(Upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, the next big thing in AI, security, and life sciences. We're here in the security track, and in this segment we feature Cequence Security. I'm your host, Dave Vellante, and today, we're joined by Subbu Iyer, who's the vice president of products at Cequence Security. And we're going to discuss the importance of rapidly discovering and addressing common API security gaps. We live in this API economy, and there's dangers out there. Welcome, Subbu. Great to have you on the Cube. >> Thanks, Dave. I'm happy to be here. >> Okay, every week, there's some other report in the paper, in the news, high profile security breaches. We all know about the Experian breach, the Clubhouse, a pretty popular app, and many, many others. But you know what's perhaps more scary is the ones we don't hear about, and there are a lot of those. APIs are increasingly targeted by cyber criminals as a weak link to steal data and commit fraud. So, Subbu, in thinking about your customers and how they're using your solution, what are some of the patterns that you're discerning, and how are you addressing this problem within your community? >> Yeah, APIs are a very common avenue for exploiting vulnerabilities in applications, and what we are discovering amongst our customers is that there are elementary gaps that are being left behind in APIs. For instance, APIs that are completely unauthenticated, and it's practically like leaving your front door open and allowing anybody to walk in. I mean, there are APIs that aren't authenticated, APIs that are exposing sensitive information, like credit card numbers or social security numbers completely out in the clear. Or APIs that are using weak forms of authentication that are very easily bypassed. The OWASP API top ten is actually a pretty good handy list for people to look up, and those are, we see many of those as being very commonly seen vulnerabilities in APIs. >> Yeah. I mean, your adversaries, they're experts at automation. They knock on that door, and if it's open, they come right in. (Laughs) They don't even have to manually do it. They just automatic. So, talk a little bit more about that, that problem of poor API visibility in this world in which we now live. >> Yeah. You nailed it. I mean, visibility is the number one thing that everybody should be thinking about. In an age where APIs are ubiquitous, like everything talks to everything else by APIs, lack of knowledge of how many APIs there are out there that a customer has exposed is the number one challenge that anybody should start with. Getting your arms around the problem statement of how many APIs do I have that are publicly exposed, are privately exposed to other organizations, is really where it all starts. And once you have discovered all those APIs, then you basically look at what risk those APIs pose to you, like how many of those APIs aren't authenticated? How many of those APIs are using very weak forms of authentication or are exposing sensitive information on, you know, subject to some of the other commonly seen risks? >> You know, authentication is the other area. And not just humans. You know, talking about machines as well. So, this is a critical weak link, and it's fraught with complexity. You've got multiple devices. You've got service connections. And it's very error prone. How much of a problem is this, and what can we do about it? >> Authentication is actually the most basic and the most commonly seen vulnerability or flaw in APIs. The most common flaw that we see in APIs is the problem of APIs not having any authentication at all or having very weak forms of authentication. To kind of go back to our front door analogy, that's like either leaving your front door completely unlocked, or leaving your front door locked and leaving the key under the doormat hoping that nobody is going to pull up the doormat and find the key in there. Like, it's pretty much the equivalent of that for APIs that we see. That's really the gambit of like authentication related issues that we see, like in that ballpark of either weak forms of authentication that attackers really don't have to even break a sweat to kind of find their way around them and walk in. >> You know, I recently wrote about this. I wanted to ask you about another disturbing trend that we see, and that's, you know, adversaries, they're looking in our environments, and they're stealth. You know, they're living off the land and using your tools against you so you don't even see them a lot of times. While they're there, they're exfiltrating troves of very valuable information. In one study I read, they were committing fraud and identity theft, but they were also stealing sensitive data so they could act on it, like front running a trade. And so... And then they would hold that data, that sensitive data. Another example, it was healthcare data, private information. And they're hold it on reserve, so to speak, so they could extort victims once they're discovered and there's an incident response. So this exposure to sensitive data, it's an enormous problem, and I wonder if you could share your thoughts on this topic and how to help remediate it. >> Yep. Sensitive data exposure is another one of the OWASP API top ten, and something that we see pretty often with APIs. And you're right. Adversaries basically look for avenues where they can exploit these sensitive data flaws that an API may have. Common ways of doing that are maybe the attacker discovers or finds the mobile application for that particular application. It may be a retail app, a finance app. And the user may create a valid account in there, so get in there as a valid account, and see the APIs that are being communicated by the mobile app with the API backend, and then see if they can retrieve other people's information or that same API, by changing the user ID or other tokens that they are sending back. And if they are able to break in and they're actually able to get other users' information, that's basically exfiltration, data exfiltration. And they just run that in a script and are able to exfiltrate lots of data from the API backend if the access control on the backend is weak and this API is really not protected very well. So, one of the key things that we do in Cequence is provide visibility to our customers about what form, which APIs are exposing sensitive data information. What sensitive information are they? So, are they credit card numbers, social security numbers, some other proprietary identifiers that a customer may have, and really how are they leaking this information? Is it in the response body? Is it in the response header? And so on. So, we really give them the ability to hone in on where the leakage is happening. >> Okay. So, full visibility. Maybe talk a little bit more about that. I mean, can you share a little bit about, you know, your secret sauce, if you will? Your kind of unique approach to solving this problem? >> Yeah. That's a good questions. So, Cequence is in the business of providing continuous visibility and monitoring and protection to customers for their public facing web applications and APIs. And we do this by essentially providing the ability, to start with, to customers to discover all of their public facing APIs. And we do that by essentially tapping into their network at various points. We can tap into an API gateway, a load balancer, or really deep into their microservices applications, to tap into their modern API-based applications as well. And by tapping into multiple sources within their environment, we are essentially gleaning a complete picture of what their application attack surface looks like. So, all of these become what we call sensors that essentially communicate information back to a central repository and aggregate all that information together, and then produce this visibility of saying you have however many APIs. And then that's where a lot of analysis happens to see who's communicating all of these APIs. Are we getting traffic from external sources? internal sources? How are the API communications happening? Is it in clear text? And so on. And that's where the visibility really happens. >> And these so-called sensors, they're sort of embedded as part of your service. So, I'm acquiring a service from you, correct? Maybe you could describe a little bit more about how I interact with your product portfolio. >> Yep, yep. So, our technology is flexible enough that it can be completely deployed as a software as a service, so needing nothing to be deployed on a customer's premises at all. Or it can, or we are flexible enough to actually support on premises deployments for some of our larger customers like financial customers or other data privacy related customers who would rather have this infrastructure on their premises. And these sensors are really these little modules that go in their network environment, so they're easy to deploy, easy to integrate with any network-based options like load balancers or firewalls or API gateways. And really, the backend can be consumed either as a software based application like a docker or Kubernetes application on the customer's premises, or consumed within the sequence cloud, so needing absolutely nothing to be managed or maintained by the customer at all. So, really the customer, to start with, essentially comes to Cequence and says, "Hey, how do I get an environment up and running where I can play with my, where I can discover my APIs?" And we can spin up an environment in our cloud in a matter of minutes or hours. And before you know it, we can drop a couple of sensors in their environment, and we are discovering their APIs. >> And then what? So, if you... You discover some APIs, the key under the doormat, so to speak, what do I then do as a customer? How do you help me accelerate that remediation? >> Excellent. And that's where one of the important aspects of our product called mitigation comes in the picture. Mitigation is a remediation action where a customer can actually take action in the run time to actually stop some of this back traffic from happening. For instance, if you see an API that... One of the common things that we discover in APIs are what we call shadow APIs. So, when we talked about API visibility, what a customer discovers is all of their known APIs and unknown APIs. So known APIs are APIs that they know about. Oh, that's my payment API. This is my billing API, and so on. And they also discover APIs that they did not know exist, like a newer version of an API that the development team has exposed. And they go, "Wait a minute. When, how did that get exposed to the public? We haven't even done a security audit of this thing." So, if they see APIs like this that should not have been made public but are public and are being used, they can use Cequence to essentially block traffic to those APIs, these unreleased APIs, or these hidden APIs that should never have gone public but are public, either because of unintentional mistakes on somebody's part or because of certain compliance loopholes or something that these were made public. So, we can take action and prevent traffic from hitting these APIs. >> And I would imagine, Subbu, that, I mean, every environment's different. I mean, I would imagine people make the same mistakes across different environments, but every environment is really a snowflake. I mean, it's an individual, you know, configuration. And so... But I wonder, are you seeing, well, sort of what was my first question, what kind of patterns are you seeing? But are you seeing, you know, customers exposed in sort of the same areas? Or are you seeing like I'm describing, every situation is different? >> We do see situations being different. >> Hmm. >> I have seen environments where the production environment had a weaker security posture than a development environment. >> Hmm. >> That was presumably because the development environment was running a newer version of their application, so it had plugged some of these API gaps, was not leaking sensitive information. But the production environment is running an older version. So, it had flaws that the development environment did not. And I've seen vice versa as well. So, really it depends upon like how their CI/CD processes, how soon are they able to get these applications into production, and so on. And accordingly, they put in actions in, let's say, in the appropriate environment, the dev environment or the prod environment to stop these attacks from hitting that environment. >> So, if a customer comes to you, you know, fresh, you haven't worked with that customer, and then you deploy these sensors and you help them sort of clean up their operation. And presumably they want to keep working with you because their environment is constantly changing, are they then... You know, it's kind of a cliche, but shifting left, you know, where they're building this in to their development process as opposed to saying, "Okay, we've just deployed. Now let's call Cequence in." Right? Are you able to align with the development life cycle more closely? >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's an ideology that we do here at Cequence. What we say is shift left while shielding right. What that means is, yes, shifting left is an important strategy for you to essentially take these actions earlier on in the development process before these APIs become public. But one of the key tenets of application security is to shield your applications from bad traffic. Shield your applications from these attackers who are trying to enumerate these IDs and trying to exfiltrate information. So, you need to protect your applications from bad traffic. So, while shielding the right, we allow customers to start shielding left so that they can start testing some of these APIs before they go into production. So, before these APIs even become, see the light of day, let's say a newer version of an API, we are working with customers in that journey so that they can find this sooner and sooner in the development life cycle. So, yep. We absolutely see that as an evolution for customers. >> Thank you for that. So, I got two more questions for you. The first one is kind of a fun question that theCUBE team, you know, wanted to ask. We're asking all the startups. Remember, the event, it's all about cloud scale. And so, of course, when you launch a company, a startup, it's exciting time. You're innovating, developing new products, moving fast, breaking things, helping customers out, disrupting. All those cool things. Growing the company. You know, increasing revenue. Great. But there's more even. And so what we're asking folks like yourself, Subbu, is what is your defining contribution to the future of cloud scale? >> Yep. So, cloud scale is not possible without a digital transformation of applications. So, applications have to be digitally transformed so that they are ready for the modern cloud age. And in order to do that, applications have to become API first. They have to understand APIs. They have to communicate to other applications why APIs and allow other applications to communicate by APIs. So, to truly achieve cloud scale, digital transformation is an absolute must. And we are playing our part in that journey for customers in digital transformation by allowing them to go on to their digital transformation journeys and allowing cloud scale by protecting their APIs, allowing them to discover their APIs and protecting their APIs, allowing them to reach cloud scale. >> Great. Thank you for that. Now, let's summarize, and I wonder if you can sort of bring us home, and give us your thoughts. I mean, there's a balancing act that we have to do between you want to tap into the API trend and the value that it brings, but at the same time, you got to mitigate the risks associated with that. And just give us a summary on the right prescription. >> Yep. So, to kind of bring it all together, right? API security is top of minds for many (indistinct) across the board. And it all starts with API visibility. You cannot protect what you cannot see. So, you have to be able to discover your entire API attack surface so you know what's going on with your APIs. And then you put in shield right strategies where you essentially are blocking the bad traffic from hitting your applications. That's basically the logical evolution from, you know, discovering the bad traffic in your environment. First, visibility, and then protect what is going on. And then start shielding left, shifting left, by essentially being able to take these actions sooner in your development life cycle so that some of these bad traffic can never possibly hit your applications because you have shifted left. >> Excellent. Well, Subbu, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE today. It was great to have you. Great stuff. >> Thank you, Dave, for having me. This was great. Thank you so much. >> Our pleasure. And thank you for watching theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, the next big thing in AI, security, and life sciences. Keep it right there for more great content. (upbeat music begins) (upbeat music fades out)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante aws is pointing the way to a revolution in system architecture much in the same way that aws defined the cloud operating model last decade we believe it is once again leading in future systems design the secret sauce underpinning these innovations is specialized designs that break the stranglehold of inefficient and bloated centralized processing and allows aws to accommodate a diversity of workloads that span cloud data center as well as the near and far edge hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll dig into the moves that aws has been making which we believe define the future of computing we'll also project what this means for customers partners and aws many competitors now let's take a look at aws's architectural journey the is revolution it started by giving easy access as we all know to virtual machines that could be deployed and decommissioned on demand amazon at the time used a highly customized version of zen that allowed multiple vms to run on one physical machine the hypervisor functions were controlled by x86 now according to werner vogels as much as 30 of the processing was wasted meaning it was supporting hypervisor functions and managing other parts of the system including the storage and networking these overheads led to aws developing custom asics that help to accelerate workloads now in 2013 aws began shipping custom chips and partnered with amd to announce ec2 c3 instances but as the as the aws cloud started to scale they really weren't satisfied with the performance gains that they were getting and they were hitting architectural barriers that prompted aws to start a partnership with anaperta labs this was back in 2014 and they launched then ec2 c4 instances in 2015. the asic in c4 optimized offload functions for storage and networking but still relied on intel xeon as the control point aws aws shelled out a reported 350 million dollars to acquire annapurna in 2015 which is a meager sum to acquire the secret sauce of its future system design this acquisition led to a modern version of project nitro in 2017 nitro nitro offload cards were first introduced in 2013 at this time aws introduced c5 instances and replaced zen with kvm and more tightly coupled the hypervisor with the asic vogels shared last year that this milestone offloaded the remaining components including the control plane the rest of the i o and enabled nearly a hundred percent of the processing to support customer workloads it also enabled a bare metal version of the compute that spawned the partnership the famous partnership with vmware to launch vmware cloud on aws then in 2018 aws took the next step and introduced graviton its custom designed arm-based chip this broke the dependency on x86 and launched a new era of architecture which now supports a wide variety of configurations to support data intensive workloads now these moves preceded other aws innovations including new chips optimized for machine learning and training and inferencing and all kinds of ai the bottom line is aws has architected an approach that offloaded the work currently done by the central processing unit in most general purpose workloads like in the data center it has set the stage in our view for the future allowing shared memory memory disaggregation and independent resources that can be configured to support workloads from the cloud all the way to the edge and nitro is the key to this architecture and to summarize aws nitro think of it as a set of custom hardware and software that runs on an arm-based platform from annapurna aws has moved the hypervisor the network the storage virtualization to dedicated hardware that frees up the cpu to run more efficiently this in our opinion is where the entire industry is headed so let's take a look at that this chart pulls data from the etr data set and lays out key players competing for the future of cloud data center and the edge now we've superimposed nvidia up top and intel they don't show up directly in the etr survey but they clearly are platform players in the mix we covered nvidia extensively in previous breaking analysis and won't go too deep there today but the data shows net scores on the vertical axis that's a measure of spending velocity and then it shows market share in the horizontal axis which is a measure of pervasiveness within the etr data set we're not going to dwell on the relative positions here rather let's comment on the players and start with aws we've laid out aws how they got here and we believe they are setting the direction for the future of the industry and aws is really pushing migration to its arm-based platforms pat morehead at the 6-5 summit spoke to dave brown who heads ec2 at aws and he talked extensively about migrating from x86 to aws's arm-based graviton 2. and he announced a new developer challenge to accelerate that migration to arm instances graviton instances and the end game for customers is a 40 better price performance so a customer running 100 server instances can do the same work with 60 servers now there's some work involved but for the by the customers to actually get there but the payoff if they can get 40 improvement in price performance is quite large imagine this aws currently offers 400 different ec2 instances last year as we reported sorry last year as we reported earlier this year nearly 50 percent of the new ec2 instances so nearly 50 percent of the new ec2 instances shipped in 2020 were arm based and aws is working hard to accelerate this pace it's very clear now let's talk about intel i'll just say it intel is finally responding in earnest and basically it's taking a page out of arm's playbook we're going to dig into that a bit today in 2015 intel paid 16.7 billion dollars for altera a maker of fpgas now also at the 6.5 summit nevin shenoy of intel presented details of what intel is calling an ipu it's infrastructure processing unit this is a departure from intel norms where everything is controlled by a central processing unit ipu's are essentially smart knicks as our dpus so don't get caught up in all the acronym soup as we've reported it's all about offloading work and disaggregating memory and evolving socs system-on-chip and sops system on package but just let this sink in a bit a bit for a moment intel's moves this past week it seems to us anyway are designed to create a platform that is nitro like and the basis of that platform is a 16.7 billion dollar acquisition just compare that to aws's 350 million dollar tuck-in of annapurna that is incredible now chenoy said in his presentation rough quote we've already deployed ipu's using fpgas in a in very high volume at microsoft azure and we've recently announced partnerships with baidu jd cloud and vmware so let's look at vmware vmware is the other you know really big platform player in this race in 2020 vmware announced project monterrey you might recall that it's based on the aforementioned fpgas from intel so vmware is in the mix and it chose to work with intel most likely for a variety of reasons one of the obvious ones is all the software that's running on on on vmware it's been built for x86 and there's a huge install base there the other is pat was heading vmware at the time and and you know when project monterey was conceived so i'll let you connect the dots if you like regardless vmware has a nitro like offering in our view its optionality however is limited by intel but at least it's in the game and appears to be ahead of the competition in this space aws notwithstanding because aws is clearly in the lead now what about microsoft and google suffice it to say that we strongly believe that despite the comments that intel made about shipping fpgas and volume to microsoft that both microsoft and google as well as alibaba will follow aws's lead and develop an arm-based platform like nitro we think they have to in order to keep pace with aws now what about the rest of the data center pack well dell has vmware so despite the split we don't expect any real changes there dell is going to leverage whatever vmware does and do it better than anyone else cisco is interesting in that it just revamped its ucs but we don't see any evidence that it has a nitro like plans in its roadmap same with hpe now both of these companies have history and capabilities around silicon cisco designs its own chips today for carrier class use cases and and hpe as we've reported probably has some remnants of the machine hanging around but both companies are very likely in our view to follow vmware's lead and go with an intel based design what about ibm well we really don't know we think the best thing ibm could do would be to move the ibm cloud of course to an arm-based nitro-like platform we think even the mainframe should move to arm as well i mean it's just too expensive to build a specialized mainframe cpu these days now oracle they're interesting if we were running oracle we would build an arm-based nitro-like database cloud where oracle the database runs cheaper faster and consumes less energy than any other platform that would would dare to run oracle and we'd go one step further and we would optimize for competitive databases in the oracle cloud so we would make oci run the table on all databases and be essentially the database cloud but you know back to sort of fpgas we're not overly excited about about the market amd is acquiring xi links for 35 billion dollars so i guess that's something to get excited about i guess but at least amd is using its inflated stock price to do the deal but we honestly we think that the arm ecosystem will will obliterate the fpga market by making it simpler and faster to move to soc with far better performance flexibility integration and mobility so again we're not too sanguine about intel's acquisition of altera and the moves that amd is making in in the long term now let's take a deeper look at intel's vision of the data center of the future here's a chart that intel showed depicting its vision of the future of the data center what you see is the ipu's which are intelligent nixed and they're embedded in the four blocks shown and they're communicating across a fabric now you have general purpose compute in the upper left and machine intelligent on the bottom left machine intelligence apps and up in the top right you see storage services and then the bottom right variation of alternative processors and this is intel's view of how to share resources and go from a world where everything is controlled by a central processing unit to a more independent set of resources that can work in parallel now gelsinger has talked about all the cool tech that this will allow intel to incorporate including pci and gen 5 and cxl memory interfaces and or cxl memory which are interfaces that enable memory sharing and disaggregation and 5g and 6g connectivity and so forth so that's intel's view of the future of the data center let's look at arm's vision of the future and compare them now there are definite similarities as you can see especially on the right hand side of this chart you've got the blocks of different process processor types these of course are programmable and you notice the high bandwidth memory the hbm3 plus the ddrs on the two sides kind of bookending the blocks that's shared across the entire system and it's connected by pcie gen 5 cxl or ccix multi-die socket so you know you may be looking to say okay two sets of block diagrams big deal well while there are similarities around disaggregation and i guess implied shared memory in the intel diagram and of course the use of advanced standards there are also some notable differences in particular arm is really already at the soc level whereas intel is talking about fpgas neoverse arms architecture is shipping in test mode and we'll have end market product by year end 2022 intel is talking about maybe 2024 we think that's aspirational or 2025 at best arm's road map is much more clear now intel said it will release more details in october so we'll pay attention then maybe we'll recalibrate at that point but it's clear to us that arm is way further along now the other major difference is volume intel is coming at this from a high data center perspective and you know presumably plans to push down market or out to the edge arm is coming at this from the edge low cost low power superior price performance arm is winning at the edge and based on the data that we shared earlier from aws it's clearly gaining ground in the enterprise history strongly suggests that the volume approach will win not only at the low end but eventually at the high end so we want to wrap by looking at what this means for customers and the partner ecosystem the first point we'd like to make is follow the consumer apps this capability the capabilities that we see in consumer apps like image processing and natural language processing and facial recognition and voice translation these inference capabilities that are going on today in mobile will find their way into the enterprise ecosystem ninety percent of the cost associated with machine learning in the cloud is around inference in the future most ai in the enterprise and most certainly at the edge will be inference it's not today because it's too expensive this is why aws is building custom chips for inferencing to drive costs down so it can increase adoption now the second point is we think that customers should start experimenting and see what you can do with arm-based platforms moore's law is accelerating at least the outcome of moore's law the doubling of performance every of the 18 to 24 months it's it's actually much higher than that now when you add up all the different components in these alternative processors just take a look at apple's a5 a15 chip and arm is in the lead in terms of performance price performance cost and energy consumption by moving some workloads onto graviton for example you'll see what types of cost savings you can drive for which applications and possibly generate new applications that you can deliver to your business put a couple engineers in the task and see what they can do in two or three weeks you might be surprised or you might say hey it's too early for us but you'll find out and you may strike gold we would suggest that you talk to your hybrid cloud provider as well and find out if they have a nitro we shared that vmware they've got a clear path as does dell because they're you know vmware cousins what about your other strategic suppliers what's their roadmap what's the time frame to move from where they are today to something that resembles nitro do they even think about that how do they think about that do they think it's important to get there so if if so or if not how are they thinking about reducing your costs and supporting your new workloads at scale now for isvs these consumer capabilities that we discussed earlier all these mobile and and automated systems and cars and and things like that biometrics another example they're going to find their way into your software and your competitors are porting to arm they're embedding these consumer-like capabilities into their apps are you we would strongly recommend that you take a look at that talk to your cloud suppliers and see what they can do to help you innovate run faster and cut costs okay that's it for now thanks to my collaborator david floyer who's been on this topic since early last decade thanks to the community for your comments and insights and hey thanks to patrick morehead and daniel newman for some timely interviews from your event nice job fellas remember i published each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com these episodes are all available as podcasts just search for breaking analysis podcasts you can always connect with me on twitter at d vallante or email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com i appreciate the comments on linkedin and clubhouse so follow us if you see us in a room jump in and let's riff on these topics and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2021 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE'S coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021 Virtual, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guests here, always great to talk to the KubeCon co-chairs and we have Stephen Augustus Head of Open Source at Cisco and also the KubeCon co-chair great to have you back. And Jasmine James Manager and Engineering Effectives at Twitter, the KubeCon co-chair, she's new on the job so we're not going to grill her too hard but she's excited to share her perspective, Jasmine, Stephen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> So obviously the co-chairs you guys see everything upfront Jasmine, you're going to learn that this is a really kind of key fun position because you've got to multiple hats you got to wear, you got to put a great program together, you got to entertain and surprise and delight the attendees and also can get the right trends, pick everything right and then keep that harmonious vibe going at CNCF and KubeCon is hard so it's a hard job. So I got to ask you out of the gate, what are the top trends that you guys have selected and are pushing forward this year that we're seeing evolve and unfold here at KubeCon? >> For sure yeah. So I'm excited to see, and I would say that some of the top trends for Cloud Native right now are just changes in the ecosystem, how we think about different use cases for Cloud Native technology. So you'll see lot's of talk about new architectures being introduced into Cloud Native technologies or things like WebAssembly. WebAssembly Wasm used cases and really starting to and again, I think I mentioned this every time, but like what are the customer used cases actually really thinking about how all of these building blocks connect and create a cohesive story. So I think a lot of it is enduring and will always be a part. My favorite thing to see is pretty much always maintainer and user stories, but yeah, but architecture is Wasm and security. Security is a huge focus and it's nice to see it comes to the forefront as we talked about having these like the security day, as well as all of the talk arounds, supply chain security, it has been a really, really, really big event (laughs) I'll say. >> Yeah. Well, great shot from last year we have been we're virtual again, but we're back in, the real world is coming back in the fall, so we hopefully in North America we'll be in person. Jasmine, you're new to the job. Tell us a little about you introduce yourself to the community and tell more about who you are and why you're so excited to be the co-chair with Stephen. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jasmine James, I've been in the industry for the past five or six years previous at Delta Airlines, now at Twitter, as a part of my job at Delta we did a huge drive on adopting Kubernetes. So a lot of those experiences, I was very, very blessed to be a part of in making the adoption and really the cultural shift, easy for developers during my time there. I'm really excited to experience like Cloud Native from the co-chair perspective because historically I've been like on the consumer side going to talk, taking all those best practices, stealing everything I could into bring it back into my job. So make everyone's life easier. So it's really, really great to see all of the fantastic ideas that are being presented, all of the growth and maturity within the Cloud Native world. Similar to Stephen, I'm super excited to hear about the security stuff, especially as it relates to making it easy for developers to shift left on security versus it being such an afterthought and making it something that you don't really have to think about. Developer experience is huge for me which is why I took the job at Twitter six months ago, so I'm really excited to see what I can learn from the other co-chairs and to bring it back to my day-to-day. >> Yeah, Twitter's been very active in open source. Everyone knows that and it's a great chance to see you land there. One of the interesting trends is this year I'll see besides security is GitOps but the one that I think is relevant to your background so fresh is the end user contributions and involvement has been really exploding on the scene. It's always been there. We've covered, Envoy with Lyft but now enterprise is now mainstream enterprises have been kind of going to the open source well and bringing those goodies back to their camps and building out and bringing it back. So you starting to see that flywheel developing you've been on that side now here. Talk about that dynamic and how real that is an important and share some perspective of what's really going on around this explosion around more end user contribution, more end user involvement. >> Absolutely. So I really think that a lot of industry like players are starting to see the importance of contributing back to open source because historically we've done a lot of taking, utilizing these different components to drive the business logic and not really making an investment in the product itself. So it's really, really great to see large companies invest in open source, even have whole teams dedicated to open source and how it's consumed internally. So I really think it's going to be a big win for the companies and for the open source community because I really am a big believer in like giving back and making sure that you should give back as much as you're taking and by making it easy for companies to do the right thing and then even highlighting it as a part of CNCF, it'll be really, really great, just a drive for a great environment for everyone. So really excited to see that. >> That's really good. She has been awesome stuff. Great, great insight. Stephen, I just have you piggyback off that and comment on companies enterprises that want to get more involved with the Cloud Native community from their respective experiences, what's the playbook, is there a new on-ramps? Is there new things? Is there a best practice? What's your view? I mean, obviously everyone's growing and changing. You look at IT has changed. I mean, IT is evolving completely to CloudOps, SRE get ops day two operations. It's pretty much standard now but they need to learn and change. What's your take on this? >> Yeah, so I think that to Jasmine's point and I'm not sure how much we've discussed my background in the past, but I actually came from the corporate IT background, did Desktop Sr, Desktop helped us support all of that stuff up into operations, DevOps, SRE, production engineering. I was an SRE at a startup who used core West technologies and started using Kubernetes back when Kubernetes is that one, two, I think. And that was my first journey into Cloud Native. And I became core less is like only customer to employee convert, right? So I'm very much big on that end user story and figuring out how to get people involved because that was my story as well. So I think that, some of the work that we do or a lot of the work that we do in contributor strategy, the SIG CNCF St. Contributor Strategy is all around thinking through how to bring on new contributors to these various Cloud Native projects, Right? So we've had chats with container D and linker D and a bunch of other folks across the ecosystem, as well as the kind of that maintainer circle sessions that we hold which are kind of like a private, not recorded. So maintainers can kind of get raw and talk about what they're feeling, whether it be around bolstering contributions or whether it'd be like managing burnout, right? Or thinking about how you talk through the values and the principles for your projects. So I think that, part of that story is building for multiple use cases, right? You take Kubernetes for example, right? So Ameritas chair for sync PM over in Kubernetes, one of the sub project owners for the enhancements sub project which involves basically like figuring out how we intake new enhancements to the community but as well as like what the end user cases are all of the use cases for that, right? How do we make it easy to use the technology and how we make it more effective for people to have conversations about how they use technology, right? So I think it's kind of a continuing story and it's delightful to see all of the people getting involved in a SIG Contributor Strategy, because it means that they care about all of the folks that are coming into their projects and making it a more welcoming and easier to contribute place so. >> Yeah. That's great stuff. And one of the things you mentioned about IT in your background and the scale change from IT and just the operational change over is interesting. I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about, get Op and, SRAs and how, in colleges is that an engineering track or is it computer science and it's kind of a hybrid, right? So you're seeing essentially this new operational model at scale that's CloudOps. So you've got hybrid, you've got on-premise, you've got Cloud Native and now soon to be multi-cloud so new things come into play architecture, coding, and programmability. All these things are like projects now in CNCF. And that's a lot of vendors and contributors but as a company, the IT functions is changing fast. So that's going to require more training and more involvement and yet open source is filling the void if you look at some of the successes out there, it's interesting. Can you comment on the companies that are out there saying, "Hey, I know my IT department is going to be turning into essentially SRE operations or CloudOps at scale. How do they get there? How could they work with KubeCon and what's the key playbook? How would you answer that? >> Yeah, so I would say, first off the place to go is the one-on-one track. We specifically craft that one-on-one track to make sure that people who are new to Cloud Native get a very cohesive story around what they're trying to get into, right? At any one time. So head to the one-on-one track, please add to the one-on-one track, hang out, definitely check out all of the keynotes that again, the keynotes, we put a lot of work into making sure these keynotes tell a very nice story about all of the technology and the amount of work that our presenters put into it as well is phenomenal. It's top notch. It's top notch every time. So those will always be my suggestions. Actually go to the keynotes and definitely check out the one-on-one track. >> Awesome. Jasmine, I got to get your take on this now that you're on the KubeCon and you're co-chairing with Stephen, what's your story to the folks that are in the end user side out there that were in your old position that you were at Delta doing some great Kubernetes work but now it's going beyond Kubernetes. I was just talking with another participant in the KubeCon ecosystem is saying, "It's not just Kubernetes anymore. There's other systems that we're going to deploy our real-time metrics on and whatnot". So what's the story? What's the update? What do you see on the inside now now that you're on board and you're at a Hyperscale at Twitter, what's your advice? What's your commentary to your old friends and the end user world? >> Yeah. It's not an easy task. I think that was, you had mentioned about starting with the one-on-one is like super key. Like that's where you should start. There's so many great stories out there in previous KubeCon that have been told. I was listening to those stories and the great thing about our community is that it's authentic, right? We're telling like all of the ways we tripped up so we can prevent you from doing this same thing and having an easier path, which is really awesome. Another thing I would say is do not underestimate the cultural shift, right? There are so many tools and technologies out there, but there's also a cultural transformation that has to happen. You're shifting from, traditional IT roles to a really holistic like so many different things are changing about the way infrastructure was interacted with the way developers are developing. So don't underestimate the cultural shift and make sure you're bringing everyone to the party because there's a lot of perspectives from the development side that needs to be considered before you make the shift initially So that way you can make sure you're approaching the problem in the right way. So those would be my recommendation. >> Also, speaking of cultural shifts, Stephen I know this is a big passion of yours is diversity in the ecosystem. I think with COVID we've seen probably in the past two years a major cultural shifts on the personnel involved, the people participating, still a lot more work to get done. Where are we on diversity in the ecosystem? How would you rate the progress and the overall achievements? >> I would say doing better, but never stop what has happened in COVID I think, if you look across companies, if you look across the opportunities that have opened up for people in general, there have been plenty of doors that have shut, right? And doors that have really made the assumption that you need to be physical are in person to do good work. And I think that the Cloud Native ecosystem the work that the LF and CNCF do, and really the way that we interact in projects has kind of pushed towards this async first, this remote first work culture, right? So you see it in these large corporations that have had to change the travel policies because of COVID and really for someone who's coming off being like a field engineer and solutions architect, right? The bread and butter is hopping on and off a plane, shaking hands, going to dinner, doing the song and dance, right? With customers. And for that model to functionally shift, right? Having conversations in different ways, right? And yeah, sometimes it's a lot of Zoom calls, right? Zoom calls, webinars, all of these things but I think some of what has happened is, you take the release team, for example, the Kubernetes release team. This is our first cycle with Dave Vellante who's our 121 released team lead is based in India, right? And that's the first time that we've had APAC region release team lead and what that forced us to do, we were already working on it. But what that forced us to do is really focused on asynchronous communication. How can we get things done without having to have people in the room? And we were like, "With Dave Vellante in here, it either works or it doesn't like, we're either going to prove that what we've put in place works for asynchronous communication or it doesn't." And then, given that a project of this scale can operate just fine, right? Right just fine delivering a release with people all across the globe. It proves that we have a lot of flexibility in the way that we offer opportunities, both on the open source side, as well as on the company side. >> Yeah. And I got to say KubeCon has always been global from day one. I was in Shanghai and I was in hung, Jo, visiting Ali Baba. And who do I see in the lobby? The CNCF crew. And I'm like, "What are you guys doing here?" "Oh, we're here talking to the cloud with Alibaba." So global is huge. You guys have nailed that. So congratulations and keep that going. Jasmine, your perspective is women in tech. I mean, you're seeing more and more focus and some great doors opening. It's still not enough. We've been covering this for a long time. Still the numbers are down, but we had a great conference recently at Stanford Women in Data Science amazing conference, a lot of power players coming in, women in tech is evolving. What's your take on this still a lot more work to done. You're an inspiration. Share your story. >> Yeah. We have a long way to go. There's no question about it. I do think that there's a lot of great organizations CNCF being one of them, really doing a great job at sharing, networking opportunities, encouraging other women to contribute to open source and letting that be sort of the gateway into a tech career. My journey is starting as a systems engineer at Delta, working my way into leadership, somehow I'm not sure I ended up there but really sort of shifting and being able to lift other women up has been like so fortunate to be able to do that. Women who code being a mentor, things of that nature has been a great opportunity, but I do feel like the open source community has a long way go to be a more welcoming place for women contributors, things like code of conduct, that being very prevalent making sure that it's not daunting and scary, going into GitHub and starting to create a PR for out of fear of what someone might say about your contributions instead of it being sort of an educational experience. So I think there's a lot of opportunities but there's a lot of programs, networking opportunities out there, especially everyone being remote now that have presented themselves. So I'm very hopeful. And the CNCF, like I said is doing a great job at highlighting these women contributors that are making changes to CNCF projects in really making it something that is celebrated which is really great. >> Yeah. You know that I love Stephen and we thought this last time and the Clubhouse app has come online since we were last talking and it's all audio. So there's a lot of ideas and it's all open. So with a synchronous first you have more access but still context matters. So the language, so there's still more opportunities potentially to offend or get it right so this is now becoming a new cultural shift. You brought this up last time we chatted around the language, language is important. So I think this is something that we're keeping an eye on and trying to keep open dialogue around, "Hey it matters what you say, asynchronously or in texts." We all know that text moment where someone said, "I didn't really mean that." But it was offensive or- >> It's like you said it. (laughs) >> (murmurs) you passionate about this here. This is super important how we work. >> Yeah. So you mentioned Clubhouse and it's something that I don't like. (laughs) So no offense to anyone who is behind creating new technologies for sure. But I think that Clubhouse from, if you take platforms like that, let's generalize, you take platforms like that and you think about the unintentional exclusion that those platforms involve, right? If you think about folks with disabilities who are not necessarily able to hear a conversation, right? Or you don't provide opportunities to like caption your conversations, right? That either intentionally or unintentionally excludes a group of folks, right? So I've seen Cloud Native, I've seen Cloud Native things happen on a Clubhouse, on a Twitter Spaces. I won't personally be involved in them until I know that it's a platform that is not exclusive. So I think that it's great that we're having new opportunities to engage with folks that are not necessarily, you've got people prefer the Slack and discord vibe, you've got people who prefer the text over phone calls, so to speak thing, right? You've got people who prefer phone calls. So maybe like, maybe Clubhouse, Twitter Spaces, insert new, I guess Disco is doing a thing too- >> They call it stages. Disco has stages, which is- >> Stages. They have stages. Okay. All right. So insert, Clubhouse clone here and- >> Kube House. We've got a Kube House come on in. >> Kube House. Kube House. >> Trivial (murmurs). >> So we've got great ways to engage there for people who prefer that type of engagement and something that is explicitly different from the I'm on a Zoom call all day kind of vibe enjoy yourselves, try to make it as engaging as possible, just realize what you may unintentionally be doing by creating a community that not everyone can be a part of. >> Yeah. Technical consequences. I mean, this is key language matters to how you get involved and how you support it. I mean, the accessibility piece, I never thought about that. If you can't listen, I mean, you can't there's no content there. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of the Cloud Native community, right? Thinking through accessibility, internationalization, localization, to make sure that our contributions are actually accessible, right? To folks who want to get involved and not just prioritizing, let's say the U.S. or our English speaking part of the world so. >> Awesome. Jasmine, what's your take? What can we do better in the world to make the diversity and inclusion not a conversation because when it's not a conversation, then it's solved. I mean, ultimately it's got a lot more work to do but you can't be exclusive. You got to be diverse more and more output happens. What's your take on this? >> Yeah. I feel like they'll always be work to do in this space because there's so many groups of people, right? That we have to take an account for. I think that thinking through inclusion in the onset of whatever you're doing is the best way to get ahead of it. There's so many different components of it and you want to make sure that you're making a space for everyone. I also think that making sure that you have a pipeline of a network of people that represent a good subset of the world is going to be very key for shaping any program or any sort of project that anyone does in the future. But I do think it's something that we have to consistently keep at the forefront of our mind always consider. It's great that it's in so many conversations right now. It really makes me happy especially being a mom with an eight year old girl who's into computer science as well. That there'll be better opportunities and hopefully more prevalent opportunities and representation for her by the time she grows up. So really, really great. >> Get her coding early, as I always say. Jasmine great to have you and Stephen as well. Good to see you. Final question. What do you hope people walk away with this year from KubeCon? What's the final kind of objective? Jasmine, we'll start with you. >> Wow. Final objective. I think that I would want people to walk away with a sense of community. I feel like the KubeCon CNCF world is a great place to get knowledge, but also an established sense of community not stopping at just the conference and taking part of the community, giving back, contributing would be a great thing for people to walk away with. >> Awesome. Stephen? >> I'm all about community as well. So I think that one of the fun things that we've been doing, is just engaging in different ways than we have normally across the kind of the KubeCon boundaries, right? So you take CNCF Twitch, you take some of the things that I can't mention yet, but are coming out you should see around and pose KubeCon week, the way that we're engaging with people is changing and it's needed to change because of how the world is right now. So I hope that to reinforce the community point, my favorite part of any conference is the hallway track. And I think I've mentioned this last time and we're trying our best. We're trying our best to create it. We've had lots of great feedback about, whether it be people playing among us on CNCF Twitch or hanging out on Slack silly early hours, just chatting it up. And are kind of like crafted hallway track. So I think that engage, don't be afraid to say hello. I know that it's new and scary sometimes and trust me, we've literally all been here. It's going to be okay, come in, have some fun, we're all pretty friendly. We're all pretty friendly and we know and understand that the only way to make this community survive and thrive is to bring on new contributors, is to get new perspectives and continue building awesome technology. So don't be afraid. >> I love it. You guys have a global diverse and knowledgeable and open community. Congratulations. Jasmine James, Stephen Augustus, co-chairs for KubeCon here on theCUBE breaking it down, I'm John Furrier for your host, thanks for watching. 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>> Announcer: From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

>> From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

(ethereal music) >> Welcome to the special Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of "The Cube" here in Palo Alto, California. We've got two great remote guests here having a conversation around security, security convergence with platforms around networking and security with cybersecurity at an all time high, the need for understanding how to manage the breaches how to understand them, prevent them, everything in between cybersecurity and data are the number one conversation happening in the world today. We got two great guests, we've got Nirav Shah, VP of products at Fortinet and Peter Newton's senior director of products at Fortinet. The product leaders in the hottest cybersecurity company. And guys, thanks for coming on this Cube Conversation. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, John. >> So last month or so I talked to John Madison about the Fortinet new release, FortiOS 7.0, as well as highlighting the convergence that's going on between the platforms around companies trying to consolidate and or manage or grow and build, converting networking and security together. Seeing that happening in real time, still doesn't change the underpinnings of how the internet works, and how these companies are structured. But the need for security is at an all time high. Talk about the impact to the customer. Do you guys have the keys to the kingdom here, product group? What is the killer product? What are customers doing? Give us the overview of why there's such a big need for the security platforms right now. >> Yeah, absolutely John. So if you see today's environment, we have seen working from anywhere it's become normal. And as part of that, we have seen so many different network edges. At the same time, they have different devices that they're using from anywhere. So what's important is as users have different devices, different users and applications that they're consuming from Cloud, we have to make sure that we provide security across the endpoint, across all network edges, and going to the Cloud compute. And for that kind of approach, you cannot have point products provide the visibility control and management. You need to have a comprehensive cybersecurity platform, which gives you security from that endpoint, to the edge, to the user, so that you have a simple but effective management and have a solid security in place to get that working from anywhere in a much more better user experience way. And that's exactly Fortinet describes as the security fabric platform. >> It's interesting not to kind of go on a tangent here, but to illustrate the point is, if you look at all the cyber security challenges that we're facing globally, especially here in the United States, the public private partnerships are increasing. We're seeing more public sector, commercial integration, the role of data. We've covered this on SiliconANGLE and many other cube interviews, especially with you guys. And there's all this kind of new approaches. Everyone's trying everything. They're buying every product that's out there, but now there's like overload. There's too much product. And that the obvious thing that's becoming clear, as cloud-scale, the evolution of this new edge environment. And so with that becomes the importance two trends that you guys are participating in. I want to get your thoughts on this because that's called SASE and SD-WAN. We know SD-WAN, but SASE stands for Secure Access Service Edge. That's I think Gartner made that term up or someone made that term up, but that's a new technology. And you've got SD-WAN, these are traditionally had been like edge for like branch offices. Now evolve now as pure network edges than a distributed computing environment. What's so important about these two topics. Nirav take us through the changes that are happening and why it's important for enterprises to get a handle on this >> Yeah John. So, as you said, SASE, Secured Access Services Edge. Really the foundation of that topic is the convergence of networking and security. And as you mentioned, Fortinet has been doing a lot of innovation in this area, right? Six years back, we pioneered the convergence of security and networking with security SD-WAN but what's happening now with the SASE is, as that working from anywhere continues to remain the dominant trend, users are looking for a Cloud-Delivered Security. And that's what Fortinet recently announced, where we can provide the most comprehensive Cloud-Delivered Security for remote users. For thin edge. You can still, anytime access from any device. To give you an example, now, our remote users, they are still at home or they can be branch of one user, but still have that always on threat protection with the consistent security given in the Cloud. So they don't have to go anymore from the branch or data center, but have a direct connectivity to the Cloud Security before they access SaaS application. That's what one of the SASE trend is. Second thing, John we are observing is users are now, as they are going back to the hybrid workforce, they are looking for a thin edge right? To your point of an edge, edge is still intelligent and a very important but there is an interesting architectural shift of, can I just use an intelligent networking there move my CapEx to OPEX and have security in Cloud? That unified security, unified policy is again becoming important. That's what SASE-- >> Okay, so I like this Cloud-Delivered Security. This is a hybrid workforce you're addressing with this marketplace, that's clear. Hybrid is a everywhere, hybrid cloud, hybrid workforce, hybrid events are coming. I mean, we love covering events physically but also now virtual. Everything's impacted by the word hybrid and Cloud. But talk about this thin edge. What do you mean by that? I mean I think thin edge, I think thin clients, the old trend. What is thin edge mean? >> Yeah, so there're different organizations are looking at the architecture in a different way. Some organizations are thinking about having a very simple branch where it is used for modern networking technologies, while security has been shifted to the Cloud deliver. What happens with this model is, now they are relying more into technologies like SD-WAN on edge to provide that intelligence steering, while everything in the security is being done in a Cloud compute way for both remote users and thin edge environment. Now the good news here is, they don't have to worry about the security patching, or any of those security capabilities. It is all done by Fortinet as they go and use the SaaS applications performance >> I want to come back and drill down on that but I want to get Peter in here in the Zero Trust equation because one of the things that comes up all the time with this edge discussion is network access. I mean, you go back to the old days of computing, you had edge log in, you'd come in, radius servers, all these things were happening, pretty simple cut paradigm. It's gotten so complicated now, Peter. So Zero Trust is a hot area. It's not only one of the things but it's a super important, what is Zero Trust these days? >> Zero Trust is indeed a very hot term because I think part of it is just it sounds great from a security standpoint, Zero Trust, you don't trust anyone, but it really comes down to a philosophical approach of how do you address the user's data applications that you want to protect? And the idea of Zero Trust and really what's driving it is the fact that as we've been talking, people are working remotely. The perimeter of the organization has dissolved. And so you no longer can afford to have a trusted internal zone and an untrusted external zone. Everything has to be "Zero Trust." So this means that you need to be authenticating and verifying users and devices on a repeat and regular basis, and you want to when you're bringing them on and giving them access to assets and applications, you want to do that with as granular of control as possible. So the users and devices have access to what they need, but no more. And that's kind of the basic tenets of Zero Trust. And that's what, it's really about prioritizing the applications and data, as opposed to just looking at, am I bringing someone into my network. >> God, the concept of Zero Trust, obviously hot. What's the difference between Zero Trust Access and Zero Trust Network Access, or as people say ZTA versus ZTNA? I mean, is there a nuance there? I mean, what's the difference between the two? >> That's actually a really good question because they both have the Zero Trust in the name. ZTNA is actually a specific term that a Gardner created or other analyst I should say, created 10 years ago. And this refers specifically to controlling application to controlling access to applications. whereas Zero Trust, overall Zero Trust access deals with both users and devices coming on to networks, how are you connecting them on? What kind of access are you giving them on the network? ZTNA is specifically how are you bringing users and connecting them to applications? Whether those applications are on premise or in the Cloud. >> So what the NA is more like the traditional old VPN model connecting users from home or whatever. Just connecting across the network with user to app. Is that right? >> That's actually a really good insight, but ironically the VPN clinical benefits of this are actually an outgrowth of the ZTNA model because ZTA doesn't differentiate between when you're on network or off network. It creates a secure tunnel automatically no matter where the user is, but VPN is all just about creating a secure tunnel when you're remote. ZTNA just does that automatically. So it's a lot easier, a lot simpler. You get a hundred percent compliance and then you also have that same secure tunnel even when you're "on a safe network" because with Zero Trust, you don't trust anything. So yes it really is leading to the evolution of VPN connectivity. >> So Nirav I want to get back to you on tie that circle back to what we were talking about around hybrid. So everyone says everything's moving to the Cloud. That's what people think. And Cloud ops is essentially what hybrid is. So connect the dots here between the zero trust, zero trust A and NA with the move to the hybrid cloud model. How does that, how does it, what's the difference between the two? Where's the connection? What's the relevance for your customers and the marketplace? >> Yeah, I think that again goes back to that SASE framework where ZTNA plays a huge role because John, we talked about when users are working from anywhere in this hybrid workforce, one of the important thing is to not give them this implicit trust right? To the applications, enabling the explicit trust is very important. And that is what ZTNA does. And the interesting thing about Fortinet is we provide all of this part of FortiOS and users can deploy anywhere. So as they are going to the Cloud-Delivered Security, they can enable ZTNA there so that we make sure this user at what time, which application they're accessing and should we give them that access or not. So great way to have ZTNA, SASE, everything in one unified policy and provide that anytime access for any device with a trusting place. >> Okay, real quick question to you is, what's the difference between SASE, Secure Access Service Edge, and SD-WAN? Real quick. >> Yeah, so SD-WAN is one of the core foundation element of SASE, right? So far we talked about the Cloud-Delivered Security, which is all important part of the security of the service. SASE is another element, which is a networking and a service where SD-WAN plays a foundation role. And John that's where I was saying earlier that the intelligent edge modern technology that SD-WAN provides is absolutely necessary for a successful SASE deployment, right? If users who are sitting anywhere, if they can't get the right application steering, before they provide the Cloud-Delivered Security, then they are not going to get the user experience. So having the right SD-WAN foundation in that edge, working in tandem with the Cloud-Delivered Security makes a win-win situation for both networking and security teams. >> So Peter, I want to talk to you. Last night I was on a chat on the Clubhouse app with some cybersecurity folks and they don't talk in terms of "I got ZTNA and I got some SASE and SD-WEN, they're talking mostly about just holistically their environment. So could you just clarify the difference 'cause this can be confusing between Zero Trust Network Access ZTNA versus SASE because it's kind of the same thing, but I know it's nuance, but, is there a difference there? People get confused by this when I hear people talking 'cause like they just throw jargon around and they say, "Oh, with Zero Trust we're good. What does that even mean? >> Yeah, we get a lot of that when talking with customers because the two technologies are so complimentary and similar, they're both dealing with security for remote workers. However sassy is really dealing with that kind of firewall in the Cloud type service, where the remote user gets the experience and protection of being behind a firewall, ZTNA is about controlling the application and giving them that secure tunnel to the application. So they're different things one's kind of that firewall and service, security and service, even networking in a service. But ZTNA is really about, how do I have the policies no matter where our user is, to give them access to specific applications and then give them a secure tunnel to that application? So very complimentary, but again, they are separate things. >> What's the landscape out there with competitive because has there products, I mean you guys are product folks. You'll get the product question. Is it all kind of in one thing, is this bundled in? Do you guys have a unique solution? Some people have it, they don't. What's the marketplace look like from a product standpoint? >> Yeah. So John, that starts back to the platform that we talked about, right? Fortinet always believes in not to develop a point product, but doing organic development which is part of a broader platform. So when we look at the thing like SASE, which required a really enterprise grade networking and security stack, Fortinet has organically developed them SD-WAN, we are a leading vendor, for the Gartner magic quadrant leader there, network firewall, including whether they deployed on Cloud, on-prem or a segmentation. We are a leader there. So when you combine both of them and ZTNA is part of it, there is only handful of vendor you will see in the industry who can provide the consistent security, networking, and security together and have that better user experience for the single management. So clearly there's a lot of buzz John, about a lot of vendors talk about it. But when you go to the details and see this kind of unified policy of networking and security, Fortinet is emerging as a leader. >> Well I always like talking the experts like you guys on this topic. And we get into the conversations around the importance under the hood. SASE, SD-WEN, we've been covering that for a long time. And now with Zero Trust becoming such a prominent architectural feature in Cloud and hybrid, super important under the hood. At the end of the day though, I got to ask the customers question, which is, "what's in it for me? "I care about breaches. "I don't want to be breached. "The government's not helping me over the top. "I got to defend myself. "I have to put resources in place, it's expensive, "and nevermind if I get breached." The criticality of that alone, is a risk management discussion. These are huge table. These are huge stakes and the stakes are high. So what I care about is are you going to stop the breaches? I need the best security in town. What do you say to that? >> Yeah this goes back to the beginning. We talked about consistent certified security, right John. So yes a SASE model is interesting. Customers are going to move to Cloud, but it's going to be a journey. Customers are not going Cloud first day one. They are going to take a hybrid approach where security is required in a segment, in an edge and on the Cloud. And that's where having a solid security in place is a number one requirement. And when you look at the history of Fortinet, over the last 20 years, how we have done, with our FortiGuard Labs, our threat intelligence and ability for us to protect over 450,000 customers, that's a big achievement. And for us to continue to provide that security but more importantly, continue to go out, and do a third-party certification with many organization to make sure no matter where customers are deploying security, it is that same enterprise grade security deployment. And that's very important that we talk to our users to make sure they validate that. >> Peter would weigh in on this. Customers don't want any breaches. How do you help them with the best security? What's your take on that? >> Well, to kind of reiterate what Nirav said earlier, we really believe that security is a team sport. And you do need best in class products at each individual element, but more importantly you need those products we talking together. So the fact that we have industry leading firewalls, the fact that we have industry-leading SD-WAN, we've got industry leading products to cover the entire gamut of the end point all the way email application, Cloud, all these products while it's important that they're, third-party validated as Nirav was mentioning, it's more important that they actually talk together. They're integrated and provide automated actions. Today's cyber security moves so fast. You need that team approach to be able to protect and stop those breaches. >> Well, you guys have a great enterprise grade solution. I got to say, I've been covering you guys for many years now and you guys have been upfront, out front on the data aspect of it with FortiGuards. And I think people are starting to realize now that data is the key, value proposition is not a secret anymore. Used to be kind of known for the people inside the ropes. So congratulations. I do know that there's a lot action happening. I want to give you guys a chance to at the end of this conversation now to just put a plug in Fortinet because there's more people coming into the workforce now. Post pandemic, young people with computer science degrees and other degrees that want to go into career with cybersecurity, could you guys share both your perspective on for the young people watching or people re-skilling, what opportunities there are from a coding standpoint, and or from say an analyst perspective. What are some of the hot openings? 'cause there are thousands and thousands of jobs give a quick plug for Fortinet and what openings you guys might have. >> Well, certainly in the cyber industry, one of the major trends we have is a work place shortage. There are not enough trained professionals who know about cybersecurity. So for those who are interested in retooling or starting their career, cybersecurity is an ongoing field. It's going to be around for a long time. I highly encourage those interested, come take a look at Fortinet. We offer free training. So you can start from knowing nothing to becoming certified up to a security architect level, and all those, all that training is now available for free. So it's a great time to star, great time to come into the industry. The industry needs you >> Any particularly areas, Peter you see that's like really jumping off the page. >> Well, it's hybrid, knowing Cloud, knowing on-prem, knowing the traffic, knowing the data on the applications, there's just so much to do. >> You're the head of product, you've got all, probably a ton of openings but seriously young people trying to figure out where to jump in, what are the hot areas? Where can people dig in and get retrained and or find their career? >> Yeah, no, I think to reiterate what Peter said, right? The program that Fortinet has built, LSE one, two, three which is free available, is a great foundation. Because that actually goes into the detail of many topics we touched upon. Even though we are talking about SD-WAN, SASE, ZTNA, fundamentally these are the networking and security technologies to make sure users are able to do the right work in the user experience. And that will be really helpful to the young people who are looking to learn more and go into this area. So highly encouraged to take those training, reach out to us. We are there to provide any mentorship, anything that is required to help them in that journey. >> Anything jump off the page in terms of areas that you think are super hot, that are in need. >> Certainly there's convergence of networking and security. There is a growing need of how and what is Zero Trust is? and how the security is applied everywhere. Definitely that's a topic of mine for a lot of our customers, and that's an area, it's a good thing to gain more knowledge and utilize it. >> Nirav and Peter, thank you for coming on. You guys are both experts and the leaders at Fortinet, the product team. The need for security platform is an all time high consolidating tools into a platform. More tools are needed and there's new tools coming. So I'm expecting to have more great conversations as the world evolves. Certainly the edge is super important. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, Cube Conversation on security here in the Palo Alto studios. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching. (ethereal music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> As you know by now, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, is stepping aside from his CEO role and AWS CEO, Andy Jassy, is being promoted to head all of Amazon. Bezos, of course, is going to remain executive chairman. Now, 15 years ago, next month, Amazon launched it's simple storage service, which was the first modern cloud offering. And the man who wrote the business plan for AWS, was Andy Jassy, and he's navigated the meteoric rise and disruption that has seen AWS grow into a $45 billion company that draws off the vast majority of Amazon's operating profits. No one in the media has covered Jassy more intimately and closely than John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And John joins us today to help us understand on theCUBE this move and what we can expect from Jassy in his new role, and importantly what it means for AWS. John, thanks for taking the time to speak with us. >> Hey, great day. Great to see you as always, we've done a lot of interviews together over the years and we're on our 11th year with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE. But I got to be excited too, that we're simulcasters on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. Love Clubhouse but not since the, in December. It's awesome. It's like Cube radio. It's like, so this is a Cube talk. So we opened up a Clubhouse room while we're filming this. We'll do more live hits in studio and syndicate the Clubhouse and then take questions after. This is a huge digital transformation moment. I'm part of the digital transformation club on Clubhouse which has almost 5,000 followers at the moment and also has like 500 members. So if you're not on Clubhouse, yet, if you have an iPhone go check it out and join the digital transformation club. Android users you'll have to wait until that app is done but it's really a great club. And Jeremiah Owyang is also doing a lot of stuff on digital transformation. >> Or you can just buy an iPhone and get in. >> Yeah, that's what people are doing. I can see all the influences are on there but to me, the digital transformation, it's always been kind of a cliche, the consumerization of IT, information technology. This has been the boring world of the enterprise over the past, 20 years ago. Enterprise right now is super hot because there's no distinction between enterprise and society. And that's clearly the, because of the rise of cloud computing and the rise of Amazon Web Services which was a side project at AWS, at Amazon that Andy Jassy did. And it wasn't really pleasant at the beginning. It was failed. It failed a lot and it wasn't as successful as people thought in the early days. And I have a lot of stories with Andy that he told me a lot of the inside baseball and we'll share that here today. But we started covering Amazon since the beginning. I was as an entrepreneur. I used it when it came out and a huge fan of them as a company because they just got a superior product and they have always had been but it was very misunderstood from the beginning. And now everyone's calling it the most important thing. And Andy now is becoming Andy Jassy, the most important executive in the world. >> So let's get it to the, I mean, look at, you said to me over holidays, you thought this might have something like this could happen. And you said, Jassy is probably in line to get this. So, tell us, what can you tell us about Jassy? Why is he qualified for this job? What do you think he brings to the table? >> Well, the thing that I know about Amazon everyone's been following the Amazon news is, Jeff Bezos has a lot of personal turmoil. They had his marriage fail. They had some issues with the smear campaigns and all this stuff going on, the run-ins with Donald Trump, he bought the Washington post. He's got a lot of other endeavors outside of Amazon cause he's the second richest man in the world competing with Elon Musk at Space X versus Blue Origin. So the guy's a billionaire. So Amazon is his baby and he's been running it as best he could. He's got an executive team committee they called the S team. He's been grooming people in the company and that's just been his mode. And the rise of AWS and the business performance that we've been documenting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, it's just been absolutely changing the game on Amazon as a company. So clearly Amazon Web Services become a driving force of the new Amazon that's emerging. And obviously they've got all their retail business and they got the gaming challenges and they got the studios and the other diversified stuff. So Jassy is just, he's just one of those guys. He's just been an Amazonian from day one. He came out of Harvard business school, drove across the country, very similar story to Jeff Bezos. He did that in 1997 and him and Jeff had been collaborating and Jeff tapped him to be his shadow, they call it, which is basically technical assistance and an heir apparent and groomed him. And then that's how it is. Jassy is not a climber as they call it in corporate America. He's not a person who is looking for a political gain. He's not a territory taker, but he's a micromanager. He loves details and he likes to create customer value. And that's his focus. So he's not a grandstander. In fact, he's been very low profile. Early days when we started meeting with him, he wouldn't meet with press regularly because they weren't writing the right stories. And everyone is, he didn't know he was misunderstood. So that's classic Amazon. >> So, he gave us the time, I think it was 2014 or 15 and he told us a story back then, John, you might want to share it as to how AWS got started. Why, what was the main spring Amazon's tech wasn't working that great? And Bezos said to Jassy, going to go figure out why and maybe explain how AWS was born. >> Yeah, we had, in fact, we were the first ones to get access to do his first public profile. If you go to the Google and search Andy Jassy, the trillion dollar baby, we had a post, we put out the story of AWS, Andy Jassy's trillion dollar baby. This was in early, this was January 2015, six years ago. And, we back then, we posited that this would be a trillion dollar total addressable market. Okay, people thought we were crazy but we wrote a story and he gave us a very intimate access. We did a full drill down on him and the person, the story of Amazon and that laid out essentially the beginning of the rise of AWS and Andy Jassy. So that's a good story to check out but really the key here is, is that he's always been relentless and competitive on creating value in what they call raising the bar outside Amazon. That's a term that they use. They also have another leadership principle called working backwards, which is like, go to the customer and work backwards from the customer in a very Steve Job's kind of way. And that's been kind of Jobs mentality as well at Apple that made them successful work backwards from the customer and make things easier. And that was Apple. Amazon, their philosophy was work backwards from the customer and Jassy specifically would say it many times and eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That was a key principle of what they were doing. So that was a key thesis of their entire business model. And that's the Amazonian way. Faster, cheaper, ship it faster, make it less expensive and higher value. While when you apply the Amazon shipping concept to cloud computing, it was completely disrupted. They were shipping code and services faster and that became their innovation strategy. More announcements every year, they out announced their competition by huge margin. They introduced new services faster and they're less expensive some say, but in the aggregate, they make more money but that's kind of a key thing. >> Well, when you, I was been listening to the TV today and there was a debate on whether or not, this support tends that they'll actually split the company into two. To me, I think it's just the opposite. I think it's less likely. I mean, if you think about Amazon getting into grocery or healthcare, eventually financial services or other industries and the IOT opportunity to me, what they do, John, is they bring in together the cloud, data and AI and they go attack these new industries. I would think Jassy of all people would want to keep this thing together now whether or not the government allows them to do that. But what are your thoughts? I mean, you've asked Andy this before in your personal interviews about splitting the company. What are your thoughts? >> Well, Jon Fortt at CNBC always asked the same question every year. It's almost like the standard question. I kind of laugh and I ask it now too because I liked Jon Fortt. I think he's an awesome dude. And I'll, it's just a tongue in cheek, Jassy. He won't answer the question. Amazon, Bezos and Jassy have one thing in common. They're really good at not answering questions. So if you ask the same question. They'll just say, nothing's ever, never say never, that's his classic answer to everything. Never say never. And he's always said that to you. (chuckles) Some say, he's, flip-flopped on things but he's really customer driven. For example, he said at one point, no one should ever build a data center. Okay, that was a principle. And then they come out and they have now a hybrid strategy. And I called them out on that and said, hey, what, are you flip-flopping? You said at some point, no one should have a data center. He's like, well, we looked at it differently and what we meant was is that, it should all be cloud native. Okay. So that's kind of revision, but he's cool with that. He says, hey, we'll revise based on what customers are doing. VMware working with Amazon that no one ever thought that would happen. Okay. So, VMware has some techies, Raghu, for instance, over there, super top notch. He worked with Jassy, directly in his team Sanjay Poonen when they went to business school together, they cut a deal. And now Amazon essentially saved VMware, in my opinion. And Pat Gelsinger drove that deal. Now, Pat Gelsinger, CEO, Intel, and Pat told me that directly in candid conversation off theCUBE, he said, hey, we have to make a decision either we're going to be in cloud or we're not going to be in cloud, we will partner. And I'll see, he was Intel. He understood the Intel inside mentality. So that's good for VMware. So Jassy does these kinds of deals. He's not afraid he's got a good stomach for business and a relentless competitor. >> So, how do you think as you mentioned Jassy is a micromanager. He gets deep into the technology. Anybody who's seen his two hour, three hour keynotes. No, he has a really fine grasp of the technology across the entire stack. How do you think John, he will approach things like antitrust, the big tech lash of the unionization of the workforce at Amazon? How do you think Jassy will approach that? >> Well, I think one of the things that emerges Jassy, first of all, he's a huge sports fan. And many people don't know that but he's also progressive person. He's very progressive politically. He's been on the record and off the record saying things like, obviously, literacy has been big on, he's been on basically unrepresented minorities, pushing for that, and certainly cloud computing in tech, women in tech, he's been a big proponent. He's been a big supporter of Teresa Carlson. Who's been rising star at Amazon. People don't know who Teresa Carlson is and they should check out her. She's become one of the biggest leaders inside Amazon she's turned around public sector from the beginning. She ran that business, she's a global star. He's been a great leader and he's been getting, forget he's a micromanager, he's on top of the details. I mean, the word is, and nothing gets approved without Andy, Andy seeing it. But he's been progressive. He's been an Amazon original as they call it internally. He's progressive, he's got the business acumen but he's perfect for this pragmatic conversation that needs to happen. And again, because he's so technically strong having a CEO that's that proficient is going to give Amazon an advantage when they have to go in and change how DC works, for instance, or how the government geopolitical landscape works, because Amazon is now a global company with regions all over the place. So, I think he's pragmatic, he's open to listening and changing. I think that's a huge quality >> Well, when you think of this, just to set the context here for those who may not know, I mean, Amazon started as I said back in 2006 in March with simple storage service that later that year they announced EC2 which is their compute platform. And that was the majority of their business, is still a very large portion of their business but Amazon, our estimates are that in 2020, Amazon did 45 billion, 45.4 billion in revenue. That's actually an Amazon reported number. And just to give you a context, Azure about 26 billion GCP, Google about 6 billion. So you're talking about an industry that Amazon created. That's now $78 billion and Amazon at 45 billion. John they're growing at 30% annually. So it's just a massive growth engine. And then another story Jassy told us, is they, he and Jeff and the team talked early on about whether or not they should just sort of do an experiment, do a little POC, dip their toe in and they decided to go for it. Let's go big or go home as Michael Dell has said to us many times, I mean, pretty astounding. >> Yeah. One of the things about Jassy that people should know about, I think there's some compelling relative to the newest ascension to the CEO of Amazon, is that he's not afraid to do new things. For instance, I'll give you an example. The Amazon Web Services re-invent their annual conference grew to being thousands and thousands of people. And they would have a traditional after party. They called a replay, they'd have a band like every tech conference and their conference became so big that essentially, it was like setting up a live concert. So they were spending millions of dollars to set up basically a one night concert and they'd bring in great, great artists. So he said, hey, what's been all this cash? Why don't we just have a festival? So they did a thing called Intersect. They got LA involved from creatives and they basically built a weekend festival in the back end of re-invent. This was when real life was, before COVID and they turned into an opportunity because that's the way they think. They like to look at the resources, hey, we're already all in on this, why don't we just keep it for the weekend and charge some tickets and have a good time. He's not afraid to take chances on the product side. He'll go in and take a chance on a new market. That comes from directly from Bezos. They try stuff. They don't mind failing but they put a tight leash on measurement. They work backwards from the customer and they are not afraid to take chances. So, that's going to board well for him as he tries to figure out how Amazon navigates the contention on the political side when they get challenged for their dominance. And I think he's going to have to apply that pragmatic experimentation to new business models. >> So John I want you to take on AWS. I mean, despite the large numbers, I talked about 30% growth, Azure is growing at over 50% a year, GCP at 83%. So despite the large numbers and big growth the growth rates are slowing. Everybody knows that, we've reported it extensively. So the incoming CEO of Amazon Web Services has a TAM expansion challenge. And at some point they've got to decide, okay, how do we keep this growth engine? So, do you have any thoughts as to who might be the next CEO and what are some of their challenges as you see it? >> Well, Amazon is a real product centric company. So it's going to be very interesting to see who they go with here. Obviously they've been grooming a lot of people. There's been some turnover. You had some really strong executives recently leave, Jeff Wilkes, who was the CEO of the retail business. He retired a couple of months ago, formerly announced I think recently, he was probably in line. You had Mike Clayville, is now the chief revenue officer of Stripe. He ran all commercial business, Teresa Carlson stepped up to his role as well as running public sector. Again, she got more power. You have Matt Garman who ran the EC2 business, Stanford grad, great guy, super strong on the product side. He's now running all commercial sales and marketing. And he's also on the, was on Bezos' S team, that's the executive kind of team. Peter DeSantis is also on that S team. He runs all infrastructure. He took over for James Hamilton, who was the genius behind all the data center work that they've done and all the chip design stuff that they've innovated on. So there's so much technical innovation going on. I think you still going to see a leadership probably come from, I would say Matt Garman, in my opinion is the lead dog at this point, he's the lead horse. You could have an outside person come in depending upon how, who might be available. And that would probably come from an Andy Jassy network because he's a real fierce competitor but he's also a loyalist and he likes trust. So if someone comes in from the outside, it's going to be someone maybe he trusts. And then the other wildcards are like Teresa Carlson. Like I said, she is a great woman in tech who's done amazing work. I've profiled her many times. We've interviewed her many times. She took that public sector business with Amazon and changed the game completely. Outside the Jedi contract, she was in competitive for, had the big Trump showdown with the Jedi, with the department of defense. Had the CIA cloud. Amazon set the standard on public sector and that's directly the result of Teresa Carlson. But she's in the field, she's not a product person, she's kind of running that group. So Amazon has that product field kind of structure. So we'll see how they handle that. But those are the top three I think are going to be in line. >> So the obvious question that people always ask and it is a big change like this is, okay, in this case, what is Jassy going to bring in? And what's going to change? Maybe the flip side question is somewhat more interesting. What's not going to change in your view? Jassy has been there since nearly the beginning. What are some of the fundamental tenets that he's, that are fossilized, that won't change, do you think? >> I think he's, I think what's not going to change is Amazon, is going to continue to grow and develop their platform business and enable more SaaS players. That's a little bit different than what Microsoft's doing. They're more SaaS oriented, Office 365 is becoming their biggest application in terms of revenue on Microsoft side. So Amazon is going to still have to compete and enable more ecosystem partners. I think what's not going to change is that Bezos is still going to be in charge because executive chairman is just a code word for "not an active CEO." So in the corporate governance world when you have an executive chairman, that's essentially the person still in charge. And so he'll be in charge, will still be the boss of Andy Jassy and Jassy will be running all of Amazon. So I think that's going to be a little bit the same, but Jassy is going to be more in charge. I think you'll see a team change over, whether you're going to see some new management come in, Andy's management team will expand, I think Amazon will stay the same, Amazon Web Services. >> So John, last night, I was just making some notes about notable transitions in the history of the tech business, Gerstner to Palmisano, Gates to Ballmer, and then Ballmer to Nadella. One that you were close to, David Packard to John Young and then John Young to Lew Platt at the old company. Ellison to Safra and Mark, Jobs to Cook. We talked about Larry Page to Sundar Pichai. So how do you see this? And you've talked to, I remember when you interviewed John Chambers, he said, there is no rite of passage, East coast mini-computer companies, Edson de Castro, Ken Olsen, An Wang. These were executives who wouldn't let go. So it's of interesting to juxtapose that with the modern day executive. How do you see this fitting in to some of those epic transitions that I just mentioned? >> I think a lot of people are surprised at Jeff Bezos', even stepping down. I think he's just been such the face of Amazon. I think some of the poll numbers that people are doing on Twitter, people don't think it's going to make a big difference because he's kind of been that, leader hand on the wheel, but it's been its own ship now, kind of. And so depending on who's at the helm, it will be different. I think the Amazon choice of Andy wasn't obvious. And I think a lot of people were asking the question who was Andy Jassy and that's why we're doing this. And we're going to be doing more features on the Andy Jassy. We got a tons, tons of content that we've we've had shipped, original content with them. We'll share more of those key soundbites and who he is. I think a lot of people scratching their head like, why Andy Jassy? It's not obvious to the outsiders who don't know cloud computing. If you're in the competing business, in the digital transformation side, everyone knows about Amazon Web Services. Has been the most successful company, in my opinion, since I could remember at many levels just the way they've completely dominated the business and how they change others to be dominant. So, I mean, they've made Microsoft change, it made Google change and even then he's a leader that accepts conversations. Other companies, their CEOs hide behind their PR wall and they don't talk to people. They won't come on Clubhouse. They won't talk to the press. They hide behind their PR and they feed them, the media. Jassy is not afraid to talk to reporters. He's not afraid to talk to people, but he doesn't like people who don't know what they're talking about. So he doesn't suffer fools. So, you got to have your shit together to talk to Jassy. That's really the way it is. And that's, and he'll give you mind share, like he'll answer any question except for the ones that are too tough for him to answer. Like, are you, is facial recognition bad or good? Are you going to spin out AWS? I mean these are the hard questions and he's got a great team. He's got Jay Carney, former Obama press secretary working for him. He's been a great leader. So I'm really bullish on, is a good choice. >> We're going to jump into the Clubhouse here and open it up shortly. John, the last question for you is competition. Amazon as a company and even Jassy specifically I always talk about how they don't really focus on the competition, they focus on the customer but we know that just observing these folks Bezos is very competitive individual. Jassy, I mean, you know him better than I, very competitive individual. So, and he's, Jassy has been known to call out Oracle. Of course it was in response to Larry Ellison's jabs at Amazon regarding database. But, but how do you see that? Do you see that changing at all? I mean, will Amazon get more publicly competitive or they stick to their knitting, you think? >> You know this is going to sound kind of a weird analogy. And I know there's a lot of hero worshiping on Elon Musk but Elon Musk and Andy Jassy have a lot of similarities in the sense of their brilliance. They got both a brilliant people, different kinds of backgrounds. Obviously, they're running different things. They both are builders, right? If you were listening to Elon Musk on Clubhouse the other night, what was really striking was not only the magic of how it was all orchestrated and what he did and how he interviewed Robin Hood. He basically is about building stuff. And he was asked questions like, what advice do you give startups? He's like, if you need advice you shouldn't be doing startups. That's the kind of mentality that Jassy has, which is, it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart, but Elon Musk is a builder. Jassy builds, he likes to build stuff, right? And so you look at all the things that he's done with AWS, it's been about enabling people to be successful with the tools that they need, adding more services, creating things that are lower price point. If you're an entrepreneur and you're over the age of 30, you know about AWS because you know what, it's cheaper to start a business on Amazon Web Services than buying servers and everyone knows that. If you're under the age of 25, you might not know 50 grand to a hundred thousand just to start something. Today you get your credit card down, you're up and running and you can get Clubhouses up and running all day long. So the next Clubhouse will be on Amazon or a cloud technology. And that's because of Andy Jassy right? So this is a significant executive and he continue, will bring that mindset of building. So, I think the digital transformation, we're in the digital engine club, we're going to see a complete revolution of a new generation. And I think having a new leader like Andy Jassy will enable in my opinion next generation talent, whether that's media and technology convergence, media technology and art convergence and the fact that he digs music, he digs sports, he digs tech, he digs media, it's going to be very interesting to see, I think he's well-poised to be, and he's soft-spoken, he doesn't want the glamorous press. He doesn't want the puff pieces. He just wants to do what he does and he puts his game do the talking. >> Talking about advice at startups. Just a quick aside. I remember, John, you and I when we were interviewing Scott McNealy former CEO of Sun Microsystems. And you asked him advice for startups. He said, move out of California. It's kind of tongue in cheek. I heard this morning that there's a proposal to tax the multi-billionaires of 1% annually not just the one-time tax. And so Jeff Bezos of course, has a ranch in Texas, no tax there, but places all over. >> You see I don't know. >> But I don't see Amazon leaving Seattle anytime soon, nor Jassy. >> Jeremiah Owyang did a Clubhouse on California. And the basic sentiment is that, it's California is not going away. I mean, come on. People got to just get real. I think it's a fad. Yeah. This has benefits with remote working, no doubt, but people will stay here in California, the network affects beautiful. I think Silicon Valley is going to continue to be relevant. It's just going to syndicate differently. And I think other hubs like Seattle and around the world will be integrated through remote work and I think it's going to be much more of a democratizing effect, not a win lose. So that to me is a huge shift. And look at Amazon, look at Amazon and Microsoft. It's the cloud cities, so people call Seattle. You've got Google down here and they're making waves but still, all good stuff. >> Well John, thanks so much. Let's let's wrap and let's jump into the Clubhouse and hear from others. Thanks so much for coming on, back on theCUBE. And many times we, you and I've done this really. It was a pleasure having you. Thanks for your perspectives. And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft ambient music)