I mean, we kind of knew this for many, many years. I said this in 2013 on theCUBE actually at re-inventing. I just recently shared that clip. But okay, now you've got SecOps, DevSecOps. So now you have an era where it's a system thinking and open-source is driving all of that. So can you share your perspective because this is kind of where the puck is going. It's an open to open world. That's going to have to be open and scalable. How does open-source and you guys take it to the next level to give that same scale and reliability? What's your vision? >> The key here is really around automation and what we're seeing you could look at Kubernetes. Kubernetes, is essentially a robot. It was like the early design of it was built around robotics principles. So it's a giant software robot and the world has changed. If you just look at the influx of all kinds of automation to not just the DevOps world but to all industries, you see a similar kind of trend. And so the world of IT operations person is changing from doing the work that the robot did and replacing it with the robot to managing large numbers of robots. And in this case, the robots are like a little early and a little hard to talk to. And so, you end up using languages like YAML and other things, but it turns out robots still just do what you tell them to do. And so one of the things you have to do is be really, really careful because robots will go and do whatever it is you ask them to do. On the other hand, they're really, really good at doing that. So in the security area, they take the research points to the largest single source of security issues, being people making manual mistakes. And a lot of people are still a little bit terrified if human beings aren't touching things on the way to production. In AWS, we're terrified if humans aren't touching it. And that is a super hard chasm to cross and open-source projects have really, are really playing a big role in what's really a IT wide migration to a whole new set of, not just tools, but organizational approaches. >> What's your reaction to that? Because we're talking that essentially software concepts, because if you write bad code, the code will execute what you did. So assuming it compiles left in the old days. Now, if you're going to scale a large scale operations that has dynamic capabilities, services being initiated in terminating tear down up started, you need the automation, but if you really don't design it right, you could be screwed. This is a huge deal. >> This is one reason why we've put so much effort into getops that you can think of it as a more narrowly defined subset of the DevOps world with a specific set of principles around using kind of simplified declarative approaches, along with robots that converge the desired state, converge the system to the desired state. And when you get into large distributed systems, you end up needing to take those kinds of approaches to get it to work at scale. Otherwise you have problems. >> Yeah, just adding to that. And it's funny, you said DevOps has won. I actually think DevOps has won, but DevOps hasn't changed (indistinct) Bob, you were right, the reality is it was founded back what quite a while ago, it was more around CICD in the enterprise and the closed data center. And it was one of those where automation and runbooks took addressed the fact that, every pair of hands between service requests and service delivery recreated or created an issue. So that growth and that mental model of moving from a waterfall, agile to DevOps, you built it, you run it, type of a model, I think is really, really important. But as it comes out into the cloud, you no longer have those controls of the data center and you actually have infinite scale. So back to your point of you got to get this right. You have to architect correctly you have to make sure that your code is good, you have to make sure that you have full visibility. This is where it gets really interesting at AWS. And some of the things that we're tying in. So whether we're talking about getops like what Bob just went through, or what you brought up with DevSecOps, you also have things like, AIOps. And so looking at how we take our machine learning tools to really implement the appropriate types of code reviews to assessing your infrastructure or your choices against well-architected principles and providing automated remediation is key, adding to that is observability, developers, especially in a highly distributed environment need to have better understanding, fidelity and touchpoints of what's going on with our application as it runs in production. And so what we do with regards to the work we have in observability around Grafana and Prometheus projects only accelerate that co-whole concept of continuous monitoring and continuous observability, and then kind of really, adding to that, I think it was last month, we introduce our fault injection simulator, a chaos engineering tool that, again takes advantage of all of this automation and machine learning to really help our developers, our customers operate at scale. And make sure that when they are releasing code, they're releasing code that is not just great in a small sense, it works on my laptop, but it works great in a highly distributed massively scaled environment around the globe. >> You know, this is one of the things that impresses me about Red Hat this year. And I've said this before all the covers events I've covered with them is that they get the cloud scale piece and I think their relationship with you guys shows that I think, DevOps has won, but it's the gift that keeps giving in open-source because what you have here is no longer a conversation about the cloud moving to the cloud. It's the cloud has become the operating model. So the conversation shifts to much more complicated enterprise or, and or intelligent Edge, and whether it's industrial or human or whatever, you got a data problem. So that's about a programmability issue at scale. So what's interesting is that Red Hat is on those bandwagon. It's an operating system. I mean, basically it's a distributed computing paradigm, essentially ala AWS concept as a cloud. Now it goes to the Edge, it's just distributed services via an open-source. So what's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, it's back to the original point, John where I said, any CIO is thinking about their IT environment from data center to cloud, to Edge and the more consistency automation and, kind of tools that they're at their disposal to enable them to create that kind of, I think you started to talk about an infrastructure the whole as code infrastructure's code, it's now, almost everything is code. And that starts with the operating system, obviously. And that's why this is so critical that we're partnering with companies like Red Hat on our vision and their vision, because they aligned to where our customers were ultimately going. Bob, you want to, you want to add to that? >> Bob: No, I think you said it. >> John: You guys are crushing it. Bob, one quick question for you, while I got you here. You mentioned getops, I've heard this before, I kind of understand it. Can you just quickly define from your perspective. What is getops? >> Sure, well, getops is really taking the, I said before it's a kind of narrowed version of DevOps. Sure, it's infrastructure is code. Sure, you're doing things incrementally but the getops principle, it's back to like, what are the good, what are the best practices we are managing large numbers, large numbers of robots. And in this case, it's around this idea of declarative intent. So instead of having systems that reach into production and change things, what you do is you set up the defined declared state of the system that you want and then leave the robots to constantly work to converge the state there. That seems kind of nebulous. Let me give you like a really concrete example from Kubernetes, by the way the entire Kubernetes system design is based on this. You say, I want five pods running in production and that's running my application. So what Kubernetes does is it sits there and it constantly checks, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods. Do I have five? Well, what happens if the machine running one of those pods goes away. Now, suddenly it goes and checks and says, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods, but there's four pods. What action do I take to now try to get the system back to the state. So you don't have a system running, reaching out and checking externally to Kubernetes, you let Kubernetes do the heavy lifting there. And so it goes through, goes through a loop of, Oh, I need to start a new pod and then it converges the system state back to running five pods. So it's really taking that kind of declarative intent combined with constant convergence loops to fully production at scale. >> That's awesome. Well, we do a whole segment on state and stateless future, but we don't have time. I do want to summarize real quick. We're here at the Red Hat Summit 2021. You got Red Hat OpenShift on AWS. The big news, Bob and Peder tell us quickly in summary, why AWS? Why Red Hat? Why better together? Give the quick overview, Bob, we'll start with you. >> Bob, you want to kick us off? >> I'm going to repeat peanut butter and chocolate. Customers love OpenShift, they love managed services. They want a simplified operations, simplified supply chain. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the OpenShift that you want fully managed on AWS, where you get all of the security and scale. Yeah, I can't add much to that. Other than saying, Red Hat is powerhouse obviously on data centers it is the operating system of the data center. Bringing together the best in the cloud, with the best in the data center is such a huge benefit to our customers. Because back to your point, John, our customers are thinking about what are they doing from data center to cloud, to Edge and bringing the best of those pieces together in a seamless solution is so, so critical. And that that's why AW. (indistinct) >> Thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it. I just want to give you guys a plug for you and being humble, but you've worked in the CNCF and standards bodies has been well, well known and I'm getting the word out. Congratulations for the commitment to open-source. Really appreciate the community. Thanks you, thank you for your time. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, Cube coverage here, covering Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John Ferry, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (smart gentle music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> The ascendancy of massive clouds underscored the limits of human labor. People, they simply don't scale at the pace of today's technology. And this trend created an automation mandate for IT which has been further accentuated by the pandemic. The world is witnessing the build-out of a massively distributed system that comprises on-prem apps, public clouds and edge computing. The challenge we face is how to go from managing things you can see and touch to cost effectively managing, securing and scaling these vast systems. It requires an automation first mindset. Hello, everyone. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to AnsibleFest 2020. We have a great panel to wrap up this show. With me are our three excellent guests and CUBE alums. Ashesh Badani is the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Ashesh, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me on again, Dave. >> Stefanie Chiras is Vice President and General Manager of the RHEL Business Unit and my sports buddy. Stefanie, glad to see you back in the New England area. I knew you'd be back. >> Yeah, good to see you, Dave. Thanks for having us today. >> You're very welcome. And then finally, Joe Fitzgerald, longtime CUBE alum, Vice President and General Manager of the Management Business Unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you. >> Hey, Dave, good to be here with you. >> Ashesh, I'm going to start with you. Lay out the big picture for us. So how do you see this evolution to what we sometimes talk about as hybrid cloud, but really truly a hybrid cloud environment across these three platforms that I just talked about? >> Yeah, let me start off by echoing something that most of your viewers have probably heard in the past. There's always this notion about developers, developers, developers. And you know, that still holds true. We aren't going away from that anymore. Developers are the new kingmakers. But increasingly, as the scope and complexity of applications and services that are deployed in this heterogeneous environment increases, it's more and more about automation, automation, automation. In the times we live in today, even, you know, before dealing with the crises that, you know, we have, just the sheer magnitude of requirements that are being placed on enterprises and expectations from customers require us to be more and more focused on automating tasks which humans just can't keep up with. So you know, as we look forward, this conversation here today, you know, what Ansible's doing, you know, is squarely aimed at dealing with this complexity that we all face. >> So Stefanie, I wonder if you could talk about what it's going to take to implement what I call this true hybrid cloud, this connection and management of this environment. RHEL is obviously a key piece of that. That's going to be your business unit, but take us through your thoughts there. >> Yeah, so I'm kind of building on what Ashesh said. When we look at this hybrid cloud world, right, which now hybrid is much more than it was considered five years ago. It used to be hybrid was on-prem versus off-prem. Now, hybrid translates to many layers in the stack. It can be VMs hybrid with containers. It can be on-prem with off-prem and clearly with edge involved, as well. Whenever you start to require the ability to bridge across these, that's where we focus on having a platform that allows you to access sort of all of those and be able to deploy your applications in a simple way. When I look at what customers require, it's all about speed of deploying applications, right, build, deploy and run your applications. It's about stability, which is clearly where we're focused on RHEL being able to provide that stability across multiple types of hybrid deployment models. And third is all about scale. It is absolutely all about scale and that's across multiple ranges in hybrid, be it on-prem, off-prem, edge and that's where all of this automation comes in, so to me, it's really about where do you make those strategic decisions that allow you to choose, right, for the flexibility that you need and still be able to deploy applications with speed, have that stability, resiliency, and be able to scale. >> So Joe, let's talk about your swim lane and it's weird to even use that term, right? 'Cause as Stefanie just said, we're kind of breaking down all these silos that we talk in terms of platform, but how do you see this evolving, and specifically, what's the contribution from a management perspective? >> Right, so Stefanie and Ashesh talked about sort of speed, scale and complexity. Right, people are trying to deploy things faster or larger scale, and oh, by the way, keep everything highly available and secure. That's a challenge, right? And so, you know, interestingly enough, Red Hat, about five years ago, we recognized that automation was going to be a problem as people were moving into open hybrid clouds, which we've been working with our customers for years on. And so we acquired this small company called Ansible, which had some really early emerging technology, all open source, right, to do automation. And what we've done over the past five years is we've really amplified that automation and amplified the innovation in that community to be able to provide automation across a wide array of domains that you need to automate, right, and to be able to plug that in to all the different processes that people need in order to be able to go faster, but to track, manage, secure and govern these kind of environments. So we made this bet years ago and it's paying off for Red Hat in very big ways. >> I mean, no doubt about it. I mean, when you guys bought Ansible, so it wasn't clear that it was going to be the clear leader. It is now. I mean, it's pulled ahead of Chef, Puppet. You saw, you know, VMware bought Salt, but I mean, Ansible very clearly has, based on our surveys, the greatest market momentum. We're going to talk about that. I know some of the other analysts have chimed in on this, but let me come back to this notion of on-prem and cloud and edge and this is complicated. I mean, the edge, it's kind of its own island, isn't it? I mean, you got the IT and the OT schism, so maybe you could talk a little bit about how you see those worlds coming together, the cloud, the on-prem, the edge. Maybe Stefanie, you can start. >> Yeah, I think the magic, Dave, is going to happen when it's not its own island, right, as we start to see this world driven by data cause the spread of a data center to be really dis-aggregated and allow that compute to move out closer to the data, the magic happens when it doesn't feel like an island, right, that's the beauty and the promise of hybrid. So when you start to look at what can you provide that is consistent that serves as a single language that you can talk to from on-prem, off-prem and edge, you know, it all comes down to, for us, having a platform that you can build once and deploy across all of those, but the real delicacy with edge is there are some different deployment models. I think that comes into deployment space and we're clearly getting feedback from customers. We're working on some capabilities where edge requires some different deployment models in the ways you update, et cetera, and thanks to all of you out there who are working with us upstream in order to deliver that. And I think the second place where it's unique is in this ability to manage and automate out at the edge, but our goal is certainly at our platform levels, whether it be on RHEL, whether it be on OpenShift to provide that consistent platform that allows you that ease of deployment, then you got to manage and automate it and that's where the whole Ansible and the ecosystem really plays in. You need that ecosystem and that's always what I love about AnsibleFest is this community comes together and it's a vibrant community, for sure. >> Well, I mean, Ashesh, you guys are betting big on this and I often think of the cloud is just this one big cloud. You got the on-prem cloud, you got the public clouds. Edge becomes just an extension of that cloud. Is that how you think about it and what is it actually going to take to make that edge not an island? >> Yeah, great point, Dave, and that's exactly how we think about it. We've always thought about our vision of the cloud as being a platform and abstraction that spans all the underlying infrastructure that the user can take advantage of, so if it happens to reside in a data center, some in a private cloud running off a data center, more increasingly in the public cloud setting, and as Stefanie called out, we're also starting to see edge deployments come in. We're seeing, you know, big build-outs in the work we're doing with telecom providers from a 5G perspective that's helping drive that. We're seeing, if you will, IOT-like opportunities with, let's say, the automotive sector or some in the retail sector, as well. And so this fabric, if you will, needs to span this entire set of deployment that a customer will take advantage of. And Joe started touching on this a little bit, right, with this notion of the speed, scale and complexity, so we see this platform needing to expand to all these footprints that customers are using. At the same time, the requirements that they have, even when they're going out the edge, is the same with regard to what they see in the data center and the public cloud, so putting all that together really is our sweet spot. That's our focus. And to the point you're making, Dave, that's where we're making a huge bet across all of Red Hat. >> So I mentioned, you know, some of our research and I do these breaking analysis segments every week and recently I was digging into cloud and specifically was interested in hybrid and multi. And you know, hybrid been I think pretty well understood for awhile. Multi I think was a lot of, you know, a lot of talk, but it's becoming real and the data really shows that. It shows OpenShift and Ansible have momentum. I mentioned that before. Yeah, you know, obviously VMware is there, but clearly Red Hat is well positioned specifically in multicloud and hybrid. And I know some of the other analyst firms have picked up on this. What are you guys seeing in the market? Maybe Joe, you can chime in and Ashesh, you can maybe add some color. >> Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of fashion, right, around hybrid and multicloud today, so every vendor is jumping on with multicloud storing. And you know, a lot of the vendors' strategies are, pick my solution and vertically use my stuff in the public cloud on-premise, maybe even at the edge, right, and you'll be fine. And you know, obviously customers don't like lock-in. They like to be able to take advantage of the best services, availability, security, different things that are available in each of these different clouds, right? So there is a strong preference for hybrid and multicloud. Red Hat is sort of the Switzerland of hybrid and multicloud because we enable you to run your workloads across all these different substrates, whether it's in public clouds, multiple, right, into the data center and physical, virtual, bare metal, out to the edge and edge is not a single homogeneous, you know, set of hardware or even implementation. It varies a lot by vertical, so you have a lot of diversity, right? And so Red Hat is really good at helping provide the platforms like OpenShift and RHEL that are going to provide that consistency across those different environments or also in the case of Ansible to provide automation that's going to match the physics of management and automation that are required across each of those different environments. Trust me, managing or automating something at the edge and with very small footprint of some device across the constraint network is very, very different than managing things in a public cloud or in a data center and that's where I think Red Hat is really focused and that's our sweet spot, helping people manage those environments. >> And Ashesh, you guys have obviously put a lot of effort there. If you could maybe comment. >> Yeah, I was just going to say, Dave, I'll add just really quickly to what Joe said. He said it well. But the thing I will add is the way for us to succeed here is to follow the user, follow the customer. Right, instead of us just coming out with regard to what we believe the path to be, you know, we're really kind of working closely with the actual customers that we have. So for example, recently been working with a large water utility in Italy, but they're thinking about, you know, the world that they live in and how can they go off and, you know, have kiosks that are spread throughout Italy, able to provide reports with regard to the quality of the water that's available, as well as other services to all their citizens. But it's really interesting use case for us to go off and pursue because in some sense, you can ask yourself, well, is that public cloud? Are they going to take advantage of those services? Is that, you know, private cloud? Is that data center, is that IOT, is that edge? At a certain point in time, what you've got to think about is, well, we've got to provide integrated end-to-end solution that spans all of these different worlds, and so as long as I think we keep that focus, as long as we make sure our North Star is really what the user's trying to do, what problem they're trying to solve, I think we'll come out just fine on the other side of this. >> So I'd love to get all your thoughts, all three of you, on just what's going on in containers, generally, Kubernetes, specifically. I mean, everybody knows it's a hot space and the data shows that it is maturing, but it's amazing to me how much momentum it still has. I mean, it's like the new shiny toy, but it's everywhere and so it's able to sort of maintain that velocity and it's really becoming the go-to cloud native development platform, so the question is how is Red Hat, you know, helping your customers connect OpenShift to the rest of their IT infrastructure, platforms, their processes, the tools. I mean, who wants to start? I'd love to hear from all three of you. Ashesh, why don't you kick it off and then we'll just go left to right. >> So Dave, we've spoken to you and to folks the CUBE, as well, other for many years on this. We've made a huge investment in the Kubernetes market and been one of the earliest to do that and we continue to believe in the promise that it delivers to users, this notion of being able to have an environment that customers can use regardless of the underlying choices that they make. Here's an extremely powerful one, it's truly an open source, right? This is key to, you know, what we do. Increasingly, what we're working on is to ensure that one, if you make a commitment to Kubernetes and increasingly we see lots of customers around the world doing that, that we ensure that we're working closely, that our entire portfolio helps support that. So if you're going to make a choice with regard to Kubernetes base deployment, we help support you running it yourself wherever it is that you choose to run it, we help support you whether you choose to have us manage on your behalf and then also make sure we're providing an entire portfolio of services, both within Red Hat as well as from third parties so that you have the most productive, integrated experience possible. >> Okay, and Stefanie, loved your point of view on this, and Joe, I'd love to understand how you're bridging kind of the Ansible and Kubernetes communities, but Stefanie, why don't you chime in first? >> Yeah, I'll quickly add to what Ashesh said and talked about well on really the promise and the value of containers, but particularly from a RHEL perspective, we have taken all our capabilities and knowledge in the Linux space and we have taken that to apply it to OpenShift, right, because Kubernetes and containers is just another way to deploy Linux, so making sure that that underpinning is stable, secure and resilient and tied to an ecosystem, right? An ecosystem of various architectures, an ecosystem of ISVs and tooling, right? We've pulled that together and everything we've done in Linux for, you know, over decades now at Red Hat and we've put that into that customer experience around OpenShift to deploy containers, so we've really built, it has been a portfolio-wide effort, as Ashesh alluded to, and of course, it passes over to Ansible as well with Joe's portfolio. >> Yeah, we talked about this upfront, Joe. The communities are so crucial, so how are you bridging those Ansible and Kubernetes communities? What's your thought on that? >> Well, a quick note about those communities. So you know, OpenShift is built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects. Kubernetes is number seven in the top 10 open source projects based on the number of contributors. Turns out Ansible is number nine, right? So if you think about it, these are two incredibly robust communities, right? On the one hand, building the container platform in Kubernetes and in the other around Ansible and automation. It turns out that as the need for this digital acceleration and building these container-based applications comes along, there's a lot of other things that have to be done when you deploy container-based applications, whether it's infrastructure automation, right, to expand and manage and automate the infrastructure that you're running your container-based applications on, creating more clusters, you know, configuring storage, network, you know, counts, things like that, but also connecting to other systems in the environment that need to be integrated with around, you know, ITSM or systems of record, change management, inventory, cost, things like that, so what we've done is we've integrated Ansible, right, in a very powerful way with OpenShift through our advanced cluster management capability, which allows us to provide an easy way to instrument Ansible during critical points, whether it's you're deploying new clusters out there or you're deploying a new version of an application or a new application for the first time, whether you're checking policy, right, to ensure that, you know, the thing is secure and that, you know, you can govern these environments, right, that you're relying on. So we've really now tied together two sort of de facto standards, OpenShift built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects and then Ansible, or Red Hat, has taken this innovation in the community and created these certified content collections, platforms and capabilities that people can actually build and rely on and know that it's going to work. >> Ashesh, I mean, Red Hat has earned the right, really, to play in both the cloud native world and of course the traditional infrastructure world, but I'm interested in what you're seeing there, how you're bringing those two worlds together. Are they still, you know, largely separate? Are you seeing traditional IT? I mean, you're certainly seeing them lean in to more and more cloud native, but what are you guys doing specifically to kind of bring those worlds together? >> Yeah, increasingly it's really hard to be able to separate out those worlds, right? So in the past, we used to call it shadow IT. There really is no shadow IT anymore, right? This is IT. So we've embraced that completely. You know, our take on that is to say there are certain applications that are going to be appropriate for being run in a data center a certain way. There are certain other workloads that'll find their way appropriate for the public cloud. We want to make sure we're meeting them across, but what we want to do is constantly introduce technologies to help support the choices customers make. What do I mean by that? Let me give a couple examples. One is, you know, we can say customers have VMs that are based out in specific environments and they can only run as VMs. That code can't be containerized for a variety of reasons, right? You know, hard to re-architect that, don't have the funds, you know, have certain security compliance reasons. Well, what if we could take those VMs and then have them be run in containers in a native fashion? Wouldn't that be extremely powerful value proposition to run containers and then VMs as containers sort of side by side with Kubernetes orchestrating them all. So that's a capability we call open source virtualization. We've introduced that and made that generally available within our platform. Another one, which I think Joe starting to touch on a little bit here, is both around this notion of Ansible, as well as advanced cluster management. And say, once technologies like Ansible are familiar to our customers, how about if we find ways to introduce things like the operator framework to help support people's use of Ansible and introduce technologies like advanced cluster management, which allows for us to say, well, regardless of where you run your clusters, whether you run your Kubernetes clusters on premise, you run them in the cloud, right, we can imagine a consistent fashion and manage, you know, health and policy and compliance of applications across that entire state. So David, question's extremely good one, right, but what we are trying to do is try to be able to say, you know, we are going to just span those two worlds and provide as many tools as possible to ensure that customers feel like, you know, the shift, if you will, or the move between traditional enterprise software application development and the more modern cloud native can be bridged as seamlessly as possible. >> Yeah, Joe, we heard a lot of this at AnsibleFest, so the ACM as a key component of your innovation, and frankly, your competitive posture. Anything you would add to what Ashesh just shared? >> Well, I think that one of the things that Red Hat is really good at is we take management and automation as sort of an intrinsic part of what needs to go on. It's not an afterthought. You just don't go build something, go, "Oh I need management," go out and, you know, go get something, right, so we've been working on, sort of automation and management for many, many years, right, so we build it in concert with these platforms, right, and we understand the physics of these different environments, so we're very focused on that from inception, as opposed to an afterthought when people sort of paint themselves into a corner or have management challenges they can't deal with. >> There's a lot of analogs in our business, isn't there? Management is a bolt-on and security is a bolt-on. It just doesn't work that well and certainly doesn't scale. Stefanie, I want to come back to you and I want to come back to the edge. We hear a lot of people talking about extending their deployments to the edge in the future. I mean, you look at what IBM's doing. They're essentially betting its business on RHEL and OpenShift and betting that its customers are going to do the same as well are you. Maybe talk about, you know, what you're doing to specifically extend RHEL to the edge. >> Yeah, Dave, so we've been looking at this space consistent with our strategy, as Ashesh talked about, right? Our goal is to make sure that it all looks and feels the same and provides one single Linux experience. We've been building on a number of those aspects for quite some time, things like being able to deal with heterogeneous architectures, as an example, being able to deal with, you know, having Arm components and x86 components and power components and being able to leverage all of that from multiple vendors and being able to deploy. Those are things we've been focused on for a long time and now when you move into the space of the edge, certainly we're seeing, you know, essentially data center level hardware move out to be dis-aggregated and dispersed as they move it closer to the data and where that's coming in and where the analysis needs to be done, but some of those foundational things that we've been working on for years starts to pay off because the edge tends to be more heterogeneous all the way from an architecture level to an application level, so now we're seeing some asks. We've been working upstream in order to pull in some features that drive capabilities around specifically updating, deploying those updates, doing rollbacks and things like that, so we're focused on that. But really, it's about pulling together the capabilities of having multiple architectures, dealing with heterogeneous infrastructure out there at the edge, being able to reliably deploy it even when, for example, we have customers who they deploy their hardware and they can't touch it for years. How do they make sure that that's out there in a stable environment that they can count on? And then, you know, adding in things like containerization. We talked about the magic of that, being able to deploy an application consistently and being able to deploy a single container out there to the edge. We're thinking about it all the way from the architecture up to how the application gets deployed and it's going to take the whole portfolio to do that as you need to manage it, as you need to deploy containers, so it's a focus across the company for how we deal with that. >> And as we were talking about before, you know, it takes a village. You know that bromide, but it does, requires an ecosystem of jobs. I mean, there's some real technical challenges in R&D that has to happen. I mean, you've got to be, you know, you're talking about cloud native in all three different clouds, and you know, and not just the big three, but other clouds and then bringing that to the edge, so there's some clear technical challenges, but there's also some business challenges out there. So you know, what are you seeing in that regard? You know, what are some of those things that you hope to solve by bridging that gap? >> Well, I think one of the things we're trying to do and I'm focused on the management and automation side is to provide a common set of management tooling of automation, right, and I think Ansible fits that quite well. So for the past five years since Ansible's been part of Red Hat, we've expanded from, you know, they started off initially doing configuration management, right? We've expanded to include, you know, network and storage and security, now edge. At AnsibleFest, we demonstrated things like serverless event-driven automation, right, building an OpenShift serverless in Knative. We're trying to expand the use cases for Ansible so that there's a simplicity, there's a tool reduction, right, across all these environments and you don't have to go deal with nine vendors, and you know, 17 different tools to try to manage each element here to be able to provide a common set. It reduces complexity, cost and allows skills to be able to be reused across these different areas. It's going to all be about digital acceleration, right, and reducing that complexity. And one last comment. One of the reasons we bought Ansible years ago is the architecture, it's agent-less. Many of our competitors that you hear, the first thing they want to do is go deploy an agent somewhere and that creates its own ongoing burden of, do I have the latest version of the agent? Is it secure? Does it fit on the device? As Stefanie mentioned, is there a version that fits on the architecture the device is running on? It starts getting really, really complicated. So Ansible is just simple, elegant, agent-less. We've expanded the domains we can automate with it and we've expanded sort of the modality. How can I call it? User, driven by an event, as part of some life cycle management, app deployment, Ansible plugs right in. >> Well, Joe, you can tell you're a management guy, right? Agents, another thing that has to be managed. You just laundry list of stuff. (laughs) I want to come back to this notion Joe just touched on, this digital transformation. They say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, COVID broke everything. And I got to say, I mean, all the talk about digital transformation over the last, you know, several years, yes, it was certainly happening, but there was also a lot of lip service going on and now if you're not digital, you're out of business. And so, you know, given everything that we've seen in the last, you know, whatever, 150, 200 days or so, what's the impact that you're seeing on customers' digital transformation initiatives, and you know, what is Red Hat doing to respond? Maybe Ashesh, you could start and we can get feedback from the others. >> Yeah, David, it's an unfortunate thing to say, right, but there's that meme going around with regard to who's responsible for digital transformation and it's a little bit of I guess gallows humor to call it COVID, but we're increasingly seeing that customers and the journey that they're on is one that they haven't really gotten off, even with this, if you will, change of environment that's come about. So projects that we've seen in play, you know, are still underway. We've seen acceleration, actually, in some places with regard to making services more easily accessible. Anyone who's invested in hybrid cloud or public cloud is seeing huge value with regard to being able to consume services remotely, being able to do this on demand and that's a big part of the value proposition, you know, that comes forward. And increasingly what we're trying to do is try to say, how can we engage and assist you in these times, right? So our services team, for example, has transformed to be able to help customers remotely. Our support team has gone off and work more and more with customers. For a company like Red Hat, that hasn't been completely, if you will, difficult thing to do mostly because we've been so used to working in a distributed fashion, working remotely with our customers, so that's not a challenge in itself, but making sure customers understand that this is really a critical journey for them to go on and how we can kind of help them, you know, walk through that has been good and we're finding that that message really resonates. Right, so both Stefanie and Joe talked a little bit about, you know, how essentially our entire portfolio is now built around, you know, ensuring that if you'd like to consume on demand, we can help support you, if you'd like to consume in a traditional fashion, we can help you. That amount of flexibility that we provide to customers is really coming to bear at this point in time. >> So maybe we could wrap with, we haven't really dropped any customer names. Stefanie and Joe and Ashesh, I wonder if you have any stories you can share or, you know, customer examples that we could close on that are exciting to you this year. >> So I can start, if that's okay. >> Please. >> So an area that I find super interesting from a customer perspective that we're increasingly seeing more and more customers go down is sheer interest in, if you will, kind of diversity of use cases that we're seeing, right? So we see this, for example, in automotive, right? So whether it's a BMW or a Volkswagen, we see this now in health care with the ACA, in we'll say a little bit more traditional industries like energy with Exxon or Schlumberger around increasingly embrace of AIML, right? So artificial machine learning, if you will, advanced analytics being much more proactive with regard to how they can take data that's coming in, adjust it, be able to make sense of the patterns and then be able to, you know, have some action that has real business impact. So this whole trend towards, you know, AIML workloads that they can run is extremely powerful. We work very closely with Nvidia, as well, and we're seeing a lot of interest, for example, in being able to run a Kubernetes-based platform, support Nvidia GPUs for specific class workloads. There's a whole bunch of customers, people in financial services that, you know, this is a rich area of interest. You know, we've seen great use cases for example around grid with Deutsche Bank. And so, to me, I'm personally really excited to see kind of that embrace the PC from our customers regard to saying there's a whole lot of data that's out there. You know, how can we essentially use all of these tools that we have in place? You know, we talk about containers, microservices, DevOps, you know, all of this and then put it to bear to really put to work and get business value. >> Great, thank you for that, Ashesh. Stefanie, Joe, Stefanie, anything you want to add or final thoughts? >> Yeah, just one thing to add and I think Ashesh talked to a whole number across industry verticals and customers. But I think the one thing that I've seen through COVID is that if nothing else, it's taught us that change is the only constant and I think, you know, our whole vision of open hybrid cloud is how to enable customers to be flexible and do what they need to do when they need to do it, wherever they want to deploy, however they want to build. We provide them some consistency, right, across that as they make those changes and I think as I've worked with customers here through since the beginning of COVID, it's been amazing to me the diversity of how they've had to respond. Some have doubled down in the data center, some have doubled down on going public cloud and to me, this is the proof of the strategy that we're on, right, that open hybrid cloud is about delivering flexibility, and boy, nothing's taught us the need for flexibility like COVID has recently, so I think there's a lot more to do. I think pulling together the platforms and the automation is what is going to enable the ability to do that in a simple fashion. >> So Joe, you get the final word. I mean, AnsibleFest 2020, I mean, it's weird, right? But that's the way these events are, all virtual. Hopefully, next year we got a shot at being face to face, but bring us home, please. >> Yeah, I got to tell ya, having, you know, 20,000 or so of your closest friends get together to talk about automation for a couple of days is just amazing. That just shows you sort of the power of it. You know, we have a lot of customers this week at AnsibleFest telling you their story, you know, CarMax and ExxonMobil, you know, BlueCross BlueShield. I mean, there's a number across all different verticals, globally, Cepsa from Europe. I mean, just an incredibly, you know, diverse array of customers and use cases. I would encourage people to look at some of the customer presentations that were on at AnsibleFest, listen to the customer telling you what they're doing with Ansible, deploying their networks, deploying their apps, managing their infrastructure, container apps, traditional apps, connecting it, moving faster. They have amazing stories. I encourage people to go look. >> Well, guys, thanks so much for helping us wrap up AnsibleFest 2020. It was really a great discussion. You guys have always been awesome CUBE guests. Really appreciate the partnership and so thank you. >> Thanks a lot, Dave. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks, Dave. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (calm music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and OpenShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Miniman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, well, That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. >>So that, I think, by far   >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the RHEL side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on OpenShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on OpenShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on OpenShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> That's one. On the RHEL side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. 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>> From around the globe, it's The Cube, with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, and welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, this is The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat 2020, bringing you guests from Red Hat and their partner ecosystem, practitioners, where they are around the globe, bringing to them this digital event, and while we wish we could all be together in person, we'll just be together apart for 2020. Happy to welcome to the program, a longtime Red Hatter, but first time, on The Cube, Rich Sharples, who's the senior director of product management inside Red Hat, Rich, thank you so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for the invitation, great to be here. >> All right, so the topic we're going to talk about today is something you've got a long background of the middleware space. But in, Quarkus so, I personally was not familiar with Quarkus. Obviously we know, god, I believe someone told me once that there's like, 2 million open source projects out there, so I believe I can be forgiven for not having every one of them memorized there, but of course anybody in our community is going to know Java. What a huge impact that has had on the industry. Linux and Java are two of the, you know, major movers of how we, you know, build an, you know, deal with application today, so give us a little bit of a framework as to what Quarkus is, you know, why it was created. >> Yeah, so it's no secret that as organizations and developers move to this kind of new styled cloud native development, developing applications running in containers or in a kind of serverless environment that Java is not necessarily the best fit. Java does many incredible things, it's an amazing field of engineering. But many of the coolest things it does, assumes that it's going to be a long running application, it can do this cool dynamic class loading and dynamic optimization as the application runs. Those things are pretty impressive, but they're also fairly, very heavyweight. And in our kind of ephemeral environments, whether containers or functions of service, you don't have long running applications. And you can't make use of those things, so in a Java environment you pay for those radical features that you don't necessarily get any benefit from them. So, you know, where we're really trying to lay focus is ensure developers to continue to use Quarkus, it's still the, you know, the dominant language for enterprise development. You still get the benefits of these new architectures, so ensuring that Java continues to be you know, performant and efficient in these new you know, constrained environments. >> Okay, excellent, so we're not calling it cloud native Java though, right Rich? But we are bringing, if I heard right, Java for things like containers Kubernetes, I even heard functions as a service so, we're talking to server lists of you know, open shift server lists something that's being talked about this week. So help us understand you know, if Java was long in the tooth. You know, what stays the same, what's different, how have people been managing and you know building applications in this environment, because obviously you know, we've been dealing with containers for a number of years now, so what have they been doing so far and, you know, why is Quarkus different from some of the alternatives that are out there. >> Really, the goal is to introduce those that stayed the same. It's not a different language, it's not a fork. It is Java, you're writing Java applications, essentially in the same way you used to write them. And you may be using Microsoft still functions so slight difference in terms of design, but it's, you know, we want to ensure that you can bring your favorite frameworks and wipers with you as well. When you're accessing databases or message brokers. We want to ensure you can still use those technologies so we're trying to bring the whole ecosystem with us, with Quarkus, so those things can run well, in a you know, container or service environment as well. And that's super important because the real benefit here is any organizations face the choice of I want to develop cloud native, I want to develop functions, but I've got this huge investment in Java in terms of skills and you know, tools and tool trains and I don't want to go learn a new language, just because I need to you know, take advantage of things new environments so we're essentially giving developers their cake and allowing them to eat it. We are trying to provide the best of both worlds. Stick with the language you already know and you know, have lots of experience with, and still be able to get the benefits of running in our containerized environment. >> Okay. what are some of the challenges here, so you know from an infrastructure standpoint. My background is, you know, virtualization broke a lot of pieces and containerization does the same thing. As you mentioned, things you know, spin up really fast and they don't stay on nearly as long. You know, god, you mentioned functions as a service, often we're measuring things in milliseconds, so everything genomes, understand what's up how do I manage it, how do I monitor it all of those pieces so, you know, I understand you're saying we take the skill set and what we know. But, you know, there's got to be some on ramp here and some considerations >> Yes, so, yeah, absolutely so, Red has taken on the ramp and ensuring that this ecosystem moves with us. We do a lot of hard work within Quarkus, so developers don't have to. We do some very, very clever stuff that very few organizations, would be able to do because they don't have the depth of knowledge of the Java virtual machine that we do. We're able to take a lot of things that you'd normally start off once only, like loading classes and you know, building kind of memory data around, all the kind of reading configurations all of the things applications do once and only once. Why do it another time? Why not build that into the component time, you're going to do it once but take it out of your runtime environment completely, so there are many ways where we're having to kind of rethink the way you know, applications run. We have to do a reset on what job was built for this environment of long running applications where, if the application took 10 minutes to load up all the stage area and classes and config, it didn't really matter, because it's not going to run for 36 months. You got to do a resale on those design decisions and think very very differently and given with our deep experience with containers and you know, working on things like native, serverless and on deep, deep roots in Java, we were able to do that and really think differently. So, Quarkus takes a lot of that kind of work away from developers they don't have to think too much about it. And by and large, what they can do is focus on their applications and their micro services and read all of that wiring and optimization for them. And hopefully deliver some you know, real significant improvements both in development productivity, but also the kind of runtime resource utilization as well to really lower costs. >> Okay, and Rich, what's is great that's been really the nirvana when you talk about developers is they don't want to have to think about some of that underlying you know, gobbledygook. That was why you know, the term serverless is so polarizing is because from a developer standpoint I don't think about this but everybody screams, but there are servers and there is networking and there's you know, things underneath that I need to think about. So, what is the underlying assumption here. We talked about you know, containers, Kubernetes, functions as a service, what integration is done there? Does this live across? Is it kind of like, you know, does it sit just just on RHEL and therefore everywhere the RHEL lives it's there? Or, help me understand kind of what that underlying you know, substrate is. >> Yeah, right now our focus is RHEL x86, 'cause that's kind of the dominant platform in a cloud. It is just Java, some have that natural kind of portability and you know, as other architectures become important, we can certainly look at those as well. The reason why the underlying machine architecture is important, is because one of the options you have with Quarkus is actually the ability to compile everything down to a binary executable, right? That may give you some additional footprint reduction and performance enhancements. And also if we compile down to native, we do need to think about the underlying operating system and the architecture. But by and large, as a developer you really don't have to care. Just like to you don't have to care with Java today. You also have the option with Quarkus, to run on conventional JVM, open JDK is our preference and if you can run on open JDK, then you can pretty much run anywhere. Under you know, different reasons for compiling down a native, this is running on a traditional JDK, different optimizations, different trade-offs that you'd like to make. >> All right, so Rich, an open source project here, can you tell us a little bit about you know, who's contributed to this, you know, what general adoption is this, and, you know, where are we with the solution today. Is it today ready for production environments? >> Yeah, it's getting close to production ready, yeah, we'll be making this Germany available and during Summit and many of the components we use are tried and tested, again we're not reinventing everything from the ground up. We leverage things like REHL VM, we leverage open JDK, we leverage all our frameworks and library, the developer that are familiar with, we just have to optimize them for Quarkus, so, yeah, much of this is not brand new technology. The existing technology that has that kind of maturity and tolling support. So yeah, we're confident it's production ready. One of the early stages of the development of Quarkus, was to use some of Red Hats own products as goody picks. Actually, you know, optimize those products for containerized environments by rebuilding them on top of Quarkus and that gave us obviously a lot of insight into the general readiness, yeah, the whole kind of eating around and dog food principle. In terms of the organizations in investing Quarkus, you know, we have this kind of have old addedge, we often use at Red Hat, which is you know, if you want to, if you want to move quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, then go with others. We're at a stage, where we've been developing Quarkus very, very rapidly and that's mostly been a Red Hat effort. We've certainly got some help from the mothership IBM and I expect that to be an increase overtime and we're now in a point where we have a Germany available product coming up and we're ready to really kind of expand the ecosystem. So, we're looking for you, whether you're a framework provider, you've written a framework for Java and you want to have that Quarkus provider, ensure that runs really well and partly the kind of growing ecosystem around Quarkus, we're looking for that, we're for, you know, cloud providers to you know, take this technology and see how it runs in other environments and give us feedback. So, yeah, definitely looking to expand that ecosystem of contributors, so we can really turn this into kind of the facto technology for the cloud. >> So, Richard, stop back for us for a second, you've got a long history with Java. You know, why in 2020 is you know, Java still, I believe it's like number two on the language list there. Why is it so important today and why is moving forward to all of these cloud solutions so important for that ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think it comes down to you know, organizations are faced with a tough choice. That they stick with the language that they know and love, which is Java, the language, the relevant applications for the last decade and not be able to take the best advantage of cloud and native or serverless environment. Whereas if they go and learn a new language, Datalog or No.js and you know, kind of hunt around and trying to see if that has the same kind of ecosystem and support. So, we want give organizations a better choice, which is you can stick with a language you already know and love and you have skills and the resources, yeah, you can still take advantage of these new environments and that's you know, I'm mean, fundaments the problem we're trying to solve for your customers. That twice open source projects are, they live or die, depending on, they really do scratch an itch, you know, fulfill a need with real developments. I'm going to think we've certainly from the adoption and interest we've seen with Quarkus, we really do think we've found a very real problem to solve. >> Yeah, Rich, before we wrap up, I just want to give you the opportunity, you know, how is your teams doing, I think you know, Red Hat's making a real concerted effort to make you know, an appropriate tone for the event this week. Trying to make sure it's not you know, some of the usual glam that we normally expect to see, full on the community all together, but, you know, the community is so important and you know, the network of people that, you know, built not only you know, technologies but also careers and you know, relationships, so, give us a insight as to how your teams doing, everybody in these challenging times. >> I think this is another good example of where open source really does show it's resilience. Open source projects are simply very, very distributed. No open source projects rely on an office being open, so your word distributed team all used to work using distributed tools across the world, different time zones. It's kind of natural for us, so we're kind of plugging on, you know, just as we have them in the task, you have a few more dogs in the background and crying babies and you know, we're all humans, we all tolerate that. We have great support from our leaderships, that's Red Hat and IMB. They're very clear that they've got people and families before revenue and that's good to know. Everybody's you know continuing as they can to you know, ensure that we have you know, great technology out there 'cause like I said there's real demand here that needs to filled and we're going to continue doing that. So, yeah, everybody's kind of holding up pretty well, so, let's just see how long this thing goes but again, I do think it is a valuable kind of lesson on the resilience of distributed teams and open source in particular. So, yeah. >> All right, well thank you for that Rich. Just to bring it on home, as you said, the general availability of Quarkus you know, is in front of us here, really expecting the ecosystem in costumers move. Give us a little bit of what we should be looking at going forward, what are some of the kind of maturity steps and what should we expect to see, through the remainder of 2020. >> Yeah, it's going to be a pretty exciting year, I mean, given the changes we were all going through we are going to try and come meet developers, where they are, which is you know, on their laptops and in front of their computers, so, we're going to do, we're playing through a bunch of you know, kind of very quick webinars, you know, quick bye what it takes, you know, interesting features, we're going to do some virtual hackathons as well, so you can actually get people with time and talk with some experts. We have platform for doing that. So, we're pretty excited, we, you know, again with the incident, we can reach a lot of developers very easily. Actually far more than we could at a live even like Summit, so, we're going to make the best of it and try to get at to as many developers as we can with Quarkus and you know, hopefully they'll repay us by investing a little bit of time into it and giving us some feedback and you know, trying some applications and you know, see how it goes. >> All right and you know, final, final question for your Rich, you know, Quarkus, I have to imagine that the Quark, the subatomic particle, you know, came into the naming there. Is there some connection with that? I guess why the name to the project? >> Yeah, I mean that's pretty much it, you know, the Quarkus you know, kind of. (mumbles) Arguably the smallest fundamental particle. >> And can we find something smaller? >> Well, there potentially is something smaller but that's kind of in the realm of quantum mechanics and physics, which I'm not an expert on, so, but yeah, it's meant to mean small and the us bit, the US bit. I'd like to think there was a really good big meaning around that. The meaning is that we understand, that trying to do any kind of brand leadership or trademark protection on a well know server like Quark, is it possible? So, we had to add something to Quark and Quarkus kind of sounded cool. >> All right, Rich Sharples, pleasure to catch up with you, congrats on the progress for Quarkus, definitely looking forward to watching it's progression in the future. >> Thanks, great talking to you. >> All right, I'm Stu Minneman. Lot's more coverage here at Red Hat Summit 2020. Thank you as always for watching The Cube. (gentle music)

>> From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, I'm Stuart Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat summit 2020, 7th year we've been covering the event of course, one of the differentiators this year is it is a virtual event. We're bringing a Red Hat executives, customers and partners from where they are around their globe to this digital event and really happy to bring back one of our cube alumni is also one of the keynote speakers. He's got a new role but lots of technology to share. Matt Hicks, the SVP of product and technologies with Red Hat. Matt, thank you so much for joining us. Normally we'd all get together. You and I are even geographically relatively close to each other, but of course today as we've said many times, we are together apart. So thanks so much for joining us. >> Hey, thanks for having me. >> All right, so compared to some say it, the company that owns Red Hat, IBM, you're a relatively short timer with Red Hat you only been there for 14 years, Matt, but we, we've talked to many times OpenShift. One of the big things we talk about with you over the last few years, you're one of the founding members of that team, but before we get into it, you've got a new role, the product pieces we said you're kind of stepping up, filling in for the shoes that Paul has, As Paul now says steps up to the CEO role. So tell us a little bit about what that means for you and your your organization. >> Yeah, sure, so you're right. I used to run an engineering for Red Hat and now I have the scope of engineering and the business and our support organization so previous role and it's a great opportunity. I'm excited about emission I've been at Red Hat 14 years. I was actually at IBM prior. So the combination asking pretty significant there. But it's, it's just the neat opportunity. I love being able to, to focus on the entire portfolio for example how it's impacting customers. Especially right now this is tricky time right now for a lot of customers I think Red Hat we're doing our best to make sure we have that value them just to sort of get through the crisis bench form. >> Yeah, absolutely Matt. We usually, when we're looking at a keynote, it's celebrating some new announcement, talking about the culmination of these things and there's a real effort of course, to set a nice balanced tone here. Of course you've got lots of critical companies that rely on Red Hat technologies, on your partner solutions to make sure things work. So, bring us in a little inside basically the organization and how you're helping your customers. I know in these challenging times. >> Yeah, I know this year didn't make a big push and PR who fluff hall all the work. Really proud of that work, but it just, it wasn't the right time to have that focus on product releases. That said, if you look at our customer base there pretty split right now. We have a large part of our customer base they are folks centers weathering the storm right now, and a lot of that work is it's cost savings, it's efficiency it's actually I'm doubling down on their data centers where they've got to go back to things that they own and down that side we'vethrown a whole host of efforts setback from extending our support services. We've gone through extending our product life cycle so customers don't get and then having to do an upgrade right now. We're working with Ansible and with RHEL just in and how we can help customers save and get through it sort of in the way that they want. On the other side though take some industries, whether they're developing a vaccine or shipping, they say there exploding like they need to scale and push and we're making sure that we didn't hold back any technology. 'Cause the toughest thing would be to say, "Well, okay, let's take in OpenShift." We have new serverless capabilities or pipelines. We didn't want it take any of those pieces away from the customer that might be needing to scale 500% right now, but it, it is it's a challenging time. We sort of have helping customers is either end of a really, really wide spectrum. And the good news though we have I think we have good solutions on both album through, but it is a unique experience for me. And as long as I've been in then sure I haven't quite seen as much of AI, I divide. >> Yeah, it's really Matt, I think back to I was working in the tech vendor community back when 9/11 happened and some of the rallying of the community but this has a personal impact for everyone, it's 9/11, it was kind of everybody went home for a day and then rally the troops. You didn't make a big deal of it, but you made sure you helped those customers. Today, this has such a wide impact and yeah, as you said but very unique time that we're living in here. One of the messages you talked about in your keynote is was really emphasizing message we've heard for Red Hat for a number of years. Talking about how your solution really everywhere. Even more than ever. Some of the stories you hear about where technology is accelerating, of course things like work from home. But also customers that are doing digital transformations or I've been looking at cloud adoption, sometimes those things, they need to move through some of the last few steps even faster because they can't touch the gear or they can't access stuff. Or I need to got that automation going even faster so that we can leverage it. So help us walk through a little bit. Yow know where are your technology pieces are OpenShift some of the other technologies that are so critically important for customers today. >> Yeah, you touched on a lot of areas and I would say we probably saw this start and certainly been amplified and just worldwide importance with Telecom. Telecom providers as they've pushed towards things like 5G it's it's not the traditional like you have one data center type thing play and that's what you think troll and whether you call this edge or anything else that relate. You have these multiple tiers of infrastructure and they run it massive scale. And so they wanted one technology platform that could run it was close to the user as possible. And I run into a bunch of different form factors and footprints and also and that's where we really started working with the Telecom providers on OpenShift and taking some of the experience. We certainly work a lot with them with OpenStack for networks, but as things got closer to the edge that pushed to OpenShift was pretty prevalent. We are now seeing you mentioned it where I think customers, a lot of customers are being forced into the digital transformation journey right now I really like, well, everyone's home. How do you serve your customers with this? And they're really that last mile of changes is coming very quick to them. And I think we're seeing a lot of similarities with that technology based, right. The same challenges that the telecom providers had can be applied to other industries, whether it's manufacturing, others in this generally we call it like it's that edge focused area you don't have and infrastructure that runs in one place, you're having to aggregate a lot of it we call this our hybrid cloud work and OpenShift is really Red Hats hybrid cloud. >> Yeah, so often we talk about some of the hype that goes around certain words. I think about cloud-native we've been talking about cloud for so many years out of close partners with all the various solutions out there. When things need to get done, how does it help businesses? How does it help IT reacts to the business and how do we make sure we stay in business? So how was that conversation of cloud-native changed and where's Red Hat sitting in that discussion? >> Yeah, I think not the best circumstance, but I think one of the things that's been really prevalent is when you see this pull back in some way basis to data centers, that conversation about did I build my apps to a standard that I've got it costs, can I move them to a lower cost center structure for me? Like right now, in a week for two weeks. Yeah, that's becoming pretty critical where, we've believed in that model for a long time of whether it's cloud native services building them to a platform that gives you that flexibility that has become a pain point for customers right now. And one of the nice things we've seen this in some government services where if they're built on OpenShift even on premise, they're on the other side of that, where they're having to scale these services massively, they're able to take the same app, same platform, go out to public cloud providers actually help fulfill that scale. Customers, I think that built to that pattern. If they're contracting for a bit or doubling down on their data center, they have the same thing. They can pull back from the public cloud if they need to, but that, that app affordability has gone from being real like secondary, tertiary concern to being a critical aspect of cost savings or just a lot of enterprises right now and in a shockingly short period of time. >> It's interesting when you talk about engineering groups and how they're building product. Most of the development teams I talked to, we're distributed before this event happened. And yes, there's some adjustments that need to happen. I think Red Hat has some almost unique capabilities compared to some others out there. Because, not only do you have your development teams, but of course everything that Red Hat is doing is open source. So I'd love to hear your viewpoint as to, as you think about your product roadmap and what's going to happen in 2020, how do the communities and there's been a number of course key acquisitions that Red Hat has done over the years. Talk a little bit about that dynamic and how much this affects what's happening and how this helps Red Hat both put together the products and the portfolio that it offers. >> Yeah, I think you're right, We're, we are incredibly lucky just business model wise and even as a starting where on the engineering team over half of our engineering team is remote to begin with. And then on top of that, we work with open source communities where we're still just the minority presence in most of those. And so you're working with team members that you've never met. So you could say, the bulk of the work that we did was really distributed. So it wasn't just a huge system shock. Everybody stay productive, stay from home. The second part, that was great our strategy overall, it really doesn't change for us because we're, we're seeing a lot of pressure applied to it where customers maybe a three year plan to get there is becoming their six months plan. But in terms of running infrastructure in these combinations being able to run it in your data center, being able to scale off public clouds and do that consistently, that hasn't changed for us. We are refining areas of making sure that we contributed really double down on infrastructure, mission critical infrastructure like telecom's right now because they're certainly going through the scale there going to push for things like 5G we want to make sure we're doing everything we can for that. Well, we were already working pretty closely with them, so not a huge strategy shift for us. It's okay, how can we just really focus these on the value that customers need right now. We're excited about if you look in the efficiency areas in these combinations, what we're doing with Ansible it's pretty critical to users. Like if you take a real user that's running a data centers worth a year and they need to remotely be able to manage it, control it, optimize it to see you can't get people there. great solutions around around and so we're, we're really pushing down that path. Then if you look at other areas, like with OpenShift, some of the management work group I've been doing, or the scaling areas, if you go through serverless models or pipelines, if you're in the shipping industry or you're in pharmaceuticals working on vaccines, they have massive scaling needs right now. And so they're pushing very hard on and that's what a new technology has reached. All right, there is one technology area that I'd love to get your view. Well, you talked a little bit about in the keynote, definitely plenty of breakouts and we actually have you've interviews digging into of course, current eddies, the latest is going on with OpenShift and a big piece is the virtualization with OpenShift virtualization. As I mentioned at the beginning, you're one of the founding members of the OpenShift team. So as you look at, bare metal virtualization painters were at VMs public cloud on premises. Give us your viewpoint as to where we are in 2020 and how some of that journey has changed over time and how Red Hat might have a slightly different view of how things should be built and where the future should go compared to others in the industry. >> Yeah, really excited about this area because if you look at Red Hat sort of view on this is that we can run Kubernetes sort of as the thing that directly runs on Linux and Bare-metal and for us that's OpenShifting RHEL and it's, it's very powerful because if you look at what virtualization came from, it was machines got really, it's strong and so we needed to carve them up into smaller pieces, make it manageable, that's what Linux containers do is they take a machine they carve them up into these units and let you use all of the power on the physical hardware and we know this world from RHEL for us, that's what Linux does it lights up hardware. So I think the norm in the industry for the last yours years was people would still carve up machines with virtualization, then they would run containers on top and virtualization was sort of your main substrate and there were some challenges with that. The containers it's harder for them to move across those boundaries like BMS isolated for a reason we actually think, and it was an upstream project called KubeVert. Again, we saw this in the telcos pretty early where they were putting OpenShift on bare metal on gear itself, and they were driving to run virtualization inside. And then really you have the flexibility of containers carving up the hardware and we need to bring VMs in. We can run VMs inside of it containers and that it's the opposite of how most people think about it. But it, it gives you the best of both worlds. 'Cause we look at Kubernetes it is sort of that next generation infrastructure layer and you can fit VMs very nicely into that. That's what we're doing with container-native virtualization it gives you a good cost benefits on that. And also if you're going from a virtualized world to a container world you're optimizing towards that destination with OpenShift it's just, it is neat technology 'cause I think most customers they still have a ton of VMs out there. So even if they're bought off on an OpenShift path how do they bring VMs into that story? And so that as of now that's something we're enabling them to be able to do. Cool technology, I mean I'm excited about that. And again, it has a great telco focus for us right now, but I think this is one where it'll have broad reach cross enterprise users to just that are already down this journey and need to accelerate it for cost savings. That's great solution there. >> Yeah, definitely from what I've learned, it's pretty empowering to really help that application development team understand really those cloud native architectures if you will. One of the challenges of VMs was used to just kind of stick the application in there. I think about it anymore and that does not meet where really companies are going. It's all right, Matt, I got to ask you the last question. Since you own product and technologies, talk about some of the tough areas. Where is Red Hat really working with the community to help really improve things for the ecosystem and for customers as you look out through the rest of the 2020? >> Yeah, I think looking out for the rest of 2020 it's sort of, it's picking focus areas because that the most challenging thing the nice part especially at Red Hat too, there is a ton of goodwill. What can we jump in help can we do and when we looked at it, a lot of our customers, they're doing awesome thanks. And they're sort of in the middle of the crisis. So a big part of our focus then making sure we help them. One of my friends favorite stories, it's close to really like Red Hats ethos is a Medtronic, they're a ventilator. They manufacture ventilators, they open source there are ventilator designs so that companies like Ford or Telsa could actually they're retooling their factories to build them Medtronics open sources so they can actually get the designs to build. When we see those things it's just awesome. Like those are great like that is what for us opens spaces is build on and we are really doubling down to make sure that whether it is a support case or bug or problem where we have to jump in and give them engineering expertise to help them scale. That has been our focus probably for most of 2020. In doing that well, I think our challenge our hard part is just bringing focus from all of them, little things we can do, to what are the things that are going to have the most impact right now, which is, it's tough but we have a lot of them. Like on the technology side, we have the virtualization areas. Some of the, the workaround cork is like, how do we bring Java workloads into this Kubernetes world? Like really good things there, but I'm sure what we know right now we'll unfortunately it probably change again and another couple of months. We just have to he really flexible, keep prioritizing focus on it. >> Right, well Matt Hicks taking a new leadership role is always challenging especially in these times. So I want to wish you the best of luck and of course thank you to the team. We always really appreciate the partnership with Red Hat to be able to share this content with the communities. Always good to talk to you man. >> Sounds good, it's great talking to you too. And maybe next year we'll be back to the in person. >> Absolutely. All right, watch more coverage for Red Hat summit 2020 I'm Stuart Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Jeff: Hello everybody, and thank you for joining us today for the virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's break-out session has been titled, "Migrating Your Vertica Cluster to the Cloud." I'm Jeff Healey, and I'm in Vertica marketing. I'll be your host for this break-out session. Joining me here are Sumeet Keswani and Chris Daly, Vertica product technology engineers and key members of our customer success team. Before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions and comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait, just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click Submit. As always, there will be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions that we don't address, we'll do our best to answer them offline. And alternatively, you can visit Vertica forums at forum.vertica.com to post your questions there after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going. Also as a reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to view on demand this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. Now let's get started. Over to you, Sumeet. >> Sumeet: Thank you, Jeff. Hello everyone, my name is Sumeet Keswani, and I will be talking about planning to deploy or migrate your Vertica cluster to the Cloud. So you may be moving an on-prem cluster or setting up a new cluster in the Cloud. And there are several design and operational considerations that will come into play. You know, some of these are cost, which industry you are in, or which expertise you have, in which Cloud platform. And there may be a personal preference too. After that, you know, there will be some operational considerations like VM and cluster sizing, what Vertica mode you want to deploy, Eon or Enterprise. It depends on your use keys. What are the DevOps skills available, you know, what elasticity, separation you need, you know, what is your backup and DR strategy, what do you want in terms of high availability. And you will have to think about, you know, how much data you have and where it's going to live. And in order to understand the cost, or the cost and the benefit of deployment and you will have to understand the access patterns, and how you are moving data from and to the Cloud. So things to consider before you move a deployment, a Vertica deployment to the Cloud, right, is one thing to keep in mind is, virtual CPUs, or CPUs in the Cloud, are not the same as the usual CPUs that you've been familiar with in your data center. A vCPU is half of a CPU because of hyperthreading. There is definitely the noisy neighbor effect. There is, depending on what other things are hosted in the Cloud environment, you may see performance, you may occasionally see performance issues. There are I/O limitations on the instance that you provision, so that what that really means is you can't always scale up. You might have to scale up, basically, you have to add more instances rather than getting bigger or the right size instances. Finally, there is an important distinction here. Virtualization is not free. There can be significant overhead to virtualization. It could be as much as 30%, so when you size and scale your clusters, you must keep that in mind. Now the other important aspect is, you know, where you put Vertica cluster is important. The choice of the region, how far it is from your various office locations. Where will the data live with respect to the cluster. And remember, popular locations can fill up. So if you want to scale out, additional capacity may or may not be available. So these are things you have to keep in mind when picking or choosing your Cloud platform and your deployment. So at this point, I want to make a plug for Eon mode. Eon mode is the latest mode, is a Cloud mode from Vertica. It has been designed with Cloud economics in mind. It uses shared storage, which is durable, available, and very cheap, like S3 storage or Google Cloud storage. It has been designed for quick scaling, like scale out, and highly elastic deployments. It has also been designed for high workload isolation, where each application or user group can be isolated from the other ones, so that they'll be paid and monitored separately, without affecting each other. But there are some disadvantages, or perhaps, you know, there's a cost for using Eon mode. Storage in S3 is neither cheap nor efficient. So there is a high latency of I/O when accessing data from S3. There is API and data access cost. There is API and data access cost associated with accessing your data in S3. Vertica in Eon mode has a pay as you go model, which you know, works for some people and does not work for others. And so therefore it is important to keep that in mind. And performance can be a little bit variable here, because it depends on cache, it depends on the local depot, which is a cache, and it is not as predictable as EE mode, so that's another trade-off. So let's spend about a minute and see how a Vertica cluster in Eon mode looks like. A Vertica cluster in Eon mode has S3 as the durability layer where all the data sits. There are subclusters, which are essentially just aggregation groups, which is separated compute, which will service different workloads. So for in this example, you may have two subclusters, one servicing ETL workload and the other one servicing (mic interference obscures speaking). These clusters are isolated, and they do not affect each other's performance. This allows you to scale them independently and isolate workloads. So this is the new Vertica Eon mode which has been specifically designed by us for use in the Cloud. But beyond this, you can use EE mode or Eon mode in the Cloud, it really depends on what your use case is. But both of these are possible, and we highly recommend Eon mode wherever possible. Okay, let's talk a little bit about what we mean by Vertica support in the Cloud. Now as you know, a Cloud is a shared data center, right. Performance in the Cloud can vary. It can vary between regions, availability zones, time of the day, choice of instance type, what concurrency you use, and of course the noisy neighbor effect. You know, we in Vertica, we performance, load, and stress test our product before every release. We have a bunch of use cases, we go through all of them, make sure that we haven't, you know, regressed any performance, and make sure that it works up to standards and gives you the high performance that you've come to expect. However, your solution or your workload is unique to you, and it is still your responsibility to make sure that it is tuned appropriately. To do this, one of the easiest things you can do is you know, pick a tested operating system, allocate the virtual machine, you know, with enough resources. It's something that we recommend, because we have tested it thoroughly. It goes a long way in giving you predictability. So after this I would like to now go into the various platforms, Cloud platforms, that Vertica has worked on. And I'll start with AWS, and my colleague Chris will speak about Azure and GCP. And our thoughts forward. So without further ado, let's start with the Amazon Web Services platform. So this is Vertica running on the Amazon Web Services platform. So as you probably are all aware, Amazon Web Services is the market leader in this space, and indeed really our biggest provider by far, and have been here for a very long time. And Vertica has a deep integration in the Amazon Web Services space. We provide a marketplace offering which has both pay as you go or a bring your own license model. We have many, you know, knowledge base articles, best practices, scripts, and resources that help you configure and use a Vertica database in the Cloud. We have several customers in the Cloud for many, many years now, and we have managed and console-based point and click deployments, you know, for ease of use in the Cloud. So Vertica has a deep integration in the Amazon space, and has been there for quite a bit now. So we communicate a lot of experience here. So let's talk about sizing on AWS. And sizing on any platform comes down to you know, these four or five different things. It comes down to picking the right instance type, picking the right disk volume and type, tuning and optimizing your networking, and finally, you know, some operational concerns like security, maintainability, and backup. So let's go into each one of these on the AWS ecosystem. So the choice of instance type is one of the important choices that you will make. In Eon mode, you know, you don't really need persistent disk. You can, you should probably choose ephemeral disk because it gives you extra speed, and speed with the instance type. We highly recommend the i3.4x instance types, which are very economical, have a big, 4 terabyte depot or cache per node. The i3.metal is similar to the i3.4, but has got significantly better performance, for those subclusters that need this extra oomph. The i3.2 is good for scale out of small ad hoc clusters. You know, they have a smaller cache and lower performance but it's cheap enough to use very indiscriminately. If you were in EE mode, well we don't use S3 as the layer of durability. Your local volumes is where we persist the data. Hence you do need an EBS volume in EE mode. In order to make sure that, you know, that the instance or the deployment is manageable, you might have to use some sort of a software RAID array over the EBS volumes. The most common instance type you see in EE mode is the r4.4x, the c4, or the m4 instance types. And then of course for temp space and depot we always recommend instance volumes. They're just much faster. Okay. So let's go, let's talk about optimizing your network or tuning your network. So the best, the best thing you can do about tuning your network, especially in Eon mode but in other modes too, is to get a VPC S3 endpoint. This is essentially a route table that makes sure that all traffic between your cluster and S3 goes over an internal fabric. This makes it much faster, you don't pay for egress cost, especially if you're doing external tables or your communal storage, but you do need to create it. Many times people will forget doing it. So you really do have to create it. And best of all, it's free. It doesn't cost you anything extra. You just have to create it during cluster creation time, and there's a significant performance difference for using it. The next thing about tuning your network is, you know, sizing it correctly. Pick the closest geographical region to where you'll consume the data. Pick the right availability zone. We highly recommend using cluster placement groups. In fact, they are required for the stability of the cluster. A cluster placement group is essentially, it operates this notion of rack. Nodes in a cluster placement group, are, you know, physically closer to each other than they would otherwise be. And this allows, you know, a 10 Gbps, bidirectional, TCP/IP flow between the nodes. And this makes sure that, you know, you get a high amount of Gbps per second. As you probably are all aware, the Cloud does not support broadcast or UDP broadcast. Hence you must use point-to-point UDP for spread in the Cloud, or in AWS. Beyond that, you know, point-to-point UDP does not scale very well beyond 20 nodes. So you know, as your cluster sizes increase, you must switch over to large cluster mode. And finally, use instances with enhanced networking or SR-IOV support. Again, it's free, it comes with the choice of the instance type and the operating system. We highly recommend it, it makes a big difference in terms of how your workload will perform. So let's talk a little bit about security, configuration, and orchestration. As I said, we provide CloudFormation scripts to make the ease of deployment. You can use the MC point and click. With regard to security, you know, Vertica does support instance profiles out of the box in Amazon. We recommend you use it. This is highly desirable so that you're not passing access keys and secret keys around. If you use our marketplace image, we have picked the latest operating systems, we have patched them, Amazon actually validates everything on marketplace and scans them for security vulnerabilities. So you get that for free. We do some basic configuration, like we disable root ssh access, we disallow any password access, we turn on encryption. And we run a basic set of security checks to make sure that the image is secure. Of course, it could be made more secure. But we try to balance out security, performance, and convenience. And finally, let's talk about backups. Especially in Eon mode I get the question, "Do we really need to back up our system, "since the data is in S3?" And the answer is yes, you do. Because you know, S3's not going to protect you against an accidental drop table. You know, S3 has a finite amount of reliability, durability, and availability. And you may want to be able to restore data differently. Also, backups are important if you're doing DR, or if you have additional cluster in a different region. The other cluster can be considered a backup. And finally, you know, why not create a backup or a disaster recovery cluster, you know, storage is cheap in the Cloud. So you know, we highly recommend you use it. So with this, I would like to hand it over to my colleague Christopher Daly, who will talk about the other two platforms that we support, that is Google and Azure. Over to you, Chris, thank you. >> Chris: Thanks, Sumeet, and hi everyone. So while there's no argument that we here at Vertica have a long history of running within the Amazon Web Services space, there are other alternative Cloud service providers where we do have a presence, such as Google Cloud Platform, or GCP. For those of you who are unfamiliar with GCP, it's considered the third-largest Cloud service provider in the marketspace, and it's priced very competitively to its peers. Has a lot of similarities to AWS in the products and services that it offers, but it tends to be the go-to place for newer businesses or startups. We officially started supporting GCP a little over a year ago with our first entry into their GCP marketplace. So a solution that deployed a fully-functional and ready-to-use Enterprise mode cluster. We followed up on that with the release and the support of Google storage buckets, and now I'm extremely pleased to announce that with the launch of Vertica 10, we're officially supporting Eon mode architecture in GCP as well. But that's not all, as we're adding additional offerings into the GCP marketplace. With the launch of version 10 we'll be introducing a second listing in the marketplace that allows for the deployment of an Eon mode cluster. It's all being driven by our own management consult. This will allow customers to quickly spin up Eon-based clusters within the GCP space. And if that wasn't enough, I'm also pleased to tell you that very soon after the launch we're going to be offering Vertica by the hour in GCP as well. And while we've done a lot to automate the solutions coming out of the marketplace, we recognize the simple fact that for a lot of you, building your cluster manually is really the only option. So with that in mind, let's talk about the things you need to understand in GCP to get that done. So wag me if you think this slide looks familiar. Well nope, it's not an erroneous duplicate slide from Sumeet's AWS section, it's merely an acknowledgement of all the things you need to consider for running Vertica in the Cloud. In Vertica, the choice of the operational mode will dictate some of the choices you'll need to make in the infrastructure, particularly around storage. Just like on-prem solutions, you'll need to understand the disk and networking capacities to get the most out of your cluster. And one of the most attractive things in GCP is the pricing, as it tends to run a little less than the others. But it does translate into less choices and options within the environment. If nothing else, I want you to take one thing away from this slide, and Sumeet said this earlier. VMs running, about AWS, Sumeet said this about AWS earlier. VMs running in the GCP space run on top of hardware that has hyperthreading enabled. And that a vCPU doesn't equate to a core, but rather a processing thread. This becomes particularly important if you're moving from an on-prem environment into the Cloud. Because a physical Vertica node with 32 cores is not the same thing as a VM with 32 vCPUs. In fact, with 32 vCPUs, you're only getting about 16 cores worth of performance. GCP does offer a handful of VM types, which they categorize by letter, but for us, most of these don't make great choices for Vertica nodes. The M series, however, does offer a good core to memory ratio, especially when you're looking at the high-mem variants. Also keep in mind, performance in I/O, such as network and disk, are partially dependent on the VM size, so customers in GCP space should be focusing on 16 vCPU VMs and above for their Vertica nodes. Disk options in GCP can be broken down into two basic types, persistent disks and local disks, which are ephemeral. Persistent disks come in two forms, standard or SSD. For Vertica in Eon mode, we recommend that customers use persistent SSD disks for the catalog, and either local SSD disks or persistent SSD disks for the depot and the temp space. Couple of things to think about here, though. Persistent disks are provisioned as a single device with a settable size. Local disks are provisioned as multiple disk devices with a fixed size, requiring you to use some kind of software RAIDing to create a single storage device. So while local SSD disks provide much more throughput, you're using CPU resources to maintain that RAID set. So you're giving, it's a little bit of a trade-off. Persistent disks offer redundancy, either within the zone that they exist or within the region, and if you're selecting regional redundancy, the disks are replicated across multiple zones in the region. This does have an effect in the performance to VM, so we don't recommend this. What we do recommend is the zonal redundancy when you're using persistent disks, as it gives you that redundancy level without actually affecting the performance. Remember also, in the Cloud space, all I/O is network I/O, as disks are basically block storage devices. This means that disk actions can and will slow down network traffic. And finally, the storage bucket access in GCP is based on GCP interoperability mode, which means that it's basically compliant with the AWS S3 API. In interoperability mode, access to the bucket is granted by a key pair that GCP refers to as HMAC keys. HMAC keys can be generated for individual users or for service accounts. We will recommend that when you're creating HMAC keys, choose a service account to ensure that the keys are not tied to a single employee. When thinking about storage for Enterprise mode, things change a little bit. We still recommend persistent SSD disks over standard ones. However, the use of local SSD disks for anything other than temp space is highly discouraged. I said it before, local SSD disks are ephemeral, meaning that the data's lost if the machine is turned off or goes down. So not really a place you want to store your data. In GCP, multiple persistent disks placed into a software RAID set does not create more throughput like you can find in other Clouds. The I/O saturation usually hits the VM limit long before it hits the disk limit. In fact, performance of a persistent disk is determined not just by the size of the disk but also by the size of the VM. So a good rule of thumb in GCP is to maximize your I/O throughput for persistent disks, is that the size tends to max out at two terabytes for SSDs and 10 terabytes for standard disks. Network performance in GCP can be thought of in two distinct ways. There's node-to-node traffic, and then there's egress traffic. Node-to-node performance in GCP is really good within the zone, with typical traffic between nodes falling in the 10-15 gigabits per second range. This might vary a little from zone to zone and region to region, but usually it's only limited, they're only limited by the existing traffic where the VMs exist. So kind of a noisy neighbor effect. Egress traffic from a VM, however, is subject to throughput caps, and these are based on the size of the VM. So the speed is set for the number of vCPUs in the VM at two gigabits per second per vCPU, and tops out at 32 gigabits per second. So the larger the VM, the more vCPUs you get, the larger the cap. So some things to consider in the NAV ring space for your Vertica cluster, pick a region that's physically close to you, even if you're connecting to the GCP network from a corporate LAN as opposed to the internet. The further the packets have to travel, the longer it's going to take. Also, GCP, like most Clouds, doesn't support UDP broadcast traffic on their virtual NAV ring, so you do have to use the point-to-point flag for spread when you're creating your cluster. And since the network cap on VMs is set at 32 gigabits per second per VM, maximize your network egress throughput and don't use VMs that are smaller than 16 vCPUs for your Vertica nodes. And that gets us to the one question I get asked the most often. How do I get my data into and out of the Cloud? Well, GCP offers many different methods to support different speeds and different price points for data ingress and egress. There's the obvious one, right, across the internet either directly to the VMs or into the storage bucket. Or you can, you know, light up a VPN tunnel to encrypt all that traffic. But additionally, GCP offers direct network interconnect from your corporate network. These get provided either by Google or by a partner, and they vary in speed. They also offer things called direct or carrier peering, which is connecting the edges of the networks between your network and GCP, and you can use a CDN interconnect, which creates, I believe, an on-demand connection from the GCP network, your network to the GCP network provided by a large host of CDN service providers. So GCP offers a lot of ways to move your data around in and out of the GCP Cloud. It's really a matter of what price point works for you, and what technology your corporation is looking to use. So we've talked about AWS, we've talked about GCP, it really only leaves one more Cloud. So last, and by far not the least, there's the Microsoft Azure environment. Holding on strong to the number two place in the major Cloud providers, Azure offers a very robust Cloud offering that's attractive to customers that already consume services from Microsoft. But what you need to keep in mind is that the underlying foundation of their Cloud is based on the Microsoft Windows products. And this makes their Cloud offering a little bit different in the services and offerings that they have. The good news here, though, is that Microsoft has done a very good job of getting their virtualization drivers baked into the modern kernels of most Linux operating systems, making running Linux-based VMs in Azure fairly seamless. So here's the slide again, but now you're going to notice some slight differences. First off, in Azure we only support Enterprise mode. This is because the Azure storage product is very different from Google Cloud storage and S3 on AWS. So while we're working on getting this supported, and we're starting to focus on this, we're just not there yet. This means that since we're only supporting Enterprise mode in Azure, getting the local disk performance right is one of the keys to success of running Vertica here, with the other major key being making sure that you're getting the appropriate networking speeds. Overall, Azure's a really good platform for Vertica, and its performance and pricing are very much on par with AWS. But keep in mind that the newer versions of the Linux operating systems like RHEL and CentOS run much better here than the older versions. Okay, so first things first again, just like GCP, in Azure VMs are running on top of hardware that has hyperthreading enabled. And because of the way Hyper-V, Azure's virtualization engine works, you can actually see this, right? So if you look down into the CPU information of the VM, you'll actually see how it groups the vCPUs by core and by thread. Azure offers a lot of VM types, and is adding new ones all the time. But for us, we see three VM types that make the most sense for Vertica. For customers that are looking to run production workloads in Azure, the Es_v3 and the Ls_v2 series are the two main recommendations. While they differ slightly in the CPU to memory ratio and the I/O throughput, the Es_v3 series is probably the best recommendation for a generalized Vertica node, with the Ls_v2 series being recommended for workloads with higher I/O requirements. If you're just looking to deploy a sandbox environment, the Ds_v3 series is a very suitable choice that really can reduce your overall Cloud spend. VM storage in Azure is provided by a grouping of four different types of disks, all offering different levels of performance. Introduced at the end of last year, the Ultra Disk option is the highest-performing disk type for VMs in Azure. It was designed for database workloads where high throughput and low latency is very desirable. However, the Ultra Disk option is not available in all regions yet, although that's been changing slowly since their launch. The Premium SSD option, which has been around for a while and is widely available, can also offer really nice performance, especially higher capacities. And just like other Cloud providers, the I/O throughput you get on VMs is dictated not only by the size of the disk, but also by the size of the VM and its type. So a good rule of thumb here, VM types with an S will have a much better throughput rate than ones that don't, meaning, and the larger VMs will have, you know, higher I/O throughput than the smaller ones. You can expand the VM disk throughput by using multiple disks in Azure and using a software RAID. This overcomes limitations of single disk performance, but keep in mind, you're now using CPU cycles to maintain that raid, so it is a bit of a trade-off. The other nice thing in Azure is that all their managed disks are encrypted by default on the server side, so there's really nothing you need to do here to enable that. And of course I mentioned this earlier. There is no native access to Azure storage yet, but it is something we're working on. We have seen folks using third-party applications like MinIO to access Azure's storage as an S3 bucket. So it might be something you want to keep in mind and maybe even test out for yourself. Networking in Azure comes in two different flavors, standard and accelerated. In standard networking, the entire network stack is abstracted and virtualized. So this works really well, however, there are performance limitations. Standard networking tends to top out around four gigabits per second. Accelerated networking in Azure is based on single root I/O virtualization of the Mellanox adapter. This is basically the VM talking directly to the physical network card in the host hardware, and it can produce network speeds up to 20 gigabits per second, so much, much faster. Keep in mind, though, that not all VM types and operating systems actually support accelerated networking, and you know, just like disk throughput, network throughput is based on VM type and size. So what do you need to think about for networking in the Azure space? Again, stay close to home. Pick regions that are geographically close to your location. Yes, the backbones between the regions are very, very fast, but the more hops your packets have to make, the longer it takes. Azure offers two types of groupings of their VMs, availability sets and availability zones. Availability zones offer good redundancy across multiple zones, but this actually increases the node-to-node latency, so we recommend you avoid this. Availability sets, on the other hand, keep all your VMs grouped together within a single zone, but makes sure that no two VMs are running on the same host hardware, for redundancy. And just like the other Clouds, UDP broadcast is not supported. So you have to use the point-to-point flag when you're creating your database to ensure that the spread works properly. Spread time out, okay, this is a good one. So recently, Microsoft has started monthly rolling updates of their environment. What this looks like is VMs running on top of hardware that's receiving an update can be paused. And this becomes problematic when the pausing of the VM exceeds eight seconds, as the unpaused members of the cluster now think the paused VM is down. So consider adjusting the spread time out for your clusters in Azure to 30 seconds, and this will help avoid a little of that. If you're deploying a large cluster in Azure, more than 20 nodes, use large closer mode, as point-to-point for spread doesn't really scale well with a lot of Vertica nodes. And finally, you know, pick VM types and operating systems that support accelerated networking. The difference in the node-to-node speeds can be very dramatic. So how do we move data around in Azure, right? So Microsoft views data egress a little differently than other Clouds, as it classifies any data being transmitted by a VM as egress. However, it only bills for data egress that actually leaves the Azure environment. Egress speed limits in Azure are based entirely on the VM type and size, and then they're limited by your connection to them. While not offering as many pathways to access their Cloud as GCP, Azure does offer a direct network-to-network connection called ExpressRoute. Offered by a large group of third-party processors, partners, the ExpressRoute offers multiple tiers of performance that are based on a flat charge for inbound data and a metered charge for outbound data. And of course you can still access these via the internet, and securely through a VPN gateway. So on behalf of Jeff, Sumeet, and myself, I'd like to thank you for listening to our presentation today, and we're now ready for Q&A.