>> live from New York. It's the Q covering AWS Global Summit 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Welcome back. I'm stupid like co host Cory Quinn. And we're here at the end of a summit in New York City, where I'm really happy to welcome to the program first time guests, but somebody that has a nap, it's on my phone. So, Andy thing, who's the CEO of Door Dash, gave a great presentation this morning. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Absolutely happy to be here, guys. >> All right, so, you know, before we dig into the kind of your Amazon stack, bring us back. You talked about 2013. You know, your mission of the company will help empower local businesses. I think most people know, you know, door dash delivery from my local businesses. Whether that is a small place or, you know, chipotle o r like there. And I love little anecdote that you said the founders actually did the first few 100 deliveries, but it gives a little bit of the breath of the scope of the business now. >> Absolutely. I mean, when we started in 2013 you know, we started out of Ah dorm on Stanford campus and, like you said, we're doing the first couple 100 deliveries ourselves. But, you know, fast forwarding to today you were obviously at a much, much different level of scale. And I think one thing that I mentioned about it, Mikey No, a cz just We've been trying to keep up pays and more than doubling as a business every year. And it's a really fascinating industry that were in in the on demand delivery space in particular, I mean, Dara, the CEO of uber himself, said in May, which is a month and 1/2 ago. He said that you know, the food delivery industry may become bigger than a ride hailing industry someday. >> So just just one quick question on kind of food delivery. Because when I think back when I was in college, I worked at a food truck. It was really well known on campus, and there are people that 20 years later they're like stew. I remember you serving me these sandwiches, and I loved it in the community and we gather and we talk today on campus. Nobody goes to that place anymore, you know, maybe I know my delivery person more than I know the person that's making it. So I'm just curious about the relationship between local businesses and the people. How that dynamic changing the gig? Economy? I mean, yeah, you guys were right in the thick of it. No, it's a >> great question. I think. You know, for merchants, a lot of the things that we talk to them about it is you're actually getting access to customers who wouldn't even walk by your store in the first place. And I think that's something that they find to be very captivating. And it shows in the store sales data when they start partnering with the door dash. But we've also tried to building our products to really get customers to interact with the physical neighborhoods. Aaron the most concrete example of that as we launch a product called In Store in Star Pickup Chronic, where you can order online, skip the line and pick up the order yourself in the store, and I think a way we can build the AB experience around that, you know, you're gonna actually start building kind of a geospatial. Browse experience for customers with the door dash app, which means that they can get a little bit more familiarity with what's around them, as opposed to just kind of looking at it on their phones themselves. All right, >> so the logistics of this, you know, are not trivial. You talked about 325% order growth. You know, your database is billions of rose. You know, just the massive scale massive transaction. Therefore, you know, as a you know, your nap on. You know the scale you're at technology is pretty critical to your environment. So burgers inside that a little? >> Yeah. I mean, we're fortunate enough, and you and I are talking before the show. I mean, we're kind of born on the cloud way started off, actually on Roku. Uh, back in 2013 we adopted eight of us back in 2015. And there's just so many different service is that Amazon Web services has been able to provide us and they've added more overtime. I think the one that I talked about, uh was one that actually came out only in early 2018 which is the Aurora Post product. Um, we've been able to sail our databases scale up our analytics infrastructure. We've also used AWS for things like, you know, really time data streaming. They have the cloudwatch product where it gives us a lot of insight into the kind of our servers are behaving. And so the eight of us ecosystem in of itself is kind of evolving, and we feel like we've grown with them and they're growing with us. So it's been a great synergy over the past couple of years >> as you take a look at where you started and where you've wound up. Can you use that to extrapolate a little bit further? As far as what shortcomings you seeing today? That, ideally, would be better met by a cloud provider or at this point is it's such a simpatico relationship is you just alluded to where you just see effectively your continued to grow in the same simple directions just out of, I guess, happenstance. Yeah, it is a >> good question. I think there are some shortcomings. For example, eight of us just recently launched and chaos, which is their in house coffin solution. We're looking for something that's kind of a lot more vetted, right? So we're considering Do we adopt eight of us version or do we try to do it in house, or do we go with 1/3 party vendor? That's >> confidence. Hard to say no to these days. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, we want to make sure that we are building our infrastructure in a way that way, feel confident in can scale. I mean, with Aurora Post Chris, it's done wonders for us, but we've also kind of been the Pi. One of the pioneers were eight of us for scaling that product, and I think we got kind of lucky in some ways they're in terms of how it's been ableto pan out. But we want to make sure the stakes are a lot higher for us now. And so you know, when we have issues, millions of people face issues, so we want to make sure that we're being more thoughtful about it. Eight of us certainly has matured a lot over the past couple of years, but we're keeping our options open and we want to do what's best for our customers. Eight of us more often than not has a solution, but sometimes we have the you consider other solutions and consider the back that AWS may or may not. So some of the future problems. >> Oh yeah, it's, I think, that it's easy to overlook. Sometimes with something like a food delivery service. It's easy to make jokes about it about what you're too lazy to cook something. And sure, when I was younger, absolutely then I had a child. And when she wasn't going to sleep when she was a baby, I only had one hand. How do I How do I feed myself? There's an accessibility story. People aren't able to easily leave the house, so it's not just people aren't able to get their wings at the right time. This starts becoming impacting for people. It's an important need. >> Yeah, and I think it's been awesome to see just how quickly it's been adopted. And I think another thing about food delivery that you know people don't necessarily remember about today is it was Premier Li, just the very dense urban area phenomenon, like obviously in Manhattan, where we are today who delivers existed forever. But the suburbs is where the vast, vast majority of the growth of the industry has been and you know It's just awesome to see how this case has flourished with all different kinds of people. >> I have to imagine there's a lot of analytics that are going on for some of these. You said. In the rural areas, the suburban areas you've got, it's not as dense. And how do you make sure you optimize for people that are doing so little? So what are some of the challenges you're facing their in house technology helping? >> Exactly? Yeah. I mean, with our kind of a business, it's really important for us again to the lowest level of detail, right? Just cause we're going through 100 25% year on year in 2019 maybe we're growing faster in certain parts of the United States and growing slower and others, and that's definitely the case. And so, uh, one of the awesome things that we've been able to leverage from our cloud infrastructure is just the ability to support riel, time data access and our business operators across Canada. In the United States, they're constantly trying to figure out how are we performing relative to the market in our particular locality, meaning not just, you know, the state of New York. But Manhattan, in which district in Manhattan. Um, all that matters with a business like ours. Where is this? A hyper local economy? And so I think the real time infrastructure, particularly with things like with Aurora the faster up because we're able to actually get a lot of Reed. It's too these red because because it's not affecting our right volume. So that's been really powerful. And it's allowed our business operators to just really run in Sprint. >> So, Andy, I have to imagine just data is one of the most important things of your business. How do you look at that as an asset is their, You know, new things. That new service is that you could be putting out there both for the merchants as well for the customers. Absolutely. I think one of >> the biggest ones we try to do is you know, we never give merchant direct access to the customer data because we want to protect the customer's information, but we do give them inside. That's how they can increase their sales and target customers. I haven't used them before, So one of the biggest programs we launched over the past few years is what we call Try me free so merchants can actually target customers who've never place an order from their store before and offer them a free delivery for their order from that store. So that's a great way for merchants acquire new customers. And it's simple concept for them to understand. And over time we definitely want to be able to personalize the ability to target the sort of promotions on. So we have a lot of data to do that on. We also have data in terms of what customers like what they don't like in terms of their order behavior in terms of how they're raiding the food, the restaurant. So that kind of dynamic is something that is pretty interesting Data set for us to have. You know, you look at a other local companies out there like Yelp, Google Maps. They don't actually have verified transaction information, whereas we d'oh. So I think it's really powerful. Merchants actually have that make decisions. >> It's a terrific customer experience. It almost seems to some extent to be aligned with the Amazons Professor customer obsession leadership principle to some extent, and the reason I bring that up is you mentioned you started on Hiroko and then in 2015 migrated off to AWS. Was it a difficult decision for you to decide first to eventually go all in on a single provider? And secondly, to pick AWS as that provider It wasn't >> a hard decision for us to go to. Ah, no cloud provider. That was, you know, ready to like showtime. It's a hero is more of a student project kind of scale at that time. I don't know what they're doing today. Um, but I think a doubt us at the time was still very, very dominant and that we're considering Azure and G C P. I think was kind of becoming a thing back then made of us. It was always the most mature, and they've done a great job of keeping their lead in this space. Uh, Google, an azure have cropped up. Obviously, Oracle clouds coming up Thio and were considered I mean, we consider the capabilities of something like Google Cloud their machine. Learning soft service is a really powerful. They actually have really sophisticated, probably more so than a W s kubernetes service is actually more sophisticated. I guess it's built in house at Google. That makes sense. But, you know, we've considered landscape out there, but AWS has served a lot of our knees up to this point. Um, and I think it's gonna be a very dynamic industry with the cloud space. And there's so much at stake for all these different companies. It's fascinating to just be a part of it and kind of leverage. It >> s o nd I'm guessing, you know, when you look at some of your peers out there and you know, when a company files in s one and every goes, Oh, my God, Look at their cloud, Bill. You know, how do you look at that balance? You send your keynote this morning. You know, you like less than a handful of engineers working on the data infrastructure. So you know that line Item of cloud you know, I'm guessing is nontrivial from your standpoint. So how do you look at that? Internally is how do you make sure you keep control and keep flexibility and your options Yet focus on your core business and you know not, you know, that the infrastructure piece >> of it that was such a great question, because it's something that way we think about that trade off a lot. Obviously. In the early days, what really mattered ultimately is Do we have product market bid? Do we have? Do we have something that people will care about? Right. So optimizing around costs obviously was not prudent earlier on. Now we're in a such a large scale, and obviously the bills very big, uh, that, you know, optimizing the cost is very real thing, um, and part of what keeps, you know, satisfied with staying on one provider is kind of a piece of set up. And what you already have figured there? Um and we don optimization is over the years wear folks on financing now who basically looking at Hey, where are areas were being extremely inefficient. Where are areas that we could do? Bookspan, this is not just on AWS with is on all our vendors. Obviously eight of us is one of our biggest. I'm not the biggest line item there. Um, and we just kind of take it from there, and there's always trade offs you have to make. But I know there's companies out there that are trying to sell the value proposition of being ableto optimize your cloud span, and that is definitely something that there's a lot of. I'm sure there's a lot of places to cut costs in that we don't know about. And so, yeah, I think that's something that way we're being mindful of. >> Yeah, it's a challenge to you See across the board is that there's a lot of things you can do programmatically with a blind assessment of the bill. But without business inside, it becomes increasingly challenging. And you spoke to it yourself. Where you're not going to succeed or fail is a business because the bill winds up getting too high. Unless you're doing something egregious, it's a question of growth. It's about ramping, and you're not gonna be able to cost optimize your way to your next milestone unless something is very strange with your business. So focusing on it in due course is almost always the right answer. >> Yeah, I mean, when I think about increasing revenue or deep recent costs nine times out of 10 we're trying to provide more value, right, so increasing revenues, usually they go to option for us, but they're sometimes where it's obvious. Hey, there's a low hanging fruit and cutting costs, and if it's relatively straightforward to do, then let's do it. I think with all the cloud infrastructure that we've been able to build on top of, we've been able to focus a lot of our energy and efforts on innovating, building new things, cementing our industry position. And, yeah, I think it's been awesome. On top >> of what? Want to give you the final word? Any addressing insights in your business? You know, it's like I like food and I like eating out and, you know, it feels like, you know, we've kind of flatten the world in lot is like, You know, I think it was like, uh, like, 556 years ago. The first time I went white and I got addressed to Pok. Everybody in California knows, okay, but I live on the East Coast now. I've got, like, three places within half an hour of me that I could get it. So you know those kind of things. What insight to you seeing you know what's changing in the marketplace? What? What's exciting you these >> days? Yeah, I mean, for us, we've definitely seen phenomenon where different food trans kind of percolate across different areas. I'm going to start in one region and then spread out across the entire United States or even Canada. I would say I don't way try to have as much emergence election on a platform. It's possible so that no matter what the new hot hottest trend is that more likely than not, we're gonna have what you want on the platform. And I think what's really exciting to us over the next couple years is you know, last year we actually started way started satisfying grocery delivery. So, uh, in fact, we power a lot of grocery deliveries for Walmart today, which is exciting, and a lot of other grocers lined up as well. We're gonna see how far we can take our logistics capabilities from that standpoint, But really, we want to want to have as many options as possible for our customers. >> Anything. Thanks so much for joining us. Congressional Congratulations on the progress with your death for Cory Quinn. I'm stupid and we'll be back here with more coverage from eight of US summit in New York City. 2019. Thanks is always watching. Cute

>> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got a variety of interviews across the gamut from topics, women in tech, mentoring, pipelining, developers, open source, executives. Stanford's having International Women's Day celebration with the women in data science, which we're streaming that live as well. Variety of programs. In this segment, Meagen Eisenberg, friend of theCUBE, she's the CMO of Laceworks, is an amazing executive, got a great journey story as a CMO but she's also actively advising startups, companies and really pays it forward. I want to say Meagen, thank you for coming on the program and thanks for sharing. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. >> Well, we're going to get into some of the journey celebrations that you've gone through and best practice what you've learned is pay that forward. But I got to say, one of the things that really impresses me about you as an executive is you get stuff done. You're a great CMO but also you're advised a lot of companies, you have a lot of irons in the fires and you're advising companies and sometimes they're really small startups to bigger companies, and you're paying it forward, which I love. That's kind of the spirit of this day. >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. When I think about my career, a lot of it was looking to mentors women out in the field. This morning I was at a breakfast by Eileen and we had the CEO of General Motors on, and she was talking about her journey nine years as a CEO. And you know, and she's paying it forward with us. But I think about, you know, when you're advising startups, you know, I've gathered knowledge and pattern recognition and to be able to share that is, you know, I enjoy it. >> Yeah. And the startups are also fun too, but it's not always easy and it can get kind of messy as you know. Some startups don't make it some succeed and it's always like the origination story is kind of rewritten and then that's that messy middle. And then it's like that arrows that don't look like a straight line but everyone thinks it's great and you know, it's not for the faint of heart. And Teresa Carlson, who I've interviewed many times, former Amazon, now she's the president of Flexport, she always says, sometimes startups on certain industries aren't for the faint of heart so you got to have a little bit of metal, right? You got to be tough. And some cases that you don't need that, but startups, it's not always easy. What have you learned? >> Yeah, I mean, certainly in the startup world, grit, creativity. You know, when I was at TripActions travel company, pandemic hits, nobody's traveling. You cut budget, you cut heads, but you focus on the core, right? You focus on what you need to survive. And creativity, I think, wins. And, you know, as a CMO when you're marketing, how do you get through that noise? Even the security space, Lacework, it's a fragmented market. You've got to be differentiated and position yourself and you know, be talking to the right target audience and customers. >> Talk about your journey over the years. What have you learned? What's some observations? Can you share any stories and best practices that someone watching could learn from? I know there's a lot of people coming into the tech space with the generative AI things going on in Cloud computing, scaling to the edge, there's a lot more aperture for technical jobs as well as just new roles and new roles that haven't, you really don't go to college for anymore. You got cybersecurity you're in. What are some of the things that you've done over your career if you can share and some best practices? >> Yeah, I think number one, continual learning. When I look through my career, I was constantly reading, networking. Part of the journey is who you're meeting along the way. As you become more senior, your ability to hire and bring in talent matters a lot. I'm always trying to meet with new people. Yeah, if I look at my Amazon feed of books I've bought, right, it kind of chronicle of my history of things I was learning about. Right now I'm reading a lot about cybersecurity, how the, you know, how how they tell me the world ends is the one I'm reading most recently. But you've got to come up to speed and then know the product, get in there and talk to customers. Certainly on the marketing front, anytime I can talk with the customer and find out how they're using us, why they love us, that, you know, helps me better position and differentiate our company. >> By the way, that book is amazing. I saw Nicole speak on Tuesday night with John Markoff and Palo Alto here. What a great story she told there. I recommend that book to everyone. It goes in and she did eight years of research into that book around zero day marketplaces to all the actors involved in security. And it was very interesting. >> Yeah, I mean, it definitely wakes you up, makes you think about what's going on in the world. Very relevant. >> It's like, yeah, it was happening all the time, wasn't it. All the hacking. But this brings me, this brings up an interesting point though, because you're in a cybersecurity area, which by the way, it's changing very fast. It's becoming a bigger industry. It's not just male dominated, although it is now, it's still male dominated, but it's becoming much more and then just tech. >> Yeah, I mean it's a constantly evolving threat landscape and we're learning, and I think more than ever you need to be able to use the data that companies have and, you know, learn from it. That's one of the ways we position ourselves. We're not just about writing rules that won't help you with those zero day attacks. You've got to be able to understand your particular environment and at any moment if it changes. And that's how we help you detect a threat. >> How is, how are things going with you? Is there any new things you guys got going on? Initiatives or programs for women in tech and increasing the range of diversity inclusion in the industry? Because again, this industry's getting much wider too. It's not just specialized, it's also growing. >> Yes, actually I'm excited. We're launching secured by women, securedbywomen.com and it's very much focused on women in the industry, which some studies are showing it's about 25% of security professionals are women. And we're going to be taking nominations and sponsoring women to go to upcoming security events. And so excited to launch that this month and really celebrate women in security and help them, you know, part of that continual learning that I talked about, making sure they're there learning, having the conversations at the conferences, being able to network. >> I have to ask you, what inspired you to pursue the career in tech? What was the motivation? >> You know, if I think way back, originally I wanted to be on the art side and my dad said, "You can do anything as long as it's in the sciences." And so in undergrad I did computer science and MIS. Graduated with MIS and computer science minor. And when I came out I was a IT engineer at Cisco and you know, that kind of started my journey and decided to go back and get my MBA. And during that process I fell in love with marketing and I thought, okay, I understand the buyer, I can come out and market technology to the IT world and developers. And then from there went to several tech companies. >> I mean my father was an engineer. He had the same kind of thing. You got to be an engineer, it's a steady, stable job. But that time, computer science, I mean we've seen the evolution of computer science now it's the most popular degree at Berkeley we've heard and around the world and the education formats are changing. You're seeing a lot of people's self-training on YouTube. The field has really changed. What are some of the challenges you see for folks trying to get into the industry and how would you advise today if you were talking to your young self, what would you, what would be the narrative? >> Yeah, I mean my drawback then was HTML pages were coming out and I thought it would be fun to design, you know, webpages. So you find something you're passionate about in the space today, whether it's gaming or it's cybersecurity. Go and be excited about it and apply and don't give up, right? Do whatever you can to read and learn. And you're right, there are a ton of online self-help. I always try to hire women and people who are continual learners and are teaching themselves something. And I try to find that in an interview to know that they, because when you come to a business, you're there to solve problems and challenges. And the folks that can do that and be innovative and learn, those are the ones I want on my team. >> It's interesting, you know, technology is now impacting society and we need everyone involved to participate and give requirements. And that kind of leads my next question for you is, like, in your opinion, or let me just step back, let me rephrase. What are some of the things that you see technology being used for, for society right now that will impact people's lives? Because this is not a gender thing. We need everybody involved 'cause society is now digital. Technology's pervasive. The AI trends now we're seeing is clearly unmasking to the mainstream that there's some cool stuff happening. >> Yeah, I mean, I think ChatGPT, think about that. All the different ways we're using it we're writing content and marketing with it. We're, you know, I just read an article yesterday, folks are using it to write children's stories and then selling those stories on Amazon, right? And the amount that they can produce with it. But if you think about it, there's unlimited uses with that technology and you've got all the major players getting involved on it. That one major launch and piece of technology is going to transform us in the next six months to a year. And it's the ability to process so much data and then turn that into just assets that we use and the creativity that's building on top of it. Even TripActions has incorporated ChatGPT into your ability to figure out where you want when you're traveling, what's happening in that city. So it's just, you're going to see that incorporated everywhere. >> I mean we've done an interview before TripAction, your other company you were at. Interesting point you don't have to type in a box to say, I'm traveling, I want a hotel. You can just say, I'm going to Barcelona for Mobile World Congress, I want to have a good time. I want some tapas and a nice dinner out. >> Yes. Yeah. That easy. We're making it easy. >> It's efficiency. >> And actually I was going to say for women specifically, I think the reason why we can do so much today is all the technology and apps that we have. I think about DoorDash, I think about Waze you know, when I was younger you had to print out instructions. Now I get in the car real quick, I need to go to soccer practice, I enter it, I need to pick them up at someone's house. I enter it. It's everything's real time. And so it takes away all the things that I don't add value to and allows me to focus on what I want in business. And so there's a bunch of, you know, apps out there that have allowed me to be so much more efficient and productive that my mother didn't have for sure when I was growing up. >> That is an amazing, I think that actually illustrates, in my opinion, the best example of ChatGPT because the maps and GPS integration were two techs, technologies merged together that replace driving and looking at the map. You know, like how do you do that? Like now it's automatically. This is what's going to happen to creative, to writing, to ideation. I even heard Nicole from her book read said that they're using ChatGPT to write zero day exploits. So you seeing it... >> That's scary stuff. You're right. >> You're seeing it everywhere. Super exciting. Well, I got to ask you before you get into some of the Lacework things that you're involved with, cause I think you're doing great work over there is, what was the most exciting projects you've worked on in your career? You came in Cisco, very technical company, so got the technical chops, CSMIS which stands for Management of Information Science for all the young people out there, that was the state of the art back then. What are some of the exciting things you've done? >> Yeah, I mean, I think about, I think about MongoDB and learning to market to developers. Taking the company public in 2017. Launching Atlas database as a service. Now there's so much more of that, you know, the PLG motion, going to TripActions, you know, surviving a pandemic, still being able to come out of that and all the learnings that went with it. You know, they recently, I guess rebranded, so they're Navan now. And then now back in the security space, you know, 14 years ago I was at ArcSite and we were bought by HP. And so getting back into the security world is exciting and it's transformed a ton as you know, it's way more complicated than it was. And so just understanding the pain of our customers and how we protect them as is fun. And I like, you know, being there from a marketing standpoint. >> Well we really appreciate you coming on and sharing that. I got to ask you, for folks watching they might be interested in some advice that you might have for them and their career in tech. I know a lot of young people love the tech. It's becoming pervasive in our lives, as we mentioned. What advice would you give for folks watching that want to start a career in tech? >> Yeah, so work hard, right? Study, network, your first job, be the best at it because every job after that you get pulled into a network. And every time I move, I'm hiring people from the last job, two jobs before, three jobs before. And I'm looking for people that are working hard, care, you know, are continual learners and you know, add value. What can you do to solve problems at your work and add value? >> What's your secret networking hack or growth hack or tip that you can share? Because you're a great networker by the way. You're amazing and you do add a lot of value. I've seen you in action. >> Well, I try never to eat alone. I've got breakfast, I've got lunch, I've got coffee breaks and dinner. And so when I'm at work, I try and always sit and eat with a team member, new group. If I'm out on the road, I'm, you know, meeting people for lunch, going for dinner, just, you know, don't sit at your desk by yourself and don't sit in the hotel room. Get out and meet with people. >> What do you think about now that we're out of the pandemic or somewhat out of the pandemic so to speak, events are back. >> Yes. >> RSA is coming up. It's a big event. The bigger events are getting bigger and then the other events are kind of smaller being distributed. What's your vision of how events are evolving? >> Yeah, I mean, you've got to be in person. Those are the relationships. Right now more than ever people care about renewals and you are building that rapport. And if you're not meeting with your customers, your competitors are. So what I would say is get out there Lacework, we're going to be at RSA, we're going to be at re:Inforce, we're going to be at all of these events, building relationships, you know, coffee, lunch, and yeah, I think the future of events are here to stay and those that don't embrace in person are going to give up business. They're going to lose market share to us. >> And networking is obviously very key on events as well. >> Yes. >> A good opportunity as always get out to the events. What's the event networking trick or advice do you give folks that are going to get out to the networking world? >> Yeah, schedule ahead of time. Don't go to an event and expect people just to come by for great swag. You should be partnering with your sales team and scheduling ahead of time, getting on people's calendars. Don't go there without having 100 or 200 meetings already booked. >> Got it. All right. Let's talk about you, your career. You're currently at Lacework. It's a very hot company in a hot field, security, very male dominated, you're a leader there. What's it like? What's the strategies? How does a woman get in there and be successful? What are some tricks, observations, any data you can share? What's the best practice? What's the secret sauce from Meagen Eisenberg? >> Yes. Yeah, for Meagen Eisenberg. For Lacework, you know, we're focused on our customers. There's nothing better than getting, being close to them, solving their pain, showcasing them. So if you want to go into security, focus on their, the issues and their problems and make sure they're aware of what you're delivering. I mean, we're focused on cloud security and we go from build time to run time. And that's the draw for me here is we had a lot of, you know, happy, excited customers by what we were doing. And what we're doing is very different from legacy security providers. And it is tapping into the trend of really understanding how much data you have and what's happening in the data to detect the anomalies and the threats that are there. >> You know, one of the conversations that I was just having with a senior leader, she was amazing and I asked her what she thought of the current landscape, the job market, the how to get promoted through the careers, all those things. And the response was interesting. I want to get your reaction. She said interdisciplinary skills are critical. And now more than ever, the having that, having a set of skills, technical and social and emotional are super valuable. Do you agree? What's your reaction to that and what would, how would you reframe that? >> Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. You can't be a leader without balance. You've got to know your craft because you're developing and training your team, but you also need to know the, you know, how to build relationships. You're not going to be successful as a C-level exec if you're not partnering across the functions. As a CMO I need to partner with product, I need to partner with the head of sales, I need to partner with finance. So those relationships matter a ton. I also need to attract the right talent. I want to have solid people on the team. And what I will say in the security, cybersecurity space, there's a talent shortage and you cannot hire enough people to protect your company in that space. And that's kind of our part of it is we reduce the number of alerts that you're getting. So you don't need hundreds of people to detect an issue. You're using technology to show, you know, to highlight the issue and then your team can focus on those alerts that matter. >> Yeah, there's a lot of emerging markets where leveling up and you don't need pedigree. You can just level up skill-wise pretty quickly. Which brings me to the next question for you is how do you keep up with all the tech day-to-day and how should someone watching stay on top of it? Because I mean, you got to be on top of this stuff and you got to ride the wave. It's pretty turbulent, but it's still growing and changing. >> Yeah, it's true. I mean, there's a lot of reading. I'm watching the news. Anytime something comes out, you know, ChatGPT I'm playing with it. I've got a great network and sharing. I'm on, you know, LinkedIn reading articles all the time. I have a team, right? Every time I hire someone, they bring new information and knowledge in and I'm you know, Cal Poly had this learn by doing that was the philosophy at San Luis Obispo. So do it. Try it, don't be afraid of it. I think that's the advice. >> Well, I love some of the points you mentioned community and network. You mentioned networking. That brings up the community question, how could people get involved? What communities are out there? How should they approach communities? 'Cause communities are also networks, but also they're welcoming people in that form networks. So it's a network of networks. So what's your take on how to engage and work with communities? How do you find your tribe? If someone's getting into the business, they want support, they might want technology learnings, what's your approach? >> Yeah, so a few, a few different places. One, I'm part of the operator collective, which is a strong female investment group that's open and works a lot with operators and they're in on the newest technologies 'cause they're investing in it. Chief I think is a great organization as well. You've got a lot of, if you're in marketing, there's a ton of CMO networking events that you can go to. I would say any field, even for us at Lacework, we've got some strong CISO networks and we do dinners around you know, we have one coming up in the Bay area, in Boston, New York, and you can come and meet other CISOs and security leaders. So when I get an invite and you know we all do, I will go to it. I'll carve out the time and meet with others. So I think, you know, part of the community is get out there and, you know, join some of these different groups. >> Meagen, thank you so much for spending the time. Final question for you. How do you see the future of tech evolving and how do you see your role in it? >> Yeah, I mean, marketing's changing wildly. There's so many different channels. You think about all the social media channels that have changed over the last five years. So when I think about the future of tech, I'm looking at apps on my phone. I have three daughters, 13, 11, and 8. I'm telling you, they come to me with new apps and new technology all the time, and I'm paying attention what they're, you know, what they're participating in and what they want to be a part of. And certainly it's going to be a lot more around the data and AI. I think we're only at the beginning of that. So we will continue to, you know, learn from it and wield it and deal with the mass amount of data that's out there. >> Well, you saw TikTok just got banned by the European Commission today around their staff. Interesting times. >> It is. >> Meagen, thank you so much as always. You're a great tech athlete. Been following your career for a while, a long time. You're an amazing leader. Thank you for sharing your story here on theCUBE, celebration of International Women's Day. Every day is IWD and thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for having me. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto. Thank you for watching, more to come stay with us. (bright music)

>>Hello and run. Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here. Day three of Cube's coverage, two sets, wall to wall coverage. Third set upstairs in the Executive Briefing Center. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube with Dave Alon. Two other hosts here. Lot of action. Dave. The cheer here is the CEO of MongoDB, exclusive post on Silicon Angle for your prior to the event. Thanks for doing that. Great to see >>You. Likewise. Nice to see you >>Coming on. See you David. So it's great to catch up. Prior to the event for that exclusive story on ecosystem, your perspective that resonated with a lot of the people. The traffic on that post and comments have been off the charts. I think we're seeing a ecosystem kind of surge and not change over, but like a an and ISV and new platform. So I really appreciate your perspective as a platform ISV for aws. What's it like? What's this event like? What's your learnings? What's your takeaway from your customers here this year? What's the most important story going on? >>First of all, I think being here is important for us because we have so many customers and partners here. In fact, if you look at the customers that Amazon themselves announced about two thirds of those customers or MongoDB customers. So we have a huge overlap in customers here. So just connecting with customers and partners has been important. Obviously a lot of them are thinking about their plans going to next year. So we're kind of meeting with them to think about what their priorities are and how we can help. And also we're sharing a little bit of our product roadmap in terms of where we're going and helping them think through like how they can best use Mongadi B as they think about their data strategy, you know, going to next year. So it's been a very productive end. We have a lot of people here, a lot of sales people, a lot of product people, and there's tons of customers here. So we can get a lot accomplished in a few days. >>Dave and I always talk on the cube. Well, Dave always goes to the TAM expansion question. Expanding your total stressful market, the market is changing and you guys have a great position growing positioned. How do you look at the total addressable market for Mongo changing? Where's the growth gonna come from? How do you see your role in the market and how does that impact your current business model? >>Yeah, our whole goal is to really enable developers to think about Mongo, to be first when they're building modern applications. So what we've done is first built a fir, a first class transactional platform and now we've kind expanding the platform to do things like search and analytics, right? And so we are really offering a broad set of capabilities. Now our primary focus is the developer and helping developers build these amazing applications and giving them tools to really do so in a very quick way. So if you think about customers like Intuit, customers like Canva, customers like, you know, Verizon, at and t, you know, who are just using us to really transform their business. It's either to build new applications quickly to do things at a certain level of performance of scale they've never done before. And so really enabling them to do so much more in building these next generation applications that they can build anywhere else. >>So I was listening to McDermott, bill McDermott this morning. Yeah. And you listen to Bill, you just wanna buy from the guy, right? He's amazing. But he was basically saying, look, companies like he was talking about ServiceNow that could help organizations digitally transform, et cetera, but make money or save money or in a good position. And I said, right, Mongo's definitely one of those companies. What are those conversations like here? I know you've been meeting with customers, it's a different environment right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. I, I was talking to one of your customers said, yeah, I'm up for renewal. I love Mongo. I'm gonna see if they can stage my payments a little bit. You know, things like that. Are those conversations? Yeah, you know, similar to what >>You having, we clearly customers are getting a little bit more prudent, but we haven't seen any kind of like slow down terms of deal cycles or, or elongated sales cycles. I mean, obviously different customers in different sectors are going through different issues. What we are seeing customers think about is like how can I, you know, either drive more efficiency in my business like and big part of that is modernization of my existing legacy tech stack. How can maybe consolidate to a fewer set of vendors? I think they like our broad platform story. You know, rather than using three or four different databases, they can use MongoDB to do everything. So that that resonates with customers and the fact that they can move fast, right? Developer productivity is a proxy for innovation. And so being able to move fast to either seize new opportunities or respond to new threats is really, you know, top of mind for still C level executive. >>So can your software, you're right, consolidation is the number one way in which people are save money. Can your software be deflationary? I mean, I mean that in a good way. So >>I was just meeting with a customer who was thinking about Mongo for their transactional platform, elastic for the search platform and like a graph database for a special use case. And, and we said you can do all that on MongoDB. And he is like, oh my goodness, I can consolidate everything. Have one elegant developer interface. I can keep all the data in one place. I can easily access that data. And that makes so much more sense than having to basically use a bunch of peace parts. And so that's, that's what we're seeing more and more interest from customers about. >>So one of the things I want to get your reaction to is, I was saying on the cube, now you can disagree with me if you want, but at, in the cloud native world at Cuban and Kubernetes was going through its hype cycle. The conversation went to it's getting boring. And that's good cause they want it to be boring. They don't want people to talk about the run time. They want it to be working. Working is boring. That's invisible. It's good, it's sticky, it's done. As you guys have such a great sticky business model, you got a great install base. Mongo works, people are happy, they like the product. So it's kind of working, I won't wanna say boring cuz that's, it's irrelevant. What's the exciting things that Mongo's bringing on top of the existing base of product that is gonna really get your clients and prospects enthused about the innovation from Mongo? What's what cuz it's, it's almost like electricity in a way. You guys are very utility in, in the way you do, but it's growing. But is there an exciting element coming that you see that they should pay attention to? What's, what's your >>Vision that, right, so if you look back over the last 10, 15 years, there's been big two big platform shifts, mobile and cloud. I think the next big platform shift is from what I call dumb apps to smart apps. So building more intelligence into applications. And what that means is automating human decision making and embedding that into applications. So we believe that to be a fundamentally a developer problem to solve, yes, you need data scientist to build the machine learning algorithms to train the models. Yeah. But ultimately you can't really deploy, deployed at scale unless you give developers the tools to build those smart applications that what we focused on. And a big part of that is what we call application driven analytics where people or can, can embed that intelligence into applications so that they can instead rather having humans involved, they can make decisions faster, drive to businesses more quickly, you know, shorten it's short and time to market, et cetera. >>And so your strategy to implement those smart apps is to keep targeting the developer Yes. And build on that >>Base. Correct. Exactly. So we wanna essentially democratize the ability for any customer to use our tools to build a smart applications where they don't have the resources of a Google or you know, a large tech company. And that's essentially resonating with our customer base. >>We, we were talking about this earlier after Swami's keynote, is most companies struggle to put data at the core of their business. And I don't mean centralizing it all in a single place as data's everywhere, but, but really organizing their company and democratizing data so people can make data decisions. So I think what you're saying, essentially Atlas is the platform that you're gonna inject intelligence into and allow developers to then build applications that are, you know, intelligent, smart with ai, machine intelligence, et cetera. And that's how the ones that don't have the resources of a Google or an Amazon become correct the, that kind of AI company if >>You, and that's, that's the whole purpose of a developer data platform is to enable them to have the tools, you know, to have very sophisticated analytics, to have the ability to do very sophisticated indexes, optimized for analytics, the ability to use data lakes for very efficient storage and retrieval of data to leverage, you know, edge devices to be able to capture and synchronize data. These are all critical elements to build these next generation applications. And you have to do that, but you don't want to stitch together a thousand primitives. You want to have a platform to do that. And that's where we really focus. >>You know, Dave, Dave and I, three, two days, Dave and I, Dave Ante and I have been talking a lot about developer productivity. And one observation that's now validated is that developers are setting the pace for innovation. Correct? And if you look at the how they, the language that they speak, it's not the same language as security departments, right? They speak almost like different languages, developer and security, and then you got data language. But the developers are making choices of self-service. They can accelerate, they're driving the behavior behavior into the organizations. And this is one of the things I wrote about on Friday last week was the organizational changes are changing cuz the developers set the pace. You can't force tooling down their throat. They're gonna go with what's easy, what's workable. If you believe that to be true, then all the security's gonna be in the developer pipeline. All the innovations we've driven off that high velocity developer site, we're seeing success of security being embedded there with the developers. What are you gonna bring up to that developer layer that's going to help with security, help with maybe even new things, >>Right? So, you know, it's, it's almost a cliche to say now software is in the world, right? Because every company's value props is driven by, it's either enabled to find or created through software. What that really means is that developers are eating all the work, right? And you're seeing, you saw in DevOps, right? Where developers basically enro encroach into the ops world and made infrastructure a programmable interface. You see developers, to your point, encroaching in security, embedding more and more security features into their applications. We believe the same thing's gonna happen with data scientists and business analysts where developers are gonna embed that functionality that was done by different domains in the Alex world and embed that capability into apps themselves. So these applications are just naturally smarter. So you don't need someone to look at a dashboard and say, aha, there's some insight here now I need to go make a decision. The application will do that for you and actually make that decision for you so you can move that much more quickly to run your business either more efficiently or to drive more, you know, revenue. >>Well the interesting thing about your business is cuz you know, you got a lot of transactional activity going on and the data, the way I would say what you just described is the data stack and the application stacks are coming together, right? And you're in a really good position, I think to really affect that. You think about we've, we've operationalized so many systems, we really haven't operationalized our data systems. And, and particularly as you guys get more into analytics, it becomes an interesting, you know, roadmap for Mongo and your customers. How do you see that? >>Yeah, so I wanna be clear, we're not trying to be a data warehouse, I get it. We're not trying to be like, you know, go compete. In fact, we have nice partnership with data bricks and so forth. What we are really trying to do is enable developers to instrument and build these applications that embed analytics. Like a good analogy I'd use is like Google Maps. You think about how sophisticated Google Maps has, and I use that because everyone has used Google Maps. Yeah. Like in the old, I was old enough to print out the directions, map quest exactly, put it on my lap and drive and look down. Now have this device that tells me, you know, if there's a traffic, if there's an accident, if there's something you know, going will reroute me automatically. And what that app is doing is embedding real time data into, into its decision making and making the decision for you so that you don't have to think about which road to take. Right? You, you're gonna see that happen across almost every application over the next X number of years where these applications are gonna become so much smarter and make these decisions for you. So you can just move so much more quickly. >>Yeah. Talk about the company, what status of the company, your growth plans. Obviously you're seeing a lot of news and Salesforce co CEO just resigned, layoffs at cnn, layoffs at DoorDash. You know, tech unfortunately is not impacted, thank God. I'm not that too bad. Certainly in cloud's not impacted it is impacting some of the buying behavior. We talked about that. What's going on with the company head count? What's your goals? How's the team doing? What are your priorities? >>Right? So we we're going after a big, big opportunity. You know, we recognize, obviously the market's a little choppy right now, but our long term, we're very bullish on the opportunity. We believe that we can be the modern developer data platform to build these next generation applications in terms of costs. We're obviously being a little bit more judicious about where we're investing, but we see big, big opportunities for us. And so our overall cost base will grow next year. But obviously we also recognize that there's ways to drive more efficiency. We're at a scale now. We're a 1.2 billion business. We're gonna announce our Q3 results next week. So we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, what we're seeing in the business next week. But we, we think we're a business that's growing fast. You know, we grew, you know, over 50, 50% and so, so we're pretty fast growing business. Yeah. You see? >>Yeah, Tuesday, December 6th you guys announce Exactly. Course is a big, we always watch and love it. So, so what I'm hearing is you're not, you're not stepping on the brakes, you're still accelerating growth, but not at all costs. >>Correct. The term we're using is profitable growth. We wanna, you know, you know, drive the business in a way that we think continues to seize the opportunity. But we also, we always exercise discipline. You know, I, I'm old enough where I had to deal with 2000 and 2008, so, you know, seen the movie before, I'm not 28 and have not seen these markets. And so obviously some are, you know, emerging leaders have not seen these kinds of markets before. So we're kind of helping them think about how to continue to be disciplined. And >>I like that reference to two thousand.com bubble and the financial crisis of 2008. I mentioned this to you when we chat, I'd love to get your thoughts. Now looking back for reinvent, Amazon wasn't a force in, in 2008. They weren't really that big debt yet. Know impact agility, wasn't it? They didn't hit that, they didn't hit that cruising altitude of the value pro cloud agility, time of value moving fast. Now they are. So this is the first time that they're a part of the economic equation. You're on, you're on in the middle of it with Amazon. They could be a catalyst to recover faster if plan properly. What's your CEO take on just that general and other CEOs might be watching and saying, Hey, you know, if I play this right, I could leverage the cloud. You know, Adams is leading into the cloud during a recession. Okay, I get that. But specifically there might be a tactic. What's your view on >>That? I mean, what, what we're seeing the, the hyperscalers do is really continue to kind of compete at the raw infrastructure level on storage, on compute, on network performance, on security to provide the, the kind of the building blocks for companies like Monga Beach really build on. So we're leveraging that price performance curve that they're pushing. You know, they obviously talk about Graviton three, they're talking about their training model chip sets and their inference model chip sets and their security chip sets. Which is great for us because we can leverage those capabilities to build upon that. And I think, you know, if you had asked me, you know, in 2008, would we be talking about chip sets in 2022? I'd probably say, oh, we're way beyond that. But what it really speaks to is those things are still so profoundly important. And I think that's where you can see Amazon and Google and Microsoft compete to provide the best underlying infrastructure where companies like mongadi we can build upon and we can help customers leverage that to really build the next generation. >>I'm not saying it's 2008 all over again, but we have data from 2008 that was the first major tailwind for the cloud. Yeah. When the CFO said we're going from CapEx to opex. So we saw that. Now it's a lot different now it's a lot more mature >>I think. I think there's a fine tuning trend going on where people are right sizing, fine tuning, whatever you wanna call it. But a craft is coming. A trade craft of cloud management, cloud optimization, managing the cost structures, tuning, it's a crafting, it's more of a craft. It's kind of seems like we're >>In that era, I call it cost optimization, that people are looking to say like, I know I'm gonna invest but I wanna be rational and more thoughtful about where I invest and why and with whom I invest with. Versus just like, you know, just, you know, everyone getting a 30% increase in their opex budgets every year. I don't think that's gonna happen. And so, and that's where we feel like it's gonna be an opportunity for us. We've kind of hit scap velocity. We've got the developer mind share. We have 37,000 customers of all shapes and sizes across the world. And that customer crown's only growing. So we feel like we're a place where people are gonna say, I wanna standardize among the >>Db. Yeah. And so let's get a great quote in his keynote, he said, if you wanna save money, the place to do it is in the cloud. >>You tighten the belt, which belt you tightening? The marketplace belt, the wire belt. We had a whole session on that. Tighten your belt thing. David Chair, CEO of a billion dollar company, MongoDB, continue to grow and grow and continue to innovate. Thanks for coming on the cube and thanks for participating in our stories. >>Thanks for having me. Great to >>Be here. Thank. Okay, I, Dave ante live on the show floor. We'll be right back with our final interview of the day after this short break, day three coming to close. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> You got it, it's theCUBE. We are in Vegas. This is the Cube's live coverage day one of the full event coverage of AWS reInvent '22 from the Venetian Expo Center. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We love being in Vegas, Dave. >> Well, you know, this is where Super Cloud sort of was born. >> It is. >> Last year, just about a year ago. Steve Mullaney, CEO of of Aviatrix, you know, kind of helped us think it through. And we got some fun stories around. It's happening, but... >> It is happening. We're going to be talking about Super Cloud guys. >> I guess I just did the intro, Steve Mullaney >> You did my intro, don't do it again. >> Sorry I stole that from you, yeah. >> Steve Mullaney, joined just once again, one of our alumni. Steve, great to have you back on the program. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Dave: It's happening. >> It is happening. >> Dave: We talked about a year ago. Net Studio was right there. >> That was two years. Was that year ago, that was a year ago. >> Dave: It was last year. >> Yeah, I leaned over >> What's happening? >> so it's happening. It's happening. You know what, the thing I noticed what's happening now is the maturity of the cloud, right? So, if you think about this whole journey to cloud that has been, what, AWS 12 years. But really over the last few years is when enterprises have really kind of joined that journey. And three or four years ago, and this is why I came out of retirement and went to Aviatrix, was they all said, okay, now we're going to do cloud. You fast forward now three, four years from now, all of a sudden those five-year plans of evacuating the data center, they got one year left, two year left, and they're going, oh crap, we don't have five years anymore. We're, now the maturity's starting to say, we're starting to put more apps into the cloud. We're starting to put business critical apps like SAP into the cloud. This is not just like the low-hanging fruit anymore. So what's happening now is the business criticality, the scale, the maturity. And they're all now starting to hit a lot of limits that have been put into the CSPs that you never used to hit when you didn't have business critical and you didn't have that scale. They were always there. The rocks were always there. Just it was, you never hit 'em. People are starting to hit 'em now. So what's happening now is people are realizing, and I'm going to jump the gun, you asked me for my bumper sticker. The bumper sticker for Aviatrix is, "Good enough is no longer good enough." Now it's funny, it came in a keynote today, but what we see from our customers is it's time to upgrade the native constructs of networking and network security to be enterprise-grade now. It's no longer good enough to just use the native constructs because of a lack of visibility, the lack of controls, the lack of troubleshooting capabilities, all these things. "I now need enterprise grade networking." >> Let me ask you a question 'cause you got a good historical perspective on the industry. When you think about when Maritz was running VMWare. He was like any app, he said basically we're building a software mainframe. And they kind of did that, right? But then they, you know, hit the issue with scale, right? And they can't replicate the cloud. Are there things that we can draw from that experience and apply that to the cloud? What's the same, what's different? >> Oh yeah. So, 1992, do you remember what happened in 1992? I do this, weird German software company called SAP >> Yeah, R3. announced a release as R/3. Which was their first three-tier client-server application of SAP. Before that it ran on mainframes, TCP/IP. Remember that Protocol War? Guess what happened post-1992, everybody goes up like this. Infrastructure completely changes. Cisco, EMC, you name it, builds out these PCE client-server architectures. The WAN changes, MPLS, the campus, everything's home running back to that data center running SAP. That was the last 30 years ago. Great transformation of SAP. They've did it again. It's called S/4Hana. And now it's running and people are switching to S/4Hana and they're moving to the cloud. It's just starting. And that is going to alter how you build infrastructure. And so when you have that, being able to troubleshoot in hours versus minutes is a big deal. This is business critical, millions of dollars. This is not fun and games. So again, back to my, what was good enough for the last three or four years for enterprises no longer good enough, now I'm running business critical apps like SAP, and it's going to completely change infrastructure. That's happening in the cloud right now. And that's obviously a significant seismic shift, but what are some of the barriers that customers have been able to eliminate in order to get there? Or is it just good enough isn't good enough anymore? >> Barriers in terms of, well, I mean >> Lisa: The adoption. Yeah well, I mean, I think it's all the things that they go to cloud is, you know, the complexity, really, it's the agility, right? So the barrier that they have to get over is how do I keep the developer happy because the developer went to the cloud in the first place, why? Swipe the credit card because IT wasn't doing their job, 'cause every time I asked them for something, they said no. So I went around 'em. We need that. That's what they have to overcome in the move to the cloud. That is the obstacle is how do I deliver that visibility, that control, the enterprise, great functionality, but yet give the developer what they want. Because the minute I stop giving them that swipe the card operational model, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to go around me again and I can't, and the enterprise can't have that. >> That's a cultural shift. >> That's the main barrier they've got to overcome. >> Let me ask you another question. Is what we think of as mission critical, the definition changing? I mean, you mentioned SAP, obviously that's mission critical for operations, but you're also seeing new applications being developed in the cloud. >> I would say anything that's, I call business critical, same thing, but it's, business critical is internal to me, like SAP, but also anything customer-facing. That's business critical to me. If that app goes down or it has a problem, I'm not collecting revenue. So, you know, back 30 years ago, we didn't have a lot of customer-facing apps, right? It really was just SAP. I mean there wasn't a heck of a lot of cust- There were customer-facing things. But you didn't have all the digitalization that we have now, like the digital economy, where that's where the real explosion has come, is you think about all the customer-facing applications. And now every enterprise is what? A technology, digital company with a customer-facing and you're trying to get closer and closer to who? The consumer. >> Yeah, self-service. >> Self-service, B2C, everybody wants to do that. Get out of the middle man. And those are business critical applications for people. >> So what's needed under the covers to make all this happen? Give us a little double click on where you guys fit. >> You need consistent architecture. Obviously not just for one cloud, but for any cloud. But even within one cloud, forget multicloud, it gets worst with multicloud. You need a consistent architecture, right? That is automated, that is as code. I can't have the human involved. These are all, this is the API generation, you've got to be able to use automation, Terraform. And all the way from the application development platform you know, through Jenkins and all other software, through CICD pipeline and Terraform, when you, when that developer says, I want infrastructure, it has to go build that infrastructure in real time. And then when it says, I don't need it anymore it's got to take it away. And you cannot have a human involved in that process. That's what's completely changed. And that's what's giving the agility. And that's kind of a cloud model, right? Use software. >> Well, okay, so isn't that what serverless does, right? >> That's part of it. Absolutely. >> But I might still want control sometimes over the runtime if I'm running those mission critical applications. Everything in enterprise is a heterogeneous thing. It's like people, people say, well there's going to, the people going to repatriate back to on-prem, they are not repatriating back to on-prem. >> We were just talking about that, I'm like- >> Steve: It's not going to happen, right? >> It's a myth, it's a myth. >> And there's things that maybe shouldn't have ever gone into the cloud, I get that. Look, do people still have mainframes? Of course. There's certain things that you just, doesn't make sense to move to the new generation. There were things, certain applications that are very static, they weren't dynamic. You know what, keeping it on-prem it's, probably makes sense. So some of those things maybe will go back, but they never should have gone. But we are not repatriating ever, you know, that's not going to happen. >> No I agree. I mean, you know, there was an interesting paper by Andreessen, >> Yeah. >> But, I mean- >> Steve: Yeah it was a little self-serving for some company that need more funding, yeah. You look at the numbers. >> Steve: Yeah. >> It tells the story. It's just not happening. >> No. And the reason is, it's that agility, right? And so that's what people, I would say that what you need to do is, and in order to get that agility, you have to have that consistency. You have to have automation, you have to get these people out of the way. You have to use software, right? So it's that you have that swipe the card operational model for the developers. They don't want to hear the word no. >> Lisa: Right. >> What do you think is going to happen with AWS? Because we heard, I don't know if you heard Selipsky's keynote this morning, but you've probably heard the hallway talk. >> Steve: I did, yeah. >> Okay. You did. So, you know, connecting the dots, you know doubling down on all the primitives, that we expected. We kind of expected more of the higher level stuff, which really didn't see much of that, a little bit. >> Steve: Yeah. So, you know, there's a whole thing about, okay, does the cloud get commoditized? Does it not? I think the secret weapon's the ecosystem, right? Because they're able to sell through with guys like you. Make great margins on that. >> Steve: Yeah, well, yeah. >> What are your thoughts though on the future of AWS? >> IAS is going to get commoditized. So this is the fallacy that a lot of the CSPs have, is they thought that they were going to commoditize enterprise. It never happens that way. What's going to happen is infrastructure as a service, the lower level, which is why you see all the CSPs talking about what? Oracle Cloud, industry cloud. >> Well, sure, absolutely, yeah. >> We got to get to the apps, we got to get to SAP, we got to get to all that, because that's not going to get commoditized, right. But all the infrastructural service where AWS is king that is going to get commoditized, absolutely. >> Okay, so, but historically, you know Cisco's still got 60% plus gross margins. EMC always had good margin. How pure is the lone survivor in Flash? They got 70% gross margins. So infrastructure actually has always been a pretty good business. >> Yeah that's true. But it's a hell of a lot easier, particularly with people like Aviatrix and others that are building these common architectural things that create simplicity and abstract the way the complexities of underneath such that we allow your network to run an AWS, Azure, Google, Oracle, whatever, exactly the same. So it makes it a hell of a lot easier >> Dave: Super cloud. >> to go move. >> But I want to tap your brain because you have a good perspective of this because servers used to be a great margin business too on-prem and now it's not. It's a low margin business 'cause all the margin went to Intel. >> Yeah. But the cloud guys, you know, AWS in particular, makes a ton of dough on servers, so, or compute. So it's going to be interesting to see over time if that gets com- that's why they're going so hard after silicon. >> I think if they can, I think if you can capture the workload. So AWS and everyone else, as another example, this SAP, they call that a gravity workload. You know what gravity workload is? It's a black hole. It drags everything else with it. If you get SAP or Oracle or a mainframe app, it ain't going anywhere. And then what's going to happen is all your other apps are going to follow it. So that's what they're all going to fight for, is type of app. >> You said something earlier about, forget multicloud, for a moment, but, that idea of the super cloud, this abstraction layer, I mean, is that a real business value for customers other than, oh I got all these clouds, I need 'em to work together. You know, from your perspective from Aviatrix perspective, is it an opportunity for you to build on top of that? Or are you just looking at, look, I'm going to do really good work in AWS, in Azure? Now we're making the same experience. >> I hear this every single day from our customers is they look and they say, good enough isn't good enough. I've now hit the point, I'm hitting route limitations. I'm hitting, I'm doing things manually, and that's fine when I don't have that many applications or I don't have mission critical. The dogs are eating the dog food, we're going into the cloud and they're looking and then saying this is not an operational model for me. I've hit the point where I can't keep doing this, I can't throw bodies at this, I need software. And that's the opportunity for us, is they look and they say, I'm doing it in one cloud, but, and there's zero chance I'm going to be able to figure that out in the two or three other clouds. Every enterprise I talk to says multicloud is inevitable. Whether they're in it now, they all know they're going to go, because it's the business units that demand it. It's not the IT teams that demand it, it's the line of business that says, I like GCP for this reason. >> The driver's functionality that they're getting. >> It's the app teams that say, I have this service and GCP's better at it than AWS. >> Yeah, so it's not so much a cost game or the end all coffee mug, right? >> No, no. >> Google does this better than Microsoft, or better than- >> If you asked an IT person, they would rather not have multicloud. They actually tried to fight it. No, why would you want to support four clouds when you could support one right? That's insane. >> Dave and Lisa: Right. If they didn't have a choice and, and so it, the decision was made without them, and actually they weren't even notified until day before. They said, oh, good news, we're going to GCP tomorrow. Well, why wasn't I notified? Well, we're notifying you now. >> Yeah, you would've said, no. >> Steve: This is cloud bottle, let's go. >> Super cloud again. Did you see the Berkeley paper, sky computing I think they call it? Down at Berkeley, yep Dave Linthicum from Deloitte. He's talking about, I think he calls it meta cloud. It's happening. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It's happening. >> No, and because customers, customers want that. They... >> And talk about some customer example or two that you think really articulates the value of why it's happening and the outcomes that it's generating. >> I mean, I was just talking to Lamb Weston last night. So we had a reception, Lamb Weston, huge, frozen potatoes. They serve like, I dunno, some ungodly percentage of all the french fries to all the fast food. It's unbelievable what they do. Do you know, they have special chemicals they put on the french fries. So when you get your DoorDash, they stay crispy longer. They've invented that patented it. But anyway, it's all these businesses you've never heard of and they do all the, and again, they're moving to SAP or they're actually SAP in the cloud, they're one of the first ones. They did it through Accenture. They're pulling it back off from Accenture. They're not happy with the service they're getting. They're going to use us for their networking and network security because they're going to get that visibility and control back. And they're going to repatriate it back from a managed service and bring it back and run it in-house. And the SAP basis engineers want it to happen because they see the visibility and control that the infrastructure guy's going to get because of us, which leads to, all they care about is uptime and performance. That's it. And they're going to say the infrastructure team's going to lead to better uptime and better performance if it's running on Aviatrix. >> And business performance and uptime, business critical >> That is the business. That is the business. >> It is. So what are some of the things next coming down the pike from Aviatrix? Any secret sauce you can share? >> Lot of secrets. So, two secrets. One, the next thing people really want to do, embedded network security into the network. We've kind of talked about this. You're going to be seeing some things from us. Where does network security belong? In the network. Embedded in the fabric of the network, not as this dumb device called the next-gen firewall that you steer traffic to. It has to be into the fabric of what we do, what we call airspace. You're going to see us talk about that. And then the next thing, back to the maturity of the cloud, as they build out the core, guess what they're doing? It's this thing called edge, Dave, right? And guess what they're going to do? It's not about connecting the cloud to the edge to the cloud with dumb things like SD-WAN, right? Or SaaS. It's actually the other way around. Go into the cloud, turn around, look out at the edge and say, how do I extend the cloud out to the edge, and make it look like a VPC. That's what people are doing. Why, 'cause I want the operational model. I want all the things that I can do in the cloud out at the edge. And everyone knows it's been in networking. I've been in networking for 37 years. He who wins the core does what? Wins the edge, 'cause that's what happens. You do it first in the core and then you want one architecture, one common architecture, one consistent way of doing everything. And that's going to go out to the edge and it's going to look like a VPC from an operational model. >> And Amazon's going to support that, no doubt. >> Yeah, I mean every, you know, every, and then it's just how do you want to go do that? And us as the networking and network security provider, we're getting dragged to the edge by our customer. Because you're my networking provider. And that means, end to end. And they're trying to drag us into on-prem too, yeah. >> Lot's going on, you're going to have to come back- >> Because they want one networking vendor. >> But wait, and you say what? >> We will never do like switches and any of the keep Arista, the Cisco, and all that kind of stuff. But we will start sucking in net flow. We will start doing, from an operational perspective, we will integrate a lot of the things that are happening in on-prem into our- >> No halfway house. >> Copilot. >> No halfway house, no two architectures. But you'll take the data in. >> You want one architecture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, totally. >> Right play. >> Amazing stuff. >> And he who wins the core, guess what's more strategic to them? What's more strategic on-prem or cloud? Cloud. >> It flipped three years ago. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So he who wins in the clouds going to win everywhere. >> Got it, We'll keep our eyes on that. >> Steve: Cause and effect. >> Thank you so much for joining us. We've got your bumper sticker already. It's been a great pleasure having you on the program. You got to come back, there's so, we've- >> You posting the bumper sticker somewhere? >> Lisa: It's going to be our Instagram. >> Oh really, okay. >> And an Instagram sto- This is new for you guys. Always coming up with new ideas. >> Raising the bar. >> It is, it is. >> Me advance, I mean, come on. >> I love it. >> All right, for our guest Steve Mullaney and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

(gentle music) >> Good morning from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE live at AWS Reinvent 2022 with tons of thousands of people today. Really kicks off the event. Big keynote that I think is probably just wrapping up. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. Dave, this is going to be an action packed week on theCUBE no doubt. We talked with so many different companies. Every company's a software company these days but we're also seeing a lot of companies leaving software that can help them operate more efficiently in the background. >> Yeah, well some things haven't changed at Reinvent. A lot of people here, you know, back to 2019 highs and I think we exceeded those two hour keynotes. Peter DeSantis last night talking about new Graviton instances and then Adam Selipsky doing the typical two hour keynote. But what was different he was a lot more poetic than we used to hear from Andy Jassy, right? He was talking about the universe as an analogy for data. >> I loved that. >> Talked about ocean exploration as for the security piece and then exploring into the Antarctic for, you know, better chips, you know? So yeah, I think he did a good job there. I think a lot of people might not love it but I thought it was very well done. >> I thought so too. We're having kicking off a great day of live content for you all day today. We've got Eleanor Dorfman joining us, the sales leader at Retool. Eleanor, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to have you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So let's talk a little bit about Retool. I was looking on your LinkedIn page. I love the tagline, build custom internal tools best. >> Eleanor: Yep. >> Talk to us a little bit about the company you recently raised, series C two. Give us the backstory. >> Yeah, so the company was founded in 2017 by two co-founders who are best friends from college. They actually set out to build a FinTech company, a payments company. And as they were building that, they needed to build a ton of custom operations software that goes with that. If you're going to be managing people's money, you need to be able to do refunds. You need to be able to look up accounts, you need to be able to detect fraud, you need to do know your customer operations. And as they were building the sort of operations software that supports the business, they realized that there were patterns to all of it and that the same components were used at and again. And had the insight that that was actually probably a better direction to go in than recreating Venmo, which was I think the original idea. And that actually this is a problem every company has because every company needs operations engineering and operations software to run their business. And so they pivoted and started building Retool which is a platform for building custom operations software or internal tools. >> Dave: Good pivot. >> In hindsight, actually probably in the moment as well, was a good pivot. >> But you know, when you talk about some of those things, refunds, fraud, you know, KYC, you know, you think of operations software, you think of it as just internal, but all those things are customer facing. >> Eleanor: Yep. >> Right so, are we seeing as sort of this new era? Is that a trend that you guys, your founders saw that hey, these internal operations can be pointed at customers to support what, a better customer service, maybe even generate revenue, subscriptions? >> I think it's a direction we're actually heading now but we're just starting to scratch the surface of that. The focus for the last five years has very much been on this operations software and sort of changing the economics of developing it and making it easy and fast to productize workflows that were previously being done in spreadsheets or hacky workarounds and make it easier for companies to prioritize those so they can run their business more efficiently. >> And where are you having your customer conversations these days? Thinking of operations software in the background, but to Dave's point, it ends up being part of the customer experience. So where are you having your customer conversations, target audience, who's that persona? >> Mainly developers. So we're working almost exclusively with developer teams who have backlogs and backlogs of internal tools requests to build that sales teams are building manual forecasts. Support teams are in 19 different tools. Their supply chain teams are using seven different spreadsheets to do demand forecasting or freight forwarding or things like that. But they've never been able to be prioritized to the top of the list because customer facing software, revenue generating software, always takes prioritization. And in this economic environment, which is challenging for many companies right now, it's important to be able to do more with less and maximize the productivity especially of high value employees like engineers and developers. >> So what would you say the biggest business outcomes are? If the developer is really the focus, productivity is the- >> Productivity. It's for both, I would say. Developer productivity and being able to maximize your sort of R and D and maximize the productivity of your engineers and take away some of the very boring parts of the job. But, so I would say developer productivity, but then also the tools and the software that they're building are very powerful for end users. So I would say efficiency and productivity across your business. >> Across the business. >> I mean historically, you know, operations is where we focused IT and code. How much of the code out there is dedicated to sort of operations versus that customer facing? >> So I think it would actually be, it's kind of surprising. We have run a few surveys on this sort of, we call them the state of engineering time, and focusing on what developers are spending their time on. And a third of all code that is being written today is actually for this internal operations software. >> Interesting. And do you guys have news at the show? Are you announcing anything interesting or? >> Yeah, so our focus historically, you sort of gave away with one of your early questions, but our focus has always been on this operations, this building web applications on building UIs on top of databases and APIs and doing that incredibly fast and being able to do it all in one place and integrate with as any data source that you need. We abstract away access authentication deployment and you build applications for your internal teams. But recently, we've launched two new products. We're actually supporting more external use cases and more customer facing use cases as well as automating CRON jobs, ETL jobs alerting with the new retail workflows product. So we're expanding the scope of operations software from web applications to also internal operations like CRON jobs and ETL jobs. >> Explain that. Explain the scourge of CRON jobs to the audience. >> Yeah, so operations software businesses run on operations software. It's interesting, zooming out, it's actually something you said earlier as well. Every company has become a software company. So when you think about software, you tend to think about here. Very cool software that people are selling. And software that you use as a consumer. But Coca-Cola for example, has hundreds of software engineers that are building tools to make the business run for forecasting, for demand gen, for their warehouse distribution and monitoring inventory. And there's two types of that. There's the applications that they build and then the operations that have to run behind that. Maybe a workflow that is detecting how many bottles of Coca-Cola are in every warehouse and sending a notification to the right person when they're out or when they, a refill is very strong, but you know when you need a refill. So it does that, it takes those tasks, those jobs that run in the background and enables you to customize them and build them very rapidly in a code first way. >> So some of the notes that you guys provided say that there's over 500 million software apps that are going to be built in the next few years alone. That's tremendous. How much of that is operation software? >> I mean I think at least a third of that, if not more. To the point where every company is being forced to maximize their resources today and operational efficiency is the way to do that. And so it can become a competitive advantage when you can take the things that humans are doing in spreadsheets with 19 open tabs and automate that. That saves hours a day. That's a significant, significant driver of efficiency and productivity for a business >> It does, and there's direct correlation to the customer experience. The use experience. >> Almost certainly. When you think about building support tooling, I was web chat, chatting on the with Gogo wifi support on my flight over here and they asked for my order number and I sent it and they looked up my account and that's a custom piece of software they were using to look up the account, create a new account for me, and restore my second wifi purchase. And so when you think about it, you're actually, even just as a consumer, interacting with this custom software on the day time. And that's because that's what companies use to have a good customer experience and have an efficient business. >> And what's the relationship with AWS? You guys started, I think you said 2017, so you obviously started in the cloud, but I'm particularly interested in from a seller perspective, what that's like. Working with Amazon, how's that affected your business? >> Yeah, I mean so we're built on AWS, so we're customers and big fans. And obviously like from a selling perspective, we have a ton of integrations with AWS so we're able to integrate directly into all the different AWS products that people are using for databases, for data warehouses, for deployment configurations, for monitoring, for security, for observability, we can basically fit into your existing AWS stack in order to make it as seamless integration with your software so that building in Retool is just as seamless as building it on your own, just much, much faster. >> So in your world, I know you wanted to but, in your world is it more analytics? is it more transactional, sort of? Is it both? >> It's all of the above. And I think what's, over Thanksgiving, I was asked a lot to explain what Retool did with people who were like, we just got our first iPhone. And so I tried to explain with an example because I have yet to stumble on the perfect metaphor. But the example I typically use is DoorDash is a customer of ours. And for about three years, and three years ago, they had a problem. They had no way of turning off delivery in certain zip codes during storms. Which as someone who has had orders canceled during a storm, it's an incredibly frustrating experience. And the way it worked is that they had operation team members manually submitting requests to engineers to say there's a storm in this zip code and an engineer would run a manual task. This didn't scale with Doordash as they were opening in new countries all over the world that have very different weather patterns. And so they looked, they had one, they were sort of confronted with a choice. They could buy a piece of software out of the box. There is not a startup that does this yet. They could build it by hand, which would mean scoping the requirements designing a UI, building authentication, building access controls, putting it into a, putting it into a sprint, assigning an engineer. This would've taken months and months. And then it would take just as long to iterate on it or they could use Retool. So they used Retool, they built this app, it saved, I think they were saying up to two years of engineering time for this one application because of how quickly it was. And since then they've built, I think 50 or 60 more automating away other tasks like that that were one out of spreadsheets or in Jira or in Slack notifications or an email saying, "Hey, could you please do this thing? There's a storm." And so now they use us for dozens and dozens of operations like that. >> A lot of automation and of course a lot of customer delight on the other end of the spectrum as you were talking about. It is frustrating when you don't get that order but it's also the company needs to be able to have the the tools in place to automate to be able to react quickly. >> Eleanor: Exactly. >> Because the consumers are, as we know, quite demanding. I wanted to ask you, I mentioned the tagline in the beginning, build custom internal tools fast. You just gave us a great example of DoorDash. Huge business outcomes they're achieving but how fast are we talking? How fast can the average developer build these internal tools? >> Well, we've been doing a fun thing at our booth where we ask people what a problem is and build a tool for them while we're there. So for something lightweight, you can build it in 10 minutes. For something a little more complex, it can take up to a few weeks depending on what the requirements are. But we all have people who will be on a call with us introducing them to our software for the first time and they'll start telling us about their problems and in the background we'll be building it and then at the end we're like, is this what you meant? And they're like, we'd like to add that to our cart. And obviously, it's a platform so you can't do that. But we've been able to build applications on a call before while people are telling us what they need. >> So fast is fast. >> I would say very fast, yeah. >> Now how do you price? >> Right now, we have a couple different plans. We actually have a motion where you can sign up on our website and get started. So we have a free plan, we've got plans for startups, and then we've got plans all the way up to the enterprise. >> Right. And that's a subscription pricing kind of thing? >> Subscription model, yes. >> So I get a subscription to the platform and then what? Is there also a consumption component? >> Exactly. So there's a consumption component as well. So there's access to the platform and then you can build as many applications as you need. Or build as many workflows. >> When you're having customer conversations with prospects, what do you define as Retool's superpowers? You're the sales leader. What are some of those key superpowers that you think really differentiate Retool? >> I do think, well, the sales team first and foremost, but that's not a fair answer. I would say that people are a bit differentiator though. We have a lot of very talented people who are have a ton of domain expertise and care a ton about the customer outcomes, which I do actually think is a little more rare than it should be. But we're one of the only products out there that's built with a developer first mindset, a varied code first mindset, built to integrate with your software development life cycle but also built with the security and robustness that enterprise companies require. So it's able to take an enterprise grade software with a developer first approach while still having a ton of agility and nimbleness which is what people are really craving as the earth keeps moving around them. So I would say that's something that really sets us apart from the field. >> And then talk about some of the what developers are saying, some of the feedback, some of the responses, and maybe even, I know we're just on day one of the show, but any feedback from the booth so far? >> We've had a few people swing by our booth and show us their Retool apps, which is incredibly cool. That's my absolute favorite thing is encountering a Retool application in the wild which happens a lot more than I would've thought, which I shouldn't say, but is incredibly rewarding. But people love it. It's the reason I joined is I'd never heard someone have a product that customers talked about the way they talk about Retool because Retool enables them to do things. For some folks who use it, it enables them to do something they previously couldn't do. So it gives them super powers in their job and to triple their impact. And then for others, it just makes things so fast. And it's a very delightful experience. It's very much built by developers, for developers. And so it's built with a developer's first mindset. And so I think it's quite fun to build in Retool. Even I can build and Retool, though not well. And then it's extremely impactful and people are able to really impact their business and delight their coworkers which I think can be really meaningful. >> Absolutely. Delighting the coworkers directly relates to delighting the customers. >> Eleanor: Exactly. >> Those customer experience, employee experience, they're like this. >> Eleanor: Exactly. >> They go hand in hand and the employee experience has to be outstanding to be able to delight those customers, to reduce churn, to increase revenue- >> Eleanor: Exactly. >> And for brand reputation. >> And it also, I think there is something as someone who is customer facing, when my coworkers and developers I work with build tools that enable me to do my job better and feel better about my own performance and my ability to impact the customer experience, it's just this incredibly virtuous cycle. >> So Retool.com is where folks can go to learn more and also try that subscription that you said was free for up to five users. >> Yes, exactly. >> All right. I guess my last question, well couple questions for you. What are some of the things that excited you that you heard from Adam Selipsky this morning? Anything from the keynote that stood out in terms of- >> Dave: Did you listen to the keynote? >> I did not. I had customer calls this morning. >> Okay, so they're bringing- >> East coast time, east coast time. >> One of the things that will excite you I think is they're connecting, making it easier to connect their databases. >> Eleanor: That would very much exciting. >> Aurora and Redshift, right? Okay. And they're making it easier to share data. I dunno if it goes across regions, but they're doing better integration. >> Amazing. >> Right? And you guys are integrating with those tools, right? Those data platforms. So that to me was a big thing for you guys. >> It is also and what a big thing Retool does is you can build a UI layer for your application on top of every single data source. And you hear, it's funny, you hear people talk about the 360 degree review of the customer so much. This is another, it's not our primary value proposition, but it is certainly another way to get there is if you have data from their desk tickets from in Redshift, you have data from Stripe, from their payments, you have data from Twilio from their text messages, you have data from DataDog where they're having your observability where you can notice analytics issues. You can actually just use Retool to build an app that sits on top of that so that you can give your support team, your sales team, your account management team, customer service team, all of the data that they need on their customers. And then you can build workflows so that you can do automated customer engagement reports. I did a Slack every week that shows what our top customers are doing with the product and that's built using all of our automation software as well. >> The integration is so important, as you just articulated, because every, you know, we say every company's a software company these days. Every company's a data company. But also, the data democratization that needs to happen to be able for lines of business so that data moves out of certain locked in functions and enables lines of business to use it. To get that visibility that you were just talking about is really going to be a competitive advantage for those that survive and thrive and grow in this market. >> It's able to, I think it's first it's visibility, but then it's action. And I think that's what Retool does very uniquely as well is it can take and unite the data from all the places, takes it out of the black box, puts it in front of the teams, and then enables them to act on it safely and securely. So not only can you see who might be fraudulent, you can flag them as fraud. Not only can you see who's actually in danger, you can click a button and send them an email and set up a meeting. You can set up an approval workflow to bring in an exec for engagement. You can update a password for someone in one place where you can see that they're having issues and not have to go somewhere else to update the password. So I think that's the key is that Retool can unlock the data visibility and then the action that you need to serve your customers. >> That's a great point. It's all about the actions, the insights that those actions can be acted upon. Last question for you. If you had a billboard that you could put any message that you want on Retool, what would it say? What's the big aha? This is why Retool is so great. >> I mean, I think the big thing about Retool is it's changing the economics of software development. It takes something that previously would've been below the line and that wouldn't get prioritized because it wasn't customer facing and makes it possible. And so I would say one of two billboards if I could be a little bit greedy, one would be Retool changed the economics of software development and one would be build operations software at the speed of thought. >> I love that. You're granted two billboards. >> Eleanor: Thank you. >> Those are both outstanding. Eleanor, it's been such a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you for talking to us about Retool. >> Eleanor: Thank you. >> Operations software and the massive impact that automating it can make for developers, businesses alike, all the way to the top line. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> For our guests and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live, emerging, and enterprise tech coverage. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Good Friday morning everyone from Motor City, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is our third day, theCUBE's third day of coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 22' North America. John, we've had some amazing conversations the last three days. We've had some good conversations about observability. We're going to take that one step further and look beyond its three pillars. >> Yeah, this is going to be a great segment. Looking forward to this. This is about in depth conversation on observability. The guest is technical and it's on the front lines with customers. Looking forward to this segment. Should be great. >> Yeah. Ian Smith is here, the field CTO at Chronosphere. Ian, welcome to theCUBE. Great to have you. >> Thank you so much. It's great to be here. >> All right. Talk about the traditional three pillars, approach, and observability. What are some of the challenges with that, and how does Chronosphere solve those? >> Sure. So hopefully everyone knows people think of the three pillars as logs, metrics and traces. What do you do with that? There's no action there. It's just data, right? You collect this data, you go put it somewhere, but it's not actually talking about any sort of outcomes. And I think that's really the heart of the issue, is you're not achieving anything. You're just collecting a whole bunch of data. Where do you put it? What are you... What can you do with it? Those are the fundamental questions. And so one of the things that we're focused on at Chronosphere is, well, what are those outcomes? What is the real value of that? And for example, thinking about phases of observability. When you have an incident or you're trying to investigate something through observability, you probably want to know what's going on. You want to triage any problems you detect. And then finally, you want to understand the cause of those and be able to take longer term steps to address them. >> What do customers do when they start thinking about it? Because observability has that promise. Hey, you know, get the data, we'll throw AI at it. >> Ian: Yeah. >> And that'll solve the problem. When they get over their skis, when do they realize that they're really not tackling it properly, or the ones that are taking the right approach? What's the revelation? What's your take on that? You're in the front lines. What's going on with the customer? The good and the bad. What's the scene look like? >> Yeah, so I think the bad is, you know, you end up buying a lot of things or implementing even in open source or self building, and it's very disconnected. You're not... You don't have a workflow, you don't have a path to success. If you ask different teams, like how do you address these particular problems? They're going to give you a bunch of different answers. And then if you ask about what their success rate is, it's probably very uneven. Another key indicator of problems is that, well, do you always need particular senior engineers in your instance or to help answer particular performance problems? And it's a massive anti pattern, right? You have your senior engineers who are probably need to be focused on innovation and competitive differentiation, but then they become the bottleneck. And you have this massive sort of wedge of maybe less experienced engineers, but no less valuable in the overall company perspective, who aren't effective at being able to address these problems because the tooling isn't right, the workflows are incorrect. >> So the senior engineers are getting pulled in to kind of fix and troubleshoot or observe what the observability data did or didn't deliver. >> Correct. Yeah. And you know, the promise of observability, a lot of people talk about unknown unknowns and there's a lot of, you know, crafting complex queries and all this other things. It's a very romantic sort of deep dive approach. But realistically, you need to make it very accessible. If you're relying on complex query languages and the required knowledge about the architecture and everything every other team is doing, that knowledge is going to be super concentrated in just a couple of heads. And those heads shouldn't be woken up every time at 3:00 AM. They shouldn't be on every instant call. But oftentimes they are the sort of linchpin to addressing, oh, as a business we need to be up 99.99% of the time. So how do we accomplish that? Well, we're going to end up burning those people. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> But also it leads to a great dissatisfaction in the bulk of the engineers who are, you know, just trying to build and operate the services. >> So talk... You mentioned that some of the problems with the traditional three pillars are, it's not outcome based, it leads to silo approaches. What is Chronosphere's definition and can you walk us through those three phases and how that really gives you that competitive edge in the market? >> Yeah, so the three phases being know, triage and understand. So just knowing about a problem, and you can relate this very specifically to capabilities, but it's not capabilities first, not feature function first. So know, I need to be able to alert on things. So I do need to collect data that gives me those signals. But particularly as you know, the industry starts moving towards as slows. You start getting more business relevant data. Everyone knows about alert storms. And as you mentioned, you know, there's this great white hope of AI and machine learning, but AI machine learning is putting a trust in sort of a black box, or the more likely reality is that really statistical model. And you have to go and spend a very significant amount time programming it for sort of not great outcomes. So know, okay, I want to know that I have a problem, I want to maybe understand the symptoms of that particular problem. And then triage, okay, maybe I have a lot of things going wrong at the same time, but I need to be very precise about my resources. I need to be able to understand the scope and importance. Maybe I have five major SLOs being violated right now. Which one is the greatest business impact? Which symptoms are impacting my most valuable customers? And then from there, not getting into the situation, which is very common where, okay, well we have every... Your customer facing engineering team, they have to be on the call. So we have 15 customer facing web services. They all have to be on that call. Triage is that really important aspect of really mitigating the cost to the organization because everyone goes, oh, well I achieved my MTTR and my experience from a variety of vendors is that most organizations, unless you're essentially failing as a business, you achieve your SLA, you know, three nines, four nines, whatever it is. But the cost of doing that becomes incredibly extreme. >> This is huge point. I want to dig into that if you don't mind, 'cause you know, we've been all seeing the cost of ownership miles in it all, the cost of doing business, cost of the shark fan, the iceberg, what's under the water, all those metaphors. >> Ian: Yeah. >> When you look at what you're talking about here, there are actually, actually real hardcore costs that might be under the water, so to speak, like labor, senior engineering time, 'cause Cloud Native engineers are coding in the pipelines. A lot of impact. Can you quantify and just share an example or illustrate where the costs are? 'Cause this is something that's kind of not obvious. >> Ian: Yeah. >> On the hard costs. It's not like a dollar amount, but time resource breach, wrong triage, gap in the data. What are some of the costs? >> Yeah, and I think they're actually far more important than the hard costs of infrastructure and licensing. And of course there are many organizations out there using open source observability components together. And they go, Oh it's free. No licensing costs. But you think again about those outcomes. Okay, I have these 15 teams and okay, I have X number of incidents a month, if I pull a representative from every single one of those teams on. And it turns out that, you know, as we get down in further phases, we need to be able to understand and remediate the issue. But actually only two teams required of that. There's 13 individuals who do not need to be on the call. Okay, yes, I met my SLA and MTTR, but if I am from a competitive standpoint, I'm comparing myself to a very similar organization that only need to impact those two engineers versus the 15 that I had over here. Who is going to be the most competitive? Who's going to be most differentiated? And it's not just in terms of number of lines of code, but leading to burnout of your engineers and the churn of that VPs of engineering, particularly in today's economy, the hardest thing to do is acquire engineers and retain them. So why do you want to burn them unnecessarily on when you can say, okay, well I can achieve the same or better result if I think more clearly about my observability, but reduce the number of people involved, reduce the number of, you know, senior engineers involved, and ultimately have those resources more focused on innovation. >> You know, one thing I want, at least want get in there, but one thing that's come up a lot this year, more than I've ever seen before, we've heard about the skill gaps, obviously, but burnout is huge. >> Ian: Yes. >> That's coming up more and more. This is a real... This actually doesn't help the skills gap either. >> Ian: Correct. >> Because you got skills gap, that's a cost potentially. >> Ian: Yeah. >> And then you got burnout. >> Ian: Yeah. >> People just kind of sitting on their hands or just walking away. >> Yeah. So one of the things that we're doing with Chronosphere is, you know, while we do deal with the, you know, the pillar data, but we're thinking about it more, what can you achieve with that? Right? So, and aligning with the know, triage and understand. And so you think about things like alerts, you know, dashboards, you be able to start triaging your symptoms. But really importantly, how do we bring the capabilities of things like distributed tracing where they can actually impact this? And it's not just in the context of, well, what can we do in this one incident? So there may be scenarios where you, absolutely do need those power users or those really sophisticated engineers. But from a product challenge perspective, what I'm personally really excited about is how do you capture that insight and those capabilities and then feed that back in from a product perspective so it's accessible. So you know, everyone talks about unknown unknowns in observability and then everyone sort of is a little dismissive of monitoring, but monitoring that thing, that democratizes access and the decision making capacity. So if you say I once worked at an organization and there were three engineers in the whole company who could generate the list of customers who were impacted by a particular incident. And I was in post sales at the time. So anytime there was a major incident, need to go generate that list. Those three engineers were on every single incident until one of them got frustrated and built a tool. But he built it entirely on his own. But can you think from an observability perspective, can you build a thing that it makes all those kinds of capabilities accessible to the first point where you take that alert, you know, which customers are affected or whatever other context was useful last time, but took an hour, two hours to achieve. And so that's what really makes a dramatic difference over time, is it's not about the day one experience, but how does the product evolve with the requirements and the workflow- >> And Cloud Native engineers, they're coding so they can actually be reactive. That's interesting, a platform and a tool. >> Ian: Yes. >> And platform engineering is the hottest topic at this event. And this year, I would say with Cloud Native hearing a lot more. I mean, I think that comes from the fact that SREs not really SRE, I think it's more a platform engineer. >> Ian: Yes. >> Not everyone's an... Not company has an SRE or SRE environment. But platform engineering is becoming that new layer that enables the developers. >> Ian: Correct. >> This is what you're talking about. >> Yeah. And there's lots of different labels for it, but I think organizations that really think about it well they're thinking about things like those teams, that developer efficiency, developer productivity. Because again, it's about the outcomes. It's not, oh, we just need to keep the site reliable. Yes, you can do that, but as we talked about, there are many different ways that you can burn unnecessary resources. But if you focus on developer efficiency and productivity, there's retainment, there's that competitive differentiation. >> Let's uplevel those business outcomes. Obviously you talked about in three phases, know, triage and understand. You've got great alignment with the Cloud Native engineers, the end users. Imagine that you're facilitating company's ability to reduce churn, attract more talent, retain talent. But what are some of the business outcomes? Like to the customer experience to the brand? >> Ian: Sure. >> Talk about it in some of those contexts. >> Yeah. One of the things that not a lot of organizations think about is, what is the reliability of my observability solution? It's like, well, that's not what I'm focused on. I'm focused on the reliability of my own website. Okay, let's take the, common open source pattern. I'm going to deploy my observability solution next to my core site infrastructure. Okay, I now have a platform problem because DNS stopped working in cloud provider of my choice. It's also affecting my observability solution. So at the moment that I need- >> And the tool chain and everything else. >> Yeah. At the moment that I need it the most to understand what's going on and to be able to know triage and understand that fails me at the same time. It's like, so reliability has this very big impact. So being able to make sure that my solution's reliable so that when I need it the most, and I can affect reliability of my own solution, my own SLA. That's a really key aspect of it. One of the things though that we, look at is it's not just about the outcomes and the value, it's ROI, right? It's what are you investing to put into that? So we've talked a little bit about the engineering cost, there's the infrastructure cost, but there's also a massive data explosion, particularly with Cloud Native. >> Yes. Give us... Alright, put that into real world examples. A customer that you think really articulates the value of what Chronosphere is delivering and why you're different in the market. >> Yeah, so DoorDash is a great customer example. They're here at KubeCon talking about their experience with Chronosphere and you know, the Cloud Native technologies, Prometheus and those other components align with Chronosphere. But being able to undergo, you know, a transformation, they're a Cloud Native organization, but going a transformation from StatsD to very heavy microservices, very heavy Kubernetes and orchestration. And doing that with your massive explosion, particularly during the last couple of years, obviously that's had a very positive impact on their business. But being able to do that in a cost effective way, right? One of the dirty little secrets about observability in particular is your business growth might be, let's say 50%, 60%, your infrastructure spend in the cloud providers is maybe going to be another 10, 15% on top of that. But then you have the intersection of, well my engineers need more data to diagnose things. The business needs more data to understand what's going on. Plus we've had this massive explosion of containers and everything like that. So oftentimes your business growth is going to be more than doubled with your observability data growth and SaaS solutions and even your on-premises solutions. What's the main cost driver? It's the volume of data that you're processing and storing. And so Chronosphere one of the key things that we do, because we're focused on organizational pain for larger scale organizations, is well, how do we extract the maximum volume of the data you're generating without having to store all of that data and then present it not just from a cost perspective, but also from a performance perspective. >> Yes. >> John: Yeah. >> And so feeding all into developer productivity and also lowering that investment so that your return can stand out more clearly and more valuably when you are assessing that TCO. >> Better insights and outcomes drives developer productivity for sure. That also has top theme here at KubeCon this year. It always is, but this is more than ever 'cause of the velocity. My question for you, given that you're the field chief technology officer for Chronosphere and you have a unique position, you've got a great experience in the industry, been involved in some really big companies and cutting edge. What's the competitive landscape? 'Cause the customers sometimes are confused by all the pitches they're getting from other vendors. Some are bolting on observability. Some have created like I would say, a shim layer or horizontally scalable platform or platform engineering approach. It's a data problem. Okay. This is a data architecture challenge. You mentioned that many times. What's the difference between a pretender and a player in this space? What's the winning architecture look like? What's a, I won't say phony or fake solution, but ones that customers should be aware of? Because my opinion, if you have a gap in the data or you configure it wrong, like a bolt on and say DNS crashes you're dead in the water. >> Ian: Yeah. >> What's the right approach from a customer standpoint? How do they squint through all the noise to figure out what's the right approach? >> Yeah, so I mean, I think one of the ways, and I've worked with customers in a pre-sales capacity for a very long time I know all the tricks of guiding you through. I think it needs to be very clear that customers should not be guided by the vendor. You don't talk to one vendor and they decide, Oh, I'm going to evaluate based off this. We need to particularly get away from feature based evaluations. Features are very important, but they're all have to be aligned around outcomes. And then you have to clearly understand, where am I today? What do I do today? And what is going to be the transformation that I have to go through to take advantage of these features? They can get very entrancing to say, Oh, there's a list of 25 features that this solution has that no one else has, but how am I going to get value out of that? >> I mean, distributed tracing is a distributed word. Distributed is the key word. This is a system architecture. The holistic big picture comes in. How do they figure that out? Knowing what they're transforming into? How does it fit in? >> Ian: Yeah. >> What's the right approach? >> Too often I say distributed tracing, particularly, you know, bought, because again, look at the shiny features look at the the premise and the MTTR expectations, all these other things. And then it's off to the side. We go through the traditional usage of metrics very often, very log heavy approaches, maybe even some legacy APM. And then it's sort of at last resort. And out of all the tools, I think distributed tracing is the worst in the problem we talked about earlier where the most sophisticated engineers, the ones who are being longest tenured, are the only ones who end up using it. So adoption is really, really poor. So again, what do we do today? Well, we alert, we probably want to understand our symptoms, but then what is the key problem? Oh, we spend a lot of time digging into the where the problem exists in my architecture, we talked about, you know, getting every engineer in at the same time, but how do we reduce the number of engineers involved? How do we make it so that, well, this looks like a great day one experience, but what is my day 30 experience like? Day 90. How is the product get more valuable? How do I get my most senior engineers out of this, not just on day one, but as we progress through it? >> You got to operationalize it. That's the key. >> Yeah, Correct. >> Summarize this as we wrap here. When you're in customer conversations, what is the key factor behind Chronosphere's success? If you can boil it down to that key nugget, what is it? >> I think the key nugget is that we're not just fixated on sort of like technical features and functions and frankly gimmicks of like, Oh, what could you possibly do with these three pillars of data? It's more about what can we do to solve organizational pain at the high level? You know, things like what is the cost of these solutions? But then also on the individual level, it's like, what exactly is an engineer trying to do? And how is their quality of life affected by this kind of tooling? And it's something I'm very passionate about. >> Sounds like it. Well, the quality of life's important, right? For everybody, for the business, and ultimately ends up affecting the overall customer experience. So great job, Ian, thank you so much for joining John and me talking about what you guys are doing beyond the three pillars of observability at Chronosphere. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> John: All right. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live Friday morning from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 22' from Detroit. Our next guest joins theCUBE momentarily, so stick around. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80 startup showcase marketing technology, emerging cloud scale customer experiences. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the, a AWS ecosystem to talk about all the top trends and also featuring the key customers. I'm your host, John ER, today we're joined by Louis Fernando, Denise vice president of peak pay social and John Kim, the CEO of Sandberg to learn about the future of what's going on in fostering deeper customer relationships. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us in the cube showcase, >>Excited to be here. >>So John talk about Sendbird real quick set the table for us. What you guys do, you got a customer here to highlight some of the key things you're doing with customers, the value proposition what's Sendbird and what's the showcase about, >>Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Uh, I'm John founder, C of Sandberg. So Sandberg is the worst leading conversations platform for mobile applications. We can power user to user conversations in mobile applications, as well as the brand to user conversations such as marketing sales and support. So, uh, today we power over quarter billion users on a monthly basis. Uh, we have, you know, through over 300 employees across seven different countries around the world, we work with some of the world's leading, uh, uh, customers such as big pay that we are going to showcase today, along with other, uh, wonderful customers like DoorDash, Reddit, <inaudible> sports and so forth. We have collectively raised over 200 million in funding. Um, so that's kind of where we are today. >>Well, it's always great to have, uh, one great success. Uh, good funding, more important is the customers. And I love showcases where the customers do the talking, because that means you've got some success stories. Louise, talk about, um, are you happy customer? What's it like working with Sandberg? Give us the, give us the scoop. >>So sandbar is being a great partner with us. So pick pay is a Brazilian payment app. We're at a FinTech here with more than 30 million active users using everyday pick pay to pay everything. So the, the, the majority of the payments are between peers, between people. So sandbar is, is helping us to improve a lot this journey to make it more pleasant between every everyone who are using big, big. So we are here, let's talk and it's a >>Pleasure. Yeah, it's awesome. Well, I great to have you guys on great, great relationship. And one of the things we've been talking about on the cube, if the folks watching that know our audience, no we've been banging the, the drum hard on this new world and this new patterns of user expectations and building relationships in this new digital world is not about the old way, the old MarTech way. There are new new use cases, new expectations by the consumers, John, that are, that are bringing up new opportunities, but also expectations. It's not about, I mean, I mean, if someone's using discord, for example, cuz they're gamers, they're done discord. If they want to communicate with, with slack, they, I do slack, SMS, kind of old hat. You got WhatsApp, you've got all these now peer to peer organic connections, multiple channels. This is all the new world. What's your vision on this new relationship building digital communication world. >>Yeah. So I, I think you brought a really good point there. One of the most frequently used applications in the world today are messaging applications across any countries, any region, any culture, if you look at the most frequently used and most longest used applications are usually some form of a, a messaging application. Now the end users or the customers in the world are so used to using, uh, uh, such a, you know, frictionless ver very responsive, modern experience on those messaging applications. What we want to help with the business around the world, the 99.9% of the business around the world don't have those really te knowledge or user experience expertise in messaging. So we want to help our businesses, help our customers be able to harness the power of modern messaging capabilities and then be able to embed it in their own business so that they can retain their users on their platform, engage with them in the con context that their, uh, what their business is about so that they can not only, uh, control or provide a better user experience, but also be able to, uh, understand their users better, uh, understand what they're doing on their businesses, be able to own and, uh, control the data in a more secure and safe way. >>So really it's uh, we're like the Robin hood of the world trying to keep superpower yeah. Back to the businesses. >>Yeah. Deal from the rich idea, the messaging scale. Bring that to everybody else. I love that. Uh, and you got kind of this double int Robin hood kind of new for the new generation finance. This is about taking the advantage of scalable platforms, monopolies, right. And giving the entrepreneur an opportunity to have that same capability feature, rich Louise PPE. You guys used Sendbird together. You have to level up, you gotta compete with those big monopolies to pride, scalable conversations. Okay. How did you engage this? What was your success path look? What was it look like? >>Yeah. When we look to this majority, the bigger chat apps that we have nowadays in the market, we are looking to them and then Brazilians are using for their daily course, but Brazilians are paying every day millions and millions of payments. And these chat apps are not, uh, able to, to, to deal with these payments. So what we are doing here is that, uh, providing a solution where every conversation that are going to happen before, during, or after a payment between the, the people, they would, uh, uh, have a nice platform that could afford all, all of their emotions and discussions that they have to do before or after the payment. So we are putting together the chat platform and we with the payment platform. So that's, that's what we are doing now. >>Okay. So just so I get this right. You're using Sandberg essentially integrated your mobile payment experience. Okay. Which is your app you're Sandberg to bring that scalability into the, into the social app application into the app itself. Is that right? >>Yes. Perfect. Integrated with the payment journey. So everybody who is going to pay, they need to find the one, the, the one they want to pay and then they can chat and conclude the payment through the platform. Yeah. I >>Mean, why not have it right there at point of, uh, transaction. Right. Um, why did you, um, decide to, um, to use conversations in your mobile wallet? Just curious. >>So it's important to say that we were born social. We born in 2012. So when our main main product was peer to peer payments, so everybody were sending money to a friend requesting or charging their family. So a service provider. And once we, we started as a social platform in that period. In that moment, we are just focusing in likes comments and like public interactions and the word become more private. And as soon we under understood this situation, we decided to move from a public feed to a private, to a private interaction. So that's, uh, that then the, the conversational space was the solution for that moving from a public interaction to a private interaction. So between the peers, which are involved in the, the transaction. So that's why we are providing the chat solution integrated with payments. >>That's a great call. John, just give some context here, again, for the folks watching this is now expected, this integrated experience. What's your, how would you talk to folks out there? I mean, first of all, I, I, I see it clearly, you've got an app, you gotta have all this integration and you need it scaling to reach features. Talk about your view on that. Is that the, is that what's happening here? What's, what's the real dynamic here. What's the, the big trend. >>Yeah. One thing that's, uh, super interesting about, uh, uh, like messaging experience in general, if you think about any kind of conversations that's happening, uh, digitally between human beings, more and more conversations, just like what Louis mentioned earlier are happening between in a private setting, even on applications, whether it be slack or other forms of communication, uh, more hap uh, more conversations happen through either one-on-one conversations or in a private small group settings. And because people feel more secure, uh, safe to have, uh, more intimate conversations. So even when you're making transactions is more, you know, there's a higher trust and, uh, people tend to engage, uh, far better on platforms through these kind of private conversations. That's where we kind of come in, whether it be, you want to set a one-on-one conversations or with a group conversation. And then ultimately if you want to take it public in a large group setting, you can also support, you know, thousands, if not, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, uh, engaging a public forum as well. So all of those capabilities can be implemented using something Ember, but again, the world is, uh, right now the businesses and how the user are, are interacting with this with each other is all happening through digital conversations. And we're seeing more and more of that happening, uh, throughout the life cycle of our company. >>Yeah, just as a sidebar, I was just talking to a venture in San Francisco the other day, and we're talking about the future of security and SAS and cloud scale. And, you know, the conversation went to more of, is it SAS? Is it platform as a service Louis? I wanna get your thoughts because, you know, you're seeing more and more needs for customization, low code, no code. You're seeing these trends. You gotta built in security. So, you know, the different, the old SAS model was softwares a service, but now that's everything in the cloud is softwares a service. So, but you need to have that platform kind of vibe for scale customization, maybe some developer integration, cuz apps are becoming the, the touchpoint. So can you walk us through what your vision was when you decided to integrate, chat into your app and how did you see that chat, changing the customer experience for payments and across your user journey? Cause, I mean, it's obvious now looking at it, but it might not have been for some. What was your, what was your vision? And when you had to do that, >>When you looked to Brazilian reality, we can see those in, uh, payment apps. All of them are focused on the transactional moment. And as soon as we started to think, how could be, how could our journey be better, more pleased than the others and make people want to be here and to use and to open our app every day is just about making the interaction with the peers easier, even with a merchant or even with my friend. So the main point that our first step was just to connect all, all the users between themselves to payments. The second step we are providing now is using the chat platform, the send bird platform as a platform for peak pay. So we are going to provide more best information. We're going to provide a better customer experience through the support and everything. So, um, this, this, this interaction or this connection, this partnership with Sandberg are going to unlock a new level of service for our users. And at the same time, a much more pleasant or a more pleasant journey for them while they are using the, the app for a, a simple payment, or if they are going to look for a group objective or maybe a crowdfund in the future or a group to decide, or just to pay something. So we are then locking a new level of interaction between the peers between the people and the users that are, that are involved into this, this payment or this simple transaction, we are making it more conversational. >>Yeah. You're making the application more valuable. We're gonna get to that in the next segment about, you know, the future of apps one and done, you see a lot of sports apps, oh, this big tournament, you know, and then you use it and then you never use it again until next year. You know, you have very time specific apps, but now you guys are smart to kind of build this in, but I gotta ask you a question because a lot of developers and companies out there always have this buy versus build decision. Why did you decide to use Sendbird versus building it in house? It's always kind of like the big trade off. >>Yeah. First of all, it will take a long, long time for us to achieve a major platform as Sandberg. And we are not a chat platform. So we are going to use this social interaction to improve the payment platform that we have. So when we look to the market and we found Sandberg, then we thought, okay, this guys, they are a real platform. And through the conversations, we are seeing that they are roadmap working in synergy with our roadmap. And then we can, we could start to deliver value to our, to our users in a fastest way. Could you imagine it spending 2, 3, 4 years to develop something like sand? And even when we achieve this point, probably our solution will be, would be weaker than, than Sandberg. So it was like no brainer to do that. Yeah. Because we want to improve the payment journey, not to do a chat, only a chat platform. So that's why we are working together to prove it's >>Really, you start to see these plugins, these, you know, look at Stripe for payments, for instance, right. And here in the success they've had, you know, people want to plug in for services. So John, I gotta ask you about, um, about the, the complexity that goes into it. The trust required that they have for you, you have to do this heavy lifting, you gotta provide the confidence that your service is gonna have to scale the compliance. Talk about that. What do you guys do under the covers that make this easy again, great business model, heavy lifting done by you. Seamless integration provide that value. That's why business is good, but there's a lot going on share what's happening under the, under the covers. >>Yeah. Um, before going to like the technical, like intricacy of what we do just to provide a little bit of background context on why we even started this business is we, uh, this is my second startup. My first company was a gaming company. We had built like chat three, four times just for our own game. So we were basically, we felt like we were reinventing the wheel. And then we actually went on a buyer's journey when we were building a social application, uh, uh, for, for, uh, uh, building our own community. We tried to actually be a buyer to see if we can actually find a solution. We want to use turns out that there weren't a lot of like sophisticated, you know, top notch, modern, uh, uh, chat experience that we can build using some other third party solutions. So we had to build all of that ourselves, which became the foundation for se today. >>And what we realized is that for most companies like using a building, the most sophisticated chat is probably not going to be their highest priority in case a pick pay will be, you know, financial transactions and all the other business that can be built on and hosted by platform like pick pay. But, you know, building the most topnotch chat experience would be a priority for a company like let's say WhatsApp or, or telegram, but it will probably not be the priority for, you know, major gaming companies, food delivery companies, finance companies, chat is not the highest priority. That's kind of where we come in, cuz chat is the highest priority for us. And we also have a privilege of working with some of the other, uh, world industry, uh, industry leaders. So by, uh, having this collective experience, working with the industry leaders, we get, uh, uh, technological superiority, being able to, uh, scale to, you know, hundreds of millions of users on a monthly basis. Also the security and the compliances by working with some of the largest commercial banks on some of the largest FinTech applications across the globe. So we have, you know, security, compliances, all the industry, best practices that are built in and all the new topnotch user experience that we are, uh, building with other customers can be also be, uh, utilized by a customer like pick pay. So you get this collective almost like evolutionary benefit. Yeah. By, uh, working with a company like us, >>You get a lot of economies of scale. Could you mind just sharing the URL for the company? So folks watching can go get, do a deep dive. Cause I'm you guys got a lot of, lot of, um, certifications under the covers, a lot of things you guys do. So you mind just sharing URL real quick. >>Yeah. So our company, uh, you can find everything about our company on sandberg.com like carrot pigeon. So, uh, you're sending a bird to send a message. So, uh, yeah. send.com >>All so let's get it to the application, cuz this is really interesting cuz Chad is table stakes now, but things are evolving beyond Chad. You gotta integrate that user experience. It's data. Now you gotta have scale. I mean, you know, people who wanna roll their own chat will find out there's a lot of client side and backend scale issues. Right. You can have a tsunami river like on Twitch, you know, you chat. I mean that, could you got client side issues, data scale. <laugh> right. You got backend. Um, Louis, talk about that dynamic because you know, as you start to scale, you want to rely on that. Talk about this dynamic, how apps now are integrating all these new features. So is it, are apps gonna go like more multifunctional? Do you see apps one and done? What's the, how do you guys see this app world playing out and where does, does the Sendbird fit in? And >>Just, just let me know better John, about the performance or about the, just, just let me >>Oh, slow with performance. Uh, performance is huge, right? You gotta have no one wants to have lag on, on chat. >>Okay. So, um, big pay when we look to the payments have millions, thousands of, of, of payments happen happening every second. So what we are doing now is moving all the payments through a conversation. So it always happened inside the conversation. So since from the first moment, um, every second counts to convert this client. And since from the first moment we never saw in, on Sandberg, any issue about that. And even when we have a question or something that we need to improve the team we're working together. So that that's, those are the points that are making us to work together and to make things going pretty fast. When we look to the users who are going to use chat, they are, their intention is three times better than the users who are not using payments through the chat. They are average. Average spent is three times higher too. >>So they, they are making more connections. They are chatting with their friends. They are friends are here. So the network effect is stronger. So if they're going to pay and they need to wait one more second, two seconds to conclude the payment, probably they will not go into choose paying through the, again, they will use only the wallet, only the code, only the Alliance of the user. So that's is so important for us to perform really, really fast. And then this is what we are finding. And this is what is happening with the integration with Sandberg. >>And what's interesting is, is that the by build chat with conversation, we just had a minute ago kind of plays in here. You get the benefits of Sandberg, but now your transactional fidelity is in the chat <laugh> that you don't build that you rely on them on. So again, that's an interesting dynamic. This is the future of apps, John, this is where it matters. The engagement. This is what you talk about is the new, the new digital experience who would've thought that five, 10 years ago. I mean, chat was just like, Hey, what's going around direct message. Now it's integral part of the app. What's your reading. >>Yeah. I mean, we're seeing that across, uh, uh, to Lewis's point, not just transactions, but like marketing messages are now being sent through chat. So the marketing is no longer just about like giving discount calls, but you can actually reengage with the brand. Uh, also support is becoming more real time through chat. So you're actually building a relationship. The support agents have a better context about the previous conversations and the transactions, the sales conversations, even like building, uh, building alerts, notification, all those things are now, uh, happening through conversations. And that's a better way for customers to engage with the brand cuz you actually, you're actually building a better relationship and also, uh, being able to trust the brand more because there is a channel for you to communicate and, and, and be seen and be heard, uh, by the brand. So we do believe that that's the future of the business and how more and more, uh, brands will be building relationships with their customers. >>Yeah. I love, I love your business model. I think it's really critical. And I think that stickiness is a real, uh, call out point there and the brand, the co-branding and the branding capability, but also really quickly in the last minute we have John and Luis, if you don't mind talking about security, I mean, I can't go a day now without getting an SMS scam, uh, text, uh, you seeing it now on WhatsApp. I mean, I don't even use telegram anymore. I mean, come on. So like, like this is now a problem. The old way has been infiltrated with spam and security issues. Security has to be there. The trust and security real quick, John, we'll start with you and we all Louis go, go ahead. >>No, no. Just, just to, to say how important is that we are not only a chatting platform. We are a payment platform, so we have money now, the transaction. So here in Brazil, we have all this safe, the, the, the layers, the security layers that we have in, on our app. And then we have the security layers provided from Sandburg. So, and when we look to the features, Sandberg are providing to us a lot of features that help users to feel safer like per refined profiles, like announcements, where it's a profile from peak pay, where the users can recognize. So this is peak pay talking with me. It's not a user trying to pass, trying to use big Bay's name to talk with me. So these issues is something that we are really, really, we really care about here because we are not only a chat platform. As I said before, we are a payment platform. We are a FinTech, we're at a digital bank. So we need to take care a lot and we don't have any complaint about it because Sandberg understood it. And then they, they, they are providing since the first moment with the perfect solutions and the user interface to make it simpler for the users to recognize that we speak, pay who is chatting with them, not a user with, with bad, bad intentions. >>Great, great insight, Louis. Thanks for sharing that, John really appreciate you guys coming on. Great showcase. Real final word. John will give you the final word folks watching out there. How do they engage with Sendbird? I want to integrate, I want to use your chat service. What do I do? Do I have to connect in as it managed service is the line of code. What do I do to get Sendbird? >>Yeah. So if you're a developer building a mobile application, simply come visit our website, we have a open documentation and SDK you can download and simply plug into your application. You can have a chat experience up and running matter of minutes, if not ours using our UI kit. So we want to make it as easy as possible for all the builders in the world to be able to harness the superpower of digital conversations. >>All right, great. Congratulations, John, on your success and all the growth and Louis, thanks for coming in, sharing the customer perspective and great insight. Thanks for coming on the showcase. Really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. >>Yeah. Thank you for having me. >>Okay. The a of us startup showcase season two, episode three here I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat techno music) >> Hey everyone, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Snowflake Summit '22 live from Caesar's Forum in beautiful, warm, and sunny Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin. I got the Chris and Chris show, next. Bear with me. Chris Degnan joins us again. One of our alumni, the Chief Revenue Officer at Snowflake. Good to have you back, Chris. >> Thank you for having us. >> Lisa: Chris Grusz also joins us. Director of Business Development AWS Marketplace and Service Catalog at AWS. Chris and Chris, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Good to be back in person. >> Isn't it great. >> Chris G: It's so much better. >> Chris D: Yeah. >> Nothing like it. So let's talk. There's been so much momentum, Chris D, at Snowflake the last few years. I mean the momentum at this show since we launched yesterday, I know you guys launched the day before with partners, has been amazing. A lot of change, and it's like this for Snowflake. Talk to us about AWS working together with Snowflake and some of the benefits in it from your customer. And then Chris G, I'll go to you for the same question. >> Chris G: Yep. >> You know, first of all, it's awesome. Like, I just, you know, it's been three years since I've had a Snowflake Summit in person, and it's crazy to see the growth that we've seen. You know, I can't, our first cloud that we ever launched on top of was, was AWS, and AWS is our largest cloud, you know, in in terms of revenue today. And they've been, they just kind of know how to do it right. And they've been a wonderful partner all along. There's been challenges, and we've kind of leaned in together and figured out ways to work together, you know, and to solve those challenges. So, been a wonderful partnership. >> And talk about it, Chris G, from your perspective obviously from a coopetition perspective. >> Yep. >> AWS has databases, cloud data forms. >> Chris G: Yeah. >> Talk to us about it. What was the impetus for the partnership with Snowflake from AWS's standpoint? >> Yeah, well first and foremost, they're building on top of AWS. And so that, by default, makes them a great partner. And it's interesting, Chris and I have been working together for, gosh, seven years now? And the relationship's come a really long way. You know, when we first started off, we were trying to sort out how we were going to work together, when we were competing, and when we're working together. And, you know, you fast forward to today, and it's just such a good relationship. Because both companies work backwards from customers. And so that's, you know, kind of in both of our DNA. And so if the customer makes that selection, we're going to support them, even from an AWS perspective. When they're going with Snowflake, that's still a really good thing for AWS, 'cause there's a lot of associated services that Snowflake either integrates to, or we're integrating to them. And so, it's really kind of contributed to how we can really work together in a co-sell motion. >> Talk to us, talk about that. The joint GOTO market and the co-selling motion from Snowflake's perspective, how do customers get engaged? >> Well, I think, you know, typically we, where we are really good at co-selling together is we identify on premise systems. So whether it's, you know, some Legacy UDP system, some Legacy database solution, and they want to move to the cloud? You know, Amazon is all in on getting everyone to the cloud. And I think that's their approach they've taken with us is saying we're really good at accelerating that adoption and moving all these, you know, massive workloads into the cloud. And then to Chris's point, you know, we've integrated so nicely into things like SageMaker and other tool sets. And we, we even have exciting scenarios where they've allowed us to use, you know, some of their Amazon.com retail data sets that we actually use in data sharing via the partnership. So we continue to find unique ways to partner with our great friends at Amazon. >> Sounds like a very deep partnership. >> Chris D: Yeah. Absolutely. >> Chris G: Oh, absolutely, yeah. We're integrating into Snowflake, and they're integrating to AWS. And so it just provides a great combined experience for our customers. And again, that's kind of what we're both looking forward from both of our organizations. >> That customer centricity is, >> Yeah. >> is I think the center of the flywheel that is both that both of you, your companies have. Chris D, talk about the the industry's solutions, specific, industry-specific solutions that Snowflake and AWS have. I know we talked yesterday about the pivot from a sales perspective >> Chris D: Yes. >> That snowflake made in recent months. Talk to us about the industries that you are help, really targeting with AWS to help customers solve problems. >> Yeah. I think there's, you know, we're focused on a number of industries. I think, you know, some of the examples, like I said, I gave you the example of we're using data sharing to help the retail space. And I think it's a really good partnership. Because some of the, some companies view Amazon as a competitor in the retail space, and I think we kind of soften that blow. And we actually leverage some of the Amazon.com data sets. And this is where the partnership's been really strong. In the healthcare space, in the life sciences space, we have customers like Anthem, where we're really focused on helping actually Anthem solve real business problems. Not necessarily like technical problems. It's like, oh no, they want to get, you know, figure out how they can get the whole customer and take care of their whole customer, and get them using the Anthem platform more effectively. So there's a really great, wonderful partnership there. >> We've heard a lot in the last day and a half on theCUBE from a lot of retail customers and partners. There seems to be a lot of growth in that. So there's so much change in the retail market. I was just talking with Click and Snowflake about Urban Outfitters, as an example. And you think of how what these companies are doing together and obviously AWS and Snowflake, helping companies not just pivot during the pandemic, but really survive. I mean, in the beginning with, you know, retail that didn't have a digital presence, what were they going to do? And then the supply chain issues. So it really seems to be what Snowflake and its partner Ecosystem is doing, is helping companies now, obviously, thrive. But it was really kind of like a no-go sort of situation for a lot of industries. >> Yeah, and I think the neat part of, you know, both the combined, you know, Snowflake and AWS solution is in, a good example is DoorDash, you know. They had hyper growth, and they could not have handled, especially during COVID, as we all know. We all used DoorDash, right? We were just talking about it. Chipotle, like, you know, like (laughter) and I think they were able to really take advantage of our hyper elastic platforms, both on the Amazon side and the Snowflake side to scale their business and meet the high demand that they were seeing. And that's kind of some of the great examples of where we've enabled customer growth to really accelerate. >> Yeah. Yeah, right. And I'd add to that, you know, while we saw good growth for those types of companies, a lot of your traditional companies saw a ton of benefit as well. Like another good example, and it's been talked about here at the show, is Western Union, right? So they're a company that's been around for a long time. They do cross border payments and cross currency, you know, exchanges, and, you know, like a lot of companies that have been around for a while, they have data all over the place. And so they started to look at that, and that became an inhibitor to their growth. 'Cause they couldn't get a full view of what was actually going on. And so they did a lengthy evaluation, and they ended up going with Snowflake. And, it was great, 'cause it provided a lot of immediate benefits, so first of all, they were able to take all those disparate systems and pull that into Snowflake. So they finally had a single source of the truth, which was lacking before that. So that was one of the big benefits. The second benefit, and Chris has mentioned this a couple times, is the fact that they could use data sharing. And so now they could pull in third data. And now that they had a holistic view of their entire data set, they could pull in that third party data, and now they could get insights that they never could get before. And so that was another large benefit. And then the third part, and this is where the relationship between AWS and Snowflake is great, is they could then use Amazon SageMaker. So one of the decisions that Western Union made a long time ago is they use R for their data science platform, and SageMaker supports R. And so it really allowed them to dovetail the skill sets that they had around data science into SageMaker. They could now look across all of Snowflake. And so that was just a really good benefit. And so it drove the cost down for Western Union which was a big benefit, but the even bigger benefit is they were now able to start to package and promote different solutions to their customers. So they were effectively able to monetize all the data that they were now getting and the information they were getting out of Snowflake. And then of course, once it was in there, they could also use things like Tableau or ThoughtSpot, both of which available in AWS Marketplace. And it allowed them to get all kinds of visualization of data that they never got in the past. >> The monetization piece is, is interesting. It's so challenging for organizations, one, to get that single source view, to be able to have a customer 360, but to also then be able to monetize data. When you're in customer conversations, how do you help customers on that journey, start? Because the, their competitors are clearly right behind them, ready to take first place spot. How do you help customers go, all right this is what we're going to do to help you on this journey with AWS to monetize your data? >> I think, you know, it's everything from, you know, looking at removing the silos of data. So one of the challenges they've had is they have these Legacy systems, and a lot of times they don't want to just take the Legacy systems and throw them into the cloud. They want to say, we need a holistic view of our customer, 360 view of our customer data. And then they're saying, hey, how can we actually monetize that data? That's where we do everything from, you know, Snowflake has the data marketplace where we list it in the data marketplace. We help them monetize it there. And we use some of the data sets from Amazon to help them do that. We use the technologies like Chris said with SageMaker and other tool sets to help them realize the value of their data in a real, meaningful way. >> So this sounds like a very strategic and technical partnership. >> Yeah, well, >> On both sides. >> It's technical and it's GOTO market. So if you take a look at, you know, Snowflake where they've built over 20 integrations now to different AWS services. So if you're using S3 for object storage, you can use Snowflake on top of that. If you want to load up Snowflake with Glue which is our ETL tool, you can do that. If you want to use QuickSite to do your data visualization on top of Snowflake, you can do that. So they've built integration to all of our services. And then we've built integrations like SageMaker back into Snowflake, and so that supports all kinds of specific customer use cases. So if you think of people that are doing any kind of cloud data platform workload, stuff like data engineering, data warehousing, data lakes, it could be even data applications, cyber security, unistore type things, Snowflake does an excellent job of helping our customers get into those types of environments. And so that's why we support the relationship with a variety of, you know, credit programs. We have a lot of co-sell motions on top of these technical integrations because we want to make sure that we not only have the right technical platform, but we've got the right GOTO market motion. And that's super important. >> Yeah, and I would add to that is like, you know one of the things that customers do is they make these large commitments to Amazon. And one of the best things that Amazon did was allow those customers to draw down Snowflake via the AWS Marketplace. So it's been wonderful to his point around the GOTO market, that was a huge issue for us. And, and again, this is where Amazon was innovative on identifying the ways to help make the customer have a better experience >> Chris G: Yeah. >> Chris D: and put the customer first. And this has been, you know, wonderful partnership there. >> Yeah. It really has. It's been a great, it's been really good. >> Well, and the customers are here. Like we said, >> Yep. >> Yes. Yes they are. >> we're north of 10,000 folks total, and customers are just chomping at the bit. There's been so much growth in the last three years from the last time, I think I heard the 2019 Snowflake Summit had about 1500 people. And here we are at 10,000 plus now, and standing-room-only keynote, the very big queue to get in, people turned away, pushed back to an overflow area to be able to see that, and that was yesterday. I didn't even get a chance to see what it was like today, but I imagine it was probably the same. Talk about the, when you're in customer conversations, where do you bring, from a GTM perspective, Where do you bring Snowflake into the conversation? >> Yeah >> Obviously, there's Redshift there, what does that look like? I imagine it follows the customer's needs, challenges. >> Exactly. >> Compelling events. >> Yeah. We're always going to work backwards from the customer need, and so that is the starting point for kindling both organizations. And so we're going to, you know, look at what they need. And from an AWS perspective, you know, if they're going with Snowflake, that's a very good thing. Right? 'Cause one of the things that we want to support is a selection experience to our AWS customers and make sure that no matter what they're doing, they're getting a very good, supported experience. And so we're always going to work backwards from the customer. And then once they make that technology decision, then we're going to support them, as I mentioned, with a whole bunch of co-sell resources. We have technical resources in the field. We have credit programs and in, you know, and, of course, we're going to market in a variety of different verticals as well with Snowflake. If you take a look at all the industry clouds that Snowflake has spun up, financial services and healthcare, and media entertainment, you know, those are all very specific use cases that are very valuable to an AWS customer. And AWS is going more and more to market on a vertical approach, and so Snowflake really just fits right in with our overall strategy. >> Right. Sounds like very tight alignment there. That mission alignment that Frank talked about yesterday. I know he was talking about that with respect to customers, but it sounds like there's a mission alignment between AWS and Snowflake. >> Mission alignment, yeah. >> I live that every week. (laughter) >> Sorry if I brought up a pain point. >> Yeah. Little bit. No. >> Guys, what's, in terms of use cases, obviously we've been here for a couple days. I'm sure you've had tremendous feedback, >> Chris G: Yeah. >> from, from customers, from partners, from the ecosystem. What's next, what can we expect to hear next? Maybe give us a preview of re:Invent in the few months. >> Preview of re:Invent. Yeah. No, well, one of the things we really want to start doing is just, you know, making the use case of, of launching Snowflake on AWS a lot easier. So what can we do to streamline those types of experiences? 'Cause a lot of times we'll find that customers, once they buy a third party solution like Snowflake, they have to then go through a whole series of configuration steps, and what can we do to streamline that? And so we're going to continue to work on that front. One of the other places that we've been exploring with Snowflake is how we work with channel partners. And, you know, when we first launched Marketplace it was really more of an app store model that was ISVs on one side and channel partners on the other, and there wasn't really a good fit for channel partners. And so four years ago we retrofitted the platform and have opened it up to resellers like an SHI or SIs like Salam or Deloitte who are top, two top SIs for Snowflake. And now they can use Marketplace to resell those technologies and also sell their services on top of that. So Snowflake's got a big, you know, practice with Salam, as I mentioned. You know, Salam can now sell through Marketplace and they can actually sell that statement of work and put that on the AWS bill all by virtue of using Marketplace, that automation platform. >> Ease of use for customers, ease of use for partners as well. >> Yes. >> And that ease of use is it's no joke. It's, it's not just a marketing term. It's measurable and it's about time-to-value, time-to-market, getting customers ahead of their competition so that they can be successful. Guys, thanks for joining me on theCUBE today. Talking about AWS and >> Nice to be back. Nice to be back in person. >> Isn't it nice to be back. It's great to be actually sitting across from another human. >> Exactly. >> Thank you so much for your insights, what you shared about the partnership and where it's going. We appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Cool. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right guys. For Chris and Chris, I'm Lisa Martin, here watching theCUBE live from Las Vegas. I'll be back with my next guest momentarily, so stick around. (Upbeat techno music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to this cube conversation featuring Sendbird. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, John Kim joins me next, the CEO of Sendbird John, welcome to the program. Talk to the audience about Sendbird. What is it that you guys do? What gaps in the market did you see back in 2013? >>Yeah. Well thank you for so much and I'm excited to be here. So just to give you a quick introduction about Sendbird, we started a company back in 2013, and then we first started out as a consumer based product building social network for moms, but around 2015, when the world was really moving towards messaging, we kind of looked at as an opportunity to build a message feature for our own application. That's when we kind of realized a problem that we, there weren't really modern SDK or API products that can enable modern messaging experience for other applications. So we decided to kind of build that and then actually launched on the side, which actually became the main business. So we applied a wide Combinator with that idea and launched to the world in 2016 and then kind of fast forward, you know, good six years. We're now powering over a quarter billion users on a monthly basis, sending billions of billions of messages, cross different vertical site, online community site credit like door C. So it's kinda where we're today. >>And you're now valued at 1 billion. So a lot of evolution, a lot of momentum since 2013, especially since 2016, but also during the last couple of years. Talk to me about some of the philosophies and the approaches that Sendbird has applied to be driving such momentum during such volatile times. >>Yeah, I think over the years, what we're all came to realize is that more and more and more businesses are becoming mobile first. So by focusing on the mobile basic experiences, conversations really became one of the most efficient and effective ways to build relationship between the users as well as the relationship with the brands. So by incorporating experiences like messaging, people were able to increase the engagement and the retention and ultimately conversion within the applications. And that's kind of where we come in because more and more it's, it's becoming harder and harder for developers and the business operators to build modern messaging experience. So we really want to make sure that all of the developers and all of the businesses can harness the power of in a messaging as easily as possible, getting all the, you know, feature richness plus the scalability that you need. So we really try to build the best in class product so that you can have those know messaging within your application. >>Let's talk about that. So B building relationships in a digital world today is table stakes for any business consumers, patience was quite thin. The last couple of years, it probably still is to some extent, but building relationships in today's omnichannel world, whereas consumers, we expect we can go to many different applications, apps, and complain, or raise issues with technologies or products or services. How is that table stakes for an organization to be able to have that in-app experience to retain the customers, the data, the insights. >>Yeah. Today, if you think about how a businesses are engaging with customers, there are a lot of different channels, right? There's SMS, there's, you know, phone calls, direct mailing emails, and also a messaging. If you think about as a user, what is the best experience you want to have with the, with the brands it's usually through the mobile applications. That's why the entire mobile economy has really grew and exploded over the years. One thing that if you think about again as a user, what are the experience that you don't like to have is if you think about SMSs SM now plagued with like phishing and scams issues, FTC reported that they're more than hundreds of millions of dollars that are costing us consumers last year, and that's more than 50% growth from the previous year. So more and more of these kind of other external channels are becoming a channel for again, for like fishing and scams and really disrupting the user experience. >>But if you think about the, a messaging becoming your default mode of engaging with the brands and other users is secure more reliable, and also as businesses you get, you, you get to control the user experience, plus actually owning the data. So you can actually improve your products and services on top of that. So that's some of the approaches that we've seen over the years. More and more businesses are using in a messaging as the default mode of communication, and then using other channels as a, kind of like a last mile delivery in case, you know, users, miss certain kind of conversation, they may rely on those other channels as all that option. Just to touch a little bit on the, just to touch a little bit on the messaging side of things. So if you think about how the world is using messaging today, you might, you know, think of missing apps like yo meta facing messenger, or, you know, WhatsApp and all of this, this other kind of consumer applications, consumer mobile messaging is kind of really dominating the world. But if you think about individual businesses, you really don't really want to hand over those experiences and the user data to other kind of social media networks. So what you want to do is actually have that similar level, if not better experience within your application, but also be able to, again, own those data, control this, those data and make sure that your users and your customers are having a very clean and secure experience on your application. >>Absolutely. Without secure clean experience is critical for brands. Talk to me about how your customer conversations have evolved over the last few years as brand loyalty, customer satisfaction, scores, churn. All of these things are very impactful to organizations. Has the conversation risen up the C-suite? Is it, is it that impactful these days? >>Yeah. So B really based on the brands that you are operating again, like the customer engagement and customer retention, and sometimes the conversations turning into business outcomes through convergence, all of these things are really impacted a lot by the conversations or in a messaging. So what we've seen over the years is anywhere from the user acquisition perspective, from the marketing also within the user engagement retention, that's happening in your application, whether it be user to user or your sales team, having conversations with the customers, ultimately to like customer support measuring CS, and how do you keep the customers? Sure that customers never hit a dead end. All of this entire customer journey now can be mapped through messaging. So because that's becoming more and more important and critical for your business, now's the, if you think about our buyers today, we are talking to CEOs and CTOs, as well as chief digital officers in some of these enterprises companies. >>That makes sense. I mean, some of the, the benefits that you've mentioned, increasing retention, driving I'm direct sales cross sale up sale, brand loyalty that impacts every aspect of an organization, customer success, et cetera. Let's talk now about some customer examples. I know you mentioned Reddit. I know hinge is another great customer example. Give me a couple examples that really showcase the value that Sunbird delivers. >>Yeah. So Reddit has been one of our earliest customers, even when you're like just a C stage company. If you think about Reddit, red has successfully trans trans transformed from the web based company to a mobile first company. And by incorporating a messaging to a modern experiences, just like, again, once you have on WhatsApp, they're able to increase the user engagement and ultimately the retention on the application. So more and more users are coming back to the application in any given month. So that's one, one example. And again, keeping the community safe and secure is very, very important for a community like Reddit. So offering powerful and moderation capabilities for the community MOS. Those are also very important factors why Reddi decided to work with us. Some of the other examples, like, you know, Crafton pub, one of the world's most successful and largest games today now, they able, they were able to increase their user engagement and ultimately the overall, you know, session time within the game by incorporating messaging that powers the users online communities through lobby chat, as well as, you know, client chat. >>So how to keep the users more engaged in return to game and stay there for a longer period of time, ultimately increasing the lifetime value of the gamers. And then a few other like business industry use cases like keep trucking recently rebranded as motive, drastically improved the collaboration between this, you know, operations control and, and it's truck drivers. So those kind of communication capabilities obviously increase the safety of the drivers as well as the trust and then openness and overall collaboration within the businesses. So those are some of the examples. And I think we mentioned like hinge before, how do you kind of bring all of those conversations to stay within the applications? So the users don't have to reveal their, you know, personal information so that the conversation become, again, stays on the application, keep the user happy, more secure and safe for the, all the users. >>That security is something that keeps jumping out to me. We have seen the threat landscape change dramatically in the last couple of years. It is so amorphous, but you mentioned the SMS security issues that it has. And I, I think a staff that you guys provided to me was that the FTC reported that tech scams cost us consumers 131 million last year in 2021, which as you mentioned, is a huge increase from 2020. Talk a little bit more about the importance of being able to abstract some of that personal information as consumers. We give it out so freely and it's, it's a it's risk. >>Absolutely. So again, some of the most common fishing scams that we all as the consumers receive these days are, you know, pretending to be another businesses telling you, Hey, click here to, you know, get a refund on, on, on a credit card charge or, you know, there's a fraudulent cases. Like there's something that makes you either call a number or, you know, go to a certain link and you kind of have to trust and try to figure out is this a messaging that's really that brand that you are engaging with? Or is this something someone else that's pretending to that, to be that brand? So is the burden is on the end customers, unfortunately, all the fishings and everything's like a law, large, large number. So the more people you send out those messages, ultimately someone will get tricked into those messages and ultimately costing a lot of money for the end consumers. >>Now, the benefit of having enough conversations is that your users are secure when the users get a push notification or in a message, you know, where that's exactly happening, cuz you have full context of the business and the application you're in. And then whenever someone, somebody sends you a message, you know, the sender and the receiver's already authenticated. So those users are secure from the get go. And because of the contextual rich experience you have within the messaging, plus all those extra security layers they're bake to the user experience, the, the end benefit for the customers are incredible. Cuz again, you can trust the conversation that you're having with the brand and then the messages tend to be a lot more richer and better user experience, also better latency and just overall more frictionless experience for the end customers. So that gives a lot more safety and more benefit for the end customer as well as the business brands. >>Absolutely two things that you just said that really jumped out at me. Trust and authenticity. We think of the five generations that are in the workforce today, engaging with companies via apps that, that trust and authenticity and that security is. It just, it gets more important every day. Talk to me about when you're in customer conversations or you're talking with analysts, what are some of the things that you describe as the key differentiators that makes Sendbird in-app messaging really stand out about the competition? >>Yeah. One of the things that we really focus on was can we actually serve the world? So scalability is one of the key important aspects, how we were able to win customers like Reddit, you know, DoorDash and even like incredible customers like Paytm, one of the largest FinTech application in India. So being able to provide us scalability so that your customers, our customers, and the developers can go to sleep at night without having to worry about will this work now, but also other on top of top of those things, the feature richness cuz ultimately what our customer want is how can they engage with their customers in a modern and ale way. So by offering the features that are up in the latest, in the greatest that you'd expect out of other consumer application, again like WhatsApp, Facebook messenger, or even things like slack, we offer a lot of those features from get go. >>So by having those feature richness out of the box, you can implement a modern missing experience from day one. So you can go to market much faster, but also give more trust for the users cuz ultimately end customers are already used to using the best missing experiences out there. So as soon as they kind of feel the experience are a little bit, you know, outdated, they'll stop trusting the brand. So how do you kind of give them moderate and trusting and, and secure experience for the user is very, very critical for the businesses. So you can offer those again from out of the box, >>Out of the box, absolutely table stakes for businesses in every industry. John, thank you so much for coming on the queue today. Talking to me about Sendbird in-app messaging, the values, the benefits, the what's in it for customers and businesses. We appreciate your insights. >>Thanks. So >>John Kim I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching this conversation.

(gentle melody) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of AWS Summit in San Francisco, California. Events are back. AWS Summit in New York City this summer, theCUBE will be there as well. Check us out there. I'm glad to have events back. It's great to have of everyone here. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Dr. Matt Wood is with me, CUBE alumni, now VP of Business Analytics Division of AWS. Matt, great to see you. >> Thank you, John. It's great to be here. I appreciate it. >> I always call you Dr. Matt Wood because Andy Jackson always says, "Dr. Matt, we would introduce you on the arena." (Matt laughs) >> Matt: The one and only. >> The one and only, Dr. Matt Wood. >> In joke, I love it. (laughs) >> Andy style. (Matt laughs) I think you had walk up music too. >> Yes, we all have our own personalized walk up music. >> So talk about your new role, not a new role, but you're running the analytics business for AWS. What does that consist of right now? >> Sure. So I work. I've got what I consider to be one of the best jobs in the world. I get to work with our customers and the teams at AWS to build the analytics services that millions of our customers use to slice dice, pivot, better understand their data, look at how they can use that data for reporting, looking backwards. And also look at how they can use that data looking forward, so predictive analytics and machine learning. So whether it is slicing and dicing in the lower level of Hadoop and the big data engines, or whether you're doing ETL with Glue, or whether you're visualizing the data in QuickSight or building your models in SageMaker. I got my fingers in a lot of pies. >> One of the benefits of having CUBE coverage with AWS since 2013 is watching the progression. You were on theCUBE that first year we were at Reinvent in 2013, and look at how machine learning just exploded onto the scene. You were involved in that from day one. It's still day one, as you guys say. What's the big thing now? Look at just what happened. Machine learning comes in and then a slew of services come in. You've got SageMaker, became a hot seller right out of the gate. The database stuff was kicking butt. So all this is now booming. That was a real generational change over for database. What's the perspective? What's your perspective on that's evolved? >> I think it's a really good point. I totally agree. I think for machine learning, there's sort of a Renaissance in machine learning and the application of machine learning. Machine learning as a technology has been around for 50 years, let's say. But to do machine learning right, you need like a lot of data. The data needs to be high quality. You need a lot of compute to be able to train those models and you have to be able to evaluate what those models mean as you apply them to real world problems. And so the cloud really removed a lot of the constraints. Finally, customers had all of the data that they needed. We gave them services to be able to label that data in a high quality way. There's all the compute you need to be able to train the models. And so where you go? And so the cloud really enabled this Renaissance with machine learning. And we're seeing honestly a similar Renaissance with data and analytics. If you look back five to ten years, analytics was something you did in batch, your data warehouse ran an analysis to do reconciliation at the end of the month, and that was it. (John laughs) And so that's when you needed it. But today, if your Redshift cluster isn't available, Uber drivers don't turn up, DoorDash deliveries don't get made. Analytics is now central to virtually every business, and it is central to virtually every business's digital transformation. And being able to take that data from a variety of sources, be able to query it with high performance, to be able to actually then start to augment that data with real information, which usually comes from technical experts and domain experts to form wisdom and information from raw data. That's kind of what most organizations are trying to do when they kind of go through this analytics journey. >> It's interesting. Dave Velanta and I always talk on theCUBE about the future. And you look back, the things we're talking about six years ago are actually happening now. And it's not hyped up statement to say digital transformation is actually happening now. And there's also times when we bang our fists on the table saying, say, "I really think this is so important." And David says, "John, you're going to die on that hill." (Matt laughs) And so I'm excited that this year, for the first time, I didn't die on that hill. I've been saying- >> Do all right. >> Data as code is the next infrastructure as code. And Dave's like, "What do you mean by that?" We're talking about how data gets... And it's happening. So we just had an event on our AWS startups.com site, a showcase for startups, and the theme was data as code. And interesting new trends emerging really clearly, the role of a data engineer, right? Like an SRE, what an SRE did for cloud, you have a new data engineering role because of the developer onboarding is massively increasing, exponentially, new developers. Data science scientists are growing, but the pipelining and managing and engineering as a system, almost like an operating system. >> Kind of as a discipline. >> So what's your reaction to that about this data engineer, data as code? Because if you have horizontally scalable data, you've got to be open, that's hard (laughs), okay? And you got to silo the data that needs to be siloed for compliance and reason. So that's a big policy around that. So what's your reaction to data's code and the data engineering phenomenon? >> It's a really good point. I think with any technology project inside of an organization, success with analytics or machine learning, it's kind of 50% technology and then 50% cultural. And you have often domain experts. Those could be physicians or drug design experts, or they could be financial experts or whoever they might be, got deep domain expertise, and then you've got technical implementation teams. And there's kind of a natural, often repulsive force. I don't mean that rudely, but they just don't talk the same language. And so the more complex a domain and the more complex the technology, the stronger their repulsive force. And it can become very difficult for domain experts to work closely with the technical experts to be able to actually get business decisions made. And so what data engineering does and data engineering is, in some cases a team, or it can be a role that you play. It's really allowing those two disciplines to speak the same language. You can think of it as plumbing, but I think of it as like a bridge. It's a bridge between the technical implementation and the domain experts, and that requires a very disparate range of skills. You've got to understand about statistics, you've got to understand about the implementation, you got to understand about the data, you got to understand about the domain. And if you can put all of that together, that data engineering discipline can be incredibly transformative for an organization because it builds the bridge between those two groups. >> I was advising some young computer science students at the sophomore, junior level just a couple of weeks ago, and I told them I would ask someone at Amazon this question. So I'll ask you, >> Matt: Okay. since you've been in the middle of it for years, they were asking me, and I was trying to mentor them on how do you become a data engineer, from a practical standpoint? Courseware, projects to work on, how to think, not just coding Python, because everyone's coding in Python, but what else can they do? So I was trying to help them. I didn't really know the answer myself. I was just trying to kind of help figure it out with them. So what is the answer, in your opinion, or the thoughts around advice to young students who want to be data engineers? Because data scientists is pretty clear on what that is. You use tools, you make visualizations, you manage data, you get answers and insights and then apply that to the business. That's an application. That's not the standing up a stack or managing the infrastructure. So what does that coding look like? What would your advice be to folks getting into a data engineering role? >> Yeah, I think if you believe this, what I said earlier about 50% technology, 50 % culture, the number one technology to learn as a data engineer is the tools in the cloud which allow you to aggregate data from virtually any source into something which is incrementally more valuable for the organization. That's really what data engineering is all about. It's about taking from multiple sources. Some people call them silos, but silos indicates that the storage is kind of fungible or undifferentiated. That's really not the case. Success requires you to have really purpose built, well crafted, high performance, low cost engines for all of your data. So understanding those tools and understanding how to use them, that's probably the most important technical piece. Python and programming and statistics go along with that, I think. And then the most important cultural part, I think is... It's just curiosity. You want to be able to, as a data engineer, you want to have a natural curiosity that drives you to seek the truth inside an organization, seek the truth of a particular problem, and to be able to engage because probably you're going to some choice as you go through your career about which domain you end up in. Maybe you're really passionate about healthcare, or you're really just passionate about transportation or media, whatever it might be. And you can allow that to drive a certain amount of curiosity. But within those roles, the domains are so broad you kind of got to allow your curiosity to develop and lead you to ask the right questions and engage in the right way with your teams, because you can have all the technical skills in the world. But if you're not able to help the team's truth seek through that curiosity, you simply won't be successful. >> We just had a guest, 20 year old founder, Johnny Dallas who was 16 when he worked at Amazon. Youngest engineer- >> Johnny Dallas is a great name, by the way. (both chuckle) >> It's his real name. It sounds like a football player. >> That's awesome. >> Rock star. Johnny CUBE, it's me. But he's young and he was saying... His advice was just do projects. >> Matt: And get hands on. Yeah. >> And I was saying, hey, I came from the old days where you get to stand stuff up and you hugged on for the assets because you didn't want to kill the project because you spent all this money. And he's like, yeah, with cloud you can shut it down. If you do a project that's not working and you get bad data no one's adopting it or you don't like it anymore, you shut it down, just something else. >> Yeah, totally. >> Instantly abandon it and move on to something new. That's a progression. >> Totally! The blast radius of decisions is just way reduced. We talk a lot about in the old world, trying to find the resources and get the funding is like, all right, I want to try out this kind of random idea that could be a big deal for the organization. I need $50 million and a new data center. You're not going to get anywhere. >> And you do a proposal, working backwards, documents all kinds of stuff. >> All that sort of stuff. >> Jump your hoops. >> So all of that is gone. But we sometimes forget that a big part of that is just the prototyping and the experimentation and the limited blast radius in terms of cost, and honestly, the most important thing is time, just being able to jump in there, fingers on keyboards, just try this stuff out. And that's why at AWS, we have... Part of the reason we have so many services, because we want, when you get into AWS, we want the whole toolbox to be available to every developer. And so as your ideas develop, you may want to jump from data that you have that's already in a database to doing realtime data. And then you have the tools there. And when you want to get into real time data, you don't just have kinesis, you have real time analytics, and you can run SQL against that data. The capabilities and the breadth really matter when it comes to prototyping. >> That's the culture piece, because what was once a dysfunctional behavior. I'm going to go off the reservation and try something behind my boss' back, now is a side hustle or fun project. So for fun, you can just code something. >> Yeah, totally. I remember my first Hadoop projects. I found almost literally a decommissioned set of servers in the data center that no one was using. They were super old. They're about to be literally turned off. And I managed to convince the team to leave them on for me for another month. And I installed Hadoop on them and got them going. That just seems crazy to me now that I had to go and convince anybody not to turn these servers off. But what it was like when you- >> That's when you came up with Elastic MapReduce because you said this is too hard, we got to make it easier. >> Basically yes. (John laughs) I was installing Hadoop version Beta 9.9 or whatever. It was like, this is really hard. >> We got to make it simpler. All right, good stuff. I love the walk down memory Lane. And also your advice. Great stuff. I think culture is huge. That's why I like Adam's keynote at Reinvent, Adam Selipsky talk about Pathfinders and trailblazers, because that's a blast radius impact when you can actually have innovation organically just come from anywhere. That's totally cool. >> Matt: Totally cool. >> All right, let's get into the product. Serverless has been hot. We hear a lot of EKS is hot. Containers are booming. Kubernetes is getting adopted, still a lot of work to do there. Cloud native developers are booming. Serverless, Lambda. How does that impact the analytics piece? Can you share the hot products around how that translates? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Aurora, SageMaker. >> Yeah, I think it's... If you look at kind of the evolution and what customers are asking for, they don't just want low cost. They don't just want this broad set of services. They don't just want those services to have deep capabilities. They want those services to have as low an operating cost over time as possible. So we kind of really got it down. We got built a lot of muscle, a lot of services about getting up and running and experimenting and prototyping and turning things off and turning them on and turning them off. And that's all great. But actually, you really only in most projects start something once and then stop something once, and maybe there's an hour in between or maybe there's a year. But the real expense in terms of time and operations and complexity is sometimes in that running cost. And so we've heard very loudly and clearly from customers that running cost is just undifferentiated to them. And they want to spend more time on their work. And in analytics, that is slicing the data, pivoting the data, combining the data, labeling the data, training their models, running inference against their models, and less time doing the operational pieces. >> Is that why the service focuses there? >> Yeah, absolutely. It dramatically reduces the skill required to run these workloads of any scale. And it dramatically reduces the undifferentiated heavy lifting because you get to focus more of the time that you would have spent on the operations on the actual work that you want to get done. And so if you look at something just like Redshift Serverless, that we launched a Reinvent, we have a lot of customers that want to run the cluster, and they want to get into the weeds where there is benefit. We have a lot of customers that say there's no benefit for me, I just want to do the analytics. So you run the operational piece, you're the experts. We run 60 million instant startups every single day. We do this a lot. >> John: Exactly. We understand the operations- >> I just want the answers. Come on. >> So just give me the answers or just give me the notebook or just give me the inference prediction. Today, for example, we announced Serverless Inference. So now once you've trained your machine learning model, just run a few lines of code or you just click a few buttons and then you got an inference endpoint that you do not have to manage. And whether you're doing one query against that end point per hour or you're doing 10 million, we'll just scale it on the back end. I know we got not a lot of time left, but I want to get your reaction on this. One of the things about the data lakes not being data swamps has been, from what I've been reporting and hearing from customers, is that they want to retrain their machine learning algorithm. They need that data, they need the real time data, and they need the time series data. Even though the time has passed, they got to store in the data lake. So now the data lake's main function is being reusing the data to actually retrain. It works properly. So a lot of post mortems turn into actually business improvements to make the machine learnings smarter, faster. Do you see that same way? Do you see it the same way? >> Yeah, I think it's really interesting >> Or is that just... >> No, I think it's totally interesting because it's convenient to kind of think of analytics as a very clear progression from point A to point B. But really, you're navigating terrain for which you do not have a map, and you need a lot of help to navigate that terrain. And so having these services in place, not having to run the operations of those services, being able to have those services be secure and well governed. And we added PII detection today. It's something you can do automatically, to be able to use any unstructured data, run queries against that unstructured data. So today we added text queries. So you can just say, well, you can scan a badge, for example, and say, well, what's the name on this badge? And you don't have to identify where it is. We'll do all of that work for you. It's more like a branch than it is just a normal A to B path, a linear path. And that includes loops backwards. And sometimes you've got to get the results and use those to make improvements further upstream. And sometimes you've got to use those... And when you're downstream, it will be like, "Ah, I remember that." And you come back and bring it all together. >> Awesome. >> So it's a wonderful world for sure. >> Dr. Matt, we're here in theCUBE. Just take the last word and give the update while you're here what's the big news happening that you're announcing here at Summit in San Francisco, California, and update on the business analytics group. >> Yeah, we did a lot of announcements in the keynote. I encourage everyone to take a look at, that this morning with Swami. One of the ones I'm most excited about is the opportunity to be able to take dashboards, visualizations. We're all used to using these things. We see them in our business intelligence tools, all over the place. However, what we've heard from customers is like, yes, I want those analytics, I want that visualization, I want it to be up to date, but I don't actually want to have to go from my tools where I'm actually doing my work to another separate tool to be able to look at that information. And so today we announced 1-click public embedding for QuickSight dashboard. So today you can literally as easily as embedding a YouTube video, you can take a dashboard that you've built inside QuickSight, cut and paste the HTML, paste it into your application and that's it. That's what you have to do. It takes seconds. >> And it gets updated in real time. >> Updated in real time. It's interactive. You can do everything that you would normally do. You can brand it, there's no power by QuickSight button or anything like that. You can change the colors, fit in perfectly with your application. So that's an incredibly powerful way of being able to take an analytics capability that today sits inside its own little fiefdom and put it just everywhere. Very transformative. >> Awesome. And the business is going well. You got the Serverless detail win for you there. Good stuff. Dr. Matt Wood, thank you for coming on theCUBE. >> Anytime. Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS Summit 2022 in San Francisco, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Stay with us for more coverage of day two after this short break. (gentle music)

(bright intro music) >> Welcome to this "Cube Conversation". I'm your host, Lisa Martin. This is part of our third AWS Start-up Showcase. And I'm pleased to welcome two gentlemen from Rockset, Venkat Venkataramani is here, the CEO and co-founder and Dhruba Borthakur, CTO and co-founder. Gentlemen, welcome to the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Excited to learn more about Rockset, Venkat, talk to me about Rockset and how it's putting real-time analytics within the reach of every company. >> If you see the confluent IPO, if you see where the world is going in terms of analytics, I know, we look at this, real-time analytics is like the lost frontier. Everybody wants fast queries on fresh data. Nobody wants to say, "I don't need that. You know, give me slow queries on stale data," right? I think if you see what data warehouses and data lakes have done, especially in the cloud, they've really, really made batch analytics extremely accessible, but real-time analytics still seems too clumsy, too complex, and too expensive for most people. And we are on a mission to make, you know, real-time analytics, make it very, very easy and affordable for everybody to be able to take advantage of that. So that's our, that's what we do. >> But you're right, nobody wants a stale data or slower queries. And it seems like one of the things that we learned, Venkat, sticking with you in the last 18 months of a very strange world that we're living in, is that real-time is no longer a nice to have. It's really a differentiator and table stakes for businesses in every industry. How do you make it more affordable and accessible to businesses in so many different industries? >> I think that's a great question. I think there are, at a very high level, there are two categories of use cases we see. I think there is one full category of use cases where business teams and business units are demanding almost like business observability. You know, if you think about one domain that actually understood real-time and made everything work in real-time is the DevOps world, you know, metrics and monitoring coming out of like, you know, all these machines and because they really want to know as soon as something goes wrong, immediately, I want to, you know, be able to dive in and click and see what happens. But now businesses are demanding the same thing, right? Like a CEO wants to know, "Are we on track to hit our quarterly estimates or not? And tell me now what's happening," because you know, the larger the company, the more complex that have any operations dashboards are. And, you know, if you don't give them real-time visibility, the window of opportunity to do something about it disappears. And so they are really, businesses is really demanding that. And so that is one big use case we have. And the other strange thing we're also seeing is that customers are demanding real-time even from the products they are using. So you could be using a SaaS product for sales automation, support automation, marketing automation. Now I don't want to use a product if it doesn't have real-time analytics baked into the product itself. And so all these software companies, you know, providing a SaaS service to their cloud customers and clients, they are also looking to actually, you know, their proof of value really comes from the analytics that they can show within the product. And if that is not interactive and real-time, then they are also going to be left behind. So it's really a huge differentiator whether you're building a software product or your running a business, the real-time observability gives you a window of opportunity to actually do something about, you know, when something goes wrong, you can actually act on it very, very quickly. >> Right, which is absolutely critical. Dhruba, I want to get your take on this. As the CTO and co-founder as I introduced you, what were some of the gaps in the market back in 2016 that you saw that really necessitated the development of this technology? >> Yeah, for real-time analytics, the difference compared to what it was earlier is that all your things used to be a lot of batch processes. Again, the reason being because there was something called MapReduce, and that was a scanning system that was kind of a invention from Google, which talked about processing big data sets. And it was about scanning, scanning large data sets to give answers. Whereas for real-time analytics, the new trend is that how can you index these big datasets so that you can answer queries really fast? So this is what Rockset does as well, is that we have capabilities to index humongous amounts of data cheaply, efficiently, and economically feasible for our customers. And that's why query is the leverage the index to give fast (indistinct). This is one of the big changes. The other change obviously is that it has moved to the cloud, right? A lot of analytics have moved to the cloud. So Rockset is built natively for the cloud, which is why we can scale up, scale down resources when queries come and we can provide a great (indistinct) for people as data latency, and as far as query latencies comes on, both of these things. So these two trends, I think, are kind of the power behind moving, making people use more real-time analytics. >> Right, and as Venkat was talking about how it's an absolute differentiator for businesses, you know, last year we saw this really, this quick, all these quick pivots to survive and ultimately thrive. And we're seeing the businesses now coming out of this, that we're able to do that, and we're able to pivot to digital, to be successful and to out-compete those who maybe were not as fast. I saw that recently, Venkat, you guys had a new product release a few weeks ago, major product release, that is making real-time analytics on streaming data sources like Apache Kafka, Amazon Kinesis, Amazon DynamoDB, and data lakes a lot more accessible and affordable. Breakdown that launch for me, and how is it doing the accessibility and affordability that you talked about before? >> Extremely good question. So we're really excited about what we call SQL-based roll-ups, is what we call that release. So what does that do? So if you think about real-time analytics and even teeing off the previous question you asked on what is the gap in the market? The gap in the market is really, all that houses and lakes are built for batch. You know, they're really good at letting people accumulate huge volumes of data, and once a week, analyst asking a question, generating a report, and everybody's looking at it. And with real-time, the data never stops coming. The queries never stop coming. So how do you, if I want real-time metrics on all this huge volumes of data coming in, now if I drain it into a huge data lake and then I'm doing analytics on that, it gets very expensive and very complex very quickly. And so the new release that we had is called SQL-based roll-ups, where simply using SQL, you can define any real-time metric that you want to track across any dimensions you care about. It could be geo demographic and other dimensions you care about that and Rockset will automatically maintain all those real-time metrics for you in real-time in a highly accurate fashion. So you never have to doubt whether the metrics are valid and it will be accurate up to the second. And the best part is you don't have to learn a new language. You can actually use SQL to define those metrics and Rockset will automatically maintain that and scale that for you in the cloud. And that, I think, reduces the barrier. So like if somebody wants to build a real-time, you know, track something for their business in real-time, you know, you have to duct tape together multiple, disparate components and systems that were never meant to work with each other. Now you have a real-time database built for the cloud that is fully, you know, supports full feature SQL. So you can do this in a matter of minutes, which would probably take you days or weeks with alternate technologies. >> That's a dramatic X reduction in time there. I want to mention the Snowflake IPO since you guys mentioned the Confluent IPO. You say that Rockset does for real-time, what Snowflake did for batch. Dhruba, I want to get your perspective on that. Tell me about that. What do you mean by that? >> Yeah, so like we see this trend in the market where lot of analytics, which are very batch, they get a lot of value if they've moved more real-time, right? Like Venkat mentioned, when analytics powers, actual products, which need to use analytics into their, to make the product better. So Rockset very much plays in this area. So Rockset is the only solution. I shouldn't say solution. It's a database, it's a real-time database, which powers these kind of analytic systems. If you don't use Rockset, then you might be using maybe a warehouse or something, but you cannot get real-time because there is always a latency of putting data into the warehouse. It could be minutes, it could be hours. And then also you don't get too many people making concurrent queries on the warehouse. So this is another difference for real-time analytics because it powers applications, the query volume could be large. So that's why you need a real-time database and not a real-time warehouse or any other technologies for this. And this trend has really caught up because most people have either, are pretty much into this journey. You asked me this previous question about what has changed since 2016 as well. And this is a journey that most enterprises we see are already embarking upon. >> One thing too, that we're seeing is that more and more applications are becoming data intensive applications, right? We think of whether it's Instagram or DoorDash or whatnot, or even our banking app, we expect to have the information updated immediately. How do you help, Dhruba, sticking with you, how do you help businesses build and power those data intensive applications that the consumers are demanding? >> That's a great question. And we have booked, me and Venkat, we have seen these data applications at large scale when we were at Facebook earlier. We were both parts of the Facebook team. So we saw how real-time was really important for building that kind of a business, that was social media. But now we are taking the same kind of back ends, which can scale to like huge volumes of data to the enterprises as well. Venkat, do you have anything to add? >> Yeah, I think when you're trying to go from batch to real-time, you're 100% spot on that, a static report, a static dashboard actually becomes an application, becomes a data application, and it has to be interactive. So you're not just showing a newspaper where you just get to read. You want to click and deep dive, do slice and dice the data to not only understand what happened, but why it happened and come up with hypotheses to figure out what I want to do with it. So the interactivity is important and the real-timeliness now it becomes important. So the way we think about it is like, once you go into real-time analytics, you know, the data never stops coming. That's obvious. Data freshness is important. But the queries never stop coming also because one, when your dashboards and metrics are getting up to date real-time, you really want alerts and anomaly detection to be automatically built in. And so you don't even have to look at the graphs once a week. When something is off, the system will come and tap on your shoulder and say, "Hey, something is going on." And so that really is a real-time application at that point, because it's constantly looking at the data and querying on your behalf and only alerting you when something, actually, is interesting happening that you might need to look at. So yeah, the whole movement towards data applications and data intensive apps is a huge use case for us. I think most of our customers, I would say, are building a data application in one shape or form or another. >> And if I think of use cases like cutthroat customer 360, you know, as customers and consumers of whatever product or solution we're talking about, we expect that these brands know who we are, know what we've done with them, what we've bought, what to show me next is what I expect whether again, it's my bank or it's Instagram or something else. So that personalization approach is absolutely critical, and I imagine another big game changer, differentiator for the customers that use Rockset. What do you guys think about that? >> Absolutely, personalized recommendation is a huge use case. We see this all where we have, you know, Ritual is one of the customers. We have a case study on that, I think. They want to personalize. They generate offline recommendations for anything that the user is buying, but they want to use behavioral data from the product to personalize that experience and combine the two before they serve anything on the checkout lane, right? We also see in B2B companies, real-time analytics and data applications becoming a very important thing. And we have another customer, Command Alkon, who, you know, they have a supply chain platform for heavy construction and 80% of concrete in North America flows through their platform, for example. And what they want to know in real-time is reporting on how many concrete trucks are arriving at a big construction site, which ones are late and whatnot. And the real-time, you know, analytics needs to be accurate and needs to be, you know, up to the second, you know, don't tell me what trucks were, you know, coming like an hour ago. No, I need this right now. And so even in a B2B platform, we see that very similar trend trend where real-time reporting, real-time search, real-time indexing is actually a very, very important piece to the puzzle. And not just for B to C examples that you said, and the Instagram comment is also very appropriate because a hedge fund customer came to us and said, "I have kind of a dashboards built on top of like Snowflake. They're taking two to five seconds and I have certain parts of my dashboards, but I am actually having 50/60 visualizations. You do the math, it takes many minutes to load. And so they said, "Hey, you have some indexing deck. Can you make this faster?" Three weeks later, the queries that would take two to five seconds on a traditional warehouse or a cloud data warehouse came back in 18 milliseconds with Rockset. And so it is so fast that they said, you know, "If my internal dashboards are not as fast as Instagram, no one in my company uses it." These are their words. And so they are really, you know, the speed is really, really important. The scale is really, really important. Data freshness is important. If you combine all of these things and also make it simple for people to access with SQL-based, that's really the real unique value prop that we have a Rockset, which is what our customers love. >> You brought up something interesting, Venkat, that kind of made me think of the employee experience. You know, we always think of the customer 360. The customer experience with the employee experience, in my opinion, is inextricably linked. The employees have to have access to what they need to deliver and help these great customer relationships. And as you were saying, you know, the employees are expecting databases to be as fast as they see on Instagram, when they're, you know, surfing on their free time. Then adoption, I imagine, gets better, obviously, than the benefit from the end user and customers' perspective is that speed. Talk to me a little bit about how Rockset, and I would like to get both of your opinions here, is a facilitator of that employee productivity for your customers. >> This is a great question. In fact, the same hedge fund, you know, customer, I pushed them to go and measure how many times do people even look at all the data that you produce? (laughs) How many analysts and investors actually use your dashboards and ask them to go investigate at that. And one of the things that they eventually showed me was there was a huge uptake and their dashboards went from two to three second kind of like, you know, lags to 18 milliseconds. They almost got the daily active user for their own internal dashboards to be almost going from five people to the entire company, you know, so I think you're absolutely spot on. So it really goes back to, you know, really leveraging the data and actually doing something about it. Like, you know, if I ask a question and it's going to, you know, system is going to take 20 minutes to answer that, you know, I will probably not ask as many questions as I want to. When it becomes interactive and very, very fast, and all of a sudden, I not only start with a question and, you know, I can ask a follow-up question and then another follow-up question and make it really drive that to, you know, a conclusion and I can actually act upon it. And this really accelerates. So even if you kind of like, look at the macro, you hear these phrases, the world is going from batch to real-time, and in my opinion, when I look at this, people want to, you know, accelerate their growth. People want to make faster decisions. People want to get to, what can I do about this and get actionable insights. And that is not really going to come from systems that take 20 minutes to give a response. It's going to really come from systems that are interactive and real-time, and that's really the need for acceleration is what's really driving this movement from batch to real-time. And we're very happy to facilitate that and accelerate that moment. >> And it really drives the opportunity for your customers to monetize more and more data so that they can actually act on it, as you said, in real-time and do something about it, whether it's a positive experience or it is, you know, remediating a challenge. Last question guys, since we're almost out of time here, but I want to understand, talk to me about the Rockset-AWS partnership and what the value is for your customers. >> Okay, yeah. I'll get to that in a second, but I wanted to add something to your previous question. I think my opinion for all the customers that we see is that real-time analytics is addictive. Once they get used to it, they can go back to the old stuff. So this is what we have found with all our customers. So, yeah, for the AWS question, I think maybe Venkat can answer that better than me. >> Yeah, I mean, we love partnering with AWS. I think, they are the world's leader when it comes to public clouds. We have a lot of joint happy customers that are all AWS customers. Rockset is entirely built on top of AWS, and we love that. And there is a lot of integrations that Rockset natively comes with. So if you're already managing your data in AWS, you know, there are no data transfer costs or anything like that involved for you to also, you know, index that data in Rockset and actually build real-time applications and stream the data to Rockset. So I think the partnership goes in very, very deep in terms of like, we are an AWS customer, we are a partner and we, you know, our go-to market teams work with them. And so, yeah, we're very, very happy, you know, like, AWS fanboys here, yeah. >> Excellent, it sounds like a very great synergistic collaborative relationship, and I love, Dhruba, what you said. This is like, this is a great quote. "Real-time analytics is addictive." That sounds to me like a good addiction (all subtly laugh) for businesses and every industry to take out. Guys, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for joining me, talking to the audience about Rockset, what differentiates you, and how you're helping customers really improve their customer productivity, their employee productivity, and beyond. We appreciate your time. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Thank you, thanks a lot. >> For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this "Cube Conversation". (bright ending music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of PagerDuty Summit, I'm your host from theCUBE Natalie Erlich. Now we're joined by Sean Scott, the Chief Product Officer at PagerDuty, thank you very much for joining the program. >> Glad to be here, thank you for having me. >> Terrific. Well, you've been with PagerDuty for about six months, how's it going? >> It's going great. So, I joined PagerDuty because I saw the entire world was shifting to digital first and PagerDuty is key infrastructure for many of the world's largest companies, in fact over 60% of the Fortune 100 are customers. And more importantly, I see a much broader future our platform will play in digital operations for these companies going forward, and I'm excited to be part of that. >> Terrific. Well, you have really robust experience, over 20 years in the Valley leading product, marketing, and engineering teams. What prompted the move? I mean, you explained a bit, but just really curious why you made that? >> Sure, so yeah I had a long career at Amazon where I was responsible for much of the shopping experience, I ran the homepage, product page, checkout, a lot of the underlying tools and tech that supports that worldwide across all devices. And then more recently I built and launched the Scout autonomous delivery robot from the ground up, so. But after 15 years, and I was starting to look for a change and I started talking to Jen, our CEO, and the more we talked, the more excited I became about the platform and what it can be going forward for our customers. You know, the fact that we are already integrated with so many customers around the world and playing such a critical role as part of their infrastructure, and yet, I think we're just getting started, and we can help out companies in so many more use cases across our organizations and really eliminate a lot of time and waste from their processes. Well, this is your first PagerDuty Summit, I would love it if you could share perhaps some insight what you're planning to announce this week? >> Yeah, sure. So, we have a few things that we're announcing. One is, we announced last year, probably the biggest news last September was our acquisition of Rundeck; and so as part of that we're announcing our first integration of PagerDuty and Rundeck in the form of Runbook actions. So this is a, you could think of it as kind of quick, kind of micro-automations or short automations to give responders much more insights into what's actually happening with an incident. So maybe it's running a MIM command or a script on a server, we can actually run that directly from the PagerDuty interface so you don't have to SSH into a box for example, which is all just takes time and effort, and so when you're trying to remediate an issue of maybe a site being down or a service being down, it all happens right there. And even your frontline responders can now do those remediations as well, and those automation actions, to again, before they need to escalate to the next tier or bring in other devs to help troubleshoot. So that's pretty exciting. We're also announcing Service Craft, which is a new way to model your services and to show your services, and really understand your dependency graph. So if you think about one of the biggest challenges often when you're trying to remediate an issue is understanding is it me, or is it one of my dependent services? And so now we actually have new visualizations to really show the responders exactly what's happening and you can quickly see is it you, or is it maybe some dependency, maybe multiple teams are having the same issue that because one of the core services that everybody leverages is down and you can quickly see that. So that's pretty exciting as well. We have change correlation and incident outliers. So change correlation, you know, most incidents occur because of changes that were made by us people, and so being able to spotlight things like here's a change that was recently made, or here's a change based on our machine learning algorithms that we detected that could be a culprit here. So providing much richer insights, to again, reduce that mean time to resolution. So this whole team, our Event Intelligence team, that's our whole purpose in life is really just to reduce that mean time to resolution for our customers. Imagine waking up, you know, tomorrow, and your mean time to resolution just magically goes down because of our software updates, and that's how that team focuses on. And then the last one in this group is internet outliers, which is all about telling you if an incident, is this rare, or is this a frequent incident? And just giving you a little more insights into what you're seeing, which will again, help the responders. We have some other announcements coming up, but I'll save that for Summit. >> Perfect. Well, you know, I'd love it if you could share some insight on the competitive landscape, and how PagerDuty is, how you see its product that they're offering different from the others? >> Sure. So, we go head-to-head with a lot of competitors, and we, we have the, you know, being in the fortunate position that we do have a few competitors coming after us and some big names as well. But, you know, when we go head-to-head with these companies, we generally win. And we see we're constantly getting put in bake-offs with these other competitors. We had one customer I was talking to a few weeks back and they paired us against the incumbent, and out of the box, we saw a 50% improvement in mean time to acknowledge, so this is how quickly we can pull in the responder. And then in addition, I thought was more interesting, is we saw a 50% improvement in the mean time to resolution over the incumbent. And so while we do have competitors coming at us, I'm really happy with the way our product performs and our customers are too. So after these bake-offs, it's usually pretty clear who's staying and who's going. >> Yeah, so, when you were helping develop this program this week, what were some of the key areas that you really wanted to highlight? >> Yeah, so one of the big areas is really talking about our vision, and what is our go forward plan. Because I think while we're really known for incident response, I think, you know, some of the exciting things you'll hear about at Summit are kind of where we're going in terms of four pillars to our vision. One is flexibility. Flexible workflows, and enabling flexibility. So, if you think about all the things that our product is doing beyond DevOps. So for example, you know, we had a customer telling us about they had put PagerDuty in front of everything they're doing, so their whole building is IP enabled, and so they had a contractor drill through a water main, and it was instantly able to shut off the water. So they, you know, within 30 seconds, PagerDuty had notified the right responders of building maintenance, and within a minute and a half the water was shut off, and they made the comment that PagerDuty just paid for itself with this one incident. We see IOT device management, we see even organ transplant delivery using our product, and so we want to continue to fuel that with our flexibility. Second pillar is connect to everyone. We see that we have a lot of people connected, but we just launched fairly recently a customer service offering, so now we can get customer service not only informed what's going on, but also connecting to the dev teams, and engineering teams, and the service owners, to really give them more insights into the blast radius and what they may be seeing. The next one is connect everything. So we have over 550 out of the box integrations, and so that makes it seamless to connect to apps like Datadog. But then also we work where our customers work, so we can actually do work in Slack or MS Teams and take action right in those tools. And the last one is automate away to toil. So we want to automate what can be automated, and this goes back to the Rundeck acquisition that I mentioned, and getting that more deeply integrated with the stack, and with processes across an organization. And we're seeing that when our customers really take advantage of that platform they can really automate away to toil, and automate a lot of redundant work, and work that is just busy work that keeps people from doing their day jobs, so to speak. >> Yeah, well, obviously we had a really unusual last year with the pandemic. How do you think that it changed up business for you? Did it inspire you to move in a new direction? What do you see next in the near future? >> For sure. So, I saw that, and it's probably the reason why I came to PagerDuty, because I saw the transformation industries are making to digital first. Right? And so there was a lot of teams, a lot of companies struggled, but then a lot of companies also, florists, you'd take companies like Instacart, and DoorDash, and Zoom, you know, had a terrific year. And so, you know, PagerDuty, even with the pandemic, and companies that were struggling, we still grew pretty rapidly last year, and that's, I think it's pretty exciting, and it really speaks to that migration to digital where digital is now becoming, you know, table stakes, and just part of what you have to do as a business as opposed to it used to be a goal that oh, we need to do more on digital platform, and now it's like, you have to, you know, focus on your digital platform if you want to simply stay relevant today. And so I think that's really important for PagerDuty because that's where we really help companies thrive. >> Sean, that's really interesting. To close out this interview, do you have any last thoughts? >> No, I think that covers it, I think we're, you know, really excited to grow with our customers and we're seeing great traction in the market, and look forward to a bright future, and our platform really helping customers solve new problems that they might've not even considered us for yet. >> Terrific. Well, thank you very much for your insights. Sean Scott, the Chief Product Officer at PagerDuty. And that wraps up our coverage today for the PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host Natalie Erlich for theCUBE. Thank you for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background, it's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante is on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City, with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it up day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. I love what you guys have got over here, very fun. >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> Know, I mean the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel as people walk in and see what the future looks like to the Telecoms industry, it's very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage. We've been really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually the keynote is going on, we're going to have DR, maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that up. But let's check out this videotape of, this is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back, we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson's space at MWC21. And for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is the unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston or DR as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience, we're going to talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go we plan this amazing experience that we call, Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live, is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud hosted by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests, focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested a hundred million dollars in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market, this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement coupling dual network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing, is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM forum, open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show for. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you, the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. (upbeat music) >> Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks. Just roll on that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star and I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months is that we need to in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, it's so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. >> And I love the fact that she's so, takes a tiger by the tail, because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here and I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon web services, she was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player. And she was exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? >> And of course, it's always the way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time people thinking what's going, we don't like change, why are we being shaken up. But actually afterwards, in retrospect, they think, oh, okay, I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a Hybrid event. A lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites, but in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show? Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're the main floor out here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one, I was watching your presentations and inspire site chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, I know for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing and in 10 years it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great, everyone's excited, there's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event. So since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry cause of COVID and people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. >> Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years, we know that, but what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving and many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because what's all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips, are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and feeds. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I'm like, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app, driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, if you order it you pick it up. So that's kind of can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. so a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry that is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is that anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. >> For sure. >> And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that's not, that you don't see. And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this. You saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. >> No. Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see as soon as she worked out. That is what she intends to do. >> I love her mojo, she's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Yep. >> I mean, even when apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a similar moment, then the iPhone and just the rest is history. That kind of disruption's coming. You're going to see that here. >> Yeah. Oh, it's exciting though isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof but actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about why, as you're in MWS and Google Cloud? Why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot, hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity and it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. >> Okay. >> It's almost like global warming now. The icebergs are melting and it's going to just change and because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone, it's a commercial app opportunity cause it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out, can't upload their pictures on Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them in the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's every, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning, and it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that, DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different, we want something new. You didn't know it's an open run or something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here constantly. I've mentioned open run. What is it all about John? Because why all the bars, if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about it? >> That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. OpenRent is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation has been the driver for most of the open source software. So they're trying to bring software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What if we look at, so on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Philippe Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud and within telco. So you just mentioned that. Open mind, it's all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easy, more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? >> I think that's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in sense that could be explored by hackers, but it can be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said, "Cloud is not secure, open source is not secure." And as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security and threats. But actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech. And they were saying, "Actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment. We are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being battered away, but the number is probably the same as it always was. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look at it, there's money involved, they're organized, there's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomwares at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government, it's our individual freedom. So security its huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's again about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration that the industries aren't going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I just say in security, don't download that PDF if you don't know who came from. The fishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live, we're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? >> Yeah. >> To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the actions. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDr, but you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time, let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up into the right. Totally amazing. But where's telco? There I add our stocks to this awesome chart. Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, America Movil and Zain group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T and to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth, the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street, to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things, but because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far you haven't had to. Every telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS, is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting, to WeChat, WhatsApp and the other OTT apps, but it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or term of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, "How do we make the customer love this?" Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies, don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscriber's disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services, who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high evaluations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You. Hello. What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAAMs they throw around, you'll be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the CapEx, to build out the network, I say to myself, "Hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get." For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focused started in rideshare, but then leverage its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with a valuable services that helped grow your ARPU, that would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Totogi that is going to help carriers build world class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users, it's not the average order value, it's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user, that's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences like Apple credit cards, no information required, application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings because they do simple things like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. What do we do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, why you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day. You have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to your crappy over customized on premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it. The public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focus to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive CapEx investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be soft bank? I'm investing in Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage. Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those Telco valuations will go from down here to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts, and I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click, everyone says, "No way, telcos can't do it." Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with 100 million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing, the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because the Totogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focus guys like the other telcos, instead you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you, you need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of NPS of the thirties, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible. I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier, Chloe Richardson filling it for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her and while with major action, major pump me up, punch in the face, wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here. She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight, who will win. >> Who will win but also who will build the next big thing? >> Someone needs to die in the media conversation, it's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is, telco's already acknowledged that they need to change in the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple, they've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm, you've got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source and I'm telling you, cloud is just going to drive that bus right down clouds street and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peeping on the board as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me. What does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets and growing markets things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. >> Okay. >> So the telco has been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, you know, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market, and it's about building, not just operating and you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together, builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. >> Okay. >> Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer and the parallels? >> Yeah. I mean, the mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, re platform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company was a super hot in the United States. A lot of roll ups going on with Private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or re platform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad. People process technology, and we think process and technology really take the forefront here but like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? >> Yeah. I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telcos now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at the, during the COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses and everyone was, survive because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well but for the most part we survived and they really saved everybody, my goodness. So they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education, people care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why The Edge has checked trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree. You can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays a hundred thousand dollars a year, American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs than people to fill them qualify. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in some of the things there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skill shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have isn't it? Cause it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telco is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think it will actually bring people in? >> I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university, they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me it's the relationships, the mentorship. You starting to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear course where nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate or degree and accreditation no problem, but communities are out there. So that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't there? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at telco to again, drive forward, just like DR is saying it's all about the next big thing. >> Danielle, I was also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and a pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to a school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now, the jobs that are available, weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now is, from a job standpoint is, people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that John, because we can have more than five years experience in this space, we know that but in telco there is a problem and maybe it's, again it's a flipped problem where, telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening one, but two, I think, you know, you've got to be like a chip engineer, you can't learn that online, but if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely parts, you can specialize, space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on, obviously Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And, you know, Danielle Royston always says, who's going to happen first, Mars, colony, or telco adopting public cloud? Some people think Mars will happen first but. >> What do you think John? >> I think telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. >> Yeah. >> And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. >> Of course. >> So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret and it's fun to watch, everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah, know, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip and I wonder if with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development its efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times John. >> Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So it's, we're the hybrid cube, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. >> Yeah. >> That is critical dynamic, and you seeing it. Like virtual reality for instance, now you seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. >> Exactly. >> You got, like Roblox went public recently. >> Yeah. >> Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, you know, gamers. So all good stuff, Chloe, great to be with you here in theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team, we're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City and this is theCUBE, from Cloud City back to you, Adam in the studio.

(bright music) >> Narrator: From theCube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCube conversation. >> Welcome to theCube's coverage of PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host from the cube Natalie Ehrlich. Now we're joined by Sean Scott the Chief Product Officer of PagerDuty. Thank you very much for joining the program. >> Glad to be here, thank you for having me. >> Terrific, while you've been with PagerDuty for about six months, how is it going? >> Well and great. So I joined PagerDuty because I saw the entire world was shifting to digital first and PagerDuty is key infrastructure for many of the world's largest companies. In fact, over 60% of the Fortune 100 are customers. And more importantly, I see a much broader future our platform will play in digital operations for these companies going forward. I'm excited to be a part of that. >> Terrific. Well, you have really robust experience over 20 years in the value leading product, marketing and engineering teams. What prompted the move? I mean, you explained it but just really curious why you made that. >> So, yeah, I had a long career at Amazon where I was responsible for much of the shopping experience. I ran the homepage, product page, checkout a lot of the underlying tools and tech that supports that worldwide across all devices. And then more recently I built and launched the scout autonomous delivery robot from the ground up. So, but after 15 years and I was starting to look for a change and I started talking to Jen, our CEO and the more we talked the more excited I became about the platform and what it can be going forward for our customers. You know, the fact that we are already integrated with so many customers around the world and playing such a critical role as part of their infrastructure. And yet I think we're just getting started and we can help out companies and so many more use cases across our organizations and really eliminate a lot of time in a waste from their processes. >> Well, this is your first PagerDuty summit. Do tell us, what do you think is the vision for this year's program? >> Yeah, so we'll be launching a lot of new products that I'm excited to talk about and I'll be sharing some of the vision about what I've been thinking about and what I've been working on for my time that I've been here so far. And that starts with our vision, which is really how do we enable more flexibility across our platform. I mentioned our customers are using us for a lot of unique ways beyond DevOps. Things like IOT device management. You know, I heard one yesterday of, you know really doing building management. So the building was having a water leak and instantly it was hooked up to PagerDuty already beforehand. And so within 30 seconds they had alerted and within a minute and a half, they had the water shut off of the building. So way beyond the DevOps use case to even organ transplant delivery, if you can believe that our platform is being used on. So it's pretty exciting to think about all our product already does, but we want to continue to accelerate that. And so building much more flexibility into our product to really capture more of that value and more of the work that's happening across the organization, connect to everyone. >> That's really incredible. We'd love it if you could share perhaps some insight what you're planning to announce this week. >> Yeah, sure. So we have a few things that we're announcing. One is we announced last year by the biggest news last September was our acquisition of Rundeck. And so as part of that, we're announcing our first integration of PagerDuty in Rundeck in the form of Runbook action. So this is a, you can think of it as kind of quick kind of micro automations or short automations to give responders much more insights into what's actually happening with an incident. So maybe it's say running a MIM command or a script on a server, we can actually run that directly from the PagerDuty interface. So you don't have to SSH into a box, for example what does all just takes time and effort. And so when you're trying to remediate that issue of maybe a site being down or a service being down, it all happens right there. And even your frontline responders can now do those remediations as well and those automation actions, to again before they need to escalate to the next tier or bring in other devs to help troubleshoot. So that's pretty exciting. We're also announcing service graft which is a new way to model your services and show your services and really understand your dependency graph. So if you think about one of the biggest challenges often when you're trying to remediate issues is understanding, is that me, or is that one of my dependent services? And so now we actually have new visualizations to really show that our responders exactly what's happening and you can quickly see, is it you or is it maybe some dependency maybe multiple teams are having the same issue that because one of the core services that everybody leverages is down and you can quickly see that. So that's pretty exciting as well. We have change correlation and internet outliers. So change correlation, you know, most incidents occur because of changes that were made by us people. And so being able to spotlight things like here's a change that was recently made, or here's a change based on our machine learning algorithms that we detected that could be a culprit here. So providing a much richer insights to again reduce that meantime to resolution. So this whole team, our intelligence team that's our whole purpose in life is really just to reduce that meantime to resolution for our customers. Imagine waking up, you know, tomorrow and your meantime to resolution just magically goes down because of our software updates and that's how that team focuses on. And then the last one in this group is internet outliers which is all about telling you have an incident, is this rare or is this a frequent incident? And just giving you a little more insights into what you're seeing which will again help the responders. We have some other announcements coming up, but I'll save that for something. >> Terrific. Well, you know, I'd love it if you could share some insight on the competitive landscape and how PagerDuty is, how you see its product offering different from the others. >> Sure. So we go head to head with a lot of our competitors and we have the, you know, being in the fortunate position that we do have a few competitors coming after us and some big names as well. But you know, when we go head to head with these companies we generally win and we see we're constantly getting put in bake-offs with these other competitors. We have one customer, I was talking to a few weeks back and they paired us against the incumbent and out of the box, we saw 50% improvement in meantime to acknowledge. So this is how quickly we can pull the responder. And then in addition, I thought was more interesting as we saw a 50% improvement in the meantime to resolution over the incumbent. And so while we do have competitors coming at us I'm really happy with the way our product performs and our customers are too. So after these bake-offs, it's usually pretty clear who's staying and who's going. >> Yeah. So when you were helping develop this program this week what were some of the key areas that you really wanted to highlight? >> So one of the big areas is really talking about our vision and what is our go forward plan, because I think while we're really known for incident response, I think some of the exciting things you'll hear about at the summit are kind of where we're going in terms of four pillars to our vision. One is flexibility. Flexible workflows and enabling flexibility. So if you think about all the things that our product is doing beyond DevOps. So for example, you know we had a customer telling us about they had put PagerDuty in front of everything they're doing. So their whole building is IP enabled. And so they had a contractor drill through a watermain and it was instantly able to shut off the water. So they, you know, within 30 seconds they had the PagerDuty had notified the right responders of building maintenance and within a minute and a half the water was shut off and they made the comment that PagerDuty just paid for itself with this one incident. We see IOT device management. We see even organ transplant delivery using our product. And so we will continue to fuel that with our flexibility. Second pillar is connect to everyone. We see that we have a lot of people connected, but we just launched fairly recently a customer service offering. So now we can get customer service not only informed what's going on, but also connecting to the dev teams and the engineering teams and the service owners to really give them more insights into the blast radius and what they may be seeing. The next one is connect everything. So we have over 550 out of the box integrations. So that makes it seamless to connect to apps like Datadog. But then also we work where our customers work. So we can actually do work in Slack or MS Teams and take action right in those tools. And the last one is automated way to toil. So we want to automate what can be automated. And this goes back to the one deck acquisition that I mentioned and getting that more deeply integrated with the stack and with processes across an organization. And we're seeing that when our customer has really taken advantage of that platform they can really automate a way to toil and automate a lot of redundant work and work that is just busy work and that keeps people from doing their day jobs, so to speak. >> Yeah, well obviously we had a really unusual last year with the pandemic. How do you think that it changed a business for you? Did it inspire you to move in a new direction? What do you see next in the near future? >> For sure. So I saw that, I mean, it's probably the reason why I came to PagerDuty because I saw the transformation industries are making a digital first, right. And so there was a lot of teams a lot of companies struggled, but then a lot of companies also flourished you'd take, you know companies like Instacart and DoorDash and Zoom, you know had a terrific year. And so, you know, PagerDuty even with the pandemic and companies that were struggling, we still grew pretty rapidly last year. And that's, I think it's pretty exciting. And it really speaks to that migration to digital where digital is now becoming table stakes and just part of what you have to do as a business as opposed to it used to be a goal that we need to do more on digital platform. And now it's like, you have to, you know focus on a digital platform if you want to simply stay relevant today. And so I think that's really important for PagerDuty because that's where we really help companies thrive. >> Sean, that's really interesting. To close out this interview, do you have any last thoughts? >> No, I think that covers it. I think we're really excited to grow with our customers and we're seeing great traction in the market and look forward to a bright future in our platform. Really helping customers solve new problems that they might've not even considered us for yet. >> Terrific, well, thank you very much for your insights. Sean Scott the Chief Product Officer at PagerDuty. And that wraps up our coverage today for the PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host, Natalie Erlich for theCube. Thank you for watching. (bright music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>> Welcome to this IBM Watson Health client conversation. And we're probing the dynamics of the relationship between IBM and it's clients. We're going to look back at some of the challenges of 2020 and look forward to, you know, present year's priorities. We'll also touch on the future state of healthcare. My name is Dave Vellante. I'll be your host and I'm from theCUBE. And with me are Doctor Alex Towbin, who's Associate Chief Clinical Operations and Informatics at Cincinnati ChilDoctoren's Hospital and John Chrisman of course from IBM Watson health. Welcome gentlemen, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Yeah I know from talking to many clients around the world, of course virtually this past year, 11 months or so that relationships with technology partners they've been critical over during the pandemic to really help folks get through that. Not that we're through it yet but, we're still through the year now, there's I'm talking professionally and personally and Doctor Towbin, I wonder if you could please talk about 2020 and what role the IBM partnership played in helping Cincinnati children's, you know press on in the face of incredible challenges? >> Yeah, I think our story of 2020 really starts before the pandemic and we were fortunate to be able to plan a disaster and do disaster drill scenarios. And so, as we were going through those disaster drill scenarios, we were trying to build a solution that would enable us to be able to work if all of our systems were down and we worked with IBM Watson Health to design that solution to implement it, it involves using other solutions from our primary one. And we performed that disaster drill in the late January, early February timeframe of 2020. And while that drill had nothing to do with COVID it got us thinking about how to deal with a disaster, how to prepare for a disaster. And so we've just completed that and COVID was coming on the horizon. I'm starting to hear about it coming into the U.S for the first time. And we took that very seriously on our department. And so, because we had prepared for this this disaster drill had gone through the entire exercise and we built out different scenarios for what could happen with COVID what would be our worst case scenarios and how we would deal with them. And so we were able to then bring that to quickly down to two options on how our department and our hospital would handle COVID and deal with that within the radiology department and like many other sites that becomes options of working from home or working in a isolated way and an and an office scenario like where I'm sitting now and we planned out both scenarios and eventually made the decision. Our decision at that point was to work in our offices. We're fortunate to have private offices where we can retreat to and something like that. And so then our relationship with IBM was helpful and that we needed to secure more pieces of hardware. And so even though IBM is our PACS vendor and our enterprise imaging vendor, they also help us to secure the high resolution monitors that are needed. And we needed a large influx of those during the pandemic and IBM was able to help us to get those. >> Wow! So yeah you were able to sort of test your organization resilience before the pandemic. I mean, John, that's quite an accomplishment for last year. I'm sure there are many others. I wonder if one of you could pick it up from here and bring your perspectives into it and, you know maybe ask any questions that you would like to ask them. >> Yeah, sure, Doctor Towbin, that's great that we were able to help you with the hardware and procure things. So I'm just curious before the pandemic how many of the radiologists ever got to read from home, was that a luxury back then? And then post pandemic, are you guys going to shift to how many are on-site versus remote? >> Yeah, so we have a couple of scenarios. We've had talk about it both from our PACS perspective as well as from our VNA enterprise imaging perspective from PACS perspective we always designed our solution to be able to work from a home machine. Our machines, people would access that through a hospital-based VPN. So they would log in directly to VPN and then access the PACS that way. And that worked well. And many of our radiologists do that particularly when they're on call works best for our neuroradiologist who are on call a little bit more frequently. And so they do read from home in that scenario. With enterprise imaging and are used to the enterprise viewer and iConnect access. We always wanted that solution to work over the internet. And so it's set up securely through the internet but not through the VPN. And we have radiologists use that as a way to view studies from home, even not from home, so it can be over one of their mobile devices, such as an iPad and could be at least reviewing studies then. We, for the most part for our radiologist in the hospital that's why we made the decision to stay in the hospital. At COVID time, we have such a strong teaching mission in our department in such a commitment to the education of our trainees. We think that hospital being in the hospital is our best way to do that, it's so hard. We find to do it over something like zoom or other sharing screen-sharing technology. So we've stayed in and I think we'll continue to stay in. There will be some of those needs from a call perspective for example, reading from home, and that will continue. >> And then what's your success been with this with the technology and the efficiency of reading from home? Do you feel like you're just as efficient when you're at home versus onsite? >> The technology is okay. The, our challenges when we're reading from the PACS which is the preferred way to do it rather than the enterprise archive, the challenge is we have to use the PACS So we have to be connected through VPN which limits our bandwidth and that makes it a little bit slower to read. And also the dictation software is a little bit slower when we're doing it. So moving study to study that rapid turnover doesn't happen but we have other ways to make, to accelerate the workflow. We cashed studies through the worklist. So they're on the machine, they load a little bit more rapidly and that works pretty well. So not quite as fast, but not terrible. >> We appreciate your partnership. I know it's been going on 10 years. I think you guys have a policy that you have to look at the market again every 10 years. So what do you think of how the market's changed and how we've evolved with the VNA and with the zero footprint viewers? A lot of that wasn't available when you initially signed up with Amicas years ago, so. >> Yeah, we signed up so we've been on this platform and then, you know now the IBM family starting in 2010, so it's now now 11 years that we're, we've been on as this version of the PACS and about eight, seven or eight years from the iConnect platform. And through that, we've seen quite an evolution. We were one of the first Amicas clients to be on version six and one of the largest enterprises. And that went from, we had trouble at the launch of that product. We've worked very closely with Amicas then to merge. And now IBM from the development side, as well as the support side to have really what we think is a great product that works very well for us and drives our entire workflow all the operations of our department. And so we've really relished that relationship with now IBM. And it's been a very good one, and it's allowed us to do the things like having disaster drill planning that we talked about earlier as far as where I see the market I think PACS in particular is on the verge of the 3.0 version as a marketplace. So PACSS 1 one was about building the packs, I think, and and having electronic imaging digital imaging, PACS 2.0 is more of web-based technology, getting it out of those private networks within a radiology department. And so giving a little bit more to the masses and 3.0 is going to be more about incorporating machine learning. I really see that as the way the market's going to go and to where I think we're at the infancy of that part of the market now about how do you bring books in for machine learning algorithms to help to drive workflow or to drive some image interpretation or analysis, as far as enterprise imaging, we're on the cusp of a lot there as well. So we've been really driving deep with enterprise imaging leading nationally enterprise imaging and I have a role in the MSAM Enterprise Imaging Community. And through all of that work we've been trying to tackle works well from enterprise imaging point of view the challenges are outside of radiology, outside of cardiology and the places where we're trying to deal with medical photos, the photographs taken with a smart device or a digital camera of another type, and trying to have workflow that makes sense for providers not in those specialty to that don't have tools like a DICOM modality workloads store these giant million-dollar MRI scanners that do all the work for you, but dealing with off the shelf, consumer electronics. So making sure the workflow works for them, trying to tie reports in trying to standardize the language around it, so how do we tag photos correctly so that we can identify relevancy all of those things we're working through and are not yet standard within our, within the industry. And so we're doing a lot there and trying and seeing the products in the marketplace continuing to evolve around that on the viewer side, there's really been a big emergence as you mentioned about the zero footprint viewers or the enterprise viewer, allowing easy access easy viewing of images throughout the enterprise of all types of imaging through obtained in the enterprise and will eventually incorporate video pathology. The market is also trying to figure out if there can be one type of viewer that does them all that and so that type of universal viewer, a viewer that cardiologists can use the same as a radiologist the same as a dermatologist, same as a pathologist we're all I think a long way away from that. But that's the Marcus trying to figure those two things out. >> Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with your assessment. You talked about the non DICOM areas, and I know you've you've partnered with us, with ImageMover and you've got some mobile device capture taking place. And you're looking to expand that more to the enterprise. Are you also starting to use the XDS registry? That's part of the iConnect enterprise archive, or as well as wrapping things in DICOM, or are you going to stick with just wrapping things in DICOM? >> Yeah, so far we've been very bunched pro DICOM and using that throughout the enterprise. And we've always thought, or maybe we've evolved to think that there is going to be a role for XDS are I think our early concerns with XDS are the lack of other institutions using it. And so, even though it's designed for portability if no one else reads it, it's not portable. If no one else is using that. But as we move more and more into other specialties things like dermatology, ophthalmology, some of the labeling that's needed in those images and the uses, the secondary uses of those images for education, for publication, for dermatology workflow or ophthalmology workflow, needs to get back to that native file and the DICOM wrap may not make sense for them. And so we've been actively talking about switching towards XDS for some of the non DICOM, such as dermatology. We've not yet done that though. >> Given the era children's hospital has the impact on your patient load, then similar to what regular adult hospitals are, or have you guys had a pretty steady number of studies over the last year? >> In relay through the pandemic, we've had, it has been decreased, but children fortunately have not been as severely affected as adults. There is definitely disease in children and we see a fair amount of that. There are some unique things that happen in kids but that fortunately rare. So there's this severe inflammatory response that kids can get and can cause them to get very sick but it is quite rare. Our volumes are, I think I'm not I think our volumes are stable and our advanced imaging things like CT, MRI, nuclear medicine, they're really most decreased in radiography. And we see some weird patterns, inpatient volumes are relatively stable. So our single view chest x-rays, for example, have been stable. ER, visits are way down because people are either wearing masks, isolating or not wanting to come to the ER. So they're not getting sick with things like the flu or or even common colds or pneumonias. And so they're not coming into the ER as much. So our two view x-rays have dropped by like 30%. And so we were looking at this just yesterday. If you follow the graphs for the two we saw a dip of both around March, but essentially the one view chest were a straight line and the two view chest were a straight line and in March dropped 30 to 50% and then stayed at that lower level. Other x-rays are on the, stay at that low level side. >> Thanks, I know in 2021 we've got a big upgrade coming with you guys soon and you're going to stay in our standalone mode. I understand what the PACSS and not integrate deeply to the VNA. And so you'll have a couple more layers of storage there but can you talk about your excitement about going to 8.1 and what you're looking forward to based on your testimony. >> Yeah we're actually in, we're upgrading as we're talking which is interesting, but it's a good time for talking. I'm not doing that part of the work. And so our testing has worked well. I think we're, we are excited. We, you know, we've been on the product as I mentioned for over 10 years now. And for many of those years we were among the first, at each version. Now we're way behind. And we want to get back up to the latest and greatest and we want to stay cutting edge. There've been a lot of reasons why we haven't moved up to that level, but we do. We're very careful in our testing and we needed a version that would work for us. And there were things about previous versions that just didn't and as you mentioned, we're staying in that standalone mode. We very much want to be on the integrated mode in our future because enterprise imaging is so important and understanding how the comparisons fit in with the comparison in dermatology or chest wall deformity clinic, or other areas how those fit into the radiology story is important and it helped me as a radiologist be a better radiologist to see all those other pictures. So I want them there but we have to have the workflow, right. And so that's the part that we're still working towards and making sure that that fits so we will get there. It'll probably be in the next year or two to get to that immigrating mode. >> As you, look at the number of vendors you have I think you guys prefer to have less vendor partners than than more I know in the cardiology area you guys do some cardiology work. What has been the history or any, any look to the future of that related to enterprise imaging? Do you look to incorporate more of that into a singular solution? >> Cardiology is entirely part of our enterprise imaging solution. We all the cardiology amendments go to our vendor neutral archive on the iConnect platform. All of them are viewed across the enterprise using our enterprise viewer. They have their unique specialty viewer which is, you know, fine. I'm a believer that specialty, different specialties, deserve to have their specialty viewers to do theirs specialty reads. And at this point I don't think the universal viewer works or makes sense until we have that. And so all the cardiology images are there. They're all of our historical cardiology images are migrated and part of our enterprise solution. So they're part of the entire reference the challenge is they're just not all in PACSS. And so that's where, you know, an example, great example, why we need to get to this to the integrated mode to be able to see those. And the reason we didn't do that is the cardiology archive is so large to add a storage to the PACS archive. Didn't make sense if we knew we were going to be in an integrated mode eventually, and we didn't want to double our PACS storage and then get rid of it a couple of years later. >> So once you're on a new version of merge PACS and you're beyond this, what are your other goals in 2021? Are you looking to bring AI in? Are you using anybody else's AI currently? >> Yeah, we do have AI clinical it's phone age, so it's not not a ton of things but we've been using it clinically, fully integrated, it launches. When I open a study, when I opened a bone age study impacts it launches we have a bone age calculator as well that we've been using for almost two decades now. And so that we have to use that still but launching that automatically includes the patient's sex and birth date, which are keys for determining bone age, and all that information is there automatically. But at the same time, the images are sent to the machine learning algorithm. And in the background the machine determines a bone age that in the background it sends it straight to our dictation system and it's there when we opened the study. And so if I agree with that I signed the report and we're done. If I disagree, I copy it from my calculator and put it in until it takes just a couple of clicks. We are working on expanding. We've done a lot of research in artificial intelligence and the department. And so we've been things are sort of in the middle of translation of moving it from the research pure research realm to the clinical realm, something we're actively working on trying to get them in. Others are a little bit more difficult. >> That's the question on that John, Doctor, when you talk about injecting, you know machine intelligence into the equation. >> Yeah. >> What, how do you sort of value that? Does that give you automation? Does it improve your quality? Does it speed the outcome and maybe it's all of those but how do you sort of evaluate the impact to your organisation? >> I there's a lot of ways you can do it. And you touched on one of my favorite one of my favorite talking points, in a lot of what we've been doing and early machine learning is around image interpretation helping me as a radiologist to see a finding. Unfortunately, most of the things are fairly simple tasks that it's asking us to do. Like, is there a broken bone? Yes or no, I'm not trying to sound self-congratulatory or anything, but I'm really good at finding broken bones. I get, I've been doing it for a long time and, and radio, you know so machines doing that, they're going to perform as well as I can perform, you know, and that's the goal. Maybe they'll perform a little bit better maybe a little bit worse but we're talking tiny increments there they're really to me, not much value of that it's not something I would want. I don't value that at a time where I think machine learning can have real value around more on some of the things that you mentioned. So can it make me more efficient? Can it do the things that are so annoying that and they'd take, they're so tedious that they make me unhappy. A lot of little measurements for example are like that an example. So in a patient with cancer, we measure a little tumors everywhere and that's really important for their care, but it's tedious and so if a machine could do that in an automated way and I checked it that, you know, patient when because he or she can get that good quality care and I have a, you know, a workflow efficiency game. So that one's important. Another one that would be important is if the machine can see things I can't see. So I'm really good at finding fractures. I'm not really good at understanding what all the pixels mean and, you know in that same patient with cancer, oh what do all the pixels mean in that tumor? I know it's a tumor. I can see the tumor, I can say it's a tumor but sometimes those pixels have a lot of information in them and may give us prognosis, you know, say that this patient may, maybe this patient will do well with this specific type of chemotherapy or a specific or has a better prognosis with one with one drug compared to another. Those are things that we can't usually pick out. You know, it's beyond the level of that are I can perceive that one is really the cutting edge of machine learning. We're not there yet and then the other thing are things that, you know just the behind the scenes stuff that I don't necessarily need to be doing, or, you know so it's the non interpretive artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Right. >> And that's what I've been also trying to push. So an example of when the algorithms that we've been developing here we check airways. And this is a little bit historical in our department, but we want to make sure we're not missing a severe airway infection. That can be deadly, it's incredibly rare. Vaccines have made it go away completely but we still check airways. And so what happens is the technologist takes the x-ray. They come in to ask us if it's okay, we are interrupted from what we're doing. We open up the study, say yes or no. Okay, not okay, if it's not okay they go back, take another study. Then come back to us again and say, is it okay or not? And we repeat this a couple of times it takes them time that they don't need to spend and takes us time. And so we have, we've built an algorithm where the machine can check that and their machine is as good or a little bit worse than us, but give can give that feedback. >> Dave: Got it. >> The challenge is getting that feedback to the technologist quickly. And so that's, that's I think part for us to work on stuff. >> Thank you for that. So, John, we've probably got three or four minutes left. I'll let you bring it home and appreciate that Doctor Towbin >> I think one of the biggest impacts probably I knew this last year with the pandemic, Doctor Towbin is this, I know you're a big foodie. So having been to some good restaurants and dinners with the hot nurse in a house how's the pandemic affected you personally. And some of the things you like to do outside of work. >> Everything is shut down. And everything has changed. I have not left the house since March besides come to work and my family hasn't either. And so we're hardcore quarantining and staying you know, staying out and keeping it home. So we've not gone out to dinner or done much else. >> So its DoorDash and Uber Eats or just learned to cook at home. >> It's all cooking at home. We're fortunate, my wife loves to cook. My kids love to cook. I enjoy cooking, but I don't have the time as often. So we've done a lot of different are on our own experimenting. Maybe when the silver lining one of the things I've really relished about all this is all this time I get to spend with my family. And that closeness that we've been able to achieve because of being confined in our house the whole time. And so I've played get to play video games with my kids every night. We'd been on a big Fortnite Keck lately since it's been down making. So we've been playing that every night since we've watched movies a lot. And so as a family, we've, I it's something I'll look back fondly even though it's been a very difficult time but it's been an enjoyable time. >> I agree, I've enjoyed more family time this year as well, but final question is in 2021, beyond the PACS upgrade what are the top other two projects that you want to accomplish with us this year? And how can we help you? >> I think our big one is are the big projects are unexpanded enterprise imaging. And so we want to continue rolling out to other areas that will include eventually incorporating scopes, all the images from the operating room. We need to be able to get into pathology. I think the pathology is really going to be a long game. Unfortunately, I've been saying that already for 10 years and it's still probably another 10 years ago but we need to go. We can start with the gross pathology images all the pictures that we take for tumor boards and get those in before we start talking about whole slide scanning and getting in more of the more of the photographs in the institution. So we have a route ambulatory but we need inpatient and ER. >> All right one last question. What can IBM do to be a better partner for you guys? >> I think it's keep listening keep listening and keep innovating. And don't be afraid to be that innovative partner sort of thinking as the small company that startup, rather than the giant bohemoth that can sometimes happen with large companies, it's harder. It is fear to turn quickly, but being a nimble company and making quick decisions, quick innovations. >> Great, quick question. How would you grade IBM, your a tough grader? >> It depends on what I am a tough grader but it depends on what, you know as the overall corporate partnership? >> Yeah the relationship. >> I'd say it's A minus. >> Its pretty good. >> I think, I mean, I, we get a lot of love from IBM. I'm talking specifically in the imaging space. I not, maybe not, I don't know as much on the hardware side but we, yeah, we have a really good relationship. We feel like we're listened to and we're valued. >> All right, well guys, thanks so much. >> So even if it's not an A plus- >> Go ahead. >> I think there's some more to, you know, from the to keep innovating side there's little things that we just let you know we've been asking for that we don't always get but understand the company has to make business decisions not decisions on what's best for me. >> Of course got to hold that carrot out too. Well thanks guys, really appreciate your time. Great conversation. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right and thank you for spending some time with us. You're watching client conversations with IBM Watson Health.