>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone. Welcome back to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Got a great conversation around Cloud Native, Cloud Native Journey, how enterprises are looking at Cloud Native and putting it all together. And it comes down to operations, developer productivity, and security. It's the hottest topic in technology. We got Chris Jones here in the studio, director of Product Management for Platform9. Chris, thanks for coming in. >> Hey, thanks. >> So when we always chat about, when we're at KubeCon. KubeConEU is coming up and in a few, in a few months, the number one conversation is developer productivity. And the developers are driving all the standards. It's interesting to see how they just throw everything out there and whatever gets adopted ends up becoming the standard, not the old school way of kind of getting stuff done. So that's cool. Security Kubernetes and Containers are all kind of now that next level. So you're starting to see the early adopters moving to the mainstream. Enterprises, a variety of different approaches. You guys are at the center of this. We've had a couple conversations with your CEO and your tech team over there. What are you seeing? You're building the products. What's the core product focus right now for Platform9? What are you guys aiming for? >> The core is that blend of enabling your infrastructure and PlatformOps or DevOps teams to be able to go fast and run in a stable environment, but at the same time enable developers. We don't want people going back to what I've been calling Shadow IT 2.0. It's, hey, I've been told to do something. I kicked off this Container initiative. I need to run my software somewhere. I'm just going to go figure it out. We want to keep those people productive. At the same time we want to enable velocity for our operations teams, be it PlatformOps or DevOps. >> Take us through in your mind and how you see the industry rolling out this Cloud Native journey. Where do you see customers out there? Because DevOps have been around, DevSecOps is rocking, you're seeing AI, hot trend now. Developers are still in charge. Is there a change to the infrastructure of how developers get their coding done and the infrastructure, setting up the DevOps is key, but when you add the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise, what changes? What is the, what is the, I guess what is the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise these days? >> The Cloud Native journey or the change? When- >> Let's start with the, let's start with what they want to do. What's the goal and then how does that happen? >> I think the goal is that promise land. Increased resiliency, better scalability, and overall reduced costs. I've gone from physical to virtual that gave me a higher level of density, packing of resources. I'm moving to Containers. I'm removing that OS layer again. I'm getting a better density again, but all of a sudden I'm running Kubernetes. What does that, what does that fundamentally do to my operations? Does it magically give me scalability and resiliency? Or do I need to change what I'm running and how it's running so it fits that infrastructure? And that's the reality, is you can't just take a Container and drop it into Kubernetes and say, hey, I'm now Cloud Native. I've got reduced cost, or I've got better resiliency. There's things that your engineering teams need to do to make sure that application is a Cloud Native. And then there's what I think is one of the largest shifts of virtual machines to containers. When I was in the world of application performance monitoring, we would see customers saying, well, my engineering team have this Java app, and they said it needs a VM with 12 gig of RAM and eight cores, and that's what we gave it. But it's running slow. I'm working with the application team and you can see it's running slow. And they're like, well, it's got all of its resources. One of those nice features of virtualization is over provisioning. So the infrastructure team would say, well, we gave it, we gave it all a RAM it needed. And what's wrong with that being over provisioned? It's like, well, Java expects that RAM to be there. Now all of a sudden, when you move to the world of containers, what we've got is that's not a set resource limit, really is like it used to be in a VM, right? When you set it for a container, your application teams really need to be paying attention to your resource limits and constraints within the world of Kubernetes. So instead of just being able to say, hey, I'm throwing over the fence and now it's just going to run on a VM, and that VMs got everything it needs. It's now really running on more, much more of a shared infrastructure where limits and constraints are going to impact the neighbors. They are going to impact who's making that decision around resourcing. Because that Kubernetes concept of over provisioning and the virtualization concept of over provisioning are not the same. So when I look at this problem, it's like, well, what changed? Well, I'll do my scale tests as an application developer and tester, and I'd see what resources it needs. I asked for that in the VM, that sets the high watermark, job's done. Well, Kubernetes, it's no longer a VM, it's a Kubernetes manifest. And well, who owns that? Who's writing it? Who's setting those limits? To me, that should be the application team. But then when it goes into operations world, they're like, well, that's now us. Can we change those? So it's that amalgamation of the two that is saying, I'm a developer. I used to pay attention, but now I need to pay attention. And an infrastructure person saying, I used to just give 'em what they wanted, but now I really need to know what they've wanted, because it's going to potentially have a catastrophic impact on what I'm running. >> So what's the impact for the developer? Because, infrastructure's code is what everybody wants. The developer just wants to get the code going and they got to pay attention to all these things, or don't they? Is that where you guys come in? How do you guys see the problem? Actually scope the problem that you guys solve? 'Cause I think you're getting at I think the core issue here, which is, I've got Kubernetes, I've got containers, I've got developer productivity that I want to focus on. What's the problem that you guys solve? >> Platform operation teams that are adopting Cloud Native in their environment, they've got that steep learning curve of Kubernetes plus this fundamental change of how an app runs. What we're doing is taking away the burden of needing to operate and run Kubernetes and giving them the choice of the flexibility of infrastructure and location. Be that an air gap environment like a, let's say a telco provider that needs to run a containerized network function and containerized workloads for 5G. That's one thing that we can deploy and achieve in a completely inaccessible environment all the way through to Platform9 running traditionally as SaaS, as we were born, that's remotely managing and controlling your Kubernetes environments on-premise AWS. That hybrid cloud experience that could be also Bare Metal, but it's our platform running your environments with our support there, 24 by seven, that's proactively reaching out. So it's removing a lot of that burden and the complications that come along with operating the environment and standing it up, which means all of a sudden your DevOps and platform operations teams can go and work with your engineers and application developers and say, hey, let's get, let's focus on the stuff that, that we need to be focused on, which is running our business and providing a service to our customers. Not figuring out how to upgrade a Kubernetes cluster, add new nodes, and configure all of the low level. >> I mean there are, that's operations that just needs to work. And sounds like as they get into the Cloud Native kind of ops, there's a lot of stuff that kind of goes wrong. Or you go, oops, what do we buy into? Because the CIOs, let's go, let's go Cloud Native. We want to, we got to get set up for the future. We're going to be Cloud Native, not just lift and shift and we're going to actually build it out right. Okay, that sounds good. And when we have to actually get done. >> Chris: Yeah. >> You got to spin things up and stand up the infrastructure. What specifically use case do you guys see that emerges for Platform9 when people call you up and you go talk to customers and prospects? What's the one thing or use case or cases that you guys see that you guys solve the best? >> So I think one of the, one of the, I guess new use cases that are coming up now, everyone's talking about economic pressures. I think the, the tap blows open, just get it done. CIO is saying let's modernize, let's use the cloud. Now all of a sudden they're recognizing, well wait, we're spending a lot of money now. We've opened that tap all the way, what do we do? So now they're looking at ways to control that spend. So we're seeing that as a big emerging trend. What we're also sort of seeing is people looking at their data centers and saying, well, I've got this huge legacy environment that's running a hypervisor. It's running VMs. Can we still actually do what we need to do? Can we modernize? Can we start this Cloud Native journey without leaving our data centers, our co-locations? Or if I do want to reduce costs, is that that thing that says maybe I'm repatriating or doing a reverse migration? Do I have to go back to my data center or are there other alternatives? And we're seeing that trend a lot. And our roadmap and what we have in the product today was specifically built to handle those, those occurrences. So we brought in KubeVirt in terms of virtualization. We have a long legacy doing OpenStack and private clouds. And we've worked with a lot of those users and customers that we have and asked the questions, what's important? And today, when we look at the world of Cloud Native, you can run virtualization within Kubernetes. So you can, instead of running two separate platforms, you can have one. So all of a sudden, if you're looking to modernize, you can start on that new infrastructure stack that can run anywhere, Kubernetes, and you can start bringing VMs over there as you are containerizing at the same time. So now you can keep your application operations in one environment. And this also helps if you're trying to reduce costs. If you really are saying, we put that Dev environment in AWS, we've got a huge amount of velocity out of it now, can we do that elsewhere? Is there a co-location we can go to? Is there a provider that we can go to where we can run that infrastructure or run the Kubernetes, but not have to run the infrastructure? >> It's going to be interesting too, when you see the Edge come online, you start, we've got Mobile World Congress coming up, KubeCon events we're going to be at, the conversation is not just about public cloud. And you guys obviously solve a lot of do-it-yourself implementation hassles that emerge when people try to kind of stand up their own environment. And we hear from developers consistency between code, managing new updates, making sure everything is all solid so they can go fast. That's the goal. And that, and then people can get standardized on that. But as you get public cloud and do it yourself, kind of brings up like, okay, there's some gaps there as the architecture changes to be more distributed computing, Edge, on-premises cloud, it's cloud operations. So that's cool for DevOps and Cloud Native. How do you guys differentiate from say, some the public cloud opportunities and the folks who are doing it themselves? How do you guys fit in that world and what's the pitch or what's the story? >> The fit that we look at is that third alternative. Let's get your team focused on what's high value to your business and let us deliver that public cloud experience on your infrastructure or in the public cloud, which gives you that ability to still be flexible if you want to make choices to run consistently for your developers in two different locations. So as I touched on earlier, instead of saying go figure out Kubernetes, how do you upgrade a hundred worker nodes in place upgrade. We've solved that problem. That's what we do every single day of the week. Don't go and try to figure out how to upgrade a cluster and then upgrade all of the, what I call Kubernetes friends, your core DNSs, your metrics server, your Kubernetes dashboard. These are all things that we package, we test, we version. So when you click upgrade, we've already handled that entire process. So it's saying don't have your team focused on that lower level piece of work. Get them focused on what is important, which is your business services. >> Yeah, the infrastructure and getting that stood up. I mean, I think the thing that's interesting, if you look at the market right now, you mentioned cost savings and recovery, obviously kind of a recession. I mean, people are tightening their belts for sure. I don't think the digital transformation and Cloud Native spend is going to plummet. It's going to probably be on hold and be squeezed a little bit. But to your point, people are refactoring looking at how to get the best out of what they got. It's not just open the tap of spend the cash like it used to be. Yeah, a couple months, even a couple years ago. So okay, I get that. But then you look at the what's coming, AI. You're seeing all the new data infrastructure that's coming. The containers, Kubernetes stuff, got to get stood up pretty quickly and it's got to be reliable. So to your point, the teams need to get done with this and move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 'Cause there's more coming. I mean, there's a lot coming for the apps that are building in Data Native, AI-Native, Cloud Native. So it seems that this Kubernetes thing needs to get solved. Is that kind of what you guys are focused on right now? >> So, I mean to use a customer, we have a customer that's in AI/ML and they run their platform at customer sites and that's hardware bound. You can't run AI machine learning on anything anywhere. Well, with Platform9 they can. So we're enabling them to deliver services into their customers that's running their AI/ML platform in their customer's data centers anywhere in the world on hardware that is purpose-built for running that workload. They're not Kubernetes experts. That's what we are. We're bringing them that ability to focus on what's important and just delivering their business services whilst they're enabling our team. And our 24 by seven proactive management are always on assurance to keep that up and running for them. So when something goes bump at the night at 2:00am, our guys get woken up. They're the ones that are reaching out to the customer saying, your environments have a problem, we're taking these actions to fix it. Obviously sometimes, especially if it is running on Bare Metal, there's things you can't do remotely. So you might need someone to go and do that. But even when that happens, you're not by yourself. You're not sitting there like I did when I worked for a bank in one of my first jobs, three o'clock in the morning saying, wow, our end of day processing is stuck. Who else am I waking up? Right? >> Exactly, yeah. Got to get that cash going. But this is a great use case. I want to get to the customer. What do some of the successful customers say to you for the folks watching that aren't yet a customer of Platform9, what are some of the accolades and comments or anecdotes that you guys hear from customers that you have? >> It just works, which I think is probably one of the best ones you can get. Customers coming back and being able to show to their business that they've delivered growth, like business growth and productivity growth and keeping their organization size the same. So we started on our containerization journey. We went to Kubernetes. We've deployed all these new workloads and our operations team is still six people. We're doing way more with growth less, and I think that's also talking to the strength that we're bringing, 'cause we're, we're augmenting that team. They're spending less time on the really low level stuff and automating a lot of the growth activity that's involved. So when it comes to being able to grow their business, they can just focus on that, not- >> Well you guys do the heavy lifting, keep on top of the Kubernetes, make sure that all the versions are all done. Everything's stable and consistent so they can go on and do the build out and provide their services. That seems to be what you guys are best at. >> Correct, correct. >> And so what's on the roadmap? You have the product, direct product management, you get the keys to the kingdom. What is, what is the focus? What's your focus right now? Obviously Kubernetes is growing up, Containers. We've been hearing a lot at the last KubeCon about the security containers is getting better. You've seen verification, a lot more standards around some things. What are you focused on right now for at a product over there? >> Edge is a really big focus for us. And I think in Edge you can look at it in two ways. The mantra that I drive is Edge must be remote. If you can't do something remotely at the Edge, you are using a human being, that's not Edge. Our Edge management capabilities and being in the market for over two years are a hundred percent remote. You want to stand up a store, you just ship the server in there, it gets racked, the rest of it's remote. Imagine a store manager in, I don't know, KFC, just plugging in the server, putting in the ethernet cable, pressing the power button. The rest of all that provisioning for that Cloud Native stack, Kubernetes, KubeVirt for virtualization is done remotely. So we're continuing to focus on that. The next piece that is related to that is allowing people to run Platform9 SaaS in their data centers. So we do ag app today and we've had a really strong focus on telecommunications and the containerized network functions that come along with that. So this next piece is saying, we're bringing what we run as SaaS into your data center, so then you can run it. 'Cause there are many people out there that are saying, we want these capabilities and we want everything that the Platform9 control plane brings and simplifies. But unfortunately, regulatory compliance reasons means that we can't leverage SaaS. So they might be using a cloud, but they're saying that's still our infrastructure. We're still closed that network down, or they're still on-prem. So they're two big priorities for us this year. And that on-premise experiences is paramount, even to the point that we will be delivering a way that when you run an on-premise, you can still say, wait a second, well I can send outbound alerts to Platform9. So their support team can still be proactively helping me as much as they could, even though I'm running Platform9s control plane. So it's sort of giving that blend of two experiences. They're big, they're big priorities. And the third pillar is all around virtualization. It's saying if you have economic pressures, then I think it's important to look at what you're spending today and realistically say, can that be reduced? And I think hypervisors and virtualization is something that should be looked at, because if you can actually reduce that spend, you can bring in some modernization at the same time. Let's take some of those nos that exist that are two years into their five year hardware life cycle. Let's turn that into a Cloud Native environment, which is enabling your modernization in place. It's giving your engineers and application developers the new toys, the new experiences, and then you can start running some of those virtualized workloads with KubeVirt, there. So you're reducing cost and you're modernizing at the same time with your existing infrastructure. >> You know Chris, the topic of this content series that we're doing with you guys is finding the right path, trusting the right path to Cloud Native. What does that mean? I mean, if you had to kind of summarize that phrase, trusting the right path to Cloud Native, what does that mean? It mean in terms of architecture, is it deployment? Is it operations? What's the underlying main theme of that quote? What's the, what's? How would you talk to a customer and say, what does that mean if someone said, "Hey, what does that right path mean?" >> I think the right path means focusing on what you should be focusing on. I know I've said it a hundred times, but if your entire operations team is trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of Kubernetes and getting three months into a journey and discovering, ah, I need Metrics Server to make something function. I want to use Horizontal Pod Autoscaler or Vertical Pod Autoscaler and I need this other thing, now I need to manage that. That's not the right path. That's literally learning what other people have been learning for the last five, seven years that have been focused on Kubernetes solely. So the why- >> There's been a lot of grind. People have been grinding it out. I mean, that's what you're talking about here. They've been standing up the, when Kubernetes started, it was all the promise. >> Chris: Yep. >> And essentially manually kind of getting in in the weeds and configuring it. Now it's matured up. They want stability. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Not everyone can get down and dirty with Kubernetes. It's not something that people want to generally do unless you're totally into it, right? Like I mean, I mean ops teams, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? It's not like it's heavy lifting. Yeah, it's important. Just got to get it going. >> Yeah, I mean if you're deploying with Platform9, your Ops teams can tinker to their hearts content. We're completely compliant upstream Kubernetes. You can go and change an API server flag, let's go and mess with the scheduler, because we want to. You can still do that, but don't, don't have your team investing in all this time to figure it out. It's been figured out. >> John: Got it. >> Get them focused on enabling velocity for your business. >> So it's not build, but run. >> Chris: Correct? >> Or run Kubernetes, not necessarily figure out how to kind of get it all, consume it out. >> You know we've talked to a lot of customers out there that are saying, "I want to be able to deliver a service to my users." Our response is, "Cool, let us run it. You consume it, therefore deliver it." And we're solving that in one hit versus figuring out how to first run it, then operate it, then turn that into a consumable service. >> So the alternative Platform9 is what? They got to do it themselves or use the Cloud or what's the, what's the alternative for the customer for not using Platform9? Hiring more people to kind of work on it? What's the? >> People, building that kind of PaaS experience? Something that I've been very passionate about for the past year is looking at that world of sort of GitOps and what that means. And if you go out there and you sort of start asking the question what's happening? Just generally with Kubernetes as well and GitOps in that scope, then you'll hear some people saying, well, I'm making it PaaS, because Kubernetes is too complicated for my developers and we need to give them something. There's some great material out there from the likes of Intuit and Adobe where for two big contributors to Argo and the Argo projects, they almost have, well they do have, different experiences. One is saying, we went down the PaaS route and it failed. The other one is saying, well we've built a really stable PaaS and it's working. What are they trying to do? They're trying to deliver an outcome to make it easy to use and consume Kubernetes. So you could go out there and say, hey, I'm going to build a Kubernetes cluster. Sounds like Argo CD is a great way to expose that to my developers so they can use Kubernetes without having to use Kubernetes and start automating things. That is an approach, but you're going to be going completely open source and you're going to have to bring in all the individual components, or you could just lay that, lay it down, and consume it as a service and not have to- >> And mentioned to it. They were the ones who kind of brought that into the open. >> They did. Inuit is the primary contributor to the Argo set of products. >> How has that been received in the market? I mean, they had the event at the Computer History Museum last fall. What's the momentum there? What's the big takeaway from that project? >> Growth. To me, growth. I mean go and track the stars on that one. It's just, it's growth. It's unlocking machine learning. Argo workflows can do more than just make things happen. Argo CD I think the approach they're taking is, hey let's make this simple to use, which I think can be lost. And I think credit where credit's due, they're really pushing to bring in a lot of capabilities to make it easier to work with applications and microservices on Kubernetes. It's not just that, hey, here's a GitOps tool. It can take something from a Git repo and deploy it and maybe prioritize it and help you scale your operations from that perspective. It's taking a step back and saying, well how did we get to production in the first place? And what can be done down there to help as well? I think it's growth expansion of features. They had a huge release just come out in, I think it was 2.6, that brought in things that as a product manager that I don't often look at like really deep technical things and say wow, that's powerful. But they have, they've got some great features in that release that really do solve real problems. >> And as the product, as the product person, who's the target buyer for you? Who's the customer? Who's making that? And you got decision maker, influencer, and recommender. Take us through the customer persona for you guys. >> So that Platform Ops, DevOps space, right, the people that need to be delivering Containers as a service out to their organization. But then it's also important to say, well who else are our primary users? And that's developers, engineers, right? They shouldn't have to say, oh well I have access to a Kubernetes cluster. Do I have to use kubectl or do I need to go find some other tool? No, they can just log to Platform9. It's integrated with your enterprise id. >> They're the end customer at the end of the day, they're the user. >> Yeah, yeah. They can log in. And they can see the clusters you've given them access to as a Platform Ops Administrator. >> So job well done for you guys. And your mind is the developers are moving 'em fast, coding and happy. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> And and from a customer standpoint, you reduce the maintenance cost, because you keep the Ops smoother, so you got efficiency and maintenance costs kind of reduced or is that kind of the benefits? >> Yeah, yep, yeah. And at two o'clock in the morning when things go inevitably wrong, they're not there by themselves, and we're proactively working with them. >> And that's the uptime issue. >> That is the uptime issue. And Cloud doesn't solve that, right? Everyone experienced that Clouds can go down, entire regions can go offline. That's happened to all Cloud providers. And what do you do then? Kubernetes isn't your recovery plan. It's part of it, right, but it's that piece. >> You know Chris, to wrap up this interview, I will say that "theCUBE" is 12 years old now. We've been to OpenStack early days. We had you guys on when we were covering OpenStack and now Cloud has just been booming. You got AI around the corner, AI Ops, now you got all this new data infrastructure, it's just amazing Cloud growth, Cloud Native, Security Native, Cloud Native, Data Native, AI Native. It's going to be all, this is the new app environment, but there's also existing infrastructure. So going back to OpenStack, rolling our own cloud, building your own cloud, building infrastructure cloud, in a cloud way, is what the pioneers have done. I mean this is what we're at. Now we're at this scale next level, abstracted away and make it operational. It seems to be the key focus. We look at CNCF at KubeCon and what they're doing with the cloud SecurityCon, it's all about operations. >> Chris: Yep, right. >> Ops and you know, that's going to sound counterintuitive 'cause it's a developer open source environment, but you're starting to see that Ops focus in a good way. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Infrastructure as code way. >> Chris: Yep. >> What's your reaction to that? How would you summarize where we are in the industry relative to, am I getting, am I getting it right there? Is that the right view? What am I missing? What's the current state of the next level, NextGen infrastructure? >> It's a good question. When I think back to sort of late 2019, I sort of had this aha moment as I saw what really truly is delivering infrastructure as code happening at Platform9. There's an open source project Ironic, which is now also available within Kubernetes that is Metal Kubed that automates Bare Metal as code, which means you can go from an empty server, lay down your operating system, lay down Kubernetes, and you've just done everything delivered to your customer as code with a Cloud Native platform. That to me was sort of the biggest realization that I had as I was moving into this industry was, wait, it's there. This can be done. And the evolution of tooling and operations is getting to the point where that can be achieved and it's focused on by a number of different open source projects. Not just Ironic and and Metal Kubed, but that's a huge win. That is truly getting your infrastructure. >> John: That's an inflection point, really. >> Yeah. >> If you think about it, 'cause that's one of the problems. We had with the Bare Metal piece was the automation and also making it Cloud Ops, cloud operations. >> Right, yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think Ironic did really well was saying let's just treat that piece of Bare Metal like a Cloud VM or an instance. If you got a problem with it, just give the person using it or whatever's using it, a new one and reimage it. Just tell it to reimage itself and it'll just (snaps fingers) go. You can do self-service with it. In Platform9, if you log in to our SaaS Ironic, you can go and say, I want that physical server to myself, because I've got a giant workload, or let's turn it into a Kubernetes cluster. That whole thing is automated. To me that's infrastructure as code. I think one of the other important things that's happening at the same time is we're seeing GitOps, we're seeing things like Terraform. I think it's important for organizations to look at what they have and ask, am I using tools that are fit for tomorrow or am I using tools that are yesterday's tools to solve tomorrow's problems? And when especially it comes to modernizing infrastructure as code, I think that's a big piece to look at. >> Do you see Terraform as old or new? >> I see Terraform as old. It's a fantastic tool, capable of many great things and it can work with basically every single provider out there on the planet. It is able to do things. Is it best fit to run in a GitOps methodology? I don't think it is quite at that point. In fact, if you went and looked at Flux, Flux has ways that make Terraform GitOps compliant, which is absolutely fantastic. It's using two tools, the best of breeds, which is solving that tomorrow problem with tomorrow solutions. >> Is the new solutions old versus new. I like this old way, new way. I mean, Terraform is not that old and it's been around for about eight years or so, whatever. But HashiCorp is doing a great job with that. I mean, so okay with Terraform, what's the new address? Is it more complex environments? Because Terraform made sense when you had basic DevOps, but now it sounds like there's a whole another level of complexity. >> I got to say. >> New tools. >> That kind of amalgamation of that application into infrastructure. Now my app team is paying way more attention to that manifest file, which is what GitOps is trying to solve. Let's templatize things. Let's version control our manifest, be it helm, customize, or just a straight up Kubernetes manifest file, plain and boring. Let's get that version controlled. Let's make sure that we know what is there, why it was changed. Let's get some auditability and things like that. And then let's get that deployment all automated. So that's predicated on the cluster existing. Well why can't we do the same thing with the cluster, the inception problem. So even if you're in public cloud, the question is like, well what's calling that API to call that thing to happen? Where is that file living? How well can I manage that in a large team? Oh my God, something just changed. Who changed it? Where is that file? And I think that's one of big, the big pieces to be sold. >> Yeah, and you talk about Edge too and on-premises. I think one of the things I'm observing and certainly when DevOps was rocking and rolling and infrastructures code was like the real push, it was pretty much the public cloud, right? >> Chris: Yep. >> And you did Cloud Native and you had stuff on-premises. Yeah you did some lifting and shifting in the cloud, but the cool stuff was going in the public cloud and you ran DevOps. Okay, now you got on-premise cloud operation and Edge. Is that the new DevOps? I mean 'cause what you're kind of getting at with old new, old new Terraform example is an interesting point, because you're pointing out potentially that that was good DevOps back in the day or it still is. >> Chris: It is, I was going to say. >> But depending on how you define what DevOps is. So if you say, I got the new DevOps with public on-premise and Edge, that's just not all public cloud, that's essentially distributed Cloud Native. >> Correct. Is that the new DevOps in your mind or is that? How would you, or is that oversimplifying it? >> Or is that that term where everyone's saying Platform Ops, right? Has it shifted? >> Well you bring up a good point about Terraform. I mean Terraform is well proven. People love it. It's got great use cases and now there seems to be new things happening. We call things like super cloud emerging, which is multicloud and abstraction layers. So you're starting to see stuff being abstracted away for the benefits of moving to the next level, so teams don't get stuck doing the same old thing. They can move on. Like what you guys are doing with Platform9 is providing a service so that teams don't have to do it. >> Correct, yeah. >> That makes a lot of sense, So you just, now it's running and then they move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, right. >> So what is that next thing? >> I think Edge is a big part of that next thing. The propensity for someone to put up with a delay, I think it's gone. For some reason, we've all become fairly short-tempered, Short fused. You know, I click the button, it should happen now, type people. And for better or worse, hopefully it gets better and we all become a bit more patient. But how do I get more effective and efficient at delivering that to that really demanding- >> I think you bring up a great point. I mean, it's not just people are getting short-tempered. I think it's more of applications are being deployed faster, security is more exposed if they don't see things quicker. You got data now infrastructure scaling up massively. So, there's a double-edged swords to scale. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maintenance, downtime, uptime, security. So yeah, I think there's a tension around, and one hand enthusiasm around pushing a lot of code and new apps. But is the confidence truly there? It's interesting one little, (snaps finger) supply chain software, look at Container Security for instance. >> Yeah, yeah. It's big. I mean it was codified. >> Do you agree that people, that's kind of an issue right now. >> Yeah, and it was, I mean even the supply chain has been codified by the US federal government saying there's things we need to improve. We don't want to see software being a point of vulnerability, and software includes that whole process of getting it to a running point. >> It's funny you mentioned remote and one of the thing things that you're passionate about, certainly Edge has to be remote. You don't want to roll a truck or labor at the Edge. But I was doing a conversation with, at Rebars last year about space. It's hard to do brake fix on space. It's hard to do a, to roll a someone to configure satellite, right? Right? >> Chris: Yeah. >> So Kubernetes is in space. We're seeing a lot of Cloud Native stuff in apps, in space, so just an example. This highlights the fact that it's got to be automated. Is there a machine learning AI angle with all this ChatGPT talk going on? You see all the AI going the next level. Some pretty cool stuff and it's only, I know it's the beginning, but I've heard people using some of the new machine learning, large language models, large foundational models in areas I've never heard of. Machine learning and data centers, machine learning and configuration management, a lot of different ways. How do you see as the product person, you incorporating the AI piece into the products for Platform9? >> I think that's a lot about looking at the telemetry and the information that we get back and to use one of those like old idle terms, that continuous improvement loop to feed it back in. And I think that's really where machine learning to start with comes into effect. As we run across all these customers, our system that helps at two o'clock in the morning has that telemetry, it's got that data. We can see what's changing and what's happening. So it's writing the right algorithms, creating the right machine learning to- >> So training will work for you guys. You have enough data and the telemetry to do get that training data. >> Yeah, obviously there's a lot of investment required to get there, but that is something that ultimately that could be achieved with what we see in operating people's environments. >> Great. Chris, great to have you here in the studio. Going wide ranging conversation on Kubernetes and Platform9. I guess my final question would be how do you look at the next five years out there? Because you got to run the product management, you got to have that 20 mile steer, you got to look at the customers, you got to look at what's going on in the engineering and you got to kind of have that arc. This is the right path kind of view. What's the five year arc look like for you guys? How do you see this playing out? 'Cause KubeCon is coming up and we're you seeing Kubernetes kind of break away with security? They had, they didn't call it KubeCon Security, they call it CloudNativeSecurityCon, they just had in Seattle inaugural events seemed to go well. So security is kind of breaking out and you got Kubernetes. It's getting bigger. Certainly not going away, but what's your five year arc of of how Platform9 and Kubernetes and Ops evolve? >> It's to stay on that theme, it's focusing on what is most important to our users and getting them to a point where they can just consume it, so they're not having to operate it. So it's finding those big items and bringing that into our platform. It's something that's consumable, that's just taken care of, that's tested with each release. So it's simplifying operations more and more. We've always said freedom in cloud computing. Well we started on, we started on OpenStack and made that simple. Stable, easy, you just have it, it works. We're doing that with Kubernetes. We're expanding out that user, right, we're saying bring your developers in, they can download their Kube conflict. They can see those Containers that are running there. They can access the events, the log files. They can log in and build a VM using KubeVirt. They're self servicing. So it's alleviating pressures off of the Ops team, removing the help desk systems that people still seem to rely on. So it's like what comes into that field that is the next biggest issue? Is it things like CI/CD? Is it simplifying GitOps? Is it bringing in security capabilities to talk to that? Or is that a piece that is a best of breed? Is there a reason that it's been spun out to its own conference? Is this something that deserves a focus that should be a specialized capability instead of tooling and vendors that we work with, that we partner with, that could be brought in as a service. I think it's looking at those trends and making sure that what we bring in has the biggest impact to our users. >> That's awesome. Thanks for coming in. I'll give you the last word. Put a plug in for Platform9 for the people who are watching. What should they know about Platform9 that they might not know about it or what should? When should they call you guys and when should they engage? Take a take a minute to give the plug. >> The plug. I think it's, if your operations team is focused on building Kubernetes, stop. That shouldn't be the cloud. That shouldn't be in the Edge, that shouldn't be at the data center. They should be consuming it. If your engineering teams are all trying different ways and doing different things to use and consume Cloud Native services and Kubernetes, they shouldn't be. You want consistency. That's how you get economies of scale. Provide them with a simple platform that's integrated with all of your enterprise identity where they can just start consuming instead of having to solve these problems themselves. It's those, it's those two personas, right? Where the problems manifest. What are my operations teams doing, and are they delivering to my company or are they building infrastructure again? And are my engineers sprinting or crawling? 'Cause if they're not sprinting, you should be asked the question, do I have the right Cloud Native tooling in my environment and how can I get them back? >> I think it's developer productivity, uptime, security are the tell signs. You get that done. That's the goal of what you guys are doing, your mission. >> Chris: Yep. >> Great to have you on, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Chris: Thanks very much. 0 Okay, this is "theCUBE" here, finding the right path to Cloud Native. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat synth intro music) >> Hey everyone and welcome to Detroit, Michigan. theCUBE is live at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, North America 2022. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. John, this event, the keynote that we got out of a little while ago was, standing room only. The Solutions hall is packed. There's so much buzz. The community is continuing to mature. They're continuing to contribute. One of the big topics is Cloud Native at Scale. >> Yeah, I mean, this is a revolution happening. The developers are coming on board. They will be running companies. Developers, structurally, will be transforming companies with just, they got to get powered somewhere. And, I think, the Cloud Native at Scale speaks to getting everything under the covers, scaling up to support developers. In this next segment, we have two Kube alumnis. We're going to talk about Cloud Native at Scale. Some of the things that need to be there in a unified architecture, should be great. >> All right, it's going to be fantastic. Let's go under the covers here, as John mentioned, two alumni with us, Madhura Maskasky joins us, co-founder of Platform9. Sirish Raghuram, also co-founder of Platform9 joins us. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to have you guys here at KubeCon on the floor in Detroit. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Excited to be here >> So, talk to us. You guys have some news, Madhura, give us the sneak peak. What's going on? >> Definitely, we are very excited. So, we have John, not too long ago we spoke about our very new open source project called Arlon. And, we were talking about the launch of Arlon in terms of its first release and etcetera. And, just fresh hot of the press, we, Platform9 had its 5.6 release which is its most recent release of our product. And there's a number of key interesting announcements that we'd like to share as part of that. I think, the prominent one is, Platform9 added support for EKS Kubernetes cluster management. And, so, this is part of our vision of being able to add value, no matter where you run your Kubernetes clusters, because, Kubernetes or cluster management, is increasingly becoming commodity. And, so, I think the companies that succeed are going to add value on top, and are going to add value in a way that helps end users, developers, DevOps solve problems that they encounter as they start running these environments, with a lot of scale and a lot of diversity. So, towards that, key features in the 5.6 six release. First, is the very first package release of the product online, which is the open source project that we've kicked off to do cluster and application, entire cluster management at scale. And, then there's few other very interesting capabilities coming out of that. >> I want to just highlight something and then get your thoughts on this next, this release 5.6. First of all, 5.6, it's been around for a while, five reps, but, now, more than ever, you mentioned the application in Ops. You're seeing WebAssembly trends, you're seeing developers getting more and more advanced capability. It's going to accelerate their ability to write code and compose applications. So, you're seeing a application tsunami coming. So, the pressure is okay, they're going to need infrastructure to run all that stuff. And, so, you're seeing more clusters being spun up, more intelligence trying to automate. So you got the automation, so you got the dynamic, the power dynamic of developers and then under the covers. What does 5.6 do to push the mission forward for developers? How would you guys summarize that for people watching? what's in it for them right now? >> So it's, I think going back to what you just said, right, the breadth of applications that people are developing on top of something like Kubernetes and Cloud Native, is always growing. So, it's not just a number of clusters, but also the fact that different applications and different development groups need these clusters to be composed differently. So, a certain version of the application may require some set of build components, add-ons, and operators, and extensions. Whereas, a different application may require something entirely different. And, now, you take this in an enterprise context, right. Like, we had a major media company that worked with us. They have more than 10,000 pods being used by thousands of developers. And, you now think about the breadth of applications, the hundreds of different applications being built. how do you consistently build, and compose, and manage, a large number of communities clusters with a a large variety of extensions that these companies are trying to manage? That's really what I think 5.6 is bringing to the table. >> Scott Johnston just was on here early as the CEO of Docker. He said there's more applications being pushed now than in the history of application development combined. There's more and more apps coming, more and more pressure on the system. >> And, that's where, if you go, there's this famous landscape chart of the CNCF ecosystem technologies. And, the problem that people here have is, how do they put it all together? How do they make sense of it? And, what 5.6 and Arlon and what Platform9 is doing is, it's helping you declaratively capture blueprints of these clusters, using templates, and be able to manage a small number of blueprints that helps you make order out of the chaos of these hundreds of different projects, that are all very interesting and powerful. >> So Project Arlon really helping developers produce the configuration and the deployment complexities of Kubernetes at scale. >> That's exactly right. >> Talk about the, the impact on the business side. Ease of use, what's the benefits for 5.6? What's does it turn into for a benefit standpoint? >> Yeah, I think the biggest benefit, right, is being able to do Cloud Native at Scale faster, and while still keeping a very lean Ops team that is able to spend, let's say 70 plus percent of their time, caring for your actual business bread and butter applications, and not for the infrastructure that serves it, right. If you take the analogy of a restaurant, you don't want to spend 70% of your time in building the appliances or setting up your stoves etcetera. You want to spend 90 plus percent of your time cooking your own meal, because, that is your core key ingredient. But, what happens today in most enterprises is, because, of the level of automation, the level of hands-on available tooling, being there or not being there, majority of the ops time, I would say 50, 70% plus, gets spent in making that kitchen set up and ready, right. And, that is exactly what we are looking to solve, online. >> What would a customer look like, or prospect environment look like that would be really ready for platform9? What, is it more apps being pushed, big push on application development, or is it the toil of like really inefficient infrastructure, or gaps in skills of people? What does an environment look like? So, someone needs to look at their environment and say, okay, maybe I should call platform9. What's it look like? >> So, we generally see customers fall into two ends of the barbell, I would say. One, is the advanced communities users that are running, I would say, typically, 30 or more clusters already. These are the people that already know containers. They know, they've container wise... >> Savvy teams. >> They're savvy teams, a lot of them are out here. And for them, the problem is, how do I manage the complexity at scale? Because, now, the problem is how do I scale us? So, that's one end of the barbell. The other end of the barbell, is, how do we help make Kubernetes accessible to companies that, as what I would call the mainstream enterprise. We're in Detroit in Motown, right, And, we're outside of the echo chamber of the Silicon Valley. Here's the biggest truth, right. For all the progress that we made as a community, less than 20% of applications in the enterprise today are running on Kubernetes. So, what does it take? I would say it's probably less than 10%, okay. And, what does it take, to grow that in order of magnitude? That's the other kind of customer that we really serve, is, because, we have technologies like Kube Word, which helps them take their existing applications and start adopting Kubernetes as a directional roadmap, but, while using the existing applications that they have, without refactoring it. So, I would say those are the two ends of the barbell. The early adopters that are looking for an easier way to adopt Kubernetes as an architectural pattern. And, the advanced savvy users, for whom the problem is, how do they operationally solve the complexity of managing at scale. >> And, what is your differentiation message to both of those different user groups, as you talked about in terms of the number of users of Kubernetes so far? The community groundswell is tremendous, but, there's a lot of opportunity there. You talked about some of the barriers. What's your differentiation? What do you come in saying, this is why Platform9 is the right one for you, in the both of these groups. >> And it's actually a very simple message. We are the simplest and easiest way for a new user that is adopting Kubernetes as an architectural pattern, to get started with existing applications that they have, on the infrastructure that they have. Number one. And, for the savvy teams, our technology helps you operate with greater scale, with constrained operations teams. Especially, with the economy being the way it is, people are not going to get a lot more budget to go hire a lot more people, right. So, that all of them are being asked to do more with less. And, our team, our technology, and our teams, help you do more with less. >> I was talking with Phil Estes last night from AWS. He's here, he is one of their engineer open source advocates. He's always on the ground pumping up AWS. They've had great success, Amazon Web Services, with their EKS. A lot of people adopting clusters on the cloud and on-premises. But Amazon's doing well. You guys have, I think, a relationship with AWS. What's that, If I'm an Amazon customer, how do I get involved with Platform9? What's the hook? Where's the value? What's the product look like? >> Yeah, so, and it kind of goes back towards the point we spoke about, which is, Kubernetes is going to increasingly get commoditized. So, customers are going to find the right home whether it's hyperscalers, EKS, AKS, GKE, or their own infrastructure, to run Kubernetes. And, so, where we want to be at, is, with a project like Arlon, Sirish spoke about the barbell strategy, on one end there is these advanced Kubernetes users, majority of them are running Kubernetes on AKS, right? Because, that was the easiest platform that they found to get started with. So, now, they have a challenge of running these 50 to 100 clusters across various regions of Amazon, across their DevTest, their staging, their production. And, that results in a level of chaos that these DevOps or platform... >> So you come in and solve that. >> That is where we come in and we solve that. And it, you know, Amazon or EKS, doesn't give you tooling to solve that, right. It makes it very easy for you to create those number of clusters. >> Well, even in one hyperscale, let's say AWS, you got regions and locations... >> Exactly >> ...that's kind of a super cloud problem, we're seeing, opportunity problem, and opportunity is that, on Amazon, availability zones is one thing, but, now, also, you got regions. >> That is absolutely right. You're on point John. And the way we solve it, is by using infrastructure as a code, by using GitOps principles, right? Where you define it once, you define it in a yaml file, you define exactly how for your DevTest environment you want your entire infrastructure to look like, including EKS. And then you stamp it out. >> So let me, here's an analogy, I'll throw out this. You guys are like, someone learns how to drive a car, Kubernetes clusters, that's got a couple clusters. Then once they know how to drive a car, you give 'em the sports car. You allow them to stay on Amazon and all of a sudden go completely distributed, Edge, Global. >> I would say that a lot of people that we meet, we feel like they're figuring out how to build a car with the kit tools that they have. And we give them a car that's ready to go and doesn't require them to be trying to... ... they can focus on driving the car, rather than trying to build the car. >> You don't want people to stop, once they get the progressions, they hit that level up on Kubernetes, you guys give them the ability to go much bigger and stronger. >> That's right. >> To accelerate that applications. >> Building a car gets old for people at a certain point in time, and they really want to focus on is driving it and enjoying it. >> And we got four right behind us, so, we'll get them involved. So that's... >> But, you're not reinventing the wheel. >> We're not at all, because, what we are building is two very, very differentiated solutions, right. One, is, we're the simplest and easiest way to build and run Cloud Native private clouds. And, this is where the operational complexity of trying to do it yourself. You really have to be a car builder, to be able to do this with our Platform9. This is what we do uniquely that nobody else does well. And, the other end is, we help you operate at scale, in the hyperscalers, right. Those are the two problems that I feel, whether you're on-prem, or in the cloud, these are the two problems people face. How do you run a private cloud more easily, more efficiently? And, how do you govern at scale, especially in the public clouds? >> I want to get to two more points before we run out of time. Arlon and Argo CD as a service. We previously mentioned up coming into KubeCon, but, here, you guys couldn't be more relevant, 'cause Intuit was on stage on the keynote, getting an award for their work. You know, Argo, it comes from Intuit. That ArgoCon was in Mountain View. You guys were involved in that. You guys were at the center of all this super cloud action, if you will, or open source. How does Arlon fit into the Argo extension? What is Argo CD as a service? Who's going to take that one? I want to get that out there, because, Arlon has been talked about a lot. What's the update? >> I can talk about it. So, one of the things that Arlon uses behind the scenes, is it uses Argo CD, open source Argo CD as a service, as its key component to do the continuous deployment portion of its entire, the infrastructure management story, right. So, we have been very strongly partnering with Argo CD. We, really know and respect the Intuit team a lot. We, as part of this effort, in 5.6 release, we've also put out Argo CD as a service, in its GA version, right. Because, the power of running Arlon along with Argo CD as a service, in our mind, is enabling you to run on one end, your infrastructure as a scale, through GitOps, and infrastructure as a code practices. And on the other end, your entire application fleet, at scale, right. And, just marrying the two, really gives you the ability to perform that automation that we spoke about. >> But, and avoid the problem of sprawl when you have distributed teams, you have now things being bolted on, more apps coming out. So, this is really solves that problem, mainly. >> That is exactly right. And if you think of it, the way those problems are solved today, is, kind of in disconnected fashion, which is on one end you have your CI/CD tools, like Argo CD is an excellent one. There's some other choices, which are managed by a separate team to automate your application delivery. But, that team, is disconnected from the team that does the infrastructure management. And the infrastructure management is typically done through a bunch of Terraform scripts, or a bunch of ad hoc homegrown scripts, which are very difficult to manage. >> So, Arlon changes sure, as they change the complexity and also the sprawl. But, that's also how companies can die. They're growing fast, they're adding more capability. That's what trouble starts, right? >> I think in two ways, right. Like one is, as Madhura said, I think one of the common long-standing problems we've had, is, how do infrastructure and application teams communicate and work together, right. And, you've seen Argo's really get adopted by the application teams, but, it's now something that we are making accessible for the infrastructure teams to also bring the best practices of how application teams are managing applications. You can now use that to manage infrastructure, right. And, what that's going to do is, help you ultimately reduce waste, reduce inefficiency, and improve the developer experience. Because, that's what it's all about, ultimately. >> And, I know that you just released 5.6 today, congratulations on that. Any customer feedback yet? Any, any customers that you've been able to talk to, or have early access? >> Yeah, one of our large customers is a large SaaS retail company that is B2C SaaS. And, their feedback has been that this, basically, helps them bring exactly what I said in terms of bring some of the best practices that they wanted to adopt in the application space, down to the infrastructure management teams, right. And, we are also hearing a lot of customers, that I would say, large scale public cloud users, saying, they're really struggling with the complexity of how to tame the complexity of navigating that landscape and making it consumable for organizations that have thousands of developers or more. And that's been the feedback, is that this is the first open source standard mechanism that allows them to kind of reuse something, as opposed to everybody feels like they've had to build ad hoc solutions to solve this problem so far. >> Having a unified infrastructure is great. My final question, for me, before I end up, for Lisa to ask her last question is, if you had to explain Platform9, why you're relevant and cool today, what would you say? >> If I take that? I would say that the reason why Platform9, the reason why we exist, is, putting together a cloud, a hybrid cloud strategy for an enterprise today, historically, has required a lot of DIY, a lot of building your own car. Before you can drive a car, or you can enjoy the car, you really learn to build and operate the car. And that's great for maybe a 100 tech companies of the world, but, for the next 10,000 or 50,000 enterprises, they want to be able to consume a car. And that's why Platform9 exists, is, we are the only company that makes this delightfully simple and easy for companies that have a hybrid cloud strategy. >> Why you cool and relevant? How would you say it? >> Yeah, I think as Kubernetes becomes mainstream, as containers have become mainstream, I think automation at scale with ease, is going to be the key. And that's exactly what we help solve. Automation at scale and with ease. >> With ease and that differentiation. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. Last question, I guess, Madhura, for you, is, where can Devs go to learn more about 5.6 and get their hands on it? >> Absolutely. Go to platform9.com. There is info about 5.6 release, there's a press release, there's a link to it right on the website. And, if they want to learn about Arlon, it's an open source GitHub project. Go to GitHub and find out more about it. >> Excellent guys, thanks again for sharing what you're doing to really deliver Cloud Native at Scale in a differentiated way that adds ostensible value to your customers. John, and I, appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thanks so much >> Our pleasure. For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from Detroit, Michigan at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2022. Stick around, John and I will be back with our next guest. Just a minute. (light synth outro music)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE Live in Detroit, Michigan. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22. John, this is day two of our coverage wall-to-wall three days of coverage on theCUBE. We've been talking a lot about the developer and how the world is starting to really revolve around developer and DevOps portfolios. >> Yes, developers, startups, big companies, all transforming. This next segment, we want to hear from how Dell Technologies cloud natives, big time strategy there and looking forward to it. It's good. It's going to be a great segment. >> Yes, please welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE. Brad Maltz is here, Senior Director of DevOps Portfolio and DevRel for Dell Technologies. Good to see you. >> Thank you guys for having me. >> So, Dell at KubeCon, what's going on? >> Yeah, that's literally the most common question I'm getting. So for us, it's a lot about our customer base is making that transformation into a DevOps world. And they have a ton of Dell and they're like, Hey, from a Dell perspective, how do you help us make that transformation into a DevOps operating model? So we're here to explain that. We're here to talk about infrastructure as code, our container Kubernetes story, our multi-cloud story. We're talking about all of it. >> Tell us about those stories and what the value is in it for companies to work with Dell as they transition. >> So when we look at it from a DevOps perspective for us, it's all about the culture, the operating model shift they're trying to make. And what that means to them is they have to figure out how do they automate all of the stacks they have to deal with. Whether it's going to be server, storage, data protection, network, and all the way up through the hypervisor and Kubernetes. That means they need to work with an ecosystem of tools. Things like Ansible, things like Terraform, all that stuff. Our job is to make our portfolio more consumable in the infrastructure as code space. That's one part of the discussion. The second part of the conversation is Kubernetes won. Kubernetes won the abstraction in this multi-cloud world and we as Dell are helping our customers consume Kubernetes. Whether it's by bringing solutions and more appliance oriented mentality to the market or whether it's actually enabling them with our container storage modules and CSI drivers. >> So it as supercloud as we call or multi-cloud as some people call it, you're starting to see the abstraction for interoperability, but essentially just distributed hybrid cloud. Edge as you guys have a big presence. So Dell's supplying not just the data center anymore. Cloud models are moving to hybrid on-premises, edge is growing. We saw some great use cases where military applications are using Kubernetes and all kinds of new things. So this real examples happening right now. This is going to impact Dell's customers and Dell as a supplier of compute and servers. And the gear that runs everything. Like at a telco, you can have a data center at an edge spot, like a box could be a data center. >> Telco is a great example cause we created the business, the Telco business unit. And in the Telco business unit, our goal was, hey, telco is a little different than enterprise edge. Enterprise edge, retail, manufacturing, healthcare. They have certain needs. Telco, much smaller group of customers that have a much different set of needs. And that's very similar is how do we scale at the edge? How do we control things programmatically? How do we do it in a secure way? And how do we do it so that our people internally don't have to deal with the underpinnings of all that infrastructure. Just make it easier for them. That's our goal through the edge discussions, through telco and all that. >> Yeah. We've been doing a big thing on why hardware matters. Hardware's back. We look at all the hyperscalers, the big competition is faster, faster, faster chips, faster the physics. This is part of the supply chain both hardware and software. Okay. So developers want more power. At the end of the day, this community here wants invisible infrastructure and they want it fast. >> Brad: Yes, that's exactly right. >> There's a lot under the hub. It's still servers. >> You still got firmware, you still got bio, you still got to management operating system, You still got to patch things, kernels, security issues, all of that from a server perspective. We haven't even talked about storage or networking or any of the other stuff. So there's a ton of buttons and dials under the covers. >> And that's totally going to be awesome. And the question comes in, okay, now take me to the cloud native because automation, infrastructures code, these are now the hotspots. Software supply chain, not hardware, software supply chain. So these are all things that are going to be intersecting. What's your view? >> In the multi-cloud view of the world, what we really have are our customers are saying, okay, we started on one cloud, Amazon or Azure or Google. And they're like, you know what? We had to go to a second cloud for whatever reason, many reasons. Now we have to manage two clouds. And by the way, we never got fully off-prem. So now we have all of our on-premises stuff plus multiple clouds. How do we deal with the complexity there? And the complexity there is everything from data problems of data mobility, data protection, replication, all that stuff. How do we deal with the actual application life cycle management across that? And that's where a lot of the tooling we're discussing comes in. That's where Kubernetes comes in and they want to do it in an agnostic way. 'Cause if they can't begin to transition to do it in a standardized layer, then the end of the day they're still going to be managing three totally different environments with three separate engineering teams. >> So is your target audience primarily existing Dell customers, legacy customers, or is it really wide open? >> It's actually been opening up. So we have kind of, the way I view it is we have three different segments that we're going to be going after. We have what I would say is the top 10% of the industry that's really able to skill up into this DevOps world very quickly. They're going to go after the GitOps, they're going to go after all those things. That's a combination of existing customers, but also the really, really large customers that can build their own clouds on-premises. We then have the other end of the spectrum. People that aren't making the shift. People that are like, you know what this DevOps transformation it's not going to help us there, but we still need server and storage and whatnot. And then I like to call it the squishy middle. 60, 70% of the market that's like, we can't scale up in time, we can't hire the people, they're not available 'cause that 10% just got them all, but we still have the same problems. And how do we operate in a world where we have that multi-cloud type of a problem, but we can't find the people. Now you got to figure out more of the no-code, low-code packaged solutions, packaged automation coming from companies like Dell and others. >> So there's customers that are either at the beginning of their journey are not convinced yet. What are some of the barriers that they're seeing that Dell can help them overcome? >> Number one thing, education. >> Lisa: Really? >> We're hearing that consistently here at KubeCon and just customer meetings all over the place. There is a segment of the industry that they're empowered to move into a DevOps model. They don't have the ability or resources. They're not able to say, I've been doing this forever in this way in storage. How do I do that in another thing? And they're scared. They want somebody to come in and kind of handhold them a little bit, but somebody they trust. Somebody they've been working with for a very long time. That's Dell's role. Hands-on labs, training materials, how-to videos, but do it in the comfortable way that they feel like, okay we got this. >> And the success with the customers has been that well-documented. The success with the company, again, continues to survive and thrive in all conditions. So Michael Dell knows what he's doing. Love following his strategy. Michael, if you're watching, I know he watches theCUBE video, congratulations. But now the hard question for Dell is this, the applications used to run on PCs, now they're running PCs under the covers and servers. The application space here at this community is enabled by Kubernetes, is creating a new application runtime like environment. I like, compared to the old app server days when things were like just application specific, development got easier. We're in that renaissance now where the app runtime is being enabled by Kubernetes. You guys been there, done that in the old school, now the new school. What's your view on this Kubernetes? What's Dell's view on? >> Yeah, so back to Kubernetes won in my head. It's just flat out won and part of the reason, and it beat out a lot of things. You remember Cloud Foundry, which there's still a thing, but Cloud Foundry went a little too far up into the application stack and constrained the application developers a bit too much. Kubernetes success is two things. It's because they're not constraining the developer, but they're also figuring out how to enable that IT operations mindset. And they become that happy medium that's out there. So now all of a sudden, application modernization conversations and cloud-native app development, there is a standard package. There's standard load balancing and security paradigm, standard registration mechanisms, all built into the Kubernetes layer, by the way, enabled by an ecosystem. And because they're actually going through that, what's happening now is we can finally move forward. We can take that next step and we can build around that ecosystem of Kubernetes. >> That is thematically something that we've been hearing, John, for the last day and a half is the maturation of Kubernetes People, what's next? We are ready for the next step. Talk about Dell as an enabler of that. >> Yeah, so a funny, another part of that paradigm is Kubernetes does not equal virtualization. And this is a hard one in this industry right now. A lot of people say, well, yeah, we did the VMware pivot and then the KVM and everything else and they're like, this is just another one of those pivots. I'm like, no it's not. Virtualization was the pivot of physical hardware became virtual hardware, but you still thought of it in CPU memory disc and you managed it in the same way. Kubernetes, it's a such a different way of thinking about operationalization and all that abstraction that what we're realizing is people need to take baby steps into Kubernetes right now. The maturity of it is great because there is an ecosystem around it, but the majority of the industry isn't even aware of the basics of Kubernetes right now. So our job, we look at it as the education part, but also can we deliver the solutions together with the OpenShift's of the world and the Tanzu's of the world and the Rancher's of the world. Can we deliver more of that full stack experience going into the next few years? That's where we believe we can help accelerate them. Education and that delivery mechanism. >> And the community support is going to be there too. You got to have the. >> 100%. >> The community, not just education, which you guys done before, but doing it with open source vibe. >> That's where DevRel comes in. So the DevRel half of my world now is all about Dell in the community. And to be part of community isn't just to say, Hey, I'm going to go sponsor something. That's not community to me. >> It doesn't hurt. >> It doesn't hurt, but we're going to do that. We're definitely going to help with that. What our notion is you got to participate, you got to contribute, you got to be there, you got to be part of the community. That's part of my developer relations team is to become part of it. >> You got to be part of it and belong. Belonging is earning. >> Brad: Yes. >> And that's the key. And the other thing we were talking about standards and Dell has won a lot of business 'cause the PC and the servers all had standards, standard components. Standards now in the community are being driven by developer consensus. >> Brad: Yes. >> So that is an interesting new paradigm. So if you make cloud native work where all the hardware and software that's powering the builders is invisible. The developers will tell you what they want. >> 100%. >> And that's why your Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry example is so on point. It's a little bit nuanced, but what happened there is, let's explain Kubernetes was loosely de facto enabling. They didn't try to take too much territory. They didn't over push. >> Brad: Exactly. >> They were very flexible, lightweight at first, but it was enabling. >> It was organic. >> And we called it on theCUBE, I'm not going to lie, we called that early on. So props to us. >> Brad: Good job. >> Pat on the back. >> Lisa: Pat your own back. >> We get it right a lot. But now there's impact though. But the Dell I think speaks to the theme here, which just we talked is that you got startups here. We had from Envoy, we saw the donator there. He started his own company. You got Dell, which has large enterprises running massive workloads with a lot of legacy and modernization. So you got a combination of both coming together. This is going to be a collision of innovation. >> Oh I look, that's exactly right. Part of what I've been getting is not just the end users, the infrastructure developers, and whatnot around here. Startups look, come to Dell, and they're like, why are you here? Like we build this and we don't talk to you. And we're like, why not? If we come to market and start delivering more of those Kubernetes oriented solutions and the Kubernetes stack experience, that's where you guys should be working with us. You're part of the ecosystem. >> Well, your job is to say to them, look it when you want to write your software for the edge and we have market share of the most hardware at the edge, 'cause we perform better on the edge. No one wants to write software on the slower platform. >> No. >> Name me one I want to write software that's just, this is something, but people don't understand that's why you're here. >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> The game is about performance. >> Brad: Yeah. >> Cloud can do it, you can do it with a machine. So it depends where in the distributed computing chain you're at. >> You bring up one topic that actually isn't a core discussion topic around DevOps, but I am seeing more HPC and a AI/ML conversations popping up in this DevOps cloud native space. 'Cause even the market of HPC, which is a very traditional market, commodity server driven in the past, they're starting to say, how do I take advantage of Kubernetes and all of the benefits that we've been talking about. >> What are some of the things that you've heard like in your sense is the key theme or the talk track of Kubernetes, its evolution? What's on the developer's minds the last day and a half at this conference? >> Oh, okay. That's a hard question, but a good one. So the way I look at it is probably it's the robustness of the features within Kubernetes, not the native features, but even partner included features. They just want to be able to handle security in a much more, I hate to say zero trust, but secure cloud native way. There's tools in the Kubernetes ecosystem that are so integrated into Kubernetes. They don't have to think sometimes as much about how do they do it themselves. They can go find through open source or off-the-shelf startup and say, I need that and I can spin it up in about five minutes and now I'm doing that without having to spend weeks or months and having to build that. And that's security is one example. You can go through the networking discussion, you can go through so many different areas. The fact is because of community and the ecosystem, that is the winning formula for Kubernetes to enable the development. That's all I'm hearing here is they're like, give me more, give me more startups, give me more of these technologies. >> And ease of use has been a big topic here. We've been talking before we came on camera about VMware has done great since it used the virtual machine example versus Kubernetes. That is millions of developers and operators on VMware. They have about 200,000 plus just in VMUG alone. So they are going to transform their careers. They're looking for a home. They're looking for a community for the next 10 years. I mean, VMware will still be around with Broadcom, but I'm speculating that it will be much more in maintenance mode. But to get someone's career in fourth gear, fifth gear, you got to go and get that next skill set, and that's the question. Where do all these operators, IT operators go to become enterprise operators? >> Brad: That's exactly right. >> That is a big topic. What's your reaction? >> Sp I'm actually a living proof of that. I grew up in the VMware ecosystem. And for me making that pivot, it took me many years. One of the ways I did that was I actually have run in Dell, our advanced development pivotal Dojos, if you remember Pivotal. >> Yes. >> And doing the Pair Programming in Agile. It took me that mental shift to say, okay, we were doing it that way and now there's a new way to do it through code with developers and using all the new buzzwords. And that pivot is different for somebody that's just starting now, and they don't have access to a Dojo that they can go handle like a whole bunch of pair programmers. How do they make that pivot? That's 100% what we have to do. >> Okay, so my question is this, this is a hard question for you, maybe you can answer or not or maybe you can. What's different now than the attempt in the past from Dell EMC to do work or align with the developers? I think, was it five, six years ago, it was an effort. Was it timing? What's different now from then? >> So that attempt was awesome. That team was great. I was very close to that team and that was from the EMC side originally is where they have built that out. And the notion of that was that we just have to go start contributing knowledge and technology into the community and start really taking the brand and trying to expand the brand to be relevant in that community. Nothing wrong. That was actually an amazing way they did it. I think through the merger there was definitely a little bit of, okay, well, maybe this isn't one of our top priorities right now and that's probably what happened through the actual merger. >> John: It's a little bit distraction. >> It was distraction. >> Timings wasn't as good now. >> You try merging a 67 billion merger. I mean it's just really hard to do. What happened here is I think we finally got past a lot of that with the merger and now we're in steady stage/growth mode, which is a notion that now we can go and do this again in the new world, taking our lessons learned from what we did before, and try to actually go and update that in these new power apps. >> And you could point to some specific timing issues. Like at that time this community wasn't as advanced along. Kubernetes wasn't as clear. Visibility to that value proposition. Although a lot of people were speculating what happened that way. >> Exactly. >> But now with multi-cloud, I think developers starting to see the reality that it ain't going to be one cloud. >> Well, multi-cloud is not one cloud, so 100%. >> Well, I mean there's multi-cloud today, but it's really not multi-cloud by the way it could be. The people have multiple clouds. I think that gives developers comfort that existing enterprise players. Remember Microsoft wasn't really in the cloud game six, seven years ago. Look where they are now. Significant progress, nipping at the heels of AWS. So all the enterprise players are back at the table. >> Brad: Yeah, definitely. We're here. >> And that's timing issue. >> We're here. >> Talk about, you're here, you are helping customers get to the basics of Kubernetes. You talked a lot about the importance of the education. >> Brad: Yes. >> That screams to me that Dell can be a facilitator of cultural change within organizations, whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer or whatnot. Another thing that I'm curious about, what you guys are doing, how you've evolved, Dell is a massive partner ecosystem. How is the partner ecosystem involved in helping customers build their DevOps portfolios and really start embracing, understanding, and learning about Kubernetes? >> So that's an ever changing world right now. And that's part of why we're here at KubeCon is to help expand that. We have a very, very strong partner community. Not even just channel, but like technology partner community. And our goal is to understand with our DevOps portfolio what needs to be the next step of that partner community. Do we have to go partner up with like the, I'll use examples, the Solo.io. Do we have to partner up with all the mesh companies, the HashiCorp, which we are, We have to understand where the layers that make sense and where don't. There are some that don't make sense because they're so often to an app developer land or they're so far above even Kubernetes sometimes that maybe they don't make sense in our partner community. >> How influential are, I know we got to go soon, but how influential are your customers in helping to make some of those decisions? It's all about the customer at the end of the day. >> They're the only one that's deciding for us. They have to come to us. We have to see the need. We have to understand the discussions through our sales mechanisms, our other mechanisms. We're using that data every single day, every hour to make those decisions. >> Awesome. Brad, it's been great to have you. Sorry we took more of your time than we planned, but it was so interesting. >> No, this is awesome. >> Dell at KubeCon, you've done a great job of explaining why that absolutely resonates, the relevance, and why customers should be looking at Dell as their partner for this. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. >> Thank you guys. >> All right. For John Furrier and our guest, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon '22 from Detroit, Michigan. Stick around, our next guest will be here in just a minute. (gentle music)

>> (bright music) >> Narrator: The Cube, presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon, year of 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Now what we're opening. Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon Cloudnativecon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillin, who is the senior editor for architecture at Silicon angle, Paul. >> Keith you've been asking me questions all these last two days. Let me ask you one. You're a traveling man. You go to a lot of conferences. What's different about this one. >> You know what, we're just talking about that pre-conference, open source conferences are usually pretty intimate. This is big. 7,500 people talking about complex topics, all in one big area. And then it's, I got to say it's overwhelming. It's way more. It's not focused on a single company's product or messaging. It is about a whole ecosystem, very different show. >> And certainly some of the best t-shirts I've ever seen. And our first guest, Jim has one of the better ones. >> I mean a bit cockroach come on, right. >> Jim Walker, principal product evangelist at CockroachDB and Christian Huning, tech director of cloud technologies at Finleap Connect, a financial services company that's based out of Germany, now offering services in four countries now. >> Basically all over Europe. >> Okay. >> But we are in three countries with offices. >> So you're CockroachDB customer and I got to ask the obvious question. Databases are hard and started the company in 2015 CockroachDB, been a customer since 2019, I understand. Why take the risk on a four year old database. I mean that just sounds like a world of risk and trouble. >> So it was in 2018 when we joined the company back then and we did this cloud native transformation, that was our task basically. We had very limited amount of time and we were faced with a legacy infrastructure and we needed something that would run in a cloud native way and just blend in with everything else we had. And the idea was to go all in with Kubernetes. Though early days, a lot of things were alpha beta, and we were running on mySQL back then. >> Yeah. >> On a VM, kind of small setup. And then we were looking for something that we could just deploy in Kubernetes, alongside with everything else. And we had to stack and we had to duplicate it many times. So also to maintain that we wanted to do it all the same like with GitOps and everything and Cockroach delivered that proposition. So that was why we evaluate the risk of relatively early adopting that solution with the proposition of having something that's truly cloud native and really blends in with everything else we do in the same way was something we considered, and then we jumped the leap of faith and >> The fin leap of faith >> The fin leap of faith. Exactly. And we were not dissatisfied. >> So talk to me a little bit about the challenges because when we think of MySQL, MySQL scales to amazing sizes, it is the de facto database for many cloud based architectures. What problems were you running into with MySQL? >> We were running into the problem that we essentially, as a finTech company, we are regulated and we have companies, customers that really value running things like on-prem, private cloud, on-prem is a bit of a bad word, maybe. So it's private cloud, hybrid cloud, private cloud in our own data centers in Frankfurt. And we needed to run it in there. So we wanted to somehow manage that and with, so all of the managed solution were off the table, so we couldn't use them. So we needed something that ran in Kubernetes because we only wanted to maintain Kubernetes. We're a small team, didn't want to use also like full blown VM solution, of sorts. So that was that. And the other thing was, we needed something that was HA distributable somehow. So we also looked into other solutions back at the time, like Vitis, which is also prominent for having a MySQL compliant interface and great solution. We also got into work, but we figured, this is from the scale, and from the sheer amount of maintenance it would need, we couldn't deliver that, we were too small for that. So that's where then Cockroach just fitted in nicely by being able to distribute BHA, be resilient against failure, but also be able to scale out because we had this problem with a single MySQL deployment to not really, as it grew, as the data amounts grew, we had trouble to operatively keep that under control. >> So Jim, every time someone comes to me and says, I have a new database, I think we don't need it, yet another database. >> Right. >> What problem, or how does CockroachDB go about solving the types of problems that Christian had? >> Yeah. I mean, Christian laid out why it exists. I mean, look guys, building a database isn't easy. If it was easy, we'd have a database for every application, but you know, Michael Stonebraker, kind of godfather of all database says it himself, it takes seven, eight years for a database to fully gestate to be something that's like enterprise ready and kind of, be relied upon. We've been billing for about seven, eight years. I mean, I'm thankful for people like Christian to join us early on to help us kind of like troubleshoot and go through some things. We're building a database, it's not easy. You're right. But building a distributor system is also not easy. And so for us, if you look at what's going on in just infrastructure in general, what's happening in Kubernetes, like this whole space is Kubernetes. It's all about automation. How do I automate scale? How do I automate resilience out of the entire equation of what we're actually doing? I don't want to have to think about active passive systems. I don't want to think about sharding a database. Sure you can scale MySQL. You know, how many people it takes to run three or four shards of MySQL database. That's not automation. And I tell you what, this world right now with the advances in data how hard it is to find people who actually understand infrastructure to hire them. This is why this automation is happening, because our systems are more complex. So we started from the very beginning to be something that was very different. This is a cloud native database. This is built with the same exact principles that are in Kubernetes. In fact, like Kubernetes it's kind of a spawn of borg, the back end of Google. We are inspired by Spanner. I mean, this started by three engineers that worked at Google, are frustrated, they didn't have the tools, they had at Google. So they built something that was, outside of Google. And how do we give that kind of Google like infrastructure for everybody. And that's, the advent of Cockroach and kind of why we're doing, what we're doing. >> As your database has matured, you're now beginning a transition or you're in a transition to a serverless version. How are you doing that without disrupting the experience for existing customers? And why go serverless at all? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, serverless was, it was kind of a an R&D project for us. And when we first started on a path, because I think you know, ultimately what we would love to do for the database is let's not even think about database, Keith. Like, I don't want to think about the database. What we're building too is, we want a SQL API in the cloud. That's it. I don't want to think about scale. I don't want to think about upgrades. I literally like. that stuff should just go away. That's what we need, right. As developers, I don't want to think about isolation levels or like, you know, give me DML and I want to be able to communicate. And for us the realization of that vision is like, if we're going to put a database on the planet for everybody to actually use it, we have to be really, really efficient. And serverless, which I believe really should be infrastructure less because I don't think we should be thinking of just about service. We got to think about, how do I take the context of regions out of this thing? How do I take the context of cloud providers out of what we're talking about? Let's just not think about that. Let's just code against something. Serverless was the answer. Now we've been building for about a year and a half. We launched a serverless version of Cockroach last October and we did it so that everybody in the public could have a free version of a database. And that's what serverless allows us to do. It's all consumption based up to certain limits and then you pay. But I think ultimately, and we spoke a little bit about this at the very beginning. I think as ISVs, people who are building software today the serverless vision gets really interesting because I think what's on the mind of the CTO is, how do I drive down my cost to the cloud provider? And if we can basically, drive down costs through either making things multi-tenant and super efficient, and then optimizing how much compute we use, spinning things down to zero and back up and auto scaling these sort of things in our software. We can start to make changes in the way that people are thinking about spend with the cloud provider. And ultimately we did that, so we could do things for free. >> So, Jim, I think I disagree Christian, I'm sorry, Jim. I think I disagree with you just a little bit. Christian, I think the biggest challenge facing CTOs are people. >> True. >> Getting the people to worry about cost and spend and implementation. So as you hear the concepts of CoachDB moving to a serverless model, and you're a large customer how does that make you think or react to your people side of your resources? >> Well, I can say that from the people side of resources luckily Cockroach is our least problem. So it just kind of, we always said, it's an operator stream because that was the part that just worked for us, so. >> And it's worked as you have scaled it? without you having ... >> Yeah. I mean, we use it in a bit of a, we do not really scale out like the Cockroach, like really large. It's like, more that we use it with the enterprise features of encryption in the stack and our customers then demand. If they do so, we have the Zas offering and we also do like dedicated stacks. So by having a fully cloud native solution on top of Kubernetes, as the foundational layer we can just use that and stamp it out and deploy it. >> How does that translate into services you can provide your customers? Are there services you can provide customers that you couldn't have, if you were running, say, MySQL? >> No, what we do is, we run this, so the SAS offering runs in our hybrid private cloud. And the other thing that we offer is that we run the entire stack at a cloud provider of their choosing. So if they are an AWS, they give us an AWS account, we put it in there. Theoretically, we could then also talk about using the serverless variant, if they like so, but it's not strictly required for us. >> So Christian, talk to me about that provisioning process because if I had a MySQL deployment before I can imagine how putting that into a cloud native type of repeatable CICD pipeline or Ansible script that could be difficult. Talk to me about that. How CockroachDB enables you to create new onboarding experiences for your customers? >> So what we do is, we use helm charts all over the place as probably everybody else. And then each application team has their parts of services, they've packaged them to helm charts, they've wrapped us in a super chart that gets wrapped into the super, super chart for the entire stack. And then at the right place, somewhere in between Cockroach is added, where it's a dependency. And as they just offer a helm chart that's as easy as it gets. And then what the teams do is they have an inner job, that once you deploy all that, it would spin up. And as soon as Cockroach is ready it's just the same reconcile loop as everything. It will then provision users, set up database schema, do all that. And initialize, initial data sets that might be required for a new setup. So with that setup, we can spin up a new cluster and then deploy that stack chart in there. And it takes some time. And then it's done. >> So talk to me about life cycle management. Because when I have one database, I have one schema. When I have a lot of databases I have a lot of different schemas. How do you keep your stack consistent across customers? >> That is basically part of the same story. We have get offs all over the place. So we have this repository, we see the super helm chart versions and we maintain like minus three versions and ensure that we update the customers and keep them up to date. It's part of the contract sometimes, down to the schedule of the customer at times. And Cockroach nicely supports also, these updates with these migrations in the background, the schema migrations in the background. So we use in our case, in that integration SQL alchemy, which is also nicely supported. So there was also part of the story from MySQL to Postgres, was supported by the ORM, these kind of things. So the skill approach together with the ease of helm charts and the background migrations of the schema is a very seamless upgrade operations. Before that we had to have downtime. >> That's right, you could have online schema changes. Upgrading the database uses the same concept of rolling upgrades that you have in Kubernetes. It's just cloud native. It just fits that same context, I think. >> Christian: It became a no-brainer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jim, you mentioned the idea of a SQL API in the cloud, that's really interesting. Why does such a thing not exist? >> Because it's really difficult to build. You know, SQL API, what does that mean? Like, okay. What I'm going to, where does that endpoint live? Is there one in California one on the east coast, one in Europe, one in Asia? Okay. And I'm asking that endpoint for data. Where does that data live? Can you control where data lives on the planet? Because ultimately what we're fighting in software today in a lot of these situations is the speed of light. And so how do you intelligently place data on this planet? So that, you know, when you're asking for data, when you're maybe home, it's a different latency than when you're here in Valencia. Does that data follow and move you? These are really, really difficult problems to solve. And I think that we're at that layer of, we're at this moment in time in software engineering, we're solving some really interesting, interesting things cause we are budding against this speed of light problem. And ultimately that's one of the biggest challenges. But underneath, it has to have all this automation like the ease at which we can scale this database like the always on resilient, the way that we can upgrade the entire thing with just rolling upgrades. The cloud native concepts is really what's enabling us to do things at global scale it's automation. >> Let's alk about that speed of light in global scale. There's no better conference for speed of light, for scale, than Kubecon. Any predictions coming out of the show? >> It's less a prediction for me and more of an observation, you guys. Like look at two years ago, when we were here in Barcelona at QCon EU, it was a lot of hype. It's a lot of hype, a lot of people walking around, curious, fascinated, this is reality. The conversations that I'm having with people today, there's a reality. There's people really doing, they're becoming cloud native. And to me, I think what we're going to see over the next two to three years is people start to adopt this kind of distributed mindset. And it permeates not just within infrastructure but it goes up into the stack. We'll start to see much more developers using, Go and these kind of the threaded languages, because I think that distributed mindset, if it starts at the chip all the way to the fingertip of the person clicking and you're distributed everywhere in between. It is extremely powerful. And I think that's what Finleap, I mean, that's exactly what the team is doing. And I think there's a lot of value and a lot of power in that. >> Jim, Christian, thank you so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your story. You know what we're past the hype cycle of Kubernetes, I agree. I was a nonbeliever in Kubernetes two, three years ago. It was mostly hype. We're looking at customers from Microsoft, Finleap and competitors doing amazing things with this platform and cloud native in general. Stay tuned for more coverage of Kubecon from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillin and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. This is season two of the ongoing series. We're covering exciting start startups in the AWS ecosystem to talk about open source community stuff. I'm your host, Dave Nicholson. And I'm delighted today to have two guests from Weaveworks. Steve George, COO of Weaveworks, and Steve Waterworth, technical marketing engineer from Weaveworks. Welcome, gentlemen, how are you? >> Very well, thanks. >> Very well, thanks very much. >> So, Steve G., what's the relationship with AWS? This is the AWS Startup Showcase. How do Weaveworks and AWS interact? >> Yeah sure. So, AWS is a investor in Weaveworks. And we, actually, collaborate really closely around EKS and some specific EKS tooling. So, in the early days of Kubernetes when AWS was working on EKS, the Elastic Kubernetes Service, we started working on the command line interface for EKS itself. And due to that partnership, we've been working closely with the EKS team for a long period of time, helping them to build the CLI and make sure that users in the community find EKS really easy to use. And so that brought us together with the AWS team, working on GitOps and thinking about how to deploy applications and clusters using this GitOps approach. And we've built that into the EKS CLI, which is an open source tool, is a project on GitHub. So, everybody can get involved with that, use it, contribute to it. We love hearing user feedback about how to help teams take advantage of the elastic nature of Kubernetes as simply and easily as possible. >> Well, it's great to have you. Before we get into the specifics around what Weaveworks is doing in this area that we're about to discuss, let's talk about this concept of GitOps. Some of us may have gotten too deep into a Netflix series, and we didn't realize that we've moved on from the world of DevOps or DevSecOps and the like. Explain where GitOps fits into this evolution. >> Yeah, sure. So, really GitOps is an instantiation, a version of DevOps. And it fits within the idea that, particularly in the Kubernetes world, we have a model in Kubernetes, which tells us exactly what we want to deploy. And so what we're talking about is using Git as a way of recording what we want to be in the runtime environment, and then telling Kubernetes from the configuration that is stored in Git exactly what we want to deploy. So, in a sense, it's very much aligned with DevOps, because we know we want to bring teams together, help them to deploy their applications, their clusters, their environments. And really with GitOps, we have a specific set of tools that we can use. And obviously what's nice about Git is it's a very developer tool, or lots and lots of developers use it, the vast majority. And so what we're trying to do is bring those operational processes into the way that developers work. So, really bringing DevOps to that generation through that specific tooling. >> So Steve G., let's continue down this thread a little bit. Why is it necessary then this sort of added wrinkle? If right now in my organization we have developers, who consider themselves to be DevOps folks, and we give them Amazon gift cards each month. And we say, "Hey, it's a world of serverless, "no code, low code lights out data centers. "Go out and deploy your code. "Everything should be fine." What's the problem with that model, and how does GitOps come in and address that? >> Right. I think there's a couple of things. So, for individual developers, one of the big challenges is that, when you watch development teams, like deploying applications and running them, you watch them switching between all those different tabs, and services, and systems that they're using. So, GitOps has a real advantage to developers, because they're already sat in Git, they're already using their familiar tooling. And so by bringing operations within that developer tooling, you're giving them that familiarity. So, it's one advantage for developers. And then for operations staff, one of the things that it does is it centralizes where all of this configuration is kept. And then you can use things like templating and some other things that we're going to be talking about today to make sure that you automate and go quickly, but you also do that in a way which is reliable, and secure, and stable. So, it's really helping to bring that run fast, but don't break things kind of ethos to how we can deploy and run applications in the cloud. >> So, Steve W., let's start talking about where Weaveworks comes into the picture, and what's your perspective. >> So, yeah, Weaveworks has an engine, a set of software, that enables this to happen. So, think of it as a constant reconciliation engine. So, you've got your declared state, your desired state is declared in Git. So, this is where all your YAML for all your Kubernetes hangs out. And then you have an agent that's running inside Kubernetes, that's the Weaveworks GitOps agent. And it's constantly comparing the desired state in Git with the actual state, which is what's running in Kubernetes. So, then as a developer, you want to make a change, or an operator, you want to make a change. You push a change into Git. The reconciliation loop runs and says, "All right, what we've got in Git does not match "what we've got in Kubernetes. "Therefore, I will create story resource, whatever." But it also works the other way. So, if someone does directly access Kubernetes and make a change, then the next time that reconciliation loop runs, it's automatically reverted back to that single source of truth in Git. So, your Kubernetes cluster, you don't get any configuration drift. It's always configured as you desire it to be configured. And as Steve George has already said, from a developer or engineer point of view, it's easy to use. They're just using Git just as they always have done and continue to do. There's nothing new to learn. No change to working practices. I just push code into Git, magic happens. >> So, Steve W., little deeper dive on that. When we hear Ops, a lot of us start thinking about, specifically in terms of infrastructure, and especially since infrastructure when deployed and left out there, even though it's really idle, you're paying for it. So, anytime there's an Ops component to the discussion, cost and resource management come into play. You mentioned this idea of not letting things drift from a template. What are those templates based on? Are they based on... Is this primarily an infrastructure discussion, or are we talking about the code itself that is outside of the infrastructure discussion? >> It's predominantly around the infrastructure. So, what you're managing in Git, as far as Kubernetes is concerned, is always deployment files, and services, and horizontal pod autoscalers, all those Kubernetes entities. Typically, the source code for your application, be it in Java, Node.js, whatever it is you happen to be writing it in, that's, typically, in a separate repository. You, typically, don't combine the two. So, you've got one set of repository, basically, for building your containers, and your CLI will run off that, and ultimately push a container into a registry somewhere. Then you have a separate repo, which is your config. repo, which declares what version of the containers you're going to run, how many you're going to run, how the services are bound to those containers, et cetera. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Steve G., talk to us about this concept of trusted application delivery with GitOps, and frankly, it's what led to the sort of prior question. When you think about trusted application delivery, where is that intertwinement between what we think of as the application code versus the code that is creating the infrastructure? So, what is trusted application delivery? >> Sure, so, with GitOps, we have the ability to deploy the infrastructure components. And then we also define what the application containers are, that would go to be deployed into that environment. And so, this is a really interesting question, because some teams will associate all of the services that an application needs within an application team. And sometimes teams will deploy sort of horizontal infrastructure, which then all application teams services take advantage of. Either way, you can define that within your configuration, within your GitOps configuration. Now, when you start deploying speed, particularly when you have multiple different teams doing these sorts of deployments, one of the questions that starts to come up will be from the security team, or someone who's thinking about, well, what happens if we make a deployment, which is accidentally incorrect, or if there is a security issue in one of those dependencies, and we need to get a new version deployed as quickly as possible? And so, in the GitOps pipeline, one of the things that we can do is to put in various checkpoints to check that the policy is being followed correctly. So, are we deploying the right number of applications, the right configuration of an application? Does that application follow certain standards that the enterprise has set down? And that's what we talk about when we talk about trusted policy and trusted delivery. Because really what we're thinking about here is enabling the development teams to go as quickly as possible with their new deployments, but protecting them with automated guard rails. So, making sure that they can go fast, but they are not going to do anything which destroys the reliability of the application platform. >> Yeah, you've mentioned reliability and kind of alluded to scalability in the application environment. What about looking at this from the security perspective? There've been some recently, pretty well publicized breaches. Not a lot of senior executives in enterprises understand that a very high percentage of code that their businesses are running on is coming out of the open source community, where developers and maintainers are, to a certain degree, what they would consider to be volunteers. That can be a scary thing. So, talk about why an enterprise struggles today with security, policy, and governance. And I toss this out to Steve W. Or Steve George. Answer appropriately. >> I'll try that in a high level, and Steve W. can give more of the technical detail. I mean, I'll say that when I talk to enterprise customers, there's two areas of concern. One area of concern is that, we're in an environment with DevOps where we started this conversation of trying to help teams to go as quickly as possible. But there's many instances where teams accidentally do things, but, nonetheless, that is a security issue. They deploy something manually into an environment, they forget about it, and that's something which is wrong. So, helping with this kind of policy as code pipeline, ensuring that everything goes through a set of standards could really help teams. And that's why we call it developer guard rails, because this is about helping the development team by providing automation around the outside, that helps them to go faster and relieves them from that mental concern of have they made any mistakes or errors. So, that's one form. And then the other form is the form, where you are going, David, which is really around security dependencies within software, a whole supply chain of concern. And what we can do there, by, again, having a set of standard scanners and policy checking, which ensures that everything is checked before it goes into the environment. That really helps to make sure that there are no security issues in the runtime deployment. Steve W., anything that I missed there? >> Yeah, well, I'll just say, I'll just go a little deeper on the technology bit. So, essentially, we have a library of policies, which get you started. Of course, you can modify those policies, write your own. The library is there just to get you going. So, as a change is made, typically, via, say, a GitHub action, the policy engine then kicks in and checks all those deployment files, all those YAML for Kubernetes, and looks for things that then are outside of policy. And if that's the case, then the action will fail, and that'll show up on the pull request. So, things like, are your containers coming from trusted sources? You're not just pulling in some random container from a public registry. You're actually using a trusted registry. Things like, are containers running as route, or are they running in privileged mode, which, again, it could be a security? But it's not just about security, it can also be about coding standards. Are the containers correctly annotated? Is the deployment correctly annotated? Does it have the annotation fields that we require for our coding standards? And it can also be about reliability. Does the deployment script have the health checks defined? Does it have a suitable replica account? So, a rolling update. We'll actually do a rolling update. You can't do a rolling update with only one replica. So, you can have all these sorts of checks and guards in there. And then finally, there's an admission controller that runs inside Kubernetes. So, if someone does try and squeeze through, and do something a little naughty, and go directly to the cluster, it's not going to happen, 'cause that admission controller is going to say, "Hey, no, that's a policy violation. "I'm not letting that in." So, it really just stops. It stops developers making mistakes. I know, I know, I've done development, and I've deployed things into Kubernetes, and haven't got the conflict quite right, and then it falls flat on its face. And you're sitting there scratching your head. And with the policy checks, then that wouldn't happen. 'Cause you would try and put something in that has a slightly iffy configuration, and it would spit it straight back out at you. >> So, obviously you have some sort of policy engine that you're you're relying on. But what is the user experience like? I mean, is this a screen that is reminiscent of the matrix with non-readable characters streaming down that only another machine can understand? What does this look like to the operator? >> Yeah, sure, so, we have a console, a web console, where developers and operators can use a set of predefined policies. And so that's the starting point. And we have a set of recommendations there and policies that you can just attach to your deployments. So, set of recommendations about different AWS resources, deployment types, EKS deployment types, different sets of standards that your enterprise might be following along with. So, that's one way of doing it. And then you can take those policies and start customizing them to your needs. And by using GitOps, what we're aiming for here is to bring both the application configuration, the environment configuration. We talked about this earlier, all of this being within Git. We're adding these policies within Git as well. So, for advanced users, they'll have everything that they need together in a single unit of change, your application, your definitions of how you want to run this application service, and the policies that you want it to follow, all together in Git. And then when there is some sort of policy violation on the other end of the pipeline, people can see where this policy is being violated, how it was violated. And then for a set of those, we try and automate by showing a pull request for the user about how they can fix this policy violation. So, try and make it as simple as possible. Because in many of these sorts of violations, if you're a busy developer, there'll be minor configuration details going against the configuration, and you just want to fix those really quickly. >> So Steve W., is that what the Mega Leaks policy engine is? >> Yes, that's the Mega Leaks policy engine. So, yes, it's a SaaS-based service that holds the actual policy engine and your library of policies. So, when your GitHub action runs, it goes and essentially makes a call across with the configuration and does the check and spits out any violation errors, if there are any. >> So, folks in this community really like to try things before they deploy them. Is there an opportunity for people to get a demo of this, get their hands on it? what's the best way to do that? >> The best way to do it is have a play with it. As an engineer, I just love getting my hands dirty with these sorts of things. So, yeah, you can go to the Mega Leaks website and get a 30-day free trial. You can spin yourself up a little, test cluster, and have a play. >> So, what's coming next? We had DevOps, and then DevSecOps, and now GitOps. What's next? Are we going to go back to all infrastructure on premises all the time, back to waterfall? Back to waterfall, "Hot Tub Time Machine?" What's the prediction? >> Well, I think the thing that you set out right at the start, actually, is the prediction. The difference between infrastructure and applications is steadily going away, as we try and be more dynamic in the way that we deploy. And for us with GitOps, I think we're... When we talk about operations, there's a lots of depth to what we mean about operations. So, I think there's lots of areas to explore how to bring operations into developer tooling with GitOps. So, that's, I think, certainly where Weaveworks will be focusing. >> Well, as an old infrastructure guy myself, I see this as vindication. Because infrastructure still matters, kids. And we need sophisticated ways to make sure that the proper infrastructure is applied. People are shocked to learn that even serverless application environments involve servers. So, I tell my 14-year-old son this regularly, he doesn't believe it, but it is what it is. Steve W., any final thoughts on this whole move towards GitOps and, specifically, the Weaveworks secret sauce and superpower. >> Yeah. It's all about (indistinct)... It's all about going as quickly as possible, but without tripping up. Being able to run fast, but without tripping over your shoe laces, which you forgot to tie up. And that's what the automation brings. It allows you to go quickly, does lots of things for you, and yeah, we try and stop you shooting yourself in the foot as you're going. >> Well, it's been fantastic talking to both of you today. For the audience's sake, I'm in California, and we have a gentleman in France, and a gentlemen in the UK. It's just the wonders of modern technology never cease. Thanks, again, Steve Waterworth, Steve George from Weaveworks. Thanks for coming on theCUBE for the AWS Startup Showcase. And to the rest of us, keep it right here for more action on theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to the CUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase around open cloud innovations. It's the season two episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem and talking about open source and innovation. I'm John Furrier, your host. Today, we're joined by two great guests. Dan Garfield, chief open source officer and co-founder of Codefresh IO, and Raziel Tabib, CEO and co-founder. Two co-founders in the middle of all the innovation. Gentlemen thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So you guys have a great platform and as cloud native goes mainstream in the enterprise and for developers, the big topic is unification, end-to-end, horizontally scalable, leveraging data. All these things around agile that I call agile cloud next level. This is kind of what we're seeing. The CNCF is growing. You've seen KubeCon every year is more about these kinds of things. Words like orchestration, Kubernetes, container, security. All of those complexities are now at the center of making things easier for developers. This is a key value proposition and you guys at Codefresh are offering really the first enterprise delivery solution powered by Argo, which is an open source project. Again, open source driving really big changes. So let's get into it. And first of all, congratulations, and thanks for working on this project. What's so special about- >> Thank you for that. >> Argo the project, and why have you guys decided to build a platform on it, and where is this coming together? Take us through why this is so important. >> I think Argo has been a very fast growing open source project for multiple reasons. A, it has been built for the new way of building and deploying an application. It's cloud native. You mentioned Kubernetes becoming kind of the de facto way of running application. It's the de facto way to run automation and pipeline. But also Argo has been built from the ground up to the latest practices of how we deploy software. We deploy software now differently. We deploy it using a GitOps practice. We're deploying it using canary blue-green progressive deployment. And Argo has been built around these practices, around these technologies, and has been very much widely adopted by the community. In the past, the KubeCon you've mentioned, Argo was all over the place. And we were very glad to be working with the community to talk about what the next steps with Argo. >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I would like to just follow up on that because you see this being talked about. It always comes up, where is open source really outside of a pure contributors matter? And when you have corporations contributing, you seeing this has been the trend. You saw it with Lyft, with Envoy, companies doing more and more open source. This is part of a big collaboration. And again, this comes back down to this whole why it's relevant and why it's so special with Argo. Continue to talk about relationship because it's not just you guys, it's now community. >> Yeah, I can speak to that. The Argo project is something that we maintain in partnership with several other companies and really our relationship with it is that this is something that we're actively contributing to. This is something that we're helping build the roadmap on and planning the events around and all those kinds of things. And we're doing that because we really believe in this technology and we've built our platform on it. So when you deploy Codefresh, you're deploying technology that's built directly on Argo and is designed specifically to solve that problem that you spoke to at the top of the hour. We all want to deliver software faster. We all want to have fewer regressions. We want to have fewer breaking changes. We want software to be super reliable. We want to be comfortable with what we're doing. That's really why we picked Argo because that technology that we have it is to Raziel's point delivered in this new way. It's delivered using GitOps. And that's a whole revolution and change in the way that people build and deploy software. And bringing cohesion into that experience is so critical to building the confidence that lets you actually deploy often and frequently and more. >> Dan, if you don't mind just expanding on that one point about the problem you solve, because to me, this has been kind of that evolution. It's almost like, yeah, there's been problems, plural, and opportunities that you saw with those in growing markets like this with DevOps and DevSecOps and now cloud native. What is the catalyst behind all of this? What was the epiphany behind it? How did it get so much momentum? What was it really doing under the covers? >> Well, it's a very simple and easy to use set of tools. And that's one of the big things is that if you look at the ideas of GitOps and there's actually a foundation around this that were part of called open GitOps to GitOps working group under the CNCF. And those principles of, I want to, yes, do my software defined as code. I want to do my infrastructure defined as code and I need something monitoring by production run times and making sure that the declared desired state is always matching the actual state. Those principles have actually been around for a number of years. And with Kubernetes, we really unlocked an API that allowed us to start doing GitOps and this is why we bring in Argo and you see the rise of Argo CD and other workflows and what we've been doing is really because that technology has been unlocked now. So the ability to define how your software is supposed to run and now your entire software delivery stack should run, all defined and then monitored and then kept in check using the GitOps operator. That critical unlock is what's really driving the massive adoption. And like Raziel said, Argo is the fastest growing and most popular open source project for delivering software. And it's not even close. >> Yeah, this is really great point. And I want to get into that 'cause I want to know why, what you guys do on your platform versus the open source and get that relationship settled? Before we get there, though, I want to get your reaction to some of the commentary in the industry 'cause GitOps trend has been exploding into new directions. I mean, it used to be a term about 10 years ago called big data. And at the beginning where data was all big data. Now it was DevOps revolution around data as well. But now you're hearing people talk about big code. Like, I mean, the code bases are becoming so huge. So as a developer, you're leveraging large open source code. This idea of the software delivery with existing code and new code just adds to more code. There's more code being developed every day. >> There is more code delivered every day. And I think that organization realize today, almost in every industry that they have to pace up how fast and how frequent they update their software delivery. We're living in a world in which every aspect of our life has been disrupted by software and organization realize that they have to keep up and figure out how to deploy software more frequent and more lively. And I think, you mentioned that really Kubernetes, the cloud native became the de facto way of running application. I think most of organization has made that decision to move into cloud native. The second question is after, is okay, now we have all applications running, how fast and how more frequent we can deploy applications to the cloud native? And that's the stage in which we're super excited about Argo and our up platform because that's basically streamline the building application for these cloud native, deploying applications for the cloud native, and so on. >> Yeah, and I think that highlights the business value. You getting a lot of the conversations with businesses that say they want the modern application on the cloud scale. And at the end of the day, it comes down to speed and security. So how fast can I get the app out? How well does it work? Does it run performance? And does it have security? And I don't want a slow. >> Exactly. Exactly. It kind of oversimplifies it, but that's kind of the net net. So when you look at Argo open source, what's that's done and kind of where you guys are taking it. Can you talk about the differences between your enterprise version and the open source version and the interplay there, the relationship, the business model health customers can play on both sides or understand the difference? >> Sure. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead, Raziel. Okay, so I think Argo, as you mentioned, is probably the most advanced technology today to both run pipelines. They're like events to trigger pipelines and Argo work for the one that pipelines, the Argo CD for GitOps and Rollout, for Canary blue-green strategies. And the adoption is really exploding. Just as an Advocate that we had in December, we have worked with the community and organized ArgoCon events in which we had initially kind of thought about 500 attendees. And so we have more than 4,000 registrants and majority of them are coming from enterprise. Now as we have talked to the community during this conference and figure out, okay, so what are the things that you're still missing? And that will help you take the benefit that you get from Argo to the next level. The few things that came up. One is Argo is a great technology. However, Argo now is fragmented into four projects. There is an advance. There is workflow. There is Argo CD. And there is Argo Rollout. And there is a need to bring them all together into a solid platform, solid one run time that can be easily installed, monitor all of these in a single UI, in a single control plane. That's one aspect. The second is the scalability. Really being able to manage it centrally across multiple clusters, not in one cluster. And what we bring in with the new one, we're so excited about this platform, is we're bringing that big. The first to get all of these four projects in one runtime, and one control plane, but also allow the community to run it across multiple cluster from one place getting into the solution, not just as a technology. >> If I may add to that, the value of bringing these projects together, it provides so many insights. So when you're trying to figure out, there's some breaking change that has been made, but you don't necessarily know where it is because you have a lot of microservices that are out there. You have a lot of teams working on it. By bringing all of these things together, we're able to look at all of the commits, all of the deployments, all of the Jira issues. All of these components combined together, so you really get a single view where you can see everything that's going on. And this is another element where when you're trying to deploy software at scale, you're trying to deliver it faster. People are getting a little bit overwhelmed because there are so many updates and so many different services and so many teams working that they're starting to miss that visibility. So this is what we want to bring into the ecosystem is we really want them that visibility to be super clear. And by bringing all of the Argo components, the Argo tools together, we're able to do that in a single dashboard. >> Yeah, so if I get this right, let me just double click on that because it sounds like, yeah, Argo's great. It's been organically growing, a lot of different components to it, but when you start getting into pushing code in an organization, you have, I call the old-school version control kind of vibe going on where it's like you don't know what's out there and how that affects the system as it's a distributed system, which cloud is. There are consequences when stuff breaks. So we all know that. Is that kind of where you guys are getting at? The challenge is actually the opportunity at the same time where it's all goodness, but then when you start looking at scale and the system impact, is that kind of where the open source and you guys pick up, is that right? >> This is one aspect. I think the second one is that again, when you look at each individual component of Argo, each provide a lot of value by itself. But when you sum it, the value of the sum is greater than the value of the individual. So when you're taking, really the events and workflow, Argo CD and Argo Rollout, and you bring them all together into single runtime. The value of its time is really automation all the way from code to cloud. It's not breaking into, there is like an automation for CI, there's an automation for CD, there's information for progressive delivery. It's actually automated all the way from the Git commit through the GitOps through the deployment strategy, and so on. And being able to monitor it and scale it in the enterprise scale. So, of course, it's helping enterprise and make Argo to some level more crucial for enterprise, if I may say, but second is really bringing all of these components together and get the outcome be greater than the individual parts. >> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, make it make a commercial grade, if you will, for enterprise who wants to have support and consistency and whatnot. What other problems are you solving? Dan, can you chime in on the whole, how you guys resolve some of these challenges for the enterprise? Because, again, some stability is key as well, but also the business benefit has got to be there for the development teams. >> Yeah. So there's several. One aspect is that the way that most people operate today is they essentially do a bunch of commands and engage with systems. And then hopefully at the end, they write those things to Git. And this is a little bit backwards if you think about it because there's a situation where you can end up with things in production that were never checked in, or maybe somebody is operating and they're making a change. If we look at most of the downtime that's occurred over the last two years, it's because people have flubbed a key when they were typing in a command or something like that. The way that this system works is that we provide an interface, both the CLI and the GUI, where those operations interactions actually end with a Git commit. So rather than doing an operation and then hopefully committing to Git, most of the operations are actually done first in Git, or if there is something that can't be done first in Git, it's maybe bootstrapped and then committed to Git as part of a single command. So this means you have end-to-end traceability. It also means your auditability is way better. And then the second, the other component that we're adding is that security and scale layer. So we are securing these things, we're building in single sign-on, and all those robust security things you would expect to have across all these instances. So many organizations, when they're building their software delivery tools, they have to deploy instances in many locations. And so this is how you end up with companies that have 5,000 instances that are all out of date and insecure. Well with Codefresh, if you need to deploy a component onto this end cluster or something like that, you may have thousands of them. All of those are monitored and taken care of in a centralized way, so I can do all of my updates at once. I can make sure they're all up to date. I'm not running with a bunch of known CVEs or something like that and it's clear. The components are also designed in an architectural way. So that only the information that is needed is ever passed out. So I can have a cluster that is remotely managed, that checks out code, that the control plane never has access to. So this hybrid model has been really popular with our customers. We have customers in healthcare, we have customers in defense and in financial services, all these regulated industries. The flow of information is really critical. So this hybrid model allows you to deploy something that has the ease of a SaaS solution, but has the security of an on-prem solution while being centrally managed and easy to take care of. >> Yeah, it's a platform. It's what it is. It's not a tool. It's not a tool anymore. It's a platform. >> Exactly. >> I think the foundational aspect of this is critical. And you mentioned automation before. If you're going to go end-to-end automation, you have some stuff in the system that whether it hasn't been checked in yet. I mean, we know what this leads to. Disaster or a lot of troubleshooting and disruption. That's what it seems to solve. Am I getting that right? Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, it helps automate the whole process. But as you say, it's really like identify what needs not to be going all the way to production and really kind of avoid vulnerabilities or any flaws in the software. So it automates everything, but in a way that the automation can identify issues and avoid them from coming into the production. >> Well, great stuff here. I've got to ask you guys now that you've got that settled. It's really, I see the value there, how you guys are letting it grow organically and with Argo and then building that platform for businesses and developers. It's really cool. And I see the foundational value there. It just only gets better. How you guys contributing back to open source and helping the wider GitOps and Argo communities? Because this is, again, the rising tide that's bringing all the boats into the harbor, so to speak. So this is a good trend and people will acknowledge that. So how's this going to work as you guys work back into the open source community? >> So we work closely with both myself and the other maintainers worked closely with the community on the roadmap and making sure that we're addressing issues. I think if you look in the last quarter, we probably have upwards of 40 or 50 different issues that we've solved in terms of fixing a bug or adding features or things like that. So making sure that these tools, which are really the undergirding components of our platform, they have to be really robust. They have to be really strong. And so we're contributing those things back. And then when it comes to the scalability side, these are things that we can build into the platform. So the value should be really clear. I can deploy this, I can manage it myself, I can build tools on top of it. And if I want to start doing it at scale, maybe I want support. That's when I really am going to go to Codefresh and start saying, let's get the enterprise little platform. >> Awesome. GitOps, a lot of people like some naysayers may say, Hey, it's the latest fad. Is it here to stay? We were talking about big code earlier. GitOps, obviously seeing open source. Just every year, just get better and better and growth. I mean, I remember when I was breaking into the business, you have to sell under the table. Now it's all free and open and getting better every year. Just the growth of code. Is GitOps a fad? How do you talk to people who say that? I mean, besides slapping around saying wake up. I mean, how do you guys address that when people say it's just the latest fad? >> So if I may comment here and Dan feel free to chime in, I think that the GitOps is a continuation of a trend that everything is a source code. As a developer, many years ago myself and still writing code, always both code and code was the source of tool that's where we write the code. But now code actually is also describing how our application is running in production. And we've already seen kind of where it's get next. We also hear about infrastructure as a code. So now actually we storing the code the way the infrastructure should be. And I think that the benefit of storing all this configuration in a source code, which has been built to track changes, to be enabled to roll back, that is just going to be here to stay. And I think that's the new way of doing things. >> All right, gentlemen, great. Closing statements. Please share an update on the company. What it's all about? What event you got coming? I know you got a big launch. Can you take us through? Take us home. >> Join on February 1st, we're going to be launching the Codefresh software delivery platform. Raziel and I will be hosting the event. We've got a number of customers, a number of members of the community who are going to be joining us to show off that platform. So you're going to be able to see it in action, see how the features work, and understand the value of it. And you'll see how it works with GitOps. You'll see how it helps you deliver software at scale. That's February 1st. You can get information at codefresh.io. >> Raziel, Dan, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Pretty good showcase. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations. Great venture. Loved the approach. Love the growth in cloud native and you guys sure on the cutting edge. Fresh code, people love fresh code, codefresh.io. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay, this is the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. Cloud scale, software, data. That's the future of modern applications being developed, changing the game to the next level. This is the CUBE's coverage season two episode one of the ongoing AWS Startup series here in theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Welcome to this Kube Conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson. And today we have a very special guest from Red Hat, Nick Barcet. Nick is the Senior Director of Technology, Technology Strategy at Red Hat. Nick, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you. It's always a pleasure to be visiting you here virtually. >> It's fantastic to have you here. I see a new office surroundings at Red Hat. Have they taken a kind of a nautical theme at the office there? Where are you joining us from? >> I'm joining from my boat now, I've been living on my boat for the past few years, and that's where you'll find me most of the time. >> So would you consider your boat to be on the Edge? >> It's certainly one form of Edge. You know, there are multiple forms of Edge and a boat is one of those forms. >> Let's talk about Edge now. We're having this conversation in anticipation of KubeCon CloudNativeCon that's coming up North America 2021, coming up in Los Angeles. Let's talk about specifically the Edge, where the Edge, Edge computing and Kubernetes come together from a Red Hat perspective. Walk us through that, talk about some of the challenges that people are having at the Edge, why Kubernetes is something that would be considered at the edge. Walk us through that. >> Let's start from the premises that people have been doing stuff at the Edge for ages. I mean, nobody has been waiting for Kubernetes or any other technology to start implementing some form of computing that is happening in their stores, in their factories, wherever. What's really new today is when we talk about Edge computing, it's reusing the same technology we've been using to deploy inside of the data center and expand that all the way to the Edge. And that's what, from my perspective, constituents, Edge computing or the revolution it bring. So that means that the same GitOps, DevSecOps methodology that we were using into that center are now expandable all the way to those devices that leaves in where locations and that we can reuse the same methodology, the same tooling, and that includes Kubernetes. And all the efforts we've been doing over the past couple of years has been to make Kubernetes even more accessible for the various Edge typologies that we are encountering when discussing with our customer that have Edge projects. >> So typically when we think of a Kubernetes environment, you're talking about containers that are contained in pods, that live on physical clusters, despite all of the talk of a no-code and serverless, we still live in a world where applications and microservices run on physical servers. Are there practical limitations in terms of just how small you can scale Kubernetes? How far, how close to the Edge can you get with the Kubernetes deployment? >> So in theory, there is really no limit. As the smallest devices are always bigger than Kubernetes itself. But the reality is you never use just Kubernetes, you use Kubernetes with a series of other projects that makes it complete, or for example, stuff that is going to be reporting telemetry, components that are going to help you automatically scale, et cetera. And the further you go into the Edge, the less of these competence you can afford. So you have to make trade-offs when you reduce the size of the device. Today, what Red Hat offers, is really concentrated to where we can deliver a full OpenShift experience. So the smallest environments on which we would recommend to run OpenShift at the Edge is a single node is roughly 24 gigabytes of RAM, which is you could buy it, sorry, which is already a relatively big Edge device. And when you go a step lower then, that's where we would recommend using a standard rail for Edge configuration or something similar. Not Kubernetes anymore. >> So you said single node, are you let's double click on that for a second. Is that a single physical node that is abstracted in a way to create some level of logical redundancy? When you say single node, walk us through that. We've got containers that are in pods, so what are we talking about? >> You have, based on your requirements, you can have different way of addressing your compute need at the Edge. You can have those smallest of clusters. And this would be three nodes that are delivered, with is the control plane and the worker nodes integrated into one. When you want to go a step further, you could use worker nodes that are controlled remotely via a central control plane that is at a central site. And when you want to go, even one step further deploy Kubernetes on a very small machine, but that remains fully functional even if disconnected that's when you would use the thing that is not anymore a cluster, which is a single note, Kubernetes where you still have access to the full Kubernetes API, regardless of the connectivity of your site, whether it's active or not, whether you're at sea or in the air or not. And that's where we still offer some form of software high vulnerability, because Kubernetes, even on a single node, it'll still detect if a container dies and restarted and provide similar functionality like this, but it won't provide hardware availability since we are a single node. >> And that makes sense. Yeah, that makes, yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I would suggest that we refer to that as a single node cluster, just because we like to mix it up with terminology in our business and sometimes confuse people with it. >> Technically, that was the choice we made, actually. You like to call it a cluster because it's not a cluster >> Exactly. No, I appreciate that. Absolutely. So what's be explicit about what the trade-offs are there. Let's say that I'm thinking of deploying something at the Edge, and I'm going use Kubernetes to orchestrate my container environment and pretend for a moment that space and cost aren't huge limiting factors. I could put a three node cluster in, but the idea of putting in a single node is very, it's attractive. Where does, where's the line drawn in terms of what you would recommend from, you know, what are the trade offs? What am I losing, going to the single node cluster? See I just called that. >> Well, in a nutshell, you're losing hardware high availability. Meaning if one of your server fails since you only have one server, you lose everything. And there is no way around that. That's the biggest trade-off. Then you have also a trade-off on the memory used by the control plane, which you won't be able to use to do something else. So if I have a site with excellent connectivity and the biggest loss of connectivity might be counted in hours, maybe a remote worker use a better solution because this way, I have a single central-side that carries my control plane, and I can use all the RAM and all the CPU's on my local site to deploy my workloads, not to carries a control plane. To give you an example of these trade-off in the telco space, for example, if you're deploying an antenna in a city, you have plenty of antennas covering that city. And therefore, the loss of one antenna is not a big deal. So in that case, you will be tempted to use a remote worker because you will be maximizing your use of the RAM on the sites for the workload, which is let's have people establish communication using their phones. But now, we take another antenna that we are getting to locate in a very remote location. There, if this antenna fail, everybody fails. There's nobody that is able to make calls, even emergency vehicles cannot discuss together very often. So in that case, it's a lot better to have an autonomous deployment, something where the control plane and the workload itself are being run in one box. And this one box in fact can be duplicated. There could be a another box that is either seating in a truck in case of emergency or off, but on the antenna site, so that in case of a major failure, you have a possibility to re to restore it. So it really depends on what's your sets of constraints in terms of availability in SIM of efficiency of your RAM use is going to be that it's going to make you choose between one or the other of the deployment models. >> No, that's a great example. And so it sounds like it's not a one size fits all world, obviously. Now, from the perspective of the marketplace, looking in at Red Hat, participating in this business, some think of Red Hat as the company that deployed Linux 20 years ago. Help us make that connection between Red Hat today and what you've been doing for the last 20 years and this topic of Edge computing, 'cause some people don't automatically think of Red Hat an Edge computing. I do, I think they should, (chuckles) but help us understand that. >> Yeah, obviously a lot of people consider that Red Hat is Red Hat, Linux, and that's it. The Red Hat Enterprise Linux is what we've been known since our beginnings 25 years ago, and what has made our early success. But we consider ourselves more of an infrastructure company. We have been offering for the past 20 years, the various component that you need to deploy server, run and manage your workloads across data centers and make sure that you can store your data, and that you can automate your operations on top of this infrastructure. So we really consider ourselves much more of a company that offers everything that enables you to run your servers and run your workloads on top of your server. And that includes a tool to do virtualization, that includes tool to do continuous deployment of containers. And that's where Kubernetes entered in play about 10 years ago. Well, first it was OPAs that then became Kubernetes and the OpenShift offering that we have today. >> Yeah. Thanks for that. So I have, I've got a final question for you. It's a little bit off topic, but it's related, this is in the category of Nick predicts. So when does Nick predict that we will get to a point where we tip beyond the 50/50 point cloud versus on-premises IT spending, if you accept today that we're still in the neighborhood of 75 to 80% on-premises. When will we hit the 50/50 mark? I'm not asking you for the hundred percent cloud date, but give us a date, you give us a month and a year for 50/50. >> Given the progression of cloud, if there was no Edge, we could said two to three years from now, we would be at this 50/50 mark. But the funny thing is that at the same time, as the cloud progresses, people start realizing that they have needs that needs to be solved locally. And this is why we are deploying Edge-based solution, solution which reliably can provide answers, regardless of the connectivity to the cloud, regardless of the bandwidth. There are things that I would never want to do, like feeding a size on feeds from 4K cameras, into my cloud environment that won't scale, I won't have the bandwidth to do so. And therefore, maybe the answer to your question is, it's going to be asymptotic, and it's almost impossible to predict. >> So that is a much better answer than giving me an exact date and time, because (chuckles) because it reveals exactly the reality that we're living in. Again, there is, you know, it's fit for function. It's not cloud for cloud's sake, compute resources, data, resources have a place that they naturally belong oftentimes. And oftentimes that is on the Edge, whether it's on the edge of the edge of the world in a sailboat or out in a single server, not node, or I keep wanting to single node cluster, it's killing me. I dunno why, I think it's so funny, but a single node implementation of OpenShift where you can run Kubernetes on the Edge, it's a fascinating subject. Anything else that you want to share with us that we didn't get? >> I think one aspect that we never talk enough is how do you manage at the scale of Edge? Because even though each Edge site is very small, you can have thousands, even hundreds of thousands of these single node something that are running all over the place. And I think that what you're seeing in advent cluster management for Kubernetes, and particularly the 2.4 version that we are going to be announcing this week and actually releasing in November is I think a pretty good answer to that problem on how do I deploy with zero touch these devices? How do I update them, upgrade them? How do I deploy the workloads on top of that? How do I ensure to have the right tooling to deploy that at the scale? And we've done the testing now of ACM with up to 2,000 clusters, connected to a single ACMs. And in the future, we are planning on building federation of those, which really gives us the possibility to provide the tooling needed to manage at its scale. >> Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. That's whenever we start talking about anything in the realm of containerization and Kubernetes scale starts to become an issue. It's no longer a question of a human being managing 10 servers and 50 applications. We start talking about tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of instances where it's beyond human scale. So that's obviously something that's very, very important. Well, Nick, I want to thank you for becoming a Kube veteran once again. Thanks for joining this Kube Conversation from Dave Nicholson, this has been a Kube Conversation in anticipation of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2021. Thanks for tuning in. (bright music)

(cheery synth music) >> Hello, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We're here for a KubeCon CloudNativeCon preview for the North America show in Los Angeles, here in person and a virtual event. Two of the co-chairs are with me again this year, Constance Caramanolis, principal engineer at Splunk, and of course, Stephen Augustus, head of Open Source at Cisco. Great to see you guys. Hey, thanks for coming on, virtually, for the preview. >> Great to be had! >> Constance: Thank you for having us. >> Stephen: Great to see you again John. (laughing) >> Constance: Yeah. >> So I love... well, KubeCon has gotten, It's my favorite event every year. This is where the DevOps actually, where the people are reading the tea leaves, connecting the dots, but also meeting up and doing what communities do best, which is set the agenda for the next, next generation that's happening in person. Last year, it was virtual. We had the European virtual KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This year a mix. Give us a taste of updates that you want to share. Let's get, let's get into it. >> Sure. Uh, so I think, you know, um, I-I-I think uh, seeing this event in particular and uh, you know, one, we've got this, we've got this hopeful r-return to you know, some semblance of normalcy. I know that you know, over the last year and change, we've been uh, we've been kind of itching t-t-to see each other in person. And, and you know, and, and I-I think I say on a lot of uh, interviews that I, you know, one of my favorite parts of any conference is the, is the hallway track, right? It's really hard to, and, and we've- we've made, you know, we've made strides to replicate it, but there's- I don't think there's anything uh, you know, close t-to being in person, right? And, and getting to, to bounce i-ideas off of uh, your, your co-conspirators, (laughs) co-conspirators or compatriots. Um, so I'm- I'm really excited for that, um, I love the, I love the um, the mandates that we've put in place, uh, to make sure that people are uh, a little bit more safe. Um, and, you know, overall, like seeing uh- I-I think one of the things that gets me most excited is the, is the uh, the set of day zero events, right? Um, I-I think the, the increase in the uh, day zero events, we, we've got uh, Constance, what's the, what's the count at now? I'm, I'm looking over it and, and it's uh, it's, it's massive, right? You know, SupplyChainSecurityCon, Uh, the, you know, the Cloud Native for Eclipse Foundation, it's beyond, >> Too, hmm, too many to count right off the bat when I'm looking at it. >> Too many, too many to count! >> And it's also like, this is a reduced number because some people decide or some, not people, like projects, decide to do virtual uh, days or a non-conference outside of the normal KubeCon cycle because of... >> Yeah, well, let's get, let's get- >> that thing that should not be named. >> Let's get into some of the data. >> I want to jump into the trends. But just for the folks watching, this is a hybrid event, and- >> Yeah. >> There's going to be this day zero, which is the pre-programming. Which by the way, I think has evolved into a format that's just tremendous. You got the pregame, pre-event action. Very dynamic, very ad-hoc, ephemeral in the, in the, in the, in the, in the people getting together and making things happen. Then you got the structured event. It's uh, the 11th to the 12th on the pre-programming, day zero stuff, which you talked about, and then the 13th to the 15th, the main conference. It's in-person and virtual, so it's going to be a hybrid event, which should be dynamic because you have an in-person dynamic where it's a scarce resource of the face-to-face, working and trying to create synchronicity with the asynchronous environment on virtuals. So it should be an action packed and a must-watch event. So I'm personally excited, we'll be there in person. But I got to ask you guys, the co-chairs, how are you guys handling this? How are the papers coming, what's the call for talks? How are you structuring things? Can you just give a quick overview of what's, what's happening on the talks? >> Uh, talks, uh, I feel like it went really well this round. >> Um, really like, wide variety. I know it's pretty vague, but there's a wide variety of topics, uh, things that are getting I think, I feel like more popularity, like security is getting more popular. Uh, business value, one thing that I'm really passionate about, is getting a lot more traction. Uh, student track 101 is also, as always, I guess, as ever since it's been, since inception has been popular, um, it's definitely getting to the point where we're actually, well not to the point, but maybe it's just being more highlighted that a lot of the, like, like, some of the like great content from the day zeros are also showing up in KubeCon and then like, vice versa and they're kind of everywhere. Uh, Yeah, the talks I think was really- >> John: The sessions, the sessions are always driving it. Stephen I'm like from a, from a, from a maturisation standpoint, you have the, the, the people developing and then you got the f... the things are getting hardened. Can you talk about the trends around, what's kind of hardening out from a project basis on these sessions and what's forming relative to the trend line this year. >> Yeah. So, you know, so to Constance's point, I think that we're, we're starting to see some diversity in, or continued diversity and kind of the personas that are coming into the conference, right? So whether you're talking about that continuing 101 track or, the student track, which, you know, a lot of people have, have kind of jumped in and seeing that as an opportunity to, to, to not only start becoming part of the community, but also to immediately contribute to content. And then you've got that For me? It's, it's security, all day, right? I think, you know, I think that, you know, there's not a week, there's not a week that passes that I don't have a chat with someone around what's happening in security lately. And I think you'll see that highlighted in in all of the keynotes that we have planned there are, there's not one, not two, but three uh, keynotes around software supply chain security, and some of the different things that you have to consider as we're kind of walking into the space of you know, protecting, protecting your, your build pipeline, protecting your production artifacts, so that's something that really, you know, that goes to that, you know, that goes to my work on that, you know, in Kubernetes for SIG release, release engineering, that's, you know, something that we, we know that there are countless downstream consumers, right? So, some, you know, some that we may not have even had contact with yet from the upstream perspective, right? So it's, it's paramount for us to make sure that, you know, everything that we're pushing out to the community and to the wider world is safe to consume. So, so security is definitely top of mind for me. I would say for, you know, lots of things around you know, continue, continuing to talk about uh, GitOps observability. And I think, and I think that, you know, each of these, what's, you know, what's fun about um, each of these, uh, the, each of these topics, each of these areas is that they're all interconnected, right? So more and more you're seeing, you're seeing, oh, well, you know, the, you know, the Tekton folks are, you know, are talking to the Flux folks. And, and they're talking to the, the folks who are working on uh, Sigstore and Rekor and, and, and all of these fun tools about how to integrate into, you know, how to integrate into those respective areas. Um, so it's, it's, it's really a time of um, collaboration underscored by um, you know, protecting, protecting the community and the, and the end users. >> John: Yeah. We're seeing a lot of ah, um, you know, the security discussions. I mean, how far can you shift left before it becomes like standard, right? So like, you know, we're seeing that being built in. I got to ask you guys also on the trend of DevOps there's been a lot of conversations around Cloud Native, around obsolete management and in terms of ability, but data, the role of data has been different approaches on how people are leveraging machine learning and AI, can you, did that come up a lot in, in some of the, the discussions and the analysis? Because everyone's slapping machine learning on things these days, and there's a little bit of that going on, but it seems to be data and machine learning and horizontal scale, classic DevOps, things are happening. What's your reaction to, to some of those things that are happening? Can you guys, is there anything happening there? >> I feel like this year wasn't that big of a machine learning year in terms of submissions. >> Yes. >> I'm certain you agree with that, but it wasn't, as I think, like, security took a lot and, and, like, and this might also just be like, thinking about it holistically now, like security was, had such amazing submissions that it probably took a little bit of the spotlight off of when we were looking at the machine learning ones. Um... >> John: So security... >> Also I'm biased, so I think >> John: So security dominated more than, than everyone else did. >> Yeah. I think, you know, I think for this year, security is, security is dominating. I, you know, I think we even talked about this in the last uh, chat we had, um, the, you know, kind of from the AI side, I think you're, we're, we're running, there have been discussions around the, uh, you know, bias in, in AI models and um, you know, how we work through that, um, I'm not sure that we have any content for that this time around, but I think it, yeah, but I think, you know, as we start to talk about like how we collect data, you know, are, are we collecting the right types of data, how we serve it, especially as a, those relate to like collecting data at the edge, right? Like, how do we, how do we, how, how do we even deploy applications at the edge? We, we have a lot of potential solutions for that. But when you combine that with, well, how do we, how do we scrape information from the things that we're deploying from the edge, right? Or, or, or some, some of the things you'll see in the, in the program. >> Constance and Stephen, talk about the community vibe right now, because you know, that's the biggest part of this conference is seeing how the people come together, but it's also the vibe sets the tone. What's, what's the current vibe in the community that you're seeing and what do we expect this year at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon? >> Yeah, I'm going to say, I imagine the community's tired and it's been a long few, two years. It feels like 10 years, it feels like forever. And a lot of the in-person aspect that used to be like social validation, we just get like is lacking, so, but that being said, there's still been amazing, like collaboration from like the open, from like the Observability and Open Telemetry part. Like, I am seeing so many projects within the tag Observability collaborate together and making that a focus. And so even though we are tired, it's still, we're still doing good work. And we're still making a point of trying to keep that community tight even though it's much harder on Zoom and right, you know, it's going to try and do the awkward, like Zoom handshake. It just doesn't do the same thing there. But to Stephen's keynote, can't remember how long ago it is, about like resiliency. We are pretty resilient. And we're also, I think we're all learning to work at a slower pace because maybe we were working too fast beforehand. And I think that, I think that's a really good takeaway from all of this. So I think it's going to, for as safe as it can be to have some variation, it's probably going to just be like, it's going to be a big party because we're going to finally get to see each other after a long time then. >> John: Yeah. >> I hope we get to do that in a safe way. >> Stephen, you bring it in, Steve, you go. Oh, Steve, you always got the energy certainly on camera, but in person as well. >> (laughs) >> This in-person dynamic this year is huge. >> Yeah, we, >> Wh-what do you think is going to happen? What, give us your take. >> Yeah, so I mean, I, you know, I would echo Constance in saying that, you know, we're, we're, we're all tired, we're all very tired at this point. Um, but I, you know, but, they, they, the conference tagline for, for North America is, uh, is 'Resilience Realized', right? I think that, you know, throughout this, this year, um, the, the contributors, maintainers of, of all of these, you know, CNCF projects have made incredible strides uh, to empower the communities to, to, uh, to be together, to be family, to, to work better together, um, in spite of, you know, in spite of uh, location, location uh, boundaries, in spite of, you know, uh, uh, health concerns, like we've, we've really made the effort to um, to show up for each other. Um, so I think that, you know, what we'll see in the conference and, and, you know, one of my favorite tracks personally um, is the, the community track, um, so lots of, lots of content around, you know, a-around community building, around uh, I think more of the, the meta of, of maintaining communities, right? So the, you know, the, the, the, the code of conduct committee, as well as uh, steering committee uh, for Kubernetes got together um, last conference to, to talk about the values and principles of the community, right? And, and I think that, you know, that, that needs to continue to be highlighted, um, you know, some of the conversations that we've had around um, how you maintain groups, you know, how do you maintain groups, especially as um, especially as a, the, the, the size of the group grows, right? Once you escape that kind of like Dunbar's number uh, area, like it gets harder and harder to s have the s the same bandwidth conversations that you would in a smaller group, right? So making sure that we're continuing to, to have valuable conversations, but also be inclusive while we're doing that is, um, is something that will continue to be highlighted over the next year and change really. >> Well. I'm really impressed by what you guys do. And I know we're all tired getting, and we want to get back and, hats off to pulling it together and creating a great program because your, your group and your community is a social construct. It's, it's, we're all social animals. And this whole COVID virtual, now hybrid really is going to, going to show in real world as all playing out, and we're going to see how it evolves, and evolution is part of social communities. And I think that the progress has been made and, you know, and with the team and you guys putting together this great event. So my hat's off to you guys, thanks for, for doing that. Appreciate, great stuff. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Now, final question, um, what do you expect? Given, I mean, this is a social organization, um, things evolve, we're social organisms. We're going to be face to face. We're going to have virtual. We're going to have great talks, security obviously is prime time, Mainstream Enterprise Adoption in Kubernetes and Cloud Native. This is crunch time, so what do you guys expect for this event? Share your thoughts. >> Yeah, I-I think there's going to be lots of um, lots of fun, uh, I think uh more social conversations, less structured. Um, you know, i-if you have, if you haven't had the opportunity to kind of hang out on CNCF Slack, while one of these events are happening, we, we've spun up something of like a hallway track. Um, so, so people are hanging out, they're giving their takes during the um, you know, you know, in between uh talks, there, there was also a, you know, kind of after conference uh, hangout for, for the hallway track that we did. Um, so w we definitely want to continue some of that stuff. Um, as you know, between the last few conferences we've launched uh, Cloud Native TV um, and lots of great producers uh, and, and, and content over there. So you'll see, you'll see, kind of, us start to break the wall between um, that virtual content that we've created uh, across the last few months, as well as, you know, th s seeing that turn physical, right? Um, so how do we, you know, how, how do we, how do we manage that and h-how do we make that seamless for people who may be maybe participating virtually as opposed to physically, right. That there's going to be a bit of um, there, there's an aspect of like, you're, you're almost running two conferences, right. Simultaneously. So. >> It's a total experiment in the real world, but it's, it's all important. It's super important. Constance, your thoughts on, on the event, what people are expecting to see and surprises that might emerge, what do you, what's your thoughts? >> Um, I, well actually, see while you were saying something, I had an idea that I think we can make it more connected, So I just wrote it down, um, uh, I, I have some silly ideas when it comes to the conference stuff, which is why Stephen's laughing, although you can't see it. >> (both men laughing) >> Um, my, I, like, I'm, I'm trying to go in with no expectations, mostly because I'm so excited. I don't want to be disappointed um, and I don't want to miss out. I think, I actually think that probably a lot of the discussions are just going to be like, hi, like, it's so nice to actually meet you and just talk about random things. Maybe not as much technology discussions as maybe there would be at a normal, I like, ah, I don't want to say normal, right? Because we are in a new normal, like what KubeCon was several years ago. Um, I think that I do. I think that it would be probably a little painful, this hybrid part, since we don't know what to expect. I think there's going to be so many things that we're going to look back and be like, face palm and be like, oh, we should've thought about these things. So for anyone who's attending virtually, apologies in advance, and please give us feedback. There's so many things I know we're going to have to improve, we just, we don't know them yet. So please be patient with us and know that we wish that you could be there in person with us too. >> Um, uh, I don't know. >> Well, that's the thing, that's the thing. >> I'm just going to go in there with an open mind. Well that's the thing, it's, it's new, it's all new, virtual. So it's, it's, we're learning together. That's, I think, people put too much pressure. I think people like expecting, you know, some magic to happen, but it's all evolving. And I think the magic is the event. And I think, I think it's going to work out great. And by the way, there's no downside it's, you know, learn. >> Exactly! >> So, yeah. So, you know, so one of the things that I um, I, I have this spiel that I give to um, the release team, the Kubernetes release team, every time we start a new cycle, right? Um, you've got a set of returning contributors. You've got a set of uh, net new contributors, right? And um, and, and moving into the release team, you're kind of like thrown right into the fire of Kubernetes, right? So it's, it's, it's one of those things. I, I, I come in and, and, and, essentially say, um, be curious, question everything. Um, this is like, it's a, it's, it's very much like a human experience, right? And I think that, you know uh, to, to Constance's point, we're all here to, to learn and grow, make this a better experience for everyone. Um, so bring yourself, like bring yourself to the conference, right? I think it's, you know, in, in terms of offering feedback, we have, you know, feedback forms for every one of the, you know, every one of the, the talks that you attend, um, you can feel free to reach out to Constance, and myself and, and Jasmine, um, if you have feedback that you want to give personally, you know, there, there are, there are ways to get in touch with us. There are ways to make the event better. And I think that every time we, we uh, we incorporate, like, we incorporate a lot of this feedback into the next conference. So every time um, you provide some piece of information for us, that gives us an opportunity to make it better, right? So this conference is built, uh, this conference is built by the community, right? The, you know, it's not just a, you know, it's not a, you know, it's not a body just uh making, making decisions kind of off the cuff, it's, we are taking your ideas and we're trying to turn them into a program, right? So it's, it's the maintainers, it's the end users. It's the students, it's people who have never used Kubernetes in their lives, or never used Cloud Native technology in their lives. It's folks who are coming from the, you know, the, the corporate IT kind of classic uh, background, and, and just trying to understand how to be effective in this, in this new world for them. Um so it's like, it takes all kinds and we, we don't get it done without your feedback. So please, um, as you're coming to the conference, whether it's in-person or virtually, like, bring yourselves, be curious, ask questions, um, provide that feedback. And then um, and I think, you know, from the, you know, th-the kind of from the uh, the, yes, we need to be human, but we also need to um recognize some of the, the requirements, uh, that, that are, that we have going into this conference. So reminder that, you know, all of, all of the events are under, you know, under a code of conduct, please make sure to familiarize yourself with uh, code of conduct. I think that um, you know, I-I think that coming back into a physical space for a lot of people, the um, the, some of the social skills can, can erode over time. So please not just bring yourself, bring your best self. And, you know, be sure to review all of the policies around health and, and safety as we go into this. >> Constance, Stephen, that's great stuff. Love talking with you guys. Constance, you want to add something? Go ahead. >> I want to add one thing, also be gentle with yourself and like, be really kind to yourself and others, because this is going to be really overwhelming. I haven't been around more than 10 people at once in almost two years. And so, just remember to be kind as well, always be curious and question everything. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. Great reminder. This is what it's all about, face-to-face. Face-to-face, presence, being together, but also having the openness and the community around you. A lot of mentoring, you guys have a great community for people coming in that are new and there's great mentors, people are open and cool, great community. Thanks for coming on for this special preview for KubeCon CloudNativeCon, thank you so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of Kubecon CloudNative, and we've been every year of KubeCon. It's been in fantastic growth. Going the next level again in person, a lot of security, real time adoption should be uh, should be great, virtual and in-person. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (cheery synth music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2021 virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon 2021 CloudNativeCon Europe. Part of the CNCF and ongoing, could be in there from the beginning, love this community, theCUBE's proud to support and continue to cover it. We're virtual this year again because of the pandemic but it looks like we'll be right around the corner for a physical event, hopefully for the next one, fingers crossed. Got a great guest here from Red Hat. Siamak Sadeghianfar, a Senior Principal Product Manager. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming in. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, this topic's about GitOps, Pipelines, code. Obviously Infrastructure as Code has been the ethos since I can remember going back to 2008 and the original cloutaroti vision. And we were always talking about that. Now it's mainstream. Now it's DevSecOps. So, it's now, day two operations, shifting left with security. OpenShift is continuing to get, take ground. Congratulations on that. So my first question is you guys announced the general availability of OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps at KubeCon. What are, what's this about? And what's the benefits for the customer. Let's get into the news >> Thanks for, to begin with for the Congress and this, this is definitely a hot topic around the DevSecOps. And the different variations of that year about some versions that during in, in FinTech and other verticals as well. The idea is here really is that CI/CD has been around for a long time, continuous integration and continuous delivery, as one of the core practices of the DevOps movement. DevOps movement is quite widespread, now. You, you see reports of above 90% of organizations are in the process of adoption in their journey. And this is one of the main practices but something that has become quite apparent is that many of these organizations that are investing more and more in Cloud Native apps and adopting Cloud Native ways of building applications the tooling and technology that they use for CI/CD since CI/CD is nothing new is from 10 years old, five years old pre Kubernetes era which is not quite Cloud Native. So there is always a clash of how do I build Cloud Natives application using these technologies that are not really built for Cloud Native space and an OpenShift Pipelines OpenShift GitOps is really an opening in this direction and bring more Cloud Native ways of continuous integration and continuous delivery to customers on OpenShift. >> Got it, so I got to ask you, so a couple of questions on this topic, I really want to dig into. Can you describe the Cloud Native CI/CD process versus traditional CI/CD? >> Sure, so traditional when we think about CI/CD there is usually this monolithic solutions that are running on a virtual machine on a type of infrastructure that they use to deploy applications as well. 'Cause you, you need reliability and you have to be making an assumption about an infrastructure that you're running on. And when you come to Cloud Native infrastructure you have a much more dynamic infrastructure. We have a lot less assumptions. You might be running on a public cloud or on premise infrastructure or different types of public cloud. So these environments are often also containerized. So there are, there's a high chance you're running on a container platform, regardless if it's a public or on premises. And with the whole containers, you, you have different types of disciplines and principals to think in, about your infrastructure. So in the Cloud Native ways of CI/CD, you're running most likely in a container platform. You don't have dedicated infrastructure. You are running mostly on demand. You scale when there is a demand for running CI/CD, for example, rather than dedicated infrastructure to it. And also from the mode of operation from organization perspective, they are more adapted to this decentralized ways of ownership. As a part of the DevOps culture, this comes really with that movement, that more and more development teams are getting ownership of some portion of the delivery of their applications. And it's cognitive CS/CD solutions, they focus on supporting these models that you go away from that central model of control to decentralize and have more ownership, more capabilities within the development teams for delivering application. >> Okay, so I then have to ask you the next question. It's like you, like a resource, you'd say: Hey Siri, what is, what is GitOps? What is GitOps? 'Cause that's the topic that's been getting a lot of traction, everyone's talking about it. I mean we know DevOps. So what is the GitOps model? Can you define that? And is that what a, it that what comes after DevOps? Is it DevOps 2.0, what is the GitOps model? >> That's a very good question. GitOps is nothing really new. It's rather a more descriptive way of DevOps principles. DevOps talks about the cultural changes and mindset and ways of working. And when it comes to the, to the concrete work flow it is quite open for interpretation. So GitOps is one, a specific interpretation of how you, you do continuous integration and continuous delivery, how we implement DevOps. And the concept have been around for a couple of years. But just recently, it's got a lot of traction within the Cloud Native space. >> So how does GitOps fit into Kubernetes then? 'Cause that's going to be the next dot that we want to connect. What is that, what is, how, how. How does GitOps fit into Kubernetes? >> So GitOps is really the, the core principle of GitOps is that you, you, you think about everything in your infrastructure and application in a declarative manner. So everything needs to be declared in, in, in a number of gate repositories and you drive your operations through Git Workflows. Which if you think about it is quite similar to how Kubernetes operates. The, the reason Kubernetes became so popular is because of this declarative way of thinking about your infrastructure. You declare what you expect and Kubernetes actualizes that on, on some sort of infrastructure. So GitOps is, is, is exact same concept, but the, but applied not to the infrastructure itself, but to the operations of that infrastructure, operations of those applications. It becomes a really nice fit together. It's the same mindset really applied in different place. >> It's like Kubernetes is like the linchpin or the enabler for GitOps. Just a whole nother level of, I mean, I think GitOps essentially DevOps 2.0 in my opinion because it takes this whole nother level above that for the developer modern developer because it allows them to do more. So it's been around for a while. We've been talking about this, it's got a new name but GitOps is kind of concept has been around. Why is the increase adoption happening now in your opinion or do you have any data on or any facts or opinion on why it's such an increase in, in conversation and adoption? >> You had the, you had like very accurate point there that Kubernetes has been a great enabler for, for DevOps and later the same applies to GitOps as well because of that, that great fit. It has been, GitOps the concept has been there but implementation of that has been quite difficult before Kubernetes and also for non-containerized environments. Kubernetes is, is a very potent platform for this kind of operation because the the mindset and the ways of working is really native to how Kubernetes thinks. But there is also another driver that has been influential in, in the rise of GitOps in the last year or two. And this is an observation we see at a lot of our customers, that the number of clusters that organizations are deploying, Kubernetes clusters increasing. As their maturity increases they get more comfortable with Cloud Native way of working and transfer the workflows to become Cloud Native, they are, they are having, they move more and more of their infrastructure to Kubernetes clusters. So a new challenge rises with this. And now that I have a larger number of clusters how do I ensure consistency across all these, all these clusters? So before I had to deploy an application to production environment, perhaps, which meant two clusters across two geographical zones. Now I have to deploy to 20 clusters. And these 20 clusters also change over time. So this week is a different 20 clusters then three weeks from now. So this, this dynamic ways of working and the customers maturing in, in dealing with Kubernetes operating communities has increased really the pace of adoption of GitOps because it addresses a lot of those challenges that customers are dealing with in this space. >> Yeah, you bring up a really good challenge there. And I think that's worth calling out, this idea of expansion. And I won't say sprawl because it's not a sprawl of cluster. It's more a state provisioning and standing up clusters. And you said they they're changing because the environment has needs and the workloads might have requirements. This makes total sense in a DevOps kind of GitOps way. So I get that and I see that definitely happening. So this brings up the question, if I'm a customer, what I'm worried about is I don't want to have that Hadoop factor where I build a cluster and it takes too long to manage it, or I can't measure it, or understand the data, or have any observability. So I want to have an ease of provisioning and standing up and I want to have consistency that my apps who are using it, don't have to be, you know mangled with or coded with. So, you know, this combination of ease of deploying, ease of integrating, ease of consuming the clusters becomes a service model. Can you share your thoughts on how that gets solved? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that, that's a great point because as, as this is happening, there is also heterogenesis in this, this type of Kubernetes infrastructure window. Like, they're all Kubernetes but this problem also has multiple facets as customers running on multiple public clouds and, and combination of that with their on-premise Kubernetes clusters. And that is, they may as well be OpenShift across all this, all this infrastructure. But the, the problem that GitOps helps its customers advise that they can have the exact same operational model across all these apps and infrastructure, regardless of what kind of application it is. And regardless of where OpenShift is installed or if you're using that combined with a public cloud managed a Kubernetes stats, is the exact same process because you're relying on, on the Gits Workflows, right? And even beyond that, this standard workflow has the benefit of something that many organizations are already familiar with. So if you think about what GitOps operations mean it is essentially what developers have been always using for developing applications. So this standardizes the operations of both application and infrastructure as solvers. >> Listen to me, I got to ask you as the product manager on the whole pipelining in Kubernetes deployments. In your opinion, share your perspective on, real quick, on Kubernetes, where we're at? Because just the accelerated adoption has been phenomenal. We've seen it mature this year at KubeCon. And certainly when KubeCon North America happens, you're going to see more and more end user participation. You're going to see much more end-user use cases. You mentioned clusters are growing. What's the state of Kubernetes from your perspective, from a developer mindset? >> So Kubernetes, I think it has moved from a place that it was seen as only a, a type of infrastructure for Cloud Native applications because of the capability that it provides to a type of infrastructure for any type of application, any type of workload. I think what we have seen over the last two years is, is a shift to expansion of the use cases. And if, if you are, you talked about head open if you are a data scientist, or if you are an AIML type of developer or any type of workload really, see use cases that are coming to the Kubernetes platform as the targets type of infrastructure. So that's really where we see Kubernetes at right now is the really, the preferred infrastructure for any type of workload. And I believe this trend going to to keep continuing to address any of the challenge that exists that prevents maybe part of the, a particular type of workload to address that within the platform and opens that to add to, to developers. Which means for the developers now, once you learn the platform you are really proficient in a, you have this skills for any type of application or any type of infrastructure because they're all standardized, regardless of what type of application or workloads or technology you're specialized in. They're all going to the exact same platform. So it's very standardized type of skills across organizations, different type of teams that they have. >> Awesome, great, thanks for sharing that insight and definition. You're like a walking dictionary today for our CUBE audience. Thank you for all this good stuff. Appreciate it. Final question for you is, what does it mean for developers that are using Jenkins or other cloud-based CI solutions like GitHub Actions? What, what's the impact to them with all this from a working standpoint? 'Cause obviously you've got to make it workable. >> Right, so it's CI/CD also like it's, it's it's great to see like with DevOps adoption, there are many organizations that already have processes in place. They have, they're already using a CI tool or a CD tool. They might be using Jenkins. A lot of organizations really use, use Jenkins even though it comes with challenges and you might be using public cloud services or cloud-based CI tools, like you have Actions, you have pipelines and so on. So we are very well aware of the existing investment that many organizational teams have made. And we make sure that OpenShift as a platform works really well alongside all these different types of CI and CD technology that exists. We want to make sure that for developers starting on OpenShift, they, they have a really solid Cloud Native foundation for CI/CD. They have of strategies included but replaceable type of strategies. So they, they have a supportive platform that is Cloud Native, that gives them capability that matches the type of Cloud Native workloads that they have on the platform but also integrate well with existing tooling that exists around CI/CD. So that they can match and choose if they want to replace a piece of that with an existing investment that they have done, integrated with the rest of the platform. >> Awesome, well, great to have you on. Having the principal product manager is awesome, to talk about the two new announcements here. OpenShift pipe, Pipelines, and OpenShift GitOps. Final, final question, bumper sticker this for the audience. What's the bottom line with OpenShift Pipelines and GitOps? What's the, what's the bottom line benefit for customers? >> It's a, so OpenShift Pipeline and OpenShift GitOps makes it really simple for customers to create Cloud Native Pipelines and GitOps model for delivering application. And also making cluster changes across a large range of clusters that they have, make it really simple to grow from that point to many, many clusters and still manage the complexity of this complex infrastructure that it will be growing into. >> All right, Siamak Sadeghianfar, Senior Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. Here for the KubeCon + CloudNativeCon, Europe. CUBE conversation, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks John, thanks for having me. Okay, CUBE coverage continues. I'm John Farrow with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2021 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE'S coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, always great to talk to the KubeCon co-chairs and we have Stephen Augustus Head of Open Source at Cisco and also the KubeCon co-chair great to have you back. And Jasmine James Manager and Engineering Effectives at Twitter, the KubeCon co-chair, she's new on the job so we're not going to grill her too hard but she's excited to share her perspective, Jasmine, Stephen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So obviously the co-chairs you guys see everything upfront Jasmine, you're going to learn that this is a really kind of key fun position because you've got to multiple hats you got to wear, you got to put a great program together, you got to entertain and surprise and delight the attendees and also can get the right trends, pick everything right and then keep that harmonious vibe going at CNCF and KubeCon is hard so it's a hard job. So I got to ask you out of the gate, what are the top trends that you guys have selected and are pushing forward this year that we're seeing evolve and unfold here at KubeCon? >> For sure yeah. So I'm excited to see, and I would say that some of the top trends for Cloud Native right now are just changes in the ecosystem, how we think about different use cases for Cloud Native technology. So you'll see lot's of talk about new architectures being introduced into Cloud Native technologies or things like WebAssembly. WebAssembly Wasm used cases and really starting to and again, I think I mentioned this every time, but like what are the customer used cases actually really thinking about how all of these building blocks connect and create a cohesive story. So I think a lot of it is enduring and will always be a part. My favorite thing to see is pretty much always maintainer and user stories, but yeah, but architecture is Wasm and security. Security is a huge focus and it's nice to see it comes to the forefront as we talked about having these like the security day, as well as all of the talk arounds, supply chain security, it has been a really, really, really big event (laughs) I'll say. >> Yeah. Well, great shot from last year we have been we're virtual again, but we're back in, the real world is coming back in the fall, so we hopefully in North America we'll be in person. Jasmine, you're new to the job. Tell us a little about you introduce yourself to the community and tell more about who you are and why you're so excited to be the co-chair with Stephen. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jasmine James, I've been in the industry for the past five or six years previous at Delta Airlines, now at Twitter, as a part of my job at Delta we did a huge drive on adopting Kubernetes. So a lot of those experiences, I was very, very blessed to be a part of in making the adoption and really the cultural shift, easy for developers during my time there. I'm really excited to experience like Cloud Native from the co-chair perspective because historically I've been like on the consumer side going to talk, taking all those best practices, stealing everything I could into bring it back into my job. So make everyone's life easier. So it's really, really great to see all of the fantastic ideas that are being presented, all of the growth and maturity within the Cloud Native world. Similar to Stephen, I'm super excited to hear about the security stuff, especially as it relates to making it easy for developers to shift left on security versus it being such an afterthought and making it something that you don't really have to think about. Developer experience is huge for me which is why I took the job at Twitter six months ago, so I'm really excited to see what I can learn from the other co-chairs and to bring it back to my day-to-day. >> Yeah, Twitter's been very active in open source. Everyone knows that and it's a great chance to see you land there. One of the interesting trends is this year I'll see besides security is GitOps but the one that I think is relevant to your background so fresh is the end user contributions and involvement has been really exploding on the scene. It's always been there. We've covered, Envoy with Lyft but now enterprise is now mainstream enterprises have been kind of going to the open source well and bringing those goodies back to their camps and building out and bringing it back. So you starting to see that flywheel developing you've been on that side now here. Talk about that dynamic and how real that is an important and share some perspective of what's really going on around this explosion around more end user contribution, more end user involvement. >> Absolutely. So I really think that a lot of industry like players are starting to see the importance of contributing back to open source because historically we've done a lot of taking, utilizing these different components to drive the business logic and not really making an investment in the product itself. So it's really, really great to see large companies invest in open source, even have whole teams dedicated to open source and how it's consumed internally. So I really think it's going to be a big win for the companies and for the open source community because I really am a big believer in like giving back and making sure that you should give back as much as you're taking and by making it easy for companies to do the right thing and then even highlighting it as a part of CNCF, it'll be really, really great, just a drive for a great environment for everyone. So really excited to see that. >> That's really good. She has been awesome stuff. Great, great insight. Stephen, I just have you piggyback off that and comment on companies enterprises that want to get more involved with the Cloud Native community from their respective experiences, what's the playbook, is there a new on-ramps? Is there new things? Is there a best practice? What's your view? I mean, obviously everyone's growing and changing. You look at IT has changed. I mean, IT is evolving completely to CloudOps, SRE get ops day two operations. It's pretty much standard now but they need to learn and change. What's your take on this? >> Yeah, so I think that to Jasmine's point and I'm not sure how much we've discussed my background in the past, but I actually came from the corporate IT background, did Desktop Sr, Desktop helped us support all of that stuff up into operations, DevOps, SRE, production engineering. I was an SRE at a startup who used core West technologies and started using Kubernetes back when Kubernetes is that one, two, I think. And that was my first journey into Cloud Native. And I became core less is like only customer to employee convert, right? So I'm very much big on that end user story and figuring out how to get people involved because that was my story as well. So I think that, some of the work that we do or a lot of the work that we do in contributor strategy, the SIG CNCF St. Contributor Strategy is all around thinking through how to bring on new contributors to these various Cloud Native projects, Right? So we've had chats with container D and linker D and a bunch of other folks across the ecosystem, as well as the kind of that maintainer circle sessions that we hold which are kind of like a private, not recorded. So maintainers can kind of get raw and talk about what they're feeling, whether it be around bolstering contributions or whether it'd be like managing burnout, right? Or thinking about how you talk through the values and the principles for your projects. So I think that, part of that story is building for multiple use cases, right? You take Kubernetes for example, right? So Ameritas chair for sync PM over in Kubernetes, one of the sub project owners for the enhancements sub project which involves basically like figuring out how we intake new enhancements to the community but as well as like what the end user cases are all of the use cases for that, right? How do we make it easy to use the technology and how we make it more effective for people to have conversations about how they use technology, right? So I think it's kind of a continuing story and it's delightful to see all of the people getting involved in a SIG Contributor Strategy, because it means that they care about all of the folks that are coming into their projects and making it a more welcoming and easier to contribute place so. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. And one of the things you mentioned about IT in your background and the scale change from IT and just the operational change over is interesting. I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about, get Op and, SRAs and how, in colleges is that an engineering track or is it computer science and it's kind of a hybrid, right? So you're seeing essentially this new operational model at scale that's CloudOps. So you've got hybrid, you've got on-premise, you've got Cloud Native and now soon to be multi-cloud so new things come into play architecture, coding, and programmability. All these things are like projects now in CNCF. And that's a lot of vendors and contributors but as a company, the IT functions is changing fast. So that's going to require more training and more involvement and yet open source is filling the void if you look at some of the successes out there, it's interesting. Can you comment on the companies that are out there saying, "Hey, I know my IT department is going to be turning into essentially SRE operations or CloudOps at scale. How do they get there? How could they work with KubeCon and what's the key playbook? How would you answer that? >> Yeah, so I would say, first off the place to go is the one-on-one track. We specifically craft that one-on-one track to make sure that people who are new to Cloud Native get a very cohesive story around what they're trying to get into, right? At any one time. So head to the one-on-one track, please add to the one-on-one track, hang out, definitely check out all of the keynotes that again, the keynotes, we put a lot of work into making sure these keynotes tell a very nice story about all of the technology and the amount of work that our presenters put into it as well is phenomenal. It's top notch. It's top notch every time. So those will always be my suggestions. Actually go to the keynotes and definitely check out the one-on-one track. >> Awesome. Jasmine, I got to get your take on this now that you're on the KubeCon and you're co-chairing with Stephen, what's your story to the folks that are in the end user side out there that were in your old position that you were at Delta doing some great Kubernetes work but now it's going beyond Kubernetes. I was just talking with another participant in the KubeCon ecosystem is saying, "It's not just Kubernetes anymore. There's other systems that we're going to deploy our real-time metrics on and whatnot". So what's the story? What's the update? What do you see on the inside now now that you're on board and you're at a Hyperscale at Twitter, what's your advice? What's your commentary to your old friends and the end user world? >> Yeah. It's not an easy task. I think that was, you had mentioned about starting with the one-on-one is like super key. Like that's where you should start. There's so many great stories out there in previous KubeCon that have been told. I was listening to those stories and the great thing about our community is that it's authentic, right? We're telling like all of the ways we tripped up so we can prevent you from doing this same thing and having an easier path, which is really awesome. Another thing I would say is do not underestimate the cultural shift, right? There are so many tools and technologies out there, but there's also a cultural transformation that has to happen. You're shifting from, traditional IT roles to a really holistic like so many different things are changing about the way infrastructure was interacted with the way developers are developing. So don't underestimate the cultural shift and make sure you're bringing everyone to the party because there's a lot of perspectives from the development side that needs to be considered before you make the shift initially So that way you can make sure you're approaching the problem in the right way. So those would be my recommendation. >> Also, speaking of cultural shifts, Stephen I know this is a big passion of yours is diversity in the ecosystem. I think with COVID we've seen probably in the past two years a major cultural shifts on the personnel involved, the people participating, still a lot more work to get done. Where are we on diversity in the ecosystem? How would you rate the progress and the overall achievements? >> I would say doing better, but never stop what has happened in COVID I think, if you look across companies, if you look across the opportunities that have opened up for people in general, there have been plenty of doors that have shut, right? And doors that have really made the assumption that you need to be physical are in person to do good work. And I think that the Cloud Native ecosystem the work that the LF and CNCF do, and really the way that we interact in projects has kind of pushed towards this async first, this remote first work culture, right? So you see it in these large corporations that have had to change the travel policies because of COVID and really for someone who's coming off being like a field engineer and solutions architect, right? The bread and butter is hopping on and off a plane, shaking hands, going to dinner, doing the song and dance, right? With customers. And for that model to functionally shift, right? Having conversations in different ways, right? And yeah, sometimes it's a lot of Zoom calls, right? Zoom calls, webinars, all of these things but I think some of what has happened is, you take the release team, for example, the Kubernetes release team. This is our first cycle with Dave Vellante who's our 121 released team lead is based in India, right? And that's the first time that we've had APAC region release team lead and what that forced us to do, we were already working on it. But what that forced us to do is really focused on asynchronous communication. How can we get things done without having to have people in the room? And we were like, "With Dave Vellante in here, it either works or it doesn't like, we're either going to prove that what we've put in place works for asynchronous communication or it doesn't." And then, given that a project of this scale can operate just fine, right? Right just fine delivering a release with people all across the globe. It proves that we have a lot of flexibility in the way that we offer opportunities, both on the open source side, as well as on the company side. >> Yeah. And I got to say KubeCon has always been global from day one. I was in Shanghai and I was in hung, Jo, visiting Ali Baba. And who do I see in the lobby? The CNCF crew. And I'm like, "What are you guys doing here?" "Oh, we're here talking to the cloud with Alibaba." So global is huge. You guys have nailed that. So congratulations and keep that going. Jasmine, your perspective is women in tech. I mean, you're seeing more and more focus and some great doors opening. It's still not enough. We've been covering this for a long time. Still the numbers are down, but we had a great conference recently at Stanford Women in Data Science amazing conference, a lot of power players coming in, women in tech is evolving. What's your take on this still a lot more work to done. You're an inspiration. Share your story. >> Yeah. We have a long way to go. There's no question about it. I do think that there's a lot of great organizations CNCF being one of them, really doing a great job at sharing, networking opportunities, encouraging other women to contribute to open source and letting that be sort of the gateway into a tech career. My journey is starting as a systems engineer at Delta, working my way into leadership, somehow I'm not sure I ended up there but really sort of shifting and being able to lift other women up has been like so fortunate to be able to do that. Women who code being a mentor, things of that nature has been a great opportunity, but I do feel like the open source community has a long way go to be a more welcoming place for women contributors, things like code of conduct, that being very prevalent making sure that it's not daunting and scary, going into GitHub and starting to create a PR for out of fear of what someone might say about your contributions instead of it being sort of an educational experience. So I think there's a lot of opportunities but there's a lot of programs, networking opportunities out there, especially everyone being remote now that have presented themselves. So I'm very hopeful. And the CNCF, like I said is doing a great job at highlighting these women contributors that are making changes to CNCF projects in really making it something that is celebrated which is really great. >> Yeah. You know that I love Stephen and we thought this last time and the Clubhouse app has come online since we were last talking and it's all audio. So there's a lot of ideas and it's all open. So with a synchronous first you have more access but still context matters. So the language, so there's still more opportunities potentially to offend or get it right so this is now becoming a new cultural shift. You brought this up last time we chatted around the language, language is important. So I think this is something that we're keeping an eye on and trying to keep open dialogue around, "Hey it matters what you say, asynchronously or in texts." We all know that text moment where someone said, "I didn't really mean that." But it was offensive or- >> It's like you said it. (laughs) >> (murmurs) you passionate about this here. This is super important how we work. >> Yeah. So you mentioned Clubhouse and it's something that I don't like. (laughs) So no offense to anyone who is behind creating new technologies for sure. But I think that Clubhouse from, if you take platforms like that, let's generalize, you take platforms like that and you think about the unintentional exclusion that those platforms involve, right? If you think about folks with disabilities who are not necessarily able to hear a conversation, right? Or you don't provide opportunities to like caption your conversations, right? That either intentionally or unintentionally excludes a group of folks, right? So I've seen Cloud Native, I've seen Cloud Native things happen on a Clubhouse, on a Twitter Spaces. I won't personally be involved in them until I know that it's a platform that is not exclusive. So I think that it's great that we're having new opportunities to engage with folks that are not necessarily, you've got people prefer the Slack and discord vibe, you've got people who prefer the text over phone calls, so to speak thing, right? You've got people who prefer phone calls. So maybe like, maybe Clubhouse, Twitter Spaces, insert new, I guess Disco is doing a thing too- >> They call it stages. Disco has stages, which is- >> Stages. They have stages. Okay. All right. So insert, Clubhouse clone here and- >> Kube House. We've got a Kube House come on in. >> Kube House. Kube House. >> Trivial (murmurs). >> So we've got great ways to engage there for people who prefer that type of engagement and something that is explicitly different from the I'm on a Zoom call all day kind of vibe enjoy yourselves, try to make it as engaging as possible, just realize what you may unintentionally be doing by creating a community that not everyone can be a part of. >> Yeah. Technical consequences. I mean, this is key language matters to how you get involved and how you support it. I mean, the accessibility piece, I never thought about that. If you can't listen, I mean, you can't there's no content there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the Cloud Native community, right? Thinking through accessibility, internationalization, localization, to make sure that our contributions are actually accessible, right? To folks who want to get involved and not just prioritizing, let's say the U.S. or our English speaking part of the world so. >> Awesome. Jasmine, what's your take? What can we do better in the world to make the diversity and inclusion not a conversation because when it's not a conversation, then it's solved. I mean, ultimately it's got a lot more work to do but you can't be exclusive. You got to be diverse more and more output happens. What's your take on this? >> Yeah. I feel like they'll always be work to do in this space because there's so many groups of people, right? That we have to take an account for. I think that thinking through inclusion in the onset of whatever you're doing is the best way to get ahead of it. There's so many different components of it and you want to make sure that you're making a space for everyone. I also think that making sure that you have a pipeline of a network of people that represent a good subset of the world is going to be very key for shaping any program or any sort of project that anyone does in the future. But I do think it's something that we have to consistently keep at the forefront of our mind always consider. It's great that it's in so many conversations right now. It really makes me happy especially being a mom with an eight year old girl who's into computer science as well. That there'll be better opportunities and hopefully more prevalent opportunities and representation for her by the time she grows up. So really, really great. >> Get her coding early, as I always say. Jasmine great to have you and Stephen as well. Good to see you. Final question. What do you hope people walk away with this year from KubeCon? What's the final kind of objective? Jasmine, we'll start with you. >> Wow. Final objective. I think that I would want people to walk away with a sense of community. I feel like the KubeCon CNCF world is a great place to get knowledge, but also an established sense of community not stopping at just the conference and taking part of the community, giving back, contributing would be a great thing for people to walk away with. >> Awesome. Stephen? >> I'm all about community as well. So I think that one of the fun things that we've been doing, is just engaging in different ways than we have normally across the kind of the KubeCon boundaries, right? So you take CNCF Twitch, you take some of the things that I can't mention yet, but are coming out you should see around and pose KubeCon week, the way that we're engaging with people is changing and it's needed to change because of how the world is right now. So I hope that to reinforce the community point, my favorite part of any conference is the hallway track. And I think I've mentioned this last time and we're trying our best. We're trying our best to create it. We've had lots of great feedback about, whether it be people playing among us on CNCF Twitch or hanging out on Slack silly early hours, just chatting it up. And are kind of like crafted hallway track. So I think that engage, don't be afraid to say hello. I know that it's new and scary sometimes and trust me, we've literally all been here. It's going to be okay, come in, have some fun, we're all pretty friendly. We're all pretty friendly and we know and understand that the only way to make this community survive and thrive is to bring on new contributors, is to get new perspectives and continue building awesome technology. So don't be afraid. >> I love it. You guys have a global diverse and knowledgeable and open community. Congratulations. Jasmine James, Stephen Augustus, co-chairs for KubeCon here on theCUBE breaking it down, I'm John Furrier for your host, thanks for watching. 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>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With coverage of KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stuart Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the European show, which of course for 2020 is virtual. Always love when we get to talk to the practitioners, as well as many of them heavily involved in what happens at the CNCF, you know, all these open source communities. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guest Katie Gamanji. She is a Cloud Platform Engineer with American Express, and she's also a member of the CNCF's TOC, which is the technical oversight committee. Katie, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me today. I'm quite excited to be here. >> Excellent. Well, you are, as I mentioned, you're part of the TOC. You also present at the show last year. You presented at one of the KubeCon shows this year. As I mentioned, you were with American Express now. I believe it was Conde Nast, You shared some of the journey along those lines. Maybe for our audience, give us a little bit about, you know, your background, and what's got you involved in, you know, some of these projects in communities. >> Absolutely. Oh, such a good question. I can talk forever about that. My passion about Cloud Native. So, my name is Katie Gamanji, and I am one of the Cloud Platform Engineer for American Express. I joined American Express around five months ago, and I am part of the team that aims to transform the current platform, by embracing the Cloud Native principles, and making the best use of the open source tools. As mentioned previously, I've been working for Conde Nast. I've been in that role for almost two years. And as part of that role, we aim to create a centralized globally distributed platform that had Kubernetes as a central piece. And that was the role which actually got me involved more into the Cloud Native tooling, and I've been exploring them quite heavily since then. And that's why I wanted to get more in terms more contribution to the community. I've been doing that previously for different talks, and actually writing blog posts on different, giving different guides on how to start using some of the tooling. However, this year I decided to apply for TOC. And I've been elected as a TOC from the end user perspective, so I'm representing pretty much the overview of what end users think that the next direction should be within the Cloud Native landscape. And for the last, actually for the past five months, I've been on the TOC, with the CNCF, and it's only 11 of us. And we are in charge to make sure that we can guide, and set this technical vision for this year for the CNCF landscape. >> Yeah. Katie, I definitely want to talk about the TOC piece, but I want to back up a little bit. And you talked about some of the tooling, you talked about the community. Help me understand a little bit, you know, from a business standpoint, why you know, Conde Nast, American Express, looking towards using, Kubernetes and all of these open tours toolings. What was the charter, the challenge put before them, that felt that doing things this new way would help them. >> I think this actually goes a couple of years back. In my previous role before Conde Nast, I was in a team which aimed to provision infrastructure, but it was in a more, how can I say old fashioned manner? We had to configure our data centers manually, configure the VMs and processes. We had (indistinct) of automation. But at the time, this was maybe three years ago. I started to look into Kubertetes, and it was still baby steps, like, there was interest from the community, and I really wanted to, kind of get my hands on it more. And when I was looking for a role, which was at Conde Nast, I was looking for something which aimed to introduce containers in the entire infrastructure. And I think Conde Nast actually was very appealing as a role because not many expect for a media company to invest in technology, and actually the underlined infrastructure. So, from that perspective, I thought it's actually quite a good use case to change this perspective in the community. As well, with Conde Nast, it was a very international company. We had different business units around the world. All of them had different tech stacks. So, the challenge itself, how do we unify that? How do we centralize the deployment process of the application and serving our requests? But at the same time, have these individualized layer for every single market to still personalize their content. So, it was a very good project, I think, for me to further go into the Cloud Native to link, and actually definitely proved to be the right role for that. And currently I am in a different role. It's actually a financial company. But I think this is my personal challenge. I think there is a perception of financial companies moving towards modernization of their infrastructure, but it's still going quite slowly. And I think my personal challenge in this perspective is to make sure that actually FinTech is a thing, but FinTech in Cloud Native, actually using open source tooling is possible. Obviously, we can transition that to some of the secondary base, maybe not the core base of the business, but this transition, actually getting the change going is the most important bit. Once actual goes, it's just a boulder like, downhill, which is going to take everything around, and refactoring bit by bit. >> Yeah. Katie, you brought up a really important point. You know, in today's world, especially, you know, this year 2020 with the global pandemic going on, being able to react fast is so important regardless of what industry you're in. You talked about in your previous role, you had a global rollout to work across a lot of environments. Help us understand a little bit underneath the covers. You know, using this tool set, how does this help you move faster? How does it, you know, in some ways unify teams, regardless of what challenges they have? >> I think for us at least at Conde Nast, it was quite important to have one platform, so actually centralized all of our required, actually gather all our requirements, and translate them in within the platform. So, what we actually wanted, was to us to have Kubernetes as the gravitational point. Now, with Kubernetes, we'd have some of the main functionalities such as portability or flexibility. We'd be able to scale to very easily without, actually with minimal effort, but more importantly, we'll be able to transport our platform to different regions. So, to actually replicate the entire tech stat. So once we have these centralized platform, it was very easy for us to distribute them. For example, in regions across the US. And that time I was working there at least. There was an intentional strategy to replicate the tech stack in China. And that'll be very easy because with Kubernetes you just have this lifting shift capabilities. As long as you have BMs, you'll be able or compute, you'll be able to run the entire Conde Nast tech stack. So that was a very kind of big point for us to move to Kubernetes. Whilst I think in American Express, the strategy is completely different. It's still a lot of heritage infrastructure we have at the moment, actually we are running on Kubernetes. There is but the provider itself is Open shave This proving to be showcasing some of the issues for us moving forward, and we'd like to transition to a more neater way to run Kubernetes. And this potentially means, we haven't finalized the decision yet but it might we'd be using probably a cloud provider, or it might be the case of actually running Kubernetes self service. So we've actually got to maintain our clusters. This is not defined, but the underlying idea is that we want to be more kind of modern version of Kubernetes or managing Kubernetes moving forward. So this is one of the strategies. But I think within American express, the main underlying idea is that we really want to inner source most of the configuration. Historically we had different contractors and vendors working on our bits and pieces, we'd like to actually get all of these in house and have a centralized way to manage our infrastructure. So this is the underlying project which I think is going to take a while, but again there is an intention to include Cloud Native to link and technologies, and I think it's a very healthy thinking in terms of technology. >> Well Katie, you highlighted two really important topics that we've seen out there. Number one is exactly where my infrastructure is, it's going to change and I don't need to think about it. So you talked about public cloud, data centers, it might change in the future. And number two, making sure that you have the skill set in house. Something we definitely learnt from the outsourcing trends of the past was, when things need to be changed, if I had to rely on someone else it became very difficult. So if you're leveraging Kubernetes and you have the developer chops to be able to respond to the business in an agile way, you're going to be much more ready to be able to handle whatever happens in the future. >> Exactly >> So important. >> I want to switch and talk a little bit about your TOC work, presenting at the show. It's great to see companies enabling their employees to participate in this sort of thing. Help me understand how for you personally and what is the support that you get from your last job, your current job to participate in these open source projects in communities. >> Right. I think both of the companies, Conde Nast and American express, they're quite interested in been part of the Cloud Native community. With Conde Nast, they actually a part of end users. With American Express I think there is a thinking to actually join the end user community. So this might be something which will happen in future. I cannot guarantee but I'm hoping. This is going to be again one of my personal challenges, making sure we get in the community and share some of our used cases. But for now I think both of the companies actually understand the value of been part of actually using Open Source, but more importantly, understanding how other companies use that. Not one use case, especially when it come to Kubernetes, not one Kubernetes platform is going to be the same. There's always going to be different underlying technologies that plug in into it. There's always going to be different ways to use different tooling. And having these concentrated community and source of information, I think the companies actually understand the value in that and contributing to that. So I think, this is something which I've been quite passionate about to actually understand some of the strengths, to understand how some of the tooling are used, and if there is an actual hope for a project, or it's something which actually specialize into a very minimal kind of niche problem, and is going to be useful for maybe one or two big companies, it depends. So I think this is something I've been passionate about and I've actually had a support throughout. In my previous company and my current company I have very strong support from my higher ups to actually contribute more and be part of the end users community, and as such being a TOC as well. Which comes with a bunch of responsibilities as well. But I think in terms of either support, definitely I had the necessary support all the way through which I'm quite thankful. >> Katie, you mentioned some of your passions, I know from what I've read online that you're passionate about some of the tooling there, and that's some of what you're sharing through your presentations. So, I'd love if you could share a little bit about what we're going to be talking about at the Europe show right now and any other kind of tools that are getting your time and attention these days. >> So I think lately, I've been exploring Cluster API the new release. I've been waiting for new release. Actually everyone has been waiting for the new release for a couple of months. Now we actually have v1L for three end points with some of the cool features such as, manage control place for Cluster. And the second tool or set of toolings I'm working lately are the ones which concentrate on the Gitops model. So during the session at Kubecon in Europe this year, I will be presenting Cluster API, a guide on how to get started. So an overview of all the components necessary to create your own Clusters. In different cloud providers as well. But I will crown that presentation by delivering a demo of how can you provision your Custer with Gitops. And I'm going to use Argo CD at the moment. And the end result is going to be provisioning your Cluster in AWS by having maybe one click, and you have a Cluster refill masters, maybe five nodes and you just wait. Pretty much you can have a coffee while your Cluster is provisioning. But more importantly with Cluster API, again we have usable manifest which will allow us to have this one interface to integrate with different cloud providers. So we actually have this interoperobility Of manifest across different cloud providers. So look forward to that. >> Excellent. Katie, last question I have for you, what advice would you give your peers? Where do you see need for more participation, as people that are getting into this environment. Where do you think they can help? >> Oh such a good question. I think contribution is necessary in most of the sags In the Kubernetes community. So, I think it depends on the passion everyone has, if they're quite passionate about the networking, or storage or even service, there is going to be a group of people that have the same passion and interest with you. So please reach out and contribute. I think I never think I'll like to mention, you done necessarily need to be an active coder to be part of the sags or to be part of the Cloud Native. Because being in technology of course is an advantage, however, most of the ideas in actually making sure that we cover used cases for different tooling, comes from a diverse user base as well. So if you have an interest I think that's going to be very good engine for to further enable different ideas within the sags. So I wouldn't be able to recommend a particular project, I think this is very specific to everyone's daily role (indistinct) But yeah I think within the CNCF, we have a collection of sags for which you pretty much would find a place for yourself and your skills. >> Well Katie thank you so much for sharing your journey and participating so actively in the community. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me today. >> All right stay tuned much more coverage from Kubecon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual edition, I'm Stuartt Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition of course. We're talking to practitioners, we're talking to contributors, we're talking to end users from around the globe where they are, and of course when we talk about the CNCF, it's not just Kubernetes, there's a lot of projects in there, and it's not just for building things in the cloud, one of the interesting use cases that we've been talking about the last year or two has been about how edge computing fits into this whole ecosystem. To help us dig in a little bit deeper into that conversation, welcome on board one of our CUBE alumni, Nick Barcet, he is a senior director of technology strategy at Red Hat. Nick, great to see you again, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for inviting me again. >> All right, so as I teed up, containerization and Kubernetes, a lot of times people think about it's the big public cloud that's my data center, but of course, cloud is not a destination, there's so much happening with the containerized world, and of course these lightweight environments, when we can make them lightweight, makes sense to go to the edge, so if you could, just tell us where we are with the state of containerization and the cloud-native ecosystem, and where does that fit with edge computing today? >> So what we're seeing currently is every ISV, every customer we talk with, are converting to developing their application with container as a target. This is making it so much simpler for them to be able to establish their application wherever they want. Of course, when we add, for example, the operator framework that we just got accepted into the CNCF, and normalize how you're going to do day one and day two of the life cycle of this container, this is making things a lot simpler. And this is allowing us to have the same principle reapplied for deployments happening in the cloud, on your private data center, and anywhere at the edge. And that's really the core of our strategy, whether in the open source community, or as a commercial company. It is to make all these different footprints absolutely equal when you are writing code, when you're deploying code, when you're managing it. >> Yeah, Nick, we talk about the edge from my standpoint, tend to think that it is going to need a lighter weight, smaller footprint than if I'm thinking about my data center or the environment, reminds me some ways of of course Red Hat, but CoreOS was how do we build something that can be updated faster and be a thinner operating system. When we think of Kubernetes, Kubernetes today isn't as simple, there's obviously a lot of managed services out there, of course with OpenShift you've got an industry leading solution out there, but is there something different I need to do to be able to do containerization and Kubernetes at the edge? How does that fit? >> As a developer, as a user, I hope you have nothing different to do. It's our job to make our platform suit the requirement that are very specific to the edge. For example, if you're going to put Kubernetes inside of a plane, you're not going to be able to use all the space you want. You're very space-constrained. Or if you put it in a train, or if you put it in a boat, you're going to have different types of constraints. And we need to be able to have a implementation of Kubernetes that fits the smallest requirement, but still has the components that enables you as a developer or you as the administrator to feel at home regardless of the implementation of it. And that's the real beauty of what we are trying to do, and that's why we are not rushing it. We are trying to do it upstream so that we have something that is as smooth as possible across different points. >> All right, when we talk about going to the edge, one of the considerations of course is the network to get there. So help us connect what the impact is of 5G, where we are with the rollout, and are there any industries maybe that are leading the pack when it comes to this discussion? >> Yeah, so when I talk about 5G, I like to distinguish two things. There is 5G as the network that the carriers are currently deploying to support all kinds of terminal endpoints. And it happens that in order to have an efficient 5G deployment, operators use edge technology to deploy computing power as close as possible to the tower. So that the latency between your device and what is connecting you to the internet, the time packets take to go across that last mile, is as short as possible. There is a second case, which is also very interesting in the edge part. Which is private 5G, because private 5G enables the customer to establish his, let's say his own antenna, his own local 5G network completely secure, that will enable connecting sensors or devices of all kinds, without having to run wire, and in a much more reliable way than if you're using Wi-Fi or similar kinds of connectivity. So these two aspects are crucial to edge, one because edge is enabling the deployment of it, the other one because it's enabling the growth of the number of sensors without multiplying the cost like crazy. In terms of deployments, well, you know our largest reference is Verizon, and Verizon is moving forward with its plan. This is going very well, I believe they have communicated around this so I will point you around what Verizon has stated on their deployment, but we have multiple other customers starting their journey and clearly, the fact that we have the ability to deploy the stack on the version of Kubernetes that is basically the same regardless of where you're deploying it. That has the ability to support both containers and VM for those applications that are not yet containerized, makes a huge difference in the simplicity of this transition. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you talk about the conversion between virtual machines and containers. One of the big use cases often talked about for edge computing is in industrial manufacturing, and there you've got the boundary between IT and OT, and OT traditionally doesn't want to even think about all those IT conversions and challenges that they've got their proprietary systems for the most part, so is that something, speak to what you're seeing in that segment. >> So, it's interesting, because we just released last week our first inclination about the industrial blueprint that we are proposing. And for us, the convergence between IT and OT comes at when you have automation in the interpretation of data provided by sensors. This automation generally takes the form of machine learning algorithms, that are deployed on the factory floors, that analyzes the sensor data in real time, and will be able to predict failure, or will be able to look at video feed to verify that employees are respecting safety measures, and many many other applications. So because of the value this brings to the operational people, this bridge is very easily closed once you've resolved the technical difficulty, and the technical difficulty are mostly what I call plumbing. Plumbing that takes the form of norms being widely different between the industrial world and the IT world so far. Difficulties because you don't speak the same language. Let's take an example. In the industrial world, CAN is the way you're synchronizing time resources. In the IT world, we have been using other protocol, and more recently, especially in the telco space, we're using PTP. But it seems that PTP is now crossing over to the industrial world, so things are slowly but very safely evolving with something that is enabling this next wave of revolution into the factories. >> Yeah, Nick, it's been fascinating always to watch when you have some of those silos, and when is the right time that things pull together. Curious, one of the big questions in 2020 of course is with the global pandemic going on, which projects get accelerated, and which ones might be pushed off a little bit, where does edge computing fall in the conversations you're having with customers, is that something mission-critical that they need to accelerate, or is it something that might take a little bit longer, possibly even a delay with the current pandemic? >> So it's quite hard to answer this question because we are in an up slope. Is the slope less up now than it would have been without the pandemic, I have no way to tell. What I'm seeing is a constant uptick of people moving forward with their projects, in fact some projects are made, for example for worker safety, are made even more urgent than they were before, because by just analyzing video feed, you can ensure that your processes prevents too close contact between coworkers, and making them vulnerable in this way. So it really depends on the industry, I imagine, but right now we see the demand growing regardless of the pandemic. >> All right, Nick, you mentioned earlier that when I think about the edge, it should be the same code, I hopefully shouldn't have to think about it differently no matter where it is. That begs the question, help connect OpenShift for us as to what is Red Hat offering when it comes to the edge solution with OpenShift? >> So, you have, what we say is the edge is like an onion, where you have different layers. And every time I look at the onion in the perspective of a given customer, the layers are very different. But what we are finding is, similar requirements in terms of security, in terms of power consumption, in terms of space allocated for the hardware, and in order to satisfy these requirements, we found out that we need to build three new ways of deploying OpenShift, so that we can match all of these potential layers. The first one that we have released and are announcing this week is OpenShift deployable on three nodes, that means that you have your supervisors, your controllers, and your workers, on the same three physical machines. That's not the smallest footprint that we need, but it's a pretty good footprint to solve the case of a factory. In this environment, with these three nodes, we have something that is capable of being fully connected or working disconnected with. The second footprint that we need to be able to satisfy for is what we call single node deployment. And single node deployment from our perspective need to come in two flavors. The easy way, the one we're going to be releasing next quarter, is what we call remote worker node. So you have your controllers in a central site, and you can have up to 2000 remote worker nodes spread across as many site as you want. The caveat with this is that you need to have full time connectivity. So in order to solve for this connected site, then we need something that is a standalone single node deployment, and that's something that a lot of people have prototypes so far, and we are currently working on delivering a version that we hope is going to be satisfying 99% of the requirement, and is going to be fully upstream. >> All right, last piece on this, Nick, how should I be thinking about managing my environment when it comes to the edge, seen a lot of course from Red Hat at Red Hat Summit and talked to some of your peers, some recent announcements, so how do we plug in what's happening at the edge and make sure we've got full visibility and management across all of my environments? >> So if I had one word to explain what we need to do, it's GitOps. Basically, you need immutable deployments, you need to be pulling configuration and all information from a central site and adapt it to the local site, without manual intervention. You need full automation. And you need a tool to manage your policies on top of it, and of course aggregate information on how things are going. What we don't want is to have to sit one administrator per site. What we do not want is to have to send people on each site at the time of deployment. So you need to be abiding by this completely automated model in order to be edge compliant. Does that make sense? >> It does, and I'm assuming the ACM solution, Advanced Cluster Management, is a piece of that overall offer. >> Absolutely, ACM is the way we present, we organize policies, the way we get reporting information, and the way we do our GitOps automation. >> All right, so Nick, final question for you, give us a little bit of a look forward, you just mentioned earlier one of the things that's getting worked on is that single node disconnected type of solution. What else should we be looking at in the maturity of edge solutions in this containerizing Kubernetes world? >> So it's not only about the architecture that we need to support. It's a lot more about the workloads that we are going to have running there. And in order to help our customer make their choice, in how they design the network, we need to provide them with what we call blueprints. And in our mind, a blueprint is more than just a piece of paper. It's actually a complete set of instruction, abiding with this GitOps model that I described, that you can pull from a Git repository, that enables automation of the deployment of something. So for example, the first blueprint we are going to be releasing is the one for industrial manufacturing using AIML, and this is going to be something that we are going to be maintaining over time, accepting contribution from outside, and is an end to end example of how to do it in a factory. We are going to follow up with that with other blueprints for 5G, for private 5G, for how do you deploy that in maybe a healthcare environment, et cetera, et cetera, the idea here is to exemplify and help people make the right choices and also ensuring that the stack we provide at one point in time remains compatible given the complexity of the components we have in there over time, and that's really the thing that we think we need to be providing to our customers. >> All right, well Nick, thank you so much for giving us the update, in regards to edge computing, really important and exciting segment of the market. >> Thank you very much, 'twas a pleasure being with you once again. >> All right, and stay with us, lots more coverage from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay Jenny, great to see you again. >> Good to see you. >> James Governor, nail on the Keynote there. Chat was phenomenal. That was pre-recorded but James is also in the chat stream. A lot of good conversations. That hit home for me that keynote. One, because memory lane was going down right into the 80s when it was a revolution. And we got him in the green room here. James Governor, welcome. >> James is here, hi James. >> Here we go. >> Fresh off the keynote. >> It's always a revolution. (John laughs) >> Well, in the 80s, I used to love your talk. A couple of key points I want to share and get your thoughts on was just to some highlights for the crowd is one, you walk through. Some of the key inflection points that I think were instrumental and probably some other ones depending on your perspective of where you were in the industry at that time. Whether you were a systems programmer or a networking guy, there was a proprietary world and it was a revolution back then. And UNIX was owned by AT&T if no one remembers. You couldn't even use the word. You had to trade market. So we actually had to call it XINU which is UNIX spelled backwards in all the text and whatnot. And even open source software freeware was kind of illegal. MIT did some work, Northeastern and Berkeley and other schools. It was radical back then so-- >> Yeah, we've come a long way for sure. I think that for me that was one of the things that I wanted to really point to in the keynote was that yes we have definitely come a long way and development culture is about open culture. >> I think the thing that I like to point out especially hate to sound like I'm old but I am. But I lived through that and the younger generation coming and have all these new tools. And I got to say not that I walked through to school in the snow with no shoes on but it's a pretty cool developer environment now. But remember things were proprietary back then. If you start to see the tea leaves now, I look at the world, you see these silos. You see silos that's kind of, they're not nestle proprietary but they might necessarily be open. So you kind of have a glimpse of open source on these projects and these companies. Whether they're tech companies, it feels open but it might not be. It could be walled garden. It could be data being hoarded. So as data opens up, this is interesting to me because I want to get your thoughts on this because in a way it feels proprietary but technically it's not proprietary. What's your thoughts on this? Because this is going to be the next 20 years of evolution. What's your thoughts? >> I think the productivity wins. Whoever packages technology in a way that makes it most productive for people. That's what wins. And open source, what's productive. It is very accessible. It enabled new waves. Get installed and you've got a package from... You got access to just a world of open-source. A world of software that was a big revolution. And I guess the cloud sort of came next and I think that's been one of the big shifts. You talk about proprietary. What matters is how easy you make things to people to do their work. And in that regard, obviously Amazon is in fact a bigger distribution network. Makes technology super consumable by so many people. I guess I would say that open is good and important but it's not the only thing. As you say, data is a lock-in and it's right and people are choosing services that make them productive. Nobody worries about whether Amazon Lambda is proprietary. They just know that they can build companies or businesses or business processes on it. >> You know it's interesting back in the day just to kind of segue with the next topic. We were fighting proprietary operating systems, UNIX and others. We're also fighting for proprietary Network protocol stacks. SNA was owned by IBM. DECnet was digital, the number one network. And then TCP/IP and OpenSan's interconnect came out. That's the OSI model for us old ones. That set the table. That changed the face of everything. It really enabled a lot. So when I see containers, what Docker did early on the pioneering phases of Docker containers, it unleashed a new reality of coolness and scale and capabilities. And then in comes Kubernetes and in comes micro services. So this path is showing some real strength for new kinds of capabilities. So how does a developer navigate all this because data lock-in does it a data plane seems to be a control point. What are we fighting now in your opinion? shouldn't say we're fighting but what are we trying to avoid if operating systems was for closing opportunities and network protocol stacks before closing in the past? What do you see as barriers that need to be broken down in the open source world around going down this great path of micro services, decomposed applications, highly cohesive architectures? >> Honestly there's enough work to be getting on with without like fighting someone in that regard. I mean we're fighting against technical debt. I just don't think that people are serrated about fighting against proprietary anymore. I think that's less than a concern. Open-source technology is great. It's how most work gets done in our industry today. So you mentioned Kubernetes and certainly Docker. Though we did a phenomenal job of packaging up and experience that map to see CICD. That map to the developer workplace people like do. Phenomenal job and I think that for me at least when I look at where we are as an industry, it's all about productivity. So there are plenty of interesting new platforms. I think in my keynote, that's my question. I'm less interested in microservices than I am in distributed work. I'm interested in one of the tools that are going to enable us to become more productive, solve more problems, build more applications and get better at building software. So I think that's my sort of focus. There will always be lock-in. And I think you will also have technologies mitigate against that. I mean clear messages today from Docker about supporting multiple clouds. For a while at least multiclouds seem like something only the kind waivers were interested in but increasingly we're seeing organizations where that is definitely part of how they're using the cloud. And again I think very often it's within specific areas. And so we see organizations that are using particular clouds for different things. And we'll see more of that. >> And the productivity. I love the passion, love that in the keynote. That was loud and clear. Two key points I want to get your reaction on that. You mentioned one was inclusion. Including more people, not seeing news. It's kind of imperative. And also virtual work environments, virtual events. You kind of made a highlight there. So again people are distributed remote first. It's an opportunity to be productive. Can you share your thoughts on those two points? One is, as we're distributed, that's going to open the aperture of more engagement. More people coming in. So code of conduct not as a file you must read or some rule. Culturally embracing a code of conduct. And then also, virtual events, virtual groups convening like we're doing here. >> Yeah I mean for me at least Allison McMillan from github and she just gave such a great demo at the recent sunlight event where she finished and she was like, it was all about, I want to be able to put the kids to bed for a nap and then go code. And I think that's sort of thinking people band around the phrase ruling this together but I mean certainly parenting is a team sport. But I think it's interesting we're not welcome. It was interesting that was looking at the chat, going through, I was being accused of being woke. I was being accused of being a social justice warrior. But look at the math. The graph is pretty clear. Women are not welcomed in tech. And that means we're wasting 50% of available resource to us. And we're treating people like shit. So I thought I underplayed that in the talk actually. Something like, "Oh, why is he complaining about Linus?" Well, the fact is that Linus himself admitted he needed to change his persona in order to just be more modern and welcoming in terms of building software and building communities. So look we've got people from around the world. Different cultural norms. All of the women I know who work in tech suffer so much from effectively daily harassment. Their bonafides are challenged. These are things that we need to change because women are brilliant. I'm not letting you signaling or maybe I am. The fact is that women are amazing at software and we do a terrible job of supporting them. So women of other nationalities, we're not going to be traveling as much. I think you can also grow. No we can't keep flying around as much. Make an industry where single parents can participate more effectively. Where we could take advantage of that. There're 200 million people in Nigeria. That hunger to engage. We won't even give them a visa and then we may not be treating them right. I just think we need an industry reset. I think from a we need to travel less. We need to do better work. And we need to be more welcoming in order that that could be the case. >> Yeah, there's no doubt a reset is here and you look at the COVID crisis is forcing that function there because one, people are resetting and reinventing and trying to figure out a growth strategy. Whether it's a business or teams. And what's interesting is new roles and new responsibilities is going to emerge and I think you're right about the women in tech. I completely agree and have evidence myself and reported on it ad nauseam. But the thing is data trumps opinion. And the data is clear on this issue. So if anyone will call you a social justice warrior I just say pound sand and tell them that go on their way. And just look at the data and clear. And also the field is getting wider. When I was in computer science major back in the day, it was male-dominated yes but it was very narrow. Wasn't as broad as it is now. You can do things so much more and in fact in Kelsey Hightower's talk, he talks to persona developers. The ones that love to learn and ones that don't want to learn anything. Just want to code and do their thing. And ones that care about just app development and ones that just want to get in and sling k-8 around like it's nobody's business or work with APIs, work with infrastructure. Some just want to write code. So there's more and more surface area in computer science and coding. Or not even computer science, it's just coding, developing. >> Well, I mean it's a bigger industry. We've got clearly all sorts of challenges that need to be solved. And the services that we've got available are incredible. I mean if you look at the work of companies like Netlify in terms of developer experience. You look at the emergence of JamStack and the productivity that we're seeing there, it's a really exciting time in the industry. >> No doubt about that. >> And as I say I mean it's an exciting time. It's a scary time. But I think that we're moving to a world of more distributed work. And that's my point about open source and working on code bases from different places and what the CapCloud can enable. We can work in a different way and we don't all need to be in San Francisco, London, or Berlin as I said in the Keynote. >> I love the vision there and the passion. I totally agree with it. I think that's a whole another distributed paradigm that's going to move up the stack if you will and software. I think it's going to be codified in cloud native and cloud scale creates new services. I mean it's the virtual world. You mentioned virtual events. Groups convening like the 67,000 people coming together virtually here at DockerCon. Large, small one-on-ones group dynamics are a piece of it. So share your thoughts on virtual events and certainly it's people are now just kicking the tires, learning. You do a zoom, you do a livestream. You do some chat. It's going to evolve and I think it's going to look more like a CICD pipeline and anything else. As you start to bring media together, we get 43 sessions here. Why not make it a hundred sessions? So I think this is going to be one of those learning environments where it's not linear, it's different. What's your vision of all this if you had to give advice for the folks out there? Not event plans, with people who want to gather groups and be productive. What's your thinking on this? >> Well, it sort of has to happen. I mean there are a lot of people doing good work in this regard. Patrick Dubois, founder of DevOps days. He's doing some brilliant work delineating. Just what are all the different platforms? What does the streaming platform look like that you can use? Obviously you've got one here with theCUBE. Yeah, I mean I think the numbers are pretty clear. I mean Microsoft Build had 245,000 registered attendees and I think something that might have been to begin. The patterns are slightly different. It's not like they're going to be there the whole time but the opportunity to meet people where they are, I think is something that we shouldn't ignore. Particularly in a world not everyone again has the privilege of being able to travel. You're in a different country or as I say perhaps your life circumstances mean you can't travel. From an accessibility perspective, clearly virtual events offer an opportunity that we haven't fully nailed. I think Microsoft performance in this regard has been super interesting. They were already moving that way and Kobe just slammed it up to another level. What they did with Build recently was actually, I mean they're a media company, right? But certainly developed a focused media company. So I think you'll be okay. You're about the business of software John. Don't worry Microsoft don't give you some space there. (John and James laughing) We're under the radar at theCUBE 365 for the folks who are watching this. This is our site that we built with our software. So we're open and Docker was instrumental and I think the Docker captains were also very instrumental and trying to help us figure out the best way to preserve the content value. I personally think we're in this early stage of, content and community are clearly go hand in hand and I think as you look at the chat, some of the names that are on there. Some of the comments, really there's a new flywheel of production and this to me is the ultimate collaboration when you have these distinct groups coming together. And I think it's going to just be a data dream where people aren't the product, they're actually a contributor. And I think this open source framework that you're talking about is going to be certainly just going to evolve rapidly. I think it's just not even scratching the surface. I just think this is going to be pretty massive. And services whatever you want to define that. It could be an API to anything. It's going to be essentially the scale point. I mean why have a monolith piece of software running something. Something Microsoft teams will work well here. Zoom will work well there but ultimately what's in it for me the person? This is the key question. Developers just want to develop. You're going to hear that throughout the day. Kelsey Hightower brings up some great points in his session and Amanda silver at Microsoft, she had a quote on one of her videos. She said, "App developers are the first responders "in this crisis." And that's the first time I've heard someone say that out loud and that hits home for me because it's true. And right now app developers are one of the front lines. They're providing the app support. They're providing to the practitioners in the field. This is something that's not really written about in the press. What's your reaction to app developers are the first responders in this crisis. >> Well I mean first I think it's important to pay tribute to people that actually are first responders. Writing code can make us responsive but let's not forget there are people that are lacking PPE and they are on the frontline. So not precise manner but I might frame it slightly differently. But certainly what the current situation has shown us is productivity is super important. Target has made huge investments in building out its own software development capabilities. So they used to be like 70% external 30% internal and they turn that round to like 80% internal 20 external. And they've been turning on a dime and well there's so much going on at the moment. I'm like talking about target then I'm remembering what's happening in Minneapolis today. But anyway we'll talk about that. But yeah organizations are responding quickly. Look at the numbers that Shopify is happening because all sorts of business is something like we need to be an online business. What's the quickest way to do that. And Shopify was able to package something up in a way that they they could respond to challenges. Huge social challenges. I'm a big believer the future's unwritten at this point and I think there's a lot of problems out there you point out and the first responders are there I agree. I'm just thinking that there's got to be a better path for all of us. And this brings up the whole new roles and responsibilities around this new environment and I know you're doing a lot of research. Can you share some thoughts on what you're kind of working on now James? That's important, I'll see what's trending here at DockerCon is. Compose the relationship with Microsoft, we've got security, Dockers now, multicloud approach, making it easier, that's their bread and butter. That's what they're known for. They kind of going back to that roots of why they pioneered in the first place. So as that continues ease-of-use, what's your focus area right now that you're researching that you could share with the audience? >> Well, I mean I'd say this year for me I've got probably three key areas. One is what's called GitOps. So it's the notion that you're using Git as a system of record. So that started off randomly making changes, you have an audit trail. You begin to have some sort of sense of compliance in software changes. I think the idea of everything has to be by a sort of a pull request. That automation model is super thing to me. So I've been looking at that. A lot of development teams are using those approaches. Observability is a huge trend. We're moving to the idea of testing and production. The kind of stuff that's been evangelized so successfully by charity majors honeycomb. It's super exciting to me and it's true because in effect, you're always testing in production, your dev environment. I mean we used to have this idea that you'd have a Dev and a Dev stage. You're have a staging environment. The only environment that really matters is where the rubber meets the road. And that is deployment. So I think that having having better tools for that is one of the areas I'm looking at. So how are tools innovating that area? And it won't be the thing that this is my own personal thing. I've been talking about progressive delivery which is asking a question about reducing risk by really understanding the blast radius of the service to be able to roll it out to specific use of populations first. Understanding who they are and enrolling it up so it's the idea that like maybe you brought something out to your employees first. Maybe you are in California and you roll something out in Tokyo knowing that not many people are using that service. It is a live environment but people are not going to be adversely affected if it happens. So Canary's Blue-Green deployments and also experimentation. This is sort of one of the areas I'm being sort of pulled towards. It's sort of product management and how that's really converging with software development. I feel like that's one of the things I haven't fully, I mean I think it's when they have research focused but you have to respond to new information. Anyhow, I'm spending a lot of time thinking about the world of product management. It's those companies to be most respect in terms of companies that are crushing it in the digital economy. They have such a strong product management focused. Everything is driven by product managers that understand technology and that's an exciting shift. The one that I'm paying greater attention. >> You do some great work and I love the focus on productivity software development. Getting those app developers out there and it's interesting. I just think that it's such an exciting time. It's almost intoxicating. Some people drinking on Twitter online and having beers because they're in different time zone. But if you look up and down the action that's going on, you got at the application developers side, all the things you were mentioning services. But when you look at the cloud side, you got almost this operating system reset. It's a systems architecture. So you have the hall and that's up and down. The middle of the stack to the bottom, you have this operating systems thinking and evolution. And then you got at the top, the pure software developers. And this is again to me the big aha moment. For the industry there's a true opportunity to scale that in unbelievable ways. And you don't have to pick a side. You can do a top of the stack bottom stack. So I think kubernetes and micro services really bring this whole enablement piece to the table. And that fascinates me and I think that's going to change what the apps will look like. It'll give more productivity and then making the internet programmable unit, that's new systems. So that seems to be the trend. You're a systems guy, your girl or you're a developer. How do you see that evolving? Do you get to that level? >> Developer experience is not necessarily the key value of Kubernetes. It's supremely flexible sort of system. It does offer you that portability. But I think what I'm seeing now is how people are taking Kubernetes and kind of thinking, so you've got VMware, acquires Heptio, brings Pivotal into the fold, starting about what that platform looks like. I think Pivotal with cloud foundry did a great job of thinking through operator experience. Operator experience is not the same as developer experience. I think we're going to see a bit more specialization of roles. Meanwhile at that point, you've got the cloud players all doing pretty awesome job supporting Kubernetes. But it gives that portability promise. So I think for me, one of the things is not expecting everyone to do everything. It's like Kelsey said, some people just want to come into work and do their job and they're super important. And so VMware I think a history of certification of application environments. So of them it's sort of quite--and certification of humans. It's quite natural that they would be somebody that would think about how do we make Kurbenetes more consumable and packaged in a way that more people take advantage of it. Docker was such a phenomenon and now seeing how that sort of evolving into that promise of portability is beginning to be realized. So I think the specialization, the pendulum is going to swing back just a little bit. >> I think it's just great timing and congratulations on all the work and thanks for taking the time for participating in DockerCon with the Keynote. Taking time out of your day and coming in and doing this live interview. The chat looks good. Hit some great, get some fans in there. It's a great opportunity and I think Docker as the pioneers, pivoting in a new direction, it's all about developer productivity and James you've been on it. @monkchips is his Twitter handle, follow him, hit him up. I'm John Furrier here in the studio for DockerCon 2020. Ginebra CEO and you got Brett Fisher on the captain's channel. If you go to the site, you'll see the calendar. Jump into any session you want. They'll be live on the time or on-demand instantly. TheCUBE track has a series of enemies. You've got Amazon, we got Microsoft, get some great guests, great practitioners that are literally having an impact on society. So thanks for watching. James, thanks for spending the time. >> Thank you very much John. >> Okay James Governor, founder of Monkchips, great firm, great person-- >> RedMonk, RedMonk is the company. Monkchips is the Twitter. >> Redmonk, Monkchips. RedMonk, RedMonk. >> RedMonk is the company. >> RedMonk, RedMonk. >> @monkchips is his Twitter handle and RedMonk is the firm, thank you for the correction. Okay more coverage DockerCon after this short break. Stay with us. The next segment is coming up. Stay with us here at theCUBE DockerCon. (gentle music)