>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80, but startup showcases MarTech is the focus. And this is all about the emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting, fast growing startups from the cloud AWS ecosystem to talk about the future and what's available now, where are the actions? I'm your host John fur. Today. We joined by Cub alumni, Jerry Chen partner at Greylock ventures. Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on, >>John. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate you welcome there for season two. Uh, as a, as a guest star, >><laugh>, you know, Hey, you know, season two, it's not a one and done it's continued coverage. We, we got the episodic, uh, cube flicks model going >>Here. Well, you know, congratulations, the, the coverage on this ecosystem around AWS has been impressive, right? I think you and I have talked a long time about AWS and the ecosystem building. It just continues to grow. And so the coverage you did last season, all the events of this season is, is pretty amazing from the data security to now marketing. So it's, it's great to >>Watch. And 12 years now, the cube been running. I remember 2013, when we first met you in the cube, we just left VMware just getting into the venture business. And we were just riffing the next 80. No one really kind of knew how big it would be. Um, but we were kinda riffing on. We kind of had a sense now it's happening. So now you start to see every vertical kind of explode with the right digital transformation and disruption where you see new incumbents. I mean, new Newton brands get replaced the incumbent old guard. And now in MarTech, it's ripe for, for disruption because web two has gone on to web 2.5, 3, 4, 5, um, cookies are going away. You've got more governance and privacy challenges. There's a slew of kind of ad tech baggage, but yet lots of new data opportunities. Jerry, this is a huge, uh, thing. What's your take on this whole MarTech cloud scale, uh, >>Market? I, I think, I think to your point, John, that first the trends are correct and the bad and the good or good old days, the battle days MarTech is really about your webpage. And then email right there. There's, there's the emails, the only channel and the webpage was only real estate and technology to care about fast forward, you know, 10 years you have webpages, mobile apps, VR experiences, car experiences, your, your, your Alexa home experiences. Let's not even get to web three web 18, whatever it is. Plus you got text messages, WhatsApp, messenger, email, still great, et cetera. So I think what we've seen is both, um, explosion and data, uh, explosion of channel. So sources of data have increases and the fruits of the data where you can reach your customers from text, email, phone calls, etcetera have exploded too. So the previous generation created big company responses, Equa, you know, that exact target that got acquired by Oracle or, or, um, Salesforce, and then companies like, um, you know, MailChimp that got acquired as well, but into it, you're seeing a new generation companies for this new stack. So I, I think it's exciting. >>Yeah. And you mentioned all those things about the different channels and stuff, but the key point is now the generation shifts going on, not just technical generation, uh, and platform and tools, it's the people they're younger. They don't do email. They have, you know, proton mail accounts, zillion Gmail accounts, just to get the freebie. Um, they're like, they're, they'll do subscriptions, but not a lot. So the generational piece on the human side is huge. Okay. And then you got the standards, bodies thrown away, things like cookies. Sure. So all this is makes it for a complicated, messy situation. Um, so out of this has to come a billion dollar startup in my mind, >>I, I think multiple billion dollars, but I think you're right in the sense that how we want engage with the company branch, either consumer brands or business brands, no one wants to pick a phone anymore. Right? Everybody wants to either chat or DM people on Twitter. So number one, the, the way we engage is different, both, um, where both, how like chat or phone, but where like mobile device, but also when it's the moment when we need to talk to a company or brand be it at the store, um, when I'm shopping in real life or in my car or at the airport, like we want to reach the brands, the brands wanna reach us at the point of decision, the point of support, the point of contact. And then you, you layer upon that the, the playing field, John of privacy security, right? All these data silos in the cloud, the, the, the, the game has changed and become even more complicated with the startup. So the startups are gonna win. Will do, you know, the collect, all the data, make us secure in private, but then reach your customers when and where they want and how they want it. >>So I gotta ask you, because you had a great podcast just this week, published and snowflake had their event going on the data cloud, there's a new kind of SAS platform vibe going on. You're starting to see it play out. Uh, and one of the things I, I noticed on your podcast with the president of Hashi Corp, who was on people should listen to that podcast. It's on gray matter, which is the Greylocks podcast, uh, plug for you guys. He mentioned he mentions the open source dynamic, right? Sure. And, and I like what he, things, he said, he said, software business has changed forever. It's my words. Now he said infrastructure, but I'm saying software in general, more broader infrastructure and software as a category is all open source. One game over no debate. Right. You agree? >>I, I think you said infrastructure specifically starts at open source, but I would say all open source is one more or less because open source is in every bit of software. Right? And so from your operating system to your car, to your mobile phone, open source, not necessarily as a business model or, or, or whatever, we can talk about that. But open source as a way to build software distribute, software consume software has one, right? It is everywhere. So regardless how you make money on it, how you build software, an open source community ha has >>One. Okay. So let's just agree. That's cool. I agree with that. Let's take it to the next level. I'm a company starting a company to sell to big companies who pay. I gotta have a proprietary advantage. There's gotta be a way. And there is, I know you've talked about it, but I have my opinion. There is needs to be a way to be proprietary in a way that allows for that growth, whether it's integration, it's not gonna be on software license or maybe support or new open source model. But how does startups in the MarTech this area in general, when they disrupt or change the category, they gotta get value creation going. What's your take on, on building. >>You can still build proprietary software on top of open source, right? So there's many companies out there, um, you know, in a company called rock set, they've heavily open source technology like Rock's DB under the hood, but they're running a cloud database. That's proprietary snowflake. You talk about them today. You know, it's not open source technology company, but they use open source software. I'm sure in the hoods, but then there's open source companies, data break. So let's not confus the two, you can still build proprietary software. There's just components of open source, wherever we go. So number one is you can still build proprietary IP. Number two, you can get proprietary data sources, right? So I think increasingly you're seeing companies fight. I call this systems intelligence, right, by getting proprietary data, to train your algorithms, to train your recommendations, to train your applications, you can still collect data, um, that other competitors don't have. >>And then it can use the data differently, right? The system of intelligence. And then when you apply the system intelligence to the end user, you can create value, right? And ultimately, especially marketing tech, the highest level, what we call the system of engagement, right? If, if the chat bot the mobile UI, the phone, the voice app, etcetera, if you own the system of engagement, be a slack, or be it, the operating system for a phone, you can also win. So still multiple levels to play John in multiple ways to build proprietary advantage. Um, just gotta own system record. Yeah. System intelligence, system engagement. Easy, right? Yeah. >>Oh, so easy. Well, the good news is the cloud scale and the CapEx funded there. I mean, look at Amazon, they've got a ton of open storage. You mentioned snowflake, but they're getting a proprietary value. P so I need to ask you MarTech in particular, that means it's a data business, which you, you pointed out and we agree. MarTech will be about the data of the workflows. How do you get those workflows what's changing and how these companies are gonna be building? What's your take on it? Because it's gonna be one of those things where it might be the innovation on a source of data, or how you handle two parties, ex handling encrypted data sets. I don't know. Maybe it's a special encryption tool, so we don't know what it is. What's your what's, what's your outlook on this area? >>I, I, I think that last point just said is super interesting, super genius. It's integration or multiple data sources. So I think either one, if it's a data business, do you have proprietary data? Um, one number two with the data you do have proprietary, not how do you enrich the data and do you enrich the data with, uh, a public data set or a party data set? So this could be cookies. It could be done in Brad street or zoom info information. How do you enrich the data? Number three, do you have machine learning models or some other IP that once you collected the data, enriched the data, you know, what do you do with the data? And then number four is once you have, um, you know, that model of the data, the customer or the business, what do you deal with it? Do you email, do you do a tax? >>Do you do a campaign? Do you upsell? Do you change the price dynamically in our customers? Do you serve a new content on your website? So I think that workflow to your point is you can start from the same place, what to do with the data in between and all the, on the out the side of this, this pipeline is where a MarTech company can have then. So like I said before, it was a website to an email go to website. You know, we have a cookie fill out a form. Yeah. I send you an email later. I think now you, you can't just do a website to email, it's a website plus mobile apps, plus, you know, in real world interaction to text message, chat, phone, call Twitter, a whatever, you know, it's >>Like, it's like, they're playing checkers in web two and you're talking 3d chess. <laugh>, I mean, there's a level, there's a huge gap between what's coming. And this is kind of interesting because now you mentioned, you know, uh, machine learning and data, and AI is gonna factor into all this. You mentioned, uh, you know, rock set. One of your portfolios has under the hood, you know, open source and then use proprietary data and cloud. Okay. That's a configuration, that's an architecture, right? So architecture will be important in terms of how companies posture in this market, cuz MarTech is ripe for innovation because it's based on these old technologies, but there's tons of workflows, but you gotta have the data. Right. And so if I have the best journey map from a client that goes to a website, but then they go and they do something in the organic or somewhere else. If I don't have that, what good is it? It's like a blind spot. >>Correct. So I think you're seeing folks with the data BS, snowflake or data bricks, or an Amazon that S three say, Hey, come to my data cloud. Right. Which, you know, Snowflake's advertising, Amazon will say the data cloud is S3 because all your data exists there anyway. So you just, you know, live on S3 data. Bricks will say, S3 is great, but only use Amazon tools use data bricks. Right. And then, but on top of that, but then you had our SaaS companies like Oracle, Salesforce, whoever, and say, you know, use our qua Marketo, exact target, you know, application as a system record. And so I think you're gonna have a battle between, do I just work my data in S3 or where my data exists or gonna work my data, some other application, like a Marketo Ella cloud Z target, um, or, you know, it could be a Twilio segment, right. Was combination. So you'll have this battle between these, these, these giants in the cloud, easy, the castles, right. Versus, uh, the, the, the, the contenders or the, or the challengers as we call >>'em. Well, great. Always chat with the other. We always talk about castles in the cloud, which is your work that you guys put out, just an update on. So check out greylock.com. They have castles on the cloud, which is a great thesis on and a map by the way ecosystem. So you guys do a really good job props to Jerry and the team over at Greylock. Um, okay. Now I gotta ask kind of like the VC private equity sure. Market question, you know, evaluations. Uh, first of all, I think it's a great time to do a startup. So it's a good time to be in the VC business. I think the next two years, you're gonna find some nice gems, but also you gotta have that cleansing period. You got a lot of overvaluation. So what happened with the markets? So there's gonna be a lot of M and a. So the question is what are some of the things that you see as challenges for product teams in particular that might have that killer answer in MarTech, or might not have the runway if there's no cash, um, how do people partner in this modern era, cuz scale's a big deal, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> you can measure everything. So you get the combination of a, a new kind of M and a market coming, a potential growth market for the right solution. Again, value's gotta be be there. What's your take on this market? >>I, I, I think you're right. Either you need runway, so cash to make it through, through this next, you know, two, three years, whatever you think the market Turmo is or two, you need scale, right? So if you're at a company of scale and you have enough data, you can probably succeed on your own. If not, if you're kind of in between or early to your point, either one focus, a narrower wedge, John, just like we say, just reduce the surface area. And next two years focus on solving one problem. Very, very well, or number two in this MarTech space, especially there's a lot of partnership and integration opportunities to create a complete solution together, to compete against kind of the incumbents. Right? So I think they're folks with the data, they're folks doing data, privacy, security, they're post focusing their workflow or marketing workflows. You're gonna see either one, um, some M and a, but I definitely can see a lot of Coopers in partnership. And so in the past, maybe you would say, I'm just raise another a hundred million dollars and do what you're doing today. You might say, look, instead of raising more money let's partner together or, or merge or find a solution. So I think people are gonna get creative. Yeah. Like said scarcity often is good. Yeah. I think forces a lot more focus and a lot more creativity. >>Yeah. That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up up. Cause I didn't think you were gonna go there. I was gonna ask that biz dev activity is going to be really fundamental because runway combined with the fact that, Hey, you know, if you know, get real or you're gonna go under is a real issue. So now people become friends. They're like, okay, if we partner, um, it's clearly a good way to go if you can get there. So what advice would you give companies? Um, even most experienced, uh, founders and operators. This is a different market, right? It's a different kind of velocity, obviously architectural data. You mentioned some of those key things. What's the posture to partner. What's your advice? What's the combat man manual to kind of compete in this new biz dev world where some it's a make or break time, either get the funding, get the customers, which is how you get funding or you get a biz dev deal where you combine forces, uh, go to market together or not. What's your advice? >>I, I think that the combat manual is either you're partnering for one or two things, either one technology or two customers or sometimes both. So it would say which partnerships, youre doing for technology EG solution completers. Like you have, you know, this puzzle piece, I have this puzzle piece data and data privacy and let's work together. Um, or number two is like, who can help you with customers? And that's either a, I, they can be channel for you or, or vice versa or can share customers and you can actually go to market together and find customers jointly. So ideally you're partner for one, if not the other, sometimes both. And just figure out where in your life cycle do you need? Um, friends. >>Yeah. Great. My final question, Jerry, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing your in insight as usual. Always. Awesome final question for the folks watching that are gonna be partnering and buying product and services from these startups. Um, there's a select few great ones here and obviously every other episode as well, and you've got a bunch you're investing in this, it's actually a good market for the ones that are lean companies that are lean and mean have value. And the cloud scale does provide that. So a lot of companies are getting it right, they're gonna break through. So they're clearly gonna be getting customers the buyer side, how should they be looking through the lens right now and looking at companies, what should they look for? Um, and they like to take chances with seeing that. So it's not so much, they gotta be vetted, but you know, how do they know the winners from the pretenders? >>You know, I, I think the customers are always smart. I think in the, in the, in the past in market market tech, especially they often had a budget to experiment with. I think you're looking now the customers, the buyer technologies are looking for a hard ROI, like a return on investment. And before think they might experiment more, but now they're saying, Hey, are you gonna help me save money or increase revenue or some hardcore metric that they care about? So I think, um, the startups that actually have a strong ROI, like save money or increased revenue and can like point empirically how they do that will, will, you know, rise to the top of, of the MarTech landscape. And customers will see that they're they're, the customers are smart, right? They're savvy buyers. They, they, they, they, they can smell good from bad and they're gonna see the strong >>ROI. Yeah. And the other thing too, I like to point out, I'd love to get your reaction real quick is a lot of the companies have DNA, any open source or they have some community track record where communities now, part of the vetting. I mean, are they real good people? >>Yeah. I, I think open stores, like you said, in the community in general, like especially all these communities that move on slack or discord or something else. Right. I think for sure, just going through all those forums, slack communities or discord communities, you can see what's a good product versus next versus bad. Don't go to like the other sites. These communities would tell you who's working. >>Well, we got a discord channel on the cube now had 14,000 members. Now it's down to six, losing people left and right. We need a moderator, um, to get on. If you know anyone on discord, anyone watching wants to volunteer to be the cube discord, moderator. Uh, we could use some help there. Love discord. Uh, Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. What's new at Greylock. What's some of the things happening. Give a quick plug for the firm. When you guys working on, I know there's been some cool things happening, new investments, people moving. >>Yeah. Look we're we're Greylock partners, seed series a firm. I focus at enterprise software. I have a team with me that also does consumer investing as well as crypto investing like all firms. So, but we're we're seed series a occasionally later stage growth. So if you're interested, uh, FA me@jkontwitterorjgreylock.com. Thank you, John. >>Great stuff, Jerry. Thanks for coming on. This is the Cube's presentation of the, a startup showcase. MarTech is the series this time, emerging cloud scale customer experience where the integration and the data matters. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the hottest cloud startups from the ADWS ecosystem. Um, John farrier, thanks for watching.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, good morning from Las Vegas. It's Lisa Martin and Paul Gillin here. We are on day three of AWS re:Invent. We started Monday night, we went all day yesterday, we are going all day today and all day tomorrow. The amount of content coming at you from theCUBE, great, interesting, fascinating conversations with AWS, its customers, its ecosystem partners is incredible. Paul, what's your take so far on re:Invent? We've been here two and a half days. >> Well, it's just a fire hose. Like I've said before, this morning's keynote was about was about ML, machine learning and AI, and I stopped counting at 15 new announcements during about a 90 minute keynote, it's just one thing after another. And that's the nature of re:Invent, you know? It's always a showcase for new stuff. And they talk about customers, you talk about customers, I love it when we have a chance to talk to customers on theCUBE as we are about to do. >> We are about to talk to one of the nation's leading digital banks, you know them well, Capital One. Please welcome, Lo Li, Managing Vice President of Customer Digital Experience and Payments. Thank you so much, Lo, for joining us. >> Why, thank you, I'm glad to be here. >> Talk a little bit about your role where it fits within the organization, what it encompasses? >> Sure, yeah. So, I lead the retail bank technology organization which is a form of, you know, we have teams that lead digital experiences for our consumers. We look after agent in-person experiences with their cafes in branches, our call centers and as well as of our MarTech and payments ecosystem. >> So you're new to Capital One, in the last less than a year, you know, we all know it, we love it, we know the tagline, what's in your wallet? I think we can all recite that. It's as I said in the opening, it's one of the nation's leading digital banks and technology is really core to its business strategy and delivering value to customers. What attracted you to Capital One and talk about it really as a digital bank that delivers all that value. >> Of course. Yeah, so, you know, I spent 20 years of my career in a digital space in retail, and fashion and hospitality. And that is what I love about IT and the industry that I'm in and what I do, which is bringing really great solutions and products to consumers and getting them excited about an experience and a brand. So I knew early on in my career I was attracted to really great brands and brands that wanted to innovate and disrupt the consumer space. So when Capital One gave me an opportunity, I couldn't be happier, right? This is an incredible bank, we have an incredible story, we're a young bank and yet we are very much on the leading edge of a digital bank experience. >> And you were in an interesting place because as we know retail banking is declining or at least bank branches are in decline. More and more people want to do their banking on their mobile apps or through their computers, particularly younger customers. And so you're having to manage all this, what are you doing? How are you tracking to these demographic changes accelerated by the pandemic and recreating the customer experience through multiple channels? >> Yeah, great question. We want to give our consumers an omnichannel experience irrespective of, you know, the few that still want to go into branches or perhaps they want to experience a cafe, and while there meet with one of our branch ambassadors to talk about their banking, we have consumers that want to go digital. So what we do is that we make sure that we're looking after the consumer holistically, irrespective of the channel. So whether they call into the call center because they need servicing or if they're physically present or they want to carry that on digitally, we make sure that we create super personalized custom experiences. We also work with a bunch of designers that are thinking through, you know, the life of a consumer now and their relationship to a bank. It is, to your point, it is no longer a branch, you know? That is a ubiquitous experience that we're by large knowing that we have to figure out and rethink. So, we're very lucky to have great designers that work with us and work on what is that experience that we want our consumers to have, from the pastries and the coffee, and the experience of being with an ambassador and how we can lead them through our iPads and digital experiences to continue to stay with us and for us to service them. >> You know, if we think about how much banking has changed especially in the last couple of years, when suddenly you couldn't get into a branch, even if you wanted to, it's amazing how we have this expectation that on my phone I can do any transaction I want in real time, I'm going to be able to see my balance, I can transfer money, I can make a payment. And we don't think about the technology on the back end but it's absolutely critical to powering that experience. >> Yeah. >> Talk about how you're doing that and is there customer feedback in that process? >> There is, but that's music to my ears by the way. The fact that you don't think about it tells me we're doing something really right, right? So first and foremost, we are super hypervigilant about security, that is top of mind, we are well managed. The cloud has enabled us to create these infrastructures that are highly secure, that are scalable and that allows us to really focus on innovation. So we use our mobile platform and our apps in that way, right? We know that this is a scalable, secure platform. We create really great products, we create very custom experiences for you that are relevant to you and your family and we create these digital products that are supposed to meet you where you are. >> But we certainly have, you know, this expectation that I'm going to get what I want, it's going to be relevant, it's going to be timely. If not, I'm going to pick up, not the phone, I'm going to go on social media and make a complaint. So from a brand reputation perspective, you guys, what you're doing is clearly going in the right direction. >> Yeah, yeah. Look, we take our bank voice and the voice of the customer extremely seriously. So, we have a really large infrastructure from a bank operations perspective. We have our bank voice agents that work with us that give us kind of really real-time feedback from our customers. You know, by the time you pick up the phone and call usually something has gone really wrong, right? So, we make sure that we stay lockstep with what our first level agents are hearing. Then we also look into our feedbacks, we have obviously ways to look into our mobile app. We look at all the reviews that we have and incorporate that into how we think about our product and how we invest and innovate on them. >> Before we turned on the cameras, you said an amazing thing. Capital One doesn't have any data centers anymore, doesn't have any mainframes anymore, it is fully in the cloud. Understanding that you weren't there in those old days but how does that change the way you think about new features, about technology, new technology developments for the customer when you don't have that legacy to drag along with you? >> It's incredible, right? Our cost efficiency, our production efficiency, how we think about going to the market now is really getting us to focus on the right parts of that product. We don't have to carry a lot of the technical debt, we don't carry that old infrastructure. So the way we develop, the way we design, the way we go to market is a lot faster than it ever was. >> Well, and the culture is there, the cultural mindset is there to be able to do that. I mean, if you think about who you compete with some of these institutions that have been around for a hundred years that also have to transform and digitize 'cause the customers expect it. That has to be a seamless process but their culture also has to be there because changing from being On-prem data centers to being completely in the cloud, it's a big change. >> Yeah, actually, you hit it, right? The cloud transformation is big, and hard and sticky. You got to move these workloads, you got to make 'em native, you got to deploy. But to your point, the harder part really is the culture, right? Because the cloud will then unleash productivity, it will unleash continuous improvement. It will bring product partners along the ride because they have to think differently about what they want to go to the market with, how they think about the cost of those units, how they think about cloud. So, you know, in my opinion, Capital One has done an incredible job bringing that entire, the entire organization along this cloud transformation including our culture, our processes, and our people. >> I know Capital One is proud of the work it's been doing in AI and machine learning. Can you talk about from the retail banking perspective, how is machine learning being applied to improve the customer experience? >> Yeah, well, you know, as you know, AI and machine learning is the heart of the bank, is the heart of Capital One. When we started in the early 90s, we were the only bank that was really trying to challenge how we use data to provide better products for our consumers, and that is ingrained in our DNA and everything that we do. So if you were to look at bank, we would start with, you know, from the time you are authenticating yourself, how we think about fraud and how do we capture bad actors, all the way to if you were to call into a call center, we use a lot of natural language processing models to make sure that we assess your sentiment, we give you the support that you need, and then of course, use that to learn more about how we service you. >> Interesting, I'm just wondering, do you think about Capital One as a technology company that does banking or a bank that is powered by technology? >> We are a technology company, and we happen to also have a bank. >> Lisa: I love that. What are some of the things that you've heard and seen at the show? Obviously, we're hearing numbers between 55 and 70,000 people here. It's crazy. And we're only getting a snapshot of that because here we are at Venetian Expo and the conference is going on all over the strip. But what are some of the things that you've heard from AWS that excite you about the partnership going forward? >> You know, I'll be honest, one of my happiest, proud moments, when we're talking about Lambda SnapStart yesterday, we actually, our team that is here today was part of the first beta of bringing in Lambda SnapStart. And we're super excited because it helps propel our serverless agenda. You know, we're continued to transform into the cloud. So, we have a lot of these partnership opportunities that, you know, make me super proud. >> Well follow up on serverless because to a lot of people, it's a concept that they don't really understand how to put it to practice. How is serverless a step forward? What has it enabled you to do that you couldn't otherwise do? >> Wow, a bunch. I think first and foremost, it helps us stay, you know, very well managed, security wise, right? It allows us to create automation and it takes away a lot of the heavy lifting that our engineers would have to do otherwise. And the byproduct of that is that we get to go focus on really fun, innovative ideas, and we get to go work on product development. We're taking a lot of the grit work of the management of the servers out of the engineer's hand and automating them. >> Banking, of course, one of the most regulated industries on the planet, has Cloud been able to help you in that respect? >> Yes. Yes it has. Look, we are in a regulated space which means everything we do has a ton of scrutiny, for the right reasons. So we actually built it into our design, so our design, our products, we design our platforms with security in mind, with the regulations in mind and make it where it's less of a thought, right? So, we obviously spend a lot of time from a risk posture helping our associates understand, really respecting the responsibility that we have to look after everybody's assets, right? Like it's, what a more incredible job than that? So, we spend a lot of time thinking about what is our risk posture, where is it, you know, from what you would imagine the regular scan vulnerabilities all the way to data protection. And now that we protect that data in Fly, like they're all things that is our number one job and we spend a ton of time focused on it. >> That's good, it's very complex but security is a topic we discuss regularly. We've seen the threat landscape change so dramatically in the last couple of years. Bad actors are getting far more sophisticated. They're leveraging the technology but when it comes to banking as Paul was talking about, from a regulations perspective, from an end customer perspective, we have this expectation that you're going to keep my data secure because nobody wants to be the next headline. >> Lo: Yes, that's right. That's right, and look, we are getting, we're getting smarter as well, right? So we are able to detect and monitor and go after the bad actors faster. We're doing it in a way that allows us configurability, it gives us time, it gives us speed, but at the same time we also work as a network, right? So a lot of our banks, we, you know, in some ways share a lot of this information to make sure that we're all going after a common enemy. >> Capital One recently launched a software company, Capital One Software, which is a relatively unusual move by a financial services organization. How has that affected the thinking at the company about what the company is and what other opportunities there might be outside of pure banking? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Capital One Software is a very exciting new line of business. I think the team that is there is doing some really incredible, innovative work. But you know what's really interesting is they were talking about our new product SlingShot, it was born out of our needs, right? We knew that we needed to have better governance around our data. We created really great tools and it was very obvious that there was a commercial applicability there. And that is how we will continue to operate, right? As a bank, we're all in the cloud, we're all in in the cloud. It will give us the ability to start sharing some of these best practices. And I think the best is yet to come, I think we got some really good stuff in the pipeline. >> Lisa: Anything you can share in the-- >> No. >> Lisa: No? Tight lips. >> Tight lips. >> Excellent, well, last couple of questions. What's the main theme here? When people walk into the Venetian Expo and they see Capital One next to all these tech companies, what's the main theme that Capital One wants to get across to the greater community? >> Yeah, look, our mission is to change banking for good, it always has been our mission. We're very fortunate to be in a position to be tech innovators, and we're fortunate to disrupt, and that's what I want people to get out of it. >> Excellent, my last question for you, kind of continuing on this theme. If you had, you were going to have the opportunity to create new branding and it's going to go in the cafes and it's going to be like a little billboard inside about Capital One being a technology company that does banking. What do you think that that billboard, that sign would say? >> I think I'm going to stick with the change banking for good. I mean, that really is at the heart of our mission. >> Paul: It's a nice double message too, yeah. >> Yeah, with technology, with disruption, ultimately that's where our hearts and minds are at. >> Awesome. Lo, it's been great to have you on the program. Thank you for sharing what you're doing at Capital One, how you're working with AWS and also emerging technologies like AI and ML to really create a seamless digital customer experience. We really appreciate your time and your insights. >> Thank you. >> All right, for our guest and for Paul Gillin I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live emerging and enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE presentation of the AWS startup showcase, market MarTech, emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Talking about the data analytics, all the news and all the hot stories. I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. And today we're excited to be joined by Rachel Ostler, VP of product at Heap, Heap.io. Here to talk about from what, to why the future of digital insights. Great to see you, thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me, John. Thanks for having me back. >> Well, we had a great conversation prior to the event here, a lot going on, you guys had acquired Auryc in an acquisition. You kind of teased that out last time. Talk about this, the news here, and why is it important? And first give a little setup on Heap and then the acquisition with Auryc. >> Yeah. So heap is a digital insights platform. So as you mentioned, it's all about analytics and so Heap really excels at helping you understand what your users and customers are doing in your digital application at scale. So when it comes to Auryc, what we really saw was a broken workflow. Maybe, I would even call it a broken market. Where a lot of customers had an analytics tool like Heap. So they're using Heap on one hand to figure out what is happening at scale with their users. But on the other hand, they were also using, like a session replay tool separately, to look at individual sessions and see exactly what was happening. And no one was very effective at using these tools together. They didn't connect at all. And so as a result, neither one of them could really be fully leveraged. And so with this acquisition, we're able to put these two tools together, so that users can both understand the what at scale, and then really see the why, immediately together in one place. >> You know, that I love that word why, because there's always that, you know, that famous motivational video on the internet, "you got to know your why", you know, it's very a motivational thing, but now you're getting more practicality. What and why is the, is the lens you want, right? So, I totally see that. And again, you can teased that out in our last interview we did. But I want to understand what's under the covers, under the acquisition. What was the big thesis behind it? Why the joint forces? What does this all mean? Why is this so important to understand this new, what and why and the acquisition specifically? >> Yeah, so let me give you example of a couple used cases, that's really helpful for understanding this. So imagine that you are a product manager or a, maybe a growth marketer, but you're someone who owns a digital experience. And what you're trying to do, of course, is make that digital experience amazing for your users so that they get value and that may mean that they're using it more, it may mean that new features are easily discoverable, that you can upsell things on your own. There's all sorts of different things that that may mean, but it's all about making it easy to use, discoverable, understandable, and as self-service as possible too. And so most of these digital builders, we call 'em digital builders sometimes. They are trying to figure out when the application is not working the way that it should be working, where people are getting stuck, where they're not getting the value and figure out how to fix that. And so, one really great used case is, I just want to understand in mass, like, let's say I have a flow, where are people dropping off? Right, so I see that I have a four step funnel and between step three and four people are dropping off. Heap is great for getting very detailed on exactly what action they're taking, where they're dropping off. But then the second you find what that action is, quantitatively, you want to watch it, you want to see what they did exactly before it. You want to see what they did after it. You want to understand why they're getting stuck. What they're confused at, are they mouthing over two things, like you kind of want to watch their session. And so what this acquisition allows us to do, is to put those things together seamlessly, you find the point in friction, you watch a bunch of examples, very easily. In the past, this would take you at least hours, if you could do it at all. And then in other used cases, the other direction. So there's the kind of, I think of it as the max to the min, and then there's the other direction as well. Like you have the, or maybe it's the macro to micro. You have the micro to macro, which is you have one user that had a problem. Maybe they send in a support ticket. Well, you can validate the problem. You can watch it in the session, but then you want to know, did this only happen to them? Did this happen to a lot of users? And this is really worth fixing, because all these customers are having the same problem. That's the micro to macro flow that you can do as well. >> Yeah. That's like, that's like the quantitative qualitative, the what and the why. I truly see the value there and I liked the way you explained that, good call out. The question I have for you, because a lot of people have these tools. "I got someone who does that." "I got someone over here that does the quantitative." "I don't need to have one company do it, or do I?" So the question I have for you, what does having a single partner or vendor, providing both the quantitative and the qualitative nails mean for your customers? >> So it's all because now it's immediate. So today with the two tools being separate, you may find something quantitatively. But then to, then to find the sessions that you want to watch that are relevant to that quantitative data point is very difficult. At least it takes hours to do so. And a lot of times people just give up and they don't bother. The other way is also true, you can watch sessions, you can watch as many sessions as you want, you can spend hours doing it, you may never find anything of interest, right? So it just ends up being something that users don't do. And actually we've interviewed a lot of customers, they have a lot of guilt about this. A lot of product managers feel like they should be spending all this time, but they just don't have the time to spend. And so it not only brings them together, but it brings them together with immediacy. So you can immediately find the issue, find exactly where it is and watch it. And this is a big deal, because, if you think about, I guess, like today's economic conditions, you don't have a lot of money to waste. You don't have a lot of time to waste. You have to be very impactful with what you're doing and with your spending of development resources. >> Yeah. And totally, and I think one of the things that immediacy is key, because it allows you to connect dots faster. And we have the aha moments all the time. If you miss that, the consequences can be quantified in a bad product experience and lost customers. So, totally see that. Zooming out now, I want to get your thoughts on this, cause you're bringing, we're going down this road of essentially every company is digital now, right? So digitization, digital transformation. What do you want to call it? Data is digital. This video is an experience. It's also data as well. You're talking, we're going to share this and people are going to experience that. So every website that's kind of old school is now becoming essentially a digital native application or eCommerce platform. All the things that were once preserved for the big guys, the hyper-scalers and the categories, the big budgets, now are coming down to every company. Every company is a digital company. What challenges do they have to transition from? I got a website, I got a marketing team. Now I got to look like a world class, product, eCommerce, multifaceted, application with developers, with change, with agility? >> Well, so I think that last thing you said is a really important part of it, the agility. So, these products, when you're going from a, just a website to a product, they're a lot more complex. Right? And so maybe I can give an example. We have a customer, it's an insurance company. So they have this online workflow. And if you can imagine signing up for insurance online, it's a pretty long complicated workflow. I mean, Hey, better to do it online than to have to call someone and wait on, you know, on the phone. And so it's a good experience, but it's still fraught with like opportunities of people getting stuck and never coming back. And so one of the things that Heap allowed this customer to do was figure out something that wasn't working in their workflow. And so if you think about traditional analytics tools, typically what you're doing is you're writing tracking code and you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to track this funnel, this process." And so maybe it has, you know, five different forms or pages that you have to go through. And so what you're doing when you track it is you say, did you submit the first one? Did you submit the second one? Did you submit the third one? So you know, like where they're falling off. You know where they're falling off, but you don't know why, you don't know which thing got them stuck because each one of these pages has multiple inputs and it has maybe multiple steps that you need to do. And so you're completely blind to exactly what's happening. Well, it turned out because Heap collects all this data, that on one of these pages where users were dropping off, it was because they were clicking on a FAQ, there was a link to a FAQ, and because this was a big company, the FAQ took them to a completely different application. Didn't know how to get back from there and they just lost people. And imagine if you are doing this with traditional means today, right? You don't have any visibility into what's happening on that page, you just know that they fell off. You might think about what do I do to fix this? How do I make this flow work better? And you might come up with a bunch of ideas. One of your ideas could be, let's break it into multiple pages. Maybe there's too much stuff on this page. One of your ideas may have been, let's try a FAQ. They're getting stuck, let's give them some more help. That would be a very bad idea, right? Because that was actually the reason why they were leaving and never coming back. So, the point I'm making is that, if you don't know exactly where people are getting stuck and you can't see exactly what is happening, then you're going to make a lot of very bad decisions. You're going to waste a lot of resources, trying things that make no sense. It is hard enough as a digital builder and all the product managers and growth marketers and marketers out there can attest to this, it's hard enough when you know exactly what the problem is to figure out a good solution. Right? That's still hard. But if you don't know the problem, it's impossible. >> Okay, so let's just level up, the bumper sticker now for the challenges are what? Decision making, what's the, stack rank the top three challenges from that. So it's being agile, right? So being very fast, because you're competing with a lot of companies right now. It's about making really good decisions and driving impact, right? So you have to have all the data that you need. You have to have the, the specific information about what's going on. Cause if you don't have it, you're going to decide to invest in things and you're not going to drive the impact that you want. >> So now you got the acquisition of Auryc and Auryc and you have the, this visibility to the customers that are building, investing, you mentioned, okay. As they invest, whether it's the digital product or new technology in R and D, what feedback have you guys seen from these investments, from these customers, what results have come out of it? Could you share any specific answers to the problems and challenges you have outlined, because you know, there's growth hackers could be failing cause of stupid little product mistakes that could have been avoided in the feedback, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, where can you, where are these challenges addressed and what are some of the results? >> Yeah, so, what we've seen with our customers is that when they are applying this data and doing this analysis on say workflows or goals that they're trying to accomplish, they've been able to move the needle quite a bit. And so, whether it is, you know, increasing conversion rates or whether it is making sure that they don't have, you know, drop off of trial signups or making sure that their customers are more engaged than before, when they know exactly where they're failing, it is much easier to make an investment and move the needle. >> Awesome. Well, let's move on to the next big topic, which I love, it's about data science and data engineering. You guys are a data company and I want to ask you specifically, how Heap uniquely is positioned to help companies succeed, where in the old big tech world, they're tightening the ropes on secure cookies, privacy, data sharing. At the same time, there's been an explosion in cloud scale data opportunities and new technologies. So it seems like a new level of, capability, is going to replace the old cookies, privacy and data sharing, which seem to be constricting or going away. How do you, what's your reaction to that? Can you share how Heap fits into this next generation and the current situation going on with the cookies and this privacy stuff. >> Yep, so it is really important in this world to be collecting data compliantly, right? And so what that means is, you don't want to be reliant on third party cookies. You want to be reliant on just first party information. You want to make sure that you don't collect any PII. Heap is built to do that from the ground up. We by default will not collect information, like what do people put into forms, right? Because that's a obvious source of PII. The other thing is that, there's just so much data. So you kind of alluded to this, with this idea of data science. So first of all, you're collecting data compliantly, you're making sure that you have all the data of what your user actions are doing, compliantly, but then it's so much data that it like, how do you know where to start? Right? You want to know, you want to get to that specific point that users are dropping off, but there's so many different options out there. And so that's where Heap is applying data science, to automatically find those points of friction and automatically surface them to users, so that you don't have to guess and check and constantly guess at what the problem is, but you can see it in the product surface right for you. >> You know, Rachel, that's a great point. I want to call that out because I think a lot of companies don't underestimate, they may underestimate what you said earlier, capturing in compliance way means, you're opting in to say, not to get the data, to unwind it later, figure it out. You're capturing it in a compliant way, which actually reduces the risk and operational technical debt you might have to deploy to get it fixed on compliance. Okay, that's one thing, I love that. I want to make sure people understand that value. That's a huge value, especially for people that don't have huge teams and diverse platforms or other data sources. The other thing you mentioned is owning their own data. And that first party data is a strategic advantage, mainly around personalization and targeted customer interaction. So the question is, with the new data, I own the data, you got the comp- capture with compliance. How do you do personalization and targeted customer interactions, at the same time while being compliant? It just seems, it seems like compliance is restrictive and kind of forecloses value, but open means you can personalization and targeted interactions. How do you guys connect the dots there by being compliant, but yet being valuable on the personalization and targeted? >> Well, it all depends on how the customer is managing their information, but imagine that you have a logged in user, well, you know, who the logged in user is, right? And so all we really need is an ID. Doesn't have, we don't need to know any of the user information. We just need an ID and then we can serve up the information about like, what have they done, if they've done these three actions, maybe that means that this particular offer would be interested to them. And so that information is available within Heap, for our customers to use it as they want to, with their users. >> So you're saying you can enable companies to own their data, be compliant and then manage it end to end from a privacy standpoint. >> Yes. >> That's got to be a top seller right there. >> Well, it's not just a top seller, it's a necessity. >> It's a must have. I mean, think about it. I mean, what are people, what are the, what are people who don't do this? What do they face? What's the alternative? If you don't keep, get the Heap going immediately, what's the alternative? I'm going through logs, I got to have to get request to forget my data. All these things are all going on, right? Is, what's the consequence of not doing this? >> Well, there's a couple consequences. So one is, and I kind of alluded to it earlier that, you're just, you're blind to what your users are doing, which means that you're making investments that may not make sense, right? So you can, you can decide to add all the cool features in the world, but if the customers don't perceive them as being valuable or don't find them or don't understand them, it doesn't, it doesn't serve your business. And so, this is one of like the rule number one of being a product manager, is you're trying to balance what your customers need, with what is also good for your business. And both of those have to be in place. So that's basically where you are, is that you'll be making investments that just won't be hitting the mark and you won't be moving the needle. And as I mentioned, it's more important now in this economic climate than ever to make sure that the investments you're making are targeted and impactful. >> Yeah and I think the other thing to point out, is that's a big backlash against the whole, Facebook, you're the product, you're getting used, the users being used for product, but you're, you guys have a way to make that happen in a way that's safe for the user. >> Yes. Safe and compliant. So look, we're all about making sure that we certainly don't get our customers into trouble and we recommend that they follow all compliance rules, because the last thing you want to be is on the, on the wrong side of a compliance officer. >> Well, there's also the user satisfaction problem of, and the fines. So a lot going on there, great product. I got to ask you real quick before we kind of wrap up here. What's the reaction been to the acquisition? Quantitative, qualitative. What's been the vibe? What are some, what are people saying about it? >> We've got a lot of interest. So, I mentioned earlier that this is really a broken workflow in the market. And when users see the two products working together, they just love it because they have not been able to leverage them being separate before. And so it just makes it so much easier for these digital builders to figure out, what do I invest in because they know exactly where people are having trouble. So it's been really great, we've had a lot of reach outs already asking us how they can use it, try it, not quite available yet. So it's going to be available later this summer, but great, great response so far. >> Awesome. Well, I love the opportunity. Love the conversation, I have to ask you now, looking forward, what does the future look like for companies taking advantage of your platform and tool? What can they expect in terms of R and D investments, area moves you're making? You're the head of product, you get the keys to the kingdom. What's the future look like? What's coming next? >> Yeah, so other than pulling the qual and the quant together, you actually hinted at it earlier when you're asking me about data science, but continuing to automate as much of the analysis as we can. So, first of all, analysis, analytics, it should be easy for everyone. So we're continue to invest in making it easy, but part of making it easy is, like we can automate analysis. We can, we can see that your website has a login page on it and build a funnel for you automatically. So that's some of the stuff that we're working on, is how do we both automate getting up to speed and getting that initial analysis done easily, without any work. And then also, how do we automate more complex analysis? So you have, typically a lot of companies have a data science team and they end up doing a lot of analysis, it's a little bit more complex. I'm not saying data science teams will go away, they will be around forever. There's tons of very complex analysis that they're probably not even getting time to do. We're going to start chipping away at that, so we can help product managers do more and more of that self-service and then free up the data science team to do even more interesting things. >> I really like how you use the word product managers, product builders, digital builders, because while I got you, I want to get your thought on this, because it's a real industry shift. You're talking about it directly here, about websites going to eCommerce, CMOs, a C-suite, they generally observe that websites are old technology, but not going away, because the next level abstraction builds on top of it. What's the new capabilities because for the CMOs and the C-suites and the product folks out there, they're not building webpages, they're building applications. So what is it about this new world that's different from the old web architecture? How would you talk to a CMO or a leader? And to, when they ask what's this new opportunity to take my website, cause maybe it's not enough traffic. People are consuming out in the organic, what's this new expectation and how, what does a new product manager environment look like, if it's not the web, so to speak? >> Well, there's a couple things. So one is, and you alluded to it a bit, like the websites are also getting more complex and you need to start thinking of your website as a product. Now it's, it may not be the product that you sell, but it is, well for eCommerce it's the place that you get access to the product, for B2B SaaS, it is the window to the product. It's a place where you can learn about the product. And you need to think about, not just like, what pieces of content are being used, but you need to understand the user flow, through the application. So that's how it's a lot more like a product. >> Rachel, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE here for this presentation, final word, put a plugin for the company. What are you guys up to? What are you looking for? Take a minute to explain kind of that, what's going on. How do people contact you with a great value proposition? Put a plugin for the company. >> Yeah, well, if you want to up level your product experience or website experience, you want to be able to drive impact quickly, try Heap. You can go to Heap.io, you can try it for free. We have a free trial, we have a free product even. And yeah, and then if you have any questions, you want to talk to a live person, you can do that too, at sales@Heap.io. >> Rachel, thanks so much. Customer-scale experiences with the cloud house league. This is the season two, episode three of the ongoing series. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of the AWS Startup Showcase. Season two, episode three. This is about MarTech, emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is our ongoing series that you know and love hopefully that feature a great number of AWS ecosystem partners. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Got a great guest here from Branch. Michelle Lerner joins me, the senior director of business development. She's going to be talking about Branch but also about one of your favorite brands, Peet's, yep, the coffee place, and how they supercharged loyalty and app adoption with Branch. Michelle, it's great to have you on the program. >> Yeah. Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. >> Tell us a little bit about Branch, what you guys do for the modern mobile marketer. >> Yeah, absolutely. So you can think about Branch as a mobile linking platform. So what that means is we offer a seamless deep linking experience and insightful campaign measurement across every single marketing channel and platform on mobile. We exist so that we can break down walled gardens to help our customers engage with their customers in the most optimal way across any device and from every marketing channel. Our products are specifically designed to help create an amazing user experience, but also provide full picture holistic downstream measurement across any paid, owned, and earned channels so that brands can actually see what's working. So what that really means is that we make it really easy to scale our links across every single marketing channel, which then route the users to the right place at any device through even past install so that they can get to the context that they expect for a seamless experience. We then provide that cross channel analytics back to the brand so that they could see what's working and they can make better business decisions. So kind of summing it up, our industry leading mobile linking actually powers those deep links, also supports that measurement so that brands can build a sophisticated experience that actually delight their users but also improve their metrics and conversion rates. >> Those two things that you said are key. We expected to be delighted with whatever experience we're having and we also want to make sure, and obviously, the brands want to make sure that they're doing that but also that from an attribution perspective, from a campaign conversion perspective, that they can really understand the right tactics and the right strategic elements that are driving those conversions. That's been a challenge for marketers for a long time. Speaking of challenges, we've all been living through significant challenges. There's no way to say it nicely. The last two years, every industry completely affected by the pandemic talk. We're going to talk about Peet's Coffee. And I want to understand some of the challenges that you saw in the quick service restaurant or QSR industry at large. Talk to me about those industry challenges and then we'll dig into the Peet's story. >> Yeah, absolutely. So obviously the pandemic changed so much in our lives whether it's going to work or commuting or taking our kids to school or even getting our morning coffee. So when you think about Peet's, specifically within the QSR industry, they knew that they needed to innovate in order to make sure that they could provide their customers with their daily cups of coffee in a really safe and effective way. So they thought really quickly on their feet, they engaged us at Branch to help launch their order ahead messaging across their online and offline channels. They really wanted to maintain their commitment to an excellent customer experience but in a way that obviously would be safe and effective. >> That was one of the things that I missed the very most in the very beginning of the pandemic was going to my local Peet's. I missed that experience. Talk me about, you mentioned the online and offline, I'm very familiar with the online as an app user, mobile app user, but what were some of the challenges that they were looking to Branch to resolve on the offline experiences? People were queuing outside or for those folks that were they trying to get folks to convert to using the mobile app that maybe weren't users already? What was that online and offline experience? What were some of the challenges they were looking to resolve? >> Yeah, absolutely. The modern marketer is really both, like you said, online and offline, there is a heavy focus within the app and Peet's kind of wanted to bridge those two by pushing users into the app to provide a better experience there. So what they ended up doing was they used our deep linking capabilities to seamlessly route their customers to their loyalty program and their rewards catalog and other menu offerings within the app so that they could actually get things done in real time, but also in real time was the ability to then measure across those different campaigns so that they had visibility, Peet's, into kind of the way that they could optimize that campaign performance but also still give that great experience to their users. And they actually saw higher loyalty adoption, order values, and attributed purchases when they were able to kind of see in real time where these users were converting. But another thing that we're actually seeing across the board and Peet's did a great job of this was leveraging Branch power QR codes where we are seeing like the rebirth of the QR code. They're back, they're here to stay. They actually used that across multiple channels. So they used it with their in-store signage. You might have even seen it on their to go cups, coffee cards that were handed out by baristas. They were all encouraging customers to go order ahead using the Peet's coffee app. But that was kind of just the beginning for them. The creation of unique links for those QR codes actually spread for them to create Branch links across everything from emails to ads on Instagram. So before long, most of Peet's retail marketing were actually Branch links just because of the ease of creation and reliability, but more so again, going back to that customer experience, it really provided that good experience for the customers to make sure that they were getting within the mobile app so that they can take action and order their coffee. Another way that Branch kind of bridges the different platforms is actually between mobile web and app. Peet used Branch Journeys and that's a product of ours. It's a way that they can convert their mobile web users into app users. So they used deferred deep links with the ultimate goal of then converting those users into high value app users. So the Peet's team actually tested different creative and interstitials across the mobile site which would then place those users into the key pages, like either the homepage or the store locator, or the menu pages within the app. So that also helped them kind of build up not just their mobile app order online but also their delivery business so they could hire new trials of seasonal beverages. They could pair them with a free delivery offering. So they knew that they were able to leverage that at scale across multiple initiatives. >> I love those kinds of stories where it's kind of like a land and expand where there was obviously a global massive problem. They saw that recognized our customers are still going to be is demanding. Maybe if not more than they were before with I want my coffee, I want it now, you mentioned real time. I think one of the things we learned during the pandemic is access to realtime data isn't a nice to have anymore. We expect it as consumers even in our business lives, but the ability to be able to measure, course correct, but then see, wow, this is driving average order value up, we're getting more folks using our mobile app, maybe using delivery. Let's expand the usage of Branch across what we're doing in marketing can really help transform our marketing organization and a business at the brand level. >> Absolutely. And it also helps predict that brand loyalty. Because like you said, we, as consumers expect that that brands are going to kind of follow us where we are in our life cycle as consumers and if you don't do that, then you're going to be left in the dust unfortunately. >> I think one of the memories that will always stick with me, Michelle, during the last couple years is that first cup of Peet's that I didn't have to make at home myself. Just finally getting the courage to go back in, use the app, go in there, but oh man, that was probably the best taste of coffee I probably will ever have. You mentioned some of the products, you mentioned Journeys, and that allows them to do AB testing, looking at different CTAs, being able to kind of course correct and adjust campaigns in real time. >> Yeah, absolutely. So Journeys, what it does is it's basically a banner or a full page interstitial that is populated on the mobile web. So if you go to let's say Peets.com, you could get served as a user, either different creative or depending on where you are, location wise, you could be in the store, maybe there's a promotion. So it's triggered by all these different targeting capabilities. And so what that does is it takes me as a user. I can click that and go into the app where, like we said before, we have higher order value, higher lifetime value of a customer. And all my credit card information is saved. It just makes it so much more seamless for me to convert as a user within the app. And obviously Peet's likes that as well because then their conversion rates are actually higher. There's also kind of fun ways to play around with it. So if I am already a loyal customer and I have the app, you probably would target different creative for me than you would for someone who doesn't have the app. So you could say, hey, download our app, get $5 off of your next mobile order. Things like that you could play around with and you can see really does help increase that loyalty. But actually they were able to take, they kind of are experimenting with the geotargeted journeys in different key markets with different Peet's. And actually it was helping ultimately get their reinstalls growing. So for customers who maybe had the app before but needed to reinstall it because now there's such a bigger focus, they saw it both on the acquisition and the re-engagement side as well. >> So Branch has been pretty transformative, not in my estimation to Peet's marketing, but to Peet's as a business I'm hearing absolutely customer loyalty, revenue obviously impacted, brand loyalty, brand reputation. These are things that really kind of boil up to the top of the organization. So we're not just talking about benefits to the marketing and the sales folks. This is the overall massive business outcomes that you guys are enabling organizations like Peet's to generate. >> Yeah, definitely. And that's kind of what we tell our customers when they come to Branch. We want them to think about what their overall business objectives are versus if you think just campaign by campaign, okay, that's fine. But ultimately what are we trying to achieve? How could we help the bottom line? And then how can we also kind of help integrate with other mobile marketing technology or the modern tech stack that they're using? How do we integrate into that and actually provide not just a seamless experience for their end user, but with their marketing orgs, their product orgs, whoever's kind of touching the business as well? >> Have you noticed along those lines in the last couple of years as things like customer delight, seamless experience, the ability to translate, if I start on my iPad and I go to my laptop and then I finish a transaction on my phone, have you noticed your customer conversations increasing up to the C-suite level? Is this much more of a broad organizational objective around we've got to make sure that we have a really strong digital user experience? >> Yeah, absolutely. Like we were talking about before, it really does help affect the bottom line when you're providing a great experience with Branch being a mobile linking platform, our links just work. We outperform everybody else in the space and it might sound like really simple, okay, a link is working getting me from point A to point B, but doing it the right way and being consistent actually will increase performance over time of all these campaigns. So it's just an addition to providing that experience, you're seeing those key business results every single time. >> Talk about attribution for a minute because I've been in marketing for a long time in the tech industry. And that's always one of the challenges is we want to know what lever did the customer pull that converted them from opportunity to a lead to whatnot? Talk about the ability for Branch from an attribution perspective to really tell those marketers and the organization exactly, tactically, down to the tactical level, this is what's working. This is what's not working. Even if it's a color combination for example. That science is critical. >> Yeah, absolutely. Because we are able to cover the entire marketing life cycle of that they're trying to reach their customers. We cover off on email. We have mobile web to app. We have organic, we have search. No matter what you can look at that purview under a Branch lens. So we are just providing not just the accurate attribution down to the post-install, what happens after that, but also a more holistic view of everything that's happening on mobile. So then you can stitch all that together and really look at which ones are actually performing so you could see exactly which campaigns attributed directly to what amount of spend or which campaigns helped us understand the true lifetime long term value of customers, let's say in this case who ordered delivery or pickup. So to the kind of customer persona, it really helped. And also they actually were able to see Peet's because of our attribution, they saw actually a four and a half time increase in attributed purchases at the peak of the pandemic. And even since then, they're still seeing a three times increase in monthly attributed purchases. So because they actually have the view across everything that they're doing, we're able to provide that insight. >> That insight is so critical these days, like we mentioned earlier talking about real time data. Well we expect the experiences to be real time. And I expect that when I go back on the app they're going to know what I ordered last time. Maybe I want that again. Maybe I want to be able to change that, but I want them to know enough about me in a non creepy way. Give me that seamless experience that I'm expecting because of course that drives me to come back over and over again and spend way too much money there which I'm guilty of, guilty as charged. >> Coffee is totally fine. >> Right? Thank you. Thank you so much for validating that. I appreciate that. But talk to me about, as we are kind of wrapping things up here, the brick and mortars, it was such a challenge globally, especially the mom and pops to be able to convert quickly and figure out how do we reach a digital audience? How do we get our customers to be loyal? What's some of the advice that you have for the brick and mortars or those quick service restaurants like Peet's who've been navigating this the last couple years now here we are in this interesting semi post pandemic I would like to believe world? >> Yeah, we're getting there slowly but surely, but yeah, it's really important for them to adapt as we kind of move into this semi post pandemic world, we're kind of in the middle of like a hybrid online, offline, are we in stores, are we ordering online? These brand and customer relationships are super complex. I think the mobile app is just one part of that. Customers really shouldn't have any problems getting from the content or item they're looking for, no matter if they're in the store, if they're in the app, if they're on the desktop, if they're checking their email, if they're perusing TikTok, the best customer relationships really are omnichannel in nature. So what I would say, the need for providing the stellar customer experience isn't going to go away. It's actually really key. Whether it's driving users from their mobile properties to the app, providing a great in-store experience, like the QR codes, customers are expecting a lot more than they did before the pandemic. So they're not really seeing these brand touch points as little silos. They're seeing one brand. So it really should feel like one brand you should speak to the customers as if it's one brand across every single device, channel, and platform, and really unify that experience for them. >> Absolutely. That's going to be I think for so many different brands, whether it's a brick and mortar QSR, that's going to be one of the defining competitive advantages. If they can give their end users a single brand experience across channels, and you mentioned TikTok, those channels are only going to grow. As are I think or expectations. I don't think anybody's going to go back to wanting less than they did two years ago, right? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Well this has been great, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me, talking about Branch, what you guys are doing, mobile linking platform, mobile measurement platform, the deep links, what you were able to do with Peet's Coffee, a beloved brand since the 60s and so many others. We appreciate your insights, your time and the story that you shared. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. I hope you have a great rest of your day. >> You as well. For Michelle Lerner, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the AWS Showcase. Keep it right here. More great content coming up from theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. Topic is MarTech: Emerging Cloud-Scale Experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Talk about their value proposition and their company and all the good stuff that's going on. I'm your host, John Furrier. And today we're excited to be joined by Manyam Mallela who's the co-founder and head of AI at Blueshift. Great to have you on here to talk about the Blueshift-Intelligent Customer Engagement, Made Simple. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you, John. Thank you for having me. >> So last time we did our intro video. We put it out in the web. Got great feedback. One of the things that we talked about, which is resonating out there in the viral Twitter sphere and in the thought leadership circles is this concept that you mentioned called 10X marketer. That idea that you have a solution that can provide 10X value. Kind of a riff on the 10X engineer in the DevOps cloud world. What does it mean? And how does someone get there? >> Yeah, fantastic. I think that's a great way to start our discussion. I think a lot of organizations, especially as of this current economic environment are looking to say, I have limited resources, limited budgets, how do I actually achieve digital and customer engagement that helps move the needle for my key metrics, whether it's average revenue per user, lifetime value of the user and frequent interactions. Above all, the more frequently a brand is able to interact with their customers, the better they understand them, the better they can actually engage them. And that usually leads to long term good outcomes for both customer and the brand and the organizations. So the way I see 10X marketer is that you need to have tools that give you that speed and agility without hindering your ability to activate any of the campaigns or experience that you want to create. And I see the roadblocks usually for many organizations, is that kind of threefold. One is your data silos. Usually data that is on your sites, does not talk to your app data, does not talk to your social data, does not talk to your CRM data and so forth. So how do I break those silos? The second is channel silos. I actually have customers who are only engaging on email or some are on email and mobile apps. Some are on email and mobile apps and maybe the OTT TV in a Roku or one of the connected TV experiences, or maybe in the future, another Web3 environments. How do I actually break those channel silos so that I get a comprehensive view of the customer and my marketing team can engage with all of them in respect to the channel? So break the channel silos. And the last part, what I call like some of the little talked about is I call the inside silo, which is that, not only do you need to have the data, but you also have to have a common language to share and talk about within your organizations. What are we learning from our customers? What do we translate our learning and insight on this common data platform or fabric into an action? And that requires the shared language of how do I actually know my customers and what do I do with them? Like either the inside silo as well. I think a lot of times organizations do get into this habit like each one speaks their own language, but they don't actually are talking the common language of what did we actually know about the real customer there. >> Yeah, and I think that's a great conversation because there's two, when you hear 10X marketer or 10X conversations, it implies a couple things. One is you're breaking an old way and bringing in something new. And the new is a force multiplier, in this case, 10X marketer. But this is the cloud scale so marketing executives, chiefs, staffs, chiefs of staffs of CMOs and their staffs. They want to get that scale. So marketing at scale is now the table stakes. Now budget constraints are there as well. So you're starting to see, okay, I need to do more with less. Now the big question comes up is ROI. So I want to have AI. I want to have all these force multipliers. What do I got to do with the old? How do I handle that? How do I bring the new in and operationalize it? And if that's the case, I'm making a change. So I have to ask you, what's your view on the ROI of AI marketing, because this is a key component 'cause you've got scale factor here. You've got to force multiplier opportunity. How do you get that ROI on the table? >> I think that as you rightly said, it's table stakes. And I think the ROI of AI marketing starts with one very key simple premise that today some of the tools allow you to do things one at a time. So I can actually say, "can I run this campaign today?" And you can scramble your team, hustle your way, get everybody involved and run that campaign. And then tomorrow I'd say like, Hey, I looked at the results. Can I do this again? And they're like, oh, we just asked for all of us to get that done. How do I do it tomorrow? How do I do it next week? How do I do it for every single week for the rest of the year? That's where I think the AI marketing is essentially taking your insight, taking your creativity, and creating a platform and a tool that allows you to run this every single day. And that's agility at scale. That is not only a scale of the customer base, but scale across time. And that AI-based automation is the key ROI piece for a lot of AI marketing practitioners. So Forrester, for example, did a comprehensive total economic impact study with our customers. And what they found out was actually the 781% ROI that they reported in that particular report is based on three key factors. One is being able to do experiences that are intelligent at scale, day in and day out. So do your targeting, do your recommendations. Not just one day, but do it every single day. And don't hold back yourself on being able to do that. >> I think they got to get the return. They got to get the sales too. This is the numbers. >> That's right. They actually have real dollars, real numbers attached to it. They have a calculator. You can actually go in and plug your own numbers and get what you might expect from your existing customer base. The second is that once you have a unified platform like ours, the 10X marketer that we're talking about is actually able to do more. It's sometimes actually, it's kind of counterintuitive to think that a smaller team does more. But in reality, what we have seen, that is the case. When you actually have the right tools, the smaller teams actually achieve more. And that's the redundant operations, conflicting insights that go away into something more coherent and comprehensive. And that's the second insight that they found. And the third is just having reporting and all of the things in one place means that you can amplify it. You can amplify it across your paid media channels. You can amplify it across your promotions programs and other partnerships that you're running. >> That's the key thing about platforms that people don't understand is that you have a platform and it enables a lot of value. In this case, force multiplier value. It enables more value than you pay for it. But the key is it enables customers to do things without a line of code, meaning it's a platform. They're innovating on top of it. And that's, I think, where the ROI comes in and this leads me where the next question is. I wanted to ask you is, not to throw a wet blanket on the MarTech industry, but I got to think of when I hear marketing automation, I kind of think old. I think old, inadequate antiquated technologies. I think email blasting and just some boring stuff that just gets siloed or it's bespoke from something else. Are marketing automation tools created equal? Does something like, what you guys are doing with SmartHub? Change that, and can you just talk about that 'cause it's not going to go away. It's just another level that's going to be abstracted away under the coverage. >> Yeah, great question. Certainly, email marketing has been practiced for two or three decades now and in some form or another. I think we went from essentially what people call list-based marketing. I have a list, let me keep blasting the same message to everybody and then hopefully something will come out of it. A little bit more of saying, then they can, okay, maybe now I have CRM database and can I do database marketing, which they will call like, "Hey, Hi John. Hi Manyam", which is the first name. And that's all they think will get the customer excited about because you'll call them by name, which is certainly helpful, but not enough. I think now what we call like, the new age that we live in is that we call it graph-based marketing. And the way we materialize that is that every single user is interacting with a brand with their offerings. So that this interaction graph that's happening across millions of customers, across thousands of content articles, videos, shows, products, items, and that graph actually has much richer knowledge of what the customer wants than the first names or list-based ones. So I think the next evolution of marketing automation, even though the industry has been there a while, there is a step change in what can actually be done at scale. And which is taking that interaction graph and making that a part of the experience for the customer, and that's what we enable. That's why we do think of that as a big step change from how people are being practicing list-based marketing. And within that, certainly there is a relation of curve as to how people approach AI marketing and they are in a different spectrum. Some people are still at list-based marketing. Some people are database marketing. And hopefully will move them to this new interaction graph-based marketing. >> Yeah and I think the context is key. I like how you bring up the graph angle on this because the graph databases imply there's a lot of different optionality around what's happened contextually both over time and currently and it adds to it. Makes it smarter. It's not just siloed, just one dimensional. It feels like it's got a lot there. This is clearly I'm a big fan of and I think this is the way to go. As you get more personalization, you get more data. Graphic database makes a lot of sense. So I have to ask you, this is a really cutting edge value proposition, who are the primary buyers and users in an organization that you guys are working with? >> Yeah, great question. So we typically have CMO organizations approaching us with this problem and they usually talk to their CIO organizations, their counterparts, and the chief information officers have been investing in data fabrics, data lakes, data warehouses for the better part of last decade or two, and have some very cutting edge technology that goes into organizing all this data. But that doesn't still solve the problem of how do I take this data and make a meaningful, relevant, authentic experience for the customer. That's the CMO problem. And CMO are now challenge with creating product level experience with every interaction and that's where we coming. So the CMO are the buyers of our SmartHub CDP platform. And we're looking for consolidating hundreds of tools that they had in the past and making that one or two channel marketers. Actually, the 10X marketer that we talk about. And you need the right tool on top of your data lakes and data warehouses to be able to do that. So CMO are also the real drivers of using this technology. >> I think that also place the ROI equation around ROI and having that unified platform. Great call out there. I got to ask you the question here 'cause this comes up a lot and when I hear you talking, I think, okay, all the great stuff you guys have there. But if I'm a company, I want to make my core competencies mine. I don't really want to outsource or buy something that's going to be core to my business. But at the same time as market shifts, the business changes. And sometimes people don't even know what business they're in at the end of the day. And as it gets more complicated too, by the way. So the question comes up with companies and I can see this clearly, do I buy it? Do I build it? When it comes to AI because that's a core competency. Wait a minute, AI. I'm going to maybe buy some chatbot technology. That's not really AI, but it feels like AI, but I'm a company, I want to buy it or build it. That's a choice. What do you see there? 'Cause you guys have a very comprehensive platform. It's hard to replicate, imitates, inimitable. So what's your customers doing with respect buy and build? And where do they get the core competency? What do they get to have as a core competency? >> Fantastic. I think certainly, AI as it applies to at the organization level, I've seen this at my previous organization that I was part of, and there will be product and financial applications that are using AI for the service of that organization. So we do see, depending upon the size of the organization having in-house AI and data science teams. They are focused on these long term problems that they are doing as part of their product itself. Adjacent to that, the CMO organization gets some resources, but not certainly a lot. I think the CMO organization is usually challenged with the task, but not given the hundred people data science and engineering team to be able to go solve that. So what we see among our customer base is that they need agile platform to do most of the things that they need to do on a day to day basis, but augmented with what our in-house data science they have. So we are an extensible platform. What we have seen is that half of our customers use us solely for the AI needs. The other half certainly uses both AI modules that we provide and are actually augmented with things that they've already built. And we do not have a fight in that ring. But we do acknowledge and we do provide the right hooks for getting the data out of our system and bringing their AI back into our system. And we think that at the end of the day, if you want agility for the CMO, there should not be any barriers. >> It's like they're in the data business and that's the focus. So I think with what I hear you saying is that with your technology and platform, you're enabling to get them to be in the data business as fast as possible. >> That's right. >> Versus algorithm business, which they could add to over time. >> Certainly they could add to. But I think the bulk of competencies for the CMO are on the creative side. And certainly wrangling with data pipelines day in and day out and wondering what actually happened to a pipeline in the middle of the night is not probably what they would want to focus on. >> Not their core confidence. Yeah, I got that. >> That's right. >> You can do all the heavy lifting. I love that. I got to ask you on the Blueshift side on customer experience consumption. how can someone experience the product before buying? Is there a trial or POC? What's the scale and scope of operationalizing and getting the Blueshift value proposition in them? >> Yeah, great. So we actually recently released a fantastic way to experience our product. So if you go to our website, there's only one call-to-action saying, explore Blueshift. And if you click on that, without asking, anything other than your business email address, you're shown the full product. You're given a guided tour of all the possibilities. So you can actually experience what your marketing team would be doing in the product. And they call it Project Rover. We launched it very recently and we are seeing fantastic reception to that. I think a lot of times, as you said, there is that question mark of like, I have a marketing team that is already doing X, Y, Z. Now you are asking me to implement Blueshift. How would they actually experience the product? And now they can go in and experience the product. It's a great way to get the gist of the product in 10 clicks. Much more than going through any number of videos or articles. I think people really want to say, let me do those 10 clicks. And I know what impression that I can get from platform. So we do think that's a great way to experience the product and it's easily available from the main website. >> It's in the value proposition. It isn't always a straight line. And you got that technology. And I got to ask from between your experience with the customers that you're talking to, prospects, and customers, where do you see yourself winning deals on Customer Engagement, Made Simple because the word customer engagement's been around for a while, and it's become, I won't say cliche, but there's been different generational evolutions of technology that made that possible. Obviously, we're living in an era of high velocity Omni-Channel, a lot of data, the graph databases you mentioned are in there, big part of it. Where are you winning deals? Where are customers pain points where you are solving that specifically? >> Yeah, great question. So the organizations that come to us usually have one of the dimensions of either they have offering complexity, which is what catalog of content or videos or items do they offer to the customers. And on the data complexity on the other side is to what the scale of customer base that I usually target. And that problem has not gone away. I think the customer engagement, even though has been around for a while, the problem of engaging those customers at scale hasn't gone away and it only is getting harder and harder and organizations that have, especially on what we call the business-to-consumer side where the bulk of what marketing organizations in a B2C segments are doing. I have tens to millions of customers and how do I engage them day in and day out. And I think that all that problem is only getting harder because consumer preferences keeps shifting all the time. >> And where's your sweet spot for your customer? What size? Can you just share the target organization? Is it medium enterprise, large B2C, B2B2C? What's the focus area? >> Yeah, great question. So we have seen like startups that are in Silicon Valley. I have now half a million monthly active users, how do I actually engage them to customers and clients like LendingTree and PayPal and Discovery and BBC who have been in the business for multiple decades, have tens of millions of customers that they're engaging with. So that's kind of our sweet spot. We are certainly not maybe for small shop with maybe a hundred plus customers. But as you reach the scale of tens of thousands of customers, you start seeing this problem. And then you start to look out for solutions that are beyond, especially list-based marketing and email blast. >> So as the scale, you can dial up and down, but you have to have some enough scale to get the data pattern. >> That's right. >> If I can connect the dots there. >> I would probably say, looking at a hundred thousand or more monthly active customer base, and then you're trying to ramp up your own growth based on what you're learning and to engage those customers. >> It's like a bulldozer. You need the heavy equipment. Great conversation. For the last minute we have here Manyam, give you a plug for the company. What's going on? What are you guys doing? What's new? Give some success stories, your latest achievements. Take a minute to give a plug for the company. >> Yeah, great. We have been recognized by Deloitte as the fastest growth startup two years in a row and continuing to be on that streak. We have released currently integrations with AWS partners and Snowflake partners and data lake partners that allow implementing Blueshift a much streamlined experience with bidirectional integrations. We have now hundred plus data connectors and data integrations in our system and that takes care of many of our needs. And now, I think organizations that have been budget constraint and are trying to achieve a lot with a small team are actually going to look at these solutions and say, "Can I get there?" and "Can I become that 10X marketing organization? And as you have said, agility at scale is very, very hard to achieve. Being able to take your marketing team and achieve 10X requires the right platform and the right solution. We are ready for it. >> And every company's in the data business that's the asset. You guys make that sing for them. It's good stuff. Love the 10X. Love the scale. Manyam Mallela, thanks for coming on. Co-founder, Head of AI at Blueshift. This is the AWS Startup Showcase season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. >> Thank you, John. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. The theme, this showcase is MarTech, the emerging cloud scale customer experiences. Season two of episode three, the ongoing series covering the startups, the hot startups, talking about analytics, data, all things MarTech. I'm your host, John Furrier, here joined by Christian Wiklund, founder and CEO of unitQ here, talk about harnessing the power of user feedback to empower marketing. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you so much, John. Happy to be here. >> In these new shifts in the market, when you got cloud scale, open source software is completely changing the software business. We know that. There's no longer a software category. It's cloud, integration, data. That's the new normal. That's the new category, right? So as companies are building their products, and want to do a good job, it used to be, you send out surveys, you try to get the product market fit. And if you were smart, you got it right the third, fourth, 10th time. If you were lucky, like some companies, you get it right the first time. But the holy grail is to get it right the first time. And now, this new data acquisition opportunities that you guys in the middle of that can tap customers or prospects or end users to get data before things are shipped, or built, or to iterate on products. This is the customer feedback loop or data, voice of the customer journey. It's a gold mine. And it's you guys, it's your secret weapon. Take us through what this is about now. I mean, it's not just surveys. What's different? >> So yeah, if we go back to why are we building unitQ? Which is we want to build a quality company. Which is basically, how do we enable other companies to build higher quality experiences by tapping into all of the existing data assets? And the one we are in particularly excited about is user feedback. So me and my co-founder, Nik, and we're doing now the second company together. We spent 14 years. So we're like an old married couple. We accept each other, and we don't fight anymore, which is great. We did a consumer company called Skout, which was sold five years ago. And Skout was kind of early in the whole mobile first. I guess, we were actually mobile first company. And when we launched this one, we immediately had the entire world as our marketplace, right? Like any modern company. We launch a product, we have support for many languages. It's multiple platforms. We have Android, iOS, web, big screens, small screens, and that brings some complexities as it relates to staying on top of the quality of the experience because how do I test everything? >> John: Yeah. >> Pre-production. How do I make sure that our Polish Android users are having a good day? And we found at Skout, personally, like I could discover million dollar bugs by just drinking coffee and reading feedback. And we're like, "Well, there's got to be a better way to actually harness the end user feedback. That they are leaving in so many different places." So, you know what, what unitQ does is that we basically aggregate all different sources of user feedback, which can be app store reviews, Reddit posts, Tweets, comments on your Facebook ads. It can be better Business Bureau Reports. We don't like to get to many of those, of course. But really, anything on the public domain that mentions or refers to your product, we want to ingest that data in this machine, and then all the private sources. So you probably have a support system deployed, a Zendesk, or an Intercom. You might have a chatbot like an Ada, or and so forth. And your end user is going to leave a lot of feedback there as well. So we take all of these channels, plug it into the machine, and then we're able to take this qualitative data. Which and I actually think like, when an end user leaves a piece of feedback, it's an act of love. They took time out of the day, and they're going to tell you, "Hey, this is not working for me," or, "Hey, this is working for me," and they're giving you feedback. But how do we package these very messy, multi-channel, multiple languages, all over the place data? How can we distill it into something that's quantifiable? Because I want to be able to monitor these different signals. So I want to turn user feedback into time series. 'Cause with time series, I can now treat this the same way as Datadog treats machine logs. I want to be able to see anomalies, and I want to know when something breaks. So what we do here is that we break down your data in something called quality monitors, which is basically machine learning models that can aggregate the same type of feedback data in this very fine grained and discrete buckets. And we deploy up to a thousand of these quality monitors per product. And so we can get down to the root cause. Let's say, passive reset link is not working. And it's in that root cause, the granularity that we see that companies take action on the data. And I think historically, there has been like the workflow between marketing and support, and engineering and product has been a bit broken. They've been siloed from a data perspective. They've been siloed from a workflow perspective, where support will get a bunch of tickets around some issue in production. And they're trained to copy and paste some examples, and throw it over the wall, file a Jira ticket, and then they don't know what happens. So what we see with the platform we built is that these teams are able to rally around the single source of troop or like, yes, passive recent link seems to have broken. This is not a user error. It's not a fix later, or I can't reproduce. We're looking at the data, and yes, something broke. We need to fix it. >> I mean, the data silos a huge issue. Different channels, omnichannel. Now, there's more and more channels that people are talking in. So that's huge. I want to get to that. But also, you said that it's a labor of love to leave a comment or a feedback. But also, I remember from my early days, breaking into the business at IBM and Hewlett-Packard, where I worked. People who complain are the most loyal customers, if you service them. So it's complaints. >> Christian: Yeah. >> It's leaving feedback. And then, there's also reading between the lines with app errors or potentially what's going on under the covers that people may not be complaining about, but they're leaving maybe gesture data or some sort of digital trail. >> Yeah. >> So this is the confluence of the multitude of data sources. And then you got the siloed locations. >> Siloed locations. >> It's complicated problem. >> It's very complicated. And when you think about, so I started, I came to Bay Area in 2005. My dream was to be a quant analyst on Wall Street, and I ended up in QA at VMware. So I started at VMware in Palo Alto, and didn't have a driver's license. I had to bike around, which was super exciting. And we were shipping box software, right? This was literally a box with a DVD that's been burned, and if that DVD had bugs in it, guess what it'll be very costly to then have to ship out, and everything. So I love the VMware example because the test cycles were long and brutal. It was like a six month deal to get through all these different cases, and they couldn't be any bugs. But then as the industry moved into the cloud, CI/CD, ship at will. And if you look at the modern company, you'll have at least 20 plus integrations into your product. Analytics, add that's the case, authentication, that's the case, and so forth. And these integrations, they morph, and they break. And you have connectivity issues. Is your product working as well on Caltrain, when you're driving up and down, versus wifi? You have language specific bugs that happen. Android is also quite a fragmented market. The binary may not perform as well on that device, or is that device. So how do we make sure that we test everything before we ship? The answer is, we can't. There's no company today that can test everything before the ship. In particular, in consumer. And the epiphany we had at our last company, Skout, was that, "Hey, wait a minute. The end user, they're testing every configuration." They're sitting on the latest device, the oldest device. They're sitting on Japanese language, on Swedish language. >> John: Yeah. >> They are in different code paths because our product executed differently, depending on if you were a paid user, or a freemium user, or if you were certain demographical data. There's so many ways that you would have to test. And PagerDuty actually had a study they came out with recently, where they said 51% of all end user impacting issues are discovered first by the end user, when they serve with a bunch of customers. And again, like the cool part is, they will tell you what's not working. So now, how do we tap into that? >> Yeah. >> So what I'd like to say is, "Hey, your end user is like your ultimate test group, and unitQ is the layer that converts them into your extended test team." Now, the signals they're producing, it's making it through to the different teams in the organization. >> I think that's the script that you guys are flipping. If I could just interject. Because to me, when I hear you talking, I hear, "Okay, you're letting the customers be an input into the product development process." And there's many different pipelines of that development. And that could be whether you're iterating, or geography, releases, all kinds of different pipelines to get to the market. But in the old days, it was like just customer satisfaction. Complain in a call center. >> Christian: Yeah. >> Or I'm complaining, how do I get support? Nothing made itself into the product improvement, except for slow moving, waterfall-based processes. And then, maybe six months later, a small tweak could be improved. >> Yes. >> Here, you're taking direct input from collective intelligence. Okay. >> Is that have input and on timing is very important here, right? So how do you know if the product is working as it should in all these different flavors and configurations right now? How do you know if it's working well? And how do you know if you're improving or not improving over time? And I think the industry, what can we look at, as far as when it relates to quality? So I can look at star ratings, right? So what's the star rating in the app store? Well, star ratings, that's an average over time. So that's something that you may have a lot of issues in production today, and you're going to get dinged on star ratings over the next few months. And then, it brings down the score. NPS is another one, where we're not going to run NPS surveys every day. We're going to run it once a quarter, maybe once a month, if we're really, really aggressive. That's also a snapshot in time. And we need to have the finger on the pulse of product quality today. I need to know if this release is good or not good. I need to know if anything broke. And I think that real time aspect, what we see as stuff sort of bubbles up the stack, and not into production, we see up to a 50% reduction in time to fix these end user impacting issues. And I think, we also need to appreciate when someone takes time out of the day to write an app review, or email support, or write that Reddit post, it's pretty serious. It's not going to be like, "Oh, I don't like the shade of blue on this button." It's going to be something like, "I got double billed," or "Hey, someone took over my account," or, "I can't reset my password anymore. The CAPTCHA, I'm solving it, but I can't get through to the next phase." And we see a lot of these trajectory impacting bugs and quality issues in these work, these flows in the product that you're not testing every day. So if you work at Snapchat, your employees probably going to use Snapchat every day. Are they going to sign up every day? No. Are they going to do passive reset every day? No. And these things are very hard to instrument, lower in the stack. >> Yeah, I think this is, and again, back to these big problems. It's smoke before fire, and you're essentially seeing it early with your process. Can you give an example of how this new focus or new mindset of user feedback data can help customers increase their experience? Can you give some examples, 'cause folks watching and be like, "Okay, I love this value. Sell me on this idea, I'm sold. Okay, I want to tap into my prospects, and my customers, my end users to help me improve my product." 'Cause again, we can measure everything now with data. >> Yeah. We can measure everything. we can even measure quality these days. So when we started this company, I went out to talk to a bunch of friends, who are entrepreneurs, and VCs, and board members, and I asked them this very simple question. So in your board meetings, or on all hands, how do you talk about quality of the product? Do you have a metric? And everyone said, no. Okay. So are you data driven company? Yes, we're very data driven. >> John: Yeah. Go data driven. >> But you're not really sure if quality, how do you compare against competition? Are you doing as good as them, worse, better? Are you improving over time, and how do you measure it? And they're like, "Well, it's kind of like a blind spot of the company." And then you ask, "Well, do you think quality of experience is important?" And they say, "Yeah." "Well, why?" "Well, top of fund and growth. Higher quality products going to spread faster organically, we're going to make better store ratings. We're going to have the storefronts going to look better." And of course, more importantly, they said the different conversion cycles in the product box itself. That if you have bugs and friction, or an interface that's hard to use, then the inputs, the signups, it's not going to convert as well. So you're going to get dinged on retention, engagement, conversion to paid, and so forth. And that's what we've seen with the companies we work with. It is that poor quality acts as a filter function for the entire business, if you're a product led company. So if you think about product led company, where the product is really the centerpiece. And if it performs really, really well, then it allows you to hire more engineers, you can spend more on marketing. Everything is fed by this product at them in the middle, and then quality can make that thing perform worse or better. And we developed a metric actually called the unitQ Score. So if you go to our website, unitq.com, we have indexed the 5,000 largest apps in the world. And we're able to then, on a daily basis, update the score. Because the score is not something you do once a month or once a quarter. It's something that changes continuously. So now, you can get a score between zero and 100. If you get the score 100, that means that our AI doesn't find any quality issues reported in that data set. And if your score is 90, that means that 10% will be a quality issue. So now you can do a lot of fun stuff. You can start benchmarking against competition. So you can see, "Well, I'm Spotify. How do I rank against Deezer, or SoundCloud, or others in my space?" And what we've seen is that as the score goes up, we see this real big impact on KPI, such as conversion, organic growth, retention, ultimately, revenue, right? And so that was very satisfying for us, when we launched it. quality actually still really, really matters. >> Yeah. >> And I think we all agree at test, but how do we make a science out of it? And that's so what we've done. And when we were very lucky early on to get some incredible brands that we work with. So Pinterest is a big customer of ours. We have Spotify. We just signed new bank, Chime. So like we even signed BetterHelp recently, and the world's largest Bible app. So when you look at the types of businesses that we work with, it's truly a universal, very broad field, where if you have a digital exhaust or feedback, I can guarantee you, there are insights in there that are being neglected. >> John: So Chris, I got to. >> So these manual workflows. Yeah, please go ahead. >> I got to ask you, because this is a really great example of this new shift, right? The new shift of leveraging data, flipping the script. Everything's flipping the script here, right? >> Yeah. >> So you're talking about, what the value proposition is? "Hey, board example's a good one. How do you measure quality? There's no KPI for that." So it's almost category creating in its own way. In that, this net new things, it's okay to be new, it's just new. So the question is, if I'm a customer, I buy it. I can see my product teams engaging with this. I can see how it can changes my marketing, and customer experience teams. How do I operationalize this? Okay. So what do I do? So do I reorganize my marketing team? So take me through the impact to the customer that you're seeing. What are they resonating towards? Obviously, getting that data is key, and that's holy gray, we all know that. But what do I got to do to change my environment? What's my operationalization piece of it? >> Yeah, and that's one of the coolest parts I think, and that is, let's start with your user base. We're not going to ask your users to ask your users to do something differently. They're already producing this data every day. They are tweeting about it. They're putting in app produce. They're emailing support. They're engaging with your support chatbot. They're already doing it. And every day that you're not leveraging that data, the data that was produced today is less valuable tomorrow. And in 30 days, I would argue, it's probably useless. >> John: Unless it's same guy commenting. >> Yeah. (Christian and John laughing) The first, we need to make everyone understand. Well, yeah, the data is there, and we don't need to do anything differently with the end user. And then, what we do is we ask the customer to tell us, "Where should we listen in the public domain? So do you want the Reddit post, the Trustpilot? What channels should we listen to?" And then, our machine basically starts ingesting that data. So we have integration with all these different sites. And then, to get access to private data, it'll be, if you're on Zendesk, you have to issue a Zendesk token, right? So you don't need any engineering hours, except your IT person will have to grant us access to the data source. And then, when we go live. We basically build up this taxonomy with the customers. So we don't we don't want to try and impose our view of the world, of how do you describe the product with these buckets, these quality monitors? So we work with the company to then build out this taxonomy. So it's almost like a bespoke solution that we can bootstrap with previous work we've done, where you don't have these very, very fine buckets of where stuff could go wrong. And then what we do is there are different ways to hook this into the workflow. So one is just to use our products. It's a SaaS product as anything else. So you log in, and you can then get this overview of how is quality trending in different markets, on different platforms, different languages, and what is impacting them? What is driving this unitQ Score that's not good enough? And all of these different signals, we can then hook into Jira for instance. We have a Jira integration. We have a PagerDuty integration. We can wake up engineers if certain things break. We also tag tickets in your support system, which is actually quite cool. Where, let's say, you have 200 people, who wrote into support, saying, "I got double billed on Android." It turns out, there are some bugs that double billed them. Well, now we can tag all of these users in Zendesk, and then the support team can then reach out to that segment of users and say, "Hey, we heard that you had this bug with double billing. We're so sorry. We're working on it." And then when we push fix, we can then email the same group again, and maybe give them a little gift card or something, for the thank you. So you can have, even big companies can have that small company experience. So, so it's groups that use us, like at Pinterest, we have 800 accounts. So it's really through marketing has vested interest because they want to know what is impacting the end user. Because brand and product, the lines are basically gone, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So if the product is not working, then my spend into this machine is going to be less efficient. The reputation of our company is going to be worse. And the challenge for marketers before unitQ was, how do I engage with engineering and product? I'm dealing with anecdotal data, and my own experience of like, "Hey, I've never seen these type of complaints before. I think something is going on." >> John: Yeah. >> And then engineering will be like, "Ah, you know, well, I have 5,000 bugs in Jira. Why does this one matter? When did it start? Is this a growing issue?" >> John: You have to replicate the problem, right? >> Replicate it then. >> And then it goes on and on and on. >> And a lot of times, reproducing bugs, it's really hard because it works on my device. Because you don't sit on that device that it happened on. >> Yup. >> So now, when marketing can come with indisputable data, and say, "Hey, something broke here." And we see the same with support. Product engineering, of course, for them, we talk about, "Hey, listen, you you've invested a lot in observability of your stack, haven't you?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah." "So you have a Datadog in the bottom?" "Absolutely." "And you have an APP D on the client?" "Absolutely." "Well, what about the last mile? How the product manifests itself? Shouldn't you monitor that as well using machines?" They're like, "Yeah, that'd be really cool." (John laughs) And we see this. There's no way to instrument everything, lowering the stack to capture these bugs that leak out. So it resonates really well there. And even for the engineers who's going to fix it. >> Yeah. >> I call it like empathy data. >> Yup. >> Where I get assigned a bug to fix. Well, now, I can read all the feedback. I can actually see, and I can see the feedback coming in. >> Yeah. >> Oh, there's users out there, suffering from this bug. And then when I fix it and I deploy the fix, and I see the trend go down to zero, and then I can celebrate it. So that whole feedback loop is (indistinct). >> And that's real time. It's usually missed too. This is the power of user feedback. You guys got a great product, unitQ. Great to have you on. Founder and CEO, Christian Wiklund. Thanks for coming on and sharing, and showcase. >> Thank you, John. For the last 30 seconds, the minute we have left, put a plug in for the company. What are you guys looking for? Give a quick pitch for the company, real quick, for the folks out there. Looking for more people, funding status, number of employees. Give a quick plug. >> Yes. So we raised our A Round from Google, and then we raised our B from Excel that we closed late last year. So we're not raising money. We are hiring across go-to-markets, engineering. And we love to work with people, who are passionate about quality and data. We're always, of course, looking for customers, who are interested in upping their game. And hey, listen, competing with features is really hard because you can copy features very quickly. Competing with content. Content is commodity. You're going to get the same movies more or less on all these different providers. And competing on price, we're not willing to do. You're going to pay 10 bucks a month for music. So how do you compete today? And if your competitor has a better fine tuned piano than your competitor will have better efficiencies, and they're going to retain customers and users better. And you don't want to lose on quality because it is actually a deterministic and fixable problem. So yeah, come talk to us if you want to up the game there. >> Great stuff. The iteration lean startup model, some say took craft out of building the product. But this is now bringing the craftsmanship into the product cycle, when you can get that data from customers and users. >> Yeah. >> Who are going to be happy that you fixed it, that you're listening. >> Yeah. >> And that the product got better. So it's a flywheel of loyalty, quality, brand, all off you can figure it out. It's the holy grail. >> I think it is. It's a gold mine. And every day you're not leveraging this assets, your use of feedback that's there, is a missed opportunity. >> Christian, thanks so much for coming on. Congratulations to you and your startup. You guys back together. The band is back together, up into the right, doing well. >> Yeah. We we'll check in with you later. Thanks for coming on this showcase. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. Appreciate it very much. >> Okay. AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode three, the ongoing series. This one's about MarTech, cloud experiences are scaling. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of the AWS startup showcase. This is season two, episode three of our ongoing series featuring AWS and its big ecosystem of partners. This particular season is focused on MarTech, emerging cloud scale customer experiences. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and I'm pleased to be joined by James Fang, the VP of product marketing at mparticle. James, welcome to the program. Great to have you on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Tell us a little bit about mparticle, what is it that you guys do? >> Sure, so we're mparticle, we were founded in 2013, and essentially we are a customer data platform. What we do is we help brands collect and organize their data. And their data could be coming from web apps, mobile apps, existing data sources like data warehouses, data lakes, et cetera. And we help them help them organize it in a way where they're able to activate that data, whether it's to analyze it further, to gather insights or to target them with relevant messaging, relevant offers. >> What were some of the gaps in the market back then as you mentioned 2013, or even now, that mparticle is really resolving so that customers can really maximize the value of their customer's data. >> Yeah. So the idea of data has actually been around for a while, and you may have heard the buzzword 360 degree view of the customer. The problem is no one has really been actually been able to, to achieve it. And it's actually, some of the leading analysts have called it a myth. Like it's a forever ending kind of cycle. But where we've kind of gone is, first of all customer expectations have really just inflated over the years, right? And part of that was accelerated due to COVID, and the transformation we saw in the last two years, right. Everyone used to, you know, have maybe a digital footprint, as complimentary perhaps to their physical footprint. Nowadays brands are thinking digital first, for obvious reasons. And the data landscape has gotten a lot more complex, right? Brands have multiple experiences, on different screens, right? And, but from the consumer perspective, they want a complete end to end experience, no matter how you're engaging with the brand. And in order to, for a brand to deliver that experience they have to know, how the customers interacted before in each of those channels, and be able to respond in as real time as possible, to those experiences. >> So I can start an interaction on my iPad, maybe carry it through or continue it on my laptop, go to my phone. And you're right, as a, as a consumer, I want the experience across all of those different media to be seamless, to be the same, to be relevant. You talk about the customer 360, as a marketer I know that term well. It's something that so many companies use, interesting that you point out that it's really been, largely until companies like mparticle, a myth. It's one of those things though, that everybody wants to achieve. Whether we're talking about healthcare organization, a retailer, to be able to know everything about a customer so that they can deliver what's increasingly demanded that personalized, relevant experience. How does mparticle fill some of the gaps that have been there in customer 360? And do you say, Hey, we actually deliver a customer 360. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, so the reason it's been a myth is for the most part, data has been- exists either in silos, or it's kind of locked behind this black box that the central data engineering team or sometimes traditionally referred to as IT, has control over, right? So brands are collecting all sorts of data. They have really smart people working on and analyzing it. You know, being able to run data science models, predictive models on it, but the, the marketers and the people who want to draw insights on it are asking how do I get it in, in my hands? So I can use that data for relevant targeting messaging. And that's exactly what mparticle does. We democratize access to that data, by making it accessible in the very tools that the actual business users are are working in. And we do that in real time, you don't have to wait for days to get access to data. And the marketers can even self-service, they're able to for example, build audiences or build computed insights, such as, you know, average order value of a customer within the tool themselves. The other main, the other main thing that mparticle does, is we ensure the quality of that data. We know that activation is only as as good, when you can trust that data, right? When there's no mismatching, you know, first name last names, identities that are duplicated. And so we put a lot of effort, not only in the identity resolution component of our product but also being able to ensure that the consistency of that data when it's being collected meets the standard that you need. >> So give us a, a picture, kind of a topology of a, of a customer data platform. And what are some of the key components that it contains, then I kind of want to get into some of the use cases. >> Yeah. So at, at a core, a lot of customer data platforms look similar. They're responsible first of all for the collection of data, right? And again, that could be from web mobile sources, as well as existing data sources, as well as third party apps, right? For example, you may have e-commerce data in a Shopify, right. Or you may have, you know, a computer model from a, from a warehouse. And then the next thing is to kind of organize it somehow, right? And the most common way to do that is to unify it, using identity resolution into this idea of customer profiles, right. So I can look up everything that Lisa or James has done, their whole historical record. And then the third thing is to be able to kind of be able to draw some insights from that, whether to be able to build an audience membership on top of that, build a predictive model, such as the churn risk model or lifetime value of that customer. And finally is being able to activate that data, so you'll be able to push that data again, to those relevant downstream systems where the business users are actually using that data to, to do their targeting, or to do more interesting things with it. >> So for example, if I go to the next Warrior's game, which I predict they're going to win, and I have like a mobile app of the stadium or the team, how, and I and I'm a season ticket holder, how can a customer data platform give me that personalized experience and help to, yeah, I'd love to kind of get it in that perspective. >> Yeah. So first of all, again, in this modern day and age consumers are engaging with brands from multiple devices, and their attention span, frankly, isn't that long. So I may start off my day, you know, downloading the official warriors app, right. And I may be, you know browsing from my mobile phone, but I could get distracted. I've got to go join a meeting at work, drop off my kids or whatever, right? But later in the day I had in my mind, I may be interested in purchasing tickets or buying that warriors Jersey. So I may return to the website, or even the physical store, right. If, if I happen to be in the area and what the customer data platform is doing in the background, is associating and connecting all those online and offline touchpoints, to that user profile. And then now, I have a mar- so let's say I'm a marker for the golden state warriors. And I see that, you know, this particular user has looked at my website even added to their cart, you know, warriors Jersey. I'm now able to say, Hey, here's a $5 promotional coupon. Also, here's a special, limited edition. We just won, you know, the, the Western conference finals. And you can pre-book, you know, the, you know the warriors championships Jersey, cross your fingers, and target that particular user with that promotion. And it's much more likely because we have that contextual data that that user's going to convert, than just blasting them on a Facebook or something like that. >> Right. Which all of us these days are getting less and less patient with, Is those, those broad blasts through social media and things like that. That was, I love that example. That was a great example. You talked about timing. One of the things I think that we've learned that's in very short supply, in the last couple of years is people's patience and tolerance. We now want things in nanoseconds. So, the ability to glean insights from data and act on it in real time is no longer really a nice to have that's really table stakes for any type of organization. Talk to us about how mparticle facilitates that real time data, from an insights perspective and from an activation standpoint. >> Yeah. You bring up a good point. And this is actually one of the core differentiators of mparticle compared to the other CDPs is that, our architecture from the ground up is built for real time. And the way we do that is, we use essentially a real time streaming architecture backend. Essentially all the data points that we collect and send to those downstream destinations, that happens in milliseconds, right? So the moment that that user, again, like clicks a button or adds something to their shopping cart, or even abandons that shopping cart, that downstream tool, whether it's a marketer, whether it's a business analyst looking at that data for intelligence, they get that data within milliseconds. And our audience computations also happens within seconds. So again, if you're, if you have a targeted list for a targeted campaign, those updates happen in real time. >> You gave an- you ran with the Warrior's example that I threw at you, which I love, absolutely. Talk to me. You must have though, a favorite cu- real world customer example of mparticle's that you think really articulates the value to organizations, whether it's to marketers operators and has some nice, tangible business outcomes. Share with me if you will, a favorite customer story. >> Yeah, definitely one of mine and probably one of the- our most well known's is we were actually behind the scenes of the Whopper jr campaign. So a couple of years ago, Burger King ran this really creative ad where the, effectively their goal was to get their mobile app out, as well as to train, you know, all of us back before COVID days, how to order on our mobile devices and to do things like curbside checkout. None of us really knew how to do that, right. And there was a challenge of course that, no one wants to download another app, right? And most apps get downloaded and get deleted right out away. So they ran this really creative promotion where, if you drove towards a McDonald's, they would actually fire off a text message saying, Hey, how about a Whopper for 99 cents instead? And you would, you would, you would receive a text message personalized just for you. And you'd be able to redeem that at any burger king location. So we were kind of the core infrastructure plumbing the geofencing location data, to partner of ours called radar, which handles you geofencing, and then send it back to a marketing orchestration vendor to be able to fire that targeted message. >> Very cool. I, I, now I'm hungry. You, but there's a fine line there between knowing that, okay, Lisa's driving towards McDonald's let's, you know, target her with an ad for a whopper, in privacy. How do you guys help organizations in any industry balance that? Cause we're seeing more and more privacy regulations popping up all over the world, trying to give consumers the ability to protect either the right to forget about me or don't use my data. >> Yeah. Great question. So the first way I want to respond to that is, mparticle's really at the core of helping brands build their own first party data foundation. And what we mean by that is traditionally, the way that brands have approached marketing is reliant very heavily on second and third party data, right? And most that second-third party data is from the large walled gardens, such as like a Facebook or a TikTok or a Snapchat, right? They're they're literally just saying, Hey find someone that is going to, you know fit our target profile. And that data is from people, all their activity on those apps. But with the first party data strategy, because the brand owns that data, we- we can guarantee that or the brands can guarantee to their customers it's ethically sourced, meaning it's from their consent. And we also help brands have governance policies. So for example, if the user has said, Hey you're allowed to collect my data, because obviously you want to run your business better, but I don't want any my information sold, right? That's something that California recently passed, with CPRA. Then brands can use mparticle data privacy controls to say, Hey, you can pass this data on to their warehouses and analytics platforms, but don't pass it to a platform like Facebook, which potentially could resell that data. >> Got it, Okay. So you really help put sort of the, the reigns on and allow those customers to make those decisions, which I know the mass community appreciates. I do want to talk about data quality. You talked about that a little bit, you know, and and data is the lifeblood of an organization, if it can really extract value from it and act on it. But how do you help organizations maintain the quality of data so that what they can do, is actually deliver what the end user customer, whether it's a somebody buying something on a, on a eCommerce site or or, a patient at a hospital, get what they need. >> Yeah. So on the data quality front, first of all I want to highlight kind of our strengths and differentiation in identity resolution. So we, we run a completely deterministic algorithm, but it's actually fully customizable by the customer depending on their needs. So for a lot of other customer data providers, platform providers out there, they do offer identity resolution, but it's almost like a black box. You don't know what happens. And they could be doing a lot of fuzzy matching, right. Which is, you know, probabilistic or predictive. And the problem with that is, let's say, you know, Lisa your email changed over the years and CDP platform may match you with someone that's completely not you. And now all of a sudden you're getting ads that completely don't fit you, or worse yet that brand is violating privacy laws, because your personal data is is being used to target another user, which which obviously should not, should not happen, right? So because we're giving our customers complete control, it's not a black box, it's transparent. And they have the ability to customize it, such as they can specify what identifiers matter more to them, whether they want to match on email address first. They might've drawn on a more high confidence identifier like a, a hash credit card number or even a customer ID. They have that choice. The second part about ensuring data quality is we act actually built in schema management. So as those events are being collected you could say that, for example, when when it's a add to cart event, I require the item color. I require the size. Let's say it's a fashion apparel. I require the size of it and the type of apparel, right? And if, if data comes in with missing fields, or perhaps with fields that don't match the expectation, let's say you're expecting small, medium, large and you get a Q, you know Q is meaningless data, right? We can then enforce that and flag that as a data quality violation and brands can complete correct that mistake to make sure again, all the data that's flowing through is, is of value to them. >> That's the most important part is, is to make sure that the data has value to the organization, and of course value to whoever it is on the other side, the, the end user side. Where should customers start, in terms of working with you guys, do you recommend customers buy an all in one marketing suite? The best, you know, build a tech stack of best of breed? What are some of those things that you recommend for folks who are going, all right, We, maybe we have a CDP it's been under delivering. We can't really deliver that customer 360, mparticle, help us out. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, the best part about mparticle is you can kind of deploy it in phases, right. So if you're coming from a world where you've deployed a, all in one marketing suite, like a sales force in Adobe, but you're looking to maybe modernize pieces of a platform mparticle can absolutely help with that initial step. So let again, let's say all you want to do is modernize your event collection. Well, we can absolutely, as a first step, for example, you can instrument us. You can collect all your data from your web and mobile apps in real time, and we can pipe to your existing, you know Adobe campaign manager, Salesforce, marketing cloud. And later down the line, let's say, you say I want to, you know, modernize my analytics platform. I'm tired of using Adobe analytics. You can swap that out, right again with an mparticle place, a marketer can or essentially any business user can flip the switch. And within the mparticle interface, simply disconnect their existing tool and connect a new tool with a couple of button clicks and bam, the data's now flowing into the new tool. So it mparticle really, because we kind of sit in the middle of all these tools and we have over 300 productized prebuilt integrations allows you to move away from kind of a locked in, you know a strategy where you're committed to a vendor a hundred percent to more of a best of breed, agile strategy. >> And where can customers that are interested, go what's your good and market strategy? How does that involve AWS? Where can folks go and actually get and test out this technology? >> Yeah. So first of all, we are we are AWS, a preferred partner. and we have a couple of productized integrations with AWS. The most obvious one is for example, being able to just export data to AWS, whether it's Redshift or an S3 or a kinesis stream, but we also have productized integrations with AWS, personalized. For example, you can take events, feed em to personalize and personalize will come up with the next best kind of content recommendation or the next best offer available for the customer. And mparticle can ingest that data back and you can use that for personalized targeting. In fact, Amazon personalize is what amazon.com themselves use to populate the recommended for use section on their page. So brands could essentially do the same. They could have a recommended for you carousel using Amazon technology but using mparticle to move the data back and forth to, to populate that. And then on top of that very, very soon we'll be also launching a marketplace kind of entry. So if you are a AWS customer and you have credits left over or you just want to transact through AWS, then you'll have that option available as well. >> Coming soon to the AWS marketplace. James, thank you so much for joining me talking about mparticle, how you guys are really revolutionizing the customer data platform and allowing organizations and many industries to really extract value from customer data and use it wisely. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you very much, Lisa >> For James Fang, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube's coverage of the AWS startup showcase season three, season two episode three, leave it right here for more great coverage on theCube, the leader in live tech coverage.

(introductory riff) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the "AWS Startup Showcase." This is Season 2, Episode 3 of our ongoing series that features great partners in the massive AWS partner ecosystem. This series is focused on, "MarTech, Emerging Cloud-Scale Customer Experiences." I'm Lisa Martin, and I've got two guests here with me to talk about this. Please welcome Daisy Urfer, Cloud Alliance Sales Director at Algolia, and Jason Lang, the Head of Product for Apply Digital. These folks are here to talk with us today about how Algolia's Search and Discovery enables customers to create dynamic realtime user experiences for those oh so demanding customers. Daisy and Jason, it's great to have you on the program. >> Great to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Daisy, we're going to go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of Algolia, what you guys do, when you were founded, what some of the gaps were in the market that your founders saw and fixed? >> Sure. It's actually a really fun story. We were founded in 2012. We are an API first SaaS solution for Search and Discovery, but our founders actually started off with a search tool for mobile platforms, so just for your phone and it quickly expanded, we recognize the need across the market. It's been a really fun place to grow the business. And we have 11,000 customers today and growing every day, with 30 billion searches a week. So we do a lot of business, it's fun. >> Lisa: 30 billion searches a week and I saw some great customer brands, Locost, NBC Universal, you mentioned over 11,000. Talk to me a little bit about some of the technologies, I see that you have a search product, you have a recommendation product. What are some of those key capabilities that the products deliver? 'Cause as we know, as users, when we're searching for something, we expect it to be incredibly fast. >> Sure. Yeah. What's fun about Algolia is we are actually the second largest search engine on the internet today to Google. So we are right below the guy who's made search of their verb. So we really provide an overall search strategy. We provide a dashboard for our end users so they can provide the best results to their customers and what their customers see. Customers want to see everything from Recommend, which is our recommended engine. So when you search for that dress, it shows you the frequently bought together shoes that match, things like that, to things like promoted items and what's missing in the search results. So we do that with a different algorithm today. Most in the industry rank and they'll stack what you would want to see. We do kind of a pair for pair ranking system. So we really compare what you're looking for and it gives a much better result. >> And that's incredibly critical for users these days who want results in milliseconds. Jason, you, Apply Digital as a partner of Algolia, talk to us about Apply Digital, what it is that you guys do, and then give us a little bit of insight on that partnership. >> Sure. So Apply Digital was originally founded in 2016 in Vancouver, Canada. And we have offices in Vancouver, Toronto, New York, LA, San Francisco, Mexico city, Sao Paulo and Amsterdam. And we are a digital experiences agency. So brands and companies, and startups, and all the way from startups to major global conglomerates who have this desire to truly create these amazing digital experiences, it could be a website, it could be an app, it could be a full blown marketing platform, just whatever it is. And they lack either the experience or the internal resources, or what have you, then they come to us. And and we are end-to-end, we strategy, design, product, development, all the way through the execution side. And to help us out, we partner with organizations like Algolia to offer certain solutions, like an Algolia's case, like search recommendation, things like that, to our various clients and customers who are like, "Hey, I want to create this experience and it's going to require search, or it's going to require some sort of recommendation." And we're like, "Well, we highly recommend that you use Algolia. They're a partner of ours, they've been absolutely amazing over the time that we've had the partnership. And that's what we do." And honestly, for digital experiences, search is the essence of the internet, it just is. So, I cannot think of a single digital experience that doesn't require some sort of search or recommendation engine attached to it. So, and Algolia has just knocked it out of the park with their experience, not only from a customer experience, but also from a development experience. So that's why they're just an amazing, amazing partner to have. >> Sounds like a great partnership. Daisy, let's point it back over to you. Talk about some of those main challenges, Jason alluded to them, that businesses are facing, whether it's e-commerce, SaaS, a startup or whatnot, where search and recommendations are concerned. 'Cause we all, I think I've had that experience, where we're searching for something, and Daisy, you were describing how the recommendation engine works. And when we are searching for something, if I've already bought a tent, don't show me more tent, show me things that would go with it. What are some of those main challenges that Algolia solution just eliminates? >> Sure. So I think, one of the main challenges we have to focus on is, most of our customers are fighting against the big guides out there that have hundreds of engineers on staff, custom building a search solution. And our consumers expect that response. You expect the same search response that you get when you're streaming video content looking for a movie, from your big retailer shopping experiences. So what we want to provide is the ability to deliver that result with much less work and hassle and have it all show up. And we do that by really focusing on the results that the customers need and what that view needs to look like. We see a lot of our customers just experiencing a huge loss in revenue by only providing basic search. And because as Jason put it, search is so fundamental to the internet, we all think it's easy, we all think it's just basic. And when you provide basic, you don't get the shoes with the dress, you get just the text response results back. And so we want to make sure that we're providing that back to our customers. What we see average is even, and everybody's going mobile. A lot of times I know I do all my shopping on my phone a lot of the time, and 40%-50% better relevancy results for our customers for mobile users. That's a huge impact to their use case. >> That is huge. And when we talked about patients wearing quite thin the last couple of years. But we have this expectation in our consumer lives and in our business lives if we're looking for SaaS or software, or whatnot, that we're going to be able to find what we want that's relevant to what we're looking for. And you mentioned revenue impact, customer churn, brand reputation, those are all things that if search isn't done well, to your point, Daisy, if it's done in a basic fashion, those are some of the things that customers are going to experience. Jason, talk to us about why Algolia, what was it specifically about that technology that really led Apply Digital to say, "This is the right partner to help eliminate some of those challenges that our customers could face?" >> Sure. So I'm in the product world. So I have the wonderful advantage of not worrying about how something's built, that is left, unfortunately, to the poor, poor engineers that have to work with us, mad scientist, product people, who are like, "I want, make it do this. I don't know how, but make it do this." And one of the big things is, with Algolia is the lift to implement is really, really light. Working closely with our engineering team, and even with our customers/users and everything like that, you kind of alluded to it a little earlier, it's like, at the end of the day, if it's bad search, it's bad search. It just is. It's terrible. And people's attention span can now be measured in nanoseconds, but they don't care how it works, they just want it to work. I push a button, I want something to happen, period. There's an entire universe that is behind that button, and that's what Algolia has really focused on, that universe behind that button. So there's two ways that we use them, on a web experience, there's the embedded Search widget, which is really, really easy to implement, documentation, and I cannot speak high enough about documentation, is amazing. And then from the web aspect, I'm sorry, from the mobile aspect, it's very API fort. And any type of API implementation where you can customize the UI, which obviously you can imagine our clients are like, "No we want to have our own front end. We want to have our own custom experience." We use Algolia as that engine. Again, the documentation and the light lift of implementation is huge. That is a massive, massive bonus for why we partnered with them. Before product, I was an engineer a very long time ago. I've seen bad documentation. And it's like, (Lisa laughing) "I don't know how to imple-- I don't know what this is. I don't know how to implement this, I don't even know what I'm looking at." But with Algolia and everything, it's so simple. And I know I can just hear the Apply Digital technology team, just grinding sometimes, "Why is a product guy saying that (mumbles)? He should do it." But it is, it just the lift, it's the documentation, it's the support. And it's a full blown partnership. And that's why we went with it, and that's what we tell our clients. It's like, listen, this is why we chose Algolia, because eventually this experience we're creating for them is theirs, ultimately it's theirs. And then they are going to have to pick it up after a certain amount of time once it's theirs. And having that transition of, "Look this is how easy it is to implement, here is all the documentation, here's all the support that you get." It just makes that transition from us to them beautifully seamless. >> And that's huge. We often talk about hard metrics, but ease of use, ease of implementation, the documentation, the support, those are all absolutely business critical for the organization who's implementing the software, the fastest time to value they can get, can be table stakes, and it can be on also a massive competitive differentiator. Daisy, I want to go back to you in terms of hard numbers. Algolia has a recent force or Total Economic Impact, or TEI study that really has some compelling stats. Can you share some of those insights with us? >> Yeah. Absolutely. I think that this is the one of the most fun numbers to share. We have a recent report that came out, it shared that there's a 382% Return on Investment across three years by implementing Algolia. So that's increase to revenue, increased conversion rate, increased time on your site, 382% Return on Investment for the purchase. So we know our pricing's right, we know we're providing for our customers. We know that we're giving them the results that we need. I've been in the search industry for long enough to know that those are some amazing stats, and I'm really proud to work for them and be behind them. >> That can be transformative for a business. I think we've all had that experience of trying to search on a website and not finding anything of relevance. And sometimes I scratch my head, "Why is this experience still like this? If I could churn, I would." So having that ability to easily implement, have the documentation that makes sense, and get such high ROI in a short time period is hugely differentiated for businesses. And I think we all know, as Jason said, we measure response time in nanoseconds, that's how much patience and tolerance we all have on the business side, on the consumer side. So having that, not just this fast search, but the contextual search is table stakes for organizations these days. I'd love for you guys, and on either one of you can take this, to share a customer example or two, that really shows the value of the Algolia product, and then also maybe the partnership. >> So I'll go. We have a couple of partners in two vastly different industries, but both use Algolia as a solution for search. One of them is a, best way to put this, multinational biotech health company that has this-- We built for them this internal portal for all of their healthcare practitioners, their HCPs, so that they could access information, data, reports, wikis, the whole thing. And it's basically, almost their version of Wikipedia, but it's all internal, and you can imagine the level of of data security that it has to be, because this is biotech and healthcare. So we implemented Algolia as an internal search engine for them. And the three main reasons why we recommended Algolia, and we implemented Algolia was one, HIPAA compliance. That's the first one, it's like, if that's a no, we're not playing. So HIPAA compliance, again, the ease of search, the whole contextual search, and then the recommendations and things like that. It was a true, it didn't-- It wasn't just like a a halfhearted implementation of an internal search engine to look for files thing, it is a full blown search engine, specifically for the data that they want. And I think we're averaging, if I remember the numbers correctly, it's north of 200,000 searches a month, just on this internal portal specifically for their employees in their company. And it's amazing, it's absolutely amazing. And then conversely, we work with a pretty high level adventure clothing brand, standard, traditional e-commerce, stable mobile application, Lisa, what you were saying earlier. It's like, "I buy everything on my phone," thing. And so that's what we did. We built and we support their mobile application. And they wanted to use for search, they wanted to do a couple of things which was really interesting. They wanted do traditional search, search catalog, search skews, recommendations, so forth and so on, but they also wanted to do a store finder, which was kind of interesting. So, we'd said, all right, we're going to be implementing Algolia because the lift is going to be so much easier than trying to do everything like that. And we did, and they're using it, and massively successful. They are so happy with it, where it's like, they've got this really contextual experience where it's like, I'm looking for a store near me. "Hey, I've been looking for these items. You know, I've been looking for this puffy vest, and I'm looking for a store near me." It's like, "Well, there's a store near me but it doesn't have it, but there's a store closer to me and it does have it." And all of that wraps around what it is. And all of it was, again, using Algolia, because like I said earlier, it's like, if I'm searching for something, I want it to be correct. And I don't just want it to be correct, I want it to be relevant. >> Lisa: Yes. >> And I want it to feel personalized. >> Yes. >> I'm asking to find something, give me something that I am looking for. So yeah. >> Yeah. That personalization and that relevance is critical. I keep saying that word "critical," I'm overusing it, but it is, we have that expectation that whether it's an internal portal, as you talked about Jason, or it's an adventure clothing brand, or a grocery store, or an e-commerce site, that what they're going to be showing me is exactly what I'm looking for, that magic behind there that's almost border lines on creepy, but we want it. We want it to be able to make our lives easier whether we are on the consumer side, whether we on the business side. And I do wonder what the Go To Market is. Daisy, can you talk a little bit about, where do customers go that are saying, "Oh, I need to Algolia, and I want to be able to do that." Now, what's the GTM between both of these companies? >> So where to find us, you can find us on AWS Marketplace which another favorite place. You can quickly click through and find, but you can connect us through Apply Digital as well. I think, we try to be pretty available and meet our customers where they are. So we're open to any options, and we love exploring with them. I think, what is fun and I'd love to talk about as well, in the customer cases, is not just the e-commerce space, but also the content space. We have a lot of content customers, things about news, organizations, things like that. And since that's a struggle to deliver results on, it's really a challenge. And also you want it to be relevant, so up-to-date content. So it's not just about e-commerce, it's about all of your solution overall, but we hope that you'll find us on AWS Marketplace or anywhere else. >> Got it. And that's a great point, that it's not just e-commerce, it's content. And that's really critical for some industry, businesses across industries. Jason and Daisy, thank you so much for joining me talking about Algolia, Apply Digital, what you guys are doing together, and the huge impact that you're making to the customer user experience that we all appreciate and know, and come to expect these days is going to be awesome. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you. >> Thank you >> For Daisy and Jason, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE," our "AWS Startup Showcase, MarTech Emerging Cloud-Scale Customer Experiences." Keep it right here on "theCUBE" for more great content. We're the leader in live tech coverage. (ending riff)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80 startup showcase marketing technology, emerging cloud scale customer experiences. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the, a AWS ecosystem to talk about all the top trends and also featuring the key customers. I'm your host, John ER, today we're joined by Louis Fernando, Denise vice president of peak pay social and John Kim, the CEO of Sandberg to learn about the future of what's going on in fostering deeper customer relationships. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us in the cube showcase, >>Excited to be here. >>So John talk about Sendbird real quick set the table for us. What you guys do, you got a customer here to highlight some of the key things you're doing with customers, the value proposition what's Sendbird and what's the showcase about, >>Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Uh, I'm John founder, C of Sandberg. So Sandberg is the worst leading conversations platform for mobile applications. We can power user to user conversations in mobile applications, as well as the brand to user conversations such as marketing sales and support. So, uh, today we power over quarter billion users on a monthly basis. Uh, we have, you know, through over 300 employees across seven different countries around the world, we work with some of the world's leading, uh, uh, customers such as big pay that we are going to showcase today, along with other, uh, wonderful customers like DoorDash, Reddit, <inaudible> sports and so forth. We have collectively raised over 200 million in funding. Um, so that's kind of where we are today. >>Well, it's always great to have, uh, one great success. Uh, good funding, more important is the customers. And I love showcases where the customers do the talking, because that means you've got some success stories. Louise, talk about, um, are you happy customer? What's it like working with Sandberg? Give us the, give us the scoop. >>So sandbar is being a great partner with us. So pick pay is a Brazilian payment app. We're at a FinTech here with more than 30 million active users using everyday pick pay to pay everything. So the, the, the majority of the payments are between peers, between people. So sandbar is, is helping us to improve a lot this journey to make it more pleasant between every everyone who are using big, big. So we are here, let's talk and it's a >>Pleasure. Yeah, it's awesome. Well, I great to have you guys on great, great relationship. And one of the things we've been talking about on the cube, if the folks watching that know our audience, no we've been banging the, the drum hard on this new world and this new patterns of user expectations and building relationships in this new digital world is not about the old way, the old MarTech way. There are new new use cases, new expectations by the consumers, John, that are, that are bringing up new opportunities, but also expectations. It's not about, I mean, I mean, if someone's using discord, for example, cuz they're gamers, they're done discord. If they want to communicate with, with slack, they, I do slack, SMS, kind of old hat. You got WhatsApp, you've got all these now peer to peer organic connections, multiple channels. This is all the new world. What's your vision on this new relationship building digital communication world. >>Yeah. So I, I think you brought a really good point there. One of the most frequently used applications in the world today are messaging applications across any countries, any region, any culture, if you look at the most frequently used and most longest used applications are usually some form of a, a messaging application. Now the end users or the customers in the world are so used to using, uh, uh, such a, you know, frictionless ver very responsive, modern experience on those messaging applications. What we want to help with the business around the world, the 99.9% of the business around the world don't have those really te knowledge or user experience expertise in messaging. So we want to help our businesses, help our customers be able to harness the power of modern messaging capabilities and then be able to embed it in their own business so that they can retain their users on their platform, engage with them in the con context that their, uh, what their business is about so that they can not only, uh, control or provide a better user experience, but also be able to, uh, understand their users better, uh, understand what they're doing on their businesses, be able to own and, uh, control the data in a more secure and safe way. >>So really it's uh, we're like the Robin hood of the world trying to keep superpower yeah. Back to the businesses. >>Yeah. Deal from the rich idea, the messaging scale. Bring that to everybody else. I love that. Uh, and you got kind of this double int Robin hood kind of new for the new generation finance. This is about taking the advantage of scalable platforms, monopolies, right. And giving the entrepreneur an opportunity to have that same capability feature, rich Louise PPE. You guys used Sendbird together. You have to level up, you gotta compete with those big monopolies to pride, scalable conversations. Okay. How did you engage this? What was your success path look? What was it look like? >>Yeah. When we look to this majority, the bigger chat apps that we have nowadays in the market, we are looking to them and then Brazilians are using for their daily course, but Brazilians are paying every day millions and millions of payments. And these chat apps are not, uh, able to, to, to deal with these payments. So what we are doing here is that, uh, providing a solution where every conversation that are going to happen before, during, or after a payment between the, the people, they would, uh, uh, have a nice platform that could afford all, all of their emotions and discussions that they have to do before or after the payment. So we are putting together the chat platform and we with the payment platform. So that's, that's what we are doing now. >>Okay. So just so I get this right. You're using Sandberg essentially integrated your mobile payment experience. Okay. Which is your app you're Sandberg to bring that scalability into the, into the social app application into the app itself. Is that right? >>Yes. Perfect. Integrated with the payment journey. So everybody who is going to pay, they need to find the one, the, the one they want to pay and then they can chat and conclude the payment through the platform. Yeah. I >>Mean, why not have it right there at point of, uh, transaction. Right. Um, why did you, um, decide to, um, to use conversations in your mobile wallet? Just curious. >>So it's important to say that we were born social. We born in 2012. So when our main main product was peer to peer payments, so everybody were sending money to a friend requesting or charging their family. So a service provider. And once we, we started as a social platform in that period. In that moment, we are just focusing in likes comments and like public interactions and the word become more private. And as soon we under understood this situation, we decided to move from a public feed to a private, to a private interaction. So that's, uh, that then the, the conversational space was the solution for that moving from a public interaction to a private interaction. So between the peers, which are involved in the, the transaction. So that's why we are providing the chat solution integrated with payments. >>That's a great call. John, just give some context here, again, for the folks watching this is now expected, this integrated experience. What's your, how would you talk to folks out there? I mean, first of all, I, I, I see it clearly, you've got an app, you gotta have all this integration and you need it scaling to reach features. Talk about your view on that. Is that the, is that what's happening here? What's, what's the real dynamic here. What's the, the big trend. >>Yeah. One thing that's, uh, super interesting about, uh, uh, like messaging experience in general, if you think about any kind of conversations that's happening, uh, digitally between human beings, more and more conversations, just like what Louis mentioned earlier are happening between in a private setting, even on applications, whether it be slack or other forms of communication, uh, more hap uh, more conversations happen through either one-on-one conversations or in a private small group settings. And because people feel more secure, uh, safe to have, uh, more intimate conversations. So even when you're making transactions is more, you know, there's a higher trust and, uh, people tend to engage, uh, far better on platforms through these kind of private conversations. That's where we kind of come in, whether it be, you want to set a one-on-one conversations or with a group conversation. And then ultimately if you want to take it public in a large group setting, you can also support, you know, thousands, if not, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, uh, engaging a public forum as well. So all of those capabilities can be implemented using something Ember, but again, the world is, uh, right now the businesses and how the user are, are interacting with this with each other is all happening through digital conversations. And we're seeing more and more of that happening, uh, throughout the life cycle of our company. >>Yeah, just as a sidebar, I was just talking to a venture in San Francisco the other day, and we're talking about the future of security and SAS and cloud scale. And, you know, the conversation went to more of, is it SAS? Is it platform as a service Louis? I wanna get your thoughts because, you know, you're seeing more and more needs for customization, low code, no code. You're seeing these trends. You gotta built in security. So, you know, the different, the old SAS model was softwares a service, but now that's everything in the cloud is softwares a service. So, but you need to have that platform kind of vibe for scale customization, maybe some developer integration, cuz apps are becoming the, the touchpoint. So can you walk us through what your vision was when you decided to integrate, chat into your app and how did you see that chat, changing the customer experience for payments and across your user journey? Cause, I mean, it's obvious now looking at it, but it might not have been for some. What was your, what was your vision? And when you had to do that, >>When you looked to Brazilian reality, we can see those in, uh, payment apps. All of them are focused on the transactional moment. And as soon as we started to think, how could be, how could our journey be better, more pleased than the others and make people want to be here and to use and to open our app every day is just about making the interaction with the peers easier, even with a merchant or even with my friend. So the main point that our first step was just to connect all, all the users between themselves to payments. The second step we are providing now is using the chat platform, the send bird platform as a platform for peak pay. So we are going to provide more best information. We're going to provide a better customer experience through the support and everything. So, um, this, this, this interaction or this connection, this partnership with Sandberg are going to unlock a new level of service for our users. And at the same time, a much more pleasant or a more pleasant journey for them while they are using the, the app for a, a simple payment, or if they are going to look for a group objective or maybe a crowdfund in the future or a group to decide, or just to pay something. So we are then locking a new level of interaction between the peers between the people and the users that are, that are involved into this, this payment or this simple transaction, we are making it more conversational. >>Yeah. You're making the application more valuable. We're gonna get to that in the next segment about, you know, the future of apps one and done, you see a lot of sports apps, oh, this big tournament, you know, and then you use it and then you never use it again until next year. You know, you have very time specific apps, but now you guys are smart to kind of build this in, but I gotta ask you a question because a lot of developers and companies out there always have this buy versus build decision. Why did you decide to use Sendbird versus building it in house? It's always kind of like the big trade off. >>Yeah. First of all, it will take a long, long time for us to achieve a major platform as Sandberg. And we are not a chat platform. So we are going to use this social interaction to improve the payment platform that we have. So when we look to the market and we found Sandberg, then we thought, okay, this guys, they are a real platform. And through the conversations, we are seeing that they are roadmap working in synergy with our roadmap. And then we can, we could start to deliver value to our, to our users in a fastest way. Could you imagine it spending 2, 3, 4 years to develop something like sand? And even when we achieve this point, probably our solution will be, would be weaker than, than Sandberg. So it was like no brainer to do that. Yeah. Because we want to improve the payment journey, not to do a chat, only a chat platform. So that's why we are working together to prove it's >>Really, you start to see these plugins, these, you know, look at Stripe for payments, for instance, right. And here in the success they've had, you know, people want to plug in for services. So John, I gotta ask you about, um, about the, the complexity that goes into it. The trust required that they have for you, you have to do this heavy lifting, you gotta provide the confidence that your service is gonna have to scale the compliance. Talk about that. What do you guys do under the covers that make this easy again, great business model, heavy lifting done by you. Seamless integration provide that value. That's why business is good, but there's a lot going on share what's happening under the, under the covers. >>Yeah. Um, before going to like the technical, like intricacy of what we do just to provide a little bit of background context on why we even started this business is we, uh, this is my second startup. My first company was a gaming company. We had built like chat three, four times just for our own game. So we were basically, we felt like we were reinventing the wheel. And then we actually went on a buyer's journey when we were building a social application, uh, uh, for, for, uh, uh, building our own community. We tried to actually be a buyer to see if we can actually find a solution. We want to use turns out that there weren't a lot of like sophisticated, you know, top notch, modern, uh, uh, chat experience that we can build using some other third party solutions. So we had to build all of that ourselves, which became the foundation for se today. >>And what we realized is that for most companies like using a building, the most sophisticated chat is probably not going to be their highest priority in case a pick pay will be, you know, financial transactions and all the other business that can be built on and hosted by platform like pick pay. But, you know, building the most topnotch chat experience would be a priority for a company like let's say WhatsApp or, or telegram, but it will probably not be the priority for, you know, major gaming companies, food delivery companies, finance companies, chat is not the highest priority. That's kind of where we come in, cuz chat is the highest priority for us. And we also have a privilege of working with some of the other, uh, world industry, uh, industry leaders. So by, uh, having this collective experience, working with the industry leaders, we get, uh, uh, technological superiority, being able to, uh, scale to, you know, hundreds of millions of users on a monthly basis. Also the security and the compliances by working with some of the largest commercial banks on some of the largest FinTech applications across the globe. So we have, you know, security, compliances, all the industry, best practices that are built in and all the new topnotch user experience that we are, uh, building with other customers can be also be, uh, utilized by a customer like pick pay. So you get this collective almost like evolutionary benefit. Yeah. By, uh, working with a company like us, >>You get a lot of economies of scale. Could you mind just sharing the URL for the company? So folks watching can go get, do a deep dive. Cause I'm you guys got a lot of, lot of, um, certifications under the covers, a lot of things you guys do. So you mind just sharing URL real quick. >>Yeah. So our company, uh, you can find everything about our company on sandberg.com like carrot pigeon. So, uh, you're sending a bird to send a message. So, uh, yeah. send.com >>All so let's get it to the application, cuz this is really interesting cuz Chad is table stakes now, but things are evolving beyond Chad. You gotta integrate that user experience. It's data. Now you gotta have scale. I mean, you know, people who wanna roll their own chat will find out there's a lot of client side and backend scale issues. Right. You can have a tsunami river like on Twitch, you know, you chat. I mean that, could you got client side issues, data scale. <laugh> right. You got backend. Um, Louis, talk about that dynamic because you know, as you start to scale, you want to rely on that. Talk about this dynamic, how apps now are integrating all these new features. So is it, are apps gonna go like more multifunctional? Do you see apps one and done? What's the, how do you guys see this app world playing out and where does, does the Sendbird fit in? And >>Just, just let me know better John, about the performance or about the, just, just let me >>Oh, slow with performance. Uh, performance is huge, right? You gotta have no one wants to have lag on, on chat. >>Okay. So, um, big pay when we look to the payments have millions, thousands of, of, of payments happen happening every second. So what we are doing now is moving all the payments through a conversation. So it always happened inside the conversation. So since from the first moment, um, every second counts to convert this client. And since from the first moment we never saw in, on Sandberg, any issue about that. And even when we have a question or something that we need to improve the team we're working together. So that that's, those are the points that are making us to work together and to make things going pretty fast. When we look to the users who are going to use chat, they are, their intention is three times better than the users who are not using payments through the chat. They are average. Average spent is three times higher too. >>So they, they are making more connections. They are chatting with their friends. They are friends are here. So the network effect is stronger. So if they're going to pay and they need to wait one more second, two seconds to conclude the payment, probably they will not go into choose paying through the, again, they will use only the wallet, only the code, only the Alliance of the user. So that's is so important for us to perform really, really fast. And then this is what we are finding. And this is what is happening with the integration with Sandberg. >>And what's interesting is, is that the by build chat with conversation, we just had a minute ago kind of plays in here. You get the benefits of Sandberg, but now your transactional fidelity is in the chat <laugh> that you don't build that you rely on them on. So again, that's an interesting dynamic. This is the future of apps, John, this is where it matters. The engagement. This is what you talk about is the new, the new digital experience who would've thought that five, 10 years ago. I mean, chat was just like, Hey, what's going around direct message. Now it's integral part of the app. What's your reading. >>Yeah. I mean, we're seeing that across, uh, uh, to Lewis's point, not just transactions, but like marketing messages are now being sent through chat. So the marketing is no longer just about like giving discount calls, but you can actually reengage with the brand. Uh, also support is becoming more real time through chat. So you're actually building a relationship. The support agents have a better context about the previous conversations and the transactions, the sales conversations, even like building, uh, building alerts, notification, all those things are now, uh, happening through conversations. And that's a better way for customers to engage with the brand cuz you actually, you're actually building a better relationship and also, uh, being able to trust the brand more because there is a channel for you to communicate and, and, and be seen and be heard, uh, by the brand. So we do believe that that's the future of the business and how more and more, uh, brands will be building relationships with their customers. >>Yeah. I love, I love your business model. I think it's really critical. And I think that stickiness is a real, uh, call out point there and the brand, the co-branding and the branding capability, but also really quickly in the last minute we have John and Luis, if you don't mind talking about security, I mean, I can't go a day now without getting an SMS scam, uh, text, uh, you seeing it now on WhatsApp. I mean, I don't even use telegram anymore. I mean, come on. So like, like this is now a problem. The old way has been infiltrated with spam and security issues. Security has to be there. The trust and security real quick, John, we'll start with you and we all Louis go, go ahead. >>No, no. Just, just to, to say how important is that we are not only a chatting platform. We are a payment platform, so we have money now, the transaction. So here in Brazil, we have all this safe, the, the, the layers, the security layers that we have in, on our app. And then we have the security layers provided from Sandburg. So, and when we look to the features, Sandberg are providing to us a lot of features that help users to feel safer like per refined profiles, like announcements, where it's a profile from peak pay, where the users can recognize. So this is peak pay talking with me. It's not a user trying to pass, trying to use big Bay's name to talk with me. So these issues is something that we are really, really, we really care about here because we are not only a chat platform. As I said before, we are a payment platform. We are a FinTech, we're at a digital bank. So we need to take care a lot and we don't have any complaint about it because Sandberg understood it. And then they, they, they are providing since the first moment with the perfect solutions and the user interface to make it simpler for the users to recognize that we speak, pay who is chatting with them, not a user with, with bad, bad intentions. >>Great, great insight, Louis. Thanks for sharing that, John really appreciate you guys coming on. Great showcase. Real final word. John will give you the final word folks watching out there. How do they engage with Sendbird? I want to integrate, I want to use your chat service. What do I do? Do I have to connect in as it managed service is the line of code. What do I do to get Sendbird? >>Yeah. So if you're a developer building a mobile application, simply come visit our website, we have a open documentation and SDK you can download and simply plug into your application. You can have a chat experience up and running matter of minutes, if not ours using our UI kit. So we want to make it as easy as possible for all the builders in the world to be able to harness the superpower of digital conversations. >>All right, great. Congratulations, John, on your success and all the growth and Louis, thanks for coming in, sharing the customer perspective and great insight. Thanks for coming on the showcase. Really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. >>Yeah. Thank you for having me. >>Okay. The a of us startup showcase season two, episode three here I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. We're in Season two, Episode three, and this is the topic of MarTech and the Emerging Cloud-Scale Customer Experiences, the ongoing coverage of AWS's ecosystem of large scale growth and new companies and growing companies. I'm your host, John Furrier. We're excited to have Tim Barnes, Global Director, General Manager of Advertiser and Marketing at AWS here doing the keynote cloud-scale customer experience. Tim, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, great to be here and thank you for having me. >> You've seen many cycles of innovation, certainly in the ad tech platform space around data, serving consumers and a lot of big, big scale advertisers over the years as the Web 1.0, 2.0, now 3.0 coming, cloud-scale, roll of data, all big conversations changing the game. We see things like cookies going away. What does this all mean? Silos, walled gardens, a lot of new things are impacting the applications and expectations of consumers, which is also impacting the folks trying to reach the consumers. And this is kind of creating a kind of a current situation, which is challenging, but also an opportunity. Can you share your perspective of what this current situation is, as the emerging MarTech landscape emerges? >> Yeah, sure, John, it's funny in this industry, the only constant has changed and it's an ever-changing industry and never more so than right now. I mean, we're seeing with whether it's the rise of privacy legislation or just breach of security of data or changes in how the top tech providers and browser controllers are changing their process for reaching customers. This is an inflection point in the history of both ad tech and MarTech. You hit the nail on the head with cookie deprecation, with Apple removing IDFA, changes to browsers, et cetera, we're at an interesting point. And by the way, we're also seeing an explosion of content sources and ability to reach customers that's unmatched in the history of advertising. So those two things are somewhat at odds. So whether we see the rise of connected television or digital out of home, you mentioned Web 3.0 and the opportunities that may present in metaverse, et cetera, it's an explosion of opportunity, but how do we continue to connect brands with customers and do so in a privacy compliant way? And that's really the big challenge we're facing. One of the things that I see is the rise of modeling or machine learning as a mechanism to help remove some of these barriers. If you think about the idea of one-to-one targeting, well, that's going to be less and less possible as we progress. So how am I still as a brand advertiser or as a targeted advertiser, how am I going to still reach the right audience with the right message in a world where I don't necessarily know who they are. And modeling is a really key way of achieving that goal and we're seeing that across a number of different angles. >> We've always talked about on the ad tech business for years, it's the behemoth of contextual and behavioral, those dynamics. And if you look at the content side of the business, you have now this new, massive source of new sources, blogging has been around for a long time, you got video, you got newsletters, you got all kinds of people, self-publishing, that's been around for a while, right? So you're seeing all these new sources. Trust is a big factor, but everyone wants to control their data. So this walled garden perpetuation of value, I got to control my data, but machine learning works best when you expose data, so this is kind of a paradox. Can you talk about the current challenge here and how to overcome it because you can't fight fashion, as they say, and we see people kind of going down this road as saying, data's a competitive advantage, but I got to figure out a way to keep it, own it, but also share it for the machine learning. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I think first and foremost, if I may, I would just start with, it's super important to make that connection with the consumer in the first place. So you hit the nail on the head for advertisers and marketers today, the importance of gaining first party access to your customer and with permission and consent is paramount. And so just how you establish that connection point with trust and with very clear directive on how you're going to use the data has never been more important. So I would start there if I was a brand advertiser or a marketer, trying to figure out how I'm going to better connect with my consumers and get more first party data that I could leverage. So that's just building the scale of first party data to enable you to actually perform some of the types of approaches we'll discuss. The second thing I would say is that increasingly, the challenge exists with the exchange of the data itself. So if I'm a data control, if I own a set of first party data that I have consent with consumers to use, and I'm passing that data over to a third party, and that data is leaked, I'm still responsible for that data. Or if somebody wants to opt out of a communication and that opt out signal doesn't flow to the third party, I'm still liable, or at least from the consumer's perspective, I've provided a poor customer experience. And that's where we see the rise of the next generation, I call it of data clean rooms, the approaches that you're seeing, a number of customers take in terms of how they connect data without actually moving the data between two sources. And we're seeing that as certainly a mechanism by which you can preserve accessibility data, we call that federated data exchange or federated data clean rooms and I think you're seeing that from a number of different parties in the industry. >> That's awesome, I want to get into the data interoperability because we have a lot of startups presenting in this episode around that area, but why I got you here, you mentioned data clean room. Could you define for us, what is a federated data clean room, what is that about? >> Yeah, I would simply describe it as zero data movement in a privacy and secure environment. To be a little bit more explicit and detailed, it really is the idea that if I'm a party A and I want to exchange data with party B, how can I run a query for analytics or other purposes without actually moving data anywhere? Can I run a query that has accessibility to both parties, that has the security and the levels of aggregation that both parties agree to and then run the query and get those results sets back in a way that it actually facilitates business between the two parties. And we're seeing that expand with partners like Snowflake and InfoSum, even within Amazon itself, AWS, we have data sharing capabilities within Redshift and some of our other data-led capabilities. And we're just seeing explosion of demand and need for customers to be able to share data, but do it in a way where they still control the data and don't ever hand it over to a third party for execution. >> So if I understand this correctly, this is kind of an evolution to kind of take away the middleman, if you will, between parties that used to be historically the case, is that right? >> Yeah, I'd say this, the middleman still exists in many cases. If you think about joining two parties' data together, you still have the problem of the match key. How do I make sure that I get the broadest set of data to match up with the broadest set of data on the other side? So we have a number of partners that provide these types of services from LiveRamp, TransUnion, Experian, et cetera. So there's still a place for that so-called middleman in terms of helping to facilitate the transaction, but as a clean room itself, I think that term is becoming outdated in terms of a physical third party location, where you push data for analysis, that's controlled by a third party. >> Yeah, great clarification there. I want to get into this data interoperability because the benefits of AWS and cloud scales we've seen over the past decade and looking forward is, it's an API based economy. So APIs and microservices, cloud native stuff is going to be the key to integration. And so connecting people together is kind of what we're seeing as the trend. People are connecting their data, they're sharing code in open source. So there's an opportunity to connect the ecosystem of companies out there with their data. Can you share your view on this interoperability trend, why it's important and what's the impact to customers who want to go down this either automated or programmatic connection oriented way of connecting data. >> Never more important than it has been right now. I mean, if you think about the way we transact it and still too today do to a certain extent through cookie swaps and all sorts of crazy exchanges of data, those are going away at some point in the future; it could be a year from now, it could be later, but they're going away. And I think that that puts a great amount of pressure on the broad ecosystem of customers who transact for marketers, on behalf of marketers, both for advertising and marketing. And so data interoperability to me is how we think about providing that transactional layer between multiple parties so that they can continue to transact in a way that's meaningful and seamless, and frankly at lower cost and at greater scale than we've done in the past with less complexity. And so, we're seeing a number of changes in that regard, whether that's data sharing and data clean rooms or federated clean rooms, as we described earlier, whether that's the rise of next generation identity solutions, for example, the UID 2.0 Consortium, which is an effort to use hashed email addresses and other forms of identifiers to facilitate data exchange for the programmatic ecosystem. These are sort of evolutions based on this notion that the old world is going away, the new world is coming, and part of that is how do we connect data sources in a more seamless and frankly, efficient manner. >> It's almost interesting, it's almost flipped upside down, you had this walled garden mentality, I got to control my data, but now I have data interoperability. So you got to own and collect the data, but also share it. This is going to kind of change the paradigm around my identity platforms, attributions, audience, as audiences move around, and with cookies going away, this is going to require a new abstraction, a new way to do it. So you mentioned some of those standards. Is there a path in this evolution that changes it for the better? What's your view on this? What do you see happening? What's going to come out of this new wave? >> Yeah, my father was always fond of telling me, "The customer, my customers is my customer." And I like to put myself in the shoes of the Marc Pritchards of the world at Procter & Gamble and think, what do they want? And frankly, their requirements for data and for marketing have not changed over the last 20 years. It's, I want to reach the right customer at the right time, with the right message and I want to be able to measure it. In other words, summarizing, I want omnichannel execution with omnichannel measurement, and that's become increasingly difficult as you highlighted with the rise of the walled gardens and increasingly data living in silos. And so I think it's important that we, as an industry start to think about what's in the best interest of the one customer who brings virtually 100% of the dollars to this marketplace, which is the CMO and the CMO office. And how do we think about returning value to them in a way that is meaningful and actually drives its industry forward. And I think that's where the data operability piece becomes really important. How do we think about connecting the omnichannel channels of execution? How do we connect that with partners who run attribution offerings with machine learning or partners who provide augmentation or enrichment data such as third party data providers, or even connecting the buy side with the sell side in a more efficient manner? How do I make that connection between the CMO and the publisher in a more efficient and effective way? And these are all challenges facing us today. And I think at the foundational layer of that is how do we think about first of all, what data does the marketer have, what is the first party data? How do we help them ethically source and collect more of that data with proper consent? And then how do we help them join that data into a variety of data sources in a way that they can gain value from it. And that's where machine learning really comes into play. So whether that's the notion of audience expansion, whether that's looking for some sort of cohort analysis that helps with contextual advertising, whether that's the notion of a more of a modeled approach to attribution versus a one-to-one approach, all of those things I think are in play, as we think about returning value back to that customer of our customer. >> That's interesting, you broke down the customer needs in three areas; CMO office and staff, partners ISV software developers, and then third party services. Kind of all different needs, if you will, kind of tiered, kind of at the center of that's the user, the consumer who have the expectations. So it's interesting, you have the stakeholders, you laid out kind of those three areas as to customers, but the end user, the consumer, they have a preference, they kind of don't want to be locked into one thing. They want to move around, they want to download apps, they want to play on Reddit, they want to be on LinkedIn, they want to be all over the place, they don't want to get locked in. So you have now kind of this high velocity user behavior. How do you see that factoring in, because with cookies going away and kind of the convergence of offline-online, really becoming predominant, how do you know someone's paying attention to what and when attention and reputation. All these things seem complex. How do you make sense of it? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think that the consumer as you said, finds a creepiness factor with a message that follows them around their various sources of engagement with content. So I think at first and foremost, there's the recognition by the brand that we need to be a little bit more thoughtful about how we interact with our customer and how we build that trust and that relationship with the customer. And that all starts with of course, opt-in process consent management center but it also includes how we communicate with them. What message are we actually putting in front of them? Is it meaningful, is it impactful? Does it drive value for the customer? I think we've seen a lot of studies, I won't recite them that state that most consumers do find value in targeted messaging, but I think they want it done correctly and there in lies the problem. So what does that mean by channel, especially when we lose the ability to look at that consumer interaction across those channels. And I think that's where we have to be a little bit more thoughtful with frankly, kind of going back to the beginning with contextual advertising, with advertising that perhaps has meaning, or has empathy with the consumer, perhaps resonates with the consumer in a different way than just a targeted message. And we're seeing that trend, we're seeing that trend both in television, connected television as those converge, but also as we see about connectivity with gaming and other sort of more nuanced channels. The other thing I would say is, I think there's a movement towards less interruptive advertising as well, which kind of removes a little bit of those barriers for the consumer and the brand to interact. And whether that be dynamic product placement, content optimization, or whether that be sponsorship type opportunities within digital. I think we're seeing an increased movement towards those types of executions, which I think will also provide value to both parties. >> Yeah, I think you nailed it there. I totally agree with you on the contextual targeting, I think that's a huge deal and that's proven over the years of providing benefit. People, they're trying to find what they're looking for, whether it's data to consume or a solution they want to buy. So I think that all kind of ties together. The question is these three stakeholders, the CMO office and staff you mentioned, and the software developers, apps, or walled gardens, and then like ad servers as they come together, have to have standards. And so, I think to me, I'm trying to squint through all the movement and the shifting plates that are going on in the industry and trying to figure out where are the dots connecting? And you've seen many cycles of innovation at the end of the day, it comes down to who can perform best for the end user, as well as the marketers and advertisers, so that balance. What's your view on this shift? It's going to land somewhere, it has to land in the right area, and the market's very efficient. I mean, this ad market's very efficient. >> Yeah, I mean, in some way, so from a standards perspective, I support and we interact extensively with the IB and other industry associations on privacy enhancing technologies and how we think about these next generations of connection points or identifiers to connect with consumers. But I'd say this, with respect to the CMO, and I mentioned the publisher earlier, I think over the last 10 years with the rise of programmatic, certainly we saw the power reside mostly with the CMO who was able to amass a large pool of cookies or purchase a large sort of cohort of customers with cookie based attributes and then execute against that. And so almost a blind fashion to the publisher, the publisher was sort of left to say, "Hey, here's an opportunity, do you want to buy it or not?" With no real reason why the marketer might be buying that customer? And I think that we're seeing a shift backwards towards the publisher and perhaps a healthy balance between the two. And so, I do believe that over time, that we're going to see publishers provide a lot more, what I might almost describe as mini walled gardens. So the ability, great publisher or a set of publishers to create a cohort of customers that can be targeted through programmatic or perhaps through programmatic guaranteed in a way that it's a balance between the two. And frankly thinking about that notion of federated data clean rooms, you can see an approach where publishers are able to share their first party data with a marketer's first party data, without either party feeling like they're giving up something or passing all their value over to the other. And I do believe we're going to see some significant technology changes over the next three to four years. That really rely on that interplay between the marketer and the publisher in a way that it helps both sides achieve their goals, and that is, increasing value back to the publisher in terms of higher CPMs, and of course, better reach and frequency controls for the marketer. >> I think you really brought up a big point there we can maybe follow up on, but I think this idea of publishers getting more control and power and value is an example of the market filling a void and the power log at the long tail, it's kind of a straight line. Then it's got the niche kind of communities, it's growing in the middle there, and I think the middle of the torso of that power law is the publishers because they have all the technology to measure the journeys and the click throughs and all this traffic going on their platform, but they just need to connect to someone else. >> Correct. >> That brings in the interoperability. So, as a publisher ourselves, we see that long tail getting really kind of fat in the middle where new brands are going to emerge, if they have audience. I mean, some podcasts have millions of users and some blogs are attracting massive audience, niche audiences that are growing. >> I would say, just look at the rise of what we might not have considered publishers in the past, but are certainly growing as publishers today. Customers like Instacart or Uber who are creating ad platforms or gaming, which of course has been an ad supported platform for some time, but is growing immensely. Retail as a platform, of course, amazon.com being one of the biggest retail platforms with advertising supported models, but we're seeing that growth across the board for retail customers. And I think that again, there's never been more opportunities to reach customers. We just have to do it the right way, in the way that it's not offensive to customers, not creepy, if you want to call it that, and also maximizes value for both parties and that be both the buy and the sell side. >> Yeah, everyone's a publisher and everyone's a media company. Everyone has their own news network, everyone has their own retail, it's a completely new world. Tim, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective and insights on this key note, Tim Barnes, Global Director, General Manager of Advertiser and Market at AWS here with the Episode three of Season two of the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome everyone to this cube conversation featuring unit Q. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. And we are excited to be joined by Christian Vickle, the founder and CEO of unit Q Christian. Thank you so much for joining me today. >>Thank you so much, Lisa pleasure to be here. >>Let's talk a little bit about unit Q. You guys were founded in 2018, so pretty recent. What is it that unit Q does. And what were some of the gaps in the market that led you to founding the company? >>Yep. So me and my co-founder Nick, we're actually doing our second company now is the unit Q is number two, and our first company was called scout years ago. We were back ES wicks and it was very different from unit Q. It's a social network for meeting people. And it was really during that experience where we saw the impact that quality of the experience quality of the product can have on your growth trajectory and the challenges we faced. How do we test everything before we ship it? And in reality, a modern company will have, let's say, 20 languages supported you support Android, Iowas, web big screen, small screen, you have 20 plus integrations and you have lots of different devices out there that might run your binary a little differently. So who is the ultimate test group of all of these different permutation and that's the end user. >>And we, we saw the, the big gap in the market, sort of the dream platform for us was unit queue. So if, if this would've existed back in the day, we would've been a, a happy purchaser and customer, and it really comes down to how do we, how do we harness the power of user feedback? You know, the end user, that's testing your product every single day in all different configurations. And then they're telling you that, Hey, something didn't work for me. I got double build or the passive recent link didn't work, or I couldn't, you know, when music, when the ad is finished playing on, on my app, the music doesn't resume. So how do we capture those signals into something that the company and different teams can align on? So that's where, you know, unit Q the, the vision here is to build a quality company, to help other companies build higher quality products. >>So really empowering companies to take a data driven approach to product quality. I was looking on your website and noticed that Pandora is one of your customers, but talk to me a little bit about a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Q unit he was delivering. >>Right? So maybe we should just go back one little step and talk about what is quality. And I think quality is something that is, is a bit subjective. It's something that we live and breathe every day. It's something that can be formed in an instant first impressions. Last it's something that can be built over time that, Hey, I'm using this product and it's just not working for me. Maybe it's missing features. Maybe there are performance related bots. Maybe there is there's even fulfillment related issues. Like we work with Uber and hello, fresh and, and other types of more hybrid type companies in addition to the Pandoras and, and Pinterest and, and Spotify, and these more digital, only products, but the, the end users I'm producing this data, the reporting, what is working and not working out there in many different channels. So they will leave app produce. >>They will write into support. They might engage with a chat support bot. They will post stuff on Reddit on Twitter. They will comment on Facebook ads. So like this data is dispersed everywhere. The end user is not gonna fill out a perfect bug report in a form somewhere that gets filed into gr like they're, they're producing this content everywhere in different languages. So the first value of what we do is to just ingest all of that data. So all the entire surface area of use of feedback, we ingest into a machine and then we clean the data. We normalize it, and then we translate everything into English. And it was actually a surprise to us when we started this company, that there are quite a few companies out there that they're only looking at feedback in English. So what about my Spanish speaking users? What about my French speaking users? >>And when, when, when that is done, like when all of that data is, is need to organized, we extract signals from that around what is impacting the user experience right now. So we break these, all of this data down into something called quality monitors. So quality monitor is basically a topic which can be again, passive reset, link noting, or really anything that that's impacting the end user. And the important part here is that we need to have specific actionable data. For instance, if I tell you, Hey, Lisa music stops playing is a growing trend that our users are reporting. You will tell me, well, what can I do with that? Like what specifically is breaking? So we deploy up to 1500 unique quality monitors per customer. So we can then alert different teams inside of the organization of like, Hey, something broke and you should take a look at it. >>So it's really breaking down data silos within the company. It aligns cross-functional teams to agree on what should be fixed next. Cause there's typically a lot of confusion, you know, marketing, they might say, Hey, we want this fixed engineering. They're like, well, I can't reproduce, or that's not a high priority for us. The support teams might also have stuff that they want to get fixed. And what we've seen is that these teams, they struggle to communicate. So how do we align them around the single source of truth? And I think that's for unit two is early identification of stuff. That's not working in production and it's also aligning the teams so they can quickly triage and say, yes, we gotta fix this right before it snowballs into something. We say, you know, we wanna, we wanna cap catch issues before you go into crisis PR mode, right? So we want to get this, we wanna address it early in the cycle. >>Talk to me about when you're in customer conversations, Christian, the MarTech landscape is competitive. There's nearly 10,000 different solutions out there, and it's growing really quickly quality monitors that you just described is that one of the key things that, that you talk to customers about, that's a differentiator for unit Q. >>Yeah. So I mean, it, it, it comes down to, as you're building your product, right, you, you have, you have a few different options. One is to build new features and we need to build new features and innovate and, and, and that's all great. We also need to make sure that the foundation of the product is working and that we keep improving quality and what, what we see with, with basically every customer that we work with, that, that when quality goes up, it's supercharges the growth machine. So quality goes up, you're gonna see less support tickets. You're gonna see less one star reviews, less one star reviews is of course good for making the store front convert better. You know, I, I want install a 4.5 star app, not a 3.9 star app. We also see that sentiment. So for those who are interested in getting that NPS score up for the next time we measure it, we see that quality is of course a very important piece of that. >>And maybe even more importantly, so sort of inside of the product machine, the different conversion steps, let's say sign up to activate it to coming back in second day, 30 day, 90 day, and so forth. We see a dramatic impact on how quality sort of moves that up and down the retention function, if you will. So it, it really, if you think about a modern company, like the product is sort of the center of the existence of the company, and if the product performs really well, then you can spend more money in marketing because it converts really good. You can hire more engineers, you can hire, you can hire more support people and so forth. So it's, it's really cool to see that when quality improves its supercharges, everything else I think for marketing it's how do you know if you're spending into a broken product or not? >>And I, and I, I feel like marketing has, they have their insights, but it's, it's not deep enough where they can go to engineering and say, Hey, these 10 issues are impacting my MPS score and they're impacting my conversion and I would love for you to fix it. And when you can bring tangible impact, when you can bring real data to, to engineering and product, they move on it cause they also wanna help build the company. And, and so I think that's, that's how we stand out from the more traditional MarTech, because we need to fix the core of, of sort of this growth engine, which is the quality of the product >>Quality of the product. And obviously that's directly related to the customer experience. And we know these days, one of the things I think that's been in short supply the last couple of years is patience. We know when customers are unhappy with the product or service, and you talked about it a minute ago, they're gonna go right to, to Reddit or other sources to complain about that. So being able to, for uniq, to help companies to improve the customer experience, isn't I think table stakes for businesses it's mission critical these days. Yeah, >>It is mission critical. So if you look at the, let's say that we were gonna start a, a music app. Okay. So how do we, how do we compete as a music app? Well, if you, if you were to analyze all different music apps out there, they have more or less the same features app. Like they, the feature differentiation is minimal. And, and if you launch a new cool feature than your competitor will probably copy that pretty quickly as well. So competing with features is really hard. What about content? Well, I'm gonna get the same content on Spotify as apple SD. So competing with content is also really hard. What about price? So it turns out you'll pay 9 99 a month for music, but there's no, there's no 1 99. It's gonna be 9 99. So quality of the experience is one of the like last vectors or areas where you can actually compete. >>And we see consistently that if you' beating your competition on quality, you will do better. Like the best companies out there also have the highest quality experience. So it's, it's been, you know, for us at our last company, measuring quality was something that was very hard. How do we talk about it? And when we started this company, I went out and talked to a bunch of CEOs and product leaders and board members. And I said, how do you talk about quality in a board meeting? And they were, they said, well, we don't, we don't have any metrics. So actually the first thing we did was to define a metrics. We have, we have this thing called this unit Q score, which is on our website as well, where we can base it's like the credit score. So you can see your score between zero and a hundred. >>And if your score is 100, it means that we're finding no quality issues in the public domain. If your score is 90, it means that 10% of the data we look at refers to a quality issue. And the definition of a quality issue is quite simple. It is when the user experience doesn't match the user expectation. There is a gap in between, and we've actually indexed the 5,000 largest apps out there. So we're then looking at all the public review. So on our website, you can go in and, and look up the unit Q score for the 5,000 largest products. And we republish these every night. So it's an operational metric that changes all the time. >>Hugely impactful. Christian, thank you so much for joining me today, talking to the audience about unit Q, how you're turning qualitative feedback into pretty significant product improvements for your customers. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you, Lisa, have a great day. >>You as well, per Christian Lin, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching a cube conversation.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome, everyone, to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of the CUBE. We're here to talk about the state of MarTech and AI. We're here with the co-founder and head of AI for Blueshift, Manyam Mallela. Welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you for having me, excited to chat with you. >> Blueshift is a company you've co-founded with a couple other co-founders and you guys have a stellar pedigree going in data AI back before it was fashionable, in the old days, Web 1.0, if you want to call it that. So, you know, we know what you guys have been doing in your careers. Now you got a company on the cutting edge, solving problems for customers as they transition from this new, new way of doing things where users have data and power and control, customers are trying to be more authentic, got walled gardens emerging everywhere but that we're supposed to be away from walled gardens. So there's a whole set of new patterns, new expectations and new behaviors. So all this is challenging, but yet it's an opportunity. So I want to get into it. What is your vision? And what's your view on the MarTech today and AI, and how do you guys fit into that, that story? >> Yeah. Great question, John. We are still in the very early innings of where every digital experience is informed, both creatively from the marketing side of our organization, as well as the AI doing the heavy lifting under the herd to be able to create those experience at scale. And I think today every digital customer and every user out there are leaving a trail of very rich, very frequent interaction data with their brands and organizations that they interact with. You know, if you look at each of us, many, many moments and hours of our digital lives are with these interactions that we do on screens and devices, and that leaves a rich trail of data. And brands that are winning, brands that we want to interact with more, have user privacy and user safety at the center of it. And then they build that authentic connection from there on. And, you know, just like when we log into our favorite streaming shows or streaming applications, we want to see things that are relevant to us. They, in some sense, knowing kind of intimately our preferences or changing taste. And how does a brand or organization react to that but still make room for that authentic connection? >> It's an awesome opportunity. And it's a lot of challenges, and it's just starting, I totally agree. Let me ask you a question, Manyam, if you don't mind. How did you guys come up with Blueshift? I know you guys have been in this game before it was fashionable, so to speak, but you know, solving Web 1.0, 2.0 problems. And then, you know, Walmart Labs, everyone knows the history of Walmart and how fast they were with inventory and how they used data. You have that kind of trajectory. When you saw this opportunity, was it like the team was saying, wow, look at this, it's right in our wheelhouse, or, how did you guys get here, and then how did it all come together? >> Yeah, thanks for offering me an opportunity to share our personal journey. You know, I think prior to starting Blueshift with my co-founders, who I worked with for almost the past 20 years of my life, we were at a company called Kosmix, which was a Silicon Valley, early AI pioneer. We were doing semantics search, and in 2011, Walmart started their Silicon Valley innovation hub, Walmart Labs, with the acquisition of Kosmix. And, you know, we went into Walmart Labs, and until then they were already an e-commerce leader. They had been practicing e-commerce for better part of 12 years prior to that, but they're certainly you know, behind, compared to their peers, right? And the peers to be named! (laughs) But, they saw this lack of what it is that they were doing so well in brick and mortar that they're not able to fully get there on the digital side. And, you know, this was almost a decade ago. And when they brought in our team with a lot of AI and data systems at scale, building things at the cutting edge, you know, we went into it a little bit naively, thinking, you know, hey, we are going to solve this problem for Walmart scale in three months. (laughs) But it took us three years to build those systems of engagement. Despite Walmart having an enormous amount of resources being the number one retailer in the world and the data and the resource at their disposal, we had to rethink a lot of assumptions and the trends that were converging were, you know, uses for interacting with them across multiple formats and channels. And both offline and online, the velocity and complexity of the data was increasing. All the marketing and merchandising teams said even a millisecond delay for me is unconscionable. And how do you get fresh data and activated at the moment of experience, without delay, this significant challenge at scale? And that's what we solve for our organizations. >> It really is the data problem. It's a scale problem. It's all that. And then having the software to have that AI predictive and, you know, it's omnichannel when you think about it, in that retail and that brick and mortar term used for physical space and digital converging. And we saw the pandemic pull forward this same dynamic where events and group behaviors and just interactions were all converging. So this line between physical and digital is now blurred, completely blended, the line between customer experience and marketing has been erased, and you guys are the center of this. What does it mean for the customer? Because the customers out there, your customers, or potential customers. They got problems to solved. They're going all digital cloud-native applications, the digital transformation. This is the new normal, and some are on it, are starting it, some are way behind. What are they- What's the situation with the customers? >> Yeah, that's certainly the maturity of, you know, the, each brand and organization along that, you know, both transformation and from transformation to actually thriving in that ecosystem. And how do we actually win, you know, share of mind and then share of, like, that market that they're looking to does take a while. And, and many are, you know, kind of midway through their journey. I think, there was, initially there is a lot of, you know, push towards let's collect all the data that we can but then, you know, how does the actually data becomes something useful that changes experience for Manyam versus John is really that critical moment. And that moment is when, you know, a lot of things come into place. And if I look at, like, the broader landscape, there are certainly lines of powers like Discovery, like Udacity and LendingTree, and Zumper car pods across all these industries. Who would've thought like, you know, all these industries who you would not think of actually as solving a digital engagement problem are now saying that's the key to our success and our growth. >> Yeah. It's absolutely the number one problem. This is the number one opportunity for all businesses, not just verticals here and there, all verticals. So walk me through your typical customer scenario. You know, what are the challenges that they face? You're in the middle of it, you're solving these problems, what are their challenges that they face and how do you guys solve them? >> Absolutely. So I'll talk through two examples, one from a finance industry, one from online learning, you know, o One of our great customers that we partner with is LendingTree. They offer tens of millions of customers' finance products that span from home loans, students loans, auto loans, credits, all of that. And, and let these people come into their website and collect information that is relevant to the loan that they're considering, but engage them in a way for the next period of time. So if you typically think about engagement, it's not just a one interaction, usually that follows a series of steps an organization has to take to be able to explain all their offerings in a way that is digestible and relevant and personalized to each of those millions of customers and actually have them through the funnel and measure it and report on it and make sure that that is the most relevant to them. So in a finance setting that is about consuming credit products, consuming loan products, consuming reporting products in an online context. I'll give you an example of one of our customers, Udacity. Imagine you are a marketing team of two people, and you are in challenged with, how do you engage 20 million students. You're not going to write 20 million communications that are different for each of those students, certainly. I think you need a system to say what did actually all these students come for? How do I learn what they want at this moment in time? What do they want next? If they actually finished something that they started two months ago, would they be eligible for the right course? Maybe today we are talking about self-driving cars. That's the course that I should bring in front of them. And that's only a small segment of the students but someone else maybe on the media and the production side. How do I personalize the experience so that every single step of the way for that student is, you know, created and delivered at scale? And that's kind of the problem that we solve for our brands, which is they have these millions of touchpoint that are, that they have, how do they bring all their data, very fresh and activated at the moment of action? >> So you guys are creating the 10x marketer. I mean, kind of- >> That's right. That's a very (indistinct)- >> 10X engineer, the famous, you're 10X engineer. >> Right. >> You guys are bringing a lot of heavy lifting to short staffs or folks that don't have a data science team or data engineering team. You're kind of bringing that 10x marketing capability. >> Absolutely. I think that's a great way to put it. I call it the mission impossible, which is, you know, you're signing up for the mission impossible, for every marketing team, it's like, now they're like, they are the product managers they're the data scientists, they're the analysts. They are the creator, you know, author, all of that combined into a role. And now you're entrusted with this really massive challenge. And how do you actually get there? And it's that 10x marketer who are embracing these technologies to get there. >> Well, I'm looking forward to challenging though because I can imagine you get a lot of skeptics out there. I don't believe you. It sounds too good to be true. And I want to get to that in the next segment, but I want to ask you about the state of MarTech and AI specifically. MarTech traditionally has been on Web 2.0 standards, DNS, URLs. It's the naming system of the internet. It's the internet infrastructure. So- >> Right. what needs to change to make that scale higher? Does, is there any new abstraction or any kind of opportunities for doing things in just managing you know, tokens that need to be translated? It's hard to do cross to- I mean, there's a lot of problems with Web 2.0 legacy that kind of holds back the promise of high availability of data, privacy, AI, more machine learning, more exposure of data. Can you share your vision on this next layer? >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of excitement about what Web3 would bring us there in the very early innings of that possibility. But the challenge of, you know, data that leads to authentic experience still remains the same whichever metaverse we might actually interact with a brand name, like, you know, even if I go to a Nike store in the Metaverse, I still need to understand what that customer really prefers and keep up with that customer as they change their preferences. And AI is the key to be able to help a marketer. I call it the, you know, our own group call it like IPA you know, which is ingest all possible data, even from Metaverse, you know, the protocols might change, the formats might change, but then you have to not only have a sense of what happened in the past. I think there are more than enough tools to know what happened. There are only emerging tools to tell you what might happen. How do I predict? So ingest, predict, and then next step is activate. Actually you had to do something with it. How do I activate it, that the experience for you, whether it's Web3 or Web2 changes, and that IPA is kind of our own brew of, you know, AI marketing that we are taking to market. >> And that's the enablement piece, so how does this relate to the customer's data? You guys are storing all the data? Are they coming in? Is there a huge data lake involved? Can I bring in third party data? Does it have to be all be first party? How is that platform-level enabling this new form of customer engagement? >> Absolutely. There's a lot of heavy lifting that the data systems that one has to you know, bring to bear upon the problem, data systems ranging from, you know, distributed search, distributed indexing, low latency systems, data lakes that are built for high velocity, AI machine learning, training model inference, that validation pipeline. And, you know, we certainly leverage a lot of of data lake systems out there, including many of the components that are, you know, provided by our preferred partner, AWS and open source tools. And these data systems are certainly very complex to manage. And for an organization that, with a, you know, 5 to 10 people team of marketers, they're usually short staffed on the, the amount of attention that they get from rest of the organization. And what we have made is that you can ingest a lot more raw data. We do the heavy lifting, but both data management, identity resolution, segmentation, audience building, predictions, recommendations, and then give you also the delivery piece, which is, can I actually send you something? Can I put something in front of the user and measure it and report on it and tell you that, this is the ROI? How do, if all this would be for nothing, if actually you go through all this and there's no real ROI. And we have kind of, you know, our own forester did a total economic impact study with us. And they have found, they have found 781% ROI for implementing Blueshift. And it's a tremendous amount of ROI you get once you are able to reorient your organizations towards that. >> You know, Manyam, one of the problems of being a visionary and a pioneer like you guys are, you're early a lot. And so you must be scratching your head going, oh, the hot buzzword these days is the semantic layer, in Khan, you see snowflake and a bunch of other people kind of pushing this semantic layer. It's basically a data plane essentially for data, right? >> Right. >> And you guys have done that. Been there, done that, but now that's in play, you guys have this. >> That's right. >> You've got all this semantic search built in into the system, all this in data ingestion, it's a full platform. And so I need to ask you how you see this vectoring into the future state of customer engagement. Where, where do you see this intersecting with the organizations you're trying to bring this to? Are they putting more investment in, are they pulling back? Are they, where are, where are they and where are you guys relative to this, this technology? And, and, and, and first of all let's get your reaction to this semantic layer first. >> Right, right. It's a fantastic, you know, as a technologist, I love, you know, kind of the ontology and semantic differences, you know, how, how, you know, data planes, data meshes, data fabrics are put together. And, you know, I saw this, you know, kind of a dichotomy between CIO org and CMO org, right? The CO says like, you know, I have the best data plane, the data mesh, the data fabric. And the CMO says like, but I'm actually trying to accomplish something for this campaign. And they're like, oh, that, does it actually connect the both of pieces? >> So I think, the- >> Yeah? >> The CMO org certainly will need purpose-built applications, on top of the data fabric, on top of the data lakes, on top of the data measures, to be able to help marketing teams both technical and semi-technical to be able to accomplish that. >> Yeah. And then, and the new personas they want turnkey, they want to have it self-service. Again, the 10x marketer is someone with a small staff that can do the staff of hundred people, right? >> That's absolutely- >> So that's where it's going. And this is, this i6s the new normal. >> So, we call them AI marketers. And I think it's a, it's like you're calling a 10x marketer. I think, you know, over time we didn't have, you know this word, business intelligence analyst, but then once the tool are there, then they become business intelligence analysts. I think likewise, once these tools are available then we'll have AI marketers out in the market. >> Well, Manyam, I'd love to do a full, like, one-hour podcast with you. You can go for a long time with these topics given what you guys are working on, how relevant it is, how cool it is right now, and with what you guys have as a team and solution. I really appreciate you coming on the CUBE to chat. For the last minute we have here, give a quick plug for the company, what you guys are up to, size, funding, revenues, what you're looking for. What should people pay attention to? Give the plug. >> Yeah. Yeah, we are a global team, spanning, you know, multiple time zones. You know, we have raised $65 million to date to build out our vision and, you know, over the last eight years of our funding, we have served hundreds of customers and continuing to, you know, take on more. I think, you know, our hope is that over time, the next 10,000 organizations see this as a very much an approachable, you know, problem to solve for themselves, which I think is where we are. AI marketing is real doable, proven ROI. Can we get the next 10,000 customers to embrace that? >> You know, as we always used to say in the kind of web business and search, it's the contextual and the behavioral, you got to bring 'em together here. You got all that technology for the, for the sites and applications for the behavior and converting that contextually into value. Really compelling solution. Thanks for sharing your insight. >> Yeah. Thank you John, really appreciate this. >> Okay, this is CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From "theCUBE" studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from "theCUBE" and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> There are very few political issues that get bipartisan support these days, nevermind consensus spanning geopolitical boundaries. But whether we're talking across the aisle or over the pond, there seems to be common agreement that the power of big tech firms should be regulated. But the government's track record when it comes to antitrust aimed at big tech is actually really mixed, mixed at best. History has shown that market forces rather than public policy have been much more effective at curbing monopoly power in the technology industry. Hello, and welcome to this week's "Wikibon CUBE" insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in frequent "CUBE" contributor Dave Moschella, author and senior fellow at the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation. Dave, welcome, good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks Dave, good to be here. >> So you just recently published an article, we're going to bring it up here and I'll read the title, "Theory Aside, Antitrust Advocates Should Keep Their "Big Tech" Ambitions Narrow". And in this post you argue that big sweeping changes like breaking apart companies to moderate monopoly power in the tech industry have been ineffective compared to market forces, but you're not saying government shouldn't be involved rather you're suggesting that more targeted measures combined with market forces are the right answer. Can you maybe explain a little bit more the premise behind your research and some of your conclusions? >> Sure, and first let's go back to that title, when I said, theory aside, that is referring to a huge debate that's going on in global antitrust circles these days about whether antitrust should follow the traditional path of being invoked when there's real harm, demonstrable harm to consumers or a new theory that says that any sort of vast monopoly power inevitably will be bad for competition and consumers at some point, so your best to intervene now to avoid harms later. And that school, which was a very minor part of the antitrust world for many, many years is now quite ascendant and the debate goes on doesn't matter which side of that you're on the questions sort of there well, all right, well, if you're going to do something to take on big tech and clearly many politicians, regulators are sort of issuing to do something, what would you actually do? And what are the odds that that'll do more good than harm? And that was really the origins of the piece and trying to take a historical view of that. >> Yeah, I learned a new word, thank you. Neo-brandzian had to look it up, but basically you're saying that traditionally it was proving consumer harm versus being proactive about the possibility or likelihood of consumer harm. >> Correct, and that's a really big shift that a lot of traditional antitrust people strongly object to, but is now sort of the trendy and more send and view. >> Got it, okay, let's look a little deeper into the history of tech monopolies and government action and see what we can learn from that. We put together this slide that we can reference. It shows the three historical targets in the tech business and now the new ones. In 1969, the DOJ went after IBM, Big Blue and it's 13 years later, dropped its suit. And then in 1984 the government broke Ma Bell apart and in the late 1990s, went after Microsoft, I think it was 1998 in the Wintel monopoly. And recently in an interview with tech journalist, Kara Swisher, the FTC chair Lena Khan claimed that the government played a major role in moderating the power of tech giants historically. And I think she even specifically referenced Microsoft or maybe Kara did and basically said the industry and consumers from the dominance of companies like Microsoft. So Dave, let's briefly talk about and Kara by the way, didn't really challenge that, she kind of let it slide. But let's talk about each of these and test this concept a bit. Were the government actions in these instances necessary? What were the outcomes and the consequences? Maybe you could start with IBM and AT&T. >> Yeah, it's a big topic and there's a lot there and a lot of history, but I might just sort of introduce by saying for whatever reasons antitrust has been part of the entire information technology industry history from mainframe to the current period and that slide sort of gives you that. And the reasons for that are I think once that we sort of know the economies of scale, network effects, lock in safe choices, lot of things that explain it, but the good bit about that is we actually have so much history of this and we can at least see what's happened in the past and when you look at IBM and AT&T they both were massive antitrust cases. The one against IBM was dropped and it was dropped in as you say, in 1980. Well, what was going on in at that time, IBM was sort of considered invincible and unbeatable, but it was 1981 that the personal computer came around and within just a couple of years the world could see that the computing paradigm had change from main frames and minis to PCs lines client server and what have you. So IBM in just a couple of years went from being unbeatable, you can't compete with them, we have to break up with them to being incredibly vulnerable and in trouble and never fully recovered and is sort of a shell of what it once was. And so the market took care of that and no action was really necessary just by everybody thinking there was. The case of AT&T, they did act and they broke up the company and I would say, first question is, was that necessary? Well, lots of countries didn't do that and the reality is 1980 breaking it up into long distance and regional may have made some sense, but by the 1990 it was pretty clear that the telecom world was going to change dramatically from long distance and fixed wires services to internet services, data services, wireless services and all of these things that we're going to restructure the industry anyways. But AT& T one to me is very interesting because of the unintended consequences. And I would say that the main unintended consequence of that was America's competitiveness in telecommunications took a huge hit. And today, to this day telecommunications is dominated by European, Chinese and other firms. And the big American sort of players of the time AT&T which Western Electric became Lucent, Lucent is now owned by Nokia and is really out of it completely and most notably and compellingly Bell Labs, the Bell Labs once the world's most prominent research institution now also a shell of itself and as it was part of Lucent is also now owned by the Finnish company Nokia. So that restructuring greatly damaged America's core strength in telecommunications hardware and research and one can argue we've never recovered right through this 5IG today. So it's a very good example of the market taking care of, the big problem, but meddling leading to some unintended consequences that have hurt the American competitiveness and as we'll talk about, probably later, you can see some of that going on again today and in the past with Microsoft and Intel. >> Right, yeah, Bell Labs was an American gem, kind of like Xerox PARC and basically gone now. You mentioned Intel and Microsoft, Microsoft and Intel. As many people know, some young people don't, IBM unwillingly handed its monopoly to Intel and Microsoft by outsourcing the micro processor and operating system, respectively. Those two companies ended up with IBM ironically, agreeing to take OS2 which was its proprietary operating system and giving Intel, Microsoft Windows not realizing that its ability to dominate a new disruptive market like PCs and operating systems had been vaporized to your earlier point by the new Wintel ecosystem. Now Dave, the government wanted to break Microsoft apart and split its OS business from its application software, in the case of Intel, Intel only had one business. You pointed out microprocessors so it couldn't bust it up, but take us through the history here and the consequences of each. >> Well, the Microsoft one is sort of a classic because the antitrust case which was raging in the sort of mid nineties and 1998 when it finally ended, those were the very, once again, everybody said, Bill Gates was unstoppable, no one could compete with Microsoft they'd buy them, destroy them, predatory pricing, whatever they were accusing of the attacks on Netscape all these sort of things. But those the very years where it was becoming clear first that Microsoft basically missed the early big years of the internet and then again, later missed all the early years of the mobile phone business going back to BlackBerrys and pilots and all those sorts of things. So here we are the government making the case that this company is unstoppable and you can't compete with them the very moment they're entirely on the defensive. And therefore wasn't surprising that that suit eventually was dropped with some minor concessions about Microsoft making it a little bit easier for third parties to work with them and treating people a little bit more, even handling perfectly good things that they did. But again, the more market took care of the problem far more than the antitrust activities did. The Intel one is also interesting cause it's sort of like the AT& T one. On the one hand antitrust actions made Intel much more likely and in fact, required to work with AMD enough to keep that company in business and having AMD lowered prices for consumers certainly probably sped up innovation in the personal computer business and appeared to have a lot of benefits for those early years. But when you look at it from a longer point of view and particularly when look at it again from a global point of view you see that, wow, they not so clear because that very presence of AMD meant that there's a lot more pressure on Intel in terms of its pricing, its profitability, its flexibility and its volumes. All the things that have made it harder for them to A, compete with chips made in Taiwan, let alone build them in the United States and therefore that long term effect of essentially requiring Intel to allow AMD to exist has undermined Intel's position globally and arguably has undermined America's position in the long run. And certainly Intel today is far more vulnerable to an ARM and Invidia to other specialized chips to China, to Taiwan all of these things are going on out there, they're less capable of resisting that than they would've been otherwise. So, you thought we had some real benefits with AMD and lower prices for consumers, but the long term unintended consequences are arguably pretty bad. >> Yeah, that's why we recently wrote in Intel two "Strategic To Fail", we'll see, Okay. now we come to 2022 and there are five companies with anti-trust targets on their backs. Although Microsoft seems to be the least susceptible to US government ironically intervention at this this point, but maybe not and we show "The Cincos Comas Club" in a homage to Russ Hanneman of the show "Silicon Valley" Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon all with trillion dollar plus valuations. But meta briefly crossed that threshold like Mr. Hanneman lost a comma and is now well under that market cap probably around five or 600 million, sorry, billion. But under serious fire nonetheless Dave, people often don't realize the immense monopoly power that IBM had which relatively speaking when measured its percent of industry revenue or profit dwarf that of any company in tech ever, but the industry is much smaller then, no internet, no cloud. Does it call for a different approach this time around? How should we think about these five companies their market power, the implications of government action and maybe what you suggested more narrow action versus broad sweeping changes. >> Yeah, and there's a lot there. I mean, if you go back to the old days IBM had what, 70% of the computer business globally and AT&T had 90% or so of the American telecom market. So market shares that today's players can only dream of. Intel and Microsoft had 90% of the personal computer market. And then you look at today the big five and as wealthy and as incredibly successful as they've been, you sort of have almost the argument that's wrong on the face of it. How can five companies all of which compete with each other to at least some degree, how can they all be monopolies? And the reality is they're not monopolies, they're all oligopolies that are very powerful firms, but none of them have an outright monopoly on anything. There are competitors in all the spaces that they're in and increasing and probably increasingly so. And so, yeah, I think people conflate the extraordinary success of the companies with this belief that therefore they are monopolist and I think they're far less so than those in the past. >> Great, all right, I want to do a quick drill down to cloud computing, it's a key component of digital business infrastructure in his book, "Seeing Digital", Dave Moschella coined a term the matrix or the key which is really referred to the key technology platforms on which people are going to build digital businesses. Dave, we joke you should have called it the metaverse you were way ahead of your time. But I want to look at this ETR chart, we show spending momentum or net score on the vertical access market share or pervasiveness in the dataset on the horizontal axis. We show this view a lot, we put a dotted line at the 40% mark which indicates highly elevated spending. And you can sort of see Microsoft in the upper right, it's so far up to the right it's hidden behind the January 22 and AWS is right there. Those two dominate the cloud far ahead of the pack including Google Cloud. Microsoft and to a lesser extent AWS they dominate in a lot of other businesses, productivity, collaboration, database, security, video conferencing. MarTech with LinkedIn PC software et cetera, et cetera, Googles or alphabets of business of course is ads and we don't have similar spending data on Apple and Facebook, but we know these companies dominate their respective business. But just to give you a sense of the magnitude of these companies, here's some financial data that's worth looking at briefly. The table ranks companies by market cap in trillions that's the second column and everyone in the club, but meta and each has revenue well over a hundred billion dollars, Amazon approaching half a trillion dollars in revenue. The operating income and cash positions are just mind boggling and the cash equivalents are comparable or well above the revenues of highly successful tech companies like Cisco, Dell, HPE, Oracle, and Salesforce. They're extremely profitable from an operating income standpoint with the clear exception of Amazon and we'll come back to that in a moment and we show the revenue multiples in the last column, Apple, Microsoft, and Google, just insane. Dave, there are other equally important metrics, CapX is one which kind of sets the stage for future scale and there are other measures. >> Yeah, including our research and development where those companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars over the years. And I think it's easy to look at those numbers and just say, this doesn't seem right, how can any companies have so much and spend so much? But if you think of what they're actually doing, those companies are building out the digital infrastructure of essentially the entire world. And I remember once meeting some folks at Google, and they said, beyond AI, beyond Search, beyond Android, beyond all the specific things we do, the biggest thing we're actually doing is building a physical infrastructure that can deliver search results on any topic in microseconds and the physical capacity they built costs those sorts of money. And when people start saying, well, we should have lots and lots of smaller companies well, that sounds good, yeah, it's all right, but where are those companies going to get the money to build out what needs to be built out? And every country in the world is trying to build out its digital infrastructure and some are going to do it much better than others. >> I want to just come back to that chart on Amazon for a bit, notice their comparatively tiny operating profit as a percentage of revenue, Amazon is like Bezos giant lifestyle business, it's really never been that profitable like most retail. However, there's one other financial data point around Amazon's business that we want to share and this chart here shows Amazon's operating profit in the blue bars and AWS's in the orange. And the gray line is the percentage of Amazon's overall operating profit that comes from AWS. That's the right most access, so last quarter we were well over a hundred percent underscoring the power of AWS and the horrendous margins in retail. But AWS is essentially funding Amazon's entrance into new markets, whether it's grocery or movies, Bezos moves into space. Dave, a while back you collaborated with us and we asked our audience, what could disrupt Amazon? And we came up with your detailed help, a number of scenarios as shown here. And we asked the audience to rate the likelihood of each scenario in terms of its likelihood of disrupting Amazon with a 10 being highly likely on average the score was six with complacency, arrogance, blindness, you know, self-inflicted wounds really taking the top spot with 6.5. So Dave is breaking up Amazon the right formula in your view, why or why not? >> Yeah, there's a couple of things there. The first is sort of the irony that when people in the sort of regulatory world talk about the power of Amazon, they almost always talk about their power in consumer markets, whether it's books or retail or impact on malls or main street shops or whatever and as you say that they make very little money doing that. The interest people almost never look at the big cloud battle between Amazon, Microsoft and lesser extent Google, Alibaba others, even though that's where they're by far highest market share and pricing power and all those things are. So the regulatory focus is sort of weird, but you know, the consumer stuff obviously gets more appeal to the general public. But that survey you referred to me was interesting because one of the challenges I sort of sent myself I was like okay, well, if I'm going to say that IBM case, AT&T case, Microsoft's case in all those situations the market was the one that actually minimized the power of those firms and therefore the antitrust stuff wasn't really necessary. Well, how true is that going to be again, just cause it's been true in the past doesn't mean it's true now. So what are the possible scenarios over the 2020s that might make it all happen again? And so each of those were sort of questions that we put out to others, but the ones that to me by far are the most likely I mean, they have the traditional one of company cultures sort of getting fat and happy and all, that's always the case, but the more specific ones, first of all by far I think is China. You know, Amazon retail is a low margin business. It would be vulnerable if it didn't have the cloud profits behind it, but imagine a year from now two years from now trade tensions with China get worse and Christmas comes along and China just says, well, you know, American consumers if you want that new exercise bike or that new shoes or clothing, well, anything that we make well, actually that's not available on Amazon right now, but you can get that from Alibaba. And maybe in America that's a little more farfetched, but in many countries all over the world it's not farfetched at all. And so the retail divisions vulnerability to China just seems pretty obvious. Another possible disruption, Amazon has spent billions and billions with their warehouses and their robots and their automated inventory systems and all the efficiencies that they've done there, but you could argue that maybe someday that's not really necessary that you have Search which finds where a good is made and a logistical system that picks that up and delivers it to customers and why do you need all those warehouses anyways? So those are probably the two top one, but there are others. I mean, a lot of retailers as they get stronger online, maybe they start pulling back some of the premium products from Amazon and Amazon takes their cut of whatever 30% or so people might want to keep more of that in house. You see some of that going on today. So the idea that the Amazon is in vulnerable disruption is probably is wrong and as part of the work that I'm doing, as part of stuff that I do with Dave and SiliconANGLE is how's that true for the others too? What are the scenarios for Google or Apple or Microsoft and the scenarios are all there. And so, will these companies be disrupted as they have in the past? Well, you can't say for sure, but the scenarios are certainly plausible and I certainly wouldn't bet against it and that's what history tells us. And it could easily happen once again and therefore, the antitrust should at least be cautionary and humble and realize that maybe they don't need to act as much as they think. >> Yeah, now, one of the things that you mentioned in your piece was felt like narrow remedies, were more logical. So you're not arguing for totally Les Affaire you're pushing for remedies that are more targeted in scope. And while the EU just yesterday announced new rules to limit the power of tech companies and we showed the article, some comments here the regulators they took the social media to announce a victory and they had a press conference. I know you watched that it was sort of a back slapping fest. The comments however, that we've sort of listed here are mixed, some people applauded, but we saw many comments that were, hey, this is a horrible idea, this was rushed together. And these are going to result as you say in unintended consequences, but this is serious stuff they're talking about applying would appear to be to your point or your prescription more narrowly defined restrictions although a lot of them to any company with a market cap of more than 75 billion Euro or turnover of more than 77.5 billion Euro which is a lot of companies and imposing huge penalties for violations up to 20% of annual revenue for repeat offenders, wow. So again, you've taken a brief look at these developments, you watched the press conference, what do you make of this? This is an application of more narrow restrictions, but in your quick assessment did they get it right? >> Yeah, let's break that down a little bit, start a little bit of history again and then get to Europe because although big sweeping breakups of the type that were proposed for IBM, Microsoft and all weren't necessary that doesn't mean that the government didn't do some useful things because they did. In the case of IBM government forces in Europe and America basically required IBM to make it easier for companies to make peripherals type drives, disc drives, printers that worked with IBM mainframes. They made them un-bundle their software pricing that made it easier for database companies and others to sell their of products. With AT&T it was the government that required AT&T to actually allow other phones to connect to the network, something they argued at the time would destroy security or whatever that it was the government that required them to allow MCI the long distance carrier to connect to the AT network for local deliveries. And with that Microsoft and Intel the government required them to at least treat their suppliers more even handly in terms of pricing and policies and support and such things. So the lessons out there is the big stuff wasn't really necessary, but the little stuff actually helped a lot and I think you can see the scenarios and argue in the piece that there's little stuff that can be done today in all the cases for the big five, there are things that you might want to consider the companies aren't saints they take advantage of their power, they use it in ways that sometimes can be reigned in and make for better off overall. And so that's how it brings us to the European piece of it. And to me, the European piece is much more the bad scenario of doing too much than the wiser course of trying to be narrow and specific. What they've basically done is they have a whole long list of narrow things that they're all trying to do at once. So they want Amazon not to be able to share data about its selling partners and they want Apple to open up their app store and they don't want people Google to be able to share data across its different services, Android, Search, Mail or whatever. And they don't want Facebook to be able to, they want to force Facebook to open up to other messaging services. And they want to do all these things for all the big companies all of which are American, and they want to do all that starting next year. And to me that looks like a scenario of a lot of difficult problems done quickly all of which might have some value if done really, really well, but all of which have all kinds of risks for the unintended consequence we've talked before and therefore they seem to me being too much too soon and the sort of problems we've seen in the past and frankly to really say that, I mean, the Europeans would never have done this to the companies if they're European firms, they're doing this because they're all American firms and the sort of frustration of Americans dominance of the European tech industry has always been there going back to IBM, Microsoft, Intel, and all of them. But it's particularly strong now because the tech business is so big. And so I think the politics of this at a time where we're supposedly all this great unity of America and NATO and Europe in regards to Ukraine, having the Europeans essentially go after the most important American industry brings in the geopolitics in I think an unavoidable way. And I would think the story is going to get pretty tense over the next year or so and as you say, the Europeans think that they're taking massive actions, they think they're doing the right thing. They think this is the natural follow on to the GDPR stuff and even a bigger version of that and they think they have more to come and they see themselves as the people taming big tech not just within Europe, but for the world and absent any other rules that they may pull that off. I mean, GDPR has indeed spread despite all of its flaws. So the European thing which it doesn't necessarily get huge attention here in America is certainly getting attention around the world and I would think it would get more, even more going forward. >> And the caution there is US public policy makers, maybe they can provide, they will provide a tailwind maybe it's a blind spot for them and it could be a template like you say, just like GDPR. Okay, Dave, we got to leave it there. Thanks for coming on the program today, always appreciate your insight and your views, thank you. >> Hey, thanks a lot, Dave. >> All right, don't forget these episodes are all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search, "Breaking Analysis Podcast". Check out ETR website, etr.ai. We publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @davevellante. Comment on my LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante for Dave Michelle for "theCUBE Insights" powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (slow tempo music)

>>Everyone welcome back to the cubes, unstoppable domains partner showcase. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. This segment, this session is about expansion into Asia, Pacific and Europe for unstoppable domains. It's a hot start-up in the web three area, really creating a new innovation around NFTs crypto, single sign-on and digital identity giving users the power like they should. We've got two great guests, the Jod ramen head of Europe and Neil Katz on is Neil I, our head of Asia. So John Neil, welcome to this cube and let's talk about the expansion. It's not really expansion. The global economy is global, but showcase here about unstoppable was going to Europe. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks John. >>So we're living in a global world, obviously crypto blockchain, decentralized applications. You're starting to see mainstream adoption, which means the shift is happening. There are more apps coming and it means more infrastructure and things got to get easier, right? So, you know, reduce the steps it takes to do stuff makes the Wallace better. Give people more secure. Access can control the day. This is what unstoppable is all about. You guys are in the middle of it. You're on this wave. What is the potential of web three with unstoppable and in general in Asia and in Europe, >>I can go first. So now let's look at the Asia market. I mean, typically we see the us market, the Europe markets for typical web two.zero software and infrastructure is definitely the larger markets with us, typically accounting for about 60% and you know, Europe about 20 to 30% and Asia has always been small, but we see in this whole world of blockchain, crypto web three.zero Asia already has about 116 million users. They have more than 35 local exchanges. And if you really look at the number of countries in terms of the rate of adoption of many of the Asian countries, which probably would have never even heard of like Vietnam actually topping the list, right? One of the reasons that this is happening again, if you go through the Asian development banks, latest report, you have these gen Z's and millennials of that's 50% of the Asian population. >>And if you really look at 50% of the Asian population, that's 1.1 billion people out of the total, 1.8 billion gen Z and millennials that you have in the world. And these folks are digital native they're people. In fact, our mobile first and millennials. Many of us like myself at least are people who are digital. And 20% of the world's economy is currently digital and the rest 40 to 50%, which is going to happen. It's going to happen in the web three dot four world. And that's going to be driven by millennials and gen Zs. I think that's why this whole space is so exciting because it's being driven by the users by the new generation. I mean, that's my broad thought on this little thing. >>I want to just comment on Asia also in the other areas where mobile first came, you had the end, the younger demographics, absolutely driving the change because they're like, well, I don't want the old way. They've got, they can write, write from scratch at the beginning, they're using the technologies that has propelled the crypto world. I mean, that is absolutely true. Everyone's kind of seeing that. And that's now influencing some of these developer nations, like say in Europe, for instance, and even north America, I think years more advanced than north America in my opinion, but we'll get to that. Oh, so potential in Europe. So John could take us through your thoughts on as head of Europe for >>Absolutely so news, right? I think the issue is way ahead in terms of gen Z user golfing, critical Jordan was actually a distant second, but it's a rising tool that actually has the highest transaction. Like they will be retro or last year and a half. And you know, if you dig a bit deeper, I'd say, arguably, I think the opportunity in web three is perhaps the largest and perhaps it can mean the most withdrawal Jora for the last decade has been trailing behind Asia and north America when it comes to. But I think unicorns and I think that we can provide a step change opportunity. This belief for me, stems from the fact that Jordan on a seat, right? Like for example, GDPR is focused on enabling real data ownership. And I think I recently read a paper out of Stanford by Patrick Henson speaks about being the best bot paper, enabling patient sovereign. >>So what that means is you just spend tool the data they've been to the internet and they harness the value from it. And on one hand while, you know, verb is enabling that regulation that could bring that forward when she actually brings it into action. So I think with what enablement better regulation, and we'll see more hubs like the crypto valley in Switzerland popup that we're bring, I think normal regulation, the right regulation. We can expect what info capital for builder talent that then drives more adoption. So I think the prospects for Europe in terms of usage, as well as builders are quite right. >>Yeah. And I think also you guys are in areas where the cultural shift is so dramatic. You mentioned Asia that they have demographics. Even the entrepreneurial culture in Europe right now is booming. You look at all the venture back startups and the young generation building companies. And again, cloud computing is a big part of that as obviously. But look at compared to the United States, you go back 15 years ago, Europe was way behind on, on the startup scene. Now it's booming and pumping on all cylinders and kind of points at this cultural shift. It's almost like a generational, you know, it's like the digital hippies changing the world. You know, they're web three. It's kinda, I don't want to be web to web two is so old. You know, I don't want to do that. And it's all because it's changing, right? And there are things that inadequate with web two on the naming system, also the arbitrage around fake information, bots users being manipulated, and also, you know, merchandise and monetize through these portals. And that's, that's kind of ending. So talk about the dynamic of web two, three at those areas. You've got users and you've got companies who build applications, they're going to shift and be forced in our opinion, and want to get a reaction to that. Do you think applications are going to have to be web three or users will reject them? >>Yeah, I think I jumped in and I'm not Neil's sport. I think the, the back is built on Q principles, right? Decentralization or ship and compostability. And I think these are binary. So, you know, if, if I look far down the future, I don't see a future where you have just whipped V I think there's gonna be a coexistence or cooperation between bamboo companies. I think there's going to be a sliding scale to decentralization versus PlayStation similarity, you know, ownership. And I think users will find what works best for them in different contexts. I think what installed this link is potentially providing the identity system correctly and that's, we were powerful that account being better on blockchains, then the naming system we had for web, right? The, the identity system serve focus, Paul, taking that you as a personal identifier that, so blockchain to me mean they're attaching all kinds of attributes that define who you are, the physical and digital world, and then filling out information that you can transact on the basis of. And I think that users would as the or future, right with, you know, InBev to more of the users were essentially consumers or readers of the internet and in bed with more technology platforms taking shape and getting proliferation that you would see more than just being actually writers, publishers, and developers on the internet. And they were value owning the data and to harness the most model valuable. So I think a basketball with bonds, and I think that's the future. I see that >>Well, I think you put it very, very nicely. So the other thing you've covered most of the points, I think, but I'm seeing a lot of different things that are happening in the ground. I think a lot of the garments, a lot of the web two.zero players, the traditional banks, these guys are not sitting quiet on the blockchain space. There's a lot of pilots happening in the blockchain space, right? I'm mean I can give you real life examples. I mean, one of the biggest example is in my home state of Maharashtra and Mumbai is they actually partnered with the polygon MarTech, right? Actually built a private blockchain based capability to, you know, kind of deliver your COVID vaccination certificates with the QR code it. And that's the only way they could deliver that kind of volumes in that shorter time. But the kind of user control the user control the user has on the data that could only be possible because of blockchain. >>Of course, it's still private because it's healthcare data. Now, they still want to keep it, or, you know, something that's not fully on a blockchain, but that is something, a similarly view. There is a consortium of about nine banks who have actually been trying to work on making things like remittances or trade finance, much, much easier. I mean, remittances through a traditional web two.zero world is very, very costly. And especially in the Asian countries, but a lot of people from Southeast Asia work across the world and send back money home. It's a very costly and a time taking affair. So they have actually partnered and built a blockchain based capability. Again, in a pilot stage, we kind of reduce the transaction costs. Like for example, if we just look at the trade finance space where there are 14 million traders who do 2.4, $5 trillion of transaction, now they were able to actually reduce the time that it takes from eight to nine days to about two to three days. So to add onto what you're saying, I think these two worlds are going to meet and meet very soon. And when they meet what they need is a single digital identity, a human readable way of being able to send and receive and do commerce. I think that's where I see unstoppable domains, very nicely positioned to be able to integrate these two worlds. So that's, that's my thought on >>Great point. I was going to get into which industries and kind of what areas you see in your air and geographies, but it's a good point about saving time. I liked how you brought that up because in these new waves, you either got to reduce the steps. It takes to do something or save time, make it easy. And these are the, this is the successful formula in anything, whether it's an app or UI or whatever, but what specifically are they doing in your areas? And, and what about unstoppable? Are they attracted to, is it because of the identity? Is it because of the, the apps is because of the single sign on what is that? What is the reason that they're leaning in and unpacking this further into their pilots? >>Do you want to take that because >>I am having these dumping it'd be warranted. So I think, and let me clarify the question, John you're, you're talking about companies looking at departments of our production partner. >>Yeah. What are they seeing and what are they seeing as the value that these pilots we heard from Neil Canada around the, the, the financial industry and obviously gaming gaming's one it's obvious, huge financial healthcare. I mean, these are obviously verticals that are going to be heavily impacted in a positive way. Where, what are they seeing as the value what's getting them motivated to do these pilots? Why they, why they jumping in with, with both feet, if you will, on these projects, is it because it's saving money? Is it time? What, or, or both, is it ease of use? Is it the, is it the user's expectations trying to tease out how you guys see that evolving? >>Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the, the, this is still spaces. The movement is going very fast, but I think the space has been young. And right now a lot of these companies are seeing the potential that, that few offers. And I think the key dimensions, like the possibility isn't leadership ownership. So I think the key thing I'm seeing in you is these web companies seeing the momentum and looking to harness that book by enabling bridges web. One of the key trends in water has been FinTech. I think over the last five to six years, we'll have the Revolut and 26 platforms, new banks and super finance. So perhaps rising to the forefront and they are all enabling or connecting a page with them in some shape and form either any of them creating a crypto, some are launching their own native wallets. And these are essentially ways that they can one crack users. >>So the gen Z who are looking for war with finance to get them on board, but also to look to, you know, enable more adoption by data on users, one, not using these services that potentially create new revenue streams and, and create allocation of capital that they could not access to have access to otherwise. So I think that's one brand I'm seeing over here. I think the other key trend is in your use has been games. And again, that links are damaged. We have to, that is called the MetAware. So a lot of game companies are looking to step into game five, which is again, completely different. This is more work traditional game companies use use similarly metal versus we, again, worship creates a different business model and they see that users and gamers of the future were born to engage with that versus just being more eyes on the business of question or our ads. And I think that's something that they're, you know, becoming a bit off and quickly the space launching the one better versus, or are gained by applications or creating a comfortability with these, these, these, >>You know, I wanted to get it to this point, but I was going to ask about the community empowerment piece of this equation because she's identity is about the user's identity, which implies they're part of a community. Web three is very convenient community centric, but you mentioned gaming. I mean, people who have been watching the gaming world like ourselves, know that communities and marketplaces have been very active for years, many years, you know, over 15 years community, you know, games, currency in game activity has been out there. Right. But siloed within the games themselves. So now it seems that that paradigm is coming in and empowering all communities. Is this something that you guys see and agree with? And if so, what's different about that? What, how are our, how our communities being empowered? I guess that's the question. >>Yeah. I can maybe take that too. So, I mean, I've also heard of vaccine I'm in a 40% of their user base in Vietnam. And the average earning that a person makes in a month out of playing this game is more than the, you know, national daily or, you know, minimum wage that is there. Right. So that's the kind of potential actually going back as a combination of actually answering your earlier question, I think, or, and about what Sadat said, what's really unique in Asia is we still have a lot of unbanked people, right? So if you really look at the total unbanked population of the world, it's 1.6 billion and 24% of that as a nation, almost 375 million people are an issue. So these are people who do not have access to finance or credit. So the whole idea is how do we get these people on to a banking system on to peer peer, to peer lending out kind of peer to peer finance kind of capabilities? >>I think, you know, again, unstoppable domains kind of helps in that, right? If you just look@thepurethatthree.zero world and the complex, you know, technical way in which, you know, money or other crypto is transferred from one wallet to the other, it's very difficult for an un-banked person who probably cannot even do basic communication, cannot read and write, but actually be able to do it, but something that's very human readable, something that's very easy for him to understand something that's visual, something that he can see on his mobile with, you know, two G network. We are not talking of the world is talking about 5g, but there are parts of Asia which are still using two G and you know, two point 5g kind of network. Right? So I think that's one key use case. I think the banks are trying to solve because for them, this is a whole new customer segment. >>And sorry, I actually went back a little bit to your earlier question, but you know, coming back to this whole community building, right? So on March 8th, we're launching something called us women of web 3.0, that is three. This is basically to again, empower. So if you, again, look at Asia, you know, women, you know, need a lot of training. They need a lot of enablement for them to be able to leverage the power of that three.zero. I can talk about India because being from India, a lot of the women do not, you know, they, they do all the, you know, small businesses, but the money is not taken by middlemen or taken by their husbands, but fundamentally the money comes to them because that's what they use to educate their children. And it's the same thing in a lot of other, Southeast Asian countries as well. I think it's very important to build those communities or communities of women entrepreneurs. I think this is a big opportunity to really get the section of society, which probably, you know, will take 10 more years. If we go for the normal one to web two.zero progression where the power is with corporations and not with the individual. >>And that's a great announcement, by the way, you mentioned the $10 million worth of domains being issued out for this is democratization is what it's all about. Again, this is, you know, a new revolution. I mean, this is a new thing, so great stuff, more education, more learning, and can get the banks up and running, get those people banking because once they're banking, they get wallets, right? So they need the wallet. So let's get to the real meat here. You guys are in the territory, Europe and Asia, where there's a lot of wallets. There's a lot of exchanges because that's, they're not in the United States is few of them there, but most of them outside the United States and you got a lot of di apps developing, you know, decentralized applications. Okay. So you've got all this coming together and your territory, what's the strategy is that what's the strategy. How are you gonna attack that? You've got the wallets, you've got the exchanges and you've got D applications. You, >>Yeah. so I think just quickly there, I think one point is the Neil very expressive, beautifully is the final conclusion that that is something that has been inspired me, how better we can make it more inclusive that inspired mine. Yeah. I think for us, I think when a bit at the base star, when it comes to your right and the, the key focus in, in, in terms of our approach would be that the more do two dates, one, we want increase the utility of these domains. And the second thing is we weren't via proliferation with, with, with our partners. So when I speak on utility, I think utility is when you have a universe like depart, which is a domain name, and then you have these attributes around it, right? What, what that defines your identity. So in, in the context in Europe, we would look to find partners to help us enrich that identity around the domain name. >>And that adds value for users in terms of acquiring new leads and new blinds. And all the other element comes proliferation. I think it's about working with all those crypto and participants, as well as the adjacent companies, parents services who can help us educate current and future upcoming three users about the utility of domain names and help us onboard them to the, the. So I think that's going to be the general focus. I think the key is that as well, and hopefully it will be having watch regulation, you that allow us to do this at a visual level, but at the outset, I think it's going to be tackling it. Can't be by, can't be identified on this where there's deeper, better patient for and then making sure that we are partnering with local project partners that are demanding for local communities there. So, yeah, that's my view in, >>Oh, I think, yeah. So again, in Asia, once you have a significant part of Manatee living in Asia, right? So obviously I know obviously all the other challenges and the opportunities that we talk about, I think the first area of focus would be educating the people on the massive opportunity that they can not, they have, and if you're able to get them in early, I think it's great for them as well, right? Because by the time, you know, governments regulations and a large banking financial companies move, but if we can get the larger population or, you know, into this whole space, it's, it's good for them. So they are first movers in that space. I think we're doing a lot of things on this worldwide. I think we have done more than a hundred Pasco podcast, just educating people on water's web feed or, or, you know, waters, what are NFP domains, what is defy and, you know, so on and so forth. >>I think it would need some bit of localization customization in Asia, given that, you know, India itself has about 22 languages. And then there are the other countries which each of them have their own local languages and, you know, syntax, semantics and all those things. So I think that that is very important to be able to disseminate the knowledge or though it's it's global. But I think to get the grassroot people to understand the opportunity, I think it would need some amount of work that I think also building communities. I think John, you talked about communities so that such I'd talk about communities. I think it's very important to build communities because communities create ideation. It talks about people share their challenges so that people don't repeat the same mistakes. Also. I think it's very important to build communities based on impressed. I think we all know in the technology world, you can build communities and on telegram, telegram, discard, Twitter spaces and all those things. >>But, you know, again, when we're talking about financial inclusion, we're talking of a different kind of community building. I think that that would be important. And then of course I will, you know, kind of primarily from a company perspective, I think getting the 35 odd exchanges in Asia, the wallets to partner with us, just as an example, you know, they hired till September of last year, about 3,500 apps in just one quarter at double two, 7,000 tabs on their platform. But that is the pace or the speed of innovation that we are seeing on this whole, you know, three dot old space. I think it's very important to get those key partners. We're developing those dots or see the power of single sign on having a human readable, digital identity, being able to seamlessly transfer your assets, digital assets across multiple crypto's across multiple NFT when the market places and so on. So >>Yeah, and I think the whole community thing too is also you seeing the communities being part of certainly in the entertainment area and the artistry creator world, the users are part of the community own it too. So it goes both ways, but this brings up the marketplace too, as well, because you ha you guys have the opportunity to have trust built into the software layer, right? So now you can keep the reputation data. You don't, you can be anonymous, but it's trustworthy versus bots, which we all know bots can be killed and then started again with, and no one knows what the timeline has been around. So, you know, the whole inadequacy of web too, which is just growing pains, right? This is what it'll evolution looks like, you know, next to them, traction layer. So I love that vibe. How advanced do you think that thinking is where people are saying, Hey, we need this abstraction layer. We need this digital identity. We need to start expanding our applications so that the users can move across these and break down those silos where the data is cause that's, this is like the problem, right? It's the data silos that are holding it back. What'd you guys' reaction to that? The, the killing the silos and making it horizontally scalable. >>Yeah, I think it's, it's not problem. It is a problem of people who understand technology. It's a problem of a lot of the people in the business who want to compete effectively against those giants, which are holding all the data. So I think those are the people who will innovate and move again, coming back to financial inclusion, coming back to the unbanked and those guys just want to do their business. They want to live their daily life. I think that's not where you'll see, you will see innovation in a different form, but they're not going to disrupt the disruptors. I think that would be the people that are fintechs. I think they would be the first to move on to something like that. I mean, that's my humble opinion. >>Absolutely. I, I got you on creators, right? So like I said earlier, right, we are heading for a future where more creators on the internet, whether you're publishing, writing something, you're creating video content. And that means that the data they own, because that's their data, they're bringing it to the internet. That's more powerful, more useful, and they should be reprocessed on that basis. So I think people are recognizing that and they've been using the proposal and as they do that, they were warranties systems that enabled them to work permissions with data. They will want to be able to control what the permission and what they want to provide, adapt. And at the end of the day, you know, these applications have to work backwards from customers and keep the customers looking for, but that then, and ask where passport for >>The users want freedom. They want to be able to be connected and not be restricted. They want to freely move around the global internet and do whatever they want with the friends and apps that they want to consume and not feel arbitrage. They don't want to feel like they're kind of nailed into a walled garden and, you know, stuck there and having to come back. It's the new normal. If >>They don't want to be the, they don't want to be the product. They >>Don't want to be the perfect gentlemen. Great to have you on great conversation. We're going to continue this later. Certainly want to keep the updates coming. You guys are in a very hot area in Europe and Asia Pacific. That's where a lot of the action is happening. We see the entrepreneurial activity, the business transformation, certainly with the new paradigm shift and this big wave that's coming. It's here. It's mainstream. Thanks for coming on, sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for the opportunity. >>Great conversation. All the actions moving and happening real fast. This is the cube unstoppable debates partner showcase with I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

(gentle music) >> Okay. We're back at AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage. This is day four. Think it's the first time, at re:Invent, we've done four days. This is our ninth year covering re:Invent. Tom Miller is here. He's the senior vice president of alliances. And he's joined by Ankur Jain, who's the global cloud practice lead at Merkle. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Tom, tell us about Merkel, for those who might not be familiar with you. >> Yeah. So, Merkle is a customer experience management company that is under the dentsu umbrella. Dentsu is a global media agency. We represent one of the pillars, which is customer experience management. And they also have media and creative. And what Merkle does is provide that technology to help bring that creative and media together. >> So you're a tech company? >> Yes. >> Right? Okay. So there's some big tailwinds, changes, trends going on in the market. Obviously, the pandemic, the forced march to digital, there's regulation. What are some of the big waves that you guys are seeing, that you're trying to ride? >> So what we're seeing is, as a start, we've got a lot of existing databases with clients that are on-prem, that we manage today, within a SQL environment or so forth. And they need to move that to a cloud environment. To be more flexible, more agile, provide them with more data, be able to follow that customer experience that they want with their clients, that they're all realizing they need, to be in a digital environment. And so, that's a big push for us working with AWS and helping move our clients into that cloud environment. >> And you're relatively you new to the AWS world, right? Maybe you can talk about that, Ankur. >> Well, actually, as a partner, we may be new. But Merkle has been working with AWS for over five years. >> Dave Vellante: As a customer? >> As a customer. >> Yeah. >> So what we did was, last year, we formalized the relationship with AWS to be an advanced partner now. So we are part of the re:Stack program, basically, which is a pool of very select partners. And Merkel comes in with the specialization of marketing. So, as Tom said, you know, we are part of a dentsu umbrella. Our core focus is on customer experience transformation. And how we do that customer experience transformation is through digital transformation, data transformation. And that's where we see AWS being a very good partner to us, to modernize the solutions that Merkle can take to the market. >> So, I mean, your on-prem databases, there's probably a lot of diversity on-prem. (laughs) A lot of tech... When the cloud, you know, more agility, infinite resources. Do you have a tech stack? Are you more of an integrator? Right tool for the right job? Maybe you could describe your technical philosophy. >> Yeah, I could take that. What Tom just described... So let me give you some perspective on what these databases are. These databases are, essentially, Merkle helping big brands, Fortune 100, Fortune 500 brands to modernize their marketing ecosystem. Especially, MarTech ecosystem. So these databases, they house customer touchpoints, customer data from disparate sources. And they, basically, integrate that data in one central place. And then bolt-on analytics, data science, artificial intelligence, machine learning, on top of it. Helping them with those email campaigns or direct mail campaigns, social campaigns. So that's what these databases are all about. And these databases, currently, sit on-prem, on Merkle's own data center. And we have a huge opportunity to kind of take those databases and modernize them. Give all these AI, ML type of capabilities, advanced analytic capabilities, to our customers by using AWS as the platform to kind of migrate that. >> Dave Vellante: And you do that as a service? >> We do that as a service. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Strategically, >> Yes. >> you're sort of transforming your business- >> Yes. >> to help your customers transform their business. >> Right. >> Right? Take away, it's classic. I mean, it's happening. This theme of, you know, AWS started with taking away the undifferentiated heavy lifting for infrastructure. Now you're seeing Nasdaq, Goldman Sachs, you guys in the media world, essentially building your own clouds, right? That's the strategy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> Superclouds, we call 'em. >> Superclouds, yeah. (Dave laughs) It's about helping our clients understand what is it they're trying to accomplish. And, for the most part, they're trying to understand the customer journey, where that customer is, how they're driving that experience with them, and understanding that experience through the journey. And doing that in the cloud makes it tremendously easier and more economical for 'em. >> Yeah, I was listening to the Snowflake earnings call from last night. And they were talking about, you know, a couple of big verticals, one being media. And all they keep talking about was direct-to-consumer, right? You're hearing that a lot. >> Ankur Jain: Yes. >> Media companies want to interact and build community directly. They don't want to necessarily, I mean, you don't want to go through a third-party anymore, if you don't have to. Technology's enabling that, right? Is that, kind of, the play here? >> Yes. Direct-to-consumer is a huge play. Companies which were traditionally brick-and-mortar-based, or relied on a supply chain of dealers and distributors, are now, basically, transforming themselves to be direct-to-consumer. They want to sell directly to the consumer. Personalization becomes a big theme, especially in D2C type of environment. Because, now, those customers are expecting brands to know what's their like, what's their dislike, which products, which services are they interested in. So that's all kind of advanced analytics, machine learning powered solutions. These are big data problems, that all these brands are kind of trying to solve. That's where Merkle is partnering with AWS, to bring all those technologies, and build those next generation solutions for our customers. >> So what kind of initiatives are you working on with AWS? >> So, there are, like, three, four areas that we are working very closely with AWS. Number one, I would say, think about our marketer's friend. You know, and they have a transformation like direct-to-consumer, omnichannel, e-commerce, these type of capabilities in mind. But they don't know where to start. What tools, what technologies will be part of that ecosystem. So that's where Merkle provides consulting services. To give them a roadmap, give them recommendations on how to structure these big, large strategic initiatives. That's number one, we are doing in partnership with AWS. To reach out to our joint customers and help them transform those ecosystems. Number two, as Tom mentioned, migrations. You know, helping chief data officers, chief technology officers, chief marketing officers modernize their environment, by migrating them to cloud. Number three, Merkle has a solution called Merkury, which is essentially all about customer identity. How do we identify a customer across multiple channels? We are modernizing all that solution, making that available on AWS Marketplace for customers to, actually, easily use that solution. And number four, I would say is, helping them set up data foundation. That's through intelligent marketing data lake. You know, leveraging AWS technologies like Glue, Redshift, and actually modernize their data platforms. And number four is more around clean rooms. Which is, bring on your first-party data, join it with Amazon data, to see how those customers are behaving when they are making a purchase on Amazon.com. Which gives insight to these brands, to reshape their marketing strategy to those customers. So those are, like, four, five focus areas. >> No, it's good. So, I was going to ask you about the data and the data strategy. Like, who owns the data? You're kind of alchemists, that... Your clients have first-party data. >> Ankur Jain: Yes. >> And then you might recommend bringing in other data sources. >> Yes. >> And then you're sort of creating this new cocktail. Who owns the data? >> Well, ultimately, client owns the data, because that's their customer's data. To your point on, we help them enrich that data by bringing in third-party data, which is what we call as... So Merkle has a service called DataSource, which is essentially a collection of data that we acquire about customers. Their likes, their dislikes, their buying power, their interests. So we monetize all that data. And the idea is, to take those data assets and make them available on AWS Data Exchange. So that it becomes very easy for brands to use their first-party data, take this third-party data from Merkle, and then, segment their customers much more intelligently. >> And the CMO is your sort of ideal customer profile? >> Yeah. CMO is our main customer profile. And we'll work with the chief data officer, or we'll work with the chief technology officer. We bridge both sides. We can go technology and marketing, and bring them both together. So you have a CMO who's trying to solve for some type of issue. And you have a chief technology officer who wants to improve their infrastructure. And we know how to bring them together into a conversation and help both parties get what they want. >> And I suppose the chief digital officer fits in there too? >> Tom Miller: Yeah, he fits in there too. >> CGO, chief dig. officer, CMO. Sometimes, they're one in the same. Other times, they're mixed. >> Yep. Yep. >> I've seen CIOs and CDOs together. >> Yes. >> Sure. >> It's all data. >> It's all data. (Dave laughs) >> Yeah. Some of the roles that come into play, as Tom mentioned, and you mentioned, CIO, CTO, chief information officer, chief technology officer, chief data officer, more from the IT side. And then we have the CMOs, chief digital officers, from the marketing side. So the secret sauce that Merkle brings to the table is that we know the language, what IT speaks and what business speaks. So when we talked about the business initiatives, like direct-to-consumer, omnichannel, e-commerce, those are more business-driven initiatives. That's where Merkle comes in, to kind of help them with our expertise over the last 30 years, on how to run these strategic initiatives. And then, at the same time, how do we translate those strategic initiatives into IT transformation? Because it does require a lot of IT transformation to happen underneath. That's where AWS also helps us. So we kind of span across both sides of the horizon. >> So you've got data, you've got tools, you've got software, you've got expertise, that now, you're making that available as a service. Is that right? >> That's right. Yes. >> Yes. >> How far are you into that journey, of saasfying your business? >> Well, the cloud journey started almost, I would say, five to seven years ago at Merkle. >> Yeah. Where you began leveraging the cloud? >> That's right. >> Dave Vellante: And then the light bulb went off and- >> So cloud, again, we use cloud in multiple aspects. From general computing perspective, leveraging, you know, fully managed services that AWS offers. So that's one aspect, which is to bring in data from disparate sources, house it, analyze it, and derive intelligence. The second piece, on the cloud side, is SaaS offering, Software as a Service offerings, like Adobe, Salesforce, and other CDP platforms. So Merkle covers a huge spectrum, when it comes to cloud. >> And you got a combination, you have a consulting business, and also- >> So Merkle has multiple service lines. Consulting business is one of them. Where we can help them on how to approach these transformational initiatives, and give them blueprints and roadmaps and strategy. Then we can also help them understand what the customer strategy should be, so that they can market very intelligently to their end customers. Then we have a technology business, which is all about leveraging cloud and advanced analytics. Then we have a data business, the data assets that I was talking about, that we monetize. We have promotions and loyalty, we have media. So we cover multiple services. >> Dave Vellante: Quite a portfolio. >> Yes. >> You mentioned analytics a couple of times, how do you tie that back to the sales function? I would imagine your clients are increasingly asking for analytics, so they can manage their dashboards and make sure they're above the line. How is that evolving? >> Yeah. So that's a very important line. Because, you know, data is data, right? You bring in the data, but what you do with the data, how you ask questions and how you derive intelligence from it, because that's the actionable part. So, few areas. I'll give you one or two examples on how those analytics kind of come into picture. Let's imagine a brand which is trying to sell a particular product or a particular service to a set of customers. Now, who those set of customers are, you know, where they should target this, who their target customers are, what their demographics are, that's all done through analytics. And what I gave you is a very simple example. There are so many advanced examples, you know, that come into artificial intelligence, machine learning, those type of aspects as well. So analytics definitely play a huge role on how these brands need to sell, and personalize the offerings that they want to offer to the customers. >> Used to be, really, pure art, right? It's really becoming- >> Not any more, it's all data driven companies. (Tom laughs) >> It's "Moneyball." >> Yes. Exactly. (Dave laughs) >> Tom Miller: Exactly. >> There's, maybe, still a little bit of art in there, right? It doesn't hurt to have a little creative flair, still. >> Yes. >> But you got to go with the data. >> And that's where the expertise comes in, right? That's where the experience comes in. And how you take that science and combine it with the art, to present it to a end customer, that's exactly, you know, it's a combination. >> And we also take the time to educate our clients on how we're doing it. So it's not done in a black box, so they can learn and grow themselves. Where they may end up developing their own group to handle it, as opposed to outsourcing with Merkle. >> You got to teach 'em how to fish. Last question. Where do you see this in two to three years? Where do you want to take? >> I think future is cloud, AWS being the market leader. I think AWS has a huge role to play. We are very excited to be partners with AWS, I think it's a match made in heaven. AWS sales in, majority of the sales happen in IT. Our focus is marketing. I think if we can bring both the worlds together, I think that will be a very powerful story for us to tell. >> Yeah, that's good news for AWS. If a little of your DNA could rub off on them, it'd be good. >> Tom Miller: Yeah. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Thanks, Dave. >> It was great to see you. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Appreciate it. >> All right. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE. Day four, AWS re:Invent. We're theCUBE, the global leader in high-tech coverage. Be right back. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to the Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe For Success an industry conference and summit from Quancast on the demise of third-party cookies. We've got a great industry panel here to break it down. Chris Guenther, senior vice president global head of Programmatic at News Corp. Chris, thanks for coming on. Xiao Lin, managing director solutions at Xaxis, and Somer Simpson, vice president of product at Quancast stellar panel. Looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for coming on and chatting about the cookie conundrum. >> Thank you for having us. >> So, Chris, we'll start with you at News Corp obviously major publisher. Deprecation of third-party cookies affects everyone. You guys have a ton of traffic, ton of audience across multiple formats. Tell us about the impact to you guys and the reliance you guys had on them. And what are you going to do to prepare for this next level change? >> Sure. I mean, I think like everyone in this industry there is a, you know, a significant reliance and I think it's something that a lot talk about audience targeting, but obviously they realize that third party cookies pervasive across the whole ad tech ecosystem, MarTech stack. And so, you know, we have to think about, you know how that impact, you know, our vendor the vendors we work with, what it means in terms of our use cases across marketing, across advertising across site experience. So, you know, without a doubt, it's significant. But you know, we look at it as listen. It's disruptive in disruption and change is always a little scary, but overall it's a it's a long overdue reset. I mean, I think that, you know, our perspective is that the the cookies, as we all know, is it was a crutch, right? It's sort of a technology being used in way it shouldn't. And so, as we look at what's going to happen presumably after Jan 2022, then it's a good way to kind of fix on some bad practices practices that lead to data, leakage, practice sort of devalued for our perspective. Some of the, you know, we offered as, as publishers. And I think that this is a key thing is that we're not just looking to as we look through post gen world, not just kind of recreating the prior world. Because the prior world was flawed or I guess I could say the current world since it hasn't changed yet. But the current world is flawed. Let's not just replicate that. You know, let's make sure that third party cookies goes away other work around like fingerprinting and things like that, you know, also go away. So, you know, philosophically that's where our head's at. And so, you know, as we look at how we are preparing you look at sort of what are the core building blocks of preparing for this world. Obviously one of the key ones is privacy compliance. Like how do we treat our users with consent? You know, obviously are we aligned with the regulatory environments? You know, in some ways we're not looking just to Jan 2022 but Jan 2023, where there's going to be the majority of our audiences, we covered by regulation. And so I think from regulation up to data gathering, to data activation, all built around an internal identifier that we've developed that allows us to have a a consistent look at our user is whether they're logged in or obviously, anonymous. So it's really looking across all those components, across all our sites, and all in a privacy compliant way. So a lot of work to be done, a lot of work in progress but you know, we're excited about what's going on. >> I like how you framed it, you know, old world or next gen kind of the current situation is kind of flawed. And as you think about Programmatic, the concept is mind blowing and what needs to be done. So we'll come back to that because I think that original content view is certainly relevant. It's a huge investment, and you've got great content and audience consuming it. Xiao, from a major media standpoint get your perspective on the impact because you've got clients who want to get their message out in front of the audience at the right time, at the right place and the right context. Right? So yeah, privacy, you got consent and all of these things kind of boiling up how do you help clients prepare? Because now they can go direct to the consumer. You know, everyone, everyone has a megaphone now everyone's you know, everyone's here, everyone's connected. So how are you impacted by this new notion? >> You know, if the cookieless future was a tik tok dance, we'd be dancing right now and at least until the next year. This has been top of mind for us and our clients for quite some time. But I think as each day passes the picture becomes clearer and more in focus. The end of the third party cookie does not mean the end of Programmatic. So clients work with us in transforming their investments into real business outcomes based on our expertise and based on our tech. So we continue to be in a great position to lead, to educate, to partner, and to grow with them along this cookieless future. The impact will be all encompassing in changing the ways we do things now and also accelerating the things that we've already been building on. So we take it from the top. Planning will have a huge impact because it's going to start becoming more strategic around real business outcomes. We're omni-channel. So clients wants to drive outcomes through multiple touch points of a consumer's journey. Whether that's programmatic, whether that's as a cookie free environment like connected TV, out of home, audio, gaming, and so forth. So we're going to see more of these strategic holistic plans. Creative will have a lot of impact. It will start becoming more important with Creative testing, Creative insights, you know, Creative in itself is cookieless. So there will be more focus on how to drive a brand dialogue, to connect to consumers with less targeting, with less cookies. With the cohesiveness of holistic planning, Creative can align through multiple channels. And lastly, the role of AI will become increasingly important. You know, we've always looked to build our tech, our products, to compliment new and existing technology as well as the client's own data and tech stack to deliver these outcomes for them. And AI in its core is just taking inputted data and having an output of your desired outcomes. So input data could be DSP data beyond cookies such as browser, such as location, such as contextual, a publisher taking client's first party data, first party CRM data like store visitation sales site activity. And using that to optimize in real time regardless of what vendor or what channel we're on. So as we're learning more about this cookieless dance, we're helping our clients on the steps of it, and also introducing our own moves. >> That's awesome. Data is going to be a key value proposition, you know connecting in with content real time. Great stuff. Somer, with your background in journalism and you're the tech VP of product at Quancast. You have the keys to the kingdom over there. It's interesting, journalism is about truth you know, good content, original content. But now you have a data challenge, problem, opportunity on both sides, brands and publishers coming together. This is a data problem in a way. It's a tech stack, not so much just, you know getting the right ads to show up at the right place, the right time. It's really bigger than that now. What's your take on this? >> You know, I, so first I think that consumers already sort of accept that there is a reasonable value exchange, you know, for their data, in order to access free content. Right? And that's a critical piece for us to all kind of understand. Over the past. Yeah, probably two years, since even before the GDPR, we've been doing a ton of discovery with customers, both publishers and marketers. And so, you know, we kind of known this this cookie going away thing is, has been coming and you know, Google's announcement just kind of confirmed it. And it's been really really interesting since Google's announcement how the conversations have changed with our customers and other folks that we talk to. And I've almost gone from being like a product manager to a therapist because there's such an emotional response. From the marketer perspective, there's real fear there. There's like, Oh my God, how you know, it's not just about delivering ads. It's about how do I control frequency? How do I measure, you know, success? You know, because the technology has grown so much over the years to really give marketers the ability to deliver personalized, you know, advertising good content to consumers and be able to monitor it and control it so that it's not too, too intrusive. On the publisher perspective side, we see a slightly different response. It's more of a yes. Right? You know, we're taking back control and we're going to stop the data leakage. We're going to get the value back for our inventory. Both things are a good thing. But if it's not managed, it's going to be like ships passing in the night. Right? In terms of, you know, them coming together. Right? And that's the critical pieces that they have to come together. They have to get closer. You got to cut out a lot of like that LUMAscape in the middle so that they can talk to each other and understand what's the value exchange happening between marketers and publishers and how do we do that without cookies? >> Yeah. It's a fascinating, I love your insight there. I think it's so relevant. And it's got broader implications because, you know, if you look at how data is impacting some of these big structural changes and refactoring of industries look at cybersecurity, you know no one wants to share their data but now if they share, they get more insight more machine learning, benefit, more AI benefit. So now we have the sharing notion but that goes against counter the big guys that want a walled garden. They want to hoard all the data and control that to provide their own personalization. So you have this confluence of, hey I want to hoard the data and then now I want to share the data. So Chris and Homer, in the wheelhouse you've got original content and there's other providers out there. So is there the sharing model coming? with privacy and these kinds of services is the open come back again? How do you guys see this? The confluence of open versus walled gardens. Because you need the data to make machine learning good. >> I'll start off. I mean, listen, I think you have to give credit to the walled gardens I've created. And I think as we look as publishers, what are we offering to our clients? What are we offering to the buy-side? We need to be compelling. We shouldn't just be, obviously, as journalists I think that there is a case of, you know the importance of funding journalism. But ultimately we need to make sure we're meeting the the KPIs and the business needs of the buy-side. And I think around that, it is, you know there's sort of three core pillars to that. It's ease of access, it's scope of activation and targeting, and finally, measurable results. So as I think, as us, as an individual publisher of so we have multiple publications so we do have scale, but then in partnership with other publishers perhaps organizations like Prebid, you know I think we can, we're trying to address that. And I think we can offer something that's compelling and transparent in terms of what these results are. But obviously, you know, I want to make sure it's clear that transparent terms of results, but obviously where there's privacy in terms of the data. And I I think we've all heard about like data clean rooms, a lot of them out there flogging those wares. And I think there's something valuable, but you know I think it's who is sort of the right partner or partners, and ultimately who allows us to get as close as possible to the buy side. And so that we can share that data for targeting shared for perhaps for measurement, but obviously all in a privacy compliant way. >> Somer, what's your take on this? Because you talk about the future of the open internet democratization. The network effect that we're seeing in virality and across multiple omni-channels as Xiao pointed out, it's happening. That's the distribution now. So that's almost an open garden model. So it's like >> Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's, you know back in the day, you know, Nightrider who was the first group that I, that I worked for, you know each of those individual properties were not hugely valuable on their own from a digital perspective. but together as a unit, they became valuable. Right. And got a scale for advertisers. Now we're in a place where, you know, I kind of think that each of those big networks are going to have to come together and work together to compare in size to the, to the walled gardens. And yeah, this is something that we've talked about before, an open garden. I think that's the definitely the right route to take. And I agree with Chris. It's about publishers getting as close to the marketers as possible, working with the tech companies that enable them to do that, and doing so in a very privacy centric way. >> Xiao how do we bring the brands and agencies together to get ready for third-party cookies? Because there is a therapist moment here of it's going to be okay, the parachute will open. The future is not going to be as grim. It's a real opportunity, but if managed properly. What's your take on this? Is it just more first party data strategy? And what's your assessment of this? >> So we're collaborating right now with ball grants on how to distill very complex cookieless future you know, what's going to happen in the future. To six steps that we can take right now and marketers should take. The first step is gather Intel on what's working on your current campaign analyzing the data sets across cookie free environment. So you can translate those tactics eventually when the cookies do go away. So we have to look at things like temporal or time analysis. We can look at log level data. We can look at site analytics data. We can look at brand measurement tools and how Creative really impacts the campaign success. The second thing we can look at is geo-targeting strategies. The geo-targeting strategy has been underrated because the granularity and DL data could go down all the way to the local level, even beyond zip code. So for example, the census block data. And this is especially important for CPG brands. So we're working closely with the client teams to understand not only the online data, but the offline data and how we can utilize that in the future. We want to optimize investments around markets that are working, so strong markets, and then test in underperforming markets. The third thing we can look at is contextual. So contextual by itself is cookie free. We could build on small-scale usage to test and learn various keywords and content categories based sets, working closely with partners to find ways to leverage their data, to mimic audiences that you are trying to target right now with cookies. The fourth one is publisher data or publisher targeting. So working with your publishers that you have strong relationships with who can curate similar audiences using their own first party data and conducting RFIs to understand the scale and reach against your audience and your future roadmap. So work with your top publishers based on historical data to try to recreate your best strategies. The fifth thing, and I think this is very important, is first party data. That's going to matter more than ever in the cookieless future. Brands will need to think about how to access and develop the first party data starting with the consumer, seeing of value in exchange for the information it's a goldmine and understanding your consumer their intent, their journey. And you need a really great data sciences team to extract insights out of that data, which will be crucial. So partner with strategic onboarding vendors and vet their ability to accept first party data into a clean room environment for targeting, for modeling, for insights. And lastly, the sixth thing that we can do is begin inform prospecting by dedicating test budget to start gaining learnings about cookieless. One, one place that we can start, and it is under invested right now, is Safari and Firefox. They have been cookieless for quite some time. So you can start here and begin testing here. Work with your data scientist team to understand the right mixes to target and start exploring other channels outside of just programmatic cookies. Like CTV, digit auto home, radio, gaming, and so forth. So those are the six steps that we're taking right now with our clients to prepare and plan for the cookieless future. >> So, Chris, let's go back to you. What's the solution here? Is there one, is there multiple solutions? What's the future look like for a cookieless future? >> I think the one certain answer is there definitely is not just one solution. As we all know right now, there seems to be endless solutions, a lot of ideas out there, proposals when the W3C, work happening within other industry bodies, you know, private company solutions being offered. And you know, it's a little bit, it's enough to make everyone's head spin and to try to track it to understand it and understand the impact. And as a publisher, we're obviously, you know, a lot of people are knocking on our door, you know they're saying, hey, our solution is one that it's going to bring in lots of money. You know, all the buy-side is going to use it. This is the one like unlock all the spend. And it's our experience so far is that none of these solutions are, cause I think everyone's still testing and learning. No one on the buy side from our, from our knowledge is really committed to one or a few. It's all about a testing stage. I think that, you know, putting aside all that noise I think what matters the most to us as publishers, actually something Somer mentioned before. It's about control. You know, if we're going to work with a, you know, again outside of our sort of independent internal identifier work that we're doing, if we're going to work with an outside party or an outside approach, does it give us control >> As a publisher to ensure that it is, you know we control the, the data from our users, you know there isn't that data leakage, it's privacy compliant. You know, what information gets shared out there? What is it what's released within, you know within the bitstream? If it is something that's attached to a, someone, a declared user, a registered user that if that then is not somehow amplified or leverage off in another site in a way that is leveraging bit stream data or fingerprinting and going again. And so I think that the spirit of what we're trying to do in a post third party cookie world. And so those controls are critical. And I think to have those controls as publisher we have to be collectively be disciplined. And you know, what solutions that we sort of we test out and what we eventually adopt. But even when that adoption point arrives it definitely will not be one. There will be multiple because there's just too many cases to address. >> Great, great insight there from you guys at News Corp. Somer, let's get back to you. I want to get your thoughts. You've been in many waves of innovation, ups and downs. We're on a new one now. We talked about the open internet and democratization. Journalism is under a lot of pressure now but there's now a wave of quality people, really leaning in towards fighting misinformation, understanding truth and community and data is at the heart of it. What do you see as the new future for journalists to reward journalism? Is there a way, is there a path forward? >> So there's what I hope is going to happen. And then I'm just going to ignore what could, right. You know, there's a trend in market right now at a number of fronts, right? So there are marketers who are leaning in to wanting to spend their marketing dollars with quality journalists, focusing on BiPAC owned and operated, really leaning into supporting those businesses that have been and those publishers that have been ignored for years. I really hope that this trend continues. We are leaning into helping marketers curate that supply, right. And, and really, you know, speak with their dollars about the things that they support and value in market. So I'm hoping that that trend continues. And it's not just sort of like a marketing blip but we will do everything possible to kind of encourage that behavior and give people the information that they need to find. You know, truly high quality journalism. >> That's awesome. Chris, Xiao, Somer, thanks for coming on and sharing your insight on this panel on the cookieless future. Before we go, just quick summary, each of you if you don't mind just giving a quick sound bite or bumper sticker of what we can expect. If you had to throw a prediction for what's going to happen in the next 24 months. Chris, we'll start with you. >> It's going to be quite a ride. I think that's an understatement. I think that there, I wouldn't be surprised if if Google delays the change to the Chrome by a couple months. And may give the industry some much needed time. But no one knows, I guess, I guess I'm not except for someone somewhere, we are deep within Chrome. So I think we all have to operate in a way that changes that happen, changes that happen quickly. And it's going to cover across all facets of the industry, all facets of, you know, from advertising and marketing. So just be prepared. >> Okay. Xiao. Along those same lines, be prepared. Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. You know, we're all dancing in this together. I think for us, it's planning and preparing and also building on what we've already been working on. So omni-channel, AI, Creative, and I think clients will lean more into those different channels. >> Awesome. Somer, take us home. Last words. >> I think we're in the throwing spaghetti against the wall stage, right? So this is a time of discovery of leaning and trying everything out learning and iterating as fast as we possibly can. >> Awesome. And I love the cat in the background over your shoulder. I can't stop staring at your wonderful cat. Somer, thanks for coming on. Xiao, Chris, thanks for coming on this awesome panel industry breakdown of the Cookie Conundrum, a Recipe for Success data AI open the future is here. It's coming. It's coming fast. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching.