>> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The unraveling of market enthusiasm continued in Q4 of 2022 with the earnings reports from the US hyperscalers, the big three now all in. As we said earlier this year, even the cloud is an immune from the macro headwinds and the cracks in the armor that we saw from the data that we shared last summer, they're playing out into 2023. For the most part actuals are disappointing beyond expectations including our own. It turns out that our estimates for the big three hyperscaler's revenue missed by 1.2 billion or 2.7% lower than we had forecast from even our most recent November estimates. And we expect continued decelerating growth rates for the hyperscalers through the summer of 2023 and we don't think that's going to abate until comparisons get easier. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we share our view of what's happening in cloud markets not just for the hyperscalers but other firms that have hitched a ride on the cloud. And we'll share new ETR data that shows why these trends are playing out tactics that customers are employing to deal with their cost challenges and how long the pain is likely to last. You know, riding the cloud wave, it's a two-edged sword. Let's look at the players that have gone all in on or are exposed to both the positive and negative trends of cloud. Look the cloud has been a huge tailwind for so many companies like Snowflake and Databricks, Workday, Salesforce, Mongo's move with Atlas, Red Hats Cloud strategy with OpenShift and so forth. And you know, the flip side is because cloud is elastic what comes up can also go down very easily. Here's an XY graphic from ETR that shows spending momentum or net score on the vertical axis and market presence in the dataset on the horizontal axis provision or called overlap. This is data from the January 2023 survey and that the red dotted lines show the positions of several companies that we've highlighted going back to January 2021. So let's unpack this for a bit starting with the big three hyperscalers. The first point is AWS and Azure continue to solidify their moat relative to Google Cloud platform. And we're going to get into this in a moment, but Azure and AWS revenues are five to six times that of GCP for IaaS. And at those deltas, Google should be gaining ground much faster than the big two. The second point on Google is notice the red line on GCP relative to its starting point. While it appears to be gaining ground on the horizontal axis, its net score is now below that of AWS and Azure in the survey. So despite its significantly smaller size it's just not keeping pace with the leaders in terms of market momentum. Now looking at AWS and Microsoft, what we see is basically AWS is holding serve. As we know both Google and Microsoft benefit from including SaaS in their cloud numbers. So the fact that AWS hasn't seen a huge downward momentum relative to a January 2021 position is one positive in the data. And both companies are well above that magic 40% line on the Y-axis, anything above 40% we consider to be highly elevated. But the fact remains that they're down as are most of the names on this chart. So let's take a closer look. I want to start with Snowflake and Databricks. Snowflake, as we reported from several quarters back came down to Earth, it was up in the 80% range in the Y-axis here. And it's still highly elevated in the 60% range and it continues to move to the right, which is positive but as we'll address in a moment it's customers can dial down consumption just as in any cloud. Now, Databricks is really interesting. It's not a public company, it never made it to IPO during the sort of tech bubble. So we don't have the same level of transparency that we do with other companies that did make it through. But look at how much more prominent it is on the X-axis relative to January 2021. And it's net score is basically held up over that period of time. So that's a real positive for Databricks. Next, look at Workday and Salesforce. They've held up relatively well, both inching to the right and generally holding their net scores. Same from Mongo, which is the brown dot above its name that says Elastic, it says a little gets a little crowded which Elastic's actually the blue dot above it. But generally, SaaS is harder to dial down, Workday, Salesforce, Oracles, SaaS and others. So it's harder to dial down because commitments have been made in advance, they're kind of locked in. Now, one of the discussions from last summer was as Mongo, less discretionary than analytics i.e. Snowflake. And it's an interesting debate but maybe Snowflake customers, you know, they're also generally committed to a dollar amount. So over time the spending is going to be there. But in the short term, yeah maybe Snowflake customers can dial down. Now that highlighted dotted red line, that bolded one is Datadog and you can see it's made major strides on the X-axis but its net score has decelerated quite dramatically. Openshift's momentum in the survey has dropped although IBM just announced that OpenShift has a a billion dollar ARR and I suspect what's happening there is IBM consulting is bundling OpenShift into its modernization projects. It's got a, that sort of captive base if you will. And as such it's probably not as top of mind to the respondents but I'll bet you the developers are certainly aware of it. Now the other really notable call out here is CloudFlare, We've reported on them earlier. Cloudflare's net score has held up really well since January of 2021. It really hasn't seen the downdraft of some of these others, but it's making major major moves to the right gaining market presence. We really like how CloudFlare is performing. And the last comment is on Oracle which as you can see, despite its much, much lower net score continues to gain ground in the market and thrive from a profitability standpoint. But the data pretty clearly shows that there's a downdraft in the market. Okay, so what's happening here? Let's dig deeper into this data. Here's a graphic from the most recent ETR drill down asking customers that said they were going to cut spending what technique they're using to do so. Now, as we've previously reported, consolidating redundant vendors is by far the most cited approach but there's two key points we want to make here. One is reducing excess cloud resources. As you can see in the bars is the second most cited technique and it's up from the previous polling period. The second we're not showing, you know directly but we've got some red call outs there. Reducing cloud costs jumps to 29% and 28% respectively in financial services and tech telco. And it's much closer to second. It's basically neck and neck with consolidating redundant vendors in those two industries. So they're being really aggressive about optimizing cloud cost. Okay, so as we said, cloud is great 'cause you can dial it up but it's just as easy to dial down. We've identified six factors that customers tell us are affecting their cloud consumption and there are probably more, if you got more we'd love to hear them but these are the ones that are fairly prominent that have hit our radar. First, rising mortgage rates mean banks are processing fewer loans means less cloud. The crypto crash means less trading activity and that means less cloud resources. Third lower ad spend has led companies to reduce not only you know, their ad buying but also their frequency of running their analytics and their calculations. And they're also often using less data, maybe compressing the timeframe of the corpus down to a shorter time period. Also very prominent is down to the bottom left, using lower cost compute instances. For example, Graviton from AWS or AMD chips and tiering storage to cheaper S3 or deep archived tiers. And finally, optimizing based on better pricing plans. So customers are moving from, you know, smaller companies in particular moving maybe from on demand or other larger companies that are experimenting using on demand or they're moving to spot pricing or reserved instances or optimized savings plans. That all lowers cost and that means less cloud resource consumption and less cloud revenue. Now in the days when everything was on prem CFOs, what would they do? They would freeze CapEx and IT Pros would have to try to do more with less and often that meant a lot of manual tasks. With the cloud it's much easier to move things around. It still takes some thinking and some effort but it's dramatically simpler to do so. So you can get those savings a lot faster. Now of course the other huge factor is you can cut or you can freeze. And this graphic shows data from a recent ETR survey with 159 respondents and you can see the meaningful uptick in hiring freezes, freezing new IT deployments and layoffs. And as we've been reporting, this has been trending up since earlier last year. And note the call out, this is especially prominent in retail sectors, all three of these techniques jump up in retail and that's a bit of a concern because oftentimes consumer spending helps the economy make a softer landing out of a pullback. But this is a potential canary in the coal mine. If retail firms are pulling back it's because consumers aren't spending as much. And so we're keeping a close eye on that. So let's boil this down to the market data and what this all means. So in this graphic we show our estimates for Q4 IaaS revenues compared to the "actual" IaaS revenues. And we say quote because AWS is the only one that reports, you know clean revenue and IaaS, Azure and GCP don't report actuals. Why would they? Because it would make them look even, you know smaller relative to AWS. Rather, they bury the figures in overall cloud which includes their, you know G-Suite for Google and all the Microsoft SaaS. And then they give us little tidbits about in Microsoft's case, Azure, they give growth rates. Google gives kind of relative growth of GCP. So, and we use survey data and you know, other data to try to really pinpoint and we've been covering this for, I don't know, five or six years ever since the cloud really became a thing. But looking at the data, we had AWS growing at 25% this quarter and it came in at 20%. So a significant decline relative to our expectations. AWS announced that it exited December, actually, sorry it's January data showed about a 15% mid-teens growth rate. So that's, you know, something we're watching. Azure was two points off our forecast coming in at 38% growth. It said it exited December in the 35% growth range and it said that it's expecting five points of deceleration off of that. So think 30% for Azure. GCP came in three points off our expectation coming in 35% and Alibaba has yet to report but we've shaved a bid off that forecast based on some survey data and you know what maybe 9% is even still not enough. Now for the year, the big four hyperscalers generated almost 160 billion of revenue, but that was 7 billion lower than what what we expected coming into 2022. For 2023, we're expecting 21% growth for a total of 193.3 billion. And while it's, you know, lower, you know, significantly lower than historical expectations it's still four to five times the overall spending forecast that we just shared with you in our predictions post of between 4 and 5% for the overall market. We think AWS is going to come in in around 93 billion this year with Azure closing in at over 71 billion. This is, again, we're talking IaaS here. Now, despite Amazon focusing investors on the fact that AWS's absolute dollar growth is still larger than its competitors. By our estimates Azure will come in at more than 75% of AWS's forecasted revenue. That's a significant milestone. AWS is operating margins by the way declined significantly this past quarter, dropping from 30% of revenue to 24%, 30% the year earlier to 24%. Now that's still extremely healthy and we've seen wild fluctuations like this before so I don't get too freaked out about that. But I'll say this, Microsoft has a marginal cost advantage relative to AWS because one, it has a captive cloud on which to run its massive software estate. So it can just throw software at its own cloud and two software marginal costs. Marginal economics despite AWS's awesomeness in high degrees of automation, software is just a better business. Now the upshot for AWS is the ecosystem. AWS is essentially in our view positioning very smartly as a platform for data partners like Snowflake and Databricks, security partners like CrowdStrike and Okta and Palo Alto and many others and SaaS companies. You know, Microsoft is more competitive even though AWS does have competitive products. Now of course Amazon's competitive to retail companies so that's another factor but generally speaking for tech players, Amazon is a really thriving ecosystem that is a secret weapon in our view. AWS happy to spin the meter with its partners even though it sells competitive products, you know, more so in our view than other cloud players. Microsoft, of course is, don't forget is hyping now, we're hearing a lot OpenAI and ChatGPT we reported last week in our predictions post. How OpenAI is shot up in terms of market sentiment in ETR's emerging technology company surveys and people are moving to Azure to get OpenAI and get ChatGPT that is a an interesting lever. Amazon in our view has to have a response. They have lots of AI and they're going to have to make some moves there. Meanwhile, Google is emphasizing itself as an AI first company. In fact, Google spent at least five minutes of continuous dialogue, nonstop on its AI chops during its latest earnings call. So that's an area that we're watching very closely as the buzz around large language models continues. All right, let's wrap up with some assumptions for 2023. We think SaaS players are going to continue to be sticky. They're going to be somewhat insulated from all these downdrafts because they're so tied in and customers, you know they make the commitment up front, you've got the lock in. Now having said that, we do expect some backlash over time on the onerous and generally customer unfriendly pricing models of most large SaaS companies. But that's going to play out over a longer period of time. Now for cloud generally and the hyperscalers specifically we do expect accelerating growth rates into Q3 but the amplitude of the demand swings from this rubber band economy, we expect to continue to compress and become more predictable throughout the year. Estimates are coming down, CEOs we think are going to be more cautious when the market snaps back more cautious about hiring and spending and as such a perhaps we expect a more orderly return to growth which we think will slightly accelerate in Q4 as comps get easier. Now of course the big risk to these scenarios is of course the economy, the FED, consumer spending, inflation, supply chain, energy prices, wars, geopolitics, China relations, you know, all the usual stuff. But as always with our partners at ETR and the Cube community, we're here for you. We have the data and we'll be the first to report when we see a change at the margin. Okay, that's a wrap for today. I want to thank Alex Morrison who's on production and manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our Boston studio getting this up on LinkedIn Live. Thank you for that. Kristen Martin also and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our Editor-in-Chief over at siliconangle.com. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com, at siliconangle.com where you can see all the data and you want to get in touch. Just all you can do is email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante if you if you got something interesting, I'll respond. If you don't, it's either 'cause I'm swamped or it's just not tickling me. You can comment on our LinkedIn post as well. And please check out ETR.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, this is Dave Valente with theCUBE, and one of the most gratifying aspects of my role as a host of "theCUBE TV" is I get to cover a wide range of topics. And quite often, we're able to bring to our program a level of expertise that allows us to more deeply explore and unpack some of the topics that we cover throughout the year. And one of our favorite topics, of course, is data. Now, in 2021, after being in isolation for the better part of two years, a group of industry analysts met up at AWS re:Invent and started a collaboration to look at the trends in data and predict what some likely outcomes will be for the coming year. And it resulted in a very popular session that we had last year focused on the future of data management. And I'm very excited and pleased to tell you that the 2023 edition of that predictions episode is back, and with me are five outstanding market analyst, Sanjeev Mohan of SanjMo, Tony Baer of dbInsight, Carl Olofson from IDC, Dave Menninger from Ventana Research, and Doug Henschen, VP and Principal Analyst at Constellation Research. Now, what is it that we're calling you, guys? A data pack like the rat pack? No, no, no, no, that's not it. It's the data crowd, the data crowd, and the crowd includes some of the best minds in the data analyst community. They'll discuss how data management is evolving and what listeners should prepare for in 2023. Guys, welcome back. Great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. (Tony and Dave faintly speaks) >> All right, before we get into 2023 predictions, we thought it'd be good to do a look back at how we did in 2022 and give a transparent assessment of those predictions. So, let's get right into it. We're going to bring these up here, the predictions from 2022, they're color-coded red, yellow, and green to signify the degree of accuracy. And I'm pleased to report there's no red. Well, maybe some of you will want to debate that grading system. But as always, we want to be open, so you can decide for yourselves. So, we're going to ask each analyst to review their 2022 prediction and explain their rating and what evidence they have that led them to their conclusion. So, Sanjeev, please kick it off. Your prediction was data governance becomes key. I know that's going to knock you guys over, but elaborate, because you had more detail when you double click on that. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Dave, for having us on the show today. And we self-graded ourselves. I could have very easily made my prediction from last year green, but I mentioned why I left it as yellow. I totally fully believe that data governance was in a renaissance in 2022. And why do I say that? You have to look no further than AWS launching its own data catalog called DataZone. Before that, mid-year, we saw Unity Catalog from Databricks went GA. So, overall, I saw there was tremendous movement. When you see these big players launching a new data catalog, you know that they want to be in this space. And this space is highly critical to everything that I feel we will talk about in today's call. Also, if you look at established players, I spoke at Collibra's conference, data.world, work closely with Alation, Informatica, a bunch of other companies, they all added tremendous new capabilities. So, it did become key. The reason I left it as yellow is because I had made a prediction that Collibra would go IPO, and it did not. And I don't think anyone is going IPO right now. The market is really, really down, the funding in VC IPO market. But other than that, data governance had a banner year in 2022. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And of course, you saw data clean rooms being announced at AWS re:Invent, so more evidence. And I like how the fact that you included in your predictions some things that were binary, so you dinged yourself there. So, good job. Okay, Tony Baer, you're up next. Data mesh hits reality check. As you see here, you've given yourself a bright green thumbs up. (Tony laughing) Okay. Let's hear why you feel that was the case. What do you mean by reality check? >> Okay. Thanks, Dave, for having us back again. This is something I just wrote and just tried to get away from, and this just a topic just won't go away. I did speak with a number of folks, early adopters and non-adopters during the year. And I did find that basically that it pretty much validated what I was expecting, which was that there was a lot more, this has now become a front burner issue. And if I had any doubt in my mind, the evidence I would point to is what was originally intended to be a throwaway post on LinkedIn, which I just quickly scribbled down the night before leaving for re:Invent. I was packing at the time, and for some reason, I was doing Google search on data mesh. And I happened to have tripped across this ridiculous article, I will not say where, because it doesn't deserve any publicity, about the eight (Dave laughing) best data mesh software companies of 2022. (Tony laughing) One of my predictions was that you'd see data mesh washing. And I just quickly just hopped on that maybe three sentences and wrote it at about a couple minutes saying this is hogwash, essentially. (laughs) And that just reun... And then, I left for re:Invent. And the next night, when I got into my Vegas hotel room, I clicked on my computer. I saw a 15,000 hits on that post, which was the most hits of any single post I put all year. And the responses were wildly pro and con. So, it pretty much validates my expectation in that data mesh really did hit a lot more scrutiny over this past year. >> Yeah, thank you for that. I remember that article. I remember rolling my eyes when I saw it, and then I recently, (Tony laughing) I talked to Walmart and they actually invoked Martin Fowler and they said that they're working through their data mesh. So, it takes a really lot of thought, and it really, as we've talked about, is really as much an organizational construct. You're not buying data mesh >> Bingo. >> to your point. Okay. Thank you, Tony. Carl Olofson, here we go. You've graded yourself a yellow in the prediction of graph databases. Take off. Please elaborate. >> Yeah, sure. So, I realized in looking at the prediction that it seemed to imply that graph databases could be a major factor in the data world in 2022, which obviously didn't become the case. It was an error on my part in that I should have said it in the right context. It's really a three to five-year time period that graph databases will really become significant, because they still need accepted methodologies that can be applied in a business context as well as proper tools in order for people to be able to use them seriously. But I stand by the idea that it is taking off, because for one thing, Neo4j, which is the leading independent graph database provider, had a very good year. And also, we're seeing interesting developments in terms of things like AWS with Neptune and with Oracle providing graph support in Oracle database this past year. Those things are, as I said, growing gradually. There are other companies like TigerGraph and so forth, that deserve watching as well. But as far as becoming mainstream, it's going to be a few years before we get all the elements together to make that happen. Like any new technology, you have to create an environment in which ordinary people without a whole ton of technical training can actually apply the technology to solve business problems. >> Yeah, thank you for that. These specialized databases, graph databases, time series databases, you see them embedded into mainstream data platforms, but there's a place for these specialized databases, I would suspect we're going to see new types of databases emerge with all this cloud sprawl that we have and maybe to the edge. >> Well, part of it is that it's not as specialized as you might think it. You can apply graphs to great many workloads and use cases. It's just that people have yet to fully explore and discover what those are. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's going to be a process. (laughs) >> All right, Dave Menninger, streaming data permeates the landscape. You gave yourself a yellow. Why? >> Well, I couldn't think of a appropriate combination of yellow and green. Maybe I should have used chartreuse, (Dave laughing) but I was probably a little hard on myself making it yellow. This is another type of specialized data processing like Carl was talking about graph databases is a stream processing, and nearly every data platform offers streaming capabilities now. Often, it's based on Kafka. If you look at Confluent, their revenues have grown at more than 50%, continue to grow at more than 50% a year. They're expected to do more than half a billion dollars in revenue this year. But the thing that hasn't happened yet, and to be honest, they didn't necessarily expect it to happen in one year, is that streaming hasn't become the default way in which we deal with data. It's still a sidecar to data at rest. And I do expect that we'll continue to see streaming become more and more mainstream. I do expect perhaps in the five-year timeframe that we will first deal with data as streaming and then at rest, but the worlds are starting to merge. And we even see some vendors bringing products to market, such as K2View, Hazelcast, and RisingWave Labs. So, in addition to all those core data platform vendors adding these capabilities, there are new vendors approaching this market as well. >> I like the tough grading system, and it's not trivial. And when you talk to practitioners doing this stuff, there's still some complications in the data pipeline. And so, but I think, you're right, it probably was a yellow plus. Doug Henschen, data lakehouses will emerge as dominant. When you talk to people about lakehouses, practitioners, they all use that term. They certainly use the term data lake, but now, they're using lakehouse more and more. What's your thoughts on here? Why the green? What's your evidence there? >> Well, I think, I was accurate. I spoke about it specifically as something that vendors would be pursuing. And we saw yet more lakehouse advocacy in 2022. Google introduced its BigLake service alongside BigQuery. Salesforce introduced Genie, which is really a lakehouse architecture. And it was a safe prediction to say vendors are going to be pursuing this in that AWS, Cloudera, Databricks, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Salesforce now, IBM, all advocate this idea of a single platform for all of your data. Now, the trend was also supported in 2023, in that we saw a big embrace of Apache Iceberg in 2022. That's a structured table format. It's used with these lakehouse platforms. It's open, so it ensures portability and it also ensures performance. And that's a structured table that helps with the warehouse side performance. But among those announcements, Snowflake, Google, Cloud Era, SAP, Salesforce, IBM, all embraced Iceberg. But keep in mind, again, I'm talking about this as something that vendors are pursuing as their approach. So, they're advocating end users. It's very cutting edge. I'd say the top, leading edge, 5% of of companies have really embraced the lakehouse. I think, we're now seeing the fast followers, the next 20 to 25% of firms embracing this idea and embracing a lakehouse architecture. I recall Christian Kleinerman at the big Snowflake event last summer, making the announcement about Iceberg, and he asked for a show of hands for any of you in the audience at the keynote, have you heard of Iceberg? And just a smattering of hands went up. So, the vendors are ahead of the curve. They're pushing this trend, and we're now seeing a little bit more mainstream uptake. >> Good. Doug, I was there. It was you, me, and I think, two other hands were up. That was just humorous. (Doug laughing) All right, well, so I liked the fact that we had some yellow and some green. When you think about these things, there's the prediction itself. Did it come true or not? There are the sub predictions that you guys make, and of course, the degree of difficulty. So, thank you for that open assessment. All right, let's get into the 2023 predictions. Let's bring up the predictions. Sanjeev, you're going first. You've got a prediction around unified metadata. What's the prediction, please? >> So, my prediction is that metadata space is currently a mess. It needs to get unified. There are too many use cases of metadata, which are being addressed by disparate systems. For example, data quality has become really big in the last couple of years, data observability, the whole catalog space is actually, people don't like to use the word data catalog anymore, because data catalog sounds like it's a catalog, a museum, if you may, of metadata that you go and admire. So, what I'm saying is that in 2023, we will see that metadata will become the driving force behind things like data ops, things like orchestration of tasks using metadata, not rules. Not saying that if this fails, then do this, if this succeeds, go do that. But it's like getting to the metadata level, and then making a decision as to what to orchestrate, what to automate, how to do data quality check, data observability. So, this space is starting to gel, and I see there'll be more maturation in the metadata space. Even security privacy, some of these topics, which are handled separately. And I'm just talking about data security and data privacy. I'm not talking about infrastructure security. These also need to merge into a unified metadata management piece with some knowledge graph, semantic layer on top, so you can do analytics on it. So, it's no longer something that sits on the side, it's limited in its scope. It is actually the very engine, the very glue that is going to connect data producers and consumers. >> Great. Thank you for that. Doug. Doug Henschen, any thoughts on what Sanjeev just said? Do you agree? Do you disagree? >> Well, I agree with many aspects of what he says. I think, there's a huge opportunity for consolidation and streamlining of these as aspects of governance. Last year, Sanjeev, you said something like, we'll see more people using catalogs than BI. And I have to disagree. I don't think this is a category that's headed for mainstream adoption. It's a behind the scenes activity for the wonky few, or better yet, companies want machine learning and automation to take care of these messy details. We've seen these waves of management technologies, some of the latest data observability, customer data platform, but they failed to sweep away all the earlier investments in data quality and master data management. So, yes, I hope the latest tech offers, glimmers that there's going to be a better, cleaner way of addressing these things. But to my mind, the business leaders, including the CIO, only want to spend as much time and effort and money and resources on these sorts of things to avoid getting breached, ending up in headlines, getting fired or going to jail. So, vendors bring on the ML and AI smarts and the automation of these sorts of activities. >> So, if I may say something, the reason why we have this dichotomy between data catalog and the BI vendors is because data catalogs are very soon, not going to be standalone products, in my opinion. They're going to get embedded. So, when you use a BI tool, you'll actually use the catalog to find out what is it that you want to do, whether you are looking for data or you're looking for an existing dashboard. So, the catalog becomes embedded into the BI tool. >> Hey, Dave Menninger, sometimes you have some data in your back pocket. Do you have any stats (chuckles) on this topic? >> No, I'm glad you asked, because I'm going to... Now, data catalogs are something that's interesting. Sanjeev made a statement that data catalogs are falling out of favor. I don't care what you call them. They're valuable to organizations. Our research shows that organizations that have adequate data catalog technologies are three times more likely to express satisfaction with their analytics for just the reasons that Sanjeev was talking about. You can find what you want, you know you're getting the right information, you know whether or not it's trusted. So, those are good things. So, we expect to see the capabilities, whether it's embedded or separate. We expect to see those capabilities continue to permeate the market. >> And a lot of those catalogs are driven now by machine learning and things. So, they're learning from those patterns of usage by people when people use the data. (airy laughs) >> All right. Okay. Thank you, guys. All right. Let's move on to the next one. Tony Bear, let's bring up the predictions. You got something in here about the modern data stack. We need to rethink it. Is the modern data stack getting long at the tooth? Is it not so modern anymore? >> I think, in a way, it's got almost too modern. It's gotten too, I don't know if it's being long in the tooth, but it is getting long. The modern data stack, it's traditionally been defined as basically you have the data platform, which would be the operational database and the data warehouse. And in between, you have all the tools that are necessary to essentially get that data from the operational realm or the streaming realm for that matter into basically the data warehouse, or as we might be seeing more and more, the data lakehouse. And I think, what's important here is that, or I think, we have seen a lot of progress, and this would be in the cloud, is with the SaaS services. And especially you see that in the modern data stack, which is like all these players, not just the MongoDBs or the Oracles or the Amazons have their database platforms. You see they have the Informatica's, and all the other players there in Fivetrans have their own SaaS services. And within those SaaS services, you get a certain degree of simplicity, which is it takes all the housekeeping off the shoulders of the customers. That's a good thing. The problem is that what we're getting to unfortunately is what I would call lots of islands of simplicity, which means that it leads it (Dave laughing) to the customer to have to integrate or put all that stuff together. It's a complex tool chain. And so, what we really need to think about here, we have too many pieces. And going back to the discussion of catalogs, it's like we have so many catalogs out there, which one do we use? 'Cause chances are of most organizations do not rely on a single catalog at this point. What I'm calling on all the data providers or all the SaaS service providers, is to literally get it together and essentially make this modern data stack less of a stack, make it more of a blending of an end-to-end solution. And that can come in a number of different ways. Part of it is that we're data platform providers have been adding services that are adjacent. And there's some very good examples of this. We've seen progress over the past year or so. For instance, MongoDB integrating search. It's a very common, I guess, sort of tool that basically, that the applications that are developed on MongoDB use, so MongoDB then built it into the database rather than requiring an extra elastic search or open search stack. Amazon just... AWS just did the zero-ETL, which is a first step towards simplifying the process from going from Aurora to Redshift. You've seen same thing with Google, BigQuery integrating basically streaming pipelines. And you're seeing also a lot of movement in database machine learning. So, there's some good moves in this direction. I expect to see more than this year. Part of it's from basically the SaaS platform is adding some functionality. But I also see more importantly, because you're never going to get... This is like asking your data team and your developers, herding cats to standardizing the same tool. In most organizations, that is not going to happen. So, take a look at the most popular combinations of tools and start to come up with some pre-built integrations and pre-built orchestrations, and offer some promotional pricing, maybe not quite two for, but in other words, get two products for the price of two services or for the price of one and a half. I see a lot of potential for this. And it's to me, if the class was to simplify things, this is the next logical step and I expect to see more of this here. >> Yeah, and you see in Oracle, MySQL heat wave, yet another example of eliminating that ETL. Carl Olofson, today, if you think about the data stack and the application stack, they're largely separate. Do you have any thoughts on how that's going to play out? Does that play into this prediction? What do you think? >> Well, I think, that the... I really like Tony's phrase, islands of simplification. It really says (Tony chuckles) what's going on here, which is that all these different vendors you ask about, about how these stacks work. All these different vendors have their own stack vision. And you can... One application group is going to use one, and another application group is going to use another. And some people will say, let's go to, like you go to a Informatica conference and they say, we should be the center of your universe, but you can't connect everything in your universe to Informatica, so you need to use other things. So, the challenge is how do we make those things work together? As Tony has said, and I totally agree, we're never going to get to the point where people standardize on one organizing system. So, the alternative is to have metadata that can be shared amongst those systems and protocols that allow those systems to coordinate their operations. This is standard stuff. It's not easy. But the motive for the vendors is that they can become more active critical players in the enterprise. And of course, the motive for the customer is that things will run better and more completely. So, I've been looking at this in terms of two kinds of metadata. One is the meaning metadata, which says what data can be put together. The other is the operational metadata, which says basically where did it come from? Who created it? What's its current state? What's the security level? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The good news is the operational stuff can actually be done automatically, whereas the meaning stuff requires some human intervention. And as we've already heard from, was it Doug, I think, people are disinclined to put a lot of definition into meaning metadata. So, that may be the harder one, but coordination is key. This problem has been with us forever, but with the addition of new data sources, with streaming data with data in different formats, the whole thing has, it's been like what a customer of mine used to say, "I understand your product can make my system run faster, but right now I just feel I'm putting my problems on roller skates. (chuckles) I don't need that to accelerate what's already not working." >> Excellent. Okay, Carl, let's stay with you. I remember in the early days of the big data movement, Hadoop movement, NoSQL was the big thing. And I remember Amr Awadallah said to us in theCUBE that SQL is the killer app for big data. So, your prediction here, if we bring that up is SQL is back. Please elaborate. >> Yeah. So, of course, some people would say, well, it never left. Actually, that's probably closer to true, but in the perception of the marketplace, there's been all this noise about alternative ways of storing, retrieving data, whether it's in key value stores or document databases and so forth. We're getting a lot of messaging that for a while had persuaded people that, oh, we're not going to do analytics in SQL anymore. We're going to use Spark for everything, except that only a handful of people know how to use Spark. Oh, well, that's a problem. Well, how about, and for ordinary conventional business analytics, Spark is like an over-engineered solution to the problem. SQL works just great. What's happened in the past couple years, and what's going to continue to happen is that SQL is insinuating itself into everything we're seeing. We're seeing all the major data lake providers offering SQL support, whether it's Databricks or... And of course, Snowflake is loving this, because that is what they do, and their success is certainly points to the success of SQL, even MongoDB. And we were all, I think, at the MongoDB conference where on one day, we hear SQL is dead. They're not teaching SQL in schools anymore, and this kind of thing. And then, a couple days later at the same conference, they announced we're adding a new analytic capability-based on SQL. But didn't you just say SQL is dead? So, the reality is that SQL is better understood than most other methods of certainly of retrieving and finding data in a data collection, no matter whether it happens to be relational or non-relational. And even in systems that are very non-relational, such as graph and document databases, their query languages are being built or extended to resemble SQL, because SQL is something people understand. >> Now, you remember when we were in high school and you had had to take the... Your debating in the class and you were forced to take one side and defend it. So, I was was at a Vertica conference one time up on stage with Curt Monash, and I had to take the NoSQL, the world is changing paradigm shift. And so just to be controversial, I said to him, Curt Monash, I said, who really needs acid compliance anyway? Tony Baer. And so, (chuckles) of course, his head exploded, but what are your thoughts (guests laughing) on all this? >> Well, my first thought is congratulations, Dave, for surviving being up on stage with Curt Monash. >> Amen. (group laughing) >> I definitely would concur with Carl. We actually are definitely seeing a SQL renaissance and if there's any proof of the pudding here, I see lakehouse is being icing on the cake. As Doug had predicted last year, now, (clears throat) for the record, I think, Doug was about a year ahead of time in his predictions that this year is really the year that I see (clears throat) the lakehouse ecosystems really firming up. You saw the first shots last year. But anyway, on this, data lakes will not go away. I've actually, I'm on the home stretch of doing a market, a landscape on the lakehouse. And lakehouse will not replace data lakes in terms of that. There is the need for those, data scientists who do know Python, who knows Spark, to go in there and basically do their thing without all the restrictions or the constraints of a pre-built, pre-designed table structure. I get that. Same thing for developing models. But on the other hand, there is huge need. Basically, (clears throat) maybe MongoDB was saying that we're not teaching SQL anymore. Well, maybe we have an oversupply of SQL developers. Well, I'm being facetious there, but there is a huge skills based in SQL. Analytics have been built on SQL. They came with lakehouse and why this really helps to fuel a SQL revival is that the core need in the data lake, what brought on the lakehouse was not so much SQL, it was a need for acid. And what was the best way to do it? It was through a relational table structure. So, the whole idea of acid in the lakehouse was not to turn it into a transaction database, but to make the data trusted, secure, and more granularly governed, where you could govern down to column and row level, which you really could not do in a data lake or a file system. So, while lakehouse can be queried in a manner, you can go in there with Python or whatever, it's built on a relational table structure. And so, for that end, for those types of data lakes, it becomes the end state. You cannot bypass that table structure as I learned the hard way during my research. So, the bottom line I'd say here is that lakehouse is proof that we're starting to see the revenge of the SQL nerds. (Dave chuckles) >> Excellent. Okay, let's bring up back up the predictions. Dave Menninger, this one's really thought-provoking and interesting. We're hearing things like data as code, new data applications, machines actually generating plans with no human involvement. And your prediction is the definition of data is expanding. What do you mean by that? >> So, I think, for too long, we've thought about data as the, I would say facts that we collect the readings off of devices and things like that, but data on its own is really insufficient. Organizations need to manipulate that data and examine derivatives of the data to really understand what's happening in their organization, why has it happened, and to project what might happen in the future. And my comment is that these data derivatives need to be supported and managed just like the data needs to be managed. We can't treat this as entirely separate. Think about all the governance discussions we've had. Think about the metadata discussions we've had. If you separate these things, now you've got more moving parts. We're talking about simplicity and simplifying the stack. So, if these things are treated separately, it creates much more complexity. I also think it creates a little bit of a myopic view on the part of the IT organizations that are acquiring these technologies. They need to think more broadly. So, for instance, metrics. Metric stores are becoming much more common part of the tooling that's part of a data platform. Similarly, feature stores are gaining traction. So, those are designed to promote the reuse and consistency across the AI and ML initiatives. The elements that are used in developing an AI or ML model. And let me go back to metrics and just clarify what I mean by that. So, any type of formula involving the data points. I'm distinguishing metrics from features that are used in AI and ML models. And the data platforms themselves are increasingly managing the models as an element of data. So, just like figuring out how to calculate a metric. Well, if you're going to have the features associated with an AI and ML model, you probably need to be managing the model that's associated with those features. The other element where I see expansion is around external data. Organizations for decades have been focused on the data that they generate within their own organization. We see more and more of these platforms acquiring and publishing data to external third-party sources, whether they're within some sort of a partner ecosystem or whether it's a commercial distribution of that information. And our research shows that when organizations use external data, they derive even more benefits from the various analyses that they're conducting. And the last great frontier in my opinion on this expanding world of data is the world of driver-based planning. Very few of the major data platform providers provide these capabilities today. These are the types of things you would do in a spreadsheet. And we all know the issues associated with spreadsheets. They're hard to govern, they're error-prone. And so, if we can take that type of analysis, collecting the occupancy of a rental property, the projected rise in rental rates, the fluctuations perhaps in occupancy, the interest rates associated with financing that property, we can project forward. And that's a very common thing to do. What the income might look like from that property income, the expenses, we can plan and purchase things appropriately. So, I think, we need this broader purview and I'm beginning to see some of those things happen. And the evidence today I would say, is more focused around the metric stores and the feature stores starting to see vendors offer those capabilities. And we're starting to see the ML ops elements of managing the AI and ML models find their way closer to the data platforms as well. >> Very interesting. When I hear metrics, I think of KPIs, I think of data apps, orchestrate people and places and things to optimize around a set of KPIs. It sounds like a metadata challenge more... Somebody once predicted they'll have more metadata than data. Carl, what are your thoughts on this prediction? >> Yeah, I think that what Dave is describing as data derivatives is in a way, another word for what I was calling operational metadata, which not about the data itself, but how it's used, where it came from, what the rules are governing it, and that kind of thing. If you have a rich enough set of those things, then not only can you do a model of how well your vacation property rental may do in terms of income, but also how well your application that's measuring that is doing for you. In other words, how many times have I used it, how much data have I used and what is the relationship between the data that I've used and the benefits that I've derived from using it? Well, we don't have ways of doing that. What's interesting to me is that folks in the content world are way ahead of us here, because they have always tracked their content using these kinds of attributes. Where did it come from? When was it created, when was it modified? Who modified it? And so on and so forth. We need to do more of that with the structure data that we have, so that we can track what it's used. And also, it tells us how well we're doing with it. Is it really benefiting us? Are we being efficient? Are there improvements in processes that we need to consider? Because maybe data gets created and then it isn't used or it gets used, but it gets altered in some way that actually misleads people. (laughs) So, we need the mechanisms to be able to do that. So, I would say that that's... And I'd say that it's true that we need that stuff. I think, that starting to expand is probably the right way to put it. It's going to be expanding for some time. I think, we're still a distance from having all that stuff really working together. >> Maybe we should say it's gestating. (Dave and Carl laughing) >> Sorry, if I may- >> Sanjeev, yeah, I was going to say this... Sanjeev, please comment. This sounds to me like it supports Zhamak Dehghani's principles, but please. >> Absolutely. So, whether we call it data mesh or not, I'm not getting into that conversation, (Dave chuckles) but data (audio breaking) (Tony laughing) everything that I'm hearing what Dave is saying, Carl, this is the year when data products will start to take off. I'm not saying they'll become mainstream. They may take a couple of years to become so, but this is data products, all this thing about vacation rentals and how is it doing, that data is coming from different sources. I'm packaging it into our data product. And to Carl's point, there's a whole operational metadata associated with it. The idea is for organizations to see things like developer productivity, how many releases am I doing of this? What data products are most popular? I'm actually in right now in the process of formulating this concept that just like we had data catalogs, we are very soon going to be requiring data products catalog. So, I can discover these data products. I'm not just creating data products left, right, and center. I need to know, do they already exist? What is the usage? If no one is using a data product, maybe I want to retire and save cost. But this is a data product. Now, there's a associated thing that is also getting debated quite a bit called data contracts. And a data contract to me is literally just formalization of all these aspects of a product. How do you use it? What is the SLA on it, what is the quality that I am prescribing? So, data product, in my opinion, shifts the conversation to the consumers or to the business people. Up to this point when, Dave, you're talking about data and all of data discovery curation is a very data producer-centric. So, I think, we'll see a shift more into the consumer space. >> Yeah. Dave, can I just jump in there just very quickly there, which is that what Sanjeev has been saying there, this is really central to what Zhamak has been talking about. It's basically about making, one, data products are about the lifecycle management of data. Metadata is just elemental to that. And essentially, one of the things that she calls for is making data products discoverable. That's exactly what Sanjeev was talking about. >> By the way, did everyone just no notice how Sanjeev just snuck in another prediction there? So, we've got- >> Yeah. (group laughing) >> But you- >> Can we also say that he snuck in, I think, the term that we'll remember today, which is metadata museums. >> Yeah, but- >> Yeah. >> And also comment to, Tony, to your last year's prediction, you're really talking about it's not something that you're going to buy from a vendor. >> No. >> It's very specific >> Mm-hmm. >> to an organization, their own data product. So, touche on that one. Okay, last prediction. Let's bring them up. Doug Henschen, BI analytics is headed to embedding. What does that mean? >> Well, we all know that conventional BI dashboarding reporting is really commoditized from a vendor perspective. It never enjoyed truly mainstream adoption. Always that 25% of employees are really using these things. I'm seeing rising interest in embedding concise analytics at the point of decision or better still, using analytics as triggers for automation and workflows, and not even necessitating human interaction with visualizations, for example, if we have confidence in the analytics. So, leading companies are pushing for next generation applications, part of this low-code, no-code movement we've seen. And they want to build that decision support right into the app. So, the analytic is right there. Leading enterprise apps vendors, Salesforce, SAP, Microsoft, Oracle, they're all building smart apps with the analytics predictions, even recommendations built into these applications. And I think, the progressive BI analytics vendors are supporting this idea of driving insight to action, not necessarily necessitating humans interacting with it if there's confidence. So, we want prediction, we want embedding, we want automation. This low-code, no-code development movement is very important to bringing the analytics to where people are doing their work. We got to move beyond the, what I call swivel chair integration, between where people do their work and going off to separate reports and dashboards, and having to interpret and analyze before you can go back and do take action. >> And Dave Menninger, today, if you want, analytics or you want to absorb what's happening in the business, you typically got to go ask an expert, and then wait. So, what are your thoughts on Doug's prediction? >> I'm in total agreement with Doug. I'm going to say that collectively... So, how did we get here? I'm going to say collectively as an industry, we made a mistake. We made BI and analytics separate from the operational systems. Now, okay, it wasn't really a mistake. We were limited by the technology available at the time. Decades ago, we had to separate these two systems, so that the analytics didn't impact the operations. You don't want the operations preventing you from being able to do a transaction. But we've gone beyond that now. We can bring these two systems and worlds together and organizations recognize that need to change. As Doug said, the majority of the workforce and the majority of organizations doesn't have access to analytics. That's wrong. (chuckles) We've got to change that. And one of the ways that's going to change is with embedded analytics. 2/3 of organizations recognize that embedded analytics are important and it even ranks higher in importance than AI and ML in those organizations. So, it's interesting. This is a really important topic to the organizations that are consuming these technologies. The good news is it works. Organizations that have embraced embedded analytics are more comfortable with self-service than those that have not, as opposed to turning somebody loose, in the wild with the data. They're given a guided path to the data. And the research shows that 65% of organizations that have adopted embedded analytics are comfortable with self-service compared with just 40% of organizations that are turning people loose in an ad hoc way with the data. So, totally behind Doug's predictions. >> Can I just break in with something here, a comment on what Dave said about what Doug said, which (laughs) is that I totally agree with what you said about embedded analytics. And at IDC, we made a prediction in our future intelligence, future of intelligence service three years ago that this was going to happen. And the thing that we're waiting for is for developers to build... You have to write the applications to work that way. It just doesn't happen automagically. Developers have to write applications that reference analytic data and apply it while they're running. And that could involve simple things like complex queries against the live data, which is through something that I've been calling analytic transaction processing. Or it could be through something more sophisticated that involves AI operations as Doug has been suggesting, where the result is enacted pretty much automatically unless the scores are too low and you need to have a human being look at it. So, I think that that is definitely something we've been watching for. I'm not sure how soon it will come, because it seems to take a long time for people to change their thinking. But I think, as Dave was saying, once they do and they apply these principles in their application development, the rewards are great. >> Yeah, this is very much, I would say, very consistent with what we were talking about, I was talking about before, about basically rethinking the modern data stack and going into more of an end-to-end solution solution. I think, that what we're talking about clearly here is operational analytics. There'll still be a need for your data scientists to go offline just in their data lakes to do all that very exploratory and that deep modeling. But clearly, it just makes sense to bring operational analytics into where people work into their workspace and further flatten that modern data stack. >> But with all this metadata and all this intelligence, we're talking about injecting AI into applications, it does seem like we're entering a new era of not only data, but new era of apps. Today, most applications are about filling forms out or codifying processes and require a human input. And it seems like there's enough data now and enough intelligence in the system that the system can actually pull data from, whether it's the transaction system, e-commerce, the supply chain, ERP, and actually do something with that data without human involvement, present it to humans. Do you guys see this as a new frontier? >> I think, that's certainly- >> Very much so, but it's going to take a while, as Carl said. You have to design it, you have to get the prediction into the system, you have to get the analytics at the point of decision has to be relevant to that decision point. >> And I also recall basically a lot of the ERP vendors back like 10 years ago, we're promising that. And the fact that we're still looking at the promises shows just how difficult, how much of a challenge it is to get to what Doug's saying. >> One element that could be applied in this case is (indistinct) architecture. If applications are developed that are event-driven rather than following the script or sequence that some programmer or designer had preconceived, then you'll have much more flexible applications. You can inject decisions at various points using this technology much more easily. It's a completely different way of writing applications. And it actually involves a lot more data, which is why we should all like it. (laughs) But in the end (Tony laughing) it's more stable, it's easier to manage, easier to maintain, and it's actually more efficient, which is the result of an MIT study from about 10 years ago, and still, we are not seeing this come to fruition in most business applications. >> And do you think it's going to require a new type of data platform database? Today, data's all far-flung. We see that's all over the clouds and at the edge. Today, you cache- >> We need a super cloud. >> You cache that data, you're throwing into memory. I mentioned, MySQL heat wave. There are other examples where it's a brute force approach, but maybe we need new ways of laying data out on disk and new database architectures, and just when we thought we had it all figured out. >> Well, without referring to disk, which to my mind, is almost like talking about cave painting. I think, that (Dave laughing) all the things that have been mentioned by all of us today are elements of what I'm talking about. In other words, the whole improvement of the data mesh, the improvement of metadata across the board and improvement of the ability to track data and judge its freshness the way we judge the freshness of a melon or something like that, to determine whether we can still use it. Is it still good? That kind of thing. Bringing together data from multiple sources dynamically and real-time requires all the things we've been talking about. All the predictions that we've talked about today add up to elements that can make this happen. >> Well, guys, it's always tremendous to get these wonderful minds together and get your insights, and I love how it shapes the outcome here of the predictions, and let's see how we did. We're going to leave it there. I want to thank Sanjeev, Tony, Carl, David, and Doug. Really appreciate the collaboration and thought that you guys put into these sessions. Really, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> All right, this is Dave Valente for theCUBE, signing off for now. Follow these guys on social media. Look for coverage on siliconangle.com, theCUBE.net. Thank you for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, wonderful Cloud community and welcome back to our wall-to-wall coverage of AWS re:Invent here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by the brilliant John Furrier. John, how you doing this afternoon? >> Doing great, feeling good. We've got day three here, another day tomorrow. Wall-to-wall coverage we're already over a hundred something videos, live getting up. >> You're holding up well. >> And then Cloud show is just popping. It's back to pre-pandemic levels. The audience is here, what recession? But there is one coming but apparently doesn't seem to be an unnoticed with the Cloud community. >> I think, we'll be talking a little bit about that in our next interview in the state of the union. Not just our union, but the the general global economy and the climate there with some fabulous guests from Software One. Please welcome Neil and Bernd, welcome to the show, guys. How you doing? >> Great, thank you. >> Really good. >> Yeah, like you said, just getting over the jet lag. >> Yeah, yeah. Pretty good today, yeah, (laughing loudly) glad we did it today. >> I love that Neil, set your smiling and I can feel your energy. Tell us a little bit about Software One and what you all do. >> Yeah, so Software One we're a software and Cloud solutions provider. We're in 90 countries. We have 65,000 customers. >> Savannah: Just a few. >> Yeah, and we really focus on being close to the customers and helping customers through their software and Cloud journey. So we transact, we sell software in Cloud, 10,000 different ISVs. And then on top of that we a lot of services around the spend optimization FinOps we'll talk about as well, and lots of other areas. But yeah, we're really a large scale partner in this space. >> That's awesome. FinOps, cost optimization, pretty much all we've been talking about here on the give. It's very much a hot topic. I'm actually excited about this and Bernd I'm going to throw this one to you first. We haven't actually done a proper definition of what FinOps is at the show yet. What is FinOps? >> Well, largely speaking it's Cloud cost optimization but for us it's a lot more than for others. That's our superpower. We do it all. We do the technology side but we also do the licensing side. So, we have a differentiated offering. If you would look at the six Rs of application migration we do it all, not even an Accenture as it all. And that is our differentiation. >> You know, yesterday Adams left was on the Keynote. He's like waving his hands around. It's like, "Hey, we got if you want to tighten your belt, come to the Cloud." I'm like, wait a minute. In 2008 when the last recession, Amazon wasn't a factor. They were small. Now they're massive, they're huge. They're a big part of the economic equation. What does belt tightening mean? Like what does that mean? Like do customers just go to the marketplace? Do they go, do you guys, so a lot of moving parts now on how they're buying software and they're fine tuning their Cloud too. It's not just eliminate budget, it's fine tune the machine if you will... >> 'make a smarter Cloud. >> Explain this phenomenon, how people are tackling this cost optimization, Cloud optimization. 'Cause they're not going to stop building. >> No. >> This is right sizing and tuning and cutting. >> Yeah, we see, of course with so many customers in so many countries, we have a lot of different views on maturity and we see customers taking the FinOps journey at different paces. But fundamentally what we see is that it's more of an afterthought and coming in at a panic stage rather than building it and engaging with it from the beginning and doing it continuously. And really that's the huge opportunity and AWS is a big believer in this of continued optimization of the Cloud is a confident Cloud. A confident Cloud means you'll do more with it. If you lose confidence in that bill in what how much it's costing you, you're going to retract. And so it's really about making sure all customers know exactly what's in there, how it's optimized, restocking, reformatting applications, getting more out of the microservices and getting more value out the Cloud and that will help them tighten that belt. >> So the euphoric enthusiasm of previous years of building water just fallen the pipes leaving the lights on when you go to bed. I mean that's kind of the mentality. People were not literally I won't say they weren't not paying attention but there was some just keep going we're all good now it's like whoa, whoa. We turn that service off and no one's using it or do automation. So there's a lot more of that mindset emerging. We're hearing that for the first time price performance being mindful of what's on and off common sense basically. >> Yeah, but it's not just that the lights are on and the faucets are open it's also the air condition is running. So the FinOps foundation is estimating that about a third of Cloud spend is waste and that's where FinOps comes in. We can help customers be more efficient in the Cloud and lower their Cloud spend while doing the same or more. >> So, let's dig in a little bit there. How do you apply FinOps when migrating to the Cloud? >> Well, you start with the business case and you're not just looking at infrastructure costs like most people do you ought look at software licensing costs. For example, if you run SQL on-premise you have an enterprise agreement. But if you move it to the Cloud you may actually take a different more favorable licensing agreement and save a lot of money. And these things are hidden. They're not to be seen but they need to be part of the business case. >> When you look at the modernization trend we had an analyst on our session with David Vellante and Zs (indistinct) from ZK Consulting. He had an interesting comment. He said, "Spend more in Cloud to save more." Which is a mindset that doesn't come across right. Wait a minute, spend more, save more. You can do bet right now with the Clouds kind of the the thesis of FinOps, you don't have to cut. Just kind of cut the waste out but still spend and build if you're smart, there's a lot more of that going on. What does that mean? >> I mean, yeah I've got a good example of this is, we're the largest Microsoft provider in the world. And when of course when you move Microsoft workloads to the Cloud, you don't... Maybe you don't want a server, you can go serverless, right? So you may not win a server. Bernd said SQL, right? So, it's not just about putting applications in the Cloud and workloads in the Cloud. It's about modernizing them and then really taking advantage of what you can really do in the Cloud. And I think that's where the customers are still pretty immature. They're still on that journey of throwing stuff in there and then realizing actually they can take way more advantage of what services are in there to reduce the amount and get even more in there. >> Yeah, and so the... You want to say, something? >> How much, just building on the stereotypical image of Cloud customer is the marketing person with a credit card, right? And there are many of them and they all buy their own Cloud and companies have a hard time consolidating the spend pulling it together, even within a country. But across countries across the globe, it's really, really hard. If you pull it all together, you get a better discount. You spend more to save more. >> Yeah, and also there's a human piece. We had an intern two summers ago playing with our Cloud. We're on a Cloud with our media plus stack left a service was playing around doing some tinkering and like, where's this bill? What is this extra $20,000 came from. It just, we left a service on... >> It's a really good point actually. It's something that we see almost every day right now which is customers also not understanding what they've put in the Cloud and what the implications of spikes are. And also therefore having really robust monitoring and processes and having a partner that can look after that for them. Otherwise we've got customers where they've been really shocked about not doing things the right way because they've empowered the business but also not with the maturity that the business needs to have that responsibility. >> And that's a great point. New people coming in and or people being platooned through new jobs are getting used to the Cloud. That's a great point. I got that brings up my security question 'cause this comes up a lot. So that's what's a lot of spend of people dialing up more security. Obviously people try everything with security, every tool, every platform, and throw everything at the problem. How does that impact the FinOps equation? 'Cause Dev SecOps is now part of everything. Okay, moving security at the CICD pipeline, that's cool. Check Cloud native applications, microservices event-based services check. But now you've got more security. How does that factor into the cost side? What you guys look at that can you share your thoughts on how your customers are managing their security posture without getting kind of over the barrel, if you will? >> Since we are at AWS re:Invent, right? We can talk about the well architected framework of AWS and there's six components to it. And there's reliability, there's security cost, performance quality, operational quality and sustainability. And so when we think about migrating apps to the Cloud or modernizing them in the Cloud security is always a table stakes. >> And it has to be, yeah, go ahead. >> I really like what AWS is doing with us on that. We partner very closely on that area. And to give you a parallel example of Microsoft I don't feel very good about that at the moment. We see a lot of customers right now that get hacked and normally it's... >> 'yeah that's such a topic. >> You mean on Azure? >> Yeah, and what happens is that they normally it's a crypto mining script that the customer comes in they come in as the customer get hacked and then they... We saw an incident the other day where we had 2,100 security incidents in a minute where it all like exploded on the customer side. And so that's also really important is that the customer's understanding that security element also who they're letting in and out of their organization and also the responsibility they have if things go bad. And that's also not aware, like when they get hacked, are they responsible for that? Are they not responsible? Is the provider... >> 'shared responsibility? >> Yeah. >> 'well that security data lake the open cybersecurity schema framework. That's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out to your point. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Yeah, it is fascinating and it does require a lot of collaboration. What other trends, what other big challenges are you seeing? You're obviously working with customers at incredible scale. What are some of the other problems you're helping them tackle? >> I think we work with customers from SMB all the way up to enterprise and public sector. But what we see is more in the enterprise space. So we see a lot of customers willing to commit a lot to the Cloud based on all the themes that we've set but not commit financially for all the PNLs that they run in all the business units of all the different companies that they may own in different countries. So it's like, how can I commit but not be responsible on the hook for the bill that comes in. And we see this all the time right now and we are working closely with AWS on this. And we see the ability for customers to commit centrally but decentralized billing, decentralized optimization and decentralized FinOps. So that's that educational layer within the business units who owns the PNL where they get that fitness and they own what they're spending but the company is alone can commit to AWS. And I think that's a big trend that we are seeing is centralized commitment but decentralized ownership in that model. >> And that's where the marketplaces kind of fit in as well. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, yeah. Do you want to add some more on that? >> I mean the marketplace, if you're going to cut your bill you go to the marketplace right there you want single dashboard or your marketplace what's the customer going to do when they're going to tighten their belts? What do they do? What's their workflow, marketplace? What's the process? >> Well, on marketplaces, the larger companies will have a private marketplace with dedicated pricing managed service they can call off. But that's for the software of the shelf. They still have the data centers they still have all the legacy and they need to do the which ones are we going to keep which ones are we going to retire, we repurchase, we license, rehouse, relocate, all of those things. >> That's your wheelhouse. >> It's a three, yes is our wheelhouse. It's a three to five year process for most companies. >> This could be a tailwind for you guys. This is like a good time. >> I mean FinOps is super cool and super hot right now. >> Not that you're biased? (all laughing loudly) >> But look, it's great to see it because well we are the magic quadrant leader in software asset management, which is a pedigree of ours. But we always had to convince customers to do that because they're always worried, oh what you're going to find do I have an audit? Do I have to give Oracles some more money or SAP some more money? So there's always like, you know... >> 'don't, (indistinct). >> How compliant do I really want? >> Is anyone paying attention to this? >> Well FinOps it's all upside. Like it's all upside. And so it's completely flipped. And now we speak to most customers that are building FinOps internally and then they're like, hold on a minute I'm a bank. Why do I have hundred people doing FinOps? And so that's the trend that we've seen because they just get more and more value out of it all the time. >> Well also the key mindset is that the consumption based model of Cloud you mentioned Oracle 'cause they're stuck in that whoa, whoa, whoa, how many servers license and they're stuck in that extortion. And now they got Cloud once you're on a variable, what's the downside? >> Exactly and then you can look at all the applications, see where you can go serverless see where you can go native services all that sort of stuff is all upside. >> And for the major workloads like SAP and Oracle and Microsoft defined that customers save in the millions. >> Well just on that point, those VMware, SAP, these workloads they're being rolled and encapsulated into containers and Kubernetes run times moved into the Cloud, they're being refactored. So that's a whole nother ballgame. >> Yes. Lift and shift usually doesn't save you any money. So that's relocation with containers may save you money but in some cases you have to... >> 'it's more in the Cloud now than ever before. >> Yeah >> Yeah, yeah. >> Before we take him to the challenge portion we have a little quiz for you, or not a quiz, but a little prop for you in a second. I want to talk about your role. You have a very important role at the FinOps Foundation and why don't you tell me more about that? You, why don't you go. >> All right, so yeah I mean we are a founding member of the Finops organization. You can tell I'm super passionate about it as well. >> I wanted to keep that club like a poster boy for FinOps right now. It's great, I love the energy. >> You have some VA down that is going to go up on the table and dance, (all laughing loudly) >> We're ready for it. We're waiting for that performance here on theCUBE this week. I promise I would keep everyone up an alert... >> 'and it's on the post. And our value to the foundation is first of all the feedback we get from all our customers, right? We can bring that back as an organization to that also as one of the founding members. We're one of the only ones that really deliver services and platforms. So we'll work with Cloud health, Cloud ability our own platform as well, and we'll do that. And we have over 200 practitioners completely dedicated to FinOps as well. So, it's a great foundation, they're doing an amazing job and we're super proud to be part of that. >> Yeah, I love that you're contributing to the community as well as supporting it, looking after your customers. All right, so our new tradition here on theCUBE at re:Invent 'cause we're looking for your 32nd Instagram reel hot take sizzle of thought leadership on the number one takeaway most important theme of the show this year Bernd do you want to go first? >> Of the re:Invent show or whatever? >> You can interpret that however you want. We've gotten some unique interpretations throughout the week, so we're probing. >> Everybody's looking for the superpower to do more with less in the Cloud. That will be the theme of 2023. >> Perfect, I love that. 10 seconds, your mic very efficient. You're clearly providing an efficient solution based on that answer. >> I won't that much. That's... (laughing loudly) >> It's the quiz. And what about you Neil? Give us your, (indistinct) >> I'm going to steal your comment. It's exactly what I was thinking earlier. Tech is super resilient and tech is there for customers when they want to invest and modernize and do fun stuff and they're also there for when they want to save money. So we are always like a constant and you see that here. It's like this is... It's always happening here, always happening. >> It is always happening. It really can feel the energy. I hope that the show is just as energetic and fun for you guys. As the last few minutes here on theCUBE has been thank you both for joining us. >> Thanks. >> Thank you very much. >> And thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this conversation about FinOps, Cloud confidence and all things AWS re:Invent. We're here in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier, my name is Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

>>When Oracle acquired my SQL via the Sun acquisition, nobody really thought the company would put much effort into the platform preferring to focus all the wood behind its leading Oracle database, Arrow pun intended. But two years ago, Oracle surprised many folks by announcing my SQL Heatwave a new database as a service with a massively parallel hybrid Columbia in Mary Mary architecture that brings together transactional and analytic data in a single platform. Welcome to our latest database, power panel on the cube. My name is Dave Ante, and today we're gonna discuss Oracle's MySQL Heat Wave with a who's who of cloud database industry analysts. Holgar Mueller is with Constellation Research. Mark Stammer is the Dragon Slayer and Wikibon contributor. And Ron Westfall is with Fu Chim Research. Gentlemen, welcome back to the Cube. Always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. >>So we've had a number of of deep dive interviews on the Cube with Nip and Aggarwal. You guys know him? He's a senior vice president of MySQL, Heatwave Development at Oracle. I think you just saw him at Oracle Cloud World and he's come on to describe this is gonna, I'll call it a shock and awe feature additions to to heatwave. You know, the company's clearly putting r and d into the platform and I think at at cloud world we saw like the fifth major release since 2020 when they first announced MySQL heat wave. So just listing a few, they, they got, they taken, brought in analytics machine learning, they got autopilot for machine learning, which is automation onto the basic o l TP functionality of the database. And it's been interesting to watch Oracle's converge database strategy. We've contrasted that amongst ourselves. Love to get your thoughts on Amazon's get the right tool for the right job approach. >>Are they gonna have to change that? You know, Amazon's got the specialized databases, it's just, you know, the both companies are doing well. It just shows there are a lot of ways to, to skin a cat cuz you see some traction in the market in, in both approaches. So today we're gonna focus on the latest heat wave announcements and we're gonna talk about multi-cloud with a native MySQL heat wave implementation, which is available on aws MySQL heat wave for Azure via the Oracle Microsoft interconnect. This kind of cool hybrid action that they got going. Sometimes we call it super cloud. And then we're gonna dive into my SQL Heatwave Lake house, which allows users to process and query data across MyQ databases as heatwave databases, as well as object stores. So, and then we've got, heatwave has been announced on AWS and, and, and Azure, they're available now and Lake House I believe is in beta and I think it's coming out the second half of next year. So again, all of our guests are fresh off of Oracle Cloud world in Las Vegas. So they got the latest scoop. Guys, I'm done talking. Let's get into it. Mark, maybe you could start us off, what's your opinion of my SQL Heatwaves competitive position? When you think about what AWS is doing, you know, Google is, you know, we heard Google Cloud next recently, we heard about all their data innovations. You got, obviously Azure's got a big portfolio, snowflakes doing well in the market. What's your take? >>Well, first let's look at it from the point of view that AWS is the market leader in cloud and cloud services. They own somewhere between 30 to 50% depending on who you read of the market. And then you have Azure as number two and after that it falls off. There's gcp, Google Cloud platform, which is further way down the list and then Oracle and IBM and Alibaba. So when you look at AWS and you and Azure saying, hey, these are the market leaders in the cloud, then you start looking at it and saying, if I am going to provide a service that competes with the service they have, if I can make it available in their cloud, it means that I can be more competitive. And if I'm compelling and compelling means at least twice the performance or functionality or both at half the price, I should be able to gain market share. >>And that's what Oracle's done. They've taken a superior product in my SQL heat wave, which is faster, lower cost does more for a lot less at the end of the day and they make it available to the users of those clouds. You avoid this little thing called egress fees, you avoid the issue of having to migrate from one cloud to another and suddenly you have a very compelling offer. So I look at what Oracle's doing with MyQ and it feels like, I'm gonna use a word term, a flanking maneuver to their competition. They're offering a better service on their platforms. >>All right, so thank you for that. Holger, we've seen this sort of cadence, I sort of referenced it up front a little bit and they sat on MySQL for a decade, then all of a sudden we see this rush of announcements. Why did it take so long? And and more importantly is Oracle, are they developing the right features that cloud database customers are looking for in your view? >>Yeah, great question, but first of all, in your interview you said it's the edit analytics, right? Analytics is kind of like a marketing buzzword. Reports can be analytics, right? The interesting thing, which they did, the first thing they, they, they crossed the chasm between OTP and all up, right? In the same database, right? So major engineering feed very much what customers want and it's all about creating Bellevue for customers, which, which I think is the part why they go into the multi-cloud and why they add these capabilities. And they certainly with the AI capabilities, it's kind of like getting it into an autonomous field, self-driving field now with the lake cost capabilities and meeting customers where they are, like Mark has talked about the e risk costs in the cloud. So that that's a significant advantage, creating value for customers and that's what at the end of the day matters. >>And I believe strongly that long term it's gonna be ones who create better value for customers who will get more of their money From that perspective, why then take them so long? I think it's a great question. I think largely he mentioned the gentleman Nial, it's largely to who leads a product. I used to build products too, so maybe I'm a little fooling myself here, but that made the difference in my view, right? So since he's been charged, he's been building things faster than the rest of the competition, than my SQL space, which in hindsight we thought was a hot and smoking innovation phase. It kind of like was a little self complacent when it comes to the traditional borders of where, where people think, where things are separated between OTP and ola or as an example of adjacent support, right? Structured documents, whereas unstructured documents or databases and all of that has been collapsed and brought together for building a more powerful database for customers. >>So I mean it's certainly, you know, when, when Oracle talks about the competitors, you know, the competitors are in the, I always say they're, if the Oracle talks about you and knows you're doing well, so they talk a lot about aws, talk a little bit about Snowflake, you know, sort of Google, they have partnerships with Azure, but, but in, so I'm presuming that the response in MySQL heatwave was really in, in response to what they were seeing from those big competitors. But then you had Maria DB coming out, you know, the day that that Oracle acquired Sun and, and launching and going after the MySQL base. So it's, I'm, I'm interested and we'll talk about this later and what you guys think AWS and Google and Azure and Snowflake and how they're gonna respond. But, but before I do that, Ron, I want to ask you, you, you, you can get, you know, pretty technical and you've probably seen the benchmarks. >>I know you have Oracle makes a big deal out of it, publishes its benchmarks, makes some transparent on on GI GitHub. Larry Ellison talked about this in his keynote at Cloud World. What are the benchmarks show in general? I mean, when you, when you're new to the market, you gotta have a story like Mark was saying, you gotta be two x you know, the performance at half the cost or you better be or you're not gonna get any market share. So, and, and you know, oftentimes companies don't publish market benchmarks when they're leading. They do it when they, they need to gain share. So what do you make of the benchmarks? Have their, any results that were surprising to you? Have, you know, they been challenged by the competitors. Is it just a bunch of kind of desperate bench marketing to make some noise in the market or you know, are they real? What's your view? >>Well, from my perspective, I think they have the validity. And to your point, I believe that when it comes to competitor responses, that has not really happened. Nobody has like pulled down the information that's on GitHub and said, Oh, here are our price performance results. And they counter oracles. In fact, I think part of the reason why that hasn't happened is that there's the risk if Oracle's coming out and saying, Hey, we can deliver 17 times better query performance using our capabilities versus say, Snowflake when it comes to, you know, the Lakehouse platform and Snowflake turns around and says it's actually only 15 times better during performance, that's not exactly an effective maneuver. And so I think this is really to oracle's credit and I think it's refreshing because these differentiators are significant. We're not talking, you know, like 1.2% differences. We're talking 17 fold differences, we're talking six fold differences depending on, you know, where the spotlight is being shined and so forth. >>And so I think this is actually something that is actually too good to believe initially at first blush. If I'm a cloud database decision maker, I really have to prioritize this. I really would know, pay a lot more attention to this. And that's why I posed the question to Oracle and others like, okay, if these differentiators are so significant, why isn't the needle moving a bit more? And it's for, you know, some of the usual reasons. One is really deep discounting coming from, you know, the other players that's really kind of, you know, marketing 1 0 1, this is something you need to do when there's a real competitive threat to keep, you know, a customer in your own customer base. Plus there is the usual fear and uncertainty about moving from one platform to another. But I think, you know, the traction, the momentum is, is shifting an Oracle's favor. I think we saw that in the Q1 efforts, for example, where Oracle cloud grew 44% and that it generated, you know, 4.8 billion and revenue if I recall correctly. And so, so all these are demonstrating that's Oracle is making, I think many of the right moves, publishing these figures for anybody to look at from their own perspective is something that is, I think, good for the market and I think it's just gonna continue to pay dividends for Oracle down the horizon as you know, competition intens plots. So if I were in, >>Dave, can I, Dave, can I interject something and, and what Ron just said there? Yeah, please go ahead. A couple things here, one discounting, which is a common practice when you have a real threat, as Ron pointed out, isn't going to help much in this situation simply because you can't discount to the point where you improve your performance and the performance is a huge differentiator. You may be able to get your price down, but the problem that most of them have is they don't have an integrated product service. They don't have an integrated O L T P O L A P M L N data lake. Even if you cut out two of them, they don't have any of them integrated. They have multiple services that are required separate integration and that can't be overcome with discounting. And the, they, you have to pay for each one of these. And oh, by the way, as you grow, the discounts go away. So that's a, it's a minor important detail. >>So, so that's a TCO question mark, right? And I know you look at this a lot, if I had that kind of price performance advantage, I would be pounding tco, especially if I need two separate databases to do the job. That one can do, that's gonna be, the TCO numbers are gonna be off the chart or maybe down the chart, which you want. Have you looked at this and how does it compare with, you know, the big cloud guys, for example, >>I've looked at it in depth, in fact, I'm working on another TCO on this arena, but you can find it on Wiki bod in which I compared TCO for MySEQ Heat wave versus Aurora plus Redshift plus ML plus Blue. I've compared it against gcps services, Azure services, Snowflake with other services. And there's just no comparison. The, the TCO differences are huge. More importantly, thefor, the, the TCO per performance is huge. We're talking in some cases multiple orders of magnitude, but at least an order of magnitude difference. So discounting isn't gonna help you much at the end of the day, it's only going to lower your cost a little, but it doesn't improve the automation, it doesn't improve the performance, it doesn't improve the time to insight, it doesn't improve all those things that you want out of a database or multiple databases because you >>Can't discount yourself to a higher value proposition. >>So what about, I wonder ho if you could chime in on the developer angle. You, you followed that, that market. How do these innovations from heatwave, I think you used the term developer velocity. I've heard you used that before. Yeah, I mean, look, Oracle owns Java, okay, so it, it's, you know, most popular, you know, programming language in the world, blah, blah blah. But it does it have the, the minds and hearts of, of developers and does, where does heatwave fit into that equation? >>I think heatwave is gaining quickly mindshare on the developer side, right? It's not the traditional no sequel database which grew up, there's a traditional mistrust of oracles to developers to what was happening to open source when gets acquired. Like in the case of Oracle versus Java and where my sql, right? And, but we know it's not a good competitive strategy to, to bank on Oracle screwing up because it hasn't worked not on Java known my sequel, right? And for developers, it's, once you get to know a technology product and you can do more, it becomes kind of like a Swiss army knife and you can build more use case, you can build more powerful applications. That's super, super important because you don't have to get certified in multiple databases. You, you are fast at getting things done, you achieve fire, develop velocity, and the managers are happy because they don't have to license more things, send you to more trainings, have more risk of something not being delivered, right? >>So it's really the, we see the suite where this best of breed play happening here, which in general was happening before already with Oracle's flagship database. Whereas those Amazon as an example, right? And now the interesting thing is every step away Oracle was always a one database company that can be only one and they're now generally talking about heat web and that two database company with different market spaces, but same value proposition of integrating more things very, very quickly to have a universal database that I call, they call the converge database for all the needs of an enterprise to run certain application use cases. And that's what's attractive to developers. >>It's, it's ironic isn't it? I mean I, you know, the rumor was the TK Thomas Curian left Oracle cuz he wanted to put Oracle database on other clouds and other places. And maybe that was the rift. Maybe there was, I'm sure there was other things, but, but Oracle clearly is now trying to expand its Tam Ron with, with heatwave into aws, into Azure. How do you think Oracle's gonna do, you were at a cloud world, what was the sentiment from customers and the independent analyst? Is this just Oracle trying to screw with the competition, create a little diversion? Or is this, you know, serious business for Oracle? What do you think? >>No, I think it has lakes. I think it's definitely, again, attriting to Oracle's overall ability to differentiate not only my SQL heat wave, but its overall portfolio. And I think the fact that they do have the alliance with the Azure in place, that this is definitely demonstrating their commitment to meeting the multi-cloud needs of its customers as well as what we pointed to in terms of the fact that they're now offering, you know, MySQL capabilities within AWS natively and that it can now perform AWS's own offering. And I think this is all demonstrating that Oracle is, you know, not letting up, they're not resting on its laurels. That's clearly we are living in a multi-cloud world, so why not just make it more easy for customers to be able to use cloud databases according to their own specific, specific needs. And I think, you know, to holder's point, I think that definitely lines with being able to bring on more application developers to leverage these capabilities. >>I think one important announcement that's related to all this was the JSON relational duality capabilities where now it's a lot easier for application developers to use a language that they're very familiar with a JS O and not have to worry about going into relational databases to store their J S O N application coding. So this is, I think an example of the innovation that's enhancing the overall Oracle portfolio and certainly all the work with machine learning is definitely paying dividends as well. And as a result, I see Oracle continue to make these inroads that we pointed to. But I agree with Mark, you know, the short term discounting is just a stall tag. This is not denying the fact that Oracle is being able to not only deliver price performance differentiators that are dramatic, but also meeting a wide range of needs for customers out there that aren't just limited device performance consideration. >>Being able to support multi-cloud according to customer needs. Being able to reach out to the application developer community and address a very specific challenge that has plagued them for many years now. So bring it all together. Yeah, I see this as just enabling Oracles who ring true with customers. That the customers that were there were basically all of them, even though not all of them are going to be saying the same things, they're all basically saying positive feedback. And likewise, I think the analyst community is seeing this. It's always refreshing to be able to talk to customers directly and at Oracle cloud there was a litany of them and so this is just a difference maker as well as being able to talk to strategic partners. The nvidia, I think partnerships also testament to Oracle's ongoing ability to, you know, make the ecosystem more user friendly for the customers out there. >>Yeah, it's interesting when you get these all in one tools, you know, the Swiss Army knife, you expect that it's not able to be best of breed. That's the kind of surprising thing that I'm hearing about, about heatwave. I want to, I want to talk about Lake House because when I think of Lake House, I think data bricks, and to my knowledge data bricks hasn't been in the sites of Oracle yet. Maybe they're next, but, but Oracle claims that MySQL, heatwave, Lakehouse is a breakthrough in terms of capacity and performance. Mark, what are your thoughts on that? Can you double click on, on Lakehouse Oracle's claims for things like query performance and data loading? What does it mean for the market? Is Oracle really leading in, in the lake house competitive landscape? What are your thoughts? >>Well, but name in the game is what are the problems you're solving for the customer? More importantly, are those problems urgent or important? If they're urgent, customers wanna solve 'em. Now if they're important, they might get around to them. So you look at what they're doing with Lake House or previous to that machine learning or previous to that automation or previous to that O L A with O ltp and they're merging all this capability together. If you look at Snowflake or data bricks, they're tacking one problem. You look at MyQ heat wave, they're tacking multiple problems. So when you say, yeah, their queries are much better against the lake house in combination with other analytics in combination with O ltp and the fact that there are no ETLs. So you're getting all this done in real time. So it's, it's doing the query cross, cross everything in real time. >>You're solving multiple user and developer problems, you're increasing their ability to get insight faster, you're having shorter response times. So yeah, they really are solving urgent problems for customers. And by putting it where the customer lives, this is the brilliance of actually being multicloud. And I know I'm backing up here a second, but by making it work in AWS and Azure where people already live, where they already have applications, what they're saying is, we're bringing it to you. You don't have to come to us to get these, these benefits, this value overall, I think it's a brilliant strategy. I give Nip and Argo wallet a huge, huge kudos for what he's doing there. So yes, what they're doing with the lake house is going to put notice on data bricks and Snowflake and everyone else for that matter. Well >>Those are guys that whole ago you, you and I have talked about this. Those are, those are the guys that are doing sort of the best of breed. You know, they're really focused and they, you know, tend to do well at least out of the gate. Now you got Oracle's converged philosophy, obviously with Oracle database. We've seen that now it's kicking in gear with, with heatwave, you know, this whole thing of sweets versus best of breed. I mean the long term, you know, customers tend to migrate towards suite, but the new shiny toy tends to get the growth. How do you think this is gonna play out in cloud database? >>Well, it's the forever never ending story, right? And in software right suite, whereas best of breed and so far in the long run suites have always won, right? So, and sometimes they struggle again because the inherent problem of sweets is you build something larger, it has more complexity and that means your cycles to get everything working together to integrate the test that roll it out, certify whatever it is, takes you longer, right? And that's not the case. It's a fascinating part of what the effort around my SQL heat wave is that the team is out executing the previous best of breed data, bringing us something together. Now if they can maintain that pace, that's something to to, to be seen. But it, the strategy, like what Mark was saying, bring the software to the data is of course interesting and unique and totally an Oracle issue in the past, right? >>Yeah. But it had to be in your database on oci. And but at, that's an interesting part. The interesting thing on the Lake health side is, right, there's three key benefits of a lakehouse. The first one is better reporting analytics, bring more rich information together, like make the, the, the case for silicon angle, right? We want to see engagements for this video, we want to know what's happening. That's a mixed transactional video media use case, right? Typical Lakehouse use case. The next one is to build more rich applications, transactional applications which have video and these elements in there, which are the engaging one. And the third one, and that's where I'm a little critical and concerned, is it's really the base platform for artificial intelligence, right? To run deep learning to run things automatically because they have all the data in one place can create in one way. >>And that's where Oracle, I know that Ron talked about Invidia for a moment, but that's where Oracle doesn't have the strongest best story. Nonetheless, the two other main use cases of the lake house are very strong, very well only concern is four 50 terabyte sounds long. It's an arbitrary limitation. Yeah, sounds as big. So for the start, and it's the first word, they can make that bigger. You don't want your lake house to be limited and the terabyte sizes or any even petabyte size because you want to have the certainty. I can put everything in there that I think it might be relevant without knowing what questions to ask and query those questions. >>Yeah. And you know, in the early days of no schema on right, it just became a mess. But now technology has evolved to allow us to actually get more value out of that data. Data lake. Data swamp is, you know, not much more, more, more, more logical. But, and I want to get in, in a moment, I want to come back to how you think the competitors are gonna respond. Are they gonna have to sort of do a more of a converged approach? AWS in particular? But before I do, Ron, I want to ask you a question about autopilot because I heard Larry Ellison's keynote and he was talking about how, you know, most security issues are human errors with autonomy and autonomous database and things like autopilot. We take care of that. It's like autonomous vehicles, they're gonna be safer. And I went, well maybe, maybe someday. So Oracle really tries to emphasize this, that every time you see an announcement from Oracle, they talk about new, you know, autonomous capabilities. It, how legit is it? Do people care? What about, you know, what's new for heatwave Lakehouse? How much of a differentiator, Ron, do you really think autopilot is in this cloud database space? >>Yeah, I think it will definitely enhance the overall proposition. I don't think people are gonna buy, you know, lake house exclusively cause of autopilot capabilities, but when they look at the overall picture, I think it will be an added capability bonus to Oracle's benefit. And yeah, I think it's kind of one of these age old questions, how much do you automate and what is the bounce to strike? And I think we all understand with the automatic car, autonomous car analogy that there are limitations to being able to use that. However, I think it's a tool that basically every organization out there needs to at least have or at least evaluate because it goes to the point of it helps with ease of use, it helps make automation more balanced in terms of, you know, being able to test, all right, let's automate this process and see if it works well, then we can go on and switch on on autopilot for other processes. >>And then, you know, that allows, for example, the specialists to spend more time on business use cases versus, you know, manual maintenance of, of the cloud database and so forth. So I think that actually is a, a legitimate value proposition. I think it's just gonna be a case by case basis. Some organizations are gonna be more aggressive with putting automation throughout their processes throughout their organization. Others are gonna be more cautious. But it's gonna be, again, something that will help the overall Oracle proposition. And something that I think will be used with caution by many organizations, but other organizations are gonna like, hey, great, this is something that is really answering a real problem. And that is just easing the use of these databases, but also being able to better handle the automation capabilities and benefits that come with it without having, you know, a major screwup happened and the process of transitioning to more automated capabilities. >>Now, I didn't attend cloud world, it's just too many red eyes, you know, recently, so I passed. But one of the things I like to do at those events is talk to customers, you know, in the spirit of the truth, you know, they, you know, you'd have the hallway, you know, track and to talk to customers and they say, Hey, you know, here's the good, the bad and the ugly. So did you guys, did you talk to any customers my SQL Heatwave customers at, at cloud world? And and what did you learn? I don't know, Mark, did you, did you have any luck and, and having some, some private conversations? >>Yeah, I had quite a few private conversations. The one thing before I get to that, I want disagree with one point Ron made, I do believe there are customers out there buying the heat wave service, the MySEQ heat wave server service because of autopilot. Because autopilot is really revolutionary in many ways in the sense for the MySEQ developer in that it, it auto provisions, it auto parallel loads, IT auto data places it auto shape predictions. It can tell you what machine learning models are going to tell you, gonna give you your best results. And, and candidly, I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't wanna give up pedantic tasks that are pain in the kahoo, which they'd rather not do and if it's long as it was done right for them. So yes, I do think people are buying it because of autopilot and that's based on some of the conversations I had with customers at Oracle Cloud World. >>In fact, it was like, yeah, that's great, yeah, we get fantastic performance, but this really makes my life easier and I've yet to meet a DBA who didn't want to make their life easier. And it does. So yeah, I've talked to a few of them. They were excited. I asked them if they ran into any bugs, were there any difficulties in moving to it? And the answer was no. In both cases, it's interesting to note, my sequel is the most popular database on the planet. Well, some will argue that it's neck and neck with SQL Server, but if you add in Mariah DB and ProCon db, which are forks of MySQL, then yeah, by far and away it's the most popular. And as a result of that, everybody for the most part has typically a my sequel database somewhere in their organization. So this is a brilliant situation for anybody going after MyQ, but especially for heat wave. And the customers I talk to love it. I didn't find anybody complaining about it. And >>What about the migration? We talked about TCO earlier. Did your t does your TCO analysis include the migration cost or do you kind of conveniently leave that out or what? >>Well, when you look at migration costs, there are different kinds of migration costs. By the way, the worst job in the data center is the data migration manager. Forget it, no other job is as bad as that one. You get no attaboys for doing it. Right? And then when you screw up, oh boy. So in real terms, anything that can limit data migration is a good thing. And when you look at Data Lake, that limits data migration. So if you're already a MySEQ user, this is a pure MySQL as far as you're concerned. It's just a, a simple transition from one to the other. You may wanna make sure nothing broke and every you, all your tables are correct and your schema's, okay, but it's all the same. So it's a simple migration. So it's pretty much a non-event, right? When you migrate data from an O LTP to an O L A P, that's an ETL and that's gonna take time. >>But you don't have to do that with my SQL heat wave. So that's gone when you start talking about machine learning, again, you may have an etl, you may not, depending on the circumstances, but again, with my SQL heat wave, you don't, and you don't have duplicate storage, you don't have to copy it from one storage container to another to be able to be used in a different database, which by the way, ultimately adds much more cost than just the other service. So yeah, I looked at the migration and again, the users I talked to said it was a non-event. It was literally moving from one physical machine to another. If they had a new version of MySEQ running on something else and just wanted to migrate it over or just hook it up or just connect it to the data, it worked just fine. >>Okay, so every day it sounds like you guys feel, and we've certainly heard this, my colleague David Foyer, the semi-retired David Foyer was always very high on heatwave. So I think you knows got some real legitimacy here coming from a standing start, but I wanna talk about the competition, how they're likely to respond. I mean, if your AWS and you got heatwave is now in your cloud, so there's some good aspects of that. The database guys might not like that, but the infrastructure guys probably love it. Hey, more ways to sell, you know, EC two and graviton, but you're gonna, the database guys in AWS are gonna respond. They're gonna say, Hey, we got Redshift, we got aqua. What's your thoughts on, on not only how that's gonna resonate with customers, but I'm interested in what you guys think will a, I never say never about aws, you know, and are they gonna try to build, in your view a converged Oola and o LTP database? You know, Snowflake is taking an ecosystem approach. They've added in transactional capabilities to the portfolio so they're not standing still. What do you guys see in the competitive landscape in that regard going forward? Maybe Holger, you could start us off and anybody else who wants to can chime in, >>Happy to, you mentioned Snowflake last, we'll start there. I think Snowflake is imitating that strategy, right? That building out original data warehouse and the clouds tasking project to really proposition to have other data available there because AI is relevant for everybody. Ultimately people keep data in the cloud for ultimately running ai. So you see the same suite kind of like level strategy, it's gonna be a little harder because of the original positioning. How much would people know that you're doing other stuff? And I just, as a former developer manager of developers, I just don't see the speed at the moment happening at Snowflake to become really competitive to Oracle. On the flip side, putting my Oracle hat on for a moment back to you, Mark and Iran, right? What could Oracle still add? Because the, the big big things, right? The traditional chasms in the database world, they have built everything, right? >>So I, I really scratched my hat and gave Nipon a hard time at Cloud world say like, what could you be building? Destiny was very conservative. Let's get the Lakehouse thing done, it's gonna spring next year, right? And the AWS is really hard because AWS value proposition is these small innovation teams, right? That they build two pizza teams, which can be fit by two pizzas, not large teams, right? And you need suites to large teams to build these suites with lots of functionalities to make sure they work together. They're consistent, they have the same UX on the administration side, they can consume the same way, they have the same API registry, can't even stop going where the synergy comes to play over suite. So, so it's gonna be really, really hard for them to change that. But AWS super pragmatic. They're always by themselves that they'll listen to customers if they learn from customers suite as a proposition. I would not be surprised if AWS trying to bring things closer together, being morely together. >>Yeah. Well how about, can we talk about multicloud if, if, again, Oracle is very on on Oracle as you said before, but let's look forward, you know, half a year or a year. What do you think about Oracle's moves in, in multicloud in terms of what kind of penetration they're gonna have in the marketplace? You saw a lot of presentations at at cloud world, you know, we've looked pretty closely at the, the Microsoft Azure deal. I think that's really interesting. I've, I've called it a little bit of early days of a super cloud. What impact do you think this is gonna have on, on the marketplace? But, but both. And think about it within Oracle's customer base, I have no doubt they'll do great there. But what about beyond its existing install base? What do you guys think? >>Ryan, do you wanna jump on that? Go ahead. Go ahead Ryan. No, no, no, >>That's an excellent point. I think it aligns with what we've been talking about in terms of Lakehouse. I think Lake House will enable Oracle to pull more customers, more bicycle customers onto the Oracle platforms. And I think we're seeing all the signs pointing toward Oracle being able to make more inroads into the overall market. And that includes garnishing customers from the leaders in, in other words, because they are, you know, coming in as a innovator, a an alternative to, you know, the AWS proposition, the Google cloud proposition that they have less to lose and there's a result they can really drive the multi-cloud messaging to resonate with not only their existing customers, but also to be able to, to that question, Dave's posing actually garnish customers onto their platform. And, and that includes naturally my sequel but also OCI and so forth. So that's how I'm seeing this playing out. I think, you know, again, Oracle's reporting is indicating that, and I think what we saw, Oracle Cloud world is definitely validating the idea that Oracle can make more waves in the overall market in this regard. >>You know, I, I've floated this idea of Super cloud, it's kind of tongue in cheek, but, but there, I think there is some merit to it in terms of building on top of hyperscale infrastructure and abstracting some of the, that complexity. And one of the things that I'm most interested in is industry clouds and an Oracle acquisition of Cerner. I was struck by Larry Ellison's keynote, it was like, I don't know, an hour and a half and an hour and 15 minutes was focused on healthcare transformation. Well, >>So vertical, >>Right? And so, yeah, so you got Oracle's, you know, got some industry chops and you, and then you think about what they're building with, with not only oci, but then you got, you know, MyQ, you can now run in dedicated regions. You got ADB on on Exadata cloud to customer, you can put that OnPrem in in your data center and you look at what the other hyperscalers are, are doing. I I say other hyperscalers, I've always said Oracle's not really a hyperscaler, but they got a cloud so they're in the game. But you can't get, you know, big query OnPrem, you look at outposts, it's very limited in terms of, you know, the database support and again, that that will will evolve. But now you got Oracle's got, they announced Alloy, we can white label their cloud. So I'm interested in what you guys think about these moves, especially the industry cloud. We see, you know, Walmart is doing sort of their own cloud. You got Goldman Sachs doing a cloud. Do you, you guys, what do you think about that and what role does Oracle play? Any thoughts? >>Yeah, let me lemme jump on that for a moment. Now, especially with the MyQ, by making that available in multiple clouds, what they're doing is this follows the philosophy they've had the past with doing cloud, a customer taking the application and the data and putting it where the customer lives. If it's on premise, it's on premise. If it's in the cloud, it's in the cloud. By making the mice equal heat wave, essentially a plug compatible with any other mice equal as far as your, your database is concern and then giving you that integration with O L A P and ML and Data Lake and everything else, then what you've got is a compelling offering. You're making it easier for the customer to use. So I look the difference between MyQ and the Oracle database, MyQ is going to capture market more market share for them. >>You're not gonna find a lot of new users for the Oracle debate database. Yeah, there are always gonna be new users, don't get me wrong, but it's not gonna be a huge growth. Whereas my SQL heatwave is probably gonna be a major growth engine for Oracle going forward. Not just in their own cloud, but in AWS and in Azure and on premise over time that eventually it'll get there. It's not there now, but it will, they're doing the right thing on that basis. They're taking the services and when you talk about multicloud and making them available where the customer wants them, not forcing them to go where you want them, if that makes sense. And as far as where they're going in the future, I think they're gonna take a page outta what they've done with the Oracle database. They'll add things like JSON and XML and time series and spatial over time they'll make it a, a complete converged database like they did with the Oracle database. The difference being Oracle database will scale bigger and will have more transactions and be somewhat faster. And my SQL will be, for anyone who's not on the Oracle database, they're, they're not stupid, that's for sure. >>They've done Jason already. Right. But I give you that they could add graph and time series, right. Since eat with, Right, Right. Yeah, that's something absolutely right. That's, that's >>A sort of a logical move, right? >>Right. But that's, that's some kid ourselves, right? I mean has worked in Oracle's favor, right? 10 x 20 x, the amount of r and d, which is in the MyQ space, has been poured at trying to snatch workloads away from Oracle by starting with IBM 30 years ago, 20 years ago, Microsoft and, and, and, and didn't work, right? Database applications are extremely sticky when they run, you don't want to touch SIM and grow them, right? So that doesn't mean that heat phase is not an attractive offering, but it will be net new things, right? And what works in my SQL heat wave heat phases favor a little bit is it's not the massive enterprise applications which have like we the nails like, like you might be only running 30% or Oracle, but the connections and the interfaces into that is, is like 70, 80% of your enterprise. >>You take it out and it's like the spaghetti ball where you say, ah, no I really don't, don't want to do all that. Right? You don't, don't have that massive part with the equals heat phase sequel kind of like database which are more smaller tactical in comparison, but still I, I don't see them taking so much share. They will be growing because of a attractive value proposition quickly on the, the multi-cloud, right? I think it's not really multi-cloud. If you give people the chance to run your offering on different clouds, right? You can run it there. The multi-cloud advantages when the Uber offering comes out, which allows you to do things across those installations, right? I can migrate data, I can create data across something like Google has done with B query Omni, I can run predictive models or even make iron models in different place and distribute them, right? And Oracle is paving the road for that, but being available on these clouds. But the multi-cloud capability of database which knows I'm running on different clouds that is still yet to be built there. >>Yeah. And >>That the problem with >>That, that's the super cloud concept that I flowed and I I've always said kinda snowflake with a single global instance is sort of, you know, headed in that direction and maybe has a league. What's the issue with that mark? >>Yeah, the problem with the, with that version, the multi-cloud is clouds to charge egress fees. As long as they charge egress fees to move data between clouds, it's gonna make it very difficult to do a real multi-cloud implementation. Even Snowflake, which runs multi-cloud, has to pass out on the egress fees of their customer when data moves between clouds. And that's really expensive. I mean there, there is one customer I talked to who is beta testing for them, the MySQL heatwave and aws. The only reason they didn't want to do that until it was running on AWS is the egress fees were so great to move it to OCI that they couldn't afford it. Yeah. Egress fees are the big issue but, >>But Mark the, the point might be you might wanna root query and only get the results set back, right was much more tinier, which been the answer before for low latency between the class A problem, which we sometimes still have but mostly don't have. Right? And I think in general this with fees coming down based on the Oracle general E with fee move and it's very hard to justify those, right? But, but it's, it's not about moving data as a multi-cloud high value use case. It's about doing intelligent things with that data, right? Putting into other places, replicating it, what I'm saying the same thing what you said before, running remote queries on that, analyzing it, running AI on it, running AI models on that. That's the interesting thing. Cross administered in the same way. Taking things out, making sure compliance happens. Making sure when Ron says I don't want to be American anymore, I want to be in the European cloud that is gets migrated, right? So tho those are the interesting value use case which are really, really hard for enterprise to program hand by hand by developers and they would love to have out of the box and that's yet the innovation to come to, we have to come to see. But the first step to get there is that your software runs in multiple clouds and that's what Oracle's doing so well with my SQL >>Guys. Amazing. >>Go ahead. Yeah. >>Yeah. >>For example, >>Amazing amount of data knowledge and, and brain power in this market. Guys, I really want to thank you for coming on to the cube. Ron Holger. Mark, always a pleasure to have you on. Really appreciate your time. >>Well all the last names we're very happy for Romanic last and moderator. Thanks Dave for moderating us. All right, >>We'll see. We'll see you guys around. Safe travels to all and thank you for watching this power panel, The Truth About My SQL Heat Wave on the cube. Your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> The stampede to cloud and massive VC investments has led to the emergence of a new generation of object store based data lakes. And with them two important trends, actually three important trends. First, a new category that combines data lakes and data warehouses aka the lakehouse is emerged as a leading contender to be the data platform of the future. And this novelty touts the ability to address data engineering, data science, and data warehouse workloads on a single shared data platform. The other major trend we've seen is query engines and broader data fabric virtualization platforms have embraced NextGen data lakes as platforms for SQL centric business intelligence workloads, reducing, or somebody even claim eliminating the need for separate data warehouses. Pretty bold. However, cloud data warehouses have added complimentary technologies to bridge the gaps with lakehouses. And the third is many, if not most customers that are embracing the so-called data fabric or data mesh architectures. They're looking at data lakes as a fundamental component of their strategies, and they're trying to evolve them to be more capable, hence the interest in lakehouse, but at the same time, they don't want to, or can't abandon their data warehouse estate. As such we see a battle royale is brewing between cloud data warehouses and cloud lakehouses. Is it possible to do it all with one cloud center analytical data platform? Well, we're going to find out. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to the data platform's power panel on theCUBE. Our next episode in a series where we gather some of the industry's top analysts to talk about one of our favorite topics, data. In today's session, we'll discuss trends, emerging options, and the trade offs of various approaches and we'll name names. Joining us today are Sanjeev Mohan, who's the principal at SanjMo, Tony Baers, principal at dbInsight. And Doug Henschen is the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank guys. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So it's early June and we're gearing up with two major conferences, there's several database conferences, but two in particular that were very interested in, Snowflake Summit and Databricks Data and AI Summit. Doug let's start off with you and then Tony and Sanjeev, if you could kindly weigh in. Where did this all start, Doug? The notion of lakehouse. And let's talk about what exactly we mean by lakehouse. Go ahead. >> Yeah, well you nailed it in your intro. One platform to address BI data science, data engineering, fewer platforms, less cost, less complexity, very compelling. You can credit Databricks for coining the term lakehouse back in 2020, but it's really a much older idea. You can go back to Cloudera introducing their Impala database in 2012. That was a database on top of Hadoop. And indeed in that last decade, by the middle of that last decade, there were several SQL on Hadoop products, open standards like Apache Drill. And at the same time, the database vendors were trying to respond to this interest in machine learning and the data science. So they were adding SQL extensions, the likes Hudi and Vertical we're adding SQL extensions to support the data science. But then later in that decade with the shift to cloud and object storage, you saw the vendor shift to this whole cloud, and object storage idea. So you have in the database camp Snowflake introduce Snowpark to try to address the data science needs. They introduced that in 2020 and last year they announced support for Python. You also had Oracle, SAP jumped on this lakehouse idea last year, supporting both the lake and warehouse single vendor, not necessarily quite single platform. Google very recently also jumped on the bandwagon. And then you also mentioned, the SQL engine camp, the Dremios, the Ahanas, the Starbursts, really doing two things, a fabric for distributed access to many data sources, but also very firmly planning that idea that you can just have the lake and we'll help you do the BI workloads on that. And then of course, the data lake camp with the Databricks and Clouderas providing a warehouse style deployments on top of their lake platforms. >> Okay, thanks, Doug. I'd be remiss those of you who me know that I typically write my own intros. This time my colleagues fed me a lot of that material. So thank you. You guys make it easy. But Tony, give us your thoughts on this intro. >> Right. Well, I very much agree with both of you, which may not make for the most exciting television in terms of that it has been an evolution just like Doug said. I mean, for instance, just to give an example when Teradata bought AfterData was initially seen as a hardware platform play. In the end, it was basically, it was all those after functions that made a lot of sort of big data analytics accessible to SQL. (clears throat) And so what I really see just in a more simpler definition or functional definition, the data lakehouse is really an attempt by the data lake folks to make the data lake friendlier territory to the SQL folks, and also to get into friendly territory, to all the data stewards, who are basically concerned about the sprawl and the lack of control in governance in the data lake. So it's really kind of a continuing of an ongoing trend that being said, there's no action without counter action. And of course, at the other end of the spectrum, we also see a lot of the data warehouses starting to edit things like in database machine learning. So they're certainly not surrendering without a fight. Again, as Doug was mentioning, this has been part of a continual blending of platforms that we've seen over the years that we first saw in the Hadoop years with SQL on Hadoop and data warehouses starting to reach out to cloud storage or should say the HDFS and then with the cloud then going cloud native and therefore trying to break the silos down even further. >> Now, thank you. And Sanjeev, data lakes, when we first heard about them, there were such a compelling name, and then we realized all the problems associated with them. So pick it up from there. What would you add to Doug and Tony? >> I would say, these are excellent points that Doug and Tony have brought to light. The concept of lakehouse was going on to your point, Dave, a long time ago, long before the tone was invented. For example, in Uber, Uber was trying to do a mix of Hadoop and Vertical because what they really needed were transactional capabilities that Hadoop did not have. So they weren't calling it the lakehouse, they were using multiple technologies, but now they're able to collapse it into a single data store that we call lakehouse. Data lakes, excellent at batch processing large volumes of data, but they don't have the real time capabilities such as change data capture, doing inserts and updates. So this is why lakehouse has become so important because they give us these transactional capabilities. >> Great. So I'm interested, the name is great, lakehouse. The concept is powerful, but I get concerned that it's a lot of marketing hype behind it. So I want to examine that a bit deeper. How mature is the concept of lakehouse? Are there practical examples that really exist in the real world that are driving business results for practitioners? Tony, maybe you could kick that off. >> Well, put it this way. I think what's interesting is that both data lakes and data warehouse that each had to extend themselves. To believe the Databricks hype it's that this was just a natural extension of the data lake. In point of fact, Databricks had to go outside its core technology of Spark to make the lakehouse possible. And it's a very similar type of thing on the part with data warehouse folks, in terms of that they've had to go beyond SQL, In the case of Databricks. There have been a number of incremental improvements to Delta lake, to basically make the table format more performative, for instance. But the other thing, I think the most dramatic change in all that is in their SQL engine and they had to essentially pretty much abandon Spark SQL because it really, in off itself Spark SQL is essentially stop gap solution. And if they wanted to really address that crowd, they had to totally reinvent SQL or at least their SQL engine. And so Databricks SQL is not Spark SQL, it is not Spark, it's basically SQL that it's adapted to run in a Spark environment, but the underlying engine is C++, it's not scale or anything like that. So Databricks had to take a major detour outside of its core platform to do this. So to answer your question, this is not mature because these are all basically kind of, even though the idea of blending platforms has been going on for well over a decade, I would say that the current iteration is still fairly immature. And in the cloud, I could see a further evolution of this because if you think through cloud native architecture where you're essentially abstracting compute from data, there is no reason why, if let's say you are dealing with say, the same basically data targets say cloud storage, cloud object storage that you might not apportion the task to different compute engines. And so therefore you could have, for instance, let's say you're Google, you could have BigQuery, perform basically the types of the analytics, the SQL analytics that would be associated with the data warehouse and you could have BigQuery ML that does some in database machine learning, but at the same time for another part of the query, which might involve, let's say some deep learning, just for example, you might go out to let's say the serverless spark service or the data proc. And there's no reason why Google could not blend all those into a coherent offering that's basically all triggered through microservices. And I just gave Google as an example, if you could generalize that with all the other cloud or all the other third party vendors. So I think we're still very early in the game in terms of maturity of data lakehouses. >> Thanks, Tony. So Sanjeev, is this all hype? What are your thoughts? >> It's not hype, but completely agree. It's not mature yet. Lakehouses have still a lot of work to do, so what I'm now starting to see is that the world is dividing into two camps. On one hand, there are people who don't want to deal with the operational aspects of vast amounts of data. They are the ones who are going for BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Synapse, and so on because they want the platform to handle all the data modeling, access control, performance enhancements, but these are trade off. If you go with these platforms, then you are giving up on vendor neutrality. On the other side are those who have engineering skills. They want the independence. In other words, they don't want vendor lock in. They want to transform their data into any number of use cases, especially data science, machine learning use case. What they want is agility via open file formats using any compute engine. So why do I say lakehouses are not mature? Well, cloud data warehouses they provide you an excellent user experience. That is the main reason why Snowflake took off. If you have thousands of cables, it takes minutes to get them started, uploaded into your warehouse and start experimentation. Table formats are far more resonating with the community than file formats. But once the cost goes up of cloud data warehouse, then the organization start exploring lakehouses. But the problem is lakehouses still need to do a lot of work on metadata. Apache Hive was a fantastic first attempt at it. Even today Apache Hive is still very strong, but it's all technical metadata and it has so many different restrictions. That's why we see Databricks is investing into something called Unity Catalog. Hopefully we'll hear more about Unity Catalog at the end of the month. But there's a second problem. I just want to mention, and that is lack of standards. All these open source vendors, they're running, what I call ego projects. You see on LinkedIn, they're constantly battling with each other, but end user doesn't care. End user wants a problem to be solved. They want to use Trino, Dremio, Spark from EMR, Databricks, Ahana, DaaS, Frink, Athena. But the problem is that we don't have common standards. >> Right. Thanks. So Doug, I worry sometimes. I mean, I look at the space, we've debated for years, best of breed versus the full suite. You see AWS with whatever, 12 different plus data stores and different APIs and primitives. You got Oracle putting everything into its database. It's actually done some interesting things with MySQL HeatWave, so maybe there's proof points there, but Snowflake really good at data warehouse, simplifying data warehouse. Databricks, really good at making lakehouses actually more functional. Can one platform do it all? >> Well in a word, I can't be best at breed at all things. I think the upshot of and cogen analysis from Sanjeev there, the database, the vendors coming out of the database tradition, they excel at the SQL. They're extending it into data science, but when it comes to unstructured data, data science, ML AI often a compromise, the data lake crowd, the Databricks and such. They've struggled to completely displace the data warehouse when it really gets to the tough SLAs, they acknowledge that there's still a role for the warehouse. Maybe you can size down the warehouse and offload some of the BI workloads and maybe and some of these SQL engines, good for ad hoc, minimize data movement. But really when you get to the deep service level, a requirement, the high concurrency, the high query workloads, you end up creating something that's warehouse like. >> Where do you guys think this market is headed? What's going to take hold? Which projects are going to fade away? You got some things in Apache projects like Hudi and Iceberg, where do they fit Sanjeev? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> So thank you, Dave. So I feel that table formats are starting to mature. There is a lot of work that's being done. We will not have a single product or single platform. We'll have a mixture. So I see a lot of Apache Iceberg in the news. Apache Iceberg is really innovating. Their focus is on a table format, but then Delta and Apache Hudi are doing a lot of deep engineering work. For example, how do you handle high concurrency when there are multiple rights going on? Do you version your Parquet files or how do you do your upcerts basically? So different focus, at the end of the day, the end user will decide what is the right platform, but we are going to have multiple formats living with us for a long time. >> Doug is Iceberg in your view, something that's going to address some of those gaps in standards that Sanjeev was talking about earlier? >> Yeah, Delta lake, Hudi, Iceberg, they all address this need for consistency and scalability, Delta lake open technically, but open for access. I don't hear about Delta lakes in any worlds, but Databricks, hearing a lot of buzz about Apache Iceberg. End users want an open performance standard. And most recently Google embraced Iceberg for its recent a big lake, their stab at having supporting both lakes and warehouses on one conjoined platform. >> And Tony, of course, you remember the early days of the sort of big data movement you had MapR was the most closed. You had Horton works the most open. You had Cloudera in between. There was always this kind of contest as to who's the most open. Does that matter? Are we going to see a repeat of that here? >> I think it's spheres of influence, I think, and Doug very much was kind of referring to this. I would call it kind of like the MongoDB syndrome, which is that you have... and I'm talking about MongoDB before they changed their license, open source project, but very much associated with MongoDB, which basically, pretty much controlled most of the contributions made decisions. And I think Databricks has the same iron cloud hold on Delta lake, but still the market is pretty much associated Delta lake as the Databricks, open source project. I mean, Iceberg is probably further advanced than Hudi in terms of mind share. And so what I see that's breaking down to is essentially, basically the Databricks open source versus the everything else open source, the community open source. So I see it's a very similar type of breakdown that I see repeating itself here. >> So by the way, Mongo has a conference next week, another data platform is kind of not really relevant to this discussion totally. But in the sense it is because there's a lot of discussion on earnings calls these last couple of weeks about consumption and who's exposed, obviously people are concerned about Snowflake's consumption model. Mongo is maybe less exposed because Atlas is prominent in the portfolio, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring up the little bit of controversy that we saw come out of the Snowflake earnings call, where the ever core analyst asked Frank Klutman about discretionary spend. And Frank basically said, look, we're not discretionary. We are deeply operationalized. Whereas he kind of poo-pooed the lakehouse or the data lake, et cetera, saying, oh yeah, data scientists will pull files out and play with them. That's really not our business. Do any of you have comments on that? Help us swing through that controversy. Who wants to take that one? >> Let's put it this way. The SQL folks are from Venus and the data scientists are from Mars. So it means it really comes down to it, sort that type of perception. The fact is, is that, traditionally with analytics, it was very SQL oriented and that basically the quants were kind of off in their corner, where they're using SaaS or where they're using Teradata. It's really a great leveler today, which is that, I mean basic Python it's become arguably one of the most popular programming languages, depending on what month you're looking at, at the title index. And of course, obviously SQL is, as I tell the MongoDB folks, SQL is not going away. You have a large skills base out there. And so basically I see this breaking down to essentially, you're going to have each group that's going to have its own natural preferences for its home turf. And the fact that basically, let's say the Python and scale of folks are using Databricks does not make them any less operational or machine critical than the SQL folks. >> Anybody else want to chime in on that one? >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. Python support in Snowflake is very nascent with all of Snowpark, all of the things outside of SQL, they're very much relying on partners too and make things possible and make data science possible. And it's very early days. I think the bottom line, what we're going to see is each of these camps is going to keep working on doing better at the thing that they don't do today, or they're new to, but they're not going to nail it. They're not going to be best of breed on both sides. So the SQL centric companies and shops are going to do more data science on their database centric platform. That data science driven companies might be doing more BI on their leagues with those vendors and the companies that have highly distributed data, they're going to add fabrics, and maybe offload more of their BI onto those engines, like Dremio and Starburst. >> So I've asked you this before, but I'll ask you Sanjeev. 'Cause Snowflake and Databricks are such great examples 'cause you have the data engineering crowd trying to go into data warehousing and you have the data warehousing guys trying to go into the lake territory. Snowflake has $5 billion in the balance sheet and I've asked you before, I ask you again, doesn't there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds? Does Snowflake go out and do M&A and maybe buy ad scale or a data mirror? Or is that just sort of a bandaid? What are your thoughts on that Sanjeev? >> I think semantic layer is the metadata. The business metadata is extremely important. At the end of the day, the business folks, they'd rather go to the business metadata than have to figure out, for example, like let's say, I want to update somebody's email address and we have a lot of overhead with data residency laws and all that. I want my platform to give me the business metadata so I can write my business logic without having to worry about which database, which location. So having that semantic layer is extremely important. In fact, now we are taking it to the next level. Now we are saying that it's not just a semantic layer, it's all my KPIs, all my calculations. So how can I make those calculations independent of the compute engine, independent of the BI tool and make them fungible. So more disaggregation of the stack, but it gives us more best of breed products that the customers have to worry about. >> So I want to ask you about the stack, the modern data stack, if you will. And we always talk about injecting machine intelligence, AI into applications, making them more data driven. But when you look at the application development stack, it's separate, the database is tends to be separate from the data and analytics stack. Do those two worlds have to come together in the modern data world? And what does that look like organizationally? >> So organizationally even technically I think it is starting to happen. Microservices architecture was a first attempt to bring the application and the data world together, but they are fundamentally different things. For example, if an application crashes, that's horrible, but Kubernetes will self heal and it'll bring the application back up. But if a database crashes and corrupts your data, we have a huge problem. So that's why they have traditionally been two different stacks. They are starting to come together, especially with data ops, for instance, versioning of the way we write business logic. It used to be, a business logic was highly embedded into our database of choice, but now we are disaggregating that using GitHub, CICD the whole DevOps tool chain. So data is catching up to the way applications are. >> We also have databases, that trans analytical databases that's a little bit of what the story is with MongoDB next week with adding more analytical capabilities. But I think companies that talk about that are always careful to couch it as operational analytics, not the warehouse level workloads. So we're making progress, but I think there's always going to be, or there will long be a separate analytical data platform. >> Until data mesh takes over. (all laughing) Not opening a can of worms. >> Well, but wait, I know it's out of scope here, but wouldn't data mesh say, hey, do take your best of breed to Doug's earlier point. You can't be best of breed at everything, wouldn't data mesh advocate, data lakes do your data lake thing, data warehouse, do your data lake, then you're just a node on the mesh. (Tony laughs) Now you need separate data stores and you need separate teams. >> To my point. >> I think, I mean, put it this way. (laughs) Data mesh itself is a logical view of the world. The data mesh is not necessarily on the lake or on the warehouse. I think for me, the fear there is more in terms of, the silos of governance that could happen and the silo views of the world, how we redefine. And that's why and I want to go back to something what Sanjeev said, which is that it's going to be raising the importance of the semantic layer. Now does Snowflake that opens a couple of Pandora's boxes here, which is one, does Snowflake dare go into that space or do they risk basically alienating basically their partner ecosystem, which is a key part of their whole appeal, which is best of breed. They're kind of the same situation that Informatica was where in the early 2000s, when Informatica briefly flirted with analytic applications and realized that was not a good idea, need to redouble down on their core, which was data integration. The other thing though, that raises the importance of and this is where the best of breed comes in, is the data fabric. My contention is that and whether you use employee data mesh practice or not, if you do employee data mesh, you need data fabric. If you deploy data fabric, you don't necessarily need to practice data mesh. But data fabric at its core and admittedly it's a category that's still very poorly defined and evolving, but at its core, we're talking about a common meta data back plane, something that we used to talk about with master data management, this would be something that would be more what I would say basically, mutable, that would be more evolving, basically using, let's say, machine learning to kind of, so that we don't have to predefine rules or predefine what the world looks like. But so I think in the long run, what this really means is that whichever way we implement on whichever physical platform we implement, we need to all be speaking the same metadata language. And I think at the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a lake, warehouse or a lakehouse, we need common metadata. >> Doug, can I come back to something you pointed out? That those talking about bringing analytic and transaction databases together, you had talked about operationalizing those and the caution there. Educate me on MySQL HeatWave. I was surprised when Oracle put so much effort in that, and you may or may not be familiar with it, but a lot of folks have talked about that. Now it's got nowhere in the market, that no market share, but a lot of we've seen these benchmarks from Oracle. How real is that bringing together those two worlds and eliminating ETL? >> Yeah, I have to defer on that one. That's my colleague, Holger Mueller. He wrote the report on that. He's way deep on it and I'm not going to mock him. >> I wonder if that is something, how real that is or if it's just Oracle marketing, anybody have any thoughts on that? >> I'm pretty familiar with HeatWave. It's essentially Oracle doing what, I mean, there's kind of a parallel with what Google's doing with AlloyDB. It's an operational database that will have some embedded analytics. And it's also something which I expect to start seeing with MongoDB. And I think basically, Doug and Sanjeev were kind of referring to this before about basically kind of like the operational analytics, that are basically embedded within an operational database. The idea here is that the last thing you want to do with an operational database is slow it down. So you're not going to be doing very complex deep learning or anything like that, but you might be doing things like classification, you might be doing some predictives. In other words, we've just concluded a transaction with this customer, but was it less than what we were expecting? What does that mean in terms of, is this customer likely to turn? I think we're going to be seeing a lot of that. And I think that's what a lot of what MySQL HeatWave is all about. Whether Oracle has any presence in the market now it's still a pretty new announcement, but the other thing that kind of goes against Oracle, (laughs) that they had to battle against is that even though they own MySQL and run the open source project, everybody else, in terms of the actual commercial implementation it's associated with everybody else. And the popular perception has been that MySQL has been basically kind of like a sidelight for Oracle. And so it's on Oracles shoulders to prove that they're damn serious about it. >> There's no coincidence that MariaDB was launched the day that Oracle acquired Sun. Sanjeev, I wonder if we could come back to a topic that we discussed earlier, which is this notion of consumption, obviously Wall Street's very concerned about it. Snowflake dropped prices last week. I've always felt like, hey, the consumption model is the right model. I can dial it down in when I need to, of course, the street freaks out. What are your thoughts on just pricing, the consumption model? What's the right model for companies, for customers? >> Consumption model is here to stay. What I would like to see, and I think is an ideal situation and actually plays into the lakehouse concept is that, I have my data in some open format, maybe it's Parquet or CSV or JSON, Avro, and I can bring whatever engine is the best engine for my workloads, bring it on, pay for consumption, and then shut it down. And by the way, that could be Cloudera. We don't talk about Cloudera very much, but it could be one business unit wants to use Athena. Another business unit wants to use some other Trino let's say or Dremio. So every business unit is working on the same data set, see that's critical, but that data set is maybe in their VPC and they bring any compute engine, you pay for the use, shut it down. That then you're getting value and you're only paying for consumption. It's not like, I left a cluster running by mistake, so there have to be guardrails. The reason FinOps is so big is because it's very easy for me to run a Cartesian joint in the cloud and get a $10,000 bill. >> This looks like it's been a sort of a victim of its own success in some ways, they made it so easy to spin up single note instances, multi note instances. And back in the day when compute was scarce and costly, those database engines optimized every last bit so they could get as much workload as possible out of every instance. Today, it's really easy to spin up a new node, a new multi node cluster. So that freedom has meant many more nodes that aren't necessarily getting that utilization. So Snowflake has been doing a lot to add reporting, monitoring, dashboards around the utilization of all the nodes and multi node instances that have spun up. And meanwhile, we're seeing some of the traditional on-prem databases that are moving into the cloud, trying to offer that freedom. And I think they're going to have that same discovery that the cost surprises are going to follow as they make it easy to spin up new instances. >> Yeah, a lot of money went into this market over the last decade, separating compute from storage, moving to the cloud. I'm glad you mentioned Cloudera Sanjeev, 'cause they got it all started, the kind of big data movement. We don't talk about them that much. Sometimes I wonder if it's because when they merged Hortonworks and Cloudera, they dead ended both platforms, but then they did invest in a more modern platform. But what's the future of Cloudera? What are you seeing out there? >> Cloudera has a good product. I have to say the problem in our space is that there're way too many companies, there's way too much noise. We are expecting the end users to parse it out or we expecting analyst firms to boil it down. So I think marketing becomes a big problem. As far as technology is concerned, I think Cloudera did turn their selves around and Tony, I know you, you talked to them quite frequently. I think they have quite a comprehensive offering for a long time actually. They've created Kudu, so they got operational, they have Hadoop, they have an operational data warehouse, they're migrated to the cloud. They are in hybrid multi-cloud environment. Lot of cloud data warehouses are not hybrid. They're only in the cloud. >> Right. I think what Cloudera has done the most successful has been in the transition to the cloud and the fact that they're giving their customers more OnRamps to it, more hybrid OnRamps. So I give them a lot of credit there. They're also have been trying to position themselves as being the most price friendly in terms of that we will put more guardrails and governors on it. I mean, part of that could be spin. But on the other hand, they don't have the same vested interest in compute cycles as say, AWS would have with EMR. That being said, yes, Cloudera does it, I think its most powerful appeal so of that, it almost sounds in a way, I don't want to cast them as a legacy system. But the fact is they do have a huge landed legacy on-prem and still significant potential to land and expand that to the cloud. That being said, even though Cloudera is multifunction, I think it certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. And the fact this is that yes, Cloudera has an operational database or an operational data store with a kind of like the outgrowth of age base, but Cloudera is still based, primarily known for the deep analytics, the operational database nobody's going to buy Cloudera or Cloudera data platform strictly for the operational database. They may use it as an add-on, just in the same way that a lot of customers have used let's say Teradata basically to do some machine learning or let's say, Snowflake to parse through JSON. Again, it's not an indictment or anything like that, but the fact is obviously they do have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think their greatest opportunity is with their existing base because that base has a lot invested and vested. And the fact is they do have a hybrid path that a lot of the others lack. >> And of course being on the quarterly shock clock was not a good place to be under the microscope for Cloudera and now they at least can refactor the business accordingly. I'm glad you mentioned hybrid too. We saw Snowflake last month, did a deal with Dell whereby non-native Snowflake data could access on-prem object store from Dell. They announced a similar thing with pure storage. What do you guys make of that? Is that just... How significant will that be? Will customers actually do that? I think they're using either materialized views or extended tables. >> There are data rated and residency requirements. There are desires to have these platforms in your own data center. And finally they capitulated, I mean, Frank Klutman is famous for saying to be very focused and earlier, not many months ago, they called the going on-prem as a distraction, but clearly there's enough demand and certainly government contracts any company that has data residency requirements, it's a real need. So they finally addressed it. >> Yeah, I'll bet dollars to donuts, there was an EBC session and some big customer said, if you don't do this, we ain't doing business with you. And that was like, okay, we'll do it. >> So Dave, I have to say, earlier on you had brought this point, how Frank Klutman was poo-pooing data science workloads. On your show, about a year or so ago, he said, we are never going to on-prem. He burnt that bridge. (Tony laughs) That was on your show. >> I remember exactly the statement because it was interesting. He said, we're never going to do the halfway house. And I think what he meant is we're not going to bring the Snowflake architecture to run on-prem because it defeats the elasticity of the cloud. So this was kind of a capitulation in a way. But I think it still preserves his original intent sort of, I don't know. >> The point here is that every vendor will poo-poo whatever they don't have until they do have it. >> Yes. >> And then it'd be like, oh, we are all in, we've always been doing this. We have always supported this and now we are doing it better than others. >> Look, it was the same type of shock wave that we felt basically when AWS at the last moment at one of their reinvents, oh, by the way, we're going to introduce outposts. And the analyst group is typically pre briefed about a week or two ahead under NDA and that was not part of it. And when they dropped, they just casually dropped that in the analyst session. It's like, you could have heard the sound of lots of analysts changing their diapers at that point. >> (laughs) I remember that. And a props to Andy Jassy who once, many times actually told us, never say never when it comes to AWS. So guys, I know we got to run. We got some hard stops. Maybe you could each give us your final thoughts, Doug start us off and then-- >> Sure. Well, we've got the Snowflake Summit coming up. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing data science, that are really employing Python through Snowflake, through Snowpark. And then a couple weeks later, we've got Databricks with their Data and AI Summit in San Francisco. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing considerable BI workloads. Last year I did a market overview of this analytical data platform space, 14 vendors, eight of them claim to support lakehouse, both sides of the camp, Databricks customer had 32, their top customer that they could site was unnamed. It had 32 concurrent users doing 15,000 queries per hour. That's good but it's not up to the most demanding BI SQL workloads. And they acknowledged that and said, they need to keep working that. Snowflake asked for their biggest data science customer, they cited Kabura, 400 terabytes, 8,500 users, 400,000 data engineering jobs per day. I took the data engineering job to be probably SQL centric, ETL style transformation work. So I want to see the real use of the Python, how much Snowpark has grown as a way to support data science. >> Great. Tony. >> Actually of all things. And certainly, I'll also be looking for similar things in what Doug is saying, but I think sort of like, kind of out of left field, I'm interested to see what MongoDB is going to start to say about operational analytics, 'cause I mean, they're into this conquer the world strategy. We can be all things to all people. Okay, if that's the case, what's going to be a case with basically, putting in some inline analytics, what are you going to be doing with your query engine? So that's actually kind of an interesting thing we're looking for next week. >> Great. Sanjeev. >> So I'll be at MongoDB world, Snowflake and Databricks and very interested in seeing, but since Tony brought up MongoDB, I see that even the databases are shifting tremendously. They are addressing both the hashtag use case online, transactional and analytical. I'm also seeing that these databases started in, let's say in case of MySQL HeatWave, as relational or in MongoDB as document, but now they've added graph, they've added time series, they've added geospatial and they just keep adding more and more data structures and really making these databases multifunctional. So very interesting. >> It gets back to our discussion of best of breed, versus all in one. And it's likely Mongo's path or part of their strategy of course, is through developers. They're very developer focused. So we'll be looking for that. And guys, I'll be there as well. I'm hoping that we maybe have some extra time on theCUBE, so please stop by and we can maybe chat a little bit. Guys as always, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug, Tony, Sanjeev, and let's do this again. >> It's been a pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and the excellent analyst. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this "CUBE" conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE", Here in Palo Alto, California, beginning in 2022, kicking off the new year with a great conversation. We're with folks from down under, two co-founders of Instaclustr. Peter Lilley, CEO, Ben Bromhead, the CTO, Intaclustr success. 'Cause he's been on "theCUBE" before, 2018 at Amazon re:Invent. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on "theCUBE". Thanks for piping in from Down Under into Palo Alto. >> Thanks, John, it's really good to be here, I'm looking forward to the conversation. >> So, I love the name, Instaclustr. It conjures up cloud, cloud scale, modern application, server list. It just gives me a feel of things coming together. Spin me up a cluster of these kinds of feelings. The cloud is here, open sources is growing, that's what you guys are in the middle of. Take a minute to explain what you guys do real quick and this open source cloud intersection that's just going supernova right now. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Instaclustr is on a mission to really enable the world's ambitions to use open source technology. And we do that specifically at the data layer. And we primarily do that through what we call our platform offering. And think of it as the way to make it super easy, super scalable, super reliable way to adopt open source technologies at the data layer, to build cutting edge applications in the cloud. Today used by customers all over the world. We started the business in Australia but we've very quickly become a global business. But we are the business that sits behind some of the most successful brands that are building massively scalable cloud based applications. And you did right. We sit at a real intersection of kind of four things. One is open source adoption which is an incredibly powerful journey and wave that's driving the future direction of IT. You've got managed services or managed operations and moving those onto a platform like Instaclustr. You've got the adoption of cloud and cloud as a wave, like open source is a wave. And then you've got the growth of data, everything is data-driven these days. And data is just excellent for businesses and our customers. And in a lot of cases when we work with our customers on Instaclustr today, the application and the data, the data is the business. >> Ben, I want to get your thoughts as a CTO because open source, and technology, and cloud, has been a real game changer. If you go back prior to cloud, open source is very awesome, still great, freedom, we've got code, it's just the scale of open source. And then cloud came along, changed the game, so, open source. And then new business models became, so commercial open source software is now an industry. It's not just open source, "Hey, free software." And then maybe a red hat's out there, or someone like a red hat, have some premium support. There's been innovation on the business model side. So, matching technology innovation with the business model has been a big change in the past, many, many years. And this past year in particular that's been key. And open source, open core, these are the things that people are talking about. License changes, this is a big discussion. Because you could be on the wrong side of history if you make the wrong decision here. >> Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's also worth, I guess, taking a step back and understanding a little bit about why have people gravitated towards open source and the cloud? Beyond kind of the hippie freedoms of, I can see the code and I have ownership, and everything's free and great. And I think the reason why it's really taken off in a commercial setting, in an enterprise setting is velocity. How much easier is it to go reach and grab a open-source tool? That you can download, you can grab, you can compile yourself, you can make it work the way you want it to do to solve a problem here and now. Versus the old school way of doing it which is with I have to go download a trial version. Oh no, some of the features are locked. I've got to go talk to a procurement or a salesperson to kind of go and solve the problem that I have. And then I've got to get that approved by my own purchasing department. And do we have budget? And all of a sudden it's way, way, way harder to solve the problem in front of you as an engineer. Whereas with open source I just go grab it and I move on. I've achieved something for the day. >> Basically all that friction that comes, you got a problem to solve, oh, open-source, I'm going to just get a hammer and hammer that nail. Wait, whoa, whoa. I got to stand in line, I got to jump over hoops, I got to do all these things. This is the hassle and friction. >> Exactly, and this is why it's often called one of the most impressive things about that. And I think on the cloud side it's the same thing, but for hardware, and capability, and compute, and memory. Previously, if you wanted to compute, oh, you're going to lodge a ticket. You've got to ask someone to rack a server in a data center. You've got to deal with three different departments. Oh my goodness. How painful is that just to get a server up to go run and do something? That's just pulling your hair out. Whereas with the cloud, that's an API call or clicking a few buttons on a console and off you go. You'd have to combine those two things. And I would say that software engineers are probably the most productive they've ever been in the last 20 years. I know sometimes it doesn't look like that but their ability to solve problems in front of them, especially using external stuff is way way, way better. >> Peter: I think when you put those two things together you get an- >> The fact of the matter is they are productive. They're putting security into the code right in the CICD pipeline. So, this is highly agile right now. So, coders are highly productive and efficient in changing the way people are rolling out applications. So, the game is over, open source has won, open core is winning. And this is where the people are confused. This is why I got you guys here? What's the difference between open source and open core? What's the big deal? Why is it so important? >> Yeah, no, great question. So, really the difference between open source and open core, it comes down to, really it's a business model. So, open core contains open-source software, that's a hundred percent true. So, usually what will happen is a company will take a project that is open source, that has an existing community around it, or they've built it, or they've contributed it, or however that genesis has happened. And then what they'll do is they'll look at all the edges around that open-source project. And I think what are some enterprise features that don't exist in the open-source project that we can build ourselves? And then sprinkle those around the edges and sell that as a proprietary offering. So, what you get is you get the core functionality is powered by an open-source project. And quite often the code is identical. But there's all these kinds of little features around the outside that might make it a little bit easier to use in an enterprise environment. Or might make it a bit easier to do some operations side of things. And they'll charge you a license for that. So, you end up in a situation where you might have adopted the open source project, but then now if you want a feature X, Y, or Z, you then need to go and fork over some money and go into that whole licensing kind of contract. So, that's the core difference between open core and open-source, right? Open core, it's got all these little proprietary bits kind of sprinkled around the outside. >> So, how would you describe your platform for your customers? Obviously, you guys are succeeding, your growth is great, we're going to get that second. But as you guys have been steadily expanding the platform of open source data technologies, what is the main solution that you guys are offering customers? Managing open source technologies? What's the main value that you guys bring to the customer? >> Yeah, definitely. So, really the main value that we bring to the customer is we allow them to, I guess, successfully adopt open source databases or database technologies without having to go down that open core path. Open core can be quite attractive, but what it does is you end up with all these many Oracles drivers. Still having to pay the toll in terms of license fees. What we do, however, is we take those open-source projects and we deliver that as a database, as a service on our managed platform. So, we take care of all the operations, the pain, the care, the feeding, patch management, backups. Everything that you need to do, whether you're running it yourself or getting someone else to run it, we'll take care of that for you. But we do it with the pure upstream open source version. So, that means you get full flexibility, full portability. And more importantly you're not paying those expensive license fees. Plus it's easy and it just works. You get that full cloud native experience and you get your database right now when you need it. >> And basically you guys solve the problem of one, I got this legacy or existing licensed technology I've got to pay for. And it may not be enabling modern applications, and they don't have a team to go do all the work (laughing). Or some companies have like a whole army of people just embedded in open-source, that's very rare. So, it sounds like you guys do both. Did I get that right, is that right? >> Yeah, definitely. So, we definitely enable it if you don't have that capability yourself. We are the outsourced option to that. It's obviously a lot more than that but it's one of those pressures that companies nowadays face. And if we take it back to that concept of developer velocity, you really want them working on your core business problems. You don't want them having to fight database infrastructure. So, you've also got the opportunity cost of having your existing engineers working on running this stuff themselves. Or running a proprietary or an open call solution themselves, when really you should be outsourcing preferably to Instaclustr. But hey, let's be honest, you should be outsourcing it to anyone so that your engineers can be focusing on your core business problems. And really letting them work on the things that make you money. >> That's very smart. You guys have a great business model. Because one of the things we've been reporting on "theCUBE" on SiliconANGLE as well, is that the database market is becoming so diverse for the right reasons. Databases are everywhere now and code is becoming horizontally scalable for the cloud but vertically specialized with machine learning. So, you're seeing applications and new databases, no one database rules the world anymore. It's not about Oracle anymore, or anything else. So, open source fits nicely into this kind of platform view. How do you guys decide which technologies go in to the platform that you support? >> Yeah, great question. So, we certainly live in a world of, I call it polyglot persistence. But a simple way of referring to that is the right tool for the right job. And so, we really live in this world where engineers will reach for a database that solves a specific problem and solves it well. As you mentioned, companies, they're no longer Oracle shops, or they're no longer MySQL shops. You'll quite often see services or applications of teams using two or three different databases to solve different challenges. And so, what we do at Instaclustr is we really look at what are the technologies that our existing customers are using, and using side-by-side with, say, some of the existing Instaclustr offerings. We take great lead from that. We also look at what are the different projects out there that are solving use cases that we don't address at the moment. So, it's very use case driven. Whether it's, "Hey, we need something that's better at," say, "Time series." Or we need something that's a little bit better at translatable workloads. Or something a bit of a better fit for a case, right? And we work with those. And I think importantly, we also have this view that in a world of polyglot persistence, you've also got data integration challenges. So, how do you keep data safe between these two different database types? So, we're also looking at how do we integrate those better and support our users on that particular journey. So, it really comes down to one, listening to your customers, seeing what's out there and what's the right use case for a given technology and then we look to adopt that. >> That's great, Ben, machine learning is completely on fire right now. People love it, they want more of it. AI everything, everyone's putting AI on every label. If it does any automation, it's magic, it's AI. So, really, we know what that's happening, it's just really database work and machine learning under the covers. Pete, the business model here has completely changed too, because now with open source as a platform you have more scale, you have differentiation opportunities. I'm sure business is doing great. Give us an update on the business side of Instaclustr. What's clicking for you guys, what's working? What's the success trajectory look like? >> Yeah, it's been an amazing journey for us. When you think about it we were founded it in 2013, so, we're eight years into our journey. When we started the business we were focused entirely on Cassandra. But as Ben talked about, we've gone in diversified those technologies onto the platform, that common experience that we offer customers. So, you can adopt any one to a number of open source technologies in a highly integrated way and really, really grow off the back of that. It's driving some phenomenal growth in our business and we've really enjoyed growth rates that have been 70, 80, 100 year on year since we've started the business. And that's led to an enormous scale and opportunities for us to invest further in the platform, invest further in additional technologies in a really highly opinionated way. I think Ben talked about that integrations, then that becomes incredibly complex as you have many, many kinds of offerings on the platform. So, Instaclustr is much more targeted in terms of how we want to take our business forward and the growth opportunity before us. We think about being deeply expert and deeply capable in a smaller subset of technologies. But those which actually integrate and inter operate for customers so they can build solutions for their applications. But do that on Instaclustr using its platform with a common experience. And, so we've grown to 270 people now around the world. We started in Australia, we've got a strong presence in the US. We recently acquired a business called credativ in Europe, which was a PostgreSQL specialist organization. And that was because, as Ben said before, talking about those technologies we bring onto our platform. PostgreSQL, huge market, disrupting Oracle, exactly the right place that we want to be as Instaclustr with pure open source offerings. We brought them into the Instaclustr family in March this year and we did that to accelerate it on our platform. And so, we think about that. We think about future technologies on their platform, what we can do, and introduced to even provide an even greater and richer experience. Cadence is new to our platform. Super exciting for us because not only is it something that provides workflow as code, as an open source experience, but as a glue technology to build a complex business technology for applications. It actually drives workloads across Cassandra, PostgreSQL and Kafka, which are kind of core technologies on our platform. Super exciting for us, a big market. Interesting kind of group of adopters. You've got Uber kind of leading the charge there with that and us partnering with them now. We see that as a massive growth opportunity for our business. And as we introduce analytics capabilities, exploration, visibility features into the platform all built on open source. So, you can build a complete top to bottom data services layer using open source technology for your platform. We think that's an incredibly exciting part of the business and a great opportunity for us. >> Opportunities to raise money, more acquisitions on the horizon? >> Well, I think acquisitions where it makes sense. I talked about credativ, where we looked at credativ, we knew that PostgreSQL was new to our market, and we were coming into that market reasonably late. So, the way we thought about that from a strategy perspective was we wanted to accelerate the richness of the capability on our platform that we introduced and became GA late last year. So, we think about when we're selecting that kind of technology, that's the perfect opportunity to consider an acquisition for us. So, as we look at what we're going to introduce in the platform over the next sort of two, three, four years, that sort of decision that will, or that sort of thinking, or frames our thinking on what we would do from an acquisition perspective. I think the other way we think about acquisitions is new markets. So, thinking about globally entering, say into the Japanese market. does that make sense because of any language requirements to be able to support customers? 'Cause one of the things that's really, really important to us is the platform is fantastic for scaling, growing, deploying, running, operating this very powerful open source technology. But so too is the importance of having deep operational open source expertise backing and being there to call on if a customer's having an application issue. And that kind of drives the need for us to have in country kind of market support. And so, when we think about those sort of opportunities, I think we think about acquisition there, isn't it like another string to the bow in terms of getting presence in a particular or an emerging market that we're interested in. >> Awesome, Ben, final question to you is, on the technology front what do you see this year emerging? A lot of changes in 2021. We've got another year of pandemic situation going on. Hopefully it goes by fast. Hopefully it won't be three years, but again, who knows? But you're seeing the cloud open source actually taking as a tailwind from the pandemic. New opportunities, companies are refreshing, they have to, they're forced. There's going to be a lot more changes. What do you see from a tech perspective in open-source, open core, and in general for large companies as opensource continues to power the innovation? >> So, definitely the pandemic has a tailwind, particularly for those companies adopting the cloud. I think it's forced a lot of their hands as well. Their five-year plans have certainly become two or three year plans around moving to the cloud. And certainly, that contest for talent means that you really want to be keeping your engineers focused on core things. So, definitely I think we're going to see a continuation of that. We're going to say the continuation of open source dominating when it comes to a database and the database market, the same with cloud. I think we're going to see the gradual march towards different adoption models within the cloud. So, server lists, right? I think we're going to see that kind of slowly mature. I think it's still a little bit early in the hype cycle there, but we're going to start to see that mature. On the ML, AI side of things as well, people have been talking about it for the last three or four years. And I'm sure to people in the industry, they're like, "Oh, we're over that." But I think on the broader industry we're still quite early in that particular cycle as people figure out, how do they use the data that they've got? How do they use that? How do they train models on that? How do they serve inference on that? And how do they unlock other things with lower down on their data stack as well when it comes to ML and AI, right? We're seeing great research papers come out from AI powered indexes, right? So, the AI is actually speeding up queries, let alone actually solving business problems. So, I think we're going to say more and more of that kind of come out. I think we're going to see more and more process capabilities and organizational responses to this explosion of data. I'm super excited to say people talking about concepts and organizational concepts like data mesh. I think that's going to be fundamental as we move forward and have to manage the complexities of dealing with this. So, it's an old industry, data, when you think about it. As soon as you had computers you had data, and it's an old industry from that perspective. But I feel like we're only just getting started and it's just heating up. So, we're super excited to see what 2022 holds for us. >> Every company will be an source AI company. It has to be no matter what. (Ben laughing) Well, thanks for sharing the data Pete and Ben, the co-founders of Instaclustr. We'll get our "CUBE" AI working on this data we got today from you guys. Thanks for sharing, great stuff. Thanks for sharing the open core perspective. We really appreciate it and congratulations on your success. Companies do need more Instaclustrs out there, and you guys are doing a great job. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks John, cheers mate. >> Thanks John. >> It's "theCUBE" Conversation here at Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube in ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> On Friday, December 10th, Oracle announced a strong earnings beat and raise, on the strength of its licensed business, and slightly better than expected cloud performance. The stock was up sharply on the day and closed up nearly 16% surpassing 280 billion in market value. Oracle's success is due largely to its execution, of a highly differentiated strategy, that has really evolved over the past decade or more, deeply integrating its hardware and software, heavily investing in next generation cloud, creating a homogeneous experience across its application portfolio, and becoming the number one platform. Number one for the world's most mission critical applications. Now, while investors piled into the stock, skeptics will point to the beat being weighed toward licensed revenue and likely keep one finger on the sell button until they're convinced Oracle's cloud momentum, is more consistent and predictable. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibond CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll review Oracle's most recent quarter, and pull in some ETR survey data, to frame the company's cloud business, the momentum of fusion ERP, where the company is winning and some gaps and opportunities that we see. The numbers this quarter was strong, particularly top line growth. Here are a few highlights. Oracle's revenues that grew 6% year on year that's in constant currency, surpassed $10 billion for the quarter. Oracle's non-gap operating margins, were an impressive 47%. Safra Catz has always said cloud is more profitable business and it's really starting to show in the income statement. Operating cash and free cash flow were 10.3 billion and 7.1 billion respectively, for the past four quarters, and would have been higher, if not for charges largely related to litigation expenses tied to the hiring of Mark Hurd, which the company said would not repeat in the future quarters. And you can see in this chart how Oracle breaks down its business, which is kind of a mishmash of items they lump into so-called the cloud. The largest piece of the revenue pie is cloud services, and licensed support, which in reading 10Ks, you'll find statements like the following; licensed support revenues are our largest revenue stream and include product upgrades, and maintenance releases and patches, as well as technical support assistance and statements like the following; cloud and licensed revenue, include the sale of cloud services, cloud licenses and on-premises licenses, which typically represent perpetual software licenses purchased by customers, for use in both cloud, and on-premises, IT environments. And cloud license and on-prem license revenues primarily represent amounts earned from granting customers perpetual licenses to use our database middleware application in industry specific products, which our customers use for cloud-based, on-premise and other IT environments. So you tell me, "is that cloud? I don't know." In the early days of Oracle cloud, the company used to break out, IaaS, PaaS and SaaS revenue separately, but it changed its mind, which really makes it difficult to determine what's happening in true cloud. Look I have no problem including same same hardware software control plane, et cetera. The hybrid if it's on-prem in a true hybrid environment like exadata cloud@customer or AWS outposts. But you have to question what's really cloud in these numbers. And Larry in the earnings call mentioned that Salesforce licenses the Oracle database, to run its cloud and Oracle doesn't count that in its cloud number, rather it counts it in license revenue, but as you can see it varies that into a line item that starts with the word cloud. So I guess I would say that Oracle's reporting is maybe somewhat better than IBM's cloud reporting, which is the worst, but I can't really say what is and isn't cloud, in these numbers. Nonetheless, Oracle is getting it done for investors. Here's a chart comparing the five-year performance of Oracle to some of its legacy peers. We excluded Microsoft because it skews the numbers. Microsoft would really crush all these names including Oracle. But look at Oracle. It's wedged in between the performance of the NASDAQ and the S&P 500, it's up over 160% in that five-year timeframe, well ahead of SAP which is up 59% in that time, and way ahead of the dismal -22% performance of IBM. Well, it's a shame. The tech tide is rising, it's lifting all boats but, IBM has unfortunately not been able to capitalize. That's a story for another day. As a market watcher, you can't help but love Larry Ellison. I only met him once at an IDC conference in Paris where I got to interview Scott McNealy, CEO at the time. Ellison is great for analysts because, he's not afraid to talk about the competition. He'll brag, he'll insult, he'll explain, and he'll pitch his stories. Now on the earnings call last night, he went off. Educating the analyst community, on the upside in the fusion ERP business, making the case that because only a thousand of the 7,500 legacy on-prem ERP customers from Oracle, JD Edwards and PeopleSoft have moved Oracle's fusion cloud ERP, and he predicted that Oracle's cloud ERP business will surpass 20 billion in five years. In fact, he said it's going to bigger than that. He slammed the hybrid cloud washing. You can see one of the quotes here in this chart, that's going on when companies have customers running in the cloud and they claim whatever they have on premise hybrid, he called that ridiculous. I would agree. And then he took an opportunity to slam the hyperscale cloud vendors, citing a telco customer that said Oracle's cloud never goes down, and of course, he chose the same week, that AWS had a major outage. And so to these points, I would say that Oracle really was the first tech company, to announce a true hybrid cloud strategy, where you have an entirely identical experience on prem and in the cloud. This was announced with cloud@customer, two years, before AWS announced outposts. Now it probably took Oracle two years to get it working as advertised, but they were first. And to the second point, this is where Oracle differentiates itself. Oracle is number one for mission critical applications. No other vendor really can come close to Oracle in this regard. And I would say that Oracle is recent quarterly performance to a large extent, is due to this differentiated approach. Over the past 10 years, we've talked to hundreds literally. Hundreds and hundreds of Oracle customers. And while they may not always like the tactics and licensing policies of Oracle in their contracting, they will tell you, that business case for investing and staying with Oracle are very strong. And yes, a big part of that is lock-in but R&D investments innovation and a keen sense of market direction, are just as important to these customers. When you're chairman and founder is a technologist and also the CTO, and has the cash on hand to invest, the results are a highly competitive story. Now that's not to say Oracle is not without its challenges. That's not to say Oracle is without its challenges. Those who follow this program know that when it comes to ETR survey data, the story is not always pretty for Oracle. So let's take a look. This chart shows the breakdown of ETR is net score methodology, Net score measures spending momentum and works ETR. Each quarter asks customers, are you adding in the platform, That's the lime green. Increasing spend by 6% or more, that's the fourth green. Is you're spending E+ or minus 5%, that's the gray. You're spending climbing by 6%, that's the pinkish. Or are you leaving the platform, that's the bright red retiring. You subtract the reds from the greens, and that yields a net score, which an Oracle's overall case, is an uninspiring -4%. This is one of the anomalies in the ETR dataset. The net score doesn't track absolute actual levels, of spending the dollars. Remember, as the leader in mission critical workloads, Oracle commands a premium price. And so what happens here is the gray, is still spending a large amount of money, enough to offset the declines, and the greens are spending more than they would on other platforms because Oracle could command higher prices. And so that's how Oracle is able to grow its overall revenue by 6% for example, whereas the ETR methodology, doesn't capture that trend. So you have to dig into the data a bit deeper. We're not going to go too deep today, but let's take a look at how some of Oracle's businesses are performing relative to its competitors. This is a popular view that we like to share. It shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis, and market share. Market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the survey. Think of it as mentioned share. That's on the x-axis. And we've broken down and circled Oracle overall, Oracle on prem, which is declining on the vertical axis, Oracle fusion and NetSuite, which are much higher than Oracle overall. And in the case of fusion, much closer to that 40% magic red horizontal line, remember anything above that line, we consider to be elevated. Now we've added SAP overall which has, momentum comparable to fusion in the survey, using this methodology and IBM, which is in between fusion and Oracle, overall on the y-axis. Oracle as you can see on the horizontal axis, has a larger presence than any of these firms that are below the 40% line. Now, above that 40% line, you see companies with a smaller presence in the survey like Workday, salesforce.com, pretty big presence still, Google cloud also, and Snowflake. Smaller presence but much much higher net score than anybody else on this chart. And AWS and Microsoft overall with both a strong presence, and impressive momentum, especially for their respective sizes. Now that view that we just showed you excluded on purpose Oracle specific cloud offering. So let's now take a look at that relative to other cloud providers. This chart shows the same XY view, but it cuts the data by cloud only. And you can see Oracle while still well below the 40% line, has a net score of +15 compared to a -4 overall that we showed you earlier. So here we see two key points. One, despite the convoluted reporting that we talked about earlier, the ETR data supports that Oracle's cloud business has significantly more momentum than Oracle's overall average momentum. And two, while Oracle is smaller and doesn't have the growth of the hyperscale giants, it's cloud is performing noticeably better than IBM's within the ETR survey data. Now a key point Ellison emphasized on the earnings call, was the importance of ERP, and the work that Oracle has done in this space. It lives by this notion of a cloud first mentality. It builds stuff for the cloud and then, would bring it on-prem. And it's been attracting new customers according to the company. He said Oracle has 8,500 fusion ERP customers, and 28,000 NetSuite customers in the cloud. And unlike Microsoft, it hasn't migrated its on-prem install base, to the cloud yet. Meaning these are largely new customers. Now this chart isolates fusion and NetSuite, within a sector ETR calls GPP. The very giant, public and private companies. And this is a bellwether of spending in the ETR dataset. They've gone back and it correlates to performance. So think large public companies, the biggest ones, and also privates big privates like Mars or Cargo or Fidelity. The chart shows the net score breakdown over time for fusion and NetSuite going back to 2019. And you can see, a big uptick as shown in the blue line from the October, 2020 survey. So Oracle has done a good job building and now marketing its cloud ERP to these important customers. Now, the last thing we want to show you is Oracle's performance within industry sectors. On the earnings call, Oracle said that it had a very strong momentum for fusion in financial services and healthcare. And this chart shows the net score for fusion, across each industry sector that ETR tracks, for three survey points. October, 2020, that's the gray bars, July 21, that's the blue bars and October, 2021, the yellow bars. So look it confirms Oracles assertions across the board that they're seeing fusion perform very well including the two verticals that are called out healthcare and banking slash financial services. Now the big question is where does Oracle go from here? Oracle has had a history of looking like it's going to break out, only to hit some bumps in the road. And so investors are likely going to remain a bit cautious and take profits off the table along the way. But since the Barron's article came out, we reported on that earlier this year in February, declaring Oracle a cloud giant, the stock is up more than 50% of course. 16 of those points were from Friday's move upward, but still, Oracle's highly differentiated strategy of integrating hardware and software together, investing in a modern cloud platform and selectively offering services that cater to the hardcore mission critical buyer, these have served the company, its customers and investors as well. From a cloud standpoint, we'd like to see Oracle be more inclusive, and aggressively expand its marketplace and its ecosystem. This would provide both greater optionality for customers, and further establish Oracle as a major cloud player. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of both AWS and Azure is the momentum being created, by their respective ecosystems. As well, we'd like to see more clear confirmation that Oracle's performance is being driven by its investments in technology IE cloud, same same hybrid, and industry features these modern investments, versus a legacy licensed cycles. We are generally encouraged and are reminded, of years ago when Sam Palmisano, he was retiring and leaving as the CEO of IBM. At the time, HP under the direction ironically of Mark Hurd, was the now company, Palmisano was asked, "do you worry about HP?" And he said in fact, "I don't worry about HP. I worry about Oracle because Oracle invests in R&D." And that statement has proven present. What do you think? Has Oracle hit the next inflection point? Let me know. Don't forget these episodes they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, all you do is search it. Breaking Analysis podcast, check out ETR website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconANGLE.com. You can get in touch with me on email David.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me @dvellante on Twitter or, comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights. Powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody. Stay safe, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome back to day two of AWS re:Invent 2021, theCUBE's continuous coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host, David Nicholson. We've got two sets. We had two remote sets prior to the show. We're running all kinds of activities and we've got AWS executives, partners, ecosystem technologists, Scott Weber is here as the director and an AWS partner, ambassador from PwC. Scott, good to see you. >> Nice to meet you guys. Thanks for letting me be here. >> Well, so your expertise is around application modernization. It's a hot theme these days. If you're a company with a lot of legacy debt, you've got a big complex application portfolio. I would think, especially with the forced match to digital over the last year and a half, two years. Now is really a time when you're probably too late to really start thinking about rationalizing your portfolio. What are you seeing in this space? >> Definitely, we're seeing the customers that have reached that point. I view modernization as sort of the second wave of cloud that's coming. So you had your first wave, the early adopters that lifted and shifted into the cloud. We still have people looking at getting into the cloud, but for those that went early, now, they're saying, "How do I get more out of the cloud? How do I get closer to cloud native?" And that's what we're starting to see around this modernization move is, I want to start to utilize those higher level services from AWS and the cloud providers. I want to get a better return, I want to stop worrying about running infrastructure and hardware. >> So when you think about, I go back all the way back to Y2K, that was like a boondoggle for IT to spend a bunch of doh and do some cool stuff. And then of course the .com crashed, but today it's different. It's really about the business impact the business outcome that you can drive in transforming your digital business. So how do you as a technology agnostic consultant help a company understand what they should leave alone or sunset? What they should aggressively migrate? What's the process that you use to do that? >> In some ways we go back, we can reuse sort of those 6Rs that maybe got a customer to the cloud, or as they're on that cloud journey, right? And you really want to focus on where can you optimize ROI. And you're going to come across those things that are going to be like, look, maybe it's a vendor COTS solution. There's not a lot we can do there. You're just going to have to continue down that path. Unless we can look to move that to a SaaS service. Maybe the vendor has gone to a SaaS offering. Or we get into looking at they've done development in house, but that development is still monolithic running on virtual machines, either in the data center or in AWS, but it's a critical system to that business. It's maybe it's become fragile. How can we now modernize that? Because that's where there's going to be a great return on investment for that customer, and it's also going to allow business agility for those customers. As we can get them to microservices and Lambda and function as a service, the blast radius for changes become smaller, allows the customer to move faster than what they're doing. So it's the rationalization becomes what's driving the business forward? What's critical to the business? But what's holding them back as well? So that the customers can start to move faster. >> So it's a formula of okay, what's the business value of those applications essentially? You can kind of rank that, but then it's a formula there's a cost equation. That's pretty straightforward to figure out the s is and the 2b but then there's a speed. Like an ongoing time to value from a developer standpoint and then I guess there's risk. Have you got your core jewels? Maybe you don't want to touch those yet. Is that kind of your algorithm? >> It is and on that sort of cost and value piece, that's where we can really see some interesting things happen, where as we get customers away from licensed OSS proprietary databases, that return on investment can be huge. So we've helped customers migrate from running .net applications on top of a typical Microsoft Windows stack and SQL server stack. All the way to taking those workloads, all the way, either to Linux containers or all the way to serverless if we're going to take all the steps to rewrite, you can drive 60, 70, 80% of the cost of operating at that platform out of it, then you start this flywheel effect of reinvesting that money back into the next project to help the customer move forward. >> And it's quick follow up, but I know you want to jump in. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Why wouldn't a customer, that's a Microsoft customer just run that on Azure? Why AWS? >> I mean, that's a good question and that sort of gets into a lot of philosophical, like discussion we talk about for a long time. The fact of the matter is the majority of your Windows workloads still run on top of AWS today. I would argue AWS has some pretty superior things in their underlying architecture, they're nitro architectures and things like that. But I think it's also choice. And, the whole move of .net to Linux, Microsoft started that they put the ability to, you can run SQL server on top of Linux. Well, if I run SQL server on top of Linux, I take out 20% of my costs right there. They put the support in for .net core to be able to run on Linux or on containers, but that's to help the developers move faster, that's to help us get to microservices. So that cloud provider choice, I think is becomes a bigger discussion, but a lot of people are choosing AWS because they're not just doing Microsoft workloads . Again, we could get very deep into like, trade-offs on why one over the other, but customers are choosing AWS for a lot of these words. >> Diversity and better cloud, better infrastructure. >> Yeah, and philosophical is an interesting way to look at it when it becomes a hostage negotiation. I'm not sure there was a lot of philosophy involved when server and SQL 2008 were being end of support life. And people were told, move it to Azure and we'll take care of you. Don't move it to Azure, you're on your own. But something on the subject of ROI. ROI is typically measured over time. How do you rectify and address the sort of CIO dilemma, which is that if ROI is being delivered fantastically in four years, but the average tenure of a CIO is 2.7 years, how do you address that? What is the sweet spot for timeframes that you're seeing for people to actually implement when you consider as was mentioned today, the keynote that somewhere around 15% of IT spend is in cloud today, which leaves 85% of it on premises. So what do we do about that? >> Yeah, that's a great question. So, I think, I like to get small wins. So find a very big pain point for that customer. How can we start to get them some small wins and start that flywheel effect going of like you saved money here, now, can we reinvest and start to show some wins, but we've engaged in projects where we've completely rewritten a whole application stack that was the core service for a business in a year and a half, and we took them from a run rate of somewhere between 40 and $60,000 a month. Had they been running that in AWS, they were running it in a data center today. So that was our estimate to less than $5,000 a month to run that application on a serverless platform inside of AWS. >> So when you talk about modernizing an application environment, that's typically not thought of as low hanging fruit. So does that mean that all the low hanging fruit has been consumed? Are all the net new things that are developed in a cloud native format, have they already been done? Is this the only frontier for opportunity now? >> No, it's not the only frontier. I mean, there's a lot of customers that are still just trying to get into the cloud. >> Lots of applications out there? >> Yeah, and you look at things like mainframe as well. That's I think a coming area where customers are finally starting to say, "Enough with the mainframe, we saw it in the keynote today of a new sort of service offering around helping customers rationalize how to do, to start to do things with the mainframe." So, but sometimes you can get those easy wins. Like we find a scalability issue. And we can inject scalability and pull back costs very rapidly. 'Cause you run in that scenario, there provision for max capacity that may happen 10% of the year. Now they're vastly overpaying. So we can still get some easy wins with slight tweaks to the platform while we help them rationalize those longer built times. I think the other thing we're starting to see is a shift in CIOs that are coming more from a software background too. That aren't from the pure infrastructure background and as we see those software dBase CIO start to come in. They're starting to understand the game that can be had of making the investment in the software and those upgrades to the software. >> And their tenure is elongating 'cause, CIO career is over was the joke. Now you're losing CIO, is cause they're going onto a bigger and better. They getting more options. I mean, they're becoming rockstars again. I want to ask you just as a side about that mainframe compatible runtime that they announced 'cause it sounds like you've got some experience in converting mainframe. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause I've always been a skeptic. We've seen this movie before where people have to freeze code, they've got to freeze code for 18 months. It takes 24 months, but now it's cloud, Adam Selipsky said, we can cut migration time, which is critical here by two-thirds 'cause that's the key. If you can reduce the time of which you have to freeze the code or maybe not even freeze the code. Again, I'm a skeptic, but what are you seeing with practical experience? >> So at PwC, we're seeing a lot of customers, start down this path and the ROI is pretty amazing when once you get in and you really start to dig in of what it can be if to go down this path. And there's a lot of tools out there, there's a gentleman on our team that's a real genius with this and he's helped multiple customers go down this path. There's tools that can start to do code conversion for you. I mean, we all get a little skeptical on those things cause we never know what the machine is going to try to make the code look like, but it's the starting point. But there is more. >> Like a prewash? >> Yeah, (Dave laughs) there's more and more design patterns coming out to help us down those pathways. But it goes back to agility for the business cause a lot of these customers running mainframes today are looking at a six month release cycle if they want to make any changes to their environment. If we can get them into an agile mindset to a microservice, they can get to two weeks or less for release cycles. So it's a big win for the company overall. Yes, there's a risk, but I think you can take, you can try to de-risk it as much as you can, you don't take the core, the absolute core critical piece of that mainframe. You start to pick away around the edges and you get comfortable with what you're doing. >> And going back to the concept of ROI, specifically in the mainframe space, there have been some not so subtle nudges from the marketplace that changed the dynamics associated with staying on your mainframe. Because if I tell you that the tax to stay on your mainframe is going to triple or quadruple over the next several years, that changes the balance. So you have the old guard in the software business who will remain nameless, jacking up the prices because they feel like, you know what, "What are you going to do? What are you going to do other than write me a cheque?" And the answer is, "Well move," right?. >> Yep, it's reached a point like the companies are moving. And what I think companies start to see too is, when we talk about purpose-driven databases, Adam was talking about that in the keynote today too. And we've seen that with customers when we've done builds, what's the right database for this data? And now you can start to get things moving even faster. And you unleash new ways of thinking. And I mean, some of the vendors are doing things like that and the companies aren't happy about it. >> Well, yes, but look, you're talking about Oracle in particular. (group chattering) That's one of them, but Oracle invests in its database and it's two different theories. Adam, today's the right tool for the right job, API and primitives and Oracle takes the kind of Swiss army knife approach. But they do invest if you have hard core mission critical, recovery is everything. There's a risk factor involved there, but if you want to go fast and you're a developer, you're not going to necessarily knock on Oracle's door, you're going to go to get an AWS. But it gets to my question, having done a lot of TCO analysis, it used to be labor, was always two-thirds of the cost. Now with automation, especially in Oracle environments, software license costs are the dominant component and it's maybe less true for SQL server, certainly true for Db2. I remember the early days of the flash, we used to tell customers, install flash. You're going to be able to consolidate, reduce your Oracle licenses when they come up. So that was a preferred strategy, but what are you seeing in terms of the ability? First of all is that a correct premise that software licenses is still a big component or an increasingly large component, and how do you unshackle from that? >> Yeah, so definitely software licensing costs for the OSS and for the databases are huge. I mean, there's numbers out there that like for SQL server enterprise, if you can get somebody off the SQL server enterprise and get them to an open solution like Aurora Postgres or something like that, it's a 90% ROI, and the numbers are similar for Oracle. And I talked to a lot of customers are like, "But we don't know Postgres," but it's not really that different. It's still data modeling. And when you get to these managed services platforms like RDS and Aurora, you free up those DBS to do the higher value things. The ROI of a DBA is not managing memory and desk and babysitting the servers, it's helping the developers build better data models. And those sorts of things that are higher value. So it is a big thing and we're seeing customers saying like, "Help us reduce this licensing cost," and help us be more efficient because the open platforms now, especially in the relational database area, are on par in a lot of ways with the Oracles and the SQL servers. So then you start to say, "Well, what am I gaining by paying and being sort of held hostage to these numbers?" So we definitely see customers making this transition. >> I mean, the point about Postgres is a good one because you're going to get enterprise class recoverability but even EDB would say okay, don't start with your mission critical core, pick around the edges just what he's saying over and over time, you're going to become more cloud native and get to the point, can you get to that point where everything's cloud native, everything is a service, maybe not a 100%, but a large part of your application portfolio can get there, right? >> Yeah, you're going to find those, that goes back to doing that application tiering and evaluation and ROI. So, we have a case study that we did with Constellation Brands, where they really needed a B2B type ordering portal solution. And they looked at sort of the typical vendors in a packaged solution if you will, a cottage type solution. And we proposed doing a full custom solution, soup to nuts and building it natively in AWS. And it was built completely on top of platform services. There was no servers in that environment and we were done. We were using AWS Fargate to run their containers on top of, we were using RDS Postgres, we were using Lambda and in some places we were using DynamoDB for holding inflate orders. And so the whole environment is deployable from one cloud formation template. So it completely changed how we even went through the testing of the thing. 'Cause you ran the same cloud formation template to deploy to a different environment. And you knew you were getting the same exact thing. And so they went from, they no longer had to worry about securing underlying compute, secure the containers, run on top of Fargate, use a platform service for your databases, and it was a beautiful solution for them. >> Yeah, you got to taste of that and your eyes open up and say, "Wow, what's possible?" >> Yeah, its a game changer. >> We heard that from NASDAQ this morning. An amazing story. She said, our first Amazon bill was 20 bucks. I bet it's higher now, but first hits free kind of thing. But the point is when people talk about the AWS bill, et cetera, no question, you should try to optimize that. But at the end of the day, it's about the business value Scott, isn't it? >> Scott: Yeah, it is. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great perspectives, >> No, thank you guys. I appreciate having you guys on. >> Thank you very much. >> Keep it right there, Dave Nicholson and I will be right back. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> It'll be five, four, three and then silent two, one, and then you guys just follow my lead. We're just making some last minute adjustments. Like I said, we're down two hands today. So, you good Alex? Okay, are you guys ready? >> I'm ready. >> Ready. >> I got to get get one note here. >> So I noticed Maria you stopped anyway, so I have time. >> Just so they know Dave and the Boston Studio, are they both kind of concurrently be on film even when they're not speaking or will only the speaker be on film for like if Gerald's drawing while Maria is talking about-- >> Sorry but then I missed one part of my onboarding spiel. There should be, if you go into gallery there should be a label. There should be something labeled Boston live switch feed. If you pin that gallery view you'll see what our program currently being recorded is. So any time you don't see yourself on that feed is an excellent time to take a drink of water, scratch your nose, check your notes. Do whatever you got to do off screen. >> Can you give us a three shot, Alex? >> Yes, there it is. >> And then go to me, just give me a one-shot to Dave. So when I'm here you guys can take a drink or whatever >> That makes sense? >> Yeah. >> Excellent, I will get my recordings restarted and we'll open up when Dave's ready. >> All right, you guys ready? >> Ready. >> All right Steve, you go on mute. >> Okay, on me in 5, 4, 3. Developers have become the new king makers in the world of digital and cloud. The rise of containers and microservices has accelerated the transition to cloud native applications. A lot of people will talk about application architecture and the related paradigms and the benefits they bring for the process of writing and delivering new apps. But a major challenge continues to be, the how and the what when it comes to accessing, processing and getting insights from the massive amounts of data that we have to deal with in today's world. And with me are two experts from the data management world who will share with us how they think about the best techniques and practices based on what they see at large organizations who are working with data and developing so-called data-driven apps. Please welcome Maria Colgan and Gerald Venzl, two distinguish product managers from Oracle. Folks, welcome, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having us Dave. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> Okay, Maria let's start with you. So, we throw around this term data-driven, data-driven applications. What are we really talking about there? >> So data-driven applications are applications that work on a diverse set of data. So anything from spatial to sensor data, document data as well as your usual transaction processing data. And what they're going to do is they'll generate value from that data in very different ways to a traditional application. So for example, they may use machine learning, they are able to do product recommendations in the middle of a transaction. Or we could use graph to be able to identify an influencer within the community so we can target them with a specific promotion. It could also use spatial data to be able to help find the nearest stores to a particular customer. And because these apps are deployed on multiple platforms, everything from mobile devices as well as standard browsers, they need a data platform that's going to be both secure, reliable and scalable. >> Well, so when you think about how the workloads are shifting I mean, we're not talking about, you know it's not anymore a world of just your ERP or your HCM or your CRM, you know kind of the traditional operational systems. You really are seeing an explosion of these new data oriented apps. You're seeing, you know, modeling in the cloud, you are going to see more and more inferencing, inferencing at the edge. But Maria maybe you could talk a little bit about sort of the benefits that customers are seeing from developing these types of applications. I mean, why should people care about data-driven apps? >> Oh, for sure, there's massive benefits to them. I mean, probably the most obvious one for any business regardless of the industry, is that they not only allow you to understand what your customers are up to, but they allow you to be able to anticipate those customer's needs. So that helps businesses maintain that competitive edge and retain their customers. But it also helps them make data-driven decisions in real time based on actual data rather than on somebody's gut feeling or basing those decisions on historical data. So for example, you can do real-time price adjustments on products based on demand and so forth, that kind of thing. So it really changes the way people do business today. >> So Gerald, you think about the narrative in the industry everybody wants to be a platform player all your customers they are becoming software companies, they are becoming platform players. Everybody wants to be like, you know name a company that is huge trillion dollar market cap or whatever, and those are data-driven companies. And so it would seem to me that data-driven applications, there's nobody, no company really shouldn't be data-driven. Do you buy that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data-driven, and that naturally the whole industry is data-driven, right? It's like we all have information technologies about processing data and deriving information out of it. But when it comes to app development I think there is a big push to kind of like we have to do machine learning in our applications, we have to get insights from data. And when you actually look back a bit and take a step back, you see that there's of course many different kinds of applications out there as well that's not to be forgotten, right? So there is a usual front end user interfaces where really the application all it does is just entering some piece of information that's stored somewhere or perhaps a microservice that's not attached to a data to you at all but just receives or asks calls (indistinct). So I think it's not necessarily so important for every developer to kind of go on a bandwagon that they have to be data-driven. But I think it's equally important for those applications and those developers that build applications, that drive the business, that make business critical decisions as Maria mentioned before. Those guys should take really a close look into what data-driven apps means and what the data to you can actually give to them. Because what we see also happening a lot is that a lot of the things that are well known and out there just ready to use are being reimplemented in the applications. And for those applications, they essentially just ended up spending more time writing codes that will be already there and then have to maintain and debug the code as well rather than just going to market faster. >> Gerald can you talk to the prevailing approaches that developers take to build data-driven applications? What are the ones that you see? Let's dig into that a little bit more and maybe differentiate the different approaches and talk about that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think right now the industry is like in two camps, it's like sort of a religious war going on that you'll see often happening with different architectures and so forth going on. So we have single purpose databases or data management technologies. Which are technologies that are as the name suggests build around a single purpose. So it's like, you know a typical example would be your ordinary key-value store. And a key-value store all it does is it allows you to store and retrieve a piece of data whatever that may be really, really fast but it doesn't really go beyond that. And then the other side of the house or the other camp would be multimodal databases, multimodal data management technologies. Those are technologies that allow you to store different types of data, different formats of data in the same technology in the same system alongside. And, you know, when you look at the geographics out there of what we have from technology, is pretty much any relational database or any database really has evolved into such a multimodal database. Whether that's MySQL that allows you to store or chase them alongside relational or even a MongoDB that allows you to do or gives you native graph support since (mumbles) and as well alongside the adjacent support. >> Well, it's clearly a trend in the industry. We've talked about this a lot in The Cube. We know where Oracle stands on this. I mean, you just mentioned MySQL but I mean, Oracle Databases you've been extending, you've mentioned JSON, we've got blockchain now in there you're infusing, you know ML and AI into the database, graph database capabilities, you know on and on and on. We talked a lot about we compared that to Amazon which is kind of the right tool, the right job approach. So maybe you could talk about, you know, your point of view, the benefits for developers of using that converged database if I can use that word approach being able to store multiple data formats? Why do you feel like that's a better approach? >> Yeah, I think on a high level it comes down to complexity. You are actually avoiding additional complexity, right? So not every use case that you have necessarily warrants to have yet another data management technology or yet the special build technology for managing that data, right? It's like many use cases that we see out there happily want to just store a piece of a chase and document, a piece of chase in a database and then perhaps retrieve it again afterwards so write some simple queries over it. And you really don't have to get a new database technology or a NoSQL database into the mix if you already have some to just fulfill that exact use case. You could just happily store that information as well in the database you already have. And what it really comes down to is the learning curve for developers, right? So it's like, as you use the same technology to store other types of data, you don't have to learn a new technology, you don't have to associate yourself with new and learn new drivers. You don't have to find new frameworks and you don't have to know how to necessarily operate or best model your data for that database. You can essentially just reuse your knowledge of the technology as well as the libraries and code you have already built in house perhaps in another application, perhaps, you know framework that you used against the same technology because it is still the same technology. So, kind of all comes down again to avoiding complexity rather than not fragmenting you know, the many different technologies we have. If you were to look at the different data formats that are out there today it's like, you know, you would end up with many different databases just to store them if you were to fully religiously follow the single purpose best built technology for every use case paradigm, right? And then you would just end up having to manage many different databases more than actually focusing on your app and getting value to your business or to your user. >> Okay, so I get that and I buy that by the way. I mean, especially if you're a larger organization and you've got all these projects going on but before we go back to Maria, Gerald, I want to just, I want to push on that a little bit. Because the counter to that argument would be in the analogy. And I wonder if you, I'd love for you to, you know knock this analogy off the blocks. The counter would be okay, Oracle is the Swiss Army knife and it's got, you know, all in one. But sometimes I need that specialized long screwdriver and I go into my toolbox and I grab that. It's better than the screwdriver in my Swiss Army knife. Why, are you the Swiss Army knife of databases? Or are you the all-in-one have that best of breed screwdriver for me? How do you think about that? >> Yeah, that's a fantastic question, right? And I think it's first of all, you have to separate between Oracle the company that has actually multiple data management technologies and databases out there as you said before, right? And Oracle Database. And I think Oracle Database is definitely a Swiss Army knife has many capabilities of since the last 40 years, you know that we've seen object support coming that's still in the Oracle Database today. We have seen XML coming, it's still in the Oracle Database, graph, spatial, et cetera. And so you have many different ways of managing your data and then on top of that going into the converge, not only do we allow you to store the different data model in there but we actually allow you also to, you apply all the security policies and so forth on top of it something Maria can talk more about the mission around converged database. I would also argue though that for some aspects, we do actually have to or add a screwdriver that you talked about as well. So especially in the relational world people get very quickly hung up on this idea that, oh, if you only do rows and columns, well, that's kind of what you put down on disk. And that was never true, it's the relational model is actually a logical model. What's probably being put down on disk is blocks that align themselves nice with block storage and always has been. So that allows you to actually model and process the data sort of differently. And one common example or one good example that we have that we introduced a couple of years ago was when, column and databases were very strong and you know, the competition came it's like, yeah, we have In-Memory column that stores now they're so much better. And we were like, well, orienting the data role-based or column-based really doesn't matter in the sense that we store them as blocks on disks. And so we introduced the in memory technology which gives you an In-Memory column, a representation of your data as well alongside your relational. So there is an example where you go like, well, actually you know, if you have this use case of the column or analytics all In-Memory, I would argue Oracle Database is also that screwdriver you want to go down to and gives you that capability. Because not only gives you representation in columnar, but also which many people then forget all the analytic power on top of SQL. It's one thing to store your data columnar, it's a completely different story to actually be able to run analytics on top of that and having all the built-in functionalities and stuff that you want to do with the data on top of it as you analyze it. >> You know, that's a great example, the kilometer 'cause I remember there was like a lot of hype around it. Oh, it's the Oracle killer, you know, at Vertica. Vertica is still around but, you know it never really hit escape velocity. But you know, good product, good company, whatever. Natezza, it kind of got buried inside of IBM. ParXL kind of became, you know, red shift with that deal so that kind of went away. Teradata bought a company, I forget which company it bought but. So that hype kind of disapated and now it's like, oh yeah, columnar. It's kind of like In-Memory, we've had a In-Memory databases ever since we've had databases you know, it's a kind of a feature not a sector. But anyway, Maria, let's come back to you. You've got a lot of customer experience. And you speak with a lot of companies, you know during your time at Oracle. What else are you seeing in terms of the benefits to this approach that might not be so intuitive and obvious right away? >> I think one of the biggest benefits to having a multimodel multiworkload or as we call it a converged database, is the fact that you can get greater data synergy from it. In other words, you can utilize all these different techniques and data models to get better value out of that data. So things like being able to do real-time machine learning, fraud detection inside a transaction or being able to do a product recommendation by accessing three different data models. So for example, if I'm trying to recommend a product for you Dave, I might use graph analytics to be able to figure out your community. Not just your friends, but other people on our system who look and behave just like you. Once I know that community then I can go over and see what products they bought by looking up our product catalog which may be stored as JSON. And then on top of that I can then see using the key-value what products inside that catalog those community members gave a five star rating to. So that way I can really pinpoint the right product for you. And I can do all of that in one transaction inside the database without having to transform that data into different models or God forbid, access different systems to be able to get all of that information. So it really simplifies how we can generate that value from the data. And of course, the other thing our customers love is when it comes to deploying data-driven apps, when you do it on a converged database it's much simpler because it is that standard data platform. So you're not having to manage multiple independent single purpose databases. You're not having to implement the security and the high availability policies, you know across a bunch of different diverse platforms. All of that can be done much simpler with a converged database 'cause the DBA team of course, is going to just use that standard set of tools to manage, monitor and secure those systems. >> Thank you for that. And you know, it's interesting, you talk about simplification and you are in Juan's organization so you've big focus on mission critical. And so one of the things that I think is often overlooked well, we talk about all the time is recovery. And if things are simpler, recovery is faster and easier. And so it's kind of the hallmark of Oracle is like the gold standard of the toughest apps, the most mission critical apps. But I wanted to get to the cloud Maria. So because everything is going to the cloud, right? Not all workloads are going to the cloud but everybody is talking about the cloud. Everybody has cloud first mentality and so yes, it's a hybrid world. But the natural next question is how do you think the cloud fits into this world of data-driven apps? >> I think just like any app that you're developing, the cloud helps to accelerate that development. And of course the deployment of these data-driven applications. 'Cause if you think about it, the developer is instantly able to provision a converged database that Oracle will automatically manage and look after for them. But what's great about doing something like that if you use like our autonomous database service is that it comes in different flavors. So you can get autonomous transaction processing, data warehousing or autonomous JSON so that the developer is going to get a database that's been optimized for their specific use case, whatever they are trying to solve. And it's also going to contain all of that great functionality and capabilities that we've been talking about. So what that really means to the developer though is as the project evolves and inevitably the business needs change a little, there's no need to panic when one of those changes comes in because your converged database or your autonomous database has all of those additional capabilities. So you can simply utilize those to able to address those evolving changes in the project. 'Cause let's face it, none of us normally know exactly what we need to build right at the very beginning. And on top of that they also kind of get a built-in buddy in the cloud, especially in the autonomous database. And that buddy comes in the form of built-in workload optimizations. So with the autonomous database we do things like automatic indexing where we're using machine learning to be that buddy for the developer. So what it'll do is it'll monitor the workload and see what kind of queries are being run on that system. And then it will actually determine if there are indexes that should be built to help improve the performance of that application. And not only does it bill those indexes but it verifies that they help improve the performance before publishing it to the application. So by the time the developer is finished with that app and it's ready to be deployed, it's actually also been optimized by the developers buddy, the Oracle autonomous database. So, you know, it's a really nice helping hand for developers when they're building any app especially data-driven apps. >> I like how you sort of gave us, you know the truth here is you don't always know where you're going when you're building an app. It's like it goes from you are trying to build it and they will come to start building it and we'll figure out where it's going to go. With Agile that's kind of how it works. But so I wonder, can you give some examples of maybe customers or maybe genericize them if you need to. Data-driven apps in the cloud where customers were able to drive more efficiency, where the cloud buddy allowed the customers to do more with less? >> No, we have tons of these but I'll try and keep it to just a couple. One that comes to mind straight away is retrace. These folks built a blockchain app in the Oracle Cloud that allows manufacturers to actually share the supply chain with the consumer. So the consumer can see exactly, who made their product? Using what raw materials? Where they were sourced from? How it was done? All of that is visible to the consumer. And in order to be able to share that they had to work on a very diverse set of data. So they had everything from JSON documents to images as well as your traditional transactions in there. And they store all of that information inside the Oracle autonomous database, they were able to build their app and deploy it on the cloud. And they were able to do all of that very, very quickly. So, you know, that ability to work on multiple different data types in a single database really helped them build that product and get it to market in a very short amount of time. Another customer that's doing something really, really interesting is MindSense. So these guys operate the largest mines in Canada, Chile, and Peru. But what they do is they put these x-ray devices on the massive mechanical shovels that are at the cove or at the mine face. And what that does is it senses the contents of the buckets inside these mining machines. And it's looking to see at that content, to see how it can optimize the processing of the ore inside in that bucket. So they're looking to minimize the amount of power and water that it's going to take to process that. And also of course, minimize the amount of waste that's going to come out of that project. So all of that sensor data is sent into an autonomous database where it's going to be processed by a whole host of different users. So everything from the mine engineers to the geo scientists, to even their own data scientists utilize that data to drive their business forward. And what I love about these guys is they're not happy with building just one app. MindSense actually use our built-in low core development environment, APEX that comes as part of the autonomous database and they actually produce applications constantly for different aspects of their business using that technology. And it's actually able to accelerate those new apps to the business. It takes them now just a couple of days or weeks to produce an app instead of months or years to build those new apps. >> Great, thank you for that Maria. Gerald, I'm going to push you again. So, I said upfront and talked about microservices and the cloud and containers and you know, anybody in the developer space follows that very closely. But some of the things that we've been talking about here people might look at that and say, well, they're kind of antithetical to microservices. This is our Oracles monolithic approach. But when you think about the benefits of microservices, people want freedom of choice, technology choice, seen as a big advantage of microservices and containers. How do you address such an argument? >> Yeah, that's an excellent question and I get that quite often. The microservices architecture in general as I said before had architectures, Linux distributions, et cetera. It's kind of always a bit of like there's an academic approach and there's a pragmatic approach. And when you look at the microservices the original definitions that came out at the early 2010s. They actually never said that each microservice has to have a database. And they also never said that if a microservice has a database, you have to use a different technology for each microservice. Just like they never said, you have to write a microservice in a different programming language, right? So where I'm going with this is like, yes you know, sometimes when you look at some vendors out there, some niche players, they push this message or they jump on this academic approach of like each microservice has the best tool at hand or I'd use a different database for your purpose, et cetera. Which almost often comes across like us. You know, we want to stay part of the conversation. Nothing stops a developer from, you know using a multimodal database for the microservice and just using that as a document store, right? Or just using that as a relational database. And, you know, sometimes I mean, it was actually something that happened that was really interesting yesterday I don't know whether you follow Dave or not. But Facebook had an outage yesterday, right? And Facebook is one of those companies that are seen as the Silicon Valley, you know know how to do microservices companies. And when you add through the outage, well, what happened, right? Some unfortunate logical error with configuration as a force that took a database cluster down. So, you know, there you have it where you go like, well, maybe not every microservice is actually in fact talking to its own database or its own special purpose database. I think there, you know, well, what we should, the industry should be focusing much more on this argument of which technology to use? What's the right tool for a job? Is more to ask themselves, what business problem actually are we trying to solve? And therefore what's the right approach and the right technology for this. And so therefore, just as I said before, you know multimodal databases they do have strong benefits. They have many built-in functionalities that are already there and they allow you to reduce this complexity of having to know many different technologies, right? And so it's not only to store different data models either you know, treat a multimodal database as a chasing documents store or a relational database but most databases are multimodal since 20 plus years. But it's also actually being able to perhaps if you store that data together, you can perhaps actually derive additional value for somebody else but perhaps not for your application. But like for example, if you were to use Oracle Database you can actually write queries on top of all of that data. It doesn't really matter for our query engine whether it's the data is format that then chase or the data is formatted in rows and columns you can just rather than query over it. And that's actually very powerful for those guys that have to, you know get the reporting done the end of the day, the end of the week. And for those guys that are the data scientists that they want to figure out, you know which product performed really well or can we tweak something here and there. When you look into that space you still see a huge divergence between the guys to put data in kind of the altarpiece style and guys that try to derive new insights. And there's still a lot of ETL going around and, you know we have big data technologies that some of them come and went and some of them came in that are still around like Apache Spark which is still like a SQL engine on top of any of your data kind of going back to the same concept. And so I will say that, you know, for developers when we look at microservices it's like, first of all, is the argument you were making because the vendor or the technology you want to use tells you this argument or, you know, you kind of want to have an argument to use a specific technology? Or is it really more because it is the best technology, to best use for this given use case for this given application that you have? And if so there's of course, also nothing wrong to use a single purpose technology either, right? >> Yeah, I mean, whenever I talk about Oracle I always come back to the most important applications, the mission critical. It's very difficult to architect databases with microservices and containers. You have to be really, really careful. And so and again, it comes back to what we were talking before about with Maria that the complexity and the recovery. But Gerald I want to stay with you for a minute. So there's other data management technologies popping out there. I mean, I've seen some people saying, okay just leave the data in an S3 bucket. We can query that, then we've got some magic sauce to do that. And so why are you optimistic about you know, traditional database technology going forward? >> I would say because of the history of databases. So one thing that once struck me when I came to Oracle and then got to meet great people like Juan Luis and Andy Mendelsohn who had been here for a long, long time. I come to realization that relational databases are around for about 45 years now. And, you know, I was like, I'm too young to have been around then, right? So I was like, what else was around 45 years? It's like just the tech stack that we have today. It's like, how does this look like? Well, Linux only came out in 93. Well, databases pre-date Linux a lot rather than as I started digging I saw a lot of technologies come and go, right? And you mentioned before like the technologies that data management systems that we had that came and went like the columnar databases or XML databases, object databases. And even before relational databases before Cot gave us the relational model there were apparently these networks stores network databases which to some extent look very similar to adjacent documents. There wasn't a harder storing data and a hierarchy to format. And, you know when you then start actually reading the Cot paper and diving a little bit more into the relation model, that's I think one important crux in there that most of the industry keeps forgetting or it hasn't been around to even know. And that is that when Cot created the relational model, he actually focused not so much on the application putting the data in, but on future users and applications still being able to making sense out of the data, right? And that's kind of like I said before we had those network models, we had XML databases you have adjacent documents stores. And the one thing that they all have along with it is like the application that puts the data in decides the structure of the data. And that's all well and good if you had an application of the developer writing an application. It can become really tricky when 10 years later you still want to look at that data and the application that the developer is no longer around then you go like, what does this all mean? Where is the structure defined? What is this attribute? What does it mean? How does it correlate to others? And the one thing that people tend to forget is that it's actually the data that's here to stay not someone who does the applications where it is. Ideally, every company wants to store every single byte of data that they have because there might be future value in it. Economically may not make sense that's now much more feasible than just years ago. But if you could, why wouldn't you want to store all your data, right? And sometimes you actually have to store the data for seven years or whatever because the laws require you to. And so coming back then and you know, like 10 years from now and looking at the data and going like making sense of that data can actually become a lot more difficult and a lot more challenging than having to first figure out and how we store this data for general use. And that kind of was what the relational model was all about. We decompose the data structures into tables and columns with relationships amongst each other so therefore between each other. So that therefore if somebody wants to, you know typical example would be well you store some purchases from your web store, right? There's a customer attribute in it. There's some credit card payment information in it, just some product information on what the customer bought. Well, in the relational model if you just want to figure out which products were sold on a given day or week, you just would query the payment and products table to get the sense out of it. You don't need to touch the customer and so forth. And with the hierarchical model you have to first sit down and understand how is the structure, what is the customer? Where is the payment? You know, does the document start with the payment or does it start with the customer? Where do I find this information? And then in the very early days those databases even struggled to then not having to scan all the documents to get the data out. So coming back to your question a bit, I apologize for going on here. But you know, it's like relational databases have been around for 45 years. I actually argue it's one of the most successful software technologies that we have out there when you look in the overall industry, right? 45 years is like, in IT terms it's like from a star being the ones who are going supernova. You have said it before that many technologies coming and went, right? And just want to add a more really interesting example by the way is Hadoop and HDFS, right? They kind of gave us this additional promise of like, you know, the 2010s like 2012, 2013 the hype of Hadoop and so forth and (mumbles) and HDFS. And people are just like, just put everything into HDFS and worry about the data later, right? And we can query it and map reduce it and whatever. And we had customers actually coming to us they were like, great we have half a petabyte of data on an HDFS cluster and we have no clue what's stored in there. How do we figure this out? What are we going to do now? Now you had a big data cleansing problem. And so I think that is why databases and also data modeling is something that will not go away anytime soon. And I think databases and database technologies are here for quite a while to stay. Because many of those are people they don't think about what's happening to the data five years from now. And many of the niche players also and also frankly even Amazon you know, following with this single purpose thing is like, just use the right tool for the job for your application, right? Just pull in the data there the way you wanted. And it's like, okay, so you use technologies all over the place and then five years from now you have your data fragmented everywhere in different formats and, you know inconsistencies, and, and, and. And those are usually when you come back to this data-driven business critical business decision applications the worst case scenario you can have, right? Because now you need an army of people to actually do data cleansing. And there's not a coincidence that data science has become very, very popular the last recent years as we kind of went on with this proliferation of different database or data management technologies some of those are not even database. But I think I leave it at that. >> It's an interesting talk track because you're right. I mean, no schema on right was alluring, but it definitely created some problems. It also created an entire, you know you referenced the hyper specialized roles and did the data cleansing component. I mean, maybe technology will eventually solve that problem but it hasn't up at least up tonight. Okay, last question, Maria maybe you could start off and Gerald if you want to chime in as well it'd be great. I mean, it's interesting to watch this industry when Oracle sort of won the top database mantle. I mean, I watched it, I saw it. It was, remember it was Informix and it was (indistinct) too and of course, Microsoft you got to give them credit with SQL server, but Oracle won the database wars. And then everything got kind of quiet for awhile database was sort of boring. And then it exploded, you know, all the, you know not only SQL and the key-value stores and the cloud databases and this is really a hot area now. And when we looked at Oracle we said, okay, Oracle it's all about Oracle Database, but we've seen the kind of resurgence in MySQL which everybody thought, you know once Oracle bought Sun they were going to kill MySQL. But now we see you investing in HeatWave, TimesTen, we talked about In-Memory databases before. So where do those fit in Maria in the grand scheme? How should we think about Oracle's database portfolio? >> So there's lots of places where you'd use those different things. 'Cause just like any other industry there are going to be new and boutique use cases that are going to benefit from a more specialized product or single purpose product. So good examples off the top of my head of the kind of systems that would benefit from that would be things like a stock exchange system or a telephone exchange system. Both of those are latency critical transaction processing applications where they need microsecond response times. And that's going to exceed perhaps what you might normally get or deploy with a converged database. And so Oracle's TimesTen database our In-Memory database is perfect for those kinds of applications. But there's also a host of MySQL applications out there today and you said it yourself there Dave, HeatWave is a great place to provision and deploy those kinds of applications because it's going to run 100 times faster than AWS (mumbles). So, you know, there really is a place in the market and in our customer's systems and the needs they have for all of these different members of our database family here at Oracle. >> Yeah, well, the internet is basically running in the lamp stack so I see MySQL going away. All right Gerald, will give you the final word, bring us home. >> Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, as Maria said, I think it comes back to what we discussed before. There is obviously still needs for special technologies or different technologies than a relational database or multimodal database. Oracle has actually many more databases that people may first think of. Not only the three that we have already mentioned but there's even SP so the Oracle's NoSQL database. And, you know, on a high level Oracle is a data management company, right? And we want to give our customers the best tools and the best technology to manage all of their data. Rather than therefore there has to be a need or there should be a part of the business that also focuses on this highly specialized systems and this highly specialized technologies that address those use cases. And I think it makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, when the customer comes to Oracle they're not only getting this, take this one product you know, and if you don't like it your problem but actually you have choice, right? And choice allows you to make a decision based on what's best for you and not necessarily best for the vendor you're talking to. >> Well guys, really appreciate your time today and your insights. Maria, Gerald, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. >> Thank you very much for having us. >> And thanks for watching this Cube conversation this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Data Citizens'21. Brought to you by Collibra. >> We're back talking all things data at Data Citizens '21. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage, virtual coverage #DataCitizens21. I'm here with Jim Cushman who is Collibra's Chief Product Officer who shared the company's product vision at the event. Jim, welcome, good to see you. >> Thanks Dave, glad to be here. >> Now one of the themes of your session was all around self-service and access to data. This is a big big point of discussion amongst organizations that we talk to. I wonder if you could speak a little more toward what that means for Collibra and your customers and maybe some of the challenges of getting there. >> So Dave our ultimate goal at Collibra has always been to enable service access for all customers. Now, one of the challenges is they're limited to how they can access information, these knowledge workers. So our goal is to totally liberate them and so, why is this important? Well, in and of itself, self-service liberates, tens of millions of data lyric knowledge workers. This will drive more rapid, insightful decision-making, it'll drive productivity and competitiveness. And to make this level of adoption possible, the user experience has to be as intuitive as say, retail shopping, like I mentioned in my previous bit, like you're buying shoes online. But this is a little bit of foreshadowing and there's even a more profound future than just enabling a self-service, that we believe that a new class of shopper is coming online and she may not be as data-literate as our knowledge worker of today. Think of her as an algorithm developer, she builds machine learning or AI. The engagement model for this user will be, to kind of build automation, personalized experiences for people to engage with data. But in order to build that automation, she too needs data. Because she's not data literate, she needs the equivalent of a personal shopper. Someone that can guide her through the experience without actually having her know all the answers to the questions that would be asked. So this level of self-service goes one step further and becomes an automated service. One to really help find the best unbiased in a labeled training data to help train an algorithm in the future. >> That's, okay please continue. >> No please, and so all of this self and automated service, needs to be complemented with kind of a peace of mind that you're letting the right people gain access to it. So when you automate it, it's like, well, geez are the right people getting access to this. So it has to be governed and secured. This can't become like the Wild Wild West or like a data, what we call a data flea market or you know, data's everywhere. So, you know, history does quickly forget the companies that do not adjust to remain relevant. And I think we're in the midst of an exponential differentiation in Collibra data intelligence cloud is really kind of established to be the key catalyst for companies that will be on the winning side. >> Well, that's big because I mean, I'm a big believer in putting data in the hands of those folks in the line of business. And of course the big question that always comes up is, well, what about governance? What about security? So to the extent that you can federate that, that's huge. Because data is distributed by its very nature, it's going to stay that way. It's complex. You have to make the technology work in that complex environment, which brings me to this idea of low code or no code. It's gaining a lot of momentum in the industry. Everybody's talking about it, but there are a lot of questions, you know, what can you actually expect from no code and low code who were the right, you know potential users of that? Is there a difference between low and no? And so from your standpoint, why is this getting so much attention and why now, Jim? >> You don't want me to go back even 25 years ago we were talking about four and five generational languages that people were building. And it really didn't re reach the total value that folks were looking for because it always fell short. And you'd say, listen, if you didn't do all the work it took to get to a certain point how are you possibly going to finish it? And that's where the four GLs and five GLs fell short as capability. With our stuff where if you really get a great self-service how are you going to be self-service if it still requires somebody right though? Well, I guess you could do it if the only self-service people are people who write code, well, that's not bad factor. So if you truly want the ability to have something show up at your front door, without you having to call somebody or make any efforts to get it, then it needs to generate itself. The beauty of doing a catalog, new governance, understanding all the data that is available for choice, giving someone the selection that is using objective criteria, like this is the best objective cause if it's quality for what you want or it's labeled or it's unbiased and it has that level of deterministic value to it versus guessing or civic activity or what my neighbor used or what I used on my last job. Now that we've given people the power with confidence to say, this is the one that I want, the next step is okay, can you deliver it to them without them having to write any code? So imagine being able to generate those instructions from everything that we have in our metadata repository to say this is exactly the data I need you to go get and perform what we call a distributed query against those data sets and bringing it back to them. No code written. And here's the real beauty Dave, pipeline development, data pipeline development is a relatively expensive thing today and that's why people spend a lot of money maintaining these pipelines but imagine if there was zero cost to building your pipeline would you spend any money to maintain it? Probably not. So if we can build it for no cost, then why maintain it? Just build it every time you need it. And it then again, done on a self-service basis. >> I really liked the way you're thinking about this cause you're right. A lot of times when you hear self self-service it's about making the hardcore developers, you know be able to do self service. But the reality is, and you talk about that data pipeline it's complex a business person sitting there waiting for data or wants to put in new data and it turns out that the smallest unit is actually that entire team. And so you sit back and wait. And so to the extent that you can actually enable self-serve for the business by simplification that is it's been the holy grail for a while, isn't it? >> I agree. >> Let's look a little bit dig into where you're placing your bets. I mean, your head of products, you got to make bets, you know, certainly many many months if not years in advance. What are your big focus areas of investment right now? >> Yeah, certainly. So one of the things we've done very successfully since our origin over a decade ago, was building a business user-friendly software and it was predominantly kind of a plumbing or infrastructure area. So, business users love working with our software. They can find what they're looking for and they don't need to have some cryptic key of how to work with it. They can think about things in their terms and use our business glossary and they can navigate through what we call our data intelligence graph and find just what they're looking for. And we don't require a business to change everything just to make it happen. We give them kind of a universal translator to talk to the data. But with all that wonderful usability the common compromise that you make as well, its only good up to a certain amount of information, kind of like Excel. You know, you can do almost anything with Excel, right? But when you get to into large volumes, it becomes problematic and now you need that, you know go with a hardcore database and application on top. So what the industry is pulling us towards is far greater amounts of data not that just millions or even tens of millions but into the hundreds of millions and billions of things that we need to manage. So we have a huge focus on scale and performance on a global basis and that's a mouthful, right? Not only are you dealing with large amounts at performance but you have to do it in a global fashion and make it possible for somebody who might be operating in a Southeast Asia to have the same experience with the environment as they would be in Los Angeles. And the data needs to therefore go to the user as opposed to having the user come to the data as much as possible. So it really does put a lot of emphasis on some of what you call the non-functional requirements also known as the ilities and so our ability to bring the data and handle those large enterprise grade capabilities at scale and performance globally is what's really driving a good number of our investments today. >> I want to talk about data quality. This is a hard topic, but it's one that's so important. And I think it's been really challenging and somewhat misunderstood when you think about the chief data officer role itself, it kind of emerged from these highly regulated industries. And it came out of the data quality, kind of a back office role that's kind of gone front and center and now is, you know pretty strategic. Having said that, the you know, the prevailing philosophy is okay, we got to have this centralized data quality approach and that it's going to be imposed throughout. And it really is a hard problem and I think about, you know these hyper specialized roles, like, you know the quality engineer and so forth. And again, the prevailing wisdom is, if I could centralize that it can be lower cost and I can service these lines of business when in reality, the real value is, you know speed. And so how are you thinking about data quality? You hear so much about it. Why is it such a big deal and why is it so hard in a priority in the marketplace? You're thoughts. >> Thanks for that. So we of course acquired a data quality company, not burying delete, earlier this year LGQ and the big question is, okay, so why, why them and why now, not before? Well, at least a decade ago you started hearing people talk about big data. It was probably around 2009, it was becoming the big talk and what we don't really talk about when we talk about this ever expanding data, the byproduct is, this velocity of data, is increasing dramatically. So the speed of which new data is being presented the way in which data is changing is dramatic. And why is that important to data quality? Cause data quality historically for the last 30 years or so has been a rules-based business where you analyze the data at a certain point in time and you write a rule for it. Now there's already a room for error there cause humans are involved in writing those rules, but now with the increased velocity, the likelihood that it's going to atrophy and become no longer a valid or useful rule to you increases exponentially. So we were looking for a technology that was doing it in a new way similar to the way that we do auto classification when we're cataloging attributes is how do we look at millions of pieces of information around metadata and decide what it is to put it into context? The ability to automatically generate these rules and then continuously adapt as data changes to adjust these rules, is really a game changer for the industry itself. So we chose OwlDQ for that very reason. It's not only where they had this really kind of modern architecture to automatically generate rules but then to continuously monitor the data and adjust those rules, cutting out the huge amounts of costs, clearly having rules that aren't helping you save and frankly, you know how this works is, you know no one really complains about it until there's the squeaky wheel, you know, you get a fine or exposes and that's what is causing a lot of issues with data quality. And then why now? Well, I think and this is my speculation, but there's so much movement of data moving to the cloud right now. And so anyone who's made big investments in data quality historically for their on-premise data warehouses, Netezzas, Teradatas, Oracles, et cetera or even their data lakes are now moving to the cloud. And they're saying, hmm, what investments are we going to carry forward that we had on premise? And which ones are we going to start a new from and data quality seems to be ripe for something new and so these new investments in data in the cloud are now looking up. Let's look at new next generation method of doing data quality. And that's where we're really fitting in nicely. And of course, finally, you can't really do data governance and cataloging without data quality and data quality without data governance and cataloging is kind of a hollow a long-term story. So the three working together is very a powerful story. >> I got to ask you some Colombo questions about this cause you know, you're right. It's rules-based and so my, you know, immediate like, okay what are the rules around COVID or hybrid work, right? If there's static rules, there's so much unknown and so what you're saying is you've got a dynamic process to do that. So and one of the my gripes about the whole big data thing and you know, you referenced that 2009, 2010, I loved it, because there was a lot of profound things about Hadoop and a lot of failings. And one of the challenges is really that there's no context in the big data system. You know, the data, the folks in the data pipeline, they don't have the business context. So my question is, as you it's and it sounds like you've got this awesome magic to automate, who would adjudicates the dynamic rules? How does, do humans play a role? What role do they play there? >> Absolutely. There's the notion of sampling. So you can only trust a machine for certain point before you want to have some type of a steward or a assisted or supervised learning that goes on. So, you know, suspect maybe one out of 10, one out of 20 rules that are generated, you might want to have somebody look at it. Like there's ways to do the equivalent of supervised learning without actually paying the cost of the supervisor. Let's suppose that you've written a thousand rules for your system that are five years old. And we come in with our ability and we analyze the same data and we generate rules ourselves. We compare the two themselves and there's absolutely going to be some exact matching some overlap that validates one another. And that gives you confidence that the machine learning did exactly what you did and what's likelihood that you guessed wrong and machine learning guessed wrong exactly the right way that seems pretty, pretty small concern. So now you're really saying, well, why are they different? And now you start to study the samples. And what we learned, is that our ability to generate between 60 and 70% of these rules anytime we were different, we were right. Almost every single time, like almost every, like only one out of a hundred where was it proven that the handwritten rule was a more profound outcome. And of course, it's machine learning. So it learned, and it caught up the next time. So that's the true power of this innovation is it learns from the data as well as the stewards and it gives you confidence that you're not missing things and you start to trust it, but you should never completely walk away. You should constantly do your periodic sampling. >> And the secret sauce is math. I mean, I remember back in the mid two thousands it was like 2006 timeframe. You mentioned, you know, auto classification. That was a big problem with the federal rules of civil procedure trying to figure out, okay, you know, had humans classifying humans don't scale, until you had, you know, all kinds of support, vector machines and probabilistic, latent semantic indexing, but you didn't have the compute power or the data corpus to really do it well. So it sounds like a combination of you know, cheaper compute, a lot more data and machine intelligence have really changed the game there. Is that a fair assumption? >> That's absolutely fair. I think the other aspect that to keep in mind is that it's an innovative technology that actually brings all that compute as close into the data as possible. One of the greatest expenses of doing data quality was of course, the profiling concept bringing up the statistics of what the data represents. And in most traditional senses that data is completely pulled out of the database itself, into a separate area and now you start talking about terabytes or petabytes of data that takes a long time to extract that much information from a database and then to process through it all. Imagine bringing that profiling closer into the database, what's happening in the NAPE the same space as the data, that cuts out like 90% of the unnecessary processing speed. It also gives you the ability to do it incrementally. So you're not doing a full analysis each time, you have kind of an expensive play when you're first looking at a full database and then maybe over the course of a day, an hour, 15 minutes you've only seen a small segment of change. So now it feels more like a transactional analysis process. >> Yeah and that's, you know, again, we talked about the old days of big data, you know the Hadoop days and the boat was profound was it was all about bringing five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data, but that didn't happen. We shoved it all into a central data lake. I'm really excited for Collibra. It sounds like you guys are really on the cutting edge and doing some really interesting things. I'll give you the last word, Jim, please bring us on. >> Yeah thanks Dave. So one of the really exciting things about our solution is, it trying to be a combination of best of breed capabilities but also integrated. So to actually create a full and complete story that customers are looking for, you don't want to have them worry about a complex integration in trying to manage multiple vendors and the times of their releases, et cetera. If you can find one customer that you don't have to say well, that's good enough, but every single component is in fact best of breed that you can find in it's integrated and they'll manage it as a service. You truly unlock the power of your data, literate individuals in your organization. And again, that goes back to our overall goal. How do we empower the hundreds of millions of people around the world who are just looking for insightful decision? Did they feel completely locked it's as if they're looking for information before the internet and they're kind of limited to whatever their local library has and if we can truly become somewhat like the internet of data, we make it possible for anyone to access it without controls but we still govern it and secure it for privacy laws, I think we do have a chance to to change the world for better. >> Great. Thank you so much, Jim. Great conversation really appreciate your time and your insights. >> Yeah, thank you, Dave. Appreciate it. >> All right and thank you for watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of Data Citizens'21. My name is Dave Vellante. Keep it right there for more great content. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, and Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella sees a different future for cloud computing over the coming decade. And as Microsoft Ignite keynote, he laid out the five attributes that will define the cloud in the next 10 years. His vision is a cloud platform that is decentralized, ubiquitous, intelligent, sensing, and trusted. One that actually tickles the senses and levels the playing field between consumers and creators by placing tools in the hands of more people around the world. Welcome to this week's wiki buns cube insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll review the highlights of Nadella's Ignite keynote share our thoughts on what it means for the future of cloud specifically, and the tech industry generally. We'll also give you a more tactical view of Microsoft and compare its performance within the ETR's dataset to its peers. Satya Nadella's forward-looking cloud attributes comprised five key vectors that he talked about. The first was ubiquitous and decentralized computing, Nadella made the statement that we've reached peak centralization today that we're witnessing radical changes in computing architecture from the materials used to semiconductors software, and that is going to serve a new frontier that's forming at the edge. Nadella envisions a world where there will be more sovereignty and decentralized control. We couldn't agree more. The cloud universe is expanding and the lines are blurring between what's being done on-prem, across public clouds and the cloud experience which is going to extend everywhere, including the edge. And of course, data is going to be flowing through this hyper decentralized system. Next was sovereign data and ambient intelligence. To us data sovereignty means that whatever the local laws are the system is going to have the intelligence to govern privacy, ensure data provenance, and adhere to corporate edicts. Ambient intelligence is a field of research that leverages pervasive sensor networks and AI to respond to and anticipate humans and machines. Nadella sees the future where a business logic will move from being code that is written to code that is actually learned from data, pretty interesting. He sees this autodidactic system if you will, as fundamental to tackling big problems like personalized medicine or even climate change. Third, he talked about empowered creators and communities everywhere. Nadella said, there'll be increasingly a balance between consumption and creation. His talking about an economic balance essentially he's predicting that creation will be democratized and his vision is to put tools in the hands of people to allow them to tip the scales toward knowledge workers, frontline employees, students, everyone, essentially creating content, applications, code, et cetera power to the people if you will. And underneath this vision is a new form of or emerging new forms of Silicon operating systems and entirely transformative digital experiences. Next was economic opportunity for the global workforce. So picking up on the accelerated themes of remote work that were catalyzed by COVID, Nadella emphasize that the future has to accommodate flexibility in how, when and where people work. He sees a new model of productivity emerging, not necessarily defined by corporate revenue per employee for example, but by the economic advantages that become accessible to everyone through better access to technology, collaboration tools, education, and healthy lifestyles, all enabled by this ubiquitous cloud. Finally, trust by design, Nadella said that ethical principles must govern the design, development and deployment of AI. The system he said must be secure by design with zero trust built in to protect business assets and personal privacy. So this was a big vision that Nadella put forth it, connects the dots between bits and atoms and sets up Microsoft to extend its reach well beyond office productivity tools and cloud infrastructure. He cited the Microsoft cloud as the underpinning of its future and specifically called out Teams, he mentioned 365, HoloLens 2 and the announcement of Microsoft Mesh, a new mixed reality platform. Nadella said Mesh will do for virtual reality what X-Box live did for gaming. Take the experience from single person to multi-person imagine holographic images with no screens, empowering advances in medicine, science, technology, and very importantly social interactions. Now, one of the things that we took away from his talk was this notion of Microsoft as a technology arm's dealer. No, we're not, Nadella avoided slamming the competition directly by name one statement that he made, stood out. He said, " No customer wants to be dependent on a provider that sells them technology on one end and competes with them on the other" And to us this was a direct shot at Amazon, Google and Apple. How so you ask? And what does it tell us? In his book "Seeing Digital" author David Moschella said, "that Silicon Valley broadly defined as a duel disruption agenda." What does that mean? Not only are large tech companies disrupting horizontal layers of the tech stack like compute, storage, networking, database, security, applications, and so forth. But they're also disrupting industries Amazon and media, grocery, logistics, for example. Google and Amazon on healthcare, Google and Apple on automobiles, all three in FinTech. And it's likely this is just the beginning but Nadella's posture suggests that Microsoft for now anyway, is content being mostly a horizontal technology provider, aka arms dealer. Now, there are some examples where you could argue that Microsoft sort of crosses the line maybe as a games developer or as a SAS competitor. Do you really want to, if you're a SAS player do you want to run your system on Azure and compete with Microsoft? Well, it depends if you're vertically oriented or maybe horizontal in their swim lanes, but anyway, these are more natural cohorts to technology than say for example, Amazon's retail business. So I thought that was something that was worth taking a look at. All right, let's take a quick look at how Microsoft compares to a couple of the great tech giants of the past several decades. Here's a financial snapshot of Microsoft compared to Oracle a highly profitable software company and IBM an industry legend. The first two things that jumped right out of Microsoft, size and it's growth rate. Microsoft is twice the revenue of IBM and nearly four extent of Oracle. And yet Microsoft is growing in the mid-teens compared to low single digits for Oracle and IBM continues to shrink so extensible you can grow. Microsoft's gross margin model has been pulled down by its hardware business but its operating margins are unbelievable. Meanwhile, the cash on its balance sheet is immense much larger than Oracles, which is very impressive. It's certainly dwarfs that of IBM, a company that had to take on a lot of debt to acquire Red Hat and has a balance sheet, that increasingly looks more like Dell's than it's historical self. And then on the last two rows Oracle and IBM, both owners of their own cloud have been lapped by Microsoft in terms of CapEx and research & development investment. Ironically, as we pointed out, IBM's R & D spend in 2007 the year after AWS launched the modern era of cloud was comparable to that of Microsoft. Let's now pivot it to some of the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft fares. We'll start by sharing a fundamental basis of the ETR methodology, that is the calculation of net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum and here's how it's derived. This chart shows the components of Microsoft's net score. It comprises five parts and represents the percentage of customers within the ETR survey with specific spending profiles. The lime green is new adoptions, the forest green is increased spend of 6% or more for 2021 relative to 2020, the gray is flat spend, the pinkish slice is spend declining by more than 6% or 6% or more relative to last year and the bright red is replacing the platform. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score. As you can see, Microsoft's net score is 53% which is very high for $150 billion Company. Now let's put that in context and expand the scope here a little bit. This chart shows how Microsoft fares relative to its peers, the vertical axis shows net score against spending velocity and the horizontal axis shows market share. Market share measures pervasiveness in the survey. In the table insert, you can see the vendors they're sorted by net score and the shared end column is there as well, which represents the number of shared accounts in the dataset. On both accounts bigger is better. Now note the red dotted line, that's the 40% watermark which is my personal indicator of an elevated net score anything above that in our view is really solid. Microsoft is as usual off the charts strong well to the right with it's market presence and then an overall net score of 53% as we showed earlier. And then there's Azure, separate from Microsoft overall. We wanted to plot that specifically which of course it doesn't have the presence of Microsoft overall, no surprise, but it's still prominent on the x-axis and it has a net score approaching 70%, which is quite amazing. AWS not surprisingly is highly elevated with a presence that's even larger than Azure. And you can see Zoom, Salesforce and Google Cloud all above the 40% line. Google as we've reported is well off the pace in the horizontal axis and even though its net score is elevated, we would like to see it even higher, given its smaller size relative to AWS and Azure. You know, SAP always stands out because it's a large company and it's got a net score that's hovering just under 30%. It's not above that 40% line, but it's solid. And you can see IBM and Oracle now we're showing here IBM and Oracle overall so it's the whole kitchen sink comparable to Microsoft that turquoise dot, if you will. So you can see why those two are valued much lower Microsoft. The large base of its business that's declining is much, much larger than the pieces of their business that are growing. Now Oracle has some momentum, the Back Aaron's article on February 19th, which declared Oracle a cloud giant and it declared its stock a buy combined with some earnings upgrades including one today from Ramo Lyncho of Barclays has catapulted the stock to all time highs and a valuation over $200 billion. IBM is a different story as we've discussed frequently Arvind has a lot of work to do to get this national treasure back to what's prominent itself. Okay, let now unpack Microsoft's vast portfolio a bit and see where it's doing well and where it's making moves and maybe where it's struggling, some. This graphic shows Microsoft's net score across its entire product portfolio within the ETR taxonomy. And you can see it's pretty much killing it across the board. Microsoft plays in almost every sector in the ETR taxonomy and you can see the 40% red line and how many of its offerings are above that line. The yellow bar being the most recent survey and while there's quite a bit of gray, i.e. flat spend relative to 2020, we're talking about some very tough compares from last year. And yet there's still a huge chunk of the portfolio in the green meaning spending momentum is actually up from last year and some of Microsoft's most important sectors like Cloud and Teams and Analytics. Look only Skype and Microsoft Dynamics are lagging, so really nice story there in our view. Now let's come back and take a look at Microsoft's cloud business specifically as compared to its peers. So Satya basically said that Microsoft's future will build on top of its cloud and looking at this picture it's pretty encouraging for the company. This chart, again, shows net score or spending momentum inside specifically Fortune 500 customers and it's a key bellwether in the ETR dataset, and you can see Azure and Azure functions well above the 40% red line and extremely well positioned relative to AWS and GCP. Importantly, the yellow bar tells us that compared to previous surveys Microsoft's cloud business is actually gaining momentum in this very important sector. Now, other notable call-outs on this chart VMware Cloud, which, it's on-prem hybrid cloud and VMware Cloud on AWS, which is reportedly doing well but off from the momentum of its highs last spring. You can see Oracle jumped up indicating cloud momentum, but still well below the performance of the largest cloud players. The IBM Cloud appears to be a non-factor in the survey and as we previously stated, we'd like to see IBM recalibrate the financials for its cloud business and come up with a reporting framework that better represents the prevailing mental model of cloud computing. We think a cleaner number would allow IBM to build on the Red Hat momentum. I'm not sure what to make of the HPE boost, it looks significant, but in digging into the data it's only 17 data points, but look 17 within the Fortune 500 companies is not terrible. And HPE net score in that sector is more than double its overall cloud net score so that's positive we think. Okay, let's wrap by looking at how customers are thinking about multi-cloud adoption and really this data that we're about to show you simply asking customers about clouds they're using versus any type of long-term vision. So it's a good representation of what's happening today and what CIO is are thinking about in the near future particularly over the next 12 months. The survey asks customers to describe their cloud provider usage and strategy. You can see that only 14% of the survey respondents have exclusively a mono-cloud strategy, but now add in another 22% who were predominantly single cloud and you now have more than a third of the customer base gravitating toward mono-cloud. Another 14% say they're concentrating cloud providers more narrowly. Now on the flip side, you've got a big group, 29% that are moving toward multi-cloud and if you add in the additional 16% who say they are and will continue to be evenly spread, 45% of the survey is solidly headed in that direction so it's a mixed picture. What's the takeaway? Well, we think Andy Jassy is right when he says that while many customers use more than one cloud, they tend to have a primary provider and have something like a 70,30 or even 80,20 split between primary and secondary clouds. Now we think, however that this will change, but only to the extent that the vendor community is adding value on top of the existing hyperscale clouds. What we're saying and have been saying is that there is a real opportunity to create value on top of the cloud infrastructure that's being built out by AWS, Google and Microsoft. Instead of fearing cloud, the vendor community should be embracing it creating a layer on top, abstracting away the underlying complexities associated with cloud native, exploiting cloud native, and then building on top of that. Snowflake's data cloud vision is right on in my view, we can envision virtually every layer of the stack following suit. Even within database there are opportunities to identify more granular segments across clouds. For example, despite Snowflakes early multi-cloud lead you're seeing competitive firms like Teradata begin to architect a system across clouds that can query data warehouses from distributed locations, including on-prem as part of what they refer to as a data fabric, sounds kind of like Snowflakes global data mesh, or maybe better Zhamak Dehghani's data mesh. Yeah, sure but Teradata has capabilities that Snowflake doesn't for example, the ability to do complex joins and we can see plenty of market for both companies to differentiate. And why shouldn't similar vision extend from on-prem, across clouds to the edge for data protection, security, governance, hybrid compute ,analytics, federated applications, its a huge market that the hyperscale providers are likely too busy worrying about their own walled gardens to start building across on top of their competitors clouds. So Dell, HPE, VMware, Cisco, Palo Alto Fortunate, Zscaler or Cohesity, Veeam and hundreds of other tech companies, including by the way IBM and Oracle should be saying thank you to AWS, Google and Microsoft for spending all that money to build out great infrastructure on which they can build value, tap for future growth. And many of you will say, Hey, we're already doing this. Okay, I'll be watching to see the ratio of real versus slideware because generally today, in my opinion the denominator is much larger than the numerator. So when that ratio hits 1X we'll know it started to become real. Okay, that's it for today remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe. I publish weekly on wikibun.com and siliconangle.com. Please comment on my LinkedIn post or you can tweet me @DVellante or feel free to email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey and data science action. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, thanks for watching and we'll see you next time. (relaxing music)

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin pleased to be joined once again by the co CEO of mem sequel, Raj Verma, Raj, welcome back to the program. >>Thank you very much, Lisa. Great to see you as always. >>It's great to see you as well. I always enjoy our conversations. So why don't you start off because something that's been in the news the last couple of months besides COVID is one of your competitors, snowflake confidentially filed IPO documents with the sec a couple months ago. Just wanted to get your perspective on from a market standpoint. What does that signify? >>Yeah. Firstly, congratulations to the snowflake team. Uh, you know, I've, I have a bunch of friends there, you know, John McMahon, my explosives on the board. And I remember having a conversation with him about seven years ago and it was just starting off and I'm just so glad for him and Bob Mobileye. And, and as I said, a bunch of my friends who are there, um, they're executed brilliantly and, uh, I'm thrilled for that. So, um, we are hearing as to what the outcomes are likely to be. And, uh, it just seems like, uh, you know, it's going to be a great help. Um, and I think what it signifies is firstly, if you have a bit technology and if you execute well, good things happen and there's enough room for innovation here. So that is one, the second aspect is I think, and I think more importantly, what it signifies is a change of thought in the database market. >>If you really see, um, and know if my memory serves me right in the last two decades or probably two and a half buckets, we just had one company go public in the database space and that was Mongo. And, um, and that was in, I think October, 2017 and then, uh, two and a half years. So three years we've seen on other ones and uh, from the industry that we know, um, you know, there are going to be a couple that are going to go out in the next 18 months, 24 months as well. So the fact is that we had a, the iron grip on the database market for almost, you know, more than two decades. It was Oracle, IBM that a bit of Sybase and SAP HANA. And now there are a bunch of companies which are helping solve the problems of tomorrow with the technology of the month. >>And, uh, and that is, um, that is snowflake is a primary example of that. Um, so that's a, that's good change. God is good. I do think the incumbents are gonna find it harder and harder going forward. And also if you really see the evolution of the database market, the first sort of workloads that moved to the cloud with the developer workloads and the big benefactor that that was the no secret movement and one company that executed in my opinion, the best was Mongol. And they were the big benefactor of that, that sort of movement to the cloud. The second was the very large, but Moisey database data warehouse market, and a big benefactor of that has been snowflake big queries, the other one as well. However, the biggest set of tsunami of data that's we are seeing move to the cloud is the operational data, which is the marriage of historical data with real time data to give you real time insights as, or what we call the now are now. >>And that's going to be much, much bigger than, uh, than both the, you know, sequel or the developer data movement and the data warehouse. And we hope to be a benefactor of that. And then the shake up that happens in the database market and the change that's happening there, isn't a vendor take on market anymore, and that's good because you don't then have the stranglehold that Oracle had and you know, some of the ways that are treated as customers and help them to run some, et cetera, um, yeah. And giving customers choice so that they can choose what's best for the business is going to be, it's going to be great. And me are going to see seven to 10 really good database companies in large, in the next decade. And we surely hope them secret as one of them of, we definitely have the, have the potential to be one of them. >>You have the market, we have the product, we have the customers. So, you know, as I tell my team, it's up to us as to what we make of it. And, um, you know, we don't worry that much about competition. You did mention snowflake being advantage station. We, yeah, sure. You know, we do compete on certain opportunities. However, their value proposition is a little more single-threaded than ours. So they are more than the Datavail house space are. Our vision of the board is that, uh, you know, you should have a single store for data, whether it's database house, whether it's developer data or whether it's operational data or DP data. And, uh, you know, watch this space from orders. We make somebody exciting announcements. >>So dig into that a little bit more because some of the news and the commentary Raj in the last, maybe six weeks since the snowflake, um, IPO confidential information was released was, is the enterprise data warehouse dead. And you just had a couple of interesting things we're talking about now, we're seeing this momentum, huge second database to go public in two and a half bigots. That's huge, but that's also signifying to a point you made earlier. There's, there's a shift. So memes SQL isn't, we're not talking about an EDW. We're talking about operational real time. How do you see that if you're not looking in the rear view mirror, those competitors, how do you see that market and the opportunities? >>Yeah, I, I don't think the data warehouse market is dead at thought. I think the very fact that, you know, smoke makers going out at whatever valuation they go out, which is, you know, tens of billions of dollars is, um, is a testimony to the fact that, you know, it's a fancy ad master. This is what it is. I mean, data warehouses have existed for decades and, uh, there is a better way of doing it. So it's a fancy of mousetrap and, and that's great. I mean, that's way to money and it's clearly been demonstrated. Now what we are saying is that I think that is a better way to manage the organization's data rather than having them categorized in buckets of, you know, data warehouse, data developer, data DP, or transactional data, you know, uh, analytical data. Is there a way to imagine the future where there is one single database that you can quit eat, or data warehouse workloads for operational workloads, for OLTB work acknowledge and gain insights. And that's not a fancier mousetrap that is a data strategy reimagine. And, uh, and that's our mission. That's our purpose in life right now and are very excited about it's going to be hard. It's not, it's not a given it's a hard problem to solve. Otherwise, if you can solve it before we have the, uh, we have the goods to deliver and the talent, the deliberate, and, um, we are, we are trying it out with some very, very marquee customers. So we've been very excited about, >>Well, changing of the guard, as you mentioned, is hard. The opposite is easy, the opposite, you know, ignoring and not wanting to get out of that comfort zone. That's taken the easy route in my opinion. So it seems like we've got in the market, this, this significant changing of the guard, not just in, you know, what some of your competition is doing, but also from a customer's perspective, how do you help customers, especially institutions that have been around for decades and decades and decades pivot quickly so that the changing of the guard doesn't wipe them out. >>Yeah. Um, I actually think slightly differently. I think changing of the guard, um, wiping out a customer is if they stick or are resistant to the fact that there is a change of God, you know, and if they, if they hold on to, as we said in our previous conversation, if you stick onto the decisions of yesterday, you will not see the Sundays of tomorrow. So I do think that, uh, you know, change, you have a, God is a, is a symbolism, not even a symbolism as a statement to our customers to say, there is a better way of doing, uh, what you are doing to solve tomorrow's problem. And then doesn't have to be the Oracles and the BB tools and the psychosis of the world. So that's, that's one aspect of it. The second thing is, as I've always said, you're not really that obsessed about, uh, competition. >>The competition will do what they do. Uh, we are really very focused on having an impact in the shortest period of time on our customers and, uh, hopefully a positive impact. And if you can't do it, then, you know, I've had conversations with a few of them saying, maybe be not the company for you. Uh, it's not as if I have to sort of, software's a good one. I supply to the successful customers in the bag to do the unsuccessful with customers. The fact is that, you know, in certain, certain places there isn't an organizational alignment and you don't succeed. However, we do have young, we have in the last 14 months or so made tremendous investments into really ease of use of flexibility of architecture, which is hybrid and tactile, and that shrinking the total time to value for our customers. Because if I, if I believe you, if you do these three things, you will have an impact, a positive impact on the customer, in the sharpest, uh, amount of time and your Lindy or yourself. And I think that is more important than worrying needlessly about competition. And then the competition will do what they do. But if you keep your customers happy by having a positive impact, um, successes, only amount of time, >>Customers and employees are essential to that. But I like that you talked about customer obsession because you see it all over the place. Many people use it as descriptors of themselves and their LinkedIn profiles, for example, but for it actually to be meaningful, you talked about the whole objective is to make an impact for your customers. How do you define that? So that it's not just, I don't want to say marketing term, but something that everyone says they're customer obsessed showing it right within the pudding. >>It's easy to say we are customer obsessed. I mean, this organization is going to say we don't care about our customer. So, you know, of course we all want our customers to be successful. How do you, that's easy, you know, having a cultural value that we put our customers first is, was easy, but we didn't choose to do that. What we said is how do you have an impact on your customer in the shortest amount of time, right? That is, that is what you have. I'm sequel and Lee have now designed every process in mem sequel to align with that word. If, if that is a decision that we have to make a B essentially lenses through the fact of what is in the best interest of our customer and what will get us to have an impact, a positive impact on the customer in the shortest amount of time, that is a decision, which is a buy decision for us to make. >>A lot of times it's more expensive. It's a, a lot duffel. It stresses the, um, the, the, the organization, um, and the people in it. But that's, uh, that's what you have to do if you are. Um, if you are, you know, as, as they say, customer obsessed, um, it is, it's just a term which is easy to use, but very difficult to put here too. And we want to be a tactic. It right to be, we are going to continue to learn. It's a, it's not a destination, it's a journey. And we continue to take decisions and refine our processes do, as I said, huh, impact on our customers in the shortest amount of time. Now, obsessiveness, a lot of times is seen as a negative in the current society that we live in. And there's a reason for that because the, they view view obsession, but I view obsession and aggression is that is a punishing expression, which is really akin to just being cruel, you know, leading by fear and all the rest of it, which is as no place in any organization. >>And I actually think that in society at large, nothing, I believe that doesn't have any place in society. And then there's something which I dumb as instrumentalists, which is, this is where we were. This is where we are. This is where we are going and how do we track our progress on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? And if we, aren't sort of getting to that level that we believe we should get to, if our customers, aren't seeing the value of dramas in the shortest amount of time, what is it that we need to do better? Um, is that obsession, our instrumental aggression is, is, is what we are all about. And that brings with it a level of intensity, which is not what everyone, but then when you are, you know, challenging the institutions which have, uh, you know, the also has to speak for naked, it's gonna take a Herculean effort to ask them. And, uh, you know, the, the basically believed that instrumental aggression in terms of the, uh, you know, having an impact on customer in the shop to smile at time is gonna get us there. And a, and B are glad to have people who actually believe in that. And, uh, and that's why we've made tremendous progress over the course of last, uh, two years. >>So instrumental aggression. Interesting. How you talked about that, it's a provocative statement, but the way that you talk about it almost seems it's a prescriptive, very strategic, well thought out type of moving the business forward, busting through the old guard. Cause let's face it, you know, the big guys, the Oracles they're there, they're not easy for customers to rip and replace, but instrumental aggression seems to kind of go hand in hand with the changing of the guard. You've got to embrace one to be able to deliver the other, right. >>Yeah. So ducks, I think even a fever inventing something new. Um, I mean, yeah, it just requires instrumental aggression, I believe is a, uh, uh, anchor core to most successful organizations, whether in IP or anywhere else. That is a, that is a site to that obsession. And not, I'm not talking about instrumental aggression here, but I'm really talking about the obsession to succeed, uh, which, uh, you know, gave rise to what I think someone called us brilliant jerks and all the rest of it, because that is the sort of negative side of off obsession. And I think the challenge of leadership in our times is how do you foster the positivity of obsession, which needs to change a garden? And that's the instrumental aggression as a, as a tool to, to go there. And how do you prevent the negative side of it, which says that the end justifies the means and, and that's just not true. >>Uh, there is, there is something that's right, and there's something that's wrong. And, uh, and if that is made very clear that the end does not justify the meanings, it creates a lot of trust between, um, Austin, our customers, also not employees. And when their inherent trust, um, happens, then you foster, as I said, the positive side of obsession and, um, get away from the negative side of obsession that you've seen in certain very, very large companies. Now, the one thing that instrumental aggression and obsession brings to a company is that, uh, it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, and this is what I continue to tell. Um, our, our employees and my audience is, um, you know, be comfortable being uncomfortable because what you're trying to do is odd. And it's going to take a, as I say, a Herculean effort. So let's, uh, let's be comfortable being uncomfortable, uh, and have fun doing it. If there's, uh, how many people get a chance to change, uh, industry, which was dominated by a few bears and have such a positive impact, not only on our estimates, but society at large. And, uh, I think it's a privilege. Pressure is a privilege. And, uh, I'm grateful for the opportunity that's been afforded to me and to my colleagues. And, uh, >>It's a great way. Sorry. That's a great way of looking at it. Pressure is a privilege. If you think about, I love what you said, I always say, get, you know, get comfortably uncomfortable. It is a heart in any aspect, whether it's your workouts or your discipline, you know, working from home, it's a hard thing to do to your point. There's a lot of positivity that can come from it. If we think of what's happening this week alone and the U S political climate changing of the old guard, we've got Kamala Harris as our first female VP nominee and how many years, but also from a diversity angle, from a women leadership perspective, blowing the door wide open. >>It's great to see that, um, you know, we have someone that my daughter's going to look up to and say that, uh, you know, yes, there is, there is a place for us in society and we can have a meaningful contribution to society. So I actually think that San Antonio versus nomination is, um, you know, it's a simple ism of change of God, for sure. Um, I have no political agendas, um, at all. Then you can see how it pans out in November, but the one thing is for sure, but it's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, a change of God, or this makes a lot of people. And, and, uh, and you know, I was reflecting back on something else and in everything that I've actually achieved, which is, is something I'm proud of. I had to go through a zone, but I was extremely uncomfortable. >>Uh, Gould only happens when you have uncomfortable, um, girl to happens in your conference room. And, um, whether it's, um, you know, running them sequel, uh, or are having a society change, uh, if you stick to your comfort zone, you stick to your prejudices and viruses because it's just comfortable there, there's a, uh, wanting to be awkward. And, uh, and, and I think that that's that essential change of God. As I said, at the cost of repeating myself will make a lot of people uncomfortable, but I honestly believe will move the society forward. And, uh, yeah, I, um, I couldn't be more proud of, uh, having a California San Diego would be nominated and it's a, she brings diversity multicultural. And what I loved about it was, you know, we talk about culture and all the rest of it. And she, she was talking about how our parents who were both, uh, uh, at the Berkeley when she was growing up, we were picking up from and she be, you know, in our, in our prime going to protests and Valley. >>And so it was just, uh, it was ingrained in her to be able to challenge the status school and move the society forward. And, uh, you know, she was comfortable being uncomfortable when she was in that, you know, added that. And that's good. Maybe not. I think we sort of, uh, yeah, I, yeah, let's see, let's see what November brings to us, but, um, I think just a nomination has, uh, exchanged a lot of things and, uh, if it's not this time, it can be the next time, but at the time off the bat, but you're going to have a woman by woman president in my lifetime. Um, that's um, I minced about them, uh, and that's just great. >>Well, I should hope so too. And there's so many, I know we've got to wrap here, but so many different data points that show that that technology company actually, companies, excuse me, with women in leadership position are significantly 10, 20% more profitable. So the changing of the guard is hard as you said, but it's time to get uncomfortable. And this is a great example of that as well as the culture that you have at mem sequel Raja. It's always a pleasure and a philosophical time talking with you. I thank you for joining me on the cube today. >>Thank you me since I'm just stay safe, though. >>You as well for my guest, Raj Burma, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching this cube conversation.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> In June of this year, Snowflake filed a confidential document suggesting that it would do an IPO. Now of course, everybody knows about it, found out about it and it had a $20 billion valuation. So, many in the community and the investment community and so forth are excited about this IPO. It could be the hottest one of the year, and we're getting a number of questions from investors and practitioners and the entire Wiki bond, ETR and CUBE community. So, welcome everybody. This is Dave Vellante. This is "CUBE Insights" powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to unpack five critical questions around Snowflake's IPO or pending IPO. And with me to discuss that is Erik Bradley. He's the Chief Engagement Strategists at ETR and he's also the Managing Director of VENN. Erik, thanks for coming on and great to see you as always. >> Great to see you too. Always enjoy being on the show. Thank you. >> Now for those of you don't know Erik, VENN is a roundtable that he hosts and he brings in CIOs, IT practitioners, CSOs, data experts and they have an open and frank conversation, but it's private to ETR clients. But they know who the individual is, what their role is, what their title is, et cetera and it's a kind of an ask me anything. And I participated in one of them this past week. Outstanding. And we're going to share with you some of that. But let's bring up the agenda slide if we can here. And these are really some of the questions that we're getting from investors and others in the community. There's really five areas that we want to address. The first is what's happening in this enterprise data warehouse marketplace? The second thing is kind of a one area. What about the legacy EDW players like Oracle and Teradata and Netezza? The third question we get a lot is can Snowflake compete with the big cloud players? Amazon, Google, Microsoft. I mean they're right there in the heart, in the thick of things there. And then what about that multi-cloud strategy? Is that viable? How much of a differentiator is that? And then we get a lot of questions on the TAM. Meaning the total available market. How big is that market? Does it justify the valuation for Snowflake? Now, Erik, you've been doing this now. You've run a couple VENNs, you've been following this, you've done some other work that you've done with Eagle Alpha. What's your, just your initial sort of takeaway from all this work that you've been doing. >> Yeah, sure. So my first take on Snowflake was about two and a half years ago. I actually hosted them for one of my VENN interviews and my initial thought was impressed. So impressed. They were talking at the time about their ability to kind of make ease of use of a multi-cloud strategy. At the time although I was impressed, I did not expect the growth and the hyper growth that we have seen now. But, looking at the company in its current iteration, I understand where the hype is coming from. I mean, it's 12 and a half billion private valuation in the last round. The least confidential IPO (laughs) anyone's ever seen (Dave laughs) with a 15 to $20 billion valuation coming out, which is more than Teradata, Margo and Cloudera combined. It's a great question. So obviously the success to this point is warranted, but we need to see what they're going to be able to do next. So I think the agenda you laid out is a great one and I'm looking forward to getting into some of those details. >> So let's start with what's happening in the marketplace and let's pull up a slide that I very much love to use. It's the classic X-Y. On the vertical axis here we show net score. And remember folks, net score is an indicator of spending momentum. ETR every quarter does like a clockwork survey where they're asking people, "Essentially are you spending more or less?" They subtract the less from the more and comes up with a net score. It's more complicated than, but like NPS, it's a very simple and reliable methodology. That's the vertical axis. And the horizontal axis is what's called market share. Market share is the pervasiveness within the data set. So it's calculated by the number of mentions of the vendor divided by the number of mentions within that sector. And what we're showing here is the EDW sector. And we've pulled out a few companies that I want to talk about. So the big three, obviously Microsoft, AWS and Google. And you can see Microsoft has a huge presence far to the right. AWS, very, very strong. A lot of Redshift in there. And then they're pretty high on the vertical axis. And then Google, not as much share, but very solid in that. Close to 60% net score. And then you can see above all of them from a vertical standpoint is Snowflake with a 77.5% net score. You can see them in the upper right there in the green. One of the highest Erik in the entire data set. So, let's start with some sort of initial comments on the big guys and Snowflakes. Your thoughts? >> Sure. Just first of all to comment on the data, what we're showing there is just the data warehousing sector, but Snowflake's actual net score is that high amongst the entire universe that we follow. Their data strength is unprecedented and we have forward-looking spending intention. So this bodes very well for them. Now, what you did say very accurately is there's a difference between their spending intentions on a net revenue level compared to AWS, Microsoft. There no one's saying that this is an apples-to-apples comparison when it comes to actual revenue. So we have to be very cognizant of that. There is domination (laughs) quite frankly from AWS and from Azure. And Snowflake is a necessary component for them not only to help facilitate a multi-cloud, but look what's happening right now in the US Congress, right? We have these tech leaders being grilled on their actual dominance. And one of the main concerns they have is the amount of data that they're collecting. So I think the environment is right to have another player like this. I think Snowflake really has a lot of longevity and our data is supporting that. And the commentary that we hear from our end users, the people that take the survey are supporting that as well. >> Okay, and then let's stay on this X-Y slide for a moment. I want to just pull out a couple of other comments here, because one of the questions we're asking is Whither, the legacy EDW players. So we've got in here, IBM, Oracle, you can see Teradata and then Hortonworks and MapR. We're going to talk a little bit about Hortonworks 'cause it's now Cloudera. We're going to talk a little bit about Hadoop and some of the data lakes. So you can see there they don't have nearly the net score momentum. Oracle obviously has a huge install base and is investing quite frankly in R&D and do an Exadata and it has its own cloud. So, it's got a lock on it's customers and if it keeps investing and adding value, it's not going away. IBM with Netezza, there's really been some questions around their commitment to that base. And I know that a lot of the folks in the VENNs that we've talked to Erik have said, "Well, we're replacing Netezza." Frank Slootman has been very vocal about going after Teradata. And then we're going to talk a little bit about the Hadoop space. But, can you summarize for us your thoughts in your research and the commentary from your community, what's going on with the legacy guys? Are these guys cooked? Can they hang on? What's your take? >> Sure. We focus on this quite a bit actually. So, I'm going to talk about it from the data perspective first, and then we'll go into some of the commentary and the panel. You even joined one yesterday. You know that it was touched upon. But, first on the data side, what we're noticing and capturing is a widening bifurcation between these cloud native and the legacy on-prem. It is undeniable. There is nothing that you can really refute. The data is concrete and it is getting worse. That gap is getting wider and wider and wider. Now, the one thing I will say is, nobody's going to rip out their legacy applications tomorrow. It takes years and years. So when you look at Teradata, right? Their market cap's only 2 billion, 2.3 billion. How much revenue growth do they need to stay where they are? Not much, right? No one's expecting them to grow 20%, which is what you're seeing on the left side of that screen. So when you look at the legacy versus the cloud native, there is very clear direction of what's happening. The one thing I would note from the data perspective is if you switched from net score or adoptions and you went to flat spending, you suddenly see Oracle and Teradata move over to that left a little bit, because again what I'm trying to say is I don't think they're going to catch up. No, but also don't think they're going away tomorrow. That these have large install bases, they have relationships. Now to kind of get into what you were saying about each particular one, IBM, they shut down Netezza. They shut it down and then they brought it back to life. How does that make you feel if you're the head of data architecture or you're DevOps and you're trying to build an application for a large company? I'm not going back to that. There's absolutely no way. Teradata on the other hand is known to be incredibly stable. They are known to just not fail. If you need to kind of re-architect or you do a migration, they work. Teradata also has a lot of compliance built in. So if you're a financials, if you have a regulated business or industry, there's still some data sets that you're not going to move up to the cloud. Whether it's a PII compliance or financial reasons, some of that stuff is still going to live on-prem. So Teradata is still has a very good niche. And from what we're hearing from our panels, then this is a direct quote if you don't mind me looking off screen for one second. But this is a great one. Basically said, "Teradata is the only one from the legacy camp who is putting up a fight and not giving up." Basically from a CIO perspective, the rest of them aren't an option anymore. But Teradata is still fighting and that's great to hear. They have their own data as a service offering and listen, they're a small market cap compared to these other companies we're talking about. But, to summarize, the data is very clear. There is a widening bifurcation between the two camps. I do not think legacy will catch up. I think all net new workloads are moving to data as a service, moving to cloud native, moving to hosted, but there are still going to be some existing legacy on-prem applications that will be supported with these older databases. And of those, Oracle and Teradata are still viable options. >> I totally agree with you and my colleague David Floyd is actually quite high on Teradata Vantage because he really does believe that a key component, we're going to talk about the TAM in a minute, but a key component of the TAM he believes must include the on-premises workloads. And Frank Slootman has been very clear, "We're not doing on-prem, we're not doing this halfway house." And so that's an opportunity for companies like Teradata, certainly Oracle I would put it in that camp is putting up a fight. Vertica is another one. They're very small, but another one that's sort of battling it out from the old NPP world. But that's great. Let's go into some of the specifics. Let's bring up here some of the specific commentary that we've curated here from the roundtables. I'm going to go through these and then ask you to comment. The first one is just, I mean, people are obviously very excited about Snowflake. It's easy to use, the whole thing zero to Snowflake in 90 minutes, but Snowflake is synonymous with cloud-native data warehousing. There are no equals. We heard that a lot from your VENN panelist. >> We certainly did. There was even more euphoria around Snowflake than I expected when we started hosting these series of data warehousing panels. And this particular gentleman that said that happens to be the global head of data architecture for a fortune 100 financials company. And you mentioned earlier that we did a report alongside Eagle Alpha. And we noticed that among fortune 100 companies that are also using the big three public cloud companies, Snowflake is growing market share faster than anyone else. They are positioned in a way where even if you're aligned with Azure, even if you're aligned with AWS, if you're a large company, they are gaining share right now. So that particular gentleman's comments was very interesting. He also made a comment that said, "Snowflake is the person who championed the idea that data warehousing is not dead yet. Use that old monthly Python line and you're not dead yet." And back in the day where the Hadoop came along and the data lakes turned into a data swamp and everyone said, "We don't need warehousing anymore." Well, that turned out to be a head fake, right? Hadoop was an interesting technology, but it's a complex technology. And it ended up not really working the way people want it. I think Snowflake came in at that point at an opportune time and said, "No, data warehousing isn't dead. We just have to separate the compute from the storage layer and look at what I can do. That increases flexibility, security. It gives you that ability to run across multi-cloud." So honestly the commentary has been nothing but positive. We can get into some of the commentary about people thinking that there's competition catching up to what they do, but there is no doubt that right now Snowflake is the name when it comes to data as a service. >> The other thing we heard a lot was ETL is going to get completely disrupted, you sort of embedded ETL. You heard one panelist say, "Well, it's interesting to see that guys like Informatica are talking about how fast they can run inside a Snowflake." But Snowflake is making that easy. That data prep is sort of part of the package. And so that does not bode well for ETL vendors. >> It does not, right? So ETL is a legacy of on-prem databases and even when Hadoop came along, it still needed that extra layer to kind of work with the data. But this is really, really disrupting them. Now the Snowflake's credit, they partner well. All the ETL players are partnered with Snowflake, they're trying to play nice with them, but the writings on the wall as more and more of this application and workloads move to the cloud, you don't need the ETL layer. Now, obviously that's going to affect their talent and Informatica the most. We had a recent comment that said, this was a CIO who basically said, "The most telling thing about the ETL players right now is every time you speak to them, all they talk about is how they work in a Snowflake architecture." That's their only metric that they talk about right now. And he said, "That's very telling." That he basically used it as it's their existential identity to be part of Snowflake. If they're not, they don't exist anymore. So it was interesting to have sort of a philosophical comment brought up in one of my roundtables. But that's how important playing nice and finding a niche within this new data as a service is for ETL, but to be quite honest, they might be going the same way of, "Okay, let's figure out our niche on these still the on-prem workloads that are still there." I think over time we might see them maybe as an M&A possibility, whether it's Snowflake or one of these new up and comers, kind of bring them in and sort of take some of the technology that's useful and layer it in. But as a large market cap, solo existing niche, I just don't know how long ETL is for this world. >> Now, yeah. I mean, you're right that if it wasn't for the marketing, they're not fighting fashion. But >> No. >> really there're some challenges there. Now, there were some contrarians in the panel and they signaled some potential icebergs ahead. And I guarantee you're going to see this in Snowflake's Red Herring when we actually get it. Like we're going to see all the risks. One of the comments, I'll mention the two and then we can talk about it. "Their engineering advantage will fade over time." Essentially we're saying that people are going to copycat and we've seen that. And the other point is, "Hey, we might see some similar things that happened to Hadoop." The public cloud players giving away these offerings at zero cost. Essentially marginal cost of adding another service is near zero. So the cloud players will use their heft to compete. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, first of all one of the reasons I love doing panels, right? Because we had three gentlemen on this panel that all had nothing but wonderful things to say. But you always get one. And this particular person is a CTO of a well known online public travel agency. We'll put it that way. And he said, "I'm going to be the contrarian here. I have seven different technologies from private companies that do the same thing that I'm evaluating." So that's the pressure from behind, right? The technology, they're going to catch up. Right now Snowflake has the best engineering which interestingly enough they took a lot of that engineering from IBM and Teradata if you actually go back and look at it, which was brought up in our panel as well. He said, "However, the engineering will catch up. They always do." Now from the other side they're getting squeezed because the big cloud players just say, "Hey, we can do this too. I can bundle it with all the other services I'm giving you and I can squeeze your pay. Pretty much give it a waive at the cost." So I do think that there is a very valid concern. When you come out with a $20 billion IPO evaluation, you need to warrant that. And when you see competitive pressures from both sides, from private emerging technologies and from the more dominant public cloud players, you're going to get squeezed there a little bit. And if pricing gets squeezed, it's going to be very, very important for Snowflake to continue to innovate. That comment you brought up about possibly being the next Cloudera was certainly the best sound bite that I got. And I'm going to use it as Clickbait in future articles, because I think everyone who starts looking to buy a Snowflake stock and they see that, they're going to need to take a look. But I would take that with a grain of salt. I don't think that's happening anytime soon, but what that particular CTO was referring to was if you don't innovate, the technology itself will become commoditized. And he believes that this technology will become commoditized. So therefore Snowflake has to continue to innovate. They have to find other layers to bring in. Whether that's through their massive war chest of cash they're about to have and M&A, whether that's them buying analytics company, whether that's them buying an ETL layer, finding a way to provide more value as they move forward is going to be very important for them to justify this valuation going forward. >> And I want to comment on that. The Cloudera, Hortonworks, MapRs, Hadoop, et cetera. I mean, there are dramatic differences obviously. I mean, that whole space was so hard, very difficult to stand up. You needed science project guys and lab coats to do it. It was very services intensive. As well companies like Cloudera had to fund all these open source projects and it really squeezed their R&D. I think Snowflake is much more focused and you mentioned some of the background of their engineers, of course Oracle guys as well. However, you will see Amazon's going to trot out a ton of customers using their RA3 managed storage and their flash. I think it's the DC two piece. They have a ton of action in the marketplace because it's just so easy. It's interesting one of the comments, you asked this yesterday, was with regard to separating compute from storage, which of course it's Snowflakes they basically invented it, it was one of their climbs to fame. The comment was what AWS has done to separate compute from storage for Redshift is largely a bolt on. Which I thought that was an interesting comment. I've had some other comments. My friend George Gilbert said, "Hey, despite claims to the contrary, AWS still hasn't separated storage from compute. What they have is really primitive." We got to dig into that some more, but you're seeing some data points that suggest there's copycatting going on. May not be as functional, but at the same time, Erik, like I was saying good enough is maybe good enough in this space. >> Yeah, and especially with the enterprise, right? You see what Microsoft has done. Their technology is not as good as all the niche players, but it's good enough and I already have a Microsoft license. So, (laughs) you know why am I going to move off of it. But I want to get back to the comment you mentioned too about that particular gentleman who made that comment about RedShift, their separation is really more of a bolt on than a true offering. It's interesting because I know who these people are behind the scenes and he has a very strong relationship with AWS. So it was interesting to me that in the panel yesterday he said he switched from Redshift to Snowflake because of that and some other functionality issues. So there is no doubt from the end users that are buying this. And he's again a fortune 100 financial organization. Not the same one we mentioned. That's a different one. But again, a fortune 100 well known financials organization. He switched from AWS to Snowflake. So there is no doubt that right now they have the technological lead. And when you look at our ETR data platform, we have that adoption reasoning slide that you show. When you look at the number one reason that people are adopting Snowflake is their feature set of technological lead. They have that lead now. They have to maintain it. Now, another thing to bring up on this to think about is when you have large data sets like this, and as we're moving forward, you need to have machine learning capabilities layered into it, right? So they need to make sure that they're playing nicely with that. And now you could go open source with the Apache suite, but Google is doing so well with BigQuery and so well with their machine learning aspects. And although they don't speak enterprise well, they don't sell to the enterprise well, that's changing. I think they're somebody to really keep an eye on because their machine learning capabilities that are layered into the BigQuery are impressive. Now, of course, Microsoft Azure has Databricks. They're layering that in, but this is an area where I think you're going to see maybe what's next. You have to have machine learning capabilities out of the box if you're going to do data as a service. Right now Snowflake doesn't really have that. Some of the other ones do. So I had one of my guest panelist basically say to me, because of that, they ended up going with Google BigQuery because he was able to run a machine learning algorithm within hours of getting set up. Within hours. And he said that that kind of capability out of the box is what people are going to have to use going forward. So that's another thing we should dive into a little bit more. >> Let's get into that right now. Let's bring up the next slide which shows net score. Remember this is spending momentum across the major cloud players and plus Snowflake. So you've got Snowflake on the left, Google, AWS and Microsoft. And it's showing three survey timeframes last October, April 20, which is right in the middle of the pandemic. And then the most recent survey which has just taken place this month in July. And you can see Snowflake very, very high scores. Actually improving from the last October survey. Google, lower net scores, but still very strong. Want to come back to that and pick up on your comments. AWS dipping a little bit. I think what's happening here, we saw this yesterday with AWS's results. 30% growth. Awesome. Slight miss on the revenue side for AWS, but look, I mean massive. And they're so exposed to so many industries. So some of their industries have been pretty hard hit. Microsoft pretty interesting. A little softness there. But one of the things I wanted to pick up on Erik, when you're talking about Google and BigQuery and it's ML out of the box was what we heard from a lot of the VENN participants. There's no question about it that Google technically I would say is one of Snowflake's biggest competitors because it's cloud native. Remember >> Yep. >> AWS did a license one time. License deal with PowerShell and had a sort of refactor the thing to be cloud native. And of course we know what's happening with Microsoft. They basically were on-prem and then they put stuff in the cloud and then all the updates happen in the cloud. And then they pushed to on-prem. But they have that what Frank Slootman calls that halfway house, but BigQuery no question technically is very, very solid. But again, you see Snowflake right now anyway outpacing these guys in terms of momentum. >> Snowflake is out outpacing everyone (laughs) across our entire survey universe. It really is impressive to see. And one of the things that they have going for them is they can connect all three. It's that multi-cloud ability, right? That portability that they bring to you is such an important piece for today's modern CIO as data architects. They don't want vendor lock-in. They are afraid of vendor lock-in. And this ability to make their data portable and to do that with ease and the flexibility that they offer is a huge advantage right now. However, I think you're a hundred percent right. Google has been so focused on the engineering side and never really focusing on the enterprise sales side. That is why they're playing catch up. I think they can catch up. They're bringing in some really important enterprise salespeople with experience. They're starting to learn how to talk to enterprise, how to sell, how to support. And nobody can really doubt their engineering. How many open sources have they given us, right? They invented Kubernetes and the entire container space. No one's really going to compete with them on that side if they learn how to sell it and support it. Yeah, right now they're behind. They're a distant third. Don't get me wrong. From a pure hosted ability, AWS is number one. Microsoft is yours. Sometimes it looks like it's number one, but you have to recognize that a lot of that is because of simply they're hosted 365. It's a SAS app. It's not a true cloud type of infrastructure as a service. But Google is a distant third, but their technology is really, really great. And their ability to catch up is there. And like you said, in the panels we were hearing a lot about their machine learning capability is right out of the box. And that's where this is going. What's the point of having this huge data if you're not going to be supporting it on new application architecture. And all of those applications require machine learning. >> Awesome. So we're. And I totally agree with what you're saying about Google. They just don't have it figured out how to sell the enterprise yet. And a hundred percent AWS has the best cloud. I mean, hands down. But a very, very competitive market as we heard yesterday in front of Congress. Now we're on the point about, can Snowflake compete with the big cloud players? I want to show one more data point. So let's bring up, this is the same chart as we showed before, but it's new adoptions. And this is really telling. >> Yeah. >> You can see Snowflake with 34% in the yellow, new adoptions, down yes from previous surveys, but still significantly higher than the other players. Interesting to see Google showing momentum on new adoptions, AWS down on new adoptions. And again, exposed to a lot of industries that have been hard hit. And Microsoft actually quite low on new adoption. So this is very impressive for Snowflake. And I want to talk about the multi-cloud strategy now Erik. This came up a lot. The VENN participants who are sort of fans of Snowflake said three things: It was really the flexibility, the security which is really interesting to me. And a lot of that had to do with the flexibility. The ability to easily set up roles and not have to waste a lot of time wrangling. And then the third was multi-cloud. And that was really something that came through heavily in the VENN. Didn't it? >> It really did. And again, I think it just comes down to, I don't think you can ever overstate how afraid these guys are of vendor lock-in. They can't have it. They don't want it. And it's best practice to make sure your sensitive information is being kind of spread out a little bit. We all know that people don't trust Bezos. So if you're in certain industries, you're not going to use AWS at all, right? So yeah, this ability to have your data portability through multi-cloud is the number one reason I think people start looking at Snowflake. And to go to your point about the adoptions, it's very telling and it bodes well for them going forward. Most of the things that we're seeing right now are net new workloads. So let's go again back to the legacy side that we were talking about, the Teradatas, IBMs, Oracles. They still have the monolithic applications and the data that needs to support that, right? Like an old ERP type of thing. But anyone who's now building a new application, bringing something new to market, it's all net new workloads. There is no net new workload that is going to go to SAP or IBM. It's not going to happen. The net new workloads are going to the cloud. And that's why when you switch from net score to adoption, you see Snowflake really stand out because this is about new adoption for net new workloads. And that's really where they're driving everything. So I would just say that as this continues, as data as a service continues, I think Snowflake's only going to gain more and more share for all the reasons you stated. Now get back to your comment about security. I was shocked by that. I really was. I did not expect these guys to say, "Oh, no. Snowflake enterprise security not a concern." So two panels ago, a gentleman from a fortune 100 financials said, "Listen, it's very difficult to get us to sign off on something for security. Snowflake is past it, it is enterprise ready, and we are going full steam ahead." Once they got that go ahead, there was no turning back. We gave it to our DevOps guys, we gave it to everyone and said, "Run with it." So, when a company that's big, I believe their fortune rank is 28. (laughs) So when a company that big says, "Yeah, you've got the green light. That we were okay with the internal compliance aspect, we're okay with the security aspect, this gives us multi-cloud portability, this gives us flexibility, ease of use." Honestly there's a really long runway ahead for Snowflake. >> Yeah, so the big question I have around the multi-cloud piece and I totally and I've been on record saying, "Look, if you're going looking for an agnostic multi-cloud, you're probably not going to go with the cloud vendor." (laughs) But I've also said that I think multi-cloud to date anyway has largely been a symptom as opposed to a strategy, but that's changing. But to your point about lock-in and also I think people are maybe looking at doing things across clouds, but I think that certainly it expands Snowflake's TAM and we're going to talk about that because they support multiple clouds and they're going to be the best at that. That's a mandate for them. The question I have is how much of complex joining are you going to be doing across clouds? And is that something that is just going to be too latency intensive? Is that really Snowflake's expertise? You're really trying to build that data layer. You're probably going to maybe use some kind of Postgres database for that. >> Right. >> I don't know. I need to dig into that, but that would be an opportunity from a TAM standpoint. I just don't know how real that is. >> Yeah, unfortunately I'm going to just be honest with this one. I don't think I have great expertise there and I wouldn't want to lead anyone a wrong direction. But from what I've heard from some of my VENN interview subjects, this is happening. So the data portability needs to be agnostic to the cloud. I do think that when you're saying, are there going to be real complex kind of workloads and applications? Yes, the answer is yes. And I think a lot of that has to do with some of the container architecture as well, right? If I can just pull data from one spot, spin it up for as long as I need and then just get rid of that container, that ethereal layer of compute. It doesn't matter where the cloud lies. It really doesn't. I do think that multi-cloud is the way of the future. I know that the container workloads right now in the enterprise are still very small. I've heard people say like, "Yeah, I'm kicking the tires. We got 5%." That's going to grow. And if Snowflake can make themselves an integral part of that, then yes. I think that's one of those things where, I remember the guy said, "Snowflake has to continue to innovate. They have to find a way to grow this TAM." This is an area where they can do so. I think you're right about that, but as far as my expertise, on this one I'm going to be honest with you and say, I don't want to answer incorrectly. So you and I need to dig in a little bit on this one. >> Yeah, as it relates to question four, what's the viability of Snowflake's multi-cloud strategy? I'll say unquestionably supporting multiple clouds, very viable. Whether or not portability across clouds, multi-cloud joins, et cetera, TBD. So we'll keep digging into that. The last thing I want to focus on here is the last question, does Snowflake's TAM justify its $20 billion valuation? And you think about the data pipeline. You go from data acquisition to data prep. I mean, that really is where Snowflake shines. And then of course there's analysis. You've got to bring in EMI or AI and ML tools. That's not Snowflake's strength. And then you're obviously preparing that, serving that up to the business, visualization. So there's potential adjacencies that they could get into that they may or may not decide to. But so we put together this next chart which is kind of the TAM expansion opportunity. And I just want to briefly go through it. We published this stuff so you can go and look at all the fine print, but it's kind of starts with the data lake disruption. You called it data swamp before. The Hadoop no schema on, right? Basically the ROI of Hadoop became reduction of investment as my friend Abby Meadow would say. But so they're kind of disrupting that data lake which really was a failure. And then really going after that enterprise data warehouse which is kind of I have it here as a 10 billion. It's actually bigger than that. It's probably more like a $20 billion market. I'll update this slide. And then really what Snowflake is trying to do is be data as a service. A data layer across data stores, across clouds, really make it easy to ingest and prepare data and then serve the business with insights. And then ultimately this huge TAM around automated decision making, real-time analytics, automated business processes. I mean, that is potentially an enormous market. We got a couple of hundred billion. I mean, just huge. Your thoughts on their TAM? >> I agree. I'm not worried about their TAM and one of the reasons why as I mentioned before, they are coming out with a whole lot of cash. (laughs) This is going to be a red hot IPO. They are going to have a lot of money to spend. And look at their management team. Who is leading the way? A very successful, wise, intelligent, acquisitive type of CEO. I think there is going to be M&A activity, and I believe that M&A activity is going to be 100% for the mindset of growing their TAM. The entire world is moving to data as a service. So let's take as a backdrop. I'm going to go back to the panel we did yesterday. The first question we asked was, there was an understanding or a theory that when the virus pandemic hit, people wouldn't be taking on any sort of net new architecture. They're like, "Okay, I have Teradata, I have IBM. Let's just make sure the lights are on. Let's stick with it." Every single person I've asked, they're just now eight different experts, said to us, "Oh, no. Oh, no, no." There is the virus pandemic, the shift from work from home. Everything we're seeing right now has only accelerated and advanced our data as a service strategy in the cloud. We are building for scale, adopting cloud for data initiatives. So, across the board they have a great backdrop. So that's going to only continue, right? This is very new. We're in the early innings of this. So for their TAM, that's great because that's the core of what they do. Now on top of it you mentioned the type of things about, yeah, right now they don't have great machine learning. That could easily be acquired and built in. Right now they don't have an analytics layer. I for one would love to see these guys talk to Alteryx. Alteryx is red hot. We're seeing great data and great feedback on them. If they could do that business intelligence, that analytics layer on top of it, the entire suite as a service, I mean, come on. (laughs) Their TAM is expanding in my opinion. >> Yeah, your point about their leadership is right on. And I interviewed Frank Slootman right in the heart of the pandemic >> So impressed. >> and he said, "I'm investing in engineering almost sight unseen. More circumspect around sales." But I will caution people. That a lot of people I think see what Slootman did with ServiceNow. And he came into ServiceNow. I have to tell you. It was they didn't have their unit economics right, they didn't have their sales model and marketing model. He cleaned that up. Took it from 120 million to 1.2 billion and really did an amazing job. People are looking for a repeat here. This is a totally different situation. ServiceNow drove a truck through BMCs install base and with IT help desk and then created this brilliant TAM expansion. Let's learn and expand model. This is much different here. And Slootman also told me that he's a situational CEO. He doesn't have a playbook. And so that's what is most impressive and interesting about this. He's now up against the biggest competitors in the world: AWS, Google and Microsoft and dozens of other smaller startups that have raised a lot of money. Look at the company like Yellowbrick. They've raised I don't know $180 million. They've got a great team. Google, IBM, et cetera. So it's going to be really, really fun to watch. I'm super excited, Erik, but I'll tell you the data right now suggest they've got a great tailwind and if they can continue to execute, this is going to be really fun to watch. >> Yeah, certainly. I mean, when you come out and you are as impressive as Snowflake is, you get a target on your back. There's no doubt about it, right? So we said that they basically created the data as a service. That's going to invite competition. There's no doubt about it. And Yellowbrick is one that came up in the panel yesterday about one of our CIOs were doing a proof of concept with them. We had about seven others mentioned as well that are startups that are in this space. However, none of them despite their great valuation and their great funding are going to have the kind of money and the market lead that Slootman is going to have which Snowflake has as this comes out. And what we're seeing in Congress right now with some antitrust scrutiny around the large data that's being collected by AWS as your Google, I'm not going to bet against this guy either. Right now I think he's got a lot of opportunity, there's a lot of additional layers and because he can basically develop this as a suite service, I think there's a lot of great opportunity ahead for this company. >> Yeah, and I guarantee that he understands well that customer acquisition cost and the lifetime value of the customer, the retention rates. Those are all things that he and Mike Scarpelli, his CFO learned at ServiceNow. Not learned, perfected. (Erik laughs) Well Erik, really great conversation, awesome data. It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much, my friend. I really appreciate it. >> I appreciate talking to you too. We'll do it again soon. And stay safe everyone out there. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody this episode of "CUBE Insights" powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> As you may recall, coming into the second part of 2019 we reported, based on ETR Survey data, that there was a narrowing of spending on emerging tech and an unplugging of a lot of legacy systems. This was really because people were going from experimentation into operationalizing their digital initiatives. When COVID hit, conventional wisdom suggested that there would be a flight to safety. Now, interestingly, we reported with Eric Bradley, based on one of the Venns, that a lot of CIOs were still experimenting with emerging vendors. But this was very anecdotal. Today, we have more data, fresh data, from the ETR Emerging Technology Study on private companies, which really does suggest that there's a notable decline in experimentation, and that's affecting emerging technology vendors. Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Once again, Sagar Kadakia is joining us. Sagar is the Director of Research at ETR. Sagar, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you again. Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So, it's really important to point out, this Emerging Tech Study that you guys do, it's different from your quarterly Technology Spending Intention Survey. Take us through the methodology. Guys, maybe you could bring up the first chart. And, Sagar, walk us through how you guys approach this. >> No problem. So, a lot of the viewers are used to seeing a lot of the results from the Technology Spending Intention Survey, or the TSIS, as we call it. That study, as the title says, it really tracks spending intentions on more pervasive vendors, right, Microsoft, AWS, as an example. What we're going to look at today is our Emerging Technology Study, which we conduct biannually, in May and November. This study is a little bit different. We ask CIOs around evaluations, awareness, planned evaluations, so think of this as pre-spend, right. So that's a major differentiator from the TSIS. That, and this study, really focuses on private emerging providers. We're really only focused on those really emerging private companies, say, like your Series B to Series G or H, whatever it may be, so, two big differences within those studies. And then today what we're really going to look at is the results from the Emerging Technology Study. Just a couple of quick things here. We had 811 CIOs participate, which represents about 380 billion in annual IT spend, so the results from this study matter. We had almost 75 Fortune 100s take it. So, again, we're really measuring how private emerging providers are doing in the largest organizations. And so today we're going to be reviewing notable sectors, but largely this survey tracks roughly 356 private technologies and frameworks. >> All right, guys, bring up the pie chart, the next slide. Now, Sagar, this is sort of a snapshot here, and it basically says that 44% of CIOs agree that COVID has decreased the organization's evaluation and utilization of emerging tech, despite what I mentioned, Eric Bradley's Venn, which suggested one CIO in particular said, "Hey, I always pick somebody in the lower left "of the magic quadrant." But, again, this is a static view. I know we have some other data, but take us through this, and how this compares to other surveys that you've done. >> No problem. So let's start with the high level takeaways. And I'll actually kind of get into to the point that Eric was debating, 'cause that point is true. It's just really how you kind of slice and dice the data to get to that. So, what you're looking at here, and what the overall takeaway from the Emerging Technology Study was, is, you know, you are going to see notable declines in POCs, of proof-of-concepts, any valuations because of COVID-19. Even though we had been communicating for quite some time, you know, the last few months, that there's increasing pressure for companies to further digitize with COVID-19, there are IT budget constraints. There is a huge pivot in IT resources towards supporting remote employees, a decrease in risk tolerance, and so that's why what you're seeing here is a rather notable number of CIOs, 44%, that said that they are decreasing their organization's evaluation and utilization of private emerging providers. So that is notable. >> Now, as you pointed out, you guys run this survey a couple of times a year. So now let's look at the time series. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. We can see how the sentiment has changed since last year. And, of course, we're isolating here on some of larger companies. So, take us through what this data means. >> No problem. So, how do we quantify what we just saw in the prior slide? We saw 44% of CIOs indicating that they are going to be decreasing their evaluations. But what exactly does that mean? We can pretty much determine that by looking at a lot of the data that we captured through our Emerging Technology Study. There's a lot going on in this slide, but I'll walk you through it. What you're looking at here is Fortune 1000 organizations, so we've really isolated the data to those organizations that matter. So, let's start with the teal, kind of green line first, because I think it's a little bit easier to understand. What you're looking at, Fortune 1000 evaluations, both planned and current, okay? And you're looking at a time series, one year ago and six months ago. So, two of the answer options that we provide CIOs in this survey, right, think about the survey as a grid, where you have seven answer options going horizontally, and then 300-plus vendors and technologies going vertically. For any given vendor, they can essentially indicate one of these options, two of them being on currently evaluating them or I plan to evaluate them in six months. So what you're looking at here is effectively the aggregate number, or the average number of Fortune 1000 evaluations. So if you look into May 2019, all the way on the left of that chart, that 24% roughly means that a quarter of selections made by Fortune 1000 of the survey, they selected plan to evaluate or currently evaluating. If you fast-forward six months, to the middle of the chart, November '19, it's roughly the same, one in four technologies that are Fortune 1000 selected, they indicated that I plan or am currently evaluating them. But now look at that big drop off going into May 2020, the 17%, right? So now one out of every six technologies, or one out of every selections that they made was an evaluation. So a very notable drop. And then if you look at the blue line, this is another answer option that we provided CIOs: I'm aware of the technology but I have no plans to evaluate. So this answer option essentially tracks awareness levels. If you look at the last six months, look at that big uptick from 44% to over 50%, right? So now, essentially one out of every two technologies, or private technologies that a CIO is aware of, they have no plans to evaluate. So this is going to have an impact on the general landscape, when we think about those private emerging providers. But there is one caveat, and, Dave, this is what you mentioned earlier, this is what Eric was talking about. The providers that are doing well are the ones that are work-from-home aligned. And so, just like a few years ago, we were really analyzing results based on are you cloud-native or are you Cloud-aligned, because those technologies are going to do the best, what we're seeing in the emerging space is now the same thing. Those emerging providers that enable organizations to maintain productivity for their employees, essentially allowing their employees to work remotely, those emerging providers are still doing well. And that is probably the second biggest takeaway from this study. >> So now what we're seeing here is this flight to perceive safety, which, to your point, Sagar, doesn't necessarily mean good news for all enterprise tech vendors, but certainly for those that are positioned for the work-from-home pivot. So now let's take a look at a couple of sectors. We'll start with information security. We've reported for years about how the perimeter's been broken down, and that more spend was going to shift from inside the moat to a distributed network, and that's clearly what's happened as a result of COVID. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. Sagar, you take us through this. >> No problem. And as you imagine, I think that the big theme here is zero trust. So, a couple of things here. And let me just explain this chart a little bit, because we're going to be going through a couple of these. What you're seeing on the X-axis here, is this is effectively what we're classifying as near term growth opportunity from all customers. The way we measure that effectively is we look at all the evaluations, current evaluations, planned evaluations, we look at people who are evaluated and plan to utilize these vendors. The more indications you get on that the more to the top right you're going to be. The more indications you get around I'm aware of but I don't plan to evaluate, or I'm replacing this early-stage vendor, the further down and on the left you're going to be. So, on the X-axis you have near term growth opportunity from all customers, and on the Y-axis you have near term growth opportunity from, really, the biggest shops in the world, your Global 2000, your Forbes Private 225, like Cargill, as an example, and then, of course, your federal agencies. So you really want to be positioned up and to the right here. So, the big takeaway here is zero trust. So, just a couple of things on this slide when we think about zero trust. As organizations accelerate their Cloud and Saas spend because of COVID-19, and, you know, what we were talking about earlier, Dave, remote work becomes the new normal, that perimeter security approach is losing appeal, because the perimeter's less defined, right? Apps and data are increasingly being stored in the Cloud. That, and employees are working remotely from everywhere, and they're accessing all of these items. And so what we're seeing now is a big move into zero trust. So, if we look at that chart again, what you're going to see in that upper right quadrant are a lot of identity and access management players. And look at the bifurcation in general. This is what we were talking about earlier in terms of the landscape not doing well. Most security vendors are in that red area, you know, in the middle to the bottom. But if you look at the top right, what are you seeing here? Unify ID, Auth0, WSO2, right, all identity and access management players. These are critical in your zero trust approach, and this is one of the few area where we are seeing upticks. You also see here BitSight, Lucideus. So that's going to be security assessment. You're seeing VECTRA and Netskope and Darktrace, and a few others here. And Cloud Security and IDPS, Intrusion Detection and Prevention System. So, very few sectors are seeing an uptick, very few security sectors actually look pretty good, based on opportunities that are coming. But, essentially, all of them are in that work-from-home aligned security stack, so to speak. >> Right, and of course, as we know, as we've been reporting, buyers have options, from both established companies and these emerging companies that are public, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler. We've seen the work-from-home pivot benefit those guys, but even Palo Alto Networks, even CISCO, I asked (other speaker drowns out speech) last week, I said, "Hey, what about this pivot to work from home? "What about this zero trust?" And he said, "Look, the reality is, yes, "a big part of our portfolio is exposed "to that traditional infrastructure, "but we have options for zero trust as well." So, from a buyer's standpoint, that perceived flight to safety, you have a lot of established vendors, and that clearly is showing up in your data. Now, the other sector that we want to talk about is database. We've been reporting a lot on database, data warehouse. So, why don't you take us through the next graphic here, if you would. >> Sagar: No problem. So, our theme here is that Snowflake is really separating itself from the pack, and, again, you can see that here. Private database and data warehousing vendors really continue to impact a lot of their public peers, and Snowflake is leading the way. We expect Snowflake to gain momentum in the next few years. And, look, there's some rumors that IPOing soon. And so when we think about that set-up, we like it, because as organizations transition away from hybrid Cloud architectures to 100% or near-100% public Cloud, Snowflake is really going to benefit. So they look good, their data stacks look pretty good, right, that's resiliency, redundancy across data centers. So we kind of like them as well. Redis Labs bring a DB and they look pretty good here on the opportunity side, but we are seeing a little bit of churn, so I think probably Snowflake and DataStax are probably our two favorites here. And again, when you think about Snowflake, we continue to think more pervasive vendors, like Paradata and Cloudera, and some of the other larger database firms, they're going to continue seeing wallet and market share losses due to some of these emerging providers. >> Yeah. If you could just keep that slide up for a second, I would point out, in many ways Snowflake is kind of a safer bet, you know, we talk about flight to safety, because they're well-funded, they're established. You can go from zero to Snowflake very quickly, that's sort of their mantra, if you will. But I want to point out and recognize that it is somewhat oranges and tangerines here, Snowflake being an analytical database. You take MariaDB, for instance, I look at that, anyway, as relational and operational. And then you mentioned DataStax. I would say Couchbase, Redis Labs, Aerospike. Cockroach is really a... EValue Store. You've got some non-relational databases in there. But we're looking at the entire sector of databases, which has become a really interesting market. But again, some of those established players are going to do very well, and I would put Snowflake on that cusp. As you pointed out, Bloomberg broke the story, I think last week, that they were contemplating an IPO, which we've known for a while. >> Yeah. And just one last thing on that. We do like some of the more pervasive players, right. Obviously, AWS, all their products, Redshift and DynamoDB. Microsoft looks really good. It's just really some of the other legacy ones, like the Teradatas, the Oracles, the Hadoops, right, that we are going to be impacted. And so the claw providers look really good. >> So, the last decade has really brought forth this whole notion of DevOps, infrastructure as code, the whole API economy. And that's the piece we want to jump into now. And there are some real stand-outs here, you know, despite the early data that we showed you, where CIOs are less prone to look at emerging vendors. There are some, for instance, if you bring up the next chart, guys, like Hashi, that really are standing out, aren't they? >> That's right, Dave. So, again, what you're seeing here is you're seeing that bifurcation that we were talking about earlier. There are a lot of infrastructure software vendors that are not positioned well, but if you look at the ones at the top right that are positioned well... We have two kind of things on here, starting with infrastructure automation. We think a winner here is emerging with Terraform. Look all the way up to the right, how well-positioned they are, how many opportunities they're getting. And for the second straight survey now, Terraform is leading along their peers, Chef, Puppet, SaltStack. And they're leading their peers in so many different categories, notably on allocating more spend, which is obviously very important. For Chef, Puppet and SaltStack, which you can see a little bit below, probably a little bit higher than the middle, we are seeing some elevator churn levels. And so, really, Terraform looks like they're kind of separating themselves. And we've got this great quote from the CIO just a few months ago, on why Terraform is likely pulling away, and I'll read it out here quickly. "The Terraform tool creates "an entire infrastructure in a box. "Unlike vendors that use procedural languages, "like Ants, Bull and Chef, "it will show you the infrastructure "in the way you want it to be. "You don't have to worry about "the things that happen underneath." I know some companies where you can put your entire Amazon infrastructure through Terraform. If Amazon disappears, if your availability drops, load balancers, RDS, everything, you just run Terraform and everything will be created in 10 to 15 minutes. So that shows you the power of Terraform and why we think it's ranked better than some of the other vendors. >> Yeah, I think that really does sum it up. And, actually, guys, if you don't mind bringing that chart back up again. So, a point out, so, Mitchell Hashimoto, Hashi, really, I believe I'm correct, talking to Stu about this a little bit, he sort of led the Terraform project, which is an Open Source project, and, to your point, very easy to deploy. Chef, Puppet, Salt, they were largely disrupted by Cloud, because they're designed to automate deployment largely on-prem and DevOps, and now Terraform sort of packages everything up into a platform. So, Hashi actually makes money, and you'll see it on this slide, and things, Vault, which is kind of their security play. You see GitLab on here. That's really application tooling to deploy code. You see Docker containers, you know, Docker, really all about open source, and they've had great adoption, Docker's challenge has always been monetization. You see Turbonomic on here, which is application resource management. You can't go too deep on these things, but it's pretty deep within this sector. But we are comparing different types of companies, but just to give you a sense as to where the momentum is. All right, let's wrap here. So maybe some final thoughts, Sagar, on the Emerging Technology Study, and then what we can expect in the coming month here, on the update in the Technology Spending Intention Study, please. >> Yeah, no problem. One last thing on the zero trust side that has been a big issue that we didn't get to cover, is VPN spend. Our data is pointing that, yes, even though VPN spend did increase the last few months because of remote work, we actually think that people are going to move away from that as they move onto zero trust. So just one last point on that, just in terms of overall thoughts, you know, again, as we cover it, you can see how bifurcated all these spaces are. Really, if we were to go sector by sector by sector, right, storage and block chain and MLAI and all that stuff, you would see there's a few or maybe one or two vendors doing well, and the majority of vendors are not seeing as many opportunities. And so, again, are you work-from-home aligned? Are you the best vendor of all the other emerging providers? And if you fit those two criteria then you will continue seeing POCs and evaluations. And if you don't fit that criteria, unfortunately, you're going to see less opportunities. So think that's really the big takeaway on that. And then, just in terms of next steps, we're already transitioning now to our next Technology Spending Intention Survey. That launched last week. And so, again, we're going to start getting a feel for how CIOs are spending in 2H-20, right, so, for the back half of the year. And our question changes a little bit. We ask them, "How do you plan on spending in the back half year "versus how you actually spent "in the first half of the year, or 1H-20?" So, we're kind of, tighten the screw, so to speak, and really getting an idea of what's spend going to look like in the back half, and we're also going to get some updates as it relates to budget impacts from COVID-19, as well as how vendor-relationships have changed, as well as business impacts, like layoffs and furloughs, and all that stuff. So we have a tremendous amount of data that's going to be coming in the next few weeks, and it should really prepare us for what to see over the summer and into the fall. >> Yeah, very excited, Sagar, to see that. I just wanted to double down on what you said about changes in networking. We've reported with you guys on NPLS networks, shifting to SD-WAN. But even VPN and SD-WAN are being called into question as the internet becomes the new private network. And so lots of changes there. And again, very excited to see updated data, return of post-COVID, as we exit this isolation economy. Really want to point out to folks that this is not a snapshot survey, right? This is an ongoing exercise that ETR runs, and grateful for our partnership with you guys. Check out ETR.plus, that's the ETR website. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. Sagar, thanks so much for coming on. Once again, great to have you. >> Thank you so much, for having me, Dave. I really appreciate it, as always. >> And thank you for watching this episode of theCube Insights, powered by ETR. This Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Male narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon Virtual Conference. DockerCon 20 being held digitally online is the CUBE's coverage. I'm John for your host of the CUBE. This is the CUBE virtual CUBE digital. We're getting all the remote interviews. We're here in our Palo Alto studio, quarantined crew, all getting the data for you. Got Peter Guangeti who's the Chief Marketing Officer Cockroach Labs, a company that we became familiar with last year. They had the first multicloud event in the history of the industry last year, notable milestone. Hey first, it's always good you're still around. So first you got the first position, Peter. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the CUBE for DockerCon 20. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> So it's kind of interesting, I mentioned that tidbit to give you a little bit of love on the fact that you guys ran or were a part of the first multicloud conference in the industry. Okay, now that's all everyone's talking about. You guys saw this early. Take a minute to explain Cockroach Labs. Why you saw this trend? Why you guys took the initiative and took the risk to have the first ever multicloud conference last year? >> So that's news to me that we were the first, actually. That's a bit of a surprise, cause for us we see multicloud and hybrid cloud as the obvious. I think the credit really for this belongs with folks like Gartner and others who took the time to listen to their customer, right? Took the time to understand what was the need in the market, which, you know, what I hear when I talk to CEOs is cloud is a capability, not a place, right? They're looking at us and saying, "yes, I have a go to cloud strategy, "but I also have made massive investments in my data center. "I believe I don't want to be locked in yet again "to another vendor with proprietary PIs, "proprietary systems, et cetera." So, what I hear when I talk to customers is, "I want to be multicloud show me how, "show me how to do that in a way "that isn't just buying from multiple vendors, right?" Where I've cost arbitrage, show me a way where I actually use the infrastructure in a creative way. And that really resonates with us. And it resonates with us for a few reasons. First is, we built a distributed SQL database for a reason, right? We believed that what you really need in the modern age for global applications is something that is truly diverse and distributed, right? You can have a database that behaves like a single database that lives in multiple locations around the world. But then you also have things like data locality. It's okay with German data stays in Germany because of German law. But when I write my application, I never write each of these things differently. Now, the other reason is, customers are coming to us and saying, "I want a single database that I can deploy "in any of the cloud providers." Azure SQL, and that is a phenomenal product. Google Spanner is a phenomenal product. But once I do that, I'm locked in. Then all I have is theirs. But if I'm a large global auto manufacturer, or if I'm a startup, that's trying to enter multiple markets at the same time. I don't want that. I want to be able to pick my infrastructure and deploy where I want, how I want. And increasingly, we talk to the large banks and they're saying, "I spent tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars "on data centers. "I don't want to throw them out. "I just want better utilization. "And the 15 to 20% that I get "from deploying software on bare metal, right? "I want to be able to containerize. "I want to be able to cloudify my data center "and then have ultimately what we see more and more "as what they call a tripod strategy "where your own data center and two cloud providers "behaving as a single unit "for your most important applications." >> That's awesome. I want to thank you for coming on to, for DockerCon 20, because this is an interesting time where developers are going to be called to the table in a very aggressive way because of COVID-19 crisis is going to accelerate until they pull the future forward ahead of most people thought. I mean, we, in the industry, we are inside the ropes, if you will. So we've been talking about stainless applications, stateful databases, and all the architectural things that's got that longer horizon. But this is an interesting time because now companies are realizing from whether it's the shelter in place at scale problems that emerge to the fact that I got to have high availability at a whole nother level. This kind of exposes a major challenge and a major opportunity. We're expecting projects to be funded, some not to be funded, things to move around. I think it's going to really change the conversation as developers get called in and saying, "I really got to look at my resources at scale. "The database is a critical one because you want data "to be part of that, this data plane, if you will, "across clouds." What's your reaction to this? Do you agree with that, the future has been pulled forward? And what's Cockroach doing to help developers do manage this? >> Yeah, John, I think you're exactly right. And I think that is a story that I'm glad that you're telling. Because, I think there's a lot of signal that's happening right now. But we're not really thinking about what the implications are. And we're seeing something that's I think quite remarkable. We're seeing within our existing customer base and the people we've been talking to, feast or famine. And in some cases, feast and famine in the same company. And what does that really mean? We've looked at these graphs for what's going to happen, for example, with online delivery services. And we've seen the growth rates and this is why they're all so valued. Why Uber invested so big in Uber eats and these other vendors. And we've seen these growth rates the same, and this is going to be amazing in the next 10 years, we're going to have this adoption. That five, 10 years happened overnight, right? We were so desperate to hold onto the things that are what mattered to us. And the things that make us happy on any given day. We're seeing that acceleration, like you said. It's all of that, the future got pulled forward, like you had said. >> Yeah. >> That's remarkable, but were you prepared for it? Many people were absolutely not prepared for it, right? They were on a steady state growth plan. And we have been very lucky because we built an architecture that is truly distributed and dynamic. So, scaling and adding more resilience to a database is something we all learned to do over the last 20 years, as data intensive applications matter. But with a distributed SQL and things like containerization on the stateless side, we know we can just truly elastically scale, right? You need more support for the application of something like Cockroach. You literally just add more nodes and we absorb it, right? Just like we did with containerization, where you need more concurrency, you just add more containers. And thank goodness, right, because I think those who were prepared for those things need to be worked with one of the large delivery services. Overnight, they saw a jump to what was their peak day at any point in time now happening every single day. And they were prepared for that because they already made these architectural decisions. >> Yeah. >> But if you weren't in that position, if you were still on legacy infrastructure, you were still trying to do this stuff manually, or you're manually sharding databases and having to increase the compute on your model, you are in trouble and you're feeling it. >> That's interesting Peter to bring that up and reminds me of the time, if you go back in history a little bit, just not too far back, I mean, I'm old enough to go back to the 80s, I remember all the different inflection points. And they all had their key characteristics as a computer revolution, TCP IP, and you pick your spots, there's always been that demarcation point or lions in where things change. But let's go back to around 2004 and then 2008. During that time, those legacy players out there kind of was sitting around, sleeping at the switch and incomes, open-source, incomes, Facebook, incomes, roll your own. Hey, I'm going to just run. I'm going to run open-source. I'm going to build my own database. And that was because there was nothing in the market. And most companies were buying from general purpose vendors because they didn't have to do all the due diligence. But the tech-savvy folks could build their own and scale. And that changed the game that became the hyperscale and the rest is history. Fast forward to today, because what you're getting at is, this new inflection point. There's going to be another tipping point of trajectory of knowledge, skill that's completely different than what we saw just a year ago. What's your reaction to that? >> I think you're exactly right. We saw and I've been lucky enough, same like you, I've been involved in the web since the very early days. I started my career at the beginning. And what we saw with web 1.0 and the shift to web 2.0, web 2.0 would not have happened without source. And I don't think we give them enough credit if it wasn't for the lamp stack, if it wasn't for Linux, if it wasn't for this wave of innovation and it wasn't even necessarily about rolling around. Yeah, the physics of the world to go hire their own engineers, to go and improve my SQL to make it scale. That was of course a possibility. But the democratization of that software is where all of the success really came from. And I lived on both sides of it in my career, as both an app developer and then as a software executive. In that window and got to see it from both sides and see the benefit. I think what we're entering now is yet another inflection point, like you said. We were already working at it. I think, the move from traditional applications with simple logic and simple rules to now highly data intensive applications, where data is driving the experience, models are driving the experience. I think we were already at a point where ML and AI and data intensive decision-making was going to make us rewrite every application we had and not needed a new infrastructure. But I think this is going to really force the issue. And it's going to force the issue at two levels. First is the people who are already innovating in each of these industries and categories, were already doing this. They were already cloud native. They were already built on top of very modern third generation databases, third generation programming languages, doing really interesting things with machine learning. So they were already out innovating, but now they have a bigger audience, right? And if you're a traditional and all of a sudden your business is under duress because substantial changes in what is happening in the market. Retailers still had strength with footprint as of last year, right? We don't be thinking about e-commerce versus traditional retail. Yeah, it was on a slow decline. There were lots of problems, but there was still a strength there, that happened changed overnight. Right now, that new sources have dried up, so what are you going to do? And how are you going to act? If you've built your entire business, for example, on legacy databases from folks like Oracle and old monolithic ways of building out patients, you're simply not adaptable enough to move with changing times. You're going to have to start, we used to talk about every company needed to become a software company. That mostly happened, but they weren't all very good software companies. I would argue that the next generation used to to be a great software company and great data scientists. We'll look at the software companies that have risen to prominence in the last five to 10 years. Folks like Facebook, folks like Google, folks like Uber, folks like Netflix, they use data better than anyone else in their category. So they have this amazing app experience and leverage data and innovate in such a way that allow them to just dominate their category. And I think that is going to be the change we see over the next 10 years. And we'll see who exits what is obviously going to be a jail term. We'll see who exits on top. >> Well, it's interesting to have you on. I love the perspective and the insights. I think that's great for the folks out there who haven't seen those ways before. Again, this wave is coming. Let's go back to the top when we were talking about what's in it for the developer. Because I believe there's going to be not a renaissance, cause it's always been great, but the developers even more are going to be called to the front lines for solutions. I mean, these are first-generation skill problems that are going to be in this whole next generation, modern era. That's upon us. What are some of the things that's going to be that lamp stack, like experience? What are some of the things that you see cause you guys are kind of at a tail sign, in my opinion, Cockroach, because you're thinking about things in a different construct. You're thinking about multicloud. You're thinking about state, which is a database challenge. Stateless has kind of been around restful API, stateless data service measures. Kubernetes is also showing a cloud native and the microservices or service orientation is the future. There's no debate on that. I think that's done. Okay, so now I'm a developer. What the hell am I going to be dealing with for the next five years? What's your thoughts? >> Well, I think the developer knows what they're already facing from an app perspective. I think you see the rapid evolution in languages, and then, in deployment and all of those things are super obvious. You need just need to go and say I'm sure that all the DockerCon sessions to see what the change to deployment looks like. I think there are a few other key trends that developers should start paying attention to, they are really critical. The first one, and only loosely related to us, is ML apps, right? I think just like we saw with dev and ops, suddenly come together so we can actually develop and deploy in a super fast iterative manner. The same things now are going to start happening with data and all of the work that we do around deploying models. And I think that that's going to be a pretty massive change. You think about the rise of tools like TensorFlow, some of the developments that have happened inside of the cloud providers. I think you're seeing a lot there as a developer, you have to start thinking as much like a data scientist and a data engineer as simply somebody writing front end code, right? And I think that's a critical skill that the best developers already building will continue. I think then the data layer has become as important or more important than any other layer in the stack because of this. And you think about once again, how the leaders are using data and the interesting things that they're doing, the tools you use matter, right? If you are spending a lot of your time trying to figure out how to shard something how to make it scale, how to make it durable when instead you should be focused on just the pure capability, that's a ridiculous use of your time, right? That is not a good use of your time. We're still using 20 to 25 year old open-source databases for many of these applications when they gave up their value probably 10 years ago. Honestly, you know, we keep all paper over it, but it's not a great solution. And unfortunately, no SQL will fix some of the issues with scaling elasticity, it's like you and I starting a business and saying, "okay, everyone speaks English, "but because we're global, "everyone's going to learn Esperanto, right?" That doesn't work, right? So works for a developer. But if you're trying to do something where everyone can interact, this is why this entire new third generation of new SQL databases have risen. We took the distributed architecture SQL. >> Hold up for a second. Can you explain what that means? Cause I think a key topic. I want to just call that out. What is this third generation database mean? Sorry, I speak about it. Like everyone sees it. >> I think it's super important. It's just a highlight. Just take a minute to explain it and we can get into it. There is an entire new wave of database infrastructure that has risen in the last five years. And it started actually with Google. So it started with Google Spanner. So Google was the first to face most of these problems, right? They were the first to face web scale. At least at the scale, we now know it. They were the first to really understand the complexity of working with data. They have their own no SQL. They have their own way of doing things internally and they realized it wasn't working. And what they really needed was a relational database that spoke traditional ANSI SQL, but scaled, like there are no SQL counterparts. And there was a white paper that was released. That was the birth of Spanner. Spanner was an internal product for many, many years. They released the thinking into the wild and then they just started this way with innovation. That's where our company came from. And there were others like us who said, "you're right. "Let's go build something that behaves," like we expect a database to behave with structure and this relational model and like anyone can write simple to use it. It's the simplest API for most people with data, but it behaves like all the best distributed software that we've been using. And so that's how we were born. Our company was founded by ex Googlers who had lived in this space and decided to go and scratch the itch, right? And instead of doing a product that would be locked into a single cloud provider, a database that could be open-source, it could be deployed anywhere. It could cross actual power providers without hiccups and that's been the movement. And it's not just us, there were other vendors in this space and we're all focused on really trying to take the best of the both worlds that came before us. The traditional relational structure, the consistency and asset compliance that we all loved from tools like Oracle, right? And Microsoft who we really enjoyed. But then the developer friendly nature and the simple elastic scalability of distributed software and, that's what we're all seeing. Our company, for example, has only been selling a product for the last two years. We found it five years ago, it took us three years just to rank in the software that we would be happy selling to a customer. We're on what we believe is probably a 10 to 15 year product journey to really go and replace things like Oracle. But we started selling the product two years ago and there is 300% growth year over year. We're probably one of the fastest growing software companies in America, right? And it's all because of the latent demand for this kind of a tool. >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm a big fan of this third wave. Can I see it? If you look at just the macro tailwinds in the industry, billions of edged devices, immersion of all kinds of software. So that means you can't have one database. I always said to someone, in (mumbles) and others. You can't have one database. It's physically impossible. You need data and whatever database fits the scene, wherever you want to have data being stored, but you got to have it real time. You got to have actionable, you have to have software intelligence into how to manage the data. So I think the data control plane or that layer, I think it's the next interoperability wave. Because without data, nothing really works. Machine learning doesn't really work well. You want the most data. I think cybersecurity is a great early use case because they have to leverage data fast. And so you start to see some interesting financial services, cyber, what's your thoughts on this? Can you share from the Cockroach Labs perspective, from your database, you've got a cloud. What are some of the adoption use cases? Who are those leaders? You can name names if you have them, if not, name the use case. What's the Cockroach approach? Who's winning with it? What's it look like? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And you nailed it, right? The data volumes are so large and they're so globally distributed. And then when you start layering again, the data streaming in from devices that then have to be weighed against all of these things. You want a single database. But you need one that will behave in a way that's going to support all of that and actually is going to live at the edge like you're saying. And that's where we have been shining. And so our use cases are, and unfortunate, I can't name any names, but, for example, in retail. We're seeing retailers who have that elasticity and that skill challenge with commerce. And what they're using us for is then, we're in all of the locations where they do business, right? And so we're able to have data locality associated with the businesses and the purchases in those countries. And however, only have single apps that actually bridge across all of those environments. And with the distributed nature, we were able to scale up and scale down truly elastically, right? Because we spread out the data across the nodes automatically. And, what we see there is, you know, retailers do you have up and down moments? Can you talk about people who can leverage the financial structure of the cloud in a really thoughtful way? Retail is a shining example of that. I remember having customers that had 64 times the amount of traffic on cyber Monday that they had on the average day. In the old data center world, that's what you bought for. That was horrendous. In a cloud environment, still horrendous, even public cloud providers. If you're having to go and change your app to ramp every time, that's a problem with something like a distributed database. and with containerization, you could scale much more quickly and scale down much more. That's a big one for streaming media, is another one. Same thing with data locality in each of these countries, you think about it, somebody like Netflix or Hulu, right? They have shows that are unique to specific countries, right? They haven't have that user behavior, all that user data. You know data sovereignty, you know, what you watch on Netflix, there's some very rich personal data. And we all know how that metadata has been used against people. Or so it's no surprise that you now have countries that I know there's going to be regulation around where that data can live and how it can. And so once again, something like Cockroach where you can have that global distribution, but take a locality, or we can lock data to certain nodes in certain locations. That's a big one. >> There's no doubt in my mind. I think there's such a big topic. We probably do more interviews just on the COVID-19 data problem that they have. The impact of getting this right, is a nerd problem today. But it is a technology solution for society globally in the future. Zero doubt in my mind on that. So, Peter, I want you to get the last word and to give a plugin to the developers that are watching out there about Cockroach. Why should they engage with you guys? What can you offer? Is there anything new you want to share about the company to the audience here at DockerCon 2020? Take us home in the next segment. >> Thank you, John. I'll keep the sales pitch to a minimum. I'm a former developer myself. I don't like being sold, so I appreciate it. But we believe we're building, what is the right database for the coming wave of cognitive applications. And specifically we've built what we believe is the ideal database for distributed applications and for containerized applications. So I would strongly encourage you to try it. It is open-source. It is truly cloud native. We have free education, so you can try it yourself. And once you get into it, it is traditional SQL that behaves like Postgres and other tools that you've already known of. And so it should be very familiar, you know, if you've come up through any of these other spaces will be very natural. Postgres compatible integrates with a number of ORM. So as a developer, just plugged right into the tools you use and we're on a rapid journey. We believe we can replace that first generation of technology built by the Oracles of the world. And we're committed to doing it. We're committed to spending the next five to 10 years in hard engineering to build that most powerful database to solve this problem. >> Well, thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome insight and historical perspective. get it out of experience. We believe and we want to share the audience in this time of crisis, more than ever to focus on critical nature of operations, because coming out of this, it is going to be a whole new reality. And I think the best tech will win the day and people will be building new things to grow, whether it's for profit or for societal benefit. The impact of what we do in the next year or two will determine a big trajectory and new technology, new approaches that are dealing with the realities of infrastructure, scale, working at home , sheltering in place to coming back to the hybrid world. We're coming virtualized, Peter. We've been virtualized, the media, the lifestyle, not just virtualization in the networking sense, but, fun times it was going to be challenging. So thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much, John. >> Okay, we're here for DockerCon 20 virtual conferences, the CUBE Virtual Segment. I want to thank you for watching. Stay with me. We've got stream all day today and check out the sessions. Jump in, it's going to be on demand. There's a lot of videos it's going to live on and thanks for watching and stay with us for more coverage and analysis. Here at DockerCon 20, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching >> Narrator: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is the CUBE conversation.

>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering the Virtual Vertica Big Data Conference 2020 brought to you by Vertica. >> Hi, everybody. Welcome back. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the Vertica Virtual Big Data Conference. It was, of course, going to be in Boston at the Encore Hotel. Win big with big data with the new casino but obviously Coronavirus has changed all that. Our hearts go out and we are empathy to those people who are struggling. We are going to continue our wall-to-wall coverage of this conference and we're here with Larry Lancaster who's the founder and CTO of Zebrium. Larry, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> You're welcome. So first question, why did you start Zebrium? >> You know, I've been dealing with machine data a long time. So for those of you who don't know what that is, if you can imagine servers or whatever goes on in a data center or in a SAS shop. There's data coming out of those servers, out of those applications and basically, you can build a lot of cool stuff on that. So there's a lot of metrics that come out and there's a lot of log files that come. And so, I've built this... Basically spent my career building that sort of thing. So tools on top of that or products on top of that. The problem is that since at least log files are completely unstructured, it's always doing the same thing over and over again, which is going in and understanding the data and extracting the data and all that stuff. It's very time consuming. If you've done it like five times you don't want to do it again. So really, my idea was at this point with machine learning where it's at there's got to be a better way. So Zebrium was founded on the notion that we can just do all that automatically. We can take a pile of machine data, we can turn it into a database, and we can build stuff on top of that. And so the company is really all about bringing that value to the market. >> That's cool. I want to get in to that, just better understand who you're disrupting and understand that opportunity better. But before I do, tell us a little bit about your background. You got kind of an interesting background. Lot of tech jobs. Give us some color there. >> Yeah, so I started in the Valley I guess 20 years ago and when my son was born I left grad school. I was in grad school over at Berkeley, Biophysics. And I realized I needed to go get a job so I ended up starting in software and I've been there ever since. I mean, I spent a lot of time at, I guess I cut my teeth at Nedap, which was a storage company. And then I co-founded a business called Glassbeam, which was kind of an ETL database company. And then after that I ended up at Nimble Storage. Another company, EMC, ended up buying the Glassbeam so I went over there and then after Nimble though, which where I build the InfoSight platform. That's where I kind of, after that I was able to step back and take a year and a half and just go into my basement, actually, this is my kind of workspace here, and come up with the technology and actually build it so that I could go raise money and get a team together to build Zebrium. So that's really my career in a nutshell. >> And you've got Hello Kitty over your right shoulder, which is kind of cool >> That's right. >> And then up to the left you got your monitor, right? >> Well, I had it. It's over here, yeah. >> But it was great! Pull it out, pull it out, let me see it. So, okay, so you got that. So what do you do? You just sit there and code all night or what? >> Yeah, that's right. So Hello Kitty's over here. I have a daughter and she setup my workspace here on this side with Hello Kitty and so on. And over on this side, I've got my recliner where I basically lay it all the way back and then I pivot this thing down over my face and put my keyboard on my lap and I can just sit there for like 20 hours. It's great. Completely comfortable. >> That's cool. All right, better put that monitor back or our guys will yell at me. But so, obviously, we're talking to somebody with serious coding chops and I'll also add that the Nimble InfoSight, I think it was one of the best pick ups that HP, HPE, has had in a while. And the thing that interested me about that, Larry, is the ability that the company was able to take that InfoSight and poured it very quickly across its product lines. So that says to me it was a modern, architecture, I'm sure API, microservices, and all those cool buzz words, but the proof is in their ability to bring that IP to other parts of the portfolio. So, well done. >> Yeah, well thanks. Appreciate that. I mean, they've got a fantastic team there. And the other thing that helps is when you have the notion that you don't just build on top of the data, you extract the data, you structure it, you put that in a database, we used Vertica there for that, and then you build on top of that. Taking the time to build that layer is what lets you build a scalable platform. >> Yeah, so, why Vertica? I mean, Vertica's been around for awhile. You remember you had the you had the old RDBMS, Oracles, Db2s, SQL Server, and then the database was kind of a boring market. And then, all of a sudden, you had all of these MPP companies came out, a spade of them. They all got acquired, including Vertica. And they've all sort of disappeared and morphed into different brands and Micro Focus has preserved the Vertica brand. But it seems like Vertica has been able to survive the transitions. Why Vertica? What was it about that platform that was unique and interested you? >> Well, I mean, so they're the first fund to build, what I would call a real column store that's kind of market capable, right? So there was the C-Store project at Berkeley, which Stonebreaker was involved in. And then that became sort of the seed from which Vertica was spawned. So you had this idea of, let's lay things out in a columnar way. And when I say columnar, I don't just mean that the data for every column is in a different set of files. What I mean by that is it takes full advantage of things like run length and coding, and L file and coding, and block--impression, and so you end up with these massive orders of magnitude savings in terms of the data that's being pulled off of storage as well as as it's moving through the pipeline internally in Vertica's query processing. So why am I saying all this? Because it's fundamentally, it was a fundamentally disruptive technology. I think column stores are ubiquitous now in analytics. And I think you could name maybe a couple of projects which are mostly open source who do something like Vertica does but name me another one that's actually capable of serving an enterprise as a relational database. I still think Vertica is unique in being that one. >> Well, it's interesting because you're a startup. And so a lot of startups would say, okay, we're going with a born-in-the-cloud database. Now Vertica touts that, well look, we've embraced cloud. You know, we have, we run in the cloud, we run on PRAM, all different optionality. And you hear a lot of vendors say that, but a lot of times they're just taking their stack and stuffing it into the cloud. But, so why didn't you go with a cloud-native database and is Vertica able to, I mean, obviously, that's why you chose it, but I'm interested from a technologist standpoint as to why you, again, made that choice given all these other choices around there. >> Right, I mean, again, I'm not, so... As I explained a column store, which I think is the appropriate definition, I'm not aware of another cloud-native-- >> Hm, okay. >> I'm aware of other cloud-native transactional databases, I'm not aware of one that has the analytics form it and I've tried some of them. So it was not like I didn't look. What I was actually impressed with and I think what let me move forward using Vertica in our stack is the fact that Eon really is built from the ground up to be cloud-native. And so we've been using Eon almost ever since we started the work that we're doing. So I've been really happy with the performance and with reliability of Eon. >> It's interesting. I've been saying for years that Vertica's a diamond in the rough and it's previous owner didn't know what to do with it because it got distracted and now Micro Focus seems to really see the value and is obviously putting some investments in there. >> Yeah >> Tell me more about your business. Who are you disrupting? Are you kind of disrupting the do-it-yourself? Or is there sort of a big whale out there that you're going to go after? Add some color to that. >> Yeah, so our broader market is monitoring software, that's kind of the high-level category. So you have a lot of people in that market right now. Some of them are entrenched in large players, like Datadog would be a great example. Some of them are smaller upstarts. It's a pretty, it's a pretty saturated market. But what's happened over the last, I'd say two years, is that there's been sort of a push towards what's called observability in terms of at least how some of the products are architected, like Honeycomb, and how some of them are messaged. Most of them are messaged these days. And what that really means is there's been sort of an understanding that's developed that that MTTR is really what people need to focus on to keep their customers happy. If you're a SAS company, MTTR is going to be your bread and butter. And it's still measured in hours and days. And the biggest reason for that is because of what's called unknown unknowns. Because of complexity. Now a days, things are, applications are ten times as complex as they used to be. And what you end up with is a situation where if something is new, if it's a known issue with a known symptom and a known root cause, then you can setup a automation for it. But the ones that really cost a lot of time in terms of service disruption are unknown unknowns. And now you got to go dig into this massive mass of data. So observability is about making tools to help you do that, but it's still going to take you hours. And so our contention is, you need to automate the eyeball. The bottleneck is now the eyeball. And so you have to get away from this notion of a person's going to be able to do it infinitely more efficient and recognize that you need automated help. When you get an alert agent, it shouldn't be that, "Hey, something weird's happening. Now go dig in." It should be, "Here's a root cause and a symptom." And that should be proposed to you by a system that actually does the observing. That actually does the watching. And that's what Zebrium does. >> Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, you're right. The last thing you want is just another alert and it say, "Go figure something out because there's a problem." So how does it work, Larry? In terms of what you built there. Can you take us inside the covers? >> Yeah, sure. So there's really, right now there's two kinds of data that we're ingesting. There's metrics and there's log files. Metrics, there's actually sort of a framework that's really popular in DevOp circles especially but it's becoming popular everywhere, which is called Prometheus. And it's a way of exporting metrics so that scrapers can collect them. And so if you go look at a typical stack, you'll find that most of the open source components and many of the closed source components are going to have exporters that export all their stacks to Prometheus. So by supporting that stack we can bring in all of those metrics. And then there's also the log files. And so you've got host log files in a containerized environment, you've got container logs, and you've got application-specific logs, perhaps living on a host mount. And you want to pull all those back and you want to be able to associate this log that I've collected here is associated with the same container on the same host that this metric is associated with. But now what? So once you've got that, you've got a pile of unstructured logs. So what we do is we take a look at those logs and we say, let's structure those into tables, right? So where I used to have a log message, if I look in my log file and I see it says something like, X happened five times, right? Well, that event types going to occur again and it'll say, X happened six times or X happened three times. So if I see that as a human being, I can say, "Oh clearly, that's the same thing." And what's interesting here is the times that X, that X happened, and that this number read... I may want to know when the numbers happened as a time series, the values of that column. And so you can imagine it as a table. So now I have table for that event type and every time it happens, I get a row. And then I have a column with that number in it. And so now I can do any kind of analytics I want almost instantly across my... If I have all my event types structured that way, every thing changes. You can do real anomaly detection and incident detection on top of that data. So that's really how we go about doing it. How we go about being able to do autonomous monitoring in a way that's effective. >> How do you handle doing that for, like the Spoke app? Do you have to, does somebody have to build a connector to those apps? How do you handle that? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. So you're right. So if I go and install a typical log manager, there'll be connectors for different apps and usually what that means is pulling in the stuff on the left, if you were to be looking at that log line, and it will be things like a time stamp, or a severity, or a function name, or various other things. And so the connector will know how to pull those apart and then the stuff to the right will be considered the message and that'll get indexed for search. And so our approach is we actually go in with machine learning and we structure that whole thing. So there's a table. And it's going to have a column called severity, and timestamp, and function name. And then it's going to have columns that correspond to the parameters that are in that event. And it'll have a name associated with the constant parts of that event. And so you end up with a situation where you've structured all of it automatically so we don't need collectors. It'll work just as well on your home-grown app that has no collectors or no parsers to find or anything. It'll work immediately just as well as it would work on anything else. And that's important, because you can't be asking people for connectors to their own applications. It just, it becomes now they've go to stop what they're doing and go write code for you, for your platform and they have to maintain it. It's just untenable. So you can be up and running with our service in three minutes. It'll just be monitoring those for you. >> That's awesome! I mean, that is really a breakthrough innovation. So, nice. Love to see that hittin' the market. Who do you sell to? Both types of companies and what role within the company? >> Well, definitely there's two main sort of pushes that we've seen, or I should say pulls. One is from DevOps folks, SRE folks. So these are people who are tasked with monitoring an environment, basically. And then you've got people who are in engineering and they have a staging environment. And what they actually find valuable is... Because when we find an incident in a staging environment, yeah, half the time it's because they're tearing everything up and it's not release ready, whatever's in stage. That's fine, they know that. But the other half the time it's new bugs, it's issues and they're finding issues. So it's kind of diverged. You have engineering users and they don't have titles like QA, they're Dev engineers or Dev managers that are really interested. And then you've got DevOps and SRE people there (mumbles). >> And how do I consume your product? Is the SAS... I sign up and you say within three minutes I'm up and running. I'm paying by the drink. >> Well, (laughs) right. So there's a couple ways. So, right. So the easiest way is if you use Kubernetes. So Kubernetes is what's called a container orchestrator. So these days, you know Docker and containers and all that, so now there's container orchestrators have become, I wouldn't say ubiquitous but they're very popular now. So it's kind of on that inflection curve. I'm not exactly sure the penetration but I'm going to say 30-40% probably of shops that were interested are using container orchestrators. So if you're using Kubernetes, basically you can install our Kubernetes chart, which basically means copying and pasting a URL and so on into your little admin panel there. And then it'll just start collecting all the logs and metrics and then you just login on the website. And the way you do that is just go to our website and it'll show you how to sign up for the service and you'll get your little API key and link to the chart and you're off and running. You don't have to do anything else. You can add rules, you can add stuff, but you don't have to. You shouldn't have to, right? You should never have to do any more work. >> That's great. So it's a SAS capability and I just pay for... How do you price it? >> Oh, right. So it's priced on volume, data volume. I don't want to go too much into it because I'm not the pricing guy. But what I'll say is that it's, as far as I know it's as cheap or cheaper than any other log manager or metrics product. It's in that same neighborhood as the very low priced ones. Because right now, we're not trying to optimize for take. We're trying to make a healthy margin and get the value of autonomous monitoring out there. Right now, that's our priority. >> And it's running in the cloud, is that right? AWB West-- >> Yeah, that right. Oh, I should've also pointed out that you can have a free account if it's less than some number of gigabytes a day we're not going to charge. Yeah, so we run in AWS. We have a multi-tenant instance in AWS. And we have a Vertica Eon cluster behind that. And it's been working out really well. >> And on your freemium, you have used the Vertica Community Edition? Because they don't charge you for that, right? So is that how you do it or... >> No, no. We're, no, no. So, I don't want to go into that because I'm not the bizdev guy. But what I'll say is that if you're doing something that winds up being OEM-ish, you can work out the particulars with Vertica. It's not like you're going to just go pay retail and they won't let you distinguish between tests, and prod, and paid, and all that. They'll work with you. Just call 'em up. >> Yeah, and that's why I brought it up because Vertica, they have a community edition, which is not neutered. It runs Eon, it's just there's limits on clusters and storage >> There's limits. >> But it's still fully functional though. >> So to your point, we want it multi-tenant. So it's big just because it's multi-tenant. We have hundred of users on that (audio cuts out). >> And then, what's your partnership with Vertica like? Can we close on that and just describe that a little bit? >> What's it like. I mean, it's pleasant. >> Yeah, I mean (mumbles). >> You know what, so the important thing... Here's what's important. What's important is that I don't have to worry about that layer of our stack. When it comes to being able to get the performance I need, being able to get the economy of scale that I need, being able to get the absolute scale that I need, I've not been disappointed ever with Vertica. And frankly, being able to have acid guarantees and everything else, like a normal mature database that can join lots of tables and still be fast, that's also necessary at scale. And so I feel like it was definitely the right choice to start with. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I remember in the early days of big data a lot of people said, "Who's going to need these acid properties and all this complexity of databases." And of course, acid properties and SQL became the killer features and functions of these databases. >> Who didn't see that one coming, right? >> Yeah, right. And then, so you guys have done a big seed round. You've raised a little over $6 million dollars and you got the product market fit down. You're ready to rock, right? >> Yeah, that's right. So we're doing a launch probably, well, when this airs it'll probably be the day before this airs. Basically, yeah. We've got people... Like literally in the last, I'd say, six to eight weeks, It's just been this sort of pique of interest. All of a sudden, everyone kind of gets what we're doing, realizes they need it, and we've got a solution that seems to meet expectations. So it's like... It's been an amazing... Let me just say this, it's been an amazing start to the year. I mean, at the same time, it's been really difficult for us but more difficult for some other people that haven't been able to go to work over the last couple of weeks and so on. But it's been a good start to the year, at least for our business. So... >> Well, Larry, congratulations on getting the company off the ground and thank you so much for coming on theCUBE and being part of the Virtual Vertica Big Data Conference. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, and thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. Keep it right there. We're covering wall-to-wall Virtual Vertica BDC. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)