>> (Narrator) The CUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding by Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Fira Barcelona. It's theCUBE live at MWC23 our third day of coverage of this great, huge event continues. Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here. We've got Dell and Dish here, we are going to be talking about what they're doing together. Andy Sheahen joins as global director of Telecom Cloud Core and Next Gen Ops at Dell. And Marc Rouanne, one of our alumni is back, EVP and Chief Network Officer at Dish Wireless. Welcome guys. >> Great to be here. >> (Both) Thank you. >> (Lisa) Great to have you. Mark, talk to us about what's going on at Dish wireless. Give us the update. >> Yeah so we've built a network from scratch in the US, that covered the US, we use a cloud base Cloud native, so from the bottom of the tower all the way to the internet uses cloud distributed cloud, emits it, so there are a lot of things about that. But it's unique, and now it's working, so we're starting to play with it and that's pretty cool. >> What's some of the proof points, proof in the pudding? >> Well, for us, first of all it was to do basic voice and data on a smartphone and for me the success would that you won't see the difference for a smartphone. That's base line. the next step is bringing this to the enterprise for their use case. So we've covered- now we have services for smartphones. We use our brand, Boost brand, and we are distributing that across the US. But as I said, the real good stuff is when you start to making you know the machines and all the data and the applications for the enterprise. >> Andy, how is Dell a facilitator of what Marc just described and the use cases and what their able to deliver? >> We're providing a number of the servers that are being used out in their radio access network. The virtual DU servers, we're also providing some bare metal orchestration capabilities to help automate the process of deploying all these hundreds and thousands of nodes out in the field. Both of these, the servers and the bare metal orchestra product are things that we developed in concert with Dish, working together to understand the way, the best way to automate, based on the tooling their using in other parts of their network, and we've been with you guys since day one, really. >> (Marc) Absolutely, yeah. >> Making each others solutions better the whole way. >> Marc, why Dell? >> So, the way the networks work is you have a cloud, and you have a distributed edge you need someone who understands the diversity of the edge in order to bring the cloud software to the edge, and Dell is the best there, you know, you can, we can ask them to mix and match accelerators, processors memory, it's very diverse distributed edge. We are building twenty thousands sides so you imagine the size and the complexity and Dell was the right partner for that. >> (Andy) Thank you. >> So you mentioned addressing enterprise leads, which is interesting because there's nothing that would prevent you from going after consumer wireless technically, right but it sounds like you have taken a look at the market and said "we're going to go after this segment of the market." >> (Marc) Yeah. >> At least for now. Are there significant differences between what an enterprise expects from a 5G network than, verses a consumer? >> Yeah. >> (Dave) They have higher expectations, maybe, number one I guess is, if my bill is 150 dollars a month I can have certain levels of expectations whereas a large enterprise the may be making a much more significant investment, are their expectations greater? >> (Marc) Yeah. >> Do you have a higher bar to get over? >> So first, I mean first we use our network for consumers, but for us it's an enterprise. That's the consumer segment, an enterprise. So we expose the network like we would to a car manufacturer, or to a distributor of goods of food and beverage. But what you expect when you are an enterprise, you expect, manage your services. You expect to control the goodness of your services, and for this you need to observe what's happening. Are you delivering the right service? What is the feedback from the enterprise users, and that's what we call the observability. We have a data centric network, so our enterprises are saying "Yeah connecting is enough, but show us how it works, and show us how we can learn from the data, improve, improve, and become more competitive." That's the big difference. >> So what you say Marc, are some of the outcomes you achieved working with Dell? TCO, ROI, CapX, OpX, what are some of the outcomes so far, that you've been able to accomplish? >> Yeah, so obviously we don't share our numbers, but we're very competitive. Both on the CapX and the OpX. And the second thing is that we are much faster in terms of innovation, you know one of the things that Telecorp would not do, was to tap into the IT industry. So we access to the silicon and we have access to the software and at a scale that none of the Telecorp could ever do and for us it's like "wow" and it's a very powerful industry and we've been driving the consist- it's a bit technical but all the silicone, the accelerators, the processors, the GPU, the TPUs and it's like wow. It's really a transformation. >> Andy, is there anything anagallis that you've dealt with in the past to the situation where you have this true core edge, environment where you have to instrument the devices that you provide to give that level of observation or observability, whatever the new word is, that we've invented for that. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I mean has there, is there anything- >> Yeah absolutely. >> Is this unprecedented? >> No, no not at all. I mean Dell's been really working at the edge since before the edge was called the edge right, we've been selling, our hardware and infrastructure out to retail shops, branch office locations, you know just smaller form factors outside of data centers for a very long time and so that's sort of the consistency from what we've been doing for 30 years to now the difference is the volume, the different number of permutations as Marc was saying. The different type of accelerator cards, the different SKUS of different server types, the sheer volume of nodes that you have in a nationwide wireless network. So the volumes are much different, the amount of data is much different, but the process is really the same. It's about having the infrastructure in the right place at the right time and being able to understand if it's working well or if it's not and it's not just about a red light or a green light but healthy and unhealthy conditions and predicting when the red lights going to come on. And we've been doing that for a while it's just a different scale, and a different level of complexity when you're trying to piece together all these different components from different vendors. >> So we talk a lot about ecosystem, and sometimes because of the desire to talk about the outcomes and what the end users, customers, really care about sometimes we will stop at the layer where say a Dell lives, and we'll see that as the sum total of the component when really, when you talk about a server that Dish is using that in and of itself is an ecosystem >> Yep, yeah >> (Dave) or there's an ecosystem behind it you just mentioned it, the kinds of components and the choices that you make when you optimize these devices determine how much value Dish, >> (Andy) Absolutely. >> Can get out of that. How deep are you on that hardware? I'm a knuckle dragging hardware guy. >> Deep, very deep, I mean just the number of permutations that were working through with Dish and other operators as well, different accelerator cards that we talked about, different techniques for timing obviously there's different SKUs with the silicon itself, different chip sets, different chips from different providers, all those things have to come together, and we build the basic foundation and then we also started working with our cloud partners Red Hat, Wind River, all these guys, VM Ware, of course and that's the next layer up, so you've got all the different hardware components, you've got the extraction layer, with your virtualization layer and or ubernetise layer and all of that stuff together has to be managed compatibility matrices that get very deep and very big, very quickly and that's really the foundational challenge we think of open ran is thinking all these different pieces are going to fit together and not just work today but work everyday as everything gets updated much more frequently than in the legacy world. >> So you care about those things, so we don't have to. >> That's right. >> That's the beauty of it. >> Yes. >> Well thank you. (laughter) >> You're welcome. >> I want to understand, you know some of the things that we've been talking about, every company is a data company, regardless of whether it's telco, it's a retailer, if it's my bank, it's my grocery store and they have to be able to use data as quickly as possible to make decisions. One of the things they've been talking here is the monetization of data, the monetization of the network. How do you, how does Dell help, like a Dish be able to achieve the monetization of their data. >> Well as Marc was saying before the enterprise use cases are what we are all kind of betting on for 5G, right? And enterprises expect to have access to data and to telemetry to do whatever use cases they want to execute in their particular industry, so you know, if it's a health care provider, if it's a factory, an agricultural provider that's leveraging this network, they need to get the data from the network, from the devices, they need to correlate it, in order to do things like automatically turn on a watering system at a certain time, right, they need to know the weather around make sure it's not too windy and you're going to waste a lot of water. All that has data, it's going to leverage data from the network, it's going to leverage data from devices, it's going to leverage data from applications and that's data that can be monetized. When you have all that data and it's all correlated there's value, inherit to it and you can even go onto a forward looking state where you can intelligently move workloads around, based on the data. Based on the clarity of the traffic of the network, where is the right place to put it, and even based on current pricing for things like on demand insists from cloud providers. So having all that data correlated allows any enterprise to make an intelligent decision about how to move a workload around a network and get the most efficient placing of that workload. >> Marc, Andy mentions things like data and networks and moving data across the networks. You have on your business card, Chief Network Officer, what potentially either keeps you up at night in terror or gets you very excited about the future of your network? What's out there in the frontier and what are those key obstacles that have to be overcome that you work with? >> Yeah, I think we have the network, we have the baseline, but we don't yet have the consumption that is easy by the enterprise, you know an enterprise likes to say "I have 4K camera, I connect it to my software." Click, click, right? And that's where we need to be so we're talking about it APIs that are so simple that they become a click and we engineers we have a tendency to want to explain but we should not, it should become a click. You know, and the phone revolution with the apps became those clicks, we have to do the same for the enterprise, for video, for surveillance, for analytics, it has to be clicks. >> While balancing flexibility, and agility of course because you know the folks who were fans of CLIs come in light interfaces, who hate gooeys it's because they feel they have the ability to go down to another level, so obviously that's a balancing act. >> But that's our job. >> Yeah. >> Our job is to hide the complexity, but of course there is complexity. It's like in the cloud, an emprise scaler, they manage complex things but it's successful if they hide it. >> (Dave) Yeah. >> It's the same. You know we have to be emprise scaler of connectivity but hide it. >> Yeah. >> So that people connect everything, right? >> Well it's Andy's servers, we're all magicians hiding it all. >> Yeah. >> It really is. >> It's like don't worry about it, just know, >> Let us do it. >> Sit down, we will serve you the meal. Don't worry how it's cooked. >> That's right, the enterprises want the outcome. >> (Dave) Yeah. >> They don't want to deal with that bottom layer. But it is tremendously complex and we want to take that on and make it better for the industry. >> That's critical. Marc I'd love to go back to you and just I know that you've been in telco for such a long time and here we are day three of MWC the name changed this year, from Mobile World Congress, reflecting mobilism isn't the only thing, obviously it was the catalyst, but what some of the things that you've heard at the event, maybe seen at the event that give you the confidence that the right players are here to help move Dish wireless forward, for example. >> You know this is the first, I've been here for decades it's the first time, and I'm a Chief Network Officer, first time we don't talk about the network. >> (Andy) Yeah. >> Isn't that surprising? People don't tell me about speed, or latency, they talk about consumption. Apps, you know videos surveillance, or analytics or it's, so I love that, because now we're starting to talk about how we can consume and monetize but that's the first time. We use to talk about gigabytes and this and that, none of that not once. >> What does that signify to you, in terms of the evolution? >> Well you know, we've seen that the demand for the healthcare, for the smart cities, has been here for a decade, proof of concepts for a decade but the consumption has been behind and for me this is the oldest team is waking up to we are going to make it easy, so that the consumption can take off. The demand is there, we have to serve it. And the fact that people are starting to say we hide the complexity that's our problem, but don't even mention it, I love it. >> Yep. Drop the mic. >> (Andy and Marc) Yeah, yeah. >> Andy last question for you, some of the things we know Dell has a big and verging presents in telco, we've had a chance to see the booth, see the cool things you guys are featuring there, Dave did a great tour of it, talk about some of the things you've heard and maybe even from customers at this event that demonstrate to you that Dell is going in the right direction with it's telco strategy. >> Yeah, I mean personally for me this has been an unbelievable event for Dell we've had tons and tons of customer meetings of course and the feedback we're getting is that the things we're bring to market whether it's infrablocks, or purposeful servers that are designed for the telecom network are what our customers need and have always wanted. We get a lot of wows, right? >> (Lisa) That's nice. >> "Wow we didn't know Dell was doing this, we had no idea." And the other part of it is that not everybody was sure that we were going to move as fast as we have so the speed in which we've been able to bring some of these things to market and part of that was working with Dish, you know a pioneer, to make sure we were building the right things and I think a lot of the customers that we talked to really appreciate the fact that we're doing it with the industry, >> (Lisa) Yeah. >> You know, not at the industry and that comes across in the way they are responding and what their talking to us about now. >> And that came across in the interview that you just did. Thank you both for joining Dave and me. >> Thank you >> Talking about what Dell and Dish are doing together the proof is in the pudding, and you did a great job at explaining that, thanks guys, we appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> All right, our pleasure. For our guest and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from MWC 23 day three. We will be back with our next guest, so don't go anywhere. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante, here in our Boston studio. We're connecting today with Palo Alto, with John Furrier and Lisa Martin. We're also live from the show floor in Seattle. But right now, I'm here with Andy Thurai who's from Constellation Research, friend of theCUBE, and we're going to discuss the intersection of AI and security, the potential of AI, the risks and the future. Andy, welcome, good to see you again. >> Good to be here again. >> Hey, so let's get into it, can you talk a little bit about, I know this is a passion of yours, the ethical considerations surrounding AI. I mean, it's front and center in the news, and you've got accountability, privacy, security, biases. Should we be worried about AI from a security perspective? >> Absolutely, man, you should be worried. See the problem is, people don't realize this, right? I mean, the ChatGPT being a new shiny object, it's all the craze that's about. But the problem is, most of the content that's produced either by ChatGPT or even by others, it's an access, no warranties, no accountability, no whatsoever. Particularly, if it is content, it's okay. But if it is something like a code that you use for example, one of their site projects that GitHub's co-pilot, which is actually, open AI + Microsoft + GitHub's combo, they allow you to produce code, AI writes code basically, right? But when you write code, problem with that is, it's not exactly stolen, but the models are created by using the GitHub code. Actually, they're getting sued for that, saying that, "You can't use our code". Actually there's a guy, Tim Davidson, I think he's named the professor, he actually demonstrated how AI produces exact copy of the code that he has written. So right now, it's a lot of security, accountability, privacy issues. Use it either to train or to learn. But in my view, it's not ready for enterprise grade yet. >> So, Brian Behlendorf today in his keynotes said he's really worried about ChatGPT being used to automate spearfishing. So I'm like, okay, so let's unpack that a little bit. Is the concern there that it just, the ChatGPT writes such compelling phishing content, it's going to increase the probability of somebody clicking on it, or are there other dimensions? >> It could, it's not necessarily just ChatGPT for that matter, right? AI can, actually, the hackers are using it to an extent already, can use to individualize content. For example, one of the things that you are able to easily identify when you're looking at the emails that are coming in, the phishing attack is, you look at some of the key elements in it, whether it's a human or even if it's an automated AI based system. They look at certain things and they say, "Okay, this is phishing". But if you were to read an email that looks exact copy of what I would've sent to you saying that, "Hey Dave, are you on for tomorrow? Or click on this link to do whatever. It could individualize the message. That's where the volume at scale to individual to masses, that can be done using AI, which is what scares me. >> Is there a flip side to AI? How is it being utilized to help cybersecurity? And maybe you could talk about some of the more successful examples of AI in security. Like, are there use cases or are there companies out there, Andy, that you find, I know you're close to a lot of firms that are leading in this area. You and I have talked about CrowdStrike, I know Palo Alto Network, so is there a positive side to this story? >> Yeah, I mean, absolutely right. Those are some of the good companies you mentioned, CrowdStrike, Palo Alto, Darktrace is another one that I closely follow, which is a good company as well, that they're using AI for security purposes. So, here's the thing, right, when people say, when they're using malware detection systems, most of the malware detection systems that are in today's security and malware systems, use some sort of a signature and pattern scanning in the malware. You know how many identified malwares are there today in the repository, in the library? More than a billion, a billion. So, if you are to check for every malware in your repository, that's not going to work. The pattern based recognition is not going to work. So, you got to figure out a different way of identification of pattern of usage, not just a signature in a malware, right? Or there are other areas you could use, things like the usage patterns. For example, if Andy is coming in to work at a certain time, you could combine a facial recognition saying, that should he be in here at that time, and should he be doing things, what he is supposed to be doing. There are a lot of things you could do using that, right? And the AIOps use cases, which is one of my favorite areas that I work, do a lot of work, right? That it has use cases for detecting things that are anomaly, that are not supposed to be done in a way that's supposed to be, reducing the noise so it can escalate only the things what you're supposed to. So, AIOps is a great use case to use in security areas which they're not using it to an extent yet. Incident management is another area. >> So, in your malware example, you're saying, okay, known malware, pretty much anybody can deal with that now. That's sort of yesterday's problem. >> The unknown is the problem. >> It's the unknown malware really trying to understand the patterns, and the patterns are going to change. It's not like you're saying a common signature 'cause they're going to use AI to change things up at scale. >> So, here's the problem, right? The malware writers are also using AI now, right? So, they're not going to write the old malware, send it to you. They are actually creating malware on the fly. It is possible entirely in today's world that they can create a malware, drop in your systems and it'll it look for the, let me get that name right. It's called, what are we using here? It's called the TTPs, Tactics, Techniques and procedures. It'll look for that to figure out, okay, am I doing the right pattern? And then malware can sense it saying that, okay, that's the one they're detecting. I'm going to change it on the fly. So, AI can code itself on the fly, rather malware can code itself on the fly, which is going to be hard to detect. >> Well, and when you talk about TTP, when you talk to folks like Kevin Mandia of Mandiant, recently purchased by Google or other of those, the ones that have the big observation space, they'll talk about the most malicious hacks that they see, involve lateral movement. So, that's obviously something that people are looking for, AI's looking for that. And of course, the hackers are going to try to mask that lateral movement, living off the land and other things. How do you see AI impacting the future of cyber? We talked about the risks and the good. One of the things that Brian Behlendorf also mentioned is that, he pointed out that in the early days of the internet, the protocols had an inherent element of trust involved. So, things like SMTP, they didn't have security built in. So, they built up a lot of technical debt. Do you see AI being able to help with that? What steps do you see being taken to ensure that AI based systems are secure? >> So, the major difference between the older systems and the newer systems is the older systems, sadly even today, a lot of them are rules-based. If it's a rules-based systems, you are dead in the water and not able, right? So, the AI-based systems can somewhat learn from the patterns as I was talking about, for example... >> When you say rules-based systems, you mean here's the policy, here's the rule, if it's not followed but then you're saying, AI will blow that away, >> AI will blow that away, you don't have to necessarily codify things saying that, okay, if this, then do this. You don't have to necessarily do that. AI can somewhat to an extent self-learn saying that, okay, if that doesn't happen, if this is not a pattern that I know which is supposed to happen, who should I escalate this to? Who does this system belong to? And the other thing, the AIOps use case we talked about, right, the anomalies. When an anomaly happens, then the system can closely look at, saying that, okay, this is not normal behavior or usage. Is that because system's being overused or is it because somebody's trying to access something, could look at the anomaly detection, anomaly prevention or even prediction to an extent. And that's where AI could be very useful. >> So, how about the developer angle? 'Cause CNCF, the event in Seattle is all around developers, how can AI be integrated? We did a lot of talk at the conference about shift-left, we talked about shift-left and protect right. Meaning, protect the run time. So, both are important, so what steps should be taken to ensure that the AI systems are being developed in a secure and ethically sound way? What's the role of developers in that regard? >> How long do you got? (Both laughing) I think it could go for base on that. So, here's the problem, right? Lot of these companies are trying to see, I mean, you might have seen that in the news that Buzzfeed is trying to hire all of the writers to create the thing that ChatGPT is creating, a lot of enterprises... >> How, they're going to fire their writers? >> Yeah, they replace the writers. >> It's like automated automated vehicles and automated Uber drivers. >> So, the problem is a lot of enterprises still haven't done that, at least the ones I'm speaking to, are thinking about saying, "Hey, you know what, can I replace my developers because they are so expensive? Can I replace them with AI generated code?" There are a few issues with that. One, AI generated code is based on some sort of a snippet of a code that has been already available. So, you get into copyright issues, that's issue number one, right? Issue number two, if AI creates code and if something were to go wrong, who's responsible for that? There's no accountability right now. Or you as a company that's creating a system that's responsible, or is it ChatGPT, Microsoft is responsible. >> Or is the developer? >> Or the developer. >> The individual developer might be. So, they're going to be cautious about that liability. >> Well, so one of the areas where I'm seeing a lot of enterprises using this is they are using it to teach developers to learn things. You know what, if you're to code, this is a good way to code. That area, it's okay because you are just teaching them. But if you are to put an actual production code, this is what I advise companies, look, if somebody's using even to create a code, whether with or without your permission, make sure that once the code is committed, you validate that the 100%, whether it's a code or a model, or even make sure that the data what you're feeding in it is completely out of bias or no bias, right? Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who, what, when did that, if you put out a service or a system out there, it is involving your company liability and system, and code in place. You're going to be screwed regardless of what, if something were to go wrong, you are the first person who's liable for it. >> Andy, when you think about the dangers of AI, and what keeps you up at night if you're a security professional AI and security professional. We talked about ChatGPT doing things, we don't even, the hackers are going to get creative. But what worries you the most when you think about this topic? >> A lot, a lot, right? Let's start off with an example, actually, I don't know if you had a chance to see that or not. The hackers used a bank of Hong Kong, used a defect mechanism to fool Bank of Hong Kong to transfer $35 million to a fake account, the money is gone, right? And the problem that is, what they did was, they interacted with a manager and they learned this executive who can control a big account and cloned his voice, and clone his patterns on how he calls and what he talks and the whole name he has, after learning that, they call the branch manager or bank manager and say, "Hey, you know what, hey, move this much money to whatever." So, that's one way of kind of phishing, kind of deep fake that can come. So, that's just one example. Imagine whether business is conducted by just using voice or phone calls itself. That's an area of concern if you were to do that. And imagine this became an uproar a few years back when deepfakes put out the video of Tom Cruise and others we talked about in the past, right? And Tom Cruise looked at the video, he said that he couldn't distinguish that he didn't do it. It is so close, that close, right? And they are doing things like they're using gems... >> Awesome Instagram account by the way, the guy's hilarious, right? >> So, they they're using a lot of this fake videos and fake stuff. As long as it's only for entertainment purposes, good. But imagine doing... >> That's right there but... >> But during the election season when people were to put out saying that, okay, this current president or ex-president, he said what? And the masses believe right now whatever they're seeing in TV, that's unfortunate thing. I mean, there's no fact checking involved, and you could change governments and elections using that, which is scary shit, right? >> When you think about 2016, that was when we really first saw, the weaponization of social, the heavy use of social and then 2020 was like, wow. >> To the next level. >> It was crazy. The polarization, 2024, would deepfakes... >> Could be the next level, yeah. >> I mean, it's just going to escalate. What about public policy? I want to pick your brain on this because I I've seen situations where the EU, for example, is going to restrict the ability to ship certain code if it's involved with critical infrastructure. So, let's say, example, you're running a nuclear facility and you've got the code that protects that facility, and it can be useful against some other malware that's outside of that country, but you're restricted from sending that for whatever reason, data sovereignty. Is public policy, is it aligned with the objectives in this new world? Or, I mean, normally they have to catch up. Is that going to be a problem in your view? >> It is because, when it comes to laws it's always miles behind when a new innovation happens. It's not just for AI, right? I mean, the same thing happened with IOT. Same thing happened with whatever else new emerging tech you have. The laws have to understand if there's an issue and they have to see a continued pattern of misuse of the technology, then they'll come up with that. Use in ways they are ahead of things. So, they put a lot of restrictions in place and about what AI can or cannot do, US is way behind on that, right? But California has done some things, for example, if you are talking to a chat bot, then you have to basically disclose that to the customer, saying that you're talking to a chat bot, not to a human. And that's just a very basic rule that they have in place. I mean, there are times that when a decision is made by the, problem is, AI is a black box now. The decision making is also a black box now, and we don't tell people. And the problem is if you tell people, you'll get sued immediately because every single time, we talked about that last time, there are cases involving AI making decisions, it gets thrown out the window all the time. If you can't substantiate that. So, the bottom line is that, yes, AI can assist and help you in making decisions but just use that as a assistant mechanism. A human has to be always in all the loop, right? >> Will AI help with, in your view, with supply chain, the software supply chain security or is it, it's always a balance, right? I mean, I feel like the attackers are more advanced in some ways, it's like they're on offense, let's say, right? So, when you're calling the plays, you know where you're going, the defense has to respond to it. So in that sense, the hackers have an advantage. So, what's the balance with software supply chain? Are the hackers have the advantage because they can use AI to accelerate their penetration of the software supply chain? Or will AI in your view be a good defensive mechanism? >> It could be but the problem is, the velocity and veracity of things can be done using AI, whether it's fishing, or malware, or other security and the vulnerability scanning the whole nine yards. It's scary because the hackers have a full advantage right now. And actually, I think ChatGPT recently put out two things. One is, it's able to direct the code if it is generated by ChatGPT. So basically, if you're trying to fake because a lot of schools were complaining about it, that's why they came up with the mechanism. So, if you're trying to create a fake, there's a mechanism for them to identify. But that's a step behind still, right? And the hackers are using things to their advantage. Actually ChatGPT made a rule, if you go there and read the terms and conditions, it's basically honor rule suggesting, you can't use this for certain purposes, to create a model where it creates a security threat, as that people are going to listen. So, if there's a way or mechanism to restrict hackers from using these technologies, that would be great. But I don't see that happening. So, know that these guys have an advantage, know that they're using AI, and you have to do things to be prepared. One thing I was mentioning about is, if somebody writes a code, if somebody commits a code right now, the problem is with the agile methodologies. If somebody writes a code, if they commit a code, you assume that's right and legit, you immediately push it out into production because need for speed is there, right? But if you continue to do that with the AI produced code, you're screwed. >> So, bottom line is, AI's going to speed us up in a security context or is it going to slow us down? >> Well, in the current version, the AI systems are flawed because even the ChatGPT, if you look at the the large language models, you look at the core piece of data that's available in the world as of today and then train them using that model, using the data, right? But people are forgetting that's based on today's data. The data changes on a second basis or on a minute basis. So, if I want to do something based on tomorrow or a day after, you have to retrain the models. So, the data already have a stale. So, that in itself is stale and the cost for retraining is going to be a problem too. So overall, AI is a good first step. Use that with a caution, is what I want to say. The system is flawed now, if you use it as is, you'll be screwed, it's dangerous. >> Andy, you got to go, thanks so much for coming in, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome, so we're going wall to wall with our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante in the Boston Studio, John Furrier, Lisa Martin and Palo Alto. We're going to be live on the show floor as well, bringing in keynote speakers and others on the ground. Keep it right there for more coverage on theCUBE. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

well you're watching the cube and I knew that you knew that I'm John Walls we're here in Las Vegas it's re invent 22. Big Show AWS putting it on the Big Show here late in 2022 that's going really well we're at the executive Summit right now sponsored by Accenture and we're going to talk about that relationship between Accenture and AWS um kind of where it is now and where it's going you know even bigger things down the road to help us do that two guests Andy Tay who's a senior managing director and the Accenture AWS business group lead at Accenture Andy thanks for being with us thanks for having me and Sarah whose last name was one of my all-time favorites all good because it is it's all good right okay it's all good Sarah all good worldwide leader of accenture's AWS business group for AWS and thank you both again for being here so let's talk about the relationship just in general high level here 30 000 feet a lot of great things have been happening we know a lot of great things are happening but how's this all you think evolved how did how has this come about that you two are just inextricably linked almost here in the cloud space Sarah why don't you jump on that yeah I'd love to um I think one of the the strongest factors that causes that Synergy for us is we both work backwards from our customer outcomes and so just by consistently doing that taking those customer signals um really obsessing over our customers success we know what we're marching towards and so then we kind of extract those themes and really work together to think about okay when we look at this holistically how do we go bigger better faster together and accomplish and solve those customer problems yeah Andy yeah John let me just maybe add and you know to amplify you know what Sarah just touched on um we both have common to our culture this notion of working from the client's perspective first so really delivering to the clients values or um you know in aws's parlance it's you know customer and so that's at the core and when we keep that at the core everything else becomes really easy where we invest what we build key clients we focus on what our team structure is et cetera Etc that's really easy so that sort of core core pillar number one in terms of our sort of you know success factors the second thing that I think really helps us is our sort of scale geographically you know certainly from an Accenture standpoint as you know John we're north of 800 000 people globally um couple that with aws's strength we really do have you know a field depth and breadth across the board that allows us to sort of see and feel what's happening in the market and allows us really to see around the corners as we like to think and say um and and that helps us be intentional on what we do um and then the third thing is really us we might know what we do but we sort of need to then play to our strengths and as you know we're two very different companies one focus on the technology side the other you know focus on the technology Services although we'll touch on you know some of the changes we're looking at as we go forward but that sort of playing to strength is key as well for us as a third pillar of success and so keeping those three things at the core really helps us move you know day to day and year by year and that's what you see in this continued partnership so what are you hearing from your customers these days we've talked a lot already today and it's kind of the buzzword you know modernization right everybody's talking about this transformation I don't care if you're in Mainframe or where you are everybody wants a modernized right now um you know what are you hearing from customers in that regard and I'm sure everybody's in a different state different yeah frame of mind you know some are embracing some are dragging uh what what's your take on the state of play right now well and I think it's like especially in these macroeconomic moments that we're in um time to value is critical for our customers um and then we have the talent shortage but even with those our customers still need us to solve for sustainability and still focus on inclusion diversity and equity and so we can't lower the bar in anything that we've already been doing we need to just keep doing more and building with them and so I think um for us really getting to the to the meat of what our customers need modernization is a big one but we're still seeing just so many of our customers look at basic transformation right how how do I dip in how do I start to move my environment move my people and get ready for what I need to do next for my business and so that that is a challenge and like we said with with the markets as volatile as they are right now I think a lot of customers are just trying to work with us to figure out how to do that in the most optimized and efficient way I just want to kind of rub people on the head and say it's going to be all right I mean it's so volatile as you pointed out Sarah right yeah I mean the market up and down and we're worried about a recession and companies and their plans they want to be Forward Thinking yeah but they've got to you know keep their powder dry too in some respects and get ready for that rainy day you know John it's funny um because you would think you know you've got the one hand you know rub that you know it's gonna be all right and and then on the other end you'll you know maybe clients should sort of hold temper and you know sort of just pause but I think clients get it they see it they feel it they understand the need to invest and I think you know there's a recent study back in 2008 those clients you know Sarah and I were reading the other day those clients who didn't invest ahead of those you know major if you remember those macroeconomic downturn times they came out really on the bad side um and so clients now are realizing that in these times these are the moments to invest and so they get it but they're faced with a couple of challenges one is time Sarah touched on you just don't have time and the second is Talent so we're working in a very intentional way on what we can do to help them there and and as you'll hear later on from Chris Wegman and Eric Farr um we're launching our velocity platform which really helps to compress that type and and get them faster you know time to Value we're also being very intentional on talent and how we help their talent so you know rotate so that we're not just taking the technology Journey but we're also having the people journey and then the third thing Sarah and I really focus on with our teams is figuring out new ways new sources of value for our clients and that's not just cost that's value the broader set and so we find that in moments like this it's actually an opportunity for us to really bring the best of AWS and Accenture to our clients well you hit value and I always find this one kind of tough because there is a big difference between cost and value my cost is X right whatever I write on my chat that's my cost so but but how do you help clients identify that value so that because it's you know it can be a little nebulous right can it not I mean it's uh but you have to validate you got to quantify at the end of the day because that's what the CEO wants to see it's what the CIO wants to see yeah you've got to identify values so how many how do you do that yeah yeah I mean we we have many different ways right velocity which Andy kind of touched on I think is is really um it's our foundational approach to help customers really kind of enter into their Cloud journey and focus on those key factors for Success right so we've got ISB Solutions built in there We've Got Talent and change built in we've got kind of what we're calling the fabric right that foundational technology layer and giving our customers all of that in a way that they can consume in a way that they can control and you know different modules essentially that they can leverage to move it's going to be tangible right they're going to be able to see I've now got access to all these things that I need I can move as I need to move and I'm not constantly you know looking around figuring out how to lock it all together we've given them that picture and that road map on how to really leverage this because we we need to be able to point to tangible outcomes and so that's critical yeah proof's got to be in the pudding and and you know to Sarah's point I think sort of we're entering into this sort of new dare I say new chapter of cloud and then you know sort of the first chapter was sort of those outcomes were around cost you know I've moved you into the cloud you can shut down your data center but now we've sort of got other sources of value now Beyond costs there's news new sources of revenue how do I become a platform company on top of the AWS cloud and then you know eke out new Revenue sources for myself how do I drive new experiences for my customers yeah um how do I maybe tap into the sustainability angle of things and how do I get greater Innovation from my talent how do I operate better in a Sarah said how do I become more Nimble more agile and more responsive to Market demands and so all those areas all those Dynamics all those outcomes are sources of value that were sort of really laser focused on and just ensuring that as a partnership we we help our clients on that Journey so what do you do about talent I mean you brought it up a couple of times UTP has um in terms of of training retaining recruiting all those key elements right now it's an ultra competitive environment right now yeah and there might be a little bit of a talent Gap in terms of what we're producing right so um you know how do you I guess make the most out of that and and make sure you keep the good people around yeah Talent is an interesting one John um and we were just touching on this uh before we got here um you know sort of from an Accenture standpoint um we're obviously focused on growing our AWS Talent um we've now got I think it's north of 27 000 people in Accenture with AWS certifications north of 34 000 certificates you know which is absolutely fantastic a small City it's just I mean it is very intentional in building that um as AWS rolls out new Services Adam touched on a whole bunch of them today we're at the core of that and ramping and building our talent so that we can drive and get our clients quicker to their value and then the second area of focus is what do we do to help our clients Talent how do we train them how do we enable them how do we you know get them to be more agile and you know being able to sort of operate in what we call that digital core operate in the cloud how do we do that and so we're focused um in in capabilities in fact our Accenture head of talent and people and change Christie Smith John is is here this week just for that and we're exploring ways in which we can get tighter and even more Innovative Around Talent and so I ultimately that that bleeds over to where the partnership goes right because if you can enhance that side of it then then everybody wins on that in terms of what you think you know where this is going yeah yeah it's already you know pretty good setup uh things are working pretty well but as the industry changes so rapidly and and you have to meet those needs how do you see the partnership evolving as well to meet those needs down the road we we have a very fortunate position in that our CEOs are both very engaged in this partnership and they push us think bigger go faster figure it out let's ride and there are definite pros and cons and some days I'm flying this close to the Sun but um it isn't a it's an absolute privilege to work with them the way that we get to and so we're always looking I mean Auntie said it earlier this is the relationship that helps us look around corners we've raised the bar and so we're constantly pushing each other pushing our teams just innovating together thinking it all through on where are we going and like I said reading those tea leaves reading those themes from our customers like hey we've just had five customers with the same similar feeling problem that we're trying to solve or we ran into the same issue in the field and how do we put that together and solve for it because we know it's not just five right we know they're more out there and so um I think you know it's it's leadership principles for us right at Amazon that guiding think big um you know insist on high standards that that'll always be core and Central to who we are and then you know fortunately Accenture has a really similar ethos yeah quick take on that Andy yeah I think as we look out you know I think um we're going to we've already seen but we're going to see this continued blurring of Industries um of um you know sort of clients moving into other Industries and yeah sort of this sort of agitation Market agitation um and so I think disruption you know disruption and and we're being you know focused on what do we need to be to do in order to help our clients on those Journeys and and to continue to you know get them you know faster Solutions is an area that we you know we are um really looking at and these are solutions that are either industry Solutions you'll hear a couple of them this week um you know we've got our insurance solution that we're we've developed as an intelligent underwriting capability leveraging AWS AIML to sort of be intelligent and cognitive um you know we've got other Solutions around the around Industries energy and Life Sciences but then also intelligent applications that might be touching you know areas I think earlier today Adam talked about AWS supply chain and that's an area that we are focused on and and proud to be a part of that and we're working very very closely with with Amazon on that uh to help you know our clients move ahead so I think we're going to see this continued blurring and we're going to obviously you know keep addressing that and just keep iterating well it looks like a relationship of trust and expertise right and it's worked out extremely well and uh if this is any indication where the interview went uh even better things are ahead for the partnership so thank you thank you for chiming in I appreciate your perspectives yeah thank you it's been great we continue our coverage here on thecube we're at re invent 22 we're in Las Vegas and you're watching thecube the leader in technical coverage foreign

>>Hello everyone and welcome back to Motor City, Michigan. We're live from the Cube and my name is Savannah Peterson. Joined this afternoon with my co-host John Ferer. John, how you doing? Doing >>Great. This next segment's gonna be awesome about application modernization, scaling pluses. This is what's gonna, how are the next generation software revolution? It's gonna be >>Fun. You know, it's kind of been a theme of our day today is scale. And when we think about the complex orchestration platform that is Kubernetes, everyone wants to scale faster, quicker, more efficiently, and our guests are here to tell us all about that. Please welcome to Char and Andy, thank you so much for being here with us. You were on the Red Hat OpenShift team. Yeah. I suspect most of our audience is familiar, but just in case, let's give 'em a quick one-liner pitch so everyone's on the same page. Tell us about OpenShift. >>I, I'll take that one. OpenShift is our ES platform is our ES distribution. You can consume it as a self-managed platform or you can consume it as a managed service on on public clouds. And so we just call it all OpenShift. So it's basically Kubernetes, but you know, with a CNCF ecosystem around it to make things more easier. So maybe there's two >>Lights. So what does being at coupon mean for you? How does it feel to be here? What's your initial takes? >>Exciting. I'm having a fantastic time. I haven't been to coupon since San Diego, so it's great to be back in person and see old friends, make new friends, have hallway conversations. It's, it's great as an engineer trying to work in this ecosystem, just being able to, to be in the same place with these folks. >>And you gotta ask, before we came on camera, you're like, this is like my sixth co con. We were like, we're seven, you know, But that's a lot of co coupons. It >>Is, yes. I mean, so what, >>Yes. >>Take us status >>For sure. Where we are now. Compare and contrast co. Your first co con, just scope it out. What's the magnitude of change? If you had to put a pin on that, because there's a lot of new people coming in, they might not have seen where it's come from and how we got here is maybe not how we're gonna get to the next >>Level. I've seen it grow tremendously since the first one I went to, which I think was Austin several years ago. And what's great is seeing lots of new people interested in contributing and also seeing end users who are trying to figure out the best way to take advantage of this great ecosystem that we have. >>Awesome. And the project management side, you get the keys to the Kingdom with Red Hat OpenShift, which has been successful. Congratulations by the way. Thank you. We watched that grow and really position right on the wave. It's going great. What's the update on on the product? Kind of, you're in a good, good position right now. Yeah, >>No, we we're feeling good about it. It's all about our customers. Obviously the fact that, you know, we have thousands of customers using OpenShift as the cloud native platform, the container platform. We're very excited. The great thing about them is that, I mean you can go to like OpenShift Commons is kind of a user group that we run on the first day, like on Tuesday we ran. I mean you should see the number of just case studies that our customers went through there, you know? And it is fantastic to see that. I mean it's across so many different industries, across so many different use cases, which is very exciting. >>One of the things we've been reporting here in the Qla scene before, but here more important is just that if you take digital transformation to the, to its conclusion, the IT department and developers, they're not a department to serve the business. They are the business. Yes. That means that the developers are deciding things. Yeah. And running the business. Prove their code. Yeah. Okay. If that's, if that takes place, you gonna have scale. And we also said on many cubes, certainly at Red Hat Summit and other ones, the clouds are distributed computer, it's distributed computing. So you guys are focusing on this project, Andy, that you're working on kcp. >>Yes. >>Which is, I won't platform Kubernetes platform for >>Control >>Planes. Control planes. Yes. Take us through, what's the focus on why is that important and why is that relate to the mission of developers being in charge and large scale? >>Sure. So a lot of times when people are interested in developing on Kubernetes and running workloads, they need a cluster of course. And those are not cheap. It takes time, it takes money, it takes resources to get them. And so we're trying to make that faster and easier for, for end users and everybody involved. So with kcp, we've been able to take what looks like one normal Kubernetes and partition it. And so everybody gets a slice of it. You're an administrator in your little slice and you don't have to ask for permission to install new APIs and they don't conflict with anybody else's APIs. So we're really just trying to make it super fast and make it super flexible. So everybody is their own admin. >>So the developer basically looks at it as a resource blob. They can do whatever they want, but it's shared and provisioned. >>Yes. One option. It's like, it's like they have their own cluster, but you don't have to go through the process of actually provisioning a full >>Cluster. And what's the alternative? What's the what's, what's the, what's the benefit and what was the alternative to >>This? So the alternative, you spin up a full cluster, which you know, maybe that's three control plane nodes, you've got multiple workers, you've got a bunch of virtual machines or bare metal, or maybe you take, >>How much time does that take? Just ballpark. >>Anywhere from five minutes to an hour you can use cloud services. Yeah. Gke, E Ks and so on. >>Keep banging away. You're configuring. Yeah. >>Those are faster. Yeah. But it's still like, you still have to wait for that to happen and it costs money to do all of that too. >>Absolutely. And it's complex. Why do something that's been done, if there's a tool that can get you a couple steps down the path, which makes a ton of sense. Something that we think a lot when we're talking about scale. You mentioned earlier, Tohar, when we were chatting before the cams were alive, scale means a lot of different things. Can you dig in there a little bit? >>Yeah, I >>Mean, so when, when >>We talk about scale, >>We are talking about from a user perspective, we are talking about, you know, there are more users, there are more applications, there are more workloads, there are more services being run on Kubernetes now, right? So, and OpenShift. So, so that's one dimension of this scale. The other dimension of the scale is how do you manage all the underlying infrastructure, the clusters, the name spaces, and all the observability data, et cetera. So that's at least two levels of scale. And then obviously there's a third level of scale, which is, you know, there is scale across not just different clouds, but also from cloud to the edge. So there is that dimension of scale. So there are several dimensions of this scale. And the one that again, we are focused on here really is about, you know, this, the first one that I talk about is a user. And when I say user, it could be a developer, it could be an application architect, or it could be an application owner who wants to develop Kubernetes applications for Kubernetes and wants to publish those APIs, if you will, and make it discoverable and then somebody consumes it. So that's the scale we are talking about >>Here. What are some of the enterprise, you guys have a lot of customers, we've talked to you guys before many, many times and other subjects, Red Hat, I mean you guys have all the customers. Yeah. Enterprise, they've been there, done that. And you know, they're, they're savvy. Yeah. But the cloud is a whole nother ballgame. What are they thinking about? What's the psychology of the customer right now? Because now they have a lot of choices. Okay, we get it, we're gonna re-platform refactor apps, we'll keep some legacy on premises for whatever reasons. But cloud pretty much is gonna be the game. What's the mindset right now of the customer base? Where are they in their, in their psych? Not the executive, but more of the the operators or the developers? >>Yeah, so I mean, first of all, different customers are at different levels of maturity, I would say in this. They're all on a journey how I like to describe it. And in this journey, I mean, I see a customers who are really tip of the sphere. You know, they have containerized everything. They're cloud native, you know, they use best of tools, I mean automation, you know, complete automation, you know, quick deployment of applications and all, and life cycle of applications, et cetera. So that, that's kind of one end of this spectrum >>Advanced. Then >>The advances, you know, and, and I, you know, I don't, I don't have any specific numbers here, but I'd say there are quite a few of them. And we see that. And then there is kind of the middle who are, I would say, who are familiar with containers. They know what app modernization, what a cloud application means. They might have tried a few. So they are in the journey. They are kind of, they want to get there. They have some other kind of other issues, organizational or talent and so, so on and so forth. Kinds of issues to get there. And then there are definitely the quota, what I would call the lag arts still. And there's lots of them. But I think, you know, Covid has certainly accelerated a lot of that. I hear that. And there is definitely, you know, more, the psychology is definitely more towards what I would say public cloud. But I think where we are early also in the other trend that I see is kind of okay, public cloud great, right? So people are going there, but then there is the so-called edge also. Yeah. That is for various regions. You, you gotta have a kind of a regional presence, a edge presence. And that's kind of the next kind of thing taking off here. And we can talk more >>About it. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit because I, as you know, as we know, we're very excited about Edge here at the Cube. Yeah. What types of trends are you seeing? Is that space emerges a little bit more firmly? >>Yeah, so I mean it's, I mean, so we, when we talk about Edge, you're talking about, you could talk about Edge as a, as a retail, I mean locations, right? >>Could be so many things edges everywhere. Everywhere, right? It's all around us. Quite literally. Even on the >>Scale. Exactly. In space too. You could, I mean, in fact you mentioned space. I was, I was going to >>Kinda, it's this world, >>My space actually Kubernetes and OpenShift running in space, believe it or not, you know, So, so that's the edge, right? So we have Industrial Edge, we have Telco Edge, we have a 5g, then we have, you know, automotive edge now and, and, and retail edge and, and more, right? So, and space, you know, So it's very exciting there. So the reason I tag back to that question that you asked earlier is that that's where customers are. So cloud is one thing, but now they gotta also think about how do I, whatever I do in the cloud, how do I bring it to the edge? Because that's where my end users are, my customers are, and my data is, right? So that's the, >>And I think Kubernetes has brought that attention to the laggards. We had the Laed Martin on yesterday, which is an incredible real example of Kubernetes at the edge. It's just incredible story. We covered it also wrote a story about it. So compelling. Cuz it makes it real. Yes. And Kubernetes is real. So then the question is developer productivity, okay, Things are starting to settle in. We've got KCP scaling clusters, things are happening. What about the tool chains? And how do I develop now I got scale of development, more code coming in. I mean, we are speculating that in the future there's so much code in open source that no one has to write code anymore. Yeah. At some point it's like this gluing things together. So the developers need to be productive. How are we gonna scale the developer equation and eliminate the, the complexity of tool chains and environments. Web assembly is super hyped up at this show. I don't know why, but sounds good. No one, no one can tell me why, but I can kind of connect the dots. But this is a big thing. >>Yeah. And it's fitting that you ask about like no code. So we've been working with our friends at Cross Plain and have integrated with kcp the ability to no code, take a whole bunch of configuration and say, I want a database. I want to be a, a provider of databases. I'm in an IT department, there's a bunch of developers, they don't wanna have to write code to create databases. So I can just take, take my configuration and make it available to them. And through some super cool new easy to use tools that we have as a developer, you can just say, please give me a database and you don't have to write any code. I don't have to write any code to maintain that database. I'm actually using community tooling out there to get that spun up. So there's a lot of opportunities out there. So >>That's ease of use check. What about a large enterprise that's got multiple tool chains and you start having security issues. Does that disrupt the tool chain capability? Like there's all those now weird examples emerging, not weird, but like real plumbing challenges. How do you guys see that evolving with Red >>Hat and Yeah, I mean, I mean, talking about that, right? The software, secure software supply chain is a huge concern for everyone after, especially some of the things that have happened in the past few >>Years. Massive team here at the show. Yeah. And just within the community, we're all a little more aware, I think, even than we were before. >>Before. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think the, so to step back, I mean from, so, so it's not just even about, you know, run time vulnerability scanning, Oh, that's important, but that's not enough, right? So we are talking about, okay, how did that container, or how did that workload get there? What is that workload? What's the prominence of this workload? How did it get created? What is in it? You know, and what, what are, how do I make, make sure that there are no unsafe attack s there. And so that's the software supply chain. And where Red Hat is very heavily invested. And as you know, with re we kind of have roots in secure operating system. And rel one of the reasons why Rel, which is the foundation of everything we do at Red Hat, is because of security. So an OpenShift has always been secure out of the box with things like scc, rollbacks access control, we, which we added very early in the product. >>And now if you kind of bring that forward, you know, now we are talking about the complete software supply chain security. And this is really about right how from the moment the, the, the developer rights code and checks it into a gateway repository from there on, how do you build it? How do you secure it at each step of the process, how do you sign it? And we are investing and contributing to the community with things like cosign and six store, which is six store project. And so that secures the supply chain. And then you can use things like algo cd and then finally we can do it, deploy it onto the cluster itself. And then we have things like acs, which can do vulnerability scanning, which is a container security platform. >>I wanna thank you guys for coming on. I know Savannah's probably got a last question, but my last question is, could you guys each take a minute to answer why has Kubernetes been so successful today? What, what was the magic of Kubernetes that made it successful? Was it because no one forced it? Yes. Was it lightweight? Was it good timing, right place at the right time community? What's the main reason that Kubernetes is enabling all this, all this shift and goodness that's coming together, kind of defacto unifies people, the stacks, almost middleware markets coming around. Again, not to use that term middleware, but it feels like it's just about to explode. Yeah. Why is this so successful? I, >>I think, I mean, the shortest answer that I can give there really is, you know, as you heard the term, I think Satya Nala from Microsoft has used it. I don't know if he was the original person who pointed, but every company wants to be a software company or is a software company now. And that means that they want to develop stuff fast. They want to develop stuff at scale and develop at, in a cloud native way, right? You know, with the cloud. So that's, and, and Kubernetes came at the right time to address the cloud problem, especially across not just one public cloud or two public clouds, but across a whole bunch of public clouds and infrastructure as, and what we call the hybrid clouds. I think the ES is really exploded because of hybrid cloud, the need for hybrid cloud. >>And what's your take on the, the magic Kubernetes? What made it, what's making it so successful? >>I would agree also that it came about at the right time, but I would add that it has great extensibility and as developers we take it advantage of that every single day. And I think that the, the patterns that we use for developing are very consistent. And I think that consistency that came with Kubernetes, just, you have so many people who are familiar with it and so they can follow the same patterns, implement things similarly, and it's just a good fit for the way that we want to get our software out there and have, and have things operate. >>Keep it simple, stupid almost is that acronym, but the consistency and the de facto alignment Yes. Behind it just created a community. So, so then the question is, are the developers now setting the standards? That seems like that's the new way, right? I mean, >>I'd like to think so. >>So I mean hybrid, you, you're touching everything at scale and you also have mini shift as well, right? Which is taking a super macro micro shift. You ma micro shift. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. It is a micro shift. That is, that is fantastic. There isn't a base you don't cover. You've spoken a lot about community and both of you have, and serving the community as well as your engagement with them from a, I mean, it's given that you're both leaders stepping back, how, how Community First is Red Hat and OpenShift as an organization when it comes to building the next products and, and developing. >>I'll take and, and I'm sure Andy is actually the community, so I'm sure he'll want to a lot of it. But I mean, right from the start, we have roots in open source. I'll keep it, you know, and, and, and certainly with es we were one of the original contributors to Kubernetes other than Google. So in some ways we think about as co-creators of es, they love that. And then, yeah, then we have added a lot of things in conjunction with the, I I talk about like SCC for Secure, which has become part security right now, which the community, we added things like our back and other what we thought were enterprise features needed because we actually wanted to build a product out of it and sell it to customers where our customers are enterprises. So we have worked with the community. Sometimes we have been ahead of the community and we have convinced the community. Sometimes the community has been ahead of us for other reasons. So it's been a great collaboration, which is I think the right thing to do. But Andy, as I said, >>Is the community well set too? Are well said. >>Yes, I agree with all of that. I spend most of my days thinking about how to interact with the community and engage with them. So the work that we're doing on kcp, we want it to be a community project and we want to involve as many people as we can. So it is a heavy focus for me and my team. And yeah, we we do >>It all the time. How's it going? How's the project going? You feel good >>About it? I do. It is, it started as an experiment or set of prototypes and has grown leaps and bounds from it's roots and it's, it's fantastic. Yeah. >>Controlled planes are hot data planes control planes. >>I >>Know, I love it. Making things work together horizontally scalable. Yeah. Sounds like cloud cloud native. >>Yeah. I mean, just to add to it, there are a couple of talks that on KCP at Con that our colleagues s Stephan Schemanski has, and I, I, I would urge people who have listening, if they have, just Google it, if you will, and you'll get them. And those are really awesome talks to get more about >>It. Oh yeah, no, and you can tell on GitHub that KCP really is a community project and how many people are participating. It's always fun to watch the action live to. Sure. Andy, thank you so much for being here with us, John. Wonderful questions this afternoon. And thank all of you for tuning in and listening to us here on the Cube Live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson. Look forward to seeing you again very soon.

The Cube Presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>I Ready, Dave Ante with David Nicholson. We're back at UI Path forward. Five. We're getting ready for the big guns to come in, the two co CEOs, but we have a really special analyst panel now. We're excited to have Daniel Newman here. He's the Principal analyst at Future and Research. And Andy Dai, who's the Vice president and Principal Analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, good to see you. Thanks for making some time to come on the queue. >>Glad to be here. Always >>Good. So, >>Andy, you're deep into ai. You and I have been talking about having you come to our maor office. I'm, I'm really excited that we're able to meet here. What have you seen at the show so far? What are your big takeaways? You know, day one and a half? >>Yeah, well, so first of all, I'm d AI because my last name has AI and I >>Already talk about, >>So, but, but all jokes aside, there are a lot of good things I heard from the conference, right? I mean, one is the last two years because of the pandemic, the growth has been phenomenal for, for a lot of those robotic automation intelligent automation companies, right? So because the low hanging through position making processes have been already taken care of where they going to find the next growth spot, right? That was the question I was looking answers to. And they have some inverse, one good acquisition. They had intelligent document processing, but more importantly they're trying to move from detrimental rules based RPA automation into AI based, more probabilistic subjective decision making areas. That's a huge market, tons of money involved in it, but it's going to be a harder problem to solve. Love to see the execut. >>Well, it's also a big pivot for the, for the company. It started out as sort of a a point product and now is moving to, to platform. But to end of the macro is not in UI pass favor. It's not really in any, you know, tech company's favor, but especially, you know, a company that's going into a transition transitioning to go to market cetera. What are you seeing, what's your take on the macro? I mean, I know you follow the financial markets very closely. There's a lot of negative sentiment right now. Are you as negative as the sentiment? >>Well, the, the broad sentiment comes with some pretty good historical data, right? We've had probably one of the worst market years in multiple decades. And of course we're coming into a situation where all the, the factors are really not in our favor. You've got in interest rates climbing, you've got wildly high inflation, you've had a, you know, helicopters dumping money on the economy for a period of time. And we're, we're gonna get into this great reset is what I keep talking about. But, you know, I had the opportunity to talk to Bill McDermott recently on one of my shows and Bill's CEO of ServiceNow, in case anybody there doesn't know, but >>Former, >>Yeah, really well spoken guy. But you know, him and I kind of went back and forth and we came up with this kind of concept that we were gonna have to tech our way out of what's about to come. You can almost be certain recession is gonna come. But for companies like UiPath, I actually think there's a tremendous opportunity because the bottom line is companies are gonna be looking at their bottom line. A year ago it was all about growth a deal, like the Adobe Figma deal would've been, been lauded, people would've been excited. Now everybody's looking at going, how are they paying that price? Everybody's discounting the future growth. They're looking at the situation, say, what's gonna happen next? Well, bottom line is now they're looking at that. How profitable are we? Are you making money? Are you growing that bottom line? Are you creating earnings? We're >>Gonna come in >>Era, we're gonna come into an era where companies are gonna say, you know what? People are expensive. The inflationary cost of hiring is expensive. You know, what's less expensive? Investing in the cloud, investing in ai, investing in workflow and automation and things that actually enable businesses to expand, keep costs somewhat contained fixed costs, and scale their businesses and get themselves in a good position for when the economy turns to return to >>Grow. So since prior to the pandemic cloud containers, m l and RPA slash automation have been the big four that from a spending data standpoint have been above the line above all kind of the rest in terms of spending momentum up until last quarter, AI and RPA slash automation declined. So my question is, are those two areas discretionary or more discretionary than other technology investments you heard? >>Well, I, I think we're in a, a period where companies are, I won't say they've stopped spending, but you listened to Mark Benioff, you talked about the elongated sales cycle, right? I think companies right now are being very reflective and they're doing a lot of introspection. They're looking at their business and saying, We hired a lot of people. We hired really fast. Do we need to cut? Do we need to freeze? We've made investments in technology, are we getting a return on 'em? We all know that the analytics, whether it's you know, digital adoption platforms or just analytics in the business, say, What is all this money we've been spending doing for us and how productive are we? But I will tell you universally, the companies are looking at workflow automations that enable things. Whether that's onboarding customers, whether that's delivering experiences, whether that's, you know, full, you know, price to quote technologies, automate, automate, automate. By doing that, they're gonna bring down the cost, they're gonna control themselves as best as possible in a tough macro. And then when they come out of it, these processes are gonna be beneficiary in a, in a growth environment even more so, >>Andy UiPath rocketed to a leadership position, largely due to the, the product and the simplicity of the product relative to the competition. And then as you well know, they expanded into, you know, platform. So how do you see the competitive environment? A UI path is again focusing on that platform play Automation Anywhere couldn't get to public market. They had turnover at the go to market level. Chris Riley joined a lot of, lot of hope left Microsoft joined into the fray, obviously is having an impact that you're certainly seeing spending momentum around Microsoft. Then SAP service Now Salesforce, every software company the planet thinks they should get every dollar spent on software. You know, they, they see UI pass momentum and they say, Hey, we can, we can take some of that off the table. How do you see the competitive environment right now? >>So first of all, in in my mind, UI path is slightly better because of a couple of reasons. One, as you said, it's ease of use. >>They're able to customize it variable to what they want. So that's a real easy development advantage. And then the, when you develop the bots and equal, it takes on an average anywhere between two to maybe six weeks, generally speaking, in some industries regulated government might take more so that it's faster, quicker, easier than others in a sense. So people love using that. The second advantage of what they have in my mind is that not only they are available as a managed SA solution on, on cloud, on Azure Cloud, but also they have this version that you can install, maintain, manage any way you want, whether it's a public cloud or, or your own data center and so on so forth. That's not available with almost, not all of them have it, Few have it, but not all of the competitors have it. So they have an advantage there as well. Where it could become useful would be one of the areas that they haven't even expanded is the government. >>Government is the what, >>Sorry? The government. Yeah, related solutions, right? Defense, government, all of those areas when you go, which haven't even started for various reasons. For example, they're worried about laying off people, worried about cost, worried about automating things. There's a lot of hurdles to overcome. But once you overcome that, if you want to go there, nobody's going to use, or most of them will be very of using something on the cloud. So they have a solution for version variation of that. So they are set up to come to that next level. I mean, I don't know if you guys were at the keynote, the CEO talked about how their plans to go from 1 billion to 5 billion in ar. So they're set up to capture the market. But again, as you said, every big software company saw their momentum, they want to get into it, they want to compete with them. So >>Well, to get to 5 billion, they've gotta accelerate growth. I mean, if you do 20% cer over the next, you know, through the end of the decade, they don't quite get there. So they're gonna have to, you know, they lowered their forecast out of the high 20 or mid twenties to 18%. They're gonna have to accelerate that. And we've seen that before. We see it in cloud where cloud, you know, accelerates growth even though you got the lower large numbers. Go ahead Dave. >>Yeah, so Daniel, then how do we, how do we think of this market? How do we measure the TAM for total addressable market for automation? I mean, you know, what's that? What's that metric that shows how unautomated are we, how inefficient are we? Is there a, is there a 5% efficiency that can be gained? Is there a 40% efficiency that can be gained? Because if you're talking about, you know, how much much of the market can UI path capture, first of all, how big is the market? And then is UI path poised to take advantage of that compared to the actual purveyors of the software that people are interacting with? I'm interacting with an E R p, an ER P system that has built into it the ability to automate processes. Then why do I need 'EM UI path? So first, how do you evaluate TAM? Second, how do you evaluate whether UI Path is gonna have a chance in this market where RPAs built into the applications that we actually use? Yeah, >>I think that TAM is evolving, and I don't have it in front of me right now, but what I'll tell you about the TAM is there's sort of the legacy RPA tam and then there's what I would sort of evolve to call the IPA and workflow automation tam that is being addressed by many of these software companies that you asked in the competitive equation. In the, in the, in the question, what we're seeing is a world where companies are gonna say, if we can automate it, we will automate it. That's, it's actually non-negotiable. Now, the process in the ability to a arrive at automation at scale has long been a battle front within the nor every organization. We've been able to automate things for a long time. Why has it more been done? It's the same thing with analytics. There's been numerous studies in analytics that have basically shown companies that have been able to embrace, adopt, and implement analytics, have significantly better performances, better performances on revenue growth, better performances and operational cost management, better performances with customer experience. >>Guess what? Not everybody, every company can get to this. Now there's a couple of things behind this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to close my answer out cause I'm getting a little long winded here. But the first thing is automation is a cultural challenge in most organizations. We've done endless research on companies digitally transforming and automating their business. And what we've found is largely the technology are somewhat comparable. Meaning, you know, I, I've heard what he is saying about some of the advantages of partnership with Microsoft, very compelling. But you know what, all these companies that have automation offerings, whether it's you know, through a Salesforce, Microsoft, whether it's a specialized rpa like an Automation Anywhere or a UI path, their solutions can be deployed and successful. The company's ability to take the investment, implement it successfully and get buy in across the organization tends to always be the hurdle. An old CIO stat, 50% of IT projects fail. That stat is still almost accurate today. It's not 50% of technology is bad, but those failures are because the culture doesn't get behind it. And automation's a tricky one because there's a lot of people that feel on the outside rather than the inside of an automation transformation. >>So, Andy, so how do you think about the, to Dave's question, the SAPs the service nows trying to, you know, at least take some red crumbs off the table. They, they're gonna, they're gonna create these automation stove pipes, but in Automation Anywhere or, or UI path is a horizontal play, are they not? And so how do you think about that progression? Well, so >>First of all, all of this other companies, when they, they, whether it's a build, acquire, what have you, these guys already have what, five, seven years on them. So it's gonna be difficult for them to catch up with the Center of Excellence knowledge on the use cases, what they got to catch up with them. That's gonna be a lot of catch up. Just to give you an idea, Microsoft Power Automate has been there for a while, right? They're supposedly doing well as well, but they still choose to partner with the UiPath as well to get them to the next level. So there's going to be competition coming from all areas, but it's, it's about, you know, highlights. >>So, so who is the competition? Is it Microsoft chipping away an individual productivity? Is it a service now? Who's got a platform play? Is it themselves just being able to execute >>All plus also, but I think the, the most, I wouldn't say competition, but it's more people are not aware of what areas need to be automated, right? For example, one of the things I was talking about with a couple of customers is, so they have a automation hub where you can put the, the process and and task that need to be automated and then you prioritize and start working on it. And, and almost all of them that I speak to, they keep saying that most of the process and task identification that they need to do for automation, it's manual right now. So, which means it's limited, you have to go and execute it. When people find out and tell you that's what need to be fixed, you try to go and fix that. But imagine if there is a way, I mean the have solutions they're showcasing now if it becomes popular, if you're able to identify tasks that are very inefficient or or process that's very inefficient, automatically score them up saying that, you know what, this is what is going to be ROI and you execute on it. That's going to be huge. So >>I think ts right, there's no shortage of, of a market. I would, I would agree with you Rob Sland this morning talked about the progression. He sort of compared it to e R P of the early days. I sort of have a love hate with E R P cuz of the complexity of the implementation and the, and the cost. However, first of all, a couple points and I love to get your thoughts for you. If you went back, I know 25 years, you, you wouldn't have been able to pick SAP out of a lineup and say that's gonna be the leader in E R P and they ended up, you know, doing really, really well. But the more interesting angle is if you could have figured out the customers that were implementing e r p in, in a really high quality fashion, those are the companies that really did well. You buy their stocks, they really took off cuz they were killing their other industry competitors. So, fast forward to automation. Will automation live up to its hype and your opinion, will it be as transformative and will the, the practitioners of automation see the same type of uplift in their markets, in their market caps, in their competitiveness as did sort of the early adopters and the excellent adopters of brp? What are your thoughts? Well, >>I think it's an interesting comparison. Maybe answer it slightly different way. I think the future is that automation is a non-negotiable in every enterprise organization. I think if you're a large organization, we have absolutely filled our, our organizations with waste too much overhead, too much expense, too much technical debt and automation is an answer. This is the way we want to interact, right? We want a chat bot that actually gives us good answers that can answer on a Tuesday at 11:00 PM at night when we want to know if the right dog food, you know, and I'm saying that, you know, that's what we want. That's the outcome we want. And businesses have to be driven by the outcome. Here's what I'm not sure about, Dave, is we have an era where over the last three to five years, a lot of products have become companies and a lot of 'EM products became companies ended up in public markets. >>And so the RPA space is one of those areas that got this explosive amount of growth. And you look at it and there's two ways. Is this horizontally a business rpa or is this going to be something that's gonna be a target of those Microsofts and those SAPs and say, Look, we need hyper automation to be deeply integrated at the E R P crm, hcm SCM level. We're gonna build by this or we're gonna build this. And you're already hearing it in the partnerships, but this is how I think the story ends. I I think either the companies like UiPath get much bigger, they get much more rounded in their, in their offerings. Or you're gonna have a large company like a Microsoft come in and say, you know what? Buy it rather >>Than build can they can, they can, can this company, maybe not so much here, but can a company like Automation Anywhere stay acquisition? Well, >>I use the, I use the Service now as an, as a parallel because they're a company that I thought would always end up inside of a bigger company and now you're like, I think they're too big. I think they've they've dropped >>That, that chart. Yeah, they're acquisition proof. I would agree. But these guys aren't yet Nora's automation. They work for >>A while and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes getting bit bought is good, but what I mean is it's gonna be core and these big companies know it cuz they're all talking >>About, but as independent analysts, we want to see independent companies. >>I wanna see the right thing. >>It just makes it fun. >>The right thing >>Customers. Yeah, but you know, okay, Oracle buy more customers, more >>Customers. >>I'm kidding. Yeah, I guess it's the right thing. It just makes it more fun when you have really good independent competitors that >>We >>Absolutely so, and, and spend way more on r and d than these big companies who spend a lot more on stock buyback. But I know you gotta go. Thanks so much for spending some time, making time for Cube Andy. Great to see you. Good to see as well. All right, we are wrapping up day one, Dave Blan and Dave Nicholson live. You can hear the action behind us, forward in five on the Cube, right back.

>>Welcome back to Boston. Everybody watching the cubes coverage, OFS reinforce 22 from Boston, Atlanta chow lobster, the SOS a ruin in my summer, Andy and Smith is here is the CMO of laminar. Andy. Good to see you. Good >>To see you. Great to be >>Here. So laminar came outta stealth last year, 2021, sort of, as we were exiting the isolation economy. Yeah. Why was laminar started >>Really about there's there's two mega trends in the industry that, that created a problem that wasn't being addressed. Right? So the two mega trends was cloud transformation. Obviously that's been going on for a while, but what most people doesn't don't realize is it really accelerated with COVID right? Being all, everybody having to be remote, et cetera, various stats I've read like increased five times, right? So cloud transformation are now you are now problem, right? That's going on? And then the other next big mega trend is data democratization. So more data in the cloud than ever before. And this is, this is just going and going and going. And the result of those two things, more data in the cloud, how am I securing that data? You know, the, the, the breach culture we're in like every day, a new, a new data breach coming up, et cetera, just one Twitter, one yesterday, et cetera. The, those two things have caused a gap with data security teams and, and that's what he >>Heard at attract. Yeah. So, you know, to your point and we track this stuff pretty carefully quarterly, and you saw, it was really interesting trend. You actually saw AWS's growth rate accelerate during the pandemic. Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. So you're talking about, you know, a couple of hundred billion dollars for the big four clouds. If you, if you include Alibaba and it's still growing at 35, you know, 40% a year, which is astounding, so, okay. So more cloud, more data. Explain why that's a, a problem for practitioners. >>Yeah, exactly. The reality is in, in the security, what, what are we doing? What all the security it's about protecting your data in the end, right? Like, like we're here at this at, at reinforce all these security vendors here really it's about protecting your data, your sensitive data. And, but what, what had been happening is all the focus was on the infrastructure, the network, et cetera, et cetera, and not as much focus, particularly on the data and, and the move to the cloud gave the developers and the data scientists, way more power. They don't longer have to ask for permission. And so they can just do what they want. And it's actually wonderful for the business. The business is moving faster, you spin up applications sooner, you get new, new insights. So all those things are really great, but because the developer has so much power, they can just copy data over here, make a backup over here, new et cetera. And, and security has no idea about all these copies of the, of the data that are out there. And they're typically not as well protected as that main production source. And that's the gap that >>Exists. Okay. So there was this shift from sort of perimeter hardening the perimeter, hardening the infrastructure and, and now your premises, it's moving to the data we saw when, when there was during the pandemic, there was definitely a shift to end point security. There was a shift to cloud security rethinking the network, but it was still a lot of, you know, kind of cha chasing the whackamole and people have talked about this is a data problem for years. Yeah. But it was, it's taken a while for, for companies, for the technology industry to, to come at it. You guys are one of the first, if not the first. Yeah. Why do you think it took so long? Is this cuz it's really hard. >>Yeah. I mean, it, it's hard. You need to focus on it. The, the traditional security has been around the network and the box, right. And those are still necessary. It's important to, you know, your use identity to cover the edge, to, to make sure people can't get into the box, but you also have to have data. So what, what happens is there's really good solutions for enterprise data security, looking at database, you know, technology, et cetera. There are good solutions for cloud infrastructure security. So the CSP of the world and the CWPP are protecting containers, you know, protecting the infrastructure. But there really wasn't much for cloud everything you build and run in the cloud. So basically your custom application, your custom applications in the IAS and PAs environments, there really wasn't anything solving that. And that's really where laminar is focused. >>Okay. So you guys use this term shadow data. We talk about shadow. It what's shadow data. >>Yeah. So what we're finding at a hundred percent of our customer environments and our POVs and talking to CISOs out there is that they have these shadow data assets and shadow data elements that they have no clue that existed. So here's the example. Everybody knows the main RDS database that is in production. And this is where, you know, our, our data is taken from. But what people don't realize is there's a copy of that. You know, in a dev environment, somebody went to run a test and they was supposed to be there for two weeks. But then that developer left forgot, left it there. They left the company, oh, now it's been there for two years that there was an original SQL database left over from a lift and shift project. They got moved to RDS, but nobody deleted that thing there, you know, it's a database connected to an application, the application left, but that database, that abandoned database is still sitting. These are all real life customer examples of shadow data that we run into. And there's, and what the problem is that main production data store is secured pretty well. It's following all your policies, et cetera. But all these shadow data resources are typically less well protected unmonitored. And that is what the attackers are after. >>So you're, you know, the old, the, the Watergate follow the money, you're following the data, >>Following the data. >>How do you follow that data if there's so much of it, it, and it's, you know, sometimes, you know, not really well understood where it is. How do you know where >>It is? Yeah. It's the beauty of partnering with somebody like AWS, right? So with each of the cloud providers, we actually take a role in your cloud account and use the APIs from the cloud provider to see all the changes in all the instances are going on. Like it is, the problem is way more complicated in the cloud because I mean, AWS has over 200 services, dozens of ways to store data, right. It's wonderful for the developer, but it's very hard for the security practitioner. And so, because we have that visibility through the cloud provider's APIs, we can see all those changes that are happening. We can then say, ah, that's a data store. Let me go analyze, make a copy, have a snapshot of that and do the analyzing of that data right inside our customer's account without pulling the data out. And we have complete visibility to everything. And then we can give that data catalog over to the customer. >>All right. I gotta ask you a couple Colombo questions. So if you know, we talk about encryption, everything's encrypted everything. If, if the data is encrypted, why then would I need laminar? >>Because I mean, we'll make sure that the data's encrypted okay. Right. Often. So it's not supposed to be and not right. Two is, we're gonna tell you what type of data is inside there. Oh, is this, is this health information? Is it personal identify information? Is it credit cards? You know, et cetera, C so we'll classify the data for you. We will also, then there's things like retention, period. How long should we, I hold onto that data, all the things about what are, who has access, what's the exposure level for that data. And so when you, when you think about data security posture, what's the posture of that data you're looking at at those data policies. It's something that has been very well defined and written down. But in the past, there was just no way to go verify that those, that, that, that policy is actually being followed. And so we're doing that verification automatically. >>So without the context, you can't answer those other questions. So you make sure it's encrypted. If it's not, or you can at least notify me that it's not, you don't do the encryption. Right. Or do you, >>We don't do it ourselves, but we can give you here. Here's the command in and the Amazon to go encrypt it >>Right. Then I can automate that. And then the classification is key because now you're telling me the context. So I can say, okay, apply this policy to that data, retain it for this long, get rid of it after X number of years, or if it's work, process, get rid of it now. Yeah. And then who should have access to that data. And so you can help at least inform how to enforce those policies. >>Exactly. And so we, we, we call it guided remediation because what we're, you know, talking to a CISO, they're like, I need 400 more alerts, like a hole in the head like that. Doesn't do me any good. If you can't tell me how to resolve the, the, the, this security gap that I have or this, then it doesn't do any good. And, and the first, first it starts with who do I need to go talk to? Right. So they have hundreds, if not thousands of developers. Oh, great. You found this issue. I, I, I don't know who to go. Like, I can't just delete it myself, but I need to go talk to somebody really, should this be deleted? We need, do we really, really need to hold onto this? So we, we help guide who the data owner is. So we give you who to talk to. You, give you all the context. Here's the data, here's the data asset that it's in. Here's our suggestion. Here's the problem. Here's our suggestion for >>Solution. And you started the company on AWS >>Started on AWS. Absolutely. >>So what's of course it's best cloud and why not start there? So what's the relationship like, I mean, how'd you get started? You said, okay, Hey, we're we got an idea for a company. We're gonna build it on AWS. We're gonna become a customer. We're gonna, you know, >>We actually, so insight partners is our main investor. Yeah. And they were very helpful in giving us access to literally hundreds of CSOs, who we had conversations with before we actually launched the company. And so we did some shifting and to, to figure out our exact use case. But by the time we came to market, it was in February this year, we actually GAed the product that, where like product market fit nailed because we'd had so many conversations that we knew the problem in the market that we needed to solve. And we knew where we needed to solve it first. And, and the, the, the relationship we AWS is great. We just got on the marketplace, just became a, a partner. So really good. Good >>Start. So I gotta ask you, so I always ask this question. So how do you actually know when you have product market fit? >>You it's about those conversations. Right. You know, so like, I I've been to lots of startups and sometimes you're you're, you, you each have a conversation and then they, they saying, oh, well kind of want this. And we kind of like that. And so it, the more conversations you have, the more, you know, you're solving a real problem. Right. And, and, and, and, and you re react to what that, what that prospect is telling you back and, or that advisor or that whoever we're talking to. And, and every single one of the CISO conversations we had was I don't have a good inventory of my data in the cloud. >>The reason I asked that, cause I always ask the startups, like, when do you scale? Cause I think startups sometimes scale too fast. They try to scale too fast, they'll hire 50 sales people. And then they, you know, churn, you know, they, they got a 50% churn, but they're trying to optimize their go to market when they got 50% of their customers are gonna leave. So it's, it's gotta be the sequential thing. So, so you got product market fit. So are, are you in the scaling phase >>Now? We are. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now it's about how quickly can we deliver? We, we we're ramping customer base significantly. And, and you know, we've got a whole go to market team in, you know, sales and marketing in the us and, and often off to the races >>And you just run on AWS or you run another clouds. >>It's multi-cloud so AWS, Azure, GCP, et cetera. >>Okay. So then my least my next question is it sort of, you can do this within each of the individual clouds today. Do you see a day and maybe it's here today is where you can create a single experience across those clouds >>Today. It's a single experience across cloud. So our SaaS, we have our SaaS portion runs in AWS, but the actual data analysis runs in each cloud provider. So AWS, Azure, GCP and snowflake too, actually. >>Ah, okay. So I come through your whatever portal, like if I can use that term. Yep. And that's running on AWS. Yes. You're SAS, as you say, and then you go out to these other environments, GCP, Azure, AWS itself, and snowflake. Yep. And I see laminar, is that right? Or >>There's a piece running inside our customer's environment. Okay. So, so we have a customer, they, the, we have, we get a role inside of their cloud account or read only role inside of their cloud account. And we spin up serverless functions in that cloud account. That's where all the analysis happens. And that's why we don't take any data out of the environment. So it all stays there. And, and therefore we don't, we don't actually see the data outside of the environment. Like, I, I can tell you there's a metadata comes out. I can tell you, there are credit cards inside that data store, but I can't tell you exactly which credit card it is cuz I don't know. So all the important actions happens are there and just the metadata metadata comes out. So we can give you a cross cloud dashboard of all your sensitive data. >>And of course, so take the example of snowflake. They're going across clouds, they're building what we call super cloud sort of, of a layer that floats on top. You're just sort of going wherever that data goes. >>Yeah, exactly. So, so each of there's a component that lives in the customer's environment in the, in those multi-cloud environments and then a single view of the world dashboard that is our SaaS component that runs an AWS. So >>You guys are, is, am I correct? You're series a funded >>Series, a funded yeah, exactly. >>And, and already scaling to go to market. Yeah. Which is, which is early to scale. Right. I mean you've got startup experience. Right? >>Absolutely. >>How does it compare? >>Well, what was amazing here was access. I mean, really it was through the relationship with insight. It was access to the CISOs that I had never had at any of the other startups I was with. You're trying to get meetings, you're meeting with a lot of practitioners, you know, et cetera. But getting all those conversations with buyers was, was super valuable for us to say, ah, I know I'm solving a real problem that has value that they will pay for. Right. And, and, and so that, that was a year and a half probably still of all that work going on. We just, just waited to GA until we understood the market >>Better. Yeah. Insight. They're amazing. The way to talk about scaling. I mean, they've just the last 10 years that comp that, that PE firm has just gone wild in terms of just their, their philosophy, their approach, their cadence, their consistency. And now of course their portfolio. >>Yeah. And, and they started doing a little bit earlier and earlier stage. I mean, I, I always think of them as PE too, but you know, they, they did our seed round. Right. They did our a round and, and they're doing earlier stages, but particularly what they saw in Laar was exactly what we started this conversation with. They saw cloud transformation speeding up, they saw data democratization happening. They're like, we need to invest in this now because this is a now a problem to solve. >>Yeah. It's interesting. Cuz when you go back even pre 2010, you talk to, you know, look at insight, they would wait. They would invest in companies unless there was, you know, on the way to five plus million dollar ARR, they weren't doing seed deals. Totally. Like they saw, wow, these actually can be pretty lucrative and we can play and we have a point of view and yeah. So cool. Well, congratulations. I'll give you the final word. What, what should we be watching for from, from Laar as sort of, you know, milestones that you guys want to hit and, and indicators of success. >>Yeah. Now it's all about growth partnerships, you know, integrations with, with other of the players out here. Right. And so, you know, like scaling our AWS partnership is one of the key aspects for us. And so, you know, just look for, look for the name out there and, and you'll start, you'll start to see it a lot more. And, and if, if you have the need, you know, come look us up. Laar security.com. >>Awesome. Well thanks very much for coming to Cuban. Good luck. Appreciate it. All right. >>Wonderful. Thanks. You're >>Welcome. All right. Keep it right there, everybody. This is Dave ante. We'll be back right after this short break from AWS reinvent 2022 in Boston. You're watching the cue.

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Welcome back to the Cube's day one coverage of HPE discover 2022 live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave ante. We've got a couple of guests here with us next, gonna be talking about industry transformation, please. Welcome, brought off director of global industry and sustainability marketing and Andy Hulk, halter senior director at worldwide industry sales programs, guys from HPE. Thanks for joining us. You bet. >>Thank you for having to >>Be here, >>Industry transformation. That's a big term. It's not a new concept, but we see so much going on. Andy, talk to you about industry transformation, from your perspective, where are customers, how are they capitalizing to really make data a true currency? >>Right? Well, underlying all this is, is the data that is becoming so complex, but at the same time, there's specialization required in each industry with the different applications that the industries are running and our ability to bring that forward and connect all those things is a big trend going on. And as we see that developing over time, um, we're getting more, um, connecting those different applications that are running is becoming more, uh, every day we're doing more of that. >>One more. >>So where do you wanna start? What's your favorite industry to, to transform? Uh, I mean, financial services is, you know, got the right, the whole blockchain thing going on, uh, industry 4.0 and manufacturing, you know, retail, everybody has, uh, you know, an Amazon war room, you know, energy now with EVs and, and solar and everything else and the price of oil. And, and now you throw in inflation and supply chain and you, I mean, it's just, every industry is getting disrupted. I, I wanna make an observation. You guys tell me what you think. Yeah. You know, think about the, the incumbent industries. They, they generally have data at the outskirts. It's all siloed and they're trying to put it at the core and that's a big challenge for them. What are you guys seeing in terms of who is having success with that? Do you have examples? What role do you play? Yeah, we have so much to talk about, right? Yeah. >>Yeah. Let me I'll jump in here. Um, I mean, I think one of the unique ideas is all this interest industries you mentioned, there are all trying to learn from each other, right? If you're a financial institution, you wanna understand what retail is doing because you wanna serve your customers better. Right. You wanna look at, you know, some of these technologies, how they're being applied. Um, you look about like sustainability industries are trying to learn how to do that better from each other. So there's this notion of industry and transformation is it's kind of twofold. It's one. How are these industries almost like entering new markets? I mean, you look at, at all the tech, tech companies out there, they're all getting in into payments, for example. Right. You know, Google pay app. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that's just like one example of where you're seeing the kind of, that, that blurring of lines between industries happening >>Content, uh, Amazon getting into grocery. And so in, in the premises, that data is the enabler. I mean, right. For decades, we've seen a, a, a stack, a vertical stack within an industry where, yeah. Where, whether it's, you know, research and development, manufacturing, sales, and distribute marketing, you were in that industry stuck for life. Right. And now all of a sudden data allows you to traverse industries. Yeah. This dual disruption agenda that you mentioned, right? >>Yeah. It's, it's, it's really, as it's core is because these companies have the ability to take advantage of that data even more. And they're trying to serve their customers even better that that's kind of opening up these new doors for them to, to do that because that's, you know, and again, there's so many good examples out there. Uh, automobile manufacturing are looking towards the gaming industry, you know, to how do they design controls, you know, that kind of stuff is, you know, as example. So you see, you know, all kinds of that. You mentioned also that, you know, everybody's trying to bring the data to the core. I don't, I don't think that's necessarily true. I think you heard earlier today in the keynote, you know, that that companies want to be able to, to take advantage of the data, data, wherever it is. Um, if it's the edge and a factory floor, if it's in a, you know, it's patient data sitting somewhere, you want to, you know, handle it where it is, and there's a cost to doing that, to bring it all >>Together. Yeah. So by the way, I wanna clarify you're absolutely right. The data by its very nature is distributed. Sure. When I say core, I mean, put it at the core of their business. Sure. That's >>What, I mean, >>Fair enough by data first, but your point is really, we're gonna talk about that. Yeah. Because it brings, brings so many other challenges with how you deal with that. But please jump in Lisa. Yeah. >>I was just gonna ask you, Brad, you talk about the blurred lines between industries. Yeah. And talk to us about how is HPE a facilitator of those industries learning from each other. You have such breadth in so many different industries as Dave mentioned, but how are you that enabler, if you will, of allowing them to, to be able to have data be that key. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it just comes through the experience of working with these customers, um, you know, in these various industries. And then, um, there's so many times where customers come to us and they want us brief and again, they wanna learn for these other industries. So we're an aggregator of that technology. We obviously UN understand the technology with the cloud or, you know, edge or, you know, anything we're doing in with data. So we're using those, you know, those lessons and just applying those out there, um, you know, to those industries. So it's, I think it's just us as an aggregator. >>You, you, how how's the customer experience changing any we heard from home Depot this morning, they were focused on the customer experience and, and their associate experience. Right? Yeah. Bringing those together maybe. >>Well, you know, what we also heard this morning is the different personas, right. That are out there and being that are looking to transform their business. Yeah. And each of those personas is still linked together by the data, but they want to use it in different ways with different applications and the ability to connect all those things. Again, they're learning from each industry. So what home Depot learns about their mobile apps, maybe something that we can deploy in, uh, manufacturing, um, as far as locating things on the floor and connecting the edge data in, bring it in to, and then use that to analyze, use AI models, to do predictive behavior, uh, preventative maintenance, all these things are similar uses of connecting the data, but then applying to the specific industry use case. Yeah. And that pivot of that horizontal use of the data into those specific demands by, uh, at the personas within the, the, the different industries is what we're, we're >>Focused on. Yeah. And the technology is like an accelerate, you know, here. So you're think about like something like 5g, right. 5g is gonna accelerate, you know, a lot of transformation in various industries. Um, throughout that, I mean, tech, you know, the technology alone is not really what the, the, the customer cares about it. They, they care about what do I do with that? What kind of outcome can I get? Right. >>I wanna ask you, Andy, about the customer conversations, you talked about the personas, we've been talking about data democratization for a very long time. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> obviously is a challenging thing to do, but how were you seeing customer conversations, change and evolve, especially over the last couple of years where every L B has to have access to data and be a driver of its value. >>Right. Well, the customer, you know, historically H HP's, uh, background is in infrastructure and we've served industries in the data center for a legacy, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but now they're saying it's more, you know, I've gotta talk to, uh, more people in my business as a data center owner, I've gotta serve these folks, understand their business. And as a supplier, to me, you need to understand them as well. And sometimes help me with that conversation and help me see the things to make those connections that I may not know as a data, you know, as a, as an it professional. Um, and how do we challenge the business to think about different ways of doing things in the industry? So how do we, we think about, um, you know, bringing those connections from other industries in, and, and, uh, uncovering, uh, opportunities or problems anticipating problems in those deployments that they may not have seen by their staying in their swim lane. >>Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm touring on this topic because on the one hand, I think about the, the big data era and, and, and I know a, of, a lot of failures to, to return, you know, the expectations and it wasn't a fail fast. It took a decade, you know, to get there. And part of the failure domain was to your earlier point, Brett, everything was sort of shoved into this centralized location. Yeah. You have this hyper specialized data team, and everybody has to go through them, but organizations I think are now realizing it, like, like your thoughts on this, that data has to go out to the lines of business. It has to be contextualized. People are now talking about building data products and monetizing data. And yeah, that's really, to me what digital transformation is about. So, but generally speaking, most companies are not great at data. They have a lot of data. Yeah. A lot of, lot of data line around insights. I think we heard in the morning keynote are scarce. Right. So what's your vision for how this evolves? >>Yeah. I think, I think, you know, from the data perspective that again, the, at the core is how do I serve my customer better? Right. So, you know, whether that is actual, you know, customer data that you want to sort of up personalized offers for, or, you know, make decisions of, you know, medical decisions for their, you know, for their, you know, better patient outcomes. So if they keep that in mind, then, you know, as far as how it's used by the different lines of business there, you know, that's where we can help facilitate, you know, in many ways. And that's where, you know, cloud becomes a, you know, a really key technology, um, you know, having that flexibility to, to move it around as needed, create the, you know, um, deliver the workload where the customer needs it, that, you know, that sort of idea is, is where we're, we're going with this. >>I think, yeah. I'd, I'd like to give you an example, um, please, in the FSI industry, uh, out here on the floor, we've got a demo on payment systems, right. And we've been doing that, uh, with our nonstop, uh, product and supporting that, uh, in the, in the banking industry for 10 years or more. And it's evolved over time to be one of the, you know, it's a ubiquitous across the, in the support. Yeah. Um, but now we're talking about new regulations with all the global events that are going on, you know, crazy stuff that more pressure on the banks to, to comply with that, um, worries about money laundering and fraud prevention. Well, connecting those, the data from those payment systems into the AI modeling that is now being deployed to do more sophisticated fraud detection and Mon money laundering detection and all of those kinds of things, how you connect those together as an example, what we're seeing, how we get more insights by, uh, by the combination that we can bring together. >>And the insights is critical. Yes. Right. I mean, without it, the data isn't very useful. >>Right, right. Right. And I think even, you know, these, these concepts like swarm learning right. Where you're actually trying to aggregate a lot of those, you know, a lot of that data and, and provide, you know, even a broader data set to, to learn from is even, you know, more beneficial. >>I think the, when you think about the, the principles of this, this decentralized world, that's that it starts with an organization saying, look, we recognize that we can't shove it all into a data warehouse or a data hub or a single data lake. Yeah. We're gonna have all of those. And those are just kind of nodes in the mesh, like it's steel as Youma the GHI term <laugh> and, and, and, and increasingly data as product that can be monetized. We're hearing a lot more about this, and those are organizational yeah. Considerations. I mean, HPE can maybe facilitate that through whiteboard sessions, but, but the, that leads to, in order to, to democratize data, I need self-service infrastructure and I need data that can be shared and governed. I, I don't know about the last one, but you definitely are. Number three self-service infrastructure simplification. Yeah. Your version of cloud. How do you see that, uh, your, your role in that little vision that I just laid out? Do you buy that? >>You wanna take that or, >>Well, I, I think that we have, um, we definitely, because we, we see the data in all these different places and we're, we're trying to be agnostic to, um, you know, where it comes from, who owns it. It's how do you get it together and make it useful? And you don't have to capture it. You don't have to own it, but you may own some of it. You may borrow some of it. You may rent some of it. You may buy it and you may bring it together and they'll use it for the purpose. And then move on to expand into new things that you learn from that you may then monetize, um, in all those different ways. So we have a role of making that platform in a way that you can see it in different ways and use it consistently and repetitively and GRA gain more value of it, and then apply your applications and, you know, all those other things that you do. But that, that bringing together agnostically is a big part of our offering. >>And, and am I, am I not correct? I'm in my thinking on H HP's value is providing that infrastructure, uh, to be able to do just, just that that's your swim lane, if you will. And >>It is, but we're being asked to move up the stack and provide not only the infrastructure now, the platform, the ability to offer that platform, uh, in our HPE GreenLake offering where we're, we now can, you know, have cloud-like services on prem. It doesn't really matter where the data sits, um, and then plug in the applications and even manage those applications for the >>Customers. Okay. So, I mean, I see you as I, as, and Paz, which that up to stack yeah. The ability to, okay. I want whatever Python or open shift, I wanna build applications now on that. Interesting. The management piece is something I, I excluded, um, be because an organization may say, Hey, we need help managing this stuff. Right. But I see that, that I, as in pass, as infrastructure, you're not getting into applications where you're getting, you're not >>No other than letting, letting customers, you actually build on top of that. Right. Right. There's a >>Lot of customer, you're an enabler. >>Absolutely. Yeah. You look at some of the things we're doing with, you know, with our escrow platform and things like that. Right. You know, we're providing that development platform in a, in a really streamlined way of, of, you know, pushing, you know, applications out. I mean, little known fact, right. Is that most banks right now are hiring more developers right now than, than finance people. So all these, all these industries are becoming tech companies and that's, you know, that's the whole launch of the FinTech industry many years ago, and it's, you know, continued to evolve >>And they want to bring AI, they wanna bring data into their applications. And you, HPE I see is an enabler of >>That. Absolutely. Absolutely. >>Give us last question. As we wrap up here, give us the vision, like the next five years, what are some of the industry transformation elements you are forecasting if you have a crystal >>Ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think number one, just an increased focus on personalization and customization. Uh, you know, you look at, you know, personalized offers when you add location based services, things like that, combined 5g, you know, like all this technologies, you're seeing a lot of that custom manufacturing, so those kind of trends are gonna continue. And we know that's, you know, those are the workloads that we gotta, you know, know know is coming, you know, down the pike and, and, and address those. Um, secondly I think AI, right, AI is gonna, is gonna be, you know, it's gonna impact every industry in a big, big way. You know, when like Andy talked right about, you know, fraud detection, uh, you know, manufacturing, robotics, those kind of things. Uh, and then I think, um, you know, lastly, just, just this more convergence, you know, of these industries, right. You know, tech is just, you know, impacting everything in such a big way. And so you're gonna see more of that, that blurring of lines between, between industries. So they jump into jump outta their normal swim lanes. Right, right. >>Be between machine learning and AI, we're gonna see efficiencies by doing things better, with less, uh, deviations and driving, uh, lower cost. And we're gonna see new capabilities come to the forefront and that's gonna be consistent across all industries. And it's gonna be based on the data. Both of those require the models, you know, the data go in and drive their models. Do >>You think any industry is more ripe for disruption? I mean, timeframe wise, you got healthcare, you know, like I always wonder, you know, how is AI gonna help doctors make better diagnoses already is yeah. Will, will AI make the diagnoses? Yeah. You know, retail, I mentioned before, you know, energy, you know, government is changing entertainment, media entertainment is, do you see any industry patterns where one is being disrupted more than the other? >>When we talk to customers, every industry thinks their industry is not going fast enough. And so it's like, you know, I think everybody is just so hyper focused on, you know, what they are involved in and then their domain that, uh, you, you, depending on who you talk to. Yeah. I, you don't, everybody needs to do it faster, you know, more economically, um, and more efficiently. Right. And so >>I think, and they're all being disrupted now, too. Absolutely. It's not only have to do faster, but they've got to, um, transform to keep up with the demands of their >>Customer. Nobody's safe. >>Yeah. And the technology's just gonna continue to accelerate that. And that's the thing. And, and, and the market's becoming, you know, less forgiving as, as we go. So people have to react really, really fast in these markets, you know, and especially with all the other changes going on around us, uh, to, to actually, you know, make that impact. >>Interesting. I'm liking what's in this crystal ball. I'm gonna have to ask you guys for some cons after we wrap here. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining David, me talking about industry transformation, tremendous amount of, of transformation so far and so much to go. It's exciting to watch. >>Yeah. Appreciate it. >>Have an, we appreciate it for our guests and Dave ante. I, Lisa Martin, you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. You AP back after a short break.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. CUBE's coverage of re:MARS, here in Las Vegas, in person. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is the analyst panel wrap up analysis of the keynote, the show, past one and a half days. We got two great guests here. We got Andy Thurai, Vice President, Principal Consultant, Constellation Research. Larry Carvalho, Principal Consultant at RobustCloud LLC. Congratulations going out on your own. >> Thank you. >> Andy, great to see you. >> Great to see you as well. >> Guys, thanks for coming out. So this is the session where we break down and analyze, you guys are analysts, industry analysts, you go to all the shows, we see each other. You guys are analyzing the landscape. What does this show mean to you guys? 'Cause this is not obvious to the normal tech follower. The insiders see the confluence of robotics, space, automation and machine learning. Obviously, it's IoTs, industrials, it's a bunch of things. But there's some dots to connect. Let's start with you, Larry. What do you see here happening at this show? >> So you got to see how Amazon started, right? When AWS started. When AWS started, it primarily took the compute storage, networking of Amazon.com and put it as a cloud service, as a service, and started selling the heck out of it. This is a stage later now that Amazon.com has done a lot of physical activity, and using AIML and the robotics, et cetera, it's now the second phase of innovation, which is beyond digital transformation of back office processes, to the transformation of physical processes where people are now actually delivering remotely and it's an amazing area. >> So back office's IT data center kind of vibe. >> Yeah. >> You're saying front end, industrial life. >> Yes. >> Life as we know it. >> Right, right. I mean, I just stopped at a booth here and they have something that helps anybody who's stuck in the house who cannot move around. But with Alexa, order some water to bring them wherever they are in the house where they're stuck in their bed. But look at the innovation that's going on there right at the edge. So I think those are... >> John: And you got the Lunar, got the sex appeal of the space, Lunar Outpost interview, >> Yes. >> those guys. They got Rover on Mars. They're going to have be colonizing the moon. >> Yes. >> I made a joke, I'm like, "Well, I left a part back on earth, I'll be right back." (Larry and Andy laugh) >> You can't drive back to the office. So a lot of challenges. Andy, what's your take of the show? Take us your analysis. What's the vibe, what's your analysis so far? >> It's a great show. So, as Larry was saying, one of the thing was that when Amazon started, right? So they were more about cloud computing. So, which means is they try to commoditize more of data center components or compute components. So that was working really well for what I call it as a compute economy, right? >> John: Mm hmm. >> And I call the newer economy as more of a AIML-based data economy. So when you move from a compute economy into a data economy, there are things that come into the forefront that never existed before, never popular before. Things like your AIML model creation, model training, model movement, model influencing, all of the above, right? And then of course the robotics has come long way since then. And then some of what they do at the store, or the charging, the whole nine yards. So, the whole concept of all of these components, when you put them on re:Invent, such a big show, it was getting lost. So that's why they don't have it for a couple of years. They had it one year. And now all of a sudden they woke up and say, "You know what? We got to do this!" >> John: Yeah. >> To bring out this critical components that we have, that's ripe, mature for the world to next component. So that's why- I think they're pretty good stuff. And some of the robotics things I saw in there, like one of them I posted on my Twitter, it's about the robot dog, sniffing out the robot rover, which I thought was pretty hilarious. (All laugh) >> Yeah, this is the thing. You're seeing like the pandemic put everything on hold on the last re:Mars, and then the whole world was upside down. But a lot of stuff pulled forward. You saw the call center stuff booming. You saw the Zoomification of our workplace. And I think a lot of people got to the realization that this hybrid, steady-state's here. And so, okay. That settles that. But the digital transformation of actually physical work? >> Andy: Yeah. >> Location, the walk in and out store right over here we've seen that's the ghost store in Seattle. We've all been there. In fact, I was kind of challenged, try to steal something. I'm like, okay- (Larry laughs) I'm pulling all my best New Jersey moves on everyone. You know? >> Andy: You'll get charged for it. >> I couldn't get away with it. Two double packs, drop it, it's smart as hell. Can't beat the system. But, you bring that to where the AI machine learning, and the robotics meet, robots. I mean, we had robots here on theCUBE. So, I think this robotics piece is a huge IoT, 'cause we've been covering industrial IoT for how many years, guys? And you could know what's going on there. Huge cyber threats. >> Mm hmm. >> Huge challenges, old antiquated OT technology. So I see a confluence in the collision between that OT getting decimated, to your point. And so, do you guys see that? I mean, am I just kind of seeing mirage? >> I don't see it'll get decimated, it'll get replaced with a newer- >> John: Dave would call me out on that. (Larry laughs) >> Decimated- >> Microsoft's going to get killed. >> I think it's going to have to be reworked. And just right now, you want do anything in a shop floor, you have to have a physical wire connected to it. Now you think about 5G coming in, and without a wire, you get minute details, you get low latency, high bandwidth. And the possibilities are endless at the edge. And I think with AWS, they got Outposts, they got Snowcone. >> John: There's a threat to them at the edge. Outpost is not doing well. You talk to anyone out there, it's like, you can't find success stories. >> Larry: Yeah. >> I'm going to get hammered by Amazon people, "Oh, what're you're saying that?" You know, EKS for example, with serverless is kicking ass too. So, I mean I'm not saying Outpost was wrong answer, it was a right at the time, what, four years ago that came out? >> Yeah. >> Okay, so, but that doesn't mean it's just theirs. You got Dell Technologies want some edge action. >> Yeah. >> So does HPE. >> Yes. >> So you got a competitive edge situation. >> I agree with that and I think that's definitely not Amazon's strong point, but like everything, they try to make it easy to use. >> John: Yeah. >> You know, you look at the AIML and they got Canvas. So Canvas says, hey, anybody can do AIML. If they can do that for the physical robotic processes, or even like with Outpost and Snowcone, that'll be good. I don't think they're there yet, and they don't have the presence in the market, >> John: Yeah. >> like HPE and, >> John: Well, let me ask you guys this question, because I think this brings up the next point. Will the best technology win or will the best solution win? Because if cloud's a platform and all software's open source, which you can make those assumptions, you then say, hey, they got this killer robotics thing going on with Artemis and Moonshot, they're trying to colonize the moon, but oh, they discovered a killer way to solve a big problem. Does something fall out of this kind of re:Mars environment, that cracks the code and radically changes and disrupts the IoT game? That's my open question. I don't know the answer. I'd love to get your take on what might be possible, what wild card's out there around, disrupting the edge. >> So one thing I see the way, so when IoT came into the world of play, it's when you're digitizing the physical world, it's IoT that does digitalization part of that actually, right? >> But then it has its own set of problems. >> John: Yeah. >> You're talking about you installing sensor everywhere, right? And not only installing your own sensor, but also you're installing competitor sensors. So in a given square feet how many sensors can you accommodate? So there are physical limitations on liabilities of bandwidth and networking all of that. >> John: And integration. >> As well. >> John: Your point. >> Right? So when that became an issue, this is where I was talking to the robotic guys here, a couple of companies, and one of the use cases they were talking about, which I thought was pretty cool, is, rather than going the sensor route, you go the robot route. So if you have either a factor that you want to map out, you put as many sensors on your robot, whatever that is, and then you make it go around, map the whole thing, and then you also do a surveillance in the whole nine yards. So, you can either have a fixed sensors or you can have moving sensors. So you can have three or four robots. So initially, when I was asking them about the price of it, when they were saying about a hundred thousand dollars, I was like, "Who would buy that?" (John and Larry laugh) >> When they then explained that, this is the use case, oh, that makes sense, because if you had to install, entire factory floor sensors, you're talking about millions of dollars. >> John: Yeah. >> But if you do the moveable sensors in this way, it's a lot cheaper. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> So it's based on your use case, what are your use cases? What are you trying to achieve? >> The general purpose is over. >> Yeah. >> Which you're getting at, and that the enablement, this is again, this is the cloud scale open question- >> Yep. >> it's, okay, the differentiations isn't going to be open source software. That's open. >> It's going to be in the, how you configure it. >> Yes. >> What workflows you might have, the data streams. >> I think, John, you're bringing up a very good point about general purpose versus special purpose. Yesterday Zoox was on the stage and when they talked about their vehicle, it's made just for self-driving. You walk around in Vegas, over here, you see a bunch of old fashioned cars, whether they're Ford or GM- >> and they put all these devices around it, but you're still driving the same car. >> John: Yeah, exactly. >> You can retrofit those, but I don't think that kind of IoT is going to work. But if you redo the whole thing, we are going to see a significant change in how IoT delivers value all the way from the industrial to home, to healthcare, mining, agriculture, it's going to have to redo. I'll go back to the OT question. There are some OT guys, I know Rockwell and Siemens, some of them are innovating faster. The ones who innovate faster to keep up with the IT side, as well as the MLAI model are going to be the winners on that one. >> John: Yeah, I agree. Andy, your thoughts on manufacturing, you brought up the sensor thing. Robotics ultimately is, end of the day, an opportunity there. Obviously machine learning, we know what that does. As we move into these more autonomous builds, what does that look like? And is Amazon positioned well there? Obviously they have big manufacturers. Some are saying that they might want to get out of that business too, that Jassy's evaluating that some are saying. So, where does this all lead for that robotics manufacturing lifestyle, walk in, grab my food? 'Cause it's all robotics and AI at the end of the day, I got sensors, I got cameras, I got non-humans moving heavy lifting stuff, fixing the moon will be done by robots, not humans. So it's all coming. What's your analysis? >> Well, so, the point about robotics is on how far it has come, it is unbelievable, right? Couple of examples. One was that I was just talking to somebody, was explaining to them, to see that robot dog over there at the Boston Dynamics one- >> John: Yeah. >> climbing up and down the stairs. >> Larry: Yeah. >> That's more like the dinosaur movie opening the doors scene. (John and Larry laugh) It's like that for me, because the coordinated things, it is able to go walk up and down, that's unbelievable. But okay, it does that, and then there was also another video which is going on viral on the internet. This guy kicks the dog, robot dog, and then it falls down and it gets back up, and the sentiment that people were feeling for the dog, (Larry laughs) >> you can't, it's a robot, but people, it just comes at that level- >> John: Empathy, for a non-human. >> Yeah. >> But you see him, hey you, get off my lawn, you know? It's like, where are we? >> It has come to that level that people are able to kind of not look at that as a robot, but as more like a functioning, almost like a pet-level, human-level being. >> John: Yeah. >> And you saw that the human-like walking robot there as well. But to an extent, in my view, they are all still in an experimentation, innovation phase. It doesn't made it in the industrial terms yet. >> John: Yeah, not yet, it's coming. >> But, the problem- >> John: It's coming fast. That's what I'm trying to figure out is where you guys see Amazon and the industry relative to what from the fantasy coming reality- >> Right. >> of space in Mars, which is, it's intoxicating, let's face it. People love this. The nerds are all here. The geeks are all here. It's a celebration. James Hamilton's here- >> Yep. >> trying to get him on theCUBE. And he's here as a civilian. Jeff Barr, same thing. I'm here, not for Amazon, I bought a ticket. No, you didn't buy a ticket. (Larry laughs) >> I'm going to check on that. But, he's geeking out. >> Yeah. >> They're there because they want to be here. >> Yeah. >> Not because they have to work here. >> Well, I mean, the thing is, the innovation velocity has increased, because, in the past, remember, the smaller companies couldn't innovate because they don't have the platform. Now Compute is a platform available at the scale you want, AI is available at the scale. Every one of them is available at the scale you want. So if you have an idea, it's easy to innovate. The innovation velocity is high. But where I see most of the companies failing, whether startup or big company, is that you don't find the appropriate use case to solve, and then don't sell it to the right people to buy that. So if you don't find the right use case or don't sell the right value proposition to the actual buyer, >> John: Mm hmm. >> then why are you here? What are you doing? (John laughs) I mean, you're not just an invention, >> John: Eh, yeah. >> like a telephone kind of thing. >> Now, let's get into next talk track. I want to get your thoughts on the experience here at re:Mars. Obviously AWS and the Amazon people kind of combined effort between their teams. The event team does a great job. I thought the event, personally, was first class. The coffee didn't come in late today, I was complaining about that, (Larry laughs) >> people complaining out there, at CUBE reviews. But world class, high bar on the quality of the event. But you guys were involved in the analyst program. You've been through the walkthrough, some of the briefings. I couldn't do that 'cause I'm doing theCUBE interviews. What would you guys learn? What were some of the key walkaways, impressions? Amazon's putting all new teams together, seems on the analyst relations. >> Larry: Yeah. >> They got their mojo booming. They got three shows now, re:Mars, re:inforce, re:invent. >> Andy: Yeah. >> Which will be at theCUBE at all three. Now we got that coverage going, what's it like? What was the experience like? Did you feel it was good? Where do they need to improve? How would you grade the Amazon team? >> I think they did a great job over here in just bringing all the physical elements of the show. Even on the stage, where they had robots in there. It made it real and it's not just fake stuff. And every, or most of the booths out there are actually having- >> John: High quality demos. >> high quality demos. (John laughs) >> John: Not vaporware. >> Yeah, exactly. Not vaporware. >> John: I won't say the name of the company. (all laugh) >> And even the sessions were very good. They went through details. One thing that stood out, which is good, and I cover Low Code/No Code, and Low Code/No Code goes across everything. You know, you got DevOps No Low-Code Low-Code. You got AI Low Code/No Code. You got application development Low Code/No Code. What they have done with AI with Low Code/No Code is very powerful with Canvas. And I think that has really grown the adoption of AI. Because you don't have to go and train people what to do. And then, people are just saying, Hey, let me kick the tires, let me use it. Let me try it. >> John: It's going to be very interesting to see how Amazon, on that point, handles this, AWS handles this data tsunami. It's cause of Snowflake. Snowflake especially running the table >> Larry: Yeah. >> on the old Hadoop world. I think Dave had a great analysis with other colleagues last week at Snowflake Summit. But still, just scratching the surface. >> Larry: Yeah. >> The question is, how shared that ecosystem, how will that morph? 'Cause right now you've got Data Bricks, you've got Snowflake and a handful of others. Teradata's got some new chops going on there and a bunch of other folks. Some are going to win and lose in this downturn, but still, the scale that's needed is massive. >> So you got data growing so much, you were talking earlier about the growth of data and they were talking about the growth. That is a big pie and the pie can be shared by a lot of folks. I don't think- >> John: And snowflake pays AWS, remember that? >> Right, I get it. (John laughs) >> I get it. But they got very unique capabilities, just like Netflix has very unique capabilities. >> John: Yeah. >> They also pay AWS. >> John: Yeah. >> Right? But they're competing on prime. So I really think the cooperation is going to be there. >> John: Yeah. >> The pie is so big >> John: Yeah. >> that there's not going to be losers, but everybody could be winners. >> John: I'd be interested to follow up with you guys after next time we have an event together, we'll get you back on and figure out how do you measure this transitions? You went to IDC, so they had all kinds of ways to measure shipments. >> Larry: Yep. >> Even Gartner had fumbled for years, the Magic Quadrant on IaaS and PaaS when they had the market share. (Larry laughs) And then they finally bundled PaaS and IaaS together after years of my suggesting, thank you very much Gartner. (Larry laughs) But that just performs as the landscape changes so does the scoreboard. >> Yep. >> Right so, how do you measure who's winning and who's losing? How can we be critical of Amazon so they can get better? I mean, Andy Jassy always said to me, and Adam Salassi same way, we want to hear how bad we're doing so we can get better. >> Yeah. >> So they're open-minded to feedback. I mean, not (beep) posting on them, but they're open to critical feedback. What do you guys, what feedback would you give Amazon? Are they winning? I see them number one clearly over Azure, by miles. And even though Azure's kicking ass and taking names, getting back in the game, Microsoft's still behind, by a long ways, in some areas. >> Andy: Yes. In some ways. >> So, the scoreboard's changing. What's your thoughts on that? >> So, look, I mean, at the end of the day, when it comes to compute, right, Amazon is a clear winner. I mean, there are others who are catching up to it, but still, they are the established leader. And it comes with its own advantages because when you're trying to do innovation, when you're trying to do anything else, whether it's a data collection, we were talking about the data sensors, the amount of data they are collecting, whether it's the store, that self-serving store or other innovation projects, what they have going on. The storage compute and process of that requires a ton of compute. And they have that advantage with them. And, as I mentioned in my last article, one of my articles, when it comes to AIML and data programs, there is a rich and there is a poor. And the rich always gets richer because they, they have one leg up already. >> John: Yeah. >> I mean the amount of model training they have done, the billion or trillion dollar trillion parametrization, fine tuning of the model training and everything. They could do it faster. >> John: Yeah. >> Which means they have a leg up to begin with. So unless you are given an opportunity as a smaller, mid-size company to compete at them at the same level, you're going to start at the negative level to begin with. You have a lot of catch up to do. So, the other thing about Amazon is that they, when it comes to a lot of areas, they admit that they have to improve in certain areas and they're open and willing and listen to the people. >> Where are you, let's get critical. Let's do some critical analysis. Where does Amazon Websters need to get better? In your opinion, what criticism would you, in a constructive way, share? >> I think on the open source side, they need to be more proactive in, they are already, but they got to get even better than what they are. They got to engage with the community. They got to be able to talk on the open source side, hey, what are we doing? Maybe on the hardware side, can they do some open-sourcing of that? They got graviton. They got a lot of stuff. Will they be able to share the wealth with other folks, other than just being on an Amazon site, on the edge with their partners. >> John: Got it. >> If they can now take that, like you said, compute with what they have with a very end-to-end solution, the full stack. And if they can extend it, that's going to be really beneficial for them. >> Awesome. Andy, final word here. >> So one area where I think they could improve, which would be a game changer would be, right now, if you look at all of their solutions, if you look at the way they suggest implementation, the innovations, everything that comes out, comes out across very techy-oriented. The persona is very techy-oriented. Very rarely their solutions are built to the business audience or to the decision makers. So if I'm, say, an analyst, if I want to build, a business analyst rather, if I want to build a model, and then I want to deploy that or do some sort of application, mobile application, or what have you, it's a little bit hard. It's more techy-oriented. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> So, if they could appeal or build a higher level abstraction of how to build and deploy applications for business users, or even build something industry specific, that's where a lot of the legacy companies succeeded. >> John: Yeah. >> Go after manufacturing specific or education. >> Well, we coined the term 'Supercloud' last re:Invent, and that's what we see. And Jerry Chen at Greylock calls it Castles in the Cloud, you can create these moats >> Yep. >> on top of the CapEx >> Yep. >> of Amazon. >> Exactly. >> And ride their back. >> Yep. >> And the difference in what you're paying and what you're charging, if you're good, like a Snowflake or a Mongo. I mean, Mongo's, they're just as big as Snow, if not bigger on Amazon than Snowflake is. 'Cause they use a lot of compute. No one turns off their database. (John laughs) >> Snowflake a little bit different, a little nuanced point, but, this is the new thing. You see Goldman Sachs, you got Capital One. They're building their own kind of, I call them sub clouds, but Dave Vellante says it's a Supercloud. And that essentially is the model. And then once you have a Supercloud, you say, great, I'm going to make sure it works on Azure and Google. >> Andy: Yep. >> And Alibaba if I have to. So, we're kind of seeing a playbook. >> Andy: Mm hmm. >> But you can't get it wrong 'cause it scales. >> Larry: Yeah, yeah. >> You can't scale the wrong answer. >> Andy: Yeah. >> So that seems to be what I'm watching is, who gets it right? Product market fit. Then if they roll it out to the cloud, then it becomes a Supercloud, and that's pure product market fit. So I think that's something that I've seen some people trying to figure out. And then, are you a supplier to the Superclouds? Like a Dell? Or you become an enabler? >> Andy: Yeah. >> You know, what's Dell Technologies do? >> Larry: Yeah. >> I mean, how do the box movers compete? >> Larry: I, the whole thing is now hybrid and you're going to have to see just, you said. (Larry laughs) >> John: Hybrid's a steady-state. I don't need to. >> Andy: I mean, >> By the way we're (indistinct), we can't get the chips, cause Broadcom and Apple bought 'em all. (Larry laughs) I mean there's a huge chip problem going on. >> Yes. I agree. >> Right now. >> I agree. >> I mean all these problems when you attract to a much higher level, a lot of those problems go away because you don't care about what they're using underlying as long as you deliver my solution. >> Larry: Yes. >> Yeah, it could be significantly, a little bit faster than what it used to be. But at the end of the day, are you solving my specific use case? >> John: Yeah. >> Then I'm willing to wait a little bit longer. >> John: Yeah. Time's on our side and now they're getting the right answers. Larry, Andy, thanks for coming on. This great analyst session turned into more of a podcast vibe, but you know what? (Larry laughs) To chill here at re:Mars, thanks for coming on, and we unpacked a lot. Thanks for sharing. >> Both: Thank you. >> Appreciate it. We'll get you back on. We'll get you in the rotation. We'll take it virtual. Do a panel. Do a panel, do some panels around this. >> Larry: Absolutely. >> Andy: Oh this not virtual, this physical. >> No we're live right now! (all laugh) We get back to Palo Alto. You guys are influencers. Thanks for coming on. You guys are moving the market, congratulations. Take a minute, quick minute each to plug any work you're doing for the people watching. Larry, what are you working on? Andy? You go after Larry, what you're working on. >> Yeah. So since I started my company, RobustCloud, since I left IDC about a year ago, I'm focused on edge computing, cloud-native technologies, and Low Code/No Code. And basically I help companies put their business value together. >> All right, Andy, what are you working on? >> I do a lot of work on the AIML areas. Particularly, last few of my reports are in the AI Ops incident management and ML Ops areas of how to generally improve your operations. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> In other words, how do you use the AIML to improve your IT operations? How do you use IT Ops to improve your AIML efficiency? So those are the- >> John: The real hardcore business transformation. >> Yep. >> All right. Guys, thanks so much for coming on the analyst session. We do keynote review, breaking down re:Mars after day two. We got a full day tomorrow. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. See you next time. (pleasant music)

hello and welcome to the cube i'm dave nicholson chief technology officer at thecube and we're here for a very special cube conversation with andy brown from broadcom andy welcome to the cube tell us a little about yourself a little bit my about myself my name is andy brown i'm currently the senior director of software architecture and performance analysis here within the data center solutions group at broadcom i've been doing that for about seven years prior to that i held various positions within the system architecture systems engineering and ic development organization but ultimately as well i spent some time in our support organization and managing our support team but ultimately have landed in the architecture organization as well as performance analysis great so a lot of what you do is around improving storage performance tell us more about that so let me give you a brief history of uh storage from from my perspective um you know i as i mentioned i go back about 30 years in my career and that would have started back in the ncr microelectronics days and originally with parallel scuzzy so that would be if anyone would remember the 5380 controller which was one of the original parallel scuzzy controllers that existed and built by ncr microelectronics at the time i've i've seen the advent of parallel scuzzy a stint of fiber channel ultimately leading into the serialization of those of the scuzzy standard into sas as well as sata and then ultimately leading to nvme protocols and the advent of flash moving from hard drives into a flash based media and as well on on that's on the storage side on the host side moving from parallel interfaces isa if everybody could remember that moving to pci pci express that's where we land today so andy we're square in the middle of the era of both nvme and sas what kinds of challenges does that overlap represent well i think you know obviously we've seen sas around for a while it was the conversion from parallel into a serial attached scuzzy and that really sas brings with it the ability to uh connect on really a high number of devices um and uh was was kind of the original scaling of devices and and really uh also enabled uh was was one of the things that enabled flash based media given the the speed and performance that came to the table of course nvme came in as well with the promise of of even higher speeds and as we saw flash media really really take a strong role in storage uh nvme came around and and really was focused on trying to address that whereas sas originated with hard drive technology nvme was really born out of how do we how do we most efficiently deal with flash based media you know sas with its but sas still carries a benefit on scalability nvme maybe has i don't want to say challenges there but it's definitely was not designed as much to be broadly scalable across many many say hundreds or thousands of devices but definitely addressed some of the performance issues that were coming up as flash media was becoming so uh uh was was increasing the overall storage performance that we could experience if you will let's talk about host interfaces like pcie what's the significance there um really uh the all the storage in the world all of the performance in the world and on the storage side is not of much use to you unless you can really feed it into the into the beast if you will into the cpu and into this the rest of the server subsystem and that's really where pci comes into play pci uh originally was in parallel form and then moved to serial with pci express as we know it today and and really has created a pathway to to to enable not not only storage performance but any other adapter or any other networking or other other types of technologies to just open up that pathway and feed the processor if and as we've moved through from pci to pci express pci 2.0 3.0 4.0 and just opening up those pipes has really enabled just a tremendous amount of flow of data into into the compute engine allowing it to be analyzed sorted used to analyze data big data uh ai type applications just those pipes are critical in those types of applications we know we've seen dramatic increases in performance going from one generation of pcie to the next but how does that translate into the worlds of sas sata and nvme um so from a performance perspective when we look at these different types of media whether it be sata sas or nvme um of course there are performance difference inherent in that media sata being probably the lowest performing with nvme uh topping out at higher performing although sas can perform quite well as a flash based you know as a protocol connected to flash based media and of course nvme from us an individual device scaling from a by one to a by four interface really that is where nvme kind of has enabled a bigger pipe directly to the storage media uh being able to scale up to buy four whereas sas is kind of limited to buy one maybe buy two in some cases although most servers only connect the sas device by one so from a difference perspective then you're really wanting to create a solution or or enable the infrastructure to be able to consume that performance that nvme is going to give you and i think that you know that is something where our solutions have really in in the recent generations shine at their ability to really now uh keep up with uh storage performance in nvme uh as well as provide that connectivity back down into the sas and sata world as well let's talk about your perspective on raid today so uh there's been a lot of uh views and opinions on raid over the years it's been a and those have been changing over time raid has been around for a very very long time uh probably about as long as again going back over my 30-year career uh it's been around for almost the entire time obviously raid originally was viewed as as something that was uh very very necessary uh devices fail they don't last forever but the data that's on them is very very important and people care about that so raid was brought about you know knowing that individual devices that are storing that data are going to fail and really took hold as a primary mechanism of protection but as time went on uh and and as performance moved up uh both in the server and both in in the media itself if we start talking about flash uh raid really took on people people started to look at traditional server storage raid uh but with maybe a more of a negative connotation i think that because uh to be quite honest it fell behind a little bit if you look at things like parity raid raid five and rate six very very effective and efficient means of protecting your data very storage efficient but ultimately had some penalties a primarily around wright performance random rights in raid 5 volumes was not keeping up with what really needed to be there and um i think that really shifted uh opinions of raid that hey it's just it's just not it's not going to keep up and we need to move on to other avenues and and we've seen that we've seen disaggregated storage and other solutions pop up to protect your data obviously in cloud environments and things like that it's shown up and uh and they have been successful so one of the drawbacks with raid is always the performance tax associated with generating parity for parity rate what has broadcom done to address those potential bottlenecks we've really solved the raid performance issue the right performance issue we're we're in our latest generation of controllers we're exceeding a million rate five right iops which is enough to satisfy many many many applications as a matter of fact even in virtual environments aggregated solutions we have multiple applications and then as well in the rebuild arena we really have through our architecture through our hardware automation have been able to move the bar on that to where the rebuild not only the rebuild times have been brought down dramatically in sas based or in i'm sorry in flash based solutions but the performance that you can observe while those rebuilds are going on is almost immeasurable so in most applications you would almost observe no performance deficiencies during a rebuild operation which is really night and day compared to where things were just a few short years ago so the fact that you've been able to dramatically decrease the time necessary for a raid rebuild is obviously extremely important but give us your overall performance philosophy from broadcom's point of view you know over the years we have recognized that performance is is obviously critically important for our products and the ability to analyze performance from many many angles is critically important there are literally infinite ways you can look at performance in a storage subsystem what we have done in our labs and in our solutions through not only hardware scaling in our in our in our labs but also through automation scripts and things like that allowed us to collect a substantial amount of data to look at the performance of our solutions from every angle you know iops bandwidth application level performance small topologies large topologies just just many many aspects it's still honestly only scratches the surface of all the possible uh performance points that you could gather but it it has we have moved the bar dramatically in that regard and and it's something that our customers really demanded of us um you know storage technology has gotten more complex and you have to look at it from a lot different angles especially on the performance front to make sure that there are no holes there that somebody's going to run into so based on specific customer needs and requests you look at performance from a variety of different angles um what are some of the trends that you're seeing specifically in storage performance today and moving into the future yeah emerging trends within the storage industry i think that to look at the emerging trends you really need to go back and look at where we started we started uh in compute where people were you would have basically your uh your server that would be under the desk in a small business operation and individual uh businesses would have their own uh set of set of servers and and the storage would really be localized to those obviously the industry has recognized that um that to some extent disaggregation of that we we see that obviously in what's happening in cloud uh in hyper-converged storage and things like that those afford a tremendous amount of flexibility uh and and are obviously uh great players in the storage world today but what with that flexibility is come some sacrifice in performance and actually quite substantial sacrifice and what we're observing is almost uh it comes back full circle the uh the need for inbox high performing server storage that is well protected uh and and with people with confidence that people have confidence that their data is protected and that they can uh extract the performance that they need for the demanding database applications that still exist today and they still operate in in the offices around the country and around the world that really need to protect their data on a local basis in the server and i think that from a trend perspective that's what we're seeing also from the standpoint of nvme store nvme itself is really started out with hey we'll just software rate that we'll just we'll just wrap software around that we can protect the data we had so many customers come back to us saying you know what we really need hardware raid on nvme and when they came to us we were ready we had a solution ready to go and we're able to provide that and now we're seeing going on demand we are we are complementary to other storage solutions out there server storage is not going to necessarily rule the world but it is surely has a place in the broader storage spectrum and we think we have the right solution for that speaking of servers and server-based storage why would for example a dell customer care about the broadcom components in that dell server so uh uh let's say you're configuring a dell server and you're going why does why does hardware raid matter what what what's important about that well i think when you look at today's hardware raid uh first of all you're going to see dramatically better performance you're going to see dramatically better performance in it's going to enable you to put raid 5 volumes a very effective and efficient mechanism for protecting your data a storage efficient mechanism you're going to use raid 5 volumes where you weren't able to do that before because when you're in the millions of iops range you really uh can satisfy a lot of application needs out there and and then you're going to also going to have rebuilt times that are lightning fast your performance is not going to degrade when you're when you're running those application especially database applications but not not only database but streaming applications uh bandwidth uh to to protected raid volumes is is almost almost imperceptibly different from just raw bandwidth to the media so the rate rate configurations in today's dell servers really afford you the opportunity to make use of that storage where you you may not have uh you may have already written it off as well ray just doesn't is not going to get me there quite frankly uh into this in in the storage servers that dell is providing uh with with raid technology uh there are huge windows open and what you can do today with applications well all of this is obviously good news for dell and dell customers thanks again andy for joining us for this cube conversation i'm dave nicholson for the cube [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. I'm Dave Nicholson, Chief Technology Officer at theCUBE and we are here for a very special Cube Conversation with Andy Brown from Broadcom. Andy, welcome to theCUBE, tell us a little about yourself. >> Well, a little bit about myself, my name is Andy Brown, I'm currently the Senior Director of Software Architecture and Performance Analysis here within the Data Center Solutions Group at Broadcom. I've been doing that for about seven years prior to that, I held various positions within the system architecture, systems engineering, and IC development organization, but ultimately as well as spent some time in our support organization and managing our support team. But ultimately have landed in the architecture organization as well as performance analysis. >> Great, so a lot of what you do is around improving storage performance, tell us more about that. >> So let me give you a brief history of storage from my perspective. As I mentioned, I go back about 30 years in my career and that would've started back in the NCR Microelectronics days. And originally with Parallel SCSI, so that would be, if anyone would remember the the 5380 Controller, which was one of the original Parallel SCSI controllers that existed in built by NCR Microelectronics at the time, I've seen the advent of Parallel SCSI, a stint of fiber channel, ultimately leading into the serialization of the SCSI standard into SaaS, as well as SATA, and then ultimately leading to NVMe protocols and the advent of flash moving from hard drives into a flash based media and as well on that's on the storage side on the host side, moving from parallel interfaces, ISA if everybody could remember that, moving to PCI, PCI Express and that's where we land today. >> So Andy, we are square in the middle of the era of both NVMe and SaaS. What kinds of challenges does that overlap represent? >> Well, I think obviously we've seen SaaS around for a while, it was the conversion from parallel into a serial attached SCSI and that really SaaS brings with it, the ability to connect really a high number of devices and was kind of the original scaling of devices. And really also enabled was one of the things that enabled flash based media, given the the speed and performance that came to the table. Of course NVMe came in as well with the promise of even higher speeds. And as we saw flash media really, really take a strong role in storage. NVMe came around and really was focused on trying to address that, whereas SaaS originated with hard drive technology. NVMe was really born out of how do we most efficiently deal with flash based media, SaaS with its. But SaaS still carries a benefit on scalability and NVMe maybe has, I don't want to say challenges there, but it's definitely was not designed as much to be broadly scale across many, many, say high hundreds or thousands of devices. But definitely addressed some of the performance issues that were coming up as flash media was becoming. So it was increasing the overall storage performance that we could experience if you will. >> Let's talk about host interfaces, PCIe. What's the significance there? >> Really all the storage in the world, all the performance in the world on the storage side, is not of much use to you unless you can really feed it into the beast, if you will, into the CPU and into the the rest of the service subsystem. And that's really where PCI comes into play. PCI originally was in parallel form and then moved to serial with the PCI Express as we know it today, and really has created a pathway to enable not only storage performance but any other adapter or any other networking or other types of technologies to just open up that pathway and feed the processor. And as we've moved through from PCI to PCI Express PCI 2.0 3.0 4.0, and just opening up those pipes has really enabled just a tremendous amount of flow of data into the compute engine, allowing it to be analyzed, sorted used to analyze data, big data, AI type applications. Just those pipes are critical in those types of applications. >> We know we've seen dramatic increases in performance, going from one generation of PCIe to the next. But how does that translate into the worlds of SaaS, SATA and NVMe? >> So from a performance perspective when we look at these different types of media whether it be SATA, SaaS or NVMe, of course, there are performance difference inherent in that media, SATA being probably the lowest performing with NVMe topping out at higher performing although SaaS can perform quite well as a flash based as protocol connected to flash based media. And of course, NVMe from an individual device scaling, from a by one to a by four interface, really that is where NVMe kind of has enabled a bigger pipe directly to the storage media, being able to scale up to by four whereas SaaS can limit it to by one, maybe by two in some cases, although most servers only connect the SaaS device of by one. So from a different perspective then you're really wanting to create a solution or enable the infrastructure to be able to consume that performance at NVMe is going to give you. And I think that is something where our solutions have really in the recent generation shined, at their ability to really now keep up with storage performance and NVMe, as well as provide that connectivity back down into the SaaS and SATA world as well. >> Let's talk about your perspective on RAID today. >> So there've been a lot of views and opinions on RAID over the years, it's been and those have been changing over time. RAID has been around for a very, very long time, probably about as long as again, going back over my 30 year career, it's been around for almost the entire time. Obviously RAID originally was viewed as some thing that was very, very necessary devices fail. They don't last forever, but the data that's on them is very, very important and people care about that. So RAID was brought about knowing that individual devices that are storing that data are going to fail, and really took cold as a primary mechanism of protection. But as time went on and as performance moved up both in the server and both in the media itself if we start talking about flash. RAID really took on, people started to look at traditional server storage RAID, well, maybe a more of a negative connotation. I think that because to be quite honest, it fell behind a little bit. If you look at things like parity RAID 5 and RAID 6, very, very effective efficient means of protecting your data, very storage efficient, but ultimately had some penalty a primarily around right performance, random rights in RAID 5 volumes was not keeping up with what really needed to be there. And I think that really shifted opinions of RAID that, "Hey it's just not, it's not going to keep up and we need to move on to other avenues." And we've seen that, we've seen disaggregated storage and other solutions pop up and protect your data obviously in cloud environments and things like that have shown up and they have been successful, but. >> So one of the drawbacks with RAID is always the performance tax associated with generating parody for parody RAID. What has Broadcom done to address those potential bottlenecks? >> We've really solved the RAID performance issue the right performance issue. We're in our latest generation of controllers we're exceeding a million RAID 5 right IOPS which is enough to satisfy many, many, many applications as a matter of fact, even in virtual environments aggregated solutions, we have multiple applications. And then as well in the rebuild arena, we really have through our architecture, through our hardware automation have been able to move the bar on that to where the rebuild not only the rebuild times have been brought down dramatically in SaaS based or in I'm sorry in flash based solutions. But the performance that you can observe while those rebuilds are going on is almost immeasurable. So in most applications you would almost observe no performance deficiencies during a rebuild operation which is really night and day compared to where things were just few short years ago. >> So the fact that you've been able to, dramatically decrease the time necessary for a RAID rebuild is obviously extremely important. But give us your overall performance philosophy from Broadcom's point of view. >> Over the years we have recognized that performance is obviously a critically important for our products, and the ability to analyze performance from many many angles is critically important. There are literally infinite ways you can look at performance in a storage subsystem. What we have done in our labs and in our solutions through not only hardware scaling in our labs, but also through automation scripts and things like that, have allowed us to collect a substantial amount of data to look at the performance of our solutions from every angle. IOPS, bandwidth application level performance, small topologies, large topologies, just many, many aspects. It still honestly only scratches the surface of all the possible performance points that you could gather, but we have moved them bar dramatically in that regard. And it's something that our customers really demanded of us. Storage technology has gotten more complex, and you have to look at it from a lot different angles, especially on the performance front to make sure that there are no holes there that somebody's going to run into. >> So based on specific customer needs and requests, you look at performance from a variety of different angles. What are some of the trends that you're seeing specifically in storage per performance today and moving into the future? >> Yeah, emerging trends within the storage industry. I think that to look at the emerging trends, you really need to go back and look at where we started. We started in compute where people were you would have basically your server that would be under the desk in a small business operation and individual businesses would have their own set of servers, and the storage would really be localized to those. Obviously the industry has recognized that to some extent, disaggregation of that, we see that obviously in what's happening in cloud, in hyper-converged storage and things like that. Those afford a tremendous amount of flexibility and are obviously great players in the storage world today. But with that flexibility has come some sacrifice and performance and actually quite substantial sacrifice. And what we're observing is almost, it comes back full circle. The need for inbox high performing server storage that is well protected. And with people with confidence that people have confidence that their data is protected and that they can extract the performance that they need for the demanding database applications, that still exists today, and that still operate in the offices around the country and around the world, that really need to protect their data on a local basis in the server. And I think that from a trend perspective that's what we're seeing. We also, from the standpoint of NVMe itself is really started out with, "Hey, we'll just software rate that. We'll just wrap software around that, we can protect the data." We had so many customers come back to us saying, you know what? We really need hardware RAID on NVMe. And when they came to us, we were ready. We had a solution ready to go, and we're able to provide that, and now we're seeing ongoing on demand. We are complimentary to other storage solutions out there. Server storage is not going to necessarily rule a world but it is surely has a place in the broader storage spectrum. And we think we have the right solution for that. >> Speaking of servers and server-based storage. Why would, for example, a Dell customer care about the Broadcom components in that Dell server. >> So let's say you're configuring a Dell server and you're going, why does hardware where RAID matter? What's important about that? Well, I think when you look at today's hardware RAID, first of all, you're going to see a dramatically better performance. You're going to see dramatically better performance it's going to enable you to put RAID 5 volumes a very effective and efficient mechanism for protecting your data, a storage efficient mechanism. You're going to use RAID 5 volumes where you weren't able to do that before, because when you're in the millions of IOPS range you really can satisfy a lot of application needs out there. And then you're going to also going to have rebuilt times that are lightning fast. Your performance is not going to degrade, when you're running those application, especially database applications, but not only database, but streaming applications, bandwidth to protected RAID volumes is almost imperceptively different from just raw bandwidth to the media. So the RAID configurations in today's Dell servers really afford you the opportunity to make use of that storage where you may not have already written it off as well RAID just doesn't, is not going to get me there. Quite frankly, into this in the storage servers that Dell is providing with RAID technology, there are huge windows open in what you can do today with applications. >> Well, all of this is obviously good news for Dell and Dell customers, thanks again, Andy for joining us, for this Cube Conversation, I'm Dave Nicholson for theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode two. I'm your host, John furry with the cube. I'm joined by two cube alumni as Andy Langston, SVP and GM at Veem and Sabina Joseph, the general manager of technology partners at AWS. We're here talking about speeding the innovation with AWS. Welcome to the show. >>Ready to meet you >>And good to see you, Andy again. >>Great to have you guys back on. I hope you guys are doing well. Great to see both of you Veem. Obviously we've been covering you guys for a long time. You got your VIMANA event coming up in person, which is great. Congrats on the continued success of the company and the product you guys have always been all in on AWS. We've been covering for many, many years. Andy, what's the innovation going on now at Veem? Lots of lots happening, lots going on. What's the new innovation. >>Well, I think, you know, clearly people are in, you know, when we talk to people they're interested in, in ransomware, so ransomware protection, we they're interested in a hybrid cloud hybrid. Um, you know, AWS in particular, we get a lot of interest there. Um, clearly modern data protection, uh, what we're doing in office 365, people are looking at all those things >>And what's the, the platform, uh, approach that you guys have with AWS. You guys have a broad range. It's not just the classic. I call it the green classic solution. That's also a good product. What's some of the new platform advantages you guys got going on with the cloud native with AWS. >>Well, you know, look we are, our strategy is to protect as many AWS services as possible, you know, and, and, you know, from the ECE to EBS, S3, RDS, uh, VMC, and many of the services that they're coming out with. And in many times they come to us and say, Hey, you know, these are important to us. We'd like you to, to support these. So clearly we're, um, we're focused on those, uh, Kubernetes workloads is, is a newer set of workloads on AWS. That we're a very interested, we made an acquisition and have a product called, uh, Kasten that we've been investing in and working with AWS with their, uh, uh, EKS anywhere. So very excited. >>Great. So being on the partnership, you guys, it's growing a lot's going on. Can you tell us more about how Veeam and abs AWS are jointly helping customers? >>Yeah. As, um, as both of, you know, right. Data is exploding. And, uh, that means, you know, we have to keep backing up this data and finding new ways to back up this data because people are stepping away from the traditional backup methods, tape libraries, secondary storage sites and things like that. And they're backing up data into the cloud. And we AWS offers a number of different storage services, data transfer methods and networking solutions, which provide unmatched your ability, reliability, security. And of course, uh, AWS and Veem have been partnering together enough for quite a number of years and the cost effective. And so you mentioned that Veem has on AWS really enables customers to have offsite storage solutions, providing that physical separation between their on premises, primary data, and also utilizing the pay as you go cloud economics. So we have a great collaboration and, you know, beam has a great solution on AWS and they're constantly innovating and providing capabilities for our customers. Just like Andy said, providing as many capabilities for our services to back up, >>Andy, the volume of data I'll say is always the story. Every year, the volume is tsunami of data. It's getting worse it's every day. Um, and as you got more cloud scale, you guys have been doing a lot integration. You guys always have, you have demanding customers, you have a lot of customers actually. So as you leverage Amazon for data protection, the security conversation is front and center these days. Can you give us an update on how you guys are doing, uh, the data protection security in the cloud with AWS? That's, that's, um, that's hot with your customers, >>You know, it's a great, it's a great comment. You know, you've talked about a lot of customers. Veem has over 400,000 customers now it's, it's truly extraordinary when you think about the size and scope and scale. And if you think, uh, my belief is a majority, almost all of them will tear up two and move their data up into the cloud at some point in our, in the next few years. And so we've just, I think we've described the surface and we're moving hack, you know, hundreds of petabytes or more per year up to the cloud at the same time when I make customer executive calls. It's kind of interesting. A lot of times you think they're going to want to talk about backup and disaster recovery. They want to talk about security. And when this first started happening, I thought, Hey, why don't you talk to your security vendor now? >>And what I realized was that data protection is front and center because of the, we just, we just published a study where a number jumped out at me, 71% of the thousands of people that responded said that they had already been a victim of, or had had a ransomware attack. It's a staggering number. And, um, so, you know, when we look at our relationship with Amazon and we look at the integration we've done around what we call cloud during that's moving, are moving data up to object storage. AWS has a capability called immutable data sets. And so that allows you affords you some great protection against ransomware as an example. And that's one of the areas that we're investing in very heavily. And by the way, our mutual customers are backing up and restoring with Veem and we're doing it on AWS and, and, uh, the data volumes are exploding, I think, because of that. Yeah. >>You know, it's interesting. And you made me have a throwback for, you know, 10 years ago, we used to talk about backup and recovery. And you know, the big thing back then was, was the conversation was don't think of backup as a, as a last minute thing, think of it at the front end, it was always kind of an afterthought and a, of the it decision makers. And you mentioned that security comment about call your security vendor. It's almost the scripts has flipped backup and recovery is the security solution. And so it's not, it's not an afterthought. This is 10 years ago. It was the primary message. It's the primary thought. So when you talk about automated tiering, that's kind of a networking thing. It's like, policy-based hearing. I mean, I mean, if you go back 10 years and we're talking, policy-based hearing, you were like, what? So this is a really different dynamic. And I want you guys to comment because this is the, this is the market right now. This is with the flip, the script has flipped. >>Yeah. Sabina. What do you, what, what do you from y'all's perspective kind of in, in your technology, partnerships, storage vendors, Veem security, what, what do you w what do you see? >>Well, I think that there is an interplay here because I think customers are looking at various ways, right? When I look at those five cybersecurity framework, right? First is identifying what you need to protect, protecting it. And then that's a very important step of, out of those five steps is recovery, right? How do you get your business back to normal? But you cannot do that if you are not protecting and backing up your data. And that's where our partnership comes in. Right? So I believe that all of those five stages in the NIST cybersecurity framework kind of go together and be in place nicely into the very critical phase of recovery. Would you agree, Andy? >>I would. You know, and, and I look at, um, you know, when you're doing a recovery and your gut, your secure backups and AWS, it's, it's like your last line of defense, you know, beam and AWS deliver a mutable backups and has three tiers through S3 object lock integration. And I think that's, that's pretty much, you know, even if a ransomware attack is successful, we can, we can ensure that the backup data hadn't been changed and encrypted or deleted. And, uh, that's pretty exciting, you know, for customers and prospects, they're really worried about this. And I think the teamwork and the, the, the partnership between the two companies to build a solution like this is pretty awesome. >>Yeah. Let me, let me just double, double click on that for a second. You mentioned it got a lot of customers. Ransomware does not discriminate with the size of the company. It could be, it could be a hospital school. It could be a big company. Ransomware is bad, and we see that, and it's a great conversation. And how do you take that solution out to the customers? You got hundreds of thousands of customers. So Sabine, I guess the question is, how is this 80 of us in Veem work together? There's this channel first concept you guys are talking about, tell us about how you guys work together, because there's millions of customers who want this, and you guys actually have hundreds of thousands of customers that Veem, how do you get the customers to leverage that, the relationship and what can you bring to them? >>Yeah, I'll give you like four numbers, right? So AWS has millions of customers and we have, um, hundred thousand partners across 150 countries. Now Veem has, as Andy mentioned, right, has over 400,000 customers and 35,000 partners worldwide. So somewhere in these four numbers, we all intersect both of us intersect both on those customers and also on those partners. And one of the initiatives that my team is heavily focused on is triangulating between the partners that Veeam has. We have, and also our technology partnership. And how can we provide value to our customers by bringing together these partners together with AWS Veeam and Veeam is a V it's a hundred percent channel driven business, and they know how to do this. That is why we are heavily partnered with them to see what we can do for our customers through our mutual partner. >>And he wants you to weigh in here, you know, the channel business, it's gotta be easy, it's got to add value. And I got to wrap services around it. That's what partners love. Well, how does this work? How does that work? >>Well, I, I think to extend beyond what, what did take, what Sabina had said is, you know, we have kind of been subsetted. Our partners are the ones that, that do business with AWS and, and which is a exploding number of partners. And so they have a relationship database. We have a relationship at S and we have this solution set that have, are of interest to our customers through these partners. And AWS has customers through these partners. And so a lot of times we'll share, um, information and customers, uh, information on, around, um, how we can kind of go to these customers who are both AWS customers and Veem customers and market, this joint solution protect them from ransomware. >>And how's it been going so far? What's your, what's your assessment? >>It's been fantastic. I think the, I think one of the, the, the real proof points is that we've moved, uh, over a half a petabyte of data, you know, uh, recently up into their cloud. And, uh, you know, that says that people not only are using the solution, but they're, uh, they're actually delivering on it. >>Well, why got you here, Andy, I want to ask you for the, all the people watching the customers, what's the biggest change that's happening in this market right now. Again, I love this shift that we're seeing backup and recovery. Isn't a point solution anymore. It's the solution it's baked in, and everyone's talking about this, it's integrated in, it's not, it's, it's totally front and center. What's the big change that customers should be thinking about now as they move forward. And, uh, obviously ransomware is still front and center. That's not going away anytime soon. What's the big thing to focus on for customers? >>Well, I think, you know, I always say, you know, listen to the customer and focus on what their specific needs are, right? You can assume, obviously in the business war and everybody, everybody has a backup solution. And, uh, so you're not trying to create a market there, but like I said, you know, people are very focused on security. They're focused on cost, they're focus on skillset or lack of skill sets, right? I mean, we have a shortage of skills in the industry. So we try to make our products easy to use. We try to work with our partners, putting AWS to deliver the best solution we can for our customers. And, uh, you know, I think we have the broadest invest, you know, ransomware protection, uh, and recovery in the storage space. And so we're very focused on that, leveraging all of our technologies across the platforms, physical, virtual Kubernetes, uh, type environments. >>And you have this and you get the beam on event coming up and that's going to be good in person. Right. That's a confirmed, >>It's a, it's a, it's a hybrid yet. In-person and virtual. >>Awesome. Great to see you guys in person. So being a, for the folks, watching the Amazon partnerships, as you guys scale up these, these partnerships and take it the next level, what's your, what's your closing comment. Yes. >>Yeah. I also want to say, write something that I should mention, right. We miss also invested in AWS marketplace. So it's not just the direct consulting partners and the partners that I mentioned, the a hundred thousand and 35,000, right. They, customers can also purchase beam on AWS marketplace through consulting partner, private offers. And that's why Viva's embraced many of these aspects to try to help our customers and continue to grow that 400,000 customer base, which is a pretty phenomenal number. >>Yeah. I've always been impressed with beam's customer base and they've got a very loyal base as well. I point that out and give props to the VM team. Andy closing comments for you, the V natives relationship, how would you summarize that? >>I'd say it's fantastic. You know, years ago it started as just a normal technology partnership. You know, now we're an advanced technology partner with storage competency, numerous programs like APN, uh, customer engagement. We're a marketplace seller. And I would say that it's not only that, but, but customers can take advantages of their, um, EDP with AWS to purchase on the marketplace and get credits against that. And our partners can as well. That's a, that's a very important thing because we're seeing more and more interest in that today. Uh, we're a public sector partner with them. We're an ISV accelerate SAS revenue recognition program. We're, we're, uh, I think we're checking a lot of boxes, but really taking advantage of it. The last thing I would say is, uh, I've known Sabina for quite a few years now. And I think it's the people relationships in the two companies that make this work. >>We have a lot of people, a lot smarter than me on the, on the speeds and feeds here. But at the end of the day, um, Sabina has a team of people that work with us on a, on a, almost a daily basis to solve customer problems. Right. We get people calling in all the time. How do I make Veem work on AWS? How do I get AWS solutions to work with theme? And our job is to make it as easy as possible because we both believe, uh, that customers, they say customer first. I always say, customer always are always right, but, but, but, but you know, at the end of the day, that's what makes this >>Yeah. Customer is always right. Customer obsession, working backwards from the customer fucking customer first Sabina. This is really interesting. This is a good point. I just come quick, go back to you real quick. This integration of relationships and also cloud technology integration is a big theme this year, post re-invent. Your thoughts >>Absolutely means, um, uh, to be candid. Uh, one of the goals that me and my team take is how do we bring technology partners together to add more value to our customers in end to end solutions, along with technology partners and consulting partners. So that is a huge focus for us because we need to do that in order to scale, not just for each other, but also for our customers and bring that, bring together meaningful, comprehensive end to end solutions. >>That's awesome. Andy, great to see you. We'll see at Veem on as well, coming up for the Veem show and your conference. You've been conference hybrid conference in person and virtual and digital to be in a great to see you again. Thanks for sharing all the great updates. And this is the season two. It's all about the data and the innovations with AWS. I'm John for your host of the cube season one episode, two of the AWS partner showcase. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, good day, everybody. John Walls here on theCUBE. We continue our coverage here at Postgres Vision in 2021. Talking today with Andy Harris, who is the Chief Technology Officer at Osirium, a leader in the Privileged Access Management Space, and Andy, good day to you. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. >> Good morning to you and good afternoon, yes. >> That's right. Joining us from overseas over in England, we're on this side of the big pond, but nonetheless, we're joined by the power of Zoom. So again, thanks for the time. Andy, for those who aren't familiar who are watching about Osirium, share a little bit about your various service levels of what you provide, the kind of solutions you provide, and how you've achieved a great success in this space. >> Okay. I know these things, mine will be boring. So I'll just put a little slide up now, which is the minimum I think I can get away with which is that we're all about managing privilege. So that's privileged at the endpoint, Privileged Access Management, and Privileged Process Automation. So wherever a CIS admin has to do something on a machine that needs privilege, we like to be involved. Obviously, we like to be able to delegate all the way down to the business functions with Privileged Process Automation and with the EDB or the BDR part of that functionality in EDB that really fits in to our Privileged Access Management. So what I'll do just to take you away from our product. So I'll just quickly show you a slide of the architecture, which is as simple as we have these nodes. If you like the running ADB BDR and they can perform log-ins to a target device using privileged credentials, which we control when we might be really long up to about 128 characters. >> So Andy, if you would, I think you had put together a little show and tell you a demonstration for how when these systems are perhaps under siege if you will. That there are ways in which obviously you've developed to counter this and to be able to continue secure communications, which in the privilege assets world as you know is paramount. >> Yes, indeed. So I'll show you another slide, which gives you a kind of a overview of everything that's going on and you're going to see a little demonstration of two nodes here that has the BDL technology on and they can make these logins, and we have these characters, Bob and Allison. I've just noticed how it marks in department turn Alice to Allison. they should really be Alice because you get Bob, Alice, Carol, Dave, which are the standard encryption users. And what we're going to do is we're going to demonstrate that you can have breaks in the network. So I'm just sharing the network breaks slide. I'm showing the second network break slide. And then we have this function that we've built which we're going to demonstrate for you today, which is called evil beatings. And what it does is whilst there is a politician in the network, we are going to refresh many thousands of times the credentials on the target device. And then we're going to heal the break in the network and then prove that everything is still working. So right now, I'm going to zoom over to my live connection, terminal connections to the machine. And I'm going to run this command here, which is Python EV3. And I'm going to put a hundred cycles in it which is going to do around about 10,000 password refreshes. Okay. And I'm then going to go over to Chrome, and I should have a system here waiting for me. And in this system, you'll see that I've got the device demo and I've got this come online, SSH. And if I click on this I've got a live connection to this machine. Even whilst I have a huge number of queued up and I'll just show you the queued out connections through the admin interface. The system is working extremely hard at the moment. And in fact, if I show you this slide here, you can see that I have all of these queued credential resets and that is giving our system an awful lot of grief. Yeah. I can go back to the device connection and it is all here still top. Why not? And as you can see, it is all working perfectly. And if I was a user of EDB, I think this has to be one of the demonstrations I'd be interested in because it's one of the first things that we did when we dropped that functionality into our products. We wanted to know how well it would work under extreme conditions because you don't think of extreme conditions as normal working, but whenever you have 10 nodes in different countries, there will always be a network break somewhere and someone will always need to be refreshing passwords a ridiculous rates of knots. So Andy let's talk about this kind of the notion that you're providing here, this about accountability and visibility, audit-ability, all these insights that you're providing through this kind of demonstration you've given us how critical is that today, especially when we know there are so many possible intrusions and so many opportunities with legacy systems and new apps and all of this. I mean talking about those three pillars, if you will, the importance of that and what we just saw in terms of providing that peace of mind that everybody wants in their system. >> That's a cracking question. I'm going to enjoy that question. Legacy systems, that's a really good question. If you, we have NHS, which is our national health service and we have hospitals and you have hospitals every country has hospitals. And the equipment that they use like the MRI scanners, the electro-microscope, some of the blood analysis machines, the systems in those costs multiple Gillions of dollars or should use dollars euros, dollars, pounds and the operating systems running those systems, the lifetime of that piece of equipment is much much longer than the lifetime of an operating system. So we glibly throw around this idea of legacy systems and to a hospital that's a system that's a mere five years old and has got to be delivering for another 15 years. But in reality, all of this stuff gets, acquires vulnerabilities because our adversaries the people that want to do organizations bad things ransomware and all the rest of it they are spending all that time learning about the vulnerabilities of old systems. So the beauty of what we do is being able to take those old legacy systems and put a zero trust safety shell around them, and then use extremely long credentials which can't be cracked. And then we make sure that those credentials don't go anywhere near any workstations. But what they do do, is they're inside that ADB database encrypted with a master encryption key, and they make that jump just inside the zero trust boundary so that Bob and Alice outside can get administration connections inside for them to work. So what we're doing is providing safety for those legacy systems. We are also providing an environment for old apps to run in as well. So we have something called a map server which I didn't think you'd asked us that question. I'd have to find you some slides or presentations, which we want to do. We have a map server, which is effectively a very protected window server, and you can put your old applications on them and you can let them age gracefully and carry on running. Dot net 3.5 and all of those old things. And we can map your connection into the older application and then map those connections out. But in terms of the other aspects of it is the hospital stay open 24 hours a day banks run 24 hours a day and they need to be managed from anywhere. We're in a global pandemic, people are working from home. That means that people are working from laptops and all sorts of things that haven't been provisioned by centrality and could all have all sorts of threats and problems to them. And being able to access any time is really important. And because we are changing the credentials on these machines on a regular basis, you cannot lose one. It's absolutely critical. You cannot go around losing Windows active directory domain credentials it just can't be done. And if you have a situation where you've just updated a password and you've had a failure one of those 10 nodes has the correct set of credentials. And when the system heals, you have to work out which one of the 10 it is and the one that did it last must be the one that updates all the other 10 nodes. And I think the important thing is as Osirium we have the responsibility for doing the updates and we have the responsibility for tracking all those things. But we hand the responsibility of making sure that all the other 10 nodes are up to date which just drop it into bi-directional replication and it just happens. And you've seen it happen. I mean, might be just for the fun of it, We'll go back to that demonstration Chrome, and you can see we're still connected to that machine. That's all still running fine but we could go off to our management thing, refresh it and you see that everything there is successful. I can go to a second machine and I can make a second connection to that device. Yet, in the meantime that password has been changed, Oh, I mean, I wouldn't like to tell you how many times it's been changed. I need to be on a slightly different device. I was going to do a reveal password for you, I'll make another connection but the passwords will be typically, do a top on that just to create some more load. But the passwords will typically be... I'll come back to me. They'll typically be 128 characters long. >> Andy, if I could, I mean, 'cause I think you're really showing this very complex set of challenges that you have these days, right? In terms of providing access to multiple devices across, in multiple networking challenges, when you talk to your prospective clients about the kind of how this security perimeters changed, it's very different now than it was four or five years ago. What are the key points that you want them to take away from your discussion about how they have to think about security and access especially in this day and age when we've even seen here in the States. Some very serious intrusions that I think certainly get everybody's attention. >> That's a great question again. They're all... The way that I would answer that question would definitely depend on the continent that I was talking to. But my favorite answer will be a European answer, so I'll give you a European answer. One of the things that you're doing when you come along and provide Privileged Access Management to a traditional IT team, is your taking away the sysadmins right now, before privilege access, they will know the passwords. They will be keeping the passwords in a password vault or something like this. So they own the passwords, they own the credentials. And when you come along with a product like privilege access management you're taking over management of those credentials and you're protecting those systems from a whole wide range of threats. And one of those threats is from the system administrators themselves. And they understand that. So what I would say, it's an interesting question. 'Cause I'm like, I'm thinking I've got two ways of answering I can answer as if I'm talking to management or as if I'm talking to the people who are actually going to use the products and I feel more aligned with the, I feel more aligned with the actual users. >> Yeah, I think let's just, we'll focus on that and I'll let you know, we just have a moment or two left. So if you could maybe boil it down for me a little bit. >> Boiling it down, I would say now look here CIS admins. It's really important that you get your job done but you need to understand that those privileged accounts that you're using on those systems are absolute gold dust if they get into the hands of your adversaries and you need protections income away from those adversaries, but we trust you and we are going to get you the access to your machines as fast as possible. So we're a little bit like a nightclub bouncer but we're like the Heineken of nightclub bounces. When you arrive, we know it's you and we're going to get you to your favorite machine logged on as domain admin, as fast as possible. And while you're there, we're going to cut that session recording of you. And just keep you safe and on the right side. >> All right, I'm going to enjoy my night in the nightclub. Now I can sleep easy tonight knowing that Andy Harris and Osirium are on the case. Thanks, Andy. Andy Harris speaking with us. So the Chief Technology Officer from Osirium as part of our Postgres vision, 2021, coverage here on theCUBE. (upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation.

the cloud has dramatically changed the way providers think about delivering database technologies not only has cloud first become a mandate for many if not most but customers are demanding more capabilities from their technology vendors examples include a substantially similar experience for cloud and on-prem workloads increased automation and a never-ending quest for more secure platforms broadly there are two prevailing models that have emerged one is to provide highly specialized database products that focus on optimizing for a specific workload signature the other end of the spectrum combines technologies in a converge platform to satisfy satisfy the needs of a much broader set of use cases and with me to get a perspective on these and other issues is andy mendelson is the executive vice president of oracle the world's leading database company andy leads database server technologies hello andy thanks for coming on hey dave glad to be here okay so we saw the recent announcements this is kind of your baby around next generation autonomous data warehouse maybe you could take us through the path you took from the original cloud data warehouses to where we are today yeah when we uh we first brought autonomous database out uh we were basically a second generation technology at that point you know we decided that what customers wanted was to the other you know the push of a button provision the really powerful oracle database technology that they've been using for years and um we did that with autonomous database and beyond that we provided a very unique capability that around self-tuning self-driving of the database which is something the first generation vendors didn't provide and this this is really important because customers today are you know developers and data analysts you know you know at the push of a button build out their their data warehouses but you know they're not experts in tuning and so what we thought was really important is that customers get great performance out of the box and that's one of the really unique things about autonomous data warehouse autonomous database in particular and then this latest generation that we just came out with also answers the questions we got from you know the data analysts and developers they said you know it's really great that i can press a button and provision this very powerful data warehouse infrastructure or database infrastructure from oracle but you know if i'm an analyst i want data you know so it's still hard for me to go and you know get data from various data sources transform them clean them up and get them to a way a place where i can start querying the data now i still need data engineers to help me do that and so we've done in the new release we said okay we want to give data analysts and data engineer data scientists developers is a true self-service experience where they can do their job completely without bringing in any you know any any engineers from their i.t organization and so that's what this new version is all about yeah awesome i mean look years ago you guys identified the i.t labor problem and you've been focused on r d and putting it in your r d to solve that problem for customers so we're really starting to see that hit now now gartner recently did some analysis they ranked and rated them some of the more popular cloud databases and oracle did very well i mean particularly particularly in operational categories i mean an operational side and the mission critical stuff you smoked everybody we had mark stamer and david floyer on and our big takeaways were that you're you're again dominating in that mission critical workloads that that that dominance continues but your approach of converging functionality really differs from some others that we saw i mean obviously when you get high ratings from gartner you're pretty stoked about that but what do you think contributed to those rankings and what are you finding specifically in customer interactions yeah so gardner does a lot of its analysis based on talking to customers finding out how their product these products that sound great on paper actually work in practice and i think that's one of the places where oracle database technology really shines it's it's uh it solves real-world problems um it's been doing it for a long time and as we've moved that technology into the cloud you know that continues you know the differentiation we've built up over the years really stands out you know you look at like amazon's databases they generally take some open source technology that isn't that new it could be 30 years old 25 years old and they put it up on the cloud and they say oh it's cloud native it's great but but in fact it's the same old you know technology that that doesn't really compete you know decade behind oracle's database technology so i think the gartner analysis really showed that sort of thing quite clearly yeah so let's talk about that a little bit because obviously i've learned a lot you know one of the things i've learned over the last many years of following this business a lot of ways to skin a cat and cloud database vendors if you think about you mentioned aws you know look at snowflake kind of right tool for the right job approach they're going to say that their specialty databases they're focused uh are better than your converged approach which they make you know think of as a you know swiss army knife what's your take on that yeah well the converged approach is something of course we've been working on for a long time so the the idea is pretty simple you know think about your smartphone you know if you can think back you know over 10 years ago used to have you know a camcorder and a a camera and a messaging device and also a dump phone device that all those different devices got converged into what we now call the smartphone why did the smartphone win it's just simply much more productive for you to carry one device around that that is actually best to breed in all the different categories instead of lots of separate devices and that's what we're doing with converge database over the years you know we've been able to build out technologies that are really good at transaction breasts at analytics for data warehousing now we're working on you know json technologies graph technologies the other vendors basically can't do this i mean it's much easier to build a specialty database that does one thing to build out a converged database that does end things really well and that's what we've been doing for years and again it's it's based on technology that uh you've invested in for quite a long time um and it's something that i think uh customers and developers and analyze analysts find to be a much more productive way of doing their jobs it's very unique and not common at all to see a technology that's been around as long as oracle database to see that sort of morph into a more modern platform i mean you mentioned aws uses leverages open source a lot you know snowflake would say okay hey we are born in the cloud and they are i think google bigquery would be another good example but but but that notion of boy i want to get your take on this born in the cloud those folks would say well we're superior to oracle's because you know they started you know decades ago not necessarily you know native cloud services uh how have you been able to address that i know you know cloud first is kind of the buzzword but but how have you you made that sort of transparent to users or or irrelevant to users because you are cloud first maybe you could talk about how you've able to achieve that and convince us that you actually really are cloud native now you know one of the things we we sort of like pointing out is that um oracle very uniquely has had this scale out technology for running all kinds of workloads not just analytic workloads which is what you see out in the cloud there but we can also scale out transaction processing workloads now that was another one of the reasons we do so well in for example the gardner analysis for trans operational workloads and that technology is really valuable as we went to cloud it lets us do some really unique things and the most obvious unique thing we we have is something we like to call you know you know cloud native you know instant elasticity and so with our technology if you want to provision a share you know some number of amount of compute to run your workloads you can provision exactly what you need you know if you need 17 cpus to get your job done you do 17 cpus when you provision your autonomous database our competitors who claim to be born in the cloud like snowflake and amazon they still use this this archaic way of provisioning uh servers based on shapes you know snowflake you know says what which shape cluster do you want you want 16 you want 32 you want 64. no it goes up by a power of 2 which means if you compare that to what oracle does you you have to provision up to like twice as much cpu than you really need so if you really need 17 they make you provision 32. if you really need 33 they make your provision 64. so this is not a cloud native experience at all it's an archaic way of doing things and and we like to point out with our instant elasticity you know we can go from 17 to 18 to 19 you know whatever you want plus we have something called auto scale so you can set your baseline to be 17 let's say but we will automatically based on your workload scale you up to three times that so in this case be 51 and because of that true elasticity we have we are really the only ones that can deliver true pay as you go kind of you know just pay for what you need kind of capability which is certainly what amazon was talking about when they first called their cloud elastic but it turns out for database services these guys still do this archaic thing with shapes so that's a really good example of where we're quite better than the other guys and it's much more cloud native than the other guys i want to follow up on that uh just stay here for a second because you're basically saying we have we have better granularity than the so-called cloud native guys now you mentioned snowflake right you got you got the shapes you got to you got to choose which shape you want and it sounds like it sounds like redshift the same and of course i know the way in which amazon separates compute from storage is largely a tiering exercise so it's not as as is as smooth as you might expect but nonetheless it's it's good how is it that you were you were able to achieve this with a database that was you know born you know many decades ago is it i mean what is it in from a technical standpoint an r d standpoint that you were able to do i mean did you design that in in the 1980s how did you how did you get here yeah well um it's a combination of interesting technologies so autonomous database you know it has the oracle database software that software is running on a very powerful optimized infrastructure for database based on the exadata technology that we've had on prem for many years we brought that to the cloud and that technology is a scale-out infrastructure that supports you know thousands of cpus and then we use our multi-tenant technology which is a way of sharing large infrastructures amongst amongst separate uh clients and we divide it up dynamically on the fly so if there's thousands of cpus you know this guy wants 20 and this one wants 30 we we divide it up and give them exactly what they need and if they want to grow we just take some extra cpus that are in reserve and we give it to them instantly and so that's a very different way of doing things and that's been a shape based approach where you know what what snowflake and amazon do under the covers they give you a real physical server you know or a cluster and that's how they provision if you want to grow they give you another big physical cluster which takes a long time to get the data populated to get it get it working we just have that one infrastructure that we're sharing among lots of users and we just give you a little extra capacity we don't it doesn't it's done instantly there's no need for data to be moved to populate the new clusters that you know snowflake or amazon are provisioning for you so it's a very different way of doing things and you're able to do that because of the tight integration between you mentioned exadata tight integration between the hardware and software we got david floyer calls it the iphone of enterprise sometimes sometimes you get some grief for that but it's it's not a bad metaphor but is that really the sort of secret well the big secret under the covers is this you know exudated technology our real application cluster scale out technologies our multi-tenant technologies so these are things we've been working on for a long time and they are very mature very powerful technologies and they really provide very unique benefits in a cloud world where people want things to happen instantly and they want to work well for any kind of workload um you know that's that's why we call we talk about being converged we can do mixed workloads you can do transactions and analytics all in the same data the other guys can't do that you know they're really good at like you said a narrow workload like i can do analytics or i can do graph you know i can do json but they can't really do the combination which is what real world applications are like they're not pure one thing versus enough right thank you for that so one of the questions people want to know is can oracle attract you know new customers that aren't existing oracle customers so maybe you could talk about that and you know why should uh somebody who's not an existing oracle customer think about using autonomous database yeah that's a that's a really good question you know oracle if you look at our customer base has a lot of really large enterprises you know the biggest banks and the biggest telcos you know they run oracle they run their businesses on oracle and these guys are sort of the most conservative of the bunch out there and they are moving to cloud at a somewhat slower rate than the than the smaller companies and so if you look at who's using autonomous database now it's actually the smaller companies you know the same type of people that first decided amazon was an interesting cloud 10 years ago they're also using our technologies and it's for the same reason they're finding you know they don't have large it organizations they don't have large numbers of engineers to engineer their infrastructure and that's why cloud is so attractive to them and autonomous database on top of cloud is really attractive as well because you know information is the lifeblood of every organization and if they can empower their analysts to get their job done without lots of help from it organizations they're going to do it and you know that's really what's made autonomous database really interesting you know the whole self-driving nature is very attractive to the smaller shops that don't have a lot of sophisticated um i.t expertise all right let's talk about developers you guys are the stewards of the java community so obviously you know big probably you know the biggest most popular programming language out there but when i think of developers i think of guys in hoodies pounding away but when i think of oracle developers i might think of maybe an app dev team inside of maybe some of those large customers that you talked about but why would developers and or analysts be interested in in using oracle as opposed to some some of those more focused narrow use databases that we were talking about earlier yeah so if you're a developer um you want to get your job done as fast as possible and so having a database that gives you the most productive application development experience is important to you and so you know i was talking we've been talking about converged database off and on so if i'm a developer i have a given job to do a converged database that lets me do a combination of analytics and and transactions and do a little json and little graph all in one is a much more productive place to go because if i if i i don't have something like that then i'm stuck taking my my application and breaking it up into pieces you know this piece i'm going to run on say aurora on amazon and this piece i have to run on the graph database and here's some json i got to run that on some document database and then i have to move the data around the data gets sort of fragmented between these databases and i have to do all this data you know integration and and whatever with a converged database i have a much simpler world where i can just use one technology stack i can get my job done and then i'm future proof against change you know requirements change all the time so you build the initial version of the application and your users say you know that this is not what i want i want some something else and it turns out that something else often is why i want analytics and you use something like a you know a document stored technology that has really poor analytic capabilities and then so you have to take that data and you have to move it to another database and so with with our converged approach you don't have to do that you know you're already in a place where everything works everything that you need you can possibly need in the future is going to be there as well and so for developers i i think you know converged is the right way to go plus for people who are what we call citizen developers you know like the data analysts that they cuddle they write a little code occasionally but they're really after getting value of the data we have this really fabulous no code loco tool called apex and apex is again a very mature technology it's been around for years and it lets somebody who's just a data analyst he knows a little sql but doesn't want to write code get their job done really fast and we've published some benchmark on our website showing you know basically you can get the job done 20 to 40 times faster using a no co loco tool like apex versus something like you know just writing cutting lots of traditional code i'm glad you brought up apex we recently interviewed one of your former colleagues amit xavery and all he would talk about is low code no code and then in the apex announcement you said something to the effect of coding should be the exception not the rule did you mean that what do you mean by that yeah so apex is a tool that people use with our our database technology for building what we call data driven applications so if you got a bunch of data and you want to get some value out of it you want to build maybe dashboards or more sophisticated reports apex is an incredible tool for doing that and it's it's modern you know it builds applications that look great on your smartphone and it automatically you know renders that same user interface on a bigger device like a laptop desktop device as well and uh it's very it's one of these things that uh the people that use it just go bonkers with it it's a viral technology they get really excited about how productive they they've been using it and they tell all their friends and i think we decided uh i guess about a year ago when we came up with this apex service that you know we really want to start going bigger on the marketing around it because it's very unique nobody else has anything quite like it and it's it again it just adds value to the whole developer productivity story around an oracle database so uh that's why we have the apex service now and we also have apex available with every oracle database on the cloud god i want to i want to ask you about some of the features around 21c there are a lot of them you announced earlier this year maybe you could tease out some of the top things that we should be paying attention to in 21c yeah sure um so one of the ways to look at 21c is we're we're continuing down this path of a converged database and so one of the the marquee features in 21c is something we call blockchain tables so what is blockchain well blockchain was this technology that's under the covers behind bitcoin you know it's a way of creating a tamper-proof data store um that was used by the original bitcoin algorithms well developers actually like having tamper proof data objects and databases too um you know and so what we decided to do was say well if i create a sql table in an oracle database what if there's a new option that just says i want that table implemented using blockchain technology to make the table tamper proof and fully audited etc and so we just did that and so in 21c you can now get a basically another feature of the converged database that says uh you know give me a sql table i can do everything i can query it i can insert rows into it but it's it's tamper proof i can't ever update it i can't delete rows from it amazon did the their usual thing they took again some open source technology and they said hey we got this great thing called quantum ledger database and it does blockchain tables but but if you want to do blockchain tables in any of their other databases you're out of luck they don't have it you have to go move the data into this new thing and it's again one of their it's again showing sort of the problem with their their proprietary this proprietary approach of having specialty databases versus just having one conversion that does it all so that's the blockchain cable feature uh we did a bunch of other things um the one i i think is worth mentioning the most is is support for persistent memory so a lot of people out there haven't noticed this this very interesting technology that intel shipped a couple years ago called optane data center memory and what it is it's basically a hybrid of flash memory which is persistent memory and standard dram which is not persistent means you can't store a database in dram um and so with this persistent memory you can basically have a database stored persistently in memory all the time and so it's a very innovative new technology from a database standpoint it's a very disruptive technology to the database market because now you can have an in-memory database basic period all the time 24 7. and so 21c is the first database out there that has native support for this new kind of persistent memory technology and we think it's it's really important so we're actually making it available as uh to our 19c customers as well and uh you know that's another technology i'd call out that we think is very unique we're way ahead of the game there and we're going to continue investing moving forward in that space as well yeah so that layer in between dram and and persistent flash that's that's a great innovation and good game changing from a from a performance and actually the way you write applications but i gotta i gotta ask you i and all the analysts were wrong with juan recently juan loyza and and to listen to that introduction of blockchain and everybody wants to know is safra going to start putting bitcoin on the oracle balance sheet i'm about to get that leap yeah that's a good question who knows yeah i can't comment on speculation ah that would be interesting okay last question then we got to go uh look oracle the narrative on oracle is you're expensive and you're mean you know it's hard to do business with do you care are you doing things to maybe change that perception in the cloud yeah i think we've made a very conscious decision that as we move to the cloud we're offering a totally new business model on the club that is a a cloud-native model you pay for what you use um you have everyday low prices you don't have to negotiate with some salesman for for months to get get a good price um so yeah we really like the message to get out there that those of you who think you know what oracle's all about um you know i and how it might be to work with oracle on in from your on premises days um you should really check out how oracle is now on the cloud we have this autonomous database technology really easy to use really simple any analysts can help get value out of the data without any help from any other engineers it's very unique it's it's uh it's the same technology you're used to but now it's delivered in a way that's much easier to consume and much lower cost and so yeah you should definitely take a look at what we've got out there on the cloud and it's all free to try out we got this free tier you can provision free vms free databases um free apex whatever you want and uh try it out and see what you think well thanks for that i was kidding about me and a lot of a lot of friends at oracle some relatives as well and thanks andy for coming on thecube today it's really great to talk to you yeah it's my pleasure and thanks for watching this is dave vellante we'll see you next time you

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> As you know by now, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, is stepping aside from his CEO role and AWS CEO, Andy Jassy, is being promoted to head all of Amazon. Bezos, of course, is going to remain executive chairman. Now, 15 years ago, next month, Amazon launched it's simple storage service, which was the first modern cloud offering. And the man who wrote the business plan for AWS, was Andy Jassy, and he's navigated the meteoric rise and disruption that has seen AWS grow into a $45 billion company that draws off the vast majority of Amazon's operating profits. No one in the media has covered Jassy more intimately and closely than John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And John joins us today to help us understand on theCUBE this move and what we can expect from Jassy in his new role, and importantly what it means for AWS. John, thanks for taking the time to speak with us. >> Hey, great day. Great to see you as always, we've done a lot of interviews together over the years and we're on our 11th year with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE. But I got to be excited too, that we're simulcasters on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. Love Clubhouse but not since the, in December. It's awesome. It's like Cube radio. It's like, so this is a Cube talk. So we opened up a Clubhouse room while we're filming this. We'll do more live hits in studio and syndicate the Clubhouse and then take questions after. This is a huge digital transformation moment. I'm part of the digital transformation club on Clubhouse which has almost 5,000 followers at the moment and also has like 500 members. So if you're not on Clubhouse, yet, if you have an iPhone go check it out and join the digital transformation club. Android users you'll have to wait until that app is done but it's really a great club. And Jeremiah Owyang is also doing a lot of stuff on digital transformation. >> Or you can just buy an iPhone and get in. >> Yeah, that's what people are doing. I can see all the influences are on there but to me, the digital transformation, it's always been kind of a cliche, the consumerization of IT, information technology. This has been the boring world of the enterprise over the past, 20 years ago. Enterprise right now is super hot because there's no distinction between enterprise and society. And that's clearly the, because of the rise of cloud computing and the rise of Amazon Web Services which was a side project at AWS, at Amazon that Andy Jassy did. And it wasn't really pleasant at the beginning. It was failed. It failed a lot and it wasn't as successful as people thought in the early days. And I have a lot of stories with Andy that he told me a lot of the inside baseball and we'll share that here today. But we started covering Amazon since the beginning. I was as an entrepreneur. I used it when it came out and a huge fan of them as a company because they just got a superior product and they have always had been but it was very misunderstood from the beginning. And now everyone's calling it the most important thing. And Andy now is becoming Andy Jassy, the most important executive in the world. >> So let's get it to the, I mean, look at, you said to me over holidays, you thought this might have something like this could happen. And you said, Jassy is probably in line to get this. So, tell us, what can you tell us about Jassy? Why is he qualified for this job? What do you think he brings to the table? >> Well, the thing that I know about Amazon everyone's been following the Amazon news is, Jeff Bezos has a lot of personal turmoil. They had his marriage fail. They had some issues with the smear campaigns and all this stuff going on, the run-ins with Donald Trump, he bought the Washington post. He's got a lot of other endeavors outside of Amazon cause he's the second richest man in the world competing with Elon Musk at Space X versus Blue Origin. So the guy's a billionaire. So Amazon is his baby and he's been running it as best he could. He's got an executive team committee they called the S team. He's been grooming people in the company and that's just been his mode. And the rise of AWS and the business performance that we've been documenting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, it's just been absolutely changing the game on Amazon as a company. So clearly Amazon Web Services become a driving force of the new Amazon that's emerging. And obviously they've got all their retail business and they got the gaming challenges and they got the studios and the other diversified stuff. So Jassy is just, he's just one of those guys. He's just been an Amazonian from day one. He came out of Harvard business school, drove across the country, very similar story to Jeff Bezos. He did that in 1997 and him and Jeff had been collaborating and Jeff tapped him to be his shadow, they call it, which is basically technical assistance and an heir apparent and groomed him. And then that's how it is. Jassy is not a climber as they call it in corporate America. He's not a person who is looking for a political gain. He's not a territory taker, but he's a micromanager. He loves details and he likes to create customer value. And that's his focus. So he's not a grandstander. In fact, he's been very low profile. Early days when we started meeting with him, he wouldn't meet with press regularly because they weren't writing the right stories. And everyone is, he didn't know he was misunderstood. So that's classic Amazon. >> So, he gave us the time, I think it was 2014 or 15 and he told us a story back then, John, you might want to share it as to how AWS got started. Why, what was the main spring Amazon's tech wasn't working that great? And Bezos said to Jassy, going to go figure out why and maybe explain how AWS was born. >> Yeah, we had, in fact, we were the first ones to get access to do his first public profile. If you go to the Google and search Andy Jassy, the trillion dollar baby, we had a post, we put out the story of AWS, Andy Jassy's trillion dollar baby. This was in early, this was January 2015, six years ago. And, we back then, we posited that this would be a trillion dollar total addressable market. Okay, people thought we were crazy but we wrote a story and he gave us a very intimate access. We did a full drill down on him and the person, the story of Amazon and that laid out essentially the beginning of the rise of AWS and Andy Jassy. So that's a good story to check out but really the key here is, is that he's always been relentless and competitive on creating value in what they call raising the bar outside Amazon. That's a term that they use. They also have another leadership principle called working backwards, which is like, go to the customer and work backwards from the customer in a very Steve Job's kind of way. And that's been kind of Jobs mentality as well at Apple that made them successful work backwards from the customer and make things easier. And that was Apple. Amazon, their philosophy was work backwards from the customer and Jassy specifically would say it many times and eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That was a key principle of what they were doing. So that was a key thesis of their entire business model. And that's the Amazonian way. Faster, cheaper, ship it faster, make it less expensive and higher value. While when you apply the Amazon shipping concept to cloud computing, it was completely disrupted. They were shipping code and services faster and that became their innovation strategy. More announcements every year, they out announced their competition by huge margin. They introduced new services faster and they're less expensive some say, but in the aggregate, they make more money but that's kind of a key thing. >> Well, when you, I was been listening to the TV today and there was a debate on whether or not, this support tends that they'll actually split the company into two. To me, I think it's just the opposite. I think it's less likely. I mean, if you think about Amazon getting into grocery or healthcare, eventually financial services or other industries and the IOT opportunity to me, what they do, John, is they bring in together the cloud, data and AI and they go attack these new industries. I would think Jassy of all people would want to keep this thing together now whether or not the government allows them to do that. But what are your thoughts? I mean, you've asked Andy this before in your personal interviews about splitting the company. What are your thoughts? >> Well, Jon Fortt at CNBC always asked the same question every year. It's almost like the standard question. I kind of laugh and I ask it now too because I liked Jon Fortt. I think he's an awesome dude. And I'll, it's just a tongue in cheek, Jassy. He won't answer the question. Amazon, Bezos and Jassy have one thing in common. They're really good at not answering questions. So if you ask the same question. They'll just say, nothing's ever, never say never, that's his classic answer to everything. Never say never. And he's always said that to you. (chuckles) Some say, he's, flip-flopped on things but he's really customer driven. For example, he said at one point, no one should ever build a data center. Okay, that was a principle. And then they come out and they have now a hybrid strategy. And I called them out on that and said, hey, what, are you flip-flopping? You said at some point, no one should have a data center. He's like, well, we looked at it differently and what we meant was is that, it should all be cloud native. Okay. So that's kind of revision, but he's cool with that. He says, hey, we'll revise based on what customers are doing. VMware working with Amazon that no one ever thought that would happen. Okay. So, VMware has some techies, Raghu, for instance, over there, super top notch. He worked with Jassy, directly in his team Sanjay Poonen when they went to business school together, they cut a deal. And now Amazon essentially saved VMware, in my opinion. And Pat Gelsinger drove that deal. Now, Pat Gelsinger, CEO, Intel, and Pat told me that directly in candid conversation off theCUBE, he said, hey, we have to make a decision either we're going to be in cloud or we're not going to be in cloud, we will partner. And I'll see, he was Intel. He understood the Intel inside mentality. So that's good for VMware. So Jassy does these kinds of deals. He's not afraid he's got a good stomach for business and a relentless competitor. >> So, how do you think as you mentioned Jassy is a micromanager. He gets deep into the technology. Anybody who's seen his two hour, three hour keynotes. No, he has a really fine grasp of the technology across the entire stack. How do you think John, he will approach things like antitrust, the big tech lash of the unionization of the workforce at Amazon? How do you think Jassy will approach that? >> Well, I think one of the things that emerges Jassy, first of all, he's a huge sports fan. And many people don't know that but he's also progressive person. He's very progressive politically. He's been on the record and off the record saying things like, obviously, literacy has been big on, he's been on basically unrepresented minorities, pushing for that, and certainly cloud computing in tech, women in tech, he's been a big proponent. He's been a big supporter of Teresa Carlson. Who's been rising star at Amazon. People don't know who Teresa Carlson is and they should check out her. She's become one of the biggest leaders inside Amazon she's turned around public sector from the beginning. She ran that business, she's a global star. He's been a great leader and he's been getting, forget he's a micromanager, he's on top of the details. I mean, the word is, and nothing gets approved without Andy, Andy seeing it. But he's been progressive. He's been an Amazon original as they call it internally. He's progressive, he's got the business acumen but he's perfect for this pragmatic conversation that needs to happen. And again, because he's so technically strong having a CEO that's that proficient is going to give Amazon an advantage when they have to go in and change how DC works, for instance, or how the government geopolitical landscape works, because Amazon is now a global company with regions all over the place. So, I think he's pragmatic, he's open to listening and changing. I think that's a huge quality >> Well, when you think of this, just to set the context here for those who may not know, I mean, Amazon started as I said back in 2006 in March with simple storage service that later that year they announced EC2 which is their compute platform. And that was the majority of their business, is still a very large portion of their business but Amazon, our estimates are that in 2020, Amazon did 45 billion, 45.4 billion in revenue. That's actually an Amazon reported number. And just to give you a context, Azure about 26 billion GCP, Google about 6 billion. So you're talking about an industry that Amazon created. That's now $78 billion and Amazon at 45 billion. John they're growing at 30% annually. So it's just a massive growth engine. And then another story Jassy told us, is they, he and Jeff and the team talked early on about whether or not they should just sort of do an experiment, do a little POC, dip their toe in and they decided to go for it. Let's go big or go home as Michael Dell has said to us many times, I mean, pretty astounding. >> Yeah. One of the things about Jassy that people should know about, I think there's some compelling relative to the newest ascension to the CEO of Amazon, is that he's not afraid to do new things. For instance, I'll give you an example. The Amazon Web Services re-invent their annual conference grew to being thousands and thousands of people. And they would have a traditional after party. They called a replay, they'd have a band like every tech conference and their conference became so big that essentially, it was like setting up a live concert. So they were spending millions of dollars to set up basically a one night concert and they'd bring in great, great artists. So he said, hey, what's been all this cash? Why don't we just have a festival? So they did a thing called Intersect. They got LA involved from creatives and they basically built a weekend festival in the back end of re-invent. This was when real life was, before COVID and they turned into an opportunity because that's the way they think. They like to look at the resources, hey, we're already all in on this, why don't we just keep it for the weekend and charge some tickets and have a good time. He's not afraid to take chances on the product side. He'll go in and take a chance on a new market. That comes from directly from Bezos. They try stuff. They don't mind failing but they put a tight leash on measurement. They work backwards from the customer and they are not afraid to take chances. So, that's going to board well for him as he tries to figure out how Amazon navigates the contention on the political side when they get challenged for their dominance. And I think he's going to have to apply that pragmatic experimentation to new business models. >> So John I want you to take on AWS. I mean, despite the large numbers, I talked about 30% growth, Azure is growing at over 50% a year, GCP at 83%. So despite the large numbers and big growth the growth rates are slowing. Everybody knows that, we've reported it extensively. So the incoming CEO of Amazon Web Services has a TAM expansion challenge. And at some point they've got to decide, okay, how do we keep this growth engine? So, do you have any thoughts as to who might be the next CEO and what are some of their challenges as you see it? >> Well, Amazon is a real product centric company. So it's going to be very interesting to see who they go with here. Obviously they've been grooming a lot of people. There's been some turnover. You had some really strong executives recently leave, Jeff Wilkes, who was the CEO of the retail business. He retired a couple of months ago, formerly announced I think recently, he was probably in line. You had Mike Clayville, is now the chief revenue officer of Stripe. He ran all commercial business, Teresa Carlson stepped up to his role as well as running public sector. Again, she got more power. You have Matt Garman who ran the EC2 business, Stanford grad, great guy, super strong on the product side. He's now running all commercial sales and marketing. And he's also on the, was on Bezos' S team, that's the executive kind of team. Peter DeSantis is also on that S team. He runs all infrastructure. He took over for James Hamilton, who was the genius behind all the data center work that they've done and all the chip design stuff that they've innovated on. So there's so much technical innovation going on. I think you still going to see a leadership probably come from, I would say Matt Garman, in my opinion is the lead dog at this point, he's the lead horse. You could have an outside person come in depending upon how, who might be available. And that would probably come from an Andy Jassy network because he's a real fierce competitor but he's also a loyalist and he likes trust. So if someone comes in from the outside, it's going to be someone maybe he trusts. And then the other wildcards are like Teresa Carlson. Like I said, she is a great woman in tech who's done amazing work. I've profiled her many times. We've interviewed her many times. She took that public sector business with Amazon and changed the game completely. Outside the Jedi contract, she was in competitive for, had the big Trump showdown with the Jedi, with the department of defense. Had the CIA cloud. Amazon set the standard on public sector and that's directly the result of Teresa Carlson. But she's in the field, she's not a product person, she's kind of running that group. So Amazon has that product field kind of structure. So we'll see how they handle that. But those are the top three I think are going to be in line. >> So the obvious question that people always ask and it is a big change like this is, okay, in this case, what is Jassy going to bring in? And what's going to change? Maybe the flip side question is somewhat more interesting. What's not going to change in your view? Jassy has been there since nearly the beginning. What are some of the fundamental tenets that he's, that are fossilized, that won't change, do you think? >> I think he's, I think what's not going to change is Amazon, is going to continue to grow and develop their platform business and enable more SaaS players. That's a little bit different than what Microsoft's doing. They're more SaaS oriented, Office 365 is becoming their biggest application in terms of revenue on Microsoft side. So Amazon is going to still have to compete and enable more ecosystem partners. I think what's not going to change is that Bezos is still going to be in charge because executive chairman is just a code word for "not an active CEO." So in the corporate governance world when you have an executive chairman, that's essentially the person still in charge. And so he'll be in charge, will still be the boss of Andy Jassy and Jassy will be running all of Amazon. So I think that's going to be a little bit the same, but Jassy is going to be more in charge. I think you'll see a team change over, whether you're going to see some new management come in, Andy's management team will expand, I think Amazon will stay the same, Amazon Web Services. >> So John, last night, I was just making some notes about notable transitions in the history of the tech business, Gerstner to Palmisano, Gates to Ballmer, and then Ballmer to Nadella. One that you were close to, David Packard to John Young and then John Young to Lew Platt at the old company. Ellison to Safra and Mark, Jobs to Cook. We talked about Larry Page to Sundar Pichai. So how do you see this? And you've talked to, I remember when you interviewed John Chambers, he said, there is no rite of passage, East coast mini-computer companies, Edson de Castro, Ken Olsen, An Wang. These were executives who wouldn't let go. So it's of interesting to juxtapose that with the modern day executive. How do you see this fitting in to some of those epic transitions that I just mentioned? >> I think a lot of people are surprised at Jeff Bezos', even stepping down. I think he's just been such the face of Amazon. I think some of the poll numbers that people are doing on Twitter, people don't think it's going to make a big difference because he's kind of been that, leader hand on the wheel, but it's been its own ship now, kind of. And so depending on who's at the helm, it will be different. I think the Amazon choice of Andy wasn't obvious. And I think a lot of people were asking the question who was Andy Jassy and that's why we're doing this. And we're going to be doing more features on the Andy Jassy. We got a tons, tons of content that we've we've had shipped, original content with them. We'll share more of those key soundbites and who he is. I think a lot of people scratching their head like, why Andy Jassy? It's not obvious to the outsiders who don't know cloud computing. If you're in the competing business, in the digital transformation side, everyone knows about Amazon Web Services. Has been the most successful company, in my opinion, since I could remember at many levels just the way they've completely dominated the business and how they change others to be dominant. So, I mean, they've made Microsoft change, it made Google change and even then he's a leader that accepts conversations. Other companies, their CEOs hide behind their PR wall and they don't talk to people. They won't come on Clubhouse. They won't talk to the press. They hide behind their PR and they feed them, the media. Jassy is not afraid to talk to reporters. He's not afraid to talk to people, but he doesn't like people who don't know what they're talking about. So he doesn't suffer fools. So, you got to have your shit together to talk to Jassy. That's really the way it is. And that's, and he'll give you mind share, like he'll answer any question except for the ones that are too tough for him to answer. Like, are you, is facial recognition bad or good? Are you going to spin out AWS? I mean these are the hard questions and he's got a great team. He's got Jay Carney, former Obama press secretary working for him. He's been a great leader. So I'm really bullish on, is a good choice. >> We're going to jump into the Clubhouse here and open it up shortly. John, the last question for you is competition. Amazon as a company and even Jassy specifically I always talk about how they don't really focus on the competition, they focus on the customer but we know that just observing these folks Bezos is very competitive individual. Jassy, I mean, you know him better than I, very competitive individual. So, and he's, Jassy has been known to call out Oracle. Of course it was in response to Larry Ellison's jabs at Amazon regarding database. But, but how do you see that? Do you see that changing at all? I mean, will Amazon get more publicly competitive or they stick to their knitting, you think? >> You know this is going to sound kind of a weird analogy. And I know there's a lot of hero worshiping on Elon Musk but Elon Musk and Andy Jassy have a lot of similarities in the sense of their brilliance. They got both a brilliant people, different kinds of backgrounds. Obviously, they're running different things. They both are builders, right? If you were listening to Elon Musk on Clubhouse the other night, what was really striking was not only the magic of how it was all orchestrated and what he did and how he interviewed Robin Hood. He basically is about building stuff. And he was asked questions like, what advice do you give startups? He's like, if you need advice you shouldn't be doing startups. That's the kind of mentality that Jassy has, which is, it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart, but Elon Musk is a builder. Jassy builds, he likes to build stuff, right? And so you look at all the things that he's done with AWS, it's been about enabling people to be successful with the tools that they need, adding more services, creating things that are lower price point. If you're an entrepreneur and you're over the age of 30, you know about AWS because you know what, it's cheaper to start a business on Amazon Web Services than buying servers and everyone knows that. If you're under the age of 25, you might not know 50 grand to a hundred thousand just to start something. Today you get your credit card down, you're up and running and you can get Clubhouses up and running all day long. So the next Clubhouse will be on Amazon or a cloud technology. And that's because of Andy Jassy right? So this is a significant executive and he continue, will bring that mindset of building. So, I think the digital transformation, we're in the digital engine club, we're going to see a complete revolution of a new generation. And I think having a new leader like Andy Jassy will enable in my opinion next generation talent, whether that's media and technology convergence, media technology and art convergence and the fact that he digs music, he digs sports, he digs tech, he digs media, it's going to be very interesting to see, I think he's well-poised to be, and he's soft-spoken, he doesn't want the glamorous press. He doesn't want the puff pieces. He just wants to do what he does and he puts his game do the talking. >> Talking about advice at startups. Just a quick aside. I remember, John, you and I when we were interviewing Scott McNealy former CEO of Sun Microsystems. And you asked him advice for startups. He said, move out of California. It's kind of tongue in cheek. I heard this morning that there's a proposal to tax the multi-billionaires of 1% annually not just the one-time tax. And so Jeff Bezos of course, has a ranch in Texas, no tax there, but places all over. >> You see I don't know. >> But I don't see Amazon leaving Seattle anytime soon, nor Jassy. >> Jeremiah Owyang did a Clubhouse on California. And the basic sentiment is that, it's California is not going away. I mean, come on. People got to just get real. I think it's a fad. Yeah. This has benefits with remote working, no doubt, but people will stay here in California, the network affects beautiful. I think Silicon Valley is going to continue to be relevant. It's just going to syndicate differently. And I think other hubs like Seattle and around the world will be integrated through remote work and I think it's going to be much more of a democratizing effect, not a win lose. So that to me is a huge shift. And look at Amazon, look at Amazon and Microsoft. It's the cloud cities, so people call Seattle. You've got Google down here and they're making waves but still, all good stuff. >> Well John, thanks so much. Let's let's wrap and let's jump into the Clubhouse and hear from others. Thanks so much for coming on, back on theCUBE. And many times we, you and I've done this really. It was a pleasure having you. Thanks for your perspectives. And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft ambient music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Much of the discussion around Intel's current challenges, is focused on manufacturing issues and it's ongoing market share skirmish with AMD. Of course, that's very understandable. But the core issue Intel faces is that it has lost the volume game forever. And in Silicon volume is king. As such incoming CEO Pat Gelsinger faces some difficult decisions. I mean, on the one hand he could take some logical steps to shore up the company's execution, maybe outsource a portion of its manufacturing. Make some incremental changes that would unquestionably please Wall Street and probably drive shareholder value when combined with the usual stock buybacks and dividends. On the other hand, Gelsinger could make much more dramatic moves shedding it's vertically integrated heritage and transforming Intel into a leading designer of chips for the emerging multi-trillion dollar markets that are highly fragmented and generally referred to as the edge. We believe Intel has no choice. It must create a deep partnership in our view with a semiconductor manufacturer with aspirations to manufacture on US soil and focus Intel's resources on design. Hello, everyone. And welcome to this week's Wikibon's Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis will put forth our prognosis for what Intel's future looks like and lay out what we think the company needs to do not only to maintain its relevance but to regain the position it once held as perhaps the most revered company in tech. Let's start by looking at some of the fundamental factors that we've been tracking and that have shaped and are shaping Intel and our thinking around Intel today. First, it's really important to point out that new CEO Gelsinger is walking into a really difficult situation. Intel's ascendancy and its dominance it was created by PC volumes. And its development of an ecosystem that the company created around the x86 instruction set. In semiconductors volume is everything. The player with the highest volumes has the lowest manufacturing costs. And the math around learning curves is very clear and it's compelling. It's based on Wright's law named after Theodore Wright T.P Wright. He was an aeronautical engineer and he discovered that for every cumulative doubling of units manufactured, costs are going to fall by a constant percentage. Now in semiconductor way for manufacturing that cost is roughly around 22% declines. And when you consider the economics of manufacturing a next generation technology, for example going from ten nanometers to seven nanometers this becomes huge. Because the cost of making seven nanometer tech for example is much higher relative to 10 nanometers. But if you can fit more circuits on a chip your wafer costs can drop by 30% or even more. Now this learning curve benefit is why volume is so important. If the time it takes to double volume is elongated then the learning curve benefit they get elongated as well and it become less competitive from a cost standpoint. And that's exactly what is happening to Intel. You see x86 PC volumes, they peaked in 2011 and that marked the beginning of the end of Intel's dominance from manufacturing and cost standpoint. You know, ironically HDD hard disk drive volumes peaked around the same time and you're seeing a similar fundamental shift in that market relative to flash. Now because Intel has a vertically integrated model it's designers are limited by the constraints in the manufacturing process. What used to be Intel's ace in the hole its process manufacturing has become a hindrance, frustrating Intel's chip designers and really seeding advantage to a number of competitors including AMD, ARM and Nvidia. Now, during this time we've seen high profile innovators adapting alternative processors companies like Apple which chose its own design based on ARM for the M1. Tesla is a fascinating case study where Intel was really not in the running. AWS probably Intel's largest customer is developing its own chips. You know through Intel, a little bone at the recent reinvent it announced its use of Intel's Habana chips in a practically the same sentence that talked about how it was developing a similar chip that would provide even better price performance. And just last month it was reported that Microsoft Intel's monopoly partner in the PC era was developing its own ARM-based chips for the surface PCs and for its servers. Intel's Zenith was marked by those peak PC volumes that we talked about. Now to stress this point this chart shows x86 PC volumes over time. That red highlighted area shows the peak years. Now, volumes actually grew in 2020 in part due to COVID which is not really reflected in this chart but the volume game was lost for Intel. When it has been widely reported that in 2005 Steve Jobs approached Intel as it was replacing IBM microprocessors with with Intel processors for the Mac and asked Intel to develop the chip for the iPhone Intel passed and the die was cast. Now to the earlier point, PC markets are actually quite good if you're Dell. Here's some ETR data that shows Dell's laptop net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum for 2020 and into 2021. Dell's client business has been very good and profitable and frankly, it's been a pleasant surprise. You know, PCs they're doing well. And as you can see in this chart, Dell has momentum. There's approximately 275 million maybe as high as 300 million PC units shipped worldwide in 2020, you know up double digits by some estimates. However, ARM chip units shipped exceeded 20 billion units last year worldwide. And it's not apples to apples. You know, we're comparing x86 based PCs to ARM chips. So this excludes x86 servers, but the way for volume for ARM dwarfs that of x86 probably by a factor of 10 times. Back to Wright's law, how long is it going to take Intel to double wafer volumes? It's not going to happen. And trust me, Pat Gelsinger understands this dynamic probably better than anyone in the world and certainly better than I do. And as you look out to the future, the story for Intel and it's vertically integrated approach it's even tougher. This chart shows Wikibon's 2020 forecast for ARM based compared to x86 based PCs. It also includes some other devices but as you can see what happens by the end of the decade is ARM really starts to eat in to x86. As we've seen with the M1 at Apple, ARM is competing in PCs in much better position for these emerging devices that support things like video and virtual reality systems. And we think even will start to eat into the enterprise. So again, the volume game is over for Intel, period. They're never going to win it back. Well, you might ask what about revenue? Intel still dominates in the data center right? Well, yes. And that is much higher revenue per unit but we still believe that revenue from ARM-based systems are going to surpass that of x86 by the end of the decade. Arm compute revenue is shown in the orange area in this chart with x86 in the blue. This means to us that Intel's last mot is going to be its position in the data center. It has to protect that at all costs. Now the market knows this. It knows something's wrong with Intel. And you can see that is reflected in the valuations of semiconductor companies. This chart compares the trailing 12 month revenue in the market valuations for Intel, Nvidia, AMD and Qualcomm. And you can see at a trailing 12 month multiple revenue with 3 X compared to about 22 X for Nvidia about 10 X for AMT and Qualcomm, Intel is lagging behind in the street's view. And Intel, as you can see here, it's now considered a cheap stock by many, you know. Here's a graph that shows the performance over the past 12 months compared to the NASDAQ which you can see that major divergence. NASDAQ has been powered part by COVID and all the new tech and the work from home. The stock reacted very well to the appointment of Gelsinger. That's no surprise. The question people are asking is what's next for Intel? How will Pat turn the company's fortunes around? How long is it going to take? What moves can he and should he make? How will they be received by the market? And internally, very importantly, within Intel's culture. These are big chewy questions and people are split on what should be done. I've heard everything from Pat should just clean up the execution issues. It's no.. This is, you know, very workable and not make any major strategic moves all the way to Intel should do a hybrid outsourced model to Intel should aggressively move out of manufacturing. Let me read some things from Barron's and some other media. Intel has fallen behind rivals and the rest of tech Intel is replacing Bob Swan. Investors are cheering the move. Intel would likely turn to Taiwan semiconductor for chips. Here's who benefits most. So let's take a look at some of the opinions that are inside these articles. So, first one I'm going to pull out Intel has indicated a willingness to try new things and investors expect the company to announce a hybrid manufacturing approach in January. Now, if you take a look at that and you quote a CEO Swan, he says, what has changed is that we have much more flexibility in our designs. And with that type of design we have the ability to move things in and move things out. And that gives us a little more flexibility about what we will make and what we might take from the outside. So let's unpack that a little bit. The new Intel, we know is a highly vertically integrated workflow from design to manufacturing production. But to me, the designers are the artists and the flexibility you would think would come from outsourcing manufacturer to give designers more flexibility to take advantage of say seven nanometer or five nanometer process technologies versus having to wait for Intel to catch up. It used to be that Intel's process was the industry's best and it could supercharge a design or even mask certain design challenges so that Intel could maintain its edge but that's no longer the case. Here's a sentiment from an analyst, Daniel Donnelly. Donnelly is at Citi. It says he's confident. Donnelly is confident that Intel's decision to outsource more of its production won't result in the company divesting its entire manufacturing segment. And he cited three reasons. One, it would take roughly three years to bring a chip to market. And two, Intel would have to share IP. And three, it would hurt Intel's profit margins. He said it would negatively impact gross margins by 10 points and would cause a 25% decline in EPS. Now I don't know about this. I would... To that I would say one, Intel needs to reduce its current cycle time, to go from design to production from let's say three to four years where it is today. It's got to get it under you know, at least at two years maybe even less. Second, I would say is what good is intellectual property if it's not helping you win in the market? And three, I think profitability is nuance. So here's another take from a UBS analyst. His name is Timothy Arcuri. And he says, quote, We see but no option but for Intel to aggressively pursue an outsourcing strategy. He wrote that Intel could be 80% outsourced by 2026. And just by going to 50% outsourcing, he said would save the company $4 billion annually in CapEx and 25% would drop to free cashflow. So look, maybe Gelsinger has to sacrifice some gross margin in EPS for the time being. Reduce the cost of goods sold by outsourcing manufacturing lower its CapEx and fund innovation in design with free cash flow. Here's our take, Pat Gelsinger needs to look in the mirror and ask what would Andy Grove do? You know, Grove's quote that only the paranoid survive its famous less well-known are the words that proceeded that quote. Success breeds complacency and complacency breeds failure. Intel in our view is headed on a path to a long drawn out failure if it doesn't act aggressively. It simply can't compete on cost as an integrated manufacturer because it doesn't have the volume. So what will Pat Gelsinger do? You know, we've probably done 30 Cube interviews with Pat and I just don't think he's taking the job to make some incremental changes to Intel to get the stock price back up. Why would that excite Pat Gelsinger? Trends, markets, people, society, he's a dot connector and he loves Intel deeply. And he's a legend at the company. Here's what we strongly believe. We think Intel has to do a deal with TSM or maybe Samsung perhaps some kind of joint venture or other innovative structure that both protects its IP and secures its future. You know, both of these manufacturers would love to have a stronger US presence. In markets where Intel has many manufacturing facilities they may even be willing to take a loss to get this started and deeply partner with Intel for some period of time This would allow Intel to better compete on a cost basis with AMD. It would protect its core data center revenue and allow it to fight the fight in PCs with better cost structures. Maybe even gain some share that could count for, you know another $10 billion to the top line. Intel should focus on reducing its cycle times and unleashing its designers to create new solutions. Let a manufacturing partner who has the learning curve advantages enable Intel designers to innovate and extend ecosystems into new markets. Autonomous vehicles, factory floor use cases, military security, distributed cloud the coming telco explosion with 5G, AI inferencing at the edge. Bite the bullet, give up on yesterday's playbook and reinvent Intel for the next 50 years. That's what we'd like to see. And that's what we think Gelsinger will conclude when he channels his mentor. What do you think? Please comment on my LinkedIn posts. You can DM me at dvellante or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes remember are also available as podcasts for your listening pleasure. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. Many thanks to my friend and colleague David Floyer who contributed to this episode and that has done great work in the last better part of the last decade and has really thought through some of the cost factors that we talked about today. Also don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action. Thanks for watching this episode of the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. We're not in person because of the pandemic. We're doing the remote Cube Cube Virtual were the Cube virtual. I'm your host, John for here with Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon Web services, in for his annual at the end of the show comes on the Cube. This year, it's virtual Andy. Good to see you remotely in Seattle or in Palo Alto. Uh, Dave couldn't make it in a personal conflict, but he says, Hello, great to see you. >>Great to see you as well, John. It's an annual tradition. On the last day of reinvent. I wish we were doing it in person, but I'm glad at least were able to do it. Virtually >>the good news is, I know you could arrested last night normally at reinvent you just like we're all both losing our voice at the end of the show. At least me more than you, your and we're just at the end of like okay, Relief. It happens here. It's different. It's been three weeks has been virtual. Um, you guys had a unique format this year went much better than I expected. It would go on because I was pretty skeptical about these long, um, multiple days or weeks events. You guys did a good job of timing it out and creating these activations and with key news, starting with your keynote on December 1st. Now, at the end of the three weeks, um, tell me, are you surprised by the results? Can you give us, Ah, a feeling for how you think everything went? What's what's your take So far as we close out reinvented >>Well, I think it's going really well. I mean, we always gnome or a Z get past, reinvent and you start, you know, collecting all the feedback. But we've been watching all the metrics and you know, there's trade offs. Of course, now I think all of us giving our druthers would be together in Las Vegas, and I think it's hard to replace that feeling of being with people and the excitement of learning about things together and and making decisions together after you see different sessions that you're gonna make big changes in your company and for your customer experience. And yeah, and there's a community peace. And there's, you know, this from being there. There's a concert. The answer. I think people like being with one another. But, you know, I think this was the best that any of us could imagine doing doing a virtual event. And we had to really reinvent, reinvent and all the pieces to it. And now I think that some of the positive trade offs are they. You get a lot mawr engagement than you would normally get in person So normally. Last year, with about 65,000 people in Las Vegas this year, we had 530,000 people registered to reinvent and over 300,000 participate in some fashion. All the sessions had a lot more people who are participating just because you remove the constraints of of travel in costs, and so there are trade offs. I think we prefer being together, but I think it's been a really good community event, um, in learning event for for our customers, and we've been really pleased with it so >>far. No doubt I would totally agree with you. I think a lot of people like, Hey, I love to walk the floor and discover Harry and Sarah Davis moments of finding an exhibit her and the exhibit hall or or attending a session or going to a party, bumping into friends and seeing making new friends. But I think one of the things I want to get your reaction to it. So I think this is comes up. And, you know, we've been doing a lot of Q virtual for the past year, and and everyone pretty much agrees that when we go back, it's gonna be a hybrid world in the sense of events as well as cloud. You know that. But you know, I think one of the things that I noticed this year with reinvent is it almost was a democratization of reinvent. So you really had to reinvent the format. You had 300,000 plus people attend 500 pending email addresses, but now you've got a different kind of beehive community. So you're a bar raiser thinker. It's with the culture of Amazon. So I gotta ask you do the economics does this new kind of extra epiphany impact you and how you raise the bar to keep the best of the face to face when it comes back. And then if you keep the virtual any thoughts on how to leverage this and kind of get more open, it was free. You guys made it free this year and people did show up. >>Yeah, it's a really good question, and it's probably a question will be better equipped to answer in a month or two after we kind of debrief we always do after reading that we spend. Actually, I really enjoy the meeting because the team, the Collective A. W s team, works so hard in this event. There's so many months across everything. All the product teams, um, you know, all the marketing folks, all the event folks, and I think they do a terrific job with it. And we we do about 2.5 3 hour debrief on everything we did, things that we thought was really well the things that we thought we could do better and all the feedback we get from our community and so I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't find things from what we tried this year that we incorporate into what we do when we're back to being a person again. You know, of course, none of us really know when we'll be back in person again. Re event happens to fall on the time of the year, which is early December. And so you with with a lot of people seemingly able to get vaccinated, probably by you know, they'd spring early summer. You could kind of imagine that we might be able to reinvent in person next year. We'll have to see e think we all hope we will. But I'm sure there are a number of pieces that we will take from this and incorporate into what we do in person. And you know, then it's just a matter of how far you go. >>Fingers crossed and you know it's a hybrid world for the Cube two and reinvent and clouds. Let's get into the announcement. I want to get your your take as you look back now. I mean, how many announcements is you guys have me and a lot of announcements this year. Which ones did you like? Which one did you think were jumping off the page, which ones resonated the most or had impact. Can you share kind of just some stats on e mean how many announcements launches you did this >>year? But we had about 100 50 different new services and features that we announced over the last three weeks and reinvent And there, you know the question you're asking. I could easily spend another three hours like my Kino. You know, answering you all the ones that I like thought were important. You know, I think that, you know, some of the ones I think that really stood out for people. I think first on the compute side, I just think the, um the excitement around what we're doing with chips, um, is very clear. I think what we've done with gravitas to our generalized compute to give people 40% better price performance and they could find in the latest generation X 86 processors is just It's a huge deal. If you could save 40% price performance on computer, you get a lot more done for less on. Then you know some of the chip work we're doing in machine learning with inferential on the inference chips that we built And then what? We announced the trainee, um, on the machine learning training ship. People are very excited about the chip announcements. I think also, people on the container side is people are moving to smaller and smaller units of compute. I think people were very taken with the notion of E. K s and D. C s anywhere so they can run whatever container orchestration framework they're running in A. W s also on premises. To make it easier, Thio manage their deployments and containers. I think data stores was another space where I think people realize how much more data they're dealing with today. And we gave a couple statistics and the keynote that I think are kind of astonishing that, you know, every every hour today, people are creating mawr content that there was in an entire year, 20 years ago or the people expect more data to be created. The next three years in the prior 30 years combined these air astonishing numbers and it requires a brand new reinvention of data stores. And so I think people are very excited about Block Express, which is the first sand in the cloud and there really excited about Aurora in general, but then Aurora surveillance V two that allow you to scale up to hundreds of thousands of transactions per second and saved about 90% of supervision or people very excited about that. I think machine learning. You know, uh, Sage Maker has just been a game changer and the ease with which everyday developers and data scientists can build, train, tune into play machine learning models. And so we just keep knocking out things that are hard for people. Last year we launched the first i D for Machine Learning, the stage maker studio. This year, if you look at things that we announced, like Data Wrangler, which changes you know the process of Data Prep, which is one of the most time consuming pieces in machine learning or our feature store or the first see, I see deeper machine learning with pipelines or clarify, which allow you to have explain ability in your models. Those are big deals to people who are trying to build machine learning models, and you know that I'd say probably the last thing that we hear over and over again is really just the excitement around Connect, which is our call center service, which is just growing unbelievably fast and just, you know, the the fact that it's so easy to get started and so easy to scale so much more cost effective with, you know, built from the ground up on the cloud and with machine learning and ai embedded. And then adding some of the capabilities to give agents the right information, the right time about customers and products and real time capabilities for supervisors. Throw when calls were kind of going off the rails and to be ableto thio, stop the the contact before it becomes something, it hurts. The brand is there. Those are all big deals that people have been excited about. >>I think the connecting as I want to just jump on that for a second because I think when we first met many, many years ago, star eighth reinvent. You know the trends are always the same. You guys do a great job. Slew of announcements. You keep raising the bar. But one of the things that you mentioned to me when we talked about the origination of a W S was you were doing some stuff for Amazon proper, and you had a, you know, bootstrap team and you're solving your own problems, getting some scar tissue, the affiliate thing, all these examples. The trend is you guys tend to do stuff for yourself and then re factor it into potentially opportunities for your customers. And you're working backwards. All that good stuff. We'll get into that next section. But this year, more than ever, I think with the pandemic connect, you got chime, you got workspaces. This acceleration of you guys being pretty nimble on exposing these services. I mean, connect was a call center. It's an internal thing that you guys had been using. You re factored that for customer consumption. You see that kind of china? But you're not competing with Zoom. You're offering a service toe bundle in. Is this mawr relevant? Now, as you guys get bigger with more of these services because you're still big now you're still serving yourself. What? That seems to be a big trend now, coming out of the pandemic. Can you comment on um, >>yeah, It's a good question, John. And you know we do. We do a bunch of both. Frankly, you know, there there's some services where our customers. We're trying to solve certain problems and they tell us about those problems and then we build new services for him. So you know a good example that was red shift, which is our data warehouse and service, you know, two or three very large customers of ours. When we went to spend time with them and asked them what we could do to help them further, they just said, I wish I had a data warehousing service for the cloud that was built in the AWS style way. Um and they were really fed up with what they were using. Same thing was true with relation databases where people were just fed up with the old guard commercial, great commercial, great databases of Oracle and Sequel Server. And they hated the pricing and the proprietary nature of them and the punitive licensing. And they they wanted to move to these open engines like my sequel and post dress. But to get the same performance is the commercial great databases hard? So we solve that problem with them. With Aurora, which is our fastest growing service in our history, continues to be so there's sometimes when customers articulate a need, and we don't have a service that we've been running internally. But we way listen, and we have a very strong and innovative group of builders here where we build it for customers. And then there are other cases where customers say and connect with a great example of this. Connect with an example where some of our customers like into it. And Capital One said, You know, we need something for our contact center and customer service, and people weren't very happy with what they were using in that space. And they said, You, you've had to build something just to manage your retail business last 15, 20 years Can't you find a way to generalize that expose it? And when you have enough customers tell you that there's something that they want to use that you have experienced building. You start to think about it, and it's never a simple. It's just taking that technology and exposing it because it's often built, um, internally and you do a number of things to optimize it internally. But we have a way of building services and Amazon, where we do this working backwards process that you're referring to, where We build everything with the press release and frequently asked questions document, and we imagine that we're building it to be externalized even if it's an internal feature. But our feature for our retail business, it's only gonna be used as part of some other service that you never imagine Externalizing to third party developers. We always try and build it that way, and we always try to have well documented, hardened AP eyes so that other teams can use it without having to coordinate with those teams. And so it makes it easier for us to think about Externalizing it because we're a good part of the way there and we connect we. That's what we did way generalized it way built it from the ground up on top of the cloud. And then we embedded a bunch of AI and it so that people could do a number of things that would have taken him, you know, months to do with big development teams that they could really point, click and do so. We really try to do both. >>I think that's a great example of some of the scale benefits is worth calling out because that was a consistent theme this past year, The people we've reported on interviewed that Connect really was a lifeline for many during the pandemic and way >>have 5000 different customers who started using connect during the pandemic alone. Where they, you know, overnight they had to basically deal with having a a call center remotely. And so they picked up connect and they spun up call center remotely, and they didn't really quickly. And you know, it's that along with workspaces, which are virtual desktops in the cloud and things like Chime and some of our partners, Exume have really been lifelines for people. Thio have business continuity during a tandem. >>I think there's gonna be a whole set of new services that are gonna emerge You talked about in your keynote. We talked about it prior to the event where you know, if this pandemic hit with that five years ago, when there wasn't the advancements in, say, videoconferencing, it'd be a whole different world. And I think the whole world can see on full display that having integrated video communications and other cool things is gonna have a productivity benefit. And that's kind >>of could you imagine what the world would have been like the last nine months and we didn't have competent videoconferencing. I mean, just think about how different it would have been. And I think that all of these all of these capabilities today are kind of the occult 1.5 capabilities where, by the way, thank God for them. We've we've all been able to be productive because of them. But there's so early stage, they're all going to get evolved. I'm so significantly, I mean, even just today, you know, I was spending some time with with our team thinking about when we start to come back to the office and bigger numbers. And we do meetings with our remote partners, how we think about where the center of gravity should be and who should be on video conferencing and whether they should be allowed to kind of video conference in conference rooms, which are really hard to see them. We're only on their laptops, which are easier and what technology doesn't mean that you want in the conference rooms on both sides of the table, and how do you actually have it so that people who are remote could see which side of the table. I mean, all this stuff is yet to be invented. It will be very primitive for the next couple few years, even just interrupting one another in video conferencing people. When you do it, the sound counsel cancels each other out. So people don't really cut each other off and rip on one another. Same way, like all that, all that technology is going to get involved over time. It's a tremendous >>I could just see people fighting for the mute button. You know, that's power on these meetings. You know, Chuck on our team. All kidding aside, he was excited. We talked about Enron Kelly on your team, who runs product marketing on for your app side as well as computer networking storage. We're gonna do a green room app for the Q because you know, we're doing so many remote videos. We just did 112 here for reinvent one of things that people like is this idea of kind of being ready and kind of prepped. So again, this is a use case. We never would have thought off if there wasn't a pandemic. So and I think these are the kinds of innovation, thinking that seems small but works well when you start thinking about how easy it could be to say to integrate a chime through this sdk So this is the kind of things, that kind thing. So so with that, I want to get into your leadership principles because, you know, if you're a startup or a big company trying to reinvent, you're looking at the eight leadership principles you laid out, which were, um don't be afraid to reinvent. Acknowledge you can't fight gravity. Talent is hungry to reinvent solving real customer problems. Speed don't complex. If I use the platform with the broader set of tools, which is more a plug for you guys on cloud pull everything together with top down goals. Okay, great. How >>do you >>take those leadership principles and apply them broadly to companies and start ups? Because I think start ups in the garage are also gonna be there going. I'm going to jump on this wave. I'm inspired by the sea change. I'm gonna build something new or an enterprise. I'm gonna I'm gonna innovate. How do you How do you see these eight principles translating? >>Well, I think they're applicable to every company of every size and every industry and organization. Frankly, also, public sector organizations. I think in many ways startups have an advantage. And, you know, these were really keys to how to build a reinvention culture. And startups have an advantage because just by their very nature, they are inventive. You know, you can't you can't start a company that's a direct copy of somebody else that is an inventive where you have no chance. So startups already have, you know, a group of people that feel insurgent, and they wanted their passionate about certain customer experience. They want to invent it, and they know that they they only have so much time. Thio build something before money runs out and you know they have a number of those built in advantages. But I think larger companies are often where you see struggles and building a reinvention and invention culture and I've probably had in the last three weeks is part of reinvent probably about 40 different customer meetings with, you know, probably 75 different companies were accomplished in those or so and and I think that I met with a lot of leaders of companies where I think these reinvention principles really resonated, and I think they're they're battling with them and, you know, I think that it starts with the leaders if you, you know, when you have big companies that have been doing things a certain way for a long period of time, there's a fair bit of inertia that sets in and a lot of times not ill intended. It's just a big group of people in the middle who've been doing things a certain way for a long time and aren't that keen to change sometimes because it means ripping up something that they that they built and they remember how hard they worked on it. And sometimes it's because they don't know what it means for themselves. And you know, it takes the leadership team deciding that we are going to change. And usually that means they have to be able to have access to what's really happening in their business, what's really happening in their products in the market. But what customers really think of it and what they need to change and then having the courage and the energy, frankly, to pick the company up and push him to change because you're gonna have to fight a lot of inertia. So it always starts with the leaders. And in addition to having access that truth and deciding to make the change, you've gotta also set aggressive top down goal. The force of the organization moved faster than otherwise would and that also, sometimes leaders decide they're gonna want to change and they say they're going to change and they don't really set the goal. And they were kind of lessons and kind of doesn't listen. You know, we have a term the principal we have inside Amazon when we talk about the difference between good intentions and mechanisms and good intentions is saying we need to change and we need to invent, reinvent who we are and everyone has the right intentions. But nothing happens. Ah, mechanism, as opposed to good intention, is saying like Capital One did. We're going to reinvent our consumer digital banking platform in the next 18 months, and we're gonna meet every couple of weeks to see where we are into problem solved, like that's a mechanism. It's much harder to escape getting that done. Then somebody just saying we're going to reinvent, not checking on it, you know? And so, you know, I think that starts with the leaders. And then I think that you gotta have the right talent. You gotta have people who are excited about inventing, as opposed to really, Justin, what they built over a number of years, and yet at the same time, you're gonna make sure you don't hire people who were just building things that they're interested in. They went where they think the tech is cool as opposed to what customers want. And then I think you've got to Really You gotta build speed into your culture. And I think in some ways this is the very biggest challenge for a lot of enterprises. And I just I speak to so many leaders who kind of resigned themselves to moving slowly because they say you don't understand my like, companies big and the culture just move slow with regulator. There are a lot of reasons people will give you on why they have to move slow. But, you know, moving with speed is a choice. It's not something that your preordained with or not it is absolutely a leadership choice. And it can't happen overnight. You can't flip a switch and make it happen, but you can build a bunch of things into your culture first, starting with people. Understand that you are gonna move fast and then building an opportunity for people. Experiment quickly and reward people who experiment and to figure out the difference between one way doors and two way doors and things that are too way doors, letting people move quick and try things. You have to build that muscle or when it really comes, time to reinvent you won't have. >>That's a great point in the muscle on that's that's critical. You know, one of things I want to bring up. You brought on your keynote and you talk to me privately about it is you gave attribute in a way to Clay Christensen, who you called out on your keynote. Who was a professor at Harvard. Um, and he was you impressed by him and and you quoted him and he was He was your professor there, Um, your competitive person and you know, companies have strategy departments, and competitive strategy is not necessarily departments of mindset, and you were kind of brought this out in a zone undertone in your talk, we're saying you've got to be competitive in the sense of you got to survive and you've got to thrive. And you're kind of talking about rebuilding and building and, you know, Clay Christians. Innovative dilemma. Famous book is a mother, mother teachings around metrics and strategy and prescriptions. If he were alive today and he was with us, what would he be talking about? Because, you know, you have kind of stuck in the middle. Strategy was not Clay Christensen thing, but, you know, companies have to decide who they are. Their first principles face the truth. Some of the things you mentioned, what would we be talking with him about if we were talking about the innovator's dilemma with respect to, say, cloud and and some of the key decisions that have to be made right now? >>Well, then, Clay Christensen on it. Sounds like you read some of these books on. Guy had the fortunate, um, you know, being able to sit in classes that he taught. And also I got a chance. Thio, meet with him a couple of times after I graduated. Um, school, you know, kind of as more of a professional sorts. You can call me that. And, uh, he he was so thoughtful. He wasn't just thoughtful about innovation. He was thoughtful about how to get product market fit. And he was thoughtful about what your priorities in life were and how to build families. And, I mean, he really was one of the most thoughtful, innovative, um, you know, forward thinking, uh, strategist, I had the opportunity Thio encounter and that I've read, and so I'm very appreciative of having the opportunity Thio learn from him. And a lot of I mean, I think that he would probably be continuing to talk about a lot of the principles which I happen to think are evergreen that he he taught and there's it relates to the cloud. I think that one of the things that quite talked all the time about in all kinds of industries is that disruption always happens at the low end. It always happens with products that seem like they're not sophisticated enough. Don't do enough. And people always pooh pooh them because they say they won't do these things. And we learned this. I mean, I watched in the beginning of it of us. When we lost just three, we had so many people try and compare it Thio things like e m. C. And of course, it was very different than EMC. Um, but it was much simpler, but And it and it did a certain set of activities incredibly well at 1 1/100 of the price that's disrupted, you know, like 1 1/100 of the price. You find that builders, um, find a lot of utility for products like that. And so, you know, I think that it always starts with simple needs and products that aren't fully developed. That overtime continue to move their way up. Thio addressing Maura, Maura the market. And that's what we did with is what we've done with all our services. That's three and easy to and party ass and roar and things like that. And I think that there are lots of lessons is still apply. I think if you look at, um, containers and how that's changing what compute looks like, I think if you look at event driven, serverless compute in Lambda. Lambda is a great example of of really ah, derivative plays teaching, which is we knew when we were building Lambda that as people became excited about that programming model it would cannibalize easy to in our core compute service. And there are a lot of companies that won't do that. And for us we were trying to build a business that outlasts all of us. And that's you know, it's successful over a long period of time, and the the best way I know to do that is to listen to what customers We're trying to solve an event on their behalf, even if it means in the short term you may cannibalize yourself. And so that's what we always think about is, you know, wherever we see an opportunity to provide a better customer experience, even if it means in the short term, make cannibalism revenue leg lambda with complete with easy to our over our surveillance with provisions or are we're going to do it because we're gonna take the long view, and we believe that we serve customers well over a long period of time. We have a chance to do >>that. It's a cannibalize yourself and have someone else do it to you, right? That's that's the philosophy. Alright, fine. I know you've got tight for time. We got a you got a hard stop, But let's talk about the vaccine because you know, you brought up in the keynote carrier was a featured thing. And look at the news headlines. Now you got the shots being administered. You're starting to see, um, hashtag going around. I got my shot. So, you know, there's a There's a really Momenta. Mit's an uplifting vibe here. Amazon's involved in this and you talked about it. Can you share the innovation? There can just give us an update and what's come out of that and this supply chain factor. The cold chain. You guys were pretty instrumental in that share your your thoughts. >>We've been really excited and privileged partner with companies who are really trying to change what's possible for all of us. And I think you know it started with some of the companies producing vaccines. If you look at what we do with Moderna, where they built their digital manufacturing sweet on top of us in supply chain, where they used us for computing, storage and data warehousing and machine learning, and and on top of AWS they built, they're Cove in 19 vaccine candidate in 42 days when it normally takes 20 months. I mean, that is a total game changer. It's a game changer for all of us and getting the vaccine faster. But also, you just think about what that means for healthcare moving forward, it zits very exciting. And, yeah, I love what carriers doing. Kariya is building this product on top of AWS called links, which is giving them end and visibility over the transportation and in temperature of of the culture and everything they're delivering. And so it, uh, it changes what happens not only for food, ways and spoilage, but if you think about how much of the vaccine they're gonna actually transport to people and where several these vaccines need the right temperature control, it's it's a big deal. And what you know, I think there are a great example to what carrier is where. You know, if you think about the theme of this ring and then I talked about in my keynote, if you want to survive as an organization over a long period of time, you're gonna have to reinvent yourself. You're gonna have to probably do it. Multiple times over and the key to reinventing his first building, the right reinvention culture. And we talk about some of those principles earlier, but you also have to be aware of the technology that's available that allows you to do that. If you look at Carrier, they have built a very, very strong reinvention culture. And then, if you look at how they're leveraging, compute and storage and I o. T at the edge and machine learning, they know what's available, and they're using that technology to reinvent what's what's possible, and we're gonna all benefit because of >>it. All right. Well, Andy, you guys were reinventing the virtual space. Three weeks, it went off. Well, congratulations. Great to go along for the ride with the cube virtual. And again. Thank you for, um, keeping the show alive over there. Reinvent. Um, thanks for your team to for including the Cube. We really appreciate the Cube virtual being involved. Thank you. >>It's my pleasure. And thanks for having me, John and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right? Take care. Have a hockey game in real life. When? When we get back, Andy Jesse, the CEO of a W s here to really wrap up. Reinvent here for Cuba, Virtual as well as the show. Today is the last day of the program. It will be online for the rest of the year and then into next month there's another wave coming, of course. Check out all the coverage. Come, come back, It's It's It's online. It's all free Cube Cube stuff is there on the Cube Channel. Silicon angle dot com For all the top stories, cube dot net tons of content on Twitter. Hashtag reinvent. You'll see all the commentary. Thanks for watching the Cube Virtual. I'm John Feehery.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent executive summit 2020, sponsored by Accenture and AWS. >>Okay. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of 80 us. Re-invent 2020 virtual ecentric executive summit. The two great guests here to break down the analysis of the relationship with cloud and essential. Brian bowhead director ahead of Accenture. 80 was a business group at Amazon web services. And Andy T a B G the M is essentially Amazon business group lead managing director at Accenture. Uh, I'm sure you're super busy and dealing with all the action, Brian. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. So thank you. You guys essentially has been in the spotlight this week and all through the conference around this whole digital transformation, essentially as business group is celebrating its 50th anniversary. What's new, obviously the emphasis of next gen post COVID generation, highly accelerated digital transformation, a lot happening. You got your five-year anniversary, what's new. >>Yeah, it, you know, so if you look back it's exciting. Um, you know, so it was five years ago. Uh, it was actually October where we, where we launched the Accenture AWS business group. And if we think back five years, I think we're still at the point where a lot of customers were making that transition from, you know, should I move to cloud to how do I move to cloud? Right? And so that was one of the reasons why we launched the business group. And since, since then, certainly we've seen that transition, right? Our conversations today are very much around how do I move to cloud, help me move, help me figure out the business case and then pull together all the different pieces so I can move more quickly, uh, you know, with less risk and really achieve my business outcomes. And I would say, you know, one of the things too, that's, that's really changed over the five years. >>And what we're seeing now is when we started, right, we were focused on migration data and IOT as the big three pillars that we launched with. And those are still incredibly important to us, but just the breadth of capability and frankly, the, the, the breadth of need that we're seeing from customers. And obviously as AWS has matured over the years and launched our new capabilities, we're Eva with Accenture. Um, and in the business group, we've broadened our capabilities and deepened our capabilities over the, over the last five years as well. For instance, this year with, with COVID, especially, it's really forced our customers to think differently about their own customers or their citizens, and how do they serve as those citizens. So we've seen a huge acceleration around customer engagement, right? And we powered that with Accenture customer engagement platform powered by ADA, Amazon connect. And so that's been a really big trend this year. And then, you know, that broadens our capability from just a technical discussion to one where we're now really reaching out and, and, um, and helping transform and modernize that customer and citizen experience as well, which has been exciting to say, Andy want to get your thoughts here. We've >>Been reporting and covering essential for years. It's not like it's new to you guys. I mean, five years is a great anniversary. You know, check is good relationship, but you guys have been doing the work you've been on the trend line. And then this hits and Andy said on his keynote, and I thought he said it beautifully. And he even said it to me, my one-on-one interview with them was it's on full display right now, the whole digital transformation, everything about it is on full display and you're either were prepared for it or you kind of word, and you can see who's there. You guys have been prepared. This is not new. So give us the update from your perspective, how you're taking advantage of this, of this massive shift, highly accelerated digital transformation. >>Well, I think, I think you can be prepared, but you've also got to be prepared to always sort of, I think what we're seeing in, in, um, in, in, in, in recent times and particularly in two 20, what, what is it I think today there are, um, 4% of the enterprise workloads sits at the cloud. Um, you know, that leaves 96% out there on prem. Um, and I think over the next four to five years, um, we're going to see that sort of, uh, acceleration to the, to the cloud pick up, um, this year as Andy touched on, I think, uh, uh, on Tuesday in his, I think the pandemic is a forcing function, uh, for companies to, to, to really pause and think about everything from, from, you know, how they, um, manage that technology, their infrastructure, to, to clarity to where that data sets to what insights and intelligence that getting from that data. >>And then eventually even to, to the talent, the talent they have in the organization and how they can be competitive, um, that culture, that culture of innovation, of invention and reinvention. And so I think, I think, you know, when you, when you think of companies out there faced with these challenges, it forces us, it forces AWS's forces, AEG to come together and think through how can we help create value for them? How can we help help them move from sort of just causing and rethinking to having real plans in action and that taking them, uh, into, into implementation. And so that's, that's what we're working on. Um, I think over the next five years, we're looking to just continue to come together and, and help these companies get to the cloud and get the value from the cloud. Cause it's, it's beyond just getting to the cloud attached to me and living in the cloud and getting the value from it. >>It's interesting. Andy was saying, don't just put your toe in the water. You've got to go beyond the toe in the water kind of approach. Um, I want to get to that large scale cause that's the big pickup this week that I kind of walked away with was it's large scale. Acceleration's not just toe in the water experimentation. Can you guys share, what's causing this large scale end to end enterprise transformation and what are some of the success criteria have you seen for the folks who have done that? Yeah. And I'll, I'll start in the end. >>You can buy a lawn. So you, it's interesting if I look >>Back a year ago at reinvent and when I did the cube interview, then we were talking about how ABG we're >>Starting to see that shift of customers. You know, we've been working with customers for years on a single of what I call a single-threaded programs, right? We can do a migration, we can do SAP, we can do a data program. And then even last year we were really starting to see customers ask. The question is like, what kind of synergies and what kind of economies of scale do I get when I start bringing these different threads together and also realizing that it's, you know, to innovate for the business and build new applications, new capabilities, well, that, that is going to inform what data you need to, to hydrate those applications, right? Which then informs your data strategy while a lot of that data is then also embedded in your underlying applications that sit on premises. So you should be thinking through how do you get those applications into the cloud? >>So you need to draw that line through all of those layers. And that was already starting last year. And so last year we launched the joint transformation program with AEG. And then, so we were ready when this year happened and then it was just an acceleration. So things have been happening faster than we anticipated, but we knew this was going to be happening. And luckily we've been in a really good position to help some of our customers really think through all those different layers of kind of the pyramid as we've been calling it along with the talent and change pieces, which are also so important as you make this transformation to cloud >>Andy, what's the success factors. Andy Jassy came on stage during the partner day, a surprise fireside chat with Doug Hume and talking about this is really an opportunity for partners to, to change the business landscape with enablement from Amazon. You guys are in a pole position to do that in the marketplace. What's the success factors that you see, >>Um, really from three, three fronts, I'd say, um, w you know, one is the, the people. Um, and, and I, I, again, I think Andy touched on sort of a, uh, success factors, uh, early in the week. And for me, it's these three areas that it sort of boils down to, to these three areas. Um, one is the, the, the, the people, uh, from the leaders that it's really important to set those big, bold visions point the way. And then, and then, you know, set top down goals. How are we going to measure you almost do get what you measure, um, to be, you know, beyond the leaders, to, to the right people in the right position across the company. We're finding a key success factor for these end to end transformations is not just the leaders, but you haven't poached across the company, working in a, in a collaborative, shared, shared success model, um, and people who are not afraid to, to invent and fail. >>And so that takes me to perhaps the second point, which is the culture. Um, it's important, uh, with finding food for the right conditions to be set in the company, not enable people to move at pace, move at speed, be able to fail fast, um, keep things very, very simple, and just keep iterating and that sort of culture of iteration, um, and improvement versus seeking perfection is, is super important for, for success. And then the third part of maybe touch on is, is partners. Um, I think, you know, as we move forward over the next five years, we're going to see an increasing number of players in the ecosystem in the enterprises state. Um, you're going to see more and more SAS providers. And so it's important for companies and our joint clients out there to pick partners like, um, like AWS or, or Accenture or others, but to pick partners who have all worked together and built solutions together. And that allows them to get speed to value quicker. It allows them to bring in pre-assembled solutions, um, and really just drive that transformation in a quicker, it sorts of manner. >>Yeah, that's a great point worth calling out, having that partnership model that's additive and has synergy in the cloud, because one of the things that came out of this this week, this year is reinvented, is there's new things going on in the public cloud, even though hybrid is an operating model, outpost and super relevant. There, there are benefits for being in the cloud and you've got partners, APIs, for instance, and have microservices working together. This is all new, but I got, I got to ask that on that thread, Andy, where did you see your customers going? Because I think, you know, as you work backwards from the customers, you guys do, what's their needs, how do you see them? You know, where's the puck going? Where can they skate to where the puck's going? Because you can almost look forward and say, okay, I've got to build modern apps. I got to do the digital transformation. Everything is a service. I get that, but what do they, what, what solutions are you building for them right now to get there? >>Yeah. And, and of course, with, with, you know, industries blurring and multiple companies, it's always hard to boil down to the exact situations, but you can probably look at it from a sort of a thematic lens. And what we're seeing is as the cloud transformation journey picks up from us perspective, we've seen a material shift in the solutions and problems that we're trying to address with clients that they are asking for us, uh, to, to help, uh, address is no longer just the back office where you're sort of looking at cost and efficiency and, um, uh, driving gains from that perspective. It's beyond that, it's now materially the top line. It's, how'd you get the driving to the, you know, speed to insights, how'd you get them decomposing, uh, their application set in order to derive those insights. Um, how'd you get them, um, to, to, um, uh, sort of adopt leading edge industry solutions that give them that jump start, uh, and that accelerant to winning the customers, winning the eyeballs. >>Um, and then, and then how'd you help drive the customer experience. We're seeing a lot of push from clients, um, or ask for help on how do I optimize my customer experience in order to retain my eyeballs. And then how do I make sure I've got a soft self-learning ecosystem at play, um, where I, you know, it's not just a practical experience, but I can sort of keep learning and iterating, um, how treat my, eat, my customers, um, and a lot of that, um, that's still self-learning that comes from, you know, putting in, uh, intelligence into your, into your systems, getting an AI and ML, uh, in that. And so as a result of that, where it was seeing a lot of push and a lot of what we're doing, uh, is pouring investments into those areas. And then finally, maybe beyond the bottom line and the top line is how do you harden that and protect that with, um, security and resilience? Uh, so I'll probably say those are the three areas. John >>Brian on the business model side, obviously the enablement is what Amazon has. Um, we see things like SAS factory coming on board and the partner network I've see a, is a big, huge partner of you guys. Um, the business models there. You've got I, as, as doing great with chips, you have this data modeling this data opportunity to enable these modern apps. We heard about the partner strategy from Andy. I'm talking about yesterday now about how can partners within even a center. What's the business model side on your side that you're enabling this. Can you just share your thoughts on that? >>Yeah. And so it's, it's interesting. And again, I'm kind of build it in a build a little bit on some of the things that Andy really talked about there, right? And that we, if you think of that from the partnership, we are absolutely helping our customers with kind of that it modernization piece and we're investing a lot and that there's hard work that needs to get done there. And we're investing a lot as a partnership around the tools, the assets and the methodology. So in AWS and Accenture show up together as AEG, we are executing off a single blueprint with a single set of assets so we can move fast. So we're going to continue to do that with all the hybrid announcements from this past week, those get baked into that, that migration modernization theme, but the other really important piece here as we go up the stack, Andy mentioned it, right? >>The data piece, like so much of what we're talking about here is around data and insights. Right? I did a cube interview last week with, uh, Carl hick. Um, who's the CIO from Takeda. And if you hear Christophe Weber from Takeda talk, he talks about Takeda being a data company, data and insights company. So how do we, as a partnership, again, build the capabilities and the platforms like with Accenture's applied insights platform so that we can bootstrap and really accelerate our client's journey. And then finally, on the innovation on the business front, and Andy was touching on some of these, we are investing in industry solutions and accelerators, right? Because we know that at the end of the day, a lot of these are very similar. We're talking about ingesting data, using machine learning to provide insights and then taking action. So for instance, the cognitive insurance platform that we're working together on with Accenture, if they get about property and casualty claims and think about how do we enable touchless claims using machine learning and computer vision that can assess based on an image damage, and then be able to triage that and process it accordingly, right? >>Using all the latest machine learning capabilities from AWS >>With that deep, um, AI machine learning data science capability from Accenture, who knows all those algorithms that need to get built and build that library by doing that, we can really help these insurance companies accelerate their transformation around how they think about claims and how they can speed those claims on behalf of their policy holder. So that's, what's an example of a, kind of like a bottom to top view of what we're doing in the partnership to address these new needs. >>That's awesome. Andy, I want to get back to your point about culture. You mentioned it twice now. Um, challenge is a big part of the game here. Andy Jassy referenced Lambda. Next generation developers were using Lambda. He talked about CIO stories around, they didn't move fast enough. They lost three years. A new person came in and made it go faster. This is a new, this is a time for a certain kind of, um, uh, professional and individual, um, to, to be part of, um, this next generation. What's the talent strategy you guys have to attract and attain the best and retain the best people. How do you do it? >>Um, you know, it's, it's, um, it's an interesting one. It's, it's, it's oftentimes a, it's, it's a significant point and often overlooked. Um, you know, people, people really matter and getting the right people, um, in not just in AWS or, but then on our customers is super important. We often find that much of our discussions with, with our clients is centered around that. And it's really a key ingredient. As you touched on, you need people who are willing to embrace change, but also people who are willing to create new, um, to invent new, to reinvent, um, and to keep it very simple. Um, w we're we're we're seeing increasingly that you need people who have a sort of deep learning and a deep, uh, or deep desire to keep learning and to be very curious as, as they go along. Most of all, though, I find that, um, having people who are not willing or not afraid to fail is critical, absolutely critical. Um, and I think that that's, that's, uh, a necessary ingredient that we're seeing, um, our clients needing more off, um, because if you can't start and, and, and you can't iterate, um, you know, for fear of failure, you're in trouble. And I think Andy touched on that you, you know, where that CIO, that you referred to last three years, um, and so you really do need people who are willing to start not afraid to start, um, and, uh, and not afraid to lead. Yeah. >>It takes a gut-check there. I just said, you guys have a great team over there. Everyone at the center I've interviewed strong, talented, and not afraid to lean in and, and into the trends. Um, I got to ask on that front cloud first was something that was a big strategic focus for Accenture. How does that fit into your business group? That's, uh, Amazon focus, obviously their cloud, and now hybrid everywhere, as I say, um, how does that all work it out? >>We're super excited about our cloud first initiative, and I think it fits it, um, really, uh, perfectly it's it's, it's what we needed. It's, it's, it's a, it's another accelerant. Um, if you think of first, what we're doing is we're, we're putting together, um, a capability set that will help enable him to and translations as Brian touched on your help companies move, you know, from just, you know, migrating to, to, to modernizing, to driving insights, to bringing in change, um, and, and, and helping on that, on that talent. So that's sort of component number one is how does Accenture bring the best, uh, end to end transformation capabilities to our clients? Number two is perhaps, you know, how do we, um, uh, bring together pre-assembled as Brian touched on preassembled industry offerings to help as an accelerant, uh, for our, for our customers three, as, as we touched on earlier, is, is that sort of partnership with the ecosystem. >>We're going to see an increasing number of SAS providers in an estate in the enterprises States out there. And so, you know, parts of our cloud first and our AEG strategy is to increase our touchpoints and our integrations and our solutions and our offerings where the ecosystem partners out there, the ISV partners out there, and the SAS providers out there. And then number four is really about, you know, how do we, um, extend the definition of the cloud? I think oftentimes people thought of the cloud just as sort of on-prem and prem. Um, but, but as Andy touched on earlier this week, you know, you've, you've got this, the concept of hybrid cloud and that in itself, um, uh, is, is, is, uh, you know, being redefined as well, you know, where you've got the intelligent edge and you've got various forms of the edge. Um, so that's the fourth part of, of our, of our cloud first strategy. And, and, and for us was super excited because all of that is highly relevant for ABG, as we look to build those capabilities as industry solutions and others, and as we look to enable our customers, but also how we, you know, as we, as we look to extend how we go to market, uh, I joined tally PS, uh, in, uh, in our respective skews and products. >>Well, what's clear now is that people now realize that if you contain that complexity, the upside is massive. And that's great opportunity for you guys. We got to get to the final question for you guys to weigh in on, as we wrap up next five years, Brian, Andy weigh in, how do you see that playing out? What do you see this exciting, um, for the partnership and the cloud first cloud, everywhere cloud opportunities share some perspective. >>Yeah, I, I, they, you know, just kinda building on that cloud first, right? What cloud first. And we were super excited when cloud first was announced and you know, what it signals to the market and what we're seeing in our customers, which is cloud really permeates everything that we're doing now. Um, and, and so all aspects of the business will get infused with cloud in some ways, you know, it, it touches on all pieces. And I think what we're going to see is just a continued acceleration and getting much more efficient about pulling together the disparate, what had been disparate pieces of these transformations, and then using automation using machine learning to go faster. Right? And so, as we start thinking about the stack, right, well, we're going to get, I know we are, as a partnership is we're already investing there and getting better and more efficient every day as the migration pieces and the moving assets, the cloud are just going to continue to get more automated, more efficient, and those will become the economic engines that allow us to fund the differentiated, innovative app activities up the stack. >>So I'm excited to see us, you know, kind of invest to make those, those, um, those bits accelerated for customers so that we can free up capital and resources to invest where it's going to drive the most outcome for their end customers. Um, and I think that's going to be a big focus and that's going to have the industry, um, you know, focus. It's going to be making sure that we can consume the latest and greatest of AWS has capabilities and, you know, in the areas of machine learning and analytics, but then Andy's also touched on it bringing in ecosystem partners, right? I mean, one of the most exciting wins we had this year, and this year of COVID is looking at the universe, uh, looking at Massachusetts, the COVID track and trace solution that we put in place is a partnership between Accenture, AWS, and Salesforce, right? So again, bringing together three really leading partners who can deliver value for our customers. I think we're going to see a lot more of that. As customers look to partnerships like this, to help them figure out how to bring together the best of the ecosystem to drive solutions. So I think we're going to see more of that as well. >>All right, Andy final word, your take >>Of innovation is, is picking up. Um, the split things are just going faster and faster. I'm just super excited and looking forward to the next five years as, as you know, the technology invention, um, comes out and continues to sort of set new standards from AWS. Um, and as we, as Accenture bringing our industry capabilities, we marry the two, we, we go and help our customers super exciting times. >>Well, congratulations on the partnership. I want to say thank you to you guys, because I've reported a few times some stories around real successes around this COVID pandemic that you guys worked together on with Amazon that really changed people's lives. Uh, so congratulations on that too as well. I want to call that out. Thanks for coming >>Up. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. >>Okay. This is the cubes coverage, Accenture AWS partnership, part of the center's executive summit at Avis reinvent 2020. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.