(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.

(upbeat techno music) >> From Union Square in downtown San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering PagerDuty Summit '18. Now, here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at PagerDuty summit in the Westin St. Francis, Union Square, San Francisco. We're excited to have our next guest, this guy likes to get into the weeds. We'll get some into the weeds, not too far in the weeds. Armon Dagar, he's a co-founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Armon, great to see you. >> Thanks so much for having me, Jeff. >> Absolutely, so you're just coming off your session so how did the session go? What did you guys cover? >> It's super good, I mean I think what we wanted to do was sort of take a broader look and not just talk too much just about monitoring and so the talk was really about zero trust networking. Sort of the what, the how, the why. >> Right, right, so that's very important topic. Did Bitcoin come up or blockchain? Or are you able to do zero trust with no blockchain? >> We were able to get through with no blockchain, thankfully I suppose. >> Right. >> But I think kind of the gist of it when we talk about, I think that the challenge is it's still sort of at that nascent point where people are like, okay, zero trust networking I've heard of it, I don't really know what it is or what mental category to put it in. So I think what we tried to do was sort not get too far in the weeds, as you know I tend to do but sort of start high level. >> Right, right. >> And say, what's the problem, right? And I think the problem is we live in this world today of traditional flat networks where, I have a castle and moat, right? I wrap my data center in four walls, all my traffic comes over a drawbridge, and you're either on the outside and you're bad and untrusted or your on the inside and you're good and trusted. And so what happens when a bad guy gets in, right? >> Right. >> It's sort of this all or nothing model, right? >> But now we know, the bad guys are going to get in, right? It's only a function of time, right? >> Right, and I think you see it with the Target breech, the Neiman Marcus breech, the Google breech, right? The list sort of goes on, right? It's like, Equifax, right? It's a bad idea to assume they never get in. (laughing) >> If you assume they get in, so then, if you know the bad guys are going to get in, you got to bake that security in all different levels of your applications, your data, all over the place. >> Exactly. >> So what are some of the things you guys covered in the session? >> So I think the core of it is really saying how do we get to a point where we don't trust our network, where we assume the attacker will get on the network and then what? How do you design around that assumption, right? And what you really have to do is push identity everywhere, right? So every application has to say, I'm a web server and I'm connecting to a database, and is this allowed, right? Is a web server allowed to talk to the database? And that's really the crux of what Google calls Beyond Crop, what other people call sort of zero trust networking, is this idea of identity based where I'm saying it's not IP one talking to IP two, it's web server talking to database. >> Right, right, because then you've got all the role and rules and everything associated at that identity level? >> Bingo, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly, and I think what's made that very hard historically is when we say, what do you have at the network? You have IPs and ports. So how do we get to a point where we know one thing is a web server and one thing's a database, right? >> Right. >> And I think the crux of the challenge there, is kind of three pieces, right? You need application identity. You have to say this is a web server, this is a database. You need to distribute certificates to them and say, you get a certificate that says you're a web server, you get a certificate that says you're a database and you have to enforce that access, right? So everyone can't just randomly talk to each other. >> Right, well then what about context too, right? Because context is another piece that maybe somebody takes advantage of and has access to the identity but is using it in way or there's an interaction that's kind of atypical to what's expected behavior, it just doesn't make sense. So context really matters quite a bit as well. >> Yeah, you're super, super right and I think this is where it gets into not only do we need to assign identity to the applications but how do we tie that back into sort of rich access controls of who's allowed to do what, audit trails of, okay it seems odd, this web server that never connects to this database suddenly out of the blue doing so, why? >> Right, right. >> And do we need to react to it? Do we need to change the rule? Do we need to investigate what's going on? >> Right. >> But you're right. It's like, that context is important of what's expected versus what's unexpected. >> Right, then you have this other X factor called shared infrastructure and hybrid cloud and I've got apps running on AWS, I've got apps running at Google, I've got apps running at Microsoft, I got apps running in the database, I've got some dev here, I've got some prod here. You know that adds another little X factor to the zero trust. (laughing) >> Yeah, I think I aptly heard it called once, we have a service mess on our hands, right? (laughing) >> Right, right. >> We have this stuff so sort of sprawled everywhere now, how do we wrangle it? How do we get our hands around it? And so as much as I think service mess is a play on sort of the language, I think this is where that emerging category of service mesh does make sense. >> Right. >> It's really looking at that and saying, okay, I'm going to have stuff in private cloud, public cloud, maybe multiple public cloud providers, how do I treat all of that in a uniform way? I want to know what's running where. I want to have rules around who can talk to who. >> Right. >> And that's a big focus for us with Console, in terms of, how do we have a consistent way of knowing what's running where a consistent set of rules around who can talk to who. >> Right. >> And do it across all these hybrid environments, right? >> Right, right, but wait, don't buy it yet, there's more. (laughing) Because then I've got all the APIs right? So now you've got all this application integration, many of which are with cloud based applications. So now you've got that complexity and you're pulling all these bits and connections from different infrastructures, different applications, some in house, some outside, so how do you bring some organization to that madness? >> No, that's a super good question. If you ever want to role change, take a look at our marketing department, you've got this down. (laughing) You know, I would say what it comes down to a heterogeneity is going to be fundamental, right? You're going to have folks that are going to operate different tools, different technologies for whatever reasons, right? Might be a historical choice, might be just they have better relations with a particular vendor. So our view has been, how do you inter op with all these things? Part of it is focus on open source. Part of it is focus on API driven. Part of it is focused on you have to do API integrations with all these systems because you're never going to get sort of the end user to standardize everything on a single platform. >> Right, right. It's funny, we were at a show talking about RPA, robotic process automation, and they, they treat those processes as employees in the fact that they give them identities. >> Right. >> So they can manage them. You hire them, you turn 'em on, they work for you for a while and then you might want to turn them off after they're done whatever doing, that you've put them in place for. But literally they were treating them as an employee. >> Right. >> Treating them with like an employee lead identity that they could have all the assigned rules and restrictions to then let the RPA do what it was supposed to do. It's like interesting concept. >> Yeah, and I think it mirrors I think what we see in a lot of different spaces which is what we were maybe managing before was the sort of very physical thing. Maybe it was we called it Robot 1234, right? Or in the same way we might say, this is server at IP 1234. >> Right. >> On our network. And so we're managing this really physical unit, whether it's an IP, a machine, a serial number. How do we take up the level of abstraction and instead say, you know actually all of these machines, whether IP one, IP two, IP three, they're a web server and whether it's robots one, two or three, they're a door attach, right? >> Right, right. >> And so now we start talking about identity and it gives us this more powerful abstraction to sort of talk about these underlying bits. >> Right. >> And I think it sort of follows the history of everything, right? Which is like how do we add new layers of abstraction that let us manage the complexity that we have? >> Right, right, so it's interesting right in Ray Kurzweil's keynote earlier today, hopefully you saw that, he talked about, basically exponential curves and that's really what we're facing so the amount of data, the amount of complexity is only going to increase dramatically. We're trying to virtualize so much of this and abstract it away but then that adds a different layer of management. At the same time, you're going to have a lot more horsepower to work with on the compute side, so is it kind of like the old Wintel, I got a faster PC, it's getting eaten up by more windows? I mean, do you see the automation being able to keep up with kind of the increasing layers of abstraction? >> Yeah, I mean I think there's a grain of that. Are we losing, just because we're getting access to more resources are we using it more efficiently? I think there's some fairness in, with each layer of abstraction we're sort of introduction additional performance cost, sort of to reduce that, but I think overall what we might be doing is increasing the amount of compute tenfold, but adding a 5% additional management fee, so it's still, I think it's still net and net we're able to do much more productive work, go to much bigger scale but only if you have the right abstractions, right? And I think that's where this kind of stuff comes in is, okay great, I'm going to have 10 times as many machines, how do I deal with the fact that my current security model barely works at my current scale? How do I go to 10x the scale? Or if I'm pointing and clicking to provision a machine, how does that work when I'm going to manage a thousand machines, right? >> Yeah. >> You have to bring in additional tooling and automation and sort of think about it at the next higher level. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's all, all part of this process of adopting cloud and sort of getting that leverage. >> It's so interesting, just the whole scale discussion because at the end of the day, right, scale wins and there's a great interview with James Hamilton from AWS, and it's old, but he's talking about kind of scale and he talks about how many server that were sold in this whatever calendar year it was, versus how many mobile phones were sold and it's many ores of magnitude different and the fact that he's thinking in terms of these types of scales as opposed to, you know, which was a big number in the service sales side, but really the scale challenge introduced by these giant clouds and Facebook and the like really changed the game fundamentally in how do you manage these things. >> Totally, totally and I think that's been our view at HashiCorp, is that when you talk about about kinds of the tidal shift of infrastructure from on premise, relatively static VMware centric to AWS, plus Azure, plus Google, plus VMware, it's not just a change of, okay it's of one server here to one server there. It's like going from one server here to 50 servers that I'm changing at every other day rather than every other year, right? >> Right, right. >> And so it's this sort of order of magnitude of scale but also an order of magnitude in terms of sort of the rate of change as well. >> Right, right. >> And I think that puts downward pressure on how do I provision? How do I secure? How do I deploy applications? How do I secure all of this stuff, right? >> Right. >> I think ever layer of the infrastructure gets hit by this change. >> Right, right, alright so you're a smart guy. You're always looking forward. What are some of the things you're working on down the road? Big challenges that you're looking forward to tackling? >> Oh, okay, that's fun. I mean I think the biggest challenge is how do we get this stuff to be simpler for people to use? Because I think what we're going through is you get this sort of see-saw effect, right? Which is okay, we're getting access to all this new hardware, all this new compute, all these new APIs, but it's not getting simpler, right? >> Right, right. >> It's getting exponentially more complicated. >> Right, right. >> And so I think part of it is how do we go back to sort of looking at what's the core of drivers here? It's like, okay well we want to make it easier for people to deliver and deploy their applications, let's go back to sort of, in some sense, the drawing board, say how do we abstract all of these new goodies that we've been given but make it consumable and easy to learn? Because otherwise, you know, what's the point? It's like, here's a catalog of 50,000 things and no one knows how to use any of it. >> Right, right, right. (laughing) Yeah it's funny, I'm waiting for that next abstraction for AWS, instead of the big giant slide that Andy shows every year. (laughing) It's just that I just want to plug in and you figure out. >> Right. >> What connects on the backend. I can't even hardly read that stuff-- >> Maybe AI will save us. >> Let's hope so. Alright Armon, well thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day and sitting down with us. >> My pleasure, thanks so much, Jeff. >> Alright, he's Armon, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at PagerDuty Summit in downtown San Francisco, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are live in Austin, Texas for CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, not to be confused with CUBE, 'cause we don't have a CUBE Con yet, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Next is Armon Dadgar who is the founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. So we interviewed your partner in crime Mitchell years ago, and we were riffing in our studio in Palo Alto, and essentially we laid out microsurfaces and all the stuff that's being worked on today. So, congratulations, you guys were right in your bet? >> It's funny to see how the reaction has changed over the last few years. Back then it used to be, we'd go in and it's like, people are like, did you catch a load of those crazy people who came in and talked about microsurfaces, and immutable, and cloud? It's like, get out of here. And now it's funny to be here at KubeCon, and it's like-- >> Well it was fun days back then, it was the purest in DevOps, and I say purest, I mean people who were really cutting their teeth into the new methodology, the new way to develop, the new way to kind of roll out scale, a lot of the challenges involved. Certainly, now it's gone mainstream. >> Armon: Yeah. >> You're seeing no doubt about it, I just came back from re:Invent, from AWS, Lambda, Server List. You got application developers that just don't want to deal with any infrastructure. That's infrastructure as code in the DevOps ethos, and then you got a lot of people in the infrastructure plumbing, and App plumbing world, who actually care about all this stuff, provisioning. So, how are you guys fitting into the new landscape? You guys riding along? Were you guys the first ones paddling out to these waves? How do you guys at HashiCorp look at all this growth? >> So the way we think about it is, I think there's a lot of market confusion right now, just because there's so much happening, and I mean, even just being here it's like, almost overwhelming to just like understand what exactly is this market landscape evolving to? And the way we're thinking about it is, there's really these four discrete layers with the four different people that are involved in tech, right? We have, on one side, we have our IT operators that are just trying to get a handle around, how do I provision things in Amazon, and now I have business groups coming and saying, okay I want to provision in Google, cloud and Azure. How do I really do that in way that I don't lose my sanity? You have your security people who are saying, I've lost my network perimeter, now what? Like, how do I think about secret management, and app identity, and this brave new world of cloud. You have your app developers who are like, I don't care about any of that, just give me a platform where I can push deploy and out the gate it goes, and you deal with it. And then you have the folks that are kind of making it all kind of plug together and work, the networking backbone, who is saying okay, before it was F5 and Juniper and Cisco. What does it mean for me as I'm going cloud? So, the way we're sorting of seeing ourself involved in all of this is, how do we help operators sort of get a handle around the provisioning side, with things like Terraform? How do we help the security folks with tools like Volt? How do we complement things like Kubernetes at the runtime layer, or provide our solution with Nomad, and then on the networking side, how do we provide a consistent service discovery experience with Consul? >> So you guys are really just now just kind of riding in with everybody else, kind of welcoming everybody to the party, if you will. (Armon laughs) What's the big surprise for you as you guys, you know it's not new to you guys, but as you see it evolving, what's jumping out at you? I mean, we're hearing service mesh, pluggable architectures. What are some of the things that's popping out of the woodwork that you're excited about? >> Honestly, the thing that I'm excited about is the excitement about infrastructure, right? I mean, when we started four, five years ago, it was an ice cold market. You'd go and talk to people, like, let's talking about how you're doing provisioning, or your deployment, or how your developers push things, and people were like, do we really have to? Like, let me get a coffee. And now it's like the opposite. It's like people are so excited to talk about the infrastructure, the bits and bytes of it, and I think that for us is probably the most exciting thing. So, whether you come here, and it's like the vibe is electric, right? Like, you guys can attest to it. It's crazy to see the growth of it, and so what's exciting for us is now these conversations are being lit up all across industry. >> Yeah. >> So whether you're talking about hey, how do I provision a thing on cloud, to what's a scheduler and how does that help me, there is this tremendous interest in it. >> Yeah, Armon, take us inside. You talked about, you know, it used to be kind of, we would be talking, is infrastructure boring? What is that change that's happening in customers? Has it just reached a certain maturity level, that now the business, they need to move faster, and therefore I need to adopt these kinds of architectures? What are you seeing when you're talking to customers? >> Yeah, I think that, the sort of, we heard that, the sort of, the line a few times is it's becoming boring, but I think what, and sometimes that's the goal, right? All of these tools, all of infrastructure is plumbing, at the end of the day, right? At the end of the day, the applications of the end users is really what should be, sort of, the exciting bit. And so, it's our responsibility, sort of, as the vendors here in the community, working on the infrastructure, to make the stuff boring. And I think, in that case, what we really mean is that it should be so reliable, so well documented, so scalable that it's brain dead to operate these things. And I think, step one is, let's get people excited about what's the state of the possible, what's the art of the possible in terms of, what do I get in terms of business agility of adopting stuff? Once people start adopting it, let's make it boring for them. Let's make them sure they don't regret it, and that they actually see those benefits. >> Well, it's reliable too. Boring equals reliability. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Yeah, it's interesting. When you walk through the provision, secure, connect, and run, it reminded me a little bit of Chen talking in the Keynote this morning about kind of the stack they see Kubernetes playing. >> Armon: Totally. >> You know, there's some people who will probably look, well, HashiCorp, you guys, you have a platform. You've got some of these projects. Is that, what's compatible, what's replaceable? What's the connection between what you are doing and what's happening in this space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, think a lot of people are like "Is it odd for HashiCorp to be here?" And I think it goes back to our lens on this market, Which is. we want to provide tools that are sort of discrete in each of these categories and we fully know that customers are not going to go all in on HashiCorp and say, I want all four layers, right? A lot of our customers are Kubernetes users. And so, for us the mission is, okay great, how do we make sure Terraform plays nice with Kubernetes? How do we make sure Vault plays nice? So I actually have a session in about an hour and a half here, talking about Vault integration with Kubernetes. And then, we have a developer advocate talking about using Console with Kubernetes as well. So for us, it's really a play nice story. How do we make all of these work together. >> It's a rising-tide-that-floats-all-boats market, I mean this is what's happening. You guys are actors in the ecosystem. It's not a land grab. No-one can own the stack. That's the whole point of this ecosystem, isn't it? >> It's so big, right, this market that we are talking about is so enormous. It's every organization writing software. (laughing) >> All right, give us the update on HashiCorp. What's going on, what's the latest and greatest you guys are out starting? We interviewed you guys about, I think three years ago, maybe four. Can't even remember now at this point. It seems like a blur. >> Yeah, I mean, so two months ago was our big HashiCom for our user com friends. And for us, the focus has really been saying okay, we've got our initial set of open-source tools out on the market in 2015. And we said okay, lets take a pause. There's already so many tools, lets just focus on how do we make the practitioners successful with each of these things and really go deep on all of them. And so, with things like Terraform, we've been partnering with all the various cloud providers, right, to say how do we have first class support for Azure, and Google Cloud and Amazon and make sure that you know, as you're adopting these clouds, Terraform meet you there. And then with things like Vault it's how do we integrate with every platform companies want to be on. So if you're using Kubernetes, how do we make sure Vault meets you there and integrates? So, for us that's been the focus, is staying sort of focused on the six core tools, and saying, "How do we make sure "they're staying up to date as technology moves?" And sort of deepening them. >> Yeah, because your users are going to be leveraging a lot of the new stuff. They're going to be, Kubernetes has certainly been great. What's your take on Kubernetes, if you can just take a minute to just, I mean, not new to this notion of runtime and orchestration. We talked about it with Mitchell in our session years ago, we didn't actually say Kubernetes, it wasn't around then, but we talked about the middleware of the cloud. That was our discussion, and that was essentially called Pass at that time, but now, no one talks about Pass any more, it's all kind of one. >> Right, right. >> What's your take on Kubernetes? How do you feel about it? What is it to you? >> Right, yeah, I think that's, so I think, twofold: I think what's exciting for me about it is, it reminds me in some sense like what Docker did for the industry, which, if we went to sort of the pre-Docker world nobody talked about immutable artifact based deploys. It was like this esoteric thing and then all of a sudden over night Docker made it popular. Whereas like, oh yeah, of course everything should be immutable and artifact based. And then when you look at what Kubernetes has done, it's built on that momentum to say, okay, that was step one. Step two is to say, you really should think about all your machines as a sort of shared pool of resources and move the abstraction up to the application to the service and think about, I'm deploying a service, I'm not deploying a set of VMs. And so it's been this sort of tidal shift in how IT thinks about deploying and delivering in application. It actually should be focused on the service. Focus on sort of abstracting away the machine, and that's super exciting. >> And what do you think the benefits will be with the impact of the marketplace? Faster development, I mean, what's some of the impact that you see coming out of this to go to the next level? >> Yeah, I mean the impact for me is really saying, when we really look at these approaches, in some sense they are not new, if you look at what Google's been doing since the early 2000s with Board, what Amazon's been doing, what Facebook's been doing internally. These big tech companies have showed if you are able to move up the abstraction and provide this higher level of utility to developers, you can support tens of thousands of services, innovate much more quickly, and for a while, that was sort of trapped in these big tech companies. And I think what Kubernetes is really doing is bringing that to everybody else and saying, actually adopting the same strategy lets you have that, right? >> Yeah, its a maturation of open source of this generation. You look at what Lyft, Uber are doing. Look at the Open Tracing for instance, pretty interesting stuff, because I mean they had to build their own stuff. >> Armon: Right. >> At scale, massive scale. Not like, you know, hundreds of thousands of services, millions of transactions a second. >> Armon: Right. >> I mean, that's daunting. >> That's daunting. >> Okay, so your take on open source. Okay, because now we're seeing a new generation of developers coming online. I've been saying it's been, a renaissance is coming. More of an artisan, a craft coming back to craftsmanship of coding. Not like UX Design side, become a craft in code. So you got a new, younger generation coming up. They don't even know what a load balancer is. >> Right. But they're happy not to deal with that as you said. And then you've got open source growing exponentially. Jim Zemlin at the Linux Foundation is saying 10% of the IP is going to be unique to the company. The rest is going to be that sandwich of open source. That's exponential growth. >> Right. >> You get exponential growth, new wave of software developers. You're a young gun, what's your view of the future? >> I mean, its funny, because it's like that first derivative is going exponential. The second derivative is going exponential. You know, I think we're going to see more and more innovation at the, ultimately what it's really about is delivering at the end application layer, right? Like, we're all here to be plumbing, right, and so the better we can be at being plumbing, the better the application developers can be at delivering innovation there. And so, I totally agree that the trend is going to go 90/10. And I think that was partly one of the reasons we started HashiCorp, because we'd look around and we're like it's insane that you have 30 to 50% of these companies doing platform engineering that's completely undifferentiated from anyone else. It's like you're deploying on the same vSphere VM as your competitor but you're rebuilding the whole platform. It's crazy, it's like you should have used an open source tool and focused on the application and not how to boot a vSphere into it. >> And the impact cost and time. >> Armon, one of the things we talk about, the only thing constant in this industry is that the pace of change keeps increasing. How are you dealing internally? How are customers doing? I think back two years, a year and a half ago I talked to a guy who was like, "Oh, Vagrant is like my favorite thing, "I've been using it ever." Now I talk to lots of customers that are, Vault is critical to their stacks that they're doing. HashiCorp looks very different than they did two years ago. How's that pace of change happening internally and with customers? >> Totally, and I think part of what we've done as actually since 2015 we haven't really introduced brand new products because our feeling is that it's becoming so confusing for the end users to really navigate this landscape. So, in 2015 we thought the landscape was confusing. Today it's multiplied by 100 or 1,000. >> We were at Amazon last week, we understand. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think honestly I think that is, when you look around here I think that's one of the challenges we're facing as an industry, is I go and meet with customers who are like, "Every time I refresh Hacker News, "there's 50 new things I need to go evaluate." It's like I don't know where to even begin. And its like, as a vendor I have a hard time keeping up with space, you know. I empathize with the end user who, it's not their full time job to do that. So, our goal has been to say how do we better distill at least the HashiCorp universe in terms of hey, here's how our pieces fit together and here's how we relate to everything else in the ecosystem, and kind of give our end users a map of okay, what tools play nice, how do these things sort of work together. But I think as a bigger industry we have a bit of an issue around the sheer amount of sort of innovation. How do we curate that and really make it more accessible? >> Armon, I've got to ask you a personal question. Obviously you guys are entrepreneurs doing a great job. Been following you guys, congratulations by the way. What are you most proud of as you look back and what do you wish you could do over? If you could get a mulligan and say "Okay, I want to do that differently." >> How much time do we have by the way? (laughing) >> 10 seconds, I'm going to ask you the parachute question next, go ahead. >> You know, I think the thing we're most proud of might be Terraform. I think it's fun to see sort of the level of ubiquity and the standardization that is taking place around it. Ah, the thing I wish we could take back is you know, probably our Otto project. I think the scope was so big for that thing and I think our eyes were probably a little wider than they should have been on that one. So I wish we had not committed to that one. >> You reign it in, catch the mistakes early. Okay, final question for you. You're a large customer and the plane is going down, you have 10 seconds to pick a parachute. Amazon, Azure or Google. Which one do you grab? >> Ooh. >> Go. >> You know, probably Amazon. No one ever gets fired for choosing Amazon. >> All right well Jeff Frick on our CUBE team said, "I'd take all three and call it Multi Cloud." >> That's the right answer. Armon, thanks for coming on appreciate it. Congratulations on your success at HashiCorp. >> My pleasure, thanks so much for having me. >> Got HashiCorp here on theCUBE, CTO and co-founder on theCUBE, Riding The Wave, CloudNative, Kupernetes, lot of great stuff happening. Microservices and containers. It's theCUBE doing our part here at KubeCon. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furr, your host of The Cube. We had a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Meor Ma Makowski, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloudnative at scale. So enjoy the program. See you soon. Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube. A pleasure to have here, me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having me. >>So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good, in a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of microsites, these microsites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think supercloud is a, is an appropriate term for that. >>So you brought a couple of things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, ot, and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infras infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deploy a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So I, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this chain, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors are their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native. You know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is in when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and pos from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem, another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. Very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the site of those clusters, security policies, your middleware, plug-ins, and finally your applications. So what our LA you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, what >>Would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Our line, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what arlon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for >>Those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. See c i CD pipe pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both >>Those teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer's. That's right. The option teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, ES really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, s clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined a declarative way, and Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>And do I want to get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or on-prem model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fision, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also open source, because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that long. But that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating met metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer. Yep. Why should I be enthused about Arla? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo? I'm a >>Customer. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS c D pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Ops FICO would be delighted. The folks that we've talk, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on ecos Amazon, and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the >>Ability to, Yeah, I think people are scared. Not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest and used CD open source tools that's out there. Right's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Alon also makes use of Cluster api cappi, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what City can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, platform line has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy online at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that >>Sla. And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with that are familiar with, with Argo and then rlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo adn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our land before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customers' hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment, as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and you know, give you an inventory. And that will, >>So if customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value here. >>That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up, >>Well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables supercloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And you know, our alarm fills in >>One. Okay. So now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for that. >>So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this RLO solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they're designed to do, the question is, what did does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. Yeah. >>More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because they're the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the maybe terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards is saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are >>Just taking care of the CIO doesn't exist. There's no ciso, they're at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just the success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructure as code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah. And that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at AR GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community meeting by in two, they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or applications specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think that the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We remember pointing for many years now that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at Argo Con, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself. You can, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructures code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And is my workloads running effectively? So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, >>Right? So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's kinda like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Armon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, so >>Essentially standard creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook. You deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I could just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on, it's as super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring and saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Could be nice, it has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot road that CubeCon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform. Now you guys have been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud ERO team at that time. We would to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys tr pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example when the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud native of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers, >>Yeahs Azure, Google. >>You mean from a business perspective? Yeah, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep, >>Well they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes, that's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the the new risk and arm ecosystems and the platforms. >>Yeah, not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer, it's, it's hardware and he got software and you got middleware and he kind over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back on the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud clouds around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark. I put on on that panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's interest thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm? Yeah, right. >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you do on the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what we, we come into, >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were gonna talk about the glory days in 2000, 2001, when the first as piece application service providers came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloudlike. >>It wasn't, >>And and web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>I, in fact you, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflation's here. It's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. >>Nope. >>Cuz the pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing Infras infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools, It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Ante and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, more dynamic, more real. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pain, a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is to, as a pilots, to get the conversations flowing with with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration and then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the, what's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere else in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have won two, three container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here, it is in production at scale by many customers. And the beauty of it is, yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool >>And just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores are thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un OnPrem as an air gap version. >>Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your >>Customer? Right. So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I dunno, hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms but they really needed to bring the agility and they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact the customer says like, like the Maytag service person cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. >>What benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams cuz they're kind of too part of one theme, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right. >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams, >>You working two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side side, okay. >>Another customer like give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on, It's a classic edge. It's classic edge. Yeah. Right. They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a net box box, like a small little >>Box and all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage >>Thousands of them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. So >>You guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented where you, well >>Con of course Detroit's >>Coming here, so, so it's already there, right? So, so we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud native, you have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexities there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly them. >>And I'll give you an example. I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations of the, for the customer. >>Customer, the customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn >>Best car. To wrap it up, I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now the CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super >>Cloud. Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. Cars being been, been in an asp, been in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative that know that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce was interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think, and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of eCommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't made you an eCommerce or an E retailer or an e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Mascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Feer with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. >>Hello. Welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around the solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE covering Escape/19. (techno music) >> Hey welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the first inaugural, Multi-Cloud Conference in New York City. It's called Escape/2019. I'm here with Brendan O'Leary, Senior Solutions Architect with GitLab. Is that right, Senior Solutions Architect? >> Brendan: Close enough, Manager, you know. >> Manager, architect, you work at GitLab, you're technical, so we'll have a good chat here. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> First Multi-Cloud Conference, really we love to go to the inaugural anything. >> Sure. >> Just in case it's not around next year, we can say we were here. It looks like it's got some legs, some interesting conversations I see in the hallways. You know, you guys are a big part of this revolution. GitLab, your company, you're providing opensource repositories, free, to get people to get started, as well you got paid stuff, as well. Hot area. GitHub was acquired by Microsoft. Some say Microsoft's not going to meddle with that. We'll see, but still, a super-important part of the community that you guys are involved in. >> It's true. We're seeing this multi-cloud revolution, if you want to call it that, with a lot of our customers, right? It's no longer that you pick one cloud, and that's where everything's going to run. You're going to have acquisitions. You're going to have the desire to negotiate and have a negotiating position with your vendors. You're going to want to use functionality that's maybe only in one of the clouds. And so we're really seeing this multi-cloud become more of a norm. And that's why we think it's critical to have a DevOps platform that's independent from that, so that you can deploy everywhere. >> So what's the lock-in spec? I mean, basically the thesis is that if you want to negotiating leverage, you want to have multi-cloud. I get the whole, "there's multiple clouds," because, upgrade to Office 365, you got Azure, basically. So, multi-vendor, multi-cloud, totally buy it. But what's the lock-in spec that's getting people agitated, or thinking about multi-cloud? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting, because there's both, of course, the technical side. Like I said, you might have functionality that you want to run that's only available on one cloud. But, the finance folks, and everyone else gets concerned about, "Hey, are we going to get locked into some vendor, "where we don't have any ability to negotiate?" And so I think that is part of it, and I read, as part of prepping for my talk here, a 2019 state-of-cloud report that said 84% of enterprises, today, are using more than one cloud. So I think that's indicative of that desire to not-- You may have a primary cloud where you deploy things, but you're going to use more than one. >> I think that's a fair reality. I mean, probably more, I mean, if you count all these, how they're bundling apps in there. What's your talk going to be about? Is it today or tomorrow? >> So, I'm talking tomorrow, and I'm talking about a framework for making decisions about multi-cloud. 'Cause again, I think that a lot of the times we get bogged down in the technology, and picking features over what we're really looking for, which is the business value of being able to have a single view, a single application, a single platform for your developers to be able to deploy, kind of no matter where it's going to end up, in the end, right? We don't want the developer having to think about that, necessarily, when they're building the application. We want to deliver value to our customers, right? And so we want them to be doing that differentiated work. >> Me and Armon were talking earlier, HashiCorp, CTO of HashiCorp, and he was talking about workflows, and I was talking about, okay, workloads. So, if you just take those two concepts, workflows and workloads, and just strip out any other technical conversation, what's the framework? Because, these are real issues. Those are the--that's the continuity issue for the business, not the tech. So, fill in the blanks around that. How does that--how do I get multi-cloud out of making sure my workflows aren't disrupted, and my workloads are kicking ass and doing their job? >> Yeah, I would say that that's a great question, and we love HashiCorp and what they've done for our space, and for multi-cloud, in general. They're a great partner for us. But I think the key is, the workflow you generally want to be the same, no matter where you're deploying, right? You want to have confidence that the code your building is secure, it's going to work, it's been tested, and, no matter where it deploys in the end, you want to have that same kind of workflow for your developers. But you also want to have workload portability, right? So, when you're talking about the ability to have a negotiating position, or the ability to run in multiple clouds, the same application, you know, have disaster recovery, have not just this monolith--mono-cloud environment, you have to have workload portability, as well. >> Well, Brendan, I'm not sure if they're taping your interview. Hope they are. If they are, then we'll get those copies in our video on cloud. But, you've got a framework for multi-cloud, and with the reality that everyone wants, or has either inherited, or has, or will want a multi-vendor environment, what is that framework for negotiating, or setting up the foundation? Because the theme here, my interviews here, and the hallway conversations, two things: One is foundational discussions around multi-cloud, I mean, early, thought leaders laying out, here's some lines to think about. And then, two, data. So, two, interesting, common threads, here: foundational thinking and data. >> I think that foundational thinking's important, because I think that's really what my framework gets to is, hey, we want to look at not just the technology, and not those answers. We want to look at, what are the business metrics that we're driving towards, right? 'Cause, in the end, again, that's what we want to be driving in software is our businesses. And, so, what are the business metrics that we're going to use, and how can we make it efficient? How can we make it governed? And how can we make it visible across those clouds? I think those are the three things to be focused on. >> And is there a certain way? So is it more, situational, based upon the environment, because maybe there's weights of certain variables over others? >> I think so. I think, depending on your environment, right? You maybe in a more highly regulated environment where governance is the number one, it's the king. But I think everyone has those governance concerns, right? None of us want to wake up to a security call that we should have known about, right? >> How's things going on in your world? GitLab, you guys are doing great. Good to see you guys got a big round of funding, recently. >> Going great. >> GitHub just sold for billions of dollars. That's a nice comp. >> Yeah, no, I say it's nice when someone sells a house in your neighborhood for a lot of money, right? But, yeah, no, what we see from that is the industry moving toward this single tool for your DevOps lifecycle, for your DevOps tool chain, and your DevOps lifecycle. We want to be able to have one way that developers deploy code, and we're seeing that kind of consolidation in the market. And we've had great success with that, so far. Our stated pubic desire is to go public next year. And we're on track for that, right now. So, we're looking forward to it. >> You know what's interesting and I love is the subtext to all this plot, which is, there's a human equation in all this, right? The human capital, human resource, the people-side of the equation, the cultural shifts in these companies, your customers, now. Any observational commentary that you can share around how DevOps has kind of gone mainstream? Any cultural shifts around people and their behaviors and their affinity towards certain things? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I saw an article yesterday about a CIO who was being promoted to CEO, as the current CEO stepped down, and how that was kind of a novel thing. But the article was actually talking about how we're going to see more of that, right? Businesses, eight years ago, Marc Andreesen said that software is eating the world. Well, I think software has eaten the world, and we're seeing that in our businesses, as every company becomes a software company. >> And open source, JJ would argue at OSS Capital, that there's new business models emerging, as well. And new opportunities, as well, for everyone involved. Open source software, cloud computing, multi-cloud, it's a great wave. >> It is a big wave, and, you know, GitLab's based on an open-source project, right? And so, just, we were founded only back in 2014, as a company, but we've come to find a business model that works, open-core, and we think there's a lot of opportunity in the market for folks to follow, and open source to have an even bigger impact than it's already had on the market. >> Final question for you, Brendan. What do you think about this conference, some of the hallway conversations, what's the vibe? For the folks that aren't here, what's it like? >> Oh, I mean, I think it's great. I think there's been a lot of great discussions, again, about very foundational things, about, hey, how do we look at this as a business leaders? But, then, I've also had great discussions about the technology and about Kubernetes, about those kinds of things that really enable us to have those kinds of conversations. >> Some good relationships being developed here. People know each other, too. >> Exactly, yeah, people I haven't seen in a long time, or people that I work with that I haven't seen 'cause we're all remote. >> It's great to see it in New York, too. >> Yeah, I love it in New York. So, I'm from DC, so it's a quick train ride up, but I love coming up, though. >> Not like us in California, big plane ride. Brendan, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, great, thank you very much for having me. >> I'm John Furrier, here at the first, inaugural conference, Escape/19, back with more of that after this short break. (techno music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest, Dr. Nic Williams, CEO of Stark and Wayne. Dr. Nic, thanks for joining me >> Thank you very much. I think you must've come to the conference from a different direction than I came. >> I'm a local, and I'm trying to get more people to come to the Boston area. We've been doing theCUBE now for, coming up on our ninth year of doing it, and it's only the third time I've done something in this convention center, so please, more tech shows to this area, Boston, the Hynes Convention Center, and things like that. >> There's plenty of tech people. I was at the Nero Cafe, everyone seemed like they were a tech person. >> Oh no, the Seaport region here is exploding. I've done two interviews today with companies here in Boston or Cambridge. There's a great tech scene. For some reason, you and I were joking, it's like, do we really need another conference in Vegas? I mean really. >> Dr. Nic: Right, no, I like the regional. >> But yeah, the weather here is unseasonably cold. It was snowing and sleeting this morning, which is not the Spring weather. >> It is April, it is mid-April, and it's almost snowing outside. >> Alright, so Dr. Nic, first of all, you get props for the T-shirt. You've got Iron Man and Doctor Doom, and we're saying that there is a connection between the superheroes and Stark and Wayne. >> Right, so Stark and Wayne is founded by two fictional superheroes. The best founders are the fictional ones, they don't go to meetings, they're too busy making, you know, films. >> Yes, but everybody knows that Tony Stark is Iron Man, but nobody's supposed to know that Bruce Wayne was Batman. >> Nic: Right, right. >> But I've heard Stark and Wayne mentioned a number of times by customers here at the conference. So, for our audience that doesn't know, what does Stark and Wayne do, and how are you involved in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem? >> So Stark and Wayne, I first found Bosh, I founded Stark and Wayne. Earlier than that I discovered Bosh, six years ago, when it was first released, became like, I claimed to be the world's first evangelist for Bosh, and still probably the number one evangelist. And so Stark and Wayne came out of that. I was VMWare Pivotal's go-to person for standing things up and then customers grew, and you know. Yeah, people want to know who to go to, and when it comes to running Cloud Foundry, that's us. >> Yeah well, there's always that discussion, right? We've got all these wonderful platforms and these things that go together, but a lot of times there's services and people that help to get those up. Pivotal, just had a great discussion with a Pivotal person, talking about the reason they bought Pivotal Labs originally was like, wow, when people got stuck, that's what Pivotal Labs helps with that whole application development, so you're doing similar things with Bosh? >> Correct. No it's, we have our mental model around what it is to run operations of a platform, where you're running complex software, but you have an end user who expects everything just to work. And they never want to talk to you, and you don't want to talk to them. So it's this new world of IT where they get what they want instantly, that's the platform and it has to keep working. >> Dr Nic, is it an unreasonable thing for people to say that, yeah I want the things to work, and it shouldn't go down, and you know-- >> What is shadow IT? Shadow IT is the rebellion against corporate IT, so we want to bring back, well, we want to bring the wonders of public services to corporate environments. >> Okay, so-- >> That's the Cloud Foundry's story. >> Yeah, so talk to me a little bit about your users. We've watched this ecosystem mature since the early days, you know, things are more mature, but what's working well? What are the challenges? What are some of the prime things that have people calling up your team? >> So our scope, our users, or our customers, are people, they're the GEs and the Fords of the world running either as a service or internally large Cloud Foundry installations. And whilst Cloud Foundry is getting better and better, the security model is better, the upgrades seem to be flawless, it does keep getting more complex. You know, you can't just add container to container networking and it not get more complicated, right? So, yeah, trying to keep up-to-date with not just the core, but even the community of projects going on is part of the novelty, but also it's trying to bring it to customers and be successful. >> Yeah, I go to a number of these shows that are open source and every time you come there, it's like, "Well, here's the main things we're talking about "but here's six other projects that come up." How's that impact some of what you were just talking about? But, maybe elaborate as to how you deal with the pace of change, and those big companies, how are they help integrate those into what they're doing, or do they, you know-- >> So my Twitter is different from your Twitter. So my Twitter is 10 years worth of collecting of people who talk about interesting things, putting in a URL, just referencing an idea they're having, so they tend to be the thought leaders. They might be wrong, or like, let's put Docker into production, like, it doesn't make it wrong, but you've got to be wary of people who are too early. And you just start to peace a picture of what's being built, and you start to know which groups and which individuals are machines, and make great stuff, and you sort of track their work. Like HashiCorp, Mitchell Hashimoto, I knew him before HashiCorp, and he is a monster, and so you tend to track their work. >> So your Twitter and my Twitter might be more alike than you think. >> Nic: No maybe, right. >> I interviewed Armon at the Cube-Con show last year. My Twitter blowing up the show was a bunch of people arguing about whether Serverless was going to eradicate this whole ecosystem. >> Well, we can argue about that if you like, I guess. >> But love, one of the things coming into this show, was, you know, how does the whole Kubernetes discussion fit into Cloud Foundry? We've heard at this show, Microsoft, Google, many others, talking about, look, open source communities, they're going to work together. >> Well Windows is going to track things 'cause they think they need to sell them, right? But then Microsoft has Service Fabric, which they've owned and operated internally for 10 years, and so, I think some really interesting products may be built on top of Service Fabric, because of what it is. Whereas, you know, Kubernetes will run things, Service Fabric may build net new projects. And then Cloud Foundry's a different experience altogether, so some people, it's what problems they experienced, comes to the solution they find, and unless you've tried to run a platform for people, you might not think the solution's a platform. You might think it's Kubernetes, but-- >> Yeah, so one of the things we always look at when we talk about platforms, is what do they get stood up for? How many applications do you get to stand up there? What don't they work for? Maybe you could help give us a little bit of color as to what you see? >> I'm pretty good at jamming anything into Cloud Foundry, so I have a pretty small scope of what doesn't fit, but typically the idea of Cloud Foundry is the assumption the user is a developer who has 10 iterations a day. Alright, so they want to deploy, test, deploy, test, and then layer pipelines on top of that. You also get, you're going to get the backend of long, stable apps, but the value is, for many people, is that the deploy experience. And then, you know, but whilst, you're going to get those apps that live forever, we still get to replace the underlying core of it. So you still maintain a security model even for the things that are relatively unloved. Andthis is really valuable, like the nice, clean separation of the security, the package, CVEs, and the base OS, then the apps is part of the-- >> Yeah, absolutely, there's been an interesting kind of push and pull lately. We need to take some of those old applications, and we may need to lift and shift them. It doesn't mean that I can necessarily take advantage of all the cool stuff, and there are some things that I can't do with them when I get them on to that new platform. But absolutely, you need to worry about security, you know, data's like the center of everything. >> If you're lifting and shifting, there probably is no developer looking after it, so it's more of an operator function, and they can put it anywhere they like. They're looking after it now, whereas the Cloud Foundry experience is that developer-led experience that has an operations backend. If you're lifting and shifting, if it fits in Cloud Foundry, great, if it fits in Kubernetes, great. It's your responsibility. >> Yeah, what interaction do you have with your clients, with some of the kind of cultural and operational changes that they need to go through? So thinking specifically, you've go the developers doing things, you know, the operators, whether they're involved, whether that be devops or not, but I'm curious-- >> So the biggest change when it comes to helping people who are running platforms. And I know many people want to talk about the cloud transformation, but let's talk about the operations transformation, is to become a service-orientated group who are there to provide a service. Yes you're internal, yes they all have the same email address that you do, but you're a service-orientated organization, and that is not technology, that is a mental mode. And if you're not service-orientated, shadow IT occurs, because they can go to Amazon and get a support organization that will respond to them, and so you're competing with Amazon, and Google, and you need to be pretty good. >> Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, your typical client is kind of a large, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, the Fortune 1000 type companies, does this sort of-- >> We haven't got Berkshire. We haven't got Berkshire, and so if we're going to go Fortune 5, you know, we'd like, I've read my Warren Buffett biography, I reckon the FA are here to meet him I reckon. >> Right, so one of the questions, is this only for the enterprise? Can it be used for smaller businesses, for newer businesses? >> What's interesting is people think about Cloud Foundry as like, "Oh you run it on your infrastructure." Like, I did a talk in 2014, 15, when Docker was starting to be frothy, was, before you think you want to build your own pass, ring me on the hotline. Like, argue with me about why you wouldn't just use Heroku, or Pivotal Web Services, or IBM Cloud, like a public pass. Please, I beg of you, before you go down any path of running on-prem anything, answer solidly the question of why you just wouldn't use a public service. And yeah, so it really starts at that point. It's like, use someone else's, and then if you have to run your own. So, who's really going to have all these rules? It's large organization that have these, "Oh, no, no, we have to run our own." >> Well doctor, one of the things we've said for a while, is there's lots of things that enterprise suck at, that they need to realize that they shouldn't be doing. So start at the most basic level, there's like five companies in the world that are good at building data centers, nobody else should build data centers, if you're using somebody else that can do that. So as you go up and up the stack, you want to get rid of the undifferentiated lifting, things like that, so-- >> I like to joke that every CIO, the moment they get that job, like that's their ticket to get to build their own data center. It's like, what else was the point of becoming a CIO? I want to build my own data center. >> No, not anymore, please-- >> Not anymore, but you know, plus they've been around a little longer than-- >> So, what is that line? What should companies be able to consume a platform, versus where do they add the value, and do you help customers kind of understand that that-- >> By the time they're talking to us, they're pretty far along having convinced themselves about what they're doing. And they have their rules. They have their isolation rules, their data-ownership rules, and they'll have their level of comfort. So they might be comfortable on Amazon, Google, Azure, or they might still not be comfortable with public cloud, and they want the vSphere, but they still have that notion of we're going to run this ourselves. And most of them it's not running one, because that idea of we need our own, propagates throughout the entire organization, and they'll start wanting their own Cloud Foundry-- >> Look, I find that when I talk to users, we, the vendors, and those that watch the industry, always try to come up with these multi-cloud hybrid cloud-type discussion. Users, have a cloud strategy, and it's usually often siloed just like everything else, and right, they're using-- >> Developers-- >> I have some data service, and it's running on Google-- >> Developers just want to have a nice life. >> Microsoft apps. >> They just want to get their work done. They want to feel like, "Alright this is a great job, "like, I'm respected, I get interesting work, "we get to ship it, it actually goes into production." I think if you haven't ever had a project you've worked on that didn't go into production, you haven't worked long enough. Many of us work on something for it not to be shipped. Get it into production as quick as possible and-- >> So, do you have your, you know, utopian ideal world though as to, this is the step-- >> Oh, absolutely-- >> And this is how it'll be simple. >> Tell developers what the business problems are. Get them as close to the business problems, and give them responsibility to solve them. Don't put them behind layers of product managers, and IT support-- >> But Dr. Nic, the developers, they don't have the budget-- >> Speak for utopian-- >> How do we sort through that, because, right, the developer says they want to do this, but they're not tied to the person that has the budget, or they're not working with the operators, I mean, how do we sort through that? >> How do we get to utopia? >> Stu: Yeah. Well, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they all solved utopia, right? So, this is, think more like them, and perhaps the CEO of the company shouldn't come from sales, perhaps it should be an IT person. >> Well, yeah, what's the T-shirt for the show? It was like running at scale, when you reach a certain point of scale, you either need to solve some of these things, or you will break? >> Right, alright look, hire great sales organizations, but if you don't have empathy for what your company needs to look like in five years time, you're probably not going to allow your organization to become that. The power games, alright? If everyone assumes that the marketing department becomes the top of the organization, or the, you know, then the good people are going to leave to go to organizations where they might be become CEO one day. >> Alright, Dr. Nic, want to give you the final word. For the people that haven't been able to come to the sessions, check out the environment, what are they missing at this show? What is exciting you the most in this ecosystem? >> Like any conference you go to, you come, the learning is all put online. Your show is put online, or every session is put online. You don't come just to learn. You get the energy. I live in Australia, I work from a coffee shop, my staff are all in America, and so to come and just to get the energy that you're doing the right thing, that you get surrounded by a group of people, and certainly no one walks away from a CF Summit feeling like they're in the wrong career. >> Excellent. Well, Dr. Nic, appreciate you helping us understand the infinity wars of cloud environments here. Stark and Wayne, thanks so much for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE. >> Dr. Nic: Thanks Stu. (electronic music)