>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

>> (bright music) >> Narrator: The Cube, presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon, year of 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Now what we're opening. Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon Cloudnativecon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillin, who is the senior editor for architecture at Silicon angle, Paul. >> Keith you've been asking me questions all these last two days. Let me ask you one. You're a traveling man. You go to a lot of conferences. What's different about this one. >> You know what, we're just talking about that pre-conference, open source conferences are usually pretty intimate. This is big. 7,500 people talking about complex topics, all in one big area. And then it's, I got to say it's overwhelming. It's way more. It's not focused on a single company's product or messaging. It is about a whole ecosystem, very different show. >> And certainly some of the best t-shirts I've ever seen. And our first guest, Jim has one of the better ones. >> I mean a bit cockroach come on, right. >> Jim Walker, principal product evangelist at CockroachDB and Christian Huning, tech director of cloud technologies at Finleap Connect, a financial services company that's based out of Germany, now offering services in four countries now. >> Basically all over Europe. >> Okay. >> But we are in three countries with offices. >> So you're CockroachDB customer and I got to ask the obvious question. Databases are hard and started the company in 2015 CockroachDB, been a customer since 2019, I understand. Why take the risk on a four year old database. I mean that just sounds like a world of risk and trouble. >> So it was in 2018 when we joined the company back then and we did this cloud native transformation, that was our task basically. We had very limited amount of time and we were faced with a legacy infrastructure and we needed something that would run in a cloud native way and just blend in with everything else we had. And the idea was to go all in with Kubernetes. Though early days, a lot of things were alpha beta, and we were running on mySQL back then. >> Yeah. >> On a VM, kind of small setup. And then we were looking for something that we could just deploy in Kubernetes, alongside with everything else. And we had to stack and we had to duplicate it many times. So also to maintain that we wanted to do it all the same like with GitOps and everything and Cockroach delivered that proposition. So that was why we evaluate the risk of relatively early adopting that solution with the proposition of having something that's truly cloud native and really blends in with everything else we do in the same way was something we considered, and then we jumped the leap of faith and >> The fin leap of faith >> The fin leap of faith. Exactly. And we were not dissatisfied. >> So talk to me a little bit about the challenges because when we think of MySQL, MySQL scales to amazing sizes, it is the de facto database for many cloud based architectures. What problems were you running into with MySQL? >> We were running into the problem that we essentially, as a finTech company, we are regulated and we have companies, customers that really value running things like on-prem, private cloud, on-prem is a bit of a bad word, maybe. So it's private cloud, hybrid cloud, private cloud in our own data centers in Frankfurt. And we needed to run it in there. So we wanted to somehow manage that and with, so all of the managed solution were off the table, so we couldn't use them. So we needed something that ran in Kubernetes because we only wanted to maintain Kubernetes. We're a small team, didn't want to use also like full blown VM solution, of sorts. So that was that. And the other thing was, we needed something that was HA distributable somehow. So we also looked into other solutions back at the time, like Vitis, which is also prominent for having a MySQL compliant interface and great solution. We also got into work, but we figured, this is from the scale, and from the sheer amount of maintenance it would need, we couldn't deliver that, we were too small for that. So that's where then Cockroach just fitted in nicely by being able to distribute BHA, be resilient against failure, but also be able to scale out because we had this problem with a single MySQL deployment to not really, as it grew, as the data amounts grew, we had trouble to operatively keep that under control. >> So Jim, every time someone comes to me and says, I have a new database, I think we don't need it, yet another database. >> Right. >> What problem, or how does CockroachDB go about solving the types of problems that Christian had? >> Yeah. I mean, Christian laid out why it exists. I mean, look guys, building a database isn't easy. If it was easy, we'd have a database for every application, but you know, Michael Stonebraker, kind of godfather of all database says it himself, it takes seven, eight years for a database to fully gestate to be something that's like enterprise ready and kind of, be relied upon. We've been billing for about seven, eight years. I mean, I'm thankful for people like Christian to join us early on to help us kind of like troubleshoot and go through some things. We're building a database, it's not easy. You're right. But building a distributor system is also not easy. And so for us, if you look at what's going on in just infrastructure in general, what's happening in Kubernetes, like this whole space is Kubernetes. It's all about automation. How do I automate scale? How do I automate resilience out of the entire equation of what we're actually doing? I don't want to have to think about active passive systems. I don't want to think about sharding a database. Sure you can scale MySQL. You know, how many people it takes to run three or four shards of MySQL database. That's not automation. And I tell you what, this world right now with the advances in data how hard it is to find people who actually understand infrastructure to hire them. This is why this automation is happening, because our systems are more complex. So we started from the very beginning to be something that was very different. This is a cloud native database. This is built with the same exact principles that are in Kubernetes. In fact, like Kubernetes it's kind of a spawn of borg, the back end of Google. We are inspired by Spanner. I mean, this started by three engineers that worked at Google, are frustrated, they didn't have the tools, they had at Google. So they built something that was, outside of Google. And how do we give that kind of Google like infrastructure for everybody. And that's, the advent of Cockroach and kind of why we're doing, what we're doing. >> As your database has matured, you're now beginning a transition or you're in a transition to a serverless version. How are you doing that without disrupting the experience for existing customers? And why go serverless at all? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, serverless was, it was kind of a an R&D project for us. And when we first started on a path, because I think you know, ultimately what we would love to do for the database is let's not even think about database, Keith. Like, I don't want to think about the database. What we're building too is, we want a SQL API in the cloud. That's it. I don't want to think about scale. I don't want to think about upgrades. I literally like. that stuff should just go away. That's what we need, right. As developers, I don't want to think about isolation levels or like, you know, give me DML and I want to be able to communicate. And for us the realization of that vision is like, if we're going to put a database on the planet for everybody to actually use it, we have to be really, really efficient. And serverless, which I believe really should be infrastructure less because I don't think we should be thinking of just about service. We got to think about, how do I take the context of regions out of this thing? How do I take the context of cloud providers out of what we're talking about? Let's just not think about that. Let's just code against something. Serverless was the answer. Now we've been building for about a year and a half. We launched a serverless version of Cockroach last October and we did it so that everybody in the public could have a free version of a database. And that's what serverless allows us to do. It's all consumption based up to certain limits and then you pay. But I think ultimately, and we spoke a little bit about this at the very beginning. I think as ISVs, people who are building software today the serverless vision gets really interesting because I think what's on the mind of the CTO is, how do I drive down my cost to the cloud provider? And if we can basically, drive down costs through either making things multi-tenant and super efficient, and then optimizing how much compute we use, spinning things down to zero and back up and auto scaling these sort of things in our software. We can start to make changes in the way that people are thinking about spend with the cloud provider. And ultimately we did that, so we could do things for free. >> So, Jim, I think I disagree Christian, I'm sorry, Jim. I think I disagree with you just a little bit. Christian, I think the biggest challenge facing CTOs are people. >> True. >> Getting the people to worry about cost and spend and implementation. So as you hear the concepts of CoachDB moving to a serverless model, and you're a large customer how does that make you think or react to your people side of your resources? >> Well, I can say that from the people side of resources luckily Cockroach is our least problem. So it just kind of, we always said, it's an operator stream because that was the part that just worked for us, so. >> And it's worked as you have scaled it? without you having ... >> Yeah. I mean, we use it in a bit of a, we do not really scale out like the Cockroach, like really large. It's like, more that we use it with the enterprise features of encryption in the stack and our customers then demand. If they do so, we have the Zas offering and we also do like dedicated stacks. So by having a fully cloud native solution on top of Kubernetes, as the foundational layer we can just use that and stamp it out and deploy it. >> How does that translate into services you can provide your customers? Are there services you can provide customers that you couldn't have, if you were running, say, MySQL? >> No, what we do is, we run this, so the SAS offering runs in our hybrid private cloud. And the other thing that we offer is that we run the entire stack at a cloud provider of their choosing. So if they are an AWS, they give us an AWS account, we put it in there. Theoretically, we could then also talk about using the serverless variant, if they like so, but it's not strictly required for us. >> So Christian, talk to me about that provisioning process because if I had a MySQL deployment before I can imagine how putting that into a cloud native type of repeatable CICD pipeline or Ansible script that could be difficult. Talk to me about that. How CockroachDB enables you to create new onboarding experiences for your customers? >> So what we do is, we use helm charts all over the place as probably everybody else. And then each application team has their parts of services, they've packaged them to helm charts, they've wrapped us in a super chart that gets wrapped into the super, super chart for the entire stack. And then at the right place, somewhere in between Cockroach is added, where it's a dependency. And as they just offer a helm chart that's as easy as it gets. And then what the teams do is they have an inner job, that once you deploy all that, it would spin up. And as soon as Cockroach is ready it's just the same reconcile loop as everything. It will then provision users, set up database schema, do all that. And initialize, initial data sets that might be required for a new setup. So with that setup, we can spin up a new cluster and then deploy that stack chart in there. And it takes some time. And then it's done. >> So talk to me about life cycle management. Because when I have one database, I have one schema. When I have a lot of databases I have a lot of different schemas. How do you keep your stack consistent across customers? >> That is basically part of the same story. We have get offs all over the place. So we have this repository, we see the super helm chart versions and we maintain like minus three versions and ensure that we update the customers and keep them up to date. It's part of the contract sometimes, down to the schedule of the customer at times. And Cockroach nicely supports also, these updates with these migrations in the background, the schema migrations in the background. So we use in our case, in that integration SQL alchemy, which is also nicely supported. So there was also part of the story from MySQL to Postgres, was supported by the ORM, these kind of things. So the skill approach together with the ease of helm charts and the background migrations of the schema is a very seamless upgrade operations. Before that we had to have downtime. >> That's right, you could have online schema changes. Upgrading the database uses the same concept of rolling upgrades that you have in Kubernetes. It's just cloud native. It just fits that same context, I think. >> Christian: It became a no-brainer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jim, you mentioned the idea of a SQL API in the cloud, that's really interesting. Why does such a thing not exist? >> Because it's really difficult to build. You know, SQL API, what does that mean? Like, okay. What I'm going to, where does that endpoint live? Is there one in California one on the east coast, one in Europe, one in Asia? Okay. And I'm asking that endpoint for data. Where does that data live? Can you control where data lives on the planet? Because ultimately what we're fighting in software today in a lot of these situations is the speed of light. And so how do you intelligently place data on this planet? So that, you know, when you're asking for data, when you're maybe home, it's a different latency than when you're here in Valencia. Does that data follow and move you? These are really, really difficult problems to solve. And I think that we're at that layer of, we're at this moment in time in software engineering, we're solving some really interesting, interesting things cause we are budding against this speed of light problem. And ultimately that's one of the biggest challenges. But underneath, it has to have all this automation like the ease at which we can scale this database like the always on resilient, the way that we can upgrade the entire thing with just rolling upgrades. The cloud native concepts is really what's enabling us to do things at global scale it's automation. >> Let's alk about that speed of light in global scale. There's no better conference for speed of light, for scale, than Kubecon. Any predictions coming out of the show? >> It's less a prediction for me and more of an observation, you guys. Like look at two years ago, when we were here in Barcelona at QCon EU, it was a lot of hype. It's a lot of hype, a lot of people walking around, curious, fascinated, this is reality. The conversations that I'm having with people today, there's a reality. There's people really doing, they're becoming cloud native. And to me, I think what we're going to see over the next two to three years is people start to adopt this kind of distributed mindset. And it permeates not just within infrastructure but it goes up into the stack. We'll start to see much more developers using, Go and these kind of the threaded languages, because I think that distributed mindset, if it starts at the chip all the way to the fingertip of the person clicking and you're distributed everywhere in between. It is extremely powerful. And I think that's what Finleap, I mean, that's exactly what the team is doing. And I think there's a lot of value and a lot of power in that. >> Jim, Christian, thank you so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your story. You know what we're past the hype cycle of Kubernetes, I agree. I was a nonbeliever in Kubernetes two, three years ago. It was mostly hype. We're looking at customers from Microsoft, Finleap and competitors doing amazing things with this platform and cloud native in general. Stay tuned for more coverage of Kubecon from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillin and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

>> Male narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon Virtual Conference. DockerCon 20 being held digitally online is the CUBE's coverage. I'm John for your host of the CUBE. This is the CUBE virtual CUBE digital. We're getting all the remote interviews. We're here in our Palo Alto studio, quarantined crew, all getting the data for you. Got Peter Guangeti who's the Chief Marketing Officer Cockroach Labs, a company that we became familiar with last year. They had the first multicloud event in the history of the industry last year, notable milestone. Hey first, it's always good you're still around. So first you got the first position, Peter. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the CUBE for DockerCon 20. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> So it's kind of interesting, I mentioned that tidbit to give you a little bit of love on the fact that you guys ran or were a part of the first multicloud conference in the industry. Okay, now that's all everyone's talking about. You guys saw this early. Take a minute to explain Cockroach Labs. Why you saw this trend? Why you guys took the initiative and took the risk to have the first ever multicloud conference last year? >> So that's news to me that we were the first, actually. That's a bit of a surprise, cause for us we see multicloud and hybrid cloud as the obvious. I think the credit really for this belongs with folks like Gartner and others who took the time to listen to their customer, right? Took the time to understand what was the need in the market, which, you know, what I hear when I talk to CEOs is cloud is a capability, not a place, right? They're looking at us and saying, "yes, I have a go to cloud strategy, "but I also have made massive investments in my data center. "I believe I don't want to be locked in yet again "to another vendor with proprietary PIs, "proprietary systems, et cetera." So, what I hear when I talk to customers is, "I want to be multicloud show me how, "show me how to do that in a way "that isn't just buying from multiple vendors, right?" Where I've cost arbitrage, show me a way where I actually use the infrastructure in a creative way. And that really resonates with us. And it resonates with us for a few reasons. First is, we built a distributed SQL database for a reason, right? We believed that what you really need in the modern age for global applications is something that is truly diverse and distributed, right? You can have a database that behaves like a single database that lives in multiple locations around the world. But then you also have things like data locality. It's okay with German data stays in Germany because of German law. But when I write my application, I never write each of these things differently. Now, the other reason is, customers are coming to us and saying, "I want a single database that I can deploy "in any of the cloud providers." Azure SQL, and that is a phenomenal product. Google Spanner is a phenomenal product. But once I do that, I'm locked in. Then all I have is theirs. But if I'm a large global auto manufacturer, or if I'm a startup, that's trying to enter multiple markets at the same time. I don't want that. I want to be able to pick my infrastructure and deploy where I want, how I want. And increasingly, we talk to the large banks and they're saying, "I spent tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars "on data centers. "I don't want to throw them out. "I just want better utilization. "And the 15 to 20% that I get "from deploying software on bare metal, right? "I want to be able to containerize. "I want to be able to cloudify my data center "and then have ultimately what we see more and more "as what they call a tripod strategy "where your own data center and two cloud providers "behaving as a single unit "for your most important applications." >> That's awesome. I want to thank you for coming on to, for DockerCon 20, because this is an interesting time where developers are going to be called to the table in a very aggressive way because of COVID-19 crisis is going to accelerate until they pull the future forward ahead of most people thought. I mean, we, in the industry, we are inside the ropes, if you will. So we've been talking about stainless applications, stateful databases, and all the architectural things that's got that longer horizon. But this is an interesting time because now companies are realizing from whether it's the shelter in place at scale problems that emerge to the fact that I got to have high availability at a whole nother level. This kind of exposes a major challenge and a major opportunity. We're expecting projects to be funded, some not to be funded, things to move around. I think it's going to really change the conversation as developers get called in and saying, "I really got to look at my resources at scale. "The database is a critical one because you want data "to be part of that, this data plane, if you will, "across clouds." What's your reaction to this? Do you agree with that, the future has been pulled forward? And what's Cockroach doing to help developers do manage this? >> Yeah, John, I think you're exactly right. And I think that is a story that I'm glad that you're telling. Because, I think there's a lot of signal that's happening right now. But we're not really thinking about what the implications are. And we're seeing something that's I think quite remarkable. We're seeing within our existing customer base and the people we've been talking to, feast or famine. And in some cases, feast and famine in the same company. And what does that really mean? We've looked at these graphs for what's going to happen, for example, with online delivery services. And we've seen the growth rates and this is why they're all so valued. Why Uber invested so big in Uber eats and these other vendors. And we've seen these growth rates the same, and this is going to be amazing in the next 10 years, we're going to have this adoption. That five, 10 years happened overnight, right? We were so desperate to hold onto the things that are what mattered to us. And the things that make us happy on any given day. We're seeing that acceleration, like you said. It's all of that, the future got pulled forward, like you had said. >> Yeah. >> That's remarkable, but were you prepared for it? Many people were absolutely not prepared for it, right? They were on a steady state growth plan. And we have been very lucky because we built an architecture that is truly distributed and dynamic. So, scaling and adding more resilience to a database is something we all learned to do over the last 20 years, as data intensive applications matter. But with a distributed SQL and things like containerization on the stateless side, we know we can just truly elastically scale, right? You need more support for the application of something like Cockroach. You literally just add more nodes and we absorb it, right? Just like we did with containerization, where you need more concurrency, you just add more containers. And thank goodness, right, because I think those who were prepared for those things need to be worked with one of the large delivery services. Overnight, they saw a jump to what was their peak day at any point in time now happening every single day. And they were prepared for that because they already made these architectural decisions. >> Yeah. >> But if you weren't in that position, if you were still on legacy infrastructure, you were still trying to do this stuff manually, or you're manually sharding databases and having to increase the compute on your model, you are in trouble and you're feeling it. >> That's interesting Peter to bring that up and reminds me of the time, if you go back in history a little bit, just not too far back, I mean, I'm old enough to go back to the 80s, I remember all the different inflection points. And they all had their key characteristics as a computer revolution, TCP IP, and you pick your spots, there's always been that demarcation point or lions in where things change. But let's go back to around 2004 and then 2008. During that time, those legacy players out there kind of was sitting around, sleeping at the switch and incomes, open-source, incomes, Facebook, incomes, roll your own. Hey, I'm going to just run. I'm going to run open-source. I'm going to build my own database. And that was because there was nothing in the market. And most companies were buying from general purpose vendors because they didn't have to do all the due diligence. But the tech-savvy folks could build their own and scale. And that changed the game that became the hyperscale and the rest is history. Fast forward to today, because what you're getting at is, this new inflection point. There's going to be another tipping point of trajectory of knowledge, skill that's completely different than what we saw just a year ago. What's your reaction to that? >> I think you're exactly right. We saw and I've been lucky enough, same like you, I've been involved in the web since the very early days. I started my career at the beginning. And what we saw with web 1.0 and the shift to web 2.0, web 2.0 would not have happened without source. And I don't think we give them enough credit if it wasn't for the lamp stack, if it wasn't for Linux, if it wasn't for this wave of innovation and it wasn't even necessarily about rolling around. Yeah, the physics of the world to go hire their own engineers, to go and improve my SQL to make it scale. That was of course a possibility. But the democratization of that software is where all of the success really came from. And I lived on both sides of it in my career, as both an app developer and then as a software executive. In that window and got to see it from both sides and see the benefit. I think what we're entering now is yet another inflection point, like you said. We were already working at it. I think, the move from traditional applications with simple logic and simple rules to now highly data intensive applications, where data is driving the experience, models are driving the experience. I think we were already at a point where ML and AI and data intensive decision-making was going to make us rewrite every application we had and not needed a new infrastructure. But I think this is going to really force the issue. And it's going to force the issue at two levels. First is the people who are already innovating in each of these industries and categories, were already doing this. They were already cloud native. They were already built on top of very modern third generation databases, third generation programming languages, doing really interesting things with machine learning. So they were already out innovating, but now they have a bigger audience, right? And if you're a traditional and all of a sudden your business is under duress because substantial changes in what is happening in the market. Retailers still had strength with footprint as of last year, right? We don't be thinking about e-commerce versus traditional retail. Yeah, it was on a slow decline. There were lots of problems, but there was still a strength there, that happened changed overnight. Right now, that new sources have dried up, so what are you going to do? And how are you going to act? If you've built your entire business, for example, on legacy databases from folks like Oracle and old monolithic ways of building out patients, you're simply not adaptable enough to move with changing times. You're going to have to start, we used to talk about every company needed to become a software company. That mostly happened, but they weren't all very good software companies. I would argue that the next generation used to to be a great software company and great data scientists. We'll look at the software companies that have risen to prominence in the last five to 10 years. Folks like Facebook, folks like Google, folks like Uber, folks like Netflix, they use data better than anyone else in their category. So they have this amazing app experience and leverage data and innovate in such a way that allow them to just dominate their category. And I think that is going to be the change we see over the next 10 years. And we'll see who exits what is obviously going to be a jail term. We'll see who exits on top. >> Well, it's interesting to have you on. I love the perspective and the insights. I think that's great for the folks out there who haven't seen those ways before. Again, this wave is coming. Let's go back to the top when we were talking about what's in it for the developer. Because I believe there's going to be not a renaissance, cause it's always been great, but the developers even more are going to be called to the front lines for solutions. I mean, these are first-generation skill problems that are going to be in this whole next generation, modern era. That's upon us. What are some of the things that's going to be that lamp stack, like experience? What are some of the things that you see cause you guys are kind of at a tail sign, in my opinion, Cockroach, because you're thinking about things in a different construct. You're thinking about multicloud. You're thinking about state, which is a database challenge. Stateless has kind of been around restful API, stateless data service measures. Kubernetes is also showing a cloud native and the microservices or service orientation is the future. There's no debate on that. I think that's done. Okay, so now I'm a developer. What the hell am I going to be dealing with for the next five years? What's your thoughts? >> Well, I think the developer knows what they're already facing from an app perspective. I think you see the rapid evolution in languages, and then, in deployment and all of those things are super obvious. You need just need to go and say I'm sure that all the DockerCon sessions to see what the change to deployment looks like. I think there are a few other key trends that developers should start paying attention to, they are really critical. The first one, and only loosely related to us, is ML apps, right? I think just like we saw with dev and ops, suddenly come together so we can actually develop and deploy in a super fast iterative manner. The same things now are going to start happening with data and all of the work that we do around deploying models. And I think that that's going to be a pretty massive change. You think about the rise of tools like TensorFlow, some of the developments that have happened inside of the cloud providers. I think you're seeing a lot there as a developer, you have to start thinking as much like a data scientist and a data engineer as simply somebody writing front end code, right? And I think that's a critical skill that the best developers already building will continue. I think then the data layer has become as important or more important than any other layer in the stack because of this. And you think about once again, how the leaders are using data and the interesting things that they're doing, the tools you use matter, right? If you are spending a lot of your time trying to figure out how to shard something how to make it scale, how to make it durable when instead you should be focused on just the pure capability, that's a ridiculous use of your time, right? That is not a good use of your time. We're still using 20 to 25 year old open-source databases for many of these applications when they gave up their value probably 10 years ago. Honestly, you know, we keep all paper over it, but it's not a great solution. And unfortunately, no SQL will fix some of the issues with scaling elasticity, it's like you and I starting a business and saying, "okay, everyone speaks English, "but because we're global, "everyone's going to learn Esperanto, right?" That doesn't work, right? So works for a developer. But if you're trying to do something where everyone can interact, this is why this entire new third generation of new SQL databases have risen. We took the distributed architecture SQL. >> Hold up for a second. Can you explain what that means? Cause I think a key topic. I want to just call that out. What is this third generation database mean? Sorry, I speak about it. Like everyone sees it. >> I think it's super important. It's just a highlight. Just take a minute to explain it and we can get into it. There is an entire new wave of database infrastructure that has risen in the last five years. And it started actually with Google. So it started with Google Spanner. So Google was the first to face most of these problems, right? They were the first to face web scale. At least at the scale, we now know it. They were the first to really understand the complexity of working with data. They have their own no SQL. They have their own way of doing things internally and they realized it wasn't working. And what they really needed was a relational database that spoke traditional ANSI SQL, but scaled, like there are no SQL counterparts. And there was a white paper that was released. That was the birth of Spanner. Spanner was an internal product for many, many years. They released the thinking into the wild and then they just started this way with innovation. That's where our company came from. And there were others like us who said, "you're right. "Let's go build something that behaves," like we expect a database to behave with structure and this relational model and like anyone can write simple to use it. It's the simplest API for most people with data, but it behaves like all the best distributed software that we've been using. And so that's how we were born. Our company was founded by ex Googlers who had lived in this space and decided to go and scratch the itch, right? And instead of doing a product that would be locked into a single cloud provider, a database that could be open-source, it could be deployed anywhere. It could cross actual power providers without hiccups and that's been the movement. And it's not just us, there were other vendors in this space and we're all focused on really trying to take the best of the both worlds that came before us. The traditional relational structure, the consistency and asset compliance that we all loved from tools like Oracle, right? And Microsoft who we really enjoyed. But then the developer friendly nature and the simple elastic scalability of distributed software and, that's what we're all seeing. Our company, for example, has only been selling a product for the last two years. We found it five years ago, it took us three years just to rank in the software that we would be happy selling to a customer. We're on what we believe is probably a 10 to 15 year product journey to really go and replace things like Oracle. But we started selling the product two years ago and there is 300% growth year over year. We're probably one of the fastest growing software companies in America, right? And it's all because of the latent demand for this kind of a tool. >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm a big fan of this third wave. Can I see it? If you look at just the macro tailwinds in the industry, billions of edged devices, immersion of all kinds of software. So that means you can't have one database. I always said to someone, in (mumbles) and others. You can't have one database. It's physically impossible. You need data and whatever database fits the scene, wherever you want to have data being stored, but you got to have it real time. You got to have actionable, you have to have software intelligence into how to manage the data. So I think the data control plane or that layer, I think it's the next interoperability wave. Because without data, nothing really works. Machine learning doesn't really work well. You want the most data. I think cybersecurity is a great early use case because they have to leverage data fast. And so you start to see some interesting financial services, cyber, what's your thoughts on this? Can you share from the Cockroach Labs perspective, from your database, you've got a cloud. What are some of the adoption use cases? Who are those leaders? You can name names if you have them, if not, name the use case. What's the Cockroach approach? Who's winning with it? What's it look like? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And you nailed it, right? The data volumes are so large and they're so globally distributed. And then when you start layering again, the data streaming in from devices that then have to be weighed against all of these things. You want a single database. But you need one that will behave in a way that's going to support all of that and actually is going to live at the edge like you're saying. And that's where we have been shining. And so our use cases are, and unfortunate, I can't name any names, but, for example, in retail. We're seeing retailers who have that elasticity and that skill challenge with commerce. And what they're using us for is then, we're in all of the locations where they do business, right? And so we're able to have data locality associated with the businesses and the purchases in those countries. And however, only have single apps that actually bridge across all of those environments. And with the distributed nature, we were able to scale up and scale down truly elastically, right? Because we spread out the data across the nodes automatically. And, what we see there is, you know, retailers do you have up and down moments? Can you talk about people who can leverage the financial structure of the cloud in a really thoughtful way? Retail is a shining example of that. I remember having customers that had 64 times the amount of traffic on cyber Monday that they had on the average day. In the old data center world, that's what you bought for. That was horrendous. In a cloud environment, still horrendous, even public cloud providers. If you're having to go and change your app to ramp every time, that's a problem with something like a distributed database. and with containerization, you could scale much more quickly and scale down much more. That's a big one for streaming media, is another one. Same thing with data locality in each of these countries, you think about it, somebody like Netflix or Hulu, right? They have shows that are unique to specific countries, right? They haven't have that user behavior, all that user data. You know data sovereignty, you know, what you watch on Netflix, there's some very rich personal data. And we all know how that metadata has been used against people. Or so it's no surprise that you now have countries that I know there's going to be regulation around where that data can live and how it can. And so once again, something like Cockroach where you can have that global distribution, but take a locality, or we can lock data to certain nodes in certain locations. That's a big one. >> There's no doubt in my mind. I think there's such a big topic. We probably do more interviews just on the COVID-19 data problem that they have. The impact of getting this right, is a nerd problem today. But it is a technology solution for society globally in the future. Zero doubt in my mind on that. So, Peter, I want you to get the last word and to give a plugin to the developers that are watching out there about Cockroach. Why should they engage with you guys? What can you offer? Is there anything new you want to share about the company to the audience here at DockerCon 2020? Take us home in the next segment. >> Thank you, John. I'll keep the sales pitch to a minimum. I'm a former developer myself. I don't like being sold, so I appreciate it. But we believe we're building, what is the right database for the coming wave of cognitive applications. And specifically we've built what we believe is the ideal database for distributed applications and for containerized applications. So I would strongly encourage you to try it. It is open-source. It is truly cloud native. We have free education, so you can try it yourself. And once you get into it, it is traditional SQL that behaves like Postgres and other tools that you've already known of. And so it should be very familiar, you know, if you've come up through any of these other spaces will be very natural. Postgres compatible integrates with a number of ORM. So as a developer, just plugged right into the tools you use and we're on a rapid journey. We believe we can replace that first generation of technology built by the Oracles of the world. And we're committed to doing it. We're committed to spending the next five to 10 years in hard engineering to build that most powerful database to solve this problem. >> Well, thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome insight and historical perspective. get it out of experience. We believe and we want to share the audience in this time of crisis, more than ever to focus on critical nature of operations, because coming out of this, it is going to be a whole new reality. And I think the best tech will win the day and people will be building new things to grow, whether it's for profit or for societal benefit. The impact of what we do in the next year or two will determine a big trajectory and new technology, new approaches that are dealing with the realities of infrastructure, scale, working at home , sheltering in place to coming back to the hybrid world. We're coming virtualized, Peter. We've been virtualized, the media, the lifestyle, not just virtualization in the networking sense, but, fun times it was going to be challenging. So thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much, John. >> Okay, we're here for DockerCon 20 virtual conferences, the CUBE Virtual Segment. I want to thank you for watching. Stay with me. We've got stream all day today and check out the sessions. Jump in, it's going to be on demand. There's a lot of videos it's going to live on and thanks for watching and stay with us for more coverage and analysis. Here at DockerCon 20, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching >> Narrator: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is the CUBE conversation.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCube. Covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Yeah, welcome back to theCube's coverage here in New York City for the first ever inaugural multicloud conference called Escape 2019, escape, we're in New York, we're not escaping from New York, we're escaping from the cloud. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, the custodian/founders of Cockroach Database. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Congratulations on your new role, new gig. Been there for a while? >> Yeah it's been a while since I've seen you, John, I've jumped out of the data space and into Kubernetes, and so, yeah, I landed at Cockroach Labs about a year ago. And having fun. >> It's interesting, the game is still the same, data is still the same as a value proposition, but software. >> Yeah. >> Data is now code, data is looking, interacting with software, data control planes, data layers, data lakes. All this is an evolution of stuff we were talking about back in the open source days at Hortonworks. The data is in motion, data in flight, data at rest, data is continuing to be critical in automation, security, every single app. >> Yeah, it's at the center of the big battle right now, right, there's this like... I just sense there's a larger battle going on for the platform right now, and the platform is being battled out by these large public cloud providers, and it's who can get compute, who can get actually, you know, people, residents in their cloud. Data has always been the centerpiece of that. Data is gravity, if it was on, before it was on-premise, so the battle was in-house at all these people and now it's like how do we get this stuff to move over. >> Yeah, we were talking before you came on camera, it helps we talk online a lot, and have a lot of connected friends in the cloud native space, but now that Cloud 2.0 has arrived, where it's enterprise hybrid, people are starting to get excited about that, you're seeing the re-platformization or refactoring or whatever word you want to use, a modern enterprise architecture, that has the best of cloud native, has the best of what the enterprise used to do with comput-- like mini-computers, whatnot, now packaged up an operating model. This modernization trend is hitting everything, note, developers, security, this is kind of where you're playing right now. Look what Google's done with Spanner database and where that's all come from in these kinds of large-scale data problems. Modernization's here, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, I know this is modernization, but it's stuff we've been doing for a long time. It's like, you know, I was talking to Steve Mulaney earlier, Steve's brilliant, right, and Steve's talking about 1992 we saw this transition to kind of client server. I've never seen anything like this trans... This transition and this modernization is much bigger than any of the other trends that we've been through. Back when we were talking before it was the Hadoop game, and we were talking modern data architecture, how do we actually transform the way we thought about data from these kind of single stovepipes of data into larger data lakes and this sort of thing. That was the beginning. What we're seeing this time though is a massive transformation up and down the stack of which data is one huge, massive piece of that. And as we know, man, data has gravity and it's at the center of this battle again. >> What's your definition of multicloud? We're at the first ever multicloud conference, what is multicloud? >> You know I get asked this a fair amount, so as I was looking for speakers it was like, "Well, what do you mean, a multicloud conference, what does that even mean?" There's a lot of people, multicloud unbelievers. I think we already live in a multicloud world. I think hybrid cloud is just multicloud. I talked to a lot of people through the CFP process for the conference. I had guys who were running edge computing platforms saying, "Talk to me about this", I'm like, "Well, if you look at it, it's just servers, they're just servers that are everywhere" and actually, how do we actually start to attach all this stuff. It's all multicloud, you know what is the cloud but a bunch of different servers that somebody else owns? You may own them, you may not. The challenge is going to be how do we tie all that together? >> Computer history has proven, if anything, heterogeneous environments, multi-vendor. You can go back and talk about, the comment about the client server, I mean, that was a real threat to the mainframe. Internetworking completely changed the game. At that time PCs were exploding in growth, and multi-vendor was a big buzzword. And that was the reality, you had to compete and service multiple vendors in an environment. >> Yeah, and-- >> Multiple cloud is just multiple vendors. >> John, it's called the multicloud conference, and you know my friend Joseph Jacks, I mean Joseph and I have a lot of conversations about things, you know, and he's brilliant in terms of how he thinks about commercial open source and how these things are, and you know I really played around with changing the name of this to the open and independent cloud conference, because that's really what this is about, it's about how do we have a conversation, in the open, about how we open up the cloud? I just thought, I was a little frustrated with some of the conferences I went to because, I think people are talking about this, but it's not lip service, it's just difficult to talk about it in a broader sense. >> Well, I'm really glad you did this because I've been calling multicloud bullshit on theCube for over a year, Stu and I have debates about this, and you know, putting-- >> I watched. >> Okay, of course, but people who know what I mean know that I believe that multicloud reality of "I have Amazon, I got Azure, I mean, hell, if you upgrade Office 365, you have Azure, so that's another cloud. So yes, people have multiple clouds in their environment, but the foundational work is being done now, you guys are doing it, and that's what I was getting at. There's no multiclouding going on, meaning sense of the seamless workload, what HashiCorp is doing, so this is the foundational, what you guys are getting at, in my mind, at least from my perspective, is a foundational conversation around what is the foundation of multicloud look like. >> And John, there is a technical equation here. I think a lot of people will argue the technical merits of what is multicloud, is it even possible to combine networking and security and all, those are really difficult problems to solve. At Cockroach Labs, to solve the database problem, to solve the data problem, to actually have, you know I could spin up a node at Cockroach on this laptop that's sitting next to you and have that participate in a database that spans multiple clouds, that's awesome. But there's a whole other side of this conversation, John, around what does it mean for my skills in my organization, what does it mean for the financial side of things, the legal, and so I think we're all dealing with a lot of these multicloud concepts, we're just not addressing them yet, and so, it's complex. >> Well, first of all, it's fun too, I mean it's complex, but innovation is complex. But here's the thing, Dave and I were joking around Cloud 2.0 and we picked that term, talking about Cloud 2.0, mainly because I remember during Web 2.0, it was just, everyone was just, "What is Web"..., and to create such a debate, so to goof on Web 2.0 we said Cloud 2.0, but what we mean is that it's changing, right? I'll give you an example, I mean to me Cloud 2.0 or multicloud is having a fully horizontal scalable infrastructure, that on-demand, elastic resource with domain specialty application development that takes advantage of data and machine learning for domain-specific context. And then having an addressable data layer on top of that. That to me is multicloud. >> And being able to service your customers no matter where they are. And unfortunately the public copywriters don't have full coverage across the whole planet so we inherently live in this multicloud world. If you wanted to pull an application today, I'm sorry but the world is your audience, there's no segmenting your app to just New York, right? And so how you actually service customers when they're coming at you from all over the planet. It's another challenge that we have. Fortunately I want to add to your Cloud Two conversation, I'm sorry the Cloud 2.0 conversation, that it is a world of hybrid and multi and multi region and single region and it's the evolution between these different kind of flavors of this situation, I feel is the emerging trend that's happening and we're-- >> Well categories are changing, network management becomes observability, configuration management becomes automation, the old database becomes a different kind of database for you, data protection is cyber protection. There's redefining moments here where white spaces are becoming larger categories. I mean, look at observability, probably going public, getting bought. >> John, look at what Google did over the past, like, 10, 12 years and look at the startups that are now out there that are kind of doing this really innovative stuff. We have LightStep here, you know Cockroach is another great example, what the Upbound team is doing, so people have been through this. From a data point of view we couldn't agree more. I can spin up an instance of RDS, Postgres and it's going to be a single instance, it's going to live in one region and that's going to service one bit of a cloud in one corner of the world. The cloud, and this massive distribution of stuff, it changed, you have to inherently start over when you're building these technologies, and that's why the CNCF has come about, right, is there's a fundamentally different approach-- >> CNCF, I love those guys and we're going to go to do CubeCon, but one of the things that I was talking with hashCode co-founder earlier today, he was talking about workflows. I was talking about workloads, and so I think the conversation is still technical and geeky but if you just abstract out all of the nerd talk and geek talk and say, "What's the workflow and what's the workload?", you go, okay, no other buzzwords should be talked. You've got to go onstage, so you've got to go. Jim Walker, Vice President of Product Marketing, Cockroach Labs, good friend of theCube, and our producer of this show, Mike Harold and the team, Escape/19, first inaugural multicloud conference. Be back with more after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, wonderful cloud community, and welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent. My name is Savannah Peterson, and I am very excited to be joined by two brilliant gentlemen today. Please welcome Keith from Cockroach Labs and Jeff from AMD. Thank you both for tuning in, coming in from the East coast. How you doing? >> Not too bad. A little cold, but we're going >> Doing great. >> Love that and I love the enthusiasm Keith, you're definitely bringing the heat in the green room before we got on, so I'm going to open this up with you. Cockroach Labs puts out a pretty infamous and useful cloud report each year. Can you tell us a little bit about that, the approach and the data that you report on? >> Yeah, so Cockroach Labs builds a distributed SQL database that we are able to run across multiple cloud regions, multiple sites, multiple data centers. Frequently is running a hybrid kind of a use case and it's important for our customers to be able to compare the performance of configurations when they don't have exact the same hardware available to them in every single location. So since we were already doing this internally for ourselves and for our customers, we decided to turn it into something we shared with the greater community. And it's been a great experience for us. A lot of people come and ask us every year, "Hey, when's the new cloud report coming out?" Because they want to read it. It's been a great win for us. >> How many different things are you looking at? I mean, when you're comparing configurations I imagine there's a lot of different complex variables there. Just how much are you taking into consideration when you publish this report? >> Yeah, so we look at micro benchmarks around CPU network and storage. And then our flagship benchmark is we use the database itself where we have the most expertise to create a real world benchmark on across all of these instances. This year I think we tested over 150 different discrete configurations and it's a bit of a labor of love for us because we then not only do we consume it for best practices for our own as a service offering, but we share it with our customers. We use it internally to make all kinds of different decisions. >> Yeah, 150 different comparisons is not a small number. And Jeff, I know that AMD's position in this cloud report is really important. Where do you fit into all of this and what does it mean for you? >> Right, so what it means for us and for our customers is, there's a good breath and depth of testing that has gone of from the lab. And you look at this cloud report and it helps them traverse this landscape of, why to go on instance A, B, or C on certain workloads. And it really is very meaningful because they now have the real data across all those dimensional kinds of tests. So this definitely helps not only the customers but also for ourselves. So we can now look at ourselves more independently for feedback loops and say, "Hey, here's where we're doing well, here's where we're doing okay, here's where we need to improve on." All those things are important for us. So love seeing the lab present out such a great report as I've seen, very comprehensive, so I very much appreciate it. >> And specifically I love that you're both fans of each other, obviously, specifically digging in there, what does it mean that AMD had the best performance ratio tested on AWS instances? >> Yeah, so when we're looking at instances, we're not just looking at how fast something is, we're also looking at how much it costs to get that level of performance because CockroachDB as a distributed system has the opportunity to scale up and out. And so rather than necessarily wanting the fastest single instance performance, which is an important metric for certain use cases for sure, the comparison of price for performance when you can add notes to get more performance can be a much more economical thing for a lot of our customers. And so AMD has had a great showing on the price performance ratio for I think two years now. And it makes it hard to justify other instance types in a lot of circumstances simply because it's cheaper to get, for each transaction per second that you need, it's cheaper to use an AMD instance than it would be a competitive instance from another vendor. >> I mean, everyone I think no matter their sector wants to do things faster and cheaper and you're able to achieve both, it's easy to see why it's a choice that many folks would like to make. So what do these results mean for CIOs and CTOs? I can imagine there's a lot of value here in the FinOps world. >> Yep. Oh, I'll start a few of 'em. So from the C-suite when they're really looking at the problem statement, think of it as less granular, but higher level. So they're really looking at CapEx, OpEx, sustainability, security, sort of ecosystem on there. And then as Keith pointed out, hey, there's this TCO conversation that has to happen. In other words, as they're moving from sort of this lift and shift from their on-prem into the cloud, what does that mean to them for spend? So now if you're looking at the consistency around sort of the performance and the total cost of running this to their insights, to the conclusions, less time, more money in their pocket and maybe a reduction for their own customers so they can provide better for the customer side. What you're actually seeing is that's the challenge that they're facing in that landscape that they're driving towards that they need guidance and help with towards that. And we find AMD lends itself well to that scale out architecture that connects so well with how cloud microservices are run today. >> It's not surprising to hear that. Keith, what other tips and tricks do you have for CIOs and CTOs trying to reduce FinOps and continue to excel as they're building out? >> Yeah, so there were a couple of other insights that we learned this year. One of those two insights that I'd like to mention is that it's not always obvious what size and shape infrastructure you need to acquire to maximize your cost productions, right? So we found that smaller instance types were by and large had a better TCO than larger instances even across the exact same configurations, we kept everything else the same. Smaller instances had a better price performance ratio than the larger instances. The other thing that we discovered this year that was really interesting, we did a bit of a cost analysis on networking. And largely because we're distributed system, we can scan span across availability zones, we can span across regions, right? And one of the things we discovered this year is the amount of cost for transferring data between availability zones and the amount of cost for transferring data across regions at least in the United States was the same. So you could potentially get more resiliency by spanning your infrastructure across regions, then you would necessarily just spanning across availability zones. So you could be across multiple regions at the same cost as you were across availability zones, which for something like CockroachDB, we were designed to support those workloads is a really big and important thing for us. Now you have to be very particular about where you're purchasing your infrastructure and where those regions are. Because those data transfer rates change depending on what the source and the target is. But at least within the United States, we found that there was a strong correlation to being more survivable if you were in a multi-region deployment and the cost stayed pretty flat. >> That's interesting. So it's interesting to see what the correlation is between things and when you think there may be relationship between variables and when there maybe isn't. So on that note, since it seems like you're both always learning, I can imagine, what are you excited to test or learn about looking forward? Jeff, let's start with you actually. >> For sort of future testing. One of those things is certainly those more scale out sort of workloads with respect to showing scale. Meaning as I'm increasing the working set, as I'm increasing the number of connections, variability is another big thing of showing that minimization from run to run because performance is interesting but consistency is better. And as the lower side is from the instant sizes as I was talking about earlier, a (indistinct) architecture lends itself so well to it because they have the local caching and the CCDs that you can now put a number of vCPUs that will benefit from that delivery of the local caching and drive better performance at the lower side for that scale out sort of architecture, which is so consistent with the microservices. So I would be looking for more of those dimensional testings variability across a variety of workloads that you can go from memory intense workloads to database persistence store as well as a blend of the two, Kafka, et cetera. So there's a great breath and depth of testing that I am looking for and to more connect with sort of the CTOs and CIOs, the higher level that really show them that that CapEx, OpEx, sustainability and provide a bit more around that side of it because those are are the big things that they're focused on as well as security, the fact that based on working sets et cetera, AMD has the ability with confidential compute around those kind of offerings that can start to drive to those outcomes and help from what the CTOs and CIOs are looking for from compliance as well. So set them out (indistinct). >> So you're excited about a lot. No, that's great. That means you're very excited about the future. >> It's a journey that continues as Keith knows, there's always something new. >> Yeah, absolutely. What about you Keith? What is the most excited on the journey? >> Yeah, there are a couple of things I'd like to see us test next year. One of those is to test a multi-region CockroachDB config. We have a lot of customers running in that configuration and production but we haven't scaled that testing up to the same breadth that we we do with our single region testing which is what we've based the cloud report on for the past four years. The other thing that I'd really love to see us do,, I'm a Kubernetes SME, at least that's kind of my technical background. I would love to see us get to a spot where we're comparing the performance of raw EC2 instances to using that same infrastructure running CockroachDB via EKS and kind of see what the differences are there. The vast majority of CockroachDB customers are running at least a portion of their infrastructure in Kubernetes. So I feel like that would be a real great value add to the report for the next time that we go around but go about publishing it. >> If I don't mind adding to that just to volley it back for a moment. And also as I was saying about the ScaleOut and how it leverages our AMD architecture so well with EKS specifically around the spin up, spin down. So you think of a whole development life cycle. As they grow and shrink the resources over time, time of those spin ups to spin downs are expensive. So that has to be as reduced as much as possible. And I think they'll see a lot of benefits in AMD's architecture with EKS running on it as well. >> The future is bright. There's a lot of hype about many of the technologies that you both just mentioned, so I'm very curious to see what the next cloud report looks like. Thank you Keith, and the team for the labor of love that you put into that every year. And Jeff, I hope that you continue to be as well positioned as everyone's innovation journey continues. Keith and Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. As you know, this is a continuation of our coverage of AWS re:Invent here on theCUBE. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our next fascinating segment. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Once a staid and boring business dominated by IBM, Oracle, and at the time newcomer Microsoft, along with a handful of wannabes, the database business has exploded in the past decade and has become a staple of financial excellence, customer experience, analytic advantage, competitive strategy, growth initiatives, visualizations, not to mention compliance, security, privacy and dozens of other important use cases and initiatives. And on the vendor's side of the house, we've seen the rapid ascendancy of cloud databases. Most notably from Snowflake, whose massive raises leading up to its IPO in late 2020 sparked a spate of interest and VC investment in the separation of compute and storage and all that elastic resource stuff in the cloud. The company joined AWS, Azure and Google to popularize cloud databases, which have become a linchpin of competitive strategies for technology suppliers. And if I get you to put your data in my database and in my cloud, and I keep innovating, I'm going to build a moat and achieve a hugely attractive lifetime customer value in a really amazing marginal economics dynamic that is going to fund my future. And I'll be able to sell other adjacent services, not just compute and storage, but machine learning and inference and training and all kinds of stuff, dozens of lucrative cloud offerings. Meanwhile, the database leader, Oracle has invested massive amounts of money to maintain its lead. It's building on its position as the king of mission critical workloads and making typical Oracle like claims against the competition. Most were recently just yesterday with another announcement around MySQL HeatWave. An extension of MySQL that is compatible with on-premises MySQLs and is setting new standards in price performance. We're seeing a dramatic divergence in strategies across the database spectrum. On the far left, we see Amazon with more than a dozen database offerings each with its own API and primitives. AWS is taking a right tool for the right job approach, often building on open source platforms and creating services that it offers to customers to solve very specific problems for developers. And on the other side of the line, we see Oracle, which is taking the Swiss Army Knife approach, converging database functionality, enabling analytic and transactional workloads to run in the same data store, eliminating the need to ETL, at the same time adding capabilities into its platform like automation and machine learning. Welcome to this database Power Panel. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm so excited to bring together some of the most respected industry analyst in the community. Today we're going to assess what's happening in the market. We're going to dig into the competitive landscape and explore the future of database and database platforms and decode what it means to customers. Let me take a moment to welcome our guest analyst today. Matt Kimball is a vice president and principal analysts at Moor Insights and Strategy, Matt. He knows products, he knows industry, he's got real world IT expertise, and he's got all the angles 25 plus years of experience in all kinds of great background. Matt, welcome. Thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Holgar Mueller, friend of theCUBE, vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research in depth knowledge on applications, application development, knows developers. He's worked at SAP and Oracle. And then Bob Evans is Chief Content Officer and co-founder of the Acceleration Economy, founder and principle of Cloud Wars. Covers all kinds of industry topics and great insights. He's got awesome videos, these three minute hits. If you haven't seen 'em, checking them out, knows cloud companies, his Cloud Wars minutes are fantastic. And then of course, Marc Staimer is the founder of Dragon Slayer Research. A frequent contributor and guest analyst at Wikibon. He's got a wide ranging knowledge across IT products, knows technology really well, can go deep. And then of course, Ron Westfall, Senior Analyst and Director Research Director at Futurum Research, great all around product trends knowledge. Can take, you know, technical dives and really understands competitive angles, knows Redshift, Snowflake, and many others. Gents, thanks so much for taking the time to join us in theCube today. It's great to have you on, good to see you. >> Good to be here, thanks for having us. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, let's start with an around the horn and briefly, if each of you would describe, you know, anything I missed in your areas of expertise and then you answer the following question, how would you describe the state of the database, state of platform market today? Matt Kimball, please start. >> Oh, I hate going first, but that it's okay. How would I describe the world today? I would just in one sentence, I would say, I'm glad I'm not in IT anymore, right? So, you know, it is a complex and dangerous world out there. And I don't envy IT folks I'd have to support, you know, these modernization and transformation efforts that are going on within the enterprise. It used to be, you mentioned it, Dave, you would argue about IBM versus Oracle versus this newcomer in the database space called Microsoft. And don't forget Sybase back in the day, but you know, now it's not just, which SQL vendor am I going to go with? It's all of these different, divergent data types that have to be taken, they have to be merged together, synthesized. And somehow I have to do that cleanly and use this to drive strategic decisions for my business. That is not easy. So, you know, you have to look at it from the perspective of the business user. It's great for them because as a DevOps person, or as an analyst, I have so much flexibility and I have this thing called the cloud now where I can go get services immediately. As an IT person or a DBA, I am calling up prevention hotlines 24 hours a day, because I don't know how I'm going to be able to support the business. And as an Oracle or as an Oracle or a Microsoft or some of the cloud providers and cloud databases out there, I'm licking my chops because, you know, my market is expanding and expanding every day. >> Great, thank you for that, Matt. Holgar, how do you see the world these days? You always have a good perspective on things, share with us. >> Well, I think it's the best time to be in IT, I'm not sure what Matt is talking about. (laughing) It's easier than ever, right? The direction is going to cloud. Kubernetes has won, Google has the best AI for now, right? So things are easier than ever before. You made commitments for five plus years on hardware, networking and so on premise, and I got gray hair about worrying it was the wrong decision. No, just kidding. But you kind of both sides, just to be controversial, make it interesting, right. So yeah, no, I think the interesting thing specifically with databases, right? We have this big suite versus best of breed, right? Obviously innovation, like you mentioned with Snowflake and others happening in the cloud, the cloud vendors server, where to save of their databases. And then we have one of the few survivors of the old guard as Evans likes to call them is Oracle who's doing well, both their traditional database. And now, which is really interesting, remarkable from that because Oracle it was always the power of one, have one database, add more to it, make it what I call the universal database. And now this new HeatWave offering is coming and MySQL open source side. So they're getting the second (indistinct) right? So it's interesting that older players, traditional players who still are in the market are diversifying their offerings. Something we don't see so much from the traditional tools from Oracle on the Microsoft side or the IBM side these days. >> Great, thank you Holgar. Bob Evans, you've covered this business for a while. You've worked at, you know, a number of different outlets and companies and you cover the competition, how do you see things? >> Dave, you know, the other angle to look at this from is from the customer side, right? You got now CEOs who are any sort of business across all sorts of industries, and they understand that their future success is going to be dependent on their ability to become a digital company, to understand data, to use it the right way. So as you outline Dave, I think in your intro there, it is a fantastic time to be in the database business. And I think we've got a lot of new buyers and influencers coming in. They don't know all this history about IBM and Microsoft and Oracle and you know, whoever else. So I think they're going to take a long, hard look, Dave, at some of these results and who is able to help these companies not serve up the best technology, but who's going to be able to help their business move into the digital future. So it's a fascinating time now from every perspective. >> Great points, Bob. I mean, digital transformation has gone from buzzword to imperative. Mr. Staimer, how do you see things? >> I see things a little bit differently than my peers here in that I see the database market being segmented. There's all the different kinds of databases that people are looking at for different kinds of data, and then there is databases in the cloud. And so database as cloud service, I view very differently than databases because the traditional way of implementing a database is changing and it's changing rapidly. So one of the premises that you stated earlier on was that you viewed Oracle as a database company. I don't view Oracle as a database company anymore. I view Oracle as a cloud company that happens to have a significant expertise and specialty in databases, and they still sell database software in the traditional way, but ultimately they're a cloud company. So database cloud services from my point of view is a very distinct market from databases. >> Okay, well, you gave us some good meat on the bone to talk about that. Last but not least-- >> Dave did Marc, just say Oracle's a cloud company? >> Yeah. (laughing) Take away the database, it would be interesting to have that discussion, but let's let Ron jump in here. Ron, give us your take. >> That's a great segue. I think it's truly the era of the cloud database, that's something that's rising. And the key trends that come with it include for example, elastic scaling. That is the ability to scale on demand, to right size workloads according to customer requirements. And also I think it's going to increase the prioritization for high availability. That is the player who can provide the highest availability is going to have, I think, a great deal of success in this emerging market. And also I anticipate that there will be more consolidation across platforms in order to enable cost savings for customers, and that's something that's always going to be important. And I think we'll see more of that over the horizon. And then finally security, security will be more important than ever. We've seen a spike (indistinct), we certainly have seen geopolitical originated cybersecurity concerns. And as a result, I see database security becoming all the more important. >> Great, thank you. Okay, let me share some data with you guys. I'm going to throw this at you and see what you think. We have this awesome data partner called Enterprise Technology Research, ETR. They do these quarterly surveys and each period with dozens of industry segments, they track clients spending, customer spending. And this is the database, data warehouse sector okay so it's taxonomy, so it's not perfect, but it's a big kind of chunk. They essentially ask customers within a category and buy a specific vendor, you're spending more or less on the platform? And then they subtract the lesses from the mores and they derive a metric called net score. It's like NPS, it's a measure of spending velocity. It's more complicated and granular than that, but that's the basis and that's the vertical axis. The horizontal axis is what they call market share, it's not like IDC market share, it's just pervasiveness in the data set. And so there are a couple of things that stand out here and that we can use as reference point. The first is the momentum of Snowflake. They've been off the charts for many, many, for over two years now, anything above that dotted red line, that 40%, is considered by ETR to be highly elevated and Snowflake's even way above that. And I think it's probably not sustainable. We're going to see in the next April survey, next month from those guys, when it comes out. And then you see AWS and Microsoft, they're really pervasive on the horizontal axis and highly elevated, Google falls behind them. And then you got a number of well funded players. You got Cockroach Labs, Mongo, Redis, MariaDB, which of course is a fork on MySQL started almost as protest at Oracle when they acquired Sun and they got MySQL and you can see the number of others. Now Oracle who's the leading database player, despite what Marc Staimer says, we know, (laughs) and they're a cloud player (laughing) who happens to be a leading database player. They dominate in the mission critical space, we know that they're the king of that sector, but you can see here that they're kind of legacy, right? They've been around a long time, they get a big install base. So they don't have the spending momentum on the vertical axis. Now remember this is, just really this doesn't capture spending levels, so that understates Oracle but nonetheless. So it's not a complete picture like SAP for instance is not in here, no Hana. I think people are actually buying it, but it doesn't show up here, (laughs) but it does give an indication of momentum and presence. So Bob Evans, I'm going to start with you. You've commented on many of these companies, you know, what does this data tell you? >> Yeah, you know, Dave, I think all these compilations of things like that are interesting, and that folks at ETR do some good work, but I think as you said, it's a snapshot sort of a two-dimensional thing of a rapidly changing, three dimensional world. You know, the incidents at which some of these companies are mentioned versus the volume that happens. I think it's, you know, with Oracle and I'm not going to declare my religious affiliation, either as cloud company or database company, you know, they're all of those things and more, and I think some of our old language of how we classify companies is just not relevant anymore. But I want to ask too something in here, the autonomous database from Oracle, nobody else has done that. So either Oracle is crazy, they've tried out a technology that nobody other than them is interested in, or they're onto something that nobody else can match. So to me, Dave, within Oracle, trying to identify how they're doing there, I would watch autonomous database growth too, because right, it's either going to be a big plan and it breaks through, or it's going to be caught behind. And the Snowflake phenomenon as you mentioned, that is a rare, rare bird who comes up and can grow 100% at a billion dollar revenue level like that. So now they've had a chance to come in, scare the crap out of everybody, rock the market with something totally new, the data cloud. Will the bigger companies be able to catch up and offer a compelling alternative, or is Snowflake going to continue to be this outlier. It's a fascinating time. >> Really, interesting points there. Holgar, I want to ask you, I mean, I've talked to certainly I'm sure you guys have too, the founders of Snowflake that came out of Oracle and they actually, they don't apologize. They say, "Hey, we not going to do all that complicated stuff that Oracle does, we were trying to keep it real simple." But at the same time, you know, they don't do sophisticated workload management. They don't do complex joints. They're kind of relying on the ecosystems. So when you look at the data like this and the various momentums, and we talked about the diverging strategies, what does this say to you? >> Well, it is a great point. And I think Snowflake is an example how the cloud can turbo charge a well understood concept in this case, the data warehouse, right? You move that and you find steroids and you see like for some players who've been big in data warehouse, like Sentara Data, as an example, here in San Diego, what could have been for them right in that part. The interesting thing, the problem though is the cloud hides a lot of complexity too, which you can scale really well as you attract lots of customers to go there. And you don't have to build things like what Bob said, right? One of the fascinating things, right, nobody's answering Oracle on the autonomous database. I don't think is that they cannot, they just have different priorities or the database is not such a priority. I would dare to say that it's for IBM and Microsoft right now at the moment. And the cloud vendors, you just hide that right through scripts and through scale because you support thousands of customers and you can deal with a little more complexity, right? It's not against them. Whereas if you have to run it yourself, very different story, right? You want to have the autonomous parts, you want to have the powerful tools to do things. >> Thank you. And so Matt, I want to go to you, you've set up front, you know, it's just complicated if you're in IT, it's a complicated situation and you've been on the customer side. And if you're a buyer, it's obviously, it's like Holgar said, "Cloud's supposed to make this stuff easier, but the simpler it gets the more complicated gets." So where do you place your bets? Or I guess more importantly, how do you decide where to place your bets? >> Yeah, it's a good question. And to what Bob and Holgar said, you know, the around autonomous database, I think, you know, part of, as I, you know, play kind of armchair psychologist, if you will, corporate psychologists, I look at what Oracle is doing and, you know, databases where they've made their mark and it's kind of, that's their strong position, right? So it makes sense if you're making an entry into this cloud and you really want to kind of build momentum, you go with what you're good at, right? So that's kind of the strength of Oracle. Let's put a lot of focus on that. They do a lot more than database, don't get me wrong, but you know, I'm going to short my strength and then kind of pivot from there. With regards to, you know, what IT looks at and what I would look at you know as an IT director or somebody who is, you know, trying to consume services from these different cloud providers. First and foremost, I go with what I know, right? Let's not forget IT is a conservative group. And when we look at, you know, all the different permutations of database types out there, SQL, NoSQL, all the different types of NoSQL, those are largely being deployed by business users that are looking for agility or businesses that are looking for agility. You know, the reason why MongoDB is so popular is because of DevOps, right? It's a great platform to develop on and that's where it kind of gained its traction. But as an IT person, I want to go with what I know, where my muscle memory is, and that's my first position. And so as I evaluate different cloud service providers and cloud databases, I look for, you know, what I know and what I've invested in and where my muscle memory is. Is there enough there and do I have enough belief that that company or that service is going to be able to take me to, you know, where I see my organization in five years from a data management perspective, from a business perspective, are they going to be there? And if they are, then I'm a little bit more willing to make that investment, but it is, you know, if I'm kind of going in this blind or if I'm cloud native, you know, that's where the Snowflakes of the world become very attractive to me. >> Thank you. So Marc, I asked Andy Jackson in theCube one time, you have all these, you know, data stores and different APIs and primitives and you know, very granular, what's the strategy there? And he said, "Hey, that allows us as the market changes, it allows us to be more flexible. If we start building abstractions layers, it's harder for us." I think also it was not a good time to market advantage, but let me ask you, I described earlier on that spectrum from AWS to Oracle. We just saw yesterday, Oracle announced, I think the third major enhancement in like 15 months to MySQL HeatWave, what do you make of that announcement? How do you think it impacts the competitive landscape, particularly as it relates to, you know, converging transaction and analytics, eliminating ELT, I know you have some thoughts on this. >> So let me back up for a second and defend my cloud statement about Oracle for a moment. (laughing) AWS did a great job in developing the cloud market in general and everything in the cloud market. I mean, I give them lots of kudos on that. And a lot of what they did is they took open source software and they rent it to people who use their cloud. So I give 'em lots of credit, they dominate the market. Oracle was late to the cloud market. In fact, they actually poo-pooed it initially, if you look at some of Larry Ellison's statements, they said, "Oh, it's never going to take off." And then they did 180 turn, and they said, "Oh, we're going to embrace the cloud." And they really have, but when you're late to a market, you've got to be compelling. And this ties into the announcement yesterday, but let's deal with this compelling. To be compelling from a user point of view, you got to be twice as fast, offer twice as much functionality, at half the cost. That's generally what compelling is that you're going to capture market share from the leaders who established the market. It's very difficult to capture market share in a new market for yourself. And you're right. I mean, Bob was correct on this and Holgar and Matt in which you look at Oracle, and they did a great job of leveraging their database to move into this market, give 'em lots of kudos for that too. But yesterday they announced, as you said, the third innovation release and the pace is just amazing of what they're doing on these releases on HeatWave that ties together initially MySQL with an integrated builtin analytics engine, so a data warehouse built in. And then they added automation with autopilot, and now they've added machine learning to it, and it's all in the same service. It's not something you can buy and put on your premise unless you buy their cloud customers stuff. But generally it's a cloud offering, so it's compellingly better as far as the integration. You don't buy multiple services, you buy one and it's lower cost than any of the other services, but more importantly, it's faster, which again, give 'em credit for, they have more integration of a product. They can tie things together in a way that nobody else does. There's no additional services, ETL services like Glue and AWS. So from that perspective, they're getting better performance, fewer services, lower cost. Hmm, they're aiming at the compelling side again. So from a customer point of view it's compelling. Matt, you wanted to say something there. >> Yeah, I want to kind of, on what you just said there Marc, and this is something I've found really interesting, you know. The traditional way that you look at software and, you know, purchasing software and IT is, you look at either best of breed solutions and you have to work on the backend to integrate them all and make them all work well. And generally, you know, the big hit against the, you know, we have one integrated offering is that, you lose capability or you lose depth of features, right. And to what you were saying, you know, that's the thing I found interesting about what Oracle is doing is they're building in depth as they kind of, you know, build that service. It's not like you're losing a lot of capabilities, because you're going to one integrated service versus having to use A versus B versus C, and I love that idea. >> You're right. Yeah, not only you're not losing, but you're gaining functionality that you can't get by integrating a lot of these. I mean, I can take Snowflake and integrate it in with machine learning, but I also have to integrate in with a transactional database. So I've got to have connectors between all of this, which means I'm adding time. And what it comes down to at the end of the day is expertise, effort, time, and cost. And so what I see the difference from the Oracle announcements is they're aiming at reducing all of that by increasing performance as well. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but that's what I saw at the announcement yesterday. >> You know, Marc, one thing though Marc, it's funny you say that because I started out saying, you know, I'm glad I'm not 19 anymore. And the reason is because of exactly what you said, it's almost like there's a pseudo level of witchcraft that's required to support the modern data environment right in the enterprise. And I need simpler faster, better. That's what I need, you know, I am no longer wearing pocket protectors. I have turned from, you know, break, fix kind of person, to you know, business consultant. And I need that point and click simplicity, but I can't sacrifice, you know, a depth of features of functionality on the backend as I play that consultancy role. >> So, Ron, I want to bring in Ron, you know, it's funny. So Matt, you mentioned Mongo, I often and say, if Oracle mentions you, you're on the map. We saw them yesterday Ron, (laughing) they hammered RedShifts auto ML, they took swipes at Snowflake, a little bit of BigQuery. What were your thoughts on that? Do you agree with what these guys are saying in terms of HeatWaves capabilities? >> Yes, Dave, I think that's an excellent question. And fundamentally I do agree. And the question is why, and I think it's important to know that all of the Oracle data is backed by the fact that they're using benchmarks. For example, all of the ML and all of the TPC benchmarks, including all the scripts, all the configs and all the detail are posted on GitHub. So anybody can look at these results and they're fully transparent and replicate themselves. If you don't agree with this data, then by all means challenge it. And we have not really seen that in all of the new updates in HeatWave over the last 15 months. And as a result, when it comes to these, you know, fundamentals in looking at the competitive landscape, which I think gives validity to outcomes such as Oracle being able to deliver 4.8 times better price performance than Redshift. As well as for example, 14.4 better price performance than Snowflake, and also 12.9 better price performance than BigQuery. And so that is, you know, looking at the quantitative side of things. But again, I think, you know, to Marc's point and to Matt's point, there are also qualitative aspects that clearly differentiate the Oracle proposition, from my perspective. For example now the MySQL HeatWave ML capabilities are native, they're built in, and they also support things such as completion criteria. And as a result, that enables them to show that hey, when you're using Redshift ML for example, you're having to also use their SageMaker tool and it's running on a meter. And so, you know, nobody really wants to be running on a meter when, you know, executing these incredibly complex tasks. And likewise, when it comes to Snowflake, they have to use a third party capability. They don't have the built in, it's not native. So the user, to the point that he's having to spend more time and it increases complexity to use auto ML capabilities across the Snowflake platform. And also, I think it also applies to other important features such as data sampling, for example, with the HeatWave ML, it's intelligent sampling that's being implemented. Whereas in contrast, we're seeing Redshift using random sampling. And again, Snowflake, you're having to use a third party library in order to achieve the same capabilities. So I think the differentiation is crystal clear. I think it definitely is refreshing. It's showing that this is where true value can be assigned. And if you don't agree with it, by all means challenge the data. >> Yeah, I want to come to the benchmarks in a minute. By the way, you know, the gentleman who's the Oracle's architect, he did a great job on the call yesterday explaining what you have to do. I thought that was quite impressive. But Bob, I know you follow the financials pretty closely and on the earnings call earlier this month, Ellison said that, "We're going to see HeatWave on AWS." And the skeptic in me said, oh, they must not be getting people to come to OCI. And then they, you remember this chart they showed yesterday that showed the growth of HeatWave on OCI. But of course there was no data on there, it was just sort of, you know, lines up and to the right. So what do you guys think of that? (Marc laughs) Does it signal Bob, desperation by Oracle that they can't get traction on OCI, or is it just really a smart tame expansion move? What do you think? >> Yeah, Dave, that's a great question. You know, along the way there, and you know, just inside of that was something that said Ellison said on earnings call that spoke to a different sort of philosophy or mindset, almost Marc, where he said, "We're going to make this multicloud," right? With a lot of their other cloud stuff, if you wanted to use any of Oracle's cloud software, you had to use Oracle's infrastructure, OCI, there was no other way out of it. But this one, but I thought it was a classic Ellison line. He said, "Well, we're making this available on AWS. We're making this available, you know, on Snowflake because we're going after those users. And once they see what can be done here." So he's looking at it, I guess you could say, it's a concession to customers because they want multi-cloud. The other way to look at it, it's a hunting expedition and it's one of those uniquely I think Oracle ways. He said up front, right, he doesn't say, "Well, there's a big market, there's a lot for everybody, we just want on our slice." Said, "No, we are going after Amazon, we're going after Redshift, we're going after Aurora. We're going after these users of Snowflake and so on." And I think it's really fairly refreshing these days to hear somebody say that, because now if I'm a buyer, I can look at that and say, you know, to Marc's point, "Do they measure up, do they crack that threshold ceiling? Or is this just going to be more pain than a few dollars savings is worth?" But you look at those numbers that Ron pointed out and that we all saw in that chart. I've never seen Dave, anything like that. In a substantive market, a new player coming in here, and being able to establish differences that are four, seven, eight, 10, 12 times better than competition. And as new buyers look at that, they're going to say, "What the hell are we doing paying, you know, five times more to get a poor result? What's going on here?" So I think this is going to rattle people and force a harder, closer look at what these alternatives are. >> I wonder if the guy, thank you. Let's just skip ahead of the benchmarks guys, bring up the next slide, let's skip ahead a little bit here, which talks to the benchmarks and the benchmarking if we can. You know, David Floyer, the sort of semiretired, you know, Wikibon analyst said, "Dave, this is going to force Amazon and others, Snowflake," he said, "To rethink actually how they architect databases." And this is kind of a compilation of some of the data that they shared. They went after Redshift mostly, (laughs) but also, you know, as I say, Snowflake, BigQuery. And, like I said, you can always tell which companies are doing well, 'cause Oracle will come after you, but they're on the radar here. (laughing) Holgar should we take this stuff seriously? I mean, or is it, you know, a grain salt? What are your thoughts here? >> I think you have to take it seriously. I mean, that's a great question, great point on that. Because like Ron said, "If there's a flaw in a benchmark, we know this database traditionally, right?" If anybody came up that, everybody will be, "Oh, you put the wrong benchmark, it wasn't audited right, let us do it again," and so on. We don't see this happening, right? So kudos to Oracle to be aggressive, differentiated, and seem to having impeccable benchmarks. But what we really see, I think in my view is that the classic and we can talk about this in 100 years, right? Is the suite versus best of breed, right? And the key question of the suite, because the suite's always slower, right? No matter at which level of the stack, you have the suite, then the best of breed that will come up with something new, use a cloud, put the data warehouse on steroids and so on. The important thing is that you have to assess as a buyer what is the speed of my suite vendor. And that's what you guys mentioned before as well, right? Marc said that and so on, "Like, this is a third release in one year of the HeatWave team, right?" So everybody in the database open source Marc, and there's so many MySQL spinoffs to certain point is put on shine on the speed of (indistinct) team, putting out fundamental changes. And the beauty of that is right, is so inherent to the Oracle value proposition. Larry's vision of building the IBM of the 21st century, right from the Silicon, from the chip all the way across the seven stacks to the click of the user. And that what makes the database what Rob was saying, "Tied to the OCI infrastructure," because designed for that, it runs uniquely better for that, that's why we see the cross connect to Microsoft. HeatWave so it's different, right? Because HeatWave runs on cheap hardware, right? Which is the breadth and butter 886 scale of any cloud provider, right? So Oracle probably needs it to scale OCI in a different category, not the expensive side, but also allow us to do what we said before, the multicloud capability, which ultimately CIOs really want, because data gravity is real, you want to operate where that is. If you have a fast, innovative offering, which gives you more functionality and the R and D speed is really impressive for the space, puts away bad results, then it's a good bet to look at. >> Yeah, so you're saying, that we versus best of breed. I just want to sort of play back then Marc a comment. That suite versus best of breed, there's always been that trade off. If I understand you Holgar you're saying that somehow Oracle has magically cut through that trade off and they're giving you the best of both. >> It's the developing velocity, right? The provision of important features, which matter to buyers of the suite vendor, eclipses the best of breed vendor, then the best of breed vendor is in the hell of a potential job. >> Yeah, go ahead Marc. >> Yeah and I want to add on what Holgar just said there. I mean the worst job in the data center is data movement, moving the data sucks. I don't care who you are, nobody likes it. You never get any kudos for doing it well, and you always get the ah craps, when things go wrong. So it's in- >> In the data center Marc all the time across data centers, across cloud. That's where the bleeding comes. >> It's right, you get beat up all the time. So nobody likes to move data, ever. So what you're looking at with what they announce with HeatWave and what I love about HeatWave is it doesn't matter when you started with it, you get all the additional features they announce it's part of the service, all the time. But they don't have to move any of the data. You want to analyze the data that's in your transactional, MySQL database, it's there. You want to do machine learning models, it's there, there's no data movement. The data movement is the key thing, and they just eliminate that, in so many ways. And the other thing I wanted to talk about is on the benchmarks. As great as those benchmarks are, they're really conservative 'cause they're underestimating the cost of that data movement. The ETLs, the other services, everything's left out. It's just comparing HeatWave, MySQL cloud service with HeatWave versus Redshift, not Redshift and Aurora and Glue, Redshift and Redshift ML and SageMaker, it's just Redshift. >> Yeah, so what you're saying is what Oracle's doing is saying, "Okay, we're going to run MySQL HeatWave benchmarks on analytics against Redshift, and then we're going to run 'em in transaction against Aurora." >> Right. >> But if you really had to look at what you would have to do with the ETL, you'd have to buy two different data stores and all the infrastructure around that, and that goes away so. >> Due to the nature of the competition, they're running narrow best of breed benchmarks. There is no suite level benchmark (Dave laughs) because they created something new. >> Well that's you're the earlier point they're beating best of breed with a suite. So that's, I guess to Floyer's earlier point, "That's going to shake things up." But I want to come back to Bob Evans, 'cause I want to tap your Cloud Wars mojo before we wrap. And line up the horses, you got AWS, you got Microsoft, Google and Oracle. Now they all own their own cloud. Snowflake, Mongo, Couchbase, Redis, Cockroach by the way they're all doing very well. They run in the cloud as do many others. I think you guys all saw the Andreessen, you know, commentary from Sarah Wang and company, to talk about the cost of goods sold impact of cloud. So owning your own cloud has to be an advantage because other guys like Snowflake have to pay cloud vendors and negotiate down versus having the whole enchilada, Safra Catz's dream. Bob, how do you think this is going to impact the market long term? >> Well, Dave, that's a great question about, you know, how this is all going to play out. If I could mention three things, one, Frank Slootman has done a fantastic job with Snowflake. Really good company before he got there, but since he's been there, the growth mindset, the discipline, the rigor and the phenomenon of what Snowflake has done has forced all these bigger companies to really accelerate what they're doing. And again, it's an example of how this intense competition makes all the different cloud vendors better and it provides enormous value to customers. Second thing I wanted to mention here was look at the Adam Selipsky effect at AWS, took over in the middle of May, and in Q2, Q3, Q4, AWS's growth rate accelerated. And in each of those three quotas, they grew faster than Microsoft's cloud, which has not happened in two or three years, so they're closing the gap on Microsoft. The third thing, Dave, in this, you know, incredibly intense competitive nature here, look at Larry Ellison, right? He's got his, you know, the product that for the last two or three years, he said, "It's going to help determine the future of the company, autonomous database." You would think he's the last person in the world who's going to bring in, you know, in some ways another database to think about there, but he has put, you know, his whole effort and energy behind this. The investments Oracle's made, he's riding this horse really hard. So it's not just a technology achievement, but it's also an investment priority for Oracle going forward. And I think it's going to form a lot of how they position themselves to this new breed of buyer with a new type of need and expectations from IT. So I just think the next two or three years are going to be fantastic for people who are lucky enough to get to do the sorts of things that we do. >> You know, it's a great point you made about AWS. Back in 2018 Q3, they were doing about 7.4 billion a quarter and they were growing in the mid forties. They dropped down to like 29% Q4, 2020, I'm looking at the data now. They popped back up last quarter, last reported quarter to 40%, that is 17.8 billion, so they more doubled and they accelerated their growth rate. (laughs) So maybe that pretends, people are concerned about Snowflake right now decelerating growth. You know, maybe that's going to be different. By the way, I think Snowflake has a different strategy, the whole data cloud thing, data sharing. They're not trying to necessarily take Oracle head on, which is going to make this next 10 years, really interesting. All right, we got to go, last question. 30 seconds or less, what can we expect from the future of data platforms? Matt, please start. >> I have to go first again? You're killing me, Dave. (laughing) In the next few years, I think you're going to see the major players continue to meet customers where they are, right. Every organization, every environment is, you know, kind of, we use these words bespoke in Snowflake, pardon the pun, but Snowflakes, right. But you know, they're all opinionated and unique and what's great as an IT person is, you know, there is a service for me regardless of where I am on my journey, in my data management journey. I think you're going to continue to see with regards specifically to Oracle, I think you're going to see the company continue along this path of being all things to all people, if you will, or all organizations without sacrificing, you know, kind of richness of features and sacrificing who they are, right. Look, they are the data kings, right? I mean, they've been a database leader for an awful long time. I don't see that going away any time soon and I love the innovative spirit they've brought in with HeatWave. >> All right, great thank you. Okay, 30 seconds, Holgar go. >> Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing that we see is really that trend to autonomous as Oracle calls or self-driving software, right? So the database will have to do more things than just store the data and support the DVA. It will have to show it can wide insights, the whole upside, it will be able to show to one machine learning. We haven't really talked about that. How in just exciting what kind of use case we can get of machine learning running real time on data as it changes, right? So, which is part of the E5 announcement, right? So we'll see more of that self-driving nature in the database space. And because you said we can promote it, right. Check out my report about HeatWave latest release where I post in oracle.com. >> Great, thank you for that. And Bob Evans, please. You're great at quick hits, hit us. >> Dave, thanks. I really enjoyed getting to hear everybody's opinion here today and I think what's going to happen too. I think there's a new generation of buyers, a new set of CXO influencers in here. And I think what Oracle's done with this, MySQL HeatWave, those benchmarks that Ron talked about so eloquently here that is going to become something that forces other companies, not just try to get incrementally better. I think we're going to see a massive new wave of innovation to try to play catch up. So I really take my hat off to Oracle's achievement from going to, push everybody to be better. >> Excellent. Marc Staimer, what do you say? >> Sure, I'm going to leverage off of something Matt said earlier, "Those companies that are going to develop faster, cheaper, simpler products that are going to solve customer problems, IT problems are the ones that are going to succeed, or the ones who are going to grow. The one who are just focused on the technology are going to fall by the wayside." So those who can solve more problems, do it more elegantly and do it for less money are going to do great. So Oracle's going down that path today, Snowflake's going down that path. They're trying to do more integration with third party, but as a result, aiming at that simpler, faster, cheaper mentality is where you're going to continue to see this market go. >> Amen brother Marc. >> Thank you, Ron Westfall, we'll give you the last word, bring us home. >> Well, thank you. And I'm loving it. I see a wave of innovation across the entire cloud database ecosystem and Oracle is fueling it. We are seeing it, with the native integration of auto ML capabilities, elastic scaling, lower entry price points, et cetera. And this is just going to be great news for buyers, but also developers and increased use of open APIs. And so I think that is really the key takeaways. Just we're going to see a lot of great innovation on the horizon here. >> Guys, fantastic insights, one of the best power panel as I've ever done. Love to have you back. Thanks so much for coming on today. >> Great job, Dave, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Despite all the talk about repatriation, hybrid and multi-Cloud opportunities, and Cloud is an increasingly expensive option for customers, the data continues to show the importance of public Cloud to the digital economy. Moreover, the two leaders, AWS and Azure, are showing signs of accelerated momentum that point to those two giants pulling away from the pack in the years ahead, with each firm's showing broad based momentum across their respective product lines. It's unclear if anything, other than government intervention or self-inflicted wounds will slow these two companies down this decade. Despite their commanding lead, a winning strategy for companies that don't run their own Cloud continues to be innovating on top of their massive CapEx investments. The most notable example here being Snowflake. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we provide our quarterly market share update for the big four hyperscale Cloud providers. And we'll share some new ETR data from their most recent survey. And we'll drill into some of the reasons for the momentum of these two companies and drill further into the database and data warehouse sector to see what, if anything, has changed in that space. First, let's look at some of the noteworthy comments from AWS and Microsoft in their recent earnings updates. We heard from Amazon, the following, "AWS has seen a reacceleration of revenue growth as customers have expanded their commitment to the Cloud and selected AWS as their Cloud partner." Notably, AWS revenues increased 39% in Q3 2021. That's a thousand basis point increase in growth relative to Q3 2020. That's an astounding milestone for a company that we expect to surpass $60 billion in revenue this year. Further, AWS touted the adoption of its custom silicon, and specifically its Graviton2 processors. AWS is fond of emphasizing Graviton's 40% price performance improvements relative to x86 processors, something we've reported on quite extensively. AWS is investing in custom silicon, encouraging ISVs to port their code to the platform so that customers will experience little or no code changes when they migrate. Again, we believe this is a secret weapon for AWS as its cost structure will continue to improve at a rate faster than competitors that don't have the resources or the skills or the stomach to develop such capabilities. Microsoft, for its part, also saw astoundingly good growth of 48% this past quarter for Azure. This is a company that we forecast will approach $40 billion in IaaS and PaaS public Cloud revenue this year. Microsoft's CEO, Satya Nadella, on its earnings call, emphasized the changing nature of Cloud expanding in a distributed fashion to the edge. He referenced Azure as the world's computer. Building on his statements last year that Microsoft is building out a powerful, ubiquitous, intelligent, sensing and predictive Cloud. Yes, folks, it does feel like we're entering the so-called Metaverse, doesn't it? Okay, to underscore the momentum of these two companies, let's take a look at the ETR breakdown of Net score, which measures spending momentum. This chart will be familiar to our listeners. It shows the breakdown of net score for AWS, with the lime green showing new adoptions. That's 11%. The forest green is spending more than 6% relative to the first half of this year. That's a very robust 53%. The gray is flat spending. That's 30% on a very, very large base. And the pink is spending declines of minus 6% or worse. That's 4%. And the bright red is defections i.e those leaving AWS. That's 1%. That's virtually non-existent. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score of 59. Remember, anything over 40, we can still consider to be elevated. Let's look at that same data for Microsoft again. You have some new ads that lime green, that's 7%. The forest green is at 46% of customers spending more, which is an incredible figure for a company with revenues that will in the near term surpass $200 billion. And the red is in the low single digits. Buffered by its enormous PC software profits over the years, Microsoft is powered through its Window's Dogma and transitioned into a Cloud powerhouse. Let's now share some of our latest numbers for the big four hyperscale players, AWS, Azure, Alibaba and Google. Here, we show data for these companies from 2018 and our estimates for 2021. This data includes our final figures for AWS, Azure and GCP for Q3 with Alibaba yet to report. Remember, only AWS and Alibaba report IaaS revenue cleanly with Microsoft and Google, they give us a little breadcrumb nuggets that allow us to triangulate with our survey data and other intelligence. But it's our attempt to do an apples to apples comparison for those four companies using AWS and it's reporting as a baseline. In Q3, AWS reported more than $16 billion in revenue. We estimate Azure at 10 billion, Alibaba, we expect to come in at just under 3 billion, and GCP at 2.5 billion for the quarter. With three quarters of data in, with the exception of Alibaba, we're forecasting AWS to capture 51% of the big four revenue, the hyperscale revenue. And really we believe these are the only four hyperscalers. AWS will surpass 60 billion with Azure just under 40 billion, Alibaba approaching 11 billion, and Google coming in just under 10 billion for the year is our expectation. We forecast these four will account for $120 billion this year. That's a 41% increase over 2020 and the same collective growth rate as 2020 relative to 2019. We expect Azure to be 63% of the size of AWS revenue. So it is gaining share. Both of those companies, however, saw accelerated growth this past quarter with Alibaba and GCP's growth rates decelerating relative to last year. Now, let's take a closer look at those growth rates. This chart shows the quarterly growth rates for each of the four going back to the beginning of 2019. Both GCP and Alibaba are showing dramatic declines in growth rates, whereas, this past quarter Azure saw accelerated growth and AWS has now seen an increased rate of growth for the past two quarters. In fact, AWS' growth is about where it was in 2019 when it was around half of its current revenue size. And in 2019 growth was decelerating through the quarters as you can see where today that trend has reversed. It's quite amazing. All right, let's take a look at the broader Cloud landscape and bring back some ETR data. This chart that we're showing here, it shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share or presence in the dataset on the horizontal axis. Note that red dotted line, anything above that we can still consider elevated and impressive. As when we've previously shared this data, AWS and Microsoft Azure are up and to the right. Now remember, this chart is not just counting IaaS and PaaS as we showed you earlier, it's however the customers views whatever they think Cloud is. And so they're likely including Microsoft SaaS in this picture. Which is why Microsoft shows larger than AWS despite what we showed you earlier. Nonetheless, these two are well ahead of the pack and the growth rates indicate that they're pulling away. But we've added some of the other players, most notably VMware Cloud on AWS. It's showing momentum as is VMware Cloud, which is VMware Cloud foundation and other on-prem Cloud offerings, even though it's below the red line for the on-prem piece, it's very respectable. The VMware Cloud on AWS has been consistently up above that red line. Has popped beneath it in some quarters, but it's very, very strong. As is, you know, Red Hat OpenShift, it's a little bit below the line, but it is respectable. We've superimposed this by the way. Red Hat OpenShift in the ETR platform is under the container orchestration taxonomy, but we'd like to put it in next to the Cloud players for context. That's how Red Hat sort of thinks about this as well. They think about OpenShift as Cloud. And then you can see the other players. Alibaba has got a small sample in the ETR dataset. Just does not enough presence in China. But Dell and HPE have started to show up in the Cloud taxonomy. So buyers are associating their private Clouds with Cloud. So Dell's Apex, HPE's GreenLake. So that's a positive. And you can see Oracle, which of course is OCI, Oracle Cloud infrastructure. And then IBM with its public Cloud. So, it's a positive that these on-prem players are showing up in this data, but the reality is the hyperscalers are growing collectively at 40% annually and the on-prem players are growing in the low single digits. So, and if you carve out the IaaS business of AWS and Azure, they're larger than most of the on-premises infrastructure players. And all the on-prem players are moving toward an as a service model, as I just alluded to. So, undoubtedly, hybrid multicloud edge are going to present opportunities for the likes of Dell, HPE, Cisco, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, et cetera. But they also present opportunities for the public Cloud players who have vibrant ecosystems and marketplaces much more diverse and deep than the traditional vendors. You know, we have a clearer picture of Microsoft's sort of hybrid and edge strategy because the company has such an enormous legacy business, it really had to think about that much more deeply. It wasn't a blank sheet of paper like AWS. It's going to be interesting at reinvent this year if new CEO, Adam Selipsky, will talk about this. And it will be good to hear how he's thinking about the next decade, how AWS thinks about hybrid and edge, I guarantee that with their developer affinity and custom Silicon capabilities, they're thinking about it differently than traditional enterprise players. And as we've stressed in this segment, they have across the board momentum. Now to quantify that, let's take a look at AWS as portfolio in the spending momentum within its product segments. This chart shows AWS's net scores or spending momentum in the areas where AWS participates in the ETR taxonomy. Again, note that red line. Anything above 40% is considered an elevated watermark. We're showing data from last October, this past July and the latest October 21 survey. That yellow line or a bar. What's notable is the yellow versus the gray bars up across the board for the most part, other than chime... And by the way, other than chime, everything is above the 40% mark as well. Now, we've highlighted database because we feel it's one of the most strategic sectors in a real battleground. So we want to drill into that a bit. Here's our familiar X Y graph showing Net score on the Y axis, remember, that's, again, spending momentum and market share or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis. This data, by the way, includes on-prem and Cloud database data warehouse. So keep that in mind. Let's start with one of our favorite topics; Snowflake. We've reported again and again and again, that we've never seen anything like this. The company's net score has moderated ever so slightly this quarter, but it's still just below 80%. Very highly elevated. Well, above that 40% mark. It's Snowflake's presence continues to grow as a gain share in the market. Snowflake is growing revenue in the triple digits. It's an insane pace, hence its current $115 billion market cap as of this episode. Now that said, all three US-based Cloud players there are above the 40% line with AWS and Microsoft having significant presence on the horizontal axis. You see Cockroach Labs, Redis, Couchbase, they're all elevated or highly elevated. Couchbase just went public this summer. So that may help with its presence. MongoDB, they're killing it. They have a $37 billion market cap as of this episode. The stock has been on a tear. You see MariaDB was also in the mix. And then of course you have Oracle, the database leader. Look, they continue to invest in making the Oracle database and other software like MySQL, the best solution for mission critical workloads, and they're investing in their Cloud. But you can see overall, they just don't have the momentum from a spending standpoint that the others do because the declines in their legacy business. And they've been around a long time. Those declines are not fully offset by the growth in Cloud database and Cloud migration. But look, Oracle is a financial powerhouse with a $250 billion plus market cap. And the stock has done very well this past year. Up over 60%. Cloudera is going private. So it can hide the pain of the transitions that it's undergoing between the legacy install bases of Cloudera and Hortonworks. It's just a tough situation. When the companies came together, Cloudera essentially had a dead end. Each of those respective platforms and migrate their customers to a more modern stack as part of its Cloud strategy. Ironic that it's name is Cloudera. You know, that's always a difficult thing to do. So as a private company, Cloudera can maybe get off that 90 day shot clock and buy some time to invest without getting hammered by the street. And you know, Teradata consistently has not shown up well in the ETR dataset. It's transitioned to Cloud and cross-Cloud still hasn't shown momentum in the surveys. So, look right now, it's looking like the rich get richer. So just to quantify that a little bit, let's line up some of the database players and look a little bit more closely at net score. This chart shows the spending momentum or lack thereof with the net score or spending velocity granularity that we described before. Remember, green is spending more, red is spending less, bright red is leaving the platform, bright green is adding the platform. You take red, subtract red from the green, and that gives you a net score. Snowflake, as we said, tops the list. You can see the granularity there. You can compare the performance. In a little different view to understand how these scores are derived, look, the ideal profile is a solid lime green, a big forest green, a not too large gray and ideally little or no bright red AKA defections. And you can see the green funnel in the gray increasing prominence as the vendor momentum declines. Interestingly, with the exception of Cloudera and Teradata, defections are all in the single digits or nonexistent. In the case of Snowflake, Redis, red is no red at all, but small sample, Couchbase has no defections and very little defection for the giant Microsoft. Incredibly impressive. This speaks to how hard it is to migrate off of a database no matter how disgruntled you are. The more common scenario is to isolate the database and build new functionality on modern platforms. Okay, so what to watch out for. Well, reinvent this coming up next month. Oh this month. It's the first time someone other than Andy Jassy will be keynoting as CEO. 15 years of Cloud, this is the 10th re-invent, which is always a market for the direction of the industry. I've said many times that the last decade was largely about IT transformation powered by the Cloud. I believe we're entering a new era of business transformation where the Cloud is going to play a significant role. But the Cloud is evolving from a set of remote services out there in the Cloud to an omnipresent platform on top of which many customers and technology companies can innovate. And virtually every industry will be impacted by Cloud. However it evolves in the coming decade. The question will be, how fast can you go? And how will players like AWS and Microsoft and many others that are building on top of these platforms make it easier for you to go fast? That's what I'll be watching for at re-invent and beyond. Okay, that's a wrap for today. Remember, these episodes, they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcasts. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. We'll see you at re-invent. (soft upbeat music)

>> From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube in ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >> Throughout the pre-vaccine COVID era, IT buyers indicated that budget constraints would constrict 2020 spending by roughly 5 percent relative to 2019 levels. But the forced march to digital, combined with increased cyber threats, created a modernization mandate that powered Q4 spending last year and this momentum has carried through to 2021. However, COVID variants have delayed return to work and business travel plans and as such our current forecast for global IT spending remains strong at 6 to 7 percent but slightly down from previous estimates. Notably, CIOs and IT buyers expect a 7 to 8 percent increase in 2022 spending, reflecting investments in hybrid strategies in a continued belief that technology remains the underpinning of competitive advantage in the coming decade. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll share the latest results of ETR's macro spending survey and update you in industry and sector spending patterns. First, let's summarize the key take-aways from ETR's latest demand-side survey. Based on ETR's latest survey. Currently with 869 responses as shown here at the bottom, we expect a slight pull-back in spending expectations from CIOs and IT buyers to roughly 6 to 7 percent, down from 7 to 8 percent earlier this year. This reflects caution over return to office strategies but buyers continue to expect robust spending as we said into next year as they support hybrid models, modernize their HQ infrastructure and continue to move forward on digital transformation initiatives. Cyber security and cloud remain the top 2 priorities with data initiatives overtaking collaboration and productivity on the priority list. Although all of these remain strong. Organizations now expect around 44 percent of employees to be working in a hybrid model over the long-term with 37 percent currently working in a hybrid fashion. Now here's the data behind the revised projections it compares the spending growth expectations from the March, June, and September 21 surveys. This by no means is a radical change as you can see from the downward trajectory of the yellow bar. It reflects the reality of the continued injection of uncertainty caused by the pandemic. Organizations are dealing with the reality and remaining flexible with regard to strategies and spending outlook, but the 2022 bar on the far-right at 7 and a half percent stands out in its telling as buyers expect spending levels in 22 to outpace historical norms by quite a large margin. Now as shown here, the spending compression is an across the board trend. Only Latin America, industrial materials manufacturing, and retail consumer show an uptick from previous surveys. With non-profits, education, energy, and APAC showing the steepest declines. But the longer term spending outlook remains robust across the boards. This chart shows that generally the outlook for 2022 spending is strong with retail consumer and government leading the charge. Only the historically cautious education sector stands out as softer, but even so its spending outlook is comparable to historical norms. Now be careful putting too much emphasis, by the way, on Latin America as the ends are small as ETR noted here. Now let's take a look at the sector analysis. This picture has been amazingly consistent. ETR asks respondents to rate their spending priorities and the chart shows the ratings from highest to lowest priority for the top technology sectors. Now this data only shows the top 7 sectors, so even though for instance RPA appears down the list, it remains one of the highest in the survey. In fact, although we are not showing this data, we went in and looked at this. Machine learning, containers, cloud, and RPA remain the top 4 areas from a net score or spending momentum standpoint. Well above the 40 percent mark we talk about all the time. Back to the priorities we asked the CIOs. Cyber security is noticeably above the rest with cloud migration remaining very strong. The data sector i.e. analytics and data warehousing have overtaken collaboration and productivity as priorities. However, collaboration remains strong as do networking, AI, and RPA. Now when we dig into some of these sectors to see which vendors are showing spending momentum, let's take a look. In addition to the large cloud players, especially AWS and Microsoft, we saw that snowflake continued to hover at around 80 percent net score level. Some others that we haven't cited as much recently are popping up either with spending momentum, or showing a larger presence in the market or both within these sectors. Toughtsbot has popped up now this AI specialist has shown up every now and then in the survey but they seem to be getting traction in the data set and they have an elevated net score. Datadog also stood out as did Cockroach Labs and Databricks is starting to show some strength even though they have shown strength in past surveys, they're starting to show larger presence in the survey. Now Networking Arista who has always had strong momentum shows continued strong momentum. And Maraki which has a large presence in the data set, is also notable. Not as high, but as a much larger share. Monday.com is also hitting the radar in collaboration and Twilio is popping up as well. Let's take a look at the return to office trends and the actions organizations have taken as a result of COVID and see how that's changed over time. This data shows the time series going back to the June 2020 survey. Let's start with the percent of organizations with employees working from home and you'll note that has ticked up since June and is now back up to 75 percent. And you can see the noticeable drop in the percentage of companies that have employees fully returning to the office. Also, more organizations are canceling business trips. So these are some of the factors that contribute to the slightly more cautious spending outlook that we're reporting here. Now continuing on the chart even though layoffs are trending downward, it's no surprise given the skill shortage you see a slight uptick in hiring freezes and a downtick in new hiring. New IT deployment freezes they remain low but there is a slight down tick in accelerating new IT deployments. So look, these are not radical changes, but they do reflect the on-going day-by-day, month-by-month, quarter-by-quarter adjustments that we've seen companies make throughout the COVID era. And it underscores the need for organizations to be more agile, flexible, resilient, and responsive to change. What does that mean? It means modernizing infrastructure and apps, better leveraging data, applying AI, and taking care of governance, compliance, and security. And CIOs expect these spending priorities to continue for the foreseeable future, at least for the next 15 months. Now as we've declared in previous episodes, every CEO, CXO, corner office, boards of directors, they're trying to get hybrid right. Interestingly, we see some companies mandating a return to work. We've seen this with some of the Wall Street firms, for example, but tech is a leading example of advocating for remote or hybrid work. To it, Michael Dell's public posture that he's wide-open for remote and, or hybrid work and Frank Slootman has moved Snowflakes' executive offices to Bozeman, Montana reflecting his sentiment that the days of big corporate towers are over. And why not? Productivity is through the roof, and the cost savings from working remotely can be enormous. This chart shows data back to the December 2020 survey. And we've seen a steady decline in remote work, but it's still the dominant model of 53 percent of the work force. In other words, people are starting to come back to office but still very, very high remote. Now jump to the third set of bars. And organizations expect a 39 percent of employees to be working remotely in 6 months. Now jump back to the second set of bars, 37 percent of employees are currently working in a hybrid model and that's up from 33 percent in June. Now jump to the fourth set of bars and the expectation is around 44 percent will be working in a hybrid model within the next 6 months. Organizations expect remote workers to settle in and level around 30 percent. Now that's down from previous highs of 35 percent last December but it's up significantly from the historical average of 15 to 16 percent. And the expectation as you can see in the last set of bars is that more than 40 percent of employees will be working in a hybrid model, on a permanent basis. So look, the world is going hybrid. It's the future and that requires technology investments to support new ways to work. And that's one main reason why we see the spending momentum continuing into 2022. So let's drill a little bit into what this means. In order words, how are organizations thinking about their hybrid models. This chart shows the responses from the June and September surveys when ETR began asking organizations to describe their hybrid approaches in more detail. The dominant model, around 50 percent of organizations say time will be split between remote and required on-site days. This is where leaders will ask employees to come to the office at designated times for whiteboard sessions, or planning meetings, et cetera. So hybrid is the dominant model. Then we see a big drop to primarily on-site with exceptions as needed and a low single digit number of organizations with no hybrid option. So the message is clear: Hybrid is the way forward and IT infrastructure will evolve to support these models and this bodes well for tech spending in our view. It speaks to continued cyber investments, leverage the cloud for flexible capacity shoring up on-prem infrastructure as we now see more vendors offering flexible capacity on-prem. Modernizing applications, building layers with micro-services and kubernetes that can actually connect to the cloud or assist in moving workloads, evolving the network architecture, flattening that out we hear a lot of talk about the edge, driving automation, and new ways to work and putting data at the core of digital business strategies. These are the technology approaches that organizations are tapping to deal with the changing dynamics of the pandemic, and adapting to new business models. Across the board, technology has become one of the most important enablers for competitiveness ain the coming decade and we expect that momentum to continue until some exogenous factors derail the spending trend. At the moment, that risk doesn't appear to be a slow-down in an economic recovery, although we continue to watch uncertainties around interest rates, inflation, tax policy, and global economic tensions, especially with China. And as always, we'll be here to update you as the data changes. Okay we're going to leave it there for now, remember these episodes are all available as podcasts you just got to search "breaking analysis podcasts" and we publish each week on wikibon.com and silliconeggle.com. You can connect with me on twitter @Devalante or email me at david.valante@silliconeggle.com. Appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and don't forget to check out ETR.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Valante for the Cube insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (music)

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Database is the heart of enterprise computing. The market is both exploding and it's evolving. The major force is transforming the space include Cloud and data, of course, but also new workloads, advanced memory and IO capabilities, new processor types, a massive push towards simplicity, new data sharing and governance models, and a spate of venture investment. Snowflake stands out as the gold standard for operational excellence and go to market execution. The company has attracted the attention of customers, investors, and competitors and everyone from entrenched players to upstarts once in the act. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll share our most current thinking on the database marketplace and dig into Snowflake's execution. Some of its challenges and we'll take a look at how others are making moves to solve customer problems and try to get a piece of the growing database pie. Let's look at some of the factors that are driving market momentum. First, customers want lower license costs. They want simplicity. They want to avoid database sprawl. They want to run anywhere and manage new data types. These needs often are divergent and they pull vendors and technologies in different direction. It's really hard for any one platform to accommodate every customer need. The market is large and it's growing. Gardner has it at around 60 to 65 billion with a CAGR of somewhere around 20% over the next five years. But the market, as we know it is being redefined. Traditionally, databases have served two broad use cases, OLTP or transactions and reporting like data warehouses. But a diversity of workloads and new architectures and innovations have given rise to a number of new types of databases to accommodate all these diverse customer needs. Many billions have been spent over the last several years in venture money and it continues to pour in. Let me just give you some examples. Snowflake prior to its IPO, raised around 1.4 billion. Redis Labs has raised more than 1/2 billion dollars so far, Cockroach Labs, more than 350 million, Couchbase, 250 million, SingleStore formerly MemSQL, 238 million, Yellowbrick Data, 173 million. And if you stretch the definition of database a little bit to including low-code or no-code, Airtable has raised more than 600 million. And that's by no means a complete list. Now, why is all this investment happening? Well, in a large part, it's due to the TAM. The TAM is huge and it's growing and it's being redefined. Just how big is this market? Let's take a look at a chart that we've shown previously. We use this chart to Snowflakes TAM, and it focuses mainly on the analytics piece, but we'll use it here to really underscore the market potential. So the actual database TAM is larger than this, we think. Cloud and Cloud-native technologies have changed the way we think about databases. Virtually 100% of the database players that they're are in the market have pivoted to a Cloud first strategy. And many like Snowflake, they're pretty dogmatic and have a Cloud only strategy. Databases has historically been very difficult to manage, they're really sensitive to latency. So that means they require a lot of tuning. Cloud allows you to throw virtually infinite resources on demand and attack performance problems and scale very quickly, minimizing the complexity and tuning nuances. This idea, this layer of data as a service we think of it as a staple of digital transformation. Is this layer that's forming to support things like data sharing across ecosystems and the ability to build data products or data services. It's a fundamental value proposition of Snowflake and one of the most important aspects of its offering. Snowflake tracks a metric called edges, which are external connections in its data Cloud. And it claims that 15% of its total shared connections are edges and that's growing at 33% quarter on quarter. This notion of data sharing is changing the way people think about data. We use terms like data as an asset. This is the language of the 2010s. We don't share our assets with others, do we? No, we protect them, we secure or them, we even hide them. But we absolutely don't want to share those assets but we do want to share our data. I had a conversation recently with Forrester analyst, Michelle Goetz. And we both agreed we're going to scrub data as an asset from our phrasiology. Increasingly, people are looking at sharing as a way to create, as I said, data products or data services, which can be monetized. This is an underpinning of Zhamak Dehghani's concept of a data mesh, make data discoverable, shareable and securely governed so that we can build data products and data services that can be monetized. This is where the TAM just explodes and the market is redefining. And we think is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Let's talk a little bit about the diversity of offerings in the marketplace. Again, databases used to be either transactional or analytic. The bottom lines and top lines. And this chart here describe those two but the types of databases, you can see the middle of mushrooms, just looking at this list, blockchain is of course a specialized type of database and it's also finding its way into other database platforms. Oracle is notable here. Document databases that support JSON and graph data stores that assist in visualizing data, inference from multiple different sources. That's is one of the ways in which adtech has taken off and been so effective. Key Value stores, log databases that are purpose-built, machine learning to enhance insights, spatial databases to help build the next generation of products, the next automobile, streaming databases to manage real time data flows and time series databases. We might've missed a few, let us know if you think we have, but this is a kind of pretty comprehensive list that is somewhat mind boggling when you think about it. And these unique requirements, they've spawned tons of innovation and companies. Here's a small subset on this logo slide. And this is by no means an exhaustive list, but you have these companies here which have been around forever like Oracle and IBM and Teradata and Microsoft, these are the kind of the tier one relational databases that have matured over the years. And they've got properties like atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability, what's known as ACID properties, ACID compliance. Some others that you may or may not be familiar with, Yellowbrick Data, we talked about them earlier. It's going after the best price, performance and analytics and optimizing to take advantage of both hybrid installations and the latest hardware innovations. SingleStore, as I said, formerly known as MemSQL is a very high end analytics and transaction database, supports mixed workloads, extremely high speeds. We're talking about trillions of rows per second that could be ingested in query. Couchbase with hybrid transactions and analytics, Redis Labs, open source, no SQL doing very well, as is Cockroach with distributed SQL, MariaDB with its managed MySQL, Mongo and document database has a lot of momentum, EDB, which supports open source Postgres. And if you stretch the definition a bit, Splunk, for log database, why not? ChaosSearch, really interesting startup that leaves data in S-3 and is going after simplifying the ELK stack, New Relic, they have a purpose-built database for application performance management and we probably could have even put Workday in the mix as it developed a specialized database for its apps. Of course, we can't forget about SAP with how not trying to pry customers off of Oracle. And then the big three Cloud players, AWS, Microsoft and Google with extremely large portfolios of database offerings. The spectrum of products in this space is very wide, with you've got AWS, which I think we're up to like 16 database offerings, all the way to Oracle, which has like one database to do everything not withstanding MySQL because it owns MySQL got that through the Sun Acquisition. And it recently, it made some innovations there around the heat wave announcement. But essentially Oracle is investing to make its database, Oracle database run any workload. While AWS takes the approach of the right tool for the right job and really focuses on the primitives for each database. A lot of ways to skin a cat in this enormous and strategic market. So let's take a look at the spending data for the names that make it into the ETR survey. Not everybody we just mentioned will be represented because they may not have quite the market presence of the ends in the survey, but ETR that capture a pretty nice mix of players. So this chart here, it's one of the favorite views that we like to share quite often. It shows the database players across the 1500 respondents in the ETR survey this past quarter and it measures their net score. That's spending momentum and is shown on the vertical axis and market share, which is the pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. The Snowflake is notable because it's been hovering around 80% net score since the survey started picking them up. Anything above 40%, that red line there, is considered by us to be elevated. Microsoft and AWS, they also stand out because they have both market presence and they have spending velocity with their platforms. Oracle is very large but it doesn't have the spending momentum in the survey because nearly 30% of Oracle installations are spending less, whereas only 22% are spending more. Now as a caution, this survey doesn't measure dollar spent and Oracle will be skewed toward the big customers with big budgets. So you got to consider that caveat when evaluating this data. IBM is in a similar position although its market share is not keeping up with Oracle's. Google, they've got great tech especially with BigQuery and it has elevated momentum. So not a bad spot to be in although I'm sure it would like to be closer to AWS and Microsoft on the horizontal axis, so it's got some work to do there. And some of the others we mentioned earlier, like MemSQL, Couchbase. As shown MemSQL here, they're now SingleStore. Couchbase, Reddis, Mongo, MariaDB, all very solid scores on the vertical axis. Cloudera just announced that it was selling to private equity and that will hopefully give it some time to invest in this platform and get off the quarterly shot clock. MapR was acquired by HPE and it's part of HPE's Ezmeral platform, their data platform which doesn't yet have the market presence in the survey. Now, something that is interesting in looking at in Snowflakes earnings last quarter, is this laser focused on large customers. This is a hallmark of Frank Slootman and Mike Scarpelli who I know they don't have a playbook but they certainly know how to go whale hunting. So this chart isolates the data that we just showed you to the global 1000. Note that both AWS and Snowflake go up higher on the X-axis meaning large customers are spending at a faster rate for these two companies. The previous chart had an end of 161 for Snowflake, and a 77% net score. This chart shows the global 1000, in the end there for Snowflake is 48 accounts and the net score jumps to 85%. We're not going to show it here but when you isolate the ETR data, nice you can just cut it, when you isolate it on the fortune 1000, the end for Snowflake goes to 59 accounts in the data set and Snowflake jumps another 100 basis points in net score. When you cut the data by the fortune 500, the Snowflake N goes to 40 accounts and the net score jumps another 200 basis points to 88%. And when you isolate on the fortune 100 accounts is only 18 there but it's still 18, their net score jumps to 89%, almost 90%. So it's very strong confirmation that there's a proportional relationship between larger accounts and spending momentum in the ETR data set. So Snowflakes large account strategy appears to be working. And because we think Snowflake is sticky, this probably is a good sign for the future. Now we've been talking about net score, it's a key measure in the ETR data set, so we'd like to just quickly remind you what that is and use Snowflake as an example. This wheel chart shows the components of net score, that lime green is new adoptions. 29% of the customers in the ETR dataset that are new to Snowflake. That's pretty impressive. 50% of the customers are spending more, that's the forest green, 20% are flat, that's the gray, and only 1%, the pink, are spending less. And 0% zero or replacing Snowflake, no defections. What you do here to get net scores, you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 78%. Which is pretty sick and has been sick as in good sick and has been steady for many, many quarters. So that's how the net score methodology works. And remember, it typically takes Snowflake customers many months like six to nine months to start consuming it's services at the contracted rate. So those 29% new adoptions, they're not going to kick into high gear until next year, so that bodes well for future revenue. Now, it's worth taking a quick snapshot at Snowflakes most recent quarter, there's plenty of stuff out there that you can you can google and get a summary but let's just do a quick rundown. The company's product revenue run rate is now at 856 million they'll surpass $1 billion on a run rate basis this year. The growth is off the charts very high net revenue retention. We've explained that before with Snowflakes consumption pricing model, they have to account for retention differently than what a SaaS company. Snowflake added 27 net new $1 million accounts in the quarter and claims to have more than a hundred now. It also is just getting its act together overseas. Slootman says he's personally going to spend more time in Europe, given his belief, that the market is huge and they can disrupt it and of course he's from the continent. He was born there and lived there and gross margins expanded, do in a large part to renegotiation of its Cloud costs. Welcome back to that in a moment. Snowflake it's also moving from a product led growth company to one that's more focused on core industries. Interestingly media and entertainment is one of the largest along with financial services and it's several others. To me, this is really interesting because Disney's example that Snowflake often puts in front of its customers as a reference. And it seems to me to be a perfect example of using data and analytics to both target customers and also build so-called data products through data sharing. Snowflake has to grow its ecosystem to live up to its lofty expectations and indications are that large SIS are leaning in big time. Deloitte cross the $100 million in deal flow in the quarter. And the balance sheet's looking good. Thank you very much with $5 billion in cash. The snarks are going to focus on the losses, but this is all about growth. This is a growth story. It's about customer acquisition, it's about adoption, it's about loyalty and it's about lifetime value. Now, as I said at the IPO, and I always say this to young people, don't buy a stock at the IPO. There's probably almost always going to be better buying opportunities ahead. I'm not always right about that, but I often am. Here's a chart of Snowflake's performance since IPO. And I have to say, it's held up pretty well. It's trading above its first day close and as predicted there were better opportunities than day one but if you have to make a call from here. I mean, don't take my stock advice, do your research. Snowflake they're priced to perfection. So any disappointment is going to be met with selling. You saw that the day after they beat their earnings last quarter because their guidance in revenue growth,. Wasn't in the triple digits, it sort of moderated down to the 80% range. And they pointed, they pointed to a new storage compression feature that will lower customer costs and consequently, it's going to lower their revenue. I swear, I think that that before earnings calls, Scarpelli sits back he's okay, what kind of creative way can I introduce the dampen enthusiasm for the guidance. Now I'm not saying lower storage costs will translate into lower revenue for a period of time. But look at dropping storage prices, customers are always going to buy more, that's the way the storage market works. And stuff like did allude to that in all fairness. Let me introduce something that people in Silicon Valley are talking about, and that is the Cloud paradox for SaaS companies. And what is that? I was a clubhouse room with Martin Casado of Andreessen when I first heard about this. He wrote an article with Sarah Wang, calling it to question the merits of SaaS companies sticking with Cloud at scale. Now the basic premise is that for startups in early stages of growth, the Cloud is a no brainer for SaaS companies, but at scale, the cost of Cloud, the Cloud bill approaches 50% of the cost of revenue, it becomes an albatross that stifles operating leverage. Their conclusion ended up saying that as much as perhaps as much as the back of the napkin, they admitted that, but perhaps as much as 1/2 a trillion dollars in market cap is being vacuumed away by the hyperscalers that could go to the SaaS providers as cost savings from repatriation. And that Cloud repatriation is an inevitable path for large SaaS companies at scale. I was particularly interested in this as I had recently put on a post on the Cloud repatriation myth. I think in this instance, there's some merit to their conclusions. But I don't think it necessarily bleeds into traditional enterprise settings. But for SaaS companies, maybe service now has it right running their own data centers or maybe a hybrid approach to hedge bets and save money down the road is prudent. What caught my attention in reading through some of the Snowflake docs, like the S-1 in its most recent 10-K were comments regarding long-term purchase commitments and non-cancelable contracts with Cloud companies. And the companies S-1, for example, there was disclosure of $247 million in purchase commitments over a five plus year period. And the company's latest 10-K report, that same line item jumped to 1.8 billion. Now Snowflake is clearly managing these costs as it alluded to when its earnings call. But one has to wonder, at some point, will Snowflake follow the example of say Dropbox which Andreessen used in his blog and start managing its own IT? Or will it stick with the Cloud and negotiate hard? Snowflake certainly has the leverage. It has to be one of Amazon's best partners and customers even though it competes aggressively with Redshift but on the earnings call, CFO Scarpelli said, that Snowflake was working on a new chip technology to dramatically increase performance. What the heck does that mean? Is this Snowflake is not becoming a hardware company? So I going to have to dig into that a little bit and find out what that it means. I'm guessing, it means that it's taking advantage of ARM-based processes like graviton, which many ISVs ar allowing their software to run on that lower cost platform. Or maybe there's some deep dark in the weeds secret going on inside Snowflake, but I doubt it. We're going to leave all that for there for now and keep following this trend. So it's clear just in summary that Snowflake they're the pace setter in this new exciting world of data but there's plenty of room for others. And they still have a lot to prove. For instance, one customer in ETR, CTO round table express skepticism that Snowflake will live up to its hype because its success is going to lead to more competition from well-established established players. This is a common theme you hear it all the time. It's pretty easy to reach that conclusion. But my guess is this the exact type of narrative that fuels Slootman and sucked him back into this game of Thrones. That's it for now, everybody. Remember, these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search braking analysis podcast and please subscribe to series. Check out ETR his website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikinbon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, Email is David.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at DVelante on Twitter or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EDB. >> Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante for the CUBE. We're covering Postgres Vision 2021, the Virtual CUBE edition. Welcome to our conversation with the CEO, Ed Boyajian, the CEO of Enterprise DB. And we're going to talk about what's happening in open source and database and the future of tech. Ed, Welcome. >> Hi Dave, good to be here. >> Hey, several years ago at Postgres Vision event you put forth the premise that the industry was approaching a threshold moment, and digital transformation was the linchpin of that shift. Now, Ed, while you were correct, and I have no doubt the audience agreed, most people went back to their offices after that event and they returned to their hyper-focus of their day-to-day jobs. Yeah, maybe a few accelerated their digital initiatives but generally, pre COVID, we moved at a pretty incremental pace and then the big bang hit. And if you weren't digital business, you were out of business. So, that single event created the most rapid change that we've ever seen in the tech industry by far, nothing really compares. So, the question is, why is Postgres specifically and EDB generally the right fit for this new world? >> Yeah, I think, look a couple of things are happening Dave. You know, right along the bigger picture of digital transformation, we are seeing the database market in transformation. And, and I think the things that are driving that shift are the things that are resulting the success of Postgres and the success of EDB. I think first and foremost, we're seeing a dramatic re-platforming. And just like we saw in the world of Linux where I was at, Red Hat during that shift where people were moving from Unix-based systems to X86 systems, we're seeing that similar re-platforming happening whether that's from traditional infrastructures to cloud-based infrastructures or container-based infrastructures, it's a great opportunity for databases to be changed out. Postgres wins in that context because it's so easily deployed anywhere. I think the second thing that's changing is we're seeing a broad expansion of developers across the enterprise. They don't just live in IT anymore. And I think as developers take on more power and control, they're just defining the agenda. And it's another place where Postgres shines. It's been a priority of EDB's to make Postgres easier and that's coming to life. And I think the last stack overflow developer survey suggested that, I think they survey 65,000 developers, the second most loved and the second most used database by developers is Postgres. And so I think there again, Postgres shines in a moment of change. And then I think the third is kind of obvious. It's always an elephant in the room, no pun intended, but it's this relentless nagging burden of the expenses of the incumbent proprietary databases and the need. And we especially saw this in COVID. To start to change that, more dramatically change that economic equation, here again, Postgres shines. >> You know, I want to ask you, I'm going to jump ahead to the future for a second, because you're talking about the re-platforming and with your Red Hat shops I kind of want to pick your brain on this because you're right. You saw that with Red Hat and you're kind of seeing it again when you think about open shift and where it's going, my question is related to re-platforming around new types of workloads, new processing models at the edge, I mean, you've seen an explosion of processing power GPU's, NPUs, accelerators, DSPs and it appears that there this is happening at a very low cost. I'm inferring that you're saying Postgres can take advantage of that trend as well, that that broader re-platforming trend to the edge, is that correct? >> It is. And, and I think, you know this is the this has been one of the I think the most interesting things with Postgres. Now I've been here almost 13 years. So if you put that in some perspective, I've watched and participated in leading transformation in the category. You know, we've been squarely focused on Postgres so we've got 300 engineers who worry about making Postgres better. And as you look across that landscape a time, not only as Postgres gotten more performance and more scalable, it's also proven to be the right database choice in the world of not just legacy migrations but new application development. And I think that stack overflow developer survey is a good indicator of how developers feel about Postgres, but, you know over that timeframe, I think if you went back to 2008 when I joined EDB, Postgres was was considered a really good general purpose database. And today I think Postgres is a great general purpose database. General purpose isn't sexy in the market, broadly speaking but Postgres capabilities across workloads in every area is really robust. And let me just spend a second on it. We look at our customer base as deploying and what we think of as systems of record, which are the traditional ERP type apps, you know where there's a single source of truth. You might think of ERP apps there. We look at our customers deploying and systems of engagement, and those are apps that you might think of in the context of social media style apps or websites that are backed by a database. And the third area is systems of analytics where you would typically think of data warehouse style applications, interestingly, Postgres performs well. And our customers report using us across that whole landscape of application areas. And I think that is one of Postgres' hidden superpowers, is that ability to reach into each area of requirement on the workload side. >> Yeah. And as I was alluding to before. That, that itself is evolving as you now inject AI into the equation AI inferencing. And it's just a very exciting times ahead. There's no, there's no database, you know 20 years ago it was kind of boring. Now it's just exploding. I want to come back to that, the notion of of Postgres that maybe talk about other database models. I mean, you've mentioned that you've evolved from this, you know, system of record. You can take a system engagement on structured data, et cetera, Jason it's-. So how should we think about Postgres in relation to other databases and specifically other business models of companies that provide database services? Why is Postgres attractive? Where is it winning? >> Yeah, I think a couple of places. So, I mean, for first and foremost, Postgres, you know at its core, Postgres is a SQL relational database a trend in asset compliance, equal relational database. And that is inherently a strength of Postgres but it's also a multi-model database. Which means we handle a lot of other, you know database requirements, whether that's geospatial or, or JSON for documents or, or time series, things like that. And, so Postgres extensibility is one of its inherent strengths. And that's kind of been built in from the beginning of Postgres. So not surprisingly people use Postgres across a number of workloads because at the end of the day, there's still value in having a database that's able to do more. There are a lot of important specialty databases and I think they will remain important specialty databases, but Postgres thrives in its ability to crossover in that way. And I think that is, you know one of the different key differentiators in in how we've seen the market and the business develop. And, and that's the breadth of of workloads that Postgres succeeds in. But, but our growth if you kind of ventured it across vectors we see growth happening, you know, in a few dimensions. First, we see growth happening in new applications. About half of our customers have come to us today for new, new Postgres users are deploying us on new applications. The others are our second area migrating away from some existing legacy incumbent. Often Oracle, not always. The third area of growth we see is in cloud where we're Postgres is deployed very prolifically both in the traditional cloud platforms like EC2, but then again also in the database as a service environment and then the fourth area growth we're seeing now is around container deployment, Kubernetes deployment. >> Well, you mean Oracle's prominent because it's just, it's, it's, it's a big install base and it's expensive and people, you know they got to look at that. I mean, It's funny. I do a lot of TCO work and mostly, you know usually TCO is about labor costs when it comes to Oracle it's about license costs and maintenance costs. And so to the extent that you can reduce that at least for a portion of your state, you're going to, you're going to drop right to the bottom line. But, but, I want to ask you about the kind of that spectrum that you think about the prevailing models for database you've got on the one hand, you've got the right tool for the right job approach. You know, it might be 10 or 12 data stores in the cloud. On the other hand, you've got kind of a converged approach. You know, Oracle is going that direction, clearly Postgres, with its open source innovation, is going that direction. And it seems to me yet that at scale that's a more, the latter is the more cost-effective model. How do you think about that? >> Well, you know, I think at the end of the day you kind of have to look at it. I mean, the, the business side of my brain looks at that as an addressable market question, right? And you heard me talk about three broad categories of workloads and, you know, people define workloads in different buckets, but that's how we do it. But if you look at just a system of record in the system of engagement market I think that's what would be traditionally viewed as the database market. And there that's, you know, let's just say for the sake of arguments, a 45 to $50 billion market. The third, the systems of analysis that market's an $18 billion market. And, and, you know, as we talk about that so all in it's still between 60 and $70 billion market. And I think what happens, there's so much heat and light poured on the valuation multiples of some of the specialty players that the market gets confused. But the reality is our customers don't get confused. I mean, if you look at those specialty players take that $48 billion market. I mean, add up Mongo, Reds, Cockroach, Neo, all of those. I mean, hugely valued companies all unicorn companies, but combined they add up to a billion bucks. Don't get me wrong, that's important revenue and meaningful in the workloads they support, but it's not, it doesn't define the full transformation of this category. Look at the systems of analysis again, another great, great market example. I mean, if you add up the consolidation of the Hadoop vendors, add in there, snowflake you're still talking to, you know $1.5 billion in revenue in an $18 billion market. So while those are all important technologies the question is in this transformation move did the database market fully transformed yet. And my view is, no, it didn't, we're in the first maybe second inning of a $65 billion transformation. And I think this is where Postgres will ultimately shine. I think this is how Postgres wins, because at the end of the day, the, the nature of the workloads fits with Postgres and the future tech that we're building in Postgres will serve that broader set of needs. I think more effectively. >> Well, and I love these tam expansion discussions because I think you're right on. And I think it comes back to the data and we all we all talk about the data growth, the data exposure and we see the IDC numbers. Well, you ain't seen nothing yet. And so at data by its very nature is distributed. That's why I get so excited about these new platform models. And I want to tie it back to developers and open source because to me, that is the linchpin of innovation in the next decade. It has been, I would even say for the last decade we've seen it, but it's gaining momentum. So, so in thinking about innovation and specifically Postgres in open source, you know, what can you share with us in terms of how we should think about your advantage and again where people are glomming, leaning in to that advantage? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think, I think you bring up a really important topic for us as a company, Postgres, we think is an incredibly powerful community and, and when you step away from it, again, I, now you remember, I told you, I'd been at, I was at Red Hat before now here at EDB. And there's a common thread that runs through those two experiences. In, in both experiences the companies are attached and prominent alongside a strong, independent open-source community. And I think the notion of an independent community is really important to understand around Postgres. There are hundreds and thousands of people contributing to Postgres. Now EDB plays a big role in that about, you know approaching a third of the contributions in the last release, released 13 of Postgres came from EDB. Now you might look at that and say, gee, that sounds like a lot, but if you step away from it, you know at about 30% of those contributions, most of the contributions come from a universe around EDB and that's inherently healthy for the community's ability to innovate and accelerate. And I think that while we play a strong role there you can imagine that having, and there are other great companies that are contributing to Postgres. I think having those companies participating and contributing gets the best the best ideas to the front in innovation. So I think the inherent nature Postgres community makes it strong and healthy. I mean, and then contrast that to some of the other prominent high value open-source companies. Companies and the communities are intimately intertwined. They're one in the same. They're actually not independent open source communities. And I think that they're therein lies one of, one of the inherent weaknesses in those. But, Postgres thrives because, you know we bring all those ideas from EDB. We bring a commercial contingent with us and all the things we hope, we emphasize and focus on, in growth and Postgres. Whether that's in the areas of scalability, manageability, all hot topics, of course security, all of those areas. And then, you know, performance as always. All of those areas are informed to us by enterprise customers deploying Postgres at scale. And I think that's the heart of what makes a successful independent project. >> Common editorial powers of, of that ecosystem. They, they they're they're multiplicative as opposed to the, the resources of one. I want to talk about Postgres Vision 2021 sort of set up that a little bit. The theme this year is 'The Future is You'. What do you mean by that? >> So, if you think about what we just said, posts, the category is in Tran-, the database categories in transformation. And we know that many of our people are interested in Postgres are early in their journey. They're early in their experience. And so we want to focus this year's Postgres Vision on them. That we understand, as a company who's been committed to Postgres, as long as we have. And with the understanding we have of the technology and best practices, we want to share that view, those insights with, with those who are coming to Postgres. Some for the first time, some who are experienced. >> Postgres Vision 21 is June 22nd and 23rd go to enterprisedb.com and register. The CUBE's going to be there. We hope you will be too. Ed, thanks for coming to the CUBE and previewing the event. >> Thanks, Dave. >> And thank you. We'll see you at Vision 21. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> As you may recall, coming into the second part of 2019 we reported, based on ETR Survey data, that there was a narrowing of spending on emerging tech and an unplugging of a lot of legacy systems. This was really because people were going from experimentation into operationalizing their digital initiatives. When COVID hit, conventional wisdom suggested that there would be a flight to safety. Now, interestingly, we reported with Eric Bradley, based on one of the Venns, that a lot of CIOs were still experimenting with emerging vendors. But this was very anecdotal. Today, we have more data, fresh data, from the ETR Emerging Technology Study on private companies, which really does suggest that there's a notable decline in experimentation, and that's affecting emerging technology vendors. Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Once again, Sagar Kadakia is joining us. Sagar is the Director of Research at ETR. Sagar, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you again. Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So, it's really important to point out, this Emerging Tech Study that you guys do, it's different from your quarterly Technology Spending Intention Survey. Take us through the methodology. Guys, maybe you could bring up the first chart. And, Sagar, walk us through how you guys approach this. >> No problem. So, a lot of the viewers are used to seeing a lot of the results from the Technology Spending Intention Survey, or the TSIS, as we call it. That study, as the title says, it really tracks spending intentions on more pervasive vendors, right, Microsoft, AWS, as an example. What we're going to look at today is our Emerging Technology Study, which we conduct biannually, in May and November. This study is a little bit different. We ask CIOs around evaluations, awareness, planned evaluations, so think of this as pre-spend, right. So that's a major differentiator from the TSIS. That, and this study, really focuses on private emerging providers. We're really only focused on those really emerging private companies, say, like your Series B to Series G or H, whatever it may be, so, two big differences within those studies. And then today what we're really going to look at is the results from the Emerging Technology Study. Just a couple of quick things here. We had 811 CIOs participate, which represents about 380 billion in annual IT spend, so the results from this study matter. We had almost 75 Fortune 100s take it. So, again, we're really measuring how private emerging providers are doing in the largest organizations. And so today we're going to be reviewing notable sectors, but largely this survey tracks roughly 356 private technologies and frameworks. >> All right, guys, bring up the pie chart, the next slide. Now, Sagar, this is sort of a snapshot here, and it basically says that 44% of CIOs agree that COVID has decreased the organization's evaluation and utilization of emerging tech, despite what I mentioned, Eric Bradley's Venn, which suggested one CIO in particular said, "Hey, I always pick somebody in the lower left "of the magic quadrant." But, again, this is a static view. I know we have some other data, but take us through this, and how this compares to other surveys that you've done. >> No problem. So let's start with the high level takeaways. And I'll actually kind of get into to the point that Eric was debating, 'cause that point is true. It's just really how you kind of slice and dice the data to get to that. So, what you're looking at here, and what the overall takeaway from the Emerging Technology Study was, is, you know, you are going to see notable declines in POCs, of proof-of-concepts, any valuations because of COVID-19. Even though we had been communicating for quite some time, you know, the last few months, that there's increasing pressure for companies to further digitize with COVID-19, there are IT budget constraints. There is a huge pivot in IT resources towards supporting remote employees, a decrease in risk tolerance, and so that's why what you're seeing here is a rather notable number of CIOs, 44%, that said that they are decreasing their organization's evaluation and utilization of private emerging providers. So that is notable. >> Now, as you pointed out, you guys run this survey a couple of times a year. So now let's look at the time series. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. We can see how the sentiment has changed since last year. And, of course, we're isolating here on some of larger companies. So, take us through what this data means. >> No problem. So, how do we quantify what we just saw in the prior slide? We saw 44% of CIOs indicating that they are going to be decreasing their evaluations. But what exactly does that mean? We can pretty much determine that by looking at a lot of the data that we captured through our Emerging Technology Study. There's a lot going on in this slide, but I'll walk you through it. What you're looking at here is Fortune 1000 organizations, so we've really isolated the data to those organizations that matter. So, let's start with the teal, kind of green line first, because I think it's a little bit easier to understand. What you're looking at, Fortune 1000 evaluations, both planned and current, okay? And you're looking at a time series, one year ago and six months ago. So, two of the answer options that we provide CIOs in this survey, right, think about the survey as a grid, where you have seven answer options going horizontally, and then 300-plus vendors and technologies going vertically. For any given vendor, they can essentially indicate one of these options, two of them being on currently evaluating them or I plan to evaluate them in six months. So what you're looking at here is effectively the aggregate number, or the average number of Fortune 1000 evaluations. So if you look into May 2019, all the way on the left of that chart, that 24% roughly means that a quarter of selections made by Fortune 1000 of the survey, they selected plan to evaluate or currently evaluating. If you fast-forward six months, to the middle of the chart, November '19, it's roughly the same, one in four technologies that are Fortune 1000 selected, they indicated that I plan or am currently evaluating them. But now look at that big drop off going into May 2020, the 17%, right? So now one out of every six technologies, or one out of every selections that they made was an evaluation. So a very notable drop. And then if you look at the blue line, this is another answer option that we provided CIOs: I'm aware of the technology but I have no plans to evaluate. So this answer option essentially tracks awareness levels. If you look at the last six months, look at that big uptick from 44% to over 50%, right? So now, essentially one out of every two technologies, or private technologies that a CIO is aware of, they have no plans to evaluate. So this is going to have an impact on the general landscape, when we think about those private emerging providers. But there is one caveat, and, Dave, this is what you mentioned earlier, this is what Eric was talking about. The providers that are doing well are the ones that are work-from-home aligned. And so, just like a few years ago, we were really analyzing results based on are you cloud-native or are you Cloud-aligned, because those technologies are going to do the best, what we're seeing in the emerging space is now the same thing. Those emerging providers that enable organizations to maintain productivity for their employees, essentially allowing their employees to work remotely, those emerging providers are still doing well. And that is probably the second biggest takeaway from this study. >> So now what we're seeing here is this flight to perceive safety, which, to your point, Sagar, doesn't necessarily mean good news for all enterprise tech vendors, but certainly for those that are positioned for the work-from-home pivot. So now let's take a look at a couple of sectors. We'll start with information security. We've reported for years about how the perimeter's been broken down, and that more spend was going to shift from inside the moat to a distributed network, and that's clearly what's happened as a result of COVID. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. Sagar, you take us through this. >> No problem. And as you imagine, I think that the big theme here is zero trust. So, a couple of things here. And let me just explain this chart a little bit, because we're going to be going through a couple of these. What you're seeing on the X-axis here, is this is effectively what we're classifying as near term growth opportunity from all customers. The way we measure that effectively is we look at all the evaluations, current evaluations, planned evaluations, we look at people who are evaluated and plan to utilize these vendors. The more indications you get on that the more to the top right you're going to be. The more indications you get around I'm aware of but I don't plan to evaluate, or I'm replacing this early-stage vendor, the further down and on the left you're going to be. So, on the X-axis you have near term growth opportunity from all customers, and on the Y-axis you have near term growth opportunity from, really, the biggest shops in the world, your Global 2000, your Forbes Private 225, like Cargill, as an example, and then, of course, your federal agencies. So you really want to be positioned up and to the right here. So, the big takeaway here is zero trust. So, just a couple of things on this slide when we think about zero trust. As organizations accelerate their Cloud and Saas spend because of COVID-19, and, you know, what we were talking about earlier, Dave, remote work becomes the new normal, that perimeter security approach is losing appeal, because the perimeter's less defined, right? Apps and data are increasingly being stored in the Cloud. That, and employees are working remotely from everywhere, and they're accessing all of these items. And so what we're seeing now is a big move into zero trust. So, if we look at that chart again, what you're going to see in that upper right quadrant are a lot of identity and access management players. And look at the bifurcation in general. This is what we were talking about earlier in terms of the landscape not doing well. Most security vendors are in that red area, you know, in the middle to the bottom. But if you look at the top right, what are you seeing here? Unify ID, Auth0, WSO2, right, all identity and access management players. These are critical in your zero trust approach, and this is one of the few area where we are seeing upticks. You also see here BitSight, Lucideus. So that's going to be security assessment. You're seeing VECTRA and Netskope and Darktrace, and a few others here. And Cloud Security and IDPS, Intrusion Detection and Prevention System. So, very few sectors are seeing an uptick, very few security sectors actually look pretty good, based on opportunities that are coming. But, essentially, all of them are in that work-from-home aligned security stack, so to speak. >> Right, and of course, as we know, as we've been reporting, buyers have options, from both established companies and these emerging companies that are public, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler. We've seen the work-from-home pivot benefit those guys, but even Palo Alto Networks, even CISCO, I asked (other speaker drowns out speech) last week, I said, "Hey, what about this pivot to work from home? "What about this zero trust?" And he said, "Look, the reality is, yes, "a big part of our portfolio is exposed "to that traditional infrastructure, "but we have options for zero trust as well." So, from a buyer's standpoint, that perceived flight to safety, you have a lot of established vendors, and that clearly is showing up in your data. Now, the other sector that we want to talk about is database. We've been reporting a lot on database, data warehouse. So, why don't you take us through the next graphic here, if you would. >> Sagar: No problem. So, our theme here is that Snowflake is really separating itself from the pack, and, again, you can see that here. Private database and data warehousing vendors really continue to impact a lot of their public peers, and Snowflake is leading the way. We expect Snowflake to gain momentum in the next few years. And, look, there's some rumors that IPOing soon. And so when we think about that set-up, we like it, because as organizations transition away from hybrid Cloud architectures to 100% or near-100% public Cloud, Snowflake is really going to benefit. So they look good, their data stacks look pretty good, right, that's resiliency, redundancy across data centers. So we kind of like them as well. Redis Labs bring a DB and they look pretty good here on the opportunity side, but we are seeing a little bit of churn, so I think probably Snowflake and DataStax are probably our two favorites here. And again, when you think about Snowflake, we continue to think more pervasive vendors, like Paradata and Cloudera, and some of the other larger database firms, they're going to continue seeing wallet and market share losses due to some of these emerging providers. >> Yeah. If you could just keep that slide up for a second, I would point out, in many ways Snowflake is kind of a safer bet, you know, we talk about flight to safety, because they're well-funded, they're established. You can go from zero to Snowflake very quickly, that's sort of their mantra, if you will. But I want to point out and recognize that it is somewhat oranges and tangerines here, Snowflake being an analytical database. You take MariaDB, for instance, I look at that, anyway, as relational and operational. And then you mentioned DataStax. I would say Couchbase, Redis Labs, Aerospike. Cockroach is really a... EValue Store. You've got some non-relational databases in there. But we're looking at the entire sector of databases, which has become a really interesting market. But again, some of those established players are going to do very well, and I would put Snowflake on that cusp. As you pointed out, Bloomberg broke the story, I think last week, that they were contemplating an IPO, which we've known for a while. >> Yeah. And just one last thing on that. We do like some of the more pervasive players, right. Obviously, AWS, all their products, Redshift and DynamoDB. Microsoft looks really good. It's just really some of the other legacy ones, like the Teradatas, the Oracles, the Hadoops, right, that we are going to be impacted. And so the claw providers look really good. >> So, the last decade has really brought forth this whole notion of DevOps, infrastructure as code, the whole API economy. And that's the piece we want to jump into now. And there are some real stand-outs here, you know, despite the early data that we showed you, where CIOs are less prone to look at emerging vendors. There are some, for instance, if you bring up the next chart, guys, like Hashi, that really are standing out, aren't they? >> That's right, Dave. So, again, what you're seeing here is you're seeing that bifurcation that we were talking about earlier. There are a lot of infrastructure software vendors that are not positioned well, but if you look at the ones at the top right that are positioned well... We have two kind of things on here, starting with infrastructure automation. We think a winner here is emerging with Terraform. Look all the way up to the right, how well-positioned they are, how many opportunities they're getting. And for the second straight survey now, Terraform is leading along their peers, Chef, Puppet, SaltStack. And they're leading their peers in so many different categories, notably on allocating more spend, which is obviously very important. For Chef, Puppet and SaltStack, which you can see a little bit below, probably a little bit higher than the middle, we are seeing some elevator churn levels. And so, really, Terraform looks like they're kind of separating themselves. And we've got this great quote from the CIO just a few months ago, on why Terraform is likely pulling away, and I'll read it out here quickly. "The Terraform tool creates "an entire infrastructure in a box. "Unlike vendors that use procedural languages, "like Ants, Bull and Chef, "it will show you the infrastructure "in the way you want it to be. "You don't have to worry about "the things that happen underneath." I know some companies where you can put your entire Amazon infrastructure through Terraform. If Amazon disappears, if your availability drops, load balancers, RDS, everything, you just run Terraform and everything will be created in 10 to 15 minutes. So that shows you the power of Terraform and why we think it's ranked better than some of the other vendors. >> Yeah, I think that really does sum it up. And, actually, guys, if you don't mind bringing that chart back up again. So, a point out, so, Mitchell Hashimoto, Hashi, really, I believe I'm correct, talking to Stu about this a little bit, he sort of led the Terraform project, which is an Open Source project, and, to your point, very easy to deploy. Chef, Puppet, Salt, they were largely disrupted by Cloud, because they're designed to automate deployment largely on-prem and DevOps, and now Terraform sort of packages everything up into a platform. So, Hashi actually makes money, and you'll see it on this slide, and things, Vault, which is kind of their security play. You see GitLab on here. That's really application tooling to deploy code. You see Docker containers, you know, Docker, really all about open source, and they've had great adoption, Docker's challenge has always been monetization. You see Turbonomic on here, which is application resource management. You can't go too deep on these things, but it's pretty deep within this sector. But we are comparing different types of companies, but just to give you a sense as to where the momentum is. All right, let's wrap here. So maybe some final thoughts, Sagar, on the Emerging Technology Study, and then what we can expect in the coming month here, on the update in the Technology Spending Intention Study, please. >> Yeah, no problem. One last thing on the zero trust side that has been a big issue that we didn't get to cover, is VPN spend. Our data is pointing that, yes, even though VPN spend did increase the last few months because of remote work, we actually think that people are going to move away from that as they move onto zero trust. So just one last point on that, just in terms of overall thoughts, you know, again, as we cover it, you can see how bifurcated all these spaces are. Really, if we were to go sector by sector by sector, right, storage and block chain and MLAI and all that stuff, you would see there's a few or maybe one or two vendors doing well, and the majority of vendors are not seeing as many opportunities. And so, again, are you work-from-home aligned? Are you the best vendor of all the other emerging providers? And if you fit those two criteria then you will continue seeing POCs and evaluations. And if you don't fit that criteria, unfortunately, you're going to see less opportunities. So think that's really the big takeaway on that. And then, just in terms of next steps, we're already transitioning now to our next Technology Spending Intention Survey. That launched last week. And so, again, we're going to start getting a feel for how CIOs are spending in 2H-20, right, so, for the back half of the year. And our question changes a little bit. We ask them, "How do you plan on spending in the back half year "versus how you actually spent "in the first half of the year, or 1H-20?" So, we're kind of, tighten the screw, so to speak, and really getting an idea of what's spend going to look like in the back half, and we're also going to get some updates as it relates to budget impacts from COVID-19, as well as how vendor-relationships have changed, as well as business impacts, like layoffs and furloughs, and all that stuff. So we have a tremendous amount of data that's going to be coming in the next few weeks, and it should really prepare us for what to see over the summer and into the fall. >> Yeah, very excited, Sagar, to see that. I just wanted to double down on what you said about changes in networking. We've reported with you guys on NPLS networks, shifting to SD-WAN. But even VPN and SD-WAN are being called into question as the internet becomes the new private network. And so lots of changes there. And again, very excited to see updated data, return of post-COVID, as we exit this isolation economy. Really want to point out to folks that this is not a snapshot survey, right? This is an ongoing exercise that ETR runs, and grateful for our partnership with you guys. Check out ETR.plus, that's the ETR website. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. Sagar, thanks so much for coming on. Once again, great to have you. >> Thank you so much, for having me, Dave. I really appreciate it, as always. >> And thank you for watching this episode of theCube Insights, powered by ETR. This Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> From around the globe. It's theCUBE, with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020. brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier here in the DockerCon virtual studios. It's CUBE studios it's theCUBE virtual meets DuckerCon 2020 virtual event with my coach, Jenny Barocio and Peter McKee, as well as Brett Fisher, over on the captains who's doing his sessions. This is the wrap up of the long day of continuous amazing action packed DockerCon 2020. Jenny and Peter, what a day we still got the energy. We can go another 24 hours, let's do it now. This is a wrap up. So exciting day, tons of sessions, great feedback. Twitter's on fire the chats and engagements are on fire, but this is the time where we do the most coveted piece, the community awards, so Jenny, this is the time for you to deliver the drum roll for the community awards, take it away. >> Okay, (mumbles) It's the past few years and have been able to recognize those in the community that deliver so much to everyone else. And even though we're wrapping up here, there is still other content going on because we just couldn't stop till five o'clock. Peter what's happening right now? >> Yeah, so over in the Devs in Action channel, we have earning Docker Daemon with rootless mode. That's still going on, should be a great talk. And then in the How To channel, we have transforming open source into live service with Docker. They're still running now, two great talks. >> Awesome, and then the captains are still going. I think they probably started the after party already, although this channel's going to wait till, you know, 30 more minutes for that one. So if you're an after party mode, definitely go check out after we announced the awards, Brett and Marcos and Jeff and the captain's channel. So, we have some great things to share. And I mentioned it in my last segment, but nothing happens without the collective community. DockerCon is no exception. So, I really just want to take a moment again to thank the Docker team, the attendees, our sponsors and our community leaders and captains. They've been all over the virtual conference today, just like they would have been at a real conference. And I love the energy. You know, as an organizer planning a virtual event, there's always the concern of how it's going to work. Right, this is new for lots of people, but I'm in Florida and I'm thrilled with how everyone showed up today. Yeah, for sure. And to the community done some excellent things, Marcus, over them in the Captain's channel, he has built out PWD play with Docker. So, if you haven't checked that out, please go check that out. We going to be doing some really great things with that. Adding some, I think I mentioned earlier in the day, but we're adding a lot of great content into their. A lot more labs, so, please go check that out. And then talking about the community leaders, you know, they bring a lot to the community. They put there their free time in, right? No one paying them. And they do it just out of sheer joy to give back to the community organizing events. I don't know if you ever organized an event Jenny I know you have, but they take a lot of time, right? You have to plan everything, you have to get sponsors, you have to find out place to host. And now with virtual, you have to figure out how you're going to deliver the feel of a meetup in virtually. And we just had our community summit the other day and we heard from the community leaders, what they're doing, they're doing some really cool stuff. Live streaming, Discord, pulling in a lot of tools to be able to kind of recreate that, feel of being together as a community. So super excited and really appreciate all the community leaders for putting in the extra effort one of these times. >> Yeah, for really adapting and continuing in their mission and their passion to share and to teach. So, we want to recognize a few of those awesome community leaders. And I think we get to it right now Peter, are you ready? >> Set, let's go for it, right away. >> All right, so, the first community leaders are from Docker Bangalore and they are rocking it. Sangam Biradar, Ajeet singh Raina and Saiyam Pathak, thank you all so much for your commitment to this community. >> All right, and the next one we have is Docker Panang. Thank you so much to Sujay Pillai, did a great job. >> Got to love that picture and that shirt, right? >> Yeah. >> All right, next up, we'd love to recognize Docker Rio, Camila Martins, Andre Fernande, long time community leaders. >> Yeah, if I ever get a chance that's. I have a bunch of them that I want to go travel and visit but Rio is on top of list I think. >> And then also-- >> Rio maybe That could be part of the award, it's, you get to. >> I can deliver. >> Go there, bring them their awards in person now, as soon as we can do that again. >> That would be awesome, that'd be awesome. Okay, the next one is Docker Guatemala And Marcos Cano, really appreciate it and that is awesome. >> Awesome Marcos has done, has organized and put on so many meetups this last year. Really, really amazing. All right, next one is Docker Budapest and Lajos Papp, Karoly Kass and Bence Lvady, awesome. So, the mentorship and leadership coming out of this community is fantastic and you know, we're so thrilled to write, now is you. >> All right, and then we go to Docker Algeria. Yeah we got some great all over the country it's so cool to see. But Ayoub Benaissa, it's been great look at that great picture in background, thank you so much. >> I think we need we need some clap sound effects here. >> Yeah where's Beth. >> I'm clapping. >> Lets, lets. >> Alright. >> Last one, Docker Chicago, Mark Panthofer. After Chicago, Docker Milwaukee and Docker Madison one meet up is not enough for Mark. So, Mark, thank you so much for spreading your Docker knowledge throughout multiple locations. >> Yeah, and I'll buy half a Docker. Thank you to all of our winners and all of our community leaders. We really, really appreciate it. >> All right, and the next award I have the pleasure of giving is the Docker Captain's Award. And if you're not familiar with captains, Docker captains are recognized by Docker for their outstanding contributions to the community. And this year's winner was selected by his fellow captains for his tireless commitment to that community. On behalf of Docker and the captains. And I'm sure the many many people that you have helped, all 13.3 million of them on Stack Overflow and countless others on other platforms, the 2020 tip of the Captain's Hat award winner is Brandon Mitchell, so so deserving. And luckily Brandon made it super easy for me to put together this slide because he took his free DockerCon selfie wearing his Captains' Hat, so it worked out perfectly. >> Yeah, I have seen Brandon not only on Stack Overflow, but in our community Slack answering questions, just in the general area where everybody. The questions are random. You have everybody from intermediate to beginners and Brandon is always in there answering questions. It's a huge help. >> Yeah, always in there answering questions, sharing code, always providing feedback to the Docker team. Just such a great voice, both in and out for Docker. I mean, we're so proud to have you as a captain, Brandon. And I'm so excited to give you this award. All right, so, that was the most fun, right? We get to do the community awards. Do you want to do any sort of recap on the day? >> What was your favorite session? What was your favorite tweet? Favorite tweet was absolutely Peter screenshotting his parents. >> Mom mom my dear mom, it's sweet though, that's sweet. I appreciate it, can't believe they gave me an award. >> Yeah, I mean, have they ever seen you do a work presentation before? >> No, they've seen me lecture my kids a lot and I can go on about life's lessons and then I'm not sure if it's the same thing but yeah. >> I don't think so. >> No they have never see me. >> Peter you got to get the awards for the kids. That's the secret to success, you know, and captain awards and the community household awards for the kids. >> Yeah, well I am grooming my second daughter, she teaches go to afterschool kids and never thought she would be interested in programming cause when she was younger she wasn't interested in, but yes, super interested in now I have to, going to bring her into the community now, yeah. >> All right, well, great awards. Jenny is there any more awards, we good on the awards? >> Nope, we are good on the awards, but certainly not the thank yous is for today. It's an absolute honor to put on an event like this and have the community show up, have our speakers show up have the Docker team show up, right? And I'm just really thrilled. And I think the feedback has been phenomenal so far. And so I just really want to thank our speakers and our sponsors and know that, you know, while DockerCon may be over, like what we did today here and it never ends. So, thank you, let's continue the conversation. There's still things going on and tons of sessions on demand now, you can catch up, okay. >> One more thing, I have to remind everybody. I mentioned it earlier, but I got to say it again go back, watch the keynote. And I'll say at this time there is an Easter egg in there. I don't think anybody's found it yet. But if you do, tweet me and might be a surprise. >> Well you guys-- >> Are you watching your tweet feed right now? Because you're going to get quite a few. >> Yeah, it's probably blowing up right now. >> Well you got to get on a keynote deck for sure. Guys, it's been great, you guys have been phenomenal. It's been a great partnership, the co-creation this event. And again, what's blows me away is the global reach of the event, the interaction, the engagement and the cost was zero to attend. And that's all possible because of the sponsors. Again, shout out to Amazon web services, Microsoft Azure Engine X, Cockroach Labs and sneak of Platinum sponsors. And also we had some ecosystem sponsors. And if you liked the event, go to the sponsors and say hello and say, thank you. They're all listed on the page, hit their sessions and they really make it possible. So, all this effort on all sides have been great. So, awesome, I learned a lot. Thanks everyone for watching. Peter you want to get a final word and then I'll give Jenny the final, final word. >> No again, yes, thank you, thank you everybody. It's been great, theCUBE has been phenomenal. People behind the scenes has been just utterly professional. And thank you Jenny, if anybody doesn't know, you guys don't know how much Jenny shepherds this whole process through she's our captain internally making sure everything stays on track and gets done. You cannot even imagine what she does. It's incredible, so thank you, Jenny. I really, really appreciate it. >> Jenny, take us home, wrap this up 2020, dockerCon. >> All Right. >> In the books, but it's going to be on demand. It's 365 days a year now, come on final word. >> It's not over, it's not over. Community we will see you tomorrow. We will continue to see you, thank you to everyone. I had a great day, I hope everyone else did too. And happy DockerCon 2020, see you next year. >> Okay, that's a wrap, see on the internet, everyone. I'm John, for Jenny and Peter, thank you so much for your time and attention throughout the day. If you were coming in and out, remember, go see those sessions are on a calendar, but now they're a catalog of content and consume and have a great evening. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.