>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are live in Austin, Texas for CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, not to be confused with CUBE, 'cause we don't have a CUBE Con yet, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Next is Armon Dadgar who is the founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. So we interviewed your partner in crime Mitchell years ago, and we were riffing in our studio in Palo Alto, and essentially we laid out microsurfaces and all the stuff that's being worked on today. So, congratulations, you guys were right in your bet? >> It's funny to see how the reaction has changed over the last few years. Back then it used to be, we'd go in and it's like, people are like, did you catch a load of those crazy people who came in and talked about microsurfaces, and immutable, and cloud? It's like, get out of here. And now it's funny to be here at KubeCon, and it's like-- >> Well it was fun days back then, it was the purest in DevOps, and I say purest, I mean people who were really cutting their teeth into the new methodology, the new way to develop, the new way to kind of roll out scale, a lot of the challenges involved. Certainly, now it's gone mainstream. >> Armon: Yeah. >> You're seeing no doubt about it, I just came back from re:Invent, from AWS, Lambda, Server List. You got application developers that just don't want to deal with any infrastructure. That's infrastructure as code in the DevOps ethos, and then you got a lot of people in the infrastructure plumbing, and App plumbing world, who actually care about all this stuff, provisioning. So, how are you guys fitting into the new landscape? You guys riding along? Were you guys the first ones paddling out to these waves? How do you guys at HashiCorp look at all this growth? >> So the way we think about it is, I think there's a lot of market confusion right now, just because there's so much happening, and I mean, even just being here it's like, almost overwhelming to just like understand what exactly is this market landscape evolving to? And the way we're thinking about it is, there's really these four discrete layers with the four different people that are involved in tech, right? We have, on one side, we have our IT operators that are just trying to get a handle around, how do I provision things in Amazon, and now I have business groups coming and saying, okay I want to provision in Google, cloud and Azure. How do I really do that in way that I don't lose my sanity? You have your security people who are saying, I've lost my network perimeter, now what? Like, how do I think about secret management, and app identity, and this brave new world of cloud. You have your app developers who are like, I don't care about any of that, just give me a platform where I can push deploy and out the gate it goes, and you deal with it. And then you have the folks that are kind of making it all kind of plug together and work, the networking backbone, who is saying okay, before it was F5 and Juniper and Cisco. What does it mean for me as I'm going cloud? So, the way we're sorting of seeing ourself involved in all of this is, how do we help operators sort of get a handle around the provisioning side, with things like Terraform? How do we help the security folks with tools like Volt? How do we complement things like Kubernetes at the runtime layer, or provide our solution with Nomad, and then on the networking side, how do we provide a consistent service discovery experience with Consul? >> So you guys are really just now just kind of riding in with everybody else, kind of welcoming everybody to the party, if you will. (Armon laughs) What's the big surprise for you as you guys, you know it's not new to you guys, but as you see it evolving, what's jumping out at you? I mean, we're hearing service mesh, pluggable architectures. What are some of the things that's popping out of the woodwork that you're excited about? >> Honestly, the thing that I'm excited about is the excitement about infrastructure, right? I mean, when we started four, five years ago, it was an ice cold market. You'd go and talk to people, like, let's talking about how you're doing provisioning, or your deployment, or how your developers push things, and people were like, do we really have to? Like, let me get a coffee. And now it's like the opposite. It's like people are so excited to talk about the infrastructure, the bits and bytes of it, and I think that for us is probably the most exciting thing. So, whether you come here, and it's like the vibe is electric, right? Like, you guys can attest to it. It's crazy to see the growth of it, and so what's exciting for us is now these conversations are being lit up all across industry. >> Yeah. >> So whether you're talking about hey, how do I provision a thing on cloud, to what's a scheduler and how does that help me, there is this tremendous interest in it. >> Yeah, Armon, take us inside. You talked about, you know, it used to be kind of, we would be talking, is infrastructure boring? What is that change that's happening in customers? Has it just reached a certain maturity level, that now the business, they need to move faster, and therefore I need to adopt these kinds of architectures? What are you seeing when you're talking to customers? >> Yeah, I think that, the sort of, we heard that, the sort of, the line a few times is it's becoming boring, but I think what, and sometimes that's the goal, right? All of these tools, all of infrastructure is plumbing, at the end of the day, right? At the end of the day, the applications of the end users is really what should be, sort of, the exciting bit. And so, it's our responsibility, sort of, as the vendors here in the community, working on the infrastructure, to make the stuff boring. And I think, in that case, what we really mean is that it should be so reliable, so well documented, so scalable that it's brain dead to operate these things. And I think, step one is, let's get people excited about what's the state of the possible, what's the art of the possible in terms of, what do I get in terms of business agility of adopting stuff? Once people start adopting it, let's make it boring for them. Let's make them sure they don't regret it, and that they actually see those benefits. >> Well, it's reliable too. Boring equals reliability. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Yeah, it's interesting. When you walk through the provision, secure, connect, and run, it reminded me a little bit of Chen talking in the Keynote this morning about kind of the stack they see Kubernetes playing. >> Armon: Totally. >> You know, there's some people who will probably look, well, HashiCorp, you guys, you have a platform. You've got some of these projects. Is that, what's compatible, what's replaceable? What's the connection between what you are doing and what's happening in this space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, think a lot of people are like "Is it odd for HashiCorp to be here?" And I think it goes back to our lens on this market, Which is. we want to provide tools that are sort of discrete in each of these categories and we fully know that customers are not going to go all in on HashiCorp and say, I want all four layers, right? A lot of our customers are Kubernetes users. And so, for us the mission is, okay great, how do we make sure Terraform plays nice with Kubernetes? How do we make sure Vault plays nice? So I actually have a session in about an hour and a half here, talking about Vault integration with Kubernetes. And then, we have a developer advocate talking about using Console with Kubernetes as well. So for us, it's really a play nice story. How do we make all of these work together. >> It's a rising-tide-that-floats-all-boats market, I mean this is what's happening. You guys are actors in the ecosystem. It's not a land grab. No-one can own the stack. That's the whole point of this ecosystem, isn't it? >> It's so big, right, this market that we are talking about is so enormous. It's every organization writing software. (laughing) >> All right, give us the update on HashiCorp. What's going on, what's the latest and greatest you guys are out starting? We interviewed you guys about, I think three years ago, maybe four. Can't even remember now at this point. It seems like a blur. >> Yeah, I mean, so two months ago was our big HashiCom for our user com friends. And for us, the focus has really been saying okay, we've got our initial set of open-source tools out on the market in 2015. And we said okay, lets take a pause. There's already so many tools, lets just focus on how do we make the practitioners successful with each of these things and really go deep on all of them. And so, with things like Terraform, we've been partnering with all the various cloud providers, right, to say how do we have first class support for Azure, and Google Cloud and Amazon and make sure that you know, as you're adopting these clouds, Terraform meet you there. And then with things like Vault it's how do we integrate with every platform companies want to be on. So if you're using Kubernetes, how do we make sure Vault meets you there and integrates? So, for us that's been the focus, is staying sort of focused on the six core tools, and saying, "How do we make sure "they're staying up to date as technology moves?" And sort of deepening them. >> Yeah, because your users are going to be leveraging a lot of the new stuff. They're going to be, Kubernetes has certainly been great. What's your take on Kubernetes, if you can just take a minute to just, I mean, not new to this notion of runtime and orchestration. We talked about it with Mitchell in our session years ago, we didn't actually say Kubernetes, it wasn't around then, but we talked about the middleware of the cloud. That was our discussion, and that was essentially called Pass at that time, but now, no one talks about Pass any more, it's all kind of one. >> Right, right. >> What's your take on Kubernetes? How do you feel about it? What is it to you? >> Right, yeah, I think that's, so I think, twofold: I think what's exciting for me about it is, it reminds me in some sense like what Docker did for the industry, which, if we went to sort of the pre-Docker world nobody talked about immutable artifact based deploys. It was like this esoteric thing and then all of a sudden over night Docker made it popular. Whereas like, oh yeah, of course everything should be immutable and artifact based. And then when you look at what Kubernetes has done, it's built on that momentum to say, okay, that was step one. Step two is to say, you really should think about all your machines as a sort of shared pool of resources and move the abstraction up to the application to the service and think about, I'm deploying a service, I'm not deploying a set of VMs. And so it's been this sort of tidal shift in how IT thinks about deploying and delivering in application. It actually should be focused on the service. Focus on sort of abstracting away the machine, and that's super exciting. >> And what do you think the benefits will be with the impact of the marketplace? Faster development, I mean, what's some of the impact that you see coming out of this to go to the next level? >> Yeah, I mean the impact for me is really saying, when we really look at these approaches, in some sense they are not new, if you look at what Google's been doing since the early 2000s with Board, what Amazon's been doing, what Facebook's been doing internally. These big tech companies have showed if you are able to move up the abstraction and provide this higher level of utility to developers, you can support tens of thousands of services, innovate much more quickly, and for a while, that was sort of trapped in these big tech companies. And I think what Kubernetes is really doing is bringing that to everybody else and saying, actually adopting the same strategy lets you have that, right? >> Yeah, its a maturation of open source of this generation. You look at what Lyft, Uber are doing. Look at the Open Tracing for instance, pretty interesting stuff, because I mean they had to build their own stuff. >> Armon: Right. >> At scale, massive scale. Not like, you know, hundreds of thousands of services, millions of transactions a second. >> Armon: Right. >> I mean, that's daunting. >> That's daunting. >> Okay, so your take on open source. Okay, because now we're seeing a new generation of developers coming online. I've been saying it's been, a renaissance is coming. More of an artisan, a craft coming back to craftsmanship of coding. Not like UX Design side, become a craft in code. So you got a new, younger generation coming up. They don't even know what a load balancer is. >> Right. But they're happy not to deal with that as you said. And then you've got open source growing exponentially. Jim Zemlin at the Linux Foundation is saying 10% of the IP is going to be unique to the company. The rest is going to be that sandwich of open source. That's exponential growth. >> Right. >> You get exponential growth, new wave of software developers. You're a young gun, what's your view of the future? >> I mean, its funny, because it's like that first derivative is going exponential. The second derivative is going exponential. You know, I think we're going to see more and more innovation at the, ultimately what it's really about is delivering at the end application layer, right? Like, we're all here to be plumbing, right, and so the better we can be at being plumbing, the better the application developers can be at delivering innovation there. And so, I totally agree that the trend is going to go 90/10. And I think that was partly one of the reasons we started HashiCorp, because we'd look around and we're like it's insane that you have 30 to 50% of these companies doing platform engineering that's completely undifferentiated from anyone else. It's like you're deploying on the same vSphere VM as your competitor but you're rebuilding the whole platform. It's crazy, it's like you should have used an open source tool and focused on the application and not how to boot a vSphere into it. >> And the impact cost and time. >> Armon, one of the things we talk about, the only thing constant in this industry is that the pace of change keeps increasing. How are you dealing internally? How are customers doing? I think back two years, a year and a half ago I talked to a guy who was like, "Oh, Vagrant is like my favorite thing, "I've been using it ever." Now I talk to lots of customers that are, Vault is critical to their stacks that they're doing. HashiCorp looks very different than they did two years ago. How's that pace of change happening internally and with customers? >> Totally, and I think part of what we've done as actually since 2015 we haven't really introduced brand new products because our feeling is that it's becoming so confusing for the end users to really navigate this landscape. So, in 2015 we thought the landscape was confusing. Today it's multiplied by 100 or 1,000. >> We were at Amazon last week, we understand. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think honestly I think that is, when you look around here I think that's one of the challenges we're facing as an industry, is I go and meet with customers who are like, "Every time I refresh Hacker News, "there's 50 new things I need to go evaluate." It's like I don't know where to even begin. And its like, as a vendor I have a hard time keeping up with space, you know. I empathize with the end user who, it's not their full time job to do that. So, our goal has been to say how do we better distill at least the HashiCorp universe in terms of hey, here's how our pieces fit together and here's how we relate to everything else in the ecosystem, and kind of give our end users a map of okay, what tools play nice, how do these things sort of work together. But I think as a bigger industry we have a bit of an issue around the sheer amount of sort of innovation. How do we curate that and really make it more accessible? >> Armon, I've got to ask you a personal question. Obviously you guys are entrepreneurs doing a great job. Been following you guys, congratulations by the way. What are you most proud of as you look back and what do you wish you could do over? If you could get a mulligan and say "Okay, I want to do that differently." >> How much time do we have by the way? (laughing) >> 10 seconds, I'm going to ask you the parachute question next, go ahead. >> You know, I think the thing we're most proud of might be Terraform. I think it's fun to see sort of the level of ubiquity and the standardization that is taking place around it. Ah, the thing I wish we could take back is you know, probably our Otto project. I think the scope was so big for that thing and I think our eyes were probably a little wider than they should have been on that one. So I wish we had not committed to that one. >> You reign it in, catch the mistakes early. Okay, final question for you. You're a large customer and the plane is going down, you have 10 seconds to pick a parachute. Amazon, Azure or Google. Which one do you grab? >> Ooh. >> Go. >> You know, probably Amazon. No one ever gets fired for choosing Amazon. >> All right well Jeff Frick on our CUBE team said, "I'd take all three and call it Multi Cloud." >> That's the right answer. Armon, thanks for coming on appreciate it. Congratulations on your success at HashiCorp. >> My pleasure, thanks so much for having me. >> Got HashiCorp here on theCUBE, CTO and co-founder on theCUBE, Riding The Wave, CloudNative, Kupernetes, lot of great stuff happening. Microservices and containers. It's theCUBE doing our part here at KubeCon. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.