>> Hi, I'm Adrienne Davis, Customer Success Manager on the CFO-side of the house at Mirantis. With me today is Artem Andreev, Product Manager and expert, who's going to enlighten us today. >> Hello everyone. It's great to hear all of you listening to our discussion today. So my name is Artem Andreev. I'm a Product Manager for Mirantis OpenStack line of products. That includes the current product line that we have in the the next generation product line that we're about to launch quite soon. And actually this is going to be the topic of our presentation today. So the new product that we are very, very, very excited about, and that is going to be launched in a matter of several weeks, is called Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes. For those of you who have been in Mirantis quite a while already, Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes is essentially a reincarnation of our Miranti Cloud Platform version one, as we call it these days. So, and the theme has reincarnated into something more advanced, more robust, and altogether modern, that provides the same, if not more, value to our customers, but packaged in a different shape. And well, we're very excited about this new launch, and we would like to share this excitement with you Of course. As you might know, recently a few months ago, Mirantis acquired Docker Enterprise together with the advanced Kubernetes technology that Docker Enterprise provides. And we made this technology the piece and parcel of our product suite, and this naturally includes OpenStack Mirantis, OpenStack on Kubernetes as well, since this is a part of our product suite. And well, the Kubernetes technology in question, we call Docker Enterprise Container Cloud these days, I'm going to refer to this name a lot over the course of the presentation. So I would like to split today's discussions to several major parts. So for those of you who do not know what OpenStack is in general, a quick recap might be helpful to understand the value that it provides. I will discuss why someone still needs OpenStack in 2020. We will talk about what a modern OpenStack distribution is supposed to do to the expectation that is there. And of course, we will go into a bit of details of how exactly Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes works, how it helps to deploy and manage OpenStack clouds. >> So set the stage for me here. What's the base environment we were trying to get to? >> So what is OpenStack? One can think of OpenStack as a free and open source alternative to VMware, and it's a fair comparison. So OpenStack, just as VMware, operates primarily on Virtual Machines. So it gives you as a user, a clean and crispy interface to launch a virtual VM, to configure the virtual networking to plug this VM into it to configure and provision virtual storage, to attach to your VM, and do a lot of other things that actually a modern application requires to run. So the idea behind OpenStack is that you have a clean and crispy API exposed to you as a user, and alters little details and nuances of the physical infrastructure configuration provision that need to happen just for the virtual application to work are hidden, and spread across multiple components that comprise OpenStack per se. So as compared again, to a VMware, the functionality is pretty much similar, but actually OpenStack can do much more than just Vms, and it does that, at frankly speaking much less price, if we do the comparison. So what OpenStack has to offer. Naturally, the virtualization, networking, storage systems out there, it's just the basic entry level functionality. But of course, what comes with it is the identity and access management features, or practical user interface together with the CLI and command line tools to manage the cloud, orchestration functionality, to deploy your application in the form of templates, ability to manage bare metal machines, and of course, some nice and fancy extras like DNSaaS service, Metering, Secret Management, and Load Balancing. And frankly speaking, OpenStack can actually do even more, depending on the needs that you have. >> We hear so much about containers today. Do applications even need VMs anymore? Can't Kubernetes provide all these services? And even if IaaS is still needed, why would one bother with building their own private platform, if there's a wide choice of public solutions for virtualization, like Amazon web services, Microsoft Azure, and Google cloud platform? >> Well, that's a very fair question. And you're absolutely correct. So the whole trend (audio blurs) as the States. Everybody's talking about containers, everybody's doing containers, but to be realistic, yes, the market still needs VMs. There are certain use cases in the modern world. And actually these use cases are quite new, like 5G, where you require high performance in the networking for example. You might need high performance computing as well. So when this takes quite special hardware and configuration to be provided within your infrastructure, that is much more easily solved with the Vms, and not containers. Of course not to mention that, there are still legacy applications that you need to deal with, and that well, they have just switched from the server-based provision into VM-based provision, and they need to run somewhere. So they're not just ready for containers. And well, if we think about, okay, VMs are still needed, but why don't I just go to a public infrastructure as a service provider and run my workloads there? Now if you can do that, but well, you have to be prepared to pay a lot of money, once you start running your workloads at scale. So public IaaSes, they actually tend to hit your pockets heavily. And of course, if you're working in a highly regulated area, like enterprises cover (audio blurs) et cetera, so you have to comply with a lot of security regulations and data placement regulations. And well, public IaaSes, let's be frank, they're not good at providing you with this transparency. So you need to have full control over your whole stack, starting from the hardware to the very, very top. And this is why private infrastructure as a service is still a theme these days. And I believe that it's going to be a theme for at least five years more, if not more. >> So if private IaaSes are useful and demanded, why does Mirantis just stick to the OpenStack that we already have? Why did we decide to build a new product, rather than keep selling the current one? >> Well, to answer this question, first, we need to see what actually our customers believe more in infrastructure as a service platform should be able to provide. And we've compiled this list into like five criteria. Naturally, private IaaS needs to be reliable and robust, meaning that whatever happens on the underneath the API, that should not be impacting the business generated workloads, this is a must, or impacting them as little as possible, the platform needs to be secure and transparent, going back to the idea of working in the highly regulated areas. And this is again, a table stake to enter the enterprise market. The platform needs to be simple to deploy (audio blurs) 'cause well, you as an operator, you should not be thinking about the internals, but try to focus in on enabling your users with the best possible experience. Updates, updates are very important. So the platform needs to keep up with the latest software patches, bug fixes, and of course, features, and upgrading to a new version must not take weeks or months, and has as little impact on the running workloads as possible. And of course, to be able to run modern application, the platform needs to provide the comparable set of services, just as a public cloud so that you can move your application across your terms in the private or public cloud without having to change it severally, so-called the feature parity, it needs to be there. And if we look at the architecture of OpenStack, and we know OpenStack is powerful, it can do a lot. We've just discussed that, right? But the architecture of OpenStack is known to be complex. And well, tell me, how would you enable the robustness and robustness and reliability in this complex system? It's not easy, right? So, and actually this diagrams shelves, just like probably a third part of the modern update OpenStack cloud. So it's just a little illustration. It's not the whole picture. So imagine how hard it is to make a very solid platform out of this architecture. And well, naturally this also imposes some challenges to provide the transparency and security, 'cause well, the more complex the system is, the harder it is to manage, and well the harder it is to see what's on the inside, and well upgrades, yeah. One of the biggest challenges that we learned from our past previous history, well that many of our customers prefer to stay on the older version of OpenStack, just because, well, they were afraid of upgraded, cause they saw upgrades as time-consuming and risky and divorce. And well, instead of just switching to the latest and greatest software, they preferred reliability by sticking to the old stuff. Well, why? Well, 'cause potentially that meant implied certain impact on their workloads and well an upgrade required thorough planning and execution, just to be as as riskless as possible. And we are solving all of these challenges, of managing a system as complex as OpenStack is with Kubernetes. >> So how does Kubernetes solve these problems? >> Well, we look at OpenStack as a typical microservice architecture application, that is organized into multiple little moving parts, demons that are connected to each other and that talk to each other through the standard API. And altogether, that feels as very good feet to run on top of a Kubernetes cluster, because many of the modern applications, they fall exactly on the same pattern. >> How exactly did you put OpenStack on Kubernetes? >> Well, that's not easy. I'm going to be frank with you. And if you look at the architectural diagram, so this is a stack of Miranda's products represented with a focus of course, on the Mirantis OpenStack, as a central part. So what you see in the middle shelving pink, is Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes itself. And of course around that are supporting components that are needed to be there, to run OpenStack on Kubernetes successfully. So on the very bottom, there is hardware, networking, storage, computing, hardware that somebody needs to configure provision and manage, to be able to deploy the operating system on top of it. And this is just another layer of complexity that abstracts the Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes just from the under lake. So once we have operating system there, there needs to be a Kubernetes cluster, deployed and managed. And as I mentioned previously, we are using the capabilities that this Kuberenetes cluster provides to run OpenStack itself, the control plane that way, because everything in Mirantis OpenStack on Kuberentes is a container, or whatever you can think of. Of course naturally, it doesn't sound like an easy task to manage this multi-layered pie. And this is where Docker Enterprise Container Cloud comes into play, 'cause this is our single pane of glass into day one and day two operations for the hardware itself, for the operating system, and for Docker Enterprise Kubernetes. So it solves the need to have this underlay ready and prepared. And once the underlay is there, you go ahead, and deploy Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes, just as another Kubernetes application, application following the same practices and tools as you use with any other applications. So naturally of course, once you have OpenStack up and running, you can use it to create your own... To give your users ability to create their own private little Kubernetes clusters inside OpenStack projects. And this is one of the measure just cases for OpenStack these days, again, being an underlay for containers. So if you look at the operator experience, how does it look like for a human operator who is responsible for deployment the management of the cloud to deal with Mirantis OpenStack on Kubernetes? So first, you deploy Docker Enterprise Container Cloud, and you use the built-in capabilities that it provides to provision your physical infrastructure, that you discover the hardware nodes, you deploy operating system there, you do configuration of the network interfaces in storage devices there, and then you deploy Kubernetes cluster on top of that. This Kubernetes cluster is going to be dedicated to Mirantis OpenStack on Kuberenetes itself. So it's a special (indistinct) general purpose thing, that well is dedicated to OpenStack. And that means that inside of this cluster, there are a bunch of life cycle management modules, running as Kubernetes operators. So OpenStack itself has its own LCM module or operator. There is a dedicated operator for Ceph, cause Ceph is our major storage solution these days, that we integrate with. Naturally, there is a dedicated lifecycle management module for Stack Light. Stack Light is our operator, logging monitoring alerting solution for OpenStack on Kubernetes, that we bundle toegether with the whole product suite. So Kubernetes operators, directly through, it keeps the TL command or through the practical records that are provided by Docker Enterprise Container Cloud, as a part of it, to deploy the OpenStack staff and Stack Light clusters one by one, and connect them together. So instead of dealing with hundreds of YAML files, while it's five definitions, five specifications, that you're supposed to provide these days and that's safe. And although data management is performed through these APIs, just as the deployment as easily. >> All of this assumes that OpenStack has containers. Now, Mirantis was containerizing back long before Kubernetes even came along. Why did we think this would be important? >> That is true. Well, we've been containerizing OpenStack for quite a while already, it's not a new thing at all. However, is the way that we deploy OpenStack as a Kubernetes application that matters, 'cause Kubernetes solves a whole bunch of challenges that we have used to deal with, with MCP1, when deploying OpenStack on top of bare operating systems as packages. So, naturally Kubernetes provides us with... Allows us to achieve reliability through the self (audio blurs) auto-scaling mechanisms. So you define a bunch of policies that describe the behavior of OpenStack control plane. And Kubernetes follows these policies when things happen, and without actually any need for human interaction. So isolation of the dependencies or OpenStack services within Docker images is a good thing, 'cause previously we had to deal with packages and conflicts in between the versions of different libraries. So now we just ship everything together as a Docker image, and I think that early in updates is an advanced feature that Kubernetes provides natively. So updating OpenStack has never been as easy as with Kubernetes. Kubernetes also provides some fancy building blocks for network and like hold balancing, and of course, collegial tunnels, and service meshes. They're also quite helpful when dealing with such a complex application like OpenStack when things need to talk to each other and without any problem in the configuration. So Helm Reconciling is a place that also has a great deal of role. So it actually is our soul for Kubernetes. We're using Helm Bubbles, which are for opens, provide for OpenStack into upstream, as our low level layer of logic to deploy OpenStack app services and connect them to each other. And they'll naturally automatic scale-up of control plane. So adding in, YouNote is easy, you just add a new Kubernetes work up with a bunch of labels there and well, it handles the distribution of the necessary service automatically. Naturally, there are certain drawbacks. So there's fancy features come at a cost. Human operators, they need to understand Kubernetes and how it works. But this is also a good thing because everything is moving towards Kubernetes these days, so you would have to learn at some point anyway. So you can use this as a chance to bring yourself to the next level of knowledge. OpenStack is not 100% Cloud Native Application by itself. Unfortunately, there are certain components that are stateful like databases, or NOAA compute services, or open-the-switch demons, and that have to be dealt with very carefully when doing operates, updates, and all the whole deployment. So there's extra life cycle management logic build team that handles these components carefully for you. So, a bit of a complexity we had to have. And naturally, Kubernetes requires resources, and keeping the resources itself to run. So you need to have this resources available and dedicated to Kubernetes control plane, to be able to control your application, that is all OpenStack and stuff. So a bit of investment is required. >> Can anybody just containerize OpenStack services and get these benefits? >> Well, yes, the idea is not new, there's a bunch of OpStream open, sorry, community projects doing pretty much the same thing. So we are not inventing a rocket here, let's be fair. However, it's only the way that Kubernetes cooks OpenStack, gives you the robustness and reliability that enterprise and like big customers actually need. And we're doing a great deal of a job, ultimating all the possible day to work polls and all these caveats complexities of the OpenStack management inside our products. Okay, at this point, I believe we shall wrap this discussion a bit up. So let me conclude for you. So OpenStack is an opensource infrastructure as a service platform, that still has its niche in 2020th, and it's going to have it's niche for at least five years. OpenStack is a powerful but very complex tool. And the complexities of OpenStack and OpenStack life cycle management, are successfully solved by Mirantis, through the capabilities of Kubernetes distribution, that provides us with the old necessary primitives to run OpenStack, just as another containerized application these days.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back I'm Stu Miniman, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual event. Of course, when we talk about Cloud Native we talk about Kubernetes there's a lot that's happening to modernize the infrastructure but a very important thing that we're going to talk about today is also what's happening up the stack, what sits on top of it and some of the new use cases and applications that are enabled by all of this modern environment and for that we're going to talk about artificial intelligence and machine learning or AI and ML as we tend to talk in the industry, so happy to welcome to the program. We have two first time guests joining us from Red Hat. First of all, we have Abhinav Joshi and Tushar Katarki they are both senior managers, part of the OpenShift group. Abhinav is in the product marketing and Tushar is in product management. Abhinav and Tushar thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks a lot, Stu, we're glad to be here. >> Thanks Stu and glad to be here at KubeCon. >> All right, so Abhinav I mentioned in the intro here, modernization of the infrastructure is awesome but really it's an enabler. We know... I'm an infrastructure person the whole reason we have infrastructure is to be able to drive those applications, interact with my data and the like and of course, AI and ML are exciting a lot going on there but can also be challenging. So, Abhinav if I could start with you bring us inside your customers that you're talking to, what are the challenges, the opportunities? What are they seeing in this space? Maybe what's been holding them back from really unlocking the value that is expected? >> Yup, that's a very good question to kick off the conversation. So what we are seeing as an organization they typically face a lot of challenges when they're trying to build an AI/ML environment, right? And the first one is like a talent shortage. There is a limited amount of the AI, ML expertise in the market and especially the data scientists that are responsible for building out the machine learning and the deep learning models. So yeah, it's hard to find them and to be able to retain them and also other talents like a data engineer or app DevOps folks as well and the lack of talent can actually stall the project. And the second key challenge that we see is the lack of the readily usable data. So the businesses collect a lot of data but they must find the right data and make it ready for the data scientists to be able to build out, to be able to test and train the machine learning models. If you don't have the right kind of data to the predictions that your model is going to do in the real world is only going to be so good. So that becomes a challenge as well, to be able to find and be able to wrangle the right kind of data. And the third key challenge that we see is the lack of the rapid availability of the compute infrastructure, the data and machine learning, and the app dev tools for the various personas like a data scientist or data engineer, the software developers and so on that can also slow down the project, right? Because if all your teams are waiting on the infrastructure and the tooling of their choice to be provisioned on a recurring basis and they don't get it in a timely manner, it can stall the projects. And then the next one is the lack of collaboration. So you have all these kinds of teams that are involved in the AI project, and they have to collaborate with each other because the work one of the team does has a dependency on a different team like say for example, the data scientists are responsible for building the machine learning models and then what they have to do is they have to work with the app dev teams to make sure the models get integrated as part of the app dev processes and ultimately rolled out into the production. So if all these teams are operating in say silos and there is lack of collaboration between the teams, so this can stall the projects as well. And finally, what we see is the data scientists they typically start the machine learning modeling on their individual PCs or laptops and they don't focus on the operational aspects of the solution. So what this means is when the IT teams have to roll all this out into a production kind of deployment, so they get challenged to take all the work that has been done by the individuals and then be able to make sense out of it, be able to make sure that it can be seamlessly brought up in a production environment in a consistent way, be it on-premises, be it in the cloud or be it say at the edge. So these are some of the key challenges that we see that the organizations are facing, as they say try to take the AI projects from pilot to production. >> Well, some of those things seem like repetition of what we've had in the past. Obviously silos have been the bane of IT moving forward and of course, for many years we've been talking about that gap between developers and what's happening in the operation side. So Tushar, help us connect the dots, containers, Kubernetes, the whole DevOps movement. How is this setting us up to actually be successful for solutions like AI and ML? >> Sure Stu I mean, in fact you said it right like in the world of software, in the world of microservices, in the world of app modernization, in the world of DevOps in the past 10, 15 years, but we have seen this evolution revolution happen with containers and Kubernetes driving more DevOps behavior, driving more agile behavior so this in fact is what we are trying to say here can ease up the cable to EIML also. So the various containers, Kubernetes, DevOps and OpenShift for software development is directly applicable for AI projects to make them move agile, to get them into production, to make them more valuable to organization so that they can realize the full potential of AI. We already touched upon a few personas so it's useful to think about who the users are, who the personas are. Abhinav I talked about data scientists these are the people who obviously do the machine learning itself, do the modeling. Then there are data engineers who do the plumbing who provide the essential data. Data is so essential to machine learning and deep learning and so there are data engineers that are app developers who in some ways will then use the output of what the data scientists have produced in terms of models and then incorporate them into services and of course, none of these things are purely cast in stone there's a lot of overlap you could find that data scientists are app developers as well, you'll see some of app developers being data scientist later data engineer. So it's a continuum rather than strict boundaries, but regardless what all of these personas groups of people need or experts need is self service to that preferred tools and compute and storage resources to be productive and then let's not forget the IT, engineering and operations teams that need to make all this happen in an easy, reliable, available manner and something that is really safe and secure. So containers help you, they help you quickly and easily deploy a broad set of machine learning tools, data tools across the cloud, the hybrid cloud from data center to public cloud to the edge in a very consistent way. Teams can therefore alternatively modify, change a shared container images, machine learning models with (indistinct) and track changes. And this could be applicable to both containers as well as to the data by the way and be transparent and transparency helps in collaboration but also it could help with the regulatory reasons later on in the process. And then with containers because of the inherent processes solution, resource control and protection from threat they can also be very secure. Now, Kubernetes takes it to the next level first of all, it forms a cluster of all your compute and data resources, and it helps you to run your containerized tools and whatever you develop on them in a consistent way with access to these shared compute and centralized compute and storage and networking resources from the data center, the edge or the public cloud. They provide things like resource management, workload scheduling, multi-tendency controls so that you can be a proper neighbors if you will, and quota enforcement right? Now that's Kubernetes now if you want to up level it further if you want to enhance what Kubernetes offers then you go into how do you write applications? How do you actually make those models into services? And that's where... and how do you lifecycle them? And that's sort of the power of Helm and for the more Kubernetes operators really comes into the picture and while Helm helps in installing some of this for a complete life cycle experience. A kubernetes operator is the way to go and they simplify the acceleration and deployment and life cycle management from end-to-end of your entire AI, ML tool chain. So all in all organizations therefore you'll see that they need to dial up and define models rapidly just like applications that's how they get ready out of it quickly. There is a lack of collaboration across teams as Abhinav pointed out earlier, as you noticed that has happened still in the world of software also. So we're talking about how do you bring those best practices here to AI, ML. DevOps approaches for machine learning operations or many analysts and others have started calling as MLOps. So how do you kind of bring DevOps to machine learning, and fosters better collaboration between teams, application developers and IT operations and create this feedback loop so that the time to production and the ability to take more machine learning into production and ML-powered applications into production increase is significant. So that's kind of the, where I wanted shine the light on what you were referring to earlier, Stu. >> All right, Abhinav of course one of the good things about OpenShift is you have quite a lot of customers that have deployed the solution over the years, bring us inside some of your customers what are they doing for AI, ML and help us understand really what differentiates OpenShift in the marketplace for this solution set. >> Yeah, absolutely that's a very good question as well and we're seeing a lot of traction in terms of all kinds of industries, right? Be it the financial services like healthcare, automotive, insurance, oil and gas, manufacturing and so on. For a wide variety of use cases and what we are seeing is at the end of the day like all these deployments are focused on helping improve the customer experience, be able to automate the business processes and then be able to help them increase the revenue, serve their customers better, and also be able to save costs. If you go to openshift.com/ai-ml it's got like a lot of customer stories in there but today I will not touch on three of the customers we have in terms of the different industries. The first one is like Royal Bank of Canada. So they are a top global financial institution based out of Canada and they have more than 17 million clients globally. So they recently announced that they build out an AI-powered private cloud platform that was based on OpenShift as well as the NVIDIA DGX AI compute system and this whole solution is actually helping them to transform the customer banking experience by being able to deliver an AI-powered intelligent apps and also at the same time being able to improve the operational efficiency of their organization. And now with this kind of a solution, what they're able to do is they're able to run thousands of simulations and be able to analyze millions of data points in a fraction of time as compared to the solution that they had before. Yeah, so like a lot of great work going on there but now the next one is the ETCA healthcare. So like ETCA is one of the leading healthcare providers in the country and they're based out of the Nashville, Tennessee. And they have more than 184 hospitals as well as more than 2,000 sites of care in the U.S. as well as in the UK. So what they did was they developed a very innovative machine learning power data platform on top of our OpenShift to help save lives. The first use case was to help with the early detection of sepsis like it's a life-threatening condition and then more recently they've been able to use OpenShift in the same kind of stack to be able to roll out the new applications that are powered by machine learning and deep learning let say to help them fight COVID-19. And recently they did a webinar as well that had all the details on the challenges they had like how did they go about it? Like the people, process and technology and then what the outcomes are. And we are proud to be a partner in the solution to help with such a noble cause. And the third example I want to share here is the BMW group and our partner DXC Technology what they've done is they've actually developed a very high performing data-driven data platform, a development platform based on OpenShift to be able to analyze the massive amount of data from the test fleet, the data and the speed of the say to help speed up the autonomous driving initiatives. And what they've also done is they've redesigned the connected drive capability that they have on top of OpenShift that's actually helping them provide various use cases to help improve the customer experience. With the customers and all of the customers are able to leverage a lot of different value-add services directly from within the car, their own cars. And then like last year at the Red Hat Summit they had a keynote as well and then this year at Summit, they were one of the Innovation Award winners. And we have a lot more stories but these are the three that I thought are actually compelling that I should talk about here on theCUBE. >> Yeah Abhinav just a quick follow up for you. One of the things of course we're looking at in 2020 is how has the COVID-19 pandemic, people working from home how has that impacted projects? I have to think that AI and ML are one of those projects that take a little bit longer to deploy, is it something that you see are they accelerating it? Are they putting on pause or are new project kicking off? Anything you can share from customers you're hearing right now as to the impact that they're seeing this year? >> Yeah what we are seeing is that the customers are now even more keen to be able to roll out the digital (indistinct) but we see a lot of customers are now on the accelerated timeline to be able to say complete the AI, ML project. So yeah, it's picking up a lot of momentum and we talk to a lot of analyst as well and they are reporting the same thing as well. But there is the interest that is actually like ramping up on the AI, ML projects like across their customer base. So yeah it's the right time to be looking at the innovation services that it can help improve the customer experience in the new virtual world that we live in now about COVID-19. >> All right, Tushar you mentioned that there's a few projects involved and of course we know at this conference there's a very large ecosystem. Red Hat is a strong contributor to many, many open source projects. Give us a little bit of a view as to in the AI, ML space who's involved, which pieces are important and how Red Hat looks at this entire ecosystem? >> Thank you, Stu so as you know technology partnerships and the power of open is really what is driving the technology world these days in any ways and particularly in the AI ecosystem. And that is mainly because one of the machine learning is in a bootstrap in the past 10 years or so and a lot of that emerging technology to take advantage of the emerging data as well as compute power has been built on the kind of the Linux ecosystem with openness and languages like popular languages like Python, et cetera. And so what you... and of course tons of technology based in Java but the point really here is that the ecosystem plays a big role and open plays a big role and that's kind of Red Hat's best cup of tea, if you will. And that really has plays a leadership role in the open ecosystem so if we take your question and kind of put it into two parts, what is the... what we are doing in the community and then what we are doing in terms of partnerships themselves, commercial partnerships, technology partnerships we'll take it one step at a time. In terms of the community itself, if you step back to the three years, we worked with other vendors and users, including Google and NVIDIA and H2O and other Seldon, et cetera, and both startups and big companies to develop this Kubeflow ecosystem. The Kubeflow is upstream community that is focused on developing MLOps as we talked about earlier end-to-end machine learning on top of Kubernetes. So Kubeflow right now is in 1.0 it happened a few months ago now it's actually at 1.1 you'll see that coupon here and then so that's the Kubeflow community in addition to that we are augmenting that with the Open Data Hub community which is something that extends the capabilities of the Kubeflow community to also add some of the data pipelining stuff and some of the data stuff that I talked about and forms a reference architecture on how to run some of this on top of OpenShift. So the Open Data Hub community also has a great way of including partners from a technology partnership perspective and then tie that with something that I mentioned earlier, which is the idea of Kubernetes operators. Now, if you take a step back as I mentioned earlier, Kubernetes operators help manage the life cycle of the entire application or containerized application including not only the configuration on day one but also day two activities like update and backups, restore et cetera whatever the application needs. Afford proper functioning that a "operator" needs for it to make sure so anyways, the Kubernetes operators ecosystem is also flourishing and we haven't faced that with the OperatorHub.io which is a community marketplace if you will, I don't call it marketplace a community hub because it's just comprised of community operators. So the Open Data Hub actually can take community operators and can show you how to run that on top of OpenShift and manage the life cycle. Now that's the reference architecture. Now, the other aspect of it really is as I mentioned earlier is the commercial aspect of it. It is from a customer point of view, how do I get certified, supported software? And to that extent, what we have is at the top of the... from a user experience point of view, we have certified operators and certified applications from the AI, ML, ISV community in the Red Hat marketplace. And from the Red Hat marketplace is where it becomes easy for end users to easily deploy these ISVs and manage the complete life cycle as I said. Some of the examples of these kinds of ISVs include startups like H2O although H2O is kind of well known in certain sectors PerceptiLabs, Cnvrg, Seldon, Starburst et cetera and then on the other side, we do have other big giants also in this which includes partnerships with NVIDIA, Cloudera et cetera that we have announced, including our also SaaS I got to mention. So anyways these provide... create that rich ecosystem for data scientists to take advantage of. A TEDx Summit back in April, we along with Cloudera, SaaS Anaconda showcased a live demo that shows all these things to working together on top of OpenShift with this operator kind of idea that I talked about. So I welcome people to go and take a look the openshift.com/ai-ml that Abhinav already referenced should have a link to that it take a simple Google search might download if you need some of that, but anyways and the other part of it is really our work with the hardware OEMs right? And so obviously NVIDIA GPUs is obviously hardware, and that accelerations is really important in this world but we are also working with other OEM partners like HP and Dell to produce this accelerated AI platform that turnkey solutions to run your data-- to create this open AI platform for "private cloud" or the data center. The other thing obviously is IBM, IBM Cloud Pak for Data is based on OpenShift that has been around for some time and is seeing very good traction, if you think about a very turnkey solution, IBM Cloud Pak is definitely kind of well ahead in that and then finally Red Hat is about driving innovation in the open-source community. So, as I said earlier, we are doing the Open Data Hub which that reference architecture that showcases a combination of upstream open source projects and all these ISV ecosystems coming together. So I welcome you to take a look at that at opendatahub.io So I think that would be kind of the some total of how we are not only doing open and community building but also doing certifications and providing to our customers that assurance that they can run these tools in production with the help of a rich certified ecosystem. >> And customer is always key to us so that's the other thing that the goal here is to provide our customers with a choice, right? They can go with open source or they can go with a commercial solution as well. So you want to make sure that they get the best in cloud experience on top of our OpenShift and our broader portfolio as well. >> All right great, great note to end on, Abhinav thank you so much and Tushar great to see the maturation in this space, such an important use case. Really appreciate you sharing this with theCUBE and Kubecon community. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Okay thank you and thanks a lot and have a great rest of the show. Thanks everyone, stay safe. >> Thanks you and stay with us for a lot more coverage from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual edition I'm Stu Miniman and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music plays)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is CUBEs coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition and of course one of the things we love when we come to these conferences is to get to the actual practitioners, understanding how they're using the various technologies especially here at the CNCF show, so many projects, lots of things changing and really excited. We're going to talk about security in a slightly different way than we often do on theCUBE so happy to welcome to the program from Sera4 I have Jeff Klink who's the Vice President of Engineering and Cloud. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks too, thanks for having me. >> All right so I teed you up there, give us if you could just a quick thumbnail on Sera4, what your company does and then your role there. >> Absolutely so we're a physical hardware product addressing the telco markets, utility space, all of those so we kind of differentiate herself as a Bluetooth lock for that higher end space, the highest security market where digital encryption is really an absolute must. So we have a few products including our physical lock here, this is a physical padlock, it is where door locks and controllers that all operate over the Bluetooth protocol and that people can just use simply through their mobile phones and operate at the enterprise level. >> Yeah, I'm guessing it's a little bit more expensive than the the padlock I have on my shed which is getting a little rusty and needs a little work but it probably not quite what I'm looking for but you have Cloud, you know, in your title so give us if you could a little bit you know, what the underlying technology that you're responsible for and you know, I understand you've rolled out Kubernetes over the last couple of years, kind of set us up with what were the challenges you were facing before you started using that? >> Absolutely so Stu We've grown over the last five years really as a company like in leaps and bounds and part of that has been the scalability concern and where we go with that, you know, originally starting in the virtual machine space and, you know, original some small customers in telco as we build up the locks and eventually we knew that scalability was really a concern for us, we needed to address that pretty quickly. So as we started to build out our data center space and in this market it's a bit different than your shed locks. Bluetooth locks are kind of everywhere now, they're in logistics, they're on your home and you actually see a lot of compromises these days actually happening on those kind of locks, the home security locks, they're not built for rattling and banging and all that kind of pieces that you would expect in a telco or utility market and in the nuclear space or so you really don't want to lock that, you know, when it's dropped or bang the boat immediately begins to kind of fall apart in your hands and two you're going to expect a different type of security much like you'd see in your SSH certificates, you know, a digital key certificate that arrives there. So in our as we grew up through that piece Kubernetes became a pretty big player for us to try to deal with some of the scale and also to try to deal with some of the sovereignty pieces you don't see in your shed locks. The data sovereignty meeting in your country or as close to you as possible to try to keep that data with the telco, with the utility and kind of in country or in continent with you as well. That was a big challenge for us right off the bat. >> Yeah, you know Jeff absolutely, I have some background from the telco space obviously, there's very rigorous certifications, there's lots of environments that I need to fit into. I want to poke at a word that you mentioned, scale. So scale means lots of things to lots of different people, this year at the KubeCon CloudNativeCon show, one of the scale pieces we're talking about is edge just getting to lots of different locations as opposed to when people first thought about, you know, scale of containers and the like, it was like, do I need to be like Google? Do I have to have that much a scale? Of course, there is only one Google and there's only a handful of companies that need that kind of scale, what was it from your standpoint, is it you know, the latency of all of these devices, is it you know, just the pure number of devices, the number of locations, what was what was the scale limiting factor that you were seeing? >> It's a bit of both in two things, one it was a scale as we brought new customers on, there were extra databases, there was extra identity services, you know, the more locks we sold and the more telcos we sold too suddenly what we started finding is that we needed all these virtual machines and sources in some way to tie them together and the natural piece to those is start to build shared services like SSO and single sign on was a huge driver for us of how do we unite these spaces where they may have maintenance technicians in that space that work for two different telcos. Hey, tower one is down could you please use this padlock on this gate and then this padlock on this cabinet in order to fix it. So that kind of scale immediately showed us, we started to see email addresses or other on two different places and say, well, it might need access into this carrier site because some other carrier has a equipment on that site as well. So the scale started to pick up pretty quickly as well as the space where they started to unite together in a way that we said, well, we kind of have to scale to parts, not only the individuals databases and servers and identity and the storage of their web service data but also we had to unite them in a way that was GDPR compliant and compliant with a bunch of other regulations to say, how do we get these pieces together. So that's where we kind of started to tick the boxes to say in North America, in Latin America, South America we need centralized services but we need some central tie back mechanism as well to start to deal with scale. And the scale came when it went from Let's sell 1000 locks to, by the way, the carrier wants 8000 locks in the next coming months. That's a real scalability concern right off the bat, especially when you start to think of all the people going along with those locks in space as well. So that's the that's the kind of first piece we had to address and single sign on was the head of that for us. >> Excellent, well you know, today when we talk about how do i do container orchestration Kubernetes of course, is the first word that comes to mind, can you bring us back though, how did you end up with Kubernetes, were there other solutions you you looked at when you made your decision? What were your kind of key criteria? How did you choose what partners and vendors you ended up working with? >> So the first piece was is that we all had a lot of VM backgrounds, we had some good DevOps backgrounds as well but nobody was yet into the the container space heavily and so what we looked at originally was Docker swarm, it became our desktop, our daily, our working environment so we knew we were working towards microservices but then immediately this problem emerged that reminded me of say 10, 15 years ago, HD DVD versus Blu-ray and I thought about it as simply as that, these two are fantastic technologies, they're kind of competing in this space, Docker Compose was huge, Docker Hub was growing and growing and we kind of said you got to kind of pick a bucket and go with it and figure out who has the best backing between them, you know from a security policy, from a usage and size and scalability perspective, we knew we would scale this pretty quickly so we started to look at the DevOps and the tooling set to say, scale up by one or scale up by 10, is it doable? Infrastructure as code as well, what could I codify against the best? And as we started looking at those Kubernetes took a pretty quick change for us and actually the first piece of tooling that we looked at was Rancher, we said well there's a lot to learn the Kubernetes space and the Rancher team, they were growing like crazy and they were actually really, really good inside some of their slack channels and some of their groups but they said, reach out, we'll help you even as a free tier, you know and kind of grow our trust in you and you know, vice versa and develop that relationship and so that was our first major relationship was with Rancher and that grew our love for Kubernetes because it took away that first edge of what am i staring at here, it looks like Docker swarm, they put a UI on it, they put some lipstick on it and really helped us get through that first hurdle a couple years ago. >> Well, it's a common pattern that we see in this ecosystem that you know, open source, you try it, you get comfortable with it, you get engaged and then when it makes sense to roll it into production and really start scaling out, that's when you can really formalize those relationships so bring us through the project if you will. You know, how many applications were you starting with? What was the timeline? How many people were involved? Were there, you know, the training or organizational changes, you know, bring us through under the first bits of the project. >> Sure, absolutely. So, like anything it was a series of VMs, we had some VM that were load balanced for databases in the back and protected, we had some manual firewalls through our cloud provider as well but that was kind of the edge of it. You had your web services, your database services and another tier segregated by firewalls, we were operating at a single DCs. As we started to expand into Europe from the North America, Latin America base and as well as Africa, we said this has got to kind of stop. We have a lot of Vms, a lot of machines and so a parallel effort went underway to actually develop some of the new microservices and at first glance was our proxies, our ingresses, our gateways and then our identity service and SSL would be that unifying factor. We honestly knew that moving to Kubernetes in small steps probably wasn't going to be an easy task for us but moving the majority of services over to Kubernetes and then leaving some legacy ones in VM was definitely the right approach for us because now we're dealing with ingressing around the world. Now we're dealing with security of the main core stacks, that was kind of our hardcore focus is to say, secure the stacks up front, ingress from everywhere in the world through like an Anycast Technology and then the gateways will handle that and proxy across the globe and we'll build up from there exactly as we did today. So that was kind of the key for us is that we did develop our micro services, our identity services for SSO, our gateways and then our web services were all developed in containers to start and then we started looking at complimentary pieces like email notification mechanisms, text notification, any of those that could be containerized later, which is dealt with a single one off restful services were moved at a later date. All right. >> So Jeff, yeah absolutely. What to understand, okay, we went through all this technology, we did all these various pieces, what does this mean to your your business projects? So you talked about I need to roll out 8000 devices, is that happening faster? Is it you know, what's the actual business impact of this technology that you've rolled out? >> So here's the key part and here's a differentiator for us is we have two major areas we differentiate in and the first one is asymmetric cryptography. We do own the patents for that one so we know our communication is secure, even when we're lying over Bluetooth. So that's kind of the biggest and foremost one is that how do we communicate with the locks on how do we ensure we can all the time. Two is offline access, some of the major players don't have offline access, which means you can download your keys and assign your keys, go off site do a site to a nuclear bunker wherever it may be and we communicate directly with the lock itself. Our core technology is in the embedded controllers in the lock so that's kind of our key piece and then the lock is a housing around it, it's the mechanical mechanism to it all. So knowing that we had offline technology really nailed down allowed us to do what many called the blue-green approach, which is we're going down for four hours, heads up everybody globally we really need to make this transition but the transition was easy to make with our players, you know, these enterprise spaces and we say we're moving to Kubernetes. It's something where it's kind of a badge of honor to them and they're saying these guys, you know, they really know what they're doing. They've got Kubernetes on the back end, some we needed to explain it to but as soon as they started to hear the words Docker and Kubernetes they just said, wow, this guys are serious about enterprise, we're serious about addressing it and not only that they're forefront of other technologies. I think that's part of our security plan, we use asymmetric encryption, we don't use the Bluetooth security protocol so every time that's compromised, we're not compromised and it's a badge of honor we were much alongside the Kubernetes. >> Alright, Jeff the thing that we're hearing from a lot of companies out there is that that transition that you're going through from VMs to containerization I heard you say that you've got a DevOps practice in there, there's some skill set challenges, there's some training pieces, there's often, you know, maybe a bump or two in the road, I'm sure your project went completely smoothly but what can you share about, you know, the personnel skill sets, any lessons learned along the way that might help others? >> There was a ton. Rancher took that first edge off of us, you know, cube-cuddle, get things up, get things going, RKE in the Rancher space so the Rancher Kubernetes engine, they were kind of that first piece to say how do I get this engine up and going and then I'll work back and take away some of the UI elements and do it myself, from scheduling and making sure that nodes came up to understanding a deployment versus a DaemonSet, that first UI as we moved from like a Docker swarm environment to the the Rancher environment was really kind of key for us to say, I know what these volumes are, I know the networking and I all know these pieces but I don't know how to put core DNS in and start to get them to connect and all of those aspects and so that's where the UI part really took over. We had guys that were good on DevOps, we had guys are like, hey how do I hook it up to a back end and when you have those UI, those clicks like your pod security policy on or off, it's incredible. You turn it on fine, turn on the pod security policy and then from there, we'll either use the UI or we'll go deeper as we get the skill sets to do that so it gave us some really good assurances right off the bat. There were some technologies we really had to learn fast, we had to learn the cube-cuddle command line, we had to learn Helm, new infrastructure pieces with Terraform as well, those are kind of like our back end now. Those are our repeatability aspects that we can kind of get going with. So those are kind of our cores now is it's a Rancher every day, it's cube-cuddle from our command lines to kind of do those, Terraform to make sure we're doing the same thing but those are all practices we, you know, we cut our teeth with Rancher, we looked at the configs that are generated and said, alright, that's actually pretty good configure, you know, maybe there's a team to tolerance or a tweak we could make there but we kind of work backwards that way to have them give us some best practices and then verify those. >> So the space you're in, you have companies that rely on what you do. Security is so important, if you talk about telecommunications, you know, many of the other environments they have, you know, rigid requirements. I want to get to your understanding from you, you're using some open source tools, you've been working with startups, one of your suppliers Rancher was just acquired by SUSE, how's that relationship between you know, this ecosystem? Is that something that is there any concerns from your end user clients and what are your own comfort level with the moves and changes that are happening? >> Having gone through acquisitions myself and knowing the SUSE team pretty well, I'd say actually it's a great thing to know that the startups are funded in a great source. It's great to hear internally, externally their marketing departments are growing but you never know if a startup is growing or not. Knowing this acquisitions taking place actually gives me a lot of security. The team there was healthy, they were growing all the time but sometimes that can just be a face on a company and just talking to the internals candidly as they've always done with us, it's been amazing. So I think that's a great part knowing that there's some great open source texts, Helm Kubernetes as well that have great backers towards them, it's nice to see part of the ecosystem getting back as well in a healthy way rather than a, you know, here's $10,000 Platinum sponsorship. To see them getting the backing from an open source company, I can't say enough for. >> All right, Jeff how about what's going forward from you, what projects you're looking at or what what additions to what you've already done are you looking at doing down the road? >> Absolutely. So the big thing for us is that we've expanded pretty dramatically across the world now. As we started to expand into South Africa, we've expanded into Asia as well so managing these things remotely has been great but we've also started to begin to see some latencies where we're, you know, heading back to our etcd clusters or we're starting to see little cracks and pieces here in some of our QA environment. So part of this is actually the introduction and we started looking into the fog and the edge compute. Security is one of these games where we try to hold the security as core and as tight as you can but trying to get them the best user experience especially in South Africa and serving them from either Europe or Asia, we're trying to move into those data centers and region as well, to provide the sovereignty, to provide the security but it's about latency as well. When I opened my phone to download my digital keys I want that to be quick, I want the administrators to assign quickly but also still giving them that aspect to say I could store this in the edge, I could keep it secure and I could make sure that you still have it, that's where it's a bit different than the standard web experience to say no problem let's put a PNG as close as possible to you to give you that experience, we're putting digital certificates and keys as close as possible to people as well so that's kind of our next generation of the devices as we upgrade these pieces. >> Yeah, there was a line that stuck with me a few years ago, if you look at edge computing, if you look at IoT, the security just surface area is just expanding by orders or magnitude so that just leaves, you know, big challenges that everyone needs to deal with. >> Exactly, yep. >> All right, give us the final word if you would, you know, final lessons learned, you know, you're talking to your peers here in the hallways, virtually of the show. Now that you've gone through all of this, is there anything that you say, boy I wish I had known this it would have been this good or I might have accelerated things or which things, hey I wish I pulled these people or done something a little bit differently. >> Yep, there's a couple actually a big parts right off the bat and one, we started with databases and containers, followed the advice of everyone out there either do managed services or on standalone boxes themselves. That was something we cut our teeth on over a period of time and we really struggled with it, those databases and containers they really perform as poorly as you think they might, you can't get the constraints on those guys, that's one of them. Two we are a global company so we operate in a lot of major geographies now and ETC has been a big deal for us. We tried to pull our ETC clusters farther apart for better resiliency, no matter how much we tweak and play with that thing, keep those things in a region, keep them in separate, I guess the right word would be availability zones, keep them make redundant as possible and protect those at all costs. As we expanded we thought our best strategy would do some geographical distribution, the layout that you have in your Kubernetes cluster as you go global for hub-and-spoke versus kind of centralized clusters and pods and pieces like that, look it over with a with an expert in Kubernetes, talk to them talk about latencies and measure that stuff regularly. That is stuff that kind of tore us apart early in proof of concept and something we had to learn from very quickly, whether it'll be hub-and-spoke and centralize ETC and control planes and then workers abroad or we could spread the ETC and control planes a little more, that's a strategy that needs to be played with if you're not just in North America, South America, Europe, Asia, those are my two biggest pieces because those are our big performance killers as well as discovering PSP, Pod Security Policies early. Get those in, lock it down, get your environments out of route out of, you know, Port 80 things like that on the security space, those are just your basic housecleaning items to make sure that your latency is low, your performances are high and your security's as tight as you can make it. >> Wonderful, well, Jeff thank you so much for sharing Sera4 for story, congratulations to you and your team and wish you the best luck going forward with your initiatives. >> Absolutely, thanks so much Stu. >> All right, thank you for watching. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (soft music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

Live from San Diego, California it's theCUBE! covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Red Hat a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week, John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, Tom Phelan, who's an HPE Fellow and was the BlueData CTO >> That's correct. >> And is now part of Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. Tom, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so we talked with a couple of your colleagues earlier this morning. >> Right. >> About the HPE container platform. We're going to dig in a little bit deeper later. >> So, set the table for us as to really the problem statement that HP is going to solve here. >> Sure, so Blue Data which is what technologies we're talking about, we addressed the issues of how to run applications well in containers in the enterprise. Okay, what this involves is how do you handle security how do you handle Day-2 operations of upgrade of the software how do you bring CI and CD actions to all your applications. This is what the HPE container platform is all about. So, the announcement this morning, which went out was HPE is announcing the general availability of the HPE container platform, an enterprise solution that will run not only CloudNative applications, are typically called microservices applications, but also Legacy applications on Kubernetes and it's supported in a hybrid environment. So not only the main public cloud providers, but also on premise. And a little bit of divergence for HPE, HPE is selling this product, licensing this product to work on heterogeneous hardware. So not only HPE hardware, but other competitors' hardware as well. >> It's good, one of the things I've been hearing really over the last year is when we talked about Kubernetes, it resonated, for the most part, with me. I'm an infrastructure guy by background. When I talk in the cloud environment, it's really talking more about the applications. >> Exactly. >> And that really, we know why does infrastructure exist? Infrastructure is just to run my applications, it's about my data, it's about my business processes >> Right. >> And it seems like that is a y'know really where you're attacking with this solution. >> Sure, this solution is a necessary portion of the automated infrastructure for providing solutions as a service. So, um, historically, BlueData has been specializing in artificial intelligence, machine learning, deep learning, big data, that's where our strong suit came from. So we, uh, developed a platform that would containerize those applications like TensorFlow, um, Hadoop, Spark, and the like, make it easy for data scientists to stand up some clusters, and then do the horizontal scalability, separate, compute, and storage so that you can scale your compute independent of your storage capacity. What we're now doing is part of the HPE container platform is taking that same knowledge, expanding it to other applications beyond AI, ML, and DL. >> So what are some of those Day-2 implications then uh what is something that folks run into that then now with an HPE container platform you think will eliminate those problems? >> Sure, it's a great question, so, even though, uh, we're talking about applications that are inherently scalable, so, AI and ML and DL, they are developed so they can be horizontal- horizontally scalable, they're not stateless in the true sense of the word. When we say a stateless application, that means that, uh, there is no state in the container itself that matters. So if you destroy the container, reinstate it, there's no loss of continuity. That's a true stateless or CloudNative application. Uh, AI and ML and DL applications tend to have configuration information and state information that's stored in what's known as the Root Storage of the compute node, okay, what's in slash, so you might see, um, per node configuration information in a configuration file in the Etsy directory. Okay, today, if you just take standard off the shelf Kubernetes, if you deploy, um, Hadoop for example, or TensorFlow, and you configure that, you lose that state when the container goes down. With the HPE container platform, we are, we have been moving forward with a, or driving, a open source project known as KubeDirector. A portion of KubeDirector, of the functionality is to preserve that, uh, Root Storage so that if a container goes down, we are allowed- we are enabled to bring a Nether Instance of that container and have it have the same Root Storage. So it'll look like a just a reboot to the node rather than a reinstall of that node. So that's a huge value when you're talking about these, um, machine learning and deep learning applications that have the state in root. >> All right, so, Tom, how does KubeDirector fit compared to compare contrast it, does it kind of sit aside something like Rook, which was talked about in the keynote, talking about being able to really have that, uh, that kind of universal backplate across all of my clusters >> Right, you're going to have to be >> Is that specific for AI and ML or is this >> I, well, that's a great question, so KubeDirector itself is a Kubernetes operator, okay, uh, and we have implemented that, the open-source communities joining in, so, but what it allows us, KubeDirector is, um, application agnostic, so, you could author a YAML file with some pertinent information about the application that you want to deploy on Kubernetes. You give that YAML file to the KubeDirector operator, it will then deploy the application on your Kubernetes cluster and then manage the Day-2 activities, so this is beyond Helm, or beyond KubeFlow, which are deployment engines. So this also has, well, what happens if I lose my container? How do I bring the services back up, and those services are dependent upon the type of application that's there. That's what KubeDirector does. So, KubeDirector allows a new application to be deployed and managed on Kubernetes without having to write a operator in Go Code. Makes it much easier to bring a new application to the platform. >> Gotcha, so Tom, kind of a two-part question, first part, so, uh, you were one of the co-founders of BlueData >> And now with HPE, there's, sometimes I think with technology, some of them are kind of invented in a lab, or in a graduate student's head, others come out of real world experience. And, uh, you're smiling 'cause I think BlueData was really built around, uh, y'know, at least your experience was building these BlueData apps. >> This is a hundred percent real world experience. So we were one of the real early pioneers of bringing, um, these applications into containers y'know, truth be told, when BlueData first started, we were using VMs. We were using OpenStack, and VM more. And we realized that we didn't need to pay that overhead it was possible to go ahead and get the same thing out of a container. So we did that, and we suffered all the slings and arrows of how to make the, um, security of the container, uh, to meet enterprise class standards. How do we automatically integrate with active directory and LDAP, and Kerberos, with a single sign on all those things that enterprises require for their infrastructure, we learned that the hard way through working with, y'know, international banking organizations, financial institutions, investment houses, medical companies, so our, our, all our customers were those high-demand enterprises. Now that we're apart of HP, we're taking all that knowledge that we acquired, bringing it to Kubernetes, exposing it through KubeDirector, where we can, and I agree there will be follow on open-source projects, releasing more of that technology to the open-source community. >> Mhm that was, that was actually part-two of my question is okay, what about, with now with HPE, the apps that are not AI, ML and you nailed it, right, >> Yeah. >> All those enterprise requirements. >> Same problems exist, right, there is secure data, you have secure data in a public cloud, you have it on premise, how do you handle data gravity issues so that you store, you run your compute close to your data where it's necessary you don't want to pay for moving data across the web like that. >> All right, so Tom, platforms are used for lots of different things, >> Yes. >> Bring us inside, what do you feel from your early customers, some of the key use cases that should be highlighted? >> Our key use cases were those customers who were very interested, they had internal developers. So they had a lot of expertise in house, maybe they had medical data scientists, or financial advisors. They wanted to build up sandboxes, so we helped them stand up, cookie-cutter sandboxes within a few moments, they could go ahead and play around with them, if they screwed them up, so what? Right, we tear them down and redo it within moments, they didn't need a lot of DevOps, heavy weight-lifting to reinstall bare-metal servers with these complex stacks of applications. The data scientist that I want to use this software which just came out of the open-source community last week, deployed in a container and I want to mess it up, I want to tighten, y'know, really push the edge on this and so we did that. We developed this sandboxing platform. Then they said, okay, now that you've tested this, I have it in queue A, I've done my CI/CD, I've done my testing, now I want to promote it into production. So we did that, we allowed the customer to deploy and define different quality of service depending on what tier their application was running in. If it was in testing dev, it got the lowest tier. If it was in CI/CD, it got a higher level of resource priority. Once it got promoted to production, it got guaranteed resource priority, the highest solution, so that you could always make sure that the customer who is using the production cluster got the highest level of access to the resources. So we built that out as a solution, KubeDirector now allows us to deploy that same sort of thing with the Kubernetes container orchestrator. >> Tom, you mentioned blue metal, uh, bare-metal, we've talked about VMs, we've been hearing a lot of multicloud stories here, already today, the first day of KubeCon, it seems like that's a reality out in the world, >> Can you talk about where are people putting applications and why? >> Well, clearly, uh, the best practices today are to deploy virtual machines and then put containers in virtual machines, and they do that for two very legitimate reasons. One is concern about the security, uh, plane for containers. So if you had a rogue actor, they could break out of the container, and if they're confined within the virtual machine, you can limit the impact of the damage. One very good, uh, reason for virtual machines, also there's a, uh, feeling that it's necessary to maintain, um, the container's state running in a virtual machine, and then be allowed to upgrade the the Prom Code, or the host software itself. So you want to be able to vMotion a virtual machine from one physical host to another, and then maintain the state of the containers. What KubeDirector brings and what BlueData and HP are stating is we believe we can provide both of those functionalities on containers on bare-metal. Okay, and we've spoken a bit about today already about how KubeDirector allows the Root File System to be preserved. That is a huge component of of why vMotion is used to move the container from one host to another. We believe that we can do that with a reboot. Also, um, HPE container platform runs all virtual machines as, um, reduced priority. So you're not, we're not giving root priority or privileged priority to those containers. So we minimize the attack plane of the software running in the container by running it as an unprivileged user and then tight control of the container capabilities that are configured for a given container. We believe it's just enough priority or just enough functionality which is granted to that container to run the application and nothing more. So we believe that we are limiting the attack plane of that through the, uh and that's why we believe we can validly state we can run these containers on bare-metal without, without the enterprise having to compromise in areas of security or persistence of the data. >> All right, so Tom, the announcement this week, uh is HP container platform available today? >> It will be a- we are announcing it. It's a limited availability to select customers It'll be generally available in Queue 1 of 2020. >> All right, and y'know, give us, y'know, we come back to KubeCon, which will actually be in Boston >> Yes. >> Next year in November >> When we're sitting down with you and you say hugely successful >> Right. >> Give us some of those KPIs as to y'know >> Sure. >> What are your teams looking at? >> So, we're going to look at how many new customers these are not the historic BlueData customers, how many new customers have we convinced that they can run their production work loads on Kubernetes And we're talking about I don't care how many POCs we do or how many testing dev things I want to know about production workloads that are the bread and butter for these enterprises that HP is helping run in the industry. And that will be not only, as we've talked about, CloudNative applications, but also the Legacy, J2EE applications that they're running today on Kubernetes. >> Yeah, I, uh, I don't know if you caught the keynote this morning, but Dan Kohn, y'know, runs the CNCF, uh, was talking about, y'know, a lot of the enterprises have been quitting them with second graders. Y'know, we need to get over the fact that y'know things are going to break and we're worried about making changes y'know the software world that y'know we've been talking about for a number of years, absolutely things will break, but software needs to be a resilient and distributed system, so, y'know, what advice do you give the enterprise out there to be able to dive in and participate? >> It's a great question, we get it all the time. The first thing is identify your most critical use case. Okay, that we can help you with and, and don't try to boil the ocean. Let's get the container platform in there, we will show you how you have success, with that one application and then once that's you'll build up confidence in the platform and then we can run the rest of your applications and production. >> Right, well Tom Phelan, thanks so much for the updates >> Thank you, Stu. >> Congratulations on the launch >> Thank you. >> with the HP container platform and we look forward to seeing the results in 2020. >> Well I hope you invite me back 'cause this was really fun and I'm glad to speak with you today. Thank you. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, still watch more to go here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in San Diego for KubeCon CloudNativeCon, with John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, and happy to welcome to the program two guests, first time guests, I believe. Julio Tapia, who's the director of Cloud BU partner and community with Red Hat and Gou Rao, who's the founder and CEO at Portworx. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, happy to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Alright, let's start with community, ecosystem, it's a big theme we have here at the show. Tell us your main focus, what the team's doing here. >> Sure, so I'm part of a product team, we're responsible for OpenShift, OpenStack and Red Hat virtualization. And my responsibility is to build a partner ecosystem and to do our community development. On the partner front, we work with a lot of different partners. We work with ISVs, we work with OEMs, SIs, COD providers, TelCo partners. And my role is to help evangelize, to help on integrations, a lot of joint solutions, and then do a little bit of go to market as well. And the community side, it's to evangelize with upstream projects or customers with developers, and so forth. >> Alright, so, Gou, actually, it's not luck, but I had a chance to catch up with the Red Hat storage team. Back when I was on the vendor side I partnered with them. Red Hat doesn't sell gear, they're a software company. Everything open-source, and when it comes to data and storage, obviously they're working with partners. So put Portworx into the mix and tell us about the relationship and what you both do together. >> Sure, yeah, we're a Red Hat OpenShift partner. We've been working with them for quite some time now, partner with IBM as well. But yeah, Portworx, we focus on enabling cloud native storage, right? So we complement the OpenShift ecosystem. Essentially we enable people to run stateful services in OpenShift with a lot of agility and we bring DR backup functionality to OpenShift. I'm sure you're familiar with this, but, people, when they deploy OpenShift, they're running fleets of OpenShift clusters. So, multi-cluster management and data accessibility across clusters is a big topic. >> Yeah, if you could, I hear the term cloud native storage, what does that really mean? You know, back a few years ago, containers were stateless, I didn't have my persistent storage, it was super challenging as to how we deal with this. And now we have some options, but what is the goal of what we're doing here? >> There really is no notion of a stateless application, right? Especially when it comes to enterprise applications. What cloud native storage means is, to us at least, it signifies a couple of things. First of all, the consumer of storage is not a machine anymore, right? Typical storage systems are designed to provide storage to either a virtual machine or a hardware server. The consumer of storage is now a container that's running inside of a machine. And in fact, an application is never just one container, it's many containers running on different systems so it's a distributed problem. So what cloud native storage means is the following things. Providing container granular data services, being application aware, meaning that you're providing services to many containers that are running on different systems, and facilitating the data life cycle management of those applications from a Kubernetes way, right? The user experience is now driven through Kubernetes as opposed to a storage admin driving that functionality so it's these three things that make a platform cloud native. >> I want to dig into the operator concept for a little bit here, as it applies to storage. So, first, Operators. I first heard of this a couple years back with the CoreOS folks, who are now part of Red Hat and it's a piece of technology that came into the Kubernetes ecosystem, seems to be very well adopted, they talked about it today on the keynote. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about the ecosystem. But first I want to figure out what it is and in my head, I didn't quite understand it and I'm like, well, okay, automation and life cycle, I get it. There's a bunch of things, Puppet and Chef and Ansible and all sorts of things there. There's also things that know about cloud like Terraform, or Cloudform, or Halloumi, all these sort of things here. But this seems like this is a framework around life cycle, it might be a little higher in the semantic level or knows a little bit more about what's going on inside Kubernetes. >> I'll just touch on this, so Operators, it's a way to codify business logic into the application, so how to manage, how to install, how to manage the life cycle of the application on top of the Kubernetes cluster. So it's a way of automating. >> Right, but-- >> And just to add to that, you mentioned Ansible, Salt, right? So, as engineers, we're always trying to make our lives easier. And so, infrastructure automation certainly is a concept here. What Operators does is it elevates those same needs to more of an application construct level, right? So it's a piece of intelligent software that is watching the entire run-time of an application as opposed to provisioning infrastructure and stepping out of the way. Think of it as a living being, it is constantly running and reacting to what the application is doing and what its needs are. So, on one hand you have automation that sets things up and then the job is done. Here the job is never done, you're sort of, right there as a side car along with the application. >> Nice, but for any sort of life cycle or for any sort of project like this, you have to have code sharing and contributing, right? And so, Julio, can you tell us a little about that? >> What we do is we're obviously all in on Operators. And so we've invested a great deal in terms of documentation and training and workshops. We have certification programs, we're really helping create the ecosystem and facilitate the whole process. You may be familiar, we announced Operator Framework a year ago, it includes Operator SDKs. So we have an Operator SDK for Helm, for Ansible, for Go. We also have announced Operator Life Cycle Manager which does the install, the maintenance and the whole life cycle management process. And then earlier this year we did introduce also, Operatorhub.io which is a community of our Operators, we have about 150 Operators as part of that. >> How does the Operator Framework relate to OpenShare versus upstream Kubernetes? Is it an OpenShift and Red Hat specific thing, or? >> Yes, so, Operatorhub.io is a listing of Operators that includes community Operators. And then we also have certified Operators. And the community Operators run on any Kubernetes instance. The certified Operators make sure that we run on OpenShift specifically. So that's kind of the distinction between those two. >> I remember a Red Hat summit where you talked about some bits. So, give us a little walk around the show, some of the highlights from Operators, the ecosystem, obviously, we've got Portworx here but there's a broad ecosystem. >> Yeah, so we have a huge huge ecosystem. The ISVs play a big part of this. So we've got Operators database partners, security partners, app monitoring partners, storage partners. Yesterday we had an OpenShift commons event, we showcased five of our big Operator partnerships with Couchbase, with MongoDB, with Portworx obviously, with StorageOS and with Dynatrace. But we have a lot of partners in a lot of different areas that are creating these Operators, are certifying them, and they're starting to get a lot of use with customers so it's pretty exciting stuff. >> Gou, I'd love your viewpoint on this because of course, Portworx, good Red Hat partner but you need to work with all the Kubernetes opt-ins out there so, what's the importance of Operators to your business? >> Yeah, you know. OpenShift, obviously, it's one of the leading platforms for Kubernetes out there and so, the reason that is, it's because it's the expectations that it sets to an enterprise customer. It's that Red Hat experience behind it and so the notion of having an Operator that's certified by Red Hat and Red Hat going through the vetting process and making sure that all of the components that it is recommending from its ecosystem that you're putting onto OpenShift, that whole process gives a whole new level of enterprise experience, so, for us, that's been really good, right? Working with Red Hat, going through the process with them and making sure that they are actually double clicking on everything we submit, and there's a real, we iterate with them. So the quality of the product that's put out there within OpenShift is very high. So, we've deployed these Operators now, the Operator that Portworx just announced, right? We have it running in customers' hands so these are real end users, you'll be talking to Ford later on today. Harvard, for example, and so the level of automation that it has provided to them in their platform, it's quite high. >> I was kind of curious to shift maybe to the conference here that you all have a long history. With organizations and both of you personally in the Kubernetes world and cloud native world. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America, 2019. It's pretty big. And I see a lot of folks here, a lot of vendors, a lot of engineers, huge conference, 12,000 people. I mean, any perspective? >> So I've been at Red Hat a little over six years and I was at the very first KubeCon many years ago in San Francisco, I think we had about 200 people there. So this show has really grown over the years. And we're obviously big supporters, we've participated in KubeCon in Shanghai and Barcelona, we're obviously here. We're just super excited about seeing the ecosystem and the whole community grow and expand, so, very exciting. >> Gou? >> Yeah, I mean, like Julio mentioned, right? So, all the way from DockerCon to where we are today and I think last year was 8000 people in Seattle and I think there're probably I've heard numbers like 12? So it's also equally interesting to see the maturity of the products around Kubernetes. And that level of consistency and lack of fracture, right? From mainstream Kubernetes to how it's being adopted in OpenShift, there's consistency across the different Kubernetes platforms. Also, it's very interesting to see how on-prem and public cloud Kubernetes are coexisting. Four years ago we were kind of worried on how that would turn out, but I think it's enabling those hybrid-cloud workloads and I think today in this KubeCon we see a lot of people talking about that and having interest around it. >> That's a really great point there. Julio, want to give you the final word, for people that aren't yet engaged in the ecosystem of Operators, how can they learn more and get involved? >> Yeah, so we're excited to work with everybody, our ecosystem includes customers, partners, contributors, so as long as you're all in on Operators, we're ready to help. We've got tools, we've documentation, we have workshops, we have training, we have certification programs. And we also can help you with go to market. We're very fortunate to have a huge customer footprint, and so for those partners that have solutions, databases, storage solutions, there's a lot of joint opportunities out there that we can participate in. So, really excited to do that. >> Julio, Gou, thank you so much, you have a final word, Gou? >> I was just going to say, so, to follow up on the Operator comment on the certification that Julio mentioned earlier, so the Operator that we have, we were able to achieve level five certification. The level five signifies just the amount of automation that's built into it, so the concept of having Operators help people deploy these complex applications, that's a very important concept in Kubernetes itself. So, glad to be a Red Hat partner. >> That's actually a really good point, we have an Operator maturity model, level one, two, three, four, five. Level one and two are more your installations and upgrades. But the really highly capable ones, the fours and fives, are really to be commended. And Portworx is one of those partners. So we're excited to be here with them. >> That is a powerful statement, we talk about the complexity and how many pieces are in there. Everybody's looking to really help cross that chasm, get the vast majority of people. We need to allow environments to have more automation, more simplicity, a story I heard loud and clear at AnsibleFest earlier this year and through the partner ecosystem. It's good to see progress, so congratulations and thank you both for joining us. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here in Palo Alto, California at the CUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. For a special CUBE conversation, a preview of the upcoming KubeCon, Cloud Native Con in San Diego. Where theCUBE will be there, as well as a bunch of other folks. The New Stack will be there, a lot of other media producers, as well as the big conference. KubeCon, in it's fourth or fifth year, depending on which year you count. Its a super exciting conference, this is where the Kubernetes and the Cloud Native communities come together to set the agenda to talk about all the great things that are going on in the industry and how it's changing tech for good. We're here with Vicki Cheung, who is the Co-Chair and also Software Engineer Manager at Lyft. Vicki great to see you, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm so proud of KubeCon and the community because when we were there, in the early days, when it was kind of forming and created. There was a big vision that it would play a critical role. A lot of people haven't really seen how big it's become. And it's really become so important that the big companies are now moving towards Open Source, the CNC has been very successful. Both on getting vendors in and end user projects. You're setting the agenda. You're setting the table for this year's KubeCon. >> Yeah. >> Tell us what's going on. >> Yeah, I think we're seeing the maturity of the community coming together. It's sort of continuing on this trend where, as you said, the adoption is growing exponentially. I think, that two years ago if you surveyed the room and asked people, "who is using Kubernetes and Docker in production, you'd maybe get, like, a hand. I think you're seeing this thing where, this trend, where this year, I think, if you surveyed the room, it would be like maybe half the room were raising their hands. >> And the acceleration is interesting. You're seeing in, I mean, huge acceleration of the adoption of Kubernetes and other projects. And I think what's interesting to me, and I think commentary that we've been reporting on is that Kubernetes can be that unifying point. And you're seeing this, de facto standard emerging and a lot of people talking about that de facto. And that has accelerated the Production Use Cases. So, the End User Projects are increasing. Is that going to be a focus or main focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Oh yeah, definitely. I think we're seeing, maybe even last year, we've had a lot of end user talks from, you know, early adopters start ups, like tech giants. But this year we're seeing a lot more enterprise use cases. And that's driving a lot of content as well. So, I think when it comes enterprise use cases, we're seeing a lot of talks around security and governance. We're seeing a lot of developer productivity talks, and we're also seeing a lot more focus on how to scale operations. >> So, take me through the focus this year. Let's get this out on the table, because this is a big event. What can people expect this year, when you guys sat in the room, with the teams, and said, "Okay, here's going to be the Con and agenda, "we have a form of that's not broken, let's not fix, what's not broken, so the format's good." What was the focus, what was this year's focus. What's going to be the focus of this year's KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think Bryan and I, when we sit together, we have all the tracks that we've been using, for the last couple of years. And generally we, sort of stick to them, because they're pretty good. But the way we, I think the interesting thing is, we see over the years how the distribution across the tracks have changed. So, for example, I think this year, operations is a super big track, and it's very competitive to get into. And that's because we're seeing a lot more adoption at scale, and different Use cases, different types of companies and production. So, I think that track have been a main focus. And also, I think customizing Kubernetes is another one, as people's use cases got more sophisticated. And in the serve use case track, I think we see a lot more enterprise, like even banks adopting Kubernetes. >> So, essentially the same game as before, but weighting them differently based on adoption? >> Exactly, I think it's a shift, like earlier it would be maybe more like earlier adopter and serve experimental use cases, and now it's like, people are actually going into production now. So, the shift has been into like, how do we get this running reliably, at scale. So, that's what we're seeing. >> In terms of the industry, if you look back, and again you guys went public at Lyft, and you guys are growing, and you guys have a great open source product with Envoy, I'm sure you guys are going to do the Day Zero thing again this year, last year was a big success. Is there any projects that you see coming out of the woodwork that are going to evolve up? And what can people expect in terms of project growth or emerging projects. Is there any indication, from your standpoint? What's going to come out of the community? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of projects that are growing, like Helm continues to grow. I think one thing that I'm seeing, from this year's content is there's a lot of focus on, OPA. Like I said, the security is sort of a growing focus. And OPA is certainly one of the things I think people should expect at this year's conference. Another area that I'm personally very interested in, and I see, I'm happy to see it popping up more this year, is developer experience and developer productivity. As we're, even just personally witnessing at Lyft, adopting Cloud Native Architecture, microservices and Kubernetes, comes with a lot of benefits, but also a lot of new challenges into how people should develop in this ecosystem. So, there are projects like Telepresence and Tilt that are coming up more. And there's a few talks around that, in application and development as well. >> How about the developer's side? What's the general sentiment in the community these days? If you had to kind of, put a parameter out there, what's the general vibe in the community, from a developer's stand point around Cloud Native and Kubernetes? >> I think there's, I think it depends on who you ask. Generally, you know, people are very very excited to be sort of moving in this direction. And I think it allows people to be a lot more flexible in how they develop their applications. But I also think that there's a lot of open questions, that we still have to answer. And this is where, I guess some of these new projects come into help fill the gap. >> Well first of all, you guys have, always have a great conference, theCUBE will be there, as well media producer will be a lot on digital. So, folks not going to the event, they should go and see the face-to-face. I want to get the take on some of the submissions. You guys have an interesting dynamic and CNCF and KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, you have a ton of end user projects, A lot of end user focus, obviously it's an end user focused show. But you also have a lot of vendors, suppliers that are also in the community. So, you have an interesting balance going on. Talk about some of the numbers in terms of submissions, because I know, everyone's got submissions, not everyone gets accepted, like the operations you mentioned is a hot track. What's some of the numbers? Can you share any, kind of statistics around number of submissions versus acceptance? >> Yeah, I think typically CNCF will publish some of the numbers, in a blog post. So, I don't know all the numbers off the top of my head. But for example, in operations, I think the acceptance rate was maybe less than 10%. I think, it wasn't that competitive, maybe two years ago, but certainly as everyone moves to deploying Kubernetes on their own, that's sort of a hot topic. >> What's the relationship in the community, with the big vendors? Obviously you see, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, are big players in there, and they're investing heavily in Kubernetes. And VMware, as well, is also investing. Is that good, bad, is it just balancing? What's the communities view on the participation of the big guys? >> Yeah, I think it's actually been really great to the community and I personally would not have expected Microsoft, ADBS to be as active in the community as they are now, if you asked me five years ago. So, I think it's this interesting thing that Kubernetes and CNCF hasn't managed to do, is instead of having the tech giants having to suck out the energy and the technology into their private ecosystem. It's been the other way around. Where Microsoft and ADBS and Google have been contributing a lot of their integrations and other tooling and projects that they've built on top of the projects in CNCF. And just enriching the community. >> So, you're saying that they've been pushing more towards open source, not pulling out of it? >> Yeah. I think that's, obviously I'm super happy to see that. But I think that was not obvious at all from the beginning. >> Yeah, it's super exciting, you know we've been tracking the business model's evolution. And open source is more powerful than ever before now. And it's growing so fast and changing. Let's talk about the Enterprises now, because I think you're seeing adoption on the classic IT Enterprise moving in. We've interviewed many CSO's, CIO's and practitioners, they all have the same kind of reaction, "Oh my God, this is so good for our business, "Kubernetes what Containers are doing, "will allow us to manage the life cycle of our applications. "The same time bringing Cloud Native, "without a lot of disruption." What's your reaction to that, are you guys seeing that same dynamic? And if so, what is some of the use cases of Enterprises, within KubeCon? >> Yeah, I think one thing is, the earlier pitch is the, of course allows you to have that flexibility to move from your data center to Hybrid Cloud, and maybe to different cloud vendors. So, I think that's super appealing. But another thing that we're seeing this year is, as people adopted at scale they're also seeing a lot of cost savings from adopting Kubernetes, just because it allows them to be a lot more flexible in how they deploy things. I think that, in general as you move to serve a community standard, an Open Source Platform, it does help your developers a lot, because now they don't need to build their own in-house thing, which is, for example, what Lyft had before Kubernetes. So, I think it's generally a productivity win. >> So, on Envoy real quick, while I got you here. Lyft has been involved in donating that project and driving it last year, one of the most notable news, at least from out observation was, that the Envoy did that event the day before. And it was really popular. >> Yeah >> Is it going to happen again? What's some of the views on that? >> Yeah, so EnvoyCon is happening again this year, right before Kubernetes. I think it's even more popular than last year. So, there's going to be a lot of talks around, running Envoy at scale, and also on top of Kubernetes. As people sort of integrate the two technologies more. >> Okay, so I got to ask you the personal observations, you can take your Co-Chair hat off and put your KubeCon community hat on. What dark horses are out there, that you think may surprise people this year? What do you think might happen? Because there is always something that goes on, that's just a surprise, a dark horse, if you will, comes out of the woodwork, what do you think might happen? >> Well, I think there's of course going to be a few new Open Source projects that are launched there. And I also think there will be a lot of, maybe more than usual, interesting people that people can meet at the conference. >> I heard there's a rumor that the original gangsters, or the OG's or the original members, the seven original members are going to be there. >> Yeah, I don't-- >> Confirm or deny? >> I don't know if I can confirm or deny, but-- >> Okay, I think that's a yes, possibly. We'll be tracking that, okay, final question for you. What do you think will be the most important story for people to pay attention to this year? What do you think is going to be, evolving out on the stage? Out on the tracks, out on digital? What do you expect to see this year? What is some of the top stories and top notable points that you think is going to happen this year? >> Yeah, I think one thing that maybe, for me, and for a lot of people is this message that Kubernetes is ready. I think it's been sort of building up in this hype for the last few years. And we've seen adoption, but I think this is truly the year that I see a lot of Enterprise end user cases and I can really say that Kubernetes is ready. >> So the new criteria is proof points? Scale, operationally seeing some operations, real proof points, customer adoption, enterprise and hyperscalers? >> Yeah. >> All right, Vicki thanks for coming in and sharing this preview on KubeCon, Cloud Native Con. It's theCUBE covering the KubeCon, Cloud Native Con preview with Vicki Co-Chair, who set the agenda with her fellow Co-Chair Bryan Liles, as well. Great to have her on and share upcoming conversation around KubeCon. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is The Cube's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman with Corey Quinn as my cohost, even though he says kucon. And joining us on this segment, we're not going debate how we pronounce certain things, but I will try to make sure that I get Bridget Kromhout correct. She is a Principle Cloud Advocate at Microsoft. Thank you for coming back to The Cube. >> Thank you for having me again. This is fun! >> First of all I do have to say, the bedazzled shirt is quite impressive. We always love the sartorial, ya know, view we get at a show like this because there are some really interesting shirts and there is one guy in a three-piece suit. But ya know-- >> There is, it's the high style, got to have that. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Bringing some class to the joint. >> Wearing a suit is my primary skill. (laughing) >> I will tell you that, yes, they sell this shirt on the Microsoft company store. And yes, it's only available in unisex fitted. Which is to say much like Alice Goldfuss likes to put it, ladies is gender neutral. So, all of the gentleman who say, but I have too much dad bod to wear that shirt! I say, well ya know get your bedazzlers out. You too can make your own shirt. >> I say it's not dad bod, it's a father figure, but I digress. (laughing) >> Exactly! >> Alright, so Bridget you're doing some speaking at the conference. You've been at this show a few times. Tell us, give us a bit of an overview of what you're doing here and your role at Microsoft these days. >> Absolutely. So, my talk is tomorrow and I think that, I'm going to go with its a vote of confidence that they put your talk on the last day at 2:00 P.M. instead of the, oh gosh, are they trying to bury it? But no, it's, I have scheduled enough conferences myself that I know that you have to put some stuff on the last day that people want to go to, or they're just not going to come. And my talk is about, and I'm co-presenting with my colleague, Jessica Deen, and we're talking about Helm 3. Which is to say, I think a lot of times it would, with these open-sourced shows people say, oh, why do you have to have a lot of information about the third release of your, third major release of your project? Why? It's just an iterative release. It is, and yet there are enough significant differences that it's kind of valuable to talk about, at least the end user experience. >> Yeah, so it actually got an applause in the keynote, ya know. (Bridget laughing) There are certain shows where people are hootin' and hollerin' for every, different compute instance that that is released and you look at it a little bit funny. But at the keynote there was a singular moment where it was the removal of Tiller which Corey and I have been trying to get feedback from the community as to what this all means. >> It seems, from my perspective, it seemed like a very strange thing. It's, we added this, yay! We added this other thing, yay! We're taking this thing and ripping it out and throwing it right into the garbage and the crowd goes nuts. And my two thoughts are first, that probably doesn't feel great if that was the thing you spent a lot of time working on, but secondly, I'm not as steep in the ecosystem as perhaps I should be and I don't really know what it does. So, what does it do and why is everyone super happy to con sine it to the dub rubbish bin of history? >> Right, exactly. So, first of all, I think it's 100% impossible to be an expert on every single vertical in this ecosystem. I mean, look around, KubeCon has 7,000 plus people, about a zillion vendor booths. They're all doing something that sounds slightly, overlapping and it's very confusing. So, in the Helm, if you, if people want to look we can say there's a link in the show notes but there, we can, people can go read on Helm.sh/blog. We have a seven part, I think, blog series about exactly what the history and the current release is about. But the TLDR, the too long didn't follow the link, is that Helm 1 was pretty limited in scope, Helm 2 was certainly more ambitious and it was born out of a collaboration between Google actually and a few other project contributors and Microsoft. And, the Tiller came in with the Google folks and it really served a need at that specific time. And it was, it was a server-side component. And this was an era when the Roll by Stacks has control and Kubernetes was, well nigh not existent. And so there were a lot of security components that you kind of had to bolt on after the fact, And once we got to, I think it was Kubernetes 1.7 or 1.8 maybe, the security model had matured enough that instead of it being great to have this extra component, it became burdensome to try to work around the extra component. And so I think that's actually a really good example of, it's like you were saying, people get excited about adding things. People sometimes don't get excited about removing things, but I think people are excited about the work that went into, removing this particular component because it ends up reducing the complexity in terms of the configuration for anyone who is using this system. >> It felt very spiritually aligned in some ways, with the announcement of Open Telemetry, where you're taking two projects and combining them into one. >> Absolutely. >> Where it's, oh, thank goodness, one less thing that-- >> Yes! >> I have to think about or deal with. Instead of A or B I just mix them together and hopefully it's a chocolate and peanut butter moment. >> Delicious. >> One of the topics that's been pretty hot in this ecosystem for the last, I'd say two years now it's been service matched, and talk about some complexity. And I talk to a guy and it's like, which one of these using? Oh I'm using all three of them and this is how I use them in my environment. So, there was an announcement spearheaded by Microsoft, the Service Mesh Interface. Give us the high level of what this is. >> So, first of all, the SMI acronym is hilarious to me because I got to tell you, as a nerdy teenager I went to math camp in the summertime, as one did, and it was named SMI. It was like, Summer Mathematics Institute! And I'm like, awesome! Now we have a work project that's named that, happy memories of lots of nerdy math. But my first Unix system that I played with, so, but what's great about that, what's great about that particular project, and you're right that this is very much aligned with, you're an enterprise. You would very much like to do enterprise-y things, like being a bank or being an airline or being an insurance company, and you super don't want to look at the very confusing CNCF Project Map and go, I think we need something in that quadrant. And then set your ships for that direction, and hopefully you'll get to what you need. And it's especially when you said that, you mentioned that, this, it basically standardizes it, such that whichever projects you want to use, whichever of the N, and we used to joke about JavaScript framework for the week, but I'm pretty sure the Service Mesh Project of the week has outstripped it in terms of like speed, of new projects being released all the time. And like, a lot of end user companies would very much like to start doing something and have it work and if the adorable start-up that had all the stars on GitHub and the two contributors ends up, and I'm not even naming a specific one, I'm just saying like there are many projects out there that are great technically and maybe they don't actually plan on supporting your LTS. And that's fine, but if we end up with this interface such that whatever service mesh, mesh, that's a hard word. Whatever service mesh technology you choose to use, you can be confident that you can move forward and not have a horrible disaster later. >> Right, and I think that's something that a lot of developers when left to our own devices and in my particular device, the devices are pretty crappy. Where it becomes a, I want to get this thing built, and up and running and working, and then when it finally works I do a happy dance. And no one wants to see that, I promise. It becomes a very different story when, okay, how do you maintain this? How do you responsibly keep this running? And it's, well I just got it working, what do you mean maintain it? I'm done, my job is done, I'm going home now. It turns out that when you have a business that isn't being the most clever person in the room, you sort of need to have a longer term plan around that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And it's nice to see that level of maturation being absorbed into the ecosystem. >> I think the ecosystem may finally be ready for it. And this is, I feel like, it's easy for us to look at examples of the past, people kind of shake their heads at OpenStack as a cautionary tale or of Sprawl and whatnot. But this is a thriving, which means growing, which means changing, which means very busy ecosystem. But like you're pointing out, if your enterprises are going to adapt some of this technology, they look at it and everyone here was, ya know, eating cupcakes or whatever for the Kubernetes fifth birthday, to an enterprise just 'cause that launched in 2014, June 2014, that sounds kind of new. >> Oh absolutely. >> Like, we're still, we're still running that mainframe that is still producing business value and actually that's fine. I mean, I think this maybe is one of the great things about a company like Microsoft, is we are our customers. Like we also respect the fact that if something works you don't just yolo a new thing out into production to replace it for what reason? What is the business value of replacing it? And I think for this, that's why this, kind of Unix philosophy of the very modular pieces of this ecosystem and we were talking about Helm a little earlier, but there's also, Draft, Brigade, etc. Like the Porter, the CNET spec implementation stuff, and this Cloud Native application bundles, that's a whole mouthful. >> Yes, well no disrespect to your sparkly shirt, but chasing the shiny thing, and this is new and exciting is not necessarily a great thing. >> Right? >> I heard some of the shiny squad that were on the show floor earlier, complaining a little bit about the keynotes, that there haven't been a whole lot of new service and feature announcements. (Bridget laughing) And my opinion on that is feature not bug. I, it turns out most of us have jobs that aren't keeping up with every new commit to an open-source project. >> I think what you were talking about before, this idea of, I'm the developer, I yolo'd out this co-load into production, or I yolo'd this out into production. It is definitely production grade as long as everything stays on the happy path, and nothing unexpected happens. And I probably have air handling, and, yay! We had the launch party, we're drinkin' and eatin' and we're happy and we don't really care that somebody is getting paged. And, it's probably burning down. And a lot of human misery is being poured into keeping it working. I like to think that, considering that we're paying attention to our enterprise customers and their needs, they're pretty interested in things that don't just work on day one, but they work on day two and hopefully day 200 and maybe day 2000. And like, that doesn't mean that you ship something once and you're like, okay, we don't have to change it for three years. It's like, no, you ship something, then you keep iterating on it, you keep bug fixing, you keep, sure you want features, but stability is a feature. And customer value is a feature. >> Well, Bridget I'm glad you brought that up. Last thing I want to ask you 'cause Microsoft's a great example, as you say, as a customer, if you're an Azure customer, I don't ask you what version of Azure you're running or whether you've done the latest security patch that's in there because Microsoft takes care of you. Now, your customers that are pulled between their two worlds is, oh, wait, I might have gotten rid of patch Tuesdays, but I still have to worry and maintain that environment. How are they dealing with, kind of that new world and still have, certain things that are going to stay the old way that they have been since the 90's or longer? >> I mean, obviously it's a very broad question and I can really only speak to the Kubernetes space, but I will say that the customers really appreciate, and this goes for all the Cloud providers, when there is something like the dramatic CVE that we had in December for example. It's like, oh, every Kubernetes cluster everywhere is horribly insecure! That's awesome! I guess, your API gateway is also an API welcome mat for everyone who wants to, do terrible things to your clusters. All of the vendors, Microsoft included, had their managed services patched very quickly. They're probably just like your Harple's of the world. If you rolled your own, you are responsible for patching, maintaining, securing your own. And this is, I feel like that's that tension. That's that continuum we always see our customers on. Like, they probably have a data center full of ya know, veece, fear and sadness, and they would very much like to have managed happiness. And that doesn't mean that they can easily pickup everything in the data center, that they have a lease on and move it instantly. But we can work with them to make sure that, hey, say you want to run some Kubernetes stuff in your data center and you also want to have AKS. Hey, there's this open-source project that we instantiated, that we worked on with other organizations called Vertual Kubelet. There was actually a talk happening about it I think in the last hour, so people can watch the video of that. But, we have now offered, we now have Virtual Node, our product version of it in GA. And I think this is kind of that continuum. It's like, yes of course, you're early adapters want the open-source to play with. Your enterprises want it to be open-source so they can make sure that their security team is happy having reviewed it. But, like you're saying, they would very much like to consume a service so they can get to business value. Like they don't necessarily want to, take, Kelsey's wonderful Kubernetes The Hard Way Tutorial and put that in production. It's like, hmm, probably not, not because they can't, these are smart people, they absolutely could do that. But then they spent their, innovation tokens as, the McKinley blog post puts it, the, it's like, choose boring technology. It's not wrong. It's not that boring is the goal, it's that you want the exciting to be in the area that is producing value for your organization. Like that's where you want most of your effort to go. And so if you can use well vetted open-source that is cross industry standard, stuff like SMI that is going to help you use everything that you chose, wisely or not so wisely, and integrate it and hopefully not spend a lot of time redeveloping. If you redevelop the same applications you already had, its like, I don't think at the end of the quarter anybody is getting their VP level up. If you waste time. So, I think that is, like, one of the things that Microsoft is so excited about with this kind of open-source stuff is that our customers can get to value faster and everyone that we collaborate with in the other clouds and with all of these vendor partners you see on the show floor, can keep the ecosystem moving forward. 'Cause I don't know about you but I feel like for a while we were all building different things. I mean like, instead of, for example, managed services for something like Kubernetes, I mean a few jobs that would go out was that a start up that we, we built our own custom container platform, as one did in 2014. And, we assembled it out of all the LEGOs and we built it out of I think Docker and Packer and Chef and, AWS at the time and, a bunch of janky bash because like if someone tells you there's no janky bash underneath your home grown platform, they are lying. >> It's always a lie, always a lie. >> They're lying. There's definitely bash in there, they may or may not be checking exit codes. But like, we all were doing that for a while and we were all building, container orchestration systems because we didn't have a great industry standard, awesome! We're here at KubeCon. Obviously Kubernetes is a great industry standard, but everybody that wants to chase the shiny is like but surface meshes. If I review talks for, I think I reviewed talks for KubeCon in Copenhagen, and it was like 50 or 60 almost identical service mesh talk proposals. And it's like, and then now, like so that was last year and now everyone is like server lists and its like, you know you still have servers. Like you don't add sensation to them, which is great, but you still have them. I think that that hype train is going to keep happening and what we need to do is make sure that we keep it usable for what the customers are trying to accomplish. Does that make sense? >> Bridget, it does, and unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for sharing everything with our audience here. For Corey, I'm Stu, we'll be back with more coverage. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Euope 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing foundation and eco-system partners. >> Welcome back to the Fira here in Barcelona, Spain. This is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and we're excited to have on the program a first time guest, but a company that we've known for quite a while, Daniel Lopez Ridruejo, who's the CEO and co-founder of Bitnami. Just announced recently that Bitnami is being acquired by VMware. Daniel, thanks so much for joining us and congratulations to you and the team on the 'exit' as it were. >> Thank you very much, gracias. It's an honor to be here. >> Yeah so we had Erica Brescia who's the co-founder of yours on theCUBE seven years ago. Back then I was trying to figure out exactly what Bitnami was and where it fit in this whole world. Maybe you can just bring us up to speed for those that maybe don't know, and there's all these people in the enterprise space that might not know your community that the dev space knows real well, as to bring us back the who and the why of Bitnami >> Yeah Erica is my co-founder and we have been building this together over the years. It has been quite a fair ride and, we started Bitnami as an offshoot of our previous company called Bedrock in which we made software easy to install. And then we realized that a lot of what people wanted to make easy to install on Linux was Open Source software, so we started working with companies like MySQL and SugarCRM, Splunk really early on when they were only four or five people, and over time we decided to do the same thing as an Open Source project for all those other tools and projects that didn't have a way to make them easy to install. We started as Bitnami.org, we wanted to emphasize that it was an Open Source project, was never going to be a company, and it didn't turn out that way. >> All right so, we got a lot of things to cover, but help us connect the dots as to those early you know, dot org, it wasn't a company, to a company having the dev space to, we're starting down the path towards the enterprise, which seemed to be a natural fit as to what happened today. >> Yeah so going back to your original question of why we wanted to make, was always being driven. There is all this marvelous Open Source software out there that is super difficult to use for a great majority of people, and we just wanted to lower the barrier to make it easy to use, and that's what got it started. We never expected the success. It turns out we went from a hundred, to a thousand, to ten thousand to hundreds of thousands of downloads, and you know, we're super popular with developers. We have literally millions of developers using Bitnami, and as part of that evolution, we started working with the cloud providers. We drive a significant percentage of usage for Amazon, for Google, for Microsoft, that's what makes it valuable to those cloud vendors, and as the next stage of the company, we wanted to go directly to the enterprises in which we already have a lot of developers in those same enterprises, but when you go move to production, you know that it's a lot of red tape, a lot of gates that you have to go about compliance and security, and that's where we're taking the company to. >> Nine, ten years ago I stumbled over you, over your company or I guess project at that time, and it was the second best way I ever found to run WordPress. The first of course is, don't run WordPress. I'm very serious. Don't run WordPress. And I'm curious now, with the acquisition of Bitnami, what is the longer-term vision for how this fits into a more cloud-native landscape. Is it continuing to just be the, well not just but, is it continuing to be the application you get from a catalog and it's up and running, is their a containerized story, is there something else I'm not seeing? >> No, that's the core of Bitnami, and that will continue to do that. What has evolved over time is that initially you could download an installer and run it on your Mac. And then we were one of the first early adapters of AWS, so we created all these AMIs and when, you know, people were thinking that we were crazy, that Amazon was a company that sold books, but you know, what were we doing? We kind of saw where it was going early on. And then as Kubernetes came along, we were really, really early there as well, and we were one of the early partners of these around Helm. We provided a lot of the Helm charts. Right now we may have dabbled a little bit on Serverless, So whatever comes next, we will be there and our goal continues to be the same thing, which is to make awesome software available to everyone. So independently of the underlying platform, that's where we're focusing, so, the core mission is not changing, we're just omitting that, and going after the enterprise, more red hat enterprise Linux, you know, more OpenShift, more multi tier, high availabilty, more production features. >> All right so, you talk about all those pieces, and you talk about linux and everything there. I want you help connect, how does that tie into VMware and what you see them doing today because, sure Linux has been something that could live on a hypervisor for a long time, but in many ways there's been struggles in competition between VMware and them and the Linux community in the past, but, you know, we're starting to see some of that change and maybe this helps accelerate some of that change. >> Yeah I think there is a couple of companies, Microsoft and VMware, that were completely different companies than five years ago and probably the decision would have been different for us like five years ago versus what the company is today and where they're going. For us VMware is, the holy grail of acquisition is 2 plus 2 equals five, and that's hardly the, you know, there's a lot of acquisitions that don't go that way. For us it was a very thought out decision and it was, I think it was clear for us in the sense that we have a very big footprint with developers, they own enterprise IT, we wanted to go enterprise, they wanted to go into developers, they understand Open Source, they understand distributed teams, yeah. >> Maybe, I'd love to hear your insight as to that developer community, because when I walk around the show floor, you know, there was that struggle between the enterprise and the developers, and now, the storage world, we need to get CI/CD and all these things and they're like "uh, we don't know how to get there" . And over the last few years, it seems there's been a blurring of the lines, and more enterprise is embracing it, Open Source is a big piece of that, so is it, as you said, five years ago this wouldn't have happened, but now it feels like we're ready for that next step of the curve. >> Correct. And all of that is because of this standardization, that Kubernetes is allowing, you can standardize business practices, and your seeing a consolidation, the CI/CD wall. And it's like, things that used to be very exotic now is business as usual. And it's a parallel, you know, I started using Linux in '93, when there was not even a concept of a Linux distribution, you have to do all these things just to get a prompt, but over time people have standardized, you know I remember there were like, 50 or 60 Linux distributions; StagWare, SLS. And eventually, everybody converged on Red Hat enterprise Linux. I think something similar is going to happen, we're just midway there, in which you will not have KubeCon because Kubernetes will be something transparent that is boring. So, we're not there yet, but at some point Kubernetes will be boring and there will be layers on top of that where all the action is. Or will be. >> From my perspective, coming from a small startup background, it seemed to me that VMware was always one of those stodgy, boring companies I didn't have much time for and lately there've been a series of high profile acquisitions, Heptio, Wavefront, CloudFront and now Bitnami, and it's really changing, almost without me noticing, my entire perception of their place in the modern evolving cloud ecosystem. >> I think so, and that's one of the things that attracted us and I talked to Victoria about it, get to spend a bit of time with the CEO, with the people at the high level. For us it was very important. But again, one thing we haven't mentioned is that, for the most part we have been bootstrapped. We have been profitable, we only took a little money from Ycombinator when we were already profitable. So we have choices. Sometimes our BC funded peers don't have that choice, so it was a very meditated decision, and for me for these kind of acquisitions, when a much bigger company joins forces with a smaller company, the strategies need to be aligned. And to me, VMware realized that the world, a few years ago, that the world is going to be moved to cloud, the world is going to go towards Kubernetes and containers. And the acquisition of Heptio, the acquisition of CloudHealth, told us that they're serious about that and that we can fit right in and take advantage of that transformation they are going. And so far it's working really, really, really well and that's part of what made us decide to go in this direction. >> Yeah Daniel, what can you tell us about things, once this actually does close, what will that mean for the brand? What about relationships with, you mentioned Heptio? But not only Heptio, Pivotal obvously is a big player in this space. How does all of that line up? >> With Heptio and other units like the marketplace's other groups, we were already working with them before the acquisition, with Heptio, with ksonnet and a bunch of other initiatives. We're just going to double down on that, and they want to keep Bitnami, they want to keep the brand, they want to keep the team. If anything we're going to get more resources, and again, that was the fact that they didn't want to touch something that is working. We have been partners for, I think, seven or eight years. We have gotten to know each other over that time and built that trust that is needed. In a way nothing is going to change. We're going to have the same team doing the same things, we're just going to have more access to their userbase. Which is what we're going to do. We started down this path because we were raising money to build an enterprise sales force, and at some point we decided, okay, this doesn't make sense. We're going to give away all this chunk of the company to get access to the enterprise, or to build a sales force to get access to the enterprise, when we can be part of VMware and get that for free. >> You've mentioned a fair bit about what's going to change as far as you getting exposure to new customers, effectively broadening into additional markets. What does this mean for your existing customers who are, in some cases, whenever you're a customer of a small-ish company, and there's an acquisition, it sometimes is natural to be a little concerned of, do I need to find a new vendor? Do I need to find a new provider? And frankly, there's nothing else like you that I've ever seen on the market. >> No, that's a really good question. For us, what is a little bit unique is we have millions of users, but we only have a handful of customers. So our customers are AWS, Google, Microsoft, Oracle. So it was very important; VMware is already a vendor to all of these; and so far everybody is going to stay and we're just going to continue and deepen the relationship. And that's one of the things that made this attractive. So for customers, nothing is going to change. And we're just going to continue to deepen those relationships. And again, that was important. Had we gone through some of the other options there would have been a lot of very outward conversations to have and that is not the case. >> Yeah Daniel, how about the developer community itself. It's just had millions of downloads out there. We understand how some of the reaction can be. >> Yeah, everybody is like, is VMware going to be the evil company that's going to touch that? And I think so far the feedback has been extremely positive, including even Hacker News, right, which is shocking. >> And those people don't like anything. >> I've been high Hacker News since the very beginning and it can be harsh. So it was something I was monitoring how people. And so far it has been very positive and that's only not a testimony how much people like Bitnami but also again, VMware acquire Heptio and everything's great. We talk to a lot of the people at Heptio, you know, hey how are things going? How has it been? And everybody loved it there, so for us it was something that gave us a lot of reassurance that all these other companies with a lot of Open Source DNA were being successful there and gave us reassurance. Time will tell. We'll see one year from now where we are, but so far everybody that we have talked to, all the conversations have been great. >> So Daniel you have a very interesting viewpoint on this whole ecosystem, we work with all the cloud providers. Any commentary you'd give of, you talk about that midway point of maturity? Where do you see things today, where do you see them going? What do we need to fix as an industry? >> Well it's very difficult to predict where things are going I just think that at this point it's very safe to say that it's going to be a multi-cloud war. That was not like three, four years ago. It seemed like it could be a repeat of the '90s in which Microsoft own ninety-something percent of the market share. And there was a lot of things that didn't make sense. Right now at least Amazon, plus a bunch of other clouds, are viable, and if anything they are growing. So a lot of companies like HashiCorp, like VMware. Companies that support this multi-cloud environment, not all of them, but all of them are very well positioned to thrive because it's not going to change any time soon. The other thing I think that is safe to assume is, we are going to have more artifacts than ever, so companies like Artifactory, I think they will do well. As any companies have to do to do with security. We're going to have more security issues, not less. But in the long term that's as much as I can predict. >> All right, well, Daniel, thank you so much. Congratulations again, and we look forward to seeing you at VMworld. Where we'll have theCUBE there. It'll actually be our tenth year being at Vmworld. >> Awesome >> So we're excited and always happy to talk to, especially the startups some great news here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks as always for watching theCUBE.

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hola Barcelona I'm Stu Miniman and my guest host for this week is the one and only Corey Quinn, and you're watching theCUBE the leader in live tech coverage, actually the fourth year we've been doing the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon Barcelona 2019. We've got two days of wall to wall live coverage. Last year we were in Copenhagen it was outside a little bit windy and we had this lovely silk above us. This time we are inside at the Fira. We've got some lovely Cube branding. The store with all the t-shirts and the little plushies of Fippy and all the animals are right down the row for us, and there is 7,700 people here. So I have been, I did the Austin show in 2017 did the Seattle show last year 2018. We had done the Portland show in 2016, so it's my third time doing one of these, but Corey it is your first time at one of these shows. Wait this isn't an AWF show, so what are you doing here? >> I'm still trying to figure that out myself when people invite me to go somewhere "Do you know anything about insert topic here?" absolutely, smile and bluff your way through. Eventually someone might call you on it, but that's tomorrow's problem not quite today's. >> Yeah I have this general rule of thumb the less I know about something the more I overdress to overcompensate it. Oh so here's the guy in the three piece suit. >> My primary skill is wearing a suit everything else is just edging details. >> Alright, so let's set the stage for our audience here Corey. As I've said we've got the Foundation, we've got a lot of the big members, we've got some of the project people, but I'm really excited we actually have some excellent users here, because it is five years now since Kubernetes came onto the scene of course built off of Borg from Google, and as Dan Conn said in the opening key note, he actually gave a nice historical lesson. The term he used is simultaneous invention and basically those things that, you know, there are times where we argue, who created the light bulb first, or who did this and this? Because there were multiple times out there and he said look there were more than a dozen projects out there. >> Many of them open source or a little bit open as to these things like container orchestration, but it is Kubernetes that is the defacto standard today, and it's why so many people show up for this show, >> and there's such a large ecosystem around it. So you live in the Cloud world you know what's your general view on CloudNative and Kubernetes and this whole kind of space? >> Well going back to something you said a minute or two ago. I think there's something very strong to be said about this being defined by it's users. I've never yet seen a successful paradigm takeoff in the world of technology that was vendor defined. It's at some point you wind up with these companies doing the digital equivalent of here we've crafted you this amazingly precise wrench, and you hand it to a user and the first thing they say is wow it's kind of a crappy hammer, but it's at least good for a first attempt. Tools are going to be used as users want to use them and they define what the patterns look like. >> Yeah so I'll give you the counter point there because we understand if we ask users what they wanted they wanted better buggy whips so we can go faster. To compare and contrast we had done a few years ago was this openstack was user driven and it came out of NASA, and if it was good enough for the rocket scientist, it should be something we that can learn on, and Rackspace had done good and gave it to the open source community, and stepped back and let people use it. First of all openstack it's not dead it's being used in the Telco world it's being used outside of North America quite a bit, but we saw the kind of boom and bust of that. >> We are a long way passed the heyday. >> The vendor ecosystem of openstack was oh it's an alternative to AWS, and maybe some way to get off the VMY licensing, and I've actually said it's funny if you listen to what happens in this ecosystem. Well, giving people the flexibility not to be totally locked in to AWS, and oh it's built on Linux and therefore I might not want to have licensing from certain vendors. Still echos from previously but it is very different. >> Very much so, and I will say the world has changed. >> I was very involved in Eucalyptus which was a bit of a different take on the idea, or the promise of what openstack was going to be What if you had Cloud API's in your own data center in 2012 that seemed like a viable concern. The world we live in today of public cloud first for a lot of shops was by no means assured. >> Yeah, Martin Meikos, Cube alum by the way, fantastic leader still heavily involved in open source. >> Very much so >> One of those things I think he was a little bit ahead of his time on these. So Corey, one of the reasons, why are you here? You are here because I pulled you here, and we do pay you to be here as a host. You're not here for goodwill and that. Your customers are all users and tend to be decent sized users and they say Corey helps people with their Amazon bills no that's the AWS bills not the I have a pile of boxes of smiley faces on there, oh my God what did I do around Christmas time. >> Exactly >> So the discussion at the show is this whole hybrid and multi cloud world when I talk to users they don't use those words. Cloud strategy, sure, my pile of applications, and how I'm updating some of them, and keeping some of them running, and working with that application portfolio and my data. All hugely important but what do you hear from users, and where does the things like cloud and multi cloud fit into their world? >> There are two basic archetypes of user that I tend to deal with. Because I deal with, as you mentioned, with predominately large customers >> you have the born in the cloud types who have more or less a single application. Picture a startup that hits meteoric growth and now is approaching or is in the IPO stage. They have a single application. They're generally all in on one provider, and the idea of going multi cloud is for auxiliary things. If we take a step back, for example, they're saying things like oh PagerDuty is a service that's not run by one of our major public cloud providers. There are a bunch of SaaS applications like that that factor in, but their infrastructure is >> predominately going to be based in one environment. The other large type of customer you'll tend to see is one of those multinational very divisional organizations where they have a long legacy of being very data center first because historically that was kind of the only option. And you'll start to see a bunch of different popup cloud providers inside those environments, but usually they stop at the line of business boundary or very occasionally on a per workload basis. I'm not seeing people say, >> well we're going to build this one application workload, and we want to be able to put that on Oracle cloud, and Azure and GCP and AWS, and this thing that my cousin runs out of the Ozarks. No one wants to do that in the traditional sense because as soon as you go down that path you are constrained to whatever the lowest common denominator across all those things are, and my cousins data center in the Ozarks doesn't have a lot of frills. So you wind up trying to be able to deploy anywhere, but by doing that you are giving up any higher level offering. You are slowing yourself down. >> Yeah, the thing we've always been worried about is back in the day when you talk about multi vendor do we go by the standard, and then go to least common denominator and what has worked it's way through the environment? That's what the customers want. I want today if I'm the user, agility is really one of the things that seem to be top of mind. What IT needs to do is respond to the speed of what the business needs and a CloudNative environment that I look at is it has to be that lever to be able to help me deliver on the next thing, or change the thing, or update my thing to get that working. It was, so disclaimer Red Hat is our headline sponsor here we thank them for our presence, but actually it's a great conversation with open shift customers, and they didn't talk about open shift to open shift to open shift. They talk about their digital transformation. They talk about their data. They talk about the cool new things that they are able to do, and it was that platform happened to be built on Kubernetes. That was the lever to help them do this at the Google show where you were at. That was the same conversation we had whether it is in GCP or whether it was in my own data center. >> You know yes we can do it with containers and everything like that. It was that lever to be able to help me modernize and run new apps and do it faster than I would've done it in the past. So it's that kind of progression that is interesting for me to hear, and just there is not, there is this tendency now to be like oh look everybody is working together and it's wonderful open source ecosystem. It's like well look the world today is definitely coopetition. Yes you need to be up on stage and if a customer says, I need to work with vendors A, B, C, and D. A, B, C, and D, you better work with that or they will go and find an alternative, because there are alternatives out there. >> (Corey) Absolutely, and when a company embarks on a digital transformation and starts moving into public cloud, there are two reasons they are doing that. The first is for cost savings in which case (laughs), let's talk, and the other is for capability storing, and you're not going to realize cost savings for a lot longer than you think you will. In any case you are not going realize capability story if all you view public cloud is being, is another place to run your VAMS or now your containers. >> Yeah, so thank you, Corey your title in your day job You're a Cloud economist. >> I am, two words that no one can define. So no one calls me on it. >> Kubernetes it's magical and free right >> That's what everyone tells me. It feels like right now we are sort of peak heighth as far as Kubernetes goes, and increasingly, whenever you see a technology that has gotten this level of adoption. We saw it with openstack, we've seen it with cloud, we've seen it with a bunch of things. We are starting to see it with Serverless as well. Where, what problem are you trying to solve? I'm not going to listen to the answer, today that answer is Kubernetes, and it seems like everyone's first project is their own resume. Great, there has to be a value proposition, there has to be a story for it, >> and I'm not suggesting that there isn't, but I think that it is being used as sort of an upscale snake oil in some cases or serpen grease as we like to call it in some context. >> Yeah, and that's one of our jobs here is to help extract the sigma from the noise. We've got some good customers. We're going into the environment. One of the things I try to do in the open keynote is find that theme. Couple of years, for a couple of shows >> it's been service mesh is the new hotness. We're talking about Istio, we're talking about Helm, We're talking about all these all these environments that say okay how do I pull together all the pieces of the application, >> and manage that together? Because there's just, you know, moving up the stack, and getting closer to that application. We'll talk about Serverless in one of the other segments later this week I'm sure because you know there's the, okay here Knative can help bridge that gap, but is that what I need? We talk a lot about Kubernetes is how much does the public cloud versus in my data center, and some of the guys they talk to, Serverless is in the public cloud. We'll call it functions of the service if you put it in your own data center, because while yes there are servers everywhere. If you actually manage those racks and everything like that it probably doesn't make sense to call it Serverless. We try not to get into too many semantics arguments here on theCUBE. >> You can generally tend to run arbitrary code anywhere the premise of Serverless to my mind. >> Is more about the event model, and you don't get that on VRAM in the same way that you do in a large public cloud provider, and whether that is the right thing or not, I'm not prepared to say, but it's important for that to be understood as you are going down that path. >> So Corey, any themes that jumped out for you, or things that you want to poke at, at the show, for me, Kubernetes has really kind of crossed that Chasm, and we do have large crowds. You can see the throngs of people behind us, and users that have great stories to tell, and CNCF itself, you know has a lot of projects out there, we're trying to make some sense of all those pieces. There's six now that have graduated, and FluentD is the most recent, but a lot of interesting things from the sandbox, through that kind of incubating phase there, and we're going to dig into some of the pieces there. Some of them build on top of Kubernetes, some of them are just part of this whole Cloud Native Ecosystem, and therefore related but don't necessarily need it, and can play in all these various worlds. >> What about you? >> For me I want to dig a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud. I have been making a bit of a stink for the past year. With the talk called the myth of multi cloud. Where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice, and I'm holding that fairly well, but what I want to do is I want to have conversations with people who are pursuing multi cloud strategies and figure out first, are they in fact pursuing the same thing, so we're defining out terms and talking on the same page, and secondly I want to get a little more context, and insight into why they are doing that, and what that looks like for them. Is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places? Great that's fair, the same workload run everywhere, on the lowest common denominator. Well lets scratch below the surface a bit, and find out why that is. >> Yeah, and Corey you're spot on, and no surprise because you talk to users on this. From our research side on our team, we really say multi cloud or hybrid cloud. Hybrid cloud means you've got your own data centers, as opposed to multi cloud could be any of them. There's a little bit of a Venn Diagram you could do between that. >> But I am prepared to be wrong as well. I'm a company of two people. I don't have a research department, that's called the spare time I get >> when I can't sleep at night. So I don't have data, I have anecadata. I can talk about individual use cases, but then I'm telling individual company stories that I'm generally not authorized to tell. So it's more a question now of starting to speak to a broader base. >> So just to finish on the thought from out team is everything from I have all of these pieces, and they're really not connected, and I'm just trying to get my arms around through some of the solutions. Like in the AWS world we're looking at the VMware on AWS, and the outpost type of solution. That pullout or what Azure does with Azure stack, and the like, or even company like IBM and Oracle, where they have a stack that can be both >> in the public cloud and the private cloud. Those kind of fully integrated pieces versus the right now I'm just putting applications in certain areas, and then how do I manage data protection, how do I manage security across all these environments. It is a heterogeneous mess that we had, and I spent a lot of my career trying to help us break down those silos, get away from the cylinders of excellence as we called them, and we worked more traditionalist. So how much are we fighting that? I will just tell you that most of the people we're going to have on theCUBE, probably aren't going to want to get into that. They'll be happy to talk about their piece, and how they work with this broad wonderful ecosystem, but we can drill into where Kubernetes fits. We've got the five year anniversary of Kubernetes. We'll be talking to some of the people that helped create this technology, and lots of the various pieces. So with that, Corey, want to give you the final take here, before we talk about the stickers, and some of the rest. >> Oh absolutely, I think it's a fascinating show. I think that they're the right people who are attending. To give valuable perspective that, quite frankly, you're not going to get almost anywhere else. It's just a fascinating blend of people from large companies, small companies, giant vendors, and of course the middleware types, who are trying to effectively stand between in many cases, customers and the raw vendors, for a variety of very good reasons. Partner strategies are important. I'm very curious to see what that becomes, and how that tends to unfold in the next two days. >> Okay, so theCUBE by the way, we're not only a broadcast, but we are part of the community. We understand this network, and that is why Corey and I, you know, we come with stickers. So we've got these lovely sticker and partnership with Women Who Go, that made this logo for us for the Seattle show, and I have a few left, so if you come on by. Corey has his platypus, last week in AWS. So come on by where we are, you get some stickers, and of course, hit us up on Twitter if you have any questions. We're always looking for the community, and the network to help us with the data, and help us pull everything apart. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, two days of live wall to wall coverage >> will continue very soon, and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (Fading Electronic Music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Good to have you back here on theCube we are live in Boston at the Convention Center here. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls and on theCUBE we're continuing our coverage of Red Hat Summit 2019 in Boston, as I said. Joined now by Reza Shafii, who is the VP of Platform Services at Red Hat. Former CoreOS guy >> That's right. >> Stu actually has his CoreOS socks on, >> He told me. >> Today, yeah, so he came dressed for the occasion. >> Shh, can't see those on camera, John. I can't be wearing vendor here. >> Don't show it to the camera. >> Well I just say they're cool! They're cool. Glad to have you with us, Reza. And first off, your impression, you have a big announcement, right, with OpenShift. OpenShift 4 being launched officially on the keynote stage today. That's some big news, right? >> It's a big deal, it's a big deal. The way I think about it is that it's really a culmination of the efforts that we planned out when we sat down between the CoreOS leadership team and the Red Hat leadership team, when the acquisition was closed. And we planned this out, I remember a meeting we had in the white board room. We planned this out. In terms of bringing the best of OpenShift and CoreOS technology together. And it's really great to see it out there on the keynote, and actually all demoed and working. >> And working, right? Key part. >> Reza, dig in for us a little bit here, because it's one thing to say okay, we got a white board and we put things together. You know, when I looked at both companies, at first both, CoreOS before the acquisition and Red Hat, I mean open source, absolutely as its core. I remember talking to the CoreOS team, I'm like, you guys are gonna build a whole bunch of really cool tools, but what's the business there? Do you guys think you're gonna be the next Red Hat? Come on. Well, now you're part of Red Hat. So, give us a little bit of the insight as to what it took to get from there to the announcements, CoreOS infused in many of the pieces that we heard announced this week. >> Yeah, so the way I like to think about it is that Red Hat's OpenShift's roots, it started with making sure that they create a really nice comfortable surface area for the deaf teams. The deaf teams can go in and start pushing the applications and it just ensures that it's running those applications in the right way. The CoreOS roots came from the operations perspective and the system administrator. We always looked at the world from the system administrator. Yes, you're right, CoreOS had a number of technologies they were working on, etcd, Rocket, clair. I used to joke that there's a constellation of open source services that we're working on, but where is the one product? And, towards the end, right before the acquisition, the one product I think was pretty clear is Tectonic, the Kubernetes software. Now, if you look at Tectonic, the key value difference was automated operations. The core tenants of what Alex Polvi and Brandon Philips said into the mindset of the company was we're outnumbered, the number of machines out there is going to be way more than we can handle, therefore we need to automate all operations. They started that on the operating system itself, with CoreOS, the namesake of the company. And then they brought that to Kubernetes. What you see with OpenShift is, OpenShift 4, you see us bringing that to, not only the Kubernetes core, that's the foundation of OpenShift 4, so all capabilities of running Kubernetes are automated with 20 plus operators now. But you see that apply to all the other value capabilities that are on top of OpenShift as well, and we're bringing that to ISV. I was walking around and a number of ISV's have their operators as the number one thing they're advertising. So you're seeing automated operations really take hold and with OpenShift 4 being a foundation for that. >> You talk about operations or operators, you have Operator Hub that was launched earlier this year, what was the driving force behind that? And then ultimately what are you trying to get out of that in terms of advancement and going forward here? >> Right, I think it means it's worked. Going back a little bit of history on this, the operator pattern was coined at CoreOS as a way to do things on a Kubernetes cluster to automate operations. The right way. You have to expose it as a proper API, you have to use a controller, so on and so forth. Then as the team started doing that we realized well there's a lot of demand for this pattern, we started documenting it, describing it better and so on. But then we realized there's a good case for a framework to help people build these automations. Therefore we announced the operator framework at Cubeacon. I think it was a year and a half ago. What happened then was interesting, suddenly we started seeing hundreds plus operators being built on the operator framework. But, it was hard because you could see five Redis operators, 10 MySQL operators. It was hard for our customers to know where can I find the right set of operators that have the right functionality and how do they compare to each other? OperatorHub.IO is a registry that we launched together with AWS, Google and Microsoft to solve for that problem. Now that we have a way to create operators easily and capture that automated operations, we have sort of created a pattern and a framework around it, where do you go to find the right set of operators. >> It's an interesting point because if you look in the container space, especially Kubernetes, it's like, okay well what's standardized, what works across all of these environments? We always worry, I've probably got some pain from previous projects and foundations as to well what's certified and what's not and how do we do that? So, did I see there's a certification now for operators and how do you balance that we need it to work everywhere, we don't wanna have it's Red Hat's building an open ecosystem not something that's limited to only this? >> Yes. So OperatorHub.IO is a community initiative. And, every operator you find on there should work on any Kubernetes. So in fact as part of the vetting process we make sure that that's the case. And then on the certification we launched today, actually, and you can see a number of, we have already 20 plus operators that are certified. This is where we take it a step further and we work with the vendors to make sure that it works on OpenShift. It's following a number of guidelines that we have, in terms of using, for example, Rail as the basis. They work with us to run the updates through security checks and so on. And that's just to give our enterprise customers more levels of guarantees and validation, if they would like to. >> So what are they getting out of that, out of the certification system? What, I guess, stability and certainty and all those kinds of things that I'm looking for, standardization of some kind, is that what's driving that? >> It's simple, at the end of the day they got three things. They get automated updates that are pushed through the OpenShift update mechanism. So if you are using the Redis one, for example, and it's certified, you're gonna be able to update the Redis operator through the same cluster administration mechanism, then you would apply it to the entire cluster itself. You see updates from Redis come in, you can put it through the same approval work so on, so on. The second is they get support. So they get first line of support from Red Hat. They can call Red Hat, our customers and actually we work with them on that. And the third is that they actually get that security vulnerability scans that we put them through to make sure that they pass certain checks. And actually one last one, they also get Rail as the basis of the operator, so, yup. >> Reza, help bring us into the customer point of view. What does all this mean to them, what are the big challenges, how do they modernize their applications and get more applications moving along this path? >> Yeah, in this case the operator customer is mainly the infrastructure administrators. It's important to point that out. The developers will get some benefit on that in that it's self service, so the provision, but there's other ways to do that as well. You can go to a Helm chart, deploy that Helm chart, you get that level of self service automated provisioning. To go ahead and configure for example, a charted MongoDB database on a Kubernetes cluster, you have to create something like 20 different objects. And then to update that to change the charts, you have to go and modify all those 20 different objects. Let's just stay at that level alone. An operator makes that before different parameters on a yaml file that you change. The operator takes that and applies all these configurations for you. So, it's all about simplifying the life of the infrastructure administrators. I truly believe that operators, human operators, infrastructure administrators are one of the least appreciated personas right now that we have out there. They're not the most important ones, but there is a lot of pain points and challenges that they have we're not really thinking about too much. And I think OpenShift goes a long way and operators go a long way to actually start thinking about their pain point as well. >> So what do you think their reaction was this morning when they're looking, first off, the general announcement, right? And then some of the demonstrations and all those things that are occurring? Is there, do you have or are you talking to customers? Are you getting the sense of relief or of anticipation or expectation? I mean, how would you characterize that? >> Think they're falling into a couple of different buckets. There's the customers we've talked to, for awhile now, that know this stuff, so this is not super new to them, but they're very happy to see it. There's one big automaker that's a customer of us and the main human operator was telling me awhile ago that he does not want any service on the cluster unless it has an operator, this is a year and a half ago. And he kept pushing me well I want a Kafka one and I want an Elasticsearch one, and you know. And we, CoreOS, were too small to try to build that ourselves. Obviously that's not, we can't maintain a Kafka operator and a CoreOS one. Now, he's able to go to our operator APP, he's gonna be able to get a Kafka operator that's maintained by Kafka experts. He's gonna be able to get a Redis operator that's maintained by Redis experts. So that bucket of customers are super happy. And then there's another one that's just starting to understand the power of all this. And I think they're just starting to kick the tires and play around with this. Hopefully they will get to the same point as the first bucket of customers, and be asking for everything to be operator based all the time. >> Convert the tire kickers, you're gonna be okay, right? >> That's right. >> Thank you for the time. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate that and continued success at Red Hat, and, once again, good to see you. >> Thank you, always a pleasure. >> You bet. Live, here on theCUBE, you're watching Red Hat Summit 2019. (upbeat music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering IBM Think 2019, brought to you by IBM. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live at theCUBE in Moscone North in San Francisco, for IBM Think 2019. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, talking to all the top executives, top people here at IBM, getting the scoop on cloud and AI. Our next guest, Jason Gardner, Vice President of Worldwide Sales for Hybrid Cloud at IBM, manages key product, which is part of the IBM Cloud Private, big part of the announcements, big Cloud story here. It's multi-cloud, it's hybrid. Welcome back. >> It's hybrid multi-cloud. Thank you, for having me back. >> CUBE Alumni been on as early, going back as 2012. Now, one big event. >> I can't believe it's been that long. But yeah, I'm happy to be back and I can't believe I've been on theCUBE for so long. >> Talk about your new role, and you had previous roles within IBM dealing with the kind of clients and integration. Your role now is worldwide sales. You're taking this Cloud Private offering, bringing the customers, being as the linchpin for integration. Talk about what you do and some of the engagements you have. >> Yeah, previously, I was really focused in on development and offering management on, point products and how they help clients move to the Cloud. Things such as our Pure Business, our Spare Business, and now I've actually been able to move into a much more horizontal role, where I have the portfolio across the Hybrid Cloud integration side, so everything from our Websphere family, which includes IBM Cloud Private, straight to the integration challenges that that brings as well as our digital business automation portfolio. >> Yeah, I have a personal joy. Stu knows I'm fanatic about Kubernetes, and when I heard Ginni Rometty say Kubernetes twice in a CNBC interview you know it's made it. >> Yes. >> Kubernetes is a big part of cloud native containers, really now has created the connective tissue to make cloud and multi cloud viable. This is a key part of it. I want you to talk about the context of these trends and unpack this Cloud Private offering. Because it's instrumental in seems in the news. >> It is, it is. >> What is it about? >> It is, it really creates that ubiquitous layer I think that we've all been searching for. That next generation of virtualization and connective tissue as you call it. And as you begin to unpack that it really kind of starts with the rise of microservices and the need to be able to pack them very tightly into containers. That's really the birth of Kubernetes, was the ability to orchestrate those containers. So Kubernetes becomes that ubiquitous layer in there. But, IBM Cloud Private takes that and takes it to the next level, right. And, really what it is, it's the services on top of that, the cloud services which enable those containers to work together. And, it is a lot of open source capabilities such as Helm, Prometheus, Kibana and some of those core services that those microservices require in order to be able to run efficiently. >> So, Jason, we know it's a multicloud world. Everybody out there would love to say, oh yes, there's one cloud, I can simplify it. I'd like to get to a nice scalable model that's simple. But, the reality is customers choose lots of different solutions because they have different needs. The Private Cloud piece is not really well understood. I'd love you to take us inside your users. Because they say okay, I'm using Amazon, I'm using Microsoft Business Services. There are certain data things that Google has. IBM has AI and business productivity and database offerings. That Cloud Private, what are the services, what are the use cases, what are the reasons why I'm buying this and being part of my overall portfolio. >> Yeah, Ginni called it Cloud 2.0, right. 1.0 was about lifting shift, it was about cloud native, and that really got us about 20% of the way there. It's at 80%, that's the real challenge, that's really where the complication comes into play. That's really what Private Cloud is about. Because not everybody can be able to take their applications, throw them away, build cloud native, or lift and shift them. If you think of big regulated industries like banking, insurance, healthcare, government. They really need to be able to have that level of security and assurances that they need within there. And, that's really where private cloud comes into play, is those really tough, challenging problems in the industry. >> Yeah, I love that. A trend I've heard from a number of customers, you talk about them getting to containerization and multifactor services, is, step one is, I've got to modernize the platform-- >> Absolutely. >> Then I can modernize the applications on top it. Is that the trend you're seeing? >> Yeah, definitely. We've been building on microservices and modernization, it's a journey right, and it's a journey of discovery I think for a lot of clients out there. And, we'd all love to be able to say, OK this is my platform and now I'm going to work on the applications. But really, sometimes the starting point may be one or the another, and it usually comes in a space of a digital requirement, and so they begin to out modernize the application and then realize, jeez! I need to be able to manage all of this, I need to be able to deploy it all, and that's when the platform comes into play and all the other services, I should say, that come along with it. >> Stu, I think you coined the term Private Cloud. I think wasn't it? >> The true private cloud. >> True private cloud. So the private cloud, again, it's all cloud operations, so I kind of disagree on this whole point about one cloud or multi-cloud. Because I think, yes multi-cloud, but you see people use cloud for workloads, right? So pick the right cloud for the right application. So this basically says, okay, if you want to use Amazon, use Amazon if that's what you want, but if you are going to use 365, maybe use Azure. >> Yep. >> If you are going to use G Suite, use Google. You guys kind of have the business apps nailed down. >> Right. >> So If you're going to use your business apps, maybe IBM. This is your opportunity. >> This is our opportunity. >> Talk about specifically the kinds of apps that you guys will power with your cloud, because multi-cloud certainly makes sense for you guys. It's multi-cloud, you won't that portability and interoperability, but the apps that you're going to power with IBM Cloud. Talk about what they are, how-- >> Yeah, if you look at, from a language perspective over the last, jeez it's been 23 years I think, since the rise of Java, right? And 1995, when the first app servers came out. Those app servers, that is really where ore applications really run on top of. And, it's those core Java applications, that are now needing that facelift, right? They need to be able to be injected with new forms of AI, new types of integrations, new types of personalization of that digital transformation that's driving it, and that's really the core suite, right? And if I look at that core suite in there, and then what do you do to modernize a Java application, and what kind of tools are available to you. How do you then manage, how do you distribute, and how do you scale those applications. It's very important. >> What is the adoption of the private cloud or the Cloud Private product. >> Yeah. >> Talk about some of the trends, how is it being used, be specific on how customers are using it. What are some of the use cases? >> Yeah, so the primary use case is to increase the agility, lower cost on the overall managing of them. But it's the increase in the agility, which is really hard to measure. Because clients want to be able to react very fast to it. And so as they build up microservices, microservices then become independent with one another. You can then update ones, very quickly and easily. They manage and they run independently, and they scale independently, and so Cloud Private provides you with all those services to able to run those microservices as containers, but then be able to tie them together in a much more comprehensive enterprise suite. You know, a core technology like Helm, I'm waiting for Ginni to say that one on stage. But a core technology like Helm, really provides that robust, enterprise class distribution for scalability and high availability of a microservice based application. >> Jason, can you bring us inside the organization of the customers your selling to? It used to be, it was the refresh cycle. It's like OK, my X86 refresh, or you know, the budget cycles that I had. Cloud is quite a bit different. >> It is. >> Private Cloud is kind of straddling between the old world and the new world. What are the dynamics you're seeing as to who controls the purse strings? Are they moving faster to that opex model. >> You know, there's no one person who owns the purse strings on it, but it does float between the infrastructure team, knows that they need to do something different, the developers or the application development team, and really the strategy, the Chief Strategy Officer, in that IT organization is really where it's coming together. Because one thing I think that we've all learned is that developers will find the easiest, fastest way to do something. No matter what rules or policies we put down. And this is about providing them with an environment that has guardrails, for them to be able to innovate as fast as they want, use the tools that they want, that their most comfortable with. Really, it's a grass roots kind of movement into these microservices, led by the developers. But the purse strings are still held at the CTO side. >> That's always a fascinating interest, because the developers they're going to go do it, but they're not usually the ones with the budget. >> That's right. >> But when do the ops people get involved, the business people, to make sure that IT manages it, gets rid of like stealth IT? >> And a lot of clients have learned to listen to the developers, because the early days of cloud, they didn't, and developers found ways through it, no matter what. And so that's really what it's about. It's like a game of bumper cars, right? You got to make sure they stay within the ring of what's safe. And, especially in this day and age of the security requirements that are out there, it's more important today than ever before. >> Jason, can you share some data around some observations that you've noticed on trends around industry uptake or is there any patterns in terms of the customer base? Obviously, people aren't going to going to cloud operations. Just, Ginni mentioned 60/40, 80/20, the ratios. What does that all mean? And, just share the trend data around adoption and patterns? >> Probably the biggest onE in there, is the 80/20, right? That there's still 80% of the applications left in the world are still locked behind the brick and mortar. That's probably our biggest piece of our opportunity, and providing clients with a way to lift them up and be able to modernize them. I think is where the huge opportunity is. But then looking at where do they land, it's not all going to public cloud, right. So private cloud it's a huge business. I think a lot of us underestimated how large that business really is, and depending on the industry, you'll see 50/50, 60/40, 40/60 split, depending on the regulations within that industry, that country, the geography, of where they really want to go to. And, a lot of our clients are asking us for solutions around that private side, but yet be able to have the flexibility to be able to-- >> So you're seeing friction on the public cloud, mainly that's inherent from either regulatory compliance, or just technical challenges. Is that kind of the vibe? >> That's probably the first one. I think there's still that regulatory requirements of data residency, and how do I get my data to application. I can build all the applications I want in the cloud, but how do I get my data there? How do I synchronize it? My lineage of my data. So they really challenged her on that. But, then on the other side of it, is around the cost, right. And, if you wanted to rebuild all of your applications, as true cloud native, from scratch. It will take you a very long time and be very, very expensive. And so, there's also a cost element and speed. You can modernize something much more quickly, and be able to get it to that same level of service, without having to start over. >> We had Arvind on earlier, yesterday, and I want to get your thoughts on the impact of the Red Hat acquisition news, because if you look at what Open Shift is doing with Cloud Private. Arvind was saying yesterday that, Arvind Krishna, he's like, this is really enabling a lot of the acceleration for the modernization of the new cloud stuff, and keeping the legacy stuff and/or transition out on different timetables. Your thought on that? >> Absolutely right, Open Shift is going to be a critical component for our overall hybrid strategy. I'm very excited about it and really looking forward to it. And, Cloud Private and the services that I talked about, run in Open Shift today. That was part of our partnership agreement. I think that you guys were at, that Arvind talked about at that time. But, it provides the platform, for all of those traditional applications, which we've modernized. And the interesting thing is that we've actually modernized ourselves. We've modernized our middle-ware. We've modernized some of those products that are you know, 10, 20 years old. Everything from WebSphere, to MQ, to BPM. They've all been modernized in that same fashion. >> Yeah, Jason, speaking of modernization. Bring us inside you're sales force a little bit. How do they keep up, and what's the skill set that you're looking for, on your team to sell on this. You know, they need to understand Helm and Kubernetes, and all these microservice architecture, where five years ago, it was a totally different world. >> Absolutely, you know I think that if I look at a, it's not a skill, it's passion, right? It's that never give up type of mentality, I think that we look for, in a sales force and I never give up attitude really provides you with that foundation, for never stop learning, right. If anything that you've guys have noticed here over the last ten years in your guys' journey, is that this industry just changes so repidly, all the time. And, so as a sales force, you can't just acquire skills. You don't go out and hire skills. You hire people and you hire passion, and you hire people with that never give up attitude. I've been going around. We've been doing our sales kick-offs. I've done two out of the three now, so far. I tell you they are energized. They love it. They are energized about the Red Hat Acquisition. It shows that IBM really gets it. They've been telling me, does IBM really get it? And now they're like wow, we really do get it? And, they're really energized, because all of the pieces are falling into place, around this modernization, and clients, and we're hitting the timeing. >> It's time to hit that pedal to the metal, put the gas on-- >> They always say, there's no speed limit on sales. >> (laughs) Exactly. OK, first of all great, great conversation, and thanks for waiting out our journey. Stu, I would say that the salespeople got to watch all theCube videos, because all of the best content is coming out of theCube here, and great to have you on. But, quick plug, I'll give you the last word. What's the pitch, share the pitch for the Hybrid Cloud, what your team is offering? What's the, the core pitch for your customers, when you go to them? >> I think the core pitch is around modernization. It's the journey that clients are on, from application development, to how you build your apps, and how you build the microservices. How you integrate those applications, what's your API strategy, how do you move that data around securely, and then how do you manage all of those pieces together in that new modern world. And then, really looking your overall processes, and can you modernize your overall processes, add AI capabilities into that. So, it's that modernization journey. That's really what I talk to them about, and you don't have to do everything, right? Start small, start as a pinpointed piece, and we'll help you along that journey. And it becomes a journey of self-discovery, but we're there the whole way. We're a partner, that's really what it's about. >> Jason Gardner, Vice President of Worldwide Sales with Hybrid Cloud at IBM. TheCube, bringing all the data here, from IBM Think 2019. This is day three, of four days of coverage, here in Moscone live in San Francisco. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud-Native computing foundation and its ecoystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the content and the analysis, opinion, getting all the data, sharing that with you, three days of wall-to-wall coverage, we're in day three winding down, great event. Our next guest is one of the stars of the show here, original Kubernetes, a pioneer, Joe Beda, also the Kube founder at Heptio, recently sold to VMware in acquisition. Startup only what, two years old? >> Yeah, about two years. >> About two years. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Google. Great work you've done with Craig and with pioneering Kubernetes, Heptio startup. >> Yep, yep. >> Got taken off the table as you were ramping up. Congratulations! >> Thank you so much! It's been a little bit of a wild ride, I can tell you that. >> So first question for you is, I don't want to get into the whole VMware thing, we're going to hit that up in VMworld next year. But as you look at the ecosystem of Kubernetes, I mean, you've got to be looking at this sayin, "Hey, we knew this was going to be big." You guys have been running it with Borg and where that came from in the DNA. The magic wand almost was kind of passed out. Hey, this happened! It's kind of happening in a big way. What's your reaction? How do you feel at an emotional level? What's the vibe going on in your mind right now? >> I mean, I look at this and it blows my mind. I think we knew that we had a possibility with Kubernetes to do something big, we could feel it. I don't think we ever expected this, to be honest. The thing, though, that I think surprises me, and it was both about building startup and building a company, but also seeing the community grow, is that every time you hire a new person to do a startup, every time you have somebody join the community and start contributing, it's like it's another cylinder in the engine. And it really starts taking it in directions that you had no idea it was going to to go into. And so, I look around here and this is a product of a community. This is not a product of any single company, any single set of folks. I mean, you start things snowballing and interesting things happen, but it really is a group effort. >> It's so hard to do a startup. You know, I've done a lot of startups. We've done a lot of interviews with startups. It's hard. You got to start a company, you got to do all that legal work, then you've got to get the momentum, and it's capped off by the validation, certainly by VMware, who announced heavily at the VMworld, Pat Gelsinger said that Kubernetes is the dial tone. (laughs) And I'm like, okay, I guess. We were talking earlier, it's the ethernet. I've called it the TCP/IP. So, all the analogies come to this enabling kind of capability. And that's where we see a lot of the value. Where do you see the opportunities for the ecosystem to innovate. I mean, getting some clear visibility around the stability. But now value is starting to get created. What's your thoughts on value creation? Where are some areas that are ripe? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. I think we're at the point now where it's about how do we bring these technologies to new people, to new audiences, to folks who might not have heard about it, don't quite get it. How do we make this stuff more relevant to them? So we're moving out of this technology-focus phase, into this phase that's focused on solution and value that's delivered. And this isn't always about innovation and building on top. Some of it is about different ways to do it, and also just, you know, having these ideas just permeate, right? And as technologists, we build on incredibly complicated technology. We look at, say, something like AWS. If you were to approach that brand new without any idea of the history there, it would be incredibly intimidating. But it's been around long enough, it's grown organically, that everyone's like, "Oh yeah, I totally understand all that stuff." It just takes time sometimes for these technologies to become understood, to become part of the fabric of what people assume the technical skill set is. And I think that's a big part of what we're seeing starting to happen now, too. >> Joe, I want to get your viewpoint. When I think about the last ten, fifteen years, the whole discussion of hybrid cloud, multicloud, portability, even thinking about things from a VMware context, or from a cloud-computing context, it seems like we have a lot of false starts and false expectations about, you know, we've listed Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy and others who talk about the three laws of the cloud. We're not changing physics. And Kubernetes is super-important for multicloud, but portability was kind of thrown out there. I want to get you to help us tease out what it is, what it isn't, and how do you see multicloud today? >> Yeah, so I mean, first, on the topic of false starts, there's this popular narrative that, oh, it's going to be this, now this is the hot thing, now it's this. And the reality is that main frames are still around. Technologies don't disappear, it's an additive type of thing. So it's not like, say for example, Kubernetes or Serverless or machine learning, right? It's all of those things working together and I think, if you look at it in that way, it doesn't feel like a false start. It just seems like we're adding more different techniques, more technologies onto the pile. In terms of where I see this stuff going, I think multicloud and compatibility do go hand-in-hand. From the very start, we never wanted to pretend that Kubernetes was going to be this magic layer that was going to make differences between different environments disappear. What we did want to do, though, was actually find the commonalities and minimize the extra differences that didn't need to be there. And so a lot of times, when I talked to customers, I don't say, "Hey, don't use this special service in this cloud." I don't tell them that. What I do say, though, is, "If you are going to start using those things, "do it in an eyes-open type of way. "Understand the trade-offs, "understand why you're doing it" versus just willy-nilly adopting technologies cuz they look nice and shiny, and that's what you want to do, right? So I think, whether you're adopting Kubernetes, whether you're adopting a specific cloud technology, whether you're moving to cloud versus actually building automatable infrastructure on prem, make sure that you're thoughtful about how you enter those types of decisions. >> The way the feedback we hear from people here on theCUBE this week and other places as well, is, pick a problem to solve. Don't boil all of the ocean, get in there, use Kubernetes for what you think you can nail a problem on, iterate from there. That's the common theme. Now as you guys pivot over to VMware, they've been investing a lot in their strategy also with AWS, RDS is now on VMware, they'd look at Kubernetes as a great opportunity to bridge on-premises and cloud. So it's clear to see why they like it. Explain for the folks watching who are fans of you and Craig and Heptio, what's next for you guys? You joined VMware, you just closed the deal, you're principal engineer at VM where you're in the business unit side, share some of the specifics that you can on what's going to happen next. >> Yeah, I think it's too early for me to speak on sort of a grand strategy across VMware. I think I'm still mapping things out and understanding things. What I can talk about is the way that we were thinking about the market from Heptio's point of view. And every indication that I've seen that this is actually very, very compatible for VMware. A lot of the keynotes that you saw here at KubeCon Show, that adoption curve, where we're in the early phase versus the early majority, that type of thing, and I think there's some truth to that. But I also think that there's an axis to that, that actually isn't shown up there, around the different personas that you see adopt different technologies inside of the enterprise organization. And so the strength of somebody like VMware, and I think the early adopters for things like Kubernetes, are that operator persona. And we're seeing an evolution of that persona as it starts to come to grips with the world of the cloud. We're moving from a place where things are ticket-based, human intensive, to how do we move to API-driven, policy-drive types of things, right? And so that's obviously where the cloud is. But how do we take those learnings, how do we take those lessons and actually apply those things on problems? And so our goal from Heptio's point of view, and I think it's incredibly well-aligned with VMware, and an enormous opportunity, is taking the VMware-faithful, the folks who do go to VMworld, that have built careers on that solution, how do we help them move their career forward, move their positioning forward in a way that doesn't eliminate their jobs, but actually helps them be smart in a modern world where cloud is actually part of the landscape. >> We had Aparna on from Google, and you know Aparna from your Google days, and she was making a comment about these new personas, new opportunities, new jobs that are opening up based on Kube. Okay, great, we see some of that. And then we've done rift on the idea that Kubernetes also is a uplift for existing roles: system architect, Network Guy, Server Guy, and then the VMware operator that had been wearing virtual machines, this is a lift for them. Talk about what specifically is going to get them jazzed up, is it the policy knobs on Kubernetes, what's going to really appeal to people below Kubernetes and what's really going to appeal to the developers above Kubernetes? >> Well, for centralized IT within an organization, cloud has been a challenge, right? If, I'm not thinking of a specific customer, but it's not insane to think about something like a developer who wants to write an app, they have to file a ticket, it can take anywhere from two weeks to three months to get stuff provisioned, right? And they're sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting to actually get that stuff ready. Meanwhile, they take their credit card, go to a cloud, get a machine up and running within 30 seconds, and get their app shipped. So while they're waiting on that ticket, they can get that app shipped, and then they dare their manager to deny the credit card charge when it comes due. That is a challenge for centralized IT which oftentimes has not had any competition. Now, all of a sudden, they find themselves in a situation where they're competing with cloud for the hearts and minds of their own customers, for their developers. And different organizations have reacted to this in different ways. Some of them had said, we're just going to explode out IT and actually say to different business units, "You own your own destiny." But, depending on the enterprise, depending on the goals, depending on their requirements around regulatory needs, around policy, around cost controls, around mobility of developer skills across the organization, that may or may not work for them. And so, for me, the bridge forward for that centralized IT, is really one of giving them the power tools so they can actually serve their customers better in a world where cloud exists. >> Yeah. Their jobs! That's their job to serve the business. >> Well, I mean, the bar has been raised, right? And so we want to help them meet that challenge. >> Awesome. >> Joe, I want to get your thoughts on this growing ecosystem. I said in our open this morning, we've been looking for the last five years or so. Where is that independent, cloud-computing show? And sitting here with 8 thousand people, and another 2 thousand people are in the hallways or on the wait list and things like that. It's here, and there's all of these projects into multiple communities come together. How does it feel that Kubernetes, was it kind of the first domino to help tip something broader with CloudNative? >> I mean it feels really good, to be honest. I think one of the things that we saw Heptio as, and I think VMware is actually in a great position also, is to be a neutral party that really is on the side of customers as they enter this complex world where they're dancing with elephants that are the big cloud providers. And I think that there is an enormous appetite for customers to actually have trusted partners in that world. Now, with respect to the conference, I think, what I love doing is I love being on the floor here, I love talking to people, I love going to the session tracks. That's where I think the heart of this conference is. Some of the contributor community days that happened on Monday that don't get a lot of coverage, the big headlines are one thing but there really is an undercurrent of community that's happening in this conference that is really something pretty special. >> I think that's a great point, and, at least what I've seen that's contributed, you know, the Envoy Group, tomorrow there's the Operators Group, this is not a monolithic community, it's not like, look, I've been at VMworld for years. It was about virtualization and primarily a single product from a single company and everything that wrapped around it. This is not a vendor doing it, there's all of these. I talked to the people that all they care about is Helm, we talked about all these different pieces, and many of them tie into what was going on at Kubernetes, but there's just so much diversity, and it's a common ground for everybody to work together. >> And I think, this is one of the things that I think has been interesting about the CNCF is that there is no, there is an idea that we want to create a set of projects that work well together, but there also is the realization that there is no one way to skin the cat, there is no one way to solve a problem. So there is room for projects to disagree, there's room for projects to experiment, there is room for folks to try and find their audience and be successful. >> That's the modern upgrade in my mind, to, not going against the open source ethos but also innovating with it, You're balancing commercial so you just, I think they've got to apply this upstream concept called CNCF where the downstream benefits for commercialization, you can still do the open source community thing while having an impact downstream to IT and just regular developers. This is the trend we see at Enterprise when we talk to the customers, we talk to other people, IT has been outsourced for decades. Now there has to be a competitive advantage, and we have the competition thing that you pointed out. And the smart CIO CX's are bringing developers in to create a competitive advantage, and it's a new reset. And, not throwing away networks, they're not throwing away compute and storage. They're going to change it. And I think this is where the real tailwind is. Do you agree with that or what's your thoughts? >> The way I like to think about it is that, and I'm using company names here as an example, but I think there is this race between Tesla learning how to become a car company versus, say, Ford or GM learning how to become a software company, right? And that dynamic is playing itself out across every single industry. And I think there is not a CEO or CIO or board out there that doesn't realize that the way for us to be relevant in the future is to turn software into, not just a cost-center and something we deal with, but something that becomes a fundamental advantage and driver of our business. >> Every industry: media, software! We're a software company that happens to do media, with theCUBE. You're totally right, it's just like-- >> Any industry. This is why Amazon's getting into grocery stores. >> It's integration. This is a completely new horizontal dynamic with a little bit of special machine learning at the outlay. >> We're moving into a software-defined world, for sure. >> Joe, been great to have your commentary here on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on the acquisition. Super outcome, the numbers floating out there. It's pretty large, good deal. We have no comment. (laughs) >> Open source! >> Read DCSE C file. >> Open source business models are changing, but the value is still the same. Those who create the value can extract it. That's the ethos of open source, of course theCUBE as well. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.