>>Hey everyone, it's Vegas. Welcome back. We know you've been watching all day. We appreciate that. We always love being able to bring you some great content on the Cube Live from AWS Reinvented 22. Lisa Martin here with Paul Gill. And Paul, we've had such a great event. We've, I think we've done nearly 70 interviews since we started on the Cube on >>Monday night. I believe we just hit 70. Yeah, we just hit 70. You must feel like you've done half of >>Them. I really do. But we've been having great conversations. There's so much innovation going on at aws. Nothing slowed them down during the pandemic. We love also talking about the innovation, the flywheel that is their partner ecosystem. We're gonna have a great conversation about that >>Next. And as we've said, going back to day one, the energy of the show is remarkable. And here we are, we're getting late in the afternoon on day two, and there's just as much activity, just as much energy out there as, as the beginning of the first day. I have no doubt day three will be the >>Same. I agree. There's been no slowdown. We've got two guests here. We're gonna have a great conversation. Chuck Kubota joins us, senior Director of Cloud Services, GTM at Red Hat. Great to have you on the program. And Ted Stanton, global head of Sales, red Hat at IBM at aws. Welcome. >>Thanks for having us. >>How's the show going so far for you guys? >>It's a blur. Is it? Oh my gosh. >>Don't they all >>Blur? Well, yes, yes. I actually like last year a bit better. It was half the size. Yeah. And a lot easier to get around, but this is back to normal, so >>It is back to normal. Yeah. And and Ted, we're hearing north of 50,000 in-person attendees. I heard a, something I think was published. I heard the second hand over like 300,000 online attendees. This is maybe the biggest one we ever had. >>Yeah, yeah, I would agree. And frankly, it's my first time here, so I am massively impressed with the overall show, the meeting with partners, the meeting with customers, the announcements that were made, just fantastic. And >>If you remember back to two years ago, there were a lot of questions about whether in-person conferences would ever return and the volume that we used to see them. And that appears to be >>The case. I think we, I think we've answered, I think AWS has answered that for us, which I'm very pleased to see. Talk about some of those announcements. Ted. There's been so much that that's always one of the things we know and love about re men is there's slew of announcements. You were saying this morning, Paul, and then keynote, you lost, you stopped counting after I >>Lost 15, I lost count for 15. I think it was over 30 announcements this morning alone >>Where IBM and Red Hat are concern. What are some of the things that you are excited about in terms of some of the news, the innovation, and where the partnership is going? >>Well, definitely where the partnership is going, and I think even as we're speaking right now, is a keynote going on with Aruba, talking about some of the partners and the way in which we support partners and the new technologies and the new abilities for partners to take advantage of these technologies to frankly delight our customers is really what most excites me. >>Chuck, what about you? What's going on with Red Hat? You've been there a long time. Sales, everything, picking up customers, massively transforming. What are some of the things that you're seeing and that you're excited >>About? Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, as customers have, you know, years ago discovered it's not competitively advantageous to manage their own data centers in most cases. So they would like to, you know, give that responsibility to Amazon. We're seeing them move further up the stack, right? So that would be more beyond the operating system, the application platforms like OpenShift. And now we have a managed application platform built on OpenShift called Red Out OpenShift service on AWS or Rosa. And then we're even further going up the stack with that with, we just announced this week that red out OpenShift data science is available in the AWS marketplace, runs on Rosa, helps break the land speed record to getting those data models out there that are so important to make, you know, help organizations become more, much more data driven to remain competitive themselves. >>So talk about Rosa and how it differs from previous iterations of, of OpenShift. I mean, you had, you had an online version of OpenShift several years ago. What's different about Rosa? >>Yeah, so the old OpenShift online that was several years old, right? For one thing, wasn't a joint partnership between Amazon and Red Hat. So we work together, right? Very closely on this, which is great. Also, the awesome thing about Rosa, you know, if you think about like OpenShift for, for, as a matter of fact, Amazon is the number one cloud that OpenShift runs on, right? So a lot of those customers want to take advantage of their committed spins, their EDPs, they want one bill. And so Rosa comes through the one bill comes through the marketplace, right? Which is, which is totally awesome. Not only that or financially backing OpenShift with a 99.95% financially backed sla, right? We didn't have that before either, right? >>When you say financially backed sla, >>What do you mean? That means that if we drop below 99.95% of availability, we're gonna give you some money back, right? So we're really, you know, for lack of better words, putting our money where our mouth is. Absolutely right. >>And, and some of the key reasons that we even work together to build Rosa was frankly we've had a mirror of customers and virtually every single region, every single industry been using OpenShift on AWS for years, right? And we listened to them, they wanted a more managed version of it and we worked very closely together. And what's really great about Rosa too is we built some really fantastic integrations with some of the AWS native services like API gateway, Amazon rds, private link, right? To make it very simple and easy for customers to get started. We talked a little bit about the marketplace, but it's also available just on the AWS console, right? So customers can get started in a pay as you go fashion start to use it. And if they wanna move into a more commitment, more of a set schedule of payments, they can move into a marketplace private offer. >>Chuck, talk about, how about Rosen? How is unlocking the power of technology like containers Kubernetes for customers while dialing down some of the complexity that's >>There? Yeah, I mean if you think about, you know, kind of what we did, you know, earlier on, right? If you think about like virtualization, how it dialed down the complexity of having to get something rack, get a blade rack, stack cable and cooled every time you wanted to deploy new application, right? So what we do is we, our message is this, we want developers to focus on what matters most. And that's build, deploy, and running applications. Most of our customers are not in the business of building app platforms. They're not in the business of building platforms like banks, I, you know, financials, right? Government, et cetera. Right? So what we do is we allow those developers that are, enable those developers that know Java and Node and springing and what have you, just to keep writing what they know. And then, you know, I don't wanna get too technical here, but get pushed through way and, and OpenShift takes care of the rest, builds it for them, runs it through a pipeline, a CICD pipeline, goes through all the testing and quality gates and things like that, deploys it, auto wires it up, you know, to monitoring which is what you need. >>And we have all kinds of other, you know, higher order services and an ecosystem around that. And oh, by the way, also plugging into and taking advantage of the services like rds, right? If you're gonna write an application, a tradition, a cloud native application on Amazon, you're probably going to wanna run it in Rosa and consuming one of those databases, right? Like RDS or Aurora, what have you. >>And I, and I would say it's not even just the customers. We have a variety of ecosystem partners, both of our partners leveraging it as well. We have solos built their executive management system that they go ahead and turn and sell to their customers, streamlines data and collects data from a variety of different sources. They decided, you know, it's better to run that on top of Rosa than manage OpenShift themselves. We've seen IBM restack a lot of their software, you know, to run on top of Rose, take advantage of that capabilities. So lots of partners as well as customers are taking advantage of fully managed stack of that OpenShift that that turnkey capabilities that it provides >>For, for OpenShift customers who wanna move to Rose, is that gonna be a one button migration? Is that gonna be, can they run both environments simultaneously and migrate over time? What kind of tools are you giving them? >>We have quite, we have quite a few migration tools such as conveyor, right? That's one of our projects, part of our migration application toolkit, right? And you know, with those, there's also partners like Trilio, right? Who can help move, you know, applications back 'em up. In fact, we're working on a pretty cool joint go to market with that right now. But generally speaking, the OpenShift experience that the customers that we have know and love and those who have never used OpenShift either are coming to it as well via Rosa, right? The experience is primarily the same. You don't have to really retrain your people, right? If anything, there's a reduction in operational cost. We increase developer productivity cuz we manage so much of the stack for you. We have SRE site reliability engineers that are backing the platform that proactively get ahead of anything that may go wrong. So maybe you don't even notice if something went wrong, wrong. And then also reactively fixing it if it comes to that, right? So, you know, all those kind of things that your customers are having to do on their own or hire a contractor, a consultant, what have to do Now we benefit from a managed offering in the cloud, right? In Amazon, right? And your developers still have that great experience too, like to say, you know, again, break the land speed record to prod. >>I >>Like that. And, and I would actually say migrations from OpenShift are on premise. OpenShift to Rosa maybe only represents about a third of the customers we have. About another third of the customers is frankly existing AWS customers. Maybe they're doing Kubernetes, do it, the, you know, do it themselves. We're struggling with some of the management of that. And so actually started to lean on top of using Rosa as a better platform to actually build upon their applications. And another third, we have quite a few customers that were frankly new OpenShift customers, new Red Hat customers and new AWS customers that were looking to build that next cloud native application. Lots of in the startup space that I've actually chosen to go with Rosa. >>It's funny you mention that because the largest Rosa consumer is new to OpenShift. Oh wow. Right. That's pretty, that's pretty powerful, right? It's not just for existing OpenShift customers, existing OpenShift. If you're running OpenShift, you know, on EC two, right. Self-managed, there's really no better way to run it than Rosa. You know, I think about whether this is the 10th year, 10 year anniversary of re right? Right. Yep. This is also the 10 year anniversary of OpenShift. Yeah, right. I think it one oh came out about sometime around a week, 10 years ago, right? When I came over to Red Hat in 2015. You know, if you, if you know your Kubernetes history was at July 25th, I think was when Kubernetes ga, July 25th, 2015 is when it g you have >>A good >>Memory. Well I remember those days back then, right? Those were fun, right? The, we had a, a large customer roll out on OpenShift three, which is our OpenShift RE based on Kubernetes. And where do you think they ran Amazon, right? Naturally. So, you know, as you move forward and, and, and OpenShift V four came out, the, reduces the operational complexity and becomes even more powerful through our operator framework and things like that. Now they revolved up to Rosa, right? And again, to help those customers focus on what matters most. And that's the applications, not the containers, not those underlying implementation and technical details while critically important, are not necessarily core to the business to most of our customers. >>Tremendous amount of innovation in OpenShift in a decade, >>Pardon me? >>Tremendous amount of innovation in OpenShift in the >>Last decade. Oh absolutely. And, and and tons more to come like every day. Right. I think what you're gonna see more of is, you know, as Kubernetes becomes more, more and more of the plumbing, you know, I call 'em productive abstractions on top of it, as you mentioned earlier, unlocking the power of these technologies while minimizing, even hiding the complexity of them so that you can just move fast Yeah. And safely move fast. >>I wanna be sure we get to, to marketplaces because you have been, red Hat has made, has really stepped up as commitment to the AWS marketplace. Why are you doing that now and how are, how are the marketplaces evolving as a channel for you? >>Well, cuz our customers want us to be there, right? I mean we, we, we are customer centric, customer first approach. Our customers want to buy through the marketplace. If you're an Amazon, if you're an Amazon customer, it's really easy for you to go procure software through the marketplace and have, instead of having to call up Red Hat and get on paper and write a second check, right? One stop shop one bill. Right? That is very, very attractive to our customers. Not only that, it opens up other ways to buy, you know, Ted mentioned earlier, you know, pay as you go buy the drink pricing using exactly what you need right now. Right? You know, AWS pioneered that, right? That provides that elasticity, you know, one of the core tenants at aws, AWS cloud, right? And we weren't able to get that with the traditional self-managed on Red Hat paper subscriptions. >>Talk a little bit about the go to market, what's, you talked about Ted, the kind of the three tenants of, of customer types. But talk a little bit about the gtm, the joint go to market, the joint engineering, so we get an understanding of how customers engage multiple options. >>Yeah, I mean, so if you think about go to market, you know, and the way I think of it is it's the intersection of a few areas, right? So the product and the product experience that we work together has to be so good that a customer or user, actually many start talk, talking about users now cuz it's self-service has a more than likely chance of getting their application to prod without ever talking to a person. Which is historically not what a lot of enterprise software companies are able to do, right? So that's one of those biggest things we do. We want customers to just be successful, turn it on, get going, be productive, right? At the same time we wanna to position the product in such a way that's differentiating that you can't get that experience anywhere else. And then part of that is ensuring that the education and enablement of our customers and our partners as such that they use the platform the right way to get as much value out of as possible. >>All backed by, you know, a very smart field that ensures that the customer get is making the right decision. A customer success org, this is attached to my org now that we can go on site and team with our customers to make sure that they get their first workloads up as quickly as possible, by the way, on our date, our, our dime. And then SRE and CEA backing that up with support and operational integrity to ensure that the service is always up and available so you can sleep, sleep, sleep well at night. Right? Right. One of our PMs of, of of Rosa, he says, what does he say? He says, Rosa allows organizations, enables organizations to go from 24 7 operations to nine to five innovation. Right? And that's powerful. That's how our customers remain more competitive running on Rosa with aws, >>When you're in customer conversations and you have 30 seconds, what are the key differentiators of the solution that you go boom, boom, boom, and they just go, I get it. >>Well, I mean, my 32nd elevator pitch, I think I've already said, I'll say it again. And that is OpenShift allows you to focus on your applications, build, deploy, and run applications while unlocking the power of the technologies like containers and Kubernetes and hiding or minimizing those complexities. So you can do as fast as possible. >>Mic drop Ted, question for you? Sure. Here we are at the, this is the, I leave the 11th reinvent, 10th anniversary, 11th event. You've been in the industry a long time. What is your biggest takeaway from what's been announced and discussed so far at Reinvent 22, where the AWS and and its partner ecosystem is concerned? If you had 30 seconds or if you had a bumper sticker to put on your DeLorean, what would you say? >>I would say we're continuing to innovate on behalf of our customers, but making sure we bring all of our partners and ecosystems along in that innovation. >>Yeah. I love the customer obsession on both sides there. Great work guides. Congrats on the 10th anniversary of OpenShift and so much evolution, the customer obsession is really clear for both of you guys. We appreciate your time. You're gonna have to come back now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. For our guests and for Paul Gillin. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>> Announcer: theCUBE presents Dell Technologies World brought to you by Dell. >> Welcome back to Dell Tech World 2022. You're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host John Furrier, live event, I would say seven to eight thousand people, really exceeded our expectations. And we're here with Chuck Whitten, who is the co chief operating officer and chief dot connector, I sometimes call him, at Dell Technologies. Chuck, welcome to theCUBE. >> I am thrilled to be here. How great is it to be, you know, back in Las Vegas, seven to eight thousand people here, talking innovation. It's great. >> Yeah, it's like Jeff said this morning, I'm not really thrilled to be in Vegas maybe, but I'm happy to be back live, so yeah. >> It's great to be here. >> Awesome. Okay, the operative phrase is multicloud by default, that's kind of the buzz from your keynote. What do you mean by that? >> Well, look, customers have woken up with multiple clouds you know, multiple public clouds, on-premises clouds, increasingly as the edge becomes much more a reality for a customer, clouds at the edge. And so that's what we mean by multicloud by default. It's not yet been designed strategically. I think our argument yesterday was it can be and it should be, it is a very logical place for architecture to land because ultimately customers want the innovation across all of the hyper scale public clouds. They will see workloads and use cases where they want to maintain an on-premises cloud. On-premises clouds are not going away, I mentioned edge cloud, so it should be strategic. It's just not today. It doesn't work particularly well today, so when we say multicloud by default, we mean that's the state of the world today. Our goal is to bring multicloud by design, as you heard. >> Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with you a hundred percent. We all know multicloud exists. It's by default, it's not going away. It's only going to get more complicated. What are you guys seeing in terms of the customer needs as this becomes more of the strategy plus operations, I want to operationalize multicloud as an abstraction layer, how do you guys see the customer requirements? What problems are they trying to solve? >> Well, look, multicloud by default today are isolated clouds. They don't work together. Your data is siloed. It's locked up and it is expensive to move and make sense of it. So, you know, I think the word you and I were batting around before, this is an interconnected tissue. That's what the world needs. They need the clouds to work together as a single platform. That's the problem that we're trying to solve. And you saw it in some of our announcements here that we are starting to make steps on that journey to make multicloud work together much simpler. >> It's interesting. You mentioned the hyperscalers and all that CapEx investments. Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of a cloud and build on the CapEx and then ultimately have the solutions, machine learning is one area, you see some specialization with the clouds, but you start to see the rise of super clouds, Dave calls them, and that's where you can innovate on a cloud. Then go to the multiple clouds, Snowflake's one, we see a lot of examples of super clouds. >> Project Alpine was another one. I mean, it's early, but it's clearly where you're going. The technology is just starting to come around. I mean, it's real. >> Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of all of the cloud innovation out there? Well, the answer would be, I don't want to do that if I'm going to feel locked up, if it's going to be too expensive. So again, I think Project Alpine's a perfect example of a step on that journey. If you can create a common storage pool, a fabric if you will, that allows you to choose how, where you're going to process your data and store it. And more importantly, give your teams the same M and O tools, the same skillsets, the ability to operate on-premises or in the public clouds. You know, I think ultimately the theme of the last couple days in multicloud for us has been customer choice. We want to give them the choice to operate, how they want to, so they can take advantage of all those cloud services. >> Real quick. Where does that innovation go from that Alpine Project? Because that's software defined, and I believe that's all your IP to all Dell technologies IP. >> It is, yeah. >> So that factors in, so is that going to make the hardware more innovative? Is it going to be more application specific? Where do you see that going? >> Well, look, our, you know, putting our file block and object storage into the public clouds just gives them choice on taking advantage of enterprise class storage software. You know, you saw in our announcements today, we're not stopping the innovation in our core arrays and hardware. And in fact, the theme today was software innovation. I think we announced five hundred different software updates across power flex, power max and power store. So look, we're going to continue to innovate across the storage portfolio. Now we're giving customers the choice. Hey, you want it in the public cloud? That's what Project Alpine will let you do. >> Michael had a smile on a, I won't say a spring in his step, because he was sitting in that chair, but he was smiling about the market share numbers on that, so pretty impressive. You guys got a good commanding lean there. The super cloud thing, back to that concept, Snowflake is we consider super cloud. They took their IP, put it on a hyperscaler, differentiated themselves, have great value and scale and they're running away with it. It looks like at this point, I mean, you've got data breaks, and you've got Redshift in there and other stuff, but as a concept that's working, and now they're on multiple clouds. How do you see that super cloud connecting with Snowflake, because you guys are building a little Snowflake connected. It's one of the big announcements here is Snowflake and Dell. >> Yeah. >> So can you talk about that? >> It was probably the one that got the most excitement from customers in the last day. And so look, you said it well, Snowflake, you know, one of the most exciting companies in the data space right now, and a vision from that company to say, hey, let's make the consumption of data as simple as cloud operating models have made the consumption of infrastructure. Well we share that vision and love that vision but we're each coming at it from different parts of the stack, right? So we're coming at it from storage up to data, they're coming data management down to data. It's a perfect match of our capabilities. So that, the announcements we made in our partnership, we're going to start with two use cases that our customers have been asking for. You know, the first is the ability to buy directionally copy data from our storage to Snowflake's data cloud. That's exciting, but the more exciting one that created the buzz is, if you don't want to move your data to the public cloud, Snowflake only operates in the public cloud today, we're now giving the opportunity to access their data services on-premises. And that's the excitement from customers that have said, hey, look, I want to take advantage of Snowflake's capabilities, but for regulatory or security reasons, I'm not doing that today. This is a groundbreaker. >> Well, it's the interesting thing, because, you know, as many people know, Snowflake requires you to put their data in their cloud, in Snowflake format, this is the first example of non-native data being accessed into the Snowflake cloud. >> Exactly right, exactly right. So, you know, again for customers that say, I just can't do it, I cannot move my data, now they have the option. It's the first time Snowflake has collaborated with an on-premises infrastructure player. >> How'd that deal come about? >> Well, it started as all great deals in our business do, Michael, to the top. So it was a, you know, and then it's been our teams working together closely, always, you know alongside our customers, because that customer feedback of I want to take advantage of Snowflake's capabilities, you know, it's been, we've been incubating it for a few months now and it was great to bring it out on stage yesterday. >> I mean, it makes a lot of sense. You connected dots so to speak. When you look at what Michael was saying, these compute hubs, towers for 5G to >> Yep. >> Small edges and big edges and data centers all coming together, really key value parts of how data's going to be moving around, it's not just storage, it's data as code. It's a big part of >> Incredible, yeah. I mean, look, this is, that was the, the start of the theme yesterday. Look, the great unsolved problems in infrastructure right now is data is everywhere. It's sprawling. It is less secure than we would like. Help, and help me make sense of multicloud. >> I'd love to get your reaction real quick while I got you up here, because data science is a well known practice. >> Yeah. >> There's been the rise of a hot persona, that seems to be, you know, growing in numbers, but it's a scarce skill that's data engineering. Because the data's not just doing visualizations, there's a lot of architectural work being done to solve that strategy problem. What's your reaction to this new data engineering at the scale that we're talking about? >> Yeah, I mean, it's a space I'm just learning about to be honest with you, data engineering, but look, part of what we observe is, it takes a lot of calories from organizations to get data in a place where you can make sense of it and make decisions. And whether that's data scientists spending too much time cleaning or the advent, as you said, of data engineering to create the architectures, to help make that decision. Look, there's a lot of work that goes into that. It would be great over time to automate that. I think that's also the next great stuff on the journey. >> You know, Chuck, when I did the intro, I really didn't set it up that well, because you know people, oh, hey, here's the new guy, but you have a lot of experience with Dell. You've been a consultant to the company for a long, long time. Tell us a little bit about that. I'm interested in what you see as your greatest strengths that you bring to Dell. >> Yeah, well, as you said, look, I am the new guy-ish, I think it's been eight months. I don't know how long I can continue to use that as the excuse, but I had worked with Dell for over a decade as a consultant previously at Bain Company. So, you know, look, my background is as a strategist and I did lots of work in sort of M and A and private acuity, and so that's my background, I'm your sort of classic MBA, whose spent a decade in technology and a decade alongside Jeff Clark and Michael in the transformation of the company. So I hope I bring the right sort of outsider's but insider's perspective to, you know, to the party, if you will. But you know, I've certainly learned a lot in the last eight months, as you get alongside and inside the machine at Dell. >> So irrespective of the financial magic. >> I think I know what question he's going to ask. >> Irrespective of the financial magic that Dell did with the VMware skin, as a consultant, one could have gone through a mental exercise of saying, hey, what about, you know, spinning it in, because you got this great software asset. Everybody wants software marginal economics. Okay, the decision was made and now we're onto the future. That obviously has an impact on margins and gross margins and everything else. So, I guess as a consultant, you turn that into opportunity. >> Yeah. >> Right. So where is that opportunity? How do you feel about, how do you think about, that really hardware, heavy hardware exposure, and where you want to go in the future? >> Well, look, I think we, that's what we've been been talking about the last couple of days. So, you know, the VMware spinoff was a moment in which the world looked at us and I think asked the question, you did, you know, what are you, right? Are you a legacy hardware company or where you're going? But the reality of the world is, it's a multicloud world, so we are, it was a signal also to the world that we're not a VMware stack competing against other cloud stacks. We are first and best with VMware. They are still our most strategic partner, but we work with all the hyperscalers and it's a big world that is becoming multicloud. So strategically speaking as that becomes the reality of infrastructure and importantly as data explodes at the edge, you know, we're perfectly positioned as a company. That's the strategy, we like to say these trends are coming our way. It's never been a better time, honestly, to be the leader in infrastructure, and the leader in client devices, all the way to sort of the core data center in the cloud. >> How do you think about, you have quite an observation space, as you know, a long time, you know, Bain consultant. How do you think about the skillsets required to make that transition? >> Yeah, absolutely. Well look, we think a lot about it, right? Because certainly we have a lot of the native skills we need to win in the data era as the leader in storage and the leader in infrastructure, you know, we secure more mission critical workloads than anybody. We know a lot about data, but what we're talking about now is not just persisting data. It's about protecting data. It's about moving data, right? And those are different skill sets that we're sort of acquiring and always looking at our teams to think about and look, you know, we can do a lot of that organically. We are also always, you know, contemplating the right strategic M and A at the right time to sort of add to that talent and technology. >> You got the balance sheet for it now, so. >> We do indeed. We do indeed. >> We get the M and A question in there, but my question to you is, as you look at these systems, because we've always said in theCUBE, many times, distributed computing is back. >> Yeah. >> It never went away. Cloud is just a version of that with on-premises and edge. It's an operating system. It's got all the IO, it's got the control plane, it's the internet, right? And so as you look at that, there's a system and with the scale of cloud, ecosystems are emerging and they're super important because if you're plugging and playing solutions, you've got glue layers, you've got automations coming, AI machine learning, the partners aren't just totally dependent on each other, the interdependencies go away. So, as you see partners that could be LEGO blocks, and be composed into these large scale solutions that you guys are rolling out, what is the role of the ecosystem? What does the future ecosystem look like? How do you tell if it's healthy, and take us through that new formula, because we see it changing. >> Well, look, I, you know, we've been very explicit in our strategy, that partnerships have to be a part of our strategy. We can't solve all of the problems of the data in multicloud world alone. And when you see announcements like Snowflake, or you see us announce, continued collaborations with each of the hyperscalers, or even how we continue to invest in and double down on our VMware relationship, it's an acknowledgement that, to solve the problems that our customers are telling us, this super cloud you're describing, this integrated multicloud journey, you know, we're going to solve a lot of it ourselves, but a lot of it we're going to have to partner with. It's just got to be part and parcel of any good strategy. Luckily we're a natural ecosystem partner. As I said, we are not another cloud stack looking to build a walled garden, right. We know our spot in this game and it is to make multicloud simpler across the infrastructure layer. >> Somebody asked me, is Snowflake a part of Dell's ecosystem, or is Dell part of Snowflake's ecosystem? I said, yes. Right, because that's a perfect example. >> I think that's exactly right. These only work, and we've learned this with VMware, when it's mutually beneficial to both sides. So you look at the use cases we're talking about with Snowflake, right? Bio directionally copy data from our storage to their data cloud. That's beneficial to Snowflake and our customers. And of course bringing data cloud on-premises is beneficial to us, so look, there's more win-wins when you stare at these partnerships, than there are zero. >> I think that's a key point from even a decade ago, the platform wars were well identified, viewer platform. They competed against each other. You got now platforms with platforms because of the synergies of the integration. This is new, this is a new dynamic. >> It's the great world of tech, it's cooperation and it's, you know, there's certainly places where we compete sometimes, but other places that we, you know, we cooperate. And so, yeah, we're excited about our position in this multicloud ecosystem. We think we positioned the company perfectly. >> How do you spend your time? >> As a COO? >> Just at Dell? I mean, you know, give us the sort of breakdown. >> Yeah, well look, I mean, I think that what makes it fun is no two days are alike, but, right? But together, Jeff Clark and I share a responsibility for setting strategy with Michael and then aligning the leadership team on our strategic priorities. And you know, in the world we live in, there's days you wake up and today is supply chain day, because something has happened in the world, but you know, often it's with customers or investors, so it's a true COO general manager job. And I would tell you, no two days are the same. >> Strategy, solving problems, keeping things moving. >> Leading the team, setting a vision, and listening to customers. I mean, at the end of the day, we talk a lot about our durable, competitive advantages as a company. I think our single greatest competitive advantage is our go to market reach. And the fact that we touch more customers and partners than anyone in technology. And that gives us a inside track on what they're worried about, what they're thinking about and how we can help. >> It's interesting, you mentioned how earlier, how things come back around on cycles and we're seeing hardware matter more than everything, in fact, we're doing a editorial thing on why hardware matters. Look at the advances in Silicon. >> Yeah. >> And smaller footprint of powerful devices compute, about towers and edges. And so the role of hardware, I think they got the software defined software and the role of open source in all of this, it's almost a perfect storm to kind of reset this, none of the trajectory of growth, where hardware innovations working with the new software. >> For sure, for sure. >> Can you react to that? >> No, I think it's spot on. I think the future of architectural innovation is really exciting, when you look at what CPUs and GPUS and DPUS, and all it's able to do in the future of infrastructure and eventually the ability to compose your infrastructure to the workload versus, you know, have it be rigid and silent. I mean, there's as much innovation inside the infrastructure as there is in the ecosystem. And, you know, that's exciting for our customers, right? It's going to make them more efficient. It's going to make them able to make decisions with data better than they are today. It's great to be in our space for sure. >> It's great to have you on. Now, you're a CUBE alumni. >> All right, well, I've watched from afar and admired, and it was really painless. So thank you. >> Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Keep it right there, everybody, Dave Vellante and John Furrier will be back right after this short break, you're watching theCUBE at Dell Tech World 2022. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to today's session of the 2021 AWS Global Public Sector Partner Awards. I'm delighted to present our special guests for today's program and they are Kyle Hines, VP Strategic Accounts at Presidio as well as chief Chuck Hoskin, Jr., chief of the Cherokee Nation. Welcome to the program, gentlemen >> Thank you. >> Terrific, well, delighted to have you here, we're going to discuss the key award of best partner transformation, most impactful nonprofit partner, of course now highlighting some of the technologies now being technology now being leveraged to help preserve the Cherokee language as well as its culture. Now, Chuck, I'd like to start with you and if you could describe some of the challenges that the Cherokee nation is now faced with in terms of preserving the language and its culture and how you see technology being able to really help preserve it. >> Well, thank you, Natalie. It was really good to be with you all today. The Cherokee language and culture is what makes us unique as a people. It's the link that links us back to time and immemorial through generations. And over those generations, there've been many threats to our language and culture. There's been disease after European contact, there's been dispossession, there's been our forced removal on the trail of tears. Other pressures in more modern times have continued to erode our language and culture, including, boarding schools, the public school system through most of the 20th century as Cherokee Nation has gotten back on its feet, that is to say when the govern the United States has allowed Cherokee Nation to do what we've always done well which is to govern ourselves, chart our own destiny, and preserve our life ways, we've been able to make preservation efforts but those generations of eroding our language and culture had coming to steep costs. We're the largest tribe in the country, 392,000 citizens and by the way we're mostly in Northeast, Oklahoma but we have Cherokees living all over the country even all over the world. And we only have 2000 fluent speakers left. So it's a great challenge to save a language that's truly endangered. And if we don't save it generations from now we may do a number of things exceedingly well as we do today, business, providing education and housing, creating a great healthcare system, but we will have lost that thing that makes us a unique people, that thing that links us back to our past. And so what we're doing today, working with great partners like Presidio is just indispensable to what's really our most important mission. >> Yeah, terrific. Well, thank you so much for those insights. I'd like to switch it over to Kyle and hear about the technologies now being utilized to preserve the Cherokee language and culture. >> Sure, happy to Natalie and thanks for having us this morning. So yeah, when we started to work with the Cherokee Nation, it was very clear to us that, there's obviously a higher power or a higher mission here. And so it's really been an honor to work with the chief and the nation and what we've been able to do is is take what the Cherokee Nation is trying to do in terms of language and cultural preservation and build solutions in really a very modern way. So between Inage’i, the 3D mobile open-world game and the virtual classroom platform, it's entirely a cloud native serverless solution in AWS, using a lot of the most modern tools and technologies in the marketplace. For example, in the mobile game, it's built around unity and the virtual classroom platform is built around the Amazon chime SDK, which allows us to really build something that is very clean and light and focused on what the nation is trying to achieve and really cut out a lot of the baggage and the other sort of plumbing and various other technologies that this would have, this type of solution would have taken just a few short years ago. >> Yeah, terrific. Well, Kyle, staying with you, what do you think were some of the factors behind the development of this solution? >> Yeah, so I think flexibility was key. Was maybe the biggest design goal in building these solutions because you learn a lot when you originally set out to build something and it starts to impact real users, and in this case, speakers of the Cherokee Nation, you learn a tremendous amount about the language and how it's used and how people communicate with each other. And so the main design goal of the solutions was to allow a sort of flexibility that lets us adapt. And every time we learn something and every time we find something that works or perhaps doesn't work quite as well as was imagined, we have the flexibility to change that and kind of stay nimble and on our toes. >> Terrific, well, Chuck, now switching over to you, why do you think that some of these, platforms like the virtual classroom are so effective with Cherokee speakers? >> Well, a couple of reasons, one pandemic related, during COVID the worst public health crisis the world seen in living memory, we have had to adapt quickly to continue on our mission to save this language. We couldn't afford a year off in terms of pairing speakers, by the way, most of our fluent speakers are over the age of 70, with young people who need to learn the language and be the new generation of speakers. So it's been really important that during those difficult times we could connect virtually and the technology we've been using has worked so effectively, but the other is really irrespective of what's going on in terms of having to isolate, and social distance and things of that nature during COVID, and that is just making sure we can make this language accessible, particularly to young people in a manner in which they are becoming accustomed to learning things throughout the rest of the world. And so using platforms that they're familiar with is very important but it also has to be something that an older generation of these fluent speakers, as I say most of them are over 70, can use. And that's what really has been so effective about this platform. It's so usable. Once you introduce it to people whether it's a young person who can adapt pretty quickly 'cause they're growing up immersed in it, or it's someone who has not been familiar with that technology, with just a little bit of showing them how to use it, suddenly this classroom becomes just like you're in person. And that makes all the difference in the world in terms of connecting these young people with their elders. As the other thing is Cherokees are by nature very much part of a big extended family. And so that personal connection that you can maintain through this platform is really important. I think it's going to be the key to how we save this language, because as I say we have Cherokees all over the country, even all over the world and we're going to harness our numbers, the large population we have and find those with the interest and aptitude to learn the language, we must use this technology and so far it's worked well. >> Yeah, terrific, and now switching over to Kyle, we'd love to hear from you how your team developed this technology. How they really thought out, what kinds of methods are really going to drive the interaction and the immersion and engagement among these disparate demographics of, elderly Cherokees and also the young generation. So, how did your team go about developing that? >> Yeah, it's a very good question because in a situation like this, there is no shortage of different ways that you could have built a solution like this. There are a lot of different ways that it could have been done. So the tax that we took was a rigorous focus on the user experience and on the experience of the speaker. And that allowed us to detach ourselves to a large degree from what were the exact technology choices that were implemented in terms of AWS services, other open source packages that run on AWS, it's being able to focus completely on what the nation was trying to achieve with their speakers, both through the game and the virtual classroom platform. It let us take a lot of other design decisions and technology choices sort of into the background and behind a level of abstraction. And so there's always quite a bit of rigorous testing and really making sure you understand how something's going to perform in the wild, but the reality of the situation was, the whole reason for doing it was the experience of the speakers, both in the game and in the classroom platform. So we stayed very focused on that and made technology decisions sort of second fiddle or lower priority. >> Terrific, well, Chuck, how do you think that these kinds of innovations could be applied to other areas of the Cherokee school system? >> Well, our greatest challenge is preserving language and culture, but we also have as part of our mission to educate this new generation of Cherokees coming up. For years and years, really generations, Cherokees who were able to get a good education many of them left our tribal lands for new opportunities. And so we lost a great deal because of the economic pressures here in Northeast, Oklahoma, particularly on our Cherokee lands. So the task now is to generate opportunity for a new generation coming up. Education is key to that and so if we want to create a pipeline of young Cherokees who want to get into the healthcare fields, want to get into aerospace, want to get into other professions, we've got to create an education system that is steadier and modern. We have a school that is K through 12th grade, K through the senior year, and so we have an opportunity really to do that. And I think for the first time in our history, in this era, I'm talking elect the last few decades, we are able to really craft education in a way that works for us and using technology and making choices about what that technology is, is important to us. It's a bygone era in which the federal government or the state is sort of imposing on us what choices we make. Now we can reach out with great partners all over the world like Presidio and say what solution can work for our classroom? When we can identify what the great demands are on the reservation in terms of jobs. And one of the great demands we have is healthcare. So how can we use technology to inspire little Cherokee boys and girls to grow up and be doctors and nurses here in just a few decades when we're building this great health system? Well, we're going to use technology to do it. So the possibilities are really unlimited and they need to be because we think our potential here in Cherokee Nation is unlimited. >> Yeah, I mean that's terrific to hear how technology is really encouraging younger generations to study, learn and really push themselves further. Kyle, I'd like to switch over to you and hear a little bit about the benefits of launching this kind of platform on AWS. >> Yeah, there are a lot of benefits to building this on AWS. And I think that it spans a couple of categories, even. I mean, from a technological perspective there was every tool and every service that we needed to build both of the solutions that we built right there in AWS. And when there was a, when there was a time where we needed to jump out and use a project outside of AWS, running on AWS such as the unity engine, AWS makes that very easy. So I would say that the choice was easy because there are technological realities and the breadth and the depth of the technological portfolio in AWS combined with the partnership that we get from them, It's really, you know, there's a lot of support when it comes to, Hey we're working with the Cherokee nation on something that's extremely important. We need your help. We need you to help us figure this out. It's never been hard to get that partnership. >> Terrific, and also following up on that, love to hear how AWS really helped with flexibility and also the cost effective effectiveness of this kind of platform. >> Yeah I would take those questions backwards or in reverse order because the cost-effectiveness of the solution is really, it's really something to make note of because when we build something in the way that we built these platforms they're serverless and event driven. Meaning that the Cherokee Nation is not paying for a solution constantly as we would in lives past running things in data centers and such. It really, the services in AWS allow us to say, Hey, let's spin up certain pieces of functionality when they're needed as they're being used. And the meter is running during that time, and the cost is occurred during the time it's being used and not all of the time. So that really has a dramatic impact on cost effectiveness. And then from a flexibility standpoint, as we learn new things, as we evolve the platform as we grow this out to more and more speakers and to more and more impact to the Cherokee Nation, we have all kinds of different technology choices that we can make and it's all contained within AWS. >> Yeah, and I'd like to open this now to both of you, starting with Chuck, how do you think this kind of technology could be applied to other cultures or languages that re seeking to preserve themselves? There's so many languages in the world that are now dying out because most of us are only speaking, just a few like English, Spanish, just a few others, what steps can be taken so that humanity can preserve these important languages? >> Well, you're right. There are so many endangered languages around the world and indigenous languages are unfortunately dying all over the world all the time, even as we speak, they're slipping away. The United nations is dedicated the next decade to the preservation of indigenous languages. That's gotten many leaders around the world thinking about how we can save languages here in this era. And I would encourage any tribal leader in particular in the United States, but I think it certainly applies around the world to seek out this technology. I mean, Cherokee Nation's in a position now where we can seek out the best in the world in terms of partnerships. And we've found that in Presidio. And of course they're using AWS which means they're using the best in the world and so the technology exists, and the willingness to work together exist. And I think generations ago that would have been not something we could have connected well on in terms of partnering with companies that were doing cutting edge things. So if you're looking to connect generations in terms of learning and sharing the language, which is just I cannot stress enough how indispensable that is to language preservation, this type of technology will do it. There are some, I think that may think, and I don't have a technology background, that if you're using this cutting edge technology, I mean this is the best in the world that you're going to speak only to this young generation coming up, and maybe it's inaccessible to an older generation. It's just not the case. This is so user-friendly that we we've been able to connect elders with young people. And if anyone in the world interested in preserving languages could see this in action, could see a young person sitting next to an elder talking about the technology or connecting virtually, it would change their whole perspective on what technology means for language reservations because I promise you all over the world the great challenges you have this group of older generations of people who know the language. They have it in their hearts, they have it in their minds and they're slipping away just from the passage of time. Connecting them with the generation coming up is just what we need to do. This technology allows us to do it. >> Yeah, Chuck following up on that when I hear about elderly people being able to connect with the younger generations in this way and share their history and their culture I'm sure that also, It must have a positive mental effect for them. Right, so elderly are often isolated. Do you have any insight on that? Any quality of insight what you've heard from people using this? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think the last year has proven how valuable it is. I mean, we lost over 50 fluent Cherokee speakers and I mentioned earlier in the program, that we only have 2000 left. 50 to COVID and more to just the passage of time and old age. But we have many that are active and engaged in language preservation and they have said to me how valuable it's been to be able to be at home and yet still feel like they're part of this great mission that we have at the Cherokee Nation. Understand that this mission that we have is on par with what any nation in history has set as a goal to shoot for whether it's the United States wanting to land a man on the moon, we're trying to save the language. This is that level of importance. And so for an elder to feel like they're connected and still contributing during this past year difficult times, that makes all the difference in the world. And even as I say, as the pandemic recedes and we hope it continues to recede, there is still a need for elders to stay connected. And in many cases they cannot due to poor health, due to the lack of transportation, this knocks down those barriers and so there's a great deal of joy that has been gained from using this technology. And honestly, just talking to elders about young people getting the opportunity to play this video game even some elders that were voice actors in this game, that Presidio helped us develop. I mean, I can't tell you how important that is for somebody to use their language, to make a living. And that's part of how you preserve a language. Presidio has showed us a way that we can do just that. So we're not only training new speakers, we're giving this opportunity many cases to elders to do something that is very productive with the wonderful gift they have, which is the Cherokee language. >> Terrific, well that is really inspiring because potentially this technology could be utilized by generations to come. The current young people that are using this will one day be the elderly. So, Kyle, how do you see this technology potentially on this platform being evolved? What's the next step to keep it really up to date for future generations as it's evolving. >> Yeah, there's a lot of plans on where to take this I can tell you, honestly. From the perspective of the mobile game, you're building on a platform of an open world game means that the imagination is the limit quite honestly. So there are a lot of new characters and new levels and new adventures that are plans to further immerse the speakers in the platform. And I think that will, that will help with reach and it will help with the amount of connection that's built to the chief's point about bridging the older generations into the younger generations over that common bond of the language and the culture that keeps those connections alive. And so we want to expand the mobile game Engage, the navigate to be as accessible and as wide reaching and immersive as it possibly can, and there are a lot of plans in the works for that. And then with the virtual classroom platform, we started with a various focused constituency within the nation of the language immersion school. And there are many other educational services and even healthcare to the chief's earlier point again where I think there's a lot of potential for that one as well. >> All right, well, terrific gentlemen. Thank you so much for your insights, really fantastic hearing how this platform is really a difference in the lives of people in the Cherokee Nation. Of course, that were our guests, Kyle Hines, VP Strategic Accounts at Presidio as well as chief Chuck Hoskin Jr., the chief of the Cherokee Nation. And that's all for today's session at the 2021 AWS Global Public Sector Partner Awards, I'm your host for "theCUBE", Natalie Erlich. Thanks so much for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting accelerating automation with definite brought to you by Cisco. >>Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the que were in Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of Cisco definite create. We've been covering definite create for a number of years, I think since the very first show. And Susie, we and the team really built a practice, built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and getting Debs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and developing solutions and using brain power that's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have our next guest. Ah, partner for someone is Brad Haas. He is the engineering director for Dev Ops at Presidio. Brad, great to see you. >>Hey, Jeff. Great to be here. >>Absolutely. And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect, Francisco Definite partners. And he has been driving ah, whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, Great to see you. >>Thanks, Jeff. Great to be here. Looking forward to this conversation. >>Absolutely. So let's let's >>start >>with you, Chuck. Because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, you know, software defined networking has been talked about for a long time, and, you know, it's really seems to be maturing. And software to find everything right has been taking over, especially with with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability, custom ability in software and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is toe have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, Absolutely. So along this whole journey of definite, where we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of versus co platforms, most of Cisco's business is transacted through partners, and what we hear from our customers and our partners is they wanna our customers one away to be able to identify. Does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey. I'm trying to do do a new implementation. I wanna automate that. How can I find a partner? Thio, Get there. And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along this definite journey with us for the last six years. They really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and given edge to my customers to show them that, Yes, I have these capabilities. I built a business practice. I have technology. I have technologists that really understand this capability, and they have the definite certifications to prove it helped me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what are definite partner. Specialization is all about >>right, that's great. And, Brad, you're certainly one of those partners. And I want to get your perspective because partners are often times a little bit closer to the customer because you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on. We know what happened back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home on You can't goto work, so you know there's all the memes and social media about who you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation. The CEO of the CMO or cove it. And we all know what the answer is. Whatever you can share some information. So what happened then? And really, for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it. Six months plus and and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How is the customer? Attitudes kind of change now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment. And really, we need to put in place, um foundation to carry forward for a very long time. Potentially. >>Yeah, it was really quite interesting, actually. You know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests. Thio help with automation of provisioning our customers. And in the whole, you know, digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there, and I'd say it became or of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers. Thio. You know, new topology is where instead of the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly and waited. Have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and program ability building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers. Thio get up and running really fast on. But that is what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that the the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit, you know, Now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my office is in a different way, You know, for example, you know how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my e? My conference rooms are there, Uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information like, how many people are in the building at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that? You know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So? So the conversations really changed in ways that you couldn't have imagined before march. >>Now, I wonder with you, Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view. I mean, the network is amazing. It had had co vid struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. You know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly. Entertainment, Um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality. But for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if you know, kind of from your perspective, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, definite with with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space is good spaces. You could be giving this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. Uh, Cisco has always pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation. And as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself. I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years this is you know, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore. But my day to day functions are are still the same, and it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry as faras kind of moving to that application type of economy as we go to micro services as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud. Those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this to this covitz situation, and I think it's helped to to justify the investments that that our customers have made. A swell is what our partners have been being able to do to deliver on that multi cloud capability to take those applications, get him closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable. Thio users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional four walls, >>right, right, it's interesting. And Brad, you made a comment on another interview I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of applications. Now, being first class citizens was was what you said, and it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now? Really, it's the infrastructure, that response back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that APS first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that gives them the ability to react in the marketplace to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's a It's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push the cloud was really interesting In the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to you change our applications to be cloud first, you know, And then I think the terminology changed over time. I've, um, team or cloud native. So when we when we look at what Cloud has done over the past five years, with customers moving, you know, there their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just like another data center. But what it's really become is a place thio host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're no longer talking about you know, the assets per se. We're talking about the applications and what what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially what with the whole move to cloud native and micro services in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure. As code you're now able toe, bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application as infrastructure is code, the application in this the definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are all are wrapped together and you've got changed control, version control. Um, and it's all automated, you know, it's it's a beautiful thing, and I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. You know, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking. I think everybody was trying to figure it out, and they didn't really fully understand what that meant. Now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like, as it's as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's terror, former answerable, whatever that might be. Whatever method or tool that you're using Thio to bring it all together. It Z you know, it's really interesting. You know, I think I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than you know, when those early days of S d. N, we're out, you know, it was a positive controller. Is it the new version of S and M. P? You know, now it makes sense. It's actually something tangible, >>right? Right. But still, Chuckas, you said, right? There's still a lot of AP ice, and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off. The network that all have to fit, uh, have to fit together. You know, we cover pager duty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the problems are within a very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandoned the shopping cart or whatever the particular applications. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability. Super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of. And they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely, Jeff. So the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference? I mean, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the Internet, the amount of people necessary to to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not scale. It's automation that makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that. Automatic provisions provisioning. Now that we're in micro services, now that everything is cloud native, we have the ability to to better to better adjust to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we could very quickly spend something up to to take that load off where traditionally it was. Open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there. Let me fix it. Now it's instantaneously identify the solution. Go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team. They just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability in a point that Brad Maeda's faras you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it, I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the A p, i s from the infrastructure and then the ability to tie that into other systems like an I p address management or a change control or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made in infrastructure changed and now I can automatically do that. Documentation up Dayton record. I know who did it. I know when they did it, and I know what they did. And I know what the test results were even five years ago. That was fantasy land. Now, today, that's just the new normal. That's just how we all operates. >>Right? Right, Right. So I want to get your take on the other trend, which is cloud Multi Cloud, Public Cloud. You know, as I think you said, Brad, When Public Cloud first came out, there was kind of this this Russian to we're gonna throw everything in there than for for different reasons. People decided. Maybe that's not the best, the best solution. But really, it's horses for courses, right? And I think it's pretty interesting that that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're gonna put their workloads. And, oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right? It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my my initial Dev and an Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I wanna move it into my data center, and then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something. I wanna flex capability. So from from your perspective and helping customers work through this because still, there's a lot of opinions about what is multi cloud, what is hybrid cloud? And, you know, it's horses for courses. How are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through? You know, everybody talks about their journey. I think they're still, you know, kind of bumbling down, bumbling down past, trying to find new things. What works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. >>Yeah, no doubt is still early days. And you know, I e go back Thio being applications centric because, you know, being able thio understand that application. When you move to the cloud, it may not look like what it used to look like. When you when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service, while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as a service, and some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier. Those resource is wherever they are and be defined in that infrastructure is code and automation. But you know, decide from provisioning. I think we focus a lot about provisioning when we talk about automation. We also have these amazing capabilities on on the side of operations to like we've got streaming telemetry in the ability Thio gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before or at least in the, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right? You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. It probably had a friendly name. Like, maybe it was something from the Hobbit. Right now you've got things coming up in spinning, spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place in that thing. You used to know what that waas Now you have toe quickly. Figure out where it went, so the observe ability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody, um, should be paying attention, attention to moving forward with. Regards, Thio when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers Or, you know, in your premise, um, breaking that in a micro services you really need to understand what's going on in the, you know, program ability in a p I s and, you know, yang models or tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many break things coming out of this, you know? And it's all like a data structure that that people who are going down this path and the definite path they're learning these data structures and be able to rationalize and make sense of them. Once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or a switch. Um, Amazon. You know, it doesn't matter. You're you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great, Chuck. I want to shift gears a little bit because there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about about, you know, definite really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as really more of a software software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you could put a little more color on that, Um, because clearly, as you said partners Air super important, it's your primary go to market and and Presidio's, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world. That's and you know, you said, there's some There's some, you know, nontraditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner, that suddenly you guys were playing with because of really the software lead. >>Yes, Jeff, that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with Devon, it's whether it be at one of the Cisco Live events in the Definite zone or the prior definite create events will have. We'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views as a as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resale market. This what we're doing with the definite specialization gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem share them with are extremely large, definite community so they can get access to those to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they built this fantastic automation business that's there. But they may come into into a scenario where it's working with their vertical or working with the technology piece that they may not have an automation practice for. We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint goto markets where so they could go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value. On top of that traditional stack that brings us to this business, outcomes of the customers are looking for a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion. >>That's terrific. Well, again, it zits unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the Cisco definite shows you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computers Museum, I think, the last couple of years. And in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together. Hope maybe, maybe for next year's event. But thank you very much for for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. >>You have a happy to be here. All >>right, Thanks a lot. That's Brad and Chuck. I'm Jeff. You're watching Cisco. Definite live coverage on the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco, >>Everybody Jeffery here with the Q we're in our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of Cisco dev net create we've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built, uh, a practice built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power. That's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, a partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here, >>Julie and joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco dev net partners, and he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and, you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's business is transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want a way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey? I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along this step, in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the double net certifications to prove it, help me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. Right. >>It's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO, or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it, six months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time, potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning, our customers and the whole digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there. And I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in, uh, we, we didn't have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building in a, at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in, in, in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. Right. >>Right. And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. Uh, Cisco has always pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So, uh, for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities that we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that our customers have made, as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional four walls. >>Right. Right. It's interesting that Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now, I really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people a competitive advantage, that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just like another data center, but what it's really become is place to host >>Your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about the assets per se. We're talking about the applications and what, what do those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in the definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. You know, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to, to bring it all together. >>It's, it's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was, was it a controller or is it the new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense it's actually something tangible. >>Right, right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that have to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandoned their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of, and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look up >>The ability to do that automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now that everything is cloud native, we have the ability to better, to better adjust to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something up to take that load off where, you know, traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability, in a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. >>I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. >>Right. Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other >>Hybrid cloud, multi cloud >>Public cloud. You know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center. And then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective and helping customers work through this, cause still, there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and you know, it's horses for courses. How are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like what it used to look like when you, when you move it over there and you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as a service. And some of it might still be in your data center. Those >>Are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are, can be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. But you know, the side from provisioning, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry in the ability to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right? You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. >>You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. And that thing you used to know what that was. Now, you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, I'm breaking that into microservices. You really need to understand what's going on in the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of them. Once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Check. I want to shift gears a little bit. Cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about Deb, not really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really the software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been >>Talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or at the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views us as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This, what we're doing with the dev net specialization gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into a con into a scenario where it's working with a vertical or working with the technology piece, that they may not have an automation practice for. We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value. On top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes of the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion. >>That's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco DevNet shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computers museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together. I hope maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. Happy to be here. All right. Thanks a lot. That's Brad and Chuck. I'm Jeff. You're watching Cisco dev net live coverage on the cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>> Live from San Francisco, it's the Cube. Covering Google Cloud Next 2018. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome everyone back to the Cube's live coverage. This is day three of Google Cloud Cube coverage here. Google Next 2018 #GoogleNext18. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Jeff Frick. Our next two guests kicking off day three, is Ed Anuff, the director of product management at Google Cloud, part of the Apigee acquisition, really part of the APIs and really a big part of the story here at Google Next, and Chuck Knostman, vice-president of IT at T-mobile customer. Ed, thanks for coming on. Chuck, thanks for coming on. So Apigee, a big part of the story at Google Next is, you know, the role of APIs and services. Huge, and I won't say nuanced. I mean, certainly Istio is new to a lot of people. Kubernetes, superly a very important piece of this new cloud service platform, as well as just running work loads, multicloud, etc. What's the focus, what's going on for you guys at the event. Take a minute to explain the announcements and what you guys did here at the show. >> Sure, so, APIs are how software talks to software. And what we announced this week at the show with Kubernetes and Istio are new ways for people to build software and deploy it, in new distributive fashions. And so that's creating new ways for tying your software together. Microservices, a lot of people are talking about now, are a key part of this. And so, from an Apigee perspective, you know, we're looking at facilitating how to make that communications happen, how to make it secure, how to make it efficient, how to monitor it. So what we announced was that Apigee is making it now possible for you to have all the tools that we've given you for managing your APIs, for, you know, getting your mobile apps to talk to your cloud services and all that, now is also going to apply to these new microservices that you're building. And so we think it's a pretty exciting thing. Lot of our customers have been asking for this, and obviously, uh, Chuck being one of them, and so, you know, that's what it's been all about for us this week. >> Chuck, obviously, APIs, key part of dev ops. You know, it first started with slinging some APIs around, stitching them together. Developers voted with their code, clearly APIs is the way that software's working. Microservices takes us to a whole nother level. Now, operationalizing APIs seems easy, but it's, you've got to start managing things differently. How are you guys taking that API and this new service management piece of it and kind of operationalizing APIs into T-Mobile? >> Yeah, we've been using Apigee for about four years now, and so over the time I think we were have 200 plus internal APIs, so we've over that time we've kind of learned how to operationalize that piece of it. Over the last couple of years we've really been focused on the microservice layers. Writing cloud-native applications, essentially. And that layer, and now with the Apigee hook into Istio, we're going to have a much better way to manage it. And it's really nice to see the platform starting to grow and mature along with us, so that's really great. >> I can only imagine how complicated it is to run real-time, cloud-native and have also legacy, and I think one of the things I'd like to get your thoughts on is, containers have become a nice piece of, not ripping and replacing to bring in the new. You don't have to kill the old to bring in the new. And now with containers, Kubernetes, and microservices and Istio, you have an ability to kind of do both. Talk about how you guys do it, cause this is like a perfect storm, in a good way, for enterprises. >> Well yeah, and it's really good timing for us as well. We're just now starting our Kubernetes journey on premise, if you will. So we're a big cloud-foundry shop. We're starting to put our legacy applications into docker containers and moving them, we'll be moving them onto Kubernetes. And so you can see the whole, the containerization shift as we go, as we go through time. And it's really, for us, like you said, it's fortuitous that at this timing because now with Istio coming in and being able to control all that, that's a great thing for us. >> Ed, talk about, you give a lot of history. To use, as normal APIs, it's lingua franca, it's been around for a while, you've had a lot of experience in that. But a lot of the enterprises that we talk to are like, there's a lot of pressure in IT to do more now with cloud-native. And now with the new services that are out there, it kind of takes the pressure off IT because the pressure of, oh, I got to sunset that app or I don't know when to kill that workload. I know I want to maybe transform it, but I don't want to have to disrupt all this stuff. So talk about the importance of nondisruption, because this seems to be a conversation that's talked a lot in the hallways. >> That's exactly right. So, you know, what you see within enterprises is that there's a need to deliver a whole set of new applications, and a lot of these are connected to digital experiences. Basically everything that you experience on your mobile apps, every new form of engaging with your customer. That's where a lot of the business growth is that's bringing, you know, a lot of the funding for these new initiatives. But, a lot of the core data of the enterprise is locked up within systems that have been operating very efficiently, but siloed for many years. And so that's the part that we see the most, which is, you know, folks within IT come to us and say, "Look, you know, I've been building these legacy systems "for many years now, and I know that if I can just take "the data that's locked up in these and bring these "into these new ways of doing business, "that it's going to have a huge impact on my business." And that's, you know, that's where the question sits. And then the follow up on that is, "Hey, you know, we want to, "we want to make our businesses more like the way, you know, "you guys are doing it in Silicon Valley. "And we, we see what you're doing with containers, "and we see things like Kubernetes, and cloud-native, "and we know that's the right way to build things, "but there has to be a way for us to bring "all of these other assets that we've been building "for the last 30 years along for the ride." And in fact for most of these businesses, our response is, "Hey, it's not just a question "of building along for the ride. "That, that's your core, that's your, that is been "what you built your business on. "So don't even just think about it "as this thing that you somehow have to drag along. "Think about how you actually can amplify it "because it's been the source of your business for so long." >> Yeah, the other I would add to that is that it gives us scale and operation, a much better operational platform to work with. For us, we've grown tremendously, or our growth has been tremendous over the last five years. We've gone from I think 30 million customers to 73 million customers, and frankly, to scale those systems up, containerization is probably the only way we can go with it. And with, from an operational standpoint, having one platform like Kubernetes to have, to operate for all of this stuff just helps us out tremendously. >> We hear that all the time. I think that's the biggest story around containers outside of geeking out on the benefits of it is that it really allows a nice bridge to the future. You don't have to burn the boats, as they say, in Silicon Valley, you know. >> And you can pick your, you can pick on the applications you want to keep around, right. Then you refactor 'em to be cloud-native on the ones you don't. You don't have to go all the way, right, and so you can make it much better that way. >> Chuck, I'm curious to get your take on the changing competitive environment. Cause before, you know, you had these big complex systems and you wanted to keep them running. Now the pressure for more innovation, more applications, quicker applications, to leverage not only your inside stuff but outside stuff, and how some of these technologies are helping you deliver that to your customers or your internal development team. >> Yeah, like I said, scale is one aspect of it. Performance is another, and the ability to move those workloads close to the customer just like Google's trying to do with moving closer to the customer, we do the same thing. Right, and so the hybrid cloud is real for us. We run in almost all the clouds right now, and on premise we treat that as a cloud as well. But being able to do that can only happen when we containerize stuff and utilize similar platforms on all these places. >> Right, and then you'll have this huge transformational shift over the next several years with 5G right, that's coming-- >> Yeah, yeah, and we've been at it for a couple years now. >> For a couple years, so this is going to be another huge wave of change inside your infrastructure. >> Yeah, sounds fantastic. >> What attracted you to Google Cloud? Share, take a minute to explain. What was the interest in Google Cloud. Why Google Cloud for your guys? >> Well we're just getting started with it, but it's really, it's the partnership we've had with Apigee that's helped us kind of understand what's going on with Google Cloud, but then the open-source nature of it as well as the focus on AI and ML. That's why we're really taking a hard look at what's going on with Google Cloud, and the attitude towards enterprises is great as well. >> Culture's a good fit there. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, it's interesting, a lot of people are attracted by some of the speed. I mean, we've been hearing here at the show, you know, Google obviously has built their business on being fast. >> Yeah, well and having your own network is massive as well, right. >> And now you got the API. And what's the future look like for APIs and Apigee inside Google? Give us a little taste of what you guys are working on, some of the projects you guys are passionate about, and some of the successes you've had or any anecdotal use case studies. >> So definitely, so, you know, APIs carry our customers' most important data. And data's the basis for machine learning and AI, and so you're going to see a lot of product innovation for us about bringing, you know, AI to the point of these data conduits that are what APIs are all about. It's the natural place to couple it with every business process. So that's a big deal for us. I think that, you know, the security aspect, you heard a lot about security in the key notes. Again, you know, APIs are the conduit in many cases for, again, the enterprises most important data. To get outside of the perimeter of the enterprise, it has to be done in a secure way. You know, and then finally, being able to go and leverage the sort of collaborative nature, the stuff you see within open-source, the community around all of this, again, you know, most APIs are about bringing a lot more developers to, you know, build more applications in less time around these APIs and that is, that collaboration component is something that we see a ton of opportunities in terms of leveraging, you know, Google's unique know-how in terms of advancing and pushing this data that are in an API management. So I think you're going to see a lot of that from us. >> Chuck, I'd love to get your thoughts on how you in IT, obviously and IT's transforming, we talk about it all the time, how you keep track of what's good, right. It used to be in the old days the stack was pretty not that complex. And you go to Gartner or magic quadrant, oh they're a leader, I'll kick the tires, they come in, a vendor will come in, but some of the best cloud providers don't even show up on a magic quadrant because it's horizontally scalable. APIs changes the stack a little bit. A new modern middleware is emerging with Istio and new sets of business models and services are emerging. So a lot of people are like trying to be, how do you determine who's good. You know, in IT, because ou want to move the needle, you want to transform, you got a lot a build up. How do you kind of evaluate, is there any new ways, or is it gut instinct or specific things that you look at? >> Really good question. We look, we try to adopt the open-source stuff first. But we, from the company standpoint we also look at the company themselves and who's really vested in what's going on with it. Like, Apigee four years ago was really the only ones that were really only doing APIs, right. And their knowledge and the depth and their road map, that's what we really kind of look for. But to your point, things are changing so rapidly that you kind of have to go with the, watch the open-source community. Where are all the pull requests coming from, or what platforms are they going after? And then track that, and that's where, that's what we try to do. And so when we see Kubernetes and the explosion that's happening on that, the tooling that's coming around that, we know that's going to be good for enterprises going forward. So, we're going to be heavily investing in that platform. >> It's interesting, we always talk about developers, but what's interesting that's coming out of the show that we're observing is, it's always about developers do building apps. But the role of an operator inside IT, used to be an operator would, you know, maybe provision some storage and some servers. Now the role of what an operator, I mean, network op guys, now it's kind of like a more of a holistic view. Your thoughts on this. I know it's super early, but the emergence of these two personas in IT is super critical. >> Yeah, we look at it like it's automation, right. That's where it all comes to play. So if you've got a platform like a Kubernetes where you can have all this automation built around it, and you let the developers just do their thing and focus on the business logic, it's huge. So there is kind of two personalities, and the caring and feeding of that platform is just as important as the guys writing the applications across the top. >> Yeah, it's really a great environment. Final question for you guys. Observations on the show, Google Next. What's your observation, obviously you've got an API perspective, just globally looking down. If you kind of look, zoom out and look at, look down at the show, thoughts and commentary on what's happening here. >> You know, I think the scale of it has been amazing, you know, we became part of Google two years ago. We were here at the show last year, looking at it this year. And, the level of growth, the activity, attendees, the number of announcements, it's just been amazing. It's been very exciting for us to be a part of. >> Cool, Chuck your thoughts? >> Super impressed. This is our first one, really, that we've come to. We were even participating on the stage on the Knative, we wrote some applications to work with Knative. But, it's a, it's a very diverse crowd which is awesome. I think you really need that. Some of the others, I don't see as much. So I think what Google is doing, and again their approaches to enterprise, looking more at solutions, vertical solutions, very impressed with what's going on here. >> It's a really great time. Congratulations on all your success with the APIs. You guys have done the work, and open-source, it's where the, your employees want to work. They want to meet other people, and this is where the co-creation, that's where the assessments of the vendors happen. >> Opensource.T-Mobile.com, that's where we want to be. >> Alright, great. Well, Chuck, Ed, thanks so much. Really appreciate the time. It's the Cube live coverage here in San Francisco covering Google Cloud's conference, Next '18. We'll be right back with more day three coverage. Stay with us, we'll be right back. (light jazzy music plays)

>> Announcer: Live from Midtown Manhattan it's theCUBE. Covering Big Data New York City 2017 brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in New York City it's theCUBE's special presentation Big Data NYC. This is our fifth year doing our own event here in New York City, our eighth year covering the Hadoop World ecosystem from the beginning. Through eight years, it's had a lot evolutions, Hadoop World, Strata Conference, Strata Hadoop, now it's called Strata Data happening right around the corner. We run our own event here, talk about thought leaders and the expert CEO's, entrepreneurs. Getting the data for you, sharing that with you. I'm John Furrier co-host theCUBE with my co-host here Jim Kobielus who's the Lead Analyst at Wikibon Big Data. And Chuck Yarbough who's the Vice President at Pentaho Solutions part of Hitachi's new Vantara. A new company created just announced last week. Hitachi in a variety of their portfolio technologies into a new company, out to bring in a lot of those integrated solutions. Chuck great to see you again, theCUBE alumni. We chatted multiple times at Pentaho World, going back 2015. >> Always he always great to be at theCUBE. >> What a couple of years it's been. Give us quickly hard news, it's pretty awesome you guys have a variety of things at Pentaho you know with Hitachi, that happened, now the market's evolved, what's this new entity, this new company they're bringing together? >> Yes, so the big news Hitachi Vantara. So what that is, two years ago Hitachi Data Systems acquired Pentaho and so fast forward two years. A new company gets created from Hitachi Data Systems. Pentaho, in a third organization at Hitachi called the Insight Group so Hitachi Insight Group. Those three groups come together to form Hitachi Vantara >> What's the motivation behind that. I mean, I go connect the dots but I want to hear your perspective because it really is about pulling things together. The trend this year the show is as Jim calls it, hybrid data, integrated data. Things seem to be coming together, is that part the purpose? What's the reason behind pulling this together? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons. One of them is what we're seeing not just in our own business, but in our customers business, and that is digital transformation. Right, this this need to evolve So Hitachi Vantara is all about data and analytics. And a big focus of what we do is what Pentaho's been doing for years which is driving in all kinds of data, big data, all data. I think we're getting on the cusp of closing out the big data term, but you know, it's all data right. >> Data everywhere, every application. >> And applying analytics across the board. One of the big initiatives, part of why Pentaho was originally acquired we were actually Hitachi Data Systems was a customer of Pentaho when we got acquired, so we we knew each other pretty well. And part of the reason for that acquisition was to drive analytics in around internet of things. The IoT space, which is something that Hitachi being a very large IT and operational technology, OT, company probably does as well as anybody if not better. >> So going back couple of years, I'm just looking at my notes here from our our video index. You visited theCUBE in 2015, but really the concepts have evolved significantly. I want to just highlight a few of them. What data warehouse optimizations, we talk about that. Data refinery concepts, 360 view as applied to big data. Again that was foundational concepts that all are in play right now. >> Absolutely. >> What is the update in those areas? Because refinery, everyone talks about data refinery, you know, oil, the easy oil example but I mean, come on, data is everywhere it is most important, you can use it multiple times unlike oil, as you were pointing out. >> So interesting you bring that up. So to me data refinery in a digital transformation really in an IoT world where lots of data is is streaming through in fact, yesterday I read something by IDC that 95% of all data in the future and the data growth is dramatic it's 10x what it is today in just a few years. 95% of the that growth of data's IoT related. The question is how are you using most of that, right, and what what are you going to do with it. So that data's is streaming through, there's a lot happening, we can do things at the edge, we can apply analytics and filtering and do things. But ultimately that data is going to land somewhere and that's where that refinery, think of it as the big data center refinery, right, where I'm going to take that large amount of data and do the things that Jim does, you know and apply machine learning and deep algorithms too really. >> I had some thoughts on the IoT Jim and I were arguing, not arguing, discussing, with others in theCube about the role. >> We were bickering. >> The role of the edge because I was saying the refiner of the data can come back depending on what kind of data or you push compute to the edge, kind of known concepts, people been discussing that. But the issue is been, how do you view the edge? I'd love to get your reaction to that question because a lot of people are saying you have to think of IoT as a completely different category, than just cloud, than just data center, because the way some people are looking at IoT I know this can be semantics whether it's industrial or just straight internet of things device, or person, that is a different animal when it comes to like what you call it and how it gets put into a bucket. I mean most people put a lot of the IT bucket but. Some are saying IT edge should be completely different category of how you look at those problems. Your thoughts on how that IoT conversation shape. >> The question I always ask when I'm talking to somebody about the edge is, well what do you mean? Because it is something that can be defined a little bit differently but in an industrial IoT context I think, you know we look at it as one, you you have to know what those things are you have to really understand them. And part of understanding those things is having a digital representation of what those things are. >> A digital twin? >> A digital twin. Right, or asset avatar, as we call it at Hitachi. >> Oh I like that. >> So this idea of really managing those assets, understanding what they are and then being able to know what the current state, what the previous state, things are like that are. And then that refinery we just talked about is sort of where that information goes to so you can do other kinds of analytics right. But when you're talking about the edge, typically what we're seeing is the kinds of analytics might happen at the edge, are probably more around filtering you know, it's not quite as complex of analytics that's what we're seeing today. Now, the future I don't know. >> Sort of tiered analytics from the edge on in with more minimal, I mean, not minimal that's the wrong term, with a more narrowly scoped inference. Like predictions and so forth being handled at the edge with larger more complex models being like deep learning whatever being processed in the cloud is that it? >> Yeah that's exactly the way that I see it. Now the other thing about the edge, depends on who you're talking to, again, but what is an edge device or the the gateways or the compute right, so part of IoT is in my mind, it's not cloud, it's not on-prem or it's not, I mean it's a little bit of everything right, it depends on the use case and what you're operating. We have a customer who does trains as a service in England, in Europe, and so they don't sell the trains anymore they actually manufacture trains, and they sell the service of getting a passenger from here to there. But for them, edge is everything that happens on those trains. And tracking, as a digital representation, the train and then being able to drill down deeper and deeper, and you, know one of the things that I understand is one of the major delays for train service is doors opening and closing or being delayed, so maybe that comes down to a small part and the vibration of it and tracking that. So you've got to be able to track that appropriately. Now, on a train you might have a lot of extra space so you could put compute devices that have a lot of power. >> What's interesting you said the edge, in this context, is everything that happens on that train. In other words, it sounds like all the real world outcomes that are enabled, perhaps optimized, by embedding of the analytics in those physical devices or in that entire vehicle that is essentially. One way that you're describing the edge which is not a single device but as a complete assembly of devices that play together. Amongst themselves and in with the services in the cloud. Is that a logical sort of framework? >> That's why I said I usually ask what do we mean by edge. If you've got millions, thousands, whatever, devices out there feeding sensors whatever feeding this data, collecting, processing you know there's some some level of edge computing gateways, processes that are going to happen. >> Well, my question for ya, I'd like to get your thoughts, as we, again we're having a, we love the hyperbio we think its completely legit and it's going to be continued to be hyped because it's obvious what you see with IoT standing on the edge. But lot of customers we talked to are like, look I got a lot going on I got application development I got to break out my security got to build that up. I've got data governance issues, and now you throw in IoT over the top. They're like, I'm choking in projects. So they they come down to one of a selection criteria. How do they define a working IoT project? And the trend that we're seeing is that it has to do with their industrial equipment or something related to their business. Call it industrial IoT, because if they have something in their business, say trains, as a critical part of what they do, that's easy to say let's justify this. Everything else then tends to go on the back burner, if they don't have clear visibility of what their instrumenting. That's kind of weird do you agree with that? Do you see a pattern as well as what customers are doing by saying I'm going to bring this project in and were going to connect our IoT. >> That's exactly what I see. Industrial internet of things is where I see the biggest value today when you have trains or mining equipment or you know whatever. >> John: Whatever your business runs. >> Your manufacturing line right. and being able to a fine tune those lines to either predicts failures, maybe improve quality. Those are those are impactful and they can be done right now today and that's what we're seeing is kind of the big emerging thing. IoT's interesting to talk about, the reality is it's really digital transformation that we're seeing. Companies transforming into new business models, doing things significantly different to grow into the future. And IoT is an enabler of that. So you're not going to see IoT everywhere today. >> The low hanging fruit is where it gets to the real business. >> Yeah, but it's going to go across all verticals, right, no doubt. >> So what solutions does Pentaho have for digital twins, or managing digital twins, the objects, the data itself, within and IoT context, is this something you're engaged in already? >> So within the Hitachi Vantara, the larger company. Bigger company, we have, we have what we call our Lumada IoT Platform and in that there is this asset avatar technology that that does exactly what you're describing. Now I'm going to throw quick plug out if you don't mind. Pentaho World in a couple, in about a month. >> John: theCUBE will be there. >> theCUBE will be there, and we're excited to have theCUBE and we're going to we're going to give you complete information about asset avatar with all the right people. >> There's a movie in there somewhere I could feel it, Avatar two. There's a lot of great representations of data I want to get your thoughts on how the new firm's going to solve customer problems. Because now as the customer see this new entity from you guys, Vantara's been doing real well, we covered the acquisition and you were kind of left alone Pentaho was integrating in, but it wasn't like a radical shift. Now there's some movement, what does it mean to the customer, what's the story to the customer. >> You know I think it's great news for the customer because Pentaho's always been very customer focused. But when you look at Hitachi Vantara the wealth of technology and expertise. Everything from all of the the great IT oriented stuff that Hitachi Data Systems has done and been well known for in the past still exists. But this broader focus of taking data and processing it in a variety of ways to solve real business problems. All the way to orchestrating machine learning in applying algorithms and then with the Hitachi. >> What specifically in Hitachi is coming into this? Because again this is again a focused solution company now with data, so Hitachi Data Centers, >> Yeah, so Hitachi Data Systems, think of it as the the infrastructure company. Hitachi Insight was the really focused largely on the IoT platform development, with some Pentaho assets and then the Pentaho business. But here's the thing about Hitachi, very large company, builds everything. Mining equipment and and all kinds of stuff. So nobody understands how all those things fit together better, I believe, than Hitachi. But some of the things that we have at that organization is this idea of the Hitachi labs. And data scientists that are really doing interesting things Jim you'd love to get more embedded into what some of those things are, and making that available to customers is a huge opportunity for customers to now be able to embrace a lot of the technologies we've been talking about. I said last year that this year was going to be the year of machine learning. And if you look through the expo hall that's what everybody's talking about. Right, it's AI or machine learning. >> I'm wondering if you're commercializing R&D that's coming straight out of Hitachi labs already or whether the Vantara combination will enable that. In other words, more innovation straight out of the labs, into into the commercial arena. >> That's something that we are absolutely trying to to, right because there's great things that these lab organizations and at Hitachi they're big labs. They're really legit, I kind of joke about that. The kinds of stuff that they're able to bring about now, Pentaho is part of the engine to help actually commercialize those things. >> Chuck I know you're looking forward to Pentaho World I'll give you the final word here in this segment how you see the big data worlds evolve. Take your Pentaho hat off and put your industry guru hat on. What's happening, I mean this AI watch, that's pretty obvious, not a lot of blockchain discussion which is going to completely open up some things we getting on the decentralized application market which is going to compliment the distributed nature of how we see a date analytics flow and certainly the immutability of it's interesting. But that's kind of down the road. But here you're starting to see the swim lanes in the industry, you've seen people who've been successful and the ones who have fallen by the wayside. But now the customers, they want real solutions. They don't want more hype, they don't want another eighth year of hype, they want OK let's get into the real meat and potatoes of data impact to my organization, call it digital transformation. What's happening, what is going on the landscape. >> So you know I mentioned before and to me it's digital transformation which is a big huge thing. But that's what companies are interested in that's what they're beginning to think. If they're not thinking about those things they're falling behind, five or six, seven years ago we talked about the same exact thing with big data. It's like a big data is really you know it's a big opportunity and they're like well I don't know those that didn't adopt it aren't necessarily in a position now to transform digitally and to do some of the things that they're going to need to evolve into new business opportunities. >> And the big data examples of winner is the ones who actually made it valuable. Whether it's insight that converted to a new customer or change an outcome in a positive way, they go that wouldn't have been possible without data. The proof points kind of hit the table. >> That's right the other thing is you know, who's going to win, who's going to lose. I think people that are implementing technology for technology's sake are going to lose. People that are focused on the outcomes are going to win. That's what it is, technology enables all that but you've really got to be focused on. I want to get your quick, one more quick thing, before we go I know we got we're tight on time but I want to get thoughts on the open ecosystem. Open source going to whole other level. The projections are code will be shipping at an exponential rate, it's be a lot of onboarding of new stuff, so open obviously works, community models work, partnering is critical. So we're seeing that good partnerships, not fake deals or optical deals or Barney deals, whatever you want to call it. But real partnerships. You starting to see technology partnerships. What's your view on that, how is the new Vantara going to go forward, are you going to continue to do partnerships and what's the strategy? >> Yeah I think the opportunity with one, Hitachi Vantara is we have a breadth that can touch many different aspects. So as Pentaho we had great partnerships, very meaningful but it always comes down to what we doing for the customer. How are we changing things for customer. So I'm not a believer in those Barney kind of relationships those are nice but let's talk about what we're doing for customers. >> Yeah, real proof points. >> You guys will continue to parner. >> Yes, we will continue to do that. >> Okay great, Chuck, thank you so much. CUBE coverage Live in New York City in Manhattan it's theCUBE with Big Data NYC, out fifth year doing our own event in conjunction with Strata Data. Now bless the new name of the show. It was Strata Hadoop, Hadoop World before that. But we're still theCUBE covering eight years of the action here back with more after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering mobile world congress 2017. Brought to you by Intel. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Palo Alto for day two of two days of Mobile World Congress special coverage here in Palo Alto, where we're bringing all the folks in Silicon Valley here in the studio to analyze all the news and commentary of which we've been watching heavily on the ground in Barcelona. We have reporters, we have analysts, and we have friends there, of course, Intel is there as well as SAP, and a variety of other companies we've been talking to on the phone and all those interviews are on YouTube.com/siliconANGLE. And we're here with Chuck Tato, who's the marketing director of the data center of communications with Intel around the FPGA, which is the programmable chips, formerly with the Alterra Group, now a part of Intel, welcome to theCUBE, and thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. So, actually all the rage Mobile World Congress Intel, big splash, and you guys have been, I mean, Intel has always bene the bellweather. I was saying this earlier, Intel plays the long game. You have to in the chips games. You got to build the factories, build fabs. Most of all, have been the heartbeat of the industry, but now doing more of less chips, Most of all, making them smaller, faster, cheaper, or less expensive and just more power. The cloud does that. So you're in the cloud data center group. Take a second to talk about what you guys do within Intel, and why that's important for folks to understand. >> Sure. I'm part of the programmable solutions group. So the programmable solutions group primarily focuses on field programmable gate array technology that was acquired through the Alterra acquisition at Intel. So our focus in my particular group is around data center and Coms infrastructure. So there, what we're doing is we're taking the FPGAs and we're applying them to the data center as well as carrier infrastructure to accelerate things, make them faster, make them more repeatable, or more terministic in nature. >> And so, that how it works, as you were explaining beforehand, kind of, you can set stream of bits at it and it changes the functionality of the chip. >> Yes. So essentially, an FPGA, think of it as a malleable set of resources. When I say that, you know, you can create, it's basically a fabric with many resources in an array. So through the use of a bit stream, you can actually program that fabric to interconnect the different elements of the chip to create any function that you would like, for the most part. So think of it as you can create a switch, you can create a classification engine, and things like that. >> Any why would someone want that functionality versus just a purpose-built chip. >> Perfect question. So if you look at, there's two areas. So in the data center, as well as in carrier infrastructure, the workloads are changing constantly. And there's two problems. Number one you could create infrastructure that becomes stranded. You know, you think you're going to have so much traffic of a certain type and you don't. So you end up buying a lot of purpose-built equipment that's just wrong for what you need going forward. So by building infrastructure that is common, so it kind of COTS, you know, on servers, but adding FPGAs to the mix allows you to reconfigure the networking within the cloud, to allow you to address workloads that you care about at any given time. >> Adaptability seems to be the key thing. You know kind of trends based upon certain things, and certainly the first time you see things, you've got to figure it out. But this gives a lot of flexibility, it sounds like. >> Exactly. Adaptability is the key, as well as bandwidth, and determinism, right? So when you get a high bandwidth coming into the network, and you want to something very rapidly and consistently to provide a certain service level agreement you need to have circuits that are actually very, very deterministic in nature. >> Chuck, I want to get your thoughts on one of the key things. I talked with Sandra Reddy, Sandra Rivera, sorry, she was, I interviewed her this morning, as well as Dan Rodriguez, and Caroline Chan, Lyn Comp as well. Lot of different perspectives. I see 5G as big on one hand, have the devices out there announcing on Sunday. But what was missing, and I think Fortune was the really, the only one I saw pick up on this besides SiliconANGLE, on terms of the coverage was, there's a real end-to-end discussion here around not just the 5G as the connectivity piece that the carriers care about, but there's the under-the-hood work that's changing in the Data Center. And the car's a data center now, right? >> Yeah. >> So you have all these new things happening, IOT, people with sensors on them, and devices, and then you've got the cloud-ready compute available, right? And we love what's happening with cloud. Infinite compute is there and makes data work much better. How does the end-to-end story with Intel, and the group that you're in, impact that and what are some of the use cases that seem to be popping up in that area. >> Okay, so that's a great question, and I guess some of the examples that I could give of where we're creating end-to-end solutions would be in wireless infrastructure, as you just mentioned. As you move on to 5G infrastructure, the goal is to increase the bandwidth by 100X and reduce the latency by orders of magnitude. It's a very, very significant challenge. To do that is quite difficult, to do it just in software. FPGA is a perfect complement to a software-based solution to achieve these goals. For example, virtual switching. It's a significant load on the processors. By offloading virtual switching in an FPGA, you an create the virtual switch that you need for the particular workload that you need. Workloads change, depending on what type of services you're offering in a given area. So you can tailor it to exactly what you need. You may or may not need6 high levels of security, so things like IPsec, yo6u know, at full line rate, are the kind of things that FPGAs allow you to add ad hoc. You can add them where you need them, when you need them, and change them as the services change. >> It sounds like, I'd never thought about that, but it sounds like this is a real architectural advantage, because I'd never thought about offloading the processor, and we all know we all open up or build our PCs know that the heat syncs only get bigger and bigger, so that people want that horsepower for very processor-intensive things. >> Absolutely. So we do two things. One is we do create this flexible infrastructure, the second thing is we offload the processor for things that you know, free up cores to do more value-added things. >> Like gaming for, my kids love to see that gaming. >> Yes. There's gaming, virtual reality, augmented virtual reality, all of those things are very CPU intensive, but there's also a compute-intensive aspect. >> Okay, so I've got to get your take on this. This is kind of a cool conversation because that's, the virtual reality and augmented reality really are relevant. That is a key part of Mobile World Congress, beside the IOT, which I think is the biggest story this year, is IOT, and all the security aspects of it around, and all that good stuff. And that's really where the meat is, but the real sex appeal is the virtual reality and augmented reality. That's an example of the new things that have popped out of the woodwork, so the question for you is for all these new-use cases that I have found that emerge, there will be new things that pop out of the woodwork. "Oh, my God, I don't have to write software for that, There's an app for that now." So the new apps are going to start coming in, whether it's something new and cool on a car, Something new and cool on a sensor, something new and cool in the data center. How adaptive are you guys and how do you guys kind of fit into that kind of preparing for this unknown future. >> Well, that's a great question, too. I like to think about new services coming forward as being a unique blend of storage, compute, and networking, and depending on the application and the moment in that application, you may have to change that mix in a very flexible way. So again, the FPGA provides you the ability to change all of those to match the application needs. I'm surprised as we dig into applications, you know, how many different sets of needs there are. So each time you do that, you can envision, reprogramming your FPGA. So just like a processor, it's completely reprogrammable. You're not going to reprogram it in the same instantaneous way that you do in software, but you can reprogram it on the fly, whatever you would like. >> So, I'm kind of a neophyte here, so I want to ask some dumb questions, probably be dumb to you, but common to me, but would be like, okay, who writes bits? Is it the coders or is it someone on the firmware side, I'm trying to understand where the line is between that hardened top of kind of Intel goodness that goes on algorithmically or automatically, or what programmers do. So think full-stack developer, or a composer, a more artisan type who's maybe writing an app. Are there both access points to the coding, or is it, where's the coding come from? >> So there's multiple ways that this is happening. The traditional way of programming FPGA is the same way that you would design any ASIC in the industry, right? Somebody sits down and they write RTL, they're very specialized programmers However, going forward, there's multiple ways you an access it. For one, we're creating libraries of solutions that you can access through APIs that are built into DPDK, for example on Xeon. So you can very easily access accelerated applications and inline applications that are being developed by ourselves as well as third parties. So there's a rich eco system. >> So you guys are writing hooks that go beyond being the ASIC special type, specialist programming. >> Absolutely. So this makes it very accessible to programmers. The acceleration that's there from a library and purpose-built. >> Give me an example, if you can. >> Sure, virtual switch. So in our platform for NFE, we're building in a virtual switch solution, and you can program that just like you know, totally in software through DPDK. >> One of the things that coming up with NFE that's interesting, I don't know if this y6our wheelhouse or not, but I want to throw it out there because it's come up in multiple interviews and in the industry. You're seeing very cool ideas and solutions roll out, and I'll give, you know, I'll make one up off the top of my head, Openstack. Openstack is a great, great vision, but it's a lot of fumbling in the execution of it and the cost of ownership goes through the roof because there's a lot of operation, I'm overgeneralizing certain use-case, not all Openstack, but in generally speaking, I do have the same problem with big data where, great solution-- >> Uh-huh. >> But when you lay out the architect and then deploy it there's a lot of cost of ownership overhead in terms of resources. So is this kind of an area that you guys can help simplify, 'cause that seems to be a sticking point for people who want to stand up some infrastructure and do dev ops and then get into this API-like framework. >> Yes, from a hardware perspective, we're actually creating a platform, which includes a lot of software to tie into Openstack. So that's all preintegrated for you, if you will. So at least from a hardware interface perspective, I can say that that part of the equation gets neutralized. In terms of the rest of the ownership part, I'm not really qualified to answer that question. >> That's good media training, right there. Chuck just came back from Intel media training, which is good. We got you fresh. Network transformation, and at the, also points to some really cool exciting areas that are going on that are really important. The network layer you see, EDFE, and SDN, for instance, that's really important areas that people are innovating on, and they're super important because, again, this is where the action is. You have virtualization, you have new capabilities, you've got some security things going down lower in the stack. What's the impact there from an Intel perspective, helping this end-to-end architecture be seamless? >> Sure. So what we are doing right now is creating a layer on top of our FPGA-based SmartNIC solutions, which ties together all of that into a single platform, and it cuts across multiple Intel products. We have, you know, Xeon processors integrated with FPGAs, we have discreet FPGAs built onto cards that we are in the process of developing. So from a SmartNIC through to a fully-integrated FPGA plus Xeon processor is one common framework. One common way of programming the FPGA, so IP can move from one to the other. So there's a lot of very neat end-to-end and seamless capabilities. >> So the final question is the customer environment. I would say you guys have a lot of customers out there. The edge computing is a huge thing right now. We're seeing that as a big part of this, kind of, the clarity coming out of Mobile World Congress, at least from the telco standpoints, it's kind of not new in the data center area. The edge now is redefined. Certainly with IOT-- >> Yes. >> And IOTP, which we're calling IOTP app for people having devices. What are the customer challenges right now, that you are addressing. Specifically, what's the pain points and what's the current state-of-the-art relative to the customer's expectations now, that they're focused on that you guys are solving. >> Yeah, that's a great question, too. We have a lot of customers now that are taking transmission equipment, for example, mobile backhaul types of equipment, and they want to add mobile edge computing and NFE-type capabilities to that equipment. The beauty of what we're doing is that the same solution that we have for the cloud works just as well in that same piece of equipment. FPGAs come in all different sizes, so you can fit within your power envelope or processors come in all different sizes. So you can tailor your solution-- >> That's super important on the telco side. I mean, power is huge. >> Yes, yes, and FPGAs allow you to tailor the power equation as much as possible. >> So the question, I think is the next question is, does this make it cloud-ready, because that's term that we've been hearing a lot of. Cloud-ready. Cause that sounds like what you're offering is the ability to kind of tie into the same stuff that the cloud has, or the data center. >> Yes, exactly. In fact, you know, there's been very high profile press around the use of FPGAs in cloud infrastructure. So we're seeing a huge uptick there. So it is getting cloud-ready. I wouldn't say it's perfectly there, but we're getting very close. >> Well the thing that's exciting to me, I think, is the cloud native movement really talks about again, you know, these abstractions with micro services, and you mentioned the APIs, really fits well into some of the agilenesss that needs to happen at the network layer, to be more dynamic. I mean, just think about the provisioning of IOT. >> Chuck: Yeah. >> I mean, I'm a telco, I got to provision a phone, that's get a phone number, connect on the network, and then have sessions go to the base station, and then back to the cloud. Imagine having to provision up and down zillions of times those devices that may get provision once and go away in an hour. >> Right. >> That's still challenging, give you the network fabric. >> Yes. It is going to be a challenge, but I think as common as we can make the physical infrastructure, the better and the easier that's going to be, and as we create more common-- >> Chuck, final question, what's your take from Mobile World Congress? What are you hearing, what's your analysis, commentary, any kind of input you've heard? Obviously, Intel's got a big presence there, your thoughts on what's happening at Mobile World Congress. >> Well, see I'm not at Mobile World Congress, I'm here in Silicon Valley right now, but-- >> John: What have you heard? >> Things are very exciting. I'm mostly focused on the NFE world myself, and there's been just lots and lots of-- >> It's been high profile. >> Yes, and there's been lots of activity, and you know, we've been doing demos and really cool stuff in that area. We haven't announced much of that on the FPGA side, but I think you'll be seeing more-- >> But you're involved, so what's the coolest thing in NFE that you're seeing, because it seems to be crunch time for NFE right now. This is a catalyst point where at least, from my covering NFE, and looking at it, the iterations of it, it's primetime right now for NFE, true? >> Yeah, it's perfect timing, and it's actually perfect timing for FPGA. I'm not trying to just give it a plug. When you look at it, trials have gone on, very significant, lots of learnings from those trials. What we've done is we've identified the bottlenecks, and my group has been working very hard to resolve those bottlenecks, so we can scale and roll out in the next couple of years, and be ready for 5G when it comes. >> Software definer, Chuck Tato, here from Intel, inside theCUBE, breaking down the coverage from Mobile World Congress, as we wind down our day in California, the folks in Spain are just going out. It should be like at 12:00 o'clock at night there, and are going to bed, depending on how beat they are. Again, it's in Barcelona, Spain, it's where it's at. We're covering from here and also talking to folks in Barcelona. We'll have more commentary here in Silicon Valley on the Mobile World Congress after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Congratulations, Reggie Jackson. >> Certainly in the moment, is about what are youth is and who we are today as a country, as a universe. You are CUBE alumni. Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Oracle OpenWorld 2016. Brought to you by Oracle now here's your host John Furrier and Peter Burris. >> Hey welcome back everyone we're live here in San Francisco at Oracle OpenWorld. This is SiliconANGLE Media's flagship program, theCUBE, where we go out to the events and extract the signal from noise. I'm John Furrier, co-CEO of SiliconANGLE Media, with Peter Burris, general manager at Wikibon research, and Head of Research at SiliconANGLE Media. Our next guest is CUBE alumni, Chuck Hollis, Senior Vice-President of Infrastructure at cloud and storage. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> It's always a pleasure. I always have a good time when I'm here. >> So the best part of having you on is you've seen the movie before, you've lived it on other teams, you're now at Oracle, what, two and a half years? >> Chuck: One year at Oracle. >> Almost two years, so -- >> Chuck: I'm not dead yet. >> I don't think you -- >> What's that mean? Let's explore that. When will you be dead? >> You're looking good right now. You actually look like you been working out. >> A little tan, like you, like you, you know? >> So is it the country club here at Oracle? >> No, no, no. >> Chairs spinning at five o' clock? >> I'm up early and to bed late and weekends included, right? >> Well, certainly, Dave Donatelli's here, and a team of people really ramping up, essentially engineered systems, AKA hardware engineered in with the software. >> Both, in the cloud, and on premises, right? >> In the cloud and on premises. Clear, end-to-end oracle solution, which will, one, be optimized to run on Oracle, or -- >> Among other things, yes. >> So give us the update; what's the new announcements today? >> So Larry from onstage was very proud to talk about our new gen-two infrastructures of service, and our belief is there's a gap in the market. We have people doing public cloud, right, which, basically, is Startover, Azure, AWS. No chance of an on-prem solution. We have the private cloud guys, basically a Vmware shop, infrastructure only, no pass no nothing, and certainly not a lot of choices if you want to go to public cloud. We think that Oracle's doing a good job of creating that third option. Here's a combined, integrated strategy, on-premises and in the cloud, same technology, same set of capabilities aimed at enterprise applications that basically works the way enterprise IT needs it to work. So this next-gen two infrastructures of service is kind of the first peak of this massive investment we'd be making making entirely new infrastructure cloud that meets the needs of enterprise IT. >> So is this a reboot, or is this an extension of where you guys were? Some were, analysts were saying, not us, but -- >> Chuck: Ah, you'd never say that. >> Well, they said, I was using their words. Holger at Constellation said it's a reboot of their other infrastructure service, so he didn't want to say it failed, implied a transition -- >> Well, I wouldn't say it failed, it's more like a leapfrog. >> John: Explain. >> Oracle got into this business software as service, rather than standalone Sass packages, they worked on integrating everything tightly together, unifying the company. That was followed by platform as a service, aimed at 9,000,000 Java developers around the planet and everything they do. Infrastructure as a service was just made separately about a year ago. We got into the market, we learned a lot of things, but we also realized that we could actually start over again. We look at the engineering team, it's up to about 400 people who are building this next-gen IS, are all ex-Amazon, all ex-Azure. This is not their first infrastructure cloud, and because they were handed a blank piece of paper and said, "you can start over again," it actually is pretty exciting what they've done architecturally. >> So there's got to be something Oracle's doing that's distinct, so just for any number of reasons. Oracle has a lot of existing customers that're running heavy-duty enterprise applications. >> Chuck: Yeah, the tough stuff. >> The tough stuff, so talk to us about how the tough stuff is going to end up in the cloud. >> I think you bring up a good point. One way of looking at it now is that the easy stuff is gone. Desktop has gone to Office 365, and those kids from college are playing with AWS, and maybe I've got some generic workload consolidation sitting in the back room with a private cloud. What about those hairy applications, the demanding databases, in-memory analytics, the big to-do workloads? Where are they going to go? Well, what you see with out infrastructure-to-service is that we're actually providing two capabilities. We can run all of those through our cloud using those exact same technologies that we're running on-premises. You're probably familiar with products like Exadata. Well, you can buy an Exadata. You can use the Exadata in the Oracle public cloud, or you can consume it as a cloud machine, something we call "cloud-to-customer" on premises. And I think that's an important differentiation. A lot of this market is focused on consolidating generic workloads. That's more moderately interesting to us. To your point, what we're really interested are the big, hairy ones. As I joke, these are the ones that have vice-presidents attached to them, right? Yeah, the ones that people really care about. >> Peter: And typically eight figures. >> Depends on the size of the company. Like, Mark was interviewing a lot of people, a lot of customers this morning, and some of them were not large shops. >> But even those partners that're serving those customers often have eight figures associated with their investment in Oracle as well, so it cascades out through the entire industry. But it's also, I want to ask you this, Chuck. It's also not always the applications that have to be brought forward, but we were talking about ageism and it's always better if it's new, but there's a lot of skills in the industry. It's not a question of we want to bring them along. That's still where a lot of the value's being created, so talk about how this third way is going to make not only existing customers and existing apps, but also existing skill sets more rapidly develop inside and experience the expertise with these new technologies. >> I think that's a very good important because any IT organization's only as good as their skill set portfolio. I think anybody who's worked with IT understands that. By the same token, look at the portfolio. Walk into an average IT shop. Here's the stuff that was built decades ago. Here's the stuff that's kind of modern client-server three-tier. Here's the new stuffs that were using containers and microservices. If you're going to be an enterprise cloud provider to that IT shop, you got to support the old stuff, you got to support the kind of current stuff, and you definitely got to give a little pathway to the new stuff, and give me the ability to evolve that portfolio, and peoples' skills forward at the same time. This is what my big arguments that most public cloud providers is public cloud is easy. Just blow everything up and start over in our cloud. Well, as attractive as that might sound, that may not just be a financial reality for the majority of IT organizations. >> Yeah, operationally, too, they can't run their business. So so much for the container stuff. Ravello was the new container cloud server. >> Two things. So we have Ravello and we have a new container cloud service. So we'll put that on Ravello. So we all know hypervisors virtualize hardware. Ravello virtualizes hypervisors. What it does is it comes in to a VC or KVM environment, lifts it up, strips off the hypervisor, encapsulates the network to storage and the compute, then you can actually choose your cloud. You want to run it on AWS, you want to run it on Google, or do you want to run on the Oracle cloud? And it'll show you the prices for each, and you can shop there, so the reason we think that's interesting is nobody really wants to get locked into anybody's cloud, and if we can give people workload portability through VMs, that's great. Well, that's for stuff that we wrapped with virtualization. What about the new containerization? Well, trick with containers is container management, and today, if you want to do container management, you got to graft some open-source stuff and basically build your own. What Oracle has done is created and end-to-end container management service that says, alright, if you really would like to build your own, have at it, but in the meantime, here's something that kind of works. We can do that on-premises, on our cloud machines. We can do this in public Oracle clouds. We have this fast-burning desire to do this on other people's clouds just as soon as we get our own stuff sorted out. But it's the same thing. If I'm developing an application, Oracle has to go compete for that infrastructure business. It can't just say, well, you're an Oracle customer, you have go on all our stuff. And it would be the rare IT leader that would accept lock-in at the cloud level. >> There's no reason to do it today. There's absolutely no reason to do that. >> They may choose to go with us. >> But even if they choose to go with you, they want to do so in a way that doesn't force the lock-in. >> We all flew here, did you pay attention to the flight attendant when she showed where the exit rows are and everything? You may not plan on using that, but it's nice to know they're there. >> And it's nice for you to know where they are, too. Because you guys have learned that to stay at the vanguard of the industry, you have to be always aware of who's about to eat your lunch. >> And I think the Oracle database did a good job back in the day, and still to this day of being affordable. You can invest in the database, it can go wherever you want. And we're trying to do the same thing for that application ecosystem. And we're trying to involve three categories. The old, legacy stuff, the somewhat contemporary stuff, and the emerging containers, microservices-based stuff. >> So talk about your partners, because I know that something that we've been talking about on theCUBE a fair amount is -- >> Partners, we got lots of them. Infrastructure partners in particular? >> John: Well, Centure has an announcement. >> There's a disco party going on behind us here. >> There sure is, unfortunately theCUBE sign's in the way. Otherwise I could participate in it. >> I can see. >> But come back to this notion of a lot of the value that has always been created in the Oracle ecosystems has been created in partners. I have this theory, we have this theory at Wikibon that ultimately there will be more examples of college suppliers being created by your customers and your partners than by individual like AWS and Oracle and Microsoft. >> So Oracle's always had a very rich partner ecosystem. Applications, development, to infrastructure. And the exciting thing that I'm seeing with out partners is like they're seeing opportunity. So let's say that you have this cool vertical application. Five years ago your were selling on-prem hardware with all that entailed. Now you can run the in the Oracle cloud and simply sell a subscription service to your customers. You've evolved your business model forward. Folks that we partner with do application development. They have a platform now for application integration where they have vastly more capablites as opposed to the old school, got to go build it, got to go assemble it, etc, etc. The people who're feeling a little threatened by all of this not surprisingly, are the box-shifters, right? They're guys who just move hardware from A to B. And we're working with them, it's like there's still opportunity there. You just have to look up the stack a little bit. Their skills are still valid, they're just not assembling hardware. >> And you got a Centure announced that the business groups taking the infrastructure-to-service products out, that press release went out today. We covered that. >> I didn't know if that went out yet, but thanks for confirming. >> Oh, maybe that was embargoed, oops. >> Roll back, roll back, roll back. >> Put that back in the model, live TV. >> Centure, all these guys, they want to provide more value to their clients, and 10 years ago, that was stitching together hardware. Now it's about teaching them how to intelligently consume cloud. And I think what these partners like about the Oracle offering is designed to work the way enterprise IT works. It's not this, hey, here's our model, take it or leave it. >> One more thought on this, that there's a difference between the traditional, as you said, three-tier infrastructure, client-server innovation center, and some of the new analytic stuff that's on the horizon. Talk about how you guys are specifically focusing on some of the new analytics applications that are on the horizon coming into the cloud and how you intend to make the two worlds work better together. >> So I think that's great. Old-school analytics we used to call data warehousing, and business intelligence. That hasn't gone away. If you look back five years, it was all about big data, and mining values. Now we're moving to a phase of real-time decision making. Welcome to in-memory analytics things as fast as they can be. And once you figure out how to monetize data, it's addictive, you just want to do it faster and faster and faster and faster. Also, we're talking about relatively exotic infrastructure, right? Multi-terabyte memory spaces, shared Numa architectures. Pretty hard to go down to Best Buy and find the hardware for that and go build that, so as people start pushing the envelope, they're looking more for on-prem engineered solutions or more often, what can you do for me in the cloud. Interestingly enough, we talked about this gen-2 infrastructure service. One of the things it's very good at is having enormous memory spaces and very fast to compute, this kind of bare-metal compute we're seeing in real-time analytics. I think the other factor on this is internet of things, forgive me for playing buzzword bingo, the easy part is gathering the data. The real-time decisioning and actioning on it, that's heavy computing. >> Peter: And delivery with control. >> Yeah, delivering with control. You've got 10 million gas meters. Okay, how do I reason over that in real time, right? That kind of thing. >> So I had to ask you, we've been hearing about this spark-based exadata, what it's all about. What's that all about, is it a new product? >> Another member in the family. So you guys probably know the headlines on the spark chip has a couple of unique talents. It's got 32 encryption processors, so it can encrypt in real time, no delay. Has this ability to take queries and run them in silicon. It also has the ability to compress and decompress memory for in-memory analytics. So the exadata is basically a purpose-built, engineered system for database, so by taking our processor technology and putting it in this purpose-built machine, it gets a whole bunch of new talents for no more money because again, that's part of our differentiation. Things I've learned since I've been a year at Oracle is it's nice to have your own chips. Sometimes they come in very very handy as you build differentiated solutions, so I think exadata customers will have a new option, and I'm sure in the fullness of time it'll be available in our public cloud, it'll be available as a cloud -- >> But this brings up a good point, though. Intel was on stage yesterday, gave the same old corporate pitch, didn't really learn anything new there. >> Chuck: They had nice slides, though. >> That Ian Bryant's awesome. But the thing is, and Larry said that I find compelling is now that I can get your thoughts on it because it kind of comes back to the hyperconversion trend, which is he said, "we are going to provide it faster and cheaper." So he's clearly looking at infrastructures, bring this thing down, cost down to zero if possible, while performance he wants to bring up to a whole other level. How are you guys going to do that, what's the strategy? >> I think Larry and Oracle have the ability to invest like crazy. Don't forget, we build our own hardware. We build our own servers. We build our own data center fabrics. We don't have to buy this stuff from anybody. We build it, so Larry and the team, a couple years ago set this team up with a mission to go compete. Now if you've looked at Amazon, AWS margins, you know there's a lot of fat there. They're also running on really old stuff, the basic architecture was designed 10, 11 years ago. I don't want to throw aspersions around, but you could call it legacy cloud, right? >> John: What do you call it? >> Legacy cloud, anything 10 years or older, it's got to be legacy. So there's a clear opportunity to go build something new. That being said, this is a big boy's game. This is not let's round up a couple million dollars of VC and build a new cloud. So to look at the aggregate spend Oracle's putting behind this infrastructure -- >> Well, you just said the big boys are public, like Rackspace, they couldn't make it, right? So you're starting to see, they were a little, kind of a big boy, I mean... >> They're reasonable out there. But look at it this way, Oracle's got a national software franchise. Much like Microsoft does bring people on. We build our own hardware. We build our own data centers. We actually can become a vertical supplier in this and the argument is efficiency is result. >> So we're going to see Dave Donatelli on Wednesday after his keynote. I know he's prepping up for that. How's it going with Dave, what's going on with Dave? >> Dave's having a good time. I mean, we all came to Oracle on the same premise, is that the industry was rotating, and I think we've seen that in some of the analyst numbers, less and less on-premise spend, more and more spent in the cloud. >> A lot of new hires coming in from an industry that we know on Oracle, pre-existing players. >> And if you asked 'em five years ago if they ever would end up working for Oracle, they might have not said so. >> John: You're being polite. They'd say, "no friggin' way." >> Go through your mind and think what are the traditional on-prem IT vendors that transition their customers to the cloud? It would be a very short list. >> So you buy the whole cloud-broker Dell technologies? >> They don't have a cloud. I think customers want to consume cloud. >> Bing cloud air network now has 4,000 cloud providers. >> All slightly different, all slightly different. >> All working together with hypervisor. >> It's like a big portfolio management company. >> Is that a chess game, or is that just hail Mary? >> Vshpere was designed for the data centers. EMC bombed 10 years ago. Our tech's designed for the data center, and it wasn't designed for a world where people don't want data centers anymore. So I think VM ware's very challenged because their technology and business model is standing up viable public cloud options. The last big one was, oh no, we can't do it. We'll go to IBM. What's your cloud strategy, VM ware? Call IBM? That's kind of a rough deal on a sales call. >> Well, if you put it in the context of a V-cloud air network, you could argue that they're giving up the cloud. Basically, VM world, they said, "we're done with the cloud." they yielded -- >> Peter: I don't think they said that, John. >> They yielded that they weren't going to have their own cloud. >> Absolutely they yielded. >> They yielded on not having their own cloud. >> Okay, they yielded on their own cloud, that's what I meant. >> Nothing more than kind of a boutique offering, and certainly there's a market for small regional service providers around the world. No argument there. And there's a natural tendency, but as I look at people going to cloud, the sticking point isn't the hypervisor, the sticking point is the database and the applications, the middleware. This is something Microsoft has done brilliantly with Azure. >> Larry pointed out that's Ernie's call. Microsoft's well ahead of Oracle on migrating their install base half into their cloud. >> And that's what you guys have to try to figure out how to do as well. >> We're well along the way. But the point is that without that franchise, that's a tough road to hoe, right? The infrastructure guys maybe, the applications guys are the ones you want to talk to. >> Peter said, I'd like to get your thoughts on a comment Peter made on our intro with Matt Eastwood from IDC, everything's on the table. Ecosystems, channel partners, >> Chuck: And we're shaking the table apart. >> So if you have the gravity, an Oracle face of the world that's a suite, which I think is a little bit orthogonal to where the cloud is, but I get the language of Oracle the suite. Is it gravity around the suite, not a winner-take-all? >> You got to be able to pick off pieces and they have to stand on their own. >> You could build a ecosystem around that, and open ecosystem, so that means a new lock-in spec is stickyness, or pure performance, or not, am I getting that right? >> I think Oracle's going to try to play on both sides. If you appreciate the value of the suite, the IAS working with a pass, working with a Sass, great, we have all those pieces; pick and choose. Larry made it pretty clear. He wanted to go head-to-head on iops, memory and core, and dollars per whatever. Oracle intends to feed on that as well, so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Nothing like a low price to get an IT buyer -- >> Well he said, and the word he called this is interesting, he was overselling in my opinion, I've heard Larry. >> Chuck: Larry? I can't imagine he'd do that. >> Larry was overselling on their earnings call, but I don't think the analysts understand, they don't see the long game. You look down the 20-mile stare, it just hasn't even started for Oracle. >> Larry is a master at the long game in ways that I'm just now starting to appreciate. >> Well, let's be honest. What is the most sticky thing in the industry? Your applications, that's the stickiest thing in the industry. After that, the developer ecosystem and then you get down to the hypervisor, and you get down to the first -- >> Chuck: And then you get to the wires that connect it together and all that kind of stuff. >> But the most sticky thing is the businesses are still run around some of these floor applications. >> Well, that's why I brought up the suite angle, because I think that the developer angle is sticky because agility has proven that not everyone can build a killer app, so for instance, with an HCM there's probably some feature of HCM that is sub-par relative to some genius entrepreneur that eats, breathes that one feature, has an app, that could be integrated into that feature. >> I think that's your point, and with the platform-as-a-service offering, oh, you want to add it, do something different, great. Yes, exactly. >> It's all a continuous development, continuous integration, but that continuity still is close to the application. >> Yeah, ecosystem to me is, I've heard talks about what the developers' market, go-to-market strategy is. If that's in place, Oracle could have a very robust -- >> We're seeing the both the same thing on the hardware and the software. So hardware, build-your-own, is starting to get out of bow, ya know? Less and less popular buying servers and storage and knitting them together. A lot of guys still buy into that, but that market's going down. I think you're going to see the same thing with software and applications. Rather than starting with a blank piece of paper, where are the big chunks of enterprise functionality that I can grab out of the box and build the thing -- >> Reused, preexisting applications. >> Yes, yes! >> Everybody's talking about business capabilities, right? And the idea is that this capability is the things that I have to do to perform the activities to fit my business needs. And those activities are people, and increasingly, software. And being able to grab those capabilites and pick parts of them from the industry and weave them together quickly, continuously sustained, the match with the marketplace, to your point -- >> Well, we're going to have Juan Luzon next, and we're going to go deep on this, but I think -- >> That was a great guy. >> The API economy, if anything, showed us one, security is FUBARed and needs to be fixed fast, and the encryption on a chip thing has been downplayed. I don't know why Fowler's not getting more airtime on that. That's a really huge thing, but the API economy has proven that this ability to pull stuff that someone else has already done, not assembling like a junkyard kind of situation, why build it if someone's got to get it though an API? >> You talk about giving capital management, right? And you know, there's 175 functions, I don't know, some large number of function there, they're fine. I need this one little thing, so I'm just going to extend it, and still do it in such a way that I'm not developing -- >> And a developer who does that becomes a feature in a bigger pie. I mean, he'll make more money, doesn't go out of business, doesn't try to go public. >> So I wanted to share, before we wrapped up, one interesting thought. We all talked about cloud is coming, cloud is coming. I actually got tangible evidence at the beginning of the year that it's here. So a new word was given to me, cloud quotas. Cloud quotas, and it was kind of funny. This is happening mostly in the larger banks. Senior management, executive management, you're a little slow on this cloud thing. Let me help you out. We'll set a strategic objective. Five years from now, how much did we cloud-spend? This year, your cloud quota is 15% between cloud and non-cloud spent. Next year, etc, and I think what we're seeing is that kind of like the gears are starting to rub, between the businesses says, guys, this can't be so hard. Let's get on with it. >> I'm sure your sales guys have cloud quotas, too. >> Different kind of cloud quota. Different kind of cloud quota. >> On that point, 20 years ago, when it became very popular to pay executives on the basis of RONA, return on net assets, it was right about that time that outsourcing got popular. >> Shocking, isn't that, your mess for less, right? >> Sounds like cloud. >> Okay, bottom line, for the folks at home, Oracle's infrastructure stuff that you're involved in is not new, but it's growing now because it didn't have a lot of nurturing. It was always kind of like that back office secret sauce. What's the update, give a quick update. >> We want to give people a strategy for their enterprise applications for cloud. If they want to consume on-prem, great. Engineered system's cloud equivalence. You want to consume off-prem, same set of capabilites and more in our public cloud. You want to consume the public cloud in your data center, that's a cloud machine, and it oughtta be the technology stack and the set of capabilities. Geographical location, the consumption model really doesn't matter, and when we put this in front of large IT shops, and even smaller ones, they're like, this is great. I can build my architecture, I can build my strategy. I don't have to make a cloud decision now, and if I do make one, then I can undo it later. That agility has become very very attractive to people. >> I could invest in options but have a future. >> Chuck Hollis, Senior Vice-President of infrastructure, congratulations, and then Larry Ellison got to the end of his keynote, didn't have a lot of time, but there's a lot of meat on the bone in the keynote, that he kind of, he couldn't hit. Welcome to the cloud, too many product announcements. Welcome to Amazon's world. >> Peter: Seems excited. >> There's a lot of stuff coming down. It was great talking to you guys, thanks for your time. >> Thanks for sharing your insight and the data and the bits here. Here at theCUBE, we're always sending out the packets of content out to the network, live, original content. I'm John for Peter Burris with SiliconANGLE theCUBE. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break. >> Hi, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (bright upbeat music plays) >> Welcome back to Barcelona, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of MWC '23, my name is Dave Vellante. Just left a meeting with the CEO of Cisco, Chuck Robbins, to meet with Jeetu Patel, who's our Executive Vice President and General Manager of security and collaboration at Cisco. Good to see you. >> You never leave a meeting with Chuck Robbins to meet with Jeetu Patel. >> Well, I did. >> That's a bad idea. >> Walked right out. I said, hey, I got an interview to do, right? So, and I'm excited about this. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. >> So, I mean you run such an important part of the business. I mean, obviously the collaboration business but also security. So many changes going on in the security market. Maybe we could start there. I mean, there hasn't been a ton of security talk here Jeetu, because I think it's almost assumed. It was 45 minutes into the keynote yesterday before anybody even mentioned security. >> Huh. >> Right? And so, but it's the most important topic in the enterprise IT world. And obviously is important here. So why is it you think that it's not the first topic that people mention. >> You know, it's a complicated subject area and it's intimidating. And actually that's one of the things that the industry screwed up on. Where we need to simplify security so it actually gets to be relatable for every person on the planet. But, if you think about what's happening in security, it's not just important for business it's critical infrastructure that if you had a breach, you know lives are cost now. Because hospitals could go down, your water supply could go down, your electricity could go down. And so it's one of these things that we have to take pretty seriously. And, it's 51% of all breaches happen because of negligence, not because of malicious intent. >> It's that low. Interesting. I always- >> Someone else told me the same thing, that they though it'd be higher, yeah. >> I always say bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. >> Every single time. >> You can't beat it. But, you know, it's funny- >> Jeetu: Every single time. >> Back, the earlier part of last decade, you could see that security was becoming a board level issue. It became, it was on the agenda every quarter. And, I remember doing some research at the time, and I asked, I was interviewing Robert Gates, former Defense Secretary, and I asked him, yeah, but we're getting attacked but don't we have the best offense? Can't we have the best technology? He said, yeah but we have so much critical infrastructure the risks to United States are higher. So we have to be careful about how we use security as an offensive weapon, you know? And now you're seeing the future of war involves security and what's going on in Ukraine. It's a whole different ballgame. >> It is, and the scales always tip towards the adversary, not towards the defender, because you have to be right every single time. They have to be right once. >> Yeah. And, to the other point, about bad user behavior. It's going now beyond the board level, to it's everybody's responsibility. >> That's right. >> And everybody's sort of aware of it, everybody's been hacked. And, that's where it being such a complicated topic is problematic. >> It is, and it's actually, what got us this far will not get us to where we need to get to if we don't simplify security radically. You know? The experience has to be almost invisible. And what used to be the case was sophistication had to get to a certain level, for efficacy to go up. But now, that sophistication has turned to complexity. And there's an inverse relationship between complexity and efficacy. So the simpler you make security, the more effective it gets. And so I'll give you an example. We have this great kind of innovation we've done around passwordless, right? Everyone hates passwords. You shouldn't have passwords in 2023. But, when you get to passwordless security, not only do you reduce a whole lot of friction for the user, you actually make the system safer. And that's what you need to do, is you have to make it simpler while making it more effective. And, I think that's what the future is going to hold. >> Yeah, and CISOs tell me that they're, you know zero trust before the pandemic was like, yeah, yeah zero trust. And now it's like a mandate. >> Yeah. >> Every CISO you talk to says, yes we're implementing a zero trust architecture. And a big part of that is that, if they can confirm zero trust, they can get to market a lot faster with revenue generating or critical projects. And many projects as we know are being pushed back, >> Yeah. >> you know? 'Cause of the macro. But, projects that drive revenue and value they want to accelerate, and a zero trust confirmation allows people to rubber stamp it and go faster. >> And the whole concept of zero trust is least privileged access, right? But what we want to make sure that we get to is continuous assessment of least privileged access, not just a one time at login. >> Dave: 'Cause things change so frequently. >> So, for example, if you happen to be someone that's logged into the system and now you start doing some anomalous behavior that doesn't sound like Dave, we want to be able to intercept, not just do it at the time that you're authenticating Dave to come in. >> So you guys got a good business. I mentioned the macro before. >> Yeah. >> The big theme is consolidating redundant vendors. So a company with a portfolio like Cisco's obviously has an advantage there. You know, you guys had great earnings. Palo Alto is another company that can consolidate. Tom Gillis, great pickup. Guy's amazing, you know? >> Love Tom. >> Great respect. Just had a little webinar session with him, where he was geeking out with the analyst and so- >> Yeah, yeah. >> Learned a lot there. Now you guys have some news, at the event event with Mercedes? >> We do. >> Take us through that, and I want to get your take on hybrid work and what's happening there. But what's going on with Mercedes? >> Yeah so look, it all actually stems from the hybrid work story, which is the future is going to be hybrid, people are going to work in mixed mode. Sometimes you'll be in the office, sometimes at home, sometimes somewhere in the middle. One of the places that people are working more and more from is their cars. And connected cars are getting to be a reality. And in fact, cars sometimes become an extension of your home office. And many a times I have found myself in a parking lot, because I didn't have enough time to get home and I was in a parking lot taking a conference call. And so we've made that section easier, because we have now partnered with Mercedes. And they aren't the first partner, but they're a very important partner where we are going to have Webex available, through the connected car, natively in Mercedes. >> Ah, okay. So I could take a call, I can do it all the time. I find good service, pull over, got to take the meeting. >> Yeah. >> I don't want to be driving. I got to concentrate. >> That's right. >> You know, or sometimes, I'll have the picture on and it's not good. >> That's right. >> Okay, so it'll be through the console, and all through the internet? >> It'll be through the console. And many people ask me like, how's safety going to work over that? Because you don't want to do video calls while you're driving. Exactly right. So when you're driving, the video automatically turns off. And you'll have audio going on, just like a conference call. But the moment you stop and put it in park, you can have video turned on. >> Now, of course the whole hybrid work trend, we, seems like a long time ago but it doesn't, you know? And it's really changed the security dynamic as well, didn't it? >> It has, it has. >> I mean, immediately you had to go protect new endpoints. And those changes, I felt at the time, were permanent. And I think it's still the case, but there's an equilibrium now happening. People as they come back to the office, you see a number of companies are mandating back to work. Maybe the central offices, or the headquarters, were underfunded. So what's going on out there in terms of that balance? >> Well firstly, there's no unanimous consensus on the way that the future is going to be, except that it's going to be hybrid. And the reason I say that is some companies mandate two days a week, some companies mandate five days a week, some companies don't mandate at all. Some companies are completely remote. But whatever way you go, you want to make sure that regardless of where you're working from, people can have an inclusive experience. You know? And, when they have that experience, you want to be able to work from a managed device or an unmanaged device, from a corporate network or from a Starbucks, from on the road or stationary. And whenever you do any of those things, we want to make sure that security is always handled, and you don't have to worry about that. And so the way that we say it is the company that created the VPN, which is Cisco, is the one that's going to kill it. Because what we'll do is we'll make it simple enough so that you don't, you as a user, never have to worry about what connection you're going to use to dial in to what app. You will have one, seamless way to dial into any application, public application, private application, or directly to the internet. >> Yeah, I got a love, hate with my VPN. I mean, it's protecting me, but it's in the way a lot. >> It's going to be simple as ever. >> Do you have kids? >> I do, I have a 12 year old daughter. >> Okay, so not quite high school age yet. She will be shortly. >> No, but she's already, I'm not looking forward to high school days, because she has a very, very strong sense of debate and she wins 90% of the arguments. >> So when my kids were that age, I've got four kids, but the local high school banned Wikipedia, they can't use Wikipedia for research. Many colleges, I presume high schools as well, they're banning Chat GPT, can't use it. Now at the same time, I saw recently on Medium a Wharton school professor said he's mandating Chat GPT to teach his students how to prompt in progressively more sophisticated prompts, because the future is interacting with machines. You know, they say in five years we're all going to be interacting in some way, shape, or form with AI. Maybe we already are. What's the intersection between AI and security? >> So a couple very, very consequential things. So firstly on Chat GPT, the next generation skill is going to be to learn how to go out and have the right questions to ask, which is the prompt revolution that we see going on right now. But if you think about what's happening in security, and there's a few areas which are, firstly 3,500 hundred vendors in this space. On average, most companies have 50 to 70 vendors in security. Not a single vendor owns more than 10% of the market. You take out a couple vendors, no one owns more than 5%. Highly fractured market. That's a problem. Because it's untenable for companies to go out and manage 70 policy engines. And going out and making sure that there's no contention. So as you move forward, one of the things that Chat GPT will be really good for is it's fundamentally going to change user experiences, for how software gets built. Because rather than it being point and click, it's going to be I'm going to provide an instruction and it's going to tell me what to do in natural language. Imagine Dave, when you joined a company if someone said, hey give Dave all the permissions that he needs as a direct report to Chuck. And instantly you would get all of the permissions. And it would actually show up in a screen that says, do you approve? And if you hit approve, you're done. The interfaces of the future will get more natural language kind of dominated. The other area that you'll see is the sophistication of attacks and the surface area of attacks is increasing quite exponentially. And we no longer can handle this with human scale. You have to handle it in machine scale. So detecting breaches, making sure that you can effectively and quickly respond in real time to the breaches, and remediate those breaches, is all going to happen through AI and machine learning. >> So, I agree. I mean, just like Amazon turned the data center into an API, I think we're now going to be interfacing with technology through human language. >> That's right. >> I mean I think it's a really interesting point you're making. Now, from a security standpoint as well, I mean, the state of the art today in my email is be careful, this person's outside your organization. I'm like, yeah I know. So it's a good warning sign, but it's really not automated in any way. So two part question. One is, can AI help? You know, with the phishing, obviously it can, but the bad guys have AI too. >> Yeah. >> And they're probably going to be smarter than I am about using it. >> Yeah, and by the way, Talos is our kind of threat detection and response >> Yes. >> kind of engine. And, they had a great kind of piece that came out recently where they talked about this, where Chat GPT, there is going to be more sophistication of the folks that are the bad actors, the adversaries in using Chat GPT to have more sophisticated phishing attacks. But today it's not something that is fundamentally something that we can't handle just yet. But you still need to do the basic hygiene. That's more important. Over time, what you will see is attacks will get more bespoke. And in order, they'll get more sophisticated. And, you will need to have better mechanisms to know that this was actually not a human being writing that to you, but it was actually a machine pretending to be a human being writing something to you. And that you'll have to be more clever about it. >> Oh interesting. >> And so, you will see attacks get more bespoke and we'll have to get smarter and smarter about it. >> The other thing I wanted to ask you before we close is you're right on. I mean you take the top security vendors and they got a single digit market share. And it's like it's untenable for organizations, just far too many tools. We have a partner at ETR, they do quarterly survey research and one of the things they do is survey emerging technology companies. And when we look at in the security sector just the number of emerging technology companies that are focused on cybersecurity is as many as there are out there already. And so, there's got to be consolidation. Maybe that's through M & A. I mean, what do you think happens? Are company's going to go out of business? There's going to be a lot of M & A? You've seen a lot of companies go private. You know, the big PE companies are sucking up all these security companies and may be ready to spit 'em out and go back public. How do you see the landscape? You guys are obviously an inquisitive company. What are your thoughts on that? >> I think there will be a little bit of everything. But the biggest change that you'll see is a shift that's going to happen with an integrated platform, rather than point solution vendors. So what's going to happen is the market's going to consolidate towards very few, less than a half a dozen, integrated platforms. We believe Cisco is going to be one. Microsoft will be one. There'll be others over there. But these, this platform will essentially be able to provide a unified kind of policy engine across a multitude of different services to protect multiple different entities within the organization. And, what we found is that platform will also be something that'll provide, through APIs, the ability for third parties to be able to get their technology incorporated in, and their telemetry ingested. So we certainly intend to do that. We don't believe, we are not arrogant enough to think that every single new innovation will be built by us. When there's someone else who has built that, we want to make sure that we can ingest that telemetry as well, because the real enemy is not the competitor. The real enemy is the adversary. And we all have to get together, so that we can keep humanity safe. >> Do you think there's been enough collaboration in the industry? I mean- >> Jeetu: Not nearly enough. >> We've seen companies, security companies try to monetize private data before, instead of maybe sharing it with competitors. And so I think the industry can do better there. >> Well I think the industry can do better. And we have this concept called the security poverty line. And the security poverty line is the companies that fall below the security poverty line don't have either the influence or the resources or the know how to keep themselves safe. And when they go unsafe, everyone else that communicates with them also gets that exposure. So it is in our collective interest for all of us to make sure that we come together. And, even if Palo Alto might be a competitor of ours, we want to make sure that we invite them to say, let's make sure that we can actually exchange telemetry between our companies. And we'll continue to do that with as many companies that are out there, because actually that's better for the market, that's better for the world. >> The enemy of the enemy is my friend, kind of thing. >> That's right. >> Now, as it relates to, because you're right. I mean I, I see companies coming up, oh, we do IOT security. I'm like, okay, but what about cloud security? Do you that too? Oh no, that's somebody else. But, so that's another stove pipe. >> That's a huge, huge advantage of coming with someone like Cisco. Because we actually have the entire spectrum, and the broadest portfolio in the industry of anyone else. From the user, to the device, to the network, to the applications, we provide the entire end-to-end story for security, which then has the least amount of cracks that you can actually go out and penetrate through. The biggest challenges that happen in security is you've got way too many policy engines with way too much contention between the policies from these different systems. And eventually there's a collision course. Whereas with us, you've actually got a broad portfolio that operates as one platform. >> We were talking about the cloud guys earlier. You mentioned Microsoft. They're obviously a big competitor in the security space. >> Jeetu: But also a great partner. >> So that's right. To my opinion, the cloud has been awesome as a first line of defense if you will. But the shared responsibility model it's different for each cloud, right? So, do you feel that those guys are working together or will work together to actually improve? 'Cause I don't see that yet. >> Yeah so if you think about, this is where we feel like we have a structural advantage in this, because what does a company like Cisco become in the future? I think as the world goes multicloud and hybrid cloud, what'll end up happening is there needs to be a way, today all the CSPs provide everything from storage to computer network, to security, in their own stack. If we can abstract networking and security above them, so that we can acquire and steer any and all traffic with our service providers and steer it to any of those CSPs, and make sure that the security policy transcends those clouds, you would actually be able to have the public cloud economics without the public cloud lock-in. >> That's what we call super cloud Jeetu. It's securing the super cloud. >> Yeah. >> Hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> Really appreciate you coming on our editorial program. >> Such a pleasure. >> All right, great to see you again. >> Cheers. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante with David Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We'll be back, right after this short break from MWC '23 live, in the Fira, in Barcelona. (bright music resumes) (music fades out)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

>>Hello everyone. Welcome to the Super Cloud Event preview. I'm John Forry, host of the Cube, and with Dave Valante, host of the popular Super cloud events. This is Super Cloud two preview. I'm joined by industry leader and Cube alumni, Victoria Vigo, vice president of klos Cross Cloud Services at VMware. Vittorio. Great to see you. We're here for the preview of Super Cloud two on January 17th, virtual event, live stage performance, but streamed out to the audience virtually. We're gonna do a preview. Thanks for coming in. >>My pleasure. Always glad to be here. >>It's holiday time. We had the first super cloud on in August prior to VMware, explore North America prior to VMware, explore Europe prior to reinvent. We've been through that, but right now, super Cloud has got momentum. Super Cloud two has got some success. Before we dig into it, let's take a step back and set the table. What is Super Cloud and why is important? Why are people buzzing about it? Why is it a thing? >>Look, we have been in the cloud now for like 10, 15 years and the cloud is going strong and I, I would say that going cloud first was deliberate and strategic in most cases. In some cases the, the developer was going for the path of risk resistance, but in any sizable company, this caused the companies to end up in a multi-cloud world where 85% of the companies out there use two or multiple clouds. And with that comes what we call cloud chaos, because each cloud brings their own management tools, development tools, security. And so that increase the complexity and cost. And so we believe that it's time to usher a new era in cloud computing, which we, you call the super cloud. We call it cross cloud services, which allows our customers to have a single way to build, manage, secure, and access any application across any cloud. Lowering the cost and simplifying the environment. Since >>Dave Ante and I introduced and rift on the concept of Supercloud, as we talked about at reinvent last year, a lot has happened. Supercloud one, it was in August, but prior to that, great momentum in the industry. Great conversation. People are loving it, they're hating it, which means it's got some traction. Berkeley has come on board as with a position paper. They're kind of endorsing it. They call it something different. You call it cross cloud services, whatever it is. It's kind of the same theme we're seeing. And so the industry has recognized something is happening that's different than what Cloud one was or the first generation of cloud. Now we have something different. This Super Cloud two in January. This event has traction with practitioners, customers, big name brands, Sachs, fifth Avenue, Warner, media Financial, mercury Financial, other big names are here. They're leaning in. They're excited. Why the traction in the customer's industry converts over to, to the customer traction. Why is it happening? You, you get a lot of data. >>Well, in, in Super Cloud one, it was a vendor fest, right? But these vendors are smart people that get their vision from where, from the customers. This, this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. We all talk to customers and we tend to lean on the early adopters and the early adopters of the cloud are the ones that are telling us, we now are in a place where the complexity is too much. The cost is ballooning. We're going towards slow down potentially in the economy. We need to get better economics out of, of our cloud. And so every single customers I talked to today, or any sizable company as this problem, the developers have gone off, built all these applications, and now the business is coming to the operators and asking, where are my applications? Are they performing? What is the security posture? And how do we do compliance? And so now they're realizing we need to do something about this or it is gonna be unmanageable. >>I wanna go to a clip I pulled out from the, our video data lake and the cube. If we can go to that clip, it's Chuck Whitten Dell at a keynote. He was talking about what he calls multi-cloud by default, not by design. This is a state of the, of the industry. If we're gonna roll that clip, and I wanna get your reaction to that. >>Well, look, customers have woken up with multiple clouds, you know, multiple public clouds. On-premise clouds increasingly as the edge becomes much more a reality for customers clouds at the edge. And so that's what we mean by multi-cloud by default. It's not yet been designed strategically. I think our argument yesterday was it can be, and it should be, it is a very logical place for architecture to land because ultimately customers want the innovation across all of the hyperscale public clouds. They will see workloads and use cases where they wanna maintain an on-premise cloud. On-premise clouds are not going away. I mentioned edge Cloud, so it should be strategic. It's just not today. It doesn't work particularly well today. So when we say multi-cloud, by default we mean that's the state of the world. Today, our goal is to bring multi-cloud by design, as you heard. Yeah, I >>Mean, I, okay, Vittorio, that's, that's the head of Dell Technologies president. He obvious he runs it. Michael Dell's still around, but you know, he's the leader. This is a interesting observation. You know, he's not a customer. We have some customer equips we'll go to as well, but by default it kind of happened not by design. So we're now kind of in a zoom out issue where, okay, I got this environment just landed on me. What, what is the, what's your reaction to that clip of how multi-cloud has become present in, in everyone's on everyone's plate right now to deal with? Yeah, >>I it is, it is multi-cloud by default, I would call it by accident. We, we really got there by accident. I think now it's time to make it a strategic asset because look, we're using multiple cloud for a reason, because all these hyperscaler bring tremendous innovation that we want to leverage. But I strongly believe that in it, especially history repeat itself, right? And so if you look at the history of it, as was always when a new level of obstruction that simplify things, that we got the next level of innovation at the lower cost, you know, from going from c plus plus to Visual basic, going from integrating application at the bits of by layer to SOA and then web services. It's, it's only when we simplify the environment that we can go faster and lower cost. And the multi-cloud is ready for that level of obstruction today. >>You know, you've made some good points. You know, developers went crazy building great apps. Now they got, they gotta roll it out and operationalize it globally. A lot of compliance issues going on. The costs are going up. We got an economic challenge, but also agility with the cloud. So using cloud and or hybrid, you can get better agility. And also moving to the cloud, it's kind of still slow. Okay, so I get that at reinvent this year and at VMware explorer we were observing and we reported that you're seeing a transition to a new kind of ecosystem partner. Ones that aren't just ISVs anymore. You have ISVs, independent software vendors, but you got the emergence of bigger players that just, they got platforms, they have their own ecosystems. So you're seeing ecosystems on top of ecosystems where, you know, MongoDB CEO and the Databricks CEO both told me, we're not an isv, we're a platform built on a cloud. So this new kind of super cloudlike thing is going on. Why should someone pay attention to the super cloud movement? We're on two, we're gonna continue to do these out in the open. Anyone can participate. Why should people pay attention to this? Why should they come to the event? Why is this important? Is this truly an inflection point? And if they do pay attention, what should they pay attention to? >>I would pay attention to two things. If you are customers that are now starting to realize that you have a multi-cloud problem and the costs are getting outta control, look at what the leading vendors are saying, connect the dots with the early adopters and some of the customers that we are gonna have at Super Cloud two, and use those learning to not fall into the same trap. So I, I'll give you an example. I was talking to a Fortune 50 in Europe in my latest trip, and this is an a CIO that is telling me >>We build all these applications and now for compliance reason, the business is coming to me, I don't even know where they are, right? And so what I was telling him, so look, there are other customers that are already there. What did they do? They built a platform engineering team. What is the platform? Engineering team is a, is an operation team that understands how developers build modern applications and lays down the foundation across multiple clouds. So the developers can be developers and do their thing, which is writing code. But now you as a cio, as a, as a, as a governing body, as a security team can have the guardrail. So do you know that these applications are performing at a lower cost and are secure and compliant? >>Patura, you know, it's really encouraging and, and love to get your thoughts on this is one is the general consensus of industry leaders. I talked to like yourself in the round is the old way was soft complexity with more complexity. The cloud demand simplicity, you mentioned abstraction layer. This is our next inflection point. It's gotta be simpler and it's gotta be easy and it's gotta be performant. That's the table stakes of the cloud. What's your thoughts on this next wave of simplicity versus complexity? Because again, abstraction layers take away complexity, they should make it simpler. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, so I'll give you few examples. One, on the development side and runtime. You, you one would think that Kubernetes will solve all the problems you have Kubernetes everywhere, just look at, but every cloud has a different distribution of Kubernetes, right? So for example, at VMware with tansu, we create a single place that allows you to deploy that any Kubernetes environment. But now you have one place to set your policies. We take care of the differences between this, this system. The second area is management, right? So once you have all everything deployed, how do you get a single object model that tells you where your stuff is and how it's performing, and then apply policies to it as well. So these are two areas and security and so on and so forth. So the idea is that figure out what you can abstract and make common across cloud. Make that simple and put it in one place while always allowing the developers to go underneath and use the differentiated features for innovation. >>Yeah, one of the areas I'm excited, I want to get your thoughts of too is, we haven't talked about this in the past, but it, I'll throw it out there. I think the, the new AI coming out chat, G P T and other things like lens, you see it and see new kinds of AI coming that's gonna be right in the heavy lifting opportunity to make things easier with AI and automation. I think AI will be a big factor in super cloud and, and cross cloud. What's your thoughts? >>Well, the one way to look at AI is, is one of the main, main services that you would want out of a multi-cloud, right? You want eventually, right now Google seems to have an edge, but you know, the competition creates, you know, innovation. So later on you wanna use something from Azure or from or from Oracle or something that, so you want at some point that is gonna be prone every single service in in the cloud is gonna be prone to obstruction and simplification. And I, I'm just excited about to see >>What book, I can't wait for the chat services to write code automatically for us. Well, >>They >>Do, they do. They're doing it now. They do. >>Oh, the other day, somebody, you know that I do this song par this for. So for fun sometimes. And somebody the other day said, ask the AI to write a parody song for multi-cloud. And so I have the lyrics stay >>Tuned. I should do that from my blog post. Hey, write a blog post on this January 17th, Victoria, thanks for coming in, sharing the preview bottom line. Why should people come? Why is it important? What's your final kind of takeaway? Billboard message >>History is repeat itself. It goes to three major inflection points, right? We had the inflection point with the cloud and the people that got left behind, they were not as competitive as the people that got on top o of this wave. The new wave is the super cloud, what we call cross cloud services. So if you are a customer that is experiencing this problem today, tune in to to hear from other customers in, in your same space. If you are behind, tune in to avoid the, the, the, the mistakes and the, the shortfalls of this new wave. And so that you can use multi-cloud to accelerate your business and kick butt in the future. >>All right. Kicking kick your names and kicking butt. Okay, we're here on J January 17th. Super Cloud two. Momentum continues. We'll be super cloud three. There'll be super cloud floor. More and more open conversations. Join the community, join the conversation. It's open. We want more voices. We want more, more industry. We want more customers. It's happening. A lot of momentum. Victoria, thank you for your time. Thank you. Okay. I'm John Farer, host of the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>>The Cube presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >>Welcome back everyone. Happy afternoon. It's Lisa Martin and Dave Valante of the Cube. We are live at MGM Grand. This is Palo Alto Ignite 22, our second day of coverage. Dave, we've had some amazing conversations, as we always do on the queue, but cybersecurity one of my favorite topics. So interesting to hear what Palo Alto Networks is doing, how it's differentiating itself and how it's ecosystem is >>Growing. Yeah, well one of the things I always, I often use ServiceNow as a reference example. I go back to 2013, had a kind of a tiny ecosystem and then sort of watched it grow. And one of those key signs was when the global system integrators actually began to lean in Accenture, obviously world class, one of the, you know, definitely in the top, you know, they talk about top five QBs, Accenture, you know, top five GSI easily. >>Yep. So, and in fact, Accenture, we've got Rex Stex in here, senior managing director at Accenture Security. You guys have been the GSI partner of the year for Palo Alto Networks for four years in a row, six years plus strong partnership. Give us a little flavor and history of the pan of the Palo Alto partnership with et cetera. >>I think, you know, we started early, right? And I think as they've evolved, we've evolved our partnership with them and as they've gone, you know, to more of a software footprint with, you know, around cloud security and network security and sassy, we've, we've seen a lot of growth and we're super excited about the opportunity that's ahead of us and the meaningful outcomes that we've been providing our clients as it relates to, you know, vendor consolidation, toll consolidation, tech debt reduction. You know, there's a lot of opportunity here to simplify our clients' lives with them. And that's something we're super excited about. >>Simplification, consolidation, been a theme of the last couple of days. Talk about some of the joint accomplishments that you guys have achieved. I know that you developed a lot of offers across all of Palo Alto Network's, GTMs, what are some of the highlights that come to mind? I >>Think one of the things that we're most excited about, you know, that being client specific is what we've been able to do on, on, on the network side with sasi and, and zero trust, network access. You know, as when Covid hit, there was a lot of change that happened with remote workforce and, you know, clients couldn't log in because their VPNs were crashing left and right. And so we were able to, you know, go in and help stand up, you know, this, you know, zero trust network infrastructure and help our clients get back online and get their employees back to work in a productive manner. And then it's evolved with the hybrid work model over time. And so it's, it's been a, that's probably the most gratifying cause there was a real crisis at, at a certain point in time, you know, a couple years ago were >>There Rex, were there unintended consequences of that, you know, rapid, we were forced, you know, the forced march to digital in terms of just multiple tools, plugging holes, and then sort of stepping back, you know, post isolation economy saying, okay, hey, we got through this, but now we need to take a new direction, new >>Strategy. I think that there, there isn't an intended consequence if you look at, most clients have, I saw a number 76, we counted as around 80 different security vendors and tools that they managed because a lot of people went and went after best of breed type capabilities. And, and so what we've seen now is, is the need to, you know, rationalize that, you know, their, their infrastructure and their, and their capability and, and consolidate and reduce that and, and move to, you know, more of what I would call platform providers. Cause if you may have, when you have 80 products, you have 80 integrations, 80 points of failure, and it gets very complex and, you know, there's a lot of finger pointing. And so as we're starting to see clients take a step back and say, Hey, look, if I, you know, spend the time to, you know, I call it modernization, but you know, modernize my security infrastructure and footprint focused around, you know, automation, orchestration, leveraging, you know, true ml and I know there's are buzzwords, but, you know, but you know, using 'em in, in, in the proper fashion, right? >>They, they can, you know, reduce that footprint, save a bunch of money, right? And, and, and drive that cost savings and then help scale their business. Cuz you have all these different vendors and what security is typically in the digital footprint is the slowdown, right? We, we've typically been the bottleneck in the past. And what we're seeing with, with, with what, you know, we've been very focused on is helping our clients scale their security footprints and their infrastructure and, you know, through automation orchestration, I i, I always say some folks do it your mess for less with labor arbitrage and bodies, but they're not enough security people in the world to do this. And so we're very focused on automation and orchestration and driving that into, into the market. >>Yeah. So you don't want to be in the business of, of filling those holes with labor. >>Exactly. You >>Want to actually get paid for outcomes. >>A hundred percent. And everything we've done is we've tried to simplify things not only for, you know, big Accenture, but even for our clients so that, you know, we can be focused on business outcomes, not necessarily technology outcomes. Cuz doing technology for the sake of technology. Is that unintended consequence that you described earlier, >>Speaking of transformation and outcomes I should say, what are you hearing most from CIOs and CISOs in terms of what they need now to be able to transform, to deliver the business outcomes so that they can become secure data companies regardless of industry? Yep. >>I think the, the biggest thing we're seeing right now is the need to, you know, leverage true automation and orchestration. We have to break the headcount model. There's not enough security professionals in the world to do, you know, to solve the world's problems. In order to scale that, you know, it's one of the reasons we're, you know, partnering with Palo Alto is because of, you know, the capabilities and the investments they've made in innovation to help drive that automation and orchestration through, you know, numerous capabilities from stock transformation to to to sassy cloud security, et cetera. But our clients need scale. They need to be able to go fast and net pace and they need to, they need to do it with confidence securely. And that, that's one of the big focuses. But the other focus is, is we're starting to see a need to, you know, vendor consolidation in the market. You've seen the acquisitions, I'm sure you've talked to people in over the last couple days. You know, there's, there's a, a tremendous amount of consolidation going around. And what our clients, you know, are asking for is, Hey, I need to reduce the number of vendors I interact with. I need to simplify my infrastructure, I need to focus on automation and, and orchestration from that perspective, >>What's happening with multi-cloud? What are you hearing from from customers? You know, we hear a lot of the, the, the conversations about, oh it's, you know, it's, and I agree by the way, multi-cloud is kind of a symptom of multi-vendor, you know, Chuck Whittens thing about multi-cloud by default versus design, you know, it's good, good line and I think rings true, but, but what a customer's telling you in terms of the real challenges generally and then specifically around security. >>I think it's, you know, each cloud service product has their own security capabilities and security models and, and, and being able to train the people to be able to manage those different models. I think that's where, you know, tools like, you know, Prisma Cloud for instance come in and help clients be able to manage the security and compliance of those infrastructures in, in a way to do that. And then to be able to manage applications security consistently, right? It's not just the cloud itself, but it's actually the applications that may, you know, cross, you know, be for, for resiliency but you know, be in, you know, multi-cloud, you know, multiple clouds and being able to make sure you have consistent security across those. And I think, you know, one of the things that it's permeated is, is just the, with data and identity and, and you know, cloud infrastructure and tolerance management, it's been a big problem cuz it's like the wild, wild west. I always look, when I look at identity and the cloud and how it's done, it, it looks like 1995 identity. It's, it's, it's ridiculously backwards. And so, you know, we've seen things like, you know, keem that have come into play to help manage those relationships and, and simplify it across multiple clouds consistently, if that makes sense. >>Yep. >>You, you mentioned Prisma Cloud most recently Accenture and Palo Alto developed the Secure Cloud Express. Correct. Can you talk to us a little bit about what that is and what outcomes is it gonna enable? Yeah, >>So great question and we're pretty excited about this cuz what we did with that was we manage cloud, you know, our cloud environments for numerous customers. So we've developed hundreds of policies that, you know, we implemented in Prisma Cloud to manage, you know, multiple clients, our internal infrastructure. And what we did was we said, well, most of our clients have to build those from scratch. So what we said is we will come in, in the best of week of time and come in and, and do a data-driven exercise to show our clients, you know, where where they sit from a, from a security perspective as it relates leveraging Prisma cloud and, and those policies that we've created. And what, what that has led to is another step, which is where we're focused on auto remediation. So, you know, when you, when you get, when you get the findings, then what do you do with them, right? If you have hundreds or thousands in some cases we've had clients with 1100 findings and they just sit there and they go, whoa, you know, so to speak. And so what we've done is we try to take those highest, most frequent findings and build securities code to auto remediate those for clients so they can choose to implement that and work down those, you know, findings very quickly, which helps, you know, drive more value out of, out of their prisma cloud >>Purchases. Accenture obviously has deep industry expertise around the globe. What are you seeing in terms of industries actually? So as they digitize not just their IT transformation but a business transformation, there are starting to see companies, financial services in particular bring their business to their cloud, sify their business. And specifically I'm interested in what's happening at the edge with operations technology. We just talked about healthcare and and medical devices. What's happening there? How connected or disconnected is that to the rest of the estate, the multi-cloud on-prem, et cetera? I >>Mean, I think OT is, is fairly disconnected, right? Sure. From, from that perspective, obviously, but I, I, I think what we're starting to see is an uptick, you know, on, I think secure edge and Sassy will come to OT cause it's a better way. Because what happens is if someone, you know, gets into the network, they can traverse it, right? And if they can apply those zero trust principles to ot, which is you're talking to people that have been, you know, wearing hard hats Yeah. And engineers, that's a big shift for them. And so, but I think that you'll start to see that play more prevalence, you know, with the industries like, you know, financial services, we're seeing a huge uptick in cloud adoption, right? They were, they were slow to do it, but now they're, they're going at pace and faster than most, right? Yeah, sure. And I think, you know, healthcare is a, is another big one where we've seen a lot of migration and a lot of need for multi-cloud. Cuz you know, some, they may be running their analytics on, you know, Google and, and their workloads on Azure, right? Or aws. And so you're starting to see a lot of people leveraging the best of what each cloud provider does well >>From that. And, and just an aside on that Palo Alto survey, we saw construction was one of the hardest hit industries. Yeah. Which I, I was like, what? And then of course it's because they're not really focused on security. They're focused on building stuff. No, >>It's really interesting. We're working with a large builder, I can't say the name, but one of the things that they're looking to do is, you know, they're moving to the cloud and they're building the capability to manage some of the, you know, largest skyscrapers in the world, but also manage the OT sensors and also do selling that creating another business, not only just managing those buildings, but managing other people's buildings for them and ha and selling security as a service for that because they built that capability around their devices and, and, and switches, hvac, et cetera. Do, >>Do you think that because I mean, you know, the operations technology, they're engineers and they're hardcore, like, don't touch my stuff. Exactly. And so do you feel like as, I mean I know that business has kind of done a reach around everything, you know, be becoming connected, but do you feel like they're gonna be more on top of it then, then, then sort of the, the broad commercial market has been? Or is it gonna be wild West all over again? >>My hope is that, you know, us as gsi, you know, my fellow GSIs, that we will help our clients make the better decisions this time around and, and not go to the wild, wild west. And you know, we see a lot of it in manufacturing, you know, if you saw, you know, with the, you know, the invasion Ukraine, you know, one of the big groups that was hit was manufacturing, right? There was factory shut down all over the world, you know, and, and so, you know, and that is an OT environment, but I, you know, what we've seen is them are, you know, those clients take more serious steps to protect those environments cuz they're on, you know, windows 10 servers running, you know, large machines. So we're starting to see a lot more care and feeding in into those environments as well. >>Can I ask you a question about the conversations that you're having? That survey that Dave mentioned, it's was released yesterday. There's a board behind us, what's next in cyber? That was the survey and amazing data that came from it. Like 96% of organizations have been hit by at least one attack in the last year. They were surprised that the number was that high, but we know that no industry, no company is safe. But one of the things that the survey found that, that surprised me was that we always say, oh, security is a board level conversation. We know that to some degree. But what they found was lack of alignment between the board and the executive level. In your Accenture's relationships, I know you guys have deep relationships across organizations and their boards. Can you help bring the board together with the executives and, and really not just talk about cybersecurity, but really develop a cybersecurity transformation strategy that actually delivers resilience? >>Yeah, no ab absolutely. And we've, we, we actually took a step back and, and reorganized our business this last year. And one of those areas that we focused on was within strategy and the C-suite agenda, right? And we actually published looking at gia, it was either the CEO handbook, I think it's what we called it, but they helped them and board be able to, you know, drive more meaningful conversations that relates to risk and and whatnot. And so we're very focused on that right now. And it's, we need to up-level our conversations within the organization. Cause even the buyers in these large, you know, two years ago was mainly the cso, now we're dealing with the cio, CTOs, cfo because these are, you know, meaningful business conversations, right? That are driving business outcomes and security needs to be a business enabler, not, not a a, a bottleneck >>Is the chief data officer starting to emerge as, as we see, you know, Nikesh said yesterday in his keynote and we talked about it with him when he was here, security is a data problem. >>Yep. It is. It's a huge data problem. And we're starting to, you know, I think we've talked a lot about zero trust, but zero trust data is, is a, is a significant problem, right? Because that you talk about the wild, wild west is we see clients that have people that have in, you know, they, they have access to, you know, what we call dev development environment data, right? But then you find out that they can hop four levels over into production data and this been exposed to, you know, the wrong people, you know, not focused on that least privileged aspect. I think data's a real problem, you know, per na kesha's statement in the cloud. It's something that really needs to be addressed. And I think we're starting to see a lot of innovation around that area. Cuz what typical data security has always been, I have all these problems, it creates, I call it noise, right? I got thousands of findings and then just, you know, need just sit there and they go, what do I do? Right? It's too much. And so I think there, there's gonna be more intelligence around that and more, you know, what I call auto remediation, right? Being able to remediate those findings quickly from from that >>Perspective. I've been watching this board behind us. Yeah. It's this what's next in cyber. And people come in and they write, it's just been growing, you know, all week and somebody just wrote sock transformation. Yeah. We were just sort of talking about earlier what, what, in your estimation, what percent of organizations that you target. I understand that you're not going after the, you know, mom and pop organizations, but what percent of that, you know, fat middle and the tip of the pyramid, that a euro, that's your sweet spot. What percent of those organizations don't have a sock? >>I mean, most every organization has a sock. You know, I talked to, you know, CISOs of large financial service organization, they said, do we even need a sock anymore? It could be a virtual sock so to speak, but I think, you know, am was SOC transformation. I think we could potentially head to something like that. But you know, but what's really been strange is there's been, you know, what we call soar, right? Security, you know, orchestration, automation, whatever. And what another, >>Another acronym, their >>Acronym that I security that I might brain is >>Hold apologize. >>But you know, they've, people have never really driven the value out of it because they build these automation playbooks and, and for one company to do it and build 20 of 'em or 30 of 'em to ha it doesn't pay off in the long run. And what we're starting to see is people, you know, bring to the table more crowdsource these capabilities so that they can scale those sock transformations. Cause it's really about, you know, orchestration and automation. That's where, you know, nirvana comes in because it's not about people with headsets on looking at, you know, 20 screens. It's not helpful, right? The humans, we make mistakes. And so if we can automate as much of that as possible, get rid of the false positives, leverage AI and and ML to do that. And I think we're starting to see, you know, what I would call more advanced AI and ml. I think in the early days in security, AI and ML was very nascent and, and, and now you're starting to see, you know, more powerful concepts come in better learning, better outcomes out of that. >>Well, it was a lot of modeling in the cloud still is, but it's increasingly going toward real time inference and that's, you know, game changing. >>Agreed. >>Last question for you. What's are some of the things that are next on the plate for Accenture and Palo Networks? What's next up? >>I think, you know, we're very focused on, on Sassy right now in, in the market. And I think we think that is, you know, I think both of us think that's the next big wave, right? Because I think what we learned out of, you know, these last two and a half, three years is that these concepts work, but they can actually scale out to drive significant cost savings. I mean, if you look at Accenture, you know, we don't have a a network backbone anymore. We're pure cloud wan, right? We're leveraging the internet for that. And I think that and what we're trying to do with Palo Alto and driving, you know, cloud WAN and Sassy as a service, I think will be super, super meaningful. And, and, and, and >>Well that's interesting. That has implications for a number of companies out >>There. Yeah. Well I think, you know, it's obviously the, you know, it, it's a, it is a big implication for a lot of, a lot of, you know, our customers even, right? Yeah. And so we have to be very careful and thoughtful about how we work to make that happen over time. >>Right. A lot of opportunity. Rex, thank you so much for joining us on the program and really dissecting what Accenture and Palo Alto are doing, all the value in it for organizations across industries. We appreciate your insights. Yep. >>Thank you >>For Rex Dexon and Dave Valante. I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching the Cubes stick around. Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. This is the Cube, the leader in live, emerging and enterprise tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents Ignite '22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day one of the cube's two day coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite at the MGM Grand. Dave, we've been having some great conversations today, we have a great two day lineup execs from Palo Alto, it's partner network, customers, et cetera. Going to be talking about infrastructure as code. We talk about that a lot, how Palo is partnering with its partner ecosystem to really help customers deliver security across the organization. >> We do a predictions post every year. Hopefully you can hear me. So we do this predictions post every year. I've done it for a number of years, and I want to say it was either 2018 or 2019, we predicted that HashiCorp was one of these companies to watch. And then last August, on August 9th, we had supercloud event in Palo Alto. We had David McJannet in, who is the CEO of HashiCorp. And we really see Hashi as a key player in terms of affecting multicloud consistency. Sometimes we call it supercloud, you building on top of the hyperscale cloud. So super excited to have HashiCorp on. >> Really an important conversation. We've got an alumni back with us. Asvin Ramesh is here the senior director of Alliances at HashiCorp. Welcome back. >> Yeah, thank you. Good to be back. >> Great to have you. Talk to us a little bit about what's going on at HashiCorp, your relationship with Palo Alto Networks, and what's in it for customers. >> Yeah, no, no, great question. So, Palo Alto has been a fantastic partner of ours for many years now. We started way back in 2018, 2019 focusing on the basics, putting integrations in place that customers can be using together. And so it's been a great journey. Both are very synergistic. Palo Alto is focused on multicloud, so are we, we focus on cloud infrastructure automation, and ensuring that customers are able to bring in agility, reliability, security, and be able to deliver to their business. And then Palo Alto brings in great security components to that multicloud story. So it's a great story altogether. >> Some of the challenges that organizations have been facing. Palo Alto just released a survey, I think this morning if I can find it here what's next in cyber organizations facing massive headwinds ransomware becoming a household word, business email compromise being a challenge. But also in the last couple of years the massive shift to multi-club or organizations are living an operating need to do so securely. It's no longer nice to have anymore. It's absolutely table stakes for survival, and being able to thrive and grow for any business. >> Yeah, no, I think it's almost a sort of rethinking of how you would build your infrastructure up. So the more times you do it right the better you are built to scale. That's been one of the bedrocks of how we've been working with Palo Alto, which is rethinking how should IT be building their infrastructure in a multicloud world. And I think the market timing is right for both of us in terms of the progress that we've been able to make. >> So, I mean Terraform has really become sort of a key ingredient to the cloud operating model, especially across clouds. Kind of describe how partners, and customers are are implementing that cross-cloud capability. What's that journey look like? What's the level of maturity today? >> Yeah, great question, Dave. So we sort of see customers in three buckets. The first bucket is when customers are in the initial phases of their cloud journey. So they have disparate teams in their business units try out clouds themselves. Typically there is some event that occurs either some sort of a security scare or a a cloud cost event that triggers a rethinking of how they should be thinking about this in a scalable way. So that leads to where the cloud operating model which is a framework that HashiCorp has. And we use that successfully with customers to talk them through how they should be thinking about their process, about how they should be standardizing how people operate, and then the products they should be including, but then you come to that stage, and you start to think about a centralized platform team that is putting in golden workflows, that is putting in as a service mindset for their business units thinking through policies at a corporate level. And then that is a second stage. And then, but this is also in some customers more around public clouds. But then the third stage that we see is when they start embracing their private cloud or the on-prem data center, and have the same principles address across both public clouds, and the on-prem data center, and then Terraform scale for any infrastructure. So, once you start to put these practices in place not just from a technology standpoint, but from a process, and product standpoint, you're easily able to scale with that central platform organization. >> So, it's all about that consistency across your estate irrespective of whether it's on-prem in AWS, Azure, Google, the Edge, maybe. I mean, that's starting, right? >> Asvin: Yes. >> And so when you talk about the... Break it down a little bit process and product, where do you and Palo Alto sort of partner and add value? What's that experience like? >> Yeah, so, I think as I mentioned earlier the bedrock is having ways in which customers are able to use our products together, right? And then being able to evangelize the usage of that product. So one example I'll give you is with Prisma Cloud, and Terraform Cloud to your point about Terraform earlier. So customers can be using Prisma Cloud with Terraform Cloud in a way that you can get security context telemetry during an infrastructure run, and then use policies that you have in Prisma Cloud to be able to get or run or to implement or run or make sure essentially it is adhering to your security policy or any other audits that you want to create or any other cost that you want to be able to control. >> Where are your customer conversations these days? We know that security is a board level conversation. Interestingly, in that same survey that Palo Alto released this morning that I mentioned they found that there's a big lack of alignment between the board and the C-suite staff, the executive suite in terms of security. Where are your conversations, and how are you maybe facilitating that alignment that needs to be there? Because security it's not a nice to have. >> Yeah, I think in our experience, the alignment is there. I think especially with the macro environment it's more about where where do you allocate those resources. I think those are conversations that we're just starting to see happen, but I think it's the natural progression of how the environment is moving, and maybe another quarter or two, I think we'll see greater alignment there. >> So, and I saw some data that said I guess it was a study you guys did 90% of customer say multicloud is working for them. That surprised me 'cause you hear all this negativity around multicloud, I've been kind of negative about multicloud to be honest. Like that's a symptom of MNA, and a or multi-vendor. But how do you interpret that? When they say multicloud is working? How so? >> Yeah, I think the maturity of customers are varied as I mentioned through the stages, right? So, there are customers who even in the initial phases of their journey where they have different business units using different clouds, and from a C standpoint that might still look like multicloud, right? Though the way we think about it is you should be really in stage two, and stage three to real leverage the real power of multicloud. But I think it's that initial hump that you need to go through, and being able to get oriented towards it, have the right set of skillsets, the thought process, the product, the process in place. And once you have that then you'll start reaping the benefits over a period of time, especially when some other environments events happen, and you're able to easily adjust to that because you're leveraging this multicloud environment, and you have a clear policy of where you'll use which cloud. >> So I interpreted that data as, okay, multicloud is working from the standpoint of we are multicloud, okay? So, and our business is working, but when I talk to customers, they want more to your point, they want that consistent experience. And so it's been by, to use somebody else's term, by default. Chuck Whitten I think came up with that term versus by design. And now I think they have an objective of, okay, let's make multicloud work even better. Maybe I can say that. And so what does that experience look like? That means a common experience all the way through my stack, my infrastructure stack, which is that's going to be interesting to see how that goes down 'cause you got three separate clouds, and are doing their own APIs. But certainly from a security standpoint, the PaaS layer, even as I go up the stack, how do you see that outcome, and say the next two to five years? >> Yeah, so, we go back to our customers, and they're very successful ones who've used the cloud operating model. And for us the cloud operating model for us includes four layers. So on the infrastructure layer, we have Terraform and Packer, on the security layer we have Vault and Boundary, on the networking layer we have Consul, and then on applications we have Nomad and Waypoint. But then you really look at, from a people process, and product standpoint, for people it's how do you standardize the workflows that they're able to use, right? So if you have a central platform team in place that is looking at common use cases that multiple business units are using. and then creates a golden workflow, for example, right? For these various business units to be able to use or creates what we call a system of record for cloud adoption it helps multiple business units then latch onto this work that this central platform team is doing. And they need to have a product mindset, right? So not like a project that you just start and end with. You have this continuous improvement mindset within that platform team. And they build these processes, they build these golden workflows, they build these policies in place, and then they offer that as a service to the business units to be able to use. So that increases the adoption of multicloud. And also more importantly, you can then allow that multicloud usage to be governed in the way that aligns with your overall corporate objectives. And obviously in self-interest, you'd use Terraform or Vault because you can then use it across multiple clouds. >> Well, let's say I buy into that. Okay, great. So I want that common experience 'cause so when you talk about infrastructure, take us through an example. So when I hear infrastructure, I say, okay if I'm using an S3 bucket over here an Azure blob over there, they got different APIs, they got different primitives. I want you to abstract that away. Is that what you do? >> Yeah, so I think we've seen different use cases being used across different clouds too. So I don't think it's sort of as simple as, hey, should I use this or that? It is ensuring that the common tool that you use to be able to leverage safer provisioning, right? Is Terraform. So the central team is then trained in not only just usage of Terraform open source, but their Terraform cloud, which is our managed service, and Terraform enterprise which is the self-managed, but on-prem product, it's them being qualified to be able to build these consistent workflows using whatever tool that they have or whatever skew that they have from Terraform. And then applying business logic on top of that to your point about, hey, we'd like to use AWS for these kind of workloads. We'd like to use GCP, for example, on data or use Microsoft Azure for some other type of- >> Collaboration >> Right? But the common tooling, right? Remains around the usage of Terraform, and they've trained their teams there's a standard workflow, there's standard process around it. >> Asvin, I was looking at that survey the HashiCorp state of cloud strategy survey, and it talked about skill shortages as being the number one barrier to multicloud. We talk about the cyber skills gap all the time. It's huge. It's obviously a huge issue. I saw some numbers just the other day that there's 26 million developers but there's less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. How does HashiCorp and Palo Alto Networks, how do you help customers address that skills gap so that they that they can leverage multicloud as a driver of the business? >> Yeah, another great question. So I think I'd say in two or three different ways. One is be able to provide greater documentation for our customers to be able to self use the product so that with the existing people, for example, you build out a known example, right? You're trying to achieve this goal here is how you use our products together. And so they'll be able to self-service, right? So that's one. Second is obviously both of us have great services partners, so we are always working with these services partners to get their teams trained and scaled up around these skill gaps. And I think I'd say the third which is where we see a lot of adoption is around usage of the managed services that we have. If you take Palo Alto's example in this Palo Alto will speak better to it, but they have SOC services, right? That you can consume. So, they're performing that service for you. Similarly, on our side we have a HashiCorp Cloud Platform, HCP, where you can consume Vault as a service, you can consume Consul as a service. Terraform cloud is a managed service, so you don't need as many people to be able to run that service. And we abstract all the complexity associated with that by ourselves, right? So I'd say these are the three ways that we address it. >> So Zero Trust across big buzzword. We heard this in this morning keynotes, AWS is always saying, well, we'll talk about it too, but, okay, customers are starting to talk about Zero Trust. You talk to CISOs, they're like, yes, we're adopting this mentality of unless you're trusted, we don't trust you. So, okay, cool. So you think about the cloud you've got the shared responsibility model, and then you've got the application developers are being asked to do more, secure the code. You got the CISO now has to deal with not only the shared responsibility model, but shared responsibility models across clouds, and got to bring his or her security ethos to the app dev team, and then you got to audit kind of making sure they're like the last line of defense. So my question is when you think about code security and Zero Trust in that new environment the problem with a lot of the clouds is they don't make the CISOs life any easier. So I got to believe that your objective with Palo Alto is to actually make the organization's lives easier. So, how do you deal with all that complexity in specifically in a Zero Trust multicloud environment? >> Yeah, so I'll give you a specific example. So, on code to cloud security which is one of Palo Alto's sort of key focus area is that Prisma Cloud and Terraform Cloud example that I gave, right? Where you'd be able to use what we call run tasks essentially, web hook integrations to be able to get a run or provide some telemetry back to Prisma Cloud for customers to be able to make a decision. On the Zero Trust side, we partner both on the Prisma Cloud side, and the Cortex XSOAR side around our products of Vault and and Consul. So what Vault does is it allows you to control secrets, it allows you to store secrets. So a Prisma Cloud or a Cortex customer can be using secrets from Vault familiarly for that particular transaction or workflow itself, right? Rather than, and so it's based on identity, and not on the basis of just the secret sort of lying around. Same thing with console helps you with discovery, and management of services. So, Cortex and you can automate, a lot of this work can get automated using the product that I talked about from Zero Trust. I think the key thing for Zero Trust in our view is it is a end destination, right? So it'll take certain time, depends on the enterprise, depends on where things are. It's a question of specifically focusing on value that Palo Alto and HashiCorp's products bring to solve specific use cases within that Zero Trust bucket, and solve one problem at a time rather than try to say that, hey, only Palo Alto, and only HashiCorp or whatever will solve everything in Zero Trust, right? Because that is not going to be- >> And to your point, it's never going to end, right? I mean you're talk about Cortex bringing a lot of automation. You guys bring a lot of automation now Palo Alto just bought Cider Security. Now we're getting into supply chain. I mean it going to hit it at the edge and IoT, the people don't want another IoT stove pipe. >> Lisa: No. >> Right? They want that to be part of the whole picture. So, you're never done. >> Yeah, no, but it is this continuous journey, right? And again, different companies are different parts of that journey, and then you go and rinse and repeat, you maybe acquire another company, and then they have a different maturity, so you get them on board on this. And so we see this as a multi-generational shift as Dave like to call it. And we're happy to be in the middle of it with Palo Alto Networks. >> It's definitely a multi-generational shift. Asvin, it's been great having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for giving us the update on what Hashi and Palo Alto are doing, the value in it for customers, the cloud operating model. And we should mention that HashiCorp yesterday just won a Technology Partner of the Year award. Congratulations. Yes. >> We're very, very thrilled with the recognition from Palo Alto Networks for the Technology Partner of the Year. >> Congrats. >> Thank you Keep up the great partnership. Thank you so much. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> For our guest, and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas. You watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode four of the ongoing series covering the exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about cybersecurity in this episode. I'm your host, John Furrier here we're excited to have CUBE alumni who's back Snehal Antani who's the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3.ai talking about exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities with autonomous pen testing. Snehal, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming back. >> Likewise, John. I think it's been about five years since you and I were on the stage together. And I've missed it, but I'm glad to see you again. >> Well, before we get into the showcase about your new startup, that's extremely successful, amazing margins, great product. You have a unique journey. We talked about this prior to you doing the journey, but you have a great story. You left the startup world to go into the startup, like world of self defense, public defense, NSA. What group did you go to in the public sector became a private partner. >> My background, I'm a software engineer by education and trade. I started my career at IBM. I was a CIO at GE Capital, and I think we met once when I was there and I became the CTO of Splunk. And we spent a lot of time together when I was at Splunk. And at the end of 2017, I decided to take a break from industry and really kind of solve problems that I cared deeply about and solve problems that mattered. So I left industry and joined the US Special Operations Community and spent about four years in US Special Operations, where I grew more personally and professionally than in anything I'd ever done in my career. And exited that time, met my co-founder in special ops. And then as he retired from the air force, we started Horizon3. >> So there's really, I want to bring that up one, 'cause it's fascinating that not a lot of people in Silicon Valley and tech would do that. So thanks for the service. And I know everyone who's out there in the public sector knows that this is a really important time for the tactical edge in our military, a lot of things going on around the world. So thanks for the service and a great journey. But there's a storyline with the company you're running now that you started. I know you get the jacket on there. I noticed get a little military vibe to it. Cybersecurity, I mean, every company's on their own now. They have to build their own militia. There is no government supporting companies anymore. There's no militia. No one's on the shores of our country defending the citizens and the companies, they got to offend for themselves. So every company has to have their own military. >> In many ways, you don't see anti-aircraft rocket launchers on top of the JP Morgan building in New York City because they rely on the government for air defense. But in cyber it's very different. Every company is on their own to defend for themselves. And what's interesting is this blend. If you look at the Ukraine, Russia war, as an example, a thousand companies have decided to withdraw from the Russian economy and those thousand companies we should expect to be in the ire of the Russian government and their proxies at some point. And so it's not just those companies, but their suppliers, their distributors. And it's no longer about cyber attack for extortion through ransomware, but rather cyber attack for punishment and retaliation for leaving. Those companies are on their own to defend themselves. There's no government that is dedicated to supporting them. So yeah, the reality is that cybersecurity, it's the burden of the organization. And also your attack surface has expanded to not just be your footprint, but if an adversary wants to punish you for leaving their economy, they can get, if you're in agriculture, they could disrupt your ability to farm or they could get all your fruit to spoil at the border 'cause they disrupted your distributors and so on. So I think the entire world is going to change over the next 18 to 24 months. And I think this idea of cybersecurity is going to become truly a national problem and a problem that breaks down any corporate barriers that we see in previously. >> What are some of the things that inspired you to start this company? And I loved your approach of thinking about the customer, your customer, as defending themselves in context to threats, really leaning into it, being ready and able to defend. Horizon3 has a lot of that kind of military thinking for the good of the company. What's the motivation? Why this company? Why now? What's the value proposition? >> So there's two parts to why the company and why now. The first part was what my observation, when I left industry realm or my military background is watching "Jack Ryan" and "Tropic Thunder" and I didn't come from the military world. And so when I entered the special operations community, step one was to keep my mouth shut, learn, listen, and really observe and understand what made that community so impressive. And obviously the people and it's not about them being fast runners or great shooters or awesome swimmers, but rather there are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem as a team under pressure, which is the exact culture you want to have in any startup, early stage companies are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem under pressure as a team. So I had this immediate advantage when we started Horizon3, where a third of Horizon3 employees came from that special operations community. So one is this awesome talent. But the second part that, I remember this quote from a special operations commander that said we use live rounds in training because if we used fake rounds or rubber bullets, everyone would act like metal of honor winners. And the whole idea there is you train like you fight, you build that muscle memory for crisis and response and so on upfront. So when you're in the thick of it, you already know how to react. And this aligns to a pain I had in industry. I had no idea I was secure until the bad guy showed up. I had no idea if I was fixing the right vulnerabilities, logging the right data in Splunk, or if my CrowdStrike EDR platform was configured correctly, I had to wait for the bad guys to show up. I didn't know if my people knew how to respond to an incident. So what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, proactively harden my systems. I needed to do that by continuously pen testing myself or continuously testing my security posture. And there just wasn't any way to do that where an IT admin or a network engineer could in three clicks have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. And that was really what we set out to do, not build a autonomous pen testing platform for security people, build it so that anybody can quickly test their security posture and then use the output to fix problems that truly matter. >> So the value preposition, if I get this right is, there's a lot of companies out there doing pen tests. And I know I hate pen tests. They're like, cause you do DevOps, it changes you got to do another pen test. So it makes sense to do autonomous pen testing. So congratulations on seeing that that's obvious to that, but a lot of other have consulting tied to it. Which seems like you need to train someone and you guys taking a different approach. >> Yeah, we actually, as a company have zero consulting, zero professional services. And the whole idea is that build a true software as a service offering where an intern, in fact, we've got a video of a nine year old that in three clicks can run pen tests against themselves. And because of that, you can wire pen tests into your DevOps tool chain. You can run multiple pen tests today. In fact, I've got customers running 40, 50 pen tests a month against their organization. And that what that does is completely lowers the barrier of entry for being able to verify your posture. If you have consulting on average, when I was a CIO, it was at least a three month lead time to schedule consultants to show up and then they'd show up, they'd embarrass the security team, they'd make everyone look bad, 'cause they're going to get in, leave behind a report. And that report was almost identical to what they found last year because the older that report, the one the date itself gets stale, the context changes and so on. And then eventually you just don't even bother fixing it. Or if you fix a problem, you don't have the skills to verify that has been fixed. So I think that consulting led model was acceptable when you viewed security as a compliance checkbox, where once a year was sufficient to meet your like PCI requirements. But if you're really operating with a wartime mindset and you actually need to harden and secure your environment, you've got to be running pen test regularly against your organization from different perspectives, inside, outside, from the cloud, from work, from home environments and everything in between. >> So for the CISOs out there, for the CSOs and the CXOs, what's the pitch to them because I see your jacket that says Horizon3 AI, trust but verify. But this trust is, but is canceled out, just as verify. What's the product that you guys are offering the service. Describe what it is and why they should look at it. >> Yeah, sure. So one, when I back when I was the CIO, don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure right now. Show me we're secure again tomorrow. And then show me we're secure again next week because my environment is constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote and they're always evolving. And this whole idea of show me we're secure. Don't trust that your security tools are working, verify that they can detect and respond and stifle an attack and then verify tomorrow, verify next week. That's the big mind shift. Now what we do is-- >> John: How do they respond to that by the way? Like they don't believe you at first or what's the story. >> I think, there's actually a very bifurcated response. There are still a decent chunk of CIOs and CSOs that have a security is a compliance checkbox mindset. So my attitude with them is I'm not going to convince you. You believe it's a checkbox. I'll just wait for you to get breached and sell to your replacement, 'cause you'll get fired. And in the meantime, I spend all my energy with those that actually care about proactively securing and hardening their environments. >> That's true. People do get fired. Can you give an example of what you're saying about this environment being ready, proving that you're secure today, tomorrow and a few weeks out. Give me an example. >> Of, yeah, I'll give you actually a customer example. There was a healthcare organization and they had about 5,000 hosts in their environment and they did everything right. They had Fortinet as their EDR platform. They had user behavior analytics in place that they had purchased and tuned. And when they ran a pen test self-service, our product node zero immediately started to discover every host on the network. It then fingerprinted all those hosts and found it was able to get code execution on three machines. So it got code execution, dumped credentials, laterally maneuvered, and became a domain administrator, which in IT, if an attacker becomes a domain admin, they've got keys to the kingdom. So at first the question was, how did the node zero pen test become domain admin? How'd they get code execution, Fortinet should have detected and stopped it. Well, it turned out Fortinet was misconfigured on three boxes out of 5,000. And these guys had no idea and it's just automation that went wrong and so on. And now they would've only known they had misconfigured their EDR platform on three hosts if the attacker had showed up. The second question though was, why didn't they catch the lateral movement? Which all their marketing brochures say they're supposed to catch. And it turned out that that customer purchased the wrong Fortinet modules. One again, they had no idea. They thought they were doing the right thing. So don't trust just installing your tools is good enough. You've got to exercise and verify them. We've got tons of stories from patches that didn't actually apply to being able to find the AWS admin credentials on a local file system. And then using that to log in and take over the cloud. In fact, I gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And that's just the reality is, you don't know that these tools and processes are working for you until the bad guys have shown. >> The velocities there. You can accelerate through logs, you know from the days you've been there. This is now the threat. Being, I won't say lazy, but just not careful or just not thinking. >> Well, I'll do an example. We have a lot of customers that are Horizon3 customers and Splunk customers. And what you'll see their behavior is, is they'll have Horizon3 up on one screen. And every single attacker command executed with its timestamp is up on that screen. And then look at Splunk and say, hey, we were able to dump vCenter credentials from VMware products at this time on this host, what did Splunk see or what didn't they see? Why were no logs generated? And it turns out that they had some logging blind spots. So what they'll actually do is run us to almost like stimulate the defensive tools and then see what did the tools catch? What did they miss? What are those blind spots and how do they fix it. >> So your price called node zero. You mentioned that. Is that specifically a suite, a tool, a platform. How do people consume and engage with you guys? >> So the way that we work, the whole product is designed to be self-service. So once again, while we have a sales team, the whole intent is you don't need to have to talk to a sales rep to start using the product, you can log in right now, go to Horizon3.ai, you can run a trial log in with your Google ID, your LinkedIn ID, start running pen test against your home or against your network against this organization right now, without talking to anybody. The whole idea is self-service, run a pen test in three clicks and give you the power of that 20 year pen testing expert. And then what'll happen is node zero will execute and then it'll provide to you a full report of here are all of the different paths or attack paths or sequences where we are able to become an admin in your environment. And then for every attack path, here is the path or the kill chain, the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. Here's exactly what you've got to do to fix it. And then once you've fixed it, here's how you verify that you've truly fixed the problem. And this whole aha moment is run us to find problems. You fix them, rerun us to verify that the problem has been fixed. >> Talk about the company, how many people do you have and get some stats? >> Yeah, so we started writing code in January of 2020, right before the pandemic hit. And then about 10 months later at the end of 2020, we launched the first version of the product. We've been in the market for now about two and a half years total from start of the company till present. We've got 130 employees. We've got more customers than we do employees, which is really cool. And instead our customers shift from running one pen test a year to 40, 50 pen test. >> John: And it's full SaaS. >> The whole product is full SaaS. So no consulting, no pro serve. You run as often as you-- >> Who's downloading, who's buying the product. >> What's amazing is, we have customers in almost every section or sector now. So we're not overly rotated towards like healthcare or financial services. We've got state and local education or K through 12 education, state and local government, a number of healthcare companies, financial services, manufacturing. We've got organizations that large enterprises. >> John: Security's diverse. >> It's very diverse. >> I mean, ransomware must be a big driver. I mean, is that something that you're seeing a lot. >> It is. And the thing about ransomware is, if you peel back the outcome of ransomware, which is extortion, at the end of the day, what ransomware organizations or criminals or APTs will do is they'll find out who all your employees are online. They will then figure out if you've got 7,000 employees, all it takes is one of them to have a bad password. And then attackers are going to credential spray to find that one person with a bad password or whose Netflix password that's on the dark web is also their same password to log in here, 'cause most people reuse. And then from there they're going to most likely in your organization, the domain user, when you log in, like you probably have local admin on your laptop. If you're a windows machine and I've got local admin on your laptop, I'm going to be able to dump credentials, get the admin credentials and then start to laterally maneuver. Attackers don't have to hack in using zero days like you see in the movies, often they're logging in with valid user IDs and passwords that they've found and collected from somewhere else. And then they make that, they maneuver by making a low plus a low equal a high. And the other thing in financial services, we spend all of our time fixing critical vulnerabilities, attackers know that. So they've adapted to finding ways to chain together, low priority vulnerabilities and misconfigurations and dangerous defaults to become admin. So while we've over rotated towards just fixing the highs and the criticals attackers have adapted. And once again they have a vote, they're always evolving their tactics. >> And how do you prevent that from happening? >> So we actually apply those same tactics. Rarely do we actually need a CVE to compromise your environment. We will harvest credentials, just like an attacker. We will find misconfigurations and dangerous defaults, just like an attacker. We will combine those together. We'll make use of exploitable vulnerabilities as appropriate and use that to compromise your environment. So the tactics that, in many ways we've built a digital weapon and the tactics we apply are the exact same tactics that are applied by the adversary. >> So you guys basically simulate hacking. >> We actually do the hacking. Simulate means there's a fakeness to it. >> So you guys do hack. >> We actually compromise. >> Like sneakers the movie, those sneakers movie for the old folks like me. >> And in fact that was my inspiration. I've had this idea for over a decade now, which is I want to be able to look at anything that laptop, this Wi-Fi network, gear in hospital or a truck driving by and know, I can figure out how to gain initial access, rip that environment apart and be able to opponent. >> Okay, Chuck, he's not allowed in the studio anymore. (laughs) No, seriously. Some people are exposed. I mean, some companies don't have anything. But there's always passwords or so most people have that argument. Well, there's nothing to protect here. Not a lot of sensitive data. How do you respond to that? Do you see that being kind of putting the head in the sand or? >> Yeah, it's actually, it's less, there's not sensitive data, but more we've installed or applied multifactor authentication, attackers can't get in now. Well MFA only applies or does not apply to lower level protocols. So I can find a user ID password, log in through SMB, which isn't protected by multifactor authentication and still upon your environment. So unfortunately I think as a security industry, we've become very good at giving a false sense of security to organizations. >> John: Compliance drives that behavior. >> Compliance drives that. And what we need. Back to don't tell me we're secure, show me, we've got to, I think, change that to a trust but verify, but get rid of the trust piece of it, just to verify. >> Okay, we got a lot of CISOs and CSOs watching this showcase, looking at the hot startups, what's the message to the executives there. Do they want to become more leaning in more hawkish if you will, to use the military term on security? I mean, I heard one CISO say, security first then compliance 'cause compliance can make you complacent and then you're unsecure at that point. >> I actually say that. I agree. One definitely security is different and more important than being compliant. I think there's another emerging concept, which is I'd rather be defensible than secure. What I mean by that is security is a point in time state. I am secure right now. I may not be secure tomorrow 'cause something's changed. But if I'm defensible, then what I have is that muscle memory to detect, respondent and stifle an attack. And that's what's more important. Can I detect you? How long did it take me to detect you? Can I stifle you from achieving your objective? How long did it take me to stifle you? What did you use to get in to gain access? How long did that sit in my environment? How long did it take me to fix it? So on and so forth. But I think it's being defensible and being able to rapidly adapt to changing tactics by the adversary is more important. >> This is the evolution of how the red line never moved. You got the adversaries in our networks and our banks. Now they hang out and they wait. So everyone thinks they're secure. But when they start getting hacked, they're not really in a position to defend, the alarms go off. Where's the playbook. Team springs into action. I mean, you kind of get the visual there, but this is really the issue being defensible means having your own essentially military for your company. >> Being defensible, I think has two pieces. One is you've got to have this culture and process in place of training like you fight because you want to build that incident response muscle memory ahead of time. You don't want to have to learn how to respond to an incident in the middle of the incident. So that is that proactively verifying your posture and continuous pen testing is critical there. The second part is the actual fundamentals in place so you can detect and stifle as appropriate. And also being able to do that. When you are continuously verifying your posture, you need to verify your entire posture, not just your test systems, which is what most people do. But you have to be able to safely pen test your production systems, your cloud environments, your perimeter. You've got to assume that the bad guys are going to get in, once they're in, what can they do? So don't just say that my perimeter's secure and I'm good to go. It's the soft squishy center that attackers are going to get into. And from there, can you detect them and can you stop them? >> Snehal, take me through the use. You got to be sold on this, I love this topic. Alright, pen test. Is it, what am I buying? Just pen test as a service. You mentioned dark web. Are you actually buying credentials online on behalf of the customer? What is the product? What am I buying if I'm the CISO from Horizon3? What's the service? What's the product, be specific. >> So very specifically and one just principles. The first principle is when I was a buyer, I hated being nickled and dimed buyer vendors, which was, I had to buy 15 different modules in order to achieve an objective. Just give me one line item, make it super easy to buy and don't nickel and dime me. Because I've spent time as a buyer that very much has permeated throughout the company. So there is a single skew from Horizon3. It is an annual subscription based on how big your environment is. And it is inclusive of on-prem internal pen tests, external pen tests, cloud attacks, work from home attacks, our ability to harvest credentials from the dark web and from open source sources. Being able to crack those credentials, compromise. All of that is included as a singles skew. All you get as a CISO is a singles skew, annual subscription, and you can run as many pen tests as you want. Some customers still stick to, maybe one pen test a quarter, but most customers shift when they realize there's no limit, we don't nickel and dime. They can run 10, 20, 30, 40 a month. >> Well, it's not nickel and dime in the sense that, it's more like dollars and hundreds because they know what to expect if it's classic cloud consumption. They kind of know what their environment, can people try it. Let's just say I have a huge environment, I have a cloud, I have an on-premise private cloud. Can I dabble and set parameters around pricing? >> Yes you can. So one is you can dabble and set perimeter around scope, which is like manufacturing does this, do not touch the production line that's on at the moment. We've got a hospital that says every time they run a pen test, any machine that's actually connected to a patient must be excluded. So you can actually set the parameters for what's in scope and what's out of scope up front, most again we're designed to be safe to run against production so you can set the parameters for scope. You can set the parameters for cost if you want. But our recommendation is I'd rather figure out what you can afford and let you test everything in your environment than try to squeeze every penny from you by only making you buy what can afford as a smaller-- >> So the variable ratio, if you will is, how much they spend is the size of their environment and usage. >> Just size of the environment. >> So it could be a big ticket item for a CISO then. >> It could, if you're really large, but for the most part-- >> What's large? >> I mean, if you were Walmart, well, let me back up. What I heard is global 10 companies spend anywhere from 50 to a hundred million dollars a year on security testing. So they're already spending a ton of money, but they're spending it on consultants that show up maybe a couple of times a year. They don't have, humans can't scale to test a million hosts in your environment. And so you're already spending that money, spend a fraction of that and use us and run as much as you want. And that's really what it comes down to. >> John: All right. So what's the response from customers? >> What's really interesting is there are three use cases. The first is that SOC manager that is using us to verify that their security tools are actually working. So their Splunk environment is logging the right data. It's integrating properly with CrowdStrike, it's integrating properly with their active directory services and their password policies. So the SOC manager is using us to verify the effectiveness of their security controls. The second use case is the IT director that is using us to proactively harden their systems. Did they install VMware correctly? Did they install their Cisco gear correctly? Are they patching right? And then the third are for the companies that are lucky to have their own internal pen test and red teams where they use us like a force multiplier. So if you've got 10 people on your red team and you still have a million IPs or hosts in your environment, you still don't have enough people for that coverage. So they'll use us to do recon at scale and attack at scale and let the humans focus on the really juicy hard stuff that humans are successful at. >> Love the product. Again, I'm trying to think about how I engage on the test. Is there pilots? Is there a demo version? >> There's a free trials. So we do 30 day free trials. The output can actually be used to meet your SOC 2 requirements. So in many ways you can just use us to get a free SOC 2 pen test report right now, if you want. Go to the website, log in for a free trial, you can log into your Google ID or your LinkedIn ID, run a pen test against your organization and use that to answer your PCI segmentation test requirements, your SOC 2 requirements, but you will be hooked. You will want to run us more often. And you'll get a Horizon3 tattoo. >> The first hits free as they say in the drug business. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so you're seeing that kind of response then, trial converts. >> It's exactly. In fact, we have a very well defined aha moment, which is you run us to find, you fix, you run us to verify, we have 100% technical win rate when our customers hit a find, fix, verify cycle, then it's about budget and urgency. But 100% technical win rate because of that aha moment, 'cause people realize, holy crap, I don't have to wait six months to verify that my problems have actually been fixed. I can just come in, click, verify, rerun the entire pen test or rerun a very specific part of it on what I just patched my environment. >> Congratulations, great stuff. You're here part of the AWS Startup Showcase. So I have to ask, what's the relationship with AWS, you're on their cloud. What kind of actions going on there? Is there secret sauce on there? What's going on? >> So one is we are AWS customers ourselves, our brains command and control infrastructure. All of our analytics are all running on AWS. It's amazing, when we run a pen test, we are able to use AWS and we'll spin up a virtual private cloud just for that pen test. It's completely ephemeral, it's all Lambda functions and graph analytics and other techniques. When the pen test ends, you can delete, there's a single use Docker container that gets deleted from your environment so you have nothing on-prem to deal with and the entire virtual private cloud tears itself down. So at any given moment, if we're running 50 pen tests or a hundred pen tests, self-service, there's a hundred virtual private clouds being managed in AWS that are spinning up, running and tearing down. It's an absolutely amazing underlying platform for us to make use of. Two is that many customers that have hybrid environments. So they've got a cloud infrastructure, an Office 365 infrastructure and an on-prem infrastructure. We are a single attack platform that can test all of that together. No one else can do it. And so the AWS customers that are especially AWS hybrid customers are the ones that we do really well targeting. >> Got it. And that's awesome. And that's the benefit of cloud? >> Absolutely. And the AWS marketplace. What's absolutely amazing is the competitive advantage being part of the marketplace has for us, because the simple thing is my customers, if they already have dedicated cloud spend, they can use their approved cloud spend to pay for Horizon3 through the marketplace. So you don't have to, if you already have that budget dedicated, you can use that through the marketplace. The other is you've already got the vendor processes in place, you can purchase through your existing AWS account. So what I love about the AWS company is one, the infrastructure we use for our own pen test, two, the marketplace, and then three, the customers that span that hybrid cloud environment. That's right in our strike zone. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thanks for being part of the showcase and I'm sure your product is going to do very, very well. It's very built for what people want. Self-service get in, get the value quickly. >> No agents to install, no consultants to hire. safe to run against production. It's what I wanted. >> Great to see you and congratulations and what a great story. And we're going to keep following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Snehal: Phenomenal. Thank you, John. >> This is the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John John Furrier, your host. This is season two, episode four on cybersecurity. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the VMware Explorer. 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah. Yeah. The big set >>And we're very excited to be welcoming buck. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but first >>Time, first time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west, >>I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or hiatus. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives was on my board. Bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago and now Ko. So that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors. Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah, I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassey at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian, IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NSX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and vs a and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could end VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player. It's gonna be hard. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multi-cloud. So I can go to an, a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna believe the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multicloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to him, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform. >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 29 >>Quite a bit in that session, he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be. So I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep. And I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right for disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimball and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right on snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank SL doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational CEO, no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I see you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do you, as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X by cheaper, faster with the Webscale glass offer the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just backup recovery. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes getting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no later than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys at penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar are going up. Yep. >>And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's not. >>And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not voted on. Okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, this >>Security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things that we've talking about Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shucks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, if the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed and, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You've seen where I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to where this, I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank Salman. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo D and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows moat very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the Snowflake's had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB, open source, two data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most ask? What are you most anxious about and what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come Tom world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies I've worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but there are are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of them. And it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's Steph Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me. It's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought up the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda Naor. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels of going right. That sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a midsize company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you. Best of luck. Congratulations. On the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanjay. We always appreciate having you. Thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanja poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.