Live from London England, it's the CUBE covering .NEXT Conference Europe 2018 brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome Back to the CUBE here from London. Our reporting Nutanix NEXT 2018 in Europe. Next to me is Frans Coppus. You are a manager at ICT Driessen? I'm very curious. Driessen, customer Nutanix? I understand you among other software make HRM? >> Tell me about Driessen. How does that work? How does that work? >> Yeah, uh well Driessen is a family business. We are a business service provider for the public sector in the Netherlands The Driessen Group is actually a group of companies that make work possible. We do that through the offering  of several different services. You should think of connecting people to work, so a staffing function, but next to this , we also develop software and services to take over processes for other companies or to make processes easier. >> That sounds a bit like you're on the edge. On the one hand you are a Employment Placement company, helping people get work, but on the other hand, you seem to do something with software and delivering your services as a software product. How does that work? >> Yeah, and do We indeed. That's right. We deliver services to other processes make companies easier. Think of payroll and things like that, but also all kinds of other processes and that's what  we mainly use the digital services and we develop these ourselves. For example, you should think of  a package like AFAS profit , where AFAS profit falls short in some functionality , but which customers  would like to make use of. We can we who help these customers  to provide that extra functionality to improve processes. >> Yeah, that sounds like you are software development house. you develops yes the software. >> That's right. >> How about that? Do your on-premises? If you do in the cloud? Where working with your developers? How does that work? How does that work? >> Well, we do it with a club of about 25 software developers we in private service to have. Spread across a number of different companies we have, and the software we Developing running Indeed, partly on prem and partly also in the cloud. >> Yes I understand that you do for a year or half do with Nutanix such as underlay for your infrastructure. Can you explain how how together is how the services which Nutanix products you use? What advantages do you have it? >> Well, we indeed the beginning of last year we look at our data center to actually modernize. That was the rise. When we have oriented ourselves. We already had some interest in Nutanix. Are there going deeper into deepen and finally we indeed decided to limit to Nutanix choose that. To actually the entire data center, we had slowly going to replace by Nutanix. Um, so we are there put down a piece of hardware, but then also chosen as the AHV hypervisor layer. We came from VMWare. We have it all petted or migrated to the implementation itself completely very quickly should say importing t soup boiler and was really a piece of cake and Then we started to one for our VMs to migrate to the platform. Uh, and that we have this year we found rounded. Currently running our entire data center running on actually uh uh on Nutanix indeed. Yes, because what were the problems you hoping to solve? of And, then you should think about a particular piece Scalability is not it? So for example we fine with Nutanix in any case, could reasonably small start, but if necessary, uh easy to be scales. Performance was an issue on the old surroundings. We actually have completely resolved. I think the biggest uh what we the biggest challenge we had was to make it easier. We had Yes quite a complex landscape been built up over the years. Uh and um, well that was actually the main why we express sible for Nutanix have chosen. Yes, simplification of the whole landscape. Easy to manage, especially since we thus actually have a mixed environment. Deel where I click ofthe cloud? Uh, well that's fine with Nutanix to manage, so eh. >> Yeah, exactly. I imagine when he hey you are IT manager. I can imagine your role uh too changed huh? First it was take I to really focus on infrastructure, What was difficult was that many friction. Um, what's your role in the course of changing time? >> Yeah, no, that's exactly right. That role is changing. uh in Initially at very busy to focus after the operation. To put it all in keep air. Uh sorts of things you actually yes it sounds I think you would not actually working with it wants to keep. Uhm, uhm, and we now see. We see Now just that with fewer people and a much more simple way that environment can manage. That means you some more time for free, and the time, even trying especially uh to stop uh along with the business see how we can provide our services improve? How can we availability improve? And say to equal or less cost and with less effort. >> Yeah, because I assume that you have to code word to use some digital transformation that I take for you are also an issue. Yes. You can also just wants to more to move the client. How do you do that if like, hey if IT department? How how you slide closer against the business and Driessen itself but also to the customer? How does that work with you? >> Uh well, uh, let's say, the customer needs to of course translated into the business Go to frequent the software developers. So what really us is very important is the time-to-market. Development course is very fast. We work a lot on the basis of Procurement and tendering often various demands we put than we meet to come. Yes. So, time to market is very important that, uh, that's why we uh um with Nutanix able to actually faster to deploy new features to provide direction our software developers then with them to get started. >> Yeah, yeah, because you say your software developers can thus closer So sit closer to that business. That requiring less time to UH to lay the groundwork, as it were. Um, I'm looking for, they not here .NEXT, uh we have the keynotes seen a lot announcements. Nutanix started as if modernization of infrastructure of What you had here. Meanwhile, are 15 products. It has become much more gigantic. If you people around here are looking grown. 3500 people, so therefore I am a bit like it? How do you doing that? Do you walk here too a few days around. You've seen the keynotes. You see the crowds. What is your impression of the event? >> Well I must say, very cool eh, I'm I last year in Nice, eh it was a very good conference. That was the reason I was thinking of now, I'm going this year definitely return. It was really cool to see the first keynote, how much greater it has now become, the whole event, but also the success of Nutanix. I uh, I spoke last year in Nice yet some of my peers still 't doubt was whether they would over Steps to Nutanix. Well I told him what our experiences were with it. And uh, and said, I it can definitely recommend. Also say the Using the AHV as Hypervisor. In the meantime brand just, it's so much matured. Uh uh, there's so much more added. I was really what really impressed me over the last two days have seen all new products and adulthood and the simplicity of such products. Yes. Really super cool to see, uh, what I was really stuck, I really of was impressed, was particularly Frame. Frame is uh uh uh uh really super cool. That is also something we definitely presently to look for to use it. In addition, Beam is something that very appealing. I must say, we have now uh uh uh uh all say data center on prem. So Also my DR environment we have on prem, because when we made the decision, there was no Beam. Yes, if I would again to choose, I would absolutely sure choose the DR uh using to solve beam. There too, the simplicity with which you can manage. Uh that's really cool to see. Well, we will in the future ensure that species continue to follow developments and uh I know sure that in the future to work uh continue with products such as a beam and a frame for example. >> Yeah, because what you see uh huh, they the announcement made by the core product. Heh, the core of the core products to essentials, which is a bit of the uplift heh? Those are the following small steps you can convert, yes, and then you get enterprise. Yes. There are now especially the really new projects uh Xi SaaS products de Xi Cloud and uh, and I am very curious to now is look I also know from Nutanix heh from that perspective? Infrastructure, and I have seen them grow. And watching all the announcements they done. All those products they ge done. What would really be for you the, you know, What was with you the light that went so you say yes I'll go you know when I uh home After the weekend, here I'm going to stroke. Here I would like to know more. What is the one product that you now say, I really want to get to work? >> I think if I had to choose it, then I would say, then I'm going to frame me definitely started to look at how we can put that to say uh uh uh uh our employees easier by a work to provide when they for instance remote work or things like that. >> Yes, is also one of the uh the issues which you who wants you solve by Nutanix Heh? Traditionally, did Nutanix many VDI. Still does much VDI. Is that something that uh, where you go when Driessen? >> Yeah, well at least for a part of our I'm sure a staff uh uh ways to deal deploy Frame say as a substitute for a VDI environment yes. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Exactly. Yes. Exactly right. Uhm. >> And also I was really huh, and I did not think they were doing, but I understood so which uh Nutanix now we actually their own cloud is building. Yes. Yes that I am very curious what that is going to bring. Surely as say, seamlessly integrates with your back on prem omgeving. I actually find that to be the strength of this time of Nutanix heh? The that you you can switch easily between on your own prem Nutanix environment or a cloud environment. Yes. Well, if there is still a uh a Nutanix variation in the Cloud comes in, yes it is uh totally cool. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Yes. >> Last >> though demand. You have of course developers in dienst. We have today also in the keynote various announcements seen around cloud-native as nice hot. Heh? So Karbon, databases in the Cloud with Era with Buckets, S3, S3 storage. Uh, these are also things that you think of, hey, that my developers will also get to work? Yes. Yes. mac we stand on all to knock on the door. Who want to containers to work and that kind Affairs , Uh uh uh so that's very good to hear that Also there say Nutanix fully is doing, and how it integrates within uh Nutanix, so uh, yes, there will my Software developers will be very happy with it. Yes. >> Yeah, great! but congratulations. That sounds like really a top story. A very nice story about Driessen. how you Using Nutanix. Well, I wish you success with the following to step. Thank you. Which undoubtedly UH will come. uhm. And that was it for UH for now. Thanks for look at the Cube Together with Frans herein in London uh, and until next time.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante recent earnings reports from key enterprise software and infrastructure players underscore that tech spending remains robust in the post isolation economy especially for those companies that have figured out a cloud strategy now despite covert variant uncertainties and component shortages and hardware most leading tech names outperformed expectations this past week that said investors were not in the mood to reward all names and any variability in product mix or earnings outlook or other nuances were met with a tepid response from the street hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll provide you with commentary and data points on key tech companies that announced this past week including snowflake salesforce workday splunk elastic palo alto networks vmware dell pure storage hp inc and netapp let's start by rolling back a week or so and look at how stocks that are priced to perfection get impacted by any negative news back on august 20th we saw this headline hit snowflake stock falls as analyst says signings growth has slowed the analyst report was put out by a boutique firm cleveland research the stock took a double-digit hit as you can see here i immediately got several texts from investors who know i follow the company asking me what i thought now as a disclaimer i don't give stock picking advice please do your own research but between the cube wikibon and etr we do see a lot of data and i'm happy to share that which i did with this tweet it said lots of talk ahead of snowflake's earnings some analysts have said their data suggests a slowdown etr data looks pretty encouraging and i tagged merv adrian he's a sharp analyst over at gartner who follows data and database he responded i don't speculate about revenues but there's no discernible shift in our client conversations though interest still seems high okay cool but let's let's dig into the etr data a bit and see why we remained positive this is a larger and more detailed version of the chart in the tweet it's a candlestick that shows a time series of the spending data on snowflake using etr's net score methodology the stacked bars represent the percent of customers in the survey that are newly adding the snowflake platform the forest green indicates the number of customers reporting that their spending is increasing by six percent or more the gray is flat spend that's plus or minus five percent the pinkish stack that's decreasing spend by six percent or more and the bright red is where chucking the platform we're leaving now you subtract the reds from the greens and that yields a net score which for snowflake last survey was a very elevated 81.3 percent we've highlighted the spending velocity line that's net score at the top put a picture of that blue line for snowflake in your mind because we're going to come back to it the yellow line down below is market share which is a measure of the pervasiveness in the survey i.e mention share if you will so looking at this chart one might conclude that the lime green i.e new account acquisition is compressing however in further analyzing the data back in january 2019 snowflake's presence in the survey was much lower only 35 accounts in subsequent quarters that number has jumped to over between 120 and 140 snowflake accounts so big much bigger n so while the percentage of respondents may be shrinking the absolute number of new accounts is growing on the snowflake earnings call snowflake said that new customers increased this past quarter to 458 up from 397 in the same period last year what's also telling is the forest green on its very first earnings call as a public company snowflake cfo mike scarpelli said very clearly the company's revenue growth in the near term will come from existing customers and the forest green i.e existing customers spending more is expanding in the etr survey so very strong confirmation of that trend and note the red is virtually non-existent for snowflake so it's no surprise that snowflake handily beat its earnings on the 25th of august which prompted a flurry of texts to me saying you were right thanks don't thank me do your own research we're just one data source okay so here's a snapshot of some of the major players that announced earnings this past week this chart is our popular xy view with net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness in the survey in the horizontal plane we talked about snowflake already but i'll emphasize they've held that roughly eighty percent net score for ten plus quarterly surveys now and they've continued to move steadily to the right on the horizontal axis let's make some comments on these other names and then dig in a bit more salesforce of course they're the big player amongst these names that we're showing and as we've said in previous breaking analysis segments they have become the next great software company showing 20 plus growth for five consecutive quarters which is quite impressive splunk as we've reported has struggled in the survey but you can see splunk has a great presence in the data set they have an awesome customer base and the acquisition of signal fx plotted on the left with an elevated next net score represents a really good opportunity to enter new markets like observability and pull signalfx to the right to the rest of splunk's customers and that can help accelerate splunk's move toward a subscription model then there's workday we're plotting the company's core hcm business as well as its emerging financial software suite the latter represents workday's tam expansion opportunity and the company appears to be back on track to show sustained growth now let's dig a little deeper into these names and we'll start with salesforce here's the etr spending profile for salesforce salesforce as we showed earlier has a huge and growing presence in the market and a consistently elevated net score in the etr data and while the chart shows much more green than red and a strong uptick in spending momentum from last october survey this doesn't really tell the whole story salesforce's stock price rocketed out of the march 2020 crash and ran up to a peak last august and is on its way back salesforce has made a number of strategic acquisitions including tableau slack mulesoft and several other billion dollar plus buys as well as a number of smaller acquisitions this past quarter saw 23 revenue growth relative to last year with 20 percent plus operating margins that's huge salesforce's acquisition strategy is beginning to demonstrate the company's promised operating leverage and slack in our view will only add to that benefit including continuous improvement and free cash flow sales force revenue will blow through 25 billion dollars this fiscal year it's a company with a 250 billion dollar market cap and appears to be one a name that has meaningful upside opportunity okay let's take a quick look at splunk we're finally seeing an uptick in splunk's spending momentum with within the etr data set eric bradley and i have discussed this in previous breaking analysis segments the key point as we've reported is we see splunk as a company that has been in transition from a traditional license to an arr subscription model and finally the company is showing clarity that there's light at the end of that tunnel investors don't like companies in transition and like salesforce splunk's stock price ran up to an all-time high last august but then came down hard and never fully recovered but it has come off its may lows and there were some real positives this past quarter cloud annual recurring revenue for splunk this past quarter grew 72 percent and its bookings grew 20 29 year on year the company was conservative in its guidance and there still seems to be some uncertainty around cash flow but more clear guidance by splunk on the top line is a welcome sign and now another name that we've been following that announced earnings this week is elastic and as you can see by the etr data that company has an elevated net score with very little red in the bars now note that blue line while it's slowly decelerating it remains very strong and elevated remember the comment earlier i made about freezing that snowflake blue line in your head the reason we said that is because for snowflake to hold its roughly 80 net score position firmly over the past 10 plus quarters is quite astounding and for the most part it's unprecedented in the etr data set in recent memory back to elastic the company grew its top line by 45 which is a healthy beat and that helped operating margins come in above expectations elastic has become the open source poster child for observability but customers often cite challenges related to complexity and scaling with the need often to seek professional services help which sometimes impacts adoption and cost obviously but overall very strong report especially in its cloud business which grew 89 relative to last year all right let's pivot to infrastructure we're going to do that with palo alto networks and then look at a broader more traditional hardware and software players in february of 2020 we reported the valuation of divergence between palo alto networks and fortinet and we cited the challenges that palo alto was having around its shift to cloud that was a clear headwind at the time especially with regard to some of its go to market challenges at the same time we said that we were confident that palo alto would work through these issues and the csos from the etr panels along with other anecdotal information from the cube community suggested that the company would power through these problems well it has palo alto has a huge presence in the market and consistently elevated net scores as you can see here palo alto stock is trading near all-time highs and it reacted very well to its uh to the earnings report this past week where revenue grew nicely at 20 28 year on year the company has consistently impressed despite some hiccups of the past and appears to be well positioned for the emerging hybrid work economy okay now let's take a look at some of the key infrastructure players that announced this past week this chart shows our popular xy view with netscore spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share and or pervasiveness on the horizontal axis we'll start with vmware it has the biggest presence in the market amongst these names vmware's revenue grew nine percent in the quarter which was in line with estimates the company had a solid quarter but only marginally beat expectations and the stock got hit hard it was down 8 percent midday on friday vmware cited stronger than expected perpetual license sales and somewhat softer sas subscription revenue now it's not surprising that we're going to see some lumpiness in those two lines as the company transitions to a subscription model but investors clearly want to see more growth in sas and subscriptions than they do in the traditional perpetual license model vmware cloud on aws grew 80 and that's confirmed in the data here compute was also strong one concern in the etr data is the vmware cloud which is the the core the vm vmr cloud foundation vcf which you can see here is well off its january net score highs now it's possible the etr is picking up some of the conservative clients that don't want to move to an ar or subscription model it's unclear but we'll continue to watch that trend overall vmware's business model is solid in our view and very very strong now let's talk about dell next dell in our view had a great quarter it grew top-line revenues by 15 year-on-year its client business grew 27 percent and you can see the elevated dell laptop net net scores in this chart the isg business was up three percent that comprises service and networking which was up six percent and storage which was off one percent the storage business contin continues to struggle but management reported that its mid-range storage revenue was up 17 now the challenge here is that high-end storage it's cyclical it's exposed sometimes you know somewhat to mainframe cycles but but but but the other thing is that a lot of the mid-range capability is eating away at the high end not the least which by the way is is pure storage competing at the higher end but also dell's own mid-range business so that continues to be a drag on revenue the the size of the traditional high-end business that that v-max power max business still is is is quite large and the the new is not growing fast enough to offset the decline in in the old but i mean i saw these numbers from dell i was surprised to see the stock down nearly five percent at midday on friday and i think what's happening is a couple things one is that hpq hp inc which we show here at a lower net score than dell's laptop business cited supply chain issues and component shortages now dell cited the same but maybe it's off on sympathy it's clear to us that dell is doing a much better job than hp with regard to managing component shortages the frustrating thing for these companies is it might be a 50 part holding up a server or in dell's case or a laptop in dell and hpq's case but demand is good which is a positive but the biggest factor in dell stock price we think is it's getting dragged down with vmware in a way if you think about it with vmware's value comprising so much of dell's market cap being down only four percent while vmware is down eight percent implies that the core dell business is viewed positively by the street but i thought with the vmware spin coming later this year investors might gravitate more aggressively toward dell but that didn't happen maybe over time now you see netapp on the chart netapp beat on top line revenue and earnings this past quarter however the company has not performed well in the etr surveys for several quarters and has a negative net score this is due when you tear apart the the math this is due to a low number of new adoptions and a fat middle very big fat middle of flat spending and a pretty high churn in the data set now the company claims they've picked up 1500 new customers in its cloud business so maybe maybe the etr survey is not picking that up or perhaps it's existing customers that are moving to netapp's cloud service that they're counting as new that's unclear but netapp claims that its public cloud business grew 155 in the quarter regardless the street likes netapp's story the stock has been acting very well this year out passing outpacing the s p 500. now you also see pure on the chart with a nicely elevated net score the company beat top and bottom lines this quarter and its ceo charlie giancarlo promised roughly 20 percent revenue growth going forward the street sure liked that that story and the stock shot up nearly 20 percent on that news and you can see here a little drill down the etr spending data trends in the right direction for pure to support this momentum pure's messaging is all around a modern data platform and it's clear from customer conversations that its storage products are easier to use than traditional storage offerings and it has a leg up on the as a service trend which we've been reporting on which pure has been pursuing for a number of years but it's still a much smaller player a couple billion dollars than the dells and the netapps of the storage world but if it can continue on a strong growth trajectory it will of course become a larger custom company the question will be how to continue to expand its total available market now the obvious path has been share gains which over the years it has accomplished and has served them well but that won't be as easy as it was last decade when pure caught emc and netapp flat-footed without strong flash array strategies pure's port works acquisition is something to watch as well as it tries to transition the market to a true cloud-like program programmable infrastructure model infrastructure as code and we'll leave you with this thought about the infrastructure space generally in storage specifically while cloud storage has exploded over the past several years on-prem storage has been extremely soft this in our view has been due to the double whammy that we've reported the combination of cloud stealing share from on-prem and the big flash injection in other words the latter suppressed the need to buy more spinning spindles and controllers for better performance and it hurt demand you don't need to do that when you have all this flash headroom but as we predicted last year we believe that there's pent up demand as people go back to work and headquarters need refresh there's only so much blood that it managers can squeeze from the stone moving storage around optimizing servers and and improving things like utilization while at the same time maintaining adequate performance and doing so within some kind of reasonable window of a day storage is no longer monolithic there are emerging use cases especially ones that are data intensive different storage types are emerging as satya nadella said recently we've reached peak centralization and as such that will create tailwinds for storage offerings that can accommodate cloud and on-prem because it pros understand that moving data is expensive and risky it's best to keep data where it belongs for reasons of performance and of course compliance so it looks like there's a decent chance that the long storage winter is over and the market could return to solid growth even the face of a continued cloud explosion now to circle back quickly to the enterprise software business there seems to be no end in sight to the shift to cloud-based offerings both sas and snowflake-like consumption models of which we're big believers digital transformation initiatives are real they're meaningful and software spending we believe is going to be robust and power these transformations for quite some time okay that's it for today remember these episodes are all available as podcasts all you got to do is search breaking analysis podcast we publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can reach me at divalante on twitter or my linkedin posts or email me at david.vellante siliconangle.com please do check check out the etr website at etr.plus and see their new data packages and offerings for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr thanks for watching everybody be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> ServiceNow is a company that investors love to love, but there's caution in the investor community right now is confusion about transitory inflation and higher interest rates looms. ServiceNow also suffers from a perfection syndrome of sorts. The company has seen that the slightest misstep can cause many freak outs from the investor community. So what it's done is it's architected a financial and communications model that allows it to beat expectations and raise its outlook on a consistent basis. Regardless, ServiceNow appears to be on track to vie for what its CEO Bill McDermott refers to as the next great enterprise software company. Wait, I thought Marc Benioff had his hands on that steering wheel. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll dig into one of the companies we began following almost 10 years ago and provide some thoughts on ServiceNow's March to 15 billion by 2026, which we think is a highly probable achievement. In 2020, despite the contraction in IT spending, SeviceNow outperformed both the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ, but here's a view of 2021. And you can see while the stock has done well since it saw a softness in May and again in early June, and it bounced off that double bottom, it's performance is well below those other benchmarks. This is not a big surprise given the fact that this is a high growth stock and we all know that those names with high multiples get hurt in an inflationary environment, but still the gaps are notable. This is especially true given the performance of the company. It's not often that you see a company with four to $5 billion in revenue growing at a 30% clip, throwing off billions of dollars in free cash flow and increasing operating margins at 100 basis points a year and promising to do that over the next several years. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen that before. I remember years ago, when the trade press was criticizing SeviceNow for its lofty valuation, despite the fact that it was losing money, then CEO, Frank Slootman said to me, "Dave, we can be highly profitable tomorrow if we want it to be, but this is a marathon and we're planning to go big." So essentially Slootman was telling me that this company was going to be an ATM machine that prints money. And that seems to be how it's shaping up. I happened to be at SeviceNow headquarters in 2017, literally the first day on the job for John Donahoe, the CEO replaced Slootman, and I remember while I was there thinking Donahoe was certainly capable, but why the heck I said, would the board let Frank Slootman get away? You know what? It turned great for Slootman, he's at snowflake. Donahoe, I always felt was a consumer guy anyway, and not long for SeviceNow. And now you have this guy, new CEO, Bill McDermott at the helm. He's not a more qualified CEO for the company in my view. About two months ago, McDermott led a virtual investor day. We've had McDermott on theCUBE a couple of times back when he was CEO of SAP and this individual is very compelling. He's got JFK like looks and charisma, but more than that, he's passionate and convincing. And he obviously knows enterprise software. And with conviction, he laid the groundwork for how SeviceNow will get to $10 billion in revenue by 2024 on its way to 15 billion two years thereafter. And one of the big things McDermott's stressed was they're going to get there without any big M&A moves. And that's important because previously the door was left open for that possibility. And now the company is assuring investors that it can get there organically, even with slower growth. So this chart implies no big M&A, and you can see Slootman handed over the reigns at that year one tick on the horizontal axis. This was not a turnaround story. It was a rocket ship at the time. And look at the logos on this chart. This is a revenue view and SeviceNow is aiming to be the fastest to get to 10 billion in software industry history. SeviceNow is valuation just to sort of shift gears here for a minute blew by workdays years ago. Its sites are now set on SAP which is currently valued at 170 billion. And then there's Oracle and Salesforce. They're at around 250 billion and 225 billion in valuation respectively. And these lines back to revenue show the trajectory that these companies took to get to 10 billion. And you can see how SeviceNow plans to get there with those dotted lines. And this is why I call this a collision course with Salesforce, because I think Marc Benioff might say, "Hey, we are ready." Are the next great enterprise software company. We have no plans to give up that post, that mantle anytime soon. I want to share a clip from four years ago. something we've been saying for a long, long time. Roll the clip. >> As they say their goal now is to be four billion by 2020. It feels like, you know, when we first covered SeviceNow knowledge, we said, wow, this company reminds us a lot of the early days of Salesforce. They've got this platform you can develop on this platform, you know, call it paths or, you know, whatever you want to call it, but we at the time said, they're on a collision course with Salesforce. Now there's plenty of room for both of those companies in the marketplace. Salesforce obviously focused predominantly on Salesforce automation, SeviceNow really on workflow automation, but you can see those sort of two markets coming together. >> Now you may be thinking isn't Salesforce's revenue like 5X that of SeviceNow? And yes it is. But I would say a couple of things. One is that Salesforce has gotten to where it is with a lot of M&A, more than 60 acquisitions. At some high profile wants to like slack and Tableau as well as MuleSoft and Heroku back in the day and many others. So we'll see how far McDermott can get before he reverts to his inquisitive self that we saw at SAP. But the second thing I'll say is serviceNow positions itself as the platform of platforms. And the thing is it runs its own cloud. And when it does acquisitions, it replatforms the acquiree into the now platform so that it can drive integrations more seamlessly. That's fundamentally part of its value proposition, a big part of its value proposition. And that means it's somewhat limited on the acquisitions it can make, it has to be pretty selective. Otherwise it's got to do a heavy lift to get it the now platform. It's the power of the models, especially if customers can get to a single CMDB, that configuration database management system, which by the way, a lot of customers never get to that kind of skirt that, but remember SeviceNow is like the ERP for IT. So the more you can get to a single data model, the more effective you're going to be, especially in this data era where you got to put data at the core of your organization, something we've talked about a lot. And the third thing I'll mention the SeviceNow wants to use this platform to attack what it sees as a very large TAM as shown here. Now, a couple of things I want to point out. One is when SeviceNow IPO in 2012, a lot of the analysts said that they were way overvalued because they were in a market. It was help desk and writing tickets was a $2 billion business that was in decline and BMC remedy. Wasn't really that big of a base to attack. In 2013, the Wikibon team took a stab at sizing the TAM. I dug back into the old Wiki. We had well over 30 billion at the time and we expected the company to move deeper into IT and then beyond IT into lines of business and line of business management. Yeah, we felt we were being conservative. We thought the number could be as big as 100 billion, but we felt like putting that number out there, was too aggressive but, you know, it turns out from SeviceNow standpoint, it sees these new software opportunities coming together. And SeviceNow in a way they can double dip both in and beyond their current markets. What I mean by that is it can partner with, for instance, HCM vendors and then at the same time offer employee workflows. They can partner or even purchase RPA tools from specialists like UI path or automation anywhere. And it can go acquire a company which it did like Intel a bot and integrate what I would consider lighter-weight RPA into its platform. So it can manage workflows for best of breed and pick off functionality throughout the software stack. Now what's interesting in this chart is first, the size of the TAM that SeviceNow sees 175 billion, but also how it's now reorganizing its business around workflows, which you see in the left-hand side. This was done of course, to simplify the many, many, many things that you can buy from SeviceNow. But there's also speculation that SeviceNow is leveraging its orchestration and service catalog capabilities, which are meaningful from a revenue standpoint and using them to power these workflows because the way it was organized was both confusing and not as effective as it could be. Now, it's well known that SeviceNow has ITSM this comprises the biggest piece of its revenue pie, probably a couple billion. And it's adding to that with ITSM pro and ITSM enterprise going deeper, deeper into the ITSM space. And it's ITAM business is also doing well against the likes of Datadog and Elastic and Splunk and others and its acquisition of LightStep. It's going to push it further into this space, which is both crowded is morphing into observability as we've been reporting. What's unclear though is how well, for instance, HR and the CSM businesses are doing as sort of standalone businesses, you might remember they used to be standalone businesses with standalone GMs. They've sort of changed that up a little bit. So this is potentially not only a way to simplify, but also shuffle the deck chairs a bit and maybe prop up the non IT workflows, which then allows SeviceNow to show this chart, which essentially says to the street, see, we have this huge TAM and our TAM expansion strategy is working as the overall business is growing nicely yet the mix is shifting toward customer, employee and creator workflows. See how awesome our business is and see how smart we are. So this is possibly a way to hide some of the warts and accentuate the growth. Look, there's not a lot to criticize SeviceNow about, but they've been pretty good at featuring what some perceive as weaknesses. Like for instance, the way it marketed it's a multi-instance and turned that into an advantage as a better model. Even though the whole cloud world was going multitenant and within a ServiceNow you got to really plan new releases, which they drop every six months, although CJ decide. So he's SeviceNows head of products. He did say at the investor meeting, that event that they held last May, that they do certain releases now bi-monthly and even some bi-weekly. So, yeah, maybe a little bit of nitpicking here, but I always liked to question when such changes are made to the reporting structures to the street. And if workflows are the new black, so to speak, I wonder will SeviceNow start pricing by workflows versus what really has been a legacy of, you know, what's your ticket volume and how many agents need access to the model and we'll charge you accordingly? Now, I'm not a service pricing expert and they don't make it easy to figure out that pricing. So let's dig a little bit more on that and keep an eye on it. Now I want to turn to the customers survey data from ETR on ServiceNow. First, here's the latest update on IT spending from ETR, something that we've been tracking for quite some time. We've been consistently saying to expect this year a seven to 8% growth for 2021 IT spend off of last year's contraction. And the latest ETR survey data puts it right at 8%. So we really liked that number. You know, could even be higher push 10% this year. Now, let's look at the spending profile within the ETR dataset. Of the 1100 plus respondents to this quarter, there were 377 SeviceNow customers, and this chart shows the breakdown of net score or spending velocity among those respondents. Remember, net score is a measure of that spending momentum. What it does is it takes the lime green bar, which is adopting new, that says 11% of that 377 customers are adopting ServiceNow for the first time. It takes that lime green and it adds the forest green bar that's growth in spending of 6% or more this half relative to the first half. That's 43% of the customers that have been surveyed here. And then it subtracts out the reds, which is that pinkish is spending less, that's 3%, small number of spending less. And then the bright red is we're leaving the platform. That's a minuscule 1% of the respondents. And you can see the rest in that gray area is flat spending, which is ignored. And so what this does is it calculates out, you'd take the greens minus the reds. It calculates out to a net score 50% for SeviceNow, which is well above that magic 40% elevated mark that we'd like to see. It's rare for a company of this size, except for the hyperscalers. You see AWS and Microsoft and Google are up that high and oh, there's another great enterprise software company at the 45% net score level. Guess who that is, salesforce.com. But anyway, it's rare to see that large of a company have that much spending momentum in the ETR surveys. Now let's take a look at the time series data for ServiceNow. This chart shows the net score granularity over time. So you see the bars, that time series, the blue line is net score. And you can see that it was dragged down during last year's lockdown. As, even though SeviceNow did pretty well last year and it's now spiking back to pre-COVID levels, which is a very positive sign for the company. That red call-out that ETR makes it shows market share. That's an indicator of pervasiveness in the dataset. I'm not overlyconcern there that downturn. I don't think it's a meaningful indicator because ServiceNow revenue is skewed towards a big spender accounts and this is an account unit indicator, if you will not spending level metric. And okay, and here's another reason and why I'm not concerned about SeviceNow is a so-called market share number in the ETR dataset as ETR defines it. This is an X, Y Z view chart that we'd like to show here. We've got net score on the vertical axis and market share in the horizontal plane. This is focusing on enterprise software. So remember that 40% red line is the magic level, anything above that is really indicative of momentum. Oh look, there's Salesforce and ServiceNow on that little collision course that I talked about. Now, CEO McDermott, I would say as by the way, would his predecessors, look, we're a platform of platforms and we partner with other companies, we'll meet at the customer level and sure we'll integrate functions where we think it can add value to customers. But we also understand we have to work with the vendors that our customers are using. So it's all good, plenty of room for growth for all of us, which by the way is true. But I would say this, anyone who's ever been in the enterprise software industry knows that enterprise software execs and their salespeople believe that every dollar spent on software should go to them. And if it's a good market with momentum and growth, they believe they can either organically write software to deliver customer function and value, or they can acquire to fill gaps. So, well, what McDermott would say is true. The likes of Oracle, Microsoft, SAP, Salesforce, Infor, et cetera, they all want as big of a budget piece as possible in the enterprise software space. That's just the way it is. Now, we're going to close with some anecdotal comments from ETR insights, formerly called VENN, which is a round table discussion with CXOs. You can read the summaries when we post on Wikibon and SiliconANGLE but let me summarize. This first comment comes from an assistant VP in retail who says SeviceNow is a key part of their digital transformation. They moved off of BMC remedy two years ago for the global ticketing system. And this person is saying that while the platform is extremely powerful, you got to buy into specific modules to just get one feature that you want. You may not need a lot of the other features, so it starts to get expensive. The other thing this individual is saying is initially, it's a very services heavy project. And so I'll tell you, when you look at the SeviceNow ecosystem the big SIs, the big names, they have big appetites. They love to eat at the trough as I sometimes say, and they want big clients with big budgets. So if you're not one of those top 500 or 700 customers, the big name SIs, you know, they might not be for you. They're not going to pay attention to you. They're going after the big prizes. So what I would suggest is you call up someone like Jason Wojahn of third era, he's the CEO over there and he's got a lot of experience in this space or some more specialized SeviceNow consultancy like them because you're going to get better value for the money. And you're going to get short-term ROI faster with a long-term sustainable ROI as a measurable objective. And I think this last comment sums it up nice, let me to skip over the second one and go just jump to the third one. This basically says the platform is integrated. It's like a mesh. It's not a bunch of stovepipes and cul-de-sacs. Yes it's expensive, but people love it. And like the iPhone, it just works. And their feature pace is accelerating. So pretty strong testimonials, but I want to keep an eye on price transparency any possible backlash there and how the ecosystem evolves. It's something that we called out early on. It's an indicator and SeviceNow needs to continue to invest in that partner network is especially as it builds out its vertical industry practices and expands internationally. Okay, we'll leave it there for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes they're all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for breaking analysis podcast. You can always connect with me on Twitter @DVellante or email me @david.vellantesiliconangle.com. Appreciate the comments on LinkedIn. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> On February 19th of this year, Barron's dropped an article declaring Oracle, a cloud giant and the article explained why the stock was a buy. Investors took notice and the stock ran up 18% over the next nine trading days and it peaked on March 9th, the day before Oracle announced its latest earnings. The company beat consensus earnings on both top-line and EPS last quarter, but investors, they did not like Oracle's tepid guidance and the stock pulled back. But it's still, as you can see, well above its pre-Barron's article price. What does all this mean? Is Oracle a cloud giant? What are its growth prospects? Now many parts of Oracle's business are growing including Fusion ERP, Fusion HCM, NetSuite, we're talking deep into the double digits, 20 plus percent growth. It's OnPrem legacy licensed business however, continues to decline and that moderates, the overall company growth because that OnPrem business is so large. So the overall Oracle's growing in the low single digits. Now what stands out about Oracle is it's recurring revenue model. That figure, the company says now it represents 73% of its revenue and that's going to continue to grow. Now two other things stood out on the earnings call to us. First, Oracle plans on increasing its CapEX by 50% in the coming quarter, that's a lot. Now it's still far less than AWS Google or Microsoft Spend on capital but it's a meaningful data point. Second Oracle's consumption revenue for Autonomous Database and Cloud Infrastructure, OCI or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure grew at 64% and 139% respectively and these two factors combined with the CapEX Spend suggest that the company has real momentum. I mean look, it's possible that the CapEx announcements maybe just optics in they're front loading, some spend to show the street that it's a player in cloud but I don't think so. Oracle's Safra Catz's usually pretty disciplined when it comes to it's spending. Now today on March 17th, Oracle announced updates towards Autonomous Data Warehouse and with me is David Floyer who has extensively researched Oracle over the years and today we're going to unpack the Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, ADW announcement. What it means to customers but we also want to dig into Oracle's strategy. We want to compare it to some other prominent database vendors specifically, AWS and Snowflake. David Floyer, Welcome back to The Cube, thanks for making some time for me. >> Thank you Vellante, great pleasure to be here. >> All right, I want to get into the news but I want to start with this idea of the autonomous database which Oracle's announcement today is building on. Oracle uses the analogy of a self-driving car. It's obviously powerful metaphor as they call it the self-driving database and my takeaway is that, this means that the system automatically provisions, it upgrades, it does all the patching for you, it tunes itself. Oracle claims that all reduces labor costs or admin costs by 90%. So I ask you, is this the right interpretation of what Oracle means by autonomous database? And is it real? >> Is that the right interpretation? It's a nice analogy. It's a test to that analogy, isn't it? I would put it as the first stage of the Autonomous Data Warehouse was to do the things that you talked about, which was the tuning, the provisioning, all of that sort of thing. The second stage is actually, I think more interesting in that what they're focusing on is making it easy to use for the end user. Eliminating the requirement for IT, staff to be there to help in the actual using of it and that is a very big step for them but an absolutely vital step because all of the competition focusing on ease of use, ease of use, ease of use and cheapness of being able to manage and deploy. But, so I think that is the really important area that Oracle has focused on and it seemed to have done so very well. >> So in your view, is this, I mean you don't really hear a lot of other companies talking about this analogy of the self-driving database, is this unique? Is it differentiable for Oracle? If so, why, or maybe you could help us understand that a little bit better. >> Well, the whole strategy is unique in its breadth. It has really brought together a whole number of things together and made it of its type the best. So it has a single, whole number of data sources and database types. So it's got a very broad range of different ways that you can look at the data and the second thing that is also excellent is it's a platform. It is fully self provisioned and its functionality is very, very broad indeed. The quality of the original SQL and the query languages, etc, is very, very good indeed and it's a better agent to do joints for example, is excellent. So all of the building blocks are there and together with it's sharing of the same data with OLTP and inference and in memory data paces as well. All together the breadth of what they have is unique and very, very powerful. >> I want to come back to this but let's get into the news a little bit and the announcement. I mean, it seems like what's new in the autonomous data warehouse piece for Oracle's new tooling around four areas that so Andy Mendelsohn, the head of this group instead of the guy who releases his baby, he talked about four things. My takeaway, faster simpler loads, simplified transforms, autonomous machine learning models which are facilitating, What do you call it? Citizen data science and then faster time to insights. So tooling to make those four things happen. What's your take and takeaways on the news? >> I think those are all correct. I would add the ease of use in terms of being able to drag and drop, the user interface has been dramatically improved. Again, I think those, strategically are actually more important that the others are all useful and good components of it but strategically, I think is more important. There's ease of use, the use of apex for example, are more important. And, >> Why are they more important strategically? >> Because they focus on the end users capability. For example, one of other things that they've started to introduce is Python together with their spatial databases, for example. That is really important that you reach out to the developer as they are and what tools they want to use. So those type of ease of use things, those types of things are respecting what the end users use. For example, they haven't come out with anything like click or Tableau. They've left that there for that marketplace for the end user to use what they like best. >> Do you mean, they're not trying to compete with those two tools. They indeed had a laundry list of stuff that they supported, Talend, Tableau, Looker, click, Informatica, IBM, I had IBM there. So their claim was, hey, we're open. But so that's smart. That's just, hey, they realized that people use these tools. >> I'm trying to exclude other people, be a platform and be an ecosystem for the end users. >> Okay, so Mendelsohn who made the announcement said that Oracle's the smartphone of databases and I think, I actually think Alison kind of used that or maybe that was us planing to have, I thought he did like the iPhone of when he announced the exit data way back when the integrated hardware and software but is that how you see it, is Oracle, the smartphone of databases? >> It is, I mean, they are trying to own the complete stack, the hardware with the exit data all the way up to the databases at the data warehouses and the OLTP databases, the inference databases. They're trying to own the complete stack from top to bottom and that's what makes autonomy process possible. You can make it autonomous when you control all of that. Take away all of the requirements for IT in the business itself. So it's democratizing the use of data warehouses. It is pushing it out to the lines of business and it's simplifying it and making it possible to push out so that they can own their own data. They can manage their own data and they do not need an IT person from headquarters to help them. >> Let's stay in this a little bit more and then I want to go into some of the competitive stuff because Mendelsohn mentioned AWS several times. One of the things that struck me, he said, hey, we're basically one API 'cause we're doing analytics in the cloud, we're doing data in the cloud, we're doing integration in the cloud and that's sort of a big part of the value proposition. He made some comparisons to Redshift. Of course, I would say, if you can't find a workload where you beat your big competitor then you shouldn't be in this business. So I take those things with a grain of salt but one of the other things that caught me is that migrating from OnPrem to Oracle, Oracle Cloud was very simple and I think he might've made some comparisons to other platforms. And this to me is important because he also brought in that Gartner data. We looked at that Gardner data when they came out with it in the operational database class, Oracle smoked everybody. They were like way ahead and the reason why I think that's important is because let's face it, the Mission Critical Workloads, when you look at what's moving into AWS, the Mission Critical Workloads, the high performance, high criticality OLTP stuff. That's not moving in droves and you've made the point often that companies with their own cloud particularly, Oracle you've mentioned this about IBM for certain, DB2 for instance, customers are going to, there should be a lower risk environment moving from OnPrem to their cloud, because you could do, I don't think you could get Oracle RAC on AWS. For example, I don't think EXIF data is running in AWS data centers and so that like component is going to facilitate migration. What's your take on all that spiel? >> I think that's absolutely right. You all crown Jewels, the most expensive and the most valuable applications, the mission-critical applications. The ones that have got to take a beating, keep on taking. So those types of applications are where Oracle really shines. They own a very large high percentage of those Mission Critical Workloads and you have the choice if you're going to AWS, for example of either migrating to Oracle on AWS and that is frankly not a good fit at all. There're a lot of constraints to running large systems on AWS, large mission critical systems. So that's not an option and then the option, of course, that AWS will push is move to a Roller, change your way of writing applications, make them tiny little pieces and stitch them all together with microservices and that's okay if you're a small organization but that has got a lot of problems in its own, right? Because then you, the user have to stitch all those pieces together and you're responsible for testing it and you're responsible for looking after it. And that as you grow becomes a bigger and bigger overhead. So AWS, in my opinion needs to have a move towards a tier-one database of it's own and it's not in that position at the moment. >> Interesting, okay. So, let's talk about the competitive landscape and the choices that customers have. As I said, Mendelssohn mentioned AWS many times, Larry on the calls often take shy, it's a compliment to me. When Larry Ellison calls you out, that means you've made it, you're doing well. We've seen it over the years, whether it's IBM or Workday or Salesforce, even though Salesforce's big Oracle customer 'cause AWS, as we know are Oracle customer as well, even though AWS tells us they've off called when you peel the onion >> Five years should be great, some of the workers >> Well, as I said, I believe they're still using Oracle in certain workloads. Way, way, we digress. So AWS though, they take a different approach and I want to push on this a little bit with database. It's got more than a dozen, I think purpose-built databases. They take this kind of right tool for the right job approach was Oracle there converging all this function into a single database. SQL JSON graph databases, machine learning, blockchain. I'd love to talk about more about blockchain if we have time but seems to me that the right tool for the right job purpose-built, very granular down to the primitives and APIs. That seems to me to be a pretty viable approach versus kind of a Swiss Army approach. How do you compare the two? >> Yes, and it is to many initial programmers who are very interested for example, in graph databases or in time series databases. They are looking for a cheap database that will do the job for a particular project and that makes, for the program or for that individual piece of work is making a very sensible way of doing it and they pay for ads on it's clear cloud dynamics. The challenge as you have more and more data and as you're building up your data warehouse in your data lakes is that you do not want to have to move data from one place to another place. So for example, if you've got a Roller,, you have to move the database and it's a pretty complicated thing to do it, to move it to Redshift. It's a five or six steps to do that and each of those costs money and each of those take time. More importantly, they take time. The Oracle approach is a single database in terms of all the pieces that obviously you have multiple databases you have different OLTP databases and data warehouse databases but as a single architecture and a single design which means that all of the work in terms of moving stuff from one place to another place is within Oracle itself. It's Oracle that's doing that work for you and as you grow, that becomes very, very important. To me, very, very important, cost saving. The overhead of all those different ones and the databases themselves originate with all as open source and they've done very well with it and then there's a large revenue stream behind the, >> The AWS, you mean? >> Yes, the original database is in AWS and they've done a lot of work in terms of making it set with the panels, etc. But if a larger organization, especially very large ones and certainly if they want to combine, for example data warehouse with the OLTP and the inference which is in my opinion, a very good thing that they should be trying to do then that is incredibly difficult to do with AWS and in my opinion, AWS has to invest enormously in to make the whole ecosystem much better. >> Okay, so innovation required there maybe is part of the TAM expansion strategy but just to sort of digress for a second. So it seems like, and by the way, there are others that are doing, they're taking this converged approach. It seems like that is a trend. I mean, you certainly see it with single store. I mean, the name sort of implies that formerly MemSQL I think Monte Zweben of splice machine is probably headed in a similar direction, embedding AI in Microsoft's, kind of interesting. It seems like Microsoft is willing to build this abstraction layer that hides that complexity of the different tooling. AWS thus far has not taken that approach and then sort of looking at Snowflake, Snowflake's got a completely different, I think Snowflake's trying to do something completely different. I don't think they're necessarily trying to take Oracle head-on. I mean, they're certainly trying to just, I guess, let's talk about this. Snowflake simplified EDW, that's clear. Zero to snowflake in 90 minutes. It's got this data cloud vision. So you sign on to this Snowflake, speaking of layers they're abstracting the complexity of the underlying cloud. That's what the data cloud vision is all about. They, talk about this Global Mesh but they've not done a good job of explaining what the heck it is. We've been pushing them on that, but we got, >> Aspiration of moment >> Well, I guess, yeah, it seems that way. And so, but conceptually, it's I think very powerful but in reality, what snowflake is doing with data sharing, a lot of reading it's probably mostly read-only and I say, mostly read-only, oh, there you go. You'll get better but it's mostly read and so you're able to share the data, it's governed. I mean, it's exactly, quite genius how they've implemented this with its simplicity. It is a caching architecture. We've talked about that, we can geek out about that. There's good, there's bad, there's ugly but generally speaking, I guess my premise here I would love your thoughts. Is snowflakes trying to do something different? It's trying to be not just another data warehouse. It's not just trying to compete with data lakes. It's trying to create this data cloud to facilitate data sharing, put data in the hands of business owners in terms of a product build, data product builders. That's a different vision than anything I've seen thus far, your thoughts. >> I agree and even more going further, being a place where people can sell data. Put it up and make it available to whoever needs it and making it so simple that it can be shared across the country and across the world. I think it's a very powerful vision indeed. The challenge they have is that the pieces at the moment are very, very easy to use but the quality in terms of the, for example, joints, I mentioned, the joints were very powerful in Oracle. They don't try and do joints. They, they say >> They being Snowflake, snowflake. Yeah, they don't even write it. They would say use another Postgres >> Yeah. >> Database to do that. >> Yeah, so then they have a long way to go. >> Complex joints anyway, maybe simple joints, yeah. >> Complex joints, so they have a long way to go in terms of the functionality of their product and also in my opinion, they sure be going to have more types of databases inside it, including OLTP and they can do that. They have obviously got a great market gap and they can do that by acquisition as well as they can >> They've started. I think, I think they support JSON, right. >> Do they support JSON? And graph, I think there's a graph database that's either coming or it's there, I can't keep all that stuff in my head but there's no reason they can't go in that direction. I mean, in speaking to the founders in Snowflake they were like, look, we're kind of new. We would focus on simple. A lot of them came from Oracle so they know all database and they know how hard it is to do things like facilitate complex joints and do complex workload management and so they said, let's just simplify, we'll put it in the cloud and it will spin up a separate data warehouse. It's a virtual data warehouse every time you want one to. So that's how they handle those things. So different philosophy but again, coming back to some of the mission critical work and some of the larger Oracle customers, they said they have a thousand autonomous database customers. I think it was autonomous database, not ADW but anyway, a few stood out AON, lift, I think Deloitte stood out and as obviously, hundreds more. So we have people who misunderstand Oracle, I think. They got a big install base. They invest in R and D and they talk about lock-in sure but the CIO that I talked to and you talked to David, they're looking for business value. I would say that 75 to 80% of them will gravitate toward business value over the fear of lock-in and I think at the end of the day, they feel like, you know what? If our business is performing, it's a better business decision, it's a better business case. >> I fully agree, they've been very difficult to do business with in the past. Everybody's in dread of the >> The audit. >> The knock on the door from the auditor. >> Right. >> And that from a purchasing point of view has been really bad experience for many, many customers. The users of the database itself are very happy indeed. I mean, you talk to them and they understand why, what they're paying for. They understand the value and in terms of availability and all of the tools for complex multi-dimensional types of applications. It's pretty well, the only game in town. It's only DB2 and SQL that had any hope of doing >> Doing Microsoft, Microsoft SQL, right. >> Okay, SQL >> Which, okay, yeah, definitely competitive for sure. DB2, no IBM look, IBM lost its dominant position in database. They kind of seeded that. Oracle had to fight hard to win it. It wasn't obvious in the 80s who was going to be the database King and all had to fight. And to me, I always tell people the difference is that the chairman of Oracle is also the CTO. They spend money on R and D and they throw off a ton of cash. I want to say something about, >> I was just going to make one extra point. The simplicity and the capability of their cloud versions of all of this is incredibly good. They are better in terms of spending what you need or what you use much better than AWS, for example or anybody else. So they have really come full circle in terms of attractiveness in a cloud environment. >> You mean charging you for what you consume. Yeah, Mendelsohn talked about that. He made a big point about the granularity, you pay for only what you need. If you need 33 CPUs or the other databases you've got to shape, if you need 33, you've got to go to 64. I know that's true for everyone. I'm not sure if that's true too for snowflake. It may be, I got to dig into that a little bit, but maybe >> Yes, Snowflake has got a front end to hiding behind. >> Right, but I didn't want to push it that a little bit because I want to go look at their pricing strategies because I still think they make you buy, I may be wrong. I thought they make you still do a one-year or two-year or three-year term. I don't know if you can just turn it off at any time. They might allow, I should hold off. I'll do some more research on that but I wanted to make a point about the audits, you mentioned audits before. A big mistake that a lot of Oracle customers have made many times and we've written about this, negotiating with Oracle, you've got to bring your best and your brightest when you negotiate with Oracle. Some of the things that people didn't pay attention to and I think they've sort of caught onto this is that Oracle's SOW is adjudicate over the MSA, a lot of legal departments and procurement department. Oh, do we have an MSA? With all, Yes, you do, okay, great and because they think the MSA, they then can run. If they have an MSA, they can rubber stamp it but the SOW really dictateS and Oracle's gotcha there and they're really smart about that. So you got to bring your best and the brightest and you've got to really negotiate hard with Oracle, you get trouble. >> Sure. >> So it is what it is but coming back to Oracle, let's sort of wrap on this. Dominant position in mission critical, we saw that from the Gartner research, especially for operational, giant customer base, there's cloud-first notion, there's investing in R and D, open, we'll put a question Mark around that but hey, they're doing some cool stuff with Michael stuff. >> Ecosystem, I put that, ecosystem they're promoting their ecosystem. >> Yeah, and look, I mean, for a lot of their customers, we've talked to many, they say, look, there's actually, a tail at the tail way, this saves us money and we don't have to migrate. >> Yeah. So interesting, so I'll give you the last word. We started sort of focusing on the announcement. So what do you want to leave us with? >> My last word is that there are platforms with a certain key application or key parts of the infrastructure, which I think can differentiate themselves from the Azures or the AWS. and Oracle owns one of those, SAP might be another one but there are certain platforms which are big enough and important enough that they will, in my opinion will succeed in that cloud strategy for this. >> Great, David, thanks so much, appreciate your insights. >> Good to be here. Thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(thoughtful electronic music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Enterprise applications are an enormous market, and they're enormously important to organizations globally. Essentially, the world's businesses are running on enterprise applications. Companies' processes are wired into these systems, and the investments that they make in people, process, and technology are vital to these companies' success. But it's complicated because many of these systems are decades old. Markets have changed, but the ERP system for example fundamentally hasn't. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. This week, we're going to do a data download on the enterprise software space, and put forth some themes in our thesis around this very important segment. I'd like to do a shout-out to my friend Sarbjeet Johal, who helped me frame this segment, and he's a strategic thinker and he shared some excellent insights for this episode. What I'd first like to do is let's lay out the scope of what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to focus on the core enterprise apps that companies rely on to run their businesses. Talkin' about the systems of record here, the ERP, the financial systems, HR, CRMs, service management we'll put in there. We may touch on some of the other areas, but this is core that we're going to drill into. This is a big, big market. Customers spend many hundreds of billions of dollars in this area, you could argue about a half a trillion. And it's a mature market, as you'll see from the data. Look, it's good to be in the technology business today. This business is doing better than most, and within the technology business, it's better to be in software because of the economics and scale. And if you have a SaaS cloud model, it's even better. But the market, it is fragmented, not nearly as much as it used to be, but there are many specialized areas where leaders have emerged. ServiceNow and ITSM or Workday and HCM are good examples of companies that've specialized and then exploded, first as we saw ServiceNow blow past Workday's valuation. It was nearly 2x at one point. Now, that was before Workday crushed its earnings this week. It's up 15% today. ServiceNow took a slight breather earlier this month, but it's up on Workday sympathy today. Salesforce also beat earnings, and of course replaced Exxon Mobile on the DOW Industrials, can you imagine that? But let's bring it back to this digital transformation that you hear about. This is the big cliche from all the tech companies and especially software players. Now a lot of this DX, I sometimes call it, is related to old systems. It's especially true for the mega-caps like Oracle, SAP, PeopleSoft, JD Edwards, and even Microsoft. Take ERP and some of the mature products for example, like Oracle R12, or SAP R3 or R4. Many of these systems were put in place 15 years ago, and yeah, they're going to need to transform. They are burnt in. They were installed in what, 2005? It was before the iPhone, before social media, before machine learning and AI made its big comeback, and before cloud. These systems were built on the 1.0 of cloud. The businesses have changed but the software really hasn't. It happens every 10 to 15 years, companies have to upgrade or re-implement their systems, and optimize for the way business now runs, because they had to be more competitive and more agile. They can't do it on their old software. And God help you if you made a bunch of custom modifications. Good lucking tryin' to rip those out. And this is why pure play companies in the cloud like ServiceNow and Workday have done so well. They're best-of-breed and they're cloud, and it sets up this age-old battle that we always talk about, best-of-breed versus integrated suites. So let's bring in some of the other themes and feedback that we get from the community. Now we've definitely seen this schism play out between on-prem and cloud plays. And that's created some challenges for the legacy players. People working remotely has meant less data center, less on-prem action for the legacy companies. Now, they have gone out and acquired to get to the cloud and/or they've had to rearchitect their software like Oracle has done with Fusion. But think about something like Oracle Financials. Oracle is tryna migrate them to Fusion, or think about SAP R3, with R4, SAP pushing HANA. All this is going to cloud-based SaaS. So the companies that've been pure play SaaS are doing better, and I say quasi-modern on this slide because Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, even Coupa, NetSuite which is now Oracle, SuccessFactors which SAP purchased, et cetera, these are actually pretty old companies, the earlier part of the 2000s or in the case of Salesforce, 1999. And you're seeing some really different pricing models in the market. Things are moving quickly to an OPEX model. You have the legacy perpetual pricing, and it's giving way to subscriptions, and now we even see companies like Datadog and Snowflake with so-called consumption-based pricing models, priced as a true cloud. And we think that that's going to eventually spill into the core SaaS applications. Now one of the concerns that we've heard from the community is that some of the traditional players that were able to hide from COVID earlier this year might not have enough deferred revenue dry powder to continue to power through the pandemic, but so far the picture continues to look pretty strong for the software companies. We'll get into some of that. Now, finally, this is a premise that I talked to Sarbjeet about, the disruption perhaps comes from cloud and developer ecosystems. Y'know I remember John Furrier and I had a conversation awhile back with Jerry Chen from Greylock. It was on theCUBE, and it was kind of like, went like this. People were talking about whether AWS was going to enter the applications market, and the thesis here is no, or not in the near future. Rather, the disruptive play, and this is really Sarbjeet's premise, is to provide infrastructure for innovation, and a PaaS layer for differentiation, and developers will build modern cloud-native apps to compete with the SaaS players on top of this. This is intriguing to me, and is likely going to play out over the next decade, but it's going to take a while, because these SaaS players are, they're very large, and they continue to pour money into their platforms. Now let's talk about the shift from CAPEX to OPEX and bring in some ETR data. Of course, this was well in play pre-COVID, but the trend has been accelerating. This chart shows data from the August ETR survey, and it was asking people to express their split between CAPEX and OPEX spend, and as you can see, the trend is clear. Goes from 48% last year, 55% today, and moving to over 62% OPEX a year from now. It's no surprise, but I think it could happen even faster depending on the technical debt that organizations have to shed. And hence, the attractiveness again of the SaaS cloud players. So now let's visualize some of the major players in this space, and do some comparisons. Here we show one of our favorite views, and what we're doing here is we juxtapose net score on the vertical axis with market share on the horizontal plane. Remember, net score is a measure of spending momentum. Each quarter, ETR asks buyers, are you planning to spend more or less, and they essentially subtract the lesses from the mores to derive net score. Market share on the other hand is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset, and it's derived from the number of mentions in the sector divided by the total mentions in the survey, and you can see each metric in that embedded table that we put in there. So I said earlier, this was a pretty mature market and you can see that in the table. Eh, kind of middle-of-the-road net scores with pretty large shared ends, i.e. responses in the dataset, but a lot of red. There are some standouts, however, as you see in the upper right, namely, ServiceNow and Salesforce. These are two pretty remarkable companies. ServiceNow entered the market as a help desk or service management player, and has dramatically expanded its TAM, really to the point where they're aiming at $5 billion in revenue. Salesforce was the first in cloud CRM, and is pushing 20 billion in revenue. I've said many times, these companies are on a collision course, and I stand by that, as any of the next great software companies, and these are two, are going to compete with all the mega-caps, including Oracle, SAP, and Microsoft, and they'll bump into each other. Which brings us to those super-cap companies. You see Microsoft with Dynamics, they show up like they always do. I'm like a broken record on Microsoft. I mean they're everywhere in the survey data. Now Oracle and SAP, they've been extremely acquisitive over the years, and you can see some of their acquisitions on this chart. I've said many times in theCUBE that Larry Olsen used to denigrate his competitors for writing checks instead of code, but he saw the consolidation trend happening in the ERT, ERP space before anyone else did, and with the $10 billion PeopleSoft acquisition in 2005, set off a trend in enterprise software that did a few things. First, it solidified Oracle's position further up the stack. It also set Dave Duffield and Aneel Bhusri off to create a next-generation cloud software company, Workday, which you can see in the chart has a net score up there with ServiceNow, Salesforce, and Coupa, and it also led to Oracle Fusion Middleware, which is designed as an integration point for all these software components, and this is really important because Oracle is moving everything into its cloud. And you can see that its on-prem net score, which puts it deep into negative territory. Now SAP, take a look at them, they have much higher net scores than Oracle, and you can see it's acquired SaaS properties like Ariba, Concur, and SuccessFactors, which have decent momentum. But you know, SAP, and we've talked about this before, is not without its challenges. With SAP, HANA is the answer to all of its problems. The problem is that it's not necessarily the answer to all of SAP's customers' problems. Most of SAP's legacy customers run SAP on Oracle or other databases. HANA is used for the in-memory query workload, but most customers are going to continue to use other databases for their systems of record. So this adds complexity. But HANA is very good at the query piece. However, SAP never did what Oracle did with Fusion, which as you might recall, took more than a decade to get right. HANA is SAP's architectural attempt to unify the SAP portfolio and get, (laughs) really get off of Oracle, but it's many years away, and it's unclear when or if they'll ever get there. All right, let's move on. Here's a look at a similar set of companies, but I wanted to show you this view because it gives you a detailed look at ETR's net score approach, and it tells us a few things more. And remember, this is a survey of almost 1,200 technology buyers. That's the N, that's the respondent rate. So this chart shows the net score granularity for the enterprise players that we were just discussing. Let me explain this. Net score is actually more detailed than what I said before. It comprises responses in four categories. The lime green is new adoptions. The forest green is growth in spending of 6% or more, the gray is flat spend, the pink is a budget shrink of 6% or greater, and the red is retiring the platform. So what this tells us is that there's a big fat middle of stay the same. The lime green is pretty small, but you can see, NetSuite jumps out for new adoptions because they've been very aggressive going after smaller and mid-sized companies, and Coupa, the spend management specialist, shows reasonably strong new adoptions. Now ServiceNow is interesting to me. Not a ton of new adoptions. They've landed the ship and really penetrated larger organizations. And while new adoptions are not off the charts, look at the spending more categories, it's very very strong at 46%. And the other really positive thing for ServiceNow is there's very little red. This company is a beast. Now Salesforce similarly, not tons of new adoptions, but 40% spend more. For a company that size, that's pretty impressive. Workday similarly has a very strong spending profile. At the bottom of the chart, you see a fair amount of red, as we saw on the XY graph. But now, let's take another view of net score. Think of this as a zoom in, which takes those bar charts but shows it in a pie format for individual companies. So we're showing this here for ServiceNow, Workday, and Salesforce, and we've superimposed the net score for these three in green, so you can see ServiceNow at 48%, very good for a company headed toward five billion. Same with Workday, 40% for a company of similar size, and Salesforce has a comparable net score, and is significantly larger than those two revenue-wise. Now this is the same view, this next chart's the same view for SAP and Oracle, and you can see substantially lower than the momentum leaders in terms of net score. But these are much larger companies. SAP's about 33 billion, Oracle's closer to 40 billion. But Oracle especially has seen some headwinds from organizations spending less which drags its net score down. But you're not seeing a lot of replacement in Oracle's base because as I said at the top, these systems are fossilized and many are running on Oracle. And the vast majority of mission-critical workloads are especially running on Oracle. Now remember, this isn't a revenue-weighted view. Oracle charges a steep premium based on the number of cores, and it has a big maintenance stream. So while its net score is kind of sucky, its cashflow is not. All right, let's wrap it up here. We have a very large and mature market. But the semi-modern SaaS players like Salesforce and ServiceNow and Workday, they've gone well beyond escape velocity and solidified their positions as great software companies. Others are trying to follow that suit and compete with the biggest of the bigs, i.e. SAP and Oracle. Now I didn't talk much about Microsoft, but as always they show up prominently. They're huge and they're everywhere in this dataset. What I think is interesting is the competitive dynamics that we talked about earlier. These kind of newer SaaS leaders, they're disrupting Oracle and SAP, but they're also increasingly bumping into each other. You know, ServiceNow has HR for example, and they say that they don't compete with Workday, and that's true. But y'know, these two companies, they eye each other and they angle for account control. Same thing with Salesforce. It's that software mindset. The bigger a software company gets, the more they think they can own the world, because it's software, and if you're good at writing code and you see an opportunity that can add value for your customers, you tend to go after it. Now, we didn't talk much about M&A, but that's going to continue here, especially as these companies look for TAM expansion and opportunities to bring in new capabilities, particularly around data, analytics, machine learning, AI and the like, and don't forget industry specialization. You've seen Oracle pick up a number of industry plays and as digital transformation continues, you'll see more crossing of the industry streams because it's data. Now, the disruption isn't blatantly obvious in this market right now, other than SaaS clouds going after SAP and Oracle, and it's because these companies are deeply entrenched in their customer organizations and change is risky. But the cloud developer, the open source API trend, it could lead to disruptions, but I wouldn't expect that until the second half of this decade as cloud ecosystems really begin to evolve and take hold. Okay, well that's it for today. Remember, these Breaking Analysis episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com, so check that out, and please do comment on my LinkedIn posts. Don't forget, check out ETR.plus for all the survey action. Get in touch on Twitter, I'm @dvellante, or email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (thoughtful electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE everybody. This is Dave Vellante. We've been covering the transformation of Oracle Consulting and really its rebirth. And I'm here with Chris Fox, who's the Group Vice President for Enterprise Cloud Architects and Chief Technologist for the North America Tech Cloud at Oracle. Chris, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, glad to be here. >> So I love this title. I mean years ago there was no such thing as a Cloud Architect, certainly there were Chief Technologists but so you are really-- Those are your peeps, is that right? >> That's right. That's right. That's really, my team and I, that's all we do. So our focus is really helping our customers take this journey from when they were on premise to really transforming with cloud. And when we think about cloud, really for us, it's a combination. It's our hybrid cloud which happens to be on premise and then of course the true public cloud like most people are familiar with. So, very exciting journey and frankly I've seen just a lot of success for our customers. >> interesting that you hear conversations like, "Oh every company is a software company" which by the way we believe. Everybody's got a some kind of SaaS offering, but it really used to be the application, heads within organizations that had a lot of the power, still do, but of course you have cloud native developers etc. And now you have this new role of Cloud Architects, they've got to align, essentially have to provide infrastructure and capabilities so that you can be agile from a development standpoint. I wonder if you can talk about that dynamic of how the roles have evolved in the last several years. >> Yeah, you know it's very interesting now because as Oracle we spend a lot of our time with those applications owners. As a leader in SaaS right now, SaaS ERP, HCM. You just start walking through the list, they're transforming their organizations. They're trying to make their lives, much more efficient, better for their employees or customers etc. On the other side of the spectrum, we have the cloud native development teams and they're looking at better ways to deploy, develop applications, roll out new features at scale, roll out new pipelines. But Dave, what I think we're seeing at Oracle though, because we're so connected with SaaS and then we're also connected with the traditional applications that have run the business for years, the legacy applications that have been servicing us for 20 years and then the cloud native developers. So what my team and I are constantly focused on now is things like digital transformation and really wiring up all three of these across. So if we think of like a customer outcome, like I want to have a package delivered to me from a retailer, that actual process flow could touch a brand new cloud native site from e-commerce. It could touch essentially, maybe a traditional application that used to be on prem that's now on the cloud and then it might even use some new SaaS application maybe for maybe a procurement process or delivery vehicle and scheduling. So what my team does, we actually connect all three. So, what I always mention to my team and all of our customers, we have to be able to service all three of those constituents and really think about process flows. So I take the cloud native developer, we help them become efficient. We take the person who's been running that traditional application and we help them become more efficient. And then we have the SaaS applications which are now rolling out new features on a quarterly basis and the whole new delivery model. But the real key is connecting all three of these into a business process flow that makes the customer's life much more efficient. >> So what you're saying is that these Cloud Architects and the sort of modern day Chief Technologists, they're multi tool players. It's not just about cloud, it's about connecting that cloud to, whether the system's on prem or other clouds. Is that right? >> It is. You know and one thing that we're seeing too Dave, is that we know it's multi cloud. So it could be Oracle's cloud, hopefully it's always Oracle's cloud, but we don't expect that. So as architects, we certainly have to take a look at what is it that we're trying to optimize? What's the outcome we're looking for? And then be able to work across these teams, and I think what makes it probably most fun and exciting, on one day in one morning, let's say, you could be talking to the cloud native developer team. Talking about Kubernetes, CI/CD pipelines, all the great technologies that help us roll out applications and features faster. Then you'll go to a traditional, maybe Oracle E-Business suite job. This is something that's been running on prem maybe for 20 years, and it's really still servicing the business. And then you have another team that maybe is rolling out a SaaS application from Oracle. And literally all three teams are connected by a process flow. So the question is, how do we optimize all three on behalf of either the customer, the employee, the supplier? And that's really the job for the Oracle Cloud Architect. Which I think, really good, that's different than the other cloud because for the most part, we actually do offer SaaS, we offer platform, we offer infrastructure and we offer the hybrid cloud on prem. So it's a common conversation. How do we optimize all these? >> So I want to get into this cloud conversation a little bit. You guys are used to this term last mover advantage. I got to ask you about it. How is being last an advantage? But let me start there. >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, so frankly speaking I think that-- So Oracle has been developing, what's interesting is our SaaS applications for many, many, many years, and where we began this journey is looking at SaaS. And then we started with platform. Right after that we started saying how do we augment SaaS? This OCI for us or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure Gen 2 could be considered a last mover advantage. What does that mean? We join this cloud journey later than the others but because of our heritage, of the workloads we've been running, right? We've been running enterprise scale workloads for years, the cloud itself has been phenomenal, right? It's easier to use, pay for what you use, elastic etc. These are all phenomenal features, fell. And based on our enterprise heritage it wasn't delivering resilience at scale, even for like the traditional applications we've known on prem forever. People always say, "Chris we want to get out of the data center. "We're going zero data center." And I always say, "Well, how are you going to handle that back office stuff?" Right? The stuff that's really big, it's cranky, doesn't handle just, instances dying or things going away too easily. It needs predictable performance. It needs scale. It absolutely needs security and ultimately a lot of these applications truly have relied on an Oracle database. The Oracle database has it's own specific characteristics that it needs to run really well. So we actually looked at the cloud and we said, let's take the first generation clouds, which are doing great, but let's add the features that specifically, a lot of times, the Oracle workload needed in order to run very well and in a cost effective manner. So that's what we mean when we say, last mover advantage. We said, let's take the best of the clouds that are out there today. Let's look at the workloads that, frankly Oracle runs and has been running for years, what our customers needed and then let's build those features right into this next version of the cloud, we can service the enterprise. So our goal, honestly what's interesting is, even that first discussion we had about cloud native, and legacy applications, and also the new SaaS applications, we built a cloud that handles all three use cases, at scale resiliently in a very secure manner, and I don't know of any other cloud that's handling those three use cases, all in, we'll call it the same tendency for us at Oracle. >> Let's unpack that a little bit and get into, sort of, trying to understand the strategy and I want to frame it. So you were the last really to enter the cloud market, let's sort of agree on that. >> Chris: Yup. >> And you kind of built it from the ground up. And it's just too expensive now. The CapEx required to get into cloud is just astronomical. Now, even for a SaaS company, there's no sense. If you're a new SaaS company, you're going to run it in the cloud. Somebody else's cloud. There are some SaaS companies that of course run their own data centers but they're fewer and further between. But so, and I've also said that your advantage relative to the hyper scalers is that you've got this big SaaS estate and it somewhat insulates you, actually more than somewhat. Largely insulates you from the race to the bottom. On compute and storage, cost per bit kind of thing. But my question is, why was it was it important for Oracle, and is it important for Oracle and it's customers, that it had to participate in IaaS and PaaS and SaaS? Why not just the last two layers of that? What does that give you from a strategic advantage standpoint and what does that do for your customer? >> Yeah, great question. So the number one reason why we needed to have all three was that we have so many customers to today that are in a data center. They're running a lot of our workloads on premise and they absolutely are trying to find a better way to deliver a lower cost services to their customers. And, so, we couldn't just say let's just-- everyone needs to just become net new. Everyone just needs to ditch the old and go just to brand new alone. Too hard, too expensive at times. So we said, let's give us customers the ultimate amount of choice. So, let's even go back again to that developer conversation in SaaS. If you didn't have IaaS, we couldn't help customers achieve a zero data center strategy with their traditional application. We'll call it Peoplesoft, or JD Edwards or E-Business suite or even-- there's some massive applications that are running on the Oracle cloud right now that are custom applications built on the Oracle database. What they want is they said, "Give me the lowest ASP to get predictable performance IaaS" I'll run my app's tier on this. Number two, give me a platform service for database 'cause frankly, I don't really want to run your database, like, with all the manual effort, I want someone to automate, patching, scale up and down, and all these types of features like the pilot should have given us. And then number three, I do want SaaS over time. So we spend a lot of time with our customers, really saying, "how do I take this traditional application, run it on IaaS and PaaS?" And then number two, "let's modernize it at scale." Maybe I want to start peeling off functionality and running them as cloud native services right alongside, right? That's something again, that we're doing at scale, and other people are having a hard time running these traditional workloads on prem in the cloud. The second part is they say, "You know, I've got this legacy traditional ERP. Been servicing we well or maybe a supply chain system. Ultimately I want to get out of this. How do I get to SaaS?" And we say, "Okay, here's the way to do this. First, bring into the cloud, run it on IaaS and PaaS. And then selectively, I call it cloud slicing. Take a piece of functionality and put it into SaaS." For ERP, it might be something like start with GL, a new chart of accounts in ERP SaaS. And then slowly over a number of your journey as needed, adopt the next module. So this way, I mean, I'll just say this is the fun part of as an architect, our jobs, we're helping customers move to the cloud at scale, we're helping them do it at their rate, with whatever level of change they want. And when they're ready for SaaS, we're ready for them. And I would just say the other IaaS providers, here's the challenge we're seeing Dave, is that they're getting to the cloud, they're doing a little bit of modernization, but they want PaaS, they also want to ultimately get to SaaS, and frankly, those other clouds don't offer them. So they're kind of in this we're stuck on this lift and shift. But then we want to really move and modernize and go to SaaS. And I would say that's what Oracle is doing right now for enterprises. We're really helping them move these traditional workloads to the cloud IaaS and PaaS. And then number two, they're moving to SaaS when they're ready. And even when you get to SaaS, everyone says, "You know what, leave it as as vanilla as possible, but I want to make myself differentiated." In that case, again, IaaS and PaaS, coupled alongside a SaaS environment, you can build your specific differentiation. And then you leave the ERP pristine, so it can be upgraded constantly with no impact to your specific sidebar applications. So, I would say that the best clouds in the world, I mean, I think you're going to see a lot of the others are trying to, either SaaS providers trying to grow a PaaS, or maybe some of the IaaS players are trying to add SaaS. So, I think you're going to see this blending more and more because customers are asking for the flexibility For either or all three. But I will say that-- >> How can I get PaaS and SaaS-minus. >> Absolutely, I mean, what are you doing there? You're offering choice. There's not a question in my mind that Cisco is a huge customer of ours, they have a product that is one of their SaaS applications running Tetration on the Oracle Cloud. It actually doesn't run any Oracle. It's all cloud native applications. Natively built with a number of open source components. They run just IaaS. That's it, the Tetration product, and it runs fast. The Gen 2 cloud has a great architecture underneath it, flattened fast network. By far, for us, we feel like we really gotten into the guts of IaaS and made it run more efficiently. Other customers say, "I've got a huge Oracle footprint in the data center, help me get it out." So up to the cloud that they go, and they say I don't want just IaaS because that means I'm writing all the automation, like I have to manage all the patching. And this is where for us platform services really help because we give them the automation at scale, which allows their people to do other things, that may be more impactful for the business. >> I want to ask you about, the automation piece. And you guys have made the statement that your Gen 2 cloud is fundamentally different than how other clouds work, Gen 1 clouds. And the Gen 1 clouds which are evolving, the hyper scalars are evolving, but how is Oracle's Gen 2 cloud fundamentally different? >> Yeah. I think that one of the most basic elements of the cloud itself was that for us, we had to start with the security and the network. So if you imagine that those two components really, A, could dictate speed and performance, plus doing it in a secure fashion. The two things that you'll see an awful lot about for us, is that we've embedded not only security at every level. But we've even separated off what we call, every cloud, you have a number of compute instances and then you have storage, right? In the middle, you have a network. However, to become a cloud, and to offer the elastic scale and the multiple sharing of resources, you have to have something called a control plane. What we've done is we've actually extracted the control plane out into its own separate instance of a running machine. Other clouds actually have the control plane inside of there running compute cores. Now, what does that do? Well, the fact of the matter is, we assume that the control plane and the network should be completely separate from what you run on your cloud. So if you run a virtual machine, or if you run a bare metal instance, there's no Oracle software running on it. We actually don't trust customers, and we actually tell the customers don't trust us, either. So by separating out the control plane, and all the code that runs that environment off of the running machine, you get more cores meaning like you have-- There's no Oracle tax for running this environment. It's a separate conmputer for each one, the control plane. Number two, it's more secure. We actually don't have any running code on that machine, if you had a bare metal instance. So therefore, there's no way for one machine in the cloud to infect another machine if the control plane was compromised. The second part of the network, the guys who have been building this cloud, Don Johnson, a lot of the guys came from other clouds before and they said, "yYou know the one thing we have to do is make a we call it Flattened Fast Clause Network that really is never oversubscribed." So you'll constantly see and people always ask me same question, "Dave, why is the performance faster if its the same VM shape? "Like I don't understand why it's going faster, like high performance computing." And the reason again a lot of times is the network itself is that it's just not oversubscribed. It's constantly flowing all the data, there's no such thing as congestion on the network, which can happen. The last part, we actually added 52 terabytes of local storage to every one of those compute nodes. So therefore, there's a possibility you don't even have to traverse the network to do some really serious work on the local machine. So you add these together, the idea is make the network incredibly fast, separate out the control plane and run the software and security layer separate from the entire node where all the customers work is being done. Number three, give the customers more compute, by obviously having us offload it to a separate machine. And the last thing is put local storage and everything is what's called NVMe storage. Whether it's local or remote, everything's NVMe, though the IOPS we get are really off the charts. And again, it shows up in our benchmarks. >> Yeah, so you're getting, atomic access to memory. But in your control plane, you describe that control plane that's running. Sorry to geek out everybody. But I'm kind of curious, you know. You got me started, Chris. So that's control-- >> Yeah, that's good. >> the Oracle cloud or runs. Where's it live? >> It's essentially separated from the compute node. We actually have it in between, there's a compute node that all the work is done from the customer, could be on like a Kubernetes container or VM, whatever it might be. The control plane literally is separate. And it lives right next to the actual compute node the customer is using. So it's actually embedded on a SmartNIC, it's a completely different cores. It's a different chipset, different memory structure, everything. And it does two things. It helps us control what happens up in the customers compute nodes in VMs. And it also helps us virtualize the network down as well. So it literally, the control plane is separate and distinct. It's essentially a couple SmartNICS. >> And then how does Autonomous fit into this whole architecture? I'm speaking by the way for that description, I mean, it's nuanced, but it's important. I'm sure you having this conversation with a lot of cloud architects and chief technologists, they want to know this stuff, and they want to know how it works. And then, obviously, we'll talk about what the business impact is. But talk about Autonomous and where that fit. >> Yeah, so as Larry says that there are two products that really dictate the future of Oracle and our success with our customers. Number one is ERP-SaaS. The second one is Autonomous Database. So the Autonomous Database, what we've done is really taken a look at all the runtime operations of an Oracle database. So tuning, patching, securing all these different features, and what we've done is taken the best of the Oracle database, the best of something called Exadata which we run on the cloud, which really helps a lot of our customers. And then we've wrapped it with a set of automation and security tools to help it really manage itself, tune itself, patch itself, scale up and down, independent between compute and storage. So, why that's important though, is that really our goal is to help people run the Oracle database as they have for years but with far less effort, and then even not only far less effort, hopefully, a machine plus man, out of the equation we always talk about is man plus machine is greater than man alone. So being assisted by artificial intelligence and machine learning to perform those database operations, we should provide a better service to our customers with far less costs. >> Yeah, the greatest chess player in the world is a combination of man and machine, you know that? >> You know what? It makes sense. It makes sense because, there's a number of things that we can do as humans that are just too difficult to program. And then there are other things where machines are just phenomenal, right? I mean, there's no-- Think of Google Maps, you ask it wherever you want to go. And it'll tell you in a fraction of a second, not only the best route, but based on traffic from maybe the last couple of years. right now, we don't have autonomous cars, right, that are allowed to at least drive fully autonomous yet, it's coming. But in the meantime, a human could really work through a lot of different scenarios it was hard to find a way to do that in autonomous driving. So I do believe that it's going to be a great combination. Our hope and goal is that the people who have been running Oracle databases, how can we help them do it with far less effort and maybe spend more time on what the data can do for the organization, right? Improve customer experience, etc. Versus maybe like, how do I spin up a table? One of our customers is a huge consumer. They said, "our goal is how do we reduce the time to first table?" Meaning someone in the business just came up with an idea? How do I reduce the time to first table. For some of our customers, it can take months. I mean, if you were going to put in a new server, find a place in the data center, stand up a database, make the security controls, right and etc. With the autonomous database, I could spin one up right here, for us and, and we could start using it and it would be secure, which is utmost and paramount. It would scale up and down, meaning like just based on workload, as I load data into it, it would tune itself, it would help us with the idea of running more efficiently, which means less cores, which means also less cost. And then the constant security patches that may come up because of different threats or new features. It would do that potentially on its own if you allow it. Obviously some people want to watch you know what exactly it's going to do first. Do regression testing. But it's an exciting product because I've been working with the Oracle database for about 20 years now. And to see it run in this manner, it's just phenomenal. And I think that's the thing, a lot of the database teams have seen. Pretty amazing work. >> So I love this conversation. It's hardcore computer science, architecture, engineering. But now let's end with by up leveling this. We've been talking, a lot about Oracle Consulting. So let's talk about the business impact. So you go into customers, you talk to the cloud architects, the chief technologist, you pass that test. Now you got to deliver the business impact. Where does Oracle consulting fit with regard to that, and maybe you could talk about sort of where you guys want to take this thing. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so, the cloud is great set of technologies, but where Oracle consulting is really helping us deliver is in the outcome. One of the things I think that's been fantastic working with the Oracle consulting team is that cloud is new. For a lot of customers who've been running these environments for a number of years, there's always some fear and a little bit of trepidation saying, "How do I learn this new cloud?" I mean, the workloads, we're talking about deeper, like tier zero, tier one, tier two, and all the way up to Dev and Test and DR, Oracle Consulting does really, a couple of things in particular, number one, they start with the end in mind. And number two, that they start to do is they really help implement these systems. And, there's a lot of different assurances that we have that we're going to get it done on time, and better be under budget, 'cause ultimately, again, that's something that's really paramount for us. And then the third part of it a lot of it a lot of times is run books, right? We actually don't want to just live at our customers environments. We want to help them understand how to run this new system. So training and change management. A lot of times Oracle Consulting is helping with run books. We usually will, after doing it the first time, we'll sit back and let the customer do it the next few times, and essentially help them through the process. And our goal at that point is to leave, only if the customer wants us to but ultimately, our goal is to implement it, get it to go live on time, and then help the customer learn this journey to the cloud. And without them, frankly, I think these systems are sometimes too complex and difficult to do on your own, maybe the first time especially because like I say, they're closing the books, they might be running your entire supply chain. They run your entire HR system or whatever they might be. Too important to leave to chance. So they really help us with helping the customer become live and become very competent and skilled, because they can do it themselves. >> But Chris, we've covered the gamut. We're talking about, architecture, went to NVMe. We're talking about the business impact, all of your automation, run books, loved it. Loved the conversation, but to leave it right there but thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your insights, great stuff. >> Absolutely, thanks Dave, and thank you for having me on. >> All right, you're welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We are covering the Oracle North America Consulting transformation and its rebirth in this digital event. Keep it right there. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier cohost, founder Silicon Angle media, we are here in our Palo Alto studios for cube conversation with your Juergen  Linder, who's the senior vice president of Oracle SaaS. You're getting great. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. Appreciate, uh, the time senior vice president of ERP, SaaS, you handling all the business aspects of the Oracle cloud is correct. And you'll lots happening. What's the big, the big story right now? >> Well, here at OpenWorld, it's, it's a little bit of a kid in a candy to your point, I do think it's fantastic that we can store. I mean, showcase our innovation capacity. What we have really done and you're going to see most of those announcements are around how we pervasively infuse emerging technology into our product lines. So not just a sidecar concept, but productizing out use cases where customers can reap an immediate business benefit as of day one. So allow me maybe to plow through some of those. There is a lot of it, um, what's happening and one of the big ones is certainly around cloud ERP. If it's a huge investment for us, we'd like to think it's the most strategic SaaS investment you will ever do. From that perspective. We're very committed to make sure that the emerging technology is applied for business impact. What I mean with that is take examples such as, um, intelligent payments. So imagine you have a cash surplus all of a sudden, which is a great position to be in, but two, how do you allocate it to strategically cultivate supplier relationships based off in the moment data based on machine learning suggestions. Think about the change that we're seeing out there in terms of business models. I mean product as a service is a completely different model in which our companies need to operate. So this entire motion of shipping transactionally into going into a service provider model is huge for a lot of companies and oftentimes they have multiple business models to cater to. So big announcement, this open world is subscription management, which is a unique offering where we have really plowed together the combined strengths of our customer experience cloud to handle seamlessly the customer facing interactions. So sales, service, marketing type of pieces. But teamed up with our ERP offering to really have all of the billing, the renewal cycles, the um, revenue recognition seamlessly solved in one offering. So big announcement for us. >> So on the subscription management is that for the ERP years at Oracle Cross, all oracle portfolio products are specifically ERP. >> It's both actually, it's, it spans the customer experience piece, but it's also natively embedded into the Oracle ERP cloud to have it a seamless experience because we don't think that you can solve subscription management in isolation. Oftentimes you feel vendors who does it on the customer experience side, but then you'd still need to have the backend features to make sure that you can deliver on the promise that you do understand the customer intimately, that you could do effective up cross sell and handle the renewal cycles. Constantly tap into the customer sentiment to see if they're happy and just see them grow. So we'd like to think it's really a combined effort between what we have as customer experience and the ERP side >> I mean, this brings up a great point because I think you're hitting on the major trend that's happening around Oracle open world, certainly in the industry right now that is integrating a lot of different functions. I mean ERP, they want knows ERP was lifted the days that's really critical software and it powers the business. It's not going anywhere. What people are concerned about, how do I extend the capability of the data that I have? Yes, and cross connected so that it's seamless, so I want to just go a little slow on the subscriber management thing. So what you're saying is you upgraded subscriber management so that the customer can manage their piece of their business without mangling or changing or tweaking any of are taking me through that. I was at. How are they rolled that out? What's the use case of that >> I think this is important to hit on the key point which is data mean. specifically? They give an example. What Oracle always has been synonymous with is owning, managing and securing the world's data. We'd like to live on that heritage for a while because we think it's fundamentally differentiating. If you want to bring those emerging technologies to life for outcomes, um, since we're covering all lines of businesses in the cloud and are ready to go today, it brings us into a very unique position to really stitch together data points very elegantly across a unified data platform, right? Where data travel seamlessly. Because if you think about a subscription business, there's so many aspects that goes into that. Think about conducting, collecting sensory data based on Iot. >> A lot of databases are out there and you have multiple databases you're hitting. >> Oh absolutely. So we want to make sure that obviously any data that we're collecting about the usage of a given product allows us to find tune the business model for subscription. If we have the customer or if the company made a decision to go into a subscription model, it's huge from a revenue recognition perspective, how do you report that out? It has to do with how do you service the customer constantly predict and anticipate the very next move four up and cross selling type of mechanism. So it's a big movement. >> Customer intimacy used to be a cx problem, now it's an integrated data problem and it's interesting because, you know when I broke into the business when I was graduated from college, the word data processing was a department when you guys were in the database business mean data processing now is a core competency that's not limited to one siloed system or one abstract system like an ERP or cx. It's managed to everything. So you have to do data processing because that's the value. So if, if that's the case and more data is coming to the marketplace, you need machine learning, you need to have the tools. So I gotta ask you Oracle Open world, you guys are doing some announcements around Ai. What's the impact to ai particular or using or managing whether it's symbolic systems, which is a little bit different in ai reasoning. Is is a thing processing and reasoning around the data now you need ai for that. So what are you guys announcing around ERP, oracle cloud and ai? >> So it's fundamentally that, to your point, I had the pleasure of implementing ERP system at customer side on the sis side. I had problems or challenges in my business career to bring them to life on the software development side, but fundamentals have stayed the same. You need to have data consistency and as a complete view of the business. Now, to your point, I'd like to think that machine learning and emerging technologies at large provide a new canvas on how you can create and look at every single business process as we know it so you see us talk about it because I'm all about intelligent process automation in the ERP context. What that means is if you take a typical company, about 85 percent is spent on keeping the lights on, closing the books, doing all of the in hyphened, mundane but necessary stuff, and 15 to 20 percent is typically dedicated towards innovation of new business model. Serving customers with new business model or just being the change agent that typically the finance function wants to be. I mean, there's a reason, for example, why Kraft Heinz had a cfo or has still has a CSR, was 29 years old. They're not hired necessarily for the seniority they hired for the change ability. >> The culture change is both business culture and there's also tech culture that culture cloud, native agile data at the center of the value proposition. Now culturals is about expectations I I need it relevant. I mean it's a commitment problem to needed. I need it fast. solve too as well on both business skills gap and also technical. >> I mean to your  point, I mean kid in a candy store is like the the best way I can describe it. I think every single business process and in the nineties we had this big theme of business process reengineering. You know that I'd like it comes back on steroids right now because you can simply look at every single business process once again and see where the human element and the machine or a robotic element can simply provide superior outcomes. Think about use cases of detecting fraudulent spend more easily like machines are simply better at that. We have to admit that if we can liberate the human potential at large and tap into the ingenuity by liberating them from the mundane and shifted you towards value at, that's huge. So our commitment of infusing machine learning and ai constantly in every single business process and learning from your decision like John, if you have the same workflow and you approved it 99 times, the system should start taking a hint. It doesn't mean hard coding and rewiring the work flow. The system automatically should learn from your behavior. So this is what we talk about, intelligent process automation. It also extends into what we call intelligent process performance management where our entERPrise performance management cloud is very sophisticated and analytical capabilities, but now it's taking it to the next level of prediction, learning, anticipating, constantly and suggesting actionable results. So a lot of things and chatbots for expenses is the entire communication with the system. It's just branded in a way where I say, when is the last time you had an intelligent conversation with your ERP system? A lot of people would say never. >> Well, I think people would love to get more value out of the data. And certainly the work that ERP systems have done as foundational mechanisms or plumbing or infrastructure and software is critical. Data's in there, right? So, yes. But the interesting topic that's becoming apparent and Oracle, you've, you guys lived this and you know at, uh, your other career at sap client server had a great growth when heterogeneous network started to appear, correct? So heterogeneous is a word that's not just a customer problem, it's an oracle opportunity as well because you have to be heterogeneous in an mov yourself. >> Absolutely. >> Then that's the data is the bridge of your internal system. So it's not just here's your oracle, between all of that. So now you have heterogenaity around all go buy some European, deploy it in the customer's heterogeneous environment. You gotta have a heterogeneous integration than Oracle into a cloud environment for the customer, makes it more complex, but the data becomes the key asset. >> Data is the key asset. And this is why we took decisive steps about a decade ago to really rewrite from scratch for the cloud. So we're really not trying to get away with hosting or legacy into the cloud because I think it's a fundamentally flawed strategy, right? So we also learned from what I call typical SaaS, one point old patterns where certain vendors tackled one business problem in isolation, but then it's upon the customer once again to stitch it painfully together with all of the risk it has like security risks, um, data silos that you so desperately trying to run away from comeback on steroids in the age of multicloud. Right? So it's oftentimes what we're seeing is that tactical cloud adoption, our customer and prospect conversations give way to more strategic longevity type of SaaSs consideration. And this is where we think we have a great story to tell by having everything in the cloud. Every line of business re architected for the cloud, but then of course the entire stack So of course we want to make sure that everything that comes out of Oracle depth to support it. works best stitched together. But by all means, it's really that we acknowledged that customers have heterogeneous environments that were open to connect, extend any type of starting point a customer might have. >> So one of the things I've been impressed with Oracle and the previous announcements is your affinity towards some of the emerging tech you guys aren't afraid to, to run at a new environment. And Larry Ellis was classical old with Larry. We'll wait until he sees clear And because you got a big business, you've got zillions of customers, visibility that he'll run hard at it and it's been fun to watch. uh, and you're modernizing and real time. But the big change that's on the market is the blockchain. You guys got some announcements happening around here at Oracle Open? Correct. And you made an announcement earlier what new things are coming out with blockchain because blockchain actually is a database model. It's a little bit decentralized, but it has great use cases, low hanging use case, independent of all the hype and uncertainty around cryptocurrency. But certainly blockchain is an enabling. Technology will impact your world. What new things you announcing here? >> For me, that's likely the most fundamentally disruptive technology heading our way. To your point, still a little bit at the infancy compared to other emerging technologies, but the profoundness of change with this new trust fabric is just massive for every single business process as we know it. Um, so when we discussed with customers, it's really that we try to give our customers a headstart for immediate business impact, meaning we're shipping applications, productized use cases. So the announcements this week are really around intelligent track and trace, making sure that any given point in time, you know exactly where in the supply chain you're product is, what are the handover points all documented seamlessly. You see an announcement around what we call the intelligent cold chain, big topic for some pharmaceutical companies, for example, or food and beverage, right? To have refrigerated products where you need to prove that they never surpassed the temperature threshold. For example, in the supply chain document that via supplied via block chain, we have, um, what we call warranty and usage as a use case. Just simplifying the settlements, the claim processes for any type of things here. So we have multiple more that are in the labs right now. Take an hcm use case, for example, where everyone of us had some educational experience, right? And we want to make sure that the hiring process becomes as if, uh, did you go to the school, you said you went, you know, your supply chain, you know, your journey in life as a, as a value chain. I mean the first universities are actually posting the certificates, unblocked chain so that you have this immutable record and the entire vetting of credentials in the hiring process, which is so cost intensive time intensive could be shaved off seeming as >> One of the things I'm personally passionate about and then release our video businesses that one of the big problems that's going to becoming great fast as deep face tampering with video. One of the things that we're thinking about it, how to put our videos on the blockchain to look at whether it's been tampered or not. Absolutely. Because you know, you can take this video. Could you say something that because this big, this legit problem was verified. So again, this is a verification about it and people want to know, did the produce come from that? Certain lawyers production, certainly manufacturing operations is Qa issues. This is real. These are real world examples. This is not like some pie in the sky hyped up. Tulip craze >> Funny you mentioned that we actually have an innovation panel on Tuesday afternoon where we have, for example, one of the largest food manufacturers in the world building on our blockchain cloud services. Those types of use cases and just amazing what we're seeing in terms of the impact emerging technologies can have and quite frankly business impact we're going to see out of that. >> I think I personally think, and I'd love to get your reaction to this because it's something that we talk a lot on the cube allowed in is good feedback on is that you're going to have to explain yourself and have verification because there's a lot of black box processes that have to be an unexposed because people want to know the transparency of how things move through the system. Whether it's, whether it's fruit, whether it's videos, whether it's someone's resume or credentials, reputation. These are new ways that needs to be explained by algorithms. Yes, so now the black box is going to be opened up. This is an opportunity. It's a threat to a lot of people, so you're on. Do you agree with that idea that there'll be soon things will be explained and be able to be inspected eventually. >> Transparency is huge and as to your point, I don't think you can hide a lot of things going forward anymore, so everything becomes more transparent, but with enabling technology such as blockchain for example, they also become immutable into dispute to your ability to to, to, to, to alter the information flow becomes less so. It's both. I'm very enlightening in terms of having transparency, speeding up business processes and to your point also understanding the origin where something originated. We have a lot lineage, for example, as another blockchain applicant. Live lineage, you mean like production lots, production loads, for example in provenance, right? To really understand the genealogy example that understand the genealogy as to where, for example, certain parts of your supply chain really come from. Do they come from countries for example, where you shouldn't be doing business So it's all those types of things where you can always prove like maybe the with? Right. >> Chinese put a chip on a board and puts it in Amazon Apple Data Center. That's a supply chain concern. But I totally wouldn't you love to know where that motherboard is. I mean, this is, these are real world examples. If it went through to press the last couple of weeks, it definitely is. It's a real. Aws and apple have vehemently denied, strenuously objected to the claim. I refuted. I would, I checked it out, I think with the Bloomberg story wrong, but we know that there is hacking going But again, this is an example of, on, no doubt. as things are moving around a lot, whether their workloads are manufacturing, this is a data problem. >> It all comes down to data. I mean data is the ultimate weapon in this age where they were in right now, um, and the company that can help you best to have as much data meaning first party generated data, but then also complement that with, for example, Oracle data cloud, right? Really Privacy compliant. Third Party data points to have this contextual demographic, Geo geolocation type of context to really delight customer experience and compliment your own insight is massive and we'd like to think we have a great story to tell not only being to manage this data but also to Securitas data because data security is massive. I mean I have been a personal victim of the equifax hack, so since then I take it very much seriously. >> I mean not take credit card fraud on that. >> You had been to be honest, I mean like impact was less than I'd expected it, but it's still scary to see as to how fast your privacy can be compromised. Right? So you definitely want to make sure that be hacked and some advice we you want to be hacked. Just tell people you own a lot of big coin. You'll be hacking in a heartbeat. But this is the culture. Let's get back down to this core issue because Larry Ellison said a couple open oracle liberals will go, that security should be always on. Yes. And this is a fundamental concern. So you know, as you guys look at bringing this customer experience together, bringing the unity of the data together. Um, I mean there's a lot of oracle products out there. You got, you got ERP and hcm, you've got cx data, cloud, all these things are out there, right? So bottom line, that's SaaS cloud for Oracle. What is the, what's the mission, and simplify it for us. What if I'm a customer? I got a lot of Oracle, I have some oracle, maybe I want more or less or I don't And what's the value proposition for oracle cloud's SaaS solutions? know. Bottom line. >> In a nutshell, it's about future proofing the business of our customers. I'd like to think that cloud is in hyphened the inevitable destination for us to serve the customers and our prospect base at large to help them just be ahead of the curve in either driving innovation, taking advantage of data points to turn it into a competitive advantage and having this quick ability on a quarterly basis to surface as innovation, but don't leave the customer alone with standalone innovation platforms. Sidecar concepts by making sure we have a holistic architectural approach to surface in the context of the business when you need it and making sure. So for us it's really the fundamental way how we can better serve our customer base and our prospect base and we'd like to think that the decisiveness of the architecture we have chosen about a decade ago brings us a lot of advantages right now where customers are realizing tactical cloud adoption was trust. One, LOB is short lift potentially, so they're looking at holistic cloud suites and we have everything in the cloud plus we have the architectural depth to really surface and actually tackle any business problem right now, not as a promise and a couple of years and then also keeping a roadmap, making some extensibility. >> Alright. Personal question. You're again. What are you personally excited about right now? Obviously you've seen a lot of ways of innovation with sap. Now you're at Oracle, you've seen the client server wave, you're now on the cloud wave. What are you personally excited about this next modern infrastructure and software environment as it starts to evolve, that big wave is coming? What's most exciting for you? >> For me, it's really the possibility to re think about every single business process as we know it. It's so fundamental, those technologies, machine learning, constantly learning from your decision that the experience at large, how you interact with a system. We're so conditioned in consumer life that you ask a question, you get this instant gratification of a response. This is exactly the type of experience we're going to see an entERPrise systems as well. So I do think the demographics, the requirements into an ERP system, an entERPrise system at large have changed and we're excited about the ability to serve that up now on a quarterly basis with speed and also customer responds of course, right? Because SaaS for us as a fantastic opportunity to get instant feedback, we can do ab testing, we can immediately see as the, what's used, what's not used. Right? So for us as a vendor, I think we have to be on our toes because I mean there's no hiding in SaaS, right? I mean either you deliver or your don't. Yeah, it's incident. Um, so there's a lag time of shipping info, innovation, safeguarding our customers, and I think we have a great story to tell for customers who have invested with us already in the past with on premise investments, how we can shepherd them into the cloud era at the most predictable type of timeframe caused everything. You mentioned one word which was key unity, which is one of the announcement I forgot to tell customer experience, unity in the past. I think what we have seen on the customer experience side is oftentimes that vendors have taken an approach where you had sales service, marketing, commerce, oftentimes siloed cx. Unity is really our fundamental commitment to making sure that the data management of every single dynamic touchpoints we have with a customer is constantly live up to. But do your point. I think oracle has a fantastic set of cards to deal with customers to help them in any starting point of their journey right now. Not In the future, no re architecture needed. We can take that right out to them. >> I think Oracle is a great opportunity with the data play. I'll see databases, not a foreign concept, the word database, um, data processing, real time. I mean, I think the integration, you guys have a good opportunity and great to great to see you and thanks for spending a QP, appreciate anything, keep conversations. You're lending there. Who's the senior vice president? Oracle SaaS cloud here in the studio, Palo Alto. A lot going on around Oracle. OpenWorld happening. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Live from Washington D.C. It's theCUBE. Covering Inforum D.C. 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> And welcome back to Washington D.C. We're in the Washington Convention Center here for Inforum 2018, continuing the coverage here on theCUBE, I'm John Walls with Dave Vellante, we're joined now by Anne Benedict, who is the S.V.P. of human resources at Infor. Anne good afternoon to you. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> You bet, thanks for being here. Now, 17,000 employees, so obviously you've got a lot of responsibility there. You're not only an Infor Executive, but you wear the hat of being an Infor client, (laughs) as well. Tell us about that, and how that works out, and, I guess, how you can test drive a lot of different services on your own before it goes out to the market. >> I like to joke that I feel like I have the best HR leadership role in the business, or in the world perhaps, because I get to not only lead a great company full of great people, 17,000 employees around the world, I'm so proud of them, but then I also get to be a customer of one of the greatest products in the HCM world that there is, and I have a direct line to the product managers, to the developers, to the consultants who can really help us to use our product to it's fullest advantage internally for our selves. So, it's like a toy box that every H.R. executive dreams of, and it's right there at my door step to test, to use, to innovate with them. They're always open to our ideas, our feedback internally. We're often a beta customer for the features, and functionality that are coming out to our customers, so it's a great position to be in. >> So what about the relationship, because there is a great give and take. Obviously, because you are a tremendous resource on the development side. What is that exchange like, and how does that work in terms of what's working, what's not, what you think others would want instead, or what they'd like to tweak a little bit. How does that work? >> So, you know, we're trying to sort of straddle a balance between using the product as it's intended to be designed for the breadth of our customers, no matter what industry they're in. We're obviously in a technology industry, but we have a lot of health care customers, government customers, services customers who have their own particular needs. So, we like to experiment with the technology the way it's designed for other industries, but then also I can make adjustments for use for our own company as a services company, as a technology company, and a good example of that for example is I'm working very closely with product management right now to help them design the next iteration of what our talent management suite will look like. So, we have a design concept for how we want to give performance feedback, for example, internally at Infor, and we're sharing that design the product management team to help them create the next version of the product that will meet the design requirements that we've set out for ourselves, and that I think a lot of other companies are moving towards. It's a modern approach to talent management, and we're working very closely hand in hand with product management to make sure they're designing something that we, we're co-designing it with them really. So, what I'm expecting is for us to have a really great next iteration of that product that is very modern, and up to date on what science is telling us about performance feedback. >> So, you're a pioneer, in a way, but you probably don't want to mess with with core H.R., that's table stakes. Talent management is something that, frankly, not a lot of companies do well. So, you may be more receptive to experimentation there. Is that a fair assertion? >> Yeah, I would say that's true, and also my background is, I grew up in H.R. with quite a breadth of experiences, but my depth of expertise has always been on the talent management and leadership development side. So, that's been sort of where I've been wanting to play with the product, and give my point of view on where I think it should evolve. It's just my particular strength that I bring, I think, to this role and to the product as well. >> How do you see the role of the Senior H.R. Executive evolving? How has it changed in the last several years? How is, maybe, digital transformation, this whole big data, the data movement? How does that factor into that role, and your vision of where that goes? >> Yeah, I think companies are looking for a different type of H.R. Executive than they have in the past. And I was fortunate that this wasn't by design. It was very serendipitous, but my career path led me, I think, in the exact right direction. So, I started my first 10 years of my career as a consultant at Mercer doing H.R. consulting. So, I was consulting the companies how to make, how to create the best H.R. department possible, how to create H.R. strategy, how to operationalize that. And, it was that consulting mindset that I've taken with me throughout my career. After consulting I moved internally to various companies, and that skill set of just being able to identify a problem, come up with a solution, and measure an implementation, I've taken with me in my role. So, I think companies are looking for H.R. executives who bring that sort of mind set to the role. And, I think that's what I've been able to do at Infor. And then, I think also when I was a consultant I was also advising customers and clients on technology, and how to use technology for H.R., so that's why I'm so thrilled to have this role, because it's the best of both worlds where I get to play with the technology, and also be a cutting edge H.R. leader. >> Alright so-- >> Hopefully. >> How do you asses the Infor HCM capabilities? Come on, give us the good, the bad, what's on the to do list. You know, give us the rundown. >> Yeah, I think it's a phenomenal product, and I'm not just saying that. >> Okay, what makes it phenomenal? >> When I walked in the door a year and nine months ago we were just about to go live with the multi-tenant cloud product. We were one of the first to do that, and we did it in over 65 countries with 17,000 employees, and since then we have subsequently rolled out more functionality, benefits enrollment, absence management, compensation planning, LMS, and each time we learn a little bit more. I can't underestimate the importance of getting the process right before you get the technology in, and the change management that goes around it. If I would say, I would give us a B it might have been around those areas, but the product itself is really it has the perfect balance of coming out of the box with some functionality that you can use right away that's best practice process. >> So you get value right off the bat. >> Yeah, and not a lot of configuration required, easy to get in. We implemented it with that broad scope in a very, very short amount of time, which is almost impossible with our competitors, so. So, I think for that it's fantastic, and then for the specific needs that we've had it's been very easy to build that in as well, so it has best of both worlds I would say. >> So, we saw some pretty cool demos yesterday around talent science, and it struck me as an audience member. There were all kinds of different kinds of attributes of, you know, ambition and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but you know the one that wasn't on there was like performer, but it struck me that these attributes lead to performance. I guess that's the basic philosophy, but I wanted to test that with you. Just give me the bottom line. >> Yeah. >> But it really is more complicated than that, isn't it? >> It is, yeah, and that's one of the most exciting things about H.R. right now too, I think. And this comes back to H.R. Executive of the future is, I come from an IO Psychology background where data, we used to have to do experiments on subjects with, and collecting data was always the hardest part to studying work, and studying personalities, studying behavior, and now we have all this data available to us that we've never had before. And, talent science is a perfect example of how data is really empowering our decisions. And, to answer your question about how it is predicting performance; A particular attribute doesn't necessarily lead to performance in any role. So, in one role, ambition, really high ambition is actually not a factor for success. In another role, it is. So, it really is, there is no right personality profile that can predict success in any role. It's very role specific. And what talent science is able to do is really find the science behind what is the specific role that will lead to success, and what are the attributes that will lead to non-success, also in a role. And, that's such a powerful thing. What we've found with talent science is that depending on the role we can reduce turnover by 20 up to 70% by choosing people who fit a role profile versus those who don't. >> It's interesting it's like, you know, those books, like the seven attributes or-- >> Or Covey-- >> Of highly successful people, but essentially you're codifying that by role. And, that's true. It doesn't just work for any role. Sales person may be different than an engineer, may be different than a an operations person et cetera. >> So, this is really fascinating, because you have the human science, right, we're all imperfect, we make crazy decisions, sometimes irrational, we act wild, or predictably, whatever it is. And, now you're taking data science, and overlaying with that, so you're trying to come up with some kind of predictable markers, or whatever, for imperfect beings in a way. How's all that merging, I mean, how is technology being the glue in that process? >> Yeah, well I think there's no such thing as right and wrong, or perfect and imperfect. You know, I could get into a leadership speil, but any strength that either of you might have, if you use that to an extreme it becomes a weakness, actually. And, like I used in the example of ambition, high ambition in certain roles, may not be a factor toward success. Where as other roles it might be. Whatever particular DNA, behavioral DNA, that you bring to a role as an individual, it's incumbent upon us as a company to figure out what is the right role for the personality that you bring, and the behavior, and the strengths that you have. And, that's what we're really able to do with talent science, which is, so, if you apply for a role where you don't match the profile I may be able to propose to you, hey, you have really high ambition that's not right for this role, but it may be right for this other role. Have you ever considered that? And, that way we can really, you know, we talk about human potential here, at Inforum. That's the real tool, real tangible way that we can really find the human potential in every single person, no matter what their profile looks like, or strengths, or weaknesses, or faults, as you say. Whatever-- >> Whatever it is, right? >> Whatever they come with we can find the right fit. >> Does technology, generally, and say artificial intelligence or machine intelligence, specifically, can it moderate or adjudicate human bias? Or, does it actually reinforce it? >> Yeah, that's a very good question, and obviously very pertinent to today. I think, a couple of things. So, the assessment I'm speaking of, we would never rely on the machine to make a decision. So, it's telling you, as a manager, here are some of the gaps that a particular individual has towards the role that you are planning to hire them for, but we suggest that you ask these interview questions, and make a decision for yourself. So, you really can't replace that human intervention in the process, that human judgment, their sense from an interview, but it really helps them hone the interview in on the things that they really should focus on. Figuring out, are we comfortable with those gaps? Does the person realize they have those gaps? And, really, for both the candidate and the manager to make the right decision. So, in the assessment it's always, we never rely on the machine to make a decision. But, it is incumbent on us to make sure that as we're designing these tools, as we're designing the technology behind them that we have as much diversity in the people who are designing them as possible. To make sure they're being designed in a way that doesn't have bias built into them. And, that's why it's so important for us to have diversity in technology. Why we're doing SB code. Why we believe in bringing up people from all backgrounds to participate in technology, 'cause it's so important to have that diversity, as we're building this stuff. >> Can't take the humans out of the equation, yet. >> There's still some gut check, right, there's still some intuition that has to come into play here. >> Yeah, absolutely, and that's one of the attributes of humans that we, machines can't replace yet. So, that ability to empathize, the ability to show all the emotional skills, we know machines can't do that today, maybe someday they will. But, today they can't, so humans will bring that. But, I really think that the power comes in the combination of AI, and machines, and humans. And, that's what we're talking about here around human potential. It's the power of the combination of the two. And, I think we will see that that combination will be required for a very long time, before machines take over the world (laughs) >> I always tell the story, John and I interviewed Garry Kasparov. >> That was great. >> The great chess champion. >> Chess master. >> When he lost to the IBM supercomputer, instead of giving up he said, "I'm going to beat the supercomputer", so he took machines plus humans to beat the supercomputer, so to this day the greatest chess player in the world is a machine and a supercomputer. So, that is a great example of augmentation. Now, it probably doesn't work so well for autonomous vehicles, but-- (all laughing) >> Well now, thanks for being with us. Thanks for sharing the story. We appreciate that, the time. And, if you see our application come down the pike-- >> Okay (laughs) >> Flag us where we're deficient, if you would, please. >> You'll be welcome, you're welcome. >> Excellent (laughs) >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you, Anne Benedict, thanks for being with us. We'll be back with more here on theCUBE. We're live in the nation's capitol, Washington D.C. >> That was awesome. >> Thank you. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE! Covering Inforum D.C. 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Good afternoon, and welcome back to the Walter Washington Convention Center, we're at Inforum 2018, here live on theCUBE, John Walls with Dave Vellante, and it's a pleasure now to welcome the CEO of Infor, Charles Phillips with us. Charles, good to see ya! >> Good to see you guys again, another year. It's great, it's great. >> Yeah, I tell ya, you are a man of demand aren't you? I mean, tell me about the week so far for you, how it's gone, and just your overall thoughts about the show? >> Yeah, it's been a fun Inforum for 2018 here. Great attendance, and a lot of energy level, and the common feedback we get is you guys just keep innovating and bringing new things, this is great, and that's why they come, they want to see what we're working on and kind of dream the art of the possible. We know what you, what we think you get a couple years ago, but if we don't have someone pushing us and painting a picture of what we could be doing, and we just think we might be missing it, so we want to hear it first hand. So that's what the conference is about, and hopefully they got that. >> Well, certainly thematically, human potential, you talk about that, you see that on the keynote stage, that's been a very consistent theme with our guests here, we've heard that a lot, you hear it down on the show floor. Talk about the theme if you would, a little bit, in terms of it's development, where that came from, and in how you think that's being expressed here this week. >> Well, we're one of the few companies that build mission critical operational systems, be it manufacturing or hospital operations, but we're also in HCM in a big way. And so we were talking to kind of both sides of the house, for some applications you're talking to the line of business manager, but for HCM you're talking to the CHRO, and rarely were those two people talking, and we saw obvious synergies. Don't you want to know how your people are doing, how to allocate people, and how they're performing, how they're changing the outcomes on a manufacturing floor or in a hospital, and a lot of HR directors weren't thinking like that because they think of HR, and they have their own world, they go to HR conferences and that's it. And the manufacturing guys are the same thing, and so we're trying to bring these two worlds together and say "Actually, you're in the same business, it's the same goals, and you actually could help each other a lot." And so by focusing on putting the employee at the center of all these applications and mapping all these operational processes to HR data, it's a different way of thinking about the role of HR. They can actually help drive the business, not just be an administrative function, and so it's resonating with a lot of the CHROs we met with, 'cause they want a seat at the table, they want to be more strategic, and this is a way for them to do that and at the same time the operational people want to know how their people are doing, want to develop talent, and want to know what are the tools out there I could be doing differently, and how am I doing, and which employees are working the best So, I think we can bring both sides together. >> So I first met Infor through AWS, at re:Invent, Pam Murphy came on, and we were like Infor? Back then it was like 2012, 2013 was kind of Infor who? And then we were invited to New Orleans, and then started to learn more about your micro-vertical strategy and a little bit about the platform, it was somewhat opaque to me. And now, fast forward last year and this year it's really starting to come in to view. The OS, the platform vision, the Birst acquisition, and of course Coleman, and I'm a sucker for platform plays especially when there's real R&D behind it that's actually having a business impact. So I wonder if you could talk about that piece of the strategy, I love the stack, was that sort of always your vision and now you're getting aggressive in it, did it sort of come together serendipitously, how'd we get here? >> Having our own stack and a platform was always the vision, but it's a lot harder to do than it sounds like, and it takes time. And so, when we arrived almost eight years ago, there were different applications, all had their own separate stacks and would say "This is not going to work." So, we need, just to be able to scale, to be able to serve multiple industries with different products, we can't have every development organization building their stack as well. So we set about taking that away from the development groups we're going to do this as a shared service, but it takes time, and as we build it you will adopt components of it. So what's changed is we've built out the entire stack, so, starting with ION, with integration, then we added document management, workflow, analytics, now AI and a lot of other services, Mongoose, platform as a service, on and on and on, in collaboration, those things took time, they're all on a single platform, federated security, single siloed across it all, and now it makes the developers job who's developing apps so much simpler. So they have Infor OS for the immediate platform, for cloud services they have AWS, I don't have to worry about any of those things anymore, just go and develop industry functionality. So, it's come together nicely, but the fact that we had the time to do it and the money to do it, and we weren't public, and we told our investors "This is the only way this is going to scale, this is the future, and it'll pay out later, you just got to trust us." And now that we've gotten there, they're seeing the synergy and go "Okay, now we see why you did that." >> So, Michael Dell's been on theCUBE many times, he used to talk about the 90 day shot clock, we obviously see what he's done in terms of transforming; but I want to talk about your business a little bit, because you've had that patient capital, I mean you're a quasi-public company in the sense that you do report so we can see the numbers on the income statement, but the income statement doesn't really tell the whole story It's about three billion in revenue, several hundred billion dollars on the balance sheet, but if you look at the SaaS component of it it looks rather small, maybe about 25% of the business, but from a booking standpoint I'm sure it's much, much larger than that. So how should we interpret the income statement in terms of the momentum in your business, where is all the action? >> So as a percentage of our sales, it's the highest of any of our competitors, so, about 70% of our new sales are on SaaS, we have about a $700 million SaaS business, so it's growing. There's nothing we can do about the maintenance piece of it, if it's related to perpetual, so if you take that out, it's a big percentage of our business. And over time the maintenance will turn into SaaS, so that's one of our big opportunities to look at that maintenance space and say "Move those over to cloud customers." and that's usually a financially lucrative thing for us to do, because we do even more for them, because they usually add on four or five other products when they move, they replace these third party products and so we get a bigger suite of products if they decide to move to the cloud. So that's part of the strategy, that's what UpgradeX is, let's move you from on-premise, so that maintenance revenue will turn into SaaS revenue, but bigger SaaS revenue over time. >> So let me make sure I understand, so it's not the classic case where you see a lot of software companies that are going from a perpetual model to a ratable model, you're goin' from a maintenance model which is ratable to a ratable model which is SaaS, but there's cohorts sales which increase the top line, is that correct? >> Exactly. So usually, because of what we do, we're doing something mission critical. So if you're going to take that, then you should do ACM financials, all the other things around it. So why would I move to core and leave the edge on-premise? So, almost by definition we have to do the whole suite. So when we do that it expands the deal, 'cause on-premise we may have been one vendor with 30 other ones existing, but the whole reason they want to get out of all of that is to move to the cloud and simplify. So we can't take all that with us, so we have to have the full suites, we've built that now. So now we can move them, but, it expands the size of the deal because we're replacing all these other products. >> Okay, and then some of the stats, just correct me if I don't get this right. Your SaaS business grown 50% faster than Oracle's, growing at a rate, I'd say 2X SAP's and a rate comparable to Workday, are those correct figures? >> Those are correct, and profitable. >> Oh, and profitable. >> Throw that in. (all laugh) >> Right, so okay. And then last year Koch Industries invested, so you kind of recap the company, you've made a big deal about that. One of the things that we've noted is you're seeing a tailwind there in terms of guys like Accenture and Capgemini, we've asked them "Do you guys service Koch Industries?" they said "Yep!" they helped us see the opportunity, and they said "Look, look for something substantive, we're not going to try to force you to do something, but we want you to take a look." So that's been helpful. Talk about that and maybe other things Koch has brought to the table? >> It's a, the relationship with the integrators is evolving, it probably was not a plus for us in the first four, five years. More recent years we've won enough deals where they had to say "Okay, we can't keep losin' these deals." And where they wanted to get engaged. Koch helped, because they had relationships and they wanted to run that business, that's why they're implementing our products globally, and so, they're a large customer for all of these guys, and one of the largest for Deloitte for instance, but what's really more-- that helped, but it was more the, what was happening in the market, the fact that we're in a Liberty Steel and replace SAP, or that we're in a Travis Perkins interview with SAP and Microsoft, so, if you're on the wrong side of those deals enough times your manager starts to ask you what's goin' on, and you got all these people on the bench here, okay, we train them for Infor if they're winning in that region, or in that industry. So, we just had to earn our way into it, our initial strategy was not one that, at least on the surface, looked like it was integrator-friendly because we were trying to take all those mods they like to do and put 'em in the product, and that's the whole thesis, let's the take the vertical industry features and let's put it in there once, I don't want everybody customizing my apps, we do that. And so now they've had to move up, okay we can do other things, configuration, changed management, there's AI, there's other things you can do, but you're not going to do that. So now that they've accepted that, there's a basis for us to work together, and, it just had to take time to get there. >> What can you tell us about where you want to go with this? I mean you've presided over public companies before, you know that business well, you were a rockstar analyst, is there an advantage to being a public company, is that something that you eventually want to do? >> I would say there are pluses and minuses, our board is evaluating that, that's going to be their call. The upside is, it would solve probably our biggest challenge which is brand recognition, almost instantly, because would be a top 10 tech IPO. It makes it a little easier to hire people because they can see public currency, they can value more quickly, and it gives you some acquisition currency; so those are the positives. But then you're on the 90 day cycle, and we're kind of on that anyway, 'cause we report publicly and we have publicly traded bonds. So for us it's, in some sense we have the worst of all worlds, right? We have the discipline of being a public company, and the scrutiny, without the capital, (laughs) and the branding, so. I think that's what everybody's evaluating. Every bank on Wall Street's visiting us telling us to go now, the window's great, you have the numbers. >> Oh, of course. (Dave and John laugh) >> And so, so we could do it, I just don't know what their decision's going to be. The advantages to being private as well, you have a little more flexibility obviously, and, we don't need the capital, we have plenty of capital coming from Koch and others who want to invest. >> Well, the flip side of that too, is you get to write your own narrative, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean, we're talkin' about the nuances of the income statement, the Street is obviously right now hooked on growth heroin, and if you got the transition in the base it doesn't become a tailwind, so, no rush from that standpoint. I want to pivot to the theme of this event, which is the human potential. My understanding is you sort of were instrumental in coming up with that. HCM this year got a big play on stage, where's that come from? >> Yeah, just as I talk to CEOs who are struggling to find talent, like I mentioned on stage 6.7 million jobs that are unfulfilled. It's not like we don't have people here, we have people here with their own skills, so, you're not going to fill those jobs any other way, we're not doing immigration to any degree and scaling more, that's been shut down. We have an aging population with the baby boomers, so the most logical thing that you would do is train people who are already here who want to work. And, let's take people who have jobs that they probably aren't thrilled about, and give them different skills so they can fill these 6.7 million jobs. So to do that, you have to make these applications easier to use, and I felt like we're probably in the best position to do it because we actually know what they do for a living, 'cause we wrote all those last features in those industries, we understand what they do. And if you're just doin' HR replication or financials, you actually have no idea what they do. So, we had to learn those jobs to automate those jobs, so we can find ways to use our HCM applications to better train people, professional development, coaching, take all these HR skills, and put them as part of the applications in the context of while you're working. >> We had Anne Benedict on just a little bit ago talking about really a test case that you can be for yourself. So how are you putting these things to practice yourself, and how are you working out maybe some kinks before you take them out to somebody else? And so, you can leverage your own success for your own success, and also learn from mistakes too I would think. >> We do. So we have this program called Infor at Infor, where everything we do, we want it to be on an Infor product, which was not the case when we arrived. Like a lot of companies, a mish mash of different things, and so we've implemented not only HR Financials of course, Birst, but the big innovation has really been talent science, that every employee we hire has to take that test, and all the executives have taken it as well. And what we've discovered is, is that, when people hire and go against the talent science recommendation, 68% of the time they end up being wrong. So it's better at judging people than people are sometimes, and you can't use it exclusively, but it'll tell you these are the things you should look into, some questions you might want to ask, here's how they rate on certain skillsets, they're very well meshed for this job, they look like they'd see their best performance in this area, but ask these questions. And so people don't know how to interview and how to think about this, and so, having a guide to go into an interview is actually pretty helpful. We hire much better people now by using that. >> So it's like StrengthsFinder in a way? >> No, it's different from that, this is AI, it's kind of Moneyball for business people. >> Well you're talking about that today, almost there. >> Yeah so it's 39 personality attributes, behavioral attributes we call them, so, empathy, resistance to authority, do you have the ambition or not, and depending on the job, you think all those things are good, depends on the job, so. For some jobs, it's actually better to have low ambition because, a lot of our customers who have low wage, fast food service jobs, people who have ambition are going to leave in four months, right? They're not going to stay, so, okay we're not going to be here long, at least know that going in, and know who wants to get promoted, and other people are fine with it. And so it depends on the mix of skills, just like I said, 39 attributes, and for that job role, you tune it to the people who like that job, they look like this. And, we've also found that it's 60% more diverse when you hire using science, because you don't know that when you're looking at the data, what they look like. >> It must've been super interesting getting those reports. You took it, obviously right? >> Yeah I took it. >> How'd you do? (laughs) >> Uhhh, nobody really likes their profile. (all laugh) >> I was going to say, I imagine I would be really defensive about this, oh I don't know. >> This can't be right! >> That is not me! I am not like that! (all laughing) >> Every person on our executive team said the same thing so. That's what it's for is to, you have certain perceptions even about yourself, and it calls it out, right? And there's no gaming the system because the questions have no right or wrong answer, it just puts you in scenarios that you answer what would you do, how do you feel about this? You're not clear what they're trying to get at, and you only have 27 minutes or 22 minutes to do the test. >> So you can't game it? >> You can't game it. >> Data doesn't lie! >> And we built the science, we know when someones trying to game it, they're taking to long on multiples, and changing their answers too much, so it's-- And we've now, I think we've tested some 200 million people over time, over years, so we have 20 years of data about people. >> That's, I mean, sounds unique, certainly unique of being infused into enterprise software, I've not seen anything like this from another enterprise software company. Can you confirm that, or? >> Yeah, so, we're the only ones that do this at scale, there's a few startups trying to do it, but they're trying to do it all facial recognition which is, we think pretty ridiculous, we're trying to get away from physical attributes not use that. So there's a company out there doing that, depending on your facial movements, but this is, we're eliciting responses about your personality in response to situations that we give you, and have a bunch of scientists that crunch the data and they basically shape it to the job role. And they test your best performance, and you get a DNA profile for your best performance for that job role, and then, that's what you're matching, and it's highly accurate. So we had a company on the Las Vegas Strip use it, because they have to hire in volume a lot, and essentially what they wanted to do was get better blackjack dealers. You need somebody that's good at math, good under pressure, not too emotive, don't give away anything; and so we did that, fine tuned the test, they call us back nine months later and said "We need you to change the test." We said "We did exactly what you wanted, what happened?" He said well, the winnings went up 30%, but everybody's leaving the hotel in 24 hours 'cause they lost all their money, so we don't need them to be that good. (all laugh) >> Dial it down a little bit. >> Which we did. And so that's part of the service is we fine tune it, you tell us what your goals are, and we'll tune to that. >> That's a great story. The other surprise for me this week has been the emphasis on robotic process automation, it's a space that we've kina looked at. And a lot of people are scared about software robots replacing humans, but if you talk to people who are using RPA, they love it. It's taking away these mundane tasks, I didn't realize that you guys had such capabilities there? >> Yeah, so we built that as part of a Coleman RPA platform, and not only can we automate and use RPA for ourselves, but we've built a whole development environment for our customers to build their own, 'cause we can't think of every process that they might want to automate, and we gave that platform to our partners as well, so. We don't want them doing database schema work anymore, and they used to get paid for that, there's other things you can do up the stack in AI, here's what we want you to focus on. So we had that meeting on Monday with the partners, and they all agreed that's what we're going to do. But there's tons of mundane things that people shouldn't be spending time on, and they can be much more productive, it makes them more loyal to the company, they're enjoying their job more, and they're thinking and innovating more. So I don't see it as replacing people, as making people better. And giving that engagement that I talked about during the keynote, they're engaged now, because they can do things that are more value adding now. >> So, back to New Orleans next year? That's the first Inforum that theCUBE was ever at was in N'Orleans, and, jazz, you like jazz, obviously, right? >> I like jazz, I met with the mayor when I was down there, Mitch Landrieu at the time, and he became a customer after that meeting, so the city of New Orleans runs on Infor software, it's another reason to go there; so thank you. >> You've get--nice. >> Yeah, thank you Mitch, so that worked well. And so as a thank you we're going back down there, they're a big customer now, and it's always fun, you know what I mean, you know. >> That's great. >> Just, before you go, you mention, I watched in the keynote this morning, Brooks Koepka. >> Yes. So you're working with him. I do a little bit of work on the golf side as well, so I was just intrigued because, he's not the, well he's not Tiger, right? >> Yeah. >> U.S. Open Champion, twice over. What was the attraction to him, and then can you play in the golf world a little bit, and with those brands, and is that an entry into that world? >> Well, we always like to bet on the scrappy guy, the next up and coming generation guy, and that's kind of our brand that's what we are, the Brooklyn Nets, someone who's not quite there yet, but they're moving up, that's kind of our scrappiness, that's why we like the whole Brooklyn image as well. And we started talkin' to him, like I said, before he won the U.S. Open, because he was ranking pretty high, moving up, but wasn't well known. A quite guy, very personable when you meet him, we thought he'd be good in front of clients, let's bet on his career, and we're going to work with him; and literally three weeks later he wins the U.S. Open, we go "Okay." (all laugh) >> Good grab! >> We'll take it! (laughs) So, we didn't even think it'd happen that quickly, and now he's a rockstar so. We were planning on hosting a CX event with him, and, we're not sure how many people are going to come, but when that happened, now, everybody RSVP'd right away of course. So now it's doing exactly what we wanted. >> Do you play golf? >> I don't play golf, I just started playing, 'cause we were doing these golf tournaments with customers over the last year, but I haven't had enough time to get out there yet. >> I'll bet Brooks would give you a lesson or two. (laughs) >> Yeah, he, a lot of people want to lesson from him. >> Charles thank you >> Alright, thank you guys, >> for the time, great show. >> Good to see ya again. See ya in New Orleans. >> Thank you, yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Alright guys, see ya. >> Wonderful week here in Washington, D.C. Back with more live on theCUBE here from D.C. right after this. (bubbly music)

>> Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE! Covering Inforum D.C. 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Welcome back to the Walter Washington Convention Center, we're in Washington D.C., the nation's capital of course, as we continue our coverage here on theCUBE of Inforum 2018. Along with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls, it's a pleasure welcoming Dhiraj Shah in with us, the CEO of Avaap. Dhiraj, thanks for joining us this afternoon! >> Good to see you again! >> Absolutely, big pleasure, it was great talking to you for the last two years, and a pleasure to be back here. >> Yeah, I'm always curious, I mean Avaap, I've read a little bit, I mean the five letters of Sanskrit language, what do the five letters represent? I mean how did you come up with the title? >> You know, that's the first question that gets asked, the two questions I get. >> Sorry to be cliche, but I'm just really curious! >> No, no, the two questions is, "Why did you start Avaap?" and the other question is, "What is Avaap?" and it's actually five elements in Sanskrit and each of them are tied to a cultural value that we hold at Avaap, so, Agni, which is fire stands for passion, 'cause I'm a deep believer of being very passionate in what you do; if you're passionate, you'll follow through and it won't feel like work. Water is tied to innovation, sky is tied to goals, we're very ambitious. We've been able to have a rocket ship type of growth, so far, and we continue to aspire to do more. We have Earth, which is tied to eco conscience, cause we like to be globally eco conscious and genuine in what we're doing. And then air, which is transparency. I think we live in a world that, you really don't need a lot of bureaucracy, and the more there is transparency, the better there is organizational development. >> Gotcha, well thank you, I appreciate the rundown. So services and solutions, and the relationship with Infor, walk us through that a little bit, of why you're here. >> Absolutely, so, we are Infor's most decorated partner, so I'd like to say that, because we just came off the stage getting four awards with Infor this year. >> Congratulations! Fantastic. >> Yeah, thank you very much. They were overall partner of the year five years in a row. Our partnership with Infor, started five years ago, before that it was with Lawson. So when Charles Phillips and the team came on board, I was in the back of the room, and I heard Charles kind of lay out his vision in 2012. And he said "I want to do two things, I want to make software that is industry specific." And this is coming at a time where everything was one size fits all. And he said "We want to reinvent the software that's driven for future technologies. Cloud, mobile, big data." Right? So I had a great opportunity, and we made a momentous decision of parking all our eggs in the Infor basket, and just doing Infor. And that served us well of going from 20, at that point we were like 25 employees, to having over 450 today. >> Wow! And we've talked about this in the past is you got in early, and now you're seeing some of the big guys come in, so you have to stay ahead of them. How are you doing that, and why are you succeeding? >> You know it's not necessarily always being ahead, so that actually, that's a question I got, is that Deloitte's here, Accenture's here, Capgemini is here, do you feel threatened? We actually don't, because it's a validation of what's occurring in this eco system with the big system integrators coming in. And with a rising tide, all boats rise. So we've actually partnered with some of these large SIs, because there's roles that they play and we let them do a lot of business transformation, change management, program management, and we do what we do best, which is Infor knowledge, and consulting services. >> The deep, deep Infor, that's kind of, it's ironic, right? Infor's specialty is the last mile, micro-industry capabilities, and that's really kind of how you specialize is deep Infor expertise. >> Exactly, yeah. >> So give us an example of, you go through an engagement, you got one of the big SIs and they're going to do their big global thing, business process change, they really are global in scale, et cetera. Where do you come in? where does Infor sort of, where does their micro services, or micro-function leave off, and where do you pick up? >> So yeah, I'll give you a real world example, in fact, I was just with this customer earlier this morning, Christus Health, they are one of the largest health systems in the country, 60 hospitals, close to 60 thousand employees. They're looking for transformation on their ERP, full suite, HCM, Supply Chain, Financial. Went through a large system selection process the usual competitive race with Oracle, Workday, Infor, kind of being in that race. It was down selected to Infor and Oracle as the two lenders that had full capabilities that they were looking for. And then once they made their decision on Infor as their vendor of choice, they did a services RFP, which we partnered with Deloitte, because the scope of that was, as I said earlier, around business transformation services, that we didn't have in our bag. And Deloitte does not have the 20 years of expertise, the deep Infor knowledge around the solutions of Infor, that we have within our healthcare team. So, we bridged and built an alliance, that, today is starting the project journey in Infor, Deloitte, Avaap, Christus, to make that project a success. >> In the capabilities that you, that they were looking for, that you said that Infor and Oracle had, were what? the coverage of the functionality across the suites, was it the cloud capabilities? What's the high level of that? >> So the one thing that I will tell you, is the consumer, in this case the healthcare market, if we talk about them, is getting extremely knowledgeable, so the way it's starting is around cloud. So gone are the days, I see a lot of commercials out there about real cloud, artificial cloud, private cloud, public cloud, there's a lot of education already around single tenant, and multi-tenant, and they understand. So it starts with the cloud platform, that is the software provider on a stable, secure cloud platform, and are the applications hosted on a multi-tenant, as opposed to individually hosted for each customer. And then they break it down into the different buckets of the applications, within HCM, within Supply Chain, within Financials to see what not a product features. So gone are the days of looking at feature functionality, but their business processes, and best practices. And that's really, in my opinion, where Infor really came ahead at Christus. >> In the multi-tenant verses hosted, I mean, Vodka would say, "Well why would a customer care?" I'm presuming the customer cares because when you do a software release, it's just seamless, right? Verses okay, we got to freeze the code, and do an upgrade, it's more disruptive. Is that why? >> Yes, that's definitely a large portion because over the period of time, every time there is a manufactured change on the software side, development chain, you're adding code that impacts a customer to have to take their system down, and then bring it back up, and here it's done without the customer even finding out, so it's a huge advantage. The second advantage is a cost, which in today's world not as much, because hardware's become very cheap. But it's still conquered hardware that's sitting on the premise, as opposed to individually putting it out there, as opposed to having one system that's scalable. And then your third is security, on multi-tenant capable software, it's more secure than your single tenant capability. >> And Avaap brings that to the table. So it's not, I mean Infor has the micro-vertical function, so yours is what? Onboarding, implementation, training, those kinds of things? >> Yeah, so it starts with helping them align, and educate on the system selection on what it does. So we have a offering called Align and Define that allows customers to prepare for the cloud, to take steps today, and educate them on what needs to be done. Once they do that, then it's going through the implementation process, and post-implementation is optimization. So on the optimization side, Avaap also has capabilities on our EHR side. So one of the big challenge in healthcare, is a wall that exists between the ERP and the EHR, you have your Oracle and Infor on the ERP side, and then you have Epic and Cerner on the EHR, and there's a wall there, one doesn't talk to the other. And the systems need to be really integrated, to be able to drive efficiency and cost benefits for that, so that's one of the things that we're heavily invested in. >> Well healthcare is your biggest business, right? >> Right. >> So what's goin on these days? You obviously, last sort of wave was Obamacare, Affordable Care Act, there's some uncertainty around that, certainly meaningful use is still a big deal for a lot of healthcare providers, EMR is still you know, a big deal. What are the hot trends, what are the drivers, and how are you guys responding? >> ERP. ERP is the hottest trend right now in the healthcare market, so there's a lot of fatigue with healthcare having gone through meaningful use over the last decade of spending hundreds of millions of dollars, of putting in the EHR platforms. So that fatigue, and that focus on EHR has led to no real advancement on the ERP side. And that's why we're in a midst of what I think, is one of the largest wave in the healthcare industry are on ERP platforms that we're seeing, there were 55 system selections done, just in the last 12 months. My personal view is that over the next three to five years, we're going to see 80% of healthcare systems swap or upgrade their ERP platforms. >> Wow. Okay, please, go ahead. >> So swap-- what's... the fundamental of that decision? >> So there are a lot of legacy providers, so the market is going to get consolidated, so we, I know we always talk about Oracle, Infor, Workday, but there is a lot of other providers, there's, if you count mid market and up, there's 5,000 health systems out there that's customer base. >> Very fragmented, isn't it? >> Very fragmented. >> Okay, alright. >> So there's McKesson as an example. McKesson had a big ERP platform, officially said that they are stopping development on it. And that's going to create a void that needs to be filled. There's Meditech on the lower end of the spectrum that serves these regional, individual health system that exist in rural areas. So those systems are, need to be upgraded, because the rural systems of most of anywhere else that have connectivity issues need the cloud platforms to kind of go through. >> Yeah I mean a lot of these, a lot of these healthcare platforms were, they were literally, they were born in the mini-computer era it was a mantra, let's buy a VAX, and we'll become a valuated re-seller, and healthcare was such a huge opportunity, and so under technologized, not a word but, and then over the years, these systems just kept getting updated, now they're just left with this fossilized mess, right? >> Absolutely >> And the cloud comes in and that's really driving a lot of the change. >> Yeah, and Infor couldn't be positioning itself in a better time, to make the change. I think Charles was very visionary, and kind of reinventing the old Lawson platform, and making it multi-tenant, cloud enabled, for the healthcare industry, specifically written. So the last mile functionality that we talk about in supply chain that Infor has is unmatched, in our opinion, in the field today. >> Who does that last mile functionality, if it's not embedded in the applications like Infor, is it the SI, is it some other internal software developer? >> So, the software developers as Infor is, trying to build that as much in the software as they can. But there's always extensions, which is where tools from the Infor OS, as an example come in, to allow to build the extensions that allow us to then have that capability. >> You do that work, is that right? >> We do that work, absolutely. >> Okay, and then, how do you deal with Infor in terms of just not getting in the way of their road map? Soma's got his ERD pipeline, and you don't want to just do something that he's going to do in week, a month or a year. How do you communicate with those guys, and how do you find the white space? And then does it somehow get back into the platform and become advantageous for others? >> So Soma has spent 4 billion dollars on product, that's the budget his board gave. I can't go in front of my board, ask for that kind of budget, then I'd be out. >> Well you could. >> I could, yeah >> It could be some good laughs >> Yeah, so we are realistic in what we can do. So the extensions we build are very specific, and not necessarily product centric. We have a good relationship with the product development team, that allows us to see their road map and make sure. So an example I'll give you is test automation. So we've built an automation framework using an industry recognized platform, and customized it for the ERP, for healthcare. So, regression testing is one of the largest pin point, manual, laborious, takes a business uses away. So this tool, called Avaap Test Automation, which has been in the field, we have, close to 100 customers using it, allows us to automate that entire regression testing sidle, and is an accelerator that condenses the entire implementation life cycle. >> You've got, we've talked a lot about healthcare, you have another interest inside of your business, with a little Beatles connection. So fill us in on that a little bit. >> Yeah, so two of the four awards we got, one, and I definitely want to talk on both of them, because those are important parts of our business, One is retail, we did get retail partner of the year award, and Stella McCartney, is our project that we're actively working on in UK. She, Stella McCartney, is Paul McCartney's daughter, and has built a very reputable shoe company, that's a brand highly sought after, and we're working on modernizing their ERP applications, using cloud suite fashion, which has the underlying technology base on M3 platform. >> She loves you, yeah, yeah, right? >> That's cool, that is cool! >> Absolutely! >> That's great, well Dhiraj, thanks for being here, thanks for sharing the story! >> Absolutely, thank you very much. >> Congratulations on all the progress! >> It's always good to be here! >> It is full speed ahead. Good for you. Dhiraj Shah from Avaap >> Thank you! >> Back with more on theCUBE. We're at in Informen, Informer rather, (laughs) I did it again, didn't I? >> Inforum! >> Inforum! >> I'll step in when you need me! (laughing) >> 2018, D.C. Did it again. >> Excellent! (bubbly music)

>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE, covering Inforum DC 2018, brought to you by Infor. >> Well, good morning. Welcome back here on theCUBE. We are live in Washington DC, at Inforum 2018. You can tell, Infor's just over the shoulder here. We're on top of the show floor, looking down, and a lot of buzz, a lot of activity out there. Good to be a part of that excitement here in DC. I'm John Walls, along with Dave Vellante, and we're joined by, he said, "Just call me Soma." Soma Somasundaram, who's the CTO at Infor. Soma, good job on the keynote stage this morning. Thanks for joining, appreciate that. >> Yeah, and yesterday. >> Yup, yup, thanks. >> So, talk about a couple of new products, one launched, one in beta. Why don't you go ahead and tell our audience a little bit about that, about what you're bringing to the marketplace now? >> Yeah, so, you know, we have, you know, as I mentioned in today's keynote, we're all about product innovation, and we're engineers. Charles is an engineer, I'm an engineer, and we're constantly driving new innovation. So, some of the innovation, there's fundamentally, we want to build what I would call a shared services platform that all of our cloud suites can utilize. There's no need for each of the applications to go reinvent the wheel to build a middleware, or a data lake, or an API layer, so we built a shared services platform, which is what we called Infor OS. As part of Infor OS, we continued to release new things. You heard today, we released something called Infor Go. As the name might suggest, the idea is that you as an employee in one of the customer organizations, you want to have, easily go to the app store, download something called Infor Go, it automatically is configured for your role. It gives you, if let's say you're a salesperson, it gives you access to CRM data, to curate your pipeline, it gives you access to employee data, because you're an employee of the organization, gives you ability to file expense reports, because you're a traveler. You get the idea. So, in a role, you don't want to be dealing with 20 different apps. It's just one thing. You just go in, one sign on, you get access to everything you need. That's one announcement we made. That's on the technology side. And on the functional side, you know, we launched a new CRM this morning, and the idea there again is that, we're in the CRM business not to build a horizontal CRM. Our idea is, you build, anything you do must be industry-specific, right? When you are selling and servicing an excavator, and you are a dealer of moving equipment, you want to know what kind of configuration installed, what kind of accessories I can sell to this farmer, what kind of terrain they're operating on. That is industry-specific. So to us, that is important. That's what we're doing with CRM. We built it on obviously our own platform, technology platform, multi-tenant, running in the cloud, but the main differentiation is industry, right? So that's something we announced. We've been on building a next generation HCM suite, which we talked about a lot yesterday. The final piece of that is payroll, which is important. So that payroll, which just went beta this morning. It's all built on the exact same platform, with Infor OS, multi-tenant, and it's highly extensible, so that completes our HCM suite on a unified platform. Those were the announcements we made today. >> So I wanted to talk a little bit about the platform. So last year, after Inforum 17, I wrote a blog post, and I put up the strategy and technology stack, and I kind of missed the OS underneath. So we'll come back and maybe course-correct that. But one of the problems with enterprise software, especially suites, is there are a lot of cul-de-sacs. You go down a road, and then you hit a dead end, and then you have to come all the way back, and if you want some other function, you have to go down and come all the way back, and it's a very frustrating user experience. So, I'm inferring that what you guys have done is try to address that and other problems with a platform approach. So a platform, in my view, beats products. So maybe talk about platform and what that means to you guys, and then I would love to get into the sort of conceptual and actual stack. >> Yeah, so, it is what should be common sense, in my opinion, that if you buy a HCM suite from a provider of software, you buy ERP from that same provider, you buy travel and expense application from the same provider. You would think that they all have the same user experience, and are integrated out of the box, they all seamlessly work together, with single sign-on. That would be a normal expectation as a customer, I would think, but unfortunately, the market's not going that way, right? Everybody's got their own, even within one company, you have multiple products, they don't work together well. Our idea is that if you buy an industry cloud suite, you must feel like it came from Infor, it all should have one single user experience, it all should work together as an integrated suite, it should all be sharing data for analytics, and so on and so forth. So that is the whole idea behind building this Infor OS. So, Infor OS has got several services underneath, starting with, you know, user experience, which is developing a hook and loop. So we have all of the controls, whether it's a dropdown box, or a grid control, or date picker, they all behave exactly the same way. Whether you're in CRM, or HCM, or inside a purchasing application, they all work the same, right? So, starting with that, then you go-- >> So if I can interrupt, so the Infor OS has the core services that you need, that the software needs to access for any function that you're building, correct? >> Exactly, yeah, yeah. >> Okay, please. >> So it's user experience, then you have integration. We have one integration layer called ION, and ION supports both an API layer, if you want to build a mobile app, you need APIs into the software, so built a lot of APIs into our applications. Those are exposed through a single gateway. There's one way to get into Infor applications through this API layer. We built that as part of Infor OS. We also built Coleman, which we announced last year. Coleman depends on two things. One, a lot of access to data, so I can crunch and do machine learning, and a lot of access to APIs. So what if you could create an acquisition, tucked into a device, versus having to open up a form, right? To do that, you need APIs. If you can order Domino's pizza from home, using Alexa, why can't you do that at work? So we built this framework for those kind of things. So it's got APIs, it's got Coleman, it's got data lake. So all of this data is in one place, so you can build analytics. We have Birst, which sits on top of the data lake, and I can go on. So that's really what we're doing with Infor OS. It's really, that's very, very important. It's not like your Intel Inside kind of thing. Without Infor OS, Infor apps don't work. >> So, if I can, if you bear with me, just to conceptualize the stack, the OS is at the bottom layer, and then you've got your micro-vertical functions as sort of the next layer, and then the cloud, which is really AWS, is the cloud infrastructure, then you've got the GT Nexus, essentially, the network commerce platform, so all those data and supply chain connection points that you have access to, Birst, the analytics, which was in acquisition last year, and then the Coleman AI completes the stack. My question is, as it relates to, for instance, Birst, that was an acquisition. So, you have to bring that in and do some engineering work to make it fit into the stack, is that right, or is it just kind of bolted on? >> No, you know, so, everything has to be done with the conscious way of design, right, so it just doesn't happen by itself. So, Birst is a fantastic world-class analytics platform, right? They as a company built a world-class platform that allows for department analytics, so if you're working in sales or working in marketing, you can go bring your own data, you can do analytics. It's great at that. At the same time, it's great at enterprise analytics, where you have all of this data in one place, you harmonize the data and do that. As a platform, it's a fantastic platform, but we're about delivering content on top of that platform, so we need to bring the network data, like you said, we need to bring the industry data, we need to bring the employee data from HCM. Bringing it all together and exposing that using Birst as the visualization layer is how we are exposing it. So to that extent, Birst was connected into the data lake, and it sits on top of the data lake, leverages that data. We built a semantic layer, which reflects the model of data that we have in the data lake, so yeah, it does, and we have the single sign-on, so it actually surfaces within Ming.le, within the homepage of a purchasing manager or whoever, and that's work, that's what we did. >> So you essentially re-platformed it. So of course, part of the due diligence is how challenging it's going to be to do that, how fast you can get that to market, but this is complicated. It requires a significant engineering resource on Infor's part. We talked about this a little bit at the analyst meeting last year, the industry analyst session. Couple things, one is the integration and exploitation of AWS cloud, and all the services there, the data pipelines, and the services there, but also modern software development. You know, microservices, and containers, and all of that good stuff. Can you talk about those sort of two dimension and any other points that you'd like to emphasize in terms of the things that Infor developers are doing to create this modern platform? >> Yeah, so, first of all, you know, we are all about applications, right, so we're not building databases, we're not building our own data centers, we're not building our own operating systems. We're a business software application company. Our belief is that if you try to verticalize and try to innovate on every single layer of what you do, it stifles innovation. Why not embrace industry's innovation, right? Can we out-spend AWS, in terms of building a cloud infrastructure? I don't think so. >> No way. >> No one can. And so, it's important to focus on what you do best, and leverage innovation that's coming in outside the four walls of Infor, to embrace that to deliver what the customer requires. So, what we really did is we took the AWS services, and we encapsulated them into our application, so when the application does disaster recovery, it's actually AWS services, right? When we call Elasticsearch, we're using AWS services there. We use DynamoDB for graphing the data in the data lake. Much like Facebook works on Open Graph, of trying to find people who are connected to each other, data inside the data lake is connected, right? Sales order is connected to a sales person. It's connected to a customer. Customer is connected to returns, and so on and so forth, so, we've done those kind of things. So, we've built a layer above the web services of AWS to actually create hooks into the application that leverages that, and we built our application itself in a sort of a microservices architecture. Granular APIs is a better way to describe how we did it, so that those granular APIs can be used in a digital project to create your own mobile app. It's the same APIs that are used in Coleman, for our digital assistant, or chat bots. All of those things require clear thought in terms of design, how you expose the functionality, and how you expose data, and that's what we did. >> Yeah, so, as a developer, in an engineering organization, having access to those primitives, those granular APIs, gives you what, greater flexibility, if the market turns, you can turn more quickly. I mean, it's more complicated, right, but it gives you finer grain control. Is that fair? >> Absolutely the case, yeah, and by the way, we know that the world is heterogeneous, right? I would love for a customer organization to just use Infor for everything, nothing else, right? But that's probably not realistic. So we built this to be able to work in a heterogeneous environment. So creating APIs and having this loosely-coupled architecture allows for that to happen. Ultimately, the customer has a choice. We obviously have to work to earn their business, but if they have other things outside of Infor that they're running in their ecosystem, you need to be able to embrace that. So this architecture actually allows for that. >> So it's the architecture, but if you're saying, if I'm a customer, and I want to run in the Google cloud, or Azure, technically, at least in theory, you can support that, but do you actually do that today, or is that sort of roadmap stuff? >> Technically, you could do that, right, but we obviously leveraged a lot of AWS services in our stack. What I meant to say in heterogeneity is that if you run a non-Infor application, right, so like, Salesforce for CRM, right? I would love for the customer to use Infor CRM, 'cause we think we are very competitive, but if they are running Salesforce, and they don't want to replace that, we need to be able to work in that environment, where it's running in a different cloud, it's running in a different architecture. So, we built Infor OS and the layer to be able to deal with that kind of hybrid deployments. >> Technically, what's the enabler there? Is it just sort of an API-based framework, or... >> It is API-based framework. It's also got federated security built into it. It's got the middleware understands, ION understands that data could come from a non-Infor system. As long as you're talking, you know, you go to United Nations, if everybody there has a headset, to really translate what anyone is saying, versus if everyone speaks English, well, world would be wonderful. >> But they spoke English yesterday. (John laughs) >> I got one more, I got one more geeky question. Anytime I get the head of engineering, you know, the CTO-- >> You love this. >> We love to get into it. The audience eats the stuff up. >> Yes. >> And we love the business talk too. But, I've heard a lot about multi-tenant architecture. My friends at servers now make a big deal about multi-instance, saying, oh, and I don't know if it's, if it can't fix a feature kind of thing, or if there's really, you know, additional value there, but the claim is it's more secure. Multi-tenant, I think conceptually, is certainly more cost-effective. What's your take on sort of multi-tenant? Why is it important? Maybe discuss the security levels that you guys engineer in, your comments. >> Yeah, yeah, if you have something that you can call it a feature, you can, like you said, but our belief is that multi-tenant architecture allows for faster innovation, easier update to the customer, to keep them current, and you know, you think about having thousands of individual instances that you have to update, on a weekly basis, because we will get to a weekly update. We are currently doing monthly update, and we get to a weekly update. That requires a natural act to create automation to be able to update all of them. I mean, there's, you know, you could argue which is really more pure, but multi-tenant architecture for us is one single application server farm that is able to work for different tenants, understanding their configuration, their business process, and operate the way they want it to be operated, but it is running in one single farm, that we can update as frequently as we need, without obviously causing disruption, so that is, I think is a good design scenario. Having said that, we actually isolate the data of a tenant, right, because you could have a scenario where all tenants' data is in one database. We don't do that. We actually insulate tenants so that data is not permeable. You can't go across tenants. So, we think that this is an elegant way to architect and keep it agile, and we can bring innovation faster to the customer. >> So when you go from monthly to weekly, to daily, to hourly, to minutely. Every customer comes with you, whereas in the multi-instance world, you actually have to plan for it. You've got to plan the migration. You're maybe N minus one, or maybe even N minus two, if that's supported, and it's more disruptive. >> That's correct. >> Okay, and then, you've got to engineer, you know, the security, and other factors. Thank you for that explanation. >> So, I always like to get back to, at the end of the day, you know, what are folks doing with what you're providing them, right? So, in kind of like your new services world, your new product world, what are some of the more, I guess, unique ways in which your customers are putting these great tools that you have to work for them, that you would like to use as kind of the poster child of success, and say, you know, we're providing this new value and these new enhancements, and give you the chance to take it to others, and use them as examples? >> Yeah, so, fundamentally, I'll be remiss if I don't start with the industry, right? So, it may not be very sexy, but ultimately, if I'm in a food and beverage industry, I really need to have a piece of software that understands that, right? Like for example, if you're an ice cream plant, you pay by part of a carton, you don't pay for the gallons of milk you get, right, so, does the software understand that? Right, if it don't, then you have to work around it, right? So, it may not sound sexy, but that's important to us, right? So, customers deploy without customization is very, very important for us. That's why we call it last man functionality. But if you flip to the technology side of things, I think that we're just scratching the surface in terms of what users want to do with Coleman. Coleman digital assistant, for example, like I earlier said about placing an acquisition target into a device. I think our idea is that every single employee of our customer organization should be using technology. Typical ERP, as it was deployed 20 years ago, only power users used it, right? Other people wrote on a piece of paper and sent it around. >> Same thing with decision support. There was like, three guys, two guys in the company who knew it. You had to go ask them to build a cube for you. >> Exactly. That doesn't scale, exactly. And we're living in a very diverse, global sort of set up. It doesn't work if you have three people who understand how to do BI, you know, two people who can create work flows, and I always like to use this example of this website called ifttt.com. I don't know if you've tried this or not. It literally stands for if this, then that. If I can go and describe something, and if this happens, then do that. Why can't we do that in enterprise software, right? Why is it that you have to go to knock on the door of IT to do it? So our idea is to bring that level of innovation, so we can innovate, our partners can innovate, customers can innovate, we don't step on each other. >> I got to ask you about a topic that we've heard a lot about this week, is robotic process automation, and you guys have essentially intimated, or at least, I've inferred that you've got quite a bit of capabilities in that regard. We're talking about software robots here, essentially, to replace sort of humans doing mundane tasks, or maybe augment humans. What is the capability that you have with RPA? Is it something that you're shipping today, and I have some follow up questions, if I may. >> Yeah, so, we built ION when we started building this years ago. We built it with the notion of build it on a data-rich architecture, right? What I mean by that is when something happens, an event happens in an application, a sales order is taken, or it's updated, give me a full copy of that document, that anyone can understand, right? That is a foundation of what you need to be able to externalize things like RPA. So we have access to the document as things happen. That's point number one. Point number two is that we built the Coleman AI platform, which we talked about earlier today. That actually leverages that workflow, as points in the workflow, to be able to go and do AI-based services that are hooks that are there in the workflow. So, where human beings need to intervene, I give an easy example. How often, like, there are people reporting to you, I do, and we get expense reports that people submit. First of all, I don't even look at them, Michelle looks at them, and do you think she opens and actually looks at how much somebody spent for dinner? No, you just push the button and approve. Why are we doing that, right? Why can't a robot figure out is there something that looks not quite right, then flag it, versus having to do this mundane work? So why can't Coleman do that? That's the way we've done it, and it's because we have a workflow engine, we have the API architecture, we have an AI platform, it's easy to wire these things together and having data externalized allows us to do that. >> So, in looking at the RPA market, there's several companies out there, and a lot of software companies, many of which are very, very complicated. You can't get your hands on the software. There is some, or maybe one in particular, it's easy, you download it, and it's low code or even no code, so I would imagine, I'm envisioning some kind of studio for a user like myself, who can, you know, is not technical, who can use it, and then maybe some kind of orchestrator, to be able to actually effect what I want done to get done. Is that something that you're shipping today, or how do I do it, as a user, and is it low code or no code? >> As an end user, if you are trying to figure out, yeah, I'll go to them to deploy, then obviously, you need a data scientist, okay? So, that part of it, we have a platform that is available for the data scientist, to be able to go look at the data, curate the data set, allow them to deploy different algorithms to figure out which one work, is the right for certain, then deploy that, and when you say deploy, it automatically creates an API, and allows for use anywhere. From an end user standpoint, like I said, this ifttt.com, you should be able to go in and say, set up your own alerts, that if I see, if you see, you know, X, Y, Z happen, let me know, or if I see X, Y, Z happen, you know, do this. So that part of capability exists in the platform, right? So, you can't completely replace data science and everything with the real end user doing it, but if you package the services in such a way that an end user can actually pick and choose and deploy, that can be done today. >> Your expense report, or approval example, and there are many, many others, so, are great, thank you for great. >> Soma, thank you, for the time too. We appreciate that. Thanks for dropping in, and again, great job on the keynote stage, and wish you success down the road here. >> Thanks a lot, appreciate it. >> I don't think you need it, though, I think you've got your, your act together really well. >> And your hands full. >> Yes, you do. A lot going on. All right, back with more here. We're live in Washington DC. You're watching theCUBE.

>> Live, from Washington D., it's the Cube. Covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> And welcome back to Inforum '18. We're live here in Washington DC as Inforum has brought its show to our nation's capital. I'm John Walls along with Dave Vellante. It's now a pleasure to welcome Vice President of corporate communications Dan Barnhardt. >> Thank you. >> Hey Dan, good morning to you. >> Good morning to you. Good to see you again. >> We were kidding before we got started about why you're here in Washington. We think it's for the weather, right, because it's so nice. >> It's gorgeous. >> But there is a reason. I mean, you've released a federal product today, have an announcement we'll get to in just a moment. But about coming to Washington. You've been in New York before, you've been in New Orleans. Why DC, why now? >> Well, it's important for us to make sure that our customers can access the event. We've got more customers that came this year than came previous years, certainly, than last year. And it's important to be in a city where it's accessible for our customers not just in the US, but also from Europe and Asia Pacific, Latin America and Washington DC's very accessible. We also are one of the largest suppliers to public sector organizations. That's, uh, local, state, and federal government. We've got a particular focus on federal government and fed ramp compliance this year, which we achieved. And, so, we're here so that we can show off some of that new technology that you just mentioned. >> Yeah, what about the significance of that? Of reaching the compliance goal. And what does that mean to the business going forward? >> Well, it's yet another example of the benefits of our cloud strategy and working with the AWS beginning in 2014. Infor was the first large ISV to embrace a public cloud. And Amazon and Amazon web services in particular has been very helpful in achieving fed ramp. They have a lot of federal customers. They've got a very large federal agency with three initials that is a customer and they require compliance with all of the federal regulations that continually change and the utmost security for customers and we're able to offer that to our customers as well. >> Yeah, we were talking on the kick off about that - how you guys can draft the AWS innovations and things like fed ramp and other compliance. They were first, they were way ahead of anybody. You as an ISV, you don't have to worry about all that stuff. I mean, you've still got to connect to it, but they do a lot of the heavy lifting, so that's cool. You got some other hard news. >> Well we also are able to focus on our products by doing that. We don't have to invest in proprietary cloud infrastructure or data centers or databases. We can focus on delivering innovation in our products and functionality that makes a difference for our customers. Their business is not - their customers don't care what infrastructure they're running on, they care how they're able to provide goods and services. So Infor focuses just on delivering better goods and services for our customers. >> What Charles said at the keynote this morning - our strategy, we didn't want to compete with Google and Amazon and Microsoft for scale of cloud. That made no sense. It also made the point that when we were an on prem - exclusively on prem software company, we didn't go out and manage servers for our clients. So we don't want to do that. So, big differentiator for sure, from some of the other SAS players. >> And it's paying off now in a way that our competitors are starting to come after us when they used to not want to acknowledge us. One of our larger competitors - on premise legacy vendor - had an anti-Infor ad on their homepage. They've got cabs outside of here. >> We're talking about- - Yeah >> And then Charles said, ya know if you're - we're welcome the competition here if you'd like to see innovation in enterprise software, this is the place to be. >> Well, congratulations, right, 'cause, well, you know, when Oracle's coming at you, it means you succeeded - that's good. Um, other hard news that you guys had this week - you got true cost accounting in healthcare and some other things, take us through those. >> Well health care has been a major focus industry for us, just along with government, which we mentioned. Um, seventy plus percent of large hospitals in the United States are automated using an Infor software. And healthcare has been an industry that's undergone a lot of disruption, obviously, for the last ten, twelve years, with the Affordable Care Act and others. And we're trying to figure out - we as a society are trying to figure out - how to deliver better care to patients, that's the goal for healthcare organizations. And to do that, they need to better understand what's the cost of care. So the Infor true cost, which we announced in January and have now delivered and have customers implementing, will help our customers understand better what is the cost of the care that they're giving so that they can give better care to their patients and allocate their resources in a way that will help more people heal better and feel better. >> We heard on the intro to the keynotes today, Turing, Edison, and Coleman. It sounded like it was Charles' voiceover. I don't know if it was or not, but >> It was. >> It was. He's got the smooth, mellifluous voice. Um, last year Coleman, Catherine, Coleman, Johnson - you named your AI offering platform after her. Give us the update where you're at today, you've got some other announcements around that as well. >> We do. It's a big announcement for Coleman here. We've got the GA of Coleman digital assistant, which is - enables humans to have - everyone to have an assistant at work with them to help automate certain functions such as search and gather, which can take twenty percent of people's time just collecting the information to make a decision. But now with Coleman digital assistant being live and customers implementing and going live on it right now, they're able - users are able to ask Coleman to fetch information and deliver not only the information but predictions and smart intelligence that helps people make better decisions and be more productive. >> So we had a lot of conversation this morning about robotic process automation, which is really interesting. I mean, essentially, we're talking about software robots taking over mundane tasks to humans. Now a lot of people like to talk about how - and we talked about this in the Cube all the time - how, oh, the machines are taking away jobs, but in speaking to numerous customers about RPA, they're thrilled that they don't have to do these mundane tasks because it makes them more valuable, they're doing more interesting things, and they're getting offers from others that are asking them to do this type of automation for their company. So they're more valuable to their existing company and outside companies. So, RPA - hot topic. You guys are leaning in hard. >> We definitely are. We definitely believe that there are jobs that - there are functions that can be better served by automation, particularly search and gather that we mentioned. There are multiple functions that will always be done by people. Human interaction is not going to change so we are looking to have a digital assistant make productivity better. Productivity is a function of being able to do more, having more workers, and we'd like to do both with this. We'd like people to be more productive using artificial intelligence assistance. And, also, a conversational user experience with software will make it easier and less intimidating for a lot of people to interact with technology at work. And we think that will also help people be able to be more productive in their jobs and have more people able to take more jobs that right now or in the past have required a level of technical expertise that you won't need when you can simply ask the computer to do something for you using your own conversational language. >> Some major data points - excuse me - >> That's okay. that came out of the keynote this morning - one is that there are now more job openings than there are unemployed individuals and productivity, even though the tech spending is booming, it doesn't show up in the productivity numbers. We saw this actually, you know, a couple decades ago in the nineties. And all of a sudden you saw this massive productivity boom. I've predicted that with automation and artificial intelligence you're going to see something similar. It seems like Infor's on a mission - that human potential tagline - on a mission to really drive that productivity and help close those gaps. >> We definitely are. Our tagline is "design for progress" and we are looking to promote progress around the world and do what we can in order to help human progress and the theme at Inforum is human potential and that's what we're looking to do here. We have seen a lot of productivity growth in people's personal lives. I now - I don't know how to set a timer to cook anymore, I just ask Alexa to do it, but we haven't seen that at enterprise yet. So we're bringing consumer grade technology that people have gotten used to in their everyday lives but they don't see at the office. We're bringing it to the office to help make them equally as productive as they are in their personal lives. >> Yeah, that's what I wanted to hit on, actually, was the theme of the show. We're talking about human potential and which Hervan Jones talking about that, you know, from a personal mission statement if you want - that's the way he worded it. But, what's the broad scope of that in terms of how you apply that thematically throughout the company when you talk about human potential, because it's just not you, obviously you're trying to do that for your clients, you're trying to do that for the people they serve, do it for taxpayers, right, through the federal sector. But talk about that from the thirty thousand foot level about human potential - unlocking that and how Infor totally is, I guess, trying to illustrate that or put that in place. >> Certainly. The first thing I would mention is our human capital management. Infor is a very large provider of HR software - there's others that are perhaps better known, but Infor has many customers that are using our HR software, but they're also using our software for other key functions. And by integrating those two things, we're able to help people be their best self at work. Because it's not just the HR management, but the HR system knows what you're working on, they can help with professional development, and talent management, and align that to the business processes that the company has. We're also looking to engage workers. As you mentioned, there are more job openings than there are unemployed people that we believe seeking employment right now, but they're not very engaged. So we're hoping to have technology and learning management to help engage more workers. And then we'd also like to increase new business creation. One of the things that Charles mentioned that slowed down is the introduction of new businesses and small businesses. We believe one of the reasons for that is that there is so much business automation that goes on that in order to achieve that to be competitive requires so much capital investment that it makes it difficult to start a new business. But if we're able to automate a lot of that business, we're able to make it really easy through Infor cloud suite for new business starting, we feel like we'll be able to help entrepreneurs generate new businesses which will employ more people and offer more engaging and rewarding jobs and help fill some of those gaps that we have. >> We've talked a lot about AI - not just some magic thing that you throw at your business - it has to be operationalized and the likely way in which organizations are going to consume AI is it's going to be infused in applications. And this is exactly what your strategy it, isn't it? >> It is. The artificial intelligence is only going to be as smart as the amount of data that it can access and that it can analyze. It doesn't have a brain, it looks at data and learns from that data and where it tells you. And Infor has access to data that very few companies have - mission critical data, ERP, data manufacturing, distribution - core processes that we're able to put in the cloud, and not just in the cloud, but in a multi-tenant cloud environment where it can be drawn from analytics, from our burst analytics engine. And then, Coleman can make decisions based on that data - not only from within the enterprise but across the network using GT Nexus commerce network. >> Yeah, so we're hearing a lot about HCM, of course, at this show, you know, human potential, fits into talent management, HCM. You guys have a very competitive product there, it's sort of a knife fight with some of the large SAS players, but I was excited to see so much attention paid to HCM as a key part of your SAS portfolio - your thoughts? >> I do, I agree with you and I think one of the differentiating points that we just mentioned was that Infor HCM also connects to Infor systems that automate core business processes. So it's not just about those business processes, but also knowing who the people are that work on them and helping companies navigate. So much time is wasted from what we would call tribal knowledge - an employee getting up to speed or figuring out how to navigate inside an organization, particularly a large enterprise. And Infor HCM can help make that easier, but they can do that while attached to a business process so that everything can move faster and more efficiently for the customer. >> I wonder if you could comment, Dan, on this notion of best of breed versus a full suite. It seems like - so for decades, there's been this argument of oh, best of breed point products will sometimes win but full suite, people want a single throat to choke and that integration - It seems like with your micro-vertical strategy you're trying to do both - be both best of breed and have a full suite across the enterprise application portfolio. Is that right, you know, do you feel like you guys are succeeding at that, uh where do you think you fit in that whole spectrum? >> That is correct, and it's one of the things that we're able to do because of our cloud strategy - is to offer the complete suite and the artificial intelligence that comes on top of it. In the past, when there wasn't an artificial intelligence layer, there wasn't the machine learning that needed to draw from all of that data, best of breed individual applications would work. But now that we're trying to pull data together so that you can make more intelligent and you get actionable insights that let you make more intelligent decisions, that requires an integrated suite. And that can be done now in a multi-tenant cloud environment that couldn't be done before. >> The other thing I would observe - we talked about this, John - is - >> I'd also really quick just add that I think that that's proving to be correct in the amount of growth that we're seeing. Infor is significantly outgrowing from a revenue perspective. Oracle, more than forty percent last year, more than double the rate of growth of SAP and our growth rate for cloud applications is up there with work day which is setting the bar for cloud software companies. >> Yeah, that's true, that's a great point. I mean work day has set the bar and this is an example of what was essentially a narrow point product there to, of course, trying to get into other spaces. Of course, SAP and Oracle always have had a large suite. Your strategy has seemed to be working in terms of being a place where a customer can come in and access a lot of different functionality. The other thing that we heard today - a year in - is the Koch Industries investment. I was noticing that you now see Accenture here, you see Grant Thorton, Deloitte- >> Capgemini >> Yeah, Capgemini - these people are taking notice of - I would imagine Koch Industries does a lot of business with those guys and one of the gentlemen from Koch told me last year - said "Hey, we're going to expose these SI's to the Infor opportunity." It seems like it started to happen and I've heard that there's been several large deals that they've helped to catalyze, so it's great to see that presence here. Talk a little bit about the Koch Industries dynamic and what that's brought to the table. >> Well, the Koch relationship for Infor has been so helpful. First, obviously, there's a large infusion of cash from the investment. It was 2.5 billion dollars - one of the largest tech investments that wasn't an acquisition in history. And we're able to use that capital to increase more functionality. Not only that, but Infor has an industrial background. The majority of our customers are in manufacturing or distribution - industries that Koch Industries is a big player in. So not only do we have a great partner, but we have a living lab in one of the world's best and most efficient companies with which to develop our software, implement our software, and test our software. And we've got a willing partner in Koch that can do that and provide a lot of that expertise. >> I was telling Dave that that's what really struck me listening to the keynote was that - yeah - it's this wonderful symbiotic relationship and they gave you money - that's nice, right - but you have an opportunity now to roll out services, products, experiment a little bit. >> We do. >> See how it works within the Koch family, if you will, before you take it out further and so you've got this great test lab at your disposal that you didn't have before. >> And like Infor, Koch is a private company, so we don't feel the same pressure to provide quarterly return to shareholders that public companies do. So we're able to invest more of our revenue in development and R and D in ensuring that our products are going to deliver the best experience and the best functionality for our customers. >> Well, to me, the key for Infor - a key - is you've got a large install base and you're trying to get that install base to come to a more modern, SAS-like, cloud-like platform. To do that, you got to be relevant. So, the stuff like Coleman, the burst acquisition, your micro-verticals - those are all highly relevant. You know, your ability eliminate custom mods because you go that last mile. Highly relevant to companies that have to place a bet. Now, when they have to move to this new world, you know, others are going to try to grab them, so you got to hang on to them. To me, relevance, and showing a road map, and showing an investment, and things like R and D, is critical - your thoughts? >> I agree with you, I think that's the reason that we're seeing those large global system integrators partner with Infor now and develop practices that Accenture and Deloitte, Grant Thornton, and Capgemini, that will implement Infor software at their customers. They're having the demand from the customers that they're working with, including up to the largest of enterprises, for Infor software, just simply because we are able to automate processes and help them get to a level of automation that will let them compete in the digital era. There are companies all over are fearing that they're going to be disrupted by a digital, native competitor or a digitally enabled competitor. And we're looking to help Infor customers become digitally enabled themselves and to be that disruptive competitor in their field. >> Well, Dan, we appreciate the time >> Thank you very much. >> Good seeing you, thanks for having us here. >> Thanks for coming back again. >> Overlooking the show floor, got a great seat - >> Yeah, a lot of activity down there. >> And, uh, good luck with the rest of the show. >> Thank you very much. >> Dan Barnhardt, from Infor back with more. Live on the Cube here from Washington DC at Inforum '18. (bright, electric music)

>> Live from Washington DC, it's theCUBE. Covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well, welcome to the nation's capital, a rain soaked Washington DC. We're here for Inforum 18, Dave Vellante, John Walls We're in the Walter Washington Convention Center. The fourth time, theCUBE has been at an Infor show and getting bigger and better than ever, David. >> That's right John. This is, let's see, the first one was in New Orleans several years ago. Then Infor skipped a year, and then did Javits couple years in a row. That's sort of the headquarters of where Infor is, very close to the Javits Center. And Charles Phillips, of course, lives in New York City. And this year they decided to come to the nation's capital. I mean, Infor is an interesting company. About $3billion in revenue, essentially it is a private equity roll up. From Golden Gate and others, that really the roots of it are in Lawson Softwares. Some of you may remember Lawson Softwares, the enterprise software company. And then Charles Phillips came on, and of course he was the architect of Oracle's M and A. Probably spent $30 plus billion for Larry Ellison, remaking Oracle. Completely transforming Oracle, brought some of that expertise to Infor in this private equity play, this roll up. And then bought many, many software companies, rolled them up together and really started to compete, using a different model. So, Infor's sort of expertise, if you will is around so called Micro verticals, so they cover a lot of different industries, hospitality industries, they got also manufacturing, ERP, >> Retail financial >> Retail financial, health care, and then they also have horizontal applications like Human Capital management. Their differentiation, is several fold. One major point is they go after what they call the last mile. So they call this micro verticals. So the last mile functionality that would normally have to be customized, Infor does that work for you. Now, the advantage of that is two fold. One is you don't have to do a bunch of custom mods all that hard work is done. The second is, another part of the differentiation is cloud. So they chose, several years ago to go with AWS cloud to put their SaaS on the cloud. Charles Phillips said 'hey when we were an on-prem software company, we didn't manage our own servers for our customers. Or manage customer servers, we didn't do that. So why would we do it in the cloud? We don't want to compete with Google and Microsoft and Amazon in terms of scale, so were going to put our software on the Amazon cloud.' So that's another point of differentiation, the reason that is so important in the context of custom mods, is if you're rolling out new upgrades on a periodic basis, and you hear this a lot from Servicenow customers, for example another cloud software company. You can't do custom mods and then take advantage of the new releases. Because you're going to be way behind. Okay, so you have to have that hard work done so that you can avoid those custom modification. And that is something Infor has been very proud of. So as I say, $3billion company. Last year they took a $2billion investment from Koch industries. Now that investment, largely went to recapitalising the company, the private equity guys probably took some money off the table as did the four, what I call the four horsemen. They were the four, sort of new founders of Infor including Charles Phillips, Pam Murphey who is still there and then two others Duncan Angove and Stephan who have left the company, so they have got some succession planning now. We saw a different, two new faces up on stage Soma and we're going to have some other folks on that we'll introduce you to. But so, now we're entering a new phase and it's the phase of what Charles Phillip's coined 'Human Potentials'. So big focus this year on human capital management, we heard that. Big focus on AI, they talked a lot about robotic process automation. I just had a meeting, last night at the airport in DCA with the head of marketing at an RPA company, UiPath, they are smoking hot, they just raised 225 million they have gone from 2 million to 200 million over night. And that space is exploding, it was interesting to hear Charles Phillips talk a lot today about Robotic process automation, RPA. Which is essentially software >> Break that down for me. >> So RPA is software robots and software robots are used to automate mundane tasks. Having machines do very specific tasks and you are seeing this a lot in financial services and a lot of back office automation. It's not physical robots moving around, it's basically software based processes that machines can do. Repetitive processes, that machines can do better. Machines don't get tired, so they can do these repetitive tasks, take that away those mundane tasks away from humans. You heard a lot of conversation about that today. You also heard a little competitive fire. So Oracle is now taking ads out against Infor, we've seen that. All the cabs here, many of the cabs have Oracle branding on them. So Oracle is paying attention to Infor. >> And they're right down the road here too, by the way. You know, I mean, Western Virginia not far so this is their backyard. >> Well congratulations Infor, Oracle is paying attention to you that means, must mean you're hurting them We've seen this before with others, I mean we certainly saw it, you know in past days with IBM, we see it extensively with Workday. We've seen some kind of, tit for tat with SalesForce, even though SalesForce is one of Oracles largest customers. So that's been kind of fun, fun to watch. And now Infor, so Infor clearly is doing some damage, to the traditional guys. Oracle, SAP, Workday maybe not so much Workday is growing like crazy, but Infor claims it is growing SaaS revenue 50% faster than Oracle's SaaS revenue. It's growing double the rate of SAP, and growing as fast almost as Workday, is kind of what it claims. And so, this whole enterprise resource planning, HCM, vertical market software, horizontal software the market is always been hot. It's a huge, huge market. Many, many, tens of billions, it's probably a hundred billion dollar TAM. And the big, big whales are of course Oracle and SAP, and then of course, SalesForce and you've seen the emergence of companies like ServiceNow which has quite a bit of different strategy but with Oracle, with Infor's sort of Oracle heritage a lot of people in the company came from Oracle so they know where the skeletons are buried they know how to compete, they have relationships with the customers. And they're offering some differentiation, as they say with those Micro verticals, the last mile, and the pure cloud model. Now, if you look at the income statement you'll see the SaaS portion of the business only represents about 25% of the revenues but remember, that's a ratable model. So you're only recognizing revenue as you're, as the months go on, so you're billing sort of monthly if you will, or recognizing monthly. And so, as a result that skews and dampens the effects of the SaaS software, I think from a booking stand point is probably much higher, proportion of bookings I would guess closer to 50% as they said they took $2billion last year from Koch industries. That $2billion dollars didn't really hit the balance sheets, they get about $330million on the balance sheet. And they've a lot of debt, because they you know did you know, it was a private equity you know leverage deal. They did a lot of acquisitions, so they've probably got about $5.7billions of what they call net debt, which presumably is debt after cash. So I would guess close to $6billion in debt. They're a quasi, they're not a public company they're a private company, but they act in many ways like a public company, I would suspect within the next couple of years here, if this kind of growth continues that you'll see an IPO, from Infor. Although, presumably Koch industries, we heard Koch on stage today, they said they've made $15billion in investments in technology companies. $2billion, this has to be one of their largest. And, but that's patient capital. They get the benefit of the cash flow, they can probably take dividends if they want to do that. And if they're smart, and they invest and they can take market share from Oracle and SAP and others, and gain share in the market space, they can do an IPO. They're revenues are $3billion, their valuation, they implied a valuation based on the Koch industries investment is $15billion. So if they can take that $15billion to $30billion 20 to 30 billion, there's going to be a nice return. >> You know I thought, what's interesting about Koch too they talked about this, it's certainly as you talked about 2billion right. They put the money in, but they're also, it's a symbiotic relationship, in that that Koch is using it's organization as a test lab. For a lot of products and services, that Infor is producing. And allowing them to refine that under the Koch umbrella before they take it out to the market place. So that's pretty true, I feel like seems to makes sense. You have a company that has 60,000 world wide employees, you're in dozens of countries, you've a chance to let them take their products to scale, in maybe a somewhat more friendlier, controlled environment before you take it out to the marketplace. That seems to make a lot of sense. >> Yeah, we heard the CIO of Koch industries today and I talked to him last year, and we were talking about some of the technical debt that they had, again going back to those custom modifications that I was talking about earlier. They were in this terrible virtuous cycle almost a negative virtuous cycle where they had so many custom mods that they couldn't make changes. So the applications were becoming voxalised, so they were becoming non competitive and that is the last thing that a line of business wants to hear, is 'hey we can't make the changes, right IT says no, we can't touch the code, it's working or changes take too long. They take months or sometimes years, to get to a major release and so as a result Koch was looking for ways to simplify its application portfolio and its application infrastructure. The other thing that Koch industries has brought is, you might notice on the show floor here, you see Accenture, you see Deloitte, you're seeing Grant Thornton, now these guys weren't really going after, or going hard after the Infor base before. I think, a company like Koch industries does a lot of business with these SIs and so I think Koch has introduced the SIs to the Infor opportunity and maybe nudged them a little bit and say 'hey as a big you know supplier to us, we're a big customer of yours we want you to pay attention to that opportunity and in earnest go look at ways to partner with Infor. And that's happened, my intelligence suggests there are many multi million dollar deals that are being capitalized by these big SIs and they do a ton of business with SAP and Oracle. So that's another positive in the tail wind that Koch industries, I think it's brought to the table. >> Alright, you mention human potential which is the real overarching theme of the show here this week. Again, we're here in Washington DC. I was just listening to Van Jones from CNN. One of their anchors and political contributor talking about that as his personal mantra but certainly that intersects with what Infor is talking about in terms of unlocking human potential and using technology to do that. Share a little light from Charles Phillip's perspective the key note address that he gave, in terms of how do they view human potential and unlocking it with the use of their services? >> Well we're going to have Charles Phillip's on so we'll certainly ask him that but Charles Phillip's is a guy with a lot of potential. And that he is realizing that potential >> Lot of track record too >> Exactly, this is an individual with a military background, he became I don't know if you know the story but he became a highly successful Wall Street analyst. He wrote the seminal piece in the 90s that said the software industry, is too many software players and is going to consolidate. Larry Ellison, prior to reading that used to denigrate competitors for writing cheques not code. Meaning, his competitors were acquiring companies instead of innovating. Well then, he went on a spending spree probably 30, 35 million dollars in acquisitions orchestrated by Charles Phillips. And they totally remade Oracle starting with a soft hostile takeover. And then now you see Oracle, obviously this Saas powerhouse with many many companies that were bought in. Charles Phillips left Oracle, became the CEO of Infor and we heard today, architected an entirely new strategy with a stack, they call this thing the Stack. I'll just go through this briefly, I wrote about it last year, in the WikiBon blog. They've got the Infor platform, the Infor OS and then it goes all the way up to AI, the last mile software, the cloud. They have this thing called GT nexus, which is a supply chain network and that where their IoT play fits. Then they bought a company last year called Birst, to do BI and analytics, and then on top of that is Coleman. So they've got this stack that they are basically infusing into their applications, and I will answer your question. Essentially what they want to do is, use automation and artificial intelligence to essentially coach people, worker, as they're doing their jobs. So we heard today, that there are more openings than there are unemployed >> Employees, yeah. >> And productivity is going down. So Infor, Charles Phillips wants to attack that problem through software and automation. How do you do that? Well, if you could use artificial intelligence to monitor people's KPIs, they didn't use those terms but that is essentially what they are doing. And then provide feedback on outcomes, 'hey you could have done it differently. You could have done it more quickly. The outcome could have been better if.' Also, analyzing other factors like the relationship for example, using data to analyze the relationship between say tenure or were you recently promoted or turn over on the productivity of for instance stores, retail stores for example. And so, you're seeing an infusion of AI and software and automation in to the entire application portfolio to unlock the human potential. That's one part of it, the other part of it is Charles Phillips is big on diversity, big on women in business, and so that's another angle that I am sure we are going to hear more about this week. >> I thought it was interesting too any time a show comes to Washington there is a reason. And it's generally federal sector based, policy based. There's a regulatory undertone of some kind. And it was addressed somewhat on the key note stage here this morning. But the idea, the notion was that federal regulation and federal mandates, whatever, can't keep up the pace. They just can't, and it really is up to the tech sector because it works on a much different time frame, right? I mean, changes are made by the minute, whereas policy gets shaped by the year. You know, up on the hill here, not far about 3 miles 2 miles from here. So, the tech sector's responsibility in that regard in terms of being more diverse, of having more inclusivity, of looking at environmental considerations. All these things, and of unleashing human potential. And not at making a government do that. Not letting a regulation do that. That certainly plays in the Infor's thinking as well, I would think? >> Yes, so first of all we were down here at the AWS public sector event in June. And there were ten thousand people here. So AWS has a huge presence here. Infor and AWS are big time partners. And remember the CIA was the first deal, the first cloud deal, that AWS did, they won. IBM contested it, the judge eviscerated IBM in his ruling. Basically saying they were gaming the system. They were purposely misinterpreting the RFP. Amazon won hands down, it was a huge victory for Amazon. Forced IBM to go out and capitulate and purchase Softlayer for $2billion. I believe that only helps a company like Infor who has decided to be all public cloud, with AWS and drafting off AWS' deep ties to various government agencies, in the GovCloud. So for instance, AWS was first with fedramp. First with a lot of different certifications and security hurdles. And so Infor can just draft off of that. The CIA, again a big account, we heard the CIA talk in June about how security on the worst day of cloud is better than its client server applications on their best day. And so, I suspect Infor is doing business with the CIA although that's not come out publicly. But I would think that there is an advantage Infor has because of that AWS relationship. And that makes DC all the much more important for them. Well, we are at Inforum 18, we have a full 2 days of scheduling for you. Great guest coming up here on theCUBE. I am with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls We'll continue here on theCUBE live from DC right after this break.

>> Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE! Covering Inforum D.C. 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well, welcome back to Washington, D.C., We are alive here at the Convention Center at Inforum 18, along with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls. It's a pleasure now, welcome to theCUBE, Leigh Martin, who is the Senior Director of the Dynamic Science Labs at Infor, and good afternoon to you Leigh! >> Good afternoon, thank you for having me. >> Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you for being here. Alright, well tell us about the Labs first off, obviously, data science is a big push at Infor. What do you do there, and then why is data science such a big deal? >> So Dynamic Science Labs is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, we have about 20 scientists with backgrounds in math and science areas, so typically PhDs in Statistics and Operations Research, and those types of areas. And, we've really been working over the last several years to build solutions for Infor customers that are Math and Science based. So, we work directly with customers, typically through proof of concept, so we'll work directly with customers, we'll bring in their data, and we will build a solution around it. We like to see them implement it, and make sure we understand that they're getting the value back that we expect them to have. Once we prove out that piece of it, then we look for ways to deliver it to the larger group of Infor customers, typically through one of the Cloud Suites, perhaps functionality, that's built into a Cloud Suite, or something like that. >> Well, give me an example, I mean it's so, as you think-- you're saying that you're using data that's math and science based, but, for application development or solution development if you will. How? >> So, I'll give you an example, so we have a solution called Inventory Intelligence for Healthcare, it's moving towards a more generalized name of Inventory Intelligence, because we're going to move it out of the healthcare space and into other industries, but this is a product that we built over the last couple of years. We worked with a couple of customers, we brought in their loss and data, so their loss in customers, we bring the data into an area where we can work on it, we have a scientist in our team, actually, she's one of the Senior Directors in the team, Dawn Rose, who led the effort to design and build this, design and build the algorithm underlying the product; and what it essentially does is, it allows hospitals to find the right level of inventory. Most hospitals are overstocked, so this gives them an opportunity to bring down their inventory levels, to a manageable place without increasing stockouts, so obviously, it's very important in healthcare, that you're not having a lot of stockouts. And so, we spent a lot of time working with these customers, really understanding what the data was like that they were giving to us, and then Dawn and her team built the algorithm that essentially says, here's what you've done historically, right? So it's based on historic data, at the item level, at the location level. What've you done historically, and how can we project out the levels you should have going forward, so that they're at the right level where you're saving money, but again, you're not increasing stockouts, so. So, it's a lot of time and effort to bring those pieces together and build that algorithm, and then test it out with the customers, try it out a couple of times, you make some tweaks based on their business process and exactly how it works. And then, like I said, we've now built that out into originally a stand-alone application, and in about a month, we're going to go live in Cloud Suite Financials, so it's going to be a piece of functionality inside of Cloud Suite Financials. >> So, John, if I may, >> Please. >> I'm going to digress for a moment here because the first data scientist that I ever interviewed was the famous Hilary Mason, who's of course now at Cloudera, but, and she told me at the time that the data scientist is a part mathematician, part scientist, part statistician, part data hacker, part developer, and part artist. >> Right. (laughs) >> So, you know it's an amazing field that Hal Varian, who is the Google Economist said, "It's going to be the hottest field, in the next 10 years." And this is sort of proven true, but Leigh, my question is, so you guys are practitioners of data science, and then you bring that into your product, and what we hear from a lot of data scientists, other than that sort of, you know, panoply of skill sets, is, they spend more time wrangling data, and the tooling isn't there for collaboration. How are you guys dealing with that? How has that changed inside of Infor? >> It is true. And we actually really focus on first making sure we understand the data and the context of the data, so it's really important if you want to solve a particular business problem that a customer has, to make sure you understand exactly what is the definition of each and every piece of data that's in all of those fields that they sent over to you, before you try to put 'em inside an algorithm and make them do something for you. So it is very true that we spend a lot of time cleaning and understanding data before we ever dive into the problem solving aspect of it. And to your point, there is a whole list of other things that we do after we get through that phase, but it's still something we spend a lot of time on today, and that has been the case for, a long time now. We, wherever we can, we apply new tools and new techniques, but actually just the simple act of going in there and saying, "What am I looking at, how does it relate?" Let me ask the customer to clarify this to make sure I understand exactly what it means. That part doesn't go away, because we're really focused on solving the customer solution and then making sure that we can apply that to other customers, so really knowing what the data is that we're working with is key. So I don't think that part has actually changed too much, there are certainly tools that you can look at. People talk a lot about visualization, so you can start thinking, "Okay, how can I use some visualization to help me understand the data better?" But, just that, that whole act of understanding data is key and core to what we do, because, we want to build the solution that really answers the answers the business problem. >> The other thing that we hear a lot from data scientists is that, they help you figure out what questions you actually have to ask. So, it sort of starts with the data, they analyze the data, maybe you visualize the data, as you just pointed out, and all these questions pop out. So what is the process that you guys use? You have the data, you've got the data scientist, you're looking at the data, you're probably asking all these questions. You get, of course, get questions from your customers as well. You're building models maybe to address those questions, training the models to get better and better and better, and then you infuse that into your software. So, maybe, is that the process? Is it a little more complicated than that? Maybe you could fill in the gaps. >> Yeah, so, I, my personal opinion, and I think many of my colleagues would agree with me on this is, starting with the business problem, for us, is really the key. There are ways to go about looking at the data and then pulling out the questions from the data, but generally, that is a long and involved process. Because, it takes a lot of time to really get that deep into the data. So when we work, we really start with, what's the business problem that the customer's trying to solve? And then, what's the data that needs to be available for us to be able to solve that? And then, build the algorithm around that. So for us, it's really starting with the business problem. >> Okay, so what are some of the big problems? We heard this morning, that there's a problem in that, there's more job openings than there are candidates, and productivity, business productivity is not being impacted. So there are two big chewy problems that data scientists could maybe attack, and you guys seem to be passionate about those, so. How does data science help solve those problems? >> So, I think that, at Infor, I'll start off by saying at Infor there's actually, I talked about the folks that are in our office in Cambridge, but there's quite a bit of data science going on outside of our team, and we are the data science team, but there are lots of places inside of Infor where this is happening. Either in products that contains some sort of algorithmic approach, the HCM team for sure, the talent science team which works on HCM, that's a team that's led by Jill Strange, and we work with them on certain projects in certain areas. They are very focused on solving some of those people-related problems. For us, we work a little bit more on the, some of the other areas we work on is sort of the manufacturing and distribution areas, we work with the healthcare side of things, >> So supply chain, healthcare? >> Exactly. So some of the other areas, because they are, like I said, there are some strong teams out there that do data science, it's just, it's also incorporated with other things, like the talent science team. So, there's lots of examples of it out there. In terms of how we go about building it, so we, like I was saying, we work on answering the business, the business question upfront, understanding the data, and then, really sitting with the customer and building that out, and, so the problems that come to us are often through customers who have particular things that they want to answer. So, a lot of it is driven by customer questions, and particular problems that they're facing. Some of it is driven by us. We have some ideas about things that we think, would be really useful to customers. Either way, it ends up being a customer collaboration with us, with the product team, that eventually we'll want to roll it out too, to make sure that we're answering the problem in the way that the product team really feels it can be rolled out to customers, and better used, and more easily used by them. >> I presume it's a non-linear process, it's not like, that somebody comes to you with a problem, and it's okay, we're going to go look at that. Okay now, we got an answer, I mean it's-- Are you more embedded into the development process than that? Can you just explain that? >> So, we do have, we have a development team in Prague that does work with us, and it's depending on whether we think we're going to actually build a more-- a product with aspects to it like a UI, versus just a back end solution. Depends on how we've decided we want to proceed with it. so, for example, I was talking about Inventory Intelligence for Healthcare, we also have Pricing Science for Distribution, both of those were built initially with UIs on them, and customers could buy those separately. Now that we're in the Cloud Suites, that those are both being incorporated into the Cloud Suite. So, we have, going back to where I was talking about our team in Prague, we sometimes build product, sort of a fully encased product, working with them, and sometimes we work very closely with the development teams from the various Cloud Suites. And the product management team is always there to help us, to figure out sort of the long term plan and how the different pieces fit together. >> You know, kind of big picture, you've got AI right, and then machine learning, pumping all kinds of data your way. So, in a historical time frame, this is all pretty new, this confluence right? And in terms of development, but, where do you see it like 10 years from now, 20 years from now? What potential is there, we've talked about human potential, unlocking human potential, we'll unlock it with that kind of technology, what are we looking at, do you think? >> You know, I think that's such a fascinating area, and area of discussion, and sort of thinking, forward thinking. I do believe in sort of this idea of augmented intelligence, and I think Charles was talking a little bit about, about that this morning, although not in those particular terms; but this idea that computers and machines and technology will actually help us do better, and be better, and being more productive. So this idea of doing sort of the rote everyday tasks, that we no longer have to spend time doing, that'll free us up to think about the bigger problems, and hopefully, and my best self wants to say we'll work on famine, and poverty, and all those problems in the world that, really need our brains to focus on, and work. And the other interesting part of it is, if you think about, sort of the concept of singularity, and are computers ever going to actually be able to think for themselves? That's sort of another interesting piece when you talk about what's going to happen down the line. Maybe it won't happen in 10 years, maybe it will never happen, but there's definitely a lot of people out there, who are well known in sort of tech and science who talk about that, and talk about the fears related to that. That's a whole other piece, but it's fascinating to think about 10 years, 20 years from now, where we are going to be on that spectrum? >> How do you guys think about bias in AI and data science, because, humans express bias, tribalism, that's inherent in human nature. If machines are sort of mimicking humans, how do you deal with that and adjudicate? >> Yeah, and it's definitely a concern, it's another, there's a lot of writings out there and articles out there right now about bias in machine learning and in AI, and it's definitely a concern. I actually read, so, just being aware of it, I think is the first step, right? Because, as scientists and developers develop these algorithms, going into it consciously knowing that this is something they have to protect against, I think is the first step, for sure. And then, I was just reading an article just recently about another company (laughs) who is building sort of a, a bias tracker, so, a way to actually monitor your algorithm and identify places where there is perhaps bias coming in. So, I do think we'll see, we'll start to see more of those things, it gets very complicated, because when you start talking about deep learning and networks and AI, it's very difficult to actually understand what's going on under the covers, right? It's really hard to get in and say this is the reason why, your AI told you this, that's very hard to do. So, it's not going to be an easy process but, I think that we're going to start to see that kind of technology come. >> Well, we heard this morning about some sort of systems that could help, my interpretation, automate, speed up, and minimize the hassle of performance reviews. >> Yes. (laughs) >> And that's the classic example of, an assertive woman is called abrasive or aggressive, an assertive man is called a great leader, so it's just a classic example of bias. I mentioned Hilary Mason, rock star data scientist happens to be a woman, you happen to be a woman. Your thoughts as a woman in tech, and maybe, can AI help resolve some of those biases? >> Yeah. Well, first of all I want to say, I'm very pleased to work in an organization where we have some very strong leaders, who happen to be women, so I mentioned Dawn Rose, who designed our IIH solution, I mentioned Jill Strange, who runs the talent science organization. Half of my team is women, so, particularly inside of sort of the science area inside of Infor, I've been very pleased with the way we've built out some of that skill set. And, I'm also an active member of WIN, so the Women's Infor Network is something I'm very involved with, so, I meet a lot of people across our organization, a lot of women across our organization who have, are just really strong technology supporters, really intelligent, sort of go-getter type of people, and it's great to see that inside of Infor. I think there's a lot of work to be done, for sure. And you can always find stories, from other, whether it's coming out of Silicon Valley, or other places where you hear some, really sort of arcane sounding things that are still happening in the industry, and so, some of those things it's, it's disappointing, certainly to hear that. But I think, Van Jones said something this morning about how, and I liked the way he said it, and I'm not going to be able say it exactly, but he said something along the lines of, "The ground is there, the formation is starting, to get us moving in the right direction." and I think, I'm hopeful for the future, that we're heading in that way, and I think, you know, again, he sort of said something like, "Once the ground swell starts going in that direction, people will really jump in, and will see the benefits of being more diverse." Whether it's across, having more women, or having more people of color, however things expand, and that's just going to make us all better, and more efficient, and more productive, and I think that's a great thing. >> Well, and I think there's a spectrum, right? And on one side of the spectrum, there's intolerable and unacceptable behavior, which is just, should be zero tolerance in my opinion, and the passion of ours in theCUBE. The other side of that spectrum is inclusion, and it's a challenge that we have as a small company, and I remember having a conversation, earlier this year with an individual. And we talk about quotas, and I don't think that's the answer. Her comment was, "No, that's not the answer, you have to endeavor to reach deeper beyond your existing network." Which is hard sometimes for us, 'cause you're so busy, you're running around, it's like okay it's the convenient thing to do. But you got to peel the onion on that network, and actually take the extra time and make it a priority. I mean, your thoughts on that? >> No, I think that's a good point, I mean, if I think about who my circle is, right? And the people that I know and I interact with. If I only reach out to the smallest group of people, I'm not getting really out beyond my initial circle. So I think that's a very good point, and I think that that's-- we have to find ways to be more interactive, and pull from different areas. And I think it's interesting, so coming back to data science for a minute, if you sort of think about the evolution of where we got to, how we got to today where, now we're really pulling people from science areas, and math areas, and technology areas, and data scientists are coming from lots of places, right? And you don't always have to have a PhD, right? You don't necessary have to come up through that system to be a good data scientist, and I think, to see more of that, and really people going beyond, beyond just sort of the traditional circles and the traditional paths to really find people that you wouldn't normally identify, to bring into that, that path, is going to help us, just in general, be more diverse in our approach. >> Well it certainly it seems like it's embedded in the company culture. I think the great reason for you to be so optimistic going forward, not only about your job, but about the way companies going into that doing your job. >> What would you advise, young people generally, who want to crack into the data science field, but specifically, women, who have clearly, are underrepresented in technology? >> Yeah, so, I think the, I think we're starting to see more and more women enter the field, again it's one of those, people know it, and so there's less of a-- because people are aware of it, there's more tendency to be more inclusive. But I definitely think, just go for it, right? I mean if it's something you're interested in, and you want to try it out, go to a coding camp, and take a science class, and there's so many online resources now, I mean there's, the massive online courses that you can take. So, even if you're hesitant about it, there are ways you can kind of be at home, and try it out, and see if that's the right thing for you. >> Just dip your toe in the water. >> Yes, exactly, exactly! Try it out and see, and then just decide if that's the right thing for you, but I think there's a lot of different ways to sort of check it out. Again, you can take a course, you can actually get a degree, there's a wide range of things that you can do to kind of experiment with it, and then find out if that's right for you. >> And if you're not happy with the hiring opportunities out there, just start a company, that's my advice. >> That's right. (laughing together) >> Agreed, I definitely agree! >> We thank you-- we appreciate the time, and great advice, too. >> Thank you so much. >> Leigh Martin joining us here at Inforum 18, we are live in Washington, D.C., you're watching the exclusive coverage, right here, on theCUBE. (bubbly music)

(vibrant orchestral music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burns and welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our beautiful studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm actually very excited about today's conversation because we'll be talking about the potential of human beings, of people within organizations, given this tumultuous change in this digital transformation. And to help talk about some of these crucial issues we've got, Emily He from, who is senior vice president of HCM Cloud marketing from Oracle. Emily, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> So let's just jump right into it. Let's start by, I mean Oracle's got to interesting approach. Cloud a customer, the idea of bringing the Cloud or forming applications into Cloud services. So why don't we start, what is going on with HCM Cloud at Oracle? >> You said exactly the right thing: which is, we have a very unique approach to the cloud. So we spent the last few years completely rewriting our HCM application for the Cloud. And when I think about 11 years ago when iPhone first came into being, a lot of the HR, HCM vendors rushed to embrace the mobile interface because they think that's the panacea for user adoption. As long as HR software as existed, we've always had issues with user adoptions. The early Cloud vendors really just moved their applications to the Cloud and their focus is to simplify the user interfaces by delivering this modern user experience. The problem is, that didn't really solve the fundamental user adoption problem. There data quality issues, data security issues. The work flow was cumbersome and the user interface wasn't friendly enough, right? So when Oracle started rewriting the Cloud a few years back, we took a very different approach because we already had hundreds of thousands of customers. And they had real business problems. They had complex business problems. So we're asking fundamentally very different questions. The questions we're asking is: How can we use the Cloud, and move our customers data to the Cloud by allowing them to manage the data autonomously? So we can insure data quality, data security. And how can we make the work flow so flexible that they can adjust their business processes to meet the ever changing market conditions. And lastly, how can we push our user experience to the next frontier by embracing Chatbot, voice UI, AI and deliver that really human experience. And that's exactly what we have in Oracle HCM Cloud. We have the Auntie Anne solution, and we're doing really interesting things to push the user experience to the new frontier. >> Well, that's one of the reasons why I'm so fascinated by this topic is 'cause in many respects, as you said, HCM used to be just a set of HR processes: pay roll, hiring, separating. There was just a set of processes you had to do to comply with local employment laws. >> Exactly. >> But now we're talking about using technology to do much more, to actually mediate the activities of human beings in more complex ways, incorporating a different ways of thinking about incentives so that human facing systems, supported by AI, augmented by AI allow this incredible resource, that exist with most organizations to be more productive, more fulfilled, happier and ultimately a better resource to customers. Have I got that right? >> That's such a great point. And that's why I'm so excited about the possibility AI brings to the world of business applications. If you think back on the way we approach applications in the past, we architected business processes and we used technology to deliver to those business processes. So it's an input based system and a predictable output will come out. With AI, now you have all these data from different sources and you can get insight from the data, but more importantly, the system is now suggesting actions, it's suggesting decisions, and human beings can use those insight to create more solutions. And we're also in a situation where potentially robots are working alongside humans. So what is the definition of workforce anymore? Do we include machines in our workforce management solutions and how do we think about that? And I'm personally fascinated by the possibility of having machines augment human tasks and look at the world in a completely different way. >> Well, I think you brought up this interesting point earlier, this essential point earlier that there's been an adoption problem associated with some of these complex people-oriented applications. It might very well be that as we rethink these applications and we focus more on how AI and other types of things can augment the way people work. Because a lot of employees are saying, wait a minute, I'm not process driven. I have a set of responsibilities. I have some agency within this business to serve customers. So how can we bring together those things so that the people can do what they're suppose to do. It might actually increase the likelihood that these HCM applications get adopted. Whaddya think? >> Yah, exactly. If you think about the way we're using enterprise software now, it's actually not very natural, fun or human. Every time you go through the same process, you fill out the form and some outcome will come out. Now I don't think anyone is thrilled to come to work and use enterprise software application. It's almost like you have a coworker and every time you see him, you're having the same conversation. What's your name, what's your address, what's your phone number, right? And in contrast, the way people are engaging with consumer technology is totally different. I use Siri, and I use Google Maps to navigate my traffic. And my kids have hour long conversations with Alexa. Telling jokes and ask science questions. My son is getting Siri to do his homework, math homework, which is very distressing for me. But that's a different conversation all together. And I think that's the way humans want you engaged with enterprise technology. It's already happening, so it's really our collective work, organizations responsibility to bring that type of technology to work, but like you said, there are many open questions we have to answer. >> And not the least of which, it's just not mediate, having an interaction with a machine. But also having conversations and having machinery be able to pick that up. Be able to turn that into subsequent tasks and actions so that human beings are spending more time on the creative side. And I know you have some great examples of this. Companies that are rethinking, so how they go from a human being attended to a customer problem and how that person, perhaps far away from a normal IT process, can actually quickly translate that into something that can scale within the business. >> Yeah, exactly. Yesterday, I think I mentioned this to you before, I was listening to a podcast about how Airbnb is architecting their customer experience and the way they do it is when they think about their ideal customer experience, they have one customer in mind and they really focus on re-imagining how they can deliver this wow experience, but once they nail the experience, then they got good feedback from the customer. They use machines to scale that to millions of customers. And I think that's going to be the way people want to work in the future. Human beings are uniquely good at being creative, problem solving and that's what they enjoy doing. So if we can have them focus on those tasks and have the machines help us scale things that we know will work and use them to get insight to further fine tune the experience, that'll be such a better way to work. >> I totally agree and I think that one of the important derivatives of that is the idea that increasingly we're talking about more collaboration, recognizing and amplifying the strengths of individuals and bringing them into a work force so that everybody is more confident, more comfortable and capable of working together. Certainly that's something HCM wants to do. But it also creates a new question and we spent a lot of time on theCUBE working with executives, like yourself, talking about this. How are we going to incorporate additional diversity into the workforce with an attacking with other worlds, how do you see this whole process coming together? So technology can make it easier, can liberate the potential of a lot of diverse people within a workforce. Yah, I am a huge believer in diversity. I think diversity is good for the workforce and I personally spend a lot of time promoting diversity in the leadership rank. And there are a couple of things: One is, we definitely can use software to foster more diversity in the work place. For example, if we use software to screen resumes, we can eliminate some of the demographic data to reduce bias and the software also has the ability to, for example, help us identify the ideal candidate from looking at our existing employees and come up with the right criteria, so we can get the right candidates on board. But I also think, in this new world we still have more work to do to psychologically set ourselves up for leadership positions. And I talk to a lot of women and this is the advice I usually give them: The first thing is, this applies to both men and women. You need to, really be conscious of the kind of the personal brand you're building and when I talk about personal brand, I don't mean that you go on Twitter and tweet about your personal life and tweet sheer content. It's really about being conscious about the value you are trying to exhibit at work and use your day to day actions to demonstrate those values, and that will help you create a reputation that will have a stronger impact on your career than anything else. The other thing I notice about women is, the strength for women is, women are naturally empathetic so we're very collaborative, we want to help each other, but at the same time, sometimes that can hold us back because you don't want to hurt other people's feelings by stepping forward and taking on leadership position. And men are usually much better at raising their hands and saying, "I'm ready for this position." So I think women can learn from men, and the way to do it is something I call Micro Bravery. And that is, I believe courage is a muscle you can exercise. The more you use it, the better you'll be at it and if everyday you can push yourself to do something that you're uncomfortable with, maybe it's giving someone performance feedback or maybe it's standing up and presenting, maybe it's coming here and having a conversation with you on tv. The more you do that, the more you are going to take risks and the more comfortable you will be in stepping into those leadership positions. The other thing that I noticed about a lot of women is when they have a family, they hesitate to take leadership positions. Because they think they're part is now the family and they can't do both. I firmly believe we can do both. As a matter of fact, I think being a parent makes you a really good leader because there's so many lessons you can learn from being a parent. One of the things I find helpful is, now that I have children, every time I make a tough decision I always ask myself: If I make this decision and I tell my kids, would they proud of me? If they told me, they make this decision would I be proud of them. So it kind of help you bring humanity to work and really strengthen your moral compass. So those are things I usually tell women to be more effective at work place and hopefully they, more women will assume the leadership roles. >> I love hearing that in theCUBE. So just to quickly summarize. We've talked about how women in particular, but overall, we're going to get an increasingly diverse workforce that's going to be applied to increasingly complex problems and the powerful role that software can play if it's set up right to facilitate collaboration, facilitate interaction, augment the human experience, so we can do more, do more productively, make everyone more happy. >> Exactly, I couldn't have said it better. >> Emily He, the senior vice president of marketing at Oracle HCM. Thank you very much for being on theCube. >> Thank you so much for having me. (dramatic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube! Covering Grace Hopper's celebration of women in computing, brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. (upbeat techno music) >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of the Grace Hopper conference, here in Orlando. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Jeff Rick. We're joined by Erin Yang. She is the VP of Technology Product Management for Workday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Of course, thank you for having me. >> So tell us a little bit about what you do at Workday and what are the most exciting projects you're working on right now? >> All right, so I lead up our Technology Product Management team at Workday, and so for those of you who might not have heard of Workday, we are a leading cloud provider for financial management, human capital management, analytical applications. Been around since 2005, I've been there for the last six years and I would say the technology is such an exciting part of the company and one of the things that really drew me there so a lot of people don't the original story around workday but when we started we had this amazing mix of really experienced leaders who had been in the enterprise space before, who had built a lot of these products before. Combined with cloud technologies, just taking off and no one had really done the HCM and the cloud before financials in the cloud and so they were able to completely start over, we like to say with a clean sheet of paper, with new technologies but having experience in the industry and build from there. So we have a single technology platform that powers all of our different applications and that's the part of the company that I sit on. >> So you're really in the core technology that's driving the application. Desired technology NOD, ATM or one of the other sets. >> So the things that my team really looks after are security, integration, our infrastructure, the common data model and the common work flow that goes across the different applications. And the fact that we can have a single platform that connects all the applications, makes it so much easier for our customers and that's really been the philosophy of the company, which is customers first. We really focus on making our customers happy and so one of our company goals is always hitting 95% customer satisfaction, which is really unheard of in the enterprise industry when most people are not super happy with those products. And we've been able to hit 97% in the last year that we did the surveys. >> It's an interesting part of the SAS model because unlike a traditional enterprise software sale, they make the sale, they collect the 15%. But you're getting paid monthly I assume and maybe it's an annual contract. So you have to keep delivering value each and every single month cause you don't have this long term, big giant, enterprise license. >> It's a subscription revenue model. It's no more of a you deliver a product, then you don't think about it anymore. It's a continuous partnership with our customers. And I think that's why the relationship matters so much with our customers, they're stuck with us to a certain extent and we want to make sure that they're happy, that they're getting the value that they wanted out of the product and then we can also grow with them. And so one of the interesting parts of our technology is that we actually abstract the application and business logic from the technology itself through a meta data language that we've built out internally. And so we've been able to swap out our persistence technology, change the way that we store data, scale our transactions without our customers even knowing it. So that's kind of one of the beautiful parts of the way that our architecture was designed. >> So it's the architecture but then what else are you doing to hit that 97%. The key is empathizing with your customer. >> We spend a lot of time with our customers, that's one of the big points, almost every single product, every single feature that we build has a design partner program where we literally are with our customers, understanding what their pain points are and figuring out how can we solve those pain points in the product. And on the fact that we're pure SAS, so we just have one version that every customer has. So if we're improving the product for one customer, we're improving it for all of our customers. And so we're able to just focus on that single version instead of splitting our attention across old versions and maintaining old systems. >> So shifting gears a little bit to Grace Hopper specifically. You talked about, before we turned on the cameras that Workday made a big investment in Grace Hopper this year and you brought a huge contingent of people. I think its interesting and I think a lot of people know that there's a lot of hiring that goes on. I don't know that everyone knows as a development opportunity where companies bring large contingents. I wonder if you can speak to one. What is the value that you guys made this investment in this show around people that already work for Workday. >> So ultimately we're here because at Workday, we really believe in diversity, being good for our business, being good for our people. It helps us make better decisions, helps us build better products, we're more creative and it helps the bottom line. I think there's a lot of research out there now. And so at Grace Hopper we think this is the best way because it's such a big event to improve all aspects of the talent pipeline. So it's not just the hiring coming in from college, which we are definitely doing but it's also bringing, we have over 130 employees who came here from Workday and all walks in their careers. So some newer more junior people and some more experienced people. And we really think that the networking that they can do here, the sessions that they can come to to do professional development and learn. One of our sessions is how to get out of that middle management quagmire. How do they continue moving up and forward in their careers. It's not just that entry point into that junior entry level position. >> So what an investment. Outside of your own event, I would imagine that's probably the biggest presence you have at any tech event. >> I think it is, I haven't heard of us having more than 130 people at any other event. And it's a big investment especially because our big customer conference is next week. (laughs) We're all busy with that but this is a important enough event for us, both for college recruiting, both for professional developments and for, like I said, building that network even within the women who are here at Workday because we're a bigger company now and this is a good opportunity for us all to strengthen those relationships and we have eight employees who are speaking in sessions and that's a great experience as well. To get up on stage, to build your presence, learn how to speak and communicate and challenge yourself in that way. >> What would you say has been the biggest challenges in your career and your someone who grew up in the bay area, went to the same high school Steve Jobs, Stanford graduate, working in this industry for a while now. What would you say you've learned along the way in terms of overcoming challenges. >> I would say I've had a lot of opportunities growing up and I would say some of the biggest challenges though are the impressions that people might have of you that you need to overcome >> Okay interesting. >> And so for me it's like, first you start off as a female and so people think you might be leaning towards certain areas and so starting from when I was young I got a rush out of defying expectations that people had of me and maybe that's how I have ended up to where I am today. But I like to surprise people but some people don't like that and so I can see that being a challenge for some women if they're saying I really like math and technology and science and if it gets them odd looks or even just a lack of support, they might, start backing off and start thinking they may be better suited for something else. But for me I actually really liked the challenge, it made me more excited to overcome that and say hey, I can be a woman, I want to surprise more people, I want to get into Stanford and do electrical engineering cause that's not going to be the expected path that others have of me and I want to show that I can do it. And it's been really nice to see more and more female role models who have stories like that. Because then you start making it the norm so that if someone really is hesitant on whether they should or shouldn't be going down that path if they see other women who've been strong and achieved many things that they were able to do that. >> Before the cameras were rolling, you were also talking about your experience at Workday and mentorships and the sponsors that you've received. Can you tell our viewers a little bit more about your experience. >> I think that's been a big part of my journey at Workday. I started off as the product manager for our collaboration team. It was my first time doing product management only six years ago and my manager at that time, he really believed in me and combine that with the fact that we're at a fast growing company we were only 900 people at that point. I told you we're over 7000 now, lots of opportunities were coming up. He was able to say, there's this other opportunity around our extensibility area, which was totally unrelated to collaboration but he's like, you've down well with what I gave you over here, why don't you try this? And it was not something I would personally volunteer for cause I actually didn't think that I was capable of doing it. But he's like, no, I believe in you, I think you can do it, I've already advocated for you that you should take on this role. And so I stepped into it, did a good enough job for them to say, okay we're going to keep investing in her. And that manager continued to really put me forward for other opportunities and then when he switched roles he nominated me to be his successor for leading the whole team and so he's been a really major part of my career progression here at Workday and I think having someone who can be there to advocate for opportunities for you, and also teach you how to navigate and organization, who are the key decision makers, who do you need to influence, what are the relationships you need to build. All of that is such valuable knowledge to have that you may not know otherwise. A mentor might not even be able to do that for you but someone who's really sponsoring you can. >> Well Erin thanks so much for joining us here in the cube, its been great talking to you. >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff Rick, we will have more from Grace Hopper just after this. (upbeat techno music)