>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2019 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're in Barcelona, Spain and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage and this is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for the two live days of coverage is Mr. Cory Quinn. And joining us was on the main stage yesterday, is Cheryl Hung who is the Director of Ecosystems at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, or the acronym CNCF. Cheryl, welcome back to the program, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, I always have a great time with theCUBE. >> So, first of all 7700 people here, one of the things that strikes me is we go to a lot of shows. We even do a decent amount of international shows. The community here is definitely global, and it's not, sometimes it's the same traveling pack, some person's like, "Well not quite as many people here "as were in Seattle." I'm like, well this isn't just the contributors all going and some of their friends and family. We've had on our program, thanks to the CNCF, and for some of the ecosystem, many of the customers here in Europe doing things, when we talk to people involved, it is obvious that it is a global community and it definitely shows here at the event, so great job on that. >> It's something that the CNCF really cares about because it's not just about one country or small set of countries, this is actually a global movement. There are businesses all over the globe that are in the middle of this transformational moment, so it's just really exciting to see it. I mean, I think of myself as being pretty involved with the Cloud Native community, but as I'm walking around the sponsor booths here today, there's a good 40-50% that I'm just not familiar with and that's quite surprising to me. I would've thought I'd knew almost all the companies around here, but it's always really fun to see the new companies coming in. >> Okay, so let's talk for a second about the diversity inclusion. One of the things is bringing in people that might not have been able to come on their own. Can you talk a little bit about that effort? And you've got some connection with that yourself. >> Yeah, yeah, so I care a lot about diversity in tech, and women in tech more specifically. One of the things that, I feel like this community has a lot of very visible women, so when I actually looked at the number of contributors by men and women, I was really shocked to find out it was 3%. It's kind of disappointing when you think about it. >> And what you're saying is it's 3% of all the contributors to all the projects in the CNCF. >> Exactly. If you look at the 36 projects, you look at the number of the people who've made issues, commits, comments, pull requests, it's 3% women and I think the CNCF has put a lot of effort into the, for example, the diversity scholarships, so bringing more than 300 people from under-represented groups to KubeCon, including 56 here in Barcelona, and it has a personal meaning to me because I really got my start through that diversity scholarship to KubeCon Berlin two years ago and when I first came to KubeCon Berlin, I knew nobody. But just that little first step can go a long way into getting people into feeling like they're part of the community and they have something valuable to give back. And then, once you're in, you're hooked on it and yeah, then it's a lot of fun. >> It's been said fairly frequently that talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. As you take a look at the diversity inclusion efforts that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation is embarking on, how do you, what do you start evolving to next, and I ask that as two specific questions: One is do you have a target for next time, other than just larger than 3%? And, secondly, are you looking to actively expand the diversity scholarship program? And if so, how? >> Yeah, the diversity scholarship and the other initiatives around this are long-term initiatives. They're not going to pay off in the next three months; they're going to pay off in two year's time, three year's time. At least that's the hope, that's the goal. So we're always reliant on a lot of our sponsors. I mean, it's kind of a nice time at the moment because there's a lot of effort and willingness to be supportive of diversity in tech, and that means that we can offer more diversity scholarships to more people. But, I sometimes wonder, like I hope that this is not a, I hope that this is not a one-off thing will happen for five years and then people will lose interest. So, I think there are other things that need to happen. And one of the interesting things that I looked at recently is a GitHub survey, this was done in 2017, where they asked men and women how, the last time that you got help in open source, what was the source of that help? And women were, so women were just as likely to say they were interested in contributing, but they were half as likely to say that they had asked on a public forum, like a mailing list, and half as likely to say that they had received unsolicited help. So, I don't think it's something you can just say, right we'll look at individuals and make them do more, this is a community effort. We're all part of the same group of people, that we're trying to do the same, trying to work on the same things, and to do that, we need to get this mindset amongst the community that we need to reach out to more individuals and help them and pull them in, rather than saying well it's up to the CNCF to sort it out. >> Right, so Cheryl, another piece of the ecosystem that you're involved with is the end user piece. We've saw some of the interviews on the stage, as I've mentioned we've had some on the program, talk about the importance and the progress of end user participation in the CNCF. >> Yeah, so the CNCF was set up with these three bodies: the governing board, the technical oversight committee, and the end user community. And in theory, these three should be co-equal in power. At the moment, the end user community is probably lagging behind a little bit, but it's the reason that I joined the CNCF, the reason that my world exists, is to understand what the end users need and get them active and engaged in the community. So, my hope for the end user community is that end users who come in can see, not only the value of using these projects, but there's a path for them into becoming strong technical leaders and having actual influence in the projects beyond users, and then eventually, maybe contributing themselves and becoming leaders. >> Governance of open source projects has always been something of a challenge because it seems that in many respects, the most vocal people are often the ones who are afforded an unfortunate level of control, despite the fact that they may very well not speak for the common case. Instead they start adjudicating and advocating for corner cases. How, it seems that, at this point, based upon the sheer level of engagement you're seeing across enterprises and companies of all sizes, that that is clearly not the case. How do you, I guess, shape an ecosystem that has a healthy perspective on that? >> So, leadership in open source is very different from leadership in a typical corporate hierarchy. And leaders in open source are recognized, not only because of their technical depth and their hands-on contribution, but for their ability to communicate to others and have the empathy and understand what other people need. So, I think that's gone, the people who are seen as leaders in this community have, they've become role models for others and others kind of use that, to earn the actual trust of the community, you have to be very clearly making the right decisions and not doing it because you have an agenda in mind or because your employer wants you to do certain things. So I think that's gone a long way too, making sure that the ecosystem is really healthy and people really feel good about what they're doing. >> Cheryl, last thing is, could you give us for, how are we helping end users get an on-ramp into this community? If you could just give us, kind of, a real quick, what's the CNCF doing, what are some of those on-ramps for those that aren't already on the vote? >> The three big challenges for end users right now are number one, how do I navigate the ecosystem? Number two, how do I hire engineers? And number three, how do I make sure that my business strategy is aligned with Cloud Native? So, navigating the ecosystem is probably the trickiest one because there's so many channels, so many projects, there's no central authority that you can go to and say, I've got this problem, am I doing the right thing? Can you help me get this project, this feature into this project's road map? So, the CNCF has a lot of programs to ensure that end users can meet their peers and especially companies who are, perhaps, 12 months ahead of them, and everybody's trying to go through the same journey right now, everyone has these common challenges. So if they can figure them out together and solve them together, then it just saves a lot of time and effort for everybody. On the hiring piece, the CNCF does a lot around marketing and PR and brand awareness and there's companies here who have a booth, who are not selling their products at all, they're just here because they want to be in front of the engineers who are most involved with open source and Kubernetes, and so the CNCF facilitates that, and to some extent, subsidizes these end users to be at KubeCon. And then the third challenge is aligning your business strategy with Cloud Native. So, end users want to know these projects have longevity. They're going to be here in five year's or 10 year's time, and so for companies that want to get involved into that next level, for example running on that technical oversight committee or being on the governing board, the CNCF can help end users become, have that level of impact and have that level of engagement within the community. >> Alright so Cheryl, last word, any advice for people? What's the hottest job out there, that people are looking for? >> I've previously managed DevOps engineering teams and finding people with real Kubernetes production experience right now is just really hard. And I would say that the first thing that you should do, if you have no experience at all in it, is look at the training programs, for example the CKA, Certified Kubernetes Administrator. You don't have to get a certification, but if you look at the curriculum and go through it step by step, you can understand the basic concepts and after that point, get the production experience. There's no substitute to a year or two years of really running applications and monitoring and scaling them in production and dealing with fires. So, once you get to that point, it's a great place to be. >> Alright, well you heard it here. Cheryl, thanks so much for sharing everything with the ecosystem diversity inclusion. Really appreciate the updates. >> Thank you, really good to speak to you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Coming back with, getting towards the end of two days of live coverage here. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Seattle. It's theCUBE's two, three days of coverage. We're on day two of KubeCon Cloud Native Conference. This is the rise of the Kubernetes, the Ecosystem behind, the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I'm John Furrier, Cube host with Stu Miniman this week analyzing everything. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, who's the director of the Ecosystem for the CNCF. Cheryl, great to have you back. We interviewed you in Copenhagen. Thanks for joining us again. >> Of course, I'm really happy to be back, really happy to see you again. >> So you got a new role. The last time we talked, you were working for, I think, storage-io-- >> StorageOS >> OS, StorageOS. Now you're full-time with the CNCF as the director of the ecosystem, which now is massively growing. What's going on? Tell us about your job and what you're working on. >> So the CNCF's overall mission is to support the development and the adoption of these open-source projects. And I really focus on the adoption side. So I really care about talking to end users and making sure that they can be successful and productive and happy as they transition to this new world of Cloud Native and Kubernetes and open-source infrastructure. So it's a massive change, you know, if you compare this to five or ten years ago, where we are now is so different, but it's really exciting to be apart of it. >> One of the interesting things I remember speaking with you about in Copenhagen, in Europe, at KubeCon there was, you have your background at Google. And so you're Cloud Native, the way you've been working at Google and then now out here. This whole world is moving that way. And the CNCF is end user driven and was really started by end user contributions and now they're all here. Now you have vendors coming in. So you have a dynamic ecosystem. You have contributors that are end users, vendors that are contributors, and now the consumption of Kubernetes and their related technology is growing. What's your take on it? What's the most important thing happening? What are you focused on, what's your focus? >> I think vendors do make a big contribution to the projects as well. I definitely want to recognize that vendors are part of our ecosystem as well. But I think it's really important that, you know, at the end of the day all of this good work is so end users can be successful with what they're doing. There's no point in building these projects if you don't take into account what the community needs out of it. So I've talked to a lot of companies now and there's three levels of engagement that I see about why they want to join this Cloud Native world. One is that they have some concrete technical problems that just need to be solved as soon as possible and they need to think about the best way to do it. The second is around building engineering organizations that can handle this new culture where you're not talking to a vendor who can give you six months of products roadmap in advance. You have to interact with open source communities directly. And in the third is technical executives who really want to put all of their business strategy behind Cloud Native and Kubernetes. And they're really fully invested in to making sure that this community succeeds because it ensures that they will succeed as well. >> And in the end users also we see a lot of recruiting here as well as contributing. This is a number one demand that we certainly see from the Kube's content side of the house here, is that there's demand and a thirst for educational content, for how-to's, the role of a cloud architect now is becoming a clear persona in enterprises. You got an IT impact, you got developer impact, you got open-source, kind of all coming together. Where is the action for the end user right now? If you look at the trends, obviously Kubernetes stability and naturalization is key. Is DOCB's hot? What are the kinds of things that are merging up for end users that you see a demand for feature wise and or just general trend? >> Lots of end users just actually want the CNCF to just tell them, do it this way, and the CNCF is not like that. We're very neutral, we want companies to choose the best things for themselves. So were not going to go out there and say this product over this product or this vendor over this vendor. What we do try to do is create a community where companies can talk to other companies who are trying to solve the same problems. Because that's what community is. Let's do this collaboratively, let's do it out in the open so we're not all trying to solve the same problems over and over and over again. But right now I see a lot of questions about how do you work in more mature, not more mature, but say the finance industry, or how do you work in heavily regulated environments where you have to do a lot of compliance. And also, how do you deal with this explosion of tooling, we all kind of agree that Kubernetes is the way to go, but now there's another 500 tools that you could evaluate out there. What's the best way to figure out the path through that for your company. >> Let the community guide that too, let that be the part of the process, the community really is the driver. >> Cheryl, I'm wondering how you bake that into the show itself as well as the community, are there vertical places that I've got a select channel, or I've got a community group that I can participate with. We know the whole way track is really bumping at a show like this. There's all of the project specific stuff, but how is it that I have that paradox of choice and there's so many different ways I can do it. I bet it would be tough for us to find two companies that have chosen all of the pieces and deploited in a similar enough way, so how do you sort through that? >> It's something that I'm thinking about a lot for the next KubeCon where I hope I see you in Barcelona. Or perhaps the San Diego one after that, it's hard to make sure that there is a place where end users actually come together and do that face to face interaction with each other. So the moment, especially KubeCon is now 8010-D's. It's insane, but now you have to have a more structured place where people can find each other. >> So you talk to a lot of customers that knew you moderate panels with customers. Where are they today? I've talked to some people that were like, "There's 8,000 people here?" And half of them are really new to Kubernetes and need some of just the one on one stuff. As opposed to last year, a lot of the users I talked to were like, "Oh I'm just pulling down the stuff and I'm building all my components and I'm contributing." So we have such a big spectrum. What are some of the big issues you're hearing from customers to help them move forward? >> So, Separate from, I'll come back to this in a second, even before I joined the CNCF, I ran the, and I still run, the Cloud Native London meetup group. Which gets about two to three hundred attendees each month. So obviously not the size of this, but a fairly healthy size for a community. And people will ask, I thought about, should we just focus on a particular segment, like the people who are just getting started, or the people who were actively contributing. And I actually think it's okay to have a place where you can have that mix of levels. And I think it's really important that the more experienced, or people who are further along in their journey have a chance to talk to people who are at the beginning, kind of mentor them through it. But at the same time, we want to do things. So I'll give you a little teaser for next year, we're planning to run smaller, local, more regional events for places that don't necessarily have the ability to come to these huge, giant conferences, and want to talk to each other in a single day, single track small, intimate place. >> More community events where people can participate, not feel remote. I mean, you guys what on the wait list, like 1500 people on the waiting list here. >> For this event? >> For this event, It's demand. >> There's tons of demand, like this is my secret thought, if in time we get to huge, huge sizes, I think we should get a cruise ship, put everyone on a cruise ship for three days, and just be like, "Let's go and sell together and be apart of that". >> We're seeing a lot of cruises on the cryptography site, ICO's, and bunch of the big coiners went, watching their prices go down. But you guys could literally fill a ship. >> Yes, seriously, the pace that KubeCon is growing, it's getting hard to find a place that can hold this many people. >> Community is super important to you guys and we know that, we've been watching it from the beginning. It's really, I don't want to say sacred, but it's really a key nurturing point. What's the vision for enabling the community? Obviously regional events would create sub network in the community, allow for some interaction face to face and contribution wise. What else are you guys doing on the community side that's interesting, that's important, that people should know about? >> So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and talking to a lot of companies and I really think there is no substitution for the face to face stuff, at least initially. There's a lot of online that you can get involved with now, through the mailing lists and Slack and GitHub and all these things. But I really think that if you don't know somebody who's already part of the community, it can be quite hard to know where to even begin. It can feel feel a bit overwhelming, just how to stay on top of it all. So I would really like to establish more places where people feel like they can talk to their peers and feel comfortable and not feel like they're being sold to from vendors or being-- >> genuine, authentic basically, a place where it's not going to be a sales pitch, they can dig in and learn. >> Yeah, exactly. I think It's really important to hold onto the technical quality, and the excellence of what the CNCF provides as well. Without that, everything else, I love this community stuff, it's fantastic, it's really good fun, but it comes down to the technical, this is actually sold for technical and business problem. >> Yeah, great social component, but you got to keep your eye on the prize, get the code out there. >> Yeah, I mean, it's not to say that code is the only thing that matters, but we want to make sure that, people come to, you know, how many people here today are spending three days of their lives with us because they get actual value out of what's happening here. And as long as people keep coming, that shows that there is value there. >> And then the success of the ecosystem, we want to look back and see, these were startups, these are ecosystem partners, big, small medium, and large, they've been successful. That success outcome is really key to what you're working on. Making that successful, it's hard. You guys are growing so fast, give it peek behind the curtain, but CNCF, you went from 4,000 people, I know the thing was just in China, which is exploding with growth, in China, open-source contribution and consumption, you got that exploding. You got the event, 8,000 people. Is the team busting out at the seams right now? I mean, share some inside baseball around, what's going on inside the CNCF, are you guys running hot? What's it like? >> It's crazy, right? Nobody could've predicted how fast this has all grown. And the team is, so the reason I joined the CNCF is because, number one, the growth is there, but number two, I really think the team have really good intentions. And even though there's a lot of work to be done, I think people really have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the right thing for the community. And China is definitely an area that we're investing in on a personal level. I'm taking Mandarin classes to try and improve my Mandarin so that we can, I can actually go to China and make sure that these companies are part of this as well. There are so many things in China that are really advanced and mature, but really sophisticated Kubernetes. But it's so separate from, I feel like it's very separate from the stuff that we see in North America. So China is definitely an area that I'm looking out for. But in terms of the team, I think that we want to do a lot, but at the same time, the CNCF is never going to be like, a thousand person organization, let's talk again in 50 years time and maybe it will be a huge organization. But at the moment, I don't believe the CNCF is going to be a huge organization. So we do rely very heavily on our volunteers, our community, the good will of partners, exactly. >> Well we really appreciate the support of CNCF. Dan has been fantastic to work with We've seen the vision from day one, we saw him in China at Alibaba event last year. We saw the work you guys are doing. You're doing the work and it shows. So congratulations and good luck on your new assignment and-- >> Thank you. Dan is my boss and he's always been incredibly optimistic and energetic and has so much belief in what we're doing. >> He's smart, he gets it-- >> He's very smart. >> He's agile, bring a little DevOps, agility, to the table, right? (chuckles) You know. >> Exactly, you know, he's great, and Chris as well is a super community minded and thinking. >> You guys got a great team. Congratulations and thanks for coming on and sharing your insight-- >> Thank you-- >> Into the CNCF ecosystem. The ecosystem, the open source communities, is the key persona, the key target, but this is impacting IT and developers. This is why Kubernetes is rising, you're seeing real impact with Cloud computing, Cloud scale, Cloud Native, it's a really interesting time and this is proof of the ecosystem. We're here in the Kube coverage here in Seattle. I'm John Furrier and stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018 brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNCF, I'm John Furrier the co-host of theCUBE with Lauren Cooney co-host this week founder of Spark Labs. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, Product Engineering Manager, StorageOS, she has a lot of DevOps, she runs the CloudNative or founder of the CloudNative meetup in London. >> Exactly. >> It's great to have you on. >> Thank you, it's great to be on. >> So, you've drank the koolaide on CloudNative, so we're loving the trend, the trend is your friend here. So CloudNative's super hot and you're doing StorageOS as the name of the company, which is a DevOps oriented that your obviously using Kubernetes. First question, how excited are you with the CloudNative trend right now, because people are getting it with Kubernetes, what's your reaction to the momentum? >> So before I joined my current company, I was an Engineer at Google for about five years and I'm probably a CloudNative in the true sense of the word and that I joined Google when I was 21, I don't remember a time before what we think of is containers and orchestrators and I use Borg, which was the internal predecessor to Kubernetes, so when I came out and I started looking into Docker and Kubernetes I thought, this is obvious, this is just how software is built and run, right? >> John: Yeah. >> It was so interesting to realize no, the industry's not there. >> What did you find? What was it like go out and say wait a minute, you do all that? What was it like? >> As I said I'd completely forgotten that this how software was done before, so when I came out, I was like this totally makes sense to me, this is very, very natural to me that you run software packaged in a container and then you orchestrate it across data centers and across machines with something like Kubernetes now. But seeing the whole industry move to this mindset has been really impressive, particularly for the CNCF they've put a lot of effort into spreading this paradigm and getting the adoption. >> John: They've done a good job. Before we dig in I want some DevOps questions I have for you because this is such an exciting topic. Take a minute to explain StorageOS, what the company does and your role there. >> StorageOS has been around for a couple of years, two, three years now and one of the biggest problems with containers is their designed to be stateless, they're designed so that you don't have to worry about running containers in different environments or moving them around, they should always run the same. So, but clearly there is a need for storage, if you're doing something interesting with your application, you have to make a decision about where to actually store the data at the end of the day. So, StorageOS, we do persistent storage for containers and it's an abstraction layer for storage that runs on top of any infrastructure could be on prem, could be one of the cloud providers, could be virtual machines and we provide storage to pods and to the applications and so the containers that are running and we also manage replication and high availability, among other things. My role that is officially Product Manager, I do a ton of different things, because we're a 15 person start-up. So I actually manage DevOps Engineers, I do public speaking, I write and speak about storage and containers and cloud, I write all the technical documentation for the product and very excitingly as of yesterday in fact, we announced our GA product, so now I can finally say we have a real genuine product that's out there and we think it's ready to go out publicly and live. >> That's great. >> Very, very exciting. >> So, you're not busy at all is what you basically are saying. >> I do a million things, but I have a great time. >> That's awesome. So what is with your one data release and the product is actually out the door, what kind of applications are you supporting, for example? What do you see as the kind of use cases of folks that are coming in and using, your solution? >> The biggest one that is not yet a solved problem is the database use case. So transactional database is like MySQL and Postgres and so on. The other use case that I see a lot is with CICD Pipelines, so people running Jenkins to build their software and they need to store the artifacts off the software somewhere and it's quite difficult to do that at the moment. So those I think are our two priorities. >> That's great. >> In DevOps world right now, one of the things that's super exciting is the whole infrastructorous code thing is happening, you mentioned that this is people are getting it. The challenge of staffing up is hard, you guys are wearing a lot of different hats as startups do, but as companies start to grow and do more CloudNative true CloudNative, you got to hire people and people got to learn. What are you finding is a good mechanism for learning? Obviously, you do a meet-up, that's a great face to face group opportunity, what are some of the things that people can do to get involved, how are you guys recruiting, how do you manage the team, is it small teams, whats the workflow look like? If you can share some insight into that, that'd be very helpful. >> Yeah so, I'm the hiring manager for DevOps Engineers and when I started looking for this I thought what would be great is if I could find someone who has some experience with running Kubernetes in production. Clearly that's very difficult because Kubernetes has only been around for really a year or two and widely adopted. Meet-ups are a brilliant way for people to get into this space, find out what the community is talking about and then also to learn and to teach others and I really encourage people to go and do public speaking themselves and become known in the community for it. Aside from that I think DevOps is a very worldly defined term, which is one of the difficulties with finding people. DevOps encompasses everything from people who are traditionally Linux's Admins to people who really do understand the container mindset and the orchestrated mindset. So I think for me, my best channel to find the right people has always been either face to face, people I know or else looking for things like Kubernetes or other orchestrators. >> So let me ask you how the Kubernetes, we've been given some good hat tips and props to the CNCF for doing a good job with Kubernetes, what is it about Kubernetes and the CNCF that's working in your mind? Why is it working so well? Obviously it's successful, its got the kind of defacto standard because a lot of people love it, what are they doing right and what is the work areas that you see are opportunities for people to innovate? >> So the CNCF has a couple of different branches, one thing that I think they did really well at the beginning was they decided that the technical direction and the vision of the projects would be set amongst the community rather than being controlled by one of Google or Microsoft or Red Hat or one of the big, big names in this. So separating the governing board from the technical oversight committee is something I think they did really right at the beginning and also encouraging the meet-ups and the face to face and the community growth. So in terms of innovation in this sphere, there's a lot of unsolved problems, we have a absolute massive tools out there and we don't have best practices and a lot of experience in how it's done. I work for StorageOS, because storage is one of those unsolved problems for containers, security is another one, Servilous is really coming and there's a lot of opportunity now to get involved in those conversations and steer towards where you want your own community and your own people to be. >> That, that is great and your doing, I've been in Open-source for quite awhile and the strategy is spot on. So, what do you see in terms of inside of the CNCF, projects that you're excited about or things that you want to get engaged with further or just in general, what's really cool? >> On a personal, technical level I think Servilous is very, very exciting, I still think of myself as an Engineer in many ways so I think the developer experience with that is great. One thing that I've seen new a KubeCon is there's a lot of focus now on getting the new first-time contributors, the mentors expanding the community looking beyond just can you submit code to how do we onboard and bring in more people so we have a more diverse set of opinions and feelings that can come in. >> Training, setting people up, open arms. >> Yeah, yeah, these things don't happen by themselves, they do take effort and I'm really glad that Open-source is really, really flown itself full heartedly into those kind of efforts. >> Cheryl great to have you on theCUBE, appreciate your commentary, my final question for you is for the folks watching who couldn't come today, this week, what's going on here? Share the vibe, share the story, what's this top story, what's the most important thing happening this week that people should know about? >> If I see one trend in people that I talk to, it's Kubernetes is getting is getting boring (laughing). What's the next big thing, service measures seem to be a hot topic, a lot of people are talking about them. But it's quite, I think it's great actually that Kubernetes is now becoming boring, people are standardizing on one thing so we're not duplicating a bunch of effort and there's a lot of buzz in the hallway about okay, we're fully bought into, bought into Kubernetes now we know this is success the CNCF has graduated Kubernetes. So now what are the difficult problems? Now it's about communicating between on the the networking side between federating between clusters across different regions. Those are all things that are not yet solved problems and that makes them quite an interesting challenge. >> You need boring to get to the exciting stuff, because in this case is good. >> Boring really is good. >> You're rallying around something solid to go attack other opportunities. >> I think it's just a trend of we have innovation at the very cutting edge beginning, people rally around and they become standers then they become commodities and people no longer find those exciting, but that allows us to work on even more exciting new things. >> Cheryl great stuff, congratulations on your meet-up and your success and your start-up shipping the products. This is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Copenhagen, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney here Cube coverage continues, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2021 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE'S coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, always great to talk to the KubeCon co-chairs and we have Stephen Augustus Head of Open Source at Cisco and also the KubeCon co-chair great to have you back. And Jasmine James Manager and Engineering Effectives at Twitter, the KubeCon co-chair, she's new on the job so we're not going to grill her too hard but she's excited to share her perspective, Jasmine, Stephen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So obviously the co-chairs you guys see everything upfront Jasmine, you're going to learn that this is a really kind of key fun position because you've got to multiple hats you got to wear, you got to put a great program together, you got to entertain and surprise and delight the attendees and also can get the right trends, pick everything right and then keep that harmonious vibe going at CNCF and KubeCon is hard so it's a hard job. So I got to ask you out of the gate, what are the top trends that you guys have selected and are pushing forward this year that we're seeing evolve and unfold here at KubeCon? >> For sure yeah. So I'm excited to see, and I would say that some of the top trends for Cloud Native right now are just changes in the ecosystem, how we think about different use cases for Cloud Native technology. So you'll see lot's of talk about new architectures being introduced into Cloud Native technologies or things like WebAssembly. WebAssembly Wasm used cases and really starting to and again, I think I mentioned this every time, but like what are the customer used cases actually really thinking about how all of these building blocks connect and create a cohesive story. So I think a lot of it is enduring and will always be a part. My favorite thing to see is pretty much always maintainer and user stories, but yeah, but architecture is Wasm and security. Security is a huge focus and it's nice to see it comes to the forefront as we talked about having these like the security day, as well as all of the talk arounds, supply chain security, it has been a really, really, really big event (laughs) I'll say. >> Yeah. Well, great shot from last year we have been we're virtual again, but we're back in, the real world is coming back in the fall, so we hopefully in North America we'll be in person. Jasmine, you're new to the job. Tell us a little about you introduce yourself to the community and tell more about who you are and why you're so excited to be the co-chair with Stephen. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jasmine James, I've been in the industry for the past five or six years previous at Delta Airlines, now at Twitter, as a part of my job at Delta we did a huge drive on adopting Kubernetes. So a lot of those experiences, I was very, very blessed to be a part of in making the adoption and really the cultural shift, easy for developers during my time there. I'm really excited to experience like Cloud Native from the co-chair perspective because historically I've been like on the consumer side going to talk, taking all those best practices, stealing everything I could into bring it back into my job. So make everyone's life easier. So it's really, really great to see all of the fantastic ideas that are being presented, all of the growth and maturity within the Cloud Native world. Similar to Stephen, I'm super excited to hear about the security stuff, especially as it relates to making it easy for developers to shift left on security versus it being such an afterthought and making it something that you don't really have to think about. Developer experience is huge for me which is why I took the job at Twitter six months ago, so I'm really excited to see what I can learn from the other co-chairs and to bring it back to my day-to-day. >> Yeah, Twitter's been very active in open source. Everyone knows that and it's a great chance to see you land there. One of the interesting trends is this year I'll see besides security is GitOps but the one that I think is relevant to your background so fresh is the end user contributions and involvement has been really exploding on the scene. It's always been there. We've covered, Envoy with Lyft but now enterprise is now mainstream enterprises have been kind of going to the open source well and bringing those goodies back to their camps and building out and bringing it back. So you starting to see that flywheel developing you've been on that side now here. Talk about that dynamic and how real that is an important and share some perspective of what's really going on around this explosion around more end user contribution, more end user involvement. >> Absolutely. So I really think that a lot of industry like players are starting to see the importance of contributing back to open source because historically we've done a lot of taking, utilizing these different components to drive the business logic and not really making an investment in the product itself. So it's really, really great to see large companies invest in open source, even have whole teams dedicated to open source and how it's consumed internally. So I really think it's going to be a big win for the companies and for the open source community because I really am a big believer in like giving back and making sure that you should give back as much as you're taking and by making it easy for companies to do the right thing and then even highlighting it as a part of CNCF, it'll be really, really great, just a drive for a great environment for everyone. So really excited to see that. >> That's really good. She has been awesome stuff. Great, great insight. Stephen, I just have you piggyback off that and comment on companies enterprises that want to get more involved with the Cloud Native community from their respective experiences, what's the playbook, is there a new on-ramps? Is there new things? Is there a best practice? What's your view? I mean, obviously everyone's growing and changing. You look at IT has changed. I mean, IT is evolving completely to CloudOps, SRE get ops day two operations. It's pretty much standard now but they need to learn and change. What's your take on this? >> Yeah, so I think that to Jasmine's point and I'm not sure how much we've discussed my background in the past, but I actually came from the corporate IT background, did Desktop Sr, Desktop helped us support all of that stuff up into operations, DevOps, SRE, production engineering. I was an SRE at a startup who used core West technologies and started using Kubernetes back when Kubernetes is that one, two, I think. And that was my first journey into Cloud Native. And I became core less is like only customer to employee convert, right? So I'm very much big on that end user story and figuring out how to get people involved because that was my story as well. So I think that, some of the work that we do or a lot of the work that we do in contributor strategy, the SIG CNCF St. Contributor Strategy is all around thinking through how to bring on new contributors to these various Cloud Native projects, Right? So we've had chats with container D and linker D and a bunch of other folks across the ecosystem, as well as the kind of that maintainer circle sessions that we hold which are kind of like a private, not recorded. So maintainers can kind of get raw and talk about what they're feeling, whether it be around bolstering contributions or whether it'd be like managing burnout, right? Or thinking about how you talk through the values and the principles for your projects. So I think that, part of that story is building for multiple use cases, right? You take Kubernetes for example, right? So Ameritas chair for sync PM over in Kubernetes, one of the sub project owners for the enhancements sub project which involves basically like figuring out how we intake new enhancements to the community but as well as like what the end user cases are all of the use cases for that, right? How do we make it easy to use the technology and how we make it more effective for people to have conversations about how they use technology, right? So I think it's kind of a continuing story and it's delightful to see all of the people getting involved in a SIG Contributor Strategy, because it means that they care about all of the folks that are coming into their projects and making it a more welcoming and easier to contribute place so. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. And one of the things you mentioned about IT in your background and the scale change from IT and just the operational change over is interesting. I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about, get Op and, SRAs and how, in colleges is that an engineering track or is it computer science and it's kind of a hybrid, right? So you're seeing essentially this new operational model at scale that's CloudOps. So you've got hybrid, you've got on-premise, you've got Cloud Native and now soon to be multi-cloud so new things come into play architecture, coding, and programmability. All these things are like projects now in CNCF. And that's a lot of vendors and contributors but as a company, the IT functions is changing fast. So that's going to require more training and more involvement and yet open source is filling the void if you look at some of the successes out there, it's interesting. Can you comment on the companies that are out there saying, "Hey, I know my IT department is going to be turning into essentially SRE operations or CloudOps at scale. How do they get there? How could they work with KubeCon and what's the key playbook? How would you answer that? >> Yeah, so I would say, first off the place to go is the one-on-one track. We specifically craft that one-on-one track to make sure that people who are new to Cloud Native get a very cohesive story around what they're trying to get into, right? At any one time. So head to the one-on-one track, please add to the one-on-one track, hang out, definitely check out all of the keynotes that again, the keynotes, we put a lot of work into making sure these keynotes tell a very nice story about all of the technology and the amount of work that our presenters put into it as well is phenomenal. It's top notch. It's top notch every time. So those will always be my suggestions. Actually go to the keynotes and definitely check out the one-on-one track. >> Awesome. Jasmine, I got to get your take on this now that you're on the KubeCon and you're co-chairing with Stephen, what's your story to the folks that are in the end user side out there that were in your old position that you were at Delta doing some great Kubernetes work but now it's going beyond Kubernetes. I was just talking with another participant in the KubeCon ecosystem is saying, "It's not just Kubernetes anymore. There's other systems that we're going to deploy our real-time metrics on and whatnot". So what's the story? What's the update? What do you see on the inside now now that you're on board and you're at a Hyperscale at Twitter, what's your advice? What's your commentary to your old friends and the end user world? >> Yeah. It's not an easy task. I think that was, you had mentioned about starting with the one-on-one is like super key. Like that's where you should start. There's so many great stories out there in previous KubeCon that have been told. I was listening to those stories and the great thing about our community is that it's authentic, right? We're telling like all of the ways we tripped up so we can prevent you from doing this same thing and having an easier path, which is really awesome. Another thing I would say is do not underestimate the cultural shift, right? There are so many tools and technologies out there, but there's also a cultural transformation that has to happen. You're shifting from, traditional IT roles to a really holistic like so many different things are changing about the way infrastructure was interacted with the way developers are developing. So don't underestimate the cultural shift and make sure you're bringing everyone to the party because there's a lot of perspectives from the development side that needs to be considered before you make the shift initially So that way you can make sure you're approaching the problem in the right way. So those would be my recommendation. >> Also, speaking of cultural shifts, Stephen I know this is a big passion of yours is diversity in the ecosystem. I think with COVID we've seen probably in the past two years a major cultural shifts on the personnel involved, the people participating, still a lot more work to get done. Where are we on diversity in the ecosystem? How would you rate the progress and the overall achievements? >> I would say doing better, but never stop what has happened in COVID I think, if you look across companies, if you look across the opportunities that have opened up for people in general, there have been plenty of doors that have shut, right? And doors that have really made the assumption that you need to be physical are in person to do good work. And I think that the Cloud Native ecosystem the work that the LF and CNCF do, and really the way that we interact in projects has kind of pushed towards this async first, this remote first work culture, right? So you see it in these large corporations that have had to change the travel policies because of COVID and really for someone who's coming off being like a field engineer and solutions architect, right? The bread and butter is hopping on and off a plane, shaking hands, going to dinner, doing the song and dance, right? With customers. And for that model to functionally shift, right? Having conversations in different ways, right? And yeah, sometimes it's a lot of Zoom calls, right? Zoom calls, webinars, all of these things but I think some of what has happened is, you take the release team, for example, the Kubernetes release team. This is our first cycle with Dave Vellante who's our 121 released team lead is based in India, right? And that's the first time that we've had APAC region release team lead and what that forced us to do, we were already working on it. But what that forced us to do is really focused on asynchronous communication. How can we get things done without having to have people in the room? And we were like, "With Dave Vellante in here, it either works or it doesn't like, we're either going to prove that what we've put in place works for asynchronous communication or it doesn't." And then, given that a project of this scale can operate just fine, right? Right just fine delivering a release with people all across the globe. It proves that we have a lot of flexibility in the way that we offer opportunities, both on the open source side, as well as on the company side. >> Yeah. And I got to say KubeCon has always been global from day one. I was in Shanghai and I was in hung, Jo, visiting Ali Baba. And who do I see in the lobby? The CNCF crew. And I'm like, "What are you guys doing here?" "Oh, we're here talking to the cloud with Alibaba." So global is huge. You guys have nailed that. So congratulations and keep that going. Jasmine, your perspective is women in tech. I mean, you're seeing more and more focus and some great doors opening. It's still not enough. We've been covering this for a long time. Still the numbers are down, but we had a great conference recently at Stanford Women in Data Science amazing conference, a lot of power players coming in, women in tech is evolving. What's your take on this still a lot more work to done. You're an inspiration. Share your story. >> Yeah. We have a long way to go. There's no question about it. I do think that there's a lot of great organizations CNCF being one of them, really doing a great job at sharing, networking opportunities, encouraging other women to contribute to open source and letting that be sort of the gateway into a tech career. My journey is starting as a systems engineer at Delta, working my way into leadership, somehow I'm not sure I ended up there but really sort of shifting and being able to lift other women up has been like so fortunate to be able to do that. Women who code being a mentor, things of that nature has been a great opportunity, but I do feel like the open source community has a long way go to be a more welcoming place for women contributors, things like code of conduct, that being very prevalent making sure that it's not daunting and scary, going into GitHub and starting to create a PR for out of fear of what someone might say about your contributions instead of it being sort of an educational experience. So I think there's a lot of opportunities but there's a lot of programs, networking opportunities out there, especially everyone being remote now that have presented themselves. So I'm very hopeful. And the CNCF, like I said is doing a great job at highlighting these women contributors that are making changes to CNCF projects in really making it something that is celebrated which is really great. >> Yeah. You know that I love Stephen and we thought this last time and the Clubhouse app has come online since we were last talking and it's all audio. So there's a lot of ideas and it's all open. So with a synchronous first you have more access but still context matters. So the language, so there's still more opportunities potentially to offend or get it right so this is now becoming a new cultural shift. You brought this up last time we chatted around the language, language is important. So I think this is something that we're keeping an eye on and trying to keep open dialogue around, "Hey it matters what you say, asynchronously or in texts." We all know that text moment where someone said, "I didn't really mean that." But it was offensive or- >> It's like you said it. (laughs) >> (murmurs) you passionate about this here. This is super important how we work. >> Yeah. So you mentioned Clubhouse and it's something that I don't like. (laughs) So no offense to anyone who is behind creating new technologies for sure. But I think that Clubhouse from, if you take platforms like that, let's generalize, you take platforms like that and you think about the unintentional exclusion that those platforms involve, right? If you think about folks with disabilities who are not necessarily able to hear a conversation, right? Or you don't provide opportunities to like caption your conversations, right? That either intentionally or unintentionally excludes a group of folks, right? So I've seen Cloud Native, I've seen Cloud Native things happen on a Clubhouse, on a Twitter Spaces. I won't personally be involved in them until I know that it's a platform that is not exclusive. So I think that it's great that we're having new opportunities to engage with folks that are not necessarily, you've got people prefer the Slack and discord vibe, you've got people who prefer the text over phone calls, so to speak thing, right? You've got people who prefer phone calls. So maybe like, maybe Clubhouse, Twitter Spaces, insert new, I guess Disco is doing a thing too- >> They call it stages. Disco has stages, which is- >> Stages. They have stages. Okay. All right. So insert, Clubhouse clone here and- >> Kube House. We've got a Kube House come on in. >> Kube House. Kube House. >> Trivial (murmurs). >> So we've got great ways to engage there for people who prefer that type of engagement and something that is explicitly different from the I'm on a Zoom call all day kind of vibe enjoy yourselves, try to make it as engaging as possible, just realize what you may unintentionally be doing by creating a community that not everyone can be a part of. >> Yeah. Technical consequences. I mean, this is key language matters to how you get involved and how you support it. I mean, the accessibility piece, I never thought about that. If you can't listen, I mean, you can't there's no content there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the Cloud Native community, right? Thinking through accessibility, internationalization, localization, to make sure that our contributions are actually accessible, right? To folks who want to get involved and not just prioritizing, let's say the U.S. or our English speaking part of the world so. >> Awesome. Jasmine, what's your take? What can we do better in the world to make the diversity and inclusion not a conversation because when it's not a conversation, then it's solved. I mean, ultimately it's got a lot more work to do but you can't be exclusive. You got to be diverse more and more output happens. What's your take on this? >> Yeah. I feel like they'll always be work to do in this space because there's so many groups of people, right? That we have to take an account for. I think that thinking through inclusion in the onset of whatever you're doing is the best way to get ahead of it. There's so many different components of it and you want to make sure that you're making a space for everyone. I also think that making sure that you have a pipeline of a network of people that represent a good subset of the world is going to be very key for shaping any program or any sort of project that anyone does in the future. But I do think it's something that we have to consistently keep at the forefront of our mind always consider. It's great that it's in so many conversations right now. It really makes me happy especially being a mom with an eight year old girl who's into computer science as well. That there'll be better opportunities and hopefully more prevalent opportunities and representation for her by the time she grows up. So really, really great. >> Get her coding early, as I always say. Jasmine great to have you and Stephen as well. Good to see you. Final question. What do you hope people walk away with this year from KubeCon? What's the final kind of objective? Jasmine, we'll start with you. >> Wow. Final objective. I think that I would want people to walk away with a sense of community. I feel like the KubeCon CNCF world is a great place to get knowledge, but also an established sense of community not stopping at just the conference and taking part of the community, giving back, contributing would be a great thing for people to walk away with. >> Awesome. Stephen? >> I'm all about community as well. So I think that one of the fun things that we've been doing, is just engaging in different ways than we have normally across the kind of the KubeCon boundaries, right? So you take CNCF Twitch, you take some of the things that I can't mention yet, but are coming out you should see around and pose KubeCon week, the way that we're engaging with people is changing and it's needed to change because of how the world is right now. So I hope that to reinforce the community point, my favorite part of any conference is the hallway track. And I think I've mentioned this last time and we're trying our best. We're trying our best to create it. We've had lots of great feedback about, whether it be people playing among us on CNCF Twitch or hanging out on Slack silly early hours, just chatting it up. And are kind of like crafted hallway track. So I think that engage, don't be afraid to say hello. I know that it's new and scary sometimes and trust me, we've literally all been here. It's going to be okay, come in, have some fun, we're all pretty friendly. We're all pretty friendly and we know and understand that the only way to make this community survive and thrive is to bring on new contributors, is to get new perspectives and continue building awesome technology. So don't be afraid. >> I love it. You guys have a global diverse and knowledgeable and open community. Congratulations. Jasmine James, Stephen Augustus, co-chairs for KubeCon here on theCUBE breaking it down, I'm John Furrier for your host, thanks for watching. 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>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop Con and Cloud, Native Con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to You by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem Partners. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of Cube con Cloud Native Con Europe event, which, of course, this year has gone virtual, really lets us be able to talk to those guests where they are around the globe. Really happy to welcome back to the program. Liz Rice. First of all, she is the vice president of Open Source Engineering at Aqua Security. She's also the chair of the Technical Oversight Committee has part of Ah CN cf. Liz, it is great to see you. Unfortunately, it's remote, but ah, great to catch up with you. Thanks for joining. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me. Nice to see you if you know across the ocean. >>So, uh, you know, one of the one of the big things? Of course, for the Cube Con show. It's the rallying point for the community. There are so many people participating. One of the things we always love to highlight its not only the the vendor ecosystem. But there is a very robust, engaged community of end users that participate in it. And as I mentioned, you're the chair of that technology oversight committee. So maybe just give our audience a little bit of, you know, in case they're not familiar with the TOC does. And let's talk about the latest pieces there. >>Yes, say the TOC is really hit. C can qualify the different projects that want to join the CNC F. So we're assessing whether or not they're cloud native. We're assessing whether they could joined at sandbox or incubation or graduation levels. Which of the different maturity levels that we have for for project within the CN CF yeah, we're really there, Teoh also provide it steering around the What does cloud native mean and what does it mean to be a project inside the CN CF community? We're also a voice for all of the projects. We're not the only voice, but, you know, part >>of our role >>really is to make sure the projects are getting what they need in order to be successful. So it's it's really around the technology and the projects that we call cloud native >>Yeah, and and obliges Cloud Native because when people first heard of the show, of course, Kubernetes and Cube Con was the big discussion point. But as you said, Cloud native, there's a lot of projects there. I just glanced at the sandbox page and I think there's over 30 in the sandbox category on and you know they move along their process until they're, you know, fully mature and reach that, you know, 1.0 state, which is the stamp of approval that, you know, this could be used in production. I understand there's been some updates for the sandbox process, so help us understand you know where that is and what's the new piece of that? >>Yeah. So it's really been because of the growth off cloud native in general, the popularity off the CN CF and so much innovation happening in our space. So there's been so many projects who want Teoh become hard off the CNC f family on and we used to have a sponsorship model where members of the TOC would essentially back projects that they wanted to see joining at the sandbox level. But we ran into a number of issues with that process on and also dealing with the scale, the number of applications that have come in. So we've revamped the process. We made it much easier for projects to apply as much simpler form where really not making so much judgment we're really saying is it's a cloud native project and we have some requirements in terms off some governance features that we need from a project. And it's worth mentioning that when a project joins the CN CF, they are donating the intellectual property and the trademark off that project into the foundation. So it's not something that people should take lightly. But we have tried to make it easier and therefore much smoother. We're able Teoh assess the applications much more quickly, which I think everyone, the community, the projects, those of us on the TOC We're all pretty happy that we can make that a much faster process. >>Yeah, I actually, it brings up An interesting point is so you know, I've got a little bit of background in standards committees. A swell as I've been involved in open source for a couple of decades now some people don't understand. You know, when you talk about bringing a project under a foundation. You talked about things like trademarks and the like. There are more than one foundation out there for CN CF Falls under the Linux Foundation. Google, of course, brought Kubernetes in fully to be supported. There's been some rumblings I've heard for the last couple of years about SDO and K Native and I know about a month before the show there was some changes along SDO and what Google was doing there may be without trying to pass too many judgments in getting into some of the political arguments, help us understand. You know what Google did and you know where that kind of comparison the projects that sit in the CN cf themselves. >>Yeah, So I e I guess two years ago around two years ago, Stu was very much the new kid in the cloud native block. So much excitement about the project. And it was actually when I was a program co chair that we had a lot of talks about sdo at Cube Con cloud native bomb, particularly in Copenhagen, I'm recalling. And, uh, I think everyone I just saw a natural fit between that project on the CN, CF and There was an assumption from a lot of people across the community that it would eventually become part of the CNC f. That was it's natural home. And one of the things that we saw in recent weeks was a very clear statement from IBM, who were one off the Uh huh, yeah, big contributing companies towards that project that that was also their expectation. They were very much under the impression that Stu would be donated to the CN CF at an appropriate point of maturity, and unfortunately, that didn't happen. From my point of view, I think that has sown a lot of confusion amongst the community because we've seen so much. It's very much a project of fits. Service mesh designed to work with kubernetes is it really does. You're fit naturally in with the other CN CF projects. So it's created confusion for end users who, many of whom assume that it was called the CN CF, and that it has the neutral governance that the other projects. It's part of the requirements that we have on those projects. They have to have an open governance that they're not controlled by a single vendor, Uh, and we've seen that you know that confusion, Andi. Frustration around that confusion being expressed by more and more end users as well as other people across the community. And yeah, the door is still open, you know, we would still love to see SDO join the community. Clearly there are different opinions within the SD wan maintainers. I will have to see what happens. >>Yeah, lets you bring up some really good points. You know, absolutely some of some of that confusion out there. Absolutely. I've heard from customers that if they're making a decision point, they might say, Hey, maybe I'm not going to go down that maybe choose something else because I'm concerned about that. Um, you know, I sdo front and center k native, another project currently under Google that has, you know, a number of other big vendors in the community that aiding in that So hopefully we will see some progress on that, you know, going forward. But, you know, back to you talked about, You know, the TOC doesn't make judgements as to you know which project and how they are. One of the really nice things out there in the CN CF, it's like the landscape just for you to help, understand? Okay, here's all of these projects. Here's the different categories they fit in. Here is where they are along that maturity. There's another tool that I read. Cheryl Hung blogged about the technology radar. I believe for continuous delivery is the first technology radar. Help us understand how that is, you know, not telling customers what to do but giving them a little guidance that you know where some of these projects projects fit. In a certain segment, >>Yeah, the technology radar is a really great initiative. I'm really excited about it because we have increasing numbers or end users who are using these different projects it both inside the CN CF and projects that are outside of the CNC F family. Your end users are building stacks. They're solving real problems in the real world and with the technology radar. What Cheryl's been able to facilitate is having the end you to the end user community share with us. What tools? They're actually using what they actually believe are the right hammers for specific nails. And, you know, it's it's one thing for us as it's more on the developer or vendor side Teoh look at different projects and say what we think are the better solutions for solving different problems. Actually hearing from the horse's mouth from the end users who are doing it in the real world is super valuable. And I think that is a really useful input to help us understand. What are the problems that the end user is still a challenge by what are the gaps that we still need to fail more input we can get from the end user community, the more will be solving real problems and no necessarily academic problems that we haven't sorry discovered in >>the real world. Alright, well is, you know, teeing up a discussion about challenges that users still have in the world. If we go to your primary jobs, Main hat is you live in the security world and you know, we know security is still something, you know, front and center. It is something that has never done lots of discussion about the shared responsibility model and how cloud native in security fit together and all that. So maybe I know there's some new projects there, but love to just give me a snap shot as where we are in the security space. As I said, Overall, it's been, you know, super important topic for years. This year, with a global pandemic going on, security seems to be raised even more. We've seen a couple of acquisitions in the space, of course. Aqua Security helping customers along their security journey. So what do you seeing out there in the marketplace today and hear from your custom? >>Yeah, I Every business this year has, you know, look at what's going on and you know, it's been crazy time for everyone, but we've been pleasantly surprised at how, you know, in relative terms, our business has been able to. It's been strong, you know. And I think you know what you're touching on the fact that people are working remotely. People are doing so many things online. Security is evermore online. Cloud security's evermore part off what people need to pay attention to. We're doing more and more business online. So, actually, for those of us in the security business, it has bean, you know that there have been some silver linings to this this pandemic cloud? Um, yes. So many times in technology. The open source projects and in particularly defaults in kubernetes. Things are improving its long Bina thing that I've you know, I wished for and talked about that. You know, some of the default settings has always been the most secure they could be. We've seen a lot of improvements over the last 23 years we're seeing continuing to see innovation in the open source world as well as you know, on the commercial side and products that vendors like Akwa, you know, we continue to innovate, continue to write you ways for customers to validate that the application workloads that they're going to run are going to run securely in the cloud. >>Alright and lives. There's a new project that I know. Ah, you know, you Aqua are participating in Tell us a little bit about Starbird. You know what's what's the problem? It's helping solve and you know where that budget >>Yes, So stockholders, one of our open source initiatives coming out of my team are equal on, and the idea is to take security reporting information and turn it into a kubernetes native, uh, resources custom resources. And then that means the security information, your current security status could be queried over the kubernetes AP I, as you're querying the status or the deployment, say you can also be clearing to see whether it's passing configuration audits or it's passing vulnerability scans for the application containers inside that deployment. So that information is available through the same AP eyes through the queue control interface through dashboards like Octane, which is a nice dashboard viewer for kubernetes. And starboard brings security information not just from acquittals but from other vendor tools as well front and center into that kubernetes experience. So I'm really excited about Star Border. It's gonna be a great way of getting security visibility, Teoh more kubernetes use it >>all right. And we were talking earlier about just the maturity of projects and how they get into the sandbox. Is is this still pretty sandbox for >>this? OK, we're still very much in the early phases and you know it. I think in the open source world, we have the ability to share what we're doing early so that we can get feedback. We can see how it resonates with with real users. We've had some great feedback from partners that we've worked with and some actual customers who actually collaborated with When we're going through the initial design, some great feedback. There's still lots of work to do. But, yeah, the initial feedback has been really positive. >>Yeah, is usually the event is one of those places where you can help try toe, recruit some other people that might have tools as well as educate customers about what's going on. So is that part of the call to action on this is, you know, what are you looking for for kind of the rest of 2020 when it when it comes to this project? >>Yeah, absolutely. So internally, we're working on an operator which will automate some of the work that's double does in the background in terms off getting more collaboration. We would love to see integrations from or security tooling. We're talking with some people across the community about the resource definition, so we've come up with some custom resource definitions, but we'd love them to be applicable it to a variety of different tools. So we want to get feedback on on those definitions of people are interested in collaborating on that absolutely do come and talk to me and my team are reluctant. >>Great. Listen, and I'll give you the final word. Obviously, we're getting the community together while we're part So you know any other you know, engagement opportunities, you get togethers. Things that you want people to know about the European show this year. >>Well, it's gonna be really you know, I'm on tenterhooks to see whether or not we can recreate the same atmosphere as we would have in Q con. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but I really hope that people will engage online. Do come and, you know, ask questions of the speakers. Come and talk to the vendors, get into slack channels with the community. You know, this is an opportunity to pretend we're in the same room. Let's let's let's do what we can Teoh recreate as close as we can. That community experience that you keep corn is famous for >>Yeah, absolutely. That whole way track is something that is super challenging to recreate. And there's no way that I am getting the Indonesian food that I was so looking forward to in Amsterdam just such a great culinary and cultural city. So hopefully sometime in the future will be able to be back there. Liz Rice. Always pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for all the work you're doing on the TOC. And always a pleasure talking to you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right, Lots more coverage from Cube Con Cloud, Native con the European 2020 show, Of course. Virtual I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe. Of course the event this year was supposed to be in the Netherlands, I know I was very much looking forward to going to Amsterdam. This year of course it's going to be virtual, I'm really excited theCUBE's coverage, we've got some great members of the CNCF, we've got a bunch of end users, we've got some good thought leaders, and I'm also bringing a little bit of the Netherlands to help me bring in and start this keynote analysis, happy to welcome back to the program my cohost for the show, Joep Piscaer, who is an industry analyst with TLA. Thank you, Joep, so much for joining us, and we wish we could be with you in person, and check out your beautiful country. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me Stu, and I'm still a little disappointed we cannot eat the (indistinct foreign term) rijsttafel together this year. >> Oh, yeah, can we just have a segment to explain to people the wonder that is the fusion of Indonesian food and the display that you get only in the Netherlands? Rijsttafel, I seriously had checked all over the US and Canada, when I was younger, to find an equivalent, but one of my favorite culinary delights in the world, but we'll have to put a pin in that. You've had some warm weather in the Netherlands recently, and so many of the Europeans take quite a lot of time off in July and August, but we're going to talk about some hardcore tech, KubeCon, a show we love doing, the European show brings good diversity of experiences and customers from across the globe. So, let's start, the keynote, Priyanka Sharma, the new general manager of the CNCF, of course, just some really smart people that come out and talk about a lot of things. And since it's a foundation show, there's some news in there, but it's more about how they're helping corral all of these projects, of course, a theme we've talked about for a while is KubeCon was the big discussion for many years about Kubernetes, still important, and we'll talk about that, but so many different projects and everything from the sandbox, their incubation, through when they become fully, generally available, so, I guess I'll let you start and step back and say when you look at this broad ecosystem, you work with vendors, you've been from the customer side, what's top of mind for you, what's catching your attention? >> So, I guess from a cloud-native perspective, looking at the CNCF, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not about any individual technology, isn't about just Kubernetes or just Prometheus, or just service mesh. I think the added value of the CNCF, and the way I look at it at least, looking back at my customer perspective, I would've loved to have a organization curate the technology world around me, for me. To help me out with the decisions on a technology perspective that I needed to make to kind of move forward with my IT stack, and with the requirements my customer had, or my organization had, to kind of move that into the next phase. That is where I see the CNCF come in and do their job really well, to help organizations, both on the vendor side as well as on the customer side, take that next step, see around the corner, what's new, what's coming, and also make sure that between different, maybe even competing standards, the right ones surface up and become the de facto standard for organizations to use. >> Yeah, a lot of good thoughts there, Joep, I want to walk through that stack a little bit, but before we do, big statement that Priyanka made, I thought it was a nice umbrella for her keynote, it's a foundation of doers powering end user driven open-source, so as I mentioned, you worked at a service provider, you've done strategies for some other large organizations, what's your thought on the role of how the end users engage with and contribute to open-source? One of the great findings I saw a couple years ago, as you said, it went from open-source being something that people did on the weekend to the sides, to many end users, and of course lots of vendors, have full-time people that their jobs are to contribute and participate in the open-source communities. >> Yeah, I guess that kind of signals a maturity in the market to me, where organizations are investing in open-source because they know they're going to get something out of it. So back in the day, it was not necessarily certain that if you put a lot of effort into an open-source project, for your own gain, for your own purposes, that that would work out, and that with the backing of the CNCF, as well as so many member organizations and end user organizations, I think participating in open-source becomes easier, because there's more of a guarantee that what you put in will kind of circulate, and come out and have value for you, in a different way. Because if you're working on a service mesh, some other organization might be working on Prometheus, or Kubernetes, or another project, and some organizations are now kind of helping each other with the CNCF as the gatekeeper, to move all of those technology stacks forward, instead of everyone doing it for themselves. Maybe even being forced to reinvent the wheel for some of those technology components. >> So let's walk through the stack a little bit, and the layers that are out there, so let's start with Kubernetes, the discussion has been Kubernetes won the container orchestration battles, but whose Kubernetes am I going to use? For a while it was would it be distributions, we've seen every platform basically has at least one Kubernetes option built into it, so doesn't mean you're necessarily using this, before AWS had their own flavor of Kubernetes, there was at least 15 different ways that you could run Kubernetes on top of it, but now they have ECS, they have EKS, even things like Fargate now work with EKS, so interesting innovation and adoption there. But VMware baked Kubernetes into vSphere 7. Red Hat of course, with OpenShift, has thousands of customers and has great momentum, we saw SUSE buy Rancher to help them move along and make sure that they get embedded there. One of the startups you've worked with, Spectro Cloud, helps play into the mix there, so there is no shortage of options, and then from a management standpoint, companies like Microsoft, Google, VMware, Red Hat, all, how do I manage across clusters, because it's not going to just be one Kubernetes that you're going to use, we're expecting that you're going to have multiple options out there, so it sure doesn't sound boring to me yet, or reached full maturity, Joep. What's your take, what advice do you give to people out there when they say "Hey, okay, I'm going to use Kubernetes," I've got hybrid cloud, or I probably have a couple things, how should they be approaching that and thinking about how they engage with Kubernetes? >> So that's a difficult one, because it can go so many different ways, just because, like you said, the market is maturing. Which means, we're kind of back at where we left off virtualization a couple years ago, where we had managers of managers, managing across different data centers, doing the multicloud thing before it was a cloud thing. We have automation doing day two operations, I saw one of the announcements for this week will be a vendor coming out with day two operations automation, to kind of help simplify that stack of Kubernetes in production. And so the best advice I think I have is, don't try to do it all yourself, right, so Kubernetes is still maturing, it is still fairly open, in a sense that you can change everything, which makes it fairly complex to use and configure. So don't try and do that part yourself, necessarily, either use a managed service, which there are a bunch of, Spectro Cloud, for example, as well as Platform9, even the bigger players are now having those platforms. Because in the end, Kubernetes is kind of the foundation of what you're going to do on top of it. Kubernetes itself doesn't have business value in that sense, so spending a lot of time, especially at the beginning of a project, figuring that part out, I don't think makes sense, especially if the risk and the impact of making mistakes is fairly large. Like, make a mistake in a monitoring product, and you'll be able to fix that problem more easily. But make a mistake in a Kubernetes platform, and that's much more difficult, especially because I see organizations build one cluster to rule them all, instead of leveraging what the cloud offers, which is just spin up another cluster. Even spin it up somewhere else, because we can now do the multicloud thing, we can now manage applications across Kubernetes clusters, we can manage many different clusters from a single pane of glass, so there's really no reason anymore to see that Kubernetes thing as something really difficult that you have to do yourself, hence just do it once. Instead, my recommendation would be to look at your processes and figure out, how can I figure out how to have a Kubernetes cluster for everything I do, maybe that's per team, maybe that's per application or per environment, per cloud, and they kind of work from that, because, again, Kubernetes is not the holy grail, it's not the end state, it is a means to an end, to get where we're going with applications, with developing new functionality for customers. >> Well, I think you hit on a really important point, if you look out in the social discussion, sometimes Kubernetes and multicloud get attacked, because when I talk to customers, they shouldn't have a Kubernetes strategy. They have their business strategy, and there are certain things that they're trying to, "How do I make sure everything's secure," and I'm looking at DevSecOps, I need to really have an edge computing strategy because that's going to help my business objectives, and when I look at some of the tools that are going to help and get me there, well, Kubernetes, the service meshes, some of the other tools in the CNCF are going to help me get there, and as you said, I've got managed services, cloud providers, integrators are going to help me build those solutions without me having to spend years to understand how to do that. So yeah, I'd love to hear any interesting projects you're hearing about, edge computing, the security space has gone from super important to even more important if that's possible in 2020. What are you hearing? >> Yeah, so the most interesting part for me is definitely the DevSecOps movement, where we're basically not even allowed to call it DevOps anymore. Security has finally gained a foothold, they're finally able to shift lift the security practices into the realm of developers, simplifying it in a way, and automating it in a way that, it's no longer a trivial task to integrate security. And there's a lot of companies supporting that, even from a Kubernetes perspective, integrating with Kubernetes or integrating with networking products on top of Kubernetes. And I think we finally have reached a moment in time where security is no longer something that we really need to think about. Again, because CNCF is kind of helping us select the right projects, helping us in the right direction, so that making choices in the security realm becomes easier, and becomes a no-brainer for teams, special security teams, as well as the application development teams, to integrate security. >> Well, Joep, I'm glad to hear we've solved security, we can all go home now. That's awesome. But no, in all seriousness, such an important piece, lots of companies spending time on there, and it does feel that we are starting to get the process and organization around, so that we can attack these challenges a little bit more head-on. How 'about service mesh, it's one of those things that's been a little bit contentious the last couple of years, of course ahead of the show, Google is not donating Istio to the foundation, instead, the trademark's open. I'm going to have an interview with Liz Rice to dig into that piece, in the chess moves, Microsoft is now putting out a service mesh, so as Corey Quinn says, the plural of service mesh must be service meeshes, so, it feels like Mr. Meeseeks, for any Rick and Morty fans, we just keep pressing the button and more of them appear, which may cause us more trouble, but, what's your take, do you have a service mesh coming out, Kelsey Hightower had a fun little thing on Twitter about it, what's the state of the state? >> Yeah, so I won't be publishing a service mesh, maybe I'll try and rickroll someone, but we'll see what happens. But service meshes are, they're still a hot topic, it's still one of the spaces where most discussion is kind of geared towards. There is yet to form a single standard, there is yet a single block of companies creating a front to solve that service mesh issue, and I think that's because in the end, service meshes are, from a complexity perspective, they're not mature enough to be able to commoditize into a standard. I think we still need a little while, and maybe ask me this question next year again, and we'll see what happens. But we'll still need a little while to kind of let this market shift and let this market innovate, because I don't think we've reached the end state with service meshes. Also kind of gauging from customer interest and actual production implementations, I don't think this has trickled down from the largest companies that have the most requirements into the smaller companies, the smaller markets, which is something that we do usually see, now Kubernetes is definitely doing that. So in terms of service meshes, I don't think the innovation has reached that endpoint yet, and I think we'll still need a little while, which will mean for the upcoming period, that we'll kind of see this head to head from different companies, trying to gain a foothold, trying to lead a market, introduce their own products. And I think that's okay, and I think the CNCF will continue to kind of curate that experience, up to a point where maybe somewhere in the future we will have a noncompeting standard to finally have something that's commoditized and easy to implement. >> Yeah, it's an interesting piece, one of the things I've always enjoyed when I go to the show is just wander, and the things you bump into are like "Oh my gosh, wow, look at all of these cool little projects." I don't think we are going to stop that Cambrian explosion of innovation and ideas. When you go walk around there's usually over 200 vendors there, and a lot of them are opensource projects. I would say many of them, when you have a discussion with them, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a business behind that project, and that's where you also see maturity in spaces. A year or so ago, in the observability space, open tracing helped pull together a couple of pieces. Storage is starting to mature. Doesn't mean we're going to get down to one standard, there's still a couple of storage engines out there, I have some really good discussions this week to go into that, but it goes from, "Boy, storage is a mess," to "Oh, okay, we have a couple of uses," and just like storage in the data center, there's not a box or a protocol to do anything, it's what's your use case, what performance, what clouds, what environments are you living on, and therefore you can do that. So it's good to see lots of new things added, but then they mature out and they consolidate, and as you said, the CNCF is help giving those roadmaps, those maps, the landscapes, which boy, if you go online, they have some really good tools. Go to CNCF, the website, and you can look through, Cheryl Hung put one, I'm trying to remember which, it's basically a bullseye of the ones that, here's the one that's fully baked, and here's the ones that are making its way through, and the customer feedback, and they're going to do more of those to help give guidance, because no one solution is going to fit everybody's needs, and you have these spectrums of offerings. Wild card for you, are there any interesting projects out there, new things that you're hearing about, what areas should people be poking around that might not be the top level big things? >> So, I guess for me, that's really personal because I'm still kind of an infrastructure geek in that sense. So one of the things that really surprised me was a more traditional vendor, Zerto in this case, with a fantastic solution, finally, they're doing data protection for Kubernetes. And my recommendation would be to look at companies like Zerto in the data protection space, finally making that move into containers, because even though we've completed the discussion, stateful versus stateless, there's still a lot to be said for thinking about data protection, if you're going to go all-in into containers and into Kubernetes, so that was one that really provoked my thoughts, I really was interested in seeing, "Okay, what's Zerto doing in this list of CNCF members?" And for that matter, I think other vendors like VMware, like Red Hat, like other companies that are moving into this space, with a regained trust in their solutions, is something that I think is really interesting, and absolutely worth exploring during the event, to see what those more traditional companies, to use the term, are doing to innovate with their solutions, and kind of helping the CNCF and the cloud data world, become more enterprise-ready, and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make, where for the longest time, we've had this cloud-native versus traditional, but I always thought of it like cloud-native versus enterprise-ready, or proven technology. This is kind of for the developers doing a new thing, this is for the IT operations teams, and we're kind of seeing those two groups, at least from a technology perspective, being fused into one new blood group, making their way forward and innovating with those technologies. So, I think it's interesting to look at the existing vendors and the CNCF members to see where they're innovating. >> Well, Joep, you connected a dotted line between the cloud-native insights program that I've been doing, you were actually my first guest on that. We've got a couple of months worth of episodes out there, and it is closing that gap between what the developers are doing and what the enterprise was, so absolutely, there's architectural pieces, Joep, like you, I'm an infrastructure geek, so I come from those pieces, and there was that gap between, I'm going to use VMs, and now I'm using containers, and I'm looking at things like serverless too, how do we built applications, and is it that bottom-up versus top-down, and what a company's needs, they need to be able to react fast, they need to be able to change along the way, they need to be able to take advantage of the innovation that ecosystems like this have, so, I love the emphasis CNCF has, making sure that the end users are going to have a strong voice, because as you said, the big companies have come in, not just VMware and Red Hat, but, IBM and Dell are behind those two companies, and HPE, Cisco, many others out there that the behemoths out there, not to mention of course the big hyperscale clouds that helped start this, we wouldn't have a lot of this without Google kicking off with Kubernetes, AWS front and center, and an active participant here, and if you talk to the customers, they're all leveraging it, and of course Microsoft, so it is a robust, big ecosystem, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig into it, definitely hope we can have events back in the Netherlands in the near future, and great to see you as always. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, stay tuned, we have, as I said, full spectrum of interviews from theCUBE, they'll be broadcasting during the three days, and of course go to theCUBE.net to catch all of what we've done this year at the show, as well as all the back history. Feel free to reach out to me, I'm @Stu on Twitter, and thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)