(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents Ignite '22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day one of the cube's two day coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite at the MGM Grand. Dave, we've been having some great conversations today, we have a great two day lineup execs from Palo Alto, it's partner network, customers, et cetera. Going to be talking about infrastructure as code. We talk about that a lot, how Palo is partnering with its partner ecosystem to really help customers deliver security across the organization. >> We do a predictions post every year. Hopefully you can hear me. So we do this predictions post every year. I've done it for a number of years, and I want to say it was either 2018 or 2019, we predicted that HashiCorp was one of these companies to watch. And then last August, on August 9th, we had supercloud event in Palo Alto. We had David McJannet in, who is the CEO of HashiCorp. And we really see Hashi as a key player in terms of affecting multicloud consistency. Sometimes we call it supercloud, you building on top of the hyperscale cloud. So super excited to have HashiCorp on. >> Really an important conversation. We've got an alumni back with us. Asvin Ramesh is here the senior director of Alliances at HashiCorp. Welcome back. >> Yeah, thank you. Good to be back. >> Great to have you. Talk to us a little bit about what's going on at HashiCorp, your relationship with Palo Alto Networks, and what's in it for customers. >> Yeah, no, no, great question. So, Palo Alto has been a fantastic partner of ours for many years now. We started way back in 2018, 2019 focusing on the basics, putting integrations in place that customers can be using together. And so it's been a great journey. Both are very synergistic. Palo Alto is focused on multicloud, so are we, we focus on cloud infrastructure automation, and ensuring that customers are able to bring in agility, reliability, security, and be able to deliver to their business. And then Palo Alto brings in great security components to that multicloud story. So it's a great story altogether. >> Some of the challenges that organizations have been facing. Palo Alto just released a survey, I think this morning if I can find it here what's next in cyber organizations facing massive headwinds ransomware becoming a household word, business email compromise being a challenge. But also in the last couple of years the massive shift to multi-club or organizations are living an operating need to do so securely. It's no longer nice to have anymore. It's absolutely table stakes for survival, and being able to thrive and grow for any business. >> Yeah, no, I think it's almost a sort of rethinking of how you would build your infrastructure up. So the more times you do it right the better you are built to scale. That's been one of the bedrocks of how we've been working with Palo Alto, which is rethinking how should IT be building their infrastructure in a multicloud world. And I think the market timing is right for both of us in terms of the progress that we've been able to make. >> So, I mean Terraform has really become sort of a key ingredient to the cloud operating model, especially across clouds. Kind of describe how partners, and customers are are implementing that cross-cloud capability. What's that journey look like? What's the level of maturity today? >> Yeah, great question, Dave. So we sort of see customers in three buckets. The first bucket is when customers are in the initial phases of their cloud journey. So they have disparate teams in their business units try out clouds themselves. Typically there is some event that occurs either some sort of a security scare or a a cloud cost event that triggers a rethinking of how they should be thinking about this in a scalable way. So that leads to where the cloud operating model which is a framework that HashiCorp has. And we use that successfully with customers to talk them through how they should be thinking about their process, about how they should be standardizing how people operate, and then the products they should be including, but then you come to that stage, and you start to think about a centralized platform team that is putting in golden workflows, that is putting in as a service mindset for their business units thinking through policies at a corporate level. And then that is a second stage. And then, but this is also in some customers more around public clouds. But then the third stage that we see is when they start embracing their private cloud or the on-prem data center, and have the same principles address across both public clouds, and the on-prem data center, and then Terraform scale for any infrastructure. So, once you start to put these practices in place not just from a technology standpoint, but from a process, and product standpoint, you're easily able to scale with that central platform organization. >> So, it's all about that consistency across your estate irrespective of whether it's on-prem in AWS, Azure, Google, the Edge, maybe. I mean, that's starting, right? >> Asvin: Yes. >> And so when you talk about the... Break it down a little bit process and product, where do you and Palo Alto sort of partner and add value? What's that experience like? >> Yeah, so, I think as I mentioned earlier the bedrock is having ways in which customers are able to use our products together, right? And then being able to evangelize the usage of that product. So one example I'll give you is with Prisma Cloud, and Terraform Cloud to your point about Terraform earlier. So customers can be using Prisma Cloud with Terraform Cloud in a way that you can get security context telemetry during an infrastructure run, and then use policies that you have in Prisma Cloud to be able to get or run or to implement or run or make sure essentially it is adhering to your security policy or any other audits that you want to create or any other cost that you want to be able to control. >> Where are your customer conversations these days? We know that security is a board level conversation. Interestingly, in that same survey that Palo Alto released this morning that I mentioned they found that there's a big lack of alignment between the board and the C-suite staff, the executive suite in terms of security. Where are your conversations, and how are you maybe facilitating that alignment that needs to be there? Because security it's not a nice to have. >> Yeah, I think in our experience, the alignment is there. I think especially with the macro environment it's more about where where do you allocate those resources. I think those are conversations that we're just starting to see happen, but I think it's the natural progression of how the environment is moving, and maybe another quarter or two, I think we'll see greater alignment there. >> So, and I saw some data that said I guess it was a study you guys did 90% of customer say multicloud is working for them. That surprised me 'cause you hear all this negativity around multicloud, I've been kind of negative about multicloud to be honest. Like that's a symptom of MNA, and a or multi-vendor. But how do you interpret that? When they say multicloud is working? How so? >> Yeah, I think the maturity of customers are varied as I mentioned through the stages, right? So, there are customers who even in the initial phases of their journey where they have different business units using different clouds, and from a C standpoint that might still look like multicloud, right? Though the way we think about it is you should be really in stage two, and stage three to real leverage the real power of multicloud. But I think it's that initial hump that you need to go through, and being able to get oriented towards it, have the right set of skillsets, the thought process, the product, the process in place. And once you have that then you'll start reaping the benefits over a period of time, especially when some other environments events happen, and you're able to easily adjust to that because you're leveraging this multicloud environment, and you have a clear policy of where you'll use which cloud. >> So I interpreted that data as, okay, multicloud is working from the standpoint of we are multicloud, okay? So, and our business is working, but when I talk to customers, they want more to your point, they want that consistent experience. And so it's been by, to use somebody else's term, by default. Chuck Whitten I think came up with that term versus by design. And now I think they have an objective of, okay, let's make multicloud work even better. Maybe I can say that. And so what does that experience look like? That means a common experience all the way through my stack, my infrastructure stack, which is that's going to be interesting to see how that goes down 'cause you got three separate clouds, and are doing their own APIs. But certainly from a security standpoint, the PaaS layer, even as I go up the stack, how do you see that outcome, and say the next two to five years? >> Yeah, so, we go back to our customers, and they're very successful ones who've used the cloud operating model. And for us the cloud operating model for us includes four layers. So on the infrastructure layer, we have Terraform and Packer, on the security layer we have Vault and Boundary, on the networking layer we have Consul, and then on applications we have Nomad and Waypoint. But then you really look at, from a people process, and product standpoint, for people it's how do you standardize the workflows that they're able to use, right? So if you have a central platform team in place that is looking at common use cases that multiple business units are using. and then creates a golden workflow, for example, right? For these various business units to be able to use or creates what we call a system of record for cloud adoption it helps multiple business units then latch onto this work that this central platform team is doing. And they need to have a product mindset, right? So not like a project that you just start and end with. You have this continuous improvement mindset within that platform team. And they build these processes, they build these golden workflows, they build these policies in place, and then they offer that as a service to the business units to be able to use. So that increases the adoption of multicloud. And also more importantly, you can then allow that multicloud usage to be governed in the way that aligns with your overall corporate objectives. And obviously in self-interest, you'd use Terraform or Vault because you can then use it across multiple clouds. >> Well, let's say I buy into that. Okay, great. So I want that common experience 'cause so when you talk about infrastructure, take us through an example. So when I hear infrastructure, I say, okay if I'm using an S3 bucket over here an Azure blob over there, they got different APIs, they got different primitives. I want you to abstract that away. Is that what you do? >> Yeah, so I think we've seen different use cases being used across different clouds too. So I don't think it's sort of as simple as, hey, should I use this or that? It is ensuring that the common tool that you use to be able to leverage safer provisioning, right? Is Terraform. So the central team is then trained in not only just usage of Terraform open source, but their Terraform cloud, which is our managed service, and Terraform enterprise which is the self-managed, but on-prem product, it's them being qualified to be able to build these consistent workflows using whatever tool that they have or whatever skew that they have from Terraform. And then applying business logic on top of that to your point about, hey, we'd like to use AWS for these kind of workloads. We'd like to use GCP, for example, on data or use Microsoft Azure for some other type of- >> Collaboration >> Right? But the common tooling, right? Remains around the usage of Terraform, and they've trained their teams there's a standard workflow, there's standard process around it. >> Asvin, I was looking at that survey the HashiCorp state of cloud strategy survey, and it talked about skill shortages as being the number one barrier to multicloud. We talk about the cyber skills gap all the time. It's huge. It's obviously a huge issue. I saw some numbers just the other day that there's 26 million developers but there's less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. How does HashiCorp and Palo Alto Networks, how do you help customers address that skills gap so that they that they can leverage multicloud as a driver of the business? >> Yeah, another great question. So I think I'd say in two or three different ways. One is be able to provide greater documentation for our customers to be able to self use the product so that with the existing people, for example, you build out a known example, right? You're trying to achieve this goal here is how you use our products together. And so they'll be able to self-service, right? So that's one. Second is obviously both of us have great services partners, so we are always working with these services partners to get their teams trained and scaled up around these skill gaps. And I think I'd say the third which is where we see a lot of adoption is around usage of the managed services that we have. If you take Palo Alto's example in this Palo Alto will speak better to it, but they have SOC services, right? That you can consume. So, they're performing that service for you. Similarly, on our side we have a HashiCorp Cloud Platform, HCP, where you can consume Vault as a service, you can consume Consul as a service. Terraform cloud is a managed service, so you don't need as many people to be able to run that service. And we abstract all the complexity associated with that by ourselves, right? So I'd say these are the three ways that we address it. >> So Zero Trust across big buzzword. We heard this in this morning keynotes, AWS is always saying, well, we'll talk about it too, but, okay, customers are starting to talk about Zero Trust. You talk to CISOs, they're like, yes, we're adopting this mentality of unless you're trusted, we don't trust you. So, okay, cool. So you think about the cloud you've got the shared responsibility model, and then you've got the application developers are being asked to do more, secure the code. You got the CISO now has to deal with not only the shared responsibility model, but shared responsibility models across clouds, and got to bring his or her security ethos to the app dev team, and then you got to audit kind of making sure they're like the last line of defense. So my question is when you think about code security and Zero Trust in that new environment the problem with a lot of the clouds is they don't make the CISOs life any easier. So I got to believe that your objective with Palo Alto is to actually make the organization's lives easier. So, how do you deal with all that complexity in specifically in a Zero Trust multicloud environment? >> Yeah, so I'll give you a specific example. So, on code to cloud security which is one of Palo Alto's sort of key focus area is that Prisma Cloud and Terraform Cloud example that I gave, right? Where you'd be able to use what we call run tasks essentially, web hook integrations to be able to get a run or provide some telemetry back to Prisma Cloud for customers to be able to make a decision. On the Zero Trust side, we partner both on the Prisma Cloud side, and the Cortex XSOAR side around our products of Vault and and Consul. So what Vault does is it allows you to control secrets, it allows you to store secrets. So a Prisma Cloud or a Cortex customer can be using secrets from Vault familiarly for that particular transaction or workflow itself, right? Rather than, and so it's based on identity, and not on the basis of just the secret sort of lying around. Same thing with console helps you with discovery, and management of services. So, Cortex and you can automate, a lot of this work can get automated using the product that I talked about from Zero Trust. I think the key thing for Zero Trust in our view is it is a end destination, right? So it'll take certain time, depends on the enterprise, depends on where things are. It's a question of specifically focusing on value that Palo Alto and HashiCorp's products bring to solve specific use cases within that Zero Trust bucket, and solve one problem at a time rather than try to say that, hey, only Palo Alto, and only HashiCorp or whatever will solve everything in Zero Trust, right? Because that is not going to be- >> And to your point, it's never going to end, right? I mean you're talk about Cortex bringing a lot of automation. You guys bring a lot of automation now Palo Alto just bought Cider Security. Now we're getting into supply chain. I mean it going to hit it at the edge and IoT, the people don't want another IoT stove pipe. >> Lisa: No. >> Right? They want that to be part of the whole picture. So, you're never done. >> Yeah, no, but it is this continuous journey, right? And again, different companies are different parts of that journey, and then you go and rinse and repeat, you maybe acquire another company, and then they have a different maturity, so you get them on board on this. And so we see this as a multi-generational shift as Dave like to call it. And we're happy to be in the middle of it with Palo Alto Networks. >> It's definitely a multi-generational shift. Asvin, it's been great having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for giving us the update on what Hashi and Palo Alto are doing, the value in it for customers, the cloud operating model. And we should mention that HashiCorp yesterday just won a Technology Partner of the Year award. Congratulations. Yes. >> We're very, very thrilled with the recognition from Palo Alto Networks for the Technology Partner of the Year. >> Congrats. >> Thank you Keep up the great partnership. Thank you so much. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> For our guest, and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas. You watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Anaheim, California, it's the Cube! Covering Nutanix.next 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back, everyone, to the Cube's live coverage of Nutanix.Next here in Anaheim. I'm Rebecca Knight, your host along with my cohost, John Furrier. We are the Cube. We are the ESPN of tech. We have two tech athletes on with us today. We have Asvin Ramesh, AVP marketing and alliances technology services at Cognizant. Welcome. And we have Inder Sidhu, EVP global customer success at Nutanix. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Inder. >> Thank you. >> So why don't I start with you. For viewers who are not familiar with Cognizant, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do, what you're all about. >> Sure, so Cognizant is one of the world's leading professional services companies. We focus on transforming clients' business model, operating model and technology model. Naztech listed at 16 billion revenue last year. We are a Fortune 200 company. We work with about half of the Fortune 200 companies. And companies trust us to help transform the work that they're doing. >> Those are tall orders. (laughs) So what are you hearing from customers right now? What are their biggest challenges that they're facing? >> So, I think customers are basically in two buckets, as we see it, right? We see customers who are inherently excited about the challenges that they're facing, and there are other customers who are still grappling how to figure out the onslaught that's coming at them. And if I just abstract this beyond technology into the overall spectrum of how I look at it, it really transforms to what I call, are customers set or not? And that translates to social, economic and technology. There are a lot of social changes that are happening because of all the things that are going on. How well are companies able to adapt to those social changes? Really makes a difference in their ability to engage with the consumer. There are a lot of economic changes, economic martyrs that are being brought. How well are companies being able to adapt to those economic models? And more importantly from where Nutanix and Cognizant sit, technology is playing a huge role, both on the social and the economic angle. So how do companies leverage technology to be able to drive that change? And how well you do these three things really makes a difference in customers' lives. >> Talk about the relationship with Nutanix. What's the relationship? Obviously partner, you have customers. They got the software now and hardware before, all coming together. What's the relationship how you guys work together? >> It's fantastic. We've been a partner with Nutanix for more than three years. And, I think the critical piece and foundational elements of the partnership with Nutanix, more than the products that they bring out because they're constantly innovating all the time, I think is on a bedrock of transparency, flexibility, and specificity. So there's a lot of transparency in terms of their roadmap, and we get a sense of where they're headed. They get a sense of where we're headed and how we are focused and what our strategy is. That allows us to really lock into what the customer's demanding. Second is flexibility with the elements that I talked about around social, economic and technology. It's very important for a flexible combination, because I kind of look at this age of cooptition as a battle of ecosystems. So, we are locked in with Nutanix in this battle of ecosystems, so in my role, I build value chains, and Nutanix is a critical partner in that value chain and being able to adopt to what the customers are demanding of us, and we are very specific about what we do in the market place. Because all of us have choices, and it's very important to be specific to solving customers' issues. It's been a great partnership-- >> It's interesting, we always talk on the Cube around automation. DevOps has been a big driver with multi cloud now. If you have all these value activities strung together in a set of value chains, no one company can own it all. But automation requires end-to-end visibility, so the big trend we're seeing is who's going to enable that? Because I can imagine, your environment you can talk to the top customers. We do the Cube hundreds of events a year. The same theme comes back over and over again on the Cube. It's a refrain. It's the anthem of the customer which is, look, I need to innovate my business model. I got to move quickly to a new operating model cloud. 'Cause they all taste the cloud, and they want the cloud everywhere. And then they want to make sure they have a technology partner. So all three of those theaters are exploding in innovation, and all at the same time. This has been a big challenge. How do you guys work together to address the business model innovation, the operating model challenges, the skill gaps training or whatever? And then obviously technology selection? >> So I think the most important thing is to be able to sense and engage, right? I think that's where it starts. If you've built a ecosystem of the value chain, in our case with Nutanix, in a way that we stay close to the consumer changes, we build a method of engagement that allows us to sense and engage better. I think that addresses a big part of what you talked about. Then it's about figuring out what elements of technology and being able to advise the customer in the right way in their journey to what they want to achieve in introducing those technologies to the table. >> Inder, I want to bring you in here on this. You are the EVP of customer success at Nutanix. You have a lot of success. You have net supporter scores on 90 which is really unheard of in this industry. I think so many people out there watching this want to know what is your secret sauce. How do you get that? (laughs) >> I think it's a combination of things. I think the first and foremost is being extremely customer centric in everything that you do, not as a function within the company but across the company. Customer success isn't just a function. It's a philosophy; it's a cultural value. It's a mindset; it's everybody's job. You got to start there. Second, you hire people who have a great deal of empathy for the customer and a great deal of expertise in what the customer is looking for. So to bring empathy and they're deeply technical in terms of bringing that expertise and actually applying that towards the customer's problems. And then, maybe the third thing I'd say is always being focused on the customer's outcomes as opposed to your own desire to either sell more services or more products or whatever, because if you're customer-outcome centric, everything else follows from that. Keeping that as a north star, I think has been the primary factor that's driven that. There's one other thing that I'd add to that, and that is something, I think, John, you were referring to a little bit earlier which is this notion of automation. So in the past, people would drive customer success by throwing more and more bodies at the problem, more and more people at the problem. That's so yesterday, right? Now it's all about, you still need people, absolutely, but you need to empower them with a great deal of data, with a great deal of insight, with a great deal of automation. Do that in real time, be predictive, be proactive, and so on. That last element, that secret sauce is pretty important. >> That's interesting. We had a session earlier; I talked about the tech landscape. We talked it out from cloud to politics, and how technology without accountability and responsibility with people can be a bad outcome. Right? (laughs) You give the tools to the wrong people, or someone, say government, doesn't know what the technology can do, bad outcomes happen. Same with cloud selection. When you start to get in some of these new areas where this market shift's going on, where there's real lives on the line in terms of jobs, re-skilling training, you guys are on the cusp of this next shift. You're on the front lines, putting it all together as a global SI for all the top customers. So digital's transformation, although it sounds very buzz-wordy, is actually real in the sense that these are material changes to companies, how they're operating and their business model. So the impact's pretty high, so the role of people is super important. What's going on there? How's the progress, in your view? Are customers ready? Are they getting trained up? Are their IQs moving faster? Are they more accountable? >> Couple of observations over there, I think I would say that in the last 90 days, I've probably met 100 customers. I don't think there's probably, with the exception of maybe a couple, I don't think there's been any conversation where talent hasn't come up. Specifically, the shortage of talent. Which is why, by the way, it becomes hugely critical for us to have partners like Cognizant with whom we have a fantastic relationship. They are so complementary and so critically interwoven into our skill and their skill jointly. Every customer basically says, look, I used to have a virtualization admin, a security admin, a network admin, a database admin, and this, that and the other. And what you've done is you've hyper-converged, not only technology but you've hyper-converged the roles. Well, hyper-converging the roles means you need one person instead of 10 people, but that one is really hard one to find. So help me train them and work with your partners to bring that capability. So talent shortage, especially as you move away from the larger metropolitan areas, is a real issue. And we're working towards that. We're trying to address that by making products simpler. As you know, that's been a hallmark of Nutanix is simplicity and support and service. Those have been our hallmark. So making it simpler is very key, but no matter how simple you make it, you still need that element of human intelligence, human touch, and the automation. Those are the ways. >> And the risk, too, from the customers, love to get the integration standpoint, because, one, that's a lever for you guys. You get leverage out of that. When you take 10 to one or reduce down the roles, hyper-converge things, but the outcome is pretty positive. You're enabling new things, but it allows for people to be redeployed, as well. The existing roles, they're not really going away. They just get shifted. So, yes we need more people, need new people, but also, the dynamic of fear. Is my job going away? So there's leverage and you get efficiencies and potentially redeployment capabilities. How's that affecting your job at Cognizant? >> So, at Cognizant, people are extremely core to the way we operate, so, as I mentioned, we are a $16 billion organization, but we are almost 200,000 people. 185,000, just to be precise. So, for us, the retraining and re-skilling of people is ingrained in the way we've operated since our inception 25 years ago. And it's about two, three things. One is a basic understanding that while technology curves at exponential, the change management in people are linear. So that fundamental understanding of that shift is very important that we continue to invest into the training and change management of individuals to allow them to progress through the value curve as technology shifts happen. And for that, you need both a culture and a structure for that to happen. And because we have grown through this environment, we have Cognizant Academy, and we have few other systems and processes and communication elements that we have put in place that allow our employees to grow as the technology shifts happen. That's one. Second piece is, I think, a very important reason why customers work with us is because we understand their industry. So we serve almost 20 industries, but almost 70 to 80% of our revenue comes from a few industries. And customers really engage and continue to work with us because of our deep understanding of their business, right? So it's this ability to be able to understand technology and the progress of technology from companies like Nutanix. And then, be able to stitch that appropriately to the business of the customer, and put a structure in place that allows the shift to happen, that allows us to grow. >> But going back to what Inder said earlier, so many of the skills that are necessary today, I mean, yes of course, it's about keeping up with the shifts in technology, but so many of the reasons that Nutanix has been successful is that its employees are empathetic, that they listen, that they're paying attention, that they ask good follow-up questions. So when you're talking about Cognizant Academy and the re-skilling, are you also helping them learn these important skills? >> No, I think, I have a 10-year-old son, so as I think about what his future would look like, I definitely feel that the relevance of IQ, as a race is reducing, and empathy to the point that Inder made and your EQ is far more important. And we live in this world where the virtual world is almost taking over the physical world. We're on that cusp, right? Somewhere. >> You're talking John's language there. (laughs) >> You can take a guess on who's ahead and who's losing. So it becomes very important not only to build a sense of empathy in the real world but also a sense of empathy in the virtual world, in the way you communicate with customers, in the way you listen to customers, how you listen to customers and engage. So that is a very critical component of how we train our employees so that we're continuously staying ahead, in terms of even sensing and engaging with them. >> One of the things that brings up in conversation we had earlier with a customer, they love the efficiencies of how you guys can collapse with the hyper convergence which you've done in modern enterprise now and going to the cloud, you know, hyper-converged clouds, we get that strategy, and I think it's going to be bigger than you guys forecast in my opinion. But what that really points to is a cultural shift. And the cultural shift is, okay, I had this before, all this legacy stuff. Then it's the question of, okay, how do I get people on the right tune here? How do I organize internally? So it's not so much a technology decision. It's more of a cultural decision. And so I asked the CIO of a big consumer company who came in to transform this big conglomerate. You'd know their name if I said it. He said, when he walked in, the biggest problem that they had is they outsourced everything in the 90s to the point where in the 2000s, they were so efficient. They had the storage admin, and they had all these roles, and they were holding the gear down. They had perimeter base security; they were perfect. But they had lost their competencies during software. So as the world shifts to software, a lot of CIOs are being asked essentially to build software teams. So the new changeover combined with the new efficiencies is they have to boot up development teams, infrastructure all the way to the top of the stacks. It's challenging, so I know you guys do a lot of work there, in this area, in helping companies transform. This is a huge challenge. How do you go from being lean and nimble, operationally, to having fewer core competency in software development, automation, machine learning? There's not enough people to hire, so this seems to be a core challenge. >> Yeah, I think if I look at the core challenge, in terms of areas to focus, clearly, people focus historically on infrastructure technologies. They need to focus on two additional areas. Let me elaborate what they are. One of them is absolutely the new move towards DevOps, containerization, those kinds of newer technologies that play not in the CIO's shop but in the development side of the house. And there's clearly a focus within Nutanix on the product side and on the people side to emphasize that, and we work with customers on that. The second thing is actually a little bit related to what Asvin was saying. What we find when we engage with customers is again and again if there's an issue, it turns out nine times out of 10 it's not because of a technology. It's either because there was an operational deficiency in their processes, or there was an organizational lack of proficiency or just something financial. So, when I put customer success managers onto accounts, the biggest thing that they do is they create a customer success plan that actually focuses number one on operational practices. Do you have run books? Do you have controls? Do you have automation? Do you have monitoring? Do you have callback information? Do you have all of that so that your processes are robust? It's entirely customer centric. It's independent of technology or only mildly related. That's one. Second, do you have the organizational skills, the capabilities that these people need to have? Can you get them sandboxes or training? Can you get them certified, et cetera, et cetera? Can you move them up? And then, of course, the last thing is financial which is, can you look at it in a larger context, not just of a technology decision but of a financial decision relative to total cost of ownership, return on the investment, cloud versus private, et cetera, et cetera. >> And software seems to be the theme in all of this. >> Software, absolutely-- >> Software rules. >> Software rules. (all laugh) Well, everyone's a software company now. >> Yes. >> That's right. Especially the Cube. (laughs) Inder, Asvin, thank you both so much for coming on the Cube. This was a pleasure. >> Absolutely, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching the Cube. (techno music)