>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization. Right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly, Yes. >>And so as infrastructure, as code comes in, we talked to Bacar, talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integrations, configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. That's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today, it was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we tried to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into our line in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community invite in two where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection to the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a serviced layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd want to have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which we will be covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced Arlon at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why arlon, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened to need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I wanna run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. >>That's right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, >>So essentially standard like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what there between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things got controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on it's super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge re's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it's saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale mean? >>Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot. Rogue got Coan coming up and obviously this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time, there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, >>Well maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them, obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform now you's been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Open Stack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will, a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah. I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart Yeah. On this segment, what is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, I would you describe that when people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. Yeah. >>And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year. And, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud Native at scale? >>The the hyper square? >>Yeah. Yeah. Abras, Azure, Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, They, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep Well, >>They got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and the >>Platforms. Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware. And he kinda over, well he kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, Cloud native develop for developers. And John Feer with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Everyone, welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furry, your host of The Cube. We've got a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Mattor Makki, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloud native at scale. So enjoy the program, see you soon. Hello and welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Forry, host of the Cube. Pleasure to have here me Makowski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. >>Thank you for having >>Me. So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on Super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good and a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model, where you have a few large distributors of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of micro sites. These micro sites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think super cloud is a, is an appropriate term for >>That. So you brought a couple things I want to dig into. You mentioned Edge Notes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, o ot, and it kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around cloud flare shutting down a site here, there's policies being made at scale. These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because it's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenge. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud across multiple edges and >>Regions? Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have, deploy number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other access you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that skill really needs some well thought out, well-structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this change, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer's site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on all of these various factors at their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success cloud native, you know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can configure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotpot is. And when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the, the two factors of scale is we talked about start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and POS from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to try us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because yeah, you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say you radio sell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did it, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes like ishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem. Another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching, Can you share what our lawn is, this new product, What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. I'm very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arwan is, it's an open source project and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the sites of those clusters, security policies, your middleware plugins, and finally your applications. So what alarm lets you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what this solves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in. What's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, >>What would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right online. And if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each components, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what Arlon really does. That's like the I pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency >>For those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. C C I CD pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, the developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of application that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both those >>Teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud native developer. The OP teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, Kubernetes really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, c communities clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined in a declarative way. And Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so online addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>Ed, do I wanna get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model on from model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fi, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also opensource because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. I mean, what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that, Well, but that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for helpers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating me metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer, why should I be enthused about Arlo? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo customer? >>Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native es, and then we have our C I CD pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS CD pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of their groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Spico would be delighted. The folks that we've talked, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on s Amazon and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us >>Stability. Yeah, I think people are scared, not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Lon uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest rated and used CD open source tools that's out there, right? It's created by folks that are as part of Intuit team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is arlon also makes use of cluster api capi, which is a ES sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with algo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what Algo CD can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, Platform nine has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy Alon at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that sla. >>And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with, that are familiar with, with Argo and then Arlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo CD and they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our line before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customer's hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and, you know, give you an inventory and that, >>So customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yeah. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. >>And you provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value >>Here. That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up >>Profile and policy based declarative configuration and life cycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables Super club, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And alon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And, you know, alarm flows >>In one. Okay, so now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. There's under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for >>That. So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this Arlo solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, there's designed to do, the question is, what did, does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo, and, and, and on all the other goodness to automate, What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be in indications of things are effed up a little bit. >>Yeah. More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your, your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your, So those are, those are the >>Signals. This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the IIA terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. The company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and see, and boards is saying, how is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yeah. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things with things. So just >>Taking care of, and the CIO doesn't exist. There's no CSO there at the beach. >>Yeah. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for having >>Me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here at Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine b. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when opens Stack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now was realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructure's code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level. And then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure as configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah, yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. Not declaring, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code. It's code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space that, >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the by intu. They had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our inaugural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so to deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just really wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD Stock is down arm has been on rise, we've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in, in this community of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Maria Teel at our super cloud event, She's a cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built AR lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads at the end of the day, and I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with AR loan you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call the profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, just deploy it. Now what there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructure as configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things are controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure as configuration is built kind of on, it's a super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at CubeCon a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot rogue, that CubeCon coming up and now this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? It's the big story this year. What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jockeying for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of coupon and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career VMware over decades with them within 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here a platform. I you's been around for a while at this game, man. We talked about OpenStack, that project we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a Cloud Aati team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Opens Stack was an example and then Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyper squares? >>Yeah, yeah. A's Azure Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep well, >>They got great performance. I mean, from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, >>Right? Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyper skaters really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems, the platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kinda over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, cloud native develop for developers. And John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud is around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and Edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark I put on on there. Panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's just thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm, right? >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you to run the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what where we come into >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were kind of talking about the glory days in 2000, 2001 when the first ASPs application service providers came out. Kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloud-like >>It wasn't, >>And web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>In fact, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflations sea year. It's interesting. This is the first downturn, the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. Nope. Cause pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing infrastructure is not just some, you know, new servers and new application tools. It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Alon and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, More dynamic, more unreal. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think Super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say, okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's, you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pan or a single platform for you to build your innovations on, regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is as a pilot to get the conversations flowing with, with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third Cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration. And then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. >>What's, >>What's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have 1, 2, 3 container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here. It is in production at scale by many customers. And it, the beauty of it is yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool and >>Just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores about thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un on-prem as an air gap version. Can >>You give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your customer? Right. >>So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms, but they really needed to bring the agility. And they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact, the customer says like, like the Maytag service person, cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. What >>Benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we heard it all here, ops and security teams. Cause they're kind of part of one thing, but option security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right? >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams. So >>You working two sides to that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side. >>Okay. Another customer that I give an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on it's classic edge. It's classic edge, yeah. Right? They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a box, like a small little box, >>Right? And all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage thousands of >>Them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the locations. >>So you guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented, very well. >>Tucan, of course Detroit's >>Coming so, so it's already there, right? So we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud, not you have to rewrite and redevelop your application in business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexity is there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly being done. >>And I'll give you an example, I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations >>Are >>For the customer. Customer, >>The customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn. >>That's to wrap it up. I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now let's CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super Cloud. >>Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. CARSs being been in an asb, being in a real time software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative. You know, that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce is interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the gain, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of e-commerce, just putting up a shopping cart that made you an e-commerce or e retailer or an e e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Nascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Fur with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Hello and welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source, Docker now just the success of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Basco talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And that really means it developer just accessing resources. Okay, not clearing, Okay, give me some compute. Stand me up some, Turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean, now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these, these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. The that's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the computer by, in two, where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Bacar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in aural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system. So the deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, >>It's >>Gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built Arlan and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, So let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads. And you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases, it's like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon, you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say, I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications, and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes, you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers, which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on its super set of infrastructures code because it's an evolution. You need edge retro's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, So, all right, so Cloudnative at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloudnative at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean, people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at co con a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users. There, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we, we try to address with Arlan. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, So I'll put you on the spot road that Coan coming up, and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jocking for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's their ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue, and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there're just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. Yeah. >>B, you've had a storied career VMware over decades with them, obviously with 12 years, with 14 years or something like that. Big number. Co-founder here, a platform. Now you guys been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yeah, I think the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion tran billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers? >>Yeah. A's Azure, Google >>You mean from a business perspective, technical, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep >>Well, they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and, and platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, and I remember our first year doing the cube, Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kind of over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back in the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super Cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud. Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furr, your host of The Cube. We had a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Meor Ma Makowski, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloudnative at scale. So enjoy the program. See you soon. Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube. A pleasure to have here, me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having me. >>So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good, in a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of microsites, these microsites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think supercloud is a, is an appropriate term for that. >>So you brought a couple of things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, ot, and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infras infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deploy a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So I, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this chain, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors are their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native. You know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is in when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and pos from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem, another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. Very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the site of those clusters, security policies, your middleware, plug-ins, and finally your applications. So what our LA you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, what >>Would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Our line, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what arlon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for >>Those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. See c i CD pipe pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both >>Those teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer's. That's right. The option teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, ES really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, s clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined a declarative way, and Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>And do I want to get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or on-prem model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fision, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also open source, because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that long. But that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating met metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer. Yep. Why should I be enthused about Arla? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo? I'm a >>Customer. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS c D pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Ops FICO would be delighted. The folks that we've talk, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on ecos Amazon, and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the >>Ability to, Yeah, I think people are scared. Not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest and used CD open source tools that's out there. Right's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Alon also makes use of Cluster api cappi, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what City can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, platform line has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy online at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that >>Sla. And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with that are familiar with, with Argo and then rlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo adn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our land before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customers' hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment, as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and you know, give you an inventory. And that will, >>So if customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value here. >>That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up, >>Well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables supercloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And you know, our alarm fills in >>One. Okay. So now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for that. >>So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this RLO solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they're designed to do, the question is, what did does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. Yeah. >>More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because they're the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the maybe terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards is saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are >>Just taking care of the CIO doesn't exist. There's no ciso, they're at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just the success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructure as code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah. And that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at AR GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community meeting by in two, they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or applications specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think that the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We remember pointing for many years now that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at Argo Con, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself. You can, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructures code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And is my workloads running effectively? So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, >>Right? So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's kinda like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Armon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, so >>Essentially standard creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook. You deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I could just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on, it's as super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring and saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Could be nice, it has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot road that CubeCon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform. Now you guys have been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud ERO team at that time. We would to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys tr pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example when the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud native of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers, >>Yeahs Azure, Google. >>You mean from a business perspective? Yeah, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep, >>Well they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes, that's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the the new risk and arm ecosystems and the platforms. >>Yeah, not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer, it's, it's hardware and he got software and you got middleware and he kind over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back on the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud clouds around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark. I put on on that panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's interest thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm? Yeah, right. >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you do on the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what we, we come into, >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were gonna talk about the glory days in 2000, 2001, when the first as piece application service providers came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloudlike. >>It wasn't, >>And and web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>I, in fact you, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflation's here. It's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. >>Nope. >>Cuz the pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing Infras infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools, It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Ante and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, more dynamic, more real. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pain, a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is to, as a pilots, to get the conversations flowing with with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration and then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the, what's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere else in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have won two, three container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here, it is in production at scale by many customers. And the beauty of it is, yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool >>And just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores are thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un OnPrem as an air gap version. >>Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your >>Customer? Right. So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I dunno, hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms but they really needed to bring the agility and they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact the customer says like, like the Maytag service person cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. >>What benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams cuz they're kind of too part of one theme, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right. >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams, >>You working two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side side, okay. >>Another customer like give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on, It's a classic edge. It's classic edge. Yeah. Right. They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a net box box, like a small little >>Box and all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage >>Thousands of them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. So >>You guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented where you, well >>Con of course Detroit's >>Coming here, so, so it's already there, right? So, so we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud native, you have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexities there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly them. >>And I'll give you an example. I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations of the, for the customer. >>Customer, the customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn >>Best car. To wrap it up, I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now the CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super >>Cloud. Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. Cars being been, been in an asp, been in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative that know that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce was interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think, and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of eCommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't made you an eCommerce or an E retailer or an e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Mascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Feer with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. >>Hello. Welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around the solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

foreign [Music] to the special presentation of cloud native at scale the cube and Platform 9 special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development we're here with dick Lee who's the Chief Architect and co-founder of platform nine pick great to see you Cube alumni we we met at openstack event in about eight years ago or later earlier uh when openstack was going great to see you and great congratulations on the success of platform nine thank you very much yeah you guys been at this for a while and this is really the the Year we're seeing the the crossover of kubernetes because of what happens with containers everyone now was realized and you've seen what docker's doing with the new Docker the open source Docker now just the success of containerization and now the kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming bearing fruit this is huge exactly yes and so as infrastructure as code comes in we talked to baskar talking about super cloud I met her about you know the new Arlo our our lawn um you guys just launched the infrastructure's code is going to another level and it's always been devops infrastructure is code that's been the ethos that's been like from day one developers just code I think you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon connect the dots for us what is the state of infrastructure as code today so I think I think um I'm glad you mentioned it everybody or most people know about infrastructure as code but with kubernetes I think that project has evolved at the concept even further and these days it's um infrastructure as configuration right so which is an evolution of infrastructure as code so instead of telling the system here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it you know do step a b c and d uh instead with kubernetes you can describe your desired State declaratively using things called manifest resources and then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify so I think it's it's a even better version of infrastructure as code yeah and that really means it's developer just accessing resources okay that declare okay give me some compute stand me up some turn the lights on turn them off turn them on that's kind of where we see this going and I like the configuration piece some people say composability I mean now with open source so popular you don't have to have to write a lot of code this code being developed and so it's integration it's configuration these are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation machine learning assisting open source because you've got a lot of code that's what you're hearing software supply chain issues so infrastructure as code has to factor in these new Dynamics can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of as open source grows the glue layers the configurations the integration what are the core issues I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity right so um You know despite its expressive Power Systems like kubernetes and declarative apis let you express a lot of complicated and complex Stacks right but you're dealing with um hundreds if not thousands of these yaml files or resources and so I think you know the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key Challenge and opportunity in this space I wrote a LinkedIn post today those comments about you know hey Enterprise is the new breed the trend of SAS companies moving uh our consumer consumer-like thinking into the Enterprise has been happening for a long time but now more than ever you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in now with open source it's speed simplification and integration right these are the new Dynam power dynamics for developers so as companies are starting to now deploy and look at kubernetes what are the things that need to be in place because you have some I won't say technical debt but maybe some shortcuts some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure as code people have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructures code happen yes but to do it at scale yes is harder what's your take on this what's your view it's hard because there's a proliferation of of methods tools Technologies so for example today it's a very common for devops and platform engineering tools I mean sorry teams to have to deploy a large number of kubernetes clusters but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters and they're using a wide range of tools to do this right for example maybe ansible or terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the Clusters and then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the Clusters so you have this sprawl of tools you also you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with the more resources you have to manage and there's a risk of drift that people call that where you know you think you have things under control but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them so I think there's real need to kind of unify simplify and try to solve these problems using a smaller more unified set of tools and methodology apologies and that's something that we try to do with this new project Arlon yeah so so we're going to get to our line in a second I want to get to the yr lawn you guys announced that at argocon which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the community meeting by Intuit they had their own little day over their headquarters but before we get there um Bhaskar your CEO came on and he talked about super cloud at our inaugural event what's your definition of super cloud if you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical how would you look at the super cloud Trend that's emerging has become a thing what's your what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative well it's it's uh funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today speaking to you earlier today but I think based on what you said I I already get kind of some of the the gist and the the main Concepts it seems like uh super cloud the way I interpret that is you know um clouds and infrastructure um programmable infrastructure all of those things are becoming commodity in a way and everyone's got their own flavor but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business Problems by perhaps trying to abstract away you know all of those various implementations and then building uh um better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems yeah I remember it's a great great definition I remember not to date myself but back in the old days you know IBM had its proprietary Network operating system so the deck for the mini computer vintage deck net and sna respectively um but tcpip came out of the OSI the open systems interconnect and remember ethernet beat token ring out so not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there look just look up token ring you'll see if I never heard of it it's IBM's you know a connection for the internet at the layer two is Amazon the ethernet right so if TCP could be the kubernetes and containers abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history so at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value there's been an abstraction Yes somewhere yes what's your reaction to that I think um this is um I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and I forgot who originated it but um I think the saying goes like there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection right and we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified you know Computing and infrastructure management and I believe this trend is going to continue right the next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers I think that that's really a yeah it's going to continue it's interesting just when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on the rise we've been reporting for many years now that arm's going to be huge it has become true if you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds Azure AWS Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody the stuff that they're doing with the Silicon and the physics and the atoms the pro you know this is where the Innovation they're going so deep and so strong at is the more that they get that gets gone they have more performance so if you're an app developer wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd want to have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures code or infrastructure for configuration for provisioning for managing services and you're seeing that today with service meshes a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in this community of kubecon which we'll be covering so that brings up the whole what's next you guys just announced our lawn at argocon which came out of Intuit we've had Mariana Tesla out our supercloud event she's a CTO you know they're all in the cloud so there contributed that project where did Arlon come from what was the origination what's the purpose why our lawn why this announcement yeah so um the the Inception of the project this was the result of um us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier which is complexity right with all of this these clouds these infrastructure all the variations around and you know compute storage networks and um the proliferation of tools we talked about the ansibles and terraforms and kubernetes itself you can think of that as another tool right we saw a need to solve that complexity problem and especially for people and users who use kubernetes at scale so when you have you know hundreds of clusters thousands of applications thousands of users spread out over many many locations there there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management right so that means fewer tools more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency and and that's why um you know we built um Arlon and we built it um recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved so Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel it instead rests on the shoulders of several Giants right so for example kubernetes is one building block get Ops and Argo CD is another one which provides a very structured way of applying configuration and then we have projects like cluster API and cross-plane which provide apis for describing infrastructure so Arlon takes all of those building blocks and um builds a thin layer which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state so that's that's kind of the Inception and what's the benefit of that what does that give what does that give the developer the user in this case the developers the the platform engineer team members the devops engineers they uh get a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters but also applications and configurations they get away a system for provisioning configuring deploying and doing life cycle Management in a in a much simpler way okay especially as I said if you're dealing with a large number of applications so it's like an operating fabric if you will yes for them okay so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the abstraction or thin layer below is the infrastructure we talked a lot about what's going on below that yeah above our workloads at the end of the day and I talked to cxos and um I.T folks that are now devops Engineers they care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work they want to spend their time getting in the weeds figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened they need observability and they need to to know that it's working that's right and as my workloads running if effectively so how do you guys look at the workload side because now you have multiple workloads on these fabric right so workloads so kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can you know tell kubernetes I want to run this container this particular way or you can use other projects that are in the kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like k-native where you can express your application in more at a higher level right but what's also happening is in addition to the workloads devops and platform engineering teams they need to very often deploy the applications with the Clusters themselves clusters are becoming this commodity it's it's becoming this um host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it in many cases it's like an appliance right so devops teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down clusters are becoming more extremely like an ec2 instance spin up a cluster we've heard people used words like that that's right and before Arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as I explained so with our own you can kind of express everything together you can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this Ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies you can describe all of that using something we call the profile and then you can stamp out your app your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very essentially standard that creates a mechanism it's standardized declarative kind of configurations and it's like a Playbook you just deploy it now what's this between say a script like I have scripts I can just automate Scripts or yes this is where that um declarative API and um infrastructures configuration comes in right because scripts yes you can automate scripts but the order in which they run matters right they can break things can break in the middle and um and sometimes you need to debug them whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and Powerful you just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of uh figures it out and there are these things called controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire to say it's a much more powerful expressive and reliable way of getting things done so infrastructure as configuration is built kind of on it's a superset of infrastructures code because different Evolution you need Edge restaurant's code but then you can configure The Code by just saying do it you're basically declaring and saying go go do that that's right okay so all right so Cloud native at scale take me through your vision of what that means someone says hey what is cloud native at scale mean what's success look like how does it roll out in the future as you that future next couple years I mean people are now starting to figure out okay it's not as easy as it sounds kubernetes has value we're going to hear this year kubecon a lot of this what is cloud native at scale mean yeah there are different interpretations but if you ask me when people think of scale they think of a large number of deployments right geographies many you know supporting thousands or tens or millions of users there's that aspect to scale there's also um an equally important aspect of scale which is also something that we try to address with Arlon and that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this right so in order to describe that desired State and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in in relatively simple terms right and so we want uh the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible so there's I think there's going to be a number and there have been a number of cncf and Cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well and Arlon kind of Falls in in that category okay so I'll put you on the spot where I've got kubecon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this seg series out before what do you expect to see at kubecon issue it's the big story this year what's the what's the most important thing happening is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the the people jockeying for leadership I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space on the overall systems map about the different areas get runtime and observability in all these different areas what's the where's the action where's the smoke where's the fire where's the piece where's the tension yeah so uh I think uh one thing that has been happening over the past couple of coupons and I expect to continue and and that is uh the the word on the street is kubernetes getting boring right which is good right or I mean simple well um well maybe yeah invisible no drama right so so the rate of change of the kubernetes features and and all that has slowed but in a positive way um but um there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff if you look at a stack necessary for uh hosting applications based on kubernetes they're just still too many moving Parts too many uh components right too much complexity I go I keep going back to the complexity problem so I expect kubecon and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce a further simplifications uh to to the stack yeah Vic you've had a storied career VMware over decades with them uh obviously 12 years for the 14 years or something like that big number co-founder here platform I think it's been around for a while at this game uh we man we'll talk about openstack that project you we interviewed at one of their events so openstack was the beginning of that this new Revolution I remember the early days was it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native I think we had a Colorado team at that time I mean it's a joke we you know about about the dream it's happening now now at platform nine you guys have been doing this for a while what's the what are you most excited about as the Chief Architect what did you guys double down on what did you guys pivot from or two did you do any pivots did you extend out certain areas because you guys are in a good position right now a lot of DNA in Cloud native um what are you most excited about and what is platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this yeah so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years right it's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software it's powerful it solves new problems you know every year and you have new things coming out all the time right openstack was an example within kubernetes took the World by storm but there's always that complexity of you know just configuring it deploying it running it operating it and our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it you know easy for users to consume regardless of the technology right so the successor to kubernetes you know I don't have a crystal ball but you know you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications there are many projects around there who knows what's coming uh next year or the year after that but platform will a Platform 9 will be there and we will you know take the Innovations from the the community we will contribute our own Innovations and make all of those things uh very consumable to customers simpler faster cheaper always a good business model technically to make that happen yeah I think the reigning in the chaos is key you know now we have now visibility into the scale final question before we depart you know this segment um what is that scale how many clusters do you see that would be a high a watermark for an at scale conversation around an Enterprise um is it workloads we're looking at or or clusters how would you yeah how would you describe that and when people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale what's the at scale kind of threshold yeah and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large but roughly speaking when we say you know large-scale cluster deployments we're talking about um maybe a hundreds uh two thousands yeah and final final question what's the role of the hyperscalers you've got AWS continuing to do well but they got their core I asked they got a pass they're not too too much putting assess out there they have some SAS apps but mostly it's the ecosystem they have marketplaces doing over two billion dollars billions of transactions a year um and and it's just like just sitting there it has really they're now innovating on it but that's going to change ecosystems what's the role the cloud play and the cloud native at scale the the hyperscale yeah Abus Azure Google you mean from a business they have their own interests that you know that they're uh they will keep catering to they they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of uh services and and apis um so I don't think that's going to change right they're just going to keep well they got great uh performance I mean from a from a hardware standpoint yes that's going to be key right yes I think the uh the move from x86 being the dominant away and platform to run workloads is changing right that that that and I think the the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of you know the the new risk and arm ecosystems and platforms yeah that joking aside Paul maritz when he was the CEO of VMware when he took over once said I remember our first year doing the cube the cloud is one big distributed computer it's it's hardware and you've got software and you got middleware and uh he kind of over these kind of tongue-in-cheek but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer yes exactly it's we're back in the same game Vic thank you for coming on the segment appreciate your time this is uh Cloud native at scale special presentation with platform nine really unpacking super cloud rlon open source and how to run large-scale applications uh on the cloud cloud native philadelph4 developers and John Furrier with the cube thanks for watching and we'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up foreign [Music]

>>Well, good day and welcome back to the cube as we continue our segment featuring AWS star showcase we're with now Mike Bilodeau, who's in corporate development and operations at Kong. Mike, uh, thank you for joining us here on the cube and particularly on the startup showcase. Nice to have you and pong represented here today. Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. You bet. All right, first off, let's just tell us about pong a little bit and, and, uh, con cadet, which I know is your, your feature program, um, or, um, service. Oh, I love the name by the way. Um, but tell us a little bit about home and then what connect is all about to? Sure. So, uh, Kong as a company really came about in the past five years, our two co-founders came over from Italy in, uh, in the late, in the late aughts, early 20 teens and, uh, had a company called Mashape. >>And so what they were looking at and what they were betting on at that time was that API APIs, uh, were going to be the future of how software was built and how developers interacted with software. And so what came from that was a piece of, uh, they were running that shape as a marketplace at the time. So connecting developers sit in for an API so they can consume them and use them to build new software. And what they found was that actually the most valuable piece of technology that they created was the backbone for running that marketplace. And that backbone is what Kong is. And so they created it to be able to handle a massive amount of traffic, a massive amount of API APIs, all simultaneously. This is a problem that a lot of enterprises have, especially now that we've started to get some microservices, uh, started to, to have more distributed technologies. >>And so what Kong is really is it's a way to manage all of those different API APIs, all of the connections between different microservices, uh, through a single platform, which is called connect. And now that we've started to have Coobernetti's, uh, the, sort of the birth and the, the nascent space of service mesh con connect allows all of those connections to be managed and to be secured and made reliable, uh, through a single platform. So what's driving this right. I mean, um, you, you mentioned micro services, um, and Coobernetti's, and that environment, which is kind of facilitating, you know, this, uh, I guess transformation you might say. Um, but what's the big driver in your opinion, in terms of, of what's pushing this microservices phenomenon, if you will, or this revolution. Sure. And when I think it starts out at, at the simple active of technology acceleration in general, um, so when you look at just the, the real shifts that have come in enterprise, uh, especially looking, you know, start with that at the cloud, but you could even go back to VMware and virtualization is it's really about allowing people to build software more rapidly. >>Um, all of these different innovations that have happened, you know, with cloud, with virtualization now with containers, Kubernetes, microservices, they're really focused on making it, uh, so that developers can build software a lot more quickly, uh, develop the, the latest and greatest in a more rapid way. >>A huge driver out of this is just making it easier for developers, for organizations to bring new technologies to market. Uh, and we see that as a kind of a key driver in a lot of these decisions that are being made. I think another piece of it that's really coming about is looking at, uh, security, uh, as a really big component, you know, do you have a huge monolithic app? Uh, it can become very challenging to actually secure that if somebody gets into kind of that initial, uh, into the, the initial ops space, they're really past the point of no return and can get access to some things that you might not want them to similar for compliance and governance reasons that becomes challenging. So I think you're seeing this combination of where people are looking at breaking things into smaller pieces, even though it does come with its own challenges around security, um, that you need to manage, it's making it so that, uh, there's less ability to just get in and cause a lot of damage kind of all at once. Often Melissa malicious attackers. >>Yeah. You bring up security. And so, yeah, to me, it's almost, in some cases it's almost counterintuitive. I think about, I've got the, if I got this model, the gap and I've got a big parameter around it, right. And I know that I can confine this thing. I can contain this. This is good. Now microservices, now I got a lot of, it's almost like a lot of villages, right. They're all around. And, and uh, I don't have the castle anymore. I've got all these villages, so I have to build walls around all these villages. Right. But you're saying that there that's actually easier to do, or at least you're more capable of doing that now as opposed to living >>Three years ago. Well, you can almost think of it, uh, as if you have this little just right, and you might, um, if you have one castle and somebody gets inside, they're going to be able to find whatever treasury may have, you know, to extend the analogy here a bit, but now it's different, uh, 50 different villages that, you know, uh, an attacker needs to look in, it starts to become really time-consuming and really difficult. And now when you're looking at, especially this idea of kind of cybersecurity, um, the ability to secure a monolithic app is typically not all that different from what you can do with a microservice or with a once you get past that initial point, instead of thinking of it, you know, I have my one wall around everything, you know, think of it almost as a series of walls where it gets more and more difficult. Again, this all depends on, uh, that you're, you're managing that security well, which can get really time-consuming more than anything else and challenging from a pure management standpoint, but from an actual security posture, it is a way of where you can strengthen it, uh, because you're, you're creating more, um, more difficult ways of accessing information for attackers, as well as just more layers potentially of security. >>But what do you do to lift that burden then from, from the customer? Because like you said, that that that's a concern they really don't want to have. Right. They want, they want you to do that. They want somebody to do that for them. So what can, what do you do to alleviate those kinds of stress >>On their systems? Yeah, it's a great question. And this is really where the idea of API management and, um, in it's in its infancy came from, was thinking about, uh, how do we extract a way these different tasks that people don't really want to do when they're managing, uh, how API, how people can interact with their API APIs, whether that be a device or another human, um, and part of that is just taking away. So what we do and what API gate management tools have always done is abstract that into a, a new piece of software. So instead of having to kind of individually develop and write code for security, for logging, for, you know, routing logic, all these different pieces of how those different APIs will communicate with each other, we're putting that into a single piece of software and we're allowing that to be done in a really easy way. >>And so what we've done now with con connect and where we've extended that to you, is making it even easier to do that at a microservices level of scale. So if you're thinking about hundreds or thousands of different microservices that you understand and be able to manage, that's what we're really building to allow people to do. And so that comes with, you know, being able to, to make it extremely easy, uh, to, to actually add policies like authentication, you know, rate-limiting, whatever it may be, as well as giving people the choice to use what they want to use. Uh, we have great partners, you know, looking at the Datadog's, the Okta's of the world who provide a pretty, pretty incredible product. We don't necessarily want to reinvent the wheel on some of these things that are already out there, and that are widely loved and accepted by, uh, technology, practitioners and developers. We just want to make it really easy to actually use those, uh, those different technologies. And so that's, that's a lot of what we're doing is providing a, a way to make it easy to add this, you know, these policies and this logic into each one of these different services. >>So w if you're providing these kinds of services, right. And, and, and, and they're, they're, they're new, right. Um, and you're merging them sometimes with kind of legacy, uh, components, um, that transition or that interaction I would assume, could be a little complex. And, and you've, you've got your work cut out for you in some regards to kind of retrofit in some respects to make this seamless, to make this smooth. So maybe shine a little light on that process in terms of not throwing all the, you know, the bath out, you know, with, with the baby, all the water here, but just making sure it all works right. And that it makes it simple and, and, um, takes away that kind of complexity that people might be facing. >>Yeah, that's really the name of the game. Uh, we, we do not believe that there is a one size fits all approach in general, to how people should build software. Uh, there are going to need instances aware of building a monolithic app. It makes the most sense. There are going to be instances where building on Kubernetes makes the most sense. Um, the key thing that we want to solve is making sure that it works and that you're able to, to make the best technical decision for your products and for your organization. And so in looking at, uh, sort of how we help to solve that problem, I think the first is that we have first class support for everything. So we support, you know, everything down to, to kind of the oldest bare metal servers to NAMS, to containers across the board. Uh, and, and we had that mindset with every product that we brought to market. >>So thinking about our service mesh offering, for instance, um, Kula is the open source project that under tens now are even, but looking at Kumo, one of the first things that we did when we brought it out, because we saw this gap in space was to make sure that that adds first-class support for and chance at the time that wasn't something that was commonly done at all. Uh, now, you know, there there's more people are moving in that direction because they do see it as a need, which is great for the space. Um, but that's something where we, we understand that the important thing is making sure your point, you said it kind of the exact way that we like to, which is it needs to be reliable. It needs work. So I have a huge estate of, you know, older applications, older, uh, you know, potentially environments, even. I might have data centers that might've cloud being, trying to do everything all at once. Isn't really a pragmatic approach. Always. It needs to be able to support the journey as you move to, to a more modern way of building. So in terms of going from on-premise to the cloud, running in a hybrid approach, whatever it may be, all of those things shouldn't be an all or nothing proposition. It should be a phase approach and moving to, to really where it makes sense for your business and for the specific problem >>Talking about cloud deployments, obviously AWS comes into play there in a major way for you guys. Um, tell me a little bit about that, about how you're leveraging that relationship and how you're partnering with them, and then bringing the, the value then to your customer base and kind of how long that's been going on and the kinds of work that you guys are doing together, uh, ultimately to provide this kind of, uh, exemplary product or at least options to your customers. >>Yeah, of course. I think the way that we're doing it first and foremost is that, um, we, we know exactly who AWS is and the space and, and, you know, a great number of our customers are running on AWS. So again, I think that first class support in general for AWS environments services, uh, both from the container service, their, their Kubernetes services, everything that they can have and that they offer to their customers, we want to be able to support, uh, one of the first areas of really that comes to mind in terms of first-class integration and support is thinking about Lambda and serverless. Um, so at the time when we first came out, was that, again, it was early for us, uh, or early in our journey as product and as company, uh, but really early for the space. And so how we were able to support that and how we were able to see, uh, that it could support our vision and, and what we wanted to bring as a value proposition to the market has been, you know, really powerful. So I think in looking at, you know, how we work with AWS, certainly on a partnership level of where we share a lot of the same customers, we share a very similar ethos and wanting to help people do things in the most cost-effective rapid manner possible, and to build the best software. Uh, and, you know, I mean, for us, we have a little bit of a backstory with AWS because Jeffrey's us was a, an early investor in, in common. >>Yeah, exactly. I mean, the, the whole memo that he wrote about, uh, you know, build an API or you're fired was, was certainly an inspiration to, to us and it catalyzed, uh, so much change in, in the technology landscape in general, about how everyone viewed API APIs about building a software that could be reused and, and was composable. And so that's something that, you know, we, we look at, uh, kind of carrying forward and we've been building on that momentum ever since. So, >>Well, I mean, it's just kind of take a, again, a high level, look at this in terms of microservices. And now that it's changing in terms of cloud connectivity. Thank you. Actually, I have a graphic to that. Maybe we can pull up and take a look at this and let's talk about this evolution. You know, what's occurring here a little bit, and, and as we take a look at this, um, tell us what you think those, these impacts are at the end of the day for your customers and how they're better able to provide their services and satisfy their customer needs. >>Absolutely. So this is really the heart of the connect platform and of our vision in general. Um, we'd spoken just a minute ago about thinking how we can support the entire journey or, uh, the, the enterprise reality that is managing a, a relatively complex environment of modelists different services, microservices, you know, circle assumptions, whatever it may be, uh, as well as lots of different deployment methods and underlying tech platforms. You know, if you have, uh, virtual machines and Kubernetes, whatever, again, whatever it may be. But what we look at is just the different sort of, uh, design patterns that can occur in thinking about a monolithic application. And, um, okay. Mainly that's an edge concern of thinking about how you're going to handle connectivity coming in from the edge and looking at a Kubernetes environment of where you're going to have, you know, many Kubernetes clusters that need to be able to communicate with each other. >>That's where we start to think about, uh, our ingress products and Kubernetes ingress that allows for that cross applic, uh, across application communication. And then within the application itself, and looking at service mesh, which we talked a little bit about of just how do I make sure that I can instrument and secure every transaction that's happening in a, a truly microservices, uh, deployment within Kubernetes or outside of it? How do I make sure that that's reliable and secure? And so what we look at is this is just a, uh, part of it is evolution. And part of it is going to be figuring out what works best when it, um, certainly if you're, if you're building something from scratch, it doesn't always make sense to build it, your MDP, as, you know, microservices running on Kubernetes. It probably makes sense to go with the shortest path, uh, at the same time, if you're trying to run it at massive scale and big applications and make sure they're as reliable as possible, it very well does make sense to spend the time and the effort to, to make humanize work well for you. >>And I think that's, that's the, the beauty of, of how the space is shifting is that, uh, it's, it's going towards a way of the most practical solution to get towards business value, to, to move software quicker, to give customers the value that they want to delight them to use. Amazon's, uh, you know, phrase ology, if that's, uh, if that's a word, uh, it's, it's something of where, you know, that is becoming more and more standard practice versus just trying to make sure that you're doing the, the latest and greatest for the sake of, of, uh, of doing it. >>So we've been talking about customers in, in rather generic terms in terms of what you're providing them. We talked about new surfaces that are certainly, uh, providing added value and providing them solutions to their problems. Can you give us maybe just a couple of examples of some real life success stories, where, where you've had some success in terms of, of providing services that, um, I assume, um, people needed, or at least maybe they didn't know they needed until, uh, you, you provided that kind of development that, but give us an idea of maybe just, uh, shine, a little light on some success that you've had so that people at home watching this can perhaps relate to that experience and maybe give them a reason to think a little more about calm. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, there, there's a number that come to mind, but certainly one of the customers that I spent a lot of time with, uh, you know, become almost friends would be with, uh, with the different, with a couple of the practitioners who work there is company called Cargill. Uh, it's a shared one with us and AWS, you know, it's one we've written about in the past, but this is one of the largest companies in the world. Um, and, uh, the, the way that they describe it is, is that if you've ever eaten a Vic muffin or eaten from McDonald's and had breakfast there, you you've used a Cargill service because they provide so much of the, the food supply chain business and the logistics for it. They had a, uh, it's a, it's an old, you know, it's a century and a half old company. >>It has a really story kind of legacy, and it's grown to be an extremely large company that's so private. Uh, but you know, they have some of the most unique challenges. I think that I've, I've seen in the space in terms of needing to be able to ensure, uh, that they're able to, to kind of move quickly and build a lot of new services and software that touch so many different spaces. So they were, uh, the challenge that was put in front of them was looking at really modernizing, you know, again, a century and a half old company modernizing their entire tech stack. And, you know, we're certainly not all of that in any way, shape or form, but we are something that can help that process quite a bit. And so, as they were migrating to AWS, as they were looking at, you know, creating a CICB process for, for really being able to ship and deploy new software as quickly as possible as they were looking at how they could distribute the, the new API APIs and services that they were building, we were helping them with every piece of that journey, um, by being able to, to make sure that the services that they deployed, uh, performed in the way that they expected them to, we're able to give them a lot of competence and being able to move, uh, more rapidly and move a lot of software over from these tried and true, uh, you know, older or more legacy of doing things to a much more cloud native built as they were looking at using Kubernetes in AWS and, and being able to support that handle scale. >>Again, we are something that was able to, to kind of bridge that gap and make sure that there weren't going to be disruptions. So there, there are a lot of kind of great reasons of why they're their numbers really speak for themselves in terms of how, uh, how much velocity they were able to get. You know, they saying them saying them out loud on the sense fake in some cases, um, because they were able to, you know, I think like something, something around the order of 20 X, the amount of new API APIs and services that they were building over a six month period, really kind of crazy crazy numbers. Um, but it is something where, you know, the, for us, we, we got a lot out of them because they were open source users. So calling is first and foremost, an open source company. >>And so they were helping us before they even became paying customers, uh, just by testing the software and providing feedback, really putting it through its paces and using it at a scale that's really hard to replicate, you know, the scale of a, uh, a couple of hundred thousand person company, right? Yeah. Talking about a win-win yeah. That worked out well. It's certainly the proof is in the pudding and I'm sure that's just one of many examples of success that you've had. Uh, we appreciate the time here and certainly the insights and wish you well on down the road. Thanks for joining us, Mike. Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. I've been speaking with Mike Villa from Kong. He is in corporate development and operations there on John Walls, and you're watching on the cube, the AWS startup showcase.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hi buddy welcome to this special noob digital event where we're focusing in on data ops data ops in Acton with generous support from friends at IBM let me set up the situation here there's a real problem going on in the industry and that's that people are not getting the most out of their data data is plentiful but insights perhaps aren't what's the reason for that well it's really a pretty complicated situation for a lot of organizations there's data silos there's challenges with skill sets and lack of skills there's tons of tools out there sort of a tools brief the data pipeline is not automated the business lines oftentimes don't feel as though they own the data so that creates some real concerns around data quality and a lot of finger-point quality the opportunity here is to really operationalize the data pipeline and infuse AI into that equation and really attack their cost-cutting and revenue generation opportunities that are there in front of you think about this virtually every application this decade is going to be infused with AI if it's not it's not going to be competitive and so we have organized a panel of great practitioners to really dig in to these issues first I want to introduce Victoria Stassi with who's an industry expert in a top at Northwestern you two'll very great to see you again thanks for coming on excellent nice to see you as well and Caitlin Alfre is the director of AI a vai accelerator and also part of the peak data officers organization at IBM who has actually eaten some of it his own practice what a creep let me say it that way Caitlin great to see you again and Steve Lewis good to see you again see vice president director of management associated a bank and Thompson thanks for coming on thanks Dave make speaker alright guys so you heard my authority with in terms of operationalizing getting the most insight hey data is wonderful insights aren't but getting insight in real time is critical in this decade each of you is a sense as to where you are on that journey or Victoria your taste because you're brand new to Northwestern Mutual but you have a lot of deep expertise in in health care and manufacturing financial services but where you see just the general industry climate and we'll talk about the journeys that you are on both personally and professionally so it's all fair sure I think right now right again just me going is you need to have speech insight right so as I experienced going through many organizations are all facing the same challenges today and a lot of those pounds is hard where do my to live is my data trust meaning has a bank curated has been Clinton's visit qualified has a big a lot of that is ready what we see often happen is businesses right they know their KPIs they know their business metrics but they can't find where that data Linda Barragan asked there's abundant data disparity all over the place but it is replicated because it's not well managed it's a lot of what governance in the platform of pools that governance to speak right offer fact it organizations pay is just that piece of it I can tell you where data is I can tell you what's trusted that when you can quickly access information and bring back answers to business questions that is one answer not many answers leaving the business to question what's the right path right which is the correct answer which which way do I go at the executive level that's the biggest challenge where we want the industry to go moving forward right is one breaking that down along that information to be published quickly and to an emailing data virtualization a lot of what you see today is most businesses right it takes time to build out large warehouses at an enterprise level we need to pivot quicker so a lot of what businesses are doing is we're leaning them towards taking advantage of data virtualization allowing them to connect to these data sources right to bring that information back quickly so they don't have to replicate that information across different systems or different applications right and then to be able to provide that those answers back quickly also allowing for seamless access to from the analysts that are running running full speed right try and find the answers as quickly as they find great okay and I want to get into that sort of how news Steve let me go to you one of the things that we talked about earlier was just infusing this this mindset of a data cult and thinking about data as a service so talk a little bit about how you got started what was the starting NICUs through that sure I think the biggest thing for us there is to change that mindset from data being just for reporting or things that have happened in the past to do some insights on us and some data that already existed well we've tried to shift the mentality there is to start to use data and use that into our actual applications so that we're providing those insight in real time through the applications as they're consumed helping with customer experience helping with our personalization and an optimization of our application the way we've started down that path or kind of the journey that we're still on was to get the foundation laid birch so part of that has been making sure we have access to all that data whether it's through virtualization like vic talked about or whether it's through having more of the the data selected in a data like that that where we have all of that foundational data available as opposed to waiting for people to ask for it that's been the biggest culture shift for us is having that availability of data to be ready to be able to provide those insights as opposed to having to make the businesses or the application or asked for that day Oh Kailyn when I first met into pulp andari the idea wobble he paid up there yeah I was asking him okay where does a what's the role of that at CBO and and he mentioned a number of things but two of the things that stood out is you got to understand how data affect the monetization of your company that doesn't mean you know selling the data what role does it play and help cut cost or ink revenue or productivity or no customer service etc the other thing he said was you've got a align with the lines of piss a little sounded good and this is several years ago and IBM took it upon itself Greek its own champagne I was gonna say you know dogfooding whatever but it's not easy just flip a switch and an infuse a I and automate the data pipeline you guys had to go you know some real of pain to get there and you did you were early on you took some arrows and now you're helping your customers better on thin debt but talk about some of the use cases that where you guys have applied this obviously the biggest organization you know one of the biggest in the world the real challenge is they're sure I'm happy today you know we've been on this journey for about four years now so we stood up our first book to get office 2016 and you're right it was all about getting what data strategy offered and executed internally and we want to be very transparent because as you've mentioned you know a lot of challenges possible think differently about the value and so as we wrote that data strategy at that time about coming to enterprise and then we quickly of pivoted to see the real opportunity and value of infusing AI across all of our needs were close to your question on a couple of specific use cases I'd say you know we invested that time getting that platform built and implemented and then we were able to take advantage of that one particular example that I've been really excited about I have a practitioner on my team who's a supply chain expert and a couple of years ago he started building out supply chain solution so that we can better mitigate our risk in the event of a natural disaster like the earthquake hurricane anywhere around the world and be cuz we invest at the time and getting the date of pipelines right getting that all of that were created and cleaned and the quality of it we were able to recently in recent weeks add the really critical Kovach 19 data and deliver that out to our employees internally for their preparation purposes make that available to our nonprofit partners and now we're starting to see our first customers take advantage too with the health and well-being of their employees mine so that's you know an example I think where and I'm seeing a lot of you know my clients I work with they invest in the data and AI readiness and then they're able to take advantage of all of that work work very quickly in an agile fashion just spin up those out well I think one of the keys there who Kaelin is that you know we can talk about that in a covet 19 contact but it's that's gonna carry through that that notion of of business resiliency is it's gonna live on you know in this post pivot world isn't it absolutely I think for all of us the importance of investing in the business continuity and resiliency type work so that we know what to do in the event of either natural disaster or something beyond you know it'll be grounded in that and I think it'll only become more important for us to be able to act quickly and so the investment in those platforms and approach that we're taking and you know I see many of us taking will really be grounded in that resiliency so Vic and Steve I want to dig into this a little bit because you know we use this concept of data op we're stealing from DevOps and there are similarities but there are also differences now let's talk about the data pipeline if you think about the data pipeline as a sort of quasi linear process where you're investing data and you might be using you know tools but whether it's Kafka or you know we have a favorite who will you have and then you're transforming that that data and then you got a you know discovery you got to do some some exploration you got to figure out your metadata catalog and then you're trying to analyze that data to get some insights and then you ultimately you want to operationalize it so you know and and you could come up with your own data pipeline but generally that sort of concept is is I think well accepted there's different roles and unlike DevOps where it might be the same developer who's actually implementing security policies picking it the operations in in data ops there might be different roles and fact very often are there's data science there's may be an IT role there's data engineering there's analysts etc so Vic I wonder if you could you could talk about the challenges in in managing and automating that data pipeline applying data ops and how practitioners can overcome them yeah I would say a perfect example would be a client that I was just recently working for where we actually took a team and we built up a team using agile methodologies that framework right we're rapidly ingesting data and then proving out data's fit for purpose right so often now we talk a lot about big data and that is really where a lot of industries are going they're trying to add an enrichment to their own data sources so what they're doing is they're purchasing these third-party data sets so in doing so right you make that initial purchase but what many companies are doing today is they have no real way to vet that so they'll purchase the information they aren't going to vet it upfront they're going to bring it into an environment there it's going to take them time to understand if the data is of quality or not and by the time they do typically the sales gone and done and they're not going to ask for anything back but we were able to do it the most recent claim was use an instructure data source right bring that and ingest that with modelers using this agile team right and within two weeks we were able to bring the data in from the third-party vendor what we considered rapid prototyping right be able to profile the data understand if the data is of quality or not and then quickly figure out that you know what the data's not so in doing that we were able to then contact the vendor back tell them you know it sorry the data set up to snuff we'd like our money back we're not gonna go forward with it that's enabling businesses to be smarter with what they're doing with 30 new purchases today as many businesses right now um as much as they want to rely on their own data right they actually want to rely on cross the data from third-party sources and that's really what data Ops is allowing us to do it's allowing us to think at a broader a higher level right what to bring the information what structures can we store them in that they don't necessarily have to be modeled because a modeler is great right but if we have to take time to model all the information before we even know we want to use it that's gonna slow the process now and that's slowing the business down the business is looking for us to speed up all of our processes a lot of what we heard in the past raised that IP tends to slow us down and that's where we're trying to change that perception in the industry is no we're actually here to speed you up we have all the tools and technologies to do so and they're only getting better I would say also on data scientists right that's another piece of the pie for us if we can bring the information in and we can quickly catalog it in a metadata and burn it bring in the information in the backend data data assets right and then supply that information back to scientists gone are the days where scientists are going and asking for connections to all these different data sources waiting days for access requests to be approved just to find out that once they figure out how it with them the relationship diagram right the design looks like in that back-end database how to get to it write the code to get to it and then figure out this is not the information I need that Sally next to me right fold me the wrong information that's where the catalog comes in that's where due to absent data governance having that catalog that metadata management platform available to you they can go into a catalog without having to request access to anything quickly and within five minutes they can see the structures what if the tables look like what did the fields look like are these are these the metrics I need to bring back answers to the business that's data apps it's allowing us to speed up all of that information you know taking stuff that took months now down two weeks down two days down two hours so Steve I wonder if you could pick up on that and just help us understand what data means you we talked about earlier in our previous conversation I mentioned it upfront is this notion of you know the demand for for data access is it was through the roof and and you've gone from that to sort of more of a self-service environment where it's not IT owning the data it's really the businesses owning the data but what what is what is all this data op stuff meaning in your world sure I think it's very similar it's it's how do we enable and get access to that clicker showing the right controls showing the right processes and and building that scalability and agility and into all of it so that we're we're doing this at scale it's much more rapidly available we can discover new data separately determine if it's right or or more importantly if it's wrong similar to what what Vic described it's it's how do we enable the business to make those right decisions on whether or not they're going down the right path whether they're not the catalog is a big part of that we've also introduced a lot of frameworks around scale so just the ability to rapidly ingest data and make that available has been a key for us we've also focused on a prototyping environment so that sandbox mentality of how do we rapidly stand those up for users and and still provide some controls but have provide that ability for people to do that that exploration what we're finding is that by providing the platform and and the foundational layers that were we're getting the use cases to sort of evolve and come out of that as opposed to having the use cases prior to then go build things from we're shifting the mentality within the organization to say we don't know what we need yet let's let's start to explore that's kind of that data scientist mentality and culture it more of a way of thinking as opposed to you know an actual project or implement well I think that that cultural aspect is important of course Caitlin you guys are an AI company or at least that you know part of what you do but you know you've you for four decades maybe centuries you've been organized around different things by factoring plant but sales channel or whatever it is but-but-but-but how has the chief data officer organization within IBM been able to transform itself and and really infuse a data culture across the entire company one of the approaches you know we've taken and we talk about sort of the blueprint to drive AI transformation so that we can achieve and deliver these really high value use cases we talked about the data the technology which we've just pressed on with organizational piece of it duration are so important the change management enabling and equipping our data stewards I'll give one a civic example that I've been really excited about when we were building our platform and starting to pull districting structured unstructured pull it in our ADA stewards are spending a lot of time manually tagging and creating business metadata about that data and we identified that that was a real pain point costing us a lot of money valuable resources so we started to automate the metadata and doing that in partnership with our deep learning practitioners and some of the models that they were able to build that capability we pushed out into our contacts our product last year and one of the really exciting things for me to see is our data stewards who be so value exporters and the skills that they bring have reported that you know it's really changed the way they're able to work it's really sped up their process it's enabled them to then move on to higher value to abilities and and business benefits so they're very happy from an organizational you know completion point of view so I think there's ways to identify those use cases particularly for taste you know we drove some significant productivity savings we also really empowered and hold our data stewards we really value to make their job you know easier more efficient and and help them move on to things that they are more you know excited about doing so I think that's that you know another example of approaching taken yes so the cultural piece the people piece is key we talked a little bit about the process I want to get into a little bit into the tech Steve I wonder if you could tell us you know what's it what's the tech we have this bevy of tools I mentioned a number of them upfront you've got different data stores you've got open source pooling you've got IBM tooling what are the critical components of the technology that people should be thinking about tapping in architecture from ingestion perspective we're trying to do a lot of and a Python framework and scaleable ingestion pipe frameworks on the catalog side I think what we've done is gone with IBM PAC which provides a platform for a lot of these tools to stay integrated together so things from the discovery of data sources the cataloging the documentation of those data sources and then all the way through the actual advanced analytics and Python models and our our models and the open source ID combined with the ability to do some data prep and refinery work having that all in an integrated platform was a key to us for us that the rollout and of more of these tools in bulk as opposed to having the point solutions so that's been a big focus area for us and then on the analytic side and the web versus IDE there's a lot of different components you can go into whether it's meal soft whether it's AWS and some of the native functionalities out there you mentioned before Kafka and Anissa streams and different streaming technologies those are all the ones that are kind of in our Ketil box that we're starting to look at so and one of the keys here is we're trying to make decisions in as close to real time as possible as opposed to the business having to wait you know weeks or months and then by the time they get insights it's late and really rearview mirror so Vic your focus you know in your career has been a lot on data data quality governance master data management data from a data quality standpoint as well what are some of the key tools that you're familiar with that you've used that really have enabled you operationalize that data pipeline you know I would say I'm definitely the IBM tools I have the most experience with that also informatica though as well those are to me the two top players IBM definitely has come to the table with a suite right like Steve said cloud pack for data is really a one-stop shop so that's allowing that quick seamless access for business user versus them having to go into some of the previous versions that IBM had rolled out where you're going into different user interfaces right to find your information and that can become clunky it can add the process it can also create almost like a bad taste and if in most people's mouths because they don't want to navigate from system to system to system just to get their information so cloud pack to me definitely brings everything to the table in one in a one-stop shop type of environment in for me also though is working on the same thing and I would tell you that they haven't come up with a solution that really comes close to what IBM is done with cloud pack for data I'd be interested to see if they can bring that on the horizon but really IBM suite of tools allows for profiling follow the analytics write metadata management access to db2 warehouse on cloud those are the tools that I've worked in my past to implement as well as cloud object store to bring all that together to provide that one stop that at Northwestern right we're working right now with belieber I think calibra is a great set it pool are great garments catalog right but that's really what it's truly made for is it's a governance catalog you have to bring some other pieces to the table in order for it to serve up all the cloud pack does today which is the advanced profiling the data virtualization that cloud pack enables today the machine learning at the level where you can actually work with our and Python code and you put our notebooks inside of pack that's some of this the pieces right that are missing in some of the under vent other vendor schools today so one of the things that you're hearing here is the theme of openness others addition we've talked about a lot of tools and not IBM tools all IBM tools there there are many but but people want to use what they want to use so Kaitlin from an IBM perspective what's your commitment the openness number one but also to you know we talked a lot about cloud packs but to simplify the experience for your client well and I thank Stephen Victoria for you know speaking to their experience I really appreciate feedback and part of our approach has been to really take one the challenges that we've had I mentioned some of the capabilities that we brought forward in our cloud platform data product one being you know automating metadata generation and that was something we had to solve for our own data challenges in need so we will continue to source you know our use cases from and grounded from a practitioner perspective of what we're trying to do and solve and build and the approach we've really been taking is co-creation line and that we roll these capability about the product and work with our customers like Stephen light victorious you really solicit feedback to product route our dev teams push that out and just be very open and transparent I mean we want to deliver a seamless experience we want to do it in partnership and continue to solicit feedback and improve and roll out so no I think that will that has been our approach will continue to be and really appreciate the partnerships that we've been able to foster so we don't have a ton of time but I want to go to practitioners on the panel and ask you about key key performance indicators when I think about DevOps one of the things that we're measuring is the elapsed time the deploy applications start finished where we're measuring the amount of rework that has to be done the the quality of the deliverable what are the KPIs Victoria that are indicators of success in operationalizing date the data pipeline well I would definitely say your ability to deliver quickly right so how fast can you deliver is that is that quicker than what you've been able to do in the past right what is the user experience like right so have you been able to measure what what the amount of time was right that users are spending to bring information to the table in the past versus have you been able to reduce that time to delivery right of information business answers to business questions those are the key performance indicators to me that tell you that the suite that we've put in place today right it's providing information quickly I can get my business answers quickly but quicker than I could before and the information is accurate so being able to measure is it quality that I've been giving that I've given back or is this not is it the wrong information and yet I've got to go back to the table and find where I need to gather that from from somewhere else that to me tells us okay you know what the tools we've put in place today my teams are working quicker they're answering the questions they need to accurately that is when we know we're on the right path Steve anything you add to that I think she covered a lot of the people components the around the data quality scoring right for all the different data attributes coming up with a metric around how to measure that and and then showing that trend over time to show that it's getting better the other one that we're doing is just around overall date availability how how much data are we providing to our users and and showing that trend so when I first started you know we had somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 files that had been brought into the warehouse and and had been published and available in the neighborhood of a couple thousand fields we've grown that into weave we have thousands of cables now available so it's it's been you know hundreds of percent in scale as far as just the availability of that data how much is out there how much is is ready and available for for people to just dig in and put into their their analytics and their models and get those back into the other application so that's another key metric that we're starting to track as well so last question so I said at the top that every application is gonna need to be infused with AI this decade otherwise that application not going to be as competitive as it could be and so for those that are maybe stuck in their journey don't really know where to get started I'll start with with Caitlin and go to Victoria and then and then even bring us home what advice would you give the people that need to get going on this my advice is I think you pull the folks that are either producing or accessing your data and figure out what the rate is between I mentioned some of the data management challenges we were seeing this these processes were taking weeks and prone to error highly manual so part was ripe for AI project so identifying those use cases I think that are really causing you know the most free work and and manual effort you can move really quickly and as you build this platform out you're able to spin those up on an accelerated fashion I think identifying that and figuring out the business impact are able to drive very early on you can get going and start really seeing the value great yeah I would actually say kids I hit it on the head but I would probably add to that right is the first and foremost in my opinion right the importance around this is data governance you need to implement a data governance at an enterprise level many organizations will do it but they'll have silos of governance you really need an interface I did a government's platform that consists of a true framework of an operational model model charters right you have data domain owners data domain stewards data custodians all that needs to be defined and while that may take some work in in the beginning right the payoff down the line is that much more it's it it's allowing your business to truly own the data once they own the data and they take part in classifying the data assets for technologists and for analysts right you can start to eliminate some of the technical debt that most organizations have acquired today they can start to look at what are some of the systems that we can turn off what are some of the systems that we see valium truly build out a capability matrix we can start mapping systems right to capabilities and start to say where do we have wares or redundancy right what can we get rid of that's the first piece of it and then the second piece of it is really leveraging the tools that are out there today the IBM tools some of the other tools out there as well that enable some of the newer next-generation capabilities like unit nai right for example allowing automation for automation which right for all of us means that a lot of the analysts that are in place today they can access the information quicker they can deliver the information accurately like we've been talking about because it's been classified that pre works being done it's never too late to start but once you start that it just really acts as a domino effect to everything else where you start to see everything else fall into place all right thank you and Steve bring us on but advice for your your peers that want to get started sure I think the key for me too is like like those guys have talked about I think all everything they said is valid and accurate thing I would add is is from a starting perspective if you haven't started start right don't don't try to overthink that over plan it it started just do something and and and start the show that progress and value the use cases will come even if you think you're not there yet it's amazing once you have the national components there how some of these things start to come out of the woodwork so so it started it going may have it have that iterative approach to this and an open mindset it's encourage exploration and enablement look your organization in the eye to say why are their silos why do these things like this what are our problem what are the things getting in our way and and focus and tackle those those areas as opposed to trying to put up more rails and more boundaries and kind of encourage that silo mentality really really look at how do you how do you focus on that enablement and then the last comment would just be on scale everything should be focused on scale what you think is a one-time process today you're gonna do it again we've all been there you're gonna do it a thousand times again so prepare for that prepare forever that you're gonna do everything a thousand times and and start to instill that culture within your organization a great advice guys data bringing machine intelligence an AI to really drive insights and scaling with a cloud operating model no matter where that data live it's really great to have have three such knowledgeable practitioners Caitlyn Toria and Steve thanks so much for coming on the cube and helping support this panel all right and thank you for watching everybody now remember this panel was part of the raw material that went into a crowd chat that we hosted on May 27th Crouch at net slash data ops so go check that out this is Dave Volante for the cube thanks for watching [Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back inside the Sands. We are in Las Vegas. We are live here on theCUBE along with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls. We continue our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2019 by welcoming in Erik Kaulberg, VP of cloud solutions at Infinidat. Erik, good to see you today. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks, it's nice to see you too. >> So share a little bit at home for the folks who might not be too familiar with Infindat. I know you guys, big in the, in data storage, in terms of what's happening in the enterprise, but shed a little bit of light on that for us. >> Yeah, so Infinidat's all about re-inventing the next generation of data storage at multi-petabyte scale, whether that's for on-prem appliances where we have over 5.4 exabytes deployed now around the world, large enterprises, or whether that's through our cloud services like Neutrix Cloud, which we're talking a lot about today and through the conference, we're solving large data challenges for customers with blocker file storage requirements. We're doing that through technology that gets the price point of hard drives with the performance capabilities of solid state media, DRAM and flash, and we're doing it at very large scale, even though we kind of fly under the radar a bit from a marketing standpoint. >> So there's a lot of interesting things going on. Good storage demand. There's no question that the cloud is eating away at some of the traditional on-prem, and there's very few companies that are gaining share rapidly. You happen to be one of them. You know, Pure Storage grew 15% this quarter. Much, much lower. You know, generally HBE's shrinking. I think Delium C grew a little bit. You know, IBM has been down. I don't think they've announced yet. So you're seeing a couple of things. Cloud eating away, and then all this injection of flash. You're really the only guys who can make spinning disk run faster, as fast as flash. Everybody else is just throwing flash at the problem. And that's created headroom. So what are you guys seeing, 'cause you're clearly growing. You're a market share gainer. You have the advantage of being new and smaller. Talk about your business and how you're growing and why you're growing. >> It's nothing but growth, and it comes from this increase in the overall data that, requirements that customers have, and it comes from the economic aspects of that data. Fundamentally, data storage is all about economics, and we're able to deliver through our technical advantage of blending disk, flash, and DRAM an order of magnitude cost basis advantage, and that translates into direct financial benefits that allow ultimately enterprises to do more with their data. That's what we're all about. >> So as workloads shift to the cloud, there's an on-prem component. We're going to talk about cloud, multicloud, hybrid cloud, et cetera. But you've got a product called Neutrix. Talk about that and where it fits into this big macro trend that we've just been talking about. >> Absolutely. So Neutrix fits into the broader landscape in a couple of ways. First of all, many of the clients that we deal with are large enterprises, and they're in their relatively early stages of cloud transformation. So Neutrix provides an easy on ramp for them to come from our best in class on-prem infrastructure and make that data accessible in one or multiple clouds. And that kind of, maybe it's for test dev. Maybe it's for a disaster recovery, a pilot light scenario, or a couple other use cases for general purpose primary data storage. That's their on ramp to then taking advantage of the more strategic value of Neutrix, which is allowing clouds to compete for the business on the compute side of things. >> You kind of hit a key word in there. I'm talking about transform. And we've talked about that a lot, transformation versus transition, in terms of storage capabilities, enterprise storage capabilities, whatever. Take us through that transformation, if you will, and not the transition, and what's the paradigm change? What's going on in that space that's requiring people tom ake this dive into the deep end, if you will, and not just tickling the water with their toes. >> Well, I think there's two elements to it. There's a business and kind of a philosophical reorientation around taking advantage of flexible resources and allowing infrastructure to change over time and pay opex-based business models, that sort of stuff, and getting comfortable with that honestly is a journey into and of itself, because many procurement organizations, especially large organizations, they don't know what to do with a monthly bill or an uncommitted reserve amount or things like that. So part of it is being able to walk with the customer as they transform on the business side of things, and then the other side is accepting and going down the path of variable workloads, being able to accommodate large varieties of mixed data environments, and be agile on the technology side so that you can put the data where it needs to be with the performance that it needs to be and with the capabilities that it needs to be. >> All right, so we're pressed for time, so I really want to get a few topics in. For now, I see three main opportunities, broadly. One is on-prem, stealing market share. We talked about that a little bit. Two is this multicloud thing, and we'll talk about that, as well. If you're an on-prem company, you got to have a multicloud strategy, and even if you're a pure cloud company, you got to have a multicloud strategy. And the third is the cloud. You've got to embrace the cloud. If you deny the cloud, you're denying the biggest trend. So let's start with the cloud. What's your cloud strategy? What's your relationship with AWS and how are you taking advantage of that? >> So we're all about delivering our data services in whatever means, whatever physical infrastructure, whatever underlying business model the customer requires. With that in mind, we deliver Neutrix Cloud as a service for use with major public cloud environments, including AWS, and our relationship with AWS, you know, they recognize, I think, they would say that we bring access to large-scale, tier one environments all around the world coming from our base on the on-prem, and they're very interested in obviously working with the customers on cloud transformation at the scale that we operate, as well, so it's a mutually beneficial partnership. We're proud to be an APN member and all of that sort of thing. >> Yeah, I mean, if you can put your stack in the AWS cloud, which is what you're doing, it's going to drive other services, right? It's going to drive ML and SageMakers and backup and all kinds of great things. >> Absolutely. >> So the storage guys at AWS may not love you, but everybody else at AWS is going to be happy because you're driving other services. All right, let's talk about multicloud. It's obviously a controversial topic. We've got, John Furrier every year does a exclusive interview with Andy Jassy, and he's on the record, and I think he's right. He says, look it, multicloud is going to be more complex, less secure, and more expensive. He's right. And he goes, but he also recognizes that there are multiple clouds out there, and so organizations have to participate in multicloud strategies. I've predicted, as have Stu Miniman and John Furrier, Amazon's going to participate in that someday. They're going to do what they're doing in hybrid. So Amazon looks at multicloud as multiple public clouds and on-prem as hybrid. Coming back to Infinidat, what's your multicloud strategy? >> So the great thing about our strategy is that we're able to deliver the same data in whatever public cloud environments the customer wants to deploy. So we actually run our own independent infrastructure that sits just outside the walled gardens of all the major public clouds, and then we can provide network connectivity using their direct connect interfaces or similar private network interconnects, all API-driven, customer doesn't have to think about the underlying infrastructure, and fundamentally it allows them to subscribe to our storage as a service directly in whatever public clouds they choose. >> And now let's talk about the on-prem piece of that, which is the hybrid component, using Jassy's sort of definitional framework. You've got Flex. That extends your on-prem story. Talk about that a little bit. >> Absolutely. So our customers are saying, "Hey, I want the public cloud business model "on the on-prem environment," and Flex is our answer to that kind of question. So we deliver essentially hardware independence, price per gig per month. We maintain title to the asset, all that sort of stuff. And we're in charge of refreshing the infrastructure every three years, and we back it with a more than public cloud level availability guarantee, 100% availability guarantee for the Flex business model. >> We've seen companies, flash-based products as backup targets. Infinidat uses a combination of flash and spinning disks to keep costs down, and you've got math magic to make it as performant. One of the things I like what you're doing is you're partnering with I think most of, if not all the backup software vendors and opening up new market opportunities and expanding your TAM by partnering with those guys. Talk a little bit about, can you give us some specifics there? >> Absolutely. So, for example, we were presenting at the Veeam booth earlier this week about the intersection between InfiniBox and the Veeam backup software suite, and we have similar capabilities with some of the other backup platforms, as well. So two sides to that, one using the on-prem or cloud environments as a source, and there we have integrations with our snapshot technology specifically, and then two, using our InfiniGuard product on the on-prem side as a target, and there we have deep integration at an API level with the various backup platforms. So it's a cohesive universe where customers can take primary data, they can put it on Infinidat, they can use whatever enterprise backup platform. They can also put it as a target on Infinidat technology. >> And we're talking a lot about today. What about tomorrow? I mean, you know, what's the bigger picture down the road? What's your crystal ball telling you in terms of future complexities and challenges and what you see where this is headed? >> I think from a storage standpoint, at least, obviously lots of other complexities beyond that universe, but from a storage standpoint, people want to stop thinking about infrastructure. They want to think about cloud data services. They want to think about essentially going from storage arrays to storage clouds. We're doing that on on-prem, we're doing that in public cloud environments, and we're knitting it all together with our initiative called the Elastic Data Fabric. Our ultimate goal there and what we think customers really want is to be able to get the data services that they want at any given instant through the business model they care about independent of the underlying infrastructure, and that's what we're set up to deliver over the next couple of years at Infinidat. >> Well, Erik, thank you for the time. We appreciate that. By the way, Erik has become a very important Cuber, a VIC. His sixth appearance here on theCUBE. I wish we had a plaque or something to give you, but how about just an attaboy? >> Thanks very much. >> We appreciate that. >> Thanks, Erik. >> Back with more coverage here from AWS re:Invent 2019. You're watching us live. We're here on theCUBE. (techno music)

>>From London, England. It's the cube covering Koopa inspire 19 brought to you by Cooper. >>Hey, welcome to the cube. At least the Martin on the ground in London, a Coupa inspire 19 and I'm really excited to be joined by my last guest of the day. Save the best for last. We have Roger Hamoud, the EVP of products from Kupo Russia. Welcome back to the program. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming here. Of course, it's been great. We've had a, we've had a great day. Lots of buzz and excitement in the expo hall. The lights are jammed. It's happy hours. Happy hour for time for the Q during happy hour. So I know your keynote is tomorrow, so we'll get to that since we won't cover that. But talk to me about some of the new product innovations that Cuba announced today. The last time we spoke at inspire Las Vegas was only a few months ago. So what's new? Wow. A lot is new. It's, it's hard to believe. >>It's only been three months since then. It's been so close. Um, we very much continue our, um, focus on our community. Powered, uh, capabilities. Uh, this has been an incredible focus for us. Uh, so most recently we've added to all of the announcements we talked about at, uh, Vegas, uh, the, um, next waves of source together the opportunity to bring our community to come and source, uh, using their collective spent power and lots of new enhancements in that area. And also we're taking our supplier insights to the next level. One of the exciting capabilities our customers loved is that being part of a community member, I can come in and I can look at insights across all of my suppliers, uh, from the entire community. What we have, we've been working with them on is constantly adding more and more information to that. So now we have diversity data. >>So you can come in and you can search for suppliers that meet your women. Exactly. Exactly. Those are increasingly becoming more and more important. And then we can help companies source with the right suppliers much more easily right off the bat. Um, other areas that we've announced today was a coupon pay for expenses in early access program. Uh, we also announced invoice thing. Um, going on GA, when we talked in Vegas, it was still in the early access program, uh, capabilities and opening up our platform, Coupa as a platform. >> Uh, tell me about that, cause I wasn't quite clear when Rob was talking about it this morning. I thought I wanna dig in that with you. Kupa as a platform. What is that? What does it look like? So what's exciting about this is, so from our inception as a company, we were always had this old in Cooper about being open as an ally for the entire ecosystem that our customers might have. >>Our vision has always been, we want to be the, ultimately the business screen for everything business spend management related for our customers. So over years we kept taking the level of openness with our partners through different, um, different levels. If you say, if you will, for example, we started with just integrations in the beginning and we certify these integrations with coupon link. Um, we've taken it most recently where we allow partners to embed their mini apps within Cooper. So, for example, um, you can see in one of our partners EcoVadis now they have the capability to embed their supplier diversity data sustainability data right on the supplier record. Okay. And what's beautiful about this is that our customers, when they look at it, it looks a one beautiful unified experience and bringing all the data in context for what they want. Um, today, this morning, uh, Rob shared one example from Amadeus for, uh, trip integrations. >>So right on the homepage, I can see right within Cooper, I can see all their bookings that I've done with the travel provider, Mike pre-approvals, expense reports, all within one unified experience. But ultimately where we want to take coop as a platform is to become this app directory that, uh, third party partners and platform developers start building applications to extend Copa to bring more choice and value to our customers. Okay. Wow. Is that one of the things I saw Rob shared this morning was integration with Slack. Yes. So business folks can review, approve, or reject, like expenses for example, right from within Slack without even having to go into the platform. Yes, yes. That you hit on a very important concept, which we call the best UI is no UI in many ways. And the idea there is um, we always put ourselves in the user's shoes and ask ourselves how do we get them what they need with the least friction? >>In some cases that might involve a user experience because you need to ask them questions and make cases. We can automate the whole thing. So we just do it. And in many cases it means we go to them to where they are such as in Slack, I'm going to ask you to leave Slack, go somewhere else right then and there you should be able to approve or reject why you have to go anywhere else. Is that what, what Cuba means by no UI is the best UI, correct. Best UI is no UI. So ultimately wherever there is effort, we, we want to involve people only when they need to add value. That's it. And as much as we're able to automate, that's great. So we take that off of their table and we also adjust to the type of experience they need. Sometimes just a text message is enough sometimes to bring the data to me into a collaboration applications that I want. >>Um, sometimes we, we help them approve right from, um, a button. You don't even go into Kupa in order to do that. So always thinking of how we drive adoption, drive adoption. And it's an important concept, not just on the employee side of companies, it's even more so on the supplier side as well. Now when you think of any or like large organizations, they have tens of thousands of thousands of suppliers, many have hundreds of thousand suppliers. And the supplier ecosystem is everything from very small contractor, mom and pop shop, maybe two people or even one person all the way to very, very large companies. Okay. So as you look at that whole spectrum, you have to really think what does every audience need? And so in many cases, these people, um, they may need to do everything very quickly straight from an email without having to remember a user ID and a password to log into something. >>So eliminates friction at every step of the process for them. Wow. So let's talk about that Vic community insights. As we look at some of the, uh, the data that KUKA has gotten from finance leaders of the UK, that was like a survey that you guys, yes, I did recently have 253 decision makers and finance and some of the numbers were glaring. Like, wow, 96% of these decision makers said we don't have complete visibility correct. Of all of our spent. And then I was talking to a customer today who said, we've got now gotten 95% of all of our business men going through Coupa and that was within less than a year. Yes. So the opportunity there to deliver that visibility and those insights back to the community is, is pumped, is incredibly exciting. It's incredibly exciting. We're starting to see more and more the sentiment that's in key, loud and clear and um, by working constantly on the AE, the accelerated and coupon, we work on getting more and more of the spend for each and every customer under management. >>Um, we, when we start to projects for customers right off the bat, uh, we use our AI classification tools before they even start with Copa, where we start helping them get visibility onto all of their existing spent so that as they start into their Coupa journey, they are always looking at it holistically. Okay. So we know them, realize all of that data and provide them insights and reports right off the bat as well. Tell me about the customer interactions that you have as the EVP of product, lot of customers on the platform, a lot of data there. How are customers influential? Yes, yes. The direction. Like for example, you know, obviously I won't give a secret sauce, but for Cooper inspire 20, 20, what are some of the things that we might see customers influencing in terms of your roadmap that direction? Partnerships? Yes. Yes. >>Um, in general, the way, um, we've always worked, uh, at Coupa with our customers and we call them like our community members really is an inc very incredibly tight partnership. Um, we have three releases a year, January, may and September. Each of them packed with roughly about anywhere 72, 19 new features and capabilities. And all of these capabilities are touched either conceived by customers, with customers or touched by customers in the form of working with them on early access validation and all of that. And for me, one of my most favorite things I get to enjoy about working in SAS and, and uh, being at Cooper is that as soon as you are rolling out these capabilities and turning them on in the cloud, customers are using them. So even though like for example right now my entire team has just finished the walkthroughs of all our may release for inspire. >>And when we come back from this trip, uh, we will start the, you know, the, these, the design and, and um, definition. Um, often we might hear of new requirements that might come up and because we are InsightSquared able to, um, here at just what it makes sense and actually be incredibly responsive to what we see. >> How do you do that? How do you look through all the different responses and correlate that data and determine what makes sense to stack? Rank in terms of priorities for new features and new capabilities. So it's definitely an art and a science for sure. Um, but there's a framework that, uh, we follow, uh, since the beginning and we continue to follow and continues to serve us really well. Uh, which is always balancing between three drivers of customers, market and innovation. So the customer one is the obvious one of course, where and many events like this and one on ones and online community. >>We're talking to customers and they're specifically coming and asking for help in areas. Now, we may not build the feature exactly as they asked, but we listened to the pain beneath it and late using the latest technologies, we think of what is the best approach to solve the real pain that they have. So that's one part of the planning for every release cycle. The other is overall market. So for example, as we grow into more regions, uh, newer areas, new spend categories, um, new adjacent powered applications that our customers are needing, um, we started expanding in that area as well. Um, for example, we, right now in London, um, a lot of, uh, when I joined Cooper back in 2012, uh, we were just starting the, uh, entry into the, uh, Mel market and a lot of the product capabilities were market driven in the sense that we were spending a lot of time on compliance and different regulations and all of that. >>And the third is innovation. And what is always one of the things as we bring people on board at Cooper and talk about the framework, um, innovation for us is what we call pragmatic innovation. And it's comes from deep understanding what are the customer problems, what are the market problems? And then we ask ourselves using everything, the latest technologies, what is the best way? So you'll never hear us talk about AI for AI sake and blockchain and all of that would always talking about do we deeply understand the problem and what is the most appropriate? Um, so we call them CMI customer innovation. Uh, within my products organization, every product managers usually has a vision for their product and they have a full release roadmap. And in each full release roadmap, they are listing things as C M I in many cases the same capability is C and M and I, so it becomes an art and a science of balancing those types of things. >>But ultimately when we look at our collective release of CMI, we're asking ourselves, how much does this release accelerate the success goals of our customers? Right. And generally that's the framework that we use. Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you for explaining that. In terms of acceleration, some of the numbers that Rob shared this morning, we're, I think your customers are collectively approving invoices 30% faster than last year. I said medium, mid size market, customers are getting lot going live on Kupa in about four months. Correct. And mid large enterprises and about eight months. So. Right. And I've talked to a number of customers today about the speed of which they're able to get onto the platform and actually start seeing business value. So that's a free coupon for acceleration was well dissected today. Yes. Yes. It's definitely, yeah. Um, these are the vision areas that Rob talked about today. >>And in each of these vision areas, we're always asking ourselves, how do we continue to accelerate? So that's actually how one of the ideas was born around the turtle is I'm the hair, which is we want to accelerate cycle times, cycle times, and what are the different ways we can do this? What can we borrow from um, the, uh, our consumer lives to do this? And that's where the game unification came. Yes. And sure enough, it was one of those things that got people super excited and, and they're putting more attention into it. Well, the consumer side of our lives is we're so demanding because we can get anything that we want. We can buy products and services, we can pay bills with a clicker swipe. And so the B to C side from a payments perspective has innovated far more rapidly than the B2B side has. >>Correct. A lot more challenged there on the B2B side. But as consumers, we want a simple experience. One of the customers I spoke to who said when he was looking for technology, he's on what something that looks like Amazon marketplace. Yeah. Because from an adoption perspective, my teams will understand it. You so that the consumerization always interests me because we are those pretty much, you know, 12 plus hours a day and to see how software companies like KUKA are taking and meeting the needs of those customers, obviously it's not an overnight process. It gets people excited. It gets its absolutely is you right. That always fascinated me also how I've seen so many companies, um, like people almost have two personalities. Like they go into their personal life, they have a personality, they go into their professional lives and like, Oh, it's okay. It's like a backend system. >>This and this and this. Um, but increasingly the new generation is no longer tolerating and the drive is starting to just go find those shifts that happen changing, right? Yes, yes. But I can't, if I can have this in my personal life, then I need to be able to transact. Exactly. Exactly. Why does it take 45 days? Exactly. Exactly. Five days. Um, so last question for you. Since your keynote is tomorrow. Yes. What are some of the strategic visionary elements that you're going to leave the audience with? So I'm going to leave the audience with the key pillars of our strategy. Um, latest innovations we've done towards them and where we are taking them in the years ahead. One of the things I've always done over the years at inspire is we always share at preview of what, um, the community has been talking to us about and we're working with. >>And usually at the end of it, a lot of new community members might come in and ask to participate in some of the development because it means a lot to them for their own business. And then usually by the following inspire, we start showing these things actually live and, and, um, executed on. So the, um, the three strategic pillars I'll be sharing and talking about are all around the pipe that Trump talked about. Yep. How do I capture more and more spend under management? So we'll be talking about the consumerizing experiences voice using voice use Copa using facial recognition in Cooper. Uh, we'll be talking about new concepts around travel, around the group card school, applying all of it around the theme, focused on the um, end users and delight them, blow them away with consumer experiences. And then now that we do all of that, we can jump into the power users because we are increasing that spend under management. >>The theme by far is all around suite synergy suite synergy. So we seriously, this doesn't exist in the market. The market overall was all siloed applications. We're creating a new category and we've created these beautiful, elegant flows for our customers today. But there's also a wonderful long journey ahead in what we are taking up. Well maybe we'll get to talk about synergy at inspire 20 slowly. I will, we would love to have you again. Excellent. We're going to in Vegas for the afternoon. Best of luck in your keynote tomorrow and we'll see you the next inspire. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for Raja Hamoud. I, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from Coupa inspire 19 from London. Bye for now.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Welcome to this cube competition here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Were here a special guests to keep alumni investor An entrepreneur who do Sudhakar, would you Good to see you again, John. Always a pleasure. You've been on as an entrepreneur, founder. As an investor, you're always out. Scour in the Valley was a great conversation. I want to get your thoughts as kind of a guest analyst on this segment around the state of the Union for Enterprise Tech. As you know, we covering the price tag. We got all the top enterprise B to B events. The world has changed and get reinvent coming up. We got VM World before that. The two big shows, too to cap out this year got sprung a variety of other events as well. So a lot of action cloud now is pretty much a done deal. Everyone's validating it. Micro cells gaining share a lot of growth areas around cloud that's been enable I want to get your thoughts first. Question is what are the top growth sectors in the enterprise that you're seeing >> papers. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure talking to you over the years. You and me have done this so many times. I'm learning a lot from you. So thank you. You are so yeah, I think Let's dig into the cloud side and in general market. So I think that there are 34 areas that I see a lot that's happening a lot. Cloud is still growing, a lot 100% are more growth and cloud and dog breeders. And what is the second? I see, a lot of I T services are close services. This includes service management. The areas that service now isn't They're >> still my ops was Maybe >> they opt in that category. E I said With management, the gutter is coming with the new canticle a service management. So they're replacing idea some with a different. So that's growing 800% as a category tourist. RP according to again, the industry analysts have seen that it's going at 65 to 70% so these three areas are going a lot in the last one that I see a lot of user experience. Can you build? It's like it's a 20,000,000,000 market cap, something. So if you let it out, it's a cloud service Management services RP user experience cos these are the four areas I see a lot dating all the oxygen rest. Everybody is like the bread crumbs. >> Okay, and why do you think the growth in our P A. So how's the hype? Is it really what? What is going on in our pee, In your opinion, >> on the rumors I'm hearing or there is some companies are already 1,000,000,000 revenue run great wise. That's a lot in our piece. So it's not really a hype that really so that if you look and below that, what's happening is I'd be a Companies are automating automation. The key for here is if I can improve the user experience and also automate things. RPS started doing screen scraping right in their leaders, looking at any reservations supply chain any workflow automation. So every company is so complex. Now somebody has to automate the workflow. How can you do this with less number of people, less number, resources, and improve the productivity >> coming? R P A. Is you know, robotic process automation is what it stands for, but ultimately it's software automation. I mean, it's software meets cloud meets automation. It seems to be the big thing. That's also where a I can play a part. Your take on the A I market right now. Obviously, Cloud and A I are probably the two biggest I think category people tend to talk about cloud and a eyes kind of a big kind of territories. RPG could fall under a little bit of bulls, but what you take on a guy, >> Yeah, so I think if you look at our pier, I actually call the traditional appears to be historical legacy. Wonders and R P companies are doing a good job to transform themselves to the next level, right? But our pianist Rocky I score. It's no longer the screen skipping tradition, making the workflow understanding. So there are new technology called conversational Rp. There's actually a separate market. Guys been critical conversation within a Can I talk to in a dialogue manner like what you experienced Instagram are what using what's up our dialogue flow? How can I make it? A conversational RPS is a new secretary is evolving it, but our becomes have done a good job. They leave all their going out. A >> lot has been has great success. We've been covering them like a blanket on a single cube. Um, I got it. I got to get your take on how this all comes into the next generation modern era because, um, you know, we're both been around the block. We've seen the waves of innovation. The modern error of clouds certainly cloud one Dato Amazon. Now Microsoft has your phone. Google anywhere else really goes. Dev Ops, The devil's movement cloud native amazing, create a lot of value continues to do well, but now there's a big culture on cloud 2.0, what is your definition of cloud two point? Oh, how do you see Cloud 2.0, evolving. But >> I like the name close to party. I think it's your third. It is going to continue as a trained. So look, throw two point with eyes. I don't know what it will be, but I can tell you what it should be and what it can have. Some other things that should do in the cloud is cloud is still very much gun to human beings. Lot of develops people. Lot of human being The next addition to a daughter should have things done programmatically I don't need tens of thousands off Assad ease and develops people. So back to your air, upside and everything. Some of those things should become close to become proactive. I don't want to wait until Amazon. Easter too is done. If I'm paying him is on this money. Amazon should be notifying me when my service is going to be done. The subsidy eaters They operated Chlo Trail Cloudwatch Exeter. But they need to take it to a notch level. But Amazon Azure. >> So making the experience of deploying, running and building APS scalable. Actually, that's scales with Clavet. Programmable kind of brings in the RPI a mean making a boat through automation edge of the network is also interesting. Comes up a lot like Okay, how do you deal with networking? Amazons Done computing storage and meet amazing. Well, cloud and networking has been built in, I guess to me, the trend of networking kicks in big because now it's like, OK, if you have no perimeter, you have a service area with I o t. >> There's nothing that >> cloud to point. It has to address riel time programming ability. Things like kubernetes continues to rise. You're gonna need to have service has taken up and down automatically know humans. So this >> is about people keep on fur cloak. What should be done before the human in the to rate still done. It develops. People are still using terror from lot of scripting. Lot of manual. Can you automata? That's one angle The second angle I see in cloud 2.0 is if you step back and say What, exactly? The intrinsic properties of Claude Majors. It's the work floor. It's automation, but it's also able to do it. Pro, actually. So what I don't have to raise if I'm playing club renders this much money. Tell me what outrageous are happening. Don't wait until outage happens. Can you predict voted? Yes, they have the capability to women. It should be Probably steal it. No, not 100%. So I want to know what age prediction. I wonder what service are going down. Are notified the user's that will become a a common denominator and solutions will be start providing, even though you see small startups doing this. Eventually they become features all these companies, and they'll get absorbed by the I called his aircraft carriers. You have Masson agile DCP. They're going to absorb all this, a ups to the point that provide that as the functionality. >> Yeah, let's get the consolidation in second. I want to get your thoughts on the cloud to point because we really getting at is that there's a lot of white space opportunity coming in. So I gotta ask you to start up. Question as you look at your investor, prolific investor in start ups. Also, you're an entrepreneur yourself. What >> is? >> They have opportunities out there because we'll get into the big the big whales Amazon, who were building and winning at scale. So embarrassed entry or higher every day, even though it's open sources, They're Amazons, betting on open source. Big time. We had John Thompson talk about that. That was excessive. Something Nutella. And so what? What if I was a printer out there? Would what do I do? I mean, is there Is there any real territory that I could create a base camp on and make money? >> That's plenty. So there's plenty of white faces to create. Look, first of all your look at what's catering, look at what's happening. IBM is auto business in service management, CSL itself to Broadcom. BMC is sold twice to private companies. Even the CEO got has left our war It is. Then you have to be soldiers of the Micro Focus. The only company that's left is so it's not so in that area, you can create plenty of good opportunities. That's a big weight. >> Sensors now just had a bad quarter. So actually, clarity will >> eventually they're gonna enough companies to go in that space. That play that's based can support 23 opportunities so I can see a publicly traded company in service. No space in next five years. My production is they'll be under company will go a p o in the service management space. Same things would happen. Rp, Rp vendors won't get acquired A little cleared enough work for automation. They become the next day because of the good. I can see a next publicly traded company. What happened in the 80 operations? Patriotism Probably. Computer company Pedro is doing really well. Watch it later. Don't. They're going to go public next. So that area also, you see plenty of open record companies in a UPS. >> So this is again back to the growth areas. Cloud hard to compete on Public Cloud. Yes, the big guys are out there. There's a cloud enablers, the people who don't have the clouds. So h p tried to do a cloud hp They had to come out, they'll try to cloud couldn't do It s a P technically is out there with a cloud. They're trying to be multi cloud. So you have a series of people who made it an oracle still on the fence. They still technically got a cloud, but it's really more Oracle and Oracle. So they're kind of stuck in the middle between the cloud and able nervous. The Cloud player. If you're not a cloud player large enterprise, what is the strategy? Because you got HP, IBM, Cisco and Dell. >> So I don't know. You didn't include its sales force in that If I'm Salesforce, I want sales force to get in. They have a sales cloud marketing cloud commerce code. Mark is not doing anything in the area of fighting clothes. They cannot go from 100,000,000,000 toe, half a trillion trillion market cap. Told I D. They have to embrace that and that's 100% growth area. You know, people get into this game at some point. It'll be is already hard and 50,000,000,000 market cap. Then that leaves. What is this going to do? Cisco has been buying more security software assets, but they don't wanna be a public company, their hybrid club. But they have to figure out How can they become an arms dealer in escape and by ruining different properties off close services? And that's gonna happen. And I've been really good job by acquiring Red Heart. So I think some place really figuring out this what is happening. But they have to get in the gaming club they have to do. Other service management have begun and are here. They have to get experience. None of these guys have experienced in this day and age that you killed and who are joining the workforce. They care for Airbnb naked for we work. They care for uber. They care for Netflix. It is not betting unders. So if I'm on the border, Francisco, I'm not talking about experience That's a problem to me. Hey, tree boredom is not talking about that. That's what if I'm I know Mark is on the board. Paramount reason. But Mark is investing in all the slack. Cos then why is it we are doing it either hit special? Get a separate board member. They should get somebody else. >> Why? He wouldn't tell. You have to move. Maybe. I don't know. We don't talk about injuries about that. But I want to get back to this experience thing because experience has become the new expectation. Yes, that's been kind of a design principle kind of ethos. Okay, so let's take that. The next little younger generation, they're consuming Airbnb. They're using the serious like their news and little chunks be built a video service for that. So things are changing. What is? I tease virgin as the consumption is a product issue. So how does I t cater to these new experience? What are some of those experiences? I >> think all of them. But I think I d for Social Kedrick, every property, every product should figure out how to offer to the young dreamers how they were contributed offer to the businesses on the B two baby to see. So the eye has to think every product or not. Should I start thinking about how my user should consume this and how should out for new experiences and how they want to see this in a new way, right? It's not in the same the same computer networking. How can a deluded proactively How can a dealer to a point where people can consume it and make other medications so darn edition making? That's where the air comes in. Don't wait for me toe. Ask the question. Suggest it's like Gmail auto complete. Every future should be thinking through problem. Still, what can I do to improve the experience that changes the product? Management's on? And that's what I'm looking at, companies who are thinking like that connection and see Adam Connection security. But that has to happen in the product. >> I was mentioning the people who didn't have clouds HP, IBM, Cisco and Dell you through sales force in there, I kind of would think sales were six, which is technically a cloud. They were cloud before cloud was even cloud. They built basically oracle for the cloud that became sales force. But you mentioned service now. Sales force. You got adobe, You got work day. These are application clouds. So they're not public clouds per se they get Amazon Web service is, you know, at Adobe runs on AWS, right? A lot of other people do. Microsoft has their own cloud, but they also have applications as well. Office 3 65 So what if some of these niche cloud these application clouds have to do differently? Because if you think about sales force, you mentioned a good point. Why isn't sales were doing more? People generally don't like Salesforce. You think that it's more of a lock inspect lesson with a wow. They've done really innovative things. I mean, I don't People don't really tend to talk about sales force in the same breath as innovation. They talk about Well, we run sales for us. We hate it or we use it and they never really break into these other markets. What's your take on them? >> I think Mark has done a good job to order. Yes, acquiring very cos it has to start from the top and at the market. His management team should say, I want to get in a new space. He got in tow. Commerce. Claudia got into marketing. He has to know, decide to get into idea or not. Once he comes out, he's really taken because today, science. What is below the market cap? Com Part of it'll be all right. If I am sales force, I need to go back down. Should I go after service? No. Industry should go after entire 80 services industry. Yes or no, But they have to make a suggestion. Something with Toby Toby is not gonna be any slower. They will get into. I decide. They're already doing the eyesight and experience. They're king of experience. Their king off what they're doing. Marketing site. They will expand. Writing. >> What does something We'll just launched a platform. Yes, that's right. The former executive from IBM. That's an interesting direction. They all have these platforms. Okay, so I got together to the Microsoft Amazon, Um, Google, the big clouds and then everybody else. A lot of discussion around consolidation. A lot of people say that the recession's coming next year. I doubt that. No, nos. The consolidation continues to happen. You can almost predict that. But where do you see the consolidation of you got some growth areas as you laid out cloud I t service is our p a experience based off where looks like where's the consolidation happening? If growth is happening, they're words to tell. >> It was happening. Really Like I see a lot in cyber security. I'm in Costa Rica, live in public. You have the scaler, the whole bunch of companies. So the next level of cos you always saw Sisko Bart, do your security followed has been buying aggressively companies. So secret is already going to a lot of consolidation. You're not seeing other people taking it, but in the I T services industry, you'll start seeing that you're already seeing that in the community space. That game is pretty much over right. Even the ember barred companies, even Net are barred companies and the currency. So I think console is always going to happen. People are picking up the right time. It's happening across the board. It's a great time to be an entrepreneur creator value. They come this public. So it's like I think it's cannot anymore very time. Look to your point where the decision happens or not. Nobody can predict. But if a chance now, it's best time to raise money. Build a company. >> Well, we do. I think the analysis, at least from my perspective, is looking at all the events we go to is the same theme comes up over and over. And Andy Jassy this heat of a tigress always talks about Old Garden new Guard. I think there's two sides of the streets developing old way in a new way, and I think the modern architect of the modern era of computer industry is coming, and it looks a lot different than it. Waas. So I think the consolidate is happening on those companies that didn't make the right bets, either technically or business model wise, for they took on too much technical debt and could not convert over to the cloud world or these really robust software environment. So I think consolidations from just just the passing of holder >> seems pretty set up for a member of the first men. First Main Computing was called mainframe Era, then, with clients Herrera and Kim, the club sodas 6 2009 13 years old, the new Errol called. Whatever the name, it will be something with a n mission in India that things would be so automated. That's what we have new area of computing, So that's I would like to see. So that's a new trick, this vendetta near turn. So even though we go through this >> chance all software software sales data 11. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think the opportunity, for starters is to build a new brands. His new branch would come out. Let's take an example of a company that but after our old incumbent space dying market share not not very attractive from a VC standpoint. From market space standpoint, Zoom Zoom went after Web conferencing, and they took on WebEx and portability. And they did it with a very simple formula. Be fast, be cloud native and go after that big market and just beat them on speed and simple >> experience. They give your greatest experience just on the Web, conferencing it and better than sky better than their backs better than anybody else in that market. Paid them with reward. Thanks, Vic. He had a good >> guy and he's very focused. He used clouds. Scale took the value proposition of WebEx. Get rid of all the other stuff brought its simple to video conference. And Dr Mantra is one >> happening. The A applying to air for 87 management. A ops A customer surveys. >> So this is what our Spurs could do. They can target big markets debt and go directly at either a specific differentiation. Whether it's experience or just a better mouse trap in this case could win, >> right? And one more thing we didn't talk about is where their underpants go after is the area number. Many of these abs are still enterprise abs. Nobody really focused on moving this enterprise after the club. Hollis Clubbers are still struggling with the thing. How can I move my workload number 10%. We're closing the club 90% still on track. So somebody needs to figure out how to migrate these clouds to the cloud really seamlessly. The Alps are gonna be born in the cloud club near the apse. So how do you address truckload in here? So there's enough opportunity to go after enterprise applications clouded your application. Yeah, >> I mean, I do buy the argument that they will still be on premises activity, but to your point will be stealing massive migration to the cloud either sunsetting absent being born the cloud or moving them over on Prem All in >> all the desert I keep telling the entree and follow the money. When there is a thing you look for it Is there a big market? Are people catering there? If people are dying and the old guard is there to your point and is that the new are you? God will happen. And if you can bet on the new guard in your experience, market will reward you. >> Where is the money? Follow the money. Worse. What do we follow? Show me where it is. Tell me where it is >> That all of the clothes, What is the big I mean, if you're not >> making money in the club for the cloud, you are a fool right now. If there any company on making out making in the club as a CEO, a board member, you need to think through it. Second automation whether you go r p a IittIe automation here to make money on, said his management. Whether it's from customer service to support the operation, you got to take the car. Start off it if you are Jesse ever today and you're not making birds that cementing. I see it mostly is that still don't want to take it back. They want to build empires. The message to see what's right, Nice. Either you do it or get out. Get the job to somebody that >> I hold a lot of sea cells and prayer. Preparing for reinforce Amazon's new security cloud security conference and overwhelmingly response from the sea. So's chief security officer is we are building stacks internally. When I asked him about multi cloud, you know what they said? Multi cloud is B s. I said, Why? Because Well, we have a secondary cloud, but I don't want to fork my development team. I want to keep my people focused on one cloud. It's Amazon. Go Amazon. It's azure. We stay with Azure. I don't wanna have three development teams. So this a trend to keep the stack building internally. That means they're investing in building their own text. Axe your thoughts on that >> look, I mean, that's again. There's no one size fits all. There will be some CEOs who want to have three different silos. Some people have a hard, gentle stack like I've seen companies. Right now. They write, the court wants it, compiles, and it's got an altar cloth. That's a new irritability you're not. We locate a stack for each of them. You're right. The court order to users and NATO service is but using the same court base. That's the whole The new startups are building it. If somebody's writing it like this, that's all we have. Thing is the CEO. So there's that. The news he always have to think through. How can you do? One court works on our clothes? >> Great. You do. Thank you for coming on again. Always great to get your commentary. I learned a lot from you as well. Appreciate it. I gotta ask the final question as you go around the VC circles. You don't need to mention any names you can if you want, but I want to get a taste of the market size of rounds, Seed Round A and B. What are hot rounds? What sizes of Siri's am seeing? Maur? No. 10,000,000? 15,000,000? Siri's >> A. >> Um >> Siri's bees are always harder to get than Siri's. A seeds. I always kind of easier. What's your take on the hot rounds that are hot right now. And what's the sizes of the >> very good question? So I'm in the series the most easy one, right? Your concept. But the seed sizes went up from 200 K to know mostly drones are 1,000,000 2 1,000,000 Most city says no oneto $10,000,000. So if you're a citizen calmly, you're not getting 10 to 15. Something's wrong because that become the norm because there's more easy money. It also helps entrepreneurs. You don't have to look for money. See, this beast are becoming $2025 $5,000,000 pounds, Siri sees. If you don't raise a $50,000,000 then that means you're in good company. So the minimum amount of dries 50,000,000 and CDC Then after that, you're really looking for expansions. $100,000,000 except >> you have private equity or secondary mortgage >> keys, market valuations, all the rent. So I tell entrepreneurs when there is an opportunity, if you have something, you can command the price. So if you're doing a serious be a $20,000,000 you should be commanding $100,000,000.150,000,000 dollars, 2,000,000 evaluations right if you're not other guys are getting that you're giving too much of your company, so you need to think through all of that. >> So serious bees at 100,000,000 >> good companies are much higher than that. That'll be 1 52 100 And again, this is a buyer's market. The underpinnings market. So he says, more money in the cash. Good players they're putting. Whether you have 1,000,000 revenue of 5,000,000 revenue, 10,000,000 series is the most hardest, but its commanding good premium >> good time to be in our prayers were with bubble. Always burst when it's a bite, mark it on the >> big money. Always start a company >> when the market busts. That's always my philosophy. Voodoo. Thanks for coming. I appreciate your insight. Always as usual. Great stuff way Do Sudhakar here on the Q investor friend of the Cube Entrepreneur, I'm John for your Thanks >> for watching. Thank you.

[Music] hi I'm Stu Mittleman and welcome to a cube conversation really excited to have to the program a first-time guest and a user Vinny Chopra is an IT engineer with Medallia Vinny thank you so much for joining us thank you and - Vinny's left we have Krishnan bad Rena Ryan in who's a director of product marketing with Nutanix Chris thanks so much for you here okay so we always love to be able to dig in with the customers understand the challenges they're facing Chris let's set the table first I'm very familiar with Nutanix we go to all the new tannic shows and the like but for customers what is Nutanix to them why do they turn to Nutanix okay absolutely so I think it's a great time to be in IT you see new businesses that are sprouting at all the last 10 years or so starting with uber Airbnb specifically the ones we've really heard of that have disrupted some really really big industries right so technology is making it happen while IT teams are the ones that help make that happen and helps those CEOs disrupt they're not in the best of positions to utilize infrastructure they have today the way it's set up to be able to get more done be more agile and truly serve the needs of the business and help create those competitive differentiation which is why neutronics is here to help our partners within companies such as yourself to be able to be those people to lean in and help CEOs really achieve what they're trying to get that yeah that's great yeah we definitely see it used to be okay IT was a cost center IT you know business would actually ask for something in IT would often be the no or be really slow and do they work with that so Vinnie before we dig into the IDE piece of it tell us a little bit about Medallia the business what's happening what's Sherma Delia's been around for about 15 years now we're located in it we're headquartered in San Mateo we used to be in Palo Alto moved last year we have a brand new building right off 101 a 92 we our analytics company and we and there's a lot of lots of fields in analytics we specialize in an area called CX which stands for customer experience and our goal is to make our customers customers happy which therefore makes our customers happy and we specialize in doing surveys and then especially in designing surveys for different types of companies and then and then we analyze that data you know surveys well Vinny I I find there's very few companies that I talked to whose industries are stagnant or not changing much the analytic space space that we cover heavily you know here here on the cube and with our research it's boy has that changed a lot I mean five years ago we were talking very much about Big Data today you know all the AI ml and and things like that what what give us a little bit about what's it like being in that business you know fast driving your silicon valley-based I have to imagine that the business is going through a lot of changes that put stresses and strains on IT oh definitely so I better the IT industry for many years and IT area different big companies Sun Microsystems Juniper Networks NetApp in the past excite calm which was a search engine way back when before Google days I remember excite you know because Microsoft didn't they buy that or things well there was an early cerulean at home there's a partnership with that on but yeah excited people would confuse as to wait excite calm what kind of site was that it's like no no it's a search engine back before by the way audience for those of you that haven't been around a while it wasn't all just being in Google there were a lot of predecessors that there was four or five big search engines at that time so most of my company had been out we've always been packaging stuff in a box and selling it in this is my first time at an analytics company and it's it's like you said it's a fast-moving field things are being the things there's no development staging production type of stuff things are just continuously being put into production changes are made you know customized you know customer's applications and their interface so it's it's a very fast-moving alright and Vinny you say IT engineers your job what does that encompass what your role how many people in the group what is your sure so we have basically two IT groups we have one that manages our production data centers which are which our customers interface with and we have one that supports our engineers so I'm part of that group and it's kind of a week up art of the IT system and engineering team and that involves traditional IT tasks like backups monitoring application install new server installs managing storage networking basically keeping infrastructure and applications running as efficiently as possible and therefore keeping our engineers happy because they can get their work done and their development done okay sounds like a you know pretty typical from from what I hear from companies is it what do you hear from customers structure-wise challenges they're facing absolutely so it's very much in line with what you were just talking about where there's these multiple needs from the business and customer expectations so how do you really help IT organizations be able to keep up with those needs infrastructure needs to be the big quittez data needs to be Vic witness application services need to be Vic Willis and you need to be able to scale out as your business needs needs to do so to be able to serve all those multiple requirements so whether it's standardizing internal applications that are delivered through virtual desktops or deploying databases are starting up customer websites you need to be able to do that and respond as quickly as possible and if you're spending cycles on acquiring infrastructure deploying it making sure it's well integrated and then once it's up and running figuring out what went wrong and enjoying those multiple nights of pizza right to figure out how to get this thing going back to the way it was it's it just distracts you from what's important so it's only when you make infrastructure invisible and truly scalable very much cloud-like and and make it your own as a process of doing so can you truly be that business partner and you and I hope we've done that with you definitely all right so Bennie let's go inside was there a specific project rollout that you would that led towards Nutanix was there a pain point you were having would give us kind of the before and what was the mature so traditionally an IT you would you want to set up a new application at you in your infrastructure environment you would buy servers and you would buy storage you would buy HBA cards which helps you connect the servers to the storage you've got things like worldwide numbers to worry about getting the right cables getting the right cards and then you put it all together you get all the stuff delivered and then two weeks later you might have things working and but you having some permission issues security issues so it was always a big challenge to get things up and running so it was the fun of ideas let's roll up our sleeves let's turn those geek knobs and you know optimize everything and yeah within six months I'm sure everything's rocking in right everything's rocking rolling but you're still not quite confident that things are running you're worried that a card might go bad you're worried that a world-wide number might change somewhere or somebody might you know mess up your security so you would spend a lot of time just getting things up and running versus spending time on development and you know working with your people you're supporting and trying to try to enhance things versus just keeping things getting things up and running so Nutanix you know with the hyper-converged infrastructure you know what kind of we're not worried about those things anymore it has our storage needs it has our compute needs it has our memory needs so what was it a refresh cycle what was the impetus that led to looking at a new arc sugar as we were growing and entering base was growing an IT was growing and our requests and you know what we need to satisfy was increasing tremendously we before we were working with just individual desks like desktops or blade servers but each one was kind of working individually with its own storage its own applications not the notion things weren't being shared or anything and we were just growing fast so we needed some we need a new infrastructure where we could actually have everything working of most efficiently and be secure and fast and and easy to manage and so we did look at we did some analysis on a few products and Nutanix you know after some a few pocs Nutanix was our product of choice yeah I mean you described something we heard a lot is it used to be every application you would kind of build your own temple for it yeah let me build it let me get the performance I need let me optimize certain things let me forecast how it's gonna grow but I get islands out there as opposed to I want to be able to scale I don't want to worry about you know here's one of the challenges out there most people and across the board forecasting is really hard or impossible I either overestimated a bunch and then I bought stuff I didn't eat her right under missed it estimate it and then oh my gosh I need to look to a new architecture yeah and then things ended up burning like at 10% of you know you utilizing temperature of the resources that you're purchasing yeah I remain poor virtualization it was like you know six seven percent is usually what we were running awesome so challenges before and we had you know silos out there I couldn't share I couldn't do talk about that that role how did you get from that old environment to the new one there's something I said when you you look at this wave of really a distributed architecture in the old world migrations were really really tough yeah and you had to do it with every cycle hopefully moving to an architecture like this this is your last migration it was like you know my wife always said the last time that's the last time I never want to have to move well I T I'm sure those migrations were always painful what was the experience my heading to migrations was is one thing that we went through but also just now it's just setting up new VMs or new applications new servers it's you know within a few minutes versus hours as far as migration we were we were running a hypervisor before but like I said it was on individual servers so the migration was basically picking your VMs or your servers one at a time and just migrating over to Tenex once it was there and you know with the hypervisor tools that are available it's very easy to use it's like things like vmotion or different types of migration tools that Nutanix offers with their hv hypervisor so it was just it was pretty seamless it was just you just pick and choose and identify your destination host ons Nutanix node or Nutanix cluster and all your stories that you want to move it to and just go okay so so Vinnie you went through a bit of a bake-off to figure out the solution tell us when you finish the deployment how are you measuring what does success mean to in deployment of your stand point and give us the after what show does this change for your process your organization sure qualitatively success is when our engineers are smiling and not calling us too much and asking us go to lunch versus telling us about issues they're having so that's qualitatively quantitatively looking at performance CPU memory I ops performance on a storage how our applications responding that that's what we measured it quantitatively yeah did you know like what kind of utilization you're getting on your current infrastructure then with the Nutanix um also currently you meet as far as uh what you said you were lucky to get 10% in the old world do you measure that yeah we met her that week we kind of um you know we have our kind of have our choices of how much storage you want to use how much CPU remember you want to allocate to each VM and we we just monitor it and through the prism interface that Nutanix offers the image you can actually see performance of each VM and you can decide when to throttle things so but as far as you know how much we're utilizing we're you know we have it we have a structured where we have room to grow so yeah absolutely and if we do need to grow later we can easily add nodes or you know chassis wood notes yeah I think back to the early years of you know what we call hyper converge environments and it was like oh well they are monolithic blocks even if they're small and but you don't have flexibility there when I look at you know many of the solutions especially what Nutanix ups there's a lot of flexibility into how I can grow in scale and get the the utilization that I need but get the performance the ops and everything what I think from your customers how is that story play out today yeah I mean ultimately it's all about empowering people right it's about making IT people truly successful broadening their skillset giving them greater control over the full stack if you will right so it's no longer siloed across functions you're no longer found helpless relying on a different team to deliver upon something that was promised based on a certain SLA so how do we do that how do we make evolved functional specialists into IT journalists would then become cloud engineers true cloud engineers right the world is changing technology is adapting businesses are a craving for more and the only way we can keep up is to adapt ourselves and utilize the best of breed technologies that gives us that power so as a result we hear that a lot where we find a lot of a customer's progressing from being either storage admins network specialists but most likely virtualization admins who then become these cloud engineers if you will they reorganize that way they tend to be in a position where they are a lot more infrastructure we're talking about 100x of what they used to do prior in the in the earlier days so the the number of the ratios just grow immensely as well as the quality of service provided the SAS are far reduced as they used to be so all of that goodness that our customers are able to deliver to their state goes in the organization makes us feel good about what we do if any would love we talked about you know this the engineers now they're smiling and going out to further then you know fighting bugs anything complaining about is yeah anything kind of when you look at skill set if they're you know I've talked to some entertainment customer he's like oh you know I had that security project that was sitting on my desk for years I can finally tackle that or there's I can be more responsive to the business so that they don't you know I can engage with them rather than just going off running it and do in stealth IT any anything along those lines that you can share I mean one thing like IT admins we typically want to know everything right so we all know what's happening behind the scenes with Nutanix we don't have to as much but we still like to and so we we take the opportunity to you know do trainings learn what's happening in an interface you support when needed so as far as yeah as far as skills go I think it's you know the skills you keep up with it's just different like Chris mentioned it's different different type of administration like we're managing virtualization or managing cloud you know you're not just managing loans and cables you know I love you sounds like you've got a team that's got that intellectual curiosity wants to understand what's going on how was the how was the on-ramp how was the kind of the cycle to understand the Nutanix piece how did you yeah so we learned a lot of the POC of course that's when you kind of you know you can play around with stuff and break stuff and try to break stuff if you want we use professional we used some freshly served since to help us get set up originally and after that it was just kind of learning day to day and just improving improving our knowledge in different areas like not if we're not used to having everything in one like in you know in one kind of a couple jassi's storage and you know compute so that was a networking as well so that was a little bit not challenged technically but just just you just need to reset the mindset these are the way I used to do things versus the the way now I can't do three and in troubleshooting um you know the great thing is when we have troubleshooting we're not calling three different vendors like a networking company a storage company in a compute company and having them point fingers oh it's networking now we if I ever have an issue or a question I call Nutanix supporting it so if any how long has it been since you the solution was deployed about two and a half years now awesome so it but you first of all I love your viewpoint as to how Nutanix has changed in those two those two years and along those lines too now that you look at things through the lens of 2018 if you could go back to peers of yours what would you tell them now that you wish you had known back when you rolled this out a couple of years ago I would you know how to tell them there's a much easier way to minute you know the deploy and manager infrastructure and you know this is this is one of the new techniques is definitely something you should look at alright Chris what what advice do you give to the IP people of the world that you know I'm sure most of them heard about this but you know what misconceptions might they have what what things do we want to make sure we open the door for sure so as a former developer myself you know several years ago I think it's very easy for us to forget the role we play in our organizations we're not all about the applications we're not all over the speeds and feeds we had a critical core part of how businesses go to market and achieve success right so let us recognize that and use the best approaches that are available out there to be able to deliver that value right if it means going where the good hyper-converged infrastructure solution if it means leaning in and building new disruptive technologies and such that can help your businesses do better the other thing that I want to highlight is just as you are in the the customer service business I believe we are as well we pride ourselves on our support so if you have if ask questions about how hyper-converged infrastructure can add value call us give support a call you would be put in touch with anyone who can speak about all the values we deliver to our customers and begin to get some of those ideas all right Vinnie uh want to ask you you you've got some experience works for some of the you know really well-known companies you not only here in the valley but in tech in general what's exciting you these days what do you look at either in the analytic space or an IT that that's getting you excited for me it's I like to get up without stress and so ease of management ease of deployment in the IT area is very that that's one of things I look forward to like you know being able to do other stuff than just focusing on data you know routine stuff yeah and one of those lines if I could give you you know the one wish to help make that goal even more either from Nutanix or you know the broad ecosystem out there what would what would make your job even easier you know it's it's I don't know I'm trying to think of a good answer but it's typically you know when issues once them all we have application issues it would just be some kind of self-healing type things you know maybe or maybe some automatic adjustments that could be done that maybe something in the future yeah like I just means as far as resources allocated to different types of yeah all right Chris sure I'll let you have the final word there cuz absolutely once we simplify modernize the platform modernizing the application some it's definitely something I've heard from many of your customers as to you know that role of infrastructure really is to serve up and support those applications and that seems to be where it's going that's right that's right the the business partners right partners the business CFO whoever on the other side of the fence they care about applications and services not so much about all the blood sweat and tears we put into the infrastructure so I think it's an opportunity for us to help us elevate beyond the infrastructure and focus on apps and services along with making sure we have some of those self-healing capabilities such that take care of us and not require us to pay heat to all those infrastructure speeds and feeds so it's a great opportunity to do and you know be truly strategic in the company right alright well Chris really appreciate you sharing the updates Vinny really appreciate you sharing your customer story it's our purpose here at the cube to always help bring out the information so make sure to check out the cube net if you actually go to the top there's a search we've got over five or six thousand interviews we've done including many customers including many of Nutanix go in search Nutanix you'll find a plethora of content out there if you ever have any question for us please reach out to us see us at any of the shows or in between so I'm Stu minimun and thanks again for watching the cube thank you

>> Voiceover: Live, from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering Pure Accelerate 2017. Brought to you by Pure Storage. >> Welcome back to San Francisco, everybody. We're at Pier 70, one of the oldest piers in San Francisco which is not long for this place. It's going to be torn down after Pure Accelerate. I'm Dave Vellante and this is Stu Miniman, my co-host. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. Kent Petzold this year is the enterprise storage manager at Intermountain Healthcare and Vic Nagjee is back. He's the CTO of Healthcare for Pure Storage. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. Good to have you. >> Kent: Thanks for having us. >> Dave: You're welcome. So Kent, let's start with you because we talked with Vic a little bit already but tell us a little bit about Intermountain and your role. >> So, Intermountain is the biggest healthcare provider in Utah. We've got 22 hospitals, 185 clinics. My role there is, I manage the storage team. We've got eight petabytes of usable storage that we manage. Do lots and lots of backups. You know, all things data protection is under my purview as well. >> Now, have you always been a healthcare you know, practitioner, or is this relatively new for you? >> I've been at Intermountain for 24 years. >> Okay, so that's enough... To qualify you as knowing a little bit about healthcare, and so, my question is, relative to sort of other industries what's unique about healthcare? I mean, obviously it's highly regulated. You've got serious privacy, but you're dealing with, you know, many businesses are dealing with dollars and cents. You deal with a lot of budget, but you also deal with lives. Talk about some of the differences of healthcare and the particular stresses that puts on I.T. >> One of the big things is just doing updates of your technology. Because we deal with people's lives we have to be careful about when we do updates. You know, we've got to be cognizant of you know, "Is the emergency room full?" things like that, so it puts an extra challenge on us for when we need to take systems down to do updates. >> So that means, yeah because updates means downtime. >> Yeah, in the past, yes. >> That's not the case with Pure? Tell us about that, Vic. >> Kent: (laughing) >> Okay, so. Maybe, actually tell us about that a little bit. So, if you guys make a big deal out of it, last segment I turned it into dollars and cents because, on average, a migration, a RAID migration is a minimum of $50,000, minimum. In healthcare, it could be lives. >> Yeah, I mean in healthcare it's definitely lives but it's also a little bit more expensive because this is specialty data. So, the minimum you're looking at is about $1,000 per gigabyte. >> Dave: Per gigabyte? >> Per gigabyte transitioned over. Depending on the kind of application you're dealing with. In this particular case, you know it's more than just the expenses like you mentioned. It's interruption of care, interruption of service, which is not acceptable. So, the technology that we have and the architecture that we have allows us to go in to healthcare organizations such as Intermountain and say "You know what? You can have an environment that's "going to get better with time, because we're going to be able "to come in and not only upgrade your software, "we're also going to be able to come in "and upgrade your hardware and keep you on the tock cycle "every three years, update your controllers, "and so on and so forth with zero downtime." And what we're seeing is this big shift in the healthcare industry where, you know, Kent can relate to this. Typically we have these updates all teed up and lined up for three o'clock in the morning on some obscure weekend day, right, where if something goes sideways the number of experts you can reach are very very low and now we're seeing a switch with this kind of technology to actually have people say "You know what, two o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday? "I'm there. I'm doing it." >> Okay, so Kent. Take us through sort of your journey here. Sort of give us the before and after of Pure, what problem you're trying to solve, and how you solve that problem. >> So, we started down that with our insurance arm Select Health. We were getting calls pretty much every week. Sometimes two and three times a week for slow issues, and, you know, we're looking through logs. We're doing our monitoring and stuff and it was continuing and my architect was spending hours and hours every week >> Dave: Fun. >> trying to research this. So, we started looking at flash vendors. Pure was one of the only ones that came in, gave us the documentation we wanted, was able to answer the questions we had about our environment. It was a sybase database. AIX with some kind of weird settings, and we started testing it. We liked what we saw. We moved along, finally put it into production. They haven't called us about slows since we put it into production over there years ago. >> This is three years ago? >> Kent: Yeah. >> So it was really a performance issue you were having with your traditional apps, and you said you dropped in Pure Flash array and the problems just disappeared. >> Yeah, we haven't had any calls about slows since then. >> Dave: And if you had to sort of increase your capacity of the Pure system. >> We'd increase the capacity. In fact, because our three years was up we just did a head swap on them and added a little more capacity, and that went flawless. No outage for the business, and they were very happy about that. >> So as long-time storage practitioner... what's the difference in terms of... What difference does it make to you when you bring in a system like this? >> Some of the older systems to like do the head swap and get the new controller is weeks and weeks of planning and making sure you understand what's on their, what needs to move, what can take down times, what can't. I mean, there's a lot of planning that goes into that when you know there's going to be a disruption. So, with systems like Pure, we don't have to do as much planning. We still do a little bit so that we know what we're getting ourselves into and what's going to be at risk, but it's a lot less. There's no... >> So, Kent, how are you tracked by the business? What are kind of, do you have any measurements or KPI's that they look to you. We talked about uptime before, but, you know, how're you tracked, and how's that changed in say the last few years? >> It's changed quite a bit, cause we're not having to track, especially in our tier one apps that are on Pure we're not having to track the performance as much. So we're able to re-look at what our KPI's are, and come up with ones that are meaningful for us. And really, with the simplicity of it, it kind of helps us to become more of a trusted advisor to our business and be able to help them solve their problems instead of continually pulling knobs and fighting fires. >> Vik, I'm curious. How do you help the storage administrator today? I remember, Pure used to have streaming on its website. Certain data points from customers. What are you seeing today? What's helping them shift what they're working on, get more done with what they're doing? >> Kent: Yeah, absolutely. And just to come back to that and echo the point here Kent just made, essentially we're seeing the successful organizations in healthcare and possibly other verticals too, but I live and breath healthcare, right. So, healthcare. I.T. organizations that are able to make the transition to a trusted advisor, to a partner to the business are really making those leaps ahead. In terms of better patient care outcomes and also cost mitigation. Now, in terms of what we offer, right. So, it's the simplicity that's at the heart of everything. Once you set it up and you basically it's like Ron Popeil used to say. "You set it and forget it." Right? You have that experience. And then, it's not so much about having practitioners say "There's black magic going on "and we're going to just trust it." We have to build a transparency in there, and we have to demonstrate that at a glance, single pane there's answers to all of the questions and more that they might have. The telemetry that we're getting off of these systems allows us to do things with machine learning and AI and a lot of business intelligence the backend to be able to say "Hey, over eighty-some percent of all "of our problem tickets that are ever opened "are opened by Pure on behalf of our customers." And say "Hey, you have something that's demonstrating "a characteristic that is similar to what we've seen "across the world, somewhere else, "and you might run into a problem, "so let's just go resolve it." >> So, Kent, one of the things we've been poking at and they talked about in the key note this morning is how do you get more value out of your data? We talked about in an earlier segment with Vik. How do you look at your data? How are you sharing with other organizations or leveraging data internally better? >> Kent: Umm... >> Or are you? >> We've got quite a bit of data, and we're starting to go down the genomics road, and with that data we've got some good opportunities to be able to make some good advancements in healthcare and how different diseases are treated. So, we're kind of excited about that, and that's one of the areas my team's been really helping out, and being a trusted advisor to our genomics group. To get them set up with the things they need. >> You guys are talking on stage today about how backup and data protection is changing. It used to be kind of disk to disk to disk, and then sort of flash to disk to tape. Well, tape is still somewhere in there. You know, whatever, maybe it's the fourth level. You guys are talking flash to flash to cloud. We were talking off camera, Kent. You said "We're kind of looking at where to put "the right cloud workloads." Is backup one of those? >> Backup is possibly one of those. We talked a lot about how we off-site. Right now we still use a lot of tape. One of our key things that we think about when we're thinking about cloud and like off-siting stuff so we want to make sure we put it somewhere that, if we have a disaster, we can spin it up in that place. We're not trying to bring it back and bring it somewhere that is impossible during a disaster. So, we want to put it somewhere, and we want to be able to use it there and not just have it sit there and say "Yeah, we've got data protection. "It's right there, but we can't use it." >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. Can't recover. But, I mean, tape is still pretty prevalent in healthcare, right? It's a compliance issue,right? >> Vik: Very much so. >> I mean, your auditors aren't going to let you just throw away tape, right? >> Vik: Yes and no. I think it's just more of the "It's worked for so many years." Now, the problem that we run into is with the things, and we touched a little bit on this in the last segment. We talked about security, right? And sort of, in terms of insurance and protection against any of these threats that are malware et cetera, that are coming up, is getting more and more important for folks like Kent to prove to the business that "Hey, we're not only backing this data up "but we're restoring it. "We can restore it, and it's good." And we know how long this takes. So, all your iTell stuff comes into play. You have your SLO's. It's all back on. Try doing that with tape. Try doing that with tape that's been archived off-site. >> Dave: No, you can't. (laughing) >> And so this is why healthcare's actually moving in the direction of saying "You know what, let's just forget about that. "Let's just try to find different, better, faster "cheaper media if we can actually apply all of "the principals from today to do that." >> So you might still have tape, but you just never use it. Or you pray you never use it, just to have it there just in case. It's like that fire extinguisher in your barn that you don't know if it works or not but you have it there. >> Vik: It's there. It's good. It looks good, right? (laughing) >> Okay, and so, if you think about the experience that you've had with Pure. I told you I was going to put you on the spot, so are there things that you would do differently if you had to do it over again? Advice for your peers? Things that are on Pure's to-do list that you'd like them to do that'd make your life easier? >> I mean, yeah there's things that are on their to-do list. I mean, and I think they're announcing some of those today so that's probably pretty good. We want to do more with replication. Obviously, as a data protection, you need that. We'd like the price point of the M's to go down a little bit because there's kind of this misnomer about tier one storage and "Do I put my dev on tier one." Well, there's huge opportunities with cloning and things like that, and some of the partners that Pure has that we can actually bring up dev environments and not use as much storage as what we're using today. >> So that's a data sharing capability that you can give access to current data to your devs and not have to spin up multiple copies and separate infrastructure. And the use case that we talked about before was an enterprise data warehouse, right that you were trying to speed up. How about this, you heard from Scott Dietzen this morning the big push on analytics. Is that something, certainly your industry is pushing it. Is your organization there yet? Have you dipped your toe into the big data lake yet? >> Yeah. We've been doing analytics for a long time in one way or another. It's just, we're just getting more and more pressured to have the data available so they can continue to do that. >> Dave: Are you throwing Pure at that problem or is that... >> We hope to. Over time. We keep adding to our environment. >> Alright, Vik, we'll give you the last word. >> Pure and healthcare. What's the bumper sticker? >> Yeah, before you give me the last word I mean I think Kent's underselling what Intermountain's been doing in terms of analytics >> Yeah, add some color to it. >> over time, right? So, basically, they have been one of the pioneers in terms of really understanding drawing value from data. >> Really? >> Yes. It's been over time. It's been very much so of "I have this old data. I want to go run analytics on it. "Then I want to do some BI on it." And now we're getting to the real-time near real-time insight on data that really matters. And for that, we're hopeful that we're going to have an opportunity to actually participate and help build out those sorts of frameworks. And Intermountain's one of the organizations that's lead the way. A lot of the other organizations sort of following in the same footsteps. And, you know, right at the end, all I have to say is all of the benefits that we've talked about and we've talked about... We talked about across verticals and just horizontally in general that the Evergreen model brings to bare from Pure. I think they're really heightened, in terms of healthcare. So we talked about uptime. We talked about six ninths of uptime across our arrays And we're counting planned maintenance as part of your runtime. We're not saying exclude those, right? Very important. No data migrations. Super important. >> Dave: Downtime is downtime. >> Downtime is downtime. Exactly, thank you. Data migrations are super risky. Not only are they expensive, but they're risky. If you talk to any CMIO or CNIO and you say "Hey, how do you feel about your data being "picked up from here, put over there." See their reaction. >> Dave: It hurts. >> And they're expensive. And then the simplicity aspect of it. The simplicity is sort of at the function of the heart of everything. Its power is through simplicity, really is what it is. Giving him and his team and his organization time back to be able to go back and say to the business "How can we make your life better? "How can we make patient care better, "and how can we improve on resources?" >> Okay, good. Actually, Kent, we're going to give you the last word. Pure Accelerate 2017. Good event. What are you learning? Anything exciting? >> Kent: It's been a great event so far. Love the announcements. I just love being in this type of environment, because there's such a vibe here of wanting to help people do things and it's really great to be in a place like this. >> Dave: Yeah, it's fun too. We've got Snoop and... Snoop with the multi-cloud. That's an inside joke everyone. >> Vik: Multi-cloud. Are you sticking around? Are you sticking around for that tomorrow? >> Yeah, I'll be around. (laughing) Alright, good , we'll leave it there. Thanks you guys. We really appreciate you coming on. Okay, keep right there. This is theCube. We're live from Pure Accelerate 2017 in San Francisco. We'll be right back. (techno music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas it's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017 here in Austin, Texas. Getting towards the end of our two days of coverage. Really been geeking out on a lot of the technology here, and I was happy to be able to pull in two guys I know, I've had them on the Cube before, to really go in into how this who container wave is impacting their business, to go into the technology some. So I want to welcome back to the program, first you know John White. He's the Vice President of Product Strategy with Expedient and who I'm happy to see not wearing his football jersey. John, thanks for joining me again. >> (laughs) Good to see you. >> And Joep Piscaer, who is the CTO of OGD. I had the pleasure of interviewing Joep over in Europe last year at a show, so, you know, welcome over to Austin. I think Vienna and Austin, woe meet coma at both of those places. >> Oh yeah. >> So yeah, it seems every time we get together there's a lot of that going around. >> There's always a meet excuse, right? >> Right, so maybe start with you, have you been to DockerCon before? What's your experience been here at the show so far? >> Yeah, so this is my second DockerCon. I've been here last year as well, in Seattle. And I'm kind of liking the vibe this time round. So last year it was really, you know, all about developers. I'm kind of liking it, more about the enterprise right now. You know, as an enterprise guy, work for an MSP, so you know, we deal with a lot of enterprises. And it's good to see that Docker is, you know, giving the enterprise a lot of thought and a lot of attention because, you know, that was one area where they were lacking last year. >> So John, you know, you look at a lot of the ecosystem, you're also a service provider. What's your take so far? >> Yeah, so this is the first time for me at DockerCon. I go to a lot of conferences, so I read the room a little bit differently, I guess, than most. It's been interesting for me. These two days have been jam-packed. I've been soaking up a lot of new knowledge and new vendors, new potential partners for us to look into. But I'll agree, I think a lot of the focus on the enterprise, figuring out maybe how this is relevant to them and the future is actually a really great way to go and I hope to see more of that. Looking for those use cases right now is a little bit hard, especially when you have people like Visa that have been working on this for, you know, a few years now and only six months into production. We're just so very, very early in this technology that I think we're still walking, maybe, probably still crawling even, through it. >> Yeah, before we go into the tech, let's talk about ecosystems. So it's a word that I heard over and over again in the keynotes. You know, John, I was talking with you at VN World at AWS Free Invent, as a service provider sometimes, it feels like body blows and head shots, going to some of these shows because how they're partnering with you, how do you see Docker? What kind of things do they build? How does that, you know, help or hurt your business? >> Yeah, so Docker is a company, we really haven't worked with them quite yet. The ecosystem, though, is interesting here. There's a lot of new faces here, a lot of faces that I've interacted with on the Virtualization Days, now kind of porting over to here, so, you know, I've already started to reach out to some of them to kind of get an understanding, like for instance, of risks on the network side, what they're doing, how they're actually interacting with Docker. And think that's going to be really important because I think that's going to be one of my bigger challenges in the future, is how I actually network all this stuff together. You know, I can see us definitely starting to work closer with Docker, with Docker Data Center. I think customers are going to demand something like that. And they're not going to want to host it inside of their data centers. They're going to want to host it in probably a third party service provider. >> Yeah, I'm sure both of you were looking at, I think it was the Visa case study, we talked about utilization of what they had and I thought of you guys, cause it was like, oh, wait, big surprise, my utilization is really low because wait, why am I doing this in house when I should be going to somebody to handle that. Your thoughts on the ecosystem, you know, we talked at the Nucanic Show, you know, when you look at technology partners, you know, how does Docker and their ecosystem fit in to your thoughts? >> So it's like a whole new ecosystem to get into, right? So it's kind of discovering from ground zero again, what's the ecosystem look like? Who's doing what, who's developing what kind of new trends? So it's good to be there early, just to get a good feel about the ecosystem, get to know the people and be able to kind of develop a strategy around Docker, because it is early days, right? So it's way too early to go in to a customer and say we have a complete package for you. That's just not going to happen between now and like six months. So the issue really is how you get to a point with the customer where you can jointly develop a strategy to get Docker into your service profile. And going to events like DockerCon really helps to actually kind of achieve that goal. >> So you guys are always in an interesting space, you know, you're consuming some of the technologies from the vendor, you've got your customers, you know, putting demands on you, so you know, CTO sets strategy, why not dig in for us a little bit as to what your seeing, what's good, what's bad, you know. There's networking, there's storage, there's security, you know. Maybe John, start with you. I don't know if networking would be the one to start, but I'll let you choose. >> Yeah I think we're going to run, I mean, we're an infrastructure company. We've been running virtual infrastructure since 2007. We know it, we understand it. And you start to understand where the pitfalls are. This is going to change it. I mean, the bin packing problem is going to change significantly over the next few years. Some of the people, I went to their use case session, they're saying they're seeing 70% reduction in resources. Now, they're not saying 70% reduction in resources, you know, just because they made things smaller. They just packed them tighter into a smaller group of boxes. That's going to be interesting. And you know, discovering how we can actually provide that at the true infrastructure layer for our customers is going to be a really big challenge for us. And it's going to revolve around us having pretty strong partner relationships since we don't do the professional services to kind of figure out how to transform your application. We're going to need somebody to help us there. We're going to handle the infrastructure underneath. >> Maybe explain that a little more. Like you know, if I'm saying well, if I'm Amazon and I can just do that, they've got kind of infinite resources there and therefore as a customer I don't need to worry about that, you know. What do you have to worry about? And should your customers care or will you make that transparent to them? >> Let's think about, you know, we went to virtualization. We had P to V converters, right? We all used them, we all tested them. We said okay, this physical server now can run as a virtual server, that works. You really don't have, even though they announce something where you can take a VMDK to an image, Docker image, you really don't have a clean way to do that unless you think that building a big monolithic container is going to save you time and money. Maybe it will. But there's going to be some sort of application transformation that you have to do to be really successful inside of this new platform in the future. And that's something where I think you're going to have to have partners really ingrained to help build the cultural, help build the bridges to the operational teams, help to show the value to the executive team and why you're going to save money, why you're going to do something more secure, you know, how it's going to benefit you in the future. And those are just pretty big challenges that are out there in front of us. >> Joep? >> Yeah so that's the major issue, right? So from our perspective, we use ISVs for the software we deploy for customers, you know, a lot. I'd probably say like 90% of the applications we deploy, we didn't develop or the customer didn't develop in house. It's just all, you know, standardized V stuff. And having a networks of ISVs around you to help you transition from virtual machines into some kind of container format, to address the bin packing problem, that's going to be, that's going to be the biggest challenge to solve, right? It's not just packing up an application and moving it into a container. It's actually transforming it from whatever it is now into something more efficient, more scalable, more resilient. And that's you know really the issue we're trying to tackle, as far as looking at the ecosystem, looking at how to build our practice around it. It's not just infrastructure anymore. It is really all about the application now. So you have to develop a whole new set of skills. You have to develop new people around you. You have to develop new services. And that's interesting because it does have real advantages for the customers, but it's going to take a while to have that mature to a level the customers can actually pull it off the shelf and implement it in their own companies. >> One thing I think on the infrastructure side that I just was in Visa's use case, they were talking about how they're doing it on bare metal. That's different for us. We've been running virtualization for so long, now to say to the engineers, hey look, we're actually just going to run a Linux operating system, or even a Microsoft operating system now on bare metal, and we're going to run containers and get rid of that hypervisor. That's going to be a pretty unique conversation to have. We've already created the monitoring tools and unit performance tools, looking all at the VM. Now we might go back to just running servers again. It'll be a new challenge. >> Yeah really interesting. So there was a lot of focus in the keynote about how they've been maturing security. Want to get your take on that. You know, two years ago it was like oh wait, that's one of the biggest barriers to putting things in production. It feels at a high level like we've made some good progress. Is security still an issue? Are you comfortable with where we are? Maybe anything that still needs to be done? >> You want to go first? >> Sure. (laughing) >> This is a can of worms. >> Yeah so security is always, you know, it's always a can of worms. But you know, my take on it, it doesn't actually matter if it runs in a container or VM. Like 90% of the threads come from outside the compute right? So it's going to come off the network, off the internet, off the users. So really from a security perspective, I'm kind of ambiguous which way to go. But again, the ecosystem story comes back into play, right? Is the ecosystem mature enough to actually deliver security products for containers? The VMware ecosystem was completely mature in that sense. It can just pick off, you know, 20 products and basically do that same thing. And for Docker, that's going to be, you know, a challenge to say the least, to get up to a point where you can pick whatever you actually need. And it's going to be a discovery and it's going to be a little while before we get there. >> Yeah, so I have to read through your tweets to find the answer, John? >> No, no, I'll give you, I think well, security's a mess kind of in general but it's, I think some of the things that they're doing you know, early on, that before there's any critical mass adoption yet, making sure encrypted traffic and handling TLS certificates in an easy fashion, that's great. I was impressed with the notary function, where it can go and look at the image and know if there's any vulnerabilities, and go and identify the problems. It really helps the developers kind of understand the operational asks that people actually have to make sure, okay look, you're going to roll out this new image, this new code? Let's make sure it's secure to get started, at least. We all know it's going to kind of, maybe fall out of the norm once it actually gets up and running operational and production. But let's make sure it's secure at least to boot the thing. >> What do you see containers, when does it have a significant impact on your business? Does it transform the way that you deliver your service? Will it change pricing? >> Yeah, I think it's going to. I mean, a few things that are going to happen. I mean, it's going to increase in scale, so you're going to have more to actually manage, which is going to be a new challenge. That's one side of it. But you're going to probably end up consuming more infrastructure in the long run. And that infrastructure is going to get commoditized even more than it already is right now. And you're going to have to make sure that that's down to the minimum dollars or the minimum cents that you need to provide that very small segment of actual storage or RAM or compute that you need. And that's going to really shift the business. And especially when you look at a lot of containers where you have some that may be run on a monthly basis, a lot of them are only going to be running maybe a few seconds, a few minutes. So you're going to have to have very granular tracking and understanding for that show back charge back to the CFO that you're actually running the services for so they know exactly what they can expect for the bill that month. That's really different than what we're doing today. >> You know will that be a challenge for you to continue to compete against the public clouds, where it seems that that's a more natural fit for some of the pricing and the models that they've built? >> I don't think so. I think this is something where you're even getting more high touch with the application. You know, data sovereignty, that was listed up there I think on Met Life's use case today. That's always going to be important. They're going to want to know where the data's living, why it's living there, how to audit, how to do compliance against it. That's always going to be really important, that'll make us be a little bit different than the public cloud. >> Alright, your business? >> So I agree, right. So the pricing is going to be something to kind of readjust. But I kind of see a lot of advantages in terms of security, the secure software supply chain. So I'm really liking that message. So instead of having a big unknown in terms of whatever is coming into your data center, you now can say with a certain degree of certainty that the application you are running is secure, it's been tested, it's been tested by the compliance team. And I think enterprises in the end are really looking at how to mitigate those security risks and having such a secure software supply chain is absolutely going to help in that respect. >> Alright, so what feedback would you give to the community, what more do you want to see developed, areas where you think we need to make some progress, you know? Joep, I'll start with you. >> So the biggest is monolithic applications. So a lot of enterprises still have legacy applications. >> Well, you've got Oracle in the Docker store now. >> Yeah, exactly. (laughs) But it's still a monolith, right? So addressing that problem one way or the other, but especially in terms of availability, recoverability, I think that's one major area where Docker needs to focus on in the coming months. >> Alright, so John, same question, with a little twist for you is what you'd like to see and anything that if you're talking to VM Ware, what they should be doing more in this space. >> Okay, yeah. I think, I want to see from Docker a lot more use cases. I want to see them start to build their user group and community a little bit more, a lot more sharing needs to occur. The use case session that they had, it was basically two days of use cases running, were great. A lot of those companies, I had a hard time relating to my customers, I mean, Visa, Met Life, they're huge. I really don't, our service, you know, small to medium into the large, but those, they don't have the same use cases. So continue to focus on, you know, how we can actually work on this together with these new customers. On the VMware side of it, VMware's in every data center in the world. And they have a story around VIC, they have a story around Photon. They need to continue to figure out how to build that bridge to, maybe that VM decay to container tool that they have. Work on it together, see what you can do together to take this on to the next level of understanding of really how we can actually transform these applications that were all built in Vms. >> Alright, well, John, Joep, really appreciate you guys coming through. You never hold back sharing your opinions on it. Look forward to reading, I'm sure you'll probably do write ups from the show, too. And we've actually got Visa on as our next guest here. You've probably given me a couple of questions to ask there too, when I go into it. But getting towards the end of Cube's coverage here at DockerCon 2017. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)