(upbeat music) >> From theCube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> While by no means a safe haven, the cybersecurity sector has outpaced the broader tech market by a meaningful margin, that is up until very recently. Cybersecurity remains the number one technology priority for the C-suite, but as we've previously reported the CISO's budget has constraints just like other technology investments. Recent trends show that economic headwinds have elongated sales cycles, pushed deals into future quarters, and just like other tech initiatives, are pacing cybersecurity investments and breaking them into smaller chunks. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we explain how cybersecurity trends are reverting to the mean and tracking more closely with other technology investments. We'll make a couple of valuation comparisons to show the magnitude of the challenge and which cyber firms are feeling the heat, which aren't. There are some exceptions. We'll then show the latest survey data from ETR to quantify the contraction in spending momentum and close with a glimpse of the landscape of emerging cybersecurity companies, the private companies that could be ripe for acquisition, consolidation, or disruptive to the broader market. First, let's take a look at the recent patterns for cyber stocks relative to the broader tech market as a benchmark, as an indicator. Here's a year to date comparison of the bug ETF, which comprises a basket of cyber security names, and we compare that with the tech heavy NASDAQ composite. Notice that on April 13th of this year the cyber ETF was actually in positive territory while the NAS was down nearly 14%. Now by August 16th, the green turned red for cyber stocks but they still meaningfully outpaced the broader tech market by more than 950 basis points as of December 2nd that Delta had contracted. As you can see, the cyber ETF is now down nearly 25%, year to date, while the NASDAQ is down 27% and change. Now take a look at just how far a few of the high profile cybersecurity names have fallen. Here are six security firms that we've been tracking closely since before the pandemic. We've been, you know, tracking dozens but let's just take a look at this data and the subset. We show for comparison the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ, again, just for reference, they're both up since right before the pandemic. They're up relative to right before the pandemic, and then during the pandemic the S&P shot up more than 40%, relative to its pre pandemic level, around February is what we're using for the pre pandemic level, and the NASDAQ peaked at around 65% higher than that February level. They're now down 85% and 71% of their previous. So they're at 85% and 71% respectively from their pandemic highs. You compare that to these six companies, Splunk, which was and still is working through a transition is well below its pre pandemic market value and 44, it's 44% of its pre pandemic high as of last Friday. Palo Alto Networks is the most interesting here, in that it had been facing challenges prior to the pandemic related to a pivot to the Cloud which we reported on at the time. But as we said at that time we believe the company would sort out its Cloud transition, and its go to market challenges, and sales compensation issues, which it did as you can see. And its valuation jumped from 24 billion prior to Covid to 56 billion, and it's holding 93% of its peak value. Its revenue run rate is now over 6 billion with a healthy growth rate of 24% expected for the next quarter. Similarly, Fortinet has done relatively well holding 71% of its peak Covid value, with a healthy 34% revenue guide for the coming quarter. Now, Okta has been the biggest disappointment, a darling of the pandemic Okta's communication snafu, with what was actually a pretty benign hack combined with difficulty absorbing its 7 billion off zero acquisition, knocked the company off track. Its valuation has dropped by 35 billion since its peak during the pandemic, and that's after a nice beat and bounce back quarter just announced by Okta. Now, in our view Okta remains a viable long-term leader in identity. However, its recent fiscal 24 revenue guide was exceedingly conservative at around 16% growth. So either the company is sandbagging, or has such poor visibility that it wants to be like super cautious or maybe it's actually seeing a dramatic slowdown in its business momentum. After all, this is a company that not long ago was putting up 50% plus revenue growth rates. So it's one that bears close watching. CrowdStrike is another big name that we've been talking about on Breaking Analysis for quite some time. It like Okta has led the industry in a key ETR performance indicator that measures customer spending momentum. Just last week, CrowdStrike announced revenue increased more than 50% but new ARR was soft and the company guided conservatively. Not surprisingly, the stock got absolutely crushed as CrowdStrike blamed tepid demand from smaller and midsize firms. Many analysts believe that competition from Microsoft was one factor along with cautious spending amongst those midsize and smaller customers. Notably, large customers remain active. So we'll see if this is a longer term trend or an anomaly. Zscaler is another company in the space that we've reported having great customer spending momentum from the ETR data. But even though the company beat expectations for its recent quarter, like other companies its Outlook was conservative. So other than Palo Alto, and to a lesser extent Fortinet, these companies and others that we're not showing here are feeling the economic pinch and it shows in the compression of value. CrowdStrike, for example, had a 70 billion valuation at one point during the pandemic Zscaler top 50 billion, Okta 45 billion. Now, having said that Palo Alto Networks, Fortinet, CrowdStrike, and Zscaler are all still trading well above their pre pandemic levels that we tracked back in February of 2020. All right, let's go now back to ETR'S January survey and take a look at how much things have changed since the beginning of the year. Remember, this is obviously pre Ukraine, and pre all the concerns about the economic headwinds but here's an X Y graph that shows a net score, or spending momentum on the y-axis, and market presence on the x-axis. The red dotted line at 40% on the vertical indicates a highly elevated net score. Anything above that we think is, you know, super elevated. Now, we filtered the data here to show only those companies with more than 50 responses in the ETR survey. Still really crowded. Note that there were around 20 companies above that red 40% mark, which is a very, you know, high number. It's a, it's a crowded market, but lots of companies with, you know, positive momentum. Now let's jump ahead to the most recent October survey and take a look at what, what's happening. Same graphic plotting, spending momentum, and market presence, and look at the number of companies above that red line and how it's been squashed. It's really compressing, it's still a crowded market, it's still, you know, plenty of green, but the number of companies above 40% that, that key mark has gone from around 20 firms down to about five or six. And it speaks to that compression and IT spending, and of course the elongated sales cycles pushing deals out, taking them in smaller chunks. I can't tell you how many conversations with customers I had, at last week at Reinvent underscoring this exact same trend. The buyers are getting pressure from their CFOs to slow things down, do more with less and, and, and prioritize projects to those that absolutely are critical to driving revenue or cutting costs. And that's rippling through all sectors, including cyber. Now, let's do a bit more playing around with the ETR data and take a look at those companies with more than a hundred citations in the survey this quarter. So N, greater than or equal to a hundred. Now remember the followers of Breaking Analysis know that each quarter we take a look at those, what we call four star security firms. That is, those are the, that are in, that hit the top 10 for both spending momentum, net score, and the N, the mentions in the survey, the presence, the pervasiveness in the survey, and that's what we show here. The left most chart is sorted by spending momentum or net score, and the right hand chart by shared N, or the number of mentions in the survey, that pervasiveness metric. that solid red line denotes the cutoff point at the top 10. And you'll note we've actually cut it off at 11 to account for Auth 0, which is now part of Okta, and is going through a go to market transition, you know, with the company, they're kind of restructuring sales so they can take advantage of that. So starting on the left with spending momentum, again, net score, Microsoft leads all vendors, typical Microsoft, very prominent, although it hadn't always done so, it, for a while, CrowdStrike and Okta were, were taking the top spot, now it's Microsoft. CrowdStrike, still always near the top, but note that CyberArk and Cloudflare have cracked the top five in Okta, which as I just said was consistently at the top, has dropped well off its previous highs. You'll notice that Palo Alto Network Palo Alto Networks with a 38% net score, just below that magic 40% number, is healthy, especially as you look over to the right hand chart. Take a look at Palo Alto with an N of 395. It is the largest of the independent pure play security firms, and has a very healthy net score, although one caution is that net score has dropped considerably since the beginning of the year, which is the case for most of the top 10 names. The only exception is Fortinet, they're the only ones that saw an increase since January in spending momentum as ETR measures it. Now this brings us to the four star security firms, that is those that hit the top 10 in both net score on the left hand side and market presence on the right hand side. So it's Microsoft, Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, Okta, still there even not accounting for a Auth 0, just Okta on its own. If you put in Auth 0, it's, it's even stronger. Adding then in Fortinet and Zscaler. So Microsoft, Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, Okta, Fortinet, and Zscaler. And as we've mentioned since January, only Fortinet has shown an increase in net score since, since that time, again, since the January survey. Now again, this talks to the compression in spending. Now one of the big themes we hear constantly in cybersecurity is the market is overcrowded. Everybody talks about that, me included. The implication there, is there's a lot of room for consolidation and that consolidation can come in the form of M&A, or it can come in the form of people consolidating onto a single platform, and retiring some other vendors, and getting rid of duplicate vendors. We're hearing that as a big theme as well. Now, as we saw in the previous, previous chart, this is a very crowded market and we've seen lots of consolidation in 2022, in the form of M&A. Literally hundreds of M&A deals, with some of the largest companies going private. SailPoint, KnowBe4, Barracuda, Mandiant, Fedora, these are multi billion dollar acquisitions, or at least billion dollars and up, and many of them multi-billion, for these companies, and hundreds more acquisitions in the cyberspace, now less you think the pond is overfished, here's a chart from ETR of emerging tech companies in the cyber security industry. This data comes from ETR's Emerging Technologies Survey, ETS, which is this diamond in a rough that I found a couple quarters ago, and it's ripe with companies that are candidates for M&A. Many would've liked, many of these companies would've liked to, gotten to the public markets during the pandemic, but they, you know, couldn't get there. They weren't ready. So the graph, you know, similar to the previous one, but different, it shows net sentiment on the vertical axis and that's a measurement of, of, of intent to adopt against a mind share on the X axis, which measures, measures the awareness of the vendor in the community. So this is specifically a survey that ETR goes out and, and, and fields only to track those emerging tech companies that are private companies. Now, some of the standouts in Mindshare, are OneTrust, BeyondTrust, Tanium and Endpoint, Net Scope, which we've talked about in previous Breaking Analysis. 1Password, which has been acquisitive on its own. In identity, the managed security service provider, Arctic Wolf Network, a company we've also covered, we've had their CEO on. We've talked about MSSPs as a real trend, particularly in small and medium sized business, we'll come back to that, Sneek, you know, kind of high flyer in both app security and containers, and you can just see the number of companies in the space this huge and it just keeps growing. Now, just to make it a bit easier on the eyes we filtered the data on these companies with with those, and isolated on those with more than a hundred responses only within the survey. And that's what we show here. Some of the names that we just mentioned are a bit easier to see, but these are the ones that really stand out in ERT, ETS, survey of private companies, OneTrust, BeyondTrust, Taniam, Netscope, which is in Cloud, 1Password, Arctic Wolf, Sneek, BitSight, SecurityScorecard, HackerOne, Code42, and Exabeam, and Sim. All of these hit the ETS survey with more than a hundred responses by, by the IT practitioners. Okay, so these firms, you know, maybe they do some M&A on their own. We've seen that with Sneek, as I said, with 1Password has been inquisitive, as have others. Now these companies with the larger footprint, these private companies, will likely be candidate for both buying companies and eventually going public when the markets settle down a bit. So again, no shortage of players to affect consolidation, both buyers and sellers. Okay, so let's finish with some key questions that we're watching. CrowdStrike in particular on its earnings calls cited softness from smaller buyers. Is that because these smaller buyers have stopped adopting? If so, are they more at risk, or are they tactically moving toward the easy button, aka, Microsoft's good enough approach. What does that mean for the market if smaller company cohorts continue to soften? How about MSSPs? Will companies continue to outsource, or pause on on that, as well as try to free up, to try to free up some budget? Adam Celiski at Reinvent last week said, "If you want to save money the Cloud's the best place to do it." Is the cloud the best place to save money in cyber? Well, it would seem that way from the standpoint of controlling budgets with lots of, lots of optionality. You could dial up and dial down services, you know, or does the Cloud add another layer of complexity that has to be understood and managed by Devs, for example? Now, consolidation should favor the likes of Palo Alto and CrowdStrike, cause they're platform players, and some of the larger players as well, like Cisco, how about IBM and of course Microsoft. Will that happen? And how will economic uncertainty impact the risk equation, a particular concern is increase of tax on vulnerable sectors of the population, like the elderly. How will companies and governments protect them from scams? And finally, how many cybersecurity companies can actually remain independent in the slingshot economy? In so many ways the market is still strong, it's just that expectations got ahead of themselves, and now as earnings forecast come, come, come down and come down to earth, it's going to basically come down to who can execute, generate cash, and keep enough runway to get through the knothole. And the one certainty is nobody really knows how tight that knothole really is. All right, let's call it a wrap. Next week we dive deeper into Palo Alto Networks, and take a look at how and why that company has held up so well and what to expect at Ignite, Palo Alto's big user conference coming up later this month in Las Vegas. We'll be there with theCube. Okay, many thanks to Alex Myerson on production and manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well, as our newest edition to our Boston studio. Great to have you Ken. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our EIC over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you to all. Remember these episodes are all available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibond.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me directly David.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @DVellante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please do checkout etr.ai, they got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>Good morning and welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here on set of the cube, my co-host John Farer. How you doing this morning, John? >>Doing great. Feeling fresh. Day two of three days of coverage, feeling >>Fresh. That is that for being in the heat of the conference. I love that attitude. It's gonna >>Be a great day today. We'll see you at the end of the day. Yeah, >>Well, we'll hold him to it. All right, everyone hold 'em accountable. Very excited to start the day off with an internet, a legend as well as a cube og. We are joined this morning by Matt Klein. Matt, welcome to the show. >>Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yep. >>It's so, what's the vibe? Day two, Everyone's buzzing. What's got you excited at the show? You've been here before, but it's been three years you >>Mentioned. I, I was saying it's been three years since I've been to a conference, so it's been interesting for me to see what is, what is the same and what is different pre and post covid. But just really great to see everyone here again and nice to not be sitting in my home by myself. >>You know, Savannah said you're an OG and we were referring before we came on camera that you were your first came on the Cub in 2017, second Cuban event. But you were, I think, on the first wave of what I call the contributor momentum, where CNCF really got the traction. Yeah. You were at Lift, Envoy was contributed and that was really hyped up and I remember that vividly. It was day zero they called it back then. Yeah. And you got so much traction. People are totally into it. Yeah. Now we've got a lot of that going on now. Right. A lot of, lot of day Zero events. They call 'em co, co-located events. You got web assembly, a lot of other hype out there. What do you see out there that you like? How would you look at some of these other Sure. Communities that are developing, What's the landscape look like as you look out? Because Envoy set the table, what is now a standard >>Practice. Yeah. What's been so interesting for me just to come here to the conference is, you know, we open source Envoy in 2016. We donated in 2017. And as you mentioned at that time, Envoy was, you know, everyone wanted to talk about Envoy. And you know, much to my amazement, Envoy is now pervasive. I mean, it's used everywhere around the world. It's like, never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that it would be so widely used. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's become boring. You know, It's just assumed that Envoy is, is everywhere. And now we're hearing a lot about Eeb p f and Web assembly and GI ops and you know, AI and a bunch of other things. So it's, it's actually great. It's made me very happy that it's become so pervasive, but it's also fun. Yeah. We mention to, to look around all other stuff >>Like congratulate. It's just a huge accomplishment really. I think it's gonna be historic, historical moment for the industry too. But I like how it progressed. I mean, I don't mind hype cycles as long as it's some vetting. Sure. Of course. You know, use cases that are clearly defined, but you gotta get that momentum in the community, but then you start gotta get down to, to business. Yep. So, so to speak and get it deployed, get traction. Yep. What should projects look like? And, and give us the update on Envoy. Cause you guys have a, a great use case of how you got traction. Right. Take us through some of the early days of what made Envoy successful in your opinion. Great question. >>Yeah. You know, I, I think Envoy is fairly unique around this conference in the sense that Envoy was developed by Lyft, which is an end user company. And many of the projects in this ecosystem, you know, no judgment, for better or worse, they are vendor backed. And I think that's a different delivery mechanism when it's coming from an end user where you're solving a, a particular business case. So Envoy was really developed for Lyft in a, you know, very early scaling days and just, you know, trying to help Lyft solve its business problems. So I think when Envoy was developed, we were, you know, scaling, we were falling over and actually many other companies were having similar problems. So I think Envoy became very widely deployed because many companies were having similar issues. So Envoy just became pervasive among lift peer companies. And then we saw a lot of vendor uptake in the service mesh space in the API gateway space among large internet providers. So, I I I, I think it's just, it's an interesting case because I think when you're solving real problems on the ground, in some ways it's easier to actually get adoption than if you're trying to develop it from a commercial backing. >>And that's the class, I mean, almost, It's almost like open source product market fit. It is in its own way. Cause you have a problem. Absolutely. Other people have the same problem finding >>Too. I mean, it's, it's designed thinking from >>A different, When, when I talk to people about open source, I like to tell people that I do not think it's any different than starting a company. I actually think it's all the same problems finding pro product, market fit, hiring, like finding contributors and maintainers, like doing PR and marketing. Yeah. Getting team together, traction, getting, getting funding. I mean, you have to have money to do all these things. Yeah. So I think a lot of people think of open source as I, I don't know, you know, this fantastic collaborative effort and, and it is that, but there's a lot more to it. Yeah. And it is much more akin to starting a >>Company. Let's, let's just look at that for a second. Cause I think that's a good point. And I was having a conversation in the hallway two nights ago on this exact point. If the power dynamics of a startup in the open source, as you point out, is just different, it's community based. So there are things you just gotta be mindful of. It's not top down. >>Exactly. It's not like, >>Right. You know, go take that hill. It's really consensus based, but it is a startup. All those elements are in place. Absolutely. You need leadership, you gotta have debates, alignment, commit, You gotta commit to a vision. Yep. You gotta make adjustments. Build the trajectory. So based on that, I mean, do you see more end user traction? Cause I was, we were talking also about Intuit, they donated some of their tow code R goes out there. Yep. R go see the CDR goes a service. Where's the end user contributions to these days? Do you feel like it's good, still healthy? >>I, I mean, I, I'm, I'm biased. I would like to see more. I think backstage outta Spotify is absolutely fantastic. That's an area just in terms of developer portals and developer efficiency that I think has been very underserved. So seeing Backstage come outta Spotify where they've used it for years, and I think we've already seen they had a huge date, you know, day one event. And I, I think we're gonna see a lot more out of that >>Coming from, I'm an end user, pretend I'm an end user, so pretend I have some code. I want to, Oh man, I'm scared. I don't am I'm gonna lose my competitive edge. What's the, how do you talk to the enterprise out there that might be thinking about putting their project out there for whether it's the benefit of the community, developing talent, developing the product? >>Sure. Yeah. I would say that I, I would ask everyone to think through all of the pros and cons of doing that because it's not for free. I mean, doing open source is costly. It takes developer time, you know, it takes management time, it takes budgeting dollars. But the benefits if successful can be huge, right? I mean, it can be just in terms of, you know, getting people into your company, getting users, getting more features, all of that. So I would always encourage everyone to take a very pragmatic and realistic view of, of what is required to make that happen. >>What was that decision like at Lyft >>When you I I'm gonna be honest, it was very naive. I I think we've, of that we think we need to know. No, just didn't know. Yeah. I think a lot of us, myself included, had very minimal open source experience. And had we known, or had I known what would've happened, I, I still would've done it. But I, I'm gonna be honest, the last seven years have aged me what I feel like is like 70 or a hundred. It's been a >>But you say you look out in the landscape, you gotta take pride, look at what's happened. Oh, it's, I mean, it's like you said, it >>Matured fantastic. I would not trade it for anything, but it has, it has been a journey. What >>Was the biggest surprise? What was the most eye opening thing about the journey for you? >>I, I think actually just the recognition of all of the non-technical things that go into making these things a success. I think at a conference like this, people think a lot about technology. It is a technology conference, but open source is business. It really is. I mean, it, it takes money to keep it going. It takes people to keep >>It going. You gotta sell people on the concepts. >>It takes leadership to keep it going. It takes internal, it takes marketing. Yeah. So for me, what was most eyeopening is over the last five to seven years, I feel like I actually have not developed very many, if any technical skills. But my general leadership skills, you know, that would be applicable again, to running a business have applied so well to, to >>Growing off, Hey, you put it out there, you hear driving the ship. It's good to do that. They need that. It really needs it. And the results speak for itself and congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. What's the update on the project? Give us an update because you're seeing, seeing a lot of infrastructure people having the same problem. Sure. But it's also, the environments are a little bit different. Some people have different architectures. Absolutely different, more cloud, less cloud edges exploding. Yeah. Where does Envoy fit into the landscape they've seen and what's the updates? You've got some new things going on. Give the updates on what's going on with the project Sure. And then how it sits in the ecosystem vis-a-vis what people may use it for. >>Yeah. So I'm, from a core project perspective, honestly, things have matured. Things have stabilized a bit. So a lot of what we focus on now are less Big bang features, but more table stakes. We spend a lot of time on security. We spend a lot of time on software supply chain. A topic that you're probably hearing a lot about at this conference. We have a lot of software supply chain issues. We have shipped Quicken HTB three over the last year. That's generally available. That's a new internet protocol still work happening on web assembly where ha doing a lot of work on our build and release pipeline. Again, you would think that's boring. Yeah. But a lot of people want, you know, packages for their fedora or their ADU or their Docker images. And that takes a lot of effort. So a lot of what we're doing now is more table stakes, just realizing that the project is used around the world very widely. >>Yeah. The thing that I'm most interested in is, we announced in the last six months a project called Envoy Gateway, which is layered on top of Envoy. And the goal of Envoy Gateway is to make it easier for people to run Envoy within Kubernetes. So essentially as an, as an ingress controller. And Envoy is a project historically, it is a very sophisticated piece of software, very complicated piece of software. It's not for everyone. And we want to provide Envoy Gateway as a way of onboarding more users into the Envoy ecosystem and making Envoy the, the default API gateway or edge proxy within Kubernetes. But in terms of use cases, we see Envoy pervasively with service mesh, API gateway, other types of low balancing cases. I mean, honestly, it's, it's all over the place at >>This point. I'm curious because you mentioned it's expanded beyond your wildest dreams. Yeah. And how could you have even imagined what Envoy was gonna do? Is there a use case or an application that really surprised you? >>You know, I've been asked that before and I, it's hard for me to answer that. It's, it's more that, I mean, for example, Envoy is used by basically every major internet company in China. I mean, like, wow. Everyone in China uses Envoy, like TikTok, like Alibaba. I mean like everyone, all >>The large sale, >>Everyone. You know, and it's used, it's used in the, I'm just, it's not just even the us. So I, I think the thing that has surprised me more than individual use cases is just the, the worldwide adoption. You know, that something could be be everywhere. And that I think, you know, when I open my phone and I'm opening all of these apps on my phone, 80 or 90% of them are going through Envoy in some form. Yeah. You know, it's, it's just that pervasive, I blow your mind a little bit sometimes >>That does, that's why you say plumber on your Twitter handle as your title. Cause you're working on all these things that are like really important substrate issues, Right. For scale, stability, growth. >>And, you know, to, I, I guess the only thing that I would add is, my goal for Envoy has always been that it is that boring, transparent piece of technology. Kind of similar to Linux. Linux is everywhere. Right? But no one really knows that they're using Linux. It's, it's justs like Intel inside, we're not paying attention. It's just there, there's >>A core group working on, if they have pride, they understand the mission, the importance of it, and they make their job is to make it invisible. >>Right. Exactly. >>And that's really ease of use. What's some of the ease of use sways and, and simplicity that you're working on, if you can talk about that. Because to be boring, you gotta be simpler and easier. All boring complex is unique is not boring. Complex is stressful. No, >>I I think we approach it in a couple different ways. One of them is that because we view Envoy as a, as a base technology in the ecosystem, we're starting to see, you know, not only vendors, but other open source projects that are being built on top of Envoy. So things like API Gateway, sorry, Envoy Gateway or you know, projects like Istio or all the other projects that are out there. They use Envoy as a component, but in some sense Envoy is a, as a transparent piece of that system. Yeah. So I'm a big believer in the ecosystem that we need to continue to make cloud native easier for, for end users. I still think it's too complicated. And so I think we're there, we're, we're pushing up the stack a bit. >>Yeah. And that brings up a good point. When you start seeing people building on top of things, right? That's enabling. So as you look at the enablement of Envoy, what are some of the things you see out on the horizon if you got the 20 mile stare out as you check these boring boxes, make it more plumbing, Right? Stable. You'll have a disruptive enabling platform. Yeah. What do you see out there? >>I am, you know, I, again, I'm not a big buzzword person, but, so some people call it serverless functions as a service, whatever. I'm a big believer in platforms in the sense that I really believe in the next 10 to 15 years, developers, they want to provide code. You know, they want to call APIs, they want to use pub subsystems, they want to use cas and databases. And honestly, they don't care about container scheduling or networking or load balancing or any of >>These things. It's handled in the os >>They just want it to be part of the operating system. Yeah, exactly. So I, I really believe that whether it's an open source or in cloud provider, you know, package solutions, that we're going to be just moving increasingly towards systems likes Lambda and Fargate and Google Cloud Run and Azure functions and all those kinds of things. And I think that when you do that much of the functionality that has historically powered this conference like Kubernetes and Onvoy, these become critical but transparent components that people don't, they're not really aware of >>At that point. Yeah. And I think that's a great call out because one of the things we're seeing is the market forces of, of this evolution, what you just said is what has to happen Yep. For digital transformation to, to get to its conclusion. Yep. Which means that everything doesn't have to serve the business, it is the business. Right. You know it in the old days. Yep. Engineers, they serve the business. Like what does that even mean? Yep. Now, right. Developers are the business, so they need that coding environment. So for your statement to happen, that simplicity in visibility calling is invisible os has to happen. So it brings up the question in open source, the trend is things always work itself out on the wash, as we say. So when you start having these debates and the alignment has to come at some point, you can't get to those that stay without some sort of defacto or consensus. Yep. And even standards, I'm not a big be around hardcore standards, but we can all agree and have consensus Sure. That will align behind, say Kubernetes, It's Kubernetes a standard. It's not like an i e you know, but this next, what, what's your reaction to this? Because this alignment has to come after debate. So all the process contending for I am the this of that. >>Yeah. I'm a look, I mean, I totally see the value in like i e e standards and, and there's a place for that. At the same time, for me personally as a technologist, as an engineer, I prefer to let the, the market as it were sort out what are the defacto standards. So for example, at least with Envoy, Envoy has an API that we call Xds. Xds is now used beyond Envoy. It's used by gc, it's used by proprietary systems. And I'm a big believer that actually Envoy in its form is probably gonna go away before Xds goes away. So in some ways Xds has become a defacto standard. It's not an i e e standard. Yeah. We, we, we have been asked about whether we should do that. Yeah. But I just, I I think the >>It becomes a component. >>It becomes a component. Yeah. And then I think people gravitate towards these things that become de facto standards. And I guess I would rather let the people on the show floor decide what are the standards than have, you know, 10 people sitting in a room figure out >>The community define standards versus organizational institutional defined standards. >>And they both have places a >>Hundred percent. Yeah, sure. And, and there's social proof in both of them. Yep. >>Frankly, >>And we were saying on the cube that we believe that the developers will decide the standard. Sure. Because that's what you're basically saying. They're deciding what they do with their code. Right. And over time, as people realize the trade of, hey, if everyone's coding this right. And makes my life easier to get to that state of nirvana and enlightenment, as we would say. Yeah. Yeah. >>Starting strong this morning. John, I I love this. I'm curious, you mentioned Backstage by Spotify wonderful example. Do you think that this is a trend we're gonna see with more end users >>Creating open source projects? Like I, you know, I hope so. The flip side of that, and as we all know, we're entering an uncertain economic time and it can be hard to justify the effort that it takes to do it well. And what I typically counsel people when they are about to open source something is don't do it unless you're ready to commit the resources. Because opensourcing something and not supporting it. Yeah. I actually can be think, I think it'd be worse. >>It's an, it's insult that people, you're asking to commit to something. Exactly. Needs of time, need the money investment, you gotta go all in and push. >>So I, so I very much want to see it and, and I want to encourage that here, but it's hard for me to look into the crystal ball and know, you know, whether it's gonna happen more >>Or less at what point there were, are there too many projects? You know, I mean, but I'm not, I mean this in, in a, in a negative way. I mean it more in the way of, you know, you mentioned supply chain. We were riffing on the cube about at some point there's gonna be so much code open source continuing thundering away with, with the value that you're just gluing things. Right. I don't need the code, this code there. Okay. What's in the code? Okay. Maybe automation can help out on supply chain. Yeah. But ultimately composability is the new >>Right? It is. Yeah. And, and I think that's always going to be the case. Case. Good thing. It is good thing. And I, I think that's just, that's just the way of things for sure. >>So no code will be, >>I think, I think we're seeing a lot of no code situations that are working great for people. And, and, but this is actually really no different than my, than my serverless arguing from before. Just as a, as a, a slight digression. I'm building something new right now and you know, we're using cloud native technologies and all this stuff and it's still, >>What are you building? >>Even as a I'm, I'm gonna keep that, I'm gonna keep that secret. I know I'm, but >>We'll find out on Twitter. We're gonna find out now that we know it. Okay. Keep on mystery. You open that door. We're going down see in a couple weeks. >>Front >>Page is still an angle. >>But I, I was just gonna say that, you know, and I consider myself, you know, you're building something, I'm, I see myself an expert in the cloud native space. It's still difficult, It's difficult to, to pull together these technologies and I think that we will continue to make it easier for people. >>What's the biggest difficulties? Can you give us some examples? >>Well, just, I mean, we still live in a big mess of yammel, right? Is a, there's a, there's a lot of yaml out there. And I think just wrangling all of that in these systems, there's still a lot of cobbling together where I think that there can be unified platforms that make it easier for us to focus on our application logic. >>Yeah. I gotta ask you a question cuz I've talked to college kids all the time. My son's a junior in CS and he's, you know, he's coding away. What would you, how does a student or someone who's learning figure out where, who they are? Because there's now, you know, you're either into the infrastructure under the hood Yeah. Or you're, cuz that's coding there option now coding the way your infrastructure people are working on say the boring stuff so everyone else can have ease of use. And then what is just, I wanna just code, there's two types of personas. How does someone know who they are? >>My, when I give people career advice, my biggest piece of advice to them is in the first five to seven to 10 years of their career, I encourage people to do different things like every say one to two to three years. And that doesn't mean like quitting companies and changing companies, it could mean, you know, within a company that they join doing different teams, you know, working on front end versus back end. Because honestly I think people don't know. I think it's actually very, Yeah. Our industry is so broad. Yeah. That I think it's almost impossible to >>Know. You gotta get your hands dirty to jump >>In order to know what you like. And for me, in my career, you know, I've dabbled in different areas, but I've always come back to infrastructure, you know, that that's what I enjoy >>The most. Okay. You gotta, you gotta taste everything. See what you, what >>You like. Exactly. >>Right. Last question for you, Matt. It's been three years since you were here. Yep. What do you hope that we're able to say next year? That we can't say this year? Hmm. Beyond the secrets of your project, which hopefully we will definitely be discussing then. >>You know, I I, I don't have anything in particular. I would just say that I would like to see more movement towards projects that are synthesizing and making it easier to use a lot of the existing projects that we have today. So for example, I'm, I'm very bullish on backstage. Like I, I've, I've always said that we need better developer UIs that are not CLIs. Like I know it's a general perception among many people. Totally agree with you. Frankly, you're not a real systems engineer unless you type on the command line. I, I think better user interfaces are better for humans. Yep. So just for a project like Backstage to be more integrated with the rest of the projects, whether that be Envo or Kubernete or Argo or Flagger. I, I just, I think there's tremendous potential for further integration of some >>Of these projects. It just composability That makes total sense. Yep. Yep. You're, you're op you're operating and composing. >>Yep. And there's no reason that user experience can't be better. And then more people can create and build. So I think it's awesome. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, this has been fantastic. Be sure and check out Matt on Twitter to find out what that next secret project is. John, thank you for joining me this morning. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll be here all day live from the cube. We hope you'll be joining us throughout the evening until a happy hour today. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Boston, Massachusetts. We're here at the Seaport. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. My name is Dave Vellante and Paul Gillin is here. He's my cohost for the next day. We are going to dig in to the famous RHEL, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar Hellekson is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Gunnar, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me. Nice to be here, Dave, Paul. >> RHEL 9 is, wow, nine, Holy cow. It's been a lot of iterations. >> It's the highest version of RHEL we've ever shipped. >> And now we're talking edge. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And so, what's inside, tell us. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. to keep happy with a new RHEL release. The first is the hardware partners, right, because they rely on RHEL to light up all their delicious hardware that they're making, then you got application developers and the ISVs who rely on RHEL to be that kind of stable platform for innovation, and then you've got the operators, the people who are actually using the operating system itself and trying to keep it running every day. So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, So we've got on the, I'll start with the hardware side, which is something, as you know, RHEL success, and I think you talked about this with Matt, just in a few sessions earlier that the success of RHEL is really, hinges on our partnerships with the hardware partners and in this case, we've got, let's see, in RHEL 9 we've got all the usual hardware suspects and we've added, just recently in January, we added support for ARM servers, as general ARM server class hardware. And so that's something customers have been asking for, delighted to be shipping that in RHEL 9. So now ARM is kind of a first-class citizen, right? Alongside x86, PowerZ and all the other usual suspects. And then of course, working with our favorite public cloud providers. So making sure that RHEL 9 is available at AWS and Azure and GCP and all our other cloud friends, right? >> Yeah, you mentioned ARM, we're seeing ARM in the enterprise. We're obviously seeing ARM at the edge. You guys have been working with ARM for a long time. You're working with Intel, you're working with NVIDIA, you've got some announcements this week. Gunnar, how do you keep Linux from becoming Franken OS with all these capabilities? >> This is a great question. First is, the most important thing is to be working closely with, I mean, the whole point of Linux and the reason why Linux works is because you have all these people working together to make the same thing, right? And so fighting that is a bad idea. Working together with everyone, leaning into that collaboration, that's an important part of making it work over time. The other one is having, just like in any good relationship, having healthy boundaries. And so making sure that we're clear about the things that we need to keep stable and the places where we're allowed to innovate and striking the right balance between those two things, that allows us to continue to ship one coherent operating system while still keeping literally thousands of platforms happy. >> So you're not trying to suck in all the full function, you're trying to accommodate that function that the ecosystem is going to develop? >> Yeah, that's right. So the idea is that what we strive for is consistency across all of the infrastructures and then allowing for kind of optimizations and we still let ourselves take advantage of whatever indigenous feature might appear on, such an ARM chip or thus in a such cloud platform. But really, we're trying to deliver a uniform platform experience to the application developers, right? Because they can't be having, like there can't be kind of one version of RHEL over here and another version of RHEL over here, the ecosystem wouldn't work. The whole point of Linux and the whole point of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is to be the same so that everything else can be different. >> And what incentives do you use to keep customers current? >> To keep customers current? Well so the best thing to do I found is to meet customers where they are. So a lot of people think we release RHEL 9 at the same time we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8, we have Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7, all these are running at the same time, and then we also have multiple minor release streams inside those. So at any given time, we're running, let's say, a dozen different versions of RHEL are being maintained and kept up-to-date, and we do this precisely to make sure that we're not force marching people into the new version and they have a Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription, they should just be able to sit there and enjoy the minor version that they like. And we try and keep that going for as long as possible. >> Even if it's 10 years out of date? >> So, 10 years, interesting you chose that number because that's the end of life. >> That's the end of the life cycle. >> Right. And so 10 years is about, that's the natural life of a given major release, but again inside that you have several 10-year life cycles kind of cascading on each other, right? So nine is the start of the next 10-year cycle while we're still living inside the 10-year cycle of seven and eight. So lots of options for customers. >> How are you thinking about the edge? how do you define, let's not go to the definition, but at high level. (Gunnar laughing) Like I've been in a conference last week. It was Dell Tech World, I'll just say it. They were sort of the edge to them was the retail store. >> Yeah. >> Lowe's, okay, cool, I guess that's edgy, I guess, But I think space is the edge. (Gunnar chuckling) >> Right, right, right. >> Or a vehicle. How do you think about the edge? All the above or but the exciting stuff to me is that far edge, but I wonder if you can comment. >> Yeah, so there's all kinds of taxonomies out there for the edge. For me, I'm a simple country product manager at heart and so, I try to keep it simple, right? And the way I think about the edge is, here's a use case in which somebody needs a small operating system that deploys on probably a small piece of hardware, usually varying sizes, but it could be pretty small. That thing needs to be updated without any human touching it, right? And it needs to be reliably maintained without any human touching it. Usually in the edge cases, actually touching the hardware is a very expensive proposition. So we're trying to be as hands off as possible. >> No truck rolls. >> No truck rolls ever, right, exactly. (Dave chuckling) And then, now that I've got that stable base, I'm going to go take an application. I'll probably put it in a container for simplicity's sake and same thing, I want to be able to deploy that application. If something goes wrong, I need to build a roll back to a known good state and then I need to set of management tools that allow me to touch things, make sure that everything is healthy, make sure that the updates roll out correctly, maybe do some AB testing, things like that. So I think about that as, that's the, when we talk about the edge case for RHEL, that's the horizontal use case and then we can do specializations inside particular verticals or particular industries, but at bottom that's the use case we're talking about when we talk about the edge. >> And an assumption of connectivity at some point? >> Yeah. >> Right, you didn't have to always be on. >> Intermittent, latent, eventual connectivity. >> Eventual connectivity. (chuckles) That's right in some tech terms. >> Red Hat was originally a one trick pony. I mean, RHEL was it and now you've got all of these other extensions and different markets that you expanded into. What's your role in coordinating what all those different functions are doing? >> Yes, you look at all the innovations we've made, whether it's in storage, whether it's in OpenShift and elsewhere, RHEL remains the beating heart, right? It's the place where everything starts. And so a lot of what my team does is, yes, we're trying to make all the partners happy, we're also trying to make our internal partners happy, right? So the OpenShift folks need stuff out of RHEL, just like any other software vendor. And so I really think about RHEL is yes, we're a platform, yes, we're a product in our own right, but we're also a service organization for all the other parts of the portfolio. And the reason for that is we need to make sure all this stuff works together, right? Part of the whole reasoning behind the Red Hat Portfolio at large is that each of these pieces build on each other and compliment each other, right? I think that's an important part of the Red Hat mission, the RHEL mission. >> There's an article in the journal yesterday about how the tech industry was sort of pounding the drum on H-1B visas, there's a limit. I think it's been the same limit since 2005, 65,000 a year. We are facing, customers are facing, you guys, I'm sure as well, we are, real skills shortage, there's a lack of talent. How are you seeing companies deal with that? What are you advising them? What are you guys doing yourselves? >> Yeah, it's interesting, especially as everybody went through some flavor of digital transformation during the pandemic and now everybody's going through some, and kind of connected to that, everybody's making a move to the public cloud. They're making operating system choices when they're making those platform choices, right? And I think what's interesting is that, what they're coming to is, "Well, I have a Linux skills shortage and for a thousand reasons the market has not provided enough Linux admins." I mean, these are very lucrative positions, right? With command a lot of money, you would expect their supply would eventually catch up, but for whatever reason, it's not catching up. So I can't solve this by throwing bodies at it so I need to figure out a more efficient way of running my Linux operation. People are making a couple choices. The first is they're ensuring that they have consistency in their operating system choices, whether it's on premise or in the cloud, or even out on the edge, if I have to juggle three, four different operating systems, as I'm going through these three or four different infrastructures, that doesn't make any sense, 'cause the one thing is most precious to me is my Linux talent, right? And so I need to make sure that they're consistent, optimized and efficient. The other thing they're doing is tooling and automation and especially through tools like Ansible, right? Being able to take advantage of as much automation as possible and much consistency as possible so that they can make the most of the Linux talent that they do have. And so with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9, in particular, you see us make a big investment in things like more automation tools for things like SAP and SQL server deployments, you'll see us make investments in things like basic stuff like the web console, right? We should now be able to go and point and click and go basic Linux administration tasks that lowers the barrier to entry and makes it easier to find people to actually administer the systems that you have. >> As you move out onto these new platforms, particularly on the edge, many of them will be much smaller, limited function. How do you make the decisions about what features you're going to keep or what you're going to keep in RHEL when you're running on a thermostat? >> Okay, so let me be clear, I don't want RHEL to run on a thermostat. (everybody laughing) >> I gave you advantage over it. >> I can't handle the margins on something like that, but at the end. >> You're running on, you're running on the GM. >> Yeah, no that's, right? And so the, so the choice at the, the most important thing we can do is give customers the tools that they need to make the choice that's appropriate for their deployment. I have learned over several years in this business that if I start choosing what content a customer decide wants on their operating system I will always guess it wrong, right? So my job is to make sure that I have a library of reliable, secure software options for them, that they can use as ingredients into their solution. And I give them tools that allow them to kind of curate the operating system that they need. So that's the tool like Image Builder, which we just announced, the image builder service lets a customer go in and point and click and kind of compose the edge operating system they need, hit a button and now they have an atomic image that they can go deploy out on the edge reliably, right? >> Gunnar can you clarify the cadence of releases? >> Oh yeah. >> You guys, the change that you made there. >> Yeah. >> Why that change occurred and what what's the standard today? >> Yeah, so back when we released RHEl 8, so we were just talking about hardware and you know, it's ARM and X86, all these different kinds of hardware, the hardware market is internally. I tell everybody the hardware market just got real weird, right? It's just got, the schedules are crazy. We got so many more entrance. Everything is kind of out of sync from where it used to be, it used to be there was a metronome, right? You mentioned Moore's law earlier. It was like a 18 month metronome. Everybody could kind of set their watch to. >> Right. >> So that's gone, and so now we have so much hardware that we need to reconcile. The only way for us to provide the kind of stability and consistency that customers were looking for was to set a set our own clock. So we said three years for every major release, six months for every minor release and that we will ship a new minor release every six months and a new major release every three years, whether we need it or not. And that has value all by itself. It means that customers can now plan ahead of time and know, okay, in 36 months, the next major release is going to come on. And now that's something I can plan my workload around, that something I can plan a data center migration around, things like that. So the consistency of this and it was a terrifying promise to make three years ago. I am now delighted to announce that we actually made good on it three years later, right? And plan two again, three years from now. >> Is it follow up, is it primarily the processor, optionality and diversity, or as I was talking to an architect, system architect the other day in his premise was that we're moving from a processor centric world to a connect centric world, not just the processor, but the memories, the IO, the controllers, the nics and it's just keeping that system in balance. Does that affect you or is it primarily the processor? >> Oh, it absolutely affects us, yeah. >> How so? >> Yeah, so the operating system is the thing that everyone relies on to hide all that stuff from everybody else, right? And so if we cannot offer that abstraction from all of these hardware choices that people need to make, then we're not doing our job. And so that means we have to encompass all the hardware configurations and all the hardware use cases that we can in order to make an application successful. So if people want to go disaggregate all of their components, we have to let 'em do that. If they want to have a kind of more traditional kind of boxed up OEM experience, they should be able to do that too. So yeah, this is what I mean is because it is RHEL responsibility and our duty to make sure that people are insulated from all this chaos underneath, that is a good chunk of the job, yeah. >> The hardware and the OS used to be inseparable right before (indistinct) Hence the importance of hardware. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I'm curious how your job changes, so you just, every 36 months you roll on a new release, which you did today, you announced a new release. You go back into the workplace two days, how is life different? >> Not at all, so the only constant is change, right? And to be honest, a major release, that's a big event for our release teams. That's a big event for our engineering teams. It's a big event for our product management teams, but all these folks have moved on and like we're now we're already planning. RHEL 9.1 and 9.2 and 8.7 and the rest of the releases. And so it's kind of like brief celebration and then right back to work. >> Okay, don't change so much. >> What can we look forward to? What's the future look like of RHEL, RHEL 10? >> Oh yeah, more bigger, stronger, faster, more optimized for those and such and you get, >> Longer lower, wider. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah. >> I am curious about CentOS Stream because there was some controversy around the end of life for CentOS and the move to CentOS Stream. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people including me are not really clear on what stream is and how it differs from CentOS, can you clarify that? >> Absolutely, so when Red Hat Enterprise Linux was first created, this was back in the days of Red Hat Linux, right? And because we couldn't balance the needs of the hobbyist market from the needs of the enterprise market, we split into Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora, okay? So then for 15 years, yeah, about 15 years we had Fedora which is where we took all of our risks. That was kind of our early program where we started integrating new components, new open source projects and all the rest of it. And then eventually we would take that innovation and then feed it into the next version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The trick with that is that the Red Hat Enterprise Linux work that we did was largely internal to Red Hat and wasn't accessible to partners. And we've just spent a lot of time talking about how much we need to be collaborating with partners. They really had, a lot of them had to wait until like the beta came out before they actually knew what was going to be in the box, okay, well that was okay for a while but now that the market is the way that it is, things are moving so quickly. We need a better way to allow partners to work together with us further upstream from the actual product development. So that's why we created CentOS Stream. So CentOS Stream is the place where we kind of host the party and people can watch the next version of Red Hat Enterprise get developed in real time, partners can come in and help, customers can come in and help. And we've been really proud of the fact that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first release that came completely out of CentOS Stream. Another way of putting that is that Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9 is the first version of RHEL that was actually built, 80, 90% of it was built completely in the open. >> Okay, so that's the new playground. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You took a lot of negative pushback when you made the announcement, is that basically because the CentOS users didn't understand what you were doing? >> No, I think the, the CentOS Linux, when we brought CentOS Linux on, this was one of the things that we wanted to do, is we wanted to create this space where we could start collaborating with people. Here's the lesson we learned. It is very difficult to collaborate when you are downstream of the product you're trying to improve because you've already shipped the product. And so once you're for collaborating downstream, any changes you make have to go all the way up the water slide and before they can head all the way back down. So this was the real pivot that we made was moving that partnership and that collaboration activity from the downstream of Red Hat Enterprise Linux to putting it right in the critical path of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development. >> Great, well, thank you for that Gunnar. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, it's great to, >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> See you and have a great day tomorrow. Thanks, and we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. We start at 9:00 AM. East Coast time. I think the keynotes, we will be here right after that to break that down, Paul Gillin and myself. This is day one for theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022 from Boston. We'll see you tomorrow, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this startup showcase. It's great to be here and talk about some of the innovations we are doing at AWS, how we work with our partner community, especially our open source partners. My name is Deepak Singh. I run our compute services organization, which is a very vague way of saying that I run a number of things that are connected together through compute. Very specifically, I run a container services organization. So for those of you who are into containers, ECS, EKS, fargate, ECR, App Runner Those are all teams that are within my org. I also run the Amazon Linux and BottleRocketing. So anything AWS does with Linux, both externally and internally, as well as our high-performance computing team. And perhaps very relevant to this discussion, I run the Amazon open source program office. Serving at AWS for over 13 years, almost 14, involved with compute in various ways, including EC2. What that has done has given me a vantage point of seeing how our customers use the services that we build for them, how they leverage various partner solutions, and along the way, how AWS itself has gotten involved with opensource. And I'll try and talk to you about some of those factors and how they impact, how you consume our services. So why don't we get started? So for many of you, you know, one of the things, there's two ways to look at AWS and open-source and Amazon in general. One is the number of contributors you may have. And the number of repositories that contribute to. Those are just a couple of measures. There are people that I work with on a regular basis, who will remind you that, those are not perfect measures. Sometimes you could just contribute to one thing and have outsized impact because of the nature of that thing. But it address being what it is, increasingly we'll look at different ways in which we can help contribute and enhance open source 'cause we consume a lot of it as well. I'll talk about it very specifically from the space that I work in the container space in particular, where we've worked a lot with people in the Kubernetes community. We've worked a lot with people in the broader CNCF community, as well as, you know, small projects that our customers might have got started off with. For example, I want to like talking about is Argo CD from Intuit. We were very actively involved with helping them figure out what to do with it. And it was great to see how into it. And we worked, etc, came together to think about get-ups at the Kubernetes level. And while those are their projects, we've always been involved with them. So we try and figure out what's important to our customers, how we can help and then take because of that. Well, let's talk about a little bit more, here's some examples of the kinds of open source projects that Amazon and AWS contribute to. They arranged from the open JDK. I think we even now have our own implementation of Java, the Corretto open source project. We contribute to projects like rust, where we are very active in the rest foundation from a leadership role as well, the robot operating system, just to pick some, we collaborate with Facebook and actively involved with the pirates project. And there's many others. You can see all the logos in here where we participate either because they're important to us as AWS in the services that we run or they're important to our customers and the services that they consume or the open source projects they care about and how we get to those. How we get and make those decisions is often depends on the importance of that particular project. At that point in time, how much impact they're having to AWS customers, or sometimes very feel that us contributing to that project is super critical because it helps us build more robust services. I'll talk about it in a completely, you know, somewhat different basis. You may have heard of us talk about our new next generation of Amazon Linux 2022, which is based on fedora as its sub stream. One of the reasons we made this decision was it allows us to go and participate in the preneurial project and make sure that the upstream project is robust, stays robust. And that, that what that ends up being is that Amazon Linux 2022 will be a robust operating system with the kinds of capabilities that our customers are asking for. That's just one example of how we think about it. So for example, you know, the Python software foundation is something that we work with very closely because so many of our customers use Python. So we help run something like PyPy which is many, you know, if you're a Python developer, I happened to be a Ruby one, but lots of our customers use Python and helping the Python project be robust by making sure PyPy is available to everybody is something that we help provide credits for help support in other ways. So it's not just code. It can mean many different ways of contributing as well, but in the end code and operations is where we hang our happens. Good examples of this is projects that we will create an open source because it makes sense to make sure that we open source some of the core primitives or foundations that are part of our own services. A great example of that, whether this be things that we open source or things that we contribute to. And I'll talk about both and I'll talk about things near and dear to my heart. There's many examples I've picked the two that I like talking about. The first of these is firecracker. Many of you have heard about it, a firecracker for those of you who don't know is a very lightweight virtual machine manager, which allows you to run these micro VMs. And why was this important many years ago when we started Lambda and quite honestly, Fugate and foggy, it still runs quite a bit in that mode, we used to have to run on VMs like everything else and finding the right VM for the size of tasks that somebody asks for the size of function that somebody asks for is requires us to provision capacity ahead of time. And it also wastes a lot of capacity because Lambda function is small. You won't even if you find the smallest VM possible, those can be a little that can be challenging. And you know, there's a lot of resources that are being wasted. VM start at a particular speed because they have to do a whole bunch of things before the operating system spins up and the virtual machine spins up and we asked ourselves, can we do better? come up with something that allows us to create right size, very lightweight, very fast booting. What's your machines, micro virtual machine that we ended up calling them. That's what led to firecracker. And we open source the project. And today firecrackers use, not just by AWS Lambda or foggy, but by a number of other folks, there's companies like fly IO that are using it. We know people using firecracker to run Kubernetes on prem on bare metal as an example. So we've seen a lot of other folks embrace it and use it as the foundation for building their own serverless services, their own container services. And we think there's a lot of value and learnings that we can bring to the table because we get the experience of operating at scale, but other people can bring to the table cause they may have specific requirements that we may not find it as important from an AWS perspective. So that's firecracker an example of a project where we contribute because we feel it's fundamentally important to us as continually. We were found, you know, we've been involved with continuity from the beginning. Today, we are a whole team that does nothing else, but contribute to container D because container D underlies foggy. It underlies our Kubernetes offerings. And it's increasingly being used by customers directly by their placement. You know, where they're running container D instead of running a full on Docker or similar container engine, what it has allowed us to do is focus on what's important so that we can operate continuously at scale, keep it robust and secure, add capabilities to it that AWS customers need manifested often through foggy Kubernetes, but in the end, it's a win-win for everybody. It makes continuously better. If you want to use containers for yourself on AWS, that's a great way to you. You know, you still, you still benefit from all the work that we're doing. The decision we took was since it's so important to us and our customers, we wanted a team that lived in breathed container D and made sure a super robust and there's many, many examples like that. No, that we ended up participating in, either by taking a project that exists or open sourcing our own. Here's an example of some of the open source projects that we have done from an AWS on Amazon perspective. And there's quite a few when I was looking at this list, I was quite surprised, not quite surprised I've seen the reports before, but every time I do, I have to recount and say, that's a lot more than one would have thought, even though I'd been looking at it for such a long time, examples of this in my world alone are things like, you know, what work had to do with Amazon Linux BottleRocket, which is a container host operating system. That's been open-sourced from day one. Firecracker is something we talked about. We have a project called AWS peril cluster, which allows you to spin up high performance computing clusters on AWS using the kind of schedulers you may use to use like slum. And that's an open source project. We have plenty of source projects in the web development space, in the security space. And more recently things like the open 3d engine, which is something that we are very excited about and that'd be open sourced a few months ago. And so there's a number of these projects that cover everything from tooling to developer, application frameworks, all the way to database and analytics and machine learning. And you'll notice that in a few areas, containers, as an example, machine learning as an example, our default is to go with open source option is where we can open source. And it makes sense for us to do so where we feel the product community might benefit from it. That's our default stance. The CNCF, the cloud native computing foundation is something that we've been involved with quite a bit. You know, we contribute to Kubernetes, be contribute to Envoy. I talked about continuity a bit. We've also contributed projects like CDK 8, which marries the AWS cloud development kit with Kubernetes. It's now a sandbox project in Kubernetes, and those are some of the areas. CNCF is such a wide surface area. We don't contribute to everything, but we definitely participate actively in CNCF with projects like HCB that are critical to eat for us. We are very, very active in just how the project evolves, but also try and see which of the projects that are important to our customers who are running Kubernetes maybe by themselves or some other project on AWS. Envoy is a good example. Kubernetes itself is a good example because in the end, we want to make sure that people running Kubernetes on AWS, even if they are not using our services are successful and we can help them, or we can work on the projects that are important to them. That's kind of how we think about the world. And it's worked pretty well for us. We've done a bunch of work on the Kubernetes side to make sure that we can integrate and solve a customer problem. We've, you know, from everything from models to work that we have done with gravity on our arm processor to a virtual GPU plugin that allows you to share and media GPU resources to the elastic fabric adapter, which are the network device for high performance computing that it can use at Kubernetes on AWS, along with things that directly impact Kubernetes customers like the CDKs project. I talked about work that we do with the container networking interface to the Amazon control of a Kubernetes, which is an open source project that allows you to use other AWS services directly from Kubernetes clusters. Again, you notice success, Kubernetes, not EKS, which is a managed Kubernetes service, because if we want you to be successful with Kubernetes and AWS, whether using our managed service or running your own, or some third party service. Similarly, we worked with premetheus. We now have a managed premetheus service. And at reinvent last year, we announced the general availability of this thing called carpenter, which is a provisioning and auto-scaling engine for Kubernetes, which is also an open source project. But here's the beauty of carpenter. You don't have to be using EKS to use it. Anyone running Kubernetes on AWS can leverage it. We focus on the AWS provider, but we've built it in such a way that if you wanted to take carpenter and implemented on prem or another cloud provider, that'd be completely okay. That's how it's designed and what we anticipated people may want to do. I talked a little bit about BottleRocket it's our Linux-based open-source operating system. And the thing that we have done with BottleRocket is make sure that we focus on security and the needs of customers who want to run orchestrated container, very focused on that problem. So for example, BottleRocket only has essential software needed to run containers, se Linux. I just notice it says that's the lineups, but I'm sure that, you know, Lena Torvalds will be pretty happy. And seeing that SE linux is enabled by default, we use things like DM Verity, and it has a read only root file system, no shell, you can assess it. You can install it if you wanted to. We allowed it to create different bill types, variants as we call them, you can create a variant for a non AWS resource as well. If you have your own homegrown container orchestrator, you can create a variant for that. It's designed to be used in many different contexts and all of that is open sourced. And then we use the update framework to publish and secure repository and kind of how this transactional system way of updating the software. And it's something that we didn't invent, but we have embraced wholeheartedly. It's a bottle rockets, completely open source, you know, have partners like Aqua, where who develop security tools for containers. And for them, you know, something I bought in rocket is a natural partnership because people are running a container host operating system. You can use Aqua tooling to make sure that they have a secure Indiana environment. And we see many more examples like that. You may think so over us, it's all about AWS proprietary technology because Lambda is a proprietary service. But you know, if you look peek under the covers, that's not necessarily true. Lambda runs on top of firecracker, as we've talked about fact crackers and open-source projects. So the foundation of Lambda in many ways is open source. What it also allows people to do is because Lambda runs at such extreme scale. One of the things that firecracker is really good for is running at scale. So if you want to build your own firecracker base at scale service, you can have most of the confidence that as long as your workload fits the design parameters, a firecracker, the battle hardening the robustness is being proved out day-to-day by services at scale like Lambda and foggy. For those of you who don't know service support services, you know, in the end, our goal with serverless is to make sure that you don't think about all the infrastructure that your applications run on. We focus on business logic as much as you can. That's how we think about it. And serverless has become its own quote-unquote "Sort of environment." The number of partners and open-source frameworks and tools that are spun up around serverless. In which case mostly, I mean, Lambda, API gateway. So it says like that is pretty high. So, you know, number of open source projects like Zappa server serverless framework, there's so many that have come up that make it easier for our customers to consume AWS services like Lambda and API gateway. We've also done some of our own tooling and frameworks, a serverless application model, AWS jealous. If you're a Python developer, we have these open service runtimes for Lambda, rust dot other options. We have amount of number of tools that we opened source. So in general, you'll find that tooling that we do runtime will tend to be always be open-sourced. We will often take some of the guts of the things that we use to build our systems like firecracker and open-source them while the control plane, etc, AWS services may end up staying proprietary, which is the case in Lambda. Increasingly our customers build their applications and leverage the broader AWS partner network. The AWS partner network is a network of partnerships that we've built of trusted partners. when you go to the APN website and find a partner, they know that that partner meets a certain set of criteria that AWS has developed, and you can rely on those partners for your own business. So whether you're a little tiny business that wants some function fulfill that you don't have the resources for or large enterprise that wants all these applications that you've been using on prem for a long time, and want to keep leveraging them in the cloud, you can go to APN and find that partner and then bring their solution on as part of your cloud infrastructure and could even be a systems integrator, for example, to help you solve this specific development problem that you may have a need for. Increasingly, you know, one of the things we like to do is work with an apartment community that is full of open-source providers. So a great one, there's so many, and you have, we have a panel discussion with many other partners as well, who make it easier for you to build applications on AWS, all open source and built on open source. But I like to call it a couple of them. The first one of them is TIDELIFT. TIDELIFT, For those of you who don't know is a company that provides SAS based tools to curate track, manage open source catalogs. You know, they have a whole network of maintainers and providers. They help, if you're an independent open developer, or a smart team should probably get to know TIDELIFT. They provide you benefits and, you know, capabilities as a developer and maintainer that are pretty unique and really help. And I've seen a number of our open source community embraced TIDELIFT quite honestly, even before they were part of the APN. But as part of the partner network, they get to participate in things like ISP accelerate and they get to they're officially an advanced tier partner because they are, they migrated the SAS offering onto AWS. But in the end, if you're part of the open source supply chain, you're a maintainer, you are a developer. I would recommend working with TIDELIFT because their goal is making all of you who are developing open source solutions, especially on AWS, more successful. And that's why I enjoy this partnership with them. And I'm looking to do a lot more because I think as a company, we want to make sure that open source developers don't feel like they are not supported because all you have to do is read various forums. It's challenging often to be a maintainer, especially of a small project. So I think with helping with licensing license management, security identification remediation, helping these maintainers is a big part of what TIDELIFT to us and it was great to see them as part of a partner network. Another partner that I like to call sysdig. I actually got introduced to them many years ago when they first launched. And one of the things that happened where they were super interested in some of our serverless stuff. And we've been trying to figure out how we can work together because all of our customers are interested in the capabilities that cystic provides. And over the last few years, he found a number of areas where we can collaborate. So sysdig, I know them primarily in a security company. So people use cystic to secure the bills, detect, you know, do threat response, threat detection, completely continuously validate their posture, get this continuous analytics signal on how they're doing and monitor performance. At the end of it, it's a SAS platform. They have a very nice open source security stack. The one I'm most familiar with. And I think most of you are probably familiar with is Falco. You know, sysdig, a CNCF project has been super popular. It's just to go SSS what 3, 37, 40 million downloads by now. So that's pretty, pretty cool. And they have been a great partner because we've had to do make sure that their solution works at target, which is not a natural place for their software to run, but there was enough demand and interest from our customers that, you know, or both companies leaned in to make sure they can be successful. So last year sister got a security competency. We have a number of specific competencies that we for our partners, they have integration and security hub is great. partners are lean in the way cystic has onto making our customer successful. And working with us are the best partners that we have. And there's a number of open source companies out there built on open source where their entire portfolio is built on open source software or the active participants like we are that we love working with on a day to day basis. So, you know, I think the thing I would like to, as we wind this out in this presentation is, you know, AWS is constantly looking for partnerships because our partners enable our customers. They could be with companies like Redis with Mongo, confluent with Databricks customers. Your default reaction might be, "Hey, these are companies that maybe compete with AWS." but no, I mean, I think we are partners as well, like from somebody at the lower end of the spectrum where people run on top of the services that I own on Linux and containers are SE 2, For us, these partners are just as important customers as any AWS service or any third party, 20 external customer. And so it's not a zero sum game. We look forward to working with all these companies and open source projects from an AWS perspective, a big part of how, where my open source program spends its time is making it easy for our developers to contribute, to open source, making it easy for AWS teams to decide when to open source software or participate in open source projects. Over the last few years, we've made significant changes in how we reduce the friction. And I think you can see it in the results that I showed you earlier in this stock. And the last one is one of the most important things that I say and I'll keep saying that, that we do as AWS is carry the pager. There's a lot of open source projects out there, operationalizing them, running them at scale is not easy. It's not all for whatever reason. It may not have anything to do with the software itself. But our core competency is taking that and being really good at operating it and becoming experts at operating it. And then ideally taking that expertise and experience and operating that project, that software and contributing back upstream. Cause that makes it better for everybody. And I think you'll see us do a lot more of that going forward. We've been doing that for the last few years, you know, in the container space, we do it every day. And I'm excited about the possibilities. With that. Thank you very much. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the showcase. >> Okay. Welcome back. We have Deepak sing here. We just had the keynote closing keynote vice-president of compute services. Deepak. Great to a great keynote, great wisdom and insight from that session. A very notable highlights and cutting edge trends and product information. Thanks for sharing. >> No, anytime it's always good to be here. It's too bad that we still doing this virtually, but always good to talk to you, John. >> We'll get hopefully through this way pretty quickly, I want to jump right in. Cause we don't have a lot of time. I want to get some quick question. You've brought up a good things. Open source innovation. Okay. Going next level. You've seen the rise of super clouds and super apps developing at open source. You're seeing big companies contributing, you know, you mentioned Argo into it. You're seeing that dynamic where companies are forming around this. This is a rising tide. This is, this is actually real. It's not the old school of, okay, here's a project. And then someone manages support and commercialization of it. It's actually platform in cloud scale. This is next gen. >> Yeah. And actually I think it started a few years ago. We can talk about a company that, you know, you're very familiar with as part of this event, which is armory many years ago, Netflix spun off this project called Spinnaker. A Spinnaker is CISED you know, CSED system that was developed at Netflix for their own purposes, but they chose to open solicit. And since then, it's become very popular with customers who want to use it even on prem. And you have a company that spun up on it. I think what's making this world very unique is you have very large companies like Facebook that will build things for themselves like VITAS or Netflix with Spinnaker and open source them. And you can have a lot of discussion about why they chose to do so, etc. But increasingly that's becoming the default when Amazon or Netflix or Facebook or Mehta, I guess you call them these days, build something for themselves for their own needs. The first question we ask ourselves is, should it be opensource? And increasingly we are all saying yes. And here's what happens because of that. It gives an opportunity depending on how you open source it for innovation through commercial deployments, so that you get SaaS companies, you know, that are going to take that product and make it relevant and useful to a very broad number of customers. You build partnerships with cloud providers like AWS, because our customers love this open source project and they need help. And they may choose an AWS managed service, or they may end up working with this partner on a day-to-day basis. And we want to work with that partner because they're making our customers successful, which is one reason all of us are here. So you're having this set of innovation from large companies from, you know, whether they are just consumer companies like Metta infrastructure companies like us, or just random innovation that's happening in an open source project that which ends up in companies being spun up and that foster that innovative innovation and that flywheel that's happening right now. And I think you said that like, this is unique. I mean, you never saw this happen before from so many different directions. >> It really is a nice progression on the business model side as well. You mentioned Argo, which is a great organic thing that was Intuit developed. We just interviewed code fresh. They just presented here in the showcase as well. You seeing the formation around these projects develop now in the community at a different scale. I mean, look at code fresh. I mean, Intuit did it Argo and they're not just supporting it. They're building a platform. So you seeing the dynamics of tools and now emerging the platforms, you mentioned Lambda, okay. Which is proprietary for AWS and your talk powered by open source. So again, open source combined with cloud scale allows for new potential super applications or super clouds that are developing. This is a new phenomenon. This isn't just lift and shift and host on the cloud. This is actually a construction production developer workflow. >> Yeah. And you are seeing consumers, large companies, enterprises, startups, you know, it used to be that startups would be comfortable adopting some of these solutions, but now you see companies of all sizes doing so. And I said, it's not just software it's software, the services increasingly becoming the way these are given, delivered to customers. I actually think the innovation is just getting going, which is why we have this. We have so many partners here who are all in inventing and innovating on top of open source, whether it's developed by them or a broader community. >> Yeah. I liked, I liked the represent container. Do you guys have, did that drove that you've seen a lot of changes and again, with cloud scale and open source, you seeing the dynamics change, whether you're enabling that, and then you see kind of like real big change. So let's take snowflake, a big customer of AWS. They started out as a startup too, but they weren't a data warehouse. They were bringing data warehouse like functionality and then changing everything differently and making it consumable for the cloud. And hence they're huge. So that's a disruption into an incumbent leader or sector. Then you've got new capabilities emerging. What's your thoughts, Deepak? Can you share your vision on how you have the disruption to existing leaders, old guard, if you will, as you guys call them and then new capabilities as these new platforms emerge at a net new functionality, how do you see that emerging? >> Yeah. So I speak from my side of the world. I've lived in over the last few years, which has containers and serverless, right? There's a lot of, if you go to any enterprise and ask them, do you want to modernize the infrastructure? Do you want to take advantage of automated software delivery, continuous delivery infrastructure as code modern observability, all of them will say yes, but they also are still a large enterprise, which has these enterprise level requirements. I'm using the word enterprise a lot. And I usually it's a trigger word for me because so many customers have similar requirements, but I'm using it here as large company with a lot of existing software and existing practices. I think the innovation that's coming and I see a lot of companies doing that is saying, "Hey, we understand the problems you want to solve. We understand the world where you live in, which could be regulated." You want to use all these new modalities. How do we allow you to use all of them? Keep the advantages of switching to a Lambda or switching to, and a service running on far gate, but give you the same capabilities. And I think I'll bring up cystic here because we work so closely with them on Falco. As an example, I just talked about them in my keynote. They could have just said, "Oh no, we'll just support the SE2 and be done with it." They said, "No, we're going to make sure that serverless containers in particular are something that you're going to be really good at because our customers want to use them, but requires us to think differently. And then they ended up developing new things like Falco that are born in this new world, but understand the requirements of the old world. If you get what I'm saying. And I think that a real example. >> Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, first of all, they're smart. So that was pretty obvious for most people that know, sees that you can connect the dots on serverless, which is a great point, but not everyone can see that again, this is what's new and and systig was just found in his backyard. As I found out on my interview, a great, great founder, they would do a new thing. So it was a very easy to connect the dots there again, that's the trend. Well, I got to ask if they're doing that for serverless, you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of you mentioned graviton in your speech and what came out of re-invent this past year was all the innovation going on at the compute level with gravitron at many levels in the Silicon. How should companies and open source developers think about how to innovate with graviton? >> Yeah, I mean, you've seen examples from people blogging and tweeting about how fast their applications run and grab it on the price performance benefits that they get, whether it's on, you know, whether it's an observability or other places. something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute something that AWS is going to embrace across a compute portfolio. Obviously you can go find EC2 instances, the gravitron two instances and run on them and that'll be great. But we know that most of our customers, many of our customers are building new applications on serverless containers and serveless than even as containers increasingly with things like foggy, where they don't want to operate the underlying infrastructure. A big part of what we're doing is to make sure that graviton is available to you on every compute modality. You can run it on a C2 forever. You've been running, being able to use ECS and EKS and run and grab it on almost since launch. What do you want me to take it a step further? You elastic Beanstalk customers, elastic Beanstalk has been around for a decade, but you can now use it with graviton. people running ECS on for gate can now use graviton. Lambda customers can pick graviton as well. So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get So we're taking this price performance benefits that you get from graviton and basically putting it across the entire compute portfolio. What it means is every high level service that gets built on compute infrastructure. And you get the price performance benefits, you get the price performance benefits of the lower power consumption of arm processes. So I'm personally excited like crazy. And you know, this has graviton 2 graviton 3 is coming. >> That's incredible. It's an opportunity like serverless was it's pretty obvious. And I think hopefully everyone will jump on that final question as the time's ticking here. I want to get your thoughts quickly. If you look at what's happened with containers over the past say eight years since the original founding of the first Docker instance, if you will, to how that's evolved and then the introduction of Kubernetes and the cloud native wave we're seeing now, what is, how would you describe the relationship between the success Docker, seeing now with Kubernetes in the cloud native construct what's different and why is this combination so successful? >> Yeah. I often say that containers would have, let me rephrase that. what I say is that people would have adopted sort of the modern way of running applications, whether containers came around or not. But the fact that containers came around made that migration and that journey is so much more efficient for people. So right from, I still remember the first doc that Solomon gave Billy announced DACA and starting to use it on customers, starting to get interested all the way to the more sort of advanced orchestration that we have now for containers across the board. And there's so many examples of the way you can do that. Kubernetes being the most, most well-known one. Here's the thing that I think has changed. I think what Kubernetes or Docker, or the whole sort of modern way of building applications has done is it's taken people who would have taken years adopting these practices and by bringing it right to the fingertips and rebuilding it into the APIs. And in the case of Kubernetes building an entire sort of software world around it, the number of, I would say number of decisions people have to take has gone smaller in many ways. There's so many options, the number of decisions that become higher, but the com the speed at which they can get to a result and a production version of an application that works for them is way low. I have not seen anything like what I've seen in the last 6, 7, 8 years of how quickly the most you know, the most I would say is, you know, a company that you would think would never adopt modern technology has been able to go from, this is interesting to getting a production really quickly. And I think it's because the tooling makes it So, and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right and the fact that you see the adoption that you see right from the fact that you could do Docker run Docker, build Docker, you know, so easily back in the day, all the way to all the advanced orchestration you can do with container orchestrator is today. sort of taking all of that away as well. there's never been a better time to be a developer independent of whatever you're trying to build. And I think containers are a big central part of why that's happened. >> Like the recipe, the combination of cloud-scale, the timing of Kubernetes and the containerization concepts just explode as a beautiful thing. And it creates more opportunities and will challenges, which are opportunities that are net new, but it solves the automation piece that we're seeing this again, it's only makes things go faster. >> Yes. >> And that's the key trend. Deepak, thank you so much for coming on. We're seeing tons of open cloud innovations, thanks to the success of your team at AWS and being great participants in the community. We're seeing innovations from startups. You guys are helping enabling that. Of course, they want to live on their own and be successful and build their super clouds and super app. So thank you for spending the time with us. Appreciate. >> Yeah. Anytime. And thank you. And you know, this is a great event. So I look forward to people running software and building applications, using AWS services and all these wonderful partners that we have. >> Awesome, great stuff. Great startups, great next generation leaders emerging. When you see startups, when they get successful, they become the modern software applications platforms out there powering business and changing the world. This is the cube you're watching the AWS startup showcase. Season two episode one open cloud innovations on John Furrier your host, see you next time.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Yukon and Cloud. Native Con North America 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the cubes Ongoing coverage of Cuba con North America. Joe Fernandez is here. He's with Stephanie, Cheras and Joe's, the V, P and GM for core cloud platforms. That red hat and Stephanie is this s VP and GM of the Red Hat Enterprise. Lennox bu. Two great friends of the Cube. Awesome seeing you guys. How you doing? >>It's great to be here, Dave. Yeah, thanks >>for the opportunity. >>Hey, so we all talked, you know, recently, uh, answerable fest Seems like a while ago, but But we talked about what's new? Red hat really coming at it from an automation perspective. But I wonder if we could take a view from open shift and what's new from the standpoint of you really focus on helping customers, you know, change their operations and operationalize. And Stephanie, Maybe you could start, and then, you know, Joe, you could bring in some added color. >>No, that's great. And I think you know one of the things we try and do it. Red hat clearly building off of open source. We have been focused on this open hybrid cloud strategy for, you know, really years. Now the beauty of it is that hybrid cloud and open hybrid cloud continues to evolve right with bringing in things like speed and stability and scale and now adding in other footprints, like manage services as well as edge and pulling that all together across the whole red hat portfolio from the platforms, right? Certainly with Lennox and roll into open shift in the platform with open shift and then adding automation, which certainly you need for scale. But it's ah, it's continues to evolve as the as the definition of open hybrid cloud evolves. >>Great. So thank you, Stephanie jokes. You guys got hard news here that you could maybe talk about 46? >>Yeah. Eso eso open shift is our enterprise kubernetes platform. With this announcement, we announced the release of open ship 4.6 Eso eso We're doing releases every quarter tracking the upstream kubernetes release cycle. So this brings communities 1.19, which is, um but itself brings a number of new innovations, some specific things to call out. We have this new automated installer for open shift on bare metal, and that's definitely a trend that we're seeing is more customers not only looking at containers but looking at running containers directly on bare metal environments. Open shift provides an abstraction, you know, which combines Cuban. And he's, uh, on top of Lennox with RL. I really across all environments, from bare metal to virtualization platforms to the various public clouds and out to the edge. But we're seeing a lot of interest in bare metal. This is basically increasing the really three automation to install seamlessly and manage upgrades in those environments. We're also seeing a number of other enhancements open shifts service mesh, which is our SDO based solution for managing, uh, the interactions between micro services being able to manage traffic against those services. Being able to do tracing. We have a new release of that on open shift Ford out six on then, um, some work specific to the public cloud that we started extending into the government clouds. So we already supported AWS and Azure. With this release, we added support for the A W s government cloud as well. Azaz Acela's Microsoft Azure government on dso again This is really important to like our public sector customers who are looking to move to the public cloud leveraging open shift as an abstraction but wanted thio support it on the specialized clouds that they need to use with azure gonna meet us Cup. >>So, joke, we stay there for a minute. So so bare metal talking performance there because, you know, you know what? You really want to run fast, right? So that's the attractiveness there. And then the point about SDO in the open, open shift service measure that makes things simpler. Maybe talk a little bit about sort of business impact and what customers should expect to get out of >>these two things. So So let me take them one at a time, right? So so running on bare metal certainly performances a consideration. You know, I think a lot of fixed today are still running containers, and Cuban is on top of some form of virtualization. Either a platform like this fear or open stack, or maybe VMS in the in one of the public clouds. But, you know containers don't depend on a virtualization layer. Containers only depend on Lennox and Lennox runs great on bare metal. So as we see customers moving more towards performance and Leighton see sensitive workloads, they want to get that Barry mental performance on running open shift on bare metal and their containerized applications on that, uh, platform certainly gives them that advantage. Others just want to reduce the cost right. They want to reduce their VM sprawl, the infrastructure and operational cost of managing avert layer beneath their careers clusters. And that's another benefit. So we see a lot of uptake in open shift on bare metal on the service match side. This is really about You know how we see applications evolving, right? Uh, customers are moving more towards these distributed architectures, taking, you know, formally monolithic or enter applications and splitting them out into ah, lots of different services. The challenge there becomes. Then how do you manage all those connections? Right, Because something that was a single stack is now comprised of tens or hundreds of services on DSO. You wanna be able to manage traffic to those services, so if the service goes down, you can redirect that those requests thio to an alternative or fail over service. Also tracing. If you're looking at performance issues, you need to know where in your architecture, er you're having those degradations and so forth. And, you know, those are some of the challenges that people can sort of overcome or get help with by using service mash, which is powered by SDO. >>And then I'm sorry, Stephanie ever get to in a minute. But which is 11 follow up on that Joe is so the rial differentiation between what you bring in what I can just if I'm in a mono cloud, for instance is you're gonna you're gonna bring this across clouds. I'm gonna You're gonna bring it on, Prem And we're gonna talk about the edge in in a minute. Is that right? From a differentiation standpoint, >>Yeah, that That's one of the key >>differentiations. You know, Read has been talking about the hybrid cloud for a long time. We've we've been articulating are open hybrid cloud strategy, Andi, >>even if that's >>not a strategy that you may be thinking about, it is ultimately where folks end up right, because all of our enterprise customers still have applications running in the data center. But they're also all starting to move applications out to the public cloud. As they expand their usage of public cloud, you start seeing them adopted multi cloud strategies because they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. And then for certain classes of applications, they need to move those applications closer to the data. And and so you start to see EJ becoming part of that hybrid cloud picture on DSO. What we do is basically provide a consistency across all those environments, right? We want run great on Amazon, but also great on Azure on Google on bare metal in the data center during medal out at the edge on top of your favorite virtualization platform. And yeah, that that consistency to take a set of applications and run them the same way across all those environments. That is just one of the key benefits of going with red hat as your provider for open hybrid cloud solutions. >>All right, thank you. Stephanie would come back to you here, so I mean, we talk about rail a lot because your business unit that you manage, but we're starting to see red hats edge strategy unfolded. Kind of real is really the linchpin I wanna You could talk about how you're thinking about the edge and and particularly interested in how you're handling scale and why you feel like you're in a good position toe handle that massive scale on the requirements of the edge and versus hey, we need a new OS for the edge. >>Yeah, I think. And Joe did a great job of said and up it does come back to our view around this open hybrid cloud story has always been about consistency. It's about that language that you speak, no matter where you want to run your applications in between rela on on my side and Joe with open shift and and of course, you know we run the same Lennox underneath. So real core os is part of open shift that consistently see leads to a lot of flexibility, whether it's through a broad ecosystem or it's across footprints. And so now is we have been talking with customers about how they want to move their applications closer to data, you know, further out and away from their data center. So some of it is about distributing your data center, getting that compute closer to the data or closer to your customers. It drives, drives some different requirements right around. How you do updates, how you do over the air updates. And so we have been working in typical red hat fashion, right? We've been looking at what's being done in the upstream. So in the fedora upstream community, there is a lot of working that has been done in what's called the I. O. T Special Interest group. They have been really investigating what the requirements are for this use case and edge. So now we're really pleased in, um, in our most recent release of really aid relate 00.3. We have put in some key capabilities that we're seeing being driven by these edge use cases. So things like How do you do quick image generation? And that's important because, as you distribute, want that consistency created tailored image, be able to deploy that in a consistent way, allow that to address scale, meet security requirements that you may have also right updates become very important when you start to spread this out. So we put in things in order to allow remote device mirroring so that you can put code into production and then you can schedule it on those remote devices toe happen with the minimal disruption. Things like things like we all know now, right with all this virtual stuff, we often run into things like not ideal bandwidth and sometimes intermittent connectivity with all of those devices out there. So we put in, um, capabilities around, being able to use something called rpm Austria, Um, in order to be able to deliver efficient over the air updates. And then, of course, you got to do intelligent rollbacks for per chance that something goes wrong. How do you come back to a previous state? So it's all about being able to deploy at scale in a distributed way, be ready for that use case and have some predictability and consistency. And again, that's what we build our platforms for. It's all about predictability and consistency, and that gives you flexibility to add your innovation on top. >>I'm glad you mentioned intelligent rollbacks I learned a long time ago. You always ask the question. What happens when something goes wrong? You learn a lot from the answer to that, but You know, we talk a lot about cloud native. Sounds like you're adapting well to become edge native. >>Yeah. I mean, I mean, we're finding whether it's inthe e verticals, right in the very specific use cases or whether it's in sort of an enterprise edge use case. Having consistency brings a ton of flexibility. It was funny, one of our talking with a customer not too long ago. And they said, you know, agility is the new version of efficiency. So it's that having that sort of language be spoken everywhere from your core data center all the way out to the edge that allows you a lot of flexibility going forward. >>So what if you could talk? I mentioned just mentioned Cloud Native. I mean, I think people sometimes just underestimate the effort. It takes tow, make all this stuff run in all the different clouds the engineering efforts required. And I'm wondering what kind of engineering you do with if any with the cloud providers and and, of course, the balance of the ecosystem. But But maybe you could describe that a little bit. >>Yeah, so? So Red Hat works closely with all the major cloud providers you know, whether that's Amazon, Azure, Google or IBM Cloud. Obviously, Andi, we're you know, we're very keen on sort of making sure that we're providing the best environment to run enterprise applications across all those environments, whether you're running it directly just with Lennox on Ralph or whether you're running it in a containerized environment with Open Chef, which which includes route eso eso, our partnership includes work we do upstream, for example. You know, Red Hat help. Google launched the Cuban community, and I've been, you know, with Google. You know, we've been the top two contributors driving that product that project since inception, um, but then also extends into sort of our hosted services. So we run a jointly developed and jointly managed service called the Azure Red Hat Open Shift Service. Together with Microsoft were our joint customers can get access to open shift in an azure environment as a native azure service, meaning it's, you know, it's fully integrated, just like any other. As your service you can tied into as you're building and so forth. It's sold by by Azure Microsoft's sales reps. Um, but you know, we get the benefit of working together with our Microsoft counterparts and developing that service in managing that service and then in supporting our joint customers. We over the summer announced sort of a similar partnership with Amazon and we'll be launching are already doing pilots on the Amazon Red Hat Open ship service, which is which is, you know, the same concept now applied to the AWS cloud. So that will be coming out g a later this year, right? But again, whether it's working upstream or whether it's, you know, partnering on managed services. I know Stephanie team also do a lot of work with Microsoft, for example, on sequel server on Lenox dot net on Lenox. Whoever thought be running that applications on Linux. But that's, you know, a couple of years old now, a few years old, So eso again. It's been a great partnership, not just with Microsoft, but with all the cloud providers. >>So I think you just shared a little little He showed a little leg there, Joe, what's what's coming g A. Later this year. I want to circle back to >>that. Yeah, eso we way announced a preview earlier this year of of the Amazon Red Hat Open ships service. It's not generally available yet. We're you know, we're taking customers. We want toe, sort of be early access, get access to pilots and then that'll be generally available later this year. Although Red Hat does manage our own service Open ship dedicated that's available on AWS today. But that's a service that's, you know, solely, uh, operated by Red Hat. This new service will be jointly operated by Red Hat and Amazon together Idea. That would be sort of a service that we are delivering together as partners >>as a managed service and and okay, so that's in beta now. I presume if it's gonna be g a little, it's >>like, Yeah, that's yeah, >>that's probably running on bare metal. I would imagine that >>one is running >>on E. C. Two. That's running an A W C C T V exactly, and >>run again. You know, all of our all of >>our I mean, we you know, that open shift does offer bare metal cloud, and we do you know, we do have customers who can take the open shift software and deploy it there right now are managed. Offering is running on top of the C two and on top of Azure VM. But again, this is this is appealing to customers who, you know, like what we bring in terms of an enterprise kubernetes platform, but don't wanna, you know, operated themselves, right? So it's a fully managed service. You just come and build and deploy your APS, and then we manage all of the infrastructure and all the underlying platform for you >>that's going to explode. My prediction. Um, let's take an example of heart example of security. And I'm interested in how you guys ensure a consistent, you know, security experience across all these locations on Prem Cloud. Multiple clouds, the edge. Maybe you could talk about that. And Stephanie, I'm sure you have a perspective on this is Well, from the standpoint of of Ralph. So who wants to start? >>Yeah, Maybe I could start from the bottom and then I'll pass it over to Joe to talk a bit. I think one of these aspects about security it's clearly top of mind of all customers. Um, it does start with the very bottom and base selection in your OS. We continue to drive SC Lennox capabilities into rural to provide that foundational layer. And then as we run real core OS and open shift, we bring over that s C Lennox capability as well. Um, but, you know, there's a whole lot of ways to tackle this we've done. We've done a lot around our policies around, um see ve updates, etcetera around rail to make sure that we are continuing to provide on DCA mitt too. Mitigating all critical and importance, providing better transparency toe how we assess those CVS. So security is certainly top of mind for us. And then as we move forward, right there's also and joke and talk about the security work we do is also capabilities to do that in container ization. But you know, we we work. We work all the way from the base to doing things like these images in these easy to build images, which are tailored so you can make them smaller, less surface area for security. Security is one of those things. That's a lifestyle, right? You gotta look at it from all the way the base in the operating system, with things like sc Lennox toe how you build your images, which now we've added new capabilities. There And then, of course, in containers. There's, um there's a whole focus in the open shift area around container container security, >>Joe. Anything you want to add to that? >>Yeah, sure. I >>mean, I think, you know, obviously, Lennox is the foundation for, you know, for all public clouds. It's it's driving enterprise applications in the data center, part of keeping those applications. Security is keeping them up to date And, you know, through, you know, through real, we provide, you know, securing up to date foundation as a Stephanie mentioned as you move into open shift, you're also been able to take advantage of, uh, Thio to take advantage of essentially mutability. Right? So now the application that you're deploying isn't immutable unit that you build once as a container image, and then you deploy that out all your various environments. When you have to do an update, you don't go and update all those environments. You build a new image that includes those updates, and then you deploy those images out rolling fashion and, as you mentioned that you could go back if there's issues. So the idea, the notion of immutable application deployments has a lot to do with security, and it's enabled by containers. And then, obviously you have cured Panetti's and, you know, and all the rest of our capabilities as part of open Shift managing that for you. We've extended that concept to the entire platform. So Stephanie mentioned, real core West Open shift has always run on real. What we have done in open shift for is we've taken an immutable version of Ralph. So it's the same red hat enterprise Lennox that we've had for years. But now, in this latest version relate, we have a new way to package and deploy it as a relic or OS image, and then that becomes part of the platform. So when customers want toe in addition to keeping their applications up to date, they need to keep their platform up to dates. Need to keep, you know, up with the latest kubernetes patches up with the latest Lennox packages. What we're doing is delivering that as one platform, so when you get updates for open shift, they could include updates for kubernetes. They could include updates for Lennox itself as well as all the integrated services and again, all of this is just you know this is how you keep your applications secure. Is making sure your you know, taking care of that hygiene of, you know, managing your vulnerabilities, keeping everything patched in up to date and ultimately ensuring security for your application and users. >>I know I'm going a little bit over, but I have I have one question that I wanna ask you guys and a broad question about maybe a trends you see in the business. I mean, you look at what we talk a lot about cloud native, and you look at kubernetes and the interest in kubernetes off the charts. It's an area that has a lot of spending momentum. People are putting resource is behind it. But you know, really, to build these sort of modern applications, it's considered state of the art on. Do you see a lot of people trying to really bring that modern approach toe any cloud we've been talking about? EJ. You wanna bring it also on Prem And people generally associate this notion of cloud native with this kind of elite developers, right? But you're bringing it to the masses and there's 20 million plus software developers out there, and most you know, with all due respect that you know they may not be the the the elites of the elite. So how are you seeing this evolve in terms of re Skilling people to be able, handle and take advantage of all this? You know, cool new stuff that's coming out. >>Yeah, I can start, you know, open shift. Our focus from the beginning has been bringing kubernetes to the enterprise. So we think of open shift as the dominant enterprise kubernetes platform enterprises come in all shapes and sizes and and skill sets. As you mentioned, they have unique requirements in terms of how they need toe run stuff in their data center and then also bring that to production, whether it's in the data center across the public clouds eso So part of it is, you know, making sure that the technology meets the requirements and then part of it is working. The people process and and culture thio make them help them understand what it means to sort of take advantage of container ization and cloud native platforms and communities. Of course, this is nothing new to red hat, right? This is what we did 20 years ago when we first brought Lennox to the Enterprise with well, right on. In essence, Carozza is basically distributed. Lennox right Kubernetes builds on Lennox and brings it out to your cluster to your distributed systems on across the hybrid cloud. So So nothing new for Red Hat. But a lot of the same challenges apply to this new cloud native world. >>Awesome. Stephanie, we'll give you the last word, >>all right? And I think just a touch on what Joe talked about it. And Joe and I worked really closely on this, right? The ability to run containers right is someone launches down this because it is magical. What could be done with deploying applications? Using a container technology, we built the capabilities and the tools directly into rural in order to be able to build and deploy, leveraging things like pod man directly into rural. And that's exactly so, folks. Everyone who has a real subscription today can start on their container journey, start to build and deploy that, and then we work to help those skills then be transferrable as you movinto open shift in kubernetes and orchestration. So, you know, we work very closely to make sure that the skills building can be done directly on rail and then transfer into open shift. Because, as Joe said, at the end of the day, it's just a different way to deploy. Lennox, >>You guys are doing some good work. Keep it up. And thanks so much for coming back in. The Cube is great to talk to you today. >>Good to see you, Dave. >>Yes, Thank you. >>All right. Thank you for watching everybody. The cubes coverage of Cuba con en a continues right after this.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AnsibleFest 2020. I'm your host with theCUBE John Furrier. And we've got two great guests. A CUBE alumni, Robyn Bergeron, senior manager, Ansible community team. Welcome back, she's with Ansible and Red Hat. Good to see you. And Matt Jones, chief architect for the Ansible Automation Platform. Again, both with Red Hat, Ansible was acquired by Red Hat. Robyn used to work for Red Hat, then went to Ansible. Ansible got bought by Red Hat. Robyn, great to see you, Matt, great to see you. >> Yep, thanks for having me back again. It's good to see you. >> We're not in person. It's the virtual event. Thanks for coming on remotely to our CUBE virtual, really appreciate it. I want to talk about the, and I brought that Red Hat kind of journey Robyn. We talked about it last year, but it really is an important point. The roots of Ansible and kind of where it's come from and what it's turned into and where it is today, is an interesting journey because the mission is still the same. I would like to get your perspectives because you know, Red Hat was acquired by IBM, Ansible's under Red Hat, all part of one big happy family. A lot's going on around the platform, Matt, you're the chief architect, Robyn you're on the community team. Collections, collections, collections, is the message, content, content, content, community, a lot going on. So take a minute, both of you explain the Ansible roots, where it is today, and the mission. >> Right, so beginning of Ansible was really, there was a small team of folks and they'd actually been through an iteration before that didn't use SSH called Funk, but you know, it was, let's make a piece of software that is open source that allows people to automate other things. And we knew at the time that, you know, based on a piece of research that we had seen out of Harvard that having a piece of software be architected in a modular fashion wasn't just great for the software, but it was also great for developing pathways and connections for the community to actually contribute stuff. If you have a car, this is always my analogy. If you have a car, you don't have to know how the engine works in order to swap out the windshield wipers or embed new windshield wipers, things like that. The nice thing about modular architectures is that it doesn't just mean that things can plug in. It means you can actually separate them into different spots to enable them to be plugged in. And that's sort of where we are today with collections, right? We've always had this sense of modules, but everything except for a couple of points in time, all of the modules, the ways that you connect Ansible to the vast array of technologies that you can use it with. All of those have always been in the full Ansible repository. Now we've separated out most of, you know, nearly everything that is not absolutely essential to having in a, you know, a very minimal Ansible installation, broken them out into separate repositories, that are usually grouped by function, right? So there's probably like a VMware something and a cloud something, and a IBM, z/OS something, things like that, right? Each in their own individual groups. So now, not only can contributors find what they want to contribute to in much smaller spots that are not a sea of 5,000 plus folks doing work. But now you can also choose to use your Ansible collections, update them, run them independently of just the singular release of Ansible, where you got everything, all the batteries included in one spot. >> Matt, this brings up the point about she's bringing in more advanced functionality, she's talking about collections. This has been kind of the Ansible formula from the beginning in its startup days, ease of use, easy, fast automation. Talk about the, you know, back in 2013 it was a startup. Now it's part of Red Hat. The game is still the same. Can you just share kind of what's the current guiding principles around Ansible this year? Because lots going on, like I said, faster, bigger, a lot going on, share your perspective. You've been there. >> Yeah, you know, what we're working on now is we're taking this great tool that has changed the way that automation works for a lot of people and we want to make it faster and bigger and better. We want it to scale better. We want it to automate more and be easier to automate, automate all the things that people want to do. And so we're really focusing on that scalability and flexibility. Robyn talked about content and collections, right? And what we want to enable is people to bring the content collections, the collections, the roles, the models, and use them in the way that they feel works best for them, leaving aside some of the things that they maybe aren't quite as interested in and put it together in a way that scales for them and scales for a global automation, automation everywhere. >> Yeah, I want to dig into the collections later, Robyn, for sure. And Matt, so let's, we'll put that on pause for a minute. I want to get into the event, the virtual event. Obviously we're not face to face, this year's virtual. You guys are both keynoting. Matt, we'll start with you. If you can each give 60 seconds, kind of a rundown of your keynote talk, give us the quick summary this year on the keynotes, Matt, we'll start with you. >> Yeah. That's, 60 seconds is- >> If you need a minute and a half, we'll give you 90 seconds, Robyn, that's going to be tough. Matt, we'll start with you. >> I'll try. So this year, and I mentioned the focus on scalability and flexibility, we on the product and on the platform, on the Ansible Automation Platform, the goal here is to bring content and flexibility of that content into the platform for you. We focused a lot on how you execute, how you run automation, how you manage your automation, and so bringing that content management automation into the system for you. It's really important to us. But what we're also noticing is that we, people are managing automation at a much larger scale. So we are updating the Ansible Tower, Ansible AWX, the automation platform, we're updating it to be more flexible in how it runs content, and where it can run content. We're making it so that execution of automation doesn't just have to happen in your data center, in one data center, we recognize that automation occurs globally, and we want to expand that automation execution capability to be able to run globally and all report back into your central business. We're also expanding over the next six months, a year, how well Ansible integrates with OpenShift and Kubernetes. This is a huge focus for us. We want that experience for automation to feel the same, whether you're automating at the edge, in devices and virtual machines and data centers, as well as clusters and Kubernetes clusters anywhere in the world. >> That's awesome. That's why I brought that up earlier. I wanted to get that out there because it's worth calling out that the Ansible mission from the beginning was similar scope, easy to do and simplify, but now it's larger scale. Again, it's everywhere, harder to do, hence complexity being extracted away. So thank you for sharing. We'll dig into that in a second. Okay, Robyn, 60 seconds or more, if you need it, your keynote this year at AnsibleFest, give us the quick rundown. >> All right. Well, I think we probably know at this point, one of the main themes this year is called automate to connect and, you know, the purpose of the community keynote is really to highlight the achievements of the community. So, you know, we are talking about, well, we are talking about collections, you know, going through some of the very broad highlights of that, and also how that has contributed, or, not contributed, how that is included as part of the recent release of Ansible 2.10, which was really the first release where we've got it very easy for people to actually start using collections and getting familiar with what that brings to them. A good portion of the keynote is also just about innovation, right? Like how we do things in open source and why we do things in certain ways in open source to accelerate us. And how that compares with the Red Hat, traditional product model, which is, we kind of, we do a lot of innovation upstream. We move quickly so that if something is maybe not the right idea, we can move on. And then in our products, that's sort of the thing that we give to our customers that is tried, tested and true. All of that kind of jazz. We also talk about, or I guess I also talk about the, all of our initiatives that we're doing around diversity and inclusiveness, including some of the code changes that we've made for better, more inclusive language in our projects and our downstream products, our diversity and inclusion working group that we have in the community land, which is, you know, just looking to embrace more and more people. It's a lot about connectivity, right? To one of Matt's points about all the things that we're trying to achieve and how it's similar to the original principles, the third one was, it's always, we need to have it to be easy to contribute to. It doesn't necessarily just mean in our community, right? Like we see in all of these workplaces, which is one of the reasons why we brought in Automation Hub, that folks inside large organizations, companies, government, whatever it is, are using Ansible and there's more and more, and, you know, there's one person, they tell their friend, they tell another friend, and next thing you know, it's the whole department. And then you find people in other departments and then you've got a ton of people doing stuff. And we all know that you can do a bunch of stuff by yourself, but you can accomplish a lot more together. And so, making it easy to contribute inside your organization is not much different than being able to contribute inside the community. So this is just a further recognition, I think, of what we see as just a natural extension of open source. >> I think the community angle is super important 'cause you have the community in terms of people contributing, but you also have multiple vendors now, multiple clouds, multiple integrations, the stakeholders of collaboration have increased. It was just like, "Oh, here's the upstream and et cetera, we're done, and have meetings, do all that stuff." And Matt, that brings me to my next question. Can you talk about some of the recent releases that have changed the content experience for the Ansible users in the upstream and within the automation platform? >> Well, so last year we released collections, and we've really been moving towards that over the 2.9, 2.10 timeframe. And now I think you're starting to see sort of the realization of that, right? This year we've released Automation Hub on cloud.redhat.com so that we can concentrate that vendor and partner content that Red Hat supports and certifies. In AnsibleFest you'll hear us talk about Private Automation Hub. This is bringing that content experience to the customer, to the user of this content, sort of helping you curate and manage that content yourself, like Robyn said, like we want to build communities around the content that you've developed. That's the whole reason that we've done this with collections is we don't want to bind it to Ansible core releases. We don't want to block content releases, all of this great functionality that the community is building. This is what collections mean. You should be free to use the collections that you want when you want it, regardless of when Ansible core itself has released. >> Can you just take a minute real quick and just explain what is collections, for folks out there who are rich? 'Cause that's the big theme here, collections, collections, collections. That's what I'm hearing resonate throughout the virtual hallways, if you will. Twitter and beyond. >> That's a good question. Like what is a collection itself? So we've talked a lot in the past about reusable content for Ansible. We talk a lot about roles and modules and we sort of put those off to the side a little bit and say, "These are your reusable components." You can put 'em anywhere you want. You can put 'em in source control, distribute them through email, it doesn't matter. And then your playbooks, that's what you write. And that's your sort of blessed content. Collections are really about taking the modules and roles and plugins, the things that make automation possible, and bundling those up together in groups of content, groups of modules and roles, or standing by themselves so that you can decide how that's distributed and how you consume that, right? Like you might have the Azure, VMware or Red Hat satellite collection that you're using. And you're happy with that. But you want a new version of Ansible. You're not bound to using one and the same. You can stick with the content that matters to you, the roles, the modules, the plugins that work for you. And you decide when to update those and you know, what the actual modules and plugins you're using are. >> So I got to ask the content question, you know, I'm a content producer. We do videos as content, blog posts content. When you talk about content, it's code, clarify that role for us because you got, you're enabling developers with content and helping them find experts. This is a concept. Robyn, talk about this. And Matt, you can weigh in, too, define what does content mean? It means different things. (indistinct) again, content could be. >> It is one of those words, it's right up there with developers, you know, so many different things that that can mean, especially- >> Explain content and the importance of the semantics of that. Explain it, it's important that people understand the semantics of the word "content" with respect to what's going on with Ansible. >> Yeah, and Matt and I actually had a conversation about the murkiness of this word, I believe that was yesterday. So what I think about our content, you know, and I try to put myself in the mind, my first job was a CIS admin. So I try to put myself in the mind of someone who might be using this content that I'm about to attempt to explain. Like Matt just explained, we've always had these modules, which were included in Ansible. People have pieces of code that show very basic things, right? If I get one of the AWS modules, it would, I am able to do things like "I would like to create a new user." So you might make a role that actually describes the steps in Ansible, that you would have to create a new user that is able to access AWS services at your company. There may be a number of administrators who want to use that piece of stuff, that piece of code over and over and over again, because hopefully most companies are getting bigger and not smaller, right? They want to have more people accessing all sorts of pieces of technology. So making some of these chunks accessible to lots of folks is really important, right? Because what good is automation, if, sure we've taken care of half of it, but if you still have to come up with your own bits of code from scratch every time you want to invoke it, you're still not really leveraging the full power of collaboration. So when we talk about content, to me, it really is things that are constantly reusable, that are accessible, that you tie together with modules that you're getting from collections. And I think it's that bundle, you can keep those pits of reusable content in the collections or keep them separate. But, you know, it's stuff that is baked for you, or that maybe somebody inside your organization bakes, but they only have to bake it once. They don't have to bake it in 25 silos over and over and over again. >> Matt, the reason why we're talking about this is interesting, 'cause you know what this points out, in my opinion, it's my opinion. This points out that we're talking about content as a word means that you guys were on the cutting edge of new paradigms, which is content, it's essentially code, but it's addressable, community it's being shared. Someone wrote the code and it's a whole 'nother level of thinking. This is kind of a platform automation. I get it. So give us your thoughts because this is a critical component because the origination of the content, the code, I mean, I love it. Content is, I've always said content, our content should be code. It's all data, but this is interesting. This is the cutting edge concept. Could you explain what it means from your perspective? >> This is about building communities around that content, right? Like it's that sharing that didn't exist before, like Robyn mentioned, like, you know, you shouldn't have to build the same thing a dozen times or 100 times, you should be able to leverage the capabilities of experts and people who understand that section of automation the best, like I might be an expert in one field or Robyn's an expert in another field, we're automating in the same space. We should be able to bring our own expertise and resources together. And so this is what that content is. Like, I'm an expert in one, you're an expert in another, let's bring them together as part of our automation community and share them so that we can use them iterate on them and build on them and just constantly make them better. >> And the concepts are consumption, there's consumption of the content. There's the collaboration of the content. There's the sharing, all this, and there's reputation, there's expertise. I mean, it's a multi sided marketplace here, isn't it? >> Yeah. I read a article, I don't know, a year or two ago that said, we've always evolved in the technology industry around, if you have access to this, first it was the mainframes. Then it was, whatever, personal computers, the cloud, now it's containers, all of this, but, once everybody buys that mainframe or once everybody levels up their skills to whatever the next thing is that you can just buy, there's not much left that actually can help you to differentiate from your competitors, other than your ability to actually leverage all of those tools. And if you can actually have better collaboration, I think than other folks, then that is one of those points that actually will get you ahead in your digital transformation curve. >> I've been harping on this for a while. I think that cloud native finally has gone, when I say "mainstream" I mean like on everyone's mind, you look at the container uptake, you're looking at containers. We had IDC on, five to 10% of the enterprises are containerizing. That's huge growth opportunity. The IPO of, say, Snowflake's on Amazon. I mean, how does this happen? That's a company that's went public, It's the most valuable IPO in the history of IPOs on Wall Street. And it's built on Amazon, it has its own cloud. So it's like, I mean, this points to the new value that's being created on top of these new cloud native architectures. So I really think you guys are onto something big here. And I think you're starting to see this, new notions of how things are being rethought and reimagined. So let's keep it, while I've got you guys here real quick, Ansible 2.1 community release. Tell us more about the updates there. >> Oh, 2.10, because, yeah. Oh, that's fine. I know I too have had, I'm like, "Why do we do that?" But it's semantic versioning. So I am more accustomed to this now, it's a slightly different world from when I worked on Fedora. You know, I think the big highlight there is really collections. I mean, it's collections, collections, collections. That is all the work that we did, it's under the hood, over the hood, and really, how we went from being all in one repo to breaking things out. It's a big line for, we're advancing both the tool and also advancing the community's ability to actually collaborate together. And, you know, as folks start to actually use it, it's a big change for them potentially in how they can actually work together in their organizations using Ansible. One of the big things we did focus on was ensuring that their ease of use, that their experience did not change. So if they have existing Ansible stuff that they're running, playbooks, mod roles, et cetera, they should be able to use 2.10 and not see any discernible change. That's all the under the hood. That was a lot of surgery, wasn't it, Matt? Serious amounts of work. >> So Matt, 2.10, does that impact the release piece of it for the developers and the customers out there? What does it change? >> It's a good point. Like at least for the longer term, this means that we can focus on the Ansible core experience. And this is the part that we didn't touch on much before now with the collections pieces that now when we're fixing bugs, when we're iterating and making Ansible as an engine of automation better, we can do that without negatively impacting the automation that people actually use. We could focus on the core experience of actually automating itself. >> Execution environments, let's talk about that. What are they, are they being used in the community today? What do you guys react to that? >> We're actually, we're sort of in the middle of building this right now. Like one of the things that we've struggled with is when you, you need to automate, you need this content that we've talked about before. But beyond that, you have the system that sits underneath the version of Linux, the kernel that you're using, going even further, you need Python dependencies, you need library dependencies. These are hard and complicated things, like in the Ansible Tower space, we have virtual environments, which lets you install those things right alongside the Ansible Tower control plane. This can cause a lot of problems. So execution environments, they take those dependencies, the unit that is the environment that you need to run your automation in, and we're going to containerize it. You were just talking about this from the containerization perspective, right? We're going to build more easily isolated, easy to use distinct units of environments that will let you run your automation. This is great. This lets you, the person who's building the content for your organization, he can develop it and test it and send it through the CI process all the way up through production, it's the exact same environment. You could feel confident that the automation that you're running against the libraries and the models, the version of Ansible that you're using, is the same when you're developing the content as when you're running it in production for your business, for your users, for your customers. >> And that's the Nirvana. This is really where you talk about pushing it to new limits. Real quick, just to kind of end it out here for Ansible 2020, AnsibleFest 2020. Obviously we're now virtual, people aren't there in person, which is really an intimate event. Last year was awesome. Had theCUBE set right there, great event, people were intimate. What's going on for what you guys have for people that obviously we got the videos and got the media content. What's the main theme, Robyn and Matt, and what's going on for resources that might be available for folks who want to learn more, what's going on in the community, can you just take a minute each to talk about some of the exciting things that are going on at the event that they should pay attention to, and obviously, it's asynchronous so they can go anywhere anytime they want, it's the internet. Where can they go to hang out? Is there a hang space? Just give the quick two second commercial, Robyn, we'll start with you. >> All right. Well of course you can catch the keynotes early in the morning. I look forward to everybody's super exciting, highly polite comments. 'Cause I hear there's a couple people coming to this event, at least a few. I know within the event platform itself, there are chat rooms for each track. I myself will be probably hanging out in some of the diversity and inclusion spaces, honestly, and I, this is part of my keynote. You know, one of the great things about AnsibleFest is for me, and I was at the original AnsibleFest that had like 20 people in Boston in 2013. And it happened directly across the street from Red Hat Summit, which is why I was able to just ditch my job and go across the street to my future job, so to speak. We were... Well, I just lost my whole train of thought and ruined everything. Jeez. >> We got that you're going to be in the chat rooms for the diversity and community piece, off platform, is there a Slack? Is there like a site? Anything else? 'Cause you know, when the event's over, they're going to come back and consume on demand, but also the community, is there a Discord? I mean, all kinds of stuff's going on, popping up with these virtual spaces. >> One thing I should highlight is we do have the Ansible Contributor Summit that goes on the day before AnsibleFest and the day after AnsibleFest. Now, normally this is a pretty intimate event with the large outreach that we've gotten with this Fest, which is much bigger than the original one, much, much, much bigger, we've, and signing up for the contributor summit is part of the registration process for AnsibleFest. So we've actually geared our first day of that event to be towards new or aspiring contributors rather than the traditional format that we've had, which is where we have a lot of engineers, and can you remember sit down physically or in a virtual room and really talk about all of the things going on under the hood, which is, you know, can be intimidating for new people. Like "I just wanted to learn about how to contribute, not how to do surgery." So the first day is really geared towards making everything accessible to new people because turns out there's a lot of new people who are very excited about Ansible and we want to make sure that we're giving them the content that they need. >> Think about architects. I mean, SREs are jumping in, Matt, you talked about large scale. You're the chief architect, new blood's coming in. But give us an update on your perspective, what people should pay attention to at the event, after the event, communities they could be involved in, certainly people want to tap into you are an expert and find out what's going on. What's your comment? >> Yeah, you know, we have a whole new session track this year on architects, specifically for SREs and automation architects. We really want to highlight that. We want to give that sort of empowerment to the personas of people who, you know, maybe you're not a developer, maybe you're not, operations or a VP of your company. You're looking at the architecture of automation, how you can make our automation better for you and your organization. Everybody's suffered a lot and struggled with the COVID-19. We're no different, right? We want to show how automation can empower you, empower your organization and your company, just like we've struggled also. And we're excited about the things that we want to deliver in the next six months to a year. We want you to hear about those. We want you to hear about content and collections. We want you to hear about scalability, execution environments, we're really excited about what we're doing. You know, use the tools that we've provided in the AnsibleFest event experience to communicate with us, to talk to us. You can always find us on IRC via email, GitHub. We want people to continue to engage with us, our community, our open source community, to engage with us in the same ways that they have. And now we just want to share the things that we're working on, so that we can all collaborate on it and automate better. >> I'm really glad you said that. I mean, again, people are impacted by COVID-19. I got, it sounds like all channels are open. I got to say of all the communities that are having to work from home and are impacted by digital, developers probably are less impacted. They got more time to gain, they don't have to travel, they could hang out, they're used to some of these tools. So I think I guess the strategy is turn on all the channels and engage in new ways. And that seems to be the message, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Alright, Robyn Bergeron, great to see you again, Matt Jones, great to chat with you, chief architect for Ansible Automation Platform and of course, Robyn senior manager for the community team. Thanks so much for joining me today. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. It's theCUBE's coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here in the studio in Palo Alto. We're virtual. This is theCUBE virtual with AnsibleFest virtual. We're not face to face. Thank you for watching. (calm music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering HP Discover Virtual experience brought to you by HP. >>Hi. Welcome back. I'm Stew Minimum, and this is the cube covers of HP Discover 2020. The virtual experience gonna be digging into Green Lake and help me with that. Happy to welcome to the program. First time guest Arwa Fedora. She is the vice president of worldwide sales for Green Lake with Hewlett Packard Enterprise are a thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks for having me. All >>right. So as I teed up, you're relatively new in the role. So if you could just >>give us a little bit >>about your background, what brought you to HP And what your focus is there? >>Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me Weeks seven. So definitely new in the role, um, came from sort >>of ah, public cloud. Ah, >>cloud native ah, set of experiences through Microsoft. And previous to that it was Amarin where we focused on a lot of mobile application development. Ultimately, what brought me toe hp? To be honest is the fact that while cloud has brought a ton of innovation to, you know, many companies, many industries, many applications. I think I also see the opportunity that it's not just about public cloud, but it's about bringing cloud experience everywhere. And so, looking at the agility, the innovation, the speed, um, you know, some of the cost savings that the cloud has brought companies. Um, I believe that from a green Lake perspective, we now have an opportunity to modernize I t infrastructure and bring it to our customers in a way that they've never seen before. And so ultimately that that was what brought me >>to HP. >>All right, well, what excited me about having the discussion with you is you talked about some of the application modernization cloud native pieces that you've got history on, you know, my background infrastructure, but has an infrastructure person. We know the role of infrastructure really is to support those application. A term I've used for a number of years now is you want to modernize the platform and then you and modernize the applications on top of you know, what are you hearing from customers? You know, when I talk to developers, often it is, you know, hybrid model of how they're building things that is no longer a monolithic things are changing and moving everywhere. Data, of course, has huge import. Help us understand that role of the application and data when it comes to Green Lake. >>Yeah, and I think one of the great point that you know, whether it's research or our customers. What we ultimately know is 70% of absent data remain on premises today, right? Whether that's the data center, it's in co location or at the edge. Right? And that's where a good business reason that they have to remain in those data centers, right? We have things like, you know, late and see that we have to deal with. We have governance and security. We have data gravity. We have application dependencies, right? And so, being able to think >>about well, how do you solve that >>problem for the remaining 70% of applications? So if they can't move into >>the cloud well, how >>do we bring the cloud to them? Right. And that's exactly where Green Lake then, which is let's create that cloud like experience from everything, for you know, the obvious things that pay as you go the, um, sort of the self service be managed for you right, bringing that in to the customers, you know, Data center again. Coehlo The edge, I think, becomes a really powerful value prop and again, from my experience, right. Not every application is going to be a cloud native application that is being built newly for cloud only capabilities on. And there's still a lot of great applications that can still be built on Prem with cloud like experiences that are brought to you by Green Lake. >>Alright, so are you have the, you know, the sales title. And when I think about HP, HBs had a number of offering customers along that journey towards that cloud model that you're talking about. Ah, lot of them. You know, I think back, you know, go back Seven years ago, it was very much, you know, here is our stack and we have hybrid models and we're working with service providers. Green Lake is very much managed service, So help us understand a little bit, you know, from from the go to market standpoint, the sales standpoint, that mind shift of going from, you know, here's gear or here's the stack we're doing to really It is a managed services offering. So I would think it's it's a different It's if you will. It's a mindset. It's different, necessarily who you might be selling it >>absolutely. And I think if I had to think about what we're announcing at Discover right and how we're evolving Green Lake, it really starts to focus on launching new cloud services like containers, virtual machines, storage, compute right, sort of the core cloud offerings. But then also adding things like machine learning ops, you know, data protection for cloud and on Prem in networking services, right? And from a Green Lake perspective, I think if I had to think about the go to market, it's yes, managed services. But what does that mean, Right? That means new self service cloud experiences the Agree Lake Central, which has very detailed on sort of consumption and billing data to allow you to have that transparency. It also gives you self service capable abilities, right so that you can, you know, spin, spin up virtual machines or configure the services that you need or that you've purchased from us. Um and then also having the ability now to have new work load optimized, sort of T shirt size building blocks, right? So, being ableto very quick really find out from our customers, What is it that they need having sort of small, medium large capabilities again, thinking about those workloads that they're trying to support And then in under 14 days, being able to deliver the capability to their doors and have that spun up and ready to go? >>Yeah. One of the advantages, of course, is, you know, rather than thinking about okay, I've got all of these products. It's now more like a service catalog. I have a lot of different ways. Ah, and you've got things that like Oh, wait, you know, can that running there? You talked about the ML and the analytics. Of course, he's done a few acquisitions in this base to help enhance that light like map Are I know we've been talking a bit about, you know, Blue Data and, like, I'm curious from, you know, the touch points that you're having in customer. Is it shifting from you know, it's not necessarily, I think the person that buys the server, you know, cloud often was the line of business driving from the application down. So how does that alignment between the field and the customer shifting. And how do you expect Green Lake to kind of move that along even more? >>Yeah, that's right. It becomes a business sort of driven conversation, right? So what are the outcomes that our customers are driving for from a business transformation perspective? So if you think about what they're trying to do is they don't want to have to worry about delivering their own I t, which often is slow on, maybe contains supply chain risks. And then, of course, there's sort of the over provisioning risks that come with that as well. The way I see our role from a go to market perspective is we do have to engage, and we are engaging new audiences that we probably haven't been intimately sort of familiar with in the past. And that includes the line of business that includes also, you know, the architect internally within companies that are designing sort of best of breed architectures to deliver the technology infrastructures that will power their next generation of internal applications or even their own solutions to the market it includes. You know, if you're talking about ml ops, it includes talking to data scientists right and understanding. You know, what is that specific machine learning scenario that they are trying to, you know, train a model around? And how do we help deliver the best solution for them? Because we also know that putting that in how most of the time is too far away from your data or the edge, Um, from which you are collecting data from which again becomes super expensive. You have latency issues, and it's not a really great way to solve ml ops, right? We feel like we have a much better solution. And in talking to some of those audiences that are trying to solve those business challenges within our customer base, um, we are finding ourselves also talking to a lot of new audiences. And, you know, one audience that I'm intimately familiar with is obviously the developer audience, right. Developers don't want to worry about i t infrastructure. They don't want to have to walk over and tell someone that day. I need you to configure X y Z in order for me to start, you know, testing my code or my you know, sort of MPP. They want to know that it's all managed that it's quick time to value and that when they're ready to go, the infrastructure is there and ready to be deployed against the project that they're trying to execute. So those are really important audiences that I feel like we're starting to nurture, and we will have a lot more content and relevance for going forward with Green Lake. >>Yeah, a really important point there. I want also, you know, how do you kind of there's There's a big ecosystem around Green Lake. So, you know, give me a little bit about the you know, the differentiation of HP compared to some of the other hybrid solutions out there. And because I look, there's obviously hardware soft where solutions that HP has internally. But then you've also got, you know, VM ware, Nutanix, Red hat and others that are our partners, you know, how do you help customers sort through those? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think it begins with delivering choice to our customers right. At the end of the day, we need to make sure that we're up optimizing for what our customers are looking to do. So there has to be an element of openness with HP Green Lake that we're pretty proud to deliver. So we have multiple I SD partnerships, partnerships. You mentioned some of them, you know, VM Ware and Nutanix. With respect to delivering some of our solutions, I think from a competitive advantage, you know, I go back to the fact that you know the 70% of absent data that are still sitting on Prem or, you know, in a polo and edges our competitive advantage comes from being able to bring a true cloud experience. Um, to those absent data where I would argue no one else can do this in a way that has, you know, speed from a time to value perspective, scalability, right. Being able to sort of go up and down a managed for you, a true pay per use model and billing at that level of granularity, um, and the self service right, allowing you to self provisioned and do some of those things once we've delivered the core capabilities for you. So from a competitive advantage, I feel like we cover off more of the cloud like experience does than anyone else that does in the market. And then we also have the partnerships and the ability to bring in some of those third party I SP solutions that work incredibly well on relate. >>Yeah. One of the challenges we've seen in the field is, you know, customers they do have Ah e I guess we know he always is added So, you know, you mentioned you know, their shifts. But customers Absolutely. They have their data centers. They're using often multiple public clouds out there. And they are. You know, we've talked a lot to be about the edge, so help us understand. You know, where green Lake fits and how the portfolio helps customers as they need to be able >>to >>manage and optimize what they're doing across all those disparate environment. >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Customers. First of all, we're going to have a multi cloud and sort of a multimodal strategy, right? Some things they're going to put in the different public clouds and some things they're going to maintain on Prem or in a in a polo. And and then some things, of course, work better in an edge scenario. The great part about Green Lake is we solve the on Prem State problem in a really effective and cost effective and time to value perspective really, really well. But with Green Lake Central, we also give you the transparency to manage your public cloud footprint just as well. So we allow you to unify across that the different footprints that you want tohave. And we're also, you know, not proprietary when it comes to Green Lake Central, right? You can again, um, other pieces versus, you know, maybe some of the hyper scaler is that are trying to create more of a walled garden or a lock in scenario where, yes, you get transparency, but only as long as you're within their solution. >>Alright, So I understand there's about 1000 customers. We've passed 1000 customers Happy Green Lake, according to another interview that I did. So you've got sales, give us a little bit, you know, which we expect for kind of customer adoption. And what else do you expect us to be looking at from the Green Lake offerings? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think from, you know, a customer Women term perspective. It has just been fantastic to be part of this journey, at least for me. For the past seven weeks, and to see our customers really embrace this new way of how we deliver I t. Infrastructure to them, I think, in a way that meet them where they are right as they're transforming. We're bringing that on Prem Cloud like experience to their doorstep without them having to feel the pressure of migrating everything, whether it makes sense or not into the cloud again in terms of what's coming new, Um, I would reiterate the fact that it is looking at all of the basic services like containers VM storage, Compute. It's also starting to optimize around specific workloads again, Teoh the point earlier about ML ops, Um, but from what's new and exciting, I get really excited about Hey, I don't want our customer spending time thinking about how to architect and how to design the right i t. Or infrastructure offering. I want to be able to do that for them in order to deliver that experience that they need. And again, what that helps our customers with is cost time to value and the ability to get a pre configured solution that is already optimized right. We don't want our customers spending all of their time having to configure an architect. I t infrastructure. We want them to worry about the business outcomes and then tell us what they need. And then we create those pre configured solutions on their behalf, given their input. So so again, it's a very cloud like way to deliver value to our customers. And I think it also frees up our customers to focus the resources on the real innovation that they need to drive at their business level versus focusing on things that, you know we're experts in. And we can bring to them in a much quicker and more value of >>way. Absolutely. Thank you so much. You actually what We've heard loud. And they need to be able to shift away from things that they don't have, differentiated, and then don't add value to the business and focus on this business. FN our congratulations on the new position and definitely look forward to watching the continued progress. Good buzz around Green Lake >>and test. Thank you. Still thanks for having me. >>Alright. Stay tuned for lots more coverage from HP. Discover the virtual experience. I'm Stew Minimum And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> From around the globe its theCUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. Of course this year the event is virtual. We're bringing all the people on theCUBE from where they are and really happy to bring back to the program, one of our CUBE alumni, Paul Cormier, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Of course the keynote and you and I spoke ahead of the show. Paul great to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> My pleasure, always great to see you Stu. My pleasure. >> All right, so Paul lots have changed since last time we got together for summit. One things stayed the same though. So, you know, the big theme, I heard in your keynote, you talked about open hybrid cloud of course. We've been talking about cloud for years when you ran the product theme, you know, making Red Hat go everywhere is something that we've watched, you know, that move. Is anything different when you're talking to customers, when you're talking to your, the product themes, you think about the times were in, why is open hybrid cloud not a buzzword but hugely important in the times were facing? >> Because the big premise to open hybrid cloud is that customers, cloud has become part of people's infrastructure. I've seen very few if any true enterprise customers that are moving everything, every app to one cloud. And so I think what people really realized once they started implementing clouds, part of their infrastructure was that you going to always have applications that are running bare metal. Some are virtual machine maybe on top of VMware it might been a private cloud, and not many people saying you know what the public clouds are all so different from each other I might want to run one application for whatever reason in one in a different one or another I think they started to realize the actual operational cost to that, the security cost of that and even more mobility the development cost of that from the application perspective and now having five silos up there now how that's so costly so now our whole premise since the beginning of open hybrid cloud has been to give you that level playing field to have those things all the same no matter where the application wants whether experimental virtual machine private multiple public cloud and so in the long run as customers start to start to really go to cloud first application development and they can still manage that under one platform in a common way but at the same time managed develop secure it but at the same time they can manage develop and secure their legacy applications that are also on linux as well in the same way so I think in the long run it really brings it together and saves money and efficiency in those areas. >> Yeah it's I always loved I look over time we have certain words that we think we know what they mean and then they mature over time let's just say we'll start with the first piece of what you're talking about open we live through those of us that have been through that the really ascendancy of open-source is in the early days open was free and we joke it was free like puppies >> Yeah. but today open source of course is very prevalent we see it all over the place but give from an open hybrid cloud why open is important today and what customers should think, how do customers think about that today? >> There's probably two most misunderstood things with open so first thing is that open source is a development model, first of all. I always say it's a verb not a noun, I even say well think internally and externally. We're not an open source company, we're an enterprise software company with an open source development model. So you think about that, that's what that's really important. Why is the open source development model so important? It's important because everyone has the same opportunity in terms of the features of within the code everyone has the same opportunity to contribute. The best technology wins that's how it works in the upstream community is it's not a technology driven by one company that may have a one company agenda. It's really a development process that allows the best technology to win and I think that's one of the main things and one of the main reasons why you see all the innovation frankly in the last five years around infrastructure and development, associated pieces and tools around that of being in and around Linux because Linux was available, it was powerful, it was open when people wanted to develop for when people wanted to develop kubernetes for example, they had to make changes to the Linux kernel in order to do that it did work because they could and so those are the things that make it really important as a development model and I think those are the things that get confused a lot. I think the other things that get confuses a lot of people think that, "hey if I have this great technology and I just open-source is that it'll all just work, everyone will come, now that's not the case. The things that really, the projects that really succeed of an open-source perspective are the problems that are common and horizontal across a big group of people so they're trying to solve similar problems and that's one of the things that we found as you go further up the stack the length typically the less community is involved it's the horizontal layers where you need whether you're in banking or retail or telco or whatever they're all the same, those are the pieces where open-source really fits well. >> Alright so the second piece you talk about hybrid I think back to the early days Paul when cloud was first defined and we talked about public and private cloud we had discussions of hybrid cloud and multi clouds and the concern that I have is it was very much an infrastructure discussion and it was pieces and the vision that we always have is, were customers to actually get value is, the total solution needs to be more valuable than the sum of its parts. So it's really about hybrid applications about where my data lives, so do you agree with some of those things I'm saying how does Red Hat look at it and from your team i do get lots of the application and app dev discussion which I always find even more meaningful than arguing over ontologies of how you build your cloud. >> Everything you said is all about the application if you look at just where we started with linux just along what did Linux bring to the enterprise when we first started rally me you and I talked about this earlier that was the thing that really opened things up. The enterprise's started buying Linux they right they started buying Linux for Linux for $29.95 at the book stores but when I first came on board we talked to some of the banking customers in there, they said well we love this technology but every time you guys change a release on my applications breaker when I get new hardware it doesn't work etc. So it's all about the application Linux is better about that all the time from the beginning of time what hybrid it really means here, is that I can run that seamlessly across wherever that footprint is going to live and so I think that's also one of the things that gets confused a bit. When the cloud first started, the cloud vendors were telling people that every application was going to move to one cloud tomorrow right? We knew that was not practical, that's the other thing from open-source developers, we look at a practical perspective, we look back in 2007 I just looked at just to prepare for the note I just put up to the company. Back in 2007 at the summit I talked about any application anywhere anytime. That's really the essence of what hybrid is here, so what we found here is what every application is impractical for every application to move to one cloud and so cloud is powerful but it's become part of people's development and operations and security environment so now as we stitch that in may make that common for those three things for the operation security in development more application development world that's where the power is. So I see the day where application developers and application users won't know or care what platform the back-end day is coming from for whatever applications they're writing, they shouldn't care that should just happen seamlessly under the covers but having said that, that complicates thing and that's why management needs to be retooled with it as well. Sorry on that but I could talk about that for three days right? >> Yeah so as an industry we kind of argue about these and everybody feels that they understand the way the future should look. So Paul for a number of years it was, "we're going to build this stack "and let's have the exact same stack here and there." There were some of the big iron companies that did that a few years ago now you see some of your public cloud partners saying, "we can give you that same experience "that same hardware all the way "down to the chip level things are going to be the same." When I look at software companies, there's two that come to mind to live across dispersed environments. One is very much from a virtualization standpoint they design themselves to live on any hardware out there. Red Hat has a slightly different way of looking at things, so what's your take on kind of the stack and why is hybrid in that hybrid cloud model that you're building probably looks and sounds and feels different then I think almost anybody else out there? >> Well the cloud guys, they all have similar technologies underneath I mean most of it not all of its based on Linux but they're all different I mean remember the UNIX days I'm old enough to remember the UNIX day. That was the goal back then but like each hardware vendor did each cloud vendor is now taking that Linux or the Associated pieces with it and they have to make their changes to adapt to their environment and some of those changes don't allow for applications to be portable outside that environment, that's exactly like the OEM world of the past and so I hope some people hate it when I say this to make this a comparison but I really look at the cloud guys as a mainframe and certainly mainframe as and still does bring a ton of value to certain customer base and so if you're going to keep your application in that one place, a mainframe will all on you mainframe mentality will always stitch it to bet together better but that's not the reality of what customers are trying to do out there. So I really think you have to look at it that way it's not that much different in concept anyways to the OEM days whether from when they started running Linux and the thing that Red Hat's done that some of the others haven't for VMware for example, VMware they have no pieces that touch the application I mean they have some now they had photon, they had some of the other pieces that sort of tried to touch the application but at the end of the day we always concentrated in Linux and especially from a Red Hat perspective of keeping the environment the same, both from an application perspective and from a hardware perspective. Certainly when an application runs in the cloud, we don't have to worry about the hardware anymore but we still have to worry about the application and businesses are all about the application and so we always took that tack from both sides of that. I think that's one of VMware's weaknesses frankly is that applications don't run on hypervisors, they run on operating systems including when I say operating systems I mean containers because that is a Linux operating system. >> Yeah Paul a lot of good points you brought up there and it's interesting the mainframe analogy in the early days of cloud there were some that would throw stones and saying right you're rebuilding the mainframe and you're going to be locked in, this is going to be an environment so I'd love to get your thought you think about what's happening in application development, the rise of is you talked about containers and kubernetes serverless is out there there's that, "we want to enable the application developers but we don't want to get locked into some platform there. Talk about red-hat's role how your products are helping the ship, help customers make sure that they can take advantage of some of these new ways of building, maintaining and changing without being stuck on any specific platform or technology >> Well the first place, I believe I'm sure I will be corrected on this but we really are the only company that I can think of at this moment that is a hundred percent open source. Everything we do when our products go is open source based goes back upstream to the community for everyone to take advantage of so that's the first thing. I mean the second thing we do is one of the big fallacies is, open source has become so popular that people are confusing upstream projects with downstream products and so for us I'll use us as an example, I'll use Linux and I'll use kubernetes as an example, the Linux kernel we all built from the Linux kernel us, Susa, Ubuntu we all build from the Linux kernel but at the end of the day we all make choices when we bring that upstream work down to become a product. In our case we go upstream to rel, we go from fedora to sent us to rel. We all make choices, which file systems were going to package, what development environment we're going to to package, what packages werre gonna package and so when we get down to what's get deployed in the enterprise, those choices in what makes the difference of why by rel is slightly different than SUSE Linux which is slightly different than Canonical's upon - but they're all come from the same heritage, the same as the case with kubernetes is this sort of fallacy that kubernetes is the last time I checked it was 127 different kubernetes vendors out there. They're all just going to magically work together yes they all come from the same place but we have to touch the users face, we have to touch the kernel and so there how do you line that up in the life cycle of what the customers get is going to be different. We might be able to take different pieces from different from those 127, make it work at one point but the first time any of us makes a change, it's not coordinated with the other side, it's probably going to break. Anyone our life cycles go out 10 plus years and so engineering that altogether is something that makes it all work together as you upgrade whether it be hardware or your applications and so some people confuse that with not being old till 100 percent open. When we find a bug in rel, rel that's been out there for five years maybe we give that fix back to the upstream community that's open it's out there and so I think that's the part that this doesn't become so accepted now and so much part of the mainstream now that we very much confused projects with products and so that's one of the biggest confusion points out there. >> Yeah really good points there Paul. So when I think about some of the things we've heard over the years is in the original days it was, "Oh well public hug Paul? I'm not going to need rel anymore they've got Linux then kubernetes has come along and Red Hat's had a really strong position but you look at it and you say, "Okay well if I'm most customers, "if I'm doing Amazon, "if I'm doing Google, "if I'm doing Microsoft, "I'm probably going to end up using some of their native services that they've got built-in. Talk about how the role of Red Hat kind of continues to change and you live in this multi cloud environment and i think it's kind of that intersection that you were talking about, open and compatibility as opposed to. You're not saying that Red Hat's going to conquer the world and take down all the other options >> Well cloud providers bring a ton of value. I mean the users have to be smart on how and when they use that value. If you truly are going to be a hundred percent of your applications in one public cloud, then you probably will get the best solution from that one public cloud. Serverless is a great example if you're an Amazon and you spin up via services serverless that container that gets spun up is never going to run outside that Club, if that's okay with you that's okay with you. (Voice scrambles) The we've gone about this is as I said to give you that seamless environment all the way across. If you want to run just containers, (voice scrambles) on one particular cloud vendor and you want it under their kubernetes and it's never going to run in any other place, that's okay too but if you're going to have an environment with applications that are in multiple cloud vendors infrastructure you're even on your own, you're now going to have to spin up these different silos of that technology even though the technology as the same heritage. So that's a huge operational and development cost as you grow bigger and able to order to do that and so our set a strategy is very simple, it's give the developers operations and security people that common environment to work across and over time (voice scrambles) they shouldn't care where the services are coming from. It should just all work and that's why you seen things like automation being so important now. I mean our nation is our biggest growing business with ansible right now and part of the reason is as people spread out to a container based environment applications that may now spread across those different footprints maybe you want to have your front (voice scrambles) we have one of the rel customers in Europe that has the front facing customer side of their ticket, their ticketing system up in the public cloud and they've got the backend financial transaction database pieces that click credit cards behind their firewall, that's really one application spread across containers, if you have do you want to have to manage the front end of that with one kubernetes and the backend of that were the different kubernetes? Probably not and so that's really what we bring to the table as we've really grown in with this new technology. >> Alright, so final question I have for you Paul I'm actually going to get away a little bit from your background on the product piece you have to talk a little bit about just red hat going forward. So you talked about, we know for many years red hat has been much more than the Linux piece you talk about automation I've got some great interviews this week talking about some of the the latest in application development, lots of open source projects and so many open source projects (laughing) nobody can keep them all straight there. So as customers look at strategic partnerships, what is the role of red hat and with now being under IBM Jim white her steps over to become president there Arvind of course had a long relationship and it was the architect behind the Red Hat acquisition what's the same and what's different as we think about Red Hat 2020 under your leadership? >> I think it's a lot of the same I mean I think the the difference becomes in the world we're in right now is sort of how we can help our customers come out of back and back into re-entry right and so how that's going to to be different than the past (voice scrambles) we're working through that with many of our customers and we think we can be a big help here because we run their business and today where they run their business over the platforms on their business and that's not going to go away for them and in fact if anything that's going to get even more critical for them because they've got to get more automation to get just more efficiency out of it so in terms of what we do and as a company that's not going to change at all I mean we've been on this path that we're on for a long time. I stand up in front of our sales kickoffs every year is hearing and virtual as well and I say, "we'll to talk to you about the strategy." Guess what? It hasn't changed much from last year and that's a good thing because these technology rollouts are multi-year rollouts, so we're going to continue on that I mean the other thing too is, our customers are seeing moving many more of their work close to the Linux environment and so I think we can help them expand that as well and I think from an IBM perspective (voice scrambles) one of the big premises here from our perspective is to help us scale because they're in the process of helping their customers move to this next generation architectures and at the same time be able support the current architectures and that's what we do well and so they can just help us get to places that we just wouldn't have had the time and the resources maybe to get there get on our own so we can expand that footprint even more quickly with IBM. So that's the focus right now is to really help our customers move to the next phase of this in terms of re-entry >> Yeah as I've heard you and many other Red Hatters say Red Hat is still Red Hat and definitely it's something that we can see loud and clear at Red Hat summit 2020. Thank you so much Paul. >> Thank you Stu nice to see you again. >> All right lots of coverage from Red Hat summit 2020 be sure to check out the cube net for the whole back catalogue that we have of Paul their customers, there their partners and thank you for so watching the queue [Music]

we've made just tremendous progress over the last several years with Microsoft you know started back in 2015 where we you know cross certified hypervisors and that's kind of a basic you know let's work together over the last couple years it's truly blossomed into a really good partnership where you know I think they've and we both gotten over this you know Linux vs. Windows thing and you know I said we've gotten over I think we both recognized you know we need to serve our customers in the best possible way and that clearly means is two of the largest infrastructure software providers working closely together and what's been interesting as we've gone forward we find more and more common ground about how we can better serve our customers whether that's you know what might sound mundane that's a big deal sequel server on realm and setting benchmarks around that or dotnet running on our platforms now all the way to really being able to deliver a hybrid cloud with a seamless experience with openshift from you know on premise - - to Azure and I mean having to H Bank on States twenty five thousand containers running in production moving back and forth - sure and I think it's more building on what I talked to you about a year ago if I remember last May May of 2018 in San Francisco so I was exposing very heavily look the world's going to move towards containers the world is already embraced Linux this is the time to have a new architecture that enables hybrid much along the lines that gem and all of the clients as well as Ginni and Sasha we're talking about on stage yesterday so you put all that together and you say that is what we mentioned last year and we were clear that is where the world is going to go nice step forward a few months from there into October of 2018 and on 29th of October we announced that IBM intends to acquire Red Hat so then you say wow we put actually our money where amount was we were talking about the strategy we were talking about Linux containers openshift the partnership we announced last May was IBM software products together with OpenShift that is we already believed in that but now this allows us coming together it's it's more like a marriage then sort of loose partners passing each other in the middle of the night we are so excited and you know having put in all the time part of this is representing all the work the team has done and the communities have done when you think about all the work that goes into a Linux distribution it is everybody it's the community's it's the partners so we released the Red Hat Enterprise Linux eight beta in November mid-november we've had 40,000 downloads of that beta since November people who have provided feedback and comments suggestions all of that fed into what we've released today as the Red Hat Enterprise Linux eight general availability so it's a big day and part of it is we're just so proud of how we've done it and what we've done and we've really redefined what are not the value of an operating system with Red Hat Enterprise limits eight tech transformation started about ten years ago bean CI over the company about ten years and frankly the first five years were just fixing the basics so getting in place what we'd call world-class systems doing a bunch of stuff on resilience and security and all of that kind of stuff and the other thing and this is the dramatic change you know ten years ago when I joined the company we were 85% outsource to managed service vendors so I had technology people that basically were signing contractors and managing service agreements if we didn't have technology DNA and so you know over those five years and the full ten years actually we've been to not about just in sourcing and rebuilding our technical muscle if you like so now we're we've gone from 85% outsource to 90% in sourced so we run build and manage our own we're at word now a technology company yeah and and five years ago we had a real big shift and you know we were we were closest to what was going on in China and so probably saw this before many many of the other banks saw this around the world of what Alibaba was doing with ant financial and $0.10 and this whole just just complete disruption of how customers interact with the banking industry so we got an early lead on this digital transformation and really for the last five six years would be doubling down on building a pure digital offering and we see ourselves as a technology company providing banking services not as a bank with some technology department in the backend open source is the innovation model going forward period end of story full stop and I think as I said in my keynote yesterday you know leading up to the the biggest acquisition ever for a software company not an open source software coming a software company that happened to be an open source software company I don't think there's any doubt that that open source has one here here today it and it's because of the pace of innovation yeah our goal is to make sure we're supporting those upstream communities so all of all of Red Hat software is open source and we work with a whole community of individuals and companies and the upstream open source software and we want to make sure that we're not just contributing features that we want but that we're a good player or that we're helping to make sure those communities are healthy and so for a number of the projects that were involved in we actually assigned a full-time Community Manager a community lead to help make sure that project is healthy so we have someone on everything from Saif and Gloucester to fedora to kubernetes I'm just making sure the community does well yeah we do a little bit of both and so a lot of it is responding to the community and that's one of the areas that Red Hat is really excelled as taking what's popular what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable product or stable solution that developers can use but we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present so we start from like various runtimes to actually contain our platforms and so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help drive fill that need because we hear it from customers a lot it's like things are doing are great but like there's all these projects that need to come together sort as a product or unified experience and so we spend a lot of our time trying to bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different tasks and also focus across like not just the Java runtimes which we hit a lot of Java so you might have baked security in right I mean we have a secure supply chain and you talk about difficult things for la right every package that we that comes in that is we totally refresh everything from upstream but when they come in we have to inspect all the crypto we have to run them through security scans vulnerability scanners we've got three different vulnerability scanners that we're using we run them through penetration testing so there's a huge amount of work that just comes just to inherit all that from the upstream but in addition to that we've put a lot of work into making sure that well our crypto has to be Fitz certified right which means you've got to meet standards we also have work that's gone in to make sure that you can enable a security policy consistently across the system so that no application that you load on can violate your security policy we've got enough tables in their new firewalling Network bound disk encryption that actually it kind of ties in with a lot of the system management work that we've done so a thing that I think differentiates rl8 is we put a lot of focus on making it easy to use on day one and easy to manage day two well we're not getting there were there what that allows us to do is to take the reference designs that we have and the testing that we've we've previously validated with Intel and Red Hat and be able to snap pieces together so it's just a matter of what's different and unique for the client in the client situation and their growth pattern what's great about trueskill is that in this model is that we can predictably analyze or consumption forward based on the business growth so for example if you're using open shipped and you start with a small cluster for say one or two lines of business as they adopt DevOps methodologies going from either waterfall or agile we can we can predictably analyze the consumption forward that they're going to need so they can plan years in advance as they progress and as such the other snap-ins say uh storage that they're going to need for data and motion or data at rest so it's it's actually smarter and what that ends up doing is obviously saving the money but it saves some time you know typical model is going back to IT and saying we need these servers we need the storage and the software and bolt it all together and the IT guys are you know hair on fire running around already so so they can you know as long as IT approves it they can sort of bypass that that big heavy lift we're trying to do is create role models for women and girls who would like to participate in technology but perhaps are not sure that that's the way that they can go and they don't see people that are like them so they're less tendency to join into this type of communities so with the community award winner we're looking at a professional who's been contributing to open source for a period of time and with our academic winner we're looking to spur more people who are in university to think about it and of course the big idea is you'll all be looking at these women as people that will inspire you to potentially do more things with open source and more things with technology we've been hearing for many many years that we definitely need to have more gender diversity in tech in general in an open source and Red Hat is kind of uniquely situated to focus on the open source community and so with our role is the open source leader we really feel like we need to make that commitment and to be able to foster that right so so Sierra's a supercomputer and what's unique about these systems is that we're solving there's lots of systems that network together maybe are bigger a number of servers than us but we're doing scientific simulation and that kind of computing requires a level of parallelism and it's very tightly coupled so all the servers are running a piece of the problem they all have to sort of operate together if any one of them is running slow it makes the whole thing go slow so it's really this tightly coupled nature of supercomputers that make things really challenging you know we talked about performance if if one server is just running slow for some reason you know everything else is going to be affected by that so we really do care about performance and we really do care about just every little piece of the hardware you know performing as it should so we thought okay let's take all of these best practices that we have and build more or less a methodology around it how to make this actually works like how to do this we really broke it down into like individual sprints do dissin sprint one the distance sprint do to really have the results within three months six months 12 months whatever the places that you want to run on and then we realize talking to customers this by itself isn't still enough so that's why we started to open up this to an entire ecosystem so we brought ecosystem partners along like working closely with red a lot of other companies but also system integrators who can help us we speak up projects because we as a company are software companies we're not a services or consulting company and we do support customers and some of those engagement but if you think of like a really fortune 500 company that's a multi-year project it will keep hundreds of busy people busy so to recap like built-in methodology we built the ecosystem to deliver on that promise at scale and now the last step was we as we were doing this we also built like a reference architecture for it and was just in an internal IDE so how do we like structure this bill that reference architecture and then realize okay I think it's kind of like super helpful for customers so that this way we then decided to open source this reference architecture is fabric as well to like the entire software community so they can also use it so technically these three pieces it's the methodology it's the ecosystem and it's like the reference architecture that you can work with to help you achieve you [Music]

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. I'm Stewman and my cohost is Justin Warren. And coming back to our program, one of our cube alumni and be coach hair of this coupon cloud native con prion Lyles who is also a senior staff engineer at VMware. Brian, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on. And do you want to have a shout out of course to a Vicky Chung who is your coach hair. She has been doing a lot of work. She came to our studio ahead of it to do a preview and unfortunately she's supposed to be sitting here but a little under the weather. And we know there was nothing worse than, you know, doing travel and you know, fighting an illness. But she's a little sick today, but um, uh, she knows that we'll, we'll, we'll still handle it. Alright, so Brian, 12,000 people here in attendance. >>Uh, more keynotes than most of us can keep a track of. So, first of all, um, congratulations. Uh, things seem to be going well other than maybe, uh, choosing the one day of the year that it rained in, uh, you know, San Diego, uh, which we we can't necessarily plan for. Um, I'd love you to bring us a little bit insight as to some of the, the, the goals and the themes that, uh, you know, you and Vicki and the, the, the, the, the community we're, we're looking at for, for this coupon. So you're right, let's help thousand people and so many sponsors and so many ideas and so many projects, it's really hard to have a singular theme. But a few months ago we came up with was, well, if, if Kubernetes in this cloud software make us better or basically advances, then we can do more advanced things. >>And then our end users can be more advanced. And it was like a three pong thing. And if you look, go back and look at our keynotes, he would say, Hey, we're looking at our software. Hey, we're looking at an amazing things that we did, especially cat by that five G keynote yesterday. And the notice that we had, it was me talking about how we could look forward and then, and then notice we had in talking about security and then we had Walmart and target talking about how they're using it and, and that was all on purpose. It's trying to tell a story that people can go back and look at. Yeah, I liked the, the message that you were, you were trying to put out there around how we need to make Kubernetes a little bit easier, but how we need to change the way that we talk about it as well. >>So maybe you could, uh, fill us in a little bit more. Let's say, unfortunately, Kubernetes is not going to get an easier, um, that's like saying we wish Linux was easier to use. Um, Linux has a huge ABI and API interface. It's not going to get easier. So what we need to do is start doing what we did with Linux and Linux is the Colonel. Um, this should be some Wars happened over the years and you notice some distributions are easier to use. Another. So if you use the current fedora or you the current Ubuntu or even like mint, it's getting really easy to use. And I'm not suggesting that we need Kubernetes distributions. That's actually the furthest thing, but we do need to work on building our ecosystem on top of Kubernetes because I mentioned like CIS CD, um, observability security audit management and who knows what else we need to start thinking about those things as pretty much first-class items. >>Just as important as Kubernetes. Kubernetes is the Colonel. Yeah. Um, in the keynotes, there's, as you said, there's such a broad landscape here. Uh, uh, I've heard some horror stories that people like, Oh, Hey, where do I start? And they're like, Oh, here's the CNCF landscape. And they're like, um, I can't start there. There's too much there. Uh, you, you picked out and highlighted, um, some of the lesser known pieces. Uh, th there's some areas that are a little bit mature. What, what are some of the more exciting things that you've seen going on right now, your system and this ecosystem? >> Um, I'm not even gonna. I highlighted open policy agent as a, as an interesting product. I don't know if it's the right answer, actually. I kind of wish there was a competitor just so I could determine if it was the right answer. >>But things like OPA and then like open telemetry, um, two projects coming together and having even bigger goals. Uh, let's make a severability easy. What I would also like to see is a little bit more, more maturity and the workflow space. So, you know, the CII and CD space. And I know with Argo and flux merging to Argo flux, uh, that's very interesting. And just a little bit of a tidbit is that I, I also co-chair the CNCF SIG application delivery, uh, special interest group, but, uh, we're thinking about that, that space right there. So I would love to see more in the workflow space, but then also I would like to see more security tools and not just old school check, check, check, but, um, think about what Aqua security is doing. And I'm, I don't know if they're now Snick or S, I don't know how to say it, but, um, there's, there's companies out there rethinking security. >>Let's do that. Yeah. I spoke to Snick a couple of days ago and it's, I'm pretty sure it's sneak. Apparently it stands for, so now you know, which that was news to me that, so now I know interesting. But they have a lot of good projects coming up. Yeah. You mentioned that the ecosystem and that you like that there's competitors for particular projects to kind of explore which way is the right way of doing things. We have a lot of exhibitors here and we have a lot of competitors out there trying to come into this ecosystem. It seems to actually be growing even bigger. Are we going to see a period of consolidation where some of these competing options, we decided that actually no, we don't want to use that. We want to go over here. I mean according to crossing the chasm, yes, but we need to figure out where we are on the maturity chart for, for the whole ecosystem. >>So I think in a healthy, healthy ecosystem, people don't succeed and products go away, but then what we see is in maybe six months or a year or two later, those same founders are out there creating new products. So not everyone's going to win on their first shot. So I think that's fine because, you know, we've all had failures in the past, but we're still better for those failures. Yeah, I've heard it described as a kind of Cambridge and explosion at the moment. So hopefully we don't get an asteroid that comes in and, uh, and hopefully it is out cause yeah. Um, one of the things really, really noticed is, uh, if you went back a year or even two years ago, we were talking about very much the infrastructure, the building blocks of what we had. Uh, I really noticed front and center, especially in the keynote here, talking a lot about the workload. >>You're talking about the application. We're talking about, uh, you know, much more up the stack and uh, from kind of that application, uh, uh, piece down, even, uh, some friends of mine that were new to this ecosystem was like, I don't understand what language they're talking. I'm like, well, they're talking to the app devs. That's why, you know, they're not speaking to you. Is that, was that intentional? >> Well, I mean for me it is because I like to speak to the app devs and I realized that infrastructure comes and goes. I've been doing this for decades now and I've seen the rise of Cisco as, as a networking platform and I've seen their ups and downs. I've worked in security. But what I know is fundamentals are, are just that. And I would like to speak to the developers now because we need to get back to the developers because they create the value. >>I mean the only people who win at selling via our selling Kubernetes are vendors of Kubernetes. So, you know, I work for one and then there's the clouds and then there's other companies as well. So the thing that stays constant are people are building applications and ultimately if Kubernetes and the cloud native landscape can't take care of those application developers remember happened, remember, um, OpenStack, and not in like a negative way, but remember OpenStack, it got to be so hard that people couldn't even focus on what gave value. >> Unlike obvious fact leaves on it. It's still being used a lot in, in service providers and so on. So technology never really goes away completely. It just may fade off and live in a corner and then we move on to whatever's the next newest and greatest thing and then end up reinventing ourselves and having to do all of the same problems again. >>It feels a little bit like that with sometimes the Kubernetes way where haven't we already sold this? Linux is still here, Linux is still, and Linux is still growing. I mean Linux is over Virgin five right now and Linux is adapting and bringing in new things in a Colonel and moving things out to the user land. Kubernetes needs to figure out how to do that as well. Yeah, no Brian, I think it's a great point. You know, I'm an infrastructure guy and we know the only reason infrastructure exists is to serve up that application. What Matt managed to the business, my application, my data. Um, you and your team have some open source projects that you're involved in. Maybe give us a little bit about right? So oxen is a, so let me tell you the quick story. Joe Beda and I talked about how do we approach developers where they are. >>And one thing came up really early in that conversation was, well, why don't we just tell developers where things are broken? So come to find out using Kubernetes object model and a little bit of computer science, like just a tiny little bit. You can actually build this graph where everything is connected and then all you need to do then is determine if for any type of object, is it working or is it not working? So now look at this. Now I can actually show you what's broken and what's not broken. And what makes octane a little bit different is that we also wrapped it with a dashboard that shows everything inside of a Kubernetes cluster. And then we made it extensible. And just, just a crazy thing. I made a plugin API one weekend because I'm like, Oh, that would be kind of cool. And just at this conference alone, nine to 10 people to walk up to me and said, Oh, um, we use oxygen and we use your plugin system. >>And now we've done things that I can't imagine, and I think I might've said this, I know I've said it somewhere recently, but the hallmark of a good platform is when people start creating things you could never imagine on it. And that's what Linux did. That's what Kubernetes is doing. And octane is doing it in the small right now. So kudos to me and me really and my team that's really exciting. So fry, Oakton, Coobernetti's and Tansu both are seven sided. Uh, was, was that, that, that uh, uh, moving to, uh, to, to eight, uh, so no marketing. Okay. And I don't profess to understand what marketing is. Someone just named it. And I said, you know what, I'm a developer. I don't really mind w as long as you can call it something, that's fine. I do like the idea that we should evolve the number of platonic solids. >>There's another answer too. So if you think about what seven is, it, um, people were thinking ahead and said, well, someone could actually take that and use it as another connotation. So I was like, all right, we'll just get out of that. That's why it's called octane, but still nautical theme. Okay, great. Brian. So much going on. You know, even outside of this facility, there's things going on. Uh, any hidden gems that just the, you know, our audience that's watching or people that we'll look back at this event and say, Hey, you know, here's some cool little things there. I mean, they hit the Twitters, I'm sure they'll see the therapy dogs and whatnot, but you know, for the people geeking out, some of those hidden gems that you'd want to share. Um, some of the hidden gems or I'll, I'll throw up to, um, watch what these end-user companies are doing and watch what, like the advanced companies like Walmart and target and capital one are doing. >>I just think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and think about this. They have a crazy amount of money. They're actually investing time in this. It might be a good idea. And other hidden gyms are, are companies that are embracing the, the extension model of Kubernetes through custom resource definitions and building things. So the other day I had the tests on, on the stage, and they're not the only example of this, but running my sequel and Coobernetti's and it pretty much works all well, let's see what we can run with this. So I think that there's going to be a lot more companies that are going to invest in this space and, and, and actually deliver on these types of products. And, and I think that's a very interesting space. Yeah. We, we spoke to Bloomberg just before and uh, we talked to the tests, we spoke to Subaru from the test yesterday. >>Uh, seeing how people are using Kubernetes to build these systems, which can then be built upon themselves. Right. I think that's, that's probably for me, one of the more interesting things is that we end up with a platform and then we build more platforms on top of it. But we, we're creating these higher levels of abstraction, which actually gets us closer to just being able to do the work that we want to do as developers. I don't need to think about how all of the internals work, which again to your keynote today is like, I don't want to write machine code and I just want to solve this sort of business problem. If we can embed that into the, into this ecosystem, then it just makes everyone's lives much, much easier. So you basically, that is my secret. I'm really, I know people hate it for attractions and they say they will, but no one hates an abstraction. >>You don't actually turn the crank in your motor to make the car run. You press the accelerator and it goes. Yeah. Um, so we need to figure out the correct attractions and we do that through iteration and failure, but I'm liking that people are pushing the boundaries and uh, like Joe beta and Kelsey Hightower said is that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. It is basically an API for writing API APIs. Let's take advantage of that and write API APIs. All right. Well, Brian, thank you. Thank Vicky. Uh, please, uh, you know, share, congratulations to the team for everything done here. And while you might be stepping down as, or we do hope you'll come and join us back on the cube at a future event. No, I enjoyed talking to you all, so thank you. Alright, thanks so much Brian for Justin Warren we'll be back with more of our water wall coverage. CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. Thanks for watching the queue.

>>live from Atlanta, Georgia. It's the Q covering answerable best 2019. Brought to you by Red hat. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cube. Live coverage in Atlanta, Georgia for answerable fest. This is Red Hats Event where all the practices come together. The community to talk about automation anywhere. John Kerry with my coast to Minutemen, our next two guests arrive. And Bergeron, principal community architect for answerable now Red Hat and Greg Dankers Berg, senior director, Community Ansel's. Well, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Okay, So we were talking before camera that you guys had. This is a two day event. We're covering the Cube. You guys have an awful fast, but you got your community day yesterday. The day before the people came in early. The core community heard great things about it. Love to get an update. Could you share just what happened yesterday? And then we'll get in some of the community. Sure. >>We s o uh, for all of our answer professed for a while now we've started them with ah, community contributor conference. And the goal of that conference is to get together. Ah, lot of the people we work with online right people we see is IRC nicks or get hub handles rights to get them together in the same room. Ah, have them interact with, uh, with core members of our team. Uh, and that's where we really do, uh, make a lot of decisions about how we're gonna be going forward, get really direct feedback from some of our key contributors about the decisions were making The things were thinking about, uh, with the goal of, you know, involving our community deeply in a lot of decisions we make, that's >>a working session, meets social, get together. That's >>right, Several working sessions and then, you know, drinks afterward for those who want the drinks and just hang out time that >>way. Drinks and their last night was really good. I got the end of it. I missed the session, but >>they have the peaches, peaches, it on the >>table. That was good. But this is the dynamic community. This is one things we notice here. Not a seat open in the house on the keynote Skinny Ramon Lee, active participant base from this organic as well Be now going mainstream. How >>you >>guys handling it, how you guys ride in this way? Because certainly you certainly do. The communities which is great for feedback get from the community. But as you have the commercial eyes open sores and answerable, it's a tough task. >>Well, I'd like to think part of it is, I guess maybe it's not our first rodeo. Is that what we'd say? I mean, yeah, uh, for Ansel. I worked at ELASTICSEARCH, uh, doing community stuff. Before that, I worked at Red Hat. It was a fedora. Project leader, number five. And you were Fedora project Leader. What number was that? Number one depends >>on how you count, but >>you're the You're the one that got us to be able to call it having a federal project leader. So I sort of was number one. So we've been dealing with this stuff for a really long time. It's different in Anselm that, you know, unlike a lot of, you know, holds old school things like fedora. You know, a lot of this stuff is newer and part of the reason it's really important for us to get You know, some of these folks here to talk to us in person is that you know especially. And you saw my keynote this morning where they talked about we talked about modularity. Lot of these folks are really just focused on. They're one little bit and they don't always have is much time. People are working in lots of open source projects now, right, and it's hard to pay deep attention to every single little thing all the time. So this gives them a day of in case you missed it. Here's the deep, dark dive into everything that you know we're planning or thinking about, and they really are. You know, people who are managing those smaller parts all around answerable, really are some of our best feedback loops, right? Because they're people who probably wrote that model because they're using it every single day and their hard core Ansel users. But they also understand how to participate in community so we can get those people actually talking with the rest of us who a lot of us used to be so sad. Men's. I used to be a sis admin, lots of us. You know. A lot of our employees actually just got into wanting to work on Ansel because they loved using it so much of their jobs. And when you're not, actually, since admitting every day, you you lose a little bit of >>the front lines with the truth of what's around. Truth is right there >>and putting all these people together in room make sure that they all also, you know, when you have to look at someone in the eye and tell them news that they might not like you have a different level of empathy and you approach it a little bit differently than you may on the Internet. So, >>Robin So I lived in your keynote this morning. You talked about answerable. First commit was only back in 2012. So that simplicity of that modularity and the learnings from where open source had been in the past Yes, they're a little bit, you know, what could answerable do, being a relatively young project that it might not have been able to dio if it had a couple of decades of history? >>Maybe Greg should tell the story about the funk project >>way. There was a There was a project, a tread hat that we started in 2007 in a coffee shop in Chapel Hill, North Carolina is Ah, myself and Michael the Han and Seth the doll on entry likens Who still works with this with us? A danceable Ah, and we we put together Ah, an idea with all the same underpinnings, right? Ah, highly modular automation tool We debated at the time whether it should be based on SSL or SS H for funk. We chose SSL Ah, and you know, after watching that grow to a certain point and then stagnates and it being inside of red Hat where, you know, there were a lot of other business pressures, things like that. We learned a lot from that experience and we were able to take that experience. And then in 2012 there there's the open source community was a little different. Open source was more acceptable. Get Hubbell was becoming a common plat platform for open source project hosting. And so a lot of things came together in a short pier Time All that experience, although, >>and also market conditions, agenda market conditions in 2007 Cloud was sort of a weird thing that not really everyone was doing 2012 rolls around. Everyone has these cloud images and they need to figure out how to get something in it. Um, and it turns out that Hansel's a really great way to actually do that. And, you know, even if we had picked SS H back in the beginning, I don't know, you know, not have had time projects grow to a certain point. And I could point a lots of projects that were just It's a shame they were so ahead of their time. And because of that, you know, >>timing is everything with the key. I think now what I've always admired about the simplicity is automation requires that the abstract, the way, the complexities and so I think you bring a cloud that brings up more complexity, more use cases for some of the underlying paintings of the plumbing. And this is always gonna This is a moving train that's never going to stop. What was the feedback from the community this year around? As you guys get into some of these analytical capabilities, so the new features have a platform flair to it. It's a platform you guys announced answerable automation platform that implies that enables some value. >>You know, I >>think in >>a way. We've always been a platform, right, because platform is a set of small rules and then modules that attached to it. It's about how that grows, right? And, uh, traditionally, we've had a batteries included model where every module and plug in was built to go into answerable Boy, that got really big bright and >>we like to hear it. I don't even know how many I keep say, I'll >>say 2000. Then it'll be 3000 say 3000 >>something else, a lot of content. And it's, you know, in the beginning, it was I can't imagine this ever being more than 202 150 batteries included, and at some point, you know, it's like, Whoa, yeah, taking care of this and making sure it all works together all the time gets >>You guys have done a great You guys have done a great job with community, and one of the things that you met with Cloud is as more use cases come, scale becomes a big question, and there's real business benefits now, so open source has become part of the business. People talk about business, models will open source. You guys know that you've been part of that 28 years of history with Lennox. But now you're seeing Dev Ops, which is you'll go back to 78 2009 10 time frame The only the purest we're talking Dev ops. At that time, Infrastructures Co was being kicked around. We certainly been covering the cubes is 2010 on that? But now, in mainstream enterprise, it seems like the commercialization and operational izing of Dev ops is here. You guys have a proof point in your own community. People talk about culture, about relationships. We have one guest on time, but they're now friends with the other guy group dowels. So you stay. The collaboration is now becoming a big part of it because of the playbook because of the of these these instances. So talk about that dynamic of operational izing the Dev Ops movement for Enterprise. >>All right, so I remember Ah, an example at one of the first answer professed I ever went thio There were there were a few before I came on board. Ah, but it was I >>think it was >>the 1st 1 I came to when I was about to make the jump from my previous company, and I was just There is a visitor and a friend of the team, and there was an adman who talked to me and said, For the first time, I have this thing, this playbook, that I can write and that I can hand to my manager and say this is what we're going to D'oh! Right? And so there was this artifact that allowed for a bridging between different parts of the organization. That was the simplicity of that playbook that was human readable, that he could show to his boss or to someone else in the organ that they could agree on. And suddenly there was this sort of a document that was a mechanism for collaboration that everyone could understand buy into that hadn't really existed before. Answerable existed after me. That was one of the many, you know, flip of the light moments where I was like, Oh, wow, maybe we have something >>really big. There were plenty of other infrastructures, code things that you could hand to someone. But, you know, for a lot of people, it's like I don't speak that language right? That's why we like to say like Ansel sort of this universal automation language, right? Like everybody can read it. You don't have to be a rocket scientist. Uh, it's, you know, great for your exact example, right? I'm showing this to my manager and saying This is the order of operations and you don't have to be a genius to read it because it's really, really readable >>connecting system which connects people >>right. It's fascinating to May is there was this whole wave of enterprise collaboration tools that the enterprise would try to push down and force people to collaborate. But here is a technology tool that from the ground up, is getting people to do that collaboration. And they want to do it. And it's helping bury some >>of those walls. And it's interesting you mention that I'm sure that something like slack is a thing that falls into that category. And they've built around making sure that the 20 billion people inside a company all sign up until somebody in the I T departments like, What do you mean? These random people are just everyone's using it. No one saving it isn't secure, and they all freak out, and, um, well, I mean, this is sort of, you know, everybody tells her friend about Ansel and they go, Oh, right, Tool. That's gonna save the world Number 22 0 wait, actually, yeah. No, this is This actually is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get started. >>Well, you know, sometimes the better mouse trap will always drive people to that solution. You guys have proven that organic. What's interesting to me is not only does it keep win on capabilities, it actually grew organically. And this connective tissue between different groups, >>right? Got it >>breaks down that hole silo mentality. And that's really where I tease been stuck? Yes. And as software becomes more prominent and data becomes more prominent, it's gonna just shift more power in the hands of developer and to the, uh, just add mons who are now being redeployed into being systems, architects or whatever they are. This transitional human rolls with automation, >>transformation architect >>Oh my God, that's a real title. I don't >>have it, but >>double my pay. I'll take it. >>So collections is one of the key things talked about when we talk about the Antelope Automation platform. Been hearing a lot discussion about how the partner ecosystems really stepping up even more than before. You know, 4600 plus contributors out there in community, But the partners stepping up Where do you see this going? Where? Well, collections really catalyze the next growth for your >>It's got to be the future for us that, you know, there there were a >>few >>key problems that we recognize that the collections was ultimately the the dissolution that we chose. Uh, you know, one key problem is that with the batteries included model that put a lot of pressure on vendors to conform to whatever our processes were, they had to get their batteries in tow. Are thing to be a part of the ecosystem. And there was a huge demand to be a part of our ecosystem. The partners would just sort of, you know, swallow hard and do what they needed to d'oh. But it really wasn't optimized Tol partners, right? So they might have different development processes. They might have different release cycles. They might have different testing on the back end. That would be, you know, more difficult to hook together collections, breaks a lot of that out and gives our partners a lot of freedom to innovate in their own time. Uh, >>release on their own cycle, the down cycle. We just released our new version of software, but you can't actually get the new Ansel modules that are updated for it until answerable releases is not always the thing that you know makes their product immediately useful. You know, you're a vendor, you really something new. You want people to start using it right away, not wait until, you know answerable comes around so >>and that new artifact also creates more network effects with the, you know, galaxy and automation hub. And you know, the new deployment options that we're gonna have available for that stuff. So it's, I think it's just leveling up, right? It's taking the same approach that's gotten us this foreign, just taking out to, uh, to another level. >>I certainly wouldn't consider it to be like that. Partners air separate part of our They're still definitely part of the community. It's just they have slightly different problems. And, you know, there were folks from all sorts of different companies who are partners in the contributor summit. Yesterday >>there were >>actually, you know, participating and you know, folks swapping stories and listening to each other and again being part of that feedback. >>Maybe just a little bit broader. You know, the other communities out there, I think of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the Open Infrastructure Foundation. You're wearing your soul pin. I talk a little bit of our handsome How rentable plays across these other communities, which are, you know, very much mixture of the vendors and the end users. >>Well, I mean and will certainly had Sorry. Are you asking about how Ansel is relating to those other communities? Okay, Yeah, because I'm all about that. I mean, we certainly had a long standing sort of, ah fan base over in the open stacks slash open infrastructure foundation land. Most of the deployment tools for all of you know, all the different ways. So many ways to deploy open stack. A lot of them wound up settling on Ansel towards the end of time. You know, that community sort of matured, and, you know, there's a lot of periods of experimentation and, you know, that's one of the things is something's live. Something's didn't but the core parts of what you actually need to make a cloud or, you know, basically still there. Um And then we also have a ton of modules, actually unanswerable, that, you know, help people to operationalize all their open stack cloud stuff. Just like we have modules for AWS and Google Cloud and Azure and whoever else I'm leaving out this week as far as the C N. C f stuff goes, I mean again, we've seen a lot of you know how to get this thing up and running. Turns out Cooper Daddy's is not particularly easy to get up and running. It's even more complicated than a cloud sometimes, because it also assumes you've got a cloud of some sort already. And I like working on our thing. It's I can actually use it. It's pretty cool. Um, cube spray on. Then A lot of the other projects also have, you know, things that are related to Ansel. Now there's the answer. Will operator stuff? I don't know if you want to touch on that, but >>yeah, uh, we're working on. We know one of the big questions is ah, how do answerable, uh, and open shift slash kubernetes work together frequently and in sort of kubernetes land Open shift land. You want to keep his much as you can on the cluster. Lots of operations on the cluster. >>Sometimes you got >>to talk to things outside of the cluster, right? You got to set up some networking stuff, or you gotta go talk to an S three bucket. There's always something some storage thing. As much as you try to get things in a container land, there's all there's always legacy stuff. There's always new stuff, maybe edge stuff that might not all be part of your cluster. And so one of the things we're working on is making it easier to use answerable as part of your operator structure, to go and manage some of those things, using the operator framework that's already built into kubernetes and >>again, more complexity out there. >>Well, and and the thing is, we're great glue. Answerable is such great glue, and it's accessible to so many people and as the moon. As we move away from monolithic code bases to micro service's and vastly spread out code basis, it's not like the complexity goes away. The complexity simply moves to the relationship between the components and answerable. It's excellent glue for helping to manage those relationships between. >>Who doesn't like a glue layer >>everyone, if it's good and easy to understand, even better, >>the glue layers key guys, Thanks for coming on. Sharing your insights. Thank you so much for a quick minute to give a quick plug for the community. What's up? Stats updates. Quick projects Give a quick plug for what's going on the community real quick. >>You go first. >>We're big. We're 67 >>snow. It was number six. Number seven was kubernetes >>right. Number six out of 96 million projects on Get Hub. So lots of contributors. Lots of energy. >>Anytime. I tried to cite a stat, I find that I have to actually go and look it up. And I was about to sight again. >>So active, high, high numbers of people activity. What's that mean? You're running the plumbing, so obviously it's it's cloud on premise. Other updates. Projects of the contributor day. What's next, what's on the schedule. >>We're looking to put together our next contributor summit. We're hoping in Europe sometime in the spring, so we've got to get that on the plate. I don't know if we've announced the next answer will fast yet >>I know that happens tomorrow. So don't Don't really don't >>ruin that for everybody. >>Gradual ages on the great community. You guys done great. Work out in the open sores opened business. Open everything these days. Can't bet against open. >>But again, >>I wouldn't bet against open. >>We're here. Cube were open. Was sharing all the data here in Atlanta with the interviews. I'm John for his stupid men. Stayed with us for more after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! Covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back, live here on theCube, as we continue our coverage here of Red Hat Summit, along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls. It's great to have you here, in one of America's great cities! We're in Boston, Massachusetts, for day one of the three-day conference. And we're now joined with Denise Dumas, who is with Red Hat, and working on the RHEL 8 release that just became, I guess, available today, right? >> Today! >> Huge news! >> Yes! >> I have to first of compliment you on rocking these Red Hat red earrings. And then I look down below you've got the Red Hat sneakers on too, so you are company-branded >> Absolutely. >> up and down, literally, from head-to-toe. >> I'm very proud of the earrings, because some of the support guys made them up on their 3D printer back at the office. >> John: How cool is that? >> I love it. >> Now we had Stefanie Chiras on a little bit earlier, and we were talking about RHEL 8 and all that came with that, and we talked about the deeper dive we're gonna take with you a little bit later on, now we're at that moment. Just first off, in general, how do you feel when something like this finally gets out of the beta stage, gets moved into a much more active space, and now it's available to the marketplace? >> It's like fresh air, right? >> Thrilled. >> Oh, thrilled. Well, you know, and in a way, it's almost an anti-climax, because we're working on 8.1 already, and we're talking about RHEL 9, but this is just such an opportunity to take a moment, especially for so many of the RHEL engineering and QE team who are wandering around the summit, and for us all to just kind of say, (sighs) it's out. It's out, let's see if they like it, I hope they do. But you know, we've been working with so many of the customers and partners through the High Touch Beta Program, 40,000 downloads of the beta, and it has been tremendous feedback. We've been really pleased to see how many people are willing to pick it up and experiment with it, and tell us what they like and what they don't like. >> So Denise, it's always great to hear the customers, but take a second and celebrate that internal work, 'cause so much code, so many engineers, years worth of planning and coding that go into this, so give us a little but of a look behind the curtain, if you would. >> Well, you know so much community as well, right, because, like everything else that Red Hat does, it's totally Open Source. So, many communities feed into Fedora, and Fedora feeds into RHEL, so we took Fedora 28, and pulled it in, and then did a lot more work on it, to try to move it into, this year, we've done the distro differently. There's a core kernel, the noodles, you know, and then there are the application streams. So we've done a lot of work to separate out the two types of package that make up RHEL, so that we can spin the application streams faster. That's where things like developer tools, and language runtimes, databases, the things that are more aimed at developers, where a ten-year life cycle is not a natural for those, right, and yet the core of RHEL, the kernel, you rely on that, we're gonna support it for ten years, but you need your application streams to keep the developers happy. So we tried to make the admin side happy, and the developer side happy. >> All right so, as Vice President of Software Engineering, your team had, certainly, its focuses along this way. >> Denise: Oh, yeah. And dealing with, I guess, the complexities that you were, was there maybe a point in the process where you had an uh-oh moment, or, I'm just curious, because it's not always smooth sailing, right, you run into speed bumps, and some times there're barriers, they're not just bumps, but in terms of what you were trying to enable, and what your vision was to get there, talk about that journey from the engineering side of the equation, and maybe the hiccups you had to deal with along the way. >> So, RHEL 8 has been interesting because in the course of putting the product together, the RHEL organization went through our own digital transformation. So just like our customers have been moving to become more agile, the RHEL engineering team, and our partners in QE, and our partners in support, have worked together to deliver the operating system in a much more agile way. I mean, did you ever think you would hear agile and operating system in the same breath, right, it's like, wow. So that has been an interesting process, and a real set of challenges, because it's meant that people have had to change work habits that have served them well for many, many years. It's a different world. So we've been very fortunate to take people through a lot of changes, they've been very flexible. But there have been some times when it's just been too much too fast, like (gasps), And so it's like, everybody take a deep breath, okay, will do. You know, a couple of weeks, we'll consolidate. It's been a really interesting process. Clearly the kernel, so we've got the 4.18 kernel, and the kernel comes in and we have to understand what the kernel configuration is gonna be. And that can be a lengthy process, because it means you have to understand, when you pull a kernel out of the upstream some of the features are pretty solid, some are maybe less solid. We have to make an educated call about what's ready to go and what's not. So figuring out the kernel configuration can take a while. We do that with our friends in the performance team. And so every inch of the way, we build it, we see how the performance looks, maybe we do some tweaking, change that lock, everything we do goes back upstream, to make the upstream kernel better. So that, as well, has been an interesting process, because there's a lot of change. We're really proud of the performance in RHEL 8, we think that it's a significant improvement in many different areas. We've got the Shack and Larry Show tomorrow, we'll talk all the way through performance, but that's been a big differentiator, I think. >> All right so, Denise, security, absolutely is at top of mind always? >> Denise: Always. >> Some updates in RHEL 8, maybe if you walk us through security and some of the policy changes. >> Yeah, we bake security in, right, we have a secure supply chain, and, talk about difficult things for RHEL 8, right, every package that comes in, we totally refresh everything from upstream. But when they come in, we have to inspect all the crypto, we have to run them through security scans, vulnerability scanners, we've got three different vulnerability scanners that we're using, we run them through penetration testing, so there's a huge amount of work that comes just to inherit all that from the upstream. But in addition to that, we put a lot of work into making sure that, well, our crypto has to be FIP certified, right, which means you've got to meet standards. We also have work that's gone in to make sure that you can enable a security policy consistently across the system, so that no application that you load on can violate your security policy. We've got nftables in there, new firewalling, network-bound disk encryption, that actually, it kind of ties in with a lot of the system management work that we've done. So a thing that I think differentiates RHEL 8 is we put a lot of focus on making it easy to use on day one, and easy to manage day two. It's always been interesting, you know, our customers have been very very technical. They understand how to build their golden images, they understand how to fine-tweak everything. But it's becoming harder and harder to find that level of Linux expertise. I'll vouch for that. And also, once you have those guys, you don't want to waste their time on things that could be automated. And so we've done a lot of work with the management tooling, to make sure that the daily tasks are much easier, that we're integrated better with satellite, we've got Ansible system roles, so if you use Ansible system roles we wanted to make it easy, we wanted to make the operating system easy to configure. So the same work that we do for RHEL 8 itself also goes into Red Hat Enterprise Linux core OS, which will be shipping with OpenShift. So it's a subset of the package set, same kernel. But there it's a very, very focused workload that they're gonna run. So we've been able to do a really opinionated build for RHEL core OS. But for RHEL 8 itself, it's got to be much more general purpose, we've focused on some of our traditional workloads, things like SAP, SAP HANA, SQL Server, so we've done a lot to make sure that those deploy really easily, we've got tuning profiles that help you make sure you've got your system set up to get the right kind of performance. But at the same time, there are lots of other applications out there and we have to do a really good general-purpose operating system. We can be opinionated to some extent, but we have to support much, much wider range. >> Yeah, I mean, Denise, I think back, it's been five years since the last major release. >> Yeah. >> And in the last five years, you know, Red Hat lived a lot of places, but, oh, the diversity of location in today's multi cloud world, with containerization and everything happening there, and from an application standpoint, the machine learning and new modern apps, there's such breadth and depth, seems like in order of magnitude more effort must be needed to support the ecosystem today than it was five years ago. >> Well, it's interesting that you say ecosystem, because you don't play in those places without a tight network of partnerships. So we have lots, of course, hardware partnerships, that's the thing that you think about when you think about the operating system, but we also have lots of partnerships with the software vendors. We've done a lot of work this year with Nvidia, we've supported their one and two systems, right, and we've done a lot to make sure that the workloads are happy. But, increasingly, as ISVs move to containerize their applications, when you containerize you need a user space that you bring along with you, you need your libraries, you need your container runtime. So we've taken a lot of the RHEL user space content, and put it into something that we're calling the Universal Base Image. So, you can rely on that layer of RHEL content when you build your container, put your application into a container. You can rely on that, you can get a stream of updates associated with that, so you can maintain your security, and when you deploy it on top of RHEL, we're with OpenShift, we can actually support it well for you. >> Walk me through the migration process, a little bit, if I'm running 7, and I'm shifting over, and I'm gonna make the move, how does that work? >> Denise: Carefully (laughs). >> Yeah sure, right. (laughs) 'Cause I've got my own concerns, right, I've got-- >> Of course! >> Sure, I've got to think, daily operation, or moment-to-moment operation, I can't afford to have downtime, I've got to make sure it's done in a secure way, I've got to make sure that files aren't corrupted, and things aren't lost, and, so that in itself is a, teeth-gnashing moment I would think, a bit, how do you make that easier for me? >> Yeah, well, especially when you've got 10,000 servers that you need to manage, and you want to start migrating them. You absolutely have to come to tomorrow morning's demo, we're gonna do, it's live! >> It's always tricky, right, live is always, yeah. >> Yeah, but migration, so we've put a lot of effort into migration. We're looking at, it's no good if the applications can't come along, why would you migrate the operating system, you wanna migrate the application. So we've got tooling that examines your environment, and tries to automate as much of it as we can. It looks at your existing environment, it looks at what you're gonna move through, it'll ask a few questions, it's totally driven by plug-in equivalents, we call them actors, and they understand the various, like one understands how to do network configuration, one understands how to replicate your disk configuration. It's integrated with automated backup and rollback, which is a thing that people have wanted for a long time so that we've got a much tighter level of safety there. We won't be able to migrate everything, I'm sure, but, as time goes along we add more and more and more into that utility as we learn more about what matters to customers. >> So, tomorrow morning, live demo. >> Denise: Live demo! >> Get a good night's sleep tonight! >> Denise: Put on your crash helmets! >> Fingers crossed. But thanks for joining us here and talking about the RHEL 8, about the rollout, and we wish you well with that, off to a great start for sure. >> Thank you so much, >> Thank you Denise. >> the RHEL teams are amazing, I love my guys. >> Great, thanks for being with us. >> Denise: Thank you so much. >> We'll continue here at the Red Hat Summit. You're watching theCUBE, live from Boston. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE, covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to the Windy City. We're here with Veritas at the Veritas Solution Day. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. Kevin Bogusz is here, he's a senior information engineer ECECT, a telecommunications company. Kevin, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> So, this event, a very intimate customer event. I don't know if you were at Veritas Vision last year, big, huge customer event, many thousands of people. It's an intimate customer event, 50, 75 people. What're your thoughts on, you know, you took time out of your day to come here, why? What's here for you? >> Get a better understanding what Veritas can do for my company in terms of backups and stuff. We do use Backup Exec in my organization. I've been there for four years, and understanding what you guys do and everything, 'cause we're back when you used to be Symantec. Highs and lows, with tech support, whatever, but other than that, it's been great. >> Okay, so talk about ECECT, what's the company do? >> We are the parent company of NEC out in Japan. We do, in the beginning we developed telecommunications for companies ESP via CISCO, then it came us. for companies ESP via CISCO, then it came us. Before I start they gave me some background terms on how they did stuff. They were absorbed by NECJ and after that we went through a reorganization about a year and half ago. So we have grown from 50 people in a small office in Lincolnshire to having almost four to five offices, from all way out to Washington state all the way out to Cheshire Connecticut >> And you're a service provider or-- >> Not a service provider. We're pretty much a development firm. We're all development, they used to do stuff in Lincolnshire, they used to sell stuff before they got absorbed by NECJ. They used to do the sales, they do the development, they did everything in Lincolnshire, before the big dot com bust, which I was told when I got brought in. After the big dot com bust, it was who was going to take us over, and that became NECJ. >> When you say development, you mean product development? >> Yes. >> Okay great, so in your role as Senior Information Engineer you look after lot of things, but one of them is course is data protection services, right? >> So immediately when I hear four or five remote offices you've got distributed data all over the place, you got to figure out how to protect that. So, how do you protect that? I'm really interested in what's changed. You and I were talking before about, remember the virtualization days. You got to rethink everything, in terms of data protection 'cause we didn't have as many servers physically. Things are changing again, so how have things changed? What's changing and what are the big initiatives you're working on? Paint a picture for us if you would. >> Well, in the beginning, we weren't really heavily into virtualization, now we really have. It's actually has saved on a couple of positions, we actually had to move our ticket system over to virtualization because the servers bought the guy. So we took care of it, so we moved it over to virtualization now we are backing up, with Backup Exec, being able to do either files, folders or do the whole virtual. Also we actually did high availability to provide us with more protection everything else, plus in addition to what we are asking to what Veritas can do for us. >> Okay so virtualization is relatively new for you guys >> Yes. >> And what about Cloud? You hear about things like Cloud and Multicloud, you doing much in Cloud? >> Not that much in Cloud, pretty much it's, if it has to been in the Cloud. We have slowly developed going towards the Cloud and what I've have heard and what I've have seen from my manager. But right now, we're kind of backing off just a little bit, just to see is it approved by the big company or can we go on our own whim, and do that sort of thing. Because I have just developed something a clone of Dropbox. At the organization because Dropbox is not considered legit at my company, so I had to come up with a new idea. >> Okay, so let's talk about some of the other trends, that might be driving your business. DR, presumably is one, everyone talks about well, backup is insurance I hate buying insurance, I want to get more out of it. Even though disaster recovery is insurance too it's important insurance, and so, are you trying to extend your backup and recovery, into disaster recovery? >> Yes, we're-- >> How are you doing that? >> As of right now, we are using Backup Exec. There's a little hiccup here and that I am till trying to figure out how to fix. But we do have the DR between two sites in the beginning that my manager wanted to roll out. And we do, do files, folders, you name it even including virtualizations. We do have a secondary server that does the tapes also which we are trying to transition into the whole DR, So, we can do files and then after that we can do the whole tape. Dump at the tape and then send it off to iron them out. >> Your hiccup is a technical issue? >> It's a technical issue, but other than that, we're trying to figure out, what's causing it. Because one side we'll go from perfectly being okay, but when we try to send trillions of data over to the other thing, it mostly turns to the network almost. But right now we are trying to figure out, is it network based or is it something else. >> What was the challenge, right? 'Cause you've done all this distributing data. And you got to make sure it's all consistent. You know, you think about pointing time copies. When things are distributed all over the place, which is the point and time? So how are you sort of dealing with some of those challenges? >> Ways to dealing with that is pretty much figuring out one prime example trying to deal with that was we had our technical publications people and I got a message on our corporate messenger saying, "I kind of screwed up, can you help me?" And I got go, "What did you do?" I kind of over wrote this, and I'll do is, go through the thing, go through the management thing with Backup Exec going what day was it? I went did this day. How far back do you need to go? Oh I need to go about a month. Okay, here you go. >> And so when you do a recovery like that, how do you validate that the data is consistent with what the business user wants it? It's the business user's responsibility presumably. They have to look at it and say, okay, Kevin thank you. You got me what I needed or can you back a little further? >> That has happened too. What I do with my people at work is that especially with the technical publication people is I ask them okay, what happened on this day? Oh, I overwrote this. Okay, from that point in the past, what haven't you written over? and how far can I go back? Oh you can go back this far. Like, okay, here's your date range, I gave you these two files. Oh, yes please recover it, and I go okay, I got to pull on these files and folders, here you go. >> So what are you looking for in a backup software? I did a little sort of preview upfront and the market's exploding. >> Yes >> You seeing some companies raise hundreds of millions of dollars, obviously Veritas is a leader along with three or four of others. They have most of the market. Everybody wants a piece of that action. So, I'm sure you're getting knocks on the door everyday. You are getting inundated emails, switch to us. So what do you look for in a data protection vendor? Why Veritas? Are you are sticking with those guys? Are you are thinking about switching? Maybe give us some color there. >> Right now, with Veritas we have had... before I started they use to be with Symantec and then Symantec got brought up by Veritas, which what happened. So they've been with this company, in the past why I have been told is, they've been with Symantec since Backup Exec 14. Like way before the Backup Exec 2015, the latest one just came out. We been looking at Veeam. At that time Veeam was looking as, all that we do is virtuals. Okay, that kind of helps us but our main thing is if something bad happens, can you do files for us? No. And I've been inundated with them through TDWC say, Oh, so and so can help you, I'm like, "Do you guys do virtuals?" Yeah! So, what has changed? I've kind of stacked with Backup Exec just because I used over the four years I've been here. I used that before in a previous company. So I have some background but other than that, I've seen a thing where, I've been forced with some of the applications at work I've have to gone to Open-source. I have to gone to Winbond 2, I've been going to Red Hat Linuz Enterprise. And the main concern that I have is, yes we can do Oracle and everything else for SQL. What about my SQL Server? Oh we don't do that. So I have to do a virtual machine back up on the virtual. >> So we were talking to Veritas technical people they claim, test this with the customer. They claim they can do a lot of different used cases you mentioned MySQL, they talk about being able to do NoSQL and other unstructured data, where as some others might have to partner with a specialist. Do find that that Veritas actually has that kind of harden stack across lot of used cases? Or would you like them to do more? >> I would like them do more, because I gave them one scenario, where we've actually used one of our test clients. We do test clients type of stuff called TestRail by Gurock. And I've asked them multiple times I have big SQL database and we're bound to. How can I back that up? And I have asked multiple times. Oh, all we do is Oracle. And I go, I understand my SQL is opensource but I know there's post cres. Post cres is like my SQL, it's like a fork of it but at least, give me that ability. >> You mentioned you're a Red Hat customer as well as others but what do you think of IBM acquisition? Announced acquisition of Red Hat does it make you nervous? >> It doesn't make me nervous, it's you're going back to the days of you know the big IBM, we used to be big and they started branching out, selling off stuff to Lenova, all that type of stuff. I just see them going, oh crap! We kind of sold off bits and pieces here. We're going to come back. >> Dave: Shrink to grow. But as a customer of Red Hat, you're not concerned? You feel that Red Hat's going to stay pure? >> If they keep the status quo of that they have done and everything, don't mess with anything, anything like that be able to have like consumers play with what there's out there like Fedora, go right ahead. Do whatever you want to do. If you got the money, the burn, go ahead and do more development and stuff. I would love to see IBM do more with Red Hat. >> So it's awesome to have a practitioner on, who knows where all their skeletons are buried but you still sticking with Veritas is from what I am understanding. I'll give you the last word, final thoughts. >> Veritas to me in a nutshell, they keep on innovating what they have been doing and making the product better, with what they've been doing through the previous versions, that I have dealt with. I think they're going to, in my opinion, they will probably out beat Veeam in terms of back up stuff. 'Cause I know they are the two big players. As Veritas and Veeam are doing the back ups and right now Veeam is probably playing catch up because ever since they told us, "Oh, we are do files." Instead of doing just virtuals. >> Well, Kevin thanks very much for coming on theCUBE, It's great to have you. >> You too. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody, we will be back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching theCube from Chicago. Right back. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Manhattan, it's theCube, covering AWS Summit, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to the Big Apple as we continue our coverage here on theCube of AWS Summit 2017. We're at the Javits Center. We're in midtown. A lot of hustle and bustle outsie and inside there, good buzz on the show floor with about 5,000 strong attending and some 20,000 registrants also for today's show. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, and glad to have you here on theCube. And Dustin Kirkland now joins us. He's at Ubuntu, the product and strategy side of things at Canonical, and Dustin, good to see you back on theCube. >> Thank you very much. >> You just threw a big number out at us when we were talking off camera. I'll let you take it from there, but it shows you about the presence, you might say, of Ubuntu and AWS, what that nexus is right now. >> Ubuntu easily leads as the operating system in Amazon. About 70%, seven zero, 70% of all instances running in Amazon right now are running Ubuntu. And that's actually, despite the fact that Amazon have their own Amazon Linux and there are other, Windows, Rails, SUSE, Debian, Fedora, other alternatives. Ubuntu still represents seven out of 10 workloads in Amazon running right now. >> John: Huge number. >> So, Dustin, maybe give us a little insight as to what kind of workloads you're seeing. How much of this was people that, Ubuntu has a great footprint everywhere and therefore it kind of moved there. And how much of it is new and interesting things, IOT and machine learning and everything like that, where you also have support. >> When you're talking about that many instances, that's quite a bit of boat, right? So if you look at just EC2 and the two types of workloads, there are the long-running workloads. The workloads that are up for many months, years in some cases. I met a number of customers here this week that are running older versions of Ubuntu like 12.04 which are actually end of life, but as a customer of Canonical we continue providing security updates. So we have a product called Extended Security Maintenance. There's over a million instances of Ubuntu 12.04 which are already end of life but Canonical can continue providing security updates, critical security updates. That's great for the long-running workloads. The other thing that we do for long-running workloads are kernel live patches. So we're able to actually fix vulnerabilities in the Linux kernel without rebooting, using entirely upstream and open source technology to do that. So for those workloads that stay up for months or years, the combination of Extended Security Maintenance, covering it for a very long time, and the kernel live patch, ensuring that you're able to patch those vulnerabilities without rebooting those systems, it's great for hosting providers and some enterprise workloads. Now on the flip side, you also see a lot of workloads that are spikey, right. Workloads that come and go in bursts. Maybe they run at night or in the morning or just whenever an event happens. We see a lot of Ubuntu running there. It's really, a lot of that is focused on data and machine learning, artificial intelligence workloads, that run in that sort of bursty manner. >> Okay, so it was interesting, when I hear you talk about some things that have been running for a bunch of years, and on the other side of the spectrum is serverless and the new machine learning stuff where it tends to be there, what's Canonical doing there? What kind of exciting, any of the news, Macey, Glue, some of these other ones that came out, how much do those fit into the conversations you're having? >> Sure, they all really fit. When we talk about what we're doing to tune Ubuntu for those machine learning workloads, it really starts with the kernel. So we actually have an AWS-optimized Linux kernel. So we've taken the Ubuntu Linux kernel and we've tuned it, working with the Amazon kernel engineers, to ensure that we've carved out everything in that kernel that's not relevant inside of an Amazon data center and taken it out. And in doing so, we've actually made the kernel 15% smaller, which actually reduces the security footprint and the storage footprint of that kernel. And that means smaller downloads, smaller updates, and we've made it boot 30% faster. We've done that by adding support, turning on, configuring on some parameters that enable virtualization or divert IO drivers or specifically the Amazon drivers to work really well. We've also removed things like floppy disk drives and Bluetooth drivers, which you'll never find in a virtual machine in Amazon. And when you take all of those things in aggregate and you remove them from the kernel, you end up with a much smaller, better, more efficient package. So that's a great starting point. The other piece is we've ensured that the latest and greatest graphics adapters, the GPUs, GPGPUs from Invidia, that the experienced on Ubuntu out of the box just works. It works really well, and well at scale. You'll find almost all machine learning workloads are drastically improved inside of GPGPU instances. And for the dollar, you're able to compute sometimes hundreds or thousands of times more efficiently than a fewer CPU type workload. >> You're talking about machine learning, but on the artificial intelligence side of life, a lot of conversation about that at the keynotes this morning. A lot of good services, whatever, again, your activity in that and where that's going, do you think, over the next 12, 16 months? >> Yes, so artificial intelligence is a really nice place where we see a lot of Ubuntu, mainly because the nature of how AI is infiltrating our lives. It has these two sides. One side is at the edge, and those are really fundamentally connected devices. And for every one of those billions of devices out there, there are necessarily connections to an instance in the cloud somewhere. So if we take just one example, right, an autonomous vehicle. That vehicle is connected to the internet. Sometimes well, when you're at home, parked in the garage or parked at Whole Foods, right? But sometimes it's not. You're in the middle of the desert out in West Texas. That autonomous vehicle needs to have a lot of intelligence local to that vehicle. It gets downloaded opportunistically. And what gets downloaded are the results of that machine learning, the results of that artificial intelligence process. So we heard in the keynotes quite a bit about data modeling, right? Data modeling means putting a whole bunch of data into Amazon, which Amazon has made it really easy to do with things like Snowball and so forth. Once the data is there, then the big GPGPU instances crunch that data and the result is actually a very tight, tightly compressed bit of insight that then gets fed to devices. So an autonomous vehicle that every single night gets a little bit better by tweaking its algorithms, when to brake, when to change lanes, when to make a left turn safely or a right turn safely, those are constantly being updated by all the data that we're feeding that. Now why I said that's important from an Ubuntu perspective is that we find Ubuntu in both of those locations. So we open this by saying that Ubuntu is the leading operating system inside of Amazon, representing 70% of those instances. Ubuntu is, across the board, right now in 100% of the autonomous vehicles that are running today. So Uber's autonomous vehicle, the Tesla vehicles, the Google vehicles, a number of others from other manufacturers are all running Ubuntu on the CPU. There's usually three CPUs in a smart car. The CPU that's running the autonomous driving engine is, across the board, running Ubuntu today. The fact that it's the same OS makes it, makes life quite nice for the developers. The developers who are writing that software that's crunching the numbers in the cloud and making the critical real-time decisions in the vehicle. >> You talk about autonomous vehicles, I mean, it's about a car in general, thousands of data points coming in, in continual real time. >> Dustin: Right. >> So it's just not autonomous -- >> Dustin: Right. >> operations, right? So are you working in that way, diagnostics, navigation, all those areas? >> Yes, so we catch as headlines are a lot of the hobbyist projects, the fun stuff coming out of universities or startup space. Drones and robots and vacuum cleaners, right? And there's a lot of Ubuntu running there, anything from Raspberry Pis to smart appliances at home. But it's actually, I think, really where those artificially intelligent systems are going to change our lives, is in the industrial space. It's not the drone that some kids are flying around in the park, it's the drone that's surveying crops, that's coming to understand what areas of a field need more fertilizer or less water, right. And that's happening in an artificially intelligent way as smarter and smarter algorithms make its way onto those drones. It's less about the running Pandora and Spotify having to choose the right music for you when you're sitting in your car, and a lot more about every taxicab in the city taking data and analytics and understanding what's going on around them. It's a great way to detect traffic patterns, potentially threats of danger or something like that. That's far more industrial and less intresting than the fun stuff, you know, the fireworks that are shot off by a drone. >> Not nearly as sexy, right? It's not as much fun. >> But that's where the business is, you know. >> That's right. >> One of the things people have been looking at is how Amazon's really maturing their discussion of hyrid cloud. Now, you said that data centers, public cloud, edge devices, lots of mobile, we talked about IOT and everything, what do you see from customers, what do you think we're going to see from Amazon going forward to build these hybrid architectures and how does that fit in to autonomous vehicles and the like? >> So in the keynote we saw a couple of organizations who were spotlighted as all-in on Amazon, and that's great. And actually almost all of those logos that are all-in on Amazon are all-in on Amazon on Ubuntu and that's great. That's a very small number of logos compared to the number of organizations out there that are actually hybrid. Hybrid is certainly a ramp to being all-in but for quite a bit of the industry, that's the journey and the destination, too, in fact. That there's always going to be some amount compute that happens local and some amount of compute that happens in the cloud. Ubuntu helps provide an important portability layer. Knowing something runs well on Ubuntu locally, it's going to run well on Ubuntu in Amazon, or vise versa. The fact that it runs well in Amazon, it will also run well on Ubuntu locally. Now we have a support -- >> Yeah, I was just curious, you talked about some of the optimization you made for AWS. >> Dustin: Right. >> Is that now finding its way into other environments or do we have a little bit of a fork? >> We do, it does find it's way back into other environments so, you know, the Amazon hypervisors are usually Xen-based, although there are some interesting other things coming from Amazon there. Typically what we find on-prem is usually more KVM or Vmware based. Now, most of what goes into that virtual kernel that we build for Amazon actually applies to the virtual kernel that we built for Ubuntu that runs in Xen and Vmware and KVM. There's some subtle differences. Some, a few things that we've done very specifically for Amazon, but for the most part it's perfectly compatible all the way back to the virtual machines that you would run on-prem. >> Well, Dustin, always a pleasure, >> Yeah. >> to have you hear on theCube. >> Thanks, John. >> You're welcome back any time. >> All right. >> We appreciate the time and wish you the best of luck here the rest of the day, too. >> Great. >> Good deal. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be with us. Dustin Kirkland from Canonical joining us here on theCube. Back with more from AWS Summit 2017 here in New York City right after this.

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)