(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents Ignite '22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas guys and girls. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. This is day one of the cube's two day coverage of Palo Alto Networks Ignite at the MGM Grand. Dave, we've been having some great conversations today, we have a great two day lineup execs from Palo Alto, it's partner network, customers, et cetera. Going to be talking about infrastructure as code. We talk about that a lot, how Palo is partnering with its partner ecosystem to really help customers deliver security across the organization. >> We do a predictions post every year. Hopefully you can hear me. So we do this predictions post every year. I've done it for a number of years, and I want to say it was either 2018 or 2019, we predicted that HashiCorp was one of these companies to watch. And then last August, on August 9th, we had supercloud event in Palo Alto. We had David McJannet in, who is the CEO of HashiCorp. And we really see Hashi as a key player in terms of affecting multicloud consistency. Sometimes we call it supercloud, you building on top of the hyperscale cloud. So super excited to have HashiCorp on. >> Really an important conversation. We've got an alumni back with us. Asvin Ramesh is here the senior director of Alliances at HashiCorp. Welcome back. >> Yeah, thank you. Good to be back. >> Great to have you. Talk to us a little bit about what's going on at HashiCorp, your relationship with Palo Alto Networks, and what's in it for customers. >> Yeah, no, no, great question. So, Palo Alto has been a fantastic partner of ours for many years now. We started way back in 2018, 2019 focusing on the basics, putting integrations in place that customers can be using together. And so it's been a great journey. Both are very synergistic. Palo Alto is focused on multicloud, so are we, we focus on cloud infrastructure automation, and ensuring that customers are able to bring in agility, reliability, security, and be able to deliver to their business. And then Palo Alto brings in great security components to that multicloud story. So it's a great story altogether. >> Some of the challenges that organizations have been facing. Palo Alto just released a survey, I think this morning if I can find it here what's next in cyber organizations facing massive headwinds ransomware becoming a household word, business email compromise being a challenge. But also in the last couple of years the massive shift to multi-club or organizations are living an operating need to do so securely. It's no longer nice to have anymore. It's absolutely table stakes for survival, and being able to thrive and grow for any business. >> Yeah, no, I think it's almost a sort of rethinking of how you would build your infrastructure up. So the more times you do it right the better you are built to scale. That's been one of the bedrocks of how we've been working with Palo Alto, which is rethinking how should IT be building their infrastructure in a multicloud world. And I think the market timing is right for both of us in terms of the progress that we've been able to make. >> So, I mean Terraform has really become sort of a key ingredient to the cloud operating model, especially across clouds. Kind of describe how partners, and customers are are implementing that cross-cloud capability. What's that journey look like? What's the level of maturity today? >> Yeah, great question, Dave. So we sort of see customers in three buckets. The first bucket is when customers are in the initial phases of their cloud journey. So they have disparate teams in their business units try out clouds themselves. Typically there is some event that occurs either some sort of a security scare or a a cloud cost event that triggers a rethinking of how they should be thinking about this in a scalable way. So that leads to where the cloud operating model which is a framework that HashiCorp has. And we use that successfully with customers to talk them through how they should be thinking about their process, about how they should be standardizing how people operate, and then the products they should be including, but then you come to that stage, and you start to think about a centralized platform team that is putting in golden workflows, that is putting in as a service mindset for their business units thinking through policies at a corporate level. And then that is a second stage. And then, but this is also in some customers more around public clouds. But then the third stage that we see is when they start embracing their private cloud or the on-prem data center, and have the same principles address across both public clouds, and the on-prem data center, and then Terraform scale for any infrastructure. So, once you start to put these practices in place not just from a technology standpoint, but from a process, and product standpoint, you're easily able to scale with that central platform organization. >> So, it's all about that consistency across your estate irrespective of whether it's on-prem in AWS, Azure, Google, the Edge, maybe. I mean, that's starting, right? >> Asvin: Yes. >> And so when you talk about the... Break it down a little bit process and product, where do you and Palo Alto sort of partner and add value? What's that experience like? >> Yeah, so, I think as I mentioned earlier the bedrock is having ways in which customers are able to use our products together, right? And then being able to evangelize the usage of that product. So one example I'll give you is with Prisma Cloud, and Terraform Cloud to your point about Terraform earlier. So customers can be using Prisma Cloud with Terraform Cloud in a way that you can get security context telemetry during an infrastructure run, and then use policies that you have in Prisma Cloud to be able to get or run or to implement or run or make sure essentially it is adhering to your security policy or any other audits that you want to create or any other cost that you want to be able to control. >> Where are your customer conversations these days? We know that security is a board level conversation. Interestingly, in that same survey that Palo Alto released this morning that I mentioned they found that there's a big lack of alignment between the board and the C-suite staff, the executive suite in terms of security. Where are your conversations, and how are you maybe facilitating that alignment that needs to be there? Because security it's not a nice to have. >> Yeah, I think in our experience, the alignment is there. I think especially with the macro environment it's more about where where do you allocate those resources. I think those are conversations that we're just starting to see happen, but I think it's the natural progression of how the environment is moving, and maybe another quarter or two, I think we'll see greater alignment there. >> So, and I saw some data that said I guess it was a study you guys did 90% of customer say multicloud is working for them. That surprised me 'cause you hear all this negativity around multicloud, I've been kind of negative about multicloud to be honest. Like that's a symptom of MNA, and a or multi-vendor. But how do you interpret that? When they say multicloud is working? How so? >> Yeah, I think the maturity of customers are varied as I mentioned through the stages, right? So, there are customers who even in the initial phases of their journey where they have different business units using different clouds, and from a C standpoint that might still look like multicloud, right? Though the way we think about it is you should be really in stage two, and stage three to real leverage the real power of multicloud. But I think it's that initial hump that you need to go through, and being able to get oriented towards it, have the right set of skillsets, the thought process, the product, the process in place. And once you have that then you'll start reaping the benefits over a period of time, especially when some other environments events happen, and you're able to easily adjust to that because you're leveraging this multicloud environment, and you have a clear policy of where you'll use which cloud. >> So I interpreted that data as, okay, multicloud is working from the standpoint of we are multicloud, okay? So, and our business is working, but when I talk to customers, they want more to your point, they want that consistent experience. And so it's been by, to use somebody else's term, by default. Chuck Whitten I think came up with that term versus by design. And now I think they have an objective of, okay, let's make multicloud work even better. Maybe I can say that. And so what does that experience look like? That means a common experience all the way through my stack, my infrastructure stack, which is that's going to be interesting to see how that goes down 'cause you got three separate clouds, and are doing their own APIs. But certainly from a security standpoint, the PaaS layer, even as I go up the stack, how do you see that outcome, and say the next two to five years? >> Yeah, so, we go back to our customers, and they're very successful ones who've used the cloud operating model. And for us the cloud operating model for us includes four layers. So on the infrastructure layer, we have Terraform and Packer, on the security layer we have Vault and Boundary, on the networking layer we have Consul, and then on applications we have Nomad and Waypoint. But then you really look at, from a people process, and product standpoint, for people it's how do you standardize the workflows that they're able to use, right? So if you have a central platform team in place that is looking at common use cases that multiple business units are using. and then creates a golden workflow, for example, right? For these various business units to be able to use or creates what we call a system of record for cloud adoption it helps multiple business units then latch onto this work that this central platform team is doing. And they need to have a product mindset, right? So not like a project that you just start and end with. You have this continuous improvement mindset within that platform team. And they build these processes, they build these golden workflows, they build these policies in place, and then they offer that as a service to the business units to be able to use. So that increases the adoption of multicloud. And also more importantly, you can then allow that multicloud usage to be governed in the way that aligns with your overall corporate objectives. And obviously in self-interest, you'd use Terraform or Vault because you can then use it across multiple clouds. >> Well, let's say I buy into that. Okay, great. So I want that common experience 'cause so when you talk about infrastructure, take us through an example. So when I hear infrastructure, I say, okay if I'm using an S3 bucket over here an Azure blob over there, they got different APIs, they got different primitives. I want you to abstract that away. Is that what you do? >> Yeah, so I think we've seen different use cases being used across different clouds too. So I don't think it's sort of as simple as, hey, should I use this or that? It is ensuring that the common tool that you use to be able to leverage safer provisioning, right? Is Terraform. So the central team is then trained in not only just usage of Terraform open source, but their Terraform cloud, which is our managed service, and Terraform enterprise which is the self-managed, but on-prem product, it's them being qualified to be able to build these consistent workflows using whatever tool that they have or whatever skew that they have from Terraform. And then applying business logic on top of that to your point about, hey, we'd like to use AWS for these kind of workloads. We'd like to use GCP, for example, on data or use Microsoft Azure for some other type of- >> Collaboration >> Right? But the common tooling, right? Remains around the usage of Terraform, and they've trained their teams there's a standard workflow, there's standard process around it. >> Asvin, I was looking at that survey the HashiCorp state of cloud strategy survey, and it talked about skill shortages as being the number one barrier to multicloud. We talk about the cyber skills gap all the time. It's huge. It's obviously a huge issue. I saw some numbers just the other day that there's 26 million developers but there's less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. How does HashiCorp and Palo Alto Networks, how do you help customers address that skills gap so that they that they can leverage multicloud as a driver of the business? >> Yeah, another great question. So I think I'd say in two or three different ways. One is be able to provide greater documentation for our customers to be able to self use the product so that with the existing people, for example, you build out a known example, right? You're trying to achieve this goal here is how you use our products together. And so they'll be able to self-service, right? So that's one. Second is obviously both of us have great services partners, so we are always working with these services partners to get their teams trained and scaled up around these skill gaps. And I think I'd say the third which is where we see a lot of adoption is around usage of the managed services that we have. If you take Palo Alto's example in this Palo Alto will speak better to it, but they have SOC services, right? That you can consume. So, they're performing that service for you. Similarly, on our side we have a HashiCorp Cloud Platform, HCP, where you can consume Vault as a service, you can consume Consul as a service. Terraform cloud is a managed service, so you don't need as many people to be able to run that service. And we abstract all the complexity associated with that by ourselves, right? So I'd say these are the three ways that we address it. >> So Zero Trust across big buzzword. We heard this in this morning keynotes, AWS is always saying, well, we'll talk about it too, but, okay, customers are starting to talk about Zero Trust. You talk to CISOs, they're like, yes, we're adopting this mentality of unless you're trusted, we don't trust you. So, okay, cool. So you think about the cloud you've got the shared responsibility model, and then you've got the application developers are being asked to do more, secure the code. You got the CISO now has to deal with not only the shared responsibility model, but shared responsibility models across clouds, and got to bring his or her security ethos to the app dev team, and then you got to audit kind of making sure they're like the last line of defense. So my question is when you think about code security and Zero Trust in that new environment the problem with a lot of the clouds is they don't make the CISOs life any easier. So I got to believe that your objective with Palo Alto is to actually make the organization's lives easier. So, how do you deal with all that complexity in specifically in a Zero Trust multicloud environment? >> Yeah, so I'll give you a specific example. So, on code to cloud security which is one of Palo Alto's sort of key focus area is that Prisma Cloud and Terraform Cloud example that I gave, right? Where you'd be able to use what we call run tasks essentially, web hook integrations to be able to get a run or provide some telemetry back to Prisma Cloud for customers to be able to make a decision. On the Zero Trust side, we partner both on the Prisma Cloud side, and the Cortex XSOAR side around our products of Vault and and Consul. So what Vault does is it allows you to control secrets, it allows you to store secrets. So a Prisma Cloud or a Cortex customer can be using secrets from Vault familiarly for that particular transaction or workflow itself, right? Rather than, and so it's based on identity, and not on the basis of just the secret sort of lying around. Same thing with console helps you with discovery, and management of services. So, Cortex and you can automate, a lot of this work can get automated using the product that I talked about from Zero Trust. I think the key thing for Zero Trust in our view is it is a end destination, right? So it'll take certain time, depends on the enterprise, depends on where things are. It's a question of specifically focusing on value that Palo Alto and HashiCorp's products bring to solve specific use cases within that Zero Trust bucket, and solve one problem at a time rather than try to say that, hey, only Palo Alto, and only HashiCorp or whatever will solve everything in Zero Trust, right? Because that is not going to be- >> And to your point, it's never going to end, right? I mean you're talk about Cortex bringing a lot of automation. You guys bring a lot of automation now Palo Alto just bought Cider Security. Now we're getting into supply chain. I mean it going to hit it at the edge and IoT, the people don't want another IoT stove pipe. >> Lisa: No. >> Right? They want that to be part of the whole picture. So, you're never done. >> Yeah, no, but it is this continuous journey, right? And again, different companies are different parts of that journey, and then you go and rinse and repeat, you maybe acquire another company, and then they have a different maturity, so you get them on board on this. And so we see this as a multi-generational shift as Dave like to call it. And we're happy to be in the middle of it with Palo Alto Networks. >> It's definitely a multi-generational shift. Asvin, it's been great having you back on theCUBE. Thank you for giving us the update on what Hashi and Palo Alto are doing, the value in it for customers, the cloud operating model. And we should mention that HashiCorp yesterday just won a Technology Partner of the Year award. Congratulations. Yes. >> We're very, very thrilled with the recognition from Palo Alto Networks for the Technology Partner of the Year. >> Congrats. >> Thank you Keep up the great partnership. Thank you so much. We appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> For our guest, and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live in Las Vegas. You watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Escape/19. (upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBE coverage in New York City for the inaugural multicloud conference called Escape/19. We're in New York City. Escape from New York City, escape from your cloud, multicloud is the reality. Armad Dadgar, he's here, the CTO Co-founder of HashiCorp, Cube Alumni, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, great to see you. Thanks for having me back. >> So first of all, I just got to say congratulations on all your success, you guys have been doing extremely well as a business and you guys started out with a very pure mission, continues to be. You're getting some validation, market-place is spinning in your direction. You couldn't ask for kind of a better scenario. Kept doing it so congratulations. >> Thank you so much, it's been fun. >> So you guys are at the pinnacle of the confluence of automation meets you know, what developers care about. Just standing stuff up and getting stuff done. Infrastructure as code has been the ethos of cloud, dev-ops. Now we're on the horizon here at a cloud that's billing itself as the inaugural multicloud show. People have multiple clouds but they're not multiclouding so there's still a lot more work. But the best minds are here having conversations around, "What does that picture looks like? "What can we do foundationally? "What best practices and things you double-down on?" What's your take on all this? >> You know I think it's funny 'cause I think if you had this exact same conference three or four years ago everyone's take would have been like, "What multicloud?" Right? Like everyone's like, "Multicloud's not real, "it's only Amazon et cetera." And so it's funny now to actually be at a multicloud conference where's it's like nobody even questions the premise. Everyone's like, "Yeah, obviously we're going to be multicloud". Right? And I think what's happened is that you've seen maturity of the public clouds. So it's no longer just Amazon, there's multiple credible clouds. And I think the other piece of it is larger organizations are realizing multicloud's inevitable. You might say, "I'm going to go all-in on, "you know, cloud A, and then I buy a company that's cloud B, now I'm multicloud." And so I think the pragmatic reality for the kind of global 10,000 is you're going to be a mutlicloud company whether you want to or whether you don't. >> It's like multi-vendor in the old days. When I was growing up in the mini-computer networking days, you had multiple vendors. That's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. >> Just got to create some abstractions. I want to get your take on the work environment that's out there. You guys have been very successful, providing great tools, open-source and commercial for developers to stand stuff up and do their work. To operationalize multicloud, which is inevitable. >> Yep. >> How do you see that vision? I mean obviously, common workflows and workstreams but if I'm an IT guy or I'm a VP of IT or CSO or whatever, I got money. I don't want to fork my developer teams. I want my guys being productive, I'd love to have my own stacks on premises. I'd love to push APIs out to my vendors and say, "That's how we work together." So a modern thinking is going on. >> Right. >> How do you look at the operationalizing that next level? >> So, you know, what I just spoke about is sort of like when we talk about multicloud I think there's kind of four definitions of it. One is the notion of data portability. Which is, you know, perfect fit for database technology like Cockroach, right? The notion of I'm going to have data that exists in multiple clouds at the same time. Then you have the notion of workflow portability, right? Which is exactly I think what you're talking about. Which is, "Hey, if I'm a developer "building an app I don't care, "is it going to land on Amazon, "is it going to land on-premise, "is it going to go to Google? "I want one workflow. "For how do I do my, you know CICD? "How do I do my testing? "How do I do the deployment? "How do I monitor it, right? "what are the workflows in terms of delivery?" Because to your point if I'm the CIO, I don't want to invest in four different workflows, right? I want to train my team on one. I want to have a common way of delivering it. And that's a developer efficiency. I think there's the sort of Shangri-la of multicloud which is this idea of like workload migration. I'm going to push a button and move it from cloud-A to cloud-B. And I think for most organizations that's, you know very hard to architect for. It requires so much discipline. And I'm not sure it's actually practical for most organizations. 'Cause it means that's you can't really use any of the cloud's high value services. It means that you have to really architect everything for data portability, everything for workflow portability. And so I think what's reasonable is kind of exactly what you said, which is like-- >> Well the Shangri-La example is a good one. I mean, throw in SLAs on latency. I mean, you can't even get network latency is just so all over the map. So SLAs are, just, that's almost impossible. >> Yeah. It's-- >> At this point. So the low-hanging fruit is ultimately is data portability and workflows. >> Yeah. >> And preserving the developer focus. So what is your take on, I'd love to get your expert opinion on this, because people are investing in developers. And it's that there are people who are doing it well and some are not doing it very well. Meaning they've been relying on outsourced vendors. You know, this company's been providing all my dev. And we've been lean and mean. We got dashboard, we're pushing, provisioning servers. And I got the cloud, I got Amazon dashboard. But now, I can't really, crank anything craft out there. I need real developers. So you got great and poor. >> Right. >> What's the success point for having a good strong, enterprise developers? >> So you know I think what's interesting is those companies you're talking about that you're sort of used to outsourcing everything. For them, they never thought about software dev as a core competency, right? It's like "Oh I'm, you know, I'm a media company," Or, "I'm a retailer." It's not like competency. I'm just going to outsource to HP, IBM, whoever to do my dev work. And I think what's changing is as you think about dev ops as sort of this new digital economy it's that, no, the application is my value, right? Like, yes, maybe the product I end up delivering to you is a razor blade but my value is in the digital experience, the engagement. So I think your core competency has to become software development. And I think that that's that big shift, right? It's a bit of a top-down shift in terms of how do you think about the development group? And then I think from there it's bootstrapping a culture. It's bootstrapping sort of those core engineering teams. Like, to your point the kind of cloud-native practitioners. I think you have to foster that, sort of internal culture and community. But it's also a top-down investment. That's never going to work in a bottoms-up way if you don't foster the top-down investment and say, Actually, I'm going to think about this team as a revenue driver and not a cost center. >> It's interesting, I was just doing an exercise on the flight out from California here to the east coast. And I was look at all the different players that we cover. We cover, you know hundreds and hundreds of companies. And I was trying to put them in buckets. And then I was like,cloud-native, this is clearly the cloud-native bucket. People in the cloud-native, it's like we know who they are. Then I'm like, okay, enterprise, data center, no, hybrid, oh yeah, hybrid. Well are they hybrid? Hybrid IT? No, no, hybrid developer? So, I was just like trying to shoehorn in, like. So hybrid certainly is there. But hybrid IT is kind of losing favor on my list. It became hybrid developers. Meaning that IT wasn't like, categorically relevant in just how they were organizing. >> Right. >> They were either doing hybrid with developers, and then you had pure cloud-native which is just scale. >> Right. >> So those two worlds are coming together on the data. >> Right. >> Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, I mean that, to your point, that you can think about the sort of, the architecture, the application architecture I think as being distinct from the IT practices. Right, and think to your point you can live in this sort of weird world where you might have a cloud-native architecture but sort of a traditional IT practice. and I think maybe that that's what sort of a hybrid IT might look like. So I think that ultimately people want to migrate away from that into more of sort of a truly cloud-native dev ops sort of mentality. >> Well I think that one of the insights that's happening real-time with this conversation is that, if software is your core competency, then inherently IT is subsumed into it. Because in dev ops they are the IT. >> Right. >> Right, so. >> Right. You better be really good at it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so every company I mean I think ultimately that's the pivot in my mind is that if you're not going software digital then you might not make it. >> Yeah. >> Ultimately, because someone else will. >> Right, exactly. >> All right, talk about your success in HachiCorp. What's been the magic formula for you guys? If you had to look at. I know it's hard, and sometimes you get lucky. You guys have made your own breaks. You have a good philosophy, a good culture. But you had some tailwinds, you had some good, good trends at your back helping you. What's the big success formula for you guys? >> You know I think there's two big ones, right? I think that two is sort of bigger trends that we're sort of riding is that one is this notion of cloud-adoption. Right, like, you know, that's huge. The other one is this sort of app modernization of how do I go from traditional, ticket-driven process of delivering an app into dev ops, self-service agile delivery? And so I think that sort of modernization of the process is just as important as the modernization of the architecture from on-premise to cloud. Right, so I think that we're kind of riding both of those. And I think what's been really important for HashiCorp is sort of an ethos that I think has helped us, is this notion that we care a lot more about workflow than we care about the technology, right? 'Cause what's crazy to me is we're a small, you know, we're still a start-up, right? And so in the last six, seven years of our life if you look at 2012 and say, hey, what's changed from a technology standpoint since then? I'd say everything. 2012, you had one cloud, you didn't have Docker, you didn't have Containers, you didn't have Kubernetes, you didn't have serverless, you didn't have infrastructure as code, right? So, there's just sea-change after sea-change in terms of technology. But what hasn't changed is core workflow. And I think for us that investing was, hey, we're going to be a workflow-oriented company and those things don't change. Where if we say, "I'm going to be the best shop at delivering Java." And then Docker shows up. You know that's an existential threat to your business. >> Exactly. And I think that one of the things that we as a tech industry get into is speeds and feeds, the shiny new toy. And I think that's a great success formula. In fact I was just having a conversation with another technologist this past week. And we were talking about all the cool stuff's going on. He goes, John, John, forget about the workflow as one thing, as underpinning. There's things going on. That's automation there's some goodness there. He goes "But up the stack, machine learning, AI," "Forget all that, it's just the work load." So if you think about just work load and workflow. >> Right. >> Everything else should just fall into place. >> Exactly. >> And that's where the cloud, 2.0 is modernization is going. >> Right, so I think that the companies you've seen succeed are either, to your point, they're a new type of work load that exists in the cloud as a manage service. It's Confluent, it's Spark, right? It Cockroach that I can go consume as a service. Or you have the workflow vendors who have said, great, I'm going to give you a common, multi-cloud dev ops way of consuming that and deploying that workload out there. And I think those are sort of the two patterns that work. >> It's so exciting, this new wave, it's great. And it's just the beginning, ehrtr multi-cloud here. I got to get your take while you're here on cloud 2.0. It's something that I've been kicking around inside theCUBE team as a goof on Web 2.0. 'Cause Web 2.0 was a big goof, "Oh it's Web 2.0." And it caused a lot of fun. Cloud 1.0, if we just say is Amazon, compute, storage, not so much networking, but large scale born in the cloud goodness. Great. But now the reality of the enterprise and hybrid, things are emerging. Observability is important. Automation's important, workflows. How would you define cloud 2.0? What's the, if you had to take a stab at that kind of architectural definition. Where there's new subsystems emerging that are important. Like observability is just network management, but it's super important. >> Right. >> Automation, configuration management, but it's now automated. Those are now little white spaces that have become very important. >> Right. >> Where do you see the building blocks of cloud 2.0? >> So I think with cloud 1.0, I think it was characterized largely by like a lift and shift. Right, you said, okay, I can kind of see how it looks similar to my on-prem. I'm just going to lift and shift the same thing. Versus cloud 2.0 I think the phrase we like to use is it's multi-everything. Right, you're multi-cloud, right, it's multiple public cloud and on-prem. It's multi-platform. It's not just lift and shift of VM. It's great I have my VM-based workload, but I have my container, I have my Kubernetes, I have my serverless. So I have a ton of different platforms that I'm consuming. And it's also multi-service. Right, we talk about micro-service sort of patterns that's not just take my monolithic Java and move it to the cloud, it's decompose that one app into 50 services. Some are Container, some are serverless, some are VM. And mixing and matching all of that. So I think that 2.0 world is much more sort of dynamic. Much more sort of a diverse set of technologies that you're using. But to your point that brings in a bunch of enterprise reality of it's not managing one simple app anymore. There's a ton of complexity in managing the multi-cloud multi-platform nature of it. So I think there's a lot more investment in sort of management tooling and process to actually make that sort of sane. >> Well what's next for you guys? You guys are doing some great work, again, congratulations. HashiCorp has really earned great reputation, great user base, great following. People sing praises about your tools and software. What's next? What's it conquering next? >> I think you know, there's two things we recently announced. One was our sort of Terraform cloud service which was, Hey how do we take Terraform from just desktop tool? make it sort of a cloud experience where you can collaborate on it as a service. Sort of use APIs to hook it into your other systems. And similarly we announced a partnership with Microsoft on a console and Azure service. Right, so I think we're starting looking at that and saying really how do we kind of, you know. I think the irony of HashiCorp is, we're a cloud infrastructure company, but we sell desktop software. Right, like there's an obvious disconnect there. So I think how do we, sort of right that? And sort of say, okay, really people want to consume this stuff as a service. How do we meet them where they are? >> Offer both options. >> Exactly. >> Well, Armon, thanks a lot for coming on sharing. I know your super valuable time, coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. HashiCorp here in theCUBE conversation, talking about what's going on in this dynamic world of modern infrastructure, modern software, where software's a core competence and multi-cloud reality's coming. CUBE covering is here, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching.

>>from San Francisco. It's the Q covering pager duty Summit 2019. Brought to you by pager Duty. >>Hey, welcome back there. Ready, Geoffrey? Here with the cue, we're pager duty Summit in the historic Western St Francis Hotel, downtown San Francisco. I think they've outgrown the venue. The place is packed to the gills. Standing, rolling, the keynote Really excited of our next guest. Someone who's been to this industry for awhile really done some super cool creative things. He's given the closing keynote. We're happy to have him here right now. That's Mitchell Hashimoto from Hachiko. It's great to see you. >>Good to see you too. Thanks for having >>absolutely so just a quick overview before we get into it on hot chic or for the people in our familiar >>Sure, so hospitals a company that what we try to do is help people adopt cloud, but more, more realistically, Adolfo multi cloud and hybrid cloud the real world complexities. That cloud isn't just a technical landing point, but it's really way You deliver software. You want to deliver more applications, you want to connect them faster. You want to do this in an automated away infrastructure is code of all these modern practices way. Build a suite of tools Thio provisions secure, connect and run those applications for separate products that we sell that you could adopt separately. Good mix and match. That's That's what we've been doing for a long time. Based on open source Software, Way started purely as an open source community and have grown into an enterprise cos that's that's That's the elevator pitch. >>No, it's great, but it's a great story, >>right? Europe, Europe in Seattle got some access to some cloud infrastructure and really solve your own problem. Figured out other people of that problem and then really built a really cool, open source kind of based software company. >>Yeah, I mean, I think the amount of people that had the problem I was facing personally was orders of magnitude more than I expected. I've told other people we never expected to start even a business around this. It was just scratching and building technical solutions. But a CZ, as we sort of worked at startups, started talking a bigger and bigger companies. It just kept everyone kept saying, Yes, I have that problem and it's only grown since then, right surprising, >>and the complexity has only grown exponentially before. The you know, years ago, there was this bright, shiny new object called a W s. I mean, I love Bezos is great line that nobody even paid attention. You have six or seven years. They've got a head start and kind of this Russian. Now there's been a little bit of a fallback as people trying to figure out what to go where now it's hybrid cloud and horses for courses. So a lot of great complexity, which is nothing but good news for you. >>Absolutely. I told this story before, but our first year incorporated company I actually got hung up on by an analyst because I said way we're trying to solve a multi cloud problem and they said that's not a real problem when it will never be a real problem. They hung up on me on it was a bet, then, and and I think they're the expectation that was it was gonna be Eight of us is gonna be physical infrastructure and the physical infrastructure days were numbered. It was gonna get acts out. It was just gonna all go to eight of us and our conviction was that you would have both forever and or for a very long time. And then people like Azure, Google and others would pick up and and that's been true. But I think what we didn't expect, the complexity that got introduced with things like containers in Kubernetes because it's not like Clouded option finished in the next started It all came at once. So now Riel Cos they're dealing with the complexity of their still trying to move the clouds. They're trying to get more out of their physical infrastructure, trying to adopt kubernetes. Now people are starting to peck at them about server list. So there the complexity is is a bit crazy and review our job trying to simplify that adoption make you get the most out of >>right. And that was before you could get a piece of Ian where inside of AWS, get a get a piece of the Google Data Center inside your own data center. So it just continues to get crazier. >>Yes, yeah, So you're giving a closing keynote on a >>new project. You're working on fault, and it's an existing project. Justin cry. They're old, but but I think you talked about before we turn the cameras on. It's really more of a kind of an attitude in a and a point of view and a way to go after the problem. So I wonder if you could kind of dig into a little bit of What did you see? How did you decide to kind of turn the lens a little bit and reframe this challenge? Yeah, >>I think the big picture of story I'm trying to tell him the keynote is that everybody? Anything You look around the technical nontechnical, this table, that glass. Like everything you look at, it trickles back to the idea of one or a small group of people, and it takes an army to make it show up on this table. But it starts by somebody's vision, and everything was created by somebody. So I'm talking about vault, something we made and, you know, why don't we create it? And why do we make it the way we did? And you know, another thing I say is people ask, Why did you start hot record for having this vision? Something I constantly told myself was wine on me. I get someone's gonna do it. Why not make it? Could be anybody, like I'll give it a shot. Why not? And Bolt was that way. We Armand. I'm a co founder. Way took security classes in college, but we don't have a formal security background. We didn't work in security in industry. So the odds of us launching a security product that is so prevalent today whether you know it or not, it's behind the scenes very prevalent were stacked against us. How did that happen? And that's that's sort of what I've been going to talk about. >>Let's go. But do >>dive into a little bit on the security challenge because it's funny, right? Everyone always says, Right. Security's got to be baked in and you've got these complex infrastructure and everything's connected with AP eyes, the other people's applications and, oh yes, delivered through this little thing that you carry around. And maybe the network's not working well or the CPS running low are You're running iPhone five. And of course, it's not gonna work on most modern app. Yeah, bacon security always do, but that's easy to say. It's much harder to do, you know. Still, people want to build moats and castles and drawbridges, and that's just not gonna work anymore. >>Exactly. So you exactly hit upon the two major issues that we recognize there felt we recognize. One was that a lot of people were saying it. Very few people were doing it on. The reality was it was hard to do. Everyone knew theoretically what they should do. No one, no one thought. Oh yeah, saving somebody's personal information in plain text in the daytime. It's a good idea. Nobody thought that Everyone said it should be encrypted, but encryption is hard. So maybe one day, so no one was doing it. And then the other side of it was the people that were doing it where the world's largest companies, because the solutions were catered towards his mindset of of castle and moats, which works totally fine in a physical tradition environment but completely breaks down in a cloud world where there is no four perimeters anymore. It's >>still there, There. >>You're one AP I call away from opening everything to the Internet. So how do you protect this? And we've seen a lot of trends change towards zero Trust and ServiceMaster Mutual feel like there's a lot of stuff that happened way sort of jumped on that. >>Yeah, so So you're using, like, multi level encryption, and I've read a little bit on the website. It's way over my head, I think. But, you >>know, the basics are just making kryptonite. Christian makes security, cloud infrastructure, security approachable by anybody and a core philosophy. Our company, Hashi Hashi Hashi. My name means bridge, and that is a core part of our culture. Which is you can't just have, ah, theoretical thing or a shiny object and leave people hanging. You gotta give them a bridge, a path to get there, right? And so we say, with all our technology, one of the crawl, walk and run adoption periods and with security it's the same is that to say you're secure means something totally different everybody for a bank to be secure, it's a lot more than for a five person started to be secure. So how do you give somebody a solutions they could adopt? Check the security box for themselves at every path of the lake, and bald is one of the tools that way have individuals using it, and we have the world's largest companies, almost 10% of the global 2000 paying customers evolved many more open source users on its scales the entire spectrum. >>Wow. So you keep coming up >>with lots of new, uh, new projects as we get ready to flip the counter to 2020. What are some of the things you're thinking about? >>I think the big one, you know, that our focus is right now is service. Miss Vault is we're big enough company now where we always have teams working on every every one of our projects we have release is going out. The thing we've been talking about the most is the service mess thing. I think Cloud as a mainstream thing, Let's say, has has existed for seven or eight years. It's since it's been released. It's been over in almost 15 but as a thing that people have, that is a good idea. Seven or eight years and you know we've touched security. Now we've touched how infrastructures managed touch developers. I think a place that's been relatively untouched and has gotten by without anyone noticing has been networking and network security. They're they're really doing things the way they've always done things, and I think that's been okay because there's bigger fish to fry. But I think the time has come and networking as a bull's eye on it. And people are looking at What is networking mean in a cloud world and service mash appears to be the way that is gonna happen. Way have our own service mess solution called Council on Our Approaches Standard Hasta Corp. It's nothing new. It's We're gonna work with everything containers, kubernetes, viens physical infrastructure. We're gonna make it all work across multiple data centers. That is our approach service fashion, solving that challenge. >>What's the secret sauce? >>I mean, it's not that secret, right? >>It's just building. Just execute. Better understand that this header >>JD is the problem, right? Right, I said, This is our keynote a couple weeks ago that there are a lot of service messes out there, and nine out of 10 of them are solving a solution for a single environment, whether it's kubernetes or physical environment. And I think that's a problem. But it's not the problem. The problem to me is how do I get my kubernetes instances pods to communicate to my NSX service is on my physical infrastructure. That is the problem as people, whether that's temporary, not and they intend to move the communities or whatever. It's that's the reality. And how do you make that work? And that is what we're focused on solving that problem >>just every time I hear service mess. I think there was a company a while ago that sold the CSC. Probably like 2013. Didn't really get into That is a as a good, happy story. But they were early on the name. Yeah. Yeah. So last thing pager duty were Pedrie. What? You guys doing a page of duty? >>Sure. So we've been I've actually been a paying customer pager duty since before we even made this company in my previous job was a customer wear now, still customers. So we still use it internally. But in addition to that way, do integration across the board. So with terra form our infrastructure provisioning tool way have a way to manage all pager duty as code and as your complexion pager duty rises instead of clicking through a u. I being able to version and code everything and have that realize itself and how he works very valuable from like a service MASH consul standpoint. Hooking in the monitoring to the alerting of Pedro duty is a big thing that we do so tying those together. So it's very symbiotic. I love pager duty as a user and a partner. There's a lot here. >>Yeah, is pretty interesting slide when Jennifer put up in the keynote where it listed so many integration points with so many applications with on the outside looking in and you're like how you're integrating with spunk, that making how you're innovating with service. Now that doesn't make any sense. How Integrated was in Desperate. These were all kind of systems of record, but really, there's some really elegant integration points to make. This one plus one equals three opportunity between these applications. >>Yeah, I think it's very similar to the stuff we do with Walton Security. It's like the core permanence. Everybody needs him like with security. Everyone is an auto. Everyone needs traceability. Everyone needs access control. But rebuilding that functionality and every application is unrealistic. And paging and alerting an on call and events are the same thing. So it's you'd rather integrate and leverage those systems that make that your nexus for that specific functionality. And that's where Page duties. Awesome way. Step in, >>which was always great to catch up. Good luck on your keynote tomorrow. And really, it's a really amazing story to watch that you got You guys have built >>Well, thank you very much. >>All right. He's Mitchell. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cue. Were paid your duty, Simon in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> From Sand Hill Road in the heart of Silicone Valley, it's theCube, presenting the People First Network, insights from entrepreneurs and tech leaders. >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier with theCube. We are here in Sand Hill Road at Mayfield office here talking about entrepreneurship, People First, this is our co-created program with Mayfield. I'm John Furrier, your host, we're with Mitchell Hashimoto, who's the co-founder and co-CEO at HashiCorp. Great to see you, good to keep alumni, you're back on theCube . Thanks for joining me today. >> Yeah, thanks so much, I was here so long ago. (John laughs) >> Like five or six years ago. >> So, we've been really psyched about the program that Mayfield's put together called People First. They're celebrating their 50th anniversary as a venture capital firm, which is historic in the sense that it's kind of still a young industry. Think about it. And love to have entrepreneurs come on because you've been very successful. We talked years ago. I think, the first year you were formed and Cloud certainly has happened. Open Source continues to pump more value. I mean, you get things out there coming out of Google, some ridiculously amazing... The goodness in Open Source is certainly driving a lot of great software development. You've been a part of that so thanks for joining us. So I got to ask you, you guys are growing right now, you're Venture backed, you got a unique culture. Explain HashiCorp, 'cause you guys have a unique business. You're in Open Source, you're in Cloud, you're a distributed workforce. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing. >> Yeah, so we are trying to build or have been building, sort of infrastructure software of the future. We've been saying that since we were founded and what's been interesting is the future has changed quite a bit in the past six years so there's been Cloud, that was the big thing when we were founded and then containers and now schedulers and Kubernetes and things like that. And while we're doing that, we're also sort of building what I think is sort of the company of the future, which is over 90% of our workfoce is fully distributed. Basically, unless there's legal reasons not to be distributed, we are distributed and we're in multiple countries, we're in over 40 states. All of our process is built remote first so everything happens, Slack, all our meetings are Zoom. Even our all hands, we present behind a camera, and things like that so I think that's all very unique, but only for now, I think that-- >> How do you do the all hands? That's interesting. Do you have a camera to a zoom or is it a camera live streaming? How do you do the all hands? >> Yeah, so we set up sort of an AV setup in our office because we have a few of the executives in the office that often are presenting on the all hands and we set up a camera feed so that whether you actually decide to go into the office or whether you're at home, we want that experience to be authentic to both sides. We don't want a great in-room experience and then one corner camera that makes it really hard to hear and stuff like that so yeah, you have to walk up to the camera and be part of the zoom to really be part of the all hands. >> So that people feel present and connected? >> Right, exactly, and we force questions to come through Slack. There's no in-person questions. You have to ask on Slack so everyone can see them and things like that, so-- >> That's awesome. Talk about the journey as you started. You have a co-founder. You guys have an interesting relationship. How did this all get started? What was the beginning genesis of HashiCorp like and take us through some of the early days. >> Sure, so I'm very lucky, I have a co-founder who before the company, we were best friends and after the company or during the company, we're still best friends so (laughs) which it isn't always the case, but in terms of HashiCorp itself, we're super lucky 'cause we went to the University of Washington, up in Seattle, and this was in sort of the mid-2000s and this is a good time to be up there, 'cause Cloud was starting to emerge and we were sort of equidistant geographically, across the lake, if you will, to Amazon, Google, and Microsoft and so, we were getting early access to what they thought was sort of the Cloud at the time and it was rapidly changing. We were getting access to the servers, with the APIs, and all this stuff and being a university without a lot of funding, my job there was sort of to help us utilize all these resources and so in the mid 2000s, Armand and I were already realizing, we're on the same team, Armand and I were already realizing that this is not a solved problem by any means, I mean this is a new problem and that eventually, years later, became the genesis-- >> and what was that problem that you saw immediately? >> It was sort of like multi-Cloud, resource management, deployment, security, it's funny 'cause it's... Over 10 years later and it's... It is the problem that Enterprise are hitting right now. >> Think about the early days of Amazon. I still have these memory flashbacks of EC2, long URLs, it's like, okay, now how to I redirect my web servers to this, like, so it was easy to stand up on EC2 instance, put a little S3 to it, then it's like, okay now what? >> Yeah, we're at the-- >> Little red scale, I put this in there, what's kind of there. So again, a little early, kind of build your own kind of a junkyard. You build a car out of some spare parts. But then it had to mature really fast. >> Yeah, we're are the Day Zero state then and now we're firmly in like Day Two. >> And so what was the next step. Can you peg the journey for us, because obviously, they grew up really fast and then they really kind of hit a tipping point around 2010, 11, 12, 13, and kind of grew like a weed >> Yup, yeah, so around that time frame you just painted to 2012 is when Enterprise was sort of adopting it. And I think a lot of that was single Cloud focus. There was very much like, this is our first Cloud so we're going to land purely on Amazon or something and focus on that and we're at the point now, about six years later, 2018, where the maturity around operating the Cloud is sort of well understood and companies are now starting to sort of use what's best for the job and also realized that there's multiple Clouds and we're keeping our private data centers and also, there's new things coming on the scene above Cloud sort of higher level, like Kubernetes, and how we're going to manage all this and so, we like to describe it as sort of the mindset is like the Cloud operating model. It's like you can't operate your resources in the Cloud the same way you do on Prim and people are starting to get that. That's like automation, very people-focused workflows, things like that, and companies are getting that and so now the challenge is these heterogeneous environments. >> So, the top conversation in our office and everyone loves when I bring this up, I want to get your definition and opinion, >> Okay. >> Is Kubernetes. >> Sure. >> Kubernetes, just, a lot of people love it. I've been having Kubernetes dreams these days 'cause there's so much Kubernetes conversation. (Mitchell laughs) you got Kubernetes, you got the notion of Service Mesh is right around the corner, StateFul applications with net problems really hard to work on. Stateless has been around for awhile. What's the importance of Kubernetes? What's the impact, in your opinion, expert opinion, why is Kubernetes important and what's the impact of Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I think the more abstract answer is the scheduler idea and Kubernetes are built on that and really, it's the idea of like, let's move away from looking at the individual machine and let's start moving higher level to just assuming resources are there. It's sort of like when you write, the transition of when you were writing software from having to know how much memory you had to just, let's just assume it's infinite and put whatever in there and it's someone else's problem and we're sort of moving into that data center, it's like, let's just assume we always have compute and storage and network and let's just deploy and what freedom does that give you and I think that's really what Schedulers give you and also, when you sort of take away huge operability challenges of placing the application and giving that to a computer to put in the right spot, you can now deploy so many more applications because-- >> so you're freed up? >> You're freed up in a lot of ways. It introduces a lot of new challenges, but that's a good problem. You want new challenges, you want to solve the old ones. >> What are some of the new challenges that you see emerging that kind of keep the evolution going? >> I think Service Mesh is a great example we could jump into, which is that the challenge of, we like to describe Service Mesh as three fundamental problems, which is discoverability, configurability, and secure connectivity. If you have two services, that is not a problem because you could hard-code the IPs, you could hard-code the configuration, and you could just hard-code TLS certificates, make it work. When you have thousands of services that are coming and going and people are trying new services all the time, that has to all be automated so the idea of Service Mesh is automating that and making it invisible, automatic, free, and that's new, that's a new problem. >> And that's a huge concept. This is a scalable, scale out, huge concept, and super important. >> Yes, yeah. >> This changes the game at many levels. What would you see that changing? What would some of the, for folks who are just now understanding, what does it change downstream or down the road for enterprises and for businesses? >> I think the biggest change is a mind shift change from sort of perimeter or host-based security to identity and service-based security. So, traditional sort of networking and security is very IP Space focused, it's like does this rack talk to this rack or no and things like that. And that has to all go away because that's restricting the placement, that's not allowing apps to go anywhere. We have to move towards this service can or can't talk to this service, don't care where it is or anything and sort of move from a perimeter to just the perimeter being the app itself so we have to sort of firewall and protect right at the app layer and that's hard to transition, that's tooling change, that's education change, that's team change. >> I want to ask you, I could talk about this forever, Cloud Automation is, I think, one of the most important things. That's only going to make AI more powerful and the data behind it, and as new data emerges, but I got to ask you about some of the new blood coming into the market place because traditionally, if you think about Service Mesh, oh it's a software problem, we'll just solve the software, but you actually got to have networking shops, you got to have to have a computer science or computer engineering. A new skill sets developing really fast in this new, I don't want to, maybe call it under the hood, I don't know what to call it, but maybe, it's an engineering mindset, where people, there's a huge demand for skills in automating. It's not your classic application developers, there's great role for that and there's tons of apps being built, but, I'm talking about a new kind of operator. >> Yes. >> What's your take on this new skill, this new opportunity for people to learn and develop a career? >> Yeah, I think the real way to look at it, I like to look at it, is sort of the difference between creating, sort of doing something once and creating a process to do something. And there's sort of two different tasks, righ. It's like when you get promoted for the first time from you know, to manager. It's like the big challenge is learning how to teach others process and enforcing consistent process, versus actually, you know, doing it yourself. And I think that's the difference between someone who is used to the slinging, let's go back to like the server automation, someone who's used to just manually clicking or slinging bass scripts to do one off task, you could be a wizard at that, but then, try to do that repeatably, safely, 9000 times out of 9000 times and now, that's a resiliency challenge. That's sort of understanding failure modes. It's very different and I think that's the biggest skill set to adopt is, I always sort of push anybody in their job to just what, how do you not do your job? Like, how do you move on to the next problem? >> How do you eliminate your job? >> Yeah, basically/ >> That's almost, like the way I think about it. >> Yeah, what's the process. Is it possible right now? And if it's not possible, what's sort of blocking it? >> So I want to ask you a question and I love this one, going to move on just from the business side in a second, but I want to get your thoughts because I've been having conversations lately with Cloud folks and engineers and developers around two words, replicating and reproducing. >> Okay. >> They're kind of two different concepts. Reproducing is doing the same thing over again. Make that spaghetti sauce, do it again, but did I write it down? Is there a recipe? Or I could just hand you the recipe and say, you make it yourself or automating it. So I think, replicating, I'll say has scale, reproducing requires the same components. Do you see dev ops evolving to a point where, do it once and it's replicated? Or is there some reproduction involved, reproducing things? Where is that, where do you see the tech happening? >> I think inevitably, you're sort of doing both, but my sort of dream world, where I think it'll be still, but I think it's sooner than we expect, but I think sort of like 10 years from now is a safe, sort of stage, it's sort of like every, it doesn't matter if you're Fortune 500 or a new company, sort of the way it infrastructure server management goes is you just start with one server. I like to call it the stem cell server. You just start with one server, you say what you want and just let it go and it's going to either replicate or reproduce, it's either creating something new or it's like creating more copies of itself, but it'll turn into any sort of scale face, book level scale that you would want in theory and I think that, that's sort of my long, you know, fence post, guiding fence post, that I always think about the problem. >> Talk about the culture of your company, you guys have a new CEO, you have a partner you've been best friends with so-- >> I don't think he's that new? >> Yes he is. (both laugh) Okay, he's been around for awhile? >> Couple years, yeah. >> Couple years, so you've had a co-founder dynamic. Did you guys look at each other and say hey, we got to bring a CEO in . Some people like to have one of the founders be the CEO. Talk about that dynamic 'cause that's a struggle for a lot of entrepreneurs to have the self awareness and or the need to do that. >> Yeah so Armand and I made the decision to look for a CEO, if possible, I think three and a half or four years ago, it took us almost two years to find Dave and our motivation is really, it's a few things, one was something our investors told us, which is, long term, you want to do for the company you want to give the company the biggest value you can and like, what do you bring to the company? For us, as founders, our skill set was product vision, engineering, sort of industry strategy, things like that and it wasn't the executive management, financing, building various teams like sales marketing, building out the corporate structure, that wasn't us and so we looked at it and thought, we could learn it, probably, but we would make mistakes and it would be hard, it's just not our passion, it's not what we want to do, or we could try to find someone who aligns with our culture and gets our vision, gets open source, things like that, bring them in and sort of scale to a way where we're giving our startup the best chance it has, which means we give it the value we do, which is engineering and product vision and the new person coming in gives it that sort of corporate maturity and that's exactly what Dave did. >> That's awesome and it's always hard to do that because you got to have real maturity to make that happen so congratulations. >> Thanks, yeah. >> You know, a lot of us have that problem. (chuckles) and then one of my startups like, I need a new CEO, the venture guys were pushing it on you, but it's a challenge, you know, you got to think about, you know... That we didn't have a business model back then, but it's different stories, but that's always a tough one. Now let's talk about the culture around where you started from and where you are now because a lot of the stories around entrepreneurship is team, culture, and how you're going to set up your future of work, which you guys have a good structure. Iterating and figuring out where the tail wind is. Are you at the spot where you thought you'd be at a few years ago when we first met? How has it evolved, where there a little bit of zigs and zags you had to make. What was that like and share some of the journey color commentary with us. >> Sure, I mean, as a company sizes, we're nowhere near where I thought we'd be. I think Armand and I came into it expecting failure most likely and so anything beyond that was just surprise. So that's great. I think the place we are where we thought we'd be is sort of the company culture and stuff and that's something we've been very fiercely protective of and we define our culture sort of as we published them, we call the principal of HashiCorp, which sort of revolve around kindness, honesty, humility, things like that, so it's who would we want to work with and let's put words to it because we don't want to be this nebulous thing and so we've held to that really strongly. We're over 300 people now and every... Something Armand says, which I totally agree with, is I come into work, come into work, I go to my remote office, but I come into work and I'm excited to work with everyone at HashiCorp, which is, in past jobs we've had, we'd come into work and we're excited to work with like two out of 10 people, you know, and that's not a good ratio to have and I think that's what I'm most proud of from the culture side, that the ways we've done that is like we have the principles. We also have something called The Tal, which has been incredibly successful for us, both internally and externally, which is how we view product development and design and that helps sort of align the type of engineer who could get behind our vision and put some words to our vision so it's not again nebulous, whatever the founders think. >> So they have expectations of what's going to be like? >> Mhmm. >> From a coding standpoint, contribution? >> Yeah, from how do you, I like to describe it as how do you build product and how do you... How do you handle people? We have the two sides totally published and we're pretty explicit about it. >> That's awesome. Talk about the role of open source and lots of changing and you're seeing a lot of things like the Linux Foundation, CNCF, massively commercialized, there's tons of money coming in there, but Linux Foundation has done a good job of keeping that pretty pure. Success in entrepreneurship and open source go hand in hand now, it's almost... It's really the perfect storm for creators. >> Yeah. >> But, there's a playbook, there's a way that's changed. Share your vision of how you think open source is today and where it needs to maintain and what could be changed for the better? >> Yeah, I think, so open source today is pretty much a default, expected, accepted, sort of a pattern, which is really nice. It gives you community so you could, you know, Groundswell, anyone could adopt your software, without having to go through a sales person or something like that, which is really important, anyone can contribute and make their mark on the software. It's a great way to sort of get careers started. I think it brings a level of transparency to software that is, you know, you could hide behind closed source. It's like we like to tell our customers, it's like if you don't believe us, not only try it, but go look at how it works. We're telling you the truth. And I think that's really important. I think there's still a lot of challenges around how do companies sort of build successful businesses around it? I think we're doing alright and things like that, but there's still low number of data points. >> Always the challenge is, from looking at your reaction on this, is that as companies get involved, the classic reaction was, oh we got the big companies now in this open source project, it's going to be land grabbed, they're going to put their fingers in there, need better governance. >> Yup. >> Things fracture. Where ideally, it's an upstream project, where everyone contributes for the better good and then people pull it downstream. I mean, that's the basic ethos of open source. That's the main, that's the playbook that we want and that's what you believe, that's the ideal scenario? >> I think that yeah, I think shared ownership is really important, but I also think that sort of unified vision is equally important. So, that's a healthy tension to me, which is that you have a huge community that wants to pull the project in different directions and I think if you don't, if you have a governance that's totally fair, what ends up happening, in my opinion, is you end up getting camels instead of horses, right, like you'd start pulling in all these different directions. You sort of need a slightly unfair governance model so there is somebody that says, this is the direction we're going. And that person needs to be someone that's trusted by the community. >> And Linux was very successful with that too, I mean, you know. >> Right, and I think Linux is an example of a project that like reaches a point where that's, the vision is obvious and clear and it reaches a point where, you know, Linux could step down for a bit and take a break and it still runs fine, but it's a-- >> in the early days, you need a benevolent dictator to say, look, we got to do this. >> Yeah, right, Linux is a 25, 30 year old project versus, you know, some of these CNCF projects are two or three years old and I think that's where you absolutely need strong leadership versus-- >> But we'll see. We'll look at the contribution. We look at that, we obviously follow that pretty heavily and learn to appreciate the Kubernetes commentaries. We think that's super important too. Obviously containers, it's pretty much voted, it's open now so. >> Yes, yeah, yeah. >> (laughs) We know that. Okay, so I got to ask you the final question. As an entrepreneur, access to capital is super important. How did you guys go about it? How did you raise money? How should people raise money today? I'll say your an entrepreneur in the ecosystem, you're out in the front lines building a company. >> Mhmm. >> How did you guys access the capital? How should people figure this out? >> Yeah, I mean you just, you got to tell people why, you know it's a marketing problem, in away, but you got to tell people why what you're working on matters because it's so obvious to you as the founder, that's easy, it's about how do you articulate that and tell people how and why it's important and not just to you, but to the market and how it's going to help people and we did that and I think our biggest challenge was we had to do that across six or seven products, which is, we had a lot of pressure to like, why don't you just do one thing, but it was because for us, what was important was not just what the product did, but the greater vision behind why are we doing six things. And we just, you'd say that and you'd find people who believe it and they help you. >> And as you guys, a great example of you're on a big wave with Cloud and Open Source. How should entrepreneurs and what do you guys do to do this, maybe it's more of advice or anecdotal observation, as you have the dynamics with investors, advisors, service providers, how do you get the most out of them and how do you manage that board dynamic, because when you have an emerging market, there's a danger of saying, we got to lock in a business model. >> Yeah. >> So in Open Source, I'll see a little bit more freedom there 'cause you're open source, but that's always a danger and it's that much more you got to balance that, okay, we got to move the needle, but let's not overdrive too hard. How should entrepreneurs handle the... Taking advantage of their investors and board and how should they manage them or work with them? >> Yeah, I think on one side you need sort of, it's like multiple pillars and on one pillar you need a strong vision, so you need, what won't you sacrifice on, sort of? What's the fence post in the distance and maybe the journey there is slightly different, but you know where you're sort of heading towards so that always grounds you. I think the second thing is sort of a level of pragmatism, like you need to have that vision, but you need to meet your customers where they are and so, you need to figure out what you need to give them today, but still head towards that vision. And when you have those two things, you have a board that is on board with both of those things, you have founders that are dedicated, and you have employees, as well, and everything sort of moves in the right direction. >> But you got to lay that out. >> You have to be pretty explicit about it, yeah. >> Alright, well, congratulations on all your success and looking forward to following up and seeing how you guys are doing. Thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts today. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. I'm John Furrier here at Mayfield for the 50th anniversary, part of our People First network coverage. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat techno music) >> From Union Square in downtown San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering PagerDuty Summit '18. Now, here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at PagerDuty summit in the Westin St. Francis, Union Square, San Francisco. We're excited to have our next guest, this guy likes to get into the weeds. We'll get some into the weeds, not too far in the weeds. Armon Dagar, he's a co-founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Armon, great to see you. >> Thanks so much for having me, Jeff. >> Absolutely, so you're just coming off your session so how did the session go? What did you guys cover? >> It's super good, I mean I think what we wanted to do was sort of take a broader look and not just talk too much just about monitoring and so the talk was really about zero trust networking. Sort of the what, the how, the why. >> Right, right, so that's very important topic. Did Bitcoin come up or blockchain? Or are you able to do zero trust with no blockchain? >> We were able to get through with no blockchain, thankfully I suppose. >> Right. >> But I think kind of the gist of it when we talk about, I think that the challenge is it's still sort of at that nascent point where people are like, okay, zero trust networking I've heard of it, I don't really know what it is or what mental category to put it in. So I think what we tried to do was sort not get too far in the weeds, as you know I tend to do but sort of start high level. >> Right, right. >> And say, what's the problem, right? And I think the problem is we live in this world today of traditional flat networks where, I have a castle and moat, right? I wrap my data center in four walls, all my traffic comes over a drawbridge, and you're either on the outside and you're bad and untrusted or your on the inside and you're good and trusted. And so what happens when a bad guy gets in, right? >> Right. >> It's sort of this all or nothing model, right? >> But now we know, the bad guys are going to get in, right? It's only a function of time, right? >> Right, and I think you see it with the Target breech, the Neiman Marcus breech, the Google breech, right? The list sort of goes on, right? It's like, Equifax, right? It's a bad idea to assume they never get in. (laughing) >> If you assume they get in, so then, if you know the bad guys are going to get in, you got to bake that security in all different levels of your applications, your data, all over the place. >> Exactly. >> So what are some of the things you guys covered in the session? >> So I think the core of it is really saying how do we get to a point where we don't trust our network, where we assume the attacker will get on the network and then what? How do you design around that assumption, right? And what you really have to do is push identity everywhere, right? So every application has to say, I'm a web server and I'm connecting to a database, and is this allowed, right? Is a web server allowed to talk to the database? And that's really the crux of what Google calls Beyond Crop, what other people call sort of zero trust networking, is this idea of identity based where I'm saying it's not IP one talking to IP two, it's web server talking to database. >> Right, right, because then you've got all the role and rules and everything associated at that identity level? >> Bingo, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly, and I think what's made that very hard historically is when we say, what do you have at the network? You have IPs and ports. So how do we get to a point where we know one thing is a web server and one thing's a database, right? >> Right. >> And I think the crux of the challenge there, is kind of three pieces, right? You need application identity. You have to say this is a web server, this is a database. You need to distribute certificates to them and say, you get a certificate that says you're a web server, you get a certificate that says you're a database and you have to enforce that access, right? So everyone can't just randomly talk to each other. >> Right, well then what about context too, right? Because context is another piece that maybe somebody takes advantage of and has access to the identity but is using it in way or there's an interaction that's kind of atypical to what's expected behavior, it just doesn't make sense. So context really matters quite a bit as well. >> Yeah, you're super, super right and I think this is where it gets into not only do we need to assign identity to the applications but how do we tie that back into sort of rich access controls of who's allowed to do what, audit trails of, okay it seems odd, this web server that never connects to this database suddenly out of the blue doing so, why? >> Right, right. >> And do we need to react to it? Do we need to change the rule? Do we need to investigate what's going on? >> Right. >> But you're right. It's like, that context is important of what's expected versus what's unexpected. >> Right, then you have this other X factor called shared infrastructure and hybrid cloud and I've got apps running on AWS, I've got apps running at Google, I've got apps running at Microsoft, I got apps running in the database, I've got some dev here, I've got some prod here. You know that adds another little X factor to the zero trust. (laughing) >> Yeah, I think I aptly heard it called once, we have a service mess on our hands, right? (laughing) >> Right, right. >> We have this stuff so sort of sprawled everywhere now, how do we wrangle it? How do we get our hands around it? And so as much as I think service mess is a play on sort of the language, I think this is where that emerging category of service mesh does make sense. >> Right. >> It's really looking at that and saying, okay, I'm going to have stuff in private cloud, public cloud, maybe multiple public cloud providers, how do I treat all of that in a uniform way? I want to know what's running where. I want to have rules around who can talk to who. >> Right. >> And that's a big focus for us with Console, in terms of, how do we have a consistent way of knowing what's running where a consistent set of rules around who can talk to who. >> Right. >> And do it across all these hybrid environments, right? >> Right, right, but wait, don't buy it yet, there's more. (laughing) Because then I've got all the APIs right? So now you've got all this application integration, many of which are with cloud based applications. So now you've got that complexity and you're pulling all these bits and connections from different infrastructures, different applications, some in house, some outside, so how do you bring some organization to that madness? >> No, that's a super good question. If you ever want to role change, take a look at our marketing department, you've got this down. (laughing) You know, I would say what it comes down to a heterogeneity is going to be fundamental, right? You're going to have folks that are going to operate different tools, different technologies for whatever reasons, right? Might be a historical choice, might be just they have better relations with a particular vendor. So our view has been, how do you inter op with all these things? Part of it is focus on open source. Part of it is focus on API driven. Part of it is focused on you have to do API integrations with all these systems because you're never going to get sort of the end user to standardize everything on a single platform. >> Right, right. It's funny, we were at a show talking about RPA, robotic process automation, and they, they treat those processes as employees in the fact that they give them identities. >> Right. >> So they can manage them. You hire them, you turn 'em on, they work for you for a while and then you might want to turn them off after they're done whatever doing, that you've put them in place for. But literally they were treating them as an employee. >> Right. >> Treating them with like an employee lead identity that they could have all the assigned rules and restrictions to then let the RPA do what it was supposed to do. It's like interesting concept. >> Yeah, and I think it mirrors I think what we see in a lot of different spaces which is what we were maybe managing before was the sort of very physical thing. Maybe it was we called it Robot 1234, right? Or in the same way we might say, this is server at IP 1234. >> Right. >> On our network. And so we're managing this really physical unit, whether it's an IP, a machine, a serial number. How do we take up the level of abstraction and instead say, you know actually all of these machines, whether IP one, IP two, IP three, they're a web server and whether it's robots one, two or three, they're a door attach, right? >> Right, right. >> And so now we start talking about identity and it gives us this more powerful abstraction to sort of talk about these underlying bits. >> Right. >> And I think it sort of follows the history of everything, right? Which is like how do we add new layers of abstraction that let us manage the complexity that we have? >> Right, right, so it's interesting right in Ray Kurzweil's keynote earlier today, hopefully you saw that, he talked about, basically exponential curves and that's really what we're facing so the amount of data, the amount of complexity is only going to increase dramatically. We're trying to virtualize so much of this and abstract it away but then that adds a different layer of management. At the same time, you're going to have a lot more horsepower to work with on the compute side, so is it kind of like the old Wintel, I got a faster PC, it's getting eaten up by more windows? I mean, do you see the automation being able to keep up with kind of the increasing layers of abstraction? >> Yeah, I mean I think there's a grain of that. Are we losing, just because we're getting access to more resources are we using it more efficiently? I think there's some fairness in, with each layer of abstraction we're sort of introduction additional performance cost, sort of to reduce that, but I think overall what we might be doing is increasing the amount of compute tenfold, but adding a 5% additional management fee, so it's still, I think it's still net and net we're able to do much more productive work, go to much bigger scale but only if you have the right abstractions, right? And I think that's where this kind of stuff comes in is, okay great, I'm going to have 10 times as many machines, how do I deal with the fact that my current security model barely works at my current scale? How do I go to 10x the scale? Or if I'm pointing and clicking to provision a machine, how does that work when I'm going to manage a thousand machines, right? >> Yeah. >> You have to bring in additional tooling and automation and sort of think about it at the next higher level. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's all, all part of this process of adopting cloud and sort of getting that leverage. >> It's so interesting, just the whole scale discussion because at the end of the day, right, scale wins and there's a great interview with James Hamilton from AWS, and it's old, but he's talking about kind of scale and he talks about how many server that were sold in this whatever calendar year it was, versus how many mobile phones were sold and it's many ores of magnitude different and the fact that he's thinking in terms of these types of scales as opposed to, you know, which was a big number in the service sales side, but really the scale challenge introduced by these giant clouds and Facebook and the like really changed the game fundamentally in how do you manage these things. >> Totally, totally and I think that's been our view at HashiCorp, is that when you talk about about kinds of the tidal shift of infrastructure from on premise, relatively static VMware centric to AWS, plus Azure, plus Google, plus VMware, it's not just a change of, okay it's of one server here to one server there. It's like going from one server here to 50 servers that I'm changing at every other day rather than every other year, right? >> Right, right. >> And so it's this sort of order of magnitude of scale but also an order of magnitude in terms of sort of the rate of change as well. >> Right, right. >> And I think that puts downward pressure on how do I provision? How do I secure? How do I deploy applications? How do I secure all of this stuff, right? >> Right. >> I think ever layer of the infrastructure gets hit by this change. >> Right, right, alright so you're a smart guy. You're always looking forward. What are some of the things you're working on down the road? Big challenges that you're looking forward to tackling? >> Oh, okay, that's fun. I mean I think the biggest challenge is how do we get this stuff to be simpler for people to use? Because I think what we're going through is you get this sort of see-saw effect, right? Which is okay, we're getting access to all this new hardware, all this new compute, all these new APIs, but it's not getting simpler, right? >> Right, right. >> It's getting exponentially more complicated. >> Right, right. >> And so I think part of it is how do we go back to sort of looking at what's the core of drivers here? It's like, okay well we want to make it easier for people to deliver and deploy their applications, let's go back to sort of, in some sense, the drawing board, say how do we abstract all of these new goodies that we've been given but make it consumable and easy to learn? Because otherwise, you know, what's the point? It's like, here's a catalog of 50,000 things and no one knows how to use any of it. >> Right, right, right. (laughing) Yeah it's funny, I'm waiting for that next abstraction for AWS, instead of the big giant slide that Andy shows every year. (laughing) It's just that I just want to plug in and you figure out. >> Right. >> What connects on the backend. I can't even hardly read that stuff-- >> Maybe AI will save us. >> Let's hope so. Alright Armon, well thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day and sitting down with us. >> My pleasure, thanks so much, Jeff. >> Alright, he's Armon, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at PagerDuty Summit in downtown San Francisco, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. We are live in Austin, Texas for CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, not to be confused with CUBE, 'cause we don't have a CUBE Con yet, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Next is Armon Dadgar who is the founder and CTO of HashiCorp. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming on. So we interviewed your partner in crime Mitchell years ago, and we were riffing in our studio in Palo Alto, and essentially we laid out microsurfaces and all the stuff that's being worked on today. So, congratulations, you guys were right in your bet? >> It's funny to see how the reaction has changed over the last few years. Back then it used to be, we'd go in and it's like, people are like, did you catch a load of those crazy people who came in and talked about microsurfaces, and immutable, and cloud? It's like, get out of here. And now it's funny to be here at KubeCon, and it's like-- >> Well it was fun days back then, it was the purest in DevOps, and I say purest, I mean people who were really cutting their teeth into the new methodology, the new way to develop, the new way to kind of roll out scale, a lot of the challenges involved. Certainly, now it's gone mainstream. >> Armon: Yeah. >> You're seeing no doubt about it, I just came back from re:Invent, from AWS, Lambda, Server List. You got application developers that just don't want to deal with any infrastructure. That's infrastructure as code in the DevOps ethos, and then you got a lot of people in the infrastructure plumbing, and App plumbing world, who actually care about all this stuff, provisioning. So, how are you guys fitting into the new landscape? You guys riding along? Were you guys the first ones paddling out to these waves? How do you guys at HashiCorp look at all this growth? >> So the way we think about it is, I think there's a lot of market confusion right now, just because there's so much happening, and I mean, even just being here it's like, almost overwhelming to just like understand what exactly is this market landscape evolving to? And the way we're thinking about it is, there's really these four discrete layers with the four different people that are involved in tech, right? We have, on one side, we have our IT operators that are just trying to get a handle around, how do I provision things in Amazon, and now I have business groups coming and saying, okay I want to provision in Google, cloud and Azure. How do I really do that in way that I don't lose my sanity? You have your security people who are saying, I've lost my network perimeter, now what? Like, how do I think about secret management, and app identity, and this brave new world of cloud. You have your app developers who are like, I don't care about any of that, just give me a platform where I can push deploy and out the gate it goes, and you deal with it. And then you have the folks that are kind of making it all kind of plug together and work, the networking backbone, who is saying okay, before it was F5 and Juniper and Cisco. What does it mean for me as I'm going cloud? So, the way we're sorting of seeing ourself involved in all of this is, how do we help operators sort of get a handle around the provisioning side, with things like Terraform? How do we help the security folks with tools like Volt? How do we complement things like Kubernetes at the runtime layer, or provide our solution with Nomad, and then on the networking side, how do we provide a consistent service discovery experience with Consul? >> So you guys are really just now just kind of riding in with everybody else, kind of welcoming everybody to the party, if you will. (Armon laughs) What's the big surprise for you as you guys, you know it's not new to you guys, but as you see it evolving, what's jumping out at you? I mean, we're hearing service mesh, pluggable architectures. What are some of the things that's popping out of the woodwork that you're excited about? >> Honestly, the thing that I'm excited about is the excitement about infrastructure, right? I mean, when we started four, five years ago, it was an ice cold market. You'd go and talk to people, like, let's talking about how you're doing provisioning, or your deployment, or how your developers push things, and people were like, do we really have to? Like, let me get a coffee. And now it's like the opposite. It's like people are so excited to talk about the infrastructure, the bits and bytes of it, and I think that for us is probably the most exciting thing. So, whether you come here, and it's like the vibe is electric, right? Like, you guys can attest to it. It's crazy to see the growth of it, and so what's exciting for us is now these conversations are being lit up all across industry. >> Yeah. >> So whether you're talking about hey, how do I provision a thing on cloud, to what's a scheduler and how does that help me, there is this tremendous interest in it. >> Yeah, Armon, take us inside. You talked about, you know, it used to be kind of, we would be talking, is infrastructure boring? What is that change that's happening in customers? Has it just reached a certain maturity level, that now the business, they need to move faster, and therefore I need to adopt these kinds of architectures? What are you seeing when you're talking to customers? >> Yeah, I think that, the sort of, we heard that, the sort of, the line a few times is it's becoming boring, but I think what, and sometimes that's the goal, right? All of these tools, all of infrastructure is plumbing, at the end of the day, right? At the end of the day, the applications of the end users is really what should be, sort of, the exciting bit. And so, it's our responsibility, sort of, as the vendors here in the community, working on the infrastructure, to make the stuff boring. And I think, in that case, what we really mean is that it should be so reliable, so well documented, so scalable that it's brain dead to operate these things. And I think, step one is, let's get people excited about what's the state of the possible, what's the art of the possible in terms of, what do I get in terms of business agility of adopting stuff? Once people start adopting it, let's make it boring for them. Let's make them sure they don't regret it, and that they actually see those benefits. >> Well, it's reliable too. Boring equals reliability. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Yeah, it's interesting. When you walk through the provision, secure, connect, and run, it reminded me a little bit of Chen talking in the Keynote this morning about kind of the stack they see Kubernetes playing. >> Armon: Totally. >> You know, there's some people who will probably look, well, HashiCorp, you guys, you have a platform. You've got some of these projects. Is that, what's compatible, what's replaceable? What's the connection between what you are doing and what's happening in this space? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, think a lot of people are like "Is it odd for HashiCorp to be here?" And I think it goes back to our lens on this market, Which is. we want to provide tools that are sort of discrete in each of these categories and we fully know that customers are not going to go all in on HashiCorp and say, I want all four layers, right? A lot of our customers are Kubernetes users. And so, for us the mission is, okay great, how do we make sure Terraform plays nice with Kubernetes? How do we make sure Vault plays nice? So I actually have a session in about an hour and a half here, talking about Vault integration with Kubernetes. And then, we have a developer advocate talking about using Console with Kubernetes as well. So for us, it's really a play nice story. How do we make all of these work together. >> It's a rising-tide-that-floats-all-boats market, I mean this is what's happening. You guys are actors in the ecosystem. It's not a land grab. No-one can own the stack. That's the whole point of this ecosystem, isn't it? >> It's so big, right, this market that we are talking about is so enormous. It's every organization writing software. (laughing) >> All right, give us the update on HashiCorp. What's going on, what's the latest and greatest you guys are out starting? We interviewed you guys about, I think three years ago, maybe four. Can't even remember now at this point. It seems like a blur. >> Yeah, I mean, so two months ago was our big HashiCom for our user com friends. And for us, the focus has really been saying okay, we've got our initial set of open-source tools out on the market in 2015. And we said okay, lets take a pause. There's already so many tools, lets just focus on how do we make the practitioners successful with each of these things and really go deep on all of them. And so, with things like Terraform, we've been partnering with all the various cloud providers, right, to say how do we have first class support for Azure, and Google Cloud and Amazon and make sure that you know, as you're adopting these clouds, Terraform meet you there. And then with things like Vault it's how do we integrate with every platform companies want to be on. So if you're using Kubernetes, how do we make sure Vault meets you there and integrates? So, for us that's been the focus, is staying sort of focused on the six core tools, and saying, "How do we make sure "they're staying up to date as technology moves?" And sort of deepening them. >> Yeah, because your users are going to be leveraging a lot of the new stuff. They're going to be, Kubernetes has certainly been great. What's your take on Kubernetes, if you can just take a minute to just, I mean, not new to this notion of runtime and orchestration. We talked about it with Mitchell in our session years ago, we didn't actually say Kubernetes, it wasn't around then, but we talked about the middleware of the cloud. That was our discussion, and that was essentially called Pass at that time, but now, no one talks about Pass any more, it's all kind of one. >> Right, right. >> What's your take on Kubernetes? How do you feel about it? What is it to you? >> Right, yeah, I think that's, so I think, twofold: I think what's exciting for me about it is, it reminds me in some sense like what Docker did for the industry, which, if we went to sort of the pre-Docker world nobody talked about immutable artifact based deploys. It was like this esoteric thing and then all of a sudden over night Docker made it popular. Whereas like, oh yeah, of course everything should be immutable and artifact based. And then when you look at what Kubernetes has done, it's built on that momentum to say, okay, that was step one. Step two is to say, you really should think about all your machines as a sort of shared pool of resources and move the abstraction up to the application to the service and think about, I'm deploying a service, I'm not deploying a set of VMs. And so it's been this sort of tidal shift in how IT thinks about deploying and delivering in application. It actually should be focused on the service. Focus on sort of abstracting away the machine, and that's super exciting. >> And what do you think the benefits will be with the impact of the marketplace? Faster development, I mean, what's some of the impact that you see coming out of this to go to the next level? >> Yeah, I mean the impact for me is really saying, when we really look at these approaches, in some sense they are not new, if you look at what Google's been doing since the early 2000s with Board, what Amazon's been doing, what Facebook's been doing internally. These big tech companies have showed if you are able to move up the abstraction and provide this higher level of utility to developers, you can support tens of thousands of services, innovate much more quickly, and for a while, that was sort of trapped in these big tech companies. And I think what Kubernetes is really doing is bringing that to everybody else and saying, actually adopting the same strategy lets you have that, right? >> Yeah, its a maturation of open source of this generation. You look at what Lyft, Uber are doing. Look at the Open Tracing for instance, pretty interesting stuff, because I mean they had to build their own stuff. >> Armon: Right. >> At scale, massive scale. Not like, you know, hundreds of thousands of services, millions of transactions a second. >> Armon: Right. >> I mean, that's daunting. >> That's daunting. >> Okay, so your take on open source. Okay, because now we're seeing a new generation of developers coming online. I've been saying it's been, a renaissance is coming. More of an artisan, a craft coming back to craftsmanship of coding. Not like UX Design side, become a craft in code. So you got a new, younger generation coming up. They don't even know what a load balancer is. >> Right. But they're happy not to deal with that as you said. And then you've got open source growing exponentially. Jim Zemlin at the Linux Foundation is saying 10% of the IP is going to be unique to the company. The rest is going to be that sandwich of open source. That's exponential growth. >> Right. >> You get exponential growth, new wave of software developers. You're a young gun, what's your view of the future? >> I mean, its funny, because it's like that first derivative is going exponential. The second derivative is going exponential. You know, I think we're going to see more and more innovation at the, ultimately what it's really about is delivering at the end application layer, right? Like, we're all here to be plumbing, right, and so the better we can be at being plumbing, the better the application developers can be at delivering innovation there. And so, I totally agree that the trend is going to go 90/10. And I think that was partly one of the reasons we started HashiCorp, because we'd look around and we're like it's insane that you have 30 to 50% of these companies doing platform engineering that's completely undifferentiated from anyone else. It's like you're deploying on the same vSphere VM as your competitor but you're rebuilding the whole platform. It's crazy, it's like you should have used an open source tool and focused on the application and not how to boot a vSphere into it. >> And the impact cost and time. >> Armon, one of the things we talk about, the only thing constant in this industry is that the pace of change keeps increasing. How are you dealing internally? How are customers doing? I think back two years, a year and a half ago I talked to a guy who was like, "Oh, Vagrant is like my favorite thing, "I've been using it ever." Now I talk to lots of customers that are, Vault is critical to their stacks that they're doing. HashiCorp looks very different than they did two years ago. How's that pace of change happening internally and with customers? >> Totally, and I think part of what we've done as actually since 2015 we haven't really introduced brand new products because our feeling is that it's becoming so confusing for the end users to really navigate this landscape. So, in 2015 we thought the landscape was confusing. Today it's multiplied by 100 or 1,000. >> We were at Amazon last week, we understand. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think honestly I think that is, when you look around here I think that's one of the challenges we're facing as an industry, is I go and meet with customers who are like, "Every time I refresh Hacker News, "there's 50 new things I need to go evaluate." It's like I don't know where to even begin. And its like, as a vendor I have a hard time keeping up with space, you know. I empathize with the end user who, it's not their full time job to do that. So, our goal has been to say how do we better distill at least the HashiCorp universe in terms of hey, here's how our pieces fit together and here's how we relate to everything else in the ecosystem, and kind of give our end users a map of okay, what tools play nice, how do these things sort of work together. But I think as a bigger industry we have a bit of an issue around the sheer amount of sort of innovation. How do we curate that and really make it more accessible? >> Armon, I've got to ask you a personal question. Obviously you guys are entrepreneurs doing a great job. Been following you guys, congratulations by the way. What are you most proud of as you look back and what do you wish you could do over? If you could get a mulligan and say "Okay, I want to do that differently." >> How much time do we have by the way? (laughing) >> 10 seconds, I'm going to ask you the parachute question next, go ahead. >> You know, I think the thing we're most proud of might be Terraform. I think it's fun to see sort of the level of ubiquity and the standardization that is taking place around it. Ah, the thing I wish we could take back is you know, probably our Otto project. I think the scope was so big for that thing and I think our eyes were probably a little wider than they should have been on that one. So I wish we had not committed to that one. >> You reign it in, catch the mistakes early. Okay, final question for you. You're a large customer and the plane is going down, you have 10 seconds to pick a parachute. Amazon, Azure or Google. Which one do you grab? >> Ooh. >> Go. >> You know, probably Amazon. No one ever gets fired for choosing Amazon. >> All right well Jeff Frick on our CUBE team said, "I'd take all three and call it Multi Cloud." >> That's the right answer. Armon, thanks for coming on appreciate it. Congratulations on your success at HashiCorp. >> My pleasure, thanks so much for having me. >> Got HashiCorp here on theCUBE, CTO and co-founder on theCUBE, Riding The Wave, CloudNative, Kupernetes, lot of great stuff happening. Microservices and containers. It's theCUBE doing our part here at KubeCon. We'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

(chill electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startups Showcase, AI and machine learning, the top startups building generative AI on AWS. This is the season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talk about AI and machine learning. Can't believe it's three years and season one. I'm your host, John Furrier. Got a great guest today, we're joined by Joseph Nelson, the co-founder and CEO of Roboflow, doing some cutting edge stuff around computer vision and really at the front end of this massive wave coming around, large language models, computer vision. The next gen AI is here, and it's just getting started. We haven't even scratched a service. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thanks for having me. >> So you got to love the large language model, foundation models, really educating the mainstream world. ChatGPT has got everyone in the frenzy. This is educating the world around this next gen AI capabilities, enterprise, image and video data, all a big part of it. I mean the edge of the network, Mobile World Conference is happening right now, this month, and it's just ending up, it's just continue to explode. Video is huge. So take us through the company, do a quick explanation of what you guys are doing, when you were founded. Talk about what the company's mission is, and what's your North Star, why do you exist? >> Yeah, Roboflow exists to really kind of make the world programmable. I like to say make the world be read and write access. And our North Star is enabling developers, predominantly, to build that future. If you look around, anything that you see will have software related to it, and can kind of be turned into software. The limiting reactant though, is how to enable computers and machines to understand things as well as people can. And in a lot of ways, computer vision is that missing element that enables anything that you see to become software. So in the virtue of, if software is eating the world, computer vision kind of makes the aperture infinitely wide. It's something that I kind of like, the way I like to frame it. And the capabilities are there, the open source models are there, the amount of data is there, the computer capabilities are only improving annually, but there's a pretty big dearth of tooling, and an early but promising sign of the explosion of use cases, models, and data sets that companies, developers, hobbyists alike will need to bring these capabilities to bear. So Roboflow is in the game of building the community around that capability, building the use cases that allow developers and enterprises to use computer vision, and providing the tooling for companies and developers to be able to add computer vision, create better data sets, and deploy to production, quickly, easily, safely, invaluably. >> You know, Joseph, the word in production is actually real now. You're seeing a lot more people doing in production activities. That's a real hot one and usually it's slower, but it's gone faster, and I think that's going to be more the same. And I think the parallel between what we're seeing on the large language models coming into computer vision, and as you mentioned, video's data, right? I mean we're doing video right now, we're transcribing it into a transcript, linking up to your linguistics, times and the timestamp, I mean everything's data and that really kind of feeds. So this connection between what we're seeing, the large language and computer vision are coming together kind of cousins, brothers. I mean, how would you compare, how would you explain to someone, because everyone's like on this wave of watching people bang out their homework assignments, and you know, write some hacks on code with some of the open AI technologies, there is a corollary directly related to to the vision side. Can you explain? >> Yeah, the rise of large language models are showing what's possible, especially with text, and I think increasingly will get multimodal as the images and video become ingested. Though there's kind of this still core missing element of basically like understanding. So the rise of large language models kind of create this new area of generative AI, and generative AI in the context of computer vision is a lot of, you know, creating video and image assets and content. There's also this whole surface area to understanding what's already created. Basically digitizing physical, real world things. I mean the Metaverse can't be built if we don't know how to mirror or create or identify the objects that we want to interact with in our everyday lives. And where computer vision comes to play in, especially what we've seen at Roboflow is, you know, a little over a hundred thousand developers now have built with our tools. That's to the tune of a hundred million labeled open source images, over 10,000 pre-trained models. And they've kind of showcased to us all of the ways that computer vision is impacting and bringing the world to life. And these are things that, you know, even before large language models and generative AI, you had pretty impressive capabilities, and when you add the two together, it actually unlocks these kind of new capabilities. So for example, you know, one of our users actually powers the broadcast feeds at Wimbledon. So here we're talking about video, we're streaming, we're doing things live, we've got folks that are cropping and making sure we look good, and audio/visual all plugged in correctly. When you broadcast Wimbledon, you'll notice that the camera controllers need to do things like track the ball, which is moving at extremely high speeds and zoom crop, pan tilt, as well as determine if the ball bounced in or out. The very controversial but critical key to a lot of tennis matches. And a lot of that has been historically done with the trained, but fallible human eye and computer vision is, you know, well suited for this task to say, how do we track, pan, tilt, zoom, and see, track the tennis ball in real time, run at 30 plus frames per second, and do it all on the edge. And those are capabilities that, you know, were kind of like science fiction, maybe even a decade ago, and certainly five years ago. Now the interesting thing, is that with the advent of of generative AI, you can start to do things like create your own training data sets, or kind of create logic around once you have this visual input. And teams at Tesla have actually been speaking about, of course the autopilot team's focused on doing vision tasks, but they've combined large language models to add reasoning and logic. So given that you see, let's say the tennis ball, what do you want to do? And being able to combine the capabilities of what LLM's represent, which is really a lot of basically, core human reasoning and logic, with computer vision for the inputs of what's possible, creates these new capabilities, let alone multimodality, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. >> Yeah, and it's really, I mean it's almost intoxicating. It's amazing that this is so capable because the cloud scales here, you got the edge developing, you can decouple compute power, and let Moore's law and all the new silicone and the processors and the GPUs do their thing, and you got open source booming. You're kind of getting at this next segment I wanted to get into, which is the, how people should be thinking about these advances of the computer vision. So this is now a next wave, it's here. I mean I'd love to have that for baseball because I'm always like, "Oh, it should have been a strike." I'm sure that's going to be coming soon, but what is the computer vision capable of doing today? I guess that's my first question. You hit some of it, unpack that a little bit. What does general AI mean in computer vision? What's the new thing? Because there are old technology's been around, proprietary, bolted onto hardware, but hardware advances at a different pace, but now you got new capabilities, generative AI for vision, what does that mean? >> Yeah, so computer vision, you know, at its core is basically enabling machines, computers, to understand, process, and act on visual data as effective or more effective than people can. Traditionally this has been, you know, task types like classification, which you know, identifying if a given image belongs in a certain category of goods on maybe a retail site, is the shoes or is it clothing? Or object detection, which is, you know, creating bounding boxes, which allows you to do things like count how many things are present, or maybe measure the speed of something, or trigger an alert when something becomes visible in frame that wasn't previously visible in frame, or instant segmentation where you're creating pixel wise segmentations for both instance and semantic segmentation, where you often see these kind of beautiful visuals of the polygon surrounding objects that you see. Then you have key point detection, which is where you see, you know, athletes, and each of their joints are kind of outlined is another more traditional type problem in signal processing and computer vision. With generative AI, you kind of get a whole new class of problem types that are opened up. So in a lot of ways I think about generative AI in computer vision as some of the, you know, problems that you aimed to tackle, might still be better suited for one of the previous task types we were discussing. Some of those problem types may be better suited for using a generative technique, and some are problem types that just previously wouldn't have been possible absent generative AI. And so if you make that kind of Venn diagram in your head, you can think about, okay, you know, visual question answering is a task type where if I give you an image and I say, you know, "How many people are in this image?" We could either build an object detection model that might count all those people, or maybe a visual question answering system would sufficiently answer this type of problem. Let alone generative AI being able to create new training data for old systems. And that's something that we've seen be an increasingly prominent use case for our users, as much as things that we advise our customers and the community writ large to take advantage of. So ultimately those are kind of the traditional task types. I can give you some insight, maybe, into how I think about what's possible today, or five years or ten years as you sort go back. >> Yes, definitely. Let's get into that vision. >> So I kind of think about the types of use cases in terms of what's possible. If you just imagine a very simple bell curve, your normal distribution, for the longest time, the types of things that are in the center of that bell curve are identifying objects that are very common or common objects in context. Microsoft published the COCO Dataset in 2014 of common objects and contexts, of hundreds of thousands of images of chairs, forks, food, person, these sorts of things. And you know, the challenge of the day had always been, how do you identify just those 80 objects? So if we think about the bell curve, that'd be maybe the like dead center of the curve, where there's a lot of those objects present, and it's a very common thing that needs to be identified. But it's a very, very, very small sliver of the distribution. Now if you go out to the way long tail, let's go like deep into the tail of this imagined visual normal distribution, you're going to have a problem like one of our customers, Rivian, in tandem with AWS, is tackling, to do visual quality assurance and manufacturing in production processes. Now only Rivian knows what a Rivian is supposed to look like. Only they know the imagery of what their goods that are going to be produced are. And then between those long tails of proprietary data of highly specific things that need to be understood, in the center of the curve, you have a whole kind of messy middle, type of problems I like to say. The way I think about computer vision advancing, is it's basically you have larger and larger and more capable models that eat from the center out, right? So if you have a model that, you know, understands the 80 classes in COCO, well, pretty soon you have advances like Clip, which was trained on 400 million image text pairs, and has a greater understanding of a wider array of objects than just 80 classes in context. And over time you'll get more and more of these larger models that kind of eat outwards from that center of the distribution. And so the question becomes for companies, when can you rely on maybe a model that just already exists? How do you use your data to get what may be capable off the shelf, so to speak, into something that is usable for you? Or, if you're in those long tails and you have proprietary data, how do you take advantage of the greatest asset you have, which is observed visual information that you want to put to work for your customers, and you're kind of living in the long tails, and you need to adapt state of the art for your capabilities. So my mental model for like how computer vision advances is you have that bell curve, and you have increasingly powerful models that eat outward. And multimodality has a role to play in that, larger models have a role to play in that, more compute, more data generally has a role to play in that. But it will be a messy and I think long condition. >> Well, the thing I want to get, first of all, it's great, great mental model, I appreciate that, 'cause I think that makes a lot of sense. The question is, it seems now more than ever, with the scale and compute that's available, that not only can you eat out to the middle in your example, but there's other models you can integrate with. In the past there was siloed, static, almost bespoke. Now you're looking at larger models eating into the bell curve, as you said, but also integrating in with other stuff. So this seems to be part of that interaction. How does, first of all, is that really happening? Is that true? And then two, what does that mean for companies who want to take advantage of this? Because the old model was operational, you know? I have my cameras, they're watching stuff, whatever, and like now you're in this more of a, distributed computing, computer science mindset, not, you know, put the camera on the wall kind of- I'm oversimplifying, but you know what I'm saying. What's your take on that? >> Well, to the first point of, how are these advances happening? What I was kind of describing was, you know, almost uni-dimensional in that you have like, you're only thinking about vision, but the rise of generative techniques and multi-modality, like Clip is a multi-modal model, it has 400 million image text pairs. That will advance the generalizability at a faster rate than just treating everything as only vision. And that's kind of where LLMs and vision will intersect in a really nice and powerful way. Now in terms of like companies, how should they be thinking about taking advantage of these trends? The biggest thing that, and I think it's different, obviously, on the size of business, if you're an enterprise versus a startup. The biggest thing that I think if you're an enterprise, and you have an established scaled business model that is working for your customers, the question becomes, how do you take advantage of that established data moat, potentially, resource moats, and certainly, of course, establish a way of providing value to an end user. So for example, one of our customers, Walmart, has the advantage of one of the largest inventory and stock of any company in the world. And they also of course have substantial visual data, both from like their online catalogs, or understanding what's in stock or out of stock, or understanding, you know, the quality of things that they're going from the start of their supply chain to making it inside stores, for delivery of fulfillments. All these are are visual challenges. Now they already have a substantial trove of useful imagery to understand and teach and train large models to understand each of the individual SKUs and products that are in their stores. And so if I'm a Walmart, what I'm thinking is, how do I make sure that my petabytes of visual information is utilized in a way where I capture the proprietary benefit of the models that I can train to do tasks like, what item was this? Or maybe I'm going to create AmazonGo-like technology, or maybe I'm going to build like delivery robots, or I want to automatically know what's in and out of stock from visual input fees that I have across my in-store traffic. And that becomes the question and flavor of the day for enterprises. I've got this large amount of data, I've got an established way that I can provide more value to my own customers. How do I ensure I take advantage of the data advantage I'm already sitting on? If you're a startup, I think it's a pretty different question, and I'm happy to talk about. >> Yeah, what's startup angle on this? Because you know, they're going to want to take advantage. It's like cloud startups, cloud native startups, they were born in the cloud, they never had an IT department. So if you're a startup, is there a similar role here? And if I'm a computer vision startup, what's that mean? So can you share your your take on that, because there'll be a lot of people starting up from this. >> So the startup on the opposite advantage and disadvantage, right? Like a startup doesn't have an proven way of delivering repeatable value in the same way that a scaled enterprise does. But it does have the nimbleness to identify and take advantage of techniques that you can start from a blank slate. And I think the thing that startups need to be wary of in the generative AI enlarged language model, in multimodal world, is building what I like to call, kind of like sandcastles. A sandcastle is maybe a business model or a capability that's built on top of an assumption that is going to be pretty quickly wiped away by improving underlying model technology. So almost like if you imagine like the ocean, the waves are coming in, and they're going to wipe away your progress. You don't want to be in the position of building sandcastle business where, you don't want to bet on the fact that models aren't going to get good enough to solve the task type that you might be solving. In other words, don't take a screenshot of what's capable today. Assume that what's capable today is only going to continue to become possible. And so for a startup, what you can do, that like enterprises are quite comparatively less good at, is embedding these capabilities deeply within your products and delivering maybe a vertical based experience, where AI kind of exists in the background. >> Yeah. >> And we might not think of companies as, you know, even AI companies, it's just so embedded in the experience they provide, but that's like the vertical application example of taking AI and making it be immediately usable. Or, of course there's tons of picks and shovels businesses to be built like Roboflow, where you're enabling these enterprises to take advantage of something that they have, whether that's their data sets, their computes, or their intellect. >> Okay, so if I hear that right, by the way, I love, that's horizontally scalable, that's the large language models, go up and build them the apps, hence your developer focus. I'm sure that's probably the reason that the tsunami of developer's action. So you're saying picks and shovels tools, don't try to replicate the platform of what could be the platform. Oh, go to a VC, I'm going to build a platform. No, no, no, no, those are going to get wiped away by the large language models. Is there one large language model that will rule the world, or do you see many coming? >> Yeah, so to be clear, I think there will be useful platforms. I just think a lot of people think that they're building, let's say, you know, if we put this in the cloud context, you're building a specific type of EC2 instance. Well, it turns out that Amazon can offer that type of EC2 instance, and immediately distribute it to all of their customers. So you don't want to be in the position of just providing something that actually ends up looking like a feature, which in the context of AI, might be like a small incremental improvement on the model. If that's all you're doing, you're a sandcastle business. Now there's a lot of platform businesses that need to be built that enable businesses to get to value and do things like, how do I monitor my models? How do I create better models with my given data sets? How do I ensure that my models are doing what I want them to do? How do I find the right models to use? There's all these sorts of platform wide problems that certainly exist for businesses. I just think a lot of startups that I'm seeing right now are making the mistake of assuming the advances we're seeing are not going to accelerate or even get better. >> So if I'm a customer, if I'm a company, say I'm a startup or an enterprise, either one, same question. And I want to stand up, and I have developers working on stuff, I want to start standing up an environment to start doing stuff. Is that a service provider? Is that a managed service? Is that you guys? So how do you guys fit into your customers leaning in? Is it just for developers? Are you targeting with a specific like managed service? What's the product consumption? How do you talk to customers when they come to you? >> The thing that we do is enable, we give developers superpowers to build automated inventory tracking, self-checkout systems, identify if this image is malignant cancer or benign cancer, ensure that these products that I've produced are correct. Make sure that that the defect that might exist on this electric vehicle makes its way back for review. All these sorts of problems are immediately able to be solved and tackled. In terms of the managed services element, we have solutions as integrators that will often build on top of our tools, or we'll have companies that look to us for guidance, but ultimately the company is in control of developing and building and creating these capabilities in house. I really think the distinction is maybe less around managed service and tool, and more around ownership in the era of AI. So for example, if I'm using a managed service, in that managed service, part of their benefit is that they are learning across their customer sets, then it's a very different relationship than using a managed service where I'm developing some amount of proprietary advantages for my data sets. And I think that's a really important thing that companies are becoming attuned to, just the value of the data that they have. And so that's what we do. We tell companies that you have this proprietary, immense treasure trove of data, use that to your advantage, and think about us more like a set of tools that enable you to get value from that capability. You know, the HashiCorp's and GitLab's of the world have proven like what these businesses look like at scale. >> And you're targeting developers. When you go into a company, do you target developers with freemium, is there a paid service? Talk about the business model real quick. >> Sure, yeah. The tools are free to use and get started. When someone signs up for Roboflow, they may elect to make their work open source, in which case we're able to provide even more generous usage limits to basically move the computer vision community forward. If you elect to make your data private, you can use our hosted data set managing, data set training, model deployment, annotation tooling up to some limits. And then usually when someone validates that what they're doing gets them value, they purchase a subscription license to be able to scale up those capabilities. So like most developer centric products, it's free to get started, free to prove, free to poke around, develop what you think is possible. And then once you're getting to value, then we're able to capture the commercial upside in the value that's being provided. >> Love the business model. It's right in line with where the market is. There's kind of no standards bodies these days. The developers are the ones who are deciding kind of what the standards are by their adoption. I think making that easy for developers to get value as the model open sources continuing to grow, you can see more of that. Great perspective Joseph, thanks for sharing that. Put a plug in for the company. What are you guys doing right now? Where are you in your growth? What are you looking for? How should people engage? Give the quick commercial for the company. >> So as I mentioned, Roboflow is I think one of the largest, if not the largest collections of computer vision models and data sets that are open source, available on the web today, and have a private set of tools that over half the Fortune 100 now rely on those tools. So we're at the stage now where we know people want what we're working on, and we're continuing to drive that type of adoption. So companies that are looking to make better models, improve their data sets, train and deploy, often will get a lot of value from our tools, and certainly reach out to talk. I'm sure there's a lot of talented engineers that are tuning in too, we're aggressively hiring. So if you are interested in being a part of making the world programmable, and being at the ground floor of the company that's creating these capabilities to be writ large, we'd love to hear from you. >> Amazing, Joseph, thanks so much for coming on and being part of the AWS Startup Showcase. Man, if I was in my twenties, I'd be knocking on your door, because it's the hottest trend right now, it's super exciting. Generative AI is just the beginning of massive sea change. Congratulations on all your success, and we'll be following you guys. Thanks for spending the time, really appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, this is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about the hottest things in tech. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (chill electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone. Welcome back to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Got a great conversation around Cloud Native, Cloud Native Journey, how enterprises are looking at Cloud Native and putting it all together. And it comes down to operations, developer productivity, and security. It's the hottest topic in technology. We got Chris Jones here in the studio, director of Product Management for Platform9. Chris, thanks for coming in. >> Hey, thanks. >> So when we always chat about, when we're at KubeCon. KubeConEU is coming up and in a few, in a few months, the number one conversation is developer productivity. And the developers are driving all the standards. It's interesting to see how they just throw everything out there and whatever gets adopted ends up becoming the standard, not the old school way of kind of getting stuff done. So that's cool. Security Kubernetes and Containers are all kind of now that next level. So you're starting to see the early adopters moving to the mainstream. Enterprises, a variety of different approaches. You guys are at the center of this. We've had a couple conversations with your CEO and your tech team over there. What are you seeing? You're building the products. What's the core product focus right now for Platform9? What are you guys aiming for? >> The core is that blend of enabling your infrastructure and PlatformOps or DevOps teams to be able to go fast and run in a stable environment, but at the same time enable developers. We don't want people going back to what I've been calling Shadow IT 2.0. It's, hey, I've been told to do something. I kicked off this Container initiative. I need to run my software somewhere. I'm just going to go figure it out. We want to keep those people productive. At the same time we want to enable velocity for our operations teams, be it PlatformOps or DevOps. >> Take us through in your mind and how you see the industry rolling out this Cloud Native journey. Where do you see customers out there? Because DevOps have been around, DevSecOps is rocking, you're seeing AI, hot trend now. Developers are still in charge. Is there a change to the infrastructure of how developers get their coding done and the infrastructure, setting up the DevOps is key, but when you add the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise, what changes? What is the, what is the, I guess what is the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise these days? >> The Cloud Native journey or the change? When- >> Let's start with the, let's start with what they want to do. What's the goal and then how does that happen? >> I think the goal is that promise land. Increased resiliency, better scalability, and overall reduced costs. I've gone from physical to virtual that gave me a higher level of density, packing of resources. I'm moving to Containers. I'm removing that OS layer again. I'm getting a better density again, but all of a sudden I'm running Kubernetes. What does that, what does that fundamentally do to my operations? Does it magically give me scalability and resiliency? Or do I need to change what I'm running and how it's running so it fits that infrastructure? And that's the reality, is you can't just take a Container and drop it into Kubernetes and say, hey, I'm now Cloud Native. I've got reduced cost, or I've got better resiliency. There's things that your engineering teams need to do to make sure that application is a Cloud Native. And then there's what I think is one of the largest shifts of virtual machines to containers. When I was in the world of application performance monitoring, we would see customers saying, well, my engineering team have this Java app, and they said it needs a VM with 12 gig of RAM and eight cores, and that's what we gave it. But it's running slow. I'm working with the application team and you can see it's running slow. And they're like, well, it's got all of its resources. One of those nice features of virtualization is over provisioning. So the infrastructure team would say, well, we gave it, we gave it all a RAM it needed. And what's wrong with that being over provisioned? It's like, well, Java expects that RAM to be there. Now all of a sudden, when you move to the world of containers, what we've got is that's not a set resource limit, really is like it used to be in a VM, right? When you set it for a container, your application teams really need to be paying attention to your resource limits and constraints within the world of Kubernetes. So instead of just being able to say, hey, I'm throwing over the fence and now it's just going to run on a VM, and that VMs got everything it needs. It's now really running on more, much more of a shared infrastructure where limits and constraints are going to impact the neighbors. They are going to impact who's making that decision around resourcing. Because that Kubernetes concept of over provisioning and the virtualization concept of over provisioning are not the same. So when I look at this problem, it's like, well, what changed? Well, I'll do my scale tests as an application developer and tester, and I'd see what resources it needs. I asked for that in the VM, that sets the high watermark, job's done. Well, Kubernetes, it's no longer a VM, it's a Kubernetes manifest. And well, who owns that? Who's writing it? Who's setting those limits? To me, that should be the application team. But then when it goes into operations world, they're like, well, that's now us. Can we change those? So it's that amalgamation of the two that is saying, I'm a developer. I used to pay attention, but now I need to pay attention. And an infrastructure person saying, I used to just give 'em what they wanted, but now I really need to know what they've wanted, because it's going to potentially have a catastrophic impact on what I'm running. >> So what's the impact for the developer? Because, infrastructure's code is what everybody wants. The developer just wants to get the code going and they got to pay attention to all these things, or don't they? Is that where you guys come in? How do you guys see the problem? Actually scope the problem that you guys solve? 'Cause I think you're getting at I think the core issue here, which is, I've got Kubernetes, I've got containers, I've got developer productivity that I want to focus on. What's the problem that you guys solve? >> Platform operation teams that are adopting Cloud Native in their environment, they've got that steep learning curve of Kubernetes plus this fundamental change of how an app runs. What we're doing is taking away the burden of needing to operate and run Kubernetes and giving them the choice of the flexibility of infrastructure and location. Be that an air gap environment like a, let's say a telco provider that needs to run a containerized network function and containerized workloads for 5G. That's one thing that we can deploy and achieve in a completely inaccessible environment all the way through to Platform9 running traditionally as SaaS, as we were born, that's remotely managing and controlling your Kubernetes environments on-premise AWS. That hybrid cloud experience that could be also Bare Metal, but it's our platform running your environments with our support there, 24 by seven, that's proactively reaching out. So it's removing a lot of that burden and the complications that come along with operating the environment and standing it up, which means all of a sudden your DevOps and platform operations teams can go and work with your engineers and application developers and say, hey, let's get, let's focus on the stuff that, that we need to be focused on, which is running our business and providing a service to our customers. Not figuring out how to upgrade a Kubernetes cluster, add new nodes, and configure all of the low level. >> I mean there are, that's operations that just needs to work. And sounds like as they get into the Cloud Native kind of ops, there's a lot of stuff that kind of goes wrong. Or you go, oops, what do we buy into? Because the CIOs, let's go, let's go Cloud Native. We want to, we got to get set up for the future. We're going to be Cloud Native, not just lift and shift and we're going to actually build it out right. Okay, that sounds good. And when we have to actually get done. >> Chris: Yeah. >> You got to spin things up and stand up the infrastructure. What specifically use case do you guys see that emerges for Platform9 when people call you up and you go talk to customers and prospects? What's the one thing or use case or cases that you guys see that you guys solve the best? >> So I think one of the, one of the, I guess new use cases that are coming up now, everyone's talking about economic pressures. I think the, the tap blows open, just get it done. CIO is saying let's modernize, let's use the cloud. Now all of a sudden they're recognizing, well wait, we're spending a lot of money now. We've opened that tap all the way, what do we do? So now they're looking at ways to control that spend. So we're seeing that as a big emerging trend. What we're also sort of seeing is people looking at their data centers and saying, well, I've got this huge legacy environment that's running a hypervisor. It's running VMs. Can we still actually do what we need to do? Can we modernize? Can we start this Cloud Native journey without leaving our data centers, our co-locations? Or if I do want to reduce costs, is that that thing that says maybe I'm repatriating or doing a reverse migration? Do I have to go back to my data center or are there other alternatives? And we're seeing that trend a lot. And our roadmap and what we have in the product today was specifically built to handle those, those occurrences. So we brought in KubeVirt in terms of virtualization. We have a long legacy doing OpenStack and private clouds. And we've worked with a lot of those users and customers that we have and asked the questions, what's important? And today, when we look at the world of Cloud Native, you can run virtualization within Kubernetes. So you can, instead of running two separate platforms, you can have one. So all of a sudden, if you're looking to modernize, you can start on that new infrastructure stack that can run anywhere, Kubernetes, and you can start bringing VMs over there as you are containerizing at the same time. So now you can keep your application operations in one environment. And this also helps if you're trying to reduce costs. If you really are saying, we put that Dev environment in AWS, we've got a huge amount of velocity out of it now, can we do that elsewhere? Is there a co-location we can go to? Is there a provider that we can go to where we can run that infrastructure or run the Kubernetes, but not have to run the infrastructure? >> It's going to be interesting too, when you see the Edge come online, you start, we've got Mobile World Congress coming up, KubeCon events we're going to be at, the conversation is not just about public cloud. And you guys obviously solve a lot of do-it-yourself implementation hassles that emerge when people try to kind of stand up their own environment. And we hear from developers consistency between code, managing new updates, making sure everything is all solid so they can go fast. That's the goal. And that, and then people can get standardized on that. But as you get public cloud and do it yourself, kind of brings up like, okay, there's some gaps there as the architecture changes to be more distributed computing, Edge, on-premises cloud, it's cloud operations. So that's cool for DevOps and Cloud Native. How do you guys differentiate from say, some the public cloud opportunities and the folks who are doing it themselves? How do you guys fit in that world and what's the pitch or what's the story? >> The fit that we look at is that third alternative. Let's get your team focused on what's high value to your business and let us deliver that public cloud experience on your infrastructure or in the public cloud, which gives you that ability to still be flexible if you want to make choices to run consistently for your developers in two different locations. So as I touched on earlier, instead of saying go figure out Kubernetes, how do you upgrade a hundred worker nodes in place upgrade. We've solved that problem. That's what we do every single day of the week. Don't go and try to figure out how to upgrade a cluster and then upgrade all of the, what I call Kubernetes friends, your core DNSs, your metrics server, your Kubernetes dashboard. These are all things that we package, we test, we version. So when you click upgrade, we've already handled that entire process. So it's saying don't have your team focused on that lower level piece of work. Get them focused on what is important, which is your business services. >> Yeah, the infrastructure and getting that stood up. I mean, I think the thing that's interesting, if you look at the market right now, you mentioned cost savings and recovery, obviously kind of a recession. I mean, people are tightening their belts for sure. I don't think the digital transformation and Cloud Native spend is going to plummet. It's going to probably be on hold and be squeezed a little bit. But to your point, people are refactoring looking at how to get the best out of what they got. It's not just open the tap of spend the cash like it used to be. Yeah, a couple months, even a couple years ago. So okay, I get that. But then you look at the what's coming, AI. You're seeing all the new data infrastructure that's coming. The containers, Kubernetes stuff, got to get stood up pretty quickly and it's got to be reliable. So to your point, the teams need to get done with this and move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 'Cause there's more coming. I mean, there's a lot coming for the apps that are building in Data Native, AI-Native, Cloud Native. So it seems that this Kubernetes thing needs to get solved. Is that kind of what you guys are focused on right now? >> So, I mean to use a customer, we have a customer that's in AI/ML and they run their platform at customer sites and that's hardware bound. You can't run AI machine learning on anything anywhere. Well, with Platform9 they can. So we're enabling them to deliver services into their customers that's running their AI/ML platform in their customer's data centers anywhere in the world on hardware that is purpose-built for running that workload. They're not Kubernetes experts. That's what we are. We're bringing them that ability to focus on what's important and just delivering their business services whilst they're enabling our team. And our 24 by seven proactive management are always on assurance to keep that up and running for them. So when something goes bump at the night at 2:00am, our guys get woken up. They're the ones that are reaching out to the customer saying, your environments have a problem, we're taking these actions to fix it. Obviously sometimes, especially if it is running on Bare Metal, there's things you can't do remotely. So you might need someone to go and do that. But even when that happens, you're not by yourself. You're not sitting there like I did when I worked for a bank in one of my first jobs, three o'clock in the morning saying, wow, our end of day processing is stuck. Who else am I waking up? Right? >> Exactly, yeah. Got to get that cash going. But this is a great use case. I want to get to the customer. What do some of the successful customers say to you for the folks watching that aren't yet a customer of Platform9, what are some of the accolades and comments or anecdotes that you guys hear from customers that you have? >> It just works, which I think is probably one of the best ones you can get. Customers coming back and being able to show to their business that they've delivered growth, like business growth and productivity growth and keeping their organization size the same. So we started on our containerization journey. We went to Kubernetes. We've deployed all these new workloads and our operations team is still six people. We're doing way more with growth less, and I think that's also talking to the strength that we're bringing, 'cause we're, we're augmenting that team. They're spending less time on the really low level stuff and automating a lot of the growth activity that's involved. So when it comes to being able to grow their business, they can just focus on that, not- >> Well you guys do the heavy lifting, keep on top of the Kubernetes, make sure that all the versions are all done. Everything's stable and consistent so they can go on and do the build out and provide their services. That seems to be what you guys are best at. >> Correct, correct. >> And so what's on the roadmap? You have the product, direct product management, you get the keys to the kingdom. What is, what is the focus? What's your focus right now? Obviously Kubernetes is growing up, Containers. We've been hearing a lot at the last KubeCon about the security containers is getting better. You've seen verification, a lot more standards around some things. What are you focused on right now for at a product over there? >> Edge is a really big focus for us. And I think in Edge you can look at it in two ways. The mantra that I drive is Edge must be remote. If you can't do something remotely at the Edge, you are using a human being, that's not Edge. Our Edge management capabilities and being in the market for over two years are a hundred percent remote. You want to stand up a store, you just ship the server in there, it gets racked, the rest of it's remote. Imagine a store manager in, I don't know, KFC, just plugging in the server, putting in the ethernet cable, pressing the power button. The rest of all that provisioning for that Cloud Native stack, Kubernetes, KubeVirt for virtualization is done remotely. So we're continuing to focus on that. The next piece that is related to that is allowing people to run Platform9 SaaS in their data centers. So we do ag app today and we've had a really strong focus on telecommunications and the containerized network functions that come along with that. So this next piece is saying, we're bringing what we run as SaaS into your data center, so then you can run it. 'Cause there are many people out there that are saying, we want these capabilities and we want everything that the Platform9 control plane brings and simplifies. But unfortunately, regulatory compliance reasons means that we can't leverage SaaS. So they might be using a cloud, but they're saying that's still our infrastructure. We're still closed that network down, or they're still on-prem. So they're two big priorities for us this year. And that on-premise experiences is paramount, even to the point that we will be delivering a way that when you run an on-premise, you can still say, wait a second, well I can send outbound alerts to Platform9. So their support team can still be proactively helping me as much as they could, even though I'm running Platform9s control plane. So it's sort of giving that blend of two experiences. They're big, they're big priorities. And the third pillar is all around virtualization. It's saying if you have economic pressures, then I think it's important to look at what you're spending today and realistically say, can that be reduced? And I think hypervisors and virtualization is something that should be looked at, because if you can actually reduce that spend, you can bring in some modernization at the same time. Let's take some of those nos that exist that are two years into their five year hardware life cycle. Let's turn that into a Cloud Native environment, which is enabling your modernization in place. It's giving your engineers and application developers the new toys, the new experiences, and then you can start running some of those virtualized workloads with KubeVirt, there. So you're reducing cost and you're modernizing at the same time with your existing infrastructure. >> You know Chris, the topic of this content series that we're doing with you guys is finding the right path, trusting the right path to Cloud Native. What does that mean? I mean, if you had to kind of summarize that phrase, trusting the right path to Cloud Native, what does that mean? It mean in terms of architecture, is it deployment? Is it operations? What's the underlying main theme of that quote? What's the, what's? How would you talk to a customer and say, what does that mean if someone said, "Hey, what does that right path mean?" >> I think the right path means focusing on what you should be focusing on. I know I've said it a hundred times, but if your entire operations team is trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of Kubernetes and getting three months into a journey and discovering, ah, I need Metrics Server to make something function. I want to use Horizontal Pod Autoscaler or Vertical Pod Autoscaler and I need this other thing, now I need to manage that. That's not the right path. That's literally learning what other people have been learning for the last five, seven years that have been focused on Kubernetes solely. So the why- >> There's been a lot of grind. People have been grinding it out. I mean, that's what you're talking about here. They've been standing up the, when Kubernetes started, it was all the promise. >> Chris: Yep. >> And essentially manually kind of getting in in the weeds and configuring it. Now it's matured up. They want stability. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Not everyone can get down and dirty with Kubernetes. It's not something that people want to generally do unless you're totally into it, right? Like I mean, I mean ops teams, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? It's not like it's heavy lifting. Yeah, it's important. Just got to get it going. >> Yeah, I mean if you're deploying with Platform9, your Ops teams can tinker to their hearts content. We're completely compliant upstream Kubernetes. You can go and change an API server flag, let's go and mess with the scheduler, because we want to. You can still do that, but don't, don't have your team investing in all this time to figure it out. It's been figured out. >> John: Got it. >> Get them focused on enabling velocity for your business. >> So it's not build, but run. >> Chris: Correct? >> Or run Kubernetes, not necessarily figure out how to kind of get it all, consume it out. >> You know we've talked to a lot of customers out there that are saying, "I want to be able to deliver a service to my users." Our response is, "Cool, let us run it. You consume it, therefore deliver it." And we're solving that in one hit versus figuring out how to first run it, then operate it, then turn that into a consumable service. >> So the alternative Platform9 is what? They got to do it themselves or use the Cloud or what's the, what's the alternative for the customer for not using Platform9? Hiring more people to kind of work on it? What's the? >> People, building that kind of PaaS experience? Something that I've been very passionate about for the past year is looking at that world of sort of GitOps and what that means. And if you go out there and you sort of start asking the question what's happening? Just generally with Kubernetes as well and GitOps in that scope, then you'll hear some people saying, well, I'm making it PaaS, because Kubernetes is too complicated for my developers and we need to give them something. There's some great material out there from the likes of Intuit and Adobe where for two big contributors to Argo and the Argo projects, they almost have, well they do have, different experiences. One is saying, we went down the PaaS route and it failed. The other one is saying, well we've built a really stable PaaS and it's working. What are they trying to do? They're trying to deliver an outcome to make it easy to use and consume Kubernetes. So you could go out there and say, hey, I'm going to build a Kubernetes cluster. Sounds like Argo CD is a great way to expose that to my developers so they can use Kubernetes without having to use Kubernetes and start automating things. That is an approach, but you're going to be going completely open source and you're going to have to bring in all the individual components, or you could just lay that, lay it down, and consume it as a service and not have to- >> And mentioned to it. They were the ones who kind of brought that into the open. >> They did. Inuit is the primary contributor to the Argo set of products. >> How has that been received in the market? I mean, they had the event at the Computer History Museum last fall. What's the momentum there? What's the big takeaway from that project? >> Growth. To me, growth. I mean go and track the stars on that one. It's just, it's growth. It's unlocking machine learning. Argo workflows can do more than just make things happen. Argo CD I think the approach they're taking is, hey let's make this simple to use, which I think can be lost. And I think credit where credit's due, they're really pushing to bring in a lot of capabilities to make it easier to work with applications and microservices on Kubernetes. It's not just that, hey, here's a GitOps tool. It can take something from a Git repo and deploy it and maybe prioritize it and help you scale your operations from that perspective. It's taking a step back and saying, well how did we get to production in the first place? And what can be done down there to help as well? I think it's growth expansion of features. They had a huge release just come out in, I think it was 2.6, that brought in things that as a product manager that I don't often look at like really deep technical things and say wow, that's powerful. But they have, they've got some great features in that release that really do solve real problems. >> And as the product, as the product person, who's the target buyer for you? Who's the customer? Who's making that? And you got decision maker, influencer, and recommender. Take us through the customer persona for you guys. >> So that Platform Ops, DevOps space, right, the people that need to be delivering Containers as a service out to their organization. But then it's also important to say, well who else are our primary users? And that's developers, engineers, right? They shouldn't have to say, oh well I have access to a Kubernetes cluster. Do I have to use kubectl or do I need to go find some other tool? No, they can just log to Platform9. It's integrated with your enterprise id. >> They're the end customer at the end of the day, they're the user. >> Yeah, yeah. They can log in. And they can see the clusters you've given them access to as a Platform Ops Administrator. >> So job well done for you guys. And your mind is the developers are moving 'em fast, coding and happy. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> And and from a customer standpoint, you reduce the maintenance cost, because you keep the Ops smoother, so you got efficiency and maintenance costs kind of reduced or is that kind of the benefits? >> Yeah, yep, yeah. And at two o'clock in the morning when things go inevitably wrong, they're not there by themselves, and we're proactively working with them. >> And that's the uptime issue. >> That is the uptime issue. And Cloud doesn't solve that, right? Everyone experienced that Clouds can go down, entire regions can go offline. That's happened to all Cloud providers. And what do you do then? Kubernetes isn't your recovery plan. It's part of it, right, but it's that piece. >> You know Chris, to wrap up this interview, I will say that "theCUBE" is 12 years old now. We've been to OpenStack early days. We had you guys on when we were covering OpenStack and now Cloud has just been booming. You got AI around the corner, AI Ops, now you got all this new data infrastructure, it's just amazing Cloud growth, Cloud Native, Security Native, Cloud Native, Data Native, AI Native. It's going to be all, this is the new app environment, but there's also existing infrastructure. So going back to OpenStack, rolling our own cloud, building your own cloud, building infrastructure cloud, in a cloud way, is what the pioneers have done. I mean this is what we're at. Now we're at this scale next level, abstracted away and make it operational. It seems to be the key focus. We look at CNCF at KubeCon and what they're doing with the cloud SecurityCon, it's all about operations. >> Chris: Yep, right. >> Ops and you know, that's going to sound counterintuitive 'cause it's a developer open source environment, but you're starting to see that Ops focus in a good way. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Infrastructure as code way. >> Chris: Yep. >> What's your reaction to that? How would you summarize where we are in the industry relative to, am I getting, am I getting it right there? Is that the right view? What am I missing? What's the current state of the next level, NextGen infrastructure? >> It's a good question. When I think back to sort of late 2019, I sort of had this aha moment as I saw what really truly is delivering infrastructure as code happening at Platform9. There's an open source project Ironic, which is now also available within Kubernetes that is Metal Kubed that automates Bare Metal as code, which means you can go from an empty server, lay down your operating system, lay down Kubernetes, and you've just done everything delivered to your customer as code with a Cloud Native platform. That to me was sort of the biggest realization that I had as I was moving into this industry was, wait, it's there. This can be done. And the evolution of tooling and operations is getting to the point where that can be achieved and it's focused on by a number of different open source projects. Not just Ironic and and Metal Kubed, but that's a huge win. That is truly getting your infrastructure. >> John: That's an inflection point, really. >> Yeah. >> If you think about it, 'cause that's one of the problems. We had with the Bare Metal piece was the automation and also making it Cloud Ops, cloud operations. >> Right, yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think Ironic did really well was saying let's just treat that piece of Bare Metal like a Cloud VM or an instance. If you got a problem with it, just give the person using it or whatever's using it, a new one and reimage it. Just tell it to reimage itself and it'll just (snaps fingers) go. You can do self-service with it. In Platform9, if you log in to our SaaS Ironic, you can go and say, I want that physical server to myself, because I've got a giant workload, or let's turn it into a Kubernetes cluster. That whole thing is automated. To me that's infrastructure as code. I think one of the other important things that's happening at the same time is we're seeing GitOps, we're seeing things like Terraform. I think it's important for organizations to look at what they have and ask, am I using tools that are fit for tomorrow or am I using tools that are yesterday's tools to solve tomorrow's problems? And when especially it comes to modernizing infrastructure as code, I think that's a big piece to look at. >> Do you see Terraform as old or new? >> I see Terraform as old. It's a fantastic tool, capable of many great things and it can work with basically every single provider out there on the planet. It is able to do things. Is it best fit to run in a GitOps methodology? I don't think it is quite at that point. In fact, if you went and looked at Flux, Flux has ways that make Terraform GitOps compliant, which is absolutely fantastic. It's using two tools, the best of breeds, which is solving that tomorrow problem with tomorrow solutions. >> Is the new solutions old versus new. I like this old way, new way. I mean, Terraform is not that old and it's been around for about eight years or so, whatever. But HashiCorp is doing a great job with that. I mean, so okay with Terraform, what's the new address? Is it more complex environments? Because Terraform made sense when you had basic DevOps, but now it sounds like there's a whole another level of complexity. >> I got to say. >> New tools. >> That kind of amalgamation of that application into infrastructure. Now my app team is paying way more attention to that manifest file, which is what GitOps is trying to solve. Let's templatize things. Let's version control our manifest, be it helm, customize, or just a straight up Kubernetes manifest file, plain and boring. Let's get that version controlled. Let's make sure that we know what is there, why it was changed. Let's get some auditability and things like that. And then let's get that deployment all automated. So that's predicated on the cluster existing. Well why can't we do the same thing with the cluster, the inception problem. So even if you're in public cloud, the question is like, well what's calling that API to call that thing to happen? Where is that file living? How well can I manage that in a large team? Oh my God, something just changed. Who changed it? Where is that file? And I think that's one of big, the big pieces to be sold. >> Yeah, and you talk about Edge too and on-premises. I think one of the things I'm observing and certainly when DevOps was rocking and rolling and infrastructures code was like the real push, it was pretty much the public cloud, right? >> Chris: Yep. >> And you did Cloud Native and you had stuff on-premises. Yeah you did some lifting and shifting in the cloud, but the cool stuff was going in the public cloud and you ran DevOps. Okay, now you got on-premise cloud operation and Edge. Is that the new DevOps? I mean 'cause what you're kind of getting at with old new, old new Terraform example is an interesting point, because you're pointing out potentially that that was good DevOps back in the day or it still is. >> Chris: It is, I was going to say. >> But depending on how you define what DevOps is. So if you say, I got the new DevOps with public on-premise and Edge, that's just not all public cloud, that's essentially distributed Cloud Native. >> Correct. Is that the new DevOps in your mind or is that? How would you, or is that oversimplifying it? >> Or is that that term where everyone's saying Platform Ops, right? Has it shifted? >> Well you bring up a good point about Terraform. I mean Terraform is well proven. People love it. It's got great use cases and now there seems to be new things happening. We call things like super cloud emerging, which is multicloud and abstraction layers. So you're starting to see stuff being abstracted away for the benefits of moving to the next level, so teams don't get stuck doing the same old thing. They can move on. Like what you guys are doing with Platform9 is providing a service so that teams don't have to do it. >> Correct, yeah. >> That makes a lot of sense, So you just, now it's running and then they move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, right. >> So what is that next thing? >> I think Edge is a big part of that next thing. The propensity for someone to put up with a delay, I think it's gone. For some reason, we've all become fairly short-tempered, Short fused. You know, I click the button, it should happen now, type people. And for better or worse, hopefully it gets better and we all become a bit more patient. But how do I get more effective and efficient at delivering that to that really demanding- >> I think you bring up a great point. I mean, it's not just people are getting short-tempered. I think it's more of applications are being deployed faster, security is more exposed if they don't see things quicker. You got data now infrastructure scaling up massively. So, there's a double-edged swords to scale. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maintenance, downtime, uptime, security. So yeah, I think there's a tension around, and one hand enthusiasm around pushing a lot of code and new apps. But is the confidence truly there? It's interesting one little, (snaps finger) supply chain software, look at Container Security for instance. >> Yeah, yeah. It's big. I mean it was codified. >> Do you agree that people, that's kind of an issue right now. >> Yeah, and it was, I mean even the supply chain has been codified by the US federal government saying there's things we need to improve. We don't want to see software being a point of vulnerability, and software includes that whole process of getting it to a running point. >> It's funny you mentioned remote and one of the thing things that you're passionate about, certainly Edge has to be remote. You don't want to roll a truck or labor at the Edge. But I was doing a conversation with, at Rebars last year about space. It's hard to do brake fix on space. It's hard to do a, to roll a someone to configure satellite, right? Right? >> Chris: Yeah. >> So Kubernetes is in space. We're seeing a lot of Cloud Native stuff in apps, in space, so just an example. This highlights the fact that it's got to be automated. Is there a machine learning AI angle with all this ChatGPT talk going on? You see all the AI going the next level. Some pretty cool stuff and it's only, I know it's the beginning, but I've heard people using some of the new machine learning, large language models, large foundational models in areas I've never heard of. Machine learning and data centers, machine learning and configuration management, a lot of different ways. How do you see as the product person, you incorporating the AI piece into the products for Platform9? >> I think that's a lot about looking at the telemetry and the information that we get back and to use one of those like old idle terms, that continuous improvement loop to feed it back in. And I think that's really where machine learning to start with comes into effect. As we run across all these customers, our system that helps at two o'clock in the morning has that telemetry, it's got that data. We can see what's changing and what's happening. So it's writing the right algorithms, creating the right machine learning to- >> So training will work for you guys. You have enough data and the telemetry to do get that training data. >> Yeah, obviously there's a lot of investment required to get there, but that is something that ultimately that could be achieved with what we see in operating people's environments. >> Great. Chris, great to have you here in the studio. Going wide ranging conversation on Kubernetes and Platform9. I guess my final question would be how do you look at the next five years out there? Because you got to run the product management, you got to have that 20 mile steer, you got to look at the customers, you got to look at what's going on in the engineering and you got to kind of have that arc. This is the right path kind of view. What's the five year arc look like for you guys? How do you see this playing out? 'Cause KubeCon is coming up and we're you seeing Kubernetes kind of break away with security? They had, they didn't call it KubeCon Security, they call it CloudNativeSecurityCon, they just had in Seattle inaugural events seemed to go well. So security is kind of breaking out and you got Kubernetes. It's getting bigger. Certainly not going away, but what's your five year arc of of how Platform9 and Kubernetes and Ops evolve? >> It's to stay on that theme, it's focusing on what is most important to our users and getting them to a point where they can just consume it, so they're not having to operate it. So it's finding those big items and bringing that into our platform. It's something that's consumable, that's just taken care of, that's tested with each release. So it's simplifying operations more and more. We've always said freedom in cloud computing. Well we started on, we started on OpenStack and made that simple. Stable, easy, you just have it, it works. We're doing that with Kubernetes. We're expanding out that user, right, we're saying bring your developers in, they can download their Kube conflict. They can see those Containers that are running there. They can access the events, the log files. They can log in and build a VM using KubeVirt. They're self servicing. So it's alleviating pressures off of the Ops team, removing the help desk systems that people still seem to rely on. So it's like what comes into that field that is the next biggest issue? Is it things like CI/CD? Is it simplifying GitOps? Is it bringing in security capabilities to talk to that? Or is that a piece that is a best of breed? Is there a reason that it's been spun out to its own conference? Is this something that deserves a focus that should be a specialized capability instead of tooling and vendors that we work with, that we partner with, that could be brought in as a service. I think it's looking at those trends and making sure that what we bring in has the biggest impact to our users. >> That's awesome. Thanks for coming in. I'll give you the last word. Put a plug in for Platform9 for the people who are watching. What should they know about Platform9 that they might not know about it or what should? When should they call you guys and when should they engage? Take a take a minute to give the plug. >> The plug. I think it's, if your operations team is focused on building Kubernetes, stop. That shouldn't be the cloud. That shouldn't be in the Edge, that shouldn't be at the data center. They should be consuming it. If your engineering teams are all trying different ways and doing different things to use and consume Cloud Native services and Kubernetes, they shouldn't be. You want consistency. That's how you get economies of scale. Provide them with a simple platform that's integrated with all of your enterprise identity where they can just start consuming instead of having to solve these problems themselves. It's those, it's those two personas, right? Where the problems manifest. What are my operations teams doing, and are they delivering to my company or are they building infrastructure again? And are my engineers sprinting or crawling? 'Cause if they're not sprinting, you should be asked the question, do I have the right Cloud Native tooling in my environment and how can I get them back? >> I think it's developer productivity, uptime, security are the tell signs. You get that done. That's the goal of what you guys are doing, your mission. >> Chris: Yep. >> Great to have you on, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Chris: Thanks very much. 0 Okay, this is "theCUBE" here, finding the right path to Cloud Native. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle synth music) (music ends) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, an open industry collaboration between technologists, consultants, analysts, and of course practitioners to help shape the future of cloud. At this event, one of the key areas we're exploring is the intersection of cloud and data. And how building value on top of hyperscale clouds and across clouds is evolving, a concept of course we call "Supercloud". And we're pleased to welcome our friends from Enterprise Technology research, Erik Bradley and Darren Brabham. Guys, thanks for joining us, great to see you. we love to bring the data into these conversations. >> Thank you for having us, Dave, I appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks. >> You bet. And so, let me do the setup on what is Supercloud. It's a concept that we've floated, Before re:Invent 2021, based on the idea that cloud infrastructure is becoming ubiquitous, incredibly powerful, but there's a lack of standards across the big three clouds. That creates friction. So we defined over the period of time, you know, better part of a year, a set of essential elements, deployment models for so-called supercloud, which create this common experience for specific cloud services that, of course, again, span multiple clouds and even on-premise data. So Erik, with that as background, I wonder if you could add your general thoughts on the term supercloud, maybe play proxy for the CIO community, 'cause you do these round tables, you talk to these guys all the time, you gather a lot of amazing information from senior IT DMs that compliment your survey. So what are your thoughts on the term and the concept? >> Yeah, sure. I'll even go back to last year when you and I did our predictions panel, right? And we threw it out there. And to your point, you know, there's some haters. Anytime you throw out a new term, "Is it marketing buzz? Is it worth it? Why are you even doing it?" But you know, from my own perspective, and then also speaking to the IT DMs that we interview on a regular basis, this is just a natural evolution. It's something that's inevitable in enterprise tech, right? The internet was not built for what it has become. It was never intended to be the underlying infrastructure of our daily lives and work. The cloud also was not built to be what it's become. But where we're at now is, we have to figure out what the cloud is and what it needs to be to be scalable, resilient, secure, and have the governance wrapped around it. And to me that's what supercloud is. It's a way to define operantly, what the next generation, the continued iteration and evolution of the cloud and what its needs to be. And that's what the supercloud means to me. And what depends, if you want to call it metacloud, supercloud, it doesn't matter. The point is that we're trying to define the next layer, the next future of work, which is inevitable in enterprise tech. Now, from the IT DM perspective, I have two interesting call outs. One is from basically a senior developer IT architecture and DevSecOps who says he uses the term all the time. And the reason he uses the term, is that because multi-cloud has a stigma attached to it, when he is talking to his business executives. (David chuckles) the stigma is because it's complex and it's expensive. So he switched to supercloud to better explain to his business executives and his CFO and his CIO what he's trying to do. And we can get into more later about what it means to him. But the inverse of that, of course, is a good CSO friend of mine for a very large enterprise says the concern with Supercloud is the reduction of complexity. And I'll explain, he believes anything that takes the requirement of specific expertise out of the equation, even a little bit, as a CSO worries him. So as you said, David, always two sides to the coin, but I do believe supercloud is a relevant term, and it is necessary because the cloud is continuing to be defined. >> You know, that's really interesting too, 'cause you know, Darren, we use Snowflake a lot as an example, sort of early supercloud, and you think from a security standpoint, we've always pushed Amazon and, "Are you ever going to kind of abstract the complexity away from all these primitives?" and their position has always been, "Look, if we produce these primitives, and offer these primitives, we we can move as the market moves. When you abstract, then it becomes harder to peel the layers." But Darren, from a data standpoint, like I say, we use Snowflake a lot. I think of like Tim Burners-Lee when Web 2.0 came out, he said, "Well this is what the internet was always supposed to be." So in a way, you know, supercloud is maybe what multi-cloud was supposed to be. But I mean, you think about data sharing, Darren, across clouds, it's always been a challenge. Snowflake always, you know, obviously trying to solve that problem, as are others. But what are your thoughts on the concept? >> Yeah, I think the concept fits, right? It is reflective of, it's a paradigm shift, right? Things, as a pendulum have swung back and forth between needing to piece together a bunch of different tools that have specific unique use cases and they're best in breed in what they do. And then focusing on the duct tape that holds 'em all together and all the engineering complexity and skill, it shifted from that end of the pendulum all the way back to, "Let's streamline this, let's simplify it. Maybe we have budget crunches and we need to consolidate tools or eliminate tools." And so then you kind of see this back and forth over time. And with data and analytics for instance, a lot of organizations were trying to bring the data closer to the business. That's where we saw self-service analytics coming in. And tools like Snowflake, what they did was they helped point to different databases, they helped unify data, and organize it in a single place that was, you know, in a sense neutral, away from a single cloud vendor or a single database, and allowed the business to kind of be more flexible in how it brought stuff together and provided it out to the business units. So Snowflake was an example of one of those times where we pulled back from the granular, multiple points of the spear, back to a simple way to do things. And I think Snowflake has continued to kind of keep that mantle to a degree, and we see other tools trying to do that, but that's all it is. It's a paradigm shift back to this kind of meta abstraction layer that kind of simplifies what is the reality, that you need a complex multi-use case, multi-region way of doing business. And it sort of reflects the reality of that. >> And you know, to me it's a spectrum. As part of Supercloud 2, we're talking to a number of of practitioners, Ionis Pharmaceuticals, US West, we got Walmart. And it's a spectrum, right? In some cases the practitioner's saying, "You know, the way I solve multi-cloud complexity is mono-cloud, I just do one cloud." (laughs) Others like Walmart are saying, "Hey, you know, we actually are building an abstraction layer ourselves, take advantage of it." So my general question to both of you is, is this a concept, is the lack of standards across clouds, you know, really a problem, you know, or is supercloud a solution looking for a problem? Or do you hear from practitioners that "No, this is really an issue, we have to bring together a set of standards to sort of unify our cloud estates." >> Allow me to answer that at a higher level, and then we're going to hand it over to Dr. Brabham because he is a little bit more detailed on the realtime streaming analytics use cases, which I think is where we're going to get to. But to answer that question, it really depends on the size and the complexity of your business. At the very large enterprise, Dave, Yes, a hundred percent. This needs to happen. There is complexity, there is not only complexity in the compute and actually deploying the applications, but the governance and the security around them. But for lower end or, you know, business use cases, and for smaller businesses, it's a little less necessary. You certainly don't need to have all of these. Some of the things that come into mind from the interviews that Darren and I have done are, you know, financial services, if you're doing real-time trading, anything that has real-time data metrics involved in your transactions, is going to be necessary. And another use case that we hear about is in online travel agencies. So I think it is very relevant, the complexity does need to be solved, and I'll allow Darren to explain a little bit more about how that's used from an analytics perspective. >> Yeah, go for it. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think any modern, you know, multinational company that's going to have a footprint in the US and Europe, in China, or works in different areas like manufacturing, where you're probably going to have on-prem instances that will stay on-prem forever, for various performance reasons. You have these complicated governance and security and regulatory issues. So inherently, I think, large multinational companies and or companies that are in certain areas like finance or in, you know, online e-commerce, or things that need real-time data, they inherently are going to have a very complex environment that's going to need to be managed in some kind of cleaner way. You know, they're looking for one door to open, one pane of glass to look at, one thing to do to manage these multi points. And, streaming's a good example of that. I mean, not every organization has a real-time streaming use case, and may not ever, but a lot of organizations do, a lot of industries do. And so there's this need to use, you know, they want to use open-source tools, they want to use Apache Kafka for instance. They want to use different megacloud vendors offerings, like Google Pub/Sub or you know, Amazon Kinesis Firehose. They have all these different pieces they want to use for different use cases at different stages of maturity or proof of concept, you name it. They're going to have to have this complexity. And I think that's why we're seeing this need, to have sort of this supercloud concept, to juggle all this, to wrangle all of it. 'Cause the reality is, it's complex and you have to simplify it somehow. >> Great, thanks you guys. All right, let's bring up the graphic, and take a look. Anybody who follows the breaking analysis, which is co-branded with ETR Cube Insights powered by ETR, knows we like to bring data to the table. ETR does amazing survey work every quarter, 1200 plus 1500 practitioners that that answer a number of questions. The vertical axis here is net score, which is ETR's proprietary methodology, which is a measure of spending momentum, spending velocity. And the horizontal axis here is overlap, but it's the presence pervasiveness, and the dataset, the ends, that table insert on the bottom right shows you how the dots are plotted, the net score and then the ends in the survey. And what we've done is we've plotted a bunch of the so-called supercloud suspects, let's start in the upper right, the cloud platforms. Without these hyperscale clouds, you can't have a supercloud. And as always, Azure and AWS, up and to the right, it's amazing we're talking about, you know, 80 plus billion dollar company in AWS. Azure's business is, if you just look at the IaaS is in the 50 billion range, I mean it's just amazing to me the net scores here. Anything above 40% we consider highly elevated. And you got Azure and you got Snowflake, Databricks, HashiCorp, we'll get to them. And you got AWS, you know, right up there at that size, it's quite amazing. With really big ends as well, you know, 700 plus ends in the survey. So, you know, kind of half the survey actually has these platforms. So my question to you guys is, what are you seeing in terms of cloud adoption within the big three cloud players? I wonder if you could could comment, maybe Erik, you could start. >> Yeah, sure. Now we're talking data, now I'm happy. So yeah, we'll get into some of it. Right now, the January, 2023 TSIS is approaching 1500 survey respondents. One caveat, it's not closed yet, it will close on Friday, but with an end that big we are over statistically significant. We also recently did a cloud survey, and there's a couple of key points on that I want to get into before we get into individual vendors. What we're seeing here, is that annual spend on cloud infrastructure is expected to grow at almost a 70% CAGR over the next three years. The percentage of those workloads for cloud infrastructure are expected to grow over 70% as three years as well. And as you mentioned, Azure and AWS are still dominant. However, we're seeing some share shift spreading around a little bit. Now to get into the individual vendors you mentioned about, yes, Azure is still number one, AWS is number two. What we're seeing, which is incredibly interesting, CloudFlare is number three. It's actually beating GCP. That's the first time we've seen it. What I do want to state, is this is on net score only, which is our measure of spending intentions. When you talk about actual pervasion in the enterprise, it's not even close. But from a spending velocity intention point of view, CloudFlare is now number three above GCP, and even Salesforce is creeping up to be at GCPs level. So what we're seeing here, is a continued domination by Azure and AWS, but some of these other players that maybe might fit into your moniker. And I definitely want to talk about CloudFlare more in a bit, but I'm going to stop there. But what we're seeing is some of these other players that fit into your Supercloud moniker, are starting to creep up, Dave. >> Yeah, I just want to clarify. So as you also know, we track IaaS and PaaS revenue and we try to extract, so AWS reports in its quarterly earnings, you know, they're just IaaS and PaaS, they don't have a SaaS play, a little bit maybe, whereas Microsoft and Google include their applications and so we extract those out and if you do that, AWS is bigger, but in the surveys, you know, customers, they see cloud, SaaS to them as cloud. So that's one of the reasons why you see, you know, Microsoft as larger in pervasion. If you bring up that survey again, Alex, the survey results, you see them further to the right and they have higher spending momentum, which is consistent with what you see in the earnings calls. Now, interesting about CloudFlare because the CEO of CloudFlare actually, and CloudFlare itself uses the term supercloud basically saying, "Hey, we're building a new type of internet." So what are your thoughts? Do you have additional information on CloudFlare, Erik that you want to share? I mean, you've seen them pop up. I mean this is a really interesting company that is pretty forward thinking and vocal about how it's disrupting the industry. >> Sure, we've been tracking 'em for a long time, and even from the disruption of just a traditional CDN where they took down Akamai and what they're doing. But for me, the definition of a true supercloud provider can't just be one instance. You have to have multiple. So it's not just the cloud, it's networking aspect on top of it, it's also security. And to me, CloudFlare is the only one that has all of it. That they actually have the ability to offer all of those things. Whereas you look at some of the other names, they're still piggybacking on the infrastructure or platform as a service of the hyperscalers. CloudFlare does not need to, they actually have the cloud, the networking, and the security all themselves. So to me that lends credibility to their own internal usage of that moniker Supercloud. And also, again, just what we're seeing right here that their net score is now creeping above AGCP really does state it. And then just one real last thing, one of the other things we do in our surveys is we track adoption and replacement reasoning. And when you look at Cloudflare's adoption rate, which is extremely high, it's based on technical capabilities, the breadth of their feature set, it's also based on what we call the ability to avoid stack alignment. So those are again, really supporting reasons that makes CloudFlare a top candidate for your moniker of supercloud. >> And they've also announced an object store (chuckles) and a database. So, you know, that's going to be, it takes a while as you well know, to get database adoption going, but you know, they're ambitious and going for it. All right, let's bring the chart back up, and I want to focus Darren in on the ecosystem now, and really, we've identified Snowflake and Databricks, it's always fun to talk about those guys, and there are a number of other, you know, data platforms out there, but we use those too as really proxies for leaders. We got a bunch of the backup guys, the data protection folks, Rubric, Cohesity, and Veeam. They're sort of in a cluster, although Rubric, you know, ahead of those guys in terms of spending momentum. And then VMware, Tanzu and Red Hat as sort of the cross cloud platform. But I want to focus, Darren, on the data piece of it. We're seeing a lot of activity around data sharing, governed data sharing. Databricks is using Delta Sharing as their sort of place, Snowflakes is sort of this walled garden like the app store. What are your thoughts on, you know, in the context of Supercloud, cross cloud capabilities for the data platforms? >> Yeah, good question. You know, I think Databricks is an interesting player because they sort of have made some interesting moves, with their Data Lakehouse technology. So they're trying to kind of complicate, or not complicate, they're trying to take away the complications of, you know, the downsides of data warehousing and data lakes, and trying to find that middle ground, where you have the benefits of a managed, governed, you know, data warehouse environment, but you have sort of the lower cost, you know, capability of a data lake. And so, you know, Databricks has become really attractive, especially by data scientists, right? We've been tracking them in the AI machine learning sector for quite some time here at ETR, attractive for a data scientist because it looks and acts like a lake, but can have some managed capabilities like a warehouse. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. So in some ways I think you've seen sort of a data science driver for the adoption of Databricks that has now become a little bit more mainstream across the business. Snowflake, maybe the other direction, you know, it's a cloud data warehouse that you know, is starting to expand its capabilities and add on new things like Streamlit is a good example in the analytics space, with apps. So you see these tools starting to branch and creep out a bit, but they offer that sort of neutrality, right? We heard one IT decision maker we recently interviewed that referred to Snowflake and Databricks as the quote unquote Switzerland of what they do. And so there's this desirability from an organization to find these tools that can solve the complex multi-headed use-case of data and analytics, which every business unit needs in different ways. And figure out a way to do that, an elegant way that's governed and centrally managed, that federated kind of best of both worlds that you get by bringing the data close to the business while having a central governed instance. So these tools are incredibly powerful and I think there's only going to be room for growth, for those two especially. I think they're going to expand and do different things and maybe, you know, join forces with others and a lot of the power of what they do well is trying to define these connections and find these partnerships with other vendors, and try to be seen as the nice add-on to your existing environment that plays nicely with everyone. So I think that's where those two tools are going, but they certainly fit this sort of label of, you know, trying to be that supercloud neutral, you know, layer that unites everything. >> Yeah, and if you bring the graphic back up, please, there's obviously big data plays in each of the cloud platforms, you know, Microsoft, big database player, AWS is, you know, 11, 12, 15, data stores. And of course, you know, BigQuery and other, you know, data platforms within Google. But you know, I'm not sure the big cloud guys are going to go hard after so-called supercloud, cross-cloud services. Although, we see Oracle getting in bed with Microsoft and Azure, with a database service that is cross-cloud, certainly Google with Anthos and you know, you never say never with with AWS. I guess what I would say guys, and I'll I'll leave you with this is that, you know, just like all players today are cloud players, I feel like anybody in the business or most companies are going to be so-called supercloud players. In other words, they're going to have a cross-cloud strategy, they're going to try to build connections if they're coming from on-prem like a Dell or an HPE, you know, or Pure or you know, many of these other companies, Cohesity is another one. They're going to try to connect to their on-premise states, of course, and create a consistent experience. It's natural that they're going to have sort of some consistency across clouds. You know, the big question is, what's that spectrum look like? I think on the one hand you're going to have some, you know, maybe some rudimentary, you know, instances of supercloud or maybe they just run on the individual clouds versus where Snowflake and others and even beyond that are trying to go with a single global instance, basically building out what I would think of as their own cloud, and importantly their own ecosystem. I'll give you guys the last thought. Maybe you could each give us, you know, closing thoughts. Maybe Darren, you could start and Erik, you could bring us home on just this entire topic, the future of cloud and data. >> Yeah, I mean I think, you know, two points to make on that is, this question of these, I guess what we'll call legacy on-prem players. These, mega vendors that have been around a long time, have big on-prem footprints and a lot of people have them for that reason. I think it's foolish to assume that a company, especially a large, mature, multinational company that's been around a long time, it's foolish to think that they can just uproot and leave on-premises entirely full scale. There will almost always be an on-prem footprint from any company that was not, you know, natively born in the cloud after 2010, right? I just don't think that's reasonable anytime soon. I think there's some industries that need on-prem, things like, you know, industrial manufacturing and so on. So I don't think on-prem is going away, and I think vendors that are going to, you know, go very cloud forward, very big on the cloud, if they neglect having at least decent connectors to on-prem legacy vendors, they're going to miss out. So I think that's something that these players need to keep in mind is that they continue to reach back to some of these players that have big footprints on-prem, and make sure that those integrations are seamless and work well, or else their customers will always have a multi-cloud or hybrid experience. And then I think a second point here about the future is, you know, we talk about the three big, you know, cloud providers, the Google, Microsoft, AWS as sort of the opposite of, or different from this new supercloud paradigm that's emerging. But I want to kind of point out that, they will always try to make a play to become that and I think, you know, we'll certainly see someone like Microsoft trying to expand their licensing and expand how they play in order to become that super cloud provider for folks. So also don't want to downplay them. I think you're going to see those three big players continue to move, and take over what players like CloudFlare are doing and try to, you know, cut them off before they get too big. So, keep an eye on them as well. >> Great points, I mean, I think you're right, the first point, if you're Dell, HPE, Cisco, IBM, your strategy should be to make your on-premise state as cloud-like as possible and you know, make those differences as minimal as possible. And you know, if you're a customer, then the business case is going to be low for you to move off of that. And I think you're right. I think the cloud guys, if this is a real problem, the cloud guys are going to play in there, and they're going to make some money at it. Erik, bring us home please. >> Yeah, I'm going to revert back to our data and this on the macro side. So to kind of support this concept of a supercloud right now, you know Dave, you and I know, we check overall spending and what we're seeing right now is total year spent is expected to only be 4.6%. We ended 2022 at 5% even though it began at almost eight and a half. So this is clearly declining and in that environment, we're seeing the top two strategies to reduce spend are actually vendor consolidation with 36% of our respondents saying they're actively seeking a way to reduce their number of vendors, and consolidate into one. That's obviously supporting a supercloud type of play. Number two is reducing excess cloud resources. So when I look at both of those combined, with a drop in the overall spending reduction, I think you're on the right thread here, Dave. You know, the overall macro view that we're seeing in the data supports this happening. And if I can real quick, couple of names we did not touch on that I do think deserve to be in this conversation, one is HashiCorp. HashiCorp is the number one player in our infrastructure sector, with a 56% net score. It does multiple things within infrastructure and it is completely agnostic to your environment. And if we're also speaking about something that's just a singular feature, we would look at Rubric for data, backup, storage, recovery. They're not going to offer you your full cloud or your networking of course, but if you are looking for your backup, recovery, and storage Rubric, also number one in that sector with a 53% net score. Two other names that deserve to be in this conversation as we watch it move and evolve. >> Great, thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, we had both of those guys in the chart and I failed to focus in on HashiCorp. And clearly a Supercloud enabler. All right guys, we got to go. Thank you so much for joining us, appreciate it. Let's keep this conversation going. >> Always enjoy talking to you Dave, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, keep it right there for more content from Supercloud 2. This is Dave Valente for John Ferg and the entire Cube team. We'll be right back. (gentle synth music) (music fades)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, it's CUBE's live coverage. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here with Paul Gillen. Got a great guest coming up here, talking about cloud security, all things going on in the cloud. Paul, great day. How you doing? How you holding up? >> I'm about at the end of my, running on fumes, John. (John laughs) >> Let's bring it home. >> And we got another day coming up. >> Day three, let's bring it home, come on, let's go. Lot of energy. >> Lot of energy on the floor and certainly a lot of talk about security at this conference. Busy, busy market, lots of vendors. And one of the more notable ones, Cohesity, recently introduced a brand new suite, a brand new approach to security that combines data protection and security and backup. With us, to talk about that is Amith Nair, who is the Senior Vice president and General Manager of cloud at Cohesity. Welcome. >> Thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Paul and John. >> So tell us about DataHawk, your new product. >> Yeah, just to set a little bit of perspective on Cohesity, and how we think about DataHawk and security in general is, Cohesity is the leading solution for data security and management. And if you think about all the pillars that we provide in terms of solution around that data solutions, so we have data protection, data security, data access, data mobility and data insights. So the focus for us over the last many months was really to make our data security solutions really strong. So generally when customers think about security, they think about starting with security at the perimeter, on the edge. They think about firewalls, network layer, and so on and so forth. But in the end, what they're really trying to protect is the data that aligns to what they're really trying to save. Right? So DataHawk was formulated and built in order to help extend our existing solutions to provide additional security, layers of security, and also work with partners to enable doing that. Many months ago, we released this product called FortKnox, which is our cyber vaulting solution. One that customers really love and use today. >> It's an air gap solution, right? >> It's an air gap solution with forum capabilities, and so on. Extremely liked by customers, very well adopted, and we extended that to provide lots more data classification capabilities, and ransomware checks as well. So malware checks in the product itself in terms of what it is being backed up. And is there malware in the backed up data and so on? >> Maybe, we can talk about the evolution of ransomware, because ransomware is getting a lot more sophisticated. It used to start at the end point and then penetrate into the network. Increasingly, now, we're seeing it move into the backup, and actually corrupt backup files before moving into the production data. How is ransomware evolving? >> I mean, there's a ransomware attack that's happening right now as we speak, right? What is it? One in every 11 seconds or so on. And it's getting very, very sophisticated. And you're absolutely right, the target early on used to be the network, or the firewall and so on and so forth. Now, it is the backup. So you have to be very smart about how you protect your backup and if you do get attacked, which a lot of CSOs are starting to realize, it's not about just preventing. But it's also what do you do if it does happen? How can you be resilient in the case of an attack? How can you recover if something happens? And that's where we come in to play as well. >> What's some of the state of the art posture, security posture and cyber resilient techniques? Can you share your observations on what are some of the current state of the art positions? I mean, besides they buy everything, and they want everything, but we're looking at a cost reduction, slow down in the recession, customer's going to look at belt tightening. We heard that from Adam Celeste. Has that changed or enhanced the posture, and impact to the resiliency on the cyber side? >> Yeah, I think customers are getting really smart in terms of how they're adopting cloud. We saw a tremendous amount of growth from a cloud usage perspective, I think, over the last two years and through the pandemic. But now they're getting smart about, "How am I consuming that cloud?" Which is where the consumption's starting to slow down. But that does not mean they're not using cloud, right? And security from a cloud perspective is way different from the old world, which was very static. You're in a completely dynamic environment now. So everybody talks about zero trust security. You have to have that level of no trust, trust nothing, authenticate everything, in terms of how you approach what connects to your network, what services connect to your network and so on. And we follow the same approach, but we also believe that one solution cannot solve it. And which is why we had this announcement around our security advisory council, and security partnership and alliances, where we are providing data to additional solutions, or insights into other security solutions that will help the customer in the end. We talked about how some customers have anywhere between 50 to 70 vendors on their network for security. We want to reduce that noise and that clutter, especially when it comes to cost and expenses. Right? >> Awesome. I want to ask you a personal question if you don't mind. You're new, relatively new to Cohesity, SVP, Senior Vice President, General Manager of the cloud. Obviously, AWS, the biggest cloud, there's other clouds. What attracted you to Cohesity? What was the key thing that attracted you to this company to take a leadership role as this next wave comes in for cloud, and security and what Cohesity is doing? >> Yeah, there are a couple of reasons. Number one and most important was the maturity of the product and the quality of the product. Mohit Aron was our founder, you know, known as the grandfather or as the father of hyperconverge networking. >> He's a legend. >> He's a legend, right? >> (laughs) Just say it. >> And he's built a phenomenal set of technologies that really helps customers and that brings me to the second point, which is customers. We are a customer-obsessed company. And as I was talking to Mohit and Sanjay was our CEO, and Lynn was our CMO and others in the company, it was very evident to me that the core DNA of the company is really helping our customers be successful. Those two things put together. And the third thing, really, I am very culturally-obsessed when it comes to how organizations are run. We have a very strong culture in terms of how we treat employees, how we build the right set of products, and how we go to market. Right? Those three things put together, helped me really make a decision. Obviously, the leadership team within Cohesity was top notch as well. So every one of them that I spoke to had that same core belief system. That had helped a lot. >> Sanjay's a good friend of theCUBE, we've interviewed him many times with VMware. Paul, you know Sanjay's, he loves to get on cam. We hope to have him on tomorrow, if we can get him on the calendar. But you know, Sanjay told me one time, "I never missed a quarter." In his SAP, VMware, he's proud. We'll see, Paul, we're- >> Well, I'm going to hold him to that. >> We better not miss a quarter, I'm going to hold him to that. How's business? How's it, healthy? >> It's been great. We are seeing consistent demand for all of our products. As you can see, we continue to release new products into the market that customers are asking for. We are listening to what customers really want. Our roadmap is really based on two things, customer demand and market and where the market is growing. We have to stay on top of how the market is evolving based on the new challenges that customers are facing. Right? So markets, we are doing really good, company continues to grow and Sanjay has been fantastic in terms of driving that leadership. >> Yeah, he's a good driver. And again, he's Mr. Quarter for a reason, he's disciplined. >> (laughs) Very disciplined. >> Another reason, initiative, Cohesity's is the data security alliance. You put together a group of about a dozen security companies. Getting security companies to work with each other is always a challenge. How did you convince them to join with you? >> Well, one, we aligned on a mission. I mean, in the end, all the partners that we are talking about, they all care about what customers want. And we talked earlier about having that, you know, what is that single pane of glass when it comes to security? Is there one? Probably not. But if you can reduce the chatter, and the noise amongst all these companies, that helps. The other thing is they also understood our mission was really around the security, around data. We talked earlier about how security used to be very parameter or centric, but what you're really trying to save and secure is your data, which is your Queen Bee. And so a couple of months ago at our customer advisory council, I talked about moving and shifting the focus of security to be very data centric. And what we do in this partnership and alliance is a true integration. So there's a lot of engineering work that goes in, is us providing insights around the data to the security partners who can then leverage that to help customers be protected early on. Conversely, they can provide insights into an attack that's emanating possibly, to let us know that there's something happening, so we can lock up the data. So it's a bidirectional, symbiotic relationship between these partners and they all believe in that common cause of making sure the customers get protected. As we talked about earlier, lots of cyber attacks happening even as we speak, if we can collectively do something good in terms of making customers secure and successful, let's do it. >> So what will result from this alliance other than a press release? >> Customers will be successful, hopefully, not just protect customers from ransomware attacks, but also respond and recover if something does happen. We also announce our security council led by Kevin Mandia, and then we have some other big security advisors in that council as well. And that's been very helpful. So it's not just about the product itself, but it's also the collective experience of all these folks who can help and advise and coach CSOs, and other organizations on, what are the best practices? What are the things you're not really considering? What is the vision for you from an architecture standpoint? How is security threats starting to get more, and more mature? And how can you account for that? How can you reduce cost, to your point, right? How can you reduce cost when it comes to managing all these security solutions? >> No, there's no industry where working, it's more important for vendors to work together than in this one. >> Absolutely. I mean, especially for security, I don't think there's a one size fits all solution. So we have to work together. Right? >> What's your state of the union? You were at HashiCorp before you came here, you've been in the industry for a while, you've seen a few cycles of innovation. We're in a really weird time right now, because AWS wasn't really as powerful in 2008, when the last recession was hard too. They weren't really that big then. Now, they're a big part of the economic equation. So agility means fast speed. Can they help us get out of the pandemic? Customer's going to tighten their belts? Is there going to be a pullback? Is there tech spending? All these questions are looming. What are your customers seeing? What do you think is going to happen given the history? 'Cause I don't see the building stopping. I think you'll see more cloud, more savings. So is there fine-tuning solutions? What are customers thinking like now? >> I mean, if you think back to the last recession, the last major one, 2009, that's really about the time when you saw customers thinking about that whole digital transformation, because they started understanding that the way to connect with customers is through a digital engagement. Right? Now, as we've gone through a 10, 15 year period where there has been a lot of digital transformation, there's been a lot of investment in the cloud. Cloud is no longer seen with suspicion. Now, it's about getting smart on how to use it, how to build the right applications. Are there the right set of applications that need to stay in the cloud? And there might be others that need to stay on-prem. Right? I've talked to customers and CIOs who've mentioned to me in the past, that they would go a hundred percent in the cloud, and six months later they come back and they're like, "Nope, you're not going a hundred percent in the cloud. Maybe it's 10% or 15%." >> So they're moving. So what's your plan? You're the GM, you're in charge, you've got to take that next hill. Is it a tailwind, headwind? You've got to navigate the waters here, so to speak, mixed metaphors, but for the most part, you got a business opportunity. >> Absolutely. >> What's the outlook look like? What's your vision? What's the plan? >> Yeah. When it comes to cloud, there are certain things that are a common denominator. Right? One is how do you enable not just applications that are completely on cloud, but also that's on-prem? So for us, that hybrid movement is extremely important. But to create a single seamless UI and experience from an end-customer perspective. So for me, maintaining that and more at team, the R and D team at Cohesity have done a phenomenal job around that. For me, it's to maintain that, and then build additional workloads that make sense from a customer standpoint. There's a lot of investment customers are making. We also have to make sure that they're utilized correctly, and their stored, backed up data, recovered in a way that makes sense for them. And then if things do go south in terms of attacks or other issues, how can we help them get back up to speed, and make sure their business does not suffer? Right? So all of those combined, I think from a cloud perspective, it's the agility, the scalability, and the speed and swiftness that we can work with. >> Well, it sounds like he's ready for the Instagram Real Challenge, our new format on theCUBE. We're going to do a little segment where you can deliver a YouTube Short, Instagram Reel, TikTok or CUBE Gem. More of a thought leadership soundbite for 30 seconds around your view of why is cloud important right now. What's going on at this event that people should pay attention to? What's Cohesity doing? If you can put together a reel, a sizzle reel, or a thought leadership statement. What would that be? >> It would be that cloud is important for any business to be successful. And that's a given right now. I mean, digital transformation is an overused term, but the reality is it's here to stay. And it is the reason why everybody has a mobile phone. Half the people walking on the floor right now is looking at their phone and walking around. And that's your engagement method. So if you don't transform yourself to be able to connect with your end-user, your customer, you will not be successful. And Cohesity can help you by making sure that all of that data that you have, everything that you need in order to be successful to drive that engagement with your customers secure is backed up. No matter what, we will get you back up and running, and you will be successful. And we are in the success journey with you. >> Amith Nair, Senior Vice President, General Manager, Cohesity, the Cloud. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. For Paul Gillen, my co-host. I'm John Furrier here, live on the floor, wrapping up day two, few more segments, stay with us. We got a lot of action coming. We'll be right back with more after the short break. theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE Live in Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22. John, this is day two of our coverage wall-to-wall three days of coverage on theCUBE. We've been talking a lot about the developer and how the world is starting to really revolve around developer and DevOps portfolios. >> Yes, developers, startups, big companies, all transforming. This next segment, we want to hear from how Dell Technologies cloud natives, big time strategy there and looking forward to it. It's good. It's going to be a great segment. >> Yes, please welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE. Brad Maltz is here, Senior Director of DevOps Portfolio and DevRel for Dell Technologies. Good to see you. >> Thank you guys for having me. >> So, Dell at KubeCon, what's going on? >> Yeah, that's literally the most common question I'm getting. So for us, it's a lot about our customer base is making that transformation into a DevOps world. And they have a ton of Dell and they're like, Hey, from a Dell perspective, how do you help us make that transformation into a DevOps operating model? So we're here to explain that. We're here to talk about infrastructure as code, our container Kubernetes story, our multi-cloud story. We're talking about all of it. >> Tell us about those stories and what the value is in it for companies to work with Dell as they transition. >> So when we look at it from a DevOps perspective for us, it's all about the culture, the operating model shift they're trying to make. And what that means to them is they have to figure out how do they automate all of the stacks they have to deal with. Whether it's going to be server, storage, data protection, network, and all the way up through the hypervisor and Kubernetes. That means they need to work with an ecosystem of tools. Things like Ansible, things like Terraform, all that stuff. Our job is to make our portfolio more consumable in the infrastructure as code space. That's one part of the discussion. The second part of the conversation is Kubernetes won. Kubernetes won the abstraction in this multi-cloud world and we as Dell are helping our customers consume Kubernetes. Whether it's by bringing solutions and more appliance oriented mentality to the market or whether it's actually enabling them with our container storage modules and CSI drivers. >> So it as supercloud as we call or multi-cloud as some people call it, you're starting to see the abstraction for interoperability, but essentially just distributed hybrid cloud. Edge as you guys have a big presence. So Dell's supplying not just the data center anymore. Cloud models are moving to hybrid on-premises, edge is growing. We saw some great use cases where military applications are using Kubernetes and all kinds of new things. So this real examples happening right now. This is going to impact Dell's customers and Dell as a supplier of compute and servers. And the gear that runs everything. Like at a telco, you can have a data center at an edge spot, like a box could be a data center. >> Telco is a great example cause we created the business, the Telco business unit. And in the Telco business unit, our goal was, hey, telco is a little different than enterprise edge. Enterprise edge, retail, manufacturing, healthcare. They have certain needs. Telco, much smaller group of customers that have a much different set of needs. And that's very similar is how do we scale at the edge? How do we control things programmatically? How do we do it in a secure way? And how do we do it so that our people internally don't have to deal with the underpinnings of all that infrastructure. Just make it easier for them. That's our goal through the edge discussions, through telco and all that. >> Yeah. We've been doing a big thing on why hardware matters. Hardware's back. We look at all the hyperscalers, the big competition is faster, faster, faster chips, faster the physics. This is part of the supply chain both hardware and software. Okay. So developers want more power. At the end of the day, this community here wants invisible infrastructure and they want it fast. >> Brad: Yes, that's exactly right. >> There's a lot under the hub. It's still servers. >> You still got firmware, you still got bio, you still got to management operating system, You still got to patch things, kernels, security issues, all of that from a server perspective. We haven't even talked about storage or networking or any of the other stuff. So there's a ton of buttons and dials under the covers. >> And that's totally going to be awesome. And the question comes in, okay, now take me to the cloud native because automation, infrastructures code, these are now the hotspots. Software supply chain, not hardware, software supply chain. So these are all things that are going to be intersecting. What's your view? >> In the multi-cloud view of the world, what we really have are our customers are saying, okay, we started on one cloud, Amazon or Azure or Google. And they're like, you know what? We had to go to a second cloud for whatever reason, many reasons. Now we have to manage two clouds. And by the way, we never got fully off-prem. So now we have all of our on-premises stuff plus multiple clouds. How do we deal with the complexity there? And the complexity there is everything from data problems of data mobility, data protection, replication, all that stuff. How do we deal with the actual application life cycle management across that? And that's where a lot of the tooling we're discussing comes in. That's where Kubernetes comes in and they want to do it in an agnostic way. 'Cause if they can't begin to transition to do it in a standardized layer, then the end of the day they're still going to be managing three totally different environments with three separate engineering teams. >> So is your target audience primarily existing Dell customers, legacy customers, or is it really wide open? >> It's actually been opening up. So we have kind of, the way I view it is we have three different segments that we're going to be going after. We have what I would say is the top 10% of the industry that's really able to skill up into this DevOps world very quickly. They're going to go after the GitOps, they're going to go after all those things. That's a combination of existing customers, but also the really, really large customers that can build their own clouds on-premises. We then have the other end of the spectrum. People that aren't making the shift. People that are like, you know what this DevOps transformation it's not going to help us there, but we still need server and storage and whatnot. And then I like to call it the squishy middle. 60, 70% of the market that's like, we can't scale up in time, we can't hire the people, they're not available 'cause that 10% just got them all, but we still have the same problems. And how do we operate in a world where we have that multi-cloud type of a problem, but we can't find the people. Now you got to figure out more of the no-code, low-code packaged solutions, packaged automation coming from companies like Dell and others. >> So there's customers that are either at the beginning of their journey are not convinced yet. What are some of the barriers that they're seeing that Dell can help them overcome? >> Number one thing, education. >> Lisa: Really? >> We're hearing that consistently here at KubeCon and just customer meetings all over the place. There is a segment of the industry that they're empowered to move into a DevOps model. They don't have the ability or resources. They're not able to say, I've been doing this forever in this way in storage. How do I do that in another thing? And they're scared. They want somebody to come in and kind of handhold them a little bit, but somebody they trust. Somebody they've been working with for a very long time. That's Dell's role. Hands-on labs, training materials, how-to videos, but do it in the comfortable way that they feel like, okay we got this. >> And the success with the customers has been that well-documented. The success with the company, again, continues to survive and thrive in all conditions. So Michael Dell knows what he's doing. Love following his strategy. Michael, if you're watching, I know he watches theCUBE video, congratulations. But now the hard question for Dell is this, the applications used to run on PCs, now they're running PCs under the covers and servers. The application space here at this community is enabled by Kubernetes, is creating a new application runtime like environment. I like, compared to the old app server days when things were like just application specific, development got easier. We're in that renaissance now where the app runtime is being enabled by Kubernetes. You guys been there, done that in the old school, now the new school. What's your view on this Kubernetes? What's Dell's view on? >> Yeah, so back to Kubernetes won in my head. It's just flat out won and part of the reason, and it beat out a lot of things. You remember Cloud Foundry, which there's still a thing, but Cloud Foundry went a little too far up into the application stack and constrained the application developers a bit too much. Kubernetes success is two things. It's because they're not constraining the developer, but they're also figuring out how to enable that IT operations mindset. And they become that happy medium that's out there. So now all of a sudden, application modernization conversations and cloud-native app development, there is a standard package. There's standard load balancing and security paradigm, standard registration mechanisms, all built into the Kubernetes layer, by the way, enabled by an ecosystem. And because they're actually going through that, what's happening now is we can finally move forward. We can take that next step and we can build around that ecosystem of Kubernetes. >> That is thematically something that we've been hearing, John, for the last day and a half is the maturation of Kubernetes People, what's next? We are ready for the next step. Talk about Dell as an enabler of that. >> Yeah, so a funny, another part of that paradigm is Kubernetes does not equal virtualization. And this is a hard one in this industry right now. A lot of people say, well, yeah, we did the VMware pivot and then the KVM and everything else and they're like, this is just another one of those pivots. I'm like, no it's not. Virtualization was the pivot of physical hardware became virtual hardware, but you still thought of it in CPU memory disc and you managed it in the same way. Kubernetes, it's a such a different way of thinking about operationalization and all that abstraction that what we're realizing is people need to take baby steps into Kubernetes right now. The maturity of it is great because there is an ecosystem around it, but the majority of the industry isn't even aware of the basics of Kubernetes right now. So our job, we look at it as the education part, but also can we deliver the solutions together with the OpenShift's of the world and the Tanzu's of the world and the Rancher's of the world. Can we deliver more of that full stack experience going into the next few years? That's where we believe we can help accelerate them. Education and that delivery mechanism. >> And the community support is going to be there too. You got to have the. >> 100%. >> The community, not just education, which you guys done before, but doing it with open source vibe. >> That's where DevRel comes in. So the DevRel half of my world now is all about Dell in the community. And to be part of community isn't just to say, Hey, I'm going to go sponsor something. That's not community to me. >> It doesn't hurt. >> It doesn't hurt, but we're going to do that. We're definitely going to help with that. What our notion is you got to participate, you got to contribute, you got to be there, you got to be part of the community. That's part of my developer relations team is to become part of it. >> You got to be part of it and belong. Belonging is earning. >> Brad: Yes. >> And that's the key. And the other thing we were talking about standards and Dell has won a lot of business 'cause the PC and the servers all had standards, standard components. Standards now in the community are being driven by developer consensus. >> Brad: Yes. >> So that is an interesting new paradigm. So if you make cloud native work where all the hardware and software that's powering the builders is invisible. The developers will tell you what they want. >> 100%. >> And that's why your Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry example is so on point. It's a little bit nuanced, but what happened there is, let's explain Kubernetes was loosely de facto enabling. They didn't try to take too much territory. They didn't over push. >> Brad: Exactly. >> They were very flexible, lightweight at first, but it was enabling. >> It was organic. >> And we called it on theCUBE, I'm not going to lie, we called that early on. So props to us. >> Brad: Good job. >> Pat on the back. >> Lisa: Pat your own back. >> We get it right a lot. But now there's impact though. But the Dell I think speaks to the theme here, which just we talked is that you got startups here. We had from Envoy, we saw the donator there. He started his own company. You got Dell, which has large enterprises running massive workloads with a lot of legacy and modernization. So you got a combination of both coming together. This is going to be a collision of innovation. >> Oh I look, that's exactly right. Part of what I've been getting is not just the end users, the infrastructure developers, and whatnot around here. Startups look, come to Dell, and they're like, why are you here? Like we build this and we don't talk to you. And we're like, why not? If we come to market and start delivering more of those Kubernetes oriented solutions and the Kubernetes stack experience, that's where you guys should be working with us. You're part of the ecosystem. >> Well, your job is to say to them, look it when you want to write your software for the edge and we have market share of the most hardware at the edge, 'cause we perform better on the edge. No one wants to write software on the slower platform. >> No. >> Name me one I want to write software that's just, this is something, but people don't understand that's why you're here. >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> The game is about performance. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Cloud can do it, you can do it with a machine. So it depends where in the distributed computing chain you're at. >> You bring up one topic that actually isn't a core discussion topic around DevOps, but I am seeing more HPC and a AI/ML conversations popping up in this DevOps cloud native space. 'Cause even the market of HPC, which is a very traditional market, commodity server driven in the past, they're starting to say, how do I take advantage of Kubernetes and all of the benefits that we've been talking about. >> What are some of the things that you've heard like in your sense is the key theme or the talk track of Kubernetes, its evolution? What's on the developer's minds the last day and a half at this conference? >> Oh, okay. That's a hard question, but a good one. So the way I look at it is probably it's the robustness of the features within Kubernetes, not the native features, but even partner included features. They just want to be able to handle security in a much more, I hate to say zero trust, but secure cloud native way. There's tools in the Kubernetes ecosystem that are so integrated into Kubernetes. They don't have to think sometimes as much about how do they do it themselves. They can go find through open source or off-the-shelf startup and say, I need that and I can spin it up in about five minutes and now I'm doing that without having to spend weeks or months and having to build that. And that's security is one example. You can go through the networking discussion, you can go through so many different areas. The fact is because of community and the ecosystem, that is the winning formula for Kubernetes to enable the development. That's all I'm hearing here is they're like, give me more, give me more startups, give me more of these technologies. >> And ease of use has been a big topic here. We've been talking before we came on camera about VMware has done great since it used the virtual machine example versus Kubernetes. That is millions of developers and operators on VMware. They have about 200,000 plus just in VMUG alone. So they are going to transform their careers. They're looking for a home. They're looking for a community for the next 10 years. I mean, VMware will still be around with Broadcom, but I'm speculating that it will be much more in maintenance mode. But to get someone's career in fourth gear, fifth gear, you got to go and get that next skill set, and that's the question. Where do all these operators, IT operators go to become enterprise operators? >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> That is a big topic. What's your reaction? >> Sp I'm actually a living proof of that. I grew up in the VMware ecosystem. And for me making that pivot, it took me many years. One of the ways I did that was I actually have run in Dell, our advanced development pivotal Dojos, if you remember Pivotal. >> Yes. >> And doing the Pair Programming in Agile. It took me that mental shift to say, okay, we were doing it that way and now there's a new way to do it through code with developers and using all the new buzzwords. And that pivot is different for somebody that's just starting now, and they don't have access to a Dojo that they can go handle like a whole bunch of pair programmers. How do they make that pivot? That's 100% what we have to do. >> Okay, so my question is this, this is a hard question for you, maybe you can answer or not or maybe you can. What's different now than the attempt in the past from Dell EMC to do work or align with the developers? I think, was it five, six years ago, it was an effort. Was it timing? What's different now from then? >> So that attempt was awesome. That team was great. I was very close to that team and that was from the EMC side originally is where they have built that out. And the notion of that was that we just have to go start contributing knowledge and technology into the community and start really taking the brand and trying to expand the brand to be relevant in that community. Nothing wrong. That was actually an amazing way they did it. I think through the merger there was definitely a little bit of, okay, well, maybe this isn't one of our top priorities right now and that's probably what happened through the actual merger. >> John: It's a little bit distraction. >> It was distraction. >> Timings wasn't as good now. >> You try merging a 67 billion merger. I mean it's just really hard to do. What happened here is I think we finally got past a lot of that with the merger and now we're in steady stage/growth mode, which is a notion that now we can go and do this again in the new world, taking our lessons learned from what we did before, and try to actually go and update that in these new power apps. >> And you could point to some specific timing issues. Like at that time this community wasn't as advanced along. Kubernetes wasn't as clear. Visibility to that value proposition. Although a lot of people were speculating what happened that way. >> Exactly. >> But now with multi-cloud, I think developers starting to see the reality that it ain't going to be one cloud. >> Well, multi-cloud is not one cloud, so 100%. >> Well, I mean there's multi-cloud today, but it's really not multi-cloud by the way it could be. The people have multiple clouds. I think that gives developers comfort that existing enterprise players. Remember Microsoft wasn't really in the cloud game six, seven years ago. Look where they are now. Significant progress, nipping at the heels of AWS. So all the enterprise players are back at the table. >> Brad: Yeah, definitely. We're here. >> And that's timing issue. >> We're here. >> Talk about, you're here, you are helping customers get to the basics of Kubernetes. You talked a lot about the importance of the education. >> Brad: Yes. >> That screams to me that Dell can be a facilitator of cultural change within organizations, whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer or whatnot. Another thing that I'm curious about, what you guys are doing, how you've evolved, Dell is a massive partner ecosystem. How is the partner ecosystem involved in helping customers build their DevOps portfolios and really start embracing, understanding, and learning about Kubernetes? >> So that's an ever changing world right now. And that's part of why we're here at KubeCon is to help expand that. We have a very, very strong partner community. Not even just channel, but like technology partner community. And our goal is to understand with our DevOps portfolio what needs to be the next step of that partner community. Do we have to go partner up with like the, I'll use examples, the Solo.io. Do we have to partner up with all the mesh companies, the HashiCorp, which we are, We have to understand where the layers that make sense and where don't. There are some that don't make sense because they're so often to an app developer land or they're so far above even Kubernetes sometimes that maybe they don't make sense in our partner community. >> How influential are, I know we got to go soon, but how influential are your customers in helping to make some of those decisions? It's all about the customer at the end of the day. >> They're the only one that's deciding for us. They have to come to us. We have to see the need. We have to understand the discussions through our sales mechanisms, our other mechanisms. We're using that data every single day, every hour to make those decisions. >> Awesome. Brad, it's been great to have you. Sorry we took more of your time than we planned, but it was so interesting. >> No, this is awesome. >> Dell at KubeCon, you've done a great job of explaining why that absolutely resonates, the relevance, and why customers should be looking at Dell as their partner for this. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. >> Thank you guys. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit, Michigan. Stick around, our next guest will be here in just a minute. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The technology spending outlook is not pretty and very much unpredictable right now. The negative sentiment is of course being driven by the macroeconomic factors in earnings forecasts that have been coming down all year in an environment of rising interest rates. And what's worse, is many people think earnings estimates are still too high. But it's understandable why there's so much uncertainty. I mean, technology is still booming, digital transformations are happening in earnest, leading companies have momentum and they got cash runways. And moreover, the CEOs of these leading companies are still really optimistic. But strong guidance in an environment of uncertainty is somewhat risky. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights Powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we share takeaways from ETR'S latest spending survey, which was released to their private clients on October 21st. Today, we're going to review the macro spending data. We're going to share where CIOs think their cloud spend is headed. We're going to look at the actions that organizations are taking to manage uncertainty and then review some of the technology companies that have the most positive and negative outlooks in the ETR data set. Let's first look at the sample makeup from the latest ETR survey. ETR captured more than 1300 respondents in this latest survey. Its highest figure for the year and the quality and seniority of respondents just keeps going up each time we dig into the data. We've got large contributions as you can see here from sea level executives in a broad industry focus. Now the survey is still North America centric with 20% of the respondents coming from overseas and there is a bias toward larger organizations. And nonetheless, we're still talking well over 400 respondents coming from SMBs. Now ETR for those of you who don't know, conducts a quarterly spending intention survey and they also do periodic drilldowns. So just by the way of review, let's take a look at the expectations in the latest drilldown survey for IT spending. Before we look at the broader technology spending intentions survey data, followers of this program know that we reported on this a couple of weeks ago, spending expectations that peaked last December at 8.3% are now down to 5.5% with a slight uptick expected for next year as shown here. Now one CIO in the ETR community said these figures could be understated because of inflation. Now that's an interesting comment. Real GDP in the US is forecast to be around 1.5% in 2022. So these figures are significantly ahead of that. Nominal GDP is forecast to be significantly higher than what is shown in that slide. It was over 9% in June for example. And one would interpret that survey respondents are talking about real dollars which reflects inflationary factors in IT spend. So you might say, well if nominal GDP is in the high single digits this means that IT spending is below GDP which is usually not the case. But the flip side of that is technology tends to be deflationary because prices come down over time on a per unit basis, so this would be a normal and even positive trend. But it's mixed right now with prices on hard to find hardware, they're holding more firms. Software, you know, software tends to be driven by lock in and competition and switching costs. So you have those countervailing factors. Services can be inflationary, especially now as wages rise but certain sectors like laptops and semis and NAND are seeing less demand and maybe even some oversupply. So the way to look at this data is on a relative basis. In other words, IT buyers are reporting 280 basis point drop in spending sentiment from the end of last year. Now, something that we haven't shared from the latest drilldown survey which we will now is how IT bar buyers are thinking about cloud adoption. This chart shows responses from 419 IT execs from that drilldown and depicts the percentage of workloads their organizations have in the cloud today and what the expectation is through years from now. And you can see it's 27% today and it's nearly 50% in three years. Now the nuance is if you look at the question, that ETRS, it's they asked about IaaS and PaaS, which to some could include on-prem. Now, let me come back to that. In particular, financial services, IT, telco and retail and services industry cited expectations for the future for three years out that we're well above the average of the mean adoption levels. Regardless of how you interpret this data there's most certainly plenty of public cloud in the numbers. And whether you believe cloud is an operating environment or a place out there in the cloud, there's plenty of room for workloads to move into a cloud model well beyond mid this decade. So you know, as ho hum as we've been toward recent as-a-service models announced from the likes of HPE with GreenLake and Dell with APEX, the timing of those offerings may be pretty good actually. Now let's expand on some of the data that we showed a couple weeks ago. This chart shows responses from 282 execs on actions their organizations are taking over the next three months. And the Deltas are quite traumatic from the early part of this charter than the left hand side. The brown line is hiring freezes, the black line is freezing IT projects, and the green line is hiring increases and that red line is layoffs. And we put a box around the sort of general area of the isolation economy timeframe. And you can see the wild swings on this chart. By mid last summer, people were kickstarting things and more hiring was going on and the black line shows IT project freezes, you know, came way down. And now, or on the way back up as our hiring freezes. So we're seeing these wild swings in organizational actions and strategies which underscores the lack of predictability. As with supply chains around the world, this is likely due to the fact that organizations, pre pandemic they were optimized for efficiency, not a lot of waste rather than business resilience. Meaning, you know, there's again not a lot of fluff in the system or if there was it got flushed out during the pandemic. And so the need for productivity and automation is becoming increasingly important, especially as actions that solely rely on headcount changes are very, very difficult to manage. Now, let's dig into some of the vendor commentary and take a look at some of the names that have momentum and some of the others possibly facing headwinds. Here's a list of companies that stand out in the ETR survey. Snowflake, once again leads the pack with a positive spending outlook. HashiCorp, CrowdStrike, Databricks, Freshworks and ServiceNow, they round out the top six. Microsoft, they seem to always be in the mix, as do a number of other security and related companies including CyberArk, Zscaler, CloudFlare, Elastic, Datadog, Fortinet, Tenable and to a certain extent Akamai, you can kind of put them sort of in that group. You know, CDN, they got to worry about security. Everybody worries about security, but especially the CDNs. Now the other software names that are highlighted here include Workday and Salesforce. On the negative side, you can see Dynatrace saw some negatives in the latest survey especially around its analytics business. Security is generally holding up better than other sectors but it's still seeing greater levels of pressure than it had previously. So lower spend. And defections relative to its observability peers, that's really for Dynatrace. Now the other one that was somewhat surprising is IBM. You see the IBM was sort of in that negative realm here but IBM reported an outstanding quarter this past week with double digit revenue growth, strong momentum in software, consulting, mainframes and other infrastructure like storage. It's benefiting from the Kyndryl restructuring and it's on track IBM to deliver 10 billion in free cash flow this year. Red Hat is performing exceedingly well and growing in the very high teens. And so look, IBM is in the midst of a major transformation and it seems like a company that is really focused now with hybrid cloud being powered by Red Hat and consulting and a decade plus of AI investments finally paying off. Now the other big thing we'll add is, IBM was once an outstanding acquire of companies and it seems to be really getting its act together on the M&A front. Yes, Red Hat was a big pill to swallow but IBM has done a number of smaller acquisitions, I think seven this year. Like for example, Turbonomic, which is starting to pay off. Arvind Krishna has the company focused once again. And he and Jim J. Kavanaugh, IBM CFO, seem to be very confident on the guidance that they're giving in their business. So that's a real positive in our view for the industry. Okay, the last thing we'd like to do is take 12 of the companies from the previous chart and plot them in context. Now these companies don't necessarily compete with each other, some do. But they are standouts in the ETR survey and in the market. What we're showing here is a view that we like to often show, it's net score or spending velocity on the vertical axis. And it's a measure, that's a measure of the net percentage of customers that are spending more on a particular platform. So ETR asks, are you spending more or less? They subtract less from the mores. I mean I'm simplifying, but that's what net score is. Now in the horizontal axis, that is a measure of overlap which is which measures presence or pervasiveness in the dataset. So bigger the better. We've inserted a table that informs how the dots in the companies are positioned. These companies are all in the green in terms of net score. And that right most column in the table insert is indicative of their presence in the dataset, the end. So higher, again, is better for both columns. Two other notes, the red dotted line there you see at 40%. Anything over that indicates an highly elevated spending momentum for a given platform. And we purposefully took Microsoft out of the mix in this chart because it skews the data due to its large size. Everybody else would cluster on the left and Microsoft would be all alone in the right. So we take them out. Now as we noted earlier, Snowflake once again leads with a net score of 64%, well above the 40% line. Having said that, while adoption rates for Snowflake remains strong the company's spending velocity in the survey has come down to Earth. And many more customers are shifting from where they were last year and the year before in growth mode i.e. spending more year to year with Snowflake to now shifting more toward flat spending. So a plus or minus 5%. So that puts pressure on Snowflake's net score, just based on the math as to how ETR calculates, its proprietary net score methodology. So Snowflake is by no means insulated completely to the macro factors. And this was seen especially in the data in the Fortune 500 cut of the survey for Snowflake. We didn't show that here, just giving you anecdotal commentary from the survey which is backed up by data. So, it showed steeper declines in the Fortune 500 momentum. But overall, Snowflake, very impressive. Now what's more, note the position of Streamlit relative to Databricks. Streamlit is an open source python framework for developing data driven, data science oriented apps. And it's ironic that it's net score and shared in is almost identical to those of data bricks, as the aspirations of Snowflake and Databricks are beginning to collide. Now, however, the Databricks net score has held up very well over the past year and is in the 92nd percentile of its machine learning and AI peers. And while it's seeing some softness, like Snowflake in the Fortune 500, Databricks has steadily moved to the right on the X axis over the last several surveys even though it was unable to get to the public markets and do an IPO during the lockdown tech bubble. Let's come back to the chart. ServiceNow is impressive because it's well above the 40% mark and it has 437 shared in on this cut, the largest of any company that we chose to plot here. The only real negative on ServiceNow is, more large customers are keeping spending levels flat. That's putting a little bit pressure on its net score, but that's just conservatives. It's kind of like Snowflakes, you know, same thing but in a larger scale. But it's defections, the ServiceNow as in Snowflake as well. It's defections remain very, very low, really low churn below 2% for ServiceNow, in fact, within the dataset. Now it's interesting to also see Freshworks hit the list. You can see them as one of the few ITSM vendors that has momentum and can potentially take on ServiceNow. Workday, on this chart, it's the other big app player that's above the 40% line and we're only showing Workday HCM, FYI, in this graphic. It's Workday Financials, that offering, is below the 40% line just for reference. Now let's talk about CrowdStrike. We attended Falcon last month, CrowdStrike's user conference and we're very impressed with the product visio, the company's execution, it's growing partnerships. And you can see in this graphic, the ETR survey data confirms the company's stellar performance with a net score at 50%, well above the 40% mark. And importantly, more than 300 mentions. That's second only to ServiceNow, amongst the 12 companies that we've chosen to highlight here. Only Microsoft, which is not shown here, has a higher net score in the security space than CrowdStrike. And when it comes to presence, CrowdStrike now has caught up to Splunk in terms of pervasion in the survey. Now CyberArk and Zscaler are the other two security firms that are right at that 40% red dotted line. CyberArk for names with over a hundred citations in the security sector, is only behind Microsoft and CrowdStrike. Zscaler for its part in the survey is seeing strong momentum in the Fortune 500, unlike what we said for Snowflake. And its pervasion on the X-axis has been steadily increasing. Again, not that Snowflake and CrowdStrike compete with each other but they're too prominent names and it's just interesting to compare peers and business models. Cloudflare, Elastic and Datadog are slightly below the 40% mark but they made the sort of top 12 that we showed to highlight here and they continue to have positive sentiment in the survey. So, what are the big takeaways from this latest survey, this really quick snapshot that we've taken. As you know, over the next several weeks we're going to dig into it more and more. As we've previously reported, the tide is going out and it's taking virtually all the tech ships with it. But in many ways the current market is a story of heightened expectations coming down to Earth, miscalculations about the economic patterns and the swings and imperfect visibility. Leading Barclays analyst, Ramo Limchao ask the question to guide or not to guide in a recent research note he wrote. His point being, should companies guide or should they be more cautious? Many companies, if not most companies, are actually giving guidance. Indeed, when companies like Oracle and IBM are emphatic about their near term outlook and their visibility, it gives one confidence. On the other hand, reasonable people are asking, will the red hot valuations that we saw over the last two years from the likes of Snowflake, CrowdStrike, MongoDB, Okta, Zscaler, and others. Will they return? Or are we in for a long, drawn out, sideways exercise before we see sustained momentum? And to that uncertainty, we add elections and public policy. It's very hard to predict right now. I'm sorry to be like a two-handed lawyer, you know. On the one hand, on the other hand. But that's just the way it is. Let's just say for our part, we think that once it's clear that interest rates are on their way back down and we'll stabilize it under 4% and we have clarity on the direction of inflation, wages, unemployment and geopolitics, the wild swings and sentiment will subside. But when that happens is anyone's guess. If I had to peg, I'd say 18 months, which puts us at least into the spring of 2024. What's your prediction? You know, it's almost that time of year. Let's hear it. Please keep in touch and let us know what you think. Okay, that's it for now. Many thanks to Alex Myerson. He is on production and he manages the podcast for us. Ken Schiffman as well is our newest addition to the Boston Studio. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoff is our EIC, editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE. He does some wonderful editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes, they are available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante. Or feel free to comment on our LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai. They've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. If you haven't checked that out, you should. It'll give you an advantage. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights Powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. Be well and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (soft upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Virtually all tech companies have expressed caution in their respective earnings calls, and why not? I know you're sick in talking about the macroeconomic environment, but it's full of uncertainties and there's no upside to providing aggressive guidance when sellers are in control. They punish even the slightest miss. Moreover, the spending data confirms the softening market across the board, so it's becoming expected that CFOs will guide cautiously. But companies facing execution challenges, they can't hide behind the macro, which is why it's important to understand which firms are best positioned to maintain momentum through the headwinds and come out the other side stronger. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis," we'll do three things. First, we're going to share a high-level view of the spending pinch that almost all sectors are experiencing. Second, we're going to highlight some of those companies that continue to show notably strong momentum and relatively high spending velocity on their platforms, albeit less robust than last year. And third, we're going to give you a peak at how one senior technology leader in the financial sector sees the competitive dynamic between AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks. So I landed on the red eye this morning and opened my eyes, and then opened my email to see this. My Barron's Daily had a headline telling me how bad things are and why they could get worse. The S&P Thursday hit a new closing low for the year. The safe haven of bonds are sucking wind. The market hasn't seemed to find a floor. Central banks are raising rates. Inflation is still high, but the job market remains strong. Oh, not to mention that the US debt service is headed toward a trillion dollars per year, and the geopolitical situation is pretty tense, and Europe seems to be really struggling. Yeah, so the Santa Claus rally is really looking pretty precarious, especially if there's a liquidity crunch coming, like guess why they call Barron's Barron's. Last week, we showed you this graphic ahead of the UiPath event. For months, the big four sectors, cloud, containers, AI, and RPA, have shown spending momentum above the rest. Now, this chart shows net score or spending velocity on specific sectors, and these four have consistently trended above the 40% red line for two years now, until this past ETR survey. ML/AI and RPA have decelerated as shown by the squiggly lines, and our premise was that they are more discretionary than the other sectors. The big four is now the big two: cloud and containers. But the reality is almost every sector in the ETR taxonomy is down as shown here. This chart shows the sectors that have decreased in a meaningful way. Almost all sectors are now below the trend line and only cloud and containers, as we showed earlier, are above the magic 40% mark. Container platforms and container orchestration are those gray dots. And no sector has shown a significant increase in spending velocity relative to October 2021 survey. In addition to ML/AI and RPA, information security, yes, security, virtualizations, video conferencing, outsourced IT, syndicated research. Syndicated research, yeah, those Gartner, IDC, Forrester, they stand out as seemingly the most discretionary, although we would argue that security is less discretionary. But what you're seeing is a share shift as we've previously reported toward modern platforms and away from point tools. But the point is there is no sector that is immune from the macroeconomic environment. Although remember, as we reported last week, we're still expecting five to 6% IT spending growth this year relative to 2021, but it's a dynamic environment. So let's now take a look at some of the key players and see how they're performing on a relative basis. This chart shows the net score or spending momentum on the y-axis and the pervasiveness of the vendor within the ETR survey measured as the percentage of respondents citing the vendor in use. As usual, Microsoft and AWS stand out because they are both pervasive on the x-axis and they're highly elevated on the vertical axis. For two companies of this size that demonstrate and maintain net scores above the 40% mark is extremely impressive. Although AWS is now showing much higher on the vertical scale relative to Microsoft, which is a new trend. Normally, we see Microsoft dominating on both dimensions. Salesforce is impressive as well because it's so large, but it's below those two on the vertical axis. Now, Google is meaningfully large, but relative to the other big public clouds, AWS and Azure, we see this as disappointing. John Blackledge of Cowen went on CNBC this past week and said that GCP, by his estimates, are 75% of Google Cloud's reported revenue and is now only five years behind AWS in Azure. Now, our models say, "No way." Google Cloud Platform, by our estimate, is running at about $3 billion per quarter or more like 60% of Google's reported overall cloud revenue. You have to go back to 2016 to find AWS running at that level and 2018 for Azure. So we would estimate that GCP is six years behind AWS and four years behind Azure from a revenue performance standpoint. Now, tech-wise, you can make a stronger case for Google. They have really strong tech. But revenue is, in our view, a really good indicator. Now, we circle here ServiceNow because they have become a generational company and impressively remain above the 40% line. We were at CrowdStrike with theCUBE two weeks ago, and we saw firsthand what we see as another generational company in the making. And you can see the company spending momentum is quite impressive. Now, HashiCorp and Snowflake have now surpassed Kubernetes to claim the top net score spots. Now, we know Kubernetes isn't a company, but ETR tracks it as though it were just for context. And we've highlighted Databricks as well, showing momentum, but it doesn't have the market presence of Snowflake. And there are a number of other players in the green: Pure Storage, Workday, Elastic, JFrog, Datadog, Palo Alto, Zscaler, CyberArk, Fortinet. Those last ones are in security, but again, they're all off their recent highs of 2021 and early 2022. Now, speaking of AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks, our colleague Eric Bradley of ETR recently held an in-depth interview with a senior executive at a large financial institution to dig into the analytics space. And there were some interesting takeaways that we'd like to share. The first is a discussion about whether or not AWS can usurp Snowflake as the top dog in analytics. I'll let you read this at your at your leisure, but I'll pull out some call-outs as indicated by the red lines. This individual's take was quite interesting. Note the comment that quote, this is my area of expertise. This person cited AWS's numerous databases as problematic, but Redshift was cited as the closest competitors to Snowflake. This individual also called out Snowflake's current cross-cloud Advantage, what we sometimes call supercloud, as well as the value add in their marketplace as a differentiator. But the point is this person was actually making, the point that this person was actually making is that cloud vendors make a lot of money from Snowflake. AWS, for example, see Snowflake as much more of a partner than a competitor. And as we've reported, Snowflake drives a lot of EC2 and storage revenue for AWS. Now, as well, this doesn't mean AWS does not have a strong marketplace. It does. Probably the best in the business, but the point is Snowflake's marketplace is exclusively focused on a data marketplace and the company's challenge or opportunity is to build up that ecosystem and to continue to add partners and create network effects that allow them to create long-term sustainable moat for the company, while at the same time, staying ahead of the competition with innovation. Now, the other comment that caught our attention was Snowflake's differentiators. This individual cited three areas. One, the well-known separation of compute and storage, which, of course, AWS has replicated sort of, maybe not as elegant in the sense that you can reduce the compute load with Redshift, but unlike Snowflake, you can't shut it down. Two, with Snowflake's data sharing capability, which is becoming quite well-known and a key part of its value proposition. And three, its marketplace. And again, key opportunity for Snowflake to build out its ecosystem. Close feature gaps that it's not necessarily going to deliver on its own. And really importantly, create governed and secure data sharing experiences for anyone on the data cloud or across clouds. Now, the last thing this individual addressed in the ETR interview that we'll share is how Databricks and Snowflake are attacking a similar problem, i.e. simplifying data, data sharing, and getting more value from data. The key messages here are there's overlap with these two platforms, but Databricks appeals to a more techy crowd. You open a notebook, when you're working with Databricks, you're more likely to be a data scientist, whereas with Snowflake, you're more likely to be aligned with the lines of business within sometimes an industry emphasis. We've talked about this quite often on "Breaking Analysis." Snowflake is moving into the data science arena from its data warehouse strength, and Databricks is moving into analytics and the world of SQL from its AI/ML position of strength, and both companies are doing well, although Snowflake was able to get to the public markets at IPO, Databricks has not. Now, even though Snowflake is on the quarterly shock clock as we saw earlier, it has a larger presence in the market. That's at least partly due to the tailwind of an IPO, and, of course, a stronger go-to market posture. Okay, so we wanted to share some of that with you, and I realize it's a bit of a tangent, but it's good stuff from a qualitative practitioner perspective. All right, let's close with some final thoughts. Look forward a little bit. Things in the short-term are really hard to predict. We've seen these oversold rallies peter out for the last couple of months because the world is such a mess right now, and it's really difficult to reconcile these counterveiling trends. Nothing seems to be working from a public policy perspective. Now, we know tech spending is softening, but let's not forget it, five to 6% growth. It's at or above historical norms, but there's no question the trend line is down. That said, there are certain growth companies, several mentioned in this episode, that are modern and vying to be generational platforms. They're well-positioned, financially sound, disciplined, with strong cash positions, with inherent profitability. What I mean by that is they can dial down growth if they wanted to, dial up EBIT, but being a growth company today is not what it was a year ago. Because of rising rates, the discounted cash flows are just less attractive. So earnings estimates, along with revenue multiples on these growth companies, are reverting toward the mean. However, companies like Snowflake, and CrowdStrike, and some others are able to still command a relative premium because of their execution and continued momentum. Others, as we reported last week, like UiPath for example, despite really strong momentum and customer spending, have had execution challenges. Okta is another example of a company with strong spending momentum, but is absorbing off zero for example. And as a result, they're getting hit harder from evaluation standpoint. The bottom line is sellers are still firmly in control, the bulls have been humbled, and the traders aren't buying growth tech or much tech at all right now. But long-term investors are looking for entry points because these generational companies are going to be worth significantly more five to 10 years down the line. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching this "Breaking Analysis" episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson and Ken Schiffman on production. And Alex manages our podcast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight. They help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE do some wonderful editing for us, so thank you. Thank you all. Remember that all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. All you do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com, or DM me @dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out etr.ai for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to "theCUBE." Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of VMware Explore. John and I are pleased to welcome back one of our alumni, Muddu Sudhakar, the CEO of AISERA. Welcome to the program, Muddu. It's great to meet you. >> Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for having me. Thank you, John. >> Great to see you again. You're like an industry analyst coming on "theCUBE". You should be like a guest analyst, breaking down. I know you got your own company to run, and by the way, the recent funding you had, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> In a market that's not getting a lot of funding. You get an up around. Congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> Business is good? >> Very good, thank you. Look, Goldman Sachs Investing, along with Zoom and Thoma Bravo, it was great for us. >> Great stuff. Well, I'm glad we could get you in. This day three, Lisa and I and Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson have all been talking to everyone for two days here at VMware Explore, formerly VMworld, our 12th year covering their annual conference, as you know, and we've been telling the executives, but day three is more of, we're going to mix it up. We're going to bring people in and get their opinions about Supercloud, does VMware go post-Broadcom? Obviously, that's going to happen. Looks like nothing's going to stop that from happening. What's next? What's the impact? Who wins? Who loses? VMware certainly not acting like they're going to get gutted. They're all full throttle ahead. They're laying down some announcements, vSphere 8, you got vSAN 8, they got cloud-native, they're talking multi-cloud. VMware's not looking like they're flinching. What's going on, in your view, outside of the bubble that we're here in San Francisco, out in the real world, in the trenches. What are people talking about? What do you see? >> Lot to unpack. (all laugh) >> Start at wherever you want. >> Yes. You know, I was a VMware alumni too. >> Yes >> You sold the company to VMware. You know the inside. Okay, So then, even then- >> I worked with Paul and Pat and Raghu. It's great to be back at VMware now. I think there's a lot going on in VMware. VMware is here to stay. The brand will stay. The VMware customers will stay for years to come. I think Broadcom and VMware, I think it's a great industry consolidation, the way in which I see it. And it is going to help all the customers too, right? Broadcom, having such a large foot play into both CA, the software business, the hardware business. I think what will happen is that Broadcom will try to create a hybrid cloud of their own with VMware. So there'll be a fourth player in the cloud industry. And then back to John, your Supercloud. The Supercloud by definition, there'll be private clouds, public clouds, hybrid clouds. I think Broadcom with VMware will help your vision of the Supercloud and what your customers are asking. >> Yeah, one of the things I want to get your thoughts on, Lisa and I were talking yesterday with the executives, AJ Patel in particular, he's a middleware guy. >> Right. >> So what he did was Oracle. He did a lot of the fusion stuff at Oracle. He now runs Modern Apps. And you came in at the time, I think, when they were just getting that app vision going, and Paul Moritz actually had it early with his 2010 vision, but too early on the app side. But that ended up happening too. So the question is, is Broadcom going to be this middleware layer, and treat the cloud like hardware. And then, apps or apps. Companies are apps. In a digital transformation, technology is the company. >> Right >> So the company is the app. >> That's right, >> Is an application. So apps and hardware, middle, a middleware model emerging. Do you think they're going for that? Or am I just making this up in my head? >> No, I think to me, I see Broadcom as much more, they're like a peer company at the high level. So they're funded by- >> Like a private equity company. >> Private equity company. >> You mean from a dollar standpoint. >> From a dollar standpoint. So Broadcom is going to fund companies. They're going to buy companies. They bought CA, they bought all the other assets. So Broadcom will have always hardware. The middle level could be VMware, but they also have CA, right? They have a bunch of apps here. So I see the Broadcom is also using VMware to run applications. So the consolidation will be they'll create a Supercloud using VMware. They're going to own their own apps. I don't think Broadcom's story is stopped. Its journey to come. They're going to buy more acquisitions, more apps companies. I won't be surprised, in the future, they buy Zendesk. I won't be surprised, in the future, they buy other apps companies, SaaS companies and cloud enterprise companies. Right? So that's where the P is coming. So the broad conversion is, I need a base middleware, like you're saying. There's no other middleware on top of hardware better than VMware. >> So do you think that they'll keep the stuff that's coming out of the other? 'Cause we've been speculating on "theCUBE" this week. They have the core business, but there's all this stuff that's kind of coming out of the oven that's not EBITDA-oriented yet. Do you think they keep that or they let it go? >> I think that's a great question to hang their CEO of Broadcom. But to me, I think, knowing them, they're going to keep, and if you look at Symantec, they kept parts of Symantec, this whole parts of it. So I think all options are on the table for them, right? They'll do whatever it is. But I think it has to be the ones that high growth companies they may give it. It all goes back to is it a profitability to it or not? But his vision is very good. I want to own the middleware, right? He will own the middleware using VMware to your vision, create a Supercloud and own the apps. So I think you'll see Broadcom is the fourth vendor in the cloud race. You have Microsoft, AWS, Google, and Broadcom is actually going to compete with this four. >> So you think there'll be a hyper scale? They'll be in the top three or four. >> There'll be top four. >> Okay. >> Along with Oracle. So now, we are talking about the five vendors will be Amazon, Azure, Google, Oracle, and Broadcom. >> We had Amazon guy on, Steve Jones. I should have asked him that question. I just don't see that happening yet. They have to have the full hardware side. How do you see that coming in? 'Cause Amazon's innovating at the atom level and they're working on stuff that's physical, transit, physics stuff, like down to the root level. >> I think Broadcom figure, look, they own the chips out right, at the end of the day. They also have a lot of chips such to supply to both mobile and this. So if there's anybody who can figure out the hardware, it will be Broadcom. That is their core of area. They didn't have the core in the software and the middleware. VMware is going to give them the OS, the Kubernetes, the VMs. Once you have that layer, I think you can innovate both up and below, right? So I think, John, I think Broadcom VMware will be a force to reckon with and I think these guys are going to get into healthcare space though. So if you see the way they battle, you and me are talking Lisa, like Microsoft bought new ones, Oracle bought Cerner. So they all paid 30 billion each. So the next battle ground will be, they'll start in the healthcare industry. Somebody's going to go look at the healthcare apps like Epic, right? They're going to look at how we can do the hospitals. They're going to look at hospital healthcare professionals. That area will be disrupted a lot in the same. >> What other industries do you think, besides healthcare, are ripe for disruption with Broadcom VMware? >> I think endpoint management, like remember VMware bought AirWatch when I was there back then, right? That whole area is called digital experience management. So that endpoint mainly will be disrupted. So Broadcom with VMware will go again into endpoint. I'm talking endpoint could be the servers, desktops, VMware Max, right? Virtual Desktop VDI. So that whole management of mobile devices to desktop, that whole industry will be disrupted. A lot of players are there trying to do more consulting services. I think VMware is a great assets and tools. If I'm Broadcom, my chip sets are going into the endpoint. So that area will be disrupted a lot with Broadcom in VMware. >> Yeah, one of the things that VMware, people have been talking about, is that the CA acquisition that Broadcom did was the playbooks public. Everyone saw what they did. They killed sales and market and they killed all the execs, metaphorically speaking. They fired them. VMware's got a different vibe here. I'm feeling like it could go one way or the other. I think they should keep them, personally. But you don't know. If they're a PE company, they EBIDA driven, maybe it's just simply numbers. >> Right. >> If that's the case, then I'm worried. But VMware's got pride, they got mojo, and they've got expertise in software. Maybe a little bit different circumstance? What's take on this? Or do you think it's going to be black and white to the numbers? >> I think, knowing Hank's playbook, if he knows what he's going to do, right? His playbook will be consistent with Symantec. >> You think he already knows what he wants to do? >> I think so. I think at that level, both with Simulink and Broadcom, they already know the playbook. At this stage the games, people already know their game. It's like a chess move. They already know. They'll look at VMware and see which assets to keep, which one not to keep, which organization, but I think Hank is a master at this one. To me, I'm personally excited with the VMware Broadcom combination. It's a great thing for the industry. It's great for VMware and VMware customers and partners. >> Well, John, you and Dave had a chance to sit down with Raghu. What were some of the things that he unpacked about the Broadcom acquisition? >> He was on talking points. He was on message. He was saying the things that any CEO was going to make a lot of cash on this deal. And he's proud. I think it wasn't about the money for him. I sensed that he's certainly going to make a lot of cash on this deal as an executive, but he's a long time VMware employee and a well loved and revered person. He's done a lot of great work, technically set the agenda. So I think their mindset is we're going to just continue to do an amazing job as VMware as we are and then let Broadcom, let the chips fall where they may, and hopefully, if they do a good job, maybe they'll either refactor some of their base plans or they laid it all out in the field, so to speak. So that's my vibe. Now specifically, he made some comments, like, "Yeah, we're really proud." And he staying technical. He's still like, "This is really happening." So I think he's going to, essentially, to the very end, be like, "Cross cloud and hybrid cloud. This is our third generation." So there he's hanging onto the VMware third act that they're saying, and he hopes that it comes home. And I think he's going to just deal with it. He didn't seem flustered and he didn't seem overly confident. >> Okay. >> I guess that's my opinion. What do you think? >> Personally worked with Raghu, worked for Raghu, so I think of him as the greatest CEO for VMware ever could have, right? It's a journey. It was Paul Maritz, then Pat Gelsinger, now Raghu. I think he's in the right place, right time to lead VMware, and Raghu's doing a fantastic job. And personally, getting these two companies married, I think Raghu did the right partnership with Broadcom. >> Well, I think if this event's any indication if they're just sitting back and waiting, they're not, and this event was well done, it was pulled off. The branding's amazing. I thought they did a good job with the name change. And then in light of all the Broadcom issues, the execution was great. It was not a bad show here. It was a good show. It wasn't terrible at all. People were excited. I think the ecosystem also felt that Broadcom, like an electronic shock to the system, like something's going to happen. Let's wait and see. I'm going to go to the event to see if it's going to be around and kind of getting a feel first party, in person, what's happening. Again, remember VMware didn't have an event since 2019. This is a community that thrives on physical, face to face camaraderie, community. And so, I think the show was a success. And I think that's a result of Raghu and his team. >> Because we have a booth there for AISERA, my company, we have a booth. We are offering coffee and donuts. You guys should come by and tell people. You'll get a free coffee and a donut, but it's one of the best shows I've seen. Well, I think people after pandemic are back, people are interacting. We have 500 people in one day at our booth. So for a startup company like us, getting that much crowd is unheard of. So it's great. We're very excited. >> The vibe from the partner community, I had a chance to talk with a lot of partners, AWS, NetApp, Rackspace, really seems like the partnerships side of VMware is very, very strong and the partners are excited about what's next for VMware. Did you have a chance to talk with any of the partners? >> Actually, look. I'm actually meeting with Karen. So Karen Egan is my contact at VMware too, and Sumit, (indistinct) a bunch of the customer success organization. We talk to people in their digital experience management team. We are very excited to be partner with both VMware's customer, partner, and all experts, right? I'll need the VMware ecosystem for my company to thrive. So for us, VMware customers are my customers and leveraging VMware APIs into VMware, that's that's important for us. >> Lisa, that's a great question because that brings us to the question of, okay, clearly this show also proves to us from our conversations and exploring the floor, the wave is coming. This next cloud wave is here. We're calling it Supercloud, whatever you want to call it, it's coming and it's real, and people know it. And also the lines of sight into economics around where people can fit in this next level ecosystem is becoming clear. So I think people kind of know what's the right side of the street to be on in this next shift. So that's coming. That's independent of Broadcom. So the floor represents to me the excitement for not only the VMware workload powering software, with or without Broadcom, but the next wave. So the question is if Broadcom goes down their path and Hank does what he does, who wins and who loses on where things flow? Because this energy is going to flow somewhere. Is it going to flow to AWS? Is it going to flow to Microsoft? Is it going to flow to HPE with Green Lake getting some great traction? NetApp's doing great. We just heard from them. So the partners aren't hurting. It's only going to get better. re:Invent's right around the corner. That's a packed house. Their ecosystem's growing like a weed. Who wins? 'Cause the customers at VMware are enterprise customers. They're used to being serviced. They have sales reps from Microsoft, they got sales reps from Hewlett Packard Enterprise, real senior enterprise stakeholders there. So someone's going to end up filling in as VMware settles into their broad composition. Who wins and who loses, in your mind? >> A Very good question. So my thing is, I think it's... Well, I put Microsoft and Amazon the winners. In that way, actually mean Microsoft will win because in a true Supercloud, your vision, back to hybrid cloud on-prem and public cloud, VMware disruption with Broadcom, as if there's any bridge in the market, Microsoft will take advantage of it. Azure, right? Amazon VMware is there. Then, you have Google and VMware. So I think Azure will probably try to take advantage of this, but very next will be Amazon, right away there. That leaves you with Google Cloud, right? Google Cloud is the one. So they're the people that are able to figure out what to do in this equation. And then, obviously, the other one is Oracle. Oracle has no hearts in this game. So to me, the people who are going to probably lose impact model will be Oracle if the Broadcom and VMware will happen. So it's Azure, Amazon winning the race, probably Google is right behind them. Oracle will be distinct. Other side is Dell. Actually, Dell has no game in this. Our Broadcom and VMware, Dell should be the one. >> Dell might have a little secret sauce on the table with Michael Dell. >> That's true. >> If he convert his shares, he might be the largest shareholder at Broadcom. >> That's true. >> He could end up owning all the back. >> So he may be the winner all the time. (all laugh) >> Don't count him out. Well, this is a good question. I want to just double click on this. So you get customer dynamic. Where do they go? You get the community, which is a big force multiplier in this world, and if you had to bet on community between Microsoft and Amazon Web Services, Amazon trumps Microsoft on force multiplier community. Ecosystem, AWS beats Microsoft on that one. So it's interesting because it's now multiple dimensions we're talking about here. It's customers. That's the top order, right? The customers. But also, you got community, the people who put on sessions, the people in the community that are the influencers that are leading the trends, and developers are very trending, relative to what kind of code they use, what's their environments? So the developers is changing that landscape and, ultimately, the ecosystem of partners, right? 'Cause there's a lot more overlap between AWS and VMware's ecosystem than there is between Microsoft and that. And HPE is just starting an ecosystem. So it's going to be very interesting. >> It is. It is. I think Broadcom and VMware cannot be any best time for the industry, right? As you said. HP is coming in. Oracle is coming in. And to your point, VMware and AWS are another best partners. Now, this going to create any gap for Microsoft to enter for Azure? I think that's where the market is saying that it's going to open up a hybrid cloud player for Microsoft to enter what is to be a tight relationship with VMware and Amazon. Right? So people will rethink through their apps. And more importantly, the end point to me. See, the key is, like you talk about with Supercloud, nobody's talking about Supercloud for the endpoint. >> You mean Edge or security? >> Not an Edge endpoint. Endpoint could be your devices, laptop, desktop. >> Or a building or a light bulb or whatever. >> Desktop or VDI desktop services servers, right? So we call it endpoint cloud. There's no endpoint Supercloud. John, that's an area that you should double click on. Super cloud for the servers is different from Supercloud for endpoint. >> Well, SuperCloud.World is the URL out there. If you're interested in Supercloud, we are adding tracks to that body of work. So we had our event on August 9th. It was virtual event, where Dave and I are going to add a data track, we're going to add a security track, and we should add, maybe, an endpoint workspace, work. >> That's a VMware brand, Workspace and Horizon. So that whole workspace endpoint for Supercloud is going to happen. >> Yes. >> Right. That kind of deviates from- >> Do you like Supercloud? Are you bullish on Supercloud? >> I'm very bullish on Supercloud because I, myself, is running on-prem in VPCs, public clouds, private clouds. Supercloud kind of composites it so app should be designed. 'Cause I don't want to design an app for one cloud. It's not going to work. So it's like how Java came and I can run it on any platform. The ideas you build it on Supercloud, run it, whatever you want. Right? >> That's exactly it. So what would you want to see in Supercloud as it evolves? And we were part of this open conversation. This is our point for today. We're going to have a great panel come up later today. We're going to have the influencers come on to debate what Supercloud should or shouldn't be. If you want to add to the contribution, we'll add this into the work, what should what's needed in Supercloud? What's table stakes. >> I think we need a Java compiler that will happen for Supercloud. I build it once, execute in any place I want, right? Using the Terraform, HashiCorp (indistinct) So what I don't want is keep building this thing for every cloud. I want to abstract that out. The whole idea of Supercloud is how Java gave me the abstraction for hardware 20 years back or 30 years back, we need the same abstraction for the cloud today. Otherwise, I'm customizing for VM Cloud, I'm customizing for AWS, Azure, Google Cloud. We, as an application vendor, it's too hard to keep doing it. I have now thousand tuners. I don't need thousand DevOps people. I need maybe 10 DevOps people. So there's a clear abstraction complexity that industry should develop, and your concept Supercloud with everybody thinking that, and it has to start from the grassroots with ecosystem. >> What do you think about the participants in this abstraction layer? Because someone said on "theCUBE" here this week, the people in the abstraction layer shouldn't be participants in the below or above the abstraction. >> I think it should be everybody, right? It's all inclusive. You need the apps guys to come in. You need the OS players to come in. You need the cloud vendors to come in, infrastructure. So you need everybody. >> Okay, let's just say that you were the spokesperson for the Supercloud organization, Supercloud.World. How would you sell AWS on why it's important for them? >> It's because they can build it and sell it in AWS and multiple AWS Gov Cloud, AWS On-prem, VPCs. It's even important for them, their expansion, their market time upfront. If I'm (indistinct), if I'm built on Supercloud, I can increase my time share. Otherwise I'm bringing only to public cloud. >> Okay, so I'll say, I'm Amazon and we have a concept called "One Way Doors." We don't want to go through a one way door. Is Supercloud a one way door for them? What's in it for them? Do they make more? Does it help their ecosystem? And the same question from Microsoft Azure and Google cloud. >> They're make more money. They're making their apps run in multiple places. It's a natural expansion. You are solving your customer problems for Amazon and DGC, right? My job is give people choices. I give choice to Lisa. Lisa can run it on public cloud. John, you can run it on VPC, AWS. >> So you're saying, so you think customers are asking for this right now? >> Everybody's asking. >> But don't really know how to say it? >> Customers are asking. Partners are asking. All of us are asking. >> Okay, what's the ask? >> Ask is give me a one place to build applications and run it anywhere without adding the complexity. >> Okay. Done. That's Supercloud. It'll ship tomorrow. (Lisa laughs) Well done. (John laughs) All right, well done. Final question for you. Lisa and I have been talking with folks here. What advice would you give the folks that are in here? 'Cause we have a lot of activity, people with marketing their solutions and products. They're trying to put a voice out there around thought leadership and trying to figure out what side of the street they should be on relative to the next 10 years as they're here at VMware Explore, as the next gen cloud comes around. What's the right narrative? What's the right positioning for companies to be on right now to be the most relevant and in the flow? >> I don't know about 10 years, but right now we are in difficult economic times, right? Markets are down. Inflation is up. So I think the fastest cost, people should focus on cost. How can it take cost? Automation is the key, right? Whether you use AI or automation , like you and me talking, John, last week, right? That's important. Every CEO I talk to is focused on cost. How do I cut my cost? How can I do with fewer resources? How can I do with fewer people, right? So the new budget right now is cut your budget in half. So every company, every exec should think about how can you be a good citizen? How can I get growth and scale? How can I do more with less? And that should be the next 12 months. >> That was a lot of the theme of conversations that I had with the VMware ecosystem, doing more with less. So that's definitely on everyone's minds. >> Right, and that's what my company is fully focused on. AISERA is all about AI automation. How can we solve your thing? We want to be solving customer problem. We are like your automation engine for your enterprise, right? We are a platform of platform. That's why I like the Supercloud. I can run AISERA as a platform on top of Supercloud. >> Excellent. >> Wow! If only we had more time! I know that you guys could really dig into Supercloud and take it even further. So you have to come back, Muddu. >> I will. >> He always wants to come back. >> I will be back. >> He's on the team. He's has contributed to the open source effort of Supercloud. Thank you. >> Yes. >> All right, thank you so much for joining John and me and kind of breaking down your vision on VMware Broadcom and the future. Next step, we've got to get some customers on here. I really want to understand what the customer experience is going to be like, but we'll have to another segment on that one. >> We will do that. Thank you, Lisa, for having me. >> My pleasure. >> John. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE" live on day three of our coverage of VMware Explore. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat corporate music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone to CUBE Supercloud 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great influencer, Cloud Cloud RRT segment with Sarbjeet Johal, Cloud influencer, Cloud economist, Cloud consultant, Cloud advisor. Sarbjeet, welcome back, CUBE alumni. Good to see you. >> Thanks John and nice to be here. >> Now, what's your title? Cloud consultant? Analyst? >> Consultant, actually. Yeah, I'm launching my own business right now formally, soon. It's in stealth mode right now, we'll be (inaudible) >> Well, I'll just call you a Cloud guru, Cloud influencer. You've been great, friend of theCUBE. Really powerful on social. You share a lot of content. You're digging into all the trends. Supercloud is a thing, it's getting a lot of traction. We introduced that concept last reinvent. We were riffing before that. As we kind of were seeing the structural change that is now Supercloud, it really is kind of the destination or outcome of what we're seeing with hybrid cloud as a steady state into the what's now, they call multicloud, which is kind of awkward. It feels like it's default. Like multicloud, multi-vendor, but Supercloud has much more of a comprehensive abstraction around it. What's your thoughts? >> As you said, as Dave says that too, the Supercloud has that abstraction built into it. It's built on top of cloud, right? So it's being built on top of the CapEx which is being spent by likes of AWS and Azure and Google Cloud, and many others, right? So it's leveraging that infrastructure and building software stack on top of that, which is a platform. I see that as a platform being built on top of infrastructure as code. It's another platform which is not native to the cloud providers. So it's like a kind of cross-Cloud platform. That's what I said. >> Yeah, VMware calls it that cloud-cross cloud. I'm not a big fan of the name but I get what you're saying. We had a segment on earlier with Adrian Cockcroft, Laurie McVety and Chris Wolf, all part of the Cloud RRT like ourselves, and you've involved in Cloud from day one. Remember the OpenStack days Early Cloud, AWS, when they started we saw the trajectory and we saw the change. And I think the OpenStack in those early days were tell signs because you saw the movement of API first but Amazon just grew so fast. And then Azure now is catching up, their CapEx is so large that companies like Snowflake's like, "Why should I build my own? "I just sit on top of AWS, "move fast on one native cloud, then figure it out." Seems to be one of the playbooks of the Supercloud. >> Yeah, that is true. And there are reasons behind that. And I think number one reason is the skills gravity. What I call it, the developers and/or operators are trained on one set of APIs. And I've said that many times, to out compete your competition you have to out educate the market. And we know which cloud has done that. We know what traditional vendor has done that, in '90s it was Microsoft, they had VBS number one language and they were winning. So in the cloud era, it's AWS, their marketing efforts, their go-to market strategy, the micro nature of the releasing the micro sort of features, if you will, almost every week there's a new feature. So they have got it. And other two are trying to mimic that and they're having low trouble light. >> Yeah and I think GCP has been struggling compared to the three and native cloud on native as you're right, completely successful. As you're caught up and you see the Microsoft, I think is a a great selling point around multiple clouds. And the question that's on the table here is do you stay with the native cloud or you jump right to multicloud? Now multicloud by default is kind of what I see happening. We've been debating this, I'd love to get your thoughts because, Microsoft has a huge install base. They've converted to Office 365. They even throw SQL databases in there to kind of give it a little extra bump on the earnings but I've been super critical on their numbers. I think their shares are, there's clearly overstating their share, in my opinion, compared to AWS is a need of cloud, Azure though is catching up. So you have customers that are happy with Microsoft, that are going to run their apps on Azure. So if a customer has Azure and Microsoft that's technically multiple clouds. >> Yeah, true. >> And it's not a strategy, it's just an outcome. >> Yeah, I see Microsoft cloud as friendly to the internal developers. Internal developers of enterprises. but AWS is a lot more ISV friendly which is the software shops friendly. So that's what they do. They just build software and give it to somebody else. But if you're in-house developer and you have been a Microsoft shop for a long time, which enterprise haven't been that, right? So Microsoft is well entrenched into the enterprise. We know that, right? >> Yeah. >> For a long time. >> Yeah and the old joke was developers love code and just go with a lock in and then ops people don't want lock in because they want choice. So you have the DevOps movement that's been successful and they get DevSecOps. The real focus to me, I think, is the operating teams because the ops side is really with the pressure vis-a-vis. I want to get your reaction because we're seeing kind of the script flip. DevOps worked, infrastructure's code has worked. We don't yet see security as code yet. And you have things like cloud native services which is all developer, goodness. So I think the developers are doing fine. Give 'em a thumbs up and open source's booming. So they're shifting left, CI/CD pipeline. You have some issues around repo, monolithic repos, but devs are doing fine. It's the ops that are now have to level up because that seems to be a hotspot. What's your take? What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if you say you agree, why? >> Yeah, I think devs are doing fine because some of the devs are going into ops. Like the whole movement behind DevOps culture is that devs and ops is one team. The people who are building that application they're also operating that as well. But that's very foreign and few in enterprise space. We know that, right? Big companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Twitter, those guys can do that. They're very tech savvy shops. But when it comes to, if you go down from there to the second tier of enterprises, they are having hard time with that. Once you create software, I've said that, I sound like a broken record here. So once you create piece of software, you want to operate it. You're not always creating it. Especially when it's inhouse software development. It's not your core sort of competency to. You're not giving that software to somebody else or they're not multiple tenants of that software. You are the only user of that software as a company, or maybe maximum to your employees and partners. But that's where it stops. So there are those differences and when it comes to ops, we have to still differentiate the ops of the big companies, which are tech companies, pure tech companies and ops of the traditional enterprise. And you are right, the ops of the traditional enterprise are having tough time to cope up with the changing nature of things. And because they have to run the old traditional stacks whatever they happen to have, SAP, Oracle, financial, whatnot, right? Thousands of applications, they have to run that. And they have to learn on top of that, new scripting languages to operate the new stack, if you will. >> So for ops teams do they have to spin up operating teams for every cloud specialized tooling, there's consequences to that. >> Yeah. There's economics involved, the process, if you are learning three cloud APIs and most probably you will end up spending a lot more time and money on that. Number one, number two, there are a lot more problems which can arise from that, because of the differences in how the APIs work. The rule says if you pick one primary cloud and then you're focused on that, and most of your workloads are there, and then you go to the secondary cloud number two or three on as need basis. I think that's the right approach. >> Well, I want to get your take on something that I'm observing. And again, maybe it's because I'm old school, been around the IT block for a while. I'm observing the multi-vendors kind of as Dave calls the calisthenics, they're out in the market, trying to push their wears and convincing everyone to run their workloads on their infrastructure. multicloud to me sounds like multi-vendor. And I think there might not be a problem yet today so I want to get your reaction to my thoughts. I see the vendors pushing hard on multicloud because they don't have a native cloud. I mean, IBM ultimately will probably end up being a SaaS application on top of one of the CapEx hyperscale, some say, but I think the playbook today for customers is to stay on one native cloud, run cloud native hybrid go in on OneCloud and go fast. Then get success and then go multiple clouds. versus having a multicloud set of services out of the gate. Because if you're VMware you'd love to have cross cloud abstraction layer but that's lock in too. So what's your lock in? Success in the marketplace or vendor access? >> It's tricky actually. I've said that many times, that you don't wake up in the morning and say like, we're going to do multicloud. Nobody does that by choice. So it falls into your lab because of mostly because of what MNA is. And sometimes because of the price to performance ratio is better somewhere else for certain kind of workloads. That's like foreign few, to be honest with you. That's part of my read is, that being a developer an operator of many sort of systems, if you will. And the third tier which we talked about during the VMworld, I think 2019 that you want vendor diversity, just in case one vendor goes down or it's broken up by feds or something, and you want another vendor, maybe for price negotiation tactics, or- >> That's an op mentality. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And that's true, they want choice. They want to get locked in. >> You want choice because, and also like things can go wrong with the provider. We know that, we focus on top three cloud providers and we sort of assume that they'll be there for next 10 years or so at least. >> And what's also true is not everyone can do everything. >> Yeah, exactly. So you have to pick the provider based on all these sort of three sets of high level criteria, if you will. And I think the multicloud should be your last choice. Like you should not be gearing up for that by default but it should be by design, as Chuck said. >> Okay, so I need to ask you what does Supercloud in my opinion, look like five, 10 years out? What's the outcome of a good Supercloud structure? What's it look like? Where did it come from? How did it get there? What's your take? >> I think Supercloud is getting born in the absence of having standards around cloud. That's what it is. Because we don't have standards, we long, or we want the services at different cloud providers, Which have same APIs and there's less learning curve or almost zero learning curve for our developers and operators to learn that stuff. Snowflake is one example and VMware Stack is available at different cloud providers. That's sort of infrastructure as a service example if you will. And snowflake is a sort of data warehouse example and they're going down the stack. Well, they're trying to expand. So there are many examples like that. What was the question again? >> Is Supercloud 10 years out? What does it look like? What's the components? >> Yeah, I think the Supercloud 10 years out will expand because we will expand the software stack faster than the hardware stack and hardware stack will be expanding of course, with the custom chips and all that. There was the huge event yesterday was happening from AWS. >> Yeah, the Silicon. >> Silicon Day. And that's an eyeopening sort of movement and the whole technology consumption, if you will. >> And yeah, the differentiation with the chips with supply chain kind of herding right now, we think it's going to be a forcing function for more cloud adoption. Because if you can't buy networking gear you going to go to the cloud. >> Yeah, so Supercloud to me in 10 years, it will be bigger, better in the likes of HashiCorp. Actually, I think we need likes of HashiCorp on the infrastructure as a service side. I think they will be part of the Supercloud. They are kind of sitting on the side right now kind of a good vendor lost in transition kind of thing. That sort of thing. >> It's like Kubernetes, we'll just close out here. We'll make a statement. Is Kubernetes a developer thing or an infrastructure thing? It's an ops thing. I mean, people are coming out and saying Kubernetes is not a developer issue. >> It's ops thing. >> It's an ops thing. It's in operation, it's under the hood. So you, again, this infrastructure's a service integrating this super pass layer as Dave Vellante and Wikibon call it. >> Yeah, it's ops thing, actually, which enables developers to get that the Azure service, like you can deploy your software in sort of different format containers, and then you don't care like what VMs are those? And, but Serverless is the sort of arising as well. It was hard for a while now it's like the lull state, but I think Serverless will be better in next three to five years on. >> Well, certainly the hyperscale is like AWS and Azure and others have had great CapEx and investments. They need to stay ahead, in your opinion, final question, how do they stay ahead? 'Cause, AWS is not going to stand still nor will Azure, they're pedaling as fast as they can. Google's trying to figure out where they fit in. Are they going to be a real cloud or a software stack? Same with Oracle. To me, it's really, the big race is now with AWS and Azure's nipping at their heels. Hyperscale, what do they need to do to differentiate going forward? >> I think they are in a limbo. They, on one side, they don't want to compete with their customers who are sitting on top of them, likes of Snowflake and others, right? And VMware as well. But at the same time, they have to keep expanding and keep innovating. And they're debating within their themselves. Like, should we compete with these guys? Should we launch similar sort of features and functionality? Or should we keep it open? And what I have heard as of now that internally at AWS, especially, they're thinking about keeping it open and letting people sort of (inaudible)- >> And you see them buying some the Cerner with Oracle that bought Cerner, Amazon bought a healthcare company. I think the likes of MongoDB, Snowflake, Databricks, are perfect examples of what we'll see I think on the AWS side. Azure, I'm not so sure, they like to have a little bit more control at the top of the stack with the SaaS, but I think Databricks has been so successful open source, Snowflake, a little bit more proprietary and closed than Databricks. They're doing well is on top of data, and MongoDB has got great success. All of these things compete with AWS higher level services. So, that advantage of those companies not having the CapEx investment and then going multiple clouds on other ecosystems that's a path of customers. Stay one, go fast, get traction, then go. >> That's huge. Actually the last sort comment I want to make is that, Also, that you guys include this in the definition of Supercloud, the likes of Capital One and Soner sort of vendors, right? So they are verticals, Capital One is in this financial vertical, and then Soner which Oracle bar they are in this healthcare vertical. And remember in the beginning of the cloud and when the cloud was just getting born. We used to say that we will have the community clouds which will be serving different verticals. >> Specialty clouds. >> Specialty clouds, community clouds. And actually that is happening now at very sort of small level. But I think it will start happening at a bigger level. The Goldman Sachs and others are trying to build these services on the financial front risk management and whatnot. I think that will be- >> Well, what's interesting, which you're bringing up a great discussion. We were having discussions around these vertical clouds like Goldman Sachs Capital One, Liberty Mutual. They're going all in on one native cloud then going into multiple clouds after, but then there's also the specialty clouds around functionality, app identity, data security. So you have multiple 3D dimensional clouds here. You can have a specialty cloud just on identity. I mean, identity on Amazon is different than Azure. Huge issue. >> Yeah, I think at some point we have to distinguish these things, which are being built on top of these infrastructure as a service, in past with a platform, a service, which is very close to infrastructure service, like the lines are blurred, we have to distinguish these two things from these Superclouds. Actually, what we are calling Supercloud maybe there'll be better term, better name, but we are all industry path actually, including myself and you or everybody else. Like we tend to mix these things up. I think we have to separate these things a little bit to make things (inaudible) >> Yeah, I think that's what the super path thing's about because you think about the next generation SaaS has to be solved by innovations of the infrastructure services, to your point about HashiCorp and others. So it's not as clear as infrastructure platform, SaaS. There's going to be a lot of interplay between this levels of services. >> Yeah, we are in this flasker situation a lot of developers are lost. A lot of operators are lost in this transition and it's just like our economies right now. Like I was reading at CNBC today, and here's sort of headline that people are having hard time understanding what state the economy is in. And so same is true with our technology economy. Like we don't know what state we are in. It's kind of it's in the transition phase right now. >> Well we're definitely in a bad economy relative to the consumer market. I've said on theCUBE publicly, Dave has as well, not as aggressive. I think the tech is still in a boom. I don't think there's tech bubble at all that's bursting, I think, the digital transformation from post COVID is going to continue. And this is the first recession downturn where the hyperscalers have been in market, delivering the economic value, almost like they're pumping on all cylinders and going to the next level. Go back to 2008, Amazon web services, where were they? They were just emerging out. So the cloud economic impact has not been factored into the global GDP relationship. I think all the firms that are looking at GDP growth and tech spend as a correlation, are completely missing the boat on the fact that cloud economics and digital transformation is a big part of the new economics. So refactoring business models this is continuing and it's just the early days. >> Yeah, I have said that many times that cloud works good in the bad economy and cloud works great in the good economy. Do you know why? Because there are different type of workloads in the good economy. A lot of experimentation, innovative solutions go into the cloud. You can do experimentation that you have extra money now, but in the bad economy you don't want to spend the CapEx because don't have money. Money is expensive at that point. And then you want to keep working and you don't need (inaudible) >> I think inflation's a big factor too right now. Well, Sarbjeet, great to see you. Thanks for coming into our studio for our stage performance for Supercloud 22, this is a pilot episode that we're going to get a consortium of experts Cloud RRT like yourselves, in the conversation to discuss what the architecture is. What is a taxonomy? What are the key building blocks and what things need to be in place for Supercloud capability? Because it's clear that if without standards, without defacto standards, we're at this tipping point where if it all comes together, not all one company can do everything. Customers want choice, but they also want to go fast too. So DevOps is working. It's going the next level. We see this as Supercloud. So thank you so much for your participation. >> Thanks for having me. And I'm looking forward to listen to the other sessions (inaudible) >> We're going to take it on A stickers. We'll take it on the internet. I'm John Furrier, stay tuned for more Supercloud 22 coverage, here at the Palo Alto studios in one minute. (bright music)