>>We're back in Boston, the Cube's coverage of AWS reinforced 2022. My name is Dave ante. Steve Malanney is here as the CEO of Aviatrix longtime cube alum sort of collaborator on super cloud. Yeah. Uh, which we have an event, uh, August 9th, which you guys are participating in. So, um, thank you for that. And, yep. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thank you so great to be here as >>Always back in Boston. Yeah. I'd say good show. Not, not like blow me away. We were AWS, um, summit in New York city three weeks ago. I >>Took, heard it took three hours to get in >>Out control. I heard, well, there were some people two I, maybe three <laugh>, but there was, they expected like maybe nine, 10,000, 19,000 showed up. Now it's a free event. Yeah. 19,000 people. >>Oh, I didn't know it >>Was that many. It was unbelievable. I mean, it was packed. Yeah. You know, so it's a little light here and I think it's cuz you know, everybody's down the Cape, >>There are down the Cape, Rhode Island that's after the fourth. The thing is that we were talking about this. The quality of people are pretty good though. Yeah. Right. This is there's no looky lose it's everybody. That's doing stuff in cloud. They're moving in. This is no longer, Hey, what's this thing called cloud. Right. I remember three, four years ago at AWS. You'd get a lot of that, that kind of stuff. Some the summit meetings and things like that. Now it's, we're a full on deployment mode even >>Here in 2019, the conversation was like, so there's this shared responsibility model and we may have to make sure you understand. I mean, nobody's questioning that today. Yeah. It's more really hardcore best practices and you know how to apply tools. Yeah. You know, dos and don't and so it's a much more sophisticated narrative, I think. Yeah. >>Well, I mean, that's one of the things that Aviatrix does is our whole thing is architecturally. I would say, where does network security belong in the network? It shouldn't be a bolt on it. Shouldn't be something that you add on. It should be something that actually gets integrated into the fabric of the network. So you shouldn't be able to point to network security. It's like, can you point to the network? It's everywhere. Point to air it's everywhere. Network security should be integrated in the fabric and that wasn't done. On-prem that way you steered traffic to this thing called a firewall. But in the cloud, that's not the right architectural way. It it's a choke point. Uh, operationally adds tremendous amount of complexity, which is the whole reason we're going to cloud in the first place is for that agility and the ability to operationally swipe the card and get our developers running to put in these choke points is completely the wrong architecture. So conversations we're having with customers is integrate that security into the fabric of the network. And you get rid of all those, all those operational >>Issues. So explain that how you're not a, a checkpoint, but if you funnel everything into one sort of place >>In the, so we are a networking company, uh, it is uh, cloud networking company. So we, we were born in the cloud cloud native. We, we are not some on-prem networking solution that was jammed in the cloud, uh, wrapped >>In stack wrapped >>In, you know, or like that. No, no, no. And looking for wires, right? That's VM series from Palo. It doesn't even know it's in the cloud. Right. It's looking for wires. Um, and of course multicloud, cuz you know, Larry E said now, could you believe that on stage with sat, Nadela talking about multi-cloud now you really know we've crossed over to this is a, this is a thing, whoever would've thought you'd see that. But anyway, so we're networking. We're cloud networking, of course it's multi-cloud networking and we're gonna integrate these intelligent services into the fabric. And one of those is, is networking. So what happens is you should do security everywhere. So the place to do it is at every single point in the network that you can make a decision and you embed it and actually embed it into the network. So it's that when you're making a decision of does that traffic need to go somewhere or not, you're doing a little bit of security everywhere. And so what, it looks like a giant firewall effectively, but it's actually distributed in software through every single point in a network. >>Can I call it a mesh? >>It's kind of a mesh you can think of. Yeah, it's a fabric. >>Okay. It's >>A, it's a fabric that these advanced services, including security are integrated into that fabric. >>So you've been in networking much of >>Your career career, >>37 years. All your career. Right? So yay. Cisco Palo Alto. Nicera probably missing one or two, but so what do you do with all blue coat? Blue coat? What do you do with all that stuff? That's out there that >>Symantics. >>Yes. <laugh> keep going. >>Yeah, I think that's it. That's >>All I got. Okay. So what do you do with all that stuff? That's that's out there, you rip and replace it. You, >>So in the cloud you mean yeah. >>All this infrastructure that's out there. What is that? Well, you >>Don't have it in the right. And so right now what's happening is people, look, you can't change too many things. If you're a human, you know, they always tell you don't change a job, get married and have a kid or something all in the same year. Like they just, just do one of 'em cuz you it's too much. When people move to the cloud, what they do is they tend to take what they do on Preem and they say, look, I'm gonna change one thing. We're gonna go to the cloud, everything else. I'm gonna keep the same. Cuz I don't wanna change three things. So they kind of lift and shift their same mentality. They take their firewalls, their next gen fire. I want them, they take all the things that they currently do. And they say, I'm gonna try to do that in the cloud. >>It's not really the right way to do it. But sometimes for people that are on-prem people, that's the way to get started and I'll screw it up and not screw it up and, and not change too many things. And look, I'm just used to that. And, and then I'll, then I'll go to change things, to be more cloud native, then I'll realize I can get rid of this and get rid of that and do that. But, but that's where people are. The first thing is bring these things over. We help them do that, right? From a networking perspective, I'll make it easier to bring your old security stuff in. But in parallel to that, we start adding things into the fabric and what's gonna happen is eventually we start adding all these things and things that you can't do separately. We start doing anomaly detection. We start doing behavioral analysis. Why? Because the entire network, we are the data plan. We see everything. And so we can start doing things that a standalone device can't do because not all the traffic steered to them. It can only control what's steered to you. And then eventually what's happening is people look at that device. And then they look at us and then they look at the device and they look at us and they go, why do I have both of this? And we go, I don't know. >>You don't need it. >>Well, can I get rid of that other thing? That's a tool. >>Sure. And there's not a trade off. There's not a trade off. You >>Don't have to. No. Now people rid belts and suspenders. Yeah. Cause it's just, who has, who has enough? Who has too much security buddy? They're gonna, they're gonna do belt suspenders. You know anything they can do. But eventually what will happened is they'll look at what we do and they'll go, that's good enough. That happened to me. When I was at Palo Alto networks, we inserted as a firewall. They kept their existing firewall. They had all these other devices and eventually all those went away and you just had a NextGen >>Firewall just through attrition, >>Through Atian. You're like, you're looking, you go, well, that platform is doing all these functions. Same. Thing's gonna happen to us. The platform of networking's gonna do all your network security devices. So any tool or agent or external, you know, device that you have to steer traffic to ISS gonna go away. You're not gonna need it. >>And, and you talking multi-cloud obviously, >>And then don't wanna do the same thing. Whether man Azure, you know the same. >>Yeah. >>Same, same experie architecture, same experience, same set of services. True. Multi-cloud native. Like you, that's what you want. And oh, by the way, skill, gap, skill shortage is a real thing. And it's getting worse. Cause now with the recession, you think you're gonna be able to add more people. Nope. You're gonna have less people. How do I do this? Any multicloud world with security and all this kind of stuff. You have to put the intelligence in the software, not on your people. Right? >>So speaking of recession. Yep. As a CEO of a well funded company, that's got some momentum. How are you approaching it? Do you have like, did you bring in the war time? Conig I mean, you've been through, you know, downturns before. This is you are you >>I'm on war time already. >>Okay. So yeah. Tell me more about how you you're kind of approaching this >>So recession down. So didn't change what we were doing one bit, because I run it that way from the very beginning. So I've been around 30 years, that's >>Told me he he's like me. You know what he said? >>Yeah. Or maybe >>I'm like, I want be D cuz he said, you know, people talk about, you know, only do things that are absolutely necessary during times like this. I always do things that are only, >>That's all I >>Do necessary. Why would you ever do things that aren't necessary? >><laugh> you'd be surprised. Most companies don't. Yeah. Uh, recession's very good for people like snowflake and for us because we run that way anyway. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I, I constantly make decisions that we have to go and dip there's people that aren't right for the business. I move 'em out. Like I don't wait for some like Sequoia stupid rest in peace. The world's ending fire all your people that has no impact on me because I already operated that way. So we, we kind of operate that way and we are, we are like sat Nadel even came out and kind of said, I don't wanna say cloud is recession proof, but it kind of is, is we are so look, our top customer spends 5 million a year. Nothing. We haven't even started yet. David that's minuscule. We're not macro. We're micro 5 million a year for these big enterprises is nothing right. SA Nadel is now starting to count people who do billion dollar agreements with him billion over a period of number of years. Like that's the, the scale we have not even >>Gun billion dollar >>Agreements. We haven't even under begun to understand the scope of what's happening in the cloud. Right. And so yeah, the recession's happening. I don't know. I guess it's impacting somebody. It's not impacting me. It's actually accelerating things because it's a flight to quality and customers go and say, I can't get gear on on-prem anyway, cuz of the, uh, shortage, you know, the, uh, uh, get chips. Um, and that's not the right thing. So guess what the recession says, I'm gonna stop spending more money there and I'm gonna put it into the cloud. >>All right. So you opened up Pandora's box, man. I wanna ask you about your sort of management philosophy. When you come into a company to take, to go lead a company like that. Yeah. How, what, what's your approach to assess the team? Who do you, who do you decide? How do you decide who to keep on the bus? Who to throw off the bus put in the right seats. So how long does that take you? >>Doesn't take long. When I join, we were 30, 30, 8 people. We're now 525. Um, and my view on everything and I I've never met Frank Lubin, but I guarantee you, he has the same philosophy. You have a one year contract me included next year, the board might come to me and say, you were the right CEO for this year. You're not next year. Ben Horowitz taught me that it's a one year contract. There's no multi-year contract. So everybody in the company, including the CEO has a one year >>Contract. So you would say that to the board. Hey, if you can find somebody better, >>If, and, and you know what, I'll be the first one to pull myself, fire myself and say, we're, we're replacing me with somebody better right now. There isn't anybody better. So it's me. So, okay, next year maybe there's somebody better. Or we hit a certain point where I'm not the right guy. I'll I'll, I'll pull myself out as the CEO, but also internally the same thing just because you're the right guy this year. And we hire people for the, what you need to do this year. We're not gonna, we don't hire, oh, like this is the mistake. A lot of companies make, well, we wanna be a billion dollars in sales. So we're gonna go hire some loser from HPE. Who's worked at a company for a billion dollars. And by the way has no idea how they became a billion dollars, right. In revenue or billions of dollars. >>But we're gonna go hire 'em because they must know more than we do. And what every single time you bring them in what you realize, they're idiots. They have no idea how we got to that. And so you, you don't pre-hire for where you want to be. You hire for where you are that year. And then if it's not right, and then if it's not right, you'd be really nice to them. Have great severance packages, be, be respectful for people and be honest with them. I guarantee you Frank, Salman's not, if you're not just have this conversation with a sales guy before I came into here, very straight conversation, Northeast hockey player mentality. We're straight. If you're not working out or I don't think you're doing things right. You're gonna know. And so it's a one year, it's a one year contract. That's what you do. So you don't have time. You don't the luxury of >>Time. So, so that's probably the hardest part of, of any leadership job is, and people don't like confrontation. They like to put it off, but you don't run away from it. It's >>All in a confrontation, right? That's what relationships have built. Why do war buddies hang out with each other? Cuz they've gone through hell, right? It's in the confrontation. And it's, it's actually with customers too, right? If there's an issue, you don't run from it. You actually bring it up in a very straightforward manner and say, Hey, we got a problem, right? They respect you. You respect them, blah, blah, blah. And then you come out of it and go, you know, you have to fight like, look with your wife. You have to fight. If you don't fight, it's not a relationship you've gotta see in that, in that tension is where the relationship's >>Built. See, I should go home and have a fight tonight. You gotta have a fight with your wife. <laugh> you know, you mentioned Satia and Nadella and Larry Ellison. Interesting point. I wanna come back to that. What Oracle did is actually pretty interesting, do we? For their use case? Yeah. You know, it's not your thing. It's like low latency database across clouds. Yeah. Who would ever thought that? But >>We love it. We love it because it drives multi-cloud it drives. Um, and, and, and I actually think we're gonna have multi-cloud applications that are gonna start happening. Um, right now you don't, you have developers that, that, that kind of will use one cloud. But as we start developing and you call it the super cloud, right. When that starts really happening, the infrastructure's gonna allow that networking and network security is that bottom layer that Aviatrix helps once that gets all handled. The app, people are gonna say, so there's no friction. So maybe I can use autonomous database here. I can use this service from GCP. I can use that service and, and put it all into one app. So where's the app run. It's a multicloud app. Doesn't exist today. >>No, that doesn't happen today. >>It's it's happen. It's gonna happen. >>But that's kind of what the vision was. No, seven, eight years ago of what >>It's >>Gonna, that would be, you know, the original premise of hybrid. Right? Right. Um, I think Chuck Hollis, the guy was at EMC at the time he wrote this piece on, he called it private cloud, but he was really describing hybrid cloud application and running in both places that never happened. But it's starting to, I mean, the infrastructure is getting put in place to enable that, I guess is what you're saying. >>Yep. >>Yeah. >>Cool. And multicloud is, is becoming not just four plus one is a lot of enterprises it's becoming plus one, meaning you're gonna have more and more. And then there won't be infrastructure clouds like AWS and so forth, but it's gonna be industry clouds. Right? You've you've talked about that again, back to super clouds. You're gonna have Goldman Sachs creating clouds and you're gonna have AI companies creating clouds. You're gonna have clouds at the edge, you know, for edge computing and all these things all need to be networked with network security integrated. And you mentioned fact >>Aviatrix you mentioned Ben Horowitz, that's mark Andreesen. All, all companies are software companies. All companies are becoming cloud companies. Yeah. Or, or they're missing missing opportunities or they might get disrupted. >>Yeah. Every single company I talk to now, you know, whether you're Heineken, they don't think of themselves as a beer company anymore. We are the most technologically, you know, advanced brewer in the world. Like they all think they're a technology company. Now, whether you're making trucks, whether you're making sneakers, whether you're making beer, you're now a technology company, every single company in >>The world, we are too, we're we're building a media cloud. You're you know, John's, it's a technology company laying that out and yeah. That's we got developers doing that. That's our, that's our future. Yep. You know? Cool. Hey, thanks for coming on, man. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back right after this short break. It keeps coverage. AWS reinforced 20, 22 from Boston. Keep it right there. >>You tired? How many interviewed.

>>Welcome everyone to this cube conversation featuring unit Q. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. And we are excited to be joined by Christian Vickle, the founder and CEO of unit Q Christian. Thank you so much for joining me today. >>Thank you so much, Lisa pleasure to be here. >>Let's talk a little bit about unit Q. You guys were founded in 2018, so pretty recent. What is it that unit Q does. And what were some of the gaps in the market that led you to founding the company? >>Yep. So me and my co-founder Nick, we're actually doing our second company now is the unit Q is number two, and our first company was called scout years ago. We were back ES wicks and it was very different from unit Q. It's a social network for meeting people. And it was really during that experience where we saw the impact that quality of the experience quality of the product can have on your growth trajectory and the challenges we faced. How do we test everything before we ship it? And in reality, a modern company will have, let's say, 20 languages supported you support Android, Iowas, web big screen, small screen, you have 20 plus integrations and you have lots of different devices out there that might run your binary a little differently. So who is the ultimate test group of all of these different permutation and that's the end user. >>And we, we saw the, the big gap in the market, sort of the dream platform for us was unit queue. So if, if this would've existed back in the day, we would've been a, a happy purchaser and customer, and it really comes down to how do we, how do we harness the power of user feedback? You know, the end user, that's testing your product every single day in all different configurations. And then they're telling you that, Hey, something didn't work for me. I got double build or the passive recent link didn't work, or I couldn't, you know, when music, when the ad is finished playing on, on my app, the music doesn't resume. So how do we capture those signals into something that the company and different teams can align on? So that's where, you know, unit Q the, the vision here is to build a quality company, to help other companies build higher quality products. >>So really empowering companies to take a data driven approach to product quality. I was looking on your website and noticed that Pandora is one of your customers, but talk to me a little bit about a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Q unit he was delivering. >>Right? So maybe we should just go back one little step and talk about what is quality. And I think quality is something that is, is a bit subjective. It's something that we live and breathe every day. It's something that can be formed in an instant first impressions. Last it's something that can be built over time that, Hey, I'm using this product and it's just not working for me. Maybe it's missing features. Maybe there are performance related bots. Maybe there is there's even fulfillment related issues. Like we work with Uber and hello, fresh and, and other types of more hybrid type companies in addition to the Pandoras and, and Pinterest and, and Spotify, and these more digital, only products, but the, the end users I'm producing this data, the reporting, what is working and not working out there in many different channels. So they will leave app produce. >>They will write into support. They might engage with a chat support bot. They will post stuff on Reddit on Twitter. They will comment on Facebook ads. So like this data is dispersed everywhere. The end user is not gonna fill out a perfect bug report in a form somewhere that gets filed into gr like they're, they're producing this content everywhere in different languages. So the first value of what we do is to just ingest all of that data. So all the entire surface area of use of feedback, we ingest into a machine and then we clean the data. We normalize it, and then we translate everything into English. And it was actually a surprise to us when we started this company, that there are quite a few companies out there that they're only looking at feedback in English. So what about my Spanish speaking users? What about my French speaking users? >>And when, when, when that is done, like when all of that data is, is need to organized, we extract signals from that around what is impacting the user experience right now. So we break these, all of this data down into something called quality monitors. So quality monitor is basically a topic which can be again, passive reset, link noting, or really anything that that's impacting the end user. And the important part here is that we need to have specific actionable data. For instance, if I tell you, Hey, Lisa music stops playing is a growing trend that our users are reporting. You will tell me, well, what can I do with that? Like what specifically is breaking? So we deploy up to 1500 unique quality monitors per customer. So we can then alert different teams inside of the organization of like, Hey, something broke and you should take a look at it. >>So it's really breaking down data silos within the company. It aligns cross-functional teams to agree on what should be fixed next. Cause there's typically a lot of confusion, you know, marketing, they might say, Hey, we want this fixed engineering. They're like, well, I can't reproduce, or that's not a high priority for us. The support teams might also have stuff that they want to get fixed. And what we've seen is that these teams, they struggle to communicate. So how do we align them around the single source of truth? And I think that's for unit two is early identification of stuff. That's not working in production and it's also aligning the teams so they can quickly triage and say, yes, we gotta fix this right before it snowballs into something. We say, you know, we wanna, we wanna cap catch issues before you go into crisis PR mode, right? So we want to get this, we wanna address it early in the cycle. >>Talk to me about when you're in customer conversations, Christian, the MarTech landscape is competitive. There's nearly 10,000 different solutions out there, and it's growing really quickly quality monitors that you just described is that one of the key things that, that you talk to customers about, that's a differentiator for unit Q. >>Yeah. So I mean, it, it, it comes down to, as you're building your product, right, you, you have, you have a few different options. One is to build new features and we need to build new features and innovate and, and, and that's all great. We also need to make sure that the foundation of the product is working and that we keep improving quality and what, what we see with, with basically every customer that we work with, that, that when quality goes up, it's supercharges the growth machine. So quality goes up, you're gonna see less support tickets. You're gonna see less one star reviews, less one star reviews is of course good for making the store front convert better. You know, I, I want install a 4.5 star app, not a 3.9 star app. We also see that sentiment. So for those who are interested in getting that NPS score up for the next time we measure it, we see that quality is of course a very important piece of that. >>And maybe even more importantly, so sort of inside of the product machine, the different conversion steps, let's say sign up to activate it to coming back in second day, 30 day, 90 day, and so forth. We see a dramatic impact on how quality sort of moves that up and down the retention function, if you will. So it, it really, if you think about a modern company, like the product is sort of the center of the existence of the company, and if the product performs really well, then you can spend more money in marketing because it converts really good. You can hire more engineers, you can hire, you can hire more support people and so forth. So it's, it's really cool to see that when quality improves its supercharges, everything else I think for marketing it's how do you know if you're spending into a broken product or not? >>And I, and I, I feel like marketing has, they have their insights, but it's, it's not deep enough where they can go to engineering and say, Hey, these 10 issues are impacting my MPS score and they're impacting my conversion and I would love for you to fix it. And when you can bring tangible impact, when you can bring real data to, to engineering and product, they move on it cause they also wanna help build the company. And, and so I think that's, that's how we stand out from the more traditional MarTech, because we need to fix the core of, of sort of this growth engine, which is the quality of the product >>Quality of the product. And obviously that's directly related to the customer experience. And we know these days, one of the things I think that's been in short supply the last couple of years is patience. We know when customers are unhappy with the product or service, and you talked about it a minute ago, they're gonna go right to, to Reddit or other sources to complain about that. So being able to, for uniq, to help companies to improve the customer experience, isn't I think table stakes for businesses it's mission critical these days. Yeah, >>It is mission critical. So if you look at the, let's say that we were gonna start a, a music app. Okay. So how do we, how do we compete as a music app? Well, if you, if you were to analyze all different music apps out there, they have more or less the same features app. Like they, the feature differentiation is minimal. And, and if you launch a new cool feature than your competitor will probably copy that pretty quickly as well. So competing with features is really hard. What about content? Well, I'm gonna get the same content on Spotify as apple SD. So competing with content is also really hard. What about price? So it turns out you'll pay 9 99 a month for music, but there's no, there's no 1 99. It's gonna be 9 99. So quality of the experience is one of the like last vectors or areas where you can actually compete. >>And we see consistently that if you' beating your competition on quality, you will do better. Like the best companies out there also have the highest quality experience. So it's, it's been, you know, for us at our last company, measuring quality was something that was very hard. How do we talk about it? And when we started this company, I went out and talked to a bunch of CEOs and product leaders and board members. And I said, how do you talk about quality in a board meeting? And they were, they said, well, we don't, we don't have any metrics. So actually the first thing we did was to define a metrics. We have, we have this thing called this unit Q score, which is on our website as well, where we can base it's like the credit score. So you can see your score between zero and a hundred. >>And if your score is 100, it means that we're finding no quality issues in the public domain. If your score is 90, it means that 10% of the data we look at refers to a quality issue. And the definition of a quality issue is quite simple. It is when the user experience doesn't match the user expectation. There is a gap in between, and we've actually indexed the 5,000 largest apps out there. So we're then looking at all the public review. So on our website, you can go in and, and look up the unit Q score for the 5,000 largest products. And we republish these every night. So it's an operational metric that changes all the time. >>Hugely impactful. Christian, thank you so much for joining me today, talking to the audience about unit Q, how you're turning qualitative feedback into pretty significant product improvements for your customers. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you, Lisa, have a great day. >>You as well, per Christian Lin, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching a cube conversation.

(upbeat music) >> The stampede to cloud and massive VC investments has led to the emergence of a new generation of object store based data lakes. And with them two important trends, actually three important trends. First, a new category that combines data lakes and data warehouses aka the lakehouse is emerged as a leading contender to be the data platform of the future. And this novelty touts the ability to address data engineering, data science, and data warehouse workloads on a single shared data platform. The other major trend we've seen is query engines and broader data fabric virtualization platforms have embraced NextGen data lakes as platforms for SQL centric business intelligence workloads, reducing, or somebody even claim eliminating the need for separate data warehouses. Pretty bold. However, cloud data warehouses have added complimentary technologies to bridge the gaps with lakehouses. And the third is many, if not most customers that are embracing the so-called data fabric or data mesh architectures. They're looking at data lakes as a fundamental component of their strategies, and they're trying to evolve them to be more capable, hence the interest in lakehouse, but at the same time, they don't want to, or can't abandon their data warehouse estate. As such we see a battle royale is brewing between cloud data warehouses and cloud lakehouses. Is it possible to do it all with one cloud center analytical data platform? Well, we're going to find out. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to the data platform's power panel on theCUBE. Our next episode in a series where we gather some of the industry's top analysts to talk about one of our favorite topics, data. In today's session, we'll discuss trends, emerging options, and the trade offs of various approaches and we'll name names. Joining us today are Sanjeev Mohan, who's the principal at SanjMo, Tony Baers, principal at dbInsight. And Doug Henschen is the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank guys. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So it's early June and we're gearing up with two major conferences, there's several database conferences, but two in particular that were very interested in, Snowflake Summit and Databricks Data and AI Summit. Doug let's start off with you and then Tony and Sanjeev, if you could kindly weigh in. Where did this all start, Doug? The notion of lakehouse. And let's talk about what exactly we mean by lakehouse. Go ahead. >> Yeah, well you nailed it in your intro. One platform to address BI data science, data engineering, fewer platforms, less cost, less complexity, very compelling. You can credit Databricks for coining the term lakehouse back in 2020, but it's really a much older idea. You can go back to Cloudera introducing their Impala database in 2012. That was a database on top of Hadoop. And indeed in that last decade, by the middle of that last decade, there were several SQL on Hadoop products, open standards like Apache Drill. And at the same time, the database vendors were trying to respond to this interest in machine learning and the data science. So they were adding SQL extensions, the likes Hudi and Vertical we're adding SQL extensions to support the data science. But then later in that decade with the shift to cloud and object storage, you saw the vendor shift to this whole cloud, and object storage idea. So you have in the database camp Snowflake introduce Snowpark to try to address the data science needs. They introduced that in 2020 and last year they announced support for Python. You also had Oracle, SAP jumped on this lakehouse idea last year, supporting both the lake and warehouse single vendor, not necessarily quite single platform. Google very recently also jumped on the bandwagon. And then you also mentioned, the SQL engine camp, the Dremios, the Ahanas, the Starbursts, really doing two things, a fabric for distributed access to many data sources, but also very firmly planning that idea that you can just have the lake and we'll help you do the BI workloads on that. And then of course, the data lake camp with the Databricks and Clouderas providing a warehouse style deployments on top of their lake platforms. >> Okay, thanks, Doug. I'd be remiss those of you who me know that I typically write my own intros. This time my colleagues fed me a lot of that material. So thank you. You guys make it easy. But Tony, give us your thoughts on this intro. >> Right. Well, I very much agree with both of you, which may not make for the most exciting television in terms of that it has been an evolution just like Doug said. I mean, for instance, just to give an example when Teradata bought AfterData was initially seen as a hardware platform play. In the end, it was basically, it was all those after functions that made a lot of sort of big data analytics accessible to SQL. (clears throat) And so what I really see just in a more simpler definition or functional definition, the data lakehouse is really an attempt by the data lake folks to make the data lake friendlier territory to the SQL folks, and also to get into friendly territory, to all the data stewards, who are basically concerned about the sprawl and the lack of control in governance in the data lake. So it's really kind of a continuing of an ongoing trend that being said, there's no action without counter action. And of course, at the other end of the spectrum, we also see a lot of the data warehouses starting to edit things like in database machine learning. So they're certainly not surrendering without a fight. Again, as Doug was mentioning, this has been part of a continual blending of platforms that we've seen over the years that we first saw in the Hadoop years with SQL on Hadoop and data warehouses starting to reach out to cloud storage or should say the HDFS and then with the cloud then going cloud native and therefore trying to break the silos down even further. >> Now, thank you. And Sanjeev, data lakes, when we first heard about them, there were such a compelling name, and then we realized all the problems associated with them. So pick it up from there. What would you add to Doug and Tony? >> I would say, these are excellent points that Doug and Tony have brought to light. The concept of lakehouse was going on to your point, Dave, a long time ago, long before the tone was invented. For example, in Uber, Uber was trying to do a mix of Hadoop and Vertical because what they really needed were transactional capabilities that Hadoop did not have. So they weren't calling it the lakehouse, they were using multiple technologies, but now they're able to collapse it into a single data store that we call lakehouse. Data lakes, excellent at batch processing large volumes of data, but they don't have the real time capabilities such as change data capture, doing inserts and updates. So this is why lakehouse has become so important because they give us these transactional capabilities. >> Great. So I'm interested, the name is great, lakehouse. The concept is powerful, but I get concerned that it's a lot of marketing hype behind it. So I want to examine that a bit deeper. How mature is the concept of lakehouse? Are there practical examples that really exist in the real world that are driving business results for practitioners? Tony, maybe you could kick that off. >> Well, put it this way. I think what's interesting is that both data lakes and data warehouse that each had to extend themselves. To believe the Databricks hype it's that this was just a natural extension of the data lake. In point of fact, Databricks had to go outside its core technology of Spark to make the lakehouse possible. And it's a very similar type of thing on the part with data warehouse folks, in terms of that they've had to go beyond SQL, In the case of Databricks. There have been a number of incremental improvements to Delta lake, to basically make the table format more performative, for instance. But the other thing, I think the most dramatic change in all that is in their SQL engine and they had to essentially pretty much abandon Spark SQL because it really, in off itself Spark SQL is essentially stop gap solution. And if they wanted to really address that crowd, they had to totally reinvent SQL or at least their SQL engine. And so Databricks SQL is not Spark SQL, it is not Spark, it's basically SQL that it's adapted to run in a Spark environment, but the underlying engine is C++, it's not scale or anything like that. So Databricks had to take a major detour outside of its core platform to do this. So to answer your question, this is not mature because these are all basically kind of, even though the idea of blending platforms has been going on for well over a decade, I would say that the current iteration is still fairly immature. And in the cloud, I could see a further evolution of this because if you think through cloud native architecture where you're essentially abstracting compute from data, there is no reason why, if let's say you are dealing with say, the same basically data targets say cloud storage, cloud object storage that you might not apportion the task to different compute engines. And so therefore you could have, for instance, let's say you're Google, you could have BigQuery, perform basically the types of the analytics, the SQL analytics that would be associated with the data warehouse and you could have BigQuery ML that does some in database machine learning, but at the same time for another part of the query, which might involve, let's say some deep learning, just for example, you might go out to let's say the serverless spark service or the data proc. And there's no reason why Google could not blend all those into a coherent offering that's basically all triggered through microservices. And I just gave Google as an example, if you could generalize that with all the other cloud or all the other third party vendors. So I think we're still very early in the game in terms of maturity of data lakehouses. >> Thanks, Tony. So Sanjeev, is this all hype? What are your thoughts? >> It's not hype, but completely agree. It's not mature yet. Lakehouses have still a lot of work to do, so what I'm now starting to see is that the world is dividing into two camps. On one hand, there are people who don't want to deal with the operational aspects of vast amounts of data. They are the ones who are going for BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Synapse, and so on because they want the platform to handle all the data modeling, access control, performance enhancements, but these are trade off. If you go with these platforms, then you are giving up on vendor neutrality. On the other side are those who have engineering skills. They want the independence. In other words, they don't want vendor lock in. They want to transform their data into any number of use cases, especially data science, machine learning use case. What they want is agility via open file formats using any compute engine. So why do I say lakehouses are not mature? Well, cloud data warehouses they provide you an excellent user experience. That is the main reason why Snowflake took off. If you have thousands of cables, it takes minutes to get them started, uploaded into your warehouse and start experimentation. Table formats are far more resonating with the community than file formats. But once the cost goes up of cloud data warehouse, then the organization start exploring lakehouses. But the problem is lakehouses still need to do a lot of work on metadata. Apache Hive was a fantastic first attempt at it. Even today Apache Hive is still very strong, but it's all technical metadata and it has so many different restrictions. That's why we see Databricks is investing into something called Unity Catalog. Hopefully we'll hear more about Unity Catalog at the end of the month. But there's a second problem. I just want to mention, and that is lack of standards. All these open source vendors, they're running, what I call ego projects. You see on LinkedIn, they're constantly battling with each other, but end user doesn't care. End user wants a problem to be solved. They want to use Trino, Dremio, Spark from EMR, Databricks, Ahana, DaaS, Frink, Athena. But the problem is that we don't have common standards. >> Right. Thanks. So Doug, I worry sometimes. I mean, I look at the space, we've debated for years, best of breed versus the full suite. You see AWS with whatever, 12 different plus data stores and different APIs and primitives. You got Oracle putting everything into its database. It's actually done some interesting things with MySQL HeatWave, so maybe there's proof points there, but Snowflake really good at data warehouse, simplifying data warehouse. Databricks, really good at making lakehouses actually more functional. Can one platform do it all? >> Well in a word, I can't be best at breed at all things. I think the upshot of and cogen analysis from Sanjeev there, the database, the vendors coming out of the database tradition, they excel at the SQL. They're extending it into data science, but when it comes to unstructured data, data science, ML AI often a compromise, the data lake crowd, the Databricks and such. They've struggled to completely displace the data warehouse when it really gets to the tough SLAs, they acknowledge that there's still a role for the warehouse. Maybe you can size down the warehouse and offload some of the BI workloads and maybe and some of these SQL engines, good for ad hoc, minimize data movement. But really when you get to the deep service level, a requirement, the high concurrency, the high query workloads, you end up creating something that's warehouse like. >> Where do you guys think this market is headed? What's going to take hold? Which projects are going to fade away? You got some things in Apache projects like Hudi and Iceberg, where do they fit Sanjeev? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> So thank you, Dave. So I feel that table formats are starting to mature. There is a lot of work that's being done. We will not have a single product or single platform. We'll have a mixture. So I see a lot of Apache Iceberg in the news. Apache Iceberg is really innovating. Their focus is on a table format, but then Delta and Apache Hudi are doing a lot of deep engineering work. For example, how do you handle high concurrency when there are multiple rights going on? Do you version your Parquet files or how do you do your upcerts basically? So different focus, at the end of the day, the end user will decide what is the right platform, but we are going to have multiple formats living with us for a long time. >> Doug is Iceberg in your view, something that's going to address some of those gaps in standards that Sanjeev was talking about earlier? >> Yeah, Delta lake, Hudi, Iceberg, they all address this need for consistency and scalability, Delta lake open technically, but open for access. I don't hear about Delta lakes in any worlds, but Databricks, hearing a lot of buzz about Apache Iceberg. End users want an open performance standard. And most recently Google embraced Iceberg for its recent a big lake, their stab at having supporting both lakes and warehouses on one conjoined platform. >> And Tony, of course, you remember the early days of the sort of big data movement you had MapR was the most closed. You had Horton works the most open. You had Cloudera in between. There was always this kind of contest as to who's the most open. Does that matter? Are we going to see a repeat of that here? >> I think it's spheres of influence, I think, and Doug very much was kind of referring to this. I would call it kind of like the MongoDB syndrome, which is that you have... and I'm talking about MongoDB before they changed their license, open source project, but very much associated with MongoDB, which basically, pretty much controlled most of the contributions made decisions. And I think Databricks has the same iron cloud hold on Delta lake, but still the market is pretty much associated Delta lake as the Databricks, open source project. I mean, Iceberg is probably further advanced than Hudi in terms of mind share. And so what I see that's breaking down to is essentially, basically the Databricks open source versus the everything else open source, the community open source. So I see it's a very similar type of breakdown that I see repeating itself here. >> So by the way, Mongo has a conference next week, another data platform is kind of not really relevant to this discussion totally. But in the sense it is because there's a lot of discussion on earnings calls these last couple of weeks about consumption and who's exposed, obviously people are concerned about Snowflake's consumption model. Mongo is maybe less exposed because Atlas is prominent in the portfolio, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring up the little bit of controversy that we saw come out of the Snowflake earnings call, where the ever core analyst asked Frank Klutman about discretionary spend. And Frank basically said, look, we're not discretionary. We are deeply operationalized. Whereas he kind of poo-pooed the lakehouse or the data lake, et cetera, saying, oh yeah, data scientists will pull files out and play with them. That's really not our business. Do any of you have comments on that? Help us swing through that controversy. Who wants to take that one? >> Let's put it this way. The SQL folks are from Venus and the data scientists are from Mars. So it means it really comes down to it, sort that type of perception. The fact is, is that, traditionally with analytics, it was very SQL oriented and that basically the quants were kind of off in their corner, where they're using SaaS or where they're using Teradata. It's really a great leveler today, which is that, I mean basic Python it's become arguably one of the most popular programming languages, depending on what month you're looking at, at the title index. And of course, obviously SQL is, as I tell the MongoDB folks, SQL is not going away. You have a large skills base out there. And so basically I see this breaking down to essentially, you're going to have each group that's going to have its own natural preferences for its home turf. And the fact that basically, let's say the Python and scale of folks are using Databricks does not make them any less operational or machine critical than the SQL folks. >> Anybody else want to chime in on that one? >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. Python support in Snowflake is very nascent with all of Snowpark, all of the things outside of SQL, they're very much relying on partners too and make things possible and make data science possible. And it's very early days. I think the bottom line, what we're going to see is each of these camps is going to keep working on doing better at the thing that they don't do today, or they're new to, but they're not going to nail it. They're not going to be best of breed on both sides. So the SQL centric companies and shops are going to do more data science on their database centric platform. That data science driven companies might be doing more BI on their leagues with those vendors and the companies that have highly distributed data, they're going to add fabrics, and maybe offload more of their BI onto those engines, like Dremio and Starburst. >> So I've asked you this before, but I'll ask you Sanjeev. 'Cause Snowflake and Databricks are such great examples 'cause you have the data engineering crowd trying to go into data warehousing and you have the data warehousing guys trying to go into the lake territory. Snowflake has $5 billion in the balance sheet and I've asked you before, I ask you again, doesn't there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds? Does Snowflake go out and do M&A and maybe buy ad scale or a data mirror? Or is that just sort of a bandaid? What are your thoughts on that Sanjeev? >> I think semantic layer is the metadata. The business metadata is extremely important. At the end of the day, the business folks, they'd rather go to the business metadata than have to figure out, for example, like let's say, I want to update somebody's email address and we have a lot of overhead with data residency laws and all that. I want my platform to give me the business metadata so I can write my business logic without having to worry about which database, which location. So having that semantic layer is extremely important. In fact, now we are taking it to the next level. Now we are saying that it's not just a semantic layer, it's all my KPIs, all my calculations. So how can I make those calculations independent of the compute engine, independent of the BI tool and make them fungible. So more disaggregation of the stack, but it gives us more best of breed products that the customers have to worry about. >> So I want to ask you about the stack, the modern data stack, if you will. And we always talk about injecting machine intelligence, AI into applications, making them more data driven. But when you look at the application development stack, it's separate, the database is tends to be separate from the data and analytics stack. Do those two worlds have to come together in the modern data world? And what does that look like organizationally? >> So organizationally even technically I think it is starting to happen. Microservices architecture was a first attempt to bring the application and the data world together, but they are fundamentally different things. For example, if an application crashes, that's horrible, but Kubernetes will self heal and it'll bring the application back up. But if a database crashes and corrupts your data, we have a huge problem. So that's why they have traditionally been two different stacks. They are starting to come together, especially with data ops, for instance, versioning of the way we write business logic. It used to be, a business logic was highly embedded into our database of choice, but now we are disaggregating that using GitHub, CICD the whole DevOps tool chain. So data is catching up to the way applications are. >> We also have databases, that trans analytical databases that's a little bit of what the story is with MongoDB next week with adding more analytical capabilities. But I think companies that talk about that are always careful to couch it as operational analytics, not the warehouse level workloads. So we're making progress, but I think there's always going to be, or there will long be a separate analytical data platform. >> Until data mesh takes over. (all laughing) Not opening a can of worms. >> Well, but wait, I know it's out of scope here, but wouldn't data mesh say, hey, do take your best of breed to Doug's earlier point. You can't be best of breed at everything, wouldn't data mesh advocate, data lakes do your data lake thing, data warehouse, do your data lake, then you're just a node on the mesh. (Tony laughs) Now you need separate data stores and you need separate teams. >> To my point. >> I think, I mean, put it this way. (laughs) Data mesh itself is a logical view of the world. The data mesh is not necessarily on the lake or on the warehouse. I think for me, the fear there is more in terms of, the silos of governance that could happen and the silo views of the world, how we redefine. And that's why and I want to go back to something what Sanjeev said, which is that it's going to be raising the importance of the semantic layer. Now does Snowflake that opens a couple of Pandora's boxes here, which is one, does Snowflake dare go into that space or do they risk basically alienating basically their partner ecosystem, which is a key part of their whole appeal, which is best of breed. They're kind of the same situation that Informatica was where in the early 2000s, when Informatica briefly flirted with analytic applications and realized that was not a good idea, need to redouble down on their core, which was data integration. The other thing though, that raises the importance of and this is where the best of breed comes in, is the data fabric. My contention is that and whether you use employee data mesh practice or not, if you do employee data mesh, you need data fabric. If you deploy data fabric, you don't necessarily need to practice data mesh. But data fabric at its core and admittedly it's a category that's still very poorly defined and evolving, but at its core, we're talking about a common meta data back plane, something that we used to talk about with master data management, this would be something that would be more what I would say basically, mutable, that would be more evolving, basically using, let's say, machine learning to kind of, so that we don't have to predefine rules or predefine what the world looks like. But so I think in the long run, what this really means is that whichever way we implement on whichever physical platform we implement, we need to all be speaking the same metadata language. And I think at the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a lake, warehouse or a lakehouse, we need common metadata. >> Doug, can I come back to something you pointed out? That those talking about bringing analytic and transaction databases together, you had talked about operationalizing those and the caution there. Educate me on MySQL HeatWave. I was surprised when Oracle put so much effort in that, and you may or may not be familiar with it, but a lot of folks have talked about that. Now it's got nowhere in the market, that no market share, but a lot of we've seen these benchmarks from Oracle. How real is that bringing together those two worlds and eliminating ETL? >> Yeah, I have to defer on that one. That's my colleague, Holger Mueller. He wrote the report on that. He's way deep on it and I'm not going to mock him. >> I wonder if that is something, how real that is or if it's just Oracle marketing, anybody have any thoughts on that? >> I'm pretty familiar with HeatWave. It's essentially Oracle doing what, I mean, there's kind of a parallel with what Google's doing with AlloyDB. It's an operational database that will have some embedded analytics. And it's also something which I expect to start seeing with MongoDB. And I think basically, Doug and Sanjeev were kind of referring to this before about basically kind of like the operational analytics, that are basically embedded within an operational database. The idea here is that the last thing you want to do with an operational database is slow it down. So you're not going to be doing very complex deep learning or anything like that, but you might be doing things like classification, you might be doing some predictives. In other words, we've just concluded a transaction with this customer, but was it less than what we were expecting? What does that mean in terms of, is this customer likely to turn? I think we're going to be seeing a lot of that. And I think that's what a lot of what MySQL HeatWave is all about. Whether Oracle has any presence in the market now it's still a pretty new announcement, but the other thing that kind of goes against Oracle, (laughs) that they had to battle against is that even though they own MySQL and run the open source project, everybody else, in terms of the actual commercial implementation it's associated with everybody else. And the popular perception has been that MySQL has been basically kind of like a sidelight for Oracle. And so it's on Oracles shoulders to prove that they're damn serious about it. >> There's no coincidence that MariaDB was launched the day that Oracle acquired Sun. Sanjeev, I wonder if we could come back to a topic that we discussed earlier, which is this notion of consumption, obviously Wall Street's very concerned about it. Snowflake dropped prices last week. I've always felt like, hey, the consumption model is the right model. I can dial it down in when I need to, of course, the street freaks out. What are your thoughts on just pricing, the consumption model? What's the right model for companies, for customers? >> Consumption model is here to stay. What I would like to see, and I think is an ideal situation and actually plays into the lakehouse concept is that, I have my data in some open format, maybe it's Parquet or CSV or JSON, Avro, and I can bring whatever engine is the best engine for my workloads, bring it on, pay for consumption, and then shut it down. And by the way, that could be Cloudera. We don't talk about Cloudera very much, but it could be one business unit wants to use Athena. Another business unit wants to use some other Trino let's say or Dremio. So every business unit is working on the same data set, see that's critical, but that data set is maybe in their VPC and they bring any compute engine, you pay for the use, shut it down. That then you're getting value and you're only paying for consumption. It's not like, I left a cluster running by mistake, so there have to be guardrails. The reason FinOps is so big is because it's very easy for me to run a Cartesian joint in the cloud and get a $10,000 bill. >> This looks like it's been a sort of a victim of its own success in some ways, they made it so easy to spin up single note instances, multi note instances. And back in the day when compute was scarce and costly, those database engines optimized every last bit so they could get as much workload as possible out of every instance. Today, it's really easy to spin up a new node, a new multi node cluster. So that freedom has meant many more nodes that aren't necessarily getting that utilization. So Snowflake has been doing a lot to add reporting, monitoring, dashboards around the utilization of all the nodes and multi node instances that have spun up. And meanwhile, we're seeing some of the traditional on-prem databases that are moving into the cloud, trying to offer that freedom. And I think they're going to have that same discovery that the cost surprises are going to follow as they make it easy to spin up new instances. >> Yeah, a lot of money went into this market over the last decade, separating compute from storage, moving to the cloud. I'm glad you mentioned Cloudera Sanjeev, 'cause they got it all started, the kind of big data movement. We don't talk about them that much. Sometimes I wonder if it's because when they merged Hortonworks and Cloudera, they dead ended both platforms, but then they did invest in a more modern platform. But what's the future of Cloudera? What are you seeing out there? >> Cloudera has a good product. I have to say the problem in our space is that there're way too many companies, there's way too much noise. We are expecting the end users to parse it out or we expecting analyst firms to boil it down. So I think marketing becomes a big problem. As far as technology is concerned, I think Cloudera did turn their selves around and Tony, I know you, you talked to them quite frequently. I think they have quite a comprehensive offering for a long time actually. They've created Kudu, so they got operational, they have Hadoop, they have an operational data warehouse, they're migrated to the cloud. They are in hybrid multi-cloud environment. Lot of cloud data warehouses are not hybrid. They're only in the cloud. >> Right. I think what Cloudera has done the most successful has been in the transition to the cloud and the fact that they're giving their customers more OnRamps to it, more hybrid OnRamps. So I give them a lot of credit there. They're also have been trying to position themselves as being the most price friendly in terms of that we will put more guardrails and governors on it. I mean, part of that could be spin. But on the other hand, they don't have the same vested interest in compute cycles as say, AWS would have with EMR. That being said, yes, Cloudera does it, I think its most powerful appeal so of that, it almost sounds in a way, I don't want to cast them as a legacy system. But the fact is they do have a huge landed legacy on-prem and still significant potential to land and expand that to the cloud. That being said, even though Cloudera is multifunction, I think it certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. And the fact this is that yes, Cloudera has an operational database or an operational data store with a kind of like the outgrowth of age base, but Cloudera is still based, primarily known for the deep analytics, the operational database nobody's going to buy Cloudera or Cloudera data platform strictly for the operational database. They may use it as an add-on, just in the same way that a lot of customers have used let's say Teradata basically to do some machine learning or let's say, Snowflake to parse through JSON. Again, it's not an indictment or anything like that, but the fact is obviously they do have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think their greatest opportunity is with their existing base because that base has a lot invested and vested. And the fact is they do have a hybrid path that a lot of the others lack. >> And of course being on the quarterly shock clock was not a good place to be under the microscope for Cloudera and now they at least can refactor the business accordingly. I'm glad you mentioned hybrid too. We saw Snowflake last month, did a deal with Dell whereby non-native Snowflake data could access on-prem object store from Dell. They announced a similar thing with pure storage. What do you guys make of that? Is that just... How significant will that be? Will customers actually do that? I think they're using either materialized views or extended tables. >> There are data rated and residency requirements. There are desires to have these platforms in your own data center. And finally they capitulated, I mean, Frank Klutman is famous for saying to be very focused and earlier, not many months ago, they called the going on-prem as a distraction, but clearly there's enough demand and certainly government contracts any company that has data residency requirements, it's a real need. So they finally addressed it. >> Yeah, I'll bet dollars to donuts, there was an EBC session and some big customer said, if you don't do this, we ain't doing business with you. And that was like, okay, we'll do it. >> So Dave, I have to say, earlier on you had brought this point, how Frank Klutman was poo-pooing data science workloads. On your show, about a year or so ago, he said, we are never going to on-prem. He burnt that bridge. (Tony laughs) That was on your show. >> I remember exactly the statement because it was interesting. He said, we're never going to do the halfway house. And I think what he meant is we're not going to bring the Snowflake architecture to run on-prem because it defeats the elasticity of the cloud. So this was kind of a capitulation in a way. But I think it still preserves his original intent sort of, I don't know. >> The point here is that every vendor will poo-poo whatever they don't have until they do have it. >> Yes. >> And then it'd be like, oh, we are all in, we've always been doing this. We have always supported this and now we are doing it better than others. >> Look, it was the same type of shock wave that we felt basically when AWS at the last moment at one of their reinvents, oh, by the way, we're going to introduce outposts. And the analyst group is typically pre briefed about a week or two ahead under NDA and that was not part of it. And when they dropped, they just casually dropped that in the analyst session. It's like, you could have heard the sound of lots of analysts changing their diapers at that point. >> (laughs) I remember that. And a props to Andy Jassy who once, many times actually told us, never say never when it comes to AWS. So guys, I know we got to run. We got some hard stops. Maybe you could each give us your final thoughts, Doug start us off and then-- >> Sure. Well, we've got the Snowflake Summit coming up. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing data science, that are really employing Python through Snowflake, through Snowpark. And then a couple weeks later, we've got Databricks with their Data and AI Summit in San Francisco. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing considerable BI workloads. Last year I did a market overview of this analytical data platform space, 14 vendors, eight of them claim to support lakehouse, both sides of the camp, Databricks customer had 32, their top customer that they could site was unnamed. It had 32 concurrent users doing 15,000 queries per hour. That's good but it's not up to the most demanding BI SQL workloads. And they acknowledged that and said, they need to keep working that. Snowflake asked for their biggest data science customer, they cited Kabura, 400 terabytes, 8,500 users, 400,000 data engineering jobs per day. I took the data engineering job to be probably SQL centric, ETL style transformation work. So I want to see the real use of the Python, how much Snowpark has grown as a way to support data science. >> Great. Tony. >> Actually of all things. And certainly, I'll also be looking for similar things in what Doug is saying, but I think sort of like, kind of out of left field, I'm interested to see what MongoDB is going to start to say about operational analytics, 'cause I mean, they're into this conquer the world strategy. We can be all things to all people. Okay, if that's the case, what's going to be a case with basically, putting in some inline analytics, what are you going to be doing with your query engine? So that's actually kind of an interesting thing we're looking for next week. >> Great. Sanjeev. >> So I'll be at MongoDB world, Snowflake and Databricks and very interested in seeing, but since Tony brought up MongoDB, I see that even the databases are shifting tremendously. They are addressing both the hashtag use case online, transactional and analytical. I'm also seeing that these databases started in, let's say in case of MySQL HeatWave, as relational or in MongoDB as document, but now they've added graph, they've added time series, they've added geospatial and they just keep adding more and more data structures and really making these databases multifunctional. So very interesting. >> It gets back to our discussion of best of breed, versus all in one. And it's likely Mongo's path or part of their strategy of course, is through developers. They're very developer focused. So we'll be looking for that. And guys, I'll be there as well. I'm hoping that we maybe have some extra time on theCUBE, so please stop by and we can maybe chat a little bit. Guys as always, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug, Tony, Sanjeev, and let's do this again. >> It's been a pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and the excellent analyst. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public sector Welcome to the cubes Coverage of AWS 2020. This is specialized programming for the worldwide public sector. I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm joined by Mick Boccaccio, the security advisor at Splunk Met. Welcome to the Q Virtual Oh, >>thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>So you have a really interesting background that I wanted to share with our audience. You were the first see so in the history of U. S presidential campaigns with Mayor Pete, you were also branch shape of Threat intelligence at the executive office of the President. Tell us something about about your background is so interesting. >>Uh, yeah, those and I'm a gonna Def con and I teach lock picking for funds. Ease working for Mayor Pete A. C. So the campaign was really, really unique opportunity and I'm glad I did it. I'm hoping that, you know, on both sides of the aisle, no matter what your political preference, people realize that security and campaigns can only be married together. That was an incredible experience and worked with Mayor P. And I learned so much about how campaigns work and just the overall political process. And then previous to that being at the White House and a threat intelligence, role of branch chief they're working over the last election, the 2016 election. I think I learned probably more than any one person wants Thio about elections over that time. So, you know, I'm just a security nerd. That kind of fell into those things. And and and here I am and really, really, really just fortunate to have had those experiences. >>Your phone and your email must have been blowing up the last couple of weeks in the wake of the US presidential election, where the word fraud has brought up many times everyday. But election security. When I saw that you were the first, see so for Pete Buddha Judge, that was so recent, I thought, Really, Why? Why are they just now getting folks like yourself? And you are a self described a cybersecurity nerd? Why are they Why were they just recently starting to catch on to this? >>I think it's, uh like security on the campaign and security anywhere else on credit to the Buddha Judge campaign. There is no federal or mandate or anything like that that says your campaign has toe have a security person at the head of it or any standards to implement those security. So you know that the Buddha Judge campaign kind of leaned into it. We wanna be secure. We saw everything that happened in 2016. We don't want that to be us. And I think Mawr campaigns are getting on that plane. Definitely. You know, you saw recently, uh, Trump's campaign, Biden's campaign. They all had a lot of security folks in, and I think it's the normal. Now people realize how important security is. Uh, not only a political campaign, but I guess the political process overall, >>absolutely. We've seen the rise of cyber attacks and threats and threat vectors this year alone, Ransomware occurring. Everyone attack every 11 seconds or so I was reading recently. So give me an other view of what the biggest threats are right now. >>Two elections and I think the election process in general. You know, like I said, I'm just a security nerd. I've just got a weird background and done some really unique things. Eso I always attack the problems like I'm a security nerd and it comes down to, you know that that triumvirate, the people process and technology people need had to have faith in the process. Faith in the technology. You need to have a a clear source to get their information from the process. To me, I think this year, more than previous elections highlighted the lack of a federal uniforms standard for federal elections. State the state. We have different, different standards, and that kind of leads to confusion with people because, hey, my friend in Washington did it this way. But I'm in Texas and we do it this way. And I think that that standard would help a lot in the faith in the system. And then the last part of that. The technology, uh, you know, voting machines campaigns like I mentioned about campaigns. There's nothing that says a campaign has toe have a security person or a security program, and I think those are the kind of standards for, you know, just voting machines. Um, that needs to be a standard across the board. That's uniforms, so people will will have more faith because It's not different from state to state, and it's a uniformed process. >>E think whole country could have benefited from or uniformed processes in 2020. But one of the things that I like I did my first male and fellow this year always loved going and having that in person voting experience and putting on my sticker. And this year I thought in California we got all of our But there was this massive rise in mainland ballots. I mean, think about that and security in terms of getting the public's confidence. What are some of the things that you saw that you think needs to be uniforms going forward >>again? I think it goes back to when When you look at, you know, you voted by mail and I voted absentee and your ballot was due by this date. Um, you know where I live? Voting absentee. It's Dubai. This state needs we received by the state. Andi, I think this year really highlighted the differences between the states, and I'm hoping that election security and again everyone has done a super fantastic job. Um, sister has done incredible. If you're all their efforts for the working with election officials, secretaries of states on both sides of the aisle. It's an incredible work, and I hope it continues. I think the big problem election security is you know, the election is over, so we don't care again until 2022 or 2024. And I think putting something like a federalized standard, whether it be technology or process putting that in place now so that we're not talking about this in two or four years. I'm hoping that moment, um, continues, >>what would your recommendation be from building security programs to culture and awareness? How would you advise that they start? >>So, uh, one of the things that when I was on the Buddha Judge campaign, you know, like I said, we was the first person to do security for a campaign. And a lot of the staffers didn't quite have the background of professional background of work with security person. No, you know why? What I was doing there Eso my hallmark was You know, I'm trying to build a culture heavy on the cult. Um, you got to get people to buy in. I think this year when you look at what What Krebs and siesta and where the team over there have done is really find a way to tell us. Security story and every facet of the election, whether it be the machines themselves, the transporting the votes, counting the votes, how that information gets out to people websites I started like rumor control, which were were amazing amazing efforts. The public private partnerships that were there I had a chance to work with, uh, MJ and Tanya from from AWS some election project. I think everyone has skin in the game. Everyone wants to make it better. And I hope that moment, um, continues. But I think, you know, embracing that there needs to be a centralized, uniformed place, uh, for every state. And I think that would get rid of a lot of confusion >>when you talk about culture and you mentioned specifically called Do you think that people and agencies and politicians are ready to embrace the culture? Is there enough data to support that? This is really serious. We need to embrace this. We need to buy in a You said, um >>I hope right. I don't know what it could take. I'm hoping so after seeing everything you know, being at the White House from that aperture in 2016. Seeing all of that, I would, you know, think right away. Oh, my gosh. 2018, The midterms, We're gonna be on the ball. And that really didn't happen like we thought it would. 2020. We saw a different kind of technical or I guess, not as technical, uh, security problem. And I think I'm kind of shifting from that to the future. People realize. And I think, uh, both sides of the aisle are working towards security programs and security posture. I think there's a lot of people that have bought into the idea. Um, but I think it kind of starts from the top, and I'm hoping it becomes a standard, so there's not really an option. You will do this just for the security and safety of the campaigns and the electoral process. But I do see a lot more people leaning into it, and a lot more resource is available for those people that are >>talk to me about kind of the status of awareness of security. Needing to combat these issues, be able to remediate them, be able to defend against them where our folks in that awareness cycle, >>I think it ebbs and flows like any other process. Any other you know, incident, event. That happens. And from my experience in the info SEC world, normally there's a compromise. There's an incident, a bunch of money gets thrown at it and then we forget about it a year or two later. Um, I think that culture, that awareness comes in when you have folks that would sustain that effort. And again, you know, on the campaign, um, even at the White House, we try to make everyone apart of security. Security is and all the time thing that everyone has a stake in. Um, you know, I can lock down your email at work. I can make sure this system is super super secure, but it's your personal threat model. You know, your personal email account, your personal social media, putting more security on those and being aware of those, I think that's that awareness is growing. And I Seymour folks in the security community just kind of preaching that awareness more and more and something I'm really, really excited about. >>Yeah, the biggest thing I always think when we talk about security is people that were the biggest threat vector and what happened 89 months ago when so many businesses, um, in any, you know, public sector and private went from on site almost maybe 100% on site to 100% remote people suddenly going, I've got to get connected through my home network. Maybe I'm on my own personal device and didn't really have the time of so many distractions to recognize a phishing email just could come in and propagate. So it's that the people challenge e always seems to me like that might be the biggest challenge. Besides, the technology in the process is what do you think >>I again it goes back. I think it's all part of it. I think. People, um, I've >>looked at it >>slightly. Ah, friend of mine made a really good point. Once he was like, Hey, people gonna click on the link in the email. It's just I think 30% of people dio it's just it's just the nature of people after 20 some odd years and info sec, 20 some odd years and security. I think we should have maybe done a better job of making that link safer, to click on, to click on to make it not militias. But again it goes back, Thio being aware, being vigilant and to your point. Since earlier this year, we've seen a tax increase exponentially specifically on remote desktop protocols from Cove. It related themes and scams and, you know, ransomware targeting healthcare systems. I think it's just the world's getting smaller and we're getting more connected digitally. That vigilance is something you kind of have to building your threat model and build into the ecosystem. When we're doing everything, it's just something you know. I quit a lot, too. You've got junk email, your open your mailbox. You got some junk mail in there. You just throw it out. Your email inbox is no different, and just kind of being aware of that a little more than we are now might go a long way. But again, I think security folks want to do a better job of kind of making these things safer because malicious actors aren't going away. >>No, they're definitely not going away that we're seeing the threat surfaces expanding. I think it was Facebook and TIC Tac and Instagram that were hacked in September. And I think it was unsecured cloud database that was the vehicle. But talking about communication because we talk about culture and awareness communication from the top down Thio every level is imperative. How how do we embrace that and actually make it a standard as possible? >>Uh, in my experience, you know, from an analyst to a C So being able to communicate and communicate effectively, it's gonna save your butt, right? It's if you're a security person, you're You're that cyber guy in the back end, something just got hacked or something just got compromised. I need to be able to communicate that effectively to my leadership, who is gonna be non technical people, and then that leadership has to communicate it out to all the folks that need to hear it. I do think this year just going back to our elections, you saw ah lot of rapid communication, whether it was from DHS, whether it was from, you know, public partners, whether was from the team over Facebook or Twitter, you know, it was ah, lot of activity that they detected and put out as soon as they found it on it was communicated clearly, and I thought the messaging was done beautifully. When you look at all the work that you know Microsoft did on the block post that came out, that information is put out as widely as possible on. But I think it just goes back to making sure that the people have access to it whenever they need it, and they know where to get it from. Um, I think a lot of times you have compromised and that information is slow to get out. And you know that DeLay just creates a confusion, so it clearly concisely and find a place for people, could get it >>absolutely. And how do you see some of these challenges spilling over into your role as the security advisor for Splunk? What are some of the things that you're talking with customers about about right now that are really pressing issues? >>I think my Rolex Plunkett's super super weird, because I started earlier in the year, I actually started in February of this year and a month later, like, Hey, I'm hanging out at home, Um, but I do get a chance to talk to ah, lot of organizations about her security posture about what they're doing. Onda about what they're seeing and you know everything. Everybody has their own. Everybody's a special snowflakes so much more special than others. Um, credit to Billy, but people are kind of seeing the same thing. You know, everybody's at home. You're seeing an increase in the attack surface through remote desktop. You're seeing a lot more fishing. You're singing just a lot. People just under computer all the time. Um, Zoom WebEx I've got like, I don't know, a dozen different chat clients on my computer to talk to people. And you're seeing a lot of exploits kind of coming through that because of that, people are more vigilant. People are adopting new technologies and new processes and kind of finding a way to move into a new working model. I see zero trust architecture becoming a big thing because we're all at home. We're not gonna go anywhere. And we're online more than we're not. I think my circadian rhythm went out the window back in July, so all I do is sit on my computer more often than not. And that caused authentication, just, you know, make sure those assets are secure that we're accessing from our our work resource is I think that gets worse and worse or it doesn't. Not worse, rather. But that doesn't go away, no matter what. Your model is >>right. And I agree with you on that circadian rhythm challenge. Uh, last question for you. As we look at one thing, we know this uncertainty that we're living in is going to continue for some time. And there's gonna be some elements of this that air gonna be permanent. We here execs in many industries saying that maybe we're going to keep 30 to 50% of our folks remote forever. And tech companies that air saying Okay, maybe 50% come back in July 2021. As we look at moving into what we all hope will be a glorious 2021 how can businesses prepare now, knowing some amount of this is going to remain permanent? >>It's a really interesting question, and I'll beyond, I think e no, the team here. It's Plunkett's constantly discussions that start having are constantly evaluating, constantly changing. Um, you know, friends in the industry, it's I think businesses and those executives have to be ready to embrace change as it changes. The same thing that the plans we would have made in July are different than the plans we would have made in November and so on. Andi, I think, is having a rough outline of how we want to go. The most important thing, I think, is being realistic with yourself. And, um, what, you need to be effective as an organization. I think, you know, 50% folks going back to the office works in your model. It doesn't, But we might not be able to do that. And I think that constant ability Thio, adjust. Ah, lot of company has kind of been thrown into the fire. I know my backgrounds mostly public sector and the federal. The federal Space has done a tremendous shift like I never well, rarely got to work, uh, vert remotely in my federal career because I did secret squirrel stuff, but like now, the federal space just leaning into it just they don't have an option. And I think once you have that, I don't I don't think you put Pandora back in that box. I think it's just we work. We work remote now. and it's just a new. It's just a way of working. >>Yep. And then that couldn't be more important to embrace, change and and change over and over again. Make. It's been great chatting with you. I'd love to get dig into some of that secret squirrel stuff. I know you probably have to shoot me, so we will go into that. But it's been great having you on the Cube. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on election security. People processes technology, communication. We appreciate it. >>All right. Thanks so much for having me again. >>My pleasure for McClatchy. Oh, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube virtual.

>>on the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Hello and welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage Cube live here in Palo Alto, California, with the Virtual Cube this year because we can't be there in person. I'm your host, John Fairy year. We're kicking off Day two of the three weeks of reinvent a lot of great leadership sessions to review, obviously still buzzing from the Andy Jassy three. Our keynote, which had so many storylines, is really hard to impact. We're gonna dig that into into into that today with Jerry Chan, who has been a Cube alumni since the beginning of our AWS coverage. Going back to 2013, Jerry was wandering the hallways as a um, in between. You were in between vm ware and V C. And then we saw you there. You've been on the Cube every year at reinvent with us. So special commentary from you. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, John, Thanks for having me and a belated happy birthday as well. If everyone out there John's birthday was yesterday. So and hardest. Howard's working man in technology he spent his entire birthday doing live coverage of Amazon re events. Happy birthday, buddy. >>Well, I love my work. I love doing this. And reinvent is the biggest event of the year because it really is. It's become a bellwether and eso super excited to have you on. We've had great conversations by looking back at our conversations over the Thanksgiving weekend. Jerry, the stuff we were talking about it was very proposed that Jassy is leaning in with this whole messaging around change and horizontal scalability. He didn't really say that, but he was saying you could disrupt in these industries and still use machine learning. This was some of the early conversations we were having on the Cube. Now fast forward, more mainstream than ever before. So big, big part of the theme there. >>Yeah, it z you Amazon reinvent Amazon evolution to your point, right, because it's both reinventing what countries are using with the cloud. But also what Amazon's done is is they're evolving year after year with their services. So they start a simple infrastructure, you know, s three and e c. Two. And now they're building basically a lot of what Andy said you actually deconstructed crm? Ah, lot of stuff they're doing around the call centers, almost going after Salesforce with kind of a deconstructed CRM services, which is super interesting. But the day you know, Amazon announces all those technologies, not to mention the AI stuff, the seminar stuff you have slack and inquired by Salesforce for $27.7 billion. So ah, lot of stuff going on in the cloud world these days, and it's funny part of it, >>you know, it really is interesting. You look up the slack acquisition by, um, by Salesforce. It's interesting, you know, That kind of takes slack out of the play here. I mean, they were doing really well again. Message board service turns into, um, or collaboration software. They hit the mainstream. They have great revenue. Is that going to really change the landscape of the industry for Salesforce? They've got to acquire it. It opens the door up from, or innovation. And it's funny you mention the contact Center because I was pressing Jassy on my exclusive one on one with him. Like they said, Andy, my my daughter and my sons, they don't use the phone. They're not gonna call. What's this? Is it a call center deal? And he goes, No, it's the It's about the contact. So think about that notion of the contact. It's not about the call center. It's the point of contact. Okay, Linked in is with Microsoft. You got slack and Salesforce Contact driven collaboration. Interesting kind of play for Microsoft to use voice and their data. What's your take on that? >>I think it's, um you know, I have this framework. As you know, I talked my friend systems of engagement over systems intelligence and systems record. Right? And so you could argue voice email slack because we're all different systems of engagement, and they sit on top of system of record like CRM customer support ticketing HR. Something like that. Now what sells first did by buying slack is they now own a system engagement, right? Not on Lee is slack. A system engagement for CRM, but also system engagement for E. R. P Service. Now is how you interact with a bunch of applications. And so if you think about sales for strategy in the space, compete against Marcus Soft or serves now or other large AARP's now they own slack of system engagement, that super powerful way to actually compete against rival SAS companies. Because if you own the layer engagement layer, you can now just intermediate what's in the background. Likewise, the context center its own voice. Email, chat messaging, right? You can just inter mediate this stuff in the back, and so they're trying to own the system engagement. And then, likewise, Facebook just bought that company customer a week ago for a billion dollars, which also Omni Channel support because it is chat messaging voice. It's again the system engagement between End User, which could be a customer or could be employees. >>You know, this really gonna make Cit's enterprise has been so much fun over the past 10 years, I gotta say, in the past five, you know, it's been even more fun, has become or the new fun area, you know, And the impact to enterprise has been interesting because and we're talking about just engaging system of record. This is now the new challenge for the enterprise. So I wanna get your thoughts, Jerry, because how you see the Sea, X O's and CSOs and the architects out there trying to reinvent the enterprise. Jassy saying Look and find the truth. Be on the right side of history here. Certainly he's got himself service interest there, but there is a true band eight with Cove it and with digital acceleration for the enterprise to change. Um, given all these new opportunities Thio, revolutionize or disrupt or radically improve, what's the C. C X's do? What's your take on? How do you see that? >>It's increasingly messy for the CXS, and I don't I don't envy them, right? Because back in the day they kind of controlled all the I t spend and kind of they had a standard of what technologies they use in the company. And then along came Amazon in cloud all of sudden, like your developers and Dio Hey, let me swipe my credit card and I'm gonna access to a bunch of a P I s around computing stories. Likewise. Now they could swipe the credit card and you strike for billing, right? There's a whole bunch of services now, so it becomes incumbent upon CSOs. They need Thio new set of management tools, right? So not only just like, um, security tools they need, they need also observe ability, tools, understanding what services are being used by the customers, when and how. And I would say the following John like CSOs is both a challenge for them. But I think if I was a C X, so I'll be pretty excited because now I have a bunch of other weapons and other bunch of services I could offer. My end users, my developers, my employees, my customers and, you know it's exciting for them is not only could they do different things, but they also changed how their business being done. And so I think both interact with their end users. Be a chat like slack or be a phone like a contact center or instagram for your for your for your kids. It's actually a new challenge if I were sick. So it's it's time to build again, you know, I think Cove it has said it is time to build again. You can build >>to kind of take that phrase from the movie Shawshank Redemption. Get busy building or get busy dying. Kinda rephrase it there. And that's kind of the theme I'm seeing here because covert kind of forced people saying, Look, this things like work at home. Who would have thought 100% people would be working at home? Who would have thought that now the workloads gonna change differently? So it's an opportunity to deconstruct or distant intermediate these services. And I think, you know, in all the trends that I've seen over my career, it's been those inflection points where breaking the monolith or breaking the proprietary piece of it has always been an opportunity for for entrepreneur. So you know, and and for companies, whether you're CEO or startup by decomposing and you can come in and create value E I think to me, snowflake going public on the back of Amazon. Basically, this is interesting. I mean, so you don't have to be. You could kill one feature and nail it and go big. >>I think we talked to the past like it's Amazon or Google or Microsoft Gonna win. Everything is winner take all winner take most, and you could argue that it's hard to find oxygen as a start up in a broad platform play. But we think Snowflake and other companies have done and comes like mongo DB, for example, elastic have shown that if you can pick a service or a problem space and either developed like I p. That's super deep or own developer audience. You can actually fight the big guys. The Big Three cloud vendors be Amazon, Google or or market soft in different markets. And I think if you're a startup founder, you should not be afraid of competing with the big cloud vendors because there there are success patterns and how you can win and you know and create a lot of value. So I have found Investor. I'm super excited by that because, you know, I don't think you're gonna find a company takedown Amazon completely because they're just the scale and the network effects is too large. But you can create a lot of value and build Valuable comes like snowflake in and around the Amazon. Google Microsoft Ecosystem. >>Yeah, I want to get your thoughts. You have one portfolio we've covered rock rock set, which does a lot of sequel. Um, one of your investments. Interesting part of the Kino yesterday was Andy Jassy kind of going after Microsoft saying Windows sequel server um, they're targeting that with this new, uh, tool, but, you know, sucks in the database of it is called the Babel Fish for Aurora for post Chris sequel. Um, well, how was your take on that? I mean, obviously Microsoft big. Their enterprise sales tactics are looking like more like Oracle, which he was kind of hinting at and commenting on. But sequel is Lingua Franca for data >>correct. I think we went to, like, kind of a no sequel phase, which was kind of a trendy thing for a while and that no sequel still around, not only sequel like mongo DB Document TV. Kind of that interface still holds true, but your point. The world speaks sequel. All your applications be sequel, right? So if you want backwards, compatibility to your applications speaks equal. If you want your tire installed base of employees that no sequel, we gotta speak sequel. So, Rock said, when the first public conversations about what they're building was on on the key with you and Me and vent hat, the founder. And what Rock said is doing their building real time. Snowflake Thio, Lack of better term. It's a real time sequel database in the cloud that's super elastic, just like Snowflake is. But unlike snowflake, which is a data warehouse mostly for dashboards and analytics. Rock set is like millisecond queries for real time applications, and so think of them is the evolution of where cloud databases air going is not only elastic like snowflake in the cloud like Snowflake. We're talking 10 15 millisecond queries versus one or two second queries, and I think what any Jassy did and Amazon with bowel officials say, Hey, Sequels, Legal frank of the cloud. There's a large installed base of sequel server developers out there and applications, and we're gonna use Babel fish to kind of move those applications from on premise the cloud or from old workload to the new workloads. And, I think, the name of the game. For for cloud vendors across the board, big and small startups thio Google markets, often Amazon is how do you reduce friction like, How do you reduce friction to try a new service to get your data in the cloud to move your data from one place to the next? And so you know, Amazon is trying to reduce friction by using Babel fish, and I think it is a great move by them. >>Yeah, by the way. Not only is it for Aurora Post Chris equal, they're also open sourcing it. So that's gonna be something that is gonna be interesting to play out. Because once they open source it essentially, that's an escape valve for locking. I mean, if you're a Microsoft customer, I mean, it ultimately is. Could be that Gateway drug. It's like it is ultimately like, Hey, if you don't like the licensing, come here. Now there's gonna be some questions on the translations. Um, Vince, um, scuttlebutt about that. But we'll see it's open source. We'll see what goes on. Um great stuff on on rocks that great. Great. Start up next. Next, uh, talk track I wanna get with you is You know, over the years, you know, we've talked about your history. We're gonna vm Where, uh, now being a venture capitalist. Successful, wanted Greylock. You've seen the waves, and I would call it the two ways pre cloud Early days of cloud. And now, with co vid, we're kind of in the, you know, not just born in the cloud Total cloud scale cloud operations. This is kind of what jazz he was going after. E think I tweeted Cloud is eating the world and on premise and the edges. What it's hungry for. It kind of goof on mark injuries since quote a software eating the world. This is where it's going. So it's a whole another chapter coming. You saw the pre cloud you saw Cloud. Now we've got basically global I t everything else >>It's cloud only I would say, You know, we saw pre cloud right the VM ware days and before that he called like, you know, data centers. I would say Amazon lawns of what, 6 4007, the Web services. So the past 14 15 years have been what I've been calling cloud transition, right? And so you had cos technologies that were either doing on migration from on premise and cloud or hybrid on premise off premise. And now you're seeing a generation of technologies and companies. Their cloud only John to your point. And so you could argue that this 15 year transitions were like, you know, Thio use a bad metaphor like amphibians. You're half in the water, half on land, you know, And like, you know, you're not You're not purely cloud. You're not purely on premise, but you can do both ways, and that's great. That's great, because that's a that's a dominant architecture today. But come just like rock set and snowflake, your cloud only right? They're born in the cloud, they're built on the cloud And now we're seeing a generation Startups and technology companies that are cloud only. And so, you know, unlike you have this transitionary evolution of like amphibians, land and sea. Now we have ah, no mammals, whatever that are Onley in the cloud Onley on land. And because of that, you can take advantage of a whole different set of constraints that are their cloud. Only that could build different services that you can't have going backwards. And so I think for 2021 forward, we're going to see a bunch of companies or cloud only, and they're gonna look very, very different than the previous set of companies the past 15 years. And as an investor, as you covering as analysts, is gonna be super interesting to see the difference. And if anything, the cloud only companies will accelerate the move of I t spending the move of mawr developers to the cloud because the cloud only technologies are gonna be so much more compelling than than the amphibians, if you will. >>Yeah, insisting to see your point. And you saw the news announcement had a ton of news, a ton of stage making right calls, kind of the democratization layer. We'll look at some of the insights that Amazon's getting just as the monster that they are in terms of size. The scope of what? Their observation spaces. They're seeing all these workloads. They have the Dev Ops guru. They launched that Dev Ops Guru thing I found interesting. They got data acquisition, right? So when you think about these new the new data paradigm with cloud on Lee, it opens up new things. Um, new patterns. Um, S o. I think I think to me. I think that's to me. I see where this notion of agility moves to a whole nother level, where it's it's not just moving fast, it's new capabilities. So how do you How do you see that happening? Because this is where I think the new generation is gonna come in and be like servers. Lambs. I like you guys actually provisioned E c. Two instances before I was servers on data centers. Now you got ec2. What? Lambda. So you're starting to see smaller compute? Um, new learnings, All these historical data insights feeding into the development process and to the application. >>I think it's interesting. So I think if you really want to take the next evolution, how do you make the cloud programmable for everybody? Right. And I think you mentioned stage maker machine learning data scientists, the sage maker user. The data scientists, for example, does not on provisioned containers and, you know, kodama files and understand communities, right? Like just like the developed today. Don't wanna rack servers like Oh, my God, Jerry, you had Iraq servers and data center and install VM ware. The generation beyond us doesn't want to think about the underlying infrastructure. You wanna think about it? How do you just program my app and program? The cloud writ large. And so I think where you can see going forward is two things. One people who call themselves developers. That definition has expanded the past 10, 15 years. It's on Lee growing, so everyone is gonna be developed right now from your white collar knowledge worker to your hard core infrastructure developer. But the populist developers expanding especially around machine learning and kind of the sage maker audience, for sure. And then what's gonna happen is, ah, law. This audience doesn't want to care about the stuff you just mentioned, John in terms of the online plumbing. So what Amazon Google on Azure will do is make that stuff easy, right? Or a starved could make it easy. And I think that the move towards land and services that moved specifically that don't think about the underlying plumbing. We're gonna make it easy for you. Just program your app and then either a startup, well, abstract away, all the all the underlying, um, infrastructure bits or the big three cloud vendors to say, you know, all this stuff would do in a serverless fashion. So I think serverless as, ah paradigm and have, quite frankly, a battlefront for the Big Three clouds and for startups is probably one in the front lines of the next generation. Whoever owns this kind of program will cloud model programming the Internet program. The cloud will be maybe the next platform the next 10 or 15 years. I still have two up for grabs. >>Yeah, I think that is so insightful. I think that's worth calling out. I think that's gonna be a multi year, um, effort. I mean, look at just how containers now, with ks anywhere and you've got the container Service of control plane built in, you got, you know, real time analytics coming in from rock set. And Amazon. You have pinned Pandora Panorama appliance that does machine learning and computer vision with sensors. I mean, this is just a whole new level of purpose built stuff software powered software operated. So you have this notion of Dev ops going to hand in the glove software and operations? Kind of. How do you operate this stuff? So I think the whole new next question was Okay, this is all great. But Amazon's always had this problem. It's just so hard. Like there's so much good stuff. Like, who do you hired operate it? It is not yet programmable. This has been a big problem for them. Your thoughts on that, >>um e think that the data illusion around Dev ops etcetera is the solution. So also that you're gonna have information from Amazon from startups. They're gonna automate a bunch of the operations. And so, you know, I'm involved to come to Kronos Fear that we talked about the past team kind of uber the Bilson called m three. That's basically next generation data dog. Next generation of visibility platform. They're gonna collect all the data from the applications. And once they have their your data, they're gonna know how to operate and automate scaling up, scaling down and the basic remediation for you. So you're going to see a bunch of tools, take the information from running your application infrastructure and automate exactly how to scale and manager your app. And so AI and machine learning where large John is gonna be, say, make a lot of plumbing go away or maybe not completely, but lets you scale better. So you, as a single system admin are used. A single SRE site reliability engineer can scale and manage a bigger application, and it's all gonna be around automation and and to your point, you said earlier, if you have the data, that's a powerful situations. Once have the data can build models on it and can start building solutions on the data. And so I think What happens is when Bill this program of cloud for for your, you know, broad development population automating all this stuff becomes important. So that's why I say service or this, You know, automation of infrastructure is the next battleground for the cloud because whoever does that for you is gonna be your virtualized back and virtualized data center virtualized SRE. And if whoever owns that, it's gonna be a very, very strategic position. >>Yeah, it's great stuff. This is back to the theme of this notion of virtualization is now gone beyond server virtualization. It's, you know, media virtualization with the Cube. My big joke here with the Q virtual. But it's to your point. It's everything can now be replicated in software and scale the cloud scale. So it's super big opportunity for entrepreneurs and companies. Thio, pivot and differentiate. Uh, the question I have for you next is on that thread Huge edge discussion going on, right. So, you know, I think I said it two years ago or three years ago. The data center is just a edges just a big fat edge. Jassy kind of said that in his keynote Hey, looks at that is just a Nedum point with his from his standpoint. But you have data center. You have re alleges you've got five G with wavelength. This local zone concept, which is, you know, Amazon in these metro areas reminds me the old wireless point of presence kind of vibe. And then you've got just purpose built devices like cameras and factory. So huge industrial innovation, robotics, meet software. I mean, whole huge edge development exploding, Which what's your view of this? And how do you look at that from? Is an investor in industry, >>I think edges both the opportunity for start ups and companies as well as a threat to Amazon, right to the reason why they have outposts and all the stuff the edges if you think about, you know, decentralizing your application and moving into the eggs from my wearable to my home to my car to my my city block edges access Super interesting. And so a couple things. One companies like Cloudflare Fastly company I'm involved with called Kato Networks that does. SAS is secure access service edge write their names and the edges In the category definition sassy is about How do you like get compute to the edge securely for your developers, for your customers, for your workers, for end users and what you know comes like Cloudflare and Kate have done is they built out a network of pops across the world, their their own infrastructure So they're not dependent upon. You know, the big cloud providers, the telco providers, you know, they're partnering with Big Cloud, their parting with the telcos. But they have their own kind of system, our own kind of platform to get to the edge. And so companies like Kato Networks in Cloud Player that have, ah, presence on the edge and their own infrastructure more or less, I think, are gonna be in a strategic position. And so Kate was seen benefits in the past year of Of of Cove it and locked down because more remote access more developers, Um, I think edge is gonna be a super great area development going forward. I think if you're Amazon, you're pushing to the edge aggressively without post. I think you're a developer startup. You know, creating your own infrastructure and riding this edge wave could be a great way to build a moat against a big cloud guy. So I'm super excited. You think edge in this whole idea of your own infrastructure. Like what Kato has done, it is gonna be super useful going forward. And you're going to see more and more companies. Um, spend the money to try to copy kind of, ah, Cloudflare Kato presence around the world. Because once you own your own kind of, um, infrastructure instead of pops and you're less depend upon them a cloud provider, you're you're in a good position because there's the Amazon outage last week and I think like twilio and a bunch of services went down for for a few hours. If you own your own set of pops, your independent that it is actually really, really secure >>if you and if they go down to the it's on you. But that was the kinesis outage that they had, uh, they before Thanksgiving. Um, yeah, that that's a problem. So on this on. So I guess the question for you on that is that Is it better to partner with Amazon or try to get a position on the edge? Have them either by you or computer, create value or coexist? How do you see that that strategy move. Do you coexist? Do you play with them? >>E think you have to co exist? I think that the partner coexist, right? I think like all things you compete with Amazon. Amazon is so broad that will be part of Amazon and you're gonna compete with and that's that's fair game, you know, like so Snowflake competes against red shift, but they also part of Amazon's. They're running Amazon. So I think if you're a startup trying to find the edge, you have to coexist in Amazon because they're so big. Big cloud, right, The Big three cloud Amazon, Google, Azure. They're not going anywhere. So if you're a startup founder, you definitely coexist. Leverage the good things of cloud. But then you gotta invest in your own edge. Both both figure early what? Your edge and literally the edge. Right. And I think you know you complement your edge presence be it the home, the car, the city block, the zip code with, you know, using Amazon strategically because Amazon is gonna help you get two different countries, different regions. You know you can't build a company without touching Amazon in some form of fashion these days. But if you're a star found or doing strategically, how use Amazon and picking how you differentiate is gonna be key. And if the differentiation might be small, John. But it could be super valuable, right? So maybe only 10 or 15%. But that could be ah Holton of value that you're building on top of it. >>Yeah, and there's a little bit of growth hack to with Amazon if you you know how it works. If you compete directly against the core building blocks like a C two has three, you're gonna get killed, right? They're gonna kill you if the the white space is interest. In the old days in Microsoft, you had a white space. They give it to you or they would roll you over and level you out. Amazon. If you're a customer and you're in a white space and do better than them, they're cool with that. They're like, basically like, Hey, if you could innovate on behalf of the customer, they let you do that as long as you have a big bill. Yeah. Snowflakes paying a lot of money to Amazon. Sure, but they also are doing a good job. So again, Amazon has been very clear on that. If you do a better job than us for, the customer will do it. But if they want Amazon Red Shift, they want Amazon Onley. They can choose that eso kind of the playbook. >>I think it is absolutely right, John is it sets from any jassy and that the Amazon culture of the customer comes first, right? And so whatever is best for the customer that's like their their mission statement. So whatever they do, they do for the customer. And if you build value for the customer and you're on top of Amazon, they'll be happy. You might compete with some Amazon services, which, no, the GM of that business may not be happy, but overall. Net Net. Amazon's getting a share of those dollars that you're that you're charging the customer getting a share of the value you're creating. They're happy, right? Because you know what? The line rising tide floats all the boats. So the Mork cloud usage is gonna only benefit the Big Three cloud providers Amazon, particularly because they're the biggest of the three. But more and more dollars go the cloud. If you're helping move more. Absolute cloud helping build more solutions in the cloud. Amazon is gonna be happy because they know that regardless of what you're doing, you will get a fraction of those dollars. Now, the key for a startup founder and what I'm looking for is how do we get mawr than you know? A sliver of the dollars. How to get a bigger slice of the pie, if you will. So I think edge and surveillance or two areas I'm thinking about because I think there are two areas where you can actually invest, own some I p owned some surface area and capture more of the value, um, to use a startup founder and, you know, are built last t to Amazon. >>Yeah. Great. Great thesis. Jerry has always been great. You've been with the Cube since the beginning on our first reinvented 2013. Um, and so we're now on our eighth year. Great to see your success. Great investment. You make your world class investor to great firm Greylock. Um great to have you on from your perspective. Final take on this year. What's your view of Jackie's keynote? Just in general, What's the vibe. What's the quick, um, soundbite >>from you? First, I'm so impressed and you can do you feel like a three Archy? No more or less by himself. Right then, that is, that is, um, that's a one man show, and I'm All of that is I don't think I could pull that off. Number one. Number two It's, um, the ability to for for Amazon to execute at so many different levels of stack from semiconductors. Right there, there there ai chips to high level services around healthcare solutions and legit solutions. It's amazing. So I would say both. I'm impressed by Amazon's ability. Thio go so broad up and down the stack. But also, I think the theme from From From Andy Jassy is like It's just acceleration. It's, you know now that we will have things unique to the cloud, and that could be just a I chips unique to the cloud or the services that are cloud only you're going to see a tipping point. We saw acceleration in the past 15 years, John. He called like this cloud transition. But you know, I think you know, we're talking about 2021 beyond you'll see a tipping point where now you can only get certain things in the cloud. Right? And that could be the underlying inference. Instances are training instances, the Amazons giving. So all of a sudden you as a founder or developer, says, Look, I guess so much more in the cloud there's there's no reason for me to do this hybrid thing. You know, Khyber is not gonna go away on Prem is not going away. But for sure. We're going to see, uh, increasing celebration off cloud only services. Um, our edge only services or things. They're only on functions that serve like serverless. That'll be defined the next 10 years of compute. And so that for you and I was gonna be a space and watch >>Jerry Chen always pleasure. Great insight. Great to have you on the Cube again. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Congrats to you guys in the Cube. Seven years growing. It's amazing to see all the content put on. So you think it isn't? Just Last point is you see the growth of the curve growth curves of the cloud. I'd be curious Johnson, The growth curve of the cube content You know, I would say you guys are also going exponential as well. So super impressed with what you guys have dealt. Congratulations. >>Thank you so much. Cute. Virtual. We've been virtualized. Virtualization is coming here, or Cubans were not in person this year because of the pandemic. But we'll be hybrid soon as events come back. I'm John for a year. Host for AWS reinvent coverage with the Cube. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for more coverage all day. Next three weeks. Stay with us from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of aws reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel >>and AWS. Welcome back here to our coverage here on the Cube of AWS.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stew Minimum and the host of Cloud Native Insights. And the threat that we've been pulling on with Cloud Native is that we needed to be able to take advantage of the innovation and agility that cloud in the ecosystem around it can bring, not just the location. It's It's not just the journey, but how do I take advantage of something today and keep being able to move for Happy to welcome back to the program one of our regulars and someone that I've had lots of discussion about? Cloud Cloud. Native Serverless So Cory Quinn, the Keith Cloud economists at the Duck Bill Group. Corey, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. >>It is great to see me. And I always love having the opportunity to share my terrible opinions with people who then find themselves tarred by the mere association. And there's certainly no exception to use, too. Thanks for having me back. Although I question your judgment. >>Yeah, you know, what was that? Pandora's box. I open when I was like Hey, Corey, let's try you on video so much. And if people go out, they can look at your feet and you've spent lots of money on equipment. You have a nice looking set up. I guess you missed that one window of opportunity to get your hair cut in San Francisco during the pandemic. But be doesn't may Corey, why don't you give our audience just the update You went from a solo or mentor of the cloud? First you have a partner and a few other people, and you're now you've got economists. >>Yes, it comes down to separating out. What I'm doing with my nonsense from other people's other people's careers might very well be impacted by it considered tweet of mine. When you start having other clouds, economists and realize, okay, this is no longer just me we're talking about here. It forces a few changes. I was told one day that I would not be the chief economist. I smile drug put on a backlog item to order a new business cards because it's not like we're going to a lot of events these days, and from my perspective, things continue mostly a base. The back. To pretend people now means that there's things that my company does that I'm no longer directly involved with, which is a relief, that absolutely, ever. But it's been an interesting right. It's always strange. Is the number one thing that people who start businesses say is that if they knew what they were getting into, they'd never do it again. I'm starting to understand that. >>Yeah, well, Corey, as I mentioned you, and I have had lots of discussions about Cloud about multi Cloud server. Listen, like when you wrote an article talking about multi cloud is a worse practice. One of the things underneath is when I'm using cloud. I should really be able to leverage that cloud. One of the concerns that when you and I did a cube con and cloud native con is does multi cloud become a least common denominator? And a comment that I heard you say was if I'm just using cloud and the very basic services of it, you know, why don't I go to an AWS or an azure which have hundreds of services? Maybe I could just find something that is, you know, less expensive because I'm basically thinking of it as my server somewhere else. Which, of course, cloud is much more than so you do with a lot of very large companies that help them with their bills. What difference there differentiates the companies that get advantage from the cloud versus those that just kind of fit in another location, >>largely the stories that they tell themselves internally and how they wind up adapting to cloud. If the reason I got into my whole feel about why multi cloud is a worst practice is that of you best practices a sensible defaults, I view multi cloud as a ridiculous default. Sure, there are cases where it's important, and so I don't say I'm not suggesting for a second that those people who are deciding to go down that are necessarily making wrong decisions. But when you're building something from scratch with this idea toward taking a single workload and deploying it anywhere in almost every case, it's the wrong decision. Yes, there are going to be some workloads that are better suited. Other places. If we're talking about SAS, including that in the giant wrapper of cloud definition in terms of what was then, sure you would be nuts to wind of running on AWS and then decide you're also going to go with codecommit instead of git Hub. That's not something sensible people to use get up or got sick. But when I am suggesting, is that the idea of building absolutely every piece of infrastructure in a way that avoids any of the differentiated offerings that your primary cloud provider uses is just generally not a great occasionally you need to. But that's not the common case, and people are believing that it is >>well, and I'd like to dig a little deeper. Some of those differentiated services out there there are concerned, but some that said, You know, I think back to the past model. I want to build something. I can have it live ever anywhere. But those differentiated services are something that I should be able to get value out of it. So do you have any examples, or are there certain services that you have his favorites that you've seen customers use? And they say, Wow, it's it's something that is effective. It's something that is affordable, and I can get great value out of this because I didn't have to build it. And all of these hyper scaler have lots of engineers built, building lots of cool things. And I want to take advantage of that innovation. >>Sure, that's most of them. If we're being perfectly honest, there are remarkably few services that have no valid use cases for no customer anywhere. A lot of these solve an awful lot of pain that customers have. Dynamodb is a good example of this Is that one a lot of folks can relate to. It's super fast, charges you for what you use, and that is generally yet or a provision Great. But you don't have to worry about instances. You have to worry about scaling up or scaling down in the traditional sense. And that's great. The problem is, is great. How do I migrate off of this on to something else? Well, that's a good question. And if that is something that you need to at least have a theoretical exodus for, maybe Dynamo DV is the wrong service for you to pick your data store personally. If I have to build for a migration in mind on no sequel basis, I'll pick mongo DB every time, not because it's any easier to move it, but because it's so good at losing data, that'll have remarkably little bit left. Migrate. >>Yeah, Corey, of course. One of the things that you help customers with quite a bit is on the financial side of it. And one of the challenges if I moved from my environment and I move to the public cloud, is how do I take advantage not only of the capability to the cloud but the finances of the cloud. I've talked to many customers that when you modernize your pull things apart, maybe you start leveraging serverless capabilities. And if I tune things properly, I can have a much more affordable solution versus that. I just took my stuff and just shoved it all in the cloud kind of a traditional lift and shift. I might not have good economics. When I get to the cloud. What do you see along those lines? >>I'd say you're absolutely right with that assessment. If you are looking at hitting break even on your cloud migration in anything less than five years, it's probably wrong. The reason to go to Cloud is not to save money. There are edge cases where it makes sense, Sure, but by and large you're going to wind up spending longer in the in between state that you would believe eventually you're going to give up and call it hybrid game over. And at some point, if you stall long enough, you'll find that the cloud talent starts reaching out of your company. At which point that Okay, great. Now we're stuck in this scenario because no one wants to come in and finish the job is harder than we thought we landed. But it becomes this story of not being able to forecast what the economics are going to look like in advanced, largely because people don't understand where their workloads start and stop what the failure modes look like and how that's going to manifest itself in a cloud provider environment. That's why lift and shift is popular. People hate, lift and ship. It's a terrible direction to go in. Yeah, so are all the directions you can go in as far as migrating, short of burning it to the ground for insurance money and starting over, you've gotta have a way to get from where you are, where you're going. Otherwise, migration to be super simple. People with five weeks of experience and a certification consult that problem. It's but how do you take what's existing migrated end without causing massive outages or cost of fronts? It's harder than it looks. >>Well, okay, I remember Corey a few years ago when I talk to customers that were using AWS. Ah, common complaint was we had to dedicate an engineer just to look at the finances of what's happening. One of the early episodes I did of Cloud Native Insights talked to a company that was embracing this term called Been Ops. We have the finance team and the engineering team, not just looking back at the last quarter, but planning understanding what the engineering impacts were going forward so that the developers, while they don't need tohave all the spreadsheets and everything else, they understand what they architect and what the impact will be on the finance side. What are you hearing from your customers out there? What guidance do you give from an organizational standpoint as to how they make sure that their bill doesn't get ridiculous? >>Well, the term fin ops is a bit of a red herring in there because people immediately equate it back to cloud ability before their app. Geo acquisitions where the fin ops foundation vendors are not allowed to join except us, and it became effectively a marketing exercise that was incredibly poorly executed in sort of poisoned the well. Now the finance foundations been handed off to the Cloud Native Beauty Foundation slash Lennox Foundation. Maybe that's going to be rehabilitated, but we'll have to find out. One argument I made for a while was that developers do not need to know what the economic model in the cloud is going to be. As a general rule, I would stand by that. Now someone at your company needs to be able to have those conversations of understanding the ins and outs of various costs models. At some point you hit a point of complexity we're bringing in. Experts solve specific problems because it makes sense. But every developer you have does not need to sit with 3 to 5 days course understanding the economics of the cloud. Most of what they need to know if it's on a business card, it's on an index card or something small that is carplay and consult business and other index ramos. But the point is, is great. Big things cost more than small things. You're not charged for what you use your charger for. What you forget to turn off and being able to predict your usage model in advance is important and save money. Data transfers Weird. There are a bunch of edge cases, little slice it and ribbons, but inbound data transfer is generally free. Outbound, generally Austin arm and a leg and architect accordingly. But by and large for most development product teams, it's built something and see if it works first. We can always come back later and optimize costs as you wind up maturing the product offering. >>Yeah, Cory, it's some of those sharp edges I've love learning about in your newsletter or some of your online activities there, such as you talked about those egress fees. I know you've got a nice diagram that helps explain if you do this, it costs a lot of money. If you do this, it's gonna cost you. It cost you a lot less money. Um, you know, even something like serverless is something that in general looks like. It should be relatively expensive, but if you do something wrong, it could all of a sudden cost you a lot of money. You feel that companies are having a better understanding so that they don't just one month say, Oh my God, the CFO called us up because it was a big mistake or, you know, where are we along that maturation of cloud being a little bit more predictable? >>Unfortunately, no. Where near I'd like us to be it. The story that I think gets missed is that when you're month over, month span is 20% higher. Finance has a bunch of questions, but if they were somehow 20% lower, they have those same questions. They're trying to build out predictive models that align. They're not saying you're spending too much money, although by the time the issues of the game, yeah, it's instead help us understand and predict what's happening now. Server less is a great story around that, because you can tie charges back to individual transactions and that's great. Except find me a company that's doing that where the resulting bill isn't hilariously inconsequential. A cloud guru Before they bought Lennox, I can't get on stage and talk about this. It serverless kind of every year, but how? They're spending $600 a month in Lambda, and they have now well, over 100 employees. Yeah, no one cares about that money. You can trace the flow of capital all you want, but it grounds up to No one cares at some point that changes. But there's usually going to be far bigger fish to front with their case, I would imagine, given, you know, stream video, they're probably gonna have some data transfer questions that come into play long before we talk about their compute. >>Yeah, um, what else? Cory, when you look at the innovation in the cloud, are there things that common patterns that you see that customers are missing? Some of the opportunities there? How does the customers that you talk to, you know, other than reading your newsletter, talking Teoh their systems integrator or partner? How are they doing it? Keeping up with just the massive amount of change that happens out >>there. Get customers. AWS employees follow the newsletter specifically to figure out what's going on. We've long since passed a Rubicon where I can talk incredibly convincingly about services that don't really exist. And Amazon employees won't call me out on the joke that I've worked in there because what the world could ever say that and then single. It's well beyond any one person's ability to keep it all in their head. So what? We're increasingly seeing even one provider, let alone the rest. Their events are outpacing them and no one is keeping up. And now there's the persistent, never growing worry that there's something that just came out that could absolutely change your business for the better. And you'll never know about it because you're too busy trying to keep up with all the other number. Every release the cloud provider does is important to someone but none of its important everyone. >>Yeah, Corey, that's such a good point. When you've been using tools where you understand a certain way of doing things, how do you know that there's not a much better way of doing it? So, yeah, I guess the question is, you know, there's so much out there. How do people make sure that they're not getting left behind or, you know, keep their their their understanding of what might be able to be used >>the right answer. There, frankly, is to pick a direction and go in it. You can wind up in analysis paralysis issues very easily. And if you talk about what you've done on the Internet, the number one responsible to get immediately is someone suggesting an alternate approach you could have taken on day one. There is no one path forward for any six, and you can second guess yourself that the problem is that you have to pick a direction and go in it. Make sure it makes sense. Make sure the lines talk to people who know what's going on in the space and validate it out. But you're going to come up with a plan right head in that direction, I assure you, you are probably not the only person doing it unless you're using. Route 53 is a database. >>You know, it's an interesting thing. Corey used to be said that the best time to start a project was a year ago. But you can't turn back time, so you should start it now. I've been saying for the last few years the best time to start something would be a year from now, so you can take advantage of the latest things, but you can't wait a year, so you need to start now. So how how do you make sure you maintain flexibility but can keep moving projects moving forward? E think you touched on that with some of the analysis paralysis, Anything else as to just how do you make sure you're actually making the right bets and not going down? Some, you know, odd tangent that ends up being a debt. >>In my experience, the biggest problem people have with getting there is that they don't stop first to figure out alright a year from now. If this project has succeeded or failed, how will we know they wind up building these things and keeping them in place forever, despite the fact that cost more money to run than they bring in? In many cases, it's figure out what success looks like. Figure out what failure looks like. And if it isn't working, cut it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up, went into this thing that you've got to support in perpetuity. One example of that one extreme is AWS. They famously never turn anything off. Google on the other spectrum turns things off as a core competence. Most folks wind up somewhere in the middle, but understand that right now between what? The day I start building this today and the time that this one's of working down the road. Well, great. There's a lot that needs to happen to make sure this is a viable business, and none of that is going to come down to, you know, build it on top of kubernetes. It's going to come down. Is its solving a problem for your customers? Are people they're people in to pay for the enhancement. Anytime you say yes to that project, you're saying no to a bunch of others. Opportunity Cost is a huge thing. >>Yeah, so it's such an important point, Cory. It's so fundamental when you look at what what cloud should enable is, I should be able to try more things. I should be able to fail fast on, and I shouldn't have to think about, you know, some cost nearly as much as I would in the past. We want to give you the final word as you look out in the cloud. Any you know, practices, guidelines, you can give practitioners out there as to make sure that they are taking advantage of the innovation that's available out there on being able to move their company just a little bit faster. >>Sure, by and large, for the practitioners out there, if you're rolling something out that you do not understand, that's usually a red flag. That's been my problem, to be blunt with kubernetes or an awful lot of the use cases that people effectively shove it into. What are you doing? What if the business problem you're trying to solve and you understand all of its different ways that it can fail in the ways that will help you succeed? In many cases, it is stupendous overkill for the scale of problem most people are throwing. It is not a multi cloud answer. It is not the way that everyone is going to be doing it or they'll make fun of you under resume. Remember, you just assume your own ego. In this sense, you need to deliver an outcome. You don't need to improve your own resume at the expense of your employer's business. One would hope, >>Well, Cory, always a pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for joining me on the cloud. Native insights. Thank you. Alright. Be sure to check out silicon angle dot com if you click on the cloud. There's a whole second for cloud Native insights on your host to minimum. And I look forward to hearing more from you and your cloud Native insights Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Online. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to the coverage of AWS Public Sector Summit virtual. I'm John for host of theCUBE. We're here in theCUBE studios, quarantine crew here talking to all the guests remotely as part of our virtual coverage of AWS Public Sector. So I've got a great guest here talking about data science, weather predictions, accurate climate modeling, really digging into how cloud is helping science. Dr. Chelle Gentemann, who is a senior scientist at Farallon Institute is my guest. Chelle, thank you for joining me. >> Thank you. >> So tell us a little about your research. It's fascinating how, I've always joked in a lot of my interviews, 10, 15, 20 years ago, you need super computers to do all these calculations. But now with cloud computing, it opens up so much more on the research side and the impact is significant. You're at an awesome Institute, the Farallon Institute, doing a lot of stuff in the sea and the ocean and a lot of your things. What's your focus? >> I study the ocean from space, and about 71% was covered by ocean. 40% of our population in the globe actually lives within 100 kilometers of the coast. The ocean influences our weather, it influences climate, but it also provides fisheries and recreational opportunities for people. So it's a really important part of the earth system. And I've been focused on using satellites. So from space, trying to understand how the ocean influences weather and climate >> And how new is this in terms of just state of the art? Fairly new, been around for a while? What's some of the progress for the state of the art we're involved in. >> I started working on satellite data in the 90s during school, and I liked the satellite data cause it's the interface of sort of applied math, computer science and physics. The state of the art is that we've really had remote sensing around for about 20, 30 years. But things are changing because right now we're having more sensors and different types of instruments up there and trying to combine that data is really challenging. To use it, our brain is really good in two and three dimensions, but once you get past that, it's really difficult for the human brain to try and interpret the data. And that's what scientists do. Is they try and take all these multidimensional data sets and try to build some understanding of the physics of what's going on. And what's really interesting is how cloud computing is impacting that. >> It sounds so exciting. The confluence of multiple disciplines kind of all right there, kind of geek out big time. So I've got to ask you, in the past you had the public data set program. Are you involved in that? Do you take advantage that research? How is some of the things that AWS is doing help you and is that public data set part of it? >> It's a big part of it now. I've helped to deploy some of the ocean temperature data sets on the cloud. And the way that AWS public data sets as sort of has potential to transform science is the way that we've been doing science, the way that I was trained in science was that you would go and download the data. And most of these big institutions that do research, you start to create these dark repositories where the institutions or someone in your group has downloaded data sets. And then you're trying to do science with these data, but you're not sure if it's the most recent version. It makes it really hard to do reproducible science, because if you want to share your code, somebody also has to access that data and download it. And these are really big data sets. So downloading it could take quite a long time. It's not very transparent, it's not very open. So when you move to a public data set program like AWS, you just take all of that download out of the equation. And instantly when I share my code now, people can run the code and just build on it and go right from there, or they can add to it or suggest changes. That's a really big advantage for trying to do open science. >> I had a dinner with Teresa Carlson who is awesome. She runs the Public Sector Summit for AWS. And I remember this was years ago and we were dreaming about a future where we would have national parks in the cloud or this concept of a Yosemite-like beautiful treasure. Physical place you could go there. And we were kind of dreaming that, wouldn't it be great to have like these data sets or supercomputer public commons. It sounds like that's kind of the vibe here where it's shareable and it's almost like a digital national park or something. Is that it's a shared resource. Is that kind of happening? First of all, what do you react to that? And what's your thoughts around that dream? And does this kind of tie to that? >> Yeah, I think it ties directly to that. When I think about how science is still being done and has been done for the past sort of 20 years, we had a real change about 20 years ago when a lot of the government agencies started requiring their data to be public. And that was a big change. So then we got, we actually had public data sets to work with. So more people started getting involved in science. Now I see it as sort of this fortress of data that in some ways have prevented scientists from really moving rapidly forward. But with moving onto the cloud and bringing your ideas and your compute to the data set, it opens up this entire Pandora's box, this beautiful world of how you can do science. You're no longer restricted to what you have downloaded or what you're able to do because you have this unlimited compute. You don't have to be at a big institution with massive supercomputers. I've been running hundreds of workers analyzing in my realm. Over two or 300 gigabytes of data on a $36 Raspberry Pi that I was playing around with my kids. That's transformative. That allows anyone to access data. >> And if you think about what it would have to do to do that in the old days, stack and spike servers. Call, first of all, you'll get the cash, buy servers, rack them and stack them, connect to a download of nightmare. So I got to ask you now with all this capability, first of all, you're talking to someone who loves the cloud. So I'm pretty biased. What are you doing now with the cloud that you couldn't do before? So certainly the old way from a provisioning standpoint, check, done. Innovation, bars raised. Now you're creative, you're looking at solutions, you're building enabling device like a Raspberry Pi, almost like a switch or an initiation point. How has the creativity changed? What can you do now? What are some of the things that are possible that you're doing? >> I think that you can point to within some of the data sets that have already gone on the cloud are being used in these really new, different ways. Again, it points to this, when you don't have access to the data, just simply because you have to download it. So that downloading the data and figuring out how to use it and figuring out how to store it is a big barrier for people. But when things like the HF Radar data set went online. Within a couple of months, there was a paper where people were using it to monitor bird migration in ways that they'd never been able to do before, because they simply hadn't been able to get the data. There's other research being done, where they've put whale recordings on the cloud and they're using AI to actually identify different whales. It's using one data set, but it's also the ability to combine all these different data sets and have access to them at the same time and not be limited by your computer anymore. Which for a lot of science, we've been limited by our access to compute. And that when you take away that, it opens all these new doors into doing different types of research with new types of data, >> You could probably correlate the whale sounds with the temperature and probably say, hey, it's cold. >> Chelle: Exactly. >> I'm making that up. But that's the kind of thing that wouldn't be possible before because you'd have to get the data set, do some math. I mean, this is cool stuff with the ocean. I mean, can you just take a minute to share some, give people an insight in some of the cool projects that are being either thought up or dreamed up or initiated or done or in process or in flight, because actually there's so much data in the ocean. So much things to do, it's very dynamic. There's a lot of data obviously. Share, for the folks that might not have a knowledge of what goes on. What are you guys thinking about? >> A lot of what we're thinking about is how to have societal impact. So as a scientist, you want your work to be relevant. And one of the things that we found is that the ocean really impacts weather at scales that we simply can't measure right now. So we're really trying to push forward with space instrumentation so that we can monitor the ocean in new ways at new resolutions. And the reason that we want to do that is because the ocean impacts longterm predictability in the weather forecast. So a lot of weather forecasts now, if you look out, you can go on to Weather Underground or whatever weather site you want. And you'll see the forecast goes out 10 days and that's because there's not a lot of accuracy after that. So a lot of research is going into how do we extend into seasonal forecast? I'm from Santa Rosa, California. We've been massively impacted by wildfires. And being able to understand how to prepare for the coming season is incredibly important. And surprisingly, I think to a lot of people, the ocean plays a big role in that. The ocean can impact how much storm systems, how they grow, how they evolve, how much water they actually got. Moisture they pick up from the ocean and then transport over land. So if you want to talk about, it's really interesting to talk about how the ocean impacts our weather and our seasonal weather. So that's an area where people are doing a lot of research. And again, you're talking about different data sets and being able to work together in a collaborative environment on the cloud is really what's starting to transform how people are working together, how they're communicating and how they're sharing their science. >> I just hope it opens up someone's possibilities. I want to get your vision of what you think the breakthroughs might be possible with cloud for research and computing. Because you have kind of old school and new school. Amazon CEO, Andy Jassy calls it old guard, new guard. The new guard is really more looking for self provisioning, auto-scaling, all that. Super computer on demand, all that stuff at your fingertips. Great, love that. But is there any opportunity for institutional change within the scientific community? What's your vision around the impact? It's not just scientific. It also can go to government for societal impact. So you start to see this modernization trend. What's your vision on the impact of the scientific community with cloud? >> I think that the way the scientific community has been organized for a long time is that scientists that are at an institute. And a lot of the research has been siloed. And it's siloed in part because of the way the funding mechanism works. But that inhibits creativity and inhibits collaboration. And it inhibits the advancement of science. Because if you hold onto data, you hold on to code. You're not allowing other people to work on it and to build on what you do. The traditional way that scientists have moved forward is you make a discovery, you write up a paper, you describe it in a journal article, and then you publish that. Then if someone wants to build on your research, they get your journal article, they read it. Then they try to understand what you did. They maybe recode all of your analysis. So they're redoing the work that you did, which is simply not efficient. Then they have to download the data sets that you access. This slows down all of science. And it also inhibits bringing in new data sets again because you don't have access to them. So one of the things I'm really excited about with cloud computing is that by bringing our scientific ideas and our compute to the data, it allows us to break out of these silos and collaborate with people outside of our institution, outside of our country, and bring new ideas and new voices and elevate everyone's ideas to another level. >> It brings the talent and the ideas together. And now you have digital and virtual worlds, cause we've been virtualized with COVID-19. You can create content as a community building capability or your work can create a network effect with other peers. And is a flash mobbing effect of potential collaboration. So work, work forces, workplaces, work loads, work flows, kind of are interesting or kind of being changed in real time. You were just talking about speed, agility. These are technical concepts being applied to kind of real world scenarios. I mean your thoughts on that. >> I now work with people like right now, I'm working with students in Denmark, Oman, India, France, and the US. That just wasn't possible 10 years ago. And we're able to bring all these different voices together, which it really frees up science and it frees up who can participate in science, which is really fun. I mean, I'm a scientist. I do it because it's really, really fun. And I love working with other people. So this new ability that I've gained in the last couple of years by moving onto the cloud has really accelerated all the different types of collaborations I'm involved with. And hopefully accelerating science as a whole. >> I love this topic. It's one of my passion areas where it's an issue I've been scratching for over a decade too. Is that content and your work is an enabler for community engagement because you don't need to publish it to a journal. It's like waterfall mentality. It's like you do it. But if you can publish something or create something and show it, demo it or illustrate it, that's better than a paper. If you're on video, you can talk about it. It's going to attract other people, like-minded peers can come together. That's going to create more collaboration data. That's going to create more solidarity around topics and accelerate the breakthroughs. >> For our last paper, we actually published all the software with it. We got a digital firewall for the software, published the software and then containerized it so that when you read our paper, at the bottom of the paper, you get a link. You go to that link, you click on a button and you're instantly in our compute environment, you can reproduce all of our results. Do the error propagation analysis that we did. And then if you don't like something, go ahead and change it or add onto it or ask us some questions. That's just magical. >> Yeah, it really is. And Amazon has been a real investor and I got to give props to Teresa Carlson and her team and Andy Jassy, the CEO, because they've been investing in credits and collaborating with groups like Jet Propulsion Lab, you guys, everyone else. Just space has been a big part of that. I see Bezos love space. So they've been investing in that and bringing that resource to the table. So you've got to give Amazon some props for that. But great work that you're doing. I'm fascinated. I think it's one of those examples where it's a moonshot, but it's doable. It's like you can get there. >> Yeah, and it's just so exciting. I'm the lead on a proposal for a new science mission to NASA. And we are going all in with the cloud computing. So we're going to do all the processing on the cloud. We want to do the entire science team on the cloud and create a science data platform where we're all working together. That's just never happened before. And I think that by doing this, we multiply the benefits of all of our analysis. We make it faster and we make it better and we make it more collaborative. So everyone wins. >> Sure, you're an inspiration to many. I'm so excited to do this interview with you. I love what you said earlier at the beginning about your focus of being in computer science, physics, space. That confluence is multiple disciplines. Not everyone can have that. Some people just get a computer science degree. Some people get, I'm premed, or I'm going to do biology. I'm going to do this. This notion of multiple disciplines coming together is really what society needs now. Is we're converging or virtualizing or becoming a global society. And that brings up my final question. Is something I know that you're passionate about creating a more inclusive scientific community because you don't have to be the, just the computer science major. Now, if you have all three, it's a multi-tool when you're a multiple skill player. But you don't have to be something to get into this new world. Because if you have certain disciplines, whether it's math, maybe you don't have computer science but it's quick to learn. There's frameworks out there, no code, low code. So cloud computing supports this. What's your vision and what's your opinion of how more inclusivity can come into the scientific community? >> I think that, when you're at an institution or at a commercial company or a nonprofit, if you're at some sort of organized institution, you have access to things that not everyone has access to. And in a lot of the world, there's trouble with internet connectivity. There is trouble downloading data. They simply don't have the ability to download large data sets. So I'm passionate about inclusivity because I think that, until we include global voices in science, we're not going to see these global results that we need to. We need to be more interdisciplinary. And that means working with different scientists in different fields. And if we can all work together on the same platform that really helps explode interdisciplinary science and what can be done. A lot of science has been quite siloed because you work at an institution. So you talked to the people one door down, or two doors down or on the same floor. But when you start working in this international community and people don't have to be online all the time, they can write code and then just jump on and upload it. You don't need to have these big, powerful resources or institutions behind you. And that gives a platform for all types of scientists, that all types of levels to start working with everyone. >> This is why I love the idea of the content and the community being horizontally scalable. Because if you're stuck around a physical institution or space, you kind of like have group think, or maybe you have the same kind of ideas being talked about. But here, when you pull back the remote work with COVID-19, as an example, it highlights it. The remote scientist could be anywhere. So that's going to increase access. What can we do to accept those voices? Is there a way or an idea or formula you see that people could, assuming there's access, which I would say, yes. What do we do? What do you do? >> I think you have to be open and you have to listen. Because, if I ask a question into the room where my colleagues work, we're going to come up with an answer. But we're going to come up with an answer that's informed by how we were trained in science and what fields we know. So when you open up this box and you allow other voices to participate in science, you're going to get new and different answers. And as a scientist, you need to be open to allowing those voices to be heard and to acting on them and including them in your research results and thinking about how they may change what you think and bring you to new conclusions. >> Machine learning has been a part. I know your work in the past, obviously cloud you're a big fan, obviously can tell. Proponent of it. Machine learning and AI can be a big part of this too, both on not only sourcing new voices and identifying what's contextually relevant at any given time, but also on the science-side machine learning. Because if we can take a minute to give your thoughts on the and relevance of machine learning and AI, because you still got the humans and you got machines augmenting each other, that relationship is going to be a constant conversation point going forward. Is there data about the data and what's the machines doing? What's your thoughts on all of these? Machine learning and AI as an impact. >> It's funny you say impact. So I work with this NASA IMPACT project, which is this interdisciplinary team that tries to advance science, and it's really into machine learning and AI. One of the difficulties when you start to do science is you have an idea like, okay, I want to study tropical storms. And then you have to go and wade through all these different types of data to identify when events happened and then gather all the data from those different events and start to try and do some analysis. They're working and they've been really successful in using AI to actually do this sort of event identification. So what's interesting and how can we use AI and machine learning to identify those interesting events and gathering everything together for scientists to then try and bring for analysis? So AI is being used in a lot of different ways in science. It's being used to look at these multi-dimensional problems that are just a little bit too big for our brains to try and understand. But if we can use AI and machine learning to gather insights into certain aspects of them, it starts to lead to new conclusions and it starts to allow us to see new connections. AI and machine learning has this potential to transform how we do science. Cloud computing is part of that because we have access to so much more data now. >> It's a real enabling technology. And when you have enabling technology, the power is in the hands of the creative minds. And it's really what you can think up and what you can dream up and that's going to come from people. Phenomenal. Final question for you, to kind of end on a light note. Dr. Chelle Gentemann here, senior scientist at the Farallon Institute. You're doing a lot of work on the ocean, space, ocean interaction. What's the coolest thing you're working on right now? Or you you've worked on that you think would be worth sharing. >> There's a couple of things. I have to think about what's the most fun. Right now, I'm working on doing some analysis with data. We had a big, huge international field campaign this winter off of Barbados, there were research festival, rustles and aircraft. There were sail drones involved, which are these autonomous robotic vehicles that go along the ocean surface and measure air-sea interactions. Right now we're working on analyzing that data. So we have all of this ground truth data. We're bringing in all the satellite observations to see how we can better understand the earth system in that region with a specific focus on air-sea interactions over the ocean where when it rains, you get the salinity stratification. When there's strong solar, you get diurnal stratification. So you have upper ocean stratification and heat and salinity. And how those impact the fluxes and how the ocean impacts the heat and moisture transport into the atmosphere, which then affects weather. So again, this is this multidimensional data set with all these different types of both ground truth data, satellite data that we're trying to bring together and it's really exciting. >> It could shape policy, it could shape society. Maybe have a real input into global warming. Our behaviors in the world, sounds awesome. Plus, I love the ground truth and the observational data. It sounds like our media business algorithm, we got to get the observation, get the truth, report it. Sounds like there's something in there that we could learn from. (both giggling) >> Yeah, it's very interesting cause you often find what you see from a distance is not quite true up close. >> I can tell you that we as in media as we do a lot of investigative journalism. So we appreciate that. Dr. Chelle Gentemann, senior scientist at the Farallon Institute, here as part of AWS Public Sector Summit. Thank you so much for time. What a great story. We'll keep in touch. Love the sails drone. Great innovation. And continue the good work, I'm looking forward to checking in later. Thanks for joining. >> Thanks so much. It was nice talking to you. >> I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here in our studios covering the Amazon Web Services Public Sector Summit virtual. This is theCUBE virtual bringing you all the coverage with Amazon and theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back. Everyone's Cube Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS. Reinforce Amazon Web sources. First inaugural conference around security. It's not Osama. It's a branded event. Big time ecosystem developing. We have returning here. Cube Alumni Bill Jeff for VP of strategy and the partnerships that Iron Net Cyber Security Company. Welcome back. Thanks. General Keith Alexander, who was on a week and 1/2 ago. And it was public sector summit. Good to see you. Good >> to see you. Thanks for >> having my back, but I want to get into some of the Iran cyber communities. We had General Qi 1000. He was the original commander of the division. So important discussions that have around that. But don't get your take on the event. You guys, you're building a business. The minute cyber involved in public sector. This is commercial private partnership. Public relations coming together. Yeah. Your models are sharing so bringing public and private together important. >> Now that's exactly right. And it's really great to be here with eight of us were really close partner of AWS is we'll work with them our entire back in today. Runs on AWS really need opportunity. Get into the ecosystem, meet some of the folks that are working that we might work with my partner but to deliver a great product, right? And you're seeing a lot of people move to cloud, right? And so you know some of the big announcement that are happening here today. We're willing. We're looking to partner up with eight of us and be a first time provider for some key new Proactiv elves. AWS is launching in their own platform here today. So that's a really neat thing for us to be partnered up with this thing. Awesome organization. I'm doing some of >> the focus areas around reinforcing your party with Amazon shares for specifics. >> Yes. So I don't know whether they announced this capability where they're doing the announcement yesterday or today. So I forget which one so I'll leave that leave that leave that once pursued peace out. But the main thing is, they're announcing couple of new technology plays way our launch party with them on the civility place. So we're gonna be able to do what we were only wanted to do on Prem. We're gonna be able to do in the cloud with AWS in the cloud formation so that we'll deliver the same kind of guy that would deliver on prime customers inside their own cloud environments and their hybrid environment. So it's a it's a it's a sea change for us. The company, a sea change for a is delivering that new capability to their customers and really be able to defend a cloud network the way you would nonpregnant game changer >> described that value, if you would. >> Well, so you know, one of the key things about about a non pregnant where you could do you could look at all the flows coming past you. You look at all the data, look at in real time and develop behavior. Lana looks over. That's what we're doing our own prime customers today in the cloud with his world who looked a lox, right? And now, with the weight of your capability, we're gonna be able to integrate that and do a lot Maur the way we would in a in a in a normal sort of on Prem environment. So you really did love that. Really? Capability of scale >> Wagon is always killed. The predictive analytics, our visibility and what you could do. And too late. Exactly. Right. You guys solve that with this. What are some of the challenges that you see in cloud security that are different than on premise? Because that's the sea, So conversation we've been hearing. Sure, I know on premise. I didn't do it on premises for awhile. What's the difference between the challenge sets, the challenges and the opportunities they provide? >> Well, the opportunities air really neat, right? Because you've got that even they have a shared responsibility model, which is a little different than you officially have it. When it's on Prem, it's all yours essential. You own that responsibility and it is what it is in the cloud. Its share responsible to cloud provider the data holder. Right? But what's really cool about the cloud is you could deliver some really interesting Is that scale you do patch updates simultaneously, all your all your back end all your clients systems, even if depending how your provisioning cloud service is, you could deliver that update in real time. You have to worry about. I got to go to individual systems and update them, and some are updated. Summer passed. Some aren't right. Your servers are packed simultaneously. You take him down, you're bringing back up and they're ready to go, right? That's a really capability that for a sigh. So you're delivering this thing at scale. It's awesome now, So the challenge is right. It's a new environment so that you haven't dealt with before. A lot of times you feel the hybrid environment governed both an on Prem in sanitation and class sensation. Those have to talkto one another, right? And you might think about Well, how do I secure those those connections right now? And I think about spending money over here when I got all seduced to spend up here in the cloud. And that's gonna be a hard thing precisely to figure out, too. And so there are some challenges, but the great thing is, you got a whole ecosystem. Providers were one of them here in the AWS ecosystem. There are a lot here today, and you've got eight of us as a part of self who wants to make sure that they're super secure, but so are yours. Because if you have a problem in their cloud, that's a challenge. Them to market this other people. You talk about >> your story because your way interviews A couple weeks ago, you made a comment. I'm a recovering lawyer, kind of. You know, we all laughed, but you really start out in law, right? >> How did you end up here? Yeah, well, the truth is, I grew up sort of a technology or myself. My first computer is a trash 80 a trs 80 color computer. RadioShack four k of RAM on board, right. We only >> a true TRS 80. Only when I know what you're saying. That >> it was a beautiful system, right? Way stored with sword programs on cassette tapes. Right? And when we operated from four Keita 16 k way were the talk of the Rainbow Computer Club in Santa Monica, California Game changer. It was a game here for 16. Warning in with 60 give onboard. Ram. I mean, this is this is what you gonna do. And so you know, I went from that and I in >> trouble or something, you got to go to law school like you're right >> I mean, you know, look, I mean, you know it. So my dad, that was a chemist, right? So he loved computers, love science. But he also had an unrequited political boners body. He grew up in East Africa, Tanzania. It was always thought that he might be a minister in government. The Socialist came to power. They they had to leave you at the end of the day. And he came to the states and doing chemistry, which is course studies. But he still loved politics. So he raised at NPR. So when I went to college, I studied political science. But I paid my way through college doing computer support, life sciences department at the last moment. And I ran 10 based. He came on climate through ceilings and pulled network cable do punch down blocks, a little bit of fibrous placing. So, you know, I was still a murderer >> writing software in the scythe. >> One major, major air. And that was when when the web first came out and we had links. Don't you remember? That was a text based browser, right? And I remember looking to see him like this is terrible. Who would use http slash I'm going back to go for gophers. Awesome. Well, turns out I was totally wrong about Mosaic and Netscape. After that, it was It was it was all hands on >> deck. You got a great career. Been involved a lot in the confluence of policy politics and tech, which is actually perfect skill set for the challenge we're dealing. So I gotta ask you, what are some of the most important conversations that should be on the table right now? Because there's been a lot of conversations going on around from this technology. I has been around for many decades. This has been a policy problem. It's been a societal problem. But now this really focus on acute focus on a lot of key things. What are some of the most important things that you think should be on the table for techies? For policymakers, for business people, for lawmakers? >> One. I think we've got to figure out how to get really technology knowledge into the hands of policymakers. Right. You see, you watch the Facebook hearings on Capitol Hill. I mean, it was a joke. It was concerning right? I mean, anybody with a technology background to be concerned about what they saw there, and it's not the lawmakers fault. I mean, you know, we've got to empower them with that. And so we got to take technologist, threw it out, how to get them to talk policy and get them up on the hill and in the administration talking to folks, right? And one of the big outcomes, I think, has to come out of that conversation. What do we do about national level cybersecurity, Right, because we assume today that it's the rule. The private sector provides cyber security for their own companies, but in no other circumstance to expect that when it's a nation state attacker, wait. We don't expect Target or Wal Mart or any other company. J. P. Morgan have surface to air missiles on the roofs of their warehouses or their buildings to Vegas Russian bear bombers. Why, that's the job of the government. But when it comes to cyberspace, we expect Private Cummings defending us everything from a script kiddie in his basement to the criminal hacker in Eastern Europe to the nation state, whether Russia, China, Iran or North Korea and these nation states have virtually a limited resource. Your armies did >> sophisticated RND technology, and it's powerful exactly like a nuclear weaponry kind of impact for digital. >> Exactly. And how can we expect prices comes to defend themselves? It's not. It's not a fair fight. And so the government has to have some role. The questions? What role? How did that consist with our values, our principles, right? And how do we ensure that the Internet remains free and open, while still is sure that the president is not is not hampered in doing its job out there. And I love this top way talk about >> a lot, sometimes the future of warfare. Yeah, and that's really what we're talking about. You go back to Stuxnet, which opened Pandora's box 2016 election hack where you had, you know, the Russians trying to control the mean control, the narrative. As you pointed out, that that one video we did control the belief system you control population without firing a shot. 20 twenties gonna be really interesting. And now you see the U. S. Retaliate to Iran in cyberspace, right? Allegedly. And I was saying that we had a conversation with Robert Gates a couple years ago and I asked him. I said, Should we be Maur taking more of an offensive posture? And he said, Well, we have more to lose than the other guys Glasshouse problem? Yeah, What are your thoughts on? >> Look, certainly we rely intimately, inherently on the cyber infrastructure that that sort of is at the core of our economy at the core of the world economy. Increasingly, today, that being said, because it's so important to us all the more reason why we can't let attacks go Unresponded to write. And so if you're being attacked in cyberspace, you have to respond at some level because if you don't, you'll just keep getting punched. It's like the kid on the playground, right? If the bully keeps punching him and nobody does anything, not not the not the school administration, not the kid himself. Well, then the boy's gonna keep doing what he's doing. And so it's not surprising that were being tested by Iran by North Korea, by Russia by China, and they're getting more more aggressive because when we don't punch back, that's gonna happen. Now we don't have to punch back in cyberspace, right? A common sort of fetish about Cyrus is a >> response to the issue is gonna respond to the bully in this case, your eggs. Exactly. Playground Exactly. We'll talk about the Iran. >> So So if I If I if I can't Yeah, the response could be Hey, we could do this. Let them know you could Yes. And it's a your move >> ate well, And this is the key is that it's not just responding, right. So Bob Gates or told you we can't we talk about what we're doing. And even in the latest series of alleged responses to Iran, the reason we keep saying alleged is the U. S has not publicly acknowledged it, but the word has gotten out. Well, of course, it's not a particularly effective deterrence if you do something, but nobody knows you did it right. You gotta let it out that you did it. And frankly, you gotta own it and say, Hey, look, that guy punch me, I punch it back in the teeth. So you better not come after me, right? We don't do that in part because these cables grew up in the intelligence community at N S. A and the like, and we're very sensitive about that But the truth is, you have to know about your highest and capabilities. You could talk about your abilities. You could say, Here are my red lines. If you cross him, I'm gonna punch you back. If you do that, then by the way, you've gotta punch back. They'll let red lines be crossed and then not respond. And then you're gonna talk about some level of capabilities. It can't all be secret. Can't all be classified. Where >> are we in this debate? Me first. Well, you're referring to the Thursday online attack against the intelligence Iranian intelligence community for the tanker and the drone strike that they got together. Drone take down for an arm in our surveillance drones. >> But where are we >> in this debate of having this conversation where the government should protect and serve its people? And that's the role. Because if a army rolled in fiscal army dropped on the shores of Manhattan, I don't think Citibank would be sending their people out the fight. Right? Right. So, like, this is really happening. >> Where are we >> on this? Like, is it just sitting there on the >> table? What's happening? What's amazing about it? Hi. This was getting it going well, that that's a Q. What's been amazing? It's been happening since 2012 2011 right? We know about the Las Vegas Sands attack right by Iran. We know about North Korea's. We know about all these. They're going on here in the United States against private sector companies, not against the government. And there's largely been no response. Now we've seen Congress get more active. Congress just last year passed to pass legislation that gave Cyber command the authority on the president's surgery defenses orders to take action against Russia, Iran, North Korea and China. If certain cyber has happened, that's a good thing, right to give it. I'll be giving the clear authority right, and it appears the president willing to make some steps in that direction, So that's a positive step. Now, on the back end, though, you talk about what we do to harden ourselves, if that's gonna happen, right, and the government isn't ready today to defend the nation, even though the Constitution is about providing for the common defense, and we know that the part of defense for long. For a long time since Secretary Panetta has said that it is our mission to defend the nation, right? But we know they're not fully doing that. How do they empower private sector defense and one of keys That has got to be Look, if you're the intelligence community or the U. S. Government, you're Clinton. Tremendous sense of Dad about what you're seeing in foreign space about what the enemy is doing, what they're preparing for. You have got to share that in real time at machine speed with industry. And if you're not doing that and you're still count on industry to be the first line defense, well, then you're not empowered. That defense. And if you're on a pair of the defense, how do you spend them to defend themselves against the nation? State threats? That's a real cry. So >> much tighter public private relationship. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And it doesn't have to be the government stand in the front lines of the U. S. Internet is, though, is that you could even determine the boundaries of the U. S. Internet. Right? Nobody wants an essay or something out there doing that, but you do want is if you're gonna put the private sector in the in the line of first defense. We gotta empower that defense if you're not doing that than the government isn't doing its job. And so we gonna talk about this for a long time. I worked on that first piece of information sharing legislation with the House chairman, intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers and Dutch Ruppersberger from Maryland, right congressman from both sides of the aisle, working together to get a fresh your decision done that got done in 2015. But that's just a first step. The government's got to be willing to share classified information, scaled speed. We're still not seeing that. Yeah, How >> do people get involved? I mean, like, I'm not a political person. I'm a moderate in the middle. But >> how do I How do people get involved? How does the technology industry not not the >> policy budgets and the top that goes on the top tech companies, how to tech workers or people who love Tad and our patriots and or want freedom get involved? What's the best approach? >> Well, that's a great question. I think part of is learning how to talk policy. How do we get in front policymakers? Right. And we're I run. I run a think tank on the side at the National Institute at George Mason University's Anton Scalia Law School Way have a program funded by the Hewlett Foundation who were bringing in technologists about 25 of them. Actually. Our next our second event. This Siri's is gonna be in Chicago this weekend. We're trained these technologies, these air data scientists, engineers and, like talk Paul's right. These are people who said We want to be involved. We just don't know how to get involved And so we're training him up. That's a small program. There's a great program called Tech Congress, also funded by the U. A. Foundation that places technologists in policy positions in Congress. That's really cool. There's a lot of work going on, but those are small things, right. We need to do this, its scale. And so you know, what I would say is that their technology out there want to get involved, reach out to us, let us know well with our partners to help you get your information and dad about what's going on. Get your voice heard there. A lot of organizations to that wanna get technologies involved. That's another opportunity to get in. Get in the building is a >> story that we want to help tell on be involved in David. I feel passion about this. Is a date a problem? So there's some real tech goodness in there. Absolutely. People like to solve hard problems, right? I mean, we got a couple days of them. You've got a big heart problems. It's also for all the people out there who are Dev Ops Cloud people who like to work on solving heart problems. >> We got a lot >> of them. Let's do it. So what's going on? Iron? Give us the update Could plug for the company. Keith Alexander found a great guy great guests having on the Cube. That would give the quick thanks >> so much. So, you know, way have done two rounds of funding about 110,000,000. All in so excited. We have partners like Kleiner Perkins Forge point C five all supporting us. And now it's all about We just got a new co CEO in Bill Welshman. See Scaler and duo. So he grew Z scaler. $1,000,000,000 valuation he came in to do Oh, you know, they always had a great great exit. Also, we got him. We got Sean Foster in from from From Industry also. So Bill and Sean came together. We're now making this business move more rapidly. We're moving to the mid market. We're moving to a cloud platform or aggressively and so exciting times and iron it. We're coming toe big and small companies near you. We've got the capability. We're bringing advanced, persistent defense to bear on his heart problems that were threat analytics. I collected defence. That's the key to our operation. We're excited >> to doing it. I call N S A is a service, but that's not politically correct. But this is the Cube, so >> Well, look, if you're not, if you want to defensive scale, right, you want to do that. You know, ECE knows how to do that key down here at the forefront of that when he was in >> the government. Well, you guys are certainly on the cutting edge, riding that wave of common societal change technology impact for good, for defence, for just betterment, not make making a quick buck. Well, you know, look, it's a good business model by the way to be in that business. >> I mean, It's on our business cards. And John Xander means it. Our business. I'd say the Michigan T knows that he really means that, right? Rather private sector. We're looking to help companies to do the right thing and protect the nation, right? You know, I protect themselves >> better. Well, our missions to turn the lights on. Get those voices out there. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the lights. Keep covers here. Day one of two days of coverage. Eight of us reinforce here in Boston. Stay with us for more Day one after this short break.

[Music] everyone welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto California I'm John Fourier co-host of the cube were in the cube studios our next guest is Adam Weinstein who's the CEO of a company called cursor so introducing curse it's hot startup growing in the data analytics space doing something unique very innovative around changing the game on data data catalogs but more importantly how data is being used and consumed and also kind of revitalized so Adam welcome to the cube conversation thanks for joining us thanks for having me excited to be here so you guys are a young startup you're in a really good wave right now it's the cloud data the changing nature of data take him into explain what cursor does what's the company what's the focus how big you raise money start the update yeah yeah so I'll give you a quick background on me that sort of leads into that right so spent most of my career as an analyst I might say right so working with data living in data good the bad the ugly right and spent last couple years prior to this at LinkedIn working an analytics team there and one of the challenges we had as an organization was you know finding what was where and who worked on what so when you had literally a thousand people across the company of 10% of the business touching data on a daily basis one thing we struggled with was knowing you know who was working on what what was where what was accurate what was maybe outdated data was getting created it insane velocity was talking earlier little we were creating a trillion events a day inside the business and so you know as an analytics practitioner if you all it became increasingly difficult to get to a quick answer there was no search to go and say okay I want to look for this question as I've been asked before and if so where's the data so you know there was this new space called data cataloging at the time that seemed interesting with the cataloging was really only looking at how do we create like a yellow pages of data not necessarily how do you put it in the workflow of a person that's then taking that and acting on it and then you know feeding that insight that they may have created back into that sort of cataloging feel right so it's all an opportunity to create something new that really supported an analyst and really was you know mindful of how their day-to-day what job existed and you know that was that was cursor right what's the role of the analyst now because one of the things that's challenging the industry was this idea of and you just go back five years data science is the next big thing there are more open jobs in data science than there are people but then this also trend came on around humanizing data science and not requiring you to know hardcourt C++ or Python or having all this wrangling environments doing all this provisioning of stuff to get started to his idea of okay can we level up that and also can he make it easier almost like using Excel yeah I thought of the kind of the trend what's your thought on the current state of the data analyst role no I think that there is a lot of analytics work that maybe five years ago you know was being done and and there was no automation around it and in the next five years it'll get it wouldn't say automated away but I'll be at heavily automated away called 80% of the workload but that 20% use or 20% of data that it's really difficult to understand and may not be able to you know get an answer out of it automatically that that's not you know that needs people and someone that understands the business that's technical enough to go dive into the data and even though that may not be the hundred percent that existed before the amount of like effort that's needed to decipher it I think is is maybe even greater than it used to be because the rate of data getting created is so much greater to is the demand for more solutions how about cursor how big are you guys who's on the team what's the product is it SAS as a software sir give a quick overview now great so we're small or seven person team right now I started the company a little over a year and a half ago you know the idea was to get a solution to market that was lightweight enough that someone could come and download it and try it very quickly without having to go through a long enterprise sale cycle they could get something on their computer literally stand it up in five minutes start putting in a data and having it you know identify and help with their day-to-day job the team is is volunteering - me right so you know there's that we have folks from Salesforce where you know I came from a company called ExactTarget the tails for spot Pandora thumbtack were basically tried to bring people together that if all you know seen companies scale and data scale and and you know bring those insights alongside them so first generation data scale yet the classic you know web scale build it out on open source grow it have things break rebuild it yeah I mean we levered some open source I think you for us right now how do we get something that unique to market as quickly as possible right so there's things that we can use that that are out there that are that are available that are you know especially if they're you know standardized right we'll make use of them but other times well we've built quite a bit of stuff on our own and our solution lives you can't live in the cloud it can also live on premise and actually see a lot of customers deploy it in a hybrid manner so they may have this sort of collaboration layer live in the cloud but it's pointing at data that's both cloud-based and on-prem and even though that data may get migrated to the cloud over the next several years a lot of large enterprises are still so are you guys going to market by selling a product as freemium what's the and is it software they download on-premise is it SAS in the cloud you talk about the go to market and how people engage with the product no it's heavily SAS in the cloud right so I think sort of companies that are in a heavily regulated industry that really haven't yet figured out that cloud model you know our products SAS delivered there is a client that lives on the users local machine and the reason that exists is just for security purposes because data is still often behind the firewall so like you can ask your security guy hey poke a hole in the firewall for this company I've never heard of or you can have a tool that lives on the machine that sort of brokers that in a fall way you guys are flexible we're flexible right you don't necessarily need that right if you deploy it in your own infrastructure obviously there's there's no need to then have that client it can it can handle things so why curse or what are the market drivers for you guys what's driving your business yeah we saw this need errors I felt this needed very acutely LinkedIn which is you know with analysts are getting you know hundreds or thousands of questions as a team on a daily or weekly basis if they're within a large organization how do you address some meaningful portion of those with automation so if a questions been asked before and you've got you know great solutions like a tableau or a look or a thought spot or a power bi like you've got tons of reporting solutions around the business but there's no place to go and say hey where's the answer to this question which one of those is it in is it a Salesforce report is a tableau dashboard and and so you'd ask your friendly analysts who'd be happy to help but like that's taking them away from doing things that are new and so I I kind of became that switchboard unfortunately and so I saw an opportunity to create a solution that would sort of want to meet me and that's that's really obviously index all the questions kind of see what the frequency was the behavior you have the analytics kind of packaging it up in the catalog yeah and taking it a step further I think what are the topics how do you map topics and understand okay there's a fire in Aisle seven and that fire happens to be churn and it's q3 and why is fire on turn and how do we dig into the data behind turn and get some water they made an insight surround it and then you know but yes certainly the step one is being able to direct people on the right to the right place once you get beyond that doe to understanding what our company's data is and what the sort of you know size and shape and characteristics of it are you can actually take it a step further and you know really sort of recommend things which is what we want the alternatives I'm not having like a data catalog and a cursor is to go ask your resident analyst or hope that someone posted something on slack and then you search through slow I mean all kinds of I mean really not up not a viable no it's a hodgepodge of solutions right so one of the things we saw in this is interesting having been at LinkedIn is that you know more and more teams around organizations are hiring analyst talent they may not call it analyst I might call like a citizen data scientist they might call it a researcher they might even call it an engineer like a data engineer a lot of overlapping skills and what the real need is is like someone to be on that team that knows their data inside and out but yet can help answer like you said sort of the ad hoc question that comes up you know every day and and so for that like you know if they can use her sword answer 80% of those or you know as many as possible right we've got it's interesting I do see the same kind of knee-jerk reaction when LinkedIn and and other clients that have a similar profile where they have a lot of data I certainly see that when they get hired what's the kind of what's the marching orders go jump into the data and figure it out is there I mean because this is kind of an evolving new position that's growing very very fast what are they directed to do I mean what's this what's the job responsible it's a great question so I think one of the challenges is how do you onboard people when when there is no place to start right like it's okay here the hundred places we store data go figure it out with Lauren on your own we had built a little bit of a training and onboarding every college they really have start as a PowerPoint deck and then it expanded into some code and some additional training but you know there is no solution for that right I think our internally we had this notion that you know somewhere between three and six months the person was ramped enough to begin to be productive it was like how we how do you measure ROI on a person when you hire them right and that was LinkedIn where I think we were pretty you know we were out here we you know we have you know quite a few nerds right like I think we're pretty good at organizing things relatively speaking I can't imagine what that's like in productivity just write some Python code spit out some Angela is that good enough look yeah I guess then or sink-or-swim kind of mentality and then you know to get someone else in there yeah and the nuance of the data has gotten just because everyone's mindset is record everything right like it becomes harder and harder to actually get a quick answer so gonna give an example like you know looking at data do you know if something's you know test data if it's you know fake data if it's you know if there's something you need to be mindful of like in e-commerce how do you account for returns how do you account for you know fraud how do you account for things that you know if you look at the data and say I just want to add up all my orders and get some total amount of receipts like you would think oh that's my sales for the day but then you forget like there are all these things that if you don't know the data really well that you miss out on and so yeah multiply that by you know large corporates what's the phrasing needle in a stack of needles I'm trying to find it like everything in there so I mean data structures data cleanliness yep these are huge issues huge and you know we will address every single one of them many think we're courser wants to sit is in between a lot of best-of-breed solutions right so we're not building a new Hadoop we think we do a great job of storing data whether you want to call it a lake or you know something beyond a lake right like you know there are plenty of data stores in an organization to do a great job at storing data you know on the opposite end of the spectrum like in terms of visualizing data are actually generating you know insights they're a great bi solution to the market but in between those two sort of you know ends of the spectrum there's a lot of work that gets done and that's what we want to live Adam talked about the innovation and the tech behind cursor and then just you know innovation in general the way you see it and the team sees it because you're on the Front Range of a new trend bleeding edge cutting edge whatever you want to call it certainly you're pushing the envelope yeah yeah what's the core tech for cursor sir where's the innovation lie has it all tie together sure so we have a you know a couple different deployment models but our most common one is we have a you know a cloud layer that enables collaboration so anytime a company is using our product you know metadata we don't ever look at company data that's one promise we've made because we want to work in regulated industries we want to be in places where there are high security environments but we never pushed actual data to the cloud but met about a company's data so you know what's the name of a column you know what's the name of a database who's used often have they used it what dashboard names are using all those kinds of things could push to our cloud you know we use a language called Kotlin which is a java derivative to write most of our back-end code mostly because a lot of legacy data stores or you know designed to interoperate with Java and then you know we have a client component that lives on a user's machine and that's what facilitates a lot of the day-to-day work and we do that just for security purposes because you know because most data is behind a firewall whether it's cloud based or not is you know it gets independent of that it's oftentimes not publicly accessible we can't expect our cloud will be able to get directly to it right whether or in WSG CP or arouser we can work with any of them you know we you know expected the company's security policies requires some sort of you know local connectivity and so that's you know that that client it's actually just a product called electron that wraps you know react front ends are very very common and you know paradigms you know we try to pick packages that we think have some staying power cuz you know every time the wind blows there's a new framework that's you know the latest and greatest so that's that's awesome I talked about the marketplace and customer interactions you have up so you guys are a year and a half into this or so what's the feedback what are you seeing what are you learning what are the key signals from the marketplace that you're seeing that's supporting your company the direction you're going share some anecdotes and data around what you're seeing and hearing so we launched the the first personal product it was last May and what we were trying to do was get something out there in the wild that anybody could try and get value out of without having to go through like it's a sort of long enterprise sale cycle so download it you can use it you can share it with the guy next to you think of like an Evernote or a Google Drive style approach to actually being able to do something and you know so that that had some great success rate when we went out with announcement we announced we'd you know fun with the company we roughly we got 1500 users in the first four months just that we're trying it it was across about four to five hundred companies of four ish five ish users a company and that will let us get a bunch of feedback which was great right some of it was hey we don't like this and other words hey double down here and the key thing that we learned was they're sort of three audiences that we're serving right one is that traditional analysts which you know hopefully that was the case cuz that's where I came from and that was the goal there's also two other audiences I didn't expect as much of one being software engineers and software engineers that you know constantly pulled into you know like you said find the needle on the pile of needles and they don't want that to be their day job but they do want to like do it once and then share it with the rest organization and they don't have a place to do that today so there's a poly there's a great great you know audience of softwares and then the last one is actually business leaders that are the ones asking the questions and they want to find a place that they can go to that you know will answer the majority of them and so the feedback we've gotten is that there's probably three skins of the product that we're gonna have to build ones for that analysts the second a little bit more technical for an engineer and the third is actually very business-friendly which is just you know you don't care about sequel code you don't want Python code you don't want any code at all you just want to know the reports here or if it's not ask Danny that's interesting so the feedback of the marketplace is kind of lays out the workflow stakeholders yeah you know the analysts got to do their job and doesn't want to be coding so they bring the coder and coders once the kid put gets pulled into the project so they're doing their thing and they certainly want to get back to their coding but get pulled in for business reasons the business wants a search and discover yeah kind of all kind of coming together that seems to be the stakeholders it's the stakeholders exactly right I mean I think it's it almost lines up probably engineer analyst business leader right like in the engineer oftentimes is the one that has to go build a pipeline if that's what's needed right and the analyst is the one that consumes from it and then business leaders the one that looks the report every morning and says hope that's bad and really what you're getting down to his classic software development kind of thinking of DevOps and cloud computing which is you don't what you want to automate repetitive tasks and you don't want one offs all right so engineer doesn't want to do one office of constant one-off pipelining yep yep know that you hit the nail on the head like I think you know it like the whole notion of like self-service bi or self-service data like it it's aspirational I think it will be forever right even as you get into AI and yes automated AI and in you know a certain percentage of problems will always be able to be automated but a certain percentage won't be right it was get more point about the reporting is it's only good as the data being reported so you might feel good he's looking at a dashboard with underlying data that sucks and you're like you're dead in the water that's that's a very true thing unfortunately we saw that you know not just did like every company feels that but I talk about the environment and customer base okay as as you worked at linkedin which i think is a very acute example because you know linkedin is one of those magical companies where they really hit the data equation really well obviously it's like a resume for recruiters and it turned into a social network and then they got a treasure trove of data all kinds of gesture data they got great metadata on profiles now they've got a feed so again it's like Facebook analyst this data and so the unknowns probably got came came piling in so it's great proxy for as enterprises and businesses start thinking about how to think about the tsunami of new kinds of data not just grow the data but like hey there's all kinds of new data mobile the touch point gesture day all those kinda stuffs coming together how should they think about setting up a plan so if I'm a customer say hey you know I got a date I got Cuban of you data I got consumption data all these new things and what do I do yeah how do I create a holistic architecture yep take advantage of the different data silos or data sets but yet not screw up the operations of those days yes we can't stop right what's your advice on that cuz it seems to be a core problem it is and one of the things I think I've come to believe is that you know companies will get together and they'll spend months or even years coming up with like an architecture of the future right and and I don't believe that you can come up you know and sit in a room no matter how many days it takes and come up with something that's gonna be you know all things to all people like you're gonna basically need solutions that are nimble enough to be to be you know installed and get value very very quickly even if just a small amount of value and then grow with you over time so of course that's sort of the way we're set up right like you know you can come have a small team so take take on marketing operations D and they work with advertising data they're dealing with how do you get you know a lead and convert them into a sale they can use you know a product like cursor or I think any other good product in the marketplace should be you know you designed it this way where you you nibble on it you get some value and then you deploy it to other teams once you've learned how to how to best do that I think the like Big Bang approach of like hey this is our solution that's gonna you know work for everyone is really tough okay take an area we can get time to value quicker right and is it like a data Lake of model where you just kind of throw some data into one corpus or so we can have a base data doesn't actually live ever within cursor right we may you know if you're actually operating on it say you're an analyst you're writing some Python you're writing some sequel like yes I mean you for the sake of seeing in the UI it will temporarily be cached and encrypted there but we never actually store any company data we just point to it and when in in what we've built are these really intelligent connectors they can go mine what's there so if we're looking at a tableau instance we can say okay here all the dashboards there here all the code behind those dashboards here the table the data stores those dashboards are hitting here's are often they're consumed Oh every Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. 250 people in New York hit this dashboard and how do we learn from that and then hopefully make recommendations on it like what happens when data underlying a dashboard changes every Monday morning and all of a sudden it doesn't should that be a red flag somewhere that you know we should tell somebody that hey there's probably an issue with this so we're trying to really learn from things that are already there today as opposed to having you create new things what's next what's going on now how you going forward what's the key objectives for you guys yeah so I think there's two things really stage business like you can get sort of pulled into this hey we want to be a generic solution for everything what we found is that there probably a couple industries that are really they feel this problem really acutely and some of its financial services actually retail surprisingly just given you know dispersion of data inside retail so we've had pretty good success in both of those areas and I think our next step will be to actually probably formalize some you know sort of play books if you will and continue down that path and then integrations are that are the next thing right like we integrate with a bunch of stuff but we definitely won't agree with everything and there's you know an infinite amount of tools out there right so we want to continue to you know partner with companies that have you know Best of Breed solutions work with them to create deep integrations we're not trying to displace them what is trying to you know complement them and help drive you know the traffic to them that's looking for what's in there and so like that integration work is really never-ending why should the company keep up the old way to bring in the new way what's your what's your yeah I don't think they're actually having to give up the old way I think it's you know there are some things that you're gonna naturally be transitioning off of right there's there's always gonna be a bi solution that transitions from you know legacy to new whatever legacy may be defined as and as you're doing that there's there's there's this missing ingredient I feel like how do I track what's where when you could say that that was sort of solved by data catalog so I think the old data catalog is kind of dead and I think what's really happening is that you need something that works with you know where you are and every day whether you're an analyst a business leader or an engineer right and they can follow you along not disrupt you from your day-to-day workflow and also be intelligent about what's what what's where and that's sort of what we're trying to build well great to chat thanks for coming in spending the time talking about cursor congratulations on the venture thanks looking forward to seeing that be round coming soon yeah thanks for having you very much it's coming soon be round a round a round seed round and yeah it will definitely be on the on the near term horizon and Weinstein CEO cursor serial entrepreneur here inside the cube innovating around the data this is the new model this is what's going on it's the new wave that they're ride I'm John furry with the cube thanks for watching [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube! Covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back here on the Cube as we continue our coverage of Dell Technologies World 2018. We are live and we are in Las Vegas. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, we're now joined by Vince Affatati, whose the the global VP of sale and pre-sales at Dell EMC. It's good to see you sir. >> Thanks for having me. >> John: And Dan Serpico who's the CEO of FusionStorm. Dan, good to see you as well. >> Nice to see you. >> Thanks for joining us here we appreciate it, especially late in the day. >> Dan: Yeah absolutely, glad to be here >> First off Dan, tell us a little about FusionStorm and we'll get into the channel partnership a little bit later, but first off a little bit more about what you do. >> Great, well FusionStorm is a global solution provider, we're rapidly approaching a billion dollars in sales, probably hit a billion dollars in sales this year, and Dell Technologies is our principal partner. >> Alright and then the partnership program, if you would get, a little bit of great success, you know, it's just an absolute home run, but, again, how does working with Dan's company kind of personify what you do in the broader scheme? >> Yeah I mean, FusionStorm's a great partner, you know, part of what we want to talk about today is Ready Stack and how, kind of, this partnership and this program evolved based on, kind of cross-engineering and marketing that we do together and how, you know, Dan's team is so much closer, they're very close to the business of our customers and they have a great understanding of what's needed in the marketplace, so they're able to design and engineer and support the service solutions that are really unique, they hit an industry vertical and they really leverage, kind of, the best of our technologies, so, it's a great partnership. >> Dan: Yes it is. >> Yeah, Dan maybe you could expand a little, you said that, you know, Dell's your primary partner, why is that, you know, what kind of things do they do to enable you from a channel partner to meet what your customers need and, you know, make the money you need to run your business? >> Boy-oh-boy, we probably don't have enough time in this interview to talk about why Dell's our best partner. Look, all kidding aside, they are our largest partner, they have the broadest portfolio of technology solutions bar-none compared to any of our other partners, they're number one in most of the technology stacks, which is really important, our customers want leading edge technology. Our customers are Google, Facebook, Apple, Square, Pandora, they want leading edge technology as part of their play and Dell has really a incredible portfolio, then frankly, from the business side, the tremendous partnership with the great channel program, which gives us a terrific opportunity to partner from a marketing perspective, back-end rebates and incentives are a critical part of our value add and profitability model, so they touch all of the important points that make us a viable business. >> Vince, we talked to Marius Haas a little bit this morning about how the Dell and the EMC pieces came together and of course, you know, long history of channel with both sides, but bring us inside some of those, you know, incentives and rebates and things that Dan was talking to, you know, how does Dell set up those programs and, you know, bring us inside a little bit. >> Yeah, so, there's front-end rebates and there's back-end rebates, we're actually in our second year of rebate design, so we've done some things to kind of change it, but ultimately, there's rebates paid on dollar one across our full, a full stack, so, and then as the metal, as you go in the metal tiers, the rebates kind of increase, right, so our top tier partners get a higher rebate amount and then today, we announced a richer rebate for taking our competitive gear, so that's on the back-end and those are the traditional design. Now on the front-end we have storage rebates, we announced about five months ago or so, which incent you to basically sell our modern infrastructure or the storage side, include DPS into those designs and then take out competitive gear. We also have some incentives for proposal writing and demand generation as well, so a pretty rich program. >> Alright, so Dan here's the question I have for ya. Dell, they've got a lot of offerings out there and change is something that, you know, at the keynote this morning they said, you know, today compared to the past, you know, is the busiest we've ever been, but tomorrow there's even going to be more change. So, do they make it simple, I mean, you know, that's something, you know, we're all looking for, you got to run your business, you got to listen to your customers, you know, how is it easier when, you know, working with Dell? >> Well, I think it's easier because they are leading the pack, really, if you think about the world of technology and how it evolves constantly, everybody is leap-frogging everybody else every six months, so what you want is, you want a partner who's going to be leading the technology play for the future, honestly. Our business 15 years ago sold, 99% of what we sold 15 years ago, we do not sell a nickel today, not a nickel because that partner couldn't keep up with the evolution that takes place in technology today. So really, while I appreciate the question, it's really not about what's easy, it's what is most advanced so that you can stay competitive. >> You know, Vince was talking about incentives, he was talking about rebates, right. And so, from your side of that fence, if you will, how critical is it that you have those kinds of opportunities or you have that kind of incentive, I would think in a competitive environment, it's fairly crucial, right, I mean, you've got to be able to offer to each other and then down the line, that kind of value, right? >> It's tremendously important, we pride ourselves on our ability to help influence customers in their buy-decisions around technology, okay. And so, look we're not going to sell, regardless of what the incentives are, we aren't going to sell bad products and bad technologies 'cause that's a good way to lose customers, but certainly the financial rewards for our sellers, for our SEs, and for us as a company so we can continue to stay viable is critically important and we absolutely take advantage of the programs that are in place with Dell and others too, by the way, but certainly with Dell and direct our customers to those things that make the most sense for them. >> Yeah, right, I mean really, simple, predictable and profitable, we talk about it a lot, but that's ultimately where we're trying to go. We're not perfect, we've learned a lot, but, you know, strong partnerships like this make it clear that that's the right way to go about it and it is more than just incentives, it's staffing, it's dedicating people to help, help make the business easier, doing boot camps and joint seminars and, you know, selling together. And that works. >> Vince, the other thing, can you put into context for us, you know, Ready Stack, we've got everything from, you know, Full Stack, everything bake to, you know, some of the software platforms, you know. What's in here and, you know, how does this fit in the overall? >> So, Ready Stack is a way to address a market that we haven't gone after directly, which is the build systems, when you look at converge infrastructure, it's about a six billion dollar market. We own about 49% of that and with the VxBlock 1000, is a good example of those, kind of, integrated systems, right? But what we haven't really done a lot of and we're really going into feet-first, head-first is the idea that we want to help with customers who aren't ready to buy the Full Stack, but they want to do something that's engineered special right? So, providing, Ready Stack is a way to, it's so we're close with our, it's a partner exclusive program we work with the partners to make it easier for them to sell our tech, right, into converged environments to help solve problems. I mean, it's something that you guys do everyday, already, but it's a program to help with the engineering and provide incentives, to make that easier to do. >> Well, I think that's right, the converged infrastructure which is, you know, what we call this, is probably, outside of maybe cloud computing and that world, the single fastest growing part of the tech space today, right? It's what our customers need, it's what our customers want. I think that what's unique about the Ready Stack play here, the architecture, is that it's flexible, okay? It's flexible and leads with Dell and leads with certified architecture, as opposed to others who are just taking piece parts from different vendors, cobbling it together and calling it a certified converged play, this is a truly converged play that has flexibility. Flexibility could mean that someone's, a customer's storage needs grow faster than compute needs or vice versa, alright? So you're not locked in a solution, but you still, you're locked in on a framework that allows you to expand based on your unique needs, then when you take their architecture and their engineering capabilities in combination with ours, the blueprints, you get, you have a really robust solution that we can align ourselves with and be consistent in terms of our delivery to the customers. >> So, you tell us about flexibility, I mean that, that's kind of a buzzword, right? I mean, you want to give people the ability to customize, right? Do people, I mean, are your customers now, you know, Dan, do they really, I mean, do people know what they want or because they have new capabilities, they have new, there are new avenues they can go down, new choices. I mean, how do you get 'em there? >> Well, our customers are very smart, again, if you heard the partial list of customers that we have, they are very smart and they're looking at this. >> Stu: You mentioned a couple of big names there. >> We've recognized a few of those. >> But they are very smart and access to Dell, lot of them are here at Dell Technologies World, they read information on the internet, these are very smart people, of course, but let's not undermine our role, or underestimate our role in helping them, whether it's through our labs, to do bake-offs, we can take, we can run some of their workloads on our architecture or the Dell architecture versus others and they can see how this technology works or how their workloads work, what performs better for them for their unique specs. There is constantly discussion around white boarding, okay? The technology is moving all the time and I don't think that can be underestimated either, right? If you look at a data center, if you picked up a thousand customers and looked at their data center, probably no three of them would be exactly alike because of the nature of technology, so what you need, is you need an OEM, like Dell Technologies get a robust portfolio of products and a good partner, like FusionStorm who can offer that robust portfolio and help it be fully integrable with all these other technologies, right? Look, the truth of the matter is that we would love to rip out somebody else, but that has a depreciation life and CIOs have to live with something they bought last year, for three years. So, how is that compatibility going to exist? That's very important; so all those things are part of the education of our customers. >> Vince, I know there's a huge push at this show, working with the channel partners, bringing them all together; but give us a little view past Dell Technologies World, you know, for this program, some of the roadmaps; what should we, that are watching the industry, look for throughout the rest of the year and in the channel partners? >> So, you mean what's coming forward or what? >> Stu: Just walking away from here. >> John: The road ahead! >> Stu: Your program, the road ahead, yeah. >> The road ahead, absolutely, so I'll tell you, particularly, let me focus for a minute on, on Ready Stack and where we're going there. So, as I said, we're, the idea here is maximum flexibility, but we also want to provide guidance and compatibility and sizing. So, what you'll see from us over the next year, is a lot, a lot of engineering around this program and working on building different scenarios, common scenarios and scenarios that we're learning about, you know, working with FusionStorm and our other partners, around the world. So, you'll see a lot of engineering going on around creating these design guides to deployment guides and help with sizing and we think that's really important. You'll also notice that, this is going to be hypervisor agnostic and so they'll be support for other hypervisors in this, we realize that other people do use other hypervisors besides VMware, which is kind of odd, but we know it exists, right, so a KVM we're work, they'll be, you'll see solutions that support KVM, we'll have solutions for Docker, we'll see, you'll see Hyper-V in here as well. Again, it's a realization that there's more to this do-it-yourself kind of options and we want to be there to support that, but we do think great integration, great support, sizing, is what you'll see more of as we kind of go through the year. >> Which brings us right back to flexibility, right? Give the people what they want, when they need it, right? >> Now we also say, our engineer systems, right? VxRail, our hyper conversion converge systems, we're not saying we're de emphasizing that, we're not at all, but we're realizing that, you know, more and more working with our partners there's, we're addressing a very large and growing part of the market space. >> Dan, Vince, thanks for being with us. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much. >> We appreciate the time, enjoy the rest of the show, but I'm sure it's going well for ya. >> It's wonderful. >> And we hope to see you down the road. >> Terrific. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for joining us. Back with more here on the Cube; we're live in Las Vegas at Dell Technologies World 2018. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's the Cube, covering blockchain unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (upbeat Cuban music) >> Hello there, and welcome back to our exclusive coverage. This is the Cube's coverage in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound. We start week of variety of activities here on the island around blockchain, cryptocurrency, the decentralized internet, the future of work, the future of play, the future of society, all here, happening. My next guest is an entrepreneur. Steve Steward is the CEO and co-founder of that's V-E-Z-T. Really changing the game around music, relationship to fans, and using blockchain and tokens to enable that. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you so much John, it's great to be here. >> Thanks for coming on, so first talk a little bit about what your value proposition, what you guys are doing. Obviously, people who ever downloaded iTunes, and then said, "This sucks, let's go to Spotify." Now are going, "Hey, I'm on Instagram. "I have access to my artist directly." The internet is a response vehicle; one on one. Tell them about your opportunity. >> There's two value props. One for the consumer, right? So, if you're an artist fan, and you love a song. You love an artist. You want to be involved with that artist on a one to one basis, there's no way to do that right now. You can follow somebody on Twitter, you can like their YouTube, that doesn't connect you with them. Our platform let's you buy in, and by buy in I mean ownership. You own a piece of the IP with that artist in their song, so it's on a song by song basis. But if Ariana Grande's my favorite artist, I want to buy a little slice of her song for $10 or $100, I now have the opportunity to put that out there, and I can share in that royalty stream with her. And she and I will connect on a level. If she wants to take my information and send other things to me like concert tickets or backstage passes, that's possible now. So the value prop for the fan, is connection with the artist and ability to say, "I own a piece of that royalty stream. "I own a piece of that song." And on the artist side the value prop is, "I now get to actually share directly with my fans, "build that community directly. "There's no gate keeper like a label "or publishing company in the middle, "and I have the ability to reach out "and monetize directly based on demand and merit. "Then take that and do whatever I want "and build up my brand." >> So this is a great example where artists that have direct relationships, might be undervalued. Also, in a way there doing their own mini ICO, so to speak, with their fans by sharing in the future value of the success with the people that got 'em there. >> They are, we call it an ISO, Initial Song Offering. So just like a ticket on sale, it allows an artist to pick a time and date and say, "At noon on Thursday, I'm putting out 5% of my song "to raise $10,000." They pick the pricing, they pick the amount they want to put up, we admin the actual royalty stream for those people that put money into it, and the artist keeps the rest of it. >> I've seen a lot of pitches, I've seen a lot of stuff online, "Oh yeah, we're going to revolutionize "the new music industry, were going to use tokens." I've seen I feel pitches, but again, if you look at the smart money investors, they're looking at deals and saying, "Is there a network effect? "Is there a protocol of some sort in there?" Obviously you've identified a relationship that has tokenization or token economics built into the business model. Take a minute to explain that key tokenization. Why you're business is set for token economics? Why you, over someone else? >> So my backgrounds in the music business, I used to manage a band called Stone Temple Pilots for 20 years. Actually for 10 years, from 1990 to 2000. I had 20 other artist in that meantime. I understand the pain points from an artists perspective. I also know where the value is in the industry. It's in the publishing. Most of these entertainment businesses, the IP is where the real value is. Film, books, T.V., music, it's all in the underlying content. Not the distribution, not how many times I've downloaded it, but the actual ownership of the content. What we want to do, is put that in a basis so the artist can now take that on a fractional basis. We can use a tokenized product to let the fans buy in. The blockchain helps us track those rights, keep them secure, make them transparent, and allow the ownership to be shared between thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. >> And this also helps build community. I want to get your thoughts on something. I held a panel on Sundance this year, Sundance Film Festival, called The New Creative. What you're seeing emerging is a new artist. The new artists are digital native, their fan base is direct. Things we just talked about. But they're undervalued, because the gatekeepers, either the studios and or labels in your instance, are controlling distribution and they're also controlling the activities. So we all know what Apple's done with some of their artists, and artists have to go on the road and do all this work. Well digital changes all that, so from your perspective as a industry guru in music, how has digital changed that dynamic? And talk about this new artist breed, this new young upcoming digital generation of artists. >> There's two things. First, internet really hasn't delivered what it said it was going to the music community, right? When you had Napster come out, it's great for the fan base. The artist and the creators actually lost out. Music got valued from here to here. It went almost to zero. People were sharing files for free, so at some point we thought-- >> Regulatory tried to solve that legal-- >> Tried and tried, but once you build a generation on free, it's hard to change that. On the fan side it was great. There was a lot more distribution. On the artist and creator side, it wasn't so great. What we're trying to do is bring value back to that. We're going to use digital in a way that lets people share what they believe in, without these gatekeepers like you said; fully demand based. If I'm the small artist who plays banjo in Kentucky, but I've got a 100,000 fans who really love me, and they can show that by buying in, forget the labels. Forget the publishers. Forget the brands. I now have a direct connection. I'm earning a living directly from my fan base, which is how it should be. >> Kind of like we do open source content. We were talking about our business, you are enabling people to self-identify with the artist, letting the artist be open to that, make that handshake or if you will, digital handshake, and have a relationship beyond just being a fan. >> Most of the labels, in fact all the labels: Spotify, YouTube, Pandora. None of those platforms let the artist share directly with the consumer, right? If I say, "Look, I've got 20,000 streams today, "can you tell me who they were, no. "Can you show me where the downloads are, no." Why aren't they letting those people connect. The artist has a natural connection with their fans. >> That's because the tech platforms are optimized for a different business model. Look at Facebook, they're living in their own problem. Their success is almost killing them. They have this centralized data optimization for the wrong incentive. They're optimizing data for advertising, not user experience. In this case, you're saying, "Hey, lets use the infrastructure and crypto "to optimize the fan relationship and expand it." >> The reason artists get on stage, the reason they write a song, is to connect with people, right? We've disembodied that connection to the point where they're out there in the ether and the fans are over here. They're like, "How do we get together?" If we can bring that back, there's a very powerful connection there that we can take advantage of and let people actually make money from their craft. >> Well Steve, great to have you on The Cube because one, you have domain expertise, you're business model solid, and we've been saying yesterday and on The Cube that it's a reverse of the old stack model. The top of the stack is the business model. You nail the business model, the underlying plumbing will sort itself out. With that in mind, how are you guys looking at the plumbing? What are you doing here in Puerto Rico? Are you raising money? Are you doing an ICO? Take a little bit to explain your relationship to the plumbing under the hood, in the blockchain, crypto world. And then what you guys are doing here in Puerto Rico. >> We started building our platform the traditional way. We took traditional VC funding about a year ago. As we were building the platform, we understood the importance of a blockchain, some type of decentralized ledger that allows people to look transparently under the ownership stack. As we were building that, one of our engineers said, "hey, have you guys heard of an ICO?" we had no idea what this was. It was about a year ago. Got educated very quickly, dove deep on it, and realized there's an opportunity, not really for the fact that it's crypto, but to actually capitalize the company in a meaningful way. We want to scale this very quickly. We've got strategic partners in Asia, other parts of the world, that we need to grow very quickly into. We realized it was an opportunity to have. We did a raise close of December 1st; oron exchanges. >> An equity raise or a token raise? >> The token raise. We did a U.S. based PPM SAFT. >> So a security token. >> It's a utility token, but we followed a process that our legal advisors advised us. In the U.S., keep it as a PPM SAFT. If it's offshore, it's offshore. >> So accredited investors? >> Accredited investors only, small cap, try to keep it reasonable, because we don't need 100 billion dollars to build this platform right now. We're looking to get this in a traditional business sense, so we're building a real platform with a real team. We took advantage of that. We got listed on an exchange January 12th. At this point, we're head down in product. We're looking to launch this in 45 days at Coachella. We had an event two nights ago at South by Southwest. We came up here from Austin, so we're going back to California tomorrow. >> John: You're on a plane. >> Yeah, we're on a roadshow. We've got artist brand partners now. We're signing people, two or three artists a week that come in. We've got publishing catalogs that are coming on board realizing that there's a B to be played, because publishers only monetize the top two or 3% of their catalogs. The other 98% get no love. If they can put that on a retail platform like us, and allow consumers to buy directly into it, it's a whole windfall for them. >> Everyone's a media company these days. We've been saying it, and that's the new media model. You got a great formula, good luck. We'd love to keep in touch. >> Absolutely. >> What are you guys looking to do next six months as you get the product out the door? Ecosystem, you got to recruit more artists? What's the plan? >> My goal is 100,000 songs in the platform by the end of summer. Like I said, we're doing a lot of brand activations at music festivals. We see people, you know, exponential growth. Each song comes with an artist fan base. This builds into it. We're also supporting producers, co-writers, performers, the other guys that aren't on the stage. We realize this platforms for them, because the own live ownership in these songs, but have never had a way to monetize it. We're growing this very quickly. >> Steve Steward, CEO/co-founder of that's V-E-Z-T. Check 'em out. If you like music, this is a great way to actually take part in being a fan and owner of the actual property; great business model. We'll keep in touch. Thanks for sharing on The Cube. More live coverage here on The Cube, bringing you all the action, and extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more coverage after this break. >> Thanks guys, thanks John. (electronic instrumental music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau, in the Bahamas, it's The Cube. Covering Polycon '18. Brought to you by PolyMath. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is The Cube's live coverage in the Bahamas of Polycon '18, put on by PolyMath and Grit Capital. And a special guest who just did a walk-by, fly-by, The Cube wanted to bring him in, Jeremy Gardner. We've chatted with him all week, influencer, entrepreneur, venture capitalist now, been involved in crypto, dropped out of college, luminary in the industry, young gun, great to have you on The Cube. Thanks for coming on. >> That is the most honorific title I've ever received. >> We like to shoot the shit around here on The Cube. Seriously, though, you have a big following in the community, well respected, I mean, a lot of cool things going on. A lot of young people working on projects, you're one of them. A lot of old people coming in, that have skills, whether it's cryptography or the other ecosystems, interesting blend. You've also worked on the Augur project, which has been highly successful. It's been a great case, and I hear people point to it all the time, say, "Love that concept", but a lot of cool tech. And you're at Ausum Ventures right now, that you're running. What's your take right now? I want to get into some specifics on some tech questions, but, you know, you're out there, you've done some things, you're in the middle of it, you get a fresh perspective. What's going on? What's your view and how do you see it playing out in this business? >> What we see occurring in 2018 is an incredible maturation of the industry. We've gone from Bitcoin to cryptocurrencies to blockchain technology, to this concept of smart contracts and de-centralized applications, to this ICO fad, to now what we're seeing here at this conference, which is the emergence of security tokens. And this evolution represents the broadening of the blockchain economy as a whole. From something that once was this niche little kind of ideological technology to something that is totally global, and perhaps as big as the internet, if not bigger. And that maturation is really important, because as the market matures, a lot of the scams that we've seen in years past will begin to fade away. That being said, I think we're going to need to see a real shake-out in the industry, a bloodbath in the markets where a lot of these poorly formulated tokens, crypto assets, disappear before we see a really blossoming crypto economy. >> It's like you got to clear the digestive tract of all the bad food you ate. I mean, you got to kind of get it out. >> Exactly, it's a purge. There's so much toxic crap in this industry today, it has to disappear before we can really evolve into something that rivals Wall Street. >> Yeah, and it's early on, too. I got to say, we've seen many waves in our day, Cube, we cover it. What I like about what's happening now is you've got an ecosystem forming, you've got people like yourself who are putting out statements like that, which is, quite frankly, a signal. And people need to speak up right now, because we've got to identify the bad stuff. So the ecosystem's forming. >> Well, it can be hard to do that when you're making a lot of money on crap. I mean, I've missed out on a lot of money-making opportunities 'cause I've been ideologically pure. I've only invested in projects that I truly believe will change the world. That can be limiting. And I don't blame people that kind of set aside ethics or quality projects for a greater profit mode, I'm a big believer in capitalism, but fundamentally, that mentality has to go in order for us to take this technology to the next stage. >> Okay, money making's going to happen, there's going to be some high flyers, and some are going to be legitimately good intentions that may turn out to be crap, and then there's going to be total crap, which starts out to be a scam, anyway. >> Right. >> How do you look at those signals? I mean, obviously you want to look for trajectory and community and tokens. How do you look at it? Is it underpinnings of the tech? Is there a business model? What's your view on how to look for those potential trajectories? >> In my view, it's just like venture capital. It starts with the team every single time. Team, team, team, then concept, then market, then tech. I mean, the tech changes, the code's constantly being updated. I'm not a coder; it's something that can evolve, it's something that, once you raise capital, you can have better technologists building out your tech stack. That doesn't really concern me. It's, is this team going to execute, are they going to be able to iterate in a fast-moving business environment in which the tides are always turning, regulators are always doing different things? Are you going to be able to adapt and evolve, and are you going to work together as a team? I take teams out to dinner, I see how they interact with one another. Do they have symbiosis, or are they kind of antagonistic? If they have an antagonistic relationship, it doesn't matter how good the concept is, how great the tech is, because the team won't stay together. And I don't want to have to make those sorts of bets on who's going to be the winning player. I'll stay in touch with the team, but I'll rarely make that investment. >> Yeah, they got to be ready for battle together. They've got to get down and dirty. >> So I hold teams paramount in early-stage investing, which is all I do. >> Awesome. So what are you excited about today, right now? What are you looking at, what's floating your boat, what's getting you excited, what's the specific-- >> So, Augur's about to go on the mainnet, so it's going to be the first truly de-centralized, consumer facing, de-centralized application. Very exciting. I think it could change the world of finance forever, and the way we predict the future. So it's mainnet going live, and then three months after that, hopefully the actual platform going fully live. It's still the most exciting project in the crypto-space, in my view. Even though I've been involved for a couple of years. I am an advisor to Basecoin, which is wrapping up its presale right now. Basecoin is an algorithmic stable coin that today maintains parity with the dollar, and it, I think, is going to be one of the most necessary components. It, or another stable coin, will be one of the most necessary components of creating a true crypto-economy. 'Cause if you look at most of the blockchain applications today, most of them are using these volatile crypto-assets as forms of payments and transactions, and that doesn't work for your average consumer, or even for large enterprises. People do not like volatility. It's a compounding risk factor for almost any sort of transaction. And so for us to have a real robust crypto-economy, we need a stable coin. My bets are on Basecoin, but I'm rooting for all the teams. Because whoever does this, and it may be multiple teams, will have unlocked one of the biggest problems that effects crypto-assets today, which is volatility. >> And liquidity is also a concern, people want to get liquid. That's also a dynamic of why token economics works, is you don't have the process of going public. You can do a little bit of funding and liquidity. Talk about the liquidity impact. >> Yeah, I mean, look. ICOs and token sales are this fabulous way to democratize finance and raise capital, especially for de-centralized applications and new protocols. They really can't take a traditional fundraising mechanism. That being said, if you are trying to create any sort of payment token, which I would never encourage anyone to do, but if you are, like a lot of these utility tokens, their point is for the purpose of payments. And that's idiotic to me, 'cause you're going to do what? Raise $30 million, maybe $100 million? Let's say $200 million. What's the volatility on that going to be daily, or annualized? It's insane, it will never be adopted by consumers. And furthermore, anyone that tries to create a payment token for their specific application, what they're not recognizing is someone's going to have to go to Coinbase, buy Bitcoin, send it to Poloniex, buy their token, send it to the application, just to make a payment? No way! >> Yeah, too complex. Credit cards are always going to beat that out, or Bitcoin and ether. >> Alright, so I've heard on The Cube here, and I've also heard in the hallway, a consistent theme I want to get your reaction to. This marketplace of having de-centralized apps, and blockchain, and cryptocurrency kind of dynamic really disrupts areas that have a lot of slack, or lag, or unused resource. It could be a physical asset, could be computers in the data center doing P2P stuff, and that this market busts down those inefficiencies, creates efficiency, that's the arbitrage. >> It can. >> Your reaction to that. >> It can, but like I say, how do you get access to those tokens? So the rise in security exchanges, security token exchanges, and more robust crypto-asset exchanges, will potentially enable that right now. But unless you have an easy way to buy and store those tokens that are freeing up illiquid assets in a dynamic manner, tokenizing assets isn't very useful. You know, with Blockchain Capital, my last venture fund, we created the first liquid venture fund. It was actually the first security token ever. And the problem that we ran into was everyone was excited, we created this liquid, limited-partner interest in a venture fund, but the problem was there was no place to trade it or sell it. And so, despite the nav of the fund going up, the price of the token remained the same, 'cause there was no liquid exchange. So you need a liquid place for the exchange of value in order for the liquidization of these assets to occur. Furthermore, I think more important than that point is that blockchains are fundamentally the largest technological disintermediator that has ever existed in human history. Even, since the beginning of time, pretty much, we have always relied on middlemen, whether they're banks or governments or tribal councilmen, to mitigate any sort of transaction. With blockchains, we can now have truly trustless transactions, and disintermediate trillions of dollars' worth of middlemen and trolls under the bridge. And that's the most revolutionary component of this technology. >> That's awesome. I want to get one quick question in, we're tagged for time. This rise of the security token has been a great innovation. We've seen great traction because of the security token, we're seeing PolyMath doing a lot of people looking at this as a stabilization. What does it do to the utility token? Does it change the nature of the utility token? Will utility token have a life that's not a monetizable thing? Will it still trade? What's your view and vision on the role of the utility token now that the security token has been established as a viable mechanism? >> So look, when we were building Augur, we did not want to issue a token. ICOs were really scary back then, but we realized, in order to have a truly de-centralized prediction market platform, we had to have a second token. One that wasn't used for payments, but that created a de-centralized consensus in our network. And so we created the first utility token ever. And back then, I was like, oh, this is novel, this is cool. We tried selling it to people; No one really got it. But then, it seems like we went and opened up Pandora's Box. All of a sudden, utility tokens flourished in the past two years, as this means to raise capital. The problem was, nobody was thinking beyond that capital raise. And so most of those utility tokens would have been much better as security tokens. They didn't actually provide much utility. And so I think those tokens, that 99%, 98% of utility tokens that have come out in the past two years, that didn't actually have true utility, those will go, you know. >> Yeah, I think it's some interesting conversation. I want to follow that up when we get back to the Bay Area. This is super important, I really love the idea that you're kind of teasing out. I see utility tokens having an instrumental role in governance consensus, other community dynamics, which might have its own value. I don't know yet what it looks like, but we'll certainly follow up. >> Absolutely, and security tokens will be the largest crypto-asset in the next two to three years. >> Jeremy Gardner, great conversation. Love the young guns, man. They're so smart, great to have you on, us old guys, we're just trying to keep up with these young guns. Back with more live coverage after this short break. Good job, man. >> My pleasure, man. >> You're awesome, dude. Alright. Hey, when we get back, I really want to get, I think the utility, I think the dual-token model is the way to go. Security, and >> I didn't think it would, but right now, the problem is most utility tokens-- (electronic music)

(upbeat tech music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube! covering, AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Well, welcome back to the sands, we're here in Las Vegas, just off the strip, as the re:Invent show continues here with a really exciting day one. You talk about buzz on the show for it, the place has been jampacked since they opened the doors at 11 o'clock our time this morning, and continues to do so, and I imagine for the next two or three days, you're going to see a lot of people. 50,000 plus. A lot of exhibitors, a lot of people, a lot of buzz, a lot of excitement here around the AWS community. We have with us now, Chris Wahl, who is the chief technologist at Rubrik, and he knows so much about this space, it takes three hosts to surround him. >> It does, to talk to him. >> John Wahl is here, Lisa Martin to my left, Justin Warren on the far right. You're surrounded. >> I am, you've ganged up on me. >> Yeah right, and rightly so. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Justin can't wait. >> He's got the evil eye from Justin. >> Chris: This feels like a trap. >> There's some good history here going on, so we'll find out a little bit later on. First off, Chris, do welcome. Well, welcome the Cube. Tell us a little bit about Rubrik, and your place here and your feelings about the show. >> Yeah, yeah. So, Rubrik, about two and a half years in the market, about three and a half years old as a company. Really focused on solving the conundrum around, there's all this public cloud stuff out there, and everyone's kind of feeling the elephant with the blindfold on, describing it differently. And we're trying to figure out, how can we take that cloud type architecture that's out there in the world, and combine that with an almost 50 billion dollar TAM that is data protection, back up recovery archive. Put those two together to solve challenges within the enterprise is really struggling with. Onboarding into the cloud, and using those resources, as well as making sure their assets, be it the application, the data itself, or, a physical server, be protected and available for recovery in a really, really quick way. So that's kind of the high level pitch of Rubrik, around the last ten major releases of the product, and it's been a rocket ship, I've really enjoyed it. >> John: Great. >> So bigger focus in enterprise, or are you also playing with the startups and also helping the transition? >> That's a good question, I mean, originally we were kind of looking mid market, you know, like, let's kind of go for that sweet spot, but very early on, a lot of large enterprise customers came up and said, wow, you're fully restful API compliant, the full stack is distributed and scaled out, and really solves their problems, so they kind of pulled us into that space, and ever since, we've really embraced the large enterprise globally. It doesn't really matter where you are in the world, those are challenges that are kind of ubiquitous across verticals and the market. >> So, I've got a good storage and backup background, as you well know. >> Okay. >> There has been such a big shift in data storage and backup, and data protection in the last, say, three or five years. What do you think is driving that, because really, like backup recovery was always a hygiene function, it was boring, no one really wanted to spend any money on it, but now you're part of this guard of brand new ways of doing things, that has that part of the market being kind of exciting again. >> I almost feel like we got used to the horrible nature of that business. Because, as a technologist, I was a customer for about 13 years, I was in the channel for about five. And it was always, well, this is just the way it is, and you've got to put up with slower stores that were clunky, it was seen as an insurance policy. I think as the enterprise matured to the point, where everything else was amazing and hyper converged, and driven by APIs, and cloud is starting to eat up part of the data center, we finally saw, okay, this isn't going to stand, we can't operate in a model where an RTO is days, or even many hours, and it's really heavy lift, and I needed a full team of people to manage this stuff. So I think as the technology advanced, as well as kind of outpaced all of the data protection, software, and solutions are out there, it just kind of had to happen. And another thing, as cloud and object store also permeated the market, it really gave us a great opportunity to use that for long term retention. Beyond just the old tape and things like that. >> Yeah, okay. >> Yeah, that sounds fair. >> And what do you think has bene the biggest cultural change? Because, there's a lot of technology that goes into that, but you're talking about having whole teams of people who have to herd this stuff around with small little toothbrushes and stuff just to keep the thing running, whereas now, you can pretty much run it with one or two guys just sitting there, and go yeah, it just works. >> Well, it's similar to, remember when we went through virtualization, and it used to be whole armies of people managing all these pizza boxes, and tube servers, and there was just a lot of infrastructure and operation people necessary to run the data center, and then we virtualized, and I know my personal story was there was two of us managing 1,300 virtual machines. >> Wow! >> Right? So that scale is astronomical compared to what we're used to, we'll then apply that kind of mentality to data protection and it's yeah, it's a few minutes from one person, or distributed team that spends a few minutes a week, maybe a month, something like that, managing things more at the policy and the tag, and the meta data layer, and it's that journey all over again. So the nice part is we've done this before, we know it can be done, but kind of the hard part is, people are always the hardest part of the equation, and sometimes it's tough to put your hands off the handlebars of the bike and just say, I trust an intelligent system to manage this part of the stack, and I'm gonna go focus on where are we trying to go. >> Justin: Yeah, you know. >> Speaking of trust, you know, you talked about how your enterprise customers had pulled you into or up the chain there, a lot of what Andy Jussy said recently to John Furrier is, 18 billion dollar run rate, growing up 42% a year ... They haven't gotten this big with just startups alone. So he's talking about enterprise as really being on the precipice of this mass migration. How does being a young company, how does your relationship with AWS help give more credibility to Rubrik as a trusted advisor to these enterprises? >> Yeah, I'll kind of start at the end and work my way backwards. So we recently hit the advanced tier partner status with Amazon. And part of that I would site a couple of public references with Castalia schools, as well as Fuji Rabio, are two different companies in different parts of the market, but they're very much focused on, we need a partner that can bring us into the cloud, kind of on board us into that environment. AWS was the specific cloud provider they were looking to get into, without kind of operationally. That's a scary thing, you know? It's tough as an infrastructure, or as an operations focused engineer, or even as a developer I think sometimes, to say, I wanna take this data, and it represents my apps, and my servers, and my solution stack, and put that into public cloud. Either for archive and retention, or potentially to use our cloud instantiation solution that was recently renounced, where they can start building workloads into public cloud. So I think that's why, kind of at that point, we work backwards a little bit to say, as we work with the customers that we're looking to do that, before it was, well, you have to learn all this stuff, and really become super technically deep on it, and I love that article by the way, I thought it was really deep, but if you looked at this week in AWS, that by Quinny Pig on Twitter, he's always pointing out every week, the S3 bucket failure, because it's hard, cloud is really, really hard. So if you have that kind of abstraction layer that can make it really simple for customers, to on board in there. It's simple, but it's also abstracted from the nuances across multiple public cloud providers, including AWS. I think that's the magic sauce that really gets people excited about it. >> That abstraction also probably gives them a little bite more comfort, right? >> Exactly. >> Some of the sausage making, they don't have to see. >> Exactly, cuz part of our secret sauce, is as the data is entering into that environment, we're not just saying okay, it's there, done, it's now your problem. Part of our cloud data management story is that the data enters that environment, but we're constantly checking it, making sure it's valid, making sure that it's secure. We handle all of the encryption. The data efficiency. The whole end to end life cycle of the data is respected, whereas traditionally, it was, you just kind of scrape data out of the data center, you drop it off into an S3 bucket, you pray that it's going to be there when you need it, and who knows? Now it's IT offices problem. We don't just do the hand off and say good luck, we handle it from cradle to grave for all the data. >> Now, you mentioned a little bit ago, you were talking to Justin, you talked about the horrible nature of things four or five years ago, right? So, no matter what time you're in, there's always a horrible nature of things. There's always a problem, so now that whatever was the issue then, what is the issue now? As you, new capabilities will develop, it will open up a whole new Pandora's box of challenges and problems. You have unforeseen issues, so what do you guys, when you're looking at your headlights, twelve, eighteen months down the road, you say, oh yeah, this is our next one we've got to tackle, this is the baby we've got to get our arms around? >> For me more near term, it's around the transition from trusting infrastructure, to provide high availability and disaster recovery, and moving that more towards the application and the stack itself. So, holistically, in the past, you'd have two data centers, they'd replicate, one's for DR, one's not. The cloud wasn't really in that equation, and all of the redundancies was handled at the infrastructure layer. Well, okay, now, if we can kind of surround meta data around the application, provide instant search, global availability, replication, the ability to actually stand up those applications in a public cloud? Well now the question is, do I really need that infrastructure layer anymore? Do I need the second data center? Can't I just use public cloud, or an MSP, or someone that's providing Rubrik as a service as an example of a service to provide that for me? More long term, I tend to look at, kind of in the discussion that I saw between John and Andy Jassy, was around the part where I get really nerdy is around like server lists, and the ability to provide functions kind of in the data path. And now I start to imagine, okay, we're putting a lot of data for customers into public cloud and even into private object store resources, and there's the ability, I think there was Green Grass as an example, where you can kind of put that shim layer into the edge to do the function as the data's going in there. There's a lot of interesting opportunities that I'm looking forward to in the next year where, well, we already have an index of the data, we are already very cognizant and content aware when it comes to what we're protecting. Wouldn't it be cool if we could do more interesting things with the data in flight, as well as where it's ultimately resting, kind of like with the announcements with the media and the trans-coding and the video services that I think came out rather recently. So that's kind of the two stage answer to that question that I have. >> So Chris, one of the ways that AWS has succeeded, is by appealing to developers. And you're talking there about things that are in the application layer, that have nothing to do with infrastructure, and developers hate infrastructure. So what are some of the things that you're doing, that Rubrik is doing to appeal to developers specifically in being able to access their data and not have to manage it, as you say, the way we used to do it, which was, the very infrastructure centric problem? What are you using to expose the data and to manage it as a data problem, rather than an infrastructure problem? >> Well, I think that goes back to traditionally how we managed infrastructure. Especially on Prim, and it was all very manual, very imperative, meaning you're pulling the lever, and you're telling the system ... It's a dumb system that you're the intelligent layer of it and you have to control it. And that, it doesn't work in the cloud model at all, and it really, I don't think it works long term in the data center model. Because then I need, I always have to scale literally people to data. And that doesn't work. >> Yeah, humans don't scale. >> Right, we can't just get magically more of us. So what we've done differently from day one was designed a system where every component within the stack, even internal communications, are calling restful APIs, and the whole system is distributed. So there's no controller that you have to deal with, you don't have to become, you don't have to know anything about storage to use the product. It's not infrastructure bound, so you're able to control it completely through restful APIs, or through configuration management tools, cloud management platforms, etc. So if you're a developer looking to, alright, I have an application, I want to make sure that it's automatically protected as part of that process, and sent to AWS, and automatically build me a cloud instantiation, and EC2 is an instance ... Great, make one, two, maybe three API calls, you don't have to know anything about infrastructure, which is the panacea, no developer wants to like, dig into V lands and things like that. That's really cool, and it solves a very valid business case in that if one person can write the code, and it works, just repeat that process, and it scales infinitely. I don't need extra developers for that. >> So to be able to do that, I need to understand that that API exists, so what are you doing to actually show developers that hey, this thing is here and this is how it works? Here's something that you actually know how to do! How are you exposing that idea to the developers? >> Well, very early on, we worked with swagger, which ultimately has become the open API spec to that O, and so every node within our distributed system actually surfaces the entire API suite, in two formats. One, is like a playground, so you can, even if you're newer to APIs, maybe on the infrastructure side, you can kind of do a, try it now button, you can kind of say, what would happen? And it surfaces what the call would look like, and how to structure properly, and what the return codes are, but more importantly, there's also the why and the how of the API in a different kind of documentation suite, using redoc, where you can go in and literally see, okay, what's the mindset here? What's the use case? What's the example? And I feel like that's typically what's missing in a lot of these equations, where it's just, here is the nuts and bolts, here is the tactical information, here is, push this button, things happen. It's more like, here is why you would use it, here's an example, and a lot of the code to do that has already been created by our ranger team internally and made either exposed publicly as open source as privately as something that we share with out customer base. >> Cool. >> Well, Chris, you described, like you said, a rocket ship, right? You've been on for two and a half years, I think you better fasten that seatbelt, it's not going to slow down for you, I don't think. >> Chris: (laughing) I appreciate that. >> Which is a good thing, right? >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, it's all good. >> Chris: Yeah, I know. >> John: I hope you didn't feel ganged up on either, right? You came out here, it was okay? >> It's a pretty friendly crowd, I appreciate that. >> I think so. Chris Wahl from Rubrik joining us here as we continue our coverage live here on the Cube, we're at AWS's re:Invent, live in Las Vegas, back with more in just a bit. (soft tech music)