>> Hi, I'm Adrienne Davis, Customer Success Manager on the CFO-side of the house at Mirantis. With me today is Artem Andreev, Product Manager and expert, who's going to enlighten us today. >> Hello everyone. It's great to hear all of you listening to our discussion today. So my name is Artem Andreev. I'm a Product Manager for Mirantis OpenStack line of products. That includes the current product line that we have in the the next generation product line that we're about to launch quite soon. And actually this is going to be the topic of our presentation today. So the new product that we are very, very, very excited about, and that is going to be launched in a matter of several weeks, is called Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes. For those of you who have been in Mirantis quite a while already, Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes is essentially a reincarnation of our Miranti Cloud Platform version one, as we call it these days. So, and the theme has reincarnated into something more advanced, more robust, and altogether modern, that provides the same, if not more, value to our customers, but packaged in a different shape. And well, we're very excited about this new launch, and we would like to share this excitement with you Of course. As you might know, recently a few months ago, Mirantis acquired Docker Enterprise together with the advanced Kubernetes technology that Docker Enterprise provides. And we made this technology the piece and parcel of our product suite, and this naturally includes OpenStack Mirantis, OpenStack on Kubernetes as well, since this is a part of our product suite. And well, the Kubernetes technology in question, we call Docker Enterprise Container Cloud these days, I'm going to refer to this name a lot over the course of the presentation. So I would like to split today's discussions to several major parts. So for those of you who do not know what OpenStack is in general, a quick recap might be helpful to understand the value that it provides. I will discuss why someone still needs OpenStack in 2020. We will talk about what a modern OpenStack distribution is supposed to do to the expectation that is there. And of course, we will go into a bit of details of how exactly Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes works, how it helps to deploy and manage OpenStack clouds. >> So set the stage for me here. What's the base environment we were trying to get to? >> So what is OpenStack? One can think of OpenStack as a free and open source alternative to VMware, and it's a fair comparison. So OpenStack, just as VMware, operates primarily on Virtual Machines. So it gives you as a user, a clean and crispy interface to launch a virtual VM, to configure the virtual networking to plug this VM into it to configure and provision virtual storage, to attach to your VM, and do a lot of other things that actually a modern application requires to run. So the idea behind OpenStack is that you have a clean and crispy API exposed to you as a user, and alters little details and nuances of the physical infrastructure configuration provision that need to happen just for the virtual application to work are hidden, and spread across multiple components that comprise OpenStack per se. So as compared again, to a VMware, the functionality is pretty much similar, but actually OpenStack can do much more than just Vms, and it does that, at frankly speaking much less price, if we do the comparison. So what OpenStack has to offer. Naturally, the virtualization, networking, storage systems out there, it's just the basic entry level functionality. But of course, what comes with it is the identity and access management features, or practical user interface together with the CLI and command line tools to manage the cloud, orchestration functionality, to deploy your application in the form of templates, ability to manage bare metal machines, and of course, some nice and fancy extras like DNSaaS service, Metering, Secret Management, and Load Balancing. And frankly speaking, OpenStack can actually do even more, depending on the needs that you have. >> We hear so much about containers today. Do applications even need VMs anymore? Can't Kubernetes provide all these services? And even if IaaS is still needed, why would one bother with building their own private platform, if there's a wide choice of public solutions for virtualization, like Amazon web services, Microsoft Azure, and Google cloud platform? >> Well, that's a very fair question. And you're absolutely correct. So the whole trend (audio blurs) as the States. Everybody's talking about containers, everybody's doing containers, but to be realistic, yes, the market still needs VMs. There are certain use cases in the modern world. And actually these use cases are quite new, like 5G, where you require high performance in the networking for example. You might need high performance computing as well. So when this takes quite special hardware and configuration to be provided within your infrastructure, that is much more easily solved with the Vms, and not containers. Of course not to mention that, there are still legacy applications that you need to deal with, and that well, they have just switched from the server-based provision into VM-based provision, and they need to run somewhere. So they're not just ready for containers. And well, if we think about, okay, VMs are still needed, but why don't I just go to a public infrastructure as a service provider and run my workloads there? Now if you can do that, but well, you have to be prepared to pay a lot of money, once you start running your workloads at scale. So public IaaSes, they actually tend to hit your pockets heavily. And of course, if you're working in a highly regulated area, like enterprises cover (audio blurs) et cetera, so you have to comply with a lot of security regulations and data placement regulations. And well, public IaaSes, let's be frank, they're not good at providing you with this transparency. So you need to have full control over your whole stack, starting from the hardware to the very, very top. And this is why private infrastructure as a service is still a theme these days. And I believe that it's going to be a theme for at least five years more, if not more. >> So if private IaaSes are useful and demanded, why does Mirantis just stick to the OpenStack that we already have? Why did we decide to build a new product, rather than keep selling the current one? >> Well, to answer this question, first, we need to see what actually our customers believe more in infrastructure as a service platform should be able to provide. And we've compiled this list into like five criteria. Naturally, private IaaS needs to be reliable and robust, meaning that whatever happens on the underneath the API, that should not be impacting the business generated workloads, this is a must, or impacting them as little as possible, the platform needs to be secure and transparent, going back to the idea of working in the highly regulated areas. And this is again, a table stake to enter the enterprise market. The platform needs to be simple to deploy (audio blurs) 'cause well, you as an operator, you should not be thinking about the internals, but try to focus in on enabling your users with the best possible experience. Updates, updates are very important. So the platform needs to keep up with the latest software patches, bug fixes, and of course, features, and upgrading to a new version must not take weeks or months, and has as little impact on the running workloads as possible. And of course, to be able to run modern application, the platform needs to provide the comparable set of services, just as a public cloud so that you can move your application across your terms in the private or public cloud without having to change it severally, so-called the feature parity, it needs to be there. And if we look at the architecture of OpenStack, and we know OpenStack is powerful, it can do a lot. We've just discussed that, right? But the architecture of OpenStack is known to be complex. And well, tell me, how would you enable the robustness and robustness and reliability in this complex system? It's not easy, right? So, and actually this diagrams shelves, just like probably a third part of the modern update OpenStack cloud. So it's just a little illustration. It's not the whole picture. So imagine how hard it is to make a very solid platform out of this architecture. And well, naturally this also imposes some challenges to provide the transparency and security, 'cause well, the more complex the system is, the harder it is to manage, and well the harder it is to see what's on the inside, and well upgrades, yeah. One of the biggest challenges that we learned from our past previous history, well that many of our customers prefer to stay on the older version of OpenStack, just because, well, they were afraid of upgraded, cause they saw upgrades as time-consuming and risky and divorce. And well, instead of just switching to the latest and greatest software, they preferred reliability by sticking to the old stuff. Well, why? Well, 'cause potentially that meant implied certain impact on their workloads and well an upgrade required thorough planning and execution, just to be as as riskless as possible. And we are solving all of these challenges, of managing a system as complex as OpenStack is with Kubernetes. >> So how does Kubernetes solve these problems? >> Well, we look at OpenStack as a typical microservice architecture application, that is organized into multiple little moving parts, demons that are connected to each other and that talk to each other through the standard API. And altogether, that feels as very good feet to run on top of a Kubernetes cluster, because many of the modern applications, they fall exactly on the same pattern. >> How exactly did you put OpenStack on Kubernetes? >> Well, that's not easy. I'm going to be frank with you. And if you look at the architectural diagram, so this is a stack of Miranda's products represented with a focus of course, on the Mirantis OpenStack, as a central part. So what you see in the middle shelving pink, is Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes itself. And of course around that are supporting components that are needed to be there, to run OpenStack on Kubernetes successfully. So on the very bottom, there is hardware, networking, storage, computing, hardware that somebody needs to configure provision and manage, to be able to deploy the operating system on top of it. And this is just another layer of complexity that abstracts the Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes just from the under lake. So once we have operating system there, there needs to be a Kubernetes cluster, deployed and managed. And as I mentioned previously, we are using the capabilities that this Kuberenetes cluster provides to run OpenStack itself, the control plane that way, because everything in Mirantis OpenStack on Kuberentes is a container, or whatever you can think of. Of course naturally, it doesn't sound like an easy task to manage this multi-layered pie. And this is where Docker Enterprise Container Cloud comes into play, 'cause this is our single pane of glass into day one and day two operations for the hardware itself, for the operating system, and for Docker Enterprise Kubernetes. So it solves the need to have this underlay ready and prepared. And once the underlay is there, you go ahead, and deploy Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes, just as another Kubernetes application, application following the same practices and tools as you use with any other applications. So naturally of course, once you have OpenStack up and running, you can use it to create your own... To give your users ability to create their own private little Kubernetes clusters inside OpenStack projects. And this is one of the measure just cases for OpenStack these days, again, being an underlay for containers. So if you look at the operator experience, how does it look like for a human operator who is responsible for deployment the management of the cloud to deal with Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes? So first, you deploy Docker Enterprise Container Cloud, and you use the built-in capabilities that it provides to provision your physical infrastructure, that you discover the hardware nodes, you deploy operating system there, you do configuration of the network interfaces in storage devices there, and then you deploy Kubernetes cluster on top of that. This Kubernetes cluster is going to be dedicated to Mirantis OpenStack on Kuberenetes itself. So it's a special (indistinct) general purpose thing, that well is dedicated to OpenStack. And that means that inside of this cluster, there are a bunch of life cycle management modules, running as Kubernetes operators. So OpenStack itself has its own LCM module or operator. There is a dedicated operator for Ceph, cause Ceph is our major storage solution these days, that we integrate with. Naturally, there is a dedicated lifecycle management module for Stack Light. Stack Light is our operator, logging monitoring alerting solution for OpenStack on Kubernetes, that we bundle toegether with the whole product suite. So Kubernetes operators, directly through, it keeps the TL command or through the practical records that are provided by Docker Enterprise Container Cloud, as a part of it, to deploy the OpenStack staff and Stack Light clusters one by one, and connect them together. So instead of dealing with hundreds of YAML files, while it's five definitions, five specifications, that you're supposed to provide these days and that's safe. And although data management is performed through these APIs, just as the deployment as easily. >> All of this assumes that OpenStack has containers. Now, Mirantis was containerizing back long before Kubernetes even came along. Why did we think this would be important? >> That is true. Well, we've been containerizing OpenStack for quite a while already, it's not a new thing at all. However, is the way that we deploy OpenStack as a Kubernetes application that matters, 'cause Kubernetes solves a whole bunch of challenges that we have used to deal with, with MCP1, when deploying OpenStack on top of bare operating systems as packages. So, naturally Kubernetes provides us with... Allows us to achieve reliability through the self (audio blurs) auto-scaling mechanisms. So you define a bunch of policies that describe the behavior of OpenStack control plane. And Kubernetes follows these policies when things happen, and without actually any need for human interaction. So isolation of the dependencies or OpenStack services within Docker images is a good thing, 'cause previously we had to deal with packages and conflicts in between the versions of different libraries. So now we just ship everything together as a Docker image, and I think that early in updates is an advanced feature that Kubernetes provides natively. So updating OpenStack has never been as easy as with Kubernetes. Kubernetes also provides some fancy building blocks for network and like hold balancing, and of course, collegial tunnels, and service meshes. They're also quite helpful when dealing with such a complex application like OpenStack when things need to talk to each other and without any problem in the configuration. So Helm Reconciling is a place that also has a great deal of role. So it actually is our soul for Kubernetes. We're using Helm Bubbles, which are for opens, provide for OpenStack into upstream, as our low level layer of logic to deploy OpenStack app services and connect them to each other. And they'll naturally automatic scale-up of control plane. So adding in, YouNote is easy, you just add a new Kubernetes work up with a bunch of labels there and well, it handles the distribution of the necessary service automatically. Naturally, there are certain drawbacks. So there's fancy features come at a cost. Human operators, they need to understand Kubernetes and how it works. But this is also a good thing because everything is moving towards Kubernetes these days, so you would have to learn at some point anyway. So you can use this as a chance to bring yourself to the next level of knowledge. OpenStack is not 100% Cloud Native Application by itself. Unfortunately, there are certain components that are stateful like databases, or NOAA compute services, or open-the-switch demons, and that have to be dealt with very carefully when doing operates, updates, and all the whole deployment. So there's extra life cycle management logic build team that handles these components carefully for you. So, a bit of a complexity we had to have. And naturally, Kubernetes requires resources, and keeping the resources itself to run. So you need to have this resources available and dedicated to Kubernetes control plane, to be able to control your application, that is all OpenStack and stuff. So a bit of investment is required. >> Can anybody just containerize OpenStack services and get these benefits? >> Well, yes, the idea is not new, there's a bunch of OpStream open, sorry, community projects doing pretty much the same thing. So we are not inventing a rocket here, let's be fair. However, it's only the way that Kubernetes cooks OpenStack, gives you the robustness and reliability that enterprise and like big customers actually need. And we're doing a great deal of a job, ultimating all the possible day to work polls and all these caveats complexities of the OpenStack management inside our products. Okay, at this point, I believe we shall wrap this discussion a bit up. So let me conclude for you. So OpenStack is an opensource infrastructure as a service platform, that still has its niche in 2020th, and it's going to have it's niche for at least five years. OpenStack is a powerful but very complex tool. And the complexities of OpenStack and OpenStack life cycle management, are successfully solved by Mirantis, through the capabilities of Kubernetes distribution, that provides us with the old necessary primitives to run OpenStack, just as another containerized application these days.

>>Hi, everyone. My name is my uncle. My uncle Poor I worked with Geo reminds you in India. We call ourselves Geo Platforms. Now on. We've been recently in the news. You've raised a lot off funding from one of the largest, most of the largest tech companies in the world. And I'm here to talk about Geos Cloud Journey, Onda Mantis Partnership. I've titled it the story often, Underdog becoming the largest telecom company in India within four years, which is really special. And we're, of course, held by the cloud. So quick disclaimer. Right. The content shared here is only for informational purposes. Um, it's only for this event. And if you want to share it outside, especially on social media platforms, we need permission from Geo Platforms limited. Okay, quick intro about myself. I am a VP of engineering a geo. I lead the Cloud Services and Platforms team with NGO Andi. I mean the geo since the beginning, since it started, and I've seen our cloud footprint grow from a handful of their models to now eight large application data centers across three regions in India. And we'll talk about how we went here. All right, Let's give you an introduction on Geo, right? Giorgio is on how we became the largest telecom campaign, India within four years from 0 to 400 million subscribers. And I think there are There are a lot of events that defined Geo and that will give you an understanding off. How do you things and what you did to overcome massive problems in India. So the slide that I want to talkto is this one and, uh, I The headline I've given is, It's the Geo is the fastest growing tech company in the world, which is not a new understatement. It's eggs, actually, quite literally true, because very few companies in the world have grown from zero to 400 million subscribers within four years paying subscribers. And I consider Geo Geos growth in three phases, which I have shown on top. The first phase we'll talk about is how geo grew in the smartphone market in India, right? And what we did to, um to really disrupt the telecom space in India in that market. Then we'll talk about the feature phone phase in India and how Geo grew there in the future for market in India. and then we'll talk about what we're doing now, which we call the Geo Platforms phase. Right. So Geo is a default four g lt. Network. Right. So there's no to geo three g networks that Joe has, Um it's a state of the art four g lt voiceover lt Network and because it was designed fresh right without any two D and three G um, legacy technologies, there were also a lot of challenges Lawn geo when we were starting up. One of the main challenges waas that all the smart phones being sold in India NGOs launching right in 2000 and 16. They did not have the voice or lt chip set embedded in the smartphone because the chips it's far costlier to embed in smartphones and India is a very price and central market. So none of the manufacturers were embedding the four g will teach upset in the smartphones. But geos are on Lee a volte in network, right for the all the network. So we faced a massive problem where we said, Look there no smartphones that can support geo. So how will we grow Geo? So in order to solve that problem, we launched our own brand of smartphones called the Life um, smartphones. And those phones were really high value devices. So there were $50 and for $50 you get you You At that time, you got a four g B storage space. A nice big display for inch display. Dual cameras, Andi. Most importantly, they had volte chip sets embedded in them. Right? And that got us our initial customers the initial for the launch customers when we launched. But more importantly, what that enabled other oh, EMS. What that forced the audience to do is that they also had to launch similar smartphones competing smartphones with voltage upset embedded in the same price range. Right. So within a few months, 3 to 4 months, um, all the other way EMS, all the other smartphone manufacturers, the Samsung's the Micromax is Micromax in India, they all had volte smartphones out in the market, right? And I think that was one key step We took off, launching our own brand of smartphone life that helped us to overcome this problem that no smartphone had. We'll teach upsets in India and then in order. So when when we were launching there were about 13 telecom companies in India. It was a very crowded space on demand. In order to gain a foothold in that market, we really made a few decisions. Ah, phew. Key product announcement that really disrupted this entire industry. Right? So, um, Geo is a default for GLT network itself. All I p network Internet protocol in everything. All data. It's an all data network and everything from voice to data to Internet traffic. Everything goes over this. I'll goes over Internet protocol, and the cost to carry voice on our smartphone network is very low, right? The bandwidth voice consumes is very low in the entire Lt band. Right? So what we did Waas In order to gain a foothold in the market, we made voice completely free, right? He said you will not pay anything for boys and across India, we will not charge any roaming charges across India. Right? So we made voice free completely and we offer the lowest data rates in the world. We could do that because we had the largest capacity or to carry data in India off all the other telecom operators. And these data rates were unheard off in the world, right? So when we launched, we offered a $2 per month or $3 per month plan with unlimited data, you could consume 10 gigabytes of data all day if you wanted to, and some of our subscriber day. Right? So that's the first phase off the overgrowth and smartphones and that really disorders. We hit 100 million subscribers in 170 days, which was very, very fast. And then after the smartphone faith, we found that India still has 500 million feature phones. And in order to grow in that market, we launched our own phone, the geo phone, and we made it free. Right? So if you take if you took a geo subscription and you carried you stayed with us for three years, we would make this phone tree for your refund. The initial deposit that you paid for this phone and this phone had also had quite a few innovations tailored for the Indian market. It had all of our digital services for free, which I will talk about soon. And for example, you could plug in. You could use a cable right on RCR HDMI cable plug into the geo phone and you could watch TV on your big screen TV from the geophones. You didn't need a separate cable subscription toe watch TV, right? So that really helped us grow. And Geo Phone is now the largest selling feature phone in India on it. 100 million feature phones in India now. So now now we're in what I call the geo platforms phase. We're growing of a geo fiber fiber to the home fiber toe the office, um, space. And we've also launched our new commerce initiatives over e commerce initiatives and were steadily building platforms that other companies can leverage other companies can use in the Jeon o'clock. Right? So this is how a small startup not a small start, but a start of nonetheless least 400 million subscribers within four years the fastest growing tech company in the world. Next, Geo also helped a systemic change in India, and this is massive. A lot of startups are building on this India stack, as people call it, and I consider this India stack has made up off three things, and the acronym I use is jam. Trinity, right. So, um, in India, systemic change happened recently because the Indian government made bank accounts free for all one billion Indians. There were no service charges to store money in bank accounts. This is called the Jonathan. The J. GenDyn Bank accounts. The J out off the jam, then India is one of the few countries in the world toe have a digital biometric identity, which can be used to verify anyone online, which is huge. So you can simply go online and say, I am my ankle poor on duh. I verify that this is indeed me who's doing this transaction. This is the A in the jam and the last M stands for Mobil's, which which were held by Geo Mobile Internet in a plus. It is also it is. It also stands for something called the U. P I. The United Unified Payments Interface. This was launched by the Indian government, where you can carry digital transactions for free. You can transfer money from one person to the to another, essentially for free for no fee, right so I can transfer one group, even Indian rupee to my friend without paying any charges. That is huge, right? So you have a country now, which, with a with a billion people who are bank accounts, money in the bank, who you can verify online, right and who can pay online without any problems through their mobile connections held by G right. So suddenly our market, our Internet market, exploded from a few million users to now 506 106 100 million mobile Internet users. So that that I think, was a massive such a systemic change that happened in India. There are some really large hail, um, numbers for this India stack, right? In one month. There were 1.6 billion nuclear transactions in the last month, which is phenomenal. So next What is the impact of geo in India before you started, we were 155th in the world in terms off mobile in terms of broadband data consumption. Right. But after geo, India went from one 55th to the first in the world in terms of broadband data, largely consumed on mobile devices were a mobile first country, right? We have a habit off skipping technology generation, so we skip fixed line broadband and basically consuming Internet on our mobile phones. On average, Geo subscribers consumed 12 gigabytes of data per month, which is one of the highest rates in the world. So Geo has a huge role to play in making India the number one country in terms off broad banded consumption and geo responsible for quite a few industry first in the telecom space and in fact, in the India space, I would say so before Geo. To get a SIM card, you had to fill a form off the physical paper form. It used to go toe Ah, local distributor. And that local distributor is to check the farm that you feel incorrectly for your SIM card and then that used to go to the head office and everything took about 48 hours or so, um, to get your SIM card. And sometimes there were problems there also with a hard biometric authentication. We enable something, uh, India enable something called E K Y C Elektronik. Know your customer? We took a fingerprint scan at our point of Sale Reliance Digital stores, and within 15 minutes we could verify within a few minutes. Within a few seconds we could verify that person is indeed my hunk, right, buying the same car, Elektronik Lee on we activated the SIM card in 15 minutes. That was a massive deal for our growth. Initially right toe onboard 100 million customers. Within our and 70 days. We couldn't have done it without be K. I see that was a massive deal for us and that is huge for any company starting a business or start up in India. We also made voice free, no roaming charges and the lowest data rates in the world. Plus, we gave a full suite of cloud services for free toe all geo customers. For example, we give goTV essentially for free. We give GOTV it'll law for free, which people, when we have a launching, told us that no one would see no one would use because the Indians like watching TV in the living rooms, um, with the family on a big screen television. But when we actually launched, they found that GOTV is one off our most used app. It's like 70,000,080 million monthly active users, and now we've basically been changing culture in India where culture is on demand. You can watch TV on the goal and you can pause it and you can resume whenever you have some free time. So really changed culture in India, India on we help people liver, digital life online. Right, So that was massive. So >>I'm now I'd like to talk about our cloud >>journey on board Animal Minorities Partnership. We've been partners that since 2014 since the beginning. So Geo has been using open stack since 2014 when we started with 14 note luster. I'll be one production environment One right? And that was I call it the first wave off our cloud where we're just understanding open stack, understanding the capabilities, understanding what it could do. Now we're in our second wave. Where were about 4000 bare metal servers in our open stack cloud multiple regions, Um, on that around 100,000 CPU cores, right. So it's a which is one of the bigger clouds in the world, I would say on almost all teams, with Ngor leveraging the cloud and soon I think we're going to hit about 10,000 Bama tools in our cloud, which is massive and just to give you a scale off our network, our in French, our data center footprint. Our network introduction is about 30 network data centers that carry just network traffic across there are there across India and we're about eight application data centers across three regions. Data Center is like a five story building filled with servers. So we're talking really significant scale in India. And we had to do this because when we were launching, there are the government regulation and try it. They've gotten regulatory authority of India, mandates that any telecom company they have to store customer data inside India and none of the other cloud providers were big enough to host our clothes. Right. So we we made all this intellectual for ourselves, and we're still growing next. I love to show you how we grown with together with Moran says we started in 2014 with the fuel deployment pipelines, right? And then we went on to the NK deployment. Pipelines are cloud started growing. We started understanding the clouds and we picked up M C p, which has really been a game changer for us in automation, right on DNA. Now we are in the latest release, ofem CPM CPI $2019 to on open stack queens, which on we've just upgraded all of our clouds or the last few months. Couple of months, 2 to 3 months. So we've done about nine production clouds and there are about 50 internal, um, teams consuming cloud. We call as our tenants, right. We have open stack clouds and we have communities clusters running on top of open stack. There are several production grade will close that run on this cloud. The Geo phone, for example, runs on our cloud private cloud Geo Cloud, which is a backup service like Google Drive and collaboration service. It runs out of a cloud. Geo adds G o g S t, which is a tax filing system for small and medium enterprises, our retail post service. There are all these production services running on our private clouds. We're also empaneled with the government off India to provide cloud services to the government to any State Department that needs cloud services. So we were empaneled by Maiti right in their ego initiative. And our clouds are also Easter. 20,000 certified 20,000 Colin one certified for software processes on 27,001 and said 27,017 slash 18 certified for security processes. Our clouds are also P our data centers Alsop a 942 be certified. So significant effort and investment have gone toe These data centers next. So this is where I think we've really valued the partnership with Morantes. Morantes has has trained us on using the concepts of get offs and in fries cold, right, an automated deployments and the tool change that come with the M C P Morantes product. Right? So, um, one of the key things that has happened from a couple of years ago to today is that the deployment time to deploy a new 100 north production cloud has decreased for us from about 55 days to do it in 2015 to now, we're down to about five days to deploy a cloud after the bear metals a racked and stacked. And the network is also the physical network is also configured, right? So after that, our automated pipelines can deploy 100 0 clock in five days flight, which is a massive deal for someone for a company that there's adding bear metals to their infrastructure so fast, right? It helps us utilize our investment, our assets really well. By the time it takes to deploy a cloud control plane for us is about 19 hours. It takes us two hours to deploy a compu track and it takes us three hours to deploy a storage rack. Right? And we really leverage the re class model off M C. P. We've configured re class model to suit almost every type of cloud that we have, right, and we've kept it fairly generous. It can be, um, Taylor to deploy any type of cloud, any type of story, nor any type of compute north. Andi. It just helps us automate our deployments by putting every configuration everything that we have in to get into using infra introduction at school, right plus M. C. P also comes with pipelines that help us run automated tests, automated validation pipelines on our cloud. We also have tempest pipelines running every few hours every three hours. If I recall correctly which run integration test on our clouds to make sure the clouds are running properly right, that that is also automated. The re class model and the pipelines helpers automate day to operations and changes as well. There are very few seventh now, compared toa a few years ago. It very rare. It's actually the exception and that may be because off mainly some user letter as opposed to a cloud problem. We also have contributed auto healing, Prometheus and Manager, and we integrate parameters and manager with our even driven automation framework. Currently, we're using Stack Storm, but you could use anyone or any event driven automation framework out there so that it indicates really well. So it helps us step away from constantly monitoring our cloud control control planes and clothes. So this has been very fruitful for us and it has actually apps killed our engineers also to use these best in class practices like get off like in France cord. So just to give you a flavor on what stacks our internal teams are running on these clouds, Um, we have a multi data center open stack cloud, and on >>top of that, >>teams use automation tools like terra form to create the environments. They also create their own Cuba these clusters and you'll see you'll see in the next slide also that we have our own community that the service platform that we built on top of open stack to give developers development teams NGO um, easy to create an easy to destroy Cuban. It is environment and sometimes leverage the Murano application catalog to deploy using heats templates to deploy their own stacks. Geo is largely a micro services driven, Um um company. So all of our applications are micro services, multiple micro services talking to each other, and the leverage develops. Two sets, like danceable Prometheus, Stack stone from for Otto Healing and driven, not commission. Big Data's tax are already there Kafka, Patches, Park Cassandra and other other tools as well. We're also now using service meshes. Almost everything now uses service mesh, sometimes use link. Erred sometimes are experimenting. This is Theo. So So this is where we are and we have multiple clients with NGO, so our products and services are available on Android IOS, our own Geo phone, Windows Macs, Web, Mobile Web based off them. So any client you can use our services and there's no lock in. It's always often with geo, so our sources have to be really good to compete in the open Internet. And last but not least, I think I love toe talk to you about our container journey. So a couple of years ago, almost every team started experimenting with containers and communities and they were demand for as a platform team. They were demanding community that the service from us a manage service. Right? So we built for us, it was much more comfortable, much more easier toe build on top of open stack with cloud FBI s as opposed to doing this on bare metal. So we built a fully managed community that a service which was, ah, self service portal, where you could click a button and get a community cluster deployed in your own tenant on Do the >>things that we did are quite interesting. We also handle some geo specific use cases. So we have because it was a >>manage service. We deployed the city notes in our own management tenant, right? We didn't give access to the customer to the city. Notes. We deployed the master control plane notes in the tenant's tenant and our customers tenant, but we didn't give them access to the Masters. We didn't give them the ssh key the workers that the our customers had full access to. And because people in Genova learning and experimenting, we gave them full admin rights to communities customers as well. So that way that really helped on board communities with NGO. And now we have, like 15 different teams running multiple communities clusters on top, off our open stack clouds. We even handle the fact that there are non profiting. I people separate non profiting I peoples and separate production 49 p pools NGO. So you could create these clusters in whatever environment that non prod environment with more open access or a prod environment with more limited access. So we had to handle these geo specific cases as well in this communities as a service. So on the whole, I think open stack because of the isolation it provides. I think it made a lot of sense for us to do communities our service on top off open stack. We even did it on bare metal, but that not many people use the Cuban, indeed a service environmental, because it is just so much easier to work with. Cloud FBI STO provision much of machines and covering these clusters. That's it from me. I think I've said a mouthful, and now I love for you toe. I'd love to have your questions. If you want to reach out to me. My email is mine dot capulet r l dot com. I'm also you can also message me on Twitter at my uncouple. So thank you. And it was a pleasure talking to you, Andre. Let let me hear your questions.

a theme that I heard here that definitely resonated is we have complexity we need to deal with interoperability everybody has a lot of things and that's the future work hybrid multi cloud world that you have and that's really the state of open source it's not a thing if there's lots of things you take the pieces you need because you know when we think about what we are as a community I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure and it's really about solving problems and if you want to if you're as open community collaboration you want to solve problems you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems and sometimes maybe that build off just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and since of a stack is a big application with a lot of moving parts kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful - or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for you know for the users within your organization or you could invent a public cloud and providing these services for other people and then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting kubernetes applications technology goes on the edge we still need to account for as they're excited by the economics of that edge pay a big big part of their of that game right so there is scale it's it's in the thousands of the forms of presence and the hundreds of thousands of positive presence or four different buildings where you can put a like an edge clamp right also the use case are still being defined but its scale on a different organ book

(bright music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris. Welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our beautiful studios here in Palo Alto, California. As we do with every CUBE Conversation, we come up with a great topic and we find someone who really understands it so they can talk about it. We capture them for you so you can learn something about some of the new trends and changes in the industry, and we're doing that today too. The topic that we're talking about is, how do you do a better job of mapping the costs that are being generated by the cloud. Well that information's coming out of cloud suppliers related to what you're using with the actual business activities that generate the differential capabilities that customers are looking for. That's a tough, tough challenge, and to understand that better, we're talking with J.R. Storment, who's a co-founder of Cloudability. J.R, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thanks Peter, good to be here. >> So let's talk about... First, who are you? >> Yeah, so I'm co-founder of Cloudability, and Cloudability is focused around improving the unit economics of cloud spend, so our customers tend to be those who are spending large amount in AWS or Azure or GCP. And we take their billing data, their utilization data, various meta data about their business and do machine learning and data science on top of it to help them get better visibility into where that spend is going, how their using it, but more importantly to give them some controls around how they want to optimize. And optimize doesn't necessarily mean save money in a cloud world. Cause most companies who are moving into cloud very heavily are doing that for the innovation, for the speed, so they can deliver better data faster. But it's really about fine-tuning the conversation. Say, "Okay, here we want to save money. "Here we want to move faster. "Here we want to focus on quality." And really providing a way for the various groups that aren't normally talking, the finance teams with the engineering teams with the procurement teams, all these groups to come together, and be able to take executive input to say, "Okay, how do we want to operate? "And how do we want to improve those unit economics as we go?" >> Well, I want to start with just a quick comment on this notion of unit economics. Cause when people historically hear the notion of unit economics, they think of increasing scale so the average cost per unit goes down. But I think you're talking about more than that, right? Aren't you really also talking about a mapping of what spend is generating to the business activities that actually generate value and ensuring that you get the differential or the optimized unit economics or unit cost? >> Yeah, so the mapping is actually really interestingly challenging in cloud. It's hard enough in traditional IT. If you look at somebody like AWS, they have 200,000 SKUs, different products you can buy. And they now bill at a second level resolution. So what this means is you've got all these engineers out there using cloud in a very good way to move quickly, innovate, include more features. And they kind of have an unlimited credit card that they can go spend on as quickly as they need. And they never see the statements. They never see the bills. And the other side, you've got finance teams, procurement teams who've sort of lost control of traditionally the power of the PO that they have to rein that in. And they're struggling just to understand what is the spend. And then to the mapping question, how do I allocate these hundreds of millions of charges that I have this month into cost centers and business units, and getting that sorted in a world where engineers are focused on moving fast. They're not tagging things based on cost center typically. So once you get that sort of mapping aspect sorted to the next point you brought is is then bring in the business value. So how do we start to relate that back. There's a concept a lot of you know, IT has been a cost center, and now it's actual driver of value in a world where businesses are increasingly delivering their value through software. So we need to start tying the spending, mapping of the business and then tying that to the value delivered. A great example of this, I was sitting last week with one of the largest cloud spenders in the world. And they're up in, you know, nine figures with their primary vendor. And in the conversation with the executives, we realized that nobody was looking at both side of that equation. You had the finance people who were saying, "Hey, we're tracking the costs, "and we're figuring out what's happening there." And then you have the revenue generators looking at the money coming in, you know the cloud people with that. But there wasn't this centralized view to say, "Alright, we want to have a conversation about what value are we getting out of this spend." And the question that always comes up with that is are we spending the right amount? I don't know. >> Let me build on that, because IT is historically, and this is one of the things that we've been doing over the last few years, IT has historically done things at a project level. Alright, so we had waterfall development. We tried to change that with Agile. We had buy the hardware upfront and then deploy the application on it, cloud changes that. So this project orientation has led to a set of decisions about finance at the moment that the business decides to do it. We've changed the practices that we use at a development level. We've changed the practices that we use at an asset level. Is it now time to change the practices that we use at a finance level? Is that really kind of what's going on here? >> It is, the project analogy is good. Because what we're seeing is they're shifting from a project basis to a product basis, and products that deliver value. Increasingly if you think about the change that's happened with DevOps in the scene and cloud, companies are delivering more of their value through software, and they're not just using IT for internal projects, right. It's actually the driver of business. It's how we interact with airlines and banks and all these things. So that's the shift to say, okay, now we gotten good at DevOps moving fast, and we've gotten good at deploying and building better data stores. Now we need to bring in this new discipline. And the discipline is what the market is calling FinOps, which essentially combining financial operations. You're essentially combining-- >> Applied to a technology world. >> Applied specifically to a cloud world. And it can only really happen in cloud. It can't happen in data centers. Because data centers have fixed spending, right? You have to wait to get resources. Once you make the investment, it's a sum cost. There's months of lead time. Cloud introduced the removal of constraints, which means you can get whatever you want as quickly as you want. And DevOps meant it's all automated. So instead of your collection of 60 servers, you've got thousands that are coming up and down all the time. So what you now have to do is bring in all these groups. Engineers have to think about cost as a new efficiency metric. They have to think about the impact on their business that this code, this confirmation template they just wrote is going to have. And the finance teams have to shift from this mode of "I'm going to report retroactively at a quarterly granularity, "60 days after it happened and block investment" to be "I'm going to partner with these teams. "Report in a real-time fashion. "Give them the visibility and help forecast. "Actually bring them together and make better business decisions about the cloud spend." >> So cloud has allowed development to alter practically, I mean Agile has been around for a long time, pre-dates the cloud, but it became practical and almost demanded as a consequence of what you could do with cloud. So cloud changed development through Agile. It changed infrastructure management through DevOps. Where now you're deploying software infrastructure as code. And what you're saying is the third leg of that stool, cloud is now changing how you do financial management of technology, financial management of IT. And we're calling that FinOps. >> You can't really have FinOps without cloud or without DevOps, and if you have the two together, you ultimately need this new set of, it's a new operating model. The reason this has sort of come to a head of late is if you look at going to the Amazon re:Invent conferences a few years back, it was like well how much is cloud going to be a thing. And okay, cloud's not going to be a thing. When's it going to happen? Now it's about the how and how do we do this better. Cloud is hitting sort of material spend levels now at big organizations. You always see the cloud projections where it's going, I think it's now 360 billion in the next few years. And we're seeing CFOs at public companies look to say, "Okay, it's not my biggest line item yet. "But it's the most variable and fastest growing "cogs expense, so it's actually "starting to affect our margins. "We need a new set of processes to actually manage this." So one of the things that's coming to market is this new group called the FinOps Foundation, which is a non-profit trade association that initially has a few dozen of some of the largest cloud spenders in the world. There's the Spotifys, the Laciens, the Nationwides, the Autodesks. And they've all come together as a set of best practice practitioners to start to clarify this into something that can be scaled out in organizations. So that group is going to be putting out a user conference around this area. There's a new O'Reilly book that's coming out the end of the year that's going to be sort of the treatise and all this stuff pulled together. Because what we found and you know me, as in Cloudability in the last eight years, we bring in technology and platform to show the recommendations of visibility and how to do this, but the real challenge companies run into is they don't have the internal expertise. Their finance teams understand what they need to. The engineers don't. And so they came to us last year saying, "Can you help figure out the processes? "Can you educate us?" And that's really where this FinOps Foundation has grown out of, of bringing together those people to define those processes. >> So the impact of cloud on each of these different groups, the development group, on the infrastructure team, and now on the finance team. The developer groups, some of them resisted it. But generally speaking, it's gone okay. And eventually tooling from a variety of different players came along that made it easy to enact best practices in software development through an Agile mechanism. In the last few years after significant battles within infrastructure teams about whether or not they were going to use software as code. We've seen new products, new tooling that has facilitate the adoption of those practices. What kind of tooling are we going to see introduced that facilitates FinOps, so that finance teams, procurement teams move from a project orientation to a strategic management of a resource orientation? >> I mean I think the first is on the engineering side is seeing cost become a first class citizen of an efficiency metric that they need to look at. So you know in their build processes baked in the CICD, looking to see am I properly sizing my compute request for the workload that it needs. There's some research that just came out showing that, I think it's 80% of the market is not using the best discounting options that cloud providers offer. You hear these horror stories. Cloud's too expensive, we overspend. That's not actually a problem with the cloud provider. That's a problem with the enterprises not using the tools that offer the discounts, the reservances, the infrequent access. >> Caveat emptor. >> Exactly, so I think at the end of the day, the first step in this is getting those checks in place to say, "Are we using the things that help drive the right cost for our needs?" And on the other side of that, the finance teams really changing the way that they are interacting with the technology teams. Becoming partners, becoming advocates in this versus a passive, retroactive reporter down the line. And this enables these sort of micro-optimization discussions that can happen where data center world, we bought it at some cost, it's sitting there, cloud world, we can make decisions today that impact the business tomorrow. >> So let me make sure I got this. So I have a client who I was having a conversation with him. They told me that their Amazon, their AWS bill, is 87 gigabytes monthly. Not some 87 pages. That's 87 gigabytes. So we bring this 87 gigabytes in, and it's a story about what I consume out of Amazon. It's not a story of what my business utilizes to achieve its objectives. So we're now entering into a world where we're trying to introduce that financial visibility into how that spend can be mapped to what the business does. So the finance group can look at a common notion of truth. And the IT group can look at a common notion of truth. Application owners can looks at a common notion of truth. And that's what FinOps is providing. Have I got that right? >> Absolutely, and the 87 gigabytes example is the exact reason why it is FinOps, and not just cloud financial management. You can't have a person with a spreadsheet looking at data and trying to make decisions about it, right? It has to be automated. It's IT finances code. It's got to be baked into the processes. We've seen organizations that have hundreds of millions of individual charges hitting them in a consumption based manner. The other thing that's come in with the FinOps as a core tenet is we're now seeing a decentralization of accountability for that spend. So if you look at the big cloud spenders out there who are maybe spending tens or hundreds of millions a year, some of them have thousands of cloud environments. Gone is the day of we have a centralized group getting to say, "We're going to turn this off, turn this off." We want to give each of those teams the ability to see just their portion of that bill in the right mapped way, as you said, and to be able to take actions on the back of that. So that's changed in the you know, you run it, you maintain it, you understand what's shut down. What has sort of come back to the old centralized model is this notion, and this is where procurement's job has shifted to largely, of we do still want to centralize the rate reduction. So engineers, you go use less, right? Essentially, finance teams, procurement work together with the cloud vendors to get the best possible rates through reserved instances, can be deduced discounts, you know volume discounts, negotiated rates, whatever it is. And they become sort of strategic sourcing. To say you're going to use whatever you're going to use, and you're going to watch that to make sure you're using the right amount with target thresholds. We're going to make sure we get the best rate for it. And that's sort of the two sides of the coin. >> Well, very important, procurement has always been organized on episodic purchases, where the whole point is to bring the price point down. And now we're talking about a continuous service, where you are literally basing your business on capabilities provided by a third party. And that is a very, very, very different relationship. >> It's just in time purchasing. And it's a new supply-chain management process, where you have so many SKU options, and you are making these purchase decisions, sometimes thousands a day, and that impacts everything down the road. >> Excellent. J.R. Storment, co-founder of Cloudability, talking about FinOps and Cloudability's role in helping businesses map their cloud spend to their business activities for better, more optimal views of how they get what they need out of their cloud expenditures. J.R., thank you very much for being on the CUBE. >> Thanks, Peter. >> And once again, I'm Peter Burris. And thanks for listening to this CUBE Conversation. Until next time.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week John Troyer. And helping us to bring it on home we have Roman Alekseenkov who's the co-founder of Aptomi. Brand new start up, I feel we've got the exclusive here to help you know, we have some blog posts out there and the like, but help to introduce you to our community and some of the broader world. Thanks for joining us. >> Yep, my first time at theCUBE. >> Alright so Roman, give us a little bit about your background and you know, we need with any, you know, founder the why of your company. >> Okay so I guess let's start with a background. So I used to work for one of the cloud infrastructure startups called Mirantis. And I worked there for a very long time. And last year I decided to start something on my own. Right, so now I am one of the main guys and one of the core contributors to the project called Aptomi. So and, I don't know if it's relevant, but before Mirantis, I've been doing a lot of the programming competitions like Google Code Jam, ACMICPC and Top Coder. My team ended up winning ACMICPC world finals. So I have like a decent background in algorithms, computer science, data structures, and things like that. >> Yeah. >> So that's me. >> We always see people are always humble there. It's, we know Mike Dvorkin is on your team. >> He is. >> People in the networking world, you know, might have run across Mike, and so super smart people. Give us the you know, the problem statement that your company's looking to solve. >> Right, so... I think it's going to be not one sentence answer. It's going to be a slightly longer answer. So when we talk to a number of companies who are using Kubernetes and who are building apps on top of Kubernetes, we looked into CI space and the CD space. And we looked at the CI, and in the CI for the most part, most of the problems seem to be solved, right. Everything that starts from your source code and then Docker file, how you build your artifacts, how you test it, and how you publish the binary to the repo, all that part seems to be streamlined. You take Jenkins, you take Docker, you take all the tools. You write some Kubernetes key, so this part, packaging components, it's not a big deal. And what we saw is where all the people are struggling is actually in the CD space, right. Once you start putting multi-container complex applications out of those pieces once you start wiring those pieces together, maybe microservices, maybe not, but once you start wiring things together, once you start running them across multiple environments, multiple clusters, right, that's where the things become really, really difficult for people who just rely on the tool set that we have today. Right, and that's where we saw an opportunity to build this service abstraction which allow people to wire things together and run them and operate them in a controllable way across multiple clusters and multiple environments integrated obviously with the continuous delivery pipelines. >> So if people weren't using Aptomi, what would they be using now? Or what kind of, what kinds of tools and processes are they bringing together if they're not doing this? Are they doing everything by hand, or how do you compare it to some of the other tools? >> Right, so a lot of people, they use some homegrown frameworks right now on top of Kubernetes and Helm. Or maybe on top of Kubernetes and YAML files. Or maybe Kubernetes and JSON is also one of the ways to do this. But there are some drawbacks in, in the approaches, right? Because we think that you want to start reasoning about those as actually applications and services not as like as a bunch of YAMLs and containers right? And so once you start talking about this as services as well as rules around those services, right maybe I want to say like hey everything that goes in my production environment should be secure or I want all my services with label "X" deployed to the dev environment or to cluster US east right? I mean the things become easier for you, 'cause you don't have to deal with the YAML file. >> Kind of from the abstraction layer up to maybe up, say to in other part of IT you might say it's policy driven almost, it's declarative, intent driven; I want this to happen rather than writing this kind of crazy YAML. Actually one of the Kubernetes founders, I dunno recently on Twitter or somewhere I was reading was saying that YAML was never supposed to be written by humans, that was kind of a mistake we meant for it to be under the covers but here we are. >> Roman: Right, but you are exactly right. It's services as well as intent around the services. >> Stu: Roman, I want to get your thoughts on just the Kubernetes ecosystem itself, you know for years here at OpenStack it was "Oh wait there's a lot of different distributions", you know, moving between one or the other wasn't necessarily easy. Kubernetes seems like we're a little bit better, a little further along, might've learned from some of the issues that we've had here. There's, last I saw it was getting around 40 different options but you know the thing I also wonder about is Kubernetes tends to get baked into platforms so you've got people that will build their own, just take the code, but you know Red Hat has a platform, all the public clouds have a platform, then there's a number of startups there. What's that like from your standpoint kind of being in this ecosystem is it, and maybe give us a little comparison compared to what it would have been like in the OpenStack world? >> Roman: Sounds good, so for us we actually we don't really care on what Kubernetes we run because we run, we help people to deliver apps and services on top. But if you talk about Kubernetes itself, we don't actually last year we haven't seen a lot of issues with Kubernetes right because we run a cluster in our lab, it just works. JKE always doesn't let me down, we also run things on Azure so speaking about the Kubernetes infrastructure I think the state of Kubernetes right now it's pretty reliable. So we don't see a lot of issues with that. But you also mentioned the platform, right so Kubernetes is part of the platform and that's the interesting part because a couple of years ago everyone was talking about Pass. It's Pass, Pass, Pass, Pass everywhere. Now you see a lot of conversations about Pass because Pass is like a monolith platform, doesn't exist anymore because it basically gets decomposed into what people call I guess containers of service and the modular tool set. And container orchestration is one part, and there is like 15 or 16 different parts from ad definition, to orchestration, and CD pipelines and security components, right? And that's why you see so many products out there with overlapping functionality. >> I mean do you think that the concept of Pass is going away at this point? Will we continue to redefine what a Pass is? I think every few years maybe that's the pattern. >> My personal opinion is that the concept of Pass is gone. There's is no more Pass. The future is the modular stack and the modular tool set. >> Stu: Yeah, so absolutely the future is becoming more distributed. I'm curious your thoughts then on something like Serverless which tends to change that even a little bit more than what we've been looking at. >> Roman: Sure well Serverless is, I guess it's not for everyone. It also depends on the type of workload that you run. If you want to run something compute intensive I guess it's still going to be containers or even VMs but likely containers. But if you have some stateless front-end or API, something that you sometimes make a call to and have to do something and get a response back sure Serverless is great, and Serverless actually fits quite well into what Mike and are tying to do with Aptomi. >> John: Roman I also wanted to ask about dependency mapping and visualizing dependencies. Hybrid cloud has been a big theme this week. It's actually a big theme in enterprise and elsewhere. When that happens when you have separate components whether they are monolithic components that are talking to each other down to microservices, dependencies are huge at that, the application level dependencies, especially as you move to hybrid cloud because you might be moving some component away from the rest and you better know what's talking to the other components. Any thoughts on how that is developing as architecture, application architectures and what you guys are doing to help there? >> Roman: Yeah so there's basically two ways how you can approach this so one way is the traditional way where you just open up your Kubernetes to a bunch of developers and people just run their things in different namespaces. If you use that approach I think those dependencies between different components, what relies on what, who's talking to whom, they become non-obvious, it's really hard to discover them once you got things deployed. So we are taking a slightly different approach because we require a little bit more information upfront about dependencies between components so once you deploy things through Aptomi we kind of already know what exists on the clusters and why, and who owns the resources, and who asked for certain services to be deployed. So we do provide some contextual visibility into that. And what's really nice is we're trying to build this, or we are building this on top of the community standards, we are not reinventing the whole platform, or trying to invent a new language, it's basically build ontop of Kubernetes and Helm. It's just a simple declarative service based abstraction and it rules. >> Stu: Last thing I wanted to ask, Aptomi itself, you know what's the state of the project? Is it a 1.0, are you looking for contributors, where are you with customers, help round off the understanding of the company and project. >> Sounds good, so we are one year into the project. The project is completely open source, it's on Github. It has 4 contributors right now and close to 2,000 commits maybe a little bit more. 100 star, 100+ on Github, so we're getting some traction, in the open source. Speaking about the readiness I think it's we're not 1.0 yet but we're getting close to 1.0. And the core of it, and the whole project is completely open source right, it's 100% Apache 2.0, but what we also do we also offer a hosted version with support. Right so when people come and they can just get the complete CD system with the service based layer and abstraction through our hosted version with support and that's what we are charging money for and revenue wise we do have paying customers, but it's only a year in so. Not a big amount but, there's going to be more. >> Stu: Alright well, Roman Alekseenkov really appreciate you sharing with us. Congratulations on the progress so far, seen an item I'd like working for us and for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman, we thank you for joining for 3 days of live wall-to-wall coverage of big final shout-out to the OpenStack Foundation and the supports of theCUBE for the whole crew here. Thank you for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano) >> Astronaught: I recommend you activate my bit-ray over.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada, It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018, here in Vancouver. Three days wall-to-wall coverage. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, Radhesh Balakrishnan, who is the general manager of OpenStack with Red Hat. Radhesh, great to see you. It's been a week since John talked to you, and always good to have you on at the show. >> Great to be on. Good to be here talking about OpenStack at OpenStack Summit. >> Yeah so, look, OpenStack is in the title of your job. I believe, did we have a birthday cake and a party celebrating a certain milestone? >> That is indeed true; so it's the fifth anniversary of that fact that we've had a product, Red Hat OpenStack Platform, on the market. And so, we've been doing a little bit of a look back at how far we have come in the last five years as well as looking ahead at, you know, how does the next three to five years shape as well. >> Yeah, Radhesh, I'm going to date myself and when I think back to, gosh it was 18 years ago, I was working with Linux, and there were kernels all over the place and things like that. And then, I worked for an enterprise storage company and was like, ugh, like keeping up with Chrome.org was a pain in the neck. There came out this thing called Red Hat Advanced Server that was like, oh wait, we can glom onto this, we can support this with our customers, and that eventually turned into RHEL, which, of course, kind of becomes the main standard for how to do Linux. I feel like we have a lot of similarities. >> Radhesh: Absolutely, absolutely. >> In how we did. RHOSP, I believe, is the acronym, so. >> That's exactly right, and we like to have long names. >> Which are very descriptive, but Red Hat OpenStack Platform, fundamentally, to your point brings the same valid proposition that RHEL brought to Linux, to OpenStack, with the twist that, it's not just curated OpenStack, but it's a co-engineered solution of Linux and Cavium and OpenStack. And along the way we learned that, look, it's not just OpenStack and the infrastructure solution. It's done in conjunction with the software-defined storage solution or it's done in conjunction with software-defined networking. Or, fast-forward all the way now, it's being done in conjunction with cloud-native applications running on top of it, right? But regardless, in five years we've been able to grow to address these different demands being placed at infrastructure level, and at the same time evolved to address new-use cases as well; Telco is an example of that. >> Radhesh, let's spend a couple of minutes, though, on the OpenStack Platform itself from Red Hat. Some of the things, guys, that you were bringing to market, I know we talked about, here at the show, fast-forward upgrades, for instance were, they were just introducing, and maybe some other things in the Queens release that you all are bringing forward and have engineered. >> Yeah, thanks for that question, very topical, in the sense that yesterday we launched OSP 13, which is the latest and greatest version based on Queens release. If you look at the innovation packed in that it fundamentally falls in three buckets. One is the bread part that you talked about, whereby, anybody who is standing on OSP 10, which was the prior, long-release lifecycle product, over to 13, how do you kind of get over there in a graceful manner is the first area that we have addressed. The second area is around security, because how do you make sure that OpenStack-based clouds are secure by default, from the day you roll out all the way to until you retire it, right? I don't know if there's going to be a retirement, but that's the intent of all the security enablements that we have in the product as well. And the third one, how do we make sure that containers in OpenStack can come together in a nice manner. >> Yeah, the container piece is something else that, so a lot of effort, here at the show. They announced Kata containers, which, trying to give the security of a VM, lightweight VM. How does Red Hat look at Kata containers? I know Red Hat, you know Linux's containers, you know, very strong position, fill us in on that. >> Yeah, to maybe pull back a little bit and then look at the larger picture of there is the notion of infrastructure or the open infrastructure that you need and OpenStack is a good starting point for that. And then, you overlay on top of that an application deployment management configuration, lifecycle management solution that's the container platform called OpenShift, right. These are the two centers of gravity for the stack. Now, aspects such as Kata containers or Hubbard, which is for again, similar concept of addressing how do you use virtualization in addition to containers to bring some of the value around security et cetera, right? So we are continuing to engage in all these upstream projects, but we'll be careful and methodical in bringing those technologies into our products as we go along. >> Okay, how about Edge is the other kind of major topic that we're having here, I know I've interviewed some Red Hat customers looking at NFV solutions, so some of the big telcos you know specifically that use various pieces. What do you hear from your customers and help us kind of draw that line between the NFV to the Edge. Yeah, so Edge has become the center is kind of the new joke in the sense that, from an NFV perspective, customers have already effectively addressed the CORD errors and the challenges, now it's about how do you scale that and deploy that on a massive scale, right? That's a good problem to have. Now the goodness of virtualization can be brought all the way down to the radio Edge so that a programmable network becomes the reality that a telco or a carrier can get into. So in that context, Edge becomes a series of use cases. You know, it's not just one destination. Another way to say it is there is Edge an objective and there is Edge as a noun. Edge as the objective is a set of technologies that are enabling Edge, Edge networking, right. Edge management, for example, and then Edge as a destination where you have a series of Edge locations starting from CORD error center going all the way to radio. Now, the technology answers for all these are just being figured out right now. So you can say, you know, put crudely, KBM, OpenStack, containers, and Ansible will be all good elements that will come into the picture when it comes to a solution for all these footprints. >> Nice. Radhesh, maybe let's switch over to talk about the summit here, and the people here, filled with people being productive with OpenStack, right? Either looking at it, upgrading it, inheriting it. We talked to people in a bunch of different scenarios Red Hat, huge installed base, and you are good at helping and supporting, and uplifting, and upskilling a set of operators who started with Linux and now have to be responsible for an entire cloud infrastructure. Plus, now, at this conference, we've been talking about containers, we've been talking about open dev, right. That's again broadening the scope of what an operator might have to deal with. How does Red Hat look at that? How are you and your team helping upskill and enhance the role of the operator? >> Yeah, so I think it comes down to, how do we make sure that we are understanding the journey that the operator himself or herself is taking from a career perspective, right, the skill set of evolving from Linux and core automation-related skills to going to being able to understand what does it mean to live with cloud implementation on a day-to-day basis. What does it mean to live with network function virtualization as the way in which new services are going to be deployed. So, our course curriculum has evolved to be able to address all these needs today. That's one dimension, the other dimension is how do we make sure that the product itself is so easy that the journey is getting to a point where the infrastructure is invisible, and the focus is on the application platform on top. So I think we have multiple areas of focus to get to the point where it's so relevant that it's invisible, if that paradox makes sense. That's what we're trying to make happen with OpenStack. >> Radhesh, Red Hat has a very large presence at the show here; we were noting in the keynote the underlying infrastructure didn't get a lot of discussion because it is more mature, and therefore, we can talk about everything like VGPUs and containers, and everything like that. But Red Hat has a lot in the portfolio that helps in some of those underlying pieces. So maybe you can give us some of the highlights there. >> Absolutely, so we aren't looking at OpenStack as the be-all end-all destination for customers, but rather an essential ingredient in the journey to a hybrid cloud. So when you have that lens it becomes natural to you that a portfolio of our offerings, which are either first-party or in conjunction with our partners --we have over 400 partners with whom we have joint solutions as well -- so you naturally take a holistic view and then say, "How do you optimize the experience of ceph plus OpenStack for example." So we were talking about Edge recently, right, in the context of Edge we realize that there is a particular use-case for hyperconverged infrastructure whereby you need to collocate, compute, and store it in a way that the footprint is so small and easy to manage plus you want to have one life-cycle both for OpenStack and ceph right, so to address that we announced, right at hypercloud infrastructure for cloud, as an offering that is co-engineered between ceph team, or our storage team, and the OpenStack team. Right, that's just an example of how, by bringing the rest of the portfolio, we're able to address needs being expressed by our customers today. Or you look forward in terms of use-case, one thing that we are hearing from all our large customers, such as the Amadeus's of the world is, make the experience of OpenShift on OpenStack, easy to deploy and manage, as well as reduce the penalty of running containers on VMs. Because we understand the benefits of security and all of that, but we want to be able to get that without having any penalty of using a virtual infrastructure so that's why we're heavily focused on OpenShift, on OpenStack, as the form-factor for delivering that while continuing to work on things such as Kata containers as well as, you know, Kuryrs, as technology is evolving to make communities much richer as well as the infrastructure management at OpenStack level richer. >> You brought up an interesting point, we spoke a little bit yesterday with John Allessio and Margaret Dawson, about really that kind of multi-cloud world out there, because pieces like Kubernetes and Ansible, aren't just in the data center with this one stack, it's spanning across multiple environments and when we talk to customers, they do cloud, and cloud is multiple things in multiple places and changing all the time. So I'd love to get your viewpoint on what you hear from customers, how Red Hat's helping them across all those environments. >> Absolutely, so the key differentiation we see in being able to provide to our customers is that unlike some of the other providers out there, they're where they are stitching you with a particular private cloud, with the particular public cloud, and then saying, "Hey, this is sort of the equivalent of the AOL walled gardens, if you will, right, that's being created for a particular private and public cloud. What we're saying is fundamentally three things. First is, the foundation of Linux skills from RHEL that you have is going to be what you can build on to innovate for today and tomorrow, that's number one. Secondly, you can invest in infrastructure that is 100% open using OpenStack so that you can use commodity hardware, bring in multiple use-cases which are bleeding it, such as data lags, big data, Apache Spark, or going all the way to cloud-native application, development on top of OpenStack. And then last but not least, when you are embarking on a multi-cloud journey it is important that you're not tied to innovation speed of one particular public cloud provider, or even a private cloud provider, for that matter, so being able to get to a container platform, which is OpenShift, that can run pretty much everywhere, either on PREM or on a public cloud, and give you that single pane of consistency for your application, which is where business and IT alignment is the focus right now, then I think you've got the best of all the worlds. You know, freedom from vendor-lock in, and a future-proof infrastructure and application platform that can take you to where you need to go, right. So pretty excited to be able to deliver on that consistently as of today, as well as in the coming years. >> All right, we just want to give you the final word, for people out there that ... you know, often they get their opinion based on when they first heard of something. OpenStack's been around for a number of years, five years now, with your platform. Give us the takeaway for 2018 here from OpenStack Summit as to how they should be thinking about OpenStack, in that larger picture. >> The key takeaway is that OpenStack is rock-solid, that you can bring into your environment, not just to power your virtual machine infrastructure, but also baremetal infrastructure on which you can bring in containers as well. So if you're thinking about an infrastructure fabric, either to power your telco network or to power your private cloud in its entirety OpenStack is the only place that you need to be looking at and our OpenStack platform from end to end delivers that value proposition. Now the second aspect to think about is, OpenStack is a step in the journey of a hybrid future destination that you can get to. Red Hat not only has the set of surround products and technologies to round-up the solution, but also have the largest partner ecosystem to offer you choice. So what's your excuse from getting to a hybrid cloud today if not tomorrow? >> Well, Radhesh Balakrishnan, thank you for all the updates appreciate catching up with you once again. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Minimam, getting near the end of three days wall-to-wall coverage here in Vancouver, thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. I'm Stu Miniman, with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, it's been a couple of years, actually, Boris Renski, who is the co-founder and CMO of Merantis And also is on the keynote stage for the OpenDev part of this show here. Boris, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Good to see you guys, and great to be back. Thank you for having me back. >> Absolutely, so we're going to talk about OpenDev, we're going to talk about a few things, but let's start with Merantis, your company. I think back to some of my first experiences at the OpenStack show. First of all, Merantis always does great keynotes, I remember there was dancing on stage, there's fun T-shirts I actually coveted. I don't go after swag much, but it was like the Heisenburg 99.999%-- >> I remember that T-shirt, yeah. >> Pure T-shirt for the Breaking Bad fans out there, to date myself on this, but always bring some energy and excitement and Merantis was one of the companies really super glued to OpenStack, so bring us up to 2018. When I think of Merantis, what should I be thinking of and let's get into it from there. >> Yeah, so let me see. We are still super glued to OpenStack. We did go through some changes and some evolutions. I think given how long it's been since we've talked, the notable changes have been a change to our delivery approach and with it some of the changes to actually the underlying software stack, so the most common thing is that we've evolved Merantis OpenStack into what we now call Merantis Cloud Platform and the key difference is how we approach actually the life cycle management of the OpenStack itself. Before our tool for installing and basically updating OpenStack was Fuel which was very prescriptive and monolithic type of delivery method and what we realized is most of it, large customers that we have, they have a fairly heterogeneous reference architectures that you have to cater to and you have to be able to do that in such a way that it is cost effective, so we've rebuilt Fuel for to a new tool called DriveTrain which uses a continuous delivery pattern to manage and deliver updates to OpenStack and with that we've also tweaked out delivery model a little bit. Before we just followed traditional distro-model where we just throw out our software out there. You can download and play with it and call us and we'll support you. When it comes to complicated distributive systems like OpenStack, that are life-cycled following a continuous delivery pattern, most of the companies simply don't have the in-house talent and skills to just take it and start deriving value, so we've moved to what we refer to as a build, operate, transfer model where we actually come in and we set up the environment, we manage an environment to an SLA, give a customer four nines SLA on the up time of the OpenStack environment we're managing and after a period of a year, give the customer an opportunity to gradually take over the operations and by operations I mean, patches, updates, et cetera until after some time we just completely go away or we just take a role of a software support vendor, effectively. So that's on the core business side. Since we haven't talked in a while, so it's a little bit of a long update, sorry. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah, it's okay. >> The thing that we've been talking a lot about recently has been the new thing we launched in beta about a month and a half ago called Merantis application platform, so Merantis Cloud Platform is OpenStack, is our core business. Merantis Application Platform is a new thing that we have launched about month and a half ago that is based on Spinnaker and Spinnaker is this continuous delivery open source tool that's been built by Netflix, originally. >> Yeah, so before we get into the OpenDev and Spinnaker and all that stuff, want your viewpoint on the OpenStack piece, so really appreciate that update. There were years that we thought, oh, it's the battle for who's going to do distributions and as you said, it's not that easy and maybe we had poor expectations as an industry as to where we could take it and where it should be used, so how should people be thinking about OpenStack in general? Can you give us one or two of the key use cases you see in your customer base? >> Yeah, so, I think that what we realized is that when it comes to general purpose cloud, so to speak, there is not tremendous value, at least among the customers that we have the opportunity to interface with, to use OpenStack. You have something that's already in place and you don't touch it and that's usually VMware or you want something new general purpose, people go to public cloud, but there is an enormous opportunity for what we refer to as tuned stacks or clouds that are tuned to particular business use cases and this is where I think is an opportunity for OpenStack to excel and this is historically where we as Merantis been actually delivering value to our customers. So speaking of the use cases, our customer base is split, we split it into enterprise and telco. More than half of the customers, actually, are from the telco side. So telco clouds, there is a variety of use cases. Typically those use cases are function of the, and the overarching use case is NFE, virtually network function virtualization. The specificity and the reference architecture of the actual infrastructure environment is a function of the VNF that is running on that cloud and in some instances if you were to categorize this for telco space, you can think of it in terms of a big cloud for VNFs that don't need to be close to the edge and those that are stretching out to the smaller footprint all the way to the edge and those are vastly different reference architectures and you do different performance optimizations and tuning and this is something that you can only do with something like OpenStack. Now when it comes to the enterprise side, the actually emerging use case that we've been seeing quite a bit of is HPC, because, again, HPC is full of purpose-built equipment, you do networking differently, you do a lot of things differently and a lot of the times the general purpose public clouds don't work for it, so for HPC again, we have a set of reference architectures that are modeled within the Drivetrain that we can just deploy fairly easily out of the box that cater specifically to the HPC use case and the enterprise. >> Boris, do you think HPC then either includes now or evolves into ML and AI as well, again, bespoke hardware, very specific use case? >> Yes, eventually. I think that there is an opportunity there for some of the reference architectures and deployment topologies currently used for HPC to evolve towards some of the AI use cases. Again, I think that, when it comes to enterprise and AI, it's a bit early, so yeah. >> Boris, the tagline of the company is, The Managed Open Cloud Company, and you talked about managing, being a managed cloud. That's been a fascinating development over the last few years. We're seeing it at the OpenStack level and for instance at the kubernetes level as well. Can you talk a little bit about that approach and who are the customers that need that entry ramp or accelerator for these private cloud installations? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that... There are two types of ways to implement infrastructure, implement the cloud. There is those that are trying to, they are looking at public cloud and they are saying, okay, this is like, I see what Amazon's doing, what Google's doing is great. I want the same thing and I want it in-house, for security reasons, for whatever, compliance reasons, doesn't matter. So all of these guys that fall into this category, I think for them to become successful with the cloud on-prem, should follow the managed approach. Again, I'm a little bit biased on this in that I'm selling this-- >> That was always the hit against running your own private cloud is you didn't have, one did not have the expertise in-house-- >> Boris: Yeah, that's exactly correct. >> That's what we need. >> First of all, the whole evolution between Fuel to Drivetrain and using the CD pattern to life-cycling the infrastructure stack is something that there isn't talent out there, there isn't DNA out there and enterprises simply are not able to just go ahead and start doing it and the whole model that, when you go to Amazon, you just have this cloud that is continuously updated for you, you don't have to worry about anything, so this model implies that you focus on delivering the end service rather than delivering the software. When you go to Amazon, you don't get software, you don't get to pick and choose. You just get certain reference architecture that is delivered for you. The guys that want to replicate the Amazon on-premise effectively, in my view, have to be gradually on ramped onto that. You can't just grab the software, do DIY, and expect you'll have an Amazon. There's a second category and the second category is basically like the software guys, the guys that, they are not looking for Amazon, they are looking for cheaper VMware, which is a different experience. I have my own team, I have my opps guys, VMware is great, but it's too expensive, I don't want be locked into it, give me something that is different. So there is value in that, but this is not the segment of the market that we are going after and I don't think that cheaper VMware is what most people refer to when they talk about cloud. So I hope that answers the question. >> Absolutely, so you brought up Spinnaker before. Want to get your thoughts on the things usually, typically on top of OpenStack, but kubernetes, Spinnaker, containers in general. What's Merantis' position on this. What are you hearing from your customers and would love to tease out some of the Spinnaker stuff a bit more. >> Yeah, yeah. Spinnaker thing is fairly new for us. We've been tracking the space and Spinnaker in particular, probably for a year, although have come out publicly just recently about it. The reason why the space was interesting to us was because I think that everybody who is undergoing digital transformation and embracing cloud as a byproduct of it, is really after being able to run the company like a startup, being able to release faster, being able to release more often and in fact, when we'd come to our customers our opening pitch even for OpenStack has always been, buy OpenStack, that'll help you build software faster. On the one hand, it's kind of like a cool pitch, on the other hand, I think everybody in the company, including myself, we're not entirely comfortable with making that leap. OpenStack means I can have an API for my VM's and maybe containers, release software faster. How do you connect the two, right? So, we decided to, in trying to solve this problem of helping companies release software faster, for once rid ourselves of our existing business and our infrastructure centric views of the world and unpack the problem and see what are the real big issues with releasing software faster today. What we realized is that one of the biggest bottlenecks is actually the continuous delivery part because when it comes to continuous delivery or even not to use fancy terms just to, deploying anything to production in the enterprise. It's a very complicated process that requires coordination between multiple teams like the application team, the SRE team, the SEC opps team, all of these teams are using different tools and the handoff process and the handshakes between are very loose, generally so a developer can build something very quickly, but for it to hit production environment, and for the enterprise to actually get feedback from the customers on this, it takes a very long time. So we started thinking about how do you actually shorten that cycle? What can you do? With that kind of frame of mind, we've come across Spinnaker and what we realized is that Spinnaker is actually, in a sense, to continuous delivery what OpenStack is to infrastructure, because the reason why OpenStack became popular is because it's effectively, on one hand, has all these plugins for diverse infrastructure, and on the other hand you can automate the orchestration process of bringing up a VM, instead of having your server people come in, put in the server, your operating people come in and install operating system, the network people come in, configure the network, et cetera, it's actually built a workflow and orchestrated the whole thing automatically without necessarily requiring companies to throw away their existing infrastructure investment. And if you go to the CD space, the situation's kind of similar. You have all these different teams, you have all these different tools, and you need to find a way to automate and orchestrate this process so that you minimize the number of human steps and this is exactly the problem space that Spinnaker's been tackling, so it's a portent of this plugability and having a single API for the entire CD chain and the best implementation would be the one like Netflix has is where the actual developers are able to just deploy to production directly. All of this orchestration between all the testing and all the stuff is done by Spinnaker behind the scenes, so we feel that actually tackling that problem and bringing this innovation into the enterprise is going to be something very dramatic at producing something at an order of magnitude performance gains for our customers. >> Of course, one of the things the foundation announced was the Zule CI/CD. Can you help us reconcile Zule and Spinnaker? >> Zule is from what I would characterize it, primarily deals with VCI side of the spectrum and I mentioned this in my talk, so one of the things we learned as a company is if you unpack CI/CD, which most people, at least in the infrastructure space look at it like it's one thing, like oh CI/CD thing, it's like one thing, basically. In reality, it's not one thing, it's completely separate things, so CI primarily has to do with actually building the code into something that can be deployed, into some deployable artifact and CD takes on from there. So Zule deals primarily with the CI part and it deals with it in a particular way for a set of specific use cases, so Zule emerged as the CI infrastructure for OpenStack Project itself and OpenStack is a very peculiar project in that, there's thousands of developers with different viewpoints on the world that are highly distributed, building many different components that are loosely coupled that all need to come together somehow. So you need to have distributed CI systems that talk to each other and you can merge all of this code and test it all together, so that use case is very relevant for large open source projects and it's probably relevant for enterprises who want to adopt similar type of practices for software development internally, so if you want to some extent de-silo many distributed Dev teams that you have internally as an enterprise and overlay standard process for the CI piece of it for everybody, I think Zule is a good solution and Spinnaker then comes after that, as an additive that does the deployment part. >> John: Yep, that makes sense. >> Alright, for us unfortunately we're running low on time, not going to have much time to dig in to the OpenDev piece. Last question I actually wanted to ask you is what do you say to the naysayers out there. People that aren't here sometimes tend to throw stones at OpenStack failed, OpenStack is dead, all the VCs pulled out years ago. Merantis has been through it and you've got customers. We've had a good experience this week, but it's a different OpenStack than it was a few years ago, so just if you could give us the final word on that. >> Yeah, so, good question. I think that... Basically, OpenStack was at this insane hype back in the day and it's natural to expect that the higher the hype, the bigger going to be the drop, but I think that all technologies ultimately, they can not sustain the hype. You have to level out at a certain point that is equal to the true customer value that you are delivering. So I think that the naysaying is a function of very high hype that has now leveled to the... What it should be, really, in terms of the value being delivered by OpenStack. And there's this pool, it generated this big pool of the naysayers that are walking around and saying that it is dead and the reason why there's the pool is because indeed there is a lot of investment, there is enormous amount of startups that kind of like, ah, we are the cool guys, we are going to change the world, we are going to kill Amazon, whatever, that now are completely gone and now of course they are naysayers and saying that the whole thing's dead, but on the flip side of that, if you just walk around the summit, you can see that there's many more users, there's many more customers that are actually talking about real use cases and then the companies that did stay and stick around, like ourselves, like Red Hat, like Canonical and SUSE, actually, are seeing continued growth and increased usage, so just a nice closing comment is our biggest customer for OpenStack is AT&T. We've been with them for five years now and they've been very excited about it and then, no it's all going to be dead, it's going to be containers now, and nuh nuh nuh, but despite all of that, the usage is continuing to grow and there is 10,000 nodes plus now running physical servers with OpenStack and it continues to work and it just, workloads are moving to it and AT&T is not the only one. There is plenty more that are following this trend, so it's a very long answer to your question, but I remain optimistic. For us it's still very much core of our business and we're continuing to see growth and usage and we are sticking around and sticking to OpenStack. >> Alright, well Boris Renski, it's, as you know, one of our earliest taglines was helping to extract the signal from the noise. We appreciate you helping us to understand the reality outside the hype. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat electronic music) (soft piano music)

>> Narrator: Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its Ecosystem partners. (soft music) >> Hi, and you're watching SiliconANGLE Medias coverage of theCUBE, here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. We've been here, this is now the third day of coverage, John. We've done a couple dozen interviews already. We've got one more day of coverage. We had some kind of perceptions coming in and I have some interesting differing viewpoints as to where we are for OpenStack the project, where this show itself is going. First of all John, give me your impressions overall. Vancouver, your first time here, city I fell in love with last time I came here, and let's get into the show itself, too. >> Sure, sure, I mean the show's a little bit smaller this year than it had been in past years. Some of that is because they pulled some of the technical stuff out last year, or a couple years ago. By being a little bit smaller, and being in a place like Vancouver, I get good energy off of the crowd. The folks we've talked to, the folks that have been going to sessions, have said they've been very good. The people here are practitioners. They are running OpenStack, or about to run OpenStack, or upgrading their OpenStack, or other adjacent technologies. They're real people doing real work. As we talk to folks and sponsors, the conversations have been productive. So, I'd say in general, this kind of a small venue and a beautiful city allows for a really productive community-oriented event, so that's been great. >> Alright, so John come on, on the analysis segment we're not allow to pull any punches. Attendance, absolutely is down. Three years ago when we were here it was around 5500. Mark Collier, on our opening segment, said there was about 2600. But two-year point, I've not talked to a single vendor or attendee here that was like, "Oh boy, nobody's here, "it's not goin' on." Yes, the Expo Hall is way smaller and people flowing through the Expo Hall isn't great all the time, but why is that? Because the people that are here, they're in sessions. They have 40 sessions about Edge Computing. Hot topic, we've talked a bunch about that. Interesting conversations. There is way more in Containers. Containers for more than three years, been a topic conversation. There's so many other sessions of people digging in. The line you've used a couple a time is the people here are people that have mortgages. In a good way, it means these are jobs, these are not them, "Oh, I heard about "this cool new thing, and I'm going to "go check out beautiful Vancouver." Now, yes, we've brought our spouses or significant others, and checking out the environment because yeah, this place is awesome, but there's good energy at the show. There's good technical conversation. Many of the people we've talked to, even if they're not the biggest OpenStack fans, they're like, "But our customers are using this in a lot of different ways." Let's talk about OpenStack. Where is it, where isn't it? What's your take from what you've heard from the customers and the vendors? >> Sure, I definitely think the conversation is warranted. As we came in, from outside the community there was a lot of conversation, even backchannel, like why are you going to OpenStack Summit? What's going on there, is it still alive? Which is kind of a perception of maybe it's an indication of where the marketing is on this project, or where it is on the hype cycle. In terms of where it is and where it isn't, it's built into everything. At this point OpenStack, the infrastructure management, open infrastructure management solution, seems to be mature. Seems to be inside every Telco, every cable company, every transportation company, every bank. People who need private resources and have the smarts and power to do that have leveraged OpenStack now. That seems stable. What was interesting here is, that that doesn't speak to the health overall, and the history of, or the future of the project itself, the foundation, the Summit, I think those are separate questions. You know, the infrastructure and projects seem good. Also here, like we've talked about, this show is not just about OpenStack now. It's about Containers, it's broadening the scope of these people informally known as infrastructure operators, to the application level as well. >> Yeah, if you want to hear a little bit more, some two great interviews we did yesterday. Sean Michael Kerner, who's a journalist. Been here for almost every single one of the OpenStack shows. He's at eWeek, had some really good discussion. He said private cloud, it doesn't exist. Now, he said what does he mean by that? There are companies that are building large scalable cloud with OpenStack but it's like if some of the big China Telecom, big China cloud companies. Oracle and IBM have lots of OpenStack, in what they do, and yes there are, as you mentioned, the telcos are a big used case. We had some Canonical customers talking about Edge as in a used case for a different type of scalability. Lots of nodes but not one massive infrastructure as a service piece. If I talk, kind of the typical enterprise, or definitely going the SNE piece of the market, this is not something that they go and use. They will use services that have OpenStack. It might be part of the ecosystem that they're playing, but people saying, "Oh, I had my VMware environment "and I want to go from virtualization "to private cloud" OpenStack is not usually the first choice, even though Red Hat has some customers that kind of fit into some of the larger sides of that, and we'll be talking to them more about that today. Randy Bias is the other one, take a look. Randy was one of the early, very central to a lot of stuff happening in the Foundation. He's in the networking space now, and he says even though he's not a cheerleader for OpenStack, he's like, "Why am I here? "That's where my customers are." >> Right, right. I mean, I do think it's interesting that public cloud is certainly mentioned. AWS, Google, et cetera, but it's not top of mind for a lot of these folks, and it's mentioned in very different ways depending on, kind of, the players. I think it's very different from last week at Red Hat Summit. Red Hat, with their story, and OpenShift on top of OpenStack, definitely talked public cloud for folks. Then they cross-cloud, hybrid-cloud. I think that was a much different conversation than I've been hearing this week. I think basically, kind of maybe, depends on the approach of the different players in the market, Stu. I know you've been talkin' to different folks about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like, Margaret Dawson at Red Hat helped us talk about how that hybrid-cloud works because here, I hate to say it's, some oh yeah, public cloud, that's too expensive. You're renting, it's always going to be more. It's like, well no, come on, let's understand. There's lot of applications that are there and customers, it's an and message for almost all of them. How does that fit together, I have some critiques as to how this goes together. You brought up another point though John, OpenStack Foundation is more than just OpenStack projects. So, Kata Containers, something that was announced last year, and we're talking about there's Edge, there's a new CI/CD tool, Zuul, which is now fully under the project. Yes, joke of the week, there is no OpenStack, there's only Zuul. There are actually, there's another open-source project named Zuul too, so boy, how many CI/CD tools are out there? We've got two different, unrelated, projects with the same name. John, you look at communities, you look at foundations, if this isn't the core knitting of OpenStack, what is their role vis-a-vis the cloud native and how do they compare to say, the big player in this space is Linux Foundation which includes CNCF. >> That's a good one. I mean, in some sense like all organic things, things are either growing or shrinking. Just growing or dying. On the other hand, in technology, nothing ever truly dies. I think the project seems mature and healthy and it's being used. The Foundation is global in scope and continues to run this. I do wonder about community identity and what it means to be an OpenStack member. It's very community-oriented, but what's at the nut of it here if we're really part of this cloud-native ecosystem. CNCF, you know, it's part of Linux Foundation, all these different foundations, but CNCF, on the other hand, is kind of a grab-bag of technology, so I'm not sure what it means to be a member of CNCF either. I think both of these foundations will continue to go forward with slightly different identities. I think for the community as a whole, the industry as a whole, they are talking and they better be talking, and it's good that they're talking now and working better together. >> Yeah, great discussion we had with Lisa-Marie Namphy who is an OpenStack Ambassador. She holds the meat up in Silicon Valley and when she positions it, it's about cloud-native and its about all these things. So like, Kubernetes is front and center whereas some of the OpenStack people are saying, "Oh no, no, we need to talk more about OpenStack." That's still the dynamic here was, "Oh, we go great together." Well, sometimes thou dost protest too much. Kubranetes doesn't need OpenStack, OpenStack absolutely must be able to play in this Container, cloud-native Kubranetes world. There's lots of other places we can learn about Kubranetes. It is an interesting dynamic that have been sorting out, but it is not a zero-sum game. There's absolutely lots, then we have, I actually was real impressed how many customers we got to speak with on the air this time. Nice with three days of programming, we had a little bit of flexibility, and not just people that were on the keynote stage. Not just people that have been coming for years, but a few of the interviews we had are relatively new. Not somebody that have been on since very early in the alphabet, now we're at queens. >> Right. >> Anything more from the customers or that Container, Kubranetes dynamic that you want to cover? >> Sure, well I mean just that, you know, Containers at least, Containers are everywhere here. So, I think that kind of question has been resolved in some sense. It was a little more contentious last year than this year. I'm actually more bullish on OpenStack as a utility project, after this week, than before. I think I can constantly look people in the eye and say that. The interesting thing for me though, coming from Silicon Valley, is you're so used to thinking about VCs and growth, and new startups, and where's the cutting edge that it's kind of hard to talk about this, maybe this open source business model where the customer basis is finite. It's not growing at 100% a year. Sometimes the press has a hard time covering that. Analysts have a hard time covering that. And if you wanted to give advice to somebody to get into OpenStack, I'm not sure who should if they're not in it already, there's definitely defined use cases, but I think maybe those people have already self-identified. >> Alright, so yeah, the last thing I wanted to mention is yeah. Big thank you to our sponsors to help get us here. The OpenStack Foundation, really supportive of us for years. Six years of us covering it. Our headline sponsor, Red Hat, had some great customers. Talked about this piece, and kind of we talk about it's practically Red Hat month on theCUBE for John with Red Hat Summit and OpenStack. Canonical, Contron, Nuage Networks, all helping us to be able to bring this content to you. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all the coverage in the past as well as where we'll be. Hit John Troyer, J. Troyer, on Twitter or myself, Stu, on Twitter if you ever have any questions, people we should be talking to, viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with what we're talking about. Big thanks to all of our crew here. Thank you to the wonderful people of Vancouver for being so welcoming of this event and of all of us. Check out all the interviews. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Ildiko Vancsa, coming off the edge keynote presentation this morning. She is the ecosystem technical lead with the Edge Computing Group as part of the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Coming into this show, edge is one of those things that it was actually pretty exciting to talk about because edge is not only super hot, but when I thought back to previous shows, this is the sixth year we've had theCUBE here and my fifth year doing it, it's like, wait, I've been talking to all the Telcos for years here. NFV was one of those use cases, and when you connect the dots, it's like oh, edge, of course. I said this conference is actually hipster when it comes to edge. We were totally covering it well before we called it that. So, explain to us your role in the foundation and what led to the formation of this track. >> Yeah, so I'm the ecosystem technical lead within the foundation, which is basically a role that belongs under the business development team. So, I'm basically building connections with our ecosystem members. I'm trying to help them succeed with OpenStack, both as software package and as a community. We are embracing open source, of course, so I'm also trying to advocate for involvement in open source because I think that's a key. Like, you know, picking up an open source software component and use it, that's a great start, but if you really want to be successful with it and you want to be able to successfully build it into your business model, then getting involved in the community, both enhancing the software and maintaining of the software, that's really key. So, my role is also onboarding companies as well to be active members of the community, and my focus is shifting toward edge computing. The history of edge computing in OpenStack basically started last May when Beth Cohen from Verizon described their use case, which is OpenStack in a tiny box in production cycle, wow. So that was also a little bit of an eye-opener for us as well, that yes, it's telecom. It's 5G, but this is the thing that's called edge, and maybe this is something that we should also look deeper into. So, we went to San Francisco last September, OpenDev, 200 people, architects, software developers trying to figure out what edge computing is. I think we had the question at every single session, someone asked that, okay, yeah so, what did you mean exactly when you said edge? Because from the nature of the architecture, like, you have the central cloud and then the sides on the different-- >> John: There are several edges depending on how far you want to go. >> Exactly. >> For you and OpenStack, what does edge mean, or all the above? >> With OpenStack, so after OpenDev when we realized that it's not really a well-defined term, we wrote up a white paper. It's at OpenStack the role/edge. It's a short one, really to just set the ground for what edge computing is. And what we came up with is, so don't imagine like a two-sentence definition for edge computing because I still strongly believe that doesn't exist, and anyone who claims it, that's not true. What we did with the white paper is basically we set characteristics and criteria that defines cloud edge computing per se, like what people are talking about when you're moving out the compute and then working closer to the edge. Like what that means from the bandwidth perspective, from how you will manage it, what that means for security, and all these sort of things. And you can basically characterize what edge means. So we rather described these layers and how far we go, and as far as like, you know, the very end edge device and like the IOT sensors, that's not a target of OpenStack. So, OpenStack itself is infrastructure as a service, so our Edge Computing Group is still staying on that layer. The Edge Computing Group itself is focusing on the angles, what edge brings onto the table, all these requirements, you know, collecting the use cases and trying to figure out what's missing, what we need to implement. >> If can repeat and maybe I'll get it right or wrong. The idea is at a cell tower or at a remote office or branch office or some closet somewhere, there is a full set of OpenStack running, maybe a minimal set of OpenStack, but it's live, it's updatable. You can update services on it. You can update the actual OpenStack itself, and it doesn't need the spoke hardware necessarily, but it's now updatable and part of a bigger multi-cloud infrastructure from some sort of service entity or enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Is that fair? >> I think that's fair. So, there's OpenStack itself that people know very well, a lot of projects. So when we talk about edge, obviously we don't want to say that, okay, pick the whole thing and install all the 60 projects because that's really not suitable for edge. So what, for example, the group is looking into, that which OpenStack components are essential for edge. And also the group is defining small edge, medium edge, what that means from hardware footprint perspectives, so just to figure out what the opportunities are there, what will fit, what will not fit. OpenStack itself is very modular by today, so you can pick up the services that you need. So what we discussed, for example, this week is Keystone, identity, you need it of course. So how much that fits into the edge scenarios. And I think the main conclusion of the forum session yesterday was that, yeah, Keystone supports Federation. We talked through the cases, and it seems like that it's kind of there. So, we now need a few people who will sit down, put together the environment, and start testing it because that's when it comes out that, you know, almost there, but there a few things to tweak. But basically the idea is what you described, pick up the component, put it there, and work with it. We also have another project called Cyborg, which is fairly new. That's for hardware acceleration, so it is providing a framework to plug in GPUs, FPJs, and these sort of, a bit more specialized hardware which will be really useful for edge use cases to OpenStack. So that's for example something that China Mobile and the OPNFV Edge Cloud Group is looking into to use, so I really hope that we will get there this year to test it in the OPNFV Pharos Labs in action. So we also have pretty great cross-community collaboration on trying to figure this whole thing out. >> Yeah, it often helps if we have examples to talk about to really explain this. Beth Cohen, we spoke with her last year and absolutely caught our attention. Got a lot of feedback from the community on it. Had Contron on earlier this week talking about, John was saying, here's some small device there with a little blade and is running pieces of OpenStack there to be able to run. Anything from the keynote or, boy, I think there's 40 sessions that you've got here. If you can, give us a couple of examples of some of the use cases that we're seeing to kind of bring this edge to reality. >> Example use cases is, we just heard this morning, for example, someone from the textile industry like how to detect issues with the fabric. So this is like one new manufacturing use case. I also heard another one, which is not checking the fabric itself, but basically the company who manufactures those machines that they are using to create the fabric, so they would like to have a central cloud and have it connected to the factories. So, being able to monitor how the machines are doing, how they can improve those machines, and also within the factory to monitor all the circumstances. Because for all the chemical processes, it's really important that the temperature and everything else is just, you know, clicks because otherwise all your fabrics will have to go to trash. So, that's manufacturing. A lot of telecom 5G, obviously that is really, really heavy because that's the part of the industry which is there today, so with 5G, all those strict requirements. This is really what we are mainly focusing on today. We are not specializing anything for telecom and in 5G use cases, but we want to make sure that all our components fit into that environment as well. In the white paper, for example, you also could see the retail use case. I'm not sure whether that will be exactly on stage this week, but that is also a great example on like Walmart with the lot of stores around, so how you manage those stores because they're also not wanting to do everything centrally. So, they would like to move the functionality out. What if the network connectivity is cut? They still have to be able to operate the store as nothing happened. So, there are a lot of segments of the industry who already have kind of really well-defined use cases. And what we see is that there's many overlapping between the requirements from the different segments that we're going to address. >> Are we seeing things like AI and ML coming up in these conversations also? >> Yes, like I think it was the manufacturing use case when I heard that they are planning to use that, and it's popping up. I think as far as our group is concerned, we are more looking into, I don't know, let's say lower-level requirements like how you maintain and operate the hundreds and thousands of edge sites, what happens with security, what happens with monitoring, what happens with all these sort of things. Like we have a new project rolling in under the foundation umbrella called Airship, which is basically deployment and lifecycle management, which is supposed to address one of the aspect that you were talking about on, okay, so how you manage this, how you upgrade this. And upgrade is, again, a really interesting question because I think I talked to someone yesterday who was like, yes, the Contron guys, they were saying that yeah, upgrade, it's really ambitious. So let say that maybe 18, 24 month or something like some kind of tech operator will decide to upgrade something out in the edge because it's out there, it's working, let's not touch this. So when we talk about upgrade, even that, I think, will depend on the bits of the industry that, what pace they will decide to take. >> Are there any particular surprises or learnings that you've had this year after talking with this community for a week now? You said, well, last year, I was very impressed last year when they got up on stage and talked about that. That kind of expanded my mind a little bit. You've been working with this now for a year, this whole track and forum sessions. Anything you're excited about taking to the future or learnings or surprises that, oh, this is really going to work or anything like that? Any parts of it that are really interesting? You talked about security upgrades. We've talked about a lot of the technical components, but it seems like it's working. >> I think at this point, at least on my end, I think I'm over the surprise phase. So what surprises me the most is how many groups there are out there who are trying to figure out what this whole edge thing is. And what we need to really focus on among the technical requirements is that how we are working together with all these groups just to make sure that the integration between the different things that we are all developing and working on is smooth. So like, we've been working together with the OPNFV community for a while now. It's a really fruitful relationship between us. Like seeing OpenStack being deployed in a full-stack environment and being tested, that's really priceless. And we are planning to do the same thing with edge as well, and we are also looking into ONAP, Aquino, Et-see-mac, so looking into the open source groups, looking into the standardization and really just trying to ensure that when we talk about open infrastructure, that that really is designed and developed in a way that integrates well with the other components. It's synchronized with the standardization activities because I think especially in case of edge, when we say interoperability, that's a level higher than what we call the interoperability on the telecom level I think. Like when you just imagine one operator network and applications from other providers popping up in that network, and components that just realizing the network popping up from different vendors. And this whole thing has to work together. So, I think OpenStack and open infrastructure has a really big advantage there compared to any proprietary solution because we have to address this, I think, really big challenge, and it's also a really important challenge. >> Ildiko, really appreciate you giving us all the updates here on the edge track, the keynote, definitely one of the areas that is capturing our attention and lots of people out there. So, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with co-host this week is John Troyer. I'm happy to welcome to the program, first time guest. It's Anne Bertucio, who is the Kata Containers Community Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, it's our pleasure and the containers has been a discussion we've been having for a few years now. I remember when we were last year in Vancouver, three years ago that the joke was it was Docker, Docker, Docker year. Tell us a little bit first your role, how long you've been with the foundation, and what you're covering there. >> Absolutely, I've been with the foundation for going on three years at this point. The Kata Containers Project we announced in December. It's come up and come in there as a community manager helping them figure out since December to the launch now, in less than six months we had to figure out how are we going to work together. How are we going to merge two code bases and we have to create a new open source project and new community. So leading that has been a big part of my work. >> So there's a whole track on Containers now. Give us a little bit of flavor for our audience that couldn't be sitting in the keynote and attend all the sessions. What were they missing? >> I think the major theme was security. Mia, she's the PM of security at Google. She opened it up saying containers don't contain. And I almost wished we'd been on a game show. Like containers don't contain. That was the theme of the day and we talked about where did Kata come from? Kata came from how do we answer that question. I think people got so excited about performance and portability about containers. We forgot about security a little bit and now we're seeing some of the ramifications and it's time to make this the year of security. >> So you talk about bringing two code basis together. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the ingredients are here to get to our dish that we finally call Kata Containers Projects? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we have ren-V from Hyper and we had Clear Containers from Intel. And they both looked at things a little differently like Hyper has a fracty implementation that was really critical to their customers. Clear Containers are becoming a little bit from runC Vert containers. And what we arrive at for 1.0 is the OCI compatible runtime is going to put a lightweight VM around your container, and we're thrilled to look beyond 1.0 and to things like supporting hardware accelerators. >> So it may be just to raise it up one level before we go on. How do containers in some sense, let's repeat maybe what you said, see if I get it right. >> Anne: Yeah. >> It's wrapping a container and a lightweight VM. And that gives us the isolation and security that's traditionally associated with a virtual machine with all the APIs and flexibility and performance, and all the other goodness of a container. One container in one VM is the first implementation. >> Yeah, I think the easy way to think about, you're talking about Docker Docker Docker. So in Kata, really instead of using runC as your runtime, we would just say Kata runtime, and now we have our Docker containers but they're wrapped in these light weight VMs each with their own kernel. >> I think back to the early days when we were trying to figure out what these whole containers were and was that the death of virtualization? It was like VMs, gosh they take minutes to spin up, and container is super fast. Security, oh VMs yeah, there's security there but we need to move fast, fast, fast. So explain how this helps bring together the peanut butter and chocolate, if we will? >> Absolutely, oh I love peanut butter and chocolate but that's really what it is. Like you were saying virtualization, yes. Super secure, slow. I think I have a clip art chart with a sad turtle on it. A little bit slower. The container is super fast, we're getting a little nervous about security. I think we maybe see groups and name spaces are good, but people who are enterprise environments. They've been putting full blown VMs around their containers 'cause they were saying well it's not enough. And I need two isolation boundaries, not just one. >> Right, in terms of some of the use cases then. I imagine multitenancy would be one and then perhaps even, I think some of the newest trend defense in depth of even an individual app putting different zones in different components or different risk zones in their own containers, their own VMs. Even inside an individual app just making sure that the different components can only talk to each other in ways that they're suppose to. >> Absolutely, I think it's anytime where you're running untrusted code, or you have questions about what's going on there or you just want a heightened security. Kata is an easy used case then. >> Sure, I guess my VMware call it microsegmentation would be their buzz word on it. >> Oh I got to think about what mine is going to be. >> Or we can all use the same words, it's good. >> So Anne, Intel Clear Containers was a piece of this. Of course Intel partners with everyone there. Give us a little bit also the ecosystem and the team that makes this up. Is this, people out there will be like, oh, well but Docker has their solution and VMware has their solution. How does this fit into the broader ecosystem? >> Our team is incredibly diverse. I've just been thrilled with 1.0. We had 40 contributors from a good diversity of companies. Our architecture committee, it's Google, it's Huawei, Hyper, Intel and Microsoft and I think we've, I was saying in the other note the other day. I was on a call for a architecture committee and we had AMD, ARM and Intel all talking about the same solution. So it's the beauty of open source that we've brought all of these groups together. >> One of the things that also struck us especially if we've been here. The diversity of the show is always really good. The main keynote, it's not oh, did they brought up some people of diversities. Oh no, these are the project leads and therefore they're doing this. Can you touch on some of the diversity and activities at the show itself? >> In terms of technologies, we're looking at or? >> No, I just, so there is, I'm just saying you talked about the community, the diversity of companies as well, the diversity of people. So we've got lots of the women inclusion. >> Oh sure. >> Things like that. >> Yeah, I know we had the executive producer of Chasing Grace was here and I know she's been, Jennifer Clower, is that correct? >> Stu: Yes, Jennifer Clower. We actually interviewed her last week at a different show. >> Oh fantastic. Yeah her document has been incredibly well received. I know she's making the rounds to get the word out there about what's going on with Women in Tech. And we were more than thrilled to host her and have her here and be apart of conversation. >> Clear Community is a big part of OpenStack, the OpenStack Summit and care of the OpenStack Foundation. In terms of Kata Containers, you work for the OpenStack Foundation. Is Kata officially then part of the OpenStack or does that have a different governance model? >> That's a great question. This is an area of confusion because it's the first time the foundation is broken out and there's the OpenStack Project, and there's Kata Containers the Project, but we both live at the OpenStack Foundation. >> John: Okay. >> I think the guiding principles though, and it's really helped us over the last four months is that the OSF, OpenStack Foundation, we believe in open source, open design, open development and open community. And Kata, we were like that's a great home. We believe in that as well. >> Any customers that are yet talking about their early usage of Kata that you can share? >> I think we have a lot of customers from runV and Clear Containers and Kata is going to be their next path forward. So with 1.0 out yesterday, I'm excited to see. We should see some upgrades real soon here. >> What's the path for them to get from where they are to the 1.0? Is that pretty straightforward? >> It should be, yeah, we think so. And they have their support from Intel and from Hyper to help them out with that as well. >> Stu: Okay. >> I was going to ask is Kata Containers, is it integrated in an API or is OpenStack necessary for it or is it independent of, from an infrastructure perspective, OpenStack, the stack? >> Yeah, it's completely independent, but it's also compatible. >> John: Okay. >> You can run on Azure, Google, OpenStack, agnostic of the infrastructure underneath it. >> John: Great. >> Anne, want to give you a final word. Takeaways from the show that you'd want people to have. >> Absolutely, I think the final word is containers are fantastic, it's probably time to take a look at your container architecture. Think about it from a security perspective, and I would encourage everyone to go check out Kata Containers and see if that's the solution for them. >> Anne Bertucio, really appreciate you joining and sharing with us everything happening. It can work with or without the OpenStack Containers. Absolutely a big trend, but security absolutely top of mind from everyone we've talked to. If it's not top of mind of a company, I'm always a little bit worried about them. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage and this is exclusive coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Usually this time of year it is a little bit overcast, but for the second time the OpenStack Summit has been here, the sun is shining. It has been gorgeous weather but we are in here really digging in and understanding it One of the people I have gotten to know through this community especially, is our wrap up guest today, Sean Michael Kerner, who is a senior editor with eWeek, amongst other bi-lines that you have. Pleasure to see you. >> Great, good seeing you too Stu. >> Alright, so we let you keep on the Toronto Bluejays hat >> Thank you, there we go. >> We have had quite a few Canadians on our program here. >> Well, seeing as how you're here in Canada, it's not all that surprising. >> It's lovely. They have you working on Victoria Day. >> Yeah, that's unfortunate but I will take Memorial Day off in a week, so it works out. >> Excellent. So Sean, for our audience that might not know you, give us a little bit about your background. You've been to umpteen of these shows. >> Sure. I have been with the same publication roughly, I guess 15-16 years at this point. I've been writing before there was cloud, core living and Opensource stuff, networking. And then through the magic of technology, I shifted a little bit to security, which is a core focus for me. I have been to every OpenStack Summit since the San Diego Summit, I guess, 2011. Somebody can correct me afterwards. I did miss the Sydney Summit for various reasons, but yeah, I've been to a bunch of these things, so interesting to see how things have shifted over the years from nothing to certain heights to where we are now. >> Alright, so bring us up to that, as to where we are now. Attendance is down a little bit. They haven't been talking a lot about it but quality I guess is here. Sessions, they've broadened down a bit of the scope. We have been digging into it, but want to get your take so far. >> Yeah, well it's like anything else, there are standard hype cycles, as it were and there's a trough of disillusionment. I wouldn't call this a trough of disillusionment, but when you get to a certain plateau, people just, there'sn't as much interest. In the early days, I remember the San Diego Summit I went to. They didn't schedule it properly. They didn't know how many people they were going to have, and they had to line up around the corner and stuff. That was six years ago, but that is when OpenStack was new. There was no such thing as the Foundation, and everyone was trying to figure out what was what. And, there was no clue at this point. Cloud is a well understood thing. There are competitive efforts or complimentary efforts, as the Foundation would probably like to put it; whether it's CNCF, there's the public cloud and it's different. There is, with all respect to the OpenStack Foundation and its member projects, there's not as much excitement. This in now a stable, mature ecosystem and because of that, I don't think there's as much of a draw. When something is brand new and shiny, you get more of a draw. If they would have put the name Blockchain somewhere, maybe, maybe they would have had a few more. They put Kubernetes in there, which is fine, but no machine learning or artificial intelligence quite yet, though that's a topic somewhere in there too. >> Yeah, John, you've been making a lot of comments this week talking about we've matured and the lower layer pieces just work a bit more. Give us your take about that. >> Sure. That's the way it seems. There wasn't a whole lot of talk about the release, news release, and all the different components, even the keynotes. But, the people we have talked to, both on the vendor and the customer side, they have working production OpenStack environments. They're very large. They require very few admins. They work. They're embedded in telecom and banking, et cetera. It's here and it's working. >> Yeah, that's so something that happened, maybe three cycles ago at this point, because they used to have the release the same time as the Summit and the Design Summit. It was together, so, there was essentially a celebration of the release. People would talk about the release and then they desegrigated that. I think that took a lot of steam out of the reason why you got developers to attend. So, when you don't have the Design Summit, there's this separate open endeavor, there's the forum, I don't quite understand how that works here now. There isn't as much momentum. Yeah, I agree with you. There has been very little talk about Queens. In each of the project update sessions I have been to, and I have been to a couple, there has always been a slight on Rocky, what's coming. I think we are on the second milestone of Rocky, at this point, so there's some development, but at this point it is incremental featurettes. There is no whiz bang. OK, we're going to have flying cars, you know send a Tesla to outer space kind of Earth shattering kind of news, literally, because that's not where it's at. It's just incremental tuck in features in stability and that kind of thing. >> Alright, you talk space and thinks like that and it brings to mind a certain attendee of the program that has actually been to outer space and maybe one of the more notable moments of the show so far. Give us your take on Mr. Shuttleworth. >> Well, I'm a big fan of Mr. Shuttleworth, top to bottom. Hey Mark. Big fan, always have been. He has his own opinion on things of course. Usually in a keynote you don't tend to take direct aim at competitors and he chose to do that. It made some people a little uncomfortable. I happened to be sitting in the front row, where I like to sit, and there was some Red Hat people, and there were some frantic emails going back and forth. And people were trying to see what was going on et cetera. I think, for me, a little bit of drama is okay. You guys go to more shows than I do, and sometimes you get these kind of sales kind of things. But in an open community, there's almost an unwritten rule, which perhaps will be written after this conference, that whether or not everybody is a business competitor or not, is that this is neutral territory as it were and everybody is kind of friendly. In the exhibit hall, you can say this and that, we are better, whatever, but on the stage you don't necessarily do that, so there was some drama there. Some of my peers wrote about that and I will be writing about it as well. It's a, I prefer to write about technology and not necessarily drama. Whether somebody is faster, better, stronger than others, you let the number prove them out. When we talk about Opensource, Opensource Innovation without Canonical, there probably wouldn't have been an OpenStack. All the initial OpenStack reference and limitations are on Canonical. They got a number of large public clouds, as does Red Hat. I think they both have their tactical merits and I'm sure on some respects Red Hat's better and on some respects Canonical is better, but him standing up there and beating on the competition was something that across the 13 summits I have been I have never seen before. One guy I talked to my first OpenStack Summit was in San Diego and the CTO of VMware at the time came up to, VMware was not an OpenStack contributor at the time, they were thinking about it, and he was fielding questions about how it was competitive or not and he was still complimentary. So there has always been that kind of thing. So, a little bit of an interesting shift, a little bit of drama, and gives this show something memorable, because you and I and others will be able to talk about this five years from now, et cetera. >> You talked about something you would write up. I mean part of your job is to take things back to the readers at eWeek. >> Yeah. >> What are the things, highlights you're going to be covering? >> The highlights for me, Stu and I talked about this at one point off the camera, this is not an OpenStack Summit necessarily, they're calling it Open Infrastructure. I almost thought that they would change, we almost thought that they would change the name of the entire organization to the Open Infrastructure Foundation. That whole shift, and I know the foundation has been talking about that since Sydney last year, that they're going to shift to that, but, that's the take away. The platform itself is not the only thing. Enabling the open infrastructure is nice. They're going to try and play well and where it fits within the whole stack. That gets very confusing because talking about collaboration is all fine and nice, but that is not necessarily news. That is how the hot dog is made and that's nice. But, people want to know what's in that dog and how it is going to work. I think it's a tougher show for me to cover than it has been in past years, because there has been less news. There's no new release. There was Kata 1.0 release and there was the Zuul project coming out on its own. Zuul project, they said it was 3.0, it was actually March was Zuul 3.03. Kata Container project, okay, interesting, we'll see how it goes. But a tougher project, tougher event for me to cover for that reason. Collaboration is all fine and nice. But, the CNCF CloudNativeCon KubeCon event two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, had a little bit more news and a lot it's same kind of issues come up here. So, long winded answer, tough to come up with lessons learned out of this, other than everyone wants to be friends, well some people want to be. And, collaboration is the way forward. But that is not necessarily a new message. >> When I think about Kubernetes, we are talking about the multi cloud world and that's still, the last few years, where it's been. Where does OpenStack really fit in that multi cloud world? One of the things I have been a little disappointed actually, is most of the time, when I'm having a conversation, it's almost the, yeah, there's public cloud, but we are going to claw things back and I need it for governments, and I need all of these other things. When I talk to customers, it is I'm going to choose what I put in my data center. I'm going to choose how I use probably multiple public cloud finders. It is not an anti-public cloud message, and it feels a little bit on the anti-public cloud mass. I want to work with what you're hearing when you >> talk to users? >> When I talk to users, vast majority of people, unless it's something, where there's regulatory issues or certain legacy issues or private cloud, public cloud period. The private cloud idea is gone or mostly gone. When I think about private clouds, it's really VmWare. We have virtualized instances that sitting there. >> What's OpenStack? >> OpenStack is fine, but how many are running OpenStack as a private cloud premise? >> Yeah, so what's OpenStack then? >> When I think of OpenStack, Oracles public cloud. Oracle is not here surprisingly. Oracle's public cloud, Larry Ellison, who I know you guys have spoken to more than once on theCUBE at various points on Oracle World and other things. Oracle's public cloud, they want to compete against AWS. That's all. OpenStack IBM cloud, all OpenStack. The various big providers out of China are OpenStack based. OEH is here. So that's where it fits in is that underlying infrastructure layer. Walmart uses it. Bestbuy, all these other places, Comcast, et cetera; ATT. But individual enterprises, not so much. I have a hard time finding individual enterprises that will tell me we are running our own private cloud as OpenStack. They will tell me they're running VmWare, they will tell me they're running REV or even some flavor of Citrix end server, but not a private cloud. They may have some kind of instances and they will burst out, but it's not, I don't think private cloud for mid tier enterprises ever took off the way some people thought five years ago. >> That's interesting. Let's go meta for a second. You talked about things you do and don't write about, you don't necessarily write the VC's are not here necessarily, but you don't write about necessarily financial stuff. >> Sometimes. There was actually at the Portland summit, I did a panel with press and analysts at the time and afterwards there might have been four different VC's that came up to me and asked me what I thought about different companies. They were looking at different things where they would invest. And I remember, we looked at the board and one VC who shall remain nameless, and I said you know what, we'll look at this board with all these companies and five years from now, three quarters of them will not be here. I think I was probably wrong because it is more than that. There are so many. I wrote a story, I don't remember the exact name of it, but I wrote a story not that long ago about OpenStack deadpool. There are so, multiple companies that raised funding that disappeared. In the networking space, there were things like Plumgrid, they mminorly acquired for assets by Vmware, if I'm not mistaken. There was Pivotal, Joshua McKenzie, one of the co-founders of OpenStack itself, got acquired by Cisco. But they would have collapsed perhaps otherwise. Nebula Computing is perhaps, it still shocks me. They raised whatever it was 50 odd million, someone will correct me afterward. Chris Kemp, CTO of NASA who helped start it. Gone. So, there has been tremendous consolidation. I think when VC's lose money, they lose interest really fast. The other thing you have to think about, from the VC side, they don't write too much on the financial. My good friend Fredrick, who didn't make it, Where are you, Fredrick, where are you? Does more on that funding side. But has there been a big exit for an OpenStack company? Not really, not really. And without that kind of thing, without that precedence it's a tough thing, especially for a market that is now eight years old, give or take. >> Even the exits that had a decent exit, you know that got bought into the say IBM's, Cisco's of the world, and when you look a couple of years later, there's not much left of those organizations. >> Yeah. It's also really hard. People really don't want to compete against, well, some people want to compete against AWS. But, if you're going to try to go toe to toe with them, it's a challenge. >> Okay, so what brings you back here every year? You're speaking at the show. You're talking to people. >> What brings me back here is regardless of the fact that momentum has probably shifted, it's not in that really hype stage, OpenStack's core infrastructure, literally, core infrastructure that runs important assets. Internet assets, whether it certain public cloud vendors, large Fortune 500 companies, or otherwise. So it's an important piece of the stack, whether it's in the hype cycle or not, so that brings me back, because it's important. It brings me back because I have a vested interest. I have written so much about it so I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve. Specifically, I'm speaking here on Thursday doing a panel on defending Cloud Counsel Security as a core competence, a core interest for me. With all these OpenStack assets out there, how they're defended or not is a critical interest. In the modern world, cyber attacks are a given. Everybody should assume they're always under a constant state of attack and how that security works is a core area of interest and why I will keep coming back. I will also keep coming back because I expect there to be another shift. I don't think we have heard the end of the OpenStack story yet. I think the shift towards open infrastructure will evolve a little bit and will come to an interesting conclusion. >> Alright, last thing is what's your favorite question you're asking at this show. Any final things you want to ask us as we wrap? >> Yeah, my favorite, well, I want to ask you guys, what the most interesting answer you got from all the great people you interviewed because I'm sure some of it was negative and you got mostly positive as well. >> Well, we aren't used to answering the questions Stu. >> I'm used to being on the other side here, right. >> Well, I do say we got a lot of stuff about some interesting and juicy cases, like I say, the practitioners I talked to were real. I was always impressed by how few administrators it takes to run a huge OpenStack based cloud once it's set up. I think that's something interesting to me. You asked some folks about a public cloud a lot. >> Yeah, so it has been interesting. For me, it's, we've reached that certain maturity level. I was looking at technology. What's kind of the watermark that this is going to come to? We had said years ago, I don't think you're going to have somebody selling a billion dollars worth of distribution on OpenStack. So, that story with how Kubernetes and Containers and everything fits in, OpenStack is part of the picture, and it might not be the most exciting thing, but then again, if you watch Linux as long as most of us have, Red Hat took a really long time to get a billion dollars and it was much more than just Linux that got them there. This still has the opportunity to be tooling inside the environment. We have talked to a number of users that use it. It's in there. It's not that the flagpole, we're an OpenStack company anymore because there really aren't many companies saying that that is the core of their mission, but that is still an important piece of the overall fabric of what we are covering. >> Exactly right. >> Alright, we on that note, Sean Michael Kerner, we really appreciate you joining us. Please support good technology journalism because it is people like him that help us understand the technology. I read his stuff all the time and always love chatting with him off the record and dragged him on here and Fredrick from Techron Show we are disappointed you could not join us, but we'll get you next time. For Jon Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, be sure to join us for the third day tomorrow of three days of wall to wall live coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. And once again, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada it's the CUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching the CUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program long time friend of the CUBE back from the earliest days, Randy Bias, Vice President with Juniper, Randy, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be back with you guys. >> All right, so Randy, we've been talking about, you know, community, and everything's going good and attendance might be down a little bit but how we fit in with containers and kubernetes, and everything, so we expect you to tear everything up for us and tell us the reality of what's happening in this community. >> I'll do my best (laughing). >> All right, so before we get to the kubernetic stuff, you're working on, we used to call it OpenContrail? Which you were involved in before Juniper acquired it, went through a rebranding recently, Tungsten, which I was looking up, came from the word heavy stone, give us the update from the networking side. >> Yeah, so the short history is that there was a company called Contrail, and they created a software defined networking controller, it was acquired by Juniper in 2012, 2013, and then that was open sourced, so Juniper for a long time was running with sort of two editions, Contrail which was the commercial offering, and OpenContrail which was the open source, and then shortly after I joined Juniper, identified that, you know, we really needed to go back to the drawing board on the way that we had organized the community, and transition it from being Juniper-led to community led, and so over the past year, I spearheaded that effort, and then that culminated in us announcing at the end of March at ONS that, you know, OpenContrail was now Tungsten Fabric. We renamed it, we moved it into the Linux foundation, under its governance, and now Juniper is one of many people of the community that have a seat at the table for the management, both from a business and technical perspective, and we're moving forward with a new reinvigorated community. >> Yeah, so networking sits at really the intersection of this multi-cloud world that we're living in. There's so many players trying to be there, you know Cisco, really moving to become more of a software company, when I interviewed their number two guy at their show, he's like, when you think of Cisco in the future, we're not even going to be a networking company, we'll be a software company. VMware, of course, pushed heavy through, then the Nicira acquisition, where does Tungsten fit, kind of compare and contrast for us, where it fits among some of these other offerings out there in the marketplace. >> Yeah, I mean, I think most enterprise vendors are in a similar transition from being a hardware to software companies. We're no different than any of the rest. I think we have a pretty significant advantage in that we have a lot of growth in the cloud sector, so a lot of the large public clouds are our customers and we're selling a tremendous amount of hardwaring to them, so I think we've got a lot longer runway. But, you know, we just recently hired CTO, Bikash Koley, out of Google, and we're starting to see some additional folks out of Google, like my new boss, Morgan, and what that's bringing with it is a very much a software first type perspective. So Bikash and Morgan really built everything for the Google network from the topper rack all the way out to the win and it's almost all software-based, disaggregated, hardware, software, opensource software running on top of white boxes, and so that kind of perspective is now really deep, start beginning to become embedded in Juniper. And at the head of that is Tungsten. So we see Tungsten Fabric as being sort of a tool that we use to create, you know, a global ubiquitous network fabric, that anybody can use anywhere, without talking to Juniper at all, without knowing that Juniper's part of Tungsten, and then as they grow up and they get to a point where they need multi-cloud, they need federation, or they need kind of day two enterprise operations, you know, we have a commercial version and a commercial distribution that they can use. >> Randy, we talked a little bit about OpenContrail and last year, at OpenStack Summit and moving it to a more of a community based governance model, and now that's happened with the Linux Foundation, can you talk a little bit about the role of opensource governance, and corporate governance, and then foundations, and just going forward, you know, what's an effective model for 2018 going forward, for a foundation-led project and maybe in the context of Tungsten Fabric, and how is that looking? >> Yeah, so again, OpenContrail's now Tungsten Fabrics, might be new for some of the viewers, lot of people still coming to terms with that. And so one of the things that we noticed is that, and when many people go and they say, hey, we want opensource first, the AT&T's of this world, part of what they're saying, one of the aspects of being opensource versus we want to be one of many around the table, we want to have a seat at the table, we want to have the option to contribute code back, and we want to feel like it's a group effort. And so that was a big factor, right? It was an opensource project, but it was largely the governance was carried by Juniper, all the testing infrastructure was Juniper, you know, all of the people who made architectural decisions were Juniper, all of the lead contributors were Juniper, and so, going to Linux Foundation was critical to us having a legal framework, for the trademarks, the code, the licenses, the contributor license agreements, are all owned and operated by the Linux Foundation and not by Juniper, so we basically have a trusted third party who can mediate all those things and create a structure, a governance small structure where Juniper has one seat at the table, and all the other community members do as well. So it was really key to getting, to moving to that model to increase people's interest in the project and to really go the next level. There just wasn't any way to do it without doing this. >> All right, so, Randy, let's talk about OpenStack. You were watching the keynote yesterday, you were, you know, in the Twitter stream, >> Randy: I don't usually watch keynotes, man. >> Stu: But you know this community, so-- >> I do know this community (laughing). >> Give us kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly from your standpoint as to, you know, where we've gone, you know, what's doing well, and what you're frustrated as heck that we still haven't fixed yet. >> Well, I mean, it's great that we have so much inroads amongst the carriers, it's great that, you know, that there's a segment that OpenStack has been able to land in. I mean, at some points when I was feeling particularly pessimistic on some days, I was like, oh man, this thing's never going to go anywhere, so that's great. On the other hand, you know, the promise that we had of sort of being the Linux operating center, operating system of the data center, and you know, really gaining inroads into private cloud and enterprise, that just hasn't materialized and I don't see a path to that. A lot of that has to do with history, I'm not sure how much of that I want to go into here, but I see those as being bright lights. I see the Ocata containers effort and sort of having this alternative structure that's more or less like the umbrella structure that I lobbied for while I was on the board. So for several years on the board, I said we need to really look more like the Apache Software Foundation, we need to look less like the Linux Operating System in terms of how we think about things. Not this big integrated monolithic release, you need more competition between projects and that just wasn't really embraced. And I think that that, in a way, that was one of several things that really kind of limited our ability to capture the market that we really wanted, which is the enterprise market. >> Yeah, well, I know, and one of those sticking points there that I've talked to you many times over the years about is how do I actually deploy this? You know, getting a base configuration and scaling this out, simplicity is tough, getting to those environments, you know, getting it up in two weeks, is good for some environments, but maybe not for others. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's sort of a spectrum, right? At one end of the spectrum, you say hey, I'm going to have a very opinionated approach like kubernetes does, and we're going to limit what we say we can do, you know, we're not all things to all people. And I think that opinionated approach, like the Linux operating system worked very, very well. And then other end of the spectrum is we've got no opinion like the Apache Software Foundation, and then it's up to vendors to go and cherry pick the pieces they want and turn that into some kind of commercial offering, whether it's Hortonworks, or Thi-dare or Du-per or whatever it is, the problem is that OpenStack wound up in the middle where it had the sort of integrated monolithic release cycle which it still does, which started to be all things to all people, and it was never as great as it could be, so it's like we got to support Hyper-V, we got to support VMware, and as the laundry list of all things we have to support grew longer, it became more and more difficult to have a compelling, easy to use, easy to scale offering that any enterprise could consume. >> Randy, a lot of talk this week about edge computing, with several different definitions, right? But it does strike me that, you know, there's a certain set of apps, that you write 'em and that they live fine in a big public cloud, and a big data center somewhere. But there's a lot of hardware that's going to be living out in the world, whether that's at the base of a radio tower, or in a wall, or in my shoe, that is going to be running hardware, and is going to be running something, and sometimes that something can be OpenStack, and we're seeing some examples of it, many examples of that already. Is that an area of growth for OpenStack? Is that an interesting part of how this fabric is going to expand? >> Well, I probably have a contrarian view here. So, I spent a bunch of time at Juniper, one of the things I worked on for a while was edge computing and we're still trying to decide what we want to do there and you know, kind of to the first point you made is everybody's edge is different, right? Is it on the mobile phone, is it back in the data center, the difference is that the real estate gets more expensive as you move out, right? And it's in terms of latency, and it's in terms of bandwidth and it's also in terms of cost of storage and compute. There's a move closer to the mobile device that becomes progressively more expensive, and so that's why a lot of people sort of look and say hey, wouldn't it be nice if we can get you out the closer lower latency and bandwidth and so on but as we looked at it, a lot of the different use cases it became really interesting in that, it wasn't clear if there was that much value between 5 milliseconds and 20 milliseconds, right? I mean, that's pretty, either one's pretty close, sure there's a lot of difference between 20 and a 100, but maybe not so much between 5 and 20. And so we kind of came to the conclusion that at least for right now, probably, the bulk of use cases are fine with 20 milliseconds, and what that means is that regional systems like AWS's Lambda at the Edge, they're in metro, those are probably good for most cases. I don't know that you need to be on the tower, I don't know that you need to be in the central office, so I think edge computing is still nascent, we don't know exactly what all those use cases are, but I think you might be able to service most of them from regional data centers, and then the question really becomes what does that stack need to be and if you have a regional data center that's got plenty of power, plenty of space, then it might be that OpenStack is a good solution, but if you're trying to scale down onto the tower, I got to have some doubts about whether OpenStack can really scale down that far. >> Randy, analytics is something we've been seeing, the networking people used for many years, at this show, starting to hear a lot of discussion about AI and ML, would love your view point as to what you're seeing in that space. >> You know I have some friends who started off in AI in very early days and he had a very pessimistic view. He said, you know this stuff comes and goes, but I'm actually very positive and optimistic about it because the way I look at this is there's a renaissance happening which is that, you know, now ML is really available to masses and you're seeing people do really interesting things like, we have a product called AppFormix, and what they do is they take ML and they apply it to operations and I love this because as an operations guy, you know, I used to have these problems in production where something would go out and the first thing I'd do, is I'm trying to do correlation and then root cause analysis, like, what was the actual failure? Like I can see the symptom on this end and now I have to get all the way back to what caused it, and the reality is that machine learning, AI techniques and protocols can do all the heavy lifting for operators very, very quickly and basically surface a problem for somebody to do the final analysis on. And so I do think that ML and AI apply to very specific vertical problems, it is just a place where we're going to see a tremendous amount of revolution in the next couple years. >> All right, and that hits right at really that intersection between kind of the developers and the operators there-- >> Absolutely. >> What are you seeing from an organizational standpoint, companies you're talking to these days, how are they doing adopting that change, dealing with that, you know, often schism or are they bringing those groups together? >> Well, I think you remember that like in the early days, I used bring my deck along and I would talk about assembly line IT versus the robotics spectrum all of IT and I would sort of make that sort of analogy to sort of the car manufacturing process, and I think what machine learning is really going to do is take us to that next level past that right? So we had the assembly line where we have all the specialists, we had the robotics factory where we had people who know how to build a robots and software, and it's really sort of like, just churning out with a lot of people on the line, and I think the next level after that is, you know, completely fully automated applications driving themselves, you know, self-driving applications, and I think that's when things get really interesting, and maybe we start to remove the traditional operator out of the equation and it really becomes about empowering developers with tools that are comfortable and that leverage all the cloud era and stuff that we built. >> All right, so Randy, you're credited with the pets versus cattle analogy, what's the latest, you were talking about some of the previous slide decks, what's Randy Bias looking on down the road? >> I mean, the stuff just comes to me, man. I can't like predict, but the thing I've been talking about a lot lately is services of platform, I think we might've talked about that last time, which is just this notion that if we look at where Amazon's invested and what's interesting, it's certainly not at the infrastructure layer and it's really not at the PAS layer, it's that thick layer in between with like database as a service and NoSQL as a service, and messaging service, and DNS and so on, where you can kind of cherry pick those things as you're assembling your own PAS for your application, and I still think that's the area that is under-discussed, and the reason is is the people back into basically doing that, building kind of the service as a platform system, but they're not like going into it, kind of like eyes wide open. >> Yeah, so just following up on that last piece, one of the criticisms I have this week is when you talk about multi-cloud, most of the people talk about, oh well people are clawing things back to their data centers. Juniper plays across the board, strong partnership with Amazon, yet you're here, what are you hearing from customers, you know, what do you see as kind of the balance there and, you know, the public cloud's role in the world? >> I mean, they're still winning, right? I don't think there's any doubt, I haven't seen a decline back here talking about, but we are starting to enter into the era of, okay, this stuff is out there, and it's running, but I need to find my governance model, I need to understand who's using what, I need to understand what it's costing me, and that's the sign of the maturation process. And so I think that, you know, we saw in the early days of cloud, people jumping the gun, creating compliance services, and you know, SAS products that would basically measure how much you're spending and think that it's time for that stuff to come back in vogue again, because the tool needs to be there for people to manage these extended supply chain of IT vendors which include the public cloud. And I think that the idea that would claw them back as opposed to like just see that as holistic part of what we're trying to accomplish doesn't make any sense. >> Well learned. Well, Randy Bias, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> John. >> John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of two days of three days of live coverage. Thanks for staying with the CUBE. (bubbly electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)