>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, 2019. Second day of three days, wall to wall coverage. I am Stu Miniman, John Troyer is my cohost for the three days, and we've had a great schedule, but this one will be super dope, of course, 'cause it is the one, the only >> That's the right phrase to use >> Kelsey Hightower >> to bring me out. >> who is now a principal developer advocate at Google Cloud. Kelsey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Well, thanks for having me. >> All right, let's start. You did a keynote yesterday and I actually heard, not only did it rain in San Diego, people were talking about allergies. They were grabbing their tissues, eyes seemed to be tearing. You had stepped back for a little bit. When I first came into this show, we've been doing it for four years, it was, you know, Kelsey Hightower and Kubernetes almost seem to get top billing of the show. You specifically stepped back for a little bit, and you're here this week. So, talk a little bit about that piece. >> Yeah, so I stepped back to do some serverless stuff, right? So I worked on some cloud function stuff at Google, launching the ghost support for cloud functions, and really trying to understand the serverless base by being in it, and that means stepping back from Kubernetes quite a bit. So the keynote, I wanted people to have emotion. So no live demos, no slides, no speaker notes, and then just telling stories from the last six years of being a part of the Kubernetes community, and making people feel something. And I think it resonated with folks, and, of course, people got a little teary-eyed. I gave people a cover, so we just kept saying the allergies are starting to flare up in the room, and we really connected with people. >> Awesome. So you came back, which means serverless not completely taking over and obviating what we've been doing here for years. >> Yeah, I think serverless is just another tool in the toolbox, and I didn't want to miss it. So before I put it in its category, I wanted to make sure that I got super deep with it, used it myself, gave it a fair shot, and it definitely deserves a place. But I think the idea of serverless is the thing that's going to stick. This idea of eliminating as much infrastructure as possible and then putting that everywhere we can. >> I want to bring that idea of a tool in the toolbox to what we're talking about at this show. >> Kelsey: Okay. >> So, you know, Kubernetes is one of the most hottest topic at the show. The CNCF, now I mean, there's dozens and dozens of projects here. Dan Kohn, when he kicked it off, talked about Minecraft. And it's like there's that board there with all the tools, and, oh boy, which one do I pick, and how do I use it? >> How do you look at where Kubernetes fits in the overall landscape? Obviously, 12,000 people, it's really exciting. Why is there so much excitement around something that I think is really, it becomes another tool in the tool shed and baked into the platform? >> I think Kubernetes represents a problem that most people have. If you went down the Linux and then virtualization path, then you ended up with a bunch of virtual machines that you need to glue together somehow. So if you look inside of what Kubernetes has, like the scheduler, how it takes in the pain of running a workload. If you're running VMs in Linux, this is a problem you already have, so Kubernetes just resonates with almost everyone that is using virtualization. This is why it's so popular. So it fits. Now every tool in the landscape may not resonate the same way because everyone doesn't have the same set of problems around the edges, but Kubernetes is a very obvious thing to anyone that's managing more than a handful of machines. >> Well, I think that brings up an interesting question of, as companies and people assemble the stacks, right, assemble the engines out of the components, do you have any thoughts on, well, I guess we could take it from a couple of different ways. But maybe as a person coming here for the first time, representing their team, getting started, maybe not involved online with upstream Kubernetes but trying to make sense of the landscape here and all the different, the zoo of different projects. >> Lots of new people here. You talk to people, I think, what, 50% or more of the people are brand-new. People have been ignoring, rightfully so, Kubernetes for four or five years. "Maybe I don't need it, I'm good where I am." But we're at a point now where you can't ignore it. VMware's offering Kubernetes, every conference you go, where it's KubeCon or not, this is the thing they're talking about. It's just like Linux was years prior, right? It's just the thing that people are doing. So now, you're coming to see for yourself first-hand. You're coming to ask people how's it going, now that we're five years in? There's a sense of maturity, things are slowing down, the ecosystem's getting a lot more mature around it. So you almost have no choice but to be here because now it's in your world. >> All right, so, there's some people that I've been seeing online that are still looking at this a little bit skeptically, and said, "You know, we've been down this path before." You know, "Oh, everybody's involved in Kubernetes." you know, "There's my Kubernetes "versus some of the other environments." How should we think about that? 'Cause as you said, it's going to be baked into VMware when they do project-specific, and they've got a couple of ways to get you to Kubernetes. Yeah, Microsoft just announced an update. Is it an inter-operability issue? Is this the universal backplane? Do you have a good analogy as to how we should be thinking about where we are today and where we need to go so that we don't repeat the sins of the past when it was the multi-vendor mess that really didn't solve the customer's problems. >> You're going to always have multi-vendors because there's too many customers for one vendor to satisfy. That's always going to be the case, there's no way around that. But the way I look at Kubernetes now is like, take the web. Click around, webpages, link them together. And out of that, we extracted REST. People can build APIs, we build tooling on top, cloud providers built APIs to manage infrastructure. So the REST component comes out of the larger picture of the web. And when we take the larger components of Kubernetes, and we extract out that Kubernetes API, you get Istio, you get these network control plans, you get people building 5G infrastructure using that Kubernetes model. You get all the cloud providers saying, "Now, if the world's going to have "this set of APIs that are based on Kubernetes, "then I can actually build a global control plane "because I can assume that Kubernetes' API everywhere." Not just for containers, also for networking, authorization, management systems. So it's only natural that people start moving up the stack, and I expect even more panes, ever more fragmentation, if you will, because now it's so much easier to explore a new idea, even if it's only for a smaller subset of the market. So I expect it to explode. >> Yeah, one of the things we've been looking at this year is really the simplicity of the offering. You had done Kubernetes the hard way a couple of years back. We've been looking at things like lightweight Kubernetes, the K3s. How are we with that simplicity of the overall solution and making sure that Kubernetes can reach its potential to get to all of those use cases and end points that you were talking about? >> Kubernetes' job is to manage the complexity. If you need to run in multiple regions across the globe, that is a set up complexity, Kubernetes has one way of addressing it by sitting on top of all those VMs globally, and then providing a set of APIs. That Kubernetes set up end cluster is going to be way more complex than a MicroK8s, where you have a single virtual machine where you install the components on one machine, you don't deal with networking, you're not dealing with multiple nodes. That flow is super-easy. I think I did a tweet for the Canonical folks. They have a tool called MicroK8s, you just run one command, you have a Kubernetes cluster, and off you go. And that's great for a developer, but as the underlying infrastructure gets more complex, I think the overall cluster, and the components that you need in that cluster, matches the complexity. So I think Kubernetes has proven to scale up, and now you can see it's scaling down. So I think it's one of these things that's adapted to complexity, versus having to jump off of the platform because it can't meet either range. >> Now, Kelsey, we've talked a little bit about both Kubernetes as this universal API, but also being embedded, right, and being below a lot of application layer and other management-layer things, I mean, did you think about talking to our fellow technologists, right? There are some people who are going to be, we've also used the metaphor, mechanics, right? There's some people who are going to be the mechanics, but, like, everybody drives. So, as we get to this level of maturity here now at KubeCon 2019, any advice on how people should pick? Do I need to, and also online we hear a lot about, "Oh, I don't need, I don't know if I need Kubernetes. "I don't know if my particular use case right now, "boy, I don't know if I want to go there." So, I mean, how should people be looking at it? And also up scaling, should every IT and technologist and developer be working towards Kubernetes? >> Absolutely not. >> Thank you. >> If you're managing a bunch of machines, you got two choices. You could build a lot of custom tooling and build something that looks like Kubernetes, most people don't have the time to do that. So what we want to do is say, look, a lot of people are collaborating on that obvious thing that you should build to manage that. Now if I give you 80% of your time back, you should go and fill in that gap between what Kubernetes brings to the table and what your developers want to actually do. And at the end of the day, it's always been the same thing. You check in code, it should adopt the company's best practice, and I should be able to get an end point and some debugging tools. That has always been the north star, even when there was virtualization, early days of cloud. Kubernetes is no different. The thing that Kubernetes represents, though, is that you don't have to build as much glue between either your own VW ware or your pre-early cloud. Kubernetes has built all that stuff way up to this line, so maybe you actually finish that CICD part you were supposed to do anyway. >> All right, so, Kelsey, every year we try to figure out and distill down the theme of the event. A couple of years ago, the service matched really extensions were going at it. Here, there's so many different pieces, it's a little tough to kind of pin down. We talked about some of the edge simplicity use cases, security has, of course, been a discussion for a couple of years. Anything that you've distilled so far or the things that you are finding most interesting and new, kind of at the edges of this whole ecosystem? >> This whole thing is a Swiss army knife, so it depends on who's holding it. Whatever problem they have, that's the piece of the tool that they're going to make front and center. So that's what this is. And right now I think there's a lot of confusion on, do I even need all the other components in this Swiss army knife? Some people are just like, "Well, this tool looks interesting. "I don't have a problem that this tool is for." And some people are actively creating a problem so they can use the other tools in the Swiss army knife. I think the biggest thing that I've seen in the last two years is, make the new thing work the old way. So you're getting the more traditional vendors showing up and adding their Kubernetes integrations, and they're making the new thing more familiar to the people who have the existing tool. And when I look around, that's the thing that I see arise. "Hey, that firewall you were using? "We now have Kubernetes support. "That security tool you were using? "We now have Kubernetes support." The security tool works fundamentally the same, it's just now easier to adopt and maybe make Kubernetes things that are deployed in it, leverage those thing. >> So you're saying that's a good thing, not a bad thing. >> It's a good thing, but it can also be dangerous in some cases where we may get complacent a little bit, and what we end up doing is recreating the world that we tried to run away from a little bit. We try to create a little distance and maybe rethink a few of these approaches, maybe eliminate some need for some of these things. But if we get stuck in recreating the old world on top of the new thing, it doesn't really benefit anyone if we did that for too long. >> Yeah, it's interesting 'cause you talk to the enterprise and only 20% of applications are in the cloud, and if you talk about, out of my entire portfolio, how many are really new Cloud Native applications? Its much smaller than that 20%. So we know it's the long pole in the tent of modernization, but you spend a lot of time talking to customers, you're traveling the world, what are some of the best things that you're seeing out here that are helping people adopt those new environments and not just stake a place in, as you said? >> Pragmatism and leadership, if I see those two things. If there is someone that can make a decision. I see Spinnaker, I see Jenkins, I see a thousand things, I see the options. Leadership is pick one. They roughly do the same exact thing. You get someone that knows what they're doing, hires someone, get some help, make it work. And then the pragmatism is just be honest about your velocity. You might only bring in the VMs, and then you go to containers. So, this all or nothing approach never worked. You know it doesn't work. So I think when you have those two fundamental things, then you see a lot of success. And it's not about the age of the enterprise, either. There are hundred-year-old companies are making it work because they have the leadership component, and they're very skeptical, so they approach the problem with pragmatism, so they actually get to production. Sometimes faster than the startups that are trying 7,000 things in more of a reckless fashion, the whole thing catches fire. So, those are the positive outcomes that, there's so many tools now. You have your traditional vendors now with skin in the game, giving you documentation. I think right now, if you've got those two components, you're on your path to success. >> Yeah, I guess last thing, I want to get your thoughts just on this community these days. A couple of the keynote speakers today really talked about project over company, and definitely the open-source ethos is front and center at our show here. Give us your viewpoint how the community's doing and any highlight you want to share. >> So I have one more thing on top of that hierarchy, is people over projects always. And then that means that the people should be able to say, "Hey, I am not wedded to this project forever. "There's going to be a time when we have to jump off, "there's going to be a time when we have to learn "from the other communities." And if you do that, then we can actually be on the straight path. If we put the projects too much front and center I think we start to miss the boat. Kubernetes, Kubernetes, and the rest of the world is moving on. And then we look up, we've missed it, and we actually didn't even get to contribute to the new thing. So I think the biggest part about this community is that hopefully we keep the thing going where we keep reminding people, it's people over these projects. And I think in my keynote, I was trying to address the idea that we're just kind of pacesetters. You come in, you contribute, all contributions are welcome, documentation, code, or leadership, and then sometimes you got to jump back out and allow someone else to come in and set the pace and let the ecosystem become the marathon and let it keep running. >> All right well, Kelsey, thank you so much for sharing with our community. I tell ya, I've had countless stories of people over the years that have talked about how they've reached out to you, you've helped them along the way, and I know everybody in this ecosystem really appreciates everything that you've helped to move this to where we are today. >> Awesome, thanks for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Super dope coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon continues. We'll be right back, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic beats)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the live Cube coverage here, three days at Seattle's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It's a conference put on by the Linux Foundation. Cube's been there from the beginning, breaking down all the action. 8,000 people, doubling attendance from the last one, now global, on a global scale, seen great traction in China and other areas around the world. It's about the cloud global. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, our next guest, Kelsey Hightower with Google. Former code program share, now out in the wild on his own, super dope, playing with all kinds of new technology, it's great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Proper you said the word dope, by the way, so congratulations there. I'm an attendee, I still have a keynote on Thursday but I do get to enjoy the floor like everyone else. >> So what's new, so you're now, again, there's a lot of pressure now every year. It's more and more people here, so it's a lot of pressure to kind of get all the action packed, but the growth has been pretty phenomenal. You've been looking at serverless, we saw some tweets, again you mention it's super dope, serverless is. You've got serverless, you've got a lot of stuff going on within the CNC app, you've got Kubernetes at the core. A lot of people like calling it the Kubernetes stack or the CNCF stack. Is it really a stack, is it really more of an operating model because there's stacks involved but how do you describe it, because this is a point of clarification. I mean, Kubernetes isn't necessarily a stack. Is it, how do people use it, what's the current state? >> I think when people say stack, you think about the LAMP stack, right? Linux, Apache, MySQL, it's a way of pre-packaging these ideas. This is something that worked for me, it may work for you, you say that enough times and then you say things like the Kubernetes stack. It's a quick, shorthand for Kubernetes and building on top of it. I think from the engineering perspective, when you look at Kubernetes and all the gaps that the CNC app is trying to fill these days, it's all this stuff you're probably building yourself, someone else is building it, and now we kind of have an outlet now. If you're working on a service mesh like list was, you have an outlet to give it to the rest of the world, open governance, and get some contributors. I think what we're seeing now is that hey, CNCF is kind of the place people go to figure out is someone building the thing that I've already started building and can I stop and just download that and go off? >> It's been very successful open source community, obviously, it's been end user leverage, it's been great and it's been open source, community led. Not so much vendor led, but vendors have been participating, so it's been great, but now as Kubernetes is going mainstream, the rise of Kubernetes is undeniable. No one can really deny that. Other end users are now coming in either to participate or to consume Kubernetes. How is that going in your mind? What's going on in the landscape, because people want multicloud, they want hybrid, they want choice. How are end users coming into the ecosystem to consume Kubernetes and the variety of goodness around it and what's going on there? Can you give some color around that option? >> I think regardless of the industry buzzwords like multicloud and hybrid and all that, Kubernetes is good on its own. It solves a lot of problems that your previous tools didn't solve, so people are gravitating towards it regardless in that direction. When you start to talk about portability, yes, it's nice to have two different environments and have the same tools work in a similar way between those environments, that's working well. The people that started three years ago that were doing it themselves, they're finding value and treating that as a service. We saw this happen to DNS, e-mail, so people are saying maybe the value isn't running it myself, so now you kind of see the vendor ecosystem understand what the value is. For a lot of the cloud providers, it's running Kubernetes, patching it, updating it, upgrading it, so that you can go focus on the other parts on top. That's where I think we are as an industry, and then there's gaps to fill, so that's where you see things like native, people building CI-CD tools on top, that's just where the new opportunities are so I think we've kind of matured. People kind of know what Kubernetes is, they know where their value line is for Kubernetes, now they're looking for their partners or vendors or community to just layer the new stuff on top. >> Kelsey, you bring up a great point there because understanding that line of what I should do myself and what I have to do versus what I can buy, consume as a service, is really tough for people, you know. I always say, ask IT departments, what do you really suck at? Because there's somebody else that probably does it better. A year ago, when I talked to users at this show, they were really downloading stuff, putting their things together, and when you asked them why, it was well, the Azure stuff hasn't matured. It just released, Amazon, I'm not sure where they're going with it. It feels like a lot has changed in the last year. You did Amazon the hard way a little over a year ago. What has changed over the last year, you know. >> We saw this with Linux, right? >> Are we ready for that, yeah. >> In Linux everyone use to build their own Linux distro, you took pride in it, using Gentoo and Slackware, and then you're like, I'm tired of that so you go get Red Hat or Ubuntu and call it good, and then you go focus on the other things. Naturally, Kubernetes is early project, has lots of gaps, you can fill those gaps by gluing together open source yourself, but now most of the managed services fill in the gaps by default. You click a button in GKE and a thing comes up, it's secure, has most of the pieces you need, it's integrated, you're like alright, I'm done with that part. >> The other thing, we talked a year ago. There's lots of companies here that are involved in Kubernetes. We've got over 70 that are compliant, and then you've got the service providers. From what I hear, it's people aren't trying to differentiate with Kubernetes and that's probably a good thing. It's something that's going to be baked into the platform, it's something you're going to consume with the other services that I offer, what do you say? >> If you make it different, then it won't work. >> Right. >> It'll be a different thing, so if you make it too different then you lose most of the benefits that we're all talking about here. The ability to learn a set of abstractions once, kind of like we did on Linux, if you start changing the system calls on Linux, then it's not Linux anymore, it's a different thing. >> Just to clarify though, if I'm running in one cloud that has their Kubernetes and I want to go to another, is it similar enough? Can I make that move? Do I need a vendor-independent version? >> So I think up to this value line I've run this container, ship the log somewhere, give me a way to secure access, that's pretty standard. Give me a load balancer. What isn't standard is how do I do CI-DC on top of that, that's not standard. There's different opinions on how to do that. If I'm in Google Cloud, we have IEM one way, Azure has IEM a different way, and same thing for Amazon. There's things around networking, security, that are going to be different based on the environment you're in. Same for on-prem, and that's where you start to look for help. If I go to Google, I'm going to use GKE maybe instead of running it myself on just a bunch of VMs, so that's where you kind of see that little divide. >> Is that going to be custom work, that's a great point, security for instance, we'll just pull that out there. Is that going to automate and be seamless or is that going to be a work area that's always going to have to be differentiated or coded or? >> So for example, we have the big vulnerability recently in Kubernetes world, right? >> It's a big CVE, it affected everyone running Kubernetes. That's a thing, as a vendor, for us GKE people, we upgraded automatically for them and said hey, there's a CVE, it's going to be really scary when you read about it but hey, you're patched. We've taken care of you, so I think people will still look for that relationship. Will it always be custom? At the app level, that is a different story. When you run your container and you want to access the things in your environment, so if you're in Google Cloud you may want to talk to Spanner, you're going to need an IEM set of credentials. That's a little out of scope of Kubernetes, so that's going to be integration work that the provider will do. >> So the holy trinity of computing industry has always been storage, network, and compute, and it changes certainly with cloud and all the goodness that comes out from serverless and whatnot, so containers is interesting. We always love containers but I've heard conversations recently where it's like hey, I want to treat containers not as a first class citizen because it doesn't meet my security boundary. I'm going to put a VM around that and run that under the covers with say, Lambda. Is that feasible, is than an option? I've heard talk about it, is anyone doing that? Is that an alternative, is this going to introduce new elements? >> Let's put it right, in Kubernetes by defaults we chose to build on top of Docker. Industry momentum, great developer workflow, but you're right, it made a security trade off. We know VMs are a much tighter security boundary that people are comfortable with. In that world, at that time, they were too slow for what we needed to happen. Thanks to Intel and others who pulled the thread of let's make VMs faster. Recently you heard the announcement of Firecracker, right, it's part of a derivative from the Chrome VM and that thing is optimized for these kinds of workloads, containers and serverless workloads. Now we go from 10, 20 seconds to hundred milliseconds. Now it makes sense to probably have this become an underlying thing. Now that we have the speed, maybe people say hey, we can maybe take the security without sacrificing the performance. >> That's the trade off. >> Pulled on the thread, you mentioned Firecracker. There's still this tension between what's happening in Kubernetes and serverless. We saw Knative is a hot topic point. It's probably natural that there's some tension there because it's like oh wait, why do you need to learn any of this stuff because if serverless will just make it as a service and make it easy and you don't need to learn all that container stuff and everything, what do you say? >> If you're a Kubernetes user, if you really think about the very broad definition of serverless, meaning I'm not managing the database, I'm using a managed database, serverless database. Storage, I'm using S3 or Google Cloud storage, serverless. Your load balancer, also serverless. So most people in the Kubernetes ecosystem, networking, serverless, storage, serverless, their database, serverless. The only thing that you can say isn't serverless is this compute component, everything else is. Now people are looking at serverless as this spectrum. How serverless are you? If you're on-prem and you buy a server and you rack it and install Kubernetes, you're less serverless, you're probably not serverless at all, no matter what you do. Now, if you put a lot of work in, you can probably put a serverless interface on top. This is what native is designed to do for people. Maybe you have an organization that supports multiple businesses inside of your org. They may not know anything about Kubernetes. You just tell them hey, put your code here, it will run, oh, that feels serverless. You can provide a serverless experience. The delta then becomes what can we do between a container and a function, so the foundation of my keynote is exactly that. What does it mean to take a container and put it into Lambda? What do you have to change? In my presentation, I don't even read write the code. There's a small shim between the two worlds because you're already using managed services around it. We're not talking about throwing away Kubernetes and then starting over our entire architecture. We're swapping out the compute layer. One is a subset of the other. Lambda is about events and functions, Kubernetes is about container and run it however you want. You want to run it when an event comes in, that's native. You want to run it as a batch job, run it as a job. You want to run it as a long running service, run it as a deployment, so that's all we're really talking about here. When we break it down, you're just talking about compute. >> You talk a lot about automation in the CI-CD areas, that differentiation where the value is. In a world as automation goes faster, what does Kubernetes look like when it becomes automated away? Because I don't want to manage anything, why even have managed Kubernetes? It should just automatically, you mentioned the patching. In an automated world, is Kubernetes just running under the covers, how does Kubernetes look down the road in your mind, in terms of when automation comes in? >> I've been in this game maybe over 15 years and one thing holds true: most developers want to focus on the business logic. We hire them because that's their skillset. When they check in code, it would be really nice if you can take it from there and get it where it needs to be. That's been the holy grail. We see it in mobile, you build an app, you put it on the App Store, Apple gets it to every device on the planet, done. Now it's the server side turn to do this. Whether you're doing serverless functions, Kubernetes, VMWare, or Linux, if you have CI-CD in front of any of that, the developer can still have the same experience. I check in code and you're picking a different deploy target. If you did that five years ago, and you understood it, and you were using, let's say maybe Mesos or just VMs, you bring in Kubernetes, you don't even have to change this part of the equation. This is why I tell most people, just focus on this endgame. My keynote last year was about this is the endgame because this is your coacher, this is your change management process, this is your discipline, and this is just a target where that compute goes. >> Alright, we've got two minutes left. I want to get your thoughts and share with the audience who's not here, a big waiting list, I know there's some lobby con going on all around Seattle, people flew in. Great place too to actually have some good lobby con meetings around the lobby area. So what's happening here, in your mind's eye, now you're not in the throes of all the events, you're kind of in the wild here with us, everyone else. What's the top story, what's going on, what's the vibe, what are you extracting out of all this activity as a top story, top level stories here? >> I think everyone's finding their place. If you're a security vendor, you kind of know where your line is, right? I've got this Twistlock shirt on. They want to plan a world where they need to integrate closer to the developer workflow, not just on the infrastructure side. If you're selling load balancers, service mesh is a thing, where do you fit in? The lines are getting a lot clearer. Kubernetes is starting to say maybe we should stop here. Maybe service measures should take it from here and that's where Istio comes in. Traditional vendors can now play in this well-defined space. On the storage side, what are you integrating? Now we have the storage interface, like the container storage interface. Now, if you're a net app, you know where you fit into the puzzle. You don't need to have your own Kubernetes distro. Two years ago, everyone was trying to come out with their own Kubernetes distro so they can actually have an anchor. Now you're like, ah, now I know where to play and now we also know what's missing. After years of doing this, people look back and say there's a lot of stuff missing. It's OK now to go create something new. >> It's a clear visibility into the landscape. What about the impact to end users? What is notable in your mind in terms of highlights, impact to end user organizations really going through this quote digital transformation, which is very cloud-based of course, but they're certainly changing and impacting, what's your thoughts on the end user? >> We're using some of the same words now. Forget the technology piece, now we can all start to talk about the same things, so when we say container, we kind of now are talking about the same thing. When we start to talk about sidecars, whether that's a service mesh, Envoy sidecar, or something that adapts your existing code to the new world, now that we're using the same language, we can actually talk. Traditional enterprise can talk to the startups and have a meaningful conversation. >> That's awesome, any other observations here in terms of the size of the show? Got a lot more activity, feels a little bit like re:Invent, I'm bumping into people, swimming through the crowds, the swag's hot. >> It's 8,000 people here and it feels like there's more users that know nothing about Kubernetes so even though we're about five years in, it reminds me of when we were just getting started. >> Lot more work to do but great, congratulations on all the work you've done Kelsey. Really appreciate you taking the time every year to come on theCUBE. We love having you on, great commentary, great keynotes, very entertaining. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Awesome, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier, Cube here with Kelsey Hightower telling us about all the breakdown of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the beginning of the cloud tsunami is happening, certainly changing businesses, changing open source, it's changing, it's on a global scale. We're here with coverage for three days. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

(upbeat orchestral music) >> Hello, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here at our Palo Alto studios. I'm joined with Kelsey Lemaster who's Tax Partner at Goodwin. This is theCUBE signal. Kelsey, thanks for coming in. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. >> So, tax partner. Obviously, lot of things going on. Apple's bringing back cash with the United States. Big news, $380 billion. Tax reform under President Trump seems to be spurring. NASDAQ hit an all time high. Business is booming. Kind of good, good tail wind for business. But really the hot topic that I want to drill down with you in this segment is have a conversation about the ICOs. >> Yeah. >> Cryptocurrency, it's insane. It's super exciting. If you're under the age of 30 and if you're not actually so excited to get into this unregulated, uncontrolled, well some say controlled market. It's just people are going crazy. A lot of opportunities, a lot of fraud, a lot of action around building businesses around it. So, you're in the middle of it. What's going on? Give us a take on then ICO. How many ICOs you guys doing, all right. What's Goodwin's number up to now? How many ICOs you got? >> Yeah, so the number we talk about within the firm is about 40 active ICOs. That's probably not precise but it's more or less that number. You know, every day we talk with existing clients or new clients that want to go through an ICO process, and we advise them the best that we can. There's securities laws issues which people are aware of. That's not really my expertise but in the tax world -- >> Well, Grant Fonda, he's coming in next. But we've had a conversation with him. >> Right, right. >> The securities issues and this, but there's huge tax consequences. >> Yeah, so there are a lot of tax consequences. They're unusual and things that people don't expect when they're raising money, what they view as raising money through an ICO process. Cause typically when you raise money from a venture capitalist or from investors, people who will buy securities in your company for cash or property, that's usually tax free to the company. And I mean, that's been traditional law for many, many years. Problem is in an ICO, what you're selling usually is a digital asset of some sort, a token which often is a right to obtain some service on a platform that may or may not exist yet. And the tax characterization of raising capital for that kind of asset or property or service probably does not qualify for the exception. It normally qualifies when you sell stock or securities. So, it's basically taxable revenue to companies. >> So, let's drill into this, have that conversation about tax. Cause a lot of people I talk to, entrepreneurs or newbies, either new entrepreneurs or seasoned entrepreneurs, even the seasoned entrepreneurs look at the tax consequences and go, "Wow, this is crazy! I don't understand it." And it seems like the tax providers, you guys are one of them there's a bunch of other firms out there that can help with different price points all across the board. Their learning, their training wheels are on too. So, people are learning, running, tripping, falling. It seems to be that from my perspective. And it's a real, real rapid accelerated pace. It's almost like the dot com bubble but fast forward it feels like with an entire new infrastructure of corporate governance. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is pretty crazy. So, tax is a big one. And the dollar signs could add up big time if you're a company and you need tax advice cause there's so many scenarios. What is the current state of that market? With tax providers, the tax consequences, is it as thorny and hairy? And how are you guys unpacking it? >> I think you're exactly right that a lot of us are learning together about the technology, about the business terms, the deals. Those are evolving. The tax law is what it is. It has really not caught up to any of this. The IRS issued a notice in 2014 that tells you how cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether and Dash and some of those others are taxed to individual investors but that's it. That's all we've heard from the IRS. So, a lot of us as practitioners are trying to figure out how to apply traditional tax law principles to this brand new, technological sort of device or way of raising capital. And in some instances, the answers are clear. And in others, they're not. There are a lot of square peg round hole problems that a lot of us are trying to work through. And as you said, we're doing it at a very rapid pace, real time, clients are not really waiting for us to figure out every nuance of tax law and how it's going to apply. They're just doing their ICOs. And so, there are a lot of situations where companies will do an ICO and raise, maybe this hasn't happened lately as much but at least last summer, companies would raise hundreds of millions of dollars in an ICO without really getting any significant tax advice. And the basic rules in this area, as I had mentioned, If you raise capital by issuing tokens, it's probably taxable revenue. So, if you start up as a normal corporation where you're going to build a platform, you're going to spend some money to build it, and all of a sudden you raise $200 million. Well, if you can't spend all of that money in a year, you're going to pay tax. And last year, the corporate tax rate was 35% federally. Now, that's been reduced on under the tax reform. But say you raised $200 million dollars last year and you effectively couldn't spend much more than a couple million dollars. You could have a tax bill at the end of the year of $70, $80 million dollars which nobody was expecting. You know, companies are trying to structure around and avoid -- >> It's hard to spend $200 million in one year. >> Kelsey: Yeah, exactly. >> You really got to go crazy, go on boondoggle. No but this is an important point. So, let's get down to that. So, the cash proceeds coming in, obviously the utility token, that's taxed right out of the gate. >> Yeah, there are some areas of uncertainty there. And there are positions. I mean, there are alternative ways of viewing that. Probably the right way of viewing money coming in, we say money but usually it's Ether or Bitcoin, right? So, we take the fair value of what comes in. And if it's $200 million, in a utility token context, that's probably going to be viewed as revenue for future services. Because, by having the tokens, the individual holders will be allowed to participate in your platform and get your services. So, the services income that's taxable. Now, you may be able to defer some of it for up to one or maybe two years. It depends. You're going to have to recognize all of it for tax purposes within two to three years max. And you know, people have talked about, "Well, can I just wait and see what happens and not pay any tax on this income?" And there are some sort of doctrines that you might look to one's called the open transaction doctrine where you don't really know what's going to happen. In a lot of these cases, the ICO proceeds have to be given back if the platform never gets built. So, people have talked about, "Well, can I use what's called open transaction, and wait and see? And if I build the platform, then I'll take the income in in that year in the future but not now." Personally, I think that's a losing argument. And my view is the IRS, when they start looking into this, they're going to really view this as all just services income. And you might have one or two years to spread it out, but you're going to have to pay tax on it. >> It sounds like there's a mix and a confluence between accounting and finance and tax law. Because you've got timing issues, that's revenue recognition. You mentioned services with tax practional view. What is the line? Where is the absolute, out of bounds in ICO tax policy? If you could lay it out. I know there's a gray area that your people are working through and might have a position and lean towards a certain direction based upon what they're doing. So, I can get that. But where should someone look in saying that might not be in the know in the taxing. Don't do this. What are the things that they shouldn't be doing? Obviously, fraud. We know that's ... >> You don't want to do tax fraud, for sure. I would say, in general, it's going to be risky to take a position that, if you raise a bunch of money in a utility token ICO, if you take the position that that's not revenue and you somehow view it under the open transaction doctrine, for example, I think that's a risky position. >> John: Why? >> Just because I think that it's inconsistent with the law and the open transaction doctrine space. Normally, when you receive money and it's basically yours, you have a claim of right over it, that's taxable income to you. Even if you might have to somehow give it back in the future. So, I think that would be a risky position to take. Another thing that we've heard about a lot of companies doing is, you know, for awhile everybody wanted to set up a foundation in Switzerland. I'll set up a foundation in Switzerland, they'll issue the tokens, it's all tax free because it's a foundation. I think there's ... I'm trying to remember. There's an ICO company that recently got in trouble for this because they were trying to take the funds out of Switzerland and use them for personal use. But any time I hear someone talk about setting up a foreign foundation, my antenna go up. I think that -- >> You think that's a red flag. >> I think that's a major red flag. Most of these companies that are doing ICOs, probably don't really have the kind of purpose or business that really fits with a foundation. I mean, foundations are tax exempt, charitable type entities. Like The Ethereum Foundation. That to me sounds like a foundation, right? It's not there to profit in any particular business. >> John: It's not a business hiding as a foundation. >> Kelsey: Exactly. That's a great way to put it. I think there for awhile, people thought that I could hide my business in a Swiss foundation and never pay tax. And I think that's a major red flag. >> Okay, let's talk about the Cayman Islands, Switzerland, there's places to domicile or locate your business for tax reasons. And some people, there's play books out there on what to do. And it evolves. It's a moving train for sure. But what problem are we solving with the tax? Can you just elaborate on what is the core problem to be worked on with respect to taxing, the tax consequences in the ICO crypto market? >> Kelsey: Right. So, from the company's perspective, the core problem is what I was mentioning where, when you raise all this money through an ICO, the most likely treatment of that if your raise it into a U.S. corporation is that it's just taxable income. And maybe some of it's taxable this year and the rest is taxable next year, but it's going to be taxable to that corporation pretty quickly. And corporations don't want to pay tax. I mean, that's an age old problem. So, what people are doing and are still doing is there are structures where you can set up a subsidiary in a foreign jurisdiction like Switzerland, Cayman Islands. This is not a foundation, this is a normal subsidiary. And if you get the intellectual property moved into that subsidiary in an appropriate way, and there are rule around that, and then you have substance in that subsidiary where you have employees in that jurisdiction who are helping to develop the IP. Then if you do everything right, and then you sell the future services out of that subsidiary and you sell the ICO tokens out of that subsidiary, you may get some ability to defer U.S. tax until you actually take money out of the subsidiary and repatriate it to the U.S. So, that's what -- >> It's a lot of work to set up a subsidiary. >> It's a lot of work to set up a subsidiary. >> And it's costly. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> Is it worth it? >> Yeah, so prior to the tax reform bill at the end of last year, if you could do it all right, and there are a lot of issues with getting it right and complications and complexity, But if you could do all of that, and there are a lot of companies that did, then yeah, I think there are good positions for deferring tax. Which, you know, on a $200 million ICO, that's deferring $80 million dollars in tax until some indefinite period in the future. >> There's not many $200 million ICOs. >> Not many ... Right. >> Most of them are in the five to 20, 20 to 60 range. Million. >> Yep. So, I think now that we're in -- >> Still a good chunk of change. >> Kelsey: Yeah, a good chunk of change. And so, post tax reform, the tax rates last year were 35% corporate federal income tax rate. Now, they're 21%. So, there's been a huge reduction in corporate income tax rate in the U.S. So, that I think coupled with the smaller size of the ICOs is going to drive fewer companies to want to set up these offshore structures because, one, it's a smaller amount of tax liability that they're dealing with. And two, because you're raising less money it's not too difficult to spend $5 million -- >> So, pretend I'm doing an ICO. So, I say, "Oh, I'm going to do an ICO." Well, I know that I could maybe fetch $20 million might be the range. Or say I get lucky, say I do 30. I say to myself, "Okay, can I spend $30 million in two years?" Probably, yeah. But it's not so much spending money. I want to get your reaction to this. It's not just spending the money to get the tax law set. It's can I get to revenue. So, can I hit the fly wheel for critical mass in a revenue model. Which, now, a new dynamic is 2018 seems to be the year of we were looking for real deals not vapor deals. White paper and raise money. How does that work? So, if I say, "Hey, I know with $20 million in two years I can get to cash flow positive break even." What's the tax consequence on that? Is that a good deal to do? >> Yeah. So, once you turn net profitable for tax purposes you'll start paying taxes in the U.S. And so, if the idea is I'm going to raise $20 million on an ICO in January 2018, and I'm going to spend $20 million between now and the end of 2019, you can probably, you have to model this out with your accountants, but you can probably match up the $20 million you received this year with the $20 million of expense you spend between now and the end of 2019. And once that zeroes out then you probably won't pay too much tax on the $20 million you receive now. Then once you flip to net positive, right? So, you've spent the 20, took the 20, now you're at zero and you start earning income -- >> But that's a real business. >> That's a real business. And that's going to be taxed like any other business. And now you're in a much lower U.S. tax rate environment of 21%. That's probably a fair deal. >> This is the business model question that everyone's asking. Can I get, use the cash to build a business this is now the conversation in the venture community. It's the conversation in the entrepreneurial circles. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> How to do it. Not just go to the trough and take as much down as you can. Which pretty much everyone's trying to do. That's up though. Not many people doing that. >> Kelsey: Yep. >> I mean, Signal's got a big ICO coming. They were in the billions. But are you advising clients to stay in the U.S. If they don't have to go to Cayman's? What's the current state of your research note or tax note to clients? >> Kelsey: Yeah. I think this you might have different views from different practitioners. My personal view is that if it's a relatively small amount that you're raising and you expect to be able to spend it down within that one to two year period, I tend to advice clients to keep it simple, stay in the U.S. Because there are a lot of ways that you can screw up a Cayman structure or Swiss structure. And usually these companies are working incredibly hard to build their platform. >> It's also distracting. >> That's my point. Exactly. The benefit is uncertain. And it may not be much of a benefit at all. And it's probably much more important that you succeed with your business than for you to save what may or may not be a small or large amount of tax. >> So, you guys are learning on the fly, which is great. And this is a market ... It's a huge wave. Everyone's getting their surf boards and getting out there on this big wave. And it's super exciting. What are the practitioners circles, your peers, as you guys huddle on this in the industry, what is the general rule of thumb that you guys are applying? I know Goodwin's a great firm. You guys have done some great work. You're conservative but yet aggressive which is a good balance here. I think some firms won't even touch an ICO. Maybe too risky for them. But you guys take a good line there. You're pushing the envelope. What's the rule of thumb in the practitioners circles? Where's the standards evolving? What's your reaction that? >> This is probably not a super helpful answer. I don't think there are standards. I mean, this is a space that barely existed eight months ago, and now we're doing 40 ICOs at a time. So, it's a very fast-paced evolving space. We just had tax reform literally two weeks ago. I'm on an advisory group with the Ethereum Network Foundation, and it's a bunch of tax lawyers in New York and out here, and we talk every couple of weeks. Just to kind of figure out what we're doing. And there are a lot of things we talk about but I wouldn't say there are really any standards that have come up. There are other ways that people are implementing ICOs that didn't really exist six or eight months ago. >> John: Like what? >> Which you'll probably talk about with Grant to some extent. But you could just go out and have your tokens ready and sell them as a token sale ICO. We have a lot of clients that want to raise the money before they have their tokens built. They just have the white papers so they will sell SAFTs, which are a Simple Agreement for Future Tokens. But you basically agree you'll give me your Ether now and I promise I will give you tokens in the future. And that's a SAFT. Now, there are versions on that where we see investors kind of hedging their bets like, "Well, I don't really know if you're going to be successful with the platform, so what I really want to do is I'll give you money now and I want an instrument that kind of gives me flexibility to either take tokens or equity. So, you see these instruments, like one's called a SAFE, a Simple Agreement for Future Equity. Which you see in normal financings But with a dash "t" on the end of it. >> John: We're going to have pipes. We're going to have SAFE. We're going to have all this stuff going on. >> So, there are all these acronyms coming up. And there are different versions but some of those versions might give you better positions on bringing in the money now and waiting to figure out if it's going to be taxable. >> John: What have you learned? You've got ICOs under your belt. You guys are doing good work over there. Relatively new. What's the big learnings that you've walked away with, so far? And what's still in front of you? >> Yeah, I think what I've learned is just, for me personally, it's very interesting to see how these traditional tax concepts which are simple in the abstract really apply in very unexpected ways to an ICO. And the things we've been talking about on the company side is a big area there. I've also focused a lot on if you're an investor and you're participating in an ICO, odds are you're not paying cash. You're probably paying in Ether or Bitcoin. And if you've held those other cryptos for a long time, and let's say you bought Ether at $10 and you're trading it in now at $1,000 in an ICO. Well, you probably also have gain cause you've just exchanged your Ether. So, now you have $990 in gain for every Ether that you send in. And you know, there are ways to try to manage that for the investors. But that's one area that's been a surprise for investors something we've been aware of but it's something I've kind of thought about and learned that in a lot of these situations there are tax consequences not only for the company but on the investor side. So, on both sides of the table there are tax consequences. And people are often surprised by that and everybody's catching up. >> Kelsey, great to have you on. Take a minute to end the segment. Just share a little bit of the work that Goodwin's doing. You guys have a tax practice. You're head of it over there. What's some of the work you've done? Do the plug in. >> Kelsey: Yeah. So, in this space we do our work with a lot of clients on ICOs. We're working with a lot of traditional venture funds that are dipping their toe in and are reviewing ICOs that they may invest in. So, we look at it with our investor hat and with our company hat. We've also helped clients that are thinking about doing tokenized funds where they will raise capital into a venture fund but they'll do it by issuing their own tokens. So, those are very interesting structures in and of themselves. We've really kind of embraced this space and worked really in just about every way that you see these companies taking shape. We've helped them and helped the investors. >> And of course, you got funds of funds going on now. I saw a couple of decks been circulating around. Funds of funds, you've got token funds, funds of funds. This is like a new asset class. >> It's a whole new world. >> I mean, unregulated, uncontrolled, controlled probably by a few people. I mean, pretty wild. >> Yeah, yeah. >> John: Having fun? >> It is, it's been a blast. >> Kelsey, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Kelsey Lemaster, partner at Goodwin on the tax side. A lot of work. I'm sure he's busy. It's complicated. And they're learning and people are being successful in ICOs. And again, one of the big things is the tax consequences. Check out Goodwin. They've got a great firm over there. Kelsey, thanks for spending the time coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier. This is CUBE Conversations in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat orchestral music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering KubeKon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to our live exclusive coverage of the CloudNative Conference and KubeKon, put on by the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconAngle Media. My co-host Stu Miniman, we're here breaking down all the action in the tsunami of open source developers, a renaissance of software development. As you know I've been talking about our next guest. We're excited to have Kelsey Hightower, who's the co-chair of the committee here for the program for this awesome conference that's exploding, but is also a staff engineer at Google, known in the industry as a very active participant. Kelsey, great to have you on. >> Awesome, happy to be here, feel like I've made it now. >> Well, not really, you make it every day on Twitter, we follow you, I mean, you've been an active voice, and it's been fun to watch this community. We've been present at the creation of KubeKon, and we've been watching the evolution, really kind of, the, it's like jello that kind of forms in the refrigerator. A couple years ago, you saw it come together, containers, microservices, the drive or the tailwind for now Kubernetes orchestration opportunity, it's changed the game. What is the bottom line? How is Kubernetes, because, everything was all about containerization, that was going to change the world, but it kind of did, but it's evolving. What's so important about Kubernetes? >> I think Kubernetes is really an actual thing you can use that takes all the ideas we've been working on for the last 20 years, and just gives us a new starting point. So, less about changing the game, but actually making the game available to everybody, right. So, we always talk about containers as this revolution, but you think about containers as more like, let's take VMs and make them faster to use, shrink them down, and then the configuration management world of deploying those things, Kubernetes wraps all that hard-to work into a single thing, and if you start there it feels like you just leapfrog where you were. >> Kelsey, I want to ask on that, so much we get excited about, you know, the cool little tool, but it's about the patterns, it's about what I can build with it. When I look at this community, you know, that boring infrastructure stuff is important, but it's about building the applications and what I can do with it that we seem to really see coming out of this event. >> Yeah, Kubernetes represents the experience of like the Red Hats, the CoreOS's, the Googles of the world into a thing you use. So when I talk about Kubernetes, is like when we solve a new problem, just like in Linux, it rolls back into the platform, but it covers this big problem set that almost anyone writing software has, and I think this is why the traction of Kubernetes is so big so fast. >> So many successes, I mean, I just love watching the tech evolution. Uber, Lyft, Netflix, building scale software on open source. And there are a lot of success stories. Two things jumped out at me in the keynote. Pluggable architectures and service meshes, two dynamics that are pretty instrumental and part of it. It sounds intoxicating and it's cool, but then if I'm just a practitioner out there, and like, all the other stuff I'm used to is hard, what about security and storage? So, there is a lot of other things that are important to customers, the blocking and tackling, storage networking, whatever, and then new things are coming to the table. So you've got new vocabulary, new concepts, combined with the existing, pre-existing, old guard concepts like storage, networking. How does that, how do you connect that? So, for the person who's running IT, or the CIO or the person doing technical architecture in a large, big IT department or company, they got to grok this. How do they figure it out, how do you dissect it? >> So the problems didn't change. Your app takes input, does something, produces output. About 30 years in the making now, that doesn't change. Kubernetes doesn't change that, containers doesn't change that. So I think all this stuff, if you look at what you've been building your whole career, all the bash scripts, all the tools that you brought in, their whole goal was to let you focus on building those applications. We've taken all of those things, realized what the patterns were, so if you look at Kubernetes and you lay out OS on top of all the storage, the compute and the networking and just says hey, here's a new set of primitives, and we're going to make it easy to consume those. And then the next level on top of that, security, is inherently baked in for the most part. So, I used to work in finance. When you look it and say, what's running? Most people can't answer that question. Not easily, or with a straight face. In Kubernetes, we have a declarative object that tells you, these are the things running, they were started at this time by this person. That's what you get by default, even though we don't talk about it as a security primitive, it totally is. >> How, hold on, so declarative continues innovation and integration, how is, why is that important? Does that speak to the distributed nature of it? I mean, why is declarative piece so important? >> So, distributed, I think a lot of times people have been dealing with distributed systems for a long time without understanding how to actually deal with the patterns. So we've just been doing it badly. Once you add more than one machine to your stack, you now have a distributed system. But we've been able to deal with this with like the meet cloud, through a bunch of people at it, right. And everyone just deals with their subsection of the servers. Now we're just laying a thing that lets you treat it like one, single machine, that's how we now start to think about this new problem. So, once you start to have that kind of, those primitives at your disposal, it just changes the way you tackle this particular problem. So, I'm not sure that this is like a whole new mind shift required. It's just that now you can just rebase, right. Like with the mobile phone, you're not necessarily writing apps at the very low level anymore, you're writing way up here with a bunch of new abstractions. >> So you brought up security hits. You know, one of the hot button topics, you know there's the low level, like, wait, do I put it in a VM, or do I do it at the container level, you know, what do you see as kind of the state of security in this space. What do we still need to do? >> There's two levels of this, right. There's the security in my app, so no matter how great Kubernetes gets, no matter how great we do at the very low level of like, this container shouldn't do these things, you still have this layer where your app will set requests from your users, and more than likely, that's where your problems are going to be. No one's doing brute force anymore, I'm just going to come in, on the port that your security team opened, and I'm going to abuse your app, because there's probably some hidden behavior that you are unaware of. So that level of security, we hope that that industry starts to have more people focus at that real value layer, than the stuff down here. So Kubernetes may take care of this down here, so we talk about the declarative piece. I know that this is what's running on these machines, and I can be assured of it, you can actually assert things, and that's part of security. Is it working the way you intended it to work? >> So it decouples security, is what you're saying. Do it, keep it at the declarative level, infrastructure, let the app guys fend for themselves, or is that. >> It's more it's like, let's make it easy to do the right thing. Kubernetes doesn't solve all the problems, but the problems it does solve we make security just be a built-in primitive. >> That's a good argument, it should solve its own problem, not try to do too much. >> But the pattern's now, we start talking about security, if you think about Istio, that goes a little bit higher up the security stack, it also takes a declarative approach. So when you say only these apps can talk to each other, you can declare that, and let the system do the enforcement rather than people. >> Okay I got to give you kind of the question on demographics shift in the developer community here. Obviously the growth is big, the numbers are here, better than all the other events combined. How do you break down the, if you had to draw a line in the sand, kind of infrastructure developers, configuration management, provisioning, all that stuff, to kind of pure app developers who say, hey, I'm devops, I don't really, I'm just want serverless, I want a full pool of resources, all that stuff's taken care of. How would you kind of, 60 40, 30 to 70, how would you, because we've got a lot of new people in here. What's the numbers in your mind? Just guess. >> In my mind I would probably say, this movement has about 70% of people who identify themselves as I'm a developer, I really want a different set of primitives so I can move on. If you look at the last maybe five to ten years where you've been brought into devops, you now have been exposed to infrastructure, and if you're going to be exposed to infrastructure, you want this kind of infrastructure, and not what you had before. And I think the ops people took a little longer. They were like, ah, I don't know, this just looks like something that doesn't solve my problems, or it's only for startups. Now we're starting to see that it'll work for almost any workload, if you understand what Kubernetes is trying to do >> It's hard to parse through the developer definition. >> Well, I mean, look it's 4,000 people here this time, right. We started with 300 people, maybe 500, and now we're at 4,000. You're starting to see everyone say all right, Kubernetes has a spot for me, here's how I contribute and leverage the platform. >> Kelsey, what do you say to people that look at this environment and say it's too complex. There's layers and layers, and I learn one piece, and it's changing constantly. This opportunity, threat, you know-- >> Here's the thing, everything is life is too complex. Anything you don't understand is too complex, okay. But if I go to your company and say, how long will it take me to learn all of your systems? Years, probably. Not everyone knows everything, so I think all these things by their very nature are complex. But if you think about what Kubernetes does, it at least takes all that complexity and gives it an API. You can now reason about it. So if you take the time to learn Kubernetes, all of this stuff from how do I deploy my app, to how we manage the hardware, at least has a defined API for the first time. It isn't going to be random from corporation to corporation, we're now aggregating the complexity and giving it a name. >> In your mind, how you would you define a high-quality pluggable architecture to leverages the goodness of Kubernetes. What does that look like, how should someone kind of check their, checksum their code, if you will, look at it and say okay, that's a pluggable architecture? What does it look like? >> So Kubernetes, if you think about it, the whole thing is extensible. So when people talk about the complexity, it's because there are a lot of moving pieces. So it was designed to leverage its own API since day one. So if you want to add a new scheduler, the thing that does, where does this application run, our current scheduler uses the Kubernetes API to do that, you can bring in your own, and Univa's a good example from two years ago, adding their own scheduler to Kubernetes. If you want like a TLS certificate from Let's Encrypt, there's a very obvious way that you would do that in Kubernetes. So our whole platform is API-driven from the outset. >> John: And the benefit of that is integration, right? >> Integration, extensibility, like, one thing that has always plagued our industry is, you buy this big software package, you want to do something custom, and now you're screwed. Now what you have is, we expect it to be extended, and your technology partner of choice will be able to extend it in a way that you can actually upgrade the thing. >> All right, so slightly different area. Kubernetes now, there's what, 42 certified partners out there. Will anybody make money on it? I come in saying, I don't think it's directly, I think it more like the cloud platforms, the other platforms. What's your take on the whole business aspect of this? >> I think it's kind of like Linux. How many people make money on Linux. I think even the people that do make money on Linux, it's the support, it's the service, and I think Kubernetes sets the stage for technology partners. You can't just sell me Kubernetes and walk away. You have to give me Kubernetes and envision how my business will extend on top of it. So, I want to do machine learning. Kubernetes is a great platform for doing machine learning. The value is above that, with the machine learning and all that other stuff. What's your take on the dynamic of all contributors here. I know joining Google, one of the reasons if I remember right from reading, you know, it's just, their participation in open source. Microsoft, big on open source, Adrian Cockcroft was in the keynote this morning, talking about AWS's participation. What your take? >> Honestly if you're a big provider, the value is not proprietary software for you. I'm in a cloud provider, we sell CPU cycles. If you want to use Mesos to spin those CPU cycles, that's great. We happen to believe in Kubernetes, so we provide that based on our experience. So to me, Kubernetes is much more part of our experience, than it is something just, we're all here trying to compete in the market. So, that's why I think people find it valuable, it solves problems that you have and share amongst your peers. >> What's your advice to app developers? Because the impact seems to be obviously to the value creation is going to be on solving problems in a way, new creative way, and again, we're predicting in theCUBE that we're going to see a swing back to the craftsmanship of software development. I mean Agile's great, and it kind of took that craftsmanship, but it de-risked it because you could make it run faster. But we're seeing a renaissance around craft, artisanship. Not just UI, I'm talking about real value. Style change, cultural impact, that's in a value opportunity. Your thoughts? >> When you talk about craftsmanship, the thing that we always look at when craftsmanship, we always talk about how long it takes to do something. I made this by hand. This was aged for 50 years before we drink it. And I think what we're doing now in the enterprises, we don't have time now to focus on the craft, I need it by Friday. And I also got to figure out the infrastructure first. So when you get things like Kubernetes, and then you layer on platforms like serverless and these PaaS's that sit on top, now you can actually focus on craftsmanship. Let me get this library right. Or, if there's another company that has already figured it out, and they've taken 10 years to get that library perfect, I get to actually use their hand-crafted piece in my hand-crafted piece, and then we start to get to the actual visions. So, I think the key missing element today is time. These platforms get you your time back, then you can actually invest in that craftsmanship. >> All that heavy lifting around redundant stuff that you shouldn't have to do, I mean, hell, I'm old, I remember how we used to have to do our own graphics libraries, now it's like, the artisanship is coming back. I 100% agree with you, but this is an opportunity that no one's yet monetized because it had never existed before, at this level of speed, reliability. >> They're monetizing, you're seeing the business monetizes. So remember, I don't necessary think that the vendors, the traditional IT vendors will be the one that monetize this, it's going to be the Netflixes of the world, the people that have an idea and they to market and then within two years, they have this large control of the market, because now they look at it and say, start with Kubernetes, grab Prometheus, grab these pieces that have been handcrafted by a large community that cares, and we're just going to focus on my business piece. That's who's cashing in. >> The value is shifting, the value is shifting. >> Kelsey, you mentioned time. First of all I want to say thank you for giving us some time and this community. I've seen so many examples, people are like, Kelsey Hightower gave me a call and talked to me for 10 15 minutes, you know, I'm nobody, podcasts, writing, everything else. How do you keep on about it, how do you look and see kind of this community continue to grow? >> Honestly you got to be, I'm a people person. And people are like, no, no, you work at a vendor, you're super biased. It's like, no, I am actually a people person >> You work at a vendor? >> Yeah, exactly. So for me, the people are first, because these people helped me get to where I am today, and I'm super appreciative of it. So when I get a chance, someone DMs me on Twitter and says, hey, Kelsey, I'm trying to reinvent my career. If I'm busy, I say call me. And I pick up the phone and say hey, how are you doing? Here's what worked for me. I'll listen for a while and say hey, here's my professional opinion, and I don't actually mind when other people do well. And I think a lot of times you want to shine by ourselves so much that we don't want to give away the secret sauce too early, because then I might be able to shine. I actually find it very enjoyable if I helped you with your talk, and you go and you rock the stage, and you go back to work and you get promoted, and then you tell me, hey, I really appreciate that. I found the ability to say you know what, you win, I win. >> You know, pay it forward in community is critical, that is a great example. More people should do it, congratulations. Paying it forward is all about selflessness. >> But it feels good when you do it. People don't understand, it feels good when you're around people that also feel good. >> You're so selfish with your selflessness. >> There you go (laughs). >> All right, final question for you. By the way, everyone should be like that because that's what communities do, good, thriving, robust communities help each other, they might be a little bit cocky but that's swagger, I like that, but, helping people's key. You have some good swagger, we appreciate your work on Twitter. My final question, your talk. What are you going to be talking about?6 What's the keynote like? Give a preview. >> So the preview is that I was going through the release notes of Kubernetes, and it's actually boring. 1.9, if you look at what we're shipping, it's all about stability, it's all about delivering the promises we made years ago, they're finally becoming V1 now. That's about it. There's nothing that I'm going to change in my cluster because of 1.9, and that's the major feature. We've been talking about getting infrastructure to become boring, and when I can look at a new release of Kubernetes and not freak out that I have to go change a bunch of stuff, we've finally done it. We've done the part that we're designed to do. So what I want to do is say hey, if Kubernetes is boring, where does the excitement live, and what does it look like? So I'm going do a lot of live demos of here's what it looks like when you're doing it correctly from my point of view, based on experience. >> Boring is calm, boring is reliable, the action is on top >> There you go. >> All right. Kelsey Hightower, thank you so much, it's been a time. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and sharing your insights and commentary. You'd be a great CUBE analyst, we'd love to have you on anytime. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman here at CloudNativeCon KubeKon live in Austin, Texas. Back with more live coverage after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, beautiful cloud community, and welcome back to AWS reInvent. It is day four here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. My voice can feel it, clearly. I'm Savannah Peterson with my co-host Paul Gillin. Paul, how you doing? >> Doing fine, Savannah. >> Are your feet about where my voice is? >> Well, getting little rest here as we have back to back segments. >> Yeah, yeah, we'll keep you off those. Very excited about this next segment. We get to have a chat with one of our very favorite analysts, Keith Townsend. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Savannah Page. I'm going to use your south names, Savannah Page. Thank you for having me, Paul. Good to see you again. It's been been too long since CubeCon Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Well at that beautiful lisp, love that. Keith, how's the show been for you so far? >> It has been great. I tweeted it a couple of days ago. Amazon reInvent is back. >> Savannah: Whoo! Love that. >> 50, 60 thousand people, you know? After 40 thousand, I stop countin'. It has been an amazing show. I don't know if it's just the assignment of returning, but easily the best reInvent of the four that I've attended. >> Savannah: Love that. >> Paul: I love that we have you here because, you know, we tend to get anchored to these desks, and we don't really get a sense of what's going on out there. You've been spending the last four days traversing the floor and talking to people. What are you hearing? Are there any mega themes that are emerging? >> Keith: So, a couple of mega themes is... We were in the Allen session with Adam, and Adam bought up the idea of hybrid cloud. At the 2019 show, that would be unheard of. There's only one cloud, and that's the AWS cloud, when you're at the Amazon show. Booths, folks, I was at the VMware booth and there's a hybrid cloud sign session. People are talking about multicloud. Yes, we're at the AWS show, but the reality that most customers' environments are complex. Adam mentioned that it's hybrid today and more than likely to be hybrid in the future in Amazon, and the ecosystem has adjusted to that reality. >> Paul: Now, is that because they want sell more outposts? >> You know, outpost is definitely a part of the story, but it's a tactile realization that outposts alone won't get it. So, you know, from Todd Consulting, to Capgemini, to PWC, to many of the integrations on the show floor... I even saw company that's doing HP-UX in the cloud or on-prem. The reality is these, well, we've deemed these legacy systems aren't going anywhere. AWS announced the mainframe service last year for converting mainframe code into cloud workloads, and it's just not taking on the, I think, the way that the Amazon would like, and that's a reality that is too complex for all of it to run in the cloud. >> Paul: So it sounds like the strategy is to envelop and consume then if you have mainframe conversion services and HP-UX in the cloud, I mean, you're talking about serious legacy stuff there. >> Keith: You're talking about serious legacy stuff. They haven't de-emphasized their relationship with VMware. You know, hybrid is not a place, it is a operating model. So VMware cloud on AWS allows you to do both models concurrently if you have those applications that need layer two. You have these workloads that just don't... SAP just doesn't... Sorry, AWS, SAP in the cloud and EC2 just doesn't make financial sense. It's a reality. It's accepting of that and meeting customers where they're at. >> And all the collaboration, I mean, you've mentioned so many companies in that answer, and I think it's very interesting to see how much we're all going to have to work together to make the cloud its own operating system. Cloud as an OS came up on our last conversation here and I think it's absolutely fascinating. >> Keith: Yeah, cloud is the OS I think is a thing. This idea that I'm going to use the cloud as my base layer of abstraction. I've talked to a really interesting startup... Well actually it's a open source project cross plane of where they're taking that cloud model and now I can put my VMware vsphere, my AWS, GCP, et cetera, behind that and use that operating model to manage my overall infrastructure. So, the maturity of the market has fascinated me over the past year, year and a half. >> It really feels like we're at a new inflection point. I totally agree. I want to talk about something completely different. >> Keith: Okay. >> Because I know that we both did this challenge. So one of the things that's really inspiring quite frankly about being here at AWS reInvent, and I know you all at home don't have an opportunity to walk the floor and get the experience and get as many steps as Paul gets in, but there's a real emphasis on giving back. This community cares about giving back and AWS is doing a variety of different activations to donate to a variety of different charities. And there's a DJ booth. I've been joking. It kind of feels like you're arriving at a rave when you get to reInvent. And right next to that, there is a hydrate and help station with these reusable water bottles. This is actually firm. It's not one of those plastic ones that's going to end up in the recycled bin or the landfill. And every single time that you fill up your water bottle, AWS will donate $3 to help women in Kenya get access to water. One of the things that I found really fascinating about the activation is women in sub-Saharan Africa spend 16 million hours carrying water a day, which is a wild concept to think about, and water is heavy. Keith, my man, I know that you did the activation. They had you carrying two 20 pound jugs of water. >> Keith: For about 15 feet. It's not the... >> (laughs) >> 20 pound jugs of water, 20 gallons, whatever the amount is. It was extremely heavy. I'm a fairly sizeable guy. Six four, six five. >> You're in good shape, yeah. >> Keith: Couple of a hundred pounds. >> Yeah. >> Keith: And I could not imagine spending that many hours simply getting fresh water. We take it for granted. Every time I run the water in the sink, my family gets on me because I get on them when they leave the sink water. It's like my dad's left the light on. If you leave the water on in my house, you are going to hear it from me because, you know, things like this tickle in my mind like, wow, people walk that far. >> Savannah: That's your whole day. >> Just water, and that's probably not even enough water for the day. >> Paul: Yeah. We think of that as being, like, an 18th century phenomenon, but it's very much today in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. >> I know, and we're so privileged. For me, it was just, we work in technology. Everyone here is pretty blessed, and to do that activation really got my head in the right space to think, wow I'm so lucky. The team here, the fabulous production team, can go refill my water bottle. I mean, so simple. They've also got a fitness activation going on. You can jump on a bike, a treadmill, and if you work out for five minutes, they donate $5 to Fred Hutch up in Seattle. And that was nice. I did a little cross-training in between segments yesterday and I just, I really love seeing that emphasis. None of this matters if we're not taking care of community. >> Yeah, I'm going to go out and google Fred Hutch, and just donate the five bucks. 'Cause I'm not, I'm not. >> (laughs) >> I'll run forever, but I'm not getting on a bike. >> This from a guy who did 100 5Ks in a row last year. >> Yeah. I did 100 5Ks in a row, and I'm not doing five minutes on a bike. That's it. That's crazy, right? >> I mean there is a treadmill And they have the little hands workout thing too if you want. >> About five minutes though. >> Savannah: I know. >> Like five minutes is way longer than what you think it is. >> I mean, it's true. I was up there in a dress in sequence. Hopefully, I didn't scar any anyone on the show floor yesterday. It's still toss up. >> I'm going to take us back to back. >> Take us back Paul. >> Back to what we were talking about. I want to know what you're hearing. So we've had a lot of people on this show, a lot of vendors on the show who have said AWS is our most important cloud partner, which would imply that AWS's lead is solidifying its lead and pulling away from the pack as the number one. Do you hear that as well? Or is that lip service? >> Keith: So I always think about AWS reInvent as the Amazon victory lap. This is where they come and just thumb their noses at all the other cloud providers and just show how far ahead they're are. Werner Vogels, CTO at Amazon's keynotes, so I hadn't watched it yet, but at that keynote, this is where they literally take the victory lap and say that we're going to expose what we did four or five years ago on stage, and what we did four or five years ago is ahead of every cloud provider with maybe the exception of GCP and they're maybe three years behind. So customers are overwhelmingly choosing Amazon for these reasons. Don't get me wrong, Corey Quinn, Gardner folks, really went at Adam yesterday about Amazon had three majors outages in December last year. AWS has way too many services that are disconnected, but from the pure capability, I talked to a born in the cloud data protection company who could repatriate their data protection and storage on-prem private data center, save money. Instead, they double down on Amazon. They're using, they modernize their application and they're reduced their cost by 60 to 70%. >> Massive. >> This is massive. AWS is keeping up with customers no matter where they're at on the spectrum. >> Savannah: I love that you use the term victory lap. We've had a lot of folks from AWS here up on the show this week, and a couple of them have said they live for this. I mean, and it's got to be pretty cool. You've got 70 thousand plus people obsessed with your product and so many different partners doing so many different things from the edge to hospital to the largest companies on earth to the Israeli Ministry of Defense we were just talking about earlier, so everybody needs the cloud. I feel like that's where we're at. >> Keith: Yeah, and the next step, I think the next level opportunity for AWS is to get to that analyst or that citizen developer, being able to enable the end user to use a lambda, use these data services to create new applications, and the meanwhile, there's folks on the show floor filling that gap that enable develop... the piece of owner, the piece of parlor owner, to create a web portal that compares his prices and solutions to other vendors in his area and adjust dynamically. You go into a restaurant now and there is no price menu. There's a QR code that Amazon is powering much of that dynamic relationship between the restaurateur, the customer, and even the menu and availability. It's just a wonderful time. >> I always ask for the print menu. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. You want the printed menu. >> Look down, my phone doesn't work. >> Gimme something I could shine my light on. >> I know you didn't have have a chance to look at Vogel's keynote yet, but I mean you mentioned citizen developer. One of the things they announced this morning was essentially a low code lambda interface. So you can plug, take your lamb dysfunctions and do drag and drop a connection between them. So they are going after that market. >> Keith: So I guess I'll take my victory lap because that was my prediction. That's where Amazon's next... >> Well done, Keith. >> Because Lambda is that thing when you look at what server list was and the name of the concept of being, not having to have to worry about servers in your application development, the logical next step, I won't take too much of a leap. That logical first step is, well, code less code. This is something that Kelsey Hightower has talked about a lot. Low code, no code, the ability to empower people without having these artificial barriers, learning how to code in a different language. This is the time where I can go to Valencia, it's pronounced, where I can go to Valencia and not speak Spanish and just have my phone. Why can't we do, at business value, for people who have amazing ideas and enable those amazing ideas before I have to stick a developer in between them and the system. >> Paul: Low-code market is growing 35% a year. It's not surprising, given the potential that's out there. >> And as a non-technical person, who works in technology, I've been waiting for this moment. So keep predicting this kind of thing, Keith. 'Cause hopefully it'll keep happening. Keith, I'm going to give you the challenge we've been giving all of our guests this week. >> Keith: Okay. >> And I know you're going to absolutely crush this. So we are looking for your 32nd Instagram real, sizzle hot take, biggest takeaway from this year's show. >> So 32nd Instagram, I'll even put it on TikTok. >> Savannah: Heck yeah. >> Hybrid cloud, hybrid infrastructure. This is way bigger than Amazon. Whether we're talking about Amazon, AWS, I mean AWS's solutions, Google Cloud, Azure, OCI, on-prem. Customers want it all. They want a way to manage it all, and they need the skill and tools to enable their not-so-growing work force to do it. That is, that's AWS reInvent 2019 to 2022. >> Absolutely nailed it. Keith Townsend, it is always such a joy to have you here on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us >> Savannah Page. Great to have you. Paul, you too. You're always a great co-host. >> (laughs) We co-hosted for three days. >> We've got a lot of love for each other here. And we have even more love for all of you tuning into our fabulous livestream from AWS reInvent Las Vegas, Nevada, with Paul Gillin. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(gentle music intro) >> Okay, we're back. We're live here at theCUBE and at VMworld, VMware Explore, formally VMworld. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Three days of wall to wall coverage, we've got Vittorio Viarengo, the vice president of Cross-Cloud Services at VMware. Vittorio, great to see you, and thanks for coming on theCUBE right after your keynote. I can't get that off my tongue, VMworld. 12 years of CUBE coverage. This is the first year of VMware Explore, formerly VMworld. Raghu said in his keynote, he explained the VMworld community now with multi-clouds that you're in charge of at VMworld, VMware, is now the Explore brand's going to explore the multi-cloud, that's a big part of Raghu's vision and VMware. You're driving it and you are on the stage just now. What's, what's going on? >> Yeah, what I said at my keynote note is that our customers have been the explorer of IT, new IT frontier, always challenging the status quo. And we've been, our legendary engineering team, been behind the scenes, providing them with the tools of the technology to be successful in that journey to the private cloud. And Kelsey said it. What we built was the foundation for the cloud. And now it's time to start a new journey in the multi-cloud. >> Now, one of the things that we heard today clearly was: multi-cloud's a reality. Cloud chaos, Kit Colbert was talking about that and we've been saying, you know, people are chaotic. We believe that. Andy Grove once said, "Reign in the chaos. Let chaos reign, then reign in the chaos." That's the opportunity. The complexity of cross-cloud is being solved. You guys have a vision, take us through how you see that happening. A lot of people want to see this cross-cloud abstraction happen. What's the story from your standpoint, how you see that evolving? >> I think that IT history repeats itself, right? Every starts nice and neat. "Oh, I'm going to buy a bunch of HP servers and my life is going to be good, and oh, this store." >> Spin up an EC2. >> Yeah. Eventually everything goes like this in IT because every vendor do what they do, they innovate. And so that could create complexity. And in the cloud is the complexity on steroid because you have six major cloud, all the local clouds, the cloud pro- local cloud providers, and each of these cloud brings their own way of doing management security. And I think now it's time. Every customer that I talk to, they want more simplicity. You know, how do I go fast but be able to manage the complexity? So that's where cross-cloud services- Last year, we launched a vision, with a sprinkle of software behind it, of building a set of cloud-native services that allow our customers to build, run, manage, secure, and access any application consistently across any cloud. >> Yeah, so you're a year in now, it's not like, I mean, you know, when you come together in a physical event like this, it resonates more, you got the attention. When you're watching the virtual events, you get doing a lot of different things. So it's not like you just stumbled upon this last week. Okay, so what have you learned in the last year in terms of post that launch. >> What we learned is what we have been building for the last five years, right? Because we started, we saw multi-cloud happening before anybody else, I would argue. With our announcement with AWS five, six years ago, right? And then our first journey to multi-cloud was let's bring vSphere on all the clouds. And that's a great purpose to help our customers accelerate their journey of their "legacy" application. Their application actually deliver business to the cloud. But then around two, three years ago, I think Raghu realized that to add value, we needed- customers were already in the cloud, we needed to embrace the native cloud. And that's where Tanzu came in as a way to build application. Tanzu manage, way to secure manage application. And now with Aria, we now have more differentiated software to actually manage this application across- >> Yeah, and Aria is the management plane. That's the rebrand. It's not a new product per se. It's a collection of the VMware stuff, right? Isn't it like- >> No, it's, it's a... >> It's a new product? >> There is a new innovation there because basically they, the engineering team built this graph and Raghu compared it to the graph that Google builds up around about the web. So we go out and crawl all your assets across any cloud and we'll build you this model that now allows you to see what are your assets, how you can manage them, what are the performance and all that, so. No, it's more than a brand. It's, it's a new innovation and integration of a technology that we had. >> And that's a critical component of cross-cloud. So I want to get back to what you said about Raghu and what he's been focused on. You know, I remember interviewing him in 2016 with Andy Jassy at AWS, and that helped clear up the cloud game. But even before that Raghu and I had talked, Dave, on theCUBE, I think it was like 2014? >> Yeah. >> Pat Gelson was just getting on board as the CEO of VMware. Hybrid was very much on the conversation then. Even then it was early. Hybrid was early, you guys are seeing multi-cloud early. >> It was private cloud. >> Totally give you props on that. So VMware gets total props on that, being right on that. Where are we in that journey? 'Cause super cloud, as we're talking about, you were contributing to that initiative in the open with our open source project. What is multi-cloud? Where is it in the status of the customer? I think everyone will agree, multi-cloud is an outcome that's going to happen. It's happening. Everyone has multiple clouds and they configure things differently. Where are we on the progress bar in your mind? >> I think I want to answer that question and go back to your question, which I didn't address, you know, what we are learning from customers. I think that most customers are at the very, very beginning. They're either in the denial stage, like yesterday talked to a customer, I said, "Are you multi-cloud, are you on your multi-cloud journey?" And he said, "Oh we are on-prem and a little bit of Azure." I said, "Oh really? So the bus- "Oh no, well the business unit is using AWS, right? And we are required company that is using-" I said, "Okay, so you are... that customer is in cloud first stage." >> Like you said, we've seen this movie before. It comes around, right? >> Yeah. >> Somebody's going to have to clean that up at some point. >> Yeah, I think a lot, a lot of- the majority customers are either in denial or in the cloud chaos. And some customers are pushing the envelope like SMP. SMP Global, we heard this morning. Somebody has done all the journey in the private cloud with us, and now I said, and I talked to him a few months ago, he told me, "I had to get in front of my developers. Enough of this, you know, wild west. I had to lay down the tracks and galleries for them to build multi-cloud in a way that was, give them choice, but for me, as an operator and a security person, being able to manage it and secure it." And so I think most customers are in that chaos phase right now. Very early. >> So at our Supercloud22 event, we were riffing and I was asking you about, are you going to hide the complexity, yes. But you're also going to give access to the, to the developers if they want access to the primitives. And I said to you, "It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too." And you said, "And want to lose weight." And I never followed up with you, so I want to follow up now. By "lose weight," I presume you mean be essentially that platform of choice, right? So you're going to, you're going to simplify, but you're going to give access to the developers for those primitives, if in fact they want one. And you're going to be the super cloud, my word of choice. So my question to you is why, first of all, is that correct, your "lose weight"? And why VMware? >> When I say you, you want a cake, eat it and lose weight, I, and I'm going to sound a little arrogant, it's hard to be humble when you're good. But now I work for a company, I work for a company that does that. Has done it over and over and over again. We have done stuff, I... Sometimes when I go before customers, I say, "And our technology does this." Then the customer gets on stage and I go, "Oh my God, oh my God." And then the customers say, "Yeah, plus I realize that I could also do this." So that's, you know, that's the kind of company that we are. And I think that we were so busy being successful with on-prem and that, you know, that we kind of... the cloud happened. Under our eyes. But now with the multi-cloud, I think there is opportunity for VMware to do it all over again. And we are the right company to do it for two reasons. One, we have the right DNA. We have those engineers that know how to make stuff that was not designed to work together work together and the right partnership because everybody partners with us. >> But, you know, a lot of companies like, oh, they missed cloud, they missed mobile. They missed that, whatever it was. VMware was very much aware of this. You made an effort to do kind of your own cloud initiative, backed off from- and everybody was like, this is a disaster waiting to happen and of course it was. And so then you realize that, you learn from your mistakes, and then you embraced the AWS deal. And that changed everything, it changed... It cleared it up for your customers. I'm not hearing anybody saying that the cross-cloud services strategy, what we call multi, uh, super cloud is wrong. Nobody's saying that's like a failed, you know, strategy. Now the execution obviously is very important. So that's why I'm saying it's different this time around. It's not like you don't have your pulse on it. I mean, you tried before, okay, the strategy wasn't right, it backfired, okay, and then you embraced it. But now people are generally in agreement that there's either a problem or there's going to be a problem. And so you kind of just addressed why VMware, because you've always been in the catbird seat to solve those problems. >> But it is a testament to the pragmatism of the company. Right? You try- In technology, you cannot always get it right, right? When you don't get it right, say, "Okay, that didn't work. What is the next?" And I think now we're onto something. It's a very ambitious vision for sure. But I think if you look at the companies out there that have the muscles and the DNA and the resources to do it, I think VMware is one. >> One of the risks to the success, what's been, you know you watch the Twitter chatter is, "Oh, can VMware actually attract the developers?" John chimed in and said, >> Yeah. >> It's not just the devs. I mean, just devs. But also when you think of DevOps, the ops, right? When you think about securing and having that consistent platform. So when you think about the critical factors for you to execute, you have to have that pass platform, no question. Well, how do you think about, okay, where are the gaps that we really have to get right? >> I think that for us to go and get the developers on board, it's too late. And it's too late for most companies. Developers go with the open source, they go with the path of least resistance. So our way into that, and as Kelsey Hightower said, building new application, more applications, is a team sport. And part of that team is the Ops team. And there we have an entry, I think. Because that's what- >> I think it possible. I think you, I think you're hitting it. And my dev comment, by the way, I've been kind of snarky on Twitter about this, but I say, "Oh, Dev's got it easy. They're sitting in the beach with sunglasses on, you know, having focaccia. >> Doing whatever they want. >> Happy doing whatever they want. No, it's better life for the developer now. Open source is the software industry, that's going great. Shift left in CI/CD pipeline. Developers are faster than ever, they're innovating. It's all self-service, it's all DevOps. It's looking good for the developers right now. And that's why everyone's focused on that. They're driving the change. The Ops team, that was traditional IT Ops, is now DevOps with developers. So the seed change of data and security, which is core, we're hearing a lot of those. And if you look at all the big successes, Snowflake, Databricks, MinIO, who was on earlier with the S3 cloud storage anywhere, this is the new connective tissue that VMware can connect to and extend the operational platform of IT and connect developers. You don't need to win them all over. You just connect to them. >> You just have to embrace the tools that they're using. >> Exactly. >> You just got to connect to them. >> You know, you bring up an interesting point. Snowflake has to win the developers, 'cause they're basically saying, "Hey, we're building an application development platform on top of our proprietary system." You're not saying that. You're saying we're embracing the open source tools that developers are using, so use them. >> Well, we gave it a single pane of glass to manage your application everywhere. And going back to your point about not hiding the underlying primitives, we manage that application, right? That application could be moving around, but nobody prevents that application to use that API underneath. I mean, that's, that can always do that. >> Right, right. >> And, and one of the reason why we had Kelsey Hightower and my keynote and the main keynote was that I think he shows that the template, the blueprint for our customers, our operators, if you want to have- even propel your career forward, look at what he did, right? VI admin, going up the stack storage and everything else, and then eventually embrace Kubernetes, became an expert. Really took the time to understand how modern application were- are built. And now he's a luminary in the industry. So we don't have, all have to become luminary, but you can- our customers right here, doing the labs upstairs, they can propel the career forward in this. >> So summarize what you guys are announcing around cross cloud-services. Obviously Aria, another version, 1.3 of Tanzu. Lay out the sort of news. >> Yeah, so we- With Tanzu, we have one step forward with our developer experience so that, speaking of meeting where they are, with application templates, with ability to plug into their idea of choice. So a lot of innovation there. Then on the IR side, I think that's the name of the game in multi-cloud, is having that object model allows you to manage anything across anything. And then, we talk about cross-cloud services being a vision last year, I, when I launched it, I thought security and networking up there as a cloud, but it was still down here as ploy technology. And now with NSX, the latest version, we brought that control plane in the cloud as a cloud native cross-cloud service. So, lot of meat around the three pillars, development, the management, and security. >> And then the complementary component of vSphere 8 and vSAN 8 and the whole DPU thing, 'cause that's, 'cause that's cloud, right? I mean, we saw what AWS did with Nitro. >> Yeah. >> Five, seven years ago. >> That's the consumption model cloud. >> That's the future of computing architecture. >> And the licensing model underneath. >> Oh yeah, explain that. Right, the universal licensing model. >> Yeah, so basically what we did when we launch cloud universal was, okay, you can buy our software using credit that you have on AWS. And I said, okay, that's kind of hybrid cloud, it's not multi-cloud, right? But then we brought in Google and now the latest was Microsoft. Now you can buy our software for credits and investment that our customers already have with these great partners of ours and use it to consume as a subscription. >> So that kind of changes your go-to-market and you're not just chasing an ELA renewal now. You're sort of thinking, you're probably talking to different people within the organizations as well, right? So if I can use credits for whatever, Google, for Azure, for on-prem, for AWS, right? Those are different factions necessarily in the organization. >> So not just the technology's multi-cloud, but also the consumption model is truly multi-cloud. >> Okay, Vittorio, what's next? What's the game plan? What do you have going on? It's getting good traction here again, like Dave said, no one's poo-pooing cross-cloud services. It is kind of a timing market forces. We were just talking before you came on. Oh, customers don't- may not think they have a problem, whether they're the frog boiling water or not, they will have the problem coming up or they don't think they have a problem, but they have chaos reigning. So what's next? What are you doing? Is it going to be new tech, new market? What is the plan? >> So I think for, if I take my bombastic kind of marketing side of me hat off and I look at the technology, I think the customers in these scales wants to be told what to do. And so I think what we need to do going forward is articulate these cross-cloud services use cases. Like okay, what does mean to have an application that uses a service over here, a service over there, and then show the value of getting this component from one company? Because cross-cloud services at your event, how many vendors were there? 20? 30? >> Yeah. >> So the market is there. I mean, these are all revenue-generating companies, right, but they provide a piece of the puzzle. Our ambition is to provide a platform approach. And so we need to articulate better, what are the advantages of getting these components management, security, from- >> And Kit, Kit was saying, it's a hybrid kind of scenario. I was kind of saying, oh, putting my little business school scenario hat on, oh yeah, you go hardcore competitive, best product wins, kill or be killed, compete and win. Or you go open and you create a keiretsu, create a consortium, and get support, standardize or defacto standardize a bunch of it, and then let everyone monetize or participate. >> Yeah, we cannot do it alone. >> What's the approach? What's the approach you guys want to take? >> So I think whatever possible, first of all, we're not going to do it alone. Right, so the ecosystem is going to play a part and if the ecosystem can come together around the consortium or a standard that makes sense for customers? Absolutely. >> Well, and you say, nobody's poo-pooing it, and I stand by that. But they are saying, and I think it is true, it's hard, right? It's a very challenging, ambitious goal that you have. But yeah, you've got a track record of- >> I mean the old playbook, >> Exactly! >> The old playbooks are out. I mean, I always say, the old kill and be highly competitive strategy. Proprietary is dead. And then if you look at the old way of winning was, okay, you know, we're going to lock customers in- >> What do you mean proprietary is dead? Proprietary's not dead. >> No, I mean like, I'm talking- Okay, I'm talking about how people sell. Enterprise companies love to create, simplify, create value with chaos like okay, complexity with more complexity. So that's over, you think that's how people are marketing? >> No, no, it's true. But I mean, we see a lot of proprietary out there. >> Like what? >> It's still happening. Snowflake. (laughing) >> Tell that to the entire open store software industry. >> Right, well, but that's not your play. I mean, you have to have some kind of proprietary advantage. >> The enterprise playbook used to be solve complexity with complexity, lock the customers in. Cloud changed all that with open. You're a seasoned marketer, you're also an executive. You have an interesting new wave. How do you market to the enterprise in this new open way? How do you win? >> For us, I think we have that relationship with the C-level and we have delivered for them over and over again. So our challenge from a marketing perspective is to educate these executives about all that. And the fact that we didn't have this user conference in person didn't help, right? And then show that value to the operator so that they can help us just like we did in the past. I mean, our sales motion in the past was we made these people- I told them today, you were the heroes. When you virtualized, when you brought down 1000 servers to 80, you were the hero, right? So we need to empower them with the technology and the know-how to be heroes again in multi-cloud. And I think the business will take care of itself. >> Okay final question from me, and Dave might have another one of his, everybody wanted to know this year at VMworld, VMware Explore, which is the new name, what would it look like? What would the vibe be? Would people show up? Would it be vibrant? Would cross-cloud hunt? Would super cloud be relevant? I got to say looking at the floor last night, looking at the keynotes, looking at the perspective, it seems to look like, oh, people are on board. What is your take on this? You've been talking to customers, you're talking to people in the hallways. You've been brief talking to all the analysts. What is the vibe about this year's Explore? >> I think, you've been covering us for a long time, this is a religious following we have. And we don't take it for granted. I told the audience today, this to us is a family reunion and we couldn't be, so we got a sense of like, that's what I feels like the family is back together. >> And there's a wave coming too. It's not like business is dying. It's like a whole 'nother. Another wave is coming. >> It's funny you mention about the heroes. 'Cause I go back, I don't really have my last question, but it's just the last thought is, I remember the first time I saw a demo of VMware and I went, "Holy crap, wow. This is totally game changing." I was blown away. Right, like you said, 80 servers down to just a couple of handfuls. This is going to change everything. And that's where it all started. You know, I mean, I know it started in workstations, but that's when it really became transformational. >> Yeah, so I think we have an opportunity to do it over again with the family that is here today, of which you guys consider family as well. >> All right, favorite part of the keynote and then we'll wrap up. What was your favorite part of the keynote today? >> I think the excitement from the developer people that were up there. Kelsey- >> The guy who came after Kelsey, what was his name? I didn't catch it, but he was really good. >> Yeah, I mean, it's, what it's all about, right? People that are passionate about solving hard problems and then cannot wait to share it with the community, with the family. >> Yeah. I love the one line, "You kids have it easy today. We walk to school barefoot in the snow back in the day." >> Uphill, both ways. >> Broke the ice to wash our face. >> Vittorio, great to see you, great friend of theCUBE, CUBE alumni, vice president of cross-cloud serves at VMware. A critical new area that's harvesting the fruits coming off the tree as VMware invested in cloud native many years ago. It's all coming to the market, let's see how it develops. Congratulations, good luck, and we'll be back with more coverage here at VMware Explore. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us after the short break. (gentle music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone welcome to "theCUBE's" live coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMware Explore not VMworld, it's VMware Explore. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE" with Dave Vellante. We're here with two sets. 12th year, Dave, covering VMworld, now VMware Explore, what a journey? I had a little reminiscing from Paul Maritz in 2010, who predicted the future but the timing was off. Raghu predicting the future, but is his timing right with multi-cloud or super-cloud? We're going to get into it. We got three days of wall to wall CUBE coverage, two sets. All the top execs from VMware coming on, including the CEO Raghu himself, Vittorio, Kit Colbert, the whole kit and caboodle of the executive group to talk about the future of VMware, where it's going, and of course the appearance of Hock Tan here from Broadcom, Dave, made an appearance. Michael Dell was also in presence. I get the vibe that there's something going on with Broadcom and VMware beyond just the acquisition. So a lot of people are curious. This event again is notable and historic from the sense of it's VMware Explore not VMworld, so they changed the name, and Broadcom's intent, and they're going to be buying VMworld. Dave, the keynote was anticipated by all, how it was going to go down, what was going to be said. Raghu set the table, I got a ton of notes, I know you do. What's your take? >> Well, you have to start with the Broadcom acquisition. You're right, Hock Tan was in the audience, he stood up, he got a little clap. >> Golf clap. >> He's paying $60 billion for VMware, he better be able to be recognized. And he was here yesterday with Michael Dell at the executive sessions. And their purpose I'm sure, they didn't let us in, but I'm sure the purpose was to make sure that customers were calm, they were comfortable with the direction. Of course, the narrative coming out of VMware is that, hey, they're investigating, they're going deep into our portfolio, and they like what they see, it's going to be all good, it's not going to be like the CA acquisition and de-levering and all that stuff. I still stand by what I wrote in my breaking analysis back in May. The fact is, Broadcom has promised $8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years. That's the only way they get there, is to cut, so that's going to happen. But the interesting dynamic in the market, I don't know if you've noticed this, VMware stock is trading at a 20% discount to what Broadcom is paying for it. So there's a big amount of fluff, if you want to do some arbitration. And I think it's due to the fact that it's a stock and a cash deal, it's a combination deal, and it's not going to close for a year. So there's maybe some skepticism around that. But that was an interesting dynamic. The keynote we'll get into it, but it's all around multi-cloud and what we call super-cloud. >> I have my conspiracy theories on Broadcom, actually they make chips. Looking at all the waves right now in the technology industry, silicon is hot, anyone who's doing custom silicon and putting software on the chip, making purpose built vertical applications is seeing performance gains in cloud and in these applications. So one, I'm really excited by the dots connecting there. But also the VMware story, Dave, is pretty interesting in the sense that timing's everything, the Broadcom acquisition, EBITDA focus might drive behavior. But notable for VMware, is Raghu has been on this vision for years. I remember in 2016 when I interviewed him with Andy Jassy, who was then the CEO of AWS, they had moved everything to Amazon Web Services. And that was the beginning of the vision of multi-cloud and cloud-native. VMware invested a ton, and so we're seeing some fruit come off the tree. If you will, bearing some fruit from that VMware investment in cloud-native across the board which was their bet prior to Broadcom buying them out. So the question is, does Broadcom harvest that, continue that nurturing of that "plantation of goodness" that could come out of that VMware? And again, it's probability, it's not guaranteed. Commentary on Twitter is pretty heavy on, can they win the Devs? Can the new Ops bringing around the front? So, VMware's and Broadcom in a tough position, they bought more than they thought in my opinion. And I think a lot of people are saying, does Broadcom recognize the strategic value of what's coming out of the oven, so to speak, or what's blowing off the tree from VMware? And is it real? That is the number one question. I talk to people in the hallway, that's what they're saying. They want to know what's going to happen with what's around the corner, that's on top of mind of everybody. >> It's a really important question because VMware's future is multi-cloud management, what we call super-cloud. And without Tanzu, and I speculated that Tanzu was probably going to be under the microscope and potentially on the chopping block because they spend a lot of money marketing it, but they're probably not today getting a lot of returns. But without Tanzu, without a cross-cloud PaaS we sometimes call a super PaaS. their strategy doesn't work, it basically fails. And I think what a lot of people are missing, and I saw you chime in on Twitter, is can they win the Devs? Can they win the Devs? This is table stakes. If you don't have a cross-cloud PaaS, and it's really about not necessarily just the Devs, it's about the ops, right? Because now it's about security. Yes, shift left, but shield right. But the DevOps team, the Ops team needs consistency. It's like Adrian Cockcroft says, the Devs, they love to get married, the Ops, they got to clean up after the divorce. And so they need standard- >> You're implying that they'll use any tool for the job and not really worry about lock in. And I think today on the keynote, Deshaun was up there who submitted a comment, "You kids have it easy these days." Implying us old guys, when we coded, you had to do everything yourself. Kelsey Hightower mentioned her support pack desktop edition. The old days when had to build everything by hand, now it's all automated, all goodness. But in all seriousness, the focus there was DevOps has won, DevOps is what the developers are doing. The developers are in the clear right now, as far as I'm concerned. They're sitting on the beach right now, sunglasses on, sun shining, everything's shift left, CI/CD pipeline, cloud-native goodness. If you're a dev, things are much rosier than an Ops person. So DevOps is developer, security and DataOps, is where the action is. So it's not so much IT operations as it is security and data leveling up to the velocity demand of developers and also ease of use. So self-service in the motion of coding, in the pipelining, that's what the developers have to have. And if people don't build that experience from the upside, the new ops is not going to enable the develop, it won't be adopted in my opinion. >> You mentioned Paul Maritz before, his whole thing was any workload, any cloud, the software mainframe, they're talking about any Kubernetes, any cloud. And we got to go through some of the announcements real quick here. VMware Aria is the new multi-cloud management platform. That is the fundamental strategy for going cross-cloud or what we call super-cloud. The vSphere and vSAN 8 are big deals. And as relates to compute with vSphere, they're really pushing that whole DPU. You might remember Project Monterey. Well, Project Monterey is essentially like AWS Nitro, it's the future of computing architecture seven years after AWS introduced it. So AWS has a huge lead here. But it's critical that a company like VMware is able to offer that capability with XPU optionality, GPU, CPU, Arm based, Pensando capabilities, eventually NPUs, other capabilities to bring in and support new workloads, new data driven workloads. So the lot of talk about the whole DPU thing. As I mentioned, Tanzu new version of Tanzu, they talked about edge. They're basically bringing VMware to the edge with an eventual consistency model. >> Hold on, the vSphere thing, just to jump in there real quick. I always thought that that'd be higher up in the keynote. Clearly in the keynote, they flexed their cloud-native positioning, they had to address the Broadcom thing, talk about modern applications. So it felt like they were selling the dream on the front end. And they buried the lead in my opinion, which is vSphere 8. They don't do a lot of vSphere 8 announcements. If you look at the history of VMworld, every few years they got a new release. This was packed with a lot of goodness. And I thought they'd buried that in the keynote. >> I don't know, Raghu mentioned it. Yeah, they had a lot to cover. And then the other thing was they announced support for Red Hat OpenShift. So everybody's like, "Ooh, wow." And then Tanzu for all the Kubernetes versions from the cloud guys. So a lot of announcements, you got to always give VMware props. It's not like they stopped engineering, they have a great engineering culture. And so it's nice to see Project Monterey in particular, go from R&D to actual product. And so we like to see that. >> Even towards the end, now that we're doing the keynote review, Raghu said, "As proud as we are," this is when they started talking about the sustainability, implying they're real proud engineering, and that's a good call out there. I think that's what were trying to get across to Hock Tan, who was sitting in the front row. But Dave, in terms of keynote, my analysis is clear. Raghu was nervous, you can tell. But he's a product guy, he even said that on stage. He set the table at the beginning, I thought really well with modern applications. He had to address the name change, and I thought that was interesting. He actually said, "We built a community with VMworld, but now with multi-cloud, we're going to recall it Explore." Not sure I agree with that. I think VMworld community is still vibrant, and that's why they're here. So I thought that was nice, the way he balance that out, the messaging is good, the graphics and the branding of Explore is world class, I think it's phenomenal. I'm not a big fan of the name change, but I never go well with change there. Hock Tan didn't speak, he did stand up and wave. >> There's no way he's going to get up to speak. >> He didn't speak. So I thought that was interesting front end, so they got that right out of the way. And absolutely you saying last night. And then they got into this digitally smart concept, which I thought was on point. Did not like the great replatforming message. I'm not a big fan of that because it reminded me of the great resignation. And I think there's going to be a lot of memes on that. So not a big fan of the great replatforming. I did like the Cloud Universal pitch. But this whole multi-cloud pitch seems to me, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that that's what it reminded me of, Paul Maritz. So when Raghu is clearly betting the ranch on multi-cloud, the question is timing. Paul Maritz in 2010 here at VMworld Moscone, he laid out the vision, he was right. But timing was off, the top of the stack didn't materialize. But at the end of the day, ended up being the right architecture. Is VMware too early with multi-cloud, Dave? And that's the question, that's the question on the table. >> Well, so a couple things. So Maritz, the one mistake Maritz made was he really tried to go into apps, remember? So now at least I think Raghu, the current VMware thinking is, we're going to enable apps to be developed. And that is the right thinking. Are they too early or too late with multi-cloud? I think technically it just wasn't feasible, the customers weren't ready for it. VMware moves at the speed of the CIO we like to say. So I think the timing is actually really good because the technical capabilities are now there. You've got to have across-cloud paths, which Tanzu is about. And I think Tanzu was too immature before. They've got the pieces on the DPU side. And the other thing about the timing is now with Broadcom acquiring VMware, the whole non Dell ecosystem has got to be a lot happier. NetApp, guys like that, Cisco. >> Why is that? >> Because Dell, their thumb on the scale, they had the thing rigged, Dell was first in line for everything. When EMC owned VMware, that was the case. But they were required about it, Dell made no concessions. And they just came out and said, "We are going to be VMware first, we are the preferred partner, we do more business with anybody." They really drove a truck through that. And I think it caused a lot of the ecosystem to pull back, like HPE and others to say, "Okay, we're going to find some alternatives here." Now they can really lean in. It's like when HP broken two, that really changed the ecosystem posture with HPE. This is like that, but times 10. >> What did you think about the ecosystem floor last night? When I did a walk of the floor, I thought it was very vibrant, it was not a ghost town at all. >> No, not at all, we saw Alibaba Cloud was there, we saw a lot of- >> AWS. >> Smaller companies >> Microsoft. >> And so I thought it was better than I thought it would be. There's probably what, 7,000 people here I would say? So well off from the 15,000 pre-COVID highs, but still very robust, it's a good crowd. People are excited to be back in person obviously. And I think the messaging was right, John. I think cross-cloud, multi-cloud, super-cloud, that is the future. Well, David Floid took a stab at it and said, "I think it's going to be $100 billion market by the end of the decade." >> Super-cloud is a thing for sure. And I think that came out in Aria announcement, which was basically a rebranding. It's not a new product, essentially it's a cobble together management platform. I thought the Cloud Universal notes here were interesting. The Cloud Universal is the commercial cloud smart component. Meaning they're trying to make that the frame, Dave, for the hyperscalers to come in to a de facto consortium movement. I feel like that's next here. If this Cloud Universal could become the super-cloud consortium, that might give them a better shot. The ecosystem is buzzing, attendance is strong. It's interesting a lot of people were speculating, will this be an event? I thought they did a great job and I thought they came through well with this. >> You were saying about consortium, because have to have the cloud guys in any consortium. But is any one cloud going to drive it? VMware could be- >> AWS >> Could be the driver. >> I'm thinking if I had to make a prediction, looking at what I just saw in the keynote, we'll see what the VMware execs say, If I had to make a guess, I think you're going to have customers, "Let's still double down on VMware stuff." They're going to settle into vSphere and networking compute and storage, the normal stuff that they've got, the software to find data center core as a cloud operational platform. And then you're going to see a lot more AWS migration. You might see that if Broadcom doesn't nurture the fruit coming off the tree, as we mentioned earlier, I think you might see people go more cloud-native. But I think VMware's prepared for that with the hybrid. So it's going to be very interesting to see. I think the winners coming out of this will be AWS, maybe a little bit of trickle into Azure, Alibaba mostly for the European, I mean the China side. But I don't see them playing. Google is a wild card, we'll see it from them. >> I think the other big thing about the timing, to your earlier point is, VMware used to go to market with very bespoke, We got vSAN, we got NSX, we got vSphere, and now they're trying to bring that together. And essentially remember, they used to go to market and say, "Okay, hey, your ELA is up, time to renew." And they're talking to the wrong people. So now they're going forth with the Azure service model, they're going to move to a subscription model. And I think the timing is right for that. I would've liked to see it a little bit before hand, maybe pre COVID would have been better timing. But I think technically, the time is right now for that. >> And I think looking at the acquisition, speculating on that, I think let's discuss how we see things, how they might move forward. Again, we'll ask the guests as much as best as we can and the best they could answer. But let's take this forward. Okay, based upon what I'm seeing here, if I'm Hock Tan in the audience, I'm saying to myself, "Okay, I got more here than I thought I was buying." Maybe I thought I was getting some great EBITDA. I wonder if his outlook changed on how he goes to market with the new VMware post acquisition. So that means in the around February timeframe, I would probably, if I was advising him to say, "Okay, let's keep it as is, let's not do the cut, cut, cut. Maybe trim a little bit here and there." But for the most part, he's got the solid customer base and he's going to have to keep the event. >> Here's the problem with that. They have a very high do-say ratio. They do what they say they're going to do. And as a result, they've promised 8.5 billion in EBITDA within three years out of VMware. And they return 50% of their free cash flow to investors. If they break that promise, their stock will get crushed. I don't think they're going to break that promise. So I think they're going to run. That's something I believe in their playbook that they're not going to change. Now, could they get there without massive cuts? I think it's going to be hard. Can they get there with price increases? Yes. And better efficiency, yes. But they don't have a lot of go to market synergies, John. Broadcom doesn't have a big sales force that they can say, "Okay, we're going to fire all the VMware sales force and you're going to go to market through our channel." Like Oracle would do with their big sales force or a Dell would do with an acquisition, they can't. And so I just don't see how they're going to around it. The only other thing I would say is, to me, I thought the application development piece, the Tanzu piece was very appropriate. And I think they got it. Whether or not they're going to succeed there, we can debate that. But I thought what was missing was there wasn't enough, in my opinion, on their security posture, their security strategy. I thought they gave it lip service with, "Oh yeah, we're going to shift left and dev security, et cetera." They did not go in depth. I think when you talk to someone like Tom Gillis, who really can go deep, I think talking about Barry and the lead, that was not, security is the number one issue of CIOs, CSO. >> Data and security >> At boards, it's number one. And data is the second thing. And those two stories in the keynote where quasi non-existent or/and weak. >> Again, the reason why I believe, and you're discussing it publicly at a high level, is super-cloud is real because it's not just SaaS on cloud, it's hybrid, it's DevOps, it's developer. And security and data operations are just absolutely now leveling up, and the edge is a complete wild card. We met a company last night, they're doing the edge cloud. The edge is going to open up all kinds of new use cases and challenges. And that's on the DataOps, data security side. DevOps, IT operations is already in the dev cycle. If companies aren't doing that, in my opinion, they're not really doing it right. So I think it'll shift to security and Ops and DataOps, that's going to be the action. In the cloud operational framework, that's super-cloud. To me, if I'm Hock Tan, I'm saying, "VMworld, VMware Explore, VMware has to be a core component of super-cloud of the future. Not multi-cloud just a state." I think multi-cloud will be a description of a state, of an architecture, and an outcome, but that's not super-cloud, that's not a functioning operating system, that's not a functioning business driven technology. So I think VMware has the opportunity. So I look at that and say, I got cheap options all the way up to the top of the stack. And super-cloud paths layer, as you describe, that I think is the way to go. >> When you think about how VMware got here, VMware was a $13 billion trailing 12 month revenue company. There aren't a lot of $13 billion software companies. And the way VMware got here, is through great software engineering. They identified problems that the customers had and they went and solved them. They did it with virtualization, they did it with private cloud, they figured out their public cloud strategy. So I think the question for Broadcom is going to be okay, how fast can we monetize that engineering? Can we turn that engineering R&D into dollars? And how fast can we do that? They have two choices in my opinion, keep innovating, which of course we hope that's the case, or act like a private equity firm and just squeeze as much cash out of VMware as possible. Which I don't think would be the right strategy because eventually that says, okay, what's going to happen to Broadcom? How are they going to continue to grow? Are they're going to have to just keep growing through acquisitions? So I think R&D is a really good spend when it's VMware. >> And I think as we wrap up our keynote analysis, one of the things that's going to come out of this as the conversation, no doubt in my mind will be, VMware isn't CA. And the question is, does Broadcom go off their playbook with VMware because of the fact that you look at the sponsorships for the show, we got a robust set of sponsorships for "theCUBE." With two sets, we're booked, fully loaded. Conversation's high, the floor is all about next level cloud operations. This is not a dying market, this is a growth wave coming. So the question, as super-cloud becomes that growth, and everyone's talking about super-cloud there. Some people who don't like the name, which is good, keep grace debate. But there's no doubt that that next wave is the super-cloud philosophy, the super-cloud mindset and architecture, and development environment. And we've documented that on supercloud.world if anyone's interested. But that wave is coming, and you can see it on the floor. Look at the sponsors, look at what people are talking about, Dave. This is not like Broadcom buying VMware and tucking it under and saying, "Okay, hope we can service the customer." There's a real market growth here story. So the question is, what do you do with that? >> Well, so you start with the base. VMware is a very good platform. The reason why they don't have a ton of competition and the reason why, okay, Nutanix can maybe trickle some away, but VMware is really good, it works, it's stable, it recovers from failures, it's got a super strong ecosystem. So you start by building there and then you identify the places where you can spend a dollar and make it 10. >> Well, I was very excited that when we had our super-cloud event, which was a virtual event as a test, we had great VMware support. And a lot of the catalog sessions up here, on Moscone West, where we're sitting, upstairs is all the sessions, they're crowded. And they overlay, Dave, with our narrative and the industry narrative. On the influencer side, you're starting to see the influencers meeting our editorial and pursuing a super-cloud with VMware and their ecosystem. Kind of agreeing super-cloud is real. And I think that is an important note because just last December, when we coined the term at Reinvent, I think it was Reinvent look what's happened. I want to get your thoughts and your reaction to why super-cloud has got so much traction, it's a great buzz with the name. But why is it that our super-cloud, the VMware, and the ecosystem are all aligning with this? Why do you think that's happening? Why do you think that the momentum is accelerating? >> The reason is that, as everybody knows, organizations have multiple clouds, it's a function of shadow Devs, M&A. And so they end up with all these different clouds, all these different projects, different primitives, different APIs, different tool sets. And they called it cloud chaos today. It's accurate, it is cloud chaos. So what's the problem with that? Well, that makes it harder to secure, it makes it harder to govern, it makes it harder to share data, it creates data silos. What's the answer? Well, if you can create a layer that's an abstraction layer that simplifies all that cross cloud data sharing and development and have a consistent set of APIs through a PaaS layer, we call it super PaaS and you are going to have a metadata intelligence that says, "Okay, I'm going to put this here or put that there. And I'm going to deal with latency, I'm going to optimize for whatever purpose, data sharing, or performance or whatever it is." You're going to solve a lot of problems. And you're going to make the CIO's life easier so that they can invest in their own business and their digital transformation and their digital strategy. So that's why people agree. They might not agree with the name, but they certainly agree with the concept of that abstraction layer. >> The name is certainly a better name than multi-cloud, multi-cloud sounds broken. But I think CIOs and CXOs, CISO, CSOs have to get buy-in from their teams. The organic dev relationship with Ops and SecOps and DataOps has to be symbiotic, not conflicting. And I love the chaos story because as Andy Grove, the legend at Intel once said, "Let chaos reign and then reign in the chaos." >> Chaos is cash. >> So in any innovation inflection point, chaos becomes the complexity, abstraction layers, and or innovation takes that complexity away. This is the formula for success. And I think VMware is right in the middle of it. And I think if I'm looking at VMware right now, I'm saying, hey, reign in that chaos right now and you win. So chaos is not a bad thing if you can reign it in, Dave. >> And that's what they've done. You think about what they did with virtualization, it was chaotic, it was wasteful. I think of what they did with private cloud. They said, "Hey IT guys, we're going to help you not get cloudified. We're going to cloudify your presence on-prem and not just throw everything into the cloud." They did a great job there. And now it's all about multi-cloud. >> Well, we're going to reign in the chaos, extract the signal from the noise. Super CUBE here at super-cloud event VMware Explore. Dave, great to kick it off again. Again, 12th year of CUBE coverage. It seems like a lifetime, Dave. Just yesterday we were 2010 >> Amazing, right. We've been in Moscone South, we've been in North, we've been in Las Vegas. Now we're here West, first time in west. >> Some of these developers were in elementary school when we started "theCUBE" here, I was just feeling old relics. Anyway, we're going to bring more action, three days of coverage, thecube.net, check it out. Join our community, join the conversation. As the influences are coming more onto the market, you're seeing a lot more conversations on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on the internet, check it out. Join the conversation. I'm John Furrier and Dave Vellante. We'll be back with more coverage here in San Francisco after this break. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Hi, everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage of Avis reinvent 2021 we're onsite in person. It's a virtual event, also hybrid events. I'm Jennifer and my host, David Dante ninth year, Dave, we've been doing Avis reinvent the cube and it's 11th season. We've seen a lot. Yeah, I'll say. >>And the show is pretty packed, John. I mean, I think it's surprised some folks over 25,000 people here. I mean, obviously a lot of sponsors, but >>Customers to a bad event for AWS in terms of attendance is like record-breaking for any other company, people are standing in line for sessions. It's definitely happening. People are here to learn. They're not just all employees. So definitely a successful event in person as well in the live stream. But so much news to talk about. Andy Jassy is now the CEO of Amazon. That's the top story Adam's Lipsky's taking over as CEO of AWS time, Amazonian who left Amazon to take the CEO job of Tableau sold that company to Salesforce under mark Benioff. Now back to take the helm from Andy Jassy and quite the pressure cooker here as he takes the stage, a lot of people are asking, is will he do well? Will he fumble on stage? Will he do the right things? And does he have what it takes to take the cloud to the next generation with AWS as their number one clear far and away, then the second competitor in Microsoft and then a look distant third and Google. So Amazon's are under a ton of competitive pressure. At least from an industry standpoint, everyone's still trying to catch up. It's the same theme, Dave, every year Amazon is out front and the lead just gets extended and extended. And again, here, no exception. Well, the Uber >>Of course there's you mentioned is Andy Jassy is now taking over a CEO of Amazon. And you know, history would suggest that a lot of times that companies falter when there's a CEO transition, but it feels like it's different this time. Andy Jassy was here since the beginning launched AWS versus a profit engine of Amazon brought back Adam sill Lipski who has a deep understand. He's not as technical as Andy, but obviously as a deep understanding of the business, yeah, he was comfortable up in the keynote. It wasn't John, a typical firehose of announcements. Even those, a lot of announcements, they didn't shove them down our throat and they didn't in the analyst session as well. Usually in the analyst session, it's hours and hours and hours of firehose Kool-Aid injection, not this year. Why do you think that is, is that a COVID thing? Is that a change in now? >>I think Adam's Leschi wants to be his own guy. As, as leader here, a lot of things were eliminated from the keynote that Andy Jasmine did, for instance, Andy Jesse loves music. So we always had the music walk up music like you see in sports, uh, which is very cool. That's an Andy Jassy kind of tweak. Andy is all about announcements and he was just, uh, pushing the envelope. Adam was much more laid back. He sees, I think, more of a holistic picture being more of an app guy being more of a data guy, less of a, I would say under the covers nerd like Jassy was, Andy was very deep on, on a lot of the tech stuff as is Adam. But I think Andy a little bit more proactive on that. So Adam was very much more about the impact of 80 of us culturally, as a society, as a company and kind of brought in this kind of think different apple vibe, which is, you know, the people who are Pathfinders, um, as he takes that Jassy kind of, um, approach of leaders, but be a builder, be a change agent, be a game changer. >>Adam took it to another level by saying, Hey, it's okay to be a Pathfinder because it's net new disruption with the cloud. And I think that's the story that I see coming out of this where, uh, in talking to Adam one-on-one Amazon absolutely has a secret weapon in it's chips, custom Silicon. They're absolutely crushing it with how they're thinking about SAS and platforms and they have a huge ecosystem. And I think at the end of the day, and we talked about this in our story on Silicon angle, Amazon could actually wipe out Microsoft. And I think Microsoft's core competitive advantage has always been their ecosystem and their developers. I think right now in the next few years, if Microsoft doesn't match Amazon, they will be decimated anyway, you know? >>Yeah, hold on. Okay. Amazon's not going to wipe out Microsoft. Microsoft has too much of a cash cow. Look at the hanging on to windows. Couldn't, you know, the mistake and missing mobile event initially missing the cloud. Didn't wipe out Microsoft. So they've just got too much of a software cashflow. That's not gonna happen maybe a little bit over the top. >>I thought, but Microsoft has done a great job and it's not going to tell it to kind of stay in the game and do more. But if you look at the major inflection points, Dave where's digital equipment corporation, where's prime computer. Well, >>I think this is the point is again, history would show that those companies, when they handed the reigns over to a new CEO failed, they faltered, it was self-inflicted wounds. It almost happened. You thought it would happen with Microsoft, whether it became irrelevant under bomber, but when Nadella came in, he reinvigorated because specifically they had the cashflow to be able to do that. Now. So the big question is, okay, w what's going to happen. We ran a survey to our community to see what could disrupt Amazon. You know, that the us government wants to break them apart or wants to regulate them. But our survey respondents said there's a 60% plus probability that Amazon will be disrupted by other factors. And that's what I was self-inflicted wound that's Jesse's that's right. And that's, Jessie's big challenge is how to not make those disruptions, how to fight those disruptions. >>The number one, uh, reason why they could be disrupted was self-inflicted wounds, which again, history would show what happened. But one of the things we talked about is that normally happens when companies stop innovating when they rest on their laurels. Right. And you kind of saw that with those companies that you mentioned, but you mentioned their secret weapon. We wrote about that in our article, the chips. So we heard no secret. Everybody knew graviton three was coming, right? And so that is Amazon secret up. And you know, I've been thinking about this. John Amazon makes a lot of money on x86 instances that they've deployed years ago and they charge a lot for, I was wondering, you know, is the, or the old X 86 instances actually more profitable than graviton, maybe at this point in time, but long-term graviton. They control their own destiny because they control the hardware and software stack. And I bet you allows them to get better negotiating leverage with >>M D and it's of course, I mean, pat, Kelsey, we should talk about this all the time, but as bad as Jason Intel, you, if you're not out in the next wave, your driftwood, I think Intel and AMD and others, they have purpose-built general purpose chips. They're probably going to be for the lift and shift stuff when you, but if you're actually seriously writing software as an owner on the cloud, and you want specific advantages of speed and performance, you're going to want the custom Silicon that's purpose-built for your application and write code to that stack. So, so I think there's a whole nother level of platform as a service. Dave, that's kind of coming out of this re-invent that I think could be a multi generational trend, which is, Hey, the cloud is of super cloud or platform. Look at the riser, snowflake and Databricks. Those guys are on Amazon. Like they're super clouds in and of themselves they're platforms. They're not appoint SAS solution. I think Microsoft in my, my analysis is, yeah, they got office 365, okay. Word processing stuff. But what other SAS apps do they have besides SQL server and other things that are actually being built on there? And if, if I'm a developer you're going to want to go to the platform. That's the highest performance for office 365. It's a cash cow. But how long is that going to last >>A long time? I mean, major momentum. We argue about that later, but I wanna, I want to touch on graviton three because I think that was the big announcement of the day 25% faster than graviton to at least twice the floating point performance twice the crypto graphic performance in three times for machine learning, learning workloads, and very importantly, 60% less power. So at Amazon scale, uh, Adam said this in our meeting, he said, the economics really favor us because of our scale. And so, and they've also announced new training them instances and, and, and what, what having custom Silicon allows Amazon to do is release on a much, much faster cadence than traditional x86. And they could do, and they could do really cool things. Nitro is there, Nick they're smart NEC, which it says the basis, their new hypervisor, if you will. So it allows them to bring in x86, uh, Nvidia NPUs some of their own or Nvidia GPU, some of their own Silicon. So optionality is really the key there. You heard them announce, uh, an SAP instance. So that's a memory intensive instance. They can dial things up, dial things down. They've got full control of the stack. And by the way, copying them Google's copy of Microsoft is copying them. And who's leading this charge in custom Silicon, AWS, obviously Tesla, apple. I mean, these are leading companies that I don't think they all got it wrong. I think >>The Silicon angle is to have your own custom Silicon. And that's the, that is the clearly the advantage as it's vertically integrated. But the other thing that's coming out of this reinvents, the purpose built software concept where, you know, they're not copying Microsoft playbook as the wall street journal was saying, and some are saying Microsoft copying Amazon, Amazon has always been this horizontally scalable resource that's cloud, but with machine learning and AI, you now have this purpose-built kind of capability from software into the app itself where data has to be addressable. And I think the people in the data business kind of know this, but as the rest of the world comes out, architecturally having that horizontal observation space and data that's vertically tied to machine learning is a huge architectural shift. This is a complete rethinking of how software is built and that's going to be a game changer. I think Amazon's well out on front of that. And I think that's going to be a huge architectural shift. >>Well, let's quantify this a little bit because you know, you're, you're making the point that Amazon is the number one cloud, which I would agree with. We're talking here about IAS infrastructure as a service in the past layer that sits on top of that. Microsoft defines the cloud is we'll put in an office 365, Google we'll put in its Google apps, Amazon pure infrastructure as a service. And if you just look at that space, that's about $120 billion business. When you add up AWS, Azure, Alibaba and GCP, which I would contend are the only four hyperscalers out there. I don't include Oracle as a hyperscale. I don't include IBM. I get a lot of crap for that sometimes. Yeah, but we're talking big scaler, $120 billion. So actually relatively small compared to the trillion dollar opportunity that they have, but it's growing at 35% a year. Amazon will do more than 60 billion this year, 62 billion, just to quantify it in that ISS space. Microsoft will be about 38, 30 9 billion. Okay. So pretty substantial. Those two are far ahead of the others. Everybody else's, you know, Google is still in, you know, under 10 billion, Alibaba is right around there. So those two, it's really a two horse race. And I asked Microsoft using its software estate. Amazon's gotta be the innovator and has to have the best cloud to win. And it does well >>Also a platform. Let's go back to the little history lesson for the younger folks out there. When Microsoft was had a monopoly, they had windows operating system, which has had DAS under the covers, but windows was the operating system. And office was a suite of applications. They encourage software developers to build on top of windows and they had other servers off SQL server all came out of that small history. So their bread and butter was to have developers build on top of windows. Hence the monopoly, of course they had the application and the system software, hence the monopoly, hence the Microsoft breakup by the government in 1997. Now today cloud is essentially one big kind of PC concept. It's like windows, it's windows equivalent. So cloud is essentially an environment platform that has apps that run on top of it. Okay. In that world, Amazon by far is the number one windows model at Amazon's. >>I mean, Microsoft is used to is okay, I got Azure and I got office 365 that keeps them in business that keeps them from losing. So it's a placeholder. So that what I'm looking at is what is Amazon? I mean, Amazon versus Azure, doing relative to ISV and uptake for developers. And I'm suggesting that this trend of Amazon will go, if it goes uncontested by Azure, they'll wipe the table on ISV and suffer developers. If you're an owner of a software, you're not gonna write software, that's gonna be sub-optimized for a platform. That's not going to be before, >>Unless you're, unless you're a Microsoft developer, nearly all.net days. And there are a lot of those. And that's what, that's what Microsoft is doing. They're they're, they're, they've, they've shifted to cloud, they've gone everything into cloud. So Azure is their platform for innovation and acceleration. >>So those developers are going to build a sub application versus going over here on AWS. >>Well, that's the, that's the story with Microsoft. Good enough. I know >>Again, this is we're speculating, but we're going to watch that, but that is, to me, will be the battlefield of what will determine Azure versus AWS. And I think everything else is smoke and mirrors Amazon Webster way ahead of Azure, but the TeleSign is going to be does 80 bus attract those developers on their cloud with the custom Silicon, with the integrated stack and with the purpose-built software. I mean, it's looking really good. I think they've got a really compelling story. >>I think it's less about Azure versus AWS. I mean, that's an interesting storyline and I love to talk about it, but I think they'll go back to 120 billion out of 4 trillion. That's really the, the larger opportunity for, for both Microsoft and AWS to continue to grow. Because you look at, you look at Dell with apex, you look at HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, Cisco, they've all got their own clouds. One of the things that didn't get into our article, but Adam Lipski when, when you asked him about hybrid is that hybrid cloud. When we were talking about some of the stuff they're doing, he S he said, look, that's not cloud what those guys are doing. That's not what we did. And he talked today about edge has to be AWS, not like AWS. That was the quote to use. Talk about, you know, private 5g, bringing out posts. And he gave some examples of that. The point is they, AWS is bringing its system, its architecture to the edge it's programming model infrastructure as code to the edge. Now, Kubernetes, Kubernetes does moderate that a little bit, but his point was, that's not AWS. That's not the cloud. >>Yeah. I think in summary, Dave had to wrap up what's the big trend this week is that Amazon web services is a, is a heaven environment for a developer, for the elite people who want to roll their own for the folks in it. In these other environments, you can have prefabricated purpose-built software platform to build on top of. And I think that isn't going to address the whole ease of ease of rollout. So if I'm a SAS developer, I don't, I want, I don't want to rebuild that over again. I don't want to roll my own. I'll take what you got and connects a good example. If you want to call shedder, you can take it and use it and then build on top of it and iterate on it. So I think it's more of here's a platform for you and take it. So I think that to me is the big story and that's not and think about it. How many people out there, a role in their own Amazon, you've got to be pretty strong at Amazon, uh, familiar ups to roll your own gut >>Of other quick points that he barely emphasized the primitives, the API APIs, that multiple databases, right tool for the right job, took a shot at Oracle without mentioning Oracle because they had sort of one database, but I will say this is mission critical. Oracle still owns that. Uh, they talked about a mainframe migration, tooling and runtime from mainframe compatible runtime. That's going to allow them to nip at the edges of those mainframe workloads and Oracle workloads. It, they're not going to get to the core anytime soon. They also talked about role level and cell level security. We think that's the squirrel acquisition from years ago. And then he made a statement. We have three X with Redshift price performance better than any cloud data warehouse sort of interesting shot at, at, at, at a snowflake and Databricks Databricks. So, um, anyway, yeah, >>I mean, I think, I think overall, I thought Adam did a good job. I think he didn't, uh, he didn't disappoint. Okay. But that's comfortable. I think his goal was to get through this and not have people go well, it's not Andy Jassy. I thought he did an awesome job and he did a good job. And he, he got, he got what he needed to do >>Comfortable. And he obviously leaned on some of his Pathfinder customers. NASDAQ, I thought was very impressive. United airlines dish. So, >>Okay. Cutie coverage, ninth year of the cube here at ADP reinvent, uh, 2021 is the cube. You're watching the leader in high-tech coverage. The cube.

>> Welcome back to Los Angeles. TheCUBE is live. I can't say that enough. The cube is live. We're at KubeCon Cloud Native Con 21. We've been here all day yesterday, and today and tomorrow I'm talking with lots of guests, really uncovering what's going on in the world of Kubernetes. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Nicholson. We've got some folks. Next we're going to be talking about a customer use case, which is always one of my favorite things to talk about. Please welcome Micah Coletti, the principal platform engineer at CHG healthcare, and Venkat Ramakrishnan VP of products from Portworx by Pure Storage, guys welcome to the program. >> Thank you. >> Happy to be here. >> Yeah. So Micah, first of all, let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of CHG healthcare. >> Yeah. So CHG healthcare, we're a staffing company. So we try like a little companion. So our clients are doctors and hospitals, so we help staff hospitals with temporary doctors or even permanent placing. So we deal with a lot of doctors, a lot of nursing and we're a combination of multiple companies. So CHG is the parent. So, and yeah, we're known in the industry as one of the leaders in this field and providing hospitals with high quality doctors and nurses. And, you know, our customer service is like number one, and one of the things our CEO is really focused on is now how do we make that more digital? How do we provide that same level of quality of service, but a digital experience as rich for her. >> I can imagine it was a massive need for that in the last 18 months alone. >> COVID definitely really raised that awareness up for us and the importance of that digital experience and that we need to be out there in the digital market. >> Absolutely. So you're a customer port works by pure storage, we're going to get into that, but then Venkat talk to us about what's going on, the acquisition of port works by pure storage was about a year ago. Talk to us about your VP of products what's going on. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, I think I could not say how much of a great fit for a Portworx will be part of pure storage, it's, pure itself is a very fast moving, large startup that's a dominant leader in the flash and data center space, and, you know, pure recognizes the fact that Kubernetes is the new operating system of the cloud is not how, you know, it's kind of virtualizing the cloud itself, and there's a, you know, a big burgeoning need for data management and Kubernetes and how you can kind of orchestrate workloads between your on-prem data centers and the cloud and back. So Portworx fits right into the story as complete vision of data management for our customers, and it's been phenomenal. Our business has grown as part of being part of a pure, and you know, we're looking at launching some new products as well, and it's all exciting times. >> So you must've been pretty delighted to be acquired as a startup by essentially a startup because, because although pure has reached significant milestones in the storage business and is a leader in flash storage still that that startup mindset is absolutely unique. That's not, that's not the same as being acquired by a company that's been around for a hundred years seeking to revitalize itself. >> Absolutely. >> Can you talk a little bit about that aspect? >> Yeah, So I think, you know, purist culture is a highly innovation-driven and it's a very open, flat culture, right? I mean, it's, everybody in pure is accessible. It can easily have a composition with folks and everybody has his learning mindset and Portworx is and has always been the same way. Right? So when you put these teams together, if we can create wonders, I mean, we right after the acquisition, just within a few months, we announced an integrated solution that portworx orchestrates volumes and file shares in pure splash products and then delivers as an integrated solution for our customers, and pure has a phenomenal cloud-based monitoring and management system called pure one that we integrated well into. Now, we're bringing the power of all of the observability that pure's customers are used to for all of the corporate customers, and I've been super happy, you know, delegating that capability to our customers and our customers are delighted. Now they can have a complete view all the way from Kubernetes app to the flash. and I don't think any one company in the planet can even plan they can do that. >> I think it's fair to acknowledge that pure one was observability before observability was a word that everyone used regularly. >> Yep. >> Sounds very interesting. >> Micah Talk to us about, obviously you are a customer. CHG is a customer of Portworx now Portworx by Pure Storage. Talk to us about the use case. What, what was the compellent? Was there a compelling event and from a storage perspective that led you to Portworx in the first place. >> So we beat, they began this, our CEO base came to the vision, we need to have a digital presence we need enhances. and this was even before COVID. So they brought me on board and my, my manager read glossary. We basically had this task to, how are we going to get out into the cloud? How are we going to make that happen? And we chose to follow a very much a cloud native strategy and the platform of choice, I mean, it just made sense with Kubernetes. And so when we were looking at Kubernetes, we were starting to figure out how we're doing. We knew that data is going to be a big factor. You know, being a, provide data. We're very much focused on an event driven. We're really pushing to event driven architecture. So we leverage Kafka on top of Kubernetes, but at the time we were actually leveraging Kafka with a MSK down, out in AWS, and that was just a huge cost to us. So I came on board, I had experienced with Portworx, a prior company before that, and I basically said, we need to figure out a great storage relay overlay. and the only way to do is we got to have high performance storage, we've got to have secure. We got to be able to backup and recover that storage. And the Portworx was the right match. And that allowed us to have a very smooth transition off of MSK onto Kubernetes saving us a significant amount of money per month, and just leverage that already existing hardware that our existing compute memory and just, and the, and move right to Portworx. >> Leveraging your existing investments. >> Exactly. >> Which is key, >> Very key, very key so. >> So how common are the challenges that when you guys came together with CHG, how common are the challenges? >> It's actually a, that's a great question. You know, this is, you know, I'll tell you the challenges that Micah and his team are running into is what we see a lot in the industry where people pay a ton of money, you know to other vendors are, you know, especially in some cases use some cloud native services, but they want to have control over the data. They want to control the cost and they want higher performance and they want to have, you know, there's also governance and regulatory things that they need to control better. So they want to kind of bring these services and have more control over them. Right? So now we will work very well with all of our partners, including the cloud providers, as well as, you know, on-prem and server vendors and everybody, but different customers have different kinds of needs. And Portworx gives them that flexibility. If you are a customer who want, you know, have a lot of control over your applications, the performance, the latency, and want to control costs very well and leverage your existing investments Portworx can deliver that for you in your data center. Right now, you can integrate that with pure slash and you get a complete solution, or you want to run it in cloud, and you still want to have leverage the agility of the cloud and scale Portworx delivers a solution for you as well. So it kind of not only protects their investment its future proves their architecture, you get future proving your architecture completely. So if you want to tear the cloud or burst the cloud, you have a great solution that you can continue to leverage >> Micah, when you hear future-proof and I'm a marketer. So I always go, I love to know what it means to different people. What does that mean to you in your environment? >> My environment. So a future-proof means like one of the things we've been addressing lately, that's just a real big challenge. And I'm sure it's a challenge in the industry, especially the Q and A's is upgrading our clusters. The ability to actually maintain a consistent flow with how fast Kubernetes is growing, you know, they're, they they're out. I think he cast, we leverage the cast. So it's like 121 or 122 now, and that effort to upgrade a cluster, it can be a daunting one. With Portworx, we actually were able to make that to where we could actually spin up a brand new cluster. And with Portworx shift, all our applications, services, data migrated completely over, Portworx handles all of that for us and stand up that new cluster in, in less than a day. And that effort, I mean, it would take us a week, two weeks to do so, not even man hours and time spent there, but just the reliability of being able to do that in the cost, you know, instead of standing up a new cluster and configuring it and doing all that and spending all that time, we can just really, we move to what we call blue green cut-over strategy. And Portworx is an essential piece of that. >> So Venkat, is it fair to say that there are a variety of ways that people approach Portworx from a value perspective in terms of, I know that one area that you are particularly good in is the area of backups in this environment, but then you get data management and there's a third kind of vector there. What is the third vector? >> As all of the data services, >> Data services, >> Yeah Like for example, deep database as a service on any Kubernetes cluster feed on your cloud or your on-prem data centers. >> Which data, what kind of databases are you talking about? >> I mean we're talking about anything from Reddit Kafka, Post-stress my sequel console, we are supporting. We just announced something called a Portworx Data Services Offering that essentially delivers all these databases as a service on any Kubernetes cluster that a customer can point to and lets them kind of get the automated management of the database from day one to day three, the entire life cycle, you know, through regular Kubernetes, scoop cuddle experience through APIs and SDKs and a nice slick UI that they can, you know, that's, role-based access control and all of that, that they can completely control their data and their applications through it. And you know, that's the third vector of Portworx office. >> Micah a question for you. So Portworx has been a part of pure storage? You've known it since obviously for several years before you were at CHG, you brought it to CHG. You now know it a year into being acquired by a fast paced startup. Talk to me about the relationship and some of the benefits that you're getting with Portworx as a part of pure storage? >> Well, I mean, one of the things I, you know, when I heard about the acquisition, my first thing was, I was a little bit concerned is that relationship going to change? And when we were acquiring, when we were looking at adopting Portworx, one thing I would tell my management is Portworx is not just a vendor that wants to throw a solution on you and provide some capability. They're a partner. They want to partner with you and your success in your journey and this whole cloud native journey to provide this rich digital experience in the, for not only our platform engineering team, but our Dev teams, but also be able to really accelerate the development of our services. So we can provide that digital portal for our end users. And that didn't change. If anything, that it accelerated that relationship did not change. You know, I came to Venkat with an issue. We just we're, we're dealing with, he immediately got someone on a phone call with me. And so that has not changed. So it's really exciting to see that now that they've been acquired, that they still are very much invested in the success of their customers and making sure we're successful. You know, it's not all of a sudden. I was worried I was going to have to do a whole different support PA process, and it was going to go into a black hole. Didn't happen. They still are very much involved with their customers. >> It's sounds kind of Venkat similar to what you talked about with the cultural alignment. I've known here for a long time and they're very customer centric sounds like one of the areas in which there was a very strong alignment with Portworx >> Absolutely. and Portworx has always taken pride in being customer first company. Our founders are heavily customer focused. You know, they are aligned. They want, they have always aligned. our portraits business to our customers' needs. Now Pure is a company that's maniacally focused on customers, right? I mean, that's all in a pure pounder cars and everybody cared about. And so, you know, bringing these companies together and being part of the Pure team, I kind of see how, how synergistic it is. And, you know, we have, you know, that has enabled us to serve our customer's customers even better than before. >> So I'm curious about the two of you personally, in terms of your, your histories, I'm going to assume that you didn't both just bounce out of high school into the world of Kubernetes, right? So like Lisa and I you're spanning the generations between the world of say virtualization based on x86 architecture, virtualization, where you're not, you don't have microservices, you have a full blown operating system that you're working with. Kind of talk about, you know, Micah with you first talk about what that's been like navigating that change. We were in the midst of that. Do you have advice for others that are navigating that change? >> Don't be afraid of it. You know, a lot of people want to, you know, I call it we're moving from where we're name me. We still have cats and dogs. They have a name that the VMs either whether or not they're physical boxes or their VMs to where it's more like, he'd say cattle, you know, it's like we don't own the OOS and not to be afraid of afraid of that, because change is really good. You know, the ability for me to not have to worry about patching and operating system, it's huge, you know, where I can rely on someone like EKS and, and the version and allow them to, if a CV comes out, they let me know. I go and I use their tools to be able to upgrade. So I don't have to literally worry about owning that OOS and containers as the same thing. You know, you, you know, it's all about being fault-tolerant right. And being able to be changed or where, you know, you can actually roll out a new version of a container, a base image with a lot of ease without having to go and patch a bunch of servers. I mean, patch night was hell and sorry if I could say that, but it was a nightmare, you know, but this whole world has just been a game changer with that. >> So Venkat from your perspective, you were coming at it, going into a startup, looking at the landscape in the future and seeing opportunity. What what's that been like for you? I guess the question for you is more something, Lisa and I talk about this concept of peak Kubernetes, where are we in the wave? Is this just, is this just the beginning? Are we in the thick of it? >> I think I would say we're kind of transitioning from early adopters, early majority phase in the whole, you know, crossing the chasm analogy, right? So I would say we're still early stages of this big wave. That's going to transform how infrastructure is built. Apps are apps are built and managed and run in production. I think some of the pieces, the key pieces are falling in place and maturing. There are some other pieces like observability and security, you know, kind of edge use cases need to be, you know, they're kind of going to get a lot more mature and you'll see that the cloud, as we know today, and the apps, as we know today, they're going to be radically different. And you know, if you're not building your apps and your business on this modern platform, on this modern infrastructure, you're going to be left behind. You know, I, my wife's birthday was a couple of days ago. I was telling the story to my couple of friends is that I, I used another flowers delivery website. They miss delivering the flowers on the same day, right. So they told me all kinds of excuses. Then I just went and looked up a, you know, like door dash, which is delivers, you know, and then, you know, like your food, but there's also flower delivery and door dash and I don't do I door dash flowers to her, and I can track the flower delivery all the way she did not need them, but my kids love the chocolates though. Right. So, and you know, the case in point is that you cannot be in a building, a modern business without leveraging the model tool chain and modern tool chain and how the business is going to be delivered at that thing is going to be changing dramatically. And those kinds of customer experience, if you don't deliver, you're not going to be successful in business. And Kubernetes is the fundamental technology that enables this containers is a fundamental piece of technology that enables building new businesses, you know, modernizing existing businesses. And the 5G is going to be, there's going to be new innovations. It's going to get unleashed. And again, Kubernetes and containers enable us to leverage those. And so we're still scratching the surface on this. It's big. Now, it's going to be much, much bigger, you know, as, as we go into the next couple of years. >> Speaking, scratching the surface, Micah, take us out in the last 30 seconds or so with where CHG healthcare is on institutional transformation, how is Portworx facilitating that? >> So we're, we're right in the thick of it. I mean, we are, we still have what we call the legacy. We're working on getting those, but I mean, we're really moving forward to provide that rich experience, especially with event driven platforms like Kafka and Kubernetes and partnering with Portworx is one of the key things for us with that. And AWS along with that. But we're a, and I remember I heard a talk and I can't, I can't remember her name, but he talked about how, how Pure Kubernetes is sort of like the 56K modem, right. You're hearing it and see, but it's got to get to the point where it's just there. It's just the high-speed internet and Kelsey Hightower. That's great. But yeah, and I really liked that because that's true, you know, and that's where we are. We're all in that transition where we're still early, it's still at 50. So you still want to hear note, you still want to do cube CTL. You want to learn it the hard way and do all that fun stuff. But eventually it's going to be where it's just, it's just there. And it's running everything like 5G. I mean, stripped down doing micro, you know, Kate's things like that. You know, we're going to see it in a lot of other areas and just periphery and really accelerate the industry in compute and memory and storage, and. >> Yeah, a lot of acceleration. Guys thank you. This has been a really interesting session. I always love digging into customer use cases. How CHG is really driving its evolution with Portworx. Venkat, thanks for sharing with us, What's going on with Portworx a year after the acquisition. It sounds like all good stuff. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> Pleasure. All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from Los Angeles. This is our coverage of KubeCon Cloud Native Con 21.

>>Mhm Welcome back to Los Angeles. The Cubans live, I can't say that enough. The Cubans live. We're at cu con cloud Native Con 21. We've been here all day yesterday and today and tomorrow talking with lots of gas. Really uncovering what's going on in the world of kubernetes, lisa martin here with Dave Nicholson. We've got some folks. Next we're gonna be talking about a customer use case, which is always one of my favorite things to talk about. Please welcome Michael Coletti, the principal platform engineer at CHG Healthcare and then cat from a christian VP of products from port works by pure storage. Guys, welcome to the program, Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah. So Michael, first of all, let's go ahead and start with you, give the audience an overview of CHG healthcare. >>Yeah, so CHG Healthcare were a staffing company so we sure like a locum pen and so our clients are doctors and hospitals, so we help staff hospitals with temporary doctors or even permanent placing. So we deal with a lot of doctors, a lot of nursing and we're were a combination of multiple companies to see if she is the parents. So and uh yeah, we're known in the industry is one of the leaders in this, this field and providing uh hospitals with high quality uh doctors and nurses and uh you know, our customer services like number one and one of these are Ceos really focused on is now how do we make that more digital, how we provide that same level of quality of service, but a digital experience as rich for >>I can imagine there was a massive need for that in the last 18 months alone. >>Covid definitely really raised that awareness out for us and the importance of that digital experience and that we need to be out there in the digital market. >>Absolutely. So your customer report works by pure storage, we're gonna get into that. But then can talk to us about what's going on. The acquisition of port works by peer storage was about a year ago I talked to us about your VP of product, what's going on? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, I think I could not say how much of a great fit for a port works to be part of your storage. It's uh uh Pure itself is a very fast moving large start up that's a dominant leader in a flash and data center space. And you know, pure recognizes the fact that Cuban it is is the new operating system of the cloud is now how you know, it's kind of virtualizing the cloud itself and there is a, you know, a big burgeoning need for data management in communities and how you can kind of orchestrate work lords between your on prem data centers in the cloud and back. So port books fits right into the story as complete vision of data management for our customers and uh spend phenomenal or business has grown as part of being part of Pure and uh you know, we're looking at uh launching some new products as well and it's all exciting times. >>So you must have been pretty delighted to be acquired as a startup by essentially a startup because because although pure has reached significant milestones in the storage business and is a leader in flash storage still, that, that startup mindset is there, that's unique, that's not, that's not the same as being acquired by a company that's been around for 100 years seeking to revitalize >>itself. Can >>you talk a little bit about that >>aspect? So I think it will uh, Purest culture is highly innovation driven and it's a very open flat culture. Right? I mean everybody impure is accessible, it can easily have a conversation with folks and everybody has his learning mindset and Port works is and has always been in the same way. Right? So when you put these teams together, if we can create wonders, I mean we, right after that position, just within a few months we announced an integrated solution that Port works orchestrates volumes and she file shares in Pure flash products and then delivers as an integrated solution for our customers. And Pure has a phenomenal uh, cloud based monitoring and management system called Pure one that we integrated well into. Now we're bringing the power of all of the observe ability that Purest customers are used to for all of the partners customers and having super happy, you know, delivering that capability to our customers and our customers are delighted now they can have a complete view all the way from community is an >>app to the >>flash and I don't think any one company on the planet can even climb, they can do that. >>I think, I think it's fair to acknowledge that pure one was observe ability before observe ability was a word. Exactly one used regularly. So that's very interesting. >>I could talk to us about obviously you are a customer CHD as a customer of court works now Port works by peer storage. Talk to us about the use case, what what was the compelling? It was their compelling event and from a storage perspective that that led you to Port works in the >>first so we be, they began this our Ceo basically in the vision, we we need to have a digital presence, we need and hazards and this was even before Covid, so they brought me on board and my my manager read uh glass or he we basically had this task to how are we going to get out into the cloud, how we're going to make that happen And we we chose to follow very much cloud native strategy and the platform of choice. I mean it just made sense with kubernetes and so when we were looking at kubernetes, we're starting to figure out how we're doing, we knew that data is going to be a big factor, you know, um being to provide data, we're very much focused on an event driven, were really pushing to event driven architecture. So we leverage Kafka on top of kubernetes, but at the time we were actually leveraging Kafka with M S K down out in a W S and that was just a huge cost to us. So I came on board, I had experienced with poor works prior company before that and I basically said we need to figure out a great storage away overlay. And the only way to do is we gotta have high performance storage, we've got to have secure, we gotta be able to back up and recover that storage and the poor works was the right match and that allowed us to have a very smooth transition off of M S K onto kubernetes, saving us, it's a significant amount of money per month and just leverage that already existing hardware that are existing, compute memory and just in the and move right to port works, >>leveraging your existing investments. >>Exactly which is key. Very, very key. So, >>so been kept, how common are the challenges that when you guys came together with the HD, how common are the challenges? It's actually, >>that's a great question, you know, this is, I'll tell you the challenges that Michael and his team are running into is what we see a lot in the, in the industry where people pay a ton of money, you know, to, you know, to to other vendors or especially in some cases use some cloud native services, but they want to have control over the data. They want to control the cost and they want higher performance and they want to have, you know, there's also governance and regulatory things that they need to control better. So they want to kind of bring these services and have more control over them. Right? So now we will work very well with all of our partners including the cloud providers as well as uh, you know, an from several vendors and everybody but different customers are different kinds of needs and port works gives them the flexibility if you are a customer who want, you know, have a lot of control over your applications, the performance of the agency and want to control cars very well in leveraging existing investments board works can deliver that for you in your data center right now you can integrate it with pure slash and you get a complete solution or you won't run it in cloud and you still want to have leverage the agility of the cloud and scale for books delivers a solution for you as well. So it kind of not only protects their investment in future proves their architecture, you get future proving your architecture completely. So if you want to tear the cloud or burst the cloud, you have a great solution that you can continue to leverage >>when you hear a future proof and I'm a marketer. So I always go, I love to know what it means to different people, what does that mean to you in your environment? >>My environment. So a future proof means like one of the things we've been addressing lately, that's just a real big challenge and I'm sure it's a challenge in the industry, especially Q and A's is upgrading our clusters ability to actually maintain a consistent flow with how fast kubernetes is growing, you know, they they're out I think yes, we leverage eks so it's like 1 21 or 1 22 now, uh that effort to upgrade a cluster, it can be a daunting one with port works. We actually were able to make that to where we could actually spin up a brand new cluster and with port work shift, all our application services, data migrated completely over poor works, handles all that for us and stand up that new cluster in less than a day. And that effort, it would take us a week, two weeks to do so not even man hours the time spent there, but just the reliability of being able to do that and the cost, you know, instead of standing up a new cluster and configuring it and doing all that and spending all that time, we can just really, we move to what we call blue green cut over strategy and port works is an essential piece of that. >>So is it fair to say that there are a variety of ways that people approach port works from a, from a value perspective in terms of, I I know that one area that you are particularly good in is the area of backups in this environment, but then you get data management and there's a third kind of vector there. What is the third vector? >>Yeah, it's all of the data services. Data services, like for example, database as a service on any kubernetes cluster paid on your cloud or you're on from data centers, which >>data, what kind of databases >>you were talking about? Anything from Red is Kafka Postgres, my sequel, you know, council were supporting, we just announced something called port books, data services offering that essentially delivers all these databases as a service on any kubernetes cluster uh that that a customer can point to unless than kind of get the automated management of the database on day one to day three, the entire life cycle. Um you know, through regular communities, could curdle experience through Api and SDK s and a nice slick ui that they can, you know, just role based access control and all of that, that they can completely control their data and their applications through it. And, you know, that's the third vector of potatoes Africans >>like a question for you. So what works has been a part of peer storage? You've known it since obviously for several years before you were a c h G, you brought up to see H G, you now know it a year into being acquired by a fast paced startup. Talk to me about the relationship and some of the benefits that you're getting with port works as a part of pure storage. >>Well, I mean one of the things, you know, when, when I heard about the accusation, my first thing was I was a little bit concerned is that relationship going to change and when we were acquiring, when we're looking at a doctor and Poor works, One thing I would tell my management is poor works is not just a vendor that wants to throw a solution on you and provide some capability there, partner, they want to partner with you and your success in your journey and this whole cloud native journey to provide this rich digital experience for not only our platform engineering team, but our dev teams, but also be able to really accelerate the development of our services so we can provide that digital portal for our end users and that didn't change. If anything that accelerated that that relationship did not change. You know, I came to the cat with an issue we just, we're dealing with, he immediately got someone on the phone call with me and so that has not changed. So it's really exciting to see that now that they've been acquired that they still are very much invested in the success of their customers and making sure we're successful. You know, it's not all of a sudden I was worried I was gonna have to do a whole different support process and it's gonna go into a black hole didn't happen. They still are very much involved with their customers. And >>that sounds kind of similar to what you talked about with the cultural alignment I've known here for a long time and they're very customer centric. Sounds like one of the areas in which there was a very strong alignment with port works. >>Absolutely important works has always taken pride in being customer. First company. Our founders are heavily customer focused. Uh, you know, they are aligned. They want, they have always aligned uh, the portraits business to our customers needs. Uh Pure is a company that's men. I actually focused on customers, right? I mean, that's all, you know, purist founder cause and everybody care about and so, you know, bringing these companies together and being part of the pure team. I kind of see how synergistic it is. And you know, we have, you know, that has enabled us to serve our customers customers even better than before. >>So, I'm curious about the two of you personally, in terms of your histories, I'm going to assume that you didn't both just bounce out of high school into the world of kubernetes, right? So like lisa and I your spanning the generations between the world of, say, virtualization based on X 86 architecture and virtualization where you can have microservices, you have a full blown operating system that you're working with, that kind of talk about, you know, Michael with you first talk about what that's been like navigating that change. We were in the midst of that, Do you have advice for others that are navigating that change? >>Don't be afraid of it, you know, a lot of people want to, you know, I call it, we're moving from where we're uh naming, we still have cats and dogs, they have a name, the VMS either whether or not their physical boxes or their VMS to where it's more like it's a cattle, you know, it's like we don't own the Os and not to be afraid afraid of that because change is really good. You know, the ability for me to not have to worry about patching and operating system is huge, you know, where I can rely on someone like the chaos and and the version and allow them to, if CV comes out, they let me know I go and I use their tools to be able to upgrade. So I don't have to literally worry about owning that Os and continues the same thing. You know, you, you, you know, it's all about being fault tolerant, right? And being able to be changed where you can actually brought a new version of a container, a base image with a lot of these without having to go and catch a bunch of servers, I mean patch night was held, I'm sorry if I could say that, but it was a nightmare, you know, but this whole world has just been a game changer >>with that. So Van cut from your perspective, you were coming at it, going into a startup, looking at the landscape in the future and seeing opportunity, um what what what's that been like for you? I guess the question for you is more something lisa and I talk about this concept of peak kubernetes, where are we in the wave, is this just is this just the beginning, are we in the thick of it? >>Yeah, I think I would say we're kind of transitioning from earlier doctors too early majority face in the whole, you know, um crossing the chasm analogy. Right, so uh I would say we're still the early stages of this big wave that's going to transform how infrastructure is built, apps are, apps are built and managed and run in production. Um I think some of the uh pieces, the key pieces are falling in place and maturing, uh there are some other pieces like observe ability and security, uh you know, kind of edge use cases need to be, you know, they're kind of going to get a lot more mature and you'll see that the cloud as we know today and the apps as we know today, they're going to be radically different and you know, if you're not building your apps and your business on this modern platform, on this modern infrastructure, you're gonna be left behind. Um, you know, I, my wife's birthday was a couple of days ago. I was telling this story a couple of friends is that I r I used another flowers delivery website. Uh they missed delivering the flowers on the same day, right? So when they told me all kinds of excuses, then I just went and looked up, you know, like door dash, which delivers uh, you know, and then, you know, like your food, but there's also flower delivery, indoor dash and I don't do it, I door dash flowers to her and I can track the flower does all the way she did not eat them, okay, You need them. But my kids love the chocolates though. So, you know, the case in point is that you cannot be, you know, building a modern business without leveraging the moral toolchain and modern toolchain and how the business is going to be delivered. That that thing is going to be changing dramatically. And those kind of customer experience, if you don't deliver, uh, you're not gonna be successful in business and communities is the fundamental technology that enables these containers. It's a fundamental piece of technology that enables building new businesses, you know, modernizing existing businesses and the five G is gonna be, there's gonna be new innovations that's going to get unleashed. And uh, again, communities and containers enable us to leverage those. And so we're still scratching the surface on this, it's big now, it's going to be much, much bigger as we go to the next couple of years. >>Speaking of scratching the surface, Michael, take us out in the last 30 seconds or so with where CHG healthcare is on its digital transformation. How is port works facilitating that? >>So we're right in the thick of it. I mean we are we still have what we call the legacy, we're working on getting those. But I mean we're really moving forward um to provide that rich experience, especially with inventing driven platforms like Kafka and Kubernetes and partnering with port works is one of the key things for us with that and a W s along with that. But we're, and I remember I heard a talk and I can't, I can't remember me but he he talked about how, how kubernetes just sort of like 56 K. Modem, You're hearing it, see, but it's got to get to the point where it's just there, it's just the high speed internet and Kelsey Hightower, That's who Great. Yeah, and I really like that because that's true, you know, and that's where we're on that transition, where we're still early, it's still that 50. So you still want to hear a note, you still want to do cube Cto, you want to learn it the hard way and do all that fun stuff, but eventually it's gonna be where it's just, it's just there and it's running everything like five G. I mean stripped down doing Micro K. It's things like that, you know, we're gonna see it in a lot of other areas and just proliferate and really accelerate uh the industry and compute and memory and, and storage and >>yeah, a lot of acceleration guys, thank you. This has been a really interesting session. I always love digging into customer use cases how C H. G is really driving its evolution with port works Venkat. Thanks for sharing with us. What's going on with port works a year after the acquisition. It sounds like all good stuff. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's been fun, our >>pleasure. Alright for Dave Nicholson. I'm lisa martin. You're watching the cube live from Los Angeles. This is our coverage of Yukon cloud native Con 21 mhm

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>>Yeah, yeah, hello again and welcome to our last session of the day before we head to the meat. The experts roundtables how T Mobile is building a data driven organization with thought spot and whip prone. Today we'll hear how T Mobile is leaving Excel hell by enabling all employees with self service analytics so they can get instant answers on curated data. We're lucky to be closing off the day with these two speakers. Evo Benzema, manager of business intelligence services at T Mobile Netherlands, and Sanjeev Chowed Hurry, lead architect AT T Mobile, Netherlands, from Whip Chrome. Thank you both very much for being with us today, for today's session will cover how mobile telco markets have specific dynamics and what it waas that T Mobile was facing. We'll also go over the Fox spot and whip pro solution and how they address T mobile challenges. Lastly, but not least, of course, we'll cover Team Mobil's experience and learnings and takeaways that you can use in your business without further ado Evo, take us away. >>Thank you very much. Well, let's first talk a little bit about T Mobile, Netherlands. We are part off the larger deutsche Telekom Group that ISS operating in Europe and the US We are the second largest mobile phone company in the Netherlands, and we offer the full suite awful services that you expect mobile landline in A in an interactive TV. And of course, Broadbent. Um so this is what the Mobile is appreciation at at the moment, a little bit about myself. I'm already 11 years at T Mobile, which is we part being part of the furniture. In the meantime, I started out at the front line service desk employee, and that's essentially first time I came into a touch with data, and what I found is that I did not have any possibility of myself to track my performance. Eso I build something myself and here I saw that this need was there because really quickly, roughly 2020 off my employer colleagues were using us as well. This was a little bit where my efficient came from that people need to have access to data across the organization. Um, currently, after 11 years running the BR Services Department on, I'm driving this transformation now to create a data driven organization with a heavy customer focus. Our big goal. Our vision is that within two years, 8% of all our employees use data on a day to day basis to make their decisions and to improve their decision. So over, tuition Chief. Now, thank >>you. Uh, something about the proof. So we prize a global I T and business process consulting and delivery company. Uh, we have a comprehensive portfolio of services with presents, but in 61 countries and maybe 1000 plus customers. As we're speaking with Donald, keep customers Region Point of view. We primary look to help our customers in reinventing the business models with digital first approach. That's how we look at our our customers toe move to digitalization as much as possible as early as possible. Talking about myself. Oh, I have little over two decades of experience in the intelligence and tell cope landscape. Calico Industries. I have worked with most of the telcos totally of in us in India and in Europe is well now I have well known cream feed on brownfield implementation off their house on big it up platforms. At present, I'm actively working with seminal data transform initiative mentioned by evil, and we are actively participating in defining the logical and physical footprint for future architectures for criminal. I understand we are also, in addition, taking care off and two and ownership off off projects, deliveries on operations, back to you >>so a little bit over about the general telco market dynamics. It's very saturated market. Everybody has mobile phones already. It's the growth is mostly gone, and what you see is that we have a lot of trouble around customer brand loyalty. People switch around from provider to provider quite easily, and new customers are quite expensive. So our focus is always to make customer loyal and to keep them in the company. And this is where the opportunities are as well. If we increase the retention of customers or reduce what we say turned. This is where the big potential is for around to use of data, and we should not do this by only offering this to the C suite or the directors or the mark managers data. But this needs to be happening toe all employees so that they can use this to really help these customers and and services customers is situated. This that we can create his loyalty and then This is where data comes in as a big opportunity going forward. Yeah. So what are these challenges, though? What we're facing two uses the data. And this is, uh, these air massive over our big. At least let's put it like that is we have a lot of data. We create around four billion new record today in our current platforms. The problem is not everybody can use or access this data. You need quite some technical expertise to add it, or they are pre calculated into mawr aggregated dashboard. So if you have a specific question, uh, somebody on the it side on the buy side should have already prepared something so that you can get this answer. So we have a huge back lock off questions and data answers that currently we cannot answer on. People are limited because they need technical expertise to use this data. These are the challenges we're trying to solve going forward. >>Uh, so the challenge we see in the current landscape is T mobile as a civil mentioned number two telco in Europe and then actually in Netherlands. And then we have a lot of acquisitions coming in tow of the landscape. So overall complexity off technical stack increases year by year and acquisition by acquisition it put this way. So we at this time we're talking about Claudia Irureta in for Matic Uh, aws and many other a complex silo systems. We actually are integrated where we see multiple. In some cases, the data silos are also duplicated. So the challenge here is how do we look into this data? How do we present this data to business and still ensure that Ah, mhm Kelsey of the data is reliable. So in this project, what we looked at is we curated that around 10% off the data of us and made it ready for business to look at too hot spot. And this also basically help us not looking at the A larger part of the data all together in one shot. What's is going to step by step with manageable set of data, obviously manages the time also and get control on cost has. >>So what did we actually do and how we did? Did we do it? And what are we going to do going forward? Why did we chose to spot and what are we measuring to see if we're successful is is very simply, Some stuff I already alluded to is usual adoption. This needs to be a tool that is useable by everybody. Eso This is adoption. The user experience is a major key to to focus on at the beginning. Uh, but lastly, and this is just also cold hard. Fact is, it needs to save time. It needs to be faster. It needs to be smarter than the way we used to do it. So we focused first on setting up the environment with our most used and known data set within the company. The data set that is used already on the daily basis by a large group. We know what it's how it works. We know how it acts on this is what we decided to make available fire talksport this cut down the time around, uh, data modeling a lot because we had this already done so we could go right away into training users to start using this data, and this is already going on very successfully. We have now 40 heavily engaged users. We go went life less than a month ago, and we see very successful feedback on user experience. We had either yesterday, even a beautiful example off loading a new data set and and giving access to user that did not have a training for talk sport or did not know what thoughts, what Waas. And we didn't in our he was actively using this data set by building its own pin boards and asking questions already. And this shows a little bit the speed off delivery we can have with this without, um, much investments on data modeling, because that's part was already done. So our second stage is a little bit more ambitious, and this is making sure that all this information, all our information, is available for frontline uh, employees. So a customer service but also chills employees that they can have data specifically for them that make them their life easier. So this is performance KP ice. But it could also be the beautiful word that everybody always uses customer Terry, 60 fuse. But this is giving the power off, asking questions and getting answers quickly to everybody in the company. That's the big stage two after that, and this is going forward a little bit further in the future and we are not completely there yet, is we also want Thio. Really? After we set up the government's properly give the power to add your own data to our curated data sets that that's when you've talked about. And then with that, we really hope that Oh, our ambition and our plan is to bring this really to more than 800 users on a daily basis to for uses on a daily basis across our company. So this is not for only marketing or only technology or only one segment. This is really an application that we want to set in our into system that works for everybody. And this is our ambition that we will work through in these three, uh, steps. So what did we learn so far? And and Sanjeev, please out here as well, But one I already said, this is no which, which data set you start. This is something. Start with something. You know, start with something that has a wide appeal to more than one use case and make sure that you make this decision. Don't ask somebody else. You know what your company needs? The best you should be in the driver seat off this decision. And this is I would be saying really the big one because this will enable you to kickstart this really quickly going forward. Um, second, wellness and this is why we introduce are also here together is don't do this alone. Do this together with, uh I t do this together with security. Do this together with business to tackle all these little things that you don't think about yourself. Maybe security, governance, network connections and stuff like that. Make sure that you do this as a company and don't try to do this on your own, because there's also again it's removes. Is so much obstacles going forward? Um, lastly, I want to mention is make sure that you measure your success and this is people in the data domain sometimes forget to measure themselves. Way can make sure everybody else, but we forget ourselves. But really try to figure out what makes its successful for you. And we use adoption percentages, usual experience, surveys and and really calculations about time saved. We have some rough calculations that we can calculate changes thio monetary value, and this will save us millions in years. by just automating time that is now used on, uh, now to taken by people on manual work. So, do you have any to adhere? A swell You, Susan, You? >>Yeah. So I'll just pick on what you want to mention about. Partner goes live with I t and other functions. But that is a very keating, because from my point of view, you see if you can see that the data very nice and data quality is also very clear. If we have data preparing at the right level, ready to be consumed, and data quality is taken, care off this feel 30 less challenges. Uh, when the user comes and questioned the gator, those are the things which has traded Quiz it we should be sure about before we expose the data to the Children. When you're confident about your data, you are confident that the user will also get the right numbers they're looking for and the number they have. Their mind matches with what they see on the screen. And that's where you see there. >>Yeah, and that that that again helps that adoption, and that makes it so powerful. So I fully agree. >>Thank you. Eva and Sanjeev. This is the picture perfect example of how a thought spot can get up and running, even in a large, complex organization like T Mobile and Sanjay. Thank you for sharing your experience on how whip rose system integration expertise paved the way for Evo and team to realize value quickly. Alright, everyone's favorite part. Let's get to some questions. Evil will start with you. How have your skill? Data experts reacted to thought spot Is it Onley non technical people that seem to be using the tool or is it broader than that? You may be on. >>Yes, of course, that happens in the digital environment. Now this. This is an interesting question because I was a little bit afraid off the direction off our data experts and are technically skilled people that know how to work in our fight and sequel on all these things. But here I saw a lot of enthusiasm for the tool itself and and from two sides, either to use it themselves because they see it's a very easy way Thio get to data themselves, but also especially that they see this as a benefit, that it frees them up from? Well, let's say mundane questions they get every day. And and this is especially I got pleasantly surprised with their reaction on that. And I think maybe you can also say something. How? That on the i t site that was experienced. >>Well, uh, yeah, from park department of you, As you mentioned, it is changing the way business is looking at. The data, if you ask me, have taken out talkto data rather than looking at it. Uh, it is making the interactivity that that's a keyword. But I see that the gap between the technical and function folks is also diminishing, if I may say so over a period of time, because the technical folks now would be able to work with functional teams on the depth and coverage of the data, rather than making it available and looking at the technical side off it. So now they can have a a fair discussion with the functional teams on. Okay, these are refute. Other things you can look at because I know this data is available can make it usable for you, especially the time it takes for the I t. G. When graduate dashboard, Uh, that time can we utilize toe improve the quality and reliability of the data? That's yeah. See the value coming. So if you ask me to me, I see the technical people moving towards more of a technical functional role. Tools such as >>That's great. I love that saying now we can talk to data instead of just looking at it. Um Alright, Evo, I think that will finish up with one last question for you that I think you probably could speak. Thio. Given your experience, we've seen that some organizations worry about providing access to data for everyone. How do you make sure that everyone gets the same answer? >>Yes. The big data Girlfriends question thesis What I like so much about that the platform is completely online. Everything it happens online and everything is terrible. Which means, uh, in the good old days, people will do something on their laptop. Beirut at a logic to it, they were aggregated and then they put it in a power point and they will share it. But nobody knew how this happened because it all happened offline. With this approach, everything is transparent. I'm a big I love the word transparency in this. Everything is available for everybody. So you will not have a discussion anymore. About how did you get to this number or how did you get to this? So the question off getting two different answers to the same question is removed because everything happens. Transparency, online, transparent, online. And this is what I think, actually, make that question moot. Asl Long as you don't start exporting this to an offline environment to do your own thing, you are completely controlling, complete transparent. And this is why I love to share options, for example and on this is something I would really keep focusing on. Keep it online, keep it visible, keep it traceable. And there, actually, this problem then stops existing. >>Thank you, Evelyn. Cindy, That was awesome. And thank you to >>all of our presenters. I appreciate your time so much. I hope all of you at home enjoyed that as much as I did. I know a lot of you did. I was watching the chat. You know who you are. I don't think that I'm just a little bit in awe and completely inspired by where we are from a technological perspective, even outside of thoughts about it feels like we're finally at a time where we can capitalize on the promise that cloud and big data made to us so long ago. I loved getting to see Anna and James describe how you can maximize the investment both in time and money that you've already made by moving your data into a performance cloud data warehouse. It was cool to see that doubled down on with the session, with AWS seeing a direct query on Red Shift. And even with something that's has so much scale like TV shows and genres combining all of that being able to search right there Evo in Sanjiv Wow. I mean being able to combine all of those different analytics tools being able to free up these analysts who could do much more important and impactful work than just making dashboards and giving self service analytics to so many different employees. That's incredible. And then, of course, from our experts on the panel, I just think it's so fascinating to see how experts that came from industries like finance or consulting, where they saw the imperative that you needed to move to thes third party data sets enriching and organizations data. So thank you to everyone. It was fascinating. I appreciate everybody at home joining us to We're not quite done yet. Though. I'm happy to say that we after this have the product roadmap session and that we are also then going to move into hearing and being able to ask directly our speakers today and meet the expert session. So please join us for that. We'll see you there. Thank you so much again. It was really a pleasure having you.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome to the Cubes coverage of VMRO 2020 Virtual this The Cube Virtual I'm John for your host, covering all the action for VM World not in person. This year it's virtual, so we're bringing you the virtual interviews remotely. We've got two great guest here. Marc Lemire, senior vice president general manager of the Cloud Services business unit at VM Ware and David Brown is the vice president for two at AWS Amazon Web services. Both Cube alumni's great to see you guys remotely Thanks. Coming on eso i first vm worlds not face to face. Usually it's great event reinvents Also gonna be virtual again. It's, you know, we're gonna get the content out there, but people still gotta know the news is gonna know what's going on. Um, I remember three years ago, I interviewed Pat Kelsey and Andy Jassy in San Francisco on the big announcement of AWS and VM Ware Uh, vm ware on a W s. Really? Since then, what a great partnership Not only has VM where have cleaned up their clarity around cloud. But the business performance mark has been phenomenal. Congratulations. All the data that we're reporting shows customers are leaning into it heavily Great adoption and super happy success. A US congratulations as well for great partnership. Mark three years, Uh, with the industry defining partnership. Ah, lot of people were skeptical. We're on the right side of history, I gotta say, we called >>it. That's right. It's an update. Yeah, No, look, we're super excited. Like you said, It's the third year anniversary of this game changing partnership and look, the relationship could not be stronger right across engineering the product teams to go to market teams really getting stronger and deeper every day. And at the end of the day, you know, of course, what it's about is innovating on behalf of our customers, delivering compelling new capabilities that allow them thio, migrate and modernize. And, you know, look, we're just really pleased with the partnership, right? And I think, as a result of that depth of joint engineering, building and delivering the service together, you know, we're proud to be able to say that it addresses are preferred public cloud partner for the Starbase workloads. >>You know, I remember at the time David talking to Terry Wise Ah, native West Side and Andy, of course on Ragu the architect for this vision of the partnership. And this changed how vm Ware has been doing partnerships on. I want to talk about that because I think that's a great use case of what I call the new cloud native reality that everyone's living in. But before we get there, Mark, there's some news tied around AWS and VM. Where could you take a minute to, uh, share the news around what's going on with VM World 10 0 You got connect. You got all kinds of enhancements. Just the update on the news. >>Yeah, sure. So you know, we continue Thio, listen closely to our customers and continue to deliver them new value, new capabilities and a few things we're gonna highlight at being world. The first is we've heard from many customers, you know, they love the ability to rapidly migrate their visa service workloads to the AWS Cloud and VMC on AWS is really a game changer. From that perspective on dso that continues to be really, really compelling use case for many customers. But what they've also said to us is, Look, it's not just about migrating to the cloud. It's also about migrating and then modernizing. And so, together with AWS, we have really brought together the richest set of tools for our customers to enable them to modernize those applications. Of course, we've talked about before. Customers have access to the full rich set of AWS services on Ben within VM or called on AWS. We're now announcing support for native kubernetes capabilities within VM Ware Cloud in eight of us taking advantage of the VM Ware Tansy Communities, good service. So we're really excited about bringing that that service in particular to our joint customers and then three other kind of key innovation that we're going to be talking about is around networking, right? And as our customer environments get larger and larger and they're looking to create a fairly sophisticated apologies between their on Prem Data Center between multiple VMC and AWS instances and between perhaps multiple native aws vpc s, we've done a lot of work together to really simplify the way that customers can connect all those environments together. Onda, maybe Dave wants toe talk a little about that. >>It did chime in. What's What's the news on your end to? What's the relationship and an update from the Amazon side for VM World? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the partnership has just been incredible working with being where Right, Right? Right from four years ago, when we first started with the idea of what could be a W s and beyond where do together. I think we've seen really deep engineering engagement, but also leadership engagement on support from leadership on both sides was really set. Set us up for the partnership that we have today, which has been phenomenal. You know, Mark was just talking about the transit connect feature that beyond whereas adopting and what you really seen, there is years of innovation on the networking side of the sea to where we've really understood deeply what customers need from a network. Understood the fact that they're trying to recreate some of those large networked apologies that they're doing on premise on, then trying to support them in a cloud way of supporting them in a cloud about, like, way. And so, you know, transit gateways to service under the hood that we released about two years ago. It reinvent. And so what we've been doing with being where he's working out. What is Transit Gateway mean within the VM Ware environment? And so really bringing customers that that rich connectivity that they need? You know, whether it's between the BBC's between the VM Ware environments, even back to on Prem or between regions on DSO. That's what transit connect now on being where it's gonna be utilizing and bringing to customers we're pretty excited about. You know what that means for our customers? >>You know, one of the trends I see coming out all the announcements. David, I want to get your thoughts on it because we talked briefly a few months ago, uh, for your summit virtual. But I want you to kind of put it in context of VM Ware because you're seeing virtualization of physical things. You know, Nick's with Project Monterey and all that stuff with within video and software. You see to you guys have seen this vision not just compute, but you talk about networking. You know, you have the really the first time this convergence of physical own software virtual and This is not new to you guys. I know this is the premise of Amazon Cloud. First, you have the building blocks as three NBC too. But now a slew of other services. But this trend is gonna continue. Certainly with covert and work at home, there's mawr need firm or compute more different kinds of compute. You got the physical layer from the network of the devices. This isn't gonna go away. I mean, I would just need some interviews about Space Force, and they're talking about software to find, um, devices you can't do break fix in the space. So you know all this is gonna be done with software and this idea of the physical virtual coming together I mean, I know I love the Virtual Cube were not in person, which we were. But this virtualization trend around the hardware this is this'll is all about the sea, but the sea spinning for years. How does that relate >>to be inward customer? So, I mean, I think the VM ware customers experience which realization right long before ec2 was around as well. When being we're back in the day with being workstation, uh, it's it's kind of central to what they've been able to do, you know, being able to virtualized environments, being able to stand up environments ready very quickly on a physical machine is what the English board for the customer, Easy to started in a similar place. You know, the strength of the C two is being able to get a B m in a few minutes. Andi, you know, we've just grown the what we can support in a virtualized world. So you think about where we started with very simple machines, you know, today is supporting things like HPC and and advanced. You know, accelerators like GP use. And if p g A s and so we've already pushed the virtual world now, interestingly enough, you know, Vienna is obviously doing the same thing with their hyper visor. You know, many, many happy customers there. The really interesting thing it was through the innovation that we were doing on the easy to side to work out. How do we really get the most out of virtualization? Historically, virtualization is being played with things like jitter and just performance. You couldn't really get the network performance there with CPU would stall and those are sort of the old issues. The cloud in the innovation we've been doing is largely gotten rid of those. And so it's actually almost the the the ability to remove the virtualization from easy to. That really was the ingredient that enabled us to allow VM Ware to run on this. And so that's where it all started. Back in late 2016 we started to work with my team saying, You know, we've actually built the ability through our nitro system, um, to not require our virtualization layer. And then we could replace that virtualization with the VM Ware virtualization layer and that that set us up for what we have today, right? That that made VM ware on AWS a reality that gave the VM Ware customer you know, the full VM ware virtualization support, which is what the applications have been. Both Paul, that's what they've really come. Thio love. I don't want to change all of that when they moved to the cloud and so being able to move those workloads to the cloud for being where you know on on AWS and and get the benefit of great hardware design together with the great opera visor from being where obviously, it's a virtual the end of the day with a lot of innovation that we need to make him that >>mark. I wanna get your thoughts on this because I remember when we again years ago when we covered it again on the right side of history of the prediction, we said It's gonna be a great thing, afraid of us. And the end where some of the other commentary was at that time was Oh, my God. VM was lost at the capitulated Amazon is gonna suck all the thousands and thousands of VM where customers into the cloud and they're gonna eat him up in Vienna. Where is gonna be sitting there? Uh, you know, inside of the road. Okay. Not the case. Your business performance has been exceptional. Okay? The customers have been resonating with the offering. It's been a win win. Can you talk about the business momentum and how this continues to go? Because again, everyone got it wrong on that side. This has been exactly how you guys had heated up. I mean, a little bit here, and they're not exactly, But from a business perspective, it hit the mark. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah. No. Look, we've been incredibly pleased that the customer adoption that we've seen for the service, um, in fact, you know, the total workload count on the service has increased by over 140% versus this time last year, right? So clearly, customers are adopting the service at a large scale on growing rapidly. But I think you sort of feel that killed that back a little bit, right? It's It's really driven by three use cases and the value that we're able to deliver the customers right? And so if you're a customer, that's gotta be severe based workload in your own data center, and you want to move to the AWS Cloud. You know the fastest, lowest cost lowest Chris Way to move that workload is using VM Ware Cloud on AWS, right? And so it's that use case. It's powering a lot of that consumption. Another interesting use case that Xdrive in a lot of demand and that we continue to invest and expand is disaster recovery, right? So there's some customers that still want to run some more clothes in their own data centers, but they'd like to build leverage the public cloud as a target for disaster recovery. And you think about it you're talking about, you know, Cloud delivered as a service and the elasticity and all of those benefits. Those really playoff strongly in the d r use case where you Onley really want to spend up that capacity in the scenario where you actually need it, right in the case of a natural disaster. And so VM were recently acquired a company called Atrium and we're using that technology to enable a new service we call VM Ware. Cloud D are on top of the VMC on AWS offering, and this is a really powerful capability because it allows our customers to significantly reduce the cost of disaster recovery by taking advantage of AWS is low cost s three storage, combined with some unique capabilities in the day trip service that allows us to store the V M. D. K. Is very cost effectively on the next three storage. And then, in the case of a disaster, we can spin up those hosts. You know, they've talked about the nitro host. I've been spin up those bare metal host with the being more hyper visor on it and automatically restart those workloads without requiring any. VM conversion is because, of course, it's all all these fear based, right? So you know, it's so we're really pleased with the business performance, but you know, sort of behind that, of course, is the value that we can deliver to our joint customers together. >>You know, the integration thing is interesting again. I think the success is that there's a partnership at the highest levels and trickles down into engineering. David, talk about what's next for AWS because, you know, after cloud, you've got cloud native integrations. They're gonna be needed across more partners and more customers. Um, but they don't wanna do the heavy lifting, right? So So if I'm a customer like, hey, you know what? I just want Mawr Cloud scale. I want more cloud capabilities, but I don't want to do all this integration. How does how does Amazon view that conversation? Because again, that's one of the things that every interview, every reinvent every time I talk to Andy and the team. It's undifferentiated, heavy lifting what our customers asking for free from from you guys. VM, where customers and What's the What's your thoughts on this? What do you guys thinking about right now? >>Absolutely. I think market head on a couple of key points there as well or at the customer in this case, off. I have a workload today that I run in my data center or running a cola facility, whatever it might be. And I run it for many years, Um, in many cases working with customers in industries like healthcare and finance. You know, where they've actually had these thes applications qualified or certified? I'm to actually one on that hardware. And so, you know, requiring them to move to a different hyper visor is obviously a ready they'd lift and may slow down the ultimate migration to the cloud. Um And so having vm ware cloud on AWS and the ability to say to those customers, you know, just bring your application and you'll workload and and honestly the benefit of the entire ecosystem that VM Ware provides and come and enjoy that on AWS and burst into aws eso that's just been enormously beneficial for our in customer, For AWS is probably aware. I think that's the thing that really makes the partnership incredibly strong. And from there, you know, these customers can pivot. And so one of the things that we've been doing together with Vienna, where is ongoing innovation? Right. So we recently just launched, um, support for our I three n uh storage instance type, which offers up to 50% discount storage per gig with VM ware. And there's a lot that went into that behind the scenes to make sure that that instance type is perfectly tuned for what VM were needed for their end customer. We're very excited to get that out. There are many, many customers so excited about the benefit that that brings to them, right? So they're getting all the benefit of AWS innovation while they keep the benefits that they've been enjoying on the VM Ware side. Um, and you know, that speaks to the largest sort of approach that AWS has taken in in several industries across several industries. Right being where, I think is probably the best example of that. But if you look at many other areas like our networking products, customers will often come to us and say, you know, I love using a certain type of load balance. So I love using this firewall. Um, you know, within my environment. And we have great partnerships of all those companies to say if your customer, while joint customer, wants to use whatever appliance, whatever application, you know, we have a full market place full of thousands of applications that are all certified to run on us. We want to make sure we can meet those customers where they are and simplify the immigration story for them as much as we can. >>All right, So I gotta put you guys on the spot. Mark will start with you, but you can't get the same answer. Um, to the same question. The question is, what are the customers most happy with with the partnership from a feature perspective? What's the one? What? What would you say, Mark, um is the big Ah ha. This really is amazing. I'm so happy because of this feature capability. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, a little bit back to the discussion we're having before, but I think you know the killer use case Really for the service today is that cloud migration use case I was talking about before. And if you think about what it might have taken them previously. Right? Uh, you know, expensive time consuming. Um, you know, it requires changes to their environment. In some cases, with with VM or cloud on AWS, we could take the cloud migration that would previously been taken them perhaps years, millions or tens of millions of dollars. And we can shrink that down toe literally months, right. We have some customers like m i t. That migrated hundreds of applications literally over a weekend. Right. And we're able to do that because it's the same core enterprise Class V, and where capabilities of the customers already optimized their application to run on in their own data centers that now we've enabled on AWS as a cloud service so that that cloud migration use case kind of combined with the fact that we're, um that were delivered to them as a service in the AWS cloud. I think is, uh, you know, one of the one of the use cases that a lot of customers find extremely attractive. >>Alright, David, your turn from an M. A w s perspective. What are people happy with you for on this partnership? What praises? Are you getting some your way When someone says, Hey, man, this partners has been great. Amazon really is awesome for this. What would you say to that? >>Eso, you know, watch book about the migration I was going to choose sort of, You know, once they're in aws, um, the benefits of the power brakes writes the ability to scale on the mind. E think one of the great things about the record in AWS that VM Ware did is already built it as a cloud native service. And so, you know, the customers are able to provision additional capacity very easily. We have that capacity available on AWS, and so they're able to meet any sort of unexpected demand of scale. Um, and then together with the breadth of services that we have on a diverse is Well, you know, you and we've we thought very carefully about how being were customer would want to consume those and to make sure that the whole system set up to allow that to happen. And so allowing them to to broaden what they're using over time, is there. Engineers and teams find other services that allow them to innovate faster and, you know, bold more interesting applications so that it integrates incredibly well between AWS and VMware and customers benefit from that. >>I wanna ask you guys, um, or in the industry side, um, to comment on cloud native, um, mainly because one we cover it into it's kind of important trend. Um, recently, snowflake went public with the largest i p on the history of the of Wall Street, and it's an enterprise company. Okay, Um, and I was using that as an example because actually being where was the second most popular, uh, Hypo happens to be another enterprise company if and I was commenting on this, and I want to get your reaction to it And that is, is that if you look at the mega trend that's going on now, of all the things people talk about, it's the cloud native That's the most interesting, because this is all the value. If you look at the modern applications all the way down to the networking, everything in between. It's all about cloud native, And it's not just about cloud public cloud. It's not about It's an operating model when we talk about that. But Cloud native is the big wave that people are on. And if you're on it, your modern. This is not just hand waving. It's legit. I mean, you're seeing benefits of it. You're seeing speed, time to value all the things that people talk about, it, the events. Could you guys comment on why Cloud native is so important today and why customers and developers should be really thinking through what that is for them. Um, David will start with you. >>Absolutely. So for us part native really means, you know, have you built your application in a way that takes advantage of the benefits of the cloud? And so are you able to scare the application horizontally? Are you able, Thio? You know, building away That's redundant Across multiple data centers. Are you able to utilize services that are provided by, you know, aws, the cloud provider Thio to not have your teams build that And so what it ultimately means is you're able to spend more time focused on on building stuff that really matters. You know, if your application So you mentioned Snowflake, you know there are a great AWS customer work very closely with them and and they're able Thio, have us around a lot of the infrastructure, all the infrastructure for them in the power. And they can really focus on building an absolutely incredible data, whereas in solution for their end customer and we innovate very closely with them. And so that's really what it means, you know. And I think organizations that have gotten themselves there ready get a lot of benefit. They're able to innovate faster. They're able Thio deliver more to the end customer. You know, we spent a lot of time with companies that you wouldn't say a cloud native today and as a cloud provider, azi exciting as it is to support the cloud native customer, it's also incredibly important that we find a way to support the company. That's on a journey towards adopting the cloud, right? They've got a long history. Maybe they've been around for many, many, many years. Andi, I've got a large application stack that they need to move. And so that's where our migration programs really support customers. You need to bring non card native applications and then we're able to work with them over time to make them, you know, more cloud native and get a lot of those benefits. And so it's a journey that I think many of companies on. Some started there, and some have a way to get their differently. Has a lot of benefit. >>Isn't Snowflake really in Just a example of value creation? I mean, it's not about that. They're on Amazon. You're happy about that. But it shows that you don't have to go a certain way. If you create value, speed, scale speaks for itself. So that's just that could be an enterprise. That could be startup. That could be the Cube. It could be anybody, right? I mean, don't you see it that way? >>Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, they had a great use case that a customer need. It's in a really interesting area, obviously dealing with big data. And so I think you know, there's there's really no limit there, >>Mark. You guys are in the modern app. That's what you're hearing. It's one of the things that people gonna wanna come out of co vid. They're gonna wanna have a growth strategy. Cloud native. Why is it important? And what's your take on this? What's your reaction to the cloud native being the big wave? >>Yeah, I mean, I think. I think Dave said it. You know very well. I mean, when I talked to customers, you know, regardless of where they are in that journey, they all have some form of digital transformation agenda. Right? And at the end of the day, they wanna deliver better services to their end customers because they know that's what different is going to differentiate them. Or they want a better empower their employees, right? And as part of trying to deliver that value to their customers, their employees, you know, they want to focus their time and energy on the things that really differentiate them. Right? And, you know, for many of them that that means, you know, they don't wanna have to worry about, you know, upgrading some infrastructure software, right? That's not that's not delivering value to their to their customers. And so, you know, I think as they go down that journey, you know, we're really pleased to be ableto partner. What they did you ask to be able to create these, uh, you know, these powerful platforms together between VM ware and AWS that really deliver a lot of value to customers and allow them to focus on what's important their business, right? And, you know, by bringing together those enterprise class VM, or capabilities that hundreds of thousands of customers trust for their most mission critical workloads. Combining that with eyes, they have talked about the possibility of agility, the scalability of the dust cloud and then sort of, you know, not just those existing workloads, but also enabling a rich set of new services those customers can take advantage of to modernize. You know, whether it's VM Ware services like I talked about before with our native kubernetes capability built into BMC or whether it's the you know, hundreds and growing portfolio abated bus services, you know, giving them all, giving them the power of that full toolkit as a service so they can focus on building value on top. I mean, that's e think, really they want an equation. But that's why so many customers are moving down that path together with us. >>Well, congratulations. I want to say to you because David Lynch has been digging into the buyer behavior data, looking at the what the budget projections gonna be and VM ware on AWS has been strongly performing, and it's doing really well. Congratulations. And David. Great to have you back on. And you got reinvent less than 60 days away. Can you give us a little taste, teaser and taste of what you got going on? I know you can't reveal, but what kind of generally we're gonna be seeing at reinvent, uh, with E c two and your team >>absolutely reinvents a little different this year. It's It's obviously virtual on, so we're pretty excited about that. We think it will bring a new flavor. And so there's a lot of planning going on both in terms of product delivery. It was a It was a great time of year for us as we finish up a lot about big releases aimed at reinvent, then obviously working on content and presentations. And so, you know, a lot of interesting stuff for customers to think about is that >>they're not revealing anything. You just you know. Okay, you're gonna have some announcements. I'm sure you see two. That's a big announcements. Exactly. Hiding the ball, as they say. David Brown, vice president of Easy to it. Amazon Web services. AWS, Markle, Omar s v P. And GM. A cloud Service business unit at VM Ware. Um, great partnership. Congratulations. We'll be following it. Thanks for coming. I appreciate it. Thank >>you very much. >>Okay, I'm John. For with the Cube. We're here in Palo Alto. Remote for the Cube. Virtual for VM World 2020. Virtual couldn't be face to face. We're doing our best with our cube virtual to get you the content. Thanks for watching.

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe. Of course the event this year was supposed to be in the Netherlands, I know I was very much looking forward to going to Amsterdam. This year of course it's going to be virtual, I'm really excited theCUBE's coverage, we've got some great members of the CNCF, we've got a bunch of end users, we've got some good thought leaders, and I'm also bringing a little bit of the Netherlands to help me bring in and start this keynote analysis, happy to welcome back to the program my cohost for the show, Joep Piscaer, who is an industry analyst with TLA. Thank you, Joep, so much for joining us, and we wish we could be with you in person, and check out your beautiful country. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me Stu, and I'm still a little disappointed we cannot eat the (indistinct foreign term) rijsttafel together this year. >> Oh, yeah, can we just have a segment to explain to people the wonder that is the fusion of Indonesian food and the display that you get only in the Netherlands? Rijsttafel, I seriously had checked all over the US and Canada, when I was younger, to find an equivalent, but one of my favorite culinary delights in the world, but we'll have to put a pin in that. You've had some warm weather in the Netherlands recently, and so many of the Europeans take quite a lot of time off in July and August, but we're going to talk about some hardcore tech, KubeCon, a show we love doing, the European show brings good diversity of experiences and customers from across the globe. So, let's start, the keynote, Priyanka Sharma, the new general manager of the CNCF, of course, just some really smart people that come out and talk about a lot of things. And since it's a foundation show, there's some news in there, but it's more about how they're helping corral all of these projects, of course, a theme we've talked about for a while is KubeCon was the big discussion for many years about Kubernetes, still important, and we'll talk about that, but so many different projects and everything from the sandbox, their incubation, through when they become fully, generally available, so, I guess I'll let you start and step back and say when you look at this broad ecosystem, you work with vendors, you've been from the customer side, what's top of mind for you, what's catching your attention? >> So, I guess from a cloud-native perspective, looking at the CNCF, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not about any individual technology, isn't about just Kubernetes or just Prometheus, or just service mesh. I think the added value of the CNCF, and the way I look at it at least, looking back at my customer perspective, I would've loved to have a organization curate the technology world around me, for me. To help me out with the decisions on a technology perspective that I needed to make to kind of move forward with my IT stack, and with the requirements my customer had, or my organization had, to kind of move that into the next phase. That is where I see the CNCF come in and do their job really well, to help organizations, both on the vendor side as well as on the customer side, take that next step, see around the corner, what's new, what's coming, and also make sure that between different, maybe even competing standards, the right ones surface up and become the de facto standard for organizations to use. >> Yeah, a lot of good thoughts there, Joep, I want to walk through that stack a little bit, but before we do, big statement that Priyanka made, I thought it was a nice umbrella for her keynote, it's a foundation of doers powering end user driven open-source, so as I mentioned, you worked at a service provider, you've done strategies for some other large organizations, what's your thought on the role of how the end users engage with and contribute to open-source? One of the great findings I saw a couple years ago, as you said, it went from open-source being something that people did on the weekend to the sides, to many end users, and of course lots of vendors, have full-time people that their jobs are to contribute and participate in the open-source communities. >> Yeah, I guess that kind of signals a maturity in the market to me, where organizations are investing in open-source because they know they're going to get something out of it. So back in the day, it was not necessarily certain that if you put a lot of effort into an open-source project, for your own gain, for your own purposes, that that would work out, and that with the backing of the CNCF, as well as so many member organizations and end user organizations, I think participating in open-source becomes easier, because there's more of a guarantee that what you put in will kind of circulate, and come out and have value for you, in a different way. Because if you're working on a service mesh, some other organization might be working on Prometheus, or Kubernetes, or another project, and some organizations are now kind of helping each other with the CNCF as the gatekeeper, to move all of those technology stacks forward, instead of everyone doing it for themselves. Maybe even being forced to reinvent the wheel for some of those technology components. >> So let's walk through the stack a little bit, and the layers that are out there, so let's start with Kubernetes, the discussion has been Kubernetes won the container orchestration battles, but whose Kubernetes am I going to use? For a while it was would it be distributions, we've seen every platform basically has at least one Kubernetes option built into it, so doesn't mean you're necessarily using this, before AWS had their own flavor of Kubernetes, there was at least 15 different ways that you could run Kubernetes on top of it, but now they have ECS, they have EKS, even things like Fargate now work with EKS, so interesting innovation and adoption there. But VMware baked Kubernetes into vSphere 7. Red Hat of course, with OpenShift, has thousands of customers and has great momentum, we saw SUSE buy Rancher to help them move along and make sure that they get embedded there. One of the startups you've worked with, Spectro Cloud, helps play into the mix there, so there is no shortage of options, and then from a management standpoint, companies like Microsoft, Google, VMware, Red Hat, all, how do I manage across clusters, because it's not going to just be one Kubernetes that you're going to use, we're expecting that you're going to have multiple options out there, so it sure doesn't sound boring to me yet, or reached full maturity, Joep. What's your take, what advice do you give to people out there when they say "Hey, okay, I'm going to use Kubernetes," I've got hybrid cloud, or I probably have a couple things, how should they be approaching that and thinking about how they engage with Kubernetes? >> So that's a difficult one, because it can go so many different ways, just because, like you said, the market is maturing. Which means, we're kind of back at where we left off virtualization a couple years ago, where we had managers of managers, managing across different data centers, doing the multicloud thing before it was a cloud thing. We have automation doing day two operations, I saw one of the announcements for this week will be a vendor coming out with day two operations automation, to kind of help simplify that stack of Kubernetes in production. And so the best advice I think I have is, don't try to do it all yourself, right, so Kubernetes is still maturing, it is still fairly open, in a sense that you can change everything, which makes it fairly complex to use and configure. So don't try and do that part yourself, necessarily, either use a managed service, which there are a bunch of, Spectro Cloud, for example, as well as Platform9, even the bigger players are now having those platforms. Because in the end, Kubernetes is kind of the foundation of what you're going to do on top of it. Kubernetes itself doesn't have business value in that sense, so spending a lot of time, especially at the beginning of a project, figuring that part out, I don't think makes sense, especially if the risk and the impact of making mistakes is fairly large. Like, make a mistake in a monitoring product, and you'll be able to fix that problem more easily. But make a mistake in a Kubernetes platform, and that's much more difficult, especially because I see organizations build one cluster to rule them all, instead of leveraging what the cloud offers, which is just spin up another cluster. Even spin it up somewhere else, because we can now do the multicloud thing, we can now manage applications across Kubernetes clusters, we can manage many different clusters from a single pane of glass, so there's really no reason anymore to see that Kubernetes thing as something really difficult that you have to do yourself, hence just do it once. Instead, my recommendation would be to look at your processes and figure out, how can I figure out how to have a Kubernetes cluster for everything I do, maybe that's per team, maybe that's per application or per environment, per cloud, and they kind of work from that, because, again, Kubernetes is not the holy grail, it's not the end state, it is a means to an end, to get where we're going with applications, with developing new functionality for customers. >> Well, I think you hit on a really important point, if you look out in the social discussion, sometimes Kubernetes and multicloud get attacked, because when I talk to customers, they shouldn't have a Kubernetes strategy. They have their business strategy, and there are certain things that they're trying to, "How do I make sure everything's secure," and I'm looking at DevSecOps, I need to really have an edge computing strategy because that's going to help my business objectives, and when I look at some of the tools that are going to help and get me there, well, Kubernetes, the service meshes, some of the other tools in the CNCF are going to help me get there, and as you said, I've got managed services, cloud providers, integrators are going to help me build those solutions without me having to spend years to understand how to do that. So yeah, I'd love to hear any interesting projects you're hearing about, edge computing, the security space has gone from super important to even more important if that's possible in 2020. What are you hearing? >> Yeah, so the most interesting part for me is definitely the DevSecOps movement, where we're basically not even allowed to call it DevOps anymore. Security has finally gained a foothold, they're finally able to shift lift the security practices into the realm of developers, simplifying it in a way, and automating it in a way that, it's no longer a trivial task to integrate security. And there's a lot of companies supporting that, even from a Kubernetes perspective, integrating with Kubernetes or integrating with networking products on top of Kubernetes. And I think we finally have reached a moment in time where security is no longer something that we really need to think about. Again, because CNCF is kind of helping us select the right projects, helping us in the right direction, so that making choices in the security realm becomes easier, and becomes a no-brainer for teams, special security teams, as well as the application development teams, to integrate security. >> Well, Joep, I'm glad to hear we've solved security, we can all go home now. That's awesome. But no, in all seriousness, such an important piece, lots of companies spending time on there, and it does feel that we are starting to get the process and organization around, so that we can attack these challenges a little bit more head-on. How 'about service mesh, it's one of those things that's been a little bit contentious the last couple of years, of course ahead of the show, Google is not donating Istio to the foundation, instead, the trademark's open. I'm going to have an interview with Liz Rice to dig into that piece, in the chess moves, Microsoft is now putting out a service mesh, so as Corey Quinn says, the plural of service mesh must be service meeshes, so, it feels like Mr. Meeseeks, for any Rick and Morty fans, we just keep pressing the button and more of them appear, which may cause us more trouble, but, what's your take, do you have a service mesh coming out, Kelsey Hightower had a fun little thing on Twitter about it, what's the state of the state? >> Yeah, so I won't be publishing a service mesh, maybe I'll try and rickroll someone, but we'll see what happens. But service meshes are, they're still a hot topic, it's still one of the spaces where most discussion is kind of geared towards. There is yet to form a single standard, there is yet a single block of companies creating a front to solve that service mesh issue, and I think that's because in the end, service meshes are, from a complexity perspective, they're not mature enough to be able to commoditize into a standard. I think we still need a little while, and maybe ask me this question next year again, and we'll see what happens. But we'll still need a little while to kind of let this market shift and let this market innovate, because I don't think we've reached the end state with service meshes. Also kind of gauging from customer interest and actual production implementations, I don't think this has trickled down from the largest companies that have the most requirements into the smaller companies, the smaller markets, which is something that we do usually see, now Kubernetes is definitely doing that. So in terms of service meshes, I don't think the innovation has reached that endpoint yet, and I think we'll still need a little while, which will mean for the upcoming period, that we'll kind of see this head to head from different companies, trying to gain a foothold, trying to lead a market, introduce their own products. And I think that's okay, and I think the CNCF will continue to kind of curate that experience, up to a point where maybe somewhere in the future we will have a noncompeting standard to finally have something that's commoditized and easy to implement. >> Yeah, it's an interesting piece, one of the things I've always enjoyed when I go to the show is just wander, and the things you bump into are like "Oh my gosh, wow, look at all of these cool little projects." I don't think we are going to stop that Cambrian explosion of innovation and ideas. When you go walk around there's usually over 200 vendors there, and a lot of them are opensource projects. I would say many of them, when you have a discussion with them, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a business behind that project, and that's where you also see maturity in spaces. A year or so ago, in the observability space, open tracing helped pull together a couple of pieces. Storage is starting to mature. Doesn't mean we're going to get down to one standard, there's still a couple of storage engines out there, I have some really good discussions this week to go into that, but it goes from, "Boy, storage is a mess," to "Oh, okay, we have a couple of uses," and just like storage in the data center, there's not a box or a protocol to do anything, it's what's your use case, what performance, what clouds, what environments are you living on, and therefore you can do that. So it's good to see lots of new things added, but then they mature out and they consolidate, and as you said, the CNCF is help giving those roadmaps, those maps, the landscapes, which boy, if you go online, they have some really good tools. Go to CNCF, the website, and you can look through, Cheryl Hung put one, I'm trying to remember which, it's basically a bullseye of the ones that, here's the one that's fully baked, and here's the ones that are making its way through, and the customer feedback, and they're going to do more of those to help give guidance, because no one solution is going to fit everybody's needs, and you have these spectrums of offerings. Wild card for you, are there any interesting projects out there, new things that you're hearing about, what areas should people be poking around that might not be the top level big things? >> So, I guess for me, that's really personal because I'm still kind of an infrastructure geek in that sense. So one of the things that really surprised me was a more traditional vendor, Zerto in this case, with a fantastic solution, finally, they're doing data protection for Kubernetes. And my recommendation would be to look at companies like Zerto in the data protection space, finally making that move into containers, because even though we've completed the discussion, stateful versus stateless, there's still a lot to be said for thinking about data protection, if you're going to go all-in into containers and into Kubernetes, so that was one that really provoked my thoughts, I really was interested in seeing, "Okay, what's Zerto doing in this list of CNCF members?" And for that matter, I think other vendors like VMware, like Red Hat, like other companies that are moving into this space, with a regained trust in their solutions, is something that I think is really interesting, and absolutely worth exploring during the event, to see what those more traditional companies, to use the term, are doing to innovate with their solutions, and kind of helping the CNCF and the cloud data world, become more enterprise-ready, and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make, where for the longest time, we've had this cloud-native versus traditional, but I always thought of it like cloud-native versus enterprise-ready, or proven technology. This is kind of for the developers doing a new thing, this is for the IT operations teams, and we're kind of seeing those two groups, at least from a technology perspective, being fused into one new blood group, making their way forward and innovating with those technologies. So, I think it's interesting to look at the existing vendors and the CNCF members to see where they're innovating. >> Well, Joep, you connected a dotted line between the cloud-native insights program that I've been doing, you were actually my first guest on that. We've got a couple of months worth of episodes out there, and it is closing that gap between what the developers are doing and what the enterprise was, so absolutely, there's architectural pieces, Joep, like you, I'm an infrastructure geek, so I come from those pieces, and there was that gap between, I'm going to use VMs, and now I'm using containers, and I'm looking at things like serverless too, how do we built applications, and is it that bottom-up versus top-down, and what a company's needs, they need to be able to react fast, they need to be able to change along the way, they need to be able to take advantage of the innovation that ecosystems like this have, so, I love the emphasis CNCF has, making sure that the end users are going to have a strong voice, because as you said, the big companies have come in, not just VMware and Red Hat, but, IBM and Dell are behind those two companies, and HPE, Cisco, many others out there that the behemoths out there, not to mention of course the big hyperscale clouds that helped start this, we wouldn't have a lot of this without Google kicking off with Kubernetes, AWS front and center, and an active participant here, and if you talk to the customers, they're all leveraging it, and of course Microsoft, so it is a robust, big ecosystem, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig into it, definitely hope we can have events back in the Netherlands in the near future, and great to see you as always. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, stay tuned, we have, as I said, full spectrum of interviews from theCUBE, they'll be broadcasting during the three days, and of course go to theCUBE.net to catch all of what we've done this year at the show, as well as all the back history. Feel free to reach out to me, I'm @Stu on Twitter, and thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE. (calm music)