(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBES coverage of Red Hat summit 21 virtual. I'm John Furry, host of theCUBE. We've two great guests here, returning back CUBE alumni here to give us their perspective. Dave Linquist GM VP of engineering hybrid cloud management at Red Hat. Joe Fitzgerald, general manager VP of the management business unit Red Hat. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Congratulations, Red Hat summits, ongoing virtual. Great to see you. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks John. >> So I'd love to get the low down. A lot going on the productivity this year. Looking back from last year, a lot's been done and we've been in the pandemic now, now circling back a full year. A lot's happened- a lot of productivity, a lot of clear visibility on, on what's working, what's not, you guys got some great news. Let's just jump right into it. What's the big announcement? >> So one of the things that we announced here at Summit, John, is an expansion of our Red Hat insights brand. Basically we announced Red Hat insights for our RHEL platform back in 2015. Over the years, we've increased the amount of data and visibility into those systems. Here at summit, we've now announced Red Hat insights for both OpenShift, and for the Red Hat Ansible platform. So it's a pretty significant increase in the visibility that we have to the platforms. >> Oh, so can you repeat that one more time? So the expansion is through which platform style specifically? >> So Red Hat insights is a way that we connect up to different platforms that Red Hat provides. Historically it was for Red Hat enterprise Linux realm. We've now expanded it to the Red Hat, OpenShift family, the platforms as well as the Red Hat Ansible automation platform as well. >> So a nice broad expansion and people want that data. What's what was the motivation behind it? Was it customer demand? Was it more access to the data? Just, was it on the roadmap? What's the motivation- where where's this going? What's what's the purpose of all this? >> Well, I don't think customers say, Hey, please, you know take more data. I think it's customers say, can you keep me more secure? Can you keep my systems more optimized? Can you help me set more things to automatic? And that requires that you get data from these systems that you can auto tune on, auto- secure, auto optimize. Right? So it's really all those benefits that we get by connecting to these systems, bringing the telemetry data that config different kinds of information, and using that on customer behalf to optimize secure to the systems. >> You know, one of the biggest trends I think now for multiple years has been observability with cloud native, more services are being turned on and off enterprises are are getting a lot of pressure to be modern in their in their application development processes. Why is data more important than ever now? Can you guys take a minute to expand on that? Because this idea of telemetry across the platform is a very interesting announcement because you're turning that data into value, but can you guys expand where's that value coming, turning into? What is the value proposition? Where are people seeing the, the, the key key value points? >> Well, a couple of points, John, as you started out is in a hybrid cloud environment with cloud native applications and a lot of application modernization and the current progressiveness of DevOps and SRE teams, you're seeing a lot of dynamics and workloads and continuous delivery and deployments that are in public environments and private environments, distributed models. And so consequently, there's a lot of change in dynamics in the environment. So to sustain these high levels of service levels to sustain the security and the compliance, the ability to gather data from all these different points, to be able to get visibility into that data. It'd be able the ability to process that with various analytics and understand what when something's gone wrong or when an update is needed or when a configuration has drifted is increasingly critical in that in a hybrid cloud environment. >> So on the telemetry piece is that in open shift as well that that's supporting that as in there has that work. >> It's it's in OpenShift, as Joe mentioned, it's in braille it's in V2 Ansible and the OpenShift space we'd have an offering advanced cluster management that understands fleets of deployments, clusters, wherever they're deployed however they're running infrastructure public private hybrid environments. And it also collects in the context of the workloads that are deployed on those on those clusters to multi-question burn. >> I want to ask you guys a question. I get this all the time on theCUBE. Hey, you know, I need more data. I have multiple systems. I need to pull that data into one kind of control plane but I'm being pushed more and more to keep scaling operations. And this becomes a huge question mark for the enterprises because they, they have to turn up more, more scale. So this is becomes a data problem. Does this solve it here? How do you guys answer that? And what was the, what would be your response to that trend? >> Well, I think the, the thirst for data, right? There's a lot of things you can do with more data. There is a point where you can't ship all the data everywhere, right? If you think about logs and metrics and all the data it's too heavyweight to move everything everywhere. Right? So part of it is, you know, selecting the kind of data that you're going to get from these systems and the purpose you're going to use it for. And in the case of Red Hat, we take data from these different systems, regardless of whether they're deployed bring it in, and then we did predictive analytics against that data. And we use that telemetry that can take that health data right to do everything from optimize for performance or security costs, things like that. But we're not moving, you know, huge quantities of data from every system to Red Hat in order to, you know, pour through it. We are very selectively moving certain kinds of data for very specific purposes. >> Dave, what's your take on that because you know you got to engineer these systems. What's the optimized path for data? Do you keep it in the silo? Do you bring it together? What's the customer's view on, on how to deal with the data? >> Yeah. It is a complex problem. No doubt. You don't want it to be pulling all the data and trying to transmit all that data back into your analytics system. So you ended up curating some data, some of it you afford on often it's done under it will be done under control of policies. So that data that is sensitive, that should stay within the environment that it's in, will stay, but curated or alerts or information that's particularly relevant say to configurations, updates, any any of that type of information will go up into the analytics, into the insights. And then in turn, the alerts will come back down in a manner that are presented to the user. So they understand what actions need to be taken place whether there's automated actions or or they have to get approvals to maybe make an update to a certain environment. >> All right, you got telemetry, data power, the the advanced cluster management ACM. What's the overlap of the visibility and automation here. Can you guys talk about that? >> Well, let's say it's a great question, John what we'd like to do is we'd like to sort of separate the different areas. There's the seeing, right. And what's going on in these environment. Right. So getting the data analyzing it and determining what needs to be done. And then the, you know the recommendation of the automation. As Dave said, in a lot of environments, there's a process of either approvals or checkpoints or, you know evaluation of the changes being made to the system. Right. So separating the data and the analysis from the what do you want to do at this and making that configurable I think is really powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean I think that's the number one thing is like, you know everyone always asks, what do you optimize for do you optimize for the automation or the visibility? And I think, you know, there's always a trade-off and that's always interesting question David- love to get your thoughts. If someone asks you, Hey, I'm a I'm I have a team of people. What do I optimize for? The visibility or the automation or both? Is or is there a rule of thumb or is there a playbook? What w how would you answer that question? >> Well, there's a couple of things. I first, I think the, the ability to pull the data together to get visibility across the environment is critical. And then what becomes often complex is how the different disciplines, how the different parts of the system are able to work together on common understanding of the resources common understanding the applications. That's usually where systems start falling down. And so it's too siloed. So one of the key things we have with with our systems, particularly with OpenShift and row and with ACM and Ansible is the ability to have the common back lane and the ability to have a common understanding of the resources and the applications. And then you can start integrating the data around that common, those common data models and take appropriate actions on that. So that's how you ended up getting the visibility integrated with the automation. >> When you think about this, Joe about the security aspect of it and the edge of the network which has been a big theme this year and going into next year, a lot more discussion just the industrial edge, you know, that's important. You got to take all this into account. How do you, how would you talk about folks who are thinking about embedding security and thinking about now the distributed edge specifically? >> Right. So we thought it was complicated before, right? It goes up a notch here, right? As you have, you know, more and more edge applications I think at the edge, you're going to want automated policies and automated configurations in force so that when a device connects up to a network or is, you know analyzed that there's a set of policies and some configurations and versions that need to be applied to that device, these devices, aren't always connected. There's not always high bandwidth. So you basically want a high degree of automation in that case. And to get back to your early point there are certain things you can set like policies about security or configuration. You say, I always want it to be like this and make it so and there's other things where they're more you know, complicated, right. To, to address or have regulatory requirements or oversight issues. And those things you want to tell somebody I think this should be done. Is this the right thing to do? Is it okay? Do it, but at the edge you're going to have a lot more sort of lights out automation to keep these things secure, to configure. Right. >> It's funny. I was, some of the Ansible guys are talking about, you know code for code, changing code all the time and dynamic nature of some of the emerging tech coming out of the Red Hat teams. It's pretty interesting. You guys have going on there, but you know, you can bring it down to the average enterprise and main street, you know enterprise out there, you know, they're looking at, okay I got some public loud. Now I got hybrid. I'm going a hundred percent hybrid. That's pretty much the general consensus of all the enterprises. Okay. So now you say, okay, if I understand this correctly you got insights on REL, OpenShift and Ansible platform. So I'm, am I set up for an open hybrid cloud? That's the question I want to ask you guys does that give me the foundation to allow me to start the cloud adoption with an, a true distributed open way >> I'll I'll offer to go first. I think there's a couple of things you need in order to run across hybrid clouds. And I think Red Hat from a platform point of view the fact that Red Hat platforms run across all those different environments from the public cloud to on-premise and physical vert to edge devices. Now you have consistency of those platforms whether it's your traditional on REL, your container based workloads on shift or automation that's being turned in by Ansible. Those are consistent across all these different hybrid cloud environments. So reduces the complexity by standardizing those platforms across any and all of those different substrates. Then, when you can take the data from those systems bring them centrally and use it to manage those things to a higher degree of automation. Now you take an, another sort of chunk of complexity out of the problem, right? Consistency of getting data from all those different systems being able to set policies and enforce things across all those distributed environments is huge. >> Yeah. And then, you know, it fills in the gaps when you start thinking about the siloed teams, you know, the, the, I think one of the messages that I've been hearing out of Red Hat Summit in the industry that's consistent is the unification trend that's going on. Unifying development teams in a way that creates more of an exponential value curve rather than just linear progressions in, in traditional IT. Are you guys seeing that as well? I mean, what's your take on this? That's that piece of the story? >> Well, I think the shift that we've seen for the last few years actually quite a few years with DevOps and SRE is started to bring a lot of the disciplines together that you mentioned that are traditionally silos. And you're finding the effectiveness of that is really around many of the areas that we've been discussing here which is open platforms that can run consistently across a hybrid environment, the ability to get data and visibility out of this platform. So you can see across the distributed environment across the hybrid environment and then the ability to take actions in Bourse or update environments through automation is, is is really what's critical to bring things to to bring it all together. >> Yeah. I think that's such an important point, Joe. You know, I was talking with Chris right around and we we've covered this in the past red hats success with academics in the young people coming into in the universities with computer science. It's not just computer science anymore. Now you have engineering degrees kind of cross-disciplinary with SRS is SRE movement because you're looking at cloud operations at scale. That's not an IT problem anymore. It's actually an IT next gen problem. And this is kind of what, there's no real degree. There's no real credential for, you know large scale hybrid cloud environment. You guys have the mass open cloud initiative. I saw that going on. That's some really pretty big things. This is a, a change and, and talent. What's your, what's your view on this? Because I think people want to learn what what do I need to be in the future? What position? >> So John it's a great question. I think Ansible actually addresses a number of the issues you brought up, which is, you know historically there've been different tools for each of the different groups. So, you know, developers had their favorite set of tools and different, IT areas their favorite set of tools and technologies. And it was sort of like a tower of Babel. People did not share the same, you know sort of languages and tools. Ansible crosses both your your development test and operational teams. So creates a common language, now that can be used across different teams. It's easy to understand. So it sort of democratizes automation. You don't have to be deeply skilled in some, you know misspoke language or technology in order to be able to do some level of automation. So I think sort of sharing the same technology and tools I'd like an answer, more democratizing it so that more people can get involved in automating sharing that automation across teams and unifying those worlds is huge, right? So I think that's a game changer as well in terms of getting these teams work holistically integrated. >> Yeah. And there's also a better together panel on the Ansible and advanced cluster management session. Folks watching should check it out on on the virtual event platform on that point while I got you here on that point, let's let's talk about the portfolio updates for advanced cluster management for Kubernetes, what's new since the Ansible Fest, Ansible Fest announcements >> There's quite a bit that's been new since Ansible Fest. Ansible Fest well actually going back to Summit last year we introduced advanced cluster management. For years, we've been seeing the growth of Kubernetes with cloud native and clusters. And what ACM really allows enterprises to do is is scale out their deployments of OpenShift. Well, one of the things we found is that as you're deploying workloads or clusters or trying to take care of the compliance, the importance of integrating that environment with the breadth of capabilities that Ansible has in automation. So that's what we announced that at Ansible Fest following last year's summit what we've done is put a lot more focus on that integration with Ansible. So when you bring up, provision a cluster maybe you need to make some storage or security configurations on behalf of that cluster or if you're taking care of the compliance how do you remediate any issues with Ansible or one of the things that get shown a lot, demonstrate a lot with customers like is when you're deploying applications into production, how do you configure the network? Do the network configurations like a load balancer maybe a ticket into your service management system along with say a threat detection on your security. So a lot of advances with ACM and the integration with a broader ecosystem of IT, in particular with, with Ansible >> What's the ecosystem update for partners? And this has comes up all the time. I want to make sure I get this in there. I want it, I missed it. Last time we chatted, you know, the partner impact to this. You mentioned the ecosystem and you've got native Coobernetti's, non-native what's native to open. You guys have a lot of native things and sometimes it's just support for other clouds. So you start to get into the integration questions. Partners are very interested in what you guys are doing. Can you share the partner update on how they play and what impacts them the most here? >> Yeah. On the events, cluster management ACM front first with this integration with Ansible that actually allows us to integrate with the wealth of partner ecosystem the Ansible apps, which is huge. So that's, that's one, one space. And then the way ACM works, this policy desirous state model is we've been able to integrate with a large number of partners around particularly the security space model the service management space, where they, where we can enforce the use of certain security tools on the on the clusters themselves. So it's really opened up how quickly partner offerings can be integrated into the OpenShift environment at scale across all the clusters that you want, that you need to support it on what the appropriate configurations and policies >> I got to ask you on the insight side you mentioned the expansion across the platform. Now, if you go out and take out to the ecosystem, you know there's guard rails around governance how far can partners push their data in terms of sharing? That's something that might come up when you comment on that. >> Sure. So Red Hat, you know, takes, you know our customer data very seriously. We're a trusted partner to our customers. So the data that we get from systems we make sure that we are following all of the governance and oversight necessary to protect that data. So far, we have basically been collecting that data and using that data at Red Hat. Our plan really is to allow partners with the right degree of governance and control to be able to use some of that data in the future, under the right conditions whether it's anonymized or aggregated, things like that to be able to take that data and to add value to customers if they can enrich customers or or help customers by getting some access to that data without every vendor or partner, having to go out to systems and having to connect and pull data back. That's a pretty tough situation for customers to live with. But I think that fact that we're ahead is trusted. We've been doing this for awhile. We know how to handle the data. We know how to provide the governance. But our plan really is to enable partners to use that data ecosystem. I will say that initially what they had said about ACM and partners, Ansible has been working with partners on the automation side at a very large scale, right? So if you look at the amount of partners that are doing automation, work with us we have some pretty strong, you know, depth there. But in terms of working with partners, our plan is to take the data ecosystem, expand that as well. >> It's really a nice mix between the Ansible OpenShift and then REL, do you guys have great insights across now? I think the open innovation just continues to be every year. I say the same thing. It's almost like a broken record but every year it just gets better and better. You know, innovation out in the open you guys doing a great job and continuing and now certainly as the pandemic looks like it's coming to an end soon, post-pandemic, a lot more projects are being worked on a lot more productivity, as we said at the top. So to end the segment out I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on what happens next. As we come out of the pandemic, the table has been set. The foundation's there, cloud native is continuing to accelerate rapidly in the open OpenSource, going through them on another level. What's next what's, what's going to what's next for customers. Are they going to continue to double down on those? The winds they're going to shut down certain projects. What happens after this pandemic? How do people grow, Dave? We'll start with you. >> Well, I think, yes we all see the light at the end of the tunnel, John. It's great. And I think if a positive, is it really throughout this? We've been accelerated in the digitization and at modernization cross the board across industries. Okay. And that is really teaching all of us a lot about the importance of how do you start managing and running this at scale and securing this at scale. So I think what we'll see coming out of this is just that much more effort, open ecosystems. How you really bring together data across insights? How do you bring in increasing the amount of analytics AI to now do something turn that data into information that you can respond with and that in turn, close it, closing the loop with automation against or against your hybrid cloud environment? We're just going to see acceleration of that occurring. >> Awesome, great insights there. Open data insights, automation, all kind of coming together. AI. You don't have AI in your, your plans. Someone was Wall Street was joking. That's going to be the future stable stakes get listed on Wall Street. You got to have some sort of AI piece. They have great insight, Joe, your take on what's next? What, what what's going to what's going to happen as we come out of the pandemic? >> Yeah. We've definitely seen people, you know advance their digital transformation. And I don't think it's going to stop. Right? So the speed scale and complexity or just put more pressure on teams, right? To be able to support these environments that are evolving at light speed. So I think Red Hat is really well positioned and is a great partner for folks who are trying to get more digital, faster trying to leverage these technologies from the hybrid cloud to the edge. They're going to need lots of help. Red Hat is in a great position. >> Okay. >> You guys doing great work, Dave Linquist, Joe Fitzgerald. Great to have you back on again. Open, always wins. And as end users become much more participants in the open source ecosystem and user contributions and user interactions software at scale, it's now a new come next generation commercial environment, You guys are doing a great job. Thank you for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks John. >> Okay. Red Hat Summit 21 CUBE coverage. I'm John Furrier getting all the action from the experts who've been there, done that living through it, being more productive and have bringing benefits to you being open source. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of DevOps Virtual Forum, brought to you by Broadcom. >> Hi, Lisa Martin here covering the Broadcom DevOps Virtual Forum. I'm very pleased to be joined today by a CUBE alumni, Jeffrey Hammond, the Vice President and Principal Analyst serving CIOs at Forrester. Jeffrey, nice to talk with you today. >> Good morning, it's good to be here. >> So, a virtual forum, a great opportunity to engage with our audiences. So much has changed in the last, it's an understatement, right? Or it's an overstated thing, but it's obvious. So much has changed. When we think of DevOps, one of the things that we think of is speed, enabling organizations to be able to better serve customers or adapt to changing markets like we're in now. Speaking of the need to adapt, talk to us about what you're seeing with respect to DevOps and Agile in the age of COVID. What are things looking like? >> Yeah, I think that for most organizations, we're in a period of adjustment. When we initially started, it was essentially a sprint. You run as hard as you can for as fast as you can for as long as you can and you just kind of power through it. And that's actually what the folks at GitHub saw in May, when they run an analysis of how developers commit times and level of work that they were committing and how they were working. In the first couple months of COVID, was progressing, they found that developers, at least in the Pacific Time Zone, were actually increasing their work volume, maybe 'cause they didn't have two hour commutes, or maybe because they work stuck away in their homes, but for whatever reason, they were doing more work. And it's almost like, if you've ever run a marathon, the first mile or two in the marathon, you feel great, you just want to run and you want to power through it, you want to go hard. And if you do that, by the time you get to mile 18 or 19, you're going to be gassed, sucking for wind. And that's I think where we're starting to hit. So as we start to gear our development shops up for the reality that most of us won't be returning into an office until 2021 at the earliest. And many organizations will be fundamentally changing their remote work policies, we have to make sure that the agile processes that we use, and the DevOps processes and tools that we use to support these teams are essentially aligned to help developers run that marathon, instead of just kind of power through. So, let me give you a couple specifics. For many organizations, they have been in an environment where they will tolerate remote work and what I would call remote work around the edges, like developers can be remote, but product managers and essentially scrum masters and all the administrators that are running the SCM repositories and the DevOps pipelines are all in the office. And it's essentially centralized work. That's not where we are anymore. We're moving from remote workers at the edge to remote workers at the center of what we do. And so, one of the implications of that is that we have to think about all the activities that you need to do from a DevOps perspective, or from an agile perspective. They have to be remotable. One of the things I found with some of the organizations I talked to early on was, there were things that administrators had to do that required them to go into the office, to reboot the SCM server as an example, or to make sure that the final approvals for production were made. And so, the code could be moved into the production environment. And so, it actually was a little bit difficult because they had to get specific approval from the HR organizations to actually be allowed to go into the office in some states. And so, one of the the results of that is that, while we've traditionally said tools are important, but they're not as important as culture, as structure, as organization, as process, I think we have to rethink that a little bit. Because to the extent that tools enable us to be more digitally organized and to achieve higher levels of digitization in our processes, and be able to support the idea of remote workers in the center. They're now on an equal footing with so many of the other levers that organizations have at their disposal. I'll give you another example. For years, we've said that the key to success with Agile at the team level is cross functional, co-located teams that are working together. Physically co-located. It's the easiest way to show agile success. We can't do that anymore. We can't be physically located at least for the foreseeable future. So, how do you take the low hanging fruits of an agile transformation and apply it in the time of COVID? Well, I think what you have to do is you have to look at what physical co-location has enabled in the past and understand that it's not so much the fact that we're together looking at each other across the table, it's the fact that we're able to get into a shared mind space. From a measurement perspective, we can have shared purpose, we can engage in high bandwidth communications. It's the spiritual aspect of that physical co-location that is actually important. So, one of the biggest things that organizations need to start to ask themselves is, how do we achieve spiritual co-location with our Agile teams, because we don't have the ease of physical co-location available to us anymore. >> Well, spiritual co-location is such an interesting kind of provocative phrase there, but something that probably was a challenge. Here we are seven, eight months in, for many organizations as you say, going from physical workspaces, co-location, being able to collaborate face to face to a light switch flip overnight, and this undefined indeterminate period of time where all we were living with was uncertainty. How does spiritual... When you talk about spiritual co-location in terms of collaboration and processes and technology. Help us unpack that and how are you seeing organizations adopt it? >> Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it goes to the very root of how organizations are trying to transform themselves to be more agile and to embrace DevOps. If you go all the way back to the original Agile Manifesto. There were four principles that were espoused. Individuals and interactions over processes and tools. That's still important, individuals and interactions are at the core of software development. Processes and tools that support those individuals in those interactions are more important than ever. Working software over comprehensive documentation. Working software is still more important. But when you are trying to onboard employees, and they can't come into the office, and they can't do the two day training session, and kind of understand how things work, and they can't just holler over theCUBE, to ask a question, you may need to invest a little bit more in documentation to help that onboarding process be successful in a remote context. Customer collaboration over contract negotiation. Absolutely still important. But employee collaboration is equally as important if you want to be spiritually co-located and if you want to have a shared purpose. And then, responding to change over following a plan. I think one of the things that's happened in a lot of organizations is we have focused so much of our DevOps effort around velocity. Getting faster, we need to run as fast as we can. Like that sprinter, okay? Trying to just power through it as quickly as possible. But as we shift to the marathon way of thinking, velocity is still important but agility becomes even more important. So when you have to create an application in three weeks to do track and trace for your employees, agility is more important than just flat out velocity. And so, changing some of the ways that we think about DevOps practices is important to make sure that that agility is there. For one thing, you have to defer decisions as far down the chain to the team level as possible. So those teams have to be empowered to make decisions. Because you can't have a program level meeting of six or seven teams in one large hall and say, here's the lay of the land, here's what we're going to do, here are our processes, and here are our guardrails. Those teams have to make decisions much more quickly. The developers are actually developing code in smaller chunks of flow. They have to be able to take two hours here, or 50 minutes there and do something useful. And so, the tools that support us have to become tolerant of the reality of how we're working. So, if they work in a way that it allows the team together to take as much autonomy as they can handle, to allow them to communicate in a way that delivers shared purpose, and allows them to adapt and master new technologies, then they're in the zone, they'll get spiritually connected. I hope that makes sense (chuckles). >> It does, I think we all could use some of that. But you talked about in the beginning and I've talked to numerous companies during the pandemic on theCUBE about the productivity or rather the number of hours worked has gone way up for many roles, and times that they normally at late at night on the weekends. So, but it's a cultural, it's a mind shift. To your point about DevOps focused on velocity, sprint, sprint, sprint, and now we have to. So that cultural shift is not an easy one for developers and even the biz folks to flip so quickly. What have you seen in terms of the velocity at which businesses are able to get more of that balance between the velocity, the sprint and the agility? >> I think at the core, this really comes down to management sensitivity. When everybody was in the office, you could kind of see the mental health of development teams by watching how they work, you can call it management by walking around, right? We can't do that, managers have to be more aware of what their teams are doing, because they're not going to see that developer doing a check in at 9:00 p.m. on a Friday, because that's what they had to do to meet the objectives. And they're going to have to find new ways to measure engagement and also potential burnout. A friend of mine once had a great metric that he called the Parking Lot Metric. It was helpful as the parking lot at nine and helpful was it at five. And that gives you an indication of how engaged your developers are. What's the digital equivalent of the Parking Lot Metric in the time of COVID, it's commit stats, it's commit rates, it's the turn rate that we have in our code. So we have this information, we may not be collecting it, but then the next question becomes how do we use that information? Do we use that information to say, well, this team isn't delivering at the same level of productivity as another team? Do we weaponize that data? Or do we use that data to identify impedances in the process? Why isn't a team working effectively? Is it because they have higher levels of family obligations, and they've got kids that are at home? Is it because they're working with hardware technology, and guess what, it's not easy to get the hardware technology into their home office, because it's in the lab, at the corporate office. Or they're trying to communicate halfway around the world. And they're communicating with an office lab that is also shut down. And the bandwidth just doesn't enable the level of high bandwidth communications. So, from a DevOps perspective, managers have to get much more sensitive to the exhaust that the DevOps tools are throwing off, but also how they're going to use that in a constructive way to prevent burnout. And then they also need to, if they're not already managing, or monitoring or measuring the level of developer engagement they have, they really need to start. Whether that's surveys around developer satisfaction, whether it's more regular social events where developers can kind of just get together and drink a beer and talk about what's going on in the project and monitoring who checks in and who doesn't. They have to work harder, I think than they ever have before. >> Well, and you mentioned burnout. And that's something that I think we've all faced in this time at varying levels, and it changes and it's a real, there's a tension in the air regardless of where you are. There's a challenge, as you mentioned, people having their kids as co-workers and fighting for bandwidth, because everyone is forced in this situation. I'd love to get your perspective on some businesses that have done this, well, this adaptation. What can you share in terms of some real world examples that might inspire the audience? >> Yeah, I'll start with Stack Overflow. They recently published a piece in the Journal of the ACM around some of the things that they had discovered. First of all, just a cultural philosophy. If one person is remote, everybody is remote. And you just think that way from the executive level. Social spaces, one of the things that they talk about doing is leaving the video conference room open at the team level all day long. And the team members will go on mute, so that they don't have to, that they don't necessarily have to be there with somebody else listening to them. But if they have a question, they can just pop off mute really quickly and ask the question and if anybody else knows the answer, it's kind of like being in that virtual pod, if you will. Even here at Forrester, one of the things that we've done is we've invested in social ceremonies. We've actually moved our team meetings on my analyst team from once every two weeks to weekly. And we have built more time in for socialization, just so we can see how we're doing. I think Microsoft has really made some good information available in how they've managed things like the onboarding process. I think Amanda Silver over there mentioned that a couple of weeks ago, a presentation they did that Microsoft's onboarded over 150,000 people since the start of COVID. If you don't have good remote onboarding processes, that's going to be a disaster. Now, they're not all developers, but if you think about it, everything from how you do the interviewing process, to how you get people their badges, to how they get their equipment. Security is another issue that they called out. Typically, IT security, security of developers machines, ends at the corporate desktop. But now since we're increasingly using our own machines, our own hardware, security organization's going to have to extend their security policies to cover employee devices. And that's caused them to scramble a little bit. So, the examples are out there. It's not a lot of like, we have to do everything completely differently. But it's a lot of subtle changes that have to be made. I'll give you another example. One of the things that we are seeing is that more and more organizations to deal with the challenges around agility with respect to delivering software and embracing low code tools. In fact, we see about 50% of firms are using low code tools right now, we predict it's going to be 75% by the end of next year. So, figuring out how your DevOps processes support an organization that might be using Mendix or OutSystems, or the Power Platform, building the front end of an application, like a track and trace application really, really quickly. But then hooking it up to your back end infrastructure. Does that happen completely outside the DevOps investments that you're making? And the agile processes that you're making? Or do you adapt your organization. Are hybrid teams now, teams that not just have professional developers, but also have business users that are doing some development with a low code tool. Those are the kinds of things that we have to be willing to entertain in order to shift the focus a little bit more toward the agility side, I think. >> A lot of obstacles but also a lot of opportunities for businesses to really learn, pay attention here, pivot and grow and hopefully some good opportunities for the developers and the business folks to just get better at what they're doing and learning to embrace spiritual co-location. Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us on the program today, very insightful conversation. >> It's my pleasure, it's an important thing. Just remember, if you're going to run that marathon, break it into 26, 10 minute runs, take a walk break in between each, and you'll find that you'll get there. >> Digestible components, wise advice. Jeffrey Hammond, thank you so much for joining. For Jeffrey, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching Broadcom's DevOps Virtual Forum. (bright upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi, Lisa Martin here covering the Broadcom dev ops virtual forum. I'm very pleased to be joined today by a cube alumni, Jeffrey Hammond, the vice president and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. Jeffrey. Nice to talk with you today. >>Good morning. It's good to be here. Yeah. >>So a virtual forum, great opportunity to engage with our audiences so much has changed in the last it's an understatement, right? Or it's an overstated thing, but it's an obvious, so much has changed when we think of dev ops. One of the things that we think of is speed, you know, enabling organizations to be able to better serve customers or adapt to changing markets like we're in now, speaking of the need to adapt, talk to us about what you're seeing with respect to dev ops and agile in the age of COVID, what are things looking like? >>Yeah, I think that, um, for most organizations, we're in a, uh, a period of adjustment, uh, when we initially started, it was essentially a sprint, you know, you run as hard as you can for as fast as you can for as long as you can and you just kind of power through it. And, and that's actually what, um, the folks that get hub saw in may when they ran an analysis of how developers, uh, commit times and a level of work that they were committing and how they were working, uh, in the first couple of months of COVID was, was progressing. They found that developers, at least in the Pacific time zone were actually increasing their work volume, maybe because they didn't have two hour commutes or maybe because they were stuck away in their homes, but for whatever reason, they were doing more work. >>And it's almost like, you know, if you've ever run a marathon the first mile or two in the marathon, you feel great and you just want to run and you want to power through it and you want to go hard. And if you do that by the time you get to mile 18 or 19, you're going to be gassed. It's sucking for wind. Uh, and, and that's, I think where we're starting to hit. So as we start to, um, gear our development chops out for the reality that most of us won't be returning into an office until 2021 at the earliest and many organizations will, will be fundamentally changing, uh, their remote workforce, uh, policies. We have to make sure that the agile processes that we use and the dev ops processes and tools that we use to support these teams are essentially aligned to help developers run that marathon instead of just kind of power through. >>So, um, let me give you a couple of specifics for many organizations, they have been in an environment where they will, um, tolerate Rover remote work and what I would call remote work around the edges like developers can be remote, but product managers and, um, you know, essentially scrum masters and all the administrators that are running the, uh, uh, the SCM repositories and, and the dev ops pipelines are all in the office. And it's essentially centralized work. That's not, we are anymore. We're moving from remote workers at the edge to remote workers at the center of what we do. And so one of the implications of that is that, um, we have to think about all the activities that you need to do from a dev ops perspective or from an agile perspective, they have to be remote people. One of the things I found with some of the organizations I talked to early on was there were things that administrators had to do that required them to go into the office to reboot the SCM server as an example, or to make sure that the final approvals for production, uh, were made. >>And so the code could be moved into the production environment. And so it actually was a little bit difficult because they had to get specific approval from the HR organizations to actually be allowed to go into the office in some States. And so one of the, the results of that is that while we've traditionally said, you know, tools are important, but they're not as important as culture as structure as organization as process. I think we have to rethink that a little bit because to the extent that tools enable us to be more digitally organized and to hiring, you know, achieve higher levels of digitization in our processes and be able to support the idea of remote workers in the center. They're now on an equal footing with so many of the other levers, uh, that, that, um, uh, that organizations have at their disposal. Um, I'll give you another example for years. >>We've said that the key to success with agile at the team level is cross-functional co located teams that are working together physically co located. It's the easiest way to show agile success. We can't do that anymore. We can't be physically located at least for the foreseeable future. So, you know, how do you take the low hanging fruits of an agile transformation and apply it in, in, in, in the time of COVID? Well, I think what you have to do is that you have to look at what physical co-location has enabled in the past and understand that it's not so much the fact that we're together looking at each other across the table. It's the fact that we're able to get into a shared mindspace, uh, from, um, uh, from a measurement perspective, we can have shared purpose. We can engage in high bandwidth communications. It's the spiritual aspect of that physical co-location that is actually important. So one of the biggest things that organizations need to start to ask themselves is how do we achieve spiritual colocation with our agile teams? Because we don't have the, the ease of physical co-location available to us anymore? >>Well, the spiritual co-location is such an interesting kind of provocative phrase there, but something that probably was a challenge here, we are seven, eight months in for many organizations, as you say, going from, you know, physical workspaces, co-location being able to collaborate face to face to a, a light switch flip overnight. And this undefined period of time where all we were living with with was uncertainty, how does spiritual, what do you, when you talk about spiritual co-location in terms of collaboration and processes and technology help us unpack that, and how are you seeing organizations adopted? >>Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a great question. And, and I think it goes to the very root of how organizations are trying to transform themselves to be more agile and to embrace dev ops. Um, if you go all the way back to the, to the original, uh, agile manifesto, you know, there were four principles that were espoused individuals and interactions over processes and tools. That's still important. Individuals and interactions are at the core of software development, processes and tools that support those individual and interact. Uh, those individuals in those interactions are more important than ever working software over comprehensive documentation. Working software is still more important, but when you are trying to onboard employees and they can't come into the office and they can't do the two day training session and kind of understand how things work and they can't just holler over the cube, uh, to ask a question, you may need to invest a little bit more in documentation to help that onboarding process be successful in a remote context, uh, customer collaboration over contract negotiation. >>Absolutely still important, but employee collaboration is equally as important if you want to be spiritually, spiritually co-located. And if you want to have a shared purpose and then, um, responding to change over following a plan. I think one of the things that's happened in a lot of organizations is we have focused so much of our dev ops effort around velocity getting faster. We need to run as fast as we can like that sprinter. Okay. You know, trying to just power through it as quickly as possible. But as we shift to, to the, to the marathon way of thinking, um, velocity is still important, but agility becomes even more important. So when you have to create an application in three weeks to do track and trace for your employees, agility is more important. Um, and then just flat out velocity. Um, and so changing some of the ways that we think about dev ops practices, um, is, is important to make sure that that agility is there for one thing, you have to defer decisions as far down the chain to the team level as possible. >>So those teams have to be empowered to make decisions because you can't have a program level meeting of six or seven teams and one large hall and say, here's the lay of the land. Here's what we're going to do here are our processes. And here are our guardrails. Those teams have to make decisions much more quickly that developers are actually developing code in smaller chunks of flow. They have to be able to take two hours here or 50 minutes there and do something useful. And so the tools that support us have to become tolerant of the reality of, of, of, of how we're working. So if they work in a way that it allows the team together to take as much autonomy as they can handle, um, to, uh, allow them to communicate in a way that, that, that delivers shared purpose and allows them to adapt and master new technologies, then they're in the zone in their spiritual, they'll get spiritually connected. I hope that makes sense. >>It does. I think we all could use some of that, but, you know, you talked about in the beginning and I've, I've talked to numerous companies during the pandemic on the cube about the productivity, or rather the number of hours of work has gone way up for many roles, you know, and, and, and times that they normally late at night on the weekends. So, but it's a cultural, it's a mind shift to your point about dev ops focused on velocity, sprints, sprints, sprints, and now we have to, so that cultural shift is not an easy one for developers. And even at this folks to flip so quickly, what have you seen in terms of the velocity at which businesses are able to get more of that balance between the velocity, the sprint and the agility? >>I think, I think at the core, this really comes down to management sensitivity. Um, when everybody was in the office, you could kind of see the mental health of development teams by, by watching how they work. You know, you call it management by walking around, right. We can't do that. Managers have to, um, to, to be more aware of what their teams are doing, because they're not going to see that, that developer doing a check-in at 9:00 PM on a Friday, uh, because that's what they had to do, uh, to meet the objectives. And, um, and, and they're going to have to, to, um, to find new ways to measure engagement and also potential burnout. Um, friend of mine once had, uh, had a great metric that he called the parking lot metric. It was helpful as the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five? >>And that gives you an indication of how engaged your developers are. Um, what's the digital equivalent equivalent to the parking lot metric in the time of COVID it's commit stats, it's commit rates. It's, um, you know, the, uh, the turn rate, uh, that we have in our code. So we have this information, we may not be collecting it, but then the next question becomes, how do we use that information? Do we use that information to say, well, this team isn't delivering as at the same level of productivity as another team, do we weaponize that data or do we use that data to identify impedances in the process? Um, why isn't a team working effectively? Is it because they have higher levels of family obligations and they've got kids that, that are at home? Um, is it because they're working with, um, you know, hardware technology, and guess what, they, it's not easy to get the hardware technology into their home office because it's in the lab at the, uh, at the corporate office, uh, or they're trying to communicate, uh, you know, halfway around the world. >>And, uh, they're communicating with a, with an office lab that is also shut down and, and, and the bandwidth just doesn't enable the, the level of high bandwidth communications. So from a dev ops perspective, managers have to get much more sensitive to the, the exhaust that the dev ops tools are throwing off, but also how they're going to use that in a constructive way to, to prevent burnout. And then they also need to, if they're not already managing or monitoring or measuring the level of developer engagement, they have, they really need to start whether that's surveys around developer satisfaction, um, whether it's, you know, more regular social events, uh, where developers can kind of just get together and drink a beer and talk about what's going on in the project, uh, and monitoring who checks in and who doesn't, uh, they have to, to, um, work harder, I think, than they ever have before. >>Well, and you mentioned burnout, and that's something that I think we've all faced in this time at varying levels and it changes. And it's a real, there's a tension in the air, regardless of where you are. There's a challenge, as you mentioned, people having, you know, coworker, their kids as coworkers and fighting for bandwidth, because everyone is forced in this situation. I'd love to get your perspective on some businesses that are, that have done this well, this adaptation, what can you share in terms of some real-world examples that might inspire the audience? >>Yeah. Uh, I'll start with, uh, stack overflow. Uh, they recently published a piece in the journal of the ACM around some of the things that they had discovered. Um, you know, first of all, just a cultural philosophy. If one person is remote, everybody is remote. And you just think that way from an executive level, um, social spaces. One of the things that they talk about doing is leaving a video conference room open at a team level all day long, and the team members, you know, we'll go on mute, you know, so that they don't have to, that they don't necessarily have to be there with somebody else listening to them. But if they have a question, they can just pop off mute really quickly and ask the question. And if anybody else knows the answer, it's kind of like being in that virtual pod. Uh, if you, uh, if you will, um, even here at Forrester, one of the things that we've done is we've invested in social ceremonies. >>We've actually moved our to our team meetings on, on my analyst team from, from once every two weeks to weekly. And we have built more time in for social Ajay socialization, just so we can see, uh, how, how, how we're doing. Um, I think Microsoft has really made some good, uh, information available in how they've managed things like the onboarding process. I think I'm Amanda silver over there mentioned that a couple of weeks ago when, uh, uh, a presentation they did that, uh, uh, Microsoft onboarded over 150,000 people since the start of COVID, if you don't have good remote onboarding processes, that's going to be a disaster. Now they're not all developers, but if you think about it, um, everything from how you do the interviewing process, uh, to how you get people, their badges, to how they get their equipment. Um, security is a, is another issue that they called out typically, uh, it security, um, the security of, of developers machines ends at, at, at the corporate desktop. >>But, you know, since we're increasingly using our own machines, our own hardware, um, security organizations kind of have to extend their security policies to cover, uh, employee devices, and that's caused them to scramble a little bit. Uh, so, so the examples are out there. It's not a lot of, like, we have to do everything completely differently, but it's a lot of subtle changes that, that have to be made. Um, I'll give you another example. Um, one of the things that, that we are seeing is that, um, more and more organizations to deal with the challenges around agility, with respect to delivering software, embracing low-code tools. In fact, uh, we see about 50% of firms are using low-code tools right now. We predict it's going to be 75% by the end of next year. So figuring out how your dev ops processes support an organization that might be using Mendix or OutSystems, or, you know, the power platform building the front end of an application, like a track and trace application really, really quickly, but then hooking it up to your backend infrastructure. Does that happen completely outside the dev ops investments that you're making and the agile processes that you're making, or do you adapt your organization? Um, our hybrid teams now teams that not just have professional developers, but also have business users that are doing some development with a low-code tool. Those are the kinds of things that we have to be, um, willing to, um, to entertain in order to shift the focus a little bit more toward the agility side, I think >>Lot of obstacles, but also a lot of opportunities for businesses to really learn, pay attention here, pivot and grow, and hopefully some good opportunities for the developers and the business folks to just get better at what they're doing and learning to embrace spiritual co-location Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us on the program today. Very insightful conversation. >>My pleasure. It's it's, it's an important thing. Just remember if you're going to run that marathon, break it into 26, 10 minute runs, take a walk break in between each and you'll find that you'll get there. >>Digestible components, wise advice. Jeffery Hammond. Thank you so much for joining for Jeffrey I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum >>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom, >>Continuing our conversations here at Broadcom's dev ops virtual forum. Lisa Martin here, please. To welcome back to the program, Serge Lucio, the general manager of the enterprise software division at Broadcom. Hey, Serge. Welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. So I know you were just, uh, participating with the biz ops manifesto that just happened recently. I just had the chance to talk with Jeffrey Hammond and he unlocked this really interesting concept, but I wanted to get your thoughts on spiritual co-location as really a necessity for biz ops to succeed in this unusual time in which we're living. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation in terms of cultural change versus adoption of technologies? >>Yeah, it's a, it's, it's quite interesting, right? When we, when we think about the major impediments for, uh, for dev ops implementation, it's all about culture, right? And swore over the last 20 years, we've been talking about silos. We'd be talking about the paradox for these teams to when it went to align in many ways, it's not so much about these teams aligning, but about being in the same car in the same books, right? It's really about fusing those teams around kind of the common purpose, a common objective. So to me, the, this, this is really about kind of changing this culture where people start to look at a kind of OKR is instead of the key objective, um, that, that drives the entire team. Now, what it means in practice is really that's, uh, we need to change a lot of behaviors, right? It's not about the Yarki, it's not about roles. It's about, you know, who can do what and when, and, uh, you know, driving a bias towards action. It also means that we need, I mean, especially in this school times, it becomes very difficult, right? To drive kind of a kind of collaboration between these teams. And so I think there there's a significant role that especially tools can play in terms of providing this complex feedback from teams to, uh, to be in that preface spiritual qualification. >>Well, and it talked about culture being, it's something that, you know, we're so used to talking about dev ops with respect to velocity, all about speed here. But of course this time everything changed so quickly, but going from the physical spaces to everybody being remote really does take it. It's very different than you can't replicate it digitally, but there are collaboration tools that can kind of really be essential to help that cultural shift. Right? >>Yeah. So 2020, we, we touch to talk about collaboration in a very mundane way. Like, of course we can use zoom. We can all get into, into the same room. But the point when I think when Jeff says spiritual, co-location, it's really about, we all share the same objective. Do we, do we have a niece who, for instance, our pipeline, right? When you talk about dev ops, probably we all started thinking about this continuous delivery pipeline that basically drives the automation, the orchestration across the team, but just thinking about a pipeline, right, at the end of the day, it's all about what is the meantime to beat back to these teams. If I'm a developer and a commit code, I don't, does it take where, you know, that code to be processed through pipeline pushy? Can I get feedback if I am a finance person who is funding a product or a project, what is my meantime to beat back? >>And so a lot of, kind of a, when we think about the pipeline, I think what's been really inspiring to me in the last year or so is that there is much more of an adoption of the Dora metrics. There is way more of a focus around value stream management. And to me, this is really when we talk about collaboration, it's really a balance. How do you provide the feedback to the different stakeholders across the life cycle in a very timely matter? And that's what we would need to get to in terms of kind of this, this notion of collaboration. It's not so much about people being in the same physical space. It's about, you know, when I checked in code, you know, to do I guess the system to automatically identify what I'm going to break. If I'm about to release some allegation, how can the system help me reduce my change pillar rates? Because it's, it's able to predict that some issue was introduced in the outpatient or work product. Um, so I think there's, there's a great role of technology and AI candidate Lynch to, to actually provide that new level of collaboration. >>So we'll get to AI in a second, but I'm curious, what are some of the, of the metrics you think that really matter right now is organizations are still in some form of transformation to this new almost 100% remote workforce. >>So I'll just say first, I'm not a big fan of metrics. Um, and the reason being that, you know, you can look at a change killer rate, right, or a lead time or cycle time. And those are, those are interesting metrics, right? The trend on metric is absolutely critical, but what's more important is you get to the root cause what is taught to you lean to that metric to degrade or improve or time. And so I'm much more interested and we, you know, fruit for Broadcom. Are we more interested in understanding what are the patterns that contribute to this? So I'll give you a very mundane example. You know, we know that cycle time is heavily influenced by, um, organizational boundaries. So, you know, we talk a lot about silos, but, uh, we we've worked with many of our customers doing value stream mapping. And oftentimes what you see is that really the boundaries of your organization creates a lot of idle time, right? So to me, it's less about the metrics. I think the door metrics are a pretty, you know, valid set metrics, but what's way more important is to understand what are the antiperspirants, what are the things that we can detect through the data that actually are affecting those metrics. And, uh, I mean, over the last 10, 20 years, we've learned a lot about kind of what are, what are the antiperspirants within our large enterprise customers. And there are plenty of them. >>What are some of the things that you're seeing now with respect to patterns that have developed over the last seven to eight months? >>So I think the two areas which clearly are evolving very quickly are on kind of the front end of the life cycle, where DevOps is more and more embracing value stream management value stream mapping. Um, and I think what's interesting is that in many ways the product is becoming the new silo. Uh, the notion of a product is very difficult by itself to actually define people are starting to recognize that a value stream is not its own little kind of Island. That in reality, when I define a product, this product, oftentimes as dependencies on our products and that in fact, you're looking at kind of a network of value streams, if you will. So, so even on that, and there is clearly kind of a new sets, if you will, of anti-patterns where products are being defined as a set of OTRs, they have interdependencies and you have have a new set of silos on the operands, uh, the Abra key movement to Israel and the SRE space where, um, I think there is a cultural clash while the dev ops side is very much embracing this notion of OTRs and value stream mapping and Belgium management. >>On the other end, you have the it operations teams. We still think business services, right? For them, they think about configure items, think about infrastructure. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to see, you know, teams where, you know, the operations team is still thinking about hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of business services. And so the, the, there is there's this boundary where, um, I think, well, SRE is being put in place. And there's lots of thinking about what kind of metrics can be fined. I think, you know, going back to culture, I think there's a lot of cultural evolution that's still required for true operations team. >>And that's a hard thing. Cultural transformation in any industry pandemic or not is a challenging thing. You talked about, uh, AI and automation of minutes ago. How do you think those technologies can be leveraged by DevOps leaders to influence their successes and their ability to collaborate, maybe see eye to eye with the SRS? >>Yeah. Um, so th you're kind of too. So even for myself, as a leader of a, you know, 1500 people organization, there's a number of things I don't see right. On a daily basis. And, um, I think the, the, the, the technologies that we have at our disposal today from the AI are able to mind a lot of data and expose a lot of, uh, issues that's as leaders we may not be aware of. And some of the, some of these are pretty kind of easy to understand, right? We all think we're agile. And yet when you, when you start to understand, for instance, uh, what is the, what is the working progress right to during the sprint? Um, when you start to analyze the data you can detect, for instance, that maybe the teams are over committed, that there is too much work in progress. >>You can start to identify kind of, interdepencies either from a technology, from a people point of view, which were hidden, uh, you can start to understand maybe the change filler rates he's he is dragging. So I believe that there is a, there's a fundamental role to be played by the tools to, to expose again, these anti parents, to, to make these things visible to the teams, to be able to even compare teams. Right. One of the things that's, that's, uh, that's amazing is now we have access to tons of data, not just from a given customer, but across a large number of customers. And so we start to compare all of these teams kind of operate, and what's working, what's not working >>Thoughts on AI and automation as, as a facilitator of spiritual co-location. >>Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's um, you know, th there's, uh, the problem we all face is the unknown, right? The, the law city, but volume variety of the data, uh, everyday we don't really necessarily completely appreciate what is the impact of our actions, right? And so, um, AI can really act as a safety net that enables us to, to understand what is the impact of our actions. Um, and so, yeah, in many ways, the ability to be informed in a timely matter to be able to interact with people on the basis of data, um, and collaborate on the data. And the actual matter, I think is, is a, is a very powerful enabler, uh, on, in that respect. I mean, I, I've seen, um, I've seen countless of times that, uh, for instance, at the SRE boundary, um, to basically show that we'll turn the quality attributes, so an incoming release, right. And exposing that to, uh, an operations person and a sorry person, and enabling that collaboration dialogue through data is a very, very powerful tool. >>Do you have any recommendations for how teams can use, you know, the SRE folks, the dev ops says can use AI and automation in the right ways to be successful rather than some ways that aren't going to be nonproductive. >>Yeah. So to me, the th there, there's a part of the question really is when, when we talk about data, there are there different ways you can use data, right? Um, so you can, you can do a lot of an analytics, predictive analytics. So I think there is a, there's a tendency, uh, to look at, let's say a, um, a specific KPI, like a, an availability KPI, or change filler rate, and to basically do a regression analysis and projecting all these things, going to happen in the future. To me, that that's, that's a, that's a bad approach. The reason why I fundamentally think it's a better approach is because we are systems. The way we develop software is, is a, is a non-leader kind of system, right? Software development is not linear nature. And so I think there's a D this is probably the worst approach is to actually focus on metrics on the other end. >>Um, if you, if you start to actually understand at a more granular level, what har, uh, which are the things which are contributing to this, right? So if you start to understand, for instance, that whenever maybe, you know, you affect a specific part of the application that translates into production issues. So we, we have, I've actually, uh, a customer who, uh, identified that, uh, over 50% of their unplanned outages were related to specific components in your architecture. And whenever these components were changed, this resulted in these plant outages. So if you start to be able to basically establish causality, right, cause an effect between kind of data across the last cycle. I think, I think this is the right way to, uh, to, to use AI. And so pharma to be, I think it's way more God could have a classification problem. What are the classes of problems that do exist and affect things as opposed to analytics, predictive, which I don't think is as powerful. >>So I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation, that just came off the biz ops manifesto. You're one of the authors of that. I want to get your thoughts on dev ops and biz ops overlapping, complimenting each other, what, from a, the biz ops perspective, what does it mean to the future of dev ops? >>Yeah, so, so it's interesting, right? If you think about DevOps, um, there's no felony document, right? Can we, we can refer to the Phoenix project. I mean, there are a set of documents which have been written, but in many ways, there's no clear definition of what dev ops is. Uh, if you go to the dev ops Institute today, you'll see that they are specific, um, trainings for instance, on value management on SRE. And so in many ways, the problem we have as an industry is that, um, there are set practices between agile dev ops, SRE Valley should management. I told, right. And we all basically talk about the same things, right. We all talk about essentially, um, accelerating in the meantime fee to feedback, but yet we don't have the common framework to talk about that. The other key thing is that we add to wait, uh, for, uh, for jeans, Jean Kim's Lascaux, um, to, uh, to really start to get into the business aspect, right? >>And for value stream mapping to start to emerge for us to start as an industry, right. It, to start to think about what is our connection with the business aspect, what's our purpose, right? And ultimately it's all about driving these business outcomes. And so to me, these ops is really about kind of, uh, putting a lens on this critical element that it's not business and it, that we in fact need to fuse business 19 that I need needs to transform itself to recognize that it's, it's this value generator, right. It's not a cost center. And so the relationship to me, it's more than BizOps provides kind of this Oliver or kind of framework, if you will. That set the context for what is the reason, uh, for it to exist. What's part of the core values and principles that it needs to embrace to, again, change from a cost center to a value center. And then we need to start to use this as a way to start to unify some of the, again, the core practices, whether it's agile, DevOps value, stream mapping SRE. Um, so, so I think over time, my hope is that we start to optimize a lot of our practices, language, um, and, uh, and cultural elements. >>Last question surgeon, the last few seconds we have here talking about this, the relation between biz ops and dev ops, um, what do you think as DevOps evolves? And as you talked to circle some of your insights, what should our audience keep their eyes on in the next six to 12 months? >>So to me, the key, the key, um, challenge for, for the industry is really around. So we were seeing a very rapid shift towards kind of, uh, product to product, right. Which we don't want to do is to recreate kind of these new silos, these hard silos. Um, so that, that's one of the big changes, uh, that I think we need to be, uh, to be really careful about, um, because it is ultimately, it is about culture. It's not about, uh, it's not about, um, kind of how we segment the work, right. And, uh, any true culture that we can overcome kind of silos. So back to, I guess, with Jeffrey's concept of, um, kind of the spiritual co-location, I think it's, it's really about that too. It's really about kind of, uh, uh, focusing on the business outcomes on kind of aligning on driving engagement across the teams, but, but not for create a, kind of a new set of silos, which instead of being vertical are going to be these horizontal products >>Crazy by surge that looking at culture as kind of a way of really, uh, uh, addressing and helping to, uh, re re reduce, replace challenges. We thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time at today's DevOps virtual forum. >>Thank you. Thanks for your time. >>I'll be right back >>From around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of devops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to Broadcom's DevOps virtual forum, I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm joined by another Martin, very socially distanced from me all the way coming from Birmingham, England is Glynn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT. Glynn, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you, Lisa. I'm looking forward to it. As we said before, we went live to Martins for the person one in one segment. So this is going to be an interesting segment guys, what we're going to do is Glynn's going to give us a really kind of deep inside out view of devops from an evolution perspective. So Glynn, let's start. Transformation is at the heart of what you do. It's obviously been a very transformative year. How have the events of this year affected the >> transformation that you are still responsible for driving? Yeah. Thank you, Lisa. I mean, yeah, it has been a difficult year. >>Um, and although working for BT, which is a global telecommunications company, um, I'm relatively resilient, I suppose, as a, an industry, um, through COVID obviously still has been affected and has got its challenges. And if anything, it's actually caused us to accelerate our transformation journey. Um, you know, we had to do some great things during this time around, um, you know, in the UK for our emergency and, um, health workers give them unlimited data and for vulnerable people to support them. And that's spent that we've had to deliver changes quickly. Um, but what we want to be able to do is deliver those kinds of changes quickly, but sustainably for everything that we do, not just because there's an emergency. Um, so we were already on the kind of journey to agile, but ever more important now that we are, we are able to do those, that kind of work, do it more quickly. >>Um, and that it works because the, the implications of it not working is, can be terrible in terms of you know, we've been supporting testing centers,  new hospitals to treat COVID patients. So we need to get it right. And then therefore the coverage of what we do, the quality of what we do and how quickly we do it really has taken on a new scale and what was already a very competitive market within the telco industry within the UK. Um, you know, what I would say is that, you know, we are under pressure to deliver more value, but we have small cost challenges. We have to obviously, um, deal with the fact that, you know, COVID 19 has hit most industries kind of revenues and profits. So we've got this kind of paradox between having less costs, but having to deliver more value quicker and  to higher quality. So yeah, certainly the finances is, um, on our minds and that's why we need flexible models, cost models that allow us to kind of do growth, but we get that growth by showing that we're delivering value. Um, especially in these times when there are financial challenges on companies. So one of the things that I want to ask you about, I'm again, looking at DevOps from the inside >>Out and the evolution that you've seen, you talked about the speed of things really accelerating in this last nine months or so. When we think dev ops, we think speed. But one of the things I'd love to get your perspective on is we've talked about in a number of the segments that we've done for this event is cultural change. What are some of the things that you've seen there as, as needing to get, as you said, get things right, but done so quickly to support essential businesses, essential workers. How have you seen that cultural shift? >>Yeah, I think, you know, before test teams for themselves at this part of the software delivery cycle, um, and actually now really our customers are expecting that quality and to deliver for our customers what they want, quality has to be ingrained throughout the life cycle. Obviously, you know, there's lots of buzzwords like shift left. Um, how do we do shift left testing? Um, but for me, that's really instilling quality and given capabilities shared capabilities throughout the life cycle that drive automation, drive improvements. I always say that, you know, you're only as good as your lowest common denominator. And one thing that we were finding on our dev ops journey was that we  would be trying to do certain things quick, we had automated build, automated tests. But if we were taking a weeks to create test scripts, or we were taking weeks to manually craft data, and even then when we had taken so long to do it, that the coverage was quite poor and that led to lots of defects later on in the life cycle, or even in our production environment, we just couldn't afford to do that. >>And actually, focusing on continuous testing over the last nine to 12 months has really given us the ability to deliver quickly across the whole life cycle. And therefore actually go from doing a kind of semi agile kind of thing, where we did the user stories, we did a few of the kind of agile ceremonies, but we weren't really deploying any quicker into production because our stakeholders were scared that we didn't have the same control that we had when we had more waterfall releases. And, you know, when we didn't think of ourselves. So we've done a lot of work on every aspect, um, especially from a testing point of view, every aspect of every activity, rather than just looking at automated tests, you know, whether it is actually creating the test in the first place, whether it's doing security testing earlier in the lot and performance testing in the life cycle, et cetera. So, yeah,  it's been a real key thing that for CT, for us to drive DevOps, >>Talk to me a little bit about your team. What are some of the shifts in terms of expectations that you're experiencing and how your team interacts with the internal folks from pipeline through life cycle? >>Yeah, we've done a lot of work on this. Um, you know, there's a thing that I think people will probably call it a customer experience gap, and it reminds me of a Gilbert cartoon, where we start with the requirements here and you're almost like a Chinese whisper effects and what we deliver is completely different. So we think the testing team or the delivery teams, um, know in our teeth has done a great job. This is what it said in the acceptance criteria, but then our customers are saying, well, actually that's not working this isn't working and there's this kind of gap. Um, we had a great launch this year of agile requirements, it's one of the Broadcom tools. And that was the first time in, ever since I remember actually working within BT, I had customers saying to me, wow, you know, we want more of this. >>We want more projects to have extra requirements design on it because it allowed us to actually work with the business collaboratively. I mean, we talk about collaboration, but how do we actually, you know, do that and have something that both the business and technical people can understand. And we've actually been working with the business , using agile requirements designer to really look at what the requirements are, tease out requirements we hadn't even thought of and making sure that we've got high levels of test coverage. And what we actually deliver at the end of it, not only have we been able to generate tests more quickly, but we've got much higher test coverage and also can more smartly, using the kind of AI within the tool and then some of the other kinds of pipeline tools, actually deliver to choose the right tasks, and actually doing a risk based testing approach. So that's been a great launch this year, but just the start of many kinds of things that we're doing >>Well, what I hear in that, Glynn is a lot of positives that have come out of a very challenging situation. Talk to me about it. And I liked that perspective. This is a very challenging time for everybody in the world, but it sounds like from a collaboration perspective you're right, we talk about that a lot critical with devops. But those challenges there, you guys were able to overcome those pretty quickly. What other challenges did you face and figure out quickly enough to be able to pivot so fast? >>I mean, you talked about culture. You know, BT is like most companies  So it's very siloed. You know we're still trying to work to become closer as a company. So I think there's a lot of challenges around how would you integrate with other tools? How would you integrate with the various different technologies. And BT, we have 58 different IT stacks. That's not systems, that's stacks, all of those stacks can have hundreds of systems. And we're trying to, we've got a drive at the moment, a simplified program where we're trying to you know, reduce that number to 14 stacks. And even then there'll be complexity behind the scenes that we will be challenged more and more as we go forward. How do we actually highlight that to our users? And as an it organization, how do we make ourselves leaner, so that even when we've still got some of that legacy, and we'll never fully get rid of it and that's the kind of trade off that we have to make, how do we actually deal with that and hide that from our users and drive those programs, so we can, as I say, accelerate change,  reduce that kind of waste and that kind of legacy costs out of our business. You know, the other thing as well, I'm sure telecoms is probably no different to insurance or finance. When you take the number of products that we do, and then you combine them, the permutations are tens and hundreds of thousands of products. So we, as a business are trying to simplify, we are trying to do that in an agile way. >>And haven't tried to do agile in the proper way and really actually work at pace, really deliver value. So I think what we're looking more and more at the moment is actually  more value focused. Before we used to deliver changes sometimes into production. Someone had a great idea, or it was a great idea nine months ago or 12 months ago, but actually then we ended up deploying it and then we'd look at the users, the usage of that product or that application or whatever it is, and it's not being used for six months. So we haven't got, you know, the cost of the last 12 months. We certainly haven't gotten room for that kind of waste and, you know, for not really understanding the value of changes that we are doing. So I think that's the most important thing of the moment, it's really taking that waste out. You know, there's lots of focus on things like flow management, what bits of our process are actually taking too long. And we've started on that journey, but we've got a hell of a long way to go. But that involves looking at every aspect of the software delivery cycle. >> Going from, what 58 IT stacks down to 14 or whatever it's going to be, simplifying sounds magical to everybody. It's a big challenge. What are some of the core technology capabilities that you see really as kind of essential for enabling that with this new way that you're working? >>Yeah. I mean, I think we were started on a continuous testing journey, and I think that's just the start. I mean as I say, looking at every aspect of, you know, from a QA point of view is every aspect of what we do. And it's also looking at, you know, we've started to branch into more like AI, uh, AI ops and, you know, really the full life cycle. Um, and you know, that's just a stepping stone to, you know, I think autonomics is the way forward, right. You know, all of this kind of stuff that happens, um, you know, monitoring, uh, you know, watching the systems what's happening in production, how do we feed that back? How'd you get to a point where actually we think about change and then suddenly it's in production safely, or if it's not going to safety, it's automatically backing out. So, you know, it's a very, very long journey, but if we want to, you know, in a world where the pace is in ever-increasing and the demands for the team, and, you know, with the pressures on, at the moment where we're being asked to do things, uh, you know, more efficiently and as lean as possible, we need to be thinking about every part of the process and how we put the kind of stepping stones in place to lead us to a more automated kind of, um, you know, um, the future. >>Do you feel that that planned outcomes are starting to align with what's delivered, given this massive shift that you're experiencing? >>I think it's starting to, and I think, you know, as I say, as we look at more of a value based approach, um, and, um, you know, as I say, print, this was a kind of flow management. I think that that will become ever, uh, ever more important. So, um, I think it starting to people certainly realize that, you know, teams need to work together, you know, the kind of the cousin between business and it, especially as we go to more kind of SAS based solutions, low code solutions, you know, there's not such a gap anymore, actually, some of our business partners that expense to be much more tech savvy. Um, so I think, you know, this is what we have to kind of appreciate what is its role, how do we give the capabilities, um, become more of a centers of excellence rather than actually doing mounds amounts of work. And for me, and from a testing point of view, you know, mounds and mounds of testing, actually, how do we automate that? How do we actually generate that instead of, um, create it? I think that's the kind of challenge going forward. >>What are some, as we look forward, what are some of the things that you would like to see implemented or deployed in the next, say six to 12 months as we hopefully round a corner with this pandemic? >>Yeah, I think, um, you know, certainly for, for where we are as a company from a QA perspective, we are, um, you let's start in bits that we do well, you know, we've started creating, um, continuous delivery and DevOps pipelines. Um, there's still manual aspects of that. So, you know, certainly for me, I I've challenged my team with saying how do we do an automated journey? So if I put a requirement in JIRA or rally or wherever it is and why then click a button and, you know, with either zero touch for one such, then put that into production and have confidence that, that has been done safely and that it works and what happens if it doesn't work. So, you know, that's, that's the next, um, the next few months, that's what our concentration, um, is, is about. But it's also about decision-making, you know, how do you actually understand those value judgments? >>And I think there's lots of the things dev ops, AI ops, kind of that always ask aspects of business operations. I think it's about having the information in one place to make those kinds of decisions. How does it all try and tie it together? As I say, even still with kind of dev ops, we've still got elements within my company where we've got lots of different organizations doing some, doing similar kinds of things, but they're all kind of working in silos. So I think having AI ops as it comes more and more to the fore as we go to cloud, and that's what we need to, you know, we're still very early on in our cloud journey, you know, so we need to make sure the technologies work with cloud as well as you can have, um, legacy systems, but it's about bringing that all together and having a full, visible pipeline, um, that everybody can see and make decisions. >>You said the word confidence, which jumped out at me right away, because absolutely you've got to have be able to have confidence in what your team is delivering and how it's impacting the business and those customers. Last question then for you is how would you advise your peers in a similar situation to leverage technology automation, for example, dev ops, to be able to gain the confidence that they're making the right decisions for their business? >>I think the, the, the, the, the approach that we've taken actually is not started with technology. Um, we've actually taken a human centered design, uh, as a core principle of what we do, um, within the it part of BT. So by using human centered design, that means we talk to our customers, we understand their pain points, we map out their current processes. Um, and then when we mapped out what this process does, it also understand their aspirations as well, you know? Um, and where do they want to be in six months? You know, do they want it to be, um, more agile and, you know, or do they want to, you know, is, is this a part of their business that they want to do one better? We actually then looked at why that's not running well, and then see what, what solutions are out there. >>We've been lucky that, you know, with our partnership, with Broadcom within the payer line, lots of the tools and the PLA have directly answered some of the business's problems. But I think by having those conversations and actually engaging with the business, um, you know, especially if the business hold the purse strings, which in, in, uh, you know, in some companies include not as they do there is that kind of, you know, almost by understanding their, their pain points and then starting, this is how we can solve your problem. Um, is we've, we've tended to be much more successful than trying to impose something and say, well, here's the technology that they don't quite understand. It doesn't really understand how it kind of resonates with their problems. So I think that's the heart of it. It's really about, you know, getting, looking at the data, looking at the processes, looking at where the kind of waste is. >>And then actually then looking at the right solutions. Then, as I say, continuous testing is massive for us. We've also got a good relationship with Apple towards looking at visual AI. And actually there's a common theme through that. And I mean, AI is becoming more and more prevalent. And I know, you know, sometimes what is AI and people have kind of this semantics of, is it true AI or not, but it's certainly, you know, AI machine learning is becoming more and more prevalent in the way that we work. And it's allowing us to be much more effective, be quicker in what we do and be more accurate. And, you know, whether it's finding defects running the right tests or, um, you know, being able to anticipate problems before they're happening in a production environment. >>Well, thank you so much for giving us this sort of insight outlook at dev ops sharing the successes that you're having, taking those challenges, converting them to opportunities and forgiving folks who might be in your shoes, or maybe slightly behind advice enter. They appreciate it. We appreciate your time. >>Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, really. Thank you for inviting me. I have a extremely enjoyed it. So thank you ever so much. >>Excellent. Me too. I've learned a lot for Glenn Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube >>Driving revenue today means getting better, more valuable software features into the hands of your customers. If you don't do it quickly, your competitors as well, but going faster without quality creates risks that can damage your brand destroy customer loyalty and cost millions to fix dev ops from Broadcom is a complete solution for balancing speed and risk, allowing you to accelerate the flow of value while minimizing the risk and severity of critical issues with Broadcom quality becomes integrated across the entire DevOps pipeline from planning to production, actionable insights, including our unique readiness score, provide a three 60 degree view of software quality giving you visibility into potential issues before they become disasters. Dev ops leaders can manage these risks with tools like Canary deployments tested on a small subset of users, or immediately roll back to limit the impact of defects for subsequent cycles. Dev ops from Broadcom makes innovation improvement easier with integrated planning and continuous testing tools that accelerate the flow of value product requirements are used to automatically generate tests to ensure complete quality coverage and tests are easily updated. >>As requirements change developers can perform unit testing without ever leaving their preferred environment, improving efficiency and productivity for the ultimate in shift left testing the platform also integrates virtual services and test data on demand. Eliminating two common roadblocks to fast and complete continuous testing. When software is ready for the CIC CD pipeline, only DevOps from Broadcom uses AI to prioritize the most critical and relevant tests dramatically improving feedback speed with no decrease in quality. This release is ready to go wherever you are in your DevOps journey. Broadcom helps maximize innovation velocity while managing risk. So you can deploy ideas into production faster and release with more confidence from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of dev ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Hi guys. Welcome back. So we have discussed the current state and the near future state of dev ops and how it's going to evolve from three unique perspectives. In this last segment, we're going to open up the floor and see if we can come to a shared understanding of where dev ops needs to go in order to be successful next year. So our guests today are, you've seen them all before Jeffrey Hammond is here. The VP and principal analyst serving CIO is at Forester. We've also Serge Lucio, the GM of Broadcom's enterprise software division and Glenn Martin, the head of QA transformation at BT guys. Welcome back. Great to have you all three together >>To be here. >>All right. So we're very, we're all very socially distanced as we've talked about before. Great to have this conversation. So let's, let's start with one of the topics that we kicked off the forum with Jeff. We're going to start with you spiritual co-location that's a really interesting topic that we've we've uncovered, but how much of the challenge is truly cultural and what can we solve through technology? Jeff, we'll start with you then search then Glen Jeff, take it away. >>Yeah, I think fundamentally you can have all the technology in the world and if you don't make the right investments in the cultural practices in your development organization, you still won't be effective. Um, almost 10 years ago, I wrote a piece, um, where I did a bunch of research around what made high-performance teams, software delivery teams, high performance. And one of the things that came out as part of that was that these teams have a high level of autonomy. And that's one of the things that you see coming out of the agile manifesto. Let's take that to today where developers are on their own in their own offices. If you've got teams where the team itself had a high level of autonomy, um, and they know how to work, they can make decisions. They can move forward. They're not waiting for management to tell them what to do. >>And so what we have seen is that organizations that embraced autonomy, uh, and got their teams in the right place and their teams had the information that they needed to make the right decisions have actually been able to operate pretty well, even as they've been remote. And it's turned out to be things like, well, how do we actually push the software that we've created into production that would become the challenge is not, are we writing the right software? And that's why I think the term spiritual co-location is so important because even though we may be physically distant, we're on the same plane, we're connected from a, from, from a, a shared purpose. Um, you know, surgeon, I worked together a long, long time ago. So it's been what almost 15, 16 years since we were at the same place. And yet I would say there's probably still a certain level of spiritual co-location between us, uh, because of the shared purposes that we've had in the past and what we've seen in the industry. And that's a really powerful tool, uh, to build on. So what do tools play as part of that, to the extent that tools make information available, to build shared purpose on to the extent that they enable communication so that we can build that spiritual co-location to the extent that they reinforce the culture that we want to put in place, they can be incredibly valuable, especially when, when we don't have the luxury of physical locate physical co-location. Okay. That makes sense. >>It does. I shouldn't have introduced us. This last segment is we're all spiritually co-located or it's a surge, clearly you're still spiritually co located with jump. Talk to me about what your thoughts are about spiritual of co-location the cultural impact and how technology can move it forward. >>Yeah. So I think, well, I'm going to sound very similar to Jeff in that respect. I think, you know, it starts with kind of a shared purpose and the other understanding, Oh, individuals teams, uh, contributed to kind of a business outcome, what is our shared goal or shared vision? What's what is it we're trying to achieve collectively and keeping it kind of aligned to that? Um, and so, so it's really starts with that now, now the big challenge, always these over the last 20 years, especially in large organization, there's been specialization of roles and functions. And so we, we all that started to basically measure which we do, uh, on a daily basis using metrics, which oftentimes are completely disconnected from kind of a business outcome or purpose. We, we kind of reverted back to, okay, what is my database all the time? What is my cycle time? >>Right. And, and I think, you know, which we can do or where we really should be focused as an industry is to start to basically provide a lens or these different stakeholders to look at what they're doing in the context of kind of these business outcomes. So, um, you know, probably one of my, um, favorites experience was to actually weakness at one of a large financial institution. Um, you know, Tuesday Golder's unquote development and operations staring at the same data, right. Which was related to, you know, in calming changes, um, test execution results, you know, Coverity coverage, um, official liabilities and all the all ran. It could have a direction level links. And that's when you start to put these things in context and represent that to you in a way that these different stakeholders can, can look at from their different lens. And, uh, and it can start to basically communicate and, and understand have they joined our company to, uh, to, to that kind of common view or objective. >>And Glen, we talked a lot about transformation with you last time. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation and the cultural part, the technology impact? >>Yeah, I mean, I agree with Jeffrey that, you know, um, the people and culture, the most important thing, actually, that's why it's really important when you're transforming to have partners who have the same vision as you, um, who, who you can work with, have the same end goal in mind. And w I've certainly found that with our, um, you know, continuing relationship with Broadcom, what it also does though, is although, you know, tools can accelerate what you're doing and can join consistency. You know, we've seen within simplify, which is BTS flagship transformation program, where we're trying to, as it can, it says simplify the number of systems stacks that we have, the number of products that we have actually at the moment, we've got different value streams within that program who have got organizational silos. We were trying to rewrite, rewrite the wheel, um, who are still doing things manually. >>So in order to try and bring that consistency, we need the right tools that actually are at an enterprise grade, which can be flexible to work with in BT, which is such a complex and very dev, uh, different environments, depending on what area of BT you're in, whether it's a consumer, whether it's a mobile area, whether it's large global or government organizations, you know, we found that we need tools that can, um, drive that consistency, but also flex to Greenfield brownfield kind of technologies as well. So it's really important that as I say, for a number of different aspects, that you have the right partner, um, to drive the right culture, I've got the same vision, but also who have the tool sets to help you accelerate. They can't do that on their own, but they can help accelerate what it is you're trying to do in it. >>And a really good example of that is we're trying to shift left, which is probably a, quite a bit of a buzz phrase in their kind of testing world at the moment. But, you know, I could talk about things like continuous delivery direct to when a ball comes tools and it has many different features to it, but very simply on its own, it allows us to give the visibility of what the teams are doing. And once we have that visibility, then we can talk to the teams, um, around, you know, could they be doing better component testing? Could they be using some virtualized services here or there? And that's not even the main purpose of continuous delivery director, but it's just a reason that tools themselves can just give greater visibility of have much more intuitive and insightful conversations with other teams and reduce those organizational silos. >>Thanks, Ben. So we'd kind of sum it up, autonomy collaboration tools that facilitate that. So let's talk now about metrics from your perspectives. What are the metrics that matter? Jeff, >>I'm going to go right back to what Glenn said about data that provides visibility that enables us to, to make decisions, um, with shared purpose. And so business value has to be one of the first things that we look at. Um, how do we assess whether we have built something that is valuable, you know, that could be sales revenue, it could be net promoter score. Uh, if you're not selling what you've built, it could even be what the level of reuse is within your organization or other teams picking up the services, uh, that you've created. Um, one of the things that I've begun to see organizations do is to align value streams with customer journeys and then to align teams with those value streams. So that's one of the ways that you get to a shared purpose, cause we're all trying to deliver around that customer journey, the value with it. >>And we're all measured on that. Um, there are flow metrics which are really important. How long does it take us to get a new feature out from the time that we conceive it to the time that we can run our first experiments with it? There are quality metrics, um, you know, some of the classics or maybe things like defect, density, or meantime to response. Um, one of my favorites came from a, um, a company called ultimate software where they looked at the ratio of defects found in production to defects found in pre production and their developers were in fact measured on that ratio. It told them that guess what quality is your job to not just the test, uh, departments, a group, the fourth level that I think is really important, uh, in, in the current, uh, situation that we're in is the level of engagement in your development organization. >>We used to joke that we measured this with the parking lot metric helpful was the parking lot at nine. And how full was it at five o'clock. I can't do that anymore since we're not physically co-located, but what you can do is you can look at how folks are delivering. You can look at your metrics in your SCM environment. You can look at, uh, the relative rates of churn. Uh, you can look at things like, well, are our developers delivering, uh, during longer periods earlier in the morning, later in the evening, are they delivering, uh, you know, on the weekends as well? Are those signs that we might be heading toward a burnout because folks are still running at sprint levels instead of marathon levels. Uh, so all of those in combination, uh, business value, uh, flow engagement in quality, I think form the backbone of any sort of, of metrics, uh, a program. >>The second thing that I think you need to look at is what are we going to do with the data and the philosophy behind the data is critical. Um, unfortunately I see organizations where they weaponize the data and that's completely the wrong way to look at it. What you need to do is you need to say, you need to say, how is this data helping us to identify the blockers? The things that aren't allowing us to provide the right context for people to do the right thing. And then what do we do to remove those blockers, uh, to make sure that we're giving these autonomous teams the context that they need to do their job, uh, in a way that creates the most value for the customers. >>Great advice stuff, Glenn, over to your metrics that matter to you that really make a big impact. And, and, and also how do you measure quality kind of following onto the advice that Jeff provided? >>That's some great advice. Actually, he talks about value. He talks about flow. Both of those things are very much on my mind at the moment. Um, but there was this, I listened to a speaker, uh, called me Kirsten a couple of months ago. It taught very much around how important flow management is and removing, you know, and using that to remove waste, to understand in terms of, you know, making software changes, um, what is it that's causing us to do it longer than we need to. So where are those areas where it takes long? So I think that's a very important thing for us. It's even more basic than that at the moment, we're on a journey from moving from kind of a waterfall to agile. Um, and the problem with moving from waterfall to agile is with waterfall, the, the business had a kind of comfort that, you know, everything was tested together and therefore it's safer. >>Um, and with agile, there's that kind of, you know, how do we make sure that, you know, if we're doing things quick and we're getting stuff out the door that we give that confidence, um, that that's ready to go, or if there's a risk that we're able to truly articulate what that risk is. So there's a bit about release confidence, um, and some of the metrics around that and how, how healthy those releases are, and actually saying, you know, we spend a lot of money, um, um, an investment setting up our teams, training our teams, are we actually seeing them deliver more quickly and are we actually seeing them deliver more value quickly? So yeah, those are the two main things for me at the moment, but I think it's also about, you know, generally bringing it all together, the dev ops, you know, we've got the kind of value ops AI ops, how do we actually bring that together to so we can make quick decisions and making sure that we are, um, delivering the biggest bang for our buck, absolutely biggest bang for the buck, surge, your thoughts. >>Yeah. So I think we all agree, right? It starts with business metrics, flow metrics. Um, these are kind of the most important metrics. And ultimately, I mean, one of the things that's very common across a highly functional teams is engagements, right? When, when you see a team that's highly functioning, that's agile, that practices DevOps every day, they are highly engaged. Um, that that's, that's definitely true. Now the, you know, back to, I think, uh, Jeff's point on weaponization of metrics. One of the key challenges we see is that, um, organizations traditionally have been kind of, uh, you know, setting up benchmarks, right? So what is a good cycle time? What is a good lead time? What is a good meantime to repair? The, the problem is that this is very contextual, right? It varies. It's going to vary quite a bit, depending on the nature of application and system. >>And so one of the things that we really need to evolve, um, as an industry is to understand that it's not so much about those flow metrics is about our, these four metrics ultimately contribute to the business metric to the business outcome. So that's one thing. The second aspect, I think that's oftentimes misunderstood is that, you know, when you have a bad cycle time or, or, or what you perceive as being a buy cycle time or better quality, the problem is oftentimes like all, do you go and explore why, right. What is the root cause of this? And I think one of the key challenges is that we tend to focus a lot of time on metrics and not on the eye type patterns, which are pretty common across the industry. Um, you know, if you look at, for instance, things like lead time, for instance, it's very common that, uh, organizational boundaries are going to be a key contributor to badly time. >>And so I think that there is, you know, the only the metrics there is, I think a lot of work that we need to do in terms of classifying, descend type patterns, um, you know, back to you, Jeff, I think you're one of the cool offers of waterscrumfall as a, as, as a key pattern, the industry or anti-spatter. Um, but waterscrumfall right is a key one, right? And you will detect that through kind of a defect arrival rates. That's where that looks like an S-curve. And so I think it's beyond kind of the, the metrics is what do you do with those metrics? >>Right? I'll tell you a search. One of the things that is really interesting to me in that space is I think those of us had been in industry for a long time. We know the anti-patterns cause we've seen them in our career maybe in multiple times. And one of the things that I think you could see tooling do is perhaps provide some notification of anti-patterns based on the telemetry that comes in. I think it would be a really interesting place to apply, uh, machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques. Um, so hopefully something that we'd see in the future with dev ops tools, because, you know, as a manager that, that, you know, may be only a 10 year veteran or 15 year veteran, you may be seeing these anti-patterns for the first time. And it would sure be nice to know what to do, uh, when they start to pop up, >>That would right. Insight, always helpful. All right, guys, I would like to get your final thoughts on this. The one thing that you believe our audience really needs to be on the lookout for and to put on our agendas for the next 12 months, Jeff will go back to you. Okay. >>I would say look for the opportunities that this disruption presents. And there are a couple that I see, first of all, uh, as we shift to remote central working, uh, we're unlocking new pools of talent, uh, we're, it's possible to implement, uh, more geographic diversity. So, so look to that as part of your strategy. Number two, look for new types of tools. We've seen a lot of interest in usage of low-code tools to very quickly develop applications. That's potentially part of a mainstream strategy as we go into 2021. Finally, make sure that you embrace this idea that you are supporting creative workers that agile and dev ops are the peanut butter and chocolate to support creative, uh, workers with algorithmic capabilities, >>Peanut butter and chocolate Glen, where do we go from there? What are, what's the one silver bullet that you think folks to be on the lookout for now? I, I certainly agree that, um, low, low code is, uh, next year. We'll see much more low code we'd already started going, moving towards a more of a SAS based world, but low code also. Um, I think as well for me, um, we've still got one foot in the kind of cow camp. Um, you know, we'll be fully trying to explore what that means going into the next year and exploiting the capabilities of cloud. But I think the last, um, the last thing for me is how do you really instill quality throughout the kind of, um, the, the life cycle, um, where, when I heard the word scrum fall, it kind of made me shut it because I know that's a problem. That's where we're at with some of our things at the moment we need to get beyond that. We need >>To be releasing, um, changes more frequently into production and actually being a bit more brave and having the confidence to actually do more testing in production and go straight to production itself. So expect to see much more of that next year. Um, yeah. Thank you. I haven't got any food analogies. Unfortunately we all need some peanut butter and chocolate. All right. It starts to take us home. That's what's that nugget you think everyone needs to have on their agendas? >>That's interesting. Right. So a couple of days ago we had kind of a latest state of the DevOps report, right? And if you read through the report, it's all about the lost city, but it's all about sweet. We still are receiving DevOps as being all about speed. And so to me, the key advice is in order to create kind of a spiritual collocation in order to foster engagement, we have to go back to what is it we're trying to do collectively. We have to go back to tie everything to the business outcome. And so for me, it's absolutely imperative for organizations to start to plot their value streams, to understand how they're delivering value into aligning everything they do from a metrics to deliver it, to flow to those metrics. And only with that, I think, are we going to be able to actually start to really start to align kind of all these roles across the organizations and drive, not just speed, but business outcomes, >>All about business outcomes. I think you guys, the three of you could write a book together. So I'll give you that as food for thought. Thank you all so much for joining me today and our guests. I think this was an incredibly valuable fruitful conversation, and we appreciate all of you taking the time to spiritually co-located with us today, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you for Jeff Hammond serves Lucio and Glen Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching the broad cops Broadcom dev ops virtual forum.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> The ascendancy of massive clouds underscored the limits of human labor. People, they simply don't scale at the pace of today's technology. And this trend created an automation mandate for IT which has been further accentuated by the pandemic. The world is witnessing the build-out of a massively distributed system that comprises on-prem apps, public clouds and edge computing. The challenge we face is how to go from managing things you can see and touch to cost effectively managing, securing and scaling these vast systems. It requires an automation first mindset. Hello, everyone. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to AnsibleFest 2020. We have a great panel to wrap up this show. With me are our three excellent guests and CUBE alums. Ashesh Badani is the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Ashesh, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me on again, Dave. >> Stefanie Chiras is Vice President and General Manager of the RHEL Business Unit and my sports buddy. Stefanie, glad to see you back in the New England area. I knew you'd be back. >> Yeah, good to see you, Dave. Thanks for having us today. >> You're very welcome. And then finally, Joe Fitzgerald, longtime CUBE alum, Vice President and General Manager of the Management Business Unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you. >> Hey, Dave, good to be here with you. >> Ashesh, I'm going to start with you. Lay out the big picture for us. So how do you see this evolution to what we sometimes talk about as hybrid cloud, but really truly a hybrid cloud environment across these three platforms that I just talked about? >> Yeah, let me start off by echoing something that most of your viewers have probably heard in the past. There's always this notion about developers, developers, developers. And you know, that still holds true. We aren't going away from that anymore. Developers are the new kingmakers. But increasingly, as the scope and complexity of applications and services that are deployed in this heterogeneous environment increases, it's more and more about automation, automation, automation. In the times we live in today, even, you know, before dealing with the crises that, you know, we have, just the sheer magnitude of requirements that are being placed on enterprises and expectations from customers require us to be more and more focused on automating tasks which humans just can't keep up with. So you know, as we look forward, this conversation here today, you know, what Ansible's doing, you know, is squarely aimed at dealing with this complexity that we all face. >> So Stefanie, I wonder if you could talk about what it's going to take to implement what I call this true hybrid cloud, this connection and management of this environment. RHEL is obviously a key piece of that. That's going to be your business unit, but take us through your thoughts there. >> Yeah, so I'm kind of building on what Ashesh said. When we look at this hybrid cloud world, right, which now hybrid is much more than it was considered five years ago. It used to be hybrid was on-prem versus off-prem. Now, hybrid translates to many layers in the stack. It can be VMs hybrid with containers. It can be on-prem with off-prem and clearly with edge involved, as well. Whenever you start to require the ability to bridge across these, that's where we focus on having a platform that allows you to access sort of all of those and be able to deploy your applications in a simple way. When I look at what customers require, it's all about speed of deploying applications, right, build, deploy and run your applications. It's about stability, which is clearly where we're focused on RHEL being able to provide that stability across multiple types of hybrid deployment models. And third is all about scale. It is absolutely all about scale and that's across multiple ranges in hybrid, be it on-prem, off-prem, edge and that's where all of this automation comes in, so to me, it's really about where do you make those strategic decisions that allow you to choose, right, for the flexibility that you need and still be able to deploy applications with speed, have that stability, resiliency, and be able to scale. >> So Joe, let's talk about your swim lane and it's weird to even use that term, right? 'Cause as Stefanie just said, we're kind of breaking down all these silos that we talk in terms of platform, but how do you see this evolving, and specifically, what's the contribution from a management perspective? >> Right, so Stefanie and Ashesh talked about sort of speed, scale and complexity. Right, people are trying to deploy things faster or larger scale, and oh, by the way, keep everything highly available and secure. That's a challenge, right? And so, you know, interestingly enough, Red Hat, about five years ago, we recognized that automation was going to be a problem as people were moving into open hybrid clouds, which we've been working with our customers for years on. And so we acquired this small company called Ansible, which had some really early emerging technology, all open source, right, to do automation. And what we've done over the past five years is we've really amplified that automation and amplified the innovation in that community to be able to provide automation across a wide array of domains that you need to automate, right, and to be able to plug that in to all the different processes that people need in order to be able to go faster, but to track, manage, secure and govern these kind of environments. So we made this bet years ago and it's paying off for Red Hat in very big ways. >> I mean, no doubt about it. I mean, when you guys bought Ansible, so it wasn't clear that it was going to be the clear leader. It is now. I mean, it's pulled ahead of Chef, Puppet. You saw, you know, VMware bought Salt, but I mean, Ansible very clearly has, based on our surveys, the greatest market momentum. We're going to talk about that. I know some of the other analysts have chimed in on this, but let me come back to this notion of on-prem and cloud and edge and this is complicated. I mean, the edge, it's kind of its own island, isn't it? I mean, you got the IT and the OT schism, so maybe you could talk a little bit about how you see those worlds coming together, the cloud, the on-prem, the edge. Maybe Stefanie, you can start. >> Yeah, I think the magic, Dave, is going to happen when it's not its own island, right, as we start to see this world driven by data cause the spread of a data center to be really dis-aggregated and allow that compute to move out closer to the data, the magic happens when it doesn't feel like an island, right, that's the beauty and the promise of hybrid. So when you start to look at what can you provide that is consistent that serves as a single language that you can talk to from on-prem, off-prem and edge, you know, it all comes down to, for us, having a platform that you can build once and deploy across all of those, but the real delicacy with edge is there are some different deployment models. I think that comes into deployment space and we're clearly getting feedback from customers. We're working on some capabilities where edge requires some different deployment models in the ways you update, et cetera, and thanks to all of you out there who are working with us upstream in order to deliver that. And I think the second place where it's unique is in this ability to manage and automate out at the edge, but our goal is certainly at our platform levels, whether it be on RHEL, whether it be on OpenShift to provide that consistent platform that allows you that ease of deployment, then you got to manage and automate it and that's where the whole Ansible and the ecosystem really plays in. You need that ecosystem and that's always what I love about AnsibleFest is this community comes together and it's a vibrant community, for sure. >> Well, I mean, Ashesh, you guys are betting big on this and I often think of the cloud is just this one big cloud. You got the on-prem cloud, you got the public clouds. Edge becomes just an extension of that cloud. Is that how you think about it and what is it actually going to take to make that edge not an island? >> Yeah, great point, Dave, and that's exactly how we think about it. We've always thought about our vision of the cloud as being a platform and abstraction that spans all the underlying infrastructure that the user can take advantage of, so if it happens to reside in a data center, some in a private cloud running off a data center, more increasingly in the public cloud setting, and as Stefanie called out, we're also starting to see edge deployments come in. We're seeing, you know, big build-outs in the work we're doing with telecom providers from a 5G perspective that's helping drive that. We're seeing, if you will, IOT-like opportunities with, let's say, the automotive sector or some in the retail sector, as well. And so this fabric, if you will, needs to span this entire set of deployment that a customer will take advantage of. And Joe started touching on this a little bit, right, with this notion of the speed, scale and complexity, so we see this platform needing to expand to all these footprints that customers are using. At the same time, the requirements that they have, even when they're going out the edge, is the same with regard to what they see in the data center and the public cloud, so putting all that together really is our sweet spot. That's our focus. And to the point you're making, Dave, that's where we're making a huge bet across all of Red Hat. >> So I mentioned, you know, some of our research and I do these breaking analysis segments every week and recently I was digging into cloud and specifically was interested in hybrid and multi. And you know, hybrid been I think pretty well understood for awhile. Multi I think was a lot of, you know, a lot of talk, but it's becoming real and the data really shows that. It shows OpenShift and Ansible have momentum. I mentioned that before. Yeah, you know, obviously VMware is there, but clearly Red Hat is well positioned specifically in multicloud and hybrid. And I know some of the other analyst firms have picked up on this. What are you guys seeing in the market? Maybe Joe, you can chime in and Ashesh, you can maybe add some color. >> Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of fashion, right, around hybrid and multicloud today, so every vendor is jumping on with multicloud storing. And you know, a lot of the vendors' strategies are, pick my solution and vertically use my stuff in the public cloud on-premise, maybe even at the edge, right, and you'll be fine. And you know, obviously customers don't like lock-in. They like to be able to take advantage of the best services, availability, security, different things that are available in each of these different clouds, right? So there is a strong preference for hybrid and multicloud. Red Hat is sort of the Switzerland of hybrid and multicloud because we enable you to run your workloads across all these different substrates, whether it's in public clouds, multiple, right, into the data center and physical, virtual, bare metal, out to the edge and edge is not a single homogeneous, you know, set of hardware or even implementation. It varies a lot by vertical, so you have a lot of diversity, right? And so Red Hat is really good at helping provide the platforms like OpenShift and RHEL that are going to provide that consistency across those different environments or also in the case of Ansible to provide automation that's going to match the physics of management and automation that are required across each of those different environments. Trust me, managing or automating something at the edge and with very small footprint of some device across the constraint network is very, very different than managing things in a public cloud or in a data center and that's where I think Red Hat is really focused and that's our sweet spot, helping people manage those environments. >> And Ashesh, you guys have obviously put a lot of effort there. If you could maybe comment. >> Yeah, I was just going to say, Dave, I'll add just really quickly to what Joe said. He said it well. But the thing I will add is the way for us to succeed here is to follow the user, follow the customer. Right, instead of us just coming out with regard to what we believe the path to be, you know, we're really kind of working closely with the actual customers that we have. So for example, recently been working with a large water utility in Italy, but they're thinking about, you know, the world that they live in and how can they go off and, you know, have kiosks that are spread throughout Italy, able to provide reports with regard to the quality of the water that's available, as well as other services to all their citizens. But it's really interesting use case for us to go off and pursue because in some sense, you can ask yourself, well, is that public cloud? Are they going to take advantage of those services? Is that, you know, private cloud? Is that data center, is that IOT, is that edge? At a certain point in time, what you've got to think about is, well, we've got to provide integrated end-to-end solution that spans all of these different worlds, and so as long as I think we keep that focus, as long as we make sure our North Star is really what the user's trying to do, what problem they're trying to solve, I think we'll come out just fine on the other side of this. >> So I'd love to get all your thoughts, all three of you, on just what's going on in containers, generally, Kubernetes, specifically. I mean, everybody knows it's a hot space and the data shows that it is maturing, but it's amazing to me how much momentum it still has. I mean, it's like the new shiny toy, but it's everywhere and so it's able to sort of maintain that velocity and it's really becoming the go-to cloud native development platform, so the question is how is Red Hat, you know, helping your customers connect OpenShift to the rest of their IT infrastructure, platforms, their processes, the tools. I mean, who wants to start? I'd love to hear from all three of you. Ashesh, why don't you kick it off and then we'll just go left to right. >> So Dave, we've spoken to you and to folks the CUBE, as well, other for many years on this. We've made a huge investment in the Kubernetes market and been one of the earliest to do that and we continue to believe in the promise that it delivers to users, this notion of being able to have an environment that customers can use regardless of the underlying choices that they make. Here's an extremely powerful one, it's truly an open source, right? This is key to, you know, what we do. Increasingly, what we're working on is to ensure that one, if you make a commitment to Kubernetes and increasingly we see lots of customers around the world doing that, that we ensure that we're working closely, that our entire portfolio helps support that. So if you're going to make a choice with regard to Kubernetes base deployment, we help support you running it yourself wherever it is that you choose to run it, we help support you whether you choose to have us manage on your behalf and then also make sure we're providing an entire portfolio of services, both within Red Hat as well as from third parties so that you have the most productive, integrated experience possible. >> Okay, and Stefanie, loved your point of view on this, and Joe, I'd love to understand how you're bridging kind of the Ansible and Kubernetes communities, but Stefanie, why don't you chime in first? >> Yeah, I'll quickly add to what Ashesh said and talked about well on really the promise and the value of containers, but particularly from a RHEL perspective, we have taken all our capabilities and knowledge in the Linux space and we have taken that to apply it to OpenShift, right, because Kubernetes and containers is just another way to deploy Linux, so making sure that that underpinning is stable, secure and resilient and tied to an ecosystem, right? An ecosystem of various architectures, an ecosystem of ISVs and tooling, right? We've pulled that together and everything we've done in Linux for, you know, over decades now at Red Hat and we've put that into that customer experience around OpenShift to deploy containers, so we've really built, it has been a portfolio-wide effort, as Ashesh alluded to, and of course, it passes over to Ansible as well with Joe's portfolio. >> Yeah, we talked about this upfront, Joe. The communities are so crucial, so how are you bridging those Ansible and Kubernetes communities? What's your thought on that? >> Well, a quick note about those communities. So you know, OpenShift is built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects. Kubernetes is number seven in the top 10 open source projects based on the number of contributors. Turns out Ansible is number nine, right? So if you think about it, these are two incredibly robust communities, right? On the one hand, building the container platform in Kubernetes and in the other around Ansible and automation. It turns out that as the need for this digital acceleration and building these container-based applications comes along, there's a lot of other things that have to be done when you deploy container-based applications, whether it's infrastructure automation, right, to expand and manage and automate the infrastructure that you're running your container-based applications on, creating more clusters, you know, configuring storage, network, you know, counts, things like that, but also connecting to other systems in the environment that need to be integrated with around, you know, ITSM or systems of record, change management, inventory, cost, things like that, so what we've done is we've integrated Ansible, right, in a very powerful way with OpenShift through our advanced cluster management capability, which allows us to provide an easy way to instrument Ansible during critical points, whether it's you're deploying new clusters out there or you're deploying a new version of an application or a new application for the first time, whether you're checking policy, right, to ensure that, you know, the thing is secure and that, you know, you can govern these environments, right, that you're relying on. So we've really now tied together two sort of de facto standards, OpenShift built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects and then Ansible, or Red Hat, has taken this innovation in the community and created these certified content collections, platforms and capabilities that people can actually build and rely on and know that it's going to work. >> Ashesh, I mean, Red Hat has earned the right, really, to play in both the cloud native world and of course the traditional infrastructure world, but I'm interested in what you're seeing there, how you're bringing those two worlds together. Are they still, you know, largely separate? Are you seeing traditional IT? I mean, you're certainly seeing them lean in to more and more cloud native, but what are you guys doing specifically to kind of bring those worlds together? >> Yeah, increasingly it's really hard to be able to separate out those worlds, right? So in the past, we used to call it shadow IT. There really is no shadow IT anymore, right? This is IT. So we've embraced that completely. You know, our take on that is to say there are certain applications that are going to be appropriate for being run in a data center a certain way. There are certain other workloads that'll find their way appropriate for the public cloud. We want to make sure we're meeting them across, but what we want to do is constantly introduce technologies to help support the choices customers make. What do I mean by that? Let me give a couple examples. One is, you know, we can say customers have VMs that are based out in specific environments and they can only run as VMs. That code can't be containerized for a variety of reasons, right? You know, hard to re-architect that, don't have the funds, you know, have certain security compliance reasons. Well, what if we could take those VMs and then have them be run in containers in a native fashion? Wouldn't that be extremely powerful value proposition to run containers and then VMs as containers sort of side by side with Kubernetes orchestrating them all. So that's a capability we call open source virtualization. We've introduced that and made that generally available within our platform. Another one, which I think Joe starting to touch on a little bit here, is both around this notion of Ansible, as well as advanced cluster management. And say, once technologies like Ansible are familiar to our customers, how about if we find ways to introduce things like the operator framework to help support people's use of Ansible and introduce technologies like advanced cluster management, which allows for us to say, well, regardless of where you run your clusters, whether you run your Kubernetes clusters on premise, you run them in the cloud, right, we can imagine a consistent fashion and manage, you know, health and policy and compliance of applications across that entire state. So David, question's extremely good one, right, but what we are trying to do is try to be able to say, you know, we are going to just span those two worlds and provide as many tools as possible to ensure that customers feel like, you know, the shift, if you will, or the move between traditional enterprise software application development and the more modern cloud native can be bridged as seamlessly as possible. >> Yeah, Joe, we heard a lot of this at AnsibleFest, so the ACM as a key component of your innovation, and frankly, your competitive posture. Anything you would add to what Ashesh just shared? >> Well, I think that one of the things that Red Hat is really good at is we take management and automation as sort of an intrinsic part of what needs to go on. It's not an afterthought. You just don't go build something, go, "Oh I need management," go out and, you know, go get something, right, so we've been working on, sort of automation and management for many, many years, right, so we build it in concert with these platforms, right, and we understand the physics of these different environments, so we're very focused on that from inception, as opposed to an afterthought when people sort of paint themselves into a corner or have management challenges they can't deal with. >> There's a lot of analogs in our business, isn't there? Management is a bolt-on and security is a bolt-on. It just doesn't work that well and certainly doesn't scale. Stefanie, I want to come back to you and I want to come back to the edge. We hear a lot of people talking about extending their deployments to the edge in the future. I mean, you look at what IBM's doing. They're essentially betting its business on RHEL and OpenShift and betting that its customers are going to do the same as well are you. Maybe talk about, you know, what you're doing to specifically extend RHEL to the edge. >> Yeah, Dave, so we've been looking at this space consistent with our strategy, as Ashesh talked about, right? Our goal is to make sure that it all looks and feels the same and provides one single Linux experience. We've been building on a number of those aspects for quite some time, things like being able to deal with heterogeneous architectures, as an example, being able to deal with, you know, having Arm components and x86 components and power components and being able to leverage all of that from multiple vendors and being able to deploy. Those are things we've been focused on for a long time and now when you move into the space of the edge, certainly we're seeing, you know, essentially data center level hardware move out to be dis-aggregated and dispersed as they move it closer to the data and where that's coming in and where the analysis needs to be done, but some of those foundational things that we've been working on for years starts to pay off because the edge tends to be more heterogeneous all the way from an architecture level to an application level, so now we're seeing some asks. We've been working upstream in order to pull in some features that drive capabilities around specifically updating, deploying those updates, doing rollbacks and things like that, so we're focused on that. But really, it's about pulling together the capabilities of having multiple architectures, dealing with heterogeneous infrastructure out there at the edge, being able to reliably deploy it even when, for example, we have customers who they deploy their hardware and they can't touch it for years. How do they make sure that that's out there in a stable environment that they can count on? And then, you know, adding in things like containerization. We talked about the magic of that, being able to deploy an application consistently and being able to deploy a single container out there to the edge. We're thinking about it all the way from the architecture up to how the application gets deployed and it's going to take the whole portfolio to do that as you need to manage it, as you need to deploy containers, so it's a focus across the company for how we deal with that. >> And as we were talking about before, you know, it takes a village. You know that bromide, but it does, requires an ecosystem of jobs. I mean, there's some real technical challenges in R&D that has to happen. I mean, you've got to be, you know, you're talking about cloud native in all three different clouds, and you know, and not just the big three, but other clouds and then bringing that to the edge, so there's some clear technical challenges, but there's also some business challenges out there. So you know, what are you seeing in that regard? You know, what are some of those things that you hope to solve by bridging that gap? >> Well, I think one of the things we're trying to do and I'm focused on the management and automation side is to provide a common set of management tooling of automation, right, and I think Ansible fits that quite well. So for the past five years since Ansible's been part of Red Hat, we've expanded from, you know, they started off initially doing configuration management, right? We've expanded to include, you know, network and storage and security, now edge. At AnsibleFest, we demonstrated things like serverless event-driven automation, right, building an OpenShift serverless in Knative. We're trying to expand the use cases for Ansible so that there's a simplicity, there's a tool reduction, right, across all these environments and you don't have to go deal with nine vendors, and you know, 17 different tools to try to manage each element here to be able to provide a common set. It reduces complexity, cost and allows skills to be able to be reused across these different areas. It's going to all be about digital acceleration, right, and reducing that complexity. And one last comment. One of the reasons we bought Ansible years ago is the architecture, it's agent-less. Many of our competitors that you hear, the first thing they want to do is go deploy an agent somewhere and that creates its own ongoing burden of, do I have the latest version of the agent? Is it secure? Does it fit on the device? As Stefanie mentioned, is there a version that fits on the architecture the device is running on? It starts getting really, really complicated. So Ansible is just simple, elegant, agent-less. We've expanded the domains we can automate with it and we've expanded sort of the modality. How can I call it? User, driven by an event, as part of some life cycle management, app deployment, Ansible plugs right in. >> Well, Joe, you can tell you're a management guy, right? Agents, another thing that has to be managed. You just laundry list of stuff. (laughs) I want to come back to this notion Joe just touched on, this digital transformation. They say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, COVID broke everything. And I got to say, I mean, all the talk about digital transformation over the last, you know, several years, yes, it was certainly happening, but there was also a lot of lip service going on and now if you're not digital, you're out of business. And so, you know, given everything that we've seen in the last, you know, whatever, 150, 200 days or so, what's the impact that you're seeing on customers' digital transformation initiatives, and you know, what is Red Hat doing to respond? Maybe Ashesh, you could start and we can get feedback from the others. >> Yeah, David, it's an unfortunate thing to say, right, but there's that meme going around with regard to who's responsible for digital transformation and it's a little bit of I guess gallows humor to call it COVID, but we're increasingly seeing that customers and the journey that they're on is one that they haven't really gotten off, even with this, if you will, change of environment that's come about. So projects that we've seen in play, you know, are still underway. We've seen acceleration, actually, in some places with regard to making services more easily accessible. Anyone who's invested in hybrid cloud or public cloud is seeing huge value with regard to being able to consume services remotely, being able to do this on demand and that's a big part of the value proposition, you know, that comes forward. And increasingly what we're trying to do is try to say, how can we engage and assist you in these times, right? So our services team, for example, has transformed to be able to help customers remotely. Our support team has gone off and work more and more with customers. For a company like Red Hat, that hasn't been completely, if you will, difficult thing to do mostly because we've been so used to working in a distributed fashion, working remotely with our customers, so that's not a challenge in itself, but making sure customers understand that this is really a critical journey for them to go on and how we can kind of help them, you know, walk through that has been good and we're finding that that message really resonates. Right, so both Stefanie and Joe talked a little bit about, you know, how essentially our entire portfolio is now built around, you know, ensuring that if you'd like to consume on demand, we can help support you, if you'd like to consume in a traditional fashion, we can help you. That amount of flexibility that we provide to customers is really coming to bear at this point in time. >> So maybe we could wrap with, we haven't really dropped any customer names. Stefanie and Joe and Ashesh, I wonder if you have any stories you can share or, you know, customer examples that we could close on that are exciting to you this year. >> So I can start, if that's okay. >> Please. >> So an area that I find super interesting from a customer perspective that we're increasingly seeing more and more customers go down is sheer interest in, if you will, kind of diversity of use cases that we're seeing, right? So we see this, for example, in automotive, right? So whether it's a BMW or a Volkswagen, we see this now in health care with the ACA, in we'll say a little bit more traditional industries like energy with Exxon or Schlumberger around increasingly embrace of AIML, right? So artificial machine learning, if you will, advanced analytics being much more proactive with regard to how they can take data that's coming in, adjust it, be able to make sense of the patterns and then be able to, you know, have some action that has real business impact. So this whole trend towards, you know, AIML workloads that they can run is extremely powerful. We work very closely with Nvidia, as well, and we're seeing a lot of interest, for example, in being able to run a Kubernetes-based platform, support Nvidia GPUs for specific class workloads. There's a whole bunch of customers, people in financial services that, you know, this is a rich area of interest. You know, we've seen great use cases for example around grid with Deutsche Bank. And so, to me, I'm personally really excited to see kind of that embrace the PC from our customers regard to saying there's a whole lot of data that's out there. You know, how can we essentially use all of these tools that we have in place? You know, we talk about containers, microservices, DevOps, you know, all of this and then put it to bear to really put to work and get business value. >> Great, thank you for that, Ashesh. Stefanie, Joe, Stefanie, anything you want to add or final thoughts? >> Yeah, just one thing to add and I think Ashesh talked to a whole number across industry verticals and customers. But I think the one thing that I've seen through COVID is that if nothing else, it's taught us that change is the only constant and I think, you know, our whole vision of open hybrid cloud is how to enable customers to be flexible and do what they need to do when they need to do it, wherever they want to deploy, however they want to build. We provide them some consistency, right, across that as they make those changes and I think as I've worked with customers here through since the beginning of COVID, it's been amazing to me the diversity of how they've had to respond. Some have doubled down in the data center, some have doubled down on going public cloud and to me, this is the proof of the strategy that we're on, right, that open hybrid cloud is about delivering flexibility, and boy, nothing's taught us the need for flexibility like COVID has recently, so I think there's a lot more to do. I think pulling together the platforms and the automation is what is going to enable the ability to do that in a simple fashion. >> So Joe, you get the final word. I mean, AnsibleFest 2020, I mean, it's weird, right? But that's the way these events are, all virtual. Hopefully, next year we got a shot at being face to face, but bring us home, please. >> Yeah, I got to tell ya, having, you know, 20,000 or so of your closest friends get together to talk about automation for a couple of days is just amazing. That just shows you sort of the power of it. You know, we have a lot of customers this week at AnsibleFest telling you their story, you know, CarMax and ExxonMobil, you know, BlueCross BlueShield. I mean, there's a number across all different verticals, globally, Cepsa from Europe. I mean, just an incredibly, you know, diverse array of customers and use cases. I would encourage people to look at some of the customer presentations that were on at AnsibleFest, listen to the customer telling you what they're doing with Ansible, deploying their networks, deploying their apps, managing their infrastructure, container apps, traditional apps, connecting it, moving faster. They have amazing stories. I encourage people to go look. >> Well, guys, thanks so much for helping us wrap up AnsibleFest 2020. It was really a great discussion. You guys have always been awesome CUBE guests. Really appreciate the partnership and so thank you. >> Thanks a lot, Dave. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks, Dave. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2020. We're not face-to-face this year, we're in virtual remote mode. This is theCUBE virtual and obviously it's AnsibleFest 2020 virtual. We've got a great panel of experts and leaders at Red Hat and Ansible. I want to introduce them. Dave Lindquist, general manager and vice president of engineering of hybrid cloud management at Red Hat. Joe Fernandes, vice president and general manager of the Core Cloud platforms at Red Hat. And Tom Anderson, vice President at Red Hat, Ansible Automation Platform, the big news and feature of this event. Tom, great to see you, Joe and David, thanks for coming on. >> Great to be here. >> Every year I love talking about Red Hat because I remember going back a few years ago, Arvind from IBM was on at Red Hat Summit in San Francisco, and you can see the twinkle in his eye. This was three, four years ago. Cloud native was really gearing up and now it's kind of mainstream. Last year at AnsibleFest, all the buzz was collaboration, collections, and you can start to see that integration piece kicking in, and this year at the event, the big story is the same. More collections, more integrations, a lot of collaboration around code. Content equals code. So it really points to the trend with Kubernetes of multi-cloud, multi-cluster. So the first question for you guys is, why would anyone want to deploy multiple clusters simultaneously and why is multi-cluster such a big deal? Tom, we'll start with you. >> Great, okay, yeah. So why is multi-cluster such a big deal? Basically, Kubernetes and our OpenShift container platform have now become a strategic part of our customers' environments, of their infrastructure for building and deploying cloud native applications on. And as becoming a strategic part of that, when you're deploying production applications you're going to need all kinds of things like scale out, redundancy, cloud location for access to different cloud provider locations for application requirements and whatnot. So there are a bunch of requirements for why customers would deploy OpenShift in a multi-cluster way. And maybe I'll turn it over to Joe Fernandes a little bit 'cause he's got a lot of background on the OpenShift side of this. >> Joe, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, thanks, Tom. Yeah, so I mean, as Tom mentions, a number of reasons why customers may deploy or need to deploy more than one Kubernetes cluster. So within a cluster, you can certainly have multiple applications, multiple developers, multiple teams work, but as you start to scale your usage you may want additional clusters. It could be because you want to separate your production environments from your dev and test environments. It could be for capacity, right? You have more development teams or more production environments than you want to sort of tie to a single cluster. Then you start expanding out into locations, right? Maybe you started in the data center, then you started doing deployments to one public cloud, then to other public clouds, and then that's only going to grow. We see more and more customers deploying multi-cloud strategies. And then the new thing right now that everybody wants to talk to us about is edge, and as you get into edge deployments, now those, the number of clusters could really explode into the hundreds or thousands. And so it all points back to you need a sane way to manage across all these clusters regardless of where they run and regardless of how many you have, and that's really what we've been working on with the Advanced Cluster Management for Kubernetes. >> What's the big draw? What's drawing the customers in with multi-cluster and multi-cloud? Obviously, the multi-cloud makes a lot of sense, you have multiple clouds. Sounds easier just saying it than doing it. But what is it about multi-cluster and multi-cloud that's drawing customers and people into this concept? >> Yes, I can start. I think what's drawing customers in is the need, the desire to have sort of a common abstraction for the applications that's consistent regardless of where they happen to run, right? So making sure that the developers don't have to worry about what infrastructure the applications are landing on, and they have that consistent experience that it's, abstracts their applications away from that infrastructure. So that gives the developers more flexibility, but it's also about flexibility and agility for those infrastructure owners, right, because they too want to make decisions on where stuff runs. Not because they're particularly tied to an infrastructure, but based on things like cost or security or other concerns. And so these are all drivers for multi-cluster and multi-cloud strategies and I think our hybrid cloud strategy at Red Hat really hits the mark to address those needs. >> Well, you guys had great performance. We've been following the past few years just the OpenShift and beyond, kind of the whole Red Hat, and Ansible specifically too, is doing real well in the marketplace so congratulations. David, I want to ask you about the management piece. This comes up over and over again. It's all good having the abstraction layer, you got all kinds of new sets of services, but multi-cluster management is not, (laughs) is not trivial. There's challenges for ops and automation teams. Could you share your perspective on how you guys are looking at the multi-cluster management? >> Sure, sure. The first thing we saw, and this kind of follows on the points that Joe and Tom are making, is that as customers start embracing the development with containers and leveraging Kubernetes, you start finding that they're putting up clusters across their data centers, across cloud, to support different parts of the life cycle of development, or supporting their own production environment or distributed workloads across clouds, across the data centers. And so the challenges that operations and management run into, and security in particular, is how do you start managing the clusters, their life cycle. It's easy to put 'em up, to provision 'em quickly, but how do you update and upgrade those? How do you make sure they're compliant with your various regulatory compliance like PCI, HIPAA, or the various federal standards? How do you make sure that compliance is adhered to across, and security across those clusters, as well as the applications themselves? How do you manage the applications through their life cycle? How do you have deployment policies? So the challenges for ops and automation and security are to have a consistent policy-driven way to take care of the clusters across these hybrid environments, and making sure they adhere to the compliance and security of the enterprise. >> Tom, multi-cluster deployments is a big part of this integration. We heard a little bit, obviously, compliance and governance is huge. IT's been living this world of policies and governance, but when we start moving fast into these new cutting edge services that are providing a lot of value, integration into existing IT infrastructure is important with clusters. How do you view that because this is where I think maybe collections are other things are, is this an indicator of what's happening? Can you give your thoughts on the customers out there who want to do multiple clusters for all the benefits, but then go, "Oh, I got to integrate it into existing IT infrastructure"? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that's what's happening right now. As Kubernetes and as OpenShift has become a strategic platform for our customers, the idea of, I'm going to say, kind of normalizing the operations of that platform as part of a greater IT ecosystem has become a challenge for them. And for the most part, they've already automated security, network, provisioning, app deployment, application updates, using the Ansible Automation Platform, and so it only makes sense that as Kubernetes and as OpenShift becomes a strategic platform for them, they want to use that same language, that same tool set, that same automation fabric, if you will, to integrate the applications that are running on OpenShift with the rest of the environment. So, for example, when I add a new node to a cluster or more capacity to a cluster or to clusters, I probably want to update my systems of record, right? My CMDBs or my ITSM systems. When I deploy a new app or make an update to an app on a cluster or across clusters, I'm probably going to want to update my load balancer to be able to direct traffic correctly to that, and that load balancer probably isn't running, my enterprise load balancer is kind of platform independent, so I'd need to be able to update that load balancer to properly direct traffic. Well, IT has already automated that function using Ansible. So by creating the collections that we have created for OpenShift and for Kubernetes, it makes it much easier for our customers to be able to just plug that in and adapt that to their existing automation infrastructure. So now it just becomes part of their overall IT environment. >> So just a follow-up real quick, if you don't mind. What are some of the challenges you're hearing from your customers around containerization and that growing space? I just talked to the IDC research analyst earlier at another virtual CUBE session where she says, roughly their estimate is 5 to 10% of enterprises are containerized, which is huge growth opportunities. The headroom in containers is massive, so what are some of the challenges? Is it easy to get started? This seems to be a nice opportunity for you guys. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I think that the way of looking at it with all that growth space, it's also the speed at which Kubernetes adoption and containerized application adoption is happening. And so, IT organizations are having to respond faster than they ever have before as this environment grows, and it is a multi-cloud environment. They have Kubernetes, OpenShift running on-prem, in the cloud, multiple data centers, as both Joe and Dave have said, and it becomes critical that they automate that correctly and accurately to ensure security, consistency, performance, availability. All of the other things that drive the requirement for automation standardization, all of those things that drive the requirements for automation are applicable to Kubernetes environments and containerized environments as well except they're moving and expanding faster, so teams have to respond quicker to the need. >> Joe, what's your take on this? I mean, to me, I'm the glass half full. I think I've seen containers be great and that maybe I'm looking at the early adopters, but those numbers seem a little bit low to me. What does that mean to you? More people are now getting up to speed. Is it a tipping point? It just seems a little bit low, and David, if you want to comment too, I think this an important number there. Joe, what's your take? >> Yeah, I mean, I think the rate represents an opportunity, but I see the growth as having been tremendous even in just the first few years. But to get to that broader market we did continue making it easier for customers to bring their applications to this new environment, to ride on existing infrastructure, and ultimately for our customers that means an evolution, right? An evolution of how they are going to manage those applications, how they're going to build and deploy them. And so with the integration of OpenShift and our advanced container management platforms with Ansible we can bring that automation to the mix to sort of tie those together, right? So to tie in the existing compute infrastructure, to tie in storage and networking and configure those as needed. And then as Tom mentioned, all those other systems, whether it's an IT service management system, something like a ServiceNow or other ticketing systems or other enterprise systems that exist that you just can't ignore. Because the more you try to go against the grain and do something different, the even harder it'll be. So we need to help customers evolve to take advantage of cloud and cloud native approaches, and the solutions that we're bringing to market are all about enterprise Kubernetes, enterprise container platforms. The combination of those technologies with something like Ansible really helps pave the path for the next phase of growth that we're expecting. >> So, ready for prime time right now. >> Right. >> David, your thoughts real quick on this. Containerization upside. >> Yeah, real quick, the development organizations, development teams, have picked up on containers very rapidly. Everybody is leveraging containers when they develop new applications or modernize the existing applications. So what we found is that a lot of the folks that pushed out very quickly, some greenfield apps, that's the 5, 10, 15, 20% that you're seeing occur. What started getting complex is how you really scale this to your enterprise. How do you really run this at scale from management operations and security perspective? OpenShift is critical, that gives a consistent platform across the hybrid cloud environments. What we're doing with ACM and the Advanced Cluster Management brings in the security and compliance. And what you'll see through AnsibleFest, what we're doing with Ansible is then, how do we then hook these environments right into all the existing IT environments? That's, to me, what's critical to really bring this to scale to the enterprise. >> Yeah, I think this, to me, the number points to exactly what you guys said. Ready for prime time, scale's there, and the demand's there. And I think, Tom and Joe, I want to ask you specifically the relationship between OpenShift and Ansible, but before that, I remember, forget what year it was, we were doing a CUBE event at, I think it might've been OpenStack, going back to the day, but I remember OpenShift and it was a moment where OpenShift adopted containers and then next year Kubernetes. And I remember talking to the team, them saying, "This is going to be a big bet for OpenShift." Looks like it was a good bet. (laughs) It paid out real well, congratulations. And it was good, you guys stayed the course. But you made it easier, and one of the things was is that the complaint at the time was they didn't want Kubernetes to be the next Hadoop. Easy to use but gets out of control. Not that I meant they're comparable, but Hadoop had that problem of it was easy open source but then it was hard to manage. So OpenShift really took advantage of that. You guys, I think, did a good job on that. But now you got Ansible winning the game on developers, on easy to deploy, so as that scales up, automation's there. So I'd like to hear you guys talk about the connection between OpenShift and Ansible and how that expands the scope of what both products can do for customers. >> Yeah, maybe I'll give it a shot first and then let Joe go after me, which is, look, here's what we have, is we have lots and lots and lots of customers, Red Hat customers that are OpenShift users and that are Ansible users, right? So we have this two large pools. They also represent two very large and vibrant open source community projects. The Ansible project and the Kubernetes project are two hugely popular, vibrant communities, and so it just made sense to kind of be a catalyst in those communities, to bring those two things together, to work together, to the benefit of our customers and to kind of capture the innovation that's going on upstream in the communities. So we decided to get really kind of serious about the integration of these two platforms and integrated Ansible in a native way on Kubernetes so that OpenShift and Kubernetes operators, as well as application developers, could take advantage of that integration without having to learn something new or foreign in order to be able to do it. So it was a native integration using operators, which is the right way to integrate with the Kubernetes platform, with OpenShift in particular. And so that's the way we kind of brought it together to the benefit of our customers. Our customers are, like I said, normalizing the operations of OpenShift as a strategic part of their infrastructure, deploying production applications, and want to be able to tie that into their other systems and other parts of their infrastructure, both from an app deployment process as well as from an infrastructure deployment and management process. So it only made sense that it actually, our customers have been asking us for this and talking to us about this, so it only kind of made perfect sense to kind of get out there and do that, get the communities together innovating, and then take that innovation out for our customer. >> Joe. >> Yeah, the only thing I'd add to that, there's really two specific personas at play here, right? When you think of, there's the IT operations and infrastructure teams. They own those clusters, the provisioning, the configuration, the management of those clusters. And with ACM, with Advanced Cluster Management for Kubernetes, we have now an interface that they can use to see and manage the life cycle of all their clusters. So through that we can integrate Ansible as another automation tool in their portfolio to do things that need to happen when those clusters first get configured or when those clusters get updated and so forth. So if they need to update an ITSM system or configure a network or do whatever it needs to, you have Ansible automation scripts that can be plugged in at the appropriate time in that cluster's life cycle to do that. On the other side, you have the developer and DevOps teams that are consumers of these platforms, right? And what they care about is the applications that they're building, but there's a lot that goes into building it, right? There's the source code management systems, there's the CI systems, the CD systems, there's the test environments and stage and prod. And so there's a lot of moving parts, and again, and then there's the services themselves that they're configuring so you have, or building, not configuring, you have Ansible again ready to sort of take on some of those tasks, automation tasks that go beyond what Kubernetes is focused on or what you're trying to do with OpenShift. And again, doing it at the appropriate time in the life cycle, all tied in through Advanced Cluster Management which can actually see out to all those clusters and be in that sort of application deployment workflow across those clusters. So those are sort of some of the specific areas and how they pertain to those specific personas that are driving the activity. >> What's interesting, this automation piece really is key across multiple environments, and we've heard that from some of your customers. 'Cause you got now private clouds out there, you got large scale. But, Dave, I want to ask you, what makes Advanced Cluster Management a natural fit with OpenShift and Ansible? What's your take? >> Yeah, good question, John. First, ACM is purpose-built for the Kubernetes environment. It's a cloud native management system, and as we said earlier, we really focused on managing the cluster life cycles, managing the security compliance, and managing applications deployed into these environments. So it was a very natural extension of OpenShift, to be able to manage OpenShift, multiple clusters of OpenShift in hybrid environments. Within your data center, across data centers, across clouds, and the combination. So, very natural fit with OpenShift. As we've been all talking about, as we looked at how did we then bring OpenShift and these resources closer through automation to many of the other parts of your IT environment, that made it natural from ACM to call out into the playbooks of Ansible. So just a simple example, and I think we circled around this a few times. You're deploying a cluster or you're deploying, say, an application to that cluster. You need to configure that into a firewall. Maybe configure it into a load balancer. Maybe register it with a service management system. That, all those calls, they come out through policy from ACM over into Ansible to take advantage of the wealth of playbooks that are available in Ansible to perform those operations. Whether it's security, network, service management, storage, et cetera. >> Real quick follow-up for you is, how has bringing your ACM team and product into Red Hat changed the scope and approach of what you're trying to do? >> Yeah, well, let me say first of all it's been a great experience bringing the team into Red Hat. The environment, the open culture, it's really been invigorating for the whole team. Also, getting much, much closer into the open communities and open sourcing ACM and doing development in the open has really brought us closer really to users, the ecosystem, the communities, accelerating our delivery quality, as well as really getting much more closer insights, getting insights into what's happening in the community, what's happening with the users. So it's really, it's been a great experience all the way around. >> Joe and Tom, quick comment, what do you think people should pay attention to this year at AnsibleFest 2020? What's the big story? Obviously we're in a pandemic. We're going to come out of the pandemic. People want to have a growth strategy that has the right projects on the right rails. They want to either maybe downplay some of the projects that maybe not be a fit, that were exposed during the pandemic. Best practices that are emerging, shifting left for security is one. You're seeing remote workers. People have kind of had a wake-up call on cloud native being relevant for the modern app. Now they're running as fast as they can to build the infrastructure, and guess what? People are not actually in the workplaces. The workforce, the workplace has all changed. Can you guys share your expertise over the years on what is the best practice and approach to take? Because the clock's ticking. >> Yeah, from my perspective and from an Ansible perspective here, we had always been about kind of automate everything, right? Automate every task that is automatable, right? A repeatable task, automate it. Repeatable task, automate it. And over the past couple of years we've really been focused on automation across teams by using Ansible content, the actual automation code, if you will, itself to bring teams together and to cross teams and cross functions. So not just focused on what a network operations person or a network engineer needs to do in their day-to-day job, but connect that to what a security operations person is doing day-to-day in their job in terms of threat detection and intrusion response, or intrusion detection and threat response, and connecting those two teams together via automation to make both of them more responsive and more effective. So we've been on this bandwagon for the past couple of years around Ansible content, and now Ansible collections and Automation Hub, to try and accelerate the way these teams can collaborate together. The pandemic and the pressures that put on the system with remote users and having to do things in a different way only exacerbated, it only kind of enhanced the requirement for that collaboration, that automation across teams. So in a lot of ways, the past six, seven months, both for our Ansible business as well as for the way our customers have been using the technology, has really been an accelerator for that kind of cross-team collaboration, our subscription business, and our Ansible consumption. >> Yeah, well, I said it last year in-person when we were in Atlanta for AnsibleFest 2019, a platform approach is a great way to go. You start out as a tool, you become a platform. You guys are doin' the work over there. I really appreciate it and I want to call that out 'cause I think it's worth calling out. Joe, cloud platforms. Cloud is certainly an enabler. Red Hat and OpenShift has been a great success and can, only has got more work to do. People still got to build out these platforms, and you're seeing private cloud not going away. I mean, we just had a conversation at OpenStack and you guys got customers with a lot of private cloud everywhere. (laughs) So you got private, you got hybrid, you got multi, and you got public. It's pretty crazy. What's your thoughts on what people should take away from AnsibleFest and then going forward post-pandemic? >> Yeah, so, first Tom hit on a number of key points there, right? COVID-19 and everything going on in the world has really just accelerated a lot of these transformations that were already in the works at many of our enterprise customer accounts, right? And now when we're all working remotely, we're all meeting virtually, we're educating our children remotely, it just exacerbates the need to scale our networks, to extend security out to remote workforces, and to do all of these things at much larger scales than we ever envisioned before, and you can't do that without automation. And I would argue, without taking advantage of some of these modern cloud native platforms and cloud native development approaches. And we always say Red Hat's been a big proponent of hybrid cloud, of our open hybrid cloud strategy. We've been talking about that for years, and what we always say is even if that's a strategy that you aren't specifically looking for, it's something that, everybody ends up there, right? Because nobody's running everything in the data center anymore, but as they move out to public cloud they're not completely shutting those data centers off either. As they expand their consumption of public cloud, they tend to start exploring multi-cloud strategies, and now that hybrid cloud is extending out to the edge. So the hybrid cloud is sort of where everybody is, right? And the ability to sort of manage consistently, to run consistently across all those environments, to be able to secure all those environments and scale those environments, and that's what we're all about here at Red Hat and that's sort of the key to our open hybrid cloud strategy and what we're really trying to do with our entire portfolio. >> Awesome, David, final word. We're in a systems world now. The cloud is one big distributed computer. We got the edge, we heard that. Developers just want to code, they want infrastructure as code, you guys got to help 'em get there. What's your take on the importance of AnsibleFest and this systems world we live in? >> Well, there's probably not a more critical time. We've all been saying this and seeing this the last 10 months now. The transformation digitally that's been going on for years, the development transformations, it's all hit a fever pitch. It's been accelerated through COVID. In particular, how quickly can I adjust to a digital transformation? How quickly can I adjust my business processes? How quickly can I really become a very agile DevOps SRE organization? That is so critical. So at AnsibleFest what we're doing is bringing together platforms with automation with the ability to manage it at scale with security. That's what's going on from Red Hat in a open environment, open world, with communities and huge ecosystems. That, to me, is the critical rallying points, and really necessary to drive this accelerated transformation. >> Yeah, and again, open source continues to power it. One thing I'm impressed with is this concept of content, not content as in a video, but content as code. It's collaboration. It's what people are sharing their playbooks and they're sharing their, are opening things up. I think there's going to be a whole 'nother level of developer collaboration that's going to emerge and you guys are on the front end of all of this. I think it's going to be pretty powerful. I don't think yet clearly understood yet by most folks, but when you start seeing the automation benefits, Tom, I'm sure your team will be like, "Yeah, see, automation platform." Thank you so much for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> Thanks. >> I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, hosting theCUBE virtual for AnsibleFest 2020 virtual. Thanks for watching. (relaxing music)

>> Welcome. My name is Richard Henshall. I'm a senior manager for product management, for Ansible Automation Platform. Think to yourself, how did you adapt to the changes this year? How was your team forced to adapt? And were you prepared and had you been automating already? Talking for the Ansible team, we're ready to move forward. Now we suspect that sentiment is shared by many of us here. We just had a good lesson in why being able to adapt quickly is so important. The previous ways of working may not always be available to us, and we have to change the way we focus and look at things. And this is why I have such a strong belief in the power that automation can gift us. And if we remind ourselves of what the goal of automation is, and to put it very simply, to perform work with minimal human interaction On one hand, this sounds great, no work. But it can also seem very impersonal. And the reality is automation cannot be achieved without knowledge and experience. Because what needs to be automated is what we learn. So much of what we do is specific to our circumstances, to our business or our own personal backgrounds. So how we approach automation is also important. And that's why this year's message "Automate to connect" is relevant to the times we find ourselves in. As a rhetorical question, and of course, all of these are rhetorical questions. I'm sat in a room at my house, staring at a camera. I would next ask you why we need to connect? And what do we connect for? Do we connect to share knowledge, to learn from others, to work on common goals and objectives? Reality is it should be all of these. Any intent when we connect from our work perspective, needs to be about collaboration. Collaboration is essential when we approach how we deal with change. Because when we talk about change, we often see it explained as people process and technology. But when we're forced to change, the unexpected circumstances, you can't always be prepared. You're not always given the time to plan and prepare the way you'd like. So having a way to connect, to build relationships and to collaborate is more important than ever. Back in the days when I was learning my trade, middleware engineering before the endless video calls, presentations and spreadsheets, the most difficult relationship to improve was between us in engineering and the network team. And it wasn't because of the skills it wasn't because we didn't like each other, at least I'd like to think so. And it wasn't for lack of trying. It's because the network team, they're on a different floor, big security door, magnetic locks, special key cards that you needed to have access for. It was aggressively protected so they couldn't be interfered with. It wasn't this opportunity to build the relationships in the same way that we could when we could go and collaborate with the Linux Windows or storage teams. You couldn't wander off and discuss a problem, just have a chat, they were locked away. Now, maybe they like that and sometimes it's good to be locked away, but it forms a barrier. And it's a barrier to collaboration. And so with this group, collaboration required meetings, it required planning and this made it harder. And when something's hard, it makes it easier not to do it. And additionally, we didn't have a platform to help us. So ask yourself, does that sound familiar to your circumstance? What we needed to connect those relationships and we've seen this time and time again, is that for automation we need a consistent technology foundation to connect. With the foundation encourages simplicity for collaboration foundation to connect the people, process and technology and a foundation to help us build trust in those relationships. If we'd had that foundation, that platform, we could have been successful much faster. 'Cause it's important we understand that success depends on trust between groups. To be successful in adapting to change we need to know we trust when the situation may not be perfect. It might be different offices, could be different countries, probably different languages, maybe even different objectives between these different groups. It might be a global pandemic, which is a phrase I never thought I would say in a keynote, but connecting with your colleagues, collaborating and therefore participating in the work that's done. Working as a wider team, enables you to see a broader perspective. Because how else do we trust? Unless we understand each other. How do we trust what we can create? Who has created it? Is he up to standard? And how do we trust what's running where? And who's been running it that we can scale with the correct control? And how do we trust that we can engage removing friction and complexity. And we can do all these things by being given the opportunity to participate, to be included in the overall process. Ultimately, how do we participate to achieve our goals? And what goals do we choose? Your goals are your business challenges automate what makes both your business and IT successful because participation is key to that process. And the more people you can bring together to connect, the more benefit you can achieve. If we've connected and collaborated, we trust what's being produced because automation can be a selfish act. I, the individual do something to make my job easier, but you should think of automation as a gift of knowledge and experience. How can you automate your job to make your colleagues' lives easier? So as we assume and know that participation enables collaboration, how do we help you to collaborate? Well with Ansible, the language of collaboration. And to collaborate, we need to connect. And for that, we have the Ansible Automation Platform. Everything I've described so far is drawn from our collective experience with customers. When Ansible the tool was released, it started as a way to perform automation in a simpler way. As your needs changed, we added more domains and then your needs changed again. As complexity and scale surfaced, a different set of challenges for us to look after. Not only did you do the automation, you need to do more automation as you achieve some successes. And afterwards you have to manage all that automation. To be successful we have deserved that it's not just what you do, it's how and where you do it. It's not just about the tool. It's about the structure, the framework. A focal point and a user experience in maintaining your automation assets. And this is why we focused all of our product offerings into Ansible Automation Platform, a single offering for enterprise grade automation. We've supported your changes in the past, and we've been working to support your changes for the future, help you adapt and connect. Now, if Ansible is the language of collaboration, collections, Ansible content collections are the building blocks of how you simplify the connection of your trusted technologies. Last year, we launched collections as a way to improve the management of content distributed within the Ansible project and the Ansible products. The teams involved were busy working on making this happen over the last 12 months. Working with our community and partners to migrate over 4000.5 modules. This work including this summer with the Ansible collections, 1.0 release. Last Ansible Fest we unveiled certified platforms with the Ansible certified partner program. End to end support for Ansible content between Red Hat and our trusted partners. We now have over 50 certified platforms focused on curated enterprise technology domains. The platforms that you use and rely upon because connecting these domains is connecting your teams. I'm talking about connecting teams. I'm sure that your planning has started already working on cloud native adoption. Key to that cloud native journey and story are containers. And that brings its own set of changes to the way that we work. And we want to support you as you adapt to these changes. I assume most of you are aware that OpenShift is Red Hat's intuivating container orchestration platform based on Kubernetes. And I'd like to announce the release of certified Ansible content collections of Red Hat OpenShift. Whether it be for augmenting provisioning, customizing cluster nodes, or data operations. Collections gives us the perfect opportunity to deliver these use cases and more. Because we know Red Hat customers have chosen and trust Ansible Automation and OpenShift platforms to drive transformation programs. But the connection between these two platforms and the teams that deliver these has always been very implementation efforts. We know that we need to move away from that implementation effort and move to product integration. The reality of evolving tech is it's never all or nothing. If you're fortunate, you can deploy your cloud native application entirely on OpenShift. But what happens, we need to manage across clusters or access existing infrastructure like networks or databases. We're excited to bridge traditional container and edge through Ansible Automation. Perhaps the only automation and container platform solution that is truly agnostic Ansible just doesn't care whose platform you're running on. The new Ansible resource operator, which we deployed as part of Red Hat advanced cluster management is our answer. We're making the Ansible Automation platform a first class provider inside ACM. To enable call outs to automation assets deployed on the automation platform and to make it easily accessible to container management workflows and connect two industry leading technology platforms. Enabling this integration with our customers to identify and enforce policies, applied governance models consistently across multiple clusters, as a deploy and scale complex applications across hybrid multi cluster environments. In the future, the resource operator will be available for any OpenShift deployed service to integrate to the Ansible Automation Platform. And to find out more about this, be sure to checkout Matt Jones' "Future of Ansible Automation Talk" as well as the ACM breakout sessions. Now, as collections are about connecting technology and product integrations are about connecting process. We still need to think about connecting people. How do we ensure that users can find trusted content? So while many users are happy to get content from Ansible galaxy, we know that many enterprises are far less comfortable with that situation. And certainly not comfortable uploading private developed content themselves. We also know that galaxy isn't the only source of content for you to use. There are other source control, repositories, other locations, perhaps even file shares where you allow your teams to collaborate and connect. With all these different sources it can be hard for your users, your internal communities to connect and trust they're using approved content. So we want to connect teams, help them collaborate, have shared goals and ensure trust in how they automate. We need to fill that gap. And that's why last year we launched the automation hub on cloud@redhat.com. As a trusted source for download downstream certified Ansible content supported as part of ground sports automation platform subscription. And this is where you access the collections for those 50 certified platforms I mentioned earlier. But that was only part one of the plan. So while we can provide a location for trusted content that doesn't bring together content from other sources. Before, I mentioned collections were introduced to help the management of automation content. By adopting collections, you provide a path for automation developers to bring content together in a common location, allow multiple teams to increase their time to value in the automation adoption journeys. But to connect internal communities of practice, we need to provide a focal point for all things related to automation content. And that's why we're pleased to announce that the private version of automation hub will be released to the content and knowledge management component of the Ansible Automation Platform. Your privately hosted location for all your Ansible content, to allow you to curate which content is available from which sources, whether it's from Red Hat, the Ansible community, or develop internally. You now have the control over which content you trust. Finally, this year we launched our third hosted service and no additional cost to platform customers. The automation services catalog. The purpose of this service was to allow you to connect your business users with rules-based governance and a simplified user experience to the automation creator deployed via the platform. We're announcing a tech preview launch with the connected technology security connect to your own prem platform environments. It's based on a technology that's part of our future plans. And again, if you attend Matt Jones' "Future of Ansible Automation Talk", you'll hear more about what we're planning in this area. Because this year has been somewhat challenging, automation and Ansible have become more important to many individuals and organizations. So I could leave you with one set of thoughts to adapt and to change as we face, keep things simple, participate in making automation happen and understand the problems to be solved, but always try and keep it simple. Evolve and scale as you connect your teams, as you would grow and expand your automation, grow and expand the scale you're working at as you move forward. And collaborate to break down the silos and domains that build and build your automation that makes change possible. Whether you're an Ansible expert or someone looking for some way to start, we have sessions we hope will inspire you to make your own changes and sessions that will give you the knowledge of how to adapt for the future. Thank you and happy automating.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition of course. We're talking to practitioners, we're talking to contributors, we're talking to end users from around the globe where they are, and of course when we talk about the CNCF, it's not just Kubernetes, there's a lot of projects in there, and it's not just for building things in the cloud, one of the interesting use cases that we've been talking about the last year or two has been about how edge computing fits into this whole ecosystem. To help us dig in a little bit deeper into that conversation, welcome on board one of our CUBE alumni, Nick Barcet, he is a senior director of technology strategy at Red Hat. Nick, great to see you again, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for inviting me again. >> All right, so as I teed up, containerization and Kubernetes, a lot of times people think about it's the big public cloud that's my data center, but of course, cloud is not a destination, there's so much happening with the containerized world, and of course these lightweight environments, when we can make them lightweight, makes sense to go to the edge, so if you could, just tell us where we are with the state of containerization and the cloud-native ecosystem, and where does that fit with edge computing today? >> So what we're seeing currently is every ISV, every customer we talk with, are converting to developing their application with container as a target. This is making it so much simpler for them to be able to establish their application wherever they want. Of course, when we add, for example, the operator framework that we just got accepted into the CNCF, and normalize how you're going to do day one and day two of the life cycle of this container, this is making things a lot simpler. And this is allowing us to have the same principle reapplied for deployments happening in the cloud, on your private data center, and anywhere at the edge. And that's really the core of our strategy, whether in the open source community, or as a commercial company. It is to make all these different footprints absolutely equal when you are writing code, when you're deploying code, when you're managing it. >> Yeah, Nick, we talk about the edge from my standpoint, tend to think that it is going to need a lighter weight, smaller footprint than if I'm thinking about my data center or the environment, reminds me some ways of of course Red Hat, but CoreOS was how do we build something that can be updated faster and be a thinner operating system. When we think of Kubernetes, Kubernetes today isn't as simple, there's obviously a lot of managed services out there, of course with OpenShift you've got an industry leading solution out there, but is there something different I need to do to be able to do containerization and Kubernetes at the edge? How does that fit? >> As a developer, as a user, I hope you have nothing different to do. It's our job to make our platform suit the requirement that are very specific to the edge. For example, if you're going to put Kubernetes inside of a plane, you're not going to be able to use all the space you want. You're very space-constrained. Or if you put it in a train, or if you put it in a boat, you're going to have different types of constraints. And we need to be able to have a implementation of Kubernetes that fits the smallest requirement, but still has the components that enables you as a developer or you as the administrator to feel at home regardless of the implementation of it. And that's the real beauty of what we are trying to do, and that's why we are not rushing it. We are trying to do it upstream so that we have something that is as smooth as possible across different points. >> All right, when we talk about going to the edge, one of the considerations of course is the network to get there. So help us connect what the impact is of 5G, where we are with the rollout, and are there any industries maybe that are leading the pack when it comes to this discussion? >> Yeah, so when I talk about 5G, I like to distinguish two things. There is 5G as the network that the carriers are currently deploying to support all kinds of terminal endpoints. And it happens that in order to have an efficient 5G deployment, operators use edge technology to deploy computing power as close as possible to the tower. So that the latency between your device and what is connecting you to the internet, the time packets take to go across that last mile, is as short as possible. There is a second case, which is also very interesting in the edge part. Which is private 5G, because private 5G enables the customer to establish his, let's say his own antenna, his own local 5G network completely secure, that will enable connecting sensors or devices of all kinds, without having to run wire, and in a much more reliable way than if you're using Wi-Fi or similar kinds of connectivity. So these two aspects are crucial to edge, one because edge is enabling the deployment of it, the other one because it's enabling the growth of the number of sensors without multiplying the cost like crazy. In terms of deployments, well, you know our largest reference is Verizon, and Verizon is moving forward with its plan. This is going very well, I believe they have communicated around this so I will point you around what Verizon has stated on their deployment, but we have multiple other customers starting their journey and clearly, the fact that we have the ability to deploy the stack on the version of Kubernetes that is basically the same regardless of where you're deploying it. That has the ability to support both containers and VM for those applications that are not yet containerized, makes a huge difference in the simplicity of this transition. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you talk about the conversion between virtual machines and containers. One of the big use cases often talked about for edge computing is in industrial manufacturing, and there you've got the boundary between IT and OT, and OT traditionally doesn't want to even think about all those IT conversions and challenges that they've got their proprietary systems for the most part, so is that something, speak to what you're seeing in that segment. >> So, it's interesting, because we just released last week our first inclination about the industrial blueprint that we are proposing. And for us, the convergence between IT and OT comes at when you have automation in the interpretation of data provided by sensors. This automation generally takes the form of machine learning algorithms, that are deployed on the factory floors, that analyzes the sensor data in real time, and will be able to predict failure, or will be able to look at video feed to verify that employees are respecting safety measures, and many many other applications. So because of the value this brings to the operational people, this bridge is very easily closed once you've resolved the technical difficulty, and the technical difficulty are mostly what I call plumbing. Plumbing that takes the form of norms being widely different between the industrial world and the IT world so far. Difficulties because you don't speak the same language. Let's take an example. In the industrial world, CAN is the way you're synchronizing time resources. In the IT world, we have been using other protocol, and more recently, especially in the telco space, we're using PTP. But it seems that PTP is now crossing over to the industrial world, so things are slowly but very safely evolving with something that is enabling this next wave of revolution into the factories. >> Yeah, Nick, it's been fascinating always to watch when you have some of those silos, and when is the right time that things pull together. Curious, one of the big questions in 2020 of course is with the global pandemic going on, which projects get accelerated, and which ones might be pushed off a little bit, where does edge computing fall in the conversations you're having with customers, is that something mission-critical that they need to accelerate, or is it something that might take a little bit longer, possibly even a delay with the current pandemic? >> So it's quite hard to answer this question because we are in an up slope. Is the slope less up now than it would have been without the pandemic, I have no way to tell. What I'm seeing is a constant uptick of people moving forward with their projects, in fact some projects are made, for example for worker safety, are made even more urgent than they were before, because by just analyzing video feed, you can ensure that your processes prevents too close contact between coworkers, and making them vulnerable in this way. So it really depends on the industry, I imagine, but right now we see the demand growing regardless of the pandemic. >> All right, Nick, you mentioned earlier that when I think about the edge, it should be the same code, I hopefully shouldn't have to think about it differently no matter where it is. That begs the question, help connect OpenShift for us as to what is Red Hat offering when it comes to the edge solution with OpenShift? >> So, you have, what we say is the edge is like an onion, where you have different layers. And every time I look at the onion in the perspective of a given customer, the layers are very different. But what we are finding is, similar requirements in terms of security, in terms of power consumption, in terms of space allocated for the hardware, and in order to satisfy these requirements, we found out that we need to build three new ways of deploying OpenShift, so that we can match all of these potential layers. The first one that we have released and are announcing this week is OpenShift deployable on three nodes, that means that you have your supervisors, your controllers, and your workers, on the same three physical machines. That's not the smallest footprint that we need, but it's a pretty good footprint to solve the case of a factory. In this environment, with these three nodes, we have something that is capable of being fully connected or working disconnected with. The second footprint that we need to be able to satisfy for is what we call single node deployment. And single node deployment from our perspective need to come in two flavors. The easy way, the one we're going to be releasing next quarter, is what we call remote worker node. So you have your controllers in a central site, and you can have up to 2000 remote worker nodes spread across as many site as you want. The caveat with this is that you need to have full time connectivity. So in order to solve for this connected site, then we need something that is a standalone single node deployment, and that's something that a lot of people have prototypes so far, and we are currently working on delivering a version that we hope is going to be satisfying 99% of the requirement, and is going to be fully upstream. >> All right, last piece on this, Nick, how should I be thinking about managing my environment when it comes to the edge, seen a lot of course from Red Hat at Red Hat Summit and talked to some of your peers, some recent announcements, so how do we plug in what's happening at the edge and make sure we've got full visibility and management across all of my environments? >> So if I had one word to explain what we need to do, it's GitOps. Basically, you need immutable deployments, you need to be pulling configuration and all information from a central site and adapt it to the local site, without manual intervention. You need full automation. And you need a tool to manage your policies on top of it, and of course aggregate information on how things are going. What we don't want is to have to sit one administrator per site. What we do not want is to have to send people on each site at the time of deployment. So you need to be abiding by this completely automated model in order to be edge compliant. Does that make sense? >> It does, and I'm assuming the ACM solution, Advanced Cluster Management, is a piece of that overall offer. >> Absolutely, ACM is the way we present, we organize policies, the way we get reporting information, and the way we do our GitOps automation. >> All right, so Nick, final question for you, give us a little bit of a look forward, you just mentioned earlier one of the things that's getting worked on is that single node disconnected type of solution. What else should we be looking at in the maturity of edge solutions in this containerizing Kubernetes world? >> So it's not only about the architecture that we need to support. It's a lot more about the workloads that we are going to have running there. And in order to help our customer make their choice, in how they design the network, we need to provide them with what we call blueprints. And in our mind, a blueprint is more than just a piece of paper. It's actually a complete set of instruction, abiding with this GitOps model that I described, that you can pull from a Git repository, that enables automation of the deployment of something. So for example, the first blueprint we are going to be releasing is the one for industrial manufacturing using AIML, and this is going to be something that we are going to be maintaining over time, accepting contribution from outside, and is an end to end example of how to do it in a factory. We are going to follow up with that with other blueprints for 5G, for private 5G, for how do you deploy that in maybe a healthcare environment, et cetera, et cetera, the idea here is to exemplify and help people make the right choices and also ensuring that the stack we provide at one point in time remains compatible given the complexity of the components we have in there over time, and that's really the thing that we think we need to be providing to our customers. >> All right, well Nick, thank you so much for giving us the update, in regards to edge computing, really important and exciting segment of the market. >> Thank you very much, 'twas a pleasure being with you once again. >> All right, and stay with us, lots more coverage from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>>from around the globe. >>It's the Cube with >>coverage of Coop Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat Cloud, >>Native Computing Foundation and >>Ecosystem Partners. Hi. And welcome back. I'm stew Minuteman. And this is the cube coverage of que con cognitive con 2020. The Europe virtual addition Course kubernetes won the container wars as we went from managing a few containers that managing clusters, too many customers managing multiple clusters and that and get more complicated. So to help understand those challenges and how solutions are being put out to solve them, having a welcome back to the from one of our cube alumni do if it Gerald is the vice president and general manager of the management business unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you again. Thanks so much for joining us >>two. Thanks for having me back. >>All right, so at Red Hat Summit, one of the interesting conversation do you and I add, was talking about advanced cluster management or a CME course. That was some people and some technology that came over to Red hat from IBM post acquisition. So it was tech preview give us the update. What's the news? And, you know, just level set for the audience. You know what cluster management is? >>Sure, So advanced Cluster manager or a CMS, We actually falling, basically, is a way to manage multiple clusters. Ross, even different environments, right? As people have adopted communities and you know, we have at several 1000 customers running open shift on their starting to push it in some very, very big ways. And so what they run into is a stay scale. They need better ways to manage. It would make those environments, and a CMS is a huge way to help manage those environments. It was early availability back at Summit end of April, and in just a few months now it's generally available. We're super excited about that. >>Well, that that Congratulations on moving that from technical preview to general availability so fast. What can you tell us? How many customers have you had used this? What have you learned in talking to them about this solution? >>So, first of all, we're really pleasantly surprised by the amount of people that were interested in the tech preview. Integrity is not a product that's ready to use in production yet so a lot of times accounts are not interested in. They want to wait for the production version. We had over 100 customers in our tech review across. Not only geography is all over the world Asia, America, Europe, us across all different verticals. There's a tremendous amount of interest in it. I think that just shows you know, how applicable it is to these environments of people trying to manage. So tremendous had update. We got great feedback from that. And in just a few months, we incorporate that feedback into the now generally available product. So great uptick during the tech created >>Excellent Bring assigned side a little bit, you know, When would I use this solution? If I just have a single cluster, Does it make sense for May eyes? Is it only for multi clusters? You know, what's the applicability of the offering? Yes, sir, even for >>single clusters that the things that ACM really does fall into three major areas right allows closer lifecycle management. Of course, that would mean that you have more than one cluster ondas people grow. They do for a number of reasons. Also, policy based management the ability to enforced and fig policies and enforce compliance across even your single cluster to make sure that stays perfect in terms of settings and configuration and things like that. Any other application. Lifecycle management The ability to deploy applications in more advanced way, even if you're on a single cluster, gets even better for multi cluster. But you can deploy your APS to just the clusters that are tagged a certainly, but lots of capabilities, even for application, even a single cluster. So we find even people that are running a single cluster need it askew, deployed more more clusters. You're definitely >>that's great. Any you mentioned you had feedback from customers. What are the things that I guess would be the biggest pain points that this solves for them that they were struggling with in the past? Well, >>first of being able to sort of Federated Management multiple clusters, right, as opposed to having to manage each cluster individually, but the ability to do policy based configuration management to just express the way you want things to stay, have them stay that way to adopt a more of a getups ethnology in terms of how they're managing their your open ships environments. There's lots more feedback, but those were some of the ones that seem to be fairly common, repetitive across the country. >>Yeah, and you know, Joe, you've also gotten automation in the management suite. How do I think about this? How does this fit into the broader management automation that customers were using? Well, >>I think as people in employees environments. And it was a long conversation about platform right? But there's a lot of things that have to go with the platform and red hats actually in very good about that, in terms of providing all the things you necessary that you would find necessary to make the five form successful in your environment. Right? So I was seen by four. We need storage, then development environments management, the automation ability to train on it. We have our open innovation labs. There's lots of things that are beyond the platform that people acquire in order to be successful. In the case of management automation, ACM was a huge advancement. Terms had managed these environments, but we're not done. We're gonna continue to ADM or automation integration with things like answerable mawr, integration with observe ability and analytics so far from done. But we want to make sure that open ship stays the best managed environment that's out there. I also do want to make a call out to the fact that you know, this team has been working on this technology for the past couple of years. And so, you know, it's only been a red hat for five months. This technology is actually very mature, but it is quite an accomplishment for any company to take a new team in a new technology. And in five months, do what Red Hat does to it in terms of making it consumable for the enterprise. So then kudos continue. Really not >>well. And I know a piece of that is, you know, moving that along to be open source. So, you know, where are we with the solution? Now that is be a How does that fit in tow being open? Source. >>Eso supports that are open source Already. When the process of open sourcing the rest of it, as you've seen over time read, it has a perfect record here of acquiring technologies that were either completely closed Source Open core in some cases where part it was open. It was closed. But that was the case with Ansell a few years ago. But basically our strategy is everything has to be open source. That takes time in the process of going through all of the processes necessary to open source parts of ACM on. We think that will find lots of interest in the community around the different projects inside of >>Yeah. How about what? One of the bigger concerns talking to customers in general about kubernetes even Mawr in 2020 is. What about security? How does a CME help customers make sure that their environment to secure? >>Yeah, so you know, configuration policies and forcing you can actually sent with ACM that you want things to be a certain way that somebody changes them that automatically either warn you about them or enforcement would set them back. So it's got some very strong security chops in terms of keeping the configurations just the way you want. That gets harder as you get more and more clusters. Imagine trying to keep everything but the same levels, settings, software, all the parts and pieces so affected you have ACM that can do this across any and all of your clusters really took the burden off people trying to maintain secure environments, >>okay, and so generally available. Now, anything you can share about how this solution is priced, how it fits in tow. The broader open shift offerings, >>Yes. Oh, so it's an add on for open shift is priced very similarly to open shift in terms of the, you know, core pricing. One thing I do want to mention about ACM, which maybe doesn't come out just by a description product is the fact that a scene was built from scratch for communities, environments and optimize for open shift. We're seeing a lot of competition out there that's taking products that were built for other environments, trying to sort of been member coerce them into managing kubernetes environments. We don't think people are going to be successful at that. Haven't been successful to date. So one things that we find as sort of a competitive differentiator for ACM and market is the fact that it was built from scratch designed for communities environments. So it is really well designed for the environment it's trying to manage, and we think that's gonna keep your competitive edge? >>Well, always. Joe. When you have a new architecture, you advantage of things. Any examples that you have is what, what a new architecture like this can do that that an older architecture might struggle with or not believe. Be able to do even though when you look at the product sheet, the words sound similar. But when you get underneath the covers, it's just not a good architect well fit. >>Yeah, so it's very similar sort of the shift from physical to virtual. You can't have a paradigm shift in the infrastructure and not have a sort of a corresponding paradigm shift in management tool. So the way you monitor these environments, where you secure them the way they scale and expand, we do resource management, security. All those things are vastly different in this environment compared to, let's say, a virtual more physical environment. So this has improved many times in the past. You know, paradigm shift in the infrastructure or the application environment will drive a commensurate paradigm shift in management. That's what you're seeing here. So that's why we thought it was super important to have management that was built for these environments. by design. So it's not trying to do sort of unnatural things north manage the environment. >>Yeah, I wondered. I love to hear just a little bit your philosophy as to what's needed in this space. You know, I look back to previous generations, look at virtualization. You know, Microsoft did very well at managing their environment, the M where did the same for their environments. But, you know, we've had generations of times where solutions have tried to be management of everything, and that could be challenging. So, you know, what's Red Hat in a CM's position and what do we need in the community space, you know, today and for the next couple of years. >>So kubernetes itself is the automation platform you talked about, you know, early on in the second. So you know, Cooper navies itself provides, you know, a lot of automation around container management. What a CME does is build a top it out and then capture, you know, data and events and configuration items in the environment and then allows you to define policies. People want to move away from manual processes. Certainly, but they wanna be able to get to a more state full expression of the way things should be. You want to be able to use more about, you know, sort of get up, you know, kind of philosophy where they say, this is how I want things today. Check the version in, keep it at that level. If it changes, put it back. Tell me about it. But sort of the era of chasing. You know, management with people is changing. You're seeing a huge premium now on probation. So automation at all levels. And I think this is where a cm's automation on top of open shift automation on down the road, combined with things like ansell, will provide the most automated environment you can have for these container platforms. Um, so it's definitely changing your seeing observe ability, ai ops getups type of philosophies Coming in these air very different manager in the past helps you seeing innovation across the whole management landscape in the communities environment because they are so different. The physics of them are different than the previous environments. We think with ACM answerable or insights product and some over analytics that we've got the right thing for this environment >>and can give us a little bit of a look forward, you know? How often should we expect to see updates on this? Of course. You mentioned getting feedback from the community from the technical preview to G A. So give us a little bit. Look, you know, what should we be expecting to see from a CME down the right the So >>the ACM team is far from done, right? So they're going to continue to rev, you know, just like we read open shift, that very, very fast base we're gonna be reading ACM and fast face. Also, you see a lot of integration between ACM. A lot of the partners were already working with in the application monitoring space and the analytics space security automation I would expect to see in the uncivil fest time frame, which is mid October, will cease, um, integration with danceable on ACM around things. That insult does very well combined with what ACM does. A sand will continue to push out on Mawr cluster management, more policy based management and certainly advancing the application life cycles that people are very interested in ruined faster. They want to move faster with a higher degree of certainty in their application. Employments on ACM is right there. >>It just final question for you, Joe, is, you know, just in the broader space, looking at management in this kind of cube con cloud, native con ecosystem final words, you want customers to understand where we are today and where we need to go down the road. >>So I think the you know, the market and industry has decided communities is the platform of future right? And certainly we were one of the earliest to invest in container management platforms with open shift were one of the first to invest in communities. We have thousands of customers running open shift back Russell Industries on geography is so we bet on that a long time ago. Now we're betting on the management automation of those environments and bringing them to scale. And the other thing I think that redhead is unique on is that we think that people gonna want to run their kubernetes environments across all different kinds of environments, whether it's on premise visible in virtual multiple public clouds, where we have offerings as well as at the edge. Right. So this is gonna be an environment that's going to be very, very ubiquitous. Pervasive, deported scale. And so the management of a nation has become a necessity. And so but had investing in the right areas to make sure that enterprises continues communities particularly open shift in all the environments that they want at the scale. >>All right. Excellent. Well, Joe, I know we'll be catching up with you and your team for answerable fest. Ah, coming in the fall. Thanks so much for the update. Congratulations to you in the team on the rapid progression of ACM now being G A. >>Thanks to appreciate it, we'll see you soon. >>All right, Stay tuned for more coverage from que con club native con 2020 in Europe, the virtual addition on still minimum and thanks, as always, for watching the Cube.

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston. It's the cube covering IBM thing brought to you by IBM. >>Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and we're here with the cubes coverage of IBM. Thank you. 2020. The global experience reaching all of the participants of the event where they are. I'm happy to welcome back one of our cube alumni, Mike Farris, who is the vice president of corporate development and strategy at red hat. Mike, it's great to see you. Likewise too. Happy to be here. All right, so what Mike, uh, you know, lots of things to talk about a few weeks back. Uh, of course the management changes happened. Uh, we're fresh off of a red hat summit. Uh, I, I had a pleasure really talking to a lot of your peers, uh, your new boss, uh, and uh, you know, many of the customers. Uh, but for our, I think audience, right? Bring us up to speed. Uh, you know, back in 2019, it, uh, the, the largest software acquisition ever, uh, completed with IBM buying red hat and there've been some management changes, uh, some people, uh, switching roles. >>And, and you've got a new title, so, uh, bring her audience speed. Sure. Absolutely. So it's, it's been an exciting several, several months as we've gone through this. Of course. Um, we knew things were going to happen, things were announced clearly with Jenny's retirement quite a while ago. Um, but certainly, you know, the Arvin announcement and then as well as having both Jim Whitehurst become president. Okay. Oh, Cormier becoming CEO of red hat. You know, it's been an exciting several months trying to try to go through this and understand, you know, what would change and frankly, what would not change. Um, I'll say from red hats perspective, having been with red hat for coming up, you're on 20 years, uh, not a lot is really changed. We're still focused on our mission of being the owner leading enterprise open source software company, uh, focusing on both taking our, our platforms, both red hat enterprise Linux and now OpenShift a Ford in the market, partnering around middleware components, hardening around our management, uh, as well as our storage elements. >>So, you know, our mission hasn't changed and that's kind of one of the key aspects of this. I'll say that certainly, you know, with Arvind now as CEO of IBM and Jim Whitehurst is president of IBM along with Oh for me or being, you know, CEO of red hat and we've got a really strong leadership group in place at IBM that understands what red hat is, what we mean to the customer and just as importantly what we mean to the open source community. Uh, and, and that type of action and, and, and drive is certainly something that, that we think, you know, that leadership in place will help to ensure that the value we've delivered to customers, frankly from day one back when we launched red hat enterprise Linux or red hat advanced server, frankly, uh, it's something that, that we'll be able to continue to do and drive in the community and with the customers as we move forward. >>Yeah. Mike, it's interesting when we look out, uh, on the, the ecosystems and happening out there, we understand for customers sometimes it might be challenging to say, Hey, I listened to 10 different vendors and they all say the same words. I've got multi hybrid cloud, digital modernization, things like that. Well, with our hat as a, as an analyst firm, we kind of say, okay, everybody does things a little bit different. Do you know if you look at the big cloud players, they are all playing different games. When we looked at the IBM strategy pre acquisition of red hat and red hat, they line up pretty well, you know, red hat. Yeah, very much. At summit it was open hybrid cloud. Uh, when I look at IBM, maybe a little bit more talk of multicloud than hybrid. Well, but hybrid is long bend a piece of it. >>So yeah. Okay. Give us a little bit of the inside, you know, with your strategy hat on it. How much had it been okay. Strong alignment, obviously IBM and red hat decades. Um, but you know, there are some places where, uh, you need to make sure that people understand that, you know, red sat still please markers with all the clouds. And of course IBM has services that span many places, but they also have, you know, products and services that are, uh, it was particular to IBM thing. Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's important to note, and this is well established that, you know, one of the core, uh, justifications and reasons for the acquisition was really around red hats. A physician, not just an open source, but in the hybrid cloud. Um, we've been talking about that for sure many years in fact, before most of the vendor's name has predicted up. >>Um, uh, but just as importantly, I think if you look back at Marvin Krishna's announcements on frankly the day that he was named CEO, uh, you know, he starts talking about things like IBM's focus being hybrid. Yeah. AI. And how did those things come together and who were the participants in that value being delivered? Certainly from red hat's perspective is, as we've said, we've been talking about hybrid and delivering on hybrid for many years now. Now that's being, being pushed as part of the IBM overall message. Um, and so certainly being able to leverage that value and extend it throughout the ecosystem that IBM brings throughout the software that IBM has and their services. You know, certainly we think we've got a, a good opportunity to really take that message broader in the market. Um, you know, with again, with, with both Paul and Jim, president and CEO of red hat working together and we'll be able to take that and leverage that capability throughout all of IBM generally. >>Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the AI piece because one of the things that really struck me, thumb it often we're talking about plot worms and we're talking about infrastructure. And while that is my background, we understand that the reason infrastructure exists is because my Apple, that application and one of the most important piece of applications or data. So, you know, red hat of course has a strong history with hi guys, uh, to applications and data. You, you've got an operating system as you know, one of the core pieces of what you're doing. And when I think about IBM and its strengths, well the first thing I probably think of is services. But the second thing I think of was all of the businesses productivity, uh, the databases, you know, all these applications that IBM has. I read it over the years, uh, wondering if we can just click down one notch and you talk about, uh, you know, hybrid cloud and AI and everything. >>How are IBM and red hat helping customers build all of those new applications go through those transformations, uh, to really be modern enterprises? Yeah, so certainly if you look at red hat's history where we focused very much on building the platforms and again, whether that was red hat, enterprise, Linux open shift or J boss, you know, our focus has been how can we make a standardized platform, it will work across the industry regardless of use case or industry verdict. IBM, you know, has both platforms as well as a lot of investment in capabilities in the higher level value services as well as the specializations. And use of these applications and platforms for specific vertical industries. And a lot of what they've been able to bring to the table with your investments in Watson and AI as well as a lot of their data services has certainly start to come to fruition. >>And when we start taking these two in combination and applying, for example, a focus on developers, developer tools, being able to bring a value to not just uh, the operations folks, but also the developer side and really put a lot of the AI capabilities cross that we're starting to see, you know, accelerated value, accelerated use. And then if you layer that on top of a hybrid approach, you know, we've got a very strong message that crosses everything from, you know, existing applications to net new applications before developing from their DevOps cycle all the way through their operation cycle at the bottom end where they're, they're actually trying to do boy cross multiple platforms, multiple infrastructures, and keep everything consistently managed, secured and operated. And that's, that's really the overall message that we're seeing as we talk about this together with IBM. All right. So, Mike, you touched on some of the products that that red hat, uh, offers in the portfolio. >>Uh, it was, it was a real focus at summit, not really to talk about the announcements, you know, a week before a summit two came out. Yeah. Uh, OpenShift bar dog four wasn't a big w blob. Uh, you know, give us the update on really the red hat portfolio and you know, where are those points? You know, IBM is helping red hat scale. Yeah. So certainly you've touched on some of the big ones, right? Well, OpenShift itself with the four dot. Four release brings a lot of new capabilities, uh, that are being brought forward to those customers. I have a better management, better capabilities and what they can do from monitoring service, et cetera. Um, but certainly also things like what we're doing with OpenShift virtualization, which was another announcement. There were, we're actually doing, you know, bringing a game, changing capability to the market, uh, and enabling customers that have both existing, uh, virtual virtualized environments and also new or, or migrated or transformed a container, native environments and running those on the same platform. >>With the same management infrastructure, we see that as huge to be able to simplify the management capabilities, understand cost and be able to control those environments in a much more consistent way. Uh, secondly, uh, you know, one of the big things that's been happening is really around advanced container management. What we're calling an ACM. Uh, this is, this is a good example of how red hat and IBM have worked together, uh, to bring existing IBM capabilities and what they had called a multi cluster management or MCM and bring those not just into red hat yes. Part of our platforms, but also have red hat take the step of open sourcing that and making it part of the industry standard through open source community. So being able to take that type of value that IBM had matured, take it through red hat into the open source community, but simultaneously deliver it to our customers. >>Yeah. Open shift and make it part of the platform. It's something we really see as, as a huge value add. Mmm. We're also doing a lot more with hyperscalers, especially in the space of OpenShift managed services. Uh, you saw some of those last week and I would encourage everyone to go out and, and look at the Paul Cormier and Scott Guthrie announcements that we did. There was a keynote, a video that you can go review. Uh, but, but certainly, uh, certainly the focus on how do we work with these hyperscalers inclusive of IBM, uh, to make open shift and much more fluid deployment option, have it more, more service oriented, a both on premise and off premise so the customers can actually, uh, work together better in it. Yeah. A red hat I think has always done a really good job of highlighting those partnerships. It's way easy on the outside to talk about the competitive nature of the industry. >>And I remember a few years ago, a red hat made, you know, a strong partnership with AWS. You mentioned, you know, Scott Guthrie from Microsoft. Well, okay. Not Satya Nadella. Okay. Love it last year, but Microsoft long partner. Oh, okay. Of course, with IBM back to the earliest days, uh, and with red hat or, uh, you know, in the much more recent days, uh, there was those partnerships. So critically important. ACM definitely an area, uh, we want to watch it. It was really question we had had, if you look at last year, Microsoft announced Azure, uh, there are lots of solutions announced as to how am I going to manage in this multicloud world. Um, because it's not, my piece is everywhere. It's now I need to manage a lot of things that are out of my control from different vendors and hopefully we learned a lot of the lessons from the multi-vendor era that will be fixed in the multi cloud era. >>Oh, absolutely. And you know, arc was part of our discussion with Scott Guthrie last week or Paul's discussion and you'll see a demo of that. But I would also expect that you'll see more things coming from us markers as well. Right. You know, this is about building a platform, a hybrid platform that works in a multicloud world and being able to describe that in a very consistent way. Manage it. You were at entitled it in a very consistent way of across all the vendors, inclusive of both self and managed services, only one option. And so we're very focused on doing that. Um, IBM, certainly AXA assisting in that, helping grow it. But overall this focus is really about red has perspective about making that hybrid, right? the leading hybrid platform, the leading Coobernetti's. Okay. uh, in the industry. And that's, that's really where starting from with OpenShift. >>All right. So, so Mike, we started out the discussion talking about some of the changes and you know, where red hat stays, red hat and where the company is working together. Obviously the leadership changes. Oh, we're a big piece. Uh, congratulations you, you got, you know, a new role. I've seen quite a few people, uh, with some new titles. Uh, you know, w which is always nice to see. Uh, the, the people that have been working for a long time. The other area where seems from the outside there coordinated effort is around the covert response. So, you know, I've seen the, the public letters from, from Arvin Krishna of course. red hat and Paul Cormier's letter. Well, he is there. Uh, IBM was one of the first companies that we had heard from, uh, that said, Hey, you know, we're not going to RSA conference this year. >>We're moving digital, uh, with the events. So no real focus on them boys. And then of course boarding customers. Yeah. How does that covert response happen? And am I right from the outside that it looks like there, there is a bit of United right attack, this global pandemic response. It is a, you know, I think there's two levels to this. Certainly between red hat and IBM were well coordinated. Um, within, within red hat we have, uh, we have teams that are specifically dedicated to making sure, yeah, our associates and more importantly, uh, our customers and the overall communities are well-served through this. As you said earlier in the interview, uh, certainly we hold back on any significant product announcements at summit, including with some of our partners merely because we wanted to maintain this focus on how can we help everyone through this very unfortunate experience. >>Um, and so, you know, as obviously a lot of us, all of us are sitting at home now globally. Uh, the focus is very much how do we stay connected or we keep the business flowing as much as possible through this and, and, and keep people safe and secure in their environments and make sure that we serve both the customers and the associates. Yes. Awesome away. So there's a lot of sensitivity and we want to make sure that, you know, the industry and the overall world knows, uh, that we're very focused on keeping people healthy and moving forward as we, as we work through this together as a world. Yeah. Well, Mike Ferris, thank you so much for the update. It's been been a pleasure catching up. Great. Thanks dude. Appreciate it. All right. Stay tuned for lots more coverage from IBM. Think 20, 20. The global digital experience. Okay. To a minimum. And thank you. We're watching. Thank you.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020, the digital experience. Welcome to the program, Dinesh Nirmal, who's the chief product officer for Cloud Paks inside IBM. Dinesh, nice to see you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu, really appreciate you taking the time. >> All right, so, I've been to many IBM shows, and of course, I'm an analyst in the cloud space, so I'm familiar with IBM Cloud Paks, but maybe just refresh our audience minds here, what they are, how long have they been around for, what clouds do they live on, and maybe what's new in 2020 that if somebody had looked at this in the past that they might not know about IBM Cloud Pak? >> Yeah, so thanks Stu. So to start with, let me say that Cloud Paks are cloud agnostic. So, the whole goal is that you build once and it can run anywhere. That is the basic mantra, or principle, that we want to build Cloud Paks with. So they are, look at them as a set of micro services containerized in a form that it can run on any public cloud or behind a firewall. So that's the whole premise of Cloud Paks. So, when you go back to Cloud Paks, it's an integrated set of services that solve a specific set of business problems and also accelerates building each set of applications and solutions. That's what Cloud Paks brings. So, especially in this environment Stu, think about it. If I'm an enterprise, my goal is how can I accelerate and how can I automate? Those are the two key things that comes to my mind if I am a C-level exec at an enterprise. So, Cloud Paks enables that, meaning you already have a set of stitched together services that accelerates the application development. It automates a lot of things for you. So you today have a lot of applications running on multiple clouds or behind the firewall. How do you manage those, right? Cloud Paks will help. So, let me give you one example since you asked specifically on Cloud Paks. Let's take Cloud Pak for Data. The set of services that is available in Cloud Pak for Data will make it easier for all the way from ingest to visualization. There's a set of services that you can use, so you don't have to go build a service or a product or user product for ingest, then use another product for ETL, use another product for building models, another product to manage those models. The Cloud Pak for Data will solve all the problems end to end. It's a rich set of services that will give you all the value that you need all the way from ingest to visualization. And with any personas, whether you are a data engineer, data scientist, or you are a business analyst, you all can collaborate through the Cloud Paks. So that's the two minute answer to your question what Cloud Paks is. >> Awesome, thanks Dinesh. Yeah, I guess you pointed out something right at the beginning there. I hear IBM Cloud Pak and I think IBM Cloud. But you said specifically this is really cloud agnostic. So this week is Think, last week I was covering Red Hat Summit, so I heard a lot about multicloud deployments, talked to the rail team, talked to the open chip team. So, help me understand where do Cloud Pak fit when we're talking about these multicloud employments? And is there some connection with the partnership that, of course, IBM has with Red Hat? >> Of course, so all Cloud Paks are optimized for OpenShift, meaning how do we use the set of services that OpenShift gives, the container management that OpenShift provides? So as we build containers or micro services, how do we make sure that we are optimizing or taking advantage of OpenShift? So, for example, the set of services like logging, monitoring, security, all those services metering that comes from OpenShift is what we are using as Cloud Pak. So Cloud Paks are optimized for OpenShift. From an automation perspective, how do we use Ansible, right? So, all the value that Red Hat and OpenShift brings is what Cloud Pak is built on. So if you look at as a layer as a Lego, the base Lego is OpenShift and rail. And then on top of it sit Cloud Paks, and applications and solutions on top of it. So it's, if I look at layer base, the base Lego layer is OpenShift and Red Hat rail. >> Well, great, that's super important because, one of the things we've been looking at for a while is, you talk about hybrid cloud, you talk about multicloud, and often it's not that platform, that infrastructure discussion, but the biggest challenge for companies today is how do I build new applications, how do I modernize what I have? So, sounds like this is exactly where you're targeting to help people through that transformation that they're going through. >> Yeah, exactly Stu, because if you look at it, in the past products were siloed. You build a product, you use a set of specs to build it. It was siloed. And customers becomes the software integrators, or system integrators, where they have to take the different products, put it together. So even if I am focused on the data space, or AI space, before I had to bring in three or four or five different products, make it all work together to build a model, deploy the model, manage the model, the lifecycle of the model, the lifecycle of the data. But the Cloud Paks bring it all in one box, where out of the box you are ready to go. So your time to value is much more higher with Cloud Paks because you already get a set of stitched together services that gets working right out of the box. >> So, I love the idea of out of the box. When I think of cloud native, modern application development, simplicity is not the first thing I think of, Dinesh. So, help me understand. So many customers, it's the tools, the skillsets, they don't necessarily have the experience. How is what your product set and your team's doing, help customers that deal with the ever-changing landscape and the complexity that they are faced with? >> Yeah, so the honest truth, Stu, is that enterprise applications are not an app that you create and put it on iPhone, right? I mean, it is much more complex, because it's dealing with hundreds of millions of people trying to transact with the system. You need to make sure there is a disaster recovery backup, scalability, elasticity, all those things, security, obviously, very critical piece, and multitenancy. All those things has to come together in an enterprise application. So, when people talk about simplicity, it comes at a price. So, what Cloud Paks has done, is that we have really focused on the user experience and design piece. So, you as an end-user has a great experience using the integrated set of services. The complexity piece will still be there, to some extent, because you're building a very complex multitenant enterprise application, but how do we make it easier for a developer or a data scientist to collaborate or reuse the assets, find the data much more easier, or trust the data much more easier than before? Use AI to predict a lot of the things, including bias detection, all those things. So, we are making a lot of the development, automation and acceleration easier. The complexity part will be there still, because enterprise applications tend to be complex by nature. But we are making it much more easier for you to develop, deploy, manage and govern what you are building. >> Yeah, so, how does Cloud Paks allow you to really work with the customers, focus on things like innovation, showing them the latest in the IBM software portfolio? >> Yeah, so the first piece is that we made it much more easier for the different personas to collaborate. So in the past, what is the biggest challenge, me as a data scientist had? Me as a data scientist, the biggest challenge was that getting access to the data, trusted data. Now we have put some governance around it, where by which you can get data, trusted data, much more easier using Cloud Pak for Data. Governance around the data, meaning if you have a CDO, you want to see who is using the data, how clean is the data, right? A lot of times he data might not be clean, so we want to make sure we can help with that. Now, let me move into the the line of business piece, not just the data. If I am an LOB, and I want to use, automate a lot of the process I have in today, in my enterprise, and not go through the every process automation, and go through your superior or supervisor to get approval, how do we use AI in the business process automation also? So those kind of things, you will get through Cloud Paks. Now, the other piece of Cloud Pak, if I am an IT space, right? The day-two operations, scalability, security, delivery of the software, backup and restore, how do we automate and help with that, the storage layer? Those are day-two operations. So, we are taking it all the way from day one, meaning the whole experience of setting it up, to day two, where enterprise is really worried about, making it seamless and easy using Cloud Paks, I go back to what I said in the beginning, which is out of the accelerate and automate, a lot of the work that enterprise have to do today, much more easier. >> Okay, we talked earlier in the discussion about that this can be used across multiple clouded environments. My understanding, you mentioned one of the IBM Cloud Paks, one for data. There's a number of different Cloud Paks out there. How does that work from a customer's standpoint? Do I have to choose a Cloud Pak or a specific cloud? Is it a license that goes across all of my environments? Help me understand how this deployment mechanism and its support and maintenance works. >> Right, so we have the base, obviously. I said look at it as a modular Lego model. The base is obviously open chipped and rail. On top of its cells sits a bedrock, we call, which is a common set of services and the logic to expand. On top of it sits Cloud Pak for Data, Cloud Pak for Security, Cloud Pak for Applications, there's Cloud Pak for Multicloud Management, there's Cloud Pak for Integration. So there is total of six Cloud Paks that's available, but you can pick and choose which Cloud Pak you want. So let's say you are a CDO, or you are an enterprise who want to focus on data and AI, you can just pick Cloud Pak for Data. Or let's say you are a Cloud Pak based on processes, BPM decision rules, you can go without platform automation, which gives you the set of tools. But the biggest benefits too, is that all these Cloud Paks are a set of integrated services that can all work together, sits optimized on top of open chipped. So, all of a sudden, you'll need Cloud Pak for Data, and now you want to do data, but now you want to expand it into your line of business, and you want Cloud Pak for Automation, you can bring that in. Now those two Cloud Paks works together well. Now you want to bring in Cloud Pak for Multicloud Management, because you have data, or applications running on multiple clouds, so now you can bring Cloud Pak for MCM, which is multicloud management, and those three work together. So it's all a set of integrated set of services that is optimized on top of OpenShift, which makes it much more easier for customers to bring the rich set of services together and accelerate and automate their lifecycle journey within the enterprise. >> Great, last question for you Dinesh. What new in 2020, what should customers be looking at today? Would love if you can give a little bit of guidance as to where customers should be looking at for things that might be coming a little bit down the line here, and if they want to learn more about IBM Cloud Paks, where should they be looking? >> Yeah, they want to learn more, there's www.ibm.com/cloudpaks. There's a place to go. There, all the details around Cloud Paks are there. You can also get in touch with me, and I can definitely take you to more detail. But what is coming is that, look, so we have a set of Cloud Paks, but we want to expand and make it extensible. So how do we, already it's built on an open platform, but how do we make sure our partners and ISPs can come and build on top of the base-cloud part? So that's the focus going to be, as each Cloud Pak innovate and add more value within those Cloud Paks. We also want to expand it so that our partners and our ISPs and GSIs can build on top of it. So this year, the focus is continuously innovate across the Cloud Paks, but also make it much more extensible for third parties to come and build more value on top of the Cloud Pak itself. That's one area we are focusing on. The other area's MCM, right? Multicloud management, because there is tremendous appetite for customers to move data or applications on cloud, and not only on one cloud, hybrid cloud. So how do you manage that, right? So multicloud management definitely helps on that perspective. So our focus this year is going to be one, make it extensible, make it more open, but at the same time continuously innovate on every single Cloud Pak to make that journey for customers on automating and accelerating application development easier. >> All right, well Dinesh, thank you so much. Yeah, the things that you talked about, that absolutely top of mind for customers that we talked to. Multicloud management, as you said, it was the ACM, the Advanced Cluster Management, that we heard about from the Red Hat team last week at Summit. So thank you so much for the updates. Definitely exciting to watch Cloud Pak, how you're helping customers deal with that huge, it's the opportunity but also the challenge of building their next applications, modernizing what they're doing without, still having to think about what they have from (faintly speaking), so thanks so much, great to talk with you. >> Well, thanks Stu, great talking. >> All right, lots more coverage from IBM Think 2020, the digital experience. I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and OpenShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Miniman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, well, That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. >>So that, I think, by far   >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the RHEL side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on OpenShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on OpenShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on OpenShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> That's one. On the RHEL side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. 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>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of Red Hat Summit. Of course, it's happening digitally. We're interviewing Red Hat executives, customers and partners from around the globe who can are gonna be part of this event. And happy to welcome back to the program. One of our Cube alumni, Joe Fitzgerald, who is the vice president and general manager of the management business unit at Red Hat. Last time I caught up with Joe is that answerable fest last year. And, uh, Joseph, fourth year in a row, You've been on the Cube here at Red Hat Summit. Thanks so much for joining us again. >>Thanks for having me back. Still, I'm happy to be here, >>All right, So, Joe, I think it actually makes sense for us to kind of pick up the conversation where we left off and answer both best last year, so answerable fast. It's all about automation. You're really helping with digital transformation. What companies are going through in today's day and age automation and being able to be more agile. Of course, everybody, for the most part, is working from home, being able to enable things remote. The adoption of cloud is even more consideration. So what part there? And since we last talked, you know, obviously things have changed for everyone some, but give us the latest from your organization. >>Thanks to you know, when we met and so fast in Atlanta last fall, we were talking about strategic use of our nation. Um, in today's current crisis, if you will. There's a lot of folks who are leaning on automation in a much more immediate and tactical way. We're seeing a lot of automation being used by folks to the boy, either the infrastructure they need to deal with capacity and surge demand that they have. Right now, we're seeing people use it for things like working from home because they can't get access to gear we're seeing for bursting to public clouds because they can add more physical equipment, perhaps in the data center. So last year we were excited to talk to you about strategic automation. That's still really important. But right now a lot of folks have more pressing matters in terms of automating to get through the current crisis coming to you from northern New Jersey, which is certainly a hot spot on, but certainly a lot appreciation for the folks on the front lines. They're taking care of us and protecting us and things like that. We want to do everything we can as a company, as red hat, to enable folks to do whatever they need to do to be able to get through this crisis. >>Yeah, absolutely. Joe Ah, very important topics there. In the keynote for Red Hat Summit, there's discussion of your group, and of course, management has always been a critical piece of how we look at overall i t. When I first became an analyst, the joke was, Well, you know, security and management. We can always kind of okay, those pillars is two things we need to do is an industry to make things better. Ah, specifically, we've been talking for years about the growth of container ization and kubernetes. Of course, Red hat, strong leadership position with open shift. My understanding that if I heard right from the keynote, it's the advanced cluster. Management is the new piece. Can you give us a little bit about, you know, the team, the technology, how this fits into the overall red hat portfolio. >>Sure, so we're super excited around advanced cluster management. It turns out that you know, we have a lot of customers that are running open shift to other container based applications, and as they evolve, they inevitably end up with multiple clusters based on separation of duties or lines of business, perhaps for distributed availability zones and things like that with their clusters, so they inevitably back into a multi cluster scenario. What we've done is working with IBM would develop some very rich technology around advanced management for multi cluster environments built from scratch for container environments and kubernetes. We worked with IBM. We move that technology over to Red Hat. But when the process of doing two things one is we're announcing tech preview here at Summit of that technology and where the process we're open sourcing that technology because we're red hat and everything we do is open source. We're going to take some of the most advanced container management cluster management technology in the world that we've gotten from IBM, and we're going to open source that we're excited here is that we're gonna provide this red hat, offering advanced cluster management to help people who are struggling with managing clusters. >>Yeah, Joe, absolutely a super important point point. Anybody that's watched this space for the last few years, simplicity has not been the word that people have used for it. And over the last year there's been a lot of announcements from some of the major players in the industry about how do I manage those multiple cluster environment? So, Joe, if I think back two years ago Ah, it was, you know, here's the best way to run kubernetes. And when you talk to a lot of customers, it was well, they were starting with often spinning their own because that was what was available. And the number one choice that I usually heard from customers was, Oh, if I'm a Red Hat customer, started using open shift and start using open ships everywhere, fast forward to where we are today. Of course, you have lots of customers running open shift, but also in the public clouds. If I'm using Amazon, Google, Microsoft, other platform environments, often there's a native kubernetes, and I need to manage across those environments. So do I understand right? ACM Is that going toe? Help me not only with my open shift but as it moves forward. Also, manage some of those other kubernetes environment. And how does Red Hat approach this kind of the same or differently? From what I hear from from Microsoft with Arc with VM Ware with Andrew >>So ACM vessels Management from Red Hat supports any standard kubernetes environment. One of the advantages we have working in an open shift environments Open shift has a lot of functionality sides Kuban aids. In other words, it's already a layer of sophistication built on top of kubernetes, so open shift itself provides a lot of management automation. Now you had advanced cluster management on top of that, which will be able to import other communities clusters from other environments. But the ability for its take advantage of the sophistication that's already in open shift and then leverage things like Hansel Automation and then some of the management. SAS Services cloud at red dot com We're connected customer experience the ability to proactively look at open shift clusters and be ableto some cases tell people about problems they're having before they even realize they have the problem. That combination of management automation on top of the already rich open shift environment really puts us. A couple of you know, runs up in terms of capabilities. I'll be on a standard kubernetes vanilla. Our >>yeah, so one of the reasons I was looking forward to this conversation is one of the things that we've been looking at for the last few years is how is multi cloud the same or different from what we have done back, You know, 10 15 years ago with multi vendor. And I think anybody that's been around long enough and you talk about management in a multi vendor environment and you think about the leading tools from a software standpoint. We're out there and it gives us a little bit of flashbacks, and it's not. Not in a good way. So what have we learned as an industry? And, you know, you talked about it, you know, integration with answerable all the automation, you know, how do we make sure that we aren't repeating the sins of the past with these new generation of management tools? >>Well, what we've seen is that enterprises are inherently going to be hybrid and multi cloud red has been talking about open hybrid cloud for almost eight years. Right? So our CTO Paul Cormier, you know, sort of anticipated this, which was pretty insightful eight years ago because everybody thought and people gonna move exclusively cloud it would have any data centers and maybe hardware anywhere. That's why you've got data centers edge multiple public clouds with services that are all over those different footprints. We believe that, you know, unlike the past when you had heterogeneous systems management, right where you have different platforms that we're trying to manage is the lowest common denominator is a common platform. Now what Red hat is offering is open shift, which will run on all the public clouds, as well as on your physical and virtual hardware in the data centers at the edge. So it basically provides the consistency, which means that the management can then talk to a consistent environment, provided much higher level hybrid cloud management and trying to either have silos of different management tools by cloud by vendor by environment, um, and then try to Federated at the lowest common denominator. You'll see kubernetes management tools, for example, that have to use the lowest, you know, sort of common denominator, which is the straight kubernetes AP eyes. We could take advantage of those, but also the additional functionality That open shift brings in, for example, with the other kids abilities. It allows us to have a higher level of management but provide that consistency by having the same hybrid cloud platform this case. Coburn's shift run across those different environments. >>Yeah, so what? One of the things that also consumer concerns me a little bit as the industry when they talk about kubernetes. It's very much a discussion of the infrastructure piece, but we know this move to cloud native is very much about the application and the application development. So help me understand a little bit how that overall story for kind of the app Dev see I CD all those pieces fit into your story. I was one of the major points of discussion. You know, the best. >>Yeah, so So it is really all about the application. People really don't want to think about the infrastructure. They don't think about the application. That's really what's driving their business and their differentiation in the case of open shift, but open shift provides application. Lifecycle management for kubernetes environments are advanced. Cluster management sort of takes that a step further and allows you to extend that life cycle so that you can deploy applications based on policy to different environments based on your needs. Keeps compliance. All those things enforce regardless of how many different places the traction application. So it's not just a Z Z as taking an application to going into one location. People want to be able to continuously update their applications and deploy it to all of the places that it needs to be there based on availability, a proximity security environments and things like that represents a hard challenge. And so that's why some of the tools, like Advanced cluster Management, are exactly designed to help those kind of new applications. Yeah, >>all right, Joe, you talked about that. Some of the technology for for ACM came from the IBM side. Give us the update. When you look at the IBM Cloud portfolio, how is your group really interacting and supporting and working with the overall IBM solutions? >>So IBM has a very robust portfolio and they have you know a number of the cloud packs in their portfolio that address things like applications and data management, things like that. So IBM, in this case, I developed some advanced cluster management technology, but it was not open source. It wasn't available to other folks. One of the challenges with that is that we believe, as red Hat that the innovations happening in open source. If you develop something in a closed, proprietary way, maybe the best thing in the world today, a year, two years, three years from now there are other projects and there are other technologies have being collaborated on open that are going to make. But we leave you behind, right? So we think open is the future. So in this case, and working with IBM, we took some very advanced technology. We moved it over to Red Hat, and now we're in the process of open sourcing it, as well as providing an enterprise consumable version. More technology in Red Hat Advanced Cluster Management for kubernetes, IBM again has to support a much broader, diverse environment, right in terms of everything from mainframes to edge and containers and V M's and physical machines applications that span decades, So they have a much bigger sort of, you know, target environment that they have to work in. Red Hat's focused on the future. We're really sort of skating to where the puck is, if you will use a you know, hockey analogy where basically, we're trying to anticipate what enterprises are going to need and address that with not only the platforms with management automation, you're going to need to be successful with the cloud. >>Yeah, Joe, I want I want you to bring it into your customers and you talk about all these changes that are happening in the landscape and how they manage it. Any insight you can give as to, you know, organizational structures. You know, I remember last year at Summit I talked to a number of companies going through digital transformation. And, you know, we know that there is as much if not more organizational change that needs happen along with the technology pieces. So from your world, you know who's kind of leading the charge, what skill sets do people need to either, you know, bring to it or learn new on And you know, our companies, you know, taking advantage of >>Well, as they say, developers are sort of the new kingmakers, right? In some ways. And so you know the tools that you've always said people process and technology, right? And I know as software companies get very, very excited about technology, but it turns out that the people, the process here way people building their applications, Way Dev ops and see I CD. It's a very, very sort of different environment for management automation tools, you know and sort of. The relationship between teams has changed and will change more, by the way. And so one of things we're trying to do. You see this with answerable, but you're also seeing this with Advanced Cluster Management is ability to delegate and give different kinds of operational and management capabilities to the teams, whether it's like business developers, QE teams. So it's fundamentally changing the way that the processes were working. That requires that the tools map to those new team structures. There's no new processes on, and that's what I think's going on it fundamentally different, and one of things I think you're going to see is management tools that were built in the past for these were the old style organizing are not going to fare well in the new World, where these processes and the team structures are changing. >>All right, So, Joe, before I want to get some feedback from you on how your technologies and teams they're helping with the code 19 piece. But let's just wrap up the ACM discussion before we do that. So you said it's a tech preview. S 01 of things that really nice is when you move things to open source, the community gets pretty good visibility as to when things were getting releases. New features down the pike. So what should we be looking for as an industry for ACM? When that rolls out, how two people start getting their hands on it and you know, what does that look like? >>So there's really two paths there. One is from a tech preview point of view. You know, customers can get access to the technology right and see it in their environment and give us feedback. The fact that it's been developed for the past two years probably constitutes hundreds of years of developer, um, you know, time in it. It's not Alfa technology. It's pretty robust. So even though we're calling a tech preview, we anticipate that it's going to be production ready in short fashion. It will take us a little bit of time to open. Source. The technology's red hat has a history of open sourcing technologies that we acquire. Each one varies in terms of what's in the code licenses, how it's structured, how it should be open source. We just don't back the truck up and take a bunch of code and put in a repository is actually a thoughtful process about the way that's projects or set up a communities they should be in. We're going through that process now, but customers will be able to take advantage of it in short fashion, and I think they're gonna find a very high level of maturity, given how long and how much. I mean it's work of this, >>you know, a really important piece is there. The other one closed the discussion with how we started off. Obviously, you know, workers and companies are having to make changes and be more flexible than ever in response to the Kobe 19 endemic. What are some of the pieces of technologies and services Ah, that that you want to highlight as toe that are helping companies really adjust to what is happening in today's world. >>Well, Red Hat is always been a very conscientious company. And in my particular area, one of things we're doing is with sensible. We're trying to enable folks to use automation providing free workshop, free workshops and access to code playbooks and things for different environments. If you think about the different kinds of industries right now, some are struggling with no smaller workforces work at home. Other ones are under tremendous pressure to deliver services to help keep us safe and protect us. So we're trying to provide as much a so we can in terms of automation, enabling people to use free, open source innovation on automation to enable work from home to do everything from creative TVNZ toe, you know, set their statuses and communicate between teams in this new environment, but to burst into a lot of clouds in some cases because somewhere trying to scale because their business is now change but is under tremendous pressure. You see that delivery services and things like that. So we're trying to to help as much as we can with automation is something that could be immediately helpful and has been some of these other projects. You know, somebody's doing a transformation, and they're designing new applications as much longer. Burn to it. Whereas automation is needed today by companies under duress, you can help them accelerate, um, and connect the their their new work at home environments. Sweetie Automation. Helping a lot. The other thing I want to mention is that we have free capabilities like red hat insights that can actually access systems for security. The last thing you need is a security breach or some other problem. Why you're dealing with fighting fires. There are bad actors out there. We've seen a few already eso insides ability to look at systems and tell people what their current posture is. So they immediately, quickly, whether with our tools or some other tool they have. We're trying to do as much as we can to help our customers for this really tough time. >>Well, Joe, thank you so much for the updates. Ah, congratulations to the team on the progress and absolutely very important topics to help customers that need to react even faster than ever in today's time. Extra funding. I'm stew. Minimum lots more coverage from Red Hat Summit on the Cube. Check out the cube dot net. And thank you for watching. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Yeah. Hi. And welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 on stew. Minimum in this year's event, of course, happened globally. Which means we're talking to Red Hat executives, customers and partners where they are around the globe on and happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni, Badani, who is the senior vice president. Cloud platforms at Red Hat is great to see you. >>Yeah, thanks a lot for having me back on. >>Yeah, absolutely. So you know, the usual wall to wall coverage that we do in San Francisco? Well, it's now the global digital, a little bit of a dispersed architecture to do these environments. Which reminds me a little bit of your world. So, you know, the main keynote stage. You know, Paul's up There is the, you know, new CEO talking about open hybrid cloud. And of course, the big piece of that is, you know, open shift and the various products, you know, in the portfolio there, So ah, personal. We know there's not, you know, big announcements of, you know, launches and the like, But your team and the product portfolio has been going through a lot of changes. A lot of growth since last time we connected. So bring us up to speed as to what we should know about. >>Sure. Thanks s Oh, yes, not not a huge focus around announcements, this summit, especially given everything going on in the world around us today. Ah, but you know, that being said, we continue our open shift journey. We started that well, you know, many years ago. But in 2015 and we had our first release both the stone kubernetes in a container focused platform. Ever since then, you know, we continue to groan to evolve Atlassian count now over 2000 customers globally. I trusted the platform in industries that literally every industry and also obviously every job around around the globe. So that's been great to see you. And last summit, we actually announced a fairly significant enhancement of a platform with a large fortune before big focus around created manageability ability to use operators which is, you know, kubernetes concept to make applications much more manageable. um, you know, when they're being run natively within within the platform, we continue to invest. There s so there's a new release off the platform. Open shift 4.4 based on kubernetes 1.17 big made available to our customers globally. And then really, sort of this this notion of over the air updates right to create a platform that is almost autonomous in nature, you know, acts more like your your your mobile phone in the way you can manage and and update and upgrade. I think that's a key value proposition that, you know, we're providing to our customers. So we're excited to see that and then be able to share that with you. >>Yeah, so a chef won't want to dig into that a little bit. So one of the discussions we've had in the industry for many years is how much consistency there needs to be across my various environments. We know you know Kubernetes is great, but it is not a silver bullet. You know, customers will have clusters. They will have different environments. I have what I do in my data centers or close. I'm using things in the public clouds and might be using different communities offering. So you know, as you said, there's things that Red Hat is doing. But give us a little insight into your customers as to how should they be thinking about it? How do they manage it? One of the new pieces that we're building it into a little bit, of course, from a management sand point is ACM, which I know open shift today, but going toe support some of the other kubernetes options you know down the road. So how should customers be thinking about this? How does Red Hat think about managing? Did this ever complex world >>Yes, So Student should have been talking about this for several years now, right with regard to just the kind of the customers are doing. And let's start with customers for us, because it's all about you know, the value for them so that this year's summit we're announcing some innovation award winners, right? So a couple of interesting ones BMW and Ford, um, you know BMW, you know, building It's next generation autonomous driving platform using containers. And then, you know, police Massive data platform an open ship for doing a lot of interesting work with regard to, uh, bringing together. It's a development team taking advantage of existing investments in hardware and so on, You know, the in place, you know, with the platform. But also, increasingly, companies that are you know, for example, in all accept. All right, so we've got the Argentine Ministry of Health. We've got a large electricity distribution company adopting containers, adopting middleware technology, for example, on open shift until great value. Right. So network alerts when there's electricity outrage going from three minutes to 10 seconds. And so, as you now see more and more customers doing, you know, more and more if you will mission critical activities on these platforms to your points to your question is a really good one is not got clusters running in multiple markets, right? Perhaps in their own data center, across multiple clouds and managing these clusters at scale, it becomes, you know, more, more critical up. And so, you know, we've been doing a bunch of work with regard to the team, and I actually joined us from IBM has been working on this. Let's remember technology for a while, and it's part of Red Hat. We're now releasing in technology preview. Advanced cluster management trying to solve address questions around. What does it mean to manage the lifecycle of the application process? Clusters. How do I monitor and imbue cluster help? You know, regardless of you know, where they run. How do I have consistent security and compliance for my policies across the different clusters. So really excited, right? It is a really interesting technology. It's probably most advanced placement. That's our market. What? IBM working on it. We know. Well, before you know, the team from from there, you know, joined us. And now we're making it much more >>widely available. Yeah, actually, I just want one of things that really impressed some of those customers. First off. Congratulations. 2000 you know, great milestone there. And yeah, we've had We're gonna have some of the opportunity to talk on the cube. Some of those essential services you talk Ministry of Health. Obviously, with a global pandemic on critically environment, energy companies need to keep up and running. I've got Vodafone idea also from India, talking about how communication service is so essential. Pieces and definitely open shift. You know, big piece of this story asst to how they're working and managing and scaling. Um, you know, everybody talks about scale for years, but the current situation around the globe scale something that you know. It's definitely being stressed and strained and understood. What? What? What's really important? Um, another piece. Really interesting. Like to dig in a little bit here. Talk about open shift is you know, we talk kubernetes and we're talking container. But there's still a lot of virtualization out there. And then from an application development standpoint, there's You know what? Let's throw everything away and go all serverless on there. So I understand. Open shift. Io is embracing the full world and all of the options out there. So help us walk through how Red Hat maybe is doing things a little bit differently. And of course, we know anything right Does is based on open source. So let's talk about those pieces >>Yes, to super interesting areas for us. Um, one is the work we're doing based on open source project called Kube Vert, and that's part of the CN CF incubating projects. And that that is the notion off bringing virtualization into containers. And what does that mean? Obviously There are huge numbers of workloads running in which machines globally and more more customers want, you know, one control plane, one environment, one abstraction to manage workloads, whether they're running in containers or in IBM, I believe you sort of say, Can we take workloads that are running in these, uh, give, um, based which machines or, uh, VMS running in a VM based environment and then bring them natively on, run them as containers and managed by kubernetes orchestrate across this distributed cluster that we've talked about? I've been extremely powerful, and it's a very modern approach to modernizing existing applications as well as thinking about building new services. And so that's a technology that we're introducing into the platform and trying to see some early customer interest. Um, around. So, >>you know, I've got ah, no, I'm gonna have a breakout with Joe Fernandez toe talk about this a little bit, but you know what a note is you're working on. That is, you're bringing a VM into the container world and what red hat does Well, because you know your background and what red hat does is, you know, from an operating system you're really close to the application. So one of my concerns, you know, from early days of virtualization was well, let's shut things in a VM and leave it there and not make any changes as opposed to What you're describing is let's help modernize things. You know, I saw one of the announcements talking about How do I take job of workloads and bring them into the cloud? There's a project called Marcus. So once again, do I hear you right? You're bringing V M's into the container world with help to move towards that journey, to modernize everything so that we were doing a modern platform, not just saying, Hey, I can manage it with the tool that I was doing before. But that application, that's the important piece of it. >>Yeah, and it's a really good point, you know, We've you know, so much to govern, probably too little time to do it right, because the one that you touched on is really interesting. Project called caucuses right again. As you rightly pointed out, everything that is open source up, and so that's a way for us to say, Look, if we were to think about Java and be able to run that in a cloud native way, right? And be able to run, um, that natively within a container and be orchestrated again by kubernetes. What would that look like? Right, How much could be reduced density? How much could be improved performance around those existing job applications taking advantage off all the investments that companies have made but make that available in kubernetes and cloud native world. Right? And so that's what the corpus project is about. I'm seeing a lot of interest, you know, and again, because the open source model right, You don't really have companies that are adopting this, right? So there's I think there's a telecom company based out of Europe that's talking about the work that they're already doing with this. And I already blogged about it, talking about, you know, the value from a performance and use of usability perspective that they're getting with that. And then you got So you couple this idea off. How do I take BMC? Bring them into contempt? Right? Right. Existing workloads. Move that in. Run that native check. Right? Uh, the next one. How do I take existing java workloads and bring them into this modern cloud native Kubernetes space world, you know, making progress with that orchestra check. And then the third area is this notion off several lists, right? Which is, you know, I've got new applications, new services. I want to make sure that they're taking advantage, appropriate resources, but only the exact number of resources that require We do that in a way that's native to kubernetes. Right? So we're been working on implementing a K native based technologies as the foundation as the building blocks, um, off the work we're doing around serving and eventing towards leading. Ah, more confortable several institution, regardless of where you run it across any off your platform prints up. And that will also bring the ability to have functions that made available by really any provider in that same platform. So So if you haven't already to put all the pieces together right that we were thinking about this is the center of gravity is a community space platform that we make fully automated, that we make it very operational, make it easy for different. You know, third party pieces to plug in, writes to sort of make sure that it's in trouble in modular and at the same time that start layering on additional Kim. >>Yeah, I'm a lot of topics. As you said, it's Siachin. I'm glad on the serverless piece we're teasing out because it is complicated. You know, there are some that were just like, Well, from my application developer standpoint, I don't >>need to >>think about all that kubernetes and containers pieces because that's why I love it. Serverless. I just developed to it, and the platform takes care of it. And we would look at this year to go and say, Well, underneath that What is it? Is it containers? And the enter was Well, it could be containers. It depends what the platform is doing. So, you know, from from Red Hat's standpoint, you're saying open shift server lists, you know? Yes, it's kubernetes underneath there. But then I heard you talk about, you know, live aware of it is so, um, I saw there's, you know, a partner of Red Hat. It's in the open source community trigger mesh, which was entering one of the questions I had. You know, when I talk to people about serverless most of the time, it's AWS based stuff, not just lambda lots of other services. You know, I didn't interview with Andy Jassy a few years ago, and he said if I was to rebuild AWS today, everything would be built on serverless. So might some of those have containers and kubernetes under it? Maybe, but Amazon might do their own thing, so they're doing really a connection between that. So how does that plug in with what you're doing? Open shift out. All these various open sourced pieces go together. >>Yes, I would expect for us to have partnerships with several startups, right? You know you name, you know, one in our ecosystem. You know, you can imagine as your functions, you know, running on our serverless platform as well as functions provided by any third party, including those that are built and by red hat itself, Uh, you know, for the portal within this platform. Because ultimately, you know, we're building the platform to be operational, to be managed at scale to create greater productively for developments. Right? So for example, one of things we've been working on we are in the area of developer tools. Give the customers ability. Do you have you know, the product that we have is called cordon Ready workspaces. But essentially this notion off, you know, how can we take containers and give work spaces that are easy for remote developers to work with? Great example. Off customer, actually, in India that's been able to rapidly cut down time to go from Dev Productions weeks, you know, introduced because they're using, you know, things like these remote workspaces running in containers. You know, this is based on the eclipse. Ah, Apache, the the CI Project, You know, for this. So this this notion that you know, we're building a platform that can be used by ops teams? Absolutely true, but the same time the idea is, how can we now start thinking about making sure these abstractions are providing are extremely productive for development teams. >>Yeah, it's such an important piece. Last year I got the chance to go to Answerable Fest for the first time, and it was that kind of discussion that was really important, you know, can tools actually help me? Bridge between was traditionally some of those silos that they talked about, You know, the product developer that the Infrastructure and Ops team and the AB Dev teams all get things in their terminology and where they need but common platforms that cut between them. So sounds like similar methodology. We're seeing other piece of the platforms Any other, you know, guidance. You talked about all your customers there. How are they working through? You know, all of these modernizations adopting so many new technologies. Boy, you talked about like Dev ops tooling it still makes my heads. Then when I look at it, some of these charts is all the various tools and pieces that organizations are supposed to help choose and pick. Ah, out of there, they have. So how how is your team helping customers on kind of the organizational side? >>Yes. So we'll do this glass picture. So one is How do you make sure that the platform is working to help these teams? You know, by that? What I mean is, you know, we are introducing this idea and working very closely with our partners globally and on this notion of operators, right, which is every time I want to run data bases. And you know, there's so many different databases. There are, you know, up there, right? No sequel, no sequel. and in a variety of different ones for different use cases. How can you make sure that we make it easy for customers trial and then be able to to deploy them and manage them? Right? So this notion of an operator lifecycle because application much more manageable when they run with data s O. So you make you make it easier for folks to be able to use them. And then the question is, Well, what other? If you will advise to help me get that right So off late, you probably heard, you know, be hired a bunch of industry experts and brought them into red hat around this notion of a global transformation and be able to bring that expertise to know whether you know, it's the So you know, Our Deep in Dev Ops and the Dev Ops Handbook are you know, some of the things that industry is a lot like the Phoenix project and, you know, just just in various different you know what's your business and be able to start saying looking at these are told, music and share ideas with you on a couple that with things like open innovation labs that come from red hat as well as you know, similar kinds of offerings from our various partners around the world to help, you know, ease their transition into the >>All right. So final question I have for you, let's go a little bit high level. You know, as you've mentioned you and I have been having this conversation for a number of years last year or so, I've been hearing some of the really big players out there, ones that are, of course, partners of Red Hat. But they say similar things. So you know, whether it's, you know, Microsoft Azure releasing arc. If it's, you know, VM ware, which much of your open ship customers sit on top of it. But now they have, you know, the Project Pacific piece and and do so many of them talk about this, you know, heterogeneous, multi cloud environment. So how should customers be thinking about red hat? Of course. You partner with everyone, but you know, you do tend to do things a little bit different than everybody else. >>Uh, yeah. I hope we do things differently than everyone else. You know, to deliver value to customers, right? So, for example, all the things that we talk about open ship or really is about industry leading. And I think there's a bit of a transformation that's going on a swell right within the way. How Red Hat approaches things. So Sam customers have known Red Hat in the past in many ways for saying, Look, they're giving me an operating system that's, you know, democratizing, if you will. You know what the provider provides, Why I've been given me for all these years. They provided me an application server, right that, you know, uh, it's giving me a better value than what proprietary price. Increasingly, what we're doing with, you know, the work they're doing around, Let's say whether it's open shift or, you know, the next generation which ization that we talked about so on is about how can we help customers fundamentally transform how it is that they were building deploy applications, both in a new cloud native way. That's one of the existing once and what I really want to 0.2 is now. We've got it least a five year history on the open shift platform to look back at you will point out and say here are customers that are running directly on bare metal shears. Why they find, you know, this virtualization solution that you know that we're providing so interesting Here we have customers running in multiple different environments running on open stack running in these multiple private clouds are sorry public clouds on why they want distribute cluster management across all of them. You know, here's the examples that you know we could provide right? You know, here's the work we've done with, you know, whether it's these, you know, government agencies with private enterprises that we've talked to write, you know, receiving innovation awards for the world been doing together. And so I think our approach really has been more about, you know, we want to work on innovation that is fundamentally impacting customers, transforming them, meeting them where they are moving the four into the world we're going into. But they're also ensuring that we're taking advantage of all the existing investments that they've made in their skills. Right? So the advantage of, for example, the years off limits expertise that they have and saying How can we use that? Don't move you forward. >>Well, a chef's Thank you so much Absolutely. I know the customers I've talked to at Red Hat talking about not only how they're ready for today, but feel confident that they're ready to tackle the challenges of tomorrow. So thanks so much. Congratulations on all the progress and definitely look forward to seeing you again in the future. >>Likewise. Thanks, Ian Stewart. >>All right, I'm still Minuteman. And much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020 as always. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course this year instead of all gathering together in San Francisco, we're getting to talk to Red Hat executives, their partners and their customers where they are around the globe. I'm your host Stuart Miniman and happy to welcome to the program Nick Barcet, who is the Senior Director of Technology Strategy at Red Hat. He happens to be on a boat in the Bahamas. So Nick, thanks so much for joining us. >> Hey thank you for inviting me. It's a great pleasure to be here and it's a great pleasure to work for a company that has always dealt with remote people. So it's really easy for us to, kind of thing. >> Yeah Nick. You know it's interesting, I've been saying probably for the last 10 years that the challenge of our time is really distributed systems. You know from a software standpoint that's what we talk about and even more so today number one of course the current situation with the global pandemic but number two the topic we're going to talk to you about is edge and 5G. It's obviously gotten a lot of hype. So before we get into that my understanding Nick, you know you came into Red Hat through an acquisition. So give us a little bit about your background and what you work on for Red Hat. >> About five years ago company I was working for eNovance got acquired by Red Hat and I've been very lucky in that acquisition where I found a perfect home to express my talent. I've been free software advocate for the past 20 some years. Always been working in free software for the past 20 years and Red Hat is really wonderful for that. >> Yeah it's addressing me okay yeah. I remember back the early days we used to talk about free software. Now we don't talk free, open-source is what we talk about you know. Bream is a piece of what we're doing but let's talk about you know, You know, eNovanceI absolutely remember they were partner of Red Hat. I talked to them and a lot at some of the OpenStack shows. So I'm guessing when we're talking about edge, these are kind of the pieces coming together of what Red had done for years with OpenStack and with NFB. So what, what's the solution set you're talking about? Bring us inside, how you're helping your customers with these types of split. >> Well clearly the solution we are trying to put together as to combine what people already have with where they want to go. Our vision for the future is a vision where OpenShift is delivering a common service on any platform including hardware at the far edge on a model where both v-ends and containers can be hosted on the same machine. However there is a long road to get there and until we can fulfill all the needs, we are going to be using combination of OpenShift, OpenStack and many other product that we have in our portfolio to fulfill the needs of our customer. We've seen for example Verizon starting with OpenStack quite a few years ago now going with us with OpenShift that they're going to place on up of OpenStack or directly on bare metal. We've seen other big telcos use that in very successful to deploy their 5G networks. There is great capabilities in the existing portfolio. We are just expanding that simplifying it because when we are talking about the edge, we are talking about managing thousands if not millions of device and simplicity is key if you do not want to have your management parts in Crete. >> Excellent. So you talked a lot about the service providers. Obviously 5G as a big wave coming a lot of promise as what it will enable both for the service providers as well as the end-users. Help us understand where that is today and what we should expect to see in the coming years though. >> So in respect of 5G, there is two reason why 5G is important. One it is-- It is important in terms of edge strategy because any person deploying 5G will need to deploy computer resources much closer to the antenna if they want to be able to deliver the promise of 5G and the promise of very low latency. The second reason it is important is because it allows to build a network of things which do not need to be interconnected other than through a 5G connection. And this simplifies a lot some of the edge application that we are going to see where sensors need to provide data in a way where you're not necessarily always connected to a physical network and maintaining a WiFi connection is really complex and costly. >> Yeah Nick a lot of pieces that sometimes get confused or conflated, I want you to help us connect the dots between what you're talking about for edge and what's happening in the telcos and the the broader conversation about hybrid cloud or Red Hat calls at the open hybrid cloud because you know there were some articles that were like you know edge is going to kill the cloud. I think we all know an IP nothing ever dies, everything is all additive. So how do these pieces all go together? >> So for us at Red Hat, it's very important to build edge as an extension of our open hybrid cloud strategy. Clearly what we are trying to build is an environment where developers can develop workloads once and then can the administrator that needs to deploy a workload or the business mode that needs to deploy a workload can do it on any footprint. And the edge is just one of these footprint as is the cloud as is a private environment. So really having a single way to administer all these footprints, having a single way to define the workloads running on it, is really what we are achieving today and making better and better in the years to come. The reality of... to process the data as close as possible to where the data is being consumed or generated. So you have new footprints to let's say summarize or simplify or analyze the data where it is being used. And then you can limit the traffic to a more central site to only the essential of it. It is clear that with the current growth of data, there won't be enough capacity to have all the data going directly to the central path. And this is what the edge is about, making sure we have intermediary of points of processing. >> Yeah absolutely. So Nick you talked about OpenStack and OpenShift. Of course there's open source project with with OpenStack. OpenShift the big piece of that is is Kubernetes. When it comes to edge are there other open source project, the parts of the foundations out there that we should highlight when looking at these edge loop? >> Oh, there is a tremendous amount of projects that are pertaining to the edge. Red Hat carries many of these projects in its portfolio. The middleware components for example Quercus or AMQ mechanism, Carlcare are very important components. We've got storage solutions that are super important also when you're talking about storing or handling data. You've got in our management portfolio two very key tool one called Ansible that allows to configure remotely confidence that is super handy when you need to reconfigure firewall in mass. You've got another tool that is the central piece of our strategy which is called ACM, Red Hat's I forgot the name of the product now. We are using the acronym all the time which is our central management mechanism just delivered to us through IBM. So this is a portfolio wide we are making and I forgot the important one which is Red Hat Enterprise Linux which is delivering very soon a new version that is going to enable easier management at yet. >> Yeah. Well of course we know that realers you know the core foundational piece fit with most of the solution in a portfolio. That it's really interesting how you laid that out though. As you know some people on the outside look and say, " Okay, Red Hat's got a really big portfolio. How does it all fit together?" You just discussed that all of these pieces become really important when they come together for the edge. So maybe you know, one of the things when we get together summit of course, we get to hear a lot from your customers. So any customers you can talk about, that might be a good proof point for these solutions that you're talking about today? >> So right now most of the proof points are in the telco industry because these are the first one that have made the investment in depth. And when we are talking about various and we are talking about very large investment that is reinforced in their strategy. We've got customers in telco all over the world that are starting to use our products to deploy their 5G networks and we've got lots of customer starting to work with us on creating their strategy for in other vertical particularly in the industrial and manufacturing sector which is our next endeavour after telco yet. >> Yeah well absolutely. Verizon a customer, I'm well familiar with when it comes to what they've been used with Red Hat. I'd interviewed them, it opens back few years back when they talked about that those nav-pipe solutions. You brought a manufacturing so that brings up one of the concerns when you talk about edge or specifically about IOT environment. When we did some original research looking at the industrial internet, the boundaries between the IT group and the OT which heavily lives in manufacturing wouldn't, they don't necessarily talk or work together. So how's Red Hat helping to make sure that customers you know, go through these transitions, pass through those silos and can take advantage of these sorts of new technologies? >> Well obviously you have to look at a problem in the entirety. You've got to look at the change management aspect and for this, you need to understand how people interact together if you intend on modifying the way they work together. You also need to ensure that the requirements of one are not impeding the other on demand, on environment of a manufacturer. Is really important especially when we are talking about dealing with IOT sensors which have very limited security capability. So you need to add in the appropriate security layers to make what is not secure, secure and if you don't do that you're going to introduce a friction. And you also need to ensure that you can delegate administration of the component to the right people. You cannot say, Oh from now on all of what you used to be controlling on a manufacturing floor is now controlled centrally and you have to go through this form in order to have anything modified. So having the flexibility in our tooling to enable respect of the existing organization and handle a change management the appropriate way. These are way to answer this... >> Right Nick, last thing for you. Obviously this is a maturing space, lots of change happening. So give us a little bit of a look forward as to what users should be expecting and you know what pieces will be the industry and Red Hat be working on that bring full value out of the edge and 5G solution? >> So as always, any such changes are driven by the applications. And what we are seeing is in terms of application, a very large predominance of requirements for AI, ML and data processing capability. So reinforcing all the components around this environment is one of our key addition and that we are making as we speak. You can see Chris keynote which is going to demonstrate how we are enabling a manufacturer to process the signal sent from multiple sensors through an AI and during early failure detection. You can also expect us to enable more and more complex use case in terms of footprint. Right now, we can do very small data center that are residing on three machine. Tomorrow we'll be able to handle remote worker nodes that are on a single machine. Further along we'll be able to deal with disconnected node. A single machine acting as a cluster. All these are elements that are going to allow us to go further and further in the complication of the use cases. It's not the same thing when you have to connect a manufacturer that is on solid grounds with fiber access or when you have to connect the knowledge for example or a vote and talk about that to. >> Well, Nick thank you so much for all the updates. I know there's some really good breakouts. I'm sure there's lots on the Red Hat website to find out more about edge in five B's. Nick Barcet thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> All right. Back with lots more covered from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stuart Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (bright upbeat music)

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat last year in 2019 IBM made the biggest M&A move of the year with a 34 billion dollar acquisition of red hat it positioned IBM for the next decade after what was a very tumultuous tenure by CEO Ginni Rometty who had to shrink in order to grow unfortunately she didn't have enough time to do the grille part that has now gone toward Arvind Krishna the new CEO of IBM this is Dave Volante and I'm here with Stu minimun and this is our Red Hat keynote analysis is our 7th year doing the Red Hat summit and we're very excited to be here this is our first year doing Stu the Red Hat summit post IVM acquisition we've also got IBM think next week so what we want to do for you today is review what's going on at the Red Hat summits do you've been wall-to-wall with the interviews we're gonna break down the announcements IBM had just announced its quarter so we get some glimpse as to what's happening in the business and then we're gonna talk about going forward what the prognosis is for both IBM and Red Hat well and Dave of course our audience understands there's a reason why we're sitting farther apart than normal in our studio and you know why we're not in San Francisco where the show is supposed to be this year last year it's in Boston Red Hat summit goes coast-to-coast every year it's our seventh year doing the show first year doing it all digital of course our community is always online but you know real focus you know we're gonna talk about Dave you know you listen to the keynote speeches it's not the as we sit in our preview it's not the hoopla we had a preview with pork or mayor ahead of the event where they're not making big announcements most of the product pieces we're all out front it's open source anyway we know when it's coming for the most part some big partnership news of course strong customer momentum but a different tenor and the customers that Red Hat's lined up for me their interview all talking you know essential services like medical your your energy services your communication services so you know real focus I think Dave both IBM and right making sure that they are setting the appropriate tone in these challenging times yeah I mean everybody who we talked to says look at the employees and safety comes first once we get them working from home and we know that they're safe and healthy we want to get productive and so you've seen as we've reported that that shift to the work from home infrastructure and investments in that and so now it's all about how do we get closer to clients how do we stay close to clients and be there for them and I actually have you know business going forward you know the good news for IBM is it's got strong cash flow it's got a strong balance sheet despite you know the acquisition I mean it's just you know raise some more you know low low cost debt which you know gives them some dry powder going forward so I think IBM is gonna be fine it's just there's a lot of uncertainty but let's go back to your takeaways from the Red Hat Summit you've done you know dozens of interviews you got a good take on the company what are you top three takeaways - yeah so first of all Dave you know the focus everybody has is you know what does Red Hat do for the cloud story for IBM OpenShift especially is absolutely a highlight over 2,000 customers now from some really large ones you know last year I interviewed you know Delta you've got you know forward and Verizon up on stage for the keynote strong partnership with Microsoft talking about what they're doing so OpenShift has really strong momentum if you talk about you know where is the leadership in this whole kubernetes space Red Hat absolutely needs to be in that discussion not only are they you know other than Google the top contributor really there but from a customer standpoint the experience what they've built there but what I really liked from Red Hat standpoint is it's not just an infrastructure discussion it's not OPM's and containers and there's things we want to talk about about VMs and containers and even server lists from Red Hat standpoint but Red Hat at its core what it is it they started out as an operating system company rel Red Hat Enterprise Linux what's the tie between the OS and the application oh my god they've got decades of experience how do you build applications everything from how they're modernizing Java with a project called Korkis through how their really helping customers through this digital transformation I hear a similar message from Red Hat and their customers that I hear from Satya Nadella at Microsoft is we're building lots of applications we need to modernize what they're doing in Red Hat well positioned across the stack to not only be the platform for it but to help all of the pieces to help me modernize my applications build new ones modernize some of the existing ones so OpenShift a big piece of it you know automation has been a critical thing for a while we did the cube last year at ansible fest for the first time from Red Hat took that acquisition has helped accelerate that community in growth and they're really Dave pulling all the pieces together so it's what you hear from Stephanie shirasu ironically enough came over from IBM to run that business inside a Red Hat well you know now she's running it inside Red Hat and there's places that this product proliferate into the IBM portfolio next week when we get where it I didn't think I'm sure we'll hear a lot about IBM cloud packs and look at what's underneath IBM cloud packs there's open shift there's rel all those pieces so you know I know one of the things we want to talk about Davis you know what does that dynamic of Red Hat and IBM mean so you know open shift automation the full integration both of the Red Hat portfolio and how it ties in with IBM would be my top three well red hat is now IBM I mean it's a clearly part of the company it's there's a company strategy going forward the CEO Arvind Krishna is the architect of the Red Hat acquisition and so you know that it's all in on Red Hat Dave I mean just the nuance there of course is the the thing you hear over and over from the Red Hatters is Red Hat remains Red Hat that cultural shift is something I'd love to discuss because you know Jim Whitehurst now he's no longer a Red Hat employee he's an IBM employee so you've got Red Hat employees IBM employees they are keeping that you know separation wall but obviously there's flowing in technology and come on so come on in tech you look at it's not even close to what VMware is VMware is a separate public company has separate reporting Red Hat doesn't I mean yes I hear you yo you got the Red Hat culture and that's good but it's a far cry from you know a separate entity with full transparency the financials and and so I I hear you but I'm not fully buying it but let's let's get into it let's take a look at at the quarter because that I think will give us an indication as to how much we actually can understand about RedHat and and again my belief is it's really about IBM and RedHat together I think that is their opportunity so Alex if you wouldn't mind pulling up the first slide these are highlights from IBM's q1 and you know we won't spend much time on the the the IBM side of the business although we wanted to bring some of that in but hit the key here as you see red hat at 20% revenue growth so still solid revenue growth you know maybe a little less robust than it was you know sequentially last quarter but still very very strong and that really is IBM's opportunity here 2,200 clients using red hat and an IBM container platforms the key here is when Ginni Rometty announced this acquisition along with Arvind Krishna and Jim Whitehurst she said this is going to be this is going to be cash flow free cash flow accretive in year one they've already achieved that they said it's gonna be EPS accretive by year two they are well on their way to achieving that why we talked about this do it's because iBM has a huge services organization that it can plug open shift right into and begin to modernize applications that are out there I think they cited on the call that they had a hundred ongoing projects and that is driving immediate revenue and allows IBM to from a financial standpoint to get an immediate return so the numbers are pretty solid yeah absolutely Dave and you know talking about that there is a little bit of the blurring a line between the companies one of the product pieces that came out at the show is IBM has had for a couple of years think you know MCM multi cloud management there was announced that there were actually some of the personnel and some of the products from IBM has cut have come into Retta of course Red Hat doing what they always do they're making it open source and they're it's advanced cluster management really from my viewpoint this is an answer to what we've seen in the kubernetes community for the last year there is not one kubernetes distribution to rule them all I'm going to use what my platforms have and therefore how do I manage across my various cloud environments so Red Hat for years is OpenShift lives everywhere it sits on top of VMware virtualization environments it's on top of AWS Azure in Google or it just lives in your Linux farms but ACM now is how do I manage my kubernetes environment of course you know super optimized to work with OpenShift and the roadmap as to how it can manage with Azure kubernetes and some of the other environments so you know you now have some former IBM RS that are there and as you said Dave some good acceleration in the growth from the Red Hat numbers we'd seen like right around the time that the acquisition happened Red Hat had a little bit of a down quarter so you know absolutely the services and the the scale that IBM can bring should help to bring new logos of course right now Dave with the current global situation it's a little bit tough to go and be going after new business yeah and we'll talk about that a little bit but but I want to come back to sort of when I was pressing you before on the trip the true independence of Red Hat by the way I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing I'll give an example look at Dell right now why is Dell relevant and cloud well okay but if Dell goes to market says we're relevant in cloud because of VMware well then why am I talking to you why don't I talk to VMware and so so my point is that that in some regards you know having that integration is there is a real advantage no you know you were that you know EMC and the time when they were sort of flip-flopping back and forth between integrated and not and separate and not it's obviously worked out for them but it's not necessarily clear-cut and I would say in the case of IBM I think it's the right move why is that every Krista talked about three enduring platforms that IBM has developed one is mainframe that's you know gonna here to stay the second was middleware and the third is services and he's saying that hybrid cloud is now the fourth and during platform that they want to build well how do they gonna build that what are they gonna build that on they're gonna build that an open shift they they're there other challenges to kind of retool their entire middleware portfolio around OpenShift not unlike what Oracle did with with Fusion when it when it bought Sun part of the reason - pod Sun was for Java so these are these are key levers not necessarily in and of themselves you know huge revenue drivers but they lead to awesome revenue opportunities so that's why I actually think it's the right move that what IBM is doing keep the Red Hat to the brand and culture but integrate as fast as possible to get cash flow or creative we've achieved that and get EPS accretive that to me makes a lot of sense yeah Dave I've heard you talk often you know if you're not a leader in a position or you know here John Chambers from Cisco when he was running it you know if I'm not number one or number two why am I in it how many places did IBM have a leadership position Red Hat's a really interesting company because they have a leadership position in Linux obviously they have a leadership position now in kubernetes Red Hat culturally of course isn't one to jump up and down and talk about you know how they're number one in all of these spaces because it's about open source it's about community and you know that does require a little bit of a cultural shift as IBM works with them but interesting times and yeah Red Hat is quietly an important piece of the ecosystem let me let me bring in some meteor data Alex if you pull up that that's that second slide well and I've shown this before in braking analysis and what this slide shows in the vertical axis shows net score net score is a measure of spending momentum spending velocity the the horizontal axis is is is called market share it's really not market share it's it's really a measure of pervasiveness the the mentions in the data set we're talking about 899 responses here out of over 1200 in the April survey and this is a multi cloud landscape so what I did here Stu I pulled on containers container platforms of container management and cloud and we positioned the companies on this sort of XY axis and you can see here you obviously have in the upper right you've got Azure in AWS why do I include AWS and the multi cloud landscape you answered that question before but yesterday because Dave even though Amazon might not allow you to even use the word multi cloud you can't have a discussion of multi cloud without having Amazon in that discussion and they've shifted on hybrid expect them to adjust their position on multi-cloud in the future yeah now coming back to this this this data you see kubernetes is on the kubernetes I know is another company but ETR actually tracks kubernetes you can see how hot it is in terms of its net score and spending momentum yeah I mean Dave do you know the thing the the obvious thing to look at there is if you see how strong kubernetes is if IBM plus red hat can keep that leadership in kubernetes they should do much better in that space than they would have on with just their products alone and that's really the lead of this chart that really cuts to the chase do is you see you see red Red Hat openshift has really strong spending momentum although I will say if you back up back up to say April July October 18 19 it actually was a little higher so it's been pushed down remember this is the April survey that what's ran from mid-march to mid April so we're talking right in the middle of the pandemic okay so everybody's down but nonetheless you can see the opportunity is for IBM and Red Hat to kind of meet in the middle leverage IBM's massive install base in its in its services presence in its market presence its pervasiveness so AKA market share in this rubric and then use Red Hat's momentum and kind of meet in the middle and that's the kind of point that we have here with IBM's opportunity and that really is why IBM is a leader in at least a favorite in my view in multi cloud well Dave if you'd look two years ago and you said what was the competitive landscape Red Hat was an early leader in the kubernetes you know multi-cloud discussion today if you ask everybody well who's doing great and kubernetes you have to talk about all the different options that amazon has Amazon still has their own container management with ACS of course IKS is doing strong and well and Amazon whatever they do they we know they're going to be competitive Microsoft's there but it's not all about competition in this space Dave because you know we see Red Hat partnering across these environments they do have a partnership with AWS they do have you know partnership with you know Microsoft up on stage there so where it was really interesting Dave you know one of the things I was coming into this show looking is what is Red Hat's answer to what VMware is really starting to do in this space so vSphere 7 rolled out and that is the ga of project Pacific so taking virtualization in containers and putting them together Red Hat of course has had virtualization for a long time with KVM they have a different answer of how they're doing openshift virtualization and it rather than saying here's my virtual environment and i can also do kubernetes on it they're saying containers are the future and where you want to go and we can bring your VMs into containers really shift them the way you have really kind of a lift and shift but then modernize them Dave customers are good you know you want to meet customers where they are you want to help them move forward virtualization in general has been a you don't want to touch your applications you want to just you know let it ride forever but the real the real driver for companies today is I've got to build new apps I need to modernize on my environment and you know Red Hat is positioning and you know I like what I'm hearing from them I like what I'm hearing from my dad's customers on how they're helping take both the physical the virtual the containers in the cloud and bring them all into this modern era yeah and and you know IBM made an early bet on on kubernetes and obviously around Red Hat you could see actually on that earlier slide we showed you IBM we didn't really talk about it they said they had 23% growth in cloud which is that they're a twenty two billion dollar business for IBM you're smiling yeah look good for IBM they're gonna redefine cloud you know let AWS you know kick and scream they're gonna say hey here's how we define cloud we include our own pram we include Cano portions of our consulting business I mean I honestly have no idea what's in the 22 billion and how if they're growing 22 billion at 23% wow that's pretty awesome I'm not sure I think they're kind of mixing apples and oranges there but it makes for a good slide yeah you would say wait shouldn't that be four billion you added he only added two or three billion you know numbers can tell a story but you can also manipulate but the point is the point is I've always said this near term the to get you know return on this deal it's about plugging OpenShift into services and modernizing applications long term it's about maintaining IBM and red-hats relevance in the hybrid cloud world which is I don't know how big it is it's a probably a trillion-dollar opportunity that really is critical from a strategy standpoint do I want to ask you about the announcements what about any announcements that you saw coming from Red Hat are relevant what do we need to know there yeah so you know one of the bigger ones we already talked about that you know multi cloud manager what Red Hat has the advanced cluster management or ACM absolutely is an era an area we should look VMware Tong's ooh Azure Ark Google anthos and now ACM from Red Hat in partnership with IBM is an area still really early Dave I talked to some of the executives in the space and say you know are we going to learn from the mistakes of multi vendor management Dave you know you think about the CA and BMC you know exactly of the past will we have learned for those is this the right way to do it it is early but Red Hat obviously has a position here and they're doing it um did hear plenty about how Red Hat is plugging into all the IBM environments Dave Z power you know the cloud solutions and of course you know IBM solutions across the board my point of getting a little blue wash but hey it's got to happen I think that's a smart move right you know we talked about you know really modernizing the applications in the environments I talked a bit about the virtualization piece the other one if you say okay how do I pull the virtualization forward what about the future so openshift serverless is the other one it's really a tech preview at this point it's built off of the K native project which is part of the CNC F which is basically how do I still have you know containers and kubernetes underneath can that plug into server list order server let's get it rid of it everything so IBM Oracle Red Hat and others really been pushing hard on this Kay native solution it is matured a lot there's an ecosystem growing as how it can connect to Asher how it can connect to AWS so definitely something from that appdev piece to watch and Dave that's where I had some really good discussions with customers as well as the the Red Hat execs and their partners that boundary between the infrastructure team and the app dev team they're hoping to pull them together and some of the tooling actually helps ansible is a great example of that in the past but you know others in the portfolio and lastly if you want to talk a huge opportunity for Red Hat IBM and it's a jump ball for everyone is edge computing so Red Hat I've talked to them for years about what they were doing in the opened stack community with network function virtualization or NFV Verizon was up on stage I've got an interview for Red Hat summit with Vodafone idea which has 300 million subscribers in India and you know the Red Hat portfolio really helping a lot of the customers there so it's the telco edge is where we see a strong push there it's definitely something we've been watching from the you know the big cloud players and those partnerships Dave so you know last year Satya Nadella was up on the main stage with Red Hat this year Scott Guthrie you know there he's at every Microsoft show and he's not the red head show so it is still ironic for those of us that have watched this industry and you say okay where are some of the important partnerships for Red Hat its Microsoft I mean you know we all remember when you know open-source was the you know evil enemy for from Microsoft and of course Satya Nadella has changed things a lot it's interesting to watch I'm sure we'll talk more at think Dave you know Arvind Krishna the culture he will bring in with the support of Jim Whitehurst comes over from IBM compared to what Satya has successfully done at Microsoft well let's talk about that let's let's talk about let's bring it home with the sort of near-term midterm and really I want to talk about the long term strategic aspects of IBM and Red Hat's future so near-term IBM is suspended guidance like everybody okay they don't have great visibility some some some things to watch by the way a lot of people are saying no just you know kind of draw draw a red line through this quarter you just generally ignore it I disagree look at cash flow look balance sheets look at what companies are doing and how they're positioning that's very important right now and will give us some clues and so there's a couple of things that we're watching with IBM one is their software business crashed in March and software deals usually come in big deals come in at the end of the quarter people were too distracted they they stopped spending so that's a concern Jim Cavanaugh on the call talked about how they're really paying attention to those services contracts to see how they're going are they continuing what's the average price of those so that's something that you got to watch you know near-term okay fine again as I said I think IBM will get through this what really I want to talk about to do is the the prospects going forward I'm really excited about the choice that IBM made the board putting Arvind Krishna in charge and the move that he made in terms of promoting you know Jim Whitehurst to IBM so let's talk about that for a minute Arvind is a technical visionary and it's it's high time that I VM got back to it being a technology company first because that's what IBM is and and I mean Lou Gerstner you know arguably save the company they pivoted to services Sam Palmisano continue that when Ginny came in you know she had a services heritage she did the PWC deal and IBM really became a services company first in my view Arvind is saying explicitly we want to lead with technology and I think that's the right move of course iBM is going to deliver outcomes that's what high-beams heritage has been for the last 20 years but they are a technology company and having a technology visionary at the lead is very important why because IBM essentially is the leader prior to Red Hat and one thing mainframes IBM used to lead in database that used to lead in storage they used to lead in the semiconductors on and on and on servers now they lead in mainframes and and now switch to look at Red Hat Red Hat's a leader you know they got the best product out there so I want you to talk about how you see that shift to more of a sort of technical and and product focus preserving obviously but your thoughts on the move the culture you're putting Jim as the president I love it I think it was actually absolutely brilliant yeah did Dave absolutely I know we were excited because we you know personally we know both of those leaders they are strong leaders they are strong technically Dave when I think about all the companies we look at I challenge anybody to find a more consistent and reliable pair of companies than IBM and Red Hat you know for years it was you know red hat being an open-source company and you know the way their business model said it it's not the you know Evan flow of product releases we know what the product is going to be the roadmaps are all online and they're gonna consistently grow what we've seen Red Hat go from kind of traditional software models to the subscription model and there are some of the product things we didn't get into too much as to things that they have built into you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux and expanding really their cloud and SAS offerings to enhance those environments and that that's where IBM is pushing to so you know there's been some retooling for the modern era they are well positioned to help customers through that you know digital transformation and as you said Dave you and I we both read the open organization by Jim lighters you know he came in to Red Hat you know really gave some strong leadership the culture is strong they they have maintained you know really strong morale and I talked to people inside you know was their concern inside when IBM was making the acquisition of course there was we've all seen some acquisitions that have gone great when IBM has blue washed them they're trying to make really strong that Red Hat stays Red Hat to your point you know Dave we've already seen some IBM people go in and some of the leadership now is on the IBM side so you know can they improve the product include though improve those customer outcomes and can Red Hat's culture actually help move IBM forward you know company with over a hundred years and over 200,000 employees you'd normally look and say can a 12,000 person company change that well with a new CEO with his wing and you know being whitehurst driving that there's a possibility so it's an interesting one to watch you know absolutely current situations are challenging you know red hats growth is really about adding new logos and that will be challenged in the short term yeah Dave I I love you shouldn't let people off the hook for q2 maybe they need to go like our kids this semester is a pass/fail rather than a grid then and then a letter grade yeah yeah and I guess my point is that there's information and you got to squint through it and I think that look at to me you know this is like Arvin's timing couldn't be better not that he orchestrated it but I mean you know when Ginny took over I mean was over a hundred million a hundred billion I said many times that I beams got a shrink to grow she just ran out of time for the Gro part that's now on Arvind and I think that so he's got the cove in mulligan first of all you know the stocks been been pressured down so you know his tenure he's got a great opportunity to do with IBM in a way what such an adela did is doing at Microsoft you think about it they're both deep technologists you know Arvind hardcore you know computer scientist Indian Institute of Technology Indian Institute of Technology different school than Satya went to but still steeped in in a technical understanding a technical visionary who can really Drive you know product greatness you know in a I would with with Watson we've talked a lot about hybrid cloud quantum is something that IBM is really investing heavily in and that's a super exciting area things like blockchain some of these new areas that I think IBM can lead and it's all running on the cloud you know look IBM generally has been pretty good with acquisitions they yes they fumbled a few but I've always made the point they are in the cloud game IBM and Oracle yeah they're behind from a you know market share standpoint but they're in the game and they have their software estate in their pass a state to insulate them from the race to the bottom so I really like their prospects and I like the the organizational structure that they put in place in it by the way it's not just Arvind Jim you mentioned Paul Cormier you know Rob Thomas has been been elevated to senior VP really important in the data analytic space so a lot of good things going on there yeah and Dave one of the questions you've been asking and we've been all talking to leaders in the industry you know what changes permanently after the this current situation you know automation you know more adoption of cloud the importance of developers are there's even more of a spotlight on those environments and Red Hat has strong positioning in that space a lot of experience that they help their customers and being open source you know very transparent there I both IBM and Red Hat are doing a lot to try to help the community they've got contests going online to you know help get you know open source and hackers and people working on things and you know strong leadership to help lead through these stormy weathers so Stuart's gonna be really interesting decade and the cube will be here to cover it hopefully hopefully events will come back until they do will be socially responsible and and socially distant but Stu thanks for helping us break down the the red hat and sort of tipping our toe into IBM more coverage and IBM think and next week this is Dave alotta for Stu minimun you're watching the cube and our continuous coverage of the Red Hat summit keep it right there be back after this short break you [Music]

>>Yeah, >>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston. It's the Cube covering IBM think wrought by IBM. >>Welcome back. I'm Stew Middleman. And this is the Cube's coverage of IBM. Think 2020. The digital experience. Happy to welcome to the program. Dinesh Nirmal, Who's the chief product officer for cloud packs inside IBM Deneche. Nice to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Still really appreciate you taking the time. >>All right, So Ah, I've been to many IBM shows, and of course, I'm an analyst in the cloud space. So I'm familiar with IBM cloud packs. But maybe, you know, just refresh our audience minds here what they are. How long have they been around for? You know, what clouds do they live on? And maybe what's what's new in 2020? That if somebody had looked at this, you know, in the past that they might not know about IBM Cloud. >>Yeah, so thanks to start with, let me say that. Well, tax at 12. Agnostic. So the whole goal is that you build once and it can run anywhere. That is the basic mantra or principle that we want to build packs with, So they're looking at them as a set of micro services containerized in the form that it can run on any public or behind the firewall. So that's the whole premise of about Pass. So when you go back to cloud packs, it's an integrator set of services that solve a specific set of business problems and also accelerates building rich set of applications and solutions. That's what cloud back springs. So you know, especially in this and moments to think about it, you know, violent underprice. My goal is how can I accelerate and how can I automate? Those are the two key things you know that comes to my mind if I am a C level execs at an enterprise. So cloud practice enables that meaning you already have a set off stitched together services that accelerate the application development. It automates a lot of things for you. So you do. They have a lot of applications running on multiple clouds or behind the firewall. How do you manage those right about banks will help, so I'll let me give you one example. Since you are specifically on 12 packs, let's stay cloud back for data the set of services that is available in cloud back for data will make it easier for all the way from ingest to visualization. There's a set of services that you can use so you don't have to go build a service or a product or use a product for ingest. Then use another product for CTL. Use another product for building models, another product to manage those models. The cloud back for data will solve all the problems and to end. It's a rich set of services that will give you all the value that you need all the way from ingest to visualization and with any personas We know whether you are a data engineer, data scientist or you are, you know, business analyst. You all can cooperate through the part. So that's the you know, two minute answer your question. What about practice? >>Awesome. Thanks in. Actually, I I guess you pointed out something right at the beginning. There I hear IBM Cloud pack and I think IBM cloud. But you said specifically this is really cloud agnostic. So you know, this week is think Last week I was covering Red Hat Summit, so I heard a lot about multi cloud deployments. You know, talk to the well team, talk to the open shift team. Um, so help me understand. You know, where do cod packed bit when we're talking about, you know, these multi cloud employments, you know? And is there some connection with the partnership that, of course, IBM has with red hat >>off course. I mean, so all cloud packs are optimized for open shipped. Meaning, you know, how do we use the set of services that open ship gives that container management that open provides. So as we build containers or micro services, how do we make sure that we are optimizing or taking advantage of open ship? So, for example, the set of services like logging, monitoring, security, all those services meeting that comes from open shift is what we are using. Basketball packs of cloud packs are optimized for open shift. Um, you know, from an automation perspective, how do we use and simple Right? So all the value that red hat an open ship brings is what about back is built on. So if you look at it as a layer as a Lego, the based Lego is open shift and rail. And then on top of it sits cloud pass and applications and solutions on top of it. So if I look at layer bass, the bass Lego layer is open shift and red pepper. >>Well, great. That's that's super important because, you know, one of the things we've been looking at for a while is you talk about hybrid cloud, You talk about multi cloud, and often it's that platform that infrastructure discussion. But the biggest challenge for companies today is how do I build new applications? How do I modernize what I have? So >>it >>sounds like this is exactly, you know where you're targeting to help people, you know, through the through that transformation that they're going through. >>Yeah, exactly. Stew. Because if you look at it, you know, in the past, products for siloed I mean, you know, you build a product, you use a set of specs to build it. It was a silo, and customers becomes the software integrators, or system integrators, where they have to take the different products, put it together. So even if I am, you know, focused on the data space or AI space before I have to bring in three or four or five different products make it all work together to build a model, deploy the model, manage the model, the lifecycle of the model, the life cycle of the data. But the cloud packs bring it all in one box, were out of the box. You're ready to go, so your time to value is much more higher with cloud packs because you already get a several stitched together services that gets working right out of the box. >>So I love the idea of out of the box when I think of Cloud native modern modern application development. Simplicity is not the first thing I think of Danish. So help me understand. You know so many customers. It's, you know, the tools, the skill set. You know, they don't necessarily have the experience. How is what you know your products and your team's doing help customers deal with, You know, the ever changing landscape and the complexity that they're faced with. >>Yeah, so the that honest roots, too, is that enterprise applications are not an app that you create and put it on iPhone, right? I mean, it is much more complex because it's dealing with you know, hundreds of millions of people trying to transact with the system. You need to make sure there is a disaster recovery, backup scalability, the elasticity. I mean, all those things. Security, I mean, obviously very critical piece and multi tenancy. All those things has to come together in an enterprise application. So when people talk about, you know, simplicity, it comes at a price. So what cloud practice is done is that you know, we have really focused on the user experience and design piece. So you, as an end user, has a great Syrians using the integrated set of services. The complexity piece will still be there to some extent, because you're building a very complex, you know, multi tenant application, the price application. But how do we make it easier for a developer or a data scientist to collaborate or reuse the assets, find the data much more easier or trusted data much more easier than before? Use AI, you know, to predict a lot of the things including, you know, bias detection, all those things. So we're making a lot off the development, automation and acceleration easier. The complexity part will be there still, because You know, enterprise applications tend to be complex by nature, but we're making it much more easier for you to develop, deploy and manage and govern what you're building. >>Yeah, so? So how does cloud packs allow you to really, you know, work with customers focus on, you know, things like innovation showing them the latest in the IBM software portfolio. >>Yeah. So off the first pieces that we made it much more easier for the different personas to collaborate. So in the past, you know what is the biggest challenge? Me as a data scientist had me as a data scientist. The biggest challenge was that getting access to the data Trusted data. Now, you know, we have put some governance around it, or by average, you can get, you know, data trusted data much more easier using our back to data governments around the data. Meaning if you have a CDO, you want to see who is using the data? How clean is that data, right? I mean, a lot of times that data might not be clean, so we want to make sure we can. You can help with that. Now let me move into the you know the line of business. He's not just the data. If I am, you know, a l l o B. And I want to use order. Made a lot of the process I have in today in my enterprise and not go to the ah, the every process automation and go through your superior or supervisor to get approval. How do we use AI in the business process? Automation also. So those kind of things you will get to cloud parts now, the other piece of it. But if I'm an I t space, right, the day two operations scalability, security, delivery of the software, backup and restore how do we automate and help it at the storage layer? Those air day two operations. So we're taking it all the way from day one. The whole experience of setting it up today to where enterprises really wherever, making it seamless and easy. Using quote Thanks. I go back to what I said in the beginning, which is how do we accelerate and automate a lot of the work that enterprises today much more easier. >>Okay, Wei talked earlier in the discussion about that. This can be used across multiple cloud environments. My understanding you mentioned one of the IBM cloud packs, one for data. There's a number of different cloud tax out there. How does that >>work from >>a customer standpoint? Do I have to choose a cloud pack for a specific cloud? Does it is a license that goes across all of my environment, Help me understand on this deployment mechanism and support inmates works >>right? So we have the base. Obviously, I said, You know, look at us. A modular Lego model. The base is obviously open shift in Rome. On top of itself sits a bedroom because which is a common set of services on the logic to experience. On top of it sits lower back for data well back for security cloud. For applications, there's cloud back for multi cloud management. There's cloud platform integration, so there's total of six power packs that's available, but you can pick and choose which about back you want. So let's say you are. You're a CD or you are an enterprise. We want to focus on data and ai. You can just speak lower back for data or let's say you are a, you know, based on processes, BPM decision rules. You can go with our back for automation, which gives you the set of tools. But the biggest benefits do is that all these quarterbacks are set up in the greatest services that can all work together since optimized on top of open ship. So all of a sudden you lead bar Cloud back for data, and now you want to do data. But now you want to expand it in New York and line of business. And you want that for automation? You can bring that in. Now those two quarterbacks works together. Well, now you want to bring it back for multi cloud management because you have data or applications running on multiple clouds. So now you can will bring it back for EMC M, which is multi cloud management. And those three work together. So it's fall as set off integrated set of services that is optimized on top of open shift, which makes it much more easier for customers to bring the rich set of services together and accelerate and automate their lifecycle journey within the enterprise. >>Great last question for you, Dan Ashe. You know what? What new in 2020. What should customers be looking at today would love if you could give a little bit of guidance as to where customers should be looking at for things that might be coming a little bit down the line here. And if they want to learn more about IBM cloud backs, where should they be looking? >>Yeah, if they want to learn more, there's, you know, the VW IBM dot com slash power packs. That's a place to go there. All the details on power packs are there. You can also get in touch with me, and I can definitely much more detail. But what is coming is that look. So we have a set of cloud parts, but we want to expand on, Make it extensible. So how do we you know, already it's built on an open platform. But how do we make sure our partners and I s feeds can come and build on top of the space cloud? So that's the focus going to be as each quote back innovate and add more value in within those cloud grants. We also wanted bandit so that you know our partners and our eyes, fees and GS size and build on top of it. So this year the focus is continuously in a way across the cloud part, but also make it much more extensible for third parties to come and build more value. That's the you know, That's one area of focus in the various EMC em right multi cloud management, because there is tremendous appetite for customers to move data or applications on cloud, and not only on one cloud hybrid cloud. So how do you manage that? Right. So multi cloud management definitely helps from that perspective. So our focus this year is going to be one. Make it extensible, make it more open, but at the same time continuously innovate on every single cloud part to make that journey for customers on automation and accelerating off application element easier. >>All right, we'll do next. Thank you so much. Yeah, the things that you talked about, that absolutely, you know, top of mind for customers that we talk to multi cloud management. As you said, it was the ACM, the advanced cluster management that we heard about from the Red Hat team last week at Summit. So thank you so much for the updates. Definitely exciting to watch cloud packed. How you're helping customers, you know, deal with that. That huge. It's the opportunity. But also the challenge of building their next applications, modernizing what they're doing without, you know, still having to think about what they have from their existing. Thanks so much. Great to talk. >>Thanks to you. >>All right, lots more coverage from IBM. Think 2020 The digital experience. I'm stew minimum. And as always, Thank you for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> From around the globe, it's theCube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course, this year's event happening digitally, we're talking to Red Hat executives, partners, customers, where they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this digital event. And really important topic, of course, has been Automation for a long time, I think back to my career automation is something we've been talking about for decades, but even more important in today's age. Happy to welcome back to the program, Tim Kramer with Red Hat, Vice President of Engineering is that I don't have listed view here. But since we last talked to him at Ansible Fest, has been a little expansion in the scope of what you're working on. First of all, welcome back, and tell us what's new in your world? >> All right, thanks a lot. Yeah, there's been rather substantial change in roles. I'm now in charge actually, of all of the engineering within Red Hat. All the development engineering site includes: the middleware teams, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, of course management and automation, the new team that we just brought over from IBM doing Advanced Container Management. I'm basically running the whole thing and openShift of course. >> Excellent. Just a few things to keep you busy. Congratulations on that and love your support in the the Boston "Hello World" rella eight shirt that of course we saw last year at summit. I know one of the things being digital is people do miss some of the t-shirts. I know my family was quite fond of the "May The Fourth Be With You" shirts, that Red Hat did one year at summit. Of course, celebrating Star Wars Day, highly celebrated in in the Middleman household. But Tim, let's talk about Ansible. This brings our audience up to speed, what's happening that some of the latest pieces, and of course, it's been one of the great success stories. Ansible was a lot of adoption before the acquisition, but really accelerated over the last few years? >> I think it's been very exciting. We talked a lot about some of the cool things that we're going to be working on it Ansible Fest, and we showed a lot of demos. We're actually now bringing a lot of those technologies to light. And the main thing that we've been focused on really, is let's make sure that we're continuing to add really great value to the Ansible subscription. And especially for our customers, and any users actually, we want to make sure that we can continue to scale with the community and partners that are part of Ansible. And we are also um, (mumbles) Freezing. We just start that question again, fix that one in post? Sorry. >> Just stay in. It's okay, we'll pick it up there. They can do a trend, though. Tim, I'll start the question again? >> Okay. >> We'll start this. I'll reframe the question again. Then I'll cut your screen and you'll go, and... Tim, let's focus specifically on the updates on what's happening in Ansible. >> At Ansible Fest, we talked a lot about technology to come and showed a few demos of the possibilities. What we have done since then is actually bring all of that technology to life and to expand it. One thing that Red Hat has really done is continue to invest heavily in Ansible, to make sure that we can bring new capabilities and new value to the subscription for everyone. Some of the things that have been happening since summit, which of course we are in, and since Ansible Fest, since we last talked was it, the community continues to scale at a really rapid rate. It's almost hard to keep up. And the number of modules that we have had is grown just tremendously. We have well over 3000 modules now that are available, and as customers and partners and also just casual users are looking through that, it's difficult to figure out: what's really supported? What's really rock solid? What can I count on? And what is, maybe sort of that Wild West community, I'm just trying out some stuff with Ansible and see how it goes. We've been focusing on a lot, is a place that you can come to the Ansible automation platform and the hub where you can now get this content and you can rely on the fact that it's going to be certified by partners, tested by partners, they're always keeping up with the latest updates. A great example of this is, let's just take NetApp or F5, or Cisco as good examples, across the various spaces, we absolutely in the Ansible engineering team are not experts on all of the latest changes, the new hardware coming out, the new software upgrades that they're making. And our ability to keep up with that is pretty difficult. We just can't do it, but they sure can. And their customers, and our customers are both demanding that we give them more content, better content, and we need to be able to do it at the rate that our partners want to be able to provide that kind. As an example, normally we were kind of slowing Ansible down and trying to do one release every six months. But if a new piece of software, a new switch or a new disk array or anything comes out in the meantime, all of our customers had to wait for that next six months release, that was not very convenient. And having an expectation that our partners are going to line up on our schedule is, oh! That didn't work out so well for them. We've created the certified content. And we now have the goals to have 50 certified partners. Back at first, I think we had three or four. We're now up to 30, our goal is to hit 50. We had about 100 modules that we showed at fest that were certified, we now have over 1200 modules that are certified content. And these are our partners, creating this content and making it stable and secure for everyone to use. So that, I think, far >> (mumbles) >> That was the coolest thing that we've done. >> Yeah, it's great to see that progress. Congratulations on the momentum since Ansible Fest. One of the other things talked about that back at that show, we talked about how analytics and automation, how those are going together, how's adoption been? Is this impossibly met? >> Adoption on the analytic side has been... It's been taking off. It was pretty nascent. I can tell you that, that we've grown by about five X there, but we started a little bit small. We had a few customers that signed up early on to do it. I think probably the more impressive thing is that, we have a couple of customers in markets that you would traditionally think, we're not going to get their data, they're more concerned about what we're sharing, but we have a major bank, we have a major manufacturer that have well over 10,000 systems providing data back into Red Hat that allows us then to analyze and provide a bunch of analytics back on their running estate. And I think that's amazing, seeing the big customers that are coming in from Marcus that you might think, we're probably not going to get a lot of uptake has been really exciting to me. >> All right, you talked a bit about how Ansible fits into the ecosystem, of course being at summit, want to understand a bit more how Ansible the latest of how it's fitting into the rest of the Red Hat portfolio. I've got interviews with Stephanie Shiraz, talking about you, Raul and Joe Fitzgerald, talking about ACM, your group I know is heavily involved working on a lot of those pieces. Help us understand how this is kind of a seamless portfolio. >> I think that's one of the most important things that we do within Red Hat team, is that we have to share the sufficiency across all the product groups and make them better and provide an additional enhanced value there. We've done a lot on the rail side, probably one of the maybe lesser known thing is that, we've been working really closely on openShift. And actually, we have a lot of customers now that really want the Ansible automation hub available on openShift as a first-class application. We're doing things, we're writing operators for those so that we can automate the updates and upgrades and back up and all of that important functionality, so that it's really easy, than to manage your Ansible automation hub, running on openShift, that's one big thing. And then we're going to integrate that really well into the advanced container management, that the team from IBM that came over is working towards. I have a really close partnership with ACM team to make sure that we can start to not only gather lists of affected systems, but then take that list and do a bunch of automations against it. >> (mumbles) >> That's one. On the real side, we've done a lot. We introduced at last summit rally, and we talked about having insights as part of that. Since then, we've been adding more and more capabilities into insights, and to enhance that value of the subscription route. We looked at adding in, well, advisor is now what we used to call insights. It's just something that advises you about problems or issues that may be occurring in your URL instances that are running on prem. We've also added in a drift service, so you can tell if your configurations are sort of drifting apart. We've added in a compliance checker, so you can define some kind of a policy or compliance that you want to enforce on all of your running instances, and we make sure that you're still compliant. We also have a vulnerability detector, which you'd kind of expect, so any nasty security issues that come along, we can pop those up and show you right away. And probably some of the... One of the newer things is, we allow you to do patching. And you can do that patching, right from cloud@redhat.com. We also have another new very exciting feature, which is Subscription Watch, also on cloud@redhat.com. And what this allows you to do is to see and manage all of your subscriptions across your entire hybrid estate. From what you're running on prem, to what you're running in any of the public clouds, we can actually track that for you. You can see what kind of usage you have. And then, make better economic decisions for yourself, and then be able to easily expand that usage if you want to, it used to be a little bit more difficult to do that. We're trying to make subscriptions just like as much in the background as possible to make it easier for our customers. >> Tim, one of one of the big changes customers have to go through is moving from, their environment in their data centers, to the leverage of SaaS and managing things that are outside of their control and the public cloud. You've got an engineering development team, and you've got software that went from, mostly going in customers data centers too, you've got SaaS offerings, you're living in the public cloud. Want to understand, what's changing in your world? What advice would you give to other people as to kind of the learnings that Red Hat has had going through those pieces? >> It's actually a kind of a neat story, because after we change to start making a lot of our services that we had just only shipping products on prem into cloud based services, we had to develop this platform to be able to host all of these services. We started with the insights platform, because we already had that running out in the public cloud. So that was the obvious first thing to base everything on. But we had to build out that platform so that it could support all these services, the ones I just talked about, that are with REL are really good examples. Between a policy, compliance drift, all of these different kinds of services that we're offering, we had to build out that set of capabilities and services in what we're calling sort of the cloud@redhat.com platform. What I'm seeing is that a lot of customers are going through some of these same kinds of thoughts. Like they have a myriad, let's say of applications that are running that they're trying to provide back into their their own company. Different divisions of a company, they have things that are running in the cloud, some things that are running on prem, and they want to start to be able to offer a more cohesive set of services, consolidate some of these, share some of the engineering effort that they have across their various teams. This is exactly the journey that we went through to get to cloud@redhat.com. Finding a surprising number of customers that are actually really interested just in that story, about how we did that. One of the things that we've found is, we've been working with the folks at the open innovation labs within Red Hat. And this is one of the transformation stories that they see constantly as well. We've worked with them and shared this, they're a great resource to help customers kind of think through that problem and get them into a new kind of a platform. But it's quite a journey. We've been really focused on the infrastructure and on prem. Moving to the cloud was a big. But I'll tell you it engineering can move so much faster in a SaaS service than it can with on prem software delivery. It's been remarkable how quickly we could get there. >> Tim, one other thing, if I look at Red Hat, you're a global company, most development organizations are highly distributed to begin with. So many companies today are now having to rapidly figure out how do I manage people that are working from home? How do I live in these environments? From an automation tooling, we'd love to hear any advice you have there, as well as just anything else from your engineering experience in your teams that other people might be able to learn from, as they're dealing with today's landscape. >> To be honest, this is a... We have never seen anything like this in our history, with this kind of pandemic that's happening worldwide. It's shifting everything about business. And it has been challenging just within Red Hat engineering for how we can manage the engineers and their expectations and how difficult it can be to work from home. I have amazing stories from my own engineers. I had an engineer who's in Spain and his wife is a nurse. She's on like 18-hour shifts, the hospital comes back, they have to separate, he's got the kids. And because they don't want them to get infected, it's a really, really difficult working situation for a lot of families out there to try to make it through this. One of the things at Red Hat is, we just have to recognize that it's okay to slow things down a little bit. Let our engineers not feel the pressure that they have to do both childcare and school-at-home and caring for sick relatives or sick family, as well as meet all of your deadlines, it's kind of too much. We've been really... We're trying to be very compassionate with our folks letting them know that we have their back, and it's going to be okay as we try to get ourselves through this ridiculously different time that we've never seen anything like this, like I said. From an engineering perspective, I think work-from-home has been, it's okay for some people. If you have a larger home, I think it's a little easier maybe to find a room that you can go into and do your work. For some, no, if they're in an apartment, or you're sharing with a bunch of friends, it's not your workplace. And it can be really challenging to figure out how to work for eight hours a day with sort of a lot of distractions or just feeling confined and it's just been really difficult for anybody that wants to try to get out, you go a little stir-crazy. The good thing I guess is that engineering is naturally lends itself to being able to be remote and work from home. We have an advantage that way, than other industries, which is great. But it's definitely been really challenging for our teams to be able to cope with this and all we can do is just be really understanding. >> Tim, we appreciate the stories, they're definitely everyone's working through some challenging times. Want to give you the final word as to really takeaways as to what should people be watching? What things should people be going back and looking at from an automation standpoint as they leave Red Hat Summit 2020? >> We're just going to continue to work with the community, work with our partners, get more certified content and continue to scale, the best way that we can for all of our users and our customers. That is the key focus. We want to continue automating and providing all of that flexibility. If you want all 4000 modules and a big download, we certainly are... We're going to continue to give you that option. But if you want to be able to start customizing what you download, maybe only relying on certified content, instead of community content, we're going to give you that option now as well, so that you know what you're running. And with the analytics, we're just scratching the surface here. We're getting some great data. It's helping us to develop new ways of insights into how your systems are running. And that'll get very exciting as we go forward. I know that we've seen like a Forex increase already in the amount of insights attached to REL, which is really great, and for now, at least in the hundreds of customers that are using the AI, I think as we show more value there, you'll get a lot more customers to provide some of their data which will allow us then collectively to come up with some really great analytics to help people become more efficient with your automation. >> Well, Tim Kramer, thank you so much for the updates. And thank you to everything your team's doing. And just a reminder to the audience, of course, these communities not only are important technical resources, but many of them you've made friends with over the years. If you need help, reach out to the community. There are so many good stories that can be found amongst these communities helping each other through these challenging times. Much more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2020. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you as always for watching theCube. 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