(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the a AWS startup showcase, data as code is the theme. This is season two episode two of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem and we talk about data analytics. I'm your old John Furrier with the cube, and we have Javier De La Torre. who's the founder and chief strategy officer of Carto, which is doing some amazing innovation around geographic information systems or GIS. Javier welcome to the cube for this showcase. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> So, you know, one of the things that you guys are bringing to the table is spatial analytic data that now moves into spatial relations, which is, you know, we know about geofencing. You're seeing more data coming from satellites, ground stations, you name it. Things are coming into the market from a data perspective, that's across the board and geo's one of them GIS systems. This is what you guys are doing in the rise of SQL in particular with spatial. This is a huge new benefit to the world. Can you take a minute to explain what Carto's doing and what spatial SQL is? >> Sure. Yeah. So like you said, like data, obviously we know is growing very fast and as you know now, being leveraged by many organizations in many different ways. There's one part of data, one dimension that is location. We like to say that everything happens somewhere. So therefore everything can be analyzed and understood based on the location. So we like to put an example, if all your neighbors get an alarm in their homes, the likelihood that you will get an alarm increases, right? So that's obvious we are all affected by our surroundings. What is spatial analytics, this type of analytics does is try to uncover those spacial relations so that you can model, you can predict where something is going to happen, or, you know, like, or optimize it, you know, like where else you want it to happen, right? So that's at the core of it. Now, this is something that as an industry has been done for many years, like the GIS or geographic information systems have existed for a long time. But now, and this is what Carto really brings to the table. We're looking at really the marketizing it, so that it's in the hands of any analyst, our vision is that you need to go five years, to a geography school to be able to do this type of spatial analysis. And the way that we want to make that happen is what we call with the rise of a spatial SQL. We add these capabilities around spatial analytics based on the language that is very, very popular for a analysts, which is SQL. So what we do is enables you to do this spatial analysis on top of the well known and well used SQL methods. >> It's interesting the cloud native and the cloud scale wave and now data as code has shown that the old school, the old guard, the old way of doing things, you mentioned data warehousing, okay, as one. BI tools in particular have always been limited. And the scope of the limitation was the environment was different. You have to have domain expertise, rich knowledge of the syntax. Usually it's for an application developer, not for like real time and building it into the CICD pipeline, or just from a workflow standpoint, making it available. The so-called democratization, this is where this connects. And so I got to ask you, what are you most excited about in the innovations at Carto? Can you share some of the things that people might know about or might not know about that's happening at Carto, that takes advantage of this cloud native wave because companies are now on this bandwagon. >> Yeah, no, it is. And cloud native analytics is probably the most disruptive kind of like trend that we've seen over the few years, in our particular space on the spatial it has tremendous effects on the way that we provide our service. So I'd like to kind of highlight four main reasons why cloud analytics, cloud native is super important to us. So the first one is obviously is a scalability, the working with the sizes of data that we work now in terms of location was just not possible or before. So for someone that is performing now analysis on autonomous car, or you're like that has any sensorized GPS on a device and is collecting hundreds of billions of points. If you want to do analysis on that type of data, cloud native allows you to do that in a scalable way, but it also is very cost effective. That is something that you'll see very quickly when your data grows a lot, which is that this computing storage separation, the idea that is store your data at cloud prices, but then use them with these data warehouses that we work in this private, makes for a very, very cost effective solution. But then, you know, there is other two, obviously one of them being SQL and spatial SQL that like means we like to say that SQL is becoming the lingua franca for analytics. So it's used by many products that you can connect through the usage of SQL, but I think like you coming towards why I think it's even more interesting it's like, in the cloud the concept like we all are serving, we are all living in the same infrastructure enables us that we can distribute a spatial data sets to a customer that they can join it on their database on SQL without having to move the data from one another, like in the case of Redshift or Amazon Redshift car connects and you using something called a spectrum, we can connect live to data that is stored on S3. And I think that is going to disrupt a lot the way that we think about data distributions and how cost effective it is. I think, it has a lot of your like potential on it. And in that sense what Carto is providing on top of it in the format of formats like parquet, which is a very popular with big data format. We adding geo parquet, we are specializing this big data technology for doing the spatial analysis. And that to me it is very exciting because it's putting some of the best tools at the hands of doing the space analytics for something that we're not able to do before. So to me, this is one area that I'm very, very excited. >> Well, I want to back up for a second. So you mentioned parquet and the standards around that format. And also you mentioned Redshift, so let me get this right. So you just saying that you can connect into Redshift. So I'm a customer and I have Redshift I'm using, I got my S3, I'm using Redshift for analysis. You're saying you can plug right into Redshift. >> Yes. And this is a very, very, very important part because what Carto does is leverage Redshift computing infrastructure to essentially kind of like do all the analysis. So what we do is we bring a spatial analysis where the data is, where Redshift is versus in the past, what we will do is take the data where the analysis was and that sense, it's at the core of cloud native. >> Okay. This is really where I see the exciting shift where data as code now becomes a reality is that you bring the... It redefines architecture, the script is flipped. The architecture has been redefined. You're making the data move to the environments that needs to move when it has to, if it doesn't have to move you bring compute to it. So you're seeing new kinds of use cases. So I have to ask you on the use cases and examples for Carto AWS customers with spatial analytics, what are some of the examples on how your clients are using cloud native spatial analytics or Carto? >> Yeah. So one, for example, that we've seen a lot, on the AWS ecosystem, obviously because of its suites and its position. We work together with another service in the AWS ecosystem called Amazon Location. So that actually provides you access to maps and SDKs for navigation. So it means that you are like a company that is delivering food or any other goods in the city. We have like hundreds or thousands of drivers around the city moving, doing all these deliveries. And each of these drivers they have an app and they're collecting actively their location, their position, right? So you get all the data and then it gets stored on something like a Redshift data cluster on S3 as well. There's different architectures in there, but now you essentially have like a full log of the activity that is happening on the ground from your business. So what Carto does on top of that data is you connect your data into Carto. And now you can do analysis, for example, for finding out where you user may be placed, another distribution center, you know, for optimizing your delivering routes, or like if you're in the restaurant business where you might want to have a new dark kitchen, right? So all this type of analysis based on, since I know where you're doing your operations, I can post analyze the data and then provide you a different way that you can think about solving your operation. So that's an example of a great use case that we're seeing right now. >> Talk to me about about the traditional BI tools out there, because you mentioned earlier, they lack the specific capabilities. You guys bring that to the table. What about the scalability limitations? Can you talk about where that is? Is there limitations there, obviously, if they don't have the capabilities, you can't scale that's one, but you know, as you start plugging into Redshift, scale and performance matters, what's the issue there? Can you unpack that a little bit real quick? >> Yeah. It goes back to the particulars of the spacial data, location data, like in the use case, like I was describing you very quickly are going to end up with really a lot of your like terabytes, if not petabytes of data very quickly, if you're start aggregating all this data, because it gets created by sensors. So volumes in our world kind of tends to grow a lot now. So when you work with BI tools, there's two things that you have to take in consideration. BI tools are great for seeing things like for example, if all you want to see is where your customers are, a BI tool is great. Seeing, creating a map and seeing your customers. That's totally in the world of BI. But if you want to understand why your customers are there, or where else could they be, you're going to need to perform what we call a spatial analysis. You're going to have to create a spatial model. You're going to have to, and for that BI tools will not give you that that's one side, the other it talks about the volumes that I was describing. Most of these BI tools can handle certain aggregations. Like, for example, if you are reading, if you're connecting your, let's say 10 billion data set to a BI tool, the BI tool will do some aggregations because you cannot display 10,000 rows on a BI tool and that's okay, you get aggregations and that works. But when it comes to a map, you cannot aggregate the data on the map. You actually want to see all the data on the map, and that's what Carto provides you. It allows you to make maps that sees all the data, not just aggregated by county or aggregated by other kind of like area, you see all your data on the map. >> You know, what's interesting is that location based service has been around for a long time. You know, when mobile started even hitting the scene, you saw it get better mashups, Google Maps, all this Google API mashups, things like that. You know, developers are used to it, but they could never get to the promised land on the big data side, because they just didn't have the compute. But now you add in geofencing, geo information, you now have access to this new edge like data, right? So I have to ask you on the mobile side, are you guys working with any 5G or edge providers? Because I can almost imagine that the spatial equation gets more complicated and more data full when you start blowing out edge data, like with 5G, you got more, more things happening at the edge. It's only going to fill in more data points. Can you share that's how that use case is going with mobile, mobile carriers or 5G? >> Yeah, that's totally, yeah. It's totally the case. Well, first, even before, you know, like we are there, we actually helping a lot of telcos on actually planning the 5G deployment. Where do you place your antennas is a very, very important topic when you're like talking about 5G. Because you know, like 5G networks require a lot of density. So it's a lot about like, okay, where do I start deploying my infrastructure to ensure the customers like meet, like have the best service and the places where I want to kind of like go first So like... >> You mean like the RF maps, like understanding how RF propagates. >> Well, that's one signal, but the other is like, imagine that your telco is more interested on, you know, let's say on a certain kind of like consumer profile, like young people that are using the one type of service. Well, we know where these demographics kind of lives. So you might want to start kind of like deploying your 5G in those areas, right. Versus if you go to more commercial and more kind of like residential areas, there might be other demographics. So that's one part around market analysis. Then the second part is once these 5G networks are in place, you're right. I mean, one of the premises that kind of like these news technologies give us is because the network is much smarter. You can have all these edge cases, there's much more location data that can be collected. So what we see now is a rise on the amount of what we call telemetry. That for example, the IOT space can make around location. And that's now enabled because of 5G. So I think 5G is going to be one of those trends that are going to make like more and more data coming into, I mean, more location, data available for analysis. >> So how does that, I mean, this is a great conversation because everyone can realize they're at a stadium and they see multiple bars but they can't get bandwidth. So they got a back haul problem or not enough signal. Everyone knows when they're driving their car, they know they can relate to the consumer side of it. So I get how the spatial data grows. What's the impact to Carto and specifically the cloud, because if you have more data coming in, you need the actionable insight. So I can see the use case, oh, put the antenna here. That's an actionable business decision, more content, more revenue, more happy customers, but where else is the impact to you guys and the spatial piece of it? >> Yeah. Well, I mean like there's many, many factors, right? So one of them, for example, on the telco, one of the things where we realize impact is that it gives the visibility to the operator, for example, around the quality of service. Like, okay, are my customers getting the quality of services where I want? Or like you said, like if there sitting outside a concert the quality of service in one particular area is dropping very fast. So the idea of like being able to now in real time, kind of like detect location issues, like I'm having an issue in this place. That means that then now I can act, I can drive up bandwidth, put more capacity et cetera right. So I think the biggest impact that we are seeing we are going to see on the upcoming years is that like more and more use cases going towards real time. So where, like before it was like, well, now that it has happened, I'm going to analyze it. I'm going to look at, you know, like how I could do better next time towards a more of like an industry where Carto ourselves, we are embedded in more real time type of, you know, like analytics where it's okay, if this happens, then do that, right. So it's going to be more personalized at the level that like in the code environment, it has to be art of a full kind of like pipeline kind of like type of analysis. That's already programmatically prepared to act on real time. >> That's great and it's a good segue. My next question, as more and more companies adopt cloud native analytics, what trends are you seeing out of the key to watch? Obviously you're seeing more developers coming on site, on the scene, open sources growing, what's the big cloud native analytics trends for Carto and geographic information. >> Yeah. So I think you know like the, we were talking before the cloud native now is unstoppable, but one of the things that we are seeing that is still needs to be developed and we are seeing progress is around a standardization, for example, around like data sets that are provided by different providers. What I mean with that is like, you as an organization, you're going to be responsible for your data like that you create on your cloud, right. On S3, or, you know and then you going to have a competing engine, like Redshift and you're going to have all that set up, but then you also going to have to think about like, okay, how do I ingest data from third party providers that are important for my analysis? So for example, Carto provides a lot of demographics, human mobility. we aggregate and clean up and prepare lot of spacial data so that we can then enrich your business. So for us, how we deliver that into your cloud native solution is a very important factor. And we haven't seen yet enough standardization around that. And that's one of the things, what we are pushing, you know, with the concept of geo Parquet of standardizing that body. That's one, then there is another, this is more what I like to say that you know, we are helping companies figure out their own geographies. What we mean by that is like most companies, when they start thinking about like how they interact, on the space, on the location, some of them will work like by zip codes and other by cities, they organize their operations based on a geography in a way, or technically what we call a geographic support system. Well, nowadays, like the most advance companies are defining their geographies in a continuous spectrum in what we call global grid system or spatial indexes that allows them to understand the business, not just as a set of regions, but as a continuous space. And that is now possible because of the technologies that we are introducing around spatial indexes at the cloud native infrastructure. And it provides a great a way to match data with resources and operate at scale. To me those two trends are going to be like very, very important because of the capabilities that cloud native brings to our spatial industry. >> So it changes the operation. So it's data as ops, data as code, is data ops, like infrastructures code means cloud DevOps. So I got to ask you because that's cool. Spatial index is a whole another way to think of it, rather than you go hyper local, super local, you get local zones for AWS and regions. Things are getting down to the granular levels I see that. So I have to ask you, what does data as code mean to you and what does it mean to Carto? Because you're kind of teasing at this new way because it's redefining the operation, the data operations, data engineering. So data as code is real. What does that mean to you? >> No, I think we already seeing it happening to me and to Carto what I will describe data as code is when an organization has moved from doing an analysis after the fact, like where they're like post kind of like analysis in a way to where they're actually kind of like putting analytics on their operational cycle. So then they need to really code it. They need to make these analysis, put them and insert them into the architecture bus, if you want to say of the organization. So if I get a customer, happens to be in this location, I'm going to trigger that and then this is going to do that. Or if this happens, I'm need to open up. And this is where if an organization is going to react in more real time, and we know that organizations need to drive in that direction, the only way that they can make that happen is if they operationalize analytics on their daily operations. And that can only happen with data as code. >> Yeah. And that's interesting. Look at ML ops, AI ops, people talk about that. This is data, so developers meets operations, that's the cloud, data meets code that's operations, that's data business. >> You got it. And add to that, the spacial with Carto and we go it. >> Yeah, because every piece of data now is important. And the spatial's key real quick before we close out, what is the index thing? Explain the benefit real quick of a spatial index. >> Yes. So the spatial index is well everybody can understand how we organize societies politically, right? Our countries, you have like states and then you have like counties and you have all these different kind, what we call administrative boundaries, right? That's a way that we organize information too, right? A spatial index is when you divide the world, not in administrative boundaries, but you actually make a grid. Imagine that you just essentially make a grid of the world. right? And you make that grid so that in every cell you can then split it into, let's say for example, four more cells. So you now have like an organization. You split the world in a grid that you can have multiple resolutions think like Google maps when you see the entire world, but you can zoom in and you end up seeing, you know, like one particular place, so that's one thing. So what a spatial indexes allows you is to technically put, you know like your location, not based coordinate, but actually on one grid place on an index. And we use that then later to correlate, let's say your data with someone else data, as we can use what we call this spatial indexes to do joints very, very fast and we can do a lot of operations with it. So it is a new way to do spatial computing based on this type of indexes, but for more than anything for an organization, what spatial index allows is that you don't need to work on zip codes or in boundaries on artificial boundaries. I mean, your customer doesn't change because he goes from this place to the road, to the other side of the road, this is the same place. It's an arbitrary in location. It's a spatial index break out all of that. You're like you break with your zip codes, you break. And you essentially have a continuous geography, that actually is a much closer look up to the reality. >> It's like the forest and the trees and the bark of the tree. (Javier laughing) You can see everything. >> That's it, you can get a look at everything. >> Javi, great to have you on. In real quick closing give a quick plug for the company, summarize what you do, what you're looking into, how many people you got, when you're hiring, what's the key goals for the company? >> Yeah, sure. So Carto is a company, now we are around 200 people. Our vision is that spatial analytics is something that every organization should do. So we really try to enable organizations with the best data and analysis around spatial. And we do all that cloud native on top of your data warehouse. So what we are really in enabling these organizations is to take that cloud native approach that they're already embracing it also to spatial analysis. >> Javi, founder, chief strategy officer for Carto. Great to have you on data as code, all data's real, all data has impact, operational impact with data is the new big trend. Thanks for coming on and sharing the company story and all your key innovations. Thank you. >> Thanks to you. >> Okay. This is the startup showcase. Data as code, season two episode two of the ongoing series. Every episode will explore new topics and new exciting companies pioneering this next cloud native wave of innovation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to this cube conversation featuring Carto I'm Lisa Martin. And today we're excited to be joined by Javier Delatorre, the founder and chief strategy officer at Carto. We're going to be talking about how Carto is bringing cloud native spatial analysis to the cloud with AWS. How do you are great to have you on the program? Talk to us about cartel. What do you guys do? >>Great. So, uh, part two is a location intelligence platform, but we really use some neighboring organizations to work with location data on the AWS cloud. So essentially enabling organizations to analyze what do they, what should they open new stores? Whereas today probably the new internet, in essence, understanding the locations. I mentioned just helping them to figure out where to do things >>From Carter's perspective. Talk to me about why spatial analysis, location data is important. What power does it give to businesses in any industry? >>Right. I mean, we like to say that everything happens somewhere, right? So we understand that, you know, like the physical world is a very important dimension. So understanding where things happens and the relation within space is a pretty fundamental dimension when it comes to another. I like to put examples of, um, before your neighbors, uh, install alarms in their phones, the likelihood that you will get an alarm is also versus quite a lot. So that's eight years old, says that we are influenced by things that happens around us. And if you can model and understand those spacial relations, you can then look to optimize or predict what is going to happen based on where things are happening. And this is something that we've seen a lot, for example, with the pandemic, but now we're seeing, you know, like many organizations utilizing it for yeah. For finding out where they can find new customers, stores, like say, where did they deploy the new infrastructure? Everything that the ANZ has a spatial component. And that's what is spatial analytics and location intelligence allows you to do? >>Give me some examples of spatial data. And the first thing that pops into my mind is GPS. But I know that there's a lot more than that. >>Uh, GPS has been one of the most important types of data for, so since you know, the inability of GPS and, and with mobile and different sensors are staring at it, we've seen an incredible amount of location data coming into place, but you're right. There's many other types of location data that people tend not to be so aware. I'd say any company that is handling customers, you know, they're likely going to have their addresses. So we have the address of the customer. You have a location already, we'll have, we'll call that the process of geocoding. We transform an address that coordinates, right? But you also have the same, you know, with bees, you have the same, uh, with many different sip codes, it's many different ways that you can represent location. And once you identify those, uh, location bits in your data, then you can start thinking about what type of analysis you can do with them. So it is, like I said, like in many, many places, but definitely the, the rise of, uh, GPS and sensors have been very dramatic. Now we see in also like acute stream of location data coming, for example, from satellites, you know, with all these constellations of satellites, capturing daily images on from earlier, that is also giving us a lot of contextual information. But so it is, you know, mobile phones, when you connect to cell towers, there's many different businesses that are now kind of giving us location data. >>So you alluded to that earlier, a lot more businesses are using location data in their strategies. Talk to me about the acceleration that you seen of that in the last couple of years alone. >>Yeah. So I think one thing that we see in, you know, like massively on the industry obviously is these companies are going through the digital transformation. They are applying analytics to bigger and bigger areas of their, of their, of their business, right. And in a way to showcase, to kind of came as while the last time I mentioned that a lot of organizations started to look at, and over the last few years, we've seen that change in a lot. We've seen it within the many more organized spaces. Now making the questions around where things happens, how does actually matter to my business. So this is celebration, you know, has the sensitive men that many more people are now starting to look at, not only seeing things on a map, like, you know, where my customers are, where my warehouses are, my logistics supply chain, where is it located? >>Now, we're starting to see many more organizations looking at questions about how can I predict where something is going to happen, or how can I optimize my business process so that, um, you know, I, I try to reduce the number of kilometers that I have to drive miles. So, um, I guess it's a mix of the need for sustainability optimizing the business process. And the fact that more and more organizations are starting to do much more deep transformation that now location data has become a much more interesting aspect for many more organizations. So I think all these things together has to make in a way that perfect storm. And now we've seen a lot of the men too, um, for companies that want to go will be John seeing things in a map to understanding why things happen in those spaces. And that's, I think that like, again, a multitude of drivers, you know, that is supposed to in this industry. >>Can you talk about some of the key use cases and maybe some of the vertical industries where you've really seen this takeoff in the last couple of years? >>Yes. And I think he's just in a way, one of the most interesting factors of our industry traditional industries have been on the area around security in the public sector was very much on the military and the, in the, in the, uh, intelligence ecosystem. But now we've seen tremendous adoption on industries like retail, right, where they are lying now consolidating what is their, what is their physical presence? Where do they open stores? You know, like, uh, food chains, what do they open restaurants? And it's a much more analytical process now towards making businesses because, and that involves the usage of location intelligence and space analytics. We do touch one, but we still also like tremendous increase in usage on things like telcos telecommunication. Now with all the deployment of 5g networks, fiber optics, most of those operators require a very good understanding of where you should apply your networks, which, which areas you want to go start first tablet, smart CapEx car, like a strategy. >>So that's telco, I would say it's also has been a tremendous increase. Um, the public secretary is obviously very important, you know, especially, you know, with a lot of the, in a way we all got to master or do you know why geography matters? You know, how to understand your location. Um, and the last one that I would say that it's also connected very much with climate change, transportation and logistics are very, very important factor now. So understanding what is the best strategies for last mile delivery, how to organize your warehouses to better meet your needs. Those are the places that now we're seeing really growing really fast. >>So tremendous amount of use cases, a lot of opportunity there for optimization. How have companies traditionally analyze spatial data and why does that need to change? >>Yeah, so, um, I mean, to a certain extent, I would like to say that there's not been, um, that much use of location data. And that I think is one of the most exciting parts that for many organizations, this is the first time that they're looking at location as a, as a need. I mentioned that they need to understand. So there were, there were several organizations doing already a spatial analytics, but right now it's really, we really see in the expansion of our industry and you're not catching up in, in major, uh, major companies. So those are not like more advanced, you know, we'll have used so-called the traditional GIS systems. GIS is a, is a type of software. That's been existing for many years, but it's only the second used by a very small needs of analysts. You have to go almost four years to school, you know, to become a GIS expert and then do GIS analyst. >>This is right now trending dramatically. And I think, you know, Carter's part of that, uh, transition to necessity, making best patient analysis and GIS part of just the generic general analytics. And I think this is one of the most exciting times that we have, because we've seen the demo by station of his face. And it takes now to imagine why there are, so now we've seen, you know, like analysts that, you know, used to be just to know how to make a map. So things are not with a map, you know, where, where something was happening. Now we starting to see them making much more interesting plastics. So I'm like, okay, if it happens here, where else could they be happened? Right. So that's what I, right now, they, the, the, the huge statements, I'd say, I'd say like many organizations is the first time they go into jail. People like me for being very passionate about the possibilities of really improving processes. I mean, this is super, super exciting time. >>I can definitely feel your passion here through zoom, or talk to me a little bit about how cartel and AWS are helping organizations to embrace the democratization of spatial data and really unlock its super powers. >>Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, that AWS as the leader on the cloud, in a way that has fundamentally changed the way that we think about like analytics, right? So, um, not only the clouds provide us with the scalability, scalability, affordable the scale of anything. So that's one of the things that, you know, has been incredibly, um, transformative in our industry, uh, with AWS. Now we can do analysis at the scale that wasn't possible before. So that's, that's, that's one thing. So for us, you know, what we've embarked with AWS is rethinking how we can do a spatial analytics in the cloud. We're calling it car to cloud native is providing a full cloud native approach towards performing the spatial analytics, traditional GIS. And for us to utilize this game, even as huge amount of scalability, we use services like Retsef the now with their server last capabilities, we like a, an organization have their data already on that data warehouse on breaths test and using Kartra space. >>now they can do a special ethics directly on the warehouse. This is one of the biggest characteristics of cartel made by being the first cloud data platform. Every computing that we do actually gets pushed down to the warehouse. So the customer is already using the computing engine that they're already, they've been using it for many other things they're paying for already. And they give us scalability. Uh, also very cost-effectiveness this storage competed in separation that the rest of service provides. It makes it very competitive from a call like a cost perspective, and then also is very convenient. So it means that you can use just traditional sequel that are many analysts, know how to use it within the tools that they've been using for many. So I think the participation is essential to read safe, and then also with incorporating the Amazon location services. So we can talk to, and it certainly provides a cloud native it's scalable, affordable, efficient, and much more easy to use solution to performance, space analytics that anything that has been done before. >>It's a tremendous amount of opportunity. It sounds like we're just scratching the surface, but really interesting things that cartoon was doing and how you're enabling organizations in every industry to accelerate the use of spatial data. Javier, thank you so much for joining me on the program today. Fascinating information and best of luck to you. >>Thank you very much >>For Javier Delatorre I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes stay right here for more coverage of the hybrid tech event world.

>>Yeah, >>from The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston. It's the Cube covering IBM. Think brought to you by IBM. >>Hi, everybody. We're back. And you're watching the Cube's coverage of the IBM think digital event for 2020. This is that he's socially distant and socially responsible. You? My name is Dave a lot. David Larose. Who's the general manager of the IBM partner ecosystem? David, Good to see you. >>Likewise. Great to be here. >>Yes, it is. Your first year in running the the ecosystem. You probably don't expect to be managing through the this world crisis this novel Corona virus. But what was your first move? Your outreach to partners? How are you communicating to them? Maybe you could share with us how that's all going. >>It certainly wasn't in the break. So when I took this job, you're right. But, you know, we have a very strong relationship with with our partners, and what we have is we have a global advisory board. So about 25 or 30 of our largest customers across the world, we engaged with them very, very quickly. That's all of the CIOs presidents, vice presidents of styles, um, and we engage with them on a survey and said, How are you thinking about it's what are the what are your big concerns and, you know, not unusually. They came back with a couple of key things. Number one was, and their primary concern is how do they support their clients? That was probably number one on their list of things followed very closely. By enabling their firms that have a financial stability that was number two and then probably number three. I would say it was, you know, managing their work. But they're moving to a digital only type of environment, similar to what IBM has done ever kind of the three, the three big concerns. And then we spent some time talking to them about how we could help, then really deal with that and address some of those problems. And earlier this week, we we announced so therefore very key things around. How do we help them? One. How do we adapt our programs and our incentives and, uh, really looking at providing them with, you know, extension of things like loyalty program. So don't worry about you know, your ability to re validate and recertify. We gotta protect your loyalty for 2020. We added a lot of incentives in the hardware systems program in the second quarter, so we've increased by half a percent off their based incentive from the first dollar that a lot of areas around programs in terms. Then we sort of really tried to address that point of view around digital. Um, some companies were digitally ready, but there are many companies that weren't actually know a digital platform, but also we very quickly rolled out what we call it my digital marketing platform, where partners can come in and download content and curate content from IBM and then wrap their own campaigns around that and get that out and continue to engage with their clients and their partners. Um, and we funding all of that 100% from an IBM perspective on using our car marketing goals. We used to have a 50 50 funding model without with their partners. But in this particular scenario, that's a digital program that they're running with funding at 100%. And then we're also opening up to provide consultancy on how to optimize digital. So I think you know the thing that we've done here is just their programs in terms quickly, um, or money back into the into the program during the second quarter and protect the ability for our partners and then really trying to help them and enable them to get Teoh Digital our workforce and the digital program. >>Yeah, a couple things there. I mean, we were talking earlier to the the folks from IBM Global Finance, and that's a key part that you mentioned liquidity. You know, certainly these partners air obviously very much concerned about the uncertainty ahead. So having a partner like IBM that can, whether it's, you know, pass on, you know, lease terms, etcetera and provide that sort of blacking is this key? I think the other thing, too we've heard from a lot of executives, is you've got to stay close to your clients during we always do, but especially during times like this, And that's where partners are so crucial in IBM huge company, you know, massive direct sales force, but you can't cover everything. And so having the partner who's got intimate relationships, I mean, I was on a call earlier this week with a partner in Minneapolis I mean, he knows everybody in that region. And so you just that level of intimacy, I think becomes very, very important in times like this, doesn't it? >>Absolutely. And stay connected with with that. So we have about, you know, just a lot of, Ah, 21,000 active planners across across the world and staying close to the senior members of our largest partners is is really important to us. We had a We hosted a call earlier this week actually, with with their advisory council to test the programs that we've gotten in the market, Are they getting where they need, where they need the help the most? We take a lot of feedback with adjusted our programs. We're looking at this on a literally a daily basis right now on don't envisage that we would we would update pretty agile in terms of how we move that. But you know, to your point, having a partner network that we do have around by the hardware and software only on and is right, so learn what were wrong. You know what they're hearing from their pot from their clients and, you know, it allows us to more easily and quickly address needs across all of the IBM client set. >>So we interview a lot of partners, and, you know, when you talk to the familiar, they've got to make money. They have. The margin is very important to them, but it's almost it's table stakes. I mean, again, they can make money a lot of different ways. So what differentiates the suppliers is all these other things that you're talking about? Um, So I want to ask you when you came in to this this role, what you're doing priorities in terms of, you know, partner outreach, retaining that, that loyalty And what do you see changing a za result of this pandemic? >>Yeah, it's a great question. So look, four key priorities that we declared very early on and, by the way, you know, took over from John Touched at the time. And John has spent the last two years really transforming, um, your channel and the way we engage with channel. And so there was a lot of hard lifting that was already done, but it was sort of four. Things that we focused in on one was obviously, how do we continue? Accelerate IBM drive into the hybrid multi cloud market, particularly now with the integration of Red Hat into the organization. That's a very different, you know, sales motion that Wei had so accelerating that was one of the key parties, the 2nd 1 waas. And how do we continue to differentiate on the value and so ensuring that that our programs are staying up to speed and that they're being modernized? You know, the IBM possible program is being a program predominantly built on Recile over the last 10 years. Now the microchip that we're now talking about platforms not talking about consumption. And this week during Partner World, we're gonna talk about how we are going to evolve the part of the program to move into the rest partners who are building on platforms. And how about they're moving to consumption again, all around hybrid, multi, multi cloud. That's kind of the second thing skills, skills and expertise for out for a channel. We kind of have declared that we want our channel to be the most skilled channel in the industry, and it's really interesting, Dave, during this period of the pandemic, it's one of these times where we seem to have more recent and more time, and the partners have been giving us a lot of feedback to say during this time around. Workforce is home and is connected digitally. Why don't we? Wasn't IBM help with in enhancing the enablement programme certification? And so we're doing a lot around that. We see a Z great opportunity to CIO to really develop certifications and skills and expertise during this period. Um, and then the full thing is around winning in what we call out selective segments. And so we want our partners to operate across the IBM portfolio and across our client set. But where we really need the help and where we're putting the money in the programs is around the mid size organizations where they can bring the portfolio into places that it doesn't have this today, new clients or existing clients with with IBM. But the Jason like server was that kind of the four priorities and what we're seeing is and this situation that we're going through this pandemic going through, it's actually accelerating the areas around moving. My partner multi cloud cloud is becoming a differentiator for us and accelerating. I need to get a program that is relevant beyond just resell. But you know this, this concept of platforms and building. But as they build with their own light beyond platform and consumption, So I think it's it's actually accelerating what we've seen and have it moving forward. >>It's interesting what you're saying about resale. We've talked many, many years now on the Cube about the partner ecosystem. It really used to be about resale. You know, we have a majority of his box selling, and you could make a lot of money doing that, you know, a decade or two ago. But when Cloud came, partners really started to underst and that that there was a sea change happening in I T. For a while there, they thought, Wow, you know, this is really going to be challenging. Cloud's going to kill us. But what they realized after a while is with five exactly complex hybrid Cloud is it's not simple to cure and create a seamless experience across clouds on prime etcetera. So the huge opportunities open up, add value. So there's been a massive change in the mindset. Uh, and it sounds like particularly with digital, that the pandemic is going to accelerate that on. People are going to come out of this, um, almost having done some exercises, maybe in a little bit better shape than they came into it. You buy that premise? >>My question is no question about it. I mean, if you think about, you know, IBM portfolio for a minute. Um, and over the last really 6 to 9 months, we have containerized out our software portfolio. It's based on the, you know, the kubernetes container ization and an open ship. So we're ready from a portfolio perspective. And, you know, now we're catching up from a program perspective we're introducing this week and out in the world this concept of a build program and a service program, and so that is their will preserve and continue to evolve the cell program that resell. But you know this concept of the build program and the service programs and only extend the reach that we have to the data and the ecosystem that we're operating in new sets of partners. But is that one of transition, that business from recent consumption? We're going to support that. But then you have to your point around this whole digital everything from digital capabilities around, generating amount of opportunity and a little bit about that earlier with my program and the funding that we've got behind that the experience that we're we're offering as consultants, but also this concept of digital selling. You know, there's not all about partners are savvy around digital selling. So we've been doing that for many, many years. And, uh and so we're opening up digital selling Enablement sessions, Webinars consultancy and a bunch of assets that that IBM has and has invested in for many, many years and opening that up to you want to add channel? >>Yes, There was some great opportunities there for our partners. I mean, we The Cube has been covering the Red Hat Summit we had Jim Whitehurst on. We're in the process of scheduling Arvin so great to see, you know, kind of connect the dots between those franchises and identify the opportunities, and they're significant. I mean, Red Hat has a lot of momentum in the market. IBM has a huge presence, great opportunity to modernize applications, And then your point about the hardware side we just saw on IBM s latest earnings, released at the Fisher running in hardware right now on, uh, you know, obviously tailwind of the Z cycle, but other parts of the portfolio storage from 19%. So so some exciting times for partners, even though there's so much uncertainty in the market again, staying close to customers, you know, doing doing right by your employees, leveraging the IBM relationship where you're obviously providing a lot of backdrop in support. David, I wonder if you could just sort of wrap a bow around. You know, think 2020 is the virtual trucks are pulling away away from the virtual digital Mosconi. What's the take? Aways will give us the bumper sticker. >>Look, the bumper sticker is that it's never been a better time to be an idea. We've got a leading portfolio that is now ready for the new world. Will the consumption and the world building on um, we are, you know, we're modernizing our programs to ensure that you can make money here. There's a lot of money to be made as we as we get into this thing, this new world and we are behind you right now to support you financially and to get you develop digitally enabled guy. So never been a time to be an IBM partner right now. >>David. Great message. Thank you very much for coming on the Cube. And best of luck to you. Stay safe and ah, again, really appreciate your time. >>You too, Dave. Thanks very much. Bye. Site. >>You know, uh, and you're watching the Cube here at IBM? Think 2020. Our digital coverage. We'll be right back right after this short break. I'm Dave Volante, and you're watching the Cube? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCube's first day of coverage of MWC 23 from Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson. I'm literally in between two Daves. We've had a great first day of coverage of the event. There's been lots of conversations, Dave, on disaggregation, on the change of mobility. I want to be able to get your perspectives from both of you on what you saw on the show floor, what you saw and heard from our guests today. So we'll start with you, Dave V. What were some of the things that were our takeaways from day one for you? >> Well, the big takeaway is the event itself. On day one, you get a feel for what this show is like. Now that we're back, face-to-face kind of pretty much full face-to-face. A lot of excitement here. 2000 plus exhibitors, I mean, planes, trains, automobiles, VR, AI, servers, software, I mean everything. I mean, everybody is here. So it's a really comprehensive show. It's not just about mobile. That's why they changed the name from Mobile World Congress. I think the other thing is from the keynotes this morning, I mean, you heard, there's a lot of, you know, action around the telcos and the transformation, but in a lot of ways they're sort of protecting their existing past from the future. And so they have to be careful about how fast they move. But at the same time if they don't move fast, they're going to get disrupted. We heard some complaints, essentially, you know, veiled complaints that the over the top guys aren't paying their fair share and Telco should be able to charge them more. We heard the chairman of Ericsson talk about how we can't let the OTTs do that again. We're going to charge directly for access through APIs to our network, to our data. We heard from Chris Lewis. Yeah. They've only got, or maybe it was San Ji Choha, how they've only got eight APIs. So, you know the developers are the ones who are going to actually build out the innovation at the edge. The telcos are going to provide the connectivity and the infrastructure companies like Dell as well. But it's really to me all about the developers. And that's where the action's going to be. And it's going to be interesting to see how the developers respond to, you know, the gun to the head. If you want access, you're going to have to pay for it. Now maybe there's so much money to be made that they'll go for it, but I feel like there's maybe a different model. And I think some of the emerging telcos are going to say, you know what, here developers, here's a platform, have at it. We're not going to charge you for all the data until you succeed. Then we're going to figure out a monetization model. >> Right. A lot of opportunity for the developer. That skillset is certainly one that's in demand here. And certainly the transformation of the telecom industry is, there's a lot of conundrums that I was hearing going on today, kind of chicken and egg scenarios. But Dave, you had a chance to walk around the show floor. We were here interviewing all day. What were some of the things that you saw that really stuck out to you? >> I think I was struck by how much attention was being paid to private 5G networks. You sort of read between the lines and it appears as though people kind of accept that the big incumbent telecom players are going to be slower to move. And this idea of things like open RAN where you're leveraging open protocols in a stack to deliver more agility and more value. So it sort of goes back to the generalized IT discussion of moving to cloud for agility. It appears as though a lot of players realize that the wild wild west, the real opportunity, is in the private sphere. So it's really interesting to see how that works, how 5G implemented into an environment with wifi how that actually works. It's really interesting. >> So it's, obviously when you talk to companies like Dell, I haven't hit HPE yet. I'm going to go over there and check out their booth. They got an analyst thing going on but it's really early days for them. I mean, they started in this business by taking an X86 box, putting a name on it, you know, that sounded like it was edged, throwing it over, you know, the wall. That's sort of how they all started in this business. And now they're, you know, but they knew they had to form partnerships. They had to build purpose-built systems. Now with 16 G out, you're seeing that. And so it's still really early days, talking about O RAN, open RAN, the open RAN alliance. You know, it's just, I mean, not even, the game hasn't even barely started yet but we heard from Dish today. They're trying to roll out a massive 5G network. Rakuten is really focused on sort of open RAN that's more reliable, you know, or as reliable as the existing networks but not as nearly as huge a scale as Dish. So it's going to take a decade for this to evolve. >> Which is surprising to the average consumer to hear that. Because as far as we know 5G has been around for a long time. We've been talking about 5G, implementing 5G, you sort of assume it's ubiquitous but the reality is it is just the beginning. >> Yeah. And you know, it's got a fake 5G too, right? I mean you see it on your phone and you're like, what's the difference here? And it's, you know, just, >> Dave N.: What does it really mean? >> Right. And so I think your point about private is interesting, the conversation Dave that we had earlier, I had throughout, hey I don't think it's a replacement for wifi. And you said, "well, why not?" I guess it comes down to economics. I mean if you can get the private network priced close enough then you're right. Why wouldn't it replace wifi? Now you got wifi six coming in. So that's a, you know, and WiFi's flexible, it's cheap, it's good for homes, good for offices, but these private networks are going to be like kickass, right? They're going to be designed to run whatever, warehouses and robots, and energy drilling facilities. And so, you know the economics I don't think are there today but maybe they can be at volume. >> Maybe at some point you sort of think of today's science experiment becoming the enterprise-grade solution in the future. I had a chance to have some conversations with folks around the show. And I think, and what I was surprised by was I was reminded, frankly, I wasn't surprised. I was reminded that when we start talking about 5G, we're talking about spectrum that is managed by government entities. Of course all broadcast, all spectrum, is managed in one way or another. But in particular, you can't simply put a SIM in every device now because there are a lot of regulatory hurdles that have to take place. So typically what these things look like today is 5G backhaul to the network, communication from that box to wifi. That's a huge improvement already. So yeah, my question about whether, you know, why not put a SIM in everything? Maybe eventually, but I think, but there are other things that I was not aware of that are standing in the way. >> Your point about spectrum's an interesting one though because private networks, you're going to be able to leverage that spectrum in different ways, and tune it essentially, use different parts of the spectrum, make it programmable so that you can apply it to that specific use case, right? So it's going to be a lot more flexible, you know, because I presume the needs spectrum needs of a hospital are going to be different than, you know, an agribusiness are going to be different than a drilling, you know, unit, offshore drilling unit. And so the ability to have the flexibility to use the spectrum in different ways and apply it to that use case, I think is going to be powerful. But I suspect it's going to be expensive initially. I think the other thing we talked about is public policy and regulation, and it's San Ji Choha brought up the point, is telcos have been highly regulated. They don't just do something and ask for permission, you know, they have to work within the confines of that regulated environment. And there's a lot of these greenfield companies and private networks that don't necessarily have to follow those rules. So that's a potential disruptive force. So at the same time, the telcos are spending what'd we hear, a billion, a trillion and a half over the next seven years? Building out 5G networks. So they got to figure out, you know how to get a payback on that. They'll get it I think on connectivity, 'cause they have a monopoly but they want more. They're greedy. They see the over, they see the Netflixes of the world and the Googles and the Amazons mopping up services and they want a piece of that action but they've never really been good at it. >> Well, I've got a question for both of you. I mean, what do you think the odds are that by the time the Shangri La of fully deployed 5G happens that we have so much data going through it that effectively it feels exactly the same as 3G? What are the odds? >> That's a good point. Well, the thing that gets me about 5G is there's so much of it on, if I go to the consumer side when we're all consumers in our daily lives so much of it's marketing hype. And, you know all the messaging about that, when it's really early innings yet they're talking about 6G. What does actual fully deployed 5G look like? What is that going to enable a hospital to achieve or an oil refinery out in the middle of the ocean? That's something that interests me is what's next for that? Are we going to hear that at this event? >> I mean, walking around, you see a fair amount of discussion of, you know, the internet of things. Edge devices, the increase in connectivity. And again, what I was surprised by was that there's very little talk about a sim card in every one of those devices at this point. It's like, no, no, no, we got wifi to handle all that but aggregating it back into a central network that's leveraging 5G. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. >> I think you, the odds of your, to go back to your question, I think the odds are even money, that by the time it's all built out there's going to be so much data and so much new capability it's going to work similarly at similar speeds as we see in the networks today. You're just going to be able to do so many more things. You know, and your video's going to look better, the graphics are going to look better. But I think over the course of history, this is what's happening. I mean, even when you go back to dial up, if you were in an AOL chat room in 1996, it was, you know, yeah it took a while. You're like, (screeches) (Lisa laughs) the modem and everything else, but once you were in there- >> Once you're there, 2400 baud. >> It was basically real time. And so you could talk to your friends and, you know, little chat room but that's all you could do. You know, if you wanted to watch a video, forget it, right? And then, you know, early days of streaming video, stop, start, stop, start, you know, look at Amazon Prime when it first started, Prime Video was not that great. It's sort of catching up to Netflix. But, so I think your point, that question is really prescient because more data, more capability, more apps means same speed. >> Well, you know, you've used the phrase over the top. And so just just so we're clear so we're talking about the same thing. Typically we're talking about, you've got, you have network providers. Outside of that, you know, Netflix, internet connection, I don't need Comcast, right? Perfect example. Well, what about the over the top that's coming from direct satellite communications with devices. There are times when I don't have a signal on my, happens to be an Apple iPhone, when I get a little SOS satellite logo because I can communicate under very limited circumstances now directly to the satellite for very limited text messaging purposes. Here at the show, I think it might be a Motorola device. It's a dongle that allows any mobile device to leverage direct satellite communication. Again, for texting back to the 2,400 baud modem, you know, days, 1200 even, 300 even, go back far enough. What's that going to look like? Is that too far in the future to think that eventually it's all going to be over the top? It's all going to be handset to satellite and we don't need these RANs anymore. It's all going to be satellite networks. >> Dave V.: I think you're going to see- >> Little too science fiction-y? (laughs) >> No, I, no, I think it's a good question and I think you're going to see fragments. I think you're going to see fragmentation of private networks. I think you're going to see fragmentation of satellites. I think you're going to see legacy incumbents kind of hanging on, you know, the cable companies. I think that's coming. I think by 2030 it'll, the picture will be much more clear. The question is, and I think it's come down to the innovation on top, which platform is going to be the most developer friendly? Right, and you know, I've not heard anything from the big carriers that they're going to be developer friendly. I've heard "we have proprietary data that we're going to charge access for and developers are going to have to pay for that." But I haven't heard them saying "Developers, developers, developers!" You know, Steve Bomber running around, like bend over backwards for developers, they're asking the developers to bend over. And so if a network can, let's say the satellite network is more developer friendly, you know, you're going to see more innovation there potentially. You know, or if a dish network says, "You know what? We're going after developers, we're going after innovation. We're not going to gouge them for all this network data. Rather we're going to make the platform open or maybe we're going to do an app store-like model where we take a piece of the action after they succeed." You know, take it out of the backend, like a Silicon Valley VC as opposed to an East Coast VC. They're not going to get you in the front end. (Lisa laughs) >> Well, you can see the sort of disruptive forces at play between open RAN and the legacy, call it proprietary stack, right? But what is the, you know, if that's sort of a horizontal disruptive model, what's the vertically disruptive model? Is it private networks coming in? Is it a private 5G network that comes in that says, "We're starting from the ground up, everything is containerized. We're going to go find people at KubeCon who are, who understand how to orchestrate with Kubernetes and use containers in microservices, and we're going to have this little 5G network that's going to deliver capabilities that you can't get from the big boys." Is there a way to monetize that? Is there a way for them to be disrupted, be disruptive, or are these private 5G networks that everybody's talking about just relegated to industrial use cases where you're just squeezing better economics out of wireless communication amongst all your devices in your factory? >> That's an interesting question. I mean, there are a lot of those smart factory industrial use cases. I mean, it's basically industry 4.0 use cases. But yeah, I don't count the cloud guys out. You know, everybody says, "oh, the narrative is, well, the latency of the cloud." Well, not if the cloud is at the edge. If you take a local zone and put storage, compute, and data right next to each other and the cloud model with the cloud APIs, and then you got an asynchronous, you know, connection back. I think that's a reasonable model. I think the cloud guys figured out developers, right? Pretty well. Certainly Microsoft and, and Amazon and Google, they know developers. I don't see any reason why they can't bring their model to the edge. So, and that's really disruptive to the legacy telco guys, you know? So they have to be careful. >> One step closer to my dream of eliminating the word "cloud" from IT lexicon. (Lisa laughs) I contend that it has always been IT, and it will always be IT. And this whole idea of cloud, what is cloud? If AWS, for example, is delivering hardware to the edge where it needs to be, is that cloud? Do we go back to the idea that cloud is an operational model and not a question of physical location? I hope we get to that point. >> Well, what's Apex and GreenLake? Apex is, you know, Dell's as a service. GreenLake is- >> HPE. >> HPE's as a service. That's outposts. >> Dave N.: Right. >> Yeah. >> That's their outpost. >> Yeah. >> Well AWS's position used to be, you know, to use them as a proxy for hyperscale cloud. We'll just, we'll grow in a very straight trajectory forever on the back of net new stuff. Forget about the old stuff. As James T. Kirk said of the Klingons, "let them die." (Lisa laughs) As far as the cloud providers were concerned just, yeah, let, let that old stuff go away. Well then they found out, there came a point in time where they realized there's a lot of friction and stickiness associated with that. So they had to deal with the reality of hybridity, if that's the word, the hybrid nature of things. So what are they doing? They're pushing stuff out to the edge, so... >> With the same operating model. >> With the same operating model. >> Similar. I mean, it's limited, right? >> So you see- >> You can't run a lot of database on outpost, you can run RES- >> You see this clash of Titans where some may have written off traditional IT infrastructure vendors, might have been written off as part of the past. Whereas hyperscale cloud providers represent the future. It seems here at this show they're coming head to head and competing evenly. >> And this is where I think a company like Dell or HPE or Cisco has some advantages in that they're not going to compete with the telcos, but the hyperscalers will. >> Lisa: Right. >> Right. You know, and they're already, Google's, how much undersea cable does Google own? A lot. Probably more than anybody. >> Well, we heard from Google and Microsoft this morning in the keynote. It'd be interesting to see if we hear from AWS and then over the next couple of days. But guys, clearly there is, this is a great wrap of day one. And the crazy thing is this is only day one. We've got three more days of coverage, more news, more information to break down and unpack on theCUBE. Look forward to doing that with you guys over the next three days. Thank you for sharing what you saw on the show floor, what you heard from our guests today as we had about 10 interviews. Appreciate your insights and your perspectives and can't wait for tomorrow. >> Right on. >> All right. For Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's day one wrap from MWC 23. We'll see you tomorrow. (relaxing music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.