>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of an AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to the AI ops virtual forum. Finally, some Artan extended to be talking with rich lane now, senior analyst, serving infrastructure and operations professionals at Forrester. Rich. It's great to have you today. >>Thank you for having me. I think it's going to be a really fun conversation to have today. >>It is. We're going to be setting the stage for, with Richard, for the it operations challenges and the need for AI ops. That's kind of our objective here in the next 15 minutes. So rich talk to us about some of the problems that enterprise it operations are facing now in this year, that is 2020 that are going to be continuing into the next year. >>Yeah, I mean, I think we've been on this path for a while, but certainly the last eight months has, uh, has accelerated, uh, this problem and, and brought a lot of things to light that, that people were, you know, they were going through the day to day firefighting as their goal way of life. Uh, it's just not sustainable anymore. You a highly distributed environment or in the need for digital services. And, you know, one of them has been building for a while really is in the digital age, you know, we're providing so many, uh, uh, the, the interactions with customers online. Um, we've, we've added these layers of complexity, um, to applications, to infrastructure, you know, or we're in the, in the cloud or a hybrid or multi-cloud, or do you know you name it using cloud native technologies? We're using legacy stuff. We still have mainframe out there. >>Uh, you know, the, just the, the vast amount of things we have to keep track of now and process and look at the data and signals from, it's just, it's a really untenable for, for humans to do that in silos now, uh, in, in, you know, when you add to that, you know, when companies are so heavily invested in gone on the digital transformation path, and it's accelerated so much in the last, uh, year or so that, you know, we're getting so much of our business in revenue derived from these services that they become core to the business. They're not afterthoughts anymore. It's not just about having a website presence. It's, it's about deriving core business value from the services you're providing to your, through your customers. And a lot of cases, customers you're never going to meet or see at that. So it's even more important to be vigilant. >>And on top of the quality of that service that you're giving them. And then when you think about just the staffing issues we have, there's just not enough bodies to go around it in operations anymore. Um, you know, we're not going to be able to hire, you know, like we did 10 years ago, even. Uh, so that's where we need the systems to be able to bring those operational efficiencies to bear. When we say operational efficiencies, we don't mean, you know, uh, lessening head count because we can't do that. That'd be foolish. What we mean is getting the head count. We have back to burping on and higher level things, you know, working on, uh, technology refreshes and project work that that brings better digital services to customers and get them out of doing these sort of, uh, low, uh, complexity, high volume tasks that they're spending at least 20%, if not more on our third day, each day. So I think that the more we can bring intelligence to bear and automation to take those things out of their hands, the better off we are going forward. >>And I'm sure those workers are wanting to be able to have the time to deliver more value, more strategic value to the organization, to their role. And as you're saying, you know, was the demand for digital services is spiking. It's not going to go down and as consumers, if w if we have another option and we're not satisfied, we're going to go somewhere else. So, so it's really about not just surviving this time right now, it's about how do I become a business that's going to thrive going forward and exceeding expectations that are now just growing and growing. So let's talk about AI ops as a facilitator of collaboration, across business folks, it folks developers, operations, how can it facilitate collaboration, which is even more important these days? >>Yeah. So one of the great things about it is now, you know, years ago, have I gone years, as they say, uh, we would buy a tool to fit each situation. And, you know, someone that worked in network and others who will somebody worked in infrastructure from a, you know, Linux standpoint, have their tool, somebody who's from storage would have their tool. And what we found was we would have an incident, a very high impact incident occur. Everybody would get on the phone, 24 people all be looking at their siloed tool, they're siloed pieces of data. And then we'd still have to try to like link point a to B to C together, you know, just to institutional knowledge. And, uh, there was just ended up being a lot of gaps there because we couldn't understand that a certain thing happening over here was related to an advantage over here. >>Um, now when we bring all that data into one umbrella, one data Lake, whatever we want to call it, a lot of smart analytics to that data, uh, and normalize that data in a way we can contextualize it from, you know, point a to point B all the way through the application infrastructure stack. Now, the conversation changes now, the conversation changes to here is the problem, how are we going to fix it? And we're getting there immediately versus three, four or five hours of, uh, you know, hunting and pecking and looking at things and trying to try to extrapolate what we're seeing across disparate systems. Um, and that's really valuable. And in what that does is now we can change the conversation for measuring things. And in server up time and data center, performance metrics as to how are we performing as a business? How are we overall in, in real time, how are businesses being impacted by service disruption? >>We know how much money losing per minute hour, or what have you, uh, and what that translate lights into brand damage and things along those lines, that people are very interested in that. And, you know, what is the effect of making decisions either brief from a product change side? You know, if we're, we're, we're always changing the mobile apps and we're always changing the website, but do we understand what value that brings us or what negative impact that has? We can measure that now and also sales, marketing, um, they run a campaign here's your, you know, coupon for 12% off today only, uh, what does that drive to us with user engagement? We can measure that now in real time, we don't have to wait for those answers anymore. And I think, you know, having all those data and understanding the cause and effect of things increases, it enhances these feedback loops of we're making decisions as a business, as a whole to make, bring better value to our customers. >>You know, how does that tie into ops and dev initiatives? How does everything that we do if I make a change to the underlying architectures that help move the needle forward, does that hinder things, uh, all these things factor into it. In fact, there into the customer experience, which is what we're trying to do at the end of the day, w w whether operations people like it or not, we are all in the customer experience business now. And we have to realize that and work closer than ever with our business and dev partners to make sure we're delivering the highest level of customer experience we can. >>Uh, customer experience is absolutely critical for a number of reasons. I always kind of think it's inextricably linked with employee experience, but let's talk about long-term value because as organizations and every industry has pivoted multiple times this year and will probably continue to do so for the foreseeable future, for them to be able to get immediate value that let's, let's not just stop the bleeding, but let's allow them to get a competitive advantage and be really become resilient. What are some of the, uh, applications that AI ops can deliver with respect to long-term value for an organization? >>Yeah, and I think that it's, you know, you touched upon this a very important point that there is a set of short term goals you want to achieve, but they're really going to be looking towards 12, 18 months down the road. What is it going to have done for you? And I think this helps framing out for you what's most important because it'd be different for every enterprise. Um, and it also shows the ROI of doing this because there is some, you know, change is going to be involved with things you're gonna have to do. But when you look at the, the, the longer time horizon of what it brings to your business as a whole, uh it's to me, at least it all seems, it seems like a no brainer to not do it. Um, you know, thinking about the basic things, like, you know, faster remediation of, of, uh, client impacting incidents, or maybe, maybe even predictive of sort of detection of these incidents that will affect clients. >>So now you're getting, you know, at scale, you know, it's very hard to do when you have hundreds of thousands of optics of the management that relate to each other, but now you're having letting the machines and the intelligence layer find out where that problem is. You know, it's not the red thing, it's the yellow thing. Go look at that. Um, it's reducing the amount of finger pointing and what have you like resolved between teams now, everybody's looking at the same data, the same sort of, uh, symptoms and like, Oh yeah, okay. This is telling us, you know, here's the root cause you should investigate this huge, huge thing. Um, and, and it's something we never thought we'd get to where, uh, this, this is where we smart enough to tell us these things, but this, again, this is the power of having all the data under one umbrella >>And the smart analytics. >>Um, and I think really, you know, it's a boat. Uh, if you look at where infrastructure and operations people are today, and especially, you know, eight months, nine months, whatever it is into the pandemic, uh, a lot of them are getting really burnt out with doing the same repetitive tasks over and over again. Um, just trying to keep the lights on, you know, we need, we need to extract those things for those people, uh, just because it just makes no sense to do something over and over again, the same remediation step, just we should automate those things. So getting that sort of, uh, you know, drudgery off their hands, if you will, and, and get them into, into all their important things they should be doing, you know, they're really hard to solve problems. That's where the human shine, um, and that's where, you know, having a, you know, really high level engineers, that's what they should be doing, you know, and just being able to do things I >>Think in a much faster, >>In a more efficient manner, when you think about an incident occurring, right. In, in a level, one technician picks that up and he goes and triaged that maybe run some tests. He has a script, >>Uh, or she, uh, and, >>You know, uh, they open a ticket and they enrich the ticket. They call it some log files. They can look up for the servers on it. You're in an hour and a half into an incident before anyone's even looked at it. If we could automate all of that, >>Why wouldn't we, that makes it easier for everyone. Um, >>Yeah. And I really think that's where the future is, is, is, is bringing this intelligent automation to bear, to take, knock down all the little things that consume the really, the most amount of time. When you think about it, if you aggregate it over the course of a quarter or a year, a great deal of your time is spent just doing that minutiae again, why don't we automate that? And we should. So I really think that's, that's where you get to look long-term. I think also the sense of we're going to be able to measure everything in the sense of business KPIs versus just IT-centric KPIs. That's really where we going to get to in the digital age. And I think we waited too long to do that. I think our operations models were all voted. I think, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of the KPIs we look at today are completely outmoded. They don't really change if you think about it. When we look at the monthly reports over the course of a year, uh, so let's do something different. And now having all this data and the smart analytics, we can do something different. Absolutely. I'm glad >>That you brought up kind of looking at the impact that AI ops can make on, on minutiae and burnout. That's a really huge problem that so many of us are facing in any industry. And we know that there's some amount of this that's going to continue for a while longer. So let's get our let's leverage intelligent automation to your point, because we can to be able to allow our people to not just be more efficient, but to be making a bigger impact. And there's that mental component there that I think is absolutely critical. I do want to ask you what are some of these? So for those folks going, all right, we've got to do this. It makes sense. We see some short-term things that we need. We need short-term value. We need long-term value as you've just walked us through. What are some of the obstacles that you'd say, Hey, be on the lookout for this to wipe it out of the way. >>Yeah. I, I think there's, you know, when you think about the obstacles, I think people don't think about what are big changes for their organization, right? You know, they're, they're going to change process. They're going to change the way teams interact. They're they're going to change a lot of things, but they're all for the better. So what we're traditionally really bad in infrastructure and operations is communication, marketing, a new initiative, right? We don't go out and get our peers agreement to it where the product owner is, you know, and say, okay, this is what it gets you. This is where it changes. People just hear I'm losing something, I'm losing control over something. You're going to get rid of the tools that I have, but I love I've spent years building out perfecting, um, and that's threatening to people and understandably so because people think if I start losing tools, I start losing head count. >>And then, whereas my department at that point, um, but that's not what this is all about. Uh, this, this isn't a replacement for people. This isn't a replacement for teams. This isn't augmentation. This is getting them back to doing the things they should be doing and less of the stuff they shouldn't be doing. And frankly, it's, it's about providing better services. So when in the end, it's counterintuitive to be against it because it's gonna make it operations look better. It's gonna make us show us that we are the thought leaders in delivering digital services that we can, um, constantly be perfecting the way we're doing it. And Oh, by the way, we can help the business be better. Also at the same time. Uh, I think some of the mistakes people really don't make, uh, really do make, uh, is not looking at their processes today, trying to figure out what they're gonna look like tomorrow when we bring in advanced automation and intelligence, uh, but also being prepared for what the future state is, you know, in talking to one company, they were like, yeah, we're so excited for this. >>Uh, we, we got rid of our old 15 year old laundering system and the same day we stepped a new system. Uh, one problem we had though, was we weren't ready for the amount of incidents that had generated on day one. And it wasn't because we did anything wrong or the system was wrong or what have you. It did the right thing actually, almost too. Well, what it did is it uncovered a lot of really small incidents through advanced correlations. We didn't know we had, so there were things lying out there that were always like, huh, that's weird. That system acts strange sometimes, but we can never pin it down. We found all of those things, which is good. It goes, but it kind of made us all kind of sit back and think, and then our readership are these guys doing their job. Right? >>And then we had to go through an evolution of, you know, just explaining we were 15 years behind from a visibility standpoint to our environment, but technologies that we deployed in applications had moved ahead and modernized. So this is like a cautionary tale of falling too far behind from a sort of a monitoring and intelligence and automation standpoint. Um, so I thought that was a really good story for something like, think about as Eagle would deploy these modern systems. But I think if he really, you know, the marketing to people, so they're not threatened, I think thinking about your process and then what's, what's your day one and then look like, and then what's your six and 12 months after that looks like, I think settling all that stuff upfront just sets you up for success. >>All right. Rich, take us home here. Let's summarize. How can clients build a business case for AI ops? What do you recommend? >>Yeah. You know, I actually get that question a lot. It's usually, uh, almost always the number one, uh, question in, in, um, you know, webinars like this and conversations that, that the audience puts in. So I wouldn't be surprised, but if that was true, uh, going forward from this one, um, yeah, people are like, you know, Hey, we're all in. We want to do this. We know this is the way forward, but the guy who writes the checks, the CIO, the VP of ops is like, you know, I I've signed lots of checks over the years for tools wise is different. Um, and when I guide people to do is to sit back and, and start doing some hard math, right. Uh, one of the things that resonates with the leadership is dollars and cents. It's not percentages. So saying, you know, it's, it brings us a 63% reduction and MTTR is not going to resonate. >>Uh, Oh, even though it's a really good number, you know, uh, I think what it is, you have to put it in terms of avoid, if we could avoid that 63%. Right. You know, um, what does that mean for our, our digital services as far as revenue, right. We know that every hour system down, I think, uh, you know, typically in the market, you see is about $500,000 an hour for enterprise. We'll add that up over the course of the year. What are you losing in revenue? Add to that brand damage loss of customers, you know, uh, Forrester puts out a really big, uh, casino, um, uh, customer experience index every year that measures that if you're delivering good Udall services, bad digital services, if you could raise that up, what does that return to you in revenue? And that's a key thing. And then you just look at the, the, uh, hours of lost productivity. >>I call it, I might call it something else, but I think it's a catchy name. Meaning if a core internal system is down say, and you know, you have a customer service desk of a thousand customer service people, and they can't do that look up or fix that problem for clients for an hour. How much money does that lose you? And you multiply it out. You know, average customer service desk person makes X amount an hour times this much time. This many times it happens. Then you start seeing the real, sort of a power of AI ops for this incident avoidance, or at least lowering the impact of these incidents. And people have put out in graphs and spreadsheets and all this, and then I'm doing some research around this actually to, to, to put out something that people can use to say, the project funds itself in six to 12 months, it's paid for itself. And then after that it's returning money to the business. Why would you not do that? And when you start framing the conversation, that way, the little light bulb turn on for the people that sign the checks. For sure. >>That's great advice for folks to be thinking about. I loved how you talked about the 63% reduction in something. I think that's great. What does it impact? How does it impact the revenue for the organization? If we're avoiding costs here, how do we drive up revenue? So having that laser focus on revenue is great advice for folks in any industry, looking to build a business case for AI ops. I think you set the stage for that rich beautifully, and you were right. This was a fun conversation. Thank you for your time. Thank you. And thanks for watching >>From around the globe with digital coverage. >>Welcome back to the Broadcom AI ops, virtual forum, Lisa Martin here talking with Eastman Nasir global product management at Verizon. We spent welcome back. >>Hi. Hello. Uh, what a pleasure. >>So 2020 the year of that needs no explanation, right? The year of massive challenges and wanting to get your take on the challenges that organizations are facing this year as the demand to deliver digital products and services has never been higher. >>Yeah. So I think this is something it's so close to all the far far, right? It's, uh, it's something that's impacted the whole world equally. And I think regardless of which industry you rent, you have been impacted by this in one form or the other, and the ICT industry, the information and communication technology industry, you know, Verizon being really massive player in that whole arena. It has just been sort of struck with this massive consummation we have talked about for a long time, we have talked about these remote surgery capabilities whereby you've got patients in Kenya who are being treated by an expert sitting in London or New York, and also this whole consciousness about, you know, our carbon footprint and being environmentally conscious. This pandemic has taught us all of that and brought us to the forefront of organization priorities, right? The demand. I think that's, that's a very natural consequence of everybody sitting at home. >>And the only thing that can keep things still going is this data communication, right? But I wouldn't just say that that is, what's kind of at the heart of all of this. Just imagine if we are to realize any of these targets of the world is what leadership is setting for themselves. Hey, we have to be carbon neutral by X year as a country, as a geography, et cetera, et cetera. You know, all of these things require you to have this remote working capabilities, this remote interaction, not just between humans, but machine to machine interactions. And this there's a unique value chain, which is now getting created that you've got people who are communicating with other people or communicating with other machines, but the communication is much more. I wouldn't even use the term real time because we've used real time for voice and video, et cetera. >>We're talking low latency, microsecond decision-making that can either cut somebody's, you know, um, our trees or that could actually go and remove the tumor, that kind of stuff. So that has become a reality. Everybody's asking for it, remote learning, being an extremely massive requirement where, you know, we've had to enable these, uh, these virtual classrooms ensuring the type of connectivity, ensuring the type of type of privacy, which is just so, so critical. You can't just have everybody in a go on the internet and access a data source. You have to be concerned about the integrity and security of that data as the foremost. So I think all of these things, yes, we have not been caught off guard. We were pretty forward-looking in our plans and our evolution, but yes, it's fast track the journey that we would probably believe we would have taken in three years. It has brought that down to two quarters where we've had to execute them. >>Right. Massive acceleration. All right. So you articulated the challenges really well. And a lot of the realities that many of our viewers are facing. Let's talk now about motivations, AI ops as a tool, as a catalyst for helping organizations overcome those challenges. >>So yeah. Now on that I said, you can imagine, you know, it requires microsecond decision-making which human being on this planet can do microsecond decision-making on complex network infrastructure, which is impacting end user applications, which have multitudes of effect. You know, in real life, I use the example of a remote surgeon. Just imagine that, you know, even because of you just use your signal on the quality of that communication for that microsecond, it could be the difference between killing somebody in saving somebody's life. And it's not predictable. We talk about autonomous vehicles. Uh, we talk about this transition to electric vehicles, smart motorways, et cetera, et cetera, in federal environment, how is all of that going to work? You have so many different components coming in. You don't just have a network and security anymore. You have software defined networking. That's coming, becoming a part of that. >>You have mobile edge computing that is rented for the technologies. 5g enables we're talking augmented reality. We're talking virtual reality. All of these things require that resources and why being carbon conscious. We told them we just want to build a billion data centers on this planet, right? We, we have to make sure that resources are given on demand and the best way of resources can be given on demand and could be most efficient is that the thing is being made at million microsecond and those resources are accordingly being distributed, right? If you're relying on people, sipping their coffees, having teas, talking to somebody else, you know, just being away on holiday. I don't think we're going to be able to handle that one that we have already stepped into. Verizon's 5g has already started businesses on that transformational journey where they're talking about end user experience personalization. >>You're going to have events where people are going to go, and it's going to be three-dimensional experiences that are purely customized for you. How, how does that all happen without this intelligence sitting there and a network with all of these multiple layers? So spectrum, it doesn't just need to be intuitive. Hey, this is my private IP traffic. This is public traffic. You know, it has to not be in two, or this is an application that I have to prioritize over another task to be intuitive to the criticality and the context of those transactions. Again, that's surgeons. So be it's much more important than postman setting and playing a video game. >>I'm glad that you think that that's excellent. Let's go into some specific use cases. What are some of the examples that you gave? Let's kind of dig deeper into some of the, what you think are the lowest hanging fruit for organizations kind of pan industry to go after. >>Excellent. Brian, and I think this, this like different ways to look at the lowest hanging fruit, like for somebody like revising who is a managed services provider, you know, very comprehensive medicines, but we obviously have food timing, much lower potentially for some of our customers who want to go on that journey. Right? So for them to just go and try and harness the power of the foods might be a bit higher hanging, but for somebody like us, the immediate ones would be to reduce the number of alarms that are being generated by these overlay services. You've got your basic network, then you've got your whole software defined networking on top of that, you have your hybrid clouds, you have your edge computing coming on top of that. You know? So all of that means if there's an outage on one device on the network, I want to make this very real for everybody, right? >>It's like device and network does not stop all of those multiple applications or monitoring tools from raising and raising thousands of alarm and everyone, one capacity. If people are attending to those thousands of alarms, it's like you having a police force and there's a burglary in one time and the alarm goes off and 50 bags. How, how are you kind of make the best use of your police force? You're going to go investigate 50 bags or do you want to investigate where the problem is? So it's as real as that, I think that's the first wins where people can save so much cost, which is coming from being wasted and resources running around, trying to figure stuff out immediately. I'm tied this with network and security network and security is something which has you did even the most, you know, I mean single screens in our engineering, well, we took it to have network experts, separate people, security experts, separate people to look for different things, but there are security events that can impact the performance of a network. >>And then just drop the case on the side of et cetera, which could be falsely attributed to the metric. And then if you've got multiple parties, which are then the chapter clear stakeholders, you can imagine the blame game that goes on finding fingers, taking names, not taking responsibility that don't has all this happened. This is the only way to bring it all together to say, okay, this is what takes priority. If there's an event that has happened, what is its correlation to the other downstream systems, devices, components, and these are applications. And then subsequently, you know, like isolating it to the right cost where you can most effectively resolve that problem. Thirdly, I would say on demand, virtualized resource, virtualized resources, the heart and soul, the spirit of status that you can have them on demand. So you can automate the allocation of these resources based on customer's consumption their peaks, their cramps, all of that comes in. >>You see, Hey, typically on a Wednesday, the traffic was up significantly for this particular application, you know, going to this particular data center, you could have this automated system, uh, which is just providing those resources, you know, on demand. And so it is to have a much better commercial engagement with customers and just a much better service assurance model. And then one more thing on top of that, which is very critical is that as I was saying, giving that intelligence to the networks to start having context of the criticality of a transaction, that doesn't make sense to them. You can't have that because for that, you need to have this, you know, monkey their data. You need to have multi-cam system, which are monitoring and controlling different aspects of your overall end user application value chain to be communicating with each other. And, you know, that's the only way to sort of achieve that goal. And that only happens with AI. It's not possible >>So it was when you clearly articulated some obvious, low hanging fruit and use cases that organizations can go after. Let's talk now about some of the considerations, you talked about the importance of a network and AI ops, the approach I assume, needs to be modular support needs to be heterogeneous. Talk to us about some of those key considerations that you would recommend. >>Absolutely. So again, basically starting with the network, because if there's, if the metrics sitting at the middle of all of this is not working, then things can communicate with each other, right? And the cloud doesn't work, nothing metal. That's the hardest part of this, but that's the frequency. When you talk about machine to machine communication or IOT, it's just the biggest transformation of the span of every company is going for IOT now to drive those costs, efficiencies, and had, something's got some experience, the integrity of the topic karma, right? The security, integrity of that. How do you maintain integrity of your data beyond just a secure network components? That is true, right? That's where you're getting to the whole arena blockchain technologies, where you have to use digital signatures or barcodes that machine then, and then an intelligence system is automatically able to validate and verify the integrity of the data and the commands that are being executed by those end-user told them what I need to tell them that. >>So it's IOT machines, right? That is paramount. And if anybody is not keeping that into their equation, that in its own self is any system that is therefore maintaining the integrity of your commands and your hold that sits on those, those machines. Right? Second, you have your network. You need to have any else platform, which is able to restless all the fast network information, et cetera. And coupled with that data integrity piece, because for the management, ultimately they need to have a coherent view of the analytics, et cetera, et cetera. They need to know where the problems are again, right? So let's say if there's a problem with the integrity of the commands that are being executed by the machine, that's a much bigger problem than not being able to communicate with that machine and the best thing, because you'd rather not talk to the machine or have to do anything if it's going to start doing wrong things. >>So I think that's where it is. It's very intuitive. It's not true. You have to have subsequently if you have some kind of faith and let me use that use case self autonomous vehicles. Again, I think we're going to see in the next five years, because he's smart with the rates, et cetera, it won't separate autonomous cars. It's much more efficient, it's much more space, et cetera, et cetera. So within that equation, you're going to have systems which will be specialists in looking at aspects and transactions related to those systems. For example, in autonomous moving vehicles, brakes are much more important than the Vipers, right? So this kind of intelligence, it will be multiple systems who have to sit, N nobody has to, one person has to go in one of these systems. I think these systems should be open source enough that they, if you were able to integrate them, right, if something's sitting in the cloud, you were able to integrate for that with obviously the regard of the security and integrity of your data that has to traverse from one system to the other extremely important. >>So I'm going to borrow that integrity theme for a second, as we go into our last question, and that is this kind of take a macro look at the overall business impact that AI ops can help customers make. I'm thinking of, you know, the integrity of teams aligning business in it, which we probably can't talk about enough. We're helping organizations really effectively measure KPIs that deliver that digital experience that all of us demanding consumers expect. What's the overall impact. What would you say in summary fashion? >>So I think the overall impact is a lot of costs. That's customized and businesses gives the time to the time of enterprises. Defense was inevitable. It's something that for the first time, it will come to life. And it's something that is going to, you know, start driving cost efficiencies and consciousness and awareness within their own business, which is obviously going to have, you know, it domino kind of an effect. So one example being that, you know, you have problem isolation. I talked about network security, this multi-layers architecture, which enables this new world of 5g, um, at the heart of all of it, it has to identify the problem to the source, right? Not be bogged down by 15 different things that are going wrong. What is causing those 15 things to go wrong, right? That speed to isolation in its own sense can make millions and millions of dollars to organizations after we organize it. Next one is obviously overall impacted customer experience. Uh, 5g was given out of your customers, expecting experiences from you, even if you're not expecting to deliver them in 2021, 2022, it would have customers asking for those experience or walking away, if you do not provide those experience. So it's almost like a business can do nothing every year. They don't have to reinvest if they just want to die on the line, businesses want remain relevant. >>Businesses want to adopt the latest and greatest in technology, which enables them to, you know, have that superiority and continue it. So from that perspective that continue it, he will read that they write intelligence systems that tank rationalizing information and making decisions supervised by people, of course were previously making some of those. >>That was a great summary because you're right, you know, with how demanding consumers are. We don't get what we want quickly. We churn, right? We go somewhere else and we could find somebody that can meet those expectations. So it has been thanks for doing a great job of clarifying the impact and the value that AI ops can bring to organizations that sounds really now is we're in this even higher demand for digital products and services, which is not going away. It's probably going to only increase it's table stakes for any organization. Thank you so much for joining me today and giving us your thoughts. >>Pleasure. Thank you. We'll be right back with our next segment. >>Digital applications and services are more critical to a positive customer and employee experience than ever before. But the underlying infrastructure that supports these apps and services has become increasingly complex and expanding use of multiple clouds, mobile and microservices, along with modern and legacy infrastructure can make it difficult to pinpoint the root cause when problems occur, it can be even more difficult to determine the business impact your problems that occur and resolve them efficiently. AI ops from Broadcom can help first by providing 360 degree visibility, whether you have hybrid cloud or a cloud native AI ops from Broadcom provides a clear line of sight, including apt to infrastructure and network visibility across hybrid environments. Second, the solution gives you actionable insights by correlating an aggregating data and applying AI and machine learning to identify root causes and even predict problems before users are impacted. Third AI ops from Broadcom provides intelligent automation that identifies potential solutions when problems occur applied to the best one and learns from the effectiveness to improve response in case the problem occurs. Again, finally, the solution enables organizations to achieve digit with jelly by providing feedback loops across development and operations to allow for continuous improvements and innovation through these four capabilities. AI ops from Broadcom can help you reduce service outages, boost, operational efficiency, and effectiveness and improve customer and employee experience. To learn more about AI ops from Broadcom, go to broadcom.com/ai ops from around the globe. >>It's the cube with digital coverage of AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome back to the AI ops virtual forum, Lisa Martin here with Srinivasan, Roger Rajagopal, the head of product and strategy at Broadcom. Raj, welcome here, Lisa. I'm excited for our conversation. So I wanted to dive right into a term that we hear all the time, operational excellence, right? We hear it everywhere in marketing, et cetera, but why is it so important to organizations as they head into 2021? And tell us how AI ops as a platform can help. >>Yeah. Well, thank you. First off. I wanna, uh, I want to welcome our viewers back and, uh, I'm very excited to, uh, to share, um, uh, more info on this topic. You know, uh, here's what we believe as we work with large organizations, we see all our organizations are poised to get out of the, uh, the pandemic and look for a brood for their own business and helping customers get through this tough time. So fiscal year 2021, we believe is going to be a combination of, uh, you know, resiliency and agility at the, at the same time. So operational excellence is critical because the business has become more digital, right? There are going to be three things that are going to be more sticky. Uh, you know, remote work is going to be more sticky, um, cost savings and efficiency is going to be an imperative for organizations and the continued acceleration of digital transformation of enterprises at scale is going to be in reality. So when you put all these three things together as a, as a team that is, uh, you know, that's working behind the scenes to help the businesses succeed, operational excellence is going to be, make or break for organizations, >>Right with that said, if we kind of strip it down to the key capabilities, what are those key capabilities that companies need to be looking for in an AI ops solution? >>Yeah, you know, so first and foremost, AI ops means many things to many, many folks. So let's take a moment to simply define it. The way we define AI ops is it's a system of intelligence, human augmented system that brings together full visibility across app infra and network elements that brings together disparate data sources and provides actionable intelligence and uniquely offers intelligent automation. Now, the, the analogy many folks draw is the self-driving car. I mean, we are in the world of Teslas, uh, but you know, uh, but self-driving data center is it's too far away, right? Autonomous systems are still far away. However, uh, you know, application of AI ML techniques to help deal with volume velocity, veracity of information, uh, is, is critical. So that's how we look at AI ops and some of the key capabilities that we, uh, that we, uh, that we work with our customers to help them on our own for eight years. >>Right? First one is eyes and ears. What we call full stack observability. If you do not know what is happening in your systems, uh, you know, that that serve up your business services. It's going to be pretty hard to do anything, uh, in terms of responsiveness, right? So from stack observability, the second piece is what we call actionable insights. So when you have disparate data sources, tools, sprawls data coming at you from, uh, you know, uh, from a database systems, it systems customer management systems, ticketing systems. How do you find the needle from the haystack? And how do you respond rapidly from a myriad of problems as CEO of red? The third area is what we call intelligent automation. Well, identifying the problem to act on is important, and then acting on automating that and creating, uh, a recommendation system where, uh, you know, you can be proactive about it is even more important. And finally, all of this focuses on efficiency. What about effectiveness? Effectiveness comes when you create a feedback loop, when what happens in production is related to your support systems and your developers so that they can respond rapidly. So we call that continuous feedback. So these are the four key capabilities that, uh, you know, uh, you should look for in an AI ops system. And that's what we offer as well. >>Russia, there's four key capabilities that businesses need to be looking for. I'm wondering how those help to align business. And it it's, again like operational excellence. It's something that we talk about a lot is the alignment of business. And it a lot more challenging, easier said than done, right. But I want you to explain how can AI ops help with that alignment and align it outputs to business outcomes? >>Yeah. So, you know, one of the things, uh, I'm going to say something that is, uh, that is, uh, that is simple, but, but, but this harder, but alignment is not on systems alignment is with people, right? So when people align, when organizations align, when cultures align, uh, dramatic things can happen. So in the context of AI ops VC, when, when SRE is aligned with the DevOps engineers and information architects and, uh, uh, you know, it operators, uh, you know, they enable organizations to reduce the gap between intent and outcome or output and outcome that said, uh, you know, these personas need mechanisms to help them better align, right. Help them better visualize, see the, you know, what we call single source of truth, right? So there are four key things that I want to call out. When we work with large enterprises, we find that customer journey alignment with the, you know, what we call it systems is critical. >>So how do you understand your business imperatives and your customer journey goals, whether it is car to a purchase or whether it is, uh, you know, bill shock scenarios and Swan alignment on customer journey to your it systems is one area that you can reduce the gap. The second area is how do you create a scenario where your teams can find problems before your customers do right outage scenarios and so on. So that's the second area of alignment. The third area of alignment is how can you measure business impact driven services? Right? There are several services that an organization offers versus an it system. Some services are more critical to the business than others, and these change in a dynamic environment. So how do you, how do you understand that? How do you measure that and how, how do you find the gaps there? So that's the third area of alignment that we, that we help and last but not least there are, there are things like NPS scores and others that, that help us understand alignment, but those are more long-term. But in the, in the context of, uh, you know, operating digitally, uh, you want to use customer experience and business, uh, you know, a single business outcome, uh, as a, as a key alignment factor, and then work with your systems of engagement and systems of interaction, along with your key personas to create that alignment. It's a people process technology challenge. >>So, whereas one of the things that you said there is that it's imperative for the business to find a problem before a customer does, and you talked about outages there, that's always a goal for businesses, right. To prevent those outages, how can AI ops help with that? Yeah, >>So, you know, outages, uh, talk, you know, go to resiliency of a system, right? And they also go to, uh, uh, agility of the same system, you know, if you're a customer and if you're whipping up your mobile app and it takes more than three milliseconds, uh, you know, you're probably losing that customer, right. So outages mean different things, you know, and there's an interesting website called down detector.com that actually tracks all the old pages of publicly available services, whether it's your bank or your, uh, you know, tele telecom service or a mobile service and so on and so forth. In fact, the key question around outages for, from, uh, from, uh, you know, executives are the question of, are you ready? Right? Are you ready to respond to the needs of your customers and your business? Are you ready to rapidly resolve an issue that is impacting customer experience and therefore satisfaction? >>Are you creating a digital trust system where customers can be, you know, um, uh, you know, customers can feel that their information is secure when they transact with you, all of these, getting into the notion of resiliency and outages. Now, you know, one of the things that, uh, that I, I often, uh, you know, work with customers around, you know, would that be find as the radius of impact is important when you deal with outages? What I mean by that is problems occur, right? How do you respond? How quickly do you take two seconds, two minutes, 20 minutes, two hours, 20 hours, right? To resolve the problem that radius of impact is important. That's where, you know, you have to bring a gain people, process technology together to solve that. And the key thing is you need a system of intelligence that can aid your teams, you know, look at the same set of parameters so that you can respond faster. That's the key here. >>We look at digital transformation at scale. Raj, how does AI ops help influence that? >>You know, um, I'm going to take a slightly long-winded way to answer this question. See when it comes to digital transformation at scale, the focus on business purpose and business outcome becomes extremely critical. And then the alignment of that to your digital supply chain, right, are the, are the, are the key factors that differentiate winners in the, in their digital transformation game? Really, what we have seen, uh, with, with winners is they operate very differently. Like for example, uh, you know, Nike matures, its digital business outcomes by shoes per second, right? Uh, Apple by I-phones per minute, Tesla by model threes per month, are you getting this, getting it right? I mean, you want to have a clear business outcome, which is a measure of your business, uh, in effect, I mean, ENC, right? Which, which, uh, um, my daughter use and I use very well. >>Right. Uh, you know, uh, they measure by revenue per hour, right? I mean, so these are key measures. And when you have a key business outcome measure like that, you can everything else, because you know what these measures, uh, you know, uh, for a bank, it may be deposits per month, right now, when you move money from checking account to savings account, or when you do direct deposits, those are, you know, banks need liquidity and so on and so forth. But, you know, the, the key thing is that single business outcome has a Starburst effect inside the it organization that touches a single money moment from checking a call to savings account can touch about 75 disparate systems internally. Right? So those think about it, right? I mean, all, all we're doing is moving money from checking account a savings account. Now that goats into a it production system, there are several applications. >>There is a database, there is, there are infrastructures, there are load balancers that are webs. You know, you know, the web server components, which then touches your, your middleware component, which is a queuing system, right. Which then touches your transactional system. Uh, and, uh, you know, which may be on your main frames, what we call mobile to mainframe scenario, right? And we are not done yet. Then you have a security and regulatory compliance system that you have to touch a fraud prevention system that you have to touch, right? A state department regulation that you may have to meet and on and on and on, right? This is the chat that it operations teams face. And when you have millions of customers transacting, right, suddenly this challenge cannot be managed by human beings alone. So therefore you need a system of intelligence that augments human intelligence and acts as your, you know, your, your eyes and ears in a way to, to point pinpoint where problems are. >>Right. So digital transformation at scale really requires a very well thought out AI ops system, a platform, an open extensible platform that, uh, you know, uh, that is heterogeneous in nature because there's tools, products in organizations. There is a lot of databases in systems. There are millions of, uh, uh, you know, customers and hundreds of partners and vendors, you know, making up that digital supply chain. So, you know, AI ops is at the center of an enabling an organization achieve digital op you know, transformation at scale last but not least. You need continuous feedback loop. Continuous feedback loop is the ability for a production system to inform your dev ops teams, your finance teams, your customer experience teams, your cost modeling teams about what is going on so that they can so that they can reduce the intent, come gap. >>All of this need to come together, what we call BizOps. >>That was a great example of how you talked about the Starburst effect. I actually never thought about it in that way, when you give the banking example, but what you should is the magnitude of systems. The fact that people alone really need help with that, and why intelligent automation and AI ops can be transformative and enable that scale. Raj, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for joining me today. And we'll be right back with our next segment. Welcome back to the AI ops virtual forum. We've heard from our guests about the value of AI ops and why and how organizations are adopting AI ops platforms. But now let's see AI ops inaction and get a practical view of AI ops to deep Dante. The head of AI ops at Broadcom is now going to take you through a quick demo. >>Hello. So they've gotta head off AI ops and automation here. What I'm going to do today is talk through some of the key capabilities and differentiators of Broadcom's CII ops solution in this solution, which can be delivered on cloud or on-prem. We bring a variety of metric alarm log and applauded data from multiple sources, EPM, NetApps, and infrastructure monitoring tools to provide a single point of observability and control. Let me start where our users mostly stock key enterprises like FSI, telcos retailers, et cetera, do not manage infrastructure or applications without having a business context. At the end of the day, they offer business services governed by SLS service level objectives and SLI service level indicators are service analytics, which can scale to a few thousand services, lets our customers create and monitor the services as per their preference. They can create a hierarchy of services based on their business practice. >>For example, here, the sub services are created based on functional subsistence for certain enterprises. It could be based on location. Users can import these services from their favorite CMDB. What's important to note that not all services are born equal. If you are a modern bank, you may want to prioritize tickets coming from digital banking, for example, and this application lets you rank them as per the KPI of your choice. We can source the availability, not merely from the state of the infrastructure, whether they're running or not. But from the SLS that represent the state of the application, when it comes to triaging issues related to the service, it is important to have a complete view of the topology. The typology can show both east-west elements from mobile to mainframe or not South elements in a network flow. This is particularly relevant for a large enterprise who could be running the systems of engagement on the cloud and system of records on mainframe inside the firewall here, you can see that the issue is related to the mainframe kick server. >>You can expand to see the actual alarm, which is sourced from the mainframe operational intelligence. Similarly, clicking on network will give the hub and spoke view of the network devices, the Cisco switches and routers. I can click on the effected router and see all the details Broadcom's solution stores, the ontological model of the typology in the form of a journal graph where one can not only view the current state of the typology, but the past as well, talking of underlying data sources, the solution uses best of the pre data stores for structured and unstructured data. We have not only leveraged the power of open source, but have actively contributed back to the community. One of the key innovations is evident in our dashboarding framework because we have enhanced the open source Grafana technology to support these diverse data sources here. You can see a single dashboard representing applications to infrastructure, to mainframe again, sourcing a variety of data from these sources. >>When we talk to customers, one of the biggest challenges that they face today is related to alarms because of a proliferation of tools. They are currently drowning in an ocean of hundreds and thousands of alarms. This increases the Elmont support cost to tens of dollars per ticket, and also affects LTO efficiency leading to an average of five to six hours of meantime to resolution here is where we have the state of the art innovation utilizing the power of machine learning and ontology to arrive at the root cause we not only clusterize alarms based on text, but employ the technique of 41st. We look at the topology then at the time window duplicate text based on NLP. And lastly learn from continuous training of the model to deduce what we call situations. This is an example of a situation. As you can see, we provide a time-based evidence of how things unfolded and arrive at a root cause. >>Lastly, the solution provides a three 60 degree closed loop remediation either through a ticketing system or by direct invocation of automation actions instead of firing hard-coded automation runbooks for certain conditions, the tool leverage is machine learning to rank automation actions based on past heuristics. That's why we call it intelligent automation to summarize AI ops from Broadcom helps you achieve operational excellence through full stack observability, coupled with AIML that applies across modern hybrid cloud environments, as well as legacy ones uniquely. It ties these insights with intelligent automation to improve customer experience. Thank you for watching from around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AI ops virtual forum brought to you by Broadcom. >>Welcome to our final segment today. So we've discussed today. The value that AI ops will bring to organizations in 2021, we'll discuss that through three different perspectives. And so now we want to bring those perspectives together and see if we can get a consensus on where AI ops needs to go for folks to be successful with it in the future. So bringing back some folks Richland is back with us. Senior analysts, serving infrastructure and operations professionals at Forrester smartness here is also back in global product management at Verizon and Srinivasan, Reggie Gopaul head of product and strategy at Broadcom guys. Great to have you back. So let's jump in and rich, we're going to, we're going to start with you, but we are going to get all three of you, a chance to answer the questions. So we've talked about why organizations should adopt AI ops, but what happens if they choose not to what challenges would they face? Basically what's the cost of organizations doing nothing >>Good question, because I think in operations for a number of years, we've kind of stand stood, Pat, where we are, where we're afraid change things sometimes, or we just don't think about a tooling as often. The last thing to change because we're spending so much time doing project work and modernization and fighting fires on a daily basis. >>Problem is going to get worse. If we do nothing, >>You know, we're building new architectures like containers and microservices, which means more things to mind and keep running. Um, we're building highly distributed systems. We're moving more and more into this hybrid world, a multi-cloud world, uh, it's become over-complicate and I'll give a short anecdote. I think, eliminate this. Um, when I go to conferences and give speeches, it's all infrastructure operations people. And I say, you know, how many people have three X, five X, you know, uh, things to monitor them. They had, you know, three years ago, two years ago, and everyone's saying how many people have hired more staff in that time period, zero hands go up. That's the gap we have to fill. And we have to fill that through better automation, more intelligent systems. It's the only way we're going to be able to fill back out. >>What's your perspective, uh, if organizations choose not to adopt AI ops. Yeah. So I'll do that. Yeah. So I think it's, I would just relate it to a couple of things that probably everybody >>Tired off lately and everybody can relate to. And this would resonate that we have 5g, which is all set to transform the world. As we know it, I don't have a lot of communication with these smart cities, smart communities, IOT, which is going to make us pivotal to the success of businesses. And as you've seen with this call with, you know, transformation of the world, that there's a, there's a much bigger cost consciousness out there. People are trying to become much more, forward-looking much more sustainable. And I think at the heart of all of this, that the necessity that you have intelligent systems, which are bastardizing more than enough information that previously could've been overlooked because if you don't measure engagement, not going right. People not being on the same page of this using two examples or hundreds of things, you know, that play a part in things, but not coming together in the best possible way. So I think it has an absolute necessity to drive those cost efficiencies rather than, you know, left right and center laying off people who are like 10 Mattel to your business and have a great tribal knowledge of your business. So to speak, you can drive these efficiencies through automating a lot of those tasks that previously were being very manually intensive or resource intensive. And you could allocate those resources towards doing much better things, which let's be very honest going into 20, 21 after what we've seen with 2020, it's going to be mandate treat. >>And so Raj, I saw you shaking your head there when he was mom was sharing his thoughts. What are your thoughts about that sounds like you agree. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, uh, to put things in perspective, right? I mean we're firmly in the digital economy, right? Digital economy, according to the Bureau of economic analysis is 9% of the U S GDP. Just, you know, think about it in, in, in, in, in the context of the GDP, right? It's only ranked lower, slightly lower than manufacturing, which is at 11.3% GDP and slightly about finance and insurance, which is about seven and a half percent GDP. So the digital economy is firmly in our lives, right. And as Huisman was talking about it, you know, software eats the world and digital, operational excellence is critical for customers, uh, to, uh, you know, to, uh, to drive profitability and growth, uh, in the digital economy. >>It's almost, you know, the key is digital at scale. So when, uh, when rich talks about some of the challenges and when Huseman highlights 5g as an example, those are the things that, that, that come to mind. So to me, what is the cost or perils of doing nothing? You know, uh, it's not an option. I think, you know, more often than not, uh, you know, C-level execs are asking head of it and they are key influencers, a single question, are you ready? Are you ready in the context of addressing spikes in networks because of the pandemic scenario, are you ready in the context of automating away toil? Are you ready to respond rapidly to the needs of the digital business? I think AI ops is critical. >>That's a great point. Roger, where does stick with you? So we got kind of consensus there, as you said, wrapping it up. This is basically a, not an option. This is a must to go forward for organizations to be successful. So let's talk about some quick wins, or as you talked about, you know, organizations and sea levels asking, are you ready? What are some quick wins that that organizations can achieve when they're adopting AI? >>You know, um, immediate value. I think I would start with a question. How often do your customers find problems in your digital experience before you do think about that? Right. You know, if you, if you, you know, there's an interesting web, uh, website, um, uh, you know, down detector.com, right? I think, uh, in, in Europe there is an equal amount of that as well. It ha you know, people post their digital services that are down, whether it's a bank that, uh, you know, customers are trying to move money from checking account, the savings account and the digital services are down and so on and so forth. So some and many times customers tend to find problems before it operations teams do. So a quick win is to be proactive and immediate value is visibility. If you do not know what is happening in your complex systems that make up your digital supply chain, it's going to be hard to be responsive. So I would start there >>Visibility this same question over to you from Verizon's perspective, quick wins. >>Yeah. So I think first of all, there's a need to ingest this multi-care spectrum data, which I don't think is humanly possible. You don't have people having expertise, you know, all the seven layers of the OSI model and then across network and security and at the application level. So I think you need systems which are now able to get that data. It shouldn't just be wasted reports that you're paying for on a monthly basis. It's about time that you started making the most of those in the form of identifying what are the efficiencies within your ecosystem. First of all, what are the things, you know, which could be better utilized subsequently you have the >>Opportunity to reduce the noise of a trouble tickets handling. It sounds pretty trivial, but >>An average you can imagine every trouble tickets has the cost in dollars, right? >>So, and there's so many tickets and there's art >>That get created on a network and across an end user application value, >>We're talking thousands, you know, across and end user >>Application value chain could be million in >>A year. So, and so many of those are not really, >>He, you know, a cause of concern because the problem is something. >>So I think that whole triage is an immediate cost saving and the bigger your network, the bigger >>There's a cost of things, whether you're a provider, whether you're, you know, the end customer at the end of the day, not having to deal with problems, which nobody can resolve, which are not meant to be dealt with. There's so many of those situations, right, where service has just been adopted, >>Which is just coordinate quality, et cetera, et cetera. So many reasons. So those are the, >>So there's some of the immediate cost saving them. They are really, really significant. >>Secondly, I would say Raj mentioned something about, you know, the user, >>Your application value chain, and an understanding of that, especially with this hybrid cloud environment, >>Et cetera, et cetera, right? The time it takes to identify a problem in an end user application value chain across the seven layers that I mentioned with the OSI reference model across network and security and the application environment. It's something that >>In its own self has massive cost to business, >>Right? That could be >>No sale transactions that could be obstructed because of this. There could be, and I'm going to use a really interesting example. >>We talk about IOT. The integrity of the IOT machine is exciting. >>Family is pivotal in this new world that we're stepping into. >>You could be running commands, >>Super efficient. He has, everything is being told to the machine really fast with sending yeah. >>Everything there. What if it's hacked? And if that's okay, >>Robotic arm starts to involve the things you don't want it to do. >>So there's so much of that. That becomes a part of this naturally. And I believe, yes, this is not just like from a cost >>standpoint, but anything going wrong with that code base, et cetera, et cetera. These are massive costs to the business in the form of the revenue. They have lost the perception in the market as a result, the fed, >>You know, all that stuff. So >>These are a couple of very immediate problems, but then you also have the whole player virtualized resources where you can automate the allocation, you know, the quantification of an orchestration of those virtualized resources, rather than a person having to, you know, see something and then say, Oh yeah, I need to increase capacity over here, because then it's going to have this particular application. You have systems doing this stuff and to, you know, Roger's point your customer should not be identifying your problems before you, because this digital is where it's all about perception. >>Absolutely. We definitely don't want the customers finding it before. So rich, let's wrap this particular question up with you from that senior analyst perspective, how can companies use make big impact quickly with AI ops? Yeah, >>Yeah, I think, you know, and it was been really summed up some really great use cases there. I think with the, uh, you know, one of the biggest struggles we've always had in operations is isn't, you know, the mean time to resolve. We're pretty good at resolving the things. We just have to find the thing we have to resolve. That's always been the problem and using these advanced analytics and machine learning algorithms now across all machine and application data, our tendency is humans is to look at the console and say, what's flashing red. That must be what we have to fix, but it could be something that's yellow, somewhere else, six services away. And we have made things so complicated. And I think this is what it was when I was saying that we can't get there anymore on our own. We need help to get there in all of this stuff that the outline. >>So, so well builds up to a higher level thing of what is the customer experience about what is the customer journey? And we've struggled for years in the digital world and measuring that a day-to-day thing. We know an online retail. If you're having a bad experience at one retailer, you just want your thing. You're going to go to another retailer, brand loyalty. Isn't one of like it, wasn't a brick and mortal world where you had a department store near you. So you were loyal to that because it was in your neighborhood, um, online that doesn't exist anymore. So we need to be able to understand the customer from that first moment, they touch a digital service all the way from their, their journey through that digital service, the lowest layer, whether it be a database or the network, what have you, and then back to them again, and we're not understanding, is that a good experience? >>We gave them. How does that compare to last week's experience? What should we be doing to improve that next week? Uh, and I think companies are starting and then the pandemic certainly, you know, push this timeline. If you listened to the, the, the CEO of Microsoft, he's like, you know, 10 years of digital transformation written down. And the first several months of this, um, in banks and in financial institutions, I talked to insurance companies, aren't slowing down. They're trying to speed up. In fact, what they've discovered is that they're, you know, obviously when we were on lockdown or what have you, they use of digital servers is spiked very high. What they've learned is they're never going to go back down. They're never going to return to pretend endemic levels. So now they're stuck with this new reality. Well, how do we service those customers and how do we make sure we keep them loyal to our brand? >>Uh, so, you know, they're looking for modernization opportunities. A lot of that that's things have been exposed. And I think Raj touched upon this very early in the conversation is visibility gaps. Now that we're on the outside, looking in at the data center, we know we architect things in a very way. Uh, we better ways of making these correlations across the Sparrow technologies to understand where the problems lies. We can give better services to our customers. And I think that's really what we're going to see a lot of the innovation and the people really clamoring for these new ways of doing things that starting, you know, now, I mean, I've seen it in customers, but I think really the push through the end of this year to next year when, you know, economy and things like that straightened out a little bit more, I think it really, people are gonna take a hard look of where they are and is, you know, AI ops the way forward for them. And I think they'll find it. The answer is yes, for sure. >>So we've, we've come to a consensus that, of what the parallels are of organizations, basically the cost of doing nothing. You guys have given some great advice on where some of those quick wins are. Let's talk about something Raj touched on earlier is organizations, are they really ready for truly automated AI? Raj, I want to start with you readiness factor. What are your thoughts? >>Uh, you know, uh, I think so, you know, we place our, her lives on automated systems all the time, right? In our, in our day-to-day lives, in the, in the digital world. I think, uh, you know, our, uh, at least the customers that I talk to our customers are, uh, are, uh, you know, uh, have a sophisticated systems. Like for example, advanced automation is a reality. If you look at social media, AI and ML and automation are used to automate away, uh, misinformation, right? If you look at financial institutions, AI and ML are used to automate away a fraud, right? So I want to ask our customers why can't we automate await oil in it, operation systems, right? And that's where our customers are. Then the, you know, uh, I'm a glass half full, uh, cleanup person, right? Uh, this pandemic has been harder on many of our customers, but I think what we have learned from our customers is they've Rose to the occasion. >>They've used digital as a key needs, right? At scale. That's what we see with, you know, when, when Huseman and his team talk about, uh, you know, network operational intelligence, right. That's what it means to us. So I think they are ready, the intersection of customer experience it and OT, operational technology is ripe for automation. Uh, and, uh, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna sort of give a shout out to three key personas in this mix. It's about people, right? One is the SRE persona, you know, site, reliability engineer. The other is the information security persona. And the third one is the it operator automation engineer persona. These folks in organizations are building a system of intelligence that can respond rapidly to the needs of their digital business. We at Broadcom, we are in the business of helping them construct a system of intelligence that will create a human augmented solution for them. Right. So when I see, when I interact with large enterprise customers, I think they, they, you know, they, they want to achieve what I would call advanced automation and AI ML solutions. And that's squarely, very I ops is, you know, is going as it, you know, when I talk to rich and what, everything that rich says, you know, that's where it's going and that's what we want to help our customers to. So, which about your perspective of organizations being ready for truly automated AI? >>I think, you know, the conversation has shifted a lot in the last, in, in pre pandemic. Uh, I'd say at the end of last year, we're, you know, two years ago, people I'd go to conferences and people come up and ask me like, this is all smoke and mirrors, right? These systems can't do this because it is such a leap forward for them, for where they are today. Right. We we've sort of, you know, in software and other systems, we iterate and we move forward slowly. So it's not a big shock. And this is for a lot of organizations that big, big leap forward where they're, they're running their operations teams today. Um, but now they've come around and say, you know what? We want to do this. We want all the automations. We want my staff not doing the low complexity, repetitive tasks over and over again. >>Um, you know, and we have a lot of those kinds of legacy systems. We're not going to rebuild. Um, but they need certain care and feeding. So why are we having operations? People do those tasks? Why aren't we automating those out? I think the other piece is, and I'll, I'll, I'll send this out to any of the operations teams that are thinking about going down this path is that you have to understand that the operations models that we're operating under in, in INO and have been for the last 25 years are super outdated and they're fundamentally broken for the digital age. We have to start thinking about different ways of doing things and how do we do that? Well, it's, it's people, organization, people are going to work together differently in an AI ops world, um, for the better. Um, but you know, there's going to be the, the age of the 40 person bridge call thing. >>Troubleshooting is going away. It's going to be three, four, five focused engineers that need to be there for that particular incident. Um, a lot of process mailer process we have in our level, one level, two engineering. What have you running of tickets, gathering of artifacts, uh, during an incident is going to be automated. That's a good thing. We should be doing those, those things by hand anymore. So I'd say that the, to people's like start thinking about what this means to your organization. Start thinking about the great things we can do by automating things away from people, having to do them over and over again. And what that means for them, getting them matched to what they want to be doing is high level engineering tasks. They want to be doing monitorization, working with new tools and technologies. Um, these are all good things that help the organization perform better as a whole great advice and great kind of some of the thoughts that you shared rich for what the audience needs to be on the lookout. For one, I want to go over to you, give me your thoughts on what the audience that should be on the lookout for, or put on your agendas in the next 12 months. >>So there's like a couple of ways to answer that question. One thing would be in the form of, you know, what are some of the things they have to be concerned about in terms of implementing this solution or harnessing its power. The other one could be, you know, what are the perhaps advantages they should look to see? So if I was to talk about the first one, let's say that, what are some of the things I have to watch out for like possible pitfalls that everybody has data, right? So yeah, there's one strategy we say, okay, you've got the data, let's see what we can do with them. But then there's the exact opposite side, which has to be considered when you're doing that analysis. What are the use cases that you're looking to drive? Right. But then use cases you have to understand, are you taking a reactive use case approach? >>Are you taking active use cases, right? Or, yeah, that's a very, very important concentration. Then you have to be very cognizant of where does this data that you have, where does it reside? What are the systems and where does it need to go to in order for this AI function to happen and subsequently if there needs to be any backward communication with all of that data in a process manner. So I think these are some of the very critical points because you can have an AI solution, which is sitting in a customer data center. It could be in a managed services provider data center, like, right, right. It could be in a cloud data center, like an AWS or something, or you could have hybrid views, et cetera, all of that stuff. So you have to be very mindful of where you're going to get the data from is going to go to what are the use cases you're trying to get out to do a bit of backward forward. >>Okay, we've got this data thing and I think it's a journey. Nobody can come in and say, Hey, you've built this fantastic thing. It's like Terminator two. I think it's a journey where we built starting with the network. My personal focus always comes down to the network and with 5g so much, so much more right with 5g, you're talking low latency communication. That's like the true power of 5g, right? It's low latency, it's ultra high bandwidth, but what's the point of that low latency. If then subsequently the actions that need to be taken to prevent any problems in application, IOT applications, remote surgeries, uh, self driving vehicles, et cetera, et cetera. What if that's where people are sitting and sipping their coffees and trying to take action that needs to be in low latency as well. Right? So these are, I think some of the fundamental things that you have to know your data, your use cases, that location, where it needs to be exchanged, what are the parameters around that for extending that data? >>And I think from that point at one word, it's all about realizing, you know, sense of business outcomes. Unless AI comes in as a digital labor that shows you, I have, I have reduced your this amount of time and that's a result of big problems or identified problems for anything. Or I have saved you this much resource in a month, in a year or whatever timeline that people want to see it. So I think those are some of the initial starting points, and then it all starts coming together. But the key is it's not one system that can do everything. You have to have a way where, you know, you can share data once you've caught all of that data into one system. Maybe you can send it to another system at make more, take more advantage, right? That system might be an AI and IOT system, which is just looking at all of your street and make it sure that Hey parents. So it's still off just to be more carbon neutral and all that great stuff, et cetera, et cetera, >>Stuff for the audience to can cigarette rush, take us time from here. What are some of the takeaways that you think the audience really needs to be laser focused on as we move forward into the next year? You know, one thing that, uh, I think a key takeaway is, um, uh, you know, as we embark on 2021, closing the gap between intent and outcome and outputs and outcome will become critical, is critical. Uh, you know, especially for, uh, you know, uh, digital transformation at scale for organizations context in the, you know, for customer experience becomes even more critical as who Swan Huseman was talking, uh, you know, being network network aware network availability is, is a necessary condition, but not sufficient condition anymore. Right? The what, what, what customers have to go towards is going from network availability to network agility with high security, uh, what we call app aware networks, right? How do you differentiate between a trade, a million dollar trade that's happening between, uh, you know, London and New York, uh, uh, versus a YouTube video training that an employee is going through? Worse is a YouTube video that millions of customers are, are >>Watching, right? Three different context, three different customer scenarios, right? That is going to be critical. And last but not least feedback loop, uh, you know, responsiveness is all about feedback loop. You cannot predict everything, but you can respond to things faster. I think these are sort of the three, three things that, uh, that, uh, you know, customers aren't going to have to have to really think about. And that's also where I believe AI ops, by the way, AI ops and I I'm. Yeah. You know, one of the points that was smart and shout out to what he was saying was heterogeneity is key, right? There is no homogeneous tool in the world that can solve problems. So you want an open extensible system of intelligence that, that can harness data from disparate data sources provide that visualization, the actionable insight and the human augmented recommendation systems that are so needed for, uh, you know, it operators to be successful. I think that's where it's going. >>Amazing. You guys just provided so much content context recommendations for the audience. I think we accomplished our goal on this. I'll call it power panel of not only getting to a consensus of what, where AI ops needs to go in the future, but great recommendations for what businesses in any industry need to be on the lookout for rich Huisman Raj, thank you for joining me today. We want to thank you for watching. This was such a rich session. You probably want to watch it again. Thanks for your time. Thanks so much for attending and participating in the AI OBS virtual forum. We really appreciate your time and we hope you really clearly understand the value that AI ops platforms can deliver to many types of organizations. I'm Lisa Martin, and I want to thank our speakers today for joining. We have rich lane from Forrester who's fund here from Verizon and Raj from Broadcom. Thanks everyone. Stay safe..

>>LA Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>It is so good to have you here on the cube. Once again as we kick off our coverage here live in Las Vegas at AWS, reinvent 2019 along with my a trusty sidekick, Justin Warren, John Walls here. I can't believe they put us back together again so I can't, I feel like I need a cake that actually I would be the trustee sidekick because you know he carries the water and I can wear this band. Andy Miller is going to wear the expert hat in this interview. He's the director of global public cloud at Sofo. So then you're good to see you. Thanks for joining us here on the cube. >>Thank you. It's great to be here. We're excited to be part of re-invent as a, I think this is our eighth year in a row of being part of the show and excited to be here on the cube. I uh, come bearing a couple of gifts. >>Do this every time I visited on the queue here. What do we have here at Sophos? Socks for ya. Soft Sofo songs. I love that look. That's very nice. Yeah. It's something we came up with a few years ago as part of the promotion for SIS admins day and it was so popular, it's never gone away after you're fired. You're hearing the cloud security, the security for the feet. Yes. Is what we have here. So, so your, your security, right. And it's all about the cloud these days. You just came out fairly recently with a, uh, a 2020 threat report. So once you give us kind of the high level and then we'll dig down a little deeper into that, but maybe the key takeaways from that report. >>Yeah, we, uh, we looked at a lot of different things, uh, in the threat report basically. Um, we do this every year, kind of look at trends in what we're seeing and so forth. And we saw a lot of interesting developments around ransomware, both in the cloud and in an on prem environments. But in the cloud, what we really saw was, you know, a continuation of the prevalence of, uh, the bad guys going after those assets, right? They know that there are some very large companies moving some very important data sets into the cloud and as such, they want to make sure that they can get at them as quickly as possible. So we see a very, uh, very, uh, prevalent and constant attack against, uh, those particular assets looking for data that they can steal. It seems that the, the bad act is here I just becoming more sophisticated every day and that they understand how to do cloud infrastructure really quite well. >>Are there specific things that are special to the cloud that are different from what you would have with an onsite environment that requires a different approach? Yeah, certainly when you move to the cloud, one of the things that's really important, and there was a talk about this in the keynote this morning, it's important to this idea of transformation rather than just transition. And the same is true with your security. You should use solutions that are specifically addressed and built for the cloud and that have very tight with a provider like AWS for instance. So it's important that those products integrate with the tools that are available to you through the provider as well as are again, specifically built for those solutions and can scale and move and so forth at the speed of the cloud. >>That seems like a no brainer, right? I mean that seems logical, but you're saying that that's not automatic, that there are those who are trying to cut on retrofit, if you will, a solutions that they've employed before that didn't go to work. >>Yeah. You know, for customers it's a challenge because oftentimes their journey to the cloud starts with a Andy Jassy referred to it today as toe dipping, and that is a very common way that people start in the cloud. And when you start out anything where you're just kind of dipping your toe in the water and then it gets a little further in and a little further in, that's an entire entirely different experience. Then we're not in the cloud and we're going to plan and plan our journey and go into the cloud. With a plan in place, you tend to evolve as you go. The other thing for customers is they may have security technologies that they've used for a long time that they're comfortable with and we all want to maintain a level of comfort, right? And so there are a lot of times you'll see them trying to see old a square peg round hole analogy, right? Trying to bang those technologies into the cloud even though they may not work really well for cloud deployment. >>Yeah, I mean it's a hard problem as well because security is such a difficult thing to solve. Even just all inside that if you add in the newness of cloud on top of that and then have to change the way that you address security, that that just adds a whole bunch of extra complexity into that. So what are some of the things that sofa is doing to help customers as they transition from, this is how you've done stuff in the past. This is how you're going to have to do things in the cloud. How are you helping customers to actually learn about what they need to do as they start to experiment with the way that they're using the cloud? >>Yeah. One of the first things, you know, we have a product that we introduced in April called Sophos cloud optics and one of the biggest challenges for customers as they move to cloud is maintaining visibility and control over their workloads. Uh, cloud deployments are very different in that a lot of times you have a development community that may not be as wired as tight with wired is tight with security as you'd like. And a lot of different people who are having input into deployments and changes to workloads. That's a different scenario a lot of times than on-prem. And so it creates situations where you may have new workloads introduced to the cloud or changes to workloads that happen on a constant and continuous basis. And customers need to be able to track that. And that's what Sophos cloud optics was designed to do, was to give them an idea of exactly what they will have running in the cloud at any time. And also what state of configuration that particular asset happens to be. >>I don't, I know one trend is actually tried to move that it's called shift left, which is to provide that visibility up, the stack of it towards the developers so that they can actually respond to what's happening in production or just to understand the security environment a bit better and then push that model, enable them to be able to make good and, and that stuff security being the, you know, the division of no way. You can't do anything at all, which business doesn't lie. The whole point of going to cloud is we want to go faster. We want to be able to do this with a more agile fashion. So it sounds like this is actually just providing that, that intelligence so that you can make those better decisions. >>Absolutely. In fact, a big part of the product is our infrastructures, a code scanning, uh, where we can scan a formation templates. Actually in the repositories before they're published and let the developers know, Hey, okay, you made some great changes to that, to that infrastructure. But in the process of doing that, you actually configure this out of out of the, uh, out of, uh, compliance with the policy that we have internally. So you need to make this change before you ever do it and really make that actually part of the dev ops loop so that, like you say, the department of no doesn't have to be, you know, big brother or daddy coming over the top and, and hammering on them, but instead making it part of their workflow and, um, and really buying, bringing them and buying them into the security process rather than just, you know, coming along behind. >>Yeah. I mean, this is on a bigger picture level. Um, there is some owners on the customer still, right? I mean, like, they can't just look at Sofo say, please take care of all my concerns and all my problems and, and button me up and let me focus. There is still some burden on their backs. Right. >>Absolutely. And, and, or ignore the provider. Right. And so it's, it's been an interesting journey. Um, when we first moved our, uh, our central platform and built our central platform into the cloud, um, in AWS cloud, there was a lot of resistance. I am not going to move security into cloud. This was a number of years ago. And now people sort of inherently trust cloud maybe a little too much in that they don't realize that while the AWS platform is very secure, what you put into the cloud is your responsibility and you need to apply all the controls that you would on prem to those workloads. And customers I think sometimes are a little bit confused about where does their responsibility lie versus what the vendor takes. And in this case, AWS takes care of, um, and what they need, what part they need to play in that. >>Yeah. And in their defense, some of the tools in cloud have kind of not really been there, but we had the announcement this morning where a Amazon announced all this S three access points. Yup. Which provides a, a bit of a, a better control mechanism for controlling S three bucket access, which is notorious for people leaving, you know, open buckets just sitting there on the internet and someone comes along and they suddenly, they have all of your data and that's, it's really easy with cloud to do that. Uh, so it's good to see those sorts of developments come along and, and we're, we're seeing more tooling being provided to customers that then helps them to make that kind of decision. That way they can take more responsibility. Otherwise it's like, well, you know, you want me to take more responsibility, but I, I kind of, how do I do it? >>Yeah, yeah. And, and it's important for us as well, and this is one of the things we, uh, we integrate with a number of services and you'll hear it first here on the cube. We're gonna announce a little later today. Um, some new additions to the optics platform, including integrations with things like Amazon detective. We have some new integrations in the AWS platform with our UTM offering as well. Um, so we continue to add those in, use those tools because essentially things like integrating with the, um, with the identity access management solution that Amazon's just announced that gives us information that we can use to populate along with all the other data that we gather in order to help keep customers secure. But we're really glad to see the, the, the new offering around S three buckets. Cause obviously that is a, uh, that is a very low hanging fruit for us. As you might say, it's not really difficult to detect, but it's been a huge problem for customers cause it's so easy to make that change to that control and cause a lot of damage with just a very small change that a perfectly well-meaning employee made and, and just made a mistake. So why, why is optics >>spend the home run for you? I mean, what, what, what gap did it feel? What service did it provide that, that um, I mean I know you always hope what you, >>we're all at works, but this has been, like I said, it's been a home, huh? Yeah. I, I think the biggest thing has been really helping customers to get their arms around what their cloud deployment looks like and what state it's in. So, you know, one of the things I frequently would, uh, would talk to customers when we first came out with the product was I would say, take out your cloud bill and if you can tell me every workload that is running on that cloud bell and who owns it and who's responsible for maintaining the security port or a profile of that, then we have nothing more to talk about. But the reality was, no one could. My own team, when we first got the optics product, we have our own really a playground environment for our security architects on our team to try out different things in AWS and so forth. We didn't even know everything that was running in the cloud belly. It turned out that we actually found some things that were running that were workloads that were fired up by employees that hadn't been with the company for two or more years and didn't even realize it and traced it back and were able to get rid of those and, and you know, essentially create a situation where we obviously spend less, but also that we don't have assets running that we're not aware of. Which is obviously a glaring hole for someone to take advantage of. >>Yeah, I mean there's lots of technology and advances coming out and there's a particularly advances in machine learning, for example, that that has a lot of promise for doing this, but yet a lot of the solution is security. It does seem to be just doing the basics and that just for a bit of discipline from customers, are they a customers really prepared to have that level of discipline and and take that responsibility to just do the hard work? >>I think to varying degrees. I think one of the things is you want to make it as easy for customers as humanly possible. You do not want to interrupt their flow of business for sure, but you also want to, you know, you want to make it so that they can implement the security controls that they need without as much with as little effort as humanly possible. And that's always been a big mantra for Sophos. We security made simple has been our, our tagline for, I dunno, four or five years and it's always been a guiding principle of the company because we feel like, you know, complex security is security that won't be implemented and not on a continuous basis for sure. We let off with ransomware and, and kind of left from there. I just want to get back to that if we can to close up. >>Is it, um, are there unique aspects to it in a cloud environment that, that create different kinds of complexity? So obviously this is not a new phenomenon, it's been around, right? But, but going into the shared source, the shared resource of what kind of difficulties does that bring and then what are you seeing that unique that you think you've really got are gonna need to ramp up your game to attack down the road? So I think there were some new, there were some new, uh, some changes to how people go about ransomware that are not unique to the cloud, that are the same across what is probably unique to the cloud is the prevalence at which people are constantly, the bad actors are constantly scanning it. So you talked earlier about, uh, their sophistication, their level of automation frankly is impressive. So we deployed earlier this year, we deployed in a a steady, uh, 10 workloads around the world. >>And in 10 different of AWS is most popular data centers. And what we found is, is I believe the first, uh, attempt to compromise happen in 52 seconds. The longest one was about 15 minutes. And then even more scary than that was the fact that once a, a server was, uh, discovered on the cloud, there was an on average and attempt every 13 seconds to compromise that it ended up totaling over 5 million in a 30 day period on 10 workloads. So the bad guys are out there, they're busy, they have an impressive level level of automation and a, I think they realize that the cloud is as good at target as any, but certainly going out at hard hardcore for sure. For sure. Well, Andy, thanks for the time. Uh, good to see you. And uh, more importantly, thanks for the socks now, right? Yes, exactly. Some more for the rest of the week. Let me know. We'll do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Back with more coverage here live where AWS reinvent 20, 19, and you're watching this here on the queue.

>> Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Inforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage in Boston, Massachusetts, here for two days, AWS Amazon Web Services re:Inforce, their inaugural conference around security. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, our next guest Andy Miller. Senior director, global public cloud at Sophos. Based out of the UK and here in Burlington, Massachusetts. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Looking good, love that jacket, nice color on you! (all laughing) >> I got the memo. >> You got the memo! >> Blue jacket! >> Thanks for having me, it's great to be here. It's great to be a part of AWS's first security event, security focused event, not by coincidence, happening right here where our US headquarters is. We're very excited to be a part of it. Wanted to share with you guys, I brought you a little gift. Socks are definitely a part of our-- >> Thank you, love the socks. >> Okay, I'm wearing them tomorrow. So we'll do a little close up on that. >> They're mostly clean. >> Thank you very much. Stu Miniman will love this, he loves socks. He'll replace his Star Wars socks with those. >> Thank you, Andy. >> Andy, thanks, so I want to get your impression of the show, obviously, inaugural event. And it's interesting, you look at Amazon, we've been covering Amazon for eight years with theCUBE, prior to that, just as a company, love the company, obviously, the success of cloud is a no-brainer. But re:Invent is their name of their global conference on the commercial side, for all their customers. And everything else they call summits. This is not a summit, this is not an Amazon Web Services summit, this is a branded event with the word re, not invent, but re:Inforce so gives that call out. Good call on their front? Is it needed? Why is this show so important, what's your opinion on that? >> I think it absolutely is, it's very helpful to customers to help them to understand their responsibilities when it comes to security in the cloud. And just like re:Invent was essentially reinventing the network into a digital environment, this is reinforcing their environment and understanding what their responsibilities are, where the cloud provider's very secure infrastructure ends and where their responsibilities with applications and data that resides in the cloud starts. >> What does your data show in terms of the evolving threat landscape? I mean, there's one school of thought that says okay, security in the cloud, actually, well it was a concern early on, people say oh it's better. That maybe raises the bar and lowers the ROI for the bad guys, but what are you seeing? But at the same time it's more global and distributed which opens up holes. What are your guys seeing? >> So, what we're seeing is that, the cloud's interesting in that there's not necessarily anything that is new or unique from an attack perspective. It's more of an attack surface perspective. And what I mean by that is is that, with an on premise environment, sometimes controls are very easy to place around new instances, new workloads being stood up, a change control process that is very controlled, key carded data centers and so forth. Cloud accounts operate very differently and one of the things that makes the cloud great is the speed at which you can go to market and stand up new resources, that also creates challenges for customers when it comes to visibility and securing those assets. >> Yeah, I mean the guy from Liberty Mutual today in the keynote, said his number one challenge is just keeping up with Amazon, the pace of change, you're seeing that in your client base? And how are they dealing with it? >> Absolutely, one of the conversations that I frequently have with customers when it comes to the visibility and keeping up with angle is, I frequently will say to customers, pull out your cloud bill, if you are aware of and know everything that is on that bill and where it came from, frankly I'd be very surprised. A lot of them struggle with that, with being able to keep up with that. And it's again a double edged sword, it's great as far as a business standpoint and being able to extend your business globally within minutes, but it's also a challenge for them from a security standpoint. >> And you talk about the challenges that businesses are up against when it comes to cloud security because on premises has decades of experiences dealing with security, the old days of perimeter based security, some still do that. Now the perimeter's pretty much gone away with cloud, cloud native has a different approach. So there seems to be a lot of questions around what to do, what are those challenges in cloud security specifically, that businesses face? >> So, you hit the first one, right? The first one is this concept of I build a castle and put a big wall around it and a moat around it, no longer exists, right? The perimeter is a memory. Another one is, as I mentioned before, the speed at which resources are added to the cloud, that's difficult for customers 'cause you can't see it, you can't secure it, right? If you don't know it exists. And then the third thing is really being able to understand how you make security happen within the cloud because those tools that you used on premise and in your own perimeter, don't necessarily exactly translate to the cloud. And it's important to have solutions that are designed for that and that not only work and operate well within the cloud but also don't take away the benefits of the cloud. If you have a solution that's going to slow you down or make it where you can't innovate at the speed of the cloud, you might as well keep it on prem, you're taking away all the benefit of the cloud. >> So, are you finding, a lot of times, the early cloud days with a lot of so called crapplications, just going to the cloud, okay. So maybe not as much credit card information, so maybe it's not as valuable, but are you seeing, people hitting the cloud more today than, say, certain on prem environments? Is it escalating, what does your data show? >> So, there was a study done not too long ago that showed past and projected cloud growth from 2017 to 2022. And what was interesting was the cloud services revenue growth was expected to grow by double, the cloud security spending was expected to grow by more than three times. And we think that was in large part of customers understanding their responsibilities in the shared security model, but also a product of exactly what you say, crapplications, right? One of our first customers that I think of was a convenience store chain, the very first things they moved, store locator and nutritional information applications. If something went wrong with those, yes, it's not great for your business if they can't find your store, but it's not credit card data, it's not personal information so on and so forth. As businesses start moving really key to the business applications, ERP systems, things like that, with real data that's at risk, that's where their focus on security is real strong. >> So there's a lot of confusion out there. And as I walk around the show floor here, I see, we secure the cloud, we the secure the cloud, no we secure the cloud! And I hear from Amazon we have a shared responsibility model, we secure the infrastructure, a lot of customers think, hey, Amazon has great security, so does Google, so does Microsoft, I'll put it in the cloud, I'll be good to go. Help us clear up some of that confusion, what's your point of view on that? >> Yeah, I think that when you look at it, customers were at one point extremely afraid of the cloud. And the cloud providers themselves did a great job of talking about why you could trust their infrastructure. In the process, I think customers have a difficult time understanding where their responsibility begins. And what we always like to say is, the cloud provider's responsible for the security of the cloud, you, Mr. Customer, are responsible for the security in the cloud. And the reason that's important is, the fact is the cloud providers could potentially provide the security in the cloud, but the measure of control that they would have over the applications that you build, the applications that you deploy, who you give access to and what you allow them to do would be so great, I don't think it would be a really positive experience for customers. >> Too many permutations. Just 'cause, criticism early on in cloud security wasn't that the security was bad, it was that, I couldn't enforce the edicts of my organization, there weren't enough features and now today, it's like you're drinking from this fire hose of features. So is that really the issue? It's up to you to figure out what works for your organization and then apply it. We heard today, you've got to opt in for things like encryption. Make sure you opt in to each availability zone. So that's a individual customer choice. Amazon provides the tools, okay, but then where do you pick up? Where does Sophos pick up? >> So, that's a great segue, so, as an example, our new Sophos Cloud Optics product does a great job with that, for instance uses the AWS CIS benchmarks. And that is a heavy heavy document that may be difficult for a customer to ingest, but we can run it against all of your workloads, your S3 buckets and see that you're in compliance with that CIS benchmark policy. That's a great place to start. Maybe you have some compliance regulations that you have to follow that have a security component to it such as BCI for example. And they would lead you towards things like identity and access management, they would lead you towards, am I following a good password policy? A good updating policy, am I sure that my S3 buckets are encrypted and not accessible to the internet without some sort of protection in place? All those things. >> The evolving cloud security landscape's changing on the threats side. You've got now detection, alerts, all these things are going on. You guys have some data on the cyber criminal activity. Up, down, is it more complex, harder to crack? Is there people cracking it? Certainly we know people are always trying, you can attack anything, we've seen foreign states enabling these groups out there, you've seen all kinds of cyber criminals, what's the data showing? >> So, the data shows, I think the most compelling thing. We did a study that we commissioned earlier this year where we placed workloads in 10 of AWS's most popular data centers around the world. And what we saw was, the first attempt to compromise one of those assets took all of 52 seconds. 52 seconds after we launched it there was an attempt to compromise it. More compelling was the fact that, on average it took a sum total of 40 minutes was the average time before an attempt to compromise took place. And, on top of that, once the asset was discovered, on average every 13 times every single minute of every single hour of every single day over a 30 day period, someone was attempting to compromise this. We ended up totalling over five million attempted compromises in a 30 day period on 10 assets. So, I think the biggest thing is not so much the techniques, but the level of automation that the bad guys have going on, they know that there are assets out there, that are not in a state that they necessarily should be and they are doing their level best to find them as absolutely quick as possible. >> What makes the cloud so attractive to the cyber criminals? >> I think the biggest thing is that as customers go from the crapplication into some real applications, they know that there is a lot of data there. They also know that customers are, well this is a newer platform for them, and they may be struggling with understanding exactly what they need to do differently than they did on prem in order to secure it. >> So follow up on that, how do you approach cloud security and how is different than on prem? >> So, the biggest difference is can it work within the fabric of the cloud? Is there tight integration with the things that the cloud providers offer? And do you not in any way hamper the great things about the cloud, scalability, the option to be available in a matter of seconds? If you are hampering that, then that's not security that's really going to work well, it's the whole benefit of the cloud in the first place, right? >> So sum up your cloud solution, what's the big problem that you guys solve? >> So, we have several different solutions that are available from a next generation firewall to our host protection. Our newest offering Sophos Cloud Optics, is really about helping them to gain that visibility, to understand exactly what they have running in the cloud, present a topology map that shows them how it connects, how it communicates, both internally and to the outside world. And then to constantly and continuously evaluate where they are in a security posture. >> So that's visibility into threats? >> Yep and for posture as well. >> Help look for quality alerts. >> Yep. >> Okay, so what's the customer orientation right now? Red, yellow, green? (he laughs) It seems to me it's always red. We asked someone earlier, what's a good day in security? And it's like, when we're still in business. There's a lot of pressure, again, hacking just shows you, it's easy to attack, certainly seconds to minutes, things are being compromised. It's going to happen on premise as well. What's the state of the union in your view? >> I think for customers there is a feeling sometimes and I think we as security vendors need to be careful about this, of not presenting the world as impossible to secure because I believe that it is absolutely possible to secure the world. I think there are some things that customers need to do, I think it's difficult for them sometimes to cut through some of the misinformation, the marketing spin and so on and so forth that's out there, but it's really incumbent upon them to look and read through the materials that are provided by the cloud providers to understand where their responsibilities begin and end. And then find the solutions that they've always used on prem and been successful with, that are ported to the cloud. And if they're not ported to the cloud to look for a different vendor. >> So why Sophos? >> So, Sophos has been around for 30 years. We have along history, we've been a security company, always a security company. And we have frankly what is a rather long track record in the cloud, we first ported our firewall to the cloud six years ago, we've continued to innovate in the cloud. We are able to do things that other vendors are not to support things that customers want to do, autoscaling, outbound gateway, things like that. And we continue to innovate that platform as well as add key pieces to our platform such as our Cloud Optics, which interestingly enough, came to us as we were shopping for it as a customer to support our own central infrastructure that runs in AWS. Our security guys thought, hey we need a product that will help us with visibility and posture management. And then they turned to the organization and said, hey this is great product, we ought to look at buying this company and that's how that acquisition came about. >> And so what's new with the company? What's going on, what are you guys doing? Got a lot here at Amazon, what other things you working on that's important to tell? >> Yeah, we're basically at this point, with that acquisition of Optics happened, it was a company called Avid Secure. That just went down in January this year, we released in the first week of April. Our own skinned Sophos version of the product. And we're really looking to continue that innovation. Our theme this year for our company was evolve. We feel that as the world evolves, security evolves and we have to evolve as well. And so there's a real focus on constantly evolving our products, innovating and trying to stay one step ahead of the bad guys, unfortunately. >> Andy, you've been around, we've been around, we've seen all waves come and go. Client server mainframe all the way back into those days to now. What do you think the most important story in the security industry is these days? What needs to be told that either is being told or needs to be amplified or isn't being told, what do you think's the high order bid in terms of the most important story? >> I think there's two fronts to that. One is as I mentioned, evolve was a big point of discussion in our internal meetings as well as our partner conferences. And helping customers to understand that their world has to evolve as well. The idea of a perimeter for instance, there are lot of companies that still try to stick to that idea of I can build a wall around my business. And the reality is is between mobile devices, between every employee practically has a laptop now, the idea of keeping that castle wall around your business is just unrealistic and so, customers have to understand that. They also have to understand that a migration to the cloud is inevitable and the sooner that they embrace that, the sooner they'll get the benefits of it and the sooner that they can begin the journey to the cloud. We feel it's inevitable. >> Andy, great insight, the evolving security threat landscape here on theCUBE. Live coverage covering AWS re:Inforce. Be right back with more after a short break, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, we'll be right back.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is >> a cute conversation. Hey, welcome back. Get ready. Geoffrey here with the Cube. We're gonna rip out the studios for acute conversation. It's the middle of the summer, the conference season to slow down a little bit. So we get a chance to do more cute conversation, which is always great. Excited of our next guest. He's Ridge, IP, Ops Statik. He's a VP and GM from key. Cite, Reject. Great to see you. >> Thank you for hosting us. >> Yeah. So we've had Marie on a couple of times. We had Bethany on a long time ago before the for the acquisition. But for people that aren't familiar with key site, give us kind of a quick overview. >> Sure, sure. So I'm within the excess solutions group Exhale really started was founded back in 97. It I peered around 2000 really started as a test and measurement company quickly after the I poet became the number one vendor in the space, quickly grew around 2012 and 2013 and acquired two companies Net optics and an ooey and net optics and I knew we were in the visibility or monitoring space selling taps, bypass witches and network packet brokers. So that formed the Visibility Group with a nice Xia. And then around 2017 key cite acquired Xia and we became I S G or extra Solutions group. Now, key site is also a very large test and measurement company. It is the actual original HB startup that started in Palo Alto many years ago. An HB, of course, grew, um it also started as a test and measurement company. Then later on it, it became a get a gun to printers and servers. HB spun off as agile in't, agile in't became the test and measurement. And then around 2014 I would say, or 15 agile in't spun off the test and measurement portion that became key site agile in't continued as a life and life sciences organization. And so key sites really got the name around 2014 after spinning off and they acquired Xia in 2017. So more joy of the business is testing measurement. But we do have that visibility and monitoring organization to >> Okay, so you do the test of measurement really on devices and kind of pre production and master these things up to speed. And then you're actually did in doing the monitoring in life production? Yes, systems. >> Mostly. The only thing that I would add is that now we are getting into live network testing to we see that mostly in the service provider space. Before you turn on the service, you need to make sure that all the devices and all the service has come up correctly. But also we're seeing it in enterprises to, particularly with security assessments. So reach assessment attacks. Security is your eye to organization really protecting the network? So we're seeing that become more and more important than they're pulling in test, particularly for security in that area to so as you. As you say, it's mostly device testing. But then that's going to network infrastructure and security networks, >> Right? So you've been in the industry for a while, you're it. Until you've been through a couple acquisitions, you've seen a lot of trends, so there's a lot of big macro things happening right now in the industry. It's exciting times and one of the ones. Actually, you just talked about it at Cisco alive a couple weeks ago is EJ Computer. There's a lot of talk about edges. Ej the new cloud. You know how much compute can move to the edge? What do you do in a crazy oilfield? With hot temperatures and no powers? I wonder if you can share some of the observations about EJ. You're kind of point of view as to where we're heading. And what should people be thinking about when they're considering? Yeah, what does EJ mean to my business? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So when I say it's computing, I typically include Io TI agent. It works is along with remote and branch offices, and obviously we can see the impact of Io TI security cameras, thermal starts, smart homes, automation, factory automation, hospital animation. Even planes have sensors on their engines right now for monitoring purposes and diagnostics. So that's one group. But then we know in our everyday lives, enterprises are growing very quickly, and they have remote and branch offices. More people are working from remotely. More people were working from home, so that means that more data is being generated at the edge. What it's with coyote sensors, each computing we see with oil and gas companies, and so it doesn't really make sense to generate all that data. Then you know, just imagine a self driving car. You need to capture a lot of data and you need to process. It just got really just send it to the cloud. Expect a decision to mate and then come back and so that you turn left or right, you need to actually process all that data, right? We're at the edge where the source of the data is, and that means pushing more of that computer infrastructure closer to the source. That also means running business critical applications closer to the source. And that means, you know, um, it's it's more of, ah, madness, massively distributed computer architecture. Um, what happens is that you have to then reliably connect all these devices so connectivity becomes important. But as you distribute, compute as well as applications, your attack surface increases right. Because all of these devices are very vulnerable. We're probably adding about 5,000,000 I ot devices every day to our network, So that's a lot of I O T. Devices or age devices that we connect many of these devices. You know, we don't really properly test. You probably know from your own home when you can just buy something and could easily connect it to your wife. I Similarly, people buy something, go to their work and connect to their WiFi. Not that device is connected to your entire network. So vulnerabilities in any of these devices exposes the entire network to that same vulnerability. So our attack surfaces increasing, so connection reliability as well as security for all these devices is a challenge. So we enjoy each computing coyote branch on road officers. But it does pose those challenges. And that's what we're here to do with our tech partners. Toe sold these issues >> right? It's just instinct to me on the edge because you still have kind of the three big um, the three big, you know, computer things. You got the networking right, which is just gonna be addressed by five g and a lot better band with and connectivity. But you still have store and you still have compute. You got to get those things Power s o a cz. You're thinking about the distribution of that computer and store at the edge versus in the cloud and you've got the Leighton see issue. It seems like a pretty delicate balancing act that people are gonna have to tune these systems to figure out how much to allocate where, and you will have physical limitations at this. You know the G power plant with the sure by now the middle of nowhere. >> It's It's a great point, and you typically get agility at the edge. Obviously, don't have power because these devices are small. Even if you take a room order branch office with 52 2 100 employees, there's only so much compute that you have. But you mean you need to be able to make decisions quickly. They're so agility is there. But obviously the vast amounts of computer and storage is more in your centralized data center, whether it's in your private cloud or your public cloud. So how do you do the compromise? When do you run applications at the edge when you were in applications in the cloud or private or public? Is that in fact, a compromise and year You might have to balance it, and it might change all the time, just as you know, if you look at our traditional history off compute. He had the mainframes which were centralized, and then it became distributed, centralized, distributed. So this changes all the time and you have toe make decisions, which which brings up the issue off. I would say hybrid, I t. You know, they have the same issue. A lot of enterprises have more of a, um, hybrid I t strategy or multi cloud. Where do you run the applications? Even if you forget about the age even on, do you run an on Prem? Do you run in the public cloud? Do you move it between class service providers? Even that is a small optimization problem. It's now even Matt bigger with H computer. >> Right? So the other thing that we've seen time and time again a huge trend, right? It's software to find, um, we've seen it in the networking space to compete based. It's offered to find us such a big write such a big deal now and you've seen that. So when you look at it from a test a measurement and when people are building out these devices, you know, obviously aton of great functional capability is suddenly available to people, but in terms of challenges and in terms of what you're thinking about in software defined from from you guys, because you're testing and measuring all this stuff, what's the goodness with the badness house for people, you really think about the challenges of software defined to take advantage of the tremendous opportunity. >> That's a really good point. I would say that with so far defined it working What we're really seeing is this aggregation typically had these monolithic devices that you would purchase from one vendor. That wonder vendor would guarantee that everything just works perfectly. What software defined it working, allows or has created is this desegregated model. Now you have. You can take that monolithic application and whether it's a server or a hardware infrastructure, then maybe you have a hyper visor or so software layer hardware, abstraction, layers and many, many layers. Well, if you're trying to get that toe work reliably, this means that now, in a way, the responsibility is on you to make sure that you test every all of these. Make sure that everything just works together because now we have choice. Which software packages should I install from which Bender This is always a slight differences. Which net Nick Bender should I use? If PJ smart Nick Regular Nick, you go up to the layer of what kind of ax elation should I use? D. P. D K. There's so many options you are responsible so that with S T N, you do get the advantage of opportunity off choice, just like on our servers and our PCs. But this means that you do have to test everything, make sure that everything works. So this means more testing at the device level, more testing at the service being up. So that's the predeployment stage and wants to deploy the service. Now you have to continually monitor it to make sure that it's working as you expected. So you get more choice, more diversity. And, of course, with segregation, you can take advantage of improvements on the hardware layer of the software layer. So there's that the segregation advantage. But it means more work on test as well as monitoring. So you know there's there's always a compromise >> trade off. Yeah, so different topic is security. Um, weird Arcee. This year we're in the four scout booth at a great chat with Michael the Caesars Yo there. And he talked about, you know, you talk a little bit about increasing surface area for attack, and then, you know, we all know the statistics of how long it takes people to know that they've been reach its center center. But Mike is funny. He you know, they have very simple sales pitch. They basically put their sniffer on your network and tell you that you got eight times more devices on the network than you thought. Because people are connecting all right, all types of things. So when you look at, you know, kind of monitoring test, especially with these increased surface area of all these, Iet devices, especially with bring your own devices. And it's funny, the H v A c seemed to be a really great place for bad guys to get in. And I heard the other day a casino at a casino, uh, connected thermometer in a fish tank in the lobby was the access point. How is just kind of changing your guys world, you know, how do you think about security? Because it seems like in the end, everyone seems to be getting he breached at some point in time. So it's almost Maur. How fast can you catch it? How do you minimize the damage? How do you take care of it versus this assumption that you can stop the reaches? You >> know, that was a really good point that you mentioned at the end, which is it's just better to assume that you will be breached at some point. And how quickly can you detect that? Because, on average, I think, according to research, it takes enterprise about six months. Of course, they're enterprise that are takes about a couple of years before they realize. And, you know, we hear this on the news about millions of records exposed billions of dollars of market cap loss. Four. Scout. It's a very close take partner, and we typically use deploy solutions together with these technology partners, whether it's a PM in P. M. But very importantly, security, and if you think about it, there's terabytes of data in the network. Typically, many of these tools look at the packet data, but you can't really just take those terabytes of data and just through it at all the tools, it just becomes a financially impossible toe provide security and deploy such tools in a very large network. So where this is where we come in and we were the taps, we access the data where the package workers was essentially groom it, filtering down to maybe tens or hundreds of gigs that that's really, really important. And then we feed it, feed it to our take partners such as Four Scout and many of the others. That way they can. They can focus on providing security by looking at the packets that really matter. For example, you know some some solutions only. Look, I need to look at the package header. You don't really need to see the send the payload. So if somebody is streaming Netflix or YouTube, maybe you just need to send the first mega byte of data not the whole hundreds of gigs over that to our video, so that allows them to. It allows us or helps us increase the efficiency of that tool. So the end customer can actually get a good R Y on that on that investment, and it allows for Scott to really look at or any of the tech partners to look at what's really important let me do a better job of investigating. Hey, have I been hacked? And of course, it has to be state full, meaning that it's not just looking at flow on one data flow on one side, looking at the whole communication. So you can understand What is this? A malicious application that is now done downloading other malicious applications and infiltrating my system? Is that a DDOS attack? Is it a hack? It's, Ah, there's a hole, equal system off attacks. And that's where we have so many companies in this in this space, many startups. >> It's interesting We had Tom Siebel on a little while ago actually had a W s event and his his explanation of what big data means is that there's no sampling air. And we often hear that, you know, we used to kind of prior to big day, two days we would take a sample of data after the fact and then tried to to do someone understanding where now the more popular is now we have a real time streaming engines. So now we're getting all the data basically instantaneously in making decisions. But what you just bring out is you don't necessarily want all the data all the time because it could. It can overwhelm its stress to Syria. That needs to be a much better management approach to that. And as I look at some of the notes, you know, you guys were now deploying 400 gigabit. That's right, which is bananas, because it seems like only yesterday that 100 gigabyte Ethan, that was a big deal a little bit about, you know, kind of the just hard core technology changes that are impacting data centers and deployments. And as this band with goes through the ceiling, what people are physically having to do, do it. >> Sure, sure, it's amazing how it took some time to go from 1 to 10 gig and then turning into 40 gig, but that that time frame is getting shorter and shorter from 48 2 108 100 to 400. I don't even know how we're going to get to the next phase because the demand is there and the demand is coming from a number of Trans really wants five G or the preparation for five G. A lot of service providers are started to do trials and they're up to upgrading that infrastructure because five G is gonna make it easier to access state of age quickly invest amounts of data. Whenever you make something easy for the consumer, they will consume it more. So that's one aspect of it. The preparation for five GS increasing the need for band with an infrastructure overhaul. The other piece is that we're with the neutralization. We're generating more Eastern West traffic, but because we're distributed with its computing, that East West traffic can still traverse data centers and geography. So this means that it's not just contained within a server or within Iraq. It actually just go to different locations. That also means your data center into interconnect has to support 400 gig. So a lot of network of hitmen manufacturers were typically call them. Names are are releasing are about to release 400 devices. So on the test side, they use our solutions to test these devices, obviously, because they want to release it based the standards to make sure that it works on. So that's the pre deployment phase. But once these foreign jiggy devices are deployed and typically service providers, but we're start slowly starting to see large enterprises deploy it as a mention because because of visualization and computing, then the question is, how do you make sure that your 400 gig infrastructure is operating at the capacity that you want in P. M. A. P M. As well as you're providing security? So there's a pre deployment phase that we help on the test side and then post deployment monitoring face. But five G is a big one, even though we're not. Actually we haven't turned on five year service is there's tremendous investment going on. In fact, key site. The larger organization is helping with a lot of these device testing, too. So it's not just Xia but key site. It's consume a lot of all of our time just because we're having a lot of engagements on the cellphone side. Uh, you know, decide endpoint side. It's a very interesting time that we're living in because the changes are becoming more and more frequent and it's very hot, so adapt and make sure that you're leading that leading that wave. >> In preparing for this, I saw you in another video camera. Which one it was, but your quote was you know, they didn't create electricity by improving candles. Every line I'm gonna steal it. I'll give you credit. But as you look back, I mean, I don't think most people really grown to the step function. Five g, you know, and they talk about five senior fun. It's not about your phone. It says this is the first kind of network built four machines. That's right. Machine data, the speed machine data and the quantity of Mr Sheen data. As you sit back, What kind of reflectively Again? You've been in this business for a while and you look at five G. You're sitting around talking to your to your friends at a party. So maybe some family members aren't in the business. How do you How do you tell them what this means? I mean, what are people not really seeing when they're just thinking it's just gonna be a handset upgrade there, completely missing the boat? >> Yeah, I think for the for the regular consumer, they just think it's another handset. You know, I went from three G's to 40 year. I got I saw bump in speed, and, you know, uh, some handset manufacturers are actually advertising five G capable handsets. So I'm just going to be out by another cell phone behind the curtain under the hurt. There's this massive infrastructure overhaul that a lot of service providers are going through. And it's scary because I would say that a lot of them are not necessarily prepared. The investment that's pouring in is staggering. The help that they need is one area that we're trying to accommodate because the end cell towers are being replaced. The end devices are being replaced. The data centers are being upgraded. Small South sites, you know, Um, there's there's, uh how do you provide coverage? What is the killer use case? Most likely is probably gonna be manufacturing just because it's, as you said mission to make mission machine learning Well, that's your machine to mission communication. That's where the connected hospitals connected. Manufacturing will come into play, and it's just all this machine machine communication, um, generating vast amounts of data and that goes ties back to that each computing where the edge is generating the data. But you then send some of that data not all of it, but some of that data to a centralized cloud and you develop essentially machine learning algorithms, which you then push back to the edge. The edge becomes a more intelligent and we get better productivity. But it's all machine to machine communication that, you know, I would say that more of the most of the five communication is gonna be much information communication. Some small portion will be the consumers just face timing or messaging and streaming. But that's gonna be there exactly. Exactly. That's going to change. I'm of course, we'll see other changes in our day to day lives. You know, a couple of companies attempted live gaming on the cloud in the >> past. It didn't really work out just because the network latency was not there. But we'll see that, too, and was seeing some of the products coming out from the lecture of Google into the company's where they're trying to push gaming to be in the cloud. It's something that we were not really successful in the past, so those are things that I think consumers will see Maur in their day to day lives. But the bigger impact is gonna be for the for the enterprise >> or jet. Thanks for ah, for taking some time and sharing your insight. You know, you guys get to see a lot of stuff. You've been in the industry for a while. You get to test all the new equipment that they're building. So you guys have a really interesting captaincy toe watches developments. Really exciting times. >> Thank you for inviting us. Great to be here. >> All right, Easier. Jeff. Jeff, you're watching the Cube. Where? Cube studios and fellow out there. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.